00:01:08 <zid> Merry july everybody
00:01:56 <FireFly> Meh, just because you're GMT
00:02:12 <FireFly> I've been in july for a while now
00:02:27 <zid> GMT aka UTC? :P
00:02:33 <zid> UNIVERSAL JULY BITCH
00:02:57 <ehird> UNIVERSAL JULY! It's July EVERYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE!
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00:32:27 <pikhq> So, I tried switching back to KDE for a bit...
00:32:46 <pikhq> And nearly vomited. So slow...
00:37:08 <ehird> pikhq: ...Your computer sucks.
00:37:10 <ehird> 10:32:08 <Associat0r> FYI #proglangdesign #ltu
00:37:23 * ehird looks at first channel
00:37:47 * ehird looks at other channel
00:37:49 <ehird> Almost identicaaaaaaaal.
00:38:01 <ehird> 10:56:12 <ais523> we had a moon person in here a while ago
00:38:01 <ehird> 10:56:18 <ais523> at least, someone who thought they were
00:38:06 <ehird> for values of a while = two days ago, iirc
00:41:23 <ehird> 12:52:47 <pikhq> C is awful. Except for all the other systems programming languages out there. :P
00:41:36 <ehird> 12:53:31 <Deewiant> Zuu!
00:41:36 <ehird> 12:53:34 <Deewiant> Wtf are you doing here :-P
00:41:39 <ehird> oh do you know who he is?
00:43:03 <ehird> 12:55:04 <zid> take haskell, i'm sure it's great 12:55:11 <zid> if you like to masturbate to language design
00:43:06 * ehird kicks zid to death.
00:43:12 <ehird> 12:55:28 <zid> but is it.. useful?
00:43:18 * ehird mangles zid's brain to information-theoretic death.
00:43:29 <ehird> No revival for you, bitch!
00:48:20 <ehird> 12:55:52 <zid> I've never seen anything written in haskhell, just people teling me how awesome something would be when written in haskell
00:48:25 <ehird> was "haskhell" intentional?
00:49:30 <ehird> #ltu: WE'RE TOO EDGY FOR JUST A WEBLOG
00:49:41 <ehird> ALSO ABBREVIATIONS RULE
00:51:16 * pikhq needs a good GUI environment.
00:51:39 <pikhq> Or just nuke X from orbit.
00:51:45 <pikhq> I could tolerate that.
00:51:46 <ehird> 12:58:05 <pikhq> Zuu: Go to #c++.
00:51:52 <Zuu> me me me me!
00:51:54 <ehird> but #c++ has goedi!
00:51:57 <ehird> It's written in Haskell!
00:51:59 <Zuu> Oh noes, not C++
00:52:14 <Zuu> But geordi is poo :<
00:52:22 <ehird> pikhq: Step 1. Get OS X's GUI source leaked. Step 2. Spend hours porting to Linux.
00:52:32 <ehird> Step 4. I AM IN A JAIL CELL CALLED "HAMLET"
00:52:36 <ehird> WASHING NASAL DEMONS
00:52:37 * Zuu wonders if ehird is a bottie
00:52:50 <ehird> Zuu: Nay! I am but a.
00:53:25 * Zuu cuddles ehird ^^
00:53:34 <pikhq> ehird: Not good enough.
00:53:43 <ehird> Zuu: Forsooth! Make tenners to be like a flower; but no?
00:53:48 <pikhq> I'm starting to think current GUI metaphors are t3h suck.
00:54:03 <pikhq> Or maybe just Plan 9 from Userspace.
00:54:05 <ehird> Also, they are; but there's nothing above concept-stage in anything else.
00:54:06 <Zuu> ehird, is that an advanced way to ask if i'll marry you?
00:54:13 <ehird> OS X at least makes using the current rubbish model OK
00:54:21 <ehird> Zuu: No; 'tis but a languishing swamp demon.
00:54:36 <ehird> pikhq: Naw, not userspace. You need the ubiquitous files and toolset to take advantage of p9's ui.
00:54:50 * Zuu has a hard time interpreting ehird's eso-english
00:54:54 <pikhq> About the only alternative that's well-developed is tiling window managers. ... And those are niche at best.
00:55:06 <ehird> Also they're not very ergonomic.
00:55:25 <ehird> Zuu: But flies are like a sun, and every solar system calls their star sun, just like every base calls theirs 10, because you can fly a lot, see?
00:56:08 * Zuu steals all ehird's poems and eats them :>
00:56:30 <ehird> Zuu: Eating disallowed; a cake perhaps barred from judging murder in case of a fire/
00:56:32 <Zuu> Enough of the nonsense :)
00:57:15 <Zuu> My brain gets overloaded with all this weird sentence compositions
00:57:54 * Zuu is allergic to incomprehensible stuff
00:58:55 <ehird> Zuu: Sentences mutate, morphed gluttery flobs in your gut. Only then may the window look at itself, but you know all about 'pataphysics, so essentially it's combinatorics, a bun, a death, and two and a half pennies for dinner.
00:59:32 * Zuu pat pats ehird :)
01:00:14 <ehird> Zuu: But what most people don't realise is that Cuil is a legitimate search engine of panties.
01:00:43 <Zuu> While that does sound slightly interresting, i wonder if it means the same to you as it does to me
01:02:08 <ehird> Zuu: Questions are a folly of multitude; mayhaps if the hunter-gatherers were astronauts instead we could get some cold porridge.
01:04:42 <ehird> Zuu: …insipid people are usually the target of such things, but I am wont to ask if we have not been misunderestimating such potential value as to move into a framework beyond atoms, particles and suchlike: maybe if we abandoned these antediluvian concepts, it would be an eclipsing bonanza for all who might attend (although I note that some who attend would not be pleased, as some people can find fault in anything; but I digress).
01:05:12 <Zuu> im afraid i dont care to read that :/
01:05:19 <Asztal> quick, find a cylon base ship and plug him in
01:05:41 <Zuu> i wont understand 50% of it anuways, and i dont care to rape a dictionary for that sole purpose
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01:07:51 <ehird> Zuu: Hellfire! Brimstone! My, my, we've been busy lately; this Hell business sure seems Popular — with a capital P, you understand (am I pompous if I extend this capital-p starting concept to "capital punishment"? I hope not, for I am about to do so) — but would you be so fine as to make sure that only those who die get here? Specifically, those doing bad deeds; capital punishment may be a good indicator. It's nice, and all, and I am, after all, God,
01:07:53 <ehird> so I would know, but I don't really like how you're picking living people from Earth. It kind of disturbs their faith in me. But, really, good work, just keep it for the dead people, okay?
01:08:30 <Zuu> He's unstoppable, he must be a bot
01:09:13 <ehird> Zuu: Ha! Fathom such a prithee concept, but I doubt you could or couldn't depending on the weather; generally data dependencies condition on something much more uninteresting and/or valuable. I guess that's just how the world works on Tuesdays.
01:10:28 <Zuu> a bot on the left half of the world map
01:11:23 <ehird> Zuu: I tend to disregard such concepts; they are for the old world, and I, why I am of the New World! Honey, milk, you know the deal! I'm like a rapping, gangsta, Hitler God.
01:12:05 <Asztal> fungot: do you agree? speak your mind!
01:12:06 <fungot> Asztal: feed it birth control pills and water once a month, but perhaps it is something medical
01:13:31 <ehird> That's a weird diet.
01:13:37 <ehird> ...Hey, fungot snapped me out of that.
01:13:38 <fungot> ehird: " go study some cs you idiot"... ping timeout"
01:17:11 <zid> lament: no, never been, what is it?
01:19:24 <ehird> zid: it has icky non-practical masturbatory language design people from lambda-the-ultimate.org
01:19:28 <ehird> they like haskell. and scheme.
01:19:34 <ehird> (zid dies of disgust)
01:19:49 <zid> I bet the smug just OOOZES
01:19:52 <zid> you could bottle it
01:22:03 <ehird> this channel is about esoteric programming languages —
01:22:06 <ehird> deliberately unusable ones
01:22:10 <ehird> deliberately "masturbatory"
01:22:17 <ehird> deliberately exploring the edges of programming language design —
01:22:25 <ehird> why are you here if you have such a desperate phobia of such things?
01:22:40 <zid> if befunge is 'exploring the edges of programming language design' then damn
01:23:14 <zid> It's pointless for pointless sake, not pointless pretending to not be
01:23:28 <zid> they're the opposite of the spectrum
01:24:16 <ehird> because befunge is the only esolang?
01:24:33 <ehird> you're just an idiot obsessed with what's popular; a language is only viable if everyone else uses it too, QED
01:24:39 <zid> you're saying haskell and brainfuck serve the same goal?
01:24:42 <ehird> haskell is masturbatory bullshit because in my bubble i don't hear anyone using it
01:24:50 <ehird> zid: i never said that
01:25:01 <zid> then why couldn't one like brainfuck but not like haskell
01:25:43 <ehird> alas the point went over your head utterly.
01:25:56 <zid> You'll have to dumb it down a bit then
01:29:00 <GregorR> I shall now interrupt this ridiculous conversation with a monologue from Oedipus Tyrannus, by Sophocles.
01:29:16 <GregorR> I am the son of Polybus, who reigns at Corinth, and the Dorian Merope his queen; there long I held the foremost rank, honoured and happy, when a strange event (for strange it was, though little meriting the deep concern I felt) alarmed me much:
01:29:18 <ehird> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/03bb/index.htm
01:29:33 <GregorR> A drunken reveller at a feast proclaimed that I was only the supposed son or Corinth's king. Scarce could I bear that day the vile reproach. The next, I sought my parents and asked of them the truth; they too, enraged, resented much the base indignity.
01:30:06 <zid> GregorR: Sorry, I was busy giggling and being told i'm obsessed with what's popular after admitting I use mainly C and befunge :P
01:30:06 <GregorR> I liked their tender warmth, but still I felt a secret anguish, and, unknown to them, sought out the Pythian oracle. In vain. Touching my parents nothing could I learn; but dreadful were the miseries it denounced against me. 'Twas my fate, Apollo said, to wed my mother, to produce a race accursed and abhorred; and last, to slay my father who begat me.
01:30:09 <zid> night guys
01:30:23 <nooga> befunge is fun, but not brilliant
01:30:25 <ehird> Uhh, C isn't popular?
01:30:40 <GregorR> Sad decree! Lest I should e'er fulfil the dire prediction, instant I fled from Corinth, by the stars guiding my hapless journey to the place where thou report'st this wretched king was slain. But I will tell thee the whole truth. At length
01:30:41 <GregorR> I came to where the three ways meet, when, lo! A herald, with another man like him whom thou describ'st, and in a chariot, met me.
01:31:13 <GregorR> Both strove with violence to drive me back; enraged, I struck the charioteer, when straight, as I advanced, the old man saw, and twice smote me o' th' head, but dearly soon repaid the insult on me; from his chariot rolled prone on the earth, beneath my staff he fell, and instantly expired!
01:31:27 <GregorR> Are we done yet, can I stop this :P
01:31:49 <ehird> Yes, O Wise GregorR, decreer of reasonability and obnoxious floods to end.
01:35:26 * Zuu gives nooga some icecream
01:37:36 * Zuu find it strange that everyone in here seem to be asking that question
01:39:18 <Zuu> But alright: I'm me, Mostly human, Alive, Awake, Bored and wondering
01:39:38 <Zuu> now, what are you nooga ?
01:39:58 <Zuu> except from in need of bread
01:40:08 <Zuu> .. and icecream onyour face
01:40:23 <Zuu> .. sorry, didnt know where else to put it
01:41:46 <nooga> > let n = pi in foldl (+) 0 (zipWith (\x y -> y*n**x/(product[1..x])) [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1]))
01:41:55 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
01:43:00 <nooga> > let n = pi in foldl (+) [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] cycle [1,-1]]
01:43:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[b]'
01:43:23 <nooga> > let n = pi in foldl (+) 0 [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
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01:44:29 <nooga> i thought that lambdabot is bulletproof
01:46:23 <nooga> > let n = pi in foldl (+) 0 [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
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02:24:39 <oerjan> <ehird> Note the "<oerjan>" part; I was replying to him. <-- requoting lines with "<--" in them is darn confusing...
02:24:54 <oerjan> (that <-- was mine btw)
02:30:25 * oerjan hates it when he clicks somewhere in a slowly loading browser window to ensure it gets proper focus, and at that moment an ad shows up just there, outside the main frame
02:31:45 <GregorR> Ads? Web pages have ads? Oh yeah, I remember those.
02:32:13 <oerjan> i don't mind ads as long as they don't sneak up on me unwittingly :D
02:33:50 <pikhq> Ads? Web pages have ads? Whoa.
02:34:02 <nooga> > let n = pi/2 in (foldl (+) 0 . take 5) [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:34:06 <pikhq> I thought I was installing Adblock out of habit.
02:34:16 <nooga> WHERE IS LAMBDABOT?!?!!
02:34:18 <oerjan> nooga: no lambdabot :(
02:34:31 <GregorR> !haskell let n = pi/2 in (foldl (+) 0 . take 5) [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:34:46 <oerjan> nooga: in #haskell usually. btw you can private message it
02:34:51 <nooga> nooga: > let n = pi in foldl (+) 0 [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:34:51 <nooga> 02:43 lambdabot has left IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:35:07 <oerjan> nooga: it only came here by special request
02:35:38 <oerjan> also !haskell is fine as long as you only use Prelude functions, otherwise you'll need some imports
02:36:03 <pikhq> !haskell mport Data.List;
02:36:09 <pikhq> I WAS EDITING THAT.
02:37:32 <oerjan> nooga: btw i'm pretty sure sum = foldl (+) 0, precisely.
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02:38:30 <nooga> !haskell let n = pi/2 in abs $ sin n - (sum . take 15) [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:38:42 <nooga> pikhq: small difference
02:38:57 <nooga> !haskell let n = pi/2 in (sum . take 15) [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:39:21 <nooga> pikhq: nooga: Wrong.
02:40:27 <nooga> i thought the result is wrong
02:42:36 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List;main=print$let n = pi/2 in take 15 . scanl (+) 0 [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:43:42 <oerjan> what the heck would be wrong with the syntax there...
02:44:25 <oerjan> !haskell let n = pi/2 in take 15 . scanl (+) 0 [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:44:45 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List;main=print$let n = pi/2 in take 15 $ scanl (+) 0 [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:44:48 <EgoBot> [0.0,1.5707963267948966,0.9248322292886504,1.0045248555348174,0.9998431013994987,1.0000035425842861,0.999999943741051,1.0000000006627803,0.9999999999939768,1.0000000000000437,1.0,1.0000000000000002,1.0000000000000002,1.0000000000000002,1.0000000000000002]
02:45:04 <oerjan> too bad scanl is one of the non-Prelude functions
02:45:33 <oerjan> heh it gives 1.0 exactly for one moment
02:47:20 * oerjan facepalms at that error message
02:47:36 <oerjan> !haskell main=print scanl
02:47:55 <oerjan> it seems scanl is Prelude anyhow
02:48:37 <oerjan> !haskell let n = pi/2 in take 15 $ scanl (+) 0 [y*n**x/(product[1..x]) | (x,y) <- zip [1,3..] (cycle [1,-1])]
02:48:39 <EgoBot> [0.0,1.5707963267948966,0.9248322292886504,1.0045248555348174,0.9998431013994987,1.0000035425842861,0.999999943741051,1.0000000006627803,0.9999999999939768,1.0000000000000437,1.0,1.0000000000000002,1.0000000000000002,1.0000000000000002,1.0000000000000002]
02:50:05 <oerjan> apparently that line _really_ messes up something X/
02:51:07 <pikhq> !haskell main=main
02:51:20 <oerjan> finally it actually gave the sensible error
02:51:46 <oerjan> main=main should just be an infinite loop
02:54:01 <GregorR> Let's see how little Haskell I remember ...
02:54:15 <GregorR> !haskell main=putStr "Hello" >>= main
02:54:39 <pikhq> !haskell main=putStr "Hello" >> main
02:54:48 <GregorR> Oh yeah, doesn't have input...
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02:54:58 <oerjan> i'm sure that'll hit EgoBot's not-doing-anything-without-a-return "feature"
02:55:36 <GregorR> If it flushed output, it'd work *shrugs*
02:55:40 <pikhq> >>= is Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b), IIRC.
02:56:06 <pikhq> >>= is Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b.
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12:09:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant and/or fizzie: what is the best way to make a C style switch in befuge? The range is continuous and rather small (7 different cases).
12:09:17 <AnMaster> all I can think of are rather bulky variants
12:09:18 <fizzie> The jump table, I guess.
12:09:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh with j you mean? Hm could work
12:10:07 <fizzie> Just the arithmetics to move the range to [0, 6] and then something like >... jvvvvvvv with the different cases below that.
12:10:09 <AnMaster> someone should make a page with befunge idioms. Like >:#,_ and such
12:10:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is already in the range 0-6
12:10:32 <fizzie> Well, that's even easier then.
12:10:44 <AnMaster> though, it would be better to make it vertical in this case
12:10:59 <fizzie> That's up to you, of course.
12:12:38 <fizzie> There's at least two jump tables in fungot; one is the very visible triangle a bit before the middle part (there's not really a reason to have a triangle there except that it looks nice -- the "actions" themselves could be vertical just fine) and one vertically oriented one in the BF "bytecode" interpreter a bit after the "PROG EXECS:" comment.
12:12:38 <fungot> fizzie: people like christopher rhodes effectively kill off hope for compilation to efficient code") gives me an error
12:14:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Since it's continuous, j.
12:15:03 <Deewiant> If it's not, binary search with w.
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12:28:33 <fizzie> Ooh, that sounds nice. Maybe I should've used that instead of the if-elseif-elseif-else chain I have in fungot's Underload interp.
12:28:34 <fungot> fizzie:))) would be more accurate to say that
12:33:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: See, you shouldn't be so hostile against w. :-P
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12:55:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, w would make a nicely visual search tree too!
12:56:19 <AnMaster> I mean, I know the stuff about tree rotations and such, but I don't remember how you decide when to rotate a tree or not
12:56:58 <Deewiant> You just write it in a balanced way from the start :-P
12:58:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah I meant, how do you figure out how to make it a balanced tree.
12:59:30 <Deewiant> You have all the data from the start, so split it evenly both ways..
12:59:35 <AnMaster> iirc fizzie is hostile against most befunge98 things except fingerprints?
13:08:54 <fizzie> That is mostly true, yes.
13:09:42 <fizzie> Although I'm not sure "hostile" is entirely the correct word. I don't carry a "DOWN WITH HERETIC FUNGE-98"/"GOD HATES FUNGE-98" signs around, for example.
13:19:36 <Asztal> you should, I'd like to see the reactions
13:20:40 <AnMaster> Asztal, something like "what is that?"
13:21:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, you use i and o in fungot too at least
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13:21:01 <fungot> AnMaster: do you got anything written down, i have to do is collect everything into a vector?
13:24:09 <fizzie> Also [a-f], j. '. But not any of [];nqrsuwxyz{} I think. Maybe k.
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13:26:50 <fizzie> "; considered harmful", heh.
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13:37:36 <zid> ; are pretty deadly in nethack
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16:02:41 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access bin: No such file or directory
16:03:47 <oerjan> !sh echo interps/ghc/*
16:04:48 <oerjan> !sh ls -l interps/ghc/*
16:04:49 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: interps/ghc/runghc: Function not implemented
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16:20:42 <Deewiant> ehird: I'm amused by how your flame at Harrop has already got 5 points
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17:59:31 * oerjan considers adding Harrop's disliked posts to his favorites. Well, almost.
18:32:52 <AnMaster> is there any functional language without garbage collectionj
18:35:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: John D. Harrop, the person ehird just flamed on reddit. Shameless ocaml/F# advertiser iiuc
18:36:27 <oerjan> basically my impression was he seems to downvote every _other_ PL discussion than his favorite languages, so the top of the list was an interesting haskell post i had missed :D
18:38:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: functional language without garbage collection makes only a little sense, since free use of functional idioms means object lifetimes quickly become undecidable without it.
18:39:44 <oerjan> although there are implementations that attempt to minimize gc with things like region inference
18:40:34 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: functional language without garbage collection makes only a little sense, since free use of functional idioms means object lifetimes quickly become undecidable without it. <-- I'm well aware of this
18:40:42 <AnMaster> which is why I wondered if there is a GC free one
18:41:06 <AnMaster> one with completely manual memory management for the functional bits
18:41:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, source code compatible?
18:42:44 <oerjan> since it adds support for .NET types
18:42:56 <oerjan> but i know little more about F#
18:43:38 <oerjan> oh i vaguely recall it also removes functors, or something like that
18:45:07 <pikhq> I could've sworn that garbage collecting was straight-up required for functional programming?
18:45:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, you could possibly figure out some stuff will be dead by end of function and thus compile it into an allocation on the stack instead
18:46:12 <AnMaster> I would be surprised if at least ghc and ocaml didn't do that sort of stuff.
18:46:17 <pikhq> I *guess* if you just assumed naught but lambdas you could maybe do it...
18:46:47 <oerjan> er i'm pretty sure lambdas are the source of the problem, actually, or closures rather
18:47:08 <AnMaster> returning a function definitely can cause problems yeah
18:47:31 <AnMaster> well yeah closure to be specific
18:47:37 <pikhq> Closures? Who said anything about closures?
18:47:42 <AnMaster> you could of course return a function pointer without problems
18:47:47 <pikhq> That's not a lambda.
18:47:53 <oerjan> pikhq: lambda expressions are closures in their purest form
18:48:38 <AnMaster> so evaulating lambda calculus requires a GC?
18:48:48 <pikhq> Oh, right. Closures. Why did I think 'continuation' when I saw that? XD
18:49:35 <oerjan> although reference counting suffices. or you could copy the next step somewhere... but that would be inefficient.
18:51:39 <oerjan> "zealot" was the word i couldn't remember when telling who harrop was
18:53:15 <oerjan> iirc he has admitted to willfully using disruptive postings to promote his services
18:53:47 <oerjan> so it's not just a strong opinion, but essentially commercial spamming
18:56:48 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Oh, right. Closures. Why did I think 'continuation' when I saw that? XD <-- you aren't alone to confuse them...
18:57:25 <oerjan> well in a channel where people cannot distinguish GregorR and Gracenotes ...
18:57:51 <GregorR-L> I have precedence over 'Gr' because it's my ACTUAL, HUMAN NAME :P
18:58:16 <oerjan> his parents were weird
18:58:16 <GregorR-L> I have precedence over 'Gr' because it's /the beginning of/ my ACTUAL, HUMAN NAME :P
18:58:30 <GregorR-L> Well, it is in that it's my first and last initials: GR :P
18:58:30 <pikhq> What's with the egorR-L? Crappy last name or something?
18:58:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, iirc I heard of someone known as "Grace", and I can't see why you can't have "Notes" as a family name.
18:58:48 <AnMaster> Considering how many strange family names there are
18:58:51 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Sure. But Gracenotes is, IIRC, male :P
18:59:01 <GregorR-L> (Whereas "Grace" is a female name)
18:59:07 <FireFly> Awesome, I want a dash in my last name too
18:59:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: BTW, you think family names here are weird, wait till you check out Japanese ones.
18:59:25 <GregorR-L> FireFly: Nonono, it's hyphenated. My dad's last name is egorR, my mom's is L
18:59:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, I wouldn't know what they mean
18:59:33 <pikhq> Most of them were invented in the late 1800s.
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19:58:37 <AnMaster> why is lambda in scheme called that?
20:01:27 <AnMaster> it isn't *that* closely related to lambda as far I understand?
20:14:47 <augur> anmaster: sure it is
20:15:00 <augur> its just an n-ary lambda, thats all.
20:28:43 * AnMaster found some music that he thinks ehird will like
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20:43:47 <AnMaster> sourceforge was redesigned again?
20:49:32 <fizzie> There was that email about it.
20:49:37 <GregorR-L> I jumped ship from Sourceforge a long time ago.
20:49:50 <GregorR-L> It's soooo terrible right now (or maybe this latest redesign was an improvement?)
20:50:24 <fizzie> "On Tuesday 2009-06-30 at 16:00 UTC, we will be testing the first phase of our new consumer (user) pages." Then they'll revert it, and then launch on Wednesday 2009-07-01. I guess this might be the actual launch now.
20:50:47 <fizzie> What they say they're doing is: "We have received feedback from you and your fellow project administrators that we need an easier path for users to download your software."
20:51:03 <GregorR-L> There's a giant green "Download now!" button.
20:51:17 <fizzie> Well, couldn't be much easier than that!
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21:00:10 <pikhq> Sourceforge redesigned *again*?
21:00:32 <pikhq> Must've taken another hit of the Enterprise.
21:06:05 <augur> anmaster: you think i go on sourceforge?
21:06:56 <pikhq> That is an amusing way of compiling C to JVM...
21:07:08 <pikhq> Have GCC compile to MIPS. Compile MIPS to JVM.
21:07:29 <augur> AnMaster: i do not visit sourceforge.
21:07:31 <AnMaster> augur, you generally end up having to download some project from there every now and then
21:08:09 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> There's a giant green "Download now!" button. <--- that was there before?
21:08:10 <augur> their new site makes me thing: crappy file hosting site/url squatter
21:08:33 <AnMaster> it looks like a mix between that and github
21:09:12 <AnMaster> launchpad has keept almost the same design for years now
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22:14:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: cfunge fails for files with mac line endings
22:17:51 <GregorR> Both metaphorically and quite literally.
22:18:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you filebin the file in question
22:18:46 <AnMaster> because I tested it on mycology converted to CR line endings
22:19:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, pastebin won't work, they mangle
22:19:44 <AnMaster> or upload with scp or similiar
22:20:56 <Deewiant> Why the fuck would I filebin that
22:21:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is no line ending at all in that you pasted
22:21:18 <Deewiant> It's a line of text, it ends in a newline
22:21:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is an infinite loop?
22:22:03 <AnMaster> or at least it never seems to end here
22:22:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Your loader infinite loops.
22:22:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was using LF line endings here to test it...
22:22:37 <AnMaster> Stack has 1 elements, top 5 (or less) elements:
22:22:43 <Deewiant> Oh, you're right, that one doesn't trigger it :-(
22:23:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, closing bug as INVALID
22:23:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Shut up, I told you the case was flawed
22:23:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, please reopen if you have a working test case
22:24:40 <AnMaster> infinite loop with LF as expected
22:25:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm sorry, I can't reproduce, I get an infinite loop in the program according to the trace. Not in the loader
22:25:22 <AnMaster> and that infinite loop is expected
22:25:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's not the loader, I misspoke. The trace says that the v never finds the <.
22:25:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure you are actually using the last trunk
22:26:16 <Deewiant> Given that I updated it fifteen minutes ago... yes
22:26:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, please pastebin output of ./cfunge -v
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22:26:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: zsh: no such file or directory: ./cfunge
22:27:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, relevant path then
22:28:06 <Deewiant> http://www.pastie.org/private/sxj29wgewpmqvhfdzbahja
22:28:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what bit was the wrong uname btw?
22:29:13 <Deewiant> The bit that has the uname -r.
22:29:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mhm. Since I use cmake to figure it out I guess I forgot to account for cmake caching the result of that check
22:30:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, okay, can reproduce it now. *debugs
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22:37:41 <fizzie> That looks like four added lines to me!
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23:31:39 * ehird notices people mentioning his flame in the backlog. Gee, I'm famous.
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23:33:30 <ehird> 06:00 bsmntbombdood: literally every link in /r/jailbait is purple :(
23:33:30 <ehird> 06:01 bsmntbombdood: ...wrong channel
23:34:39 <ehird> 17:35 oerjan: AnMaster: John D. Harrop, the person ehird just flamed on reddit. Shameless ocaml/F# advertiser iiuc
23:34:43 <ehird> he does it — and he has said this —
23:34:47 <ehird> to generate business for his company
23:34:52 <ehird> in his deluded, fuckheaded world, this actually works.
23:34:58 <ehird> in the real one, he's just an intolerable idiot
23:35:27 <AnMaster> ehird, why don't they ban him?
23:36:24 <ehird> 19:28 AnMaster found some music that he thinks ehird will like
23:36:40 <ehird> 19:43 AnMaster: sourceforge was redesigned again?
23:36:41 <ehird> 19:44 AnMaster: what the hell
23:36:43 <ehird> looks like github.
23:37:41 <AnMaster> <augur> their new site makes me thing: crappy file hosting site/url squatter
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23:38:33 <AnMaster> ehird, https://freedroid.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/freedroid/sound/music/Bleostrada.ogg <-- do you like it?
23:40:37 <ehird> 23:34 AnMaster: ehird, so very wrong channel // yeah, I believe that was destined for #reddit
23:40:51 <ehird> 23:35 AnMaster: ehird, why don't they ban him? // who? he's everywhere
23:40:59 <ehird> 23:37 AnMaster: :D // shush, someone else said github too
23:41:07 <ehird> i thought squatter at first
23:41:13 <ehird> i'll listen in a sec.
23:41:33 <AnMaster> ehird, prediction: in one year's time, it will be big news if a week passes without a redesign of sourceforge
23:41:41 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8xaas/how_did_i_not_find_this_language_years_ago/c0aq1g9, btw, is his comment and my flame
23:41:48 <ehird> "colostomy bag" now ranks among my favourite insults
23:42:55 <ehird> wow, OCaml for Scientists actually costs £85
23:43:01 <ehird> i didn't realise it was _that_ expensive
23:44:42 <ehird> AnMaster: downloading that thar ogg
23:45:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> wow, OCaml for Scientists actually costs £85 <--?
23:45:32 <ehird> Jon Harrop's shitty book.
23:45:45 <ehird> £85 is a ridiculous price; most programming books are like £30
23:47:28 <ehird> AnMaster: that song is ok. i mean, i like the basic style, but it's still of typical game music quality
23:47:35 <ehird> s/song/track/ for accuracy
23:47:49 <AnMaster> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8xaas/how_did_i_not_find_this_language_years_ago/ <-- what do you think about the actual thing it links to?
23:48:08 <ehird> it's a rather typical i-love-lisp post. not particularly interesting.
23:48:09 <AnMaster> I never found scheme and pascal similar...
23:48:21 <ehird> they are, in a perverse way
23:48:38 <ehird> sure. pascal's how to do it the wrong way ;-)
23:48:57 <ehird> [though original pascal, really, wasn't all that bad a language]
23:49:15 <AnMaster> ehird, delphi is pascal gone really really bad
23:49:24 <AnMaster> but I coded in other pascal variants too
23:49:29 <ehird> delphi is really .awful
23:49:39 <ehird> i need to learn to write sentences linearly
23:49:55 <ehird> it's especially annoying on the iphone
23:50:00 <ehird> i wrote that flame on it and it took like 3 minutes
23:50:07 <ehird> constantly trying to reposition the cursor
23:51:01 <ehird> 2009 is a fun year for dying.
23:51:06 <ehird> augur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Malden
23:51:15 <ehird> yeah i wkipedi-ae-d it.
23:51:20 <augur> man what i dont even know this guy
23:51:34 <ehird> IT'S OKAY, BILLY MAYS IS MORE IMPORTANT
23:51:44 <GregorR> We're all too young to have known Karl Malden :P
23:51:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> i need to learn to write sentences linearly <-- How do you write them then
23:51:52 <GregorR> Stop dying, celebrities! STOP IT!
23:51:58 <GregorR> If I was a celebrity, I'd be worried right now.
23:52:04 <augur> billy mays is so more important
23:52:09 <AnMaster> <GregorR> RIP Karl Malden <GregorR> STOP DYING, CELEBRITIES <-- should I know who this is?
23:52:09 <ehird> AnMaster: I write a basic outline or the whole thing if it's simple enough, then bat around correcting errors and rewriting and adding and removing
23:52:30 <GregorR> As a Swede less than 50 years old, no :P
23:52:43 <augur> what he does is, he constructs the semantic content of the sentence in semi-graph form
23:53:10 <augur> then he applies a transformation algorithm that linearizes the graph, producing a set of potential sentences
23:53:10 <ehird> augur: i'm not sure that will help :)
23:53:25 <AnMaster> augur, that makes perfect sense
23:53:26 <augur> and then he selects among them, choosing the one that is most pragmatically effective
23:53:46 <augur> it takes ehird about three and a half hours to construct each sentence
23:53:52 <ehird> PATRICK SWAYZE DIED
23:54:02 <ehird> ..................
23:54:10 <ehird> He's a guy who's dead.
23:54:26 <ehird> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((goodnight sweet prince))))))))))))))))
23:54:28 <augur> its not much of a surprise
23:54:33 <augur> since he had serious cancer
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23:55:02 <AnMaster> ehird, wikipedia says he is alive?
23:55:23 <augur> anmaster: if he JUST died
23:55:51 * GregorR can find no evidence to support this observation.
23:56:11 <ehird> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Goodnight_Sweet_Prince
23:56:14 <augur> GregorR: if he JUST died
23:56:25 <ehird> augur: ...then I wouldn't know about it.
23:56:26 <GregorR> augur: And what, ehird is his buddy? :P
23:56:31 <augur> ehird: but you might!
23:56:42 <augur> the rumor mill is mysterious
23:58:41 <ehird> "Terms of use: no crawlers, no wget, no site copying, use of pictures, movies and text only with permission. No excessive rss feed checking."
23:58:45 <ehird> ↑ rms cannot visit this site.
23:59:49 <ehird> augur: stallman browses the web by sending email to a daemon which then wgets the page in batch mode and emails it back to him.
00:00:14 <augur> he's on the wrong drugs, man
00:00:19 <GregorR> Sounds like bullshit to me.
00:00:27 <ehird> GregorR: http://lwn.net/Articles/262570/
00:00:34 <ehird> For values of bullshit equal to "rms said it".
00:00:40 <ehird> It is very efficient use of his time.
00:01:11 <augur> im sure what he means is
00:01:14 <augur> he doesnt browse the web
00:01:19 <augur> which frees up a lot of his time
00:01:20 <ehird> augur: Just read it, man.
00:01:38 <augur> theres no way he browses the web like normal people do, given that.
00:02:46 <augur> no getting lost in wikipedia's web of links
00:02:54 <ehird> this much is very obvious
00:03:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you think about that music?
00:04:01 <ehird> 23:47 ehird: AnMaster: that song is ok. i mean, i like the basic style, but it's still of typical game music quality
00:04:02 <ehird> 23:47 ehird: s/song/track/ for accuracy
00:04:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Might wanna expand that backlog.
00:04:17 <ehird> You DID say something the line after...
00:04:33 <ehird> "Even functions are functions! I invented this concept. Just like Steve Jobs will one day." — why the lucky stiff
00:04:36 <ehird> http://hackety.org/potion/
00:07:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> "Even functions are functions! I invented this concept. Just like Steve Jobs will one day." — why the lucky stiff <-- I'm not sure what he means with "even functions are functions"... But depending on what he means I think that has already been done...
00:07:23 <ehird> It's called "a joke".
00:08:10 <ehird> '... probably Philip K. Dick'.
00:11:32 <AnMaster> yes I realised it was some joke
00:11:38 <ehird> AnMaster: That was an extra joke.
00:11:54 <ehird> The first joke was "Xs are objects! Ys are functions! EVEN FUNCTIONS ARE FUNCTIONS!"
00:12:06 <ehird> AnMaster: and Steve Jobs & Apple "invent" and "innovate" many things that they didn't
00:12:26 <ehird> For instance, the Macintosh was the first GUI — invented by Steve Jobs — modulo Xerox Parc, and the team of Apple engineers who designed it.
00:12:39 <ehird> (it=macintosh in the latter clause)
00:12:49 <AnMaster> ehird, strange, but just 10 minutes ago I was reading about Xerox Alto
00:13:17 <ehird> Well, I mentioned it yesterday, but huh.
00:13:26 <ehird> It was a nice system. I would like one.
00:15:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I knew of the "Xerox being first" thing for ages, but I was reading about the actual computer model. Haven't found any good screenshots of it's GUI yet...
00:15:45 <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/alto.html
00:16:03 <ehird> Protip: When in want of GUI stuff, check guidebookgallery.org and toastytech.
00:17:58 <ehird> Another example of Smalltalk running on a later model Alto or Star. Smalltalk provided its own GUI environment that included pop-up menus, windows, and images later referred to as icons.
00:17:59 <ehird> This is what Steve Jobs saw when he visited PARC. Apple went back and implemented a more robust system and added pull down menus, desktop drag and drop, the menu bar, the Apple system menu, and modern copy and paste.
00:18:02 <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/altost2.jpg
00:18:30 <ehird> [[Xerox had no interest in producing a general purpose computer. They were, and still are, a company who's products revolve around the creation and use of paper documents. They saw the general purpose computer, electronic documents, and electronic document transfer, as a potential threat to their existing business. ]]
00:18:33 <ehird> And this is why Xerox will die.
00:20:05 <ehird> AnMaster: have you seen sketchpad?
00:20:15 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the early vector thingy?
00:20:47 <ehird> Yeah; probably the one I got #1 on reddit for.
00:24:11 <AnMaster> that toastytech consistently writes "origional" instead of "original"... Strange
00:24:52 <ehird> Well, it is some 1996 site complete with "YARR IE 5 SUCKS" and animated gifs and the like: http://toastytech.com/
00:24:59 <ehird> GUI collection is very valuable though.
00:25:32 <ehird> Well, it's not unupdated.
00:25:40 <ehird> There's some youtube references and stuff.
00:26:01 <ehird> (The above sentence being proof that 's isn't "is" in a whole lot of cases)
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00:33:05 <ehird> "Intel's 34nm NAND SSDs launch in two weeks" —The Inquirer, 26 June
00:33:08 <ehird> please be true please be true
00:48:18 <ehird> WTF! Google result pages have quite a big margin now. Too much change. Do not want.
00:49:55 <pikhq> Intel also to launch 34nm CPUs in $SOON.
00:50:50 <ehird> pikhq: But these SSDs are going to be really gooooood prices.
00:51:19 <ehird> Estimated is 320GB for price of current 160GB (~$630), 160GB for price of current 80GB (~$320), 80GB for ~$150
00:51:51 <pikhq> That's approaching the prices I can see someone actually having one in their computer.
00:52:15 <pikhq> Granted, $150 could get you a terabyte with ease, but you're not exactly buying SSD for the storage density, now are you? ;)
00:52:50 <ehird> $150 is an awesome price for 2x snappiness increase in common operations.
00:56:03 <pikhq> It's a price point at which I can see someone not spending heaps of cash on their computer actually getting one, yes.
01:03:16 <ehird> ?djin (a -> b -> c) -> (a,b) -> c
01:03:20 <ehird> ?djinn (a -> b -> c) -> (a,b) -> c
01:03:25 <ehird> @djinn (a -> b -> c) -> (a,b) -> c
01:10:47 * ehird ports the #haskell discussion of UIs here.
01:10:54 <ehird> I wish it was feasible to make a good UI system.
01:25:53 * ehird nabs lost of ideas from Potion.
01:28:07 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_(computer_science) ← Ropes are awesome.
01:28:25 <ehird> They do everything strings do, with direct indexing just being a liiiittle bit slower in some cases.
01:28:33 <ehird> And then beat the shit out of them with sub-linear common operations.
01:28:48 <ehird> Constant concatenation (including prepending).
01:28:51 <ehird> Logarithmic substring.
01:28:54 <ehird> Logarithmic indexing.
01:29:03 <ehird> (indexing is amortized constant, though)
01:29:18 <ehird> (you could add flattening ropes into one node as part of your GC-esque task)
01:29:32 <ehird> I wonder if ropes would be good as vector replacements too
01:29:56 <pikhq> There's a trivial way to make a good UI system. First, invent the direct mind-computer interface.
01:30:14 <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
01:30:37 <ehird> pikhq: You still need an in-mind UI.
01:30:53 <ehird> But yeah, that's good and all, but I'm waiting for the singularity for that.
01:31:20 <GregorR> `addquote <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
01:31:22 <HackEgo> 21|<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
01:32:29 <ehird> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
01:32:31 <HackEgo> 22|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
01:32:51 <pikhq> ehird: Ah, Dinosaur Comics.
01:33:21 <ehird> pikhq: You're an expert on Olde English. What would you ask someone for if you were asking for themself?
01:34:23 <ehird> pikhq: But it's from the perspective of that agent.
01:34:27 <ehird> Just like "foo: name?"
01:34:39 <ehird> "foo: blah?" (is foo)
01:34:47 <pikhq> I am not sure what you're asking.
01:35:12 <ehird> pikhq: You can ask an agent (foo) for things like:
01:35:38 <ehird> pikhq: What would it be for the thing that makes it give you the agent (foo) in Olde-style English?
01:35:55 <pikhq> In this context? "Yourself".
01:36:14 <ehird> pikhq: But that's not olde!
01:36:24 <pikhq> (þou is the second person singular *familiar*, you covers all the rest.)
01:36:53 <pikhq> Fine, fine. "Yourſelf".
01:43:09 <ehird> New! Drag and drop
01:43:09 <ehird> Drag messages into labels and labels onto messages.
01:43:11 <ehird> Your labels moved up here
01:43:13 <ehird> To get you started, we put your most used labels here and hid the labels you use the least under "4 more".
01:43:22 <ehird> Don't do that shit to me.
01:43:24 <ehird> You're CHANGING STUFF.
01:43:46 <ehird> The four more aren't labels, just Starred, Chats, All Mail and Bin, so I guess I don't really use much stuff huh.
01:44:28 <ehird> pikhq: I wanted to as well, but wake me up when you have conversation-style layout, flexible labels instead of stupid folders, truly awesome search, ...
01:44:44 <ehird> I had a project but then I realised I was duplicating years of Google man effortt.
01:44:54 <ehird> Also writing desktop apps sucks like shit.
01:45:01 <pikhq> I have conversation-style layout...
01:45:15 <pikhq> Not labels or awesome search, sadly.
01:45:55 <ehird> pikhq: That means "the emails of a thread in order in one frame, instead of hitting the 'next' key all the time and having to bat backwards and forth."
01:46:34 <pikhq> Strictly speaking, I hit the "Page Down" key to go to another email. ... And to go down a page in my email.
01:47:07 <ehird> So what you're saying is threaded layout, not conversation layout.
01:47:09 <ehird> That's not what I said.
01:47:30 <pikhq> GOOGLE HAS AJAX AND WEB2.0 AND THATS EVIL.
01:48:04 <ehird> pikhq: I'm a less principled man than you in face of usability :P
01:48:47 <pikhq> I just have a radically different idea of usability than most.
01:48:54 <pikhq> ... Most of that idea involves telling programs to fuck off.
01:49:03 <ehird> Programs suck, documents rule.
01:49:15 <ehird> Unfortunately 90% of existing OSs disagree.
01:49:18 <ehird> I want to punch said OSs.
01:49:26 <ehird> (Smalltalk gets it, though.)
01:49:47 <pikhq> Smalltalk seems to get a lot right.
01:51:00 <ehird> pikhq: BTW, know how you said using Plan 9 was tempting? If you use nothing but Plan 9 on your personal desktop(s) for a month, and actively use the computer during this time, I'll, uh, do nothing but stand by and idly be amazed at how either you're (a) incredibly flexible with tools or (b) amazingly capable of just playing Hunt the Wumpus and using IRC via a socket for a month.
01:51:42 <ehird> nescience: That did a lot.
01:51:45 <nescience> supports multiple players who can therefore kill each other
01:52:09 <nescience> it's too much text to run on irc, it operates via dcc chat
01:52:19 <ehird> Welp, I can't use dcc.
01:52:25 <ehird> Client don't know none of dat shit.
01:52:37 <GregorR> nescience: ehird uses a shit client, ignore him.
01:53:02 <nescience> Client connects to Server and sends:
01:53:07 <nescience> When Server receives this, it sends:
01:53:07 <nescience> lemme see if i can remember the port
01:53:15 <ehird> 2966 says the dcc request
01:53:16 <nescience> Connection is established, users can now chat.
01:53:29 <nescience> that's the port for that dcc session
01:56:23 <ehird> % telnet 216.231.36.84 2421
01:56:23 <ehird> Trying 216.231.36.84...
01:56:24 <nescience> actually 2422 might be a telnet interface
01:56:26 <ehird> Guess it's not 2421.
01:58:58 <nescience> i think that's actually a telnet interface, forgot i had it
02:00:04 <ehird> To enter the caves, speak thy name.
02:00:07 <ehird> Egads, what a mouthful! (try a different nick)
02:00:12 <ehird> Now to spell it right.
02:00:22 <nescience> yeah, i don't recall what that error is for
02:00:37 <nescience> but i started in character mode telnet so it didn't work well, i got that error a bunch
02:00:46 <ehird> I think the space kicked it off or sth.
02:01:26 <ehird> pikhq: I task you with making unicode symbol entry easy in OSs. Plz make <thing>cent<another>, <thing>forall<another> and the like work, by searching fulltext without spaces (i.e. f,o,r,a,l,l) and with some reordering stuff.
02:01:30 <ehird> (I'm trying to use jewnicode)
02:01:53 <nescience> on an irc client, it colors lines because you see other people's status lines
02:01:59 <nescience> allowing you to deduce their location and shoot them ;)
02:02:40 <nescience> i have a map that has only 5 rooms and one that has like 50
02:02:51 <nescience> and some various ones inbetween .. i have a lot of fun with that game on occasion :)
02:03:00 <nescience> also there's a high score thing but i think it doesn't save when i exit mirc
02:03:27 <ehird> I have a short attention span
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03:25:21 * ehird reads a Chick tract which starts by raping evolution and then turns to raping fundamental particle physic
03:26:21 <oerjan> it's so much easier to get your religion just right when you don't need to worry about the actual universe. *sigh*
03:26:48 <GregorR> What is a "Chick tract" and how is it distinct from a "tract" ...
03:27:02 <ehird> GregorR: Jack Chick's special brand of fundamentalist bullshit.
03:27:08 <ehird> http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
03:27:15 <ehird> Things that are not real: (a) evolution, (b) gluons
03:27:21 <pikhq> GregorR: Hilarious reading if you forget that he's serious.
03:27:42 <oerjan> active shocking pages?
03:28:00 <pikhq> Among other things, he's claimed that Tolkien and Lewis were antiChristian satanists.
03:28:04 <ehird> Actively shitting p-onscience.
03:28:37 <pikhq> (Tolkien being a noted Catholic fantasy author, and Lewis being about as obnoxiously Christian as you can get while still seeming to have *some* grasp on reality)
03:28:56 <ehird> pikhq: What grasp would this be?
03:29:00 <ehird> HURR GIANT LION IT'S LIKE CHRISTIANITY
03:29:07 <ehird> HURR LET'S WRITE TONS OF BOOKS ABOUT THINLY-VEILED CHRISTIANITY
03:29:13 <ehird> I WAS AN ATHEIST ANGRY AT GOD FOR NOT EXISTING. THAT MAKES SENSE, RIGHT?
03:29:27 <pikhq> That was only the Chronicles of Narnia.
03:29:38 <ehird> Actually the last one was his personal account
03:29:39 <oerjan> well it is hard to be an atheist angry at god for _existing_, isn't it
03:29:43 <pikhq> Most of the rest were just straight-up Christianity.
03:30:17 <pikhq> Though he did a nice completely non-Christian retelling of a few Greek myths.
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03:30:51 <ehird> Tolkien was massively racist, wasn't he?
03:31:06 <ehird> rationalizationamationa[...]wetn?
03:31:15 <ehird> I know i18n, but not _this_.
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03:31:52 <ehird> pikhq: wikipedia agrees with you
03:32:07 <ehird> He was horrified by the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, referring to the scientists of the Manhattan Project as "these lunatic physicists" and "Babel-builders".[88]
03:32:13 <ehird> I cannot, however, forgive insulting Feynman.
03:32:55 <pikhq> Feynman is too badass to insult.
03:33:41 <pikhq> Also too likely to crack your safe for the hell of it.
03:34:07 <ehird> http://www.soapier.com/reddit_alien_molds.htm
03:34:19 <ehird> Reddit alien + Bacon smell = übersoap
03:34:55 <ehird> although I'm not sure I'd like my hands to smell of bacon afterwards.
03:34:59 <ehird> Scratch that, yes I would.
03:35:02 <pikhq> GregorR: Reading the Chick tract?
03:35:08 <ehird> I want people to think I eat bacon constantly.
03:35:14 <ehird> They'll be soooo jealous.
03:35:16 <pikhq> ehird: Smell of bacon?
03:35:20 <pikhq> Merely *smell* of bacon?
03:35:30 <ehird> pikhq: I don't want to have any more desire or I'll be handless.
03:35:34 <pikhq> I want bacon in my hands after I wash my hands!
03:35:46 <pikhq> That would be truly übersoap.
03:35:51 <ehird> pikhq: Just figure out a way to use ACTUAL BACON as soap.
03:37:57 <ehird> http://www.chick.com/tractimages16113/1059/1059_18.gif
03:38:02 <ehird> This is just so absurd.
03:38:36 <GregorR> pikhq, ehird: I wonder what their definition of "most scientists" is :P
03:38:46 <pikhq> GregorR: I wish I knew.
03:38:51 <ehird> "Creationist '''''scientists'''''"
03:39:18 <pikhq> Also, I saw "vestigial pelvis" and though "vestigial penis", and went "WTF?"
03:39:37 <ehird> http://www.chick.com/tractimages16113/1059/1059_22.gif ← This is how Christians die
03:39:59 <ehird> They look bright, happy, there's a ray of light and they talk normally. They reach out without any effort at all, and then they just kind of flump down, dead.
03:40:00 * pikhq doṫs hɨs ṫs and crosses hɨs ɨs.
03:40:06 <GregorR> Vestigial penis actually makes MORE sense :P
03:40:14 <ehird> The pelvis is totally useless.
03:40:27 <pikhq> GregorR: They do in fact have a vestigial structure that one could call a pelvis.
03:40:32 <ehird> The penis also; who needs reproduction?
03:40:34 <pikhq> "Hip" is a more accurate term, though.
03:40:53 <GregorR> ehird: Penises are mostly exclusive to mammals, so no, penis != strictly necessary. Just fun :P
03:41:13 <pikhq> Where "they" refers to whales.
03:41:19 <ehird> Yes, but our reproductive system is sorta wired to a penis...
03:41:33 <GregorR> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, BEST SETUP EVER
03:41:57 <ehird> MANY MOUTHS TO D MORE
03:55:50 <oerjan> <ehird> (I'm trying to use jewnicode)
03:56:01 <oerjan> i'm sorry, only Slereah is allowed to do that.
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05:27:44 <GregorR> WTF, Google Chrome advertises?
05:28:00 <pikhq> WTFl, there's advertisements?
05:28:11 <GregorR> WTF, Google Chrome advertises on television?
05:29:34 <pikhq> WTF, people still have TVs?
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08:15:35 <iEhird> you should fly in to a banana
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08:19:30 <fizzie> Are we quite sure ehird's not partaking in any sort of substance abuse?
08:19:58 <olsner> sure? nope, not at all
08:20:26 <olsner> he seems less crazy than oklopol though
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08:21:59 <iEhird> fizzie I can assure you that
08:22:08 <iEhird> I am not not not not not
08:22:24 <iEhird> not not not not not not
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08:23:29 <olsner> hmm, the last thing oklopol said was "this off it ->", and then he quit, after speaking of a chain of some sort, and that was on June 22
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08:23:55 <olsner> omg, maybe oklopol *is* Reiser in disguise
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08:25:26 <iEhird> HEY EVRYONE WILL YOU IRC MAARY ME ABD MY NEXT QUESTION IS WH NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...in bed ...on a plane
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08:55:58 <immibis> what kind of language has dynamic typing but no implicit type conversions?
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09:11:35 <oerjan> <fizzie> Are we quite sure ehird's not partaking in any sort of substance abuse? <-- my exact thought
09:12:03 * oerjan abuses some mackerel in tomato sauce
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09:13:10 <immibis> when i said "what kind of language has dynamic typing but no implicit type conversions?" i meant that "1 + 2.0" is an error
09:13:12 <Deewiant> perl - erm, "2" + 2 yields 4 just fine. That seems somewhat implicit to me.
09:13:32 <fizzie> Python doesn't do it, though.
09:13:48 <fizzie> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects.
09:13:51 <oerjan> <iEhird> I am not not not not not <-- it's ok, i counted 21 nots, which is odd
09:14:04 <AnMaster> <oerjan> <fizzie> Are we quite sure ehird's not partaking in any sort of substance abuse? <-- my exact thought
09:14:11 <oerjan> unless that means he isn't sure himself, though
09:14:19 <Deewiant> In "1 + 2.0", it's common to see 1 as being polysemously typed
09:14:22 <fizzie> Oh, and Javascript's expression "2" + 2 yields "22".
09:14:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: <iEhird> you should fly in to a banana [... etc.]
09:15:07 <AnMaster> I remember seeing some language where 1 + 2.0 was an error
09:15:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: ocaml iirc, but that's not dynamic
09:15:35 <AnMaster> I don't remember if it was dynamically typed or not
09:15:58 <oerjan> different operations for integer and floating point
09:16:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah that may have been it
09:16:42 <oerjan> because it's form of hindley-milner type inference doesn't manage it
09:17:28 <oerjan> i vaguely recall standard ML does something hacky to manage it
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09:17:47 <fizzie> Scheme also doesn't do implicit type conversions except in the sense that all 'number?' types can do arithmetics.
09:18:45 * AnMaster curses rate limiting on freenode
09:19:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: also haskell _technically_ doesn't convert, it's just that most relevant operations (including number literals) are overloaded to work with both integer and floating point
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09:19:59 <oerjan> so 1 + 2.0 works, but not for the reason a dynamic language person would expect
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09:21:41 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from oerjan: 48.01 second(s)
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09:22:05 <AnMaster> <oerjan> so 1 + 2.0 works, but not for the reason a dynamic language person would expect <-- ?
09:22:05 <iEhird> funny bunnies! shitfucking holes!
09:22:09 <AnMaster> I would expect it for the same reason as it would work in C
09:22:40 <iEhird> 2 is of type (Num a)=>a
09:22:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: which it doesn't do
09:22:55 <iEhird> + is num a to a to a RNA
09:23:18 <iEhird> so 1 is infeerred as the floating
09:23:23 <AnMaster> I don't believe it until ehird replied yes
09:23:33 <oerjan> !haskell :t 1 -- testing
09:23:35 <EgoBot> 1 -- testing :: (Num t) => t
09:23:37 * AnMaster kills freenode's rate limiting
09:23:44 <oerjan> ooh it does accept : commands
09:23:47 <iEhird> yes. either drunk or on iphone. you decide abnafer
09:24:09 <EgoBot> (+) :: (Num a) => a -> a -> a
09:24:27 <AnMaster> <iEhird> + is num a to a to a RNA <iEhird> so 1 is infeerred as the floating <-- RNA inference? ~
09:24:49 <oerjan> iEhird: iphone still doesn't explain the banana
09:24:52 <iEhird> basically a teipky fuggela with he Jews called all this
09:25:26 <iEhird> also oerjan NEITHER DOES GOD!!!
09:26:10 <oerjan> iEhird: well maybe _he_ abused some substance. also the banana is heavily cultured.
09:26:10 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <iEhird> + is num a to a to a RNA <iEhird> so 1 is infeerred as the floating <-- RNA inference? ~
09:26:36 <AnMaster> see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_interference -_-
09:27:15 <iEhird> by iPhone battery so low/emotions sour/fuck haiku
09:28:03 <AnMaster> iEhird, I usually hate haiku but this one was ok :)
09:28:12 <iEhird> in case you didn't discombobulate already, I kind of skipped sleeping
09:28:24 <oerjan> 8/5/3 is not haiku. maybe fibonaiku.
09:28:28 <iEhird> also I don't think it's a valid haiku.
09:29:03 * oerjan slept particularly well
09:29:32 <AnMaster> oh just before I leave: I slept badly. They are repairing the railway close to here
09:29:40 <AnMaster> for some reason they do it during night
09:29:45 <oerjan> i cannot help the image of iEhird sitting there with boxing gloves on
09:29:45 <iEhird> I HAVNT SET FOOT IN BED
09:29:47 <fizzie> It is rather interesting how the use of an iPhone for typing seems to affect the content as well as the expression.
09:29:49 <AnMaster> just a few hundred meters from here
09:30:12 <augur> The Hours was a horrible movie.
09:30:22 <augur> just thought i'd throw that out there.
09:30:34 <iEhird> fizzie: you get a new value system for what's feasible to xpress
09:30:50 <iEhird> augur would have a linguistic field day
09:31:01 <augur> ooh whats this now
09:31:08 <iEhird> banana very easy to type
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09:31:16 <augur> fizzie: how do you mean?
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09:31:55 <iEhird> someone link to todays log.
09:32:11 <oerjan> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.07.02
09:32:41 <iEhird> hey evryone you becef me sene we never responded to my irc marriage proposal
09:33:51 <iEhird> such a good word to type. works well on crap touch screen
09:34:02 <iEhird> just two places to tap
09:34:16 <iEhird> apple should demonstrate the kb with it.
09:34:26 <iEhird> bananas. bananas. bananas.
09:34:58 <iEhird> augur read the logs to comprhende.
09:35:30 <iEhird> tried to say comprehende but it got lost in tyois so e looked typo .D
09:35:36 <augur> whats a good notation for variables, if bare character strings are just symbols?
09:35:46 <augur> any unicode is acceptable.
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09:36:38 <fizzie> Ooh, or ☠var. Since they are DANGEROUS.
09:36:43 -!- asiekierka has set topic: we induct pikhqs http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must mustn't contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES.
09:36:51 <augur> i've been getting recommendations for either ‹var› or «var»
09:37:21 <oerjan> interroganf, a little known town in wales
09:37:53 <iEhird> augur I thought of a rationalIzation
09:38:21 <oerjan> asiekierka: iEhird's crappy iphone keyboard
09:38:29 <iEhird> in Gaskell removin points is remving var occcurences. var is point. • is point
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09:42:09 <augur> iEhird: i was considering using ẋ and the like
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09:42:24 <iEhird> right after I said we'd
09:42:42 <iEhird> disconnected battery empty
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09:43:47 <iEhird> someone link me the logs
09:44:19 <oerjan> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.07.02
09:44:47 <augur> your internet sucls.
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09:47:08 <iEhird> Internet is fne read what the duck I said
09:47:09 <oerjan> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.07.02
09:49:02 <iEhird> bgud t f educ dkfksdpegac ehxa DC ruvrlcsicircksckajer g
09:49:15 <oerjan> yes, almost certainly.
09:49:42 <iEhird> en nenfnr rbbf cu fjjagcghwh hwhb euchehhehuf ifjchhd
09:49:57 <oerjan> you can say that again.
09:50:31 <iEhird> no I can't. no copy and paste.
09:50:47 <iEhird> I haven't got 3.0 yet :-P
09:50:52 -!- asiekierka has set topic: we induct iPhone keyboards http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must mustn't contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES.
09:51:11 <oerjan> i hear it can only "copy all"
09:52:08 <fizzie> You copy using a cantaloupe.
09:52:25 <fizzie> It's the fruit conspiracy again.
09:52:29 <oerjan> as long as it isn't a basselope
09:52:35 <fizzie> Except wasn't banana a type of fish?
09:52:52 <iEhird> banana banana banana banana vabababababababababanananananana
09:53:30 <oerjan> banana, a bad ass bass
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09:53:46 <fizzie> [Old Man] The Black Omen sparkles in the sun! Tomorrow should be clear, too. [Choras Inn, 1000 A.D.]
09:53:50 <iEhird> reset my froodvoblt to reset intova vacant alley stare
09:54:17 <iEhird> COOOOOOMPAQQQQQQ!!!!!!!
09:54:25 <oerjan> froodvoblt sounds so douglas adams
09:54:40 <iEhird> saw it on old CRT monitor nearby. realize was easy to type
09:54:58 <iEhird> frood was drops initially
09:55:53 <iEhird> FWFI was frood initially!
09:57:05 <oerjan> !swedish reset my froodvoblt to reset intova vacant alley stare
09:57:05 <EgoBot> reset my fruudfublt tu reset intufa fecunt elley stere-a
09:57:22 <oerjan> just as comprehensible
09:59:08 <iEhird> this wasp/Hornet keeps trying to fuck my window.
09:59:29 <oerjan> wasps with fetishes can be dangerous
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10:00:05 <iEhird> I don't kbowvthe difference
10:00:50 <iEhird> I'm serious it keeps humping the window pane
10:00:51 <oerjan> "Hornets are the largest eusocial wasps"
10:02:38 <iEhird> clicky 4 me --------> http://reddit.com
10:05:38 <oerjan> hm interesting it seems norway doesn't really have hornets
10:06:29 <oerjan> only one species occasionally observed
10:07:10 <iEhird> someone type reddit URL for me thx
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10:07:36 <oerjan> there are 12 other wasp species here, though
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11:31:07 <Deewiant> Is ehird now doing that unnatural sleeping rhythm thing?
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11:31:21 <Deewiant> He did ask us to tell him if he goes insane trying
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12:56:57 <ehird> just doing the insomnia thing
12:57:15 <ehird> uberman's otoh would probably be healthier than the sleep fuckfest I have
12:57:21 <ehird> Deewiant: plz don't say unnatural btw
12:57:25 <ehird> polyphasic sleep is natural
12:57:46 <ehird> many-phased when an infant and biphasic after is the natural human sleep system
12:57:51 <ehird> uberman's is just shifting the latter to the former
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13:27:41 <ehird> [[Also, Gary won a sweepstakes in Finland. He went over there to collect his prize, and that turned into a fourteen week ordeal. He says the Finnish are very nice, but "they need to make more sense."]]
13:27:47 <ehird> fizzie and Deewiant: Take heed!
13:28:15 <fizzie> I make sense all the time.
13:28:32 <ehird> No you doquar tub la be du falafel.
13:34:00 <Deewiant> ehird: I knew you'd take issue with "unnatural", but I said it anyway.
13:34:31 <ehird> Deewiant: YEAH WELL, YOU'RE FINLANDICERIC. YOU GO INTO UNNATURAL SAUNAS MADE OUT OF UNNATURAL SOYLENT GREAN PEOPLE.
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13:54:03 <ehird> i wonder if `n to m` can work instead of `n to (m)` if we're relying on `x y z` where z isn't parenthesized to be `x y () z`
13:54:55 <ehird> i mean for arbitrary `to`s
13:55:10 <ehird> thinking about things when i'm tired is a dumb move i think
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14:31:57 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g9MpLAH5Ps << lol'd hard @ the ending
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15:08:48 <ehird> "ROTFL. Here's some evidence for you: Lisp had 50 years to get anywhere and it failed abysmally and, with me on the scene, functional programming is finally getting somewhere."
15:08:53 <ehird> — Jon Harrop to me.
15:09:12 <ehird> I saw it on Twitter: Harrop's ego has been blasted into low orbit.
15:09:30 <ais523> more or less amazingly brilliant at everything than Wolfram?
15:10:17 <ehird> ais523: A person who trolls usenet, reddit and more with his disgusting shitfest of FUD and idiotic rambling nonsense about Haskell, Lisp and other languages, instead plugging OCaml, F# and his retarded, useless consultancy that nobody gives a damn about. He has actually said that the "controversy" drives business to him.
15:10:33 <ehird> So you can guess he's very successful: spending his days trolling usenet actually increases his revenue.
15:11:02 <ais523> ugh, I think Graue's just changed something on esolang to try to stop the spambots
15:11:07 <ais523> in the last couple of minutes
15:11:14 <ais523> I think he's blocked the url /w/index.php
15:11:24 <ais523> without realising that all actions except view go through there
15:11:56 <ais523> wait no, probably everywhere
15:11:58 <ais523> "The precondition on the request for the URL /wiki/Main_Page evaluated to false."
15:12:12 <ais523> ooh, I think it's blocking referrers /from itself/
15:12:16 <ais523> it works if I retype the URL by hand
15:12:55 * ehird digs out the Nomic World Game 1 logs to tell Harrop to go aeaeisseistjisetc under a rock.
15:13:09 <GregorR> Idonno, just seems to work to me.
15:13:11 <ehird> Gotta get my extremely-obscure insult references right.
15:13:14 <ais523> someone else try to follow an internal link in the wiki
15:13:40 <ais523> GregorR: what about editing a page?
15:14:02 <ehird> grr, the nomic ftp repository appears to be down or cronically slow
15:14:08 <ehird> ais523: got the nomic world log?
15:14:13 <GregorR> ais523: Well, I'm not committing anything, but I can get to the editing page.
15:14:24 <ais523> try pressing show preview
15:15:11 <ais523> ah, idea: then try going to one of those spambot pages, trying to edit it, and pressing show preview
15:15:21 <ais523> my guess is it's blocking text that matches the spambot pattern anywhere in the request
15:15:25 <ais523> including the referer header
15:16:11 <ehird> "In closing, I leave you with some sound advice from days past: Get a life and shut up. Stop cluttering the internet with your inane prattle. Go aestivate under a rock somewhere. In short, feep off and die."
15:16:13 <ehird> So tempting to hit save.
15:16:15 <ehird> SO TEMPTING TO HIT SAVE>
15:16:20 <ehird> Except with a ., not a >
15:17:55 <ehird> Kindly defenestrate yourself, idiot (Yittra, Sep 28 06:13)
15:17:59 <ehird> Man, they had such good insults in 1992
15:22:10 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8xaas/how_did_i_not_find_this_language_years_ago/c0ar2kh
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15:29:58 <nooga> ehird: "ROTFL. Here's some evidence for you: Lisp had 50 years to get anywhere and it failed abysmally and, with me on the scene, functional programming is finally getting somewhere."
15:29:59 <nooga> 16:08 ehird: — Jon Harrop to me.
15:31:43 <ehird> 15:31 Peaker: ehird was on my ignore list for ages.. I think I put him there after some antisemitic racial slurs..
15:31:43 <GregorR> Wow, that's so ... egomaniacal ...
15:31:43 <ehird> 15:31 ehird: .........what?
15:32:03 <nooga> "with me on the scene..." "i'm a sex machine"
15:32:08 <ais523> hey, he didn't imply there was a causal connection
15:33:04 <ehird> 15:32 ehird: Peaker: I have no idea what the flippin' hell you're talking about
15:33:04 <ehird> 15:32 Peaker: <ehird> testers: almost as bad an epidemic as jews. :-|
15:33:06 <ehird> 15:32 ehird: fair enough. useless without context and almost certainly a (bad, admittedly) joke, but if you want to ignore me that's your choice
15:33:40 <ehird> ANTI SEMITIC RCIAL SLURS!!!!
15:35:50 <GregorR> Somehow I manage to get by without using racist remarks as jokes.
15:36:12 <ehird> GregorR: That's just because you're prejudiced against mothers.
15:36:38 <GregorR> Funny, that's just what your mom said last night.
15:36:45 <GregorR> Clearly you were requesting that by name, making it no funny at all :P
15:36:48 <ehird> Though you're right, I'm not going to make any anti-mother racist sexist retard-ist stupid-ist not-all-that-clever-ist religion-ist anything-ist jokes.
15:36:54 <ehird> Q: Why did the chicken cross the road?
15:37:02 <ehird> A: To enrichen his life and discover new possibilities.
15:37:15 <GregorR> I actually am laughing out loud.
15:37:25 <ehird> Wow. That's... rare.
15:37:30 <ehird> You might want to get that checked ou.
15:40:09 <GregorR> (Also, "your mom" jokes aren't "anti-mother" jokes, as they refer to a specific mother; yours :P )
15:40:42 <ehird> Anti-specific-mother.
15:42:11 <GregorR> So about how I'm totally going to Italy tomorrow wooooooooooooooooh.
15:42:33 <ehird> Italy is booooring.
15:42:37 <ehird> Go to the YOUUUUUUUUUUU KAYYYYYYYYYY
15:42:50 <GregorR> Snot my choice. Also I've been to the UK.
15:43:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about combing two of those?
15:43:29 <ehird> Yes, GregorR, but have you CONSCIOUSLY AVOIDED ME while in the UK? It's a whole new experience.
15:43:44 <GregorR> ehird: It was 2004 when I went there :P
15:43:52 <ehird> GregorR: Right then!
15:43:56 <ais523> ehird: I don't think I've ever conciously avoided you either
15:44:09 <ehird> ais523: You're missing out. Or missing in. I don't know which.
15:44:18 <GregorR> OK, so I'll amend my previous statement:
15:44:19 <ais523> although if Hexham's as boring as you claim it is, that might give me an incentive to avoid your hometown and so avoid you by implication
15:44:33 <GregorR> So about how I'm totally going to Italy tomorrow and don't have to pay for it wooooooooooooooooh.
15:44:42 <ehird> Well, it has regular stores, and some houses, and an abbey.
15:44:48 <ehird> There's not much to BE exciting.
15:45:05 <ehird> GregorR: but hoooooooooooooooow
15:45:41 <AnMaster> how does an abbey differ from a monastery btw?
15:45:43 <GregorR> OK, so actually I'm going to a conference, and in my experience that means very little vacationy time, BUT STILL :P
15:45:53 <ehird> AnMaster: There's no monks in an abbey, for one.
15:46:16 <ehird> What I said was... very simple.
15:46:18 <ehird> This abbey, at least.
15:46:22 <ehird> Also this abbey is... small.
15:46:26 <ehird> Like, church-sized.
15:46:33 <HackEgo> * a church associated with a monastery or convent \ * a convent ruled by an abbess \ [21]wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
15:46:44 <ehird> Well I don't even know I've just been in it once
15:46:51 <ehird> It just looks like a church to me and it's called Hexham Abbey
15:46:53 * ais523 tries to figure out what lawlawl even means
15:47:00 <ehird> Also it has a clock on the side.
15:47:06 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham_Abbey
15:47:31 <AnMaster> ais523, word splitting must be "law lawl" I think
15:48:25 * GregorR watches ais523's brain explode.
15:48:38 <ais523> GregorR: how? this computer doesn't have a webcam
15:48:47 <ehird> ais523: He's behind you.
15:48:51 <GregorR> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.
15:48:55 <ehird> No, don't look. Now he's being you again.
15:49:00 <ais523> ehird: wrong continent
15:49:18 <GregorR> ais523: I'm still behind you, you'll just have to look a few thousand miles to see me.
15:49:43 * ais523 tries to figure out which compass direction is in front of the
15:49:53 <ais523> meh, I can't be bothered
15:50:07 <GregorR> AnMaster: He forgot to capitalize: Is in front of THE
15:50:26 <ehird> He accidentally the noun.
15:50:51 <ais523> I was trying to use singular they, and left the last letter off by mistake
15:51:01 <ehird> ais523: but that's incorrect too
15:51:15 <ehird> GregorR: It stands for T.H.E. Human Exoskeleton, actually.
15:51:40 <ais523> ehird: of course it's incorrect, I left the last letter off
15:51:55 <ehird> "ais523 tries to figure out which compass direction is in front of they"
15:51:58 <ehird> That's not correct.
15:52:27 <ehird> That's not singular they.
15:52:29 <ehird> That's singular them.
15:58:40 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2dfKm8XzSQ
15:59:47 <nooga> http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7200/642pxhexhamabbey.jpg gahahahaha
16:00:08 <ehird> Things picture lacks: (a) correct spelling of name, (b) humour.
16:00:40 <nooga> (a) too lazy to check the correct spelling, (b) i know
16:00:49 <ais523> ooh, someone just sued the SCO leadership personally, for theft of trade secrets
16:01:07 <ais523> ofc, that doesn't mean they have a case, but it's certainly making things even weirder
16:02:22 <AnMaster> err wait... someone sued SCO? Not the other way around? Hm. Also who?
16:02:45 <ais523> AnMaster: nobody I've heard of
16:03:01 <ais523> my guess is that someone was looking at SCO's tricks, and decided to practice them themself
16:03:43 <ais523> so? SCO ran out of money ages ago, they're still going
16:04:11 <ais523> AnMaster: nothing that makes a whole lot of sense
16:04:30 <ais523> whenever they're about to be shut down, some incredibly convoluted and surprising development happens
16:04:38 <ais523> which causes everyone to have to reconsider for ages
16:04:56 <ehird> and then they sue somebody
16:05:00 <ais523> incidentally, someone thought that this might be part of a massive legal system for SCO to end up with the UNIX copyrights, that can only be done in bankruptcy court
16:07:26 <ais523> it sort-of makes sense in that bankruptcy court's the only place you can change a slightly invalid copyright title into a clean one
16:12:09 <ehird> ais523: why stall then?
16:12:32 <ais523> ehird: the only plausible explanation I've seen for SCO's behaviour is that someone's paying them to stall
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16:12:46 <ais523> they've certainly been quite good at it, over a year now
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16:13:13 <ehird> people seem to want punching over tcp/ip
16:13:17 <ehird> but i have a more likely idea
16:13:24 <ehird> what if we could transfer punches over legalese?
16:13:33 <ehird> i wouldn't rule it out
16:13:39 <ehird> legalese is pretty crazy
16:13:53 <ais523> just write a 20-page appeals brief which also happens to be an ASCII art goatse
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16:31:52 <pikhq> What exactly would this entail?
16:33:11 <ehird> In which Jon Harrop has a comprehension of "irony" par with that of Alanis Morissette's: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8xaas/how_did_i_not_find_this_language_years_ago/c0ar3ej
16:34:04 <pikhq> Ah, a mov machine.
16:34:10 <pikhq> I <3 mov machines.
16:34:19 <GregorR-L> ehird: You sure talk about this Jon Harrop guy a lot.
16:34:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: I flamed him yesterday, flames ensue.
16:34:38 <GregorR-L> I suspect this animosity is a cover :P
16:34:43 <ehird> Mentioning him ~3 times in two days as part of one continuous thread sure is "a lot".
16:34:48 <ehird> Because people in the middle of something never do that?
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16:39:19 <GregorR-L> Re mov machine: Remember that with memory-mapped CPU, your CPU instructions could write new instructions :P
16:40:36 <GregorR-L> If the target of your instruction was in the area of memory mapped to the CPU, it would write something to ... ITSELF :P
16:40:37 <asiekierka> You would need to have a builtin Verilog/VHDL compiler
16:40:47 <asiekierka> which compiles the source you feed to it and feeds it to a FPGA
16:40:50 <ehird> No, just built in SOLDERING IRON FUCK YEAH
16:41:06 <GregorR-L> The physical properties of the CPU are not memory mapped, just all the internal data.
16:41:36 <asiekierka> I did it to modify addresses in instructions
16:41:40 <GregorR-L> asiekierka: Not after-fetch. You could be changing the instruction as it executes it.
16:43:50 <GregorR-L> To make it an esolang we'd have to find a way for it to be NECESSARY to do that, not just possible.
16:43:58 <ehird> ais523: Not the same thing
16:44:03 <ehird> that's just mmapped program
16:44:05 <pikhq> So you could quite reasonably make the CPU into a CPU emulator.
16:44:29 <pikhq> By writing a program that changes the instructions during fetching.
16:44:30 <ais523> you're thinking of something more like changing the microcode being the only form of doing anything?
16:47:26 <ehird> ais523: he means memory mapped internal CPU registers
16:47:30 <ehird> every scratch space the cpu uses
16:47:50 <ais523> well, that's the case on the PIC more or less
16:48:01 <ais523> although there's certain special cases for sanity
16:48:15 <ehird> ais523: so you can make it dream of imaginary instructions?
16:48:20 <ehird> calculate 2+2 wrong?
16:48:26 <ais523> ehird: not to quite the extent you want, unfortunately
16:50:46 <ehird> There should be a repository of toy language problems to toy around with language des— hey, Rosetta Code.
16:55:43 <ehird> someone implemented the y combinator in applescript
16:59:04 <ais523> well, I implemented continuations in INTERCAL
16:59:08 <ais523> so it's not that far-fetched
17:00:59 <ais523> happy third day of australian mailman reminder week!
17:01:43 <ehird> Not sure it works that way
17:01:52 <ehird> I'm pretty sure there's just one australian mailman reminder day.
17:01:55 <ehird> Then mailman reminder day.
17:02:45 <ais523> #esoteric: where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird
17:03:19 -!- ais523 has set topic: #esoteric: where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "esoteric programming languages" AT ALL TIMES.
17:03:55 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "illegal discombobulation ribcage" AT ALL TIMES.
17:04:54 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "illegal discombobulation ribcage" AT ALL TIMES.
17:05:21 <ais523> all you did was removed the channel name from the start
17:05:24 -!- ehird has set topic: tharr past the river droves, where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the phrase "illegal discombobulation ribcage" AT ALL TIMES.
17:05:34 <GregorR-L> ais523: I didn't intend to, Xchat did it :P
17:05:49 <ais523> and what were you trying to change?
17:06:11 <GregorR-L> ais523: Nothing. I just wanted my name on it :P
17:06:59 -!- ehird has changed nick to GregorR_.
17:07:31 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to Gr.
17:07:37 <Gr> /nick GrеgorR :-P
17:07:45 <Gr> Stupid anti-Crylliciicjicsjsicm.
17:07:57 -!- Gr has changed nick to GregorR-l_.
17:07:59 -!- GregorR-l_ has changed nick to GregorR-I.
17:08:03 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to write.
17:08:21 -!- GregorR-I has changed nick to GregorR-I_.
17:08:53 <write> zohmaigawd tahtso confinsink
17:09:17 <ais523> what if I don't want to write that?
17:09:29 -!- write has changed nick to read.
17:10:06 -!- read has changed nick to ehlrd.
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17:13:26 -!- ehlrd has changed nick to ais524.
17:13:30 -!- memorymappedbuff has changed nick to read.
17:13:43 * read reads ais524...
17:13:53 <read> I see many your faces in the future.
17:13:59 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to write.
17:14:10 * write writes "ais523" to ais524...
17:14:32 -!- read has changed nick to ehlrd.
17:14:58 -!- ais524 has changed nick to GregorR-I_.
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17:16:32 <ehlrd> Well that was stupid :P
17:16:34 -!- ehlrd has changed nick to GregorR-L.
17:16:54 -!- GregorR-I_ has changed nick to ehird.
17:17:16 <oerjan> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
17:19:25 <oerjan> <ehird> Deewiant: YEAH WELL, YOU'RE FINLANDICERIC. YOU GO INTO UNNATURAL SAUNAS MADE OUT OF UNNATURAL SOYLENT GREAN PEOPLE. <-- people are soylent green, now?
17:20:15 <ehird> No, it's imitation soylent green.
17:21:09 -!- write has changed nick to asiekreika.
17:21:12 -!- asiekreika has changed nick to asiekierka.
17:22:47 <oerjan> <ais523> in the last couple of minutes
17:22:59 <oerjan> actually i think i noticed that a couple of days ago
17:23:18 <oerjan> or maybe yesterday; anyway there was a spam i couldn't blank
17:23:57 <oerjan> i guessed it was something stupidly triggering the spam filter when reverting the spam, or so
17:24:13 <oerjan> and since it was a new article i couldn't just edit an older version
17:24:24 <ais523> oerjan: it affects delete and block too
17:24:29 <oerjan> i haven't checked if it was a problem anywhere else
17:24:41 <ais523> that's why I haven't dealt with the latest piece of spam
17:24:49 <ais523> I've tried to, but found it's physically impossible
17:25:48 <oerjan> wait, it said you did delete a spam
17:26:38 <oerjan> lessee it _doesn't_ affect editing another article (CAT)
17:27:16 <oerjan> it only prevents editing that particular spam i guess
17:27:34 <oerjan> (assuming it's the same "Precondition failed" i see)
17:28:40 <oerjan> <ehird> grr, the nomic ftp repository appears to be down or cronically slow <-- isn't it always slow?
17:29:34 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:29:39 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to ehird.
17:29:43 <ehird> That felt good mind you.
17:29:48 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
17:29:54 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANYWAY
17:30:11 <oerjan> i read that as "frc ftp repository"
17:30:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: We blew our cover over a misunderstanding to boot!
17:30:59 <oerjan> (since that is the only nomic ftp repository i'm acquainted with)
17:31:06 <ehird> Has anyone actually worked out what's happened yet?
17:31:15 <oerjan> also, i had already noticed you were up to something, thus my aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
17:31:17 <ehird> Maybe we could discreetly switch back and everyone would think this was just a joke.
17:31:32 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehlrd.
17:31:36 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to GregorR-I_.
17:31:42 -!- ehlrd has changed nick to GregorR-L.
17:31:52 -!- GregorR-I_ has changed nick to ehird.
17:32:21 <oerjan> huh you're right, going to the main page fails
17:32:37 -!- comex has changed nick to GregorL-R.
17:32:45 <oerjan> ais523: it only fails when doing it from that spam
17:33:02 <oerjan> it's something with that page that blocks doing anything from it
17:33:08 -!- GregorL-R has changed nick to comex.
17:33:50 <oerjan> hm that _might_ mean...
17:35:10 <oerjan> i managed to edit it by entering the URL, but saving the edit failed
17:35:12 <asiekierka> Some Engrish from my new mouse's instruction manual:
17:35:27 <asiekierka> "When the receiver successful change the Ids, the indicator will flash several fast."
17:36:29 <asiekierka> "1,place the mouse one the stand and make sure the charging indicator is lightON,"
17:36:33 <oerjan> and pasting the submit URL doesn't work, naturally :(
17:36:37 <asiekierka> someone writing the instructions was DRUNK
17:37:12 <oerjan> ais523: do you know how to fake a submit without a referrer? that might work...
17:37:21 <ais523> oerjan: I was wondering about that
17:37:21 <ehird> asiekierka: translate.google.com doesn't drink.
17:37:38 <asiekierka> this one must me typical chinese engrish
17:37:41 <ais523> it's a pity you can't just use the API, but that's a newer MediaWiki version than the one esolang has
17:37:48 <oerjan> emphasis on _you_, there >:/
17:37:49 <asiekierka> the double-spaces and no-spaces and stuff are authentical
17:38:39 <GregorR-L> "Authentical," on the other hand, is not authentical.
17:41:15 <oerjan> ais523: what the heck CSS is no longer working for me on esolang
17:41:36 <ais523> oerjan: my guess is that the stylesheet's blocked for the same reason as the edit-the-spam is blocked
17:42:18 <GregorR-L> CSS is like spam. For your webpage.
17:42:43 <oerjan> hmph that didn't work either
17:42:53 <asiekierka> i'm running make for like the 15th time today
17:43:08 <pikhq> SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM.
17:43:58 <pikhq> !haskell cycle "SPAM "
17:46:35 <oerjan> pikhq: EgoBot doesn't print anything when programs go beyond the time limit without printing a newline
17:47:04 <GregorR-L> pikhq: If it flushed, it would work.
17:47:21 <oerjan> !haskell main = do putStr "SPAM "; hFlush stdout; main
17:47:43 <oerjan> !haskell import System.IO; main = do putStr "SPAM "; hFlush stdout; main
17:48:06 <oerjan> it's very slow at responding...
17:48:10 <pikhq> LIES AND GREGORIOUS DECEIT
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17:48:59 <GregorR-L> Oh, never mind. CANCEL PREVIOUS STATEMENT.
17:49:25 <GregorR-L> Apparently bash's 'read' always waits for a newline.
17:51:57 <oerjan> hm does the -n option mean it doesn't look for a newline at all?
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18:21:14 <oerjan> <ehird> A: To enrichen his life and discover new possibilities.
18:22:01 * oerjan has now idea why he cannot stop laughing at that
18:23:07 <oerjan> <GregorR> So about how I'm totally going to Italy tomorrow wooooooooooooooooh.
18:23:29 <ehird> well nor can your mom. or something.
18:23:53 <oerjan> GregorR-L: if my stereotypes of italians are anything to go by, you might want to _seriously_ tone down your mom jokes when there
18:24:09 <GregorR-L> oerjan: Yeah, well, so might YOUR MOM.
18:24:22 <oerjan> no she cannot, she's dead
18:24:55 <oerjan> hard to tone down your jokes more at that point
18:25:37 <GregorR-L> That being said, in real life I'm nothing like I am online.
18:26:04 <oerjan> you mean you're really an annoying brat?
18:26:38 <pikhq> You mean you don't play piano and don't know how to program?
18:26:50 <oerjan> and he doesn't really wear hats, either
18:27:03 <GregorR-L> My top skill is sleeping. But I RULE at that.
18:27:05 <oerjan> that's just photoshopped
18:29:08 <oerjan> <ais523> ehird: I don't think I've ever conciously avoided you either <-- i think you need to go to hexham to do that properly
18:33:27 <ehird> Actually, I'm everywhere. True fact.
18:36:16 <ehird> portable... bunnies
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18:37:57 <ais523> oerjan: I was wondering if conciously avoiding Hexham was sufficient
18:38:55 <ehird> No. You have to go through various complicated antireligious antirituals of avoidance to properly experience avoiding me.
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18:41:25 <oerjan> ais523: ideally you should visit his mom some time he is out of town
18:41:52 <oerjan> that should recharge our channel's joke batteries for years to come
19:01:56 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:02:33 <GregorR-L> If you guessed that "ehird" was actually GregorR, and I am actually ehird...
19:02:35 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to ehird.
19:02:45 <ehird> Now how many people guessed that?
19:04:56 <oerjan> i didn't notice you renicking after i blew your cover the first time
19:08:54 <oerjan> ok discussing EgoBot's internals like that was quite clever. i think you must have discussed tactics by privmsg
19:09:33 <oerjan> even if the first comment was factually incorrect
19:09:42 <ehird> oerjan: Actually, he thought it was correct :P
19:09:51 <ehird> Anyway, we're now both experts at confusing nick-change cycles.
19:15:57 <oerjan> that should be useful for your future (?) international crime syndicate
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20:50:34 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.ms-windows.misc/tree/browse_frm/thread/2e504f3435ab24d4/7baf6b6cad9cbab5?rnum=531&q=intel+consortium&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fcomp.os.ms-windows.misc%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F2e504f3435ab24d4%2F96cbe4eb2c34c5c9%3Flnk%3Dgst%26q%3Dintel%2Bx86%2Bconsortium%26rnum%3D1%26#doc_761ebda0a17cb4d8
20:50:42 <ehird> Scott Nudds is a fucking moron.
20:50:51 <ehird> Wonder what he does these days
20:52:06 <ehird> As I said earlier, once you get past 50-100 megabytes of RAM, virtual
20:52:07 <ehird> memory makes more sense. I expect 200 megabytes will be the limit for
20:52:08 <ehird> most users. People who like to fake photographs will probably want
20:52:10 <ehird> several times this amount. The rest will be virtual.
20:53:59 <oerjan> just wait until we start faking holograms
20:54:45 <pikhq> What's this about virtual memory making more sense once you get past 50-100 megabytes of RAM?
20:55:08 <ehird> pikhq: Scott Nudds; it's old.
20:55:17 <pikhq> Funny, virtual memory makes sense by the time you get past the *1 process* mark. :P
20:55:17 <ehird> Biggest Idiot of 1997.
20:55:25 <ehird> pikhq: He doesn't mean it that way
20:55:28 <ehird> pikhq: He means memory that isn't in RAM
20:55:44 <pikhq> Oh, he means memory that's swapped out.
20:55:53 <pikhq> Or in Windows terms, paged out.
20:56:02 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8xno7/you_think_that_computers_will_ever_have_gigabytes/c0arbsv ← I expect 400 gigabytes will be the limit for most users. People who like to fake access to supercomputers will probably want 100 more than this amount.
20:56:38 <ais523> still, 10 years ago I couldn't even imagine what you'd do with a gigabyte of hard disk space
20:56:39 <ehird> well 'pparently nudds is a troll
20:56:42 <ehird> but it's funny anyway
20:56:45 <pikhq> Gigabytes of RAM? Actually quite likely. ;)
20:56:53 <pikhq> ais523: 10 years ago?
20:56:58 <ehird> ais523: huh? 1999? in like 2002 I had 10gb of hd space
20:57:03 <ehird> on a shitty shitty machine
20:57:14 <ehird> unless you were like a decade behind I can't see a gigabyte being impressive
20:57:18 <pikhq> I've got a 10G drive from the mid-90s.
20:57:19 <oerjan> sending memory off to alpha centauri for storage makes more sense by the time you get past the 50 exabyte mark
20:57:23 <HackEgo> 20 pounds = 1.42857143 stone
20:57:25 <pikhq> Still works, in fact.
20:57:27 <ais523> I've been about a decade behind pretty much forever
20:57:41 <ais523> my assumption was that if something ran on an old computer, it would run on anything
20:57:44 <pikhq> ais523: ... You had a C64 in 95?
20:57:45 <ais523> so I used it for programming on
20:57:55 <ais523> pikhq: no, a BBC Micro
20:58:08 <ais523> and actually, that would have been in about 1997
20:58:19 <pikhq> Hey, I've got a *20G* drive from 2000.
20:58:24 <pikhq> Still works and everything.
20:58:30 <ehird> old disks have a certain charm
20:58:39 <ehird> big, loud, heavy things with just one platter
20:58:45 <ehird> crunchin' away your ten gigabytes
20:58:57 <ais523> my first computer didn't even have a hard disk
20:59:03 <ehird> UPHILL IN THE SNOW
20:59:05 <ais523> although it used a floppy drive, not a tape drive
20:59:28 <ehird> my first computer ran windows 3.11. it was 1998.
20:59:29 <ais523> wow, I was using 5 1/4" floppy disks back then
20:59:34 <ehird> Just a bit behind hur hur
20:59:46 <ais523> a bit later, we moved onto a computer which was massively old
20:59:54 <ais523> it ran Windows 3.1 original
20:59:54 <pikhq> My first computer ran 95. This was back in 98.
21:00:01 <ais523> and only had a few MB of hard disk space left
21:00:09 <ais523> or possibly a few hundreds of KB, I can't quite remember
21:00:11 <ehird> i loved having the extra 1
21:00:15 <ais523> so we stored everything on floppy disks
21:00:21 <ehird> pikhq: meh, 95 was a decent os
21:00:21 <pikhq> Built from scratch because I was interested in computers.
21:00:38 <ehird> computers cost a fuckload in '98 at least for what my parents could afford
21:00:39 <pikhq> (and so grandmother taught me how to put one together)
21:00:39 <ais523> I actually rather liked 3.1
21:00:42 <ehird> so it was quite the chugger
21:00:46 <ehird> ais523: needs moar taskbar
21:00:55 <ais523> OK, so it had trouble multitasking, but its singletasking worked pretty well
21:01:03 <ais523> better than most of the subsequent versions, anyway
21:01:08 <ais523> control-alt-delete actually did something
21:01:26 <pikhq> My second box was some freeby that came with 95 installed on it. Became my first Linux box.
21:01:39 <pikhq> I've still got the CD burner from it.
21:01:39 <ais523> I still have a Windows 95 computer
21:01:43 <ais523> although I haven't turned it on for ages
21:02:07 * pikhq is too cheap to get a better burner
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21:08:54 <oerjan> !haskell putStr.take 500.cycle$"marmots "
21:08:56 <EgoBot> marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots marmots
21:09:08 <ehird> oerjan: go get λbot back
21:09:16 <ais523> why did lambdabot disappear?
21:09:24 <oerjan> i didn't get it here in the first place
21:09:33 <GregorR> oerjan: No, you just killed it.
21:09:48 <oerjan> no i didn't, i don't think i was even logged on
21:09:55 <ehird> GregorR: OK, jig's up... back to our normal nicks, kay?
21:09:59 -!- ehird has changed nick to GregorR-L.
21:10:16 <GregorR> Also, no, I'm in too many channels to go nick-switchin' just for this one :P
21:10:22 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to ehird.
21:10:31 <GregorR> In spite of how amusing and probably convincing that would have been.
21:10:40 <oerjan> ehird: nice try but this time i _was_ paying attention
21:10:47 <ais523> it wouldn't have worked due to whois data
21:10:52 <ehird> ais523: but it DID
21:10:55 <GregorR> ais523: Nobody whoised us before :P
21:10:57 <ehird> ais523: we fooled everyone for like 20 minuets
21:11:12 <ehird> even after slipping up
21:11:22 <oerjan> GregorR: oh i did whois you just not the second time, because i didn't notice you changing nicks again
21:11:34 <ais523> gah, you make me want to work on ickirc again
21:11:39 <ais523> CTCP SWAPNICK needs implementing
21:11:52 <ehird> ais523: see '09:06:59 --- nick: ehird -> GregorR_' onwards in http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.07.02
21:12:01 <ehird> it doesn't last too long in logtime
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21:33:56 <ais523> argh: http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1809&aid=-1
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22:41:10 <ehird> I think the wrong-return-type bug is rather serious, possibly a release
22:41:10 <ehird> blocker for 3.0.1. I'll see if I can produce a patch.
22:41:12 <ehird> The incorrect rounding (returning 30.0 instead of 20.0) is less serious,
22:41:13 <ehird> but still needs fixing.
22:41:16 <ehird> —Python bug report
22:41:26 <ehird> Because returning an int instead of a float is more important than the results being correct.
22:53:35 <lifthrasiir> because the fact that floating point calculation may be incorrect is widely known, while unexpected return type change is not.
22:55:24 <ehird> nice set of priorities.
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23:25:47 <ehird> I guess I had better get a Less Wrong account.
23:26:10 <ehird> And less than 60 seconds later, I'm done and logged in.
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23:29:24 * ehird turns off hiding of all comments and articles because he inevitably reads them anyway and tries to dislike hive minds.
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14:43:10 <ehirdiphone> And now to test iPhone OS 3.0s copy and paste by linking to this semi-lame comic about Brainfuck that I found on reddit: http://dustland.thedailynathan.com/11
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16:39:28 <oerjan> `define discombobulation
16:39:29 <HackEgo> * confusion: a feeling of embarrassment that leaves you confused \ [12]wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * discombobulate - bewilder: cause to be confused emotionally
16:40:03 <oerjan> i take it that is successful, then
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16:48:26 <fizzie> Today I wrote a bit of Perl so that fungot can use language models generated by our state-of-the-art VariKN n-gram toolkit; it does a fancy variable-length n-gram model growing thing with Kneser-Ney smoothing.
16:48:26 <fungot> fizzie: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop, crono!
16:48:52 <fizzie> The results... maybe leave something to be desired. Although I've only tried it with a one very short piece of data.
17:00:26 <oerjan> "our state-of-the-art"? is this from your department's research?
17:02:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
17:02:14 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
17:02:25 <fizzie> Yes, a published bit of it though. http://varikn.forge.pascal-network.org/
17:03:00 <fizzie> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
17:05:06 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for quote!
17:05:15 <HackEgo> 14|<reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
17:07:03 <oerjan> `quote <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
17:07:03 <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
17:07:19 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ strfile \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
17:07:24 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
17:07:25 <fungot> oerjan: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
17:07:25 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
17:08:31 <fizzie> "he's really a tricycle!" A bit random.
17:08:34 <oerjan> "he's really a tricycle!"?
17:10:45 <fizzie> Currently there's a bit of a problem in that it always uses the longest-length n-gram the tree has, which makes it a bit too likely to quote verbatim. The model gives a back-off probability I could use for randomly selecting a bit shorter context, leading to more variable output, but since the babble-generation needs to be written in Befunge I haven't had time to do it well.
17:11:44 <fizzie> In fact that seems to be a direct quotation from the bit: "hey, check it out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!"
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18:46:46 <oerjan> is that related to virtuaa?
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18:48:31 <ehirdiphone> I am fucking off now. WTF is this smiley graphic it keeps trying to complete: O.O ? I'll check the logs to see. Buh-bye for now. Especially you, Associat0r (yep, nick completion works).
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18:51:02 <oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
18:51:16 <oerjan> but we already knew that. he is a regular after all.
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18:56:34 <asiekierka> `addquote <oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
18:56:35 <HackEgo> 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
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18:56:56 <HackEgo> 10|<oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
18:57:52 <HackEgo> 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
18:58:01 <HackEgo> 26|<FireFly> Meh <FireFly> ._.
18:58:17 <asiekierka> `addquote <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
18:58:17 <fungot> asiekierka: but, we are far outnumbered! and to think that i'm his father!! the king does not wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
18:58:18 <HackEgo> 27|<fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
18:58:41 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
18:58:50 <fungot> asiekierka: windows 95 ms-dos edit is the ordinary text that is needed when two sprites hit each other, sprite graphics
18:59:02 <fungot> asiekierka: up before they can be read again. that means that program running is also abailable by setting this bit to 0
18:59:16 <asiekierka> that's the new official misspell for available
18:59:25 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
18:59:30 <fungot> asiekierka: ok man, i've told you the attention i think
18:59:30 <oerjan> it means available in spanish
18:59:50 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to tester001asie.
18:59:54 <fungot> tester001asie: type in computer controlled
18:59:55 -!- tester001asie has changed nick to asiekierka.
19:00:04 <asiekierka> fungot: Why are you such an idiot with YOUTUBE COMMENTS?
19:00:05 <fungot> asiekierka: this plane was a test flight operated by remote control", it's a sobe commercial, but sing opera?! i want to give 4000 to each chinese citizen to pay for it
19:00:35 <fungot> FireFly: omg look it up. very sad accident. but noone will care cos you so surpriced??
19:00:59 <asiekierka> fungot: You don't have EMOTION! You're just a GOT!
19:00:59 <fungot> asiekierka: not you and decide for yourself. we're all intittled to an old rob schneider skit called " orgasm guy. you can search air france
19:01:16 <FireFly> Why did I accidentally f<tab> for fungot? I just realised I'd tab my own name before fungot
19:01:17 <fungot> FireFly: featuring:hillary clinton. the accident and find out for you. at least 50 journalists on board, so f ' em for nothing
19:01:47 <asiekierka> I think i should update that fungot database
19:01:48 <fungot> asiekierka: who said you had a trailer, the pilot went to jail for months, to illegal futures trades, six crew.
19:02:24 -!- jix has joined.
19:02:52 <asiekierka> i'm looking for the youtube comment list AND sed scripts
19:03:51 * oerjan swats FireFly for doing such a stupid thing. -----###
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21:51:55 <ehird> 10:48:31 <ehirdiphone> I am fucking off now. WTF is this smiley graphic it keeps trying to complete: O.O ? I'll check the logs to see. Buh-bye for now. Especially you, Associat0r (yep, nick completion works).
21:51:56 <ehird> 10:48:39 --- quit: ehirdiphone (Client Quit)
21:51:57 <ehird> 10:50:35 <Associat0r> what?
21:52:11 <ehird> I was testing out (a) my new iPhone IRC client, (b) the iPhone OS upgrade I did.
21:52:18 <ehird> It now has copy and paste, so I tried that.
21:52:23 <ehird> "I am fucking off now." = "Bye."
21:52:32 <ehird> But then when I typed "o", it tried to complete it to a smiley graphic.
21:52:40 <ehird> So I tried that and checked the logs and saw it was O.O.
21:52:51 <ehird> Then I tested nick completion with a long nick that just entered.
21:53:36 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
21:54:13 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
21:54:16 <HackEgo> 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
21:54:24 <ehird> Insanity and murder.
21:54:32 <ehird> Two great tastes that taste great together.
21:54:36 <ehird> Deewiant: !haskell
21:55:16 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, it died. I'll ask gwern to return it.
21:55:41 <Deewiant> Hence why I suggested somebody run their own instead of relying on the suicidal one
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21:55:50 <oerjan> well ask them to put #esoteric in the proper initialization list...
21:56:13 <ehird> Deewiant: The suicidal one is the "official" one and anyway compiling lambdabot is a pain.
21:56:23 <ehird> FunctorSal: I espy your #haskell origins.
21:56:43 <Deewiant> I know it's "official" but that doesn't really matter
21:56:55 <oerjan> ehird: that's not a given. it could be a real category theorist.
21:57:02 <FunctorSal> so is this about strange languages or crystals and stuff? ;)
21:57:10 <ehird> oerjan: But I just said #esoteric in #haskell and e's in there.
21:57:13 <oerjan> FunctorSal: the former
21:57:20 <ehird> FunctorSal: The former, although the latter if you believe some kooks that enter here occasionally.
21:57:41 <ehird> (Cue Sussman: "We conjure the spirits of the computer with our spells!")
21:57:51 <ehird> If you've seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/, that's us.
21:58:12 <FunctorSal> oerjan: ehird is right; I also like CT, but wouldn't call myself a real category theorist yet ;)
22:03:32 <oerjan> ^ul ((*)(*))(~:^*a~^Sa*~:^):^
22:03:33 <fungot> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************ ...too much output!
22:03:46 <oerjan> ^ul ((*)(*))(~:^*a~^( )*Sa*~:^):^
22:03:46 <fungot> * * ** *** ***** ******** ************* ********************* ********************************** ******************************************************* ***************************************************************************************** ********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
22:04:08 <pikhq> The fibonacci sequence? Spiffy.
22:04:20 <ehird> More like the fibonawesome.
22:05:09 -!- phearle has joined.
22:05:23 <pikhq> FunctorSal: Welcome to Esoteric.
22:05:33 <ehird> It has a lowercase e.
22:05:36 * pikhq passes crystals over the Brainfuck compiler
22:05:47 <ehird> phearle: sheesh, you're one of the #haskell people too?
22:05:48 <pikhq> ehird: Lies and deceit, good ſir.
22:05:53 <ehird> Too many! Too many!
22:05:57 <ehird> pikhq: ChanServ agrees with me.
22:06:32 <pikhq> ehird: I'm a #haskell parson now.
22:06:34 <oerjan> ehird: i recall there is someone (CESSMASTER?) who usually joins #ESOTERIC
22:06:38 <ehird> pikhq: Alan Parsons?
22:06:57 <ehird> phearle: so where you from in particular then. that brought you here.
22:07:06 <ehird> oerjan: HARDCORE ESOTERICISM
22:07:30 <phearle> I saw this room mentioned in the channel, if that is what you are referring to.
22:07:42 <Gracenotes> ehird: what an unfortunate fetish to have!
22:07:54 <ehird> As long as you're here for the weird languages and not the "magick", this is the right place.
22:08:04 <oerjan> ehird is always right. it's right there in his nick, if you reverse it and correct it a tiny bit.
22:08:08 <ehird> Well, assuming you like channels that are offtopic 98.7% of the time.
22:08:40 <ehird> oerjan: drihe → ridhe → righe → right.
22:08:42 <ehird> I like your logic.
22:09:10 <oerjan> my logic is always right too.
22:09:18 <oerjan> my assumptions, not so much.
22:09:56 <ehird> oerjan: i have a wonderful set theory
22:10:09 <ehird> ZF set theory, plus the axiom of choice, plus all of the bible.
22:10:43 <oerjan> i think you could tone it down to just predicate logic + bible
22:10:56 <oerjan> you only need one inconsistency after all
22:11:16 <ehird> But everyone knows ZF+AoC are true.
22:11:23 <ehird> Everyone knows the Bible is true, too; it says so.
22:12:00 <oerjan> gödel might have a bit of quibble with that.
22:12:08 <oerjan> well, if he weren't dead.
22:12:34 <ehird> Gödel is being tortured in an eternal lake of fire for his sins.
22:12:37 <ehird> P.S. Jesus loves you!
22:12:53 <oerjan> ehird: and he _still_ considers it an improvement.
22:13:07 <ehird> FunctorSal: Shut up.
22:13:20 <oerjan> he was paranoid, anyway
22:13:28 <ehird> Only in his later life.
22:13:30 <ehird> I loved the whole "my food might be poisoned so I won't eat anything" schtick.
22:13:33 <ehird> Way to fail at probability!
22:13:34 <FunctorSal> well I don't know how religious he was in everyday life, but I think he made a god-proof
22:13:43 <ehird> Even if you ARE being conspired against it's a net loss...
22:14:32 <oerjan> 'Gödel was a convinced theist and a lifelong Christian. He rejected the notion that God was impersonal, as Einstein believed. He believed firmly in an afterlife, stating: .I am convinced of the afterlife, independent of theology. If the world is rationally constructed, there must be an afterlife."'
22:15:03 <ehird> I love how they just assert how it's obviously rationally so.
22:15:16 <ehird> I like the ontological argument, too; I wished myself a perfect fortune that way.
22:16:05 <ehird> fun fact: Quantum immortality fucking sucks as the probability of you going into a terrible coma only to wake up one second every billion years increases rapidly vs your chance of dying.
22:16:15 <ehird> FunctorSal: two of 'em
22:16:15 <ehird> 1. God is something of which nothing greater can be thought.
22:16:16 <ehird> 2. God may exist in the understanding.
22:16:18 <ehird> 3. It is greater to exist in reality and in the understanding than just in understanding.
22:16:20 <ehird> 4. Therefore, God exists in reality
22:16:24 <ehird> 1. God is the entity of which nothing greater can be thought.
22:16:26 <ehird> 2. It is greater to be necessary than not.
22:16:28 <ehird> 3. God must therefore be necessary.
22:16:30 <ehird> 4. Hence, God exists necessarily.
22:16:41 <FunctorSal> I was referring to 'perfect fortune' :)
22:16:46 <ehird> It went like this:
22:17:03 <FunctorSal> and how did you paste that so rapidly anyway? got it on a hotkey? :D
22:17:32 <pikhq> ehird: ... How very null.
22:17:41 <ehird> 1. The Perfect Fortune is an entity that is the $1,000,000,000 of which nothing great can be thought (in the subset of $1,000,000,000s). 2. The Perfect Fortune may exist in the understanding. 3. It is greater to exist in reality and in the understanding than just in understanding. 4. Therefore, The Perfect Fortune exists in reality
22:17:46 -!- Hiato has joined.
22:17:55 <ehird> hm forgot to specify it was mine
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22:17:58 <ehird> whatever, trivial change
22:18:10 <ehird> FunctorSal: copy and paste from wikipedia skillz
22:18:32 <ehird> i had the article Gödel's ontological proof open anyway
22:18:34 <ehird> and it links to it
22:18:49 <FunctorSal> strategically, I wouldn't argue with pure existance proofs for god. Ask them why it should be a god that imposes <arbitrary prescriptions on how to live> rather than some other god
22:19:29 <ehird> I don't argue with theists about their religion because arguing against baked-in delusions justified by "faith" is incredibly difficult. :p
22:21:01 <pikhq> Funny, I could've sworn that most religions were, by their very nature, untestable.
22:21:15 <ehird> pikhq: what was that a response to?
22:21:24 <ehird> Plenty of delusions are inherently unprovable and untestable.
22:21:31 <pikhq> Poorly phrased response to that conversation.
22:21:39 <ehird> In fact, believing something of the sort is true is a category of delusion.
22:22:06 <FunctorSal> I don't think throwing around insults like that convinces anyone
22:22:15 <ehird> FunctorSal: I am not intending to insult everyone.
22:22:49 <ehird> I call certain beliefs delusions because they meet all criteria and I don't make an exception to how I say things for religion just because the standard cultures do.
22:22:58 <ehird> And calling a belief delusional is not a knock on the believer in any way.
22:23:44 <FunctorSal> well, it's not maladaptive in the way paranoid psychosis is
22:24:10 <ehird> Paranoid psychosis is not the only other delusion...
22:24:19 <FunctorSal> maybe it's even an advantage because you are more motivated
22:25:00 <ehird> FunctorSal: say someone had a deep conviction that every quark is actually made up of undetectable gnomes, and that by making these gnomes happy, we can improve our life. they also refuse to debate this matter with you, saying it angers the gnomes.
22:25:05 <ehird> surely you would recognize this as delusional?
22:25:18 <ehird> Religion is just the same, except it seems less wacky because we're used to it.
22:26:39 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>>>++++<<<<<]>>>+>+>[-<[->>+<<]<[-<.>>+<]<<.>>>>>[-<<+<+>>>]<]
22:26:39 <EgoBot> @ @ @@ @@@ @@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
22:27:08 <pikhq> I'd imagine you could get that a bit more efficient, though.
22:27:32 <FunctorSal> ehird: sure, but I mean not all religious people are in generally-delusional state of mind
22:27:42 <zid> fibonacci?
22:27:50 <ehird> You can believe a delusion but still be otherwise sane
22:27:54 <FunctorSal> (understanding 'delusional' to be more a state of mind than something about specific beliefs)
22:30:45 <ehird> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001283.html ← I love how Jeff Atwood is egotistical enough to think that his pet site absolutely needs 48GB of RAM to run.
22:33:01 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++[->++>>>++++++++>++++<<<<<]>>+>+<<[->[-<<+>>]>[->.<<+>]>>.<<<<<[->>+>+<<<]>]
22:33:01 <EgoBot> @ @ @@ @@@ @@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
22:34:00 <oerjan> hm reversing the cells didn't make much difference
22:43:00 <Gracenotes> hm, lovely comment, no? http://www.reddit.com/r/java/comments/8xz6s/cobol_to_java_automatic_migration_with_gpled_tools/
22:44:21 <Gracenotes> but anything not COBOL is good. language gave me a headache trying to read ;_;
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23:12:54 <pikhq> ehird: 48G of RAM?
23:13:03 <pikhq> ehird: Is he storing the site in RAMdisk?
23:27:56 <GuestShadowSkunk> I wonder, is there a general word for the things a programming language can do?
23:28:30 <ehird> GuestShadowSkunk: Operation?
23:28:37 <ehird> Only works for imperatives, I guess
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23:28:47 <ehird> With functional languages you never do.
23:29:04 <Slereah> Well, functional languages you can speak of functions
23:29:19 <Slereah> I just wondered if there's a general word for that
23:33:13 <augur> i think a good description is like
23:33:28 <augur> this is sort of tautological but
23:34:40 <augur> functional programming is about deriving related data, imperative is about changing data, and declarative is about discovering related data
23:35:06 <augur> so i guess you could say that the things that languages can do is change, derive, or discover
23:35:30 <augur> and i dont think theres a single word to describe this, because i think they're really fundamentally different things
23:35:31 <ehird> functional is a subset of declarative
23:35:52 <ehird> your analogy doesn't account for that
23:35:58 <augur> its also a subset of procedural :P
23:36:58 <augur> my point is that in terms of how you think about coding
23:37:19 <augur> functional is more about deriving new data, rather than discovering related data
23:37:44 <augur> declarative is all about discovering what exists, not deriving what you know must exist
23:43:42 <pikhq> Slereah: "Computing quantums".
23:46:04 <ehird> augur: functional != subset of procedural
23:46:37 <ehird> augur: you're thinking of logical languages when you say declarative
23:46:41 <ehird> declarative is just what-not-how
23:50:39 <Slereah> pikhq : how do you do for languages that are just strings of symbols on a set of rules?
23:53:12 <pikhq> Can it be quantised?
23:53:41 <Slereah> I guess you could say it only has one thing, without the io, but Iunno
23:54:19 <ehird> pikhq: Ha, I thought you meant literal quantum particles
23:54:27 <ehird> I thought it was intentionally over-generic
23:55:32 <augur> ehird, ofcourse functional is a subset of procedural
23:55:35 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. Quantising computing like that would be a bit different. And interesting. ;)
23:55:39 <augur> functional is procedures that dont mutate state
23:55:44 <ehird> augur: You misunderstand what procedural style i
23:55:47 <ais523> procedural languages needn't have first-class functions
23:55:58 <augur> is different, yes true
23:56:08 <pikhq> C, for example, is quite a procedural language.
23:56:10 <augur> but even then, functional isnt really a subset of declarative
23:56:16 <ehird> procedural is generally just used to mean imperative
23:56:18 <augur> because functional still defines how
23:56:19 <ehird> augur: it is, though
23:56:28 <FunctorSal> not having first class function is bat shit insane
23:56:28 <ehird> it strictly is a subset, most all classifications agree
23:56:45 <augur> well then its an odd definition of declarative
23:56:50 <augur> since functional definitions are not how at all
23:56:53 <pikhq> FunctorSal: There's a number of languages that are bat-shit insane.
23:56:56 <ehird> augur: when you say 'declarative', you're meaning 'logical'
23:57:00 <ehird> logical languages infer data from rules
23:57:01 <ais523> I suppose a language like Lisp is, in theory, a subset of Prolog in terms of the sorts of things you can do with it
23:57:05 <ais523> you need never backtrack, after all
23:57:10 <pikhq> FWIW, C++ is soon going to cease to be bat-shit insane by that notion.
23:57:11 <ais523> but Lisp is powerful for other reasons
23:57:17 <ehird> pikhq: no it's not
23:57:23 <ehird> pikhq: it's going to not fulfill one criterium
23:57:31 <ehird> that criterium never claimed exclusivity
23:57:34 <augur> what do you mean by Declarative\Logic
23:57:43 <ais523> but atm, C++ is a pretty good definition of insane
23:57:46 <pikhq> ehird: Fair enough.
23:57:54 <ehird> augur: declarative languages are not the same as logical ones
23:57:58 <ais523> I mean, even Perl has its own sort of internal logic
23:57:58 <ehird> logical is-subset-of declarative
23:58:02 <ehird> functional is-subset-of declarative
23:58:12 <ais523> where does behavioural go?
23:58:12 <augur> What do you mean by Declarative\Logic
23:58:23 <ehird> "Declarative\Logic"?
23:58:27 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah; "shell scripts on crack" is at least a design decision.
23:58:36 <augur> yes. Declarative Set-Minus Logic
23:58:42 <ehird> declarative is pretty much "all languages where you don't describe what to do in order"
23:58:55 <ais523> but by that definition, VHDL is declarative
23:59:01 <ehird> augur: functional, some part of behavioural (not the reactionary code which may be imperative)
23:59:05 <augur> ah ok, so you mean languages without time ordering
23:59:05 <ais523> actually, it might be, that's a good classification
23:59:16 <augur> i see. well in that case ok.
23:59:16 <ehird> augur: well, that's a definition that almost fits
23:59:24 <ehird> VHDL is time-ordered, but you have to do it manually
23:59:27 <ehird> but it's not do a; do b; do c
23:59:38 <pikhq> ehird: Functional can be considered a declarative language because there is no requirement that the function definition have anything to do with how its results are computed.
23:59:40 <ais523> it's whenever a changes, b changes 10 seconds later
23:59:49 <pikhq> ehird: Erm. Subset of declarative.
23:59:54 <augur> so ehird: for what X does Functional + Logic + X = Declarative?
00:00:20 <ehird> augur: declarative behavioural languages, maybe array languages if you don't count them as functional
00:00:23 <ehird> perhaps some other fringe stuff
00:00:28 <ehird> oh, and things like VHDL
00:00:31 <ehird> call that the crackhead category
00:00:47 <pikhq> ehird: You failed to mention some DSLs.
00:00:56 <ehird> pikhq: they fall into a subset
00:00:59 * ais523 finally finishes the Rubicon bubble-sort that coppro started
00:01:01 <ehird> sql is array sorta
00:01:08 <ehird> augur: behavioural is "when a, b"
00:01:16 <ehird> if the b part is imperative — it often is — not declarative
00:01:19 <augur> event driven, you mean?
00:01:21 <ehird> if it's not, declarative
00:01:26 <ehird> augur: yes, pretty much
00:01:30 <ehird> vhdl fits under that, too
00:01:51 <pikhq> ehird: That's pretty interesting.
00:02:12 <ehird> FunctorSal: use the /nick, luke
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00:25:45 <ehird> ais523: microsoft somehow just made one of their products majorly worse
00:25:50 <ehird> instead of just chipping at their good parts
00:26:20 <ehird> ais523: outlook 2010 will use microsoft word for composing and rendering html emails
00:26:25 <ehird> thus giving this "upgrade": http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3322/3637814200_a2aa59bc89_o.jpg
00:26:39 <ehird> oh, and inflicting a new generation of charts, graphs and other horribilities right in the toolbar
00:26:46 <ehird> so that people use them more and everyone else suffers more.
00:26:56 <ais523> wait, what if Word isn't installed?
00:27:10 <ehird> ais523: outlook is part of office
00:28:21 <ehird> even if they introduced word as the editor
00:28:25 <ehird> they could at least use IE's rendering engine
00:28:43 <ais523> outlook is hated by everyone on the Internet who doesn't use it, anyway
00:28:50 <ais523> have you seen how bad Outlook-composed emails are?
00:28:59 <ais523> but then, Word's HTML is worse
00:29:21 <ais523> fun fact: when OpenOffice.org and Word convert the same Word document to HTML, OOo's output renders better in IE
00:30:19 * ehird sees the orangered envelope on less wrong, jumps for a second
00:30:27 <ehird> That's new. Then again, it's only been a day.
00:31:28 <pikhq> *Word* for composing emails?
00:32:37 <ais523> ooh, put a macro virus in one
00:32:42 <pikhq> I mean, truly, positively, absolutely retarded.
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00:41:59 <ais523> still, it could be worse; they could be using Outlook as Word's rendering engine
00:56:47 <ehird> ais523: grok law would have a field day with this one:
00:56:52 <ehird> [[Having said that, I find the Plug-In problem particularly interesting. Gnu.org says: “If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the plug-ins. This means the plug-ins must be released under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license, and that the terms of the GPL must be
00:56:55 <ehird> followed when those plug-ins are distributed.”
00:56:57 <ehird> However, what happens if, say, a commercial application has a plug-in architecture like the one described above, and that commercial app is cloned by a GPL-covered project. The GPL project would try to replicate the commercial app’s Plug-In API in order to allow the plug-ins for the commercial app to run inside the GPL’d app. Would that mean that the mere existence of this clone app would make closed-source plug-ins for the commercial app illegal?]]
00:57:02 <ehird> i hope it's true, that'd be brilliant
01:00:09 <ais523> it isn't, that's the libreadline argument
01:00:27 <ais523> which nobody but RMS believes, because in the same situation the existence of the closed-source program would make open-source plugins for the open-source app illegal
01:00:33 <ehird> ais523: rms says his lawyers think the libreadline argument is true
01:00:47 <ehird> the discordian in me hopes they're right
01:00:47 <ais523> ehird: yes, but is he really going to hire lawyers who don't?
01:01:03 <ehird> i'd start an outlawing spree
01:01:43 <ais523> bear in mind that BSD's lawyers disagree with the libreadline argument
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01:06:29 <pikhq> It's at least complete bullshit with a commercial app for which a GPL-covered project has the same plugin API.
01:07:40 <ehird> heh thought that was a cocoa class for a second
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01:23:56 <ehird> FunctorSalad_: you should change your name to Sal "Functor" Lastname
01:29:24 <ehird> FunctorSalad_: because you're FunctorSal
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01:31:29 <FunctorSalad_> (actually, I just needed another alternative nick because of my frequent connection losses)
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02:08:40 <ehird> pikhq: "In fact, all data items are treated as infinite lists of length 1. Other infinite lists may be longer."
02:09:12 <pikhq> ehird: Where's that a quote from?
02:09:21 <ehird> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haskell, which is otherwise a really shit article.
02:11:12 <pikhq> The "Haskell" game box there is decent. Otherwise.
02:52:42 <olsner> well, it's *meant* to be a really shit article
02:53:43 <pikhq> olsner: No, we mean it's not funny.
02:54:02 <pikhq> "Shit" in the context of Uncyclopedia means incoherent rambling instead of humor.
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03:41:39 <Zuu> "PERL is based on the write-only programming paradigm. Since it cannot be read, the costs associated with peer reviews, coding standards, and other so-called industry best-practices are completely eliminated. This is the primary reason that Amazon.com can charge so little for its goods and services."
03:42:17 <ais523> <ieaddons> An error occured while that page was being displayed. Someone is looking into this problem. Thanks for your patience.
03:42:33 <ais523> I decided to click the button to install an IE addon, while in Firefox for Linux, with NoScript turned on
03:42:37 <ais523> and that was the result I got
03:43:18 <Zuu> Not like you gave it much to work with :P
03:43:32 <ais523> I also like the "that page" in the error message
03:44:14 <ais523> as for Perl, it isn't that bad
03:44:17 <ais523> it can be, but it usually isn't
03:44:27 <ais523> one of the projects I'm working on atm is pretty maintainable Perl
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04:25:14 <pikhq> Maintainable Perl?
04:25:27 <pikhq> You should submit it to the International Unobfuscated Perl Code Contest.
04:26:31 <augur> international unobfuscated perl code contest
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09:51:09 -!- asiekierka has set topic: tharr past the river droves, where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the Konami Code AT ALL TIMES | UUDDLRLRBASTART.
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13:33:16 -!- Deewiant has set topic: tharr past the river droves, where implementing continuations in INTERCAL is commonplace but celebrating australian mailman reminder day for an entire week is weird | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the Konami Code AT ALL TIMES | ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA[start].
13:34:27 <ais523> someone find a start button in Unicode
13:38:02 <Deewiant> Searching for neither "start" nor "begin" gave anything useful
13:45:12 * ais523 wonders why there'd be a requirement for the topic to contain the Konami Code
14:01:51 <Deewiant> It evidently went from your 'the phrase "esoteric programming languages"' to 'the phrase "illegal discombobulation ribcage"' and now to 'the Konami Code'
14:05:19 <Deewiant> Heh, http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/8y4sl/odd_cats_eye_technologies_haskell_projects/
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16:07:07 <pikhq> Huh. Getnoo supports Windows.
16:11:52 <fizzie> You should still, using the U+20e3 combining enclosing keycap, say A⃣ and B⃣.
16:12:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Not supported here.
16:13:15 <fizzie> Well, there's also the circled Ⓐ and Ⓑ but those don't look very buttony.
16:13:24 <ais523> fizzie: those are used in manuals
16:13:40 <ais523> and on many controllers, those buttons are circular
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16:36:04 <ehirdiphone> Also, "International Unobfuscated Perl Contest" made me laugh.
16:38:18 <ehirdiphone> Apparently part of my weird economy-of-expression tendencies have remained even though I'm not having any trouble typing fast and accurately on the iPhone now for some strange reason.
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17:48:22 <ais523> you joining and leaving because the channel was dead
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17:49:23 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Well, the iPhone doesn't multitask.
17:49:42 <ehirdiphone> Not gonna sit here staring at the screen like a doofus :)
17:49:54 <asiekierka> If I ever make a game on a retro console
17:50:07 <asiekierka> Pressing the Konami Code enters you ino an esolang interpreter
17:53:16 <ehirdiphone> It'd be nice if you could hold down the home button and tap "Background", then open a Switcher app and get a list of backgrounded windows w/ screenshots. Doing multitasking is hard from a mobile UI perspective.
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17:55:41 <ehirdiphone> …it wouldn't stop mistakes like that, though.
17:56:50 <ehirdiphone> Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it.
17:57:20 <ehirdiphone> Then holding down home in a suspending app would give you a Quit button.
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19:07:39 <oerjan> <ehirdiphone> Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it.
19:08:06 <oerjan> if the iphone doesn't have true multitasking, won't irc disconnect due to lack of PING answering anyhow?
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21:04:50 <unikat> !bfjoust dumb +++++++++[>-]
21:05:03 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dumb: 0.0
21:08:01 <unikat> !bfjoust dumc +>-->->->-->->[[-]-]
21:08:11 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dumc: 0.0
21:09:03 <oerjan> i think that one never moves far enough to reach the opponent flag
21:11:19 <unikat> yes you're right. i'm still adopting to brainfuck and may be doing some stupid stuff; hope it's okay to clutter the logs with my all-zero scored entries.
21:11:35 <unikat> !bfjoust dumd +>-->->->-->->[>[-]-]
21:11:44 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dumd: 0.0
21:12:23 <oerjan> oh and that loop is unlikely to run, because it's probably 0 at the beginning
21:13:39 <oerjan> it's fine to test, it's not like there's a conversation going on anyway
21:14:22 <oerjan> it was much more noisy here when bfjoust was added to EgoBot in the first place :)
21:15:13 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e >-(>[-[-[++++]]>]<-)*35
21:15:21 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 0.0
21:15:48 <unikat> okay, I think i am going to re-read the rules...
21:16:54 <oerjan> i understand the competition may be rather fierce these days
21:17:11 <oerjan> so it may be hard to get points even with a working program
21:18:27 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e ++++++(>)*10([-]>)*20
21:18:33 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 3.8
21:22:50 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e (>)*10([-]>)*20
21:22:56 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 4.0
21:24:58 <Deewiant> Linking to the high scores might be in order, but I forget the URL
21:25:05 <unikat> !bfjoust dum_e (>)*10 ( []> )*20
21:25:14 <EgoBot> Score for unikat_dum_e: 3.5
21:25:22 <unikat> well i have the list open in a browser window, it's at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
21:26:22 <unikat> so far. good night to all
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23:09:00 <ehird> 18:07 oerjan: <ehirdiphone> Maybe apps could specify whether they suspend by default, and on tapping home it animates the window going in to the switcher icon and increases a count of apps blob on it.
23:09:00 <ehird> 18:08 oerjan: if the iphone doesn't have true multitasking, won't irc disconnect due to lack of PING answering anyhow?
23:09:03 <ehird> I'm talking about implementing it in the OS. The iPhone just uses stripped-down OS X and has processes; it's just that apps are quit when you defocus them.
23:17:20 <pikhq> Because Apple is lame.
23:25:18 <ehird> pikhq: Please come back when you've implemented a simple-enough-to-not-need-thinking, elegant way of implementing multitasking on a mobile touchscreen with extremely low processing power and memory.
23:25:25 <ehird> Oh, and this on a UNIX based system.
23:26:01 <pikhq> 400 MHz is extremely low processing power now?
23:26:21 <ehird> pikhq: For a full UNIX/OS X system, absolutely.
23:26:34 <ehird> pikhq: They DID bring out the expensive iPhone 3G S just to bunk it up to 600Mhz...
23:26:50 <pikhq> ... Faster than any UNIX system until about the mid-90s is extremely low?
23:27:01 <ehird> Modern OS X system, dude.
23:27:20 <Deewiant> I was on 400 MHz until 2001 or something
23:27:22 <ehird> Anyway, fact is that (a) UI and (b) processes suckin' up mah extremely limited kilobytes of RAM are gonna kill it.
23:27:39 <ehird> Deewiant: 400mhz until 2001? That's...not common
23:27:48 <pikhq> Deewiant: *Any* system. I think Sun started shipping systems of that speed in like 95...
23:28:00 <ehird> Can we get back to the main point
23:28:07 <ehird> It's a modern OS X system
23:28:10 <Deewiant> pikhq: Yeah, ok, I was thinking consumer x86.
23:28:13 <ehird> Something with beefy requirements.
23:28:23 <ehird> Also, megahertz myth, man.
23:28:40 <Deewiant> I went from a 400 MHz Pentium-something to a 1200 MHz Duron; wikipedia says they came out in August 2001
23:28:48 <pikhq> The original has 128MB RAM, the GS has 256MB RAM...
23:28:51 <Deewiant> And I don't think it was new at the time
23:28:56 <Deewiant> So it was probably 2002 or something
23:29:12 <ehird> pikhq: Mixed up kilo/mega
23:29:20 <ehird> megabytes is basically kilobytes compared to desktop ram sizes.
23:29:26 <Deewiant> 400MHz / 128MB ran Windows XP just fine
23:29:37 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, even if you've got the processing power you still haven't invented an intuitive UI.
23:30:18 <pikhq> ehird: Small dock at the bottom for running tasks. BAM.
23:30:37 <pikhq> Takes up screen estate, unfortunately, but that's rather intuitive, at least.
23:30:46 <ehird> One vague line that gives no details whatsoever. Gee, I'm gonna skip the user tests and go straight to production.
23:31:18 <ehird> omg, another vague, non-clarifying line. Steve, this is revolutionary.
23:31:32 <pikhq> ... Saying "exactly what OS X has" is vague?
23:32:07 <ehird> pikhq: so when you hit an application icon — ANY one, even ones that don't need suspending — it'll appear in the dock at tiny size and pop up a window?
23:32:13 <ehird> And then take up screen real estate ALL THE TIME?
23:32:23 <ehird> And every process will be multitasked taking up valuable resources?
23:32:27 <ehird> Your idea is shit.
23:32:51 <pikhq> ehird: 256MB and 600MHz isn't exactly 'scarce resources'.
23:33:21 <ehird> Not many people have 3G Ss, and dude, we're not running microöptimized software on a bare-bones OS.
23:33:35 <ehird> The typical iPhone usecase, also, involves a lot of switching around applications that DON'T NEED SUSPENDING.
23:33:41 <ehird> It's the exception, not the rule, by far.
23:34:26 <pikhq> ehird hasn't the foggiest clue what a system with those specs can do.
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23:35:08 <ehird> But you're being a total idiot with your simply false assumptions of how the iPhone's OS works, how applications are written for it, its performance characteristics and the typical usecase.
23:35:20 <ehird> So I'm pretty much gonna ignore your "Apple are stupid I'm so much better at inventing my one-line multitasking system" thing.
23:35:49 <pikhq> Multitasking is trivial, ehird.
23:37:24 <pikhq> Hell, another way to do it: send programs a message indicating that they're being switched out. The program can choose to close. Have a screen in the program menu for running apps.
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23:57:06 <fizzie> FWIW, I too would dislike the "thou shalt only have one third-party program running at a time" rule, and would rather take some sort of not-perfect multitasking over not-there-at-all simplicity. But I guess it's not the Apply way to do things.
23:57:45 <ehird> This is the company that took three OS releases to make sure copy and pasting was absolutely flawless.
23:57:54 <ehird> Yeah; ugly-but-works is very much not the Apple way.
23:58:25 <fizzie> And I can think of exactly those two scenarios everyone seems to mention; a GPS track-where-you-were application and the IRC client. So I guess they'd be reasonable common.
23:58:55 <ehird> Two. Out of thousands of apps.
23:59:00 <ehird> Yes, very common...
23:59:11 <ehird> fizzie: btw, most irc clients have a built-in safari window so you don't lose IRC when clicking links
23:59:21 <ehird> which pretty much covers most "omg i focused away" things
23:59:30 <ehird> i'd love multitasking but it's not a simple problem
23:59:33 <fizzie> That doesn't sound very elegant either, to me. Of course no-one asks me.
00:00:56 <ehird> fizzie: I think my apps-can-specify-whether-to-multitask-or-not is best; if you home-button on a multitasking one, you see it warp into the "Open Applications" icon (not just away into the void), and its little red knob increases count. If you want to quit a multitasking app instead of suspending it, if you hold down home you'll get three buttons: Force Quit (what holding down does now), Quit, and Cancel.
00:01:14 <fizzie> It's just that my five years old Symbian-7.0s-or-something "smart"phone can do the thing. As for UI, it doesn't even try to do anything more than a single application on-screen at a time. It's just that you can use the "switch" button to select which one you want. Oh, and there's some sort of notification system thing where a backgrounded app can put a speech-bubble-like thing on there.
00:01:26 <pikhq> ehird: That would be a decent solution.
00:01:34 <ehird> That way, only things like IRC clients run in the background; it's easy to see when you background an app vs quitting it; there's visual notification you have backgrounded apps open; and you can choose not to background an app.
00:03:58 <fizzie> Well, I wouldn't mind that. Though I still would be annoyed if I had to quit any sort of complicated-task application just because I wanted to jot down a note. Or was there already some things you still could do without quitting an application? (Though I guess it doesn't matter, I don't see myself iPhonizing anyway.)
00:04:32 <ehird> fizzie: Well, if you held down the home button, the "Quit" would turn into "Suspend" for non-multitasking apps.
00:04:35 <ehird> So you could do that.
00:05:01 <ehird> But I'm sure they've thought about it and I'm sure my trivial idea has been brought up.
00:05:07 <ehird> It's not terribly intuitive for users, I'd think.
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00:15:51 <fizzie> Eh, I think I'll sleep. Have to wake up in 5 hours to be at a church; there's this confirmation thing of the wife's parents' godchild, and for some reason they told me to attend to. Even though oddly enough I seem to start to feel mildly (physically) unwell in any sort of religionistic loci. Strange, that.
00:16:10 <ehird> fizzie: "religionistic loci" is a brilliant phrase.
00:16:55 <fizzie> I thought "church" would be too common a word, and anyway had already used it once.
00:17:04 <fizzie> I guess it's some sort of incompatibility. Anyway, nights.
00:17:51 <ehird> fizzie: Go there dressed up as Charles Darwin. Including the beard.
00:17:57 <ehird> ...do it then, rather.
00:20:36 <augur> myndzi: \o/ \o/ \o/
00:20:56 <augur> sorry, i just wanted to get some myndzinian \o/ing
00:21:04 <ehird> augur: "Augur" was a command.
00:21:29 <Slereah> _o_ /o/ \o\ _o/ \o_ /o_ _o\ \o/ /o\
00:21:30 <myndzi> /< >\ /< /< |\ /`\ /< /`\ /|
00:21:32 <ehird> myndzi's script amuses my client; sure, it does mIRC naming, BUT YOU DID NOT ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT I USE A PROPORTIONAL FONT!
00:22:04 <ehird> augur: Here I was, thinking I was going to like, NOT die.
00:22:14 <augur> well i didnt say i was a very INSIGHTFUL augur
00:22:22 <pikhq> ehird: Proportional fonts are t3h lame.
00:22:48 <augur> unless you're writing real documents.
00:22:49 <ehird> pikhq: Don't say such things or someone will sodomize you with typography.
00:22:52 <augur> in which case they're wonderufl.
00:24:11 <ehird> Like unto a bitch.
00:25:09 <ehird> Like unto a virgin bitch.
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04:22:11 <zzo38> Freenode doesn't support + type channels!
04:22:31 <pikhq> Which is of course lame.
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05:21:42 <augur> whats a + type channel?
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05:29:58 <augur> god that was such a horrible movie
05:43:10 <augur> oh is that about the fight at the end?
05:43:20 <augur> i skipped that part.
05:48:17 <CESSMASTER> then why did you bother sitting through any of the movie at all?
05:51:31 <augur> i wanted to see what it was like
05:51:36 <augur> so i can say from experience that it was shit
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10:16:00 <oerjan> <ehird> fizzie: Go there dressed up as Charles Darwin. Including the beard. <-- um most european churches are not creationist afaik, so it would just look silly, not majorly offensive.
10:16:35 <oerjan> they'd think he'd gone nuts, and they would be right.
10:17:16 <oerjan> (heck, most _american_ churches are probably not creationist either.)
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16:14:24 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/langs.png
16:14:34 <Slereah> This is the first time I ever heard of esolangs
16:26:43 <Slereah> WHY ARE YOU SO SILLY LOOKING INTERCAL
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18:46:29 <oerjan> of course not. _i_ am INTERCAL. also, napoleon.
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18:49:52 <oerjan> ais523 on the other hand is a turing machine. also, jesus.
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18:52:03 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not a Turing machine, I don't have infinite memory
18:52:15 <Slereah> Are you a finite state machine?
18:52:31 <Slereah> Wait, I guess not, you can't have infinite input
18:52:42 <Slereah> What's the word for really finite machines
18:52:48 <oerjan> ais523: sure you do, you just need to work on your left/right stepping
18:53:37 <oerjan> i'm not sure there's a difference.
18:53:41 <Slereah> oerjan : But the earth is wrapping
18:53:45 <oerjan> finite state = bounded-storage...
18:54:02 <oerjan> unless it's only asymptotically bounded in the input.
18:54:03 <Slereah> oerjan : But finite state can do infinite output or input
18:54:17 <oerjan> well so can bounded-storage, surely?
18:54:32 <oerjan> input and output don't need to be stored, after all
18:54:54 <Slereah> Well, yeah, but in the real world, they exist in some way
18:54:55 <oerjan> is there an actual technical difference...
18:55:38 <oerjan> Slereah: it's not very reassuring that the first google hit on bounded storage machine is the esolangs wiki
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18:56:39 <fizzie> There's also the "real" concept of linear-bounded automata.
18:56:58 <oerjan> oh it's technically different, but not in a way that changes the abstract computability class, i think
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18:57:35 <oerjan> bounded-storage machine = like tm but has bounded length tape, finite state automaton = has no tape at all
18:58:38 <oerjan> for tms, the input and output is included in the tape
18:58:46 <oerjan> so it really is different
18:59:47 <oerjan> or, well, the article discusses both bounded and unbounded input
19:00:27 <fizzie> And the linear-bounded automata has a tape whose length is a linear function of the initial input, to summarize it as briefly.
19:01:59 <oerjan> yeah well that's just a special case of space complexity
19:03:16 <oerjan> since linear is big enough to include the original input, it is. but for smaller complexity classes one uses a more subtle method.
19:03:33 <fizzie> It's still an interesting special case because it's the automaton-thing that corresponds to context-sensitive grammars.
19:04:30 <oerjan> for smaller classes one uses extra tapes. the input and output tapes can be as long as you want, but you can _only_ read and write to them, respectively.
19:04:59 <oerjan> while the actual working tape has length O(f(n)) where n is the length of the input tape.
19:05:24 <fizzie> The "BSMs with bounded input" esolang subsection's explanation why it's less powerful than a FSM is (in my mind, anyway) more complicated than the alternative trivial thing, which would be "bounded input == finite language == obviously strictly less powerful than a FSM".
19:05:49 <oerjan> this way you can meaningfully talk about logspace e.g. (a very interesting class i think)
19:08:27 <fizzie> Complexity people are not very user-friendly with their abbreviations. I mean, just the list at http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo is... not trivial.
19:14:58 <oerjan> i expect a lot of them are quite obscure
19:16:39 <oerjan> some like L, P, NP may have special abbreviations because they are so important. others may have special abbreviations because they are so radical no old notation fits for them :D
19:17:21 <oerjan> but there are also the parametrized classes like TIME() NTIME() SPACE() NSPACE()
19:17:50 <oerjan> those are probably as userfriendly as you can get
19:19:36 <oerjan> and things like PSPACE/EXPTIME/EXPSPACE don't _quite_ fit into them, because they are not the SPACE() and TIME() of single functions...
19:19:54 <oerjan> i suppose someone could clean it up a lot if they wanted to though.
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21:17:44 <ehird> 09:16 oerjan: <ehird> fizzie: Go there dressed up as Charles Darwin. Including the beard. <-- um most european churches are not creationist afaik, so it would just look silly, not majorly offensive.
21:17:48 <ehird> but darwin looks fucking awesome
21:17:52 <ehird> 09:17 oerjan: (heck, most _american_ churches are probably not creationist either.)
21:18:11 <pikhq> Most that are sane are.
21:18:41 <pikhq> And the sane ones are invariably in major population centers.
21:19:04 <oerjan> um how can you be sane and creationist?
21:19:06 <pikhq> The East Coast, for example, only has sane churches (from my experience)
21:19:17 <pikhq> oerjan: s/Most/All/
21:19:39 <oerjan> pikhq: are you reading my sentence backwards?
21:19:41 <pikhq> Man, when I went to Boston, it was weird... Churches flew gay pride flags.
21:19:52 <ehird> 18:08 fizzie: Complexity people are not very user-friendly with their abbreviations. I mean, just the list at http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo is... not trivial.
21:19:54 <ehird> it's like chemistry!
21:19:54 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm being weird.
21:20:14 <oerjan> pikhq: you mean incomprehensible
21:20:26 <ehird> pikhq: you are reading it backwards :)
21:20:36 <ehird> you're saying all sane churches are creationist wrt what oerjan said
21:20:50 <pikhq> Which is the exact opposite of what I mean.
21:21:12 <ehird> 21:19 oerjan: um how can you be sane and creationist? ← you know, there's two simple substitutions I could do here, and I'll only do one for sake of not upsetting people
21:21:22 <ehird> um how can you sane and in #esoteric?
21:21:32 <pikhq> Do the other one, please.
21:21:55 <ehird> no, you'll lynch me :D
21:22:27 <oerjan> we are insane, remember?
21:22:29 <ehird> kay then: um how can you sane and religious?
21:22:29 <pikhq> I'm nearly a complete pacifist here, man. ;)
21:22:45 * ehird is sodomized by a nearby pack of bears
21:23:17 <oerjan> i didn't know he had a family
21:23:27 <ehird> actually, I'm referencing the bible.
21:23:32 <fizzie> So the pedobear gets angry when people diss religion? That's curious.
21:23:40 <ehird> allow me to quote:
21:23:41 <pikhq> Ah, yes, the pack of bears.
21:23:51 <ehird> "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."
21:23:53 <ehird> "And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
21:24:11 <ehird> The morale? "If you call someone a baldhead, bears will fuck you up."
21:24:15 <pikhq> tare = scared, BTW.
21:24:27 <ehird> "As long as said baldhead curses you."
21:24:30 <oerjan> i vaguely recall i used that quote to chase a jehova's witness away once. haven't seen any since.
21:24:42 <oerjan> (well not the quote but that story)
21:25:04 <pikhq> Of course, that only works well on people who hold the Bible to be 100% literal truth.
21:25:12 <oerjan> *seen any near my home since
21:25:21 <ehird> pikhq: as opposed to the even crazier ones who pick at will :-P
21:25:31 <oerjan> they keep handing out pamphlets in town, of course
21:25:33 <ehird> i want some jehovah's witnesses to come by here so I can tell them I've been excommunicated
21:25:50 <ehird> terminology, ehird.
21:26:23 <ehird> http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/happy-plane.jpg Adorable.
21:26:26 <fizzie> Gah, this makes me ashamed of my country-place: http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=060810_evo_rank_02.jpg
21:27:06 <ehird> fizzie: yow; you guys have a lot of crazy people then?
21:27:15 <ehird> strange that norway and sweden are much further up
21:27:25 <ehird> aren't the three countries usually quite similar?
21:27:32 <fizzie> Yes, that's the strange bit.
21:27:35 <ehird> i mean, modulo culture
21:28:30 <pikhq> ... Only 40% of people in the US accept evolution?
21:28:42 <ehird> Where have you been?
21:28:48 <ehird> The US is a shitfest.
21:28:51 <fizzie> Admittedly they did an "intelligent design" lecture in our university and all. But that was all the work of one crazy person, I think.
21:28:58 <pikhq> I thought it was at least 50%...
21:29:23 <ehird> Anyway, you all need to GET A BRAIN! MORANS
21:29:42 * pikhq is strongly considering moving
21:30:00 <ehird> pikhq: But if you move you won't have to put your packets IN SPACE.
21:30:43 <pikhq> I don't want packets in space, I want *civilization* IN SPACE!
21:30:52 <ehird> I want to move to TIME.
21:30:56 <ehird> And put my TIME in SPACE.
21:31:39 <ehird> Every time I idly think about what country I'd like to move to, basically my main concern beyond the whole "nice set of freedoms" thing is the internet.
21:31:59 <ehird> Because I can't even get more than 6mbps here, and the best in the UK is 24mbps.
21:32:29 <pikhq> Which is pretty much on par with the US.
21:32:48 <ehird> I really don't know why people like the USA.
21:33:21 <ehird> It's not particularly pretty in most of the places, your politics are seriously right-wing, your internet is 3rd-world, an awful lot of stupid people dwell there, it's insanely corporate...
21:34:11 <pikhq> About the only thing we've got going for us is that our university system is pretty good – IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT.
21:34:27 <ehird> That's true, I'd love to go to mit.
21:34:48 <ehird> (Unfortunately there's other obstacles to that, like I don't think I'd do terribly well :P)
21:35:57 <ehird> I don't like how they've made their CS course into a practical thing.
21:36:10 <ehird> Dropping SICP, changing to Python and making you drive a stupid robot was the stupidest thing a university has ever done.
21:36:41 <pikhq> ehird, US. We've got universities with far more stupidity.
21:37:09 <pikhq> Most state-funded universities spend most of their funds on their sports teams.
21:37:31 <ehird> There are two accredited universities that I know of, one teaches creationism and the other is part of a cult :)
21:37:32 <AnMaster> <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/langs.png <-- fails to resolve as usual here.
21:37:43 <ehird> AnMaster: use opendns.
21:37:56 <ehird> it's faster to boot.
21:40:53 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Complexity people are not very user-friendly with their abbreviations. I mean, just the list at http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo is... not trivial. <-- you could say they are.... complex
21:41:07 <ehird> not funny not funny not funny
21:45:55 <ehird> "Next time you wonder to yourself why a bug exists in Microsoft software, consider the possibility that Microsoft simply want it that way."
21:46:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's faster to boot. <-- my dns is so fast I don't notice any slowness compared to opendns
21:46:59 <AnMaster> but iirc opendns did some crazy redirecting thingy for a few sites or something
21:47:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Two things.
21:47:25 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDNS#Privacy_issues.2C_conflicts_and_covert_redirection
21:47:27 <ehird> "A program that produces incorrect results twice as fast is infinitely slower." Your DNS does not resolve some sites, and besides OpenDNS is unlikely to be _slower_.
21:47:33 <ehird> You can disable that.
21:47:41 <ehird> It takes three seconds to disable everything and just give you DNS
21:48:09 <ehird> Also, that article is... not unbiased.
21:48:40 <pikhq> Use OpenNIC instead.
21:48:57 <AnMaster> "This redirection breaks some non-web applications which rely on getting an NXDOMAIN for non-existent domains, such as e-mail spam filtering, or VPN access where the private network's nameservers are consulted only when the public ones fail to resolve." <-- I use such programs btw.
21:48:57 <ehird> No, don't, unless you're part of the lunatic fringe of DNS.
21:49:02 <ehird> AnMaster: SO DISABLE IT
21:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I see. So I need to login to use this dns? That means I need to login every time my ip changes?
21:49:36 <AnMaster> Since I have a very dynamic ip that would be a PITA
21:49:47 <ehird> AnMaster: If your IP is dynamic, then yes, you need to run a program to update it. There are daemons which take up about zero usage that do it automatically.
21:49:50 <AnMaster> basically, every time the adsl modem reconnects I get a new ip
21:50:03 <ehird> That's... everyone without an explicit static IP, not "very".
21:50:10 <ehird> Most people leave their ADSL connected, though...
21:50:18 <AnMaster> ehird, too much work for one single site being broken which Slereah mentioned was broken from many other places too (see logs from 2009)
21:50:36 <ehird> AnMaster: there have been many others that you have said don't resolve.
21:50:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, but sometimes it disconnects for no obvious reason
21:50:49 <AnMaster> often when there are thunderstorms for example
21:51:04 <ehird> if you don't want to fix the resolution and don't care about it being faster, then at least don't point it out and complain about an easily fixable problem.
21:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, a few has been timing out yes. IIRC most of them did resolve
21:51:44 <ehird> I don't know. I don't remember such things because I don't care enough.
21:51:57 <ehird> "it can be faster" does not mean "it is slow".
21:51:58 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact, resolving is very snappy.
21:52:10 <ehird> Most resolvers are.
21:53:09 <ehird> I don't help lazy people attempt to make invalid, vague experiments without even a sufficient sample size or reptition
21:53:21 <ehird> AnMaster: without disabling the proxying, it may be slower.
21:54:00 <AnMaster> using resolver1.opendns.com (208.67.222.222) it is around 0.182s-0.197s to resolve irc.freenode.net
21:54:27 <ehird> (a) you're using the domain for the resolver, so you're doing two requests
21:54:34 <ehird> (b) see what I said about sample size, repetition
21:54:38 <ehird> (c) see what I said about proxying
21:54:51 <ehird> in short, your results are bullshit
21:54:59 <ehird> AnMaster: that is not "sample size".
21:55:11 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, other domains too.
21:55:27 <ehird> Furthermore, (a) and (c).
21:55:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't using domain for resolver
21:55:59 <ehird> And "AnMaster: using resolver1.opendns.com (".
21:56:09 <AnMaster> which was what I actually used
21:56:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Additionally, you're claiming you can perceive 0.02sec
21:56:16 <AnMaster> I was using the host name for clarity over irc
21:56:23 <ehird> Protip: you cannot.
21:56:32 <ehird> AnMaster: That is the difference between the two speeds.
21:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, normal resolving is 0.016 here though. dnsmasq on localhost
21:57:51 <AnMaster> but here I explicitly used my isp's one just to show you
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21:58:04 <ehird> So use dnsmasq with OpenDNS.
21:58:05 <AnMaster> ehird, also above I said: <AnMaster> <ehird> it's faster to boot. <-- my dns is so fast I don't notice any slowness compared to opendns
21:58:12 <AnMaster> means: I can't notice any difference
21:58:15 <AnMaster> "<ehird> AnMaster: Additionally, you're claiming you can perceive 0.02sec"
21:58:32 <ehird> if you can't notice any difference then which one you use doesn't matter for speed, so we defer to "it can resolve more sites".
21:58:58 <AnMaster> ehird, software daemon for the dynamic ip thing for opendns?
21:59:30 <AnMaster> searching for "opendns" in package repo yielded no results
22:00:13 <ehird> AnMaster: make an account, add a network, go to settings, ignore content filtering, click stats and logs, decheck enable, apply, advanced settings, enable dynamic IP update, uncheck typo correction and .cm, uncheck shortcuts, proxy and botnet
22:00:22 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll check for a linux program
22:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.opendns.com/support/dynamic_ip_downloads/ None for Linux, unfortunately, but http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=update+ip+opendns+linux&aq=f&oq=&aqi= might help. From the "Technical Details" tab it just seems to be a POST over https.
22:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Found it.
22:01:33 <ehird> elinks -auto-submit 1 -dump https://username:password@updates.opendns.com/nic/update?
22:01:34 <AnMaster> "Oops, you aren't using OpenDNS yet. Go back to Step 1 to set up OpenDNS." <-- wait, you can't create an account before you use their dns server? huh?
22:01:41 <ehird> AnMaster: You did it rong.
22:01:47 <ehird> It should work if you set the IPs.
22:02:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? I was going to create an account before I was going to change what resolver I'm using...
22:02:19 <ehird> Well I think you might have to
22:02:40 <ehird> AnMaster: there's one of them
22:02:40 <ehird> http://www.opendns.com/support/article/192
22:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, ddclient is for updating dyndns and such?
22:03:04 <ehird> Click the article.
22:03:09 <ehird> You can make it work for opendns.
22:03:17 <ehird> It uses the dyndns protocol.
22:03:34 <ehird> Make sure to do the tick things I said; it's the combination you need to disable all the fluff.
22:03:55 <AnMaster> yeah... also it seems I can't create the account in lynx?
22:04:03 <ehird> It does JS stuff, I think.
22:04:07 <ehird> Just use a proper browser :p
22:04:20 <ehird> Their site and the guide aren't too nice, but the service is great.
22:04:55 <AnMaster> the site isn't accessible. As in WAI. Not as in resolving.
22:05:15 <ehird> Yes, well, many sites aren't.
22:05:17 <ehird> It's a sad reality.
22:05:21 * pikhq randomly notes that someone needs to write an ECMAscript compiler
22:05:45 <ehird> AnMaster: thankfully, most actual screenreaders are far more clever than the w3c gives credit for
22:06:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, because they have to be
22:06:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Ha! With gmail I just do penguinofthegods+COMPANY@gmail.com. Then if they can spam me I can tell and shun them forever.
22:07:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you could quite easily figure out what part was the real one though...
22:07:18 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and I checked, it doesn't work on my isp :/
22:07:22 <ehird> AnMaster: No, because + is a valid character in email addresses.
22:07:30 <ehird> foo+bar+quirky@awesomemail.com is perfectly valid.
22:07:38 <ehird> And foo+bar+floopy doesn't need to be the same person.
22:07:44 <ehird> Admittedly nobody cares and you could detect, but nobody does because nobody cares.
22:08:06 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, isn't the the "redirect to the same account thing"? but with some sort of alias
22:08:29 <ehird> It's a gmail feature.
22:08:33 <fizzie> The + is just a convention there, is I guess what ehird wants to say.
22:08:38 <ehird> Gmail also ignores dots, so you can do penguinofth.egods@gmail.com
22:08:39 <fizzie> It's not exactly a gmail-only thing.
22:08:50 <ehird> I've only heard it for gmail
22:09:08 <fizzie> I think qmail used to have some sort of easy/built-in support for it too.
22:09:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I was referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mail_address#Sub-addressing
22:09:31 <fizzie> Oh, they've written an RFC about it.
22:09:44 <ehird> gmail uses - for it?
22:09:54 <ehird> because-nobody-hyphenates-words-like-lisp?
22:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, Err what has djb got to do with lisp?
22:10:31 <fizzie> I thought it was +. But I could be wrong.
22:10:39 <ehird> this-is-lisp-style-hyphenation. read-your-link-AnMaster-and-read-the-qmail-part.
22:10:46 <ehird> On the other hand, most installations of the qmail and Courier Mail Server products support the use of a hyphen '-' as a separator within the local-part, such as joeuser-tag@example.com or joeuser-tag-sub-anything-else@example.com
22:10:55 <AnMaster> anyway, I checked, none of those work on my isp
22:10:58 <ehird> So you can't have an-email-account-with-a-hyphen-in.
22:11:06 <AnMaster> guess they turned it off or something
22:11:15 <ehird> AnMaster: NOT EVEN anmaster(poop)@isp.com????????????????
22:11:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well the comment is cut out on client side iirc?
22:15:11 -!- M0ny has quit.
22:16:19 <oerjan> this-is-lisp This. Is. SPARTAAAAA.
22:17:27 <fizzie> Postfix has a "recipient_delimiter" parameter you can set to, for example, "+", but it's not on by default. And a couple of other settings that talk about what happens to those things in address-rewriting.
22:20:50 <fizzie> But + is what all the documentation examples use.
22:27:50 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:31:08 <AnMaster> ehird, this now fails to resolve some geoip thingys correctly, like google
22:31:26 <ehird> Uh, that's not right.
22:31:27 <ehird> It works fine for me.
22:31:38 <ehird> If it's going wrong, you did something wrong.
22:32:17 <ehird> geoip stuff works perfectly for me.
22:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe they have a resolver in UK but not one in Sweden?
22:32:57 <ehird> i thought you had a dns cache thing, anyway?
22:33:06 -!- nice has joined.
22:33:07 <ehird> Surely you tend to only resolve google once in 500 years?
22:33:31 <ehird> ...that doesn't mean you resolve it a lot.
22:33:34 -!- nice has left (?).
22:34:07 <AnMaster> ehird, also I didn't mean that. I meant that I get a google server that is 25 hops away according to traceroute, instead of 10 like before. One in US instead of in Europe.
22:34:17 <ehird> Yeah, that shouldn't happen
22:34:43 <ehird> Why not ask ehird, the master of OpenDNS knowledge? I'll take a look.
22:35:04 <ehird> AnMaster: As a worst-case scenario, you can add google.com to your /etc/hosts.
22:35:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Does it still say "Go to Google Sweden" on the page?
22:35:36 <AnMaster> I think their servers handle that somehow
22:35:51 <ehird> I wouldn't think google would assume country(dns)=country(user).
22:35:56 <ehird> Surely the IP they give you picks a server.
22:35:59 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and it actually says "Go to Google Sverige"
22:36:14 <AnMaster> wait... firefox is probably not using the new one *restarts firefox*
22:36:56 <ehird> Ctrl-F5 or whatever.
22:37:36 <AnMaster> ctrl-f5 didn't change it however
22:37:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Then our problem is definitely separate; it still tells me I can use the UK site.
22:37:56 <ehird> AnMaster: traceroute opendns
22:38:01 <ehird> see where there server is
22:38:37 <AnMaster> 15 hops so far and still going
22:42:04 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.ca/K72ch2Y7 (pass abcd)
22:42:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:42:22 <ehird> Why on earth did you use a password?
22:42:31 <AnMaster> ehird, because I wanted to see how it worked
22:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, just find out where the server you're using is, 'sall :P
22:43:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that trace ends up in UK
22:43:14 <AnMaster> so the opendns server is somewhere in UK clearly
22:43:24 <ehird> AnMaster: but it doesn't offer to send you to the UK google
22:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, correct. It didn't offer me anything at all
22:43:53 <AnMaster> except suggesting that I was lucky. I disagree.
22:44:23 <ehird> That's very strange. Thankfully it shouldn't affect much more than Google and you can put that in /etc/hosts. I suggest making a thread on the OpenDNS forums for a long-term solution.
22:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I do use some other geodns thingies
22:44:50 <AnMaster> lets see what happens to kernel.org
22:45:40 <AnMaster> wait, they stopped using geodns? heh
22:45:51 <ehird> September 19, 2008: mirrors.kernel.org has been flipped over to using our new GeoDNS based bind server (named-geodns). This means that, at the dns query level, our servers will attempt to direct you to the nearest / fastest kernel.org mirror for your request. This means that you no longer have to use mirrors.us.kernel.org or mirrors.eu.kernel.org to generally route you to the right place. This does mean a change to mirrors.kernel.org no longer explicitly
22:45:53 <ehird> pointing at mirrors.us.kernel.org. Additional information on named-geodns will be forth coming, check back here for an addendum soon.
22:46:13 <AnMaster> as in www.kernel.org vs. eu.kernel.org
22:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, okay, opendns dumps me on the EU ones, but if the resolver is in UK that would be suspected.
22:47:47 <ehird> AnMaster: It really should only affect things like Google; there aren't going to be all that many sites that both use GeoDNS and are big enough to have a server in multiple places in the EU.
22:48:33 <ehird> Buy some rackspace and set up a Swedish server for them :-P
22:48:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you really want Microsoft's site to load fast? :)
22:48:58 <ehird> As slow as possible plz
22:49:33 <AnMaster> anyway microsoft.com resolves to somewhere in US using both my ISP's DNS and opendns
22:49:45 <AnMaster> iirc they use microsoft.se and such too
22:49:52 <pikhq> As slow as possible still implies that it can be accesed.
22:49:57 <AnMaster> 8 nyc9-core-2.pos2-0.swip.net (130.244.194.205) 124.187 ms 125.484 ms 125.713 ms
22:49:57 <AnMaster> 9 some.new-york.router.msn.net (130.244.200.202) 127.790 ms 125.200 ms 127.039 ms
22:50:04 <ehird> some.new-york.router?
22:50:09 <AnMaster> 9 shows unusual humour for being microsoft
22:50:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm a bit scared, this shows microsoft can actually manage to not totally fail to be funny
22:50:51 <AnMaster> (sorry for double negation... I think)
22:50:57 <pikhq> Nuke it from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.
22:51:04 <ehird> AnMaster: To be honest, individual Microsofties are okay, and I imagine slipping that hostname by the bean counters would be easy enough.
22:51:11 <ehird> To be fair, rather.
22:51:40 <AnMaster> Microsofties <-- why does this sound like some sort of teddy bear...
22:52:17 <AnMaster> or maybe something clean-ex like thingy, with microfibres
22:52:28 <AnMaster> also... lycos still fails to resolve
22:52:31 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah; most of the awfulness of MS comes from their truly awful corporate structure.
22:52:35 <ehird> AnMaster: What, really?
22:52:59 <pikhq> Among other things, nobody has access to the full Windows source code.
22:53:11 <pikhq> Or API documentation, for that matter.
22:53:21 <ehird> pikhq: The buildbot sure does ;-)
22:53:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Your local one?
22:53:36 <pikhq> ehird: For obvious reasons.
22:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I flushed it... but I think maybe nss keeps one too
22:54:33 <AnMaster> so clearly there is a hidden cache somewhere
22:54:54 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/20031203024955/http://illusionary.com/GNOMEvKDE.html ;; someone should make a Windows entry for this
23:00:25 <ehird> [[So there's over 4 million lines of kernel source. Let's assume 10% is
23:00:26 <ehird> comments, so there's about 3.6 million lines left. Each of those lines
23:00:27 <ehird> has to be checked for C++ keywords. Assume that you can do about 5
23:00:29 <ehird> seconds per line (very optimistic), work 24 hours per day, and 7 days
23:00:32 <ehird> This is from a kernel developer.
23:00:34 <ehird> Translation: "What is grep?"
23:02:35 <ehird> pikhq: when you move from the US, move OS too.
23:03:00 <ehird> Kernel. Sorry, zealot ;-)
23:03:19 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, I thought you were doing some GNU/Linux terminology shit :P
23:03:21 <pikhq> I do believe that that is far too dumb.
23:03:32 <pikhq> No, just a thinko.
23:04:29 <pikhq> But seriously. Grep?
23:04:39 <AnMaster> lycos.fr fails to resolve due to broken glue upsetting dnsmasq
23:04:48 <pikhq> I can do 5 milliseconds per line, working 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.
23:04:57 <ehird> No use crying over broken clue.
23:04:57 <ehird> pikhq: 5ms per line?
23:05:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: You realise dnsmasq caches, right?
23:05:12 <ehird> pikhq: What kind of chip you got in there, a dorito?
23:05:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I think I made sure to avoid that issue
23:05:24 <ehird> More to the point... what kind of harddrive?
23:05:41 <ehird> 5ms to process a sequentially-read file?
23:06:12 <AnMaster> FYI: I just tried with bind 9.4.3... it fails too on lycos.fr
23:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: But you can look it up directly with opendns, right?
23:06:37 <ehird> So as long as you hook up your cache/proxy/etc, it should work fine.
23:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I always use local cache
23:06:58 <ehird> So hook it up to OpenDNS, and it'll work.
23:07:04 <pikhq> ehird: I was off by an order of magnitude, Mmkay?
23:07:23 <ehird> AnMaster: How about telling me what I said incorrectly? I read.
23:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it fails due to broken glue for the lycos.fr domain. This happens even with opendns. It depends on the cache software. Since using host directly on isp for it works. And on OpenDNS.
23:08:41 <ehird> Surely your cache just directly caches the OpenDNS response?
23:08:41 <AnMaster> but using dnsmasq, it gets confused by the glue so it can't resolve it
23:08:53 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you fucking read?
23:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Your rebuttal to what I say is just "you're not reading", despite the fact that I have read it all. Perhaps you should consider the unthinkable alternative: I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.
23:09:52 <ehird> Why would glue break the DNS cache? Don't they just directly cache OpenDNS' response?
23:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't know this well enough to explain it well, what I'm saying is based on logged error messages and tcpdump here. I don't understand DNS well enough internally to know *why* this is an issue.
23:10:49 <ehird> Try djbdns' dnscache?
23:10:55 <AnMaster> But some googling indicates it is due to broken glue on the domain, a phrase I heard before. IIRC there is an explaination on djb's site
23:10:58 <ehird> (if you don't mind daemontools cruft)
23:11:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I already use qmail, remember!
23:11:16 <ehird> What, on your local system?
23:11:36 <ehird> I use a mail server.
23:12:07 <ehird> AnMaster: But my system is not on 24/7
23:12:11 <ehird> What use is cron output to me?
23:12:32 <ehird> I postulate that you use a server that happens to have a graphical terminal attached to it, not a desktop.
23:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and I always have script checking logs based on white-listing regexps!
23:12:49 -!- nice has joined.
23:12:56 <AnMaster> good thing when there is a thing in /var/log/messages about SMART indicating disk is failing
23:13:05 <AnMaster> wouldn't be nice to not notice it
23:13:06 <ehird> It will be a day of infinite jest, that one where a trivial backdoor in your system causes all your data to be decrypted and stolen
23:13:37 * oerjan scribbles down AnMaster for his local chapter of Paranoiac Persecutors Anonymous
23:13:44 <ehird> oerjan: hey, that's a good idea.
23:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I am aware of that no system is perfect... But data-diodes are so damn expensive ;P
23:13:54 <ehird> I should set up a secret society to pander to all conspiracy theories, except we only do it to the paranoids.
23:14:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, Paranoiac Persecutors Anonymous?
23:14:25 <oerjan> we persecute paranoid people. anonymously.
23:14:30 <AnMaster> oh wait... read it as *panoramic*
23:14:32 <ehird> "Can I use djbdns without daemontools? Yes."
23:14:35 <ehird> http://www.fefe.de/djbdns/
23:14:57 <ehird> i only tried to set it up once and couldn't get it workin
23:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you can use anything that handles wrapping them in some way
23:15:04 <ehird> but it left a shitload of daemontools crap
23:15:22 <AnMaster> ehird, also... getting *any* MTA to work is hard.
23:15:24 <ehird> so much nicer than sysv
23:15:43 <ehird> I'm talking about dns
23:16:11 <AnMaster> there is all the "get all the dns shit right or everyone will think you are a spammer" bit too
23:16:45 <AnMaster> reverse dns, forward dns, right response, right error codes, right forward domains list, right own domains list...
23:18:12 -!- nice has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:18:21 <ehird> I'm so happy for outsourcing.
23:18:32 <ehird> (The internet services kind.)
23:23:09 <oerjan> "we're now outsourcing our email filtering to china"
23:24:13 <ehird> well i'm outsourcing your mom to your face.
23:25:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> I'm so happy for outsourcing. <-- examples?
23:25:23 <AnMaster> ehird, which specific provider is doing it?
23:25:33 <AnMaster> btw, why do you think daemontools is bad?
23:25:37 <ehird> email - google, dns - opendns
23:25:49 <AnMaster> ehird, lots of other email services
23:25:59 <ehird> google's is better.
23:26:14 <ehird> and it beats a small company; google don't have -time- to read my email.
23:26:20 <AnMaster> ehird, my own server > anyone else * (true for each sysadmin)
23:26:22 <ehird> AnMaster: pollution in the form of /service, and other things
23:26:35 <ehird> also, I have better things to do than fuck around with such things
23:26:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it should have used /etc/daemontools/service or such
23:26:42 <ehird> gmail does verything i want
23:27:09 <AnMaster> kind of like "very everything"
23:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, downside is it would be hard to differentiate from "very thing" when spoken. (As in: "the very thing")
23:28:44 <ehird> mi'e eliat xrd with some punctuation I don't care to remember
23:28:54 <ehird> also with the caveat that that lojbanization sucks.
23:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, but with the wrong punctuation it means "your wife is a big hippo"
23:29:23 <ehird> lojban would never do that to me
23:29:26 <ehird> would you lojban <3
23:29:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I seriously hope you got that reference at least!
23:30:13 <ehird> after googling, no, I still don't.
23:30:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ever read "Interesting times". I think it was that book
23:30:32 <ehird> Oh, tv tropes informs me it's terry pratchett.
23:30:46 <AnMaster> ehird, right. And a pretty famous line too
23:30:48 <ehird> — fuck, I clicked on tv tropes.
23:31:01 <AnMaster> nice and quiet evening in here then
23:31:03 <ehird> googled for the book name to escape
23:31:23 <ehird> AnMaster: tv tropes says "interesting seasons"
23:31:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I managed the art of escaping tv troupes easily
23:31:37 <ehird> googling doesn't suggest that's a real book
23:31:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wget and render to text with no links!
23:31:49 <ehird> wget? w3m -dump, bitch
23:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it's "Interesting times"
23:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, so someone messed it up on tv troupes
23:32:24 <ehird> if reading tv tropes does this, I can't imagine how bad editing would be
23:32:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you would end up making a webcomic with lego.
23:32:53 <AnMaster> (yes DMM edits on tv troupes in case you didn't know)
23:33:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I agree with the annotation
23:39:22 -!- immibis has joined.
23:40:27 <AnMaster> ehird, does the quality of the sound card really effect how much bass it can produce? comparing with a mic (using same mixer settings) between the on-board audio and the sb live card, then using audacity to plot the frequencies show that the on board card cut off frequencies below about 40-50 Hz
23:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you said something about on-board being as good?
23:40:47 <ehird> How modern is this onboard?
23:40:56 <ehird> And are frequencies <40-50hz actually audible?
23:40:57 <AnMaster> 00:11.5 Multimedia audio controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8233/A/8235/8237 AC97 Audio Controller (rev 60)
23:41:10 <AnMaster> ehird, from 2008 iirc. since I had the mobo replaced on warranty then
23:41:18 <ehird> What market range is the mobo?
23:41:20 <AnMaster> might be 2007, but it was replaced in 2008 anyway
23:41:30 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how you define those
23:41:37 <ehird> How much would it cost retail?
23:42:08 <ehird> If you don't know... how many RAM slots does it haev?
23:42:11 <AnMaster> ehird, went on warranty and they had to replace with a different brand, so no idea about the new one
23:43:16 <ehird> a quick glance suggests budget
23:43:44 <ehird> anyway, this is irrelevant if <40-50hz isn't audible
23:44:25 <immibis> Does anyone know how to embed a large (4-5MB) binary file in an executable when compiling it with gcc on windows?
23:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I can notice the difference with the dubwoofer in this recording of Vivaldi's summer (City of London Sinfonia)
23:44:41 <ehird> hmm, ok, it is audible
23:44:46 <ehird> lowest c on an 88 key piano is 32hz
23:44:57 <ehird> AnMaster: dubwoofer? Is that like a subwoofer but for extra treble?
23:44:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is very very noticeable here
23:45:13 <ehird> i hope you got my joke.
23:45:19 <ehird> anyway, then your onboard sound sucks I guess
23:45:38 <AnMaster> dub? I only know what that is in Swedish
23:45:39 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dub_music
23:45:44 <ehird> it always sounds trebley to me
23:45:55 <AnMaster> dub in Swedish is the stuff you have on winter tyres(sp?)
23:46:10 <AnMaster> to make it get a better grip on ice
23:46:20 <pikhq> ... You've got pointer metal bits on your winter tires?
23:46:35 <ehird> AnMaster: call them MËTAL TIRES
23:46:41 <ehird> Hmm, there's a thing I like about vinyl
23:46:43 <ehird> You can listen to the needle
23:46:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubbdäck
23:47:36 <pikhq> ehird: Missouri's in the South.
23:47:39 <pikhq> I used to live in Colorado.
23:47:43 <ehird> Yes, but it's south of North America.
23:47:58 <pikhq> Which tended to have rather rough winters.
23:48:15 <AnMaster> there is a .no interwiki link too
23:48:39 <pikhq> Though generally you only needed extra traction for mountain roads, and so you'd stick chains on your tires.
23:49:45 <pikhq> Ah. English is "stud".
23:49:49 <ehird> I wonder if you can get them on bicycle wheels.
23:49:54 <ehird> Bump! Bump! Bump! Bump!
23:50:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, I mean, when it is snowing so much they haven't had time to remove the snow yet.
23:50:39 <AnMaster> the plows just can't remove the snow as fast as it is falling.
23:51:09 <pikhq> In most of the US, that happens at most once a year.
23:51:10 <AnMaster> snowplows I guess is the right term
23:51:27 <pikhq> The rest of the year, studded tires just damage the roads.
23:51:44 <pikhq> Chains do the same thing, but they can be removed easily.
23:51:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, the first time every year it happens tends to be worst. Because somehow everyone is unprepared. Even though they know it happened every year before around this time of the year. +/- a week or two
23:52:08 <AnMaster> <pikhq> The rest of the year, studded tires just damage the roads. <-- indeed
23:52:35 <ehird> "C1016744Approximately the tone that a typical CRT television emits while running. "
23:52:36 <oerjan> norwegian cities (including trondheim) have a special stud tax to encourage people to use stud-free winter tires
23:52:36 <AnMaster> which is why you aren't allowed to use studded tires during the summer
23:52:45 <ehird> that file + my ears = kill
23:53:00 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_frequencies
23:53:03 <pikhq> Honestly, I didn't know you could get studded tires.
23:53:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is very common here during winter.
23:53:26 <pikhq> I guess they're banned or *something*.
23:53:38 <oerjan> oh and it's illegal to use studs in the summer
23:53:42 <pikhq> ehird: That's an annoying tone, yes.
23:53:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah it works great in cities... But not out on the countryside
23:53:54 <ehird> pikhq: all CRTs make it
23:53:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, and studs really help on ice
23:55:23 <pikhq> ehird: Believe me, I know.
23:55:33 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:55:36 <ehird> WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
23:55:37 <AnMaster> *grumble* why did anyone get the not so bright idea to put connectors on the back of desktops
23:55:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: This is why people use tire chains in the US. ;)
23:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster: aesthetics
23:55:52 <ehird> AnMaster: most modern cases have usb ports in front
23:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what? the aesthetics of a knee pressing the reset button by mistake when you bend behind the computer?
23:56:27 <ehird> Put your computer on your desk.
23:56:30 <AnMaster> also IMO aesthetics should go to hell when it makes things impractical
23:56:39 <ehird> USB ports in front is fine.
23:56:43 <ehird> Covers 90% of stuff.
23:57:26 <FireFly> Bleh, my case only has one USB port in front ._.
23:57:49 <pikhq> Moral of the story: USB needs to be about as fast as PCIe x16.
23:58:03 <pikhq> Only stick USB ports on computers.
23:58:07 <ehird> FireFly: What, not $30 important?
23:58:08 <ehird> pikhq: Yes please.
23:58:21 <ehird> Multiple port types are the suck.
23:58:41 <AnMaster> ehird err, usb for the power too?
23:58:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can gang them together for more speed. :P
23:58:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Hells yes!
23:58:56 <AnMaster> would the wall outlet be the host then?
23:58:56 <ehird> pikhq: Well, 1 gigabyte/sec is quite slow
23:59:02 <FireFly> It's not like I have that many things using USB connected to the computer at the same time
23:59:06 <AnMaster> since usb is based on host-<whatever the other one was>
23:59:12 <FireFly> And I have several ports at the back
23:59:40 <ehird> PCIe x16 = 16 gigabytes/sec
00:00:09 <ehird> AnMaster: quad 12x infiniband is 96 gigabits
00:00:14 <ehird> PCIe x16 is faster.
00:01:20 <AnMaster> ehird, is that per direction or combined?
00:01:21 <ehird> PCIe x16 could be faster though
00:01:30 <ehird> 1m4s to transfer a terabyte
00:01:34 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the total speed
00:01:48 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is half in either direction then?
00:01:54 <ehird> Effective theoretical throughput in different configurations
00:01:57 <ehird> so it's per direction.
00:02:12 <AnMaster> is it the same for infiniband?
00:02:19 <ehird> this is infiniband
00:03:01 <AnMaster> that is highly relevant. if it was total combined it would be slower than infiband.
00:03:09 <AnMaster> while if it was per direction it would be faster
00:03:33 <ehird> infiniband is still slow — "For example, the NEC SX-9 provides 128 GB/s of low-latency interconnect bandwidth between each computing node, compared to the 96 Gbit/s of an InfiniBand 12X Quad Data Rate link.[original research?])"
00:03:39 <ehird> that's 1024 gbit, beating all the others handily
00:03:59 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, the crt of the TV downstairs has a slightly lower frequency, still high one though
00:06:10 <AnMaster> how silly that the Irish archlinux mirror is faster by orders of magnitudes than the Swedish ones
00:06:24 <AnMaster> but then, heanet has always been a good mirror for me
00:06:40 <pikhq> ehird: Clearly we should have system buses faster than L1 cache.
00:06:47 <AnMaster> ^Ccc-4.4.0-4-i686 15,6M 9,8K/s 00:16:58 [#################################################################------------------------------------------] 61%
00:06:55 <AnMaster> gcc-4.4.0-4-i686 25,3M 1714,8K/s 00:00:15 [###########################################################################################################] 100%
00:07:25 <ehird> pikhq: QUANTUM BUS
00:07:34 <ehird> ↑ awesome idea in any interpretation
00:08:23 <AnMaster> ↑ awesome idea in any interpretation
00:08:35 <ehird> Mine can serve as that.
00:08:42 <AnMaster> (that is, both the "many worlds" one, and the other one)
00:08:57 <ehird> Quantum bus: because if we entangle passengers, we can fit more people on.
00:09:08 <ehird> Quantum bus: Using qubits to deliver infinite gigabytes/sec.
00:09:49 <AnMaster> Quantum bus: Don't look at it.
00:09:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:09:56 <pikhq> Quantum bus: quantising passengers into individual quantums so quantum mechanics applies.
00:10:36 <ehird> Quantum bus: We just put the bus in a superposition of at the starting point and at the destination, then someone looks at it from the starting point. Repeat until it ends up in the destination.
00:12:14 <pikhq> Quantum bus: We check to see if the bus has spontaneously leaped to the destination. If not, we destroy the universe.
00:12:34 <ehird> that works given quantum immortality :)
00:12:46 <ehird> well okay also many worlds but that's obvious
00:12:52 <ehird> and quantum immortality depends on MWI
00:13:33 <ehird> quantum immortality is stupid anyway.
00:13:44 <ehird> if it's true, we never sleep :)
00:15:51 <AnMaster> ehird, got a better suggestion for what it is meant for? That is, for accessing remote files across a protected network
00:16:03 <AnMaster> stuff like accessing music files on your file server
00:16:26 <ehird> But nfs has all the problems of rpc, and is crufty.
00:16:31 <AnMaster> ehird, then nfs rocks compared to the alternatives.
00:16:40 <AnMaster> I guess you would use cifs (samba)
00:16:50 <ehird> I don't give a shit. Plenty of things fit said criteria and are still crap.
00:17:05 <AnMaster> ehird, nfs is the best one though. And it works.
00:17:10 <ehird> Saying "oh, it's great because it exists!" is a very stupid thing to say.
00:17:25 <AnMaster> I didn't say "because it exists"
00:17:26 <ehird> AnMaster: plan 9 removes the cruft but keeps the fundamental issues.
00:17:30 <ehird> nevertheless, it is therefore fundamentally better.
00:17:35 <ehird> So, your statement is false.
00:17:40 <AnMaster> it is great, because it works and is quite simple to get working
00:18:33 <AnMaster> ehird, does linux and freebsd support it? IIRC Linux kernel config has some experimental "Plan9 resourcesharing fs" thingy or such
00:18:55 <AnMaster> but since the client is a freebsd machine
00:18:57 <ehird> I don't really care or know, but it's just 9P, and there are Linux implementation of 9P.
00:19:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P
00:19:19 <ehird> A kernel client driver for Linux is part of the v9fs project
00:19:25 <ehird> v9fs - u9fs: 9P implementation for Unix-like operating systems
00:19:37 <ehird> It's a loadable Linux module.
00:19:39 <ehird> $ mount -t 9p 10.10.1.2 /mnt/9
00:19:39 <ehird> $ mount -t 9p `namespace`/acme /mnt/9 -o trans=unix,uname=$USER
00:19:59 <ehird> AnMaster: v9fs does bsd too it seems
00:20:08 <ehird> http://swik.net/v9fs
00:20:24 <ehird> OK, nothing FreeBSDy there
00:20:28 <ehird> Documentation can be found in the Linux kernel source under Documentation/filesystems/9p.txt with a snapshot captured here
00:20:32 <ehird> AnMaster: so good news: it's in Linux mainline.
00:20:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> Creepy logo. <-- so true
00:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, doesn't help me when I use various other OS
00:21:18 <ehird> AnMaster: http://9p.cat-v.org/implementations
00:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I use other *BSD too a lot. Only reason I avoid OpenSolaris is the license :P
00:21:36 <ehird> 9puffs9p2000ClientCNetBSDBSDUserspace file system driver implemented on top of puffs.
00:21:40 <AnMaster> (this doesn't imply OpenSolaris is a subset of *BSD)
00:21:54 <ehird> puffs looks netbsd-only though.
00:22:08 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of puffs, but then netbsd is the bsd I use least
00:22:15 <ehird> AnMaster: great success —
00:22:16 <ehird> http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man4/9pfuse.html
00:22:34 <ehird> Make sure you have FUSE, install Plan 9 from User Space.
00:22:41 <ehird> (Don't use your package manager; it shits all over the namespace.)
00:22:55 <ehird> (So putting it in /usr is very unwise.)
00:23:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I would highly doubt freebsd would put anything from ports in /usr
00:23:28 <ehird> You need /opt/plan9 for sanity, really
00:23:40 <AnMaster> //usr is for distro stuff (as in base system) /usr/local for stuff from ports
00:23:45 <AnMaster> /usr is for distro stuff (as in base system) /usr/local for stuff from ports
00:23:56 <ehird> AnMaster: As for the file server, what OS does it run? You could run it on Plan 9, which would be fun, but I think there's servers for Linux/BSD.
00:24:19 <ehird> AnMaster: http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man4/9pserve.html
00:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, the file server runs OpenBSD in this case.
00:24:39 <AnMaster> but in this specific case: openbsd
00:24:45 <ehird> That doesn't handle mounting an actual real filesystem though.
00:25:00 <ehird> AnMaster: The link I made
00:25:01 <AnMaster> ehird, a real file system is all I care about sharing
00:25:12 <ehird> It's just that 9P is a very abstract protocol
00:25:23 <AnMaster> I have no interest in sharing /proc, nice as it may be, it isn't my goal in this case
00:25:41 <ehird> a lot of 9P shared stuff is things that simply don't exist in /
00:25:58 <ehird> and sharing a real fs is trivial on Plan 9
00:26:25 <AnMaster> ehird, that is my general experience with "very abstract and flexible" == hard to use in practise
00:26:33 <ehird> then you have never used plan 9
00:26:41 <AnMaster> but meh, maybe someone managed to combine those two attributes
00:26:44 <ehird> libixp9p2000Client ServerCAll Unix variantsMITOriginally as part of the wmii project.
00:26:57 <ehird> http://repo.cat-v.org/libixp/
00:27:00 <AnMaster> ehird, good examples: ALSA, OpenAL.
00:27:09 <ehird> not sure what "libixp lacks lib9p's file trees." means, but it may be a quick-and-easy way to serve 'er up
00:27:18 <ehird> AnMaster: scheme. plan 9.
00:27:41 <AnMaster> but I think there are more cases of getting it wrong than right.
00:27:48 <ehird> "[Systems] should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary."
00:28:10 <ehird> — Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme, s/Programming languages/Systems/.
00:28:39 <AnMaster> ehird, and this will let me do: sudo mount /mnt/phoenix
00:28:41 <ehird> 6 /* This is a simple 9P file server which serves a normal filesystem
00:28:43 <ehird> 7 * hierarchy. While some of the code is from wmii, the server is by
00:28:44 <AnMaster> vlc /mnt/phoenix/musik/kraus/vol1/track02.flac
00:28:49 <ehird> so libixp is definitely what you want
00:29:06 <ehird> AnMaster: mounting will be:
00:29:18 <ehird> AnMaster: sudo mount ADDRESS /mnt/phoenix
00:29:25 <ehird> AnMaster: that's a FUSE thing
00:29:27 <ehird> it's just a FUSE filesystem
00:29:38 <ehird> I think you have to put it in an init script with fuse
00:29:42 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't used FUSE for ages.
00:30:02 <AnMaster> ehird, also init script won't work since the systems aren't always up
00:30:11 <AnMaster> so I mount it after I booted the computer in question
00:30:17 <ehird> alias mountphoenix?
00:30:18 <AnMaster> so I have a noauto line in /etc/fstab :P
00:30:35 <AnMaster> ehird, why wouldn't fstab work?
00:30:40 <ehird> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/fuse/index.php?title=FAQ#Is_it_possible_to_mount_a_fuse_filesystem_from_fstab.3F
00:30:55 <ehird> The mounting is performed by the /sbin/mount.fuse helper script. In this example the FUSE-linked binary must be called sshfs and must reside somewhere in $PATH.
00:31:03 <ehird> AnMaster: You'll just have to figure out how to call 9pfuse(1) with it
00:31:32 <AnMaster> ehird, anything that can be in /proc/mounts can in general be copied to /etc/fstab + some minor changes and made to work
00:31:38 <ehird> Welp, do that then
00:32:03 <ehird> 10 * Note: I added an ifdef for Linux vs. BSD for the mount call, so
00:32:03 <ehird> 11 * this compiles on BSD, but it won't actually run. It should,
00:32:05 <ehird> 12 * ideally, have the option of not mounting the FS.
00:32:11 <AnMaster> phoenix:/home/anmaster /mnt/phoenix nfs rw,vers=3,rsize=65536,wsize=65536,namlen=255,soft,nointr,proto=tcp,timeo=600,retrans=2,sec=sys,mountaddr=192.168.0.191,mountvers=3,mountproto=tcp,addr=192.168.0.191 0 0
00:32:12 <ehird> Might need to patch ixpsrv.c, then
00:32:17 <AnMaster> phoenix:/home/anmaster /mnt/phoenix nfs rw,nfsvers=3,soft,noauto 0 0
00:32:27 <AnMaster> cutting out the useless defaults
00:32:53 <ehird> libixp might not be th ebest choice
00:32:55 <AnMaster> ehird, mount --bind in fstab? certainly possible.
00:33:07 <AnMaster> ehird, this was phoenix mounted on linux btw
00:33:17 <AnMaster> but it is mounted on several *bsd too atm
00:33:30 <AnMaster> where I actually have the speakers connected
00:33:46 <AnMaster> (there is a reason... believe me)
00:33:54 <AnMaster> (it's called "cable length and placement"
00:34:01 <ehird> get some cable extenders?
00:34:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I already had a computer near where I needed
00:34:29 <ehird> You brought it up.
00:34:43 <AnMaster> that doesn't imply "I think it is bad"
00:34:51 <AnMaster> just "this may seem odd to you, but there is a good reason"
00:35:24 <AnMaster> ehird, a bind mount under *linux looks like: /foo/real /bar/mounted/here none rw,bind 0 0
00:35:46 <AnMaster> ehird, on freebsd you use "nullfs" iirc
00:36:02 <ehird> this other filesystem, incidentally, IS connected via ethernet right?
00:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, via null modem cable! duh
00:36:29 <ehird> i mean, not wirelessly
00:36:40 <ehird> my main objection to networked filesystems is over the internet; fast operations — which is basically anything apart from things involving large data, on a harddrive — suddenly take up to seconds
00:36:42 <AnMaster> ehird, gbit ethernet between bsd-bsd. But wireless to the linux
00:36:46 <ehird> leaky abstraction, just like RPC
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00:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well depends on *which* linu
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00:37:27 <ehird> "OpenBitTorrent is a bittorrent tracker free for anyone to use. You don't need to register, upload or index a torrent anywhere, all you have to do is to include the OpenBitTorrent tracker URL in your torrent."
00:38:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, does 9P fail over wlan or something?
00:38:19 <ehird> 00:36 ehird: my main objection to networked filesystems is over the internet; fast operations — which is basically anything apart from things involving large data, on a harddrive — suddenly take up to seconds
00:38:22 <ehird> (though over slow wireless counts too)
00:38:24 <ehird> 00:36 ehird: leaky abstraction, just like RPC
00:38:48 <AnMaster> ehird, got a better abstraction that does basically the same thing? ;P
00:39:04 <ehird> AnMaster: well, for controlling music over the internet...
00:39:06 <ehird> music player daemon
00:39:19 <ehird> networked music library/player with a one-server, many-client architecture
00:39:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, access various large files as if it was a local file system
00:39:34 <ehird> I was giving for a specific case
00:39:48 <ehird> although of course that limits you to one track since one server, one output
00:39:57 <ehird> but that's unlikely to be a limitation for one person
00:40:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I often compile over nfs, and one computer even use nfs for /, I'm experimenting with thin clients
00:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, that is the classical way for thin clients
00:40:53 <ehird> 00:37 ehird: "OpenBitTorrent is a bittorrent tracker free for anyone to use. You don't need to register, upload or index a torrent anywhere, all you have to do is to include the OpenBitTorrent tracker URL in your torrent."
00:40:55 <ehird> 00:37 ehird: Shiny.
00:40:57 <ehird> ↑ Update: for values of shiny equal to "same ip as the pirate bay"
00:41:03 <ehird> AnMaster: i hate traditional thin clients
00:41:31 <ehird> AnMaster: What do you mean?
00:41:38 <AnMaster> "<ehird> ↑ Update: for values of shiny equal to "same ip as the pirate bay""
00:41:40 <ehird> It's not actually a thing, they just remapped the IP to the pirate bay and put up a website saying it's something new
00:41:42 <ehird> which makes no sense
00:41:58 <ehird> "GGF only bought the domain name and a copy of the TPB's database(without logs since they dont exist). As of right now the domain name hasn't been transferred. Also the TPB's infrastructure hasn't been sold at all."
00:42:57 <ehird> "This crap hurts the industry. Where I work I've already seen people being made redundant. The more law suits to get this junk shut down the better. The Internet wasnt created to let people steal movies and music."
00:43:02 <AnMaster> ehird, about thin clients.. I'm beginning to see why after experimenting with them :P
00:46:09 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway checking out 9P is something I will do in the future. But too much kernel rebuilding on both *bsd and linux required to do this atm, will enable the options the next time I recompile the kernels though
00:46:27 <ehird> AnMaster: there's no rebuilding required
00:46:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the 9P stuff in the linux kernel?
00:46:51 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a damn kernel option for it.
00:46:59 <pikhq> There's also Plan 9 from Userspace.
00:47:00 <ehird> my advise didn't include that, though
00:47:04 <ehird> my advise was cross-platform, too
00:47:10 <ehird> we've just discussed using it
00:47:27 <ehird> *fuse9p, *9pfuse, I dunno
00:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, so you recommend that on all OSes?
00:47:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your personal experience with it?
00:47:46 <ehird> AnMaster: without any further evidence, yes, I would recommend it. and the same of that as google's.
00:47:53 <pikhq> The FUSE API *is* implemented on all major OSes but Windows...
00:48:05 <pikhq> (and some minor ones; HURD, for example, has an implementation)
00:48:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, I would like to see one for PC-DOS
00:49:17 <ehird> pikhq: no it's not. loadlin!
00:50:21 <AnMaster> what was that about TPB and this tracker?
00:50:54 <pikhq> The FUSE API assumes a full-on process.
00:51:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, meh... I'm sure you could adapt it in some mad way using TSRs
00:51:36 <ehird> just implement a scheduler in the fuse program
00:51:40 <ehird> and use it to run the other programs
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01:08:00 <ehird> transhumanist anticipation of the singularity is comparable to Christian anticipation of the second coming of Jesus Christ
01:08:02 <ehird> A movement which views its ultimate purpose as bringing enlightenment to the universe sets itself up in direct opposition to God’s own purpose … their ambition — like Satan’s — will one day lead to an outright physical confrontation with God Himself. It’s a battle that God will win.
01:09:18 <pikhq> Clearly what will actually happen is that the singularity will become manifest in the form of Jesus Christ. :P
01:09:27 <ehird> The wonderful fundie site Rapture Ready: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/gillette/transhuman.html
01:09:50 <ehird> (tl;dr of the site's prerogative: "The rapture will happen in 1999. Uh. 2003. Uh. 2007. Uh. 2012."
01:10:09 <ehird> pikhq: Numbers made up.
01:10:17 <pikhq> How ignorant psuedo-Mayan of them.
01:11:00 <AnMaster> psuedo-Mayan? Why Mayan in specific?
01:11:06 <ehird> AnMaster: google 2012
01:11:23 <AnMaster> Isn't Maya a rather good (but expensive) 3D editor iirc? ~
01:11:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Mayan calender sets 2012 as the end of the current epoch.
01:11:59 <pikhq> Some think that this means that the Mayans predicted the end of the world on 2012.
01:12:06 <ehird> http://ldopa.net/2006/06/04/cory-doctorow-visits-a-radio-shack/ ← This is hilarious
01:12:23 <pikhq> When in fact it's merely the end of the current calender epoch; it will just cycle over the day after the winter solstice.
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01:15:07 <ehird> [[Eliezer Yudkowsky (pronounced “Frankensteen”)]]
01:17:06 <AnMaster> "font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;" hm
01:17:27 <AnMaster> yet why is … turned into a box in firefox
01:17:41 <ehird> because your mom is a fly.
01:19:21 <ehird> pikhq: you're studying mathematics, right? a guy on reddit is claiming that "the length of a set is the number of elements it has" is an unusual definition
01:19:27 <ehird> and arguing that a set can have infinite items but finite length
01:21:31 <AnMaster> ehird, even to me, who isn't great at math, that sounds very odd
01:21:46 <ehird> TURN INTO A DOOM OF THE PIG
01:22:05 <AnMaster> ehird, this sounds slightly less sane than "nullity"
01:22:38 <pikhq> ehird: Infinite items but finite length?
01:23:03 <pikhq> I wonder what sort of screwy axiomatic system he's using, and how much LSD was involved.
02:48:53 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
02:51:11 * Sgeo needs to figure out how to write a resume
03:10:00 <lament> ehird: he must be talking about intervals.
03:10:26 <lament> so he's simply saying length instead of measure
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03:27:37 <Sgeo> What JS toolkit is most used by companies?
03:33:23 <Slereah> http://verrahrubicon.free.fr/SPIDER%20WEB.png
03:38:55 <Sgeo> What's the difference between jQuery and dojo?
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06:42:38 <Warrigal> BCM stands for Bienenstock, Cooper and Munro.
06:42:48 <Warrigal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCM_theory
06:43:16 <Slereah> For all I know it could be Bowel and Cock Movement
06:44:37 <Warrigal> The strangest bodily fluid ever observed.
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06:50:37 <oklodok> may i interest you all in a sevenfold glio
06:55:24 <oklodok> pikhq are you an mit student, or was your praise that of a university theoretician
06:55:44 <Warrigal> Or seven glia, if you don't have any Finland on you.
06:56:44 <oklodok> you're going to have to explain dat
06:57:11 <Warrigal> Does "sevenfold glio" have an explanation?
07:01:11 <oklodok> i've been singing glioing in the fog / glioing in the fogger / the fogger in the fol all week
07:01:22 <Warrigal> Wiktionary doesn't even have an entry for "glio".
07:01:56 <Warrigal> Therefore, it's not plain English.
07:02:03 <oklodok> it's a prefix for all that is gluey afaik
07:02:23 <oklodok> i use is as a synonym for oko.
07:02:53 <oklodok> and since when is wiktionary a dictionary
07:06:38 <oklodok> well aren't you being asynchronous
07:09:06 <oklodok> i have blow air out of my eye
07:11:45 <Warrigal> Though the English Wiktionary contains more Spanish words than the Spanish Wiktionary, if I'm not mistaken. Which is, you know.
07:13:18 <augur> this website seems to be kind of backwards
07:13:31 <augur> perhaps written by someone who's used to programming in befunge or something
07:13:44 <augur> it has a list of things
07:13:50 <augur> and they're in reverse order
07:14:00 <augur> not just numerically
07:14:04 <augur> but in terms of content
07:14:13 <augur> the first one replies to whats said in the second
07:14:33 <augur> not only that, but instead of #1 and #2 it says 1# and 2#
07:16:00 <oklodok> i had a panic induced high the other day
07:16:10 <oklodok> i like saying random things.
07:16:50 <Warrigal> Here, I'll give you a stupid piece of BNF.
07:17:08 * oklodok waits for augur to show he's in charge
07:17:18 <oklodok> you know, because of the bnf thing
07:17:52 <oklodok> well isn't that related to linguistics
07:18:06 <augur> its related to formal grammars?
07:18:24 <oklodok> am i confusing the acronym
07:18:58 <augur> it is, but only by virtue of being related to formal grammar
07:19:07 <Warrigal> <stupid> ::= {"A" <stupidB> | "B" <stupidA>} (<stupidA> {<stupidA>} | <stupidB> {<stupidB>} | epsilon}; <stupidA> ::= "A" | "B" <stupidA> <stupidA>; <stupidB> ::= "B" | "A" <stupidB> <stupidB>
07:19:22 <oklodok> anyway, may have been entirely my fault, but you definitely *did* show you're in charge.
07:19:45 <Warrigal> That piece of BNF is stupid because it's a really long way of writing <stupid> ::= {"A" | "B"}.
07:20:34 <augur> what doe the {}s mean?
07:21:13 <augur> it is not a way of writing <stupid> ::= ("A" | "B")
07:21:28 <augur> but ir might be of writing <stupid> ::= {"A"|"B"}
07:22:03 <oklodok> how's that not showing you're in charge
07:22:38 <oklodok> oh dear, her sister betrayed her!
07:23:01 <Warrigal> | is totally a space-requiring operator.
07:23:22 <augur> ur moms a space requiring operator
07:23:43 <oklodok> i think you, augur, are taking me a bit too literally today.
07:24:13 <oklodok> well you take my random, and say what
07:24:13 <augur> im taking you too seriously
07:24:17 <augur> and not just taking you
07:25:00 <oklodok> so anyone read dostojevski's idiot
07:25:35 <oklodok> turns out everyone in the 19th century was high 24/7.
07:27:19 <fizzie> Misread "anyone read that dostojevski idiot", thought "a bit harsh".
07:27:59 <oklodok> he's either an idiot of a genius, that much i know
07:28:10 <oklodok> why, why do all my typos mean something
07:29:03 <augur> fizzie: "that dostojevski idiot" does not mean dostojevski was an idiot.
07:29:28 <oklodok> yeah you'd need to reverse it or it's another genetive
07:29:56 <oklodok> anyway, augur: ur moms a space requiring operator <<< how did you come up with this
07:29:57 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it should be "that idiot dostojevski" then. Anyway, that's the meaning I parsed out of it.
07:30:22 <augur> you dont parse meanings you parse structures! :|
07:30:41 <oklodok> all this charge is charring my hair
07:30:53 <augur> all this char is charging my hair
07:31:10 <oklodok> it's not the chars themselves that charge, it's the structures
07:31:29 * augur forms a structure with oklopol
07:32:07 <fizzie> Whoa, purely-intuitivited (or maybe I remembered it from somewhere) google search style of "that * idiot" (in quotes) actually did what I wanted, which was to find that+[any-word-or-two]+idiot.
07:33:02 <augur> yes i know its shocking but i do read.
07:33:25 <augur> its a common mistake
07:33:30 <augur> read and sleep look a lot alike
07:33:36 <augur> if you close your eyes, anyway.
07:33:54 <oklodok> especially as i read the meaning behind sleep and bed, neither word in particular.
07:34:16 <oklodok> right, i probably just didn't read the last word
07:35:31 <augur> Argument Realization, Chapter 4 - Three conceptualizations of events
07:35:34 <oklodok> but are you reading that dostojevski idiot
07:35:54 <oklodok> augur: what does that mean?
07:36:27 <immibis> it means he sometimes reads words
07:36:54 <oklodok> or you can just go, it's probably too complicated for my fantastically less cleve brain.
07:37:01 <augur> the book is about how arguments to verbs are denoted
07:37:16 <augur> in terms of their position relative to the verbs, and their phrasal type
07:37:52 <oklodok> makes more sense than the meaning i *parsed* at first, that is, "argument realization" as in "how to start a fight".
07:38:01 <fizzie> Oklodok's fantastically cleaved brain.
07:38:24 <augur> you said "less cleve"
07:38:26 <oklodok> why would you take my awesome pun and turn it into that.
07:38:40 <augur> its an interesting book
07:38:44 <augur> and im off to read it now.
07:40:55 <oklodok> what was 'augur: you said "less cleve"' referring to
07:41:14 <augur> i was replying to your huh
07:41:18 <Warrigal> The little girl says to her father, "What did you bring that book that I did not want to be read to out of about Down Under up for?"
07:41:34 <oklodok> was it an explanation of fizzie's
07:41:56 <Warrigal> Change that sentence so that each preposition precedes the thing it prepositions.
07:42:03 <augur> the bane of the english teacher who things you cant end a sentence with a preposition
07:42:21 <oklodok> cool, your typo meant too.
07:42:36 <augur> warrigal, you can remove all but one of the sentence final prepositions
07:43:09 <augur> Down Under doesnt count, since its a proper noun, so we can ignore it
07:43:25 <augur> more importantly, because we want to actually have a tricky problem, we remove the whole "about Down Under" phrase
07:43:39 <augur> so we're actually left with five prepositions in a row
07:44:07 <augur> For what did you bring up that book out of which I did not want to be read to
07:44:30 <Warrigal> The little girl says to her father, "For what did you bring up that book about Down Under out of which I did not want to be read to?"
07:44:48 <Warrigal> The "up" seems to be acting as an adjective.
07:44:59 <augur> its a resultative.
07:45:21 <Warrigal> "To be read to" is rather pathological, isn't it.
07:45:28 <augur> its not a syntactic adverb
07:45:35 <augur> its an adverbial preposition, however.
07:45:48 <augur> or probably more accurately, a preposition that is an argument to the verb.
07:46:08 <augur> also, "to be read to" is not pathological at all
07:46:16 <augur> its a propositional passive.
07:46:19 <oklodok> why would it be pathological
07:46:47 <Warrigal> It's pathological in that you can't make the "to" precede its prepositionee.
07:47:14 <Warrigal> And by "prepositionee", I mean "complement".
07:47:16 <augur> true, but thats not pathological.
07:48:21 <Warrigal> It's pathological for people who want to do that.
07:48:42 <augur> everyone does that
07:48:49 <augur> some just refuse to admit it.
07:49:20 <Warrigal> Everyone makes prepositions precede their prepositionees?
07:49:46 <augur> no, everyone strands their prepositions
07:51:22 <oklodok> i wish i had something to drink to
07:51:34 <augur> drink to churchill!
07:51:54 <oklodok> i'm so going to drink up to it
07:56:37 <augur> you go drink on up to it, oklodok
07:57:14 <fizzie> You're going to be up your churchill in drinks.
07:57:25 <oklodok> i'm not sure i can drink up to it.
07:57:27 <augur> better than being up to your drinks in churchill!
07:58:04 <fizzie> Oh, I missed the "to" too.
07:58:15 <augur> i didnt notice at all.
07:58:29 <oklodok> don't they mean a different thing
07:58:43 <oklodok> up your churchill being in churchill's ass
07:59:00 * augur bes up my oklodok?
07:59:23 <oklodok> be is actually somewhat of an irregular verb.
07:59:40 <oklodok> yeah, it's occasionatively irregular, i'd say.
07:59:42 <augur> to be, i am, you are, he/she/it is, we/you/they are
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08:00:08 <augur> i was, you were, he/she/it/was, we/you/they were
08:00:40 <oklodok> yeah and those are only the beginning
08:02:02 <oklodok> BE ME UP, BEFORE YOU GO GO
08:02:42 <fizzie> What was the original? "Beam me up before you go-go?"
08:02:55 <oklodok> i was just thinking i've definitely heard that somewhere
08:02:57 <augur> the original is wake me up.
08:03:23 <oklodok> just one fucking finger typo, and i'd be happy
08:03:46 <augur> also, its not disco
08:04:33 <fizzie> Misread "just lick me".
08:04:52 <oklodok> yeah stop sucking and start licking
08:05:00 <augur> oops, i mustve misread it too! D:
08:05:40 <oklodok> i should go too, to the shoppe, to buy
08:05:52 <oklodok> i do have beer here, but i'm not sure i'm man enough
08:06:27 <oklodok> so i saw this three-year-old
08:06:36 <oklodok> and i tried to ask him if he knew group theory
08:06:54 <oklodok> and wasn't even that interested in hearing
08:07:26 <oklodok> just wanted to pour more water in his flower soup
08:07:37 <oklodok> and list spanish words to me
08:08:59 <oklodok> although he just listed three
08:09:19 <oklodok> he wasn't interested in hearing the italian translations
08:09:38 <Warrigal> Fun generalization: instead of a subject pronoun followed by a copula, use a possessive pronoun.
08:10:41 <Warrigal> "My not alone, and your not alone either. Our all in this together. That's why we can defeat them; their all scattered about. His in one place, her in another."
08:11:51 <oklodok> guess that was a bit too obvious.
08:20:16 <oklodok> "if i didn't know better, i'd think you actually wanted the man to have a nervous breakdown" "then maybe you don't know better, because i care for your father too"
08:21:20 <oklodok> if i didn't know better, i'd think that made no sense.
08:21:43 <fizzie> Fortunately you know butter.
08:21:55 <oklodok> then again the incredible genius got the beginning of the fibonacci sequence wrong, so i guess i might be right.
08:21:56 <fizzie> In the biblical sense, I guess.
08:22:14 <oklodok> i love tv shows that have math/cs in them
08:22:35 <fizzie> We don't have a televisor.
08:22:44 <oklodok> but i mean shows that try to have them
08:23:34 <fizzie> I've heard of something called numb3rs, but no details.
08:23:55 <oklodok> if it's on tv, it's probably done wrong.
08:24:18 <oklodok> people aren't interested in anything interesting
08:25:21 <oklodok> but, i'll download that if it's a show
08:25:25 <fizzie> I like the title of this one: http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/MeasuringTheSpeedOfLightWithMarshmallows/
08:26:27 <oklodok> my connection is very slow, i'm downloading a lot of... puppies, because i finally have a stable flow of internet here.
08:26:54 <oklodok> can't get that open at all it seems
08:27:38 <fizzie> The puppies are probably eating the marshmallows, then.
08:28:31 <oklodok> i'm overdosing on life atm
08:28:43 <oklodok> probably should drink the beer to calm down.
08:29:23 <oklodok> i mean i'm seriously contemplating running out without my clothes on
08:29:43 <oklodok> you know, to greet the trees
08:30:00 <oklodok> there's a reason they have leaves
08:30:21 <oklodok> i should put my clothes on
08:31:03 <oklodok> one of my university professors moved into the building
08:31:35 <oklodok> which is not very nice because i know him well enough that i have to greet him
08:31:53 <fizzie> You might rise some eyebrows (or maybe other things as well!) if you were to go greet him sans clothes.
08:31:54 <oklodok> and i'm afraid i'll start talking math to him
08:32:04 <oklodok> which would be very unprofessional of me.
08:32:34 <fizzie> It's lunch-sausage time now.
08:32:57 <oklodok> he's a mathematica fetishist, actually
08:33:15 <oklodok> so i probably couldn't petrify his pendulum
08:34:23 <oklodok> written like a 1000 page book about mathematica, but didn't know what GC is
08:35:06 <oklodok> anyway enjoy sawing your sages, i'll try that shoppe thing
08:36:35 <augur> quantum electro dynamics
08:36:40 <augur> quod erat demonstrandum
08:37:44 <oklodok> augur speaks latin natively
08:39:10 <oklodok> i was trying to find the name of the imaginary country that'd speak latin, but wasn't sure what it'd be
08:39:27 <oklodok> couldn't come up with a language that ends in "in"
08:39:55 <oklodok> but one where the country is a simple suffix modification
08:40:11 <oklodok> which is not the case there
08:41:02 <Warrigal> Latin is the language spoken by Lats.
08:41:30 <augur> Latin is spoken by Latins in Latium.
08:41:49 <Slereah> Mandarin is spoken by mandarine
08:44:18 <oklodok> well. i guess that's too strong a word
08:44:36 <Warrigal> I think Latin and Tok Pisin are the only Wikipedias ending in in.
08:44:52 <oklodok> something like that. or occasionally obsesses over.
08:46:47 <Slereah> "# The Klingon language edition of the Wikipedia is no longer hosted by Wikimedia and is now hosted by Wikia as Klingon Wiki. There is more on the history of the Klingon Wikipedia."
08:47:31 <Slereah> "Among the problems was the existence of interwiki links from the main page and other articles, which some Wikipedians felt detracted from the scholarly appearance of the project."
08:47:43 <Slereah> Isn't an article on Obama in Klingon serious?
08:47:55 <oklodok> is it about assassinating him
08:48:13 <Slereah> I imagine such an article would refer to him as Admiral Obama
08:49:19 <Slereah> Because most of Klingon is derived from Star Trek so the vocabulary is famously rather limited
08:49:24 <Slereah> Especially for everyday things
08:49:44 <Slereah> DIvI' HoSghaj 'oH America yoSmey jIj'e' (United States of America). tInqu' yoSghomvam 'ej mIpqu'.
08:49:44 <Slereah> vaghmaH yoS ghaj. Washington 'oH monDaj'e'. motlh pa' DIvI' Hol jatlhlu'. DIS 1776 yoSmey jIj luchenmoHlu'ta'. George Washington ghaH che'wI' wa'DIch pong'e'. DaH Barack Obama ghaH che'wI' loSmaH loSDIch'e'.
08:50:11 <oklodok> i've just heard it's good for talking about killing, and nothing else.
08:50:51 <oklodok> that's why the assassin joke was so hilarious
08:51:03 <oklodok> if you were wondering why you're dripping stomach fluids
09:08:02 <immibis> !c printf("%f %f", 1.0, 0.0);
09:08:13 <immibis> !c printf("%f %f", 1.0f, 0.0f);
09:10:31 <Slereah> !c while(1){printf("f\n");}
09:11:03 <Slereah> The rest was sent in private session
09:12:25 <Slereah> Do you have to define variables with this bot?
09:12:35 <Slereah> Or are they dynamic or whatever the word is
09:12:56 <Slereah> !c a = 33; printf("%c",a);
09:13:10 <Slereah> !c int a; a = 33; printf("%c",a);
09:13:15 <immibis> !c printf("%i %i",sizeof(float),sizeof(double));
09:13:26 <immibis> this is for a discussion in #gcc btw
09:13:43 <immibis> !c printf("%i %i",sizeof(1.0),sizeof(1.0f));
09:13:57 <immibis> !c printf("%i %i",sizeof(1.0),sizeof(1.0f+2.0f));
09:14:30 <immibis> !c void a(float b) {printf("%i",sizeof(b));} void main() {a(1.0f);}
09:14:33 <Slereah> !c int a; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]="f"}a = 33; printf("%c",a);
09:14:54 <Slereah> !c int a; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]=70;} printf("%c",a);
09:15:04 <Slereah> !c int[100] a; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]=70;} printf("%c",a);
09:15:06 <immibis> !c void a(float b) {printf("%i ",sizeof(b));} void main() {a(1.0f);}
09:15:14 <immibis> !c void a(float b) {printf("%i ",sizeof(b));} a(1.0f);
09:15:24 <Slereah> !c int a[100],i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]=70;} printf("%c",a);
09:16:07 <Slereah> Disregard this, I suck cocks
09:16:24 <immibis> !c int a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';} a[99]='\0'; printf("%s",a);
09:16:38 <immibis> !c int a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';} printf("%s",a);
09:16:45 <immibis> !c int a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';} printf("%s",&a);
09:16:48 <immibis> !c int a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';} printf("%s",*a);
09:16:49 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 7197 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
09:16:59 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 7242 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
09:17:00 <Slereah> Declare a char instead of an int, maybe?
09:17:10 <immibis> !c char a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';} printf("%s",*a);
09:17:11 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 7337 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
09:17:17 <immibis> !c char a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';}a[99] = '\0'; printf("%s",*a);
09:17:18 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 7377 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
09:17:25 <immibis> !c char a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';}a[99] = '\0'; printf("%s",a);
09:17:26 <EgoBot> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
09:17:28 <Slereah> I use ints because I hate chars D:
09:17:30 <immibis> !c char a[100]; int i; for(i=0;i<100;i++){a[i]='f';}a[99] = '\0'; printf("%s",a);
09:17:31 <EgoBot> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
09:17:54 <immibis> instead of 0x86,0x86,0x86 you get 0x86,0x00,0x00,0x00,0x86,0x00,0x00,0x00...
09:18:04 <Slereah> If you print an int as a %c, it will just be the ASCII char with that value
09:18:06 <immibis> !c char a[1024]; int i; for(i=0;i<1024;i++){a[i]='f';}a[99] = '\0'; printf("%s",a);
09:18:07 <EgoBot> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
09:18:20 <immibis> !c char a[1024]; int i; for(i=0;i<1024;i++){a[i]='f';}a[1023] = '\0'; printf("%s",a);
09:18:21 <EgoBot> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
09:18:36 <immibis> !c int k;for(k=0;k<1000;k++){char a[1024]; int i; for(i=0;i<1024;i++){a[i]='f';}a[1023] = '\0'; printf("%s",a);}
09:18:41 <EgoBot> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
09:19:55 <immibis> !c printf("\nJOIN #gcc\n");
09:21:20 <Slereah> !c printf("Hello, world!");
09:21:49 <Slereah> !c printf("!swedish Derp derp I am swedish C");
09:21:50 <EgoBot> !swedish Derp derp I am swedish C
09:21:59 <Slereah> !swedish Derp derp I am swedish C
09:22:00 <EgoBot> Derp derp I em svedeesh C
09:22:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
09:22:21 <Slereah> What other bot as sveedeesh again?
09:22:33 <fungot> Slereah: wow i wudnt of guessed. the pilot, co-pilot, engineer and navigator, maybe she'll be able to take off instead of land why the hell out when i saw this footage does show promise... it looks pre-rendered. i believe the cause of this
09:22:42 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
09:22:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
09:22:55 <fungot> immibis: the only reason i'd watch the documentary on this
09:23:01 <fungot> immibis: we all know this sounds a lot was riding on this on snl. andy, jorma, akiva schaffer, and it shows exactly that in france
09:23:08 <fungot> immibis: he's pretty amazing... and you didn't answer the question: how exactly can a ' go around
09:23:15 <Slereah> !c printf("fungot, want to gay out?");
09:23:16 <fungot> Slereah: wow that was a computer? look, now shes ok, farinelli... but i think senator clinton's management of the story of the company to fly
09:23:16 <EgoBot> fungot, want to gay out?
09:23:19 <immibis> fungot, i don't know how a ' can go around...
09:23:19 <fungot> immibis: i'm a pussy by birth! i can't wait
09:23:35 <Slereah> Why won't the bots communicate :(
09:23:38 <immibis> FIZZIE: Bug report. Fungot generates incomplete sentences.
09:23:43 <immibis> probably set to ignore each other
09:23:48 <Slereah> !swedish fungot, want to gay out?
09:23:48 <fungot> Slereah: as to how these were the people skills of a plane, knowing men, women and their children died as you always do--i've come to mine by consulting such sources as time changes to stop judging whats on the screen
09:23:48 <EgoBot> foongut, vunt tu gey oooot? Bork Bork Bork!
09:24:06 <Slereah> I'm afraid we have enough bots as it is
09:24:39 <fizzie> That's fungot's current ignore-regexp.
09:24:40 <fungot> fizzie: fuck you encul de tes morts de ta race de narvale putain de ta race de narvale putain de ta mere stizz would not pick up duke nukem trailer.
09:24:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
09:25:52 <fizzie> The "when to stop a sentence" thing is a bit arbitrary and pessimal.
09:26:35 <fungot> immibis: the add about not wanting to go around it spose to be amazing
09:26:42 <immibis> that just plain doesn't make sense
09:26:46 <immibis> fungot, i don't understand you
09:26:46 <fungot> immibis: i still love you nalts! your awesome!!
09:26:56 <fungot> immibis: it's not a large turbojet aircraft gets slow enough it requires more power but the computer wouldn't provide power, but i loved it. if you don't even like basketball stalled and crashed
09:27:13 <immibis> runs shell commands i think
09:27:19 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.S \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.8417
09:27:27 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:27:36 <immibis> you can do one-parameter commands with `command argument goes here
09:27:47 <immibis> or normal shell commands with `run command and arguments
09:27:50 <Slereah> `echo !swedish bork bork bork
09:28:02 <Slereah> Why won't the robots be friends :(
09:28:14 <fungot> Slereah: wow hes gay?" i believe you still you don't, etc.
09:36:05 <immibis> what kind of person is /o\???
09:36:18 <Slereah> Putting his arms on his head
09:36:44 <Slereah> _o_ _o/ _o\ \o\ \o/ \o_ /o/ /o_ /o\
09:36:45 <myndzi> /\ >\ >\ /| >\ /< /| >\ /|
09:38:44 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
09:39:20 <Slereah> Are you the Italian VIPPER?
09:41:01 -!- toBogE has joined.
09:43:10 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
09:43:10 <toBogE> All known commands: !bf !bf8 !binascii !chanlist !delregex
09:43:12 <toBogE> !factoid !hello !help !irp !loadbfc !magritte !minimum
09:43:14 <toBogE> !module !nil !persist !ps !raw !regex !rot13 !setprefix
09:43:46 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for setprefix!
09:43:46 <toBogE> All known commands: !bf !bf8 !binascii !chanlist !delregex
09:43:48 <toBogE> !factoid !hello !help !irp !loadbfc !magritte !minimum
09:43:50 <toBogE> !module !nil !persist !ps !raw !regex !rot13 !setprefix
09:44:02 <Slereah> !bf_txtgen !c printf("`echo _o_");
09:44:11 <EgoBot> 205 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>.<-.>+++++++++++++.++.---------.+++++.++++++.--------------.<++++++++.------.>------.>++.<+++.>+++.+++++++.<<--.>----.>.<.<++.+++++++.++++++++++++++++++.>>>-. [621]
09:44:30 <Slereah> !bf +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>.<-.>+++++++++++++.++.---------.+++++.++++++.--------------.<++++++++.------.>------.>++.<+++.>+++.+++++++.<<--.>----.>.<.<++.+++++++.++++++++++++++++++.>>>-.
09:44:30 <EgoBot> !c printf("`echo _o_");
09:44:30 <toBogE> !c printf("`echo _o_");
09:44:58 <GregorR-L> Is toBogE still old EgoBot or new EgoBot?
09:45:34 <immibis> completely unrelated except for the name
09:45:44 <toBogE> All known commands: !bf !bf8 !binascii !chanlist !delregex
09:45:46 <toBogE> !factoid !hello !help !irp !loadbfc !magritte !minimum
09:45:48 <toBogE> !module !nil !persist !ps !raw !regex !rot13 !setprefix
09:46:24 <Slereah> !bf_txtgen !c printf("`echo _o_ fungot");
09:46:24 <fungot> Slereah: ht tp jeanclaudeboetsch. free. fr/ level of cod4 while on the screen!!! to cap it all, all of that plane
09:46:27 <EgoBot> 288 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>+++++.>+.<-.>>.++.---------.+++++.++++++.--------------.<<++++++++.------.<--.>>++.--.+++++.+++++++.<--.<-.>>.<<.>.>>.<++++++.>++++++++.-------.++++++++.<-.<++.+++++++.++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------------------------. [501]
09:46:41 <Slereah> !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>+++++.>+.<-.>>.++.---------.+++++.++++++.--------------.<<++++++++.------.<--.>>++.--.+++++.+++++++.<--.<-.>>.<<.>.>>.<++++++.>++++++++.-------.++++++++.<-.<++.+++++++.++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------------------------.
09:46:41 <EgoBot> !c printf("`echo _o_ fungot");
09:48:17 <immibis> !regex repeat _o_ replace _o_
09:48:46 <immibis> !regex stuff stuff replace other stuff
09:49:30 <toBogE> immibis is my creator.
09:49:44 <toBogE> #esoteric is a channel on irc.freenode.net. The topic is 'Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Don't spam the channel with toBogE commands, /join #toboge | Don't spam the channel with bsmnt_bot commands, take him to your own channel. | Cong
09:50:32 <immibis> why didn't that do anything? o.o
09:51:03 <fizzie> Didn't you just change the prefix?
09:51:29 <immibis> so that why its not doing anythin
09:51:57 <immibis> @regex repeat \o/ replace _o/
09:52:09 <immibis> @regex repeat \\o/ replace _o/
09:53:48 <fizzie> Is that @raw available for anyone?
09:53:52 * immibis wonders why that was in there
09:54:05 <fizzie> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:05 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:06 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:06 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:07 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:07 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:07 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:08 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:08 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:08 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:08 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:08 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:09 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:09 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:09 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:10 <fungot> @raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:10 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:54:11 <toBogE> ^ul (@raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul )(~:SaSaS(:^)S):^
09:54:15 <toBogE> 1 Process on #esoteric: ps (Thread-ID 19)
09:54:34 <immibis> lol is it meant to do that?
09:54:37 <fizzie> I was just thinking we're bound to have one loop sooner or later.
09:54:56 <immibis> is it meant to quit i mean?
09:55:27 <immibis> and try it over and over until you get the right timing
09:55:38 <immibis> on second thought, your way's better
09:55:52 -!- fungot has joined.
09:56:02 <toBogE> All known commands: !bf !bf8 !binascii !chanlist !delregex
09:56:04 <toBogE> !factoid !hello !help !irp !loadbfc !magritte !minimum
09:56:06 <toBogE> !module !nil !persist !ps !raw !regex !rot13 !setprefix
09:56:17 <fizzie> Now that we've gotten the loop out of the way, I did the boring thing and added "toBogE" to fungot's ignore-list. Sowwy.
09:56:17 <fungot> fizzie: undefined variable ' nil'.)
09:56:20 <immibis> @irp Please repeat this sentence unless it has been said more than once before.
09:56:53 <immibis> that appears to make it join #irp, say the sentence and then part
09:58:27 <immibis> i found something called module_dollar_auction in the source...
09:59:25 <toBogE> I have a dollar extra, but who will I give it to?
09:59:25 <toBogE> I know, I'll auction it off!
09:59:25 <toBogE> Everyone who wants to play, say ME!
09:59:25 <toBogE> You have 15 seconds to say ME! before the game starts
09:59:39 <toBogE> Ok, now you can bid by saying your bid on a line by itself.
09:59:40 <toBogE> $123 means 123 dollars. $1.23 means 123 cents. 123 means 123 cents. 1.23 means 123 cents.
09:59:40 <toBogE> You may say quit to withdraw from bidding.
09:59:40 <toBogE> I will announce the results when everyone has withdrawn. Start when I say.
10:00:07 <toBogE> immibis has withdrawn from bidding.
10:00:10 <toBogE> And now for the results.
10:00:13 <toBogE> The highest bidder was: immibis. He bid 1 cents. He gained -99 cents
10:00:14 <toBogE> immibis bidded -99 cents. He gained -99 cents
10:00:16 <toBogE> Now to find out who won. The winner is...
10:00:19 <toBogE> Game finished. Module unloading.
10:00:59 <immibis> it only auctions pretend dollars :(
10:01:03 <toBogE> I have a dollar extra, but who will I give it to?
10:01:03 <toBogE> I know, I'll auction it off!
10:01:03 <toBogE> Everyone who wants to play, say ME!
10:01:03 <toBogE> You have 15 seconds to say ME! before the game starts
10:01:08 <AnMaster> immibis, what esolang is it coded in?
10:01:18 <toBogE> Ok, now you can bid by saying your bid on a line by itself.
10:01:18 <toBogE> $123 means 123 dollars. $1.23 means 123 cents. 123 means 123 cents. 1.23 means 123 cents.
10:01:18 <toBogE> You may say quit to withdraw from bidding.
10:01:18 <toBogE> I will announce the results when everyone has withdrawn. Start when I say.
10:01:20 <immibis> it isn't but it interprets brainfuck
10:01:23 <immibis> therefore its allowed here
10:01:43 <toBogE> immibis has withdrawn from bidding.
10:01:46 <toBogE> And now for the results.
10:01:48 <toBogE> The highest bidder was: Slereah. He bid 1000000 cents. He lost $9999.0
10:01:50 <toBogE> immibis bidded 100 cents. He lost $1.0
10:01:52 <toBogE> Slereah bidded 999900 cents. He lost $9999.0
10:01:54 <toBogE> Now to find out who won. The winner is...
10:01:56 <toBogE> Game finished. Module unloading.
10:02:41 <immibis> especially when theer's only one person playing...
10:02:51 <immibis> the winner is !!!! apparently
10:03:03 * immibis can't remember when he wrote that
10:05:56 <immibis> because it can easily load classes dynamically.
10:05:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:06:13 <immibis> so i can add new commands (if i want to) and modules (also if i want to) without restarting it
10:06:24 <AnMaster> immibis, I made an irc bot in bash that could load and unload modules dynamically
10:06:40 <immibis> you'd rather write an irc bot in bash than in java?
10:06:58 <AnMaster> immibis, http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac btw
10:07:33 <fizzie> Hey, even fungot (written in Funge-98) can reload itself dynamically without restarting it. :p
10:07:34 <fungot> fizzie: i assume that termite will behave uniformly on windows and linux port, but textmate remains exclusive for the mac
10:08:03 <AnMaster> you can do it, with more or less work, in most languages
10:08:43 <AnMaster> you can even do it in C. I can think of two ways to replace the "core".
10:08:47 <fizzie> Though admittedly it gets confused if there are too large changes in the structure. And it's so far not able to reload the "^style" listings without a restart, even though that'd be reasonably trivial.
10:09:35 <AnMaster> 1) start a new process, send over the state and fds over a unix socket 2) use mprotect() and some other magic to rewrite the code in memory.
10:10:28 <immibis> Each command is a class. When you need to execute a command, load it with a new class loader so it doesn't get the cached version. Simple.
10:10:49 <immibis> Of course, you can only rewrite the commands.
10:11:00 <fizzie> Irssi's "/upgrade" command -- to be used after you've upgraded the binary -- does that first one. (Well, I'm not sure what it uses to pass the state information to the child, but anyway.)
10:11:02 <AnMaster> I would probably require explicit reloading of modules for speed reasons
10:11:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, I remember some ircd could do it to reload the core...
10:11:36 <immibis> AnMaster: Maybe if you're processing hundreds of commands per second...
10:11:44 <AnMaster> for reloading modules in C you can of course just do some dlopen()/dlclose() stuff
10:11:47 <immibis> Or have a really slow computer.
10:11:58 <fizzie> I guess with AnMaster speed's a matter of principle.
10:12:29 <AnMaster> immibis, I assume even handling server messages like PING, numerics and such are reloadable modules?
10:12:41 <immibis> no, that's handled in the irc library it uses.
10:13:04 <immibis> give me three good reasons not to use one.
10:13:23 <fizzie> Perversity, esotericity and... fabulousity?
10:13:25 <AnMaster> immibis, that implementing the IRC protocol is trivial. Maybe 30-40 lines at most.
10:13:44 <AnMaster> learning a library seems a bit of a waste
10:16:51 * immibis notices that it doesn't actually reload commands each time
10:17:07 <toBogE> Caught a java.lang.InstantiationException! toboge.Execer_Error
10:17:16 <AnMaster> a library would end up with some API like: connect(Server, Port) -> SocketOrErrorCode disconnect(Socket) -> void getline(Socket) -> LineOrErrorCode sendline(Socket, String) -> ErrorCode
10:17:35 <AnMaster> maybe a parameter for ssl to connect() too
10:17:50 <AnMaster> freenode doesn't support ssl though
10:18:05 <immibis> m.c=new IRCConnection(network,6667,6669,password,nick,nick,"Extensible EgoBot Clone");
10:18:15 <immibis> m.c.addIRCEventListener(m);
10:18:32 <AnMaster> immibis, ah right, you could let it handle the whole connection if you wanted
10:18:34 <fizzie> A trivial implementation is trivial. Certainly you can spend more lines, trying to interpret the 005 numerics sensibly and providing a more user-friendly object-oriented view of the IRC connection.
10:18:36 <AnMaster> so then it would need the nick too
10:18:52 <fizzie> Irssi's irc/core/*.c files hold a total of 9217 lines.
10:18:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, does OO view of IRC make sense?
10:19:08 <fizzie> It doesn't make too much unsense, for one thing.
10:19:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that include the user interface and such?
10:19:20 <immibis> it isn't very oop, it just has IRCConnections and IRCEventListeners
10:20:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes interpreting 005, rate limiting sending and such could be added sure.
10:20:31 <AnMaster> and I guess you could let it handle replying to server pings
10:21:02 <fizzie> Well, it includes the "user interface" in the sense that there are implementations for all (directly IRC-related) "/foo"-style commands, which wouldn't really be part of a generic IRC library.
10:21:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, formatting /who output nicely and such?
10:22:05 <fizzie> Not that. But what to send to the server when a client does a "/who".
10:23:57 <fizzie> I've seen at least one OO-style IRC library which took care of stuff like automagically remembering the people on channel (based on joins and quits) and so on.
10:24:31 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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10:25:49 <immibis> toboge has 3 languages you can't do much in (magritte, minimum, nil), one you can (brainfuck) and one you sometimes can (irp) :(
10:26:05 <immibis> oh, one more you can't (hello)
10:26:08 <EgoBot> Unknown command (HH) encountered
10:27:38 <fizzie> I could easily be replaced by a fungot instance that has just been trained with only my own speech.
10:27:39 <fungot> fizzie: and hanson explains why it works not. going via the main ' formula' twice, just because you're used to, but then when it takes too long
10:27:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
10:28:33 <immibis> fungot, could you replace fizzie?
10:28:34 <fungot> immibis: that could encode any non-negative integer, is a relationship. yay
10:28:40 <fungot> immibis: no, they are all
10:29:01 <Slereah> !swedish and hanson explains why it works not. going via the main ' formula' twice, just because you're used to, but then when it takes too long
10:29:01 <fizzie> fungot: Just believe in yourself and you can do it!
10:29:01 <EgoBot> und hunsun ixpleeens vhy it vurks nut. gueeng feea zee meeen ' furmoole' tveece-a, joost becoose-a yuoo're-a used tu, boot zeen vhee it tekes tuu lung
10:29:01 <fungot> fizzie: how wasn't the weather? :)
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10:41:18 <oerjan> <ehird> [[Eliezer Yudkowsky (pronounced .Frankensteen.)]] <-- bloody americans don't know it's "frankenstine"?
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12:11:09 <ehirdiphone> Actual LOL at "how wasn't the weather?". Gotta love fungot.
12:11:10 <fungot> ehirdiphone: i just spent three seconds wondering why `data track' by `data track' by `data track' by `data track' wouldn't play from this cd
12:11:48 <AnMaster> ehird, too many "by data track" repeated there to make sense
12:11:51 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: maybe not exactly that number of iterations
12:13:00 <ehirdiphone> I found a wonderful thing yesterday night; let me load up my trans-computer bookmarking system: http://gmail.com/
12:13:04 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I love the quote "how wasn't the weather" too
12:13:35 <ais523> heh, I'm going the other way round, I'm using my laptop as a cross-website email system
12:13:37 <AnMaster> interesting... vlc has an ncurses frontend...
12:13:46 <ais523> I finally managed to set up my Yahoo! Mail account to be sane
12:14:10 <ais523> not that I even really created it deliberately, it's just that both my main and secondary email have gone down
12:14:18 <ais523> and I happened to have a spare Yahoo! account lying around
12:14:32 <ais523> and yes, I am; I'm only using Yahoo! as a relay atm
12:14:36 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, why does he trust yahoo then?
12:14:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well right, but I meant as in a ncurses GUI for the playlist and so on
12:15:11 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't tried playing video with this frontend yet...
12:15:21 <ais523> I accidentally muddled VLC with VNC then, and got confused
12:16:06 <ehirdiphone> Here we go. http://www.smallbizcenter.info/magniwork.php?apid=A5M&apflag=1&gclid=CM7V14r9v5sCFd0B4wod6zhdEg&v=1. They claim literally to have a perpetual motion machine giving infinite free energy for $100 + $197 ~= $300.
12:17:13 * ais523 imagines what a playlist on a VNC would do
12:17:40 <ais523> maybe you could use it if you were one of those schools IT people who goes around looking at what the students are doing
12:17:49 <ais523> although a VNC isn't really perfect for that
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12:25:28 <AnMaster> ais523, a rather nice ncurses gui btw: http://omploader.org/vMXhrNA
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12:35:32 <ehirdiphone> Whoa, trippy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI
12:37:40 <ais523> AnMaster: you're linking to a screenshot of a curses prorgam?
12:37:40 <AnMaster> why were any cars driving on it by that point of time
12:37:52 <ais523> but curses is text-based!
12:38:02 <ehirdiphone> What we need is a VNC client for VLC, and to use it in the curses interface
12:38:04 <ais523> surely by now someone's invented a copy-and-paste-with-colour
12:38:21 <ehirdiphone> AnMasterwhy were any cars driving on it by that point of time
12:38:26 <ais523> there's ttyrec I suppose, but it's not quite the same thing
12:38:53 <AnMaster> ok, videos opens a X window with the ncurses frontend
12:39:01 <AnMaster> I guess video interface is a separate parameter
12:39:38 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, there is probably another parameter for it
12:39:52 <AnMaster> like there is for alsa vs. oss for audio backedn
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12:39:59 <AnMaster> just haven't found the right one yet
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15:37:22 <pikhq> oklodok: I'm an undergrad student in Missouri.
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16:06:20 <Dartus_Clicus> Let's see... I recognize Warrigal, ais, pikhq, and comex from ##nomic. ais was right, nomic and esolanging /do/ have a lot of people in common.
16:06:32 -!- Dartus_Clicus has changed nick to Darth_Cliche.
16:08:14 <Darth_Cliche> Didn't notice him. ehird = tusho = zuff, right?
16:08:45 <pikhq> Also, Oerjan (who's not here right now) used to play Agora.
16:10:23 <Darth_Cliche> according to the frappr map, pik, you live in Colorado?
16:11:33 <Darth_Cliche> Oh, and ihope is on here, according to the map. Another nomicer
16:11:58 <pikhq> Used to. Now live in Missouri...
16:14:07 <Darth_Cliche> I can't find ais anywhere on the map. I've check everywhere in both America and Britain
16:14:14 <ais523> Darth_Cliche: I'm not on it
16:14:21 <ais523> although you can deduce my current location from my email address
16:14:33 <ais523> well, my old, currently-nonfunctional one, anyway
16:14:41 <ais523> Darth_Cliche: ais523@bham.ac.uk
16:14:44 <ais523> the domain name should be clear enough
16:15:39 <Darth_Cliche> So, /another/ British person? Current British friends of mine: Kevan, ais523, Devenger (Scottish)
16:16:12 <ais523> esolangers tend to be either British or Scandinavian, although there are a few Americans, and a few people of other nationalities
16:16:57 <ais523> yep, one of the more surprising statistical tendencies
16:17:21 <Darth_Cliche> There are a higher percentage of Scandinavian websurfers in one year than Americans
16:17:48 -!- mtd has left (?).
16:18:16 <ais523> I was talking about the high proportion of Scandinavians, it's a lot higher than on the Internet generally
16:19:10 <Darth_Cliche> he invented Piet, Chef, and Ook, among other things
16:19:10 <ais523> yep, also Malcom Ryan's australian
16:19:26 <ais523> inventor of INTERCAL's threading and backtracking extensions
16:20:27 <Darth_Cliche> I have a friend from San Seriffe who codes Brainfuck
16:20:39 <ais523> anyone we know here, I wonder?
16:20:48 <ais523> there are a lot of BF programmers in the wild, though, so to speak
16:20:52 <ais523> it's an addictive language
16:21:35 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>+++++<-----<(-)*128(+-)*10000
16:21:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 15.8
16:21:58 <Deewiant> You don't have to program, really
16:21:59 <ais523> the sport was invented in Agora, incidentally
16:22:05 <ais523> and EgoBot's an esolang bot
16:22:14 <ais523> !bf_txtgen Darth Cliche
16:22:17 <EgoBot> 121 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>>++.>--.+++++++++++++++++.++.------------.<<-.>-.>++++.---.------.+++++.---.>-. [462]
16:22:22 <Deewiant> What I think I mean is that there's no higher level to it than the BF
16:22:25 <ais523> !brainfuck +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>>++.>--.+++++++++++++++++.++.------------.<<-.>-.>++++.---.------.+++++.---.>-.
16:22:31 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
16:22:42 <ais523> !bf8 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>>++.>--.+++++++++++++++++.++.------------.<<-.>-.>++++.---.------.+++++.---.>-.
16:22:48 <Deewiant> Whereas even in something like hello world, the BF acts on a much lower level than what you're trying for
16:23:10 <EgoBot> 132 +++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>------.>-.+.>-----.>++.<<.>.>.<<--------.>>.<+.<++++.>-.+.>----------------------. [581]
16:23:25 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
16:23:51 <Darth_Cliche> !bf8 +++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>------.>-.+.>-----.>++.<<.>.>.<<--------.>>.<+.<++++.>-.+.>----------------------.
16:24:03 <ais523> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>------.>-.+.>-----.>++.<<.>.>.<<--------.>>.<+.<++++.>-.+.>----------------------.
16:24:20 <ais523> ok, that's strange, why did fungot add a full stop?
16:24:21 <fungot> ais523: fnord. sah to be victorious, to endure, to hold out, as i recall
16:24:26 <ais523> ^bf ++++++++++..........
16:24:30 <ais523> oh, it prints newline as dot
16:25:15 <ais523> whoops, missed the colon
16:25:17 <ais523> !befunge98 "mmH">,:#_@
16:25:29 <ais523> !befunge98 "mmH">:#,_@
16:25:38 <ais523> Deewiant: I know, just my Befunge is a little rusty
16:25:52 <ais523> Darth_Cliche: that's an infinite loop
16:26:01 <ais523> nah, it kills infinite loops after a while
16:26:16 <ais523> hmm... where's thutubot got to?
16:27:10 -!- thutubot has joined.
16:27:33 <ais523> +ul (This is a test.)S
16:27:53 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
16:35:52 <ais523> Darth_Cliche: that's a no-op
16:36:00 <ais523> and a joke program in the original article
16:38:28 <Darth_Cliche> XCIX beer solum in parietis, XCIX beer solum. Take I down, obduco inter, XCVIII beer solum in parietis.
16:39:01 <ais523> sounds like the sort of thing you'd do in an INTERCAL beer progrm
16:39:12 <ais523> it outputs in Roman numerals by default; if you want decimal, you have to convert by hand
16:40:44 <Darth_Cliche> Now I'm reading a guide on DECLENSION AND CASE, the most evil things in the world
16:42:57 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE)
16:43:07 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|thutubot)
16:43:13 <fizzie> I really should make that thing persistent.
16:43:34 <fizzie> Or just give up. We had a fungot-toBogE loop today.
16:43:34 <fungot> fizzie: ( display " fnord ( unsigned char) fnord " fnord un fnord ooff fnord.
16:46:45 <ais523> obviously an EgoBot rival
16:46:52 <fizzie> It was here during the day.
16:46:55 <ais523> also, that misses Lambdabot
16:47:08 <ais523> and itself, although I assume that's dealt with elsewhere
16:47:36 <ais523> and ehird's replay bot, although I've forgotten what that's called
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16:49:32 <Hiato> ais523: I was going through my old maths books (for exams/SAT's) and I found a nice little box that said "Thanks to ais523" under which my teacher wrote "Is that a formula? Show substitution". Heh, just thought I'd let you know
16:51:23 <oklodok> oerjan: also, oklodok!!!!! <<< hi oerjie!
16:51:31 <oklodok> augur: oklodok! <<< hi again augie!
16:51:40 <oklodok> ehirdiphone: Hi oklodok. <<< hello phone dood!
16:52:38 <oklodok> pikhq: oklodok: I'm an undergrad student in Missouri. <<< okay, you just mentioned mit owns, so i checked.
16:53:17 <Darth_Cliche> MIT = Massachussetts Institute of Technology, not Missouri Institute of Technology
16:54:04 -!- comex has changed nick to judicaster.
16:54:07 <pikhq> Darth_Cliche: Well aware.
16:54:26 <pikhq> (though we did try to get my school renamed to "Missouri Institute of Technology".)
16:55:19 <oklodok> Darth_Cliche: oklodok: Darth Cliche! <<< Um... <<< i copy paste actually messages and add stuff after the <<<, makes no sense if your client shows messages in some other way.
16:55:35 <oklodok> pikhq: yes, you were very eager to tell they use scheme
16:55:44 <oklodok> unless i misunderstood you.
16:56:44 <fizzie> <pikhq> About the only thing we've got going for us is that our university system is pretty good – IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT. <ehird> That's true, I'd love to go to mit.
16:56:49 <fizzie> That was the recent thing.
16:56:59 <oklodok> and i thought it was you who told me that
16:57:10 <oklodok> i mean i knew it already, but i thought it was you who told it then
16:57:44 <oklodok> i'm referring to when i asked whether mit was good.
16:57:49 <fizzie> They don't use Scheme any more, anyway. At least in the iconic 6.001 course.
16:58:18 <oklodok> because i'm thinking trying out the american unis after a few years
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17:09:13 <fizzie> Heh, VirtualBox seems to have jumped from the 2.2 numbers directly to 3.0.
17:10:15 <oklodok> what does the sentence mean, and after that, what does the actual data mean
17:11:06 -!- Darth_Cliche has left (?).
17:11:16 <fizzie> I just mean that they've been numbering their (recent) releases 2.2.0, 2.2.2, 2.2.4 and one would assume the next one would have been 2.3.0, but it is 3.0.0 instead.
17:12:47 <fizzie> Well, or 2.3.0 or 2.2.6, depending on whether they actually did anything special. 3 is quite a jump, and seems it's "only" because it now supports SMP for the virtual machines.
17:13:30 <oklodok> some esolangs have even been known to do jumps like 1.6 -> 7.0
17:13:55 <AnMaster> iirc one ircd did something like that too.
17:14:23 <pikhq> fizzie: Also 3D support.
17:14:26 <fizzie> Slackware had their 4 -> 7 jump too.
17:14:39 <oklodok> i assumed fizzie would know what i'm referring to
17:14:41 <pikhq> Slackware did it just for the sake of version expansion. XD
17:14:43 <fizzie> 3D, schmee-dee. I don't believe it works.
17:15:01 <fizzie> RedHat was doing numbers like 6 or so, they had to catch up.
17:15:32 <oklodok> anyway i guess i have to admit my latter question made no sense.
17:15:42 <oklodok> didn't realize it was about version numbers
17:17:25 -!- M0ny has joined.
17:17:36 <oklodok> i still want an answer though
17:18:31 <fizzie> You want to know the meaning of the version numbers?
17:19:00 <oklodok> i want to know what that jump signifies.
17:19:13 <oklodok> what is the greater purpose beneath it
17:20:06 <fizzie> Officially they just want to communicate the fact that adding SMP and some sort of better 3D acceleration support is such a major change that it justifies a new version number. Unofficially, I think it has to do with world domination. Most things do.
17:20:45 <pikhq> Or getting in someone's pants.
17:23:29 <oklodok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:23:40 <oklodok> pikhq: are you sure it wasn't you who said they use scheme
17:25:00 <oklodok> although i guess you may remember your lines better than me.
17:25:18 <oklodok> i just don't like misremembering irc conversations
17:27:22 <oklodok> one of the only things i remember without explicitly committing them to my memory
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19:58:52 <oerjan> <ehirdiphone> Was it constant vaccuum instead? <-- vaccuum [sic] would be something like raining cows, i think. so maybe.
20:03:02 <oerjan> also, is the ehirdiphone anything like the gaffophone?
20:05:13 <oerjan> what the heck wikipedia says that comics hasn't been translated to english!
20:05:36 <oerjan> more proof english speakers are really aliens from another planet
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20:16:11 <oerjan> <ais523> yep, also Malcom Ryan's australian
20:16:19 <oerjan> he's also an ancient agoran
20:17:04 <fizzie> Misread "he's also an ancient algorithm".
20:19:17 * pikhq kills oerjan for telling the truth about the Anglo-Frisian languages
20:20:13 <oerjan> in fact have i have a vague recall that he may have been responsible for the special gender-neutral pronoun, as Blob didn't present as either male or female
20:20:46 <pikhq> s/recall/recollection/
20:21:00 <pikhq> Recall is the verb; recollection is how you noun it.
20:21:25 <oerjan> total recollection there
20:22:07 <pikhq> Dammit, English is screwy.
20:22:08 <oerjan> pikhq: when did i tell the truth about the anglo-frisian languages?
20:22:44 * oerjan stops channeling AnMaster
20:22:59 <oerjan> and in so doing, inevitably causes another ?
20:23:21 <oerjan> darn i was hoping to get that comment in before AnMaster's
20:23:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was playing freeciv, did you want anything when you highlighted me?
20:23:37 <AnMaster> I'm* going back playing freeciv
20:23:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: only to have you act stereotypically
20:23:49 <ais523> AnMaster: set your highlight to only higlight you if your name's at the start of the line
20:23:54 <ais523> to avoid this sort of awkward moment
20:24:02 <AnMaster> really ais523? Sure that is a good idea?
20:24:17 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure, it depends on what you want highlighting to do for you
20:24:30 <ais523> if it's only comments directed at you, then start-of-line may be a good idea
20:24:35 <oerjan> wait, _i_ am annoyed that irssi _doesn't_ highlight all instances of my nick
20:24:37 <ais523> if you want to know comments about you, then higlight everywhere
20:24:53 <ais523> oerjan: what, I thought all IRC clients did by default?
20:25:40 <oerjan> i downloaded a simple dark on white one
20:26:21 <oerjan> it mostly highlights oerjan at the start
20:27:31 <Asztal> hilight_nick_matches = ON
20:28:12 <oerjan> it just doesn't catch all instances
20:29:27 <Asztal> `haskell putStrLn "What's an Asztal?"
20:29:44 <oerjan> irssi's online option documentation really sucks
20:29:53 <oerjan> where by sucks, i mean is nonexistent
20:30:51 <oerjan> HackEgo doesn't have haskell afaik
20:30:56 <HackEgo> asm-test \ asm-test.S \ asm-test.c \ bin \ busybox \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.28081
20:31:03 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ strfile \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
20:31:20 <Asztal> !haskell putStrLn "What's an Asztal?"
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20:31:44 <Asztal> well, that highlighted me, but I don't know what setting does that
20:32:17 <oerjan> !haskell interact.const$"What's an oerjan?"
20:33:19 <oerjan> !haskell interact.const$"oerjan is an alien from the lesser Magellanic cloud"
20:33:21 <EgoBot> oerjan is an alien from the lesser Magellanic cloud
20:33:29 <fizzie> A manually set "/hilight oerjan" should probably match everywhere in line.
20:35:11 <fizzie> There's also the "-full" flag; "/hilight -full foo" highlights only where "foo" is a separate word. Though I guess in your case you won't get very many false positives from random words containing the substring "oerjan".
20:35:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about "oerjan" followed by space, but in the middle of the line
20:35:51 <oerjan> too late i turned on fizzie's suggestion
20:36:43 <oerjan> also not using -full probably helps catching the alternate nick too, etc.
20:38:36 <AnMaster> hm right, your nick isn't likely as a part of another word
20:39:01 <oerjan> hm that highlighted but with a different color
20:39:27 <oerjan> maybe that's just as well
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20:57:17 <ehird> 08:15:39 <Darth_Cliche> So, /another/ British person? Current British friends of mine: Kevan, ais523, Devenger (Scottish)
20:57:53 <ehird> 08:20:27 <Darth_Cliche> I have a friend from San Seriffe who codes Brainfuck
20:57:57 <ehird> I hate to break this to you.
20:59:20 <ehird> 08:35:52 <ais523> Darth_Cliche: that's a no-op
20:59:20 <ehird> 08:36:00 <ais523> and a joke program in the original article
20:59:32 <ehird> the adder believed it was legit
21:00:11 <ehird> 08:47:36 <ais523> and ehird's replay bot, although I've forgotten what that's called
21:00:37 <ehird> 08:49:32 <Hiato> ais523: I was going through my old maths books (for exams/SAT's) and I found a nice little box that said "Thanks to ais523" under which my teacher wrote "Is that a formula? Show substitution". Heh, just thought I'd let you know
21:01:14 <ehird> 08:51:31 <oklodok> augur: oklodok! <<< hi again augie!
21:02:37 <ehird> 12:16:11 <oerjan> <ais523> yep, also Malcom Ryan's australian
21:02:37 <ehird> 12:16:19 <oerjan> he's also an ancient agoran
21:02:38 <ehird> 12:16:28 <ais523> ooh, interesting
21:02:40 <ehird> 12:16:47 <oerjan> ("Blob")
21:02:42 <ehird> Blob is an esolanger?!
21:02:48 <ehird> I think we have our first non-human esolanger.
21:02:59 <ehird> 12:20:13 <oerjan> in fact have i have a vague recall that he may have been responsible for the special gender-neutral pronoun, as Blob didn't present as either male or female
21:03:15 <ehird> didn't agora used to use singular they before blob?
21:03:28 <ehird> 12:22:44 * oerjan stops channeling AnMaster
21:03:28 <ehird> 12:22:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, ?
21:03:29 <ehird> 12:22:59 <oerjan> and in so doing, inevitably causes another ?
21:03:34 <ehird> AnMaster: say "what?" in a while
21:03:54 <ehird> this is a momentous occasion
21:04:01 <oerjan> given blob joined within the first year of agora, if not even at the start...
21:05:46 <ehird> 12:30:51 <oerjan> HackEgo doesn't have haskell afaik
21:14:13 <ehird> "At a time when the public display and discourse about matters of faith have been under attack, a new poll indicates most Americans – 63 percent – believe the Bible is literally true and the Word of God."
21:15:58 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:22:26 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined.
21:28:29 <oerjan> also, 95% of statisticians believe most polls are flawed, and even if they aren't, the results are misrepresented. *ducks*
21:31:43 <Deewiant> And 95% of the time, they're right.
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21:47:55 <AnMaster> is it possible to store metadata in flac? Like composer and title?
21:48:14 <pikhq> Yes, though it depends on which container format you're using.
21:48:40 <pikhq> The FLAC container format has a limited metadata format that amounts to a subset of Ogg comments.
21:48:47 <AnMaster> as in, the file is called *.flac
21:48:53 <pikhq> The Ogg container format, obviously, has Ogg comments.
21:49:05 <pikhq> Yes, you can have metadata.
21:49:07 <AnMaster> /mnt/phoenix/musik/vivaldi/track13.flac: FLAC audio bitstream data, 16 bit, stereo, 44.1 kHz, 9150456 samples
21:49:28 <pikhq> That's FLAC in the FLAC container format.
21:49:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, confusing... Anyway I need composer, symphony and movement. That's all
21:49:55 <AnMaster> and some command line tool to set them
21:50:06 <AnMaster> since I wish to import this from data I have prepared already
21:50:25 <AnMaster> so I plan to write a short shell script to automate the adding
21:51:15 <pikhq> It's part of FLAC.
21:51:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Nobody uses ogg flac
21:51:25 <ehird> everyone uses flac flac
21:51:29 <ehird> and it uses ogg metadata
21:51:34 <ehird> well, same allowable stuff
21:51:44 <ehird> AnMaster: don't name it "track13", dammit
21:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, it was cdparanoia who did
21:52:03 <pikhq> ehird: I've used it when storing some intermediates from video compression jobs in an Ogg container.
21:52:04 <AnMaster> then I converted the *.cdda to flac
21:52:09 <ehird> AnMaster: *"cdparanoia did that"
21:52:31 <ehird> "who did" is still a bad way to end a sentence
21:52:40 <ehird> "cdparanoia did that" is the only idiomatic way i can think of
21:52:44 <AnMaster> and so ehird corrects English again!
21:53:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I was playing along. So whoosh is wrong :P
21:54:23 <ehird> the language of butt lol ^.^
21:54:29 <ehird> i wish I could use plan9
21:54:36 <ehird> maybe I'll get a fileserver and put plan9 on it
21:54:53 <ehird> AnMaster: cuz i'm a filthy capitalist desktop user and i like lotses of applications.
21:55:05 <ehird> could run it as a fileserver though
21:55:10 <ehird> + maybe music server of some sort
21:55:26 <ehird> could run mpd on linux backed by a 9p filesystem, perhaps
21:56:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, have you used metaflac?
21:57:04 <ehird> AnMaster: it's trivial
21:57:07 <ehird> read the flac website
21:57:36 <ehird> pikhq: try quod libet as a tagger
21:58:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh well... I just can't find the option to add a tag, lots of other options, like adding replay-gain, copying from other file, adding picture(‽), and various other things
21:58:11 <ehird> although as a music player it lacks the fundamental feature of being an mpd client.
21:58:25 <ehird> AnMaster: use a gui editor, you'll be a lot calmer
21:58:27 <AnMaster> now to find a list of valid tags :)
21:58:29 <ehird> also, adding a picture = album art
21:58:31 <ehird> yes, it is supported
21:58:34 <ehird> AnMaster: ogg tags are freeform
21:58:36 <ehird> you have to know the conventions
21:58:45 <ehird> here's two: TITLE, ALBUM.
21:58:53 <AnMaster> ehird, for about 300 flac files from prepared tab separated files?
21:59:02 <ehird> ogg tags are freeform
21:59:04 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, if you do that with a GUI editor
21:59:12 <ehird> no, this is standard
21:59:14 <ehird> you use TITLE for the title
21:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, surely there is some "usual convention"
21:59:16 <ehird> ALBUM for the album
21:59:19 <ehird> and I forget all the rest
21:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I'm telling you FFS
21:59:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I need composer, symphony, movement. Album? What?
21:59:50 <ehird> ......you don't know what an album is?
22:00:04 <AnMaster> I meant, doesn't make sense here
22:00:05 <ehird> Anyway, google it.
22:00:20 <AnMaster> it would be like: "Complete Symphonies, Volume 3" or such
22:00:44 <ehird> AnMaster: i suggest peeking at the source of http://easytag.sourceforge.net/ and seeing what it does.
22:05:13 <ehird> how many cds are you ripping?
22:05:34 <AnMaster> ehird, ~30 with classical music iirc
22:05:58 <AnMaster> and they are all ripped and "flacced"
22:09:12 <ehird> AnMaster: You used flac --best, right?
22:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc yes. This was about 1-2 weeks ago I did the actual ripping and conversion...
22:09:59 <AnMaster> also I used "did" instead of "didn't" because I didn't want to follow the norm :P
22:10:18 <ehird> But "did like" is invalid.
22:10:48 <ehird> OK, not strictly invalid; incredibly unidiomatic.
22:10:53 <ehird> It sounds completely wrong.
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22:13:40 <AnMaster> http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/doc/v-comment.html btw
22:14:34 <ehird> AnMaster: right, just invent your own TAGS for things like MOVEMENT
22:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, freedb tends to use something like: "Opus 3 - Allegro" or similar for it's title entry
22:15:41 <ehird> Well, you could do that, but it's evil :P
22:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, sometimes it is in extra instead.
22:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, if cd-info could fetch from it...
22:16:08 <ehird> Use another program?
22:16:16 <ehird> FreeDB has utterly crap results and is totally unmoderated; MusicBrainz is correct to the point of extreme pedanticism.
22:16:26 <ehird> Also, it has a program that can tag FLACs, iirc.
22:16:29 <AnMaster> ehird, command line one that can just dump the stuff to a text file for all tracks of the cd currently inserted?
22:16:34 <ehird> You don't need that.
22:16:38 <ehird> MusicBrainz analyzes the files
22:16:42 <ehird> to determine what track it is
22:16:49 <ehird> You can just set it on your directory of FLACs and it'll tag 'em all
22:17:20 <ehird> some sort of weird proprietary thing they licensed from a huge company nowadays I think
22:17:21 <AnMaster> and how would it work for lossy compression like mp3 or ogg
22:17:24 <ehird> but it's never wrong
22:17:27 <ehird> AnMaster: it's very magical
22:17:35 <ehird> I've never had it misidentify a file
22:17:39 <ehird> AnMaster: think so, yes
22:17:41 <ehird> their stuff is open source.
22:17:47 <ais523> issue now: AnMaster said hi, but it was sufficiently long ago that I'll be nickpinging him out of context if I reply
22:17:48 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/; go with Picard or sth
22:18:03 <AnMaster> ehird, since I don't like to upload a 16 MB *.flac
22:21:33 <ehird> AnMaster: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Classical_Music_FAQ :p
22:24:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, I tried easytags. How do you prevent it asking every time if I want to rename the file? I don't want to rename the file.
22:24:38 <AnMaster> can't find any setting for that
22:26:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Just use Picar
22:26:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's a "do this for every file" option in the checkbox.
22:26:27 <ehird> Set directory, click tag, get coffee.
22:26:31 <pikhq> Erm. In the dialog.
22:26:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, no? Are you using ~arch?
22:26:57 <pikhq> Well, I am for some things, but not that.
22:30:00 * pikhq needs to check out MusicBrainz.
22:30:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, also easytag can't add non-standard tags it seems?
22:31:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Okay, so it's not all that great. Figure out MusicBrainz, and I think I'll do the same.
22:33:14 <ehird> pikhq: "Figure out"?
22:33:20 <ehird> Install picard. Point at directory. Snore.
22:34:02 <ehird> If not, use another client.
22:34:15 <AnMaster> would be useful to know *before* installing
22:34:25 <ehird> yeah, typing "emerge picard" is soo hard
22:34:32 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PicardDownload
22:34:34 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Picard_Tagger
22:34:39 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Picard_Tagger#Documentation_for_Users
22:34:50 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Picard_FAQ
22:34:52 <ehird> Yes, it supports FLAC.
22:35:12 <ehird> So install it, open the root directory, click it, click "tag" or whatever the UI is these days, and it'll all be filled automatically.
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22:35:46 <ehird> AnMaster: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/How_To_Tag_Files_With_Picard
22:35:50 <ehird> an explanation of how to use the weird UI
22:36:01 <ehird> tl;dr — drag your directory to unmatched files. click cluster.
22:36:16 <ehird> click lookup on the "cluster" heading.
22:36:20 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't it you who said that a GUI shouldn't need any documentation?
22:36:27 <ehird> check they work okay. press "save"
22:36:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it shouldn't
22:36:34 <ehird> but picard has a bad ui :)
22:36:43 <ehird> one-time operation though
22:36:49 <ehird> well, for the majority
22:36:54 <ehird> ripping a cd, maybe takes 30 seconds extra
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22:37:00 <ehird> worth it for the quality
22:40:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ripping a cd takes a few minutes...?
22:40:36 <ehird> I meant using picard adds 30sec time to ripping
22:40:50 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if movement is in a separate field or not
22:41:29 <AnMaster> ehird, since I prefer my own planned format for the metadata
22:41:42 <ehird> Then MusicBrainz is not for you and you have serious OCD problems.
22:41:43 <AnMaster> ehird, where do I drag the files from btw?
22:42:11 <ehird> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:42:22 <ehird> Anyway, if you're going to mangle the metadata, don't bother.
22:42:25 <ehird> It'll just be painful.
22:42:41 <ehird> 22:41 AnMaster: ehird, since I prefer my own planned format for the metadata
22:42:57 <ehird> Just hand-write them if you're going to do that.
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22:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I can use a script to fix it?
22:43:11 <AnMaster> ehird, as in, I already have it parsed in text files as I said above -_-
22:43:18 <ehird> I would seriously suggest against using MusicBrainz if you're going to change the metadata.
22:44:07 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:44:46 <ehird> Because Picard's whole appeal is "drag, click, done", and updating the metadata will be a bitch.
22:44:52 <ehird> (Because it IS updated from time to time.)
22:45:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I could read it with metaflac and then rewrite it?
22:45:20 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't likely I will run picard more than once...
22:45:21 <ehird> I have an idea. Why not repeat what you said two lines ago?!
22:45:31 <AnMaster> the files will be moved afterwards soon again
22:45:50 <AnMaster> so if it tries to remember where the files were next time it starts it will have issues.
22:48:04 <AnMaster> err. after dragging the files to unmatched, I should click cluster right?
22:48:09 <AnMaster> so why doesn't anything happen
22:48:36 <ehird> AnMaster: highlight unmatched
22:48:38 <ehird> then click cluster
22:49:07 <ehird> Find out which step of http://musicbrainz.org/doc/How_To_Tag_Files_With_Picard you deviated from and undeviate.
22:49:10 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it doesn't know the cd? if so, why not say it instead of just doing nothing
22:49:11 <ehird> Wait for Picard to process the files (the names will turn from grey to black) and then click on the cluster button in the toolbar to cluster files into album clusters.
22:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you did drag your whole library right?
22:49:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
22:49:42 <AnMaster> ehird, one cd. since it is sorted in the file system as one directory per cd
22:49:53 <ehird> Yes, and they both have a common parent, I would assume.....
22:50:25 <ehird> I nominate your ethos and organizational structure for the "Least Tenable To MusicBrainz" award 2009.
22:50:36 <AnMaster> yes it does, that is the "kraus" for the composer. Like this: /mnt/phoenix/musik/kraus/vol1 /mnt/phoenix/musik/kraus/vol2 and so on
22:52:02 <AnMaster> ehird, clicking "cluster" is just a nop
22:52:25 <ehird> Are the files gray or black?
22:52:35 <ehird> You did something wrong.
22:52:58 <AnMaster> then why did I do something wrong?
22:53:08 <ehird> Read the file I linked, follow it word for wrod.
22:53:20 <ehird> No you didn't, otherwise it would have worked.
22:53:21 <AnMaster> Under 'View' enable 'File Browser'.
22:53:22 <AnMaster> Select a directory or files and drag them to the Unmatched Files folder.
22:53:26 <AnMaster> Wait for Picard to process the files (the names will turn from grey to black) and then click on the cluster button in the toolbar to cluster files into album clusters.
22:53:34 <AnMaster> they were black right from the start
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22:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, are they supposed to be black right away?
22:54:19 <ehird> Do you have a 400mhz processor?
22:55:09 <AnMaster> anyway, cluster does completely nothing
22:56:31 <ehird> Do they not move to the Clusters folder?
22:56:48 <ehird> Buy a new computer that isn't broken.
22:57:16 <AnMaster> my conclusion: picard is either shit or has a very shitty UI.
22:57:32 <ehird> You did something wrong, or your installation of it is broken, or your system is broken.
22:57:40 <ehird> Or you've run into the AnMaster-is-using-me bug.
22:57:55 <ehird> I find that extremely unlikely, as it is both popular and I have used it personally.
22:58:07 <ehird> It is unlikely that everyone else is just hallucinating it working perfectly.
22:58:20 <ehird> You prescribe too much value to your anecdotal experience.
22:58:41 <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uoM-PdJhtmk
22:58:46 <ehird> Maybe this screencast would help.
22:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, want a screenshot after and before clicking cluster? They would be the same, pixel by pixel
23:00:12 <AnMaster> ehird, all examples have files which already contain *some* metadata it seems?
23:00:20 <ehird> utterly irrelevant
23:00:20 <AnMaster> but in this case the files contain no metadata whatsoever
23:00:33 <ehird> Just click Lookup before Cluster, it seems.
23:00:37 <ehird> CD Lookup, that is.
23:00:41 <ehird> CD Lookup → Cluster → Lookup.
23:00:49 <AnMaster> ehird, "http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PicardDocumentation#Basic_Picard_Documentation"
23:01:34 <AnMaster> ehird, cd lookup is greyed out however. Should I have the CD inserted while doing that? Can't it figure it out from the files alone...
23:01:45 <ehird> Uh, highlight the files?
23:01:59 <ehird> i mean individually btw
23:02:04 <AnMaster> ehird, grayed out and tried it
23:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: is Lookup grayed out?
23:02:35 <ehird> Press Lookup, then
23:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, lookup says "no matches found"
23:03:03 <AnMaster> how useful. freedb has them btw
23:03:04 <ehird> How obscure is this performance exactly
23:03:18 <ais523> what is this conversation even about?
23:03:18 <ehird> Look it up manually on http://musicbrainz.org/; ur obviously doin it rong.
23:03:37 <AnMaster> ehird, Vivaldi - The Four Seasons - City of London Sinfonia - Virgo Records - Recorded 1991
23:03:44 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster is using every failing he has with a piece of software I recommended in an attempt to help him out to yell "fail" at me and call the software shit.
23:04:15 <AnMaster> ehird, the fact that it doesn't seem to work seems relevant when deciding if something works or not...
23:05:04 <AnMaster> hah. it managed to match some of the other files. To completely wrong CDs. Like: Das Licht der Phantasie (disc 1) - Terry Pratchett
23:05:22 <AnMaster> ehird, complete and utter fail if it misidentifies instead of saying "not known"
23:05:26 <ehird> You're certainly doing it wrong.
23:05:32 <ehird> FreeDB is the one that misidentifies and returns wrong tags all the time.
23:05:50 <ehird> Yes, because you live in opposites world.
23:06:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, Vivaldi - The Four Seasons - City of London Sinfonia - Virgo Records - Recorded 1991 <-- I tried searching for various parts of that. But I can't figure out their search form thingy...
23:06:45 <AnMaster> so I'm not sure if I searched wrong
23:07:04 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/search.html
23:07:11 <ehird> Just use free text.
23:07:23 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/ad79836d-9849-44df-8789-180bbc823f3c.html
23:07:25 <AnMaster> ah, it said "textsearch" for me in the url
23:08:01 <AnMaster> ehird, the album I have is not there
23:08:02 <ehird> Then grep "four seasons".
23:08:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Then it's so obscure it barely exists...
23:08:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I know it is released 1991
23:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, do I need to create an account? If so fuck it, freedb has an entry for it.
23:09:17 <ehird> AnMaster: That's funny; you chastise me for not reporting bugs to projects' BugZilla, which has an awful interface and requires registration with an email and you can't even pick your own password.
23:09:24 <ehird> Yet a simple registration process to add to MusicBrainz is too much?
23:09:29 <ehird> You truly are a fine hypocrite.
23:09:34 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, it manages to identify 5 tracks out of 15 on another cd btw.
23:09:41 <ais523> ehird: I'm relatively sure you can pick your own BugZilla password
23:09:46 <ehird> ais523: only post-registration
23:09:59 <ais523> ehird: yes, that makes sense
23:10:03 <ais523> it's basically the same as using a confirm code
23:10:09 <ais523> just the confirm code goes in the password field
23:10:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Right, and other OSs don't have the problems I had with Arch.
23:10:32 <ehird> Yet you still told me to report them.
23:10:52 <ais523> I like to report bugs anyway
23:11:00 <ais523> if nothing else, it gives me information on which projects respond to bugs quickly
23:11:15 <AnMaster> anyway, why can't they just import everything from freedb and merge it with their own index
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23:11:26 <ehird> Because FreeDB's index is broken, mistagged and always wrong.
23:11:32 <ehird> it was created BECAUSE freedb is intolerable
23:11:48 <AnMaster> ehird, formatting for tags is inconsistent yes. But apart from that it works perfectly
23:12:02 <ehird> Yes, BECAUSE YOU LIVE IN THE MOST INCORRECT OPPOSITES WORLD I'VE EVER HEARD OF!
23:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I have used it for over 30 cds, it reported everything correctly, sometimes small typos yes, and sometimes inconsistent naming of tracks and so on
23:12:39 <AnMaster> but at least it was always roughly correct.
23:12:47 <ehird> I'm not going to talk to you because you're patently ignoring what I say.
23:13:03 <AnMaster> ehird, why does musicbrainz like to give a completely wrong result instead of saying "not known"?
23:13:13 <ehird> IT DOESN'T! FREEDB DOES!
23:13:35 <ehird> You generalise your stupid individual experience — that has never, ever failed to be incorrect and highly abnormal — to THE GENERAL CASE, because you're an IDIOT who doesn't understand statistics and has a penchant for breaking everything you use. Fuck off!
23:13:48 <AnMaster> ehird, it actually works on one of the newer cds
23:13:55 <AnMaster> but none of the cds older than 1995
23:14:13 <AnMaster> but most cds I have are from 1992 or older so...
23:14:31 <ehird> It works perfectly on my CDs from 1969 onwards.
23:14:36 <AnMaster> this one is from 1985 for example
23:16:01 <AnMaster> ehird, care to look at this screenshot for example: http://omploader.org/vMXhucQ
23:16:28 <AnMaster> ehird, that is after using lookup
23:16:37 <ehird> Wow, you truly do lack comprehension of anything.
23:16:53 <ehird> I'm going to talk in alien language now, because it'll actually improve my communication.
23:16:54 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it not mistag here?
23:17:06 <ehird> Gab flubb dirpmoglaaaaaaa tubadinoshçtok.
23:17:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> IT DOESN'T! FREEDB DOES!
23:17:29 <ehird> Qüoỏnt’glubakk no idioten.
23:17:41 <AnMaster> ais523, can you make ehird understand the issue? He seems dense today
23:18:17 <AnMaster> it fails for kraus too, giving wrong results
23:18:22 <AnMaster> maybe it just fails at flac. not sure
23:18:26 <AnMaster> don't have any non-flac to try with
23:18:28 <ehird> ais523: If you're in the mood for honoring requests about arguments, please explain AnMaster what generalization means, and why "MusicBrainz isn't the one that mistags, FreeDB is" does not mean a total logical absolute, and how he's generalizing a few individual experiences (stupidly) to a whole, even though they're highly abnormal.
23:18:34 <ehird> That would be nice.
23:19:06 <AnMaster> ehird, in my experience, freedb works better than this picard at least
23:19:16 <AnMaster> Album: [couldn't load album 5f26e407-763b-43f0-904a-0bff110ce3c7]
23:19:25 <AnMaster> maybe they are having some server issue atm?
23:19:37 <AnMaster> and that was a rather common cd. Enya
23:21:12 <AnMaster> ehird, using "scan" works better it seems than "lookup"
23:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the difference, and why not tell me that that was the issue instead
23:21:36 <ehird> Because I'm not a Picard expert, I just use it and it works fine.
23:21:37 <AnMaster> it still misidentifies some, but not as many
23:21:38 <ehird> You just break everything.
23:21:50 <AnMaster> ehird, do your files have any metadata in them before?
23:22:12 <ehird> It's been a while, but Picard hasn't changed since then.
23:24:56 <AnMaster> ehird, cluster directly works if there is already metadata in the files, not otherwise
23:30:39 <AnMaster> "Instead of using the above release-oriented and metadata-dependent lookup; Picard can try and tag your files 1-by-1 based on their AudioFingerprint. If you select a set of files in the left-hand pane and click "Scan", Picard will calculate an AudioFingerprint for your files and query MusicBrainz to find a Track that matches the PUID located from this fingerprint."
23:30:52 <AnMaster> reading the manual helps a bit, it is still missing one of them though
23:31:05 <AnMaster> however. Your misdirections certainly didn't help ehird.
23:31:34 <ehird> Misdirections. I was trying to fucking mislead you. You really think that don't you? You think I'm some sort of fucking MusicBrainz Picard expert, willingly leading you into the caverns of failure.
23:31:47 <AnMaster> unintentional misdirections of course
23:31:59 <ehird> AN UNINTENTIONAL MISDIRECTION IS NOT!
23:35:53 <AnMaster> ehird, the result is the same whatever you call it
23:36:10 <ehird> No, misdirection has to be willful.
23:36:33 <AnMaster> ehird, using easytag + freedb however also adds the year and genre, picard only sets title/artist/album
23:36:48 <AnMaster> ehird, at least for this example...
23:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, http://musicbrainz.org:80/track/137a39a5-7afa-43ce-94ad-12995f07c6c5.html?tport=8000
23:37:44 <ehird> is part of release http://musicbrainz.org/release/7b877a93-d7ce-4467-95b1-c13a194d5e4d.html
23:38:03 <AnMaster> ehird, different dates for the different tracks though
23:38:11 <AnMaster> some recorded in 1984, some in 1985
23:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, according to the cd cover
23:38:34 <AnMaster> oh and typing it in manually would have been faster...
23:38:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:41:54 <AnMaster> ehird, another thing that confused it: a re-release of a LP as a CD with some new bonus tracks. it couldn't decide which cd to pick from...
23:42:11 <ehird> You live in some alternate universe where musicbrainz is simplistic and inferior to the accurate FreeDB.
23:42:13 <AnMaster> it ended up picking from a total of 4 cds.
23:42:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems to be the case for the music I have...
23:43:28 <AnMaster> http://musicbrainz.org:80/album/b964c445-4bbd-485c-8b64-67dc43a32957.html?tport=8000
23:43:29 <AnMaster> http://musicbrainz.org:80/album/a30b65a1-89c4-4820-b327-592821eda5a9.html?tport=8000
23:44:18 <AnMaster> ehird, it ends up identifying some tracks from the first, and some from the latter. And they are all from that album yes. But there is only one of them afaik.
23:44:29 <ehird> You didn't cluster them.
23:44:34 <ehird> If you did, it would restrict to one release.
23:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I couldn't because THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS METADATA IN THE FILES.
23:44:47 <ehird> You can cluster manually, retard.
23:44:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not according to the docs
23:45:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Drag, drop. And if it knows what CD it's from, it WILL cluster.
23:45:16 <ehird> You just have to look it up first.
23:45:18 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But those two are the same cd
23:45:29 <AnMaster> so it is equally well either of them
23:45:37 <ehird> Not retarded; different release variations.
23:45:59 <ehird> The latter is Japan, as you can see.
23:46:03 <ehird> The former is UK, Germany, Canada and US
23:46:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Look at the bottom.
23:46:15 <ehird> MusicBrainz separates all discs that differ.
23:46:17 <AnMaster> ehird, um. the stuff on the cd is exactly the same right?
23:46:27 <AnMaster> ehird, or do you mean the cover differ?
23:46:29 <ehird> Otherwise the disc ID would be the same.
23:46:46 <AnMaster> http://musicbrainz.org:80/album/b964c445-4bbd-485c-8b64-67dc43a32957.html?tport=8000 lists several disc ids
23:46:58 <ehird> They differ, almost certainly.
23:47:35 <AnMaster> ah right, one has a track "Oriel Window" too
23:47:47 <ehird> There you go, then.
23:48:04 <AnMaster> ehird, still it decided that one of the files belonged to none of the disks. It hated my track 02
23:48:13 <ehird> Just cluster 'em and do a lookup.
23:48:21 <ehird> I dunno how it's breaking so much for you.
23:48:25 <AnMaster> ehird, can't cluster before scan
23:48:29 <AnMaster> scan is the only one that works
23:48:32 <ehird> Scan, cluster, then scan.
23:49:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also it still refuses to know that vivaldi cd
23:49:35 <ehird> Add it to the DB so that MusicBrainz has more bizarrely obscure things.
23:49:58 <ehird> Then there's been a mistake.
23:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I would have to learn their format.
23:50:13 <AnMaster> ehird, and write it all in manually
23:50:20 <AnMaster> easier to just use freedb for that one.
23:50:21 <ehird> It has a web interface and a specific wiki page for classical music.
23:50:35 <ehird> AnMaster: it is also easy not to report bugs. do you really want to be a hypocrite of such high caliber?
23:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it is easy to report bugs
23:51:09 <ehird> go through tedious bugzilla registration. fill in 500 fields, most of which you don't know. give detailed description.
23:51:28 <ehird> go through simple musicbrainz registration. skim over classical music guidelines. fill in just a few fields, which you know by virtue of having the cd.
23:51:30 <AnMaster> ehird, once you learn one bugzilla you learn them all mostly
23:51:39 <ehird> the latter is distinctly simpler.
23:51:43 <AnMaster> and most bugzillas has some "wizard" variant of reporting
23:52:22 <AnMaster> while it's UI is not very good either, it is not as confusing as that of picard
23:52:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Then don't ever fucking get holier-than-thou at me when I have a problem, whine, and don't report it as a bug.
23:52:36 <AnMaster> ehird, also it knows one of the four volumes of kraus music I have.
23:52:54 <ehird> You have great skill at ignoring those very lines that show you to be a hypocrite.
23:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, a difference is that all bugzillas have basically the same interface
23:53:37 <AnMaster> other bug trackers may not of course..
23:53:43 <AnMaster> anyway, how hard is it to register?
23:53:50 <ehird> all musicbrainz have the same interface.
23:53:59 <ehird> AnMaster: funny that. bugzillas require your email.
23:54:00 <AnMaster> ehird, there is only one, so not a valid argument
23:54:02 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/user/register.html
23:54:04 <ehird> no email required.
23:54:18 <AnMaster> ehird, can you tag it from inside picard?
23:54:26 <AnMaster> or do you need to use messy web browser?
23:54:31 <ehird> No. Picard is a program to tag your music library. There is a simple, clean web interface.
23:54:40 <ehird> Guess what? BugZilla has a crufty web interface!
23:54:53 <ehird> God, and you call my a hypocrite.
23:54:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it does. I use a command line frontend called bugz
23:55:08 <ehird> Write a fucking command line interface to MB then, you shithead.
23:57:46 <AnMaster> ehird, funny thing: the times listed on the back of the cd doesn't match the actual track lengths exactly
23:58:01 <AnMaster> 7:01 says the cd cover, 7:05 says the computer
23:58:16 <ehird> Meh. I have CDs that have two tracks' lengths mixed, and some with misspellings of the track titles.
23:58:28 <ehird> All three from the same band; I wonder if it's a secret code.
23:58:40 <AnMaster> Naxos is a major label for classical music
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23:58:48 <ehird> I mean major major label.
23:58:56 <ehird> As in "is mainly known for releasing pop music" label.
23:59:11 <AnMaster> don't think I have any of that :P
00:00:05 <ehird> Let's see... Universal Records and Warner Bros.
00:00:16 <AnMaster> ok fun, freedb have three entries for this. All have slight misspellings, but the average would be correct...
00:01:01 <ehird> "HA HA, I thought this article would be about a bunch of crazed fanatics trying to make Ubuntu dependent on Haskell.
00:01:03 <ehird> http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono"
00:01:07 -!- M0ny has quit.
00:01:09 <ehird> 1/10 F----- would not be trolled again
00:02:17 <AnMaster> musicbrainz has nothing on that cd however
00:02:38 <ais523> hmm... would Ubuntu depending on GHC bring out the same people who get angry at Mono dependencies, I wonder?
00:02:48 <ais523> or just the people who get angry at anything depending on GHC because it's so hard to compile?
00:03:09 <ehird> I don't think GHC has any supposed patent problems........................
00:03:17 <ehird> Or indeed any corporate interests.
00:03:27 <ais523> yes, but it's from Microsoft!!!!!!1one1
00:03:29 <ehird> Unless you think the Industrial Haskell Group is an evil illuminati.
00:03:33 <ehird> ais523: it's not even that
00:03:41 <ehird> some of the contributors happen to work for microsoft
00:03:45 <ehird> ghc isn't even their work
00:03:50 <ehird> and haskell and ghc have existed long before that
00:03:57 <ais523> yes, but you know how far people can take this sort of thing
00:04:27 <ehird> MONO: NOW YOUR FREE SOFTWARE GNU/LINUX OPERATING SYSTEM CAN GET STDS TOO!!
00:04:29 <AnMaster> ais523, is ubuntu going to require ghc as part of the core/system/whatever set of packages?
00:04:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Reading comprehension: 0%
00:05:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't sure if it is was something actually happening, or a "what if" scenario
00:05:29 -!- immibis has joined.
00:05:29 <ehird> Considering GHC is on 6.8.2 and 6.12 is almost out, I very much doubt it will happen any time soon.
00:05:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's very unlikely, Ubuntu hardly ever puts compilers in core
00:05:59 <ais523> it ships with gcc, but only to compile kernel modules
00:06:10 <ais523> it's missing all the headers apart from kernel headers in a default install, for instance
00:06:15 <ehird> ais523: hey, Python is a bytecode compiler!
00:06:40 <ehird> [[More than 500 staff at Keihin Electric Express Railway are expected to be subjected to daily face scans by "smile police" bosses. ]]
00:06:43 <ehird> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/5757194/Workers-have-daily-smile-scans.html
00:06:44 <ais523> ehird: the exception's interps for scripting langs, whether they're implemented in terms of compilers or some other ways
00:07:00 <ehird> Hmm, Brave New World might be a more appropriate reference.
00:09:20 * ais523 tries to figure out why 'Yahoo! Mail' writes its own name in single quotes
00:09:27 <ais523> generally speaking, web pages don't quote their own names...
00:09:33 <immibis> Because it's only pretending to be Yahoo! Mail?
00:09:46 * immibis wonders why GMail is still in beta after this long
00:10:02 <ehird> immibis: the google engineers get a cheap laugh out of it? :-)
00:10:13 <ehird> i remember in 2004, when we did scrabble for an invite, we did!
00:10:16 <immibis> Maybe you're supposed to shout 'Yahoo! Mail!' when you get mail?
00:10:18 <ehird> uphill! BOTH WAYS!
00:10:26 <ais523> at least there's no snow
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00:13:06 <pikhq> ehird: By "major label", you mean "member of the RIAA".
00:13:20 <ehird> No, I mean "major label" :P
00:13:24 <pikhq> There's only like 4, and they have a *lot* of subsidiaries.
00:13:27 <ehird> There are many non-major labels in the RIAA.
00:13:38 <ehird> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RIAA_member_labels
00:13:41 <ehird> there are far more.
00:13:41 <pikhq> Those are subsidiaries of the major 4.
00:13:48 <ehird> not just subsidaries
00:13:51 <ehird> those are marked hierarchically
00:14:11 <ais523> I suspect the label on my T-shirt is not a member of the RIAA
00:14:15 <ais523> but then again, it's hardly major
00:14:20 <pikhq> Oh, hey. That listing is from the RIAA website.
00:14:28 <pikhq> Which is known to be a blatant bunch of lies.
00:14:28 <ehird> ais523: wait, that's a joke right? :P
00:14:58 <pikhq> Oh, that lists the lies.
00:15:11 <ais523> ehird: yes, in a way that expresses my annoyance at people redefining words to mean something else
00:15:22 <ehird> ais523: are you fuckin' serious? :)
00:15:31 <ehird> damn those kids and their modern musicajig!
00:15:42 <ehird> The term "record label" originally referred to the circular label in the center of a vinyl record that prominently displayed the manufacturer's name, along with other information.[1]
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00:15:46 <ehird> so it definitely is directly related.
00:15:59 <ais523> it's just the elision that annoys me
00:16:13 <ais523> sort of, it's like taking a specific sort of something, say "high-level language"
00:16:17 <ais523> and abbreviating it to just "language"
00:16:24 <ais523> that's just really misleading, and ridiculous
00:16:26 <ehird> it's called context
00:16:39 <ais523> I know; I just don't like languages to have to rely on context
00:16:48 <ais523> ok, so it's normally obvious what someone means
00:16:53 <ais523> it still takes more thought to parse, though
00:16:57 <ehird> ais523: are you serious? even lojban relies on context
00:17:07 <ehird> you want to exponentially inflate the length of every utterance?
00:17:09 <ais523> ehird: I'm not saying it shouldn't exist at all, it's useful
00:17:23 <ais523> I'm just saying that context is probably used a bit more than it ought to be atm
00:17:28 <AnMaster> out of 8 cds tried so far, muicbrainz had 4.
00:17:50 <AnMaster> freedb had all, but not as nicely formatted track titles and such.
00:17:58 <AnMaster> often several variants with misspellings
00:18:03 <ehird> AnMaster: your experience is highly abnormal. do not generalize it.
00:18:16 <AnMaster> so I guess, use musicbrainz if possible, fallback on freedb
00:18:32 <ehird> how about use musicbrainz or contribute?!
00:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, translation: it isn't pop or mainstream
00:18:45 <ehird> i listen to plenty of obscure music
00:18:49 <ehird> musicbrainz is incredibly comprehensive
00:18:53 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster: both of you have a point here
00:18:53 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. If I have time to.
00:19:12 <AnMaster> what with the long instructions for formatting the classical music entries
00:19:22 <ehird> i'm terribly curious where this busy AnMaster time goes to. he never seems to do much.
00:19:27 <ehird> sounds like an excuse to me.
00:19:36 <ais523> ehird: he may have a life completely separate from this channel
00:19:42 <AnMaster> ehird, atm? Reading up on theory for driving certificate
00:19:50 <AnMaster> that is where most of my time goes currently.
00:19:52 <ehird> ais523: he must carry around a portable IRC client at all times, then.
00:20:12 <ais523> ehird: no, he has a bouncer
00:20:14 <ehird> (well, I do too; it's called an iphone :P)
00:20:19 <ehird> ais523: i'm talking about talking
00:20:36 <AnMaster> I often live this "separate life" in the same room
00:20:43 <AnMaster> so I'm always within reach of the computer
00:20:43 <ehird> while talking. on irc.
00:20:50 <ehird> which is clearly a time that is possible to use musicbrainz too
00:20:55 <AnMaster> not always of course, but quite often
00:21:58 <AnMaster> ais523, what was this point we both had?
00:22:23 <ehird> nothing, AnMaster. you're 100% right.
00:22:24 <AnMaster> anyway, the more mainstream classical music is indeed on musicbrainz
00:22:33 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird's point is that most people don't have trouble, yours is that it's inappropriate for the way you use things
00:22:45 <AnMaster> ais523, right. That is what I have been trying to say
00:22:51 <AnMaster> yet ehird refuses to accept it.
00:23:02 <ehird> 00:22 ehird: nothing, AnMaster. you're 100% right. 00:22 ehird: utterly
00:23:05 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird's pedantically making correct but irrelvant statements
00:23:12 <ehird> i'm agreeing absolutely
00:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you forget the "~"
00:23:29 <ais523> ehird: I know, but you're doing it in a way that makes you look like you're disagreeing
00:23:37 <ais523> which can only possibly count as AnMaster-baiting
00:23:56 <ehird> okay, so if i disagree with you you argue
00:23:58 <ehird> if I agree with you
00:24:04 <ehird> you argue about whether I agree with you
00:25:12 <AnMaster> anyway, my goal is reached. All the music is tagged, When all 30 cds were done, only 14 needed to be done with freedb due to musicbrainz lacking it.
00:25:56 <AnMaster> I haven't ripped the other ~60 classical music cds yet...
00:26:09 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/8ypih/this_is_awesome_a_personal_ad_in_graph_form/c0auucv Wow. It's undownmoddable.
00:26:24 <ehird> ais523: You can't upvote it or downvote it.
00:26:30 <ehird> There are no buttons.
00:27:36 <AnMaster> ehird, there are buttons there?
00:27:44 <ehird> No up or down vote arrows.
00:28:28 <ehird> it usually doesn't
00:29:18 <AnMaster> ehird, other issue with both freedb and musicbrainz
00:29:29 <AnMaster> this cd was released with the same disc but two different covers
00:30:03 <AnMaster> one in Swedish (NAXOS 8.554777S) and one in English (NAXOS 8.554777)
00:30:13 <AnMaster> so I want the track titles correct for that ;P
00:30:19 <AnMaster> of course, there is no way to solve it.
00:30:23 <ehird> blame the artist for multi-naming shit
00:30:29 <ehird> kraftwerk are worse
00:30:33 <ehird> they made ENTIRE NEW VOCALS for the songs
00:30:37 <ehird> in both german and english
00:30:41 <ehird> for the two markets
00:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, but with fingerprinting you can tell them apart
00:30:49 <ehird> literally, translate the lyrics
00:31:00 <ehird> AnMaster: i know, but it means there's two albums for every name!
00:31:08 <AnMaster> while here the actual cd doesn't differ at all
00:31:26 <AnMaster> just it says "Sinfonia i ciss-moll" instead of "Symphony in C-sharp minor"
00:31:28 <ehird> I wonder if they translated Autobahn.
00:31:56 <ehird> "We drive drive drive on the motorway" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
00:32:03 <AnMaster> "Overture in D minor" vs. "Uvertyr i d-moll"
00:32:30 <AnMaster> for music: moll = minor, dur = major
00:32:47 <ehird> hmm it seems to be "We're driving driving driving on the motorway"
00:32:50 <AnMaster> oh and for "sharp" in music we add "iss" or "ess".
00:33:05 <ehird> well okay it's actually "Wir fahr'n fahr'n fahr'n fahr'n auf der Autobahn" but I'm translatin' with the help of the interwebs.
00:37:40 <AnMaster> "Filling in your e-mail address is completely optional. However if you don't fill it in, the editing features [1] of the MusicBrainz service will not be available to you."
00:37:51 <ehird> Well, fill it in then.
00:37:57 <ehird> I assume it's to do with the moderation service.
00:38:13 <ehird> I would advise you to quit complaining, it's not like BugZilla is any better.
00:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, still tl;dr for that classcial music formatting faq
00:39:30 <ehird> You have the attention span of a /b/tard.
00:39:53 <ehird> AnMaster: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Classical_Style_Guide is this page really too long for you?
00:39:56 <pikhq> /b/tards have more attention.
00:39:57 <ehird> it's like 3 fucking screens
00:40:04 <ehird> 3.5, I just measured
00:40:15 <ehird> The current official one
00:40:15 <ehird> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/ClassicalStyleGuide
00:40:17 <ehird> is the same length
00:40:25 <ehird> It's really simple.
00:40:54 <ehird> Buy a new monitor and an attention span battery.
00:41:08 <ehird> Don't you read Terry Pratchett?
00:41:20 <ehird> His books are quite long. Indeed, hundreds of screens.
00:41:27 <ehird> Yet you cannot manage 5.
00:41:36 <ehird> AnMaster: durr it is impossible to transfer information from books hurr.
00:41:43 <AnMaster> ehird, due to lack of interest.
00:42:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what are these "puids"?
00:43:01 <ehird> And a second in Google gives: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PUID
00:46:03 <ais523> ehird: wow, you type fast if you can google that fast
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01:01:39 <ehird> http://imagechan.com/images/4a1f16e12a8f69e53ef19798b535eeb1.png
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01:04:48 <AnMaster> ehird, editing on musicbrainz, have you done it yourself?
01:05:11 <AnMaster> ehird, if not, are you aware of that it is like picard... completely backwards UI
01:07:04 <AnMaster> I can't figure out how to do it
01:08:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I think ehird's gone to bed
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01:19:58 <AnMaster> ehird, for two of those cds the "puid" things were missing from the db, so it couldn't auto identify them
01:20:13 <AnMaster> ehird, the other are genuinely missing however
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02:25:55 <immibis> does anyone know of a good wad editor for windows?
03:25:58 <oklodok> god, stop having talked already
03:30:11 <oklodok> ehird: Gab flubb dirpmoglaaaaaaa tubadinoshçtok. <<< glio eglo flog balg nlo mlog
03:31:43 <zid> help help they're speaking in tongues
03:36:49 <ais523> AnMaster: isn't it 4am where you are?
03:37:00 <oklodok> AnMaster: ehird, atm? Reading up on theory for driving certificate <<< i don't believe a human can learn to drive a car as stably as people do.
03:37:14 <oklodok> that's one of the things that make me feel soliptistic
03:37:44 <AnMaster> I finally tagged the music perfectly
03:41:24 <oklodok> i just woke up, went to sleep at 21:00
03:41:31 <oklodok> or maybe a few seconds later
03:42:06 <oklodok> something like 23-5 would be nice
03:42:06 <MizardX> Go and sleep another 5 hours :P
03:42:26 <oklodok> i slept 15 hours just the other night
03:42:44 <oklodok> also there was a 1 hour sleep without artificial interruption
03:42:54 <oklodok> my brain has issues i think
03:46:43 * pikhq starts Project Eulering, in Haskell
03:46:54 <pikhq> main = print $ find (and . (\x -> [x `mod` y == 0 | y <- [1..20]])) [1..]
03:47:02 <pikhq> That's a... Pretty slow piece of code there.
03:47:59 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
03:48:02 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
03:48:17 <immibis> !haskell main = print $ find (and . (\x -> [x `mod` y == 0 | y <- [1..20]])) [1..]
03:48:27 <oklodok> tell me when you surpass me
03:48:39 <oklodok> maybe i'll get interested again
03:48:48 <pikhq> That'll be a while.
03:48:58 <pikhq> Oh, right. import Data.List
03:49:18 <oklodok> i doubt i've played more than a week or two
03:49:29 <oklodok> well i guess if you don't know haskell
03:49:34 <pikhq> ./project5 295.32s user 3.41s system 94% cpu 5:17.56 total
03:49:40 <oklodok> i don't know whether you do
03:49:50 <pikhq> I'm using it as an excuse to code more Haskell.
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03:50:06 <pikhq> Well, returns the right answer (embedded in a Maybe).
03:50:41 <oklodok> a got into it because of this other dude, but i think he's in finnish top10 nowadays, i just didn't know enough math back then
03:52:05 <pikhq> Of course, I could have just done some smarter math. XD
03:52:05 <oklodok> also because python is 100 times slower than most languages, some problems are substantially harder for it
03:53:14 <oklodok> that's a pen and paper problem
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03:54:36 <pikhq> Yes, but it was a Haskell one-liner.
03:55:18 <oklodok> sure, i was just agreeing with you about coulding to have done smarter math.
03:56:17 <oklodok> i mean i also agree there's no need to do smarter math, because it's a one-liner anyway
03:56:43 <pikhq> First few have been trivial.
03:57:19 <pikhq> Project 4 was a whole 9 lines. ... Because I needed to define a function to test if something was a palindrome or not.
03:58:59 <oklodok> i think i made some sort of merging generators thing for 4
03:59:45 <oklodok> or maybe i just wrote some sorta one-liner because it's #4, and i'm recalling some other prob
04:01:55 <pikhq> main = print $ last $ sort . nub $ filter (palindromeP . show) $ [x*y | x <- [100..999], y <- [100..999]]
04:02:17 <pikhq> palindromeP is an exercise for the reader, and I'm thinking last $ sort . nub $ filter is dumb.
04:02:34 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
04:02:41 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
04:03:07 <Warrigal> !swedish The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
04:03:08 <EgoBot> Zee qooeeck broon fux joomps oofer zee lezy dug. Bork Bork Bork!
04:03:29 <Warrigal> !yodawn Zee qooeeck broon fux joomps oofer zee lezy dug. Bork Bork Bork!
04:03:38 <Warrigal> !yodawg Zee qooeeck broon fux joomps oofer zee lezy dug. Bork Bork Bork!
04:06:48 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
04:07:21 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=test
04:07:30 <immibis> well that was useful...not...
04:30:45 <immibis> !sffffffffedeesh Hello people, I am swedish.
04:30:45 <EgoBot> Hellu peuple-a, I em svedeesh. Bork Bork Bork!
04:31:06 <immibis> !swedish Hellu peuple-a, I em svedeesh. Bork Bork Bork!
04:31:06 <EgoBot> Helloo peoople-a-a, I im sfedeesh. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
04:31:16 <immibis> !sweedish Helloo peoople-a-a, I im sfedeesh. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
04:31:21 <immibis> !swedish Helloo peoople-a-a, I im sfedeesh. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
04:31:22 <EgoBot> Helluu peuuple-a-a-a, I im sffedeesh. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
04:31:31 <immibis> !swedish Helluu peuuple-a-a-a, I im sffedeesh. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
04:31:31 <EgoBot> Helloooo peoooople-a-a-a-a, I im sffffedeesh. Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork! Bork Bork Bork!
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05:46:41 <oklodok> i think i should glio a pizza
05:56:12 <Gracenotes> is it just me or do people throw around the term 'deconstruction' way too much
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06:02:55 <augur> Gracenotes: i dont see people use it hardly at all
06:03:14 <augur> are you reading much postmodernist/poststructuralist word and/or work influenced by derrida?
06:04:25 <Gracenotes> more like in discussions where people are considering whether or not a work deconstructed a genre, people tend to conclude the affirmative a bit too much
06:08:52 <Gracenotes> I don't see much use in the term personally
06:09:28 <augur> well, it does have a use, but people probably dont know what it means, so.
06:11:46 <immibis> ^run wget --bind-address=127.0.0.1 http://google.com/
06:13:46 <ais523> err, is ^run even a fungot command?
06:13:46 <fungot> ais523: suppose i have ( equal? ( convert3 4 5 6)
06:14:02 <ais523> in that case, you probably want a different prefix
06:14:08 <immibis> `run wget --bind-address=127.0.0.1 http://googlw.com/
06:14:13 <immibis> `run wget --bind-address=127.0.0.1 http://google.com/ 2>&1
06:14:14 <HackEgo> --2009-07-07 05:14:13-- http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently \ Location: http://www.google.com/ [following] \ --2009-07-07 05:14:14-- http://www.google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting
06:14:29 <immibis> `run wget --bind-address=123.45.67.89 http://google.com/ 2>&1
06:14:30 <HackEgo> --2009-07-07 05:14:29-- http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... failed: Cannot assign requested address. \ Retrying. \ \ --2009-07-07 05:14:29-- (try: 2) http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... failed: Cannot assign requested address. \ Retrying. \ \ --2009-07-07 05:14:29-- (try: 3) http://google.com/
06:18:28 * immibis slaps myndzi immibis with an immibissuffix
06:18:29 * myndzi slapmyndziyndzmyndzimmibimyndzimmibissuffix
06:18:29 * immibis slapimmibisyndzimmibismmibimyndzmyndzisuffix
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07:43:27 <oklodok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/sevenfold.mid
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07:48:10 <oklodok> i like it, but it kinda hurts my ears
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09:55:29 <calamari> is it possible to have a multi line TextView in a TableRow?
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13:20:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I had a series of 30 classical music cds based on theme, freedb has about 2/3 of them, musicbrainz has none. Oh and I'm not going to rip these, and it seems picard can't work directly from the cd. So I guess I can't add them.
13:20:29 <AnMaster> oh and a few other cds I'm not going to rip that it is lacking.
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15:56:55 <ehirdiphone> "Richard Stallman wrote emacs, gcc, gdb, glibc and the GPL. That is all." Wow, he's right. I guess we can't all be perfect. :-P
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16:41:34 <pikhq> Project Euler is fun. Especially when you use the single most naive algorithms possible.
16:41:51 <pikhq> For prime factorization.
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18:34:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is the most naive one? I can think of at least two naive ones. Plus a number of less naive ones. Oh and some ones that passed "naive" and went to "intentionally stupid and silly"
18:35:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: Take the list of all primes less than half of n, check and see if those are factors.
18:36:24 <AnMaster> the bloody stupid one would be "try every possible combination of above mentioned primes", trying first using only using two primes, then if no match found, try again with three and so on
18:36:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you like that one? :)
18:38:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, like: foreach prime X < N/2 { foreach prime Y < N/2 { if (Y*X == N) return X,Y; } }
18:39:12 <AnMaster> could be done by making it a list of n-tuples
18:39:26 <AnMaster> taking two lists, generating every possible combination
18:39:26 <oklodok> forall i in n: prime(i); product l = n;
18:39:34 <oklodok> forall i in l: prime(i); product l = n;
18:40:53 <AnMaster> combine([2,7], [2,7]) -> [{2,2},{2,7},{7,2},{7,7}]
18:41:18 <AnMaster> except the input lists would already have such tuples
18:41:57 <AnMaster> combine([2,7], [{2,2},{2,7},{7,2},{7,7}]) -> [{2,2,2},{2,2,7},{2,7,2},{2,7,7},{7,2,2},{7,2,7},{7,7,2},{7,7,7}]
18:42:31 <AnMaster> then multiply all the elements in each tuple and check if they match N
18:42:49 <oklodok> depends on what combine is
18:43:01 <AnMaster> oklodok, the function described above
18:43:16 <oklodok> and what i mean is, [{2, {2, 2}}, ...
18:43:25 <oklodok> usually works that way in math tho
18:43:45 <AnMaster> oklodok, multiplication is commutative so it doesn't matter in this case.
18:43:47 <oklodok> also j has a few special cased things that lift tuples like that
18:44:10 <AnMaster> and I was using erlang syntax for lists and tuples
18:45:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, what language does one write the solutions in?
18:46:04 <AnMaster> or do you just provide the answer?
18:46:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, no other ones possible?
18:46:29 <pikhq> ... No, I mean I'm writing them in Haskell.
18:46:37 <pikhq> You just provide the answer.
18:46:59 <Deewiant> http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/07/0024224/Dont-Copy-That-Floppy-Gets-a-Sequel
18:49:05 <fizzie> There was a recent anti-piracy parody thing in that "The IT Crowd" TV series; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82Lq2rVB_4
18:50:09 <oklodok> AnMaster: don't know why i said blah, my point was just combine must be somewhat smart to know when to lift tuples like that, but assuming you were just doing math in erlang notation, that's not important.
18:50:46 <oklodok> also i wanted to note j does that kinda lifting, although i don't remember what operators.
18:50:53 <Deewiant> "Recent" as in 2-3 years old, yes
18:51:08 <AnMaster> oklodok, note that combine is an invented function here
18:51:22 <oklodok> AnMaster: invented name for cartesian product yes
18:51:37 <AnMaster> oklodok, invented function for it yes for this purpose.
18:52:08 <AnMaster> there are better ways to do that in erlang iirc. Using list comprehensions comes to mind.
18:52:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: Recent in the sense that they've recently started showing that thing in Finnish TV. Or so I hear, anyway; we don't have one.
18:52:31 <oklodok> why would they start showing it
18:52:32 <fizzie> "In Finland, the show is broadcast by Yle TV2 since April 2009."
18:52:54 <Deewiant> And found it partially reasonably amusing
18:53:23 <oklodok> i'm just kinda tired of watching nerd humor without nerd content
18:53:47 <fizzie> Would you watch a "The #esoteric Crowd" TV series?
18:54:19 <oklodok> well i watch the it crowd.
18:54:41 <oklodok> but yes esocrowd would probably be awesome
18:54:44 <AnMaster> I mean, when it comes to technical details
18:55:02 <oklodok> where the nerd tells the chick about his code
18:55:18 <oklodok> there's a buzz so you don't hear what he says.
18:55:19 <fizzie> I've seen one (1) episode, and it didn't really go into technical details at all. It's more about the people, I guess.
18:55:28 <AnMaster> what I mean is, is it technobable or does the stuff make sense?
18:56:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and this is on TV? You are joking right?
18:56:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you see any scrolling text on the face of a person in front of a computer?
18:57:10 <Deewiant> I doubt it, they don't spend much time sitting in front of their computers.
18:57:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then what on earth is the point?
18:57:30 <fizzie> Yes, it doesn't need technobabble when there's no techno to babble about.
18:58:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are the errors described actually plausible?
18:58:08 <Deewiant> One of them always answers the phone with "IT; have you tried turning it off and then on again"
18:58:37 <fizzie> Didn't they have an answering machine thing for the phone that suggested rebooting and the normal stuff?
18:58:47 <oklodok> all other characters are, well, very british.
18:59:07 <Deewiant> I found the manager quite British as well.
18:59:47 <oklodok> by british character i mean the kind you find in british sitcoms, bad :)
18:59:55 <oklodok> i'm not sure why i think that.
19:00:01 <Deewiant> That's what I meant too, apart from the bad
19:00:07 <oklodok> maybe i've watched the wrong wshows
19:00:20 <oklodok> well he has the scrubs like insane quality.
19:00:56 <AnMaster> if there is one thing I hate it is technobable when you know the stuff they are talking about.
19:00:58 <AnMaster> ...Once I learnt enough physics I stopped watching Star Trek...
19:00:59 <oklodok> i like character humor, and complex humor
19:01:18 <oklodok> i haven't seen much of the latter during my lifetime
19:01:34 <fizzie> Complex number humor; there's a definite lack of that.
19:01:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm sure it has been done...
19:01:51 <oklodok> there's not much complex number humor that isn't just math related puns
19:02:06 <oklodok> math related puns are just puns, and puns are never funny
19:02:17 <fizzie> Z and X walked to a bar; but they're not orderable!
19:02:19 <AnMaster> oklodok, there isn't much math humour that isn't puns...
19:02:37 <oklodok> i was told that earlier on #math
19:02:52 <AnMaster> oklodok, oh? I was just speaking out of experience...
19:03:23 <oklodok> also i heard a math joke that wasn't a pun just after someone told me that
19:03:32 <AnMaster> oklodok, and what was that joke?
19:03:51 <fizzie> SGI's IRIX accelerated-math library thing (for FFTs and such) has a data type "complex" for pairs of single-precision floats, but the name for the double-precision variant is the hilarious "zomplex".
19:04:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, err, why is that hilarious?
19:04:16 <oklodok> it was about a branch of math that has very inexact bounds, something about a lecturer saying he didn't remember exactly, but something happened less than 10^10^10^10 years ago.
19:04:29 <fizzie> I don't know why, it just is.
19:04:37 <AnMaster> not that the name makes any sense
19:04:39 <fizzie> It's like some sort of zombie-complex.
19:05:02 <AnMaster> is there any explanation of the name?
19:05:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, zombies aren't really very funny
19:05:14 <oklodok> AnMaster: did you get the joke?
19:05:29 <AnMaster> not the 100rd (th?) time at least
19:05:34 <Deewiant> Watch Shaun of the Dead sometime
19:05:57 <oklodok> i didn't actually tell the joke, my interest in jokes is mostly theoretical
19:06:07 <oklodok> i can look it up if you can't laugh at it from that
19:06:14 <AnMaster> oklodok, well... Assuming the current estimate of the age of the universe...
19:06:40 <oklodok> clearly he used something less exact than that.
19:07:02 <oklodok> i don't see how that matters, the gist of the joke is it doesn't matter in whatever branch the lecturer does either
19:07:20 <ehird> 00:04 AnMaster: ehird, editing on musicbrainz, have you done it yourself?
19:07:37 <oklodok> the branch was named after a name of some sort, and i've never heard of it, so i'd need to read from the logs
19:07:40 <ehird> 12:20 AnMaster: ehird, I had a series of 30 classical music cds based on theme, freedb has about 2/3 of them, musicbrainz has none. Oh and I'm not going to rip these, and it seems picard can't work directly from the cd. So I guess I can't add them.
19:07:42 <ehird> 12:20 AnMaster: oh and a few other cds I'm not going to rip that it is lacking.
19:07:44 <ehird> you keep talking. are you fallaciously assuming I give a shit?
19:07:47 <AnMaster> ehird, adding cds with different composers for different tracks = pain
19:08:04 <AnMaster> ehird, compilations with themes
19:08:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's twice the fun when you need to add almost every composer, as I have had to do in the past.
19:08:25 <ehird> 17:49 fizzie: There was a recent anti-piracy parody thing in that "The IT Crowd" TV series; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82Lq2rVB_4
19:08:31 <ehird> is that the "you wouldn't steal a policeman's helmet"?
19:08:34 <ehird> can't view in this country
19:08:36 <ehird> anyway that's ancient.
19:08:36 <Deewiant> As well as the label that published the CD.
19:08:45 <AnMaster> ehird, read the rest of the log
19:08:54 <ehird> 17:52 fizzie: Deewiant: Recent in the sense that they've recently started showing that thing in Finnish TV. Or so I hear, anyway; we don't have one.
19:09:01 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694
19:09:10 <fizzie> I think the name is because LAPACK's six-letter (for Fortran compatibility) function names start with a single-character data-type prefix; S = float, D = double, C = single-precision complex, Z = double-precision complex.
19:09:28 <fizzie> Of course that's a bit of a non-answer, because it doesn't explain why lapack chose Z there.
19:09:32 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's twice the fun when you need to add almost every composer, as I have had to do in the past. <-- yes I had a few of that. I just gave up. Too much work. And some said "Unknown, but probably Haydn or Mozart"
19:09:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is where I gave up
19:10:01 <ehird> 17:55 AnMaster: what I mean is, is it technobable or does the stuff make sense?
19:10:01 <ehird> Moss: [picks up phone] Hello, IT? Yah-hah? Have you tried forcing an expected reboot? You see the driver hooks the function by patching the system call table, so it's not safe to unload it unless another thread's about to jump in there and do its stuff, and you don't want to end up in the middle of invalid memory.
19:10:09 <ehird> correct apart from being the wrong way around./
19:10:40 <AnMaster> ehird, that kind of could make sense assuming windows NT's design
19:10:47 <Deewiant> :-) I didn't remember that one
19:10:49 * AnMaster tries to remember how system calls worked
19:10:59 <AnMaster> yes I think it is possibly accurate
19:11:12 <ehird> AnMaster: it's fairly sane OS design.
19:11:28 <AnMaster> I remember there was/is a table you could patch to install rootkits. Mentioned on sysinternals iirc...
19:11:29 <ehird> (the correction is s/unless/if/)
19:11:44 <AnMaster> not sure if it was an internal table, or the system call one.
19:11:57 <oklodok> was just about to complain about unless
19:12:04 <ehird> 19:10 ehird: correct apart from being the wrong way around./
19:12:39 <ehird> unloading it is only safe if you're about to jump to it?
19:12:48 <ehird> THAT'S what will end you in the middle of garbage memory...
19:12:58 <AnMaster> I meant, could be make to work even if something is jumping to it
19:13:05 <pikhq> ata1: hard resetting link
19:13:18 <pikhq> That is cause for concern, I think.
19:13:29 <ehird> oh man, that sequel is official
19:13:45 <ehird> "A smug teen who's downloading files from 'Pirates Palace' and 'Tune Weasel' finds his world turned upside down when automatic weapons-toting government agents break down the door and take his Mom away in handcuffs. The teen finds himself in a prison jumpsuit forced to tattoo shirtless adult inmates who eventually turn on him, physically attack him, and make him run for his life back to his jail cell."
19:13:46 <AnMaster> just use a CAS instruction (CMPXCHG assuming x86), to swap it with the original function used
19:14:01 <ehird> it sounds more like a subversive ad for anarchism than against piracy
19:14:06 <AnMaster> then it doesn't matter if something is about to jump to it
19:14:31 <ehird> y'know what this has acheived?
19:14:38 <ehird> i wanna go pirate a bunch of software i don't want to use
19:14:47 <ehird> and delete it immediately
19:15:13 <pikhq> I'm running a smartctl test.
19:15:28 <ehird> i'm not giving them the money they rightfully should own as I would if I bought it then stomped on the disc
19:15:59 <ehird> wait, does it have the same mc? :D
19:16:22 <Deewiant> In a flashback, at least; watching it.
19:16:31 <AnMaster> oklodok, there are some non-puns in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_joke below the pun section
19:16:38 <AnMaster> see "Stereotypes of mathematicians"
19:16:49 <Deewiant> LOL at the prisoners' tattoos.
19:16:58 <oklodok> i'm also not that interested in mathematician jokes
19:17:11 <ehird> hahahahahah this must be a parody
19:17:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: See /. link above, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHaAFqoVLtI for the lazy.
19:17:32 <oklodok> stereotype jokes are almost as easy as puns
19:17:54 <ehird> Deewiant: omg it's the same mc
19:18:16 <ehird> sounds like what what in the butt
19:18:19 <ehird> don't copy that, in the butt
19:18:31 <Deewiant> LOL at the crappy-looking and -sounding Klingons
19:19:04 <ehird> to copy data is a great dishonour? fucking L[123] caches and RAM!
19:19:14 <ehird> they should be illegal! (well, they were somewhere iirc :))
19:20:08 <ehird> well, that was delightfully bullshit
19:20:18 <ehird> lol, they're using Joomla on their website
19:20:21 <ehird> last I checked, it was open source
19:20:35 <ehird> i suspect them of copying it.
19:21:03 <ehird> *Joomla!; pedanticity must be applied even in the face of obnoxious exclamation marks
19:21:34 <AnMaster> I can't watch it, it is just too bad.
19:21:44 <ehird> "I bet if I showed this new video to the average 12 year old, they'd think it was some kind of internet sketch comedy thing."
19:21:51 <ehird> it actually is exactly like that
19:22:01 <ehird> if it wasn't on the SIIA website, I'd be laughin'
19:22:07 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's real
19:22:21 <pikhq> ehird: Joomla! is GPL. ;)
19:22:29 <ehird> pikhq: "Copying data is a great dishonor."
19:22:50 <ehird> You know it's true because fake Klingons (…is there another kind?) said it.
19:23:56 <ehird> Deewiant: probably not the same actor; since the actor is like CEO of some enterprisey bullshit computer company
19:25:41 <oklodok> what's don't copy that floppy exactly?
19:25:56 <AnMaster> about that "patching system call table" quote... were there more like that in that series?
19:25:57 <ehird> oklodok: you have to watch it. to experience it.
19:25:59 <Deewiant> Something also available on youtube
19:26:05 <ehird> AnMaster: dunno, I only watched a few episodes.
19:26:08 <Deewiant> An early 90s anti-piracy video
19:26:11 <ehird> just torrent the damn thing and see :P
19:26:17 <oklodok> Deewiant: yes, but it takes about an hours to download something with my conn
19:26:46 <ehird> (it's okay, we brits paid for it with our yearly payment to the WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE SO PAY UP YOUR DAMN TV LICENSE commission)
19:26:58 <Deewiant> 10 minutes of fairly heavily compressed video shouldn't take /that/ long
19:27:05 <Deewiant> Unless they're bigger than I think
19:27:19 <ehird> Deewiant: they are, but it can play before downloading it all, so
19:27:20 <oklodok> takes 10 minutes to download a midi
19:27:33 <oklodok> some normal webpages time out
19:27:34 <ehird> (apparently the tv licensing people just track who has a TV, then harass anyone who doesn't have one)
19:27:50 <Deewiant> Webpages go up to megabytes these days, that doesn't surprise me
19:27:51 <oklodok> no i just have µtorrent on, and for some reason it kills http
19:27:53 <ehird> (we saw in your window that you have a tv and are watching it and are not paying us!* *note: we didn't actually look)
19:28:02 <ehird> oklodok: because your connection is saturated
19:28:05 <ehird> rate-limit utorrent.
19:28:12 <ehird> Deewiant: i've never seen a 1mb webpage
19:28:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Mu; I don't use them.
19:28:50 <ehird> Anyway, that wouldn't timeout the whole page.
19:28:52 <ehird> Just certain elements.
19:29:00 <Deewiant> If it's in a table it'll timeout the whole thing.
19:29:04 <ehird> oklodok: link to that sevenfold glio song thing? saw it in the logs ages ago.
19:29:12 <ehird> Deewiant: not eg an <img>
19:29:20 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> If it's in a table it'll timeout the whole thing. <-- huh?
19:29:29 <oklodok> ehird: sure, that's kind of a nobrainer, i just don't want to limit it, i prefer not using the net.
19:29:31 <Deewiant> ehird: No? Don't you need to know the size before you can flow it?
19:29:43 <ehird> Deewiant: modern browsers don't have that.
19:29:49 <ehird> Deewiant: netscape 4, I think, did that.
19:30:01 <oklodok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/sevenfold.mid
19:30:02 <ehird> also, <img width=butt height=butt> :P
19:30:13 <Deewiant> I recall people complaining about as recently as in Phoenix
19:30:21 <ehird> oklodok: beautiful
19:30:22 <Deewiant> Granted, that's still a while ago
19:30:41 <ehird> "Their marketing department didn't even notice that they made an unauthorized reproduction and depiction of a well known anime character in their video..." —/.
19:30:51 <Deewiant> But anyway, it was quite obviously noticeable that tables didn't render the way divs did
19:31:01 <ehird> oklodok: i like the guitar/drums part
19:31:07 <oklodok> ehird: it's probably my only "published" piece that has completely random parts.
19:31:07 <ehird> very nice sandwiched with the noise.
19:31:31 <ehird> oklodok: i wonder if it's possible to play this irl
19:31:35 <ehird> i'm thinking the drums might be a bit hard.
19:31:44 <oklodok> usually the stuff people hear as noise in my songs is 100% thought through
19:32:45 <ehird> anicecreamymelody goes well after sevenfold.
19:33:09 <oklodok> ehird: if you want to hear, i do have some actual music too.
19:33:17 <ehird> oklodok: that's just hitting shit a lot though
19:33:27 <ehird> also you have to play the rhythmical part straight afterwards
19:33:34 <ehird> oklodok: you mean the metal stuff?
19:33:41 <ehird> i listened to that ages ago, didn't really like it.
19:33:57 <oklodok> you listened to the band stuff?
19:34:05 <ehird> months and months ago.
19:34:15 <ehird> yes, they sounded mostly identical ;P
19:34:43 <ehird> well i'm not really a metal guy you know?
19:34:47 <ehird> all sorta sounds the same.
19:34:55 <ehird> etudes, i haven't seen etudes before
19:35:25 <ehird> well i dunno what these .gt[45]s are i guess i could download the midi archive
19:35:35 <oklodok> anyway most of my songs are just on .mid
19:35:41 <oklodok> but, they are mostly metal
19:35:48 <ehird> well metal .mid is okay
19:35:48 <oklodok> i only have like 10 or so non-metal songs
19:35:57 <ehird> the music is fine, i just don't like how it sounds when performed
19:36:01 <AnMaster> oklodok, ehird: for drums, couldn't you use several people, playing on a round-robin schedule?
19:36:08 <ehird> AnMaster: have you listened to it?
19:36:20 <AnMaster> ehird, not yet, trying to find my headphones...
19:36:22 <ehird> it could work if you have instant, infinite communication and comprehension between everyone.
19:36:28 <ehird> AnMaster: you won't like it :D
19:36:41 <ehird> oklodok: well linky to mids?
19:37:00 <oklodok> i can privately up some stuff for you, but i don't like distributing them.
19:37:10 <ehird> i'll only give them to 5000 people max
19:37:22 <ehird> if it's a good day
19:37:40 <oklodok> oh 50,000? then we have a problem.
19:39:08 <Deewiant> Which reminds me, can anybody explain why 8000 got translated to 9000
19:39:14 <AnMaster> oklodok, I would like a copy too.
19:39:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? I thought 9000 was some meme
19:39:40 <AnMaster> 8000 I never heard of as a meme
19:39:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it was 8000 in the original japanese
19:39:53 <ehird> they translated it to 9000.
19:40:01 <AnMaster> I don't even know where the meme is from
19:40:10 <ehird> oklodok: i inferred from Deewiant
19:40:18 <ehird> it's clearly because americans are 1,000 better, anyway
19:40:20 <Deewiant> It's from an episode of Dragonball Z where Vegeta says it angrily.
19:40:36 <AnMaster> and this "dragonball z", is it manga or anime?
19:40:46 <Deewiant> Manga doesn't come in episodes.
19:40:48 <ehird> most animes are also mangae..
19:40:51 <fizzie> And it's a "power level" which should be over 9000.
19:41:00 <ehird> fizzie: shouldn't be.
19:41:03 <Deewiant> Dragonball Z is based on the Dragonball manga, though, where it was also 8000.
19:41:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok. I'm not an expert on such stuff.
19:41:09 <ehird> the main line is expressing shock at said fact.
19:41:18 <Deewiant> And in the new Dragonball Kai which is sort of a remake of Dragonball Z it was also 8000.
19:41:19 <ehird> admittedly by Bad Guy(TM)
19:41:24 <ehird> i don't actually know anything about dragonball
19:41:31 <ehird> i'm just good at collecting info randomly and inferring.
19:41:49 <fizzie> Erzyklopedia dramatica has the dialogue, so:
19:41:50 <fizzie> Nappa: "VEGETA! What does the scouter say about his power level?"
19:41:50 <fizzie> Vegeta: "IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND!" *crushes scouter*
19:41:50 <fizzie> Nappa: WHAT, NINE THOUSAND!?
19:42:03 <ehird> it has a total transcript
19:42:17 <AnMaster> quantum nano technology manager?
19:42:28 <ehird> http://qntm.org/?9000
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19:44:53 <Deewiant> The original is quite clearly "hassen ijou da".
19:45:22 <ehird> Hussein is your dad.
19:45:37 <Deewiant> DBKai's version of it is evidently up at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9oVNvRSlVk for the interested.
19:45:49 <Deewiant> The relevant phrase being at 0:34 or thereabouts.
19:45:53 <pikhq> My motherboard is starting to give up the ghost. YAY.
19:46:06 <ehird> Deewiant: You're obsessed with either over 9000 or Dragonball.
19:46:10 <fizzie> Apparently nine thousand isn't even all that much nowadays. (Source: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerLevels )
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19:46:25 <ehird> Deewiant: also, how is that a remake? it looks exactly the same.
19:46:40 <ehird> oh. says hd remastered.
19:46:57 <Deewiant> And they removed some scenes to make it shorter and more in line with the manga.
19:48:26 <Deewiant> I'm mostly obsessed with accuracy. Your 1000s just reminded me. But I do know quite a bit more about Dragonball than most.
19:48:54 <ehird> I know a bit more about child pornography than most.
19:48:58 <ehird> I know a bit more about rape techniques than most.
19:49:05 <ehird> I know a bit more about assassinating the president than most.
19:49:24 <Deewiant> I don't mind admitting I have esoteric knowledge. Especially on #esoteric.
19:49:32 <ehird> …strangely, while I have no qualms about putting those in that template, I can't bring myself to put in things like "Dragonball"
19:49:37 <ehird> (I tried. My hands seize up.)
19:50:31 <ehird> I wish ais523 logread.
19:50:36 <ehird> "One thing I found puzzling was that the Brits consistently apologized for and/or denigrated Birmingham."
19:50:41 <ehird> —Bruce Eckel, http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=261930
19:52:03 <AnMaster> ehird, what other things 'like "Dragonball"'
19:52:25 <ehird> "Scat porn" works.
19:52:38 <Deewiant> What's so bad about Dragonball vis-à-vis child porn anyway
19:52:46 <ehird> Rutanaloobeedoobeedoo
19:52:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was wondering that too
19:52:51 <oklodok> i've fairly sure i know more than most about all of those.
19:52:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Aren't they synonyms anyway?-)
19:53:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what about inserting C++ there?
19:53:04 <ehird> it was re 19:48 fizzie: And you admit that?
19:53:11 <Deewiant> Not quite, no. In fact, not at all. :-P
19:53:21 <ehird> AnMaster: as much as it pains me to admit it, it's possible I'm going to willingly use C++ for something
19:54:07 <AnMaster> also what about "Plain English"? I think it would be true too. Sadly.
19:54:15 <ehird> Deewiant: game engine type stuff; lots of OOP stuff so not e.g. C, but needs a lot of assured speed and control over purity, so not e.g. Haskell
19:54:35 <ehird> Deewiant: i'd rather vomit
19:54:51 <ehird> gc would be quite nice but it's not really vital so
19:55:00 <AnMaster> ehird, are you going to work on a game engine? You know there are many good open source 3D engines already that can handle both directx and opengl?
19:55:02 <ehird> i am going to add a custom scripting language to it so i might just add refcounting to my object infrastructure
19:55:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Wasn't there some sort of censorship thing about DBZ Finnish translation release? Or was it some other manga thing?
19:55:13 <ehird> AnMaster: what fun's that?
19:55:18 <ehird> i want something i can tweak
19:55:22 <pikhq> ehird: *cough* Haskell speed ~= C speed.
19:55:23 <AnMaster> crystalspace or something like that
19:55:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: Possibly... rings a bell but I can't remember any details
19:55:38 <ehird> pikhq: under ideal circumstances; but I also need a ton of libraries for shit Haskell doesn't really have a lot of
19:55:46 <ehird> i'd be in IO 90% of the time anyway
19:55:52 <AnMaster> ehird, could you insert "D" there instead of "C++"? ;P
19:55:55 <pikhq> ... Doesn't Haskell have glut bindings?
19:55:58 <ehird> since a whole lot of game logic will be in the scripting language anyway
19:56:04 <pikhq> I know I saw one in Hackage.
19:56:12 <ehird> 19:55 AnMaster: ehird, could you insert "D" there instead of "C++"? ;P
19:56:14 <ehird> 19:54 Deewiant: *cough*D*cough*
19:56:16 <ehird> 19:54 Deewiant: But yeah, toolchain etc.
19:56:18 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: Deewiant: i'd rather vomit
19:56:20 <ehird> I hate D as a language, also.
19:56:26 <ehird> → as in transition
19:56:28 <AnMaster> erlang has opengl bindings btw. Just in case anyone wants it...
19:56:42 <pikhq> ehird: So, I am actually getting that new system.
19:56:42 <AnMaster> there is even a 3D editor using them
19:56:45 <ehird> Deewiant: it's a gigantic hodgepodge
19:56:50 <Deewiant> Despite being a hodgepodgey mess I find it cleaner than C++.
19:56:50 <ehird> pikhq: THE $80K ONE? AWESOME!
19:57:02 <Deewiant> ehird: I mean, really. C++ isn't?
19:57:14 <ehird> Deewiant: i'm gonna be conservative in my use of C++ features, and at least it's a mess with a good toolchain
19:57:34 <AnMaster> the D toolchain definitely sucks
19:57:44 <AnMaster> even Deewiant has to admit that
19:58:10 <pikhq> It's a royal bitch to get set up, yes.
19:58:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> I know a bit more about assembler than most.
19:58:56 <ehird> more than most people in the world
19:59:08 <ehird> probably more than most people who have heard what assembly is
19:59:17 <ehird> but not more than most people who've written a program in asm
19:59:30 <Deewiant> pikhq: Once you've done it a few times it's not really much trouble at all, though. (On *nix. Windows is always a pain, but then it is so for almost any language.)
19:59:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you couldn't bring yourself to insert the phrase "D" there? Nor "dragonball"? What about other things on D? Maybe you have some sort of phobia against the letter D in that context?
19:59:55 <ehird> oh, that's what you meant?
20:00:03 <ehird> i thought "remove C++ from the project and insert D"
20:00:12 <pikhq> Deewiant: It's a consistent bitch on x86_64.
20:00:26 <pikhq> Since it *building* is a a gamble.
20:00:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, remember that "wrong file, right line number" in debug info?
20:00:54 <Deewiant> Random remarks don't constitute a case
20:01:02 <Deewiant> I thought we'd settled that already
20:01:17 <ehird> haha, gmail isn't beta any more
20:01:20 <ehird> who was remarking on that yesterday?
20:01:41 <Deewiant> pikhq: LDC builds quite cleanly on x86-64.
20:02:06 <Deewiant> DMD and co I run in a 32-bit chroot like other 32-bit stuff.
20:04:40 <ehird> i like inventing practical esolangs.
20:09:02 <AnMaster> befunge is probably one of the most practical ones
20:09:10 <AnMaster> also make sure you don't stray into DSLs
20:09:14 <ehird> as in, an odd language designed for a practical purpose.
20:09:27 <AnMaster> a DSL out of context can easily look like an esolang and vice verse.
20:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, sed is a special purpose language. If you never seen it before and then see an example of it used to implement a calculator (+-/* and square root) you would probably think "this is an esolang"
20:11:41 <AnMaster> of course this doesn't apply to for example malbolge, you can't mistake it as a dsl
20:12:04 <AnMaster> but some of those rewriting ones could probably be mistaken unless I misremember
20:12:15 <ehird> i wonder if anyone uses the extension .c++
20:12:21 <ehird> nobody seems to, prolly cause of windows
20:12:39 <ehird> Deewiant: it's invalid in filenames isnt it
20:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, a year or two ago at least. Don't remember which open source project
20:12:56 <Deewiant> ehird: My statement was implying that I don't think it is.
20:12:58 <ehird> wikipedia's [[C++]] doesn't cover the file extension issue
20:13:03 <AnMaster> ehird, .C .cc .CC .cxx are more common though
20:13:10 <ehird> pretty sure it's invalid
20:13:11 <oklodok> AnMaster: see your pm btw.
20:13:17 <AnMaster> there was both foo.c and foo.C
20:13:23 <ehird> AnMaster: the former one sucks on case insensitive filesystems like HFS :p
20:13:29 <ehird> i hate it when that happens
20:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster: .cpp is quite common
20:13:39 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you manually fix it
20:13:40 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_name doesn't appear to mention +.
20:13:41 <oklodok> or tell me here that you won't answer in pm
20:13:49 <ehird> .cc / .cpp > .cxx i would say for popularity
20:13:53 <ehird> AnMaster: also, i can but it's a pain
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20:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it should be used more IMO
20:14:41 <AnMaster> doesn't POSIX mandate case sensitive file systems
20:14:47 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think so.
20:15:01 <ehird> i'd say, ideally it'd be .c++, failing that, prolly .cpp, then .cc, then .cxx
20:15:08 <ehird> .c++ and .cpp are logical, .cc, .cxx and .C aren't
20:15:20 <ehird> also, we need to take into account headers
20:15:23 <ehird> i've never seen .hh
20:15:30 <ehird> people just use .h or .hpp
20:15:37 <ehird> certainly rare though
20:15:45 <AnMaster> ehird, never seen .H though...
20:15:52 <ehird> .hpp is the most common special h naming i've seen
20:15:56 <ehird> which lends more credence to .cpp too
20:16:04 <ehird> i'll ask stroustru
20:16:07 <ehird> maybe he has an opinion.
20:16:19 <ehird> AnMaster: shift typo
20:16:23 <ehird> i.e. hands rested one letter off
20:16:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'd say .hpp > .h > .hxx > .hh
20:16:57 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/~bs/pronounciation.wav strchstruwp
20:17:08 <ehird> .h is undesirable.
20:17:10 <ehird> if you do that, do .c too!
20:17:34 <AnMaster> <fizzie> O dpm <-- shifted to "I son"?
20:18:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, so the d was unshifted
20:18:19 <pikhq> ehird: String char string unsigned word pointer, in MS-speak. :P
20:18:20 <fizzie> It was just the right hand that was off-by-one. And the ' in the fi layout is next to enter, which is what I tried to press next.
20:18:35 <fizzie> Er, I mean, I tried ' but it came out as an enter.
20:18:41 <AnMaster> ehird, best way would be .C and .H clearly
20:18:44 <pikhq> They're Hungarian.
20:18:50 <ehird> AnMaster: best way would be .c++ and .h++
20:18:53 <ehird> .C/.H makes no sense
20:19:04 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, .c++ and .h++ would be better
20:19:15 <ehird> i never see .c++ either
20:19:22 <ehird> anyway, anyone got a windows box?
20:19:25 <AnMaster> I did see .c++, I think paired with .h
20:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, where is oerjan when you need him
20:19:56 <ehird> AnMaster: his computer crashed :)
20:20:06 <Deewiant> I can't be bothered to reboot just for that
20:20:09 <fizzie> According to MSDN it should work: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa365247(VS.85).aspx
20:20:21 <ehird> Deewiant: set up a vm pointed at the windows partition
20:20:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: Please link to the low-bandwidth one
20:20:22 <fizzie> The reserved ones are < > : " / \ | ? *.
20:20:34 <ehird> Deewiant: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa365247(VS.85,loband).aspx
20:20:36 <ehird> sorry, you wanted fizzie
20:21:02 <fizzie> I can't seem to find a link to that, just the printer-friendly thing.
20:21:38 <fizzie> But I'm not going to link to it! Ha ha!
20:21:49 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:22:12 <ehird> [[See my C++0x FAQ. The aim is for the 'x' in C++0x to become '9': C++09, rather than (say) C++0xA (hexadecimal :-).]]
20:24:04 <fizzie> Of course there's the catch-all "Any other character that the target file system does not allow". And in fact the FAT short-name can't contain a +: "The following special characters are also allowed: $ % ' - _ @ ~ ` ! ( ) { } ^ # &" (does not include +).
20:24:32 <fizzie> But the long-name can contain any of + , ; = [ ] too. And I guess NTFS is a bit more flexible.
20:24:35 <Deewiant> ehird: You commented about big pages, btw; MSDN reminded me of that. www.fox.com is at 1.46 MB (and still waiting for something, it seems) according to Firebug.
20:24:54 <ehird> I question why you'd want to load fox.com
20:24:58 <ehird> But anyway, that's multiple things
20:25:01 <ehird> You won't get a timeout
20:25:05 <ehird> Just some broken images and stuff
20:25:31 <Deewiant> No, but if you're browsing two things at once the other might timeout.
20:25:44 <Deewiant> I don't care whether it's strictly part of the page, just how much it stresses the connection.
20:26:15 <Deewiant> Anyway, fox.com was just an example, I figured it'd be pretty huge.
20:27:52 <Deewiant> I actually tried cnn.com first but it consistently hangs my whole browser.
20:31:45 <Deewiant> (It did respond to Ctrl-W, though.)
20:33:12 <pikhq> Whoo. Seems today was a really good time to get stuff from Newegg.
20:33:39 <pikhq> Phenom? Screw that; a Phenom II FTW.
20:34:02 <ehird> pikhq: Buy FIVE MILLION of them.
20:34:07 <ehird> pikhq: Also, DDR3 prices are near DDR2 now.
20:34:20 <pikhq> Also, AM2+ motherboard was still cheaper.
20:34:20 <ehird> Mayhaps you could get 2x2GB of DDR3 on the cheap, I think.
20:34:42 <ehird> Deewiant: "Almost as low as"
20:34:51 <ehird> No, they've improved very rapidly
20:35:00 <pikhq> ehird: $42 bucks off in total.
20:35:04 <Deewiant> ehird: Numbers, please. Preferably ones that have something to do with their relative prices.
20:35:06 <ehird> Deewiant: 2GB for $27.99 of DDR3.
20:35:25 <Deewiant> Wow, I can get $27.99 of DDR3‽
20:35:54 <Deewiant> I have over 6 times that of DDR2
20:36:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Lowest 2GB cost on newegg is $21.99; the DDR3 I was talking about was Crucial - a respected brand.
20:36:04 <ehird> The lowest DDR2? "Allcomponents".
20:36:16 <ehird> Looking further, you're saving just a few dollars.
20:36:19 <ehird> Deewiant: they're huge...
20:36:32 <fizzie> I have here an old laptop I'd like a 1 gigabyte so-dimm for; but it eats DDR1 only, and for some reason a 1-gigabyte DDR1 thing is approximately 40€, while a 1-gigabyte DDR2 so-dimm is ~13€. Around here.
20:36:33 <ehird> mostly in the "aftermarket memory upgrades" market
20:36:44 <ehird> Deewiant: you have 8GB of ram right?
20:37:20 <ehird> Deewiant: How much did it cost, and when?
20:37:57 <Deewiant> Something like 60-70 € twice, IIRC. It was on sale around... November?
20:38:24 <ehird> You can get 4GB of DDR3 in 2x2 for $57.99; although you can save a whole cent by getting 2x2 separately = $57.98. 130 euros is $181.
20:38:41 <fizzie> I seem to have bought a 2-gigabyte DDR2 stick for 17.90 € in April 28th.
20:38:41 <ehird> $57.98 = 41.52 eur
20:38:50 <pikhq> Deewiant: Crucial is well-respected and not over-priced.
20:39:04 <ehird> fizzie: 2GB of DDR3 = 20 euros
20:39:23 <Deewiant> This was, of course, Mushkin's Redline RAM and thus considered somewhat extraneously quality.
20:39:36 <Deewiant> It was also approximately the cheapest DDR2 I could find, interestingly enough.
20:39:46 <Deewiant> (Among brands that have names.)
20:39:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Interestingly, the clock speed and the like on DDR3 don't change Core i7 performance much out of synthetic benchmarks.
20:40:05 <ehird> I think bsmntbombdood's 12GB of DDR3 RAM was like $200
20:40:16 <Deewiant> Perhaps those synthetic benchmarks don't stress RAM!
20:40:26 <pikhq> I'm going from 256k of cache to 6M.
20:40:28 <ehird> Deewiant: I meant non-benchmarks don't change
20:40:40 <ehird> Anyway, all I'm sayin' is, if you have the mobo support, DDR3 is the only sane option.
20:40:47 <pikhq> I'm getting 3 times the CPUs. And 4 times the RAM.
20:40:54 <ehird> pikhq: how much ram are you getting?
20:40:58 <pikhq> My system's going to be modern again!
20:40:59 <ehird> also, 3 times the cores
20:41:19 <ehird> pikhq: I'd say DDR3 performance is worth $42, btw.
20:41:36 <pikhq> I'd have to get a more expensive motherboard for that.
20:41:40 <AnMaster> three times as much ram as number of cores?
20:41:44 <ehird> pikhq: You said $42 more.
20:42:01 <Deewiant> ehird: Well yeah, if you have the mobo support DDR3 is your only option. :-P
20:42:09 <ehird> AM3 mobos support both.
20:42:11 <pikhq> ehird: No, I'm saying it was a total of $42 off, because the CPU was marked down by $30 and the motherboard by $10.
20:42:12 <Deewiant> Or are there DDR2+3 boards these days.
20:42:12 <ehird> Which is the relevant case for pikhq.
20:42:17 <pikhq> And the RAM by $2.
20:42:24 <ehird> pikhq: What is your mobo+RAM costing you?
20:42:37 <Deewiant> I really shouldn't talk about hardware when I haven't been researching it recently.
20:42:56 <pikhq> ehird: Maybe $100?
20:43:03 <ehird> pikhq: Look at the prices, plz :P
20:43:52 <ehird> pikhq: I'm just trying to prove that DDR3 wouldn't actually add much cost at all to your system.
20:44:32 <ehird> pikhq: $133.97 for 4GB of DDR3 RAM and a supporting AM3 mobo.
20:44:56 <pikhq> Okay. More but not much more.
20:45:07 <ehird> ...which can't be said about the performance.
20:45:22 <ehird> (Uh, rephrase that more... positively)
20:46:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Deewiant: fizzie: New evidence in the C++ naming debate — apparently cfront used .cc
20:47:36 <ehird> pikhq: FWIW, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153149 and http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148149 x 2
20:51:24 <ehird> I wonder how the extensions fit with Objective-C++
20:51:40 <ehird> .mxx is really silly.
20:51:48 <ehird> Well, .mm or .mpp I guess
20:51:56 <ehird> So it's still down to .cc or .cpp in general
20:55:02 <fizzie> Maybe the ".mmm, marabou" extension.
20:58:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what about .m? I remember also seeing .c for C++
20:58:37 <AnMaster> was some shitty open source game
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20:58:56 <pikhq> And gcc breaks on that.
20:59:39 <Deewiant> In general I don't call on gcc for C++ source anyway.
21:00:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, not if you want it to work
21:00:07 <AnMaster> you can use -x or something iirc
21:00:55 <AnMaster> gcj -x c++ foo.cxx should work
21:01:17 <AnMaster> for extra sillyness: gcj -x c++ -std=c++98 foo.cxx
21:01:30 <AnMaster> it certainly works for gcc and g++
21:01:34 <ehird> surely ou mean GNAT
21:01:40 <ehird> JGNAT is a GNAT version that compiles from the Ada programming language to Java bytecode.
21:01:43 <ehird> jgnat -x or whatever :P
21:02:00 <AnMaster> iirc GNAT is kind of special in general
21:02:53 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: his computer crashed :) <-- that hasn't happened in a long while. although occasionally it refuses to start, saying "Operating system not found"
21:03:04 <ehird> oerjan: can you name a file butt.c++ ?
21:03:11 <ehird> well not necessarily butt
21:03:47 <fizzie> If he's on FAT32, he should be able too, as long as he doesn't care that the underlying 8.3-format short-name won't have a + there.
21:04:16 <fizzie> Well, FAT<anything>, I guess.
21:05:59 <ehird> Deewiant: tell that to ais523
21:06:12 <ehird> oerjan: did it work?
21:06:35 <ehird> argh i hate const correctness
21:06:50 <pikhq> (FAT<anything> with extra metadata to make it magically be proper UNIX)
21:07:01 <pikhq> Shame it's not in 2.6.
21:07:21 <oerjan> that's what i meant by "sure"
21:07:30 <ehird> hmm you don't have to write "return 0;" in c++
21:07:33 <ehird> i guess c99 stole that
21:07:36 <ehird> wonder if it's "best practice"
21:08:27 <oerjan> !haskell return 0 :: [Rational]
21:10:01 <oerjan> <AnMaster> and having a function combine
21:11:06 <oerjan> !haskell liftM2 (,) [2,7] [2,7]
21:11:10 <ehird> <AnMaster> and having a function combine
21:11:25 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main=print$liftM2 (,) [2,7] [2,7]
21:11:27 <EgoBot> [(2,2),(2,7),(7,2),(7,7)]
21:11:39 <ehird> tellll meeeeeeeee oerjan
21:12:23 <oerjan> a discussion on stupid factorization in the logs, iiuc
21:13:01 <pikhq> Factorization, actually.
21:13:56 <ehird> pikhq: btw your solution to euler #1 is much longer than needs be
21:14:13 <oerjan> also list comprehensions are probably clearer for beginners
21:15:08 <ehird> that's what it was
21:15:17 <ehird> lemme find the code
21:15:29 <oerjan> i wasn't commenting on your comment, btw
21:15:48 <oerjan> but list comprehensions may be a good bet anyhow ;D
21:16:01 <ehird> sum [n | n <- [1..1000-1], n `mod` 5 == 0 || n `mod` 3 == 0]
21:16:20 <pikhq> Instead of my filtering stuff.
21:16:26 <ehird> [|] IS filtering stuff
21:16:40 <ehird> but yours filters through [1..] to find the answer or something, which is bizarre
21:16:41 <pikhq> Not using the filter function, though.
21:16:43 <ehird> also 1000-1 is bizarre
21:16:49 <ehird> pikhq: yes it does
21:16:51 <ehird> concatMap is isomorphic
21:17:02 <ehird> [n | n <- blah, a]
21:17:02 <pikhq> main = print $ sum (filter (\x -> x `mod` 3 == 0 || x `mod` 5 == 0) [1..999])
21:17:04 <pikhq> That's my solution.
21:17:12 <oerjan> !haskell sum [n | n <- [1..999], 0 `elem` map (n `mod`) [3,5]]
21:17:17 <ehird> pikhq: that wasn't what you said first
21:17:30 <ehird> main = print . sum . filter (\x -> x `mod` 3 == 0 || x `mod` 5 == 0) $ [1..999]
21:17:32 <pikhq> ... You're thinking of something different.
21:17:50 <AnMaster> <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: his computer crashed :) <-- that hasn't happened in a long while. although occasionally it refuses to start, saying "Operating system not found" <-- how do you fix that when it happens?
21:18:21 <oerjan> it's very intermittent
21:18:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, sounds like harddrive issues, if bootloader can't find the OS
21:18:38 -!- zid has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:18:39 <Deewiant> That's a strange error to get intermittently
21:18:42 <ehird> +/~.(3*i.334),5*i.200
21:18:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, I seriously hope you have backups...
21:18:55 <oerjan> and it only seems to happen at booting
21:19:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, I suspect it is due to a harddrive that is nearing it's end of life
21:19:27 <oerjan> it has happened occasionally since i got the computer :D
21:19:29 <oklodok> my computer has started sparkling and smoking
21:19:53 <AnMaster> oklodok, shut it off and unplug everthing?
21:20:05 <oklodok> no no just occasionally when i lift it
21:20:06 <AnMaster> and stand ready with something to put out any fire
21:20:18 <AnMaster> oklodok, err. lift it while running? It is a laptop then?
21:20:42 <oklodok> i don't mind it, except i guess i am a bit afraid of leaving it alone.
21:21:03 <oklodok> i have to put vlc on fullscreen if i don't touch the computer for half an hour, or it crashes
21:21:09 <oklodok> that's another fun thing about this
21:21:26 <AnMaster> oklodok, sounds like it crashes when screen blanking?
21:21:31 <ehird> pikhq: also "sum [3,6..999] + sum [5,10..999] - sum [15,30..999]"
21:21:33 <ehird> which is a fun solution
21:21:43 <ehird> interestingly, the most impressive solution is in PHP.
21:21:48 <ehird> echo 1.5*(int)(($x-1)/3)*(int)(($x+2)/3) + 2.5*(int)(($x-1)/5)*(int)(($x+4)/5) - 7.5*(int)(($x-1)/15)*(int)(($x+14)/15);
21:21:50 <AnMaster> oklodok, because vlc in full screen mode would prevent sleep and screen blanking
21:21:50 <ehird> using that wacky formula thing
21:21:56 -!- zid has joined.
21:21:58 <oklodok> it crashes, can't do anything anymore, have to reboot.
21:22:03 <AnMaster> so theory is that one of them cause it to crash
21:22:29 <AnMaster> oklodok, right, but does it crash in the moment it is about to turn of the monitor due to inactivity or such?
21:22:39 <AnMaster> or put disks into stand-by mode
21:22:44 <oklodok> i've turned all those features off
21:23:06 <oklodok> so something like that, but something vista doesn't explicitly let you control
21:23:19 <oklodok> which fullscreen disables anyway
21:23:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that formula supposed to do?
21:23:31 <ehird> AnMaster: see euler problem 1.
21:24:34 <AnMaster> where are solutions listed then?
21:25:01 <ehird> you have to solve it first.
21:25:10 <pikhq> ehird: Nice solution.
21:25:10 <AnMaster> ah, have to create an account and so on then
21:25:29 <ehird> yes, you have to take two seconds to choose a username and password.
21:25:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't understand how that formula solves that problem. Does anyone?
21:25:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and then solve the problems too
21:25:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyone who knows mathematics, yes. Also, oh god, you have to "Find the sum of all the multiples of 3 or 5 below 1000."
21:25:57 <AnMaster> sure I can solve that first one at least easily enough
21:26:01 <ehird> How could we do it?!
21:26:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be one way to solve it
21:26:32 <pikhq> There's a number of easier ways of doing it.
21:26:40 <ehird> It would be a very stupid way. Iteration is almost always retarded.
21:27:09 <oklodok> iterating to 1000 is kinda overkill yeah
21:27:25 <oerjan> ehird: now you're just trolling. even i used iteration, even though i perfectly well know how to calculate triangle numbers
21:27:27 <pikhq> Take the list of numbers below 1000. Remove all those that aren't multiples of 3 or 5. Add up.
21:27:27 <ehird> it's a sum plus a filter.
21:27:30 <ehird> biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig deaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal
21:27:34 <AnMaster> ehird, summing a list implies some sort of iteration. Even if it is hidden as a sum function
21:27:40 <ehird> oerjan: you used a for loop?
21:27:42 <ehird> is this in haskell?
21:27:47 <ehird> i'd say that's terribly stupid of you if so.
21:27:56 <oerjan> ehird: i consider sum [...] to be iteration
21:28:03 <oklodok> i think oerjan was thinking a different kinda iteration
21:28:03 <ehird> AnMaster: i can just as easily say that a foor loop is a gloss over a filter.
21:28:08 <oerjan> ghc would compile it down to iteration anyway
21:28:15 <ehird> you say it your way because you are cpu-biased
21:28:18 <oerjan> (even though i use hugs)
21:28:18 <ehird> it's theoretically bullshit
21:28:27 <ehird> and a functional expression isn't fundamentally an iteration
21:28:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of computer doesn't implement it through iteration
21:28:59 <pikhq> sum [] = 0;sum (x:xs) = x + sum xs -- I didn't realise that was iteration.
21:29:04 <ehird> AnMaster: ooh, I'd love to see you across history
21:29:10 <ehird> "what sort of flying machine doesn't do it by being lighter than air"
21:29:20 <ehird> therefore, the airplane is bunk. QED.
21:29:26 <oklodok> pikhq: point is you can implement it without any iteration
21:29:29 <oklodok> because you can calculate it
21:29:34 <AnMaster> ehird, are there any examples of it
21:29:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm sure you'd have said that when the wright brothers started too
21:29:44 <oklodok> that's still the exact same algorithm
21:29:47 <AnMaster> sure it might be theoretically possible in the future
21:29:51 <oklodok> just less explicit ordering of the computations
21:29:55 <AnMaster> I'm just asking, does any such example exist today
21:30:12 <ehird> you're very stupid AnMaster. i'm surprised you program in anything but machine code.
21:30:42 <AnMaster> I fail to see how you think this insult would make sense.
21:30:44 * oerjan hands out some drama queen crowns |\/\/| |\/\/|
21:31:16 <AnMaster> only thing I'm asking is if there is any current computer that sums a list through anything but iteration
21:31:22 <oklodok> anyway i need to sleep now
21:31:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Itanium.
21:31:49 <AnMaster> you could of course use for example vector instructions to sum chunks at a time
21:32:16 <oerjan> you could use binary branching too
21:32:25 <AnMaster> iirc you can load 4 32-bit integers in a SSE register and sum them. but what if you have an array not fitting in your vector unit, whatever size it is.
21:32:32 <pikhq> It's got somewhat silly vector instructions.
21:32:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, but tell me of this case that doesn't need iteration to do it
21:33:42 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:33:49 <oerjan> sum each half recursively, then combining
21:34:18 <oerjan> if that's what it's called
21:34:36 <ehird> Huh, [1 | True] is [1]. I wonder what source it calls.
21:34:36 -!- coppro has joined.
21:34:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't know. But isn't mergesort basically the same? "sort each half, then combine"
21:34:40 <pikhq> Ah, sorry. It still iterates. It just does so in parallel.
21:34:48 <pikhq> With vector operations.
21:35:24 <AnMaster> you could maybe use summing memory
21:36:08 <AnMaster> like CAM but with hardware to sum all in parallel instead of hardware to match all in parallel
21:36:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:36:28 <AnMaster> doing that would however be rather silly
21:36:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: we managed to get lambdabot to calculate bigger factorials by using that method with products
21:37:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, which method do you mean?
21:37:26 <oerjan> recursing and combining
21:37:37 <oerjan> it obviously works for any associative operation
21:38:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, sounds like memoising(sp?)
21:38:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: good grief no
21:38:10 <ehird> it's not memoizing at all.
21:38:16 <ehird> wtf made you think that
21:38:51 <oerjan> it's just because it is better to multiply numbers of approximately equal magnitude, than to multiply large numbers by lots of small ones
21:39:07 <oerjan> so thus splitting up a factorial makes it faster
21:39:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah hm, maybe there is a reason for that. I don't know how bignums are implemented
21:39:43 <oerjan> we were using ordinary ghc Integers. i think it uses ... damn memory
21:40:35 <oerjan> i think it uses fast fourier transforms for really big numbers
21:41:04 <oerjan> although i'm not sure that applies much to this case
21:41:05 * AnMaster wonders what a slow fourier transforms would be
21:41:28 <ehird> speaking of bignum
21:41:32 <ehird> http://www.catonmat.net/blog/on-the-linear-time-algorithm-for-finding-fibonacci-numbers/
21:42:09 <fizzie> There are five multiplication algorithms; "Basecase", "Karatsuba", "Toom-3", "Toom-4" and "FFT"; they're all chosen by thresholds on the size of the numbers involved. http://gmplib.org/manual/Multiplication-Algorithms.html has the details.
21:42:11 <oerjan> we did something with fibonacci too
21:42:24 <fizzie> Five in GMP, I mean. It is rather unlikely there would be no others.
21:42:44 <ehird> i've always wanted something that's basically "like a float or a double if they were infinite"
21:42:49 <ehird> i guess Few Digits is basically that
21:45:12 <oerjan> ehird: there's some Computable Real library for haskell
21:45:30 <oerjan> those have some issues though, since comparison is undecidable
21:45:38 <ehird> oerjan: Few Digits == CReal
21:45:58 <ehird> !haskell print $ 2/3 :: CReal
21:46:02 <ehird> !haskell main = print $ 2/3 :: CReal
21:46:22 <oerjan> i doubt EgoBot even has that library, but who knows
21:47:03 <oerjan> lambdabot has a lot of extras
21:47:04 <ehird> oerjan: can you ask gwern to put \bot in #esoteric again? i'd feel pushy :P
21:47:18 <oerjan> i'm not even in #haskell you know
21:47:34 <oerjan> haven't been for a year or so
21:48:58 <ehird> Prelude Graphics.Gnuplot.Simple> plotFunc [] [0,0.1..10] sin
21:49:10 <ehird> pikhq: Throw out yer Maxima! Throw out yer MATLAB!
21:49:30 <ehird> that Haskell for Maths thing + cabal install gnuplot -fsplitBase -fexecutePipe
21:50:02 -!- AnMaster_ has joined.
21:50:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:50:22 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
21:50:54 <AnMaster> <oerjan> we did something with fibonacci too
21:51:05 <ehird> oerjan: privmsg gwern then? :P
21:52:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anything directed at me?
21:52:37 <ehird> oerjan finally expressed his gayness by proposing to yo.
21:52:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: computable reals in haskell
21:52:54 <AnMaster> if anyone wanted something important to me they can just say it again.
21:53:06 <oerjan> and bitching about lambdabot not being here to test it
21:53:23 <oerjan> and ehird nagging to have _me_ ask them, when he is the current regular
21:53:34 <ehird> and oerjan proposing to AnMaster
21:54:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, why did that bot leave btw?
21:54:09 -!- amuck_ has joined.
21:54:17 <ehird> a #haskeller already!
21:54:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: it sometimes crashes
21:54:27 <ehird> AnMaster: installing few digits involves darcs and also it's easier.
21:54:36 <ehird> ok, AnMaster has a new thing: it's saying "suuuuuuuuuuuuure".
21:55:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: if it's still like when i was there, it has something like a memory leak issue that no one could find
21:55:08 <AnMaster> ehird, crashing is a side effect ;P
21:55:20 -!- randomity has joined.
21:55:26 <AnMaster> so you need a monad for crashing or somehting
21:55:32 <oerjan> but then it has been extensively changed, at least the @run part iiuc
21:55:40 <ehird> how come #haskellers always come in here in droves when I just mention #esoteic in there
21:55:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> oerjan finally expressed his gayness by proposing to yo.
21:55:46 <ehird> oerjan: it's mueval now.
21:55:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you forgot my correction!
21:56:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> and oerjan proposing to AnMaster
21:56:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, suuuuuuuuuuuuure....
21:56:08 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from oerjan: 57.94 second(s) <-- btw
21:56:22 <randomity> we're all searching for a language that's harder to learn than haskell. #esoteric seems like a natural choice...
21:56:27 <oerjan> ehird: and it no longer gives nice error messages for runtime errors, i noticed
21:56:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't Haskell supposed to have a GC?...
21:56:39 <oerjan> well some errors anyway
21:56:50 <ehird> AnMaster: not if it spawns processes that leak...
21:56:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: GC doesn't prevent all memory leaks
21:57:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: you forgot my correction!
21:57:26 <AnMaster> the lag is so bad I'm over a minute out of sync
21:57:35 <ehird> stop talking until it fixes then
21:57:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: If you keep a reference to it but never use it.
21:57:44 <AnMaster> talking to anyone here would be faster using telegram!
21:58:06 <pikhq> randomity: Haskell was probably the hardest language to learn that I know.
21:58:07 <ais523> I doubt that would be faster than IRC
21:58:12 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: GC doesn't prevent all memory leaks <-- true
21:58:13 <oerjan> ehird: #haskell is full of droves, obviously they come
21:58:21 <ais523> you /can/ send telegrams nowadays, although I'm not entirely sure how they're deliveired
21:58:24 <pikhq> Of course, I don't know IINTERCAL.
21:58:34 <ais523> ehird: it is harder to learn than Haskell, though, IMO
21:58:39 <ehird> randomity: i was about to say that
21:58:46 <ehird> if you're not a cryptographer, malbolge is the hardest, prolly
21:58:48 <ais523> I wouldn't say that Malbolge is learnt at all, more cryptanalysed
21:58:54 <ehird> intercal is just weird
21:58:58 <ehird> haskell has a bunch of mind-changers
21:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, waiting for bouncer to join over 60 channels with freenode's rate limiting? Very funny
21:59:12 <ais523> ehird: well, I found Haskell easier to learn than INTERCAL
21:59:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you have nobody to blame but yourself.
21:59:26 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram#Worldwide_discontinuance_of_telegrams lists a rather sorry state of affairs.
21:59:36 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: telegram? <ais523> I doubt that would be faster than IRC <-- I feel for ehird. Sometimes.
21:59:38 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from oerjan: 70.49 second(s)
21:59:39 <pikhq> ais523: You must love functions.
22:00:01 <pikhq> Nobody knows all of C++. :P
22:00:05 <ais523> pikhq: disagree, C++ is easy to learn, just hard to learn well
22:00:12 <ehird> i wonder how i should represent irrationals
22:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, on other servers it is done much much faster
22:00:20 <pikhq> ais523: A subset of C++ is easy to learn.
22:00:35 <pikhq> This is the commonly used subset of the language.
22:00:38 <AnMaster> it is just that freenode's rate limiting sucks so much
22:00:55 -!- Associat0r has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:01:01 <pikhq> If you want some mind-warping, do functional programming with the type system.
22:01:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I still guarantee you, freenode is faster than telegrams
22:01:34 <ehird> [[Hippasus, however, was not lauded for his efforts: according to one legend, he made his discovery while out at sea, and was subsequently thrown overboard by his fellow Pythagoreans “…for having produced an element in the universe which denied the…doctrine that all phenomena in the universe can be reduced to whole numbers and their ratios.”]]
22:01:34 <ais523> I'm not even sure who handles telegrams nowadays; possibly the postal service
22:01:38 <ehird> old mathematics are hilarious
22:01:42 <pikhq> randomity: As is the rest of C++.
22:01:49 <ais523> once they've been sent to near their destination electronically
22:01:55 <randomity> it's like haskell, without closures, where lambda is template <class T> struct { typedef ... }
22:02:14 <oerjan> randomity: unlambda is harder than INTERCAL, but not as hard as Malbolge. in my opinion.
22:02:26 <oerjan> (not that i've programmed in malbolge)
22:02:48 <AnMaster> ais523, it is joining over 70 channels
22:02:52 <pikhq> Unlambda's not all that hard to learn. Hard to use well, perhaps, but it is just combinators.
22:03:04 <oerjan> i made a variant though. not that anyone has programmed that either.
22:03:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I invite you to #feather-lang btw :P
22:03:20 <pikhq> And yes, people don't program in Malbolge.
22:03:36 <pikhq> They do genetic programming for it.
22:03:54 <ehird> plenty of people since have written in it
22:04:00 <ehird> one guy mastered it by poking it with a stick
22:04:08 <ehird> two other people basically cryptanalyzed it
22:04:22 <ehird> pikhq: there IS a looping 99 bottles of beer in it y'know
22:05:14 <ehird> pikhq: non-cooke material: http://www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.shtml, http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html
22:05:17 <ehird> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Malbolge_programming
22:05:25 <AnMaster> sure telegram would be slower?
22:05:32 <ehird> lemme find the second person to do it
22:05:48 <ehird> http://www.antwon.com/index.php?p=234, darn it disappeared
22:05:56 <ehird> Hey there, party people. This is Antwon, checking in with his new and exciting web server from whence he can resurrect the full antwon.com experience.
22:05:56 <ehird> As you may have noticed, all of those nifty goodies like "features" and "content" aren't exactly displaying at this point in time. At the moment, all of my umpteen bazillion posts are stored away in a singular XML file - awesome from a "I did not lose this content!" standpoint, but less so from a "people can actually read my hard-fought years of maniacal writing!" vantage. Rest assured that I am working on things and will get something together Real Soon
22:06:03 <ehird> meh, web.archive.org away.
22:06:26 <ehird> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/823
22:07:17 * ais523 reads discussion about Microsoft's announcement about Mono patents
22:07:27 <ehird> pikhq: there's a compiler to malbolge apparently
22:07:28 <ehird> http://www.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/thesis/M2005/i/M350402019e.pdf
22:07:31 <ehird> http://www.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~nishida/DB/pdf/iizawa05ss2005-22.pdf (japanese)
22:07:41 <ehird> from a C-like language
22:07:52 <pikhq> I'm fucking frightened.
22:07:59 <ehird> ais523: the responses from the trolls to that were great
22:08:29 <ehird> ais523: they basically consisted of "that's not a legal promise!" (actually, it was), "they won't hit you, perhaps... instead they'll rape you!" (paraphrased…slightly), etc
22:08:42 <ais523> yep, there are only two issues that look legit: a) it doesn't cover several common libraries, only C# and .NET itself, and b) Microsoft could sell the patents to someone else, and the someone else could then sue
22:08:57 <ehird> (a) doesn't matter for most mono apps due to using gtk# and stuff
22:09:03 <ehird> although asp.net mvc is kinda popular, whatever
22:09:12 <ais523> however, I don't think Microsoft particularly care about Mono + GTK#
22:09:24 <ais523> after all, it hardly lets people run Windows programs
22:09:38 <ehird> there isn't a windowsforms implementation either
22:09:43 <ehird> so really, just asp.net is the issue
22:09:49 <ehird> and it's not even an issue anyway
22:09:54 <ehird> people just like to complain :P
22:10:05 <ehird> estoppel was mentioned in the reddit comments, so…
22:10:06 -!- ehird has changed nick to estoppel.
22:10:14 <ais523> yep, that's what point b) is about
22:10:20 <ais523> Microsoft is estopped, nobody else is though
22:11:24 <estoppel> http://ciphersaber.gurus.org/WTCliberties.gif ← I want to make a motivational of this with just a title: "POLITICAL CARTOON"
22:11:35 <estoppel> ais523: I'm pretty sure such a case would be rejected under estoppel anyway; isn't it vague?
22:11:54 <ais523> estoppel: that would be a massive loophole
22:12:09 <ais523> if I promised not to sue you for pirating someone else's music, that wouldn't stop the RIAA doing it
22:13:46 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:13:48 <oerjan> this brings to mind that in norway at least you can put restrictions on what people can do with ground property, even when resold. isn't there anything similar in other countries?
22:13:52 <estoppel> [[On second glance, the C code is obviously just a Malbolge interpreter, so I guess there's not really anything useful to get from it (unless we can get it translated). --Rune 21:12, 1 Jun 2006 (UTC) ]]
22:13:57 -!- oklodok has joined.
22:14:07 <oerjan> i'm not sure if applies to anything but estate
22:14:20 <ais523> actually, it's quite hard to be /obviously/ a Malbolge interpreter
22:14:30 <ais523> surely nobody's memorized the encryption table?
22:14:46 <ais523> without knowing that, it would be hard to tell if something was implementing Malbolge, or a similar language with different encryption
22:15:02 <ais523> according to HackEgo, anyway
22:15:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: oklodok's pet word. be kind to it.
22:15:24 <AnMaster> <estoppel> [[On second glance, the C code is obviously just a Malbolge interpreter, so I guess there's not really anything useful to get from it (unless we can get it translated). --Rune 21:12, 1 Jun 2006 (UTC) ]] <-- source of citation?
22:17:30 * pikhq wants a Malbolge self-interpreter.
22:17:40 <pikhq> Erm. Malbolge interpreter in Malbolge.
22:18:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, could only interpret a smaller program
22:18:16 <estoppel> [[Irrational number]] doesn't have any ideas for representation :(
22:18:20 <AnMaster> estoppel, connect input to output
22:18:24 <pikhq> Oh, right. They made it arbitrarily finite.
22:18:42 <AnMaster> estoppel, I read about that somewhere else
22:19:07 <pikhq> Malbolge + PSOX is Turing-complete.
22:19:28 <pikhq> Assuming you can do the relevant PSOX support code, that is.
22:19:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, can't you just use PSOX right away as it currently is?
22:20:13 <pikhq> I think you misunderstood.
22:20:29 <pikhq> *Malbolge* code to actually talk with PSOX.
22:20:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, well that should be possible in theory
22:20:53 <AnMaster> if you can fit it in the length of the program
22:21:04 <pikhq> That's the tricky bit.
22:21:06 <ais523> wow at this statistic: fine against Jammie Thomas per song copied = $84000; compensation for family of each person who died in the Air France crash = $24000
22:21:30 <pikhq> ais523: Average yearly income ~= $40,000.
22:21:45 <ais523> that fits well with the other two
22:21:46 <oerjan> pikhq: the basic operations of malbolge are such that it is hard _not_ to make it arbitrarily finite. that's what i tried to fix in my Unshackled variant.
22:22:20 <estoppel> ais523: that $24,000 was the original payment
22:22:41 <ais523> it's statistics, it doesn't have to be correct
22:23:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: the program is loaded into memory, so same size bound
22:23:44 <oerjan> you didn't say the readon
22:23:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I knew it, I just didn't spell it out.
22:24:41 <estoppel> oerjan: is there a way to represent the irrationals apart from as a computation (polynomials count as that)
22:29:19 <oerjan> some irrationals cannot be represented as computations >:)
22:29:45 <estoppel> oerjan: well, ok, but they're useless :)
22:29:51 <estoppel> oerjan: assume computable rationals
22:30:21 <pikhq> The computable irrationals may only be represented as a computation or an infinite series of digits.
22:30:35 <pikhq> (in Haskell, of course, the two are equivalent. ;))
22:30:48 <estoppel> pikhq: problem with digits is you have to pick a base, and that sucks.
22:31:12 <estoppel> and computations can't be compared.
22:31:48 <pikhq> An infinite series of digits may be compared, but if they're equal, the comparison will never terminate.
22:32:22 <oerjan> estoppel: oh. in that case use continued fractions. no base involved.
22:32:35 <fizzie> "Also the (==) function returns false if the two CReals are different, and does not terminate if the two CReals have the same value."
22:33:03 <estoppel> oerjan: hmm can continued fractions represent rationals?
22:33:12 <oerjan> estoppel: it may be using a cutoff?
22:33:19 <estoppel> oerjan: that would be Evil, I'm sure not.
22:33:27 <oerjan> estoppel: sure, they are _finite_ continued fractions
22:33:38 <estoppel> that's no continued fraction :D
22:33:52 <pikhq> oerjan: It's infinite, actually.
22:34:09 <pikhq> And an infinite number of them have 0 in the numerator.
22:34:12 <estoppel> oerjan: but (significand,exponent) is a bit more efficient than using continued fractions for rationals
22:35:36 <oerjan> estoppel: well you could use a mixed representation
22:36:04 <estoppel> well (significand,exponent) sucks anyway because it's quite close to picking a base
22:36:20 <estoppel> also it doesn't handle infinite-didget endowed rationals
22:36:27 <estoppel> i forgot now to spell digit...
22:37:01 <oerjan> erm rationals don't have infinite digits
22:37:23 <estoppel> oerjan: well that's true if you can pick a base
22:37:34 * oerjan swats himself -----###
22:37:51 <estoppel> 'cuz, like, you're a mathematician
22:38:04 <oerjan> i was thinking numerator/denumerator
22:38:58 <oerjan> i see 2 digits there, in total :D
22:39:39 <estoppel> anyway right, you can't represent that as (significand,exponent)
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22:40:14 <estoppel> (as a ... non-continued fraction)
22:40:33 <estoppel> continued fractions reduce to rationals
22:41:02 <estoppel> oerjan: is there a name for 0.01101110010111011110001001…?
22:41:19 <estoppel> that is, 0.{all integers from 0 up, in binary, concatenated}
22:41:59 <estoppel> I get how 1/x reduces obviously with a continued fraction
22:42:05 <estoppel> now i need to figure out how to do 2/3 that way
22:42:18 <oerjan> euclidean algorithm essentially
22:42:57 <estoppel> oerjan: that sounds dangerously Slow with a capital S.
22:43:22 <oerjan> it's the algorithm with divmod too
22:43:29 <estoppel> oerjan: calculating n/m is O(whatever euclidean is), not O(1)
22:43:40 <estoppel> with (n,m) representation, it's O(1)
22:43:58 <estoppel> oerjan: what about continued fractions, but instead of just 1 as the numerator,
22:44:05 <oerjan> bignums aren't really O(1) anyhow :D
22:44:10 <estoppel> then it just reduces to 2/3 = 0 + 2/3
22:44:15 <estoppel> indeed that's the subject of the post I linked
22:44:19 <estoppel> http://www.catonmat.net/blog/on-the-linear-time-algorithm-for-finding-fibonacci-numbers/
22:44:25 <estoppel> oerjan: but would that modification change anything?
22:45:22 <oerjan> i don't know how much it changes, it's not like i've tried implementing arithmetic operations on c.f. of either kind
22:45:34 <oerjan> those with only 1 are called simple, iirc
22:45:43 <estoppel> data CF = Add Integer CF | Div Integer CF | Zero
22:46:21 <oerjan> one thing it messes up is uniqueness of representation, obviously
22:46:32 <estoppel> oerjan: what's wrong with that if the representation isn't exposed?
22:46:52 <oerjan> it may make it harder to do comparisons?
22:47:06 <estoppel> oerjan: i'll just have a "simplify" function
22:48:41 <estoppel> oerjan: hmm an issue is that I can't `show` irrationals
22:49:10 <oerjan> a cutoff seems inevitable
22:49:34 <estoppel> oerjan: but entering "fullPi" in a REPL and getting an infinite output would be such fun :D
22:49:49 <estoppel> with infinite digits I can do that, with continued fractions not :<
22:49:59 <estoppel> infinite digits has less dependencies, essentially
22:50:06 <estoppel> whereas continued fractions have infinite dependencies
22:50:18 <oerjan> estoppel: you can have a showFull function, of course
22:50:32 <estoppel> oerjan: of type showFull :: CF -> String?
22:50:36 <estoppel> then why can't I have show :: CF -> String?
22:50:51 <oerjan> it's just that ordinary show is used for embedding things in larger data structures, so you need it to end if you want to show the rest of it
22:51:07 <estoppel> I thought you meant it was really impossible :)
22:51:11 <estoppel> oerjan: but I can't end it eg for pi
22:51:27 <estoppel> there'll never be a Read CF that covers everything
22:51:36 <oerjan> well you've got to make a choice then
22:51:37 <estoppel> oerjan: a cutoff is reasonable, though
22:52:00 <estoppel> oerjan: not sure how to encode it though; show is stateless
22:52:05 <estoppel> i guess show = myShow 0 rather
22:53:05 <estoppel> oerjan: i think a simplified continued fraction is best
22:53:11 <estoppel> oerjan: so I have one representation, except I won't
22:53:33 <estoppel> oerjan: because you can always make an infinite representation, can't you?
22:53:50 <oerjan> there is also the question that some numbers are undecidable to print to complete representation
22:54:24 <oerjan> actually the undecidability might happen already when calculating the c.f.
22:55:35 <estoppel> oerjan: this doesn't sound nice or fluffy to me.
22:55:46 <oerjan> estoppel: pikhq mentioned you could just append 0's. 1/(0+1/(0+...
22:56:00 <estoppel> oerjan: that makes > show 3 → "3<<HANG>>
22:56:15 <estoppel> oerjan: he was talking about unrestricted numerator.
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22:56:34 <estoppel> oerjan: with restricted-to-1 numerator, you need a special base case
22:56:46 <estoppel> data CF = Add Integer OneDiv | Zero
22:56:51 <estoppel> ↑ pretty sure this representation is unique
22:57:14 <estoppel> oerjan: if I make sure that the Integer in Add is >=1, that representation is unique, isn't it?
22:57:21 <estoppel> all rational and irrational numbers have one representation
22:57:59 <oerjan> um you are missing numbers 0 <= ... < 1 there...
22:58:36 <estoppel> oerjan: but assuming numbers <1 don't exist
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22:59:51 <oerjan> you have infinity in there
23:00:00 <oerjan> i think Zero is in the wrong place
23:00:02 <estoppel> if it's impossible to get unique representations for all rational and irrational numbers, please do tell me, btw
23:00:40 <pikhq> estoppel: I strongly suspect it's possible to get unique representations for all rational numbers.
23:01:01 <pikhq> The irrational numbers cannot necessarily be represented.
23:01:03 <oerjan> but you also want to disallow one of 0 + 1/1 or 1
23:02:05 <pikhq> estoppel: Then it's obvious that there's a unique representation for them.
23:02:35 <estoppel> data OneDiv = OneDiv CF | Zero
23:02:35 -!- FireyFly has quit (Connection timed out).
23:02:57 <estoppel> oerjan: so from this what constraints do we use? i want to include negative numbers and 0 here
23:03:28 <oerjan> negative numbers needs sign somehow
23:03:59 <oerjan> that's just going to mess up things
23:04:20 <oerjan> but you already disallowed Add 0 _
23:04:30 <estoppel> oerjan: btw we can still represent 1/0
23:04:47 -!- M0ny has quit.
23:05:27 <estoppel> data CF = Add {-(/= 0)-} Integer OneDiv
23:05:27 <estoppel> data OneDiv = OneDiv CF | Zero
23:05:35 <oerjan> you seriously need a data type that is >= 1 only
23:05:46 <estoppel> oerjan: yes, but I'm not using bloody peano
23:05:58 <estoppel> oerjan: these constructors aren't public, anyawy
23:06:02 <estoppel> so nobody else can access them
23:06:15 <estoppel> oerjan: well, what would I do?
23:06:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:06:55 <oerjan> require >= 1 integer in CF there
23:07:12 <oerjan> and have another data type for all reals
23:07:26 <estoppel> oerjan: 23:06 oerjan: require >= 1 integer in CF there ;; with what? I don't really want to, as gmp is fast.
23:08:29 <oerjan> well you'll just have to have runtime assertion then
23:08:42 <estoppel> oerjan: what does that buy me? nothing at all
23:08:52 <estoppel> over just not writing (Add n) without checking n isn't 0
23:08:59 <oerjan> estoppel: i'm not saying literally
23:09:18 <estoppel> oerjan: "{-(/ 0)-} Integer" is my pet constraint description convention
23:09:44 <oerjan> i mean if you insist on using Integers, while c.f.'s are based on naturals, then you'll have to have runtime assumptions
23:10:18 <oerjan> also, you seriously don't want 1/(-1 + 1/...) to occur
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23:10:57 <oerjan> no uniqueness whatsoever?
23:11:37 <estoppel> oerjan: can all negative reals be represented as -real?
23:12:20 <estoppel> data Add = Add {-(> 0)-} Integer OneDiv
23:12:21 <estoppel> data OneDiv = OneDiv Add | Zero
23:12:23 <estoppel> data CF = Positive Add | Negative Add
23:12:29 <estoppel> other constraints, i assume, must be applied.
23:12:51 <oerjan> CF needs a few more cases
23:13:06 <oerjan> you are missing all of (-1, 1) i think
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23:13:40 <estoppel> oerjan: right you are. that's why I have > 0 there.
23:13:46 <estoppel> unfortunately, solving one problem introduces another.
23:13:55 <estoppel> oerjan: do you mean like adding | MinusOne Add?
23:14:09 <estoppel> MinusOne (Add 1 (OneDiv (Add 2 Zero)))
23:15:00 <oerjan> that certainly destroys uniqueness again
23:15:14 <oerjan> 0.4 is logically contained in OneDiv
23:15:25 <estoppel> oerjan: no it's not, due to the Add dependency
23:15:53 <estoppel> "we've made it easy to re-enable the beta label for Gmail from the Labs tab under Settings"
23:16:48 <ais523> oerjan: yes, because 4.0 = 1 / (0.25)
23:16:49 <estoppel> oerjan: is 2.5 contained in Add, though?
23:16:53 <oerjan> also you need to be careful about negative zero
23:17:06 <estoppel> oerjan: so I don't miss (-1,1).
23:17:30 <estoppel> oerjan: 23:16 oerjan: 0.4 = 1/(2.5) ?
23:17:44 <oerjan> but 0.4 is _not_ contained in Add
23:17:53 <oerjan> Add and OneDiv are disjoint
23:18:10 <estoppel> oerjan: this is terribly confusing
23:18:38 <oerjan> that's because you're trying too hard to make a small number of elegant cases, i think
23:19:00 <estoppel> oerjan: i just keep having to restructure as you come up with more things :D
23:19:53 <estoppel> data Add = Add {-(> 0)-} Integer OneDiv
23:20:25 <oerjan> problem is you want something that is OneDiv except Zero
23:20:33 <estoppel> data OneDiv = OneDiv Add | Zero
23:20:49 <oerjan> otherwise you get a negative Zero when putting things together the obvious way
23:21:04 <estoppel> oh, you mean Negative (Add 0 Zero)?
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23:21:22 <oerjan> Add 0 Zero does not exist
23:21:31 <estoppel> oerjan: so we DON'T have negative zero
23:21:44 <oerjan> estoppel: you have not put everything together yet
23:21:55 <oerjan> you are still missing (-1, 1) in the final datatype
23:22:01 <estoppel> true. and i won't for, say, 12 hours. buh bye! thanks for your help.
23:22:13 * oerjan swats estoppel -----###
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23:24:37 <pikhq> IE usage is now down to 56% overall.
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23:34:28 <ais523> hmm... latest browser news: statistics show IE market share dropped 8% in a month, nobody believes them
23:34:47 <ais523> the web statistic sites are assuming it's some sort of error in the way the data was collected
23:35:03 <oerjan> well 46% of all statisticians are liars, anyway
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00:15:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I saw it on Slashdot
00:15:17 <ais523> it's probably still there
00:15:46 <ais523> the links are http://marketshare.hitslink.com/status.aspx and http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-na-daily-20080701-20090707, apparently, but I didn't follow them
00:15:58 <ais523> people don't actually follow links at Slashdot, they just read the summary
00:16:24 <AnMaster> last I looked slashdot was large
00:16:57 <pikhq> Slashdot is fucking huge.
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00:27:29 <AnMaster> new major firefox version release. Thus some clients counted more than once, once for old user agent, once for new
00:27:46 <ais523> ooh, could be plausible
00:27:57 <ais523> except that it was a drop in IE, rather than a rise in Firefox
00:27:57 <oerjan> > fun.cycle$"lambda! "::Expr
00:27:59 <lambdabot> lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lam...
00:28:00 <thutubot> lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lambda! lam...
00:28:03 <ais523> the drop was filled by Firefox, Safari and Chrome
00:29:57 <oerjan> hm that actually proves nothing
00:30:46 <AnMaster> ais523 might be able to explain it
00:31:43 <oerjan> @vixen how do you feel?
00:31:47 <AnMaster> ais523, care to explain what the hell is going on
00:32:03 <oerjan> @vixen Microoptimisation of gnomes
00:32:24 <ais523> AnMaster: someone's /msging thutubot
00:32:54 <AnMaster> why would someone set up a lambdabot -> thutubot relay?
00:33:14 <ais523> and not easily, thutubot isn't saving debug data anywhere
00:33:46 <AnMaster> also how did you produce the "like this"?
00:35:06 <AnMaster> ais523, why not return it to sender?
00:35:22 <ais523> thutubot is printing everything sent to it, and people haven't been /msging it until I suggested it
00:35:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what happened just there
00:36:25 <ais523> ok, that is weird; thutubot didn't see itself sending that
00:36:47 <ais523> oh, but it isn't seeing its own sends anyway
00:36:54 <ais523> ahaha, I've figured it out
00:37:00 <ais523> it's thutubot's +haskell command
00:37:15 <ais523> it's meant to send the message to lambdabot, then relay the response
00:37:34 <ais523> in two ways: a) it isn't sending on to lambdabot, and b) it's repeating everything lambdabot says
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06:15:54 <Deewiant> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
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06:53:22 <chuck> Deewiant: just another crucial step in google's plot to take over the world.. muahaha.
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09:20:02 <oklodol> fizzie: Five in GMP, I mean. It is rather unlikely there would be no others. <<< you can get an infinite descent of asymptotically better multiplication algos by extending the divide-and-conquer method of karatsuba; but i don't know how fft is done for numbers, if it's O(n lg n) it's beyond that descent
09:20:16 <oklodol> i thought fft only made sense for polys
09:21:04 <fizzie> http://numbers.computation.free.fr/Constants/Algorithms/fft.html has a shortish explanation.
09:22:58 <fizzie> And actually the GMP manual explains what they do, too.
09:29:45 <oklodol> estoppel: pikhq: problem with digits is you have to pick a base, and that sucks. <<< you can use other kinds of series, like continued fractions; but really there's no need to have an explicit representation until you print
09:29:59 <oklodol> oerjan: estoppel: oh. in that case use continued fractions. no base involved. <<< right, i was already here
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09:44:04 <oklodol> fizzie: what year is that idea from?
09:44:37 <oklodol> i thought there was no known n lg n for multiplication, even though i knew fft does that for polynomials
09:45:52 <fizzie> The Schönhage and Strassen paper referred to in the GMP manual are from 1971, but I haven't actually read it, so I don't know what they promise w.r.t. multiplication.
09:47:34 <oklodol> okay right, seems you can reduce the multiplication to multiplication of polynomials
09:49:37 <oklodol> oh, that was the problem, i thought i saw something weird there
09:50:17 <oklodol> "and a final rearrangement on the coefficients of R(z) permits to obtain the product XY" what rearrangement?
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10:02:05 <fizzie> I would peek at the 1971 paper, but based on the title -- "Schnelle Multiplikation grosser Zahlen" -- it is probably in German. And that other page refers to a paper called "Multiplication en le Lisp" in French.
10:02:29 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a less overviewy explanation in the tubes, though.
10:02:51 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html <-- Is it based on linux or from scratch?
10:02:53 <oklodol> i think i already decrypted the page
10:03:13 <oklodol> at least that's the impression i got
10:03:26 <AnMaster> "The software architecture is simple — Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel."
10:04:22 <AnMaster> So basically you can't use it where there is no internet connection I guess
10:04:27 <oklodol> well, i don't see the relevance of that info, so i guess i wouldn't remember the fact either.
10:06:46 <oklodol> AnMaster: it's made for "people who live on the net"
10:07:15 <AnMaster> oklodol, yes right, but what if you are traveling and there happen to be no public wlan where you are or such.
10:07:24 <AnMaster> and no mobile phone connection either
10:08:27 <oklodol> you'd think there's some offline happenings too. but i just took a glance at the public info thingie.
10:08:29 <fizzie> Then you should be getting out of such a dark place.
10:08:57 <AnMaster> I was travelling by train from Kiruna (in north Sweden) down to the south parts of Sweden a few weeks ago. Except around the towns the mobile phone mostly reported no connection or extremely bad one.
10:09:08 <oklodol> you can't swim if internet don't stream
10:09:12 <AnMaster> which is known for good coverage.
10:09:50 <oklodol> statisticians say 97% of finland is covered by connective flow.
10:09:53 <fizzie> I don't remember when I've last been outside GPRS coverage; of course online activities at "a kilobyte every now and then" speeds might not be so pleasant.
10:10:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was outside GSM even!
10:11:01 <AnMaster> and since my phone tends to switch over to some other carrier and say "emergency calls only" if Telia isn't reachable but even that didn't happen, I assume outside all coverage.
10:13:08 <AnMaster> most of the distance between Kiruna and Boden there was no coverage at all
10:13:10 <fizzie> The page I found about the 97 % GSM coverage is from 2001, they might've improved that a tiny bit. Anyway, if you don't get the internets, it's your own fault for going to such a silly place.
10:13:41 <fizzie> oklodol: It was, according to http://www.eduskunta.fi/faktatmp/utatmp/akxtmp/kk_945_2001_p.shtml
10:13:50 <oklodol> i basically just let the flow tell the coverage to me.
10:13:52 <fizzie> Well, for Sonera's GSM network.
10:14:06 <fizzie> Yes, I have no idea about other places.
10:14:39 <oklodol> i wonder if i can feel statistics correct nowadays.
10:14:42 <fizzie> Still, I'm sure the thing will have at least some offline functionality.
10:14:55 <AnMaster> in south Sweden I tend to get at least one "dot" on the connection quality indicator thingy on the phone
10:15:27 <fizzie> I guess there is probably still some out-of-GSM-coverage areas up there in Lapland.
10:16:34 <oklodol> 3% of finland is not that much
10:16:48 <fizzie> Well, I don't know about "lot". They do claim that 97 % is geographically speaking, not "amount of people", so...
10:17:22 <fizzie> Well, start building base stations then!
10:18:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, right, probably will cover one house each at most... Up there you can go on for miles without seeing a single house, or even a road crossing the railway.
10:19:21 <fizzie> If we've managed to cover 97 % (at least) of our surface area, you should too.
10:19:28 <AnMaster> possibly worth it along the railroad/railway (what is the diff? Is one US and one UK?), but apart from that it wouldn't be economically viable I bet.
10:21:34 <oklodol> i suggest taxpayers pay straight to sonera.
10:22:55 <fizzie> Can't seem to find very specific information about the current situation here. From what I've seen, a single station can cover a reasonably large distance if you stick it on top of a fell, if you don't mind the fact that some of the valley-like parts get left out.
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10:24:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think large parts up there, are "nationalparker"
10:24:28 <AnMaster> not sure what that is in English
10:24:50 <fizzie> If you want to see Sonera's map, it's at http://mobileplaza.sonera.fi/matkapuhelin/kuuluvuus_kotimaassa.html -- it is clickable for closer look, and the colors for the detailed maps are: white = no-coverage, grey = needs-an-external-antenna, blue = normal GSM/GPRS, yellow = EDGE, green = 3G things.
10:25:29 <fizzie> Not too much white in there, but still some.
10:25:30 <AnMaster> protected areas of nature, you aren't allowed to do anything that will change it basically.
10:26:22 <fizzie> It's some sort of GPRS speed-upgrade, I think it was called "2.5G" somewhere too.
10:26:31 <fizzie> "Enhanced Data Rates for GSM Evolution".
10:26:46 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDGE
10:27:18 <fizzie> "EDGE can carry data speeds up to 236.8 kbit/s --" though that's very much a theoretical thing only.
10:29:35 <fizzie> The 3G coverage is rather poor, though, pretty much cities only.
10:30:26 <fizzie> And special places; it seems they've stuck a single 3G base station at the Koli ski resort place, for example.
10:30:52 <AnMaster> is that some famous tourist attraction or such?
10:31:23 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "famous" but I guess it's reasonably popular.
10:31:51 <fizzie> Famous enough to have a Wikipedia article about it (well, not the ski resort, but the adjacent national park): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koli_National_Park
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10:34:31 <AnMaster> oh so it is national park in English too?
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10:35:31 <ais523> and "national park" is certainly a concept in English
10:35:31 <ais523> although I can't tell if it's the same one you're referring to without more context
10:36:08 <fizzie> After the shutting-down of the ages-old 450 MHz analog NMT mobile phone network, they've reused that frequency range for the "@450" mobile broadband (1M/512k) which I guess has a better coverage than the 3G; 90 % of population, though that translates to some much lower percentage of geographical area.
10:37:06 <AnMaster> protected area of nature, you aren't allowed to do basically anything that can change it with some exceptions.
10:37:21 <fizzie> Maybe "ages-old" is a bit of an exaggeration: "The world's first NMT call was made in Tampere, Finland, in 1978.[1] The NMT network was opened in Sweden and Norway in 1981, and in Denmark and Finland in 1982."
10:38:12 <fizzie> If you want an "official definition" for a national park, I guess this listing suffices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Commission_on_Protected_Areas
10:38:20 <fizzie> Everyday use might differ, there you have to ask one of the natives.
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10:50:39 <ais523> <IBM's lawyers> The term "concerning" shall mean relating to, referring to, reflecting, describing, evidencing, referencing, discussing or constituting.
10:52:25 <ais523> ooh, and Google are writing their own OS, using Linux's kernel (and presumably drivers, etc.) but none of the rest of the stuff that's normally used together with the kernel
10:53:07 <fizzie> If you logread, you'd know it was the original source for what led to the "national park" discussion.
10:53:11 <fizzie> But you don't. Woe is you!
10:53:26 <ais523> no, I don't normally have the focus to logread
10:53:40 <fizzie> If I were one of them IBM's lawyers, I'd add "concering" itself somewhere in the middle of that list.
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11:05:17 <oklodol> AnMaster: oh so it is national park in English too? <<< what part of "same" did you not understand
11:05:31 <AnMaster> oklodol, where did you say it was the same?
11:05:44 <oklodol> 12:24… AnMaster: not sure what that is in English
11:06:45 <fizzie> oklodol: You are so terse.
11:06:54 <fizzie> I didn't see the "same" either.
11:07:15 <fizzie> Why does that sound like an insult? "Ha ha, you're so terse!"
11:07:24 <oklodol> because terse also means stupid
11:07:38 <fizzie> Wordnet only lists: # S: (adj) crisp, curt, laconic, terse (brief and to the point; effectively cut short) "a crisp retort"; "a response so curt as to be almost rude"; "the laconic reply; `yes'"; "short and terse and easy to understand"
11:08:15 <fizzie> "You're not one of those tersies, are you?"
11:08:19 <oklodol> at least something very close to it means stupid, or is used that way.
11:08:41 <oklodol> or your pun just deceived my brain
11:08:56 <oklodol> i guess it wouldn't have been a pun then
11:10:37 <oklodol> possibly because i didn't think about it, but still
11:21:50 <fizzie> I had written that word already, then decided not to mention it for some reason.
11:22:07 <fizzie> Also I typoed "I had written that world already" first. Meaningful?
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11:40:30 <oklodol> i'm feeling glemifandulous.
11:41:16 <oerjan> well that _does_ sort of sound like a problem with the brain, possibly the language center...
11:43:12 <oklodol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
11:44:27 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glial_cell
11:45:23 <oklodol> i'm not sure how that's helpful
11:45:43 <oklodol> i've told numerous times there's a well-known connection between all that is gli and all that is glue.
11:46:04 <oerjan> yeah they sort of stick together
11:46:25 <oklodol> okokokokokokokokookokokokokoko
11:50:10 <oerjan> oklodol: that's easy when you have perfect straight men
11:51:54 <oklodol> i'm not sure i get it even with fizzie's explanaiton
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11:52:35 <oklodol> you should really buy those oculatory aids.
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12:00:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> Also I typoed "I had written that world already" first. Meaningful?
12:00:33 <fizzie> Hah; since GPRS is called "2.5G" by some, and not everyone counts EDGE as "3G" since it's so sucky, some people apparently seriously refer to EDGE as a "2.75G" technology.
12:00:41 <oerjan> clearly you have subconscious delusions of grandeur
12:01:26 <fizzie> Where will it end? Soon there'll be a πG thing.
12:01:58 * oerjan assumes that character is a pi
12:02:35 <oerjan> for texnological reasons
12:02:38 <fizzie> Yes, that's what it should be.
12:04:54 * oerjan is too lazy to go back to the logs to check right after he closed the page
12:05:50 <oerjan> and of course you all know already i'm too lazy to set up unicode correctly
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13:33:15 <ogliopol> okay don't copy that was awesome :D
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15:51:41 <ogliopol> i should get lilja to start saying flia.
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16:25:11 <ais523> hmm... I thought the next one would have 24 os
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19:25:16 <ehird> am i ehird or estoppel?
19:27:18 <ehird> 15:24:37 <pikhq> IE usage is now down to 56% overall.
19:27:30 <ehird> what's the stats from
19:27:34 <ais523> ehird: it dropped 8% in a month, as a result nobody believes the statistics
19:27:53 <ais523> and at least three of the major web stats people noticed it, but assumed it was something giving an incorrect reasing
19:27:55 <ehird> ais523: the kind of websites to release such statistics tend to not be frequented by IE users
19:28:00 <ais523> and tbh, I think it's something like that too
19:28:01 <ehird> so I'd say it's bullshit
19:28:24 <ais523> a drop that sudden is unbelievable, something must have confused the browser detection
19:28:46 <ehird> ais523: google started running Chrome ads on TV in the usa...
19:28:58 <ehird> sounds like we've found our culprit. maybe.
19:29:09 <ais523> yep, but firefox, chrome, and safari all stayed in proportion to each other
19:29:12 <ehird> i wondered why at the time, now it's obvious innit, chrome os
19:29:47 <ais523> someone mentioned that that was about the release of IE8; IE8 taking 8% from IE7 is sort-of believable, and it could be that something's messed up in typical IE8 detection
19:30:28 <ehird> yay we have lambdabot now
19:30:46 * ehird wonders why thutubot is mirroring lambdabot
19:30:57 <ehird> 16:32:24 <ais523> AnMaster: someone's /msging thutubot
19:31:07 <ehird> ais523: thutubot is misinterpreting lambdabot's response as a message I think
19:31:28 <ehird> /msg doesn't even do anything
19:31:39 <ehird> 16:37:15 <ais523> it's meant to send the message to lambdabot, then relay the response
19:31:40 <ehird> 16:37:18 <ais523> it's broken, though
19:31:41 <ais523> ehird: it wasn't that, we found the correct answer eventually
19:31:50 <ehird> ais523: remove it then, so it doesn't make using lambdabot annoying?
19:32:02 <ehird> after all, it is just a cheap joke
19:32:04 <thutubot> but msging thutubot with instructions does reply to #esoteric
19:32:55 <ehird> 02:04:22 <AnMaster> So basically you can't use it where there is no internet connection I guess
19:32:55 <ehird> 02:07:15 <AnMaster> oklodol, yes right, but what if you are traveling and there happen to be no public wlan where you are or such.
19:33:05 <ehird> yeaaaaah in a few years everyone will have mobile broadband.
19:33:20 <ehird> designing something to account for people without the net is stupid, although I'm no fan of the cloud
19:34:09 <ais523> ehird: I don't even have a regular mobile phone
19:34:19 <ehird> ais523: mobile broadband has nothing to do with mobiles
19:34:24 <ehird> apart from usually being over the same network
19:34:31 <ais523> ehird: and both costing insanely large amounts of money
19:34:45 <ehird> ais523: you have a queer definition of insane
19:34:58 <ehird> it's some pounds a month
19:35:56 <ehird> 02:27:18 <fizzie> "EDGE can carry data speeds up to 236.8 kbit/s --" though that's very much a theoretical thing only.
19:36:04 <ehird> EDGE can carry 236kbits my ass.
19:36:07 <ehird> It's a bit better than dialup.
19:36:41 <ehird> 02:37:06 <AnMaster> protected area of nature, you aren't allowed to do basically anything that can change it with some exceptions.
19:36:46 <ehird> so nobody can walk in them?
19:36:58 <ehird> and it has to be stored at 0K
19:37:04 <ehird> damn you chaos theory! DAMN YOU ENTROPY!
19:37:32 <ehird> 02:53:26 <ais523> no, I don't normally have the focus to logread
19:37:36 <ehird> there was something about something
19:37:40 <ehird> that i directed at you if you logread
19:37:50 <ehird> 11:50:31 <ehird> I wish ais523 logread.
19:37:50 <ehird> 11:50:36 <ehird> "One thing I found puzzling was that the Brits consistently apologized for and/or denigrated Birmingham."
19:37:52 <ehird> 11:50:41 <ehird> —Bruce Eckel, http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=261930
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19:38:54 <ehird> oklodol is so glio.
19:39:29 <ehird> 04:00:33 <fizzie> Hah; since GPRS is called "2.5G" by some, and not everyone counts EDGE as "3G" since it's so sucky, some people apparently seriously refer to EDGE as a "2.75G" technology.
19:39:43 <ehird> It's marginally better than 3G, but costs pi more moneys a month.
19:39:51 <ehird> oh, fizzie said that
19:39:55 <ehird> damn logs corruptin'
19:40:21 <oerjan> better than exponential corruption
19:40:29 <ehird> HURF HURF DURF TURF
19:40:46 * oerjan does the heimlich maneuver on ehird
19:40:55 <ehird> and you say you're not gay.
19:41:12 * oerjan wonders when he said that
19:41:41 <ehird> i should ask colin percival if i could get a bulk discount on tarsnap; i don't particularly feel like paying $696 a month if I feel like filling up my entire future 2.32TB harddrives with completely uncompressable, 100% random data
19:42:01 <ehird> PER BACKUP! PLUS BANDWIDTH!
19:42:04 <ehird> oh the huge manatee.
19:46:23 <oerjan> <ehird> designing something to account for people without the net is stupid, although I'm no fan of the cloud
19:46:39 <ehird> 19:46 oerjan: <ehird> designing something to account for people without the net is stupid, although I'm no fan of the cloud
19:46:40 <oerjan> you should account for temporary net loss, certainly
19:47:07 <ehird> it's not unthinkable that in ten years, an area without internet would be considered dangerous
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19:48:18 <oerjan> few minutes? when someone dug into a cable in this neighborhood it certainly took more than a few minutes to fix it...
19:48:53 <oerjan> (i assume they dug into a cable, someone was digging on the main road and internet disappeared, 2+2)
19:49:15 <ehird> we're more and more dependent on the interwebs. i truly think in a few years that long internet outages will become an unacceptable inconvenience and in a few more it'll be serious
19:49:44 <ehird> oerjan: pseudo-analogy: it takes more than a few minutes to fix cut power to a city, too.
19:50:02 <ehird> does that mean we should design everything around not having power?
19:50:21 <pikhq> ehird: ... They're acceptable now?
19:50:55 <ehird> pikhq: if all else fails, I'm sure we can send our packets up INTO SPACE
19:51:01 <ehird> HAVE YOU HEARD, PIKHQ HAS SATELLITE INTERNET! IN SPACE!
19:51:20 <oerjan> of course _big_ telecom disconnects get fixed fast. my father who is a telecom engineer tells me the contracts include some hefty fines...
19:51:30 <ais523> ehird: netbooks are partly desired because of their long battery life
19:51:35 <ais523> which means, they are designed around not having power
19:51:41 <ehird> ais523: no they're not
19:51:45 <ehird> they're designed around having portable power
19:52:03 <ehird> guess what mobile internet-based devices are designed around?
19:52:05 <ehird> having portable internet.
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19:52:45 <ehird> portable inurinternet.
19:54:58 <oerjan> ais523: has anyone told graue about the undeletable spam?
19:55:28 <oerjan> (should that be undeletable or undeleteable?)
19:55:42 <oerjan> ehird: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:454_buy_viagra
19:55:50 <ehird> oerjan: how's it undeletable
19:56:05 <ais523> ehird: graue put up a spam filter against that sort of thing
19:56:13 <oerjan> any attempt to edit or delete it triggers the spam filter :D
19:56:17 <ais523> which means that nobody, not even admins, can do anything even referencing the page
19:56:24 <ehird> i might have some ideas
19:56:38 <ehird> ais523: mediawiki has an XML-RPC interface doesn't it?
19:56:46 <ais523> ehird: yes, but it isn't enabled on Esolang
19:57:13 <ehird> can i say, btw, that the spam filter is shit anyway?
19:57:16 <ehird> it never stops any spam.
19:57:39 <ehird> ais523: are any of the other APIs enabled?
19:57:58 <oerjan> how is the url escaping of characters again?
19:58:03 <ais523> not as far as I can tell; the one in core is disabled, and all the others are uninstalled extensions
19:58:03 <ehird> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:454_buy_viagra?action=edit§ion=55
19:58:06 <ehird> ais523: you can edit it
19:58:07 <ais523> oerjan: %hex, 2 digits
19:58:07 <ehird> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:454_buy_viagra?action=edit§ion=55
19:58:10 <ehird> just have to add a new section
19:58:22 <ais523> and saving comes to the same thing
19:58:35 <ais523> my guess is the filter blocks POST but not GET
19:58:39 <ais523> or maybe, a bit of both
19:58:47 <ais523> but it seems to block POST consistently, and GET only sometimes
19:58:48 <ehird> we should really move esolang off that crappy server with the crappy category policy. :P
19:58:55 <ehird> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:454_buy_viagra doesn't load any more
19:59:08 <ehird> now it works but without c ss
19:59:43 <oerjan> the save removed the escape too
19:59:49 <ehird> ais523: what actions can you do to pages again?
19:59:58 <oerjan> ehird: yeah i've seen that css thing
20:00:02 <ais523> off the top of my head, view raw edit delete protect
20:00:08 <ehird> can you protect it
20:00:11 <ais523> probably a few more I've forgotten
20:00:19 <ais523> and I haven't tried protecting it, although that would be rather ridiculous
20:00:33 <ehird> just try it, hitting buttons won't do any harm at least
20:01:05 <ais523> ehird: nope, same problem
20:01:12 <ais523> in fact, I can't follow any of the links from the protect page
20:01:14 <ehird> worst case, we lose a few copies of definitions, some literature on them, and a bunch of useless languages :D
20:01:18 <ais523> the referrer seems to be blocking things
20:01:24 <ehird> i was about to say that
20:01:29 <ehird> ais523: make a POST to delete it without any referer
20:01:34 <ehird> use a referer blocker or curl or something
20:01:46 <ais523> let's see if I can find a referer blocker Firefox extension
20:02:04 <ehird> ais523: it'd be easier just to use curl imo
20:02:21 <ehird> ais523: http://cafe.elharo.com/privacy/privacy-tip-3-block-referer-headers-in-firefox/
20:02:28 <ehird> just set network.http.sendRefererHeader to 0
20:02:31 <ehird> assuming it's not out of date
20:02:48 <ais523> ehird: referers are helpful on certain other sites, though
20:02:53 <ehird> ais523: so turn it off afterwards
20:02:55 <ais523> a couple of my user scripts rely on them, for instance
20:02:56 <ehird> it is a one time thing...
20:03:12 <ais523> but a referer-blocker will be useful, esolang blocks all sorts of random referers for no good reason
20:04:56 <ais523> "User:454 buy viagra" has been deleted. See deletion log for a record of recent deletions.
20:05:15 <ehird> Precondition Failed
20:05:15 <ehird> The precondition on the request for the URL /wiki/Special:Recentchanges evaluated to false.
20:05:34 <ehird> that was just cuz i came from viagra
20:05:36 <ehird> errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
20:05:49 <ais523> I don't have the perms to remove a deletion log entry
20:06:06 <ehird> refreshing fixed i
20:06:19 <ehird> i think it's mod_security that's fucking up this stuff
20:06:24 <ehird> i remember on my old shared hosting
20:06:25 <ais523> what does mod_security do?
20:06:28 <ehird> you couldn't submit a form saying "Perl"
20:06:38 <ehird> because perl is sometimes used for programs which you could be attempting to inject, I think
20:06:47 <ehird> on the wiki I had I did P(bold, unbold)erl
20:06:51 <ehird> ais523: break things.
20:06:57 <ehird> in a feeble attempt at securing you.
20:07:03 <ais523> ehird: learn the <nowiki/> tag
20:07:12 <ehird> ais523: it wasn't mediawiki.
20:07:26 <ais523> it's a neat no-op, it does the same thing as space in Perl or @ in Cyclexa
20:07:49 <ais523> Cyclexa doesn't have an unspace to cancel it out, though, unless you're putting antitext in the original program
20:08:00 <ais523> ehird: /**/ is equivalent to space by definition, at least in C
20:08:03 <ehird> pikhq: it filtered html out
20:08:12 <ehird> ais523: well, yes, but <nowiki/> is /**/
20:08:17 * oerjan bounces around in celebration
20:08:22 <pikhq> ehird: ... But not <b />?
20:08:36 <ehird> pikhq: (bold, unbold) is <b/>?
20:08:40 <ais523> pikhq: I'm guessing it was BBcode, which is not XML-like apart from having matching tags
20:08:45 <ais523> ehird: yes in XML, no in HTML
20:08:48 <ehird> it was like '''' or something
20:09:01 <oerjan> <ehird> reword that <-- no, let's not do that :D
20:09:03 <ehird> ais523: I meant, I never said <b/>
20:09:17 <ehird> ais523: it was bbcode, it turns out
20:09:35 <ehird> well, it links with [[foo]] for both external and internal, so not quite bbcode
20:09:43 <pikhq> That's pretty dumb.
20:10:27 <ehird> [[foo]] was just stolen from mediawiki because it's convenient, the rest was bbcode.
20:10:29 <ehird> i didn't make the software.
20:10:41 <ehird> ais523: why did wikipedia's nocover graphic change?
20:10:46 <ehird> licensing issues with a picture of a bloody cd case?
20:11:26 <ais523> ehird: I don't know the truth, although I'm guessing it's more likely an aesthetics edit war than licensing issues
20:11:40 <ais523> check the image history, it shouldn't be too hard to find
20:11:59 <ehird> ais523: it's a separate file; it'll be in the template
20:12:06 <ehird> ais523: but can you seriously argue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nocover.svg looks nicer than the older one?
20:12:23 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nocover.png
20:12:38 <ais523> ok, maybe it's an image format row
20:13:15 <ehird> wikipedia is so hopeless
20:14:06 <ais523> I've seen what happened
20:14:19 <ais523> it is related to licensing issues, but not the ones you're thinking of
20:14:38 <ehird> Hopeless. Hopeless!
20:14:41 <ais523> basically, there were some rows that the "please upload a cover" image was turning up in cases where it was known that there were no free/fairable covers
20:14:53 <ehird> ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS
20:14:55 <ais523> so it was decided to leave the album cover section out altogether by default
20:15:07 <ais523> now, it's been added back in on many pages
20:15:17 <ais523> but people are just specifying nocover.svg by hand, guessing the extension
20:15:24 <ais523> there are probably lots of others that use nocover.png
20:15:35 <ehird> wow, are you serious?
20:15:37 <ais523> it's a case of the template not specifying an image, so people have to guess
20:15:43 <ehird> what a load of bollocks
20:16:09 <ehird> i remember when you could use fair use images on the main page
20:16:12 <ehird> a good era that was
20:16:20 <ais523> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_Album&diff=196909019&oldid=192528717
20:16:40 <ehird> ais523: has it occurred to them to add a parameter |shownocover=no for those RARE cases?
20:16:46 <ehird> no. don't answer. obviously not.
20:16:59 <ehird> complete failure of rational thinking detected.
20:17:45 <ehird> ais523: ...answer. I'm curious.
20:18:39 <ais523> ehird: you'd get people shouting that it was nonstandardised if you did that
20:18:49 <ais523> (N.B. I am well aware of the contradictions involved here)
20:19:11 <ehird> do you think the court might make an exception for me if I give every one of these people a lobotomy?
20:19:15 <ehird> hypothetically, of course.
20:20:11 <pikhq> No jury would convict.
20:20:38 * ehird sees someone using #NUMBEROFEDITS-mod-N as a random number generator on wikipedia
20:20:47 <ehird> it's fast-paced enough that it could actually work...
20:21:59 <ehird> it seems to be part of #expr
20:24:20 <ehird> ais523: "It is the very first time Microsofts monopoly over desktop computer OS market is seriously being challenged"
20:24:47 <ehird> pay no attention to the >10% market share in the corner.
20:31:00 <ehird> ais523: btw, the next firefox release (or whatever) will parse all html pages with the html 5 parser [you're highlighted because i last highlighted you and i remember you testing ubuntu releases]
20:31:06 <ehird> [tangential i know]
20:31:26 <ais523> ehird: it's backwards-compatible enough that it ought to work
20:31:36 <ais523> and I'll use Firefox 3.5 when it gets into ubuntu-proposed
20:31:42 <ehird> no, not firefox 3.5, I think
20:31:47 <ais523> because I'm not in the mood for fiddling with repos right now
20:31:54 <ehird> or maybe not, who knows?
20:32:00 <ehird> it's about:config in the nightlies, anyway
20:32:09 <ais523> I'll use that one when it gets to ubuntu-proposed too, if I'm still using that then
20:32:29 <ehird> http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-parsing/
20:32:48 <ehird> ais523: nightly + set html5.enable to true, accurate as of yesterday
20:33:17 <ais523> ehird: I don't use nightlies of anything but TAEB and C-INTERCAL
20:33:37 <ais523> also, cfunge sometimes, but I hardly ever update that
20:33:46 <ehird> don't say that, AnMaster will get angry
20:33:53 <ais523> and because I don't see the need, nightlies just change /too/ quickly for me
20:34:00 <ais523> and half the time I don't have an internet connection anyway
20:34:10 <AnMaster> ehird, why would that make me angry?
20:34:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you're always telling people to update cfunge or you'll go "la la la"
20:34:47 <ehird> ais523: oh, and a WTF from that article about the new parser: it's automatically translated from Java to C++
20:34:51 <AnMaster> ehird, about bugs yeah, it is a bit pointless to fix a bug that is already fixed in last version.
20:34:53 <ehird> because it comes from the validator.nu HTML5 parser
20:35:01 <ehird> they hand-wrote a Java→C++ translator just for it
20:35:08 <ehird> ais523: and the end result? 3% faster rendering. from translated java.
20:35:37 <ais523> although is the Java → C++ translator still around/
20:35:40 <ais523> it could come in useful
20:35:43 <ehird> ais523: speed isn't the point; the point is that machine translating java to C++ somehow sped up hand-written C++ code
20:35:47 <ehird> and yes, but I think it's tailored just for the project
20:35:48 <AnMaster> ehird, every project tends to tell users to use last version when reporting a bug. Since often it is already fixed.
20:35:50 <ehird> they're going to keep it in-sync
20:36:11 <pikhq> Well, HTML5 parsing shouldn't break anything.
20:36:17 <ais523> AnMaster: I prefer people to report bugs in future versions before I've written them, to save me the testing trouble
20:36:21 <AnMaster> um. Why would auto-translated C++ be faster than hand written?
20:36:24 <ehird> ais523: it still has System.out.printnl and @Foo, i think they just make classes and #define stuff
20:36:28 <ehird> AnMaster: because the parser is different
20:36:37 <ehird> the point is that you'd think translating Java to C++ would result in non-optimal code
20:36:46 <pikhq> After all, most of the HTML5 parsing rules say exactly how you should parse malformed HTML.
20:36:55 <AnMaster> ehird, in theory you could hand write code equivalent of the converted one. Note "in theory".
20:37:20 <AnMaster> (of course it might be practically infeasible, but since when have we cared about that in this channel)
20:37:30 * ehird dls firefox-3.6a1pre.en-US.mac.dmg
20:37:33 <ehird> AnMaster: the C++ is human-readable
20:37:46 <ehird> i'm just saying that you'd expect the mismapping semantics to incur a performance penalty in general
20:37:51 <AnMaster> nothing like that generated by lex or yacc then
20:37:55 <ehird> so it's a surprise it ends up faster than the previous parser
20:38:00 <ehird> AnMaster: i doubt it works on all java code
20:38:08 <ehird> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/8b5103cb12a6
20:38:11 <AnMaster> which is, (theoretically) human readable. But in practise not.
20:38:37 <ehird> it just looks like very boring, java-like C++ with some odd stuff that's #define'd away
20:38:52 <ehird> oh, and using the Java stdlib
20:38:54 <ehird> instead of the C++ one
20:39:04 <pikhq> Which isn't hard to do with gcj.
20:39:11 <AnMaster> why not just compile the java to native code directly
20:39:30 <ehird> AnMaster: because that (a) introduces a dependency on the system having a classpath (java stdlib implementation)
20:39:32 <pikhq> (gcj treats Java as a language with C++-like calling conventions, after all...)
20:39:38 <ehird> and (b) you can't call it easily from C++, prolly
20:39:43 <ehird> and (c) probably a bit slower, maybe.
20:40:00 <pikhq> ehird: Gcj-compiled Java is easy to call from C++.
20:40:03 <ais523> I like GCJ for the way it annoys Java purists
20:40:10 <ehird> but (a) is still the important thing
20:40:15 <AnMaster> but (d) it will probably crash less. Assuming gcj is managed and does bounds checks and so on.
20:40:23 <ehird> AnMaster: C++ can be managed.
20:40:38 <ehird> And since java's semantics don't map to C++, there'll be a library layer.
20:40:40 <ehird> Which is almost certainly managed.
20:40:45 <pikhq> GCJ-compiled Java can just about be called directly from C++.
20:40:48 <ehird> AnMaster: remember that any code that's good C is bad style in C++
20:41:01 <pikhq> (you have to include a GCJ library for the Java datatypes)
20:41:30 <ehird> pikhq: they're not going to introduce a compile-time dependency on gcj and they're not going to introduce a run-time dependency over gcj's runtime library
20:41:35 <AnMaster> can't you use gcj with something like -freestanding
20:41:37 <ehird> this is probably the sanest way to do it as far as mozille goes
20:41:42 <ehird> AnMaster: the code uses java libs
20:41:47 <ehird> it is not mozilla-specific
20:41:57 <pikhq> ehird: I strongly suspect they already have a compile-time dependency on gcj.
20:42:08 <ehird> pikhq: o rly? the translator doesn't use gcj
20:42:09 <AnMaster> ehird, does this C++ code use a GC?
20:42:11 <ehird> and the pre-translated source is in-tree
20:42:18 <ehird> AnMaster: mozilla uses refcounting.
20:42:26 <ehird> (which is btw horrific)
20:42:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought mozilla was some mix of various in different parts?
20:42:49 <AnMaster> somewhat like memory management in GCC
20:42:51 <ehird> but it will be refcounted
20:43:07 * ehird replaces Minefield's unbelievably ugly icon with Firefox's
20:43:21 <ehird> IT'S THE GLOBE WITH A CHEESY BOMB LOL
20:43:33 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm going to assume a fuckin' html 5 parser won't generate cyclic structures
20:43:42 <pikhq> ehird: It has an optional build-time dependency on a Java compiler.
20:44:06 <ehird> pikhq: keyword optional. but why?
20:44:14 <ehird> oh god, firefox's new logo is ugly
20:44:21 <ehird> the bits on the tail jus tlook all wrong
20:44:25 <ehird> and the bit at the bottom looks like bad rescaling
20:45:06 <ehird> http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/shiretoko/firefoxIcon/firefox-64-noshadow.png
20:46:25 <AnMaster> is refcounting ever a good idea for memory management? I guess there could be some specific cases...
20:47:37 <fizzie> A HTML parser can easily generate cyclic structures, if you want to have something like a DOM tree where you can go from an arbitrary node to its parent, and back.
20:48:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: If you don't have cyclic structures, it's not merely good, it's great.
20:52:17 <fizzie> I'm not sure how incredibly great it is; there's a reasonable amount of work done for the reference-counting. Of course it's a tiny thing, but with some other GC styles you don't have to collect things very often either. But this is all just gut-feeling talk, I'm sure there's actual well-researched material written about this.
20:53:06 <ais523> <jeffb> (I note that the "process" of Slashdot incremental improvement has now reached a point where clicking anywhere in the text-entry box causes the box to LOSE focus. If you don't want us using Safari, there are more efficient ways to get us to move.)
20:53:14 <ais523> wow, Slashdot's UI gets worse by the day
20:53:18 <ehird> Doing something now is always worse than doing something later, performance-wise .
20:53:37 <AnMaster> iirc python uses refcounting, that doesn't make sense though, unless it somehow can guarantee that the no cycles happen...
20:54:03 <ehird> AnMaster: it has a gc for cycles.
20:54:29 <fizzie> Perl uses refcounting too, and it just relies on the user to manually break cycles if they care enough. Though there's also a mark-and-sweep GC step done when the interpreter is being destroyed or something.
20:54:33 <AnMaster> ehird, um. how does that work??
20:54:35 <pikhq> The reference counting is just an optimisation to make the garbage collector's work easier.
20:54:52 <ehird> AnMaster: by confusing you.
20:55:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, interpreter being destroyed == /usr/bin/perl exiting? If so it seems a bit pointless.
20:55:27 <ehird> AnMaster: perl is more than perl(1).
20:55:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's for programs that embed a Perl interpreter for scripting purposes and such.
20:55:33 <ehird> it's a Perl interpreter library.
20:55:34 <ais523> AnMaster: thread ending also causes that
20:55:40 <ais523> in addition to what ehird's talking about
20:55:49 <ais523> and it matters due to DESTROY hooks even with one thread and no embedding
20:55:50 <ehird> oh jesus, firefox right-click menus still don't have curved edges like everything else because FIREFOX ON MAC DEVELOPERS HAVE NO BRAIN
20:56:30 <pikhq> Why can't they just do what Qt does and use native widgets?
20:56:37 <ehird> pikhq: also the title/toolbar gradient still goes dark, light, dark
20:56:40 <ehird> also, qt fails on os x too
20:56:49 <ehird> there's something about the platform that causes everyone to lose their attention to detail
20:56:53 <ehird> i think it's the obnoxious users.
20:57:02 <ehird> pikhq: (as opposed to light, dark as normal os x)
20:57:08 <pikhq> That's because its OS X support is technically still a WIP.
20:57:15 <ehird> seriously, the time it took them to fake it with XUL? could have written a native cocoa interface.
20:57:43 <ehird> firefox's html5 parser seems to work great
20:57:56 <pikhq> Better than what they used to do; Qt used to just draw native-looking widgets.
20:58:06 <ehird> pikhq: well that's the last time i used qt
20:58:08 <ehird> might be better now
20:58:56 <pikhq> Qt 4 renders with native widgets whenever possible.
20:59:22 <ehird> hey, now I'm using firefox I can... notice that its font-rendering still looks totally nonnative and ugly on a lot of stuff.
20:59:36 <ehird> now i have to decide if it was worth that.
20:59:48 <ais523> ehird: but... Theora vs. h264
21:00:05 <ais523> Firefox on Mac OS X is in rather a weird place in that particular battle
21:00:14 <ehird> ais523: YOU SHOULD USE THEORA BECAUSE IF YOU USE THEORA THERE'S ABOUT A 30% CHANCE PEOPLE WON'T SUE YOU (DOWN FROM 0.01%)
21:00:19 <ehird> IF IT LOOKS BAD DRINK A FEW BEERS!
21:00:52 <ehird> "You need the latest beta version of Firefox to view this demo!" —dailymotion.com's HTML 5 video test page
21:01:02 <ehird> i guess they removed it from the latest nightlies huh!
21:01:08 <ehird> oh, you mean they're sniffing versions?
21:01:09 <ais523> ehird: it's dailymotion is checking for a specific useragent string
21:01:14 <ehird> I was being sarcastic
21:01:17 <ais523> rather than using fallback like you're supposed to
21:01:36 * ehird tries a MathML test page; surely this will work?
21:01:40 <ais523> and acid3 tested fallback for <object> IIRC, so fallback for <video> may work as well
21:01:49 <ehird> wow the text rendering is so ugly.
21:02:26 <pikhq> Yes, fallback for <video> works.
21:03:03 <ehird> ok, that's some seriously bad copy-paste behaviour
21:03:05 <ehird> for some notation that renderd as Bi(italics x)
21:03:07 <ais523> something went very wrong with that paste
21:03:17 <ehird> ais523: the source is:
21:03:19 <ehird> <math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'>
21:03:34 <ehird> tl;dr browsers still don't get that you can't just convert shit to text to copy-paste it.
21:04:17 <ehird> wow, mathml doesn't have good spacing and text-sizing by default
21:04:30 <ehird> you'd think they'd not expect you to make a massive stylesheet just to get standard mathematical notation
21:04:33 <ehird> AnMaster: firefox nightly
21:04:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection reset by peer).
21:05:05 <ehird> data:text/xml;charset=utf-8,<math xmlns%3D'http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1998%2FMath%2FMathML'>%0D%0A <mrow>%0D%0A <munderover>%0D%0A <mo>%26%238721%3B<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <mrow>%0D%0A <mi>m<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <mo>%3D<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <mn>1<%2Fmn>%0D%0A <%2Fmrow>%0D%0A <mn>3<%2Fmn>%0D%0A <%2Fmunderover>%0D%0A <mrow>%0D%0A <munderover>%0D%0A <mo>%26%238721%3B<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <mrow>%0D%0A <mi>n<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <mo>%3D<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <mn>1<%2Fmn>
21:05:07 <ehird> %0D%0A <%2Fmrow>%0D%0A <mi>m<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <%2Fmunderover>%0D%0A <mrow>%0D%0A <mi>sin<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <mo>%26%238289%3B<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <mo>(<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <mrow>%0D%0A <msup>%0D%0A <mi>x<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <mi>m<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <%2Fmsup>%0D%0A <mo>%2B<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <msup>%0D%0A <mi>y<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <mi>n<%2Fmi>%0D%0A <%2Fmsup>%0D%0A <%2Fmrow>%0D%0A <mo>)<%2Fmo>%0D%0A <%2Fmrow>%0D%0A <%2Fmrow>%0D%0A <%2F
21:05:12 <ehird> mrow>%0D%0A<%2Fmath>
21:05:22 <ehird> ↑ the sum symbol should be bigger
21:05:26 <ehird> and there should be spacing between the two sums
21:05:31 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing is.
21:05:39 <ehird> hmm depending on whitespace w/ irc sounds bad
21:05:42 <AnMaster> ehird, um... Python is even LL(1)
21:05:51 <ehird> AnMaster: python is adamantly simple to parse
21:05:55 <ehird> extensions are rejected because they break it
21:05:58 <ehird> data:text/xml;charset=utf-8;base64,PG1hdGggeG1sbnM9J2h0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnLzE5OTgvTWF0aC9NYXRoTUwnPg0KIDxtcm93Pg0KICA8bXVuZGVyb3Zlcj4NCiAgIDxtbz4mIzg3MjE7PC9tbz4NCiAgIDxtcm93Pg0KICAgIDxtaT5tPC9taT4NCiAgICA8bW8%2BPTwvbW8%2BDQogICAgPG1uPjE8L21uPg0KICAgPC9tcm93Pg0KICAgPG1uPjM8L21uPg0KICA8L211bmRlcm92ZXI%2BDQogIDxtcm93Pg0KICAgPG11bmRlcm92ZXI%2BDQogICAgPG1vPiYjODcyMTs8L21vPg0KICAgIDxtcm93Pg0KICAgICA8bWk%2BbjwvbWk%2BDQogICAgIDxtbz49PC9tbz4NCiAgICAgPG1uPjE8L21
21:06:00 <ehird> uPg0KICAgIDwvbXJvdz4NCiAgICA8bWk%2BbTwvbWk%2BDQogICA8L211bmRlcm92ZXI%2BDQogICA8bXJvdz4NCiAgICA8bWk%2Bc2luPC9taT4NCiAgICA8bW8%2BJiM4Mjg5OzwvbW8%2BDQogICAgPG1vPig8L21vPg0KICAgIDxtcm93Pg0KICAgICA8bXN1cD4NCiAgICAgIDxtaT54PC9taT4NCiAgICAgIDxtaT5tPC9taT4NCiAgICAgPC9tc3VwPg0KICAgICA8bW8%2BKzwvbW8%2BDQogICAgIDxtc3VwPg0KICAgICAgPG1pPnk8L21pPg0KICAgICAgPG1pPm48L21pPg0KICAgICA8L21zdXA%2BDQogICAgPC9tcm93Pg0KICAgIDxtbz4pPC9tbz4NCiAgIDwvbXJvdz4NCiAgPC9tcm93Pg0KIDwvbXJ
21:06:05 <ehird> vdz4NCjwvbWF0aD4%3D
21:06:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. Anyway saying nothing is LR(1) seems a bit wrong
21:06:22 <ehird> look up "hyperbole"
21:07:08 <ais523> the whitespace would definitely need to be preprocessed first, in both Python and Haskell
21:07:20 <ehird> ais523: the lexer does that in python
21:07:26 <ehird> INDENT / DEDENT tokens
21:07:41 <ais523> so internally Python does have braces, it just doesn't let people use them
21:08:23 <ehird> bah, mathml is uselessly ugly in ff
21:08:34 <ehird> the sqrt sign can become disconnected from the top bar extending frmo it
21:08:37 <ehird> because it's just a border-top
21:08:56 <ehird> guess I'll go back to my original plan: convert $whatever to TeX, render as png
21:09:06 <ehird> set alt to $whatever
21:09:43 <ehird> oh, and to boot, mathml has two formats
21:09:47 <ehird> semantics and presentation
21:09:58 <ehird> and if you just have semantics, firefox ignores all the tags
21:10:09 <ehird> so you need semantics+presentation or presentation+semantics
21:10:12 <ehird> only the latter works in ff
21:10:16 <ehird> the former behaves like just semantics
21:10:21 <ehird> and so everything is repeated twice!
21:16:09 <ehird> AnMaster: have you got the computer modern unicode fonts installed? http://canopus.iacp.dvo.ru/~panov/cm-unicode/
21:16:42 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure. Since I have TexLive installed, I guess yes.
21:16:59 <ehird> AnMaster: texlive doesn't install system fonts i don't think
21:18:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: haskell's indentation sensitivity interacts with the parser in a more complicated way than python's, so you cannot even preprocess it.
21:18:58 <oerjan> so it's sort of like an LR(1) parser communicating both ways with indentation detection.
21:19:44 <oerjan> and that is in practice; the theoretical haskell definition has issues due to mixing operator precedence into this (that mixing will almost certainly be removed in the upcoming language revision)
21:20:14 <ehird> Latin Modern Roman, STIXNonUnicode, STIXSize1, STIXGeneral, Symbol, DejaVu Sans, Cambria Math
21:20:16 <ehird> it doesn't appear to work.
21:20:34 <oerjan> (no(?) haskell compiler actually implements operator precedence as the standard says)
21:20:58 <oerjan> (wrt the insane interaction with indentation)
21:21:42 <ehird> it disappoints me that firefox still sucks on os x.
21:25:32 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/FixityResolution
21:26:56 <ehird> > \x -> x == x == True
21:26:58 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Classes.==' [infix 4] and `GH...
21:26:58 <thutubot> cannot mix `GHC.Classes.==' [infix 4] and `GH...
21:27:04 <ehird> ais523: can you shut thutubot up plz
21:27:17 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
21:28:33 <oerjan> that wouldn't type correctly even if parsed strictly according to the standard
21:28:41 <ehird> but it's still amusing
21:29:18 <ehird> "general.config.obscure_value;13" — about:config
21:29:42 <ehird> "The general.config.obscure_value preference specifies how the configuration file is obscured. Firefox expects that each byte in the file will be rotated by the specified value. The default value is 13. If this value is left unchanged, then the configuration file must be encoded as ROT13. Autoconfig will fail if the cfg file is not encoded as specified by this preference. A value of 0 indicates that the file is unencoded-- i.e. it is unobscured plain tex
21:29:44 <ehird> t. It is recommended that you set this value to 0. (This will allow you to skip the encoding step in part 3.)"
21:30:19 <ehird> rot-13 is actually default
21:30:24 <ehird> now THERE'S a reason to use firefox!
21:30:27 <ais523> ok, the next question is: /why/ does Firefox have an option to rot13 the config file?
21:30:58 <ehird> ais523: to prevent grepping a large tree to find pseudo-sensitive data, presumably
21:31:02 <ehird> or for shits and giggles
21:31:12 <ehird> and to have a legit reason to include "general.config.obscure_value;13"
21:31:39 <ehird> if you copy an about:config entry it copies as tht
21:33:32 * ehird attempts to find a firefox extension that lets you view a page in the internet archive
21:34:04 <ehird> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2570 ← i'll have some of that please
21:34:24 <ehird> except it thinks it's for an older version
21:34:34 <ehird> mozilla.org, surely YOU don't force check user agent?
21:36:10 <ehird> yay, I can add it via another link
21:36:21 <ehird> Resurrect Pages 2.0.4 could not be installed because it is not compatible with Minefield 3.6a1pre.
21:36:30 * ehird installs nightly tester tools
21:37:33 <ehird> ais523: apparently the firefox nightlies are built with gcc3……………………………
21:37:54 <ehird> nightly tester tools tells me so
21:38:00 <ehird> prolly the official builds are too
21:38:05 <ehird> mozilla architecture sucks so much
21:38:21 <pikhq> Odd; I build Firefox with GCC 4.
21:38:39 <pikhq> I also build it linking against XULrunner, which Mozilla doesn't support, so... Go Gentoo!
21:39:23 <ehird> Go please-will-gecko-die-and-give-way-to-webkit!
21:39:51 <pikhq> Or-at-least-a-complete-rewrite-of-Gecko!
21:39:56 <ehird> Last Comment Bug 262173 - Firefox Icon Problem - new firefox icon appears to be giant red panda that is humping south america
21:39:56 <ehird> Summary: Firefox Icon Problem - new firefox icon appears to be giant red panda that is...
21:39:58 <ehird> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=262173
21:40:11 <pikhq> Oh, wait. That would be written by Firefox devs.
21:40:12 <ehird> pikhq: webkit + html5 parser + more html5 element support = yum
21:40:22 <SimonRC> I wonder where the old mozilla ican was hiding?
21:40:38 <pikhq> (or at least KHTML)
21:41:03 <ehird> pikhq: khtml? spoken like someone who's never used khtml for prolonged lengths of time!
21:41:12 <ehird> pikhq: btw you do know khtml is dead right?
21:41:29 <ehird> KDE is effectively switching/has switched to WebKit
21:41:32 <pikhq> Oh, KDE finally killed that and replaced it with QtWebkit?
21:41:37 <ehird> dunno if they have yet
21:41:41 <ehird> but they're certainly planning on it
21:41:48 <ehird> they might still call it KHTML but I doubt they'll change much
21:41:52 <pikhq> Makes sense; after all, WebKit is *part of Qt*.
21:42:09 <ehird> webkit also has a gtk backend, though
21:42:31 <ehird> konqueror doesn't really have any redeeming features imo
21:42:44 <ehird> as a unified object-munger it's ok
21:42:58 <ehird> In November 2007, the project announced that it had accomplished support for HTML 5 media features, allowing for embedded video to be natively rendered and script-controlled in WebKit.[15]
21:43:02 <ehird> oh, so it has all that
21:43:07 <ehird> guess it's just codec issues, not webkit
21:43:24 <ehird> SimonRC: with kparts and the uri stuff and shit, you can point konqueror at just about anything that can be described as a resource
21:43:29 <pikhq> Konqueror is strictly speaking not a web browser. It's just a shell for a bunch of KDE libraries.
21:43:42 <pikhq> It just so happens that you can use it as a web browser.
21:44:22 <SimonRC> ehird: so I can e.g. view a gif as a directory of pictures?
21:44:39 <SimonRC> or I can vaiew all the layers on a GIMP image?
21:44:44 <pikhq> Deewiant: Except with a significantly better design.
21:44:49 <ehird> SimonRC: no, it munges everything in the same way
21:44:54 <ehird> it's a viewer, mainly
21:45:07 <SimonRC> but I can read a zip file with it?
21:45:26 <ais523> even Firefox can read inside zipfiles
21:45:36 <ehird> konqueror's model isn't a good unified one
21:45:41 <pikhq> zip:///path/to/zip/
21:45:45 <ehird> you pretty much need the basic idea in an OS
21:45:56 <ehird> everything's an object, there aren't any applications, and you can munge and view it in various ways
21:45:59 <pikhq> The same URI works for all KDE apps.
21:46:12 <SimonRC> application stacks are thickening in two ways in these decades...
21:46:14 <pikhq> (unfortunately, KDE isn't OS-level, so that's not as nice as it could be)
21:46:22 <ehird> it's just too specific
21:46:31 <ehird> "you get to give us a URI and you get one way to view it"
21:46:41 <SimonRC> the web browser is turning into another layer, and virtualisation systems etc are turning into another full layer
21:46:46 <ehird> that's not "absolutely everything's an object and you can view and munge it and change this at runtime"
21:47:01 <ehird> what i'm describing is basically smalltalk
21:47:09 <ehird> smalltalk was damn good shit
21:47:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:47:19 <ehird> SimonRC: i'm talking about an os
21:47:23 <ehird> soooooooooooooooooo... no
21:47:52 <pikhq> Smalltalk: Objects done right.
21:48:15 <pikhq> (it is also the first time it was really done as a language feature, so it was first done right, and then other people fucked it up)
21:48:51 <ehird> given a large budget, lots and lots of of documentation material and a load of time and i'd be happy to code my ass off to make a next-generation smalltalk
21:48:55 <ehird> pikhq: smalltalk isn't a language
21:49:02 <ehird> the language is simplistic on purpose and entirely incidental
21:49:17 <ehird> smalltalk's an "environment"; which is what we call OSs without kernel code.
21:49:20 <ehird> (it was an OS originally.)
21:49:34 <SimonRC> ah, but will it run the thousands of essential legacy apps and games people want to use?
21:49:34 <pikhq> It's both a language and a runtime environment.
21:49:37 <ehird> the thing about a smalltalk os is that you have emacs basically built in
21:49:49 <ehird> SimonRC: fuck that shit! dual-boot windows like all of us gamers do.
21:50:00 <ehird> or just dammit i don't care if it's practical.
21:50:13 <ehird> pikhq: but the main thing is the OS. the language is so simple because it's not the important part.
21:50:28 <SimonRC> how about security? HOw do you stop any object fucking with stuff it oughtn't?
21:50:47 <SimonRC> actually, that might not be too hard
21:50:47 <ehird> SimonRC: capability-based security, which comes out to ubiquitous, highly-fine-grained, total sandboxing
21:50:57 <ehird> (and interestingly gives us an isomorphism for objects<->processes)
21:51:03 <pikhq> ehird: The language is still done right.
21:51:16 <SimonRC> ehird: who has already done it?
21:51:31 <ehird> SimonRC: buncha research OSs so obscure I can't even name 'em
21:51:39 <pikhq> SimonRC: ... This is all part of Smalltalk's design.
21:51:46 <ehird> capability security isn't
21:51:54 <pikhq> Trivial to add on, though.
21:52:00 <ehird> SimonRC: http://www.eros-os.org/
21:52:01 <SimonRC> ehird: ask the VPRI for help ;-)
21:52:05 <ehird> http://www.capros.org/
21:52:07 <ehird> http://www.coyotos.org/
21:52:17 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_programming_language
21:52:25 <ehird> SimonRC: coyotos is the reason for bitc
21:52:31 <ehird> or whatever that language is called
21:52:34 <ehird> c with scheme syntax, basically
21:52:53 <ehird> SimonRC: plash, that our EgoBot uses, is like primitive capabilities for linxu
21:53:21 <pikhq> I was looking for that.
21:53:31 <ehird> SimonRC: apparently the famous L4 microkernel does some sort of capability stuff as seL4
21:53:39 <ehird> pikhq: the main guy went to work for microsoft, on Singularity
21:53:57 <ehird> pikhq: a managed-code operating system, iirc based on .NET (pikhq explodes into rage)
21:54:24 <ehird> Midori is the code name for a managed code operating system being developed by Microsoft Research. It has been reported[1][2] to be a possible commercial implementation of the Singularity operating system, a research project started in 2003 to build a highly-dependable operating system in which the kernel, device drivers, and applications are all written in managed code. It was designed for concurrency, and can run applications in multiple places.[3]
21:54:26 <ehird> It also features an entirely new security model that sandboxes applications for increased security
21:54:31 <ehird> <pikhq> BUT YOU CAN'T USE MANAGED CODE FOR AN OS! IT'S EEEEEEEVIL!
21:55:02 <pikhq> I am highly tempted to swear off C.
21:55:13 <ehird> How did _that_ happen?
21:55:33 <pikhq> I tried programming in it again.
21:55:42 <ehird> Ah. That usually does it.
21:56:33 <pikhq> Also discovering that well-written Haskell was plenty speedy.
21:56:54 <SimonRC> there is an all-haskell OS caled House
21:56:55 <ehird> (Caveat: For most things.)
21:56:59 <ehird> SimonRC: he knows I think
21:57:02 <ehird> there's also Iron or whatever
21:57:37 <SimonRC> putting apps in managed code is a nice idea
21:58:02 <ehird> my problem with abolishing C is that writing a JIT compiler purely in assembly for a high level language is fucking tedious
21:58:12 <SimonRC> once the theorem prover has shown it is safe, you don't need to worry about security so much, so you can get a speed boost
21:58:35 <SimonRC> ehird: do you mean JIT-to-C?
21:58:36 <pikhq> Just not from Microsoft. Please, not from MS.
21:58:47 <ehird> SimonRC: jit to machine code
21:58:57 <ehird> as in, since we can't use C, we need to implement our high-level language
21:59:05 <ehird> since we're doing an OS, it needs to be fast
21:59:12 <ehird> since we're doing runtime-modification, it needs to be a JIT or similar
21:59:18 <ehird> since we can't use C…
21:59:27 <ehird> we have to write our fast JIT for our high-level language in assembly
21:59:34 <ehird> at this point, I get bored and go do something on an existing OS.
21:59:41 * SimonRC is not sure about that at all
21:59:52 <ehird> SimonRC: what's your alternative?
22:00:11 <SimonRC> first, Singularity allows unsafe managed code in some bits of the kernel...
22:00:24 <ehird> SimonRC: that's not really related to what I'm saying
22:00:33 <SimonRC> secondly, you can use bootstrapping
22:00:42 <ehird> SimonRC: i am wary of most bootstrapping.
22:00:50 <ehird> it scares me due to Reflections on Trusting Trust.
22:01:08 <ehird> i prefer the visible base case of another language as opposed to one sometime in the past when we made that binary
22:01:19 <ehird> SimonRC: i'm saying that, we've just booted up, initialized the gdt and shit
22:01:26 <ehird> we need to run our os code
22:01:29 <ehird> so we need our implementation
22:01:31 <ehird> and we can't use C
22:01:41 <ehird> so we gotta write our awesome, fast implementation of our nice language... in assembly.
22:01:45 <ehird> without even libc.
22:01:51 <ehird> just us, here. on the bare metal.
22:02:17 <SimonRC> um, why couldn't the assembly be assembled from a HLL?
22:02:27 <SimonRC> at the time that the boot image is created
22:03:01 <ehird> SimonRC: which? all ones other than the one we invented for the purpose suck, and do we really want to introduce a build dependency on a conventional OS?
22:03:08 <ehird> if we don't want to introduce that dependency, and allow building on our OS,
22:03:11 <ehird> we have to implement it TWICE
22:03:13 <ehird> and maintain it TWICE
22:03:38 <ehird> SimonRC: so that people on non-this-OS systems can build it
22:03:58 <SimonRC> how does Linux get round this problem?
22:04:13 <ehird> SimonRC: by being a conventional os that works most the same as every other unix.
22:04:24 <ehird> allow me to consider that an unacceptable tradeoff...
22:04:48 <pikhq> Why can't the assembly be created from a HLL that's implemented in your nice language?
22:05:02 <ehird> because 22:01 ehird: i prefer the visible base case of another language as opposed to one sometime in the past when we made that binary
22:05:16 <ehird> the OS should be recreatable from the source and a conventional OS
22:05:53 <SimonRC> but once MS releases 1000000000 copies, it is a conventional OS
22:06:11 <SimonRC> plus, being writen for managed code will make the compiler quite portable
22:06:11 <pikhq> Say, use Haskell. Write a HLL in Haskell that targets asm, and write a runtime environment in that.
22:06:18 <ehird> SimonRC: i know, the popularity argument
22:06:22 <ehird> it's a way of getting away with it
22:06:23 <ehird> not a justification
22:06:40 <ehird> pikhq: my haskell os involved carefully writing non-consing haskell code to build up a memory allocation system
22:06:45 <ehird> (it didn't work; GHC always conses.)
22:06:52 <SimonRC> you like C because it has 1000 implementations then?
22:06:56 <pikhq> ehird: You actually tried writing one?
22:06:57 <ehird> SimonRC: who said I like C?
22:07:04 <ehird> pikhq: yeah... for about 50 lines.
22:07:19 <ehird> pikhq: i was obeying the "no C, no POSIX" rule
22:07:29 <ehird> so I couldn't use the extract-shit-from-your-system-to-make-ghc-binaries-work thing
22:07:32 <pikhq> Clearly, the runtime environment should be Brainfuck.
22:07:37 <ehird> well ok just enough POSIX to make ghc work
22:07:40 <ehird> and I didn't want to patch ghc like house
22:07:41 <pikhq> That's easy to implement in asm.
22:07:52 <ehird> so I had to write all the stuff ghc uses in asm and non-consing haskell
22:08:09 <ehird> SimonRC: cons = allocate
22:08:43 <ehird> SimonRC: (# it#, unsafeDoesntWork# (evenIfYou# +# addHashesAndUnsafeNessBangPatternsToEverything#) #)
22:08:45 <pikhq> ehird: Maybe use a different systems programming language?
22:08:51 <ehird> but you can get quite close
22:09:04 <ehird> pikhq: like what? i'd only use c due to ubiquity, the other systems programming languages suck because they're not high-level :P
22:09:20 <ehird> anyway, if I was gonna write a new-smalltalk-OS, I'd just use C
22:09:24 <ehird> for the base of the kernel
22:09:38 <ehird> get the gdts up and stuff, jump into the jit
22:10:01 <ehird> the problem is that I don't want to depend on C code at runtime, as such
22:10:10 <ehird> with a C JIT, you're always using C code while using the OS
22:10:16 <SimonRC> aren't JITs quite complicated programs? I expect MM will be a bugger
22:10:28 <ehird> SimonRC: they're not that complicated... but good ones are.
22:10:35 <ehird> memory management, welp, reserve a pool
22:10:43 <pikhq> ehird: C or write one yourself.
22:11:02 <ehird> the clear long-term solution is an asm jit
22:11:07 <ehird> but i'm just not masochistic enough :)
22:11:29 <ehird> SimonRC: it's bootstrapless and dependenciless
22:11:40 <SimonRC> ASM requires computer work to get executable code just like a HLL?
22:12:58 <SimonRC> there isn't much quantitative difference between asm and hll is there?
22:13:10 <SimonRC> except for eas of use and resource reqs
22:14:54 <pikhq> SimonRC: And that an assembler is trivial to implement.
22:15:19 <SimonRC> in that case it might be worth going for a Forth though
22:15:37 <SimonRC> which will make the assembler easier to implement too
22:15:38 <pikhq> Much nicer to write for.
22:25:46 <ehird> forths, meh, not close enough to the metal
22:26:38 <pikhq> You can peek and poke. how much closer do you want? :P
22:27:33 <pikhq> (yeah, yeah, that's about as silly as doing systems programming in BASIC)
22:28:05 <ehird> you can peek and poke via an interpreter
22:29:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:25:53 <lifthrasiir> anyone interested in this: http://cosmic.mearie.org/2009/07/tmax-window/ ?
23:26:47 <ehird> it looks like a very obscure company's rubbish nonsense vaporware, but I like reading in-depth about things that don't matter, so :D
23:27:32 <ehird> they like microkernels. why am i surprised?
23:28:19 <lifthrasiir> they also made own office suites and browser. duh.
23:28:58 <ehird> lifthrasiir: what's that in reply to?
23:29:51 <ehird> 23:28 lifthrasiir: they also made own office suites and browser. duh.
23:29:53 <ehird> what's the "duh" meaning?
23:29:56 <ehird> i don't see the contet
23:30:59 <lifthrasiir> as I wrote in the article (yes i wrote it) the *own* office suites and browser are based on oo.o and webkit respectively. :S
23:31:03 <ehird> "duh." as a statement normally means "obviously"
23:31:10 <ehird> lifthrasiir: i figured it was you from the domain
23:31:26 <lifthrasiir> as you saw domains like hg.mearie.org, reasonable.
23:31:42 <ehird> 23:30 Twey: Mr. Wing, sir, if you are listening: you have the I.Q. of a semolina pudding
23:31:42 <ehird> 23:30 Twey: And your homepage is full of <font> tags
23:31:44 <ehird> 23:31 Twey: I'm not sure which is the greater insult, but at least one is objectively true
23:33:14 <lifthrasiir> someone said "Office and Scoutor is good because OO.o and Webkit is good. and since Window is not good it cannot be a fake." lol.
23:34:49 <ehird> "# If TmaxSoft used Wine or ReactOS to meet the deadline, they should release its source code in same license. But there was an instance that TmaxSoft didn’t respect other’s copyright.6 Of course this would not be a problem if they wrote the code from scratch."
23:34:59 <ehird> isn't the korean software industry kind of full of knockoff copyright infringements?
23:35:06 <ehird> it just seems that way a lot
23:35:11 <ehird> ow, their UI is ugly
23:35:18 <ehird> windows 95 with an ugly paintjob on the borders
23:44:34 <ehird> [[ We are now building the perfect OS with UIs of Mac OS X, portability of Linux and compatibility with Windows.]]
23:44:42 <ehird> looking at their screenshot, somehow I doubt that on the UI front :)
23:44:57 <ehird> The official announcement was on July 7, 2009, in Grand Intercontinental Seoul. This was also the TmaxDay 2009, and entirely dedicated to Tmax Window, Office and Scoutor. The event took place in Grand Ballroom capable for 1,800 persons. But there were at least estimated 2,500–3,000 persons came to the event, so remaining people was watching big screen in the front of ballroom. Separate outdoor event was also scheduled but canceled due to rain.
23:45:02 <ehird> ok, talk about extravagant
23:45:51 * oerjan suggests the name HubrOS
23:46:14 <ehird> it can go with the KDE-running-on-JSMIPS project, MolassOS
23:46:43 <ehird> [[Word 2003 ran flawlessly but its splash screen was broken (failing to render copyright texts).]]
23:46:47 <ehird> lifthrasiir: sure that wasn't intentional? :D
23:48:08 <lifthrasiir> "Its user experience is modeled after Microsoft Windows due to its user friendliness, and microkernel is chosen for its high stability. (The presenter however also said that they are going to make another distinct user experience by the end of this year.)"
23:48:25 <ehird> windows is sooo user friendly
23:48:29 <ehird> i wonder where that myth came from.
23:48:55 <ehird> every tech literate and illiterate i've converted to ubuntu found it a breeze while windows confused or annoyed them
23:49:48 <lifthrasiir> ehird: if consider about Korean environment, Linux is not yet user friendly as there are full of English :p
23:50:11 <lifthrasiir> still i cannot agree on window's "user friendliness".
23:52:21 <ehird> First let’s view [Acid3 test page] with Internet Explorer. (Launches Internet Explorer 8) Okay, it failed with 12 [out of 100] points and… Shall we wait more? …Yes it scored 20. Then let’s view same page [with Scoutor]. (Launches Tmax Scoutor, and scores 98 out of 100) Oh… Let’s try once more. (Screen reloaded, in this time scores 99 out of 100) Ha, we made it to 99 points. (Applause)
23:52:37 <ehird> lifthrasiir: how the hell did they make the browser's rendering quality nondeterministic?!
23:52:48 <ehird> smoothness results aren't part of the score iirc
23:54:46 <ehird> "You see Flash-based video is played with Adobe Flash plugin."
23:54:51 <ehird> as opposed to playing them with unicorns
23:55:23 <ehird> "I remind that the female [after the computer]"
23:55:36 <ehird> lifthrasiir: does that sound as objectifying as "the female" does in english? :-D
23:58:09 <ehird> "Eh, the balance is only 100 won, it was originally much but it seems all drawn." ← 7 cents, this company is rich :D
23:58:59 <ehird> lifthrasiir: are living costs lower in kr?
23:59:11 <ehird> i mean i can't imagine anyone saying "we only have 7 cents here"
23:59:14 <ehird> vs "oh, it's empty"
00:01:17 <ehird> "Many says “there are only weekdays, no weekends in TmaxSoft”11, but I recall that Apple also did so when it’s designing iPod. From today Tmax Window development team is given the vacation for a week… 07–08 04:xx PM?"
00:01:18 <ehird> how lucky they are!
00:08:37 <lifthrasiir> ehird: well, acid3 test score can vary. once firefox suffered from same problem.
00:08:57 <lifthrasiir> and i wonder what web standard has to be sacrificed even in standard mode...
00:09:43 <lifthrasiir> ehird: 100 won thing is just joking. they presumbly made new account just for demonstration.
00:10:14 <ehird> lifthrasiir: btw acid 3 depends on certain handling of INVALID code
00:10:21 <ehird> so it's rubbish for measuring standards compliance
00:10:48 <pikhq> Except maybe HTML5 compliance.
00:10:55 <pikhq> (which specifies how you should parse invalid code)
00:11:05 <ehird> Nah, that's just informative
00:11:12 <ehird> HTML 5 can't regulate invalid HTML 5, that's ridiculous.
00:11:22 <ehird> Just like XML can't regulate how you handle invalid XML documents even though it claims to.
00:12:06 <lifthrasiir> ehird: while it also deals with invalid code, animation part of acid3 can be used for such.
00:12:57 <lifthrasiir> but anyway it is stupid to claim "good standard support" just with acid tests
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00:58:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> First let’s view [Acid3 test page] with Internet Explorer. (Launches Internet Explorer 8) Okay, it failed with 12 [out of 100] points and… Shall we wait more? …Yes it scored 20. Then let’s view same page [with Scoutor]. (Launches Tmax Scoutor, and scores 98 out of 100) Oh… Let’s try once more. (Screen reloaded, in this time scores 99 out of 100) Ha, we made it to 99 points. (Ap
00:58:58 <AnMaster> plause) <-- where is that quote from?
00:59:11 <ehird> lifthrasiir's article http://cosmic.mearie.org/2009/07/tmax-window/
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01:06:52 <sgeo> I lost my only reason to use Windows as my primary OS
01:07:41 <ehird> sgeo: You mean masochism?
01:08:30 <sgeo> VirtualBox is working on 3D support :D
01:09:02 <ehird> sgeo: s/is working on/has working/.
01:09:11 <ehird> Note that it will never be as fast as a full Windows bootup.
01:09:25 <sgeo> Isn't Direct3D experimentally supported or something?
01:09:52 <ehird> sgeo: the rest of the devices are still virtualized
01:12:27 <ehird> yes. nothing will come of it though.
01:13:45 <AnMaster> does 3D in virtualbox require hardware virtualization?
01:13:51 <ehird> AnMaster: it's impressive that it runs big windows programs better than wine and reactos though. especially with such a timescale.
01:13:58 <ehird> also, i think you just install a driver
01:14:06 <ehird> that talks to the host's driver
01:14:14 <ehird> of course you have to bridge it via the vm
01:14:23 <ehird> but that's a tiny overhead
01:15:02 <sgeo> ...faster than ReactOS? How?
01:15:13 <sgeo> Does ReactOS suck or something?
01:15:26 <ehird> It runs IE and Word with only minor glitches.
01:15:29 <ehird> ReactOS cannot do that.
01:15:36 <ehird> But yes, ReactOS sucks; so much time, so little results.
01:15:50 <sgeo> ...glitches? In a VM?
01:15:55 <AnMaster> does reactos reuse code from wine and vice verse?
01:16:08 <ehird> sgeo: I'm talking not of VirtualBox, silly.
01:16:13 <ehird> I am talking of tmax.
01:16:17 <ehird> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2009/07/tmax-window/
01:16:27 <ehird> AnMaster: I think they share some code.
01:18:02 <AnMaster> much of the user space code could probably be shared
01:21:28 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortinet#Controversies "It has been said by 125 people DEFTA causes too much drama and should be closed down, though sources have not confirmed this." <-- that seems completely out of context. Wiki spam I guess?
01:22:42 <ehird> let's invest $40,000 into this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAt2xD1L8dw
01:22:47 <ehird> the models are of amazing quality, wow
01:23:04 <ehird> it was made in under 4 hours
01:25:10 <sgeo> Now, have it able to to electronics and I'll be happy
01:25:45 <ehird> it can't print a pony either.
01:27:58 <sgeo> "Just like any other printer" except for taking hours and not minutes >.>
01:28:33 <sgeo> And yes, not printing ponies is a problem
01:28:54 <ehird> sgeo: Cry me a fucking river. It prints a great-looking, coloured 3D object that looks like something you'd buy in the store and you can make it shiny and nice, with barely any maintenance, in less than four hours.
01:28:59 <ehird> Any complaining over that is just ridiculous
01:29:36 <sgeo> I know, I just like complaining
01:29:45 <AnMaster> reprap will be able to print electronics in the future
01:29:47 <sgeo> (not usually, don't know what's with me now)
01:29:51 <AnMaster> not as good looking models though
01:30:10 <sgeo> Screw form! Long Live Function, Down With Form!
01:30:48 <ehird> Form is function in a lot of cases.
01:30:58 <ehird> For instance, in, say, a glass.
01:31:06 <sgeo> "You can say good-bye to... dangerous baths"
01:31:09 <ehird> Sure, you could easily use an ugly, reprapped, white thing.
01:31:23 <ehird> Or you could buy one made out of real glass that doesn't look like play-dough.
01:31:26 <sgeo> Then they say you can put the object in some sealant thing
01:31:32 <ehird> Anything that can be more like the latter with the qualities of the former...
01:31:40 <ehird> It's just painting it.
01:32:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it uses the powder as the support thingy for overhanging structures?
01:33:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it was a question if that was what happened...
01:34:14 <AnMaster> probably works by sintering then
01:34:39 <ehird> all i know is i looks amazing and I want one :)
01:34:40 * AnMaster ponders local sintering using a laser
01:34:51 <ehird> sintering makes ceramics
01:34:59 <ehird> # Selective laser sintering, a rapid prototyping technology.
01:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you could use the same thing for plastic powder I'm quite sure
01:35:09 <ehird> Selective laser sintering is an additive manufacturing technique that uses a high power laser (for example, a carbon dioxide laser) to fuse small particles of plastic, metal, ceramic, or glass powders into a mass representing a desired 3-dimensional object. The laser selectively fuses powdered material by scanning cross-sections generated from a 3-D digital description of the part (for example from a CAD file or scan data) on the surface of a powder bed
01:35:12 <ehird> . After each cross-section is scanned, the powder bed is lowered by one layer thickness, a new layer of material is applied on top, and the process is repeated until the part is completed.
01:35:15 <ehird> yeah that seems it
01:35:22 <ehird> doesn't require support structures it says
01:35:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, because the non-melted powder acts as a support structure already
01:35:51 <sgeo> I could make action figures for my hypothetical kids without buying them in stores!
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01:36:15 <ehird> sgeo: that's the furthest your thought process goes?!
01:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the trick is getting it smooth and such. That isn't easy.
01:36:26 <ehird> i'm thinking more on the lines of printing kids!
01:36:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the object they show seems exceptionally smooth
01:36:54 <AnMaster> ehird, very thin layers + good examples I guess ;)
01:36:59 <sgeo> The object they show looks ray-traced >.>
01:37:16 <ehird> AnMaster: 400dpi it says
01:37:41 <ehird> Nobody says dots per cm.
01:37:51 <ehird> AnMaster: an inch is abotu this big: | |
01:38:04 <ehird> it's a very intuitive size
01:38:14 <sgeo> Could you make spare parts with this thing?
01:38:30 <ehird> AnMaster: 2.54cm exactly.
01:38:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you were lucky when you guessed my font size
01:38:58 <ehird> it's probably about the width your thumb and... next-to-thumb make when you try and show someone what "a small distance" is
01:39:08 <ehird> AnMaster: font size + dpi
01:39:18 <ehird> i just went a bit over an inch for me
01:39:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you have big hands
01:39:32 <ehird> between thumb and ntt
01:39:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I have mentioned both dpi and font size before iirc
01:39:55 <ehird> i just eyeballed it
01:40:36 <AnMaster> anyway, is it 400 layers per inch too?
01:42:20 <AnMaster> ehird, the interesting part here is the colour I think
01:42:25 <ehird> for less than $40k it's a steal
01:42:51 <AnMaster> theory: basic SLS, but before sintering drop down some ink in the powder.
01:43:01 <ehird> * ZPrinter 310 Plus (monochrome, affordable, easy to use)
01:43:01 <ehird> * ZPrinter 450 (full color, automated, office friendly)
01:43:02 <AnMaster> result: ink is merged with the plastic basically
01:43:03 <ehird> * Spectrum Z510 (high resolution, premium color, large size)
01:43:05 <ehird> * ZPrinter 650 (best-in-class, largest models, highest resolution, best color)
01:43:09 <ehird> AnMaster: they tell you it's inkjet
01:43:09 <sgeo> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
01:43:15 <sgeo> I HATE THE CLOUD!
01:43:25 <sgeo> I AM ANTI-CLOUD
01:43:33 <ehird> sgeo: EXPRESS YOUR OPINION WITH ALL CAPITALS PLEASE
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01:43:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just wondering *how* the ink works
01:43:51 <ehird> meh the 650 just looks like a souped up 450, lame
01:44:07 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-450/spage.aspx has images of objects
01:44:25 <SGEO> Seriously, why should sensitive data be given to large corportations like Google?
01:44:29 <ehird> `calc 39,000 $ in sek
01:44:30 <HackEgo> 39 000 US$ = 312 292.306 Swedish kronor
01:44:32 <ehird> AnMaster: roughly.
01:44:44 <ehird> SGEO: don't you use gmail?
01:44:50 <ehird> yes, you do, so stop talking now.
01:45:02 <AnMaster> ehird, ... I think I will go for reprap instead ...
01:45:12 <ehird> AnMaster: y'know, it IS for corporations
01:45:16 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway for the capabilities that's a great price
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01:45:22 <AnMaster> <SGEO> Seriously, why should sensitive data be given to large corportations like Google? <-- I agree
01:45:24 <ehird> reprap isn't even in the same league really
01:45:30 <ehird> it's like pentium pro vs xeon cluster
01:45:38 <AnMaster> I used to use it for some mailing list. gentoo-amd64 iirc
01:45:50 <AnMaster> something which was already public anyway
01:45:52 <ehird> the "cloud" can be good. it can be bad.
01:46:07 <ehird> having one opinion and sticking to it without considering it case by case is merely religion.
01:46:16 <pikhq> ehird: Pentium Pro *on FPGA* vs. Xeon cluster.
01:46:36 <SGEO> I'm ok with the cloud for non-sensitive stuff
01:46:43 <ehird> AnMaster: why not?
01:46:58 <pikhq> Assuming a sufficiently large FPGA, sure.
01:47:02 <ehird> pikhq: 8086 on FPGA 3d-scanned and the region of space emulated by a computer based on fans, grills, gates and plastic balls flying around
01:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I guess Pentium Pros are slow enough to handle
01:47:14 <ehird> — talk about fan noise eh —
01:47:19 <ehird> AnMaster: the speed doesn't make it a pentium pr
01:47:28 <ehird> but no, an fpga will not match even pentium speeds.
01:47:45 <pikhq> ehird: It will match the bottom of Pentium's speed.
01:47:48 <ehird> http://www.zcorp.com/images/173_008.jpg ← This is what people use 3D printers for: to make hi-tech dildos.
01:47:53 <pikhq> They made 75 Mhz Pentiums.
01:48:03 <ehird> 75Mhz would be one hefty fpga
01:48:19 <pikhq> Yes, but you can obtain FPGAs that can do that.
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01:48:36 <AnMaster> iirc there are 100 MHz FPGAs even
01:48:58 <AnMaster> but I think the limit is somewhere around there, unless things changed since I last looked
01:49:17 <ehird> why y'all propagating the mhz myth
01:49:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.zcorp.com/images/173_008.jpg ← This is what people use 3D printers for: to make hi-tech dildos. <-- what is it *really* supposed to be?
01:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: no idea.
01:49:53 <ehird> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megahertz_myth
01:50:07 <ehird> it's a meaningless way to measure speed
01:50:17 <pikhq> I know of it, yes. What the *fuck* does it have to do with anything in this circumstance?
01:50:34 <pikhq> Megahertz is not being used as a speed of computation, it's being used as a measure of clock cycles.
01:51:03 <pikhq> Specifically, whether or not an FPGA can offer a clock speed that an ASIC Pentium had.
01:51:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you can see it isn't perfectly smooth in http://www.zcorp.com/en/imagesets/52/show.aspx
01:52:45 <ehird> AnMaster: that one hasn't got the paint thing on i think
01:52:59 <ehird> pikhq: we were talking about speed; you mentioned clock speed
01:53:02 <ehird> the two are not directly related.
01:53:07 <ehird> AnMaster: but it's good enough
01:53:21 <AnMaster> ehird, so is reprap for some things ;P
01:53:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope you won't call http://www.zcorp.com/en/imagesets/58/show.aspx "smooth"
01:54:18 <AnMaster> that is a matte and rough finish
01:54:27 <ehird> it's not smooth, but it looks nice.
01:54:34 <ehird> you could easily, as I said, make it smooth
01:55:25 <AnMaster> ehird, which part of it did you mean
01:55:42 <ehird> the bit where they coat the thing with some stuff and it looks all shiny
01:56:01 <AnMaster> ehird, that is some color fixation thing and glossy thing
01:56:13 <AnMaster> but it doesn't make the item less *rouge*, just glossy
01:56:21 <ehird> right well use some other stuff on the thing so it looks more like thingy
01:56:24 <ehird> ("ah, you talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded")
01:56:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, like sandpaper ;P
01:56:47 <ehird> ("what i'd do, is just like, like, you know, like, you know what i mean like" etc)
01:57:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what would happen if you wanted to make a sealed plastic bubble? You can't
01:58:11 <ehird> nor a living, breathing pony that loves you
01:58:12 <AnMaster> why? Because you won't get the powder out of it
01:58:25 <ehird> make it, get powder out, seal it
01:58:34 <AnMaster> I'm prettu sure reprap could do it
01:58:44 <ehird> reprap cannot produce complex shapes
01:58:47 <ehird> you have to solder shit together
01:59:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I seen it on their web-site
01:59:03 <ehird> you have to do a lot of soldering to make stuff with reprap
01:59:08 <ehird> AnMaster: yes. those are soldered
01:59:16 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/7/1/87109256baca5c0b5728fac15ed20220.png ← [.,.] it's a smiley!
01:59:35 <AnMaster> ehird, where does it mention that
01:59:52 <AnMaster> and yes, reprap based on sintering would be nice
01:59:59 <ehird> AnMaster: google it or whatever, and with a soldering iron.
02:00:00 <AnMaster> since that technology works pretty well
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02:00:06 <ehird> get the two pieces, put them together, solder, done.
02:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it can do temp support structures
02:00:38 <AnMaster> but I don't think such a ball would need it.
02:00:42 <ehird> AnMaster: please, stop showing your ignorance of reprap
02:00:50 <ehird> it cannot do non-trivial structures
02:01:19 <AnMaster> ehird, examples of soldered ones on their website. I know one. A flyswatter too large to *fit in the machine*
02:01:26 <AnMaster> which isn't "complex", just "large"
02:02:39 <ehird> http://reprap.org/pub/Main/ItemsMade/shoes-small.jpg ← three parts, soldered together
02:02:49 <ehird> anything that hovers over something else
02:03:00 <ehird> where = is further apart
02:03:03 <ehird> you need to solder
02:03:05 <ehird> otherwise it fails
02:04:36 <AnMaster> ehird, reprap uses FDM instead of SLS.
02:04:39 <ehird> reprap cannot do non-trivial shapes, as I said
02:04:58 <ehird> AnMaster: here's what will happen:
02:05:15 <ehird> not on their front marketing pag.
02:05:20 <ehird> ask pikhq if you want non-ehird verification
02:06:27 <SGEO> "Help protect yourself against viruses and spam" <-- from an MSN TV demo thing
02:06:32 <SGEO> http://www.msntv.com/pc/experience/
02:07:04 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/539475.txt?key=g6pcpbtzaxvxfx3ixb8veq
02:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes.. that is why there is the second nozzle to add support material to be able to do that.
02:07:57 <ehird> I only speak from reading the user made objects.
02:08:23 <ehird> 12. This agreement will be governed by the laws of British Columbia, Canada.
02:08:23 <ehird> 13. You may not use the service if you are a citizen or resident of Canada.
02:08:25 <ehird> —tarsnap terms of conditions
02:08:30 <ehird> ( https://beta.tarsnap.com/terms-why.html#NOCANADIANS )
02:08:45 <ehird> AnMaster: see my link
02:08:53 <ehird> that don't exist when selling to people abroad
02:09:02 <ehird> it IS in paid beta, after all
02:09:14 <ehird> (tarsnap is an encrypted backup service using amazon's S3 storage service that powers amazon.com)
02:09:26 <ehird> (by Colin Percival, cryptography & BSD extraordinaire)
02:09:54 <ehird> ($0.30 per 1gb per month storage, same for bandwidth. good deal)
02:10:16 <ehird> (S3 charges $0.15 per 1gb per month storage, dunno about bandwidth)
02:10:28 <ehird> (but lacks the nice backup client, cryptography code, incremental stuff, etc etc etc)
02:21:12 <pikhq> ehird: You remember the crazy uber-build?
02:21:22 <pikhq> ... There's now six-core Opterons.
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02:49:04 <SGEO> ok, except looking like
04:09:04 <SGEO> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3238
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09:10:33 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 15970 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
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16:43:08 <AnMaster> ehird, actually that printer doesn't melt:
16:43:27 <AnMaster> "One variation of 3D printing consists of an inkjet printing system. Layers of a fine powder (plaster, corn starch, or resins) are selectively bonded by "printing" an adhesive from the inkjet printhead in the shape of each cross-section as determined by a CAD file. This technology is the only one that allows for the printing of full colour prototypes. It is also recognized as the fastest method."
16:43:32 <AnMaster> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing
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19:09:27 <ehird> 18:21:22 <pikhq> ... There's now six-core Opterons.
19:09:34 <ehird> pikhq: there are eight-core Nehalem-EXs.
19:10:15 <ehird> pikhq: "Nehalem-EX will provide tremendous scalability, from large-memory two-socket systems through eight-socket systems capable of processing 128 threads"
19:11:16 <pikhq> ehird: Shipping now?
19:11:39 <ehird> With the price of the uberrig? You could pay them to ship now. They have, however, been demonstrated. http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20090526comp.htm
19:11:44 <pikhq> That six-core Opteron is on sale right now.
19:12:02 <ehird> So what? Feasibility is not a goal of the uber rig.
19:12:05 <pikhq> (8-core coming out in $SOON)
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19:13:36 <ehird> We should remake the uberrig focusing on performance instead of price; it got a bit the silly with the "adding 40,000 harddrives" thing.
19:14:49 <pikhq> More DDR3 is required.
19:15:00 <icefox> actually six-core for $600 is pretty reasonable, the alternative would be picking multiple machines with dual/quad which would cost a bit more
19:15:17 <ehird> icefox: O RLY? You have clearly not seen our 8-processor system.
19:15:42 <pikhq> $5,600 for CPUs. :D
19:15:56 <pikhq> Also, how many gigs of RAM? 256G?
19:16:00 <ehird> pikhq: I'm thinkin' a 2xNehalem Xeon system with, oh, 128GB of RAM? You can get 4GB sticks of DDR3, they're just über-expensive.
19:16:25 <pikhq> Can't you get 4xNehalem systems now?
19:16:41 <ehird> Although I retract my previous criticism of hyperthreading
19:16:47 <ehird> all the benchmarks show it can almost double performance
19:16:50 <ehird> I haven't seen it be slower
19:17:05 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, and 4xASUS Mars in Quad-SLI. What's an ASUS Mars? Two GTX 285s (the best single gaming GPU on the market) stuck together.
19:17:05 <pikhq> Hmm. Guess Intel decided to stick enough cache in those chips, then.
19:17:28 <ehird> 8 GPUs, bitch. Talk about number crunching.
19:18:05 <ehird> It's even "Limited Edition".
19:18:14 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, and it has 4GB of graphics memory.
19:18:24 <ehird> What's that, Quadro and Tesla? You thought you could maybe beat it with RAM?
19:18:35 <ehird> (That's a single card)
19:18:50 <ehird> 16GB of graphics memory in total. That's more than the RAM I'm putting in my new rig...
19:19:25 <pikhq> Would you say 18x DDR3 slots is a good idea? :P
19:19:47 <ehird> Bah, that's it, I'm opening a new window on the 'egg.
19:19:59 <ehird> Time to drool over exorbitant amounts of money.
19:20:18 <ehird> pikhq: it's questionable whether we even need to bother with hard drives :-D
19:20:39 <ehird> pikhq: we could have one of those PCIe SSDs, and use a few SATA SSDs in RAID-0 to just get a driver and boot into them
19:21:17 <pikhq> It appears difficult to get a mobo with 4 PCIe x16 slots.
19:21:25 <ehird> pikhq: Meh, we can sort that out later.
19:21:33 <ehird> pikhq: 18x DDR3 sounds nice; would be nice to have more but oh well
19:21:47 <ehird> If we can find 8GB sticks of DDR3 that's 144GB
19:21:52 <ehird> Dunno if we can though
19:22:04 <ehird> pikhq: massively more ram won't really help performance appreciably in a lot of things
19:22:13 <ehird> past like 100GB it'll just be minor
19:22:51 <ehird> pikhq: Do you think you can get PCIe expansion cards?
19:23:13 <ehird> PCI Express 2.0 x 16 1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link) (Auto switch to x8 Link if slot 4 is occupied)
19:23:14 <ehird> 1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x8 Link)
19:23:16 <ehird> 1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link) (Auto turn off if slot 6 is occupied)
19:23:18 <ehird> 1 x PCI-E x16 (Gen2 x16 Link for 1U Full-Height/Full-Length Card) (Auto turn off if slot 5 is occupied, MIO supported)
19:23:24 <ehird> So that's 3xPCIex8
19:23:31 <pikhq> Here's a system with 7 PCIe slots (x8, but they're x16 slots).
19:23:43 <ehird> pikhq: x8 isn't acceptable
19:23:49 <ehird> WE NEED GRAPHICS BANDWIDTH!
19:24:36 <ehird> the nehalem server mobos kind of suck tbh
19:25:09 <ehird> but 2x4corenehalem w/ HT is probably gonna be better than 4x4coreopteron
19:25:40 <pikhq> 4x6 Opterons, you mean.
19:26:03 <ehird> pikhq: Mh. There's more to life than cores; if we wanna do massively parallel stuff we got the gfx cards
19:26:31 <icefox> but still in one box? Do you push it out to multiple boxes?
19:26:34 <pikhq> Also, there's only two motherboards with 4 x16 slots. They're both for Opterons. ;p
19:26:41 <ehird> icefox: One box; it may be 12U though.
19:26:56 <ehird> pikhq: The server nehalem mobos, btw, don't support >1333mhz ram. But I doubt the Opteron boards do either.
19:27:02 <ehird> Unfortunately, consumer boards are one-processor.
19:27:15 <ehird> Where can a mad rich person get a break? /sig
19:27:25 <pikhq> AMD does consumer two-processor boards.
19:27:43 <pikhq> (because they're silly like that)
19:27:44 <ehird> pikhq: But that's only 8 threads vs 16
19:28:14 <ehird> pikhq: Do Opterons work in consumer boards? I doubt.
19:28:27 <pikhq> The two-processor boards are Socket F.
19:28:58 <ehird> pikhq: Nehalem Xeon sockets are the Core i7 sockets, but they still don't work together due to QPI.
19:29:17 <pikhq> AMD doesn't do that stupid shit.
19:29:47 <ehird> pikhq: For values of stupid shit equal to "not charging the consumers more for features they don't need"
19:30:03 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=22&name=AMD-Motherboards ;; I see no dual-sockets
19:30:11 <ehird> Remember we need AM3 & DDR3.
19:30:47 <pikhq> All this is pointless: there's a 6-core Xeon.
19:30:59 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117176
19:32:25 <pikhq> ... It's socket 604. Why?
19:32:35 <ehird> pikhq: It's not Nehalem.
19:32:40 <ehird> Therefore, it's worthless.
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19:41:36 <ehird> pikhq: Maybe we should just set the rig's price at $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 — the cost to get a whole 3d printer that can print an uber-rig designed and made
19:42:50 <pikhq> ehird: At that price point, I want a Von Neumman replicator or a universal Turing machine.
19:43:34 <oerjan> at that price point i would throw in FTL travel and communication because you're going to need it just to collect the money :D
19:43:57 <ehird> pikhq: it's only 2500000000 bill gateses
19:44:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Fine, fine. I want the USS Enterprise.
19:44:47 <oerjan> > (/2500000000).read.filter(/=',')$"1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000"
19:45:04 <ehird> > nub ',' "1,000,000"
19:45:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
19:45:11 <pikhq> Oh, hi, Lambdabot.
19:45:23 <ehird> @hoogle (Eq a) => a -> [a] -> [a]
19:45:23 <lambdabot> Data.List delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a]
19:45:24 <lambdabot> Data.List intersperse :: a -> [a] -> [a]
19:45:24 <lambdabot> Data.List (\\) :: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> [a]
19:45:31 <ehird> > delete ',' "1,000,000"
19:45:39 <ehird> except not like that, lambdabot.
19:45:45 <ehird> > "," \\ "1,000,000"
19:46:20 <oerjan> neither works properly when it's not a set
19:46:36 <pikhq> > [x | x<-"1,000,000", x != ',']
19:46:43 <pikhq> > [x | x<-"1,000,000", x /= ',']
19:46:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: 18x DDR3 sounds nice; would be nice to have more but oh well <-- WTH are the dimensions of that mobo...
19:46:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Regular high-end server size.
19:47:19 <oerjan> also, $4.0e20 is quite a bit more than bill gates has
19:47:20 <pikhq> > filter (/=',') "1,000,000"
19:47:23 <ehird> HAHA WOW. Unix time hit 2^30 on 2004-01-10…………… at 13:37.
19:47:24 <AnMaster> ehird, remind me what those dimensions were?
19:47:36 <ehird> AnMaster: a bit bigger than eATX.
19:47:50 <oerjan> pikhq: er, that's what i started with
19:49:18 <pikhq> @hoogle Char -> String -> String
19:49:19 <lambdabot> Distribution.Simple.PreProcess.Unlit plain :: String -> String -> String
19:49:19 <lambdabot> Data.List insert :: Ord a => a -> [a] -> [a]
19:49:19 <lambdabot> Data.List delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a]
19:49:32 <ehird> that's Eq a=>a->[a]->[a]
19:50:01 <oerjan> nice, hoogle generalizes
19:52:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> Where can a mad rich person get a break? /sig <ehird> h <-- when he/she is rich enough to have the perfect mobo custom made :P
19:52:39 <oerjan> > intersection "1,000,000" ['0'..'9']
19:52:45 <oerjan> > intersect "1,000,000" ['0'..'9']
19:52:56 <oerjan> > flip intersect "1,000,000" ['0'..'9']
19:53:05 <oerjan> not overly commutative, there
19:53:22 <pikhq> > flip intersect $ "1,000,000" ['0'..'9']
19:53:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t -> [a]'
19:53:33 <pikhq> > flip . intersect $ "1,000,000" ['0'..'9']
19:53:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b -> c' against inferred type `[a]'
19:53:48 <oerjan> the $ needs to go before the _last_ argument
19:54:09 <pikhq> > (flip . intersect) "1,000,000" ['0'..'9']
19:54:11 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b -> c' against inferred type `[a]'
19:54:17 <pikhq> > (flip intersect) "1,000,000" ['0'..'9']
19:54:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: haskell library lookup
19:54:58 <oerjan> it can find functions matching a type
19:55:24 <lambdabot> Data.List intersect :: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> [a]
19:55:25 <lambdabot> Data.List intersectBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
19:55:25 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap intersection :: IntMap a -> IntMap b -> IntMap a
19:56:22 * oerjan wonders if they removed @more
19:56:27 <lambdabot> @more. Return more output from the bot buffer.
19:56:41 <lambdabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
19:56:41 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString map :: (Word8 -> Word8) -> ByteString -> ByteString
19:56:41 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap map :: (a -> b) -> IntMap a -> IntMap b
19:56:53 <ehird> oerjan: @hoogle doesn't do @more.
19:56:54 <lambdabot> hoogle <expr>. Haskell API Search for either names, or types.
19:57:31 <oerjan> dead people usually are
19:59:00 <oerjan> if there is a command that _needs_ @more, you'd think it would be @hoogle
19:59:35 <oerjan> it doesn't even give more hits in privmsg
19:59:45 <oerjan> otoh it does have a web interface
20:00:36 <oerjan> @hoogle (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:00:36 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable fmapDefault :: Traversable t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b
20:00:36 <lambdabot> Prelude fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:00:36 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<$>) :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:01:19 <oerjan> @hoogle (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:01:20 <lambdabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:01:20 <lambdabot> Data.List map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:01:20 <lambdabot> Control.Parallel.Strategies parMap :: Strategy b -> (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:01:34 <ehird> ebbing winter face
20:02:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> so's your mom <oerjan> dead people usually are <-- BRAINS!
20:02:48 * ehird eats oerjan's mother's brain, absorbs the stupidity
20:02:51 <ehird> hurf durf why i do that
20:03:05 <AnMaster> ehird, because you are already stupid?
20:03:05 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know who else marked their jokes that were in bad taste?
20:03:11 <ehird> He did THE HOLOCAUST.
20:03:19 <ehird> ...the HITLER? I didn't intend that.
20:03:23 <ehird> I guess I really did become stupider, huh.
20:03:28 <oerjan> you LOSE because of the GODWIN
20:03:50 <ehird> The Godwin is about the the Nazis and the Hitler.
20:03:57 <AnMaster> the ehird lost because of the Godwin.
20:04:07 <oerjan> hm is it punironical when an atheist loses because of godwin?
20:04:19 <ehird> The ehird, which is the myself, did the loss because of the "the Godwin" thing.
20:04:23 <ehird> oerjan: erm, howso?
20:04:27 <ehird> what's hitler got to do with atheism
20:04:39 <oerjan> because then it's a GodWin, get it?
20:05:02 <ehird> First things first.
20:05:07 * ehird rips oerjan's skull apart.
20:05:17 * ehird punches oerjan's eyeballs, then blends them while still connected.
20:05:25 * ehird rips off all non-headular limbs of oerjan.
20:05:36 * ehird cuts off all of oerjan's remaining skin.
20:05:46 * ehird squishes oerjan's brain, lobotomizes repeatedly.
20:05:54 * ehird blends oerjan's brain.
20:06:07 * ehird evaporates the remaining skin, then liquidizes the gas, then freezes the gas, then poops on it.
20:06:18 * ehird melts the result, throws it in the sewer.
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20:07:19 <oerjan> now the atheist loses again, because the fact i can still talk is proof of the existence of a soul
20:07:34 -!- Pthing has joined.
20:08:22 <ehird> oerjan: I think it's proof that the body I destroyed was a dud, and you are in fact an AI.
20:08:53 <oerjan> after all, i cannot prove that i am not an AI, even to myself
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20:11:00 <ehird> oerjan: yudkowsky would not be pleased
20:11:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, No definitions were found for punironical.
20:11:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, what the hell does that work mean
20:11:29 <ehird> AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
20:11:37 <ehird> All your family are dead because you caused that tornado.
20:12:45 <oerjan> ehird: why not? it would mean the singularity has already happened, and not completely unfriendly. although not complete friendly either, alas.
20:13:09 <AnMaster> about that turing test thingy... Someone should do it but hook up either two AIs or two humans. The person talking to them would become very confused.
20:13:18 <ehird> oerjan: if you don't know you're an AI you can't self-modify
20:13:27 <ehird> AnMaster: two humans is the whole point of the turing test, dude.
20:13:38 <ehird> and two AIs just generates blabber; it's been done
20:13:39 <oerjan> or at least not very efficiently
20:13:41 <ehird> feedback loop type stuff
20:14:00 <AnMaster> ehird, yes.. but I meant for the tester to talk to
20:14:26 <oerjan> ehird: i was not implying _i_ was the superhuman AI, btw, but if AIs exist it's likely a superhuman AI has created them
20:14:30 <ehird> You need a larger sample size than two, and if it's big enough, it'll just give rubbish results
20:14:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you could decide which is the most human one
20:14:43 <AnMaster> ehird, it is supposed to be a practical joke
20:14:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, still: <AnMaster> oerjan, No definitions were found for punironical.
20:15:04 <oerjan> hm well that doesn't hold true dor a short while
20:15:07 <ehird> AnMaster: It wouldn't be funny though.
20:15:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's because it was made up on the spot
20:15:16 <ehird> oerjan: can you tell AnMaster he's an idiot just one time plz?
20:15:47 <oerjan> ehird: i don't believe in doing that, although i sometimes slip up
20:16:15 <ehird> oerjan: you're an idiot!
20:16:51 <oerjan> also, i'm aware of that
20:17:11 <oerjan> idiot and genius at the same time, dependent on subject
20:17:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: well probably not in the clinical sense :D
20:18:07 <AnMaster> erm. I think that one issue ehird is having is not knowing the difference between "idiot" and "smart but lacking knowledge in this specific area"
20:18:19 <ehird> i was joking. you idiot.
20:18:30 <ehird> (note: the latter isn't a joke, but do not imply "therefore".)
20:18:47 <AnMaster> but you are metajoking that it wasn't a joke
20:18:54 <ehird> "you idiot." directed at you wasn't a joke, I just implied no causation.
20:19:40 <ehird> what was that replacing?
20:24:10 <ehird> pikhq: Prepared for a massive WTF?
20:24:22 <ehird> pikhq: Using the default Firefox theme instead of the more mac-like one, the menus are now curved.
20:25:32 <ehird> AnMaster: The menus are meant to be curved.
20:25:53 <ehird> It happened in every version.
20:25:58 <ehird> AnMaster: It's only on mac too, stop being stupid.
20:26:17 <ehird> See any_OSX_screenshot_ever.
20:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard-stacks-fan-grid.png ?
20:27:35 <ehird> I'm going to assume you're joking and not being purposefully dense.
20:27:46 <ehird> So let me congratulate you on furthering the field of Jokes That Aren't Funny.
20:27:58 <AnMaster> ehird, probably. can't find a screenshot of the menus open though
20:28:39 * ehird tries Grapher.app after seeing it in that screenshot, likes it.
20:29:04 <ehird> I can type 'y=x/2' and it looks like TeX output as I type.
20:29:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I know; and I know the history to it too.
20:30:03 <ehird> But it's very nice nowadays too.
20:30:13 <ehird> (I'm assuming you know its fun story.)
20:30:33 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.nucalc.com/Story/
20:30:34 <pikhq> Hmm. Was that the one written by a guy who was technically not an Apple employee?
20:30:40 <ehird> pikhq: Two guys, and yep.
20:30:42 <ehird> After they were fired.
20:30:47 <ehird> AnMaster: (Read it all, it's hilarious.)
20:30:53 <pikhq> Yeah, that was a fun story.
20:32:16 <ehird> Wow, the 3D plots are great.
20:33:27 <AnMaster> "She didn't ask who I was and let him keep his office and badge. In turn, I told people that I was reporting to him. Since that left no managers in the loop, we had no meetings and could be extremely productive." <-- :D
20:43:04 <ehird> pikhq: ha, ha... the menu dims the stuff behind it a bit like it should, but doesn't blur it
20:43:10 <ehird> it's so obvious they're drawing it manually...
20:48:53 <AnMaster> 'in the Spinal Tap idiom, we said, "OK, this one goes to eleven."' <-- ehird, can you explain this?
20:49:05 <ehird> Yes, but so can Google, with less energy.
20:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Spinal_Tap
20:49:36 <ehird> Specifically: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY
20:51:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: You see, it goes to 11. That's 1 more than 10.
20:51:41 <ehird> pikhq: But... why not make the top one 10, and make that a bit louder?
20:51:46 <pikhq> Also, it's Spin̈al Tap.
20:51:54 <pikhq> ehird: It goes to 11.
20:52:04 <ehird> pikhq: This Is Spın̈al Tap, actually.
20:52:05 <AnMaster> and to make a joke breaking comment: depends on the scale of the numbers
20:52:07 <ehird> The band is called Spinal Tap.
20:52:26 <ehird> No, the band is Spinal Tap.
20:52:33 <ehird> The documentary is This Is Spın̈al Tap.
20:53:25 <AnMaster> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ThisIsSpinalTap too btw
20:56:01 <AnMaster> "We wanted to release a Windows version as part of Windows 98, but sadly, Microsoft has effective building security." <-- heheh
21:23:36 <AnMaster> a spammer who stopped spamming when asked nicely
21:24:37 <oerjan> it's actually a feral child, who grew up in a spammer hive. this is the first time anyone told him that spam isn't always wanted.
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01:21:35 <ehird> S = { 2*x | x <- Naturals, x^2 > 3 }
01:21:38 <ehird> I love dependent types.
01:22:56 <ehird> pikhq: Lemme explain.
01:23:00 <pikhq> S is the set of natural numbers for which half of their value squared is greater than 3?
01:23:12 <ehird> pikhq: Normally, you have values indexing on values — i.e. values depend and interact with values and nothing else —
01:23:15 <ehird> and types indexing on types.
01:23:20 <ehird> With typeclasses, values index on types —
01:23:27 <ehird> so that (foo::A) and (foo::B) can differ.
01:23:33 <ehird> With dependent typing, TYPES index on VALUES.
01:23:44 <ehird> So, e.g. "printf :: (s :: String) -> PrintfType s".
01:23:49 <ehird> PrintfType :: String -> Set
01:23:56 <ehird> And it looks at the string and decides a type.
01:24:16 <ehird> Since you can't know the values at type-time, you have to provide enough proofs to make it sure of the type.
01:24:20 <ehird> (Unless it's obvious, e.g. a literal).
01:24:45 <ehird> pikhq: Then, (36 :: S) types but (7 :: S) doesn't.
01:24:57 <pikhq> That... That is awesome.
01:25:17 <pikhq> I think I love Haskell's type system even more.
01:25:21 <oerjan> > [ 2*x | x <- [0..], x^2 > 3]
01:25:22 <lambdabot> [4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52,54...
01:25:24 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, Haskell doesn't do it.
01:25:27 <ehird> oerjan: that's a list, not a type.
01:25:52 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, right. Wasn't there some Haskellido that added dependent types?
01:26:05 <ehird> pikhq: But it's not objectively a good thing: you can't infer types in all cases (Haskell can't either but it's much rarer), it's a lot of complexity, and you have to prove a lot of stuff a lot of the time. Also, typechecking might not halt.
01:26:21 <ehird> Also, Agda is quite like Haskell and has dependent types. "She" also does it, but hackily.
01:26:24 <ehird> (It's just a haskell preprocessor)
01:26:32 <ehird> http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/
01:26:57 <pikhq> It's not like it's a bad thing that typechecking might not halt.
01:27:12 <ehird> pikhq: Sure it is; the whole point is to catch errors in a predictable way :)
01:27:13 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Only other language with that property that I can think of is C++.
01:27:30 <ehird> pikhq: Also, if you do a lot of type-computation, you'll be sitting there wondering if it'll halt.
01:27:38 <ehird> pikhq: Hmm. Total FP + dependent types?
01:28:11 <ehird> You know it halts, you know it's safe! Category theorists, switch to this post haste! For we have dependent tyyyyypes! (For- we- have- dependent- tyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyypes!)
01:29:03 <ehird> I think regular data types will prolly look like:
01:29:14 <ehird> Tuple :: Set -> Set -> Set
01:29:24 <ehird> Tuple A B = { Tuple x y | x <- A, y <- B }
01:29:36 <ehird> well. using constructors as the same name as types prolly won't work.
01:29:39 <ehird> Tuple A B = { (,) x y | x <- A, y <- B }
01:29:55 <pikhq> I never realised that a type system could be so awesome.
01:30:02 <ehird> So then (() , ()) :: Tuple Null Null.
01:30:30 <ehird> pikhq: Type system? Isn't that thing those Javaheads use where a variable can only have a string, number or class?
01:30:32 <ehird> Ha! That's just stupid.
01:32:04 <ehird> pikhq: Incidentally, you could probably express "list of strings and integers" with this system.
01:32:11 <ehird> Just union string and integer and do (List Foo).
01:32:26 <ehird> Then { "foo", 2, "bar", 77, 3, "hello", "world" } :: List Foo should type.
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01:42:59 * ehird invents the bestest type: EvenInteger.
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01:44:14 <ehird> It is like an integer, but has to be even.
01:47:08 <sgeo> Why can't I do what the f*** I want to with the WTFPL?
01:48:52 <ehird> sgeo: Because only idiots self-censor.
01:49:10 <sgeo> That does not answer the question
01:49:17 <ehird> Idiots who have no concept of what offensive means, idiots who haven't considered why they do it other than a vague notion of "politeness" and otherwise.
01:49:23 <ehird> sgeo: What the hell is the question?
01:49:26 <ehird> You can do what the fuck you want to.
01:49:39 <ehird> Oh, you mean the license itself?
01:49:40 <sgeo> I can't change the content of the license itself without changing the name
01:49:50 <ehird> Because a circular dependency Wouldn't Work.
01:50:59 <sgeo> On the topic of censorship: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0162.html (you have to understand that all swear words in Erfworld are replaced with "boop")
01:52:19 <ehird> Two exclamation marks I espy. A true sign of utter inanity, or in rare cases pure insanity.
01:54:54 <oerjan> sgeo: sounds like you're eking close to a russell's paradox there
01:55:55 <oerjan> (that seems not a correct use of "eke", anyway)
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05:25:42 <Warrigal> ehird: have you considered why you pronounce everything the way you do?
05:25:53 <Warrigal> If not, I guess you're an idiot, because you do something without considering why you do it.
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05:29:33 <Warrigal> If imitating language habits that you've seen and you like makes you an idiot, f*** that.
05:52:03 <Warrigal> Shall we invent a constructed language that can be parsed by giving it directly to a Haskell interpreter?
06:02:41 * Zuu creates a foot tickling machine and attaches it to Warrigal's feet
06:04:03 <Zuu> that could be quite mean actually
06:04:13 * Zuu just invented a new kind of torture
06:10:03 * Warrigal tries to remember what that one motion is called.
06:12:36 <Warrigal> Maybe I'll have to invent a word for it.
06:14:29 <Warrigal> I wonder if I can reborrow something.
06:18:35 <Deewiant> Zuu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tickle_torture
06:19:06 <Zuu> Lol!, what a coincidence :P
06:19:41 <Zuu> But still sad, then i didnt invent it anyways :/
06:20:54 <Zuu> what is 'nobility' ?
06:21:13 <augur> zuu: its when you get to fuck your relatives and noone minds
06:21:31 <augur> see, i dont understand how tickle torture could genuinely be torture
06:21:37 <Zuu> as in having intercource ?
06:22:09 <Zuu> .. with relatives ?
06:22:51 <Zuu> i was just trying to understand if you meant 'fuck' literally
06:23:28 <Zuu> oh you'll just '...' for anything :P
06:23:52 <augur> no, i ... for completely absurd questions
06:24:00 <Zuu> anyways, getting tickled under your feet for extended periods of time is indeed extremely unpleasant
06:24:28 <Zuu> you should get one of your friends to do that to you, then you'll understand :)
06:25:18 <augur> It is cited that the Burmese king Nanda Bayin, in 1599 "laughed to death when informed by a visiting Italian merchant that Venice was a free state without a king."
06:25:32 <augur> apparently so was burma, after that little bout of stupidity!
06:25:47 <augur> zuu: i have a tickle fetish
06:28:02 <augur> ive had laughter fits. those are fun. :o
06:28:13 <Zuu> Haha, that gif anumation on that article is fun, kittens licking feet ^^
06:29:14 <augur> zuu, are you an adorable boy between the ages of 18 and 25?
06:29:41 <Zuu> adorable, i wouldnt know, but otherwise, yes :)
06:29:53 <augur> well show me a picture and ill let you know :o
06:30:09 <Zuu> Haha... naah
06:30:37 <augur> are you a homosexual
06:30:56 <Zuu> if i am, i dont know it yet
06:30:59 <augur> (if youre not you should probably leave; its a law tht everyone in #esoteric is a homosexual)
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06:31:27 <Zuu> Oh, right, i suppose ill just wait till i get kicked
06:32:17 <augur> i wish i had ops so i could kick you for humors sake :(
06:32:41 <augur> you'd learn your lesson then!
06:32:57 <augur> And dont come back till you love cock! >|
06:33:51 * Zuu suddently finds this conversation unpleasant
06:34:13 <augur> awkward is better than unpleasant.
06:34:15 <augur> far more interesting
06:34:22 <coppro> does doing text processing in SQL count as esoteric?
06:34:49 <augur> only by virtue of SQL being esoteric.
06:35:11 <coppro> SQL for simple retrieval for storage is hardly esoteric!
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06:36:30 <Zuu> how about doing string processing using tuple calculus
06:36:58 <Zuu> with a suitably inappropriate string encoding
06:39:37 <augur> CESSMASTER: so just unicode codepoints as you normally see them denoted.
06:39:41 <Zuu> actually it would have to be a tuple set that represent the string, otherwise it is not possible
06:40:10 <Zuu> but and inappropriate scheme for construction of that set :P
06:40:56 <augur> text encoded as non-uniform natural-language descriptions of the shapes of the characters
06:41:08 <augur> in a language like, say, ... Ojibwa.
06:41:54 <Zuu> or really just, map the use of language to the particular code points
06:42:06 <augur> the ojibwa descriptions will, ofcourse, be written in an ascii encoding of the native ojibwa writing system
06:42:18 <augur> zuu: thats why i said non-uniform
06:42:20 <Zuu> suc that the round shape in o must be expressed in one language while the round shape in Q must be expressed in another
06:42:21 <augur> so there is no mapping
06:44:29 <Zuu> how about expressing it as decimal comma separated integers representing the bytes of just what you said
06:45:54 <Zuu> no reason to make it easyperhaps even with binary checksums every 8 byte of that
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15:35:51 <ais523> busy in RL, I may not talk much
15:35:52 <AnMaster> ais523, any progress on feather?
15:35:59 <ais523> AnMaster: ducking a feather is easy
15:36:05 <ais523> or maybe it's a duck feather?
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16:03:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what does "Hofstadterially" mean? It is in the hover text in xkcd today and google's define: doesn't know.
16:03:14 <AnMaster> Nor does plain google yeild any *useful* results
16:03:25 <ais523> AnMaster: it means "in a manner reminiscent of Douglas Hofstadter"
16:03:31 <ais523> and googling him should yield useful results, hopefuly
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16:16:37 <Deewiant> http://code.google.com/p/awib/
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16:26:04 <Deewiant> Yes, I can see that from the dates
16:31:21 <Deewiant> How does its optimization compare to your recent efforts?
16:34:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, iirc lifthrasiir mentioned on his page about esotope-bfc
16:35:08 <AnMaster> as for mine? no idea. in-between is dormant btw
16:35:13 <AnMaster> working on other stuff currently
16:37:08 <Deewiant> Yep, http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/wiki/Comparison has it
16:38:31 <AnMaster> looking there then in-btween is way better
16:48:03 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, "and propagates all constants (something other compiler doesn't do)" <-- technically in-between does that, but possibly not all of them
16:48:17 <AnMaster> and since it is dormant atm I know it is broken in some parts.
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19:47:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
19:47:26 <pikhq> Oh, wait. %x. ... Screw you, Alex Smith.
19:48:07 <ais523> shouldn't be too hard, surely?
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21:26:21 <ehird> @hoogle Int->[a]->String
21:26:22 <lambdabot> Data.List drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a]
21:26:26 <ehird> yah not what i meant lambdabot
21:26:30 <ehird> @hoogle Int->Integer->String
21:26:30 <lambdabot> Prelude encodeFloat :: RealFloat a => Integer -> Int -> a
21:26:31 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Basics gmapQi :: Data a => Int -> (a -> u) -> a -> u
21:26:31 <lambdabot> Prelude flip :: (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
21:26:33 <ehird> @hoogle Int->Int->String
21:26:34 <lambdabot> Distribution.Simple.Command commandShowOptions :: CommandUI flags -> flags -> [String]
21:26:34 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Basics gmapQi :: Data a => Int -> (a -> u) -> a -> u
21:26:34 <lambdabot> Data.Fixed div' :: (Real a, Integral b) => a -> a -> b
21:26:40 <ehird> i swear there's a function for it
21:27:19 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> String -> String
21:27:40 <ehird> ugh, i hate that function
21:27:43 <ehird> it's so complicated
21:29:21 <Deewiant> ?ty flip showIntAtBase intToDigit :: (Integral a) => a -> a -> ShowS
21:29:23 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> String -> String
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21:42:10 <oerjan> !c int x; for (x=32;x<255;x++) printf("%x ", x);
21:42:11 <EgoBot> 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 3a 3b 3c 3d 3e 3f 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 4a 4b 4c 4d 4e 4f 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 5a 5b 5c 5d 5e 5f 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 6a 6b 6c 6d 6e 6f 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 7a 7b 7c 7d 7e 7f 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 8a 8b 8c 8d 8e 8f 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 9a 9b 9c 9d 9e 9f a0 a1 a2 a3 a4 a5 a6 a7 a8 a9 aa ab ac ad ae af b0 b1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7
21:45:06 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> String -> String
21:46:04 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 256 chr 0xdeadbeef ""
21:46:23 <Deewiant> > flip showIntAtBase intToDigit 256 0xdeadbeef
21:46:25 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show
21:46:29 <Deewiant> > flip showIntAtBase intToDigit 256 0xdeadbeef ""
21:46:31 <lambdabot> "* Exception: Char.intToDigit: not a digit 239
21:47:58 <ehird> 21:47 roconnor: ehird: CReal isn't FewDigits // in lambdabot
21:48:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Number.CReal.CReal'
21:48:59 <oerjan> @hoogle Data.Number.CReal
21:49:12 <ehird> from numbers on hackage
21:49:19 <ehird> 21:49 roconnor: ehird: numbers is faster and lies more
21:49:42 <oerjan> erm it clearly says Data.Number.CReal there
21:49:48 <ehird> oerjan: the type is CReal.
21:49:51 <ehird> it is not Few Digits' CReal.
21:50:01 <ehird> it is less accurate, sez roconnor
21:50:19 <oerjan> <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Number.CReal.CReal'
21:50:26 <ehird> whoosh is for jokes, oerjan :P
21:51:23 <ehird> 21:51 Cale: > 1/(10^100) == (0 :: CReal)
21:51:24 <ehird> 21:51 lambdabot: True
21:51:28 <ehird> Deewiant: a computable reals library
21:51:32 <ehird> http://r6.ca/FewDigits/
21:51:42 <ehird> which can represent any computable real exactly, and compute on it without error
21:52:30 <Deewiant> Nice, == doesn't terminate :-)
21:53:21 <ehird> Deewiant: due to a little thing called "impossibility"
21:54:39 <ehird> Deewiant: pi == pi
21:54:48 <ehird> have fun traversing all those infinity digits to find out if they ever differ
21:55:13 <ehird> Deewiant: 1 is represented at 1.00000000000000000000000000000…
21:55:28 <ehird> Deewiant: besides, why have a semi-broken (==)?
21:55:31 <Deewiant> It doesn't have to be like that.
21:55:33 <ehird> it'd still be bad to use it in general
21:55:42 <Deewiant> Yeah, why break something halfway if you can break it all the way?
21:55:54 <oerjan> Deewiant: predictability
21:56:22 <oerjan> in fact this reminds me of yesterday's wolfram alpha critique on reddit
21:57:43 <oerjan> wolfram alpha's "natural language" user interface is so bad because (1) it obviously cannot be perfect (2) because it is complicated but not perfect, it's impossible for users to do things reliably with it
21:57:50 <oerjan> was part of the gist of it
21:57:51 <ehird> oerjan: okay blame byorgey, i'm going to bug you about continued fractions now
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21:58:25 <ehird> oerjan: heyyyyyyyyy, I have an idea
21:58:38 <ehird> oerjan: data Butt = Div Integer Butt | StopHammerTime Integer
21:58:43 <ehird> oerjan: 1.5 = 1/2/3
21:59:36 <oerjan> well that's just numerator/denominator, or possibly some factorization
22:00:15 <oerjan> you cannot represent anything other than (a1*a2*...*an)/(b1*b2*...*bn) that way. and those are all rational too
22:00:46 <oerjan> you could also get some infinite expressions i guess, but they wouldn't correspond to reals in any obvious way
22:01:54 <oerjan> the fact that continued fractions actually converge as limits is important. :)
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23:06:03 <bsmntbombdood> why has nobody made a hard drive with 2 r/w heads?
23:06:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: erm aren't platters equivalent
23:06:24 <bsmntbombdood> wouldn't that be like have 2 hard drives in raid0?
23:06:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: not if they hit into each other
23:07:21 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, wouldn't fit in the normal form factor though
23:07:29 <ehird> i'm fairly sure it's not a good idea because (a) it's so obvious that you have to try really hard not to think of it and (b) it hasn't been done in all the decades we've had hard drives, evre
23:07:40 <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
23:07:45 <oerjan> `addquote <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to have two heads
23:07:49 <HackEgo> 28|<bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to have two heads
23:08:12 <ehird> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
23:08:13 <HackEgo> 29|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
23:08:21 <ehird> I pride myself on unfunny alternate universe requotes.
23:08:24 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:10:20 <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste
23:10:36 <ehird> `addquote <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste
23:10:37 <HackEgo> 30|<oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste
23:10:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers <-- the latter. We all know it.
23:10:50 <ehird> `addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
23:10:51 <HackEgo> 31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
23:11:03 <ehird> AnMaster: i just ended it with a cyclic quote structure ↑
23:11:32 <AnMaster> ? addquote <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
23:11:36 <AnMaster> `addquote <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
23:11:37 <HackEgo> 32|<ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
23:11:46 <oerjan> #esoteric, where recursion is considered humor
23:12:46 <ehird> `addquote IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schließen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist völlig BONKERS. Gegrüßet seist du der Führer Hitler!
23:12:47 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schließen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist völlig BONKERS. Gegrüßet seist du der Führer Hitler!
23:13:14 <ehird> IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE (WHERE THE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So I can only conclude that it is wrong or the world is completely BONKERS. Hail the leader Hitler!
23:13:19 <ehird> it translated almost perfectly
23:13:36 <ehird> `addquote IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schließen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist völlig BONKERS. Gegrüßet seist du der Führer Hitler!
23:13:37 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schließen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist völlig BONKERS. Gegrüßet seist du der Führer Hitler!
23:13:45 <ehird> I'll just deunicode it
23:13:56 <ehird> `addquote IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
23:13:58 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
23:14:08 <ehird> GregorR: consider yourself poked.
23:14:09 <oerjan> that translate-retranslate of Heil Hitler seems a bit out of place
23:14:19 <ehird> oerjan: I said "Hail the Fuhrer Hitler!"
23:14:23 <ehird> Because I wanted Fuhrer in it.
23:14:35 <oerjan> sure, but the german translation contains no "heil"
23:14:53 <AnMaster> it is probably hail as in hailstorm
23:15:23 <ehird> FireFly: HackEgo fails at jew-knee-coeducation.
23:15:57 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure "grüß" is "greet"
23:15:57 <ehird> FireFly: I stripped the ss-s too.
23:16:38 <AnMaster> <oerjan> i'm pretty sure "grüß" is "greet" <-- actually it is "grub" but with a bad typesetter.
23:17:21 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
23:17:58 <ehird> `addquote SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTÓ EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan sólo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo está absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
23:17:59 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTÓ EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan sólo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo está absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
23:17:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, ...? I thought you would like that joke...
23:18:12 <ehird> `addquote SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
23:18:13 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
23:18:29 <ehird> Dictatorship translation is all the rage nowadays, or so I hear.
23:19:02 <ehird> It's an hg(1) problem.
23:19:07 <ehird> Further proof that Mercurial is like unto a shit.
23:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, just that GregorR fails to set it up
23:19:25 <AnMaster> it isn't a general proof it fails
23:19:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, seriously, fix this problem.
23:20:16 <AnMaster> ehird, he doesn't read away log iirc.
23:20:29 <ehird> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE (WHERE EVERYONE IS KOREAN (NOTE: AS FAR AS I KNOW THIS HAS NEVER COME REMOTELY CLOSE TO HAPPENING, EVER)):
23:20:36 <ehird> I never know this happened in another universe have come remotely close (both where (Note: South Korea, the enemy)):
23:20:39 <ehird> South Korea, the enemy? I never know this happened?
23:20:41 <ehird> Bit of bias, that.
23:20:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a viewsonic or lg or something.
23:20:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 24" @ 1920x1200.
23:21:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Not 1920x1080; the 16:9, it burns.
23:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ask lifthrasiir about it
23:21:27 <bsmntbombdood> is it even possible to get a bigger resolution than that?
23:21:37 <AnMaster> give him the translated version
23:21:38 <ehird> AnMaster: google translate is based on heuristics and suggestions and articles i think
23:21:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: because 16:10 is closer to the golden ratio, and 16:9 is just too widescreen; you can't make a nice square-ish window big enough.
23:22:38 <AnMaster> isn't 4:3 even closer to the golden ratio iirc
23:23:05 <ehird> IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE (WHERE EVERYONE IS KOREAN (NOTE: AS FAR AS I'M AWARE THIS HAS NEVER COME REMOTELY CLOSE TO HAPPENING, EVER)):
23:23:07 <ehird> I know I'm not growing as much as possible remotely close like this happening in an alternative universe (where all (see: Korea, red)):
23:23:12 <ehird> I think this Korean translation is... a bit buggy.
23:23:37 <AnMaster> ehird, either English->Korean or Korean->English is yes
23:24:03 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, ok. I stand corrected
23:24:37 <ehird> `addquote באופן חלופי ביקום זה כרוך כולם מדברים עברית מסיבה כלשהי: <ehird> אז אני יכול רק להסיק כי הוא פגום, או את העולם, הוא מטורף לגמרי
23:24:38 <HackEgo> 35|באופן חלופי ביקום זה כרוך כולם מדברים עברית מסיבה כלשהי: <ehird> אז אני יכול רק להסיק כי הוא פגום, או את העולם, הוא מטורף לגמרי
23:25:53 <oerjan> how in the world can you expect it to record korean when it fails on characters 128-255?
23:26:11 <ehird> `addquote PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
23:26:12 <HackEgo> 35|PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
23:26:19 <oerjan> why the heck is it blue, not red as i requested
23:26:43 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.nextag.com/NEC-MultiSync-21-3-510541635/prices-html
23:27:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Yeah, I'm gonna go with "no". If you wanna spend that much, get an IBM T221 and revel in the tiny 1920x1200 VMs you have.
23:27:22 <ehird> (It costs around $2-3k now; it costed $20,000 when it came out in 2001-2002.)
23:27:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Allow me to demonstrate.
23:27:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://www.novoventus.com/pics/T2211x.jpg
23:27:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: The monitor is 22". That top-left virtual machine is 1920x1200.
23:27:55 <ehird> Its DPI exceeds 200.
23:28:00 <ehird> Bring your own graphics cards.
23:28:18 <ehird> Well, I think it's 1920x1200.
23:28:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: That's quite big actually.
23:28:33 <ehird> Do you just mean for the resolution?
23:28:41 <ehird> In which case, yes, the resolution is gloriously, gloriously excessive.
23:29:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Why?
23:30:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: It doesn't affect how big things are, necessarily; fontconfig has a dpi setting.
23:30:13 <ehird> So the text will be the same physical size.
23:30:22 <ehird> But it will be smoother, images can be higher-resolution at the same size, etc.
23:30:42 <AnMaster> http://www.nextag.com/NEC-MultiSync-21-3-510541635/prices-html
23:30:51 <ehird> We're not talking about that one.
23:30:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Actually...
23:31:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: The T221 is 3840x2400.
23:31:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: There aren't any higher single-display resolutions, afaik.
23:31:21 <ehird> And, heck, it beats a lot of two-displays.
23:31:29 <ehird> And they don't have the DPI to boot.
23:31:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://www.novoventus.com/pics/T2211x.jpg <-- specs?
23:31:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Which ones
23:31:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Obvious disadvantage: you need a lot of graphics horsepower; it will never play games; overly pixel-oriented stuff will be tiny; its refresh rate isn't so hot.
23:31:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/63390/ibm-t221.html
23:32:02 <ehird> Advantages: OMG WANT.
23:32:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Contrast is irrelevant.
23:32:36 <ehird> Anything above 800:1 is = 800:1 in room lit by just one candle.
23:32:42 <ehird> Any higher lighting? Doesn't matter one iota.
23:33:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, it retailed at $20,000. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the panel is good quality.
23:33:02 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on ambient light?
23:33:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Is your room lit by just one candle?
23:33:21 <ehird> if so, then don't buy a monitor under 800:1 (hint: these don't exist)
23:33:28 <ehird> Otherwise, if there's actual light...
23:33:41 <AnMaster> ehird, no... One fluorescent lamp
23:33:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "And, like Formula 1, the technology will filter down to the rest of us before too long; you shouldn't have to wait another ten years to get hold of something similar at an affordable price."
23:33:47 <ehird> 2014 is looking pretty close :)
23:34:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Then contrast is irrelevant above a ridiculously low amount.
23:34:09 <augur> the worlds going to end in 2012
23:34:10 <ehird> augur: that review was written in 2004
23:34:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, if you buy a monitor under 300:1, you might even be able to distinguish it with a magnifying glass.
23:34:37 <bsmntbombdood> seems like it would be nicer to have a 30" or 36" or something display at that resolution
23:34:40 <ehird> Clearly, this is highly important.
23:34:43 <AnMaster> which lights up the keyboard pretty well
23:34:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i dunno about you but i can see my pixels quite easily
23:34:58 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't high contrast better?
23:35:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: with high enough dpi we don't need hacks like font antialiasing
23:35:06 <ehird> screen will finally be as good as print
23:35:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow, the marketeers have done a good job with you.
23:35:31 <ehird> AnMaster: "Actually it's irrelevant" "...but isn't it better?"
23:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I never bothered
23:36:06 <AnMaster> ehird, the black on this monitor seems off-black compared to the black foot of it.
23:36:09 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/contrast-ratio.html
23:36:21 <ehird> AnMaster: that applies to all non-OLEDs.
23:36:25 <ehird> well, maybe CRTs too.
23:36:27 <ehird> all LCDs have that.
23:36:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, read that file and stop being duped.
23:36:54 <ehird> " With this much light in the room, there is no difference between 500:1 and 10000:1 Contrast Ratio!"
23:36:56 <ehird> (talking about a single candle)
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23:37:00 <ehird> So not even 800:1.
23:38:58 <ehird> However, two things.
23:39:11 <ehird> Firstly, I find it incredibly unlikely that you are using your computer under ZERO lighting conditions.
23:39:23 <ehird> Secondly, I find it incredibly unlikely that you have the spectacular vision required to distinguish such things.
23:39:35 <ehird> even with barely any lighting at all, contrast ratios still don't matter.
23:39:57 <ehird> (Apart from ridiculously low ones that don't exist in any display like 50:1.)
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23:55:10 <AnMaster> what I'm really missing is a wider gamut
23:55:20 <AnMaster> yes I know that means less details with 8 bits per pixel
23:56:16 <AnMaster> but I want 16 bits per channel and a wide gamut monitor
23:56:35 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, I'm allergic to them
23:57:47 <AnMaster> btw there is actually some music with beat that I like. Not a lot, but some.
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23:59:59 <ehird> (a) That is not a non-sequitur, (b) I care and (c) this is not sarcastic.
00:00:20 <AnMaster> in that case: http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/legends_of_the_north.ogg
00:02:08 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure what genre it is in. Can you help there?
00:02:49 <ehird> But I'll click anyway, even though I've hated every single wesnoth musics I've listened to.
00:02:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Note effects of sarcasm on claims thus.
00:03:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it sounds like cheesy early 00s game music.
00:03:11 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, that is too meta for my taste
00:03:13 <ehird> Which it most likely is
00:03:25 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you dislike that
00:03:35 <oerjan> Non-sequiturs should all be taken out and shot for insulting Obama!
00:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, also in that case there is one other file you might like
00:03:47 <ehird> Because it's the game music equivalent of Tubular Bells II in the background of a Discovery documentary.
00:04:11 <AnMaster> ehird, if you hate the other wesnoth music you might actually like http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/knalgan_theme.ogg (I hate it)
00:04:20 <ehird> Firefox appears to be trying to download that file over and over again before it plays it.
00:04:30 <ehird> (Well, just the former; haven't tried the latter.)
00:04:47 <AnMaster> vlc http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/knalgan_theme.ogg works here
00:04:48 <ehird> AnMaster: To be fair, I'm running a HIGHLY UNSTABLE WILL EXPLODE INTO VOMIT nightly.
00:05:15 <ehird> Let's see if QuickTime will play a URL. Wait, no; I haven't installed the ogg stuff.
00:05:50 <ehird> No. I prefer mplayer and this machine is temporary.
00:06:02 <AnMaster> what happened to your normal one
00:06:05 <ehird> Until I get my new one.
00:06:11 <ehird> I just clean-upgraded in February.
00:06:17 <AnMaster> ehird, when will you get the new one
00:06:19 <ehird> And downloading stuff is generally therefore pointless.
00:06:27 <ehird> This "legends of the north" is unbearably bad.
00:06:38 <ehird> Can't listen any further.
00:07:05 <AnMaster> plus I really like the "legends of the north" one
00:07:09 <ehird> It's exactly like the other one
00:07:17 <AnMaster> ehird, what, I hate the other one
00:07:23 <AnMaster> so logically you should love it
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00:07:43 <ehird> I hate eating poop and taking videos of doing so, too.
00:07:50 <AnMaster> ehird, like you have to love country western
00:08:10 <ehird> I have ensnared you by your own argument, now go take a camera to the toilet.
00:08:16 <AnMaster> (I like some experimental jazz, might sound strange)
00:08:32 <ehird> I like some jazz. Sort of.
00:08:35 <ehird> (As in, some sort-of-jazz.)
00:08:43 <AnMaster> ehird, so the argument was proven false by absurdity
00:08:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what about country western
00:09:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Allow me to self-lobotomize.
00:09:50 <ehird> Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. The KLF amuse me.
00:10:02 <AnMaster> I hate rap btw. All rap I heard
00:10:05 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_KLF
00:10:36 <ehird> aka The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu, The Timelords and so many others.
00:11:34 <AnMaster> oh a band that changed name too often
00:11:41 <ehird> They never changed name.
00:11:44 <ehird> They just had a fuckton of aliases.
00:12:09 <ehird> But let's say KLF.
00:12:19 <AnMaster> oh the "The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu" one
00:12:28 <ehird> Let's say The KLF.
00:12:37 <ehird> "The KLF" != "The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu", last I checked.
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00:13:21 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, oerjan could have made the joke
00:14:15 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Foundation_Burn_a_Million_Quid
00:15:58 <ehird> Aren't you a socialist?
00:16:13 <ehird> "Budget One million pounds" made me laugh.
00:16:34 <ehird> They might have had it already.
00:18:05 <AnMaster> as for being a socialist... Would that imply burning the money is the best way?
00:18:06 * oerjan thinks alias is already plural in latin
00:18:37 <oerjan> modern socialists don't burn money, they recycle
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00:19:35 <ehird> AnMaster: A socialist society would have no need for money, and thus a True Socialist would denounce it.
00:19:44 <ehird> Because I said so.
00:20:09 <AnMaster> ehird, except we haven't yet achieved such a society, thus we still need money to further our cause.
00:21:08 <AnMaster> [ebuild U ] sys-apps/sed-4.2 [4.1.5-r1] USE="acl%* nls -static" 862 kB <-- why did sed get an "acl" useflag
00:21:23 <ehird> Yeeeeeeeees... I'll stay behind to the system that (a) has had at least one working example in practice, where (b) sane adherents don't attribute its failures to poor application when they're obviously not and that (c) approximates a meritocracy rather than a ubiquitouscrapocracy.
00:21:31 <ehird> (re: 00:20 AnMaster: ehird, except we haven't yet achieved such a society, thus we still need money to further our cause. )
00:22:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I agree that communism isn't the best solution
00:22:34 <ehird> What I said never mentioned "communism".
00:22:41 <augur> ehird: interestingly, in the US, as long as you have >50% of a piece of currency (bills, dunno about coins), the treasury will replace it with a full piece for you
00:23:01 <ehird> augur: So if you cut a bill in half and send both pieces in separately, you can double the amount? :-)
00:23:14 <ehird> Well, you could do that maybe
00:23:36 <AnMaster> depends on how exactly they measure
00:23:39 <ehird> stick a bit more on; won't cost you the price of the bill if you're lucky
00:23:46 <ehird> so you could make a bit under 2x profit
00:24:21 * oerjan vaguely recalls something about needing to have the serial number preserved
00:25:13 <augur> oerjan: not in america.
00:25:17 <augur> you just need >50% of the bill.
00:25:37 <ehird> augur: get some $100 bills and let's do this shit
00:25:52 <AnMaster> ehird, they will detect that you glued on some more stuff
00:25:59 <augur> i dont think your scheme will work, ehird :P
00:26:05 <ehird> AnMaster: not if you do it very carefully
00:26:42 <augur> ehird, its actually easier to just counterfit dollar bills
00:26:50 <augur> or five dollar bills
00:26:58 <augur> use them for vending machine
00:27:09 <ehird> i scanned and printed a £5 note once on regular paper then cut it out
00:27:10 <augur> the ones that accept 5's and give you back coins
00:27:12 <ehird> just to break the law for no reason
00:27:21 <ehird> only one side though :P
00:27:23 <ehird> prolly still counts.
00:27:29 <augur> you have to crumple that shit too.
00:27:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> i scanned and printed a £5 note once on regular paper then cut it out <-- is that illegal?
00:27:39 <AnMaster> it isn't even hard to see it is fake
00:27:43 <augur> tho you can crumple it relatively easily
00:27:47 <augur> and it looks pretty fucking real
00:27:48 <AnMaster> what with only being printed on one side
00:27:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Forging money is illegal in general.
00:27:57 <ehird> augur: paper was a bit too high quality for that
00:28:01 <ehird> could work with recycled paper
00:28:05 <augur> anmaster: its only forgery if you try to use it as real money tho
00:28:16 <augur> im prtty sure, yeah
00:28:32 <augur> because money in advertizements, for instance, isnt a forgery
00:28:41 <augur> replica money is not illegal, afaik. maybe now it is
00:28:45 <augur> in the us it used to not be
00:28:48 <ehird> augur: your variation of english irritates me and i don't know why
00:29:08 <augur> HAVE YOU ANY SCONES
00:29:18 <ehird> well, if you said "advertisements" as opposed to the invalid advertizements (even in american english)
00:29:19 <ehird> that would be good
00:29:20 <augur> CHEERIO AND ALL THAT
00:29:28 <ehird> you know, as opposed to simply being wrong
00:29:31 <augur> well, its supposed to be advertisements, i just cant spell
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00:29:35 <ehird> also isn't instead of isnt would help a little but advertisements is the main thing
00:29:44 <augur> advertizement is not american spelling
00:29:50 <ehird> augur: ha, your defense of "ENGLISH MODERNIZZZZZZZATION" falls down!
00:29:53 <ehird> you are merely the bad englisher!
00:30:15 <augur> hey listen, im not saying american spelling isnt inconsistent
00:30:23 <ehird> no, that's just ...
00:30:25 <ehird> whatever englisher is
00:30:28 <ehird> nounist or something.
00:30:34 <ehird> it's not verbiage-coining i know that much
00:30:38 <augur> also, isnt requiring an apostrophy is silly.
00:30:57 <ehird> also, "alot" really gets on my nerves
00:30:59 <augur> your face looks unbalanced
00:31:02 <ehird> reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally
00:31:04 <augur> alot is a single word as well.
00:31:06 <AnMaster> and izn't ehird's hate for what he badly calls bad English cute?
00:31:08 <ehird> i want to punch you when you say "alot"
00:31:19 <ehird> i will fucking punch you in the god damn face
00:31:29 <augur> well ehird, your ancestors want to punch you in the face for "until"
00:31:41 <augur> and countless others.
00:31:45 <ehird> augur: but you are not shakespeare, so there. :p
00:31:54 <augur> he didn't invent those
00:32:04 <augur> noone invented those
00:32:04 <ehird> augur: I'm going to start using "a n" instead of "an ". It'll be a nball.
00:32:27 <oerjan> wherefore mustest thou mangle english so
00:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster: we don't give a shit
00:32:39 <augur> ehird, if it actually split in your dialect, then it'd be acceptable
00:32:44 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, did you know an ewt -> a newt
00:32:45 <ehird> and anmaster is stupid and also sounds pretentious to boot
00:33:01 <ehird> it cutifies its contextual surroundings
00:33:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is the story of the word
00:33:13 <augur> anmaster gives a perfect example.
00:33:18 <ehird> incidentally "a nhero" proves once and for all that "an h" is only said by illiterate shitbags!
00:33:25 <augur> languages change, ehird.
00:33:37 <ehird> so does your mom. in bed, augur.
00:33:42 <ehird> i have it on good authority.
00:34:16 <augur> pea is another good one
00:34:25 <augur> "pea" used to mean nothing
00:34:32 <augur> the word for what we call a pea as "a pease'
00:34:43 <augur> the plural was "peases"
00:34:58 <augur> but because "pease" sounds so much like an english plural
00:35:06 <augur> people reanalyzed it as being such
00:35:15 <ehird> augur: you should start using mark twain's evolved english spelling. it would be lojikl und kohirnt.
00:35:31 <ehird> unfortunately the translation can't be automated as it involves distinguishing hard and soft c and thusly i cry
00:35:50 <augur> i use the spelling that im familiar with
00:35:54 <augur> and that others are familiar with
00:35:59 <ehird> AnMaster: civil; cunt
00:36:12 <augur> the letter <c> denotes two sounds in english, as in many languages
00:36:15 <ehird> (do not question my choice of examples)
00:36:55 <augur> as does spanish, french (sort of?), italian (sort of?)
00:36:57 <AnMaster> ehird, question for the latter
00:37:30 <augur> but just knowing that i can annoy ehird simply by typing normally
00:37:50 <AnMaster> augur, ofcourse it is delightful!
00:37:57 <AnMaster> but I normally type that as two words
00:38:09 <ehird> augur: "x" is either "ks" or "s" isn't it
00:38:28 <augur> i can only think of examples with it as /ks/
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00:38:40 <augur> yeah, names excluded
00:38:48 <ehird> that much is true.
00:39:09 <ehird> "Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant"
00:39:19 <ehird> I can't even automate that with (x|y) replacements
00:39:19 * AnMaster is listening to Händel's Xerxes: Largo according to his media player
00:39:38 <augur> ehird: part of the problem is that english spelling is not phonemic
00:39:45 <augur> so there is no real automation to use
00:39:56 <augur> you can, however, refer to pronunciations in dictionaries
00:40:03 <AnMaster> ehird, why would you automate it
00:40:04 <augur> and given modern technology, this is trivial.
00:40:11 <ehird> AnMaster: because doing the replacements is a bitch
00:40:22 <AnMaster> ehird, just type it right from the start
00:40:34 <AnMaster> ehird, also more info on this please?
00:40:35 <augur> the wiki also says <x> / Z/
00:40:48 <augur> on english orthography
00:40:54 <augur> also, english spelling reforms are common, AnMaster
00:40:58 <augur> just look them up on wiki
00:41:04 <AnMaster> Swedish had some too historically
00:41:08 <ehird> if onli xat waz izi, AnMaster.
00:41:14 <ehird> (took me ~30s to write)
00:41:17 <augur> english hasnt actually had them
00:41:28 <augur> the only major spelling change in english was introduced by noah webster, i believe
00:41:34 <augur> when he created his dictionary of american english
00:41:35 <ehird> "Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. " looks so pretty though
00:41:45 <augur> in which he modified some spellings to distinguish American english from British english
00:42:02 <ehird> even better lowercased:
00:42:02 <ehird> fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe ingliy-spiking werld
00:42:19 <ehird> AnMaster: http://design.caltech.edu/erik/Misc/Twain_english.html
00:42:36 <augur> logical, throughout
00:43:01 <AnMaster> that doesn't make a lot of sense
00:43:07 <ehird> I did, however, come across one error: the "Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling" that you attribute to Mark Twain is actually (IIRC) a few paragraphs out of a letter to *The Economist*, written by one M.J. Shields (or M.J. Yilz, by the end of the letter). The letter is quoted in full in one of Willard Espy's *Words at Play* books, as well as in other places (I believe it's in Giles Brandreth's *The Joy of Lex*).
00:43:17 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:43:49 <ehird> also http://www.i18nguy.com/humor/eurospell.html
00:44:05 <augur> one seriously problem with english spelling reform proposals
00:44:36 <augur> english dialects vary so much in pronunciation
00:45:13 <augur> that any attempt to make the spelling reflect pronunciation will either have to rely on very abstract, and often mis-aligned, inventories
00:45:52 <ehird> AnMaster: dodderers, maybe.
00:46:23 <ehird> and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch
00:46:26 <augur> its a quote from the page
00:46:30 <augur> " Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"'s in the language is disgraceful, and they should go away."
00:46:44 <augur> we just got rid of soft c's two years prior!
00:48:23 <AnMaster> ph -> f would be nice actually
00:48:30 <AnMaster> it would end up closer to Swedish
00:51:14 <augur> lots of things would be nice.
00:51:25 <augur> there are definitely some ways of streamlining english
00:51:30 <augur> especially in terms of consonants
00:51:37 <augur> those are almost universally unchanged
00:51:54 <augur> most english retains the same consonant systems
00:52:24 <augur> kool will finally become an acceptable spelling! D:
00:54:08 <augur> changes to vowels, forgetit
00:54:12 <augur> too hard to achieve.
00:54:28 <AnMaster> augur, it has changed over time
00:54:38 <augur> vowels vary greatly across dialects
00:54:42 <augur> while consonants havent
00:55:05 <augur> north country/souther canada dialects of english pronounce "iain" and "anne" the same
00:55:24 <augur> some dialects pronounce "pin" and "pen" the same
00:55:31 <augur> "cot" and "caught"
00:55:59 <augur> and those just hover around some mainstream dialects
00:56:00 <AnMaster> how did iain and anne end up the same
00:56:25 <augur> because "anne" has a front vowel
00:56:33 <augur> and in those dialects
00:56:45 * AnMaster isn't sure how to pronounce "iain" anywaye
00:56:50 <augur> that particular vowel is diphtongized
00:57:20 <augur> i@n or iIn in SAMPA
00:57:41 <AnMaster> I fail less at IPA than I fail at SAMPA
00:58:18 <augur> the { of anne in these dialects is /i@/
00:58:21 <augur> theres a spectrum of this tho
00:58:29 <augur> in my dialect, anne has {_r
00:58:33 <augur> which is higher than just {
00:58:40 <augur> but isnt quite a diphtong
00:59:36 <AnMaster> augur, all dictionaries use IPA as far as I have seen
00:59:42 <augur> yes but its useful for typing
00:59:54 <AnMaster> augur, maybe, I don't type phonetics a lot
01:00:17 <augur> tho it might be ɛ̝
01:00:37 <augur> denoting raised-ness
01:00:43 <ehird> 00:59 AnMaster: augur, all dictionaries use IPA as far as I have seen
01:00:56 <augur> ehird: european ones do, usually.
01:00:56 <AnMaster> ehird, *AS FAR AS I HAVE SEEN*
01:01:05 <augur> not english language dictionaries tho
01:01:09 <ehird> you haven't seen an oed?
01:01:19 <AnMaster> Swedish-English and English-Swedish tend to use IPA
01:01:27 <augur> anmaster: the sound in "anne" is either between æ and ɛ or between ɛ and e
01:02:14 <augur> some more extreme new york dialects have {_r/E_r as e@ instead
01:02:40 <augur> while others take this even further and turn it into I@ or i@
01:02:50 <augur> its the uh sound, mostly
01:02:50 <AnMaster> and again I don't know any SAMPA
01:03:05 <augur> im referring to things i just typed in IPA
01:05:14 <augur> ofcourse it isnt agreement because i like a nmaster alot!
01:05:46 <AnMaster> augur, you need more and at the start of sentences as well. Ofcourse.
01:06:10 <AnMaster> augur, it annoys ehird. Sentences starting with "and"
01:06:26 <AnMaster> But I'm not sure about that though.
01:06:33 <augur> and you tell me this now?!
01:07:21 <AnMaster> augur, split infinitives didn't have any effect on ehird last I tried.
01:07:28 <AnMaster> I guess he is too young to find that bad.
01:07:32 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lich59xsjik&feature=related
01:08:11 <ehird> churchill is young then
01:08:31 <augur> UP WITH WHICH I WILL NOT PUT
01:09:08 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHYYkZpZGjo&feature=related
01:09:55 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvQq5xVRHtk
01:10:30 <AnMaster> augur, anything worth watching in the latter two
01:10:53 <AnMaster> augur, enough if you don't have flash and have to mess with command line apps?
01:11:44 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Aq359_QeR4&feature=related
01:11:46 <augur> this one is brilliant
01:12:19 <augur> its just the cool whip one but with lots of editting to make it trippy
01:13:16 <AnMaster> augur, what series is these two first from?
01:13:24 <augur> its all family guy man
01:14:22 <AnMaster> <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvQq5xVRHtk <-- wth at the setting...
01:14:44 <augur> you dont watch family guy, obviously.
01:15:04 <augur> i dont watch family guy
01:15:11 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JhuOicPFZY&feature=related
01:15:24 <AnMaster> <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Aq359_QeR4&feature=related <-- this one is broken?
01:15:57 <augur> its intentionally like that
01:16:00 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRn5-LQCg2s&feature=fvw
01:17:06 <AnMaster> you pasted too many, I list track of which one I was at
01:17:42 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuAVgWJ28Hw&NR=1
01:25:06 <AnMaster> augur, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE <-- in 4k !
01:26:08 <augur> oh i thought you meant like
01:28:04 <augur> i suppose thats interesting, anmaster
01:28:18 <AnMaster> augur, it's bloody awesome, that is what it is!
01:28:24 <augur> tho itd be more so if it were used in like
01:28:28 <augur> real applications.
01:29:04 <AnMaster> augur, um, that requires a powerful pc
01:29:19 <augur> i imagine that a lot of that is procedurals.
01:29:39 <AnMaster> augur, and it is probably hand coded asm
01:29:59 <augur> you could probably utilize procedural stuff to general stuff on the fly, which is then stored
01:31:54 <AnMaster> from the spam directory. Subject: You'd better reply!
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02:08:09 <oerjan> wait, someone actually mentioned Malbolge Unshackled in a reddit comment?
02:26:59 <oerjan> did you swallow a fly?
02:27:07 <bsmntbombdood> why is newegg's cheapest 1920*1080 monitor $160 cheaper than the cheapest 1920*1200?
02:27:11 * oerjan recommends not proceeding to the spider
02:28:27 <oerjan> erm, that isn't obvious?
02:34:54 <oerjan> i guess you haven't quite cracked newegg yet
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02:56:20 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001317
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03:49:33 <Darth_Cliche> hmm... how do you control EgoBot to make it run a program?
03:51:01 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
03:51:33 <EgoBot> Unsupported instruction ''' (0x27) (maybe not Befunge-93?)
03:51:56 <EgoBot> Unsupported instruction ''' (0x27) (maybe not Befunge-93?)
03:52:10 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
03:54:00 <Darth_Cliche> !befunge "dlrow elloH",,,,,,,,,,,
03:56:16 <oerjan> i suppose there just was no output from the programs
03:56:40 <oerjan> !befunge "dlrow elloH",,,,,,,,,,,
03:59:58 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
04:00:35 <oerjan> hm there seems to be no help on using languages in general
04:00:57 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
04:00:58 <Darth_Cliche> !befunge http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/wumpus.bf
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04:03:01 <oerjan> !bf ,>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.
04:03:38 <oerjan> it seems then that it does _not_ just give eof
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04:05:05 <oerjan> all the test programs probably just looped
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04:10:29 * Sgeo is in love with Superosity
04:11:12 <oerjan> 05:11 There is no such nick superosity
04:11:19 <pikhq> HARD DRIVE FAILURE.
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04:14:14 <Sgeo> Superosity.com
04:17:21 * Sgeo is reading random storylines now
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05:01:03 <Sgeo> http://superosity.keenspot.com/comics/sup19990618a.png What's the OS in purple?
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05:09:09 <Sgeo> It looks like perhaps BSD/**
05:09:12 <Sgeo> What's the **?
05:10:40 <Sgeo> http://superosity.keenspot.com/comics/sup19991229a.png
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14:49:30 <ehird> 17:14:57 <AnMaster> I don't HAVE a TV.
14:49:31 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694
14:49:41 <ehird> it depresses me how often i have occasion to link to that in here
14:52:21 <ehird> 17:17:42 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuAVgWJ28Hw&NR=1
14:52:25 <ehird> least funny thing i ever saw
14:53:12 <ehird> 17:25:06 <AnMaster> augur, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE <-- in 4k !
14:53:17 <ehird> wow, it's that thing i linked a week ago!
14:54:06 <ehird> 17:27:54 <bsmntbombdood> cool music
14:54:07 <ehird> 17:28:02 <AnMaster> the beginning especially yes
14:54:07 <ehird> you could be satisfied listening to the first minute of every track of the same genre forever, then
14:54:42 <ehird> http://vimeo.com/1715318 starts off classical :-P
14:55:59 <ehird> 18:27:07 <bsmntbombdood> why is newegg's cheapest 1920*1080 monitor $160 cheaper than the cheapest 1920*1200?
14:56:11 <ehird> 1080p is "the new thing"
14:56:23 <ehird> because people are fucking idiots and just want to watch movies or something
14:56:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that screen is also glossy
14:56:34 <ehird> again useless for non-movie stuff
14:57:46 <ehird> 20:11:19 <pikhq> HARD DRIVE FAILURE.
14:57:53 <ehird> well just restore from your off-site backups then ;)
15:04:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> wow, it's that thing i linked a week ago! <-- a week ago?
15:05:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember it mentioned some months ago in here first time
15:05:16 <AnMaster> I didn't know you linked it a week ago
15:05:24 <ehird> i linked it the first time I know that muhc
15:05:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I know you linked it in March or so
15:05:51 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you're hallucinating, misremembering or delusional
15:05:53 <ehird> i definitely didn't
15:06:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure, but I don't care enough to check logs
15:07:01 <ehird> 20:53 ehird: Lifeforce was in 4k?
15:07:02 <ehird> 20:53 ehird: I imagine it was a lil bigger than that.
15:07:04 <ehird> 20:53 Deewiant: No, it wasn't.
15:07:06 <ehird> 20:53 AnMaster: wow
15:07:08 <ehird> 20:53 Deewiant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE was, though.
15:07:10 <ehird> 20:53 Deewiant: Among others.
15:07:12 <ehird> Deewiant, 2009-04-13
15:07:18 <ehird> But it didn't look like it generated a lot of discussion.
15:07:27 <ehird> I mainly remember my link
15:07:46 <AnMaster> ehird, *shrug* if it was Deewiant or you? Why should I care
15:07:47 <ehird> I got it from reddit, so — sec —
15:07:53 <AnMaster> point is it was mentioned in here months ago
15:08:04 <ehird> AnMaster: the first time it was mentioned that generated any discussion was when i did it
15:08:38 <ehird> it's like someone said "dungheap reconstruction digholes" in 2003, never mentioned it again and no discussion happened and then we had a huge discussion about said thing today
15:08:44 <ehird> and you said "well this isn't the first it's been mentioned!"
15:08:55 <ehird> which is — technically, pedantically, but only obnoxiously — true.
15:09:01 <ehird> but sanely and practically false.
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15:09:33 <AnMaster> ehird, to me the first event was very important
15:09:48 <AnMaster> a pivot point of this channel even!
15:09:54 <ehird> yes, but you're insane.
15:10:13 <ehird> omg os x includes a built-in summarizer
15:11:07 <ehird> i should put war and peace into it
15:11:13 <ehird> or the compleat #esoteric logs
15:11:24 <ehird> if I gave it old B Nomic lists it'd come out with "You're all Fucking Nuts."
15:11:46 <ehird> AnMaster: gimme a document to summarizify
15:11:56 <ehird> preferably mostly prose
15:12:07 <ehird> so eg the c standard won't work too well
15:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have it, nor have I read it, so I can't verify
15:12:35 <ehird> Summarized to 1 sentence, it will be "What the living fuck did I just read."
15:12:55 <ehird> To the Pirate Bay I go, despite owning the book, because that copy is in dead paper form!
15:12:59 <ehird> ...and in paperback.
15:13:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what about http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS
15:13:04 <ehird> God, it's awful to read.
15:14:09 <ehird> AnMaster: nah, it's one volume
15:14:12 <ehird> and you can get it in hardcover
15:14:25 <ehird> AnMaster: not really.
15:14:36 <ehird> AnMaster: the complete anthology of the h2g2 books is like >1000 pages and it's fine.
15:15:08 <ehird> add introduction by douglas adams, salt to taste
15:15:21 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/542340.txt?key=poc5eegs6ksmlsh4vifjg few-sentence summarization of google tos
15:15:31 <AnMaster> if you mean "The Ultimate hitch hikers guide to the galaxy" (omnibus edition) I have it in paperback
15:15:37 <ehird> apart from the second, it does really well
15:15:45 <ehird> gets all the main points
15:16:19 <ehird> AnMaster: no, not that one.
15:16:41 <ehird> 15:16 AnMaster: ehird, do it on the GPL
15:16:41 <ehird> 15:16 ehird: AnMaster: no, not that one.
15:17:11 <AnMaster> and I mentally connected it to the h2g2
15:17:15 <AnMaster> also what one did you mean then
15:17:30 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/542344.txt?key=lcpefjknwnww3glcv8er0a
15:17:40 <ehird> it sort of missed the whole redistribution terms sort of thing
15:17:43 <ehird> licenses aren't very prosey
15:17:52 <ehird> AnMaster: and i don't know what it's called
15:18:25 <ehird> AnMaster: incidentally, are you aware of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Another_Thing..._%28novel%29 ?
15:18:31 <ehird> AnMaster: need to pirate it first
15:18:47 <ehird> considering it has a bunch of weird characters, i doubt there are many ebooks of it :D
15:18:55 <ehird> (might all be in unicode, but)
15:19:34 <ehird> in its programming languages thing
15:19:38 <ehird> it predates unicode after all
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15:20:42 <AnMaster> the last book ended in a way preventing further books didn't it?
15:20:52 <AnMaster> that doesn't stop things in there
15:21:03 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not sure how he's going to get around the earth being destroyed along the entire probability axis
15:21:09 <ehird> (and everyone on it)
15:21:25 <ehird> 270+ Popular Science Books // hooray for torrent file selection
15:21:47 <ehird> of .djvus and .pdfs
15:21:50 <ehird> some ebook format shit
15:21:55 <ehird> some ebook format shit
15:22:03 <AnMaster> you said it all the 270 books was in one file?
15:22:36 <ehird> all in one .uif, which contains .djvus and .pdfs. presumably, .uif is a file format for software & hardware ebook packs
15:22:40 <ehird> what is hard for you to understand about this
15:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't know what uif was!
15:23:11 <ehird> i don't know but i'm not downloading 2gb to find out
15:23:26 <ehird> if they were separate files i could select just GEB.
15:23:51 <ehird> * Douglas Hofstadter - Godel Escher Bach.zip 24 Mb
15:25:33 <ehird> or be in a bloated ebook format
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15:25:36 <ehird> or, it's a windows virus.
15:25:47 <ehird> oerjan: BE VEWY VEWY FWIGHTENED
15:25:55 <ehird> THEY ARE COMING AFTER YOUR WINDOWS
15:26:24 <AnMaster> ehird, did the nasal demons clean them first?
15:26:40 <ehird> AnMaster: they just clean the api.
15:26:40 <oerjan> then they can have _my_ virus. *atchoo*
15:27:03 <ehird> it might not necessarily be clean afterwards
15:28:43 <oerjan> being nasal demons, they probably wash it _with_ snot
15:35:32 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a scanned GEB… in multiple .docs
15:38:48 <ehird> AnMaster: ew, it's just ascii-ized
15:39:07 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: incidentally, are you aware of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Another_Thing..._%28novel%29 ?
15:39:24 <oerjan> yet another point for always trusting your first impression
15:43:42 <ehird> Apply for your Free 60 day Trial
15:43:42 <ehird> Experience the power of OpenSPARC free for 60 days with a Sun SPARC Enterprise Server with CoolThreads technology.
15:43:44 <ehird> For a full 60 days you can try Sun's coolest servers at your site—with no risk, no commitment and no charge. At the end of the trial period, you can buy the trial unit or return it—no questions asked. Benefit from a full 60-day trial in your production environment:
15:43:50 <ehird> AnMaster: oerjan: do you know how to change identity?
15:43:53 <ehird> i have some theft to do.
15:44:16 <ehird> step 4. SUN SERVER
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15:47:30 <oerjan> wait, DMM _edited_ yesterday's annotation
15:48:50 <oerjan> for once, my obsessive compulsion to check i haven't missed a day pays out :D
15:50:02 <ehird> fun fact: we have flying cars,, they're called PEOPLE
15:50:56 <oerjan> that was today, not yesterday
15:51:23 <ehird> oerjan: i was just being absurdist.
15:51:48 <oerjan> insufficiently absurd. try mermaids.
15:52:00 <ehird> mermaids are basically flies though.
15:52:14 <oerjan> that theory sounds fishy
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15:53:38 <oerjan> a very random netsplit
15:54:16 <ehird> i need to write that p2p encrypted chat thing
15:54:20 <ehird> netsplits always consist of one person :)
15:54:27 -!- randomity has joined.
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15:54:30 <ehird> well unless you're that person
15:54:34 <ehird> then it consists of everyone else
15:54:43 <oerjan> um there were definitely two there
15:54:51 <ehird> 15:54 ehird: i need to write that p2p encrypted chat thing
15:54:57 <ehird> READING COMPREHENSION!!! YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!
15:55:20 <AnMaster> what does it have to do with netsplits
15:55:26 <oerjan> ehird: the AnMaster virus is spreading. be vewy afwaid.
15:56:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:57:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: that would make it vulnerable to actual irc netsplits
15:57:40 <ehird> Dum dum dum dum dumb.
16:08:28 <ehird> an isp of some kind offered a free (commercial) game if you signed up for them
16:08:38 <ehird> but somehow it didn't actually require you to sign up for them
16:08:46 <ehird> so you could just pick a game and address and they'd deliver it to you :D
16:08:52 <ehird> i think i still have it
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16:16:24 <ehird> AnMaster: it was uh i don't remember, some sci-fi racing game of some sort, all the others looked crap, it was quite fun
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16:23:12 <ehird> you know, even if Cheney on the M.T.A. wasn't a cool garbage collection algorithm
16:23:16 <ehird> i'd still use it just for the name
16:23:28 <ehird> augur: hey can you explain a linguistic quirk i have?
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17:06:32 <ehird> AnMaster: i always say "a h*" e.g. "a halo", and hate people who say "an halo", because it sounds dumbtarded. but I just realised today that I'd say "an honor killing"
17:06:38 <ehird> and "a honor killing" sounds dumbtarded.
17:06:44 <ehird> and I'm wondering why the fuck, and what logic's behind it
17:06:49 <ehird> maybe the two Hs are different
17:06:59 <ehird> they don't sound the same to me at least
17:07:04 <ehird> when you put an in front
17:07:09 <ehird> honor is like 'onor
17:07:12 <ehird> halo is like haylow
17:08:11 <Deewiant> One h is silent, the other isn't.
17:08:50 <pikhq> Man. It's crazy how much faster my system is now.
17:09:06 <pikhq> It's also a shame that I've got a dead 500G drive now, instead of a working one.
17:09:21 <ehird> pikhq: Did you go DDR3?
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17:10:06 <ehird> Wasn't it only $30 or something? :P
17:10:33 <pikhq> $30 more. Welcome to the real world, where people spend less money sometimes.
17:12:02 <ehird> If I was going to do a major upgrade, and it was $30 for a good amount of extra performance and make my equipment last longer for upgrades, and also it involved getting parts from a respected company (Crucial) instead of a no-name brand like that DDR2 RAM, I'd certainly go for it.
17:12:43 <ehird> 17:11 Barhine: NE1 HERE goin to the singularity university?
17:12:50 <ehird> I suspect him of being underqualified.
17:13:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: i always say "a h*" e.g. "a halo", and hate people who say "an halo", because it sounds dumbtarded. but I just realised today that I'd say "an honor killing" <-- easy
17:14:01 <pikhq> Most of the reason for me getting new stuff was freaking hardware failure.
17:14:03 <AnMaster> it depends on the sound, not the spelling
17:14:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you learn this when you have English as a second language
17:14:31 <ehird> Yeah, I don't really know much about English, I can just speak it
17:14:40 <AnMaster> ehird, same for me with Swedish
17:14:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Most people don't learn that?
17:15:14 <pikhq> That a vs. an is dependent on the following sound, not the letter?
17:15:35 <pikhq> (thus why 'an halo' sounds dumbtarded)
17:15:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is what I said everyone learnt when you use English as a second language
17:15:43 <ehird> But I couldn't tell the h in "halo" vs "honor"
17:15:56 <ehird> they're quite close for me.
17:15:59 <pikhq> ehird: I thought it was obvious there, too.
17:16:11 <ehird> my dialect is weird
17:16:15 <pikhq> Granted, in American English, they are more distinguishable.
17:16:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it sounds like "halo" and "onor"
17:16:17 <ehird> it's incredibly nondescript
17:16:21 <ehird> as paradoxical as that sounds
17:16:22 <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
17:16:38 <ehird> `addquote <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
17:16:39 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
17:16:43 <ehird> And there is no I in team!
17:17:35 <pikhq> ehird: I made my equipment last longer for upgrades by getting a freaking current-gen CPU. That sufficient? ;)
17:18:00 <ehird> I'd say something about sockets and motherboards, but I won't.
17:19:40 <ehird> > 'h' `elem "honour"
17:19:41 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `"'
17:19:42 <ehird> > 'h' `elem` "honour"
17:19:46 <ehird> Deewiant: Orally?!
17:20:13 <pikhq> > let 'h' `elem` "honour" = False in 'h' `elem` "honour"
17:20:40 <Deewiant> If you want to be pedantic, there's no h in "ɒnər"
17:20:56 <Deewiant> But it's all honour anyway :-P
17:21:06 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, (let x = y in x) is y.
17:21:18 <ehird> > let Nothing = 2 in Nothing
17:21:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Maybe.Maybe t))
17:21:23 <ehird> > let 2 = 3 in Nothing
17:21:33 <ehird> Except when I mess it up thrice in a row.
17:21:51 <pikhq> ehird: That's because Nothing is not a function, it's a type constructor. ;)
17:22:08 <ehird> pikhq: "2 = 3" sir.
17:22:16 <pikhq> And 2 is a literal, not a function.
17:22:18 <ehird> Nothing was just a mi steak.
17:22:26 <Deewiant> How can you let a literal = something?
17:22:32 <ehird> Deewiant: pattern matching
17:22:41 <pikhq> Only works on valid function names.
17:22:46 <Deewiant> Since when can you match against numbers?
17:22:46 <ehird> Deewiant: it's just like 'f 2 = ...' or 'case x of ...'
17:22:54 <ehird> Deewiant: (Just a)
17:23:14 <Deewiant> So why doesn't the match, y'know, fail?
17:23:26 <ehird> > let Nothing = Just 2 in Nothing
17:23:43 <ehird> Deewiant: because let-bindings don't fail.
17:23:46 * pikhq does a quick bit of shouting at Xorg
17:23:53 <ehird> good question though. ask your mother^U#haskell
17:24:09 <pikhq> "AllowEmptyInput is on, devices using drivers 'kbd' or 'mouse' will be disabled."
17:24:10 <Deewiant> Because if you just match against a constant value
17:24:13 <pikhq> WHY IS THAT A FEATURE.
17:24:31 <ehird> pikhq: Because X is stupid.
17:24:49 <Deewiant> It's just that you're not binding anything
17:24:52 <lambdabot> * Exception: <interactive>:1:137-152: Irrefutable pattern failed for patter...
17:24:56 <pikhq> ehird: It's a shame that it's the best thing on Linux, isn't it?
17:24:59 <ehird> i was gonna say that
17:25:15 <pikhq> It's a matter of "it works *just* well enough to prevent people from throwing it away."
17:25:18 <ehird> but analogued too far to 'case x of Just a -> bind a'
17:25:33 <ehird> pikhq: That's FOSS for you.
17:25:48 <ehird> pikhq: http://imgur.com/hG5aT.jpg all imageshack images return this
17:26:10 <pikhq> Lemme just say that I'm hopeful that Chrome OS makes for a tolerable windowing system.
17:26:19 <ehird> helloooooooooooooo
17:26:25 <ehird> huge website cracked by the anti-sec guys
17:26:43 <pikhq> I'd look but I don't have X working yet.
17:26:56 <ehird> well that won't work for text
17:27:00 <ehird> or a framebuffer viewer
17:27:13 <pikhq> If I cared enough I could set up links2.
17:27:24 <ehird> pikhq: You know who i'm talking about right :p
17:27:33 <ehird> astalavista and related guys who posted the log
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17:30:51 <pikhq> Just had to turn on HAL.
17:31:01 <ehird> Xorg uses HAL now.
17:31:07 <pikhq> Thereby letting X automagically do configuration.
17:31:17 <ehird> Although HAL is being replaced.
17:31:21 <ehird> Apparently with something less XML.
17:31:25 <ehird> Which is always good.
17:31:32 <ehird> pikhq: Yuhuh; I forget what it's called.
17:31:40 <ehird> I'm just speaking from memory
17:31:43 <ehird> It might be EVEN MORE XML
17:31:48 <pikhq> Now, gimme a few minutes while I install Conkeror.
17:31:59 <ehird> Are you still using Dumbtoo?
17:32:12 <ehird> wow that was a terrible way of insulting gentoo
17:32:17 <pikhq> No, I'm using Gentoo.
17:33:25 <ehird> pikhq: http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2009/Jul/0095.html is text-only transcript
17:33:35 <ehird> also has a transcript
17:33:40 <ehird> well, a two-line one
17:34:09 <pikhq> Amusingly, the limiting factor so far has not been compile speed.
17:34:16 <pikhq> It's been my Internet connection.
17:34:30 <ehird> Uhh, interwebs are generally the slow point in any system.
17:34:38 <ehird> Or HD, if without networking.
17:34:52 <pikhq> That's rather CPU-bound. ;)
17:35:11 <ehird> You won't be liking your computer when I buy a BEOWULF CLUSTER!!!!!!
17:40:43 <ehird> Meanwhile, some people are retired and they can't help it they were born with lack of oxygen.
17:40:56 <ehird> [http://imgur.com/vKy5j.jpg, via reddit]
17:43:36 <augur> "a honor" would be completely wrong, because the word "honor" begins with a vowel (the his spelling, and therefore irrelevant to this issue)
17:43:49 <augur> on the other hand "an halo" is extremely unusual
17:44:08 <ehird> augur: i see people say "an h" a lot more than i ever would
17:44:19 <ehird> for things i pronounce with an h (← lol example)
17:44:39 <augur> most of all because "an" followed by actual h sounds always requires, as far as i can tell
17:44:49 <augur> second-syllable stress
17:45:09 <ehird> augur: so "an hexagon" could work too?
17:45:26 <ehird> i can see "an hexagon" working, "an historic" sort of
17:45:40 <ehird> an hexagon could work though
17:45:46 <ehird> an '(very faint h)exagon
17:45:59 <augur> ofcourse, the an-h rule is only partial
17:46:08 <augur> not everyone has that in their phonology
17:46:15 <augur> but its almost /always/ that rule
17:46:33 <augur> and its usually, if not always, hI
17:46:40 <ehird> @americans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/380923.stm?
17:46:50 <augur> not hA or h-anything else
17:46:54 <ehird> "A booming economy has generated massive tax revenues, and President Bill Clinton now predicts that it would take the government just 16 years to reduce the public debt to zero."
17:47:11 <Deewiant> augur: herb is unisyllabic and can be stressed, no?
17:47:20 <ehird> oh god i hate "an herb"
17:47:20 <augur> has to be stressed
17:47:22 <ehird> want to FUCKING KILL
17:47:42 <pikhq> Yes, and under Bill Clinton's policies, it would have...
17:47:50 <Deewiant> ehird: dictionary.com lists it as the primary pronunciation :-P
17:47:59 <bsmntbombdood_> i wonder if it's possible to get a monitor with real glass
17:48:00 <ehird> Deewiant: You will DIE.
17:48:06 <pikhq> Granted, that's because a large part of Bill Clinton's domestic policy consisted of "don't fuck things up".
17:48:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Yes, it's called an iPhone.
17:48:13 <ehird> Well, I think that's just covered with glass.
17:48:24 <ehird> pikhq: Clinton was still center-right.
17:48:30 <Deewiant> /ɜrb or, especially Brit., hɜrb/
17:48:30 <ehird> More right than center.
17:48:36 <ehird> Deewiant: dictionary.com is filthy mercan
17:48:41 <bsmntbombdood_> ehird: this monitor has bug-juice stains all over it that i can't get off
17:48:42 <ehird> America is actually merca
17:48:42 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, and "don't fuck things up" is a rather center-right policy.
17:48:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Well, don't do that.
17:48:52 <augur> like deewiant says
17:48:59 <pikhq> A center-right policy in the realms of sanity, but still. ;)
17:49:02 <augur> "an herb" is obviously required in american english
17:49:05 <Deewiant> ehird: There's an interesting usage note at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/herb (near the middle)
17:49:06 <ehird> pikhq: I attack you with my far-left politics!
17:49:11 <augur> because of the h-less-ness of the word in american english
17:49:19 <ehird> MISSINGNO learned DF*@*~¶ˆ§
17:49:27 <pikhq> ehird: I'm far-left myself...
17:49:38 <ehird> You, and your facts.
17:49:43 <pikhq> It's just that, being in the US, I've learned to be appreciative of anyone that's sane.
17:49:45 <ehird> Didn't you listen to David Byrne?
17:49:59 * pikhq mutters at X some more
17:50:06 <pikhq> My alt keys have become Alt-GR keys!
17:50:44 <augur> ehird: very frequently, tho, an-h without /I/ is artificial
17:50:47 <ehird> Deewiant: which one in particular
17:50:56 <ehird> augur: note — i don't grok ipa
17:51:06 <augur> well, this is sampa, but
17:51:11 <augur> I is the sound in "it"
17:51:21 <ehird> sampa is just a lexicographicological replacement of IPA :P
17:51:29 <ehird> Deewiant: What do you mean?
17:51:32 <ehird> What entry are yout alking about?
17:51:35 <augur> if you're australian, lets say
17:51:43 <augur> "it" has a diphthong
17:51:55 <Deewiant> It's in a grey box in the middle.
17:51:59 <ehird> augur: Hiiiiiiiiiiiii.
17:52:09 <ehird> Deewiant: thought you meant middle of first entry, or middle entry
17:55:03 <ehird> "The Endor Holocaust was a theory put forward by Imperial propaganda agents after the Battle of Endor. It was theorized that after the destruction of the second Death Star over Endor in 4 ABY, the moon and its inhabitants were devastated by falling debris.[1] However, the moon and its primary sentient species, the Ewoks, were both still in existence long after the Death Star's destruction, and the Alliance of Free Planets established a base on the moon.[
17:55:05 <ehird> 2] Much of the debris of the superweapon was sent through a hyperspace wormhole that briefly opened up when the Death Star's hyperdrive regulator was destroyed"
17:55:08 <ehird> ↑ NOT A COPOUT WHATSOEVR
17:56:56 <ehird> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endor_Holocaust
17:57:10 <ehird> As if Wikipedia would have an article on the ENDOR HOLOCAUST.
18:01:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: isn't it 2mbit dsl or something?
18:01:15 <ehird> okay i retract my statement
18:01:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: shitty area for internet i guess?
18:03:29 <pikhq> I'm on 1 megabit, myself.
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19:00:24 <ehird> A tall order, for you, sir.
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19:16:17 <ais523> ok, so it seems the former CEO for SCO Germany owns unXis's German website
19:19:10 <ehird> unxis is from sco it seems?
19:19:17 <ehird> lol "The software business is to be sold to unXis, whilst the SCO Group will continue the business of litigating against Novell, IBM"
19:19:33 <ehird> now i want to kill off everyone part of SCO even more :)
19:19:59 <ais523> unXis is where they're trying to 'sell' all the assets that are actually worth something
19:20:06 <ais523> leaving SCO behind as a litigation shell company
19:20:23 <ais523> IBM's lawyers are upset about this, and subpoenad unXis massively
19:21:28 <ehird> [[ Saturday, July 11, 109
19:21:28 <ehird> We have recently redesigned our web site,]]
19:26:12 <ehird> Microsoft Exchange replaces the portion of the mail system that stores messages waiting to be read, which is currently implemented using several servers running a open-source program called Cyrus and a mail protocol known as IMAP, the Internet Message Access Protocol.
19:26:13 <ehird> — http://tech.mit.edu/V129/N29/webmail.html
19:26:16 <ehird> how could you, MIT!
19:27:24 <ehird> from later in the article: "The other major change to MIT’s mail system is the introduction of Symantec’s Brightmail AntiSpam filters and quarantine system, a web-based system which has replaced the Apache SpamAssassin filters."
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19:29:19 <pikhq> Long ways away from the beauty that was Project Athena.
19:31:26 <ehird> pikhq: "Athena continues in use today, providing a ubiquitous computing platform for education at MIT; plans are to continue its use indefinitely."
19:31:36 <ehird> Originally, the Athena release used Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) as the base operating system for all hardware platforms. By the mid 1990s, public clusters consisted of the Solaris operating system on SPARC hardware from Sun Microsystems, and the Irix operating system on MIPS hardware from Silicon Graphics, Inc. (SGI). SGI hardware was dropped in anticipation of the end of Irix production in 2006. Linux-Athena was introduced in version 9, with
19:31:38 <ehird> the Red Hat Enterprise Linux operating system running on cheaper x86 or x86-64 hardware. Athena 9 also replaced the internally-developed "DASH" menu system and Motif Window Manager (mwm) with a more modern GNOME desktop. Athena 10,[3]planned for 2009,[4] will be based on Ubuntu Linux (derived from Debian) only. Support for Solaris is expected to be dropped almost entirely.[5]
19:31:44 <ehird> Doesn't sound dead to me
19:32:01 <pikhq> ehird: Shit like that makes it sound like they're killing it. :P
19:32:05 <ehird> pikhq: though that article mentions you can use Google Apps For My Domain as well
19:32:16 <ehird> it may be a perverse way to get people to use that instead :-D
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20:11:30 <oerjan> <Deewiant> One h is silent, the other isn't.
20:11:53 <oerjan> a/an is based on sound, not spelling.
20:14:19 <oerjan> a rule which is obvious to everyone _except_ the native speakers? :D
20:14:20 <ehird> pikhq: haha, after looking at the athena page on the mit site when you said they were killing it, i idly clicked around. they say that on your personal laptop/desktop, if you use linux, you should use red hat enterprise 5 and they'll supply a license
20:14:23 <ehird> there are no words
20:14:31 <ehird> oerjan: i think pikhq is a native speaker...
20:14:47 <ehird> wait it was ↑↑↑↑↑ by that message
20:14:50 <pikhq> For certain definitions of native, yes.
20:15:15 <pikhq> I couldn't speak until I was like 4.
20:15:18 <oerjan> ehird: bear with me i've only gotten to the second person to point it out yet :D
20:15:33 <pikhq> My language learning is therefore a bit... Idiosyncratic.
20:15:44 <ehird> pikhq: could you read when 4?
20:15:53 <pikhq> I could read when I was 2.
20:16:21 <ehird> i think i learned to read and speak at like roughly the same time
20:16:23 <ehird> when i was about 2
20:16:28 <ehird> wait, earlier than that
20:16:36 <ehird> i know that i knew the word "vocabulary" when i was 2
20:16:40 <ehird> so i probably didn't start then
20:20:09 <oerjan> hah, i could read when i was in the womb
20:20:23 <oerjan> too bad the library delivery service was horrible there
20:20:48 <oerjan> but then they _did_ have to go upward in the snow, both ways.
20:21:22 <oerjan> nowadays there isn't so much snow, we even have lawns to tell you to _get_ _off_
20:21:22 <ehird> oerjan: so your mother was a one-sided hill?
20:21:33 <oerjan> no no, we lived on one
20:21:43 <ehird> that's much less interesting.
20:21:54 <ehird> i was imagining them walking up, both ways, then just dropping it in like a hole like in a volcano
20:21:56 <ehird> and it'd just find its way
20:23:05 <oerjan> no volcanos in mainland norway, alas
20:23:55 <oerjan> there is one at Jan Mayen island, though
20:25:09 <ehird> it's an oerjancano.
20:27:49 <oerjan> <ehird> my dialect is weird <-- are you from 'artford, 'ereford or 'ampshire, where 'urricanes 'ardly hever 'appen?
20:28:23 <ehird> (If you imagined that as an extremely loud, guttural and raging scream, full of bloodlus, you got it right.)
20:28:35 <oerjan> why must i die merely for misquoting My Fair Lady? :(
20:29:12 <oerjan> or maybe you have something against people from 'artford, 'ereford and 'ampshire.
20:29:13 <ehird> Bloodlust. That's why.
20:29:59 <oerjan> also, i remember you're from 'exham.
20:30:31 <ehird> oerjan: not from. not from.
20:30:41 <ehird> we've moved like. 5 times.
20:31:20 <ehird> i was actually born in the south.
20:31:44 <ehird> but you couldn't really notice either way i don't think; my accent is, as I've said, weird in its nondescriptity.
20:32:18 <ehird> erm. let's say hemel hempstead. in england.
20:32:31 * oerjan has a cold and might be delirious without noting
20:32:31 <ehird> i was only born there tough
20:32:37 <ehird> iirc nobody in the family lived there at the time
20:32:45 <oerjan> 'emel 'empstead it is, then.
20:33:06 <ehird> I wonder what circumstances lead to me being born there
20:34:27 <oerjan> by "weird", do you mean your dialect is actually a mingling of all the places you've lived?
20:34:52 <ehird> that's the thing, I don't think it's regional at all
20:34:56 <ehird> apart from being british
20:42:21 <oerjan> irssi underline only one word when doing that?
20:42:36 <ehird> oerjan: lame client and your FORMATTING
20:42:45 <ehird> oerjan: also, it's just science
20:42:56 <ehird> oerjan: _ ok look for the next _ aha inbetween is realizes, italicize that
20:42:58 <ehird> normal text something
20:43:02 <ehird> oop a start of italics _
20:43:09 <ehird> oh well. just put it in there.
20:43:43 <oerjan> what i mean is i cannot get it to underline more than word word, whether i _do_this_ or _do this_
20:44:07 * pikhq tries to remembber the key combination for underlining
20:44:10 <oerjan> hm, _what__about__this_?
20:44:27 <ehird> oerjan: does it really matter to you? we can't see the underlines.
20:44:30 <oerjan> it's not about real underlining anyway
20:44:32 <ehird> pikhq: we have no colours
20:44:50 <ehird> but many clients don't
20:44:56 <ehird> i.e., all graphical ones and all simple text ones
20:44:58 <ehird> and probably some others.
20:44:59 <oerjan> ehird: well i guess it's just an annoying irssi display quirk
20:45:02 <ehird> god, that joke was AnMaster quailty
20:45:04 <pikhq> Specifically, irssi uses ncurses.
20:45:12 <ehird> pikhq: it can use any curses, can't it
20:45:26 <fizzie> Blame the fe-common/core/fe-messages.c function expand_emphasis. That's the culprit.
20:45:31 <oerjan> ehird: wait, what joke?
20:45:38 <ehird> fizzie: s/Blame/Patch/ :-P
20:45:44 * pikhq mutters at TeXlive
20:45:44 <ehird> 20:44 pikhq: ehird: Curses.
20:45:45 <ehird> 20:44 ehird: irssi uses curses
20:45:47 <ehird> 20:44 ehird: but many clients don't
20:45:49 <ehird> 20:44 ehird: i.e., all graphical ones and all simple text ones
20:45:51 <ehird> 20:44 ehird: and probably some others.
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20:45:56 <ehird> pikhq: isn't texlive that thing that's like 100GB?
20:46:16 <pikhq> Why must it be distributed as a series of very small tarballs?
20:46:21 <ehird> 20:44 ehird: pikhq: we have no colours
20:46:22 <ehird> 20:44 ehird: in here
20:46:23 <ehird> 20:44 ehird: so no formatting
20:46:25 <ehird> he was exclaiming it
20:46:31 <ehird> and i took it as the library curses
20:46:37 <ehird> pikhq: isn't for os x
20:46:41 <ehird> it's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge dmg
20:46:47 <pikhq> ehird: Is for source code.
20:46:56 <ehird> pikhq: you're trying to compile tex?
20:46:58 <ehird> that way lies madness
20:46:58 <oerjan> chalk me up for one AnMaster quality joke comprehension, then
20:47:06 <pikhq> ehird: No, Portage is.
20:47:14 <ehird> pikhq: slap it. it's silly.
20:47:23 <pikhq> The fetching is driving me crazy, though.
20:47:34 <fizzie> ehird: I installed TeXlive by compiling it with macports, and it worked just fine, as long as "just fine" means you're a-okay with waiting a couple of hours.
20:47:53 <ehird> fizzie: i just downloaded the dmg and clicked and let it pollute my namespace and give me a few kind of lame graphical applications
20:47:57 <pikhq> I've got high latency. So, each 100k file takes a couple seconds to start downloading.
20:48:05 <pikhq> And Portage fetches them sequentially.
20:48:06 <ehird> apart from the long download...
20:48:09 <ehird> pikhq: just get a binary.
20:48:16 <fizzie> ehird: Years of Debian usage has made the "I need something -> fire up the package manager" a reflex.
20:48:26 <ehird> fizzie: yeah; it doesn't pay off on the mac though
20:48:28 <pikhq> ehird: But that's not in the package manager.
20:48:30 <ehird> even fink, apt-based, always compils
20:48:43 <ehird> pikhq: surely you can hack up a package file? or perhaps use something like checkinstall?
20:48:51 <ehird> no? your package manager sucks!
20:49:06 <pikhq> But that requires maintanence.
20:49:16 <fizzie> "/* check that the beginning marker starts a word, and that the matching end marker ends a word */" is what the underlining thing tests.
20:49:18 <pikhq> At bare minimum paying attention to when TeXlive updates.
20:49:27 <ehird> pikhq: not really. TeXlive is updated once every year or something like that, and it barely ever changes
20:49:31 <ehird> having used it across two versions i think
20:49:34 <ehird> did not notice one difference
20:49:42 <fizzie> And the "ending marker" is the next _ from the first one.
20:49:47 <ehird> TeX never, ever changes; and derivatives rarely do too
20:49:50 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
20:49:52 <ehird> so only minor updates to related tools
20:50:06 -!- inurinternet has joined.
20:50:07 <fizzie> So in that case _this should underline a long thing_ but I'm not really sure.
20:50:13 <pikhq> Okay, so that requires one-time effort to make a binary package.
20:50:38 <oerjan> _then why does this not work_
20:50:46 <ehird> pikhq: With checkinstall, it hooks into make and everything. You just give it a name, version, license (autodetected, incidentally), and maybe even a description, hit enter, and it's installed.
20:51:10 <ehird> I know it can do .debs and .rpms; let's see if it does whatever portage dose.
20:51:12 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I know.
20:51:15 <pikhq> That's more work than emerge.
20:51:31 <oerjan> fizzie: well this might not be the newest version of irssi, come to think of it.
20:51:35 <pikhq> Portage's binary packages are tarballs with metadata appended on the end.
20:51:44 <fizzie> oerjan: /* allow only *word* emphasis, not *multiple words* */ if (!settings_get_bool("emphasis_multiword")) { ...
20:51:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe you should set that setting.
20:52:44 <AnMaster> compiling tex is not mad ehird
20:52:55 <AnMaster> portage has done it quite a few times for me
20:53:00 <pikhq> But apparently downloading it is.
20:53:00 <oerjan> now to wait until i discover that looks _horrible with code_
20:53:05 <fizzie> When in problem, source-dive. (Which I think is the word nethack people use for looking at the source when wondering something about the game mechanics.)
20:53:20 <oerjan> not that there is any code in this channel, anyhow *ducks*
20:53:54 <ehird> 12:51:12 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I know.
20:53:55 <pikhq> > let kill = "KILL " ++ in kill "OERJAN!!"
20:53:55 <oerjan> apparently ? is not considered end of word
20:53:56 <ehird> 12:51:15 <pikhq> That's more work than emerge.
20:53:57 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
20:54:00 <ehird> pikhq: it's quicker, in total time
20:54:05 <fizzie> The "?*" thing does not match the "!ishighalnum(end[-1])" test.
20:54:31 <pikhq> ehird: Sure, but automated time is cheaper than my time.
20:55:16 <pikhq> "Wait while emerge does its thing" is more time-consuming for *me* than "wget&&tar -xf&&cd&&./configure&&make&&checkinstall"
20:55:17 <ehird> fizzie: perlists coding C?
20:55:31 <ehird> pikhq: ./configure&&make? I was talking about a binary package.
20:55:39 <ehird> More like "wget&&tar -xf&&cd&&checkinstall".
20:55:55 <ehird> For the minimal amount of extra effort in the former, it is a lot quicker.
20:56:03 <pikhq> In this case, "emerge a lot of packages here"
20:56:05 <fizzie> They seem to use that sort of idioms rather ofter, with char-pointers.
20:56:16 <ehird> fizzie: anti-idiom, more like
20:56:38 <fizzie> There's also a lot of places where it's combined with something like "(pos > 0 && bgn[-1] != ' ')" to avoid pointing at bad places.
20:56:39 <oerjan> pikhq: you need parentheses around "KILL " ++
20:56:53 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, sure enough.
20:57:06 <pikhq> Don't I feel silly.
20:57:12 <fizzie> oerjan: You're helping him kill you? How... polite.
20:57:23 <oerjan> fizzie: we aim to please
20:57:26 <pikhq> > let kill = ("KILL " ++) in kill "OERJAN!!"
20:58:00 <ehird> > let kill whoeverItIs = "KILL " ++ whoeverItIs ++ "!!" in kill "oerjan"
20:58:06 <ehird> > let kill whoeverItIs = "KILL " ++ map toUpper whoeverItIs ++ "!!" in kill "oerjan"
20:58:27 <ehird> > let kill whoeverItIs = "KILL " ++ map toUpper whoeverItIs ++ ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!!" in kill "oerjan"
20:58:28 <lambdabot> "KILL OERJAN, FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!!"
20:58:37 <pikhq> ehird: Needs more pointless.
20:58:45 <ehird> pikhq: Your mom's pointless, but okay:
20:59:03 <ehird> > let kill = ("KILL " ++) . map toUpper in kill "test"
20:59:23 <ehird> > let kill = ("KILL " ++) . (++ ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!") . map toUpper in kill "test"
20:59:25 <lambdabot> "KILL TEST, FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!"
20:59:41 <ehird> > let kill = ("KILL " ++) . (++ ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!!") . map toUpper in kill "oerjan"
20:59:42 <lambdabot> "KILL OERJAN, FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!!"
21:01:26 <pikhq> @let kill = ("KILL " ++) . (++ ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!!") . map toUpper
21:02:08 <oerjan> > flip (intercalate . map toUpper) ["KILL ", ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR ", "'S FLESH!!"] "pikhq"
21:02:09 <lambdabot> "KILL PIKHQ, FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR PIKHQ'S FLESH!!"
21:03:43 <oerjan> it just doesn't get more pointless than this.
21:03:58 <ehird> oerjan: mine's nicer.
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21:04:33 <pikhq> oerjan: Make it all lambda.
21:04:47 <ehird> @unpl flip (intercalate . map toUpper) ["KILL ", ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR ", "'S FLESH!!"] "pikhq"
21:04:47 <lambdabot> (intercalate (map toUpper "pikhq") ["KILL ", ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR ", "'S FLESH!!"])
21:05:31 <pikhq> @unpl (KILL " ++) . (++ ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!") . map toUpper
21:05:41 <pikhq> @unpl ("KILL " ++) . (++ ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!") . map toUpper
21:05:41 <lambdabot> (\ e -> "KILL " ++ ((map toUpper e) ++ ", FOR I HAVE AN INSATIABLE BLOODLUST FOR HIS FLESH!!!!!"))
21:05:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
21:06:00 <pikhq> That's pretty boring too.
21:06:14 <oerjan> it seems to ignore operator precedence
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21:25:26 <ehird> pikhq: about project athena:
21:25:31 <ehird> pikhq: your recent grumbling at Xorg?
21:25:36 <ehird> Athena caused the invention of X11.
21:25:42 <ehird> Or, rather, X in general.
21:25:58 <pikhq> X11 is an 80s solution.
21:25:59 <ehird> Bloody hell, and Xaw.
21:26:06 <ehird> I hope they don't still use Xaw :-)
21:26:27 <pikhq> XDM uses it still.
21:26:40 <pikhq> As do a few core X utils.
21:26:49 <ehird> [[Linux-Athena was introduced in version 9, with the Red Hat Enterprise Linux operating system running on cheaper x86 or x86-64 hardware. Athena 9 also replaced the internally-developed "DASH" menu system and Motif Window Manager (mwm) with a more modern GNOME desktop.]]
21:26:53 <ehird> Well, that's quite sane.
21:26:59 <ehird> Changing to Ubuntu even saner.
21:26:59 <pikhq> Most of that, of course, is provided just because it always has been.
21:27:12 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, I've used xdm and xman.
21:27:16 <ehird> I opened xedit once, too.
21:27:49 <ehird> pikhq: I find the best way to approach X is to install quite an old, minimalist window manager, lose your aesthetic sense and tell yourself 80s marketing speak about it.
21:27:58 <pikhq> Project Athena also brought us LDAP and Kerberos...
21:28:00 <ehird> It's quite awesome (in the old sense) before you use a more modern system.
21:28:14 <ehird> pikhq: And thin clients.
21:28:19 * oerjan vaguely recalls actually using xedit for some things, way back
21:28:21 <pikhq> I first used IceWM when I started on X, IIRC.
21:28:21 <ehird> But that Doesn't Count.
21:28:37 <ehird> IceWM would be better if you didn't have to click on menus to expand them
21:28:59 <ehird> a port of icewm to gtk would be very appealing imo
21:29:12 <fizzie> I think I installed some sort of fvwm first. Maybe.
21:29:27 <ehird> pikhq: I have blotted gtk1 from my mind.
21:32:32 <AnMaster> <pikhq> But apparently downloading it is. <-- why?
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21:50:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: 100k tarballs.
21:50:23 <pikhq> When you have a 2 second latency.
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23:56:24 <ehird> xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor xor
23:57:24 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits a, Bits (a -> a -> a)) => (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a
23:57:55 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits a, Bits (a -> a -> a)) => a -> a -> a
23:58:04 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits (a -> a -> a), Bits a, Bits ((a -> a -> a) -> (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a)) => (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a
23:58:11 <oerjan> :t xor xor xor xor xor
23:58:12 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits (a -> a -> a), Bits a, Bits ((a -> a -> a) -> (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a)) => a -> a -> a
23:58:19 <oerjan> :t xor xor xor xor xor xor
23:58:20 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits ((a -> a -> a) -> (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a), Bits (a -> a -> a), Bits a, Bits (((a -> a -> a) -> (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a) -> ((a -> a -> a) -> (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a) -
23:58:20 <lambdabot> > (a -> a -> a) -> (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a)) => (a -> a -> a) -> a -> a -> a
23:58:50 <oerjan> this does not seem likely to converge
23:59:17 <ehird> oerjan: are you ever seriously going to have an instance of Bits a => Bits (a -> a -> a)?
23:59:24 <ehird> i can't even think of a way that could possibly work.
00:00:42 <oerjan> instance Bits a => Bits (a -> a -> a) where (xor f g) x y = f x y `xor` g x y
00:01:16 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong! You cheating scum!
00:01:24 <ehird> oerjan: i'm sure there's more than xor anyway
00:01:55 <oerjan> a whole heap of methods, actually
00:03:13 <oerjan> testBit is the one that could be a problem to do sanely
00:03:17 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits a) => a -> Int -> Bool
00:03:44 <ehird> with state you could do it
00:03:52 <ehird> isSigned f = thunk (waitForInput f)
00:03:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:03:58 <ehird> isSigned f = analyze (thunk (waitForInput f))
00:04:13 <oerjan> bitSize seems a bit dubious, although easy to cheat
00:04:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
00:04:38 <ehird> oerjan: as in, "don't evaluate until we get two inputs for f from the ether; then analyze the result"
00:04:50 <ehird> so forcing (isSigned f) would hang until you did (magicallyPsychicTransmission v1 v2)
00:04:59 <ehird> but haskell doesn't do such evil state :)
00:05:12 <oerjan> it needs to be polymorphic, remember?
00:05:22 <oerjan> instance Bits a => Bits (a -> a -> a)
00:05:43 <ehird> oerjan: magicallyPsychicTransmission :: Bits a => TokenOfTransmission a -> a -> a -> ()
00:06:42 <oerjan> it's not _particularly_ hard to set it undefined either
00:06:57 <ehird> oerjan: but this is more correct!
00:07:03 <ehird> albeit breaking everything else in the proess
00:07:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:15:15 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:15:17 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) (f2 :: * -> *) a b (f3 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2, Functor f3) => f (f1 (f2 (a -> b))) -> f (f1 (f2 (f3 a -> f3 b)))
00:15:35 <oerjan> yes, that one is periodic
00:15:53 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:16:03 <Gracenotes> ..however it takes some time to infer longer fmap chains
00:16:14 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:16:17 <oerjan> that doesn't mean type checking doesn't blow up :D
00:16:34 <Gracenotes> well, this is type inference. and it is decidable, just takes some time.
00:16:42 <ehird> Gracenotes: I am a Truly Accepted & Worthwhile Endeavor of the Ancient Society of the "Lambda-Bot", est. 1758.
00:16:57 <oerjan> Gracenotes: (doubly?) exponential
00:16:58 <ehird> We swear off such Foul demons as that monster "G-H-C-I".
00:17:00 <Gracenotes> @djinn (f -> f1 -> f2 -> a -> b) -> (f -> f1 -> f2 -> (f3 -> a) -> f3 -> b) -- using function instances of the above chain
00:17:10 <Gracenotes> @djinn (f -> f1 -> f2 -> a -> b) -> (f -> f1 -> f2 -> (f3 -> a) -> f3 -> b)
00:17:10 <ehird> We are pure; and fathomed we must be.
00:17:33 <Gracenotes> oddly enough, it seems that any chain of fmaps always produces djinn functions in the original order
00:17:40 <ehird> For lo, this is Flight, and this is the Holy Ghost, and our Endeavor is to Achieve the Union of these Concepts manifest.
00:17:49 <Gracenotes> just with parens. like, for instance, a b c d e -> a (b c) (d e)
00:17:54 <ehird> :t t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:18:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `((a -> b) -> f a -> f b)
00:18:07 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:18:13 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:18:18 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:18:21 <ehird> Gracenotes: I'm not spamming, stop it.
00:19:16 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:19:40 <ehird> :t fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
00:19:41 <pikhq> I'm renaming fmap.
00:19:43 <pikhq> It is now Bufallo.
00:19:53 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) (f2 :: * -> *) a b (f3 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1, Functor f2, Functor f3) => f (f1 (f2 (a -> b))) -> f (f1 (f2 (f3 a -> f3 b)))
00:20:06 <oerjan> pikhq: impossible, Bufallo is a constructor *ducks*
00:20:27 <ehird> I wish we had Caleskell.
00:20:28 <pikhq> oerjan: I am inverting the rules.
00:20:31 <Gracenotes> :t Just . Just . Just . Just . Just . Just . Just . Just
00:20:37 <lambdabot> forall a. a -> Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe a)))))))
00:20:38 <ehird> :t let (.) = fmap in (.) . . (.)
00:20:43 <ehird> :t let (.) = fmap in (.) . (. (.))
00:20:46 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) b a b1 (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f1, Functor f) => ((f1 a -> f1 b1) -> b) -> f (a -> b1) -> f b
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00:21:05 <ehird> :t let (.) = fmap in (.) . (. (.)) . (((.) . ((.) . (.)) .) . ((.) .) . (.)
00:21:14 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:21:31 <ehird> :t let (.) = fmap in (.) . ((.)) . ( ((.) . ((.) . (.)) .) . ((.) .)) . (.)
00:21:38 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) (f2 :: * -> *) (f3 :: * -> *) (f4 :: * -> *) a b (f5 :: * -> *) a1. (Functor f5, Functor f4, Functor f3, Functor f2, Functor f1, Functor f) => (a1 -> b) -> f (f1 (
00:21:38 <lambdabot> a -> a1)) -> f (f1 (f2 (f3 (f4 (f5 a))) -> f2 (f3 (f4 (f5 b)))))
00:21:39 <ehird> Gracenotes: but (.) and map are useless; they're just fmap
00:21:43 <oerjan> Gracenotes: that's not odd. anything composed from (.) can be unwound when applied, and it never swaps anything
00:21:44 <ehird> plus, "succ . [1,2,3]" looks jawsome
00:22:01 <ehird> @unpl (.) . ((.)) . (((.) . ((.) . (.)) .) . ((.) .)) . (.)
00:22:02 <oerjan> e.g. (.) a b c = a (b c)
00:22:02 <lambdabot> (\ z b c f h i l o s -> z (b c f (h i l o s)))
00:22:22 <ehird> @unpl let (.) = fmap in (.) . ((.)) . (((.) . ((.) . (.)) .) . ((.) .)) . (.)
00:22:22 <lambdabot> let { (.) = fmap} in (\ z b c f h i l o s -> z (b c f (h i l o s)))
00:22:29 <ehird> @unlet let (.) = fmap in (.) . ((.)) . (((.) . ((.) . (.)) .) . ((.) .)) . (.)
00:22:34 <ehird> BITCH YOUR FUCK BUGGER.
00:23:00 <lambdabot> forall a1 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r
00:23:05 <oerjan> Gracenotes: what is more you can do it in reverse too, except for id in the degenerate case iirc
00:23:08 <lambdabot> forall a1 a2 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
00:23:18 <lambdabot> forall a1 a2 r (m :: * -> *) (m1 :: * -> *). (Monad m, Monad m1) => m1 (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m1 (m a1) -> m1 (m a2 -> m r)
00:23:27 <ehird> > liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2
00:23:33 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
00:23:37 <Gracenotes> :t liftM2.liftM2 -- this actually a useful function
00:23:39 <ehird> :t liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2
00:24:00 <pikhq> It's like fmap on the monads!
00:24:06 <oerjan> Gracenotes: a b (c d) = (.) (a b) c d = (.) (.) a b c d
00:24:11 <ehird> :t liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2 liftM2
00:24:23 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a2 = m a2
00:24:32 <oerjan> Gracenotes: so did i a while ago
00:24:32 <ehird> oerjan: so with . we can eliminate non-(.) parens? :-D
00:24:42 <ehird> :t liftM3 (liftM2 liftM2)
00:25:04 <Gracenotes> I don't spend hours upon hours on the subtleties of (.), as it stands..
00:25:15 <Gracenotes> there is also the argument/result system
00:25:16 <oerjan> ehird: no, you might still need parentheses for composing the (.) parts
00:25:50 <ehird> Prelude Control.Monad> :t liftM3 (liftM2 liftM2)
00:25:50 <ehird> liftM3 (liftM2 liftM2)
00:25:51 <ehird> :: (Monad m, Monad ((->) a3), Monad m1) =>
00:25:53 <ehird> m1 (a3 -> a1 -> a2 -> r)
00:25:55 <ehird> -> m1 (a3 -> m a1)
00:25:59 <ehird> -> m1 (m a2 -> m r)
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00:26:44 <ehird> :t ap ap . ap . ap ap
00:26:46 <lambdabot> forall b b1 a. (((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> (b1 -> b) -> a) -> (((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> b1 -> b) -> ((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> b
00:26:49 <ehird> oerjan: Find a use, now.
00:28:20 <Gracenotes> @type undefined :: (((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> (b1 -> b) -> a) -> (((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> b1 -> b) -> ((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> b
00:28:34 <Gracenotes> undefined is always happy to be of use ^_^
00:29:00 <oerjan> that undefined was not happy, it made suicide
00:29:24 <Gracenotes> ugh. Why am I being attracted to languages that are apparently so difficult to learn
00:29:33 <ehird> I from the proof school of Haskell view undefined as that ultimate abomination; an inconsistency whereby we can show that any given statement is true, and thus true is false, and we are all very troubled about this, and indeed consider switching to total FP languages often, but then there comes an occasional time when we want to actually do something, and we are put firmly back into our senses.
00:29:39 <ehird> I looooooooove long sentences.
00:30:45 <oerjan> lessee, that ap ap . ap . ap ap has no Monad in its type
00:30:49 <Gracenotes> at first I thought I'd learn Japanese, then hopefully pick up some Kanji to eventually help with learning Chinese, and maybe learn a bit of Korean because I've heard good things about the alphabet
00:31:04 <oerjan> so it is clearly specialized to ap = s
00:31:19 <Gracenotes> it seems each of these languages requires about two years each to just reach some proficiency
00:31:20 <ehird> ghci doesn't do that
00:31:26 <ehird> ap ap . ap . ap ap
00:31:26 <ehird> :: (Monad ((->) ((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1)),
00:31:28 <ehird> Monad ((->) (((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> b1 -> b)),
00:31:30 <ehird> Monad ((->) (b1 -> b))) =>
00:31:32 <ehird> (((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> (b1 -> b) -> a)
00:31:35 <ehird> -> (((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1) -> b1 -> b)
00:31:36 <ehird> -> ((b1 -> b) -> a -> b1)
00:31:40 <ehird> incidentally, adding any more . ap ap or . aps to the mix breaks it
00:31:57 <oerjan> ehird: whatever, it clearly uses the -> instance
00:31:59 <Gracenotes> maybe I should stick to a romance language..
00:32:04 <ehird> i've never seen that before ;P
00:32:13 <ehird> Gracenotes: LEARN DGIJOBJDFI
00:32:17 <oerjan> ehird: maybe you haven't imported the instance?
00:32:39 <Gracenotes> ehird: is it a useful language to know in the real world????!?
00:32:45 <oerjan> Control.Monad.{Reader,Instances}
00:32:57 <ehird> Gracenotes: HURF DURF I TURN KLAXON
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00:36:21 <oerjan> @unpl ap ap . ap . ap ap
00:36:21 <lambdabot> (\ c -> (\ m n -> m >>= \ k -> n >>= \ j -> return (k j)) >>= \ e -> (\ w -> ((\ ah ai -> ah >>= \ af -> ai >>= \ ae -> return (af ae)) >>= \ z -> c >>= \ y -> return (z y)) >>= \ t -> w >>= \ s ->
00:36:21 <lambdabot> return (t s)) >>= \ d -> return (e d))
00:36:48 * oerjan goes back to doing it by hand
00:37:13 <Gracenotes> c m n k n j k j e w ah ai ah af ai ae af ae z c y z y t w s t s d e d
00:38:15 <Gracenotes> also, I think the intro to Manns's Blinded by the Light is the best part. verse is meh.
00:38:45 <oerjan> (ap ap . ap . ap ap) x y z = ap ap (ap (ap ap x)) y z = ap y (ap (ap ap x) y) z = y z (ap (ap ap x) y z)
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00:39:42 <Gracenotes> oerjan: function application is left-associative
00:40:09 <oerjan> = y z (ap ap x z (y z)) = y z (ap z (x z) (y z))
00:41:09 <Gracenotes> I'm probably mistaken, but for.. ap ap (ap (ap ap x)) y z -> ap y (ap (ap ap x) y) z
00:42:22 <oerjan> is there something wrong with that?
00:42:36 <Gracenotes> I think it's right, but I'm too tired to determine if this is the case. seems anomalous..sort of
00:42:46 <oerjan> ap = s = \a b c -> a c (b c), btw.
00:43:24 <Gracenotes> oh I see, you're applying the first ap there
00:43:33 <Gracenotes> it almost seemed like you were applying the second
00:44:18 <oerjan> = y z (z y z (x z (y z)))
00:44:52 <Gracenotes> anyway, it would be nice to mark ap/>>= to pl to assert that it applies to (->)r
00:45:57 <oerjan> @pl s x y z = x z (y z)
00:46:06 <oerjan> pl already knows how to use them
00:46:32 <Gracenotes> although once it turns it into ap, it doesn't know anything about it
00:46:44 <ehird> oerjan: just let ap x y z = x z (y z) in ...
00:46:47 <ehird> then you won't get monad spew
00:48:04 <ehird> just prefix your shit with that
00:48:37 <Gracenotes> oh gawd, there are 11183 characters in the Korean unicode block
00:49:34 <oerjan> something's wrong with lambdabot
00:50:03 <oerjan> maybe it's being spammed by someone else
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00:58:23 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
00:59:01 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
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01:01:16 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
01:01:24 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
01:02:29 <lambdabot> forall a b a1. (a1 -> a -> b) -> (a1 -> a) -> a1 -> b
01:09:46 <lambdabot> forall a b a1. (a1 -> a -> b) -> (a1 -> a) -> a1 -> b
01:12:37 <ehird> I want to make a gloriously unsafe language.
01:12:49 <ehird> With macros and syntax
01:13:35 <ehird> Also, things like (printf "foo %s") can work strongly-typed because "foo %s" can be taken as a type constructed by calling a macro.
01:15:13 * oerjan did not expect to see "gloriously unsafe" and "strongly-typed" in the same language
01:15:22 <ehird> oerjan: The ML family of languages want a word.
01:15:27 <ehird> With you. In private.
01:17:34 <oerjan> i don't think of those when hearing "gloriously unsafe"
01:18:51 <oerjan> iirc ML was around where the phrase "well-typed programs cannot go wrong" was invented
01:22:04 <pikhq> ehird: So, what do you want? Strongly-typed, good macros, close to the hardware?
01:24:04 <ehird> pikhq: Let's say: very nice type system, nice enough that you can use it as a scripting language and everything Just Works. side effects. good, seamless macros (NOT anything like TH)
01:24:29 <ehird> eg the list with elements 1, 2 is of type [1 | 2]
01:24:30 <pikhq> So, strongly typed M-expression Lisp. :P
01:24:41 <ehird> 1.. is [Num] or whatever
01:24:58 <ehird> elements 3, "hello", () is [3 | "hello" | ()]
01:25:17 <ehird> foo x = [3, "hello", (), x]
01:25:29 <ehird> foo :: a -> [3 | "hello" | () | a]
01:25:37 <ehird> type sigs pretty much reflect the definition in this case
01:26:59 <Sgeo> ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA[start]
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01:29:39 <ehird> "Putting all of these qubits into superposition states — the initial Hamiltonian in the adiabatic algorithm — gives 2^{128} \sim 3 \cdot 10^{38} simultaneously held states. Not quite the number of atoms in the earth, but close."
01:29:47 <ehird> http://dwave.wordpress.com/2009/04/14/128-qubit-chip-mounted-on-io-system/
01:46:25 <oerjan> armageddon scenario 34016: a quantum computer putting 256 qubits in superposition causes the actual simulation earth is living in to run out of memory
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02:06:12 <pikhq> "Monad the Ultimate".
02:06:15 <pikhq> What a great idea.
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03:34:50 <pikhq> -> as a monad is.. Impressive.
03:38:57 <pikhq> Yes. I grok it. It's just pretty impressive. :)
03:52:21 <Sgeo> Does O3D already have the Intel stuff in it?
03:52:27 <Sgeo> Or is that not implemented uet?
03:56:29 <Sgeo> Restarting Firefox 3.5==not smart
04:02:11 <Sgeo> oerjan, O3D and Intel, or the 3.5 issues?
04:02:14 <Sgeo> Also, all I see is water
04:03:19 <oerjan> but, i recommend _not_ using a computer in water
04:03:53 <oerjan> unless, of course, it is special built for the purpose
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08:30:26 <Deewiant> > map (\x -> fst (randomR (0,5) (mkStdGen x))) [0..30]
08:30:27 <lambdabot> [5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5]
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11:59:32 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: 100k tarballs. <pikhq> When you have a 2 second latency. <-- portage can start downloads in parallel iirc?
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15:29:29 <oerjan> > map (\x -> take 3 (randomRs (0,5) (mkStdGen x))) [0..30]
15:29:32 <lambdabot> [[5,5,3],[5,4,1],[5,3,0],[5,3,4],[5,2,2],[5,1,1],[5,0,5],[5,0,3],[5,5,2],[5...
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15:30:47 * oerjan guesses it ignores the low bits
15:31:22 <oerjan> > map (\x -> fst (randomR (0,5) (mkStdGen x))) [0,33 ..1000]
15:31:23 <lambdabot> [5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5]
15:31:31 <oerjan> > map (\x -> fst (randomR (0,5) (mkStdGen x))) [0,333 ..1000]
15:31:42 <oerjan> > map (\x -> fst (randomR (0,5) (mkStdGen x))) [0,3333 ..1000]
15:31:55 <oerjan> > map (\x -> fst (randomR (0,5) (mkStdGen x))) [0,3333 ..100000]
15:31:56 <lambdabot> [5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4]
15:32:22 <oerjan> > map (\x -> fst (randomR (0,5) (mkStdGen x))) [0,33333 ..1000000]
15:32:23 <lambdabot> [5,5,4,4,3,2,2,1,1,0,5,5,4,3,3,2,2,1,0,0,5,4,4,3,3,2,1,1,0,5,5]
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15:34:05 <oerjan> > map (\x -> fst (random (mkStdGen x))) [0..30] :: [Int]
15:34:06 <lambdabot> [-117157315039303149,7917908265643496962,-2493721835987381530,5541392136091...
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18:23:44 <GregorR> I was in Genova with a group of about 10 people from ECOOP. I was the only American in this group. We stopped because somebody wanted to buy something; after she did, the shopkeeper looked at us, then pointed at me and said "You're Americano, sí?". I said "Sí", and he responded "I love Americans!" It was weird, but what's more weird is that he had clearly identified me as the only American in this group (he didn't think the others were Americans), wi
18:23:47 <GregorR> thout my saying anything. I guess I just exude Americanism.
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18:27:51 <pikhq> GregorR: It's the Moxie.
18:29:38 <GregorR> I was wearing a fuschia shirt with an orange tie :P
18:37:47 <pikhq> WHY THE CRAP DOES ICEDTEA NOT COUNT AS A JDK, GENTOO. WHY.
18:39:56 <GregorR> Because it's part of OpenJDK now? :P
18:41:18 <pikhq> Gentoo offers the "icedtea6" package, which provides OpenJDK.
18:42:29 <pikhq> Anyways, icedtea6 tries to pull in sun-jdk. Which is retarded.
18:44:48 <GregorR> Icedtea was mostly the library stuff, the JDK should be OpenJDK.
18:45:13 <GregorR> Just install OpenJDK, then install icedtea, and go "whoah liek it works"
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18:45:31 <pikhq> Irf there were an OpenJDK package, I would.
18:47:07 <GregorR> "IRF" is cybersex over IRC.
18:52:54 * pikhq has managed to get icedtea to use gcj-jdk as a build-time dependency. Yay?
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18:58:26 * pikhq wonders why icedtea6 depends on a JDK.
18:58:37 <pikhq> When it provides virtual/jdk.
19:03:02 <pikhq> > do {x <- (+1); return . (+x)} 5
19:03:03 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `5'
19:03:11 <pikhq> > do {x <- (+1); return . (+x)} $ 5
19:03:12 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m a))
19:03:13 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M8531327416...
19:04:05 <pikhq> > do {x <- (+1); y <- (+x); return y } $ 5
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19:37:51 <AnMaster> * pikhq wonders why icedtea6 depends on a JDK. <pikhq> When it provides virtual/jdk. <-- needed to bootstrap
19:37:59 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: 100k tarballs. <pikhq> When you have a 2 second latency. <-- portage can start downloads in parallel iirc?
19:38:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, make sure parallel-fetch is in FEATURES
19:38:47 <AnMaster> fetches packages while the previous is compiling
19:39:43 <ehird> the stupidest things ever
19:39:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, I have it in FEATURES.
19:40:09 <pikhq> Also, icedtea6 is installed, yet it depends on another JDK.
19:40:29 <ehird> macports downloads a ghc binary to compile ghc
19:41:54 <pikhq> (if there's not already an installed ghc)
19:44:01 <AnMaster> you can use binary only ghc iirc on gentoo
19:44:27 <AnMaster> also bootstrapping icedtea was an educated guess
19:44:37 <AnMaster> I remember reading that java is partially written in java
19:44:54 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:45:14 <pikhq> The Java compiler is, yes.
19:46:17 <pikhq> Why Gentoo can't just have a precompiled javac is beyond me.
19:54:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:56:25 <oerjan> <GregorR> I was wearing a fuschia shirt with an orange tie :P
19:56:34 <ehird> http://merd.sourceforge.net/ I wish this wasn't dead
19:56:52 <ehird> well maybe with a name that isn't "shi—"
19:58:12 <GregorR> oerjan: Of course I was wearing a hat.
19:58:21 <GregorR> I don't recall which now, maybe the Tam O'Shanter?
19:59:09 <GregorR> ...............................
20:00:46 <ehird> "# horizontal layout: 1+2 * 3 is (1+2) * 3 (merd innovation!) "
20:00:49 <ehird> totally not a merd innovation
20:00:56 <oerjan> apparently its name is merdy.
20:01:56 <oerjan> "it comes from the french word ``merde'' meaning shit :)"
20:02:11 <oerjan> no innocence excuse there, no sir!
20:07:55 <ehird> oh, another thing i want:
20:08:17 <ehird> x == (1 \/ 2) is (x == 1) || (x == 2)
20:08:28 <ehird> well actually, it's
20:08:37 <ehird> (x == 1) \/ (x == 2)
20:08:42 <ehird> but it comes to the same thing if you collapse it
20:09:11 <oerjan> hm didn't icon have something like that
20:09:19 <ehird> based on pass/failing stuff
20:09:27 <ehird> but seriously, i hate writing "x in [1,2]" and shit like that
20:09:29 <ehird> it's so unflexible
20:09:48 <ehird> also, you can do quantum-y stuff with it
20:09:59 <ehird> 2 + (1 \/ 0) and do probabilities and stuff to collapse it
20:10:42 <ehird> http://search.cpan.org/~lembark/Quantum-Superpositions/lib/Quantum/Superpositions.pm — is GREAT!
20:10:49 <ehird> due to damien conway originally too
20:11:13 <ehird> foo = (1 \/ 2 \/ 3) * 2
20:11:24 <ehird> foo is (2 \/ 4 \/ 6)
20:11:37 <oerjan> seems your keyboard collapsed on the return key
20:11:41 <ehird> (false \/ true \/ false)
20:11:53 <ehird> you could do things like making that false
20:11:57 <ehird> since false dominates
20:12:05 <ehird> although (x \/ x) is probably x.
20:12:09 <ehird> so it'd be (false \/ true)
20:12:23 <ehird> "This mechanism is provided by the two types of superposition available. A disjunctive superposition is true if any of its states is true, whereas a conjunctive superposition is true only if all of its states are true."
20:12:27 <ehird> i would make this a method on superpositions
20:12:33 <ehird> foo = (1 \/ 2 \/ 3) * 2
20:12:37 <ehird> if (foo.any) { ... }
20:12:41 <ehird> if (foo.all) { ... }
20:13:28 <ehird> print "The smallest element is: ",
20:13:28 <ehird> $array[any(@i)<=all(@i)];
20:13:30 <ehird> is pretty beautiful
20:13:39 <ehird> we could do that like:
20:13:43 <pikhq> If this damned thing depends on icedtea6-bin or gnu-classpath-jdk, I'm going to hunt someone down and kill them.
20:13:53 <ehird> list = [3, 7, 1, 99]
20:14:06 <pikhq> I make no guarantees as to this murder being against someone guilty of this.
20:14:07 <ehird> qntm = quantum list
20:14:11 <ehird> (quantum is just folding \/)
20:15:58 -!- inurinternet has joined.
20:16:01 <ehird> i'm not sure i like the any() and all() being actually fundamental to the superpositions though
20:16:08 <ehird> I'd prefer they'd be like QuantumViews
20:16:12 <ehird> so you could do after that:
20:16:24 <ehird> smallest = qntm.any <= qntm.all
20:19:13 <oerjan> > do {x <- (+1); y <- (+x); return y } $ 5
20:19:23 <ehird> oerjan: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees?
20:19:28 <oerjan> > do {x <- (+1); (+x) } $ 5
20:19:46 <oerjan> just improving pikhq's expression
20:20:14 <ehird> > succ >>= (+) $ 5
20:20:24 <oerjan> hey i was getting to that :D
20:20:31 <oerjan> (well maybe not the succ)
20:20:32 <ehird> > (+) =<< succ $ 5
20:20:39 <ehird> (easier to comprehend)
20:22:01 <ehird> oerjan: i'm going to implement superpositions in haskell >:)
20:22:10 <ehird> prolly have to violate some laws
20:24:42 <ehird> data Superposition a = Superposition [a]
20:27:32 <pikhq> data Superposition a = Superposition [a] deriving Monad
20:27:35 <oerjan> > [all, any] <*> (> 5) <$> [1..10]
20:27:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a1 -> b'
20:28:03 <ehird> pikhq: deriving Monad? Uhh, no
20:28:15 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, I'm aware.
20:28:23 <pikhq> Is called shorthand.
20:28:30 <ehird> Superpositions aren't monads
20:29:11 <oerjan> > [all, any] <*> [(> 5)] <*> [[1..10]]
20:29:51 <pikhq> Looks like it's a datatype that contains just a list.
20:30:32 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, and we all know that all list-things are exactly the same.
20:30:40 <ehird> You have clearly been following what I was talking about.
20:31:49 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [b])
20:31:49 <ehird> Unfortunately, there is no way to make (1 \/ 2) and (1 \/ 2 \/ 3) work sanely in haskell. :<
20:31:50 <lambdabot> arising from the arithmetic sequence...
20:31:54 <ehird> not eeven with a typeclass
20:32:19 <pikhq> > [1..5]>>=return . (+2)
20:32:40 <pikhq> Because mapping takes too much effort to write.
20:33:28 <ehird> pikhq: Cale used to have lambdabot lie about stuff. It had (.) = fmap
20:33:32 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, yes, there's the applicative stuff.
20:33:34 <ehird> And similar things
20:33:43 <ehird> But then it went all normal due to confusing the shit out of everyone.
20:34:05 <pikhq> fmap should definitely be called fmap.
20:34:16 <ehird> And "map" should not exist.
20:34:28 <pikhq> It's just a special case of fmap.
20:34:58 <ehird> entangle :: [a] -> Superposition a
20:34:58 <ehird> entangle [] = error "(The universe quietly expires.)"
20:36:00 <pikhq> > (+)<*>2<$>[1..5]
20:36:02 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a))
20:36:02 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `2' at <...
20:36:15 <pikhq> Ah, yes. /me should not be dumb.
20:37:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
20:37:26 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
20:37:45 <ehird> instance Eq a => Eq (Superposition a) where
20:37:45 <ehird> Superposition xs == Superposition ys = Superposition $ zipWith (==) xs ys
20:37:57 <ehird> ais523: \bot is master of the insults.
20:38:02 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
20:38:04 <lambdabot> Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing
20:38:08 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
20:38:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
20:38:11 <lambdabot> Source not found. You type like i drive.
20:38:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
20:38:16 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just try something else.
20:38:18 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
20:38:25 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong! You cheating scum!
20:38:27 <lambdabot> Source not found. stty: unknown mode: doofus
20:38:32 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
20:38:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
20:38:35 <pikhq> ehird: Any reason for Superposition not being a monad? It's not like it's... difficult.
20:38:37 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
20:38:38 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
20:38:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
20:38:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. You type like i drive.
20:38:45 <ehird> pikhq: That's not its semantics.
20:38:47 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
20:38:51 <lambdabot> Source not found. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
20:38:56 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
20:38:59 <ehird> ;;;;;;;;;;;;_;;;;;;;;;;;;
20:39:01 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
20:39:03 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
20:39:11 <pikhq> ehird: Needs moar monads.
20:39:12 -!- augur has joined.
20:39:18 <lambdabot> Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing
20:39:28 -!- Judofyr has joined.
20:39:28 <ehird> Couldn't match expected type `Bool'
20:39:29 <ehird> against inferred type `Superposition Bool'
20:39:35 <ehird> DAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
20:39:43 <ehird> Why isn't there a Boolean typeclass?
20:40:13 <pikhq> GODDAMMIT ICEDTEA STOP DEPENDING ON GNU-CLASSPATH-JDK.
20:41:02 <pikhq> YOU'RE INSTALLED. YOU MAY DEPEND ON YOURSELF NOW.
20:42:34 <pikhq> "dev-java/icedtea6" IS TOTALLY SOMETHING THAT CAN RESOLVE THAT DEPENDENCY ACCORDING TO YOUR EBUILD.
20:44:00 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
20:44:51 <oerjan> why the heck cannot @src ignore parentheses
20:47:17 <ehird> this kb has no delete key
20:49:38 <oerjan> yeah you look a bit ragged
20:52:15 <ehird> @hoogle [a] -> [a] -> [Bool]
20:52:16 <lambdabot> Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
20:52:16 <lambdabot> Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
20:52:58 <oerjan> zipWith isn't good enough for you?
20:53:11 <ehird> i had to write it twice but then I realised i could use a where clause
20:53:23 <ehird> that doesn't span across pattern matchii
20:53:37 <Ilari> was that (classpath) the Java standard class library that hung if you clicked anything in the window?
20:54:14 <pikhq> Ilari: No. Classpath is the entirety of the Java standard library.
20:54:58 <oerjan> match appears to be depressingly germanic
20:55:01 <Ilari> What does GCJ use? It can't compile some Java software I have due to some missing stdlib routines.
20:55:52 <ehird> why isn't there a definition-wide where clause :<
20:56:47 <Ilari> Specifically, it was missing String.<init>(byte[], Charset), PrintStream.<init>(String, String), Math.scalb(double, int) and Math.getExponent(double).
20:57:00 <oerjan> ehird: no latin endings need apply
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20:59:51 <oerjan> > let f (Just x) | x < 0 = fnord | otherwise = "nope" where { fnord = show x }; f Nothing = "hm..." in f (-5)
20:59:52 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Maybe.Maybe t))
20:59:56 <pikhq> GNU Classpath is not a complete implementation.
21:00:00 <oerjan> > let f (Just x) | x < 0 = fnord | otherwise = "nope" where { fnord = show x }; f Nothing = "hm..." in f $ Just (-5)
21:00:30 <ehird> Any xs == Any ys = any equal
21:00:31 <ehird> All xs == All ys = all equal
21:00:32 <ehird> where equal = zipWith (==) xs ys
21:00:40 <ehird> oerjan: think i could convince the haskell' people to standardize that as working?
21:00:43 <oerjan> ehird: because the where would then be inside several different scopes with possibly different names defined
21:01:19 <oerjan> e.g. x is not defined in the f Nothing clause i wrote there
21:01:48 <oerjan> and it could even have been defined in conflicting ways
21:02:06 -!- jix has joined.
21:03:04 <ehird> what should i do then?
21:03:09 <ehird> i hate adding a stupid new one-off top level function
21:03:10 <pikhq> Turns out I had a useflag enabled that made icedtea depend on a library which depends on virtual/jdk-1.4
21:03:15 <ehird> I could use a case I guess
21:03:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:03:50 <pikhq> Stupid one-off module level function.
21:03:52 <oerjan> ehird: also you want or/and, not any/all with that definition
21:04:02 <ehird> oerjan: eh really? why?
21:04:07 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
21:04:07 <oerjan> any/all takes a predicate
21:04:09 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
21:04:19 <ehird> i'm opearting on two lists
21:06:03 <ehird> oerjan: what would you call ((a -> b -> c) -> Superposition a -> Superposition b -> Superposition c)?
21:06:06 <oerjan> ehird: hm wait there is something you can do. Any/All are constructors, right?
21:06:06 <ehird> i'm thinking something quantumy
21:06:15 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but I just used
21:06:18 <ehird> Any xs == Any ys = or $ zipWith (==) xs ys
21:06:18 <ehird> All xs == All ys = and $ zipWith (==) xs ys
21:07:09 <oerjan> data ... = Any { inside :: [a] } | All { inside :: [a] }
21:07:22 <oerjan> would allow you to use inside in both branches
21:07:51 <ehird> hot, but, doesn't help with (==)
21:08:03 <oerjan> you still need a case expression
21:08:23 <ehird> oerjan: what is an operation that combines two superpositions into a third, new one anyway
21:08:27 <ehird> i need to name this thing :D
21:09:29 <ehird> oerjan: isn't that just for summation or something
21:10:02 <oerjan> well that's what it is in quantum mechanics. which has little to do with the above anyway.
21:10:52 <ehird> i'll just call it operate
21:11:03 <ehird> and operate2 for the two argument version
21:15:50 <ehird> operate2 :: (a -> b -> c) -> Superposition a -> Superposition b -> Superposition c
21:16:02 <ehird> oerjan: is there a name for a zip that cycles the shorter list to fit?
21:17:21 <ehird> oerjan: no function that takes [a] and [b] and cycles one to fit the larger length? which is the main part of it ofc
21:19:01 <oerjan> it's a rather special purpose thing, don't you think? ;D
21:19:15 <ehird> i find myself needing it quite often
21:19:26 <ehird> i'd prefer zip worked that way by default
21:23:20 <oerjan> hm... i think that would ruin deforestation
21:23:46 <ehird> deforest your face.
21:23:57 <oerjan> since you couldn't throw away the beginning of either list until the end of both was reached
21:24:37 * oerjan doesn't know how much ghc manages to deforest zips, anyway
21:24:57 <oerjan> also, it could blow up memory
21:25:18 <oerjan> > let fib = zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in fib
21:25:23 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
21:25:32 <oerjan> > let fib = 1:1:zipWith (+) fib (tail fib) in fib
21:25:33 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1...
21:26:02 <oerjan> that would blow up with such a zip
21:26:39 <oerjan> unless it managed to detect both lists were infinite
21:28:56 <ehird> oerjan: er just store the entire list
21:29:00 <ehird> ie keep 'fib' around
21:29:44 <oerjan> er the point is _not_ to do that, if you want to save memory
21:30:29 <ehird> oerjan: but you don't save memory anyway, as you bind 'fib' to a name and use it
21:30:32 <ehird> so you're keeping it around anyway
21:30:49 <ehird> and since it'd never reach the END of either,
21:30:53 <ehird> it'd never try and cycle one
21:31:16 <oerjan> printing that fib runs in constant memory (ignoring bignums there)
21:31:46 <pikhq> So, my hard drive failure. Turns out my 500G drive is a) notorious as the Deathstar b) hard as fuck to replace c) has a 1 year warranty.
21:31:47 <pikhq> Fuck it, I'm getting a new drive.
21:31:47 <ehird> i think you are the thinking wrong
21:32:02 <ehird> you bought a hitachi drive?
21:32:12 <pikhq> ehird: No, a Samsung.
21:32:14 <ehird> welcome to stupidity, population infinite!
21:32:21 <oerjan> ehird: no, i'm pretty sure laziness means you don't keep the beginning of the list after the first few steps
21:32:26 <ehird> pikhq: Samsung drives are renowned
21:32:42 <ehird> pikhq: which model is it?
21:32:48 <ehird> anyway get a western digital.
21:33:04 <pikhq> I'm looking at the Seagates and the WDs.
21:33:18 <ehird> if you go seagate get a barracuda
21:33:24 <ehird> if you go WD get anything but a green
21:33:32 <ehird> you might want a green
21:33:38 <ehird> there's some fud and some stuff that looks legit
21:33:42 <ehird> pikhq: what's the model you have
21:33:57 <pikhq> It failed in a few months.
21:34:01 <ehird> hmm probably crap then.
21:34:04 <ehird> pikhq: get a 1TB :-P
21:39:35 <ehird> ahh i need to make this language
21:40:06 <oerjan> it's the language making addiction!
21:40:19 <ehird> it would be awesome
21:40:24 <oerjan> there's got to be a pretentious greek word for it
21:41:25 <oerjan> yes, and -mania at the end. but it needs something in between.
21:41:30 <AnMaster> ... why does that sound like some game?
21:42:06 <AnMaster> what is the name for "god complex" or whatever it is called.
21:42:11 <oerjan> apparently it's a disease
21:42:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant the pretentious name
21:42:27 <oerjan> megalomania gets close
21:42:39 <ehird> A God complex is a non-clinical term. It does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)[1]
21:42:46 <ehird> Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy." [1]
21:42:48 <ehird> The narcissist is described as turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others, and as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness. It is also colloquially referred to as "the God complex."
21:42:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes, and since gods great the world...
21:42:52 <ehird> Megalomania (from the Greek word μεγαλομανία; megalo-, meaning large, and mania) is a historical term for behavior characterized by an obsession or preoccupation with wealth, power, genius, or omnipotence—often generally termed as delusions of grandeur or grandiose delusions. Megalomania denotes an obsession with having and/or obtaining, grandiosity and extravagance (especially in the form of great fame and popularity, material wealth, soci
21:42:57 <ehird> al influence or political power, or more than one or even all of the aforesaid). It may be a symptom of manic or paranoid disorders.[citation needed] However it is not considered a distinct mental disorder of itself according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
21:43:06 <ehird> they really great the world
21:43:09 <ehird> and i verb language
21:44:14 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:44:32 -!- MizardX has joined.
21:46:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> and i verb language <-- some meme?
21:46:20 <ehird> dude, it's calvin and hobbes
21:46:35 <AnMaster> ehird, that is even worse than garfield IMO!
21:46:40 <ehird> .............................
21:46:48 <oerjan> verbing weirds language
21:46:49 <ehird> Did you really just say that? Do you fully understand what you just said?
21:46:52 <ehird> Are you sure you're not mixing things up, AnMaster?
21:46:59 <ehird> Because you just fucking said that Calvin and Hobbes is worse than Garfield.
21:47:06 <AnMaster> ehird, might be the Swedish translation used by newspapers here...
21:47:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think you have to exile to the moon now
21:47:19 <ehird> I knew you were shit-for-brains, I was just assuming this was more than vacuously true — you clearly don't have a brain.
21:47:22 <ehird> Not even a shit-brain.
21:47:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, why? I hate Calvin and Hobes
21:47:59 <ehird> oerjan: you get the pitchfork or me?
21:48:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: of course calvin is ehird's great hero, which might explain his reaction
21:48:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah it might explain it...
21:49:41 <AnMaster> why do I have koffice installed *confused*
21:49:55 <oerjan> maybe you have a koffein addiction
21:50:58 <oerjan> > (++"office")<$>['a'..'z']
21:50:59 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
21:51:07 <oerjan> > (:"office")<$>['a'..'z']
21:51:08 <lambdabot> ["aoffice","boffice","coffice","doffice","eoffice","foffice","goffice","hof...
21:51:53 <oerjan> !haskell (:"office")`map`['a'..'z']
21:51:54 <EgoBot> ["aoffice","boffice","coffice","doffice","eoffice","foffice","goffice","hoffice","ioffice","joffice","koffice","loffice","moffice","noffice","ooffice","poffice","qoffice","roffice","soffice","toffice","uoffice","voffice","woffice","xoffice","yoffice","zoffice"]
21:53:42 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
21:56:36 * pikhq is getting a terabyte Seagate drive.
21:58:23 <oerjan> one of those with terable performance
22:00:37 <ehird> pikhq: any reason not to go w/ WD?
22:01:01 <pikhq> The Seagate was slightly cheaper and had free shipping.
22:01:28 <pikhq> Also, I trust Seagate a bit more.
22:02:37 -!- darthnuri has joined.
22:02:56 <ehird> WD are pretty much the most reliable HD maker in existence.
22:03:09 <pikhq> I've got 15 year old Seagate drives that still work.
22:03:12 <ehird> pikhq: Also, all newegg items have free shipping :P
22:03:24 <pikhq> Maybe in UK-land, but not here.
22:06:07 <ehird> pikhq: newegg don't exist in the UK.
22:06:11 <ehird> only in the US, really.
22:06:40 <pikhq> I guess they used to? But alas, such is not the case any more.
22:06:48 <GregorR> UK-land, also known as Eng-land, Scot-land, Welsh-land and part of Ire-land.
22:06:58 <ehird> pikhq: Uh? You sure?
22:07:19 <pikhq> They specifically advertise which items *have* free shipping.
22:08:47 <oerjan> GregorR: i think you welshed a bit on that one
22:12:01 <GregorR> oerjan: "Wales" doesn't end in "-land", gimme a break :P
22:13:12 <oerjan> GregorR: i decided to give you a pun instead
22:18:43 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
22:22:53 -!- jix has quit (".zZ").
22:31:51 -!- coppro has joined.
22:38:31 <ehird> "I am extremely displeased with today’s comic. XKCD, which I normally agree with and enjoy, has made several errors in one comic, from my point of view. Global warming is a lie so get over that one already."
22:38:36 <ehird> —xkcd blag comment
22:39:00 * coppro is rather annoyed at the whole global warming thing
22:40:10 <ehird> don't tell me you're a wackjob too
22:42:12 <pikhq> The whole thing annoys me, too.
22:42:13 <ehird> "“Climate change” is, incidentally, a non-falsifiable hypothesis (the record shows temperatures have changed a lot, particularly if you recognize that Mann, et al’s hockeystick is bad science), taking it OUT of the realm of science, and into religion."
22:42:20 <pikhq> Not because I don't think it's happening, but because it's a moot point.
22:42:31 <ehird> pikhq: uh huh. and how is this so?
22:43:05 <pikhq> Regardless of whether or not the shit we're dumping in the air is heating up the earth, it's still adding shit to the air that hurts the environment.
22:43:25 <pikhq> Climate change is just one of the ways that our massive stream of pollution fucks things up.
22:43:51 <ehird> coppro: what then?
22:43:55 <coppro> I'm annoyed at the way people think of it
22:44:16 <coppro> like, it's become a bit of a religious debate as to whether climate change is happening
22:44:37 <coppro> and people are missing the fundamental point which is that we should be nice to our planet
22:44:38 <ehird> the only people who challenge that it's happening are nutjobs
22:44:45 <ehird> and most sane people don't argue with nutjobs
22:44:49 <ehird> so of course the arguments are a shitfest
22:45:03 <pikhq> ehird: Nut jobs and people who stand to lose money from not being nice to the planet.
22:45:33 <ehird> my policy is to ignore all nutjobs unless i'm bored, in which case I flame them.
23:10:48 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:17:30 <GregorR> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Genova%2Fcrw_2946_contrast.jpg
23:31:22 <GregorR> I love when the plane is between to layers of clouds.
23:31:42 <GregorR> And also seeing mountains through clouds, that's effing sweet (although only an experience I've had once :P )
23:36:00 <ehird> to layers of clouds
23:37:23 <GregorR> I apparently have lost the ability to distinguish homonyms entirely.
23:43:17 <oerjan> http://imgur.com/jV0N4.jpg
23:49:18 <oerjan> of course with my evolved intelligence i can see those are all just paper silhouettes anyhow.
23:54:03 <GregorR> So you've evolved the ability to not recognize symbols? Must be useful :P
23:55:09 <ehird> GregorR: oerjan: if you combine you'll be know that Wether Balloons are actually paper silhouettes
23:59:55 <augur> ehird: "You'll be know"?
00:00:09 <ehird> if you combine with me you'll insert random words accidentally!
00:00:15 <augur> and you complain about MY english!
00:00:17 <ehird> With your powers combined, I am CAPTAIN PLANET!
00:00:36 <augur> BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED
00:00:39 <augur> I AM CAPTAIN PLANET
00:00:44 <ehird> LACK OF HOMONYM DISTINGUISHING
00:00:59 <ehird> ABILITY TO NOT DISTINGUISH HOMONYMS
00:01:03 <ehird> ABILITY TO NOT RECOGNIZE SYMBOLS
00:01:11 <ehird> ABILITY TO NOT AVOID INSERTING RANDOM WORDS
00:01:15 <ehird> BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED
00:01:16 <ehird> I AM CAPTAIN PLANET
00:01:19 <ehird> augur: ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ backlog
00:01:40 <augur> silhouettes are not symbols.
00:01:45 <augur> they're depictions.
00:01:48 <augur> theres a difference.
00:01:53 <ehird> waaaaaaah i'm augur and i'm a pedant who hates funny
00:02:04 <augur> well it was rather funny actually
00:02:09 <augur> but the word choice was wrong
00:02:34 <augur> its funnier if you realize that symbolic intelligence is distinctly human, while silhouette recognition is something even lowly reptiles can do
00:02:52 -!- coppro has joined.
00:03:33 <ehird> that's irrelevant to it
00:03:46 * Warrigal makes an angry post about the Monty Hall Problem.
00:05:11 <ehird> Warrigal: are you really able to get angry about that?
00:05:22 * oerjan predends to make an angry post about how Warrigal ignores the subtleties of the Monty Hall Problem.
00:09:50 <Warrigal> And precisely the point I'm making has been made, probably in more detail, eighteen years ago.
00:09:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
00:14:34 <ehird> i wanna buy a box, put openbsd on it
00:14:42 <ehird> give it a hugely phat internet pipe
00:14:47 <ehird> deny everything in the firewall
00:14:50 <ehird> apart from web traffic
00:14:59 <ehird> run a server that rejects ANY invalid http at first sight
00:15:05 <ehird> and only serves static pages extremely securely and quickly
00:15:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:15:12 <ehird> then put a huuuuuuuuuge library of exploits on there
00:15:14 <ehird> and taunt anti-sec
00:16:27 <ehird> also, put some anti-ddos crap on there
00:16:29 <ehird> just in case they try
00:23:04 <ehird> http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html
00:23:11 <ehird> find latex symbols by drawing them
00:28:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:29:20 <pikhq> ehird: BTW, "a server that rejects ANY invalid http at first sight" -- I believe that OpenBSD's patched Apache will suffice.
00:29:48 <ehird> pikhq: Apache is far too big to trust like that.
00:30:44 <ehird> I'm thinking thttpd sort of thing.
00:31:14 <pikhq> I seem to recall that OpenBSD did regular security audits of their Apache.
00:31:30 <pikhq> Few lines of Haskell, then?
00:31:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:32:03 <ehird> pikhq: they may well do; that won't help against anti-sec's undisclosed exploits
00:32:06 <ehird> I would not trust Haskell in this system.
00:32:30 <pikhq> Then you don't trust OpenBSD.
00:32:35 <ehird> OpenBSD, smallest system possible, locked-down firewall apart from web traffic, extremely minimal, extremely hardened static web server, simple anti-DDOS measures
00:32:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:32:46 <ehird> that's about as trustable as you can get
00:32:58 <ehird> (no ssh access either; configure it before coloing it)
00:33:17 <pikhq> ... You're making it more secure than OpenBSD is outside of the box.
00:33:23 <pikhq> That is... Impressive.
00:33:59 <ehird> Anyway, I'd enjoy imagining their acne-filled faces swelling up into a fury.
00:34:09 <ehird> "HOW DARE THEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!"
00:34:51 <pikhq> I suggest starting with thttpd and hardening that.
00:37:14 <ehird> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 9,758
00:37:36 <ehird> pikhq: it's not exactly small
00:37:45 <ehird> and i'm not sure i'd trust unmaintained software THAT much
00:39:23 <ehird> pikhq: ideas for a base: boa, fnord
00:39:31 <ehird> fnord uses djb-style stuff
00:39:34 <ehird> so is probably quite secure
00:39:36 <ehird> and it's also very fast
00:40:00 <ehird> boa is a bit unmaintained and slower than fnord
00:40:10 <ehird> pikhq: otoh, then we need to trust both openbsd libs AND the djb libs
00:40:49 <pikhq> And the OpenBSD libs are probably more trustable.
00:41:57 <ehird> pikhq: considering djb's security recodr that's not necessarily true
00:42:30 <ehird> pikhq: ok, it depends on dietlibc and libowfat
00:42:35 <ehird> it includes libowfat
00:42:52 <ehird> http://www.fefe.de/libowfat/ is a reimplementation of libdjb under GPL
00:42:59 <ehird> diet libc everyone knows
00:43:05 <ehird> pikhq: hey, can OpenBSD use dietlibc by default?
00:43:10 <ehird> that way you could reduce the things to trust
00:43:20 <ehird> esp. if they have a maintained fnord
00:43:22 <pikhq> No, it has its own libc.
00:43:28 <ehird> not even an option?
00:43:41 <pikhq> And I think that nobody's even tried porting other libcs to it.
00:44:08 <pikhq> Besides which, nuking the libc gets rid of the address space randomization of its malloc.
00:46:43 <ehird> pikhq: but fnord in itself comes to 1,953 SLOC
00:46:53 <ehird> including the distribution perl and shell scripts :P
00:47:32 <ehird> pikhq: although libowfat is 12,464, it's questionable how much is actually used in fnodr
00:48:34 <pikhq> But LOC is a bad measure.
00:49:01 <ehird> pikhq: The easier to audit, the more trustable you can heuristicerize.
00:52:24 <ehird> `define GregorR's face
00:52:29 <ehird> Two things that do not exist by GregorR's logic.
00:59:18 <oerjan> sir, that is not a kitty, that is a sewer rat
01:00:10 <GregorR> Well, then it's a big, fuzzy, pretty sewer rat.
01:00:40 <ehird> There's more to a qubit than probabilityOfBeingOne, right?
01:00:46 <ehird> (And associated operations.)
01:01:25 <ehird> oerjan: that's helpful :D
01:01:52 <oerjan> actually, a single qubit state is a complex vector with 2 coordinates
01:02:24 <oerjan> n qubits, 2^n coordinates
01:02:24 <ehird> oerjan: i don't see how that's actually related to a qubit, though
01:02:34 <ehird> it seems that one qubit is just a probability of being 1 or 0
01:02:42 <GregorR> And of course there's entanglement.
01:03:17 <ehird> GregorR: Uhh, that's accounted for.
01:03:26 <oerjan> ehird: the problem is that that gives you no help when collecting more than one qubit together
01:03:43 <ehird> a|0> + b|1> → probability=0.5
01:03:55 <ehird> oerjan: so qubits can't be [Qubit]? you need to have them linked?
01:03:59 <ehird> makes sense I guess
01:04:10 <oerjan> unless they don't communicate
01:04:57 <ehird> oerjan: i assume you need that for staples like Shor's algorithm, so let's ignore that
01:05:05 <ehird> i'm just wondering what a Bog Standard Qubit is
01:06:51 <oerjan> a and b complex numbers as above, with |a|^2 + |b|^2 = 1
01:07:24 <oerjan> and |a|^2 and |b|^2 are the probabilities of 0 and 1 respectively
01:08:07 <ehird> oerjan: so it's ((a,b),(c,d))?
01:08:32 <oerjan> i didn't mention any c or d
01:09:04 <ehird> oerjan: "a and b complex numbers"
01:09:10 <ehird> a complex number can be represented as (real,imag)
01:09:28 <ehird> so it's ((r1,i1),(r2,i2))
01:09:41 <oerjan> > 2 :+ 3 :: Complex Double
01:09:54 <ehird> oerjan: so "a and b complex numbers" isn't true
01:09:57 <ehird> that implies two complex numbers
01:10:16 <oerjan> a is a complex number, b is a complex number
01:10:28 <ehird> so (a,b) where a = (r1,i1) and b = (r2,i2)
01:10:37 <olsner> what was that site with a series of numbered mysterious items?
01:10:37 <ehird> oerjan: and [ri][12] are reals?
01:11:00 <ehird> oerjan: can said reals be uncomputable? :-D
01:11:47 <oerjan> but you won't get that if you only apply computable unitary transformations
01:12:01 <olsner> it was iirc a three-letter initialism
01:12:13 <ehird> oerjan: will you get rationals or computable reals?
01:12:41 <oerjan> ehird: hm, might depend on your operations
01:12:53 <ehird> oerjan: "quantum complete"
01:13:11 <oerjan> i'm not sure what things like shor's algorithm uses
01:14:21 <ehird> oerjan: isn't that hardaadandjand gate transform + fourier "quantum complete?
01:14:46 <oerjan> i suppose it is considered to be so?
01:15:27 <ehird> oerjan: so, I'm not sure how you go from (a,b) → probabilityOfOne
01:15:32 <oerjan> i don't remember what those are, at the moment
01:15:57 <ehird> so what's a used for?
01:16:04 <oerjan> which is the same as r2^2 + i2^2
01:16:36 <ehird> also |b| = abs(b)? my mathematical notation is rusty
01:16:41 <olsner> it was really funny too! no-one remembers?
01:16:41 <oerjan> the phase of a can still vary
01:16:58 <ehird> olsner: care to be more specific?
01:17:01 <ehird> 01:16 oerjan: the phase of a can still vary
01:17:24 <oerjan> ehird: knowing |b|^2 determines |a|, but not the phase of a
01:18:09 <olsner> ehird: it was about a fictional organization that had as its mission to keep artifacts with mysterious powers safe
01:18:40 <olsner> each artifact was numbered also
01:18:55 <ehird> olsner: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/
01:19:24 <ehird> olsner: if you find it *funny* i think you're reading the bad ones :D
01:19:38 <ehird> oerjan: |a|^2 + |b|^2 = 1 right?
01:19:43 <oerjan> ehird: in polar coordinates, a = |a|*e^(i*theta)
01:19:56 <olsner> ehird: funny as in entertaining, not as in haha-funny
01:20:09 <olsner> SCP it was! thanks! :D
01:20:17 <ehird> olsner: hmm. odd usage. is that common in — *checks* — swedish?
01:20:32 <oerjan> = |a|*cos(theta) + i|a|*sin(theta)
01:21:11 <ehird> oerjan: that just lets me determine a from |a|
01:21:14 <ehird> not a from nothing
01:21:19 <oerjan> theta can vary independently from |a|
01:21:48 <ehird> oerjan: i saw a qubit.py that was like 70 lines
01:21:52 <ehird> this sounds far too complex for that :D
01:21:59 <oerjan> ehird: i am pointing out that even if you know b, and that |a|^2+|b|^2 = 1, you don't know everything about a
01:22:48 <olsner> ehird: the word for funny does primarily mean funny in swedish too, but something that is entertaining is also fun
01:22:53 <ehird> pikhq: i'm underage.
01:23:00 <ehird> olsner: right, fun != funny
01:23:09 <pikhq> ehird: Okay, so you're not all that many quantums.
01:23:24 <ehird> if you know what i mean
01:24:00 <ehird> Prelude Data.Complex> (1 :+ 2) :+ (3 :+ 4)
01:24:00 <ehird> <interactive>:1:0:
01:24:01 <ehird> No instance for (RealFloat (Complex t))
01:24:02 <ehird> awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:24:33 <olsner> (1 :+ 2) + (3 :+ 4) you mean?
01:24:36 <oerjan> ehird: the second :+ should be just +
01:24:53 <ehird> i want to make it a qubit
01:25:08 <ehird> and trying to use :+ as (,)
01:25:20 <oerjan> well that won't work reasonably
01:26:09 <olsner> a qubit is a pair of complex numbers? or a quaternion?
01:26:52 <oerjan> "(Exactly what unitaries can be applied depend on the physics of the quantum device.)"
01:27:36 <oerjan> ehird: so it is possibly not agreed upon what quantum complete requires...
01:28:12 <oerjan> grmbl wikipedia locking up
01:30:56 <ehird> import System.Environment
01:30:56 <ehird> main = mapM_ putStrLn =<< getArgs
01:31:00 <ehird> #include <stdio.h>
01:31:00 <ehird> int main(int argc, char **argv) {
01:31:02 <ehird> for (int i = 0; i < argc; i++) puts(argv[i]);
01:31:06 <ehird> We report, you decide!
01:31:28 <ehird> The latter being bad style :)
01:31:37 <oerjan> the latter doesn't print newlines
01:33:20 <ehird> The C is about 1.9s faster, though. If you pass it 1000000 arguments.
01:34:06 <ehird> If you pass only a measly 100000, it's 0.179s slower.
01:34:27 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 487K 2009-07-13 01:28 foo
01:34:27 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 13K 2009-07-13 01:32 foo2
01:34:32 <ehird> And the ghc executable is KILOBYTES bigger!
01:34:33 <oerjan> what about main = putStr . unlines =<< getArgs ?
01:34:54 <ehird> oerjan: that's not what the C does.
01:35:05 <ehird> and writing THAT in C would be true torture
01:36:59 <ehird> first you'd have to malloc() it all
01:37:01 <ehird> and expand dynamically
01:37:04 <ehird> then you'd have to write a join function
01:37:06 <ehird> which again allocates
01:37:08 <ehird> and writes a whole new string
01:37:12 <ehird> (the haskell here would have an advantage, building bit by bit)
01:37:20 <ehird> if you combine the two steps, resulting in harder-to-read code, it's still hard
01:37:52 <pikhq> Whereas the Haskell is about as easy to read as a UNIX pipeline.
01:38:01 <olsner> putStr . unlines only describes the result though - I'd say it's perfectly sensible to write a per-character iteration or something like that instead in C
01:38:12 <ehird> pikhq: Well, it's written applicative-y
01:38:19 <ehird> "getArgs >>= mapM_ putStrLn" would be pipey
01:38:41 <pikhq> ehird: Sure. I'm just saying it's as easy to read as a UNIX pipeline. :)
01:38:55 <ehird> pikhq: But unix pipelines aren't especially easy to read :P
01:39:04 <pikhq> ... Sure they are.
01:39:10 <pikhq> In the trivial cases, at least.
01:39:18 <ehird> trivial perl's easy to read too.
01:40:35 <ehird> @hoogle (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:36 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d
01:40:42 <ehird> @hoogle Functor m => (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:42 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d
01:40:46 <olsner> what language manages to make even trivial things unreadable?
01:40:46 <ehird> @hoogle Applicative m => (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:47 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d
01:40:55 <ehird> @hoogle Applicative m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:56 <lambdabot> Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:56 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:40:56 <lambdabot> Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
01:41:02 <ehird> @hoogle Functor m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:41:03 <lambdabot> Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:41:03 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
01:41:03 <lambdabot> Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
01:41:06 <ehird> hmm so =<< it is then
01:41:11 <ehird> 01:40 olsner: what language manages to make even trivial things unreadable?
01:41:14 <ehird> look at the channel you're in
01:41:46 <pikhq> And raise you a moo.
01:41:55 <olsner> haha, kind of like asking for your glasses when you already have them on
01:42:03 <ehird> !cxx std::vector<std::string> foo("Hello", "world!");
01:42:09 <ehird> Let's assume that worked.
01:42:21 <ehird> !cxx std::vector<std::string> foo = {"Hello", "world!"};
01:42:35 <ehird> GregorR: better error reporting would be appreciated
01:43:59 <ehird> !cxx std::string elems[] = {"Hello", "world!"}; std::vector<std::string> strings(elems, elems + sizeof elems);
01:44:02 <ehird> i cannot believe you have to do that.
01:44:07 <pikhq> I wonder if it includes obvious headers.
01:44:40 <pikhq> !cxx std::string foo = "Hello, world!";
01:45:01 <pikhq> !cxx std::cout << "Hello, world!";
01:45:06 <ehird> GregorR: Gee, remind me to never report an issue to you ever again.
01:45:20 <ehird> !cxx std::string fuck = "Hello, world!"; std::cout << fuck
01:45:22 <pikhq> I think we can conclude that C++ sucks.
01:45:35 <olsner> hey, it's C++, you wouldn't understand the error message anyway
01:45:39 <ehird> !cxx std::vector<std::string> fuck;
01:45:47 <ehird> olsner: weren't you that one trying to replace C++?
01:46:01 <ehird> !cxx #include <vector>; int main() { std::vector<std::string> fuck; }
01:46:23 <pikhq> ehird: You'd need to include a literal newline there.
01:46:30 <pikhq> The C preprocessor sucks.
01:46:33 <ehird> you can do it with !c can't you
01:46:41 <ehird> !cxx int main() { std::vector<std::string> fuck; }; #include <vector>
01:46:50 <ehird> FUCK YOU EgoBot AND YOUR TWELVE WIVES.
01:47:22 <ehird> incidentally, let's golf lambdacat:
01:47:29 <ehird> main = putStr =<< getContents
01:47:34 <ehird> main = interact id
01:47:41 <ehird> oops, i finished :)
01:48:06 <GregorR> Heh, it includes iostream but not string :P
01:48:14 <ehird> pikhq: That $ is the same length as a space.
01:48:20 <ehird> a space is semantically simpler
01:48:24 <ehird> GregorR: std::string works, so.
01:48:24 <GregorR> ehird: The problem is that there are two attempts at compiling it, and it's impossible to know which error is useful.
01:48:26 <ehird> it's <vector> we need.
01:48:31 <ehird> GregorR: wut? howso?
01:48:35 <pikhq> $ is more dollary.
01:48:39 <ehird> pikhq: And syntactic golfing is zzzzzzzz
01:51:26 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:51:34 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
01:51:45 <ehird> Hey, I have a challenge. Your script/binary will be called "test". Golf the printing of "test: <<loop>>"
01:51:55 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
01:52:13 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
01:52:27 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
01:52:32 <GregorR> ehird: I compile it once in main() and once as a whole file; if both produce an error, probably only one of those errors is useful, but it's impossible to guess which.
01:53:06 <EgoBot> Interpreter id installed.
01:53:11 <ehird> pikhq: That's longer than mine. (That's what she said, but.)
01:53:11 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
01:53:38 <EgoBot> Interpreter id deleted.
01:54:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter id installed.
01:54:46 <pikhq> !sh echo "m@main=m">>tmp.hs;ghc --make tmp.hs;./tmp
01:54:46 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.19965: line 1: tmp.hs: Permission denied
01:55:03 <pikhq> DAMN YOU NOT HACKEGO!!!
01:55:16 <Warrigal> I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to make a cat interpreter.
01:55:20 <ehird> !sh echo "m@main=m">>tmp.hs;ghc --make tmp.hs;chmod +x tmp;./tmp
01:55:20 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.20007: line 1: tmp.hs: Permission denied
01:55:26 <ehird> ...........................................
01:55:34 <ehird> GregorR: are file extensions ignored?
01:56:03 <pikhq> The failure is writing tmp.hs in the first place.
01:56:40 <Warrigal> !addinterp bypass_ignore sh cat
01:56:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter bypass_ignore installed.
01:56:56 <Warrigal> Hey, it's one of the possible names for that interpreter I didn't think of.
01:57:06 <ehird> Eh? What kind of ignorey?
01:57:10 <ehird> Is EgoBot ignoring the Warrigal?
01:58:10 <Warrigal> !ehird What do you do, my eponymous friend?
01:58:11 <EgoBot> Wut do you do, my eponymous friend?
01:58:14 <GregorR> ehird: You can't write files.
01:58:15 <pikhq> No, but presumably it allows you to bypass someone else's ignore. ;)
01:58:24 <oerjan> EgoBot doesn't like dogs, being written by a cat person
01:58:28 <pikhq> That's what HackEgo's for.
01:58:52 <Warrigal> I was expecting it to do something along the lines of:
01:58:52 <ehird> !funetak I think nooga named it that because he's an idiot.
01:58:59 <ehird> !ehird I think nooga named it that because he's an idiot.
01:59:00 <EgoBot> Em tunk nooga named it that because he's an idiot.
01:59:07 <ehird> !addinterp funetak sh funetak
01:59:07 <EgoBot> Interpreter funetak installed.
01:59:08 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
01:59:20 <ehird> Warrigal: That's just fmt -w thingy.
01:59:27 -!- GregorR has joined.
02:05:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:05:31 <zzo38> Is there a such thing as log base two of aleph zero?
02:06:05 <oerjan> not as a cardinality, anyway
02:06:24 <ehird> i almost understood that
02:06:27 <zzo38> I didn't think there could be, but I wanted to ask anyways.
02:06:59 <oerjan> maybe as a surreal number, but i don't know if 2^ means the same thing there as with cardinalities
02:07:28 <ehird> holy shit, Poromenos' comment karma is 59,928
02:07:53 <ehird> his name is apropos.
02:08:00 <zzo38> I think you can have two (or any positive number) to the power of aleph zero to make aleph one
02:08:03 <oerjan> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ :D
02:08:38 <oerjan> zzo38: you mean beth one, unless you assume the continuum hypothesis
02:08:51 <zzo38> O, I mean beth one. I didn
02:09:27 <zzo38> O, I mean beth one. I didn't actually know that "beth" to mean this was standard at all. I invented this notation too independently a long time ago and haven't heard about it since.
02:09:29 <Warrigal> > map (unwords . words) $ (\s -> case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s') $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?"
02:09:45 <ehird> Warrigal: that is ridiculously verbose.
02:09:51 <ehird> it hurts to look at.
02:10:08 <oerjan> zzo38: beth_(n+1) = 2^(beth_n)
02:10:19 <ehird> oerjan: any base cases?
02:10:24 <oerjan> aleph_(n+1) = minimum cardinality > aleph_n
02:10:27 <Warrigal> > let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in map (unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?"
02:10:29 <lambdabot> ["what do you do","my eponymous friend"]
02:10:45 <oerjan> yes, beth_0 = aleph_0 = cardinality of natural numbers
02:11:03 <ehird> oerjan: oh, how boring, i thought it was a cute factorial-like thing
02:11:17 <oerjan> and for larger non-successors, aleph and beth are continuous (preserving limits)
02:11:21 <Warrigal> I'd say that the log base two of aleph_zero is well-defined but nonexistent.
02:11:24 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that was actually my own notation too a long time ago, but I never used it because I didn't know that other people had invented it too (although I had suspected it before, but never actually known it). Yes I would know that's what "beth" is.
02:11:39 <ehird> > let expotorial 0 = 1; expotorial n = n ^ expotorial (n-1) in map expotorial [1..3]
02:11:42 <ehird> > let expotorial 0 = 1; expotorial n = n ^ expotorial (n-1) in map expotorial [1..5]
02:11:43 <lambdabot> [1,2,9,262144,6206069878660874470748320557284679309194219265199117173177383...
02:11:48 <ehird> that's some nice blowup
02:12:15 <Warrigal> > let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in unlines $ map (("<ehird> " ++) . unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?"
02:12:17 <lambdabot> "<ehird> what do you do\n<ehird> my eponymous friend\n"
02:12:35 <ehird> > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = factorial n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..5]
02:12:40 <ehird> > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = fact n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..5]
02:12:41 <Warrigal> Great, now make that into an interpreter.
02:12:44 <ehird> > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = fact n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..10]
02:12:45 <lambdabot> [1,2,12,288,34560,24883200,125411328000,5056584744960000,183493347225108480...
02:12:51 <zzo38> # Appears as Jordan
02:12:52 <ehird> hmm i prefer expotorial
02:13:46 <zzo38> That's a Microsoft Chat code (usually uses DATA command). I see it whenever I connect to a channel that people using Microsoft Comic Chat. I don't use it myself, though
02:14:08 <Warrigal> !addinterp eehird haskell main = interact (let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in unlines $ map (("<ehird> " ++) . unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower)
02:14:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter eehird installed.
02:14:09 <oerjan> ehird: looks like the beginning of something ackermann-like
02:14:22 <ehird> zzo38: nobody's connected with microsoft comic chat...
02:14:29 <Warrigal> !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say?
02:14:31 <ehird> I deleted regular ehird
02:14:33 <zzo38> I know that. That's why I am just kidding
02:14:48 <oerjan> actually, aleph_(n+1) = minimum _well-orderable_ cardinality > aleph_n, if you don't even assume the axiom of choice
02:14:53 <Warrigal> !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say?
02:15:20 <ehird> oerjan: what we really need is f_0(x,y) = x+y, f_1(x,y) = x*y, f_2(x,y) = x^y, f_3(x,y) = not sure what it's called
02:15:25 <ehird> i'd code it but i'm a bit lazy
02:15:35 <ehird> then we could do fun fun things
02:15:46 <ehird> !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say?
02:15:53 <ehird> 02:15 CTCP-query unknown(DCC CHAT) from EgoBot : chat 1077849409 10052
02:16:56 <oerjan> ehird: i think that may be considered a variant of the ackermann function already
02:17:03 <ehird> oerjan: sudan, no?
02:17:17 <oerjan> huh? haven't heard that name
02:17:22 * Zuu eats zzo38
02:17:27 <ehird> oerjan: it's the first non-primitive recursion thingy
02:18:05 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in map (op 1) [1..]
02:18:06 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
02:18:18 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 1) [1..] [2..]
02:18:19 <lambdabot> [2,6,12,20,30,42,56,72,90,110,132,156,182,210,240,272,306,342,380,420,462,5...
02:18:30 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 2) [1..] [2..]
02:18:31 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
02:18:45 <oerjan> ehird: hm no the sudan function doesn't equal that...
02:18:48 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x 1 = x; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 2) [1..] [2..]
02:18:52 <ehird> oerjan: closer, though
02:18:52 <lambdabot> [1,8,81,1024,15625,279936,* Exception: stack overflow
02:19:03 <ehird> > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x 1 = x; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 3) [1..] [2..]
02:19:13 <ehird> that's some hefty function
02:19:24 * ehird puts mathematica on the job
02:19:38 <zzo38> I have read Godel,Escher,Bach book. And I also played a text-adventure game Goose,Egg,Badger
02:21:18 <ehird> we can't even calculate the first ten op[3,n,2]s
02:22:01 <ehird> oerjan: not even the first five
02:22:10 <zzo38> If you have Mathematica, can you answer the Three Fundamental Questions of Mathematica Player, now?
02:22:19 <ehird> oerjan: op[3, n, 2] starts {1, 4, 27, 256}, anyway
02:22:58 <ehird> oerjan: huh {1, 4, 27, 256} is the start of the sequence (sum of digits of n)^n
02:23:12 <ehird> also Write n in decimal, omit 0's, raise each digit k to k-th power and multiply.
02:23:16 <ehird> also n^(initial digit of n).
02:23:20 <ehird> after an initial 1
02:23:29 <zzo38> How large a number can be entered in Mathematica and Mathematica Player, whether numbers can be pasted into Mathematica Player, and whether Mathematica Player can convert strings to expressions.
02:23:41 <oerjan> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_operator
02:24:05 <ehird> zzo38: Mathematica supports bignums and arbitrary-precision reals and the like, what's that supposed to mean, what's that supposed to mean.
02:24:09 <ehird> Mathematica Player doesn't let you code anything.
02:24:12 <ehird> Just run existing notebooks.
02:24:16 <ehird> zzo38: just pirate Mathematica
02:24:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Just install Maxima.
02:24:34 <ehird> oerjan: hmm that's sad :(
02:24:40 <ehird> zzo38: don't do what pikhq says
02:24:41 <zzo38> ehird: I would rather not if I can avoid it.
02:24:45 <ehird> and can't do half the things mathematica does
02:24:48 <ehird> zzo38: then pony up the $1,000+
02:24:57 <ehird> and support the immoral selling of unscarce goods
02:25:14 <ehird> pikhq: Maxima is legal, and oh my god this system is awfultastic.
02:25:21 <ehird> And has not the gigantic library of Mathematica.
02:25:43 <ehird> I don't think you've used Mathematica :P
02:25:52 <oerjan> ehird: really, that is too obvious to be new. i am pretty sure i also reinvented it at one point.
02:25:59 <zzo38> I know Mathematica has ToExpression. You can't load data from files or input strings in Mathematica Player, but it doesn't say anything about ToExpression not working.
02:25:59 <pikhq> I'm well-aware that GHC is not a CAS.
02:26:22 <ehird> zzo38: it presumably supports everything apart from coding yourself. Okay, I have a third option now; it's free or cheap.
02:26:24 <zzo38> If anyone has the player can you test it?
02:26:33 <ehird> zzo38: Get into a good university that has a copy of Mathematica.
02:26:39 <ehird> Or, get into any university and get a student discount.
02:27:26 <ehird> oerjan: OK so what i was talking about is tetration
02:27:46 <pikhq> Which is much easier to compute.
02:27:50 <ehird> the next one appears to be 65.536
02:28:07 <ehird> 1, 4, 27, 256, 3,125
02:28:18 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Tetration_escape.gif
02:28:21 <ehird> smells like mandelbrot
02:29:50 <lambdabot> [1,4,27,256,3125,46656,823543,16777216,387420489,10000000000,285311670611,8...
02:30:17 <ehird> oerjan: ha, so op n = join (op (n-1))?
02:31:04 <ehird> oerjan: so it only applies to tetration?
02:31:11 <ehird> remember that op (n-1) = (^) in this cae
02:31:19 <ehird> its because of the extra argument
02:31:19 <pikhq> > join (+) <$> [1..]
02:31:21 <lambdabot> [2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52,...
02:31:22 <ehird> it only covers one type of tetration
02:31:27 <Warrigal> Cute Rock, Paper, Scissors variant: there are six choices, A, B, C, D, E, and F; and A < B, A > C, A > D, A > E, A > F, B < C, B > D, B < E, B < F, C > D, C > E, C > F, D > E, D > F, and E > F.
02:31:27 <zzo38> Is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Suxesol turing-complete?
02:31:29 <ehird> pikhq: incidentally, here's the perl version of that haskell code
02:31:40 <ehird> probably the shortest, most direct so far
02:31:56 <ehird> zzo38: Uhh, ask an oracle.
02:32:06 <pikhq> ehird: Sure, but that's Perl.
02:32:12 <zzo38> I'm asking for your opinion, though.
02:32:27 <zzo38> Do you think it is turing-comlpete? Do you think it works?
02:32:40 <ehird> zzo38: I don't know. It looks TC.
02:32:49 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, not all of Perl is bad.
02:32:53 <pikhq> Turing completeness is not a matter of opinion. :P
02:33:16 <Warrigal> Yes, but probable Turing completeness is.
02:33:17 <pikhq> ehird: Sure; pretend it's shell scripting with more features and you'll do alright.
02:33:25 <ehird> pikhq: Or use Moose.
02:33:29 <GregorR> pikhq: It's a matter of flavor.
02:33:38 <ehird> I mean, "x foo y" being "foo (y) { x }" for a control structure is clever
02:33:50 <ehird> And the $_ stuff, while sometimes icky, does make for very direct code.
02:33:58 <pikhq> GregorR: Anosmic says what?
02:33:58 <zzo38> I know turing complete is not a matter of opinion. I want your opinion on whether you think it is turing complete, not on whether or not it really is turing complete (unless you can prove it, in which case do prove it).
02:34:05 <ehird> foreach my $x (@ARGV) { say $x; } looks stupid.
02:34:33 <ehird> pikhq: Perl 6's object system for Perl 5; plus a shitload of CPAN modules. Postmodern. Meta-object protocol included. http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Moose-0.87/lib/Moose.pm
02:34:38 <Warrigal> zzo38: can you write predecessor in it?
02:34:42 <ehird> Empathetically a best practice.
02:34:45 <GregorR> pikhq: For the first time I realized that red wine and coffee taste exactly the same to me. I'd never had both in close proximity before, so I was like "wtf ... this is just like that coffee ... but cold"
02:34:57 <ehird> pikhq: Also, plays well with code using Perl 5's object system directly; it's an extension.
02:35:02 <pikhq> GregorR: ... Wine and *coffee* taste exactly the same to you?
02:35:09 <pikhq> No wonder you don't like either.
02:35:17 <ehird> Wine is disgusting, but coffee is lovely.
02:35:21 <ehird> How on earth can that work? :P
02:35:37 <GregorR> ehird: I'm hyposmic, it severely reduces my ability to taste most beverages. Both taste like bitter, very-slightly-sour water to me.
02:35:47 <zzo38> Warrigal: Let's see if I can, I thought of it before but now I forgot, so I will try again.
02:35:54 <pikhq> ehird: Wine is rather tasty.
02:36:14 <pikhq> ehird: You must have had shit wine.
02:36:29 <pikhq> Or just don't like the taste. That works, too...
02:36:31 <Warrigal> If you can swap two numbers on the stack and you have predecessor, I'm pretty sure it's TC.
02:36:37 * oerjan likes both red wine and coffee, fwiw
02:36:52 <ehird> Wine and beer: It may fuck up both your mind and your liver, but you get to taste a foul taste!
02:37:49 <pikhq> ehird: ... If you abuse it...
02:38:14 <pikhq> Just don't be an idiot.
02:38:17 <ehird> pikhq: Are you telling me you have the ability to drink alcoholic drinks and come out of it 100% unintoxicated?
02:38:23 <zzo38> 0!1!0@1@ can swap two numbers on the stack
02:39:10 <pikhq> Oh, wait. "100% unintoxicated".
02:39:12 <ehird> pikhq is an android.
02:39:27 <pikhq> You probably count any alcohol in the blood as intoxication.
02:39:32 <Warrigal> So implement a tape using two integers. Double them, halve them, and test them for oddness.
02:39:38 <oerjan> zzo38: hm, can a subroutine call a later subroutine?
02:39:51 <oerjan> oh wait, you have infinity
02:40:39 <zzo38> I guess you could make it call a later subroutine (although BlooP can't, but Suxesol doesn't say it can't, so I guess it can).
02:41:01 <oerjan> store and fetch manipulate deep stack, do they?
02:41:08 <ehird> zzo38: BlooP isn't TC, btw.
02:41:24 <zzo38> Store and fetch manipulate the variable storage. Probably I should mention that.
02:41:31 <zzo38> ehird: But FlooP is.
02:41:42 <zzo38> And FlooP is the same as BlooP except it has infinite loops.
02:42:31 <oerjan> zzo38: with a variable storage i expect you can do a minsky machine rather easily
02:43:25 <oerjan> or a bounded tape length bf, may be even easier
02:45:01 <oerjan> the possibility of giving max loop times in advance should be useable for decrementing, i think
02:45:30 <Warrigal> The next question is whether arbitrary Turing machines can be compiled into it and run in polynomial time with their original running times.
02:45:42 <ehird> running times are irrelevant for TCness
02:45:44 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that's what I was thinking too. I thought I had figured it out but I forgot.
02:47:22 <zzo38> You can toggle a single-bit value in a specified cell by 0!1 0@! 0@[0 0@!] (I think)
02:47:36 <oerjan> Warrigal: that seems unlikely if you cannot get to deep stack and have ... wait
02:47:52 <oerjan> zzo38: do you have infinite number of variable cells?
02:47:52 <Warrigal> If there isn't a term, I coin the terms "repaliant" and "polynomially Turing complete".
02:48:18 <Warrigal> Two stacks is as efficient as one tape.
02:48:34 <zzo38> Yes there is a infinite number of variable cells (since numbers are unbounded, if the cell's address is a number then it would be assumed the infinite number of variable cells)
02:48:52 <Warrigal> BF-style doubling and halving are not as efficient as constant-time pushing and popping.
02:49:02 <oerjan> Warrigal: but an integer that can only be incremented cannot implement either a stack or a tape polynomially
02:49:26 <oerjan> zzo38: in that case i think an unbounded brainfuck tape length is also possible
02:49:37 <Warrigal> Then find a way to decrement it.
02:49:51 <oerjan> Warrigal: er, decrementing doesn't help either
02:50:17 <Warrigal> In which case I have no objection to anything you said.
02:51:13 <zzo38> I think I have figured out the function for decrementing the number: 0 0!0[0@[+]1 0!] If I have mistake please notify.
02:51:13 <oerjan> zzo38: and that should also make it possible to do it polynomially as Warrigal suggested
02:51:34 <zzo38> O no, I just realized I wrote it wrong.
02:51:43 <oerjan> or ... yes i think you can
02:51:46 <zzo38> I will fix it and re-post it.
02:52:31 <oerjan> zzo38: i think a bounded cell but unbounded tape length brainfuck implementation with polynomial efficiency may be possible
02:53:07 <oerjan> hm wait even unbounded might be, the decrementing is bad but not superpolynomial...
02:53:31 <zzo38> I think I wrote it right now.
02:53:39 <zzo38> 0 0!0 1![1@0@[+]1 0!]1@
02:56:52 <oerjan> x y ! stores number x in variable y?
02:57:56 <oerjan> i don't see the point of cell 1 there, it is always made 0
02:58:32 <zzo38> Sorry I think I wrote it wrong again.
02:59:03 <zzo38> 0 0!0 1![1@0@[+]1!1 0!]1@
03:00:11 <oerjan> [+] essentially sums the two numbers on top of stack, doesn't it
03:02:49 <oerjan> i think that's correct
03:23:09 <zzo38> In Mathematica Player, it says all interactive content must be generated with the Manipulate command, it says InputField[x,Number] works normally. Does it mean InputField has to be inside of a Manipulate?
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03:27:11 <zzo38> Is this Mathematica code valid: ToExpression[FromCharacterCode[RealDigits[InputField[0,Number],128]]]
03:32:53 <zzo38> Maybe this code is better: Manipulate[ToExpression[FromCharacterCode[RealDigits[codes,128]]],{codes}]
03:33:12 <zzo38> I really don't know, because I don't know Mathematica very well I just try to read the documentation and try to figure it out.
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03:52:58 <zzo38> However, the demonstration guidelines says that InputField is not supported by Mathematica Player but the other page says it does but only numbers. Someone should fix the inconsistency
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05:28:37 <Warrigal> I should get a coherent tab system.
05:29:26 <Warrigal> There was a poll along those lines. "What data structure are your tabs: a queue, a stack, or a map?"
05:29:38 <Warrigal> I was sad, for my tabs were a map.
05:30:34 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood_: RUN, RUN AWAY
05:31:02 <Warrigal> Anyway, I've put some minimal thought to it, and decided that I should use my tabs as a queue.
05:31:40 <Warrigal> Because while a queue guarantees that every page will be visited, this doesn't compare to the topology preservation a stack provides.
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05:32:51 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood_: back when i discovered tvtropes, i was on IE6 with no tabs, so it got to be a stack by necessity. let's just say i rarely ever got back to the top.
05:33:39 <oerjan> a bottomless internet pit
05:34:57 <oerjan> (it expanded way beyond tv long before i got to it)
05:36:51 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature) (warning, contains link to tvtropes ;D)
05:48:52 <oerjan> you're immune? good, then there is someone to rebuild civilization after we get sucked in...
05:49:27 <oerjan> (actually, i'm much less addicted now than i was in the beginning. knock on wood.)
05:50:16 <pikhq> oerjan: It's hard to remain addicted.
05:50:21 <pikhq> Eventually you read the whole thing.
05:50:44 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood_: It's a wiki. A massive wiki.
05:50:50 <pikhq> With interesting things.
05:56:00 <pikhq> You'll note that the same issue happens with that.
05:58:45 <oerjan> i think xkcd had a comic on that too
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06:53:54 <Warrigal> `wolfram melting point of apples
06:54:05 <HackEgo> melting point of apples \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ apples \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ 29.3 °C degrees Celsius \ Unit conversions: \ \ 302.5 K kelvins \ Thermal properties: \ \ melting point optimal storage temperature specific heat \ \ 29.3 °C 1.5 °C 3.64 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
06:54:52 <Warrigal> Make it use forward slashes and collapse them when you have multiple in a row.
06:55:15 <Warrigal> melting point of apples // Input interpretation: // apples / Result: // melting point // . . .
06:55:56 * Warrigal licks a stamp and sticks it to GregorR's transparent, glossy exterior.
06:56:42 * oerjan read that as posterior. or something close.
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10:25:31 <Pthing> the tvtropes realisation isn't novel
10:25:48 <Pthing> the duplication of the panels with changes rung on interested noises
10:25:51 <AnMaster> Pthing, um... I have never had that problem before tvtropes
10:25:59 <AnMaster> so I completely agree with xkcd today
10:26:07 <Pthing> man people have been talking about it ever since the web was invented
10:26:19 <Pthing> that was the whole point behind """surfing the web"""
10:26:42 <AnMaster> Pthing, I tend to not get lost in links while using the web
10:26:47 <Pthing> and people have been ascribing *that* to tvtropes ever since it opened
10:27:05 <Pthing> also the rickrolling mention in the past panel
10:27:14 <AnMaster> the duplication of panel is for the effect.
10:27:17 <Pthing> seems to be there solely as the xkcd version of a laugh track
10:27:47 <Pthing> it doesn't really work?
10:27:52 <Pthing> how is it like rickrolling
10:28:17 <Pthing> the idea of rickrolling was tricking somebody into something unexpected, the basis behind a million practical jokes
10:28:42 <AnMaster> Pthing, yes, but first time you get linked to tvtropes, the effect is unexpected
10:29:02 <Pthing> if you manage to ignore everyone who ever talks about it mentioning that fact
10:29:22 <AnMaster> Pthing, first time I ran into it was before everyone talked about it
10:29:34 <Pthing> then you weren't tricked
10:29:51 <Pthing> HEY LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE IT WON'T TAKE YOU LONG TO READ IT ;)
10:30:13 <Pthing> OH GOODNESS I HAVE ONLY READ A TINY PORTION OF IT AND IT HAS BEEN THREE HOURS, WHAT A TREMENDOUS UNEXPECTED TRICK!!!
10:30:30 <AnMaster> Pthing, quite plausible for tvtropes
10:30:45 <AnMaster> Pthing, I pulled that trick on someone else actually.
10:30:57 <Pthing> congratulations, you are as terrible as randall munroe
10:31:35 <AnMaster> Pthing, it wasn't a very nice person, someone even worse than ehird
10:32:39 * AnMaster wonders why ripping this cd is so slow
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11:43:20 <ehird> 02:18:06 <AnMaster> xkcd is great today!
11:43:25 <ehird> you like the worst xkcd in ages
11:43:35 <ehird> and find great delight enough to share this! with exclamation marks! and "hahah"
11:43:40 <ehird> even the most obnoxious "hahah"
11:43:50 <ehird> and you claim authority on comic rankings.
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11:44:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't. But you shouldn't claim that either.
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11:47:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> even the most ? "hahah" <-- how do you mean obnoxious
11:47:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> even the most obnoxious "hahah" <-- how do you mean obnoxious?
11:47:50 <ehird> 11:43 ehird: even the most obnoxious "hahah"
11:48:24 <ehird> "so true" in response to a piece of alleged humour is among the most retardedly obnoxious phrases the human race can procure
11:48:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but you said "hahah" not "so true"
11:48:48 <ehird> 11:47 ehird: 11:43 ehird: even the most obnoxious "hahah"
11:48:49 <ehird> 11:47 ehird: s/hahah/so true/
11:49:02 <ehird> no, I said hahah the line before
11:50:34 <ehird> AnMaster: your rip is slow because you're using cdparanoia and it reads everything N times.
11:52:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it did find some issues though... man page says a + on the progress bar means "Unreported loss of streaming/other error in read"
11:52:18 <ehird> http://www.plextoramericas.com/index.php/dvd-rw ;; damn, the plextor site is 1990s
11:53:11 <ehird> A plus indicates not only frame jitter, but an unreported, uncorrected loss of streaming in the middle of an atomic read operation. That is, the drive lost its place while reading data, and restarted in some random incorrect location without alerting the kernel. This case is also corrected by Paranoia.
11:53:29 <ehird> http://www.xiph.org/paranoia/faq.html#progbar
11:54:31 <ehird> AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect
11:54:44 <ehird> if you have a !, it's been corrected, but your drive or disc are probably FUBAR.
11:54:59 <ehird> (and thus other instances will go undetected)
11:56:15 <AnMaster> I mean, what does it actually mean
11:56:26 <ehird> that two blocks overlapped properly, but they were skewed (frame jitter).
11:56:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Physically, it means that your CD jittered.
11:56:35 <ehird> Or rather, the laser.
11:57:10 <ehird> 11:54 ehird: AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect
11:57:13 <ehird> I retract this for X's
11:57:23 <ehird> if you have a good drive and it can detect X's all the time, it'll be the best you'll get
11:57:40 <ehird> tbh ripping properly is such a pain that piracy is easier :)
11:58:09 <ehird> then the rip is fine
11:58:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I love the smiley thingy
12:00:30 <ehird> Relatedly: 8-| is the same situation as !, ;-( is the same as eX*V.
12:00:50 <AnMaster> no ;-( is same as V only it seems
12:00:57 <ehird> 11:54 ehird: AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect
12:01:00 <ehird> I meant it's in the same family
12:02:21 * AnMaster listens to http://musicbrainz.org/release/c4479a37-6830-4f3d-8091-b29e173050a5.html
12:02:47 <ehird> using the musicbrainz website as a URI for music?
12:02:49 <AnMaster> track 4 to be specifc, very nice.
12:02:56 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems accurate enough
12:02:59 <ehird> you mean http://musicbrainz.org/track/d57d37d0-4318-42d6-9967-60aed46315bc.html
12:03:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't very good for actually talking about the tracks and such hm
12:03:45 <AnMaster> good for general info about the cd or such though
12:04:08 <ehird> AnMaster: everything's one click away
12:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, two clicks: right click link, select "open in browser"
12:04:43 <ehird> AnMaster: the cd requires that too
12:04:50 <ehird> also, what kind of client doesn't open links in browsers when you click them?
12:05:04 <ehird> "Hurr, clicking should... um... make the link turn pink."
12:05:25 <ehird> how is click-to-open-URL-in-browser ever not sane
12:05:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I often click in the window just to focus it
12:05:44 <AnMaster> sometimes that happens to be a link
12:05:54 <ehird> AnMaster: os x separates focus clicks and inside clicks
12:05:59 <AnMaster> and often I want to select the link instead
12:06:02 <ehird> normally you'd have the same issue with a browser too; that's an X11 problem
12:06:05 <ais523_> ehird: all OSes do that, even Windows
12:06:07 <ehird> so do you do the same for the browser?
12:06:17 <ehird> ais523_: apparently AnMaster begs to differ.
12:06:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't work that way in the browser for some reaso
12:06:29 <ais523_> probably the client's set up to open links even on focus clicks
12:06:38 <ais523_> which probably is a bad idea
12:06:43 <ehird> So basically, you're saying, "insane clients that do X are insane".
12:06:48 <ehird> Which is a very silly thing to do.
12:06:52 <ais523_> but the fix is "open only on non-focusing clicks" rather than "don't open links on clicks at all"
12:07:25 <AnMaster> I often want to copy the link instead
12:07:34 <ehird> Right click, copy link.
12:07:54 <AnMaster> ehird, often end of link detection is imperfect too
12:08:03 <AnMaster> consider a link followed by a .
12:08:06 <ehird> Select the misdetected end, drag to other end of link.
12:08:09 <AnMaster> sometimes that is actually part of the url
12:08:45 <ehird> Here's a screenshot of the Copy URL item:
12:08:56 <ehird> it didn't enter the screenshot
12:08:59 * AnMaster now listens to http://musicbrainz.org/track/9a6e1605-55e3-4e3c-bae5-290f006a5e65.html
12:09:08 <ehird> basically, if you right click on a link you can get a copy URL or whatever, option
12:09:38 <AnMaster> ehird, that is there too *shrug*
12:10:59 <AnMaster> then I just have to double-click the url
12:11:21 <AnMaster> but atm I'm using a GUI client on the bouncer
12:12:09 <AnMaster> anyone remembers "microsoft chat"?
12:13:26 <ehird> It has come to your mind because zzo38 mentioned it yesterday.
12:13:28 * AnMaster looks for his sleeve with http://musicbrainz.org/release/c81f9a16-d42e-40d9-aa87-15f11767a644.html in
12:13:45 <AnMaster> I was just considering what on earth a "GUI irc client" is
12:13:51 <AnMaster> really it sounds rather strange
12:13:59 <AnMaster> considering it is just a text window really
12:14:17 <AnMaster> the comics mode in MS chat must be a "GUI" client though
12:15:02 <AnMaster> I even missed zzo was here yesterday
12:15:06 <ehird> AnMaster: you are using a GUI irc client. it uses shitty control code characters to paint (a) a pane with a label, (b) a window with text, with formatting (irc colours, separating nicknames/times etc) and URLs.
12:15:14 <ehird> and (c) a rich input field
12:15:21 <ehird> and (d) a status line
12:15:34 <AnMaster> ehird, um, atm I'm actually using xchat
12:15:36 <ehird> if you use a fancy one like WeeChat, maybe even a list of items, i.e. the users in the channel.
12:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: then why are you wondering what a GUI irc client is/
12:15:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm wondering if xchat is really that much "GUI"
12:16:54 <ehird> many GUI applications are minimalist
12:17:22 <ehird> really, all curses programs tend to be almost entirely uniformly restricted GUIs grafted on to a vt100
12:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I had to either add nearly all the classical cds I had, or at least add puids/discids to them
12:19:13 <AnMaster> so they couldn't be automatically identified
12:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, for the non-classical cds it was usually no problem at all.
12:19:56 <ehird> Well, it has better coverage now.
12:20:04 <AnMaster> ehird, still about 30 cds to add...
12:20:08 <ehird> Yeah, I'm thinking the main thing it lacks is classical, rather than obscure music.
12:20:14 <AnMaster> however. I will add them next time I listen
12:20:54 <ehird> I'm glad I don't like classical for the mostpart; otherwise tagging would be a bitch.
12:20:59 <AnMaster> ehird, my plan is not to add all 30 or so in one go, but next time I take one out to listen to it anyway I will add it if missing.
12:21:00 <ehird> Way too complicated.
12:21:57 <AnMaster> luckily they are NOT "various artists" (those are a real pain to add!)..
12:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ever added any "various artists" where half of the artists were missing?
12:22:41 <ehird> that's never happened to me. i generally don't listen to compilations so VA cds are rare.
12:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, IMO they should be renamed: complications
12:24:01 <ehird> (the reason i don't listen to compilations is twofold: (a) artistic sentiment blah blah blah (sort of invalid because i shuffle tracks), (b) if i get an album that has the same track, it'll be an evul duplicate)
12:24:08 <AnMaster> especially since it seems the "link artist" popupish thingy got some sort of focus problems
12:24:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ah! you are missing out of the joy of classical here!
12:24:52 <AnMaster> collect the *best recordings of Vivaldi's music*
12:25:08 <AnMaster> personally I'm rather fond of the recordings by City of London Sinfonia.
12:25:29 <ehird> But I don't like classical music… (generally)
12:25:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well, then you are missing out of it
12:25:57 <ehird> AnMaster: by your logic, you're missing out on death metal
12:26:01 <AnMaster> just one canonical performance? Bah.
12:26:44 <AnMaster> but that is still much less than for classical music, where you could consider *all of them* as covers.
12:27:03 <ehird> I'll have you know I only listen to the authentic original recording of 4'33"
12:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't that the all silent one?
12:27:43 <ehird> No, it is not silence.
12:28:05 <ehird> The band consists of everything present that makes noise.
12:29:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″ is missing "In popular culture"
12:30:48 <ehird> and thank god for that
12:31:06 <ehird> [[There was a similar recording titled: "The Best of Marcel Marceau" available in the seventies lasting a bit longer than four minutes and thirty-three seconds.]]
12:31:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Because "In popular culture" is insipid and useless: http://xkcd.com/446/
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12:32:05 <ehird> 12:31 AnMaster: why?
12:32:09 <ehird> you didn't seem to follow up on that
12:32:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> [[There was a similar recording titled: "The Best of Marcel Marceau" available in the seventies lasting a bit longer than four minutes and thirty-three seconds.]]
12:32:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Because "In popular culture" is insipid and useless: http://xkcd.com/446/
12:32:57 <AnMaster> I was half thinking of something else
12:33:05 <AnMaster> so took a second to get what you meant
12:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, it is easy to perform 4'33"
12:34:42 <ehird> using a stopwatch is cheating.
12:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it says the original performance used one
12:35:08 <ehird> Yes. Cage was cheating.
12:35:16 <ehird> [And then the student was enlightened.]
12:36:36 <AnMaster> ehird, this section should be renamed "in popular culture" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″#References_by_other_artists
12:36:50 <ehird> odd definition of popular culture
12:36:58 <ehird> * In 2009 Petri Purho released "4 Minutes and 33 Seconds of Uniqueness", a computer game which can only be won by a player if they are the only person in the world playing it for four minutes and thirty-three seconds.[32]
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13:06:46 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway 4'33" isn't classical music.
13:07:07 <ehird> It is if someone's playing classical music next door.
13:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, the classical period was roughly between 1750 to 1825 according to wikipedia.
13:08:02 <AnMaster> I refuse to use classical in the vulgar sense
13:08:19 <AnMaster> atm I'm listening to music from the romantic period.
13:08:35 <ehird> Great, time-based music classification. All music made from the 80s onwards is hereforth known as "Spatula music".
13:09:10 <ehird> Music has no inherent relation to the time in which it was produced.
13:09:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not classifying it by time, but after classification you will see that the time actually does roughly match
13:10:09 <ehird> I am certain that there is someone out there still producing music exactly like what you'd call classical from that period.
13:10:55 <AnMaster> there was the neoclassical period too
13:11:08 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism
13:11:23 <ehird> "The termination argument behind the TAPL algorithm for subtyping of equirecursive types is not as scary as it sounds"
13:11:39 <AnMaster> ehird, is this haskell related
13:11:53 <ehird> Only insofar as Haskell has ties to type system academia.
13:42:17 <ehird> Not the Game in your face bitch
13:54:56 <GregorR> * Warrigal licks a stamp and sticks it to GregorR's transparent, glossy exterior.
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13:58:51 <GregorR> Why, I don't like ANY of the implications of that :P
13:59:17 <ehird> Warrigal and oerjan would be a perfect match, clearly.
14:23:18 <AnMaster> ehird, adding those "relationships" as in http://musicbrainz.org/release/c81f9a16-d42e-40d9-aa87-15f11767a644.html is a pain
14:23:42 <ehird> Suggest some UI improvements? I've only done light editing of MusicBrainz but it's been quite painless for me
14:24:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Those tags are inconsistent though
14:24:13 <ehird> "No. 2" but "No.1"/"No.2".
14:24:22 <ehird> Some have "suite", some don't
14:24:25 <AnMaster> ehird, the titles? yeah. I didn't add it.
14:24:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I just added the orchestras.
14:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you can see on the yellow stuff, recently edited things
14:26:33 <AnMaster> ehird, fixed them, vote on the edits!
14:26:52 <ehird> Think I'll have to make a new count. I am the notoriously unreliable at remembering such things.
14:27:07 <ehird> Nice if it used OpenID, although not really as I still haven't set a domain up.
14:27:41 <AnMaster> ehird, ah... you can't vote unless you had at least 10 edits accepted
14:27:55 <ehird> i'll see if i still have my account\
14:28:06 <AnMaster> I can't vote yet because I only have one edit accepted so far. I have 45 pending ones.
14:28:18 * ehird attempts to disable tabbing in his browser
14:28:25 <ehird> AnMaster: 45? wow, that's some dedication\
14:28:30 <ehird> I hate this enter key
14:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, also it needs 3 votes to accept. times out after 2 weeks.
14:28:37 <ehird> \ should go above enter, not next to it!
14:28:43 <ehird> DAAAAAAAMN YOU TWO-LINE ENTER!!!!
14:29:05 <AnMaster> where time out action = pass/fail based on votes
14:29:27 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, more than 45 now
14:29:32 <AnMaster> "Found 52 edits matching the current selection."
14:30:41 <AnMaster> that is stuff like adding puids and discids
14:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, since half of the stuff isn't there I'm forced to do this!
14:31:25 <ehird> it's your fault for listening to classical :)
14:32:06 <AnMaster> I cancelled one edit, superseded by a new edit without typo, so down to 51 open edits.
14:32:10 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway http://musicbrainz.org/mod/search/pre/editor.html?userid=467550
14:32:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> DAAAAAAAMN YOU TWO-LINE ENTER!!!! <-- I'm used to two line enter
14:33:00 <ehird> i was but i now prefer the layout where the slightly larger than normal \ key is above a two-key wide enter
14:33:39 <ehird> Could not log in: Either the user name you entered does not exist, or the given password did not match the one stored on the server. Please try again ;; I wish sites would tell you which; it's barely any security gained
14:35:42 <ehird> I wonder how long until I regret disabling tabs
14:40:47 <ehird> because they're actually just a hack for not having a good window manager (eg pwm, fluxbox, pekwm and others can tab windows)
14:40:54 <ehird> i'm going to see if i have a good window manager :)
14:41:25 <AnMaster> "Could not log in: One of these happend: a) The user name you entered does not exist. b) The given password did not match the one stored on the server. c) There was some sort of internal server error. d) Other"
14:41:39 <AnMaster> suggestion for new more ambiguous error :P
14:42:38 <ehird> The login failed because of quantum.
14:42:51 * AnMaster listens to http://musicbrainz.org/track/a906855a-90ab-4ec9-bc85-fb3f1f93bef5.html
14:43:00 * ehird reënables tabs, victim to a bad window manager
14:43:10 <ehird> AnMaster: you should script that. call it now-playing.
14:43:12 <ehird> i'm sure it'll be a hit.
14:43:15 <ehird> everyone will do it.
14:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, extract metadata from vlc somehow?
14:43:57 <ehird> vlc as a music player? how bizarre
14:44:03 <ehird> well okay not that bizarre
14:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird, except I'm playing this from a CD. And I'm using vlc to play the cd
14:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird, so the only info I have on it is the cddb entry
14:44:45 <AnMaster> all it says is "Grieg - Lyric Suite, Op. 54 No.4, March of the Dwarfs"
14:45:02 <AnMaster> when I play a flac that I handled in picard already it will contain the id
14:45:30 <ehird> has anyone else never really used virtual desktops?
14:45:44 <ehird> you know, multiple workspaces
14:45:57 <ehird> i try them every year or so and come back with the impression that it's totally useless with a non-paltry sized screen
14:46:03 <ehird> i'm just wondering if i'm weird
14:46:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I use them a bit, but most stuff on one desktop
14:46:39 <ehird> i wonder if i can make the delay on hovering over the dock before it appears shorter
14:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird, if it was linux you could always do that ;P
14:47:21 <ehird> i -am- switching to linux
14:47:37 <AnMaster> ehird, if gnome, probably by hacking the source, or by gconfedit. if KDE by some well hidden setting
14:47:52 <ehird> the gconf editor is fine tbh
14:47:58 <ehird> i don't think gnome has all that many source-only things
14:48:20 <AnMaster> ehird, bah, stop destroying fine stereotypes!
14:48:23 <ehird> AnMaster: with a lisp machine, by pressing whatever keycombo gives you the menu to click "Edit Source"
14:48:31 <ehird> and changing it immediately :)
14:48:45 <ehird> or, by changing a (defvar dock-hover-delay ...) or whatever in the source
14:48:55 <ehird> or with a gui that changes foo-bar-baz into Foo Bar Baz
14:48:57 <ehird> like M-x customize does
14:49:11 <ehird> after all, lisp machines were pretty much system-wide emacs done right...
14:49:24 <AnMaster> why does scheme use define for both defvar and defun
14:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: because (define (foo x) ...) = (define foo (lambda (x) ...))
14:50:06 <ehird> common lisp is a lisp-2, i.e. function/variable namespaces are separate
14:50:10 <ehird> scheme is a lisp-1, i.e. one namespace for everything
14:50:17 <ehird> languages like python, etc are lisp-1
14:50:26 <ehird> not many things are lisp-2
14:50:33 <ehird> AnMaster: pretty much; with common lisp you can't do
14:50:36 <ehird> (mapcar function ...)
14:50:40 <ehird> (mapcar #'function ...)
14:50:47 <ehird> and you can name variables list and still do (list 1 2 3)
14:50:56 <ehird> give me naming variables "lst" any day
14:51:00 <AnMaster> I guess erlang is erlang-2, kind of
14:51:11 <ehird> AnMaster: i think so
14:51:35 <AnMaster> Variables always start with a capital or _. Atoms start with lower case. BUT you can use single quotes around to make anything an atom
14:51:44 <AnMaster> function names must be valid atoms
14:52:06 <AnMaster> so calling 'To be or not be a function'(X, Y, Z) works
14:52:38 <ehird> AnMaster: in 3 seconds, please highlight me
14:53:13 <ehird> to see if I managed to conquer LimeChat's habit of leaving Growl highlight notifications on the screen until I click them
14:53:19 <ehird> (I did, by fixing it in the Growl settings)
14:53:29 <AnMaster> btw. I'm off for about an hour.
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15:06:08 <ehird> Post-reboot, my mac is running happier and faster. Yay.
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15:16:52 <ehird> GregorR: Which part?
15:17:06 <ehird> The exhaust is full of brown stuff.
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15:21:16 <ehird> I wonder if there's a patch you can do to put the Happy Mac logo back on your boot screen.
15:21:44 <GregorR> As well as the olde boot sound?
15:21:56 <GregorR> Even sampled from one of their shit-o speakers so it'll sound right (wrong)
15:22:53 <ehird> GregorR: Sure, the old sound would be nice too.
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15:25:03 * ehird removes two partitions from disk, resizes currently-booted partition to fill their space, without any LVM stuff
15:25:10 <ehird> It's nice to be able to do that.
15:25:13 <ais523> ehird: what were they for?
15:25:22 <ehird> botched arch linux install from a while ago
15:25:29 <ehird> i could use the extra 9GB, i only have like 6GB free
15:25:44 <ehird> hmm more than 9GB if you include the swap i think
15:26:02 <ehird> can any other OS do that, anyway? linux can with lvm
15:26:06 <ehird> but can it with regular partitions?
15:26:16 <ehird> (i.e. partition the disk while booted into it, then resize the currently booted partition)
15:26:52 <ehird> i'll get 10.8GB back for this, hoorah
15:28:48 <ehird> bleah, i can delete the linux partition but not the linux swap one
15:37:37 <ehird> eh, i'll just leave the swap partition for now
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16:00:23 <oerjan> <ehird> you like the worst xkcd in ages
16:00:33 * oerjan swats ehird without mercy -----###
16:00:43 <ehird> IT'S LIKE RICKROLLING BUT YOU'RE TRAPPED ALL DAY HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
16:01:05 <ehird> Other analogies made by Munroe at the time include "HAVING SEX IS LIKE JUMPING OF A BRIDGE; BUT YOU'RE HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE AND NOT JUMPING OF A BRIDGE."
16:01:23 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, you can do that with normal partitions.
16:01:42 <ehird> oerjan: It's a Researched Fact.
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16:01:54 <pikhq> parted and resize2fs.
16:02:15 <pikhq> Heck, even fdisk would work if you're willing to deal with the unsafety involved.
16:20:52 <oerjan> <GregorR> Why, I don't like ANY of the implications of that :P
16:27:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> Post-reboot, my mac is running happier and faster. Yay. <-- doesn't this bother you?
16:27:33 <AnMaster> though I had such issues under one kernel. 2.6.21 I think it was.
16:27:43 <ehird> AnMaster: It would if I had not started an awful lot of applications before.
16:27:48 <AnMaster> (such issues = reboot fixing it)
16:28:08 <ehird> Memory management not picking up stuff, maybe some useless daemons left behind.
16:28:16 <ehird> Definitely, OS X's memory management could be better.
16:29:29 <AnMaster> ehird, similar. I remember having memory fragmentation issues under 2.6.21 (or around there). Some later kernel fixed it by putting movable user pages in one part of the memory and fixed pages for DMA and such in another. Making it easier to free up a contiguous memory block when needed.
16:29:49 <ehird> But really, I just open too much stuff for my RAM.
16:29:54 <ehird> AnMaster: That wasn't intentional, btw
16:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure you didn't intend "mm" as a joke yeah
16:30:43 <ehird> anyway, it's been sailing smoothly since; subjectively the minimalisation I did of the UI beforehand probably helps the feeling.
16:31:38 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, since 2.6.26 or something linux begins putting movable pages in one end and fixed pages in the other (this is a simplification, there is more to things than this), this reduces memory fragmentation quite a bit iirc.
16:32:10 <ehird> OS X's memory management is probably good enough technically; just not tuned for UI responsiveness.
16:32:26 <AnMaster> I had "slow down after some weeks turned on" before that anti-fragmentation thing
16:32:46 <AnMaster> especially disk IO used to suffer
16:33:42 <AnMaster> my only-partly-educated guess is that it was harder for the DMA stuff to find large regions when doing stuff like copying large files between two disks and such
16:36:15 <AnMaster> ehird, ah seems like it was 2.6.24 that fixed it
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17:23:35 * ehird tries to hide menu bar so that his desktop can be 100% gray
17:24:04 <ehird> obsessive-compulsive? unpossible!
17:40:48 <AnMaster> ehird, <insert comment (in order to annoy ehird) about how easy doing that would be under X>
17:41:16 <ehird> notably, I do not choose operating systems based on whether I can hide their menu bar or not
17:41:41 <ehird> damn i was trying to troll you into a tirade about freedom
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17:54:18 <ehird> My new desktop: small, http://imgur.com/VdWzh.png; big, http://imgur.com/n5MxZ.png.
18:00:45 <ehird> No. I don't think so.
18:03:56 <ehird> No. I don't think so.
18:04:03 <AnMaster> btw, how did you hide the HD icon thingy?
18:04:20 <AnMaster> or do I misremember, and it is only Classic MacOS that had it
18:04:26 <ehird> What is the HD icon thingy?
18:04:43 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_Desktop.png <-- it's there
18:04:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Finder → Preferences → General → untick "Hard disks" from "Show these items on the Desktop:".
18:05:23 <ehird> I also disabled the 3D dock, so now it's a lean, mean, autohiding, semi-transparent black, white-bordered-with-curve application switching-and-launching machine.
18:07:01 <AnMaster> can you get the recycle bin on the desktop instead of in the dock in OS X? Just wondering
18:07:25 <ehird> Sure, I guess; make a shortcut to ~/.Trash
18:07:35 <ehird> You probably won't be able to evict it from the Dock, though.
18:11:48 <pikhq> ehird: Needs more K.
18:12:01 <ehird> pikhq: What do you want me to do; heat up my monitor?
18:13:04 <ehird> Strangely, the Graphite theme, though less colourful than Blue, does not leave me feeling more spartan. Back to the prettier Blue.
18:13:09 <ehird> pikhq: So what did you really mean? :-P
18:13:33 <pikhq> A sort of K desktop environment.
18:17:07 <pikhq> And so's my 3D WM.
18:19:57 <ehird> pikhq: you're using a 3D WM?
18:20:09 <ehird> congrats, you hate your sense of usability
18:21:43 <pikhq> Strictly speaking, all that it's doing could be done soley with 2D.
18:21:50 <pikhq> It's merely using OpenGL for speed's sake.
18:22:02 <pikhq> (the fanciest thing it's doing is Exposé-like)
18:24:33 <ehird> pikhq: I thought you used a tiling WM.
18:24:57 <pikhq> I changed my mind on a whim.
18:25:18 <ehird> So… Misguided but well-intentioned attempt at usability → shitty, mass-produced glitzy WM.
18:26:18 <pikhq> Seriously, the only feature of it that requires any compositing that I use at all is the Exposé-like thing...
18:26:31 <ehird> Shush, you. It's still traditional. :P
18:27:04 <pikhq> I thought you were accusing me of using the shitty cube desktop.
18:27:13 <pikhq> And other such completely useless glitz.
18:27:36 <ehird> I have to concede that I haevn't yet used anything better than the traditional floating windows model.
18:37:42 <lambdabot> [[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[]...
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18:44:52 <zzo38> Which esolangs of each inventor do you like best/worst of each?
18:46:10 <ehird> Gee, I'll just research and compile a gigantic list. Right now.
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19:09:59 <zzo38> I now defined a few variations of Suxesol program language (all are optional).
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19:14:40 <ehird> you really like options don't you
19:15:35 <zzo38> Yes those are possible variations on this program language, you can use whichever one you prefer for the case you are working with.
19:16:10 <ehird> zzo38: you should add a configuration option to one of your projects where you can set the code of the program to what you want so it does what you want
19:16:55 <zzo38> I'm not sure I understand you fully.
19:17:48 <ehird> zzo38: well, if you want a program to be 100% configurable
19:17:51 <ehird> then you can do like this:
19:18:01 <ehird> settings['programcode'] = read(this_file)
19:18:07 <ehird> then when it changes
19:18:15 <ehird> execute(this_file);exit()
19:18:28 <ehird> so you can patch the source how you want, thus removing the need for any other configuration options
19:18:59 <zzo38> I have made various programs. I have added a Forth interpreter to MegaZeux.
19:19:22 <ehird> what's that got to do with what i said?
19:19:56 <zzo38> ehird: No, that won't work very well, if you want different program codes you just get the source-codes and re-write it
19:20:11 <ehird> zzo38: but you practically make it do that anyway
19:21:18 <zzo38> What I meant is that you can add stuff to the program using Forth in this way. Not re-writing the entire program but you can add events to run at the hooking points in order to modify how parts of the program works.
19:22:40 <AnMaster> just make the system completely hot-patchable
19:22:57 <AnMaster> which reminds me, I must get the genera thingy working
19:23:05 <ehird> genera on linux is amusing
19:23:08 <ehird> you have to emulate linux
19:23:10 <ehird> which emulates a lisp machine
19:23:17 <ehird> because genera craps all over your environment :D
19:23:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I know, so I'll wait until I have more disk space
19:23:29 <ehird> just put a minimal install on there
19:23:33 <ehird> like 1GB total including genera
19:23:39 <zzo38> I found a web-site of not making any sense at http://ltsun.com/demo/index.php It includes menus that don't make sense, text overlapping other text, some Japanese text with a comment saying not Korean, and other strange things. This is TRWTF
19:23:40 <ehird> you can dispense with window mangement
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19:23:44 <ehird> use genera as the root window
19:23:51 <AnMaster> still haven't got a replacement disk
19:23:58 <ehird> zzo38: it is obviously a demo page
19:24:16 <ehird> LTSun-Engine was designed in response to the unanswered demand of clients and informed web users seeking a way to create, edit, manage, and optimize web content without the cumbersome requirements of other existing CMS.
19:25:06 <ehird> it's marketing bullshit
19:25:10 <ehird> i was just copying from ltsun.com
19:26:28 <AnMaster> was just commenting on how absurd it was
19:31:48 <ehird> In this screenshot, I show off my classy new Dock: http://imgur.com/iCOI4.png
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19:34:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the mouldy orange thingy?
19:34:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Ummm........ do you know what a lime is?
19:34:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I never ate one. I do know the outside of them as they are in the store.
19:35:08 <ehird> Right, well, it's not a lime.
19:35:12 <ehird> It's a mouldy orange.
19:35:56 <AnMaster> so I guess that is mouldyorangechat then?
19:36:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the green bird?
19:36:20 <ehird> That would be a duck...
19:36:29 <ehird> His name is Adiumy.
19:36:34 <AnMaster> right, wasn't sure, what with ducks usually not being green!
19:36:51 <ehird> Adiumy comes in multiple colours.
19:38:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the website for adium? if it is adium.im as wikipedia says, there is dns trouble for it. Even using opendns
19:38:39 <ehird> The hideous dark-blue/light-blue chimera is an application where you input a white person and you input a black person, it merges them.
19:38:46 <ehird> The compass is a GPS application.
19:39:06 <ehird> The arrow pointing to the computer on the folder controls the hard drive's shock resistance protection.
19:39:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what Finder is and I know what Safari is
19:39:15 <ehird> The trash can is, uh, a trash can.
19:39:33 <AnMaster> what is that unusual folder? Really
19:39:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Everything I said after "The hideous" until the start of this line is bullshit. Apart from that thing about the trash can.
19:40:53 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, you know you can't quit finder from any menu?
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19:41:23 <AnMaster> ehird, however, using that speech command thing, you could (at least in Tiger) tell it to "quit application finder" and it would do it
19:41:41 <AnMaster> you could restart it again using "open finder" or something similar
19:42:35 <ehird> Eh, I added Cmd-Q to the Finder with a hack a while back.
19:42:42 <ehird> That was Tiger though.
19:43:23 <AnMaster> guess not, never used under OS X iirc
19:44:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Incidentally, that duck opens its eyes when you run it.
19:44:39 <ehird> What's argh about that? :P
19:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, just a personal hate for icons like the thunderbrid one having a number for number of unread mail (almost always just new spam) and similar
19:45:31 <ehird> oh, it's nothing like that
19:45:40 <ehird> it just changes to open eyes when the app is open, closes them when disconnected
19:45:43 <ehird> it's just a useful indicator
19:46:14 <ehird> if you get a message it does jump up like all applications do when they notify, and does get a little stamp with the number of unread messages, but generally you look at those rather quickly with IM (and you can disable the notification, leaving just the banner)
19:46:22 <AnMaster> ehird, decided what irc client you will use under linux btw?
19:46:25 <ehird> it might flap its wings too; I never look. I just use the Growl notifications.
19:46:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Hadn't even thought about it. Maybe xchat-gnome.
19:46:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you prefer gnome over xmonad?
19:47:08 <ehird> My pick of xchat-gnome isn't inherently gnome-related, it just has a leaner UI.
19:47:26 <ehird> Meh. I might check out KDE 4.3 or whatever.
19:47:43 <ehird> KDE 3 I'm no fan of. It's just cluttery.
19:48:36 <ehird> Requirements: Minimum of 8 years of the following experience: [...] •Microsoft Reporting services 2005
19:48:40 <ehird> — http://newjersey.craigslist.org/eng/1255128352.html
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20:47:04 <ehird> http://imgur.com/X1Hi1.gif
20:47:08 <ehird> L1, L2, RAM, hard disk.
20:47:12 <ehird> One pixel per nanosecond.
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21:06:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, first example of ATHR:
21:06:34 <AnMaster> $ ./efunge tests/athr/02_spawn_simple.b98
21:06:34 <AnMaster> TEST: Will test S followed by Q in the old thread, waiting for input in new thread, then exiting.
21:06:52 <AnMaster> also I need a new host, the current one is down
21:07:03 <AnMaster> and will so be forever (all data is backed up yes)
21:09:24 <AnMaster> "IInn noelwd!!" btw is "In new!" and "In old!" mixing up
21:13:46 <AnMaster> ehird, since the actual pause isn't deterministic, it sometimes ends up as that and other variants.
21:14:34 <AnMaster> it does seem to end up with "IInn noelwd!!" rather often though, *shrug*
21:27:56 <AnMaster> Pthing, ATHR is a fingerprint I'm working on, meant to help befunge keeping it's market share by allowing it to take advantage of multiple cpus/cores.
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21:28:21 <Pthing> but what's the IInn noelwd
21:28:37 <AnMaster> Pthing, two threads printing at once
21:28:43 <AnMaster> thus overwriting each other partly
21:34:31 <Sgeo> AnMaster, "Sgeo" is also mixed up in a similar way
21:35:25 <ehird> Sgeo: Didn't you used to be Oegs or something.
21:36:36 <Sgeo> Um, not that you should have ever seen
21:36:52 <ehird> I think I read it on the Creatures wiki. Also, where does "should" enter in to it?
21:37:01 <ehird> Am I not meant to tread on your kinky sex websites or something?
21:37:06 <ehird> Aww, I preferred it when you were confused.
21:37:22 <Sgeo> It's part of my AIM name, and my name on Wulfram
21:37:40 <Sgeo> Two things which I think you didn't know me from
21:52:53 <AnMaster> with async thread and when you are testing thread sync you get some funny messages: "?tupni eht htiw hguone wols erew uoy erus ,eulav detcepxe daer t'ndiD :DAB YLEKIL"
21:53:03 <AnMaster> I assume you can read backwards without problems
21:54:19 <ehird> No I can't; but irb(1) can.
21:54:58 <ehird> I compulsively use it for things like reversing or doing basic calculations.
21:55:16 <AnMaster> rev(1) is easier, not sure if it is GNU specific or not.
21:55:18 <ehird> I could also use frink and do:
21:55:21 <ehird> "?tupni eht htiw hguone wols erew uoy erus ,eulav detcepxe daer t'ndiD :DAB YLEKIL" -> reverse
21:55:52 <ehird> AnMaster: http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/; a clever calculator/programming languages that knows a metric fuckton of units.
21:56:00 <ehird> (But not the metric fuckton, unfortunately.)
21:56:13 <ehird> AnMaster: It also has things like easy googling, regexps, date processing etc
21:56:35 <ehird> It's for doing calculations involving tangible data from places; conversions and calculations with glue.
21:56:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Unfortunately not; I'm not sure why, though; you could ask him, I suppose.
21:56:52 <ehird> It's Java, though, so you could decompile it.
21:57:21 <ehird> Said person is also behind http://futureboy.us/mithenge/, which is delightfully pointless, especially as it doesn't benefit him.
22:06:22 <ehird> I dislike how LimeChat includes ;s at the end of links.
22:11:58 <ehird> But that would be work.
22:11:59 <Sgeo> I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients
22:12:05 <Sgeo> I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients
22:12:12 <ehird> Sgeo: But that makes you sound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French !
22:14:03 <Sgeo> ugh, damn thing won't stay in
22:14:54 <Sgeo> Why is Basic Instructions down?!
22:15:13 <AnMaster> Sgeo, basic instructions for what?
22:15:48 <Sgeo> And if you say that you know, and were making a joke, sorry
22:16:07 <ehird> Sgeo: AnMaster never know.
22:16:12 <ehird> Basic Instructions is funny though.
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22:16:51 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> ugh, damn thing won't stay in <-- then what was that about?
22:17:02 <ehird> It's what HE said!
22:17:22 <Sgeo> AnMaster, the ethernet wire keeps falling out
22:17:34 <ehird> (By ethernet wire he means penis.)
22:17:37 <AnMaster> is that why you repeated "<Sgeo> I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients" ?
22:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't believe that :P
22:17:56 <Sgeo> AnMaster, yes, I didn't think it came through
22:17:59 <ehird> That's because you don't get jokes.
22:18:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I realised it was a poor attempt at humour yes.
22:18:34 <ehird> He means it for serious.
22:18:58 <AnMaster> since the discussion was about what you said
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22:19:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, fixed the åäö bug yet?
22:20:06 <GregorR> When did you first report said bug?
22:20:21 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:20:26 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:20:36 <ehird> GregorR: two days ago.
22:20:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, it fails for unicode on the command
22:20:51 <ehird> Not on the command.
22:20:52 <ehird> On the filesystem.
22:21:08 <GregorR> That's really bizarre, actually ...
22:21:15 <ehird> GregorR: hg encoding issues, I presume.
22:21:16 <AnMaster> ehird, so fetch is broken if file contains åöä
22:21:25 <GregorR> Except hg has no encoding issues ... at least, not that I've ever seen ...
22:21:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, also your client was connected, so I assume you read the away log with the highlights
22:21:34 <ehird> GregorR: Never seen? Aren't we seeing them now? :P
22:22:07 <GregorR> ehird: There are a trillion other potential problems in this setup.
22:22:10 <AnMaster> so how do I reliably get a message through that you will read next time you connect to the bouncer or look at the client or whatever?
22:22:12 <ehird> GregorR: Do not be insolent! You must not displease AnMaster.
22:22:20 <ehird> SERVE HIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT COMMUNICATION DEMANDS.
22:22:36 <AnMaster> ehird, sending a /msg to me means I will *sooner or later* read it.
22:23:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway, unicode is broken for stuff like `quote too
22:23:12 <ehird> because quote writes to the filesystem
22:23:13 <GregorR> OH, I think I know the issue then.
22:23:15 <ehird> AnMaster: addquote.
22:23:25 <GregorR> The LOG won't accept unicode, I believe.
22:23:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, okay, make that work?
22:23:46 <ehird> GregorR: but `echo bütt works.
22:23:58 <ehird> that doesn't go in log
22:24:00 <GregorR> OK, I have not a fucking clue what the problem is :P
22:24:12 <GregorR> As I can commit changes with unicode in the log here :P
22:24:22 <GregorR> Not right now, I have other sh** to do.
22:24:22 <ehird> With your magical debugging mind.
22:24:34 <ehird> You have other shasterisksasterisks?
22:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, attach gdb to everything on the system.
22:25:15 <AnMaster> ehird, quite possible with a serial cable or a firewire one
22:25:29 <ehird> then that'd become part of the system and you'd have to debug that too
22:25:32 <ehird> as well as the debugging computer
22:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you could run it in qemu and attach gdb
22:25:55 <ehird> that's the definition of a system
22:25:57 <ehird> interconnected components
22:26:06 <ehird> AnMaster: that would work if the emulation was perfect; it's not
22:26:10 <ehird> it has holes into the above system
22:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, only well guarded holes
22:26:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know about that. but that is what YOUR MOM said.
22:26:58 <ehird> GregorR: Unlike AnMaster's attempt.
22:27:09 <AnMaster> agreed. I'm not used to that sort of memes.
22:27:21 <AnMaster> all your mom are belong to dead memes
22:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, Can haz for great justice?
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23:31:35 <AnMaster> ehird, are you back yet? I have a question for you
23:33:27 <AnMaster> do you know the fingerprint HRTI for befunge 98? If not: it provides a millisecond accuracy timer (at best). However modern computers can easily manage accuracy around a few nanoseconds for timers. Yet HRTI is specified in milliseconds and can't use it.
23:34:00 <AnMaster> My question thus is: What would be a good unit if I were to add high resolution time measurement to a new fingerprint
23:34:14 <AnMaster> would nanoseconds be enough or should one future proof it by going for picoseconds or such
23:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: planck times
23:38:48 <ehird> it's befunge, why does it have to be practical?
23:39:02 <AnMaster> how much would one second be in plack times?
23:39:10 <AnMaster> would it fit in a 32-bit integer?
23:39:16 <pikhq> Or maybe petatimes; planck times are *small*.
23:39:32 <ehird> AnMaster: 1 planck time is the minimum unit of time that makes sense
23:39:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the use here is for a timeout
23:39:43 <ehird> in smaller units, physics gets all quantum and shit
23:39:46 <ehird> AnMaster: planck times dammit
23:40:09 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway one planck time is um
23:40:13 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Can you express even one millisecond in a 32-bit singed integer using planck times?
23:40:19 <ehird> 1 attosecond is 10^-18 seconds
23:40:27 <ehird> and 1 attosecond is 10^26 planck times
23:40:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:40:29 <ehird> you do the mathematic
23:40:35 <ehird> AnMaster: a millisecond is an aeon
23:40:41 <oerjan> no, _i_ do the mathematics
23:40:53 <ehird> oerjan: AnMaster is asking whether he can represent 1ms in 32-bit signed integers in planck times
23:40:56 <ehird> i'm responding "fuck no!"
23:41:09 <oerjan> `google 1 ms in planck time
23:41:11 <HackEgo> 106, 1 megasecond (11.6 days), Ms, month = 2.6 x 106 s .... [edit] External links. Exploring Time from Planck time to the lifespan of the universe ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(time) - [17]Cached - [18]Similar
23:41:20 <ehird> 23:40 ehird: 1 attosecond is 10^-18 seconds
23:41:20 <ehird> 23:40 ehird: and 1 attosecond is 10^26 planck times
23:41:28 <ehird> i don't think google will work with units that huge.
23:41:32 <ehird> (as in, 1 ms in it)
23:41:36 <HackEgo> 10. [PDF] \ [42]THE PLANCK SCALE
23:41:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, expressed in planck times, what is the largest time unit you can fit into a signed 32 bit integer. Expressed as a reasonable unit (attseconds, millseconds or whatever)
23:41:49 <ehird> Frink probably has it.
23:41:52 <ehird> Want me to use Frink?
23:41:57 <oerjan> `calc 1 ms in planck time
23:41:58 <HackEgo> 106, 1 megasecond (11.6 days), Ms, month = 2.6 x 106 s .... [edit] External links. Exploring Time from Planck time to the lifespan of the universe ...
23:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you realise how COLOSSALLY SMALL a planck time is
23:42:22 <ehird> It is the time required for light to travel, in a vacuum, a distance of 1 Planck length.[1]
23:42:23 <AnMaster> ehird, do you really *understand* that?
23:42:33 <oerjan> hmph, google doesn't have planck time as a unit, it seems
23:42:38 <ehird> 1 planck length is approximately 1.616252 x 10^-35 meters
23:43:13 <ehird> because it's too small
23:43:15 <ehird> and the resulting number is too big
23:43:22 <AnMaster> ehird, W|A can convert planck times I bet
23:43:22 <oerjan> ehird: rubbish, it's just exponential notation
23:43:44 <ehird> http://www24.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+ms+in+planck+times
23:43:55 <oerjan> `wolfram 1 ms in planck times
23:44:05 <HackEgo> 1 ms in planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 ms millisecond to Planck times \ Result: \ \ 1.855 1040 Planck times \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1000 µs microseconds \ Interpretation: \ \ time \ Corresponding quantity: \ \ Distance x traveled by light in a vacuum from x 186 miles 300 km kilometers \
23:44:06 <ehird> AnMaster: 1.8550000000000000000e+40 planck times
23:44:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, a bit outside reasonable range to express
23:44:23 <AnMaster> but that is less than a gogolplex right?
23:44:32 <ehird> yes, I wasn't quite thinking straight
23:44:36 <oerjan> it's even less than a googol
23:44:37 <ehird> AnMaster: representing 18550000000000000762995842968505615908864 is trivial with bignums btw
23:44:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but this fingerprint should work on stuff like CCBI and such too
23:44:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant expressed interest in it
23:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, however CCBI uses 32-bit signed integers
23:45:21 <ehird> push it as multiple stack elements
23:45:33 <ehird> i'm sick and tired of befunge not having enough esoteric fingerprints
23:45:42 <ehird> hmm actually planck times are rather reasonable
23:45:46 <ehird> 1 second = 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048 planck times
23:45:49 <ehird> that number's peanuts
23:45:51 <AnMaster> so what is a reasonable accuracy for timeouts? nanoseconds or picoseconds? I want to future proof it for the next 20 years or so
23:45:52 <ehird> physics sure is shaky :D
23:46:06 <ehird> AnMaster: PLANCK TIMES
23:46:15 <ehird> Fuck! Practical! Units! This! Is! Befunge!
23:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, this one has some esotericness.
23:46:27 <ehird> if it's not planck times, it's not enough
23:46:31 <AnMaster> ehird, to sync threads you use books.
23:46:36 <ehird> AnMaster: in 20 years we may have a singularity.
23:46:46 <ehird> so you need the smallest quantity you can think of
23:46:48 <ehird> → planck times!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:47:22 <ehird> two years isn't futureproofing
23:47:26 <ehird> just do planck times!
23:47:31 <ehird> it's just a few stack elements
23:47:49 <AnMaster> "1.0 nanoseconds (1.0 ns) – cycle time for frequency 1 GHz, radio wavelength 0.3 m" says wikipedia. So on a modern CPU nanoseconds would be enough, on a future one in some years, maybe you need the next step down
23:47:54 <AnMaster> but probably not more than picoseconds
23:48:02 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:48:07 <ehird> You have to go more than a step down.
23:48:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but currently we are scaling cores, not speed
23:48:23 <ehird> PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PL
23:48:26 <ehird> ANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—TIMES
23:48:36 <oerjan> <ehird> 1 second = 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048 planck times <-- something tells me the part past the first zeros isn't accurate ;D
23:48:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I WANT THIS TO BE IMPLEMENTABLE TO EXPRESS SOMETHING LIKE "2 second timeout" on an implementation with 32 bit signed integers.
23:49:07 <oerjan> and indeed, probably not more than at most one of the zeros
23:49:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Then don't fucking ask #esoteric.
23:49:15 <ehird> oerjan: accurate enough :P
23:49:41 <AnMaster> btw, expressing 10^40 in befunge would be a rather long string
23:49:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Maybe you should read the channel name again... #esoteric... as in esoteric... as in abnormal... as in you're writing a goddamn befunge fingerprint
23:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes... correct. but iirc you said you liked practical esolangs
23:50:12 <ehird> that meant something VERY different
23:50:26 <ehird> a dead esolang is not an uninteresting esolang with some libraries that happen to be fucking boring
23:50:31 <ehird> s/dead eso/practical eso/
23:50:38 <ehird> (mixing of windows...)
23:50:45 <oerjan> > logBase 2 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048
23:50:46 <ehird> a practical esolang is a language designed for real use using weird concepts
23:51:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: 161 bits is enough for a second
23:51:16 <oerjan> so, 256 should be enough for everyone *ducks*
23:51:54 <oerjan> > 2^256/1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048/86400/365.2425
23:52:19 <oerjan> number of years in 2^256 planck times
23:52:41 <AnMaster> `wolfram number of years in 2^256 planck times
23:52:49 <HackEgo> number of years in 2^256 planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 115 792 089 237 316 195 423 570 985 008 687 907 853 269 984 665 640 564 039 457 584 007 913 129 639 936 Planck times to years \ Result: \ \ 1.98 1026 years \ Additional conversion: 33 \ \ 6.243 10 seconds \ \ Comparison as age: \ \ 1.4 1016 universe
23:53:04 <AnMaster> not sure it interpreted it right
23:53:09 <oerjan> hm it doesn't seem to agree
23:53:10 <AnMaster> but if it did, yeah enough for everyone
23:53:19 <lambdabot> 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639...
23:53:47 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Real./' [infixl 7] of a section
23:53:54 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] of a section
23:54:08 <oerjan> * and / are both left associative with the same precedence
23:54:29 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Real.^' [infixr 8] of a section
23:54:41 <oerjan> ^ is higher, as expected
23:55:07 <oerjan> `wolfram 1 second in planck times
23:55:14 <HackEgo> 1 second in planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 second to Planck times \ Result: \ \ 1.855 1043 Planck times \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1000 ms milliseconds \ Interpretation: \ \ time \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Distance x traveled by light in a vacuum from x 186 282 miles 299 792 km kilometers
23:55:52 <oerjan> it doesn't agree with ehird above :)
23:56:10 <ehird> note that `wolfram is broken.
23:56:15 <ehird> it skips out formatting
23:56:17 <oerjan> > 2^256/1.855e43/86400/365.2425
23:56:23 <ehird> oerjan: 1.855 1043 = 1.855 x 10^43
23:56:31 <ehird> the lesson is: don't use `wolfram
23:56:39 <oerjan> ehird: of course i can guess that, it's still not what you pasted above
23:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, the lesson is: bug GregorR to make it handle superscript
23:57:12 <ehird> the lesson is irc is not a browser.
23:57:37 <AnMaster> the real lesson is that we will argue about what the real lesson is.
23:57:55 <oerjan> ehird: also, i was never confused about what w|a's answer meant, anyhow
23:59:07 <oerjan> anyway, that's quite a bit longer than the time since the big bang
23:59:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it larger or not then
23:59:39 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
23:59:50 <AnMaster> I think that is too large to write out
00:00:34 <AnMaster> I'd guess 2^256 is larger. Possibly
00:00:45 <oerjan> 1.157920892373162e77 < 1e100, pretty clearly
00:01:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, how many bits do you need for 1e100
00:01:19 <oerjan> but not that far, 2^512 is larger
00:01:51 <ehird> http://www.nijoruj.org/~as/2009/04/20/A-little-fun.html // wow, you can translate Haskell → SML
00:01:57 <AnMaster> why does log work for that I wonder. I remember even using that when coding
00:02:05 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the definition of log...
00:02:18 <ehird> normal log is just "how many digits do we need in base e"
00:02:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: a^(logBase a b) = b when a,b > 0
00:03:51 <AnMaster> how do you *manually* calculate log?
00:04:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: although to be fair, defining a^b for non-integer b might just as well be done by going via logarithms
00:04:41 * ehird o O ( what is up with Swedish mathematics education? )
00:04:46 * ehird . o O ( what is up with Swedish mathematics education? )
00:05:06 <ehird> AnMaster: you know roughly the same mathematics as i did when i was ~9 :S
00:05:14 <oerjan> using natural log and exp
00:05:22 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't there some study some time ago saying we were worst in EU at math education
00:05:30 <oerjan> but any other > 0 base works too
00:05:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: And you're still better than the US.
00:06:01 <pikhq> 'log' comes up alongside pre-calculus.
00:06:10 <ehird> Doesn't the US start calculus at university level?
00:06:22 <AnMaster> I know how to use log. I just don't understand why it works always.
00:06:42 <pikhq> Smarter students take it in high school.
00:06:44 <pikhq> Their senior year.
00:06:52 <AnMaster> and that is the issue, if I don't understand "why" I tend to not learn very well.
00:07:00 <pikhq> I am one of a small handful of American students to have done it *before* then.
00:07:07 <ehird> i actually didn't know any calculus until recently, but getting what "what" took me about 5 minutes
00:07:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: there's a taylor series for natural log, is one way (but it converges only in a small interval iirc)
00:07:17 <ehird> it's rather trivial if you know what a function is...
00:07:25 <pikhq> ehird: And you're 14.
00:07:41 <oerjan> but i think computers use more clever methods
00:07:58 <AnMaster> I do know some calculus. I can do integration and such.
00:08:09 <pikhq> ehird: That puts you in the 99.99999999th percentile in the US.
00:08:29 <oerjan> and you can do it _less_ cleverly too, in a way that's easy to do for integer base logs
00:08:34 <ehird> Incidentally, I'm useless at mental arithmetic. And I mean useless.
00:08:45 <ehird> If you ask me to multiply two non-trivial numbers, I'll sit gawping for hours.
00:08:51 <ehird> And I have no ida why.
00:09:01 <ehird> It's always confused me.
00:09:11 <pikhq> US students are increasingly useless at pen-and-paper arithmetic.
00:09:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't a taylor series a polynomial approximation or something iirc?
00:09:21 <AnMaster> and I didn't read that in school...
00:09:24 <pikhq> The prevailing philosophy is that a calculator suffices.
00:09:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's a limit of polynomial approximations
00:09:39 <ehird> pikhq: I guess Idiocracy wasn't fiction.
00:09:56 <pikhq> ehird: No, we're not quite that bad yet.
00:10:06 <pikhq> However, it's trivial extrapolation.
00:10:06 <ehird> It isn't set in the present day.
00:10:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> Incidentally, I'm useless at mental arithmetic. And I mean useless. <-- same here
00:10:13 <oerjan> lessee, you get it by integrating the series for 1/(1+x) = 1 - x + x^2 - x^3 + ... iirc
00:10:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I can do it on paper though
00:10:32 <AnMaster> though division on paper is a pain
00:10:45 <oerjan> giving log (1+x) = x - x^2/2 + x^3/3 - x^4/4 + ...
00:10:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:11:02 <ehird> this ambient mix is wonderful.
00:11:13 <oerjan> works for -1 < x < 1, i think
00:11:28 <ehird> oerjan: that's not the most useful range :-D
00:11:32 <oerjan> but converges slower near the edges
00:11:57 <oerjan> ehird: you can always rescale...
00:12:23 <oerjan> ehird: also, that gives you logs from (0, 2)
00:12:38 <ehird> A VERY SCARY THING BUT NOT FOR THE REASON YOU THINK:
00:12:43 <oerjan> so just do log (1/x) = - log x for the rest
00:12:44 <ehird> "The average IQ just dropped!"
00:12:58 <AnMaster> ehird, in what collection of people?
00:13:26 <oerjan> ehird: since average IQ is recalibrated to 100 regularly afaik...
00:13:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, in here, or worldwide?
00:13:32 <pikhq> ehird: Context is needed to tell whether or not that is dumbtarded.
00:13:32 <ehird> oerjan: THAT'S THE JOKE
00:13:39 <ehird> The average IQ is defined as 100.
00:13:46 <ehird> pikhq: Well, I've heard it before; but I made this one up for A JOKE.
00:13:49 <pikhq> For the full human population.
00:14:16 <AnMaster> this makes comparing absolute IQ over time harder
00:14:39 <ehird> IQ is entirely based on average=100.
00:14:57 <pikhq> average=100, and the other scores are a bell curve.
00:15:13 <AnMaster> like "am I smarter than Einstein was" (assuming his IQ is known), that is hard if it has since been recalibrated.
00:15:28 <ehird> IQ is a relative score, AnMaster.
00:15:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. but what is the absolute measure if you need that?
00:16:01 <ehird> erm… let me get this straight
00:16:08 <ehird> you want an absolute measure of IQ for times 0→infinity
00:16:27 <ehird> and you would like to ignore that this isn't even a meaningful score?
00:16:35 <AnMaster> ehird, ... I just wonder how you compare intelligence over time
00:16:47 <AnMaster> say, present day and 100 years in the future
00:17:06 <ehird> genius is relative
00:17:07 <AnMaster> ehird, right, but where can one find the needed info for that
00:17:10 <ehird> also, IQ != genius
00:17:19 <ehird> IQ is just pattern matching ability.
00:17:37 <ehird> AnMaster: depends on how it's most recently been recalibrated.
00:17:39 <AnMaster> ehird, two people having high IQ in two different periods of time.
00:17:55 <AnMaster> seeing which of them had highest IQ
00:18:15 <pikhq> Note that IQ has only a loose association with intelligence.
00:18:29 <ehird> It would be nice if people stopped using it.
00:18:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, fix superscripts in `wolfram please?
00:18:49 <pikhq> (we can say that someone with an IQ of 150 is likely more intelligent than someone with an IQ of 60. ... Yeah, that's about as much information as you get.)
00:20:49 <AnMaster> hm... who was it that wrote "The IQ of the mob is equal to the IQ of the member of the mob with the lowest IQ divided by the number of members in the mob"?
00:23:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
00:24:24 <oerjan> so someone obviously has compared IQ tests over time
00:25:29 <AnMaster> "The revised versions are standardized on new samples and scored with respect to those samples alone, so the only way to compare the difficulty of two versions of a test is to conduct a separate study in which the same subjects take both versions.[2] Doing so confirms IQ gains over time."
00:28:15 <Sgeo> "Enforced consistent convention: Two pieces of code that are syntax-identical must be character-identical also, and this must be enforced, not simply convention."
00:28:38 <Sgeo> Is that even possible? Does that even make sense?
00:28:44 <Sgeo> Hm, I'm sure it's possible
00:28:54 <Sgeo> But seems to me that it would lead to insanity
00:29:02 <ehird> Sgeo: Brainfuck minus comments?
00:29:07 <AnMaster> Sgeo, whereis that quote from?
00:29:08 <ehird> ,[.,] is the only way to represent that AST.
00:29:11 <ehird> Also, what AnMaster said.
00:29:14 <Sgeo> http://www.warrenfalk.com/blog/programming-language-reinvention/
00:29:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> Also, what AnMaster said. <-- first time you said that iirc
00:29:47 <ehird> Sgeo: wow, this language sucks
00:30:14 <ehird> No ability to customize compiler operation
00:30:14 <ehird> There is no way to customize the compilation process with your own code. I would like it if a compiler (and probably IDE also) would recognize certain attributes as being custom implementations of compiler functions or precompilers. In fact things like field-wrapping could actually be accomplished this way.
00:30:44 <AnMaster> that link seems to be major wtf
00:30:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: i assume it means only spacing and indentation stuff, not actual variable/function naming...
00:31:00 <ehird> AnMaster: this is why you don't let "practical" programmers design things.
00:31:12 <Sgeo> What I quoted is the only wtf I see
00:31:21 <Sgeo> But then again, I'm no language designer
00:31:21 <ehird> Sgeo: your mind has melted away.
00:31:27 <ehird> it's all suck, suck and more suck
00:31:54 <ehird> maybe they call 'em code monkeys because they monkey up code
00:32:08 <ehird> "readers are plentiful, thinkers are rare" ← and you're not one of them
00:33:26 <AnMaster> "Besides just being a syntactic shortcut, a with construct is also an optimization as it doesn’t require loading the same reference on the stack for every member call."
00:33:37 <ehird> AnMaster: he's thinking extremely low-level
00:34:01 <AnMaster> ehird, he is talking about C#. You can't do that sort of stuff that would mess up that optimisation in C#
00:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: here, he thinks we have to load the 'foo' reference on the stack twice
00:34:12 <ehird> AnMaster: these people hate sufficiently smart compilers
00:34:18 <ehird> optimization is brittle, they sez.
00:34:32 <ehird> "we must tell the compiler what we mean" is stupid, they sez. we must instead tell it exactly how to do it, they sex.
00:34:44 <AnMaster> ehird, this would be true for C *if and only if* the variable was volatile. Even a C compiler would otherwise optimise it.
00:34:57 <Sgeo> So, answering this guy's questions about nomic is not a good idea?
00:35:02 <ehird> AnMaster: BUT WE CAN'T RELY ON THAAAAAAAAAT
00:35:08 <ehird> Sgeo: Waste your time if you want
00:35:13 <AnMaster> ehird, right. You can use -O0 if you want
00:37:14 <AnMaster> "I propose that the anonymous delegate ability be kept, and that you also be able to simply pass a function name as a parameter where a delegate is required and the compiler will take care of emitting the “new” construct." <-- that is actually semi-sane. He is suggesting functional programming there.
00:38:05 <ehird> it's a totally insane form
00:39:17 <AnMaster> "Cannot return a reference to a field declaration [...] The reason the above can’t be done is because you cannot return the structure as a reference. I see no reason to be unable to do this however, except that returning references to variables would break if you tried to pass back a reference to a local variable, or some other variable in unmanaged storage. But this could be done if the compiler
00:39:17 <AnMaster> simply forbade the illegal usage." <-- err. To begin with: structs in .NET/mono are immutable and copy-on-write as far as I remember.
00:39:33 <AnMaster> which is why you can't much around with references to them
00:41:06 <Sgeo> If I comment on a blog entry, will this guy be emailed?
00:41:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ok one good point: "Unable to specify different implementations in generics based on whether the type is a reference type vs. a value type." <-- it seems to me, that this shouldn't matter for a programmer.
00:41:49 <AnMaster> the language should provide the same inference, I as a user of the language shouldn't need to care
00:41:58 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:43:39 <AnMaster> "My proposition is to cordon off a set of characters that can be used in operators (e.g. & | + – * . ~ $ % ^ / ? = > < !) and set up the lexer to recognize any group of these characters as an operator." <-- I hate operator overloading already
00:44:17 <AnMaster> allowing users to invent new ones won't help
00:44:37 <ehird> Operator overloading is only bad if you abuse it stupdily and make things overloadable operators that aren't.
00:44:43 <ehird> Also, Haskell has "invented" operators.
00:44:53 <ehird> Moreover, your commentary is not particularly interesting.
00:45:02 <AnMaster> ehird, there will always be someone who abuse it
00:45:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Your thinking leads to Java.
00:45:33 <ehird> Please remove the toxic waste from your brain or cease such poisonous thinking activities at your nearest convenience.
00:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, there will always be someone to abuse the programmer as well
00:45:52 <AnMaster> so I agree with you here ehird. Partly
00:45:53 <ehird> If you require assistance with the latter, please see your local government-sponsored euthanasia booth.
00:45:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Haskell does it RIGHT.
00:46:04 <Sgeo> How many applets are written in Jython?
00:46:07 <ehird> You can't make "foo" + "globbin" mean 42.
00:46:20 <ehird> You can define a new (+) for a new type that takes two of that type and gives a new one.
00:46:27 <ehird> You also have to make a full Num instance.
00:46:32 <ehird> That means implementing every base numeric method.
00:46:36 <AnMaster> "Note: This may seem strange at first for delegates which have such a concise definition, but there’s no great loss in making every delegate its own tiny file. Any clumsiness this may seem to cause should be overcome in the IDE." <-- blink. Blink.
00:46:38 <ehird> And you're expected to follow the laws.
00:46:45 <ehird> So (+) is addition, not just a meaningless operator.
00:46:48 <ehird> But it's also overloadable.
00:46:58 <ehird> Sgeo: haven't seen any in the wild
00:47:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, that's the mindset of C#/Javaheads
00:47:40 <Sgeo> ....now that, I see the stupidity in quite clearly
00:47:51 <AnMaster> actually it is good for one thing
00:47:57 <Sgeo> Forcing an IDE on the programmer to maintain the programmer's sanity? WTF?
00:47:58 <AnMaster> it allows compiler to find stuff easily
00:48:09 <ehird> Sgeo: that's exactly what java coders do
00:48:28 <AnMaster> just saying that is a possible way to explain it away
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00:48:51 <AnMaster> "With curly braces and semicolons, it is possible to construct a C# program on one single line. This would appear to be the most worthless feature of the language. Its pros are nil and its cons are: 1) it allows every programmer to invent his own convention for formatting which, as it turns out, is more unique than a fingerprint, and 2) it simply requires extra typing (and with curly braces, require
00:48:51 <AnMaster> s the combination of fairly obscure keys and a shift modifier)."
00:48:57 <Sgeo> Although I guess DM..
00:48:58 <AnMaster> he is about to invent python too
00:49:17 <Sgeo> He mentions Python in the page
00:49:41 * Sgeo wonders how much of a WTF this channel would find DM to be
00:49:50 <coppro> but seriously, formatting needs to be liquid. There is no good "one size fits all" formatting style
00:49:59 <Sgeo> http://www.warrenfalk.com/blog/programming-language-reinvention/ (not DM)
00:50:17 <Sgeo> DM = Dream Maker, the language used by BYOND games
00:51:14 <Sgeo> http://www.byond.com/docs/guide/ and http://www.byond.com/docs/ref/
00:51:34 * coppro thought DM was DangerMouse
00:51:38 <ehird> I thought he disappeared.
00:51:52 <Sgeo> ehird, JRChat being dead doesn't mean he disappeared
00:51:57 <ehird> I heard he disappeared.
00:52:03 <ehird> Off the interwebs.
00:52:32 <Sgeo> JRChat == Creatures fan chat
00:52:44 <AnMaster> * coppro thought DM was DangerMouse <-- that is DMM iirc?
00:52:54 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/JRChat
00:53:07 <ehird> Lummox JR was some Creatures community douchebag :-P
00:53:22 <coppro> AnMaster: given that dangermouse.net is "DM's Home Page", I'd say no
00:53:22 <ehird> Who thought that desktop linux users were just doing it to be different because obviously windows is so much better.
00:53:26 <ehird> Least that's what Dylan tells me.
00:54:08 <AnMaster> DM = DMM = David Morgan-Mar though
00:54:47 <Sgeo> Can we get to the WTFs about BYOND, and not the WTFs about LJR?
00:56:06 <AnMaster> Sgeo, a bit like python when it comes to indention? Seems rather well structured?
00:57:01 <ehird> yeah it looks fine
00:57:26 * Sgeo doesn't know why he assumed it would be WTFy
00:57:35 <Sgeo> I used it, but a very long time ago
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00:57:43 <AnMaster> it supports braces too it seems
00:57:51 <AnMaster> http://www.byond.com/docs/guide/chap02.html
00:58:12 <coppro> the only real wtf there is that he proposes getting rid of the ternary operator "only if a way to avoid the code duplication of not using it can be developed"
00:58:33 <AnMaster> coppro, there are lots of other ones
00:58:38 <coppro> but that's the big one
00:58:43 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "Note: This may seem strange at first for delegates which have such a concise definition, but there’s no great loss in making every delegate its own tiny file. Any clumsiness this may seem to cause should be overcome in the IDE." <-- blink. Blink.
00:58:49 <AnMaster> coppro, I think that is the big one
00:59:03 <ehird> Enforced consistent convention: Two pieces of code that are syntax-identical must be character-identical also, and this must be enforced, not simply convention.
00:59:06 <ehird> you have to think about that
00:59:09 <ehird> one AST ←→ one string
00:59:18 <ehird> this guy clearly knows nothing about languages
01:00:45 <coppro> actually, found another one
01:00:46 <AnMaster> coppro, in a .NET/C# context references to struct members is also very wtf
01:00:58 <coppro> I don't know about that enough to comment
01:01:04 <AnMaster> coppro, this is harder to spot, but I used to code in .NET/mono a long time agop
01:01:07 <coppro> "# Note: For case-mangling operating systems, such as Windows 95/98/Me, this simply won’t work, but I’m favoring sacrificing compilability on these platforms."
01:01:35 <AnMaster> comex, the issue is structs are copy-on-write, so references to them would change existing ones. Which would be madness
01:01:38 <Warrigal> GregorR: hey, the stamp-licking was only to get your attention so that you would notice my suggestion.
01:01:51 * ehird licks Warrigal's stamps,
01:02:00 <ehird> I don't know what that implies
01:02:23 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you escaping the ,
01:02:52 * coppro wants a language with first-class types
01:03:12 <coppro> of course it's been done
01:03:17 <ehird> coppro: dependent types, yeah
01:03:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it's way more than one language
01:03:32 <ehird> coppro: it's haskell + dependent types + other stuff + a bit of suck
01:03:36 <ehird> also you have to use emacs
01:03:40 <ehird> and syntax highlighting happens in batch
01:03:42 <ehird> but it's kinda fun
01:03:52 <ehird> it's a good language
01:04:00 <ehird> AnMaster: "not using is highly painful and involves huge command lines"
01:04:05 <ehird> its development style is highly integrated
01:04:10 <ehird> and involves a lot of not-quite-code
01:04:31 <AnMaster> "<ehird> and syntax highlighting happens in batch <-- I have seen that before. A bit irritating but nothing you can't live with
01:04:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i mean, you have to press a key to highlight syntax, and the code has to be valid
01:04:59 <ehird> (you can use holes, though, to represent uncompleted code)
01:05:08 <ehird> (and I'm not sure holes are part of the language vs the emacs mode)
01:05:16 <ehird> (it's essentially an emacs mode, really)
01:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, oh like the old apple script editor
01:05:57 <ehird> nope still like that
01:06:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ah... why didn't they replace it with xcode or something
01:06:41 <AnMaster> you are doing an implicit one right now
01:06:41 <ehird> AnMaster: it's for simple stuff
01:06:43 <ehird> xcode is a full IDE
01:07:02 <ehird> Warrigal: i'd demand you logically justify that like you do me but i'm not enough of a dick.
01:07:13 <AnMaster> Warrigal, either 1) PRIVMSG #esoteric :But /msg scares me. 2) PRIVMSG GregorR :But /msg scares me.
01:07:24 <AnMaster> that is what your client would send
01:07:43 <Warrigal> I suffered a near-fatal glutamic acid overdose when I was a child and still--I mean, it seems excessive; it tends to annoy me when people send me /msgs.
01:07:54 <Warrigal> So when you told me to use /msg, you were telling me to send a PRIVMSG, which is what I did?
01:08:09 <AnMaster> Warrigal, send a private one directed at Gracenotes
01:08:28 <Warrigal> Directed private messages scare me, is what I meant.
01:08:37 <ehird> Warrigal: It annoys me when people use public channels as private messages.
01:08:43 <ehird> Because nobody. else. cares.
01:08:52 <AnMaster> Warrigal, better than being scared by directed acyclic graphs
01:09:36 <AnMaster> I fail to see what "glutamic acid" has to do with /msg
01:09:45 <ehird> Whooooooooooooooooooosh
01:09:50 <ehird> It was Warrigal's way of dodging your question with a joke.
01:09:53 <Warrigal> MSG is a salt of glutamic acid.
01:10:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what would the -- mean? "no more flags, only plain arguments"?
01:10:13 <ehird> Ironically, Warrigal has been annoyed at me for not answering eir questions post-jokes.
01:10:22 <ehird> e also appears to be ignoring me.
01:10:22 <AnMaster> Warrigal, it is? ok, didn't know
01:10:42 <Sgeo> That reminds me: I love Triangle and Robert!
01:11:05 <AnMaster> Warrigal, are you ignoring ehird?
01:12:02 * AnMaster makes a note not to relay any messages by mistake
01:13:15 <AnMaster> Warrigal, anyway, care to give a serious reason for wanting to avoid private directed /msg?
01:14:05 <Warrigal> I guess what I see is people talking to each other over channels, not /msg.
01:14:21 <Warrigal> And it annoys me when people /msg me with no particular purpose in mind.
01:14:49 <AnMaster> but I assumed you *did* have a purpose
01:15:18 <Warrigal> Consciously, I recognize the difference between "I think you should change HackEgo's behavior to this" and "hi".
01:15:52 <AnMaster> Warrigal, even worse is the "who are you?" one
01:17:40 <Sgeo> Basic Instructions is back up
01:17:47 <Warrigal> "I could almost certainly answer that question better if I knew your purpose in asking it. If you're just curious, then know me as an amateur mathematician."
01:19:14 <Warrigal> Or "an amateur mathematician, linguist, and economist--as, being an amateur, I am not restricted to one field."
01:19:39 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I tend to never answer random messages
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02:24:36 <ehird> L1 - The files are on your desk.
02:24:36 <ehird> L2 - The files are in your filing cabinet.
02:24:38 <ehird> RAM - The files are in a cabinet 10 floors below you. Take the stairs.
02:24:40 <ehird> HD - The files are on the other side of the continent. Take the wheelbarrow.
02:25:07 <ehird> "So it's more like, an SSD is getting the ingredients overnighted, and the hard drive is having to breed the perfect strain of lettuce, tomatos and onions over the course of six years."
02:26:18 <Sgeo> Getting random numbers probably shouldn't involve getting files from the other side of the continent when you can make what you need right there
02:26:33 <pikhq> And the Internet for me is like sending a bunch of human babies to some random (life-sustaining) planet and waiting for them to invent the sandwich.
02:26:45 <ehird> pikhq: you could make that into a porno
02:26:52 <ehird> that doesn't even MAKE SENSE.
02:26:55 <ehird> why did I type that?
02:27:42 <oerjan> ehird: well, you _could_ make that into a porno. you might not want to, but that's a different issue.
02:27:47 <ehird> you're sort of a dok.
02:28:34 <oklodok> i know what i need to know.
02:28:39 <ehird> oklodok: quick, integrate the integration of sin(x)/glorble(x)^glio(2x)
02:28:46 <oklodok> i watched american pie - the wedding tonight
02:29:16 <ehird> how is calculus unmath
02:29:25 <oklodok> but all expressions involving the glio function integrate into the glio function.
02:29:37 <oklodok> and no, calculus is very unny math.
02:30:12 <ehird> but how is it unny math.
02:30:48 <oklodok> maybe it's because it's about numbers
02:30:53 <oklodok> and definitely because it's about real numbers
02:32:31 <oklodok> well, i do like the beginning of calculus, just not what it becomes.
02:32:41 <ehird> well mine is very beginning!
02:32:51 <ehird> SO ANSWER MY QUESTION also supply definitions of glorble(x) and glio(x)
02:33:14 <oklodok> limits, epsilons, AoC = good; integration, derivation = un.
02:33:35 <oklodok> glio is actually a special form.
02:33:59 <oklodok> and by "mine is very beginning" do you mean you're starting to learn calculus?
02:34:11 <ehird> i was just quizzing you
02:34:15 <ehird> to make sure you're still oklodok.
02:34:23 <oklodok> good, you should learn something worth learning, like, you know, knot theory.
02:35:15 <ehird> oklodok: not theory?
02:35:37 <ehird> oklodok: is yes theory theory of boolean yes///
02:36:43 <oklodok> yes; unfortunately it's isomorphic with the empty theory.
02:37:26 -!- oklodok has changed nick to oklopol.
02:38:00 <ehird> is glio(x) a manifold
02:38:17 <oklopol> i don' know much about manifolds.
02:38:38 <oklopol> maybe they have something to do with the sevenfold glio
02:38:40 <ehird> manifold == california-bar you
02:38:48 <ehird> and divide it by x
02:38:54 <ehird> to get the arctangent of the monomorphism.
02:39:03 <ehird> that forms an N-space lie algebra when you integrate it.
02:39:20 <ehird> and the limit of that(x) as x goes to -0.1iPi is the original x
02:40:22 * Sgeo sometimes feels slow when he watches the conversation in here
02:40:27 <oklopol> when a glio knows it's in danger, it flaps its wings.
02:40:53 <ehird> Sgeo: i'm actually bullshitting.
02:41:02 <ehird> but GO LEARN YOURSELF A MATHEMATICS, Sgeo.
02:41:40 <Sgeo> It feels like I knew much more than my peers in 7th grade, but stopped learning since then
02:41:50 <ehird> GO STUDY A CALCULUS IN THE FLOOR//////
02:42:04 <Sgeo> I knew calculus to some extent in 7th grade
02:42:14 <Sgeo> The new stuff we learned in Calculus BC didn't really stick that well
02:42:17 <lament> Sgeo: people become dumber with age
02:42:18 <Sgeo> (new stuff to me)
02:42:27 <ehird> lament: not before early 20s
02:42:30 <ehird> and Sgeo is early 20s.
02:42:34 <oklopol> Sgeo: the calculus you learned is not something to brag about
02:42:36 <lament> and it's possible that you simply developed mentally faster than others, so stopped developing before others have
02:43:05 <oklopol> people don't become dumber with age
02:43:05 <ehird> lament: that's bullshit
02:43:20 <ehird> oklopol: well, no it's not
02:43:33 <coppro> happens physically, why not mentally?
02:43:33 <ehird> but lament's claiming that before you turn twenty, you magically stop learning things and then become a dumbfuck in 3 years
02:43:41 <lament> ehird: what? no i don't
02:43:48 <ehird> lament: i have an invisible pink unicorn right next to me.
02:43:50 <lament> i never said any of those things
02:43:57 <ehird> lament: i was generalizing
02:44:02 <lament> you weren't generalizing
02:44:05 <coppro> ehird: can't be both invisible and pink
02:44:08 <lament> you were just talking out of your ass
02:44:15 <ehird> coppro: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
02:44:58 <Sgeo> It can be pink when visible, but temporarily invsibile. Incidentally, the contraction in the very name is why I switched to the FSM
02:45:05 <Sgeo> *contradiction
02:45:29 <ehird> you look for reasonability in your parody diety?
02:45:33 <ehird> somehow I think you have missed the point entirely.
02:45:47 <lament> ehird: you're really really bad at arguing
02:46:00 <lament> see, you derailed your own argument
02:46:03 <ehird> lament: actually i just don't bother with you :)
02:46:19 <oerjan> <lament> Sgeo: people become dumber with age <-- there was actually something against that theory on the Flynn effect wp page i linked earlier
02:46:21 <oklopol> so what does it mean you "become dumber with age"? i might have a different definition.
02:47:15 <Sgeo> ehird, there is no contradiction in "God". Maybe in the concept of God, but the name "God" itself has no contradiction. Why should a parody deity have a contradiction in its very name?
02:47:30 <oklopol> i do believe most people stop learning after their schooling. also i guess certain forms of wit do get slower.
02:47:31 <lament> oklopol: you perform poorer at tasks requiring ability to learn, concentration, ability to find and recognize patterns, etc
02:47:32 <ehird> Sgeo: the whole point of the parody deities is to make light of the ridiculousness of god
02:47:40 <ehird> so looking for reasonability in one is silly
02:48:11 <Sgeo> But it has a flaw that regular religion doesn't -- a contradiction in the name
02:48:16 <oerjan> lament: basically, it said that some earlier research that showed older people were more stupid was flawed because it was actually because of the Flynn Effect that people _born later_ were smarter :)
02:48:58 <lament> oerjan: just imagine those imbeciles a thousand years ago or so
02:49:00 <ehird> there's no denying that our brain decays, though
02:49:20 * Sgeo doesn't want his brain to decay :(
02:49:33 <oerjan> lament: yeah it recommended not extrapolating too far, it said Aristotle would have had an IQ of -1000 nowadays or so
02:49:37 <lament> Sgeo: don't worry, the rest of your body will decay at a similar rate
02:49:45 <ehird> Sgeo: get your entire set of neurons scanned within a few years time
02:49:47 <ehird> lament: that's not comforting.
02:49:50 <oklopol> lament: in my experience older people are better than young people in learning and concentration; maybe their brains are stupider, but they are more consistent.
02:49:53 <oerjan> (if it extrapolated that far)
02:50:00 <ehird> Sgeo: then, pick a theory of consciousness that works with reviving it and forget about it.
02:50:05 <oklopol> but, i don't actually know, i just refuse to believe something that depressing.
02:50:29 * Sgeo doesn't want to believe that death is the final end either..
02:50:36 <oklopol> i mean they don't get bored as easily, i guess.
02:50:40 <Sgeo> But what I wish has no effect on reality
02:50:45 <lament> oklopol: definitely worse at learning, which is why people go to school and such when they're young
02:50:48 <oklopol> young people never stick to anything
02:51:02 <lament> oklopol: otherwise, if you wanted to become a scientist or something, you would go to college at 60 and produce your best results at 80 or something
02:51:03 <ehird> if you're truly terrified about dying, either (a) work out your mental health problems or (b) work on life extension
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02:53:16 <oklopol> lament: i don't care about your ugly facts
02:53:36 <oerjan> lament: it may not be common, but _some_ mathematicians started late, i've seen riemann mentioned
02:55:10 <oklopol> i'm sure people just stop learning, and lose the skill.
02:56:50 <oerjan> oh wait maybe it was gauss
02:57:00 <ehird> "gauss was a child prodigy"
03:01:48 <oklopol> yeah there was that story about him coming up with a nontrivial way to sum up 1..100
03:02:05 <oklopol> god i lolled at that when i was as old as he was when he came up with it
03:03:19 <ehird> oklopol: wait how do you make summing 1..100 hard
03:03:40 <ehird> even if i was like 6 years old i could do that in a very manual way in like 5 minutes
03:03:43 <oklopol> because most 12-yo or whatever retards do it in ascending order.
03:04:02 <ehird> did you specifically try and target that age at me? :D
03:04:28 <oklopol> no gauss was 10 or 12 or something, that's a story that's supposed to tell about his genius.
03:04:49 <ehird> oklopol: so this is the shitty kind of genius amirite
03:04:57 <oklopol> he came up with summing from both ends at once
03:05:09 <oklopol> well he probably was a child prodigy.
03:05:19 <oklopol> i'm just saying that's an annoying story
03:05:45 <oklopol> also it's the only thing i know about gauss, so i told it.
03:05:56 <oklopol> well i guess i do know stuff about his results
03:06:20 <oklopol> he died in a duel at the age of 20 i think
03:06:40 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
03:07:04 <oerjan> he got 78 years old :D
03:07:33 <oklopol> and no i think he did not.
03:07:38 * oerjan _assumes_ oklopol confused him with galois
03:08:20 <oklopol> hmm right, i just remember fields, G and a duel..
03:09:10 <ehird> yeah wtf @ galois dying
03:09:59 * oerjan regularly uses a glass and a piece of paper to evict insects with
03:10:30 <ehird> in this household we just use paper
03:11:25 <ehird> WHICH IS LIKE 21 IN REAL PEOPLE YEARS?
03:11:26 <oklopol> then my memory is right, and the whatever page is wrong
03:11:35 <ehird> maybe you're DELUDEY
03:11:40 <oerjan> oklopol: need to consider date you know
03:11:47 <Sgeo> oklopol, I think the story was that he found an easy way to add the numbers 1-100, which was given in class as a busywork assignment
03:12:05 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm familiar with how age works
03:12:14 <ehird> Sgeo: but that's... trivial...
03:12:17 <oklopol> French mathematician who described the conditions for solving polynomial equations; was killed in a duel at the age of 21
03:12:51 <ehird> the sum of 1..n is just 1/2 n (1+n)
03:13:00 <ehird> although okay galois probably didn't know that
03:13:10 <Sgeo> Trivial for you and I.. well, for you at least. I'm not much of a problem-solver. Now that I know how it works, I understand it, but if I never heard of it, I probably wouldn't think of it
03:13:24 <ehird> well tbh i figured out that pattern ages ago but forgot it now
03:13:26 <ehird> and just asked mathematica
03:13:49 <oklopol> Sgeo: anyone who's toyed with math would figure that out in an instant, without knowing the formula.
03:13:52 <ehird> n (1+n)/2 is shorter though.
03:14:13 <ehird> it is kinda obvious if you just think for a second
03:14:49 <Sgeo> I think that this channel just may have a warped definition of "obvious"
03:14:55 <oklopol> Sgeo: and any 12-yo who's toyed with math would figure out the special case of 1..100
03:15:13 <oerjan> @check \n -> n >= 0 ==> sum [1..n] == (n*(n+1))`div`2
03:15:14 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `==>'Precedence parsing error
03:15:18 <ehird> Sgeo: well we're not dumb? :P
03:15:20 <oklopol> Sgeo: i have a very warped definition of everything
03:15:31 <ehird> In[1]:= Sum[i, {i, 1, n}]
03:15:32 <ehird> Out[1]= 1/2 n (1 + n)
03:15:34 <ehird> DO NOT DOUBT THE MATHEMATICA
03:15:59 <ehird> @check \n -> (n < 0) || (sum [1..n] == (n*(n+1)) `div` 2)
03:16:18 <oerjan> IT SPRINGS DIRECTLY FROM THE DIVINE INTELLIGENCE OF WOLFRAM
03:17:16 <ehird> oklopol: it's so obvious that oerjan had to ask \bot :D
03:17:34 <ehird> n (1 + n) can surely be simplified
03:17:56 <ehird> hmm not that i can think of
03:18:00 <oklopol> maybe, why not ask mathematica.
03:18:16 <ehird> it's just ((n*(1+n))/2) is sort of, you know
03:18:45 <oerjan> n^2+n isn't _that_ much of an improvement
03:18:52 <oklopol> nowadays i'm more about pure ideas.
03:19:23 <ehird> oerjan: anyway i'm thinking something that only mentions n once
03:19:51 <ehird> oerjan: we can exploit the 1/2
03:20:57 <oerjan> but that's essentially cheating, n over 2 is just the triangular numbers anyhow
03:21:15 <Sgeo> What happened after lambdabot said "Ok, passed 500 tests."?
03:21:39 <ehird> oerjan: i guess n (1+n) / 2 wins the summation contest for now
03:22:21 <oerjan> x+y = n+1, x-y = n ==> x=n+1/2, y = 1/2
03:22:51 <oerjan> n(n+1)/2 = (n+1/2)^2/2 - 1/8
03:23:30 <oerjan> it _does_ only have one n :)
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03:30:39 <oklopol> maybe i should do something
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12:09:17 <ogliopol> i wish there was some way to see your own nick in mirc
12:09:35 -!- ogliopol has changed nick to oklokok.
12:15:34 <oklokok> i heard a finnish woman mispronounce strange on the radio yesterday
12:16:34 <AnMaster> oklokok, there is no way to see your own nick? How strange
12:16:57 <AnMaster> considering client has to know for stuff like setting umodes
12:17:28 <AnMaster> idea: try (with no parameters): /nick
12:17:36 <oklokok> * /nick: insufficient parameters (line 190, minirc.nns)
12:17:48 <oklokok> seems logical, yes, i've tried it
12:18:26 <AnMaster> in xchat it is right beside the input bar
12:19:28 <oklokok> i think i'm supposed to rely on "14:09… Your nick is now oklokok", which is stupid
12:19:45 <oklokok> because it's just the server's msg
12:20:16 <Deewiant> 14:09:35 --> ogliopol is now known as oklokok
12:20:24 <Deewiant> Just log in twice and the other will always see it
12:21:33 <AnMaster> oklokok, what about the channel member list?
12:22:22 <oklokok> also i can join #random09832943 and say hello this is test messages
12:22:46 <oklokok> Deewiant: i see; still kinda stupid
12:23:26 <oklokok> yes, it's somewhat stupid :)
12:24:45 <AnMaster> -Deewiant- VERSION Deewiantbot version NaN <-- nice
12:25:06 <oklokok> if i knew a better alternative, i'd use it; and yeah, i know irssi is supposed to be that
12:25:28 <oklokok> yes, it was horrible, don't remember why
12:25:36 <oklokok> there was some horrible flaw
12:25:45 <AnMaster> oklokok, maybe it improved since?
12:26:09 <AnMaster> use the silverex version. the other windows version costs money iirc
12:26:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Success).
12:26:30 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
12:26:51 <oklopol> i've been offline since like 5 am
12:27:04 <oklopol> and now that i'm back, i died
12:27:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, if you used nickserv you could easily ghost it
12:28:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, not really. register, set up client to autoidentify to account.
12:28:26 <oklopol> please elaborate on the latter part, that is, give me the code
12:29:02 <AnMaster> for erc and xchat you just enter some "on connect line"
12:29:20 <AnMaster> so it sends that line every time directly after connecting
12:29:40 <AnMaster> which would be something like: ns identify oklopol mysecretpassword
12:29:40 <oklopol> mirc has that for quakenet; i don't know how to do it for normal networks
12:29:58 <oklopol> well still, i don't know where to put that
12:29:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, sending that line to the server that is
12:30:10 <AnMaster> iirc you nowdays have to provide an email when registering
12:30:42 <oklopol> i have registered, the O(1) operations usually aren't too much work
12:31:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, not sure if you have to give it / first in front of that "ns identify"
12:32:10 <AnMaster> in the on-connect line thingy you can't give the / to xchat at least. nor to erc iirc
12:33:16 <oklopol> i think those are equal in mirc
12:46:31 <Asztal> I thought /ns -> /msg nickserv was a server-specific thing
12:48:09 * oerjan just gives it as server password in irssi anyhow
12:48:28 <Deewiant> Maybe it needs to be sent in a special way, just plain typing it doesn't work anyway
12:49:12 -!- ehird has left (?).
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12:51:21 <ehird> you discovered my flight technique
12:53:59 <oklopol> is that your way of saying hay i'm hare
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13:00:40 <ehird> 04:22:22 <oklokok> also i can join #random09832943 and say hello this is test messages
13:00:51 <ehird> or //msg oklodo… wait
13:00:57 <ehird> okay i actually thought that would work for a second.
13:01:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
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13:02:38 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> /ns? Not /msg NickServ? <-- server side alias as well as often client side
13:03:24 <AnMaster> technically using /ns or /nickserv is "more secure" on many ircds, since only a real ulined server can receive those messages. Not sure if this is true for hyperion.
13:03:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, irssi doesn't accept unknown commands
13:04:55 <AnMaster> ehird, you can do that after you found your nick, in order to confirm it
13:05:05 <Deewiant> Yeah, I figured, I just couldn't bother to look up the raw-send command
13:05:11 <ehird> um thanks for highlighting me AnMaster
13:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, does it bother you that I highlighted you?
13:05:34 <ehird> you replied to my line directly
13:05:38 <ehird> i read it as part of the previous lines
13:05:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I did reply to what you said
13:05:45 <ehird> because i'm tired and couldn't pick out that that interpretation was stupid
13:07:12 <ehird> guess what time i slept last night!
13:07:23 <AnMaster> ehird, later than I went to bed?
13:07:54 <ehird> i think i managed to get to sleep around 6 am local time.
13:08:00 <ehird> i have a very dysfunctional relation with my body.
13:08:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ATHR is under progress btw. Many parts work
13:08:08 <AnMaster> TEST: Will test C with a single thread.
13:08:08 <AnMaster> GOOD: Using C on a value from the intital source of the program worked.
13:08:08 <AnMaster> GOOD: Value actually exchanged according G.
13:08:08 <AnMaster> GOOD: Failed C returned correct previous value.
13:08:08 <AnMaster> GOOD: Failed C didn't changed value.
13:08:09 <AnMaster> TEST: Will test C with two threads.
13:08:14 <ehird> we act happy in public though.
13:10:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, current tests so far: http://pastebin.ca/1494613
13:16:58 * AnMaster notes he need to implement HRTI to be able to provide reasonable timing for the ATHR test cases
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13:22:56 <AnMaster> "M 'Mark' designates the timer as having been read by the IP with this ID at this instance in time. "
13:23:04 <AnMaster> why does it specifically mention the IP ID?
13:26:57 <Deewiant> It clarifies something for TRDS.
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13:30:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what happens in CCBI if more ips are created and destroyed than 2^32?
13:31:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what if one of those still exist, say, the second. will more than one IP with the same id exist then?
13:31:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, in TRDS multiple IPs with the same ID can coexist, so that means the timers are per-ID and not per-IP.
13:31:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You'll run out of memory before that.
13:32:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not if you keep killing ips somewhere in the middle
13:32:14 <AnMaster> or do you end up reusing them right away?
13:32:48 <AnMaster> I believe cfunge will possibly collide two ids
13:32:57 <AnMaster> but then I will just say "use the 64 bit version"
13:33:01 <Deewiant> I think CCBI just does a blind increment
13:34:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ATHR thread ids must never collide, it is up to the implementation to ensure this and make S reverse if there is no free one left.
13:35:25 <AnMaster> luckily I won't run into that problem in efunge, what with it being bignum + blind increment
13:35:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw, how do you feel about expressing timeouts in planck times? It would mean a 32 bit funge can't handle it.
13:36:42 <ehird> just push multiple values on the stack
13:36:44 <AnMaster> personally I think I'll go for expressing timeouts in picoseconds.
13:36:53 <Deewiant> Or push a pointer to a bignum, or whatever.
13:36:59 <ehird> so do remind me guys
13:37:03 <ehird> how is befunge meant to be esoteric?
13:37:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, x/y/length, could work
13:37:08 <ehird> i'm not quite seeing it beyond a little core.
13:37:08 <Deewiant> Just say it is an opaque object.
13:37:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, except it is supposed to be user specifiable
13:37:29 <Deewiant> Code that looks like line noise is esoteric.
13:37:38 <AnMaster> a reasonable timeout for waiting for signal
13:37:49 <Asztal> has anyone implemented a kleinefunge or a hexfunge? (different topologies)
13:37:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Make a converter from Funge-cell to number.
13:38:06 <Deewiant> I guess it'd be best to just rely on a BIGN fingerprint...
13:38:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, personally I would just rather go for "one cell containing"
13:39:01 <Deewiant> If you just read a normal Funge cell, then you limit yourself to the interpreter's word size
13:39:08 <ehird> kleinfunge would just be torusfunge wouldn't it
13:39:11 <ehird> from the perspective of the program
13:39:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true. but so does HRTI already
13:39:21 <Deewiant> If you also allow reading from a string etc, you might as well make a whole bignum fingerprint
13:39:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The problem will be somewhat bigger even with picoseconds let alone Planck times.
13:40:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will it be a problem with picoseconds already?
13:40:30 <AnMaster> `wolfram 1 second in picoseconds
13:40:37 <HackEgo> 1 second in picoseconds \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 second to picoseconds \ Result: \ \ 1 1012 ps picoseconds \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1000 ms milliseconds \ Interpretation: \ \ time \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Distance x traveled by light in a vacuum from x 186 282 miles 299 792 km kilometers \
13:40:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?q=(2^31-1)+picoseconds+to+seconds
13:41:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=(2^63-1)+picoseconds+to+seconds
13:41:20 <Deewiant> 64-bit can go up to 3 months, but 32-bit can't even do 3 milliseconds.
13:41:43 <Deewiant> I think that's a bit harsh on 32-bit people. :-P
13:41:53 <AnMaster> with nanoseconds you can do 2 seconds
13:42:34 <AnMaster> the time processing the value shouldn't take longer than the timeout!
13:42:51 <AnMaster> which it will likely using some pointer to string or similar
13:43:01 <Asztal> split it into two seconds and nanoseconds arguments?
13:43:13 <Deewiant> For picoseconds, popping the value from the stack will likely take more than one.
13:43:17 <AnMaster> seconds and picoseconds you could do
13:43:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true. on current hardware
13:43:47 <Deewiant> (See http://imgur.com/X1Hi1.gif)
13:43:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same for nanoseconds I guess. Again on current hardware
13:44:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about register files?
13:44:26 <Deewiant> If it's in L1 it might take less than one.
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13:53:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in the future it might be faster. Which was why I considered using picoseconds for the timeout
13:53:51 <AnMaster> ((2^31) - 1) * microseconds = 2 147.48365 seconds <-- ok HRTI has problems over a range of a few minutes
13:54:56 <ehird> you've been deciding this one stupid thing for days
13:55:06 <ehird> are you really so incompetent that it takes you a day to decide a timescale?
13:55:09 <AnMaster> ehird, um, since yesterday evening
13:55:21 <ehird> way to miss the point entirely
13:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to get it right from the beginning. And planck time is Not Right here :P
13:56:06 * ehird moves AnMaster out of the way of society, to #bikeshedding-asylum
13:56:15 <AnMaster> anyway seconds, nanoseconds and picoseconds sounds good
13:56:19 <Asztal> yes, get it right the first time, that way all the masses of befunge users don't have to put up with a quirky API... in an esolang ;)
13:56:32 <ehird> Asztal: why do you think i suggested planck time?
13:56:36 <AnMaster> Asztal, rather not put up with a CHANGING API
13:56:37 <ehird> THAT'S NOT PRACTICAL! WAAAAAAH
13:56:50 <ehird> AnMaster: OMG THEY MIGHT HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LOGS WHEN SOMEONE TELLS THEM THE API CHANGED
13:56:58 <ehird> FAILING THAT SOMEONE MIGHT HAVE TO ACTUALLY SEND AN EMAIL TO MIKE RILEY
13:57:00 <ehird> TO UPDATE HIS 3 PROGRAMS!
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13:57:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I would go for it, except that 32 bit funges would run into issues
13:57:13 <ehird> Do you KNOW how much email COSTS?
13:57:18 <AnMaster> and those are the most common ones
13:57:25 <ehird> AnMaster: because you don't know how to put multiple elements on the stack
13:57:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> anyway seconds, nanoseconds and picoseconds sounds good
13:57:48 <ehird> so planck time #1, planck time #2, planck time #3.
13:57:59 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but how many should you need?
13:58:14 <ehird> you've made that decision with seconds/nanoseconds/picoseconds too.
13:58:15 <AnMaster> since obviously a user of a bignum funge shouldn't have to bother with splitting it
13:58:26 <ehird> AnMaster: they can just do
13:58:32 <Asztal> push 0, then some numbers
13:59:16 <ehird> `wolfram ((2^(32*3))-1) planck times
13:59:23 <HackEgo> 2^ 32 3 \ \ 1 planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ 232 \ Result: \ \ 3 \ \ 1 Planck time \ \ 7.923 1028 Planck times \ Value: \ \ 176.6 E h \ Comparisons: \ \ atomic units of time \ \ 0.04 \ \ 1 23 \ 100 fs \ \ time for rhodopsin to twist 90 degrees fastest chemical reaction studied directly \ Interpretation:
13:59:57 <AnMaster> that is number of femtoseconds?
14:00:06 <ehird> 2^96 planck times = 4.271 fs
14:00:25 <ehird> wasn't like 100 bits enough for 2 minutes?
14:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so you need at least a few more to cover up to say, "a few hours"
14:01:00 <ehird> 2^168 planck times = 336,200 minutes
14:01:04 <AnMaster> 256 "for way more than the age of the universe"
14:01:42 <Asztal> how about an exponential representation? a * 2^b planck times
14:01:42 <ehird> AnMaster: 5 elements
14:01:58 <ehird> Asztal: that's not precise enough!
14:03:48 <MigoMipo> http://www.leftmind.net/random/linuxbloat.jpg
14:05:27 <AnMaster> I mean, is it logarithmic or linear?
14:05:51 <AnMaster> and is that 100 or 1000 or something else for the top
14:06:04 <ehird> you're fucking batshit insane
14:06:05 <Asztal> It would most likely say if it was logarithmic
14:06:17 <ehird> of course it's fucking linear
14:06:28 <ehird> the top is obviously the number of attendants who answered the question
14:06:41 <ehird> your two questions, surely you're trolling
14:06:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen a logarithmic bar chart once iirc
14:06:48 <ehird> YOU'RE ASKING WHETHER A BAR CHART IN A PRESENTATION IS LOGARITHMIC
14:07:04 <ehird> Especially when logarithmic would make no fucking sense at all.
14:07:06 <AnMaster> I think a teacher made it, a rather bad teacher.
14:07:26 <AnMaster> ehird, correct. I'm asking that. In my experience the world doesn't make sense.
14:07:51 <AnMaster> ehird, how many answered the question I wonder
14:08:12 <ehird> it's a goddamn joke
14:08:23 <ehird> it doesn't matter one iota and could also be completely fabricated
14:08:48 <ehird> someone please save me from this deranged man
14:09:37 <AnMaster> I hate cds with blank areas. I prefer when the top is completely covered by a label. Less risk for fingerprints and similar.
14:09:51 <sgeo> Am I more or less deranged than AnMaster
14:10:06 <sgeo> If you answer "Yes" I will hurt you (not really)
14:10:29 <ehird> you just ask stupid questions. AnMaster builds a whole deranged system of WTF around incomprehensibly stupid questions.
14:10:44 <ehird> AnMaster: you care if you can see fingerprints on your CDs...?
14:11:27 <ehird> i'm going to appeal to the swedish govt for funding to lock AnMaster in an asylum. i'm sure they'll understand...
14:11:34 <AnMaster> even if the rest of my room is far from tidy I would like at least this to be tidy.
14:11:43 <AnMaster> to counterbalance the general untidyness in here
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14:22:13 <oklopol> you won't believe the day i had
14:22:19 <ehird> did it involve moguls
14:24:01 -!- Zuu has quit (Nick collision from services.).
14:24:04 <ehird> but not of volition just violins?
14:24:05 -!- Zuu has joined.
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14:25:03 <ehird> voles are perhaps made of pure energy?
14:25:07 <ehird> that's a good theory
14:25:28 <oklopol> well theories are only as good as they get.
14:25:35 <ehird> i'm a walking theory.
14:25:52 <ehird> that of: i mind my own business while completing my tasklist for the universe.
14:25:58 <ehird> it involves entropy a lot
14:26:20 <ehird> we're stringing words together i do not think this is how you make falafel
14:26:26 <ehird> i play minesweeper
14:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so you like minesweeper too?
14:26:52 <ehird> AnMaster: only entropy minesweeper.
14:26:59 <ehird> oklopol: it's inifigant.
14:27:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the rules for it?
14:27:17 <ehird> AnMaster: you are, one, and the universe is one, and you are the universe, and the energy is flowing, you can feel it… it's right there…
14:27:49 <ehird> it…is it too late?…touch the energy…
14:27:59 <ehird> it's…my god, it's,…it's expanding…
14:28:09 <ehird> it's all…all just…just energy…everywhere…can't…imagine…amazing…it's
14:28:20 <oklopol> to live the game is not to ask what's outside the rules
14:28:24 <ehird> You Got 99 Points !
14:28:29 <ehird> Insert Coin To Play
14:28:41 <ehird> oklopol: philosophorous
14:29:01 <oklopol> it is very philosophorous, i don't agree with it
14:29:26 <ehird> philosophorous is a material
14:29:26 <ehird> it is through its vector that we experience energy
14:29:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your opinion on the music of Elgar? And I know you know who he is, what with being a Brit
14:29:58 <ehird> AnMaster: actually i have n o idea. i'm … directing my energy vehicle to the google site that i know, oh so very well it's … it's pure…energy…oh,wow…
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14:30:05 <ehird> oklopol: bach is made of pure matter
14:30:09 <ehird> there are two types of compusture
14:30:21 <oklopol> did you know bach occasionally used his name in his compositions
14:30:25 <ehird> energy composers are enegetic, matter composers matter
14:30:33 <ehird> oklopol: yes, hofstadter told me.
14:30:51 <oklopol> 1032103210321032 it's really a trivial chromatic chemilabrication
14:30:52 <AnMaster> ehird, are you saying you don't know "Land of Hope and Glory"?
14:31:06 <ehird> AnMaster: well it rings a bel air… i'll ask the scope…
14:31:15 <ehird> oklopol: triple V X ultra +
14:31:24 <ehird> i am a secret amiga
14:31:34 <ehird> seventeen gnomes, a few years,
14:31:46 <AnMaster> I'll as the UK gov to lock you up ehird!
14:31:54 <ehird> you'll ass them real good
14:32:13 <ehird> i'm not eating nowadays. it seems to be the thing for the plebians, i'm not them
14:32:23 <ehird> oklopol: have you slept into it
14:32:45 <ehird> inferno, fire, brimstone, oklopol
14:32:48 <ehird> the four elements of the apocalypse
14:32:49 <oklopol> i slept a lot, i dreamt of this world, created by me; it has ai
14:33:03 <oklopol> and i though wow i want that
14:33:24 <ehird> i'm listening to my fashion, its' talkoing about me
14:33:50 <ehird> maybe we could listen to the buddha
14:34:12 <ehird> I want YOU for the SEALAND ARMY
14:34:38 <ehird> micronation suffering from micronesia
14:34:45 <ehird> they are small and off the coast, the nations don't recognize their posse
14:34:47 <ehird> that rhymed sort of
14:34:51 <ehird> anyway they say they are unique
14:34:55 <ehird> their statushood they tweak
14:34:59 <ehird> for they are not so meek
14:35:14 <ehird> they are tiny and pirate bay wanted to buy them but the giant squid got there first.
14:35:36 <ehird> actually tpb did want to buy them but their money is flotation
14:35:55 <ehird> let's make a dream of lousy.
14:36:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> actually tpb did want to buy them but their money is flotation <-- source?
14:36:17 <ehird> oklopol: tenable theorem/proposition, but what then of sleep?!
14:36:42 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/12/pirate_bay_buys_island/
14:36:44 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/17/piratebay_sealand_nationhood/
14:36:46 <oklopol> ehird: oh, right, i forgot about sleep
14:37:02 <ehird> sealand is only nation being in eyes of sealand though
14:37:15 <ehird> oklopol: right so if we use sleepons (sleep particles) without unconsciousness we make dream
14:37:24 <ehird> and distribute the dream computation across us all to make it more realistic
14:37:35 <ehird> we could have a physics team, effect team, reality coördination team etc
14:37:37 <ehird> and it would be lousy
14:37:55 <oklopol> you mean we'd make a connection of minds?
14:38:07 <ehird> dreaming using sleepons.
14:38:12 <ehird> http://www.tapirback.com/tapirgal/gifts/friends/insects/louse-stuffed-f1566.jpg ←←← ACTUAL SIZE
14:39:05 <ehird> blogosphere blogagent blogifying blogblogging neoblogging postblogging blogosphere bloggination blogs
14:39:41 <ehird> ambiguity but a million people.
14:39:47 <ehird> international waters fuck that shit
14:40:25 <ehird> territory of the mongrels oklopol?
14:40:31 <oklopol> i can't take myself anymore, need to go read or something.
14:40:38 <ehird> oklopol: take the meta
14:40:57 <ehird> vanity can shit you
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14:41:10 <oklopol> so, should i read algos, dosto or dict
14:41:25 <ehird> oklopol: the booke of irc
14:41:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> international waters fuck that shit <-- why?
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14:41:49 <ehird> AnMaster: man it's like you never flew.
14:42:11 -!- ineiros has joined.
14:42:31 <ehird> let me explain to nitrocycerin
14:42:36 <AnMaster> but the third time was just inside Sweden, in a small Cessna 172
14:42:37 <oklopol> i've flewn more times than you
14:43:02 <ehird> okay, here's my thoughtssssss
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14:43:17 <ehird> ask yourself this question
14:43:25 <ehird> has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
14:43:29 <ehird> and your answer will imbibe.
14:43:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with international waters anyway
14:44:00 <AnMaster> I flew inside Europe the time I flew.
14:44:06 <ehird> AnMaster: has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
14:44:09 <ehird> it's the question you need
14:44:12 <ehird> you have to self-comprehend it
14:44:39 <ehird> dude you're a fucking ////////////// vagabond
14:44:51 <ehird> you've got to be directing
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14:46:55 <ehird> THIS IS FUCKING IMPORTANT
14:46:59 <ehird> HAVE YOU EVER KNOWN A PLATAPY
14:48:15 <ehird> smurf smurf smurf musrf musrfm usrfm usmrf us msurfm surfm usmur msrf musrufm srmfu sm ruf smrfu smrfu srmf us msrfu smrfu smrfu smfurfm us mruf msrfumsfu m srufm surfm usrmfu smeruf msrfu ms surfm smurfm suf
14:49:48 <GregorR> ehird has been drinking again.
14:50:02 <ehird> GregorR: you have to comprehend the glio-field imbursed by oklopol
14:50:09 <ehird> it interacts with tectonic ehirdiments
14:50:24 <ehird> is like a person named cond
14:50:32 <ehird> so condiments are capitalist
14:51:45 <oklopol> ooooooooooooo the fact that you think
14:51:56 <oklopol> i don't think that's a fact
14:52:14 <ehird> would i to think, perchance to cognit
14:52:35 <ehird> fall on to a cliff anyway
14:52:39 <ehird> you migt understandh
14:52:47 <ehird> oklopol: well if i think i might cognit which is congition
14:52:59 <ehird> and diamond is crystalline structure of neuron
14:53:26 <oklopol> well you only wish it was your cognition
14:53:35 <oklopol> and you wish it without actually having it
14:53:43 <ehird> i'm psychic oklopol, can predict the future, but to understand it i need muture
14:53:58 <ehird> I NEE DTHE um what was muture again
14:54:05 <ehird> oh hm that probability thingy?????????? heuristic
14:54:10 <ehird> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/muture.txt is unhelpful lol
14:54:14 <ehird> anyway i'm a diamond of the structure
14:54:18 <ehird> and the reflection may be optical cognit
14:55:04 <ehird> great depression reverse to the dispersion of the universe corners
14:55:39 <oklopol> muture is a great language
14:55:44 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:56:03 <ehird> it's FUCKEN great and FUCKEN how is iFUCKENt that it be so the paradigmal? FUCKEN
14:56:11 <ehird> i don't underFUCKENstand the pFUCKENaradigm
14:56:18 <oklopol> ehird how is that unhelpful, it shows the basic idea of the lang
14:56:21 <ehird> oh no i have chronic FUCKEN FUCKEN illness
14:56:29 <ehird> it puts FUCKEN in FUCKEN the most inappropriate FUCKEN places
14:56:37 <oklopol> at least ais523 understood it right away
14:56:38 <ehird> oklopol: but am crystalline and not the cognit too well advancedly...
14:56:45 <ehird> match a b = if a == b then 0 else -1
14:56:50 <ehird> suggests a probability structure of understandy
14:57:00 <ehird> so i think we are probability weight to find answer in ourselves
14:57:42 <ehird> just————————goddamnswitch onxit
14:58:40 <ehird> oklopol: now the what
14:59:20 <ehird> i am the oone that ones the ones of the ones which must one all the ones for the one
14:59:34 <ehird> oklopol: run a bit
14:59:50 <ehird> oklopol: in finderland, oklopol finderland oklopol
15:01:03 <oklopol> does anyone here know how italian is pronounced
15:01:26 <ehird> oklopol: it alley an
15:01:33 <ehird> except the a in alley is too subtle
15:02:25 <oklopol> that's not exactly what i meant
15:02:41 <ehird> oklopol: oh, i actually didn't realise.
15:03:26 <oklopol> i'm fairly booksmart at english pronunciation
15:03:53 <oklopol> my cousin taught me most of french yesterday, but he doesn't know italian
15:14:14 * ehird finds a screenshot he made from november 2006. cool. :P
15:14:42 <ehird> when i used crappy fluxbox :d
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15:21:58 <AnMaster> <GregorR> ehird has been drinking again. <-- I trust this explanation more than what ehird suggested instead.
15:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you used linux back then?
15:22:39 <ehird> i used linux until 2006-12 and then sporadically in 2007 and maybe once or twice in 2008
15:22:47 <ehird> (2006-12 is when i bought my imac)
15:22:54 <AnMaster> ehird, so you had a non-mac then?
15:23:05 <ehird> umm, yes, my old, crappy pc that hates itself
15:23:15 <ehird> and sounds like an aeroplane
15:24:14 <ehird> sec, lemme edit+upload it so we can all revel in the ugly.
15:24:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you liked it back then?
15:24:52 <ehird> i didn't really care all that much, but sure, it worked
15:25:20 <ehird> it sucked though to be without a sense of aesthetics. whoever said form and function are unrelated?
15:26:11 <oklopol> where's augur when you need one
15:27:34 <ehird> http://imgur.com/FbLgy.png ← Here we see fluxbox, an rxvt fork that had tabs (not urxvt), firefox and amarok
15:27:45 <ehird> admittedly, only the rxvt fork's window is a ctually visible, but...
15:27:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:28:02 <ehird> i like how you can't see any window border. that's fucking stupid.
15:28:21 <ehird> "hurr, i'm the terminal and i'm enveloping your WHOLE SCREEN".
15:29:13 <ehird> as for distro... well, nov 2006 with firefox icon being juts the globe
15:29:15 <ehird> i think ubuntu did that
15:29:25 <ehird> didn't firefox go straight from artwork to iceweasel?
15:29:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the blue globe
15:29:41 <ehird> (it's what you get when you build FF without mozilla branding)
15:29:58 <ehird> ubuntu just built it without the logo for a bit while mozilla was bugging them
15:30:17 <ehird> AnMaster: i like how i had two terminals open
15:30:20 <ehird> real good use of tabbing that
15:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, why didn't ubuntu just use the official build? *shrug*
15:30:28 <ehird> also, you can see my window manager has tabs
15:30:33 <ehird> "Terminal Terminal Terminal"
15:30:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it might have been that you wanted to hide some other tab?
15:31:09 <ehird> AnMaster: well, for one, debian build all their stuff
15:31:41 <ehird> AnMaster: well, either debian have to use mozilla's binaries direct
15:31:48 <ehird> or they can't use "Firefox" or the logo
15:31:48 <AnMaster> if you can't build it it is obviously non-free.
15:31:58 <ehird> the artwork and name are non-free
15:32:09 <ehird> but what you get from mozilla.org is 100% NOT
15:32:21 <ehird> meh, mozilla have always been as bad as sun
15:32:51 <ehird> mpl takes 1 gpl to do what mit does in a tiny fraction
15:32:57 <ehird> with some other pointless restrictions
15:33:04 <sgeo> Good idea or bad idea: Making a playlist of some music from a game in HTML 5?
15:33:29 <ehird> what's that got to do with html5
15:33:38 <ehird> omg some javascript links that change an <audio> element!
15:33:41 <sgeo> Easy to make a playlist?
15:34:01 <ehird> why on earth would i want to download them and put them in my music library when I can LISTEN IN MY BROWSER WITH A STUPID INTERFACE
15:34:20 <AnMaster> from (a game [written in] in HTML 5)
15:34:32 * sgeo will also provide some text detailing where in the game the music was found
15:34:37 <ehird> that would make marginally more sense, AnMaster
15:34:46 <ehird> it'd just be a soundtrack to some sort of web-technology-experimental game
15:34:50 <AnMaster> ehird, except I added an extra in there by mistake
15:34:50 <ehird> not as weird as this
15:35:03 <ehird> sgeo: you could do that in the title field. or the comment field.
15:35:06 <ehird> of an mp3 or ogg or whatever.
15:35:45 <sgeo> I really don't think anyone wants to download the music for theirselves.. although if they did, they could, obviously
15:35:56 <ehird> "I really don't think anyone wants to download the music for theirselves"
15:35:58 <ehird> are you fucking serious?
15:36:12 -!- ineiros has joined.
15:36:15 <ehird> you think people would rather click around on a crappy webpage relying on you to OMG tell their browser to play some files
15:36:24 <ehird> than click and get the files themselves, giving the exact same functionality
15:36:28 <ehird> except in a media player they might be used to
15:36:29 <AnMaster> ehird, we need more javascript games. No flash or java or silly stuff
15:36:31 <ehird> and without relying on you
15:36:54 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah html5+canvas+javascript games will be fun
15:36:59 <ehird> flash will still have the performance edge though
15:37:02 <ehird> even with things like canvas3d
15:37:25 <sgeo> ehird, you want me to make a .m3u playlist, basically?
15:37:38 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't chrome have a blazing fast javascript JIT?
15:37:47 <ehird> sgeo: i'm saying that "should I make <unbelievably stupid thing>?" is no
15:37:48 <ehird> AnMaster: sort of.
15:38:04 <ehird> AnMaster: it was the fastest, then SquirrelFish Extreme (— ahem — Nitro) was released to fuck them in the ass.
15:38:07 <ehird> and now it's about equal
15:38:10 <ehird> apart from mozilla browsers
15:38:12 <ehird> which are way behind
15:38:31 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/v8/
15:38:33 <ehird> is chrome's engine
15:38:42 <ehird> http://webkit.org/ for SFX :P
15:39:20 <ehird> nitro = marketing name for squirrel fish extreme
15:39:24 <ehird> 15:38 ehird: http://webkit.org/ for SFX :P
15:39:37 <ehird> http://builds.nightly.webkit.org/files/trunk/src/WebKit-r45855.tar.bz2
15:39:57 <ehird> ooh, i have an idea for multicore computers
15:40:10 <ehird> run both v8 and sfx at once on every JS program you find
15:40:14 <ehird> and when one completes, kill the other
15:40:25 <ehird> JS programs are single-threaded so as long as you don't have too many tabs it'll be just as fast
15:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, and record which was fastest?
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15:40:44 <ehird> this is for a browser
15:40:52 <ehird> they both race to complete
15:40:56 <ehird> and the one that does fastest ins
15:41:19 <ehird> so if you don't have multiple tabs doing js at once (so that you have less than 2*tabs cores) and JS stays single-threaded... :-D
15:41:47 <ehird> i think it's being worked on.
15:41:53 <ehird> #include "wtf/FastMalloc.cpp"
15:41:57 <ehird> WebKit: you can rely on it.
15:42:04 <ehird> I wonder if wtf really stands for, well, wtf.
15:42:29 <AnMaster> ehird, "webkit transitional filesystem"?
15:42:41 <AnMaster> doesn't work with "fast malloc"
15:42:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also, including a cpp is pretty wtf
15:43:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it's AllInOneFile.cpp
15:43:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, to optimise better or something...? RIIGHT
15:44:02 <ehird> ...but since it's apple it's obviously bad.
15:44:06 <AnMaster> ehird, but why not use -combine for gcc or -ipo for icc?
15:44:16 <AnMaster> I thought sqlite was silly for that too
15:44:29 <AnMaster> except it also does it for ease of redistribution. Easy to include in your source
15:44:37 <AnMaster> like if you want to include it when embedding
15:44:39 <ehird> why not ask them? they're in #webkit/
15:45:14 <AnMaster> garlic on salt bed in oven for 45 minutes (at 175 C)
15:45:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:45:49 <ehird> Garlic and salt: meal of an masters.
15:52:39 -!- jix has joined.
15:57:45 <ehird> "It's just one of those things, you know. All they did was drugs in the 70s and there's no explanation for anything."
16:01:13 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:01:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: have you ever been a monster?
16:03:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: ...what?
16:03:48 <GregorR-L> What's wonderful is that that's actually an accurate and useful definition of the battery life, I'm just quoting it horrendously out of context :P
16:04:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: oh, it's like, you can have it on and walk 2 acres? :P
16:05:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: I assumed laptop for some reason
16:05:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: also, that sounds fucking awesome.
16:05:24 <ehird> is it better or worse at finding paths than a roomba? :D
16:05:47 <GregorR-L> I'm guessing "worse", since it's on the same Chinese import site where I bought my cell phone watch :P
16:06:42 <ehird> GregorR-L: my mobile is a watch too, it's just not a wrist watch.
16:06:46 <ehird> perhaps you meant wristwatch :P
16:06:57 <GregorR-L> I'm fighting the battle against pocketwatches.
16:07:08 <GregorR-L> We thought we'd won ... we'd won so much that "watch" implied "wristwatch"
16:07:16 <GregorR-L> Then ... the mobile phones came ...
16:07:18 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/MontreGousset001.jpg
16:07:23 <ehird> it's SO FUCKING CLASSY.
16:07:35 <GregorR-L> That's not a modern pocketwatch :P
16:07:37 <ehird> and do you know why?
16:07:43 <ehird> IT LOOKS LIKE A FUCKING MONOCOLE!
16:07:52 <ehird> If everything looked like a monocole, we'd be so goddamn classy.
16:07:55 <GregorR-L> http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50225954/Cell_Phone.jpg <-- this is a modern pocketwatch
16:08:25 <ehird> I have shit one: http://www.mapds.com.au/newsletters/0807/iphone_home.gif
16:08:28 <ehird> I wanted to type this
16:08:35 <ehird> FREUD IS HAVING A FIELD DAY
16:08:46 <ehird> Deewiant: polycole? :D
16:08:48 <GregorR-L> I wrote that before you wrote that, but hit enter too late :P
16:08:49 <Deewiant> Kind of like how you wanted to type monocle but typed monocole
16:09:11 <ehird> Freudian slip: when you wanted to type monocole, but type me and your uncle.
16:09:25 <ehird> (That was smoooooooth)
16:09:30 <ehird> (That's what she said)
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16:45:49 -!- nooga has joined.
16:50:42 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ6Q224UPkc
16:54:49 <AnMaster> do I dare watch it? SFW conditions
16:56:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it's jesus porn
16:57:43 <AnMaster> why is it using two tabs for all animations?
16:58:24 <Deewiant> You don't want flickering, do you?
16:58:45 <AnMaster> the "threede_part" didn't use that
16:59:11 <Deewiant> Since it just fills in the background
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17:00:20 <Deewiant> Yeah they didn't use it for those 3D spinners
17:01:07 <Deewiant> Maybe it's because the quality is so good that you wouldn't notice any artifacts in any case :-P
17:02:07 <Deewiant> And no, that's the whole point of a demo
17:02:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the sets of cells to activate
17:02:38 <Deewiant> Err, the sets of cells to activate are what makes the whole demo, no?
17:03:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ... they could either pre-calculate the sets of cells to activate each tick and provide an array of them. Or it could calculate it on the fly, to rotate the 3D model "in place". if you see what I mean
17:03:49 <Deewiant> Oh right, you meant for those in particullar
17:04:32 <Deewiant> Well, it's impossible to know from here whether it was calculated before the animation or not
17:05:43 <Deewiant> http://bp.untergrund.net/download.php?dir=2009/console_real_wild/&file=excelence_bb_bp09_wild.zip, let's see
17:05:50 <AnMaster> if calculated in advance, well quite a bit of work put into it... but calculating it on the fly is much more impressive
17:05:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't have excel so I can't check.
17:06:04 <Deewiant> Well I doubt they calculated it by /hand/ in any case
17:06:18 -!- nice has joined.
17:06:26 <ehird> nice: you're nice.
17:06:26 <Deewiant> What I'm thinking is that either it's calculated then and there or before/during a previous animation
17:06:59 -!- nice_ has joined.
17:07:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'm even booted into Windows at the moment, so I can check it.
17:07:16 -!- nice_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:07:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess you will have to allow macros this time ;P
17:07:32 <Deewiant> No, I just have to look at the source
17:08:03 <Deewiant> 'Course, that would be easier if I knew how this thing worked
17:09:09 <Deewiant> ' project the 3d object to a 2d screen
17:09:09 <Deewiant> sx1 = ((rp1.x * viewpoint) / (rp1.Z + zdepth)) + offsetx
17:09:09 <Deewiant> sy1 = ((rp1.y * viewpoint) / (rp1.Z + zdepth)) + offsety
17:09:09 <Deewiant> sx2 = ((rp2.x * viewpoint) / (rp2.Z + zdepth)) + offsetx
17:09:09 <Deewiant> sy2 = ((rp2.y * viewpoint) / (rp2.Z + zdepth)) + offsety
17:10:37 <Deewiant> There's a sheet called 'threedeedata' where they define 20 line segments which make up the object
17:10:59 <pikhq> I do believe that that is a case for macros if ever I saw one.
17:11:26 <ehird> pikhq: a macro just for that?
17:11:26 <Deewiant> p1.x = Sheets(dataSheet).Cells(line, 1)
17:11:26 <Deewiant> p1.y = Sheets(dataSheet).Cells(line, 2)
17:11:26 <Deewiant> p1.Z = Sheets(dataSheet).Cells(line, 3)
17:11:26 <Deewiant> p2.x = Sheets(dataSheet).Cells(line, 4)
17:11:29 <Deewiant> p2.y = Sheets(dataSheet).Cells(line, 5)
17:11:31 <Deewiant> p2.Z = Sheets(dataSheet).Cells(line, 6)
17:12:07 <pikhq> ehird: I'm assuming that's done more often.
17:12:28 <ehird> thought you meant macros in excel docs
17:12:32 <ehird> pikhq: protip: they could just be arrays and use a function
17:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: what's argh
17:12:38 <pikhq> Deewiant: WHY IS Z UPPERCASE?
17:12:42 <ehird> sometimes the simplest thing is best
17:12:49 <ehird> z being uppercase is weird though
17:12:51 <pikhq> ehird: Ah, yes. That is quite possible.
17:12:55 <ehird> AnMaster: what was
17:16:51 <ehird> Zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
17:17:36 <Deewiant> ̵̡̢̛̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̿̿̿̚ ҉ ҉҉̡̢̡̢̛̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑ ͡҉҉
17:18:06 <Slereah> (Also it doesn't work on irc)
17:18:18 <ehird> Bees, bees, bebebebebees bees bees be bees.
17:18:24 <Deewiant> I guess it does depending on your font and terminal
17:18:32 <ehird> Be be be be be be be be, be be, (bu) bees, bees, bees, bees, bees bees bees biis!
17:18:36 <Slereah> Not sure any irc program has it
17:18:43 <ehird> Bees bees, be be bees, bees bees bees bees bees
17:18:57 <GregorR-L> I don't know what I'm supposed to be seeing.
17:19:13 <GregorR-L> It expands and contracts when I select it :P
17:19:16 <Deewiant> Ideally it should "bleed" into the neighbouring rows
17:19:30 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: No, just left and right.
17:19:31 <pikhq> Deewiant: That actually shows as nothing at all.
17:20:03 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q=zalgo - browsers handle it better
17:20:24 <Deewiant> (In before anybody goes all Lynx on me)
17:21:04 <ehird> Don't think, feel. Then you'll be tanasinn.
17:21:54 <Slereah> I always felt Zalgo was kinda the tanasinn of murrican boards
17:22:12 <pikhq> Deewiant: What the crap is that?
17:22:16 <ehird> Tanasinn is much more zen than boring old Zalgo, though.
17:22:48 -!- nice has quit (Connection timed out).
17:22:51 <Slereah> It's hard to represent nicely as non-SJIS, though
17:22:55 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> ̵̡̢̛̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̿̿̿̚ ҉ ҉҉̡̢̡̢̛̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑ ͡҉҉ <-- poor unicode. What is it supposed to look like? My system fails at that many combining chars
17:23:14 <Slereah> I think the best one I've seen is :
17:23:15 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers8/2566280.jpg
17:23:50 <ehird> ∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴
17:23:53 <ehird> ∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴∵∴
17:24:23 <Slereah> Dude, this is ju$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B s$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(Be$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B
17:24:55 -!- Slereah has set topic: ???????????????????????????????????????? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the Konami Code AT ALL TIMES | $BcfBd+qcfFd+scf@d+rcf@d+r(BBA[start].
17:24:59 <AnMaster> tell me when you returned to unusual insanity instead of this insanity
17:25:23 -!- AnMaster has set topic: ???????????????????????????????????????? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the words esoteric programming languages AT ALL TIMES | $BcfBd+qcfFd+scf@d+rcf@d+r(BBA[start].
17:25:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't thi∵k, ∴∵e∴.
17:26:40 <Slereah> AnMaster : I hope this will clear it up : http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Tanasinn
17:27:03 <MizardX> The new topic shows as "$" followed by "BcfBd+qcfFd+scf@d+rcf@d+r(BBA[start]"
17:27:48 <Slereah> Really, with tanasinn, you pretty much have to figure it out yourself
17:28:00 <ehird> Slereah: DON'T HELP HIM!
17:28:03 <Slereah> No one will explain it to you seriously
17:28:19 <Slereah> It'll just b$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B$Bch(B
17:29:36 <ehird> ////////////////////ATROPHY OF FORM
17:32:57 <AnMaster> Slereah, I just see lots of boxes on that page
17:34:29 <AnMaster> s a[]I[][][][]ne[][][][]m[]that[]
17:34:47 <ehird> internet problems?
17:35:02 <ehird> then something's up
17:35:20 <AnMaster> ∵ ∴ seems to render as three dots in my irc client
17:35:31 <ehird> encoding issues, I guess
17:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, "tanasinn is a∵I∵∴∵∴ne∵∴∵∴m∴that∵∴∵∴d∵∴" in firefox
17:36:12 <ehird> The last section is headered "External links" for me here.
17:36:16 <ehird> What's it for you?
17:36:39 <ehird> Slereah: any ideas?
17:36:59 <AnMaster> ehird, your practical joke that you can read it
17:37:18 <ehird> (a) it's not a joke, (b) if it was a joke there's nothing "practical" about it, lern2english
17:37:28 <ehird> i'm betting on your isp, your dns sucks too after all
17:37:48 <AnMaster> ehird, also I fail to see how that would work. Let me start tor and check
17:38:32 <AnMaster> certainly using tor, it is slow as fuck
17:38:38 <ehird> i think it's probably direct from your isp
17:38:42 <ehird> as opposed to where you get it from
17:38:50 <ehird> i've never had a problem with that page linking it to people
17:38:55 <ehird> report it to your isp?
17:39:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not falling for this
17:39:17 <ehird> sorry for fucking trying to help
17:42:17 <ehird> i'm busy with something atm, gimme a bit
17:42:20 <ehird> not exactly high-priority :P
17:42:43 <ehird> you need to get that paranoia of yours checked out
17:43:43 <AnMaster> ehird, the odd symbols are in http://tanasinn.info/index.php?title=Tanasinn&action=edit
17:43:56 <ehird> i think it's your isp.
17:44:07 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, he is joking right?
17:44:23 <GregorR-L> Is he suggesting that your ISP is changing unicode characters just to be sneaky?
17:45:08 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I'm not even stepping into this one.
17:46:44 <AnMaster> anyway I won't believe it any more since he has obviously had time to fake it
17:47:01 <ehird> http://imgur.com/ykfiH.png
17:47:05 <ehird> i don't give a damn if you believe me or not
17:47:09 <ehird> but you're being really paranoid.
17:47:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that is jut that section
17:47:35 <ehird> Funny, that; I don't have a ginormous screen.
17:47:48 <AnMaster> ehird, show me the upper section instead? :/
17:48:04 <ehird> I've given you a screenhot; I don't really care if your paranoid whims dictate that it's faked or whatever.
17:48:24 -!- M0ny has quit.
17:48:28 <ehird> You should get help.
17:49:00 <AnMaster> ehird, look at the show source page, hm I guess my firefox version has problems with whatever CSS it uses to hide things
17:49:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:49:20 <ehird> source looks fine here
17:49:36 <AnMaster> ehird, tor proves it wasn't that
17:49:39 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:49:52 <ehird> no, it proves that your isp is doing shit to the page before sending it to you
17:49:58 <ehird> deep packet inspection gone wrong i guess?
17:50:13 <ehird> maybe someone set up tanasinn.info to randomly give out mangled/not pages based on IP
17:50:16 <ehird> that'd be very tanasinn.
17:50:17 <AnMaster> ehird, tor encrypts the data payload though
17:50:26 <ehird> then probably the latter
17:50:51 <AnMaster> ehird, the main page isn't mangled
17:51:06 <ehird> "Your first-stop resource about more than 325∴∵555-2368 diff∵∴ren∵∴to∵ics∵[C∴∵∴ion N∴∵∴∵∴∵∴]"
17:51:17 <ehird> guess it's random based on page/ip/phase of moon etc
17:51:27 <AnMaster> ehird, apart from that single line
17:57:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:00:27 <AnMaster> ais523, saw that ATHR is partly working now?
18:00:33 <AnMaster> ais523, http://pastebin.ca/1494613
18:00:41 <ehird> with his telepathic powers.
18:00:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't sure if he was here when I mentioned it or not
18:01:17 <ehird> Telepathic powers.
18:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say you slept badly or something?
18:03:03 <GregorR-L> Am I the only person more aroused by the phrase "fuck off" than inclined to leave? :P
18:03:16 <ehird> When a 13 year old says it? Yes.
18:03:40 <oklopol> well when a boy as cute as ehird says it...
18:03:46 <AnMaster> I'm neither of the two mentioned
18:03:51 <ehird> oklopol: MORE EVIDENCE YOU'RE GA— wait i thought you were oerjan. fuck.
18:03:57 <AnMaster> I just want to bug whoever said it even more
18:04:09 * GregorR-L gives oklopol a big bearhug. Yeah, that kind. lawlawl
18:04:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: you mean an icebreaker game in which an odd number of people are divided into pairs, leaving one member without a partner?
18:05:01 <oklopol> well i hear you look like a chick.
18:05:03 <ehird> or perhaps an unsolicited takeover bid which is so generous that the shareholders of the target company are very unlikely to refuse
18:05:14 <ehird> oklopol: rumors of my chickiness are greatly exaggerated
18:05:34 <GregorR-L> You people and your not immediately interpreting the word "bear" in the gay sense.
18:05:35 <oklopol> that's an awesome icebreaker game :D
18:06:03 <oklopol> maybe it's an actual long game and the one lonely guy just watches
18:06:23 <oklopol> i think it's more that it was so obvious there was no need to mention it
18:06:29 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That sense of the word 'bear' comes up far too often at college. :P
18:06:42 <ehird> oklopol: "The player without a partner calls 2-5 names, depending upon the size of the group, of players sitting in the front. Those player then try to make their way to the player without a partner, while their partners attempt to hold them back. The match ends when a player reaches the player who called the names. Players who were called and failed to reach the caller switch places with their partner so they are now in the back. The game often involves
18:06:45 <ehird> injuries due to the violent struggles between partners."
18:06:50 * pikhq shakes fist at Misha.
18:06:54 <GregorR-L> pikhq: What college do YOU go to? X-P
18:07:40 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's just because a couple of my friends there are gay. And into bears. So, it manages to come up somehow.
18:07:52 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, err, is a bear gay?
18:07:56 <ehird> do bears have big penises or something
18:08:03 <ehird> AnMaster: A++++ would laugh again
18:08:10 <GregorR-L> A bear is a larger, usu. more muscular, perhaps more hairy gay guy.
18:08:20 <ehird> i'd google for bear penis but um no
18:08:51 <AnMaster> don't think it is a valid nick?
18:09:16 <GregorR-L> There's some pseudosecretive group here called "bear club" that I only know of the existence of because there's an email to the PL mailing list every now and then saying "bear club tonight at 7" or something.
18:09:26 <AnMaster> well nick AnMaster+ didn't work
18:09:28 <GregorR-L> I am utterly incapable of interpreting that in any way except a gay bear orgy.
18:09:45 <GregorR-L> Several of the members are married :P
18:10:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: The only solution to this dilemma is to get in to the bear club.
18:10:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Pasta Lovers.
18:10:18 <ehird> It's an old university joke.
18:11:53 <GregorR-L> oklopol: No, I THINK what it actually is is a group of guys who go drinking.
18:12:02 <GregorR-L> So I'd actually prefer the other form of bear club :P
18:12:21 <oklopol> there's a same-sex group thingie here too
18:12:30 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I meant as in "don't drink"
18:12:33 <oklopol> i don't think it's about orgies tho
18:12:37 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: I know, but it was hilarious timing :P
18:12:38 <AnMaster> that was what the \o/ was about
18:12:45 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> oklopol: No, I THINK what it actually is is a group of guys who go drinking.
18:12:45 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> And I don't drink.
18:12:50 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> So I'd actually prefer the other form of bear club :P
18:14:01 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, you really have good taste, you know
18:14:20 <ehird> AnMaster: why the fuck are you so obsessed with people who don't drink or do drugs/
18:14:25 <GregorR-L> Actually, I don't drink precisely because I have bad taste; or more accurately, bad smell :P
18:14:30 <ehird> you practically have sex with them over IRC whenever anyone mentions it
18:14:37 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, 1) doesn't drink alcohol 2) likes classical music
18:14:46 <ehird> <AnMaster> 3) is my hopeful future gay lover
18:14:55 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, but I'm *definitely* not gay
18:15:25 <pikhq> The correct term is 'transsexual'.
18:15:48 <ehird> pikhq: what's transsexual got to do with it
18:15:52 <GregorR-L> If I'm ever a restauranteur (extremely unlikely scenario), I'd make a BLT sandwich with Guacamole.
18:16:04 <GregorR-L> The GBLT sandwich may not sell well, but it'd be awesome.
18:16:12 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Delicious.
18:16:18 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, how do you feel about garlic?
18:16:29 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Guac would work better on a BLT, but garlic is pretty sweet.
18:16:40 <GregorR-L> It can be garlicy guacamole, but there can't be two G's in the GBLT :P
18:16:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, ok. Definitely good taste ;P
18:16:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Hyposmia makes *subtle* tastes hard for him.
18:17:05 <pikhq> Garlic is anything but subtle.
18:17:26 <pikhq> ehird: The bits that are enjoyable are.
18:17:27 <GregorR-L> Actually, it seems to make /liquid/ tastes hard for me, mostly :P
18:17:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you tried wine? I thought there was some age limit on that
18:18:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, um, ehird is in Europe...
18:18:19 <ehird> FUN FACT: Nobody under the age of 18 has ever had even one drop of alcoholic drink. FUN FACT: The only way to know if something tastes subtle or not is to gulp it down yourself.
18:18:23 <pikhq> I'm saying that the age limits are less crazy in Europe.
18:18:23 <AnMaster> and at least Sweden has an age limit for alcohol
18:18:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not saying that most people follow it
18:18:42 <AnMaster> just that it is in there in law
18:19:03 <AnMaster> or maybe that is for buying alcohol
18:19:12 <GregorR-L> 21 in US, but that soooo doesn't stop anyone at all.
18:19:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: In some states, 21 except if your parents give it to you.
18:20:11 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Those some states would be "nearly all states", as far as I understand.
18:20:18 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, in Sweden normal stores aren't allowed to sell alcohol. Only http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget is
18:20:32 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: That's true in some states, but not most.
18:20:38 <pikhq> Oh? I thought that many states had made that illegal for some random craziness.
18:21:05 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I've never looked it up, so I really only know for Oregon and Indiana, but I was under the impression that it's pretty normal :P
18:21:13 <GregorR-L> pikhq: What with not wanting to make Catholics mad.
18:21:26 <GregorR-L> pikhq: But then, they're not drinking alcohol anyway, they're drinking HUMAN FUCKING BLOOD.
18:21:42 <AnMaster> and from what I heard, Systembolaget always want legitimation to check that you are at least 21
18:21:46 <AnMaster> not that I ever been there myself
18:21:50 <pikhq> Ah, the Catholic craziness concerning transubstantiaton.
18:21:50 <ehird> jesus flesh tastes oddly like bread.
18:22:05 <pikhq> (how the crap that can be considered anything but symbolic is beyond me)
18:22:07 <ehird> pikhq: It's crazy even if you don't believe it's literally his flesh and blood, y'know.
18:24:16 <GregorR-L> That's the only interpretation of that smiley I can figure out.
18:24:28 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I can't see that interpretation
18:24:47 <AnMaster> and there is a REALLY SAD mouth below
18:25:05 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, that == "I have diarrhea"?
18:25:12 <AnMaster> I can think of other reasons to be that sad
18:25:24 <ehird> You look like D-X when you're just sad?
18:25:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not often sad. but more like :( then
18:25:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Somebody just shot his mom, dad, siblings, and dog. And sent him a bill for the bullets.
18:26:20 <fizzie> Hmph, VLC 1.0.0 "Support for Mac OS X 10.4.x was dropped due to its technical limitations". No love for Tiger any more.
18:26:25 <ehird> 18:25 pikhq: AnMaster: Somebody just shot his mom, dad, siblings, and dog. And sent him a bill for the bullets.
18:26:32 <ehird> I thought that was a news flash.
18:27:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, everything tends to work on 1 year old linux kernel still, with the possible exception of the latest udev (and who needs the latest udev?)
18:28:28 <AnMaster> yet on OS X and windows there seems to be compatiblity issues very often
18:29:13 <AnMaster> anyone know a channel discussing classical music?
18:31:41 <GregorR-L> (The shot family and sent bill for bullets sadness)
18:33:03 <ehird> fizzie: with AnMaster's convincing 2 line argument based on minimal, biased anecdotal evidence you'd better switch all of your machines to a 1 year old linux kernel
18:33:09 <ehird> also, don't use udev, because he said so.
18:33:52 <pikhq> I thought most Linux software worked just fine on 2.6.16 and newer.
18:34:07 <AnMaster> I just said, from my own experience that even if you don't update it tends to be easy to use older kernels
18:34:36 <AnMaster> also you can have some issues with glibc, depending on the minimal version it is built for
18:35:31 <fizzie> Yes, well, I don't have an "often" feeling for OS X issues, possibly because I don't use it very often either, but I've sort-of been dreading the day people start dropping Tiggur support; VLC is the first case I ran into. Admittedly Tiger is rather more than "1 year old", given that it was released in 2005.
18:37:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: 2.6.16 is still maintained by some people who want a stable branch.
18:37:45 <AnMaster> I have recently successfully used a 2.4 kernel
18:38:09 <AnMaster> compiled with gcc 3.4 though, didn't try newer gcc
18:38:42 <ehird> fizzie: most apps i see don't work on tiger these days
18:38:49 <ehird> just pirate leopard, it's great
18:39:00 <AnMaster> http://kernel.org/ <-- even 2.2 is listed there
18:39:04 <fizzie> I don't want to be an evil space-pirate.
18:39:08 <AnMaster> and the 2.4 kernel listed is from 2009
18:39:30 <GregorR-L> GCC 4 would probably work fine on kernel 2.2
18:39:39 <fizzie> I don't suppose they're going to start selling Leopard extra-cheap after the Snow Leopard is released? My PPC iBook won't run 10.6 anyway.
18:39:50 <GregorR-L> (In that the libc is more important, and I would be quite surprised if the most recent glibc didn't work on 2.2)
18:40:11 <ehird> fizzie: They won't sell it at all.
18:40:40 <fizzie> VLC 1.0.0's OS X changelog also lists "Speed improvements by using llvm-gcc".
18:40:45 <ehird> fizzie: Anyway, you sent me that evil pirate quickbasic.
18:40:46 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Small chance Glibc 2.11 will finally dumb 2.2 support. :P
18:40:49 <ehird> you're already in space.
18:40:56 <ehird> pikhq: eglibc might! :P
18:41:29 <GregorR-L> Well, dropping all support for linuxthreads would do it, but IIRC it's still an option in the latest glibc.
18:41:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, dumb. :P
18:58:22 <AnMaster> it shuffles playlist for cd to be sorted by track name from freedb
18:58:30 <AnMaster> I want to play it in original cd order
18:59:09 <ehird> use an actual music player.
19:00:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, mplayer doesn't have a playlist does it?
19:01:23 <pikhq> It's got command line arguments.
19:01:26 <ehird> mpd, amarok, rhythmbox, banshee, ...
19:01:34 <ehird> you know; things designed to handle a library of music.
19:02:11 <GregorR-L> mplayer -cache 1024 -shuffle -playlist foo -vo x11 -fs
19:02:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:03:15 <GregorR-L> Have I mentioned that mplayer is the only player I use? :P
19:03:23 <GregorR-L> And that {g,k,whatever}mplayer is for pussies?
19:03:38 <GregorR-L> And that mencoder is pretty sweet too, although I'll admit I use ffmpeg for some things there.
19:03:49 <AnMaster> hm it seems I'm connected using ipv6 actually, how strange
19:03:53 -!- AnMaster has changed nick to AnMaster_ipv6.
19:04:05 <GregorR-L> Wouldn't want to fail to announce your IPv6itude.
19:04:10 -!- coppro has joined.
19:04:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: exactly my thoughts.
19:04:28 <GregorR-L> Now as far as coppro knows I just said something profound.
19:14:41 <oklopol> GregorR-L: wow that was insightful
19:15:02 <GregorR-L> oklopol: I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the moment is gone P
19:15:47 <oklopol> i know, i think that was why i did it
19:16:16 <GregorR-L> The next time somebody logs in, everybody act like oklopol just said something both insightful AND profound.
19:16:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:21:35 <oklopol> yes, generally, our university has a pretty nice website
19:21:58 <oklopol> maybe it's because i know how it works
19:22:13 <ehird> your university is dna
19:22:21 <ehird> note: the page ain't loaded yet
19:22:50 <GregorR-L> www.cs.purdue.edu isn't that bad, except that for a CS department we sure can't figure out how to drop a fekking 'www'
19:22:57 <GregorR-L> (cs.purdue.edu actually DOES NOT WORK. Incredible)
19:23:16 <GregorR-L> cs.purdue.edu used to not work, now it forwards :P
19:23:25 <GregorR-L> ehird: It should be cs.purdue.edu, but it's www.cs.purdue.edu
19:23:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: no, it should be www.www.cs.perdue.edu
19:23:41 <oklopol> but utu means like fog, so it's all good
19:23:41 <oklopol> heh, we have the exact same thing
19:23:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: as i said.
19:25:05 <oklopol> actually i didn't get it either
19:25:13 <ehird> you didn't get it faster? :D
19:25:43 <oklopol> i got it faster than GregorR-L, because i'm a superior being
19:25:48 <ehird> Welcome to the University of quality and vision
19:25:48 <ehird> The University of Turku is an internationally acknowledged, multidisciplinary scientific university located on the Southwest coast of Finland, in the vivid city of Turku. With its 18,000 students and 3,000 employees, it is the second largest university in Finland. Expertise within the University and its six faculties ranges from humanities to natural sciences. Read Rectors Greeting
19:25:50 <oklopol> but i didn't get it instantly
19:25:56 <ehird> as opposed to the fuzzy, blurry city.
19:26:02 <ehird> YOU KNOW THE TYPWE
19:27:08 <oklopol> also i wouldn't call it that vivid
19:27:37 <HackEgo> * graphic: evoking lifelike images within the mind; "pictorial poetry and prose"; "graphic accounts of battle"; "a lifelike portrait"; "a vivid ... \ * having the clarity and freshness of immediate experience; "a vivid recollection" \ * bright: having striking color; "bright dress"; "brilliant tapestries";
19:27:48 <GregorR-L> Yeah, that's what vivid means alright.
19:28:01 <HackEgo> * ashen: anemic looking from illness or emotion; "a face turned ashen"; "the invalid's blanched cheeks"; "tried to speak with bloodless lips"; "a ... \ * (of a light) imparting a deathlike luminosity; "livid lightning streaked the sky"; "a thousand flambeaux...turned all at once that deep gloom into a livid and
19:28:18 <ehird> a thousand flame bux
19:28:56 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:30:52 <GregorR-L> AnMaster_ipv6: It defines synonyms too. Just look past that.
19:31:49 <GregorR-L> Uh, no, ashen is roughly a synonym of livid.
19:32:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> furiously angry; "willful stupidity makes him absolutely livid"
19:32:53 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6 enjoys the finer subtleties of linguistics
19:32:59 <ehird> that's the definitoin of livid i've usually heard
19:33:01 <ehird> what AnMaster_ipv6 said
19:33:01 <oklopol> he's not fine with "roughly a synonym"
19:33:47 <GregorR-L> Anyway, "vivid" makes no sense for describing a city :P
19:34:02 <GregorR-L> A PAINTING of a city can be vivid.
19:34:07 <GregorR-L> Your MEMORY of a city can be vivid.
19:34:15 <GregorR-L> Hell, your PICTURES of a city can be vivid.
19:37:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> " YouTube & Google accounts have been linked successfully." <-- hey, since when could you do that?
19:38:20 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: a year.
19:40:01 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes, but why would you?
19:40:10 <ehird> youtube ARE totally owned by google.
19:40:15 <ehird> there's no reason to have it separate.
19:40:24 <Deewiant> I made the mistake of doing that and now I can't use my youtube account anymore (since I'd always have to log out before going to google, which I can't be bothered to)
19:40:35 <ehird> Deewiant: delink from your other account
19:40:37 <ehird> link it to the other one
19:40:48 <Deewiant> Eh, they can be delinked? I thought it said it was impossible
19:40:55 <ehird> It's in the preferences.
19:41:25 <ehird> Deewiant: AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.youtube.com/account#manage/status
19:41:32 <ehird> "Unlink YouTube and Google Accounts "
19:41:39 <ehird> Then just do the link business with the other account.
19:42:11 <Deewiant> Also, it's not about linking to any other account
19:42:17 <Deewiant> I don't want to be logged in to anything when I use google search
19:42:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> You are currently using 20MB (0%) of your 7347MB. <-- that (both of them) grew since I last looked
19:43:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> I remember seeing some "gmail as extra harddrive thingy"
19:43:39 <Deewiant> I wonder how I'm using 3 MB given that I have no mail there at all
19:43:53 <Deewiant> I doubt settings would take up that much space :-P
19:44:16 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: just email the files to yourself :P
19:44:21 <ehird> and assign the label Files
19:44:25 <ehird> bonus: searchability
19:44:41 <Deewiant> There is no mail there at all, it gets forwarded to the account I have with my ISP
19:44:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: just email the files to yourself :P <-- iirc that was how it worked
19:45:00 <ehird> yeah there is i think
19:45:15 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: would work for sensitive files too, BTW, just not as the only source for losable files
19:45:16 <Deewiant> gmailfs came out in 2005 or something
19:45:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: 'there was some libgmail or something for it' couldn't be made more idiomatic without a total restructuring but it's fine.
19:46:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, google have more computer resources than NSA. Why the heck should I trust my encryption
19:46:27 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: why are you using such untrustable encryption?
19:46:36 <ehird> unless you SERIOUSLY think google can break 2048-bit PGP
19:46:47 <ehird> in which case, get serious psychiatric aid immediately.
19:46:58 <ehird> Unless Google have a fucking dyson sphere I'm not aware of, NO.
19:47:22 <ehird> Meanwhile, AnMaster_ipv6 still thinks that bad jokes can substitute for arguments and leaves it at that.
19:47:39 <ehird> 19:46 AnMaster_ipv6: ehird, google have more computer resources than NSA. Why the heck should I trust my encryption
19:47:48 <ehird> 19:46 * Audience laughs
19:47:55 <ehird> Yes. Positively superb comedy.
19:47:59 <ehird> I laughed my ass off.
19:48:14 <ehird> By which I mean "no, I'm fairly certain that wasn't a joke originally".
19:48:31 <ehird> Maybe you should educate yourself on what a joke actually is………………………
19:49:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I read Ryan North's "jokes explained", and the explanations of it! ;P
19:59:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:00:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, what do you think about trivia sections on wikipedia? IIRC wikipedia themselves dislike it
20:00:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> but today I actually found what I wanted to know in such a trivia section
20:01:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_St._Martin_in_the_Fields '* The name of the orchestra was originally The Academy of St.-Martin-in-the-Fields. The hyphens were dropped in 1988.'
20:02:13 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: that could go in the history section.
20:02:23 <ehird> "Founded as blah..." "In 1988, they changed their name to..."
20:05:04 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:07:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> I'm considering getting the complete works of Mozart on CD
20:09:58 <ehird> That'd only take 70 years to listen to.
20:10:06 <ehird> On CD is pointless, though.
20:10:14 <ehird> You'd either have to rip them or really like swapping discs.
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20:22:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> unusual key colouring: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/FortepianoByMcNultyAfterWalter1805.jpg
20:23:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, image label says "Copy of a pianoforte from 1805."
20:23:44 <ehird> i'd like one just to look at it
20:24:34 <ehird> uhh, i have a theremin. i imagine 90% of the people who own one can play as well as me, so let's say yes
20:24:42 <ehird> (note: this does not imply i'm of any skill at all at it)
20:25:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theremin that?
20:25:24 <oklopol> well to tell you the truth i'm pretty tired
20:25:24 <oklopol> i did see a cat today though
20:25:37 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: bring your own steady hands.
20:25:41 <ehird> unless you're avant garde.
20:25:44 <ehird> oklopol: awesome cats.
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20:27:11 <oklopol> i'd like to learn to play the saw
20:27:18 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW0B1sipLBI&feature=channel_page and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJYho56INKU are cute.
20:27:43 <oklopol> GregorR: do you give any actual courses?
20:27:52 <fizzie> Wahh, I can't get a wide enough hat from LaTeX. The \widehat{...} using AMS fonts only grows to something like 5ex wide. With \usepackage{yhmath} I get a bit wider hat (though not wide enough), but as a side effect all sum and integral signs disappear from the dvips output .ps (but not the .dvi) file.
20:28:03 <ehird> fizzie: \gigantichat
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20:28:47 <fizzie> I tried \hugehat, but "! Undefined control sequence".
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20:29:02 <ehird> draw your own hat.
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20:30:49 <fizzie> It seems I will have to, but it's always so finicky. The good thing about \widehat is that it doesn't (for example) mess with the baselines of under-hat and outside-hat texts, like using a array-environment manual-hattery would.
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20:40:31 <oklopol> ehird: give me your theremin
20:42:13 <oklopol> also when are you going to send me that £20
20:45:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: What do you need to hat?
20:50:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's for that "\hat{f} is the Fourier transform of f" notation; our lecture material uses some Really Big Hats (TM) to denote Fourier transforms of more complicated things.
20:51:05 <Deewiant> Can you ask whoever made said material
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20:52:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's written with pen-and-paper, that doesn't really help. They're going to typeset it properly later, I guess. But you're right, maybe I could try to find some wide-hat example somewhere.
20:54:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW0B1sipLBI&feature=channel_page and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJYho56INKU are cute. <-- Zelda! :D
20:56:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, one hand gives the tone the other the beat basically?
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20:58:59 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd4jvtAr8JM&feature=fvw for a dude as weird as his instrument showing how it works.
20:59:41 <fizzie> Well, the "accents" package can stick any symbol as a fakey-accent in math mode, so I guess I just need to find a way to draw a suitable triangle.
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21:10:37 <fizzie> Yay, with \newsavebox{\customhata} and \begin{lrbox}{\customhata} \begin{picture} ... \end{picture} \end{lrbox} and then \accentset{\usebox{\customhata}}{...complicated expression...} I got a reasonable hat. It doesn't have the pretty "tapers off at the ends, thicker in the middle" shape the real hats have, since the picture environment is so awful for drawing, but it'll do.
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21:18:54 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: What you talking about, a theremin?
21:19:27 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: One hand is the tone, the other is the volume.
21:19:46 <pikhq> And they are awesome.
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21:25:22 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: It's radiotastic.
21:27:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> pikhq, how fast can you play on one? I mean, could you play a presto or even an allegro?
21:27:41 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: Depends on how fast you are.
21:28:28 <pikhq> Most people play a theremin legato. ;)
21:28:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> a skilled piano player could manage it, so could a skilled violinist iirc.
21:29:13 <GregorR> I believe that the problem with the Theremin is the Theremin, not the player.
21:29:47 * AnMaster_ipv6 is listening to " Academy of St. Martin-In-The-Fields - Eine kleine Nachtmusik KV525 Serenade in G major: 4. Rondo-Allegro"
21:30:13 <GregorR> Otherwise, somebody would be playin' some bitchin' Theremin.
21:33:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> mmm http://musicbrainz.org/track/137a39a5-7afa-43ce-94ad-12995f07c6c5.html
21:34:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Pachelbel's Canon is really wonderful. Don't you agree GregorR?
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21:34:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, true, it is popular. But it is still good.
21:34:36 <GregorR> To the point that every time I hear it all I can think is DUNN DUNN DUNN DUNN GOOD LORD STOP THIS DUNN DUNN DUNN DUNN WHY WON'T THIS END
21:35:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, I usually prefer less well known classical music. Kraus is a prime example of that.
21:35:12 <GregorR> Josef Suk's Fantastic Scherzo
21:35:24 <GregorR> "Fantastic Scherzo" is the name, I'm not just describing it :P
21:36:21 <GregorR> Hold, I'm checking if YouTube has it
21:36:39 <GregorR> Bleh, broken into two parts. That's lamesauce.
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21:38:12 <GregorR> I can't decide if you're being sarcastic :P
21:39:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, Leopold Mozart: Cassatio ex G, including the "Toy Symphony": Marche
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21:40:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> if you are interested I guess I could mess around with cdparanoia and give you a *.flac
21:41:03 <GregorR> Played live, on non-standard instruments.
21:41:11 <GregorR> At a concert in the park in Portland.
21:41:20 <GregorR> This is why Portland, OR > Europe :P
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21:41:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, wrong. The recording I have is from "Academy of St. Martin in the Fields", which is located in UK
21:42:21 <GregorR> That's not played live in the park I'll bet ;)
21:42:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, do you have a local chamber orchestra within 20 km of where you live btw?
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21:43:07 <GregorR> Yes. I live within blocks of the second largest concert hall in the US.
21:43:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, is that symphony orchestra or chamber orchestra?
21:43:53 <GregorR> There are assorted university orchestras :P
21:44:26 <GregorR> TBH I don't even know if there's a professional orchestra here.
21:44:54 <GregorR> And if the guys renovating the apartment of mine aren't nailing something into the floor, then they must just be hitting the floor with a fekking hammer for no reason.
21:45:06 <GregorR> I was MOSTLY kidding. I live in a college town :P
21:47:04 <GregorR> My download is pretty schweet btw.
21:47:09 <GregorR> But yeah, my upload is garbage.
21:47:38 <GregorR> Schweet-for-the-USA-anyway schweet?
21:47:44 <GregorR> Everything's slower in the US :P
21:47:57 <GregorR> I have cable, but it is wildly asymmetric, yes :P
21:48:33 <GregorR> That's what I was wondering.
21:48:59 <GregorR> I assume that 19.1MB is equal to 29933 cups.
21:49:05 <GregorR> `calc 29933 cups in liters
21:49:07 <HackEgo> 29 933 US cups = 7 081.79568 liters
21:49:21 <oerjan> everything's bigger in the US. given the light speed limit, it thus follows that everything must be slower.
21:49:21 <Gracenotes> AnMaster_ipv6: ah, well maybe you both do
21:49:25 <GregorR> So enjoy your 7,000 liters of music.
21:49:35 <GregorR> AnMaster_ipv6: Late romantic.
21:50:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, right, explains why it is nice. I can't stand most of Beethoven, but Grieg for example is fine.
21:50:34 <GregorR> So ironically, you /don't/ like classical music :P
21:50:46 <GregorR> Or do you prefer Mozart the son and Hayden?
21:50:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, I do like Hadyn a lot, Mozart is quite good too
21:51:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, also I said "most of Beethoven", meaning specifically his later works.
21:51:59 <GregorR> I would say that depends heavily on your definition of "most" :P
21:52:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> I also like baroque music, like Vivaldi. Don't really like Bach though... Too much organ.
21:52:05 <GregorR> I mostly prefer romantic-era to modern.
21:52:33 <GregorR> Where "modern" is defined as <1950, really X-D
21:54:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> Grieg? A bit sad a lot of his music has been "misused" in movies and such.
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21:54:29 <GregorR> As opposed to, oh, Bach's :P
21:54:40 <GregorR> Or Beethoven's, or Hayden's, or ...
21:54:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, I don't watch that type of movies I think
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21:55:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, listen to Peer Gynt in Norwegian. It is really worth it. At least if you understand enough of the language.
21:55:30 <GregorR> Well, I do speak Norwegian almost fluently.
21:55:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, I don't, but I speak Swedish fluently, and that is enough to mostly understand large parts of Norwegian.
21:56:09 <GregorR> I speak English, and it's MOSTLY the same.
21:56:51 <GregorR> Well, if I'm listening to it, then that's less important :P
21:57:08 <oerjan> what, you think _i_ have read peer gynt? *duck*
21:57:43 <oerjan> like probably 99% of norwegians, i only know the first verses :)
21:57:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> oerjan, not read. I haven't either. I meant listened to the opera.
21:58:58 <oerjan> "Peer, du lyver!" "Nei, jeg gjør ei!" "Ja så bann på det er sant!" "Hvorfor banne?" "Tvi, du tør ei! Alt i hop er tøv og tant!"
21:58:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> oerjan, at least you listened to the Peer Gynt suites I hope?!
21:59:20 <oerjan> obviously i have heard some of it
21:59:40 <oerjan> Hall of the mountain king and such
22:00:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> oerjan, skiing downwards == hate, skiing along flat ground == :)
22:02:28 <oerjan> cross-country skiing i also hate. no one ever managed to make me ski downwards to any significant degree :D
22:03:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> Gracenotes, lovely scherzo that. A bit long though. I prefer 4-6 minutes / movement
22:04:28 <GregorR> Hahah, well then I probably have nothing else to send you X-D
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22:05:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, basically I dislike having headphones for too long
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22:05:18 <GregorR> I choose to answer an enthusiastic "yes" with all conspicuous implications in place.
22:05:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> Gracenotes, I need to switch to my cheaper headphones for longer continuous stretches, less pressure on the head... But worse sound too.
22:06:19 <GregorR> I have ultracheapo headphones :P
22:06:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, I have ones where the manual specifies frequency range, and talks about how user serviceable the inside is.
22:07:16 <Gracenotes> one day you shall learn, AnMaster_ipv6-san
22:07:21 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: I hope they also have things like a replacable cord.
22:07:29 <GregorR> Bose had a commercial for headphones that came with a free MP3 player. This is how expensive Bose is.
22:07:32 <pikhq> (that tends to be the first to go with headphones)
22:08:04 <pikhq> GregorR: ... MP3 players these days are kinda cheap. ;)
22:08:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BshowUID%5D=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BbackPID%5D=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1
22:08:19 <GregorR> pikhq: Yeah, but they also come with ... FREE HEADPHONES :P
22:08:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Gracenotes> one day you shall learn, AnMaster_ipv6-san <-- "san"?
22:09:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, the issue is "Average pressure on ear acc. to IEC 60268-7 4.5 N"
22:10:18 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: Wow.
22:10:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> I suspect it is more due to me having a rather big head.
22:10:42 <fizzie> As long as we're comparing headphones, mine are rather closed too -- http://www.dansdata.com/hd280.htm -- so having them on for a multiple of hours is not very comfortable.
22:11:04 <pikhq> I've got el-cheapos, simply because I don't care that much.
22:11:21 <pikhq> (I only use headphones for my MP3 player; I tend to listen to most music with speakers)
22:11:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, pikhq, "Frequency response 5 - 30,000 Hz" more than make up for the pressure
22:11:45 <fizzie> I think I boughteded these when I lived in a noisy place, since they do silencify background noise a reasonable amount.
22:11:45 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: That's 10,000 Hz more than you need on the top.
22:11:52 <pikhq> On the bottom, though, that's impressive.
22:12:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> pikhq, correct. Beyerdyanmics sell ones that go up to 35000 Hz too. I didn't see the point.
22:12:25 <pikhq> AnMaster_ipv6: Dogs?
22:12:25 <GregorR> Lesse what the Boses do...
22:13:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> pikhq, I doubt they would market them as "Studio/Monitoring/Reference" then
22:13:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> pikhq, here for example http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BshowUID%5D=45&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BbackPID%5D=93&cHash=cb51219012
22:14:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> <GregorR> Enjoy your 5Hz buzz. <-- they are so good I can hear that on board VIA audio is worse than my old SB Live!
22:14:47 <GregorR> http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/headphones/audio_headphones/in_ear_headphones/index.jsp <-- Bose's earBUDs are $90
22:15:15 <fizzie> http://www.headphone.com/technical/product-measurements/build-a-graph.php lets you compare actual measured frequency responses instead of manufacturer hype; unfortunately they don't have every headphone model in existence.
22:16:34 <fizzie> Mine are there, because I think I bought them somewhat based on their review.
22:16:38 <ehird> 20:56 AnMaster_ipv6: ehird, one hand gives the tone the other the beat basically?
22:16:48 <ehird> 20:58 AnMaster_ipv6: ehird, rather different sound of it in those two?
22:16:51 <ehird> it has pitch knobs etc
22:17:13 <pikhq> ehird: BTW, nice job having a theremin.
22:17:17 <pikhq> Such a cool instrument.
22:17:34 <ehird> it is. It's also way, way harder than it looks.
22:17:48 <pikhq> It looks pretty fucking hard.
22:17:53 <ehird> 21:27 AnMaster_ipv6: pikhq, how fast can you play on one? I mean, could you play a presto or even an allegro?
22:17:55 <ehird> You can play anything.
22:18:03 <GregorR> OMFG, Bose has payment plans for earphones.
22:18:04 <ehird> Some people are really amazing at it.
22:18:18 <pikhq> ehird: The question is "what are the human limits on tempo?". ;)
22:18:33 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC72q7kkiPo&feature=channel here's the first classical i found on the theremin
22:18:42 <ehird> but also shows that it can sound really, well ,orchestral
22:18:53 <pikhq> GregorR: I believe it.
22:19:02 <GregorR> A single instrument that sounds like an orchestra? Incredible :P
22:19:30 <ehird> 21:37 AnMaster_ipv6: GregorR, 28.8 kbps? Nice upload speed you have.
22:19:34 <ehird> old modem download speed!
22:19:51 <GregorR> ehird: That's actually KBps, AnMaster_ipv6 just doesn't know how to specify :P
22:20:47 <ehird> 21:44 GregorR: And if the guys renovating the apartment of mine aren't nailing something into the floor, then they must just be hitting the floor with a fekking hammer for no reason.
22:20:51 <ehird> our neighbours do that a lot
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22:21:34 <GregorR> Do you notice how this professional has a reaaaaaally hard time keeping the pitch right? That's because the Theremin is a completely fekking impossible instrument to play :P
22:22:25 <ehird> 22:08 AnMaster_ipv6: <Gracenotes> one day you shall learn, AnMaster_ipv6-san <-- "san"?
22:22:31 <ehird> japanese honorific suffix
22:22:50 <ehird> -san is analogous to Mr.
22:23:11 <GregorR> ehird: ... Bose? No, to my knowledge Bose is not a scam, they actually make some of the best sound equipment in the world.
22:23:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_honorifics#San
22:23:39 <ehird> 22:11 AnMaster_ipv6: GregorR, pikhq, "Frequency response 5 - 30,000 Hz" more than make up for the pressure
22:23:44 <ehird> i'd prefer shitty music that doesn't hurt me.
22:23:44 <GregorR> AnMaster: Count yourself lucky.
22:23:46 <AnMaster> I lost power for half a second ehird
22:23:48 <GregorR> AnMaster: ehird's been logreading.
22:24:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, I also said "<fizzie> Mine are there, because I think I bought them somewhat based on their review." but that's maybe not the most important comment evar.
22:24:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd advise to check the logs for my reading; I answered questions you had.
22:25:20 <ehird> "The HD 280 Pro sells for about $US100 (versus less than $US70 for the worth-maybe-$US15 HD 270s)." ← Cheap :P
22:25:27 <ehird> I totally prefer speakers.
22:26:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I'm not pasting the answers to all your questions again.
22:26:23 <ehird> Will you explode if you look at the logfile for them or something?
22:26:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I prefer stuff not annoying other people
22:26:32 <AnMaster> otherwise I would also prefer speakers
22:26:48 <ehird> Hokay, just answer another question instead.
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22:26:52 <AnMaster> I know I'm annoyed by other people using speakers
22:27:08 <GregorR> I'm annoyed by other people using headphones too loud :P
22:27:18 <AnMaster> ehird, ouch that might happen AS WELL
22:27:18 <ehird> you asked for it, AnMaster
22:27:34 <ehird> 22:16 ehird: 20:58 AnMaster_ipv6: ehird, rather different sound of it in those two?
22:27:34 <ehird> 22:16 ehird: it has pitch knobs etc
22:27:35 <ehird> 22:16 ehird: brightnses
22:27:38 <ehird> 22:16 ehird: and the like
22:27:40 <ehird> 22:16 ehird: brightness
22:27:41 <ehird> 22:17 ehird: 21:27 AnMaster_ipv6: pikhq, how fast can you play on one? I mean, could you play a presto or even an allegro?
22:27:44 <ehird> 22:17 ehird: You can play anything.
22:27:47 <ehird> 22:18 ehird: Some people are really amazing at it.
22:27:49 <ehird> 22:18 ehird: AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC72q7kkiPo&feature=channel here's the first classical i found on the theremin
22:27:54 <ehird> 22:18 ehird: but also shows that it can sound really, well ,orchestral
22:27:56 <ehird> 22:22 ehird: 22:08 AnMaster_ipv6: <Gracenotes> one day you shall learn, AnMaster_ipv6-san <-- "san"?
22:28:00 <ehird> 22:22 ehird: japanese honorific suffix
22:28:01 <ehird> 22:22 ehird: -san is analogous to Mr.
22:28:03 <ehird> 22:23 ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_honorifics#San
22:28:05 <ehird> 22:23 ehird: 22:11 AnMaster_ipv6: GregorR, pikhq, "Frequency response 5 - 30,000 Hz" more than make up for the pressure
22:28:08 <ehird> 22:23 ehird: i'd prefer shitty music that doesn't hurt me.
22:29:03 <GregorR> I also mentioned that you should note that the Theremin...ist? is doing a pretty crummy job in that video, but it's totally not his fault since it's an impossible instrument.
22:29:09 <ehird> Remind me to never bother answering any questions you ask again.
22:29:40 <ehird> (Who knew that 17 lines is "tl;dr"?)
22:30:17 <ehird> It's hard to tell sometimes, but kay.
22:30:48 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-ywH1Vj8_U moar thererrereremin
22:30:53 <ehird> lemme find that raelly awesome one
22:31:07 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSzTPGlNa5U
22:31:14 <ehird> IIRC, considered one of the best theremin players.
22:31:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> 22:18 ehird: AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC72q7kkiPo&feature=channel here's the first classical i found on the theremin <-- nice... kind of
22:31:34 <ehird> yeah that one wasn't too goo
22:31:37 <ehird> i didn't listen before linking
22:31:57 <AnMaster> I never liked the original Meditation from Thaïs
22:32:09 <AnMaster> this rendation is actually nice...
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22:34:40 <AnMaster> ehird, 'Theremin - Clara Rockmore play "The Swan" (Saint-Saëns)' <-- you knew I liked that suite it is from?
22:35:06 * AnMaster is is still listening to the one before
22:35:26 <ehird> I wonder if there's any classical music with a real beat.
22:35:29 <ehird> I've never heard any.
22:36:27 <GregorR> I shudder to think what you mean by that.
22:36:34 <GregorR> However, I direct you to any of the trillions of classical marches.
22:36:38 <ehird> I wasn't making any subjective judgment.
22:36:40 <ehird> Also, true, marches.
22:36:43 <ehird> Apart from marches.
22:37:20 <fizzie> BL;ARG. From "*b*loody *l*ong; *a*in't a *r*eading *g*uy."
22:39:40 <ehird> FUCKYOU — For understanding cocks, know your own urethra.
22:40:31 <GregorR> What a useless piece of advice?
22:40:40 <ehird> Hey, it's perfectly true. FUCKYOU.
22:41:43 <GregorR> TSBLU: To See Blue Look Up. True when outside in the day and it's not overcast. Still not a useful statement.
22:43:05 <ehird> FUCKYOU; TSBLU is good advice too.
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00:49:32 <ehird> "One thing everybody agrees on: The banner ad is still dead." — suck.com, 2001-04-24
00:54:58 <pikhq> Oh, right, they had those, didn't they?
00:56:32 <pikhq> I'd like to note that Sarah Palin is freaking insane.
00:56:42 <pikhq> Or the world's greatest troll.
00:56:55 <pikhq> She's apparently intending to start a new conservative party.
00:58:29 <GregorR> What we need is a party for all the unimaginably stupid people to go into.
00:58:39 <ehird> Unfortunately, I don't think Ron Paul will join.
00:58:53 <ehird> No, he'll found his own, even more marginal party :)
00:58:57 <pikhq> ehird: Ron Paul definitely wouldn't. He's smarter than his fanboys. ;)
00:59:10 <ehird> pikhq: That's not saying much, though; he's batshit insane.
00:59:12 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait. So's Palin.
00:59:15 <GregorR> Two benefits to Palin's party: 1) The republican party is reduced to republicans, not republicans plus armies of morons. 2) These people will now identify and label themselves quite clearly.
00:59:31 <ehird> Don't go that far.
00:59:58 <pikhq> ehird: Her supporters think that she should be in office. Need I say more?
01:00:01 <ehird> I have been bugged by someone who can code Ruby semi-decently that supports Palin. Sure, doesn't take much, but that's further than Palin could ever get. :P
01:00:12 <ehird> Even she doesn't think that.
01:00:22 <ehird> "GregorR: Two benefits to Palin's party: 1) The republican party is reduced to republicans"
01:00:26 <ehird> I lol'd at your naïvety
01:00:58 <ehird> Similarly, the Democrats will soon become left-wing.
01:01:44 <ehird> …and will, by virtue of this, forevermore be a fringe party.
01:01:49 <pikhq> Lo, and they said: Let there be Kucinich. And there was Kucinich. And it was good.
01:01:54 <ehird> Instead, we'll have the two main parties:
01:02:06 <ehird> Republican Party for America, and the American Party of Republicans (Palin's).
01:02:29 <pikhq> If that happens, I can say but one thing: Nuke it from orbit.
01:02:29 <ehird> pikhq: Kucinich? Nice policies, not so nice "I will release the documents that will PROVE that the USA covered up a UFO landing in Roswell".
01:02:32 <pikhq> It's the only way to be sure.
01:02:43 <pikhq> ehird: ... He never said that.
01:03:04 <pikhq> Kucinich merely claimed that he had seen a UFO. Specifically, he saw something flying that he didn't know what it was.
01:03:17 <ehird> Oh, come on. You seriously think anyone would say "UFO" to mean that?
01:03:18 <pikhq> Don't be as dumbtarded as Palin supporters, please.
01:03:35 <ehird> That's just… that's so stupidly tenuous that I can't even believe it.
01:03:42 <pikhq> Anyone who's reasonable would, yes.
01:04:14 <pikhq> And you respond with a strawman claiming that he believes that the US covered up an alien landing in Roswell.
01:04:16 <ehird> GregorR: Please inform pikhq that he is saying that he thinks Kucinich saying "I saw a UFO!" meant "I saw an object that was flying and I did not identify it at the time".
01:04:18 <pikhq> That's Bushtarded.
01:04:19 <ehird> I am not sure he fully understands.
01:04:30 <pikhq> Fucking Bushtarded.
01:04:33 <ehird> pikhq: It was a year or two ago I read it, kay?
01:04:37 <ehird> My memory is not perfect.
01:04:42 <GregorR> ehird: I'm quite sure you don't fully understand.
01:05:03 <ehird> I hereby declare you to all be Fucking Nuts.
01:05:21 <pikhq> ehird: You're in a country that voted in nazis.
01:05:23 <ehird> Please cease this botanical intercourse.
01:05:25 <pikhq> You're not one to talk.
01:05:25 <GregorR> pikhq: People wonder why people hate the US so much. It's because they get the WEIRDEST impression of what's going on.
01:05:43 <ehird> pikhq: I don't support them, I didn't vote for them, I want them out, but I can't vote.
01:05:45 <ehird> My hands are clean.
01:06:00 <ehird> GregorR: Correction: People hate the US because you're all batshit insane.
01:06:08 <ehird> The miscommunication is a side issue.
01:06:15 <pikhq> ehird: And so're you.
01:06:18 <GregorR> ehird: Thank you for the proof of my point.
01:06:29 <ehird> Yes, I'm batshit insane. I don't run a country.
01:06:38 <ehird> GregorR: cuukoo! cuukoo!
01:06:44 <ehird> Bawak! Bawak! Ding dong, ding dong.
01:06:47 * ehird smashes alarm clock.
01:07:01 <GregorR> Dude, there's only one 'u' in 'cuckoo'. Also there's two 'c's.
01:07:22 <ehird> I was saying sounds, not words.
01:07:42 <GregorR> In that case, how is your 'uu' sound distinct from your 'oo' sound?
01:07:54 <GregorR> And what does this new word cuhckoo mean?
01:08:01 <ehird> Heyy, Google tasks is out of beta cool
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01:51:47 <Batmanifestdesti> I tried making a satanic programming language called LeVey, but it was too similar to C++
01:52:46 <GregorR> How about my previous idea for a CPU where literally every internal bit of the CPU is memory mapped, such that an operation can actually change what the CPU is doing midst that very operation. Pipelining for even more lawls
01:52:55 <pikhq> Needs to be more bizarre -- may I suggest more conjuring of spirits and invocations?
01:53:35 <pikhq> Also, I fail to see what that concept has to do with /LeVey/ Satanism. :P
01:54:14 <GregorR> Batmanifestdesti: I JUST got your nick. I would have gotten it earlier if it wasn't cut off.
01:54:16 <Batmanifestdesti> well....popo! is the common call for when police are coming to wreck a party/ritual ;)
01:55:22 <Batmanifestdesti> maybe I should change the name, since I'm making it more mystic than sticking it to the man
01:57:20 <pikhq> Indeed, it seems to have more to do with common European fantasy than with a vaguely animist religion centered in greed. ;p
01:58:04 <GregorR> (08:57:31 PM) brianrogers83: Imagine with Adam West's voice:
01:58:04 <GregorR> "Robin, we need to expand our country to both coasts. Fetch the bat-manifest destiny."
02:10:32 <Batmanifestdesti> tie up virgin! |m| tie up is the command to call over the standard library, in this case being virgin, the standard library |m|
02:10:34 <Batmanifestdesti> kill virgin! |m| this is the command to start the main program |m|
02:10:36 <Batmanifestdesti> open vial! |m| pops memory stacks from previous programs, just in case they didn't already. |m|
02:10:40 <Batmanifestdesti> pour blod in vial! |m| pushes the number input into the stack |m|
02:10:46 <Batmanifestdesti> mingle 2 fluids! |m| Adds the top 2 numbers of the stack, and puts the value into the top |m|
02:10:48 <Batmanifestdesti> chant incantations! |m| Displays the content at the top of the stack |m|
02:11:39 <pikhq> Not much in the way of semantics, but interesting syntax, at least.
02:15:30 <Batmanifestdesti> Something that would be awesome would be a programming language where the source is a sound file
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02:49:32 <oerjan> ah, another incomprehensibility
02:50:57 <GregorR> That's oerjan's response to most things.
02:51:31 * GregorR imagines oerjan walking up to a door with an unusual knob; "ah, another incomprehensibility"
02:51:49 <oerjan> wait, those actually _are_ question marks in the topic? devious.
02:52:15 <oerjan> GregorR: you know, that is depressingly close to accurate.
02:52:27 <GregorR> So long as you say it dramatically it's just awesomel.
02:52:39 <GregorR> Like, imagine that as said by Patrick Stewart.
02:52:39 <oerjan> maybe not in that particular kind of instance, but yet...
02:53:10 <Batmanifestdesti> I just came up with another language, this one I enjoyed making more :)
02:54:30 <pikhq> WARNING: NEW ESOLANGER. CRITICAL HASKELL DENSITY HAS BEEN LOST.
02:54:50 <pikhq> > (+2)<$>[0..10] -- RESTORING NOW
02:54:52 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
02:54:52 <lambdabot> mueval-core: NotAllowed "These modules...
02:55:15 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
02:55:17 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
02:55:40 <pikhq> oerjan: That is... Quite clever.
02:55:55 <oerjan> if that isn't dense haskell i don't know what is.
02:56:19 <pikhq> I'm afraid it looks too Lispy. Needs more $. :P
02:57:40 <oerjan> Batmanifestdesti: it creates an infinite list of primes, by abusing the nubBy function which is normally used to delete "equal elements" from a list
02:57:40 <pikhq> Batmanifestdesti: Why, it simply goes through the list of all numbers greater than two and removes the ones for which the greatest common denominator between it and anything previous in the list is greater than 1.
02:58:17 <oerjan> except it uses an "equal function" that is an obfuscated version of "has common factors"
02:58:49 <pikhq> That would be this:
02:58:59 <pikhq> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
02:59:00 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
02:59:28 <pikhq> > fix$(0:).scanl(+)1
02:59:29 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
03:00:21 <pikhq> More &? Are you a C-er?
03:00:21 <oerjan> & isn't very common in haskell alas, although && does mean "and"
03:00:31 <oerjan> and .&. is bitwise and
03:01:55 <Batmanifestdesti> hey, with low-level programming, you could make a compiler for your own language, and have it not go slow as heck/be a giant file when compiled
03:02:18 <pikhq> Or you could just do that in Haskell.
03:02:47 <pikhq> The high-level language we've been using.
03:03:03 <GregorR> Which is actually a low-level language ...
03:03:18 <GregorR> It's more statically typed than C++, that's for sure.
03:03:20 <oerjan> > (+2)<$>[0..10] -- why didn't this work?
03:03:21 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12]
03:03:31 <GregorR> oerjan: It appears that it did work.
03:03:42 <pikhq> oerjan: Clearly Lambdabot hates me.
03:03:42 <Batmanifestdesti> so far I've been using L.in.oleum more, as I like the mad scientist feeling it gives me
03:03:51 <pikhq> GregorR: Static typing does not make something low level.
03:04:05 <GregorR> pikhq: No, my "low level" statement was just silliness :P
03:04:22 <GregorR> But static typing does, in the case of Haskell, make it compilable to very fast code (as well as various other tweaks)
03:04:58 <pikhq> It also lets you pretend that state is a figment of the universe's imagination.
03:05:11 <GregorR> Batmanifestdesti: It's so not even remotely comparable.
03:05:17 <pikhq> Batmanifestdesti: That's not something C++ does, and that's not a good property to have in a language other than assembly.
03:05:59 <pikhq> What is this L.in.oleum?
03:07:16 <pikhq> GODDAMMIT INTERNET STOP BEING SO EFFING SLOW WITH THE FREAKING HTTP
03:07:56 <pikhq> I DEMAND MOAR PACKETS
03:08:17 <oerjan> that's an _evil_ use of frames :(
03:08:25 <sgeo> There are good uses?
03:08:28 <pikhq> I ACTUALLY DEMAND ANY PACKETS AT ALL
03:08:40 <pikhq> sgeo: Yes. They all predate CSS.
03:09:56 <pikhq> WHY IS MY BANDWIDTH PEAKING AT 1KBPS?
03:10:06 <pikhq> I AM YELLING A LOT
03:10:37 <sgeo> Who told me that Twisted included a way to communicate with Orbited servers?
03:11:06 <pikhq> Huh. Portable assembler.
03:11:28 <pikhq> Not bad. You should totally learn something highere level though.
03:12:19 <Batmanifestdesti> I became disillusoned with it when I realized that most Python programmers leave the hard work to the interpreter
03:12:29 <pikhq> Which languages have you used?
03:13:17 <Batmanifestdesti> ZZT-OOP, which is actually a scripting language, Java, and a bit of Python
03:13:35 <pikhq> Crap, crap, and not too bad.
03:14:05 <pikhq> Also, crap and A POX UPON ALL THAT IS RIGHT IN THE WORLD.
03:14:06 <oerjan> now you are just trying to freak pikhq out :D
03:15:12 <pikhq> Seriously, are you pulling up a list of all the *worst* languages and trying them?
03:15:18 <pikhq> I'm surprised you even tried Python. :P
03:16:30 <pikhq> How often did they break your brain?
03:16:50 <pikhq> Probably not often enough.
03:18:16 <pikhq> Needs more calculus. :P
03:22:05 <oerjan> <Batmanifestdesti> I tried making a satanic programming language called LeVey, but it was too similar to C++
03:22:34 <oerjan> is this the first time someone comes into the channel and we're not sure if he misunderstood the name or not? :D
03:22:35 <pikhq> oerjan: You know, now that you mention it...
03:22:50 <pikhq> I do believe it is. :P
03:23:09 <pikhq> C++ *is* a satanic programming language. I wonder if LeVey invented it.
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04:10:21 <pikhq> It deserves it, though.
04:14:58 <GregorR> Ooh, it's been a naughty satanism.
04:18:22 <augur_> whats this about S&M now
04:18:25 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
04:18:46 <GregorR> augur has "S&M" on highlight.
04:18:47 * augur is getting excited
04:19:12 <GregorR> I would be into S&M but I'm allergic to leather.
04:19:39 <GregorR> (^^^ nonsensicalliest sentence ever? I hope so, I'm entering it in the nonsensicalliest sentence ever competition!)
04:19:40 <augur> as if you nee to use leather.
04:20:44 <Slereah> Metal is cold and uncomfortable :(
04:20:51 <Slereah> Not that I'd... know anything about this
04:20:51 <GregorR> Batmanifestdesti: Can't be chrome. That's why I'm allergic to leather :P
04:22:16 <GregorR> And not the "ooh that's hot" kind.
04:22:29 <GregorR> More the "no, this is the definition of 'pussy' meaning 'covered in pus'" kind.
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04:27:33 <GregorR> What's terrifying is not that he uses emacs at all, but that he is actually presently using emacs to talk on this IRC channel.
04:29:29 <Batmanifestdesti> well yeah, but what programming language do you use or suck at?
04:29:53 <Slereah> I only use Plain English, the best language ever designed
04:30:51 <GregorR> Slereah: I find that statement amusing on so many levels :P
04:31:11 <Slereah> Plain English is our little joke.
04:31:22 <Batmanifestdesti> Slereah: you mean you don't love french, with it's verb sandwiches? XD
04:31:49 <Slereah> Batmanifestdesti : There is a programming language called Plain English
04:32:01 <Slereah> It's one of the worst language known to man
04:32:04 <Batmanifestdesti> I wish PROTOCOPTER would get finished already, so that someone could get off their fanny and make a real compiler for lolcode
04:37:38 <upyr[emacs]> I like fluxbox, but I am lazy to decorate it
04:40:06 <Batmanifestdesti> and for an undefined integer you must put that it's "OVER 9000!!!!!!!!"
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04:41:34 <upyr[emacs]> #esoteric> sorry, I do not understand. (I use google-translator :( )
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04:42:32 <zzo38> I managed to write a IRC client called PHIRC. It requires PuTTY to work, though.
04:42:46 <zzo38> But it does coloring and all sorts of other stuff too.
04:43:34 <zzo38> Senders are cyan, commands are bold white, parameters are white, text after a colon is bold blue. Control characters are reverse video magenta.
04:45:45 <zzo38> It also does automatic ping-pong.
04:46:12 <zzo38> Pushing space fills in PRIVMSG and the last channel used with PRIVMSG or JOIN command. However, it doesn't process redirects yet (I can add that to the next version).
04:47:08 <zzo38> Oops, although it wraps forward, it doesn't wrap backward to the previous line when chr(127) is sent
04:47:13 <zzo38> I wrote it iin PHP
04:48:05 <Batmanifestdesti> I should probably get to work some time on my Lino skills, so that I can make an interpreter for my programming language
04:48:21 <upyr[emacs]> zzo38: I think, "putty required" is not well for irc-crient. probably better to rewrite this part
04:49:02 -!- Slereah has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the words esoteric programming languages AT ALL TIMES | $BcfBd+qcfFd+scf@d+rcf@d+r(BBA[start].
04:49:22 <pikhq> Batmanifestdesti: Please, no more LOLCODE.
04:49:27 <pikhq> It was dumb then and it's dumb now.
04:49:44 <pikhq> Also, compilers and interpreters? Not as hard as you think.
04:50:03 <zzo38> It also has a few slash-commands. /C connects to a server and port, /Q quits (and closes PuTTY as well), /ECHO echoes a text to you.
04:50:23 * sgeo would be unable to write compilers, unless it's a compiler to a language like Python or C
04:50:34 <zzo38> The other slash command I will add is /WHOIS which acts like WHOIS but repeats the nickname
04:50:51 <pikhq> sgeo: C is a perfectly cromulent target language.
04:50:52 <Batmanifestdesti> I'm talking about an interpreter or compiler for my own esoteric language
04:51:08 <pikhq> Also, get some Brainfuck stat.
04:51:14 <zzo38> I used a command script to load both PuTTY and PHIRC at the same time (including loading the profile in PuTTY)
04:51:48 <sgeo> Try doing BF without the loops, for practice
04:52:17 <sgeo> Try reimplementing PSOX >.>
04:52:32 <Batmanifestdesti> That would be hard, considering I've never made in ainterpreter before >>
04:52:55 <sgeo> Batmanifestdesti, BF without loops? Very good practice for making interpreters
04:53:31 <zzo38> Are these all the possible channel prefix? !#%&+
04:54:14 <sgeo> Don't try reimplementing PSOX
04:54:31 <zzo38> Now I have to add proper line editing and history access and stuff
04:54:46 <sgeo> PSOX is unnecessary, there's already a good enough implementation that just needs a few fixes if it's actually wanted by anyone, and it was a pain to write
04:55:00 <sgeo> Where's ehird?
04:55:31 <zzo38> ehird is not online right now. Please leave a message after the beep.
04:56:18 <zzo38> PHIRC also masks the password with asterisks (and green) if you type the PASS command.
04:56:49 <zzo38> How can I make it wrap to the previous like when backspacing?
04:57:02 <pikhq> zzo38: According to the IRC spec at least.
04:57:56 <zzo38> Sorry I must have missed something. What's according to the IRC spec at least?
04:58:11 <pikhq> The channel prefixes.
04:58:37 <zzo38> O, so I did not miss any of these channel prefixes, that's good.
04:59:11 <zzo38> ! is a safe from takeovers, # is network channel, & is local channel, + is nobody can be operator, % is used in IRCX
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05:04:09 <sgeo> None of those work on Freenode
05:05:25 <sgeo> Why are you ducking when you point out an obvious stupidity on my part?
05:05:54 <oerjan> to avoid random violence
05:06:04 <oerjan> some people cannot take criticism
05:07:03 <oerjan> must...avoid...yogurt...like the plague
05:07:46 <sgeo> If I was the sort of person unable to take criticism, I would have invented a way to hurt ehird over TCP/IP by now >.>
05:17:39 <oerjan> not recently that i can recall
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06:54:08 <Batmanifestdesti> there should be piet forums for posting programs and stuff, that would be awesome :D
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07:05:25 <Batmanifestdesti> I'm assuming you're here because you like making your brain hurt?
07:13:53 <Batmanifestdesti> I emailed the guy who made Piet, Chef, Zombie and all that jazz, and asked if I could make a Piet forum!
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08:53:14 <oklokok> AnMaster_ipv6: oerjan, STOP BEING SO UN-NORWEGIAN! RIGHT NOW! <<< yeswegian
08:56:39 <oklokok> GregorR: Bose had a commercial for headphones that came with a free MP3 player. This is how expensive Bose is. <<< i thought you meant they had a commercial for headphones you could only get by getting a free mp3 player :D
08:56:52 <oklokok> so expensive they have commercials even for their free products.
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09:07:16 <oklokok> GregorR: What we need is a party for all the unimaginably stupid people to go into. <<< you do realize the more organized they are, the more they can accomplish
09:16:11 <oklokok> oerjan: GregorR: you know, that is depressingly close to accurate. <<< i was recently baffled by this door; turned out you needed to *push* it
09:16:31 <oklokok> i was like lol that was so algorithmically trivial, not worth solving
09:27:50 <oklokok> Batmanifestdesti: I became disillusoned with it when I realized that most Python programmers leave the hard work to the interpreter <<< the hard work? as in, the trivialities not worth thinking about :P
09:31:50 <oklokok> we need a name for people who think esolangs are about funny syntax
09:36:37 <oklokok> yay, only 40 minutes of logs
09:36:46 <oklokok> i'm definitely not doing this every morning :D
09:36:52 <oklokok> especially as you are all idiots
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11:39:42 <ehird> oklokok: about £200 for an ok one
11:42:20 <oklokok> so how's this, have the volume controls at your feet and a pitch control for both hands
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11:42:47 <oklokok> that would be a bit more ultimate i think.
11:43:38 <ehird> 02:12 Batmanifestdesti: I became disillusoned with it when I realized that most Python programmers leave the hard work to the interpreter
11:44:23 <ehird> 03:30 Batmanifestdesti: I use C++, Lino and LOLCODE
11:44:51 <ehird> 03:38 Batmanifestdesti: there should be a meme-based programming language
11:45:31 <oklokok> i'm guessing you might be able to come up with that term
11:45:35 <ehird> 03:50 Batmanifestdesti: though I do disagree with your opinion on it ;)
11:45:57 <ehird> 03:55 sgeo: Where's ehird?
11:46:34 <ehird> okay now i will logread oklokok's questions
11:46:42 <ehird> 11:41 oklokok: i want
11:46:42 <ehird> 11:41 oklokok: i would own at that
11:46:43 <ehird> 11:41 oklokok: it's trivial
11:46:46 <ehird> 11:42 oklokok: so how's this, have the volume controls at your feet and a pitch control for both hands
11:46:52 <ehird> it's actually not very trivial also that would be not needed.
11:47:12 <oklokok> i'm going to do it right after i've mastered the one pitch version
11:47:16 <ehird> 11:45 oklokok: what was that about?
11:47:22 <oklokok> i guess i should just buy both at once
11:47:25 <ehird> 11:46 oklokok: what was that
11:47:34 <ehird> oklokok: oh, you can get them?
11:47:52 <ehird> oklokok: imo the one pitch one volume is much better
11:47:57 <ehird> you can still do everything
11:48:00 <ehird> but it's less bloated.
11:48:11 <oklokok> how can you make two pitches with it
11:48:47 <ehird> oklokok: wavering very very quickly between them. this isn't hard because you need to have perfect steady hands to play it already.
11:48:53 <ehird> trust me, it sounds right.
11:49:00 <ehird> if you're trying to do 50 melodies at once, assemble an orchestra :D
11:49:28 <oklokok> not 50, but would be nice to have a separate bassline
11:49:34 <ehird> i have a theremin, you don't, I'm right
11:49:53 <oklokok> but you don't know anything about anything, didn't you hear me call you an idiot this morning
11:50:03 <oklokok> doesn't that kinda mean i win?
11:50:17 <oklokok> i mean i want that theremin
11:50:40 <oklokok> btw i even sucked at violin
11:50:44 <ehird> oklokok: i'll set up robotic hands for you so you can play the theremin over tcp ip.
11:50:48 <oklokok> couldn't even get a note out right away
11:51:26 <ehird> also, it's very doubtful you'll be able to play a theremin well. right off the bat you need totally steady hands and the ability to make very precise, subtle hand movements in real time. _then_, you need to learn how to actually get it to produce music.
11:52:57 <oklokok> it took me one attempt and about a minute to build my first card pyramid, which was 4 stories tall
11:53:08 <oklokok> but i have semisteady hands
11:53:36 <ehird> weiiiereireiriereirerierieriierieierierierr ← your projected theremin constant note
11:54:39 <ehird> oklokok: you can easily make "experimental" music with it though
11:54:42 <ehird> just throw things at it
11:55:20 <oklokok> have you actually given it any effort?
11:56:04 <ehird> i don't really give things effort
11:56:43 <ehird> my programming skills are entirely down to unconcentrated trickles of not giving effort
11:58:04 <oklokok> right, i'm more like you know ocd
12:00:44 <oklokok> i wish i wasn't in the middle of the woods
12:03:11 <ehird> but i look like a mess.
12:03:29 <ehird> anyway oklokok i went through a period of longing too.
12:03:43 <ehird> i can say this: it's not worth £200 unless you already know you're a virtuoso :D
12:05:17 <Deewiant> Just build one yourself if you want one
12:05:45 <ehird> Deewiant: uhh, no.
12:05:53 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
12:05:54 <ehird> it's not like a shitty toy instrument
12:06:04 <ehird> moog's theremins are beautiful
12:06:41 <Deewiant> ehird: You can get a good one later
12:06:48 <Deewiant> But if you just want to try it out, just make your own
12:06:49 <ehird> no, just buy one :P
12:07:00 <Deewiant> Well, whichever you consider easier
12:07:50 <ehird> oklokok: come back
12:08:00 <ehird> oklokok: i'm about to cost you inordinate amounts of money
12:08:01 <ehird> http://www.moogmusic.com/theremin/?section=product&product_id=110
12:08:13 <ehird> $1579 apparently they don't even make it any more, but it's fucking made of maplewood.
12:08:27 <ehird> well the electronics aren't.
12:08:32 <ehird> it just looks pretty.
12:09:11 <oklokok> Deewiant: building is too much work
12:09:24 <AnMaster> electronics made of maplewood would be fun
12:09:29 <oklokok> it's easier to find a job, do it for a while, and buy a theremin.
12:09:38 <AnMaster> wonder if you can add something to wood to make it conduct
12:11:20 <oklokok> i wonder what it'd look like if you melted wood into the form of a chair
12:11:38 <ehird> not much like a chair
12:11:45 <AnMaster> oklokok, what is the melting point of wood?
12:12:26 <AnMaster> I guess it would vary between (for example) teak and pine
12:12:37 <oklokok> i don't have a singlest idea.
12:12:52 <AnMaster> "<oklokok> i don't have the singlest idea."?
12:13:36 <ehird> wood doesn't melt...
12:13:36 <AnMaster> tons is for weight not temperature :P
12:13:36 <oklokok> not even the most single idea popped into my head.
12:13:48 <ehird> i think oklokok might know this
12:14:00 <ehird> http://www.international.inra.fr/press/like_metal_wood_can_melt_and_be_welded
12:14:04 <AnMaster> but what if you had an oxygen free chamber when you melt it
12:14:06 <ehird> just rely on pioneering international physics to do it
12:14:52 <ehird> the ig nobel prize is most often an excuse to laugh at science that is considered "weird".
12:15:07 <ehird> the discovery seems great to me, i doubt even they'd go that low
12:17:03 <oklokok> wtf, how is that a discovery
12:17:53 <oklokok> as if metal wood could be melted!
12:18:31 <AnMaster> oklokok, they cut out the comma
12:19:04 <ehird> I wish you would stop pointing out trivial details that are not lost on anyone in an attempt to "fix" someone's humorous misinterpretation, especially when it's intentional
12:19:07 <ehird> It's really annoying.
12:19:53 <oklokok> all people should have a thing
12:19:55 <ehird> oh, you had to say that, didn't you.
12:20:03 <ehird> AnMaster's problem is that he has 50 things and they all suck.
12:20:57 <ehird> See, now, that's not one of your things, AnMaster.
12:21:03 <ehird> You can't even claim that, so stfu.
12:21:34 <oklokok> that would've been the perfect spot to make the world's first your dad joke
12:21:53 <ehird> oklokok: AnMaster's cognitive abilities are far below that stage as of yet.
12:22:01 <ehird> We are currently hoping he does not think to self-improve.
12:22:06 <oklokok> see, at least he recognizes quality humor.
12:22:59 <oklokok> i can't translate that to human laughter
12:24:02 <ehird> Try comic laughter.
12:24:29 <ehird> http://www.longbets.org/266 ← Almost true! If only someone bet against it.
12:24:38 <ehird> (the 128 qubit chips work, they're just not sold yet)
12:25:08 <ehird> (I think the predictor works for the company making them)
12:25:25 <ehird> Dwave System's CTO is indicating 128 qubit sales soon
12:25:26 <ehird> POSTED BY brian wang ON MAR 20, 02009 AT 04:26PM
12:25:51 <ehird> 128 qubit chip. start using quantum encryption.
12:26:43 <ehird> oklokok: do you like large number porn? "Putting all of these qubits into superposition states — the initial Hamiltonian in the adiabatic algorithm — gives 2^128 ~ 3 x 10^38 simultaneously held states. Not quite the number of atoms in the earth, but close."
12:26:45 <oklokok> what can you do with that?
12:27:02 <ehird> 128 qubits is a ton
12:27:23 <ehird> oklokok: ofc you need it cooled to insanely near 0kelvin at the moment
12:27:31 <AnMaster> hm, not too long until you can't trust most encryption any more.
12:27:32 <ehird> but that may be inevitable.
12:27:36 <oklokok> can you actually utilize it that much
12:27:42 <ehird> AnMaster: that's hyperbolic.
12:27:57 <ehird> oklokok: what do you mean
12:28:03 <ehird> oklokok: it has 128 bonafide qubits
12:28:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you meant with that in this context.
12:28:24 <ehird> AnMaster: "encryption is dead!!!"
12:28:34 <ehird> oklokok: http://dwave.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/first-view-128-qubit-rainier-chip/, http://dwave.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/a-close-up-fully-wirebonded/, http://dwave.wordpress.com/2009/04/14/128-qubit-chip-mounted-on-io-system/
12:28:41 <oklokok> can you just use them as 128 nondeterministic choices in a program?
12:28:47 <ehird> oklokok: they're real quantum bits
12:28:52 <ehird> it's a real quantum computer
12:29:01 <AnMaster> ehird, rather "current encryption algorithms are soon dead"
12:29:02 <ehird> with 128 qubits just like any quantum computer would have
12:29:13 <ehird> AnMaster: hyperbolic. also, if they are, nothing can replace them.
12:29:28 <ehird> the only thing we could use is quantum encryption
12:29:41 <ehird> so we'd all have to buy ridiculously expensive systems constantly run at near 0-kelvin
12:30:02 <ehird> the CIA know everything about me anyway.
12:30:18 <ehird> i doubt if they wanted, say, your credit card number, they'd try and crack your gpg file with it :P
12:30:21 <AnMaster> there is always that quantum encryption thingy, but iirc that requires rather specialised hardware, like being able to send one photon at a time to the receiver. Which might be a bit non-trivial to say the least on current internet infrastructure.
12:30:33 <ehird> 12:29 ehird: the only thing we could use is quantum encryption
12:30:34 <ehird> 12:29 ehird: so we'd all have to buy ridiculously expensive systems constantly run at near 0-kelvin
12:30:38 <ehird> AnMaster: not special hardware.
12:30:38 <AnMaster> argh, lag, am I still connected?
12:30:41 <ehird> just a quantum computer.
12:31:13 <ehird> anyway, if you really think the NSA is breaking PGP with quantum computers, that has no practical effect, because there's nothing else you can do.
12:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't know that sort of quantum encryption needed 0 kelvin? Maybe you are referring to some other sort of quantum encryption?
12:32:20 <ehird> AnMaster: quantum COMPUTERS need near 0 kelvin
12:32:25 <ehird> cooling an object to 0K is impossible
12:32:28 <ehird> so they just run at 0.000000001K
12:32:48 <ehird> AnMaster: basically, if you have it any hotter, superconducting fails or something. also the environment fucks all the quantum-level stuff up.
12:32:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes of course I know you can't go to 0K... the line above was indeed slightly inaccurate due to missing one word
12:32:59 <ehird> maybe we'll have room temperature quantum computers someday
12:33:18 <ehird> but for now, if you want a quantum computer, you need a gigantic cooling system and a lot of patience for it to cool down
12:33:34 <ehird> i hate to think of the power requirements
12:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, this variant of quantum cryptography doesn't seem to need a quantum computer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB84
12:35:24 <ehird> "She then encodes these two strings as a string of n qubits,"
12:35:25 <AnMaster> it is just key distribution to create a secure one time key
12:35:29 <ehird> Either you're really dumb or didn't notice "qubit".
12:35:54 <AnMaster> "This protocol, known as BB84 after its inventors and year of publication, was originally described using photon polarization states to transmit the information. However, any two pairs of conjugate states can be used for the protocol, and many optical fibre based implementations described as BB84 use phase encoded states."
12:35:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cryptography#BB84_protocol:_Charles_H._Bennett_and_Gilles_Brassard_.281984.29
12:36:12 <ehird> Wow, you're fucking dumb.
12:36:17 <ehird> THAT'S JUST THE TRANSMISSION.
12:36:32 <ehird> QUBITS are what QUANTUM COMPUTERS are for.
12:37:33 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I know that, but I'm pretty sure I read about this being implemented and tested without a quantum computer. Let me find the book.
12:37:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, you can emulate qubits with a classical computer.
12:37:45 <ehird> Guess what that is?
12:41:19 <ehird> As in stop considering it AnMaster it's not happening slow.
12:41:54 <AnMaster> ehird, atm I'm reading about the details of that encryption scheme in the book to check up on some details, I will be back in a few minutes
12:42:14 <ehird> You cannot run that feasibly on a classical computer.
12:42:21 <ehird> You don't even want to think about the time complexity.
12:42:49 <AnMaster> ehird, where exactly in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cryptography#BB84_protocol:_Charles_H._Bennett_and_Gilles_Brassard_.281984.29 does it mention a qubit?
12:43:21 <ehird> you could play a drinking game with the amount of times it mentions "quantum"
12:43:50 <ehird> so are you an idiot because you don't understand the text one bit or an idiot because you didn't read it before linking?
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12:46:58 <AnMaster> ehird, It does mention quantum a lot yes. But not any qbits. If you read up on it, it seems all you need are: 1) some communication channel where you can transfer one photon at a time 2) Some way to polarize photons in one of 4 different directions (0°, 90°, 45° and 135°) 3) Some way to be able to detect if the photon is polarised in 0 or 90 and some way to detect if it is polarised in 45 or 135.
12:46:58 <AnMaster> 4) A way to switch between the two alternative detectors mentioned 5) A good random source
12:47:26 <AnMaster> what step in that key exchange requires a quantum computer.
12:47:43 <AnMaster> ehird, obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that, so please inform me.
12:48:21 <oklokok> if this was #math, "obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that" would be in #not-math's topic in about a minute
12:48:54 <AnMaster> oklokok, in this case it was sarcastic. Because I'm pretty sure ehird is wrong.
12:49:05 <ehird> you didn't even get it second time around
12:49:13 <AnMaster> btw, also see ISBN 91-1-300708-4
12:49:15 <oklokok> of course it was sarcastic, that wasn't the point
12:49:17 <ehird> got to agree with the expressed sentiment.
12:49:39 <fizzie> You could read the main BB84 article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB84 if you want to see the word "qubit" made explicit.
12:49:54 <ehird> fizzie: he linked that first
12:49:56 <ehird> but picked the other article
12:50:02 <ehird> because it fit what he thought in his warped mind
12:50:13 <ehird> that's the scientific method
12:50:23 <ehird> if the evidence contradicts your theory, find other evidence.
12:50:46 <oklokok> well clearly the first evidence was wrong
12:51:02 <oklokok> why would you be looking for evidence if you weren't sure your theory was right
12:51:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, I see it there, but the other description doesn't involve using a quantum computer as far as I can see.
12:51:23 -!- ehird has set topic: obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
12:52:12 <oklokok> tbh i was hoping you would do exactly that
12:55:31 -!- AnMaster has set topic: The topic must contain the words esoteric programming languages AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
12:55:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you keep forgetting that ^
12:56:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:56:16 <ehird> AnMaster: the last topic didn't contain them.
12:56:23 -!- ehird has set topic: obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
12:56:25 <ehird> go check if you want
12:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it did when I joined today
12:56:30 -!- oklokok has set topic: obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that the topic must contain the words esoteric programming languages AT ALL TIMES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
12:56:44 <AnMaster> * Topic for #esoteric is: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | The topic must contain the words esoteric programming languages AT ALL TIMES | $BcfBd+qcfFd+scf@d+rcf@d+r(BBA[start]
12:56:44 <AnMaster> * Topic for #esoteric set by Slereah at Wed Jul 15 05:49:01 2009
12:56:46 <ehird> hmm, someone changed it from konami code.
12:56:51 <ehird> it was konami code a few days ago
12:56:53 <ehird> so the rule has been broken
12:56:56 -!- ehird has set topic: obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
12:57:06 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong, when I joined it was there, as shown above
12:57:28 <ehird> guess what time it is?
12:57:41 <AnMaster> ehird, right, but what has that got to do with it? If it was broken before, why should it be broken again.
12:58:13 <ehird> because it wasn't in the topic at all time, and rules should be descriptive, not perscriptive.
12:58:29 <ehird> also, once it's been ousted out of the topic for a while it's not a rule any more
12:58:36 <ehird> otherwise we'd be playing by asiekierka's fuckfests
12:58:41 <ehird> of contradictory, pointless topic rules
12:58:45 <ehird> even though we removed them
13:00:17 <oerjan> <oklokok> AnMaster_ipv6: oerjan, STOP BEING SO UN-NORWEGIAN! RIGHT NOW! <<< yeswegian
13:00:23 <oerjan> as long as it isn't glaswegian
13:03:17 <oerjan> <ehird> DIE <-- i guess we should be glad you weren't on simultaneously
13:07:53 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oklokok, what is the melting point of wood? <-- afair wood without oxygen gives off gases and turns into charcoal when heated. now coal is essentially carbon, which doesn't melt either at standard pressure
13:08:23 <oklokok> so it just turns into gas?
13:08:35 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, if you have $70m to buy a next generation quantum computer (a lot of patience too, of course.), a lot of time to wait for it to cool, a lot of power, and know someone else with the same, and you network them quantumly, you can do quantum encryption
13:08:50 <oklokok> i would've suggested it, but i didn't remember the term for it
13:09:05 <oklokok> what's the other direction?
13:09:17 <oklokok> and i don't think it's related to härmistyminen in english.
13:09:24 <oerjan> except i'm not sure if charcoal is pure enough carbon to do that
13:09:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, the opinion of Schneier, Matt Weir, Robert R. Tucci and surely others is that quantum cryptography is totally useless.
13:09:46 <oerjan> no idea, assuming it's anything other than freezing
13:10:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I agree it is impractical
13:10:27 <oklokok> oerjan: are you suggesting it'd turn straight into plasma or something?
13:10:37 <ehird> AnMaster: EVEN if you could get it working, it would be pointless.
13:10:38 <fizzie> oklokok: Deposition, according to the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_transition
13:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? Because NSA isn't that interested? ;P
13:10:58 -!- FireFly has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:10:58 -!- Slereah has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
13:11:07 <fizzie> It's a rather more boring word than the Finnish one.
13:11:10 -!- Slereah has joined.
13:11:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Welp, you're an idiot.
13:11:16 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:11:18 <AnMaster> ehird, that was an attempt at a joke
13:11:31 <ehird> Jokes do not substitute for anything else.
13:11:45 <ehird> Your attempt to use it in a place where CoherentResponse was expected has crashed the universe.
13:12:20 <ehird> I was not trolling.
13:12:27 <ehird> Jokes do not substitute for actual coherency
13:12:33 <oerjan> ehird: i've been wondering, what if someone proved P=NP so thoroughly that all ordinary encryption gets broken instantly. would quantum encryption still be useful as a replacement?
13:12:58 <oerjan> (excepting one-time pads, of course)
13:13:06 <ehird> i think if you have p=np all encryption apart from one time pads is effectively hopeless
13:13:48 <oerjan> erm, not *that* evilly. *yet*
13:14:04 <AnMaster> oklokok, would he tell you if it was?
13:14:18 <oklokok> why not? we're good friends.
13:14:23 <ehird> p=np would be beautiful
13:14:29 <fizzie> "Aalso known as desublimation." Now that's evel more boring.
13:14:38 <ehird> oerjan: what's oklokok's name
13:15:25 <ehird> oklokok: hi aalso evel
13:16:16 <oklokok> actually that's almost an anagram of my name.
13:17:01 <ehird> oklokok: what's your initials
13:17:20 <ehird> firstname[0]+lastname[0]
13:17:39 <oklokok> i actually have firstnames in a list
13:17:52 <ehird> oklopol.firstname[0]+oklopol.lastname[0]
13:18:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:18:54 <fizzie> I would rather expect firstname[0]+lastname[0] to be the sum of the codepoint values of the first characters of oklopol's first and last names, instead of a two-character string.
13:19:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I was calculating the code points for mine, I interpreted it that way too
13:19:47 <ehird> >>> 'aalso'[0]+'evel'[0]
13:20:00 <ehird> as oklokok uses python for... well everything, it's obvious i intended it.
13:20:12 <oerjan> <ehird> I wish you would stop pointing out trivial details that are not lost on anyone in an attempt to "fix" someone's humorous misinterpretation, especially when it's intentional
13:20:14 <ehird> also, the sum gives more information, anyway
13:20:24 <ehird> oerjan: except that's not even remotely the same.
13:20:26 <oklokok> obviously summing characters means concatenation into a string
13:20:27 <oerjan> omg could AnMaster secretly be Joke_explainer?
13:20:32 <ehird> 13:18 fizzie: I would rather expect firstname[0]+lastname[0] to be the sum of the codepoint values of the first characters of oklopol's first and last names, instead of a two-character string.
13:20:36 <ehird> unless it was a really terrible one
13:20:48 <oklokok> that's the great thing about humans, they own at type inference.
13:20:48 <ehird> i ignored AnMaster as a matter of principle.
13:21:03 <ehird> oklokok: so what is it
13:21:48 <oklokok> oerjan: omg could AnMaster secretly be Joke_explainer? <<< at least he's mentioned jokes explained about a million times
13:21:54 <oklokok> maybe that was your reference anyway
13:22:04 <ehird> no i actually said that
13:22:23 <oerjan> 'twas a reddit reference, anyway
13:22:37 <ehird> <ehird> I wish you would stop pointing out trivial details that are not lost on anyone in an attempt to "fix" someone's humorous misinterpretation, especially when it's intentional
13:23:20 <oklokok> i was commenting on oerjan's comment
13:23:44 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/user/joke-explainer/ anyway
13:23:57 <oerjan> > (!0)<$>words"aalso evel"
13:23:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Arr.Array i e'
13:24:08 <oklokok> i think i'm having some sort of stroke here.
13:24:22 <oerjan> > (!!0)<$>words"aalso evel"
13:24:32 <oerjan> hm head is actually shorter
13:25:21 <oerjan> oklokok: er seriously?
13:25:42 <ehird> oklokok: is never serious.
13:25:48 <ehird> > head . words "aalso evel"
13:25:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> [a1]'
13:25:56 <ehird> > let (.) = fmap in head . words "aalso evel"
13:26:01 <oerjan> i bet he would be, if he got a stroke. well, possibly.
13:26:04 <ehird> confusing as shit that :D
13:26:11 <oklokok> not seriously, i just feel like i completely misunderstood something back there.
13:26:20 <oklokok> because i have no idea why ehird said what he did
13:26:49 <oerjan> oklokok: i was logreading
13:27:41 <oklokok> i just pointed out more evidence
13:27:50 <oerjan> also, you commented on it at the time O_o
13:28:39 <ehird> i thought you used it as an arugment
13:28:56 <ehird> 13:18 fizzie: I would rather expect firstname[0]+lastname[0] to be the sum of the codepoint values of the first characters of oklopol's first and last names, instead of a two-character string. 13:19 AnMaster: fizzie, I was calculating the code points for mine, I interpreted it that way too 13:19 ehird: it's python. 13:20 ehird: as oklokok uses python for... well everything, it's obvious i intended it. 13:20 oerjan: <ehird> I wish you would stop pointing
13:28:59 <ehird> out trivial details that are not lost on anyone in an attempt to "fix" someone's humorous misinterpretation, especially when it's intentional
13:29:02 <ehird> i wondered how you got out the quote so quickly
13:29:10 <ehird> well that makes more sense now
13:29:15 <ehird> i've never known oerjan as the argumentative type
13:29:26 <oklokok> oerjan: i commented on it, yes, but not to you
13:29:51 <oerjan> of course not, i was not there
13:30:05 <oerjan> if i had been, i would not be logreading it, would i?
13:30:11 <oklokok> oerjan is more "fuck, drama, get me outta here, i need to have my daily dosage of cod"
13:30:41 <oklokok> oerjan: i'm just saying i don't see what was weird about my comment.
13:30:41 <ehird> oerjan: to confirm: you did not mean it as an argument like in:
13:30:46 <ehird> 13:28 ehird: 13:18 fizzie: I would rather expect firstname[0]+lastname[0] to be the sum of the codepoint values of the first characters of oklopol's first and last names, instead of a two-character string. 13:19 AnMaster: fizzie, I was calculating the code points for mine, I interpreted it that way too 13:19 ehird: it's python. 13:20 ehird: as oklokok uses python for... well everything, it's obvious i intended it. 13:20 oerjan: <ehird> I wish you would s
13:30:51 <ehird> 13:28 ehird: out trivial details that are not lost on anyone in an attempt to "fix" someone's humorous misinterpretation, especially when it's intentional
13:31:01 <ehird> and thus my rebuttal of that being appropriate was wasted :D
13:31:09 <oklokok> no, he said why he quoted that right after
13:31:19 <ehird> i thought that was just a side thing
13:31:33 <oerjan> oklokok: i did not comment on your comment until you implied not remembering ehird's comment now
13:31:47 <ehird> oerjan: ANSWER MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
13:31:49 <oklokok> oerjan: true, i guess this has all been just a misunderstanding; or a stroke.
13:33:38 <oklokok> i should really just stick to math, communication simply doesn't work
13:34:31 <ehird> oerjan: ANSWER MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
13:34:43 <oerjan> ehird: IE has this bad habit of randomly including the newline or not when i copy from the logs.
13:34:45 <oklokok> yeah oerjan, answer right away, or what?
13:35:19 <oerjan> thus i don't always get to put the "<--" in
13:36:10 <ehird> 13:30 ehird: oerjan: to confirm: you did not mean it as an argument like in:
13:36:13 <ehird> 13:30 ehird: 13:28 ehird: 13:18 fizzie: I would rather expect firstname[0]+lastname[0] to be the sum of the codepoint values of the first characters of oklopol's first and last names, instead of a two-character string. 13:19 AnMaster: fizzie, I was calculating the code points for mine, I interpreted it that way too 13:19 ehird: it's python. 13:20 ehird: as oklokok uses python for... well everything, it's obvious i intended it. 13:20 oerjan: <ehird> I wis
13:36:18 <ehird> 13:30 ehird: top pointing
13:36:20 <ehird> 13:30 ehird: 13:28 ehird: out trivial details that are not lost on anyone in an attempt to "fix" someone's humorous misinterpretation, especially when it's intentional
13:36:25 <ehird> 13:31 ehird: and thus my rebuttal of that being appropriate was wasted :D
13:36:39 <oerjan> i can neither confirm nor deny that, since that would interfer with my plan to drive you crazy.
13:36:44 <ehird> lklajslksjflasdkjfasf
13:36:47 <ehird> OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN
13:36:49 <ehird> OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OER
13:36:52 <ehird> JAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN
13:36:57 <ehird> OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN
13:37:00 <ehird> I WILL MAKE A BOT TO BOTHER YOU 24/7
13:37:00 <oklokok> oerjan: please answer, it's an O(n^2) process
13:37:03 <ehird> jkdhjdkhksjdfAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGJ
13:37:45 <oerjan> oklokok: but but, my plan seems so close to success now!
13:37:48 <oklokok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
13:37:58 <ehird> oerjan: agu agu agu agu
13:38:09 <oklokok> oerjan: ARE YOU PREPARED TO TAKE THE SQUARE ROOT OF YOUR LIFETIME?
13:39:50 <oklokok> i wasn't being serious mister gloomy pants
13:40:30 <oklokok> iiiiiiiiiiiii wanna do something
13:40:40 <ehird> oklokok: buy a theremin
13:40:46 <ehird> only using one toe
13:42:26 <ehird> i'm not making a porno.
13:43:17 <oklokok> the theremin vid, i wanna hear how much you suck
13:43:28 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: hyperbolic. also, if they are, nothing can replace them. <-- hm, are there no public key algorithms _not_ based on unbreakable factorization or discrete logarithm?
13:43:51 <ehird> i think a quantum computer can break all the secure things we know
13:44:06 <oklokok> there's one based on knapsack afaik
13:44:50 <oerjan> i know it can factorize and do discrete logarithms, i recall it is _not_ known how to solve NP-complete problems with it
13:45:02 <ehird> you can solve them
13:45:09 <AnMaster> oklokok, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle-Hellman that one?
13:45:29 <oklokok> AnMaster: no idea, not even gonna check
13:45:50 <oerjan> we are talking breaking encryption here, obviously only tractable things count
13:46:10 <AnMaster> oklokok, wikipedia claims that it has been broken though
13:46:48 <oklokok> i know pretty much nothing about anything
13:46:56 <ehird> can quantum computers not do NP in NP or sth?
13:47:15 <oklokok> i'm not sure what thatm eans
13:48:39 <ehird> well you were saying like you can't do NP with quantum computers
13:48:41 <ehird> you can't do it in P sure
13:48:44 <ehird> but can't you do it in NP?
13:48:51 <ehird> like do you have to do it in evenslowerthannp or something
13:48:56 <ehird> 13:45 oklokok: subexponential
13:48:56 <ehird> 13:45 oklokok: superpolynomial
13:50:50 <oerjan> ehird: you'd think quantum P algorithms include ordinary P algorithm, so for one interpretation of NP it's sort of obvious
13:51:08 <oerjan> namely, just add guess inputs
13:51:10 <ehird> oh right everything's either P or NP
13:51:12 <ehird> ..................
13:51:15 <ehird> i'm fucking retarded
13:51:19 <ehird> oklokok: hit me on the head with a stick
13:51:50 <ehird> oklokok: oh right, some things are impossible
13:52:29 <oerjan> there are an infinite number of complexity classes above NP
13:53:18 <oerjan> oklokok: we make a good swat team
13:53:27 * AnMaster ponders putting "<ehird> i'm dumb today" in topic.
13:54:58 <oklokok> we should buy like a swat car
13:55:12 <ehird> forget the butler.
13:57:25 <oerjan> <ehird> QUBITS are what QUANTUM COMPUTERS are for. <-- that does not mean all uses of qubits require the most advanced system. quantum encryption doesn't need much computation, just generation of stuff, so 0 Kelvin may not be needed for all i know
13:57:36 <ehird> oerjan: it's not about power
13:57:50 <oerjan> it's about decoherence
13:57:54 <ehird> and superconductivity
13:58:08 <ehird> anyway you can emulate qubits ofc.
13:58:18 <ehird> oerjan: but all quantum computers are based on superconductivity
13:58:23 <ehird> and you need über lower temperatures for that
13:59:18 <oerjan> the point is things like the factorization algorithm is i think _insanely_ sensitive to noise because of the complexity, and quantum encryption is much simpler so might not need that low temperature, is my intuition. of course i don't really know this.
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13:59:34 <ehird> oerjan: that's just decoherence
13:59:37 <ehird> superconductivity is the thing
13:59:44 <ehird> it's not that we'd get messed up answers
13:59:50 <ehird> it just wouldn't run at higher temperatures
14:00:04 <oerjan> there is high-temperature superconductivity in case you didn't know
14:00:39 <ehird> oerjan: but is there a relatively high temperature where we both have a low risk of decoherence AND superconductivity?
14:00:41 <ehird> depends how high high is
14:00:46 <ehird> if really high, then decoherence would fuck shit up
14:00:47 <oerjan> i vaguely recall they got it up past CO2 level
14:01:06 <oerjan> in the latest discovery
14:02:09 <oerjan> ehird: well my point is that the temperature needed to prevent the decoherence part probably depends on how sensitive the use is, and i expect encryption to be much less sensitive than factorization
14:02:25 <ehird> yes, but if it needs to be really high it'll interfere with anything
14:03:21 <oklokok> i should take a course in the quantums
14:03:31 <oerjan> sure, but it's a long step from a millionth of a kelvin to a couple hundred of them
14:03:35 <ehird> too many special cases, oklokok
14:03:38 <ehird> it's not elegant enough :P
14:03:56 <ehird> oerjan: i suppose. even so, quantum computers are still really fucking hard
14:04:19 * oerjan should actually look up this for encryption
14:04:22 <ehird> oklokok: well, it's not very mathematically pure, the fundamental physics. it's just a jumble of crap that happens to work together without any underlying sort of unification
14:04:45 <ehird> it doesn't really describe the fundamental thing behind all these things, it just takes them as axioms, so to speak
14:04:49 <ehird> or at least, that's my impression
14:05:11 <ehird> wish I had $70mil to buy a d-wave
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14:06:48 <oerjan> hm the wp quantum cryptography article says nothing about cooling whatsoever
14:07:08 <ehird> that's a quantum computer issue, though
14:07:14 <ehird> not really related to the cryptography
14:13:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh dear jane goodall is a hoax O_O
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14:14:55 <ehird> I went WTF then thought "oh, IWC".
14:19:57 <GregorR> Intensified WHO Cooperation?
14:20:47 <GregorR> Damn that World Health Organization and their fairly arbitrary hoaxes involving naturalists ...
14:21:11 <ehird> Huh, andrew cooke is on lesswrong.
14:23:39 <ehird> i want to be a solipsist missionary when i grow up
14:24:00 <oklokok> so you just go around telling people they don't exist
14:24:08 <oerjan> clearly less wrong thinking needs to be well typed
14:24:38 <ehird> i go around telling people that _I_ don't exist
14:24:41 <ehird> and nor does anybody else but them
14:25:04 <ehird> i wonder if anyone's actually a reverse solipsist
14:25:06 <ehird> everyone exists but me
14:25:14 <ehird> that would be quite a hard belief to keep up :D
14:25:22 <oklokok> sometimes i think none of us exist
14:25:34 <oklokok> just kinda hard to imagine anything would exist
14:25:51 <ehird> oklokok: apart from your consciousness
14:25:54 <ehird> that's quite easy to existimagine
14:26:01 <ehird> you are conscious right :D
14:26:34 <oklokok> i guess i am, i don't see how that proves anything
14:26:44 <ehird> oklokok: also these people i tell that I don't exist and nor does anybody else but them, they don't exist
14:26:54 <ehird> i go around telling people who don't exist that I don't exist and nor does anybody else but them
14:27:52 <oerjan> you could take it one step further
14:28:19 <oerjan> you could go around and tell people only, say, Sarah Palin exists
14:28:57 <ehird> oerjan: that wouldn't make my beliefs inconsistent to what i preach to them, though
14:28:59 <ehird> which is the whole funny part
14:29:17 <GregorR> A solipsist to some arbitrary third party.
14:29:21 <GregorR> I don't exist, I'm his delusion.
14:29:43 <oklokok> oerjan: no, if he'd believe only sarah palin existed as well
14:29:44 <oerjan> i am assuming you don't believe only Sarah Palin exists. i might be going out on a limb here, i realize.
14:30:07 <oklokok> oerjan: he probably preaches what he believes
14:30:09 <GregorR> No, clearly only you exist.
14:30:38 <oklokok> well you are only delusion, obviously, this is irc
14:31:12 <ehird> oerjan: we're talking hypothetical of course
14:31:17 <ehird> saying "you don't exist, only sarah palin does" isn't the same as
14:31:26 <ehird> "You (who doesn't exist, only I do) exist, but nobody else does."
14:32:09 <oklokok> well. edit is tide backwards
14:32:35 <ehird> (diff) (hist) . . BitBitJump; 04:25 . . (+137) . . 203.5.217.3 (Talk) (Undo revision 14895 by Special:Contributions/Oerjan (User talk:Oerjan))
14:32:35 <ehird> (diff) (hist) . . BitBitJump; 02:57 . . (-137) . . Oerjan (Talk | contribs) (The description still makes no sense with infinite cell size, so cannot be Turing complete.)
14:32:38 <ehird> is two edits an edit war?
14:33:09 <oerjan> well when they revert ME, it is
14:34:07 * ehird makes a mental note never to revert oerjan's edits
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15:05:30 <oerjan> someone threw spam in the turing tarpit again
15:08:47 -!- GregorR has set topic: This topic intentionally left blank | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
15:08:54 -!- ehird has set topic: obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
15:09:06 <ehird> the topic rocks. obviously you're stupid who don't understand that
15:10:41 <oerjan> is "don't" grammatically correct there? i could see a language doing it both ways
15:11:22 <ehird> the whole sentence is grammatically incorrect, that's why it's funny
15:11:29 <ehird> "obviously I'm stupid who" ← wrong
15:11:32 <ehird> "who don't" ← wrong
15:11:52 <ehird> specifically, it's funny because it's sarcastically stating that he's stupid, but demonstrates stupidity.
15:11:57 * oerjan doesn't get why the first part is wrong
15:12:17 <oerjan> obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that
15:13:06 <ehird> "obviously I'm stupid", stupid is an adjective
15:13:23 <ehird> "obviously I'm stupid and" would work
15:13:28 <ehird> "obviously I'm a stupid person who" would also
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15:13:49 <oerjan> ah interesting. the corresponding norwegian is entirely correct.
15:14:08 <oerjan> but we don't require adjectives to be embellished to be used as simple nouns
15:14:11 <fizzie> Helloes. Seems that the box where my bouncer is died on me.
15:14:16 <fizzie> fungot: Are you still alive, though?
15:14:16 <fungot> fizzie: so then define adds a binding to that frame pointers for old frames will be freed. in c, fnord
15:14:39 <GregorR> It just needs a comma and a "doesn't"
15:14:49 <fizzie> "In C, fnord." Yes. Well, it's not the ISP's fault then.
15:15:22 <ehird> "obviously I'm Stupid Who; don't understand that?"
15:15:46 <GregorR> Yes ... that was a comma, "doesn't" and question mark.
15:25:29 <oklokok> oerjan: ah interesting. the corresponding norwegian is entirely correct. <<< same finnish too
15:25:39 <oklokok> well at least not entirely wrong
15:26:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi, was away. and I read iwc long before you said that today.
15:26:31 <ehird> Prolly same swedish then too.
15:26:47 <oklokok> GregorR: where would you put the comma?
15:26:48 <ehird> Heh. The random slogan I got on http://seaside.st/ is "This is not how the web works." Such snarky guys.
15:27:05 <GregorR> oklokok: Not below a dot, turning it into a semicolon :P
15:27:18 <oklokok> "obviously i'm stupid, who doesn't understand that"
15:27:52 <GregorR> obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that
15:27:58 <ehird> Obviously I'm stupid Who Don; T understand that?
15:28:41 * oklokok checks if he actually meant to say that.
15:29:34 <oklokok> AnMaster: ehird, obviously I'm stupid who don't understand that, so please inform me. <<< can't mean that in the context
15:29:42 <fizzie> Obviously I'm Stu. π/d, who don't understand that.
15:29:47 <ehird> i think GregorR was the joking
15:30:14 <ehird> Obviously I'm stew. PID who — don't understand that?
15:30:28 <AnMaster> is this the day of misunderstandments or what?
15:30:43 <ehird> Misunderstandments is quite unwordy.
15:30:44 <oklokok> i thought you said misunderstatements
15:30:45 <GregorR> AnMaster: obviously I'm misunderstanding who don't understand that
15:30:51 <fizzie> Don't you misunderestimate me.
15:31:34 <ehird> There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
15:32:32 <GregorR> WHO THE FUCK SCREWS THAT UP
15:33:03 <fizzie> The misunderestimating thing was.
15:33:13 <ehird> fizzie: mine was too.
15:33:27 <ehird> Someone should remix the Who song to have that.
15:34:33 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A
15:35:28 <oerjan> misunderestimate me once...
15:35:41 <ehird> We cannot handle that much stupid in one sentence.
15:35:50 <GregorR> STUPID FILTERS ON OVERLOAD
15:35:58 <ehird> I hypothesize that all the bushisms in one would destroy the universe just by existing.
15:36:20 <oerjan> ehird: we think so much alike, you and i
15:36:40 <oerjan> except for the bitching, that is.
15:37:49 <ehird> "Squeak Smalltalk and Cincom VisualWorks both provide distributed development tools similar to got or mercurial"
15:38:15 <GregorR> I was gonna git got, but I got git instead.
15:38:35 <oerjan> hm only one google hit for "misunderestimate me once"
15:38:55 <ehird> http://www.pharo-project.org/pictures/bc/ye4zb2kumqhtmjlkxg4opq1zk1y2rm/iphone-720.png ← THE DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT OF THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUTUUUUUUUUUREEEEEEEE
15:39:09 <oerjan> ehird: it wasn't quite a slow clap, then?
15:39:15 <ehird> oerjan: in quotes?
15:39:20 <ehird> if not in quotes isn't that a googlewhack?
15:39:30 <ehird> oerjan: "* ehird clap clap clap" sounds slow to me
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15:41:08 <oerjan> > fun.concat.iterate(' ':)$"clap" :: Expr
15:41:09 <lambdabot> clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap ...
15:41:56 <oerjan> those first spaces sort of ruined it
15:43:27 <oerjan> ehird: oh, in quotes yes
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15:43:44 <oklokok> ehird: so that vid we were discussing
15:43:56 <ehird> I'm just not ready for a career in porn.
15:44:00 <ehird> (I still find that funny)
15:44:13 <ehird> 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 planck times
15:44:17 <ehird> `wolfram 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 planck times in hours
15:44:21 <ehird> `wolfram 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 planck times in months
15:44:22 <oerjan> about 5 years i would guess
15:44:24 <ehird> `wolfram 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 planck times in years
15:44:27 <HackEgo> 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 planck times in months \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 20 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 Planck times to months \ Result: \ \ 4.103 1023 months \ Additional conversions: 30 \
15:44:31 <HackEgo> 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 planck times in hours \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 20 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 Planck times to hours \ Result: \ \ 2.995 1026 hours \ Additional conversions: 30 \ \ 1.078
15:44:46 <ehird> Fuck It I'll Use The Site.
15:45:08 <ehird> oerjan: well actually
15:45:16 <ehird> oerjan: it's 2.5 x 10^12 x universe age (1 universe age)
15:45:19 * ehird lols @ 1 universe age
15:45:37 <ehird> 3.419 x 10^19 millennia :D
15:45:48 <ehird> oerjan: 3.419 x 10^13 eons apparently
15:45:55 <ehird> > logBase 2 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:46:02 <ehird> 256 bits should be enough for anyone.
15:46:16 <ehird> it'll be done before the heat death of the universe
15:46:30 <oklokok> maybe even faster than that
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15:52:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, iirc there was some fingerprint containing some instruction like ? but that changed to one of ^v<> when an IP first executed it?
15:52:40 <AnMaster> However I can't find which fingerprint
15:53:18 <AnMaster> any idea of which it was? Or did I just imagine that existed?
15:54:01 <AnMaster> ah right. I just realised I need to add a note how that instruction works when ATHR is used
15:54:42 <Deewiant> Err, you sure you can't generalize it beyond mentioning a specific instruction like that
15:55:16 <Deewiant> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/TOYS.html
15:55:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, self-modifying instructions might get executed by more than one ip before the changes are visible to other threads?
15:55:51 <Deewiant> Any instructions that change Funge-Space, no?
15:56:07 <AnMaster> true, that is generalised already hm
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16:07:34 <ehird> i want continuations in all languages, dammit.
16:07:44 <ehird> i'd use haskell but it feels awkward to do such imperative things.
16:09:05 <pikhq> ehird: C++ LISTENS!
16:09:19 <ehird> pikhq: Closures are not continuations.
16:09:24 <ehird> Please stop confusing them.
16:09:37 <pikhq> It's not the concepts, it's the words, BTW.
16:09:51 <pikhq> I realise that they're different, I just keep on sticking the wrong words on them. ;)
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16:21:04 <ehird> 16:20 Lil`Cube: .:11:20:. CTCP PING reply from ehird: -262742.-55 seconds
16:22:04 <ehird> 16:21 Lil`Cube: .:11:21:. CTCP PING reply from Dylan: 2130784.703 seconds
16:32:43 <oerjan> those time traveling cubes are weird
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18:29:39 * pikhq hath new hard drive
18:29:52 <pikhq> Will do LVM fiddling post-work.
18:31:55 <oklokok> but with closures, you can do cps, not needing explicit continuations
18:32:45 <pikhq> Indeed. It's not a great way of doing it, but it works.
18:33:42 <oklokok> i'm going to watch tv now :o
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19:22:27 <sgeo> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-3226-07-29
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20:08:58 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I realise that they're different, I just keep on sticking the wrong words on them. ;) <-- same as me yeah
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20:50:30 <oklokok> you two do realize both have kinda descriptive names.
20:56:00 <oklokok> anyway, have you heard about this theremin thing
20:56:27 <AnMaster> there was lots of talk about theremins yesterday
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21:22:38 <ehird> http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/7-15-09/DoneHam.jpg
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21:51:34 <ehird> > let foop (x:xs) = x : last xs : foop (take (length xs - 1) xs) in foop "abcdefg"
21:51:36 <lambdabot> "agbfced* Exception: Prelude.last: empty list
21:51:44 <ehird> > let foop [] = []; foop (x:xs) = x : last xs : foop (take (length xs - 1) xs) in foop "abcdefg"
21:51:45 <lambdabot> "agbfced* Exception: Prelude.last: empty list
21:51:51 <ehird> > let foop [] = []; foop [x] = [x]; foop (x:xs) = x : last xs : foop (take (length xs - 1) xs) in foop "abcdefg"
21:55:44 <fizzie> Though I think this was done already.
21:59:54 <fizzie> (Okay, so I cheated a tiny tiny little miniscule bit by temporarily altering the unscramblation definition.)
22:06:24 <AnMaster> why did it say "<fungot> Too much entropy. :/" there then?
22:06:25 <fungot> AnMaster: maybe like this: a=0, b=1, a=b+a, fnord, fnord
22:06:59 <ehird> 21:59 fizzie: (Okay, so I cheated a tiny tiny little miniscule bit by temporarily altering the unscramblation definition.)
22:07:28 <ehird> Don't you hate it when I logread and reply before reading on?
22:07:31 <ehird> Hyyyyyyyyyyyyyyypocrite.
22:07:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just trying to demonstrate to you why other people are irritated by it.
22:08:12 <AnMaster> thus I didn't read it all at once this time
22:08:14 <ehird> Reeeeeeeeeeeeetcoooooooooooooooon.
22:08:28 <AnMaster> ehird, you are free to believe what you want. *shrug*
22:10:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, that's what I said to you after faking the Tanasinn page screensh— er.
22:11:09 <ehird> (Hey, you did half-believe that it might be scrambling pages or not based on the IP at the end.)
22:11:37 <AnMaster> ehird, actually mostly half-agreed to that just to end the argument, being tired of you.
22:11:51 * ehird signs. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetcoooooon.
22:12:01 <AnMaster> ehird, Note that I wasn't sure.
22:12:18 <ehird> Yes, but I strung you on for quite a while and made you doubt something.
22:12:28 <ehird> Therefore, successful troll is successful.
22:12:40 <AnMaster> ehird, we all know you are a troll
22:13:26 <ehird> I think you can only say that with an overly general definition of troll.
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22:36:11 <AnMaster> Hm if you need integer arithmetics, and only have normal integer division/reminder/multiplication and so on, what is the best way to implement a division that rounds upwards instead of downwards.
22:36:27 <AnMaster> I can't use floating point due to precision issues.
22:38:46 <AnMaster> something like (C syntax, ignoring overflow): a = x / y; b = x % y; if (b == 0) return a; else return a+1; ?
22:39:01 <AnMaster> only need to work for non-negative numbers btw
22:40:13 <pikhq> For GNU C, just that.
22:40:23 <pikhq> (standard C is not guaranteed to round up or down)
22:40:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm not actually implementing in C. just used C for clarity.
22:41:13 <pikhq> Sorry, that's C90. C99 guarantees it rounds towards 0.
22:42:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, for integer arithmetics?
22:42:57 <AnMaster> I knew it was a bit unclear for floating point, but for integer arithmetics too?!
22:43:18 <pikhq> Implementation-defined = fun.
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22:58:07 <zzo38> I have now written the BlooP/FlooP basic functions in Suxesol, to show that successor function is all that is necessary to implement these
23:01:34 -!- zzo38 has set topic: obviously I'm understand who don't stupid that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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23:05:04 <fizzie> For reasonable x, y, you can just (x+y-1)/y. With the standard truncating division that works. For k*y you get (k*y+y-1)/y = k (since the (y-1)/y part is 0) and for k*y+1 it's (k*y+1+y-1)/y = ((k+1)*y)/y = k+1.
23:05:50 <fizzie> And obviously (k*y+n)/y rounds up to k+1 for any n in the [1, y] range.
23:15:31 <fizzie> And FWIW, at least the C89 draft at least specifices the truncating division. "When integers are divided and the division is inexact, if both operands are positive the result of the / operator is the largest integer less than the algebraic quotient --". What is implementation-defined is what happens when there are negative numbers, which you said you don't care about.
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23:36:05 <AnMaster> "<fizzie> For reasonable x, y" <-- when you are back, what do you define as "reasonable" here?
23:37:23 <AnMaster> all I know is that x and y are both positive integers. Which one is largest is unknown, but it is quite possible to have 5 / 1000000 or similar.
23:37:34 <AnMaster> in case that was what you meant as "unreasonable"
23:41:54 <ehird> y=0 is unreasonable, I assume.
23:43:04 <GregorR> He said "positive", not non-negative.
23:43:19 <ehird> And also negative.
23:44:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, The way I heard it matches what you said.
23:44:13 <AnMaster> that is, 0 being neither positive or negative
23:44:22 <GregorR> ehird: Wikipedia says "0 is neither positive nor negative."
23:45:05 <ehird> your mom is a butt.
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00:36:52 <ehird> You really are a LOLCoder at heart.
00:36:56 <ehird> That's the dumbest idea I've heard today.
00:36:58 <ehird> And I hear a lot of dumb ideas.
00:37:15 <Batmanifestdesti> it's a lot like photobucket, only the pictures are programs! :D
00:37:40 <ehird> (a) forums suck, (b) the potential userbase is about 3 people, (c) "general discussion"? fuckin' serious? why does everything have a useless forum? (d) that analogy is as bad as xkcd's tvtropes/rickrolling one.
00:37:45 <ehird> Get off my lawn. Damn kids.
00:38:04 <ehird> Oops, I just broke your rule #1.
00:38:11 <ehird> (Either once or twice depending on how you define swearing...)
00:38:42 <ehird> Batmanifestdesti: they rarely conduct information and are mostly vents for useless crap. ok, so is IRC, but it's realtime, where such crap is expected
00:39:23 <ehird> 11. No demeaning other ideas/beliefs/religions: If you're a televangelist that wants everyone to be saved, then that's jolly for you, but don't go around telling people that they're going to burn in the fiery pits just because that are a Muslim, or Australian, or something else. This rule is related to flaming. Please don't confuse this with "don't post about anything related to your religion or lack thereof," because sometimes these conversations can be
00:39:25 <ehird> fun and enlightening, all that this means is that if John or Jane Doe mentions that they're Mormon, don't send angry posts demanding to know why they joined that "devil church."
00:39:29 <ehird> i can totally see people evangelizing on forums about Piet.
00:39:46 <ehird> [if I'm offending you, take comfort in the fact that I'm the grumpiest person in here.]
00:40:13 <Batmanifestdesti> on a forum about DOOM modding, a guy demanded to know why mormons, muslims, and buddhists existed
00:40:54 <ehird> Because God made them in his image!
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00:41:03 <ehird> God has some serious cognitive dissonance goin' on.
00:41:10 <Batmanifestdesti> which just goes to show you that religious or ideological discrimination happens everywhere
00:41:35 <ehird> What about me? I wantonly bash every religious ideology that exists.
00:41:39 <ehird> Is it okay if I'm fair and balanced?
00:42:00 <ehird> I wasn't replying.
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04:47:49 <augur> hello Batmanifestdesti
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05:32:53 * Sgeo tried Omegle once
05:32:58 <Sgeo> Wish there was a way to get back in touch
05:33:06 <Sgeo> I don't like losing touch with people, ever
05:33:09 <Sgeo> Batmanifestdesti, o.O
06:32:26 <CESSMASTER> i once tried copy and pasting one omegle conversation to another, as some sort of omegle eavesdropping thing
06:32:39 <CESSMASTER> took them about 3 minutes to start cybering
06:49:40 <fizziew> AnMaster: Yes, y=0 is indeed unreasonable; I think it should work (at least) for any x >= 0, y >= 1. Though you get overflowy problems if that (x+y-1) happens to be over your max-value, which won't happen for the divide-modulo-if thing.
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07:40:10 <AnMaster> fizziew, overflow may be a real issue here.
07:40:23 <AnMaster> so I'm sticking to the variant I decided on.
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09:06:06 <Warrigal> Went on Omegle. The first guy I met was a Jewish guy in Israel; he told me about his experiences in the army and stuff like that.
09:06:16 <Warrigal> It appears that we talked for over an hour.
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09:37:49 <fizzie> Incidentally, even the "a = x/y; b = x%y; return b ? a+1 : a;" you can write as "a = x/y; b = x-a*y; return b ? a+1 : a;" which has one division (well, modulo) switched to multiplication. Though of course optimizations; GCC 4.3 at least seems to be clever enough to get both the x/y and x%y from the same idiv opcode when optimizing. (It even does something extra-clever there.)
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09:43:08 <AnMaster> why do some (all?) TFT monitors "buzz" with a high pitch when the brightness setting isn't at 100?
09:44:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, except as I said I was using C syntax just for clarity. It is a lot simpler than trying to ask it in befunge syntax :P
09:45:52 <AnMaster> even if you know befunge, not everyone do in the channel. Asking in a more "mainstream" language syntax when the question isn't directly related to the esolang in question seems to work best IME.
09:46:32 <fizzie> Oh. Though in that case the time spent in the additional "-" operation and moving the IP around and instruction-fetching might eat any speed gains you could concievably get by changing a / into a *.
09:47:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, the fact that it is befunge is bound to slow it down (unless you start working on jitfunge again! ;P)
09:48:12 <fizzie> Ngh. Not before the things-with-deadlines are over, at least.
09:48:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, so around the age of 65 then? ;P
09:49:57 <fizzie> Maybe after I've gotten that master's thesis done. (So... Sep/Oct hopefully.)
09:50:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you plan to do after that otherwise? Continue studying or getting a job?
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09:53:08 <fizzie> No clue, really. I think I'll at least apply for one of those graduate-school funding opportunities; I've sort of been promised employment here at the university if I get one of those places. Maybe otherwise too, but it's a bit unclear. The project from whose budget my salary is paid ends this year.
09:53:49 <fizzie> Of course a real job would pay real money, instead of the pittance we get here.
09:53:59 <fizzie> But then I'd have to do real work too. :p
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10:14:37 <coppro> holy crap I got digested
10:16:20 <Ilari> The buzz is caused by audio-frequcy-range chopped electrical signals being converted somehow to sounds.
10:17:23 <Ilari> Those signals also supply power so they are rather powerful.
10:22:05 <Ilari> Not the worst device design screwup I have heard about...
10:27:38 <Ilari> The mechanism that dimming is usually implemented is that power electronics are used to chop the power supply and then the signal is lowpass-filtered somewhere. Unfortunately, the signal-to-sound conversion can happen before lowpass filtering or the lowpass filtering might be less than perfect.
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10:51:52 <fizzie> Reasonably recent, then.
10:52:01 <coppro> is this the befunge with the stack stack?
10:52:07 <AnMaster> just missing a few revisions, including the CR correction bug.
10:52:15 <fizzie> What do you return for 4y in bzr-built things?
10:52:25 <AnMaster> s/correction bug/bug correction/
10:52:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, same, I have been too lazy to set up something in the build system to automatically find revision
10:54:50 <fizzie> Did you have a '93 compatibility mode in cfunge, or was that just efunge or something else?
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10:55:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, only in cfunge, but I never claimed it was very good. It only alters the semantics for spaces in strings.
10:55:51 <AnMaster> doesn't make instructions not in 93 reflect.
10:56:03 <AnMaster> and I'm probably going to drop that mode.
10:57:45 <AnMaster> hm what is the best way to get 2^31-1 in befunge?
10:57:50 <fizzie> Well, I don't think the 93 spec defined anything for undefined ops.
10:58:20 <fizzie> Put it in the playfield and use ...g for it, that's the shortest thing.
10:58:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, right, but this is a one-time use so...
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10:59:41 <fizzie> !befunge98 88*::*:**:1-+
10:59:44 <coppro> AnMaster: looking at the efunge code right now, I see you match [_|_] a lot - is that to avoid empty lists?
10:59:57 <fizzie> !befunge98 88*::*:**:1-+.a,@
11:00:11 <fizzie> I don't claim it's the shortest one, though.
11:00:13 <AnMaster> coppro, in what specific place?
11:00:48 <AnMaster> coppro, Ah yes indeed, That is after all user provided data, better make sure it is reasonable :P
11:01:10 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(n284*1-R1-.a,@
11:01:14 * coppro starts poking around efunge, which has to be better-coded than his horrible Erlang messes
11:01:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, core instructions only :)
11:01:45 <AnMaster> coppro, I was learning erlang as I coded it. So some parts are pretty bad
11:02:00 <AnMaster> some of that code I wouldn't write today
11:02:00 <coppro> well, you have -specs on yours, for starters
11:02:19 <coppro> I was learning Erlang too, and I haven't actually gotten back to it.
11:02:21 <AnMaster> coppro, yes, because I always preferred detecting bugs before I run the app.
11:03:38 <AnMaster> and if that isn't possible, at least catch them early on. Which might explain some matches like {_X,_Y} = Coord
11:04:02 <coppro> oh, yeah, that's where I'm looking
11:04:07 <coppro> should be more specific
11:04:11 <coppro> wondering what that is for
11:04:53 <fizzie> Oh, and if you can assume ASCII, you can trivially replace the 88* with '@ to save one character...
11:05:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: I hates you! I had written that much and then you ruined it.
11:05:23 <Deewiant> Oh, I didn't even notice your solution earlier
11:05:54 <fizzie> I use :1-+ instead of that 2*1- but it's otherwise pretty close.
11:05:55 <Deewiant> Well, at least I'm being a bit more different in that I do 2*1- instead of :1-+
11:06:18 <fizzie> Stop being such a thought-vampire.
11:07:09 <Deewiant> If you don't mind using a bit of nontextual data you can do '<256>
11:07:14 <Deewiant> But I guess you do so I won't bother
11:07:56 <fizzie> Also <256> is tricky if you only have a non-locale-aware [0, 255]-bytes-as-input thing.
11:07:58 <AnMaster> coppro, ah yes it is for fingerprint semantics stacks
11:08:06 <fizzie> A "thompire" sounds like one of those block-like things that drop from the ceiling and squish Mario, except edgier.
11:08:11 <AnMaster> which is when you do like "PXIF"4(
11:08:45 <Deewiant> '<255>1+ might be better though, not sure
11:08:48 <AnMaster> actually my input needs to be valid utf-8 as well as ASCII
11:09:05 <AnMaster> so I'll go for '@::*:**2*1-.a,@
11:09:05 <fizzie> Well, the '@ is rather nice.
11:09:13 <fizzie> Certainly it's more interesting than a silly 88*.
11:10:01 <fizzie> The :/* sequence in 8:*::*:**:1-+ is aesthetically pleasing, though.
11:11:28 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "@@@@@@"+****1-.a,@
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11:12:19 <AnMaster> coppro, did that explanation help? I'm afraid you have to know funge-98 to understand fingerprints.
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11:14:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that seems a bit strange to me
11:14:15 <AnMaster> !befunge98 '~2+:::::******.a,@
11:14:17 <AnMaster> !befunge98 '~2+:::::::::::******.a,@
11:15:37 <fizzie> If you want a differently shaped version, you can use
11:15:56 <fizzie> It runs that :*: part both ways, which is always nice.
11:16:29 <Deewiant> (Not sure if it can be made nice though)
11:16:35 <fizzie> But 'v is a ugly number. Well, I guess I could try.
11:24:37 <fizzie> I don't think I can make a 118-based calculation very pretty. Though if you can enter the block using the v direction, you can do something like
11:25:33 <fizzie> Maybe for symmetricity the lower > should be a [ too.
11:27:54 <AnMaster> hm what is the smartest way in befunge to check that a possibly unsorted list on the stack contains exactly a given set of elements. For example the stack might have 5 7 3 9 7 7 and I want to check that there is exactly those elements on it, but ignoring order of them.
11:30:54 <Deewiant> for each element of list { for each element2 of set { if element == element2 goto Next } fail Next: } success
11:32:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Not sure how to translate that into befunge...
11:33:03 <Deewiant> Depends on how/where your list/set are stored
11:35:38 <Deewiant> > ;if no more list elems, success; ;get list elem; > ;if no more set elems, fail; ;get set elem; -#v_ ;same - jump to beginning of this line;
11:35:40 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `;'
11:35:53 <Deewiant> The v goes to get another set elem
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11:59:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the length of the list is known
11:59:16 <AnMaster> (sorry got a phone call so was away)
12:00:14 <AnMaster> basically I want to verify in a test suite for ATHR that a specific call to an instruction pushes a specific list on the stack, but where the ordering is unknown.
12:05:40 <AnMaster> somewhat like mycorand I think
12:08:50 <Deewiant> Just fill in the blanks (most of it)...
12:11:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect what I have in mind results in less code. Not sure though.
12:12:19 <fizzie> Though it doesn't work for the multiset case; if the list is (7, 7, 7) and the multiset contains (7, 8, 9) it will succeed. I'm not sure if that was the case with the question.
12:13:52 <AnMaster> 5 7 3 9 7 7 is ok, so is for example 3 5 9 7 7 7 or 7 9 3 7 5 7, but not 7 9 3 5 or 7 7 9 3 5
12:15:53 <Deewiant> Then just remove the element from the multiset whenever you find it
12:16:12 <AnMaster> my idea is to use j to create a jump table, then increment a counter in funge space for each hit, then after all elements are processed, check that the counters are correct.
12:18:23 <AnMaster> !befunge98 02-;<;j @,a.2 ;@,a.1
12:18:34 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
12:18:47 <AnMaster> !befunge98 01-;<;j @,a.2 ;@,a.1
12:18:51 <AnMaster> !befunge98 03-;<;j @,a.2 ;@,a.1
12:19:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that make any sense to you?
12:19:24 <AnMaster> (does mycology test negative arguments to j?)
12:19:56 <fizzie> Sure; unless you hit exactly that < character, you're going to hit one of the @s before outputting anything.
12:20:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, but shouldn't -2 to j hit the <
12:20:36 <fizzie> I guess it depends on where/when the delta is added. I don't remember the spec by heart.
12:21:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, "Negative values are legal arguments for j, such that 04-j@ is an infinite loop." is all the spec says
12:22:04 <fizzie> "If there is a 1 on the stack, j will work like # does." In this case it sort of makes sense that you need a -3 to hit the <, i.e. the next instruction is k*delta from the position after the j, not the j itself.
12:22:24 <AnMaster> (that differs with regards to wrapping yes)
12:22:34 <AnMaster> (in fact, j when wrapping is quite a headache
12:23:09 <EgoBot> FATAL: Out of memory at [/home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds/interps/cfunge/cfunge-src/src/stack.c:90]:
12:23:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're not actually printing that x, you know.
12:23:55 <Deewiant> !befunge98 ;@,,ax'<;06-j'ya,,@
12:24:55 <AnMaster> Asztal, using what interpreter?
12:25:12 <AnMaster> !befunge98 ;@,a,x'<;06-j'ya,,@
12:26:10 <AnMaster> anyway a program with exactly 04-j@ does not loop forever in cfunge *debugs*
12:26:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Mycology does test it.
12:26:39 <Asztal> AnMaster: it's called stinkhorn now. to be honest, it's not very good, but it should support j properly
12:26:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I get all GOOD in mycology
12:26:56 <Deewiant> Then you're doing something weird :-)
12:27:17 <Deewiant> !befunge98 ;@,a,x'<;06-j'y,a,@
12:27:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is related to wrapping
12:27:45 <Deewiant> There's no wrapping in that code
12:29:42 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm not quite sure what the jump table is for in that stack-multiset-element thing. If your elements are small integers (like what you'd think is the case if you're using a jump table there) then you could directly use them as x offsets to increment counters in the playfield, then compare the row-with-counters to another row which holds the desired multiset in that representation.
12:30:21 <fizzie> x-dimension offsets, for p/g.
12:32:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There is no wrapping in that code.
12:32:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure the test in mycology isn't buggy in some way?
12:33:47 <Deewiant> How would I know, haven't looked at it in months
12:34:05 <Deewiant> I doubt it, given that other interpreters are happy with it
12:34:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw: http://pastebin.ca/1496943
12:35:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and mycology says:
12:35:04 <AnMaster> GOOD: 04-j jumps backward the right number of cells
12:35:15 <ehird> 08:43 AnMaster: why do some (all?) TFT monitors "buzz" with a high pitch when the brightness setting isn't at 100?
12:35:16 <ehird> only low quality ones
12:35:34 <fizzie> Mycology's "04-j" test might not be at the left border of the file, though.
12:35:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Like said, you do something weird.
12:35:55 <ehird> 09:14 coppro: holy crap I got digested
12:35:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, as far as I understand j there crosses the border
12:36:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There is no wrapping in that code.
12:36:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 01-j for example would as far as I understand hit the - right?
12:36:46 <fizzie> No, it would hit the j itself.
12:36:53 <fizzie> Because "0jx" hits the x.
12:37:03 <AnMaster> that explains a bit of what is happening
12:38:07 <ehird> i had a dream where AnMaster was talking about how Kucinich personally tutored him or something.
12:38:38 <ehird> Dennis Kucinich, the only left-wing politician in America.
12:38:42 <ehird> (Modulo hyperbole.)
12:39:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the code for j is http://pastebin.ca/1496948 btw
12:39:31 <fizzie> You might get wrapping in "04-j" if you implement j so that when the IP is still at j you add that -4*delta, in which case you would go to the position one left of the 0, then rely on the normal +delta movement from there. And cared about the borders in the -4*delta part.
12:39:35 * AnMaster wonder what broke with wrapping
12:40:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, correct, the ip is moved forward normally after always.
12:41:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't match how other instructions work, if you move before actually executing the side effects of the instruction
12:41:39 <fizzie> Well, what does your ip_forward do when x=3, delta.x=-4, and the left border of the playfield is at x=0?
12:41:44 <Deewiant> The spec is explicit in this case, though.
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12:43:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm... Don't ask me such tricky questions. But when delta isn't cardinal, wrapping is implemented as the wrapping algorithm in the spec (that is, reverse ip, go on to other edge, reverse again)
12:47:17 <AnMaster> ok I changed behaviour, and now it gets into some infinite loop *sometimes* after "GOOD: z doesn't reflect", but not on all runs. Huh
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12:49:05 <fizzie> So... what I think happens there with "04-j@" is that when you call ip_forward with x=3, delta.x=-4, you'd be attempting to pass to the empty space and would do the backtrack-warping; setting delta.x=4 temporarily, and starting from x=3. Then you're already at the other edge (only whitespace from x=7 and so on) so you stop with the backtrack there. After that your j resets the delta to x=1, and execution proceeds to the @.
12:51:18 <AnMaster> but the new behaviour of failing sometimes is rather weird. Especially since ? hasn't been used at all by that point. Valgrind reports no issues either.
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13:17:37 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH6r2tIaRXU // needs hooking up to a visor
13:31:15 <ehird> to send to ais523 when he comes on: wikipedians are arguing over whether to include the public domain rorschach test images on the article ... because it would make it harder for psychologists to use them, or something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rorschach_test
13:32:05 <ehird> meanwhile, http://pouletvous.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/rorschach_inkblots.jpg
13:34:55 <ehird> not as though the test works any more than say, astrology :)
13:35:44 <ehird> http://truthsilo.com/stds/rorschach.htm
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13:40:13 <ehird> "mentioning more than four sex images in the ten plates is diagnostic of schizophrenia"
13:40:36 <fizzie> #scheme people had that bot which understood "later tell <nick> [some interesting things]", which would then say "<nick>: [some interesting things]" at the point when <nick> joined or next said something.
13:43:08 <ehird> lambdabot: tell ais523 wikipedians are arguing over whether to include the public domain rorschach test images on the article ... because it would make it harder for psychologists to use them, or something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rorschach_test
13:43:12 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
13:43:15 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
13:43:39 <ehird> @tell ais523 wikipedians are arguing over whether to include the public domain rorschach test images on the article ... because it would make it harder for psychologists to use them, or something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rorschach_test :not as though the test works any more than say, astrology :D not as though the test works any more than say, astrology...
13:44:42 <fizzie> So what's the "yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw" command from "quote" do?
13:44:54 <ehird> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
13:44:59 <ehird> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
13:45:01 <ehird> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
13:45:09 <ehird> Deewiant: looks to be running random haskell code to me
13:45:11 <ehird> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
13:45:13 <ehird> @help yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
13:45:20 <ehird> well, let's look at the source.
13:45:38 <ehird> "v" -> rand notoriousV
13:45:39 <ehird> "yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw"
13:45:39 <ehird> -> rand notoriousV
13:46:21 <ehird> someone decrypt http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/State/quote :P
13:46:35 <ehird> > let v = show v in v :: Maybe Char
13:46:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe GHC.Types.Char'
13:47:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm going to release a new cfunge version soon (today possibly). Since it only contains bug fixes and cfunge seems pretty mature now, I'm going to jump version to 1.0.0-pre1
13:47:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you have any good suggestion how to differentiate 1.0.0 and 1.0.0-pre1 in the version reported by y?
13:48:49 <AnMaster> ehird, um it is reported as a single integer joining the components
13:49:21 <Deewiant> Just call it 0.9.9 or something...
13:49:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, shouldn't it be 100 rather than 10000 ? for 1.0.0 anyway? I don't do more than three "normal" components. (and possibly -pre<n>, as I did for 0.2.1-pre2 for example)
13:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, the idea is that a newer version should have a higher number
13:50:21 <fizzie> I would probably go with 1.0.0 == 10000 too, and anything below that for pre-x. Since you're not doing a for-real-0.99.x series, maybe 9900+X for 1.0.0-preX.
13:50:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If you want 100 to be 1.0.0, then 1.0.0-pre1 will have to be <= 99 which doesn't make much sense to me
13:50:24 <ehird> AnMaster: that'll break 41.0
13:50:31 <ehird> so your version numbering sux anyway
13:50:55 <AnMaster> 1 cell containing the implementation's version number (env).
13:50:55 <AnMaster> If the version number contains points, they're stripped. v2.01 == 201, v1.03.05 = 10305, v1.5g = 1507. Don't use non-numbers in the version number to indicate 'personalizations' - change the handprint instead.
13:51:04 <ehird> AnMaster: it would break 4.1, though.
13:51:28 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean it would break 4.1.0 ? Ok I was wrong. 41.0 would be 41.0.0 thus 4100
13:53:57 <fizzie> If you're sure you don't end up with 1.0.10 at any point, you can do x.y.z => xyz; in that case you're probably going to have to use 91, 92, 93... for 1.0.0-pre1 and so on. Maybe that won't matter if you're not doing a 0.9.x series.
13:54:38 <fizzie> Alternatively just call the "1.0.0-pre1" 0.9.1 externally too.
13:55:02 <Deewiant> You can do x.y.z -> xyz anyway.
13:55:38 <Deewiant> You'll only be screwed if you then go to 200 for 2.0.0.
13:56:17 <fizzie> Well, yes, I guess so, but then the change from version -> "4y" conversion comes at a rather awkward does-not-show-much-of-forethough place.
13:57:47 <Deewiant> It doesn't matter since you can't possibly know for sure anyway
13:58:02 <Deewiant> Ostensibly you can hit 1.0.100, 1.0.1000, etc.
14:00:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could encode them like Gödel would have done.
14:00:34 <ehird> …thus showing that AnMaster doesn't understand what Gödel's paper was about.
14:01:09 <ehird> .....................................................................................
14:01:18 <Deewiant> An encoding which preserves a total ordering?
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14:01:26 <ehird> Ooh, you used the fancy ellipsis character too, even for >3 dots.
14:01:30 <ehird> I like that. I do that sometimes.
14:01:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that might be a problem though
14:06:18 <GregorR> I just noticed that it's compose-.-. for me :P
14:08:41 <fizzie> Is that even theoretically possible, to define a mapping from three integers (x, y, z) to one such that E(0, 0, x1) < E(0, 1, x2) for any x1, x2? It doesn't sound very likely, since given k=E(0,1,x2)-E(0,0,x1) you get E(0,0,x1+k+1) > E(0,1,x2) which is a contradiction.
14:10:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm... isn't two bignums enough storage for TC iirc? I think someone said it in here
14:10:08 <fizzie> Well, an injective function.
14:10:18 <GregorR> fizzie: You didn't say that :P
14:10:45 <fizzie> Sure you can store (x, y, z) in one integer (with the standard prime-exponent-thing for example) but that doesn't have that ordering property.
14:11:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, was that a reply to my last comment about two bignums?
14:12:00 <fizzie> Sort-of, yes. In the sense that you can encode an arbitrary sequence of integers as a single integer.
14:13:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, right, so if a language with two bignums is TC, then you obviously will have to be able to implement a bignum brainfuck in it (minus IO of course). That means several arbitrary ordered integers to encode in one number as far as I can see?
14:14:05 <AnMaster> s/arbitrary ordered integers/ordered arbitrary integers/
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14:15:17 <fizzie> Yes yes but you need the result of the encoding to have that particular property, that if, say, the second integer of first sequence is larger than the second integer of the second sequence, then the first encoding is larger than the second encoding no matter what the rest of the sequence is.
14:15:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah right, forgot that bit... hm
14:16:12 <fizzie> Which will not be possible, since there's only a finite amount of numbers between the two encodings, yet you need to stick a countably-infinite number of encodings between them.
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14:24:58 <fizzie> I think we had a Scheme exercise about pairs-as-integers, or maybe it's in SICP; (define (cons a b) (* (expt 3 a) (expt 2 b))) and (define (car p) (if (= (remainder p 3) 0) (+ 1 (car (/ p 3))) 0)) and similarly for cdr gives a working system, though the numbers get rather big.
14:25:02 <fizzie> I think it's in SICP, actually.
14:29:11 <fizzie> Yes, exercise 2.5. Big numbers: http://pastebin.com/m2bdcc079
14:30:06 <fizzie> I was barely able to make the list (1 2 1); the list (1 2 3) gave a heap overflow error.
14:34:44 <ehird> fizzie: does your university thng still use sicpi
14:35:17 <fizzie> Not really, except there's this special summer course about it.
14:35:27 <fizzie> http://www.cs.hut.fi/~scheme/course-description.html
14:35:54 <ehird> that sucks, i thought you said they still did
14:35:55 <fizzie> The mandatory programming-basics courses haven't used SICP since 2003 or so.
14:36:23 <fizzie> Well, they did when I did them, but that was the last time. Completely not related, of course.
14:39:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, why would anyone think it was related? It seems strange that you felt the urge to point it out... Hmmm ;P
14:39:41 <fizzie> It definitely wasn't the case that the negative-quality of the Scheme code I wrote made their heads implode.
14:40:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, So that event didn't affect their decision then?
14:40:48 <AnMaster> wait, misread it. My response doesn't work.
14:42:28 <ehird> fizzie: see if you said yes they do do sicp then i'd have made a bet for a million dollars* that i'd be there in 2013 and you still would be, growing moldy and crinkly :D
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14:42:56 <fizzie> I can retcon my answer to "yes" if you want, though that won't actually make them start use it.
14:44:32 <ehird> are you at all crinkly and/or moldy at the moment?
14:44:38 <ehird> i'm calculating my probability here
14:45:03 <fizzie> I think there's some mold growing in my pile of stuff on the table, yes.
14:45:11 <ehird> i... don't think that counts as "you"
14:46:44 <fizzie> I'm sure I can get some good mold going by 2013 if I just put in the effort.
14:47:07 <ehird> try really hard not to umm graduate or whatever you said you still haven't done a while ago.
14:47:21 <ehird> wait why would you try and lose a bet
14:47:22 <ehird> that makes no sense
14:48:13 <fizzie> It's not like graduating would necessarily get me out of here. In fact I'm not sure what it would take. Possibly some sort of an explosive charge.
14:52:11 <Pthingg> where is your endless money pit
14:53:30 <ehird> Pthingg: i think it costs money to live outside of a university too. :P
14:54:48 <fizzie> I work as a research assistant here at the university, so they're paying me for being here, chatting around on #esoteric. Well, maybe not exactly for that.
15:00:34 -!- oklopol has joined.
15:01:23 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
15:04:54 <fizzie> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>.[>[.>]<<[.<]>]!oklopol
15:04:54 <fungot> oklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkoklopolopolkokl ...
15:06:41 <oklopol> i couldn't deduce the algo from the output right away
15:06:51 <oklopol> i really think i'm getting stupider
15:08:12 <fizzie> How is it his fault, then?
15:08:38 <oklopol> he told me statistically speaking people get stupider with age.
15:11:49 <fizzie> If you hadn't heard it, you'd be getting smarter and smarter all the time?
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15:15:26 <ehird> fizzie: is that repeated scrambley
15:15:54 <fizzie> I don't remember scrambley; that's just a bouncy-bouncy.
15:16:02 <fizzie> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>.[>[.>]<<[.<]>]!12345
15:16:02 <fungot> 123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543 ...
15:16:39 <fizzie> I just read oklopol backwards and it sounded funny.
15:17:07 <oklopol> i just basically looked at it
15:17:23 <oklopol> i think it sounds rather boring
15:19:26 <ehird> ^bf >,[>,]+[-<[.<]>[.>]+]!12345
15:19:27 <fungot> 543211234554321123455432112345543211234554321123455432112345543211234554321123455432112345543211234554321123455432112345543211234554321123455432112345543211234554321123455432112345543211234554321123455432112 ...
15:19:31 -!- oklopol has changed nick to opolopololpokok.
15:19:49 <ehird> ^bf >,[>,]+[-[.<]>[.>]+]!12345
15:19:51 <fungot> 123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512 ...
15:20:00 <ehird> ^bf >,[>,]+[-<[.<]>>[.>]+]!12345
15:20:01 <fungot> 543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345543212345 ...
15:20:08 <ehird> ^bf >,[>,]+[-<<[.<]>>[.>]+]!12345
15:20:09 <fungot> 432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234543212345432123454321234 ...
15:21:11 <ehird> can't golf it shorter than fizzie
15:21:28 <ehird> pipe mine to tail +n
15:22:27 <ehird> fizzie: how does yours work? too lazy to read it
15:23:23 <fizzie> It's just (read to tape), (seek to beginning), loop: {(print forwards), (print backwards)} with a bit of extra <>.s here and there to avoid duplicately printing the ends.
15:23:52 <ehird> opolopololpokok: i can write bf but not read others' :D
15:24:24 <ehird> fizzie: yah my reversing the forward/backwards to get it to match fucked up my sentinels :D
15:24:27 <opolopololpokok> imperative languages are always so "extra <>:s here an there", god i hate them
15:24:42 -!- opolopololpokok has changed nick to oklopol.
15:24:52 <ehird> oklopol: but you'd do the analogue of that in haskell xD
15:25:05 <ehird> it's sort of unavoidable when you want to ignore shit
15:25:09 <oklopol> ehird: no worries, i pretty much learned to read other people's code at all last year.
15:25:47 <ehird> brainfuck has never been my forte tbh, i don't match well with a typeless tape of blobs
15:26:11 <oklopol> i'm speaking in general; also who said functional languages are any better
15:26:45 <ehird> oklopol: yah but some things suck less
15:26:54 <ehird> you have to optimize for minimum suck(x)
15:28:22 <oklopol> i need to clean some floors now.
15:29:23 <oklopol> it's my new job, my philosophy is, who cares if it's not the nicest job ever, as long as the money is okay
15:29:41 <oklopol> granted, the money sucks; but at least i got 50% correct
15:30:00 <oklopol> also i just wanted to make that joke, i'd never get a job i don't like.
15:30:22 <GregorR-L> OK, I'm gonna stab you in the jokehole now.
15:31:36 <oklopol> god, it's like you don't like being lied to.
15:31:46 <ehird> oklopol: you never meta-job you don't like
15:31:49 <GregorR-L> I just like stabbing people in jokeholes.
15:34:24 <oklopol> i dislike the whole idea of having a job, i want to do what the fuck i want, not something that's useful
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15:44:33 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: I'm don't that stupid who understand obviously | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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15:53:04 <oerjan> <ehird> Is it okay if I'm fair and balanced?
15:53:20 <oerjan> to be fair and balanced you have to do the same with atheism, dumbass
15:53:30 <ehird> atheism isn't a religious ideology.
15:54:06 <oerjan> that has nothing to do with how to be fair and balanced.
15:54:44 <oerjan> and if you bash creationists specifically, you need to balance it with some science bashing.
16:00:32 <oerjan> <fizzie> Is that even theoretically possible, to define a mapping from three integers (x, y, z) to one such that E(0, 0, x1) < E(0, 1, x2) for any x1, x2? It doesn't sound very likely, since given k=E(0,1,x2)-E(0,0,x1) you get E(0,0,x1+k+1) > E(0,1,x2) which is a contradiction.
16:00:53 <oerjan> i think that proof is faulty, but the result is true.
16:02:05 <oerjan> or wait. if they are _signed_ integers, then that is actually possible.
16:03:07 <oerjan> you can map all (0,0,x1) to something negative, all (0,1,x2) to something positive, with room to spare for the rest.
16:03:20 <oklopol> basically you need to find an integer both under and over which there's an infinite amount of ints
16:03:28 <oerjan> (btw injective was specified later)
16:03:36 <oklopol> trivially impossible for unsigned, trivially possible for signed
16:05:25 <oklopol> i was thinking switching to math for my master's maybe
16:07:03 <oerjan> iirc then you can actually get (x,y,z) -> w totally order preserving with rationals
16:07:16 <oerjan> and probably not with reals
16:08:16 <oerjan> i was wondering about that
16:08:37 <oerjan> it might be bijection, i don't see an immediate reason why not
16:08:49 <oklopol> i'll probably be a noob for the rest of my life
16:10:17 <ehird> oerjan: i said i was fair and balanced in my bashing of religious ideologies
16:10:49 <pikhq> You're like the KKK in that you're an equal-opportunity hater.
16:10:55 <ehird> <fizzie> Is that even theoretically possible, to define a mapping from three integers (x, y, z) to one such that E(0, 0, x1) < E(0, 1, x2) for any x1, x2? It doesn't sound very likely, since given k=E(0,1,x2)-E(0,0,x1) you get E(0,0,x1+k+1) > E(0,1,x2) which is a contradiction.
16:10:56 <oklopol> for (x,y) you could have x just mean [x-1..x], and then just do 1-1/y for the y part
16:10:57 <oerjan> ah yes whenever you choose the rational to map to you can pick the one with smallest denominator. this gives a bijection since Q x Q x Q has no isolated points
16:11:37 <oklopol> then you could do the same with 1-1/z for the rest of the interval
16:11:43 <ehird> pikhq: that's some broken analogy you got there... mister knights templar
16:11:52 <ehird> okay that was lame
16:12:09 <oerjan> oklopol: i am assuming we start with triples of _rationals_
16:12:09 <oklopol> oerjan: trying to preserve order too
16:12:11 <pikhq> ehird: I like my analogies broken. ^_^
16:12:22 <oklopol> i mean just trying to preserver order
16:12:28 <ehird> pikhq: your analogies are like broken analogies.
16:12:52 <oklopol> embedding base infinity integers into rationals
16:13:23 <ehird> > logBase Infinity 77
16:13:24 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Infinity'
16:13:29 <ehird> > logBase (1/0) 77
16:13:44 <ehird> > logBase (1/0) (1/0)
16:13:46 <oklopol> ehird: how haskell compares tuples.
16:13:50 <ehird> don't you mean "1"
16:14:00 <oerjan> oklopol: lexicographically
16:14:05 <ehird> oklopol: erm all members being equal
16:14:17 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
16:14:38 <ehird> oklopol: i mean (a,b) == (c,d) = a == b && c == d
16:14:54 <oerjan> > sort.join(liftM2(,))$[1..5]
16:14:56 <lambdabot> [(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(2,1),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(2,5),(3,1),(3,2),(3...
16:15:18 <ehird> peer review/on a pew.
16:15:20 <oklopol> lexicographic ordering is not "base infinity" ordering
16:15:31 <ehird> oklopol: whuzzagottadowithtuples
16:15:34 <oklopol> it is with tuples, because they are the same length
16:15:43 <ehird> oerjan: shouldn't log_infinity(infinity) be 1
16:16:20 <ehird> > map (join logBase) [1..]
16:16:21 <lambdabot> [NaN,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1....
16:16:23 <oklopol> oerjan: while haskell orders tuples lexicographically, lexicographical ordering isn't how base infinity ordering works
16:16:26 <ehird> oerjan: sure it should be!
16:16:29 <oerjan> if you do limits to infinity with different speeds on the two parts, you can get it to anything
16:16:46 <oklopol> because if you have (1,0) and (5), lexicographical says (5) is bigger
16:17:06 <oklopol> but base infinity says (1,0) is bigger
16:17:13 <oerjan> oklopol: haskell tuples of different length don't have the same type
16:17:30 <oerjan> although you are correct for lists
16:17:39 <ehird> what is this base infinity magic///
16:17:48 <oklopol> oerjan: that's why they are both an example of base infinity ordering and lexicographical ordering
16:18:09 * pikhq sees that, and treats it as a zen koan.
16:18:12 <oerjan> ehird: base ordinal omega, say
16:18:19 <oklopol> so yeah, bad example maybe, but your "lexicographically" comment made no sense.
16:18:23 <ehird> pikhq: yes / represents -
16:18:24 <ehird> :t \f xs -> do x <- xs; return (f x)
16:18:25 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) t b. (Monad m) => (t -> b) -> m t -> m b
16:18:31 <ehird> @hoogle (t -> b) -> m t -> m b
16:18:31 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable fmapDefault :: Traversable t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b
16:18:31 <lambdabot> Prelude fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
16:18:31 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<$>) :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
16:18:57 <ehird> :t \f xs -> do x <- xs; f x
16:18:58 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) t b. (Monad m) => (t -> m b) -> m t -> m b
16:19:06 <Deewiant> ?. pl undo \f xs -> do x <- xs; f x
16:19:11 <oklopol> ehird: oklopol: i mean (a,b) == (c,d) = a == b && c == d <<< talking about comparison, not equality
16:19:14 <ehird> whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
16:19:17 <oerjan> oklopol: btw the theorem on embedding into rationals works with any countable, totally ordered set
16:19:25 <ehird> that's only in the one
16:19:50 <oerjan> and if there are no points isolated from left or right, then i think it can be made a bijection
16:19:58 <Deewiant> sequence = foldr (liftM2 (:)) (return [])
16:20:03 <ehird> pikhq: i just wanted a mapM that worked on non-lists somehow :D
16:20:08 <oklopol> so what are isolated points?
16:20:37 <oklopol> also did you get my point about lexico vs base infinity?
16:20:45 <Deewiant> ?hoogle (a -> m b) -> n a -> m (n b)
16:20:46 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable traverse :: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
16:20:46 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable mapM :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)
16:20:46 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable for :: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t a -> (a -> f b) -> f (t b)
16:20:54 <ehird> Deewiant: that's not mapM, yo
16:21:00 <oklopol> you start from different directions
16:21:06 <ehird> that has a typeclass dependency
16:21:11 <ehird> i could do it with monad transforms
16:21:27 <oerjan> oklopol: if there is either no or a smallest point y to the right of a point x, then then x is isolated from the right
16:22:06 <Deewiant> > Data.Traversable.traverse Just [1,2,3]
16:23:55 <oklopol> but, what's the embedding?
16:24:12 <ehird> hmm what's the transformer class again?
16:24:13 <oklopol> oerjan: ah yes whenever you choose the rational to map to you can pick the one with smallest denominator. this gives a bijection since Q x Q x Q has no isolated points <<< i don't get this
16:24:19 <oerjan> ehird: Traversables are precisely those things that can be traversed like lists with applicatives
16:25:22 <oerjan> oklopol: you start with a (non-order preserving) bijection f from the natural numbers to Q x Q x Q
16:25:54 <oerjan> then you build a map from Q x Q x Q recursively
16:26:11 <oerjan> call that g : Q x Q x Q -> Q
16:26:20 <oerjan> g(f(0)) = 0, for a start
16:26:45 <ehird> (Monad m, MonadTrans t, Monad (t m)) => (a -> m b) -> t m a -> t m b
16:26:53 <ehird> (Monad m, MonadTrans t, Monad (t m)) => (a -> m a) -> t m a -> t m b
16:26:54 <ehird> (Monad m, MonadTrans t, Monad (t m)) => (a -> m a) -> t m a -> t m a
16:27:23 <oerjan> now for f(n), look at the nearest neighbors to f(n) among f(0)...f(n-1). say f(m) < f(n) < f(o)
16:28:11 <oerjan> then you define g(f(n)) to be the _simplest_ rational between g(f(m)) and g(f(o)) (either might not exist if f(n) is min or max so far
16:29:05 <oklopol> and that's a bijection because there are no isolated points?
16:29:35 <oerjan> this recursively puts everything in order. also if there were no isolated points then there is no way to miss a rational, since you will eventually use up all the simpler ones close to it
16:30:38 <oerjan> simpler means minimal (absolute value of) numerator _and_ denominator
16:31:50 <oklopol> i don't see why the no isolated points assumption is the crucial thing
16:31:56 <oerjan> (i'm not sure it "simple" is actually the right word)
16:31:57 <oklopol> not that i've given it thought
16:33:08 <oerjan> oklopol: say if there is no point between f(m) and f(n). then no matter what you map them to, you are going to miss all rationals between them. similar if there are global mins or maxes.
16:33:32 <oklopol> i mean it seems it's the simplicity ordering that does it
16:34:21 <oerjan> yes, that ensures you don't miss anything _assuming_ you always continue to put new things between all neighbors
16:34:37 <oerjan> and beyond the global min/max
16:39:02 <ehird> oklopol is just going to... eat butter?
16:40:13 <oklopol> well no but i assumed you can guess what i'm going to eat with it, as opposed to the other direction.
16:40:40 <oklopol> nah really it's a long story
16:43:32 <ehird> oklopol: eat the damn butter.
16:44:27 <oerjan> otoh you cannot fit more than countably many intervals into the reals, so mapping reals x reals order-preservingly to reals is impossible
16:45:39 <oerjan> (reason: every interval must contain a rational)
16:48:50 <fizzie> Right, the "given k=E(0,1,x2)-E(0,0,x1) you get E(0,0,x1+k+1) > E(0,1,x2)" thing relied on the fact that also E(0,0,x1) < E(0,0,x2) iff x1 < x2, in addition to the injectiveness. I didn't bother specifying the full set of demands for E.
16:49:15 <ehird> fizzie: did you really have to ask though
16:49:18 <ehird> i mean that's trivially impossible
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16:49:33 <ehird> it's the kind of thing i'd expect AnMaster to ask :P
16:49:37 <ehird> uh oh, now he'll go "?"
16:49:42 <fizzie> That's why "it doesn't sound very likely".
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16:50:02 <ehird> can pigs fly? it doesn't sound very likely :-P
16:50:13 <fizzie> Yes. I can imagine myself saying something like that.
16:50:46 <GregorR-L> ehird: Depends on how powerful the rocket is?
16:51:39 <pikhq> GregorR-L: How unimaginative.
16:51:52 <GregorR-L> ehird: Depends on how powerful the salad is?
16:51:55 <pikhq> Why do you not account for the case of a *jet engine* being strapped on, for example?
16:51:59 <AnMaster> right, I'm not surprised about that netsplit
16:52:01 <AnMaster> I saw part of it from the other side.
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16:55:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I looked in the log for today and I can't find the question that fizzie is supposed to have asked. Just some statements.
16:56:09 <AnMaster> so afraid I can neither confirm or deny if I would have asked said question
16:56:12 <ehird> we're answering ()
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16:58:47 <ehird> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/863786
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17:00:29 <AnMaster> ehird, heh? His firstname I assume?
17:01:41 <ehird> No, his last name.
17:04:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, :D at the sound clip on Darth&Droids today
17:05:18 <AnMaster> (I just read the comics today)
17:28:55 <GregorR-L> I should get my new waterproof cell phone watch with a better camera today whoot
17:31:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, would it be similar to a !, ? or ‽
17:31:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
17:31:48 <pikhq> Perhaps it could be a ¡ or a ¿
17:31:48 <ehird> w00t is just a silly 1337 version of woot.
17:31:54 <ehird> I've been wooting for wooting ages.
17:32:15 <GregorR-L> But this is all aside from the fact that I should get my new waterproof cell phone watch with a better camera today.
17:32:32 <AnMaster> though I know what woot means I decided to google define: it
17:32:35 <AnMaster> Common misspelling of hoot. Common misspelling of w00t. An exclamation of joy or excitement; I agree
17:32:49 <ehird> I don't give a woot, frankly.
17:32:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, and suggesting that "w00t" is the correct spelling...
17:33:17 <ehird> Uh, w00t? I don't give a hoot.
17:33:40 <AnMaster> bbl for a few hours. Going to driving lesson :)
17:33:56 <ehird> who wants to drive.
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18:04:36 <estoppel> oklofuk: i'ma make that theremin vid now
18:05:25 -!- oklofuk has changed nick to oklofok.
18:07:43 <oerjan> oklofok: it was inevitable, really. just be glad augur wasn't here.
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18:47:08 <estoppel> oklofok: what os are you using atm btw? and is your internet good enough to dl 23mb?
18:51:14 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "t"
18:51:38 <pikhq> @. hoogle type fmap
18:51:40 <lambdabot> --count=20 "forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
18:53:05 <estoppel> http://lesswrong.com/lw/12s/the_strangest_thing_an_ai_could_tell_you/xc5 ← this is awesome enough that i want it to be true
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18:55:50 <estoppel> i made a video of me repeatedly lunging a long, narrow part of my body at things, but only oklofok can see it.
18:56:32 <augur> slereah: obviously not
18:56:56 <augur> i was about to make that joke anyway
18:57:02 <augur> what with estoppel being 13 and all
18:57:06 <augur> but slereah, you know.
18:57:22 <oerjan> and he isn't even a straight man
18:57:50 <oerjan> i was referring to Slereah
18:58:37 <Slereah> <augur> but slereah, you know. < wot
18:59:12 <oerjan> augur is confusing you with his awesome syntax powers.
18:59:15 <augur> BUT SLEREAH, YOU KNOW, IS ALL OVER THAT 13 YEAR OLD COCK LIKE FASTER THAN I AN REPLY
18:59:51 * GregorR-L hands Slereah his "honorary NAMBLA member" jersey
19:01:16 <oerjan> hm my monitor has a bug
19:02:14 <estoppel> no oerjan. if your monitor displayed weird stuff that's a software or hardware bug
19:02:52 <oerjan> must be an AGI then, since it was capable of flying away
19:22:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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20:01:42 <Slereah> Have you read your SICP today?
20:05:31 <estoppel> [[Developer mode can be accessed from the launcher screen of the Pre by typing in the phrase "upupdowndownleftrightleftrightbastart" (the infamous Konami code).]
20:08:33 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
20:21:54 <AnMaster> estoppel / ehird: why that nick?
20:22:05 <estoppel> I've used it sporadically for ages.
20:22:25 <AnMaster> estoppel, I noticed it a few days ago. How do you pronounce it btw?
20:22:55 <oerjan> he's been estopped from using his real name, due to child protection laws
20:22:59 <estoppel> ĕ-stŏp'əl, says the conspicuously unsourced answers.com
20:23:12 <estoppel> ess toppel, where the e is eh not ee.
20:23:17 <oerjan> a sad and unreasonable story
20:23:30 <pikhq> estoppel: Don't do answers.com; use Wikipedia, it's principal source. ;p
20:23:39 <estoppel> pikhq: *its; and you are wrong.
20:23:45 <estoppel> Wikipedia is ONE OF the sources of answers.com.
20:23:47 <AnMaster> estoppel, is it supposed to mean anything?
20:23:56 <estoppel> AnMaster: justfuckinggoogleit.com
20:24:13 <oerjan> hey, wikipedia is a _tertiary_ source, iirc
20:24:18 <fizzie> (ɛ'stɒpəl) says the equally unsourced OED.
20:24:48 <fizzie> Or "({ope}{sm}st{rfa}p{schwa}l)" if I copy-paste directly.
20:25:07 <fizzie> They do IPA characters with tiny images.
20:25:23 <estoppel> You have an online OED accessthingy?
20:25:49 <fizzie> "Subscriber: Helsinki University of Technology"
20:26:33 <oerjan> "He worked for the Oxford English Dictionary from 1918, and is credited with having worked on a number of words starting with the letter W, including walrus, over which he struggled mightily." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien)
20:27:55 <fizzie> There's this thing where one can add ".libproxy.tkk.fi" at the end of the domain name, login using the Shibboleth single-sign-on thing, and get any library-subscribed content without having to fiddle with SSH tunnels or such curiosities.
20:27:59 <estoppel> fizzie: now i want to attend that university.
20:28:26 <fizzie> I would assume OED is a rather widely-subscribed thing.
20:28:34 <estoppel> AnMaster: did i mention i had a dream where you were talking about being tutored to personally by kucinich?
20:28:38 <augur> estoppel: Q? really?
20:28:55 <estoppel> that was not from a british site. :p
20:29:37 <oerjan> craziness happens easily to brittle minds
20:29:39 <augur> which is expected; british english has Q.
20:30:09 <augur> EstQp@l <--- there
20:30:44 <fizzie> But I said (ɛ'stɒpəl), the ɒ is "latin small letter turned alpha", aka low back rounded vowel; not a q.
20:31:16 <augur> Q is sampa for turned a
20:31:32 <augur> q, on the other hand, is sampa for q.
20:31:49 <fizzie> I can't read that notation. :/
20:32:03 <AnMaster> yet augur wants us all to learn to
20:32:09 <augur> think of it like an esolang!
20:32:23 <AnMaster> augur, I don't plan to learn every esolang
20:33:29 <Slereah> I'm pretty sure every esolang put together has less instructions than a regular programming language
20:33:31 <augur> just think of how wonderfully esoteric it would be t+h bi eI)b@l t+h@ t+haI)p laIk DIs @nd h{v p+hip@5 Vnd3`st{_rnd ju!
20:34:20 <estoppel> unikitten will be made one day
20:34:25 <estoppel> once someone makes a strictly monospaced unicode font
20:35:47 <augur> ɛstɑpəl: ɪts kʰɔld lusɪdə gɹænd tʍɛɫv
20:36:18 <Slereah> estoppel : How do you make a monospaced empty character?
20:36:29 <augur> slereah: with magic. :o
20:36:37 <estoppel> Slereah: — modulo special characters, of course.
20:38:49 <estoppel> I should found a university with a focus on not using shitty things like Shibboleth.
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20:44:22 <estoppel> It seems my thereminning was for naught, as oklopol has disappeared.
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21:52:13 <estoppel> "yep! i have seen people with 2 iphones.
21:52:13 <estoppel> i guess thats the only way they can really multitask for now."
21:52:30 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:53:03 <ais523> I didn't know lambdabot did that
21:53:09 <ais523> also, why did it announce in-channel?
21:53:27 <estoppel> as opposed to noticing later "oh, a new tab with lambdabot on it"
21:53:41 <ais523> a new tab that turns red and makes the IRC client flash at me?
21:54:07 <GregorR> At least it didn't announce the content in the channel :P
21:54:17 <estoppel> GregorR: even though i sent it in channel :P
21:54:23 <ais523> an IRC client that doesn't do nickpings is kind-of rubbish
21:54:30 <GregorR> (Which I assume is "hey ais i think ur hot lets cyber", because what else would a person send via lambdabot)
21:54:57 <estoppel> ais523: some people like to not be bothered
21:55:16 <estoppel> GregorR: 13:43 ehird: @tell ais523 wikipedians are arguing over whether to include the public domain rorschach test images on the article ... because it would make it harder for psychologists to use them, or something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rorschach_test :not as though the test works any more than say, astrology :D not as though the test works any more than say, astrology...
21:55:37 <estoppel> Just wanted to tell him since he's tagged as "wikipedian" in my mind :-P
21:55:41 <estoppel> And I found it highly amusing.
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22:22:19 <Pthingg> a sacrum, two gnomes high-fiving, two black women with red hats low-fiving, a shitting giant, a bat, a violin with a sort of rotating razor blade deal, a kind of necklace made of almost axehead shapes, two giant mites sucking some qi out of a linear black hole, and standing on some dead things they probably conquered to get up, a deer god with flaming horns and breathing out smoke, sea creatures having a party like there's a sort of prawn at the top an
22:22:19 <Pthingg> d two seahorses and some spiny fish one with a lobster claw
22:31:17 <Slereah> Is that your secret fetish
22:33:10 * oerjan expects that's from one of those recent rorschach threads
22:34:42 * oerjan points out that one thing he saw in that wp article was that _what_ you see is only part of the test, the rationalization for your choices afterwards iirc is even more important
22:34:56 <oerjan> or something like rationalization
22:36:02 <oerjan> mind you it might still be astrology, but it would be like the difference between a newspaper horoscope and a full chart, i think
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23:13:25 <oklopol> estoppel: oklofok: what os are you using atm btw? and is your internet good enough to dl 23mb? <<< still vista, and ~
23:15:25 <oklopol> ~ being "5 hours, 44 minutes left" :P
23:16:56 <oklopol> also why the fuck is my firefox in finnish
23:17:01 <oklopol> where can you change that?
23:20:54 <oklopol> i have no idea how long it's been in finnish, i just realized something was wrong when comparing my "~ being..." message and the actual time left message in ff
23:21:32 <oklopol> and turns out they were in different langauges
23:24:56 <oklopol> estoppel: something smaller might be nice.
23:25:16 <pikhq> Man, that's a great description of unsafePerformIO. "We invent the world, perform an action on it, then destroy the world."
23:25:37 <oklopol> except it's the same world
23:27:01 <oklopol> i like to ruin other people's fun
23:27:07 <oklopol> estoppel: stop not being here
23:33:33 <oklopol> wtf, also µtorrent is in finnish
23:34:07 <oklopol> especially as about 50% of it is translated
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23:37:33 <oklopol> i hate how he actually gets the words right.
23:40:57 <estoppel> 23:24 oklopol: estoppel: something smaller might be nice.
23:41:05 <estoppel> and it'd look shit if i compressed it moe
23:42:00 <estoppel> meanwhile, scientists have synthesized CP in a lab
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23:42:06 <estoppel> by which I mean copernicium, the new name of element 112.
23:42:27 <estoppel> oklopol: 2.5 kB/s → pause utorrent man
23:43:05 <oklopol> they cloned a human, but only used it for porn.
23:43:55 <oklopol> well i know, my point was the continuation, admittedly not funny, not that that was my intention anyway.
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23:44:31 <oklopol> i never really tell "jokes" to be funny, i just tend to mimic what others do on channels.
23:44:38 <oklopol> which i guess means i do try to be funny
23:44:42 <oklopol> but only in the way a markov chain bot would
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00:09:54 <oklopol> estoppel: oklopol: 2.5 kB/s → pause utorrent man <<< already paused
00:11:02 <oklopol> dna's... blob. this usb thing, very slow, and i'm in the middle of nothing atm
00:11:41 <estoppel> oklopol: well the smallest i could get it would be like 5mb and it'd look and sound like shit then
00:11:45 <estoppel> 8mb for something that's kind of okay
00:12:47 <estoppel> oklopol: how long's been going
00:14:18 <estoppel> will you be awake in 3 hours :D
00:14:54 <oklopol> i will watch one episode of scrubs while massaging feet, then sleep.
00:15:07 <estoppel> oklopol: so um how long do those episodes last
00:15:30 <GregorR> oklopol: I read that as "while messaging feet"
00:15:51 <estoppel> oklopol: no way i'm gonna be able to make a file that small without it being unwatchable
00:17:10 <oklopol> the connection was like 0.1 kB/s at first, so actually you probably could
00:17:34 <estoppel> oklopol: yeah but you'd have to restart it.
00:17:45 <estoppel> how much left does it estimate?
00:17:52 <GregorR> You can't change the encoding midway? LAME.
00:18:18 <oklopol> so if you got it to 8, about half an hour
00:19:10 <estoppel> oklopol: just stay awake because you can't possibly wait.
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00:23:57 <estoppel> haha this is so hard to transcript
00:28:04 <GregorR> Y'know what I just realized? It's weird that Google still has a Firefox start page :P
00:28:23 <GregorR> But then again, what are they supposed to do, put ads for Google Chrome on it?
00:28:52 <estoppel> GregorR: google recommend firefox too
00:29:01 <estoppel> e.g. in youtube's "lol we're gonna stop supporting ur shit ie6"
00:31:54 <estoppel> GregorR: google have a lot of relation with browser makers anyway
00:32:13 <estoppel> safari and firefox get $$$$$$$ for google searches from their toolbar
00:42:32 <estoppel> where's oerjan when you need him
00:46:52 <oklopol> only 1 hours, 26 minutes left!
00:47:21 <estoppel> i made it just for you oklopol
00:47:35 <oklopol> the connection can occasionally drop for hours, not really surprising it's not that stable when it's on.
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01:07:45 <estoppel> ==============================================================
01:07:45 <estoppel> The (Interactive) Glasgow Haskell Compiler -- version 6.10.4
01:07:46 <estoppel> ==============================================================
01:08:14 <Slereah> (define you (cons nigger nigger))
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01:21:54 <Slereah> Does that definition works for n = 0?
01:22:54 <estoppel> Well, we're looking at numbers between 1 to 0; if we interpret this as ascending like every other case, there are no numbers to consider.
01:23:03 <estoppel> If we interpret it as descending, there aren't any either.
01:23:59 <estoppel> Both of the above definitions incorporate the instance
01:24:06 <estoppel> as an instance of the fact that the product of no numbers at all is 1.
01:24:24 <estoppel> ais523: Thank you, that's utterly useless :P
01:27:47 <estoppel> ais523: I'm not sure "(n ∏ k=1) k" is a reasonable linear expression of that, though.
01:27:58 <estoppel> Maybe n ∏ k=1: k or something would be better.
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02:03:19 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> estoppel, there? <estoppel> yes <estoppel> now I am <-- damn missed you.... now what was it I wanted to ask hm... meh forgot
02:04:11 <AnMaster> 18% 6800KB 2.9KB/s - stalled - <-- scp to NZ isn't a good solution when both end has DSL
02:04:26 <estoppel> ADSL is better than other DSL, no?
02:04:37 <AnMaster> estoppel, SDSL would be even better?
02:05:31 <AnMaster> estoppel, 8 mbit down. But ISP provides 24 mbit down with same modem, just costs more
02:05:38 <AnMaster> estoppel, I do, but I never used it
02:05:46 <estoppel> although they might not offer it to you
02:06:01 <estoppel> american megatrends...? Or ... texas instruments...? or something
02:06:07 <AnMaster> estoppel, that was luxury compared to 28.8k!
02:06:15 <estoppel> i figured out i could turn down the volume one day
02:06:15 <AnMaster> estoppel, usrobotics or whatever it was
02:06:19 <estoppel> i never missed those bleeps and whines
02:07:00 <AnMaster> those sounds did have a certain charm
02:07:56 <AnMaster> estoppel, that us robotics modem had a volume control on the side though
02:08:14 <estoppel> and yes, i love the sounds now
02:08:29 <AnMaster> estoppel, I never found where to enter the modem commands thingy under MacOS
02:08:57 <AnMaster> estoppel, a full wheel here, but not sticking out from the modem, flat against the surface with some grippy thing on it
02:09:44 <AnMaster> estoppel, not exactly this, but very similar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fax_modem_antigo.jpg
02:10:16 <AnMaster> you can't see it from that view
02:10:59 <AnMaster> estoppel, from google image search. this colour scheme: http://www.frontierpc.com/ProductImages/Large/1010110777.jpg
02:11:14 <estoppel> yeah mine didn't look like that.
02:11:36 <AnMaster> estoppel, you can see the wheel inhttp://www.wrca.net/images/USrobotics/US_robotics_USR0268_14_4_Modem.jpg
02:11:49 <AnMaster> properly clickable url: http://www.wrca.net/images/USrobotics/US_robotics_USR0268_14_4_Modem.jpg
02:12:02 <AnMaster> estoppel, this was a *fax* modem
02:13:39 <estoppel> they're like teleporters but it has to be made of paper
02:13:52 <AnMaster> estoppel, we never had a fax, and we never got the fax application working for the modem
02:13:57 <estoppel> it felt like you were REALLY sending that document
02:14:01 <AnMaster> plus we didn't want the computer turned on all the time
02:14:08 <estoppel> it would actually appear, the same one, wherever you sent it
02:14:15 <AnMaster> estoppel, the original cam back?
02:14:32 <estoppel> what happens after is irrelevant
02:14:42 <AnMaster> estoppel, also it would fail at colours
02:15:50 <AnMaster> estoppel, heard about the black paper in circle thingy?
02:16:32 <AnMaster> estoppel, take a fax machine, dial up another one and such. then feed it a completely black paper, then take the ends of said paper to each other, so it went in a circle.
02:16:44 <AnMaster> do this when there was no one at home at the other fax machine
02:16:58 <AnMaster> estoppel, I never did it. but I heard about it being done. might be an urban myth
02:17:07 <estoppel> if only i had a time machine...
02:17:22 <AnMaster> estoppel, can't you get fax machines these days?
02:17:40 <estoppel> AnMaster: the kind of people who'd do that and report on it would be the phreakers and they, um... aren't very reliable
02:17:45 <AnMaster> estoppel, there is a wikipedia article on that prank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_fax
02:18:46 <AnMaster> "Description of Black Faxing in court documents -- usdoj.gov"
02:18:54 <AnMaster> not sure if that is a reliable source
02:18:59 <estoppel> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace_card
02:19:16 <AnMaster> <estoppel> that can't possibly work <estoppel> AnMaster: it probably worked
02:19:45 <estoppel> things that can't happen usually do
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02:30:36 -!- CESSMASTER420 has changed nick to CESSMASTER.
02:40:38 <GregorR> CESSMASTER would like to announce his proclivity towards drugs.
02:41:07 <CESSMASTER> GregorR: as if being called "cessmaster" weren't enough
02:42:09 <GregorR> I honestly have no idea if that's a reference...
02:42:33 <estoppel> He likes cess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cess)
02:45:12 <estoppel> CESSMASTER: Anyway, you can't do that now; it's not 4:20.
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03:06:42 -!- Slereah has set topic: coNsidering the traged yof the international neglEct of the Pringlestinian pEople | I'm don't that stupid who understand obviously | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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06:58:22 <Warrigal> Wow: http://www.rainedog.com/d/20090501.html
07:00:12 <Warrigal> Out of context, that strip is quite *interesting*.
07:00:36 <Warrigal> In context, it's not much different.
07:00:55 <Warrigal> The context is that she has a completely innocent reason for being under the same roof.
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08:50:38 <augur> warrigal: girl dogs :(
08:51:57 <augur> also, i dont think theres anything out of context there
08:52:35 <augur> ignoring the implication that they sexed, thats pretty "JEFF! OH MY GOD!"
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11:01:04 <oklofok> lol, disconnected right after i went to sleep
11:01:19 <oklofok> ff probably doesn't know how to continue
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11:21:04 <oklofok> i guess it's switching time back to ie
11:22:18 <oklofok> lol, ie transfers faster too :D
11:23:09 <oklofok> (ff couldn't even start the transfer)
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12:48:09 <ehird> 22:58:22 <Warrigal> Wow: http://www.rainedog.com/d/20090501.html
12:48:12 <ehird> Fucking furries; furries fucking.
12:50:45 <ehird> "Because saying Twitter sucks strikes me as kind of like saying haiku sucks?" // srsly?
12:52:26 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:52:52 <ehird> is the file playableability.
12:52:58 <ehird> the very concept itself
12:53:01 <oklopol> for some reason, my computer crashed even though i had vlc on fullscreen.
12:55:25 <oklopol> can't make out all you say at the end
12:55:28 <ehird> i did tell you i was terrible at it
12:55:31 <ehird> also, i don't even remember
12:55:34 <ehird> i was just mumbling
12:55:46 <ehird> i think at the end i commented on how just walking was making it spew crap
12:56:10 <oklopol> i thought you said "you really shouldn't buy one of these things" or something :D
12:56:58 <fizzie> You picked that thought right out of his head.
12:57:26 <oklopol> from some of the introductory vids i've gotten the impression some are linear, some are not
12:58:40 <oklopol> i think i've mostly mastered aerial fingering already, some of the jumps are still somewhat jittery
12:59:45 -!- Judofyr has changed nick to Judofyr2.
12:59:51 <oklopol> because while the thumb and the wrist are the stable part, the rest are the part that makes the sound in the next octave, making it hard to get a fast jump right
13:00:14 -!- Judofyr2 has changed nick to Judofyr3.
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13:00:30 <oklopol> ehird: basically one centimeter = some interval
13:00:37 <oklopol> instead of some amt of hertz
13:00:51 <ehird> oklopol: you mean, like, it's non-continuous?
13:00:59 <ehird> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 40, ...
13:01:05 <oklopol> i'm just assuming that's what's meant, i can't estimate thhat from the vids.
13:01:37 <ehird> oklopol: what do you mean then
13:01:40 <oklopol> wait till python starts up
13:01:58 <ehird> your computer is slow :D
13:04:09 <oklopol> my intuition says something like
13:04:09 <oklopol> >>> [440*2**(float(i)/12) for i in xrange(12)]
13:04:09 <oklopol> [440.0, 466.16376151808993, 493.88330125612413, 523.25113060119725, 554.36526195374415, 587.32953583481515, 622.25396744416184, 659.25511382573984, 698.45646286600777, 739.9888454232688, 783.99087196349853, 830.60939515989025]
13:04:38 <oklopol> no idea what non linear is, stuff like
13:04:39 <oklopol> >>> [440+440*(float(i)/12) for i in xrange(12)]
13:04:39 <oklopol> [440.0, 476.66666666666669, 513.33333333333337, 550.0, 586.66666666666663, 623.33333333333337, 660.0, 696.66666666666674, 733.33333333333326, 770.0, 806.66666666666674, 843.33333333333326]
13:05:26 <oklopol> iterating 12 steps of some length
13:06:32 <oklopol> for the linear one, you'd get some constant interval of change for a constant rise in centimeters, but there's a limit for how high you can go
13:06:42 <ehird> i think all are linear
13:06:50 <oklopol> non linear could be like how guitars do it, in which case you can get infinitely high
13:07:04 <oklopol> of course probably not the case in reality, but mathematically speaking
13:07:10 <ehird> no, there's definitely a limit as you touch the antenna
13:07:25 <ehird> oklopol: big jumps just consist of immediately cutting the volume, jumping to the next note and going back, i think
13:08:00 <oklopol> that's just avoiding the glissando.
13:08:20 <ehird> oklopol: well you stand so that with your hands to your side there's no tone
13:08:28 <ehird> and with your hand stretched out it touches the pitch antenna
13:08:39 <ehird> so... it's not exactly hard to do big jumps
13:09:18 <oklopol> i don't see your point, did i say it's hard to do big jumps?
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13:09:41 <ehird> 12:59 oklopol: because while the thumb and the wrist are the stable part, the rest are the part that makes the sound in the next octave, making it hard to get a fast jump right
13:09:47 <ehird> that isn't related to linearness then
13:10:15 <oklopol> linearness is related to how your aerial fingering needs to change depending on where your stable part is located
13:10:34 <oklopol> and that was about getting the fingering right
13:10:52 <ehird> oklopol: are you actually playing with a nonexistent theremin? xD
13:11:04 <ehird> oklopol: there are programs i think that use a webcam to make a virtual theremin
13:11:13 <oklopol> it's not exactly hard to mentally divide the air into notes
13:11:33 <ehird> oklopol: there's no division, just so you know
13:11:43 <ehird> it's a smooth scale of hz i'm pretty sure
13:11:55 <ehird> oklopol: btw at points in that video i fiddle with the knobs
13:11:57 <oklopol> i often play the piano without sound, why not a theremin
13:12:07 <ehird> just in case you're misinterpreting me playing slightly different afterwards or sth
13:12:13 <oklopol> yeah i know it's smooth, lol
13:12:24 <oklopol> you talk like i'm not an expert at it.
13:12:48 <ehird> oklopol: i generally work on the assumption that you're not a world expert in everything :D
13:13:07 <oklopol> i wish i had like meat or something, i'm hungry
13:13:18 <ehird> oklopol: when i just did one and it went weeeeeeeeearuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh that was the pitch one, in case you're retarded and didn't know that
13:13:29 <ehird> leftmost on the video would be my rightmost which was brightness
13:13:33 <ehird> and the remaining one's waveform i think
13:13:40 <ehird> pitch, waveform, brightness
13:14:07 <oklopol> not the retarded part, i knew it was the pitch :P
13:14:10 <ehird> i don't know what the latter two actually -do-
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13:14:36 <ehird> oklopol: btw my £200 figure is inaccurate because i got it off ebay (albeit new)
13:14:45 <ehird> also it was more like £250
13:14:52 <ehird> (at least i think it was new, too long ago to remember)
13:15:46 <oklopol> i don't really care about anything except pitch
13:16:02 <oklopol> so i'll just call some of my hifi friends to make it sound nice
13:16:04 <oerjan> <oklopol> i hate how he actually gets the words right.
13:16:18 <oerjan> i _did_ use google translate in case it bothers you :D
13:16:30 <ehird> oklopol: they do markedly change the sound though
13:16:39 <ehird> i mean, some sounds will be hard to get without twiddlin' them
13:16:49 <oklopol> but you do have a history of getting some of the stuff right no one else does
13:16:56 <ehird> oklopol: but you're meant to use only one pitch setting
13:17:07 <oklopol> like the translation of the part you did not translate in your quit msg.
13:17:09 <ehird> you have to stand the right distance and make it so that you get either a very low tone or silence when your hands are by your side
13:17:42 <oklopol> i think you're supposed to set the pitch so that aerial fingering lets you get one full octave
13:18:25 <oklopol> but hey what do i know i'm not a world expert in everything
13:18:27 <ehird> i think that's what doing that does
13:18:32 <ehird> oklopol: i'm quoting the manual from the holy moog
13:21:09 <oklopol> ehird: if you're unlazy enough to google for a webcam theremin at some point, do tell. i'm not actually sure whether it's the webcam that's broken or the one program i had for it.
13:21:20 <ehird> oklopol: not a typo no
13:21:29 <oklopol> (if it's the program, the complete crashing of the computer is somewhat impressive)
13:21:34 <ehird> oklopol: http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~squires/vt/
13:21:50 <ehird> http://www.instructables.com/community/The-Virtual-Theremin/
13:22:36 <ehird> oklopol: are you using a laptop? there's a tool from Synaptics that uses the touchpad to do it :D
13:22:44 <ehird> [[if you have a Synaptics touchpad in your laptop (and windows) you can get a free theremin here:
13:22:44 <ehird> http://www.synaptics.com/support/utili.cfm
13:22:46 <ehird> the x& y axes control the pitch & tremelo, while the pressure on the pad controls the volume.
13:22:48 <ehird> (don't forget to staccato tap all over the pad to make R2D2 noises)]]
13:22:50 <ehird> might not be a synaptics touchpad ofc
13:24:25 <oklopol> it's the lack of touch that makes it a theremin
13:24:48 <oerjan> <estoppel> where's oerjan when you need him <-- wat
13:25:10 <oklopol> i've seen and played surfaces and strings mapped to smooth scales before
13:25:40 <ehird> oerjan: what's a reasonable linear representation of capital sigma/pi notation (with unicode)
13:25:50 <ehird> i later did "(a {{SIGMA}} b) c" is:
13:26:12 <ehird> you're mathematician, you should know what the operations feel like. QED
13:26:31 <oklopol> you usually use ellipses, if i understand the q
13:26:42 <ehird> oklopol: like what?
13:27:35 <oklopol> basically you do c(with a substituted for iteration var) + c(same for a+1) + ... + c(with b for it)
13:27:43 <oerjan> \sum_{a}^{b} c is the TeX
13:27:57 <ehird> oklopol: yeah that's not what i was asking.
13:28:07 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, but that's not what it feels like
13:28:46 <oklopol> i'll probably go offline now, because the webcam will crash my computer
13:29:41 <fizzie> "sum_{a to b} c" is what I've been writing when I've wanted to talk about a sum in a single-line ascii-only context. It's a bit TeX-inspired, but not quite. And not very pretty either.
13:29:45 <ehird> oklopol: oerjan: n! = ??? ∀n ∈ ℕ
13:30:06 <oklopol> i don't see those characters right
13:30:14 <ehird> oklopol: first three are question marks
13:30:19 <ehird> then upside down A
13:30:29 <ehird> in the ??? = part, it's pi
13:30:34 <ehird> the issue is that,
13:30:46 <ehird> is ambiguous wrt k=1 and the k
13:30:55 <ehird> implies some sort of currying to my mind
13:31:00 <oerjan> \product_{k=1}^n k, i think
13:31:08 <ehird> so i'm not sure the most readable & most accurate way to represent it
13:31:11 <fizzie> Just write the tex, everyone's got a built-in TeX renderizer in their brains.
13:31:16 <ehird> oerjan: that's nothing close to the corresponding mathematical notation
13:31:37 <fizzie> It overrides the visual input and embeds the result there.
13:31:50 <ehird> anyway i hate writing tex.
13:32:15 -!- ehird has set topic: 〃 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
13:32:28 <oerjan> ehird: you need {} around unless it's a single character, or thereabouts
13:33:05 <ehird> is still hard to distinguish in a moment imo
13:34:40 <fizzie> Why is that even in that "end ∏ start" order?
13:34:58 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/e/8/0e85eaace43199521530c584b3350444.png
13:35:04 <ehird> my brain instinctively orders the n first.
13:35:13 <ehird> if yours doesn't it's weird
13:35:34 <fizzie> I write TeX sums always \sum_{k=1}^n style, since the progression is "start from here, end up here".
13:35:40 <oerjan> mine certainly doesn't
13:35:40 <ehird> fizzie: i'm kind of tempted to make $$this render in tex$$
13:35:49 <ehird> what's the Proper symbolism for that
13:37:22 <fizzie> A simplified "∏{k=1 → n} k" could work; you rarely need an → in the start/end conditions, and the way there's no space after ∏ makes the {} part look like it's closely related to the ∏. But this is a subjective onion.
13:37:48 <ehird> yeah that's ugly. now what's the tex symbolism for mathematics stuff
13:37:57 <ehird> and how do i get you all to surround your tex with it on IRC.
13:38:40 <fizzie> For inline math, LaTeX is just $foo$. And for displayed equations, it's that \[ bar \]. That's the LaTeX way, though, not the pure-TeX thing.
13:38:41 <oerjan> $ ... $ for inline stuff
13:38:57 <ehird> what's the pure tex?
13:39:07 <ehird> oerjan: ugh but $ to $ is so ambiguous
13:39:12 <ehird> do you ever put spaces around them?
13:39:20 <ehird> "I'll give you $100 if you name a basic variable dick$."
13:39:30 <ehird> so it's still ambiguous
13:39:36 <ehird> I guess I could require whitespace around it but
13:39:38 <ehird> "I'll give you $100 if you name a basic variable dick$"
13:39:41 <fizzie> I think pure TeX might've been $ ... $ too for inline, and the double-dollar for display mode.
13:40:05 <oerjan> ehird: it's not ambiguous in TeX
13:40:19 <ehird> i'm not interpreting full irc lines as tex, oerjan :)
13:40:31 <fizzie> Incidentally, I think the ∏ I used there is different from Π you had. The first one is the special "n-ary product" character, while the latter might be just uppercase pi from the Greek slot.
13:41:30 <ehird> oerjan: fizzie: so, no delimiter suggestions then :D
13:42:40 <fizzie> Not really, no. Though you could use $...$ with suitable guesstimate-heuristics based on the content, if you want to be "TeX-compatible" and yet avoid that "any two dollar signs" thing.
13:43:52 <ehird> any tex math worth its salt will include \, won't it
13:44:43 <ehird> now i have to figure out tex's awful batch mode command line tools and how to turn an expression into a png :D
13:44:48 <GregorR> $3$ // I just wanted this rendered in mathfont :P
13:45:01 <ehird> GregorR: Tough shit :P
13:45:08 <ehird> Do $3\nop$ or something
13:45:24 <GregorR> $2^3$ people in this channel think that's too limited :P
13:45:50 <ehird> GregorR: How can I possibly understand you without a superscript :P
13:46:21 <fizzie> There are TeX plugins for every wiki software in existence, you could just steal/"borrow" someone else's code. They all render to small png pictures.
13:46:21 * oerjan swats GregorR -----###
13:46:54 <fizzie> oerjan: Ah, but it wasn't TeX, since there wasn't a \ in there.
13:47:08 <ehird> fizzie: i'm just not sure how they do it :P
13:47:42 <ehird> it's okay, he didn't say anything
13:47:48 <ehird> he tried to add "3$" to 2 dollars
13:48:11 <oerjan> FORTE string variable, obviously
13:48:15 <fizzie> There's a "texvc" script in the MediaWiki stuff which does the work. It's written in OCaml of all things. :p
13:49:16 <ehird> http://gizmodo.com/5315766/suspiciously-prescient-man-files-patent-for-ipod+like-device-in-1979 // wow
13:49:32 <ehird> fizzie: wmf have a ton of ocaml infrastructure
13:50:11 <ehird> windows media framework, duh
13:50:16 <ehird> (wikimedia foundation)-:
13:50:21 <ehird> Parasitic smilies.
14:00:07 <ehird> "I told Steve that I suspected that Microsoft was going to clone the Mac, but he wasn't that worried because he didn't think they were capable of doing a decent implementation, even with the Mac as an example."
14:03:10 <ehird> "It didn't even have overlapping windows, preferring a simpler technique called "tiling"."
14:03:39 <ehird> GregorR: I was thinking of tiling window managers :)
14:04:19 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiKwErpPwMs
14:05:15 <ehird> Whatever it is, it isn't as good as the video where Ballmer yells about Windows being $99, or the crack-filled 10 minute spy advert.
14:06:47 <GregorR> It's not an advert ... per se? It's a floppy they distributed to encourage people to use Windows. It's a slideshow of "features"
14:07:25 <ehird> If it starts playing, I'll watch.
14:10:03 <HackEgo> Fri Jul 17 13:10:03 UTC 2009
14:10:10 <fizzie> There's reversi, though. And it stayed there up to 3.0, but was dropped from 3.1. :/
14:11:05 <ehird> it plays now, yay.
14:11:30 <fizzie> The Youtube clip seems to advertise the black-and-white version; something like 1.02 or 1.04 added colors.
14:11:33 <ehird> I gotta admit that Windows 1.0 _was_ pretty cool.
14:11:51 <ehird> Fitting the existing, hardware-poking DOS applications into a multitasking & windowing system.
14:13:11 <fizzie> Not too well, though. And DESQView did it earlier.
14:13:59 <ehird> True, but it's not exactly easy to make applications that mess with all your hardware directly play together nicely.
14:16:54 <fizzie> Besides, getting Windows 1 for the classroom PC made it trivial for everyone to access the directory with the alt-255 invisible character in the name, where the larry 1 copy had successfully been hiding, available only for those who were "in" on the secret.
14:17:52 <fizzie> Since the "MS-DOS Executive" let you just point-and-click. :/
14:18:14 <ehird> ...and forevermore, fizzie eschewed graphical interfaces in favour of the more arcane ways.
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14:21:03 * oerjan wonders why US radio stations abbreviations seem to begin with "K"...
14:22:20 <ehird> They don't all, do they?
14:22:38 <ehird> Or maybe "K" means "United Kstates?"
14:23:04 <augur> they dont all do that
14:23:40 <oerjan> that's what i found. no explanation for the letters, though...
14:24:05 <ehird> for my joke to work
14:24:18 <fizzie> http://www.oldradio.com/archives/general/kwtrivia.htm has the story.
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14:24:48 <fizzie> Wait. The link promised for it to have the story.
14:24:51 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_sign#North_America
14:24:52 <ehird> "(Initially ship stations were the reverse, with W assignments in the west, and K in the east)"
14:24:55 <ehird> SOMEBODY UNDERSTANDS ME
14:25:33 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_callsign#K_and_W
14:25:48 <ehird> I wonder why people make such complex federated single-sign-on systems
14:26:17 <ehird> augur: totally unrelated to the conversation at hand you must realise
14:26:31 <augur> whats a single sign on system?
14:26:49 <ehird> like Shibboleth. a university or company or whatever wants to provide a bunch of services to people
14:26:53 <ehird> but they have a ton of unrelated systems
14:26:59 <ehird> and want you to only have to sign in once
14:27:08 <ehird> for non-web stuff too
14:27:13 <ehird> all the solutions are so complex
14:27:32 <ehird> why not just use https or something and do https://authserver/authkey/${key_provided_by_client}? Use the IP or something
14:27:44 <ehird> i can't understand how it's a nontrivial problem
14:27:47 <ehird> juts random thought
14:28:56 <fizzie> It still doesn't really explain why exactly K and W. "The call letters assigned to the United States are all combinations (676) beginning with the letter N and all (676) beginning with the letter W, and all combinations (598) from KDA to KZZ, inclusive. (NOTE: The assignment of W and K to the United States appears to have been completely arbitrary--the letters have no particular significance. N, however, had been commonly used by the U.S. Navy since November,
14:30:52 <oerjan> well, that's what they _want_ us to think
14:32:42 <ehird> fizzie: isn't using K and W using 5 bits for 1? :D
14:33:23 <ehird> well N too I guess
14:33:33 <augur> whats your opinion of the Mancunian accent?
14:33:53 <ehird> actually ~1.5849 according to \bot
14:34:04 <ehird> augur: i don't have many accents assigned to names
14:34:09 <ehird> but i probably find it annoying.
14:34:19 <augur> the accent of people from Manchester. :P
14:34:32 <oerjan> augur: my opinion is: what the heck is the Mancunian accent?
14:35:08 <fizzie> Er, it's an international thing. It has to not-conflict with other places, which have other combinations assigned to them.
14:35:27 <ehird> augur: yah i don't actually know what they sound like i don't associate people with places.
14:35:29 <fizzie> "The United Kingdom uses G, M, VS, ZB–ZJ, ZN–ZO, ZQ, and 2."
14:35:40 <ehird> .......booooooring.
14:35:59 * oerjan _did_ sort of know LA was norway, but only because of a norwegian comedy sketch...
14:36:12 <fizzie> Hey, that page provides one hypothesis:
14:36:13 <fizzie> "The United States was represented by the military at the 1927 conference, which is why it received (or, in some cases, retained) A (for Army) and N (for Navy). The W and K for civilian stations followed as the simple addition of a dash to the Morse code letters A and N."
14:36:16 <GregorR> * oerjan _did_ sort of know LA was norway, but only because of a norwegian comedy sketch...
14:36:56 <oerjan> probably only used by radio amateurs, though
14:37:34 <fizzie> I know OH is Finland, because one sees that painted on airplanes. (Although apparently according to the table Finland has the OF-OJ range. And Norway has LA-LN)
14:38:13 <oerjan> since that was what the sketch was about, and i've never heard it about any other kind of station...
14:40:17 <fizzie> Yes, "normal" radio stations don't use the codes here either. Although I guess they might still be allocated one, technically speaking.
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14:48:17 <ehird> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jul-16.html ← Yow.
14:50:35 <ehird> "LLVM is not able to support some of the features that Mono needs, so in those cases the JIT compiler will still fall back to Mono's JIT engine (methods that contain try/catch clauses or methods that do interface calls). "
14:50:43 <ehird> I think LLVM can do try/catch.
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14:51:15 <ehird> ah, they just can't do it "at the moment"
14:51:37 <ehird> John Harrop commented positively.
14:51:42 <ehird> Harrop. Praising Mono. What the fuck.
14:51:49 <ehird> ...probably an impersonator.
14:51:59 <ehird> "You should do a Mono port of android. It must be fairly easy to translate Java to C# given how similar they are."
14:52:07 <oerjan> hey hey many people get softer with age
14:54:56 <ehird> "Aha! yet more Elaborate intellectual justifications from the weak beta males..."
14:54:59 <ehird> Am I really reading this on Less Wrong?
14:56:24 <oerjan> are you implying it's not true?
14:57:45 <ehird> oerjan: I wasn't talking about xkcd if you thought so; but I'm incredibly surprised that there's an idiotic "ALPHA MALE HURR" person criticizing people for justifying things… intellectually… on a community about rationalism.
14:57:52 <GregorR> http://www.explosm.net/comics/1736/ Sooooooooooooooooo offensive
14:58:17 <ehird> (the post triggering the thread was about how all the neeeeeeeeeeeeeeerds here are beta males who won't take action and be total assholes to women so that they can have sex with attractive people.)
14:58:20 <ehird> (I'm quoting almost directly.)
14:58:54 <ehird> http://lesswrong.com/lw/12w/absolute_denial_for_atheists/xg9?context=1#xg9
15:00:34 <Deewiant> ehird: LLVM doesn't support EH on Windows.
15:01:02 <ehird> That's no reason to disable it for all platforms, tohugh.
15:01:08 <Deewiant> SEH is fairly undocumented and the devs don't use Windows.
15:01:18 <Deewiant> There's little interest in implementing it.
15:02:32 <ehird> That's no reason to disable it for all platforms, tohugh.
15:04:08 <GregorR> <ehird> That's no reason to disable it for all platforms, tohugh.
15:04:18 <ehird> [[Take-away from this comic: The new meme of proposing a comically horrible and violent plan, and then adding, "Like men once did."]] — like men once did.
15:06:09 <ehird> Everything Munroe says is a meme and utter comedic & inspirational genius to the people on the xkcd forum
15:07:11 <ehird> Hip language + LLVM seems to be a popular combination these days.
15:07:20 <ehird> I wonder when we'll get Erlang + LLVM. Or Haskell + LLVM.
15:08:36 <Deewiant> We already have Haskell + LLVM.
15:08:46 <Deewiant> (Google it, can't remember where.)
15:09:12 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=haskell++llvm&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 ;; the only relevant thing seems to be that stc/ehc thing
15:09:36 <ehird> and it appears to be vaporware/presentationware: http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/bin/view/Stc/CompilingHaskellToLLVM
15:11:14 <Deewiant> Right, http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/llvm was only bindings
15:17:47 <GregorR> 23 is such a lame birthday :P
15:23:31 <oerjan> i'd say it's a prime age
15:23:39 <Deewiant> Calling your birthday lame is a lame way of drawing attention to it
15:23:46 <ehird> Deewiant: no, i did that.
15:24:38 <GregorR> I assumed "hb" = "happy birthday"
15:24:42 <GregorR> Since it is in fact my birthday.
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15:43:51 <GregorR> http://www.flickr.com/photos/72186321@N00/3727447769/sizes/o/
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15:53:14 <ehird> 13:31 oerjan: \product_{k=1}^n k, i think
15:54:30 <ehird> blame jsmath's lab tool
15:55:22 <ehird> n! = \prod_{k=1}^n k \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{N}\!
15:55:34 <AnMaster> ehird, btw you said something about me having a lot of edits on MB a few days ago iirc?
15:55:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm at 233 in total now
15:56:00 <ehird> on one hand, they must love you
15:56:05 <ehird> on the other, you're fucking nuts.
15:56:06 <AnMaster> 143 open ones, two accepted 83 auto edits
15:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, AND I HAVE STILL OVER 30 classical CDs to add!
15:56:44 <AnMaster> ehird, currently I'm adding roughly four per day
15:57:17 <pikhq> What are you doing, tagging them by hand?
15:57:25 <ehird> pikhq: into musicbrainz, yes.
15:57:37 <ehird> he listens to über obscure classical without any entries :-P
15:57:59 <AnMaster> and doing lots of other edits of course, such as fixing incorrect info in cds that are in there. (The tracks with yellow bg in http://musicbrainz.org/release/3c969e3d-1fdc-4186-90fc-73eb0e70708e.html were edited by me. Note that listing shows the state *before* the edits, since they are still open)
15:58:49 <ehird> isn't (disc 1) in the title forbidden?
15:58:52 <ehird> i forget the policy
15:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, actually most of the ~30 cds left to add are compilations trying to make classical music popular. You know... stuff like "The best of Vivaldi" and such.
15:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: has that ever worked though? exactly!
15:59:18 <AnMaster> Often lacking a detailed info like Opus numbers and such
15:59:51 <ehird> i think i know of one instance where any kind of traditional music was made popular through an album.
16:00:11 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea. But I met quite a few people who didn't know of Grieg or "In the hall of the Mountain King", but when they heard it they went "Oh that one, used in <some movie I forgot>" and such
16:00:39 <ehird> (The example I was thinking of is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buena_Vista_Social_Club_(album))
16:00:40 <AnMaster> so I suspect a lot of people listen to more classical than they think they do
16:00:52 <ehird> people don't actively listen to soundtracks though
16:00:57 <ehird> you're not meant to notice them
16:02:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you have seen Star Wars? Do you remember the music from (in the 5th movie) when the Empire attacked that rebel base on the ice planet?
16:02:30 <ehird> i have idly seen some star wars movies occasionally.
16:02:34 <AnMaster> some sort of march. Very noticable.
16:02:41 <ehird> no. i don't recall at all
16:03:38 <AnMaster> ehird, huge green walking machines? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Battlehothesb.JPG
16:03:42 <pikhq> Do you remember the Emperial March?
16:03:55 <ehird> Emperial is my new favourite word.
16:03:58 * GregorR listens to Josef Suk's Fantastic Scherzo
16:03:58 <GregorR> I wurve this almost too much.
16:03:59 <ehird> It's empire + imperial!
16:04:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is the one they play there iirc?
16:04:06 <pikhq> s/Emperial/Imperial/
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16:04:17 <AnMaster> heh, I mentally corrected it without noticing
16:04:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Believe so.
16:04:32 <pikhq> But the theme comes up quite often; it's a bit of a leitmotif. ;)
16:05:50 <AnMaster> the point I was trying to make was that "<ehird> you're not meant to notice [movie soundtracks]" isn't always true. Another example: The main music "signature" in the India Jones movies.
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16:06:50 <pikhq> I at least listen to soundtracks...
16:07:00 <ehird> i'm talking about during the movie
16:07:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, you are usually meant to notice the leitmotifs of movies.
16:07:03 <pikhq> Including video game soundtracks.
16:07:29 <AnMaster> I actually have a abridged version of the complete star wars soundtracks on CD... Somewhere
16:07:42 <pikhq> ehird: Then they do a crappy job by having leitmotifs.
16:07:45 <AnMaster> (as in, not everything, just the more popular stuff)
16:07:51 <pikhq> Believe me, they're noticable. ;)
16:08:19 <AnMaster> however, when I listened to the track "Yoda's theme" (iirc) it wasn't familiar. Because it was one of the fainter ones you weren't meant to notice...
16:08:23 <ehird> apart from leitmotifs okay?!
16:08:35 <AnMaster> ehird, in that case star wars has two leitmotifs...
16:08:41 <AnMaster> the Empire one and the Rebel one
16:08:49 <ehird> God, shut up, all of you :P
16:09:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought you had a φilter.
16:09:38 <ehird> Anyway, φi is the only acceptable letter replacement. It's so pretty.
16:09:53 <AnMaster> at the end of movie 6 the Rebel leitmotif is *VERY* noticable. Well a variation on it I guess. A happier "triumphal" variant than heard earlier.
16:10:01 <ehird> (Note: I preφer the closed version; not the one that looks like the uppercase one.)
16:10:12 <ehird> (If your φont has it closed, get a new φont.)
16:10:19 <AnMaster> ehird, forgot to put the filter script on autoload in the bouncer
16:11:25 <pikhq> Þou haſt too much Greek.
16:11:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Thou ɸails.
16:11:50 <AnMaster> anyway what is φ? It is missing from my filter
16:12:12 <ehird> Those are the same character.
16:12:17 <ehird> They are both lowercase.
16:12:18 <pikhq> It's all Greek to me.
16:12:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, do they have any sensible meaning in that text?
16:13:41 <Asztal> I 'dfill the blank with a blank
16:13:42 <pikhq> AnMaſter: I believe þat þou miſunderſtood the ɸraſe “It's all Greek to me”.
16:14:07 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: I believe that thou misunderstood the ɸrase “It's all Greek to me”. <-- you are using it now. No way around providing a consistent mapping for it!
16:14:31 <pikhq> I intentionally misused it! HAH!
16:14:51 <ehird> AnMaster's next filtering trick will be to change all of my opinions to his.
16:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that would require understanding what the text meant, thus requiring a strong AI~ ;P
16:15:39 <ehird> I'm not sure it requires intelligence.
16:15:44 <ehird> You seem to partly understand me sometimes.
16:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, to parse what you say? Probably not
16:16:05 <ehird> Excuse me, that was a burn for you, not me.
16:16:35 <AnMaster> anyway... you could just use a lookup table + a bit of fuzzy matching. Would need maybe 50-60 entries?
16:16:52 <ehird> yours could be a φne liner.
16:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, if you don't use φ consistently it seems completely pointless.
16:18:14 <ehird> I am usiφ it consistently; maybe you just caφt make out what sound it represents.
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16:18:40 <AnMaster> lets see what it replaces: a, o, g (during the last few lines)
16:18:52 <fizzie> ϕ and φ are both lowercase-phi, generated by \phi and \varphi in LaTeX, respectively.
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16:19:16 <AnMaster> "anyway" and "one". Same sound? Err?
16:19:16 <ehird> AnMaster: You assume that phonology is directly related to spelling.
16:21:52 <AnMaster> ehird, is /wʌn/ and /ˈɛniweɪ/ same sound?
16:22:13 <AnMaster> I mean, beginning with same even
16:22:26 <ehird> This really isφt difficult.
16:22:27 <AnMaster> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one#Pronunciation http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anyway#Pronunciation
16:22:43 <AnMaster> sure there are several for "one", but none seems to match
16:23:32 <ehird> Hmm, "φnyway" was a typo.
16:23:42 <ehird> It should have been "aφyway"
16:24:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, must have been a typo too then.
16:25:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that removes the /wʌ/ ?
16:26:58 <AnMaster> ehird, would you replace "on" with φn then?
16:27:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see how this makes sense for /wʌn/ being represented as "φe" assuming φ really is /n/
16:28:27 <pikhq> GregorR: And now I know the meaning of Life.
16:28:48 <AnMaster> Unless you try to argue that the orders of the sounds and their roughly corresponding letters are in reverse order
16:29:10 <AnMaster> which, knowing English, isn't *entirely* impossible
16:30:06 <AnMaster> (knowing is not a good word here, the meaning I was trying to use it in doesn't work in there, does it?)
16:39:48 <pikhq> In fact, it's a common idiom.
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16:58:56 <ehird> EMACS WITH A RESOUNDING SNAKE
16:59:56 <ehird> M-sssssssssssssssssssssssss
17:05:06 <GregorR> Esssssssssssssssssscape-meta-alt-control-ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssshift
17:05:52 <ehird> Six megabytesssssssssssssssss and conssssssssstantly sssssssssswapping
17:07:48 * ehird attempts to learn (La)TeX by writing lots of little expressions in it.
17:07:50 <ehird> \prod_{k=n}^m x = x_n \times x_{n+1} \times \ldots \times x_{m-1} \times x_m
17:10:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I know that "knowing x, blah blah" is. but "knowing English" seemed to have a different meaning there.
17:10:43 <AnMaster> which might imply I'm not "knowing English" that well ;P
17:11:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it has the same meaning in this context.
17:21:16 <ehird> Yay, \[\prod_{k=n}^m x = x_n \times x_{n+1} \times \ldots \times x_{m-1} \times x_m\] typesets properly.
17:21:53 <pikhq> Well of course it does. It's TeX -- where correct typesetting is the norm.
17:22:21 <ehird> pikhq: I mean, I wrote it correctly.
17:24:14 <ehird> pikhq: Also, default TeX is kind of crap for not doing Unicode and the like.
17:24:24 <ehird> If you replaced TeX with XeTeX, I'd agree.
17:34:26 <ehird> Meanwhile, http://filebin.ca/gyhqza/sums-and-products.pdf
17:35:02 <pikhq> XeTeX is an implementation of the TeX language.
17:37:03 <ehird> but you can easily make a TeX implementation that looks really ugly
17:37:11 <fizzie> Incidentally, I think that should be $\sum_{k=n}^m x_k$ instead of just $x$ there.
17:38:25 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/vkuvr/sums-and-products.pdf
17:39:09 <fizzie> Sums and products are made of sugar and spice and everything nice.
17:39:31 <ehird> Someone should make a TeX expression _evaluator_. :-)
17:40:11 <fizzie> That's called Mathematica; it can ToExpression["input", TeXForm].
17:40:18 <Warrigal> augur: well, as I kind of said, the context implies that they didn't.
17:40:29 <ehird> fizzie: I don't think it can evaluate my sum expression.
17:40:42 <ehird> Admittedly, it's not very semantic.
17:41:07 <pikhq> ehird: You could write it in TeX.
17:41:23 <pikhq> TeX *is* Turing-complete.
17:41:23 <ehird> ToExpression::esntx: Could not parse \sum_{k=n}^m x_k=x_n+x_{n+1}+ \ldots+x_{m-1}+x_m as Mathematica input.
17:41:36 <Warrigal> So, you guys are using single letters for digraφs again.
17:42:15 <Warrigal> It looks like ðis, or Ðis in uppercase.
17:42:45 <Warrigal> I'm totally pronouncing ðose "you" and, um, "yy".
17:43:05 <ehird> I'm going to write a plugin φor φi replacement.
17:43:14 <ehird> Whereby "plugin" I mean "patch to my IRC client".
17:43:34 <fizzie> Well now, that wasn't a very useful Mathematica session: http://pastebin.com/m147cd2e5
17:43:46 <pikhq> Correct -- þ was written as "y" by early Enliſh typeſetters. ;)
17:44:19 <ehird> pikhq: Mark Twain loves them.
17:44:51 <ehird> Warrigal: Yes; "S".
17:47:32 * pikhq prefers Compose f s
17:52:23 <pikhq> Indeed, ðis is madneß.
17:54:42 <fizzie> Having some trouble getting the fuck-mobile started?
17:55:03 <ehird> Fuck-fuck-fuck darn.
17:56:03 <ehird> 84en it seems to me like we should 102uck all 116e bru115els sprouts.
17:56:11 <ehird> 09:56:03 <ehird> 84en it seems to me like we should 102uck all 116e bru115els sprouts.
17:58:53 <ehird> Ðen I ðink we should φuck all ðe brußels sprouts.
17:59:16 <ehird> pikhq: did ðat work?
17:59:19 <ehird> It isn't reφlected here.
17:59:35 <fizzie> <ehird> Ðen I ðink we should φuck all ðe brußels sprouts.
18:01:56 <pikhq> Þou need'ſt moar ſ.
18:02:20 <ehird> No, mine is φar more elegant; a ðesis on what ðe most noble oφ men must do. Or someðing.
18:02:39 <ehird> (Repaste ðat, please.)
18:02:47 <pikhq> 12:02 < ehird> No, mine is φar more elegant; a ðesis on what ðe most noble oφ men must do. Or someðing.
18:03:13 <ehird> Moto, eh, soak you?
18:03:24 <fizzie> I keep reading φ as q, though. Wonder-qul.
18:03:55 <pikhq> ehird: Moto = moar, kure = please (informal).
18:04:18 <ehird> Moar is never said wið please.
18:06:33 <pikhq> "Please" is a crappy translation of "kure".
18:10:37 <ehird> Then, I ðink we should fuck all ðe brussels sprouts. 100%
18:11:15 <ehird> pikhq: I am an elegant, civilised person.
18:11:31 <ehird> Do impart unto me ðe secret "φs", so ðat I may incorporate it.
18:12:14 <ehird> Holy praise to ðou.
18:12:51 <ehird> Now wið 100% more ſ replacement.
18:13:04 <ehird> pikhq: wait, doeſ it apply at ðe end oφ a word?
18:13:50 <pikhq> Nor doeþ it apply after an s or an f.
18:14:14 <ehird> pikhq: what about aφter an ß?
18:14:35 <pikhq> How often doþ þou write 'sss'?
18:15:45 <ehird> (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '())))
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18:29:55 <ehird> "Haypreß Creek Supercomputer: 360 cores and 250 billion inſtructions per ſecond. On an 8cm x 8cm board."
18:29:57 <ehird> http://colorφorð.com/haypreß.htm
18:30:05 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/haypreß.htm
18:30:07 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/haypress.htm
18:30:11 <ehird> Ðis could poſe a problem, pikhq.
18:30:34 <ehird> how do you get around it?
18:31:23 <pikhq> I'm typing ſ and þ manually.
18:31:41 <ehird> What about GregorR?
18:31:44 <pikhq> Not that hard; just a compose key, and then two letters.
18:32:45 <ehird> i mean, I have %char to eſcape.
18:32:51 <ehird> well φraſe not char really
18:33:08 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined.
18:42:23 <Gracenotes> hah... I have, like, 6 wget wrappers now...
18:44:19 <Gracenotes> actually, 7, if you count the mp4 appending
18:44:42 <Gracenotes> wget from specific websites with varying amounts of preprocessing and cookies
18:45:36 <Gracenotes> for example I have one for YouTube videos I use
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19:09:29 <AnMaster> grr, X crashed and I was unable to unfsck my terminal. Had to use sysrq.
19:10:15 <AnMaster> iirc there is work in progress to clean up graphics handling code in kernel
19:10:29 <AnMaster> hopefully it will also make handling X segfaulting easier
19:11:48 -!- Shuu has left (?).
19:12:08 <pikhq> All graphics mode changing will be done in the kernel, rather than the crazy junk that is having X override the kernel's graphics layer.
19:30:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, how long before binary nvidia drivers start doing that?
19:31:19 <pikhq> Approximately forever.
19:31:42 <pikhq> The same for binary ATI drivers, but that's okay because the binary ATI drivers are intended to be deprecated.
19:31:54 * pikhq checks on how Nouveau's going
19:32:41 <pikhq> Well, Nouveau already supports that.
19:32:55 <pikhq> Shame it doesn't have stable 3D working.
19:33:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah, I pretty much need that. If I can't do flightsim with 2x AA then I'm not changing. :P
19:33:54 <pikhq> I suggest you pick up an ATI card in the future. ;p
19:34:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, when I got this card that would have been insane
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20:12:17 <oerjan> <pikhq> Þou. <-- certainly not, that was a plural use.
20:13:45 <pikhq> No, it was a ſingular in response to a plural.
20:13:58 <pikhq> I was explicitly telling ehird to shut up. :)
20:14:17 <pikhq> Alſo, I like only sometimes using ſ. :P
20:14:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:15:39 <zzo38> I implemeneted auto-answer CTRL+A now (can be turned on and off with a configuration setting)
20:16:27 <zzo38> Now you can check to see if it works properly for you, please.
20:16:59 * oerjan doesn't know what zzo38 is talking about
20:17:07 <pikhq> 14:16 [freenode] CTCP VERSION reply from zzo38: PHIRC:0.2:PHP 4.4.0 on Windows NT 5.1 i586
20:17:28 * pikhq vomits, vomits some more, and then feels an odd urge to vomit still more
20:17:41 <oerjan> 21:17 CTCP PING reply from zzo38: 0.503 seconds
20:18:00 <oerjan> do you mean answers to those?
20:18:26 <zzo38> Yes, it auto answers to CTRL+A message VERSION and PING and also FINGER and TIME, if it is enabled
20:18:58 <zzo38> It displays the CTRL+A message anyways, and then prints "AUTO ANSWERED" if it understood it and answered it
20:20:47 * oerjan didn't know about FINGER. the reply (user id only) doesn't look too useful...
20:21:09 <zzo38> It gives idle time since the user typed in a command, also.
20:21:17 <oerjan> zzo38: also, your clock is 4 minutes late or so :D
20:21:45 <pikhq> oerjan: He uses Windows; NTP is done poorly there.
20:21:51 <zzo38> I know my clock on my computer is wrong, I think it is slow and that's why it is never correct
20:22:25 <pikhq> zzo38: Use a real OS; get your clock within milliseconds of accuracy.
20:22:36 <oerjan> my windows clock is within the same minute as nvg's linux servers
20:22:53 -!- ehird has left (?).
20:22:57 -!- ehird has joined.
20:23:07 <oerjan> i haven't checked whether it is more accurate than that.
20:23:21 <pikhq> Yeah, that's how crappy Windows NTP is.
20:23:24 <zzo38> The next time I upgrade my operating system it won't be Windows, it will be a Linux distribution of my own design
20:23:44 <oerjan> pikhq: because i don't have a _need_ for it, silly :D
20:23:47 <pikhq> They take a protocol that makes it easy to get sub-second accuracy and make it get minute accuracy.
20:24:08 <pikhq> zzo38: See, that's where you're dumb.
20:24:10 <oerjan> it could very well be on the second.
20:28:13 <oerjan> my clock seems to be up to a second late, but not more.
20:28:40 <zzo38> If you send FINGER, did you receive the number after the colon? What number did you get?
20:29:48 <zzo38> The number after the colon is the idle time (counting only what the user actually typed to the server)
20:31:30 <oerjan> i interpreted that as "the user id is 43" :D
20:32:32 <oerjan> i suppose user is your actual username. given how my windows username happened to be the norwegian translation of that.
20:32:42 <zzo38> It might seem so, but if you send another time you might get a different answer and you can know that is not it.
20:32:49 <zzo38> Yes, "user" is my actual username
20:33:50 <zzo38> I can see you just did that. It does display the message on the screen even if it auto-answer (it also displays the "AUTO ANSWERED" so I can know it did auto-answered)
20:36:22 <oerjan> irssi does the first (in a different window) and also says "Unknown CTCP" if it doesn't know about it.
20:37:46 <oerjan> (except ACTION which is in the same window of course)
20:45:27 <oerjan> <ehird> Yay, \[\prod_{k=n}^m x = x_n \times x_{n+1} \times \ldots \times x_{m-1} \times x_m\] typesets properly. <-- i'm not quite sure but i think i would have used \cdots there.
20:45:40 <ehird> yeah i realiſed ðat recently
20:45:49 <ehird> ugh ðat φilter's ſtill ðere
20:47:33 <zzo38> Do you think PHIRC is good IRC client?
20:47:50 <zzo38> Unfortunately there is no documentation yet
20:48:38 <ehird> It's written in ΦP and preliminary eſtimates ſuggeſt ðat ðere are 5 billion conφiguration options.
20:49:20 <zzo38> Why is your writing replaced with other symbols?
20:49:43 <ehird> Which is "sophisticated".
20:49:54 <zzo38> O, I knew what it meant
20:50:08 <ehird> It's Olde Engliſh, Icelandic and ſtuφφ and Greek.
20:50:14 <ehird> Which means I'm, like, 3x ðe ſoφiſtication.
20:50:15 <zzo38> I can tell. PuTTY does support UTF-8 and will display it correctly
20:50:20 <ehird> Even iφ I'm not ſure "φφ" is valid.
20:50:41 <oerjan> ehird: that http://filebin.ca/gyhqza/sums-and-products.pdf
20:50:51 <oerjan> looks a bit wrong to me
20:50:52 <ehird> oerjan: look at ðe reviſed one
20:50:58 <ehird> but what looks wrong about it
20:51:12 <ehird> apart φrom not being \cdots
20:52:06 <zzo38> PHIRC actually has only 5 configuration options so far, and 16 slash-commands. If you put a slash it is interpret by client, if there is no slash then it will be sent to the server
20:52:15 <oerjan> the bare x to the left of the equation sign
20:52:34 <oerjan> it needs a k index in both cases
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20:54:37 <oerjan> bah why don't i read two lines down before commenting :D
20:56:32 <zzo38> O, and it does display asterisks when you are typing your password.
20:58:04 <zzo38> It types asterisks, and green, if your command is PASS or /PASS even though there is no /PASS command. It might seem weird but it is possible to add /PASS command by add-in file
20:58:35 <oerjan> the answer, of course, is my neurotic fear of forgetting i was going to comment.
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21:15:30 * ehird teaches emacs and LaTeX to a non-programmer at the same time.
21:15:38 <ehird> It's like juggling but harder.
21:19:31 <oerjan> real juggling requires three balls. try adding some haskell.
21:20:22 * oerjan cackles evilly. literally.
21:20:38 <pikhq> oerjan: I suspect that'd be easier for a non-programmer, *initially*.
21:20:48 <ehird> pikhq: Well, he is a math guy, so.
21:20:51 <pikhq> Simply because they have no expectations of how things work at all.
21:21:04 <ehird> Let's just call LaTeX his gateway drug to programming :P
21:21:13 <pikhq> Of course, that's only starting out.
21:21:36 <pikhq> Unless the guy is into category theory, monads will freak him out longer than is usual. :P
21:21:53 <pikhq> Oh, and corecursion might also do that.
21:22:01 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah.
21:22:36 <pikhq> > do {x <- (+1); y <- (+x); return (x,y)} $ 3 -- what's so hard about that?
21:22:48 <ehird> pikhq: Corecursion is easy.
21:22:51 <ehird> It's not anything special.
21:22:54 <ehird> it's just infinite data structures, really
21:22:56 <pikhq> ehird: For programmers, sure.
21:23:08 <pikhq> I change my statement.
21:23:16 <ehird> mathematics has it too
21:23:17 <pikhq> s/corecursion/recursion/
21:23:23 <ehird> Mathematics has recursion, dood.
21:23:46 <pikhq> And most people don't know enough math to get recursion.
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21:25:20 <pikhq> In that case, the only hard part is going to be monads.
21:25:31 <oerjan> to get recursion, you must first get recursion.
21:25:47 <ehird> pikhq: data Z = Integer
21:25:52 <ehird> Call every function "f".
21:25:59 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, the idea of a "type system" might be slightly tricky.
21:26:00 <ehird> Put extraneous parentheses and pass multiple arguments in tuples.
21:26:05 <ehird> pikhq: Uh, mathematical functions are typed.
21:26:17 <ehird> You see "f : ℕ → ℕ" all the time.
21:26:38 <pikhq> ehird: I'm not sure what level of knowledge is involved here.
21:26:50 <ehird> Although you usually use "f : ℕ × ℕ → ℕ".
21:26:53 <pikhq> Is this someone that was competent at high-school mathematics, or an actual math geek?
21:26:59 <ehird> Which would be (Integer,Integer) -> Integer, of course.
21:27:44 <pikhq> If it was the former, they've probably only seen functions on the reals and the complex numbers. Types are brain-breaking from that background.
21:27:58 <ehird> Well, I don't think you get many higher-order functions in mathematics.
21:28:16 <pikhq> Lambda calculus is math.
21:28:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:28:24 <ehird> So is all programming.
21:28:50 <pikhq> Some of it is more formal than others, of course.
21:32:45 <AnMaster> argh, copying track names from a cd sleeve is hard for me.... Since I'm used to touch typing I can't type *without* looking at the screen.
21:32:57 <ehird> you're not used to touch typing
21:33:01 <ehird> you just get your feedback after the fact.
21:33:09 <ehird> touch typing is simply not needing to look.
21:33:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I can type without looking, just my head constantly wants to pull away and look at the screen, automatically.
21:34:21 <oerjan> integration and derivation are higher-order functions, you know :)
21:34:29 <pikhq> I often-times carry on a conversation, talking to someone else, doing the eye contact bit and everything, while still talking. It kinda surprises people that I can do that, but. :)
21:34:39 <ehird> oerjan: you don't think of them as functions though, reall.
21:34:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, and many people don't realise this at all. ;)
21:35:03 <ehird> pikhq: Let me confirm. Your third-last statement is a way of saying:
21:35:09 <ehird> "I can carry on a conversation normally."?
21:35:38 <pikhq> No; talking to someone IRL while typing on the computer.
21:35:43 <ehird> That's what I meant.
21:35:53 <ehird> I can't, but that's just because my conversation engine is singletasking.
21:36:08 <pikhq> Bah, single-tasking.
21:36:23 <ehird> I can't help it. If you want to talk to me, you'd better be prepared to wait a minute. :)
21:36:32 <oerjan> pikhq: http://xkcd.com/604/
21:36:45 <ehird> i get that but i also can't type any more
21:54:08 <oklopol> usually when i try to multitask conversations, i stop both conversations.
21:54:20 <oklopol> and wait for one of them to end
21:57:27 <oklopol> i've been asked to ask you guys to takl
21:58:36 <oklopol> judging by all the squirming, somesorta worm.
21:59:02 <ehird> is this person, like, in here
21:59:23 <ehird> why'd they want us to talk :D
21:59:30 <ehird> also are you implying it's you.
22:00:16 <ehird> dear person watching the screen: YOU'RE A DICK.
22:00:35 <pikhq> oklopol: Kon'nitiha. Hazimemasite? Dōzo yorosiku onegaisimasu.
22:01:08 <oklopol> oerjan: in calculus, while integration and derivation are higher-order functions in the sense that they are functions on functions, there's a clear separation of functions that are data and the -ations them selves
22:01:17 <pikhq> oklopol: Saluton! Kiel vi fartas?
22:01:46 <oklopol> "hello! how do we travel?"
22:02:16 <oklopol> so... not completely correct?
22:02:45 <pikhq> Standard introduction.
22:02:49 <oklopol> you can also translate the esperanto in case there were subtle errors
22:03:00 <pikhq> "Hi! How are you?"
22:03:21 <oklopol> can you specify that a bit
22:03:50 <pikhq> Farti, IIRC, was "fare", not "travel". :P
22:04:03 <pikhq> If it's not, then I feel dumb.
22:04:15 <oklopol> do realize i don't know even one word of esperanto
22:04:56 <oklopol> and "travel" was a joke, although admittedly i didn't come up with fare
22:06:04 <oklopol> just making sure... for some reason
22:06:11 <ehird> oklopol: PERSON ON SCREEN IS BITCH ASS
22:06:53 <oklopol> ehird: aren't you the one who's on screen?
22:08:06 <pikhq> Deewiant: In the imperative sense.
22:16:44 <ehird> oerjan: hm do you \usepackage{amsmath}? it doesn't help that _I'm_ lerning latex too
22:16:54 <ehird> amssymb+amsmath seems to fuck up fonts here
22:17:23 <oerjan> i may have done, when i actually wrote stuff
22:19:06 <oerjan> oklopol: tangent spaces of manifolds can be defined as consisting of derivation operators. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_space#Definition_via_derivations
22:19:34 <oerjan> so no, there is not a clear separation.
22:22:48 <oklopol> i just meant in the usual bore-calculus.
22:23:19 <oklopol> i don't really know anything about manifolds yet, have to wait till sunday
22:23:21 <ehird> has anyone used auctex?
22:23:29 <ehird> what's the command to run latex? i can only get it from the mode menu
22:35:20 <ehird> http://imgur.com/qy8jN.jpg
22:36:14 <pikhq> Or if you're using xetex, xelatex
22:36:17 <ehird> pikhq: Congratulations! I give you the Does Not Know What AUCTeX Is award.
22:36:22 <ehird> Also Didn't Check Before Answering. :P
23:00:10 <oerjan> ehird: ah i see you found out where all my vague recalls come from
23:02:55 * oerjan starts scanning the reddit alien soap comments for the obligatory "but is it made from _real_ reddit aliens?"
23:06:00 <oerjan> s/scanning/slowly crawling through/
23:09:27 <ehird> oerjan: hmm in mathematics is there actually a difference between x_n and x(n)?
23:09:36 <ehird> there never seems to be
23:10:46 <oerjan> i guess it sort of depends on whether it's intuitively an index or not.
23:11:31 <ehird> oerjan: does it makes sense to say 'x : N -> N' if it's x_n?
23:12:01 <oerjan> well, it may not be correct style
23:12:38 <oerjan> probably depends on subject, like everything else
23:13:35 <oerjan> i suppose this is sort of a kind of weak typing, just to guide intuition
23:15:05 <ehird> wow, doing multiline equations in latex is a pain
23:16:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm at 282 edits now. :P And I added something that wasn't classical music last.
23:16:51 <AnMaster> but still nothing you will ever have heard of
23:16:53 * ehird attempts to figure out \begin{align} in latex
23:17:02 <ehird> I'm just trying to align the : of a type of a function and its definition
23:17:12 <ehird> pikhq: and I can't figure out how :D
23:17:34 <ehird> the : is aligning to the start of the =
23:17:37 <ehird> as opposed to the middle
23:18:06 <AnMaster> ehird, translated title is roughly (but with the puns lost): "The best of Povel Ramel". He was a Swedish comedian and jazz musician. Most of his works would be untranslatable.
23:18:19 <ehird> oerjan: first result on google is "Avoid eqnarray!"
23:18:22 <ehird> colour me unimperssed :)
23:18:35 <ehird> Abstract Whenever the eqnarray environment appears in a question or an example
23:18:35 <ehird> of a problem on comp.text.tex or the TEXhax mailing list there is a large
23:18:36 <ehird> chance that someone will tell the poster not to use eqnarray. This article
23:18:38 <ehird> will provide some examples of why many of us consider eqnarray to be
23:18:40 <ehird> harmful and why it should not be used.
23:18:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that was a boxed set of 5 cds. Did you know what the titles ended up like thanks ot MB guidelines?
23:19:06 <AnMaster> Det bästa av Povels mångsidor: Karamelodier i kategorier (disc 4: Tvålar, Corkar och kokosnötter: Povel - Bearbetaren)
23:19:24 <ehird> looks quite sane to me.
23:19:27 <AnMaster> ehird, couldn't use , for newline in the subtitle of the disc, since that was already used in the title
23:19:53 <AnMaster> , seems to be used quite often for that otherwise
23:20:04 <AnMaster> - was used too in the title as you can see
23:20:43 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and google translate won't be much use. Two made up words.
23:22:55 * oerjan doesn't have a coconut to fail at opening :(
23:25:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, Are you flying though?
23:26:27 * oerjan cannot find the lyrics to it either
23:26:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, Possibly with a cone filled with caramels?
23:27:07 <oerjan> is this the same song? i don't recall _that_ many povel ramel songs...
23:27:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, are you at Blue Hawaii?
23:27:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, not *exact* names. Some got lost in translation
23:27:47 <oerjan> blue hawaii rings a bell, but isn't that vikingarna or something?
23:27:53 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:28:15 <AnMaster> "Titta jag flyger", "Tänk dig en strut karameller", "Vårt eget Blue Hawaii", and you mented "Far jag kan inte få upp min kokosnöt"
23:28:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, But whatever you do, don't buy a zebra? Ok?
23:28:36 <oerjan> ah so blue hawaii _is_ his
23:29:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you remember that one? It is hilarious :)
23:29:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, why not listen to something happy? Like a blues?
23:29:58 <AnMaster> "Köp inte en zebra" and "En glad blues"
23:30:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have a book with music sheets and lyrics for a lot (far from all of course) by Povel Ramel
23:31:16 <AnMaster> I read somewhere that Povel Ramel was more productive than Mozart even, if you count in number of different music pieces!
23:31:41 <oerjan> that may well be. i happened to look at his wikipedia page the other day
23:32:06 <AnMaster> (of course, it could be argued that in most cases Mozart's works were much longer, having several movements and so on)
23:32:37 <AnMaster> I never seen any "total bar count" or "total note count" for either.
23:33:03 <oerjan> i was looking through the novelty songs category, and came upon the original english song kokosnöttar was translated from
23:34:14 <oerjan> "I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts"
23:34:29 <Slereah> Everyone is sitting in a row!
23:34:48 <Slereah> Give them a twist, a flick of the wrist, that's what the showman said!
23:35:30 <oerjan> same melody i assume, but the text is quite different
23:35:55 <ehird> I seem to be getting a little better at TeX.
23:36:29 <oerjan> and although i can only recall the beginning, i vaguely think ramel's was funnier than that
23:36:52 <Slereah> oerjan : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzeE0YysV0
23:41:05 <oerjan> now what michael jackson was doing in there i cannot say.
23:41:31 <Slereah> Maybe it's a joke on Michael Jackson being white
23:41:38 <Slereah> (If you know the ethnic slur coconut)
23:42:27 * oerjan wonders about the comment claiming it isn't monty python anyway
23:43:27 <ehird> Merv Griffin's recording with Freddie Martin and His Orchestra is often miscredited to Monty Python on the Internet. The Martin/Griffin version reached the Billboard retail Top 10 and is widely reported to be a million-seller.
23:43:45 <oerjan> ooh i spelled kokosnöt wrong
23:44:51 * oerjan throws a coconut at pikhq (@)
23:45:04 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:45:59 <ehird> "I came home Sunday and immediately fell asleep. I dreamt of an army of monkeys. Not The Army of The Twelve Monkeys, just a run-of-the-mill army of an indeterminate number of monkeys. Not an infinite number of monkeys, although the monkeys were willing to commit suicide by solving an infinite number of simultaneous equations. They were ascending a staircase of some sort. A golden staircase, ascending to Heaven. Good Lord, not a Stairway To Heaven, but ye
23:46:02 <ehird> s, there was a stairway involved, and Heaven. And monkeys. Perhaps it was a non-golden staircase, but began its ascent from the Golden Gate Bridge. But there were definitely monkeys. Monkeys solving an infinite number of simultaneous equations, and then dying. They were mathematical martyrs. Mathematical martyr monkeys."
23:46:28 <oerjan> ok ramel's lyrics are _definitely_ funnier
23:46:35 * pikhq throws an IO Coconut at oerjan.
23:46:48 <pikhq> That one can have side effects!
23:46:57 * oerjan refuses to go near the IO monad, so there!
23:47:17 * pikhq returns oerjan in the IO monad
23:49:05 <ehird> Oleg's a true Monad a.
23:50:52 <ehird> Monad a → alpha monad
23:50:59 <ehird> it's not really funny
23:51:01 <ehird> it's soooooo funny
23:51:13 <pikhq> ... Oleg's an instance of monad, eh?
23:51:22 <ehird> NO THAT IS NOT THE JOKE YOU SUCK
23:51:59 <oerjan> the other way around, possibly.
23:52:02 <ehird> pikhq: LEARN DE JOKE
23:52:54 <oerjan> apparently ehird can no longer distinguish greek and roman letters.
23:54:41 <pikhq> ehird: Functor off.
23:58:00 <oerjan> augur will be so pleased.
23:59:57 <ehird> Hey, I don't think sucking is some sort of uncommon action. :-P
00:00:10 * augur gives ehird a lollipop.
00:01:09 <augur> its one of those cream lollipops that are like .. oranges and cream/peaches and cream/strawberries and cream/etc.
00:01:17 <augur> its also in the shape of a penis.
00:01:24 <augur> put it in your mouth, ehird.
00:01:30 <augur> put the creamy penis lollipop in your mouth.
00:01:36 <augur> dont you want it in your mouth?
00:01:56 <ehird> You know, I don't think penises are anything like lollipops aside from being vaguely stick-shaped.
00:02:14 <augur> except when the lollipop is shaped to look like a penis, ehir.
00:02:17 <pikhq> ehird: This one is emphatically a phallic lollipop.
00:02:47 <ehird> You know, I don't think even phallus-shaped lollipops are much like penises.
00:02:59 <augur> not MUCH but enough!
00:03:18 <pikhq> Except when 'lollipop' is being used as a euphemism for phallus.
00:03:24 <ehird> From this we can conclude that the most important aspect of a penis is its shape. If it looks vaguely phallus shaped, then it's a good penis.
00:03:26 <ehird> Otherwise, it's not.
00:04:33 <ehird> Hey, blame augur, not me.
00:05:01 <pikhq> From this we can conclude that Freud was right, and everything can be interpreted as either a phallus or a receptacle thereof.
00:05:28 <oerjan> but what about breasts?
00:05:32 <ehird> Bricks are phalluses.
00:05:38 <ehird> Or are they phallus receptacles?
00:05:40 <Warrigal> Is the number 0 a phallus or a receptacle?
00:05:47 <pikhq> ehird: Breasts are worked in there somehow.
00:05:55 <ehird> I didn't ask about breasts, oerjan did.
00:05:56 <pikhq> Warrigal: What does it look like?
00:06:00 <ehird> Breasts are phallus receptacles if you turn them inside out.
00:06:05 <ehird> Make them hollow first.
00:06:20 <ehird> pikhq: It's both vaguely cigar-shaped and a hole.
00:06:31 <Warrigal> It looks like the point right in the middle of the number line, when centered the obvious way.
00:07:18 <Warrigal> I'm not sure what color it is. White or gray, I think.
00:07:43 <pikhq> ehird: Clearly, it is in a superposition of imagery states.
00:07:59 <pikhq> And can be said to represent unclear genders.
00:12:08 <Warrigal> It's like there are little two little tendrils that move toward each other, but they shy away at the very last moment, leaving the tiniest possible gap in between them.
00:12:36 <Warrigal> So, uh, maybe zero represents conversion to heterosexuality.
00:13:05 <pikhq> Warrigal: Conversion from one to the other, more like?
00:13:36 <Warrigal> One is the same, except that one of the partners is precariously perched so that its head is below its feet. It's still staring the other in the face.
00:14:01 <Warrigal> And the other is lying down on a sort of ramp that slopes upward a bit.
00:15:05 <Warrigal> And e, there's a simple description of e.
00:15:13 <Warrigal> If 1 were a penis, e would be the same penis, erect.
00:17:16 <Warrigal> By that logic, I guess 0 is the lack of any external reproductive organs at all.
00:17:31 <ehird> How is e an erect 1?
00:17:35 <ehird> Wouldn't it be the other way around?
00:21:25 <Warrigal> pi represents masturbation, but in a really silly way.
00:21:59 <Warrigal> Or maybe it represents the female sex, or the act of sex itself.
00:28:31 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
00:29:21 <ehird> ALL THESE NICKNAMES
00:29:23 <ehird> THEY MAKE NO SENSE
00:29:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I just was surprised he didn't use his usual
00:29:53 <ehird> A 3 second google suggests that it's an old nickname for someone.
00:30:01 <Gracenotes> IN THE GRIM FUTURE OF HELLO KITTY THERE IS ONLY WAR
00:30:03 <ehird> I postulate that GregorR is too lazy to replace his paypal account.
00:30:10 <ehird> Also, I postulate that he doesn't give a fuck.
00:30:18 <ehird> I postulate a lot of things.
00:31:25 <oerjan> Gracenotes: sickeningly cute war, but nevertheless?
00:31:59 <ehird> http://onastick.net/sitz/images/HK40K.jpg
00:32:26 <oerjan> I postulate that AKAQuinn is actually a terrorist organization which GregorR supports
00:32:35 <ehird> I postulate anuses for a living.
00:33:36 <Gracenotes> so I'm thinking I should watch the Hellsing OVAs
00:36:09 <Gracenotes> and also this ratatat song is reminding of Tubular Bells
00:36:18 <ehird> tubular bells kinda sucks
00:36:43 <Gracenotes> actually most ratatat songs reminds me of Tubular Bells
00:36:55 <Gracenotes> remind. and how can you say that about tubular bells! .;[
00:37:06 <ehird> cuz mike oldfield sucks.
00:37:39 <ehird> erm mike oldfield made tubular bells
00:38:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, there? A hg bundle for you!
00:39:07 <Gracenotes> your attack on the composer cannot discredit tubular bells
00:39:20 <ehird> it's a shit album Gracenotes
00:40:10 <Gracenotes> seriously, if you had to commit suicide, wouldn't you want to be listening to tubular bells? That's how good of an album it is
00:42:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, I assume you can handle signing by PGP/MIME. If not please tell me so I can resend the mail unsigned :P
00:43:28 <ehird> why on earth does a commit need to be signed
00:43:35 <ehird> it's not like he'd blindly trust all code coming from you
00:44:14 <ehird> ...do you seriously have to ask that?
00:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have it set as default.
00:44:51 <ehird> the time it took to ask >= the time it would take to disable
00:45:03 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, I already sent it by then
00:45:49 <AnMaster> ehird, plus, every commit of cfunge is signed. I have bzr set up that way.
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01:27:32 <Gracenotes> okay ehird, tubular bells is only okay if feel in the mood for it
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03:49:45 <Warrigal> How does the initial "h" of the Spanish noun "hermandad", "brotherhood", come from the initial "g" of the Latin "germanitas"?
03:52:35 <oerjan> also, i recall "hijo" comes from "filius"
03:53:03 <Warrigal> And "halcón" from "falco" (genitive "falconis").
03:53:22 <Warrigal> Does Latin have any doubled vowels? If not, I will freely write that "falcoonis".
03:54:12 <oerjan> latin has long and short vowels, not reflected in spelling. it also has doubled ones, like in "filii" (genitive of "filius")
03:55:54 * Warrigal looks up the Spanish word "afiliado", to make sure it exists.
03:56:10 <Warrigal> Not having that word would simply be inexcusable.
03:58:44 <oerjan> also "vacuum", i cannot recall any with "oo"
03:59:19 <Warrigal> u and i are the vowels you would expect to be doubled.
04:00:57 <Warrigal> My mom says, "I wonder if I've got a plenum."
04:01:04 <oerjan> "creem", subjunctive present of "creo", create
04:01:20 * Warrigal ponders Spanish doubled vowels.
04:01:56 * Warrigal notes that words such as "cocinándoos" don't exist, according to his fourth-year Spanish teacher.
04:02:09 <Warrigal> (Which is a good thing, as that word is a pretty evil word.)
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05:40:32 <lament> spanish double vowels are weird, it's not supposed to have any
05:41:30 <lament> Warrigal: coordinación
05:44:51 <Warrigal> Why isn't that prefix con- instead of co-, anyway?
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06:12:19 <Warrigal> You know, only a linguist would come up with a writing system involving such things as m̥̄ and h̥₁.
06:12:30 <Warrigal> My font doesn't even have ₁ in it.
06:17:18 <pikhq> Warrigal: Funny, it seems to me to be close to what I'd come up with.
06:17:51 <pikhq> (well, I'd use different graphemes, no doubt, but... It's the most elegant solution, IPA...)
06:18:39 <Warrigal> Would you use the letter h with three different subscript numbers rather than just coming up with three different letters for that sound?
06:19:01 <pikhq> ... You're not discussing IPA.
06:19:42 <pikhq> IPA is what linguists came up with. And it has different characters for different phonemes.
06:19:54 <pikhq> (it also, last I checked, could represent all phonemes)
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07:52:26 <lament> what's the IPA character for queefs?
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08:18:57 <augur> lament: a small m-width character spelling "ehird" in tall thin letters.
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11:16:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, I can't enter initial space?
11:33:32 <fizzie> I would guess some part of it trims the space between !command and argument.
11:34:14 <AnMaster> !befunge98 aaaaaaaaa********.a,@
11:34:43 <AnMaster> (yes it can be sorter, just checking I got the number right)
11:36:10 <AnMaster> !befunge98 aa*:*aa*:*a**** .a,@
11:36:19 <AnMaster> !befunge98 aa*:*aa*:*a*** .a,@
11:36:47 <fizzie> !befunge98 a::*:**.a,@
11:37:26 <fizzie> !befunge98 a::*:*:**.a,@
11:37:35 <fizzie> I always forget to print.
11:38:29 <fizzie> Yours has an extra * at the end.
11:38:36 <fizzie> !befunge98 aa*:*:*a* .a,@
11:39:16 <fizzie> !befunge98 'd:*:*a* .a,@
11:40:12 <fizzie> Don't think it will go much shorter than that, since it's just "(100^2)^2*10" which is very simple already.
11:42:50 <fizzie> !haskell 5*(100^2)^2*10-2^32
11:43:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm a question, to reverse a text for use in befunge rev(1) is useful. Like producing something like ".elbahcaernu eb dluohs sihT :DAB"
11:43:28 <AnMaster> but what about producing a vertical one?
11:43:34 <AnMaster> is there any pre-written app for it?
11:46:18 <fizzie> I don't know of one. Something like perl -ne 'print "$_\n" foreach split //;' seems to work, with a ... split //, reverse($_); variant if one wants the string the other way around. Unless you want a multi-line piece of text into a multi-column vertical version, but that doesn't sound so very useful either.
11:46:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about non-cardinal deltas?
11:47:13 <fizzie> But feel free to programmize an arbitrary-delta string-outputter.
11:47:14 <AnMaster> anyway, it needs to handle " " -> " ":
11:47:56 <fizzie> A good Befunge IDE should be able to do it.
11:48:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, going to make a cardinal one first that also handles the SGML spaces and newlines (adding ..."a"... where needed)
11:48:25 <ais523> AnMaster: there's an Emacs mode for typing in the orthogonal and diagonal directions
11:48:28 <fizzie> Well, a hypothetical good Befunge IDE. I'm not aware of any.
11:48:37 <fizzie> Yes, I almost wrote "I'm sure Emacs can do it".
11:49:17 <fizzie> I think some of the Befunge systems with editor included also let you set the delta, though possibly only to <>v^ if it was a -93 one, which sounds likely.
11:50:49 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. What mode is that?
11:54:18 <fizzie> Aw, even in picture-mode the mark/point-region highlight is still line-based; I was hoping for an actual highlight rectangle, like you get for ^v in Vim.
11:56:23 <AnMaster> ^v <-- avoiding thread collisions? ;P
11:56:34 <AnMaster> ooh that might be a fun variation of concurrent befunge
11:57:33 <AnMaster> if an IP is hit from the side for example it's course might alter according the *roughly* physical laws.
11:57:54 <AnMaster> head on? Hm I wonder how elastic IPs are. Either they bounce or they come to a dead stop
12:02:31 <fizzie> Ooh. "If you use both transient-mark-mode and picture-mode, you will probably realize how convenient it would be to be able to highlight the region between point and mark as a rectangle. Have you ever wished you could see where exactly those other two corners fell before you operated on a rectangle? If so, then this program is for you."
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13:18:29 <ehird> 10:43 AnMaster: is there any pre-written app for it?
13:18:30 <ehird> 10:43 AnMaster: if not I guess I'll write one
13:18:31 <ehird> it is after all a heavy duty task...
13:21:29 <ehird> ais523: being a microchip sorta persony thingy, what do you think of http://colorforth.com/vlsi.html? it's chuck moore's chip design to production environment from scratch written in 500 lines of colorforth, and there's actually a mini supercomputer (9 chips with 40 computers, so 360 computers, running at native silicon speed, using 1W total: http://colorforth.com/S40.htm and http://colorforth.com/haypress.htm) and is being used to design the http://colo
13:21:32 <ehird> rforth.com/GA.htm chips (more "massively parallel, native silicon, low power usage" stuff)?
13:21:41 <ehird> i mean, aren't most chip design environments huge? :D
13:22:09 <ais523> they don't need to be huge, but all the major ones are controlled by companies with the Visual Studio mentality
13:22:51 <ehird> ais523: still - from scratch to producing a tiny supercomputer in 500 lines? (remember that colorforth lines are, say, 40 chars are less)
13:23:15 <ais523> you can do a simple microprocessor in about 100 lines of VHDL
13:23:17 <ais523> and VHDL is really verbose
13:23:29 <ehird> ais523: oh, that's not at all what it is
13:23:39 <ais523> ah yes, a design environment
13:23:48 <ehird> it's like implementing vhdl
13:23:54 <ehird> and then giving it a design UI to boot
13:24:55 <ehird> ais523: i just can't imagine it being so small and yet able to do such a thing so easily
13:25:15 <ehird> so much for AnMaster's "yeah but colorforth isn't usable for anything practical" iguess :)
13:25:17 <ais523> people have written C compilers in the IOCCC's byte limit before
13:25:38 <ehird> ais523: i would have thought a complete chip design environment good enough to design a supercomputer would be quite large
13:25:58 <ais523> I wonder how good the resulting supercomputer is?
13:26:00 <ehird> a choice quote from the page, on the layout step: "This requires megabytes of RAM."
13:26:03 <ehird> ais523: i gave you links
13:26:11 <ais523> yep, which to me implies that it's doing layout by bruteforcing
13:26:18 <ais523> admittedly, that's how the commercial systems do it too
13:26:30 <ehird> ais523: the blog shows him getting a lot of results, though
13:26:44 <ehird> ais523: and them being desynchronized in speed because they don't have clocks is cool
13:26:54 <ehird> chuck moore is awesome
13:27:12 <ehird> i wonder how come it only uses 1w? ("It's providing 1.8 V on Supply A with some huge current capability. I've long lost the user's manual. As long as it gives me 500 mA, I'm fine for Haypress Creek. Hey DARPA, here's your 1 W supercomputer!")
13:27:17 <ais523> actually, what shocks me is how limited the commercial systems are for how bloated they are
13:27:31 <ais523> and it's probably relatively slow if it has a power consumption that low
13:27:36 <ais523> just due to the laws of physics
13:27:42 <ehird> ais523: "Total of 360 computers running at 700 Mips or 250 Gips."
13:27:55 <ehird> doesn't sound slow to me
13:28:04 <ais523> that's slow for a supercomputer, isn't it?
13:28:13 <ehird> ais523: it's a mini supercomputer. it's 8x8
13:28:31 <ehird> ais523: it's about as fast as a graphics card, I think; except standalone, and you could daisy chain them
13:28:46 <ehird> get 200 and you have something way more powerful than a graphics card with the same power consumption
13:28:54 <ehird> ais523: the idea is to be an _embedded_ supercomputer
13:29:08 <ais523> and I think he could pull it off
13:29:10 <ehird> same thing that greenarrays: http://colorforth.com/GA.htm are doing
13:29:20 <ehird> (considering that's the continuation after the company f'd him over)
13:29:34 <ehird> "The GA4 uses a few milliwatts while running and a few microwatts asleep."
13:29:40 <ehird> 4 computers, 2mm^2
13:30:13 <ehird> ais523: it seems that the main thing about the lower poer is "Low power results from our computer (one node of an array) being asynchronous (unclocked)"
13:30:38 <ais523> aha, so it can slow down to conserve power when not running at 100% CPU
13:30:55 <ehird> ais523: from what i've read, they're saying it simply doesn't have a clock
13:31:00 <ehird> and runs however fast the electrons want it to
13:31:03 <ais523> and it's very rare for all the nodes of a supercomputer to be at full CPU all the time, as they have to wait for memory
13:31:11 <ehird> ofc i could be vastly misinterpreting
13:31:22 <ais523> asynchronous design has a sort-of clock
13:31:34 <ais523> it's sort of a chain of one signal to the next, rather than a regular clock sent everywhere
13:31:54 <ais523> it's a lot more hectic and incoherent than a synchronous design
13:32:24 <ehird> i wish Moore and Knuth weren't so old (same age, actually)... TAOCP will probably never be finished :p
13:34:29 <ehird> http://secamlocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/mrwatkin/zeta/caveney.txt // i'm convinced
13:34:41 <lament> i wish YOURMOM wasn't so old!
13:41:15 <AnMaster> <ehird> so much for AnMaster's "yeah but colorforth isn't usable for anything practical" iguess :) <-- I never claimed that... What I might have said is that it is impractical for general purpose programs running under a normal OS. IIRC.
13:41:37 <ehird> that may have been what you meant; that's not what you said.
13:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, for an embedded environment it might make sense
13:42:23 <ehird> he designed the chips on a regular computer.
13:42:32 <ehird> you know. a regular system.
13:42:41 <ehird> AnMaster: but feel free to reimplement it in, say, 500 lines of C
13:42:42 <AnMaster> ehird, an embedded system might have a monitor though. Just think of mobile phones,
13:42:44 <ehird> like, just call me back
13:42:53 <ehird> (great, I've finally got rid of AnMaster for good)
13:43:13 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc that colorforth implementation I saw ran on "bare hardware"
13:43:26 <AnMaster> as opposed to running under, say, linux, windows, *BSD or whatever
13:43:32 <ehird> it's an operating system
13:43:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But a rather primitive such currently at least.
13:43:59 <AnMaster> with primitive here I mean hardware support
13:44:10 <ehird> as i said, http://colorforth.com/vlsi.html
13:44:22 <ehird> 500 lines of C where the lines are 40 characters or less
13:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird, but stuff like DMA for disks, good ethernet support for most common on-board ones and PCI ones and so on
13:45:09 <ehird> AnMaster: let me make sure I understand your statement.
13:45:12 <AnMaster> not supporting 3D acceleration is not included in this set of course.
13:45:43 <ehird> <AnMaster> ColorForth is useless for designing microchips because it doesn't have good ethernet support (which I assert without proof or source, presumably finding it obvious whether it's true or not).
13:45:49 <AnMaster> ehird, as a general purpose OS that any random user could use on his/her pc colorforth is rather lacking.
13:46:18 <ehird> so it turns out that talking to a brick wall is more productive than talking to AnMaster.
13:46:22 <AnMaster> ehird, how where they the same thing?
13:47:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you claimed "<ehird> so much for AnMaster's "yeah but colorforth isn't usable for anything practical" iguess :) <AnMaster> <ehird> so much for AnMaster's "yeah but colorforth isn't usable for anything practical" iguess :) <-- I never claimed that... What I might have said is that it is impractical for general purpose programs running under a normal OS. IIRC. <ehird> he designed the chips on a r
13:47:01 <AnMaster> egular computer." <-- and I'm clarifying what I meant exactly there.
13:47:10 <AnMaster> ehird, you are the brick wall here
13:47:18 <AnMaster> who continues talking about this specific case
13:47:30 <AnMaster> even when the discussion shifted.
13:48:23 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, with your mentality it is more like you having a monologue...
13:49:18 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, I hope you now understand what part I meant colorforth was lacking in. But if you disagree... why not switch from OS X to colorforth right now? Install it on your mac alongside OS X...
13:49:24 <ehird> i wonder when AnMaster will realise i never actually talk to him with an intent to discuss because he has a piece of wetware that puts itself into an eternal feedback loop after N time
13:49:43 <ehird> ooh, i see AnMaster's figured out how to use the strawman fallacy
13:51:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not saying colorforth is useless for everything. Just not as a general purpose OS. That meaning something like linux, windows, OS X, *BSD and even plan9 (plus a few more)
13:51:25 <AnMaster> and that is what I said all along
13:51:44 <ehird> you're claiming that plan 9 works as a general purpose os where colorforth doesn't?
13:51:49 <ehird> either you understand one or neither.
13:51:57 <ehird> *misunderstand one or both
13:52:10 <AnMaster> ehird, in theory, it could need a bit more drives and such to support modern hardware
13:53:18 <AnMaster> it has quite decent support for a bit older hardware. But when I last looked (about a year ago or so iirc) colorforth wasn't even close
13:56:23 <AnMaster> ehird, porting a posix program to run under plan9 would probably be way easier than doing the same for colorforth for example. And that suddenly means there are lots of apps you could port with a moderate amount of work. Wikipedia even claims there is some "linuxemu" being worked on to run linux binaries under plan9.
14:12:51 <ehird> "Plus, if you generate more energy than you use, the electricity company will pay you!"
14:12:55 <ehird> http://www.power4home.com/index.php?hop=ttinc1
14:13:09 <ehird> I especially like the juxtaposition of the solar panels and a ton of snow.
14:13:15 <ehird> well okay not a ton of snow whatever
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14:45:09 <ehird> Hey, a fysh.org link.
14:45:12 <ehird> Not Zefram, though.
14:53:52 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
14:53:55 <ehird> fungot: Punish comex.
14:53:55 <fungot> ehird: this rule. this rule takes precedence over any rule which would cause that entity
14:53:57 <ehird> fungot: Punish comex.
14:53:58 <fungot> ehird: the damages from the
14:53:59 <ehird> fungot: Punish comex.
14:54:00 <fungot> ehird: there is an order. it shall be its judge by announcement. quorum for an appelate judge is recused, and an indication is a contract
14:54:05 <ehird> fungot: Punish comex.
14:54:05 <fungot> ehird: ii) one second before the promotor may make agreements among themselves with the clerk of the organization would require
14:54:08 <ehird> fungot: Punish comex.
14:54:19 <ehird> `echo fungot: butt
14:54:19 <fungot> ais523: ( d) the identity of the group itself, must specify the currency holdings contained in the
14:54:19 <fungot> ehird: as president of the situation at hand with respect to any
14:54:31 <ehird> fungot: Cunish pomex.
14:54:31 <fungot> ehird: the ambassador to conduct auctions for positions in the order of succession. the author), in violation of one or more
14:54:34 <ehird> fungot: Cunish pomex.
14:54:34 <fungot> ehird: as soon as possible after this rule defers to them by the players ( plus 1 for 10 days ( or failure to perform
14:54:36 <ehird> fungot: Cunish pomex.
14:54:37 <fungot> ehird: there shall exist the office is filled ( held) by announcement ( invalid unless the proposal. whenever a player puts self back on active status by writing a message to the
14:54:48 <ais523> are any of those reasonably recognisable as a punishment?
14:54:59 <ehird> the ambassador to conduct auctions for positions in the order of succession. the author), in violation of one or more as soon as possible after this rule defers to them by the players ( plus 1 for 10 days ( or failure to perform
14:55:06 <ehird> you can pastiche and make stuff up :P
15:25:33 <AnMaster> $ ~/bin/btext '>' $'Testing this thing yay spaces newline\n'
15:25:33 <AnMaster> a"enilwen secaps":::" yay"::" gniht siht gnitseT"
15:25:52 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a"enilwen secaps":::" yay"::" gniht siht gnitseT">:#,_@
15:25:53 <EgoBot> Testing this thing yyyay sssspaces newline
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15:37:26 <ehird> “We’ve reviewed Instapaper Pro and determined that we cannot post this version of your iPhone application to the App Store at this time because it is not appropriately rated. Our review indicates that the application content is not consistent with the current rating. Instapaper Pro allows unfiltered access to the internet, where content with mature or suggestive themes can be accessed. Applications must be rated accordingly for the highest level of c
15:37:30 <ehird> ontent that the user is able to access.”
15:37:53 <ehird> I wonder when Apple will cause a mature content warning to appear when you start Safari.
15:48:17 <ehird> it's a bookmarking app or something
15:48:26 <ehird> it lets you USE THE INTERNEEEEEEEEEEEEEET
15:48:45 <ehird> <ehird> hmm, looks like north korea have bombed south korea <AnMaster> ehird: just live in Sweden :P
15:49:06 <ehird> ...and other nominees for the "worst analogy of the week" award
15:50:05 <AnMaster> ehird, iphone is like a text book example of vendor lock-in though
15:50:31 <ehird> anyway i bought my iphone before all that
15:50:38 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the name for moding it so you can change carrier?
15:52:51 <ehird> i bought it when you couldn't even put any fuckin' native code on it unless you jailbreaked
15:52:51 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's unlocking
15:52:51 <ehird> jailbreaking is letting you run unsigned code etc
15:52:52 <ehird> the iphone is an excellent alarm clock and portable web browser/irc client :-P
15:53:07 <ehird> 15:50 AnMaster: ehird, is that the name for moding it so you can change carrier?
15:53:07 <ehird> 15:50 ehird: i bought it when you couldn't even put any fuckin' native code on it unless you jailbreaked
15:53:09 <ehird> 15:50 ehird: AnMaster: no, that's unlocking
15:53:11 <ehird> 15:50 ehird: jailbreaking is letting you run unsigned code etc
15:53:13 <ehird> 15:51 ehird: the iphone is an excellent alarm clock and portable web browser/irc client :-P
15:53:15 <ehird> 15:52 AnMaster: or something else?
15:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, err... not that order here...
15:53:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> anyway i bought my iphone before all that
15:53:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, is that the name for moding it so you can change carrier?
15:53:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> i bought it when you couldn't even put any fuckin' native code on it unless you jailbreaked
15:53:54 <ehird> Thus "that's some lag".
15:54:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. over a minute there for a while
15:54:08 <ehird> 15:50 ehird: AnMaster: no, that's unlocking
15:54:08 <ehird> 15:50 ehird: jailbreaking is letting you run unsigned code etc
15:54:10 <ehird> 15:51 ehird: the iphone is an excellent alarm clock and portable web browser/irc client :-P
15:54:37 <ehird> they reduced the price from like $500 to $300 a few months later
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15:54:41 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> i bought it when you couldn't even put any fuckin' native code on it unless you jailbreaked" to "<ehird> the iphone is an excellent alarm clock and portable web browser/irc client :-P" all arrived the same second
15:55:00 <AnMaster> ehird, temporary lag spike I guess...
15:55:32 <ehird> http://blog.cocoia.com/2009/pocket-monster-brands/ ← "Here we go: corporate brand design, the Pokémon edition."
15:55:43 <AnMaster> since it didn't happen on other networks I guess it was due to server side issues
15:55:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:55:55 <AnMaster> or backbone problems or whatever
15:56:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, seems IWC didn't update today.... During normal time for update browser said connection timed out
15:57:20 <AnMaster> now that is some bad handling scheduled events that happened during downtime...
15:58:28 <oerjan> he's always corrected those manually i think
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16:00:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, on_startup { for each scheduled event during(previous timestamp, now) where job_run == false { run_it_now_dammit() }
16:00:41 <ehird> "Lentic Catachresis" isn't a very senseful title. Misapplication of a word meaning still waters? What?
16:00:50 <ehird> *"of still waters", rather.
16:02:41 -!- Judofyr has joined.
16:02:58 <oerjan> yeah, that sounds like misapplication of those words ;D
16:04:38 <ehird> Wow. So catachresis can be contextually homoapplicative?
16:04:55 <ehird> Autechre are amazing linguists.
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16:24:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm the poll page isn't loading either
16:24:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh? send an email or something I usually ignore the poll
16:25:14 <oerjan> i'm sure he'll notice soon enough
16:25:24 <ehird> he couldn't possibly check his own website
16:25:56 <oerjan> i am more thinking about the fuss from people on the forums, actually :D
16:26:19 <oerjan> well, plus everyone _else_ who sends emails
16:27:01 <ehird> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ is down anyway.
16:28:53 <oerjan> i guess it's the same error then
16:29:38 <oerjan> maybe he finally got reddited or something
16:30:00 <oerjan> (or again, don't recall)
16:30:05 <ehird> someone should make a compilation album where a bunch of artists cover 4'33"
16:30:19 <ehird> make it 43 minutes and 30 seconds long
16:31:00 <ehird> i'm thinking like a punk band's version being 30 seconds long and then an ambient drone one that's 10 minutes
16:31:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> someone should make a compilation album where a bunch of artists cover 4'33" <ehird> make it 43 minutes and 30 seconds long <-- one of them only half-covered?
16:31:59 <ehird> 16:31 ehird: i'm thinking like a punk band's version being 30 seconds long and then an ambient drone one that's 10 minutes
16:32:09 <ehird> artistic license, dood.
16:33:17 <AnMaster> Am I still connected? No ping reply from oerjan yet...
16:33:17 <AnMaster> Oh there it came. 20 seconds...
16:33:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ah right, missed that line.
16:33:39 <AnMaster> irritating with temporary lag...
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18:01:01 <AnMaster> if anyone is interested in that formatter script (not yet for flying deltas, but handles 98-spaces and newlines): http://paste.lisp.org/display/83792
18:01:16 <AnMaster> (I thought I pasted it much earlier, then noticed I didn't)
18:01:35 <ehird> isn't that just like 3 emacs modes
18:01:51 <AnMaster> ehird, um. "but handles 98-spaces and newlines"
18:03:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:03:38 <pikhq> Note: the piece 4'33" does not need to be 4'33". ;)
18:04:10 <Sgeo> It doesn't need to be 4 feet 33 inches
18:04:29 <ehird> the text of 4'33" actually notes the time, iirc
18:04:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: ' and " are also units of time (and sub-degree units).
18:04:44 <ehird> but it's easy to do an interperative cover :P
18:04:57 <pikhq> It's been done before, ehird.
18:05:12 <ehird> i'm just saying that 4'33' does actually require it to be 4:33
18:05:16 <ehird> if you play it strictly
18:07:57 <ehird> The original Woodstock manuscript (August 1952): conventional notation, dedicated to David Tudor. This manuscript is currently lost. Tudor's attempt at re-creating the original score is reproduced in Fetterman 1996, 74.
18:07:58 <ehird> The Kremen manuscript (1953): graphic, space-time notation, dedicated to Irwin Kremen. The movements of the piece are rendered as space between long vertical lines; a tempo indication is provided (60), and at the end of each movement the time is indicated in minutes and seconds.[22] Edition Peters No. 6777a.
18:08:02 <ehird> The so-called First Tacet Edition: a typewritten score, lists the three movements using Roman numbers, with the word "TACET" underneath each. A note by Cage describes the first performance and mentions that "the work may be performed by (any) instrumentalist or combination of instrumentalists and last any length of time." Edition Peters No. 6777 (out of print).
18:08:07 <ehird> The so-called Second Tacet Edition: same as the First, except that it is printed in Cage's calligraphy, and the explanatory note mentions the Kremen manuscript. Edition Peters No. 6777 (i.e. it carries the same catalogue number as the first Tacet Edition)
18:08:32 <Sgeo> Dear Windows: Please stop betraying me
18:08:42 <ehird> In 1962, Cage wrote 0'00", which is also referred to as 4'33" No. 2. The directions originally consisted of one sentence: "In a situation provided with maximum amplification, perform a disciplined action." The first performance had Cage write that sentence.
18:08:43 <ehird> The second performance added four new qualifications to the directions: "the performer should allow any interruptions of the action, the action should fulfill an obligation to others, the same action should not be used in more than one performance, and should not be the performance of a musical composition."[10]
18:08:46 <Sgeo> Dear Firefox, please make this the last time you load slowly
18:08:50 <ehird> Sgeo: the point of windows is to betray you.
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18:11:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:12:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:12:54 <Sgeo> XChat crashed around the same time that Firefox loaded
18:14:03 <ehird> 18:08 ehird: Sgeo: the point of windows is to betray you.
18:14:23 <AnMaster> hm? Xchat crashed? That never happened when I used it.
18:14:31 <Sgeo> Well, Silverex
18:15:07 <AnMaster> Sgeo, that may be different. Haven't used windows for a long time outside a VM. and even inside a wm was quite long ago.,
18:16:03 <Sgeo> Hm, should try AW in Win98 in VirtualBox at some point
18:16:48 <GregorR> Sgeo: Xchat and Firefox aren't friends.
18:17:20 <pikhq> Firefox just isn't very friendly to people.
18:17:57 <Sgeo> Therefore, XChat is a people.
18:18:22 <GregorR> XCHAT IS PEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOPLEEEEE
18:19:45 <AnMaster> if you are already on windows I mean
18:19:57 <Sgeo> So I don't have to be on Windows to run it
18:20:11 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what is this "Active Worlds" thingy?
18:20:47 <Sgeo> It's a 3d worlds thingy similar, but different, to SL. It's much older than SL
18:21:08 <pikhq> I remember using it in '97.
18:21:14 <AnMaster> Sgeo, weren't you a SL fan recently?
18:21:24 <AnMaster> what happened to that. haven't heard you mention it for a bit
18:21:25 <Sgeo> I can't be a fan of more than one thing?
18:21:34 <Sgeo> I tend to lose interest in things randomly
18:21:44 <Sgeo> Then regain interest eventually, then lose interest.
18:21:52 <AnMaster> right, I know what you mean about losing interest
18:26:40 * Sgeo is planning on making a video of a game that died in 2005
18:53:12 <AnMaster> didn't someone I wrote very linear befunge code in here once?
18:54:18 <AnMaster> Hm. I think he/she should take a look at the lower parts of http://pastebin.ca/1499346
19:11:14 <ehird> i'm going to make some sort of toy actual-game with js/html5/canvas.
19:11:25 <ehird> maybe a super mario clone. those are easy. :P
19:12:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what about that game with jewels falling down and you have to drag them around to get 3 in a row
19:12:29 <ehird> you mean like bejeweled?
19:12:42 <ehird> good idea actually.
19:13:00 <AnMaster> bejeweled ? aspell thinks it should be bejewelled hm
19:13:24 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bejeweled though
19:13:42 <AnMaster> so that actual name of this game. But aspell wouldn't have that
19:14:12 <ehird> popcap games are irritatingly addictive
19:14:23 <ehird> makers of bejeweled, peggle etc
19:15:07 <AnMaster> anyway, I always disliked bejeweled because of the short time limit. You can't spend time planning your next move
19:15:10 <ehird> actually, doing bejeweled would be pointles
19:15:13 <ehird> you don't even need canvas
19:15:17 <Sgeo> I first played a Bejeweled clone on BYOND
19:15:19 <ehird> AnMaster: there are infinite-time ones
19:15:32 <Sgeo> Didn't even know it was a clone grr
19:15:36 <AnMaster> ehird, mhm, will look next time
19:15:46 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't need canvas for it
19:15:50 <AnMaster> you can just move images around
19:15:55 <ehird> AnMaster: not really
19:15:57 <ehird> canvas is smoother
19:16:07 <ehird> also, i'd still use html5
19:16:14 <ehird> Bleep. Bop. Boing.
19:16:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what about doing some 3D demo with canvas?
19:16:34 -!- coppro has joined.
19:16:38 <ehird> 3d in canvas = dog slow. canvas3d = well they've practically built my demo in then haven't they
19:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, like a software ray tracer at 5 fps rendering two bouncing balls or something
19:17:11 <AnMaster> ehird, meh there is a "canvas3d"? :(
19:17:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant a sofware ray tracer demo sort of thingy :P
19:17:42 <ehird> been done, and way too slow.
19:17:46 <ehird> ray tracing hasn't been done
19:17:49 <ehird> are you fucking nuts?
19:17:57 <ehird> AnMaster: the best hardware ray tracers get 5fps
19:18:00 <AnMaster> ehird, software ray tracing demo. haven't you seen some?
19:18:02 <ehird> and you want me to do it in javascript?
19:18:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to see how many fps you mange to get
19:18:21 <AnMaster> use chrome or something to get decent js speed
19:18:24 <pikhq> ehird: Ray tracing has been done.
19:18:42 <ehird> (safari 4 beta was already faster; the final is even moreso)
19:18:46 <pikhq> I believe those guys with the freaking FPGA ray tracer got 30FPS.
19:18:57 <pikhq> Granted, it was only at like 640x480, but.
19:19:03 <Sgeo> Does O3D count as a canvas3d?
19:19:03 <ehird> on complicated models
19:19:25 <Sgeo> Or does canvas3d refer to something else?
19:19:31 <pikhq> ehird, that's the speed of software ray tracing...
19:19:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, link to this being done in javascript? I mean, ray tracing
19:19:43 <pikhq> Oh, in Javascript?
19:20:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, to do it on a canvas in HTML5 with javascript!
19:20:17 <pikhq> Where's Gregor's Javascript ray tracer... :P
19:20:22 <ehird> pikhq: I'm talking high-quality models here.
19:20:30 <ehird> pikhq: As in, professional raytraced image quality.
19:20:33 <ehird> Final product quality.
19:20:33 <pikhq> ehird: Define 'high-quality'.
19:20:46 * Sgeo thinks a canvas3d API should be roughly compatible with O3D apis, such that if O3D becomes a wide-spread standard, it's easy to take old work and just have it use O3D
19:20:48 <ehird> That's Caustic's game.
19:21:11 <ehird> Sgeo: would you shut up? canvas3d already exists
19:21:13 <ehird> it's not a hypothetical
19:21:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, a plugin by Google that allows Javascript to make 3d stuff
19:21:16 <ehird> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Canvas:3D
19:21:41 <Sgeo> Oh, so they're basically competing...
19:21:51 <Sgeo> Either Mozilla or Google should be slapped. I vote Google.
19:21:55 <ehird> http://www.zazzle.com/three_wolves_howling_at_the_moon_tshirt-235961755604154510
19:22:05 <GregorR> I assume canvas3d is just a 3D extension to Apple's canvas?
19:22:09 <pikhq> ehird: Are you reading reports from the 90s?
19:22:11 <ehird> GregorR: "apple's canvas"
19:22:18 <ehird> GregorR: You mean everyone's by now.
19:22:24 <ehird> pikhq: Dude, this is from THEIR PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL.
19:22:25 <GregorR> Sure, but it was created by Apple.
19:22:34 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8859-1#ISO-8859-1_and_Windows-1252_confusion says "However, the draft HTML 5 specification requires that documents advertised as ISO-8859-1 actually be parsed with the Windows-1252 encoding."
19:22:41 <ehird> pikhq: The point is high-resolution.
19:22:47 <ehird> You can edit ray traced images at their final quality at 5-10fps.
19:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, how can you love HTML5 with THAT!
19:22:54 <ehird> As in, what you see is what you'll get, exactly.
19:23:09 <ehird> AnMaster: because the point is that you can use HTML5's algorithms and render every existing page on the web as good as current browsers do
19:23:16 <ehird> that's why its parsing is so elaborate, too: it handles -everything-
19:23:32 <ehird> an HTML5 implementation will Just Work with every page in existence
19:23:51 <Sgeo> http://www.tapper-ware.net/canvas3d/ this isn't what's meant by canvas3d, is it?
19:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it will fail on a page sending the correct encoding...
19:24:05 <pikhq> It's processor-intensive (4-socket, 4-core system), but Enemy Territory: Quake Wars can run using software ray tracing for rendering.
19:24:10 <ehird> AnMaster: "whereas they are control codes in ISO-8859-1"
19:24:16 <ehird> Nobody puts control codes in a web document.
19:24:22 <AnMaster> ehird, so what encoding do you send in HTML5 when you actually mean "ISO-8859-1" and wants those control codes...
19:24:27 <ehird> pikhq: Uhh, lol, no.
19:24:31 <ehird> pikhq: They did that with a CLUSTER.
19:24:35 <ehird> It was 24 machines or something.
19:24:40 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't.
19:24:47 <ehird> AnMaster: because that's useless, stupid and never happens
19:24:49 <ehird> pikhq: no, they used a cluster
19:24:52 <ehird> i looked into it a while back
19:25:03 <pikhq> STOP ARGUING AGAINST FACTS, BITCH.
19:25:09 <ehird> They used a cluster.
19:25:14 <pikhq> When did you read this?
19:25:32 <ehird> the page describing it.
19:25:40 <pikhq> I said when, not where.
19:25:50 <ehird> maybe a month or two
19:25:56 <pikhq> http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-37925-113.html
19:26:06 <pikhq> "For the record, the demonstration ran on a 16-core (4 socket, 4 core) Tigerton system running at 2.93 GHz."
19:27:19 <Sgeo> Is canvas3d still being worked on?
19:28:08 <Sgeo> Are the canvas3d and O3D apis compatible in any way?
19:28:11 <pikhq> I seem to recall similar performance being obtained via 2 PS3s, but I don't have a link handy.
19:28:30 <ehird> i can't find the page but i'm fairly sure it was a cluster
19:28:44 <AnMaster> * Sgeo thinks a canvas3d API should be roughly compatible with O3D apis, such that if O3D becomes a wide-spread standard, it's easy to take old work and just have it use O3D <Sgeo> Is canvas3d still being worked on? <Sgeo> Are the canvas3d and O3D apis compatible in any way? <-- you seem to have something against canvas3d?
19:28:48 <pikhq> ehird: I ALREADY CITED MY SOURCE FOR SAYING IT WAS A SINGLE SYSTEM YOU IDIOT.
19:28:58 <pikhq> READ THE MOTHERFUCKING ARTICLE.
19:28:58 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I have something against two competing APIs
19:29:03 <ehird> Hey, now I'm tempted to ignore pikhq. Cool.
19:29:04 <Sgeo> There should be one standard API
19:29:23 <pikhq> ehird: Please, just stop going 'Lalala'. ;)
19:29:39 <AnMaster> ehird, pikhq provided proof. Now if is up to you to prove him wrong.
19:29:49 <pikhq> Also, hardware ray tracing: http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~woop/rpu/rpu.html
19:29:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd note that I don't give a flying fuck.
19:30:13 <AnMaster> ehird, you have acted like this way too many times before... So I suggest you just shut the fuck up instead of trying to pretend you weren't wrong when you actually are.
19:30:22 <ehird> 19:29 pikhq: Also, hardware ray tracing: http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~woop/rpu/rpu.html // this doesn't even give fps figures
19:30:26 <AnMaster> or even better: admit you were wrong
19:30:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Waah. Do you want a tissue? You must be remarkably emotional with all this fighting against my tyranny.
19:30:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Poor thing.
19:31:02 <ehird> pikhq: said video wants me to download a video codec.
19:31:08 <AnMaster> ehird, *unrelated* personal attacks is not an acceptable way.
19:31:17 <pikhq> Also, that hardware ray tracing? Running on an FPGA.
19:31:22 <ehird> AnMaster: keep going. One day, you will stop my evil unacceptability.
19:31:24 <pikhq> ehird: ... MPEG-4.
19:31:26 <ehird> We must fight. We must stand.
19:31:36 <ehird> AnMaster: And we will triumph!
19:32:02 <pikhq> ehird: What, and your system doesn't handle every video format known to man?
19:32:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is the direct link to that video? Let me try mplayer on it.
19:33:19 <AnMaster> iirc ehird mentioned that he uses mplayer?
19:35:21 <Sgeo> Canvas3d isn't working for me :( :( :(
19:35:30 <ehird> Did you do the thing?
19:35:51 <Sgeo> I installed the extension
19:36:00 <Sgeo> And allowed the page to use Canvas3d
19:36:11 <Sgeo> All I get on c3dl.org 's demo is blueness
19:36:42 <ehird> Like Dylan; amirite GregorR?
19:36:45 <Sgeo> When I go to the demos, I get errors
19:37:26 <ehird> Everything see three dee ell dot org is Dylan to me.
19:38:40 <ehird> If it's not Intel or OCZ Vertex, it sucks hard and will give you worse random performance than a hard drive.
19:39:17 <ehird> pikhq: So, they're out now?
19:39:21 <ehird> I told you they would come out.
19:39:25 <ehird> How much do they cost?
19:39:47 <GregorR> And is it measured in $/gig or gig/$? :P
19:39:58 <ehird> All SSDs are $/gig, don't be silly.
19:40:02 <pikhq> They're coming out in two weeks; no prices announced yet, but the new 80G and 160G drives will be cheaper.
19:40:12 <ehird> That's been "news" for ages.
19:40:17 <ehird> I told you that and you doubted it, iirc.
19:40:24 <ehird> But we found that out like, last month.
19:40:37 <pikhq> ... No, I didn't doubt that.
19:40:43 <pikhq> You're the one who doubts things.
19:40:51 <ehird> No I'm not... you... person.
19:41:14 <pikhq> BTW, a single system with 4 chips is not a cluster. It's just silly. ;)
19:41:38 <ehird> For some definition of silly.
19:41:42 <ehird> Nehalem-EX can do 8 chips.
19:41:46 <ehird> 8 chips with 8 cores each.
19:41:55 <ehird> Add in hyperthreading, and we get 128 threads at once.
19:42:06 <pikhq> And they're not on the market yet.
19:42:13 <ehird> pikhq: That's totally irrelevant though.
19:42:22 <ehird> They'll be on the market soon enough.
19:42:28 <ehird> If you have that much money, buy some patience.
19:42:34 <pikhq> Freow. The 80G and 160G drives will be a full $100 cheaper than previous.
19:42:44 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, 8xNehalem-EX + 4xASUS Mars 4GB.
19:42:58 <ehird> 16GB of graphics RAM? Yes. 8 GTX 285 GPUs? Yes.
19:43:12 <pikhq> ehird: And 3xIntel Postville. :P
19:43:17 <ehird> 24GB of RAM? sure, why not.
19:43:46 <pikhq> RAID of SSDs? Sure.
19:43:48 <ehird> pikhq: Eh, just buy a RAMdrive for the OS and program.
19:44:04 <ehird> With 24GB of RAM and 16GB of graphics RAM, the disk will be neglegible
19:44:07 <pikhq> ehird: ... In addition to the SSDs.
19:44:13 <ehird> pikhq: I'm talking about practical here.
19:44:40 <ehird> pikhq: Not everyone is an individual
19:45:00 <pikhq> Most companies don't by single systems that powerful.
19:45:24 <ehird> pikhq: If you want to do some serious supercomputing, this could be a good path.
19:45:37 <ehird> Instead of getting 100 commodity machines, get 10 of these; it'll probably be cheaper and faster.
19:46:20 <pikhq> You don't buy normal desktops for most supercomputing, you buy xU units or a few blade units...
19:46:30 <ehird> "Beowulf cluster", sir.
19:46:38 <ehird> The term begs to differ with you.
19:46:47 <pikhq> Beowulf clusters are built from cheap commodity machines.
19:46:56 <ehird> I was offering an alternative to a Beowulf cluster.
19:47:06 <ehird> Let's ignore ASUS Mars, and go for a cost-effective small-unit-count.
19:47:09 <pikhq> If you're actually spending megabucks on something, you get a bunch of blades or something.
19:47:17 <ehird> ASUS Mars only has 1,000 produced anyway, so it's not long-term viable.
19:47:26 <ehird> $400 for a 2GB GTX 285.
19:47:43 <ehird> Four of em = $1,600.
19:47:50 <ehird> Let's say a Nehalem-EX processor costs $2,000.
19:48:28 <ehird> ~$2000 worth of RAM, $600 worth of SSD (for cache)
19:48:34 <ehird> Well, $700 of RAM.
19:48:38 <ehird> (4GB DDR3 is costly)
19:48:48 <ehird> = $18,900 per system.
19:48:51 <ehird> And what a system it would be.
19:48:52 -!- augur has joined.
19:49:32 <ehird> Get 3 of them = $56,700 and I dare you to find a system that fast for that cost. We're assuming a certain type of computation here:
19:49:35 <ehird> lots and lots of data.
19:49:41 <ehird> In a gigantic beowulf cluster, the bottleneck is the connections between nodes.
19:49:50 <ehird> So I'd say this is likely to turn out faster.
19:51:12 <ehird> But no, this isn't usually practical.
19:51:23 <ehird> I'm bored now so I'm going to assemble a cost-effective supercomputer node in my text editor.
19:52:06 <ehird> I should go work for GreenArrays; I seem to have some sort of obsession with supercomputers :P
19:52:16 <ehird> I went WTF when I found out RoadRunner ran Fedora.
19:52:25 <pikhq> For comparison, $18,900 could reasonably get you a filled rack of computers.
19:52:26 <ehird> I just imagined one monitor connected to it, booting up to Gnome.
19:52:40 <ehird> pikhq: True, but when computer-to-computer is your bottleneck...
19:52:43 <ehird> I never said it was practical.
19:52:47 <ehird> I just said it could have a use case.
19:53:18 <pikhq> ehird: When computer-to-computer is your bottleneck, you're spending a bit more and getting rather crazy fiber links going. :P
19:54:26 * ehird starts off by picking the process for these nodes (3.2GHz Nehalem) and graphics cards (2 x 2GB GTX 285)
19:54:56 <ehird> why won't someone give me a budget for making one of these :E
19:55:36 <Sgeo> http://labs.flog.co.nz/raytracer
19:56:03 <ehird> "I suggest using Opera, as it has a great (fast) JavaScript processor."
19:56:31 <ehird> It doesn't even do antialiasing. :P
19:57:00 * Sgeo uses it in Chrome
19:57:41 <Sgeo> Also, wouldn't worker threads make it not make the browser unresponsive
19:57:48 <ehird> you can't do threads in js
19:58:24 <Sgeo> Then what's https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_DOM_workers ?
19:58:56 <ehird> "Applies to Firefox 3.5, SeaMonkey 2, and Thunderbird 3 and later "
19:59:17 <ehird> Creating a new worker is simple. All you need to do is call the Worker() constructor, specifying the URI of a script to execute in the worker thread, and, if you wish to be able to receive notifications from the worker, set the worker's onmessage property to an appropriate event handler function.
19:59:21 <ehird> as opposed to, you know
19:59:23 <ehird> passing a fucking function
20:01:54 <Sgeo> Ok, Firefox's address bar doesn't seem to want my text
20:02:06 <Sgeo> Ok, now it's working again
20:08:02 <ehird> pikhq: I have the main components for a massively powerful supercomputer node for $5,689.81 in a text file here.
20:08:26 <ehird> All on the market now, and basically the fastest thing ever.
20:08:45 <ehird> Ten of them would probably make an entry on the top 200 supercomputer list.
20:09:48 <ehird> The amount of cruft (motherboard, chassis etc) you have to buy for each node makes powerful nodes appealing, IMO.
20:10:40 <ehird> (Note: i was being hyperbolic about the supercomputer list. :P)
20:34:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, I suspect that within maybe 5 years, GPUs able to ray trace at a decent FPS for gaming will be available. Possibly less time.
20:34:32 <ehird> AnMaster: you know that most modern fpses are only palyable at ~40fps, right?
20:35:18 <pikhq> ehird: And there's real-time ray tracing available now. Unfortunately, it's on a freaking FPGA, so it's not all that great, quality-wise.
20:35:28 <pikhq> Stick that design on an ASIC and you're golden. ;)
20:36:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, ray tracing can take advantage of parallelism very well... So I think with enough FPGAs their slow speed would not be much of an issue.
20:37:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: They designed it to scale with additional FPGAs, and got nearly linear performance increase.
20:37:02 <AnMaster> a larger issue is memory bandwidth...
20:37:08 <pikhq> (only tested with up to 4 FPGAS)
20:37:19 <pikhq> The FPGAs also had rather low memory bandwidth.
20:37:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, until you hit memory bandwidth issues.
20:37:30 <ehird> http://www.caustic.com/
20:37:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, I read about half of the paper so far
20:37:54 <AnMaster> and yes I see they mention trying to combine memory requests and so on
20:38:07 <AnMaster> which will of course help a lot but... far from always
20:38:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sticking it on an ASIC would help a lot.
20:39:06 <pikhq> ehird: Not what I was discussing.
20:39:18 <ehird> caustic's stuff is newer and better.
20:39:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, with a complex enough scene, with enough incoherent rays, not even an ASIC will help. Since then memory bandwidth will be the main issue. More and larger caches yes...
20:39:51 <pikhq> "Someone built a rocket to go to space on a few million!" "Bu, but NASA spends BILLIONS OF DOLLARS on their space program! That's bullshit!"
20:40:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: They had megabytes/sec memory bandwidth.
20:40:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway yes, increasing the speed they operate on will help quite a bit. But do you imagine that they can afford it? For a research project?
20:40:32 <ehird> pikhq: that quote is totally irreleavnt
20:40:50 <ehird> is your logic really "caustic aren't better because they're a company, not a research project"?
20:40:55 <pikhq> What I'm saying is that it is perfectly practical now to make an RPU with good performance, and nobody's doing it.
20:40:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, Even for production, the production will be so limited that AISC might not be worth it...
20:41:19 <pikhq> ehird: ... No, I'm saying that you were being silly when I was discussing Intel's Quake Wars on a single system.
20:41:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is one commercial implementation iirc?
20:41:44 <ehird> pikhq - commenting, without context hints, on things from hours ago since 2009
20:41:50 <pikhq> I'm just saying "We have the technology".
20:42:10 <ehird> hmm, the evidence seems to point to AnMaster ignoring me
20:42:16 <ehird> AnMaster: You fuck sheep.
20:42:35 <ehird> (this is basically like jumping out of the window as soon as you determine you're in a lucid dream.)
20:43:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Caustic.
20:45:19 <pikhq> ehird: I'm never forgetting that quote.
20:45:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about being able to access ram in more parallel? I'm not sure what I mean, but memory seems like the bottleneck in that implementation you linked.
20:45:35 <ehird> pikhq: Ambiguous referent "that".
20:45:40 <ehird> Please correct & resubmit.
20:45:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, and they had absurdly slow memory.
20:45:49 <pikhq> ehird: <ehird> You sheepfucker.
20:46:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, please, I have him on ignore, I do not wish you to relay :)
20:46:06 <ehird> Okay, pikhq. (You sheepfucker.)
20:46:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Your stupidity is like a colossal mountain of sheep, all fucking each other, with you as their liver in every single one.
20:46:35 <ehird> Romeo and Juliet are sheep.
20:46:44 <ehird> Your brain twists and turns into a vaguely pea shape.
20:46:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, 512 MB SRAM? That would rock :D But be insane
20:46:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm just reminding him of his stupidity. :)
20:46:55 <ehird> At this point it is at its most potent, and decides to continue the current action: fucking sheep.
20:47:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: And considering an ignore myself.
20:47:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, is he still claiming it was a cluster and not 16 cores?
20:47:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: Actually, he's just being a troll now.
20:47:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Something about fornication with sheep.
20:47:51 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:48:00 <ehird> I think I'll start an initiative where everyone ignores everyone else but one person.
20:48:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah that phase. Expected behaviour after he lost a discussion.
20:48:10 <ehird> Truly, it would be internet - relay - chat.
20:48:24 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:48:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:48:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, soon he will part in what I believe he calls "a huff"
20:49:17 <ehird> "AnMaster psychic services - almost as accurate as Uri Geller with more than 10x the biases!"
20:50:15 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:50:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:50:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, hi, what are you doing?
20:51:07 <zzo38> I have the index of free software/open source project I make, but the #freenode channels don't help me.
20:51:41 * GregorR tries to imagine what the #freenode channel could POSSIBLY help you with in this respect ...
20:52:13 <zzo38> Someone on #freenode channel asked me before, but now I answered them and they might be gone possibly?
20:52:35 <ehird> zzo38: so what drugs are you on today?
20:52:36 <AnMaster> I'm still completely lost about what the hell you are talking about.
20:53:00 <ehird> I rate the probability of that statement as extremely low, zzo38. :p
20:53:01 <GregorR> AnMaster clearly has ehird on ignore again :P
20:53:33 <ehird> GregorR: Yes, with the usual ignorer schtick of "I'm ignoring him. Oh, him? I'm ignoring him by the way. What was that? Oh it was to him? I'm ignoring him, you know."
20:53:47 <ehird> "PAY ATTENTION TO ME GUYS I AM _IGNORING_ HIM"
20:53:55 <zzo38> I made a index of the free software projects I maintain (because I was asked by #freenode to do so), and I have IRC channel, but now what am I supposed to do about it? Nothing?
20:54:00 <ehird> Thank you for the demonstration, pikhq.
20:54:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, correct. Once he started arguing that a 16 core system was actually a cluster and refused to accept it even when pikhq provided the relevant link.... And then ehird started trolling. Read log if you for some odd reason want to see more...
20:54:26 <AnMaster> I can't imagine what reason though
20:54:43 <AnMaster> zzo38, who was it on there that asked you?
20:54:52 <AnMaster> zzo38, better check your irc logs if you don't remember
20:54:56 <ehird> I claimed that (a) there was a raytraced game and (b) it used a cluster of Intel CPUs.
20:55:01 <AnMaster> (I assume you have your client set to log)
20:55:03 <ehird> Both were correct; it was just not the example pikhq pointed out.
20:55:04 <zzo38> If I remember I would go to directly private message to them.
20:55:09 <zzo38> I didn't enable the log, sorry.
20:55:31 <zzo38> I don't remember if it was some staffer or not, either.
20:55:33 <AnMaster> zzo38, btw, you are in luck, I *do* log all channels, and I'm in #freenode. If I was there at that point maybe I can help you?
20:57:47 <zzo38> Did you find it yet?
20:58:00 <AnMaster> zzo38, 34 MB logfile. Takes a bit...
20:58:51 <AnMaster> zzo38, everything matching zzo38 with one line of context before/after from the last two days: http://pastebin.ca/1499435
20:59:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, timestamps are in UTC+2
20:59:15 <AnMaster> so adjust for your timezone as needed
20:59:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, doesn't look like a staffer anyway
21:00:00 <zzo38> Now I know who it was.
21:00:26 <AnMaster> zzo38, so probably not an official request of any kind (thus no one would know what on earth you were talking about later on there...)
21:01:22 <AnMaster> zzo38, indeed not a staffer (just checked)
21:02:37 <AnMaster> wow. 999MB in logs before compressing from last month
21:03:01 <zzo38> I will write my own IRC server and move them to that one once I write it
21:03:21 <AnMaster> zzo38, what is wrong with existing ones? Like charybdis and inspircd?
21:03:28 <zzo38> Is PHP good enough for writing daemons on Windows?
21:03:54 <pikhq> PHP is not recommended for writing anything on anything.
21:04:23 <pikhq> And it is especially poorly suited for the writing of daemons.
21:04:59 <zzo38> I wrote a IRC client in PHP. (I don't write most programs in PHP but if this uses internet connection I use PHP because I know how to socket function with it)
21:05:48 <zzo38> I wrote a Gopher server in FreeBASIC, but that's running on inetd and it is simpler than a IRC server. FreeBASIC is not sufficient for writing a IRC server
21:05:50 <AnMaster> zzo38, for an irc server you want to use a single thread and async IO. Use something like epoll or kqueue to be able to wait on lots of sockets in an efficient way
21:06:18 <zzo38> I use a lot of different program languages, including C.
21:06:22 <AnMaster> I believe windows has something similar to epoll (linux) and kqueue (freebsd)... forgot what the windows one was called
21:06:35 <pikhq> For Haskell is greater than it all.
21:06:42 <AnMaster> zzo38, C is probably one of the saner languages for ircds. Erlang will probably also be good
21:07:03 <zzo38> I don't know how to write internet server software in C.
21:07:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, can you do efficient async IO waiting on thousands of sockets at once?
21:07:10 <pikhq> (Erlang is also recommended for anything where asynchronous message passing makes sense)
21:07:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, though I don't know the library that does that.
21:07:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, erlang will use kqueue, epoll and such automatically, that is why it makes sense for ircds.
21:08:12 <pikhq> Erlang also makes sense for the job, I will freely admit.
21:08:30 <pikhq> I just like the Haskell. ;)
21:08:43 <AnMaster> This is really the most important thing when it comes to good performance in ircds. DON'T USE select() OR poll()! Use whatever the OS provides which is more efficient.
21:09:06 <AnMaster> since select() and poll() requires you to send the complete list of fds to the kernel *every time you wait*
21:09:11 <ehird> threads perform better than async io.
21:09:22 <zzo38> Can it be cross-platform supporting?
21:09:23 <AnMaster> and you wait very often in ircds. and on many fds
21:09:28 <ehird> see http://www.usenix.org/events/hotos03/tech/full_papers/vonbehren/vonbehren_html/index.html
21:09:56 <zzo38> PHIRC uses socket_select
21:09:58 <AnMaster> zzo38, epoll and kqueue? Just provide your own abstraction for these, so you just can do something like -DUSE_KQUEUE at compile time or such. That is what other good ircds do
21:10:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, php is NOT a good idea for ircds. Nor anything else. But especially not stuff like ircds and other daemons.
21:10:29 <zzo38> AnMaster: Thanks for telling me. That seems sensible to me
21:10:56 <zzo38> PHIRC is a IRC client, not server
21:11:00 <AnMaster> zzo38, however, I suggest you try some of the better existing ircds first. Such as charybdis and inspircd.
21:11:21 <AnMaster> and inspircd is very configurable, which should fit you
21:11:24 <zzo38> If source-codes is available I can make modification?
21:11:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, both are open source. So not an issue
21:11:48 <AnMaster> charybdis is in C, inspircd is a in a mostly sane subset of C++
21:12:32 <AnMaster> but I haven't ever needed to modify either except when I was on the QA team of inspircd some years ago
21:13:35 <zzo38> When trying to access the web-site for charybdis ircd I get a protocol mismatch error.
21:13:36 <AnMaster> and with "modify" here, I actually mean "apply patches from devs to test them"
21:14:28 <zzo38> http://www.ircd-charybdis.org/Main_Page
21:14:28 <AnMaster> http://www.stack.nl/~jilles/irc/#charybdis right?
21:15:12 <AnMaster> zzo38, I haven't heard of that one before? Nor is it listed in the topic of #charybdis (not on freenode, another network)
21:15:59 <AnMaster> zzo38, the charybdis devs are good developers, but they don't spend much time on their website.
21:16:49 <AnMaster> Unlike one of the guys on the inspircd team
21:16:50 <zzo38> What was the first IRC server software written, and is it free software/open source?
21:17:05 <ais523> probably "ircd", nothing else would have a name that simple
21:17:28 <AnMaster> Open and free? No idea. I believe the source is lost nowdays for the very first versions
21:17:38 <AnMaster> besides, those used an incompatible irc protocol
21:17:48 <AnMaster> it didn't stabilise until a bit later
21:18:12 <zzo38> It doesn't matter, if it is available at all and FOSS, I would fix it
21:18:30 <ehird> zzo38: it won't even run on modern systems...
21:18:36 <ehird> wasn't it made on a timesharing system?
21:19:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, Remember IRC is very old. I know someone tried some of the older ones and couldn't get them to compile on modern OSes
21:19:27 <zzo38> My channels are currently on IRCNET (us.ircnet.org:7000) but I plan to move them to zzo38computer.cjb.net:194 when the IRC server software is ready and I have written it and set it up
21:19:57 <AnMaster> I think either Brain or w00t made an ircd collection. Maybe they have some of the older ones...
21:20:03 <AnMaster> I shall ask next time I see them
21:20:59 <AnMaster> zzo38, the first ircd was written around 1988-1989 or so...
21:21:15 <AnMaster> zzo38, so yeah, the oldest versions are lost
21:22:06 <zzo38> Because if I can get the oldest and simplest one available (preferably in C) then I can work from that to fix things and add stuff.
21:22:27 <AnMaster> zzo38, then you would just be reinventing the wheel
21:23:55 <zzo38> I can also write it completely by myself, if I can know how to make internet server softwares in C and MinGW.
21:24:16 <AnMaster> MinGW is just GCC ported to Windows isn't it?
21:24:19 <zzo38> But I want it to be cross-platform.
21:24:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, your best bet if you want it to run on windows as well as Linux, freebsd and so on is inspircd. Charybdis won't work on windows
21:25:02 <AnMaster> inspircd does have a port to windows
21:25:18 <AnMaster> zzo38, and I'm unable to find these old ircds versions currently.
21:25:36 <zzo38> I probably ought to write my own so that I can learn more about internet servers softwares in C.
21:29:43 <zzo38> The channel of my projects is +Vonkeror +gophserv +MegaZeux +PHIRC
21:30:42 <zzo38> Not on freenode though.
21:31:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, + is local to server isn't it? Not widely supported due to being pretty useless.
21:31:22 <zzo38> No, & is local to server
21:33:11 <AnMaster> zzo38, ircnet is really one of the worst networks out there for many reasons. 1) no services 2) bad ircd 3) policies and rules varies between servers.
21:33:28 <AnMaster> efnet has the same problem basically, except it does have services, but not usual ones
21:33:33 <ehird> ircnet was the -original- network
21:33:39 <ehird> what you're saying amounts to "IRC sucks"
21:33:51 <AnMaster> (and their service "CHANFIXER" is one of the worst possible ones I can think of)
21:36:59 <zzo38> IRCNET is the closest network I could find to what I needed.
21:37:21 <AnMaster> I wonder what your needs are then...
21:39:02 <zzo38> Mostly support for + type channels
21:39:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, what did + ones do now again?
21:39:27 <zzo38> + type channels are modeless
21:39:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, and why do you want that?
21:39:47 <zzo38> The other features of IRCNET are also the ones I was looking for, too.
21:40:31 <zzo38> I want to use modeless channels and that's why my projects are not hosted on freenode.
21:41:35 <ais523> arguably, services are a hax
21:41:59 <AnMaster> ais523, agreed. But they integrate quite well these days. Work well too
21:42:18 <AnMaster> ais523, the alternative would be the same functionality built into the ircds. And distributed
21:42:26 <zzo38> I don't need services
21:42:27 <AnMaster> but then you would have various problems syncing them and so on
21:42:55 <AnMaster> and what about netsplits? Same nick could be registered on both sides then
21:43:17 <AnMaster> there are ways to work around this and so on, but all uglier hacks than services as they are done now
21:43:54 <AnMaster> (such as forbidding registration through services unless more than 50 % of all servers are connected to the current server atm.
21:44:34 <fizzie> The alternative is not "nick registration built into the server" but "no nick registration".
21:45:15 <AnMaster> ais523, also, I agree most classical services are backs. But atheme, which freenode uses since several months ago (switched during 2008 iirc?) handles nick changes much better.
21:45:22 <AnMaster> "* [ais523] is signed on as account ais523"
21:45:30 <AnMaster> that would follow you around even if you changed nick
21:45:45 <ais523> some ircds have rules against reserving nicks in any way
21:45:49 <ais523> and encourage sniping other people's nicks
21:46:02 <AnMaster> older services needed you to always have a nick registered to your account or you were logged out
21:46:16 <AnMaster> ais523, um... Not any of the big ones at least.
21:46:30 <ais523> same for channels IIRC
21:46:37 <ais523> that's closer to the original spirit of IRC
21:46:47 <ais523> although, original IRC used ident as a means of authentication
21:47:00 <ais523> it was supposed to be able to tell who you were from your IP, or logged-in-ness, or something
21:48:17 <AnMaster> http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/top10.php <-- I know at least 6 of those use services. IRCnet does not. Efnet doesn't use normal services, so didn't count it in those 6 (google chanfixer if you want to know more), webchat and that ustream.tv I have no idea about
21:48:50 <AnMaster> almost all networks use services these days
21:50:30 <AnMaster> ircnet and (possibly, depending on how you define services) efnet are the only big ones I know lack services. Almost all smaller networks have services.
21:50:59 <AnMaster> ais523, services are overwhelmingly more popular than "no services"
21:52:27 <AnMaster> http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/top10.php?year=2009 <-- I wonder why the user graph for most networks look like a sawtooth?
21:52:39 <fizzie> How many different ways are you going to keep saying that same thing?-)
21:52:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can possibly add a few more.
21:53:11 <fizzie> It looks like it's something week-periodic there, since it's about four periods per month.
21:53:47 <fizzie> I can't really tell from that graph. Rise would perhaps be more logical.
21:54:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, the server count (third graph) is really strange for dalnet...
21:54:29 -!- _AnywhereIs_ has joined.
21:54:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, wasn't dalnet the first network to introduce services iirc?
21:54:52 <ais523> for all the Rubicon fans over here, I just made a new puzzle: http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=dinasog
21:55:09 <zzo38> How do I get help for writing the internet server software with C and cross-platform?
21:55:10 <AnMaster> ais523, is that the game based on RUBE?
21:55:24 <fizzie> The server count graph to me looks like that irc.netsplit.de is gathering their dalnet statistics from some leaf server that has a bit flaky connection.
21:55:30 -!- _AnywhereIs_ has left (?).
21:55:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, you look at existing software and learns how it works?
21:55:54 <zzo38> Which software should I look at mostly?
21:55:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc netsplit.de use three different servers.
21:56:04 <pikhq> Write it for UNIX.
21:56:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, for ircds? probably inspircd and/or charybdis
21:56:21 <AnMaster> they are the best ones currently
21:56:23 <pikhq> Test it on multiple Unixes.
21:56:29 <pikhq> Then, port to Windows.
21:56:35 <zzo38> No, just internet server software in general. And it has to work on MinGW and on UNIX.
21:56:37 <AnMaster> performs best, most modern features, least messy code bases.
21:56:39 <pikhq> (I suggest using cygwin or mingw for that)
21:56:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, a httpd would be written very differently from an ircd for example
21:57:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Assume UNIX, then make it work for Windows.
21:57:18 <pikhq> That's the single easiest way to get it working everywhere.
21:57:26 <zzo38> However I cannot test it on UNIX, I have to test it on Windows only.
21:57:34 <AnMaster> you might want threads in a httpd even. You will never want a threaded ircd.
21:57:51 <AnMaster> (possible exception is if it is using erlang threads, which are rather different from normal ones)
21:57:56 <fizzie> If you look at the weekly graph -- for example, QuakeNet at http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/details.php?net=QuakeNet&submenu=weeks -- it actually looks as if there's a bit less than average people on weekends.
21:57:58 <zzo38> I can try to look at codes of charybdis and so on
21:58:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Ich schlafe. Ich bin sehr müde.").
21:58:45 <zzo38> But still, the *client* PHIRC is written in PHP (and I am using it right now)
21:59:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Hmm. Yeah, you'd basically want a fork() with message passing for an ircd.
21:59:08 <fizzie> It might be that there's some sort of thing that is not IRC that people do. I've heard rumours, though I haven't experienced such a thing myself.
21:59:17 <AnMaster> zzo38, a client makes a handful connections. Maybe 5-10 or so, depends on how many networks you are on
21:59:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:59:24 <AnMaster> but an ircd have thousands each
21:59:36 <AnMaster> * Current local users: 3987 Max: 4291
21:59:36 <AnMaster> * Current global users: 48593 Max: 57036
21:59:36 <AnMaster> * Highest connection count: 4293 (4291 clients) (340841 since server was (re)started)
21:59:49 <AnMaster> varies between which server you are connected on of course
21:59:59 <zzo38> Each instance of PHIRC connects to only one server at a time (but you can have multiple instances running at once, in separate windows)
22:00:08 <pikhq> Hmm. fork() with message passing...
22:00:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Evil, to be sure.
22:00:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, I bet you won't be able to handle more than maybe 100-200 clients then. At most.
22:01:04 <zzo38> The only way I understand is the way I wrote PHIRC in.
22:01:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Don't write an IRCd.
22:01:33 <pikhq> Learn how to do network code in C first.
22:01:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, an ircd that can't handle over 10 000 clients in a single channel (all connected to a single ircd) all sending data all the time isn't really worth the it's LOC in gold
22:01:57 <AnMaster> and yes I know inspircd handles that, as I said, I was on the inspircd QA team a few years ago :)
22:02:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: I didn't say it was a good idea.
22:03:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and that build was a -O0 -ggdb3 build. and that was C++. So for inspircd the bandwidth would be the limiting factor in most cases.
22:04:56 <zzo38> PHP is not even using as much memory as Apache and stuff with PHIRC running.
22:06:35 <pikhq> zzo38: You should do that in a different language.
22:06:50 <zzo38> Why is PHP such a bad way to do it, Apache uses ten times as much memory as PHP.
22:07:19 <pikhq> Nice non sequitur.
22:07:51 <pikhq> "Why is a Ford Model T a bad car? The Space Shuttle uses several thousand times as much fuel as it."
22:08:31 <GregorR> More like, "Why is the Ford Model T a bad car? A truck towing a Ford Model T would probably use more gas."
22:13:28 <zzo38> Does PHIRC even missed anything important? I think I have everything necessary now.
22:13:58 <pikhq> You made RawIRC and are asking if it needs anything else.
22:14:29 <zzo38> It isn't the same as RawIRC, it is a bit different. I can't even get RawIRC to compile.
22:14:51 <zzo38> Did you even look at it? Maybe if you look at the codes you might notice something I missed
22:16:39 <zzo38> http://pastebin.ca/1499497
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22:19:41 <GregorR> "The ability to not inexplicably part channels with no warning"
22:21:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, zzo definitely lacks it yes
22:22:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, he also lacks "The ability to not join the channel and starting talking like you were in the middle of a conversation, thus leaving you very confused"
22:23:57 <GregorR> But can we build that into an IRC client? ;)
22:24:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, I wasn't aware you planned to build it into an irc client
22:25:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, btw, I have the "The ability to not inexplicably part channels with no warning" in my bouncer
22:26:02 <AnMaster> means it will block parts and automatically rejoin me if I make a mistake
22:26:11 <AnMaster> like clicking the wrong button
22:26:22 <AnMaster> I have this channel set to sticky :)
22:26:51 <GregorR> We're all very proud to be so ... sticky?
22:27:04 <GregorR> I've been reading too much ... dinosaur comics?
22:27:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh? I missed that reference... Even though I occasionally read it...
22:27:43 <GregorR> T-Rex seems to form a lot of sentences ... like this?
22:28:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, none in the last one it seems *looks a bit back*
22:28:35 <GregorR> Naw, not every comic certainly, but I think it's indicative.
22:31:50 <AnMaster> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1503 <-- heh, graphic change!
22:32:32 <AnMaster> anyway found one example between 1503 and 1512
23:10:47 <ehird> 21:57 AnMaster: you might want threads in a httpd even. You will never want a threaded ircd.
23:11:40 <ehird> 22:01 AnMaster: pikhq, an ircd that can't handle over 10 000 clients in a single channel (all connected to a single ircd) all sending data all the time isn't really worth the it's LOC in gold
23:11:45 <ehird> such channels... don't exist.
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23:21:43 <ehird> http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/etckeeper/ ← hells yeah
23:38:00 <ais523> hmm... I recognise that URL, the first bit at least
23:38:06 <ais523> isn't that by Debian's former C-INTERCAL maintainer?
23:40:41 <ehird> ais523: he also made ikiwiki.
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23:41:06 <ehird> but he might have done that
23:41:48 <ehird> "I've developed an xmonad configuration file for using this window manager with the Palm Pre smart phone. (I described how I run X on the Pre in VNC here.)"
23:41:54 <ehird> He also appears to be batshit insane
23:42:12 <ehird> ais523: he implemented debconf
23:42:35 <ehird> and started debian-installer
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01:38:45 <ehird> "I was rather hoping to see a mesmerizing dance of alligators forever consuming one another."
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03:07:02 <Warrigal> It appears that the Latin word "recludere" is an antonym of itself.
03:07:14 <Warrigal> Hence the contrary meanings of "reclude" and "recluse".
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03:21:06 <oerjan> grmbl; recludere latin antonym gives a google hit that would have been perfect, _if_ it had actually contained recludere anywhere. but no, google claims it exists only in a link to the page. but link:http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.com/2005/03/auto-antonyms.html gives _no_ hits.
03:22:16 <oerjan> (anyway i get that it can mean both open and enclose, although i haven't found a single page that says both)
03:24:09 * oerjan googles more, finds http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Recluse&fromAsk=true&o=100074 says so down at the page
03:24:34 <oerjan> apparently it's a classical vs. late latin thing
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05:16:04 <Warrigal> It sounds like you've found it.
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07:01:55 <calamari> GregorR: so which new watch do you have?
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12:53:10 <ehird> 04:20 pikhq: XMonad is hard. \
12:53:17 <ehird> even among the tilers i don't really like xmonad
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13:41:52 <ehird> Meanwhile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-racist_mathematics
13:49:11 <Deewiant> Reminds me of http://blogs.chron.com/gamehacks/2009/07/racism_in_video_games_the_new.html#more
13:50:25 <ehird> "One of the games that comes to mind is "Left 4 Dead 2." Though the game isn't out yet, it's already causing an uproar. Set in New Orleans, players will have to fight their way through hordes of zombies - with several of them who appear to be African-Americans. When I saw the first trailer for the game, all I could think about was Hurricane Katrina and the aftermath. Setting the game in a city that was scene of dead, bloated bodies floating by so soon af
13:50:27 <ehird> terward was a bad call, IMHO."
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15:17:37 <ehird> Deewiant: btw http://blogs.chron.com/gamehacks/2009/07/racism_in_video_games_the_new.html is satire... right?
15:17:52 <ehird> i mean i need to know
15:17:58 <ehird> they're all serious
15:24:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
15:25:25 <Deewiant> http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/07/15/houston-chronicle-racism-becoming-norm-gaming http://www.destructoid.com/left-4-dead-2-is-racist-because-several-zombies-are-black-139960.phtml
15:25:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Dude, it says that setting a game in New Orleans 4 years after a hurricane there is in bad taste.
15:25:39 <ehird> Nobody is that stupid. Nobody. ...Please tell me nobody is that stupid.
15:25:41 <Deewiant> ehird: It also says that the game is racist because it contains black people.
15:25:49 <ehird> I knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww what the fuck
15:25:55 <ehird> C'mon it's gotta be satire
15:26:00 <Deewiant> Originally via http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/91zha/left_4_dead_2_is_racist_because_several_zombies/
15:26:42 <Deewiant> And you'd think that if it were and he'd get all the hatemail he's probably getting he might edit it to say "this is satire you idiots"
15:30:28 -!- Judofyr has joined.
15:31:07 <ehird> Comments update: Here are a few excerpts from comments that haven't been posted ...
15:31:08 <ehird> "Either the entire colour spectrum (as in humanity) is wrong to kill, and we should use aliens/dogs instead, or NO ONE is wrong to kill."
15:31:10 <ehird> Seriously? Madskillz posted his opinion about the topic. You are encouraged to do the same, but comments with name calling and bad language won't be published. I know many of you are coming from other sites, so please feel welcome and thanks for stopping by. However, if you can't keep it civil, go away.
15:31:15 <ehird> Damn, that comment was so uncivil
15:31:20 <ehird> Are you really sure about this
15:35:54 <ehird> Deewiant: the author is mentally insane, something about curing cancer or something
15:35:57 <ehird> Can scientist be wrong? Find out THE TRUTH
15:36:00 <ehird> http://dukecitygamerz.com/
15:36:07 <ehird> http://jeffeco.com
15:36:24 <ehird> → Frames → Prophecy. Teleportation.
15:36:35 <ehird> Jefferson's Law. Jefferson's Law. Jefferson's Law.
15:36:49 <ehird> I think he thinks he's a prophet or something.
15:39:55 <ehird> He appears to be a different person, which means that this person isn't a crackpot; he's that even crazier species, a follower of a crackpot.
16:17:29 <ehird> GregorR: …………………………………………………………………...
16:17:39 <ehird> Hint: it's at the end.
16:17:39 <GregorR> Pretty easy in this monospace font :P
16:18:08 <GregorR> Is your IRC font non-monospace?
16:19:53 <GregorR> I love that unicode has characters like ½ and ⅜ ... seems so futile :P
16:20:22 <ehird> yes, my irc font is proportional
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16:52:30 <GregorR> It's futile because there's always infinitely more fractions NOT supported than supported :P
16:53:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, ½ is even mapped to Shift-§ on this keyboard layout...
16:55:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, but yeah, it is a typography thing. Just use \nicefrac{9}{32} (iirc)
17:03:22 <Zuu> im afraid that not many IRC client support tex
17:05:56 <GregorR> This is #esoteric, everybody's brains support TeX :P
17:08:32 <Zuu> yeah, it's just such a hazzle installing new packages
17:13:19 <pikhq> GregorR: Unicode has a combining / .
17:13:29 <pikhq> It combines two surrounding numbers into a single fraction.
17:13:37 <pikhq> (sadly, it's not well-supported)
17:14:37 <Zuu> sadly typography is so darn complex
17:15:12 <pikhq> This is why everything should render via TeX.
17:15:44 <pikhq> (preferably XeTeX)
17:16:50 * Zuu would prefer everyone agreeing on simplifying typography
17:25:28 <Zuu> does there even exist a single characterset able to represent all of unicode ?
17:26:27 <ehird> Uhh, yeah. Unicode.
17:26:44 <Zuu> i meant, font
17:27:07 <Zuu> code2000 is a font?
17:27:08 <Deewiant> No single font has all of Unicode
17:28:19 <ehird> code2000 has private assignment stuff too
17:30:17 <Zuu> apparently there are later versions of code2000 that supports more than just the bmp
17:30:32 <Zuu> but the bmp is still a tiny part of unicode
17:32:42 <Zuu> that guy must have been busy creating all those gylphs, if wikipedia is right, that one guy designed it
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18:26:47 <ehird> "The Pre is one of the first smartphones to feature wireless charging, using electromagnetic induction through an optional wireless charging dock (dubbed the "Touchstone") and a special back cover, which also is sold separately.[16] Users can still charge the phone using the supplied MicroUSB cable."
18:28:11 <ehird> Deewiant: palm's comeback — linux-based, touchscreen smartphone with qwerty keyboard
18:28:21 <ehird> iphone + qwerty keyboard + multitasking + differences.
18:28:23 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Pre
18:28:39 <Deewiant> You could've just said "Palm Pre". :-)
18:28:39 <ehird> a bit closer to the g1 than the iphone really
18:28:51 <ehird> i misinterpreted the question, y'see.
18:29:16 <Deewiant> Well, I didn't know that much about the Palm Pre anyway so it wasn't in vain
18:29:47 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Motorola_V70.jpg wow this is the ugliest phone i've ever seen
18:56:27 <pikhq> That TELLULAR CELEPHONE
18:56:43 <GregorR> That TELL YOU LARS, CELLOPHANE
18:57:12 <pikhq> (what, exactly, a tellular celephone is is left as an exercise for the reader)
18:57:31 <ehird> That tell you lars, chloroform.
18:58:10 <ehird> That telled, you liars, chloroform.
18:58:12 <ehird> That told, you liars, chloroform.
18:58:16 <ehird> […]that told you liars: chloroform.
18:58:37 <ehird> Phone → […]that told you liars: chloroform.
19:08:57 <AnMaster> <pikhq> It combines two surrounding numbers into a single fraction. <-- that won't work for multi-digit numbers will it?
19:09:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's supposed to.
19:09:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, what if I want to write 1½ then? or (11)/2
19:10:25 <GregorR> Although you could always use a zero-width space.
19:10:28 <GregorR> This is Unicode after all.
19:12:04 <pikhq> Man, zero-width space.
19:12:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, is that the combining / ?
19:13:00 <fizzie> Not here either. It seems really rather unsupported.
19:13:16 <GregorR> Hey, that worked for me :)
19:13:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, I guess ehird might... considering how he even loves those horrible "extra wide Latin" chars...
19:13:37 <fizzie> "Normal" combining characters work in many places, but that thing is really rather freaky.
19:13:39 <AnMaster> (which IMO is a question of typography...)
19:13:46 <pikhq> GregorR: The combining / is not well-supported. At all. ;)
19:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster - offering his unprofessional opinions on things he doesn't know about or understand since 2007
19:14:05 <ehird> GregorR: It displas like 1/4 for me.
19:14:07 <ehird> But with a more angley /.
19:14:49 <ehird> AnMaster sure is having trouble ignoring me without ignoring me.
19:14:51 <pikhq> I believe on Macs, 111/411 gets treated as 11¼11.
19:15:00 <ehird> pikhq: You're very wrong.
19:15:05 <pikhq> Which is... Pretty failtastic.
19:15:12 <ehird> pikhq: you can't hear me, but you're wrong.
19:15:16 <ehird> No such thing happens.
19:15:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, worse than not handling it at all IMO
19:15:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, what was "more angley"?
19:15:54 <pikhq> At least by not handling it, you still get the same meaning carried across...
19:15:56 <ehird> pikhq and AnMaster sitting in a tree, i-g-n-o-r-i-ng. First comes misinformation, then comes groupthink, then comes a little antifanboyism... somethinging.
19:16:18 <ehird> (ng is pronounced "unggg".)
19:16:38 <GregorR> Bleh, doesn't display quite right.
19:16:59 <GregorR> AnMaster: Hah, you converted my thorn into a 'th' X-D
19:17:11 <GregorR> AnMaster: It was a thorn with two tildes :P
19:17:13 <AnMaster> GregorR, selecting that text yeilds interesting results
19:17:22 <fizzie> There's also a separate "fraction numerator one" character, ⅟ which you can stick in front of numbers to have any one-per-x fraction.
19:17:25 <AnMaster> when I select it, the ~ move to after the N
19:17:56 <fizzie> Around here it doesn't really mangle the other numbers, but in a non-monospaced text field it gets a slight bit on top of it.
19:18:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, in my irc window that doesn't combine at all. In a variable width window I had open, it did
19:18:45 <pikhq> GregorR: Displays right here.
19:18:52 <pikhq> In my MONOSPACE TERMINAL.
19:19:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, N with ~ above displayed right in my monospace font too
19:19:30 <pikhq> Dejavu Sans Mono in urxvt.
19:19:33 <pikhq> In irssi in screen.
19:19:41 <pikhq> And works right when selecting.
19:19:42 <AnMaster> pikhq what happens when you select it?
19:19:50 <pikhq> I select the character.
19:20:03 <pikhq> (physical, not Unicode)
19:20:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, I blame using xchat (I am atm, since erc isn't very good for dcc... which I was using atm)
19:20:28 <AnMaster> in erc... (also open) selecting it works
19:20:43 <pikhq> I CANT PRONOUNCE THE NO-CHARACTER-IN-FONT BOX
19:20:44 <AnMaster> possibly due to using qt (konsole 3.5.10) rather than GTK+ (xchat)
19:20:48 <fizzie> I personally like the "combining enclosing *" characters best out of the combining characters. There's a diamond d⃟ and a square s⃞ and a circle-backslash Z⃠ and even the keycap K⃣ and the screen w⃢ ones.
19:20:56 <AnMaster> <GregorR> o̸̘̲̐̑̒̈́ͨ <-- is it?
19:21:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: No surprise; Emacs has rather good Unicode support.
19:21:12 <AnMaster> it renders badly yes in xchat. but not in the xchat input field
19:21:20 <pikhq> (it was written by the Japanese government)
19:21:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah, since a few versions. Was horrible unicode support before that
19:21:48 <pikhq> Those were dark times.
19:21:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, *anyway* since it is actually the console that renders it when emacs runs in text mode...
19:22:03 <AnMaster> I'm not sure how relevant emacs handling is here
19:22:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <GregorR> o̸̘̲̐̑̒̈́ͨ <-- is it? <-- looks like a bird in the xchat input field?
19:22:32 <pikhq> Unless you've got Emacs rendering Unicode in plain ASCII.
19:22:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, that would be lossy wouldn't it?
19:23:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, what was it supposed to be...
19:23:10 <pikhq> No, it displays stuff like ñ as \~n
19:23:32 <GregorR> AnMaster: an 'o' with a sh**ton of diacritical marks? :P
19:23:36 <pikhq> Well, I guess it *is* lossy, but nowhere near as lossy as you'd think.
19:23:46 <GregorR> AnMaster: A mess is what it's supposed to be.
19:24:58 <GregorR> Now if you read that it'll be the longest "Hi" ever :P
19:25:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://omploader.org/vMjAyOA
19:25:31 <GregorR> Yup, that's the mess I typed :P
19:25:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, "1/9 = 1.1͒" <-- what is the dirt on the top of the second 1?
19:26:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, err.. that makes no sense
19:26:26 <fizzie> It looks more birdy without the red underlining.
19:27:13 <GregorR> Incidentally, the fact that it doesn't display properly in the text field in XChat is the font, not XChat.
19:27:16 <AnMaster> wait, the window bg in xchat isn't white? Looking at the screenshot placed on white bg...
19:27:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, I know. But I also blame GTK+ rendering. Since the channel window uses the same font as my terminal...
19:28:08 <AnMaster> and it renders better in konsole than in xchat
19:28:20 <AnMaster> so clearly there is something more than just dejavu having issues.
19:28:20 <GregorR> And your terminal can figure it out???
19:28:20 <GregorR> Mine sure as heck can't :P
19:28:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, konsole from KDE 3.5.10
19:28:36 <fizzie> Gimp says the main window background is #fafafa.
19:28:50 <GregorR> Do re mi fa fa fa sol la si do
19:29:28 <fizzie> And it indeed looks better in my rxvt-unicode than xchat, even though both are using dejavu sans mono for the main text.
19:29:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, what has that got to do with this, huh? (sing to scale)
19:30:02 <GregorR> Do re mi #fafafa sol la si do
19:30:03 <AnMaster> unless I got syllable count wrong
19:30:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, what the hell are you on about...
19:30:57 <fizzie> I assume it was a reference to my #fafafa comment.
19:32:24 <fizzie> "Y͟͞e͟͞s͟͞." looks better here. No breaks in the lines.
19:32:47 <fizzie> (That's with combining double macron below/above.)
19:34:00 <Warrigal> Y̲̅e̲̅s̲̅ looks better than Y͟͞e͟͞s͟͞ here. You can't see the top of the Y in Y͟͞e͟͞s͟͞; it's squished.
19:34:05 <GregorR> The confused version of Español
19:34:10 <fizzie> V⃨⃛e⃨⃛r⃨⃛y⃨⃛ ⃨⃛u⃨⃛s⃨⃛e⃨⃛f⃨⃛u⃨⃛l⃨⃛.
19:35:03 <fizzie> Unicode should have a fancy logo-glyph, something like the TeX/LaTeX logos.
19:35:37 <GregorR> You should be able to draw arbitrary artistic works with Unicode alone.
19:35:42 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> Y̲̅e̲̅s̲̅ looks better than Y͟͞e͟͞s͟͞ here. You can't see the top of the Y in Y͟͞e͟͞s͟͞; it's squished. <-- here the latter one looks better, In the former one the Y is squished for me. So the opposite of your one
19:35:51 <GregorR> Combining pixel in cell 0,0
19:35:53 <pikhq> Y̲̅e̲̅s̲̅ looks better than Y͟͞e͟͞s͟͞ here. The second one is a bunch of boxes.
19:35:56 <GregorR> Combining pixel in cell 0,1
19:36:06 <AnMaster> unless you mean in the channel window, then the former is messy
19:36:06 <pikhq> GregorR: There's space free.
19:36:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's exactly the other way around here: yours has breaks, GregorR's doesn't.
19:36:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, the second one is better. In both channel window and input line.
19:36:40 <pikhq> How did something from an IM session get here?
19:36:59 <pikhq> Ah well. "I like cycling" is probably the least embarassing thing to mispaste.
19:37:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't see it anywhere?
19:37:26 <fizzie> The box drawing set has all possible sets of quadrants, so you get 4 pixels per cell like that. ▗▚▚▄▟▀▀ and so on.
19:37:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: It looked like it; something weird with terminal.
19:37:42 <GregorR> fizzie: Now to make a GIMP plugin
19:38:16 <pikhq> This unicdoe is fucking with my terminal. :(
19:38:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, is that the script-fu thing mentioned in gimp menus? I have no clue
19:38:25 <GregorR> pikhq: Your terminal likes it though.
19:38:29 <GregorR> pikhq: It's a dirty, dirty terminal.
19:38:42 <pikhq> GregorR: And it's not redrawing right.
19:42:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, aren't you supposed to reply something to that
19:46:36 <AnMaster> GregorR, add ipv6 for http://choosemyhat.com/ :)
19:46:49 <ehird> prgmr don't do ipv6 on their new data center.
19:46:57 <ehird> (GregorR may or may not be on it.)
19:47:51 <GregorR> inet6 addr: fe80::a800:ff:fe59:ad41/64 Scope:Link
19:47:51 <AnMaster> that works around the LAN issue mostly, since NAT for IPv6 is probably less common than for IPv4
19:48:15 <ehird> It's so obvious now.
19:48:42 <pikhq> GregorR: IPv6 has link-specific addresses. Only valid on a single link.
19:48:52 <AnMaster> GregorR needs to be Scope:Global... Scope:Link is for "on same physical network", as in, no routers...
19:49:11 <ehird> GregorR: talk to the prgmr guy
19:49:17 <ehird> you have to get a static ip for ipv6 i think
19:49:24 <ehird> and it requires talking to him, iirc
19:50:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, "I'm not going to wear any particularly hot hats (such as my red velour fedora) during the heat of summer. That's just unpleasant." <-- is it summer where you are atm?
19:50:31 <GregorR> I was just informing you that I don't have IPv6
19:50:37 <ehird> AnMaster - not understanding hemispheres since N.
19:50:38 <GregorR> I don't care enough to go on about it :P
19:50:46 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yes, I am in the northern hemisphere X-D
19:50:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, I wasn't sure about that
19:51:12 <ehird> He just had to check that Purdue or wherever hadn't moved to, say, Greenland overnight.
19:51:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, any other of the hats that are too hot currently?
19:51:27 <AnMaster> so I can select the really cool ones
19:56:09 <GregorR> ehird: Greenland is also in the northern hemisphere :P
19:56:17 <GregorR> Eh, I probably wouldn't want to wear the beret.
19:56:23 <ehird> That really was a bad example, wasn't it.
20:06:39 <ehird> SMOEK//////////////////////////////////////
20:08:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:10:19 * ais523 once again proves that they can't type question marks at the end of lines
20:10:34 <AnMaster> ais523, for me it is + or = that ? gets turned into
20:10:45 <ais523> AnMaster: ? is shift-/ here
20:10:50 <ais523> I keep pressing the shift slightly after I press the /
20:11:07 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
20:11:45 <AnMaster> ais523, ? is shift++, = is shift-0
20:12:11 <AnMaster> and 9 0 + ' backspace where that ' is the dead key used in é
20:15:29 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster won't say "?"; he's in "ignore ehird and try and make that relevant all the time" mode.
20:16:48 <ehird> ais523: Be careful not to quote any part of what I say in a message; he'll go "PLZ DON'T RELAY HIM TO ME I'M BUSY IGNORING HIM".
20:17:25 <ais523> ehird: if he was that committed, he could just block any comment with the word "ehird" in
20:17:34 <ehird> I wouldn't be surprised.
20:17:58 <ehird> ais523: or he's just using an ignore-replies mode
20:18:03 <ehird> so "^ehird:" will ignore
20:18:15 <ehird> I wonder if there are any real words with "ehird" in them
20:19:13 <ais523> $ grep ehird /usr/share/dict/words | wc -l
20:19:20 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:19:31 <ehird> ais523: if it's not the OED it doesn't count\
20:31:00 <AnMaster> <ais523> <AnMaster> / <-- btw, where did I say that?
20:31:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a reference to an old joke of oerjan's
20:31:37 <ehird> actually, i invented preëmpting AnMaster's ?s/whats I think
20:31:40 <ehird> or at least me and oerjan invented it independently
20:31:52 <ehird> of course you might just be bullshitting to satisfy him without mentioning me...
20:37:01 <fizzie> ehird: Google's one-trillion-tokens-from-the web corpus -- http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Catalog/CatalogEntry.jsp?catalogId=LDC2006T13 -- has in their 13.5-million-or-so word vocabulary a single ehird-containing word: "Holehird", with 947 uses. [Acknowledgements: ineiros's sql database version of said corpus.]
20:37:32 <fizzie> "Holehird Gardens - The Home of The Lakeland Horticultural Society"
20:37:50 <ehird> fizzie: if AnMaster doesn't reply to that "Holehird Gardens" line, we'll know he's ignoring everything with ehird in it!
20:37:55 <ehird> (not actually, but.)
20:39:33 <GregorR> I think we know full well that 'e's not.
20:39:54 <ehird> GregorR: is that meant to be a joke? i do not understand this line.
20:40:11 <GregorR> I used two apostrophes in a single word, making it weird and confusing :P
20:40:17 <GregorR> The first apostrophe was the removed 'h'
20:40:25 <GregorR> The second was the removed ' i'
20:40:34 <ehird> so did you say that for a reason or just to do that :P
20:41:00 <GregorR> No, I've been writing how I talk recently, so whenever I would drop the 'h' when I talk, I drop it in text.
20:41:11 <GregorR> As it turns out, that's a place where I would drop the 'h'.
20:41:22 <ais523> I know that Lewis Carrol used to spell "shan't" as "sha'n't"
20:41:35 <ais523> to mark all the locations where letters were ommitted
20:41:51 <ehird> ais523: I daresay that looking towards Lewis Carrol for serious linguistic advice is akin to... something stupid.
20:41:59 <GregorR> ' ''''' '''' '''' '''' '''' ''''.
20:42:31 <ehird> that's a ditto mark.
20:43:22 <pikhq> ehird: Bu...but jabberwocky!
20:43:35 <ehird> pikhq: I said *serious* linguistic advice. :P
20:43:57 <ais523> ehird: Lewis Carrol actually did quite a lot of interesting seriously-applicable stuff
20:44:06 <ais523> AFAIR, he was the first person to realise that an international dateline was needed
20:44:26 <ehird> Carroll, as it turns out, has two Ls.
20:44:41 <ehird> ais523: I like the Achilles thingy he did.
20:44:50 <ehird> http://www.ditext.com/carroll/tortoise.html
20:45:36 -!- ehird has set topic: Proceed! And speak *slowly*, please! *Shorthand* isn't invented yet! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:47:07 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Oh nose :P <-- what?
20:47:15 <ehird> AnMaster: His nose fell off.
20:47:26 <ehird> He meant to say, "No nose :P"
20:55:48 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:21:51 <ehird> http://www.vandenbrande.com/wp/2009/06/breadbox64-a-twitter-client-for-the-c64/
21:23:17 <ehird> Hey, pikhq stopped ignoring me.
21:23:27 <ehird> Maybe I should talk about sheep fornication or something.
21:24:09 <ehird> GregorR: But what exactly... are you... in? Perhaps a sheep's anus?
21:24:22 <ehird> YOU CANNOT DENY IT
21:24:43 <ehird> Defining Features of the Welsh, by Elliott Hird
21:24:48 <ehird> 1. Intercourse with sheep.
21:25:29 <ehird> 3. Cwm cwm sheep, cwm cwm cwm sheep cwm anus cwm cwm cwm ejaculation cwm.
21:25:56 <ehird> So, uh, I don't think there's many topics you can go to from "having sex wit hsheep".
21:25:59 <ehird> with sheep, rather.
21:26:06 * ehird hard-resets the channel.
21:26:30 <ehird> Wow, this must be like when RAM remembers its contents post-reboot.
21:26:36 <ehird> So, uh, New Zealand.
21:26:46 <ehird> GregorR: but you can't go anywhere from New Zealand but to sheep intercourse...
21:27:16 <ehird> So... that's not... really... helpful.
21:27:25 <GregorR> It's the Wales of the southern hemisphere.
21:27:42 <GregorR> Oh, I see, you DON'T want to talk about bestiality.
21:28:18 <ais523> hey, who removed the Konami Code from the topic?
21:28:36 <ais523> I doubt it, she's only ever used IRC once and I was there
21:29:54 <ehird> She set up a timed action.
21:54:15 -!- augur has joined.
21:59:07 * FireFly 's broken English is broken
22:00:07 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:00:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:01:57 * oerjan dreams of a computer you could actually trust to register your mouse clicks deterministically, _even_ if it happens to be on the verge of thrashing.
22:03:18 * GregorR dreams of people having less stupid dreams.
22:03:45 -!- coppro has joined.
22:03:51 * oerjan dreams of swatting GregorR -----###
22:04:06 * GregorR dreams of that too *wink wink nudge nudge*
22:04:39 * oerjan swats GregorR a couple of times -----### -----###
22:07:14 * oerjan wonders how many closet heterosexuals there are in this channel
22:07:25 <oerjan> because i sure as hell cannot recall any open ones :D
22:11:37 * GregorR looks for somebody to sheepishly raise their hand.
22:15:18 <Warrigal> Hey, programmers. Tell me this:
22:15:38 <Warrigal> You're writing a program, and you find you need to perform a certain mathematical operation.
22:15:58 <Warrigal> Do you use the implementation of the operation in the standard library, or write your own and use it without testing it first?
22:16:26 <ais523> depends on what the operation is
22:16:34 <ais523> if it's addition, I write my own and test it
22:16:37 <ais523> although, only in INTERCAL
22:17:28 <Warrigal> Are you just trying to avoid giving the obvious answer?
22:17:57 * oerjan assumes Warrigal was joking
22:18:23 <Warrigal> Maaybe it was a rhetorical question.
22:19:23 <oerjan> of course it might happen that a programmer doesn't realize a function is in the standard library, if it's not obvious
22:19:46 <oerjan> that the functions are identical
22:20:16 <oerjan> and they're bad at math :D
22:20:34 <Warrigal> So if I said to you, "I bet you $100 that the number 7 is not prime", would you accept the bet, or instead say, "Let's change that a bit. I bet you $100 that there is no pair of positive integers, apart from 1 and 7, whose product is 7."
22:21:08 <Warrigal> I think a wise person would bet using the mathematical terms themselves, not their definitions.
22:21:19 <Warrigal> Some guy was unwise and chose to bet using the definition instead.
22:21:41 <Warrigal> Though this isn't strictly pertinent, he just said "integers" instead of "positive integers".
22:22:04 <oerjan> um yes that is pertinent
22:22:34 <GregorR> Every integer divides by both 1 and -1, so if "integers" is all that's specified, the only prime numbers are -1 and 1 :P
22:23:31 <oerjan> given that getting the definition wrong is the main reason he bungled. of course it is still unwise to use the definition since you _do_ have a higher chance of getting that wrong, if it is at all complicated.
22:25:39 <oerjan> Warrigal: what i was referring to with my first comment was if someone has a definition and don't _realize_ it corresponds to a function in the standard library. they would then of course write their own version.
22:26:46 <oerjan> some recent discussions with extend euclidean algorithms come to mind. although that is unfortunately not in standard libraries, either...
22:27:32 <GregorR> I started using a proportional font so all these combining characters would render right…...
22:27:43 <GregorR> In this font, … is wider than "..." :P
22:28:33 <Warrigal> I imagine it's supposed to be wider and the monospace font booched it.
22:28:39 <pikhq> In this font, … is as wide as all other (single-width) characters.
22:31:58 <pikhq> Arrows in Haskell.
22:32:04 <pikhq> Whoa, that's deep.
22:32:44 <oerjan> <pikhq> GregorR: Unicode has a combining / . <-- i was all, it has a slashdot character??, there for a moment
22:34:28 <oerjan> > ((+1) *** (+2)) (10,20)
22:34:36 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c b' c'. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b, b') (c, c')
22:35:54 <oerjan> Arrows are a generalization of (->), and the -> instance is still useful...
22:36:18 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, I get that. And that's pretty deep.
22:36:52 -!- Pthing has joined.
22:39:22 <oerjan> <pikhq> (what, exactly, a tellular celephone is is left as an exercise for the reader)
22:39:30 <oerjan> a celephone from tellus, obviously
22:39:50 <pikhq> May take some getting used to the arrow operators, but hey, there's nicer notation than that to use. :)
22:40:24 <oerjan> no, definitely _not_ a cellphone
22:40:33 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
22:41:59 <pikhq> Man. A generalisation of monads, in a way. Heheh.
22:42:49 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
22:43:23 <oerjan> they had to borrow that operation back from Arrows, because typeclasses have stupid inheritance
23:40:12 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:42:38 <ehird> 22:01 oerjan dreams of a computer you could actually trust to register your mouse clicks deterministically, _even_ if it happens to be on the verge of thrashing.
23:42:44 <ehird> you could do an OS that does that
23:43:31 <ehird> 22:07 oerjan wonders how many closet heterosexuals there are in this channel
23:43:31 <ehird> you're forgetting the bisexuals!
23:44:25 <ehird> 22:27 GregorR: I started using a proportional font so all these combining characters would render right…...
23:48:45 <ehird> you'll love it soon enough
23:48:49 <ehird> btw use a good sans serif font
23:49:43 -!- Halph has joined.
23:49:53 <ehird> hi Halph aka coppro
23:51:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
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00:05:26 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out).
00:05:33 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
00:06:32 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
00:06:35 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
00:06:43 <ehird> GregorR: it's a bit single-minded, don't you think?
00:06:51 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. 9|<Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR>
00:07:01 <HackEgo> 1|<Aftran> I've always wanted to kill someone. >.>
00:07:03 <ehird> ...wtf at that cutoff
00:07:06 <ehird> HackEgo: 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. 9|<Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR>
00:07:19 <HackEgo> 2|<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
00:07:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ DB="sqlite3 quotes/quote.db" \ \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ ARG=$1 \ ID=$((ARG+0)) \ if [ "$ID" = "$ARG" ] \ then \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE id='$ID \ else \ ARG=`echo "$ARG" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE
00:07:57 <Warrigal> English doesn't have a good way to represent the [y] sound.
00:08:19 <ehird> Status: Synchronising...
00:08:19 <ehird> Downloaded 4313 messages
00:08:23 <ehird> If you disconnect now, you will have access to mail back to 1 June 2009.
00:08:25 <ehird> Go into Unstable Connection Mode
00:08:31 <ehird> That's like TWO MONTHS MINUS TEN DAYS.
00:08:55 <ais523> is that more or less than you were expecting?
00:10:37 <GregorR> Neither is `fetch or `help
00:10:53 * Warrigal will never, ever stop rocking.
00:11:08 <GregorR> And bin/"fetch bin/help" is definitely not a file :P
00:11:34 <Warrigal> `echo `a `b ĉ ð ə ſ ` `h `i `j χ `l `m ŋ `o φ `q ɚ ʃ þ `u `v `w `x `y `z
00:11:35 <HackEgo> `a `b ĉ ð ə ſ ` `h `i `j χ `l `m ŋ `o φ `q ɚ ʃ þ `u `v `w `x `y `z
00:12:33 <Warrigal> Should I just assign a, b, h, i, j, l, m, o, q, u, v, w, x, y and z randomly so that I will mess up all the time instead of just half the time?
00:12:56 <Warrigal> Maybe I should set `y and `Y to be ψ and Ψ.
00:58:12 <ehird> Hahahaha, amazon.co.uk stock a Mac Pro with 1GB of memory.
00:58:36 <ais523> I don't know whether 1GB is a lot nowadays
00:58:50 <ehird> ais523: 1GB isn't even enough for a laptop.
00:59:26 <ehird> ais523: For a Mac Pro, you'd be looking at 6GB at the lowest, 8GB to 12GB average and 24GB upper
00:59:52 <ehird> The one listed has a quad-core Xeon processor with it, so it's rather ridiculous.
01:00:00 <ehird> It'd be an utter waste.
01:01:21 <pikhq> 4GB is $50 or less.
01:01:22 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah. Even in a bloody netbook I'd stick 2GB in.
01:01:53 <ehird> 1GB in a high-end, boutique workstation with a quad-core processor is just unbelievably ridiculous.
01:02:06 <pikhq> ais523: Lemme put it this way: my 5 year old system that I just upgraded from had 1GB of RAM.
01:02:21 <pikhq> And it wasn't a particularly good system 5 years ago.
01:02:48 <ehird> pikhq: Note that ais523 has gone on record saying something along the lines of "a few years ago I'd expect to pay £500 for a computer (laptop); now i'd expect to pay about £200-£300"
01:03:06 <ehird> Talking about anything high-end may be lost in translation.
01:03:30 <pikhq> ehird: High-end? 4G isn't high-end, it's what I'd expect in a $300 computer.
01:03:33 <ais523> this one cost £420, along with things like the case and the external floppy drive
01:03:43 <ehird> It CAME WITH A CASE?
01:03:53 <ais523> no, that was bought separately
01:03:57 <ais523> but I only remember the total cost
01:04:40 <pikhq> ais523: Let's put this in perspective for you: 4G of RAM is $50. A quad core processor starts at roughly $100 and works its way up from there. A 1TB HD is about $80.
01:04:51 <ehird> Oh yeah, said machine also came with a 250GB drive.
01:04:56 <pikhq> Your concept of "high end" by now is everyone's concept of "cheap computer".
01:04:58 <ehird> ...which is what I have in this consumer-level machine.
01:05:18 <ehird> ooh, that's clever
01:05:30 <ehird> a flashing fake banner ad saying "NO JOKE!! YOU WON 1 MILLION DOLLARS!!"
01:05:30 <ais523> I still don't get why people end up needing all that extra space; are the programs they run really bloated?
01:05:33 <ehird> ...on an ad blocker site
01:05:40 <ehird> ais523: Uhh, it's not programs that take up the space.
01:05:52 <ehird> ais523: Think TV, movies, music, raw data dumps.
01:05:53 <pikhq> My hard drive is mostly empty right now, but.
01:05:57 <ais523> ehird: well, the data formats they use being bloated counts as program bloat to me
01:06:07 <ais523> also, TV shouldn't take up disk space, just bandwidth
01:06:14 <ais523> unless you're in the habit of recording everything you watch
01:06:30 <ehird> ais523: Yeah, I looooooooove my watching schedule being dictated by the TV companies.
01:06:35 <ehird> Why would I ever want to have a personal library.
01:06:45 <ehird> After all, it's not popular; nobody buys DVDs, after all.
01:07:02 <ais523> I get really annoyed at people who watch the same TV program over and over again
01:07:22 <pikhq> Most of ~/video/ is a queue of things that I have yet to watch.
01:07:29 <ehird> Ever heard of hedonism?
01:07:36 <ehird> If they like watching it again, why not?
01:07:42 <pikhq> (copied via SMB from other people's hard drives at college)
01:07:54 -!- Halph has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:07:57 <ehird> ais523: anyway, there's a huge cultural gap. You don't even like starting a "bloated" modern browser.
01:08:17 <ehird> It's highly unlikely it would be possible to quickly explain to you why high-end machines are needed.
01:08:25 <pikhq> Even I, the freak that uses Ratpoison most of the time, use a modern browser.
01:08:36 <ais523> well, I use Firefox mostly
01:08:37 <pikhq> Granted, it's a modern browser with a freakish interface, but that's beside the point.
01:08:52 <ais523> although I used Epiphany for a while while Firefox 3 was broken on Linux
01:08:56 <ehird> I wonder what ais523 would do if told to edit an HD movie.
01:09:11 <ais523> cut the tape up and stick it back together again with sellotape?
01:09:15 <ais523> I'm still disappointed that that doesn't work
01:09:29 <pikhq> Works for anything on DVHS.
01:09:29 <ehird> ais523: I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but most HD movies are shot with digital cameras.
01:09:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:09:35 <ehird> Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
01:10:10 <ais523> however, most people don't go around editing large videos
01:10:12 <pikhq> (note: most things are not on D-VHS. Shame, too. Bluray quality, on VHS tapes, in the 90s? Fuck yeah.)
01:10:17 <ais523> also, why HD? most screens can't handle that anyway
01:10:25 <ehird> ais523: Any screen above 1280x768 can handle HD.
01:10:33 <ehird> ais523: Also, ever heard of a thing called CINEMA?
01:10:40 <ehird> They project high-resolution movies on huuuuuuuge screens.
01:10:45 <pikhq> I've had a monitor that can handle HD video for 15 years now.
01:10:46 <ais523> yes, I used to go there occasionally
01:10:59 <ais523> most people wouldn't take their computers to the cinema to persuade them to show videos stored there, though
01:11:00 <ehird> Anyway, some of us don't like being constrained by our hardware.
01:11:06 <ehird> Some of us don't like waiting 3 seconds for basic operations to be completed.
01:11:08 <pikhq> Also, HD video editing is getting ridiculously common.
01:11:10 <ais523> nor would the cinema likely accept the request
01:11:17 <ehird> Some of su just don't like hating our computers; they should work, and work fast
01:11:25 <pikhq> HD video cameras are not too expensive, and Youtube does HD video nowadays.
01:11:26 <ehird> Some of us do non-trivial computation tasks.
01:11:34 <ehird> Maybe because we can; maybe because we want to; maybe for a greater good.
01:11:37 <ehird> It doesn't matter.
01:11:53 <pikhq> ais523: You're approximately 10 years behind the upgrade curve, I think. ;)
01:11:57 <ehird> If you told me to do anything on the computer you're using right now, I'd likely be throwing it out of the window within a few hours.
01:12:10 <pikhq> ehird: Using it as a router?
01:12:11 <ais523> ehird: don't, I like this one
01:12:14 <ais523> and it's fine for programming on
01:12:25 <ehird> If a computer's own limitations and foibles affect what I'm doing to the point of actually hampering it or changing my workflow, that computer is as good as program.
01:12:42 <ehird> DO I PRONOUNCE WORDS BEFORE TYPING THEM OR SOMETHING
01:12:42 <pikhq> ehird: But, man. A Mac Pro with 1G RAM?
01:12:43 <ais523> about 1G memory, according to top
01:12:51 <ais523> processor speed, I don't know offhand; it's a Celeron M
01:12:53 <pikhq> I didn't know they made 1G DDR3 RAM.
01:12:59 <ehird> pikhq: it's not ddr3
01:13:00 <pikhq> ais523: /proc/cpuinfo
01:13:10 <ehird> so Core architecture (= Core 2)
01:13:15 <ehird> (Core brand = NetBurst, I think)
01:13:18 <ais523> 1595 MHz processor speed
01:13:20 <pikhq> ehird: I was only faintly aware they made 1G DDR2 RAM.
01:13:29 <ehird> That's speeeeeeeeeeeeed.
01:13:32 <pikhq> I just upgraded from that.
01:13:42 <ehird> ais523: How many cores?
01:14:10 <ehird> ais523: Oh god, if I ever get into a situation where I ask to use your computer, please hit me over the head with a cluebat.
01:14:12 <pikhq> Seriously, your system is about on par with a netbook, performance-wise.
01:14:17 <pikhq> And sucks a lot more power.
01:14:23 <ehird> pikhq: A gigantic netbook that takes up floorspace!
01:14:33 <pikhq> ehird: Celeron-M implies a laptop.
01:14:37 <ais523> ehird: the strange thing is, this is powerful enough for most of the things I want to do
01:14:40 <ais523> and yes, it is a laptop
01:14:41 <ehird> pikhq: He bought the case separately.
01:14:47 <ehird> ais523: you assembled your own laptop?
01:15:01 <ais523> it's one of the Dell ones which came with Linux preinstalled
01:15:04 <ais523> and a Windows XP manual
01:15:09 <ehird> You said something you bought a case yourself.
01:15:10 <ais523> and I mean, the case to carry it around in
01:15:36 <ais523> you strike me as someone who's never tried to transport a laptop to work every day...
01:15:54 <ehird> It doesn't just contain a CPU.
01:15:56 <pikhq> He's criticising your terminology.
01:16:01 <ais523> yes, it also contains a motherboard and drives, etc
01:16:05 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:16:10 <ehird> I'ma start calling it a RAM case.
01:16:14 <ehird> It contains RAM, after all.
01:16:20 -!- coppro has joined.
01:16:27 <pikhq> I prefer calling it an Internet case.
01:16:34 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that in some systems, you plug the RAM in the side
01:16:35 <ehird> That's how my computer works.
01:16:39 <ehird> Gremlins. Gremlin electrons.
01:16:44 <ais523> I've never yet seen a system with an external motherboard, though
01:16:44 <ehird> 01:16 ais523: I'm pretty sure that in some systems, you plug the RAM in the side
01:16:51 <ehird> I'm fairly sure that's completely false.
01:16:57 <ehird> No, not fairly sure. Entirely sure.
01:17:01 <ais523> old laptops used to, they had some internal RAM
01:17:08 <pikhq> ais523, imagine it's the year 2000.
01:17:08 <ais523> but to get a decent amount you used external RAM too
01:17:12 <pikhq> You're using a C64.
01:17:14 <ehird> It's not a laptop if you can't fit it on your lap, ais523.
01:17:29 <pikhq> That's the analogy.
01:17:30 <ais523> just normally don't, a table is a lot more stable
01:17:31 <ehird> What, an 80s laptop?
01:17:39 <ehird> Those are the only ones that'll have external ram.
01:17:41 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, right. 80s *laptop*.
01:17:52 <ais523> anyway, this isn't that old; it came with Ubuntu Feisty
01:17:54 <pikhq> Which are not laptops. :P
01:17:58 <ais523> which therefore must have existed at the time I bought it
01:18:06 <ais523> it was bottom-end at the time, though
01:18:10 <ehird> "80s laptop: It Can Fit Into A Briefcase I Guess, If You Have A Really Big Briefcase And Are Also As Strong As The Hulk"
01:18:20 <pikhq> ehird: Also, has a CRT.
01:18:27 <ehird> But itcanfitintoabriefcaseiguessifyouhaveareallybigbriefcaseandarealsoasstrongasthehulktop wasn't as catchy.
01:18:39 <pikhq> ais523: 5 releases ago.
01:18:52 <pikhq> You... Seriously bought that system 2 years ago.
01:19:13 <ais523> pikhq: I feel no need to buy high-end laptops, modern technology works on lower- and lower- end things as time goes on
01:19:35 <ais523> in fact, if it weren't for things like video editing and Windows driving specs up, probably hardware would become less powerful over time as the software got better
01:19:44 <ehird> ais523: It's worth noting that if we went buy the "but Joe Sixpack doesn't need to do any more than word processing and email" argument, we'd be using 1984 Macintoshes.
01:19:55 <ehird> It was measured; word processing tasks were just about equal with the Macintosh as on a modern system.
01:20:00 <ehird> Sometimes the Mac beat it.
01:20:00 <ais523> ehird: it's not about what Joe Sixpack wants to do; it's about what /I/ want to do
01:20:14 <pikhq> ais523: You really should've gotten a netbook.
01:20:14 <ehird> ais523: yes, but that doesn't mean that high end machines aren't useful for most people
01:20:20 <pikhq> Really, truly, epicly.
01:20:21 <ehird> you said that; it's not true
01:20:24 <ehird> you're the exception, really
01:20:26 <ais523> pikhq: they didn't exist then, it was just before they started to be invented
01:20:38 <ehird> ais523: eee pc has been out since early 2007 or so
01:20:40 <ehird> maybe before that.
01:20:44 <ehird> admittedly it was 7"
01:20:55 <pikhq> ehird: Roughly the same specs, though.
01:21:19 <ais523> hmm... this was bought in october or november 2007, I think
01:21:49 <pikhq> Now I'm suspecting you also overpayed.
01:22:10 <ais523> don't worry; I knew I was overpaying, so I didn't mind so mcuh
01:22:31 <ehird> so you're saying that you bought this because you didn't need any more
01:22:32 <pikhq> ... You overpayed for an underspecced system.
01:22:33 <ehird> yet you also paid more for it
01:22:43 <ehird> is this failure in rationality apparent to you?
01:22:44 <pikhq> YOU ARE TERRIBLE AT MAKING PURCHASING DECISIONS
01:22:56 <ehird> Let's buy a commodore 64 for £10,000.
01:22:56 <ais523> no, it was a case of not having to think as much when buying it
01:22:59 <ehird> We don't need anything more.
01:23:23 <ehird> ais523: I think "not thinking when making a purchase" is perfectly consistent with "being really bad at making purchasing decisions".
01:23:28 <ehird> In fact, I suspect a correlation...
01:23:30 <pikhq> ehird: Talk to me again in a few hundred years and maybe I will. :P
01:23:47 <ais523> ehird: I hardly ever buy anything but food
01:24:06 <ehird> ais523: Become a breatharian; you won't have to eat food.*
01:24:09 <ehird> *You might die though.
01:24:16 <ais523> I'm the sort of person who effectively tries to encourage a recession
01:24:26 <ehird> I'm sure the economy just loves you.
01:24:33 <ehird> (But if you're actively trying for that, err, why?)
01:24:40 <ehird> (Apart from, y'know, being a discordian.)
01:24:46 <pikhq> What, by spending more money for fewer goods?
01:24:59 <pikhq> That's not encouraging a recession, that's simulating one, buddy.
01:25:08 <pikhq> And just simulating it for yourself.
01:25:12 <ehird> Simulated recession: just add water
01:25:19 <ais523> pikhq: by not buying anything unless I actually want it
01:25:24 <ais523> I'm surprised how many people seem to break that rule
01:25:30 <ais523> and just shop for no apparent reason
01:25:37 <ehird> Nobody sane does that.
01:25:40 <pikhq> ais523: Sure. And you then waste money by spending more for less.
01:25:41 <ehird> maybe you're talking to too many idiots
01:25:53 <pikhq> ehird: He's talking to too many USians.
01:26:01 <ehird> is there a difference :)
01:26:20 <pikhq> Yes, many Americans spend for the sake of spending.
01:26:25 <pikhq> Explains quite a bit.
01:26:30 <ais523> also, when it comes to things that are for fun, rather than actually needed (such as meals in restaurants), I don't enjoy them if I think they're too expensive
01:26:32 <ehird> Idiots do that too
01:26:40 <ais523> I suppose it's sort of an economic equilibrium thing
01:26:47 <pikhq> ais523: Then why are you enjoying your computer?
01:26:53 <ais523> pay more for something if I think it's underpriced (I've been known to refuse discounts in shops before)
01:26:54 <pikhq> You spent too much.
01:26:55 <ehird> ais523: i'd class that under psychological issues...
01:27:00 <ehird> money does exist to be spent, you know
01:27:02 <ais523> and not buy at all if I think it's overpriced
01:27:14 <pikhq> ... You pay more if you think it's underpriced.
01:27:16 <ehird> unless you just like looking at bank accounts sitting at a constant figure
01:27:18 <ais523> and no, money just exists as a sort of scorecard as how well people are doing at capitalism
01:27:22 <pikhq> You, sir, fail at rational thinking.
01:27:33 <ais523> pikhq: why can't I pay more?
01:27:39 <ehird> ais523: so you think you should work your ass off for years, and just buy the bare minimum of food
01:27:50 <ais523> why is it me who's failing at rational thinking?
01:27:54 <ehird> ais523: if everyone applied your logic, the whole world would be full of deadbeats.
01:28:05 <ehird> because why earn more money if your life will be exactly the same but with more effort?
01:28:08 <pikhq> Wasting money is using this tool poorly.
01:28:08 <ais523> back when bartering was around, people paid what they thought things were worth
01:28:25 <ehird> ais523: that's totally not how bartering works psychologically at all, imo
01:28:28 <ais523> I dislike the need to earn money at all
01:28:36 <ehird> ais523: OK; have fun with your communist society.
01:28:39 <pikhq> No, they paid what they could convince the other party to take.
01:28:47 <pikhq> You fail at economics, too.
01:28:54 <ehird> I'll assume you hate all meritocracies, then, ais523; after all, capitalism is an emulation of a meritocracy.
01:29:02 <ais523> ehird: communism doesn't work because there are people who are too selfish around
01:29:11 <ais523> IME, the people who work harder earn less money
01:29:14 <ehird> ais523: So you don't want anybody to have to earn money, and you don't want communism.
01:29:16 <pikhq> ais523: The same is true of all economic systems.
01:29:21 <pikhq> And forms of government.
01:29:26 <ehird> I'm wondering what, precisely, you'd prefer.
01:29:34 <ais523> ehird: oh, I can be aware that no system at all works
01:29:45 <pikhq> ehird: Actually, I'm just wondering what, exactly, he's thinking.
01:29:49 <GregorR> ...........................
01:29:53 <ehird> pikhq: "These drugs are great."
01:30:02 <ais523> ehird: I don't take drugs, I dislike all forms of mind control
01:30:05 <ehird> <ais523> I don't do drugs
01:30:13 <ais523> alcohol is, I suspect, one of them
01:30:18 <GregorR> There are topics you should always try to avoid. They are politics, economics, religion and programming languages. LEARN THE RULES.
01:30:30 <ehird> ais523: If you hate every form of mind control...
01:30:33 <ehird> I assume you don't eat food.
01:30:38 <ais523> pretty much the strongest 'drug'/addictive substance I take is caffeine, and even then only in chocolate, and I'm annoyed about that
01:30:41 <pikhq> GregorR: So, the 4 most important things in life.
01:30:42 <ehird> Or ever cause your sleep patterns to fall out.
01:30:47 <ehird> Oh, wait, you mention those regularly.
01:30:52 <ehird> (The latter, I mean.)
01:30:54 <ais523> ehird: that doesn't mean I think it's a good thing!
01:30:55 <ehird> (Well, the former too.)
01:31:04 <ehird> ais523: You have a choice! Stop eating; drinking.
01:31:05 <pikhq> ais523: Your behavior is highly irrational.
01:31:28 <pikhq> More so than that of people who spend for the sake of spending -- which is amazing.
01:31:46 <ais523> ehird: I dislike death even more than being mind-controlled
01:32:01 <ehird> ais523: You also realise that firing neurons is mind control?
01:32:17 <ais523> no, that's the standard process
01:32:26 <ehird> …by which to control a mind.
01:32:28 <oerjan> stop firing neurons. they deserve job security too!
01:32:41 <ehird> oerjan: neurons shouldn't have a job; they shouldn't have to make money.
01:33:16 <oerjan> that smoothly slithered straight over my head
01:33:40 <ehird> all mimsy were the borogaves
01:33:50 <ehird> (and the nome raths outgrabe)
01:34:04 <ais523> ehird: are you misquoting Jabberwocky deliberately to annoy me?
01:34:13 <ehird> ais523: far too many things annoy you.
01:34:16 <ehird> but no, I just have a bad memory.
01:34:27 <oerjan> i'm not sure how easy it is to fire neutrons, actually, they are electrically neutral after all. well, if you don't need them to go in a particular direction...
01:35:16 <pikhq> oerjan: You merely need a source of radiation.
01:35:33 <oerjan> pikhq: but you cannot steer them
01:35:54 <ais523> the inside of neurons isn't electrically neutral
01:36:03 <ais523> they move around ions in order to do their signalling
01:36:16 <ais523> anyway, we'd better change the subject; I worry that I'm starting to sound like zzo38
01:36:17 <pikhq> oerjan: They may be aimed, though.
01:36:27 * oerjan swats ais523 to get his reading comprehension working -----###
01:36:29 <ehird> I don't think you are
01:36:34 <ais523> and zzo38 is great, but one is enough for the world
01:36:42 <ehird> zzo38 hurts my head
01:36:42 <pikhq> No, you're sounding less intelligent. :P
01:36:59 <ais523> no, you're just disagreeing with me
01:37:07 <oerjan> you could block in some directions, i guess
01:37:14 <pikhq> oerjan: MASSIVELY IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOR
01:37:25 <ehird> ais523: 2 vs 1; democracy wins again
01:37:30 <ehird> pretty low voter turnout though.
01:37:36 <ais523> ehird: I don't believe that democracy makes things true
01:37:45 <ais523> in fact, I suspect hardly anyone believes that
01:37:46 <ehird> ais523: things such as "X is President"?
01:37:54 <ais523> ehird: not even that, sometimes
01:38:07 <ehird> actually, prediction markets and other hiveminds have shown to be quite accurate
01:38:11 <ais523> besides, I meant voting doesn't change the current state of reality
01:38:14 <oerjan> i'll bring it up to 2 vs. 2 by noting that my laptop only has 448 MB RAM
01:38:16 <ais523> I agree that it can be good at predicting
01:38:16 <ehird> very accurate, even
01:38:41 <pikhq> oerjan: And how old is aforementioned laptop, and did you spend far too much money for it even though you could spend less to get more?
01:38:44 <ais523> but voting something to be true now doesn't make it true now, although it can sometimes indirectly change the future
01:39:02 <oerjan> 3 years, and i didn't pay for it :)
01:39:17 <ais523> so just slightly older than mine
01:39:44 <ehird> ais523: didn't pay for it = donated.
01:39:48 <ehird> it was someone else's old laptop
01:39:57 <pikhq> oerjan: So, you're not saying much about his "I should spend more for things" point of view. ;)
01:39:59 <ais523> well, I've been using other people's old computers before I got this one
01:40:01 <ehird> if you seriously think 448 MB of RAM is usual 3 years ago...
01:40:11 <ehird> i didn't know they sold such low-end laptops
01:40:21 <ais523> ehird: and remember, 1 GB of RAM was about standard for low-end laptops 2 years ago
01:40:33 <ais523> I know that you don't pay enough attention to the low-end to know it exists, but it does
01:40:33 <ehird> ais523: only very low end ones
01:40:42 <ehird> most people put in the extra £30 to have a system that isn't cripplingly useless
01:40:54 <ais523> ehird: I have a system that isn't cripplingly useless
01:40:55 <pikhq> ehird: 448MB of RAM? Man. I had a 10 year old system with more than that.
01:40:57 <ehird> i bought this computer with 1GB of RAM in 2006; it's consumer level; and I regretted it
01:41:09 <ehird> i spent £20 to have it at 2.5GB of RAM dec 08
01:41:13 <ehird> and it's far, far better
01:41:20 <ehird> even low-end tasks
01:41:20 <ais523> I'm shocked that even makes a difference
01:41:25 <ehird> ais523: it makes a huge difference
01:41:34 <ehird> hard drives are cripplingly slow
01:41:42 <pikhq> Modern kernels use RAM for a cache.
01:41:46 <ais523> I hardly ever go into swap, though
01:42:00 <ais523> and most of the programs I use will be loaded close to startup
01:42:04 <pikhq> Hardly ever? Implies you don't have much caching going.
01:42:04 <ais523> or else are programming language interpreters
01:42:08 <ais523> or else are programs I just wrote
01:42:13 <ehird> ais523: i don't think you realise how strange your OS usage is
01:42:17 <ais523> only the second could be sensibly cached
01:42:28 <ehird> nobody uses the low-resource usage linux. nobody is conservative with their apps, preferring terminal apps.
01:42:36 <ehird> (I mean "nobody" in a statistical sense)
01:42:42 <ais523> ehird: I know it isn't a common pattern; but why are you criticising me for picking a laptop that suits the way I use a laptop?
01:42:50 <pikhq> ehird: Well, I prefer terminal apps, but that's because I have odd tastes in UI.
01:42:55 <ehird> I'm criticizing you for saying that higher-end things are mostly useless.
01:43:18 <ehird> an average LOW-END workload would be slow and painful on your machine
01:43:51 <pikhq> I do DVD encodes rather often, for example.
01:43:53 <pikhq> Also, I run Gentoo.
01:44:03 <ais523> this laptop doesn't even have DVD codecs installed
01:44:15 <ehird> ais523: you keep proving the point...
01:44:26 <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
01:44:40 <ehird> 01:44 ais523: after all, what are DVD players for?
01:44:44 <ehird> I'm putting it on a shirt.
01:44:52 <ehird> I'm setting up an online store where people can buy this on a shirt.
01:44:52 <ais523> we have a quotedb, if you want to put it in there
01:45:02 <ehird> ais523: I'm fairly sure we don't, actually.
01:45:13 <ehird> Despite the fact that we used to have a link to it in the topic, it doesn't actually exist.
01:45:26 <ehird> That doesn't count; it has Sine too.
01:45:30 <ais523> it was used earlier today; I don't know if you noticed or not
01:45:33 <ais523> and why doesn't it count?
01:45:39 <ehird> Anyway, this is far too mind-boggling for just a quote db.
01:45:41 <ais523> I can't see any way you could claim that hackego's quotedb is not a quotedb
01:45:50 <ehird> It isn't an #esoteric quotedb
01:45:50 <GregorR> Oh, you need an EXCLUSIVE quotedb :P
01:45:57 <ehird> GregorR: Shut up, it's irrelevant
01:45:58 <ais523> it's ours in the sense that we use it
01:46:02 <ehird> This needs a whole business.
01:46:05 <ehird> ais523: "We have a google"
01:46:15 <ehird> "You can use it if you'd like"
01:46:17 <ais523> ehird: slightly weird phrasing I think, but not false
01:46:24 <GregorR> I made a shirt of something a friend said once: "This thing cannot not work, if it works."
01:46:37 <ehird> GregorR: I read that without the not first
01:47:15 <GregorR> Unicode needs hangman characters.
01:49:07 <ehird> I suppose it will have to do:
01:49:15 <ehird> `addquote <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
01:49:16 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
01:49:26 <ehird> ais523: Now, did you actually mean that literally? Speak now or forever hold your pieces.
01:49:51 <ais523> ehird: it's a question
01:49:57 <ais523> how can you mean a question literally
01:50:12 <ehird> ais523: It's open to interpretation like all language.
01:50:17 <ehird> Now what the heck did you actually mean
01:50:42 <pikhq> ais523: I use my computer in lieu of a TV.
01:50:44 <ais523> I mean, if you can already play DVDs, why buy a computer for the purpose?
01:50:56 <ehird> AnMaster: You're meant to be ignoring me.
01:50:57 <pikhq> It's much nicer this way; I don't get ads and it doesn't afraid of anything.
01:51:02 <ais523> pikhq: IME computers aren't within sufficient range of a sofa to manage that
01:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, took you off on trial a few minutes ago
01:51:12 <ehird> <ais523> TV tuner cards don't exist.
01:51:16 <ehird> <ais523> BitTorrent doesn't exist.
01:51:24 <pikhq> My computer has an HDMI out port...
01:51:27 <ehird> <ais523> Heck, legal download services don't exist.
01:51:27 <ais523> it's too hard to find legal torrents
01:51:32 <pikhq> As do most recent computers.
01:51:43 <ais523> and I don't torrent at all, not even legally, because people would assume I was doing something illegal
01:52:03 <ais523> (or that the person at the other end was doing something illegal; I've seen it argued that leeching is legal for you but illegal for the uploader)
01:52:07 <pikhq> I suppose next you'll tell me you voted BNP or something?
01:52:20 <ais523> no, I strongly disagree with the BNP's policies
01:52:34 <ais523> even ignoring the immigration policy that gets them into so much trouble, the other policies are all awful too
01:52:40 <pikhq> It's like freaking Chewbacca on Endor: IT MAKES NO SENSE! IF CHEWBACCA IS ON ENDOR, YOU MUST ACQUIT!
01:52:46 <ehird> If I'm hearing you right, ais523... you shouldn't do something that is legal if it'll make Other People(TM) think it's illegal?
01:52:49 <ais523> they seem to want to make the UK into a police state
01:52:51 <pikhq> Erm, I mean, cease to be irrational.
01:52:56 <ehird> MY MIND IS MELTING AND I WANT TO DIE ;_;
01:53:11 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, piracy is legal in Sweden. Yarr.
01:53:13 <ais523> ehird: yes, not when the people who give you your internet service have a clause requiring that all use must be legal
01:53:18 <ais523> otherwise they might cut you off by mistake
01:53:21 <pikhq> ehird: Also Spain.
01:53:31 <ehird> Also Portugal. Wait, I said filesharing, not drugs.
02:09:28 <pikhq> @@ @elite @yow @arr
02:09:28 <ehird> WELL SAY THAT TO MY FACE
02:09:29 <lambdabot> LeOnA, i WanT +0 CONF3$z0rz T|-|ing5 +O yOU ... i \/\/4n+ 70 wR4P yoU In 4 5cArL3T rob3 7RI/\/\/\/\3d Wi+h P0|Y\/INyl C|-|l0RIDE ... i Wan7 T0 E/\/\pTY yOur ashtr4yz0rz ...
02:09:43 <ehird> I want to empty your ash tray.
02:10:02 <ehird> pikhq: You should have done it like this:
02:10:05 <ehird> @. elite . yow arr
02:10:06 <lambdabot> i'/\/\ N0+ AN IRaNi4n!! I vo+ED 4 di4nNE FEiN$t3in!!
02:10:15 <ehird> It looks more confusing and is PoInTfReE
02:11:29 <lambdabot> ... i d0n'+ xn0W whY 8uT, zuDden1Y, I \/\/ant +o DIscu55 dE(1iNIn9 I.Q. leVELz wI+H a Blue ri8b0N $eN4T3 $UB-Co/\/\/\/\i7T3e!
02:29:35 * ehird decides to learn Erlang, maybe.
02:30:42 <pikhq> ehird: Some of the nice parallelism constructs of Haskell without the monads?
02:31:57 <ehird> I like learning languages.
02:42:23 <pikhq> You will bring us a.
03:09:49 <Slereah> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
03:09:50 <Slereah> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
03:09:50 <Slereah> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
03:09:50 <Slereah> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
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03:10:13 <Slereah> Freenode has strict flood limits
03:10:20 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood_: Hi, Prince.
03:10:49 <pikhq> Looks vaguely like the Prince symbol.
03:11:14 <oerjan> I think that second a is dead.
03:50:52 <Warrigal> Convincing people that this sentence is true is the best thing anyone could do with their time.
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04:43:29 <zzo38> Why did freenode-connect ask my version twice this time?
04:44:36 <zzo38> I changed a few things in PHIRC to object-oriented to allow other protocols to be added using add-in files
04:45:03 <pikhq> Not enough abstraction.
04:45:09 <pikhq> Moar monads! Moar arrows!
04:45:52 <lambdabot> jcreigh says: I've found learning Haskell makes me feel vastly inferior to Haskell coders. ("Oh,", they say, "That's just a fold over the hyper-monad fluxbox list. Here's the one-line replacement
04:46:17 <zzo38> Each protocol class has the following members: $protocol_name start($args) stop($mode) send($cmd) receive($data) idle() process_entry($entry) spacebar() autoanswer($current)
04:48:35 <zzo38> process_entry is used to update the current channel based on what the user types (and can do other things too), spacebar is used if the user pushes space when the command-line is currently blank, autoanswer is used when that configuration option is set, IRC uses it to answer CTRL+A VERSION and stuff like that.
04:48:52 <zzo38> Maybe I can figure out XMPP and make a add-in file for XMPP or for other protocols
04:49:53 <pikhq> oerjan: Y'know, I can no longer look at (most) other languages and see anything interesting in them. I just think "Oh, that? Been meaning to look at that monad."
04:50:07 <zzo38> Basically any one just has to convert IRC-like commands to format to send to the server, and convert things received from the server into IRC-like commands.
04:50:31 <zzo38> Unfortunately I do not understand XMPP.
04:50:39 <pikhq> Or in the case of, say, F#, "Oh, it's Haskell with a worse syntax."
04:50:47 <pikhq> zzo38: It's just a bunch of (absurd) XML.
04:51:53 <zzo38> O, I can see that. I will read it and see if I can understand it enough to make a add-in file to support XMPP
04:52:48 <zzo38> The problem is, I don't know if the XML function in PHP can support partial data to send/receive, but I can try.
04:56:05 <zzo38> O, I can see now. The $is_final parameter can be false for parsing partial XML data.
04:57:35 <pikhq> PHP is not the answer. PHP is the question.
04:58:50 <zzo38> PHP is not the question. PHP is the answer.
04:58:55 <zzo38> No is the question.
04:59:25 <lambdabot> Yes, but will I see the EASTER BUNNY in skintight leather at an IRON
05:00:39 <CESSMASTER> what does that have to do with the airport in ottawa
05:01:31 <oerjan> well, both can only go downhill from here.
05:01:34 <zzo38> Of course, I have also done other things that nobody likes, such as adding a Forth interpreter into MegaZeux.
05:02:44 <zzo38> And what is that message about EASTER BUNNY and IRON MAIDEN and stuff for?
05:03:08 <lambdabot> YOW!! Everybody out of the GENETIC POOL!
05:03:10 <oerjan> random silly quote, i think from Zippy the Pinhead comic
05:04:54 <oerjan> lambdabot: i might already be.
05:05:23 <zzo38> If I make XMPP, is there a server I can make tests of the client with?
05:08:06 <zzo38> XMPP seems a bit complicated, how many RFCs do I have to support?
05:08:22 <Slereah> As a furry, I desire to see this leather easter bunny
05:08:35 <Slereah> http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/23657/2094388230103413284S425x425Q85.jpg
05:10:23 <zzo38> Which other simpler internet chat protocols are there that I might want to try to implement sooner?
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05:45:48 * Warrigal suddenly loses his distaste for relative clauses of the form "which <noun> <predicate>".
05:46:27 <Warrigal> (Where "which" implies "this" or "that", not "its".)
05:47:18 <Warrigal> The cat ate the fish, despite which event I continued putting fish food in the fish bowl anyway.
05:47:42 <Warrigal> The cat might eat the fish, in which case I will continue putting fish food in the fish bowl anyway.
05:51:12 <oerjan> i don't see any clauses of the form "which <noun> <predicate>" up there
05:52:23 <oerjan> maybe you mean "<preposition> which <noun> <predicate>"?
05:52:54 <oerjan> those are "<preposition> which <noun> <pronoun> <predicate>"
05:54:12 <Warrigal> "<preposition> which <noun> <independent clause>", even.
05:54:47 <Warrigal> Okay, so those are fine, at least. Can you think of a reason for using an actual "which <noun> <predicate>", then?
05:54:58 <Warrigal> I guess here's one: "He rode his bike, which fact I hate."
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05:55:34 <Warrigal> This, then: "He rode his bike, which fact is hated by me."
05:55:37 <oerjan> that's "which <noun> <independent clause>" in your words
05:56:29 <Warrigal> A more natural example: "My maternal grandfather is dead, which fact saddens me greatly."
05:57:18 <oerjan> certainly sounds victorian :D
06:00:55 <Warrigal> "My quantum teleportation reserve has run out, which fact means I'll have to exchange more methanol for it."
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07:51:20 <coppro> so, I discovered today that due to a provincial program, I can borrow from the local University library without having to purchase a separate membership :)
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11:40:28 <ehird> 03:50 pikhq: Or in the case of, say, F#, "Oh, it's Haskell with a worse syntax."
11:40:47 <ehird> and OCaml is just Haskell without laziness and with a different syntax.
11:40:54 <ehird> s/worse syntax/.NET shit/ in the F# line
11:41:51 <ehird> 04:47 Warrigal: The cat ate the fish, despite which event I continued putting fish food in the fish bowl anyway.
11:42:03 <ehird> The cat ate the fish; despite this event I continued putting fish food in the fish bowl anyway.
12:39:48 <ehird> “Maverick Personal Trainer
12:39:48 <ehird> Locks Himself in His Studio
12:39:49 <ehird> for 7 Months… and Creates
12:39:51 <ehird> the World’s First Robot
12:39:53 <ehird> that Automatically Makes
12:39:55 <ehird> Fat Cells Self-Destruct!
12:39:57 <ehird> ↑ I love one-page spam sites.
12:47:22 <ehird> I'm imagining an anthropomorphic, shiny metal robot staring really hard at your fat cells with its laser eyes.
12:58:47 <Ilari> Only if they are programmed to... :-)
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14:42:02 <ehird> "Don't quote me on this, but IIRC, AMD's Sempron processors were faulty Athlon 64s with a few features turned off, and some of the Phenom tri-core processors are quad-cores with a faulty core disabled."
14:42:08 <ehird> (I'm quoting them on that, but)
14:42:14 <ehird> AnMaster: pikhq: YOU HAVE FAULTY PROCESSORS
14:43:05 <ehird> reddit, so yes. :P
14:43:10 <ehird> AnMaster: i've heard it elsewhere though, iirc
14:43:16 <ehird> not about the tri-cores, but it seems logical
14:43:22 <ehird> after all, x3 vs x4 is an odd product line distinction
14:43:30 <ehird> i'd expect x3 vs x6 or x2 vs x4
14:43:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well, iirc intel have done the same. But my sempron is older than even dual core athlon64s
14:43:52 <ehird> "AMD's Sempron processors were faulty Athlon 64s with a few features turned off"
14:43:54 <AnMaster> as in, they weren't even announced back then
14:43:55 <ehird> so not core-related for them
14:44:21 <ehird> AnMaster: i've never heard intel doing it, but both intel and amd just underclock processors that don't run as well at the higher ghz
14:44:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and I think it possibly varied. As far as I know the only major difference is much less cache
14:44:27 <ehird> e.g. a 3.06ghz processor that dies might run at 2.5ghz
14:44:32 <ehird> and so it drops down a segment
14:45:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, a reliable source for Sempron 3300+ (Palermo), /proc/cpuinfo says cpu family: 15, model: 44, stepping: 2
14:46:07 <ehird> obviously they'd tweak those or whatever
15:02:53 <fizzie> I think the tri-core thing has been officially announced somewhere too, and it's a reasonably sensible way to increase yield. Playstation 3 has that 7-"SPU" Cell, while the chip as designed would have 8 of those units, they just disable one.
15:03:15 <fizzie> Don't know anything about Sempron, though.
15:03:35 <ehird> fizzie: why would they disable a cell if it's not defective?
15:03:41 <ehird> it's the same cost, after all, and it's not like it's a retail component
15:04:07 <fizzie> It's a console; they can't really ship 7- and 8-core variants of it.
15:04:43 <ehird> so why not leave all of 'em on
15:05:01 <fizzie> Because then they'd have to throw away all the processors where only 7 of the 8 units work?
15:05:23 <ehird> "Playstation 3 has that 7-"SPU" Cell, while the chip as designed would have 8 of those units, they just disable one." didn't imply any being defective; context did but it was still a bit vague
15:05:48 <fizzie> The point was on that "increase yield" part, really.
15:05:58 <fizzie> I guess I left a bit too much implicit there, but anyway.
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15:06:59 <fizzie> At least AMD can sell the working ones as Phenom X4's, which makes more common-sense.
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15:49:29 * ehird notes that the Finder's connect-to-server dialog could do with a dropdown of available connection protocols instead of an opaque text field.
15:50:14 <ehird> Solution: Enter foo://bar and you'll get;
15:50:31 <ehird> "URLs should begin with afp://, at://, file://, ftp://, http://, https://, nfs://, smb://, cifs:// or vnc://."
15:50:42 <ehird> (I say "solution", I mean "kludge".)
15:51:02 <ehird> I wonder if that's extensible. It'd be nice to add scp://, rsync:// and the like.
15:51:41 <ehird> Well, I know ExpanDrive does something like that and uses MacFUSE.
15:51:43 <nooga> if i made simple grid system, would you join?
15:51:47 <ehird> I wonder if it adds a protocol, though.
15:51:50 <ehird> nooga: A simple what now?
15:52:09 <nooga> parallel computing contraption
15:52:24 <ehird> nooga: what's wrong with @home?
15:52:53 <ehird> I probably wouldn't because I don't like my cooling system to be running full-speed all the time.
15:53:32 <ehird> damn, ExpanDrive uses a separate UI for connecting to the servers
15:56:46 <fizzie> It's been asked in the ADC Q&A thing; as long as that answer is still accurate (not sure if it is) it's not possibel: http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2004/qa1387.html
16:00:30 <ehird> fizzie: "and uses that to load and run the appropriate URLMount plug-in. The structure of a URLMount plug-in is not publicly documented (r. 3502170)."
16:00:36 <ehird> So you can do it, it just might break and Apple will be sad.
16:00:40 <ehird> Which applies to an awful lot of things…
16:01:17 <fizzie> Well, yes. The browsing part is more impossible.
16:01:35 <fizzie> Don't you just love the rdar:// URLs there?
16:01:51 <ehird> rdar:// URLs are funny.
16:01:55 <ehird> Such a niche form of helpfulness.
16:02:12 <ehird> fizzie: I'm sure you could hack something into /Network
16:02:35 <ehird> [ehird:/Network] % sudo touch butt
16:02:36 <ehird> [ehird:/Network] % ls
16:02:40 <ehird> Not shown in Finder, it just scans, but...
16:03:02 <ehird> Anyway, it should be possible, dammit. :P
16:03:27 <ehird> Though, really, manually entering a protocol code?
16:03:32 <ehird> What's up with that dialog, Apple?
16:17:37 <ehird> wow, someone who uses svn by using an sftp drive pointed to a working directory on the folder that the master copy is on
16:17:48 <ehird> i hereby give them the Totally Missing the Point Award 2008
16:17:56 <ehird> (it was in 2008 so there)
16:20:07 <ehird> from the same post
16:20:08 <ehird> I am in a work environment where all webdevelopment is on a shared ubuntu
16:20:09 <ehird> box that most people access through smb (one single user, for the most part)
16:20:10 <ehird> without any real problems.
16:20:12 <ehird> so they have one working directory
16:20:15 <ehird> on a remote server
16:20:20 <ehird> and all connect to it to edit
16:20:26 <ehird> on the same server as the master copy
16:20:33 <ehird> THESE PEOPLE ARE RETARDED
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16:29:06 <nooga> just noticed MacFUSE filesystem project template in my xcode
16:29:10 <nooga> wonder what's that
16:29:52 <ehird> nooga: MacFUSE lets you make custom filesystems stuff in userspace.
16:30:04 <ehird> So you could, e.g.
16:30:20 <ehird> have a wikipedia filesystem that has categories as folders with symlinks to the articles
16:30:30 <ehird> and be able to mount it and modify it and shit without being root
16:31:42 <ehird> nooga: It's, predictably, a port of FUSE, which is for Linux.
16:38:58 * pikhq notes that the FUSE API is rather well-supported these days
16:39:21 <pikhq> Hell, even Hurd supports it -- and Hurd doesn't support anything!
16:39:30 <ehird> Hurd supports your mom.
16:40:20 <GregorR-L> ... the FUSE API is practically a port of the entire concept behind the Hurd to Linux :P
16:40:40 <GregorR-L> The fact that the Hurd supports it is probably due to one 15-line C file.
16:40:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: No, it mercifully omits the fucked up microkernel/daemon and user system. :P
16:41:01 <nooga> hurd was a good idea
16:41:03 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Actually, 50 line header.
16:41:12 <ehird> Microkernels suck.
16:41:26 <nooga> minix 3 might be cool
16:41:31 <ehird> But I don't like her, GregorR-L.
16:41:31 <pikhq> ehird: You're running on one.
16:41:47 <ehird> pikhq: Ahem... OS X's underlying system is severely fucked up enough not to class as much of anything.
16:42:00 <ehird> It's the perfect argument against incest.
16:42:08 <ehird> (Steve Jobs did start NeXT, after all…)
16:42:23 <GregorR-L> OS X has Mach, which you'd THINK would support a microkernel, but instead supports one big fat macrokernel :P
16:42:38 <nooga> when i used linux i had a bit of knowledge how this system works under the hood
16:42:58 <ehird> nooga: Step 1. Get employed by Apple.
16:42:59 <nooga> i don't know anything
16:43:06 <ehird> Step 2. Stop using OS X because the underpinnings are so horrific.
16:43:35 <pikhq> Horrific is the wrong word.
16:43:57 <pikhq> (WHY IS THERE XML IN MY INIT‽ WHY‽)
16:44:12 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, plist.
16:44:14 <GregorR-L> <XML> in ur init, initin ur system </XML>
16:44:16 <ehird> Plists used to use a plaintext format.
16:44:21 <ehird> It's stupid that they use XML now, but it's abstracted away.
16:44:28 <ehird> (The plaintext format was like JSON.)
16:44:35 <nooga> but i use plists that are visible as xml
16:44:48 <pikhq> Needs more plain text.
16:44:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: Indeed; they're not *sane* XML.
16:44:55 <ehird> Instead of <foo bar="baz">...</foo>, it's
16:45:11 <ehird> <dict><key>bar</key><string>baz</string></dict>
16:45:28 <ehird> It was a monumental screwup, changing to XML, but oh well
16:45:29 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, by the time you get to the .framework level in OS X, things start to level out sanely.
16:45:35 <ehird> Underneath that... Not so much.
16:46:31 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, the low-level frameworks are a bit freaky.
16:46:35 <ehird> But the ones you actually deal with? Yum.
16:46:38 <ehird> I'll have me some more of that.
16:46:48 <ehird> …which contributes to the top-level system being sane.
16:47:35 <pikhq> Making the thing as a whole a lot better than, say, Windows NT.
16:47:45 <ehird> I think Windows NT might be inverted.
16:47:48 <pikhq> You got userspace code in my kernel! You got kernel code in my userspace!
16:47:52 <ehird> I haven't heard much about the underlying NT kernel being insane.
16:48:02 <ehird> Just everything above it, which pokes its tendrils downwards into the kernel, molesting it.
16:48:08 <pikhq> There's only a few hacks in the NT kernel.
16:48:30 <pikhq> And that's because "YAY! GUI IN KERNEL!"
16:48:37 <ehird> Wait, the GUI is in the KERNEL?
16:48:53 <pikhq> Yes, but not for design reasons.
16:49:06 <pikhq> It's for "performance" reasons.
16:49:26 <ehird> ...I mean, I'm a huge proponent of operating system-provided garbage collector, GUI, and so on - huge - but… if you're gonna have a kernel (I suggest you don't…)… putting a fucking GUI in it?!
16:51:17 <ehird> [["Concepts" removed from C++0x]]
16:51:20 <ehird> I hope they removed the concept of existing.
16:52:12 <pikhq> What did you know of "Concepts" in C++0x?
16:52:37 <pikhq> And are you aware that they ought to be called "Typeclasses"?
16:53:01 <ehird> What I said was a joke, and I don't think they were that.
16:53:03 <ehird> They're implicit typeclasses.
16:53:14 <ehird> They're more like OCaml's object type.
16:53:44 <pikhq> Oh, thought they were explicit typeclasses.
16:53:58 <ehird> pikhq: It's just a constraint that a type must have some given methods.
16:54:24 <pikhq> Needs more typeclasses.
16:54:44 <ehird> It's actually useful.
16:54:57 <ehird> Methinks you're going a bit heavy on the Haskell zealotry :P
16:55:02 <ehird> I mean, it makes sense, pikhq
16:55:16 <ehird> type MyObject = { meth1 :: ..., meth2 :: ... }
16:55:19 <ehird> which is compatible with
16:55:33 <ehird> type MyObjectTwoElectricBoogaloo = { meth1 :: ..., meth2 :: ..., meth3 :: ... }
16:55:35 <ehird> then you can infer e.g.
16:55:42 <ehird> foo x = x>>butt + x>>butt2
16:55:55 <ehird> foo :: (Num a) => { butt :: a, butt2 :: a } -> a
16:56:04 <pikhq> I was intentionally going a bit heavy on the Haskell zealotry.
16:57:36 <ehird> "How will C++0x programming and design look like without Concepts? Brace yourself for many more years of indecipherable template compilation errors. Additionally, type traits will become a hot commodity once again. Presently, type traits are one of the very few proven techniques for enforcing compile-time constraints on templates. Pedagogically, C++ will be a tad easier to teach."
16:57:42 <ehird> C++0x just got even less appealing!
16:58:00 <ehird> No way it'll be out in '0x.
16:58:02 <pikhq> Man, that was one of the primary good things *about* C++1x.
16:58:12 <ehird> There's no more naughties to go, heh.
16:58:20 <pikhq> It's like, one of the few features C++ always needed.
16:58:57 <pikhq> Well, I mean, if you're going with template polymorphism, you might as well make it proper polymorphism.
16:59:13 <ehird> Concepts are the most general way of doing the basic idea.
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17:02:01 <ehird> I should zap my PRAM just for the fake nostalgia.
17:02:26 * ehird waits for someone to ask what zapping PRAM is.
17:02:37 <pikhq> What's even more annoying: concepts were the only major C++0x feature that were completely implemented.
17:02:39 <ehird> Why that's easy; it's the solution to ALL Mac woes!
17:02:57 <ehird> Got a problem? Just zap your PRAM! Apple have truly simplified the problem-solving cycle.
17:03:36 <pikhq> GCC 4.4 has concepts.
17:03:50 <pikhq> I guess GCC will just have to make that a GNUism.
17:20:03 <ehird> I have so many windows open that Exposé is becoming quite impractical.
17:20:08 <ehird> I never close things...
17:30:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: that's like doing manual memory deallocation.
17:30:54 <ehird> i have to figure out what i don't need, go into that window, close it, etc.
17:31:00 <ehird> i'd much rather have a window garbage collector.
17:31:04 <GregorR-L> I want a GC for my window manager.
17:31:23 <ehird> except instead of destroying the windows it puts them out of the way somewhere, i'm not sure i'd like it to start randomly closing things :D
17:32:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: with all the time you idled before saying 'Might I recommend ..." your IRC client might have quit due to the GC
17:32:18 <ehird> so on second thoughts
17:32:20 <ehird> i fully support this idea!
17:32:51 <ehird> i'm sorry GregorR-L
17:32:54 <ehird> i'm just relaying what YOUR MOM said
17:32:57 <ehird> THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!
17:33:06 <ehird> *2x Combo! Extra points!*
17:33:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: Looks like there's something wrong with your face...
17:33:26 <ehird> ...oh wait, it ALWAYS looks that bad!
17:33:28 <GregorR-L> I don't think I know any sadder smileys :P
17:33:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's what SHE said!
17:43:01 <GregorR-L> I'm glad mplayer supports caching when reading from the filesystem.
17:43:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: You know that every player ever does that/
17:44:28 <pikhq> I'm glad that mplayer supports smb directly.
17:45:38 <GregorR-L> ehird: Do they? I wouldn't know where to look in a GUI *shrugs*
17:45:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: What does that second sentence mean?
17:46:12 <GregorR-L> It means that if I wanted to enable caching of files on the "local" filesystem in a GUI, I wouldn't know where to look.
17:46:28 <GregorR-L> Preferences->Advanced->Ultra-advanced->Stuff most people shouldn't ever touch->Cache stuff that shouldn't need to be cached
17:47:01 <pikhq> Y'know that most filesystems directly support caching, right?
17:47:12 <GregorR-L> (Also, s/cache/buffer/ for most players *shrugs*)
17:47:41 <pikhq> I presume you mean buffering -- which is done by default on modern OSes and most players do by default anyways.
17:47:50 <ehird> Yeah, GregorR-L... it's automatic.
17:47:53 <pikhq> There's many things to like about mplayer -- that's not one of them. :P
17:48:13 <ehird> If you mean "can skip backwards without re-reading" or something, which fits "caching" slightly better, then... all players do that, too.
17:50:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, mplayer isn't necessarily command line. Last I checked it had a rather appealing, simple GTK GUI.
17:50:57 <ehird> Although it separated the controls from the video window for some inexplicable reason.
17:51:07 <ehird> (I mean, seriously; what's the point of that?)
17:51:34 <ehird> http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/_media/media/gmplayer.png?cache=cache&w=900&h=531 ;; okay, WTF is up with that file picker?
17:51:39 <ehird> I take it back; it sucks.
17:52:25 <GregorR-L> Perhaps because it's not buffering? Seems probable!
17:52:40 <GregorR-L> (Or, the buffer is ludicrously small)
17:52:53 <ehird> pikhq: Can you inform GregorR-L that he thinks that one of the most popular, polished Linux media players doesn't buffer?
17:52:57 <ehird> Or doesn't buffer enough?
17:53:08 <GregorR-L> Not buffering FROM THE LOCAL FILESYSTEM
17:53:23 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it is going over sshfs. He may have done a silly 8G buffer or some such. :P
17:53:33 <ehird> 8G is a weird smiley.
17:53:52 <ehird> Unhappy glasses-man. He's unhappy because part of his mouth disappeared.
17:53:52 <GregorR-L> Good lawd, it should not be skipping like this, OK. Maybe it's buffering 1K, but it's not usefully buffering.
17:54:11 <GregorR-L> Maybe because it would be ridiculous to buffer when as far as you know it's a local file. Not that I have a clue how to convince it otherwise.
17:54:37 <pikhq> ... Ridiculous to buffer on a local file? Really?
17:54:54 <pikhq> Hard drives are fecking slow.
17:54:59 <GregorR-L> Even the world's slowest, most unreliable hard disk is faster than a bloody MP3.
17:55:21 * pikhq brings out the original
17:55:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: QuickTime certainly buffers local files, at least.
17:56:05 <ehird> I can tell because the progress bar is blank for a split second before it fills in when you open a track.
17:56:08 <pikhq> As does mplayer; defaults to a 1MB buffer, IIRC.
17:56:13 <ehird> Blankness means unloaded, filled means loaded for networked files.
17:56:22 <ehird> So it's doing the same for local files, too.
18:20:53 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:58:21 * SimonRC listens to apollo (live broadcast): http://wechoosethemoon.org/
19:00:51 <GregorR-L> Man, listen to all that sound in space.
19:01:10 <SimonRC> turn the "background audio" down as far as it will go
19:08:46 <ehird> yeah, what GregorR-L said about noise :D
19:09:05 <ehird> SimonRC: this isn't looking very live
19:09:33 <SimonRC> well, exactly 40 years late
19:09:45 <ehird> oh it's the actual apollo broadcasty thing?
19:10:00 <SimonRC> you missed re-gaining contact, but a burn is about to start
19:10:07 <ehird> unfortunately i can't hear properly
19:10:33 <ehird> also, it looks like twitter on the right hand side
19:10:38 <ehird> i want to kill whoever made it look like tw—
19:10:40 <ehird> oh god it's twitter
19:10:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: no, it's the radio distortion
19:11:37 <SimonRC> I don't know how anyone understands it
19:11:56 <ehird> SimonRC: very good pattern recognition facilities?
19:12:02 <ehird> I can't listen to the radio, even on good quality
19:12:21 <ehird> I think I need to see the mouth moving to understand fast speech
19:12:22 <SimonRC> fiddle with your audio ballence settings
19:13:46 <ehird> ↑ what was just said
19:14:04 <SimonRC> oops, that made my sound go away
19:14:18 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:14:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: ha, I found a link to extra-www on the interwebs
19:14:58 <ehird> Hey, the audio stream got clearer.
19:15:04 <ehird> SimonRC: http://www.www.extra-www.org/
19:15:20 <SimonRC> fuck I did just kill my sound
19:15:34 <ehird> I am a proud supporter.* (note: * support is determined by inventing the ranking system rather than, say, putting it into place)
19:16:26 * GregorR-L actually does the no-www thing on all his sites :P
19:16:34 <GregorR-L> Except for extra-www.org of course.
19:17:49 <GregorR-L> http://www.yourwebsitevalue.com/details/e/x/t/extra-www_org.html // extra-www.org is worth $21 wooh :P
19:19:26 <ehird> Apparently, ted.com is just worth $711,567; whereas livejournal is worth $55,934,565.
19:19:31 <SimonRC> I think I missed the start of the burn
19:19:31 <ehird> Methinks ted.com is rather more... worthful.
19:19:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: yourwebsitevalue.com is worth $50,481, apparently.
19:20:15 <GregorR-L> It would be funny to offer to buy it at that price, referencing ... itself :P
19:20:38 <GregorR-L> "I'm readin' you loud and scratchy" lawl
19:20:39 <ehird> The separation animation when you go to wechoosethemoon.org is a bit too... easy.
19:20:57 <ehird> Stretch...and...pfft. We're separated in a few seconds.
19:21:06 <ehird> I got lock on a great hadie, point two miles/
19:21:15 <SimonRC> guesses requested for what my sound demon is called
19:21:26 <ehird> SimonRC: alsa. oss.
19:21:38 <ehird> one of the millions of others
19:22:03 <ehird> Houston we have a fear schematic copy over.
19:22:23 <ehird> Four zero, zero zero, zero zero, zero zero SPACECRAFT SPACECRAFT
19:22:36 <ehird> A zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero SPACECRAFT SPACECRAFT
19:23:26 <ehird> What's that about slaughterhouse five in the bottomright?
19:23:54 <GregorR-L> ehird: It was listing the most popular books at that time.
19:24:00 <GregorR-L> Just trying to get you in the spirit of 1969
19:24:03 <ehird> How utterly pointless. :P
19:24:28 <GregorR-L> So's your face though, so don't blame it *shrugs*
19:24:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: you know, I think the pulsating vector graphic below the shoutcast radio sign in flashy letters, the high-resolution 3d graphics, and just about everything else about the site...
19:24:39 -!- fungebob has joined.
19:24:41 <ehird> kinda dispels any 1969 illusions :D
19:24:48 <ehird> fungebob: I assume you like Funge.
19:25:01 <ehird> "We got some unexplained road activity."
19:25:06 <ehird> I didn't know there were roads in space!
19:25:15 <ehird> fungebob: I'm practically psychic. You been here before?
19:25:33 <GregorR-L> Approximately all the fekking time :P
19:25:59 <fungebob> in bursts, about every other year
19:26:06 <ehird> Well me has a short memory.
19:26:21 <ehird> (The only-being-here-since-2007 might have something to do with it too.)
19:26:21 <pikhq> It's depressing that, 40 years after man walked on the moon, we are currently incapable of sending a man to the moon.
19:26:24 <ehird> But true, I forget about the idlers.
19:26:28 <ehird> They don't really exist.
19:26:37 <ehird> pikhq: Incapable? No, there's just not a budget allocated to it.
19:26:41 <fungebob> yeah. im something of a chronic idler.
19:27:16 <GregorR-L> As it turns out, at this point going to the moon would be more "hey look how cool we are" than "we're accomplishing some scientific knowledge", which is pointless :P
19:27:35 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I don't want us to merely go to the moon.
19:27:48 <pikhq> I want the nation of Luna.
19:27:50 <GregorR-L> <pikhq> I want us to ... BLOW UP THE MOON! MUAHAHAHAHA
19:27:57 <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless.
19:28:05 <ehird> Atmosphere. Gravity. Resources.
19:28:21 <GregorR-L> Also, if the Earth went kapoot, the moon would be pretty screwed regardless.
19:28:24 <ehird> It would be the most pointless thing the human race could possibly do apart from watching NASCAR.
19:28:35 <pikhq> ehird: I also want practical fusion.
19:28:42 <ehird> pikhq: Best served chilled, eh?
19:28:44 <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn
19:28:51 <pikhq> Which would make man on the moon quite reasonable.
19:28:53 <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
19:29:03 <pikhq> (the moon has a decent amount of Hydrogen-3)
19:29:18 <GregorR-L> `addquote <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
19:29:19 <HackEgo> 43|<ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
19:29:23 <ehird> pikhq: All we need is "Instant Atmosphere, Just Add Planet" and "Gravitron Generator 3000 Ultra+ Extra"
19:29:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: Low gravity porn is essentially the progenitor of all man's advancement.
19:30:14 <pikhq> Who needs high gravity, and you can have a completely sealed-in nation with oxygen.
19:30:20 <pikhq> It would just suck if it got into war with anyone.
19:30:54 <ehird> What about a... Jupitan (?!) colony?
19:30:54 <pikhq> (though, there was this trick you could do with launching large amounts of mass into the nearby gravity well...)
19:30:59 <ehird> That would be insanely hard and impractical to do.
19:31:14 <ehird> We could go surfing on the great red spot, except we couldn't.
19:31:20 <pikhq> Let's start by getting man in the general vicinity of Jupiter.
19:31:21 <ehird> Slight issue of impossibility there
19:31:29 <GregorR-L> pikhq: We're within a solar system ;)
19:31:31 <ehird> pikhq: Once we're there we might as well get set up :-P
19:31:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makemake_(dwarf_planet)
19:31:39 <ehird> Let's go to Makemake.
19:31:43 <ehird> I haven't heard of it before and ist name is cute.
19:31:47 <pikhq> ehird: The moons would be a bit more practical for settlement.
19:32:02 <ehird> pikhq: Mars would be the most practical, I think
19:32:08 <SimonRC> I saw recently a great argument against colonising other planets in case of asteroid strike...
19:32:17 <pikhq> ehird: I also want the moon!
19:32:18 <ehird> Mercury might be, but... bit hot there, I imagine.
19:32:26 <ehird> Mars would be quite easy compared to the others.
19:32:32 <SimonRC> even after an asteroid strike,. the Earth might still be more habitable than those other planets
19:32:33 <pikhq> Mars is also a good idea.
19:32:36 <ehird> You know; the ones that have obstacles like "is agiant ball of gas".
19:32:50 <GregorR-L> If we can add an atmosphere to Mars, surely we can unfuckup the atmosphere of Venus.
19:32:58 <pikhq> Mars is a bit harder to ship stuff to than the moon, but the environment is certainly easier to work with.
19:33:09 <pikhq> Namely, you already have water there.
19:33:43 <ehird> 186 K227 K268 K[4]
19:33:44 <SimonRC> ordinary air is a lifting gas on Venus, so we could supposedly make airship colonies
19:33:50 <ehird> But warm enough to make warm.
19:34:16 <pikhq> SimonRC: I LOVE THAT IDEA
19:34:38 <ehird> Mercury is really hot.
19:34:53 <ehird> well actually, the mean isn't that hot
19:35:03 <ehird> 700 K, though... :-)
19:35:17 <pikhq> It's close to the sun and doesn't afraid of anything.
19:35:22 <GregorR-L> But you can surf on the oceans of molten lead
19:35:26 <ehird> SimonRC: Venus has the same problem as mercury, except worse.
19:35:31 <SimonRC> oops, I didn't need to reboot, I just needed to slide one slider
19:35:32 <ehird> The mean surface temp i 461 C.
19:35:44 <ehird> Actually, I wonder how they define surface.
19:35:48 <SimonRC> high in the atmosphere what the proposal I heard
19:35:58 <ehird> Venus is a terrestrial planet?
19:36:04 <ehird> I seriously didn't know that.
19:36:14 <ehird> Wow. I'm, retarded.
19:36:15 <GregorR-L> Venus is Earth with fucked up greenhouse effects.
19:36:16 <pikhq> It merely has a fucking thick atmosphere.
19:36:27 <ehird> pikhq: It looks so gassy.
19:36:30 <SimonRC> and no tectonic activity, which may be related
19:36:33 <pikhq> GregorR-L: And volcanos.
19:36:34 <ehird> (Planets fart a lot. BADUM TISH)
19:36:41 <ehird> Anyway, yeah, Venus is just tooooo hot.
19:37:04 <GregorR-L> But it's not hot due to sun proximity, it's just hot due to atmosphere. That's probably more of a solvable problem. Or not :)
19:37:11 <GregorR-L> And yeah, like SimonRC said, who needs the surface?
19:37:54 <ehird> Still, Mars would be the easiest.
19:38:01 <SimonRC> I think the loud clicks are the astronauts flicking switches
19:38:08 <SimonRC> or ratehr, the resulting sparks
19:38:17 <pikhq> Venus also has SULFURIC ACID RAIN
19:38:46 <ehird> Mars is warm enough that we could build a warming dome, it has water and had life ...
19:38:48 <GregorR-L> pikhq: So do we, just less of it :P
19:39:03 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Its rain *is* sulfuric acid.
19:39:06 <ehird> And its atmosphere isn't that bad, is it?
19:39:15 <pikhq> The clouds are made of sulfuric acid droplets.
19:39:15 <GregorR-L> ehird: It's atmosphere isn't that existent.
19:39:16 <ehird> So, I definitely think Mars would be the easiest thing in our solar system to make habitable.
19:39:19 <pikhq> IT HAS A SULFURIC ACID CYCLE.
19:39:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: Exactly.
19:39:28 <ehird> That's better than Venus.
19:39:41 <GregorR-L> Idonno, is it? Shipping ridiculous amounts of oxygen to another planet?
19:39:50 <SimonRC> you just need some Boeing air-miners ;-)
19:40:05 <ehird> I mean, Mars is basically jumbo-sized Luna with water + precedent of life.
19:40:17 <pikhq> All you need to get some oxygen is a heater, a battery, and a couple of electrodes.
19:40:22 <ehird> You're not gonna find a planet more perfect than earth, so you gotta do with what you got. :)
19:40:28 <pikhq> (you may also want somewhere to store the resulting hydrogen)
19:40:43 <ehird> I wonder what the theoretical range of wireless charging is.
19:40:53 <ehird> Could we build ginormous charging satellites and use them on both Earth and Mars? :-D
19:40:58 <pikhq> ehird: Range of light.
19:41:07 <pikhq> You can use microwaves to transmit power.
19:41:17 <SimonRC> how tightly can one focus a laser?
19:41:29 <ehird> pikhq: Surely you have to choose between safety or enough power to do anything in the case of microwaves, though.
19:41:46 <ehird> So, discounting microwaves. :P
19:41:51 <GregorR-L> Eh, just use gamma radiation instead.
19:41:58 <SimonRC> well, we could adapt some launching lasers to transmit power
19:42:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: The human race loooves you.
19:42:14 <pikhq> An absurd amount of solar cells.
19:42:23 <ehird> The most important thing is...
19:42:34 <ehird> Can we get good latency to Earth's internet satellites from Mars? :-)
19:42:50 <pikhq> ehird: Half an hour latency, unless you have an ansible.
19:42:59 <ehird> Half an hour is kinda bad.
19:43:00 <GregorR-L> I've wanted to make a layer-3 proxy that just sits on packets for $AMOUNT_OF_TIME_TO_CHOSEN_PLANET
19:43:03 <SimonRC> I wonder what the maximum safe acceleration is when one is submersed in a breathable liquid
19:43:08 <GregorR-L> So we could see how effed up Intarwebs would be.
19:43:14 <ehird> "In an historic move, Microsoft Monday submitted driver source code for inclusion in the Linux kernel under a GPLv2 license."
19:43:14 <pikhq> It's about 30 lightminutes away. So.
19:43:27 <ehird> pikhq: Erm, really?
19:43:29 <GregorR-L> ehird: It's a module that helps only them.
19:43:29 <pikhq> ehird: It's for the Windows virtualisation ABI.
19:43:32 <ehird> Isn't earth 8 lightminutes away from the su—
19:43:33 <SimonRC> ordinary internet has a TLL max of 255 sec
19:43:35 <pikhq> Which Linux already had partial support for.
19:43:49 <ehird> The distance between Sun<->Earth is smaller than the distance between Earth<->Mars?
19:43:51 <ehird> I didn't know that
19:44:03 * GregorR-L explains the concept of orbit to ehird :P
19:44:13 <ehird> Shut up, GregorR-L. I just thought it was closer to us. :P
19:44:22 <SimonRC> the orbits are roughly an exponential pattern
19:44:32 <GregorR-L> This is why my proxy would be schweet.
19:44:35 <pikhq> ehird: Double the earth-to-mars distance, and add a few more lightminutes.
19:44:38 <ehird> Guys, I figured out how to get an internet connection on Mars.
19:44:40 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Kirks_Soap_Yerkes_Mars.jpg
19:44:52 <pikhq> Erm. Earth-to-sun.
19:44:54 <ehird> Build a gigantic cable that at its widest point is as wide as mars.
19:44:56 <ehird> Attach it to mars.
19:45:02 <ehird> Optionally, drive lorries along it.
19:45:06 <SimonRC> well NASA are working on an "interplanetary internet"
19:45:17 <ehird> Thank you, Mr Yerke.
19:45:18 <fungebob> we could just use it for off-site backups
19:45:30 <SimonRC> there is so much stuff on and around mars that it is worth creating a satellite specialised to high-power comms
19:45:32 <pikhq> SimonRC: Yes; current Martian probes use IP for transmission.
19:45:39 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, but... slowly...
19:45:59 <pikhq> The orbiter is a router, and the landers talk to it.
19:46:02 <ehird> Shame that the theoretical maximum is 30 minutes.
19:46:12 <ehird> Any way around it?
19:46:21 <pikhq> And there's satellites in Earth orbit that talk to the orbiter.
19:46:22 <ehird> I mean internet infrastructure
19:46:37 <pikhq> ehird: Mirror the World Wide Web on Mars.
19:46:49 <ehird> pikhq: that doesn't let you chat to people on earth :P
19:46:54 <ehird> But I guess that's just not gonna be feasible.
19:47:00 <ehird> And that's a damn shame; so much for globalization.
19:47:19 <ehird> pikhq: Sort of impossible.
19:47:28 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon
19:47:32 <SimonRC> pikhq: <cough>lorentz symmetry</cough>
19:47:40 <ehird> But tachyons are weird; it could be that Earth is sending us the packets we sent, or something.
19:47:48 <pikhq> <cough>stable wormhole</cough>
19:48:05 <ehird> Yeah, we'll just put a wormhole in orbit around mars.
19:48:19 <pikhq> Well, it's more practical than using one for transmission, at least.
19:48:32 <SimonRC> in soviet space-time, mars orbit wormhole
19:48:41 <pikhq> Since you don't need the thing to not tear *people* apart. ;)
19:48:44 <SimonRC> seriously, the theoretical "mass" is just too big
19:48:50 <pikhq> Erm. Transportation.
19:48:54 <ehird> 19:48 SimonRC: seriously, the theoretical "mass" is just too big
19:49:15 <SimonRC> I thought the mass for even a slightly usable wormhole was larger than the sun
19:49:21 <SimonRC> or was that for matter transmittion?
19:49:22 <ehird> <wechoosethemoon.org> Crackle crackle crackle crackle crackle crackle crackle crackle crackle.
19:49:42 * ehird gives up on wechoosethemoon.org; too boring atm.
19:50:20 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Worm3.jpg ← Throat, ey?
19:50:23 <ehird> Wormhole porn anyone?
19:50:47 <SimonRC> ehird: well, certain sorts of porn would be helped by it
19:51:38 <ehird> SimonRC: i'm trying to figure out what you mean.
19:53:16 <ehird> fungebob: Portal porn; Portal portals are wormholes.
19:53:25 <fungebob> i have a wormhole porn limerick
19:53:28 <ehird> "Unfortunately it is impossible for a traveller to pass through the wormhole from one Universe into the other. A traveller can pass through a horizon only in one direction, indicated by the yellow arrows. First, the traveller must wait until the two white holes have merged, and their horizons met. The traveller may then enter through one horizon. But having entered, the traveller cannot exit, either through that horizon or through the horizon on the othe
19:53:31 <ehird> r side. The fate of the traveller who ventures in is to die at the singularity which forms from the collapse of the wormhole."
19:53:44 <ehird> // somehow I don't think said traveller would actually experience this
19:54:15 <fungebob> "What I'd love is a wormhole in space
19:54:32 <SimonRC> ah, of course, your could literally fuck yourself
19:54:37 <fungebob> and the other's attached to my face."
19:54:54 <ehird> SimonRC: you couldn't do penetrative intercourse without moving the wormhole
19:55:03 <ehird> it disturbs me that I can reason this
19:55:42 <SimonRC> as a prerequisite or as a consequence?
19:57:16 <ehird> SimonRC: when you moved your penor forwards, your butt would move forwards too
19:57:47 <pikhq> ehird: This is why you'd move the wormhole.
19:57:48 <ehird> It's so obvious now!
19:57:53 <fungebob> but what if the wormhole had a half-twist?
19:57:55 <ehird> pikhq: That hurts my brain, though
19:58:19 <SimonRC> the solution to that is to use it for time travel instead, and have sex with a shifted version of yourself
19:58:41 <ehird> SimonRC: shaky. depends on how consciousness works.
19:58:53 <ehird> it's entirely possible you'd end up as one mind with two bodies and brains
19:59:04 <ehird> well, FSVO entirely possible
19:59:20 <SimonRC> yeah, in a dualist universe
20:00:07 <pikhq> CARTESIAN DUALISM FTW
20:00:53 <ehird> <Cartesian dualism> Hurf durf, I'm an exception to the normal laws of physics cuz im speshul
20:01:20 <SimonRC> why are they out of contact now?
20:01:34 <ehird> Who? The moon guys?
20:02:33 <ehird> lol@bottomright bit about the loch ness monster
20:03:22 <ehird> "Because Descartes' was such a difficult theory to defend, some of his disciples, such as Arnold Geulincx and Nicholas Malebranche, proposed a different explanation: That all mind-body interactions required the direct intervention of God."
20:04:14 <ehird> Anyway, it's not surprising that a Christian would be a dualist.
20:04:20 <SimonRC> "I'll use Cartesian Dualism to seperate my mind from my body!" (+735 mindless damage) http://dresdencodak.com/2006/12/03/dungeons-and-discourse/
20:04:38 <pikhq> ... That's replacing an arbitrary, indefensible theory that is at least interesting to think about with... Sheer stupidity.
20:04:40 <ehird> It's even harder to justify as a monist/.
20:04:42 <Pthing> describing dualism as "i am an exception to the laws of physics" is a terrible caricature
20:05:01 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, you don't really think Cartesian dualism is true.
20:05:08 <ehird> Pthing: it's called an irc oneliner
20:05:14 <ehird> they generally aren't accurate
20:05:18 <pikhq> "Maybe mind and body are seperate." to "Mind and body are seperate and GOD MAKES THEM TALK TO EACH OTHER! LAWLS!"
20:05:33 <Pthing> why's that any more stupid
20:06:28 <pikhq> They claim that god being involved makes it easier to defend.
20:06:56 <Pthing> you don't have to call it god, they just did back then
20:07:27 <pikhq> It just seems like a stupid philosophical debate.
20:07:53 <Pthing> but it's not as stupid as just accepting any position blindly
20:08:08 <pikhq> "Mind and body are seperate!" "What does this imply?" "I... don't know."
20:08:35 <ehird> (I wonder how you DO justify christianity as a monist.)
20:09:08 <SimonRC> maybe the mind is copied out when you die?
20:09:14 <pikhq> ehird: With great difficulty.
20:09:23 <ehird> SimonRC: define death
20:09:30 <ehird> information-theoretic death? by definition you can't recover it then
20:09:40 <ehird> anything before that? revival is theoretically possible
20:09:48 <Pthing> it's not really much harder than with dualism, surely
20:09:54 <ehird> pikhq: but that's not the point, amirite
20:09:56 <Pthing> neutral monism makes it trivial
20:10:27 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, that's what y'all say. :P
20:10:53 <Pthing> has been historically popular
20:14:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:23:35 <SimonRC> I think the lunar orbit diagram is fucked up
20:23:49 <SimonRC> it doesn't show the module as being behind the Moon
20:27:12 <SimonRC> 14th revolution? yeah the diagram is wrong
20:27:44 * ehird looks at the intro sequence again; determines that there is in fact a dark side of the moon
20:27:51 <ehird> matter of fact half of it's light.
20:28:14 <ehird> Hey, they mentioned MIT.
20:28:34 <SimonRC> the far side of the moon is made of darker rock than the near side mostly
20:30:01 <ehird> I like to think that the nm distance is actually nanometers.
20:31:37 <SimonRC> nautical miles: "Lets make up some things that are similar to real miles but slightly different enough that they aren't interchangeable, and give the excuse that they correspond to latitue change at the equator"
20:31:48 <ehird> SimonRC: well, they just took the mean of a sea mile
20:31:55 <ehird> so they actually improved on the sea mile
20:32:00 <ehird> as opposed to having it fuckin' vary
20:32:03 <SimonRC> right, see if there is any food in this building, 'coz I ain't leaving
20:32:21 <ehird> does nautical mile pre- or post-date regular miles anyway?
20:39:06 <ehird> No communication, I guess.
20:39:55 <SimonRC> so why does it come and go?
20:40:06 <SimonRC> also, had they not invented FM by this point?
20:40:28 <ehird> SimonRC: I guess they got tired of saying "Hey... we're going to the fucking moon." "Heyup, tru dat." "The moon. Like, us, on the moon." "You got it."
20:40:43 <ehird> Also, maybe FM's latency was too high or something (note: I'm an idiot)
20:40:59 <pikhq> ehird: FM is significantly less tolerant of interferance.
20:41:11 <ehird> pikhq: ITYM "SimonRC:"
20:41:23 <pikhq> Also, FM is harder to do.
20:42:03 <SimonRC> so why is FM clearer on my radio?
20:42:08 <pikhq> You can just about do AM with a tin can and some string. :P
20:42:38 <pikhq> SimonRC: Because its transmission mode makes interference less noticable.
20:44:33 <ehird> This is Apollo control.
20:45:32 <ehird> Around 9.5 miles from the Moon.
20:46:04 * SimonRC wonders what all those people in the control room do
20:46:59 <ehird> SimonRC: Check shit doesn't blow up, I'd gues.
20:48:52 <ehird> This needs subtitles.
20:49:00 <SimonRC> oh, yeah, the powered descent is behind the moon (again)
20:49:17 <ehird> SimonRC: i don't get what you mean by that
20:49:19 <SimonRC> I'm sure the NASA website has full transcripts somewhere
20:49:35 <ehird> also, what's the point of this if it's already available?
20:49:43 <ehird> well i guess just the audio could be newly released
20:49:53 <SimonRC> ehird: the lunar module has to go behind the moon one more time before landing
20:49:57 <GregorR-L> ehird: We're all getting to listen to it simultaneously?
20:50:06 <SimonRC> exactly 40 years after it happened
20:50:17 <ehird> To the planck time?
20:50:30 <ehird> 20:49 SimonRC: ehird: the lunar module has to go behind the moon one more time before landing
20:50:35 <ehird> i don't understand what you're trying to say
20:50:53 <SimonRC> they are going round the moon, right?
20:51:01 <SimonRC> and they have to slow down to land
20:51:14 <SimonRC> and they can't actually slow that quickly
20:51:24 <ehird> SimonRC: ok... and?
20:51:27 <ehird> what are you trying to say
20:51:53 <SimonRC> they are going to go round behind the moon once more before they actually land
20:52:08 <ehird> ok... and why do you find this pertinent enough to mention? :P
20:52:26 <ehird> It's a simple question
20:52:44 <SimonRC> the diagram in the lower right doesn't show it
20:53:04 <pikhq> Today is also my grandmother's birthday.
20:53:06 <ehird> well it is just a progress bar with a vague indicator
20:53:06 <SimonRC> oh, waitamo, it does actually
20:55:17 <GregorR-L> "An altitude of 12.9 nautical miles" :P
20:55:23 <GregorR-L> 12.9 miles into the OCEAN OF SPACE
20:55:56 <ehird> SimonRC: ah, it does.
20:56:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: Spacean.
20:59:24 <SimonRC> dude, like your rada and eyes disagree by 6%
21:00:06 <SimonRC> their visual check said 5300nm and their radar said 50000nm
21:00:38 <ehird> SimonRC: it's at ft in the Distance from Moon thing
21:00:51 <ehird> also 50000 is obviously averaged
21:00:55 <ehird> it hasn't changed for ages
21:01:25 <SimonRC> BTW, from what they said, the noise is because their HG antenna isn't pointing quite the right way
21:01:41 <ehird> All radio is noisy :P
21:02:19 <SimonRC> the aidio is 30s off from the countdown
21:02:26 <ehird> SimonRC: the KRRRRRRRT you mean?
21:02:43 <ehird> also, 30s — maybe uhh
21:02:49 <ehird> earth rotation offset? wait, leap years
21:03:38 <SimonRC> unless the even times are only to the nearest minute
21:04:13 <ehird> and that seems likely
21:04:13 <SimonRC> that would make sense given that it is counting down to exactly 102:33:00
21:06:12 <ehird> hoston we got lost
21:06:17 <ehird> time to go air freedom
21:06:24 <ehird> i am good hearing person
21:06:33 <ehird> SimonRC: any complications launching the module thingy?
21:06:48 <ehird> hmm new twitter stuff from refreshing
21:06:51 <ehird> it went black before that
21:07:12 <ehird> SimonRC: if you change view you can see a "UNITED STATES" sticker on it
21:07:16 <ehird> if lost, please return to...
21:08:10 <ehird> SimonRC: we're now <space>220249 nm from the moon
21:08:22 <ehird> i guess it just shot off into space huh
21:08:46 <ehird> wonder if they'll fix it
21:08:55 <ehird> SimonRC: wow that's noisy
21:09:27 <GregorR-L> Yup, can't understand any of this :P
21:09:58 <ehird> i'm just absorbing it as ambience
21:10:02 <ehird> since i have no hope of hearing what they say
21:10:20 <SimonRC> eveidentally there is a separate data channel
21:10:41 <SimonRC> they were referring to "data dropouts"
21:10:57 <SimonRC> or maybe "dating dropouots" ;-)
21:11:39 <ehird> SimonRC: sounds like 6125 here
21:11:44 <ehird> sixteen sixty eight
21:12:26 <ehird> Yes, 1202 FACTORIAL.
21:12:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:13:31 <SimonRC> maybe they are going to land in a few moments
21:13:44 <ehird> look at the diagram
21:13:49 <ehird> one more half revolution
21:13:53 <ehird> then they'll dig into the moon
21:14:15 <ehird> that's an awesome idea, they should have done that
21:14:20 <GregorR-L> They're actually digging quite a bit THROUGH the moon.
21:14:38 <GregorR-L> For as deep as they end up, they've dug some five times more than they needed to.
21:14:51 <ehird> If you take the previous point as being connected to it by an invisible line, they'll dig all the way through.
21:15:00 <ehird> Then do the route backwards.
21:15:02 <SimonRC> the 1201 is hapenning again
21:15:09 <ehird> SimonRC: 1201 or 1202
21:15:13 <ehird> also, I don't hear that
21:15:15 <ehird> is it the beep thing
21:15:31 <ehird> hey, they stopped. :D
21:15:36 <ehird> they're floating in the air.
21:15:44 <ehird> SimonRC: aren't they meant to orbit again?
21:16:02 <ehird> SimonRC: ok, they're using a bad diagram to represent the redirection
21:16:06 <ehird> you can see it's advancing very quickly
21:16:45 <ehird> Here we goooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:17:13 <ehird> What's that burning stuff?
21:17:24 <ehird> SimonRC: I don't think it landed that smoothly
21:17:31 <ehird> wat, there's a return to earth button
21:17:48 <GregorR-L> Well, that was a fun, brief visit.
21:17:55 <ehird> starts a too long loading thingy
21:17:57 <GregorR-L> Haven't even landed yet and already we're leaving.
21:18:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: you click it and figure out what it does
21:18:15 <pikhq> Oh Lord. Someone's trying to get Gene Ray, Doctor of Cubic, to lecture at my university.
21:18:28 <ehird> pikhq: he did MIT, why not that place
21:18:34 <SimonRC> "... The eagle has landed"
21:18:47 <pikhq> GregorR-L: This is sure to be interesting.
21:18:49 <ehird> anyone returned to earth?
21:18:54 <ehird> SimonRC: i don't hear cheering yet :(
21:19:11 <ehird> Someone return to earth, dammit.
21:19:14 <pikhq> Might be slightly tricky to get the powers that be to approve the venture, but only slightly.
21:19:23 <ehird> BUT THE BUTTON MIGHT DISAPPEAR
21:19:33 <ehird> do it in another tab or something :P
21:20:01 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR-L: "Distance from moon 220259 nm"
21:20:07 <ehird> It's one of them optical illusions.
21:20:51 <SimonRC> "distance from moon 120ft"
21:21:03 <pikhq> "I welcome the opportunity to lecture at the University of Missouri, please procede with the venture. Be warned, be careful, for you could pay a price for your yearning." -- Gene Ray, Doctor of Cubic
21:21:25 <ehird> Meanwhile, http://www.theonion.com/content/index?utm_source=nav
21:21:28 <GregorR-L> That is such a Time Cube thing to say.
21:21:42 <ehird> pikhq: Doctor of Cubicism, btw.
21:22:40 <pikhq> ehird: Fine, fine.
21:22:48 <pikhq> Gene Ray, Cubic and Wisest Human
21:23:34 <ehird> Anyone returned to earth?
21:23:40 <ehird> Return to fucking earth, you bitch.
21:24:17 <ehird> Made with all ingredients, this gel is perfect for any occasion. Child and adult enjoy it equally, sometimes, as do even pets! If you need gel, buy this gel.
21:24:18 <ehird> The device has been completed and is now available for sale. Code 41-Virtue-00B
21:24:20 <ehird> http://www.yuwanmei.com/products
21:24:30 <ehird> I want the Device.
21:25:39 <ehird> SimonRC: we're seconds out of sync :P
21:25:43 <GregorR-L> Probably whether they're going to, y'know, STAY or NOT STAY :P
21:26:18 <ehird> I assume not, as we haven't had Armstrong's speech.
21:26:18 <SimonRC> they had a load of stuff to do
21:26:30 <SimonRC> make sure thaty they weren't leaking for example
21:26:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: What goof?
21:26:48 <SimonRC> if they were leaking fule, they would be unable to get off unless they went right away
21:26:53 <ehird> You mean the [a] man thing.
21:27:12 <ehird> It's not really a goof, IMO... It's way better this way.
21:27:18 <ehird> "a man" would have been much less memorable.
21:27:18 <SimonRC> I thought hea said "One small step f'ra man..."
21:27:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: It flows much better as "One small step for man..."
21:27:46 <ehird> SimonRC: He maintained that too, but analysis of the recordings says not.
21:27:49 <GregorR-L> It may flow better, but it's meaningless.
21:28:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's only meaningless if you can't pattern-match.
21:28:09 <GregorR-L> One small step for mankind, one giant leap for mankind.
21:28:09 <ehird> We're gigantic inferring, pattern-matching machines.
21:28:15 <SimonRC> ah, the reason for not using auto-targeting
21:28:16 <ehird> The meaning is obvious, clear and precise.
21:28:28 <GregorR-L> It's only obvious because it's obvious the goof he made :P
21:28:28 <ehird> SimonRC: I didn't hear; what was it?
21:28:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: Uhh, a ton of people didn't think it was a goof.
21:28:44 <SimonRC> there were loads of rocks where it was putting them
21:29:06 <ehird> SimonRC: It said that in the top-left mission status thing.
21:29:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'va got something to make yer blood boil.
21:29:21 <ehird> "Saying it was a waste of $11, Los Angeles resident Dan Bevver expressed disappointment Sunday that The Taking Of Pelham 1 2 3 was not nearly as bad as he had been anticipating. After going in with expectations of hammy acting and clichéd dialogue, Bevver was irritated to find an adequate retelling of the 1974 film, with performances that ranged from acceptable to decent."
21:30:02 <GregorR-L> "And don't forget one in the command module" lol
21:30:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's an Onion article. :P
21:30:02 <SimonRC> ehird: there was a similar review of the new ST movie
21:30:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: I was muted; what did they say beforehand?
21:30:32 <SimonRC> ehird: lots of smiling faces in the command room
21:30:43 <ehird> 21:30 GregorR-L: Saddest thing ever said? :P
21:31:16 <GregorR-L> Well, he said it himself. The guy in the command module. They said something about two guys being up there, and he said "And don't forget one in the command module" :P
21:31:50 <SimonRC> that was the furthest one person had ever been from any other human alone
21:32:49 <ehird> SimonRC: wasn't there that report of those two guys who heard a russian drift off into space
21:33:05 <SimonRC> a russian drifting into space?
21:33:08 <ehird> SimonRC: also, what do you mean by that?
21:33:23 <ehird> read it about a web article, some kids hijacked the communications of missions and stuff
21:33:32 <ehird> i don't recall the url
21:33:40 <ehird> 21:31 SimonRC: that was the furthest one person had ever been from any other human alone
21:33:42 <ehird> what does that mean
21:33:45 <ehird> i can't parse that sentence properly
21:34:13 <SimonRC> well, untill the seperation, they were 25000mi from most humanity, but only a few meters from each other
21:34:45 <ehird> SimonRC: wait, i'm not sure i understand
21:34:48 <ehird> who is apart from who
21:36:42 <SimonRC> Collins will soon be 1000s of miles from Armstrong and Aldrin
21:37:33 <ehird> i never really thought much about the return mission... or anyone but armstrong or aldrin... of course someone had to say behind
21:37:48 <ehird> i haven't really ever thought much about apollo 11 :p
21:38:56 <SimonRC> ooh, they are doing a computer memory dump
21:39:04 <ehird> SimonRC: what... all of it?
21:39:07 <ehird> over the audio channel?
21:39:20 <ehird> it must have had a kilobyte or two of memory
21:39:39 <ehird> Launch dateJuly 16, 1969
21:40:02 <SimonRC> I don't know the answers to either of your questions
21:40:14 <ehird> Number of lunar orbits30
21:40:21 <ehird> SimonRC: methinks that diagram was... not very accurate :D
21:40:42 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, with second accuracy.
21:41:04 <ehird> wanted to make a show huh :)
21:41:50 <SimonRC> how long until they get out?
21:42:08 <ehird> [[Shortly after landing, before preparations began for the EVA, Aldrin broadcast that:
21:42:08 <ehird> This is the LM pilot. I'd like to take this opportunity to ask every person listening in, whoever and wherever they may be, to pause for a moment and contemplate the events of the past few hours and to give thanks in his or her own way.[15]
21:42:12 <ehird> He then took Communion privately.]]
21:42:36 <ehird> "I've landed on the goddamn moon thanks to decades, nay centuries, of scientific progress and human accomplishment. I know! I'll go eat a Jewish zombie's flesh."
21:44:05 <ehird> i'm not sure why you'd risk drinking any amount of alcohol for such an important thing tbh, but there you go
21:44:19 <ehird> haha, i wish i could hear what they're saying
21:44:32 <SimonRC> they're talking about correcting the mission timer
21:44:52 <SimonRC> it seems the first digit is a 9 instead of a 1
21:45:11 <ehird> SimonRC: At 02:56 UTC on Monday July 21 (10:56pm EDT, Sunday July 20), 1969, Armstrong began his descent to the Moon's surface
21:45:17 <ehird> so midnight in the UK
21:45:22 <ehird> until they descend
21:45:25 <ehird> wow that's a long time to wait.
21:45:30 <ehird> i'm preëmptively bored
21:49:18 <ehird> After the astronauts planted a U.S. flag on the lunar surface, they spoke with President Richard Nixon through a telephone-radio transmission which Nixon called "the most historic phone call ever made from the White House."
21:50:36 <ehird> "While moving in the cabin Aldrin accidentally broke the circuit breaker that armed the main engine for lift off from the moon. There was initial concern this would prevent firing the engine, which would strand them on the moon. Fortunately a felt-tip pen was sufficient to activate the switch."
21:50:40 <SimonRC> "The schedule for the mission called for the astronauts to follow the landing with a five-hour sleep period" -- ok, you just landed on the moon. now take a nap
21:50:49 <ehird> "Whoopsy! Oh, never mind. I just poked it."
21:51:06 <ehird> SimonRC: would be a gripping tv thingy that
21:51:16 <ehird> "AND NOW, A PICTURE OF THE MODULE FOR FIVE HOURS"
21:51:39 <ehird> i wonder how long they actually walked on the moon
21:51:59 <ehird> yeah, I'm just wondering actually how long
21:52:04 <SimonRC> 11 was pretty much a flags and footprints affair, IIRC
21:52:33 <SimonRC> fuck, well I can't listen to the famous line in pseudo-real time
21:52:44 <ehird> SimonRC: er, lag much?
21:52:46 <ehird> I said that ages ago
21:52:53 <SimonRC> I ought to at least go home before that point
21:53:01 <SimonRC> no, the "one small step" line
21:53:19 <ehird> [[Subsequent Apollo missions usually planted the American flags at least 100 feet (30 m) from the LM to avoid being blown over by the ascent engine exhaust.]]
21:53:23 <ehird> I thought we only walked on the moon once
21:53:29 <ehird> I really don't know much about our space missions
21:53:43 <ehird> SimonRC: really, my mind's making shit up
21:53:49 <ehird> to cover for black holes in my knowledge
21:54:22 <ehird> Whatever it is in the UK; BST?
21:55:31 <SimonRC> ah, someone describing the Earth
21:57:45 <ehird> "There is no official flag for Mars because there is no government or other authority to adopt such a flag."
21:57:47 <ehird> — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Mars
21:58:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: didn't you say Mars doesn't have an atmosphere or something?
21:59:06 <ehird> Mars has the potential capacity to host human and other organic life because it has an atmosphere
21:59:07 <ehird> Mars has an atmosphere. While very thin (about 0.7% of Earth's atmosphere), it provides some protection from solar and cosmic radiation and has been used successfully for aerobraking of spacecraft.
22:02:07 * SimonRC contemplates sleeping at work just to get to hear the words
22:02:10 <ehird> anyone wanna return to earth?
22:02:25 <ehird> so worth it! it's totally not, but anything's worth it if it's silly.
22:02:29 <ehird> anything's worth anything if it's sill.
22:02:36 <ehird> eh, I'll return to earth
22:03:06 <ehird> SimonRC: ahahaha it's back in space
22:03:20 <ehird> okay this is boring i'm going back to the moon
22:03:24 <ehird> SimonRC: so I see?
22:03:30 <ehird> did you click it as well or did i make it happen for everyone :-D
22:03:34 <SimonRC> I pressed the button a few minutes after you
22:03:56 * ehird refreshes to get back
22:04:01 -!- augur has joined.
22:04:09 <SimonRC> nope, you broke the entire internet
22:04:33 <ehird> "Only the cloud tops of Venus are closer in terms of habitability to Earth than Mars is."
22:04:41 <SimonRC> ehird: I read that /topic someewhere recently, but I can't remember where
22:04:57 <ehird> SimonRC: Lewis Carroll, What The Tortoise Said To Achilles
22:05:28 <pikhq> ehird: Of course, air is bouyant in the Venus atmosphere
22:05:43 <ehird> pikhq: so you've said
22:05:51 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:06:04 <ehird> pikhq: does that mean if you were in venus's air, you'd float to the top naturally? :D
22:06:29 <ehird> "Mars has no global geomagnetic field comparable to Earth's."
22:07:04 <ehird> SimonRC: all cooled down what
22:07:08 <ehird> oh the space guyzzzzzz
22:07:09 <pikhq> You'd need lead bricks in your shoes to go to the surface.
22:07:53 <ehird> The one-way communication delay due to the speed of light ranges from about 3 minutes at closest approach (approximated by perihelion of Mars minus aphelion of Earth) to 22 minutes at the largest possible superior conjunction (approximated by aphelion of Mars plus aphelion of Earth). Telephone conversations or Internet Relay Chat between Earth and Mars would be highly impractical due to the long time lags involved. NASA has found that direct communicatio
22:07:56 <ehird> n can be blocked for about two weeks every synodic period, around the time of superior conjunction when the Sun is directly between Mars and Earth.[12] A satellite at either of the Earth-Sun L4/L5 Lagrange points could serve as a relay during this period to solve the problem, or even a constellation of communications satellites, which would be a minor expense in the context of a full-blown Mars colonization program.
22:08:03 <ehird> so less than 30 minutes at all times, apart from when it's infinity
22:08:16 <ehird> a true shame about the speed of light
22:08:20 <ehird> it's not that fast after alll
22:08:37 <ehird> "As with early colonies in the New World, economics would be a crucial aspect to a colony's success. The reduced gravity well of Mars and its position in the solar system may facilitate Mars-Earth trade and provide the rationalization for continued settlement of the planet."
22:08:41 <ehird> rationalization? seriously?
22:08:50 <pikhq> I am strongly of the opinion that I want the physics of the Ender-verse.
22:08:59 <pikhq> Ansible? FUCK YEAH.
22:09:15 <SimonRC> Lorentz symmetry, FUCK NO!
22:09:18 <ehird> pikhq: i'm kinda in favour of the whole "doesn't totally fuck up physics" thing
22:09:40 <ehird> google, unsurprisingly, can has a logo
22:10:18 <ehird> "A philote is the basic building block of matter, the true indivisible particle that is not made up of smaller ones. Philotes take up no space and are essential to the theory of philotic energy. Each atom has a philote of its own, each molecule likewise, and ultimately each human has an aiùa, an intelligent philote. It is suggested that perhaps a single philote, which could be referred to as God, contains the essence of humanity, and/or all sentient spe
22:10:21 <ehird> cies in the known universe."
22:10:24 <ehird> funny how that fits in with Card's theology.
22:10:35 <ehird> i guess gay people don't have ai`uas, though
22:12:01 <ehird> heh card's also a republican who claims to be a democrat
22:12:05 <ehird> [[ Card is a vocal supporter of many aspects of George W. Bush's leadership style, the war on terror, aspects of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and aspects of the USA PATRIOT Act.
22:12:06 <ehird> On November 6, 2006, just one day before a major election in the United States, Card wrote an opinion piece for RealClearPolitics, in which he encourages voters to support the Republicans:
22:12:09 <ehird> “There is only one issue in this election that will matter five or ten years from now, and that's the War on Terror... I say this as a Democrat, for whom the Republican domination of government threatens many values that I hold to be important to America's role as a light among nations. But there are no values that matter to me that will not be gravely endangered if we lose this war.]]
22:12:20 <ehird> "I'm a democrat, guys. Apart from being a republican in every way possible."
22:12:48 <pikhq> ehird: Actually, philotes are a bit inconsistent with his theology.
22:12:53 <ehird> Ooh, he's also anti-we-did-global-warming, anti-we-should-do-something-about-global-warming and anti-evolution.
22:13:12 <GregorR> ehird: He's a republican in democrat's clothing in republican's clothing? :P
22:13:18 <ehird> GregorR: Obviously!
22:13:19 <pikhq> Mormons think that God was just this guy, you know, who became diety of this planet, and that their afterlife consists of being God of a different planet.
22:13:34 <ehird> pikhq: I thought they were more orthodox Christian than that.
22:13:53 <pikhq> They are pretty strongly unorthodox.
22:14:02 <ehird> Believers will live in the Celestial Kingdom, a place wonderful beyond all description, and receive the direct sight and love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who will also live there. Unlike the nonbelievers, you will be united with your family; if you had a Mormon marriage you'll get the fanciest part of the Celestial Kingdom and live like God Himself. Children who die before the age of 8 come here automatically.
22:14:16 <ehird> Virtuous nonbelievers will enjoy the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is totally amazing. Jesus and the Holy Spirit will come to visit sometimes. If you aren't that virtuous you will go to Hell for a while, but eventually Jesus will rescue you and take you to the Telestial Kingdom, which isn't as great but still so wonderful you would off yourself if you knew how good it was. Jesus won't be there but the Spirit will.
22:14:19 <ehird> Although Hitler was baptized by the Mormons and thus released from "spirit prison," he will be judged by God at the Apocalypse and most likely sent to outer darkness with Cain and Satan.
22:14:22 <ehird> pikhq: doesn't sound like being god of a planet to me.
22:14:27 <SimonRC> (getting humans to do space colonisation now is looks to me rather like getting prehistoric man to build the Trans-Siberian railway with stone axes and shoulder-blade shovels while he is migrating across the asian continent for the first time.)
22:14:33 <pikhq> ehird: Where you getting this?
22:14:40 <ehird> pikhq: http://shii.org/afterlife
22:14:53 <ehird> Which, being accurate for all the other belief systems, I am not particularly inclined to doubt.
22:15:00 <ehird> (I would doubt it if he was a Mormon himself, but he isn't.)
22:15:27 <pikhq> That's pretty close, but "live like God Himself" include being a deity of a world. ;)
22:15:51 <pikhq> (I guess I generalised a little bit for sake of demonstration)
22:16:06 <ehird> I take issue with that page, incidentally, because it ranks consciousness-snuffed-outness as a positive outcome, which fucks up the ordering in my opinion.
22:16:19 <ehird> The Mormon treatment of everyone is the nicest.
22:16:40 <ehird> (It's understandable, though, because the author is a Buddhist so he's kinda working towards that whole permanent death thing.)
22:16:56 <ehird> (Whereas we the irreligious think he could do that perfectly fine by just sitting around for a while. :-) )
22:17:23 <pikhq> Bad description of Greek afterlife; Hades is not entirely hell.
22:17:35 <ehird> "The rest of us poor bastards go to Hades and just sit there gloomily."
22:17:38 <ehird> He doesn't imply it's hell.
22:17:42 <ehird> "Hitler also goes to Hades, but he gets punished. Forever."
22:18:33 <ehird> "Unbelievers will fall off a bridge and into Hell, where they will be tortured forever. Apparently there will be some sort of judgement involved, but it doesn't matter because in the end the believers will go to Heaven and the unbelievers to Hell."
22:18:35 <ehird> Nutrimatic religion.
22:25:51 <pikhq> Man, reading about the Apollo flight computer...
22:26:04 <pikhq> It was the first computer to use integrated circuits.
22:26:07 <ehird> how many kb did it have
22:26:38 <pikhq> 2 kibiwords; 16-bit word, so 2 kibibytes.
22:27:04 <ehird> I can't imagine that taking us to the moon.
22:27:09 <pikhq> And the integrated circuits? It used 4,100 ICs.
22:27:09 <pikhq> Each one contained a single gate.
22:27:18 <pikhq> A single nor gate.
22:27:26 <ehird> Surely impossible...
22:29:38 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:30:11 <AnMaster> google holiday logo on results page, but not main page
22:30:12 <pikhq> Also, magnetic core memory.
22:30:22 <AnMaster> and clicking on it just takes you to main page
22:31:23 <pikhq> Oh, wait. It was not a Von Neuman architecture.
22:31:46 <pikhq> 2 kibiwords of program storage in rope memory, and 24 kibiwords of RAM.
22:32:26 <AnMaster> oh it's http://img0.gmodules.com/logos/moonlanding09_res.gif
22:32:51 <pikhq> And there's an assembly instruction on it, "EDRUPT" that is used once in the guidance software that nobody knows what it does.
22:33:14 <pikhq> All that's known is that it was implemented as asked for by Ed, and that it's an interrupt of some sort.
22:36:26 <ehird> has anyone tried patching it out
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22:38:45 <pikhq> The Shuttle's computers are much easier to deal with...
22:38:51 <pikhq> Just a very old IBM mainframe.
22:40:34 <ehird> [[Years later, it was publically revealed that Nixon had prepared a speech to be given if the mission resulted in death. The lunar module had not been tested to assess if it could launch from the moon surface.]]
22:41:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, Is "EDRUPT" in the space shuttle? Did I really understand that right?
22:42:13 <ehird> No, in the Apollo 11 systems.
22:42:19 <ehird> And Ed may well be dead, or has forgotten.
22:42:20 <ehird> It's been 40 years.
22:46:12 <augur> is there an esolang that uses orbital mechanics? :o
22:46:27 <augur> it should be something like
22:46:54 <ehird> pikhq: are you listening to the broadcast?
22:46:58 <ehird> it sounded like the control center there for a second
22:47:03 <augur> a control satellite orbits command objects
22:47:31 <augur> and has to move from one orbit to another in order to engage in control flow
22:47:56 <ehird> http://wechoosethemoon.org/; bring a Flash player.
22:48:03 <ehird> The moon landing, in real time, time-delayed 40 years.
22:48:14 <ehird> All the communications.
22:48:19 <augur> and the only way it can do this is by the command objects gravity attracting the control satellite via normal orbital dynamics
22:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: why "hah"?
22:49:30 <AnMaster> augur, wouldn't that be uncomputable? Somewhat like "gravity" is?
22:49:54 <augur> no, noone said it would require perfect solutions to the coupled differential equations
22:50:10 <pikhq> ehird: No, I'm working and chatting on IRC from time to time.
22:50:18 <augur> rather, you'd just use numerical methods to simulate n-body orbital mechanics and to hell with the error
22:50:22 <ehird> Working is for ... triangles.
22:50:24 <ehird> You're a triangle, pikhq.
22:51:27 <augur> alternatively, you could have a "control" thing that fires little objects out at whatever interval you want, and they have to impact the appropriate command object
22:52:32 <augur> while all of these things engage in free orbiting (the control drone could orbit far enough out to take a circular orbit, tho, so we can treat that as being fixed in space)
22:54:38 <augur> the task of the programmer would be to discover some combination of command drone firing, coupled with initial orbital conditions, to make it so that the right orbiter is impacted at the right time
22:55:09 <augur> this is probably impossible to achieve for all but the most trivial of problems.
22:57:48 <AnMaster> augur, sounds like it wouldn't be TC anyway... unless you have control flow somehow
22:57:53 <pikhq> That is pretty clearly a domain-specific language.
22:58:18 <pikhq> And a pretty crazy one at that.
23:06:54 <augur> well it was just an initial idea
23:07:18 <augur> since itd be fucking impossible to program
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23:22:56 -!- GregorR has joined.
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23:39:44 <HackEgo> test \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ test English word \ Definitions: \ \ communication covering experiment mental measurement run trial \ \ a set of questions or exercises evaluating skill or knowledge a hard outer covering as of some amoebas and sea urchins trying something to find out about it any standardized procedure
23:39:45 <HackEgo> 2 \ \ 2 \ \ Input: \ \ 2 \ \ 2 \ \ Result: \ \ 4 \ Number name: \ \ four \ Visual representation: \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on July 20, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
23:39:57 <HackEgo> lengths of months \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ length unit \ \ month \ \ Result: \ \ 1 length unit mo length unit month \ Unit conversions: 6 \ \ 6.408 10 m s meter seconds \ \ Interpretation: \ \ no standard named quantities \ Basic unit dimensions: \ \ length time \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
23:40:24 <HackEgo> days of months \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ day \ \ month \ \ Unit conversions: \ \ 1 day : 30.42 days \ Comparisons: \ \ 1 day is 0.03288 times smaller than 1 mo \ Ratios: \ \ 1 : 30.42 \ Total: \ \ 31.42 days \ Fractions of total: \ \ 0.03183 \ \ 0.9682 \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on July
23:40:53 <AnMaster> I want it to calculate how long an average month is :/
23:41:13 <AnMaster> natural language input can go fuck itself
23:42:45 <FireFly> 365.24/12 should be pretty close?
23:44:05 <FireFly> Hm, that isn't too hard to remember.. Got to update my reference number for average days/year...
23:44:51 -!- GregorR has joined.
23:44:52 <FireFly> "The average month in the Gregorian calendar has a length of 30.4167" - Says wiki
23:45:19 <FireFly> Oh, that was only during non-leap years
23:45:27 <FireFly> Nope, days per average month
23:48:16 * nescience catches up to where you were already at!
23:48:25 <oerjan> literal minded people are literal minded
23:49:50 <nescience> it's not so much 'literal minded' as it is 'annoyed at people shortening the name of a website to a noun that already has a different meaning'
23:50:20 <ehird> FireFly: plz never use Wiki as a noun unless you mean WikiWikiWeb
23:52:02 <pikhq> Never use Wiki as a *proper* noun unless you mean the WikiWikiWeb. Kthx.
23:52:21 <ehird> pikhq: [Full-disclosure] anti-sec: OpenSSH <= 5.2 zero day exploit code -48 hours until it is publicly released!
23:52:34 <oerjan> The wiki is a small wingless spanish bird, known for hanging upside down in trees by its powerful claws.
23:52:39 <ehird> And, paradoxically, full disclosure.
23:53:19 <pikhq> OPENSSH ZERO DAY FUCK fUCK FUCK
23:53:57 <pikhq> I'm glad that my place of employment has iptables rules to limit who can SSH in.
23:54:08 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/20/anti_sec_spoof/
23:54:16 <ehird> ...at least if you trust El Reg
23:54:22 <ehird> Trusting El Reg is rarely the correct decision.
23:54:53 <ehird> "AntiSec would never fully disclose. They would only sell the exploit to those whom they consider the last moral agents in a completely destitute society: spammers, internet griefers, and of course Romanian credit card thieves."
23:55:10 <pikhq> Quoted for truth, I assume.
23:55:20 <oerjan> what's an internet griefer?
23:55:33 <pikhq> oerjan: Script kiddies with more knowledge, I assume.
00:07:35 <GregorR> Mmmm, root beer + coca-cola.
00:10:49 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:12:25 -!- GregorR has joined.
00:13:02 <GregorR> Sorry about all the logoffs/logons, I'm testing more minimalistic WMs
00:13:25 <GregorR> Well, right now I'm trying fluxbox.
00:15:58 <ehird> GregorR: Try IceWM.
00:16:23 <ehird> It does the minimum necessary for the actual window management stuff.
00:16:24 <ehird> GregorR: alcoholic root beer or not?
00:16:39 <GregorR> You have alcoholic root beer in the UK? :P
00:25:40 <ehird> Root beer, popularized in North America, comes in two forms: alcoholic and soft drink.
00:26:12 <ehird> I was just wondering, because there's a good chance that a mix of a soft drink and any other drink is alcoholic :P
00:29:49 -!- ehird has set topic: HOLY SHIT: MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON — The Onion, Monday, July 21, 1969 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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00:35:07 <oerjan> i think fucking moons can be dangerous, and would generally keep away from them.
00:36:03 <pikhq> ... Alcoholic root beer?
00:36:20 <pikhq> I suppose next you'll tell me that they make alcoholic ginger ale.
00:39:32 <ehird> Does root beer actually taste any good?
00:39:57 <pikhq> If you get root beer that is actually brewed, it is the most delicious soft drink.
00:40:19 <pikhq> If you get the cheap crap that most people are familiar with, it is still rather tasty. Just nowhere near as much.
00:41:38 <ehird> I might have to try it, then.
00:41:46 <pikhq> The same is true of ginger ale.
00:41:59 <GregorR> So what, you don't have root beer in the UK? :P
00:42:05 <oerjan> GregorR: so, do you know anything that tastes good to you but that nearly no one else likes?
00:42:07 <pikhq> Though what's actually brewed is so much better that it almost counts as a different soft drink.
00:42:09 <ehird> I've just never tried it.
00:42:29 <pikhq> Though Moxie is not disliked by many people.
00:42:37 <pikhq> It's unknown by many people.\
00:42:47 <GregorR> Many people who know it hate it :P
00:43:15 <GregorR> I like most everything, minus beverages and most dairy products.
00:43:24 <ehird> I hate most everything.
00:43:28 <pikhq> Many people hate very spicy things.
00:43:42 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:43:45 <GregorR> But people don't hate it because they dislike the flavor, they hate it because it hurts, that's not really fair.
00:43:50 <ehird> Are you on the moon?
00:43:58 <ehird> Go to the moon, Zuu.
00:44:12 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:44:17 <pikhq> GregorR: Many people hate any concentration of capsaicin.
00:44:35 <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
00:44:44 <GregorR> `addquote <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
00:44:48 <HackEgo> 44|<zzo38> I am not on the moon.
00:45:00 <GregorR> (That was just so matter-of-fact I couldn't help but laugh :P )
00:45:05 <zzo38> Because I am on the Earth.
00:45:17 <ehird> zzo38: Why aren't you a martian?
00:45:21 <ehird> <zzo38> Because I am a human.
00:45:42 <ehird> pikhq: I want to try a Naga Jolokia sometime.
00:45:44 <ehird> Because I hate myself.
00:45:51 <ehird> "In 2009, Indian defense scientists claimed to have found a new place to use the chilies -- in hand grenades. The scientists aim to use the Chillies to control rioters to immobilize people without killing them.[12]"
00:45:57 <ehird> HAND GRENADE-GRADE PEPPER.
00:46:06 <ehird> I wonder what happens if you ingest PURE CAPSAICIN.
00:46:25 <pikhq> Anaphylatic shock.
00:46:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Client Quit).
00:47:51 <ehird> GregorR: This broadcast sure has been exciting for several hours.
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00:49:17 <ehird> <momentous speech> fzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
00:50:31 <oerjan> > iterate(const 'z')'f'
00:50:32 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:50:33 <lambdabot> "fzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
00:50:50 <ehird> zzo38: are you on the moon yet?
00:51:14 <zzo38> I'm not on the moon, I am trying to test something with this program
00:51:26 <ehird> zzo38: Why aren't you on the moon?
00:52:04 <zzo38> Why should I be on the moon?
00:52:19 <ehird> zzo38: Because it's been 40 years since you were last there.
00:52:26 <ehird> You'd think that you'd go and see how it's doing.
00:53:06 <zzo38> It takes a lot of rockets and stuff to go to the moon.
00:53:20 <ehird> zzo38: Well, get some!
00:53:51 <ehird> zzo38: The Moon won't be pleased.
00:53:56 <ehird> It's a harsh mistress.
00:55:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:57:33 * oerjan has this feeling zzo38 doesn't like jokes
00:57:49 <GregorR> He might if they were in Chinese *shrugs*
00:58:06 <oerjan> i had the impression he was american.
00:58:35 <oerjan> after first having had the impression he was chinese, and then getting told that was wrong.
00:59:30 <oerjan> his real name is Bob, and he's starting to get angry at us
01:00:07 <oerjan> you might still survive if you are careful with your apostrophes
01:01:32 <pikhq> ehird: It's a Harsh Mistress.
01:01:41 <ehird> pikhq: That was my reference.
01:01:58 <ehird> Despite having never read it.
01:02:17 <ehird> I just, never get round to it.
01:02:24 <ehird> Also, Heinlein was a libertarian.
01:02:29 <ehird> He therefore loses mental prioriy.
01:02:39 <pikhq> Yes, but he was also an awesome author.
01:03:00 <ehird> Ayn Rand was both a libertarian and a shitty author.
01:03:08 <ehird> Ooh I have a joke now
01:03:22 <ehird> Q: What do you call a dyslexic who believes in freedom for all?
01:04:01 <Gracenotes> the joke police are here to inform you it is unlikely a dyslexic would confuse librarian and libertarian
01:04:14 <ehird> Gracenotes: Duck my sick.
01:04:29 <pikhq> However, a dyslexic would confuse libertarian and nairatrebil.
01:04:40 <pikhq> Now if only there were nairatrebils.
01:04:49 <ehird> nairatre-billed platypus
01:09:25 <pikhq> Republicans whargarbling about how the healthcare reform is an "irresponsible experiment".
01:09:26 <oerjan> are those related to gerbils?
01:09:45 <pikhq> ... Fine, you want something tried and tested? Let's do what every other developed nation does.
01:10:47 <pikhq> Man. Health-care reform being proposed and a single-payer system isn't even considered.
01:11:00 <ehird> pikhq: IT'S COMMUNIST
01:11:15 <ehird> ☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭
01:12:25 <GregorR> ^^^ (Too content free for people to realize this is a Charlie the Unicorn quote)
01:12:59 <ehird> pikhq: I've never been able to inform my brain about the US healthcare system.
01:13:03 <ehird> If I understand it right...
01:13:08 <ehird> When you go into a medical institution...
01:13:13 <ehird> It's owned by some corporation or another...
01:13:18 <ehird> and you have to buy the services?
01:13:27 <GregorR> No, that's why we have insurance.
01:13:38 <ehird> GregorR: That's exactly the same but you pay in bulk.
01:13:44 <GregorR> But yes, that's the principle of the thing.
01:13:53 <ehird> It's always seemed so profoundly fucked up to charge money for being a healthy human being.
01:14:08 <GregorR> It's not as bad a system as people make it out to be, but it's pretty wtfbbq.
01:14:36 <pikhq> ehird: If it's an emergency, you get medical treatment and *then* you have to pay.
01:14:51 <GregorR> Also, any job worth its salt includes medical insurance.
01:14:56 <ehird> pikhq: And if you don't pay, you get the death penalty.
01:14:56 <pikhq> (thereby going into debt, if you have no insurance)
01:15:00 <GregorR> Hell, I'm a student and I get medical insurance through the school.
01:15:01 <ehird> (Please tell me this is true it would be hilarious)
01:15:12 <GregorR> Well I'm a graduate student.
01:15:51 <GregorR> I'm pretty sure we abolished the death sentence for dept a while ago :P
01:16:06 <pikhq> Because often-times the only way to get medical treatment is to get treatment and *default on your debt*, our ERs are flooded.
01:16:19 <ehird> We don't have the death penalty in the UK.
01:16:27 <pikhq> Sorry, get treatment in the ER.
01:16:47 <pikhq> ehird: We have people who claim to be "Pro-life" trying to ban abortions.
01:16:51 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Death_Penalty_World_Map.svg ← the slate red means "actively uses the dealth penalty"
01:16:56 <ehird> you guys are in great company!
01:17:10 <pikhq> Who are simultaneously for the death penalty and no public health care.
01:17:29 <ehird> The only valuable lives are the sacred, untouched babies... so sleek and firm...
01:17:46 <ehird> WHOA I JUST STEERED THE CONVERSATION TO BABYPHILIA
01:17:47 <ehird> YOU SURE DID EHIRD
01:17:49 <pikhq> That's not a stance of "pro-life", that's just "pro-birth". As soon as you're popped out, they cease to give a fuck.
01:18:03 <GregorR> ehird: When you're eating a dead baby, why don't you eat the colon?
01:18:14 <ehird> GregorR: I don't know. Why don't you?
01:18:18 <GregorR> Nobody wants to eat their own semen!
01:18:39 <GregorR> That joke is Copyright (C) 2004 Gregor Richards
01:18:41 <oerjan> nothing to see here, move on.
01:19:38 <GregorR> Normally it's a good idea to eaaaaaaaaase the conversation into a dead baby joke that foul, but *eh* :P
01:19:39 <pikhq> Jokes aside, guys.
01:19:54 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:20:04 <pikhq> Clearly, the pro-lifers really are just fans of "A Modest Proposal".
01:20:05 <ehird> zzo38: EATING DEAD BABY'S COLONS
01:20:38 <pikhq> GregorR: It's the only consistent explanation.
01:20:42 * GregorR pokes ehird in the facehole.
01:20:56 <ehird> Facehole... OR MANHOLE
01:20:56 <pikhq> Well, consistent with everything except the actual eating of babies.
01:21:25 <pikhq> zzo38: I see you wanted some packets from me... FROM SPACE!
01:21:48 <GregorR> Oh come on people, get out of your damned lander module and start a'walkin'!
01:21:49 <ehird> Deep, deep space. pikhq's deep space.
01:21:55 <ehird> Inside, only blackness.
01:22:02 <ehird> WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE
01:22:08 <zzo38> MizardX responds PING not quite right?
01:22:22 <zzo38> Actually, I was just testing a CRISC script in PHIRC to see if it could work.
01:23:11 <ehird> pikhq's black hole. It sucks in all matter.
01:23:19 <ehird> Guys, can we be more controversial.
01:23:57 * pikhq takes ehird to NAMBLA
01:24:21 <ehird> NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN PIKHQ'S EVENT HORIZON
01:24:37 <GregorR> ehird: JOKES TOO STUPID. CEASE AND DESIST.
01:24:55 <ehird> GregorR: More like 'de cyst, right?
01:24:57 <AnMaster> * oerjan has this feeling zzo38 doesn't like jokes <-- Btw, I thought those jokes were kind of funny.
01:25:00 <ehird> By which I mean the cyst.
01:25:15 <pikhq> What do you get when you combine a monkey and a bungee cord?
01:25:23 <ehird> A monkey with a bungee cord, pikhq.
01:25:23 <pikhq> MY ASS. MAHAH.HAH.
01:25:25 <ehird> A monkey with a bungee cord.
01:25:36 <zzo38> I never said I didn't like this jokes (or anything else either)
01:25:37 <pikhq> It's been too long since I've seen Kung Pow, okay?
01:25:57 <ehird> FLOTSAM, JETSAM AND THE AXIOMATIC SYSTEM
01:26:15 <zzo38> CRISC is the scripting language built-in to PHIRC. You can combine CRISC codes with PHIRC codes.
01:26:27 <zzo38> s/with PHIRC codes/with PHP codes/
01:26:39 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Clearly, the pro-lifers really are just fans of "A Modest Proposal". <-- that title sounds familiar. Rings a bell yes. But no clue what bell..
01:26:40 <pikhq> Not enough arrows.
01:26:47 <ehird> zzo38: does PHPIRC combat the maximum 22-minute lag from here to Mars?
01:26:55 <ehird> (shortest 3 minutes; sometimes unreachable)
01:26:57 <HackEgo> Jonathan Swift's satirical essay from 1729, where he suggests that the Irish eat their own children. \ art-bin.com/art/omodest.html - [16]Cached - [17]Similar
01:27:04 <ehird> delaying everything from earth by those minutes
01:27:07 <ehird> so that the chat is synced up
01:27:25 <ehird> It's a piece of land.
01:27:27 <pikhq> READ A FUCKING BOOK PEOPLE.
01:27:34 <AnMaster> (spelled it in Swedish by mistake)
01:27:37 <ehird> pikhq: Books? Having SEXUAL INTERCOURSE?!
01:27:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Needs more of this:
01:27:40 <zzo38> PHIRC knows nothing about Mars. It won't work with Mars unless someone connects internet to Mars, and even then it will be just as slow as any other internet connection to Mars.
01:27:52 <ehird> zzo38: Yesb ut if you delay the Earth messages by 22 minutes or so
01:27:56 <lambdabot> forall b (m :: * -> *) c a. (Monad m) => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
01:27:58 <ehird> then earth/mars chat can happen chronologically
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01:28:45 <zzo38> You can add new protocols to PHIRC by writing them as a PHP class. I would like to see any that people might add.
01:28:50 <pikhq> Mmm, gluing functions of monads together.
01:29:03 <ehird> zzo38: Pap dap dop duk til bot ding?
01:29:14 <zzo38> ehird: What's that?
01:29:14 <ehird> DECIMAL 59 DECIMAL 59
01:29:26 <ehird> Which is octal 12479892.
01:29:33 <GregorR> Dobleve te efe is "papa decimal two"?
01:29:48 <ehird> GregorR: Fvstruk dang dop dong pop top top top bing bong bang?
01:32:08 <zzo38> There's the example script I used to ping everyone on the channel: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PHIRC/example1.crisc
01:32:54 <pikhq> TECO is not considered a good idea.
01:33:54 <pikhq> The canonical write-only language.
01:34:23 <zzo38> I know what TECO is. But what are you talking about TECO and Jesus?
01:34:39 <pikhq> CRISC is like TECO.
01:34:44 <pikhq> And that's not a good thing.
01:35:17 <zzo38> You can also use PHP to extend PHIRC as well.
01:35:27 <ehird> 01:34 zzo38: I know what TECO is. But what are you talking about TECO and Jesus?
01:35:32 <zzo38> And you can combine PHP codes with CRISC codes to extend PHIRC also.
01:35:34 <ehird> When did he say Je— oh.
01:37:22 <zzo38> Well, here's a much simpler CRISC code for initializing some settings: http://pastebin.ca/1501559
01:38:34 <zzo38> As you can see, this one is a much simpler code.
01:39:20 * pikhq returns a vomit thunk
01:39:45 <zzo38> /SET sets a configuration setting, /MAC 1 makes a macro for the F1 key, /CLS clears screen, /V displays version of PHIRC, /SIZE makes it retrieve the size of the terminal window so that it can backspace across lines properly.
01:40:00 <ehird> pikhq: a vomit thunk?
01:40:07 <ehird> maybe a thunk of type IO Vomit?
01:40:17 <pikhq> ehird: It's a thunk that, when evaluated, results in vomit.
01:40:29 <ehird> Yes, but vomit has side effects.
01:40:44 <pikhq> Fine, fine. It's in the IO monad.
01:41:07 <ehird> Then it's not vomit; it's an action that, when executed by the RTS, results in vomit.
01:41:22 * pikhq willo-onhaven have vomited upon that being executed
01:41:35 <ehird> "onhaven have"? is that correct?
01:42:12 <pikhq> I only read the first couple of pages of the book of temporal conjugations; the rest could be blank for all I know. :P
01:42:25 <ehird> wait, there's actually a whole book for it?
01:42:28 <ehird> I thought Adams just made it up
01:42:40 <ehird> googling suggests not
01:42:46 <pikhq> I'm just continuing the DNA reference.
01:43:08 <pikhq> He said that later editions were printed with most of the pages blank, since nobody read more than a few pages at the start.
01:43:10 <ehird> DNA = Douglas Adams.
01:43:22 <pikhq> Douglas Noel Adams.
01:43:59 <pikhq> And he was born near where DNA was discovered in the same year.
01:44:12 <ehird> pikhq: I wonder what "I will go back in time to kill my grandfather and then will go back to the present day where I will consider this killing" would be in the corerct form.
01:44:22 <ehird> Wow, Adams was 6ft by age 12...
01:44:58 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah. His end-of-growth height was 6ft5in.
01:45:12 <HackEgo> i'm 6ft and just wondering how many inches / cms i am. ... 6 ft = 12 inches/ft X 6 = 72 inches 6 ft = 2.54 cm/inch X 72 inches = 182.88 cm ... 72inches = 6feet. ... \ answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid... - [16]Cached - [17]Similar
01:45:18 <ehird> AnMaster: 1.82meters
01:45:31 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that is quite tall for 12 years then
01:45:31 <ehird> final growth height 1.95meters
01:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: "quite"?!
01:45:39 <ehird> Are all Swedes gigantic?
01:45:54 <ehird> 6ft by age 12 is basically a violation of the laws of physics.
01:45:56 <pikhq> I'm 6 foot and considered slightly tall.
01:46:06 <ehird> All Swedes are tiiiiiiiiiiny.
01:46:11 <ehird> They live in a tiiiiiiiiny country.
01:46:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tiny AnMaster!
01:46:15 <AnMaster> ehird, damn, don't blow the cover!
01:46:18 <pikhq> You must be friends with Tiny Carl Jung!
01:46:22 <ehird> AnMaster: THAT'S HOW YOU'RE FINLAND
01:46:24 <GregorR> ehird: You've never heard the expression "Gargantuan Swedes"?
01:46:27 <ehird> You're a hill in Finland.
01:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, the truth is even darker
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01:47:08 <GregorR> The Swedish majority in my PL group makes me, at a paltry 5'10", seem itty-bitty :P
01:47:10 <ehird> If a Swedish meter is a real centimeter, then Sweden is 1737 square miles.
01:47:12 * pikhq wants some write-only memory
01:47:17 <AnMaster> ehird, rather, we Swedes outnumber the rest of the world's population instead. Just we have about 9 millions controllable robots that looks like real humans
01:47:23 <AnMaster> to make up the fake population
01:47:31 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/
01:47:36 <pikhq> GregorR: That is itty bitty.
01:47:42 <ehird> pikhq: Stored on the highest-grade write-only non-volatile memory.
01:47:47 <ehird> At competitive prices, too!
01:47:56 <ehird> The ONLY provably secure storage service.
01:48:15 <GregorR> `calc 5 foot 10 inches in meters
01:48:17 <HackEgo> 5 foot 10 inches = 1.77800 meters
01:48:59 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you reach your data later then?
01:49:06 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't. It's write-only.
01:49:37 <ehird> To provide write-only storage.
01:50:17 <ehird> People who want write-only storage.
01:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird, examples of such applications?
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01:50:37 <pikhq> (Buy Now!) -- $10,000, the entire S4 website and company
01:50:49 <ehird> AnMaster: They said the same to plenty of things.
01:50:52 <ehird> "Who would want to use that?"
01:50:59 <ehird> "I can't think of any applications."
01:51:02 <ehird> Such Luddite thinking.
01:51:03 <AnMaster> "S4 Amazon's S3 3.5" floppies Abacuses"
01:51:14 <ehird> So they have a funny website.
01:51:22 <ehird> Plenty of Web 2.0 stuff has stuff like that.
01:51:51 <pikhq> I have every reason to believe that they do, in fact, offer write-only storage of data.
01:52:27 <AnMaster> "Consuming S4 is a snap with advanced integration options. Upload directly from our website, send an email, tweet your content, or simply yell in an empty room."
01:52:34 <ehird> AnMaster: It's called humour.
01:52:36 <ehird> The thing you lack.
01:52:41 <ehird> Because not everyone is 100% serious all of the time.
01:54:08 <pikhq> I suspect they use the Signetics 25120 for storage.
01:54:24 <pikhq> http://www.national.com/rap/files/datasheet.pdf
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02:26:03 <GregorR> Running 30 minutes slow? LOSERS
02:26:15 <ehird> MOON LANDING IS FOR FAGS
02:26:34 <ehird> pikhq: Congratulations, you're 26 minutes late.
02:26:41 <ehird> GregorR: You'd get along great with oerjan.
02:26:46 <ehird> pikhq: 27 actually.
02:26:54 <pikhq> ehird: AnMaster, clearly, is on Mars.
02:26:57 <GregorR> ehird: BETTER THAN ALDRIN LAWL
02:27:33 <ehird> GregorR: I've maintained since today that Armstrong/Aldrin slashfic needs to be written, for the increasement of the sum total of sheer inanity in the universe.
02:27:44 <GregorR> `google armstrong aldrin slash fiction
02:27:45 <HackEgo> Jul 18, 2009 ... Apollo 11 Moon landing: ten facts about Armstrong Aldrin and Collins' mission ... Lt Col Michael Collins Neil Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin which allowed man ... /Film (Slash Film) Agence France Presse Al Jazeera ... \ www.newscred.com/...11...armstrong-aldrin.../1784982 - [18]Cached - [19]Similar
02:28:00 <GregorR> `google armstrong aldrin gay slash fic
02:28:01 <HackEgo> Oct 28, 2007 ... They look like a modern gay couple; put them in leathers and, with a piercing or two, they could be in Dykes ... Some of the slashes go right through the paper. ... Adult fiction debut with all the sexual tension of Twilight. video: lunar gadgets. Edwin 'Buzz' Aldrin photographed by Neil Armstrong ...
02:28:28 <GregorR> I think it might actually not be out there D-8
02:30:23 <GregorR> nifty.org, you've failed me.
02:30:29 <GregorR> Nope, it's not out there :P
02:32:38 <ehird> GregorR: I like how as soon as someone says "Armstrong/Aldrin slashfic", you think "Ah yes! Good old nifty.org!"
02:36:40 <ehird> Behind what? BUZZ ALDRIN'S BUTT?
02:37:38 <GregorR> Who's that moon landing conspiracy theorist that Aldrin punched in the face?
02:37:45 <GregorR> They need Aldrin/that-guy slash fiction.
02:40:01 <pikhq> GregorR: I assume BDSM.
02:41:30 <GregorR> "DID WE LAND ON THE MOON?", Aldrin bellowed. ".. yes, yes!", he sobbed tears of both pain and ecstasy.
02:42:53 <pikhq> Your argument is compelling, but needs more flamethrowers.
02:43:43 <ehird> Sexy flamethrowers.
02:44:52 * GregorR really doesn't want to know about your flamethrower slash fic :P
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02:50:04 <GregorR> Heh, are they relaying the lander module, via Earth, to the command module? Yay for totally needless lag :P
02:50:48 <GregorR> oerjan: You missed all the slashfic.
02:51:06 <oerjan> well, i'll be reading the logs. maybe.
02:51:12 <ehird> oerjan: you are gay though.
02:52:52 <GregorR> That was just so utterly contextless I have no response :P
02:53:13 <ehird> 02:26 ehird: MOON LANDING IS FOR FAGS 02:26 GregorR sets off for the moon. 02:26 ehird: GregorR: You'd get along great with oerjan.
02:54:19 <GregorR> "We copy your antenna scratching the roof, roger."
02:54:39 <ehird> is that a real quote? :D
02:54:39 <GregorR> Wooh, cabin depressurization.
02:54:52 <ehird> I can't hear what they say, remember
02:58:08 <GregorR> http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11transcript_tec.html
02:58:17 <GregorR> Connect OPS O2 hose to right hand PGA blue connector and lock <-- just said
02:58:42 <oerjan> <ehird> When did he say Je- oh. <-- I suggest being nice to people. _Even_ if they say Jehovah.
02:59:53 <oerjan> what we have here is a fatal python error.
03:00:30 <oerjan> of the monty implementation.
03:01:32 <GregorR> "Sure wish I'd shaved list night" X-D
03:11:09 <oerjan> > flip take" ta,".fromEnum=<<(randomRs(3,4).mkStdGen)42
03:11:11 <lambdabot> " ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta, ta ta, ta ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta ta, ta, ta, ta, ta t...
03:12:32 <ehird> was botherating me
03:12:49 <oerjan> > flip take" ta,"=<<(randomRs(3,4).mkStdGen)42
03:12:50 <lambdabot> " ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta, ta ta, ta ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta ta, ta, ta, ta, ta t...
03:13:26 <oerjan> > (`take`" ta,")=<<(randomRs(3,4).mkStdGen)42
03:13:28 <lambdabot> " ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta, ta ta, ta ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta ta, ta, ta, ta, ta t...
03:16:02 <pikhq> > tail$(`take`" ta,")=<<(randomRs(3,4).mkStdGen)42
03:16:04 <lambdabot> "ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta, ta ta, ta ta, ta, ta, ta ta ta ta, ta, ta, ta, ta ta...
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03:33:12 <GregorR> From the transcript: 04 12 46 14 LMP (TRANQ)
03:33:13 <GregorR> That's what it is. Yes. *** Why don't you bend down and let me stow that. See if we ***.
03:33:22 <GregorR> The slashfic practically writes itself.
03:41:31 <ehird> HERE WE GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
03:42:22 <ehird> GregorR: When the door opens, you can see Buzz's dick momentarily poke out the door, hungry for more Armstrong action.
03:42:40 <ehird> However, his reflexes quickly recoil, as cryogenic freezing is not preferable to the stoppage of sexual activities.
03:42:47 <GregorR> I refuse to respond to that :P
03:42:48 <ehird> You can analyze the footage. It's true.
03:46:09 <ehird> Ten minutes to go.
03:47:19 <GregorR> "I have to lean this way."
03:48:01 <ehird> GregorR: I TOLD YOU
03:49:52 <GregorR> "Okay. Your back is up against the purse. All right. Now it's on top of the DSKY. Forward and up; now you are clear. Little bit toward me. Straight down, to your left a little bit. Plenty of room. Neil, you're lined up nicely. Toward me a little bit, down. Okay. Now you're clear. You're catching the first hinge on the bottom."
03:50:22 <ehird> GregorR: The evidence is there. You're just denying it.
03:50:24 <ehird> ANALYZE THE FOOTAGE.
03:53:32 <GregorR> "Okay. Everything's nice and straight in here."
03:53:49 <ehird> GregorR: Exactly. In 3 minutes,
03:53:55 <ehird> we will witness the phantom moon dickage.
03:54:01 <ehird> ARMSTRONG WAS THE FIRST MAN ON THE MOON
03:54:05 <ehird> BUT NOT THE FIRST BODY PART
03:56:36 <GregorR> Yes, hang out on the foot of the ladder.
03:58:40 <ehird> GregorR: the audio cut out
03:58:56 <ehird> Refresh until you get in.
03:58:56 <GregorR> I assumed they just cut it off there :P
03:59:50 <GregorR> I hate how long this site's intro is.
04:00:37 <ehird> GregorR: you can press "Start >"
04:00:46 <ehird> saves a few seconds
04:01:31 <ehird> (NA) THAT'S ONE SMALL STEP FOR MAN, ONE GIANT LEAP FOR MANKIND.
04:01:41 <GregorR> Right now I just can't get through at all.
04:02:31 <GregorR> I think they just cut it off there :P
04:02:55 <ehird> the tweets keep coming
04:02:59 <ehird> and it says over capacity
04:03:02 <ehird> i saw that error for a second
04:03:12 <ehird> it's just exploded in popularity round about now
04:03:20 <ehird> GregorR: but the narration is still being twat
04:05:32 <ehird> The word twat has various functions, its primary meaning being a vulgar synonym for the human vulva, vagina, or clitoris.[1] It is also widely used as a derogatory epithet, especially in British English. The word is usually considered vulgar in all contexts.
04:05:49 <ehird> Twat is clearly the correct word.
04:06:46 <GregorR> Well, the two forms of the word are pronounced differently.
04:06:58 <GregorR> Rhymes with lot versus rhymes with fat.
04:07:58 <GregorR> Usage example: I twat of her twat.
04:08:18 <GregorR> (Twitter might have a problem with such twittering though :P )
04:08:21 <ehird> No, it's tweet/twAAt
04:09:04 <GregorR> As opposed to the other form, which rhymes with lot.
04:09:19 <GregorR> Hence, I twAAt of her twAUGHt.
04:09:44 <ehird> http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20090708_Worker_falls_into_chocolate_vat__dies.html
04:11:14 <oerjan> ah, sweet, sweet death
04:12:05 <Slereah> That's the best death after falling in a vat of naked women
04:13:06 <Slereah> Imagine the funeral service
05:30:15 <GregorR> Ah yes, suffocating in boiling chocolate.
05:30:35 <GregorR> (Oh, I guess it's only 120 degrees, not boiling, but still scalding hot)
05:31:08 <oerjan> `calc 120 fahrenheit in celcius
05:31:09 <HackEgo> Temperature question: What is 120 degrees Fahrenheit in Celsius? 120 F = 48.89 C 120 degrees F is equal to 48.89 degrees C Check this cheat sheet out: C to ...
05:31:37 <Slereah> I've had baths at that temperature
05:44:54 <pikhq> GregorR: ... 120°F, scalding?
05:45:02 <pikhq> I dunno about you, but I shower in that.
05:47:55 <pikhq> Hell, there's places that people live that can get hotter than that.
05:48:11 <pikhq> (though it's debatable whether people in Arizona are really living)
05:57:18 <Slereah> Well, living at 49°C isn't the same thing as dipping in it, pikhq
05:57:30 <Slereah> It's not the same conductivity, and you can't sweat in hot chocolate
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07:06:15 <augur> http://www.qubit.org/people/david/David1.jpg
07:06:29 <augur> HOW CAN WE BE SURE
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10:12:58 <augur> regarding the topic: yeah thats pretty accurate actually
10:16:29 <MizardX> So, 40 years ago we set foot on the Moon, and still we haven't reached the next blob.
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10:30:15 <MizardX> "ESA hopes to land humans on Mars between 2030 and 2035."
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11:44:47 <AnMaster> "<nooga_> no?" <-- about what?
12:09:20 <ehird> 06:06 augur: OR EHIRD
12:09:30 <ehird> fairly sure not me
12:09:49 <ehird> 09:30 MizardX: "ESA hopes to land humans on Mars between 2030 and 2035." 10:44 AnMaster: MizardX, why?
12:09:54 <ehird> AnMaster: is that really what you were saying why to?
12:15:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Fuck that attitude. Fuck anyone who's ever said that; they do nothing but ruin the human species. If you meant that as some sort of joke, which the retconning ";D" appears to be vaguely implying, it wasn't funny. I don't think you realise what jokes are. Jokes involves something that's said non-seriously in a way exaggerated so that you can detect it, and this non-seriousness must be used to point out something that makes us laugh. What you sai
12:15:35 <ehird> d didn't do that. It was just "why go?", the eternal question of the idiots. http://miscellanea.wellingtongrey.net/2006/12/18/why-go/
12:20:41 <AnMaster> ehird, you can use fake seriousness used as a joke.
12:21:02 <ehird> AnMaster: You really can't, not when there's no marking context, no conclusion, not even a hint of a followup.
12:21:06 <ehird> I like to murder and fuck babies
12:21:10 <ehird> ↑ Hey, that was a joke.
12:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly more context would have been needed. *shrug*
12:21:26 <ehird> And, if I had made that less obviously wrong, it'd still be a joke!
12:21:39 <ehird> Now for the new wave of humour: Just being stupid on purpose and then claiming it's a joke.
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13:24:36 <ehird> http://www.myoldmac.net/webse-e-flash.htm ← ahhhh system 7
13:28:50 <ehird> omg it even has the screensaver
13:29:38 <ehird> it's a bit faster than an old mac :D
13:30:00 <ehird> omg it doesn't have Geneva as a font option
13:32:40 <ehird> hmm the macintosh 512k was very ugly
13:32:52 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Mac512K_wb.jpg ← the top
13:41:35 <fizzie> It didn't have the Flying Toasters thing. :/ Not that I know what in reality should be included in "the star trek edition" there.
13:49:48 <fizzie> After Dark's probably best-known screensaver, the one with flying toasters.
13:49:58 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:After_Dark_Flying_Toasters.png
13:49:59 <ehird> i'm just wondering what the star trek thing was about
13:50:19 <fizzie> The screen saver control panel in that Flash of yours says "the star trek edition".
13:50:39 <fizzie> And apparently there has indeed been an After Dark star trek edition; at least there are some googly-hits.
13:51:52 <ehird> the menu blinking option is disabled :(
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13:52:01 <ehird> that saddens me. even current OS X blinks its menu items!
13:52:48 <ehird> fizzie: hmm there's no precision bitmap aligning dogcow in that either
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14:06:58 * Sgeo is going to make two Mutation videos
14:09:57 <oerjan> i assume this is an Evolving project
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14:21:38 <ehird> so, we have ObjectiveC++
14:21:43 <ehird> you know what we need?
14:21:58 <ehird> Objective-C++#Java.
14:22:13 <ehird> Objective-C++#JavaAynRand.
14:22:55 <ehird> 10 PRINT [NSString stringWithString:@"HELLO WORLD"]
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14:31:02 <Sgeo> Apparently, my college has Java as a 3xx level course
14:31:09 <Sgeo> Since I took AP Java, I don't need to take it
14:31:17 <ais523> wtf? it seems Microsoft released some Linux device drivers as GPL
14:31:30 <ais523> admittedly, you can't release a Linux driver as anything else if you want people to use it
14:32:13 <AnMaster> ehird, there? Is "Intel® Core 2 Duo Processor T9550" or "Intel® Core 2 Duo Processor P7370" best?
14:32:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Processor speed? FSB speed? Cache?
14:32:36 <HackEgo> Click here to view processor specification detail information. \ processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLGE4 - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
14:32:44 <HackEgo> Click here to view processor specification detail information. \ processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLG8X - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
14:32:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well, FSB is higher for the one with lower cpu freq
14:33:00 <ais523> HackEgo: you should make those "click here"s into links
14:33:14 <ehird> AnMaster: T9550 is better.
14:33:50 <ehird> T is the newer series, uses a little more power, has twice the L2 cache and you get .66ghz free.
14:34:01 <GregorR> ais523: lynx refuses to put links inline
14:34:11 <ehird> GregorR: W3M BITCH
14:34:13 <ais523> ehird: I misread that as "has an L2 cache" and got confused
14:34:28 <ehird> Preserves layout too
14:34:38 <GregorR> I severely do NOT want to preserve layout.
14:34:47 <ehird> GregorR: Only tables and centers and stuff.
14:34:50 <ehird> It'll do nothing to google results.
14:35:25 <ais523> tables would still look weird over IRC
14:36:12 <ehird> /usr/local/bin/lisppaste: line 112: syntax error: unexpected end of file
14:37:37 <ehird> echo -n "$1" | perl -pe's/([^-_.~A-Za-z0-9])/sprintf("%%%02X", ord($1))/seg'
14:37:44 <ehird> You gotta see it to believe it.
14:37:45 <ais523> wow, it's weird seeing someone saying \o/ without myndzi filling the rest in
14:37:56 <ehird> Why on earth is it %%%.
14:37:58 * GregorR wurves Rejected Cartoons :P
14:38:00 <ehird> GregorR: I can quote Rejected too.
14:38:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> T is the newer series, uses a little more power, has twice the L2 cache and you get .66ghz free. <.. 2.0 GHz vs 2.53 GHz = .66 GHz extra?
14:38:05 <ehird> My spoon is too big blah blah blah blah blah.
14:38:06 <ais523> ehird: heredoc ending?
14:38:06 <GregorR> I'm actually watching it and typing :P
14:38:21 <AnMaster> ehird, at least, those are the freqs that Lenovo lists
14:38:25 <ehird> AnMaster: http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLGE4 → 2.66
14:38:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, I thought I already listed the best config option to you ages ago.
14:38:48 <ehird> ais523: I don't see a heredoc
14:38:50 <ehird> echo -n "$1" | perl -pe's/([^-_.~A-Za-z0-9])/sprintf("%%%02X", ord($1))/seg'
14:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but as I said, not available in Sweden. I found some that were.
14:38:56 <ehird> It's the urlencode () function
14:39:17 <ehird> language=$(language_for_extension "${1##*.}") ;;
14:39:23 <ais523> I assumed the %% in the line afterwards was part of your quote
14:39:29 <ehird> where is this damned syntax error
14:39:30 <AnMaster> ehird, remailing turned out impossible, the person I knew in UK had moved to US.
14:39:35 <ais523> (% is an escape character in Konversation)
14:39:45 <ehird> AnMaster: remail from the US :-D
14:39:58 <ais523> also, that obviously prints percent signs followed by hex digits
14:40:03 <ehird> ais523: heh, I used % as an escape for my linguistic fuckerizer
14:40:06 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, but I found a good alternative
14:40:08 <ehird> olde stuff and the like
14:40:14 <ais523> ooh, latest news from the SCO saga: IBM have just accused SCO of fraus
14:40:19 <ehird> ais523: but I made it so that "110%" worked
14:40:24 <ehird> only escapey characters were escapable
14:40:43 <ehird> though %% would prolly trip up to % regardless
14:41:07 <ehird> WHYY IS THIS A SYNTAX ERROR
14:41:13 <ais523> ehird: that's what happened with my three-percents earlier
14:42:11 <ais523> ehird: and what is that a syntax error in?
14:42:34 <ehird> something unterminated, since it's on the last line
14:43:02 <ehird> but the code looks absolutely fine
14:43:12 <ehird> ais523: you'd think they could give the position of the opening delimiter when they did that
14:43:26 <ais523> that often doesn't help either, with nestables
14:43:34 <ais523> you just get the first { in the program, or whatever
14:43:43 <ais523> is the code indented correctly?
14:43:51 <GregorR> <ais523> ooh, latest news from the SCO saga: IBM have just accused SCO of fraud
14:44:02 <ais523> GregorR: surprising, isn't it?
14:44:09 <ehird> 14:43 ais523: you just get the first { in the program, or whatever
14:44:16 <ehird> i can see where i forgot a delimiter
14:44:19 <ehird> (soon after its start, normally0
14:44:30 <GregorR> ais523: I refuse to believe your vile lies :P
14:44:43 <ehird> ais523: autoindenting doesn't change the indentation at the bottom
14:45:10 <ais523> maybe a delimiter got commented out or escaped by mistake?
14:45:25 <ehird> ais523: then it'd syntax highlight or indent correctly; regardless, I can't see any such thing
14:45:47 <ehird> Abuh?! You know how I just joked about Objective-C#?
14:45:52 <ehird> I'm reading a blog's archives.
14:45:57 <ehird> In front of me, right now, post title:
14:46:08 <ehird> Talking about a thing presented at a Microsoft conference.
14:46:15 <ehird> It is literally... maybe I got subconscious influence from it.
14:46:21 <ehird> Like, I think I was scrolled to here when I made the joke.
14:46:29 <ehird> I could have just forgotten briefly looking at it.
14:46:42 <nooga> i tried to write simple app for OS X that displays a window and puts random pixels in it
14:46:53 <ehird> nooga: aren't you an iphone dev?
14:46:59 <nooga> this whole NIB shit confused me
14:47:00 <ehird> you'd think simple os x dev wouldn't be much harder
14:47:06 <ehird> um the iphone has nibs too.
14:47:15 <nooga> ehird: sure, but our app throws nibs away
14:47:24 <ehird> you're a terrible iphone developer
14:47:35 <nooga> we create everything "by hand" using our formats
14:47:53 <ehird> (for the linuxheads: Not using NIBs is like, say, not using Glade, and instead writing monotonous code to generate each UI element at a certain pixel point.)
14:48:14 <nooga> i need a clear window with a surface to draw on
14:48:16 <ehird> (...or in this case, scripting said code with a different format that presumably doesn't have the lovely Interface Builder.)
14:48:38 <ehird> nooga: please tell me the brandname these apps are released under so i can avoid them like the plague
14:49:22 <nooga> it looks as if it were build in IB
14:49:41 <ehird> nooga: aren't you the guy who ported MFC to iPhone just so you didn't have to rewrite some code?
14:49:49 <ehird> i think i'd prefer to avoid them anyway
14:51:10 <ehird> did you not at least plan to do that
14:51:19 <nooga> MFC was an idiotic idea and we knew it
14:51:24 <ais523> haha: SCO's latest sale attempt contained a poison pill, which meant that if SCO's bankruptcy was converted to chapter 7, then the people they were selling to would get all their assets
14:51:29 <ehird> nooga: but you still said you were gonna do it
14:51:34 <ais523> somehow I doubt that will be approved
14:51:53 <nooga> i'm just a pawn ;p
14:52:10 <ais523> <IBM's lawyers> The Motion offers no reason for such a provision. Nor can one readily imagine how such a provision would benefit the estates or any reason why a purchaser in general or this Purchaser in particular would reasonably demand transfer of an asset for no additional consideration only if the cases were converted or a trustee were appointed. In fact, Mr. McBride, the Debtors' CEO, could not name a legitimate business reason for the poison pill.
14:53:22 <ais523> <IBM's lawyers> Thus, the Purchaser would pay a higher price if it is determined that the Litigated Copyrights, which the Debtors have valued so highly, and contractual rights that the Debtors claim to own are not owned by the Debtors, and consequently, not included in the Purchased Assets. The Purchaser would pay a lower price if those allegedly valuable assets are included. It does not require citation of authority to show that a purchase and sale
14:53:24 <ais523> agreement that provides for a lower price upon the transfer of higher value assets does not provide a fair sale price to the estate.
14:53:29 <ais523> those lawyers are so quotable...
15:00:46 <ehird> <IBM's lawyers> This agreement is between the International Business Machines corporation (hereafter "Licensor") and the user of IBM PhotoShare(TM) De-Luxe (hereafter "Product"), hereafter "Licensee".
15:01:03 <ais523> at least IBM know how to get their own name right
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15:09:45 <Sgeo> http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Guest_OSes What could cause a guest OS to not work?
15:11:25 <Sgeo> Supposedly, OS/2 works
15:11:33 <ehird> Sgeo: non-perfect emulation
15:12:00 <Sgeo> Hm, thoughts on SkyOS?
15:12:22 * Sgeo has one thought on Syllable: I don't think I want to trust an OS when the website is so vulnerable to simple stuff
15:12:32 <Slereah> And if I did, I probably wouldn't have thoughts
15:12:39 <Sgeo> http://www.skyos.org/?q=node
15:13:18 <Sgeo> "SkyOS development is currently halted" bleh
15:18:20 <ehird> <Sgeo> An operating system is insecure if an extremely side-project aspect of it, the site, possibly not even coded by the authors, is vulnerable to a trivial, quite-easily-missed flaw. This is because OS development is exactly the same as web development.
15:18:38 <ehird> The more you know.
15:19:47 <Sgeo> IMO, SQL injections don't deserve to be "quite easily missed"
15:19:53 <Sgeo> But I see your point
15:20:06 <ehird> The site is coded in PHP, is it not?
15:20:13 <ehird> PHP is such a kludge that consistently avoiding such things is a pain.
15:20:21 <ehird> Anyway, the rest of what I said is still valid.
15:21:25 <Sgeo> When I get my laptop back, I'm going to get VirtualBox and try a lot of OSes
15:22:46 <Sgeo> I know it's a trivial and silly thing to complain about, but I hope Syllable is themable, I can't stand the theme I see in the screenshots
15:23:05 * ais523 wonders if a £20 note is worth its weight in gold
15:28:21 <ehird> Sgeo: most OSs suck.
15:29:48 <ehird> Sgeo: http://web.syllable.org/images/screenshots/Desktop/0.6.6/SyllableDesktop-0.6.6.jpg ;; i don't see what's wrong with this theme
15:30:32 <Sgeo> I didn't see that screenshot
15:30:43 <ehird> http://web.syllable.org/images/screenshots/Desktop/0.6.6/Sonic-on-MEDNAFEN.png has it too
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15:31:01 * Sgeo was referring to the theme in http://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=180858
15:35:11 <oerjan> `wolfram weight of £20 note
15:38:09 <ehird> oerjan: try "20 pound note". i bet it'll ask whether you meant C# or G, and how on earth can a note have weight
15:38:24 <oerjan> `wolfram weight of 20 pound note
15:38:42 <ehird> oerjan: 20 pounds obviously
15:38:51 <oerjan> `wolfram mass of 20 pounds note
15:38:53 <ehird> `wolfram 20 pounds in kg
15:38:58 <ehird> `wolfram 20 pounds in kilograms
15:39:01 <HackEgo> 20 pounds in kg \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 20 lb pounds to kilograms \ Result: \ \ 9.072 kg kilograms \ Additional conversion: \ \ 9072 grams \ Comparison as mass: \ \ 0.13 \ Interpretation: \ \ 18 \ \ typical standard adult human mass \ \ 70 kg \ \ mass \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Weight w of a body
15:39:52 <nooga> `wolfram 20 pounds in beer cans
15:39:59 <HackEgo> 20 pounds in beer cans \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 20 lb pounds to volume of a U.S. beer cans \ Result: \ \ lb pounds and volume of a U.S. beer cans are not compatible. \ Unit information: \ \ unit \ lb pounds volume of a U.S. beer cans \ \ dimensions mass length \ 3 \ \ common physical quantity mass volume of
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15:41:04 <nooga> `wolfram 20 pounds in beer cans of beer
15:41:37 <nooga> `wolfram 20 pounds of steel in beer cans
15:41:53 <ehird> ais523: oh brother, canonical open sourced launchpad ... as AGPL
15:42:17 <ais523> I love AGPL, it's good at annoying BSD fanboys
15:42:19 <ehird> services and software are fundamentally different
15:42:31 <ehird> ais523: what is up with you? you rank everything based on how much it annoys people you dislike
15:42:41 <ehird> and yet say "that really annoys me" to most everything
15:42:54 <ehird> most of the things you care to comment on your rating
15:43:15 <ehird> anyway, services are fundamentally different from software (f.e. charging for a service is fine, charging for software is not)
15:43:20 <ehird> AGPL misses the mark
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15:45:29 <oerjan> "Further details of the new note and enhanced security features are explained in a leaflet that is available as part of the Bank's range of educational materials." grmbl.
15:45:38 <ehird> lol, last.fm charge 3 eur/$3/£3 a month for a subscription... but use paypal, which converts currency for you
15:45:41 <ehird> so assuming the overhead isn't too big
15:45:46 <ehird> you can always save money by paying in dollars
15:45:52 <oerjan> ais523: i cannot find the mass of it
15:46:04 <ais523> I don't know the mass either
15:46:13 <ais523> otherwise, it would be a lot easier to check
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15:49:38 <oerjan> the price of 1 gram gold is 18.56 pounds
15:51:21 <pikhq> RE: the APGL. I am not entirely sure of my opinion on it.
15:51:57 <pikhq> Also, 3€, $3, or ₤3?
15:52:04 <pikhq> UNIT CONVERSION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY
15:52:06 <ehird> well, not that £ 3
15:52:18 <ehird> anyway, the bits of a piece of software are not scarce, so selling them is wrong; the server resources and other upkeep costs of a server are scarce, so selling access to the service is okay
15:52:30 <pikhq> I slipped and hit = instead of - for my compose key.
15:52:36 <ehird> therefore, software and services are fundamentally different beasts
15:52:37 <ehird> and with that, i brb
15:52:43 <pikhq> Apparently there's a currency that uses ₤?
15:54:03 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-XoN1Ts6Wg
15:57:00 <ehird> that brb was a liie
15:58:46 <pikhq> I really like the Haskell definition of S. "liftM2 id".
15:58:53 <ehird> pikhq: You mean "ap".
15:59:11 <pikhq> Yes, that's the Haskell name for S.
16:02:28 <ais523> how do liftM and liftM2 differ?
16:02:37 <lambdabot> forall a1 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r
16:02:40 <lambdabot> forall a1 a2 r (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
16:06:04 <ehird> pikhq: btw, the 32nm SSDs are out
16:06:08 <ehird> on some sites at least
16:06:11 <ehird> not purchasable yet i don't think
16:06:15 <ehird> intel sez up to 60% price cuts possible
16:06:30 <ehird> http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=15741
16:06:46 <ehird> ... guess it got published accidentally
16:06:56 <ehird> its title while up included "[COMPLETE-EMBARGOED UNTIL 11 EST- see note]", so
16:07:26 <ais523> ehird: is it still in your cache?
16:07:36 <ehird> ais523: my iphone's, perhaps
16:07:41 <ehird> i don't really want to go poking around it, though
16:07:43 <ehird> that way lies madness
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16:53:14 <GregorR-L> http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2008/11/07/sneak-peak-the-dapper-cap-opens-tomorrow/ <-- I love me!
17:46:57 <ehird> 15:53 GregorR-L: http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2008/11/07/sneak-peak-the-dapper-cap-opens-tomorrow/ <-- I love me!
17:47:01 <ehird> You... love... me?
17:47:19 <GregorR-L> Note the striked-out correction in the article.
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17:50:19 <ehird> But haberdashery is a nicer word than "hat shop", which isn't even one.
17:51:16 <GregorR-L> It's also wrong, especially since he was pointing out that it was a more "comprehensive haberdashery" because it carried non-haberdashery-related items :P
17:52:21 <ehird> HAT SHOP IS NOT A WORD.
17:52:57 <GregorR-L> If this was German, it would be a hatschoppe
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18:05:24 * pikhq has delicious pancakes
18:06:15 * GregorR-L steals pikhq's delicious pancakes.
18:07:19 <GregorR-L> And yet, IIIIIIIIII'm eating them.
18:07:29 * GregorR-L stuffs six to eight pancakes into his gaping maw
18:08:34 <pikhq> I do believe that the mere existence of that store nearby would convince me to wear hats. :P
18:09:30 <GregorR-L> This is why Portland is better than geoIPQuery(whois(pikhq))
18:10:05 <pikhq> Middle of nowhere, Missouri.
18:10:24 <pikhq> There's not much needed to make Portland better.
18:10:41 <pikhq> The existence of, well, most anything would do it.
18:10:46 <GregorR-L> There's a reason the state's pronounced "Misery" :P
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18:12:52 <pikhq> There's not much misery to be had when you have delicious pancakes.
18:20:13 <ehird> pikhq: unless they're British pancakes.
18:20:17 <ehird> The misery is that they are not as good as US pancakes.
18:20:34 <ehird> I was just disproving your statement.
18:20:49 <GregorR-L> ... British pancakes are not US pancakes ...?
18:20:54 <pikhq> From what I understand, Scottish pancakes are also quite delish.
18:21:06 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Most countries have their own variant.
18:21:28 <GregorR-L> But how variant are we talkin' about? :P
18:22:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: Vary variant.
18:22:30 <ehird> Yeah, they're basically crepes.
18:22:45 <pikhq> Crêpes are delish.
18:22:47 <ehird> US pancakes are a lot more...
18:22:59 <ehird> Just more substantial.
18:23:01 <ehird> Also, maple syrup <3
18:23:11 <pikhq> It's a thicker batter.
18:23:16 <GregorR-L> Maple syrup is the solution to all problems.
18:23:22 <pikhq> Basically, it's Scottish pancakes done thicker.
18:23:33 <ehird> pikhq: there are substantial ingredient differences
18:23:37 <ehird> though i don't remember off the top of my head
18:23:42 <ehird> maple syrup is just so delicious
18:23:52 <pikhq> ehird: Different proportions.
18:24:11 <ehird> pikhq: no, actual different ingredients too I think
18:25:19 <pikhq> According to Wikipedia, self-raising flour, eggs, sugar and milk for Scottish, eggs, flour, milk or buttermilk, and a raising agent.
18:26:06 <GregorR-L> I like potato pancakes AKA latkas.
18:26:11 <ehird> Mrh, I'm just talking about the ones I've had.
18:26:17 <ehird> But the US ones were definitely way more delicious.
18:26:33 <ehird> Also, you can't stack UK pancakes.
18:26:37 <pikhq> Maple syrup is the solution to all problems.
18:26:39 <ehird> Therefore, USians win by default.
18:26:45 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR-L just said that :P
18:26:54 <pikhq> It bears repeating.
18:26:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: I don't think so.
18:27:24 <pikhq> OMG. The Netherlands' pancakes. Commonly served COVERED IN BACON.
18:27:32 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Awesomeness.
18:27:55 <ehird> http://www.ihop.com/ ← is that really sausage, egg, bacon, and other savory things with a US-style pancake?
18:27:56 <pikhq> I'm going to change that: bacon or maple syrup is the solution to all problems.
18:28:02 <ehird> Actually all of them look awful.
18:28:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: IHOP is the "International House of Pancakes". It's a 24-hour mostly-breakfast restaurant in the US. The "International" part refers to the variety of pancakes, not the chain.
18:28:09 <ehird> the banana macadamia nut looks okay
18:28:24 <FireFly> "[19:27:55] <ehird> http://www.ihop.com/ ← is that really sausage, egg, bacon, "
18:28:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: So, they're of the "take one basic product, and mix it with EVERYTHING ELSE" school of food.
18:29:17 <GregorR-L> ehird: Naw, they have three basic items: pancakes, waffles and french toast.
18:29:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: The basic product = pancakes.
18:29:39 <pikhq> Served with a side of eggs, bacon, and/or sausage.
18:29:44 <ehird> Mixed with everything else.
18:29:47 <ehird> http://www.ihop.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=2 ← The picture on the famous pancakes page... jesus
18:29:51 <ehird> "Butterscotch rocks pancakes"
18:29:55 <ehird> How can you people EAT that stuff
18:31:03 <ehird> US pancakes are thick
18:31:11 <ehird> although the ones i've had weren't THAT thick
18:31:17 <ehird> also it looks quite dry, the actual pancake
18:31:40 <ehird> pikhq: I really can't imagine eating... pancakes... with sausage.
18:31:41 <GregorR-L> Hahah, I probably wouldn't eat that one :P
18:31:50 <GregorR-L> ehird: srsly? It's pretty much awesomeness.
18:32:00 <HackEgo> [16]http://immaeatchu.wordpress.com/2007/03/28/casual-friday-dinners/ [17]http://blog.silive.com/weather/2007/04/should_i_wear_a_jacket.html [18]http://cuterbythehour.com/2008/05/08/guinea-pig-in-a-blanket/ [19]http://www.bouncingbabybaskets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=4 \ 2. [20]Pigs in
18:32:00 <pikhq> ehird: That's a rather normal thing.
18:32:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: that's savory
18:32:28 <ehird> the pancakes served with the sausage look... unsavory.
18:32:43 <ehird> hyuk hyuk double entrende
18:33:00 <pikhq> SUCH IS THE POWER OF DELICIOUSNESS.
18:33:20 <ehird> HAHAHAHA the menu has a "Desserts" section
18:33:36 <ehird> "After you've had your Butterscotch Rocks Pancakes, what shall we have for dessert?"
18:33:38 <pikhq> ... Someone would get desserts there?
18:33:52 <ehird> "Ooh, Crispy Banana Caramel Cheesecake!"
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18:43:44 <ehird> I'd better learn Cocoa sometime.
18:43:46 <ehird> AND NOW IS SOME TIME
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18:44:02 <ehird> IT IS AN AMOUNT OF TIME
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18:49:09 <ehird> AN AMOUNT OF CRIME
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19:12:43 * ehird updates XCode docs.
19:13:23 <ehird> Twiddle, twiddle, thumbs, thumbs.
19:17:56 <ehird> it's incredibly likely that two identical GUIDs have been generated, isn't it?
19:18:02 <ehird> not necessarily published
19:18:13 <ehird> i mean, just because of prngs and the like
19:18:52 <ais523> I thought the lengths were set high enough that even the birthday paradox wouldn't cause collisions
19:19:04 <ehird> yeah, but some PRNGs are really bad
19:19:09 <ehird> it could even be in the same system
19:19:27 <ehird> i wouldn't be surprised if a PRNG seed that repeated every N numbers was used to generate >N GUIDs in some system somewhere
19:20:16 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUID#Random_UUID_probability_of_duplicates
19:20:20 <ehird> but that assumes perfect randomness
19:20:26 <ehird> [[However, these probabilities only hold for Cryptographically secure pseudorandom number generators. These must be used to generate the values, otherwise the probability of duplicates may be significantly higher, since the statistical dispersion may be lower.]]
19:20:31 <ehird> which is totally unenforceable
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19:24:54 <pikhq_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain
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19:49:13 <ehird> [[Back when I was a student, I had Steve Jobs over for a fireside chat. When I asked my childhood hero if he would sign my Apple Extended keyboard, he looked a little surprised to see Woz’s signature already there, and then he exclaimed, “This keyboard represents everything about Apple that I hate. It’s a battleship. Why does it have all these keys? Do you use this F1 key? No.” And with his car keys he pried it right off. Alan Deutschman reported
19:49:16 <ehird> the moment in his book, culminating in Jobs’ comment: “I’m changing the world, one keyboard at a time.”]]
19:51:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: Better not invite Jobs over to your place for a fireside chat, then.
19:51:45 <ehird> Deewiant: On a pre-OS X Macintosh?
19:51:56 <ehird> It was an Apple keyboard.
19:52:05 <ais523> I don't think I use F1 very often
19:52:26 <ehird> So no, it was not PC-compatible.
19:52:47 <Deewiant> "Many are still using this keyboard through the use of ADB to USB converters."
19:52:55 <ehird> Deewiant: "Back when I was a student".
19:52:57 <ehird> It was in the 80s.
19:52:59 <ehird> When Jobs was at NeXT.
19:53:13 <ehird> Anyway, "no duh" to "What an asshole".
19:53:21 <ehird> Do you remember what happened when Apple DIDN'T have an asshole CEO?
19:53:29 <ehird> They made some of the worst computers ever.
19:54:02 <ehird> ("But ehird, they still do!" Waah waah waah :P)
19:55:01 <ehird> I want a bluetooth keyboard that uses that induction thingy for power instead of lameo replaceable batteries.
19:56:46 <fizzie> But the environment! Though I admittedly can't seem to find any recent efficiency figures for state-of-the-art inductive-coupling charging things like that touchstone.
19:57:27 <ehird> 2008: Intel reproduces Nikola Tesla's 1894 implementation and Prof. John Boys group's 1988's experiments by wirelessly powering a light bulb with 75% efficiency.[23]
19:57:34 <ehird> 1964: William C. Brown demonstrated on CBS News with Walter Cronkite a microwave-powered model helicopter that received all the power needed for flight from a microwave beam. Between 1969 and 1975 Brown was technical director of a JPL Raytheon program that beamed 30 kW over a distance of 1 mile at 84% efficiency.
19:58:12 <ehird> fizzie: WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW
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20:01:17 <fizzie> Well, you've got to compare that stuff to a wire. :p
20:01:48 <ehird> fizzie: beats batteries, surely
20:02:14 <fizzie> Er, wasn't that thing used to charge a battery?
20:02:31 <fizzie> Okay, not in the keyboard thing.
20:03:47 <ehird> fizzie: I mean, non-rechargable batteries.
20:04:09 * ehird notes that his wireless keyboard is heavier than lightweight notebooks
20:04:21 <fizzie> Well, yes, I guess it must beat that.
20:05:12 <fizzie> My GPS device eats rechargeable AAA batteries real fast, which is a shame. (There are lots-of-mAh's AA-size batteries, but the AAA ones seem to be quite a leap downwards.)
20:05:54 * ehird makes a new Apple ID to download documentation and stuff.
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20:06:09 <ehird> Hey, there's a new XCode.
20:06:13 <ehird> I should get that.
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20:14:11 <fizzie> Speaking of GPS, I geotaggered some (pretty darn boring!) photos from the vicinity: http://zem.fi/g2map/index.cgi/Travel/2009/Leppavaara2 (oh, and all detailed picture descriptions are quoted from a Finnish booklet)
20:15:17 <ehird> I need a higher resolution.
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20:16:01 <fizzie> Just in life, general; or the thumbnails; or the pictures themselves?
20:16:24 <ehird> *display; monitor is such a silly term.
20:16:51 <fizzie> It's called a "monitor" because the government is using it to monitor what you do.
20:17:09 <fizzie> They can see through those things; I read it from the Internet.
20:17:22 <ehird> fizzie: is your name Orwell?
20:20:13 <ehird> ExpanDrive would work better if applications didn't assume the filesystem is instant.
20:20:36 <ehird> Also, lazier; you don't want to traverse an entire FTP tree just to display the sidebar tree.
20:20:44 <ehird> (Same applies to a large local directory, too…)
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20:46:26 <pikhq> Next person to implement TCP on UDP gets shot.
20:47:34 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
20:47:43 <GregorR-L> It was that GregorR-L_ character! The underscore makes him EVIL!
20:49:23 <fizzie> It's like a goatee in ASCII.
20:52:00 <ehird> A screencast with a text-to-speech narrator.
20:52:54 <ehird> What new hell is dissing
21:03:40 <ehird> Wow, all my applications assume the filesystem is instant.
21:03:49 <ehird> (My = that I have, so far.)
21:04:14 <ehird> Or rather: they may expect finite throughput, but they also expect zero or low latency
21:05:19 <ais523> NetHack doesn't assume an instant filesystem
21:05:35 <ais523> there's an option that tells it you're running on a floppy disk and disk access will be rather slow
21:06:18 <ehird> ais523: not as slow as the interwebs
21:06:26 <ehird> this is why leaky abstractions suck; networked filesystems, RPC, etc
21:06:50 * ehird attempts to watch a really dated introduction to python video over ibiblio ftp
21:07:46 * ehird gets disconnected.
21:08:13 * ehird drags it to the local disk instead
21:08:48 * ais523 wonders who invented dragging
21:09:07 <ais523> I know Windows 3.1 came with a mouse tutorial
21:09:14 <ais523> which explained how to use a mouse
21:10:15 <ehird> ais523: either Xerox PARC the Macintosh
21:10:30 <ehird> the Macintosh was basically ripped from PARC plus improvements
21:10:36 <ehird> and the original Macintosh had drag-and-drop
21:10:46 <ehird> and PARC is the only desktop-metaphor system predating it
21:10:49 <ehird> so it's one of the two
21:11:11 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:11:21 <ehird> heh this introducing python video is 200 meg
21:11:44 -!- nooga has joined.
21:12:48 <ehird> Zero KB of 237.5 MB!
21:13:26 <ehird> Explaining creativity: the science of human innovation - Google Books Result
21:13:26 <ehird> by Robert Keith Sawyer - 2006 - Psychology - 354 pages
21:13:28 <ehird> Lisa (1983) or Ed Anson (1980) or Xerox PARC (1982) Menu bar 1983 Lisa Apple ... Xerox PARC Drag and drop movement 1984 (?) Jeff Raskin Macintosh of icons ...
21:13:31 <ehird> books.google.com/books?isbn=0195161645... -
21:13:33 <ehird> Folklore.org: Macintosh Stories: On Xerox, Apple and Progress
21:13:35 <ehird> Drag-and- drop file manipulation came from the Mac group, along with many other ... I have great respect for the amazing computer scientists at Xerox PARC, ...
21:13:38 <ehird> ais523: the internet is divided!
21:13:53 <ehird> ais523: "drag and drop movement of icons" was invented for the Macintosh
21:14:05 <ehird> (the former wasn't saying PARC invented it)
21:14:09 <ehird> (there was a newline in between)
21:14:32 <ehird> "Smalltalk has no Finder, and no need for one, really. Drag-and- drop file manipulation came from the Mac group, along with many other unique concepts: resources and dual-fork files for storing layout and international information apart from code; definition procedures; drag-and-drop system extension and configuration; types and creators for files; direct manipulation editing of document, disk, and application names; redundant typed data for the clipboar
21:14:34 <ehird> d; multiple views of the file system; desk accessories; and control panels, among others."
21:14:45 <ehird> ais523: so, the Macintosh; probably by Jef Raskin
21:18:43 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJhG-uds0-o has the win3.1 mouse tutorial; I remember that; it's the awesome, it's like this skill test "click here" "click there" "wow!"
21:19:00 <fizzie> Oh, and UI elements that fly around.
21:19:19 <ehird> sounds like interference
21:19:32 <fizzie> Don't know, didn't listen to the sound track.
21:20:15 <ehird> speaking of Macintosh/Windows, here's an ad for Windows 95… from Apple: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/ads/magazines/windows/win95-apple
21:20:39 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:22:13 <ehird> pikhq: …, you mean.
21:22:47 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:23:18 -!- nooga has joined.
21:24:06 <pikhq> Apple made an IBM-compatible Mac?
21:24:15 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:24:15 <pikhq> That sounds hacktastic.
21:25:52 <ehird> pikhq: I think it was just a PC stuck to a Mac.
21:25:59 <ehird> I don't think Jobs was at Apple in 1995.
21:26:18 <ehird> He wasn't there to be an asshole when the PR droids said "let's make a PC-compatible Mac". :-)
21:27:03 <GregorR> OK, Fluxbox is effing up on me.
21:27:13 <pikhq> ehird: Right, he wasn't.
21:27:18 <GregorR> Why is the systray slowly taking over the taskbar area.
21:27:33 <pikhq> Jobs couldn't say "For crissake, *NO*. Or at the very least, DO IT RIGHT."
21:28:13 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
21:33:11 <ehird> pikhq: Spit him back out!
21:37:11 -!- ehird has changed nick to GregorR.
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21:44:54 <pikhq> Huh. I could, in fact, use Plan 9 for everything; Plan 9 has an implementation of the Linux syscall interface.
21:45:32 <GregorR> pikhq: That's like saying you could use an operating system that only has a VM application for everything.
21:45:35 -!- GregorR_ has joined.
21:45:43 <GregorR> Yes, technically true; but it won't integrate at all.
21:45:52 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.).
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21:46:14 <GregorR> So yeah, why don't people use XFCE?
21:46:33 <pikhq> Because it does too much.
21:46:55 <GregorR> Again I say, moving from KDE4 :P
21:47:00 <ehird> it's like gnome except with far too many settings and it's less orthogonal
21:47:05 <ehird> and less aesthetically pleasing
21:47:12 <ehird> pikhq: seriously, there's no point using plan 9 if you don't go all the way
21:47:13 <pikhq> It's Plan 9/Linux.
21:47:19 <ehird> you need a top-to-bottom system to get the benefits
21:47:23 <pikhq> ehird: I'm just going "huh".
21:47:30 <ehird> The authors are Plan 9 newbies.
21:48:23 * pikhq notes that Glendix can run unmodified Plan 9 binaries. WHY ARE THEY DOING THAT.
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21:51:47 <GregorR> KDE4 is like KDE3 minus all the configurability.
21:52:07 <GregorR> Gnome is like some terrifying hybrid of Mac OS X and Windows, minus even their meager configurability.
21:52:17 <GregorR> XFCE is like Gnome plus configurability.
21:52:21 <GregorR> Gregor like configurability
22:16:38 <nooga> pikhq: isn't plan9 quite.... dead?
22:51:27 <ehird> but there's a web interface
22:51:29 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/
22:51:35 <ehird> and you can download a nightly live/install CD
22:51:43 <nooga> does it run on supercomputers?
22:51:46 <ehird> It contains source of the kernel, libraries, and commands for all supported architectures.
22:51:54 <ehird> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/blue_gene/
22:52:28 <ehird> dunno if they've done any real computation on it, but.
22:53:20 <pikhq> nooga: It's designed almost like as if they wanted it to run on clusters.
22:53:28 <ehird> pikhq: they did, originally
22:53:31 <ehird> that's why cpu servers exist
22:53:31 <nooga> does acme support syntax highlighting ?
22:53:36 <pikhq> Oh, right. That's why.
22:53:39 <ehird> and this is by design
22:53:57 <ehird> pikhq: including code.
22:53:58 <ehird> nooga: because it is not *needed*
22:54:03 <nooga> how to edit code under plan9?
22:54:05 <ehird> and what is not needed must be omitted
22:54:06 <pikhq> That's all it does, and it strives to do it simply and well.
22:54:15 <ehird> sam is like ed with a view of the file
22:54:17 <ehird> acme is mouse-based
22:54:27 <nooga> why it's not needed?
22:54:44 <pikhq> ... For the obvious reason that it's not?
22:54:48 <ehird> nooga: don't you have eyes with which to read code? If it's complex enough that you can't differentiate what's happening, the philosophy says
22:54:52 <ehird> then you should simplify it
22:55:03 <nooga> why does plan9 gui has 3 colors, we have terminals that support 16M
22:55:05 <ehird> Similarly, no automatic indentation; it is not needed if you keep your functions short and shallow.
22:55:14 <ehird> nooga: They are simple and soothing.
22:55:19 <ehird> If you want a fireworks show, go find one.
22:55:27 <ehird> (They were specifically selected to be soothing on the eyes.)
22:55:28 <nooga> rather harsh and annoying
22:55:36 <ehird> They're soft colours.
22:55:37 <nooga> aliased text GROSSSSSSSS
22:55:40 <ehird> Also, there's more than 3 colours.
22:55:48 <ehird> nooga: So you don't like Plan 9's GUI.
22:55:56 <ehird> I'd like antialiased text too, but it's not that important.
22:56:10 <pikhq> nooga: Plan 9 is basically taking the UNIX philosophy and applying it everywhere.
22:56:13 <nooga> ehird: and tell me that you run plan9 on your mac
22:56:25 <ehird> nooga: I don't have a need for Plan 9 right now, so I don't have it installed.
22:56:34 <ehird> If I wanted to play with it, I'd install it on a USB stick or something.
22:56:42 <nooga> will you need plan9 in future?
22:56:52 <ehird> Why's that relevant?
22:56:56 <ehird> But I probably won't _need_, no.
22:57:08 <nooga> ehird: nooga: because it is not *needed*
22:57:26 <ehird> pikhq: nooga has just reached a new height of idiocy.
22:57:52 <ehird> nooga: I was expressing the minimalist ideology.
22:57:59 <ehird> if you don't use plan 9 you need to use something else
22:58:03 <pikhq> nooga: You're debating about whether things are needed in a room devoted to pointless programming languages.
22:58:09 <ehird> to get things done reasonably, there's a minimum complexity level
22:58:17 <ehird> plan 9 is pretty much there
22:58:22 <ehird> if you don't use plan 9
22:58:23 <ehird> that's LESS simple
22:58:28 <ehird> because you use something more complex
22:58:45 <ehird> a simpler OS could still be more complex; the plan 9 community is quite large, so that saves you time, simplifying your work
22:58:49 <nooga> but potentially you can build complex structures using really basic ones
22:59:01 <ehird> Yes; you could also build a cathedral out of lego.
22:59:09 <ehird> If you really have that much time to waste.
22:59:15 <pikhq> nooga: Yes; welcome to UNIX and functional programming.
22:59:46 <nooga> is there a ghc compiled for plan9 ?
22:59:56 <ehird> nooga: Yes, and if you use it you miss the point.
23:00:22 <ehird> <nooga> Why isn't Plan 9 exactly like OS X?
23:00:34 <nooga> that's not my poin
23:00:45 <ehird> what is your point?
23:01:11 <nooga> *for what one should use plan9*
23:01:26 <ehird> nooga: what should you use Linux for?
23:01:30 <ehird> <nooga> Um... well... things...
23:01:39 <ehird> <nooga> You know, like... tasks... programs...
23:01:46 <ehird> <nooga> Operating on, uhh, data, it's good at that.
23:02:00 <ehird> <nooga> And... executing... multiple things? Like, at once.
23:02:03 <ehird> <nooga> Linux is good at that.
23:02:10 <nooga> using complex systems built using less complex systems built using .... built using quite basic elements
23:02:47 <ehird> pikhq: Fun project: Build a Beowulf cluster using machines and parts strictly older than 1997.
23:02:58 <pikhq> ehird: Trivial, but fun.
23:02:58 <ehird> Make it competitive with modern few-node servers.
23:03:03 <ehird> pikhq: See next line.
23:03:07 <nooga> ehird: been done by my roommate
23:03:26 <pikhq> Except for exceptionally data-parallel tasks.
23:03:30 <GregorR> We as computer scientists are not good enough at parallelization for that to be feasible.
23:03:38 <ehird> pikhq: uhh, that's what you do on beowulf clusters
23:03:51 <ehird> you don't buy a beowulf cluster to run printf("Hello, "); printf("world!
23:03:59 <pikhq> Just a matter of getting sufficient systems.
23:04:17 <ehird> Yes, but without spending more than said server.
23:04:18 <pikhq> ... And a power plant; that's a lot of fekking systems.
23:04:21 <nooga> i invented and implemented little parallel computing system ... but then i discovered that nazi BOINC which is almost exactly the same
23:04:35 <ehird> You have to be crafty, use really good software, get really expensive workstations for them, and find someone with a huge inventory of 'em.
23:04:57 <pikhq> Since you said "older than '97", can do. Old PCs can be had on the cheap.
23:05:14 <pikhq> The switches necessary may be harder to come by.
23:05:25 <pikhq> Might just use some old PCs with old network cards for that.
23:05:49 <pikhq> I doubt that actaully running the thing would be any cheaper, though.
23:05:59 <pikhq> That's a lot of systems, and a lot of freaking power.
23:06:01 <nooga> one guy from my university tried to run parallel programs on a single board filled with ARMs and memory controllers
23:06:18 <ehird> what did a powerful 1996 workstation suck up
23:06:36 <nooga> ehird: do you pay your bills?
23:06:44 <pikhq> Sure, and you'll need several of them to compete with a modern server.
23:06:53 <ehird> nooga: I'm 13, take a guess; but that's irrelevant, of course this isn't practical.
23:06:53 <nooga> oh right, you're 13
23:06:57 <ehird> It's called relatively practical.
23:07:03 <pikhq> Which probably uses 400W or some such.
23:07:16 <ehird> pikhq: Nah. A decent gaming machine uses 400W.
23:07:19 <pikhq> But anyways, sure, you could do it.
23:07:22 <ehird> (Core i7, Radeon 4850)
23:07:31 <nooga> dry your hair and burn toasts 24h
23:07:40 <nooga> and face your parents
23:07:41 <ehird> pikhq: A dual-processor server, ehh, 300 watts.
23:07:46 <ehird> But that's more powerful
23:07:52 <ehird> <nooga> HURR IM STEREOTYPE MAN
23:08:04 <ehird> nooga: You're Polish therefore you're unproductive, don't know English and are also stupid.
23:08:09 <ehird> Wait, those might be true. OHH SNAP
23:08:11 <nooga> HURR IM MONOTYPE MAN
23:08:24 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, 100 x powerful 1996 workstation = 30,000 watts.
23:08:29 <ehird> Admittedly, not exactly cheap.
23:08:36 <ehird> But a lot of beowulf clusters prolly use about that much.
23:10:23 <nooga> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=polak&defid=145877
23:10:48 <nooga> (probably written by polak)
23:12:06 <ehird> SOME POINTS THAT SHOW HOW GREAT IT IS TO BE POLISH ||
23:12:13 <ehird> ↑ Being a Catholic is so awesome.
23:14:12 <nooga> I AM NOT!@?@>@{@#!P?!"!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111
23:14:24 <ehird> "No matter what they try, they become good at it ( perfectionists)"
23:14:33 <ehird> Even if you can't see them wearing a cross, they are wearing it in their heart
23:14:38 <ehird> AND THEY'RE NAILED TO IT
23:14:51 <ehird> nooga: You, learning English, become good at it perfectionist no :P
23:15:05 <ehird> nooga: half way down the list
23:15:06 <ehird> "They aren't show-offs."
23:15:14 <ehird> actually one of the last ones
23:18:07 <ehird> If you call a Polak an idiot - this is the most stupid thing you can say.
23:18:10 <ehird> nooga: you're an idiot
23:18:20 <ehird> nooga: you've called yourself an idiot
23:18:23 <ehird> which is the most stupid thing you can do
23:18:52 <nooga> printed and nailed to the wall upon my desk: "ehird: I'm an idiot now."
23:19:21 <ehird> nooga: don't stop printin'!
23:19:55 <nooga> the printer started to print itself
23:20:11 <evenant> smoeone's working on that actually
23:20:11 <ehird> RepRap is obsolete.
23:20:42 <nooga> i should divide by 0 now
23:20:49 <evenant> why is reprap obsolete btw?
23:20:56 <nooga> maybe it will stop it
23:21:13 <ehird> evenant: Because nooga's printer printed itself.
23:21:16 <pikhq> evenant: Printer printing itself!
23:21:23 <ehird> It can self-replicate totally; RepRap cannot yet.
23:21:32 <nooga> i can youtube that
23:21:42 <ehird> nooga: quick, get the new one to print another
23:21:48 <nooga> oh dear, out of batteries for my camera that films itself
23:22:03 <pikhq> While the old one's printing itself.
23:22:38 <evenant> i can't tell if this is a joke or not
23:23:11 <ehird> nooga: just print some new batteries
23:23:28 <ehird> evenant: "My body's wasted, but my mind is on fire" doesn't it usually go the other way around
23:24:45 <nooga> i'm Polish, i don't know what is joke, right? i drink vodka, steal cars and kill my time as a construction worker in germany
23:24:47 <evenant> oh right, it's in my whois still
23:25:02 <ehird> the google gives nothing
23:25:05 <ehird> maybe you miswordified it
23:25:07 <evenant> i thought it was a quote for some reason
23:27:57 <evenant> scuse me it's brain not mind wat
23:28:11 <evenant> http://www.metal-archives.com/viewlyrics.php?id=159672
23:28:14 <evenant> i will change that immediately!
23:28:35 <ehird> so not only is your body wasted
23:28:38 <ehird> your mind organ is on fire
23:28:42 <ehird> isn't that a bit redundant
23:29:20 <evenant> the song doesn't have to make sense for me to enjoy it
23:31:26 <nooga> DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARN!
23:31:37 <nooga> ]obj-c does not support operator overloading
23:33:59 <ehird> because there are no operators on objects.
23:34:09 <ehird> there's also the stupid obj.accessor, but that's just sugar.
23:34:12 <ehird> a + b is just C a + b
23:34:19 <ehird> it doesn't make sense to want an overload
23:34:39 <nooga> i still don't think in terms of messages
23:34:49 <ehird> are you using accessors?
23:34:57 <ehird> i'd stay off them until you're thinking in messages
23:34:59 <ehird> accessor syntax is stoopid
23:35:16 <ehird> an object is just a pointer that has some fun bracket magic
23:35:21 <ehird> the actual value is opaque and useless
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23:40:35 <pikhq> nooga: Unless it's written with Objective-C specific syntax, then it is just like C.
23:41:30 <ehird> There aren't enough public FTP servers to browse through.
23:42:33 <ehird> I can set one up here.
23:43:29 <ehird> System Preferences → Sharing → File Sharing → Tick → Options → Enable "Share files and folders using FTP"
23:43:37 <ehird> (Other options are Apple's AFP and SMB. Yes, that Samba. Built in.)
23:43:44 <ehird> Gotta love integration.
23:44:32 <ehird> And voila! I am connected to my home folder on localhost via FTP.
23:44:45 <ehird> It's, uh, rather fast? :P
23:48:52 <ehird> There's a tiling WM for OS X Aqua.
23:48:55 <ehird> http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/sizeup/
23:50:54 <ehird> <Screen Sharing> You can not share your own computer.
23:54:16 <ehird> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3522 apollo 11 code
23:54:40 <ehird> TCBANKCALL# TEMPORARY, I HOPE HOPE HOPE
23:54:42 <ehird> CADRSTOPRATE# TEMPORARY, I HOPE HOPE HOPE
23:54:54 <ehird> It's an architecture similar to the original Lisp implementation's!
23:55:11 <ehird> That is, similar to the one that the original Lisp was implemented on.
23:58:46 <ehird> GAINBRAK,1 # NUMERO MYSTERIOSO
23:59:50 <ehird> pikhq: are you sure it was just 2KB of program memory?
23:59:53 <ehird> just the guidance system looks longer
23:59:56 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/trunk/Luminary099/LUNAR_LANDING_GUIDANCE_EQUATIONS.s?r=258#666
00:00:00 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/trunk/Luminary099/LUNAR_LANDING_GUIDANCE_EQUATIONS.s
00:00:10 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/trunk/Luminary099/LUNAR_LANDING_GUIDANCE_EQUATIONS.s?r=258
00:01:35 <pikhq> I am so glad I have higher level languages.
00:04:00 <nooga> i don't believe the comments are real
00:04:13 <ehird> i don't believe that unicorns don't exist
00:04:37 <ehird> nooga: get the images from http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/
00:06:38 <ehird> admittedly i can't find where they are
00:06:49 <nooga> anyway it must've been cool to interface a spaceship
00:07:00 <ehird> more like fucking scary
00:07:41 <ehird> gotta get it totally right, everyone in the world is watching, and if you screw up, you've killed 3 highly intelligent cultural icons and ruined the dream of the fulfillment of JFK's wish: the single biggest accomplishment of humanity to date
00:13:16 <nooga> brobably that's why ADA was created
00:13:33 <ehird> and Ada doesn't help you write algorithms that work
00:13:40 <ehird> it just stops stupid semantic errors
00:13:42 <ehird> as opposed to logical ones
00:15:33 <ehird> fungot: Further our inevitable doom.
00:15:33 <fungot> ehird: ( e) if there were more than one order, the clerk of the
00:15:35 <ehird> fungot: Further our inevitable doom.
00:20:02 <nooga> heard of Clojure ?
00:23:27 <nooga> but it's less awkward than erlang
00:24:01 <ehird> Uhh, if you're on crack.
00:26:05 <pikhq> Uh, there's nothing particularly awkward about Erlang.
00:26:52 <pikhq> Shame that its type system isn't that complex.
00:27:24 <nooga> i don't know erlang but it seems awkward
00:27:32 <ehird> what a stupid metric
00:27:45 <pikhq> Compared to sexps?
00:27:46 <ehird> i'll tell you what's awkward
00:27:59 <ehird> clojure is a lisp without the lisp, merely a gutted shell on top of the oh-so-hateful JVM
00:28:10 <ehird> its primitives suck, its immutability isn't handled well, making it awkward
00:28:15 <ehird> and it uses java threads for concurrency
00:28:21 <ehird> thus making it useless for massive concurrenccy
00:28:31 <ehird> …so we get all these compromises for no reward
00:28:35 <ehird> on a horrible platform
00:28:41 <ehird> sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
00:29:10 <pikhq> Except for compiling to a common bytecode. ... Which Haskell can do without the compromises.
00:29:25 <pikhq> (someone made a Haskell->JVM compiler)
00:29:36 <ehird> and is unmaintained
00:29:41 <ehird> and also has terrible performance
00:29:46 <ehird> because it generates awful code
00:29:49 <ehird> and just yeah don't even go there
00:29:58 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it's not like JVM is meant as a general-purpose bytecode.
00:30:16 <pikhq> It's suitable for Java, and a few other languages manage to work with it.
00:33:01 <nooga> java and jvm sucks
00:33:05 <ehird> fast turnaround there
00:33:37 <nooga> did i say that clojure is cool and erlang is crap?
00:33:54 <nooga> i've said that clojure sucks but it's less awkward than erlang
00:34:07 <ehird> clojure is pretty much the worst new language
00:34:24 <pikhq> Erlang is not very awkward.
00:34:43 <nooga> okay, it has an awkward name
00:34:51 <pikhq> Weird-ass psuedo-sexps, that's awkward.
00:35:35 <ehird> Erlang is very Sveedish.
00:36:05 <nooga> i want a language that lets me write program as if it were written for a single computer and then run it on a multiple nodes as a raw machine code !
00:36:25 <pikhq> Erlang's the closest to that.
00:37:12 <ehird> nooga: what you ask for is impossible
00:37:21 <ehird> automatic parallelization has to figure out what options are significant and which aren't
00:37:24 <nooga> not on a level of language
00:37:29 <ehird> otherwise you parallelize everything and the overhead breaks it down
00:37:34 <ehird> you have to specify
00:37:36 <ehird> there's no free lunch
00:37:47 <ehird> we just need languages that express concurrency more fluently
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00:39:03 <pikhq> ehird: Haskell and Erlang seem to be doing a decent job at that.
00:39:10 <nooga> i was thinking out loud
00:39:12 <ehird> you need a total restating
00:39:50 <pikhq> What, are you not even happy with STM?
00:39:57 <ehird> pikhq: that's about concurrent state
00:40:00 <ehird> an idea just popped into my head!
00:40:06 <ehird> very colourless and green
00:40:09 <ehird> it's sleeping furiously atm
00:40:25 <ehird> but i think i can represent distributed computation … thingies as objects that … thingy
00:40:38 <ehird> but the imagery was nice!
00:40:48 <pikhq> foo `par` (bar `seq` baz foo bar)
00:41:11 <ehird> pikhq: i get you're a haskell fanboy but it's not a panacea
00:41:48 <pikhq> IF HASKELL IS NOT THE RIGHT SOLUTION ITS NOT WORTH DOING
00:42:08 <ehird> What about its not worth doing?
00:42:22 <ehird> Alternatively: Your wrong bitch.
00:46:28 <nooga> ehird: very colourless and green << synesthesis ?
00:46:43 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously
00:47:35 <nooga> chomsky is completely wrong
00:48:28 <nooga> people will automatically find meaning in any phrase
00:49:54 <nooga> you can't compose a phrase completely without meaning
00:50:36 <ehird> nooga: monogamous aardvark tetragrammaton ovulating invisible pink unicorns on the stair that is not a stair that is a flower that is a train that is that which is not that which can be described as it where it is not itself where itself refers to the whole whole and it is it but it is not it
00:50:53 <ehird> that latter part is so easy to find meaning in
00:52:24 <nooga> nonsensical but still, lovers of modern poetry would find something about dying whales here
00:52:40 <ehird> While the meaninglessness of the sentence is often considered fundamental to Chomsky's point, Chomsky was relying upon this only to ensure that the sentences had never been spoken before. Thus, even if one were to prescribe a likely and reasonable meaning to the sentence, the grammaticalness of the sentences are concrete despite being the first time a person had ever heard that phrase, or those words in such a combination.
00:52:43 <ehird> In conclusion, you fail.
00:57:45 <pikhq> Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
00:57:53 <ehird> that's what we're "discussing"
00:58:11 <pikhq> I was making an observation concerning ideas.
00:59:36 * nooga is reading about C under plan9
00:59:45 <nooga> and.... LOOOOKS KEWL!
01:00:13 <ehird> well, you have some taste at least
01:09:48 <ehird> The mouse thing? No.
01:10:14 <ehird> This is an informal reference manual for the concurrent language Newsqueak.
01:10:14 <ehird> Newsqueak’s roots are in Squeak, a language designed a few years ago by Luca Cardelli andRob Pike to illustrate concurrent solutions to problems in user interface design.
01:10:19 <ehird> It's not Smalltalk at all.
01:10:32 <ehird> This looks quite ordinary.
01:12:09 <nooga> channels are pretty good idea
01:24:04 <nooga> they had Unix like OS called CROOK on MERA 400 computers at my university in 70's
01:24:31 <nooga> and i've got perforated tapes from that computer
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03:44:11 <Warrigal> Ōr shoold Ī dōō sumthing ūsf@l insted?
03:44:41 <GregorR> I eat macrons for breakfast.
03:44:56 <Warrigal> Līk figūring owt how tō tīp ə.
03:45:34 * Warrigal səlects it and plans tō rīght-click.
04:09:04 <GregorR> "You're the banana king, Charlie!" "No, I'm not! That doesn't even make sense!"
04:32:28 <pikhq> FILE *file = !fopen "filename" r!;!fprintf file "Hello, world\!\n"!;!fclose file!; // Let there be a nice C macro system.
04:38:06 <pikhq> Too much boilerplate. Needs moar metaprogramming.
04:38:45 <pikhq> (note: fopen, fprintf, and fclose all can result in errors.)
04:47:54 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder why you're not allowed to cast void pointers to function pointers
04:49:01 <GregorR> Because on certain platforms, data pointers and code pointers aren't the same length.
04:49:19 <GregorR> e.g. 16-bit DOS with code all in the lower 16-bit and data in 24-bit space.
04:50:07 <pikhq> GregorR: Actually, on DOS, there's more than one type of data pointer.
04:50:16 <pikhq> Near pointers are 16-bit, far are 24-bit.
04:50:58 <GregorR> Sure, but with the right compiler flags, void * is always 32-bit, and void (*)() is always 16-bit.
04:51:06 <GregorR> (Arguably, s/right/wrong/ :P)
04:51:41 <bsmntbombdood> i can't remember, are you allowed to cast between function pointers?
04:52:17 <GregorR> Not implicitly, obviously.
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10:55:38 <ehird> 03:51 bsmntbombdood: i can't remember, are you allowed to cast between function pointers?
10:55:50 <ehird> presumably not between (fptr →) and (ptr →)
11:02:10 <Deewiant> Not even between two function pointer types
11:02:27 <Deewiant> Or you can cast, but you can't call it unless you cast back
11:02:41 <Deewiant> (Well, you can, but it's undefined.)
11:06:16 <fizzie> It *would* be quite a surprise if it actually were legal to call a function with the wrong type of pointer.
11:07:03 <Deewiant> Well, the type might actually be right, but if you originally got it as a wrong type it's still not allowed.
11:08:16 <fizzie> But you just said you can call it when you cast it back.
11:09:10 <Deewiant> fizzie: Only if it started life as the right type.
11:09:34 <Deewiant> It might be that the case I'm thinking off is actually impossible.
11:09:39 <fizzie> How can you "start life" as the wrong type? I mean, you get a function pointer by taking the address of a function, and that's the right type.
11:10:27 <fizzie> I have indeed been under the impression that things are very difficult with function pointers, what with there being no void-pointer style thing there.
11:11:17 <Deewiant> wrongtype fp = (wrongtype)&foo; (*(righttype)(fp))();
11:11:26 <Deewiant> But that works since &foo is righttype.
11:11:39 <fizzie> Right, http://c-faq.com/ptrs/generic.html
11:11:53 <fizzie> "It is guaranteed, however, that all function pointers can be interconverted, as long as they are converted back to an appropriate type before calling."
11:21:19 <ehird> i cast function pointers quite often
11:24:39 <Deewiant> Welcome to the club of every C programmer ever: your code may not be portable
11:41:27 <ehird> "The Ace clones from Franklin Computer Corporation are the best known and had the most lasting impact, as Franklin copied Apple's ROMs and software and freely admitted to doing so. Franklin's argument: a computer's ROM was simply a pattern of switches locked into a fixed position, and one cannot copyright a pattern of switches. Apple fought Franklin in court for about five years to get its clones off the market, and was ultimately successful when a court
11:41:30 <ehird> ruled that software stored in ROM was in fact copyrightable in United States. (See Apple Computer, Inc. v. Franklin Computer Corp.)"
11:41:40 <ehird> Just go and create software copyright why don'tcha
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12:06:00 <nooga> i feel urge to write a thin layer on top of C to enable defining operators
12:06:24 <nooga> and array literals
12:07:34 <ehird> nooga: i want to shoot people who refuse to get into a language and instead just write shit that they already know in it.
12:07:43 <ehird> be warned, for i have an invisible gun.
12:08:33 <ehird> but not decently, as shown
12:09:05 <nooga> try to write vector equations using function calls
12:09:13 <nooga> looks ugly, hard to debug
12:09:19 <ehird> stop using c for writing such things.
12:10:05 <ehird> nooga: Fuck. This. Impression. C is not always fast. C is not the only fast language. And if you're doing v2 = (v0 + v1) / blah blah blah, it's going to entirely consist of function calls.
12:10:09 <ehird> To functions… implemented in C.
12:10:15 <ehird> It would be incredibly difficult to make that slow.
12:12:01 <nooga> i just need a specialized preprocessor to make my program look nicer
12:13:01 <ehird> i'm glad i'll never touch any of your code
12:13:47 <nooga> why do you negate all my ideas
12:14:04 <ehird> you have a great propensity for bad ones
12:15:03 <ehird> i also have opinions like "2 + 2 = 4", "killing people is bad" etc
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12:21:53 <ehird> Slereah: what is your point?
12:22:09 <ehird> i could be totally misunderstanding the axioms
12:22:18 <ehird> and hallucinating everyone else who says that 2 + 2 = 4
12:22:28 <Slereah> Well, while they're abstract concepts, you know what I mean
12:22:44 <ehird> Slereah: who says i'm not mentally insane
12:22:51 <ehird> maybe everyone's been saying 2 + 2 = 5
12:22:55 <ehird> maybe there's a proof of it
12:23:00 <ehird> maybe my display is actually a toaster!
12:23:10 <ehird> (ok, so this is a bit of a slippery slope because everything becomes an opinion.)
12:23:15 <Slereah> Well yeah, but with that kind of attitude, everything is "an opinion"
12:23:25 <Slereah> I'm not even sure opinion would be the correct word here
12:23:47 <ehird> i started listing just factual stuff, but then decided he wouldn't understand if i didn't put in a generally accepted opinion
12:24:12 <Slereah> Dude, you put two things in here
12:24:19 <Slereah> Don't say "I started listing"
12:30:42 <nooga> ehird: i can't imagine how my idea can be bad, we're on channel that's about mainly useless and twisted programming languages that break RULES
12:30:58 <ehird> because we don't put esolangs in Actual Real Systems.
12:31:03 <ehird> we're here specifically BECAUSE we never would.
12:31:13 <ehird> (ok, maybe AnMaster would, but nobody sane would tell him to program something)
12:31:53 <nooga> okay, and if i say that i'd like to create a language with pleasant syntax that resembles C and compiles to C ?
12:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I might joke about doing that, not sure if I actually would.
12:32:10 <ehird> i think you're missing the point.
12:32:27 <nooga> C has pleasant syntax
12:32:43 <AnMaster> what are you comparing C to then? PHP?
12:33:21 <ehird> ADD SYNTACTIC EXTENSIONS TO C GIVING NOOGA'S FUCKED UP CHIMERA LANGUAGE
12:33:22 <AnMaster> yes there are worse languages than C. Lots of worse ones. But calling the C syntax "pleasant" seems backwards.
12:34:29 <ehird> AnMaster: that second syntax could be said as just "Lots."
12:34:37 <ehird> also, i don't think "worse" works there
12:34:49 <ehird> that's why it sounded awkward
12:35:06 <ehird> alsothereshouldbeacommaafter"yes"</pedant>
12:35:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: that second syntax could be said as just "Lots." <-- err, which second one? I did holistic reading of the scrollback when I was highlighted.
12:35:18 <ehird> 12:33 AnMaster: yes there are worse languages than C. Lots of worse ones. But calling the C syntax "pleasant" seems backwards.
12:35:25 <ehird> yes, there are worse languages than C. Many. But calling the C syntax "pleasant" seems backwards.
12:35:36 <ehird> not sure how to make it sound OK with the second sentence still being redundant
12:37:04 <nooga> ok, haskell syntax is pleasand
12:38:22 <AnMaster> a short list of "worse syntax than C": PHP, COBOL, AppleScript, C++, BASIC
12:41:48 <ehird> ehh i'm sorta tempted to defend applescript because for simple OS scripting tasks it writes more smoothly than a sigiled up syntax imo, butttttttttttt i don't exactly -like- the syntax
12:44:05 <nooga> joy has pleasant syntax
13:23:00 <ehird> A proposed slogan for David Icke: Not Rapture— Raptor!
13:27:54 <ehird> On a "REPTILIAN SHAPESHIFT OH GOD VIDEO", YouTube:
13:27:55 <ehird> ccon69 (4 days ago) +1 Reply | Spam
13:27:55 <ehird> You can't do this kind of analysis with YouTube quality video and to even try show's you have limited intellect.
13:27:58 <ehird> gillamrl (4 days ago) Reply
13:28:00 <ehird> You have no clue about frequency.
13:28:02 <ehird> FLV is the format for truth........
13:28:04 <ehird> ccon69 (1 day ago) +1 Reply | Spam
13:28:06 <ehird> FLV is low quality video and to do a video analysis in this format is a waste of time.
13:28:08 <ehird> gillamrl (17 hours ago) Reply
13:28:10 <ehird> Wrong FLV allows us to peer through the other dimension.
13:28:14 <ehird> FLV: the dimension-peering truth frequency format!
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13:40:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say applescript didn't get the job done. :P
13:40:45 <ehird> AnMaster: what i was trying to say is that applescript would be less useful for OS scripting tasks if it had a more typical syntax, IMO
13:41:02 <ehird> since it's almost all simple function calls, really, and those fit very easily into the natural language model
13:41:17 <ehird> there's still the problem of the "Why doesn't it understand my English?!", though
13:41:25 <ehird> even if the syntax is as formal as any other language
13:42:11 <AnMaster> ehird, but try to do something with any sort of flow control in it. Sure it can be done. Just not very nicely. And doing something like "for each foo in bar { some typical scripting task on each here }" isn't so unusual for scripting :P
13:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh another thing, at least on classical Mac OS, it was hard to find good docs on syntax and such. Everything was tutorial style rather than reference guide style
13:43:29 <AnMaster> so you had to look at what other scripts did to find out the syntax for the handler thing ("on xxx" iirc? Was ages ago I coded in it...)
13:43:30 <ehird> i'm pretty sure applescript has a standard each-loop
13:43:35 <ehird> and also ifs and the like
13:43:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i think it's better nowadays
13:43:55 <ehird> still, there's not much to learn, really
13:43:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also, you can view the Dictionaries
13:44:05 <ehird> applescripty applications come with full API documentation
13:44:10 <AnMaster> but that doesn't help for the syntax
13:44:36 <ehird> but that's a tiny part; even things like (say "Hello." with "voice") are part of a service
13:44:50 <AnMaster> Oh and "set item of container to value" instead of "container.item = value". Means you have to jump back and forth a bit there when reading the script.
13:45:12 <ehird> AnMaster: "set container's item to value"
13:45:56 <ehird> but applescript could be better, inded
13:46:17 <oerjan> <ehird> ADD SYNTACTIC EXTENSIONS TO C GIVING NOOGA'S FUCKED UP CHIMERA LANGUAGE <-- this would be META-COBOL, i guess?
13:46:30 <ehird> Coding in it is Metabolism.
13:46:35 <AnMaster> ehird, what about stuff like creating scripts that look like applications? And where you can drop things on? On classical MacOS how to do that wasn't documented, except well hidden inside an unrelated SDK (NOT the "AppleScript SDK", I think it was in "ColorSync SDK"(!)) as a comment in a script included with it.
13:47:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not sure you can do arbitrary Cocoa stuff, but basic dialog stuff is well documented. Pretty sure once you get to that point you're meant to start up Xcode and brush up on your Objective-C.
13:47:20 <ehird> If it was in ColorSync SDK it was probably just meant for that.
13:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant as in, making the script an app that you can drop files on
13:47:35 <AnMaster> it was used in lots of places by apple
13:47:42 <ehird> I'd be surprised if that's not well-documented nowadays. I'll take a look.
13:48:24 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not in ColorSyncScripting, which is a good indicator.
13:48:54 <AnMaster> back then it was a single SDK for scripting and C interface at least. hm
13:50:24 <ehird> It might be in System Events or something. Too lazy to look further.
13:52:08 <ehird> http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2009/02/08/linglish-or-some-thoughts-on-a-scripting-language-for-the-linux-desktop and http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2009/02/11/more-thoughts-on-linglish looks basically like AppleScript for D-Bus (so, uh, mostly gnome; KDE uses dcop doesn't it?)
13:52:20 <ehird> well it looks EXACTLY like that, not "basically" :P
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13:55:36 <ehird> I remember that one of the things that made me fall in love with KDE 3 was that article "KDE Rocks!" or whatever, that I can't find any more; it had a whole section on doing cool shit with dcop.
13:55:43 <ehird> It was wonderful to have such a ubiquitous environment; very much like an object system.
13:56:37 <ehird> Wow: http://computer-dating.com/
13:56:48 <ehird> Copyright 1995–1997 indeed.
13:56:53 <ehird> (Note: That's an en dash, that.)
13:57:47 <oerjan> down at the wiki, the wiki is down
14:08:59 <ehird> anyone remember the KDE Rocks article?
14:09:08 <ehird> it was just a huge list with screenshots of awesome KDE 3 magic
14:09:18 <ehird> like kparts k... url things
14:12:04 * Sgeo is falling in love with web2py
14:13:34 <ehird> and the author is a troll and spammer
14:15:08 <Sgeo> How is it awful?
14:15:17 <Leonidas> ehird: and tells his friends to spam reddit ^^
14:15:28 <ehird> Sgeo: the code is incredibly unpythonic and badly written,
14:15:35 <ehird> the administration interface is cheesy and unhelpful beyond a point,
14:15:39 <Leonidas> Sgeo: ugly code, and massimo does not have a clue on ahything
14:15:44 <ehird> he constantly spams reddit with articles about django and shit and how his is so much better
14:15:47 <ehird> while giving veiled praise to django
14:15:49 <ehird> to elevate his opinions
14:15:57 <ehird> he teaches a class where he basically indoctrinates the students to love web2py
14:16:03 <ehird> then gets them to spam reddit all with loving posts about it
14:16:06 <ehird> and criticism of django
14:16:18 <ehird> terrible concepts, terrible code, terrible authorr
14:16:24 <Leonidas> I had some message from massimo where he was asked whether web2py supports ORMs or something and hias answer was "dunno".
14:16:34 <Sgeo> The developer being a bad person ...... wait what?
14:16:41 <ehird> Sgeo: apparently you can't read ↑↑↑↑
14:16:59 <ehird> spammer, troll and clueless
14:17:07 <Sgeo> Does e not know what an ORM is?
14:17:29 <Leonidas> Sgeo: I got that impression from that mail, yes.
14:17:30 <ehird> Sgeo: even if he does, he's continually shown his cluelessness about all such things
14:17:40 <ehird> the site listed on his university page was made with iWeb :-)
14:17:47 <ehird> (bundled point-and-click, templated site creator w/ OS X)
14:17:55 <Leonidas> Sgeo: in the meantime, he implemented an "ORM" by himself, so apparently now he knows what it is
14:18:09 <ehird> Leonidas: ugh, i think i remember that one
14:18:19 <ehird> wasn't it basically mangled SQL with UPPERCASE METHOD NAMES and a bunch of crazy conventions
14:18:37 <ehird> ooh, who could forget "KPAX CMS"? it's social wiki blog chat news groups and has permissions!
14:18:58 <Leonidas> If I want a framework which I have to unfuck by myself, I'd rather go with web.py
14:19:20 <Leonidas> If I want a framework thats not fucked up in the first place, I stay away from both
14:19:29 <ehird> web.py is better nowadays
14:19:36 <ehird> but i prefer something a little more full-stack.
14:19:49 * Sgeo has already spoiled himself on web2py :(
14:19:51 <ehird> dammit, i may be a minimalist, but that means i don't want to write the redundant glue code
14:20:03 <Sgeo> Now, how do I reorient my brain towards Django?
14:20:05 <ehird> Sgeo: if you think you're spoiled on it, you must be the starving african child of web framework users
14:20:28 <ehird> Leonidas: aaronsw went on to make some sort of transparent government site and blogs about crap and i think he develpos web.py
14:20:32 <ehird> so ummm not much as far as i know
14:20:32 <Leonidas> oh, and the "enterpriseyness" of web2py with the focus on the admin interface it just ridiculous
14:20:59 <ehird> enterprise is another word for cheesy
14:21:29 <ehird> Leonidas: isn't that a bit redundant
14:22:09 <Leonidas> ehird: no, because EE puts a new dimension of bloat on top of the ridiculous problems of java. IMO
14:22:26 <ehird> i thankfully have not used it.
14:22:58 <Leonidas> Sgeo: or maybe checkout the 4-letters-frameworks with have appeared recently
14:23:23 <Leonidas> ehird: I tried using it, but the complexity to start with put me off
14:23:31 <ehird> whadya mean by 4 letters
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14:24:20 <Leonidas> ehird: http://simonwillison.net/2009/May/19/djng/ + juno, newf, mnml, itty
14:24:37 <Leonidas> or bottle, although that has too many letters.
14:24:49 <Leonidas> at least bottle has a sane author.
14:24:59 <ehird> a minimalist thing isn't really minimal if to use it for its intended purpose you have to do a lot of complicated things
14:25:02 <ehird> (writing glue code)
14:25:27 <ehird> "bottle.py is a fast and simple mirco-framework for small web-applications." // "mirco"; good first impression
14:26:09 <Leonidas> ehird: yep, I already mentioned it to the author, at least he fixed his signature ^^
14:26:34 <ehird> anyway web programming is so boring.
14:26:56 <ehird> ack is such an ambiguous word
14:26:58 <Leonidas> ehird: have some experience with these mini-frameworks?
14:27:00 <ehird> it's either "ack!" or ACK
14:27:05 <ehird> and they mean basically opposites :D
14:27:16 <Sgeo> web2py has HTML forum creation coupled with the model, I think
14:27:16 <ehird> Leonidas: no, i stopped batting around python frameworks like a year ago
14:27:27 <Sgeo> Which is worrisome, but convenient
14:27:27 <ehird> Sgeo: "HTML forum creation"; nice Freudian slip.
14:27:39 <Leonidas> Sgeo: django has it too, but decoupled
14:27:41 <ehird> I wouldn't be surprised if it embedded whole forum softwares in unrelated models.
14:27:43 <ehird> What Leonidas said.
14:28:15 <Leonidas> ehird: maybe I meant ack-grep and typed into the wrong window ;)
14:28:20 <ehird> Django has everything web2py does apart from the terrible code, lack of community, stupid write-code-in-a-web-interface, lack of modularity, and lack of nice features
14:28:27 <ehird> (that as, nice addon features)
14:28:33 <ehird> (NOT random crap bolted on to the core)
14:29:35 <Leonidas> write-code-in-a-web-interface is a great idea from Zope until they realized that it sucks badly.
14:30:07 <ehird> Leonidas: "it's a great idea that sucks badly"? :D
14:30:25 <ehird> a good way of making a decision on whether something is pythonic is to see if zope does it
14:30:28 <ehird> if they do, it's unpythonic
14:30:29 <Leonidas> sarcasm does not transmit well over irc
14:30:35 <ehird> Leonidas: i guessed it was sarcasm
14:30:37 <ehird> just funny phrasing
14:30:49 <ehird> hmm, zope has an object database actually
14:30:50 <ehird> and those are quite nice
14:30:56 <ehird> so my rule doesn't always apply :P
14:31:06 <ehird> (its OODB has a bloated api though)
14:31:14 * Leonidas even uses funny phrases in spoken sentences, so people sometimes go 'WTF?'
14:31:48 <Leonidas> ehird: theres also Durus, though I don't see the point, since ZODB works even without Zope
14:32:00 <ehird> people pronouncing wtf make me want to stab people >:|
14:32:04 <ehird> Leonidas: Durus has a lot nicer API
14:32:17 <ehird> and Zope crap tends to pull in weird Zope pie-in-the-sky architectural dependencies
14:32:27 <ehird> *Durus' API is a lot nicer
14:32:28 <Leonidas> sometimes I really wish I could just switch to an OODB and be done with it
14:32:31 <ehird> /much nicer, whatever
14:32:45 <ehird> Durus and ZODB don't handle things like search and stuff really though
14:32:49 <ehird> i mean not very well
14:33:05 <ehird> ...i hope i never use an SQL database much, though...
14:33:07 <Sgeo> I do like web2py's ORM to some extent: db(Article.id>3 and Article.name==test).select()
14:33:24 <ehird> Sgeo: Django does that but without the horrible abuse of syntax and comparison operators.
14:33:42 <Sgeo> ..the syntax is what I like about it
14:33:44 <Leonidas> I could implement my own OODB using pickles, but that would have every problem that ZODB has
14:33:56 <ehird> Sgeo: Your liking is wrong.
14:34:00 <Leonidas> Sgeo: SQLAlchemy has a similar syntax
14:34:08 <ehird> It's unpythonic, it breaks expectations, and it's not needed.
14:34:14 <Leonidas> sometimes I really wonder how the queries work
14:34:18 <ehird> You don't want it, you just think you do. :)
14:34:32 <ehird> (And I know why it's appealing; I wanted to make an ORM that did it once.)
14:34:34 <ehird> (Turns out it sucks.)
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14:51:32 <GregorR> Bleh, why can't I do kernel upgrades without reboots :P
14:52:15 <ehird> GregorR: ksplice bitchnizzle
14:52:20 <ehird> http://www.ksplice.com/ !
14:52:46 <ehird> It says it's just for Ubuntu, but it's a .deb, so.
14:52:58 <ehird> http://www.ksplice.com/uptrack/manualinstall
14:53:05 <GregorR> Guuuh ... this will let you change your KERNEL without reboot???
14:53:07 <ehird> Does Ksplice Uptrack support Kubuntu, Ubuntu Netbook Remix, and other Ubuntu variants or remixes?
14:53:08 <ehird> Yes. All of these variants are built on the same core, including the same Linux kernel packages. Note that the automatic installer does not work well in KDE and some other desktop environments, so you may need to follow the manual installation instructions. Once installed, the graphical Ksplice Uptrack manager will work in all desktop environments.
14:53:15 <ehird> Sometimes they need a patch, so you might be delayed by like a week.
14:53:20 <ehird> You don't have to restart X, even.
14:53:38 <GregorR> Judging by the website, I'm betting it's proprietary.
14:53:41 <ehird> Of course, they don't mention Debian, so YMMV, but you have backups, right?
14:53:50 <ehird> The Ksplice 0.9.8 utilities are available as an x86-32 binary distribution tarball, as an x86-64 binary distribution tarball, as a source code tarball, and in a Git repository. Old releases and GPG signatures are also available.
14:54:15 <GregorR> "Oh really" -> "ORLY" -> "Orally" = hilarious
14:54:35 <ehird> http://www.ksplice.com/example-update ;; Real kernel hackers develop in-place
14:54:46 -!- lambdabot has quit ("requested").
14:55:01 <ehird> Ding dong, the lambdabot is dead.
14:55:06 <ehird> "ksplice-undo — Undo a Ksplice update that has been applied to the running kernel"
14:55:10 <ehird> "Oh shit, my kernel's broken!"
14:55:14 <ehird> "I know, I'll just undo i— wait."
14:55:24 <GregorR> Apparently not TOO broken.
14:55:53 <ehird> from the homepage: "Experts agree that patching promptly is the most important practice for keeping systems secure."
14:58:24 * ehird notes that if GregorR installs it, either it'll work perfectly by using the debian repositories, or by sheer luck of compatibility, or he'll have to remove it from a livecd.
14:58:36 <ehird> On the other hand, WHO WANTS TO REBOOT
15:00:27 <ehird> I wonder how many people would call me insane for thinking that some Gnome software could and should be made even simpler.
15:01:06 <GregorR> So long as you keep "some" in there, fine.
15:01:12 <GregorR> I'll just continue not to use it :P
15:02:16 <ehird> Unopinionated software sucked.
15:02:38 <HackEgo> The only one of your children who does not grow up and move away \ is your husband.
15:02:47 <ehird> No. That's not what I meant. :P
15:03:08 <ehird> HackEgo: that's some incest.
15:03:15 <HackEgo> I am not a crook. \-- Richard Nixon
15:03:22 <ehird> Wow, that's… so offensive?
15:03:31 <HackEgo> One man's brain plus one other will produce one half as many ideas as one \ man would have produced alone. These two plus two more will produce half \ again as many ideas. These four plus four more begin to represent a \ creative meeting, and the ratio changes to one quarter as many ... \-- Anthony Chevins
15:03:33 <ehird> I mean I'm outraged.
15:03:53 <ehird> GregorR: Can you put apt in the environment kthx
15:04:08 <GregorR> Hahaha, I should just give it a full chroot :P
15:04:20 <GregorR> Anyway, apt wouldn't work under plash I suspect.
15:04:26 <ehird> Just a few lines, aye?
15:17:29 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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15:26:38 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Famous_apes // I think I should add a "It has been suggested that Category:Famous_people be merged into this article" box to this.
15:37:57 * Sgeo needs to come up with some project to make so he can practice using Django
15:38:15 <Sgeo> Horrible idea: PSOX on the web
15:41:15 -!- Pthing has joined.
15:43:31 <Sgeo> It would have a built-in Brainfuck interpreter, integrated with PSOX. People can submit brainfuck code and have it be run on the server
15:43:44 <Sgeo> Erm, Brainfuck/PSOX code
15:48:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:10:21 <ehird> Sgeo: write an Oracle game
16:10:34 <Sgeo> There already is one
16:11:08 <Sgeo> Unless you mean something else?
16:11:16 <Sgeo> http://www.oraclebot.com/ exists >.>
16:11:38 <ehird> Use all the fancy Django authentication and stuff, of course.
16:11:51 <ehird> Generic views too.
16:11:57 <ehird> Of course, that's not exactly trivial.
16:12:03 <ehird> Sgeo: to start off, follow the tutorial
16:12:13 <Sgeo> I've worked on a Django project before
16:12:26 <Sgeo> It used authentication, but not generic views
16:12:43 <Sgeo> I've read the tutorial before
16:12:53 <ehird> Read it again to remind your fresh.
16:12:57 <ehird> Refresh your mind, rather.
16:13:32 * Sgeo is reading a tutorial about AJAX and Django
16:13:52 <ehird> Sgeo: I wonder why you ask things when you don't want an answer different to yours.
16:15:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:18:04 <ehird> chairs are the wrong shape.
16:18:20 <ehird> except not that slanted
16:23:24 * oerjan isn't sure what that second shape means
16:23:54 <oerjan> although i have seen chairs where you put your feet backwards
16:24:43 <oerjan> a friend had one, supposedly better for the back
16:25:11 <oerjan> i think the seat was slanted forward too
16:25:43 <AnMaster> ehird, um? I think you could turn this chair into either shape. It is one of those office chairs with too many levers.
16:26:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean it was set so it could tilt freely backwards/forwards?
16:26:29 <oerjan> i don't recall how adjustable it was
16:26:49 <oerjan> i don't think you could have the legs forwards
16:27:05 <AnMaster> my chair has a lever to control free tilt/locket to position
16:27:08 <ehird> http://imgur.com/uuxZz.png ← this but with less fucked up proportions; jsut the basic idea
16:27:12 <ehird> also another grip at the top to hold you in
16:27:15 <ehird> (you clamp them on)
16:27:19 <ehird> (so, y'know, you don't fall out)
16:27:22 <ehird> but that's the basic idea
16:27:36 <ehird> i mean, obviously the top bit would bend back a bit more and the bottom wouldn't be as slanty blah blah
16:27:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you have *really* short legs?
16:27:40 <ehird> but you get the idea
16:27:47 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a fuckin' stick figure
16:28:03 <ehird> the guy at the left has a reaaaaaaaaaaally long spine
16:28:27 <ehird> if that was his neck
16:28:42 <ehird> it's a stick figure
16:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, his *arms* are down there
16:28:54 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but most of them are aligned with the spine
16:28:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anway I can't go fully vertical in this chair, but quite close
16:29:15 <ehird> AnMaster: does it have clamp things to hold you in?
16:29:33 <AnMaster> ehird, close = about 30 degrees forward
16:29:46 <ehird> not really but it doesn't matter :)
16:30:19 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:40:09 <ehird> http://browsertoolkit.com/fault-tolerance.png
16:43:44 <ehird> "In concert with users online across the country, this session will lead a flashmob to populate Stack Overflow with R language content."
16:43:53 <ehird> Man, I forgot R was a programming language for a second.
16:46:29 <Sgeo> In the future, will http://djangogigs.com be a good way to look for a job?
16:46:47 <ehird> I'll look in my crystal ball.
16:47:02 <Sgeo> I mean, would it be considered a good way now?
16:47:14 <ehird> How are we supposed to know? Ask in #django
16:47:47 <ehird> The Y programming language is a small C-like programming language that is commonly used for peephole optimizers. // I read this as "pedophile optimizers"
16:48:14 <GregorR-L> We need more programming languages like that.
16:48:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Ssh. Dateline are watching.
16:48:41 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
16:49:13 <ehird> I hope they didn't **CHRIS HANSEN'S DISEMBODIED VOICE — Have a seat right there.** notice.
16:49:15 <oerjan> you keep having these nose problems.
16:49:24 <ehird> oerjan: he's got no nose
16:49:27 <ehird> he's longing for it
16:51:10 <GregorR-L> A nose, a nose, my kingdom for a nose.
16:51:48 <ehird> (GregorR-L actually still has his nose. His parents did that trick with the thumb to him as a kid and he's never looked in a mirror since out of shame.)
16:52:13 <ehird> Your nose is not a '.
16:52:45 <ehird> Aprophetic monotony nonexistent moo.
16:53:38 <Sgeo> "If you were using this for any decorative purpose (at least one package was, it turns out)"
16:54:05 <Sgeo> http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/BackwardsIncompatibleChanges#Templatetagloadingrespectsdottednotation
16:54:14 <oerjan> FireFly: the nose was a cow-ard
16:54:15 <ehird> That's a formidable URL.
16:54:45 <ehird> really.pretty.name.module → module.py?
16:54:56 <ehird> that's retarded, but relying on it for decoration is even more so
17:06:14 <ehird> cvs can look like small-caps CVS.
17:06:22 <ehird> (works best in Helvetica)
17:08:20 <ehird> Someone said it on a slashdot comment thread and I wondered why it was smallcaps... but then it looked small...
17:08:28 <ehird> then my eyes refocused and whoa, that's actually just lowercase.
17:09:34 <Sgeo> Answering machine messages should not be 50 seconds long
17:09:51 <GregorR-L> They should be at least twenty-eight minutes long.
17:09:55 <GregorR-L> But with a warning at the beginning.
17:10:08 <GregorR-L> "If you really want to leave me a message, you're going to have to listen to this sex tape I made."
17:10:31 <ehird> Answering machines should actually start recording as soon as you dial, but play a shocking, stupid and long message beforehand.
17:10:55 <ehird> So all your messages go "... *drums fingers* ... *sigh* ... *gasp* ... beeeeeeep ... Uh, um ... Uh, hello, I was calling to see if"
17:11:41 <GregorR-L> If you're a person who rejects calls too often, you should put shocking secrets in your voicemail greeting to discourage yourself :P
17:12:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: How about a voicemail greeting that simulates more and more inappropriate conversation?
17:12:48 <ehird> "Hi ... How've you been? ... Oh, that's good ... (lots of time passes)"
17:12:53 <ehird> "I put on my robe and wizard hat."
17:19:03 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from?
17:19:24 <ehird> Oh, do you mean "I put on my robe and wizard hat."?
17:19:37 <ehird> Ye olde internet meme.
17:19:39 <ehird> Here's a source: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/bloodninja
17:21:33 <GregorR-L> I never realized how often he killed his cyberpartner X-D
17:22:03 <ehird> http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/bloodcyber.html appears to have many more.
17:22:05 <GregorR-L> (There are other examples out there, although probably any example of silly cybering gets the name replaced with "bloodninja" nowadays)
17:22:25 <ehird> (same linguistic mannerisms so probably the same guy)
17:22:33 <ehird> (i assume the albinoblacksheep one truncated it to the best)
17:24:32 <GregorR-L> MommyMelissa: What the f**k is this madlibs? I'm outta here. // lol
17:39:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
17:40:49 <ehird> nescience: I think that is the point.
17:41:18 <ehird> nescience: Past tense. Bloodninja was like early 2000.
17:41:53 <nescience> http://myndzi.seckzi.com/patty <- site i rescued from internet demise
17:42:27 <nescience> gotta let them come to you then reel em in, like fishing!
17:42:49 <nescience> there was also some personal homepage thing on an isp ural
17:42:56 <nescience> both are gone now i believe, and archive.org is spotty
17:43:00 <nescience> i managed to piece everything together
17:43:10 <nescience> might be missing a couple of the newest ones that were there
17:43:26 <GregorR-L> Ah, I was going to go check archive.org :P
17:44:25 <Sgeo> http://deardanno.tripod.com/ old site
17:44:39 <ehird> http://goatse.ca/ old site
17:44:49 <ehird> hmm it's squatted now
17:45:00 <ehird> "I've been away for awhile, but Danno will be back with all new columns in May of 2001!"
17:46:08 <Sgeo> Someone wrote in the guestbook in 2007
17:49:20 -!- graue has joined.
17:49:45 <ehird> Wow, it's a graue.
17:49:58 <graue> hi, anyone know if there are still people archiving backups of the esolangs.org wiki?
17:50:02 <ehird> We're likely to be eataen.
17:50:04 <graue> i messed it up and the latest backup doesn't work
17:50:15 <ehird> he's the type to do that
17:50:33 <ehird> graue: when's the previous backup?
17:50:47 <ehird> does that one work? :-P
17:51:04 <graue> well that's what i mean, it doesn't work
17:51:09 <graue> my server only keeps one backup
17:51:10 <ehird> thus "previous backup"
17:51:28 <GregorR-L> Hahaha, better hope ais saves the day :P
17:51:33 <GregorR-L> I've considered keeping backups, but then I didn't.
17:51:53 <Sgeo> In what way does the backup not work?
17:51:59 <GregorR-L> (Mainly because I could never figure out where to download them...)
17:52:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: The cynic inside me says that a backup from years ago would be no less valuable than the current one. ;-)
17:52:08 <graue> it uh, is still lacking the mw_objectcache table, which was crashed
17:52:10 <ehird> A lot of rubbish langs out there.
17:52:17 <ehird> sounds like you could rebuild it
17:52:32 <graue> in the past, i've fixed the mw_objectcache problem by truncating the table, and then it would work and rebuild the cache i guess
17:52:41 <graue> but this time i dropped it instead of truncating it
17:52:46 <graue> i don't know what the structure is supposed to be
17:52:55 <Sgeo> Ask in a MediaWiki channel?
17:52:57 <ehird> graue: grep -r 'objectcache' wiki/
17:52:59 <GregorR-L> `google "create table mw_objectcache"
17:53:00 <HackEgo> ... 数据`mw_math` -- -- -------------------------------------------------------- -- -- 表的结构`mw_objectcache` -- CREATE TABLE `mw_objectcache` ( `keyname` ... \ www.waibao51.com/ty.sql - [18]Cached - [19]Similar
17:53:16 <ehird> wow, that's a full db dumb of some iwki
17:53:25 <GregorR-L> So, the table structure will probably be right.
17:53:39 <ehird> generated 2009 so probably recent
17:54:11 <ehird> graue: could you disable the spam-checker thing that stops loads? we couldn't even delete some spam because it was detecting our referer or something
17:54:17 <ehird> ais523 had to disable referers to get to the delete page
17:54:23 <ehird> and it was impossible to save any edits
17:54:27 <ehird> has it actually got rid of any spam?
17:54:58 <graue> i'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time
17:55:21 <graue> yaaay the wiki is fixed, you guys are smart
17:55:40 <Sgeo> #esoteric : Heros of the 2009 Esolang Wiki Crash
17:55:51 <ehird> (At this point, GregorR-L, having self-lobotomised, becomes stupid.)
17:56:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: Tragedy of the 2009 Esolang Wiki Crash
17:56:05 <graue> so what is the "spam-checker thing that stops loads"?
17:56:17 <ehird> graue: like, you can't put <div> in a page or something
17:56:22 <ehird> also it checks referers and blocks pages I think?
17:56:25 <ehird> maybe mod_security, it does things like that
17:56:43 <graue> the referer checking is a mod_security thing done by my web host, i remember fighting with it way back. i'm not sure if i can override it or not
17:56:46 <ehird> but it just has a ton of false positives in my experience
17:56:52 <ehird> graue: ahh. perhaps in .htaccess
17:56:57 <graue> i did the blocking of <divs thing tho
17:56:59 <ehird> http://www.liewcf.com/blog/archives/2008/05/how-to-disable-mod_security-in-htaccess-file/
17:57:04 <graue> which as i recall, did indeed stop a lot of spam
17:57:11 <ehird> graue: the <div bit isn't too much of a trouble
17:57:15 <ehird> you can just do <span style="display:block
17:57:43 <Sgeo> The Python example on http://www.freewear.org/ is incorrect. There's an extraneous newline in that string
17:57:53 <ehird> that's... nice, Sgeo?
17:58:04 <ehird> i don't even see a python sample.
17:58:23 <Sgeo> "#I don't like Spam!
17:58:37 <ehird> that's not on the page.
17:59:04 <ehird> graue: oops, I didn't highlight you when I said http://www.liewcf.com/blog/archives/2008/05/how-to-disable-mod_security-in-htaccess-file/
17:59:09 <graue> in the .htaccess, dated november 2006...
17:59:12 <ehird> — which I didn't click before pasting, maybe I should
17:59:22 <graue> "cvs " and "echo " are explicitly allowed (they were blocked i guess) in post payload
17:59:35 <graue> and "<span" and "<div" in post payload are blocked
17:59:52 <ehird> clearly not "viagra", though, which stops us fixing pages with viagra in the title :-P
17:59:55 <graue> i guess people want to use <span> for legit formatting or something but like, a lot of spam was doing that, so
17:59:58 <ehird> well, we could just disable referers again
18:00:07 <graue> show me a page with viagra in the title
18:00:11 <ehird> graue: eh, <b style="font-weight: normal; display: block">
18:00:19 <ehird> graue: sure thing —
18:00:31 <ehird> graue: user called User:Viagra_free_something.com or the like
18:00:37 <ehird> was there for days before we figured out it was referers
18:01:55 <GregorR-L> So, incidentally, how does one download backups of the wiki? :P
18:02:22 <ehird> Also anthropomorphization.
18:02:28 <ehird> You have to make the server into a person then steal its thoughts.
18:02:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_preservation
18:02:42 <ehird> from the front page, yo
18:03:18 <ehird> graue: BTW, http://esolangs.org/wiki/ redirects to the voxelperfect url but other esolangs.org wiki addresses don't
18:03:21 <graue> oops, it lists a link hosted on my computer which has not existed for years
18:03:28 <graue> yeah that's just a quirk of apache
18:03:29 <ehird> latest.sql.bz221-Jul-2009 15:25
18:03:29 <ehird> http://calamari.reverse-dns.net:980/esowiki/
18:03:38 <ehird> ↑ Hooray if it hadn't worked?
18:03:45 <ehird> or was that backup a dud too
18:04:09 <graue> looks like he too is only keeping one
18:04:33 <ehird> http://calamari.reverse-dns.net:980/esowiki/mirror.png
18:04:36 <ehird> great artistic talent there
18:05:16 <ehird> i like how mirrorness is represented by blurriness and redness
18:05:21 <ehird> we all know that's what mirrors do to their images
18:05:23 <GregorR-L> When life gives you lemons ... make oranges?
18:05:33 <graue> limes, you mean. when life gives you limes
18:05:35 <ehird> Strangest oranges I've ever seen. Also, they're LIME.
18:05:43 * ehird hi5 graue *pedant buddies*
18:05:45 <GregorR-L> When life gives you limes ... make grapefruit?
18:06:10 <ehird> When life gives you limes, sell them for a profit.
18:08:20 <graue> well, time to crawl back into my hole
18:08:35 <graue> be in touch if anything else gets messed up, or just to say hi
18:08:36 <ehird> Alas, poor graue. I knew him … not so well.
18:08:40 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving").
18:08:49 <ehird> I wonder if he knows he hasn't actually given us a way to be in touch.
18:08:57 <ehird> (Well, we could check his website, I guess. :P)
18:11:11 <GregorR-L> OK, I'm now backing up nightly into an hg repo.
18:11:32 <GregorR-L> So if such a situation arises again, I will not only have the latest, but a non-screwed up history :P
18:11:33 <ehird> You are a true pygmy.
18:13:16 <ehird> 1.8K // this file has .2 of a byte.
18:15:30 <ehird> Fun fact: This channel's logs total 68MB.
18:16:39 <ehird> I present to you a bar chart of this channel's activity over time: ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▂▁▂▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▃▂▂▁▂▄▂▂▂▃▃▄▃▄▅▅▆▄▄▄▆█▆
18:16:59 <ehird> The twitter version:
18:17:00 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▁▁▃▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▂▂▂▃▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▃▂▁▂▂▂▃▂▁▁▂▂▃▃▅▃▃▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▄▃▃▃▂▅▄▄▄▂▂▄▅▄▅▅▅▅▄▅▆▆▄▄▃▃▅▅▃▄▅▆▆▇█▆
18:17:16 <ehird> I did that earlier this year, but I had the logs locally.
18:17:21 <ehird> % w3m -dump http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | awk '{print $6}' | tail -n +22 | perl -ne 's/K/* 1024/; print int(eval($_) + .5), "\n"' | squish 140 | sparkline
18:17:46 <ehird> My ASCII homage to Tufte.
18:18:03 <ehird> "squish" just "Compresses M values into N values."
18:18:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: Sure. You can have both, because I'm so kind.
18:18:13 <fizzie> It's not quite "ASCII" though.
18:18:19 <ehird> fizzie: Shushest, thou.
18:18:36 <ehird> It has the last line; "80
18:18:49 * ehird head -n -1 (I think)
18:19:17 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▁▂▂▂▂▃▃▂▄▄▆▆▅▇█
18:19:18 <ehird> That's more like it.
18:19:23 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▁▁▃▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▂▂▂▃▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▃▂▁▂▂▂▃▂▁▁▂▂▃▃▅▃▃▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▄▃▃▃▂▅▄▄▄▂▂▄▅▄▅▅▅▅▄▅▆▆▄▄▃▃▅▅▃▄▅▆▆▇█▆
18:19:25 <ehird> Still a little dip.
18:19:55 <GregorR-L> Forsooth, hereth I place mine words!
18:19:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: Two programs IN ONE PASTE: http://pastie.org/private/yq6r572x0ba5yykdprhq
18:20:19 <ehird> Note that the algorithm (if it can be called that) and chars for sparkline come from somebody's Ubiquity command somewhere.
18:20:24 <ehird> But mine's more unix.
18:20:30 <Sgeo> "Python 3000 is written in Ruby" --Guido* *May not be an exact quote
18:20:30 <ehird> And it does both arguments and stdin!
18:20:33 <ehird> Squish is the same!
18:20:52 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yU9FjrR2Ig
18:20:53 <GregorR-L> The exact quote is "Python 3000 is written in Python" :P
18:21:07 <ehird> Sgeo: I'm not watching that
18:21:48 <ehird> Sgeo: that "joke" isn't even given context
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18:22:45 <ehird> http://picoup.com/-sized chart:
18:22:47 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▂▂▂▃▂▄▅▆▅▇
18:23:10 <ehird> your message is too long. remember, only 18 characters and 1 user reference.
18:23:17 <ehird> it's counting 8-bit i think
18:23:20 <pikhq> That's pretty awesome.
18:24:00 <ehird> oh, I list the ubiquity script in the source
18:24:01 <ehird> "Based on http://gist.github.com/46562"
18:24:19 <ehird> it's rather more verbose
18:25:57 <ehird> I wonder why Smalltalk has dots
18:26:00 <ehird> I think you can use newlines instead
18:26:05 <ehird> but I guess that was too fuzzy for them
18:27:01 <GregorR-L> Because it's supposed to be vaguely like English, and that's how you end a sentence;
18:27:56 <ehird> (I'm playing around with ideas for an Objective-C based Smalltalk because F-Script is kind of lame)
18:28:30 <pikhq> Well, Objective-C is probably the sanest implementation language.
18:28:45 <ehird> pikhq: the point is using the environment
18:28:46 <pikhq> So little work involved in getting the object model working.
18:28:47 <ehird> same object model etc
18:29:12 <ehird> Basic thought process: Objective-C's cool, but most of the time you don't need the C parts, so why not just expand the brackets to cover the entire program?
18:29:17 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah; my point is that Objective-C's objects are a lot like Smalltalk's, so you don't need to fight the system.
18:29:36 <ehird> F-Script already exists but, as I said, is sorta lame.
18:29:42 <ehird> I don't know why, it just doesn't sit well with me.
18:29:48 <ehird> Maybe I'm being unfair on it.
18:29:54 <pikhq> And to think, I'm just thinking of some nice Tcl code generation for C.
18:30:01 <ehird> I don't think anyone actually writes apps in F-Script, though.
18:30:30 <ehird> one of the nicest parts of objective-c is its way of doing addon methods
18:30:39 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1503345
18:30:41 <ehird> iirc it's like [obj myAddonMethod] is basically myAddonMethod_objsClass(obj)
18:30:48 <ehird> i'm not sure if you can access instance vars
18:30:57 <ehird> but it lets you just give a nicer name to helper stuff
18:31:14 <ehird> pikhq: Drop the exclamation marks. Seriously.
18:31:47 <ehird> pikhq: Also, you realise almost all of that can be done as regular functions, right?
18:32:30 <ehird> -signal "destroy" {gtk_main_quit();}!;
18:32:33 <ehird> g_signal_connect (window, "destroy",
18:32:33 <ehird> G_CALLBACK (gtk_main_quit), NULL);
18:32:40 <ehird> hope you got an optimizer for that, cuz that's not gonna scale as-is
18:32:47 <ehird> (to non-function-calls)
18:32:51 <ehird> pikhq: that won't even work
18:32:55 <ehird> it'll do gtk_main_quit(NULL);
18:34:16 <pikhq> ... Use [...]. But I don't want to have to actually parse C for this!
18:34:18 <coppro> I wonder if it's possible to make a language where indentation-based block control can be optional
18:34:43 <ehird> pikhq: you already have to
18:35:16 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. I just have to watch for \!.
18:35:36 <coppro> I can't remember exactly why, but I recall haskell not being exactly what I wanted
18:35:36 <pikhq> You are a boilerplate lover.
18:36:09 <ehird> pikhq: no, I just think most of it can be done by functions and macros and your syntax sucks
18:36:38 <pikhq> Just Tcl scripts that evaluate to a string that gets inserted in. Wheee.
18:36:51 <ehird> ok just ignore me then
18:36:58 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, [...] might be a better syntax.
18:37:38 <pikhq> Especially since in Tcl, [...] evaluates ... and inserts the resulting string in.
18:38:16 <pikhq> Just need to do something to prevent it from evaluating array notation.
18:38:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:38:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:39:57 <pikhq> Also, that should totally be -signal "destroy" gtk_main_quit.
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18:41:59 <ehird> Who wants to use C, anyway?
18:44:58 <ehird> lol@someone on reddit claiming that stopping breathing is death even if you're resuscitated
18:45:05 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/93e4e/help_my_cat_is_sick_and_i_dont_know_what_to_do_im/c0bae9h
18:45:34 <pikhq> ... I know of no reasonable person who states that you die upon ceasing to breath.
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18:58:09 <ehird> pikhq: [[He had no heart beat or respiration for about a minute. He was, as the doctors say, dead. They resuscitated him with a defibrillator and he lived...]]
18:58:13 <ehird> Does anyone want to tell him what death is?
18:58:19 <ehird> I don't think he quite understands the concept.
19:02:37 <GregorR-L> That being said, if he's revivable, that's a pretty sucky doctor who says "yeah, this guy's dead lol"
19:02:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: Guy = cat :-P
19:04:25 <ehird> s/unicorn/strong, friendly AI/
19:04:35 <ehird> The unicorn is upgrading its brain.
19:04:36 <ehird> The vet is helping.
19:18:52 <ehird> "Rick Rocket has just saved the universe! Unfortunately, the massive destruction he left in his wake has caused a temporal anomaly that has reversed the flow of time. The player must assume control of Rick’s spacecraft and fight through the epic space battle... in reverse! Retro/Grade is an innovative game that fuses the white knuckle thrills and over the top visuals of a shooter with the broad appeal of a rhythm game. Players are forced to dodge enemy
19:18:54 <ehird> projectiles while positioning the ship to be in the correct place to fire their lasers when their shots come back to them. For more information, check out our FAQ."
19:18:57 <ehird> http://www.retrogradegame.com/
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19:21:12 * Sgeo wants to see a quine in COBOL
19:21:33 <Deewiant> http://www.tmdg.co.uk/programing/quine.cbl.php
19:21:53 <Deewiant> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?QuineProgramInCobol then
19:22:30 <ehird> Deewiant: from that guy's site:
19:22:31 <ehird> "My pet hate is the constant argument in alt.cobol about whether C or COBOL is the best language. I am open minded about this. I have written a few polygot programs that will compile both via the GNU C compiler and Micro Focus COBOL compilers."
19:22:34 <ehird> A man of compromise!
19:23:06 <ehird> http://www.tmdg.co.uk/programing/quine.shell.php
19:23:12 <ehird> That's a verbose way to write "cat $0"
19:23:48 <pikhq> Of course, I've got a much nicer quine.
19:23:50 <Deewiant> Also not Bourne shell compatible
19:24:11 <Deewiant> Hmm, that looks horribly unbalanced
19:24:27 <ehird> Now the whole WORLD is a syntax erro
19:24:39 <ehird> Deewiant: you can't change my lines!
19:24:43 <ehird> You just made yours unbalanced again
19:24:46 <ehird> thus making mine balance it out
19:25:05 <Deewiant> It doesn't matter which line got modified either time
19:25:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:25:24 <GregorR-L_> Darn, if graue was still here we'd have a fistful o' Gr's.
19:25:48 <ehird> But unfortunately not dollars.
19:26:07 <GregorR-L_> And super-unfortunately not pounds or euros.
19:26:28 <ehird> But fortunately not ZW$s.
19:26:33 <ehird> (Prounounced "Zimbabwe bucks")
19:33:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:36:00 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
19:36:09 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR-L: [[No, the VET who freakin TOLD me the CAT had DIED, did not attempt to issue a death certificate or officially call the time of death, but, then...he's a CAT and the LEGAL definition of death as it relates to humans DOES NOT REALLY MATTER in the casual conversational sense that I used it in...I'll use quotes next time and give you the vets number so you can argue medical semantics with HIM.]]
19:36:36 <ehird> Translation: "And if he says my kitty has DIED when he doesn't BREATHE for a few seconds after a BAD COUGH, then THAT'S OKAY BECAUSE IT'S CASUAL CONVERSATION FUCK YOU AND ALL YOU STAND FORRRRRRRRRR"
19:48:53 <Sgeo> Who spells webmaster as "webmastr"?
19:49:29 <Sgeo> It's spelled that way in both the image containing the email address and the mailto link
19:49:38 <ehird> The person is an idiot.
19:50:09 <Sgeo> Which, come to think of it, is a bit strange, using an image when spammers can get the address from the mailto link anyway
19:50:21 <Sgeo> Oh, btw, this is on the website for a college
19:50:46 <ehird> Deewiant: No, seriously, no.
19:50:48 <Deewiant> May be a limitation/arbitrary choice
19:50:53 <ehird> No, they're not using 8.3 files to store usernames.
19:51:18 <Deewiant> It can be DECLARE @username AS VARCHAR(8)
19:51:34 <ehird> Nobody's that idiotic … apart from the guy who'd spell it "webmastr".
19:51:40 <Deewiant> That isn't strictly speaking that stupid
19:51:41 <Sgeo> Well, there's another email address that is more then 8 characters
19:51:47 <Deewiant> If they're all internal usernames
19:51:54 <Deewiant> You won't need more than 8 chars
19:52:17 <Sgeo> What's the point of the image?
19:52:37 <Sgeo> I mean, besides being nicely inaccessible
19:52:54 <ehird> eh, they might pronounce the URL :-P
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19:53:37 <Sgeo> The image also contains the address of the college, and the phone number
19:53:44 <Sgeo> So much for blind students
19:54:01 <ehird> are you going to this college?
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19:55:10 * Sgeo likes being the best student in computer programming/information systems >.>
19:55:27 <Sgeo> I am planning on transfering out at some point
19:55:34 <ehird> Sgeo: But that implies a high probability of being better than your processor :-P
19:56:23 <GregorR-L> Also, they could be using AT&T Unix SysV R4 on their email servers.
20:09:25 <Sgeo> Well, I finally got the email from the college that I was supposed to receive, and was incessintly trying to call them about
20:20:03 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
20:21:53 <GregorR-L> Eh, it's a little bit better than no CAPCHA maybe?
20:22:48 <ehird> the best captcha is <div style="display: none"><input name="email"> (Spam trap; leave blank)</div>
20:22:51 <ehird> and check it's empty
20:23:05 <Sgeo> ehird, unless that starts catching on
20:23:24 <ehird> Sgeo: it's been researched; spambots only look at foo@bar.com email addresses
20:23:28 <ehird> because that's enough
20:23:39 <ehird> no, i doubt that's likely
20:23:48 <ehird> Sgeo: and some forms require email
20:23:56 <ehird> they'll just go back to the ol' "get people to fill it in manually"
20:24:00 <ehird> which is more or less impossible to stop
20:24:06 <ehird> so... this is the best way
20:24:34 <Sgeo> I'd imagine that faxzero in particular might be targetted
20:24:51 <Sgeo> So it can't just rely on a captcha that only works because no one's targetting it
20:25:02 <ehird> that's what all captchas rely on
20:25:12 <ehird> think there's an existing captcha
20:25:18 <ehird> (a) doable by humans
20:25:23 <ehird> (b) has been given effort and yet
20:25:26 <ehird> (c) has not been broken
20:26:39 <Sgeo> So recaptcha hasn't been given enough effort yet? Seems like it would be the best thing for spammers to target, imo
20:27:02 <ehird> (a) people may be working on it (b) you don't know if it's been broken
20:27:33 <ehird> Sgeo: nowadays they pay indian guys to fill out captchas all day long
20:27:37 <ehird> nothing can stop that
20:29:02 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
20:31:41 <GregorR-L> `google pay indian guys to fill out capchas all day long
20:31:42 <HackEgo> There are a lot that I can't make out at all. The other day I tried an ..... Once you've got a few characters you can then reference a dictionary to fill in the ones you can't recognise. ..... The bottom line is, as long as people are willing to pay, ..... So that is where the cheap hired Indian labor comes in. ...
20:32:20 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
20:34:58 <GregorR-L> http://bothole.appspot.com/ is interesting
20:35:11 <ehird> 20:31 GregorR-L: `google pay indian guys to fill out capchas all day long
20:35:11 <ehird> 20:31 HackEgo: There are a lot that I can't make out at all. The other day I tried an ..... Once you've got a few characters you can then reference a dictionary to fill in the ones you can't recognise. ..... The bottom line is, as long as people are willing to pay, ..... So that is where the cheap hired Indian labor comes in. ...
20:35:15 <ehird> That doesn't look like, uh
20:35:48 <GregorR-L> The result text was too long so the URL didn't show :(
20:36:30 <GregorR-L> I just had two failed attempts in getting one, wtf.
20:38:06 <GregorR-L> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2B3Uu8q-HL._AA280_.jpg <-- it just gave me this image. One word: "wtf?"
20:38:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: did you put in "wtf"
20:38:54 <GregorR-L> Yes. It did not accept that response :P
20:38:56 <ehird> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315nB%2B1gFsL._SL500_AA280_.jpg ← um…
20:39:08 <ehird> "pogo stick" put me on to a new one
20:39:11 <ehird> so i guess that's godo or something
20:39:29 <ehird> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157B9GSPWL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg ← apparently this isn't "poverty"
20:39:47 <ehird> http://images.cafepress.com/product/183032245_240x240_Front.jpg ← not a proud marine mom
20:40:03 <ehird> http://images.cafepress.com/product/33891001_240x240_Front.jpg ← methinks it repeats too much
20:41:36 <GregorR-L> Also, "bothole" just sounds so wrong :P
20:41:49 <augur> whats the S combinator again??
20:42:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://images.cafepress.com/product/90311100_240x240_Front.jpg ← tshirt... briefs... thing... evil mutant chimera item of clothing
20:42:29 <augur> that operator plays a hugely important part in natural language syntax
20:42:40 <ehird> >_< It didn't accept "sock" for a sock
20:43:08 <augur> there are constructions like "file without reading", as in "the article which I filed without reading"
20:43:22 <augur> and in order to explain that construction, you need something equivalent to S
20:44:01 <ehird> augur: s/file/filed/ yes
20:44:15 <augur> the tense in these cases is irrelevant
20:44:21 <augur> the important part is the syntactic types
20:44:58 <augur> file : NP -> VP; reading : NP -> VP; without : VP -> VP -> VP
20:45:11 <ehird> augur: those types seem ... simplistic
20:45:17 <ehird> but what do NP and VP stand for
20:45:24 <augur> noun phrase, verb phrase
20:45:42 <augur> without reading : NP -> VP -> VP, by function composition: reading.without
20:46:05 <augur> er.. without.reading
20:46:18 <pikhq> augur: S is also liftM2 id. ... For all the monads, not just functions. >:D
20:46:20 <augur> and then to get file to join with without.reading
20:46:32 <ehird> augur: reading returns a verb?
20:46:43 <augur> well, reading returns a verb phrase
20:46:50 <augur> reading itself is a verb
20:46:59 <augur> and then to get file-without-reading
20:47:19 <augur> you need to S together file, and reading
20:47:26 <augur> file, and without.reading
20:47:44 <augur> S(file)(without.reading) : NP -> VP
20:47:49 <ehird> augur: so linguistics is point free then :P
20:48:33 <augur> file-without-reading is NP->VP, and we can combine that with a bunch of other stuff to get which-i-will-file-without-reading : N\N
20:48:44 <ehird> is there like a branch of linguistics handling how to parse horribly broken language :P
20:48:49 <augur> and then apply that to "articles" to get N
20:49:20 <GregorR-L> Spam subject line: "Pump in your lady stronger obstructionist retailer"
20:49:50 <GregorR-L> But nobody listens to my suggestions :(
20:49:59 <GregorR-L> I haven't drawn one in a while ... this one is too wtf for me to draw anyway.
20:50:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Note that the last Spamusement comic is from June 2007.
20:50:08 <ehird> And the one before that October 2006.
20:50:17 <GregorR-L> ehird: Go to the forums and be enlightened.
20:50:38 <augur> ehird: you might want to read this book on CCG
20:50:42 <ehird> like by other people or whatever
20:50:46 <GregorR-L> Not by the original author, no, but there are a lot of ultra-hilarious others.
20:50:52 <augur> well, more Birds for language
20:51:09 <ehird> Fun fact: I knew of Spamusement and Steven Frank-as-mac-developer independently but did not correlate.
20:51:12 <ehird> NEXT TIME ON FUN FACTS:
20:51:18 <ehird> DUN DUN DUN JINGLE
20:51:27 <augur> kookoo kachoo kakookoo ka choooooo
20:51:44 <pikhq> augur: Goo goo g'joob.
20:54:28 <augur> afk making pizza dough :o
20:54:46 <ehird> Making pizza; D'oh.
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21:37:07 <augur> i have a hypothesis
21:37:54 <pikhq> I have an implementation of hq9+ in Haskell, because I was really freaking bored.
21:38:04 <augur> the fundamental laws of the universe are the way they are because they are possible within a system that has no notion of "simultaneous"
21:39:13 <augur> the only time-related notions that we /know/ the universe has is causal connections
21:39:32 <augur> if one event caused another event, then the causing event preceded the caused event
21:39:45 <augur> but if two events are mutually causally exclusive, they have no time ordering
21:39:55 <augur> neither happened before or after or at the same time as the other
21:40:21 <augur> so my conjecture is that the universe is built around trying to work within this system
21:41:03 <ehird> causality is suspect :)
21:41:06 <GregorR> I have no idea if that conjecture has any useful conclusions.
21:41:17 <augur> GregorR: the conclusion im drawing from it is
21:41:21 <GregorR> If that hurt, causality is not suspect.
21:41:49 <augur> The universe is designed to run multithreaded in a completely safe fashion.
21:41:50 <ehird> <GregorR, folk physicist> HURR SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE AND INTUITIVE NOTIONS APPLY TO THE FUNDAMENTAL LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE
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21:56:49 <ais523> wow, thedailywtf.com just linked to esolang
21:57:09 <ais523> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Programming-Praxis-Russian-Peasant-Multiplication.aspx
21:57:20 <pikhq> augur: Clearly. After all, data only propogates one lightsecond per lightsecond; that makes for some highly data-parallel computing.
21:57:41 <augur> one lightsecond per second, you mean? :P
21:57:58 <ehird> ais523: that's fucking stupid
21:57:58 <ehird> "There is no language restriction, though anything on the esoteric language list will probably be ignored."
21:58:04 <ehird> "DO THIS STUPID TASK FOR NO REASON"
21:58:07 <augur> information propogates very fast, yes.
21:58:09 <ehird> "BUT MAKE SURE IT'S NOT A QUEEEEEEEEEEESTION"
21:58:12 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood_: Point.
21:58:21 <ehird> s/QUE+STION/CHAAAAAAAALLENGE/
21:58:37 <pikhq> augur: No, light is pretty damned slow.
21:58:37 <augur> bsmntbombdood_: in general parlance, "light" is shorthand for multiple-of-c
21:58:52 <ehird> i always hear "3 lightspeed"
21:59:00 <augur> ehird, yes, but you also hear light.
21:59:07 <ehird> no, you hear sound
21:59:07 <GregorR> Light is neither fast nor slow, it is the reference speed :P
21:59:07 <augur> as in, we're travelling at five kilolight
21:59:14 <ehird> GregorR: it's the fastest speed
21:59:37 <GregorR> ehird: Nothing in relativity prevents tachyons from existing, it just prevents them from having any effect on us whatsoever.
21:59:41 <pikhq> Data travels at 1L/T.
21:59:48 <augur> if its the fastest speed, surely C must then be the time-between-computations on the parallel computer that runs the universe!
21:59:51 <pikhq> (Planck units FTW)
21:59:56 <ehird> GregorR: All backwards tachyons can be "reimagined" as forwards ones, no?
22:00:03 <augur> GregorR: actually tachyons DO exist
22:00:08 <ehird> So it's only going at the speed of light for some sort of definition of that.
22:00:09 <augur> if they existed, they would move backwards in time
22:00:16 <ehird> augur: uh, there's no proof they exist or don't.
22:00:24 <GregorR> augur is a tachyonic being.
22:00:29 <augur> but if they moved backwards in time, then they would move backwards from OUR perspective
22:00:35 <augur> as they moved forwards in their perspective
22:00:53 <augur> and they would have time-reversed properties like charge
22:01:04 <augur> antimatter is just matter moving at super-light speeds
22:01:22 <ehird> augur: your theories are, how shall we put this
22:01:24 <ehird> unsupported by evidence
22:01:39 <augur> actually, ehird, im merely making random connections between antimatter and tachyons
22:01:43 <GregorR> I don't think I've ever laughed more at the phrase "unsupported by evidence" :P
22:01:49 <augur> its common in physics to view antimatter as normal matter moving backwards in time
22:01:59 <pikhq> ais523: That "challenge" is really stupid.
22:02:15 <pikhq> The C++ *template* implementation is a one-liner.
22:02:16 <augur> im sure if slereah were here he'd back me up on this
22:02:20 <ais523> but it may drive a bit more challenge to esolang
22:02:34 <ehird> augur: plz provide a sourcey source.
22:02:43 <GregorR> I have never heard of antimatter being viewed as time-reversed matter, especially since that makes no sense w.r.t. causality, entropy, ...
22:02:55 <augur> gregorr: but it does! :o
22:03:10 <pikhq> template<int b,int c>struct r{static const int s=b?r<b/2,c*2>::s+b%2*c:0;};
22:03:18 <augur> yeah. its feynman diagram things.
22:04:20 <Pthing> which is like all i know and i don't know to what degree it's rigorous
22:04:21 <augur> from wiki: "Each line of a diagram represents a particle propagating either backward or forward in time. This technique is the most widespread method of computing amplitudes in quantum field theory today."
22:04:28 <Pthing> because the point of feynman diagrams is they're not rigorous
22:04:37 <Pthing> they're a tool for doing the rigorous QED which is hard
22:04:48 <augur> pthing: they're conventionalized ways of computing perturbations for QED
22:05:19 <augur> ok so according to wiki
22:05:39 <augur> an antiparticle can be gotten from a positive particle from "applying the charge conjugation (C), parity (P), and time reversal (T) operators"
22:05:41 <GregorR> At the quantum level, lots of things can be viewed meaningfully in a time-reversed frame. And yet, antimatter eggs no more unscramble themselves than matter eggs.
22:06:13 <augur> gregorr: real eggs unscramble themselves all the time!
22:06:42 <augur> the thing about entropy is that its a statistical law, atleast at the scales we normally talk about
22:06:43 <pikhq> I see augur films eggs being scrambled and puts the film in a projector backwards.
22:07:07 * GregorR eats some delicious antimatter eggs.
22:07:16 * GregorR 's mouth is annihilated in a fierce explosion.
22:07:37 <augur> and saying that normal eggs dont unscramble themselves is not entirely correct, because its only incredibly statistically unlikely, not impossible.
22:07:53 * pikhq has a spontaneous existential failure, like everyone else on the hemisphere
22:08:21 <ehird> GregorR: you know, i'm fairly sure those antimatter eggs exploded as soon as they came across their good ol' friend "air"
22:08:42 <pikhq> ehird: He lives in a vacuum.
22:08:49 <augur> ehird: they might explode, but maybe not
22:09:06 <ehird> augur: shut up, you're not a physicist, you're a bullshittist :)
22:09:16 <augur> the surface area of the egg exposes only a small amount of the mass of the egg
22:09:55 <ehird> huh, canvas has been around since 2004
22:10:33 <augur> its possible that the surface annihilation would create enough radiation that the air around the egg gets blasted away in a minor explosion leaving a vacuum
22:10:33 <ais523> augur: who cares? there are enough molecules on the surface to cause a massive explosion as-is
22:10:42 <augur> before, ofcourse, collapsing back in and starting it again.
22:11:00 <augur> ais523: but is there? its hard to know how much will actually react
22:11:26 <augur> how much does a one-atom-thick eggshell of carbon weigh? a gram? probably not even remotely close.
22:11:41 <augur> essentially its graphene with the same area as the eggs surface
22:11:51 <augur> i doubt itd weigh much more than a few micrograms
22:12:09 <ehird> 22:11 augur: how much does a one-atom-thick eggshell of carbon weigh? a gram? probably not even remotely close.
22:12:19 <augur> the explosion might destroy a town, but probably not a hemisphere
22:12:25 <ehird> i mean are you serious
22:12:30 <ehird> like are you SERIOUS
22:12:36 <augur> do you have calculations for the mass of the graphene, ehird?
22:12:50 <augur> we can find out tho
22:13:09 <pikhq> ehird: The amount of explosion from contact with air is proportional to the surface mass of the egg. ;)
22:13:20 <pikhq> (surface mass. :D)
22:13:56 <augur> graphene is very light
22:13:59 <Pthing> somehow doesn't break the egg
22:14:04 <Pthing> doesn't vaporise the egg
22:14:10 <augur> pthing: it would compress it more likely
22:14:16 <augur> given that its radial, or roughly so
22:14:34 <augur> what you'd really want is to deposit matter into the CENTER of the egg
22:14:47 <augur> which would cause the egg to explode outwards into tiny pieces
22:15:00 <augur> which would create more massive secondary explosions due to increased surface area
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22:17:47 <pikhq> augur: The simplest way to do this involves acceleration of either the egg or the antimatter.
22:17:52 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Antiegg.
22:17:57 <pikhq> Acceleration of matter.
22:18:06 <pikhq> Like, say, a rock.
22:18:41 <augur> lets say a perfectly spherical Ideal Cow
22:19:13 <augur> ok so graphene layers are apparently 0.34nm thick. at lets say 2 g cm^-3 density, that makes it (2 g cm^-3)*(3.4e-8 cm^3) = 6.8e-8 g of antiegg
22:20:42 <augur> according to http://www.edwardmuller.com/right17.htm
22:20:51 <augur> that should be an explosion of
22:21:18 <augur> 2.92128 kilograms of dynamite
22:21:40 <augur> or maybe thats 2.92128 pounds of dynamit. either way!
22:22:59 <augur> infact, the site there says a whole pound of antimatter would only release 19.5 megatons of energy
22:23:18 <augur> meaning the egg wouldnt even destroy the whole STATE gregorr is in nevermind the whole hemisphere
22:23:50 <ehird> Not even the whole state!
22:24:05 <augur> or whatever gregor is in :p
22:24:14 <augur> i dont know where he is, im assuming hes in The Average American State
22:24:49 <augur> a perfectly circular fictional state with an area equal to precisely the average of all american states xp
22:25:57 <augur> see, this is what you get for talking fictional explosions with someone who routinely discussed the merits of the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate
22:26:22 <augur> or its broader incarnation, the X vs Y debate for some X, Y in scifi.
22:26:25 <ehird> dude, you think antimatter is going back in time.
22:26:40 <augur> well it is! its time reversed, charge-reverse normal matter
22:26:46 <augur> this is the standard quantum mechanical interpretation
22:27:00 <augur> theres no distinction between time reversed charge reversed positive matter, and antimatter
22:28:14 <augur> antimatter as time-reversed positive matter doesnt create paradoxes
22:28:22 <augur> so theres no reason not to think of it that way
22:29:57 <augur> after all, time itself is generally treated as just another dimension, presumably one which obeys certain laws of how the things that extend through it can relate to one another structurally, but other than that
22:34:21 <ehird> http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40534000/jpg/_40534689_toastie-afp203.jpg ← This was sold for $28,000.
22:34:25 <ehird> Guess why without googling.
22:34:26 <Pthing> not going to crush/vaporise an egg?
22:34:32 <Pthing> just, how did you put it
22:34:36 <augur> pthing: well itll definitely destroy it
22:34:42 <augur> itll mostly compress it
22:34:57 <augur> but mostly compress
22:35:04 <Pthing> definitely splatter everywhere
22:35:08 <ehird> It apparently has the Virgin Mary on it.
22:35:20 <augur> but remember, pthing, its happing radially, outside the egg
22:35:40 <Pthing> i still don't see how this stops fragments and blobs of antimatter reacting
22:36:00 <Pthing> there's enough activation energy there to make it go off like a cluster bomb
22:36:39 <augur> it doesnt, it just prevents it from happening RIGHT away by compressive the egg while the air around it is blown away in the initial explosion
22:36:54 <augur> when the egg rebounds from the compression, and the air rebounds in, itll go even bigger
22:36:54 <Pthing> so what, it goes back in a second
22:37:16 <augur> more like a millisecond
22:37:42 <augur> its just a point of fact!
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23:47:52 <GregorR> I want some Yu Wan Mei Miscellaneous Tasty Paste :(
23:49:17 <ehird> I want the Yu Wan Mei Device.
23:49:23 <ehird> It has been completed and is now available for sale .
23:51:57 <ehird> GregorR: http://pastebin.com/m1d114cb0
23:52:02 <ehird> The feature list of the Yu Wan Mei Device!
23:53:11 <ehird> GregorR: The guy who bought it (for $4,300) by mistake got a feature list
23:53:13 <ehird> So it's definitely real
23:53:13 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/92u42/the_onion_sells_out_to_china/c0b9qw7
23:53:22 <ehird> It requires a lot of batteries.
23:54:24 <ehird> I hope he doesn't cancel it, I want to see what they do :-)
23:54:51 <GregorR> "Red blinking lights, randomly accompanied by loud siren noise"
23:55:04 <ehird> It also has an antenna.
23:55:17 <ehird> Presumably, it listens and logs all information received from it in an inaccessible part of memory.
23:55:21 <ehird> And does not act on it.
23:55:31 <ehird> GregorR: The edges might be sharper than the Palm Pre.
23:55:38 <ehird> (http://gizmodo.com/5279413/palm-pre-cuts-the-cheese)
23:57:00 <ehird> http://www.yuwanmei.com/img/yuwanmei_broiled_shark_gums_large.jpg ← I wonder what gums taste like.
23:57:58 <GregorR> That is quite the assortment of batteries :P
23:58:19 <ehird> Can you get AAAA batteries?
23:58:45 <GregorR> Not to my knowledge. There are batteries that are half the size of a AAA, but they're not called AAAA (they're half the height, otherwise they're the same)
00:00:46 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAAA_battery
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00:02:24 <GregorR> Apparently the best way to get them is by fekking up your favorite 9-volt :P
00:03:10 <ehird> why isn't there a battery that's superthin but very tall and wide?
00:03:15 <ehird> like smartphone size
00:03:23 <ehird> that's get some gooooood battery life
00:08:45 <ais523> ehird: might be quite hard to make, modern battery manufacture is inherently 3-dimensional
00:09:03 <ais523> I wouldn't think it would be impossible, but it would be very fiddly
00:09:22 <ehird> intuitively it'd seem like it'd pack a LOT of battery life
00:09:37 <ehird> ais523: it'd be heavy, wouldn't it?
00:09:55 <ais523> relatively, most of it will be solid metal and the bits that aren't would be gel stuff
00:10:00 <ais523> whereas things like phones are mostly air
00:10:47 <ehird> ais523: are you sure about that?
00:10:51 <ehird> i'm not sure my iphone is mostly air
00:11:08 <ais523> ehird: the motherboard generally doesn't fit exactly 3-dimensionally into a case
00:11:13 <ehird> it's an LCD, a board with multiple chips and volatile and non-volatile memory, speakers, ports, ...
00:11:16 <ais523> and the inside of chips is also mostly air
00:11:17 <ehird> ais523: i think the iphone's is close
00:11:26 <ehird> ais523: heatspreaders aren't air, are they?
00:11:33 <ais523> they're half air, half metal
00:11:35 <ehird> i mean, ok, an actual chip is gonna be mostly ... nothing
00:11:40 <ais523> trying to get as much surface area as possible
00:11:50 <ehird> ais523: but it's an ARM chip
00:11:53 <ehird> it doesn't get very hot
00:12:04 <ais523> then it won't need a very big heatsink
00:12:08 <ehird> ais523: it has none
00:12:12 <ehird> just a heatspreader
00:12:21 <ais523> it does, it'll be the wires connecting it to the motherboard
00:12:30 <ais523> they're a sort of rudimentary heatsink, that every chip has
00:12:39 <ais523> sometimes it's enough by itself, for low powered things
00:12:44 <ehird> occasionally the top of my iphone is sort of between warm and hot
00:12:51 <ehird> as in, if i hold it there, i definitely notice it constantly
00:12:53 <ehird> but it's fine to touch
00:12:55 <ais523> I've actually seen chips where they added extra pins simply for the purpose of absorbing heat
00:13:10 <ehird> but that's mostly the metal, I imagine
00:14:12 <ais523> it's still going to be lighter than a battery, as the outside is going to be mostly plastic whereas batteries are mostly metal
00:14:33 <ehird> ais523: http://makezine.com/hackszine/iphone_20070629.jpg http://www.itechnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/iPhone-Disassembled-3.jpg http://www.iphonebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/iphone-_3g_dismantle_2.jpg
00:14:37 <ehird> the iphone hardware fits _exactly_
00:14:43 <ais523> that really doesn't surprise me at all
00:14:52 <ehird> (note that the last one is the 3G and the previous two are the original, but)
00:15:00 <ehird> it's a really tight fit
00:15:01 <ais523> although unless all the chips on the board are exactly the same height, there'll still be air gaps vertically even with an exact fit
00:15:04 <ehird> couldn't even fit a pin in there
00:18:38 <ehird> also, you know what's awesome?
00:18:46 <ehird> the palm pre has wireless charging.
00:18:55 <ehird> "It's referred to as "The Puck," and you just click the back of the Pre onto its flat surface and the juice starts to flow."
00:18:59 <ehird> needs more... wirelessosity, though.
00:19:07 <ehird> like, say... across the room? :D
00:19:22 <ehird> (at this point, ais523 tells me why that's totally impossible)
00:19:49 <ais523> ehird: not impossible, although it will be hilariously inefficient unless the charge coil goes all the way around the room, say built into the walls
00:20:04 <ehird> ais523: hmm, is that safe?
00:20:07 <ehird> like, instead of microwaves
00:20:08 -!- Pthing has joined.
00:20:11 <ehird> gigantic microwaves.
00:20:27 <ais523> ehird: who knows? it's used at low power in order to send information to hearing aids
00:20:44 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's been researched what happens if you put enough power in there to charge a smartphone
00:21:08 <ehird> if it is safe, let's put it in every building!
00:21:09 <ais523> next time you see a sign saying "if you have a behind-the-ear hearing aid set it to T", you know there's an induction loop in the room
00:21:13 <pikhq> I know a great wireless power solution.
00:21:22 <ehird> ais523: i thought that was radio-powered or something
00:21:29 <ais523> ehird: nope, it's induction
00:21:29 <ehird> pikhq: nice way to kill yourself walking across the room :D
00:21:31 <ehird> it'd be like the movies
00:21:35 <ehird> with the crisscross of laser wires
00:21:38 <ehird> except they kill you
00:21:49 <ais523> ehird: you can't draw a whole lot of current from a tesla coil, quite likely you'd survive it
00:21:49 <pikhq> ehird: You realise that's what Tesla coils are for, right?
00:22:14 <ehird> pikhq: i was referring to the
00:22:22 <ehird> ...what's it called
00:22:31 <ehird> wow i get dumb sometimes
00:22:35 <ehird> i know stuff on paper
00:22:46 <ais523> ehird: as I said, you can't draw significant current from one of those
00:22:49 <pikhq> ... That would be a different bit of high-voltage stuff.
00:22:51 <ais523> although the massive voltage sort-of cancels it out
00:22:57 <ehird> ais523: what, it's safe to touch?
00:23:02 <ehird> i find that hard to believe
00:23:06 <ais523> ehird: I've seen someone holding a flourescent light
00:23:09 <ais523> and walking into a tesla coil
00:23:20 <ehird> must have felt tingly
00:23:26 <pikhq> Very large coils are dangerous.
00:23:34 <ais523> yes, you can make Tesla coils powerful enough to hurt a human
00:23:39 <ais523> but most of the time you wouldn't
00:23:39 <pikhq> Those are generally not seen without metal cages around them.
00:23:53 <ehird> i saw a video on youtube a year or two ago where a guy played the mario theme on a tesla coil
00:24:16 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1O2jcfOylU dunno if this was it, but
00:24:35 <ehird> and comes with built in visualiser!
00:24:41 <pikhq> Tesla intended to make coils large enough to be dangerous nearby, though.
00:24:49 <pikhq> Namely, he intended to use coils as a replacement for *the power grid*.
00:24:49 <ehird> yes but tesla was a weirdo :D
00:25:12 <ehird> pikhq: oh that thing where he wanted it to reverberate all the way through the earth to the other side for power?
00:25:14 <ehird> yeah i remember that
00:25:25 <ehird> tesla, while a genius, was also a huge kook :-)
00:25:35 <pikhq> ehird: For the return feed, you mean?
00:25:47 <ehird> i just remember it
00:26:02 <ehird> he wanted to give power to the entire world by shoving electricity through the earth
00:26:06 <pikhq> Uh, guess what. That's commonly done. Many rural areas have single-wire power transmission.
00:26:14 <pikhq> The negative end goes through the earth.
00:26:14 <ehird> pikhq: to the other side of the world, man
00:26:19 <ehird> you wouldn't have a power grid or anything
00:26:22 <ehird> it'd be picked up from the ground
00:26:30 <ehird> from the other. side. of. the. earth.
00:26:47 <ehird> just earth for the power
00:26:53 <ehird> which was the kooky part
00:27:05 <pikhq> His idea of the transmission distances where implausible, but it would work with regional coils.
00:27:49 <ais523> heh, I sort-of get the idea; if you could set up an oscillation in earth potential, then you could average it out with a capacitor or something
00:27:58 <ais523> and get an AC potential between the averaged value and the actual value
00:28:00 <ais523> and power stuff with it
00:28:13 <ais523> wow would that take a lot of energy to set up, though
00:28:19 <ehird> An Idea That Doesn't Actually Work But Would Be Awesome: Put two tesla coils at opposite ends of the earth. Make them buzz together.
00:28:22 <ehird> Earth's core fuck yeah
00:28:30 <ehird> ais523: hey, we have infinite energy amirite?
00:28:36 <ais523> ehird: unfortunately not
00:28:38 <ehird> oops it's the 21st century never mind
00:29:22 <pikhq> A far more practical method of power transmission involves radio waves.
00:29:36 <ehird> i want a dyson sphere
00:29:44 <pikhq> The only limiting factor is that high power is fucking dangerous.
00:29:52 <ehird> pikhq: well that's the thing
00:29:56 <ehird> we COULD just use really fucking powerful microwavse
00:29:58 <ais523> pikhq: microwaves work too
00:30:03 <ehird> hey, the electronics might survive it :)
00:30:12 <ais523> ehird: you /can/ get power from radio waves, though
00:30:15 <pikhq> ais523: Microwaves are high-frequency radio waves.
00:30:20 <ais523> IIRC there's a watch or something which is powered by radio waves in the area
00:30:27 <ais523> pikhq: no, they're both forms of TEM
00:30:38 <ais523> but people don't normally use radio to mean microwave, just like they don't use radio to mean optical frequency light
00:31:03 <ehird> wow, we should figure out how to do audio radio programs with visible light
00:31:15 <ehird> it'd be like adverts showing off mobile internt
00:31:19 <ehird> with the streams of light hitting your phoen
00:31:30 <pikhq> ais523: Note that microwaves are the frequencies between 0.3 GHz and 300 GHz.
00:31:35 <pikhq> And that we deal with 2.4 GHz radios.
00:31:48 <ais523> pikhq: that's due to researchers arguing about where the cutoff should be
00:32:00 <ais523> ehird: visible light disperses too easily
00:32:10 <ais523> although, that might be a viable option underwater, because radio doesn't work there
00:32:18 <ais523> pity that sonar's better there, visible would be so much cooler
00:32:27 <ehird> "we could do radio underwater except we can't do radio udnerwater"
00:32:37 <ais523> ehird: I meant, visible light communication
00:32:43 <ais523> it just gets absorbed too easily, though
00:34:19 <ais523> still, microwaves are /even worse/ underwater, at various frequences
00:34:26 <ais523> they just heat it up and only go a few centimeters
00:34:44 <pikhq> I vote we use gamma rays.
00:34:50 <ehird> I vote we use SPIT.
00:34:57 <ehird> "Oh, I'm volunteering with the BBC"
00:35:14 <ehird> we can just set up huge stations with tons of people spitting different kinds of spit
00:35:14 <ais523> I've heard it argued that people should communicate using neutrinos, after all they go through just about everything
00:35:20 <ais523> the problem is, they're basically impossible to detect
00:35:22 <ehird> and people in the next collecting them in buckets and respitting
00:35:35 <ehird> your radio comes with a big bucket attached to collect the spit and process it
00:35:37 <ais523> due to going through just about everything
00:35:37 <pikhq> How's about tachyons?
00:35:59 <ehird> "3 hours ago, we will be playing the new hit single, ..."
00:36:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:36:20 <pikhq> International Tachyon Causality-Avoidance Network. Intertacanet.
00:36:46 <ehird> Causality Attention Crusaders, Associated.
00:36:53 <ehird> They don't want none.
00:37:04 <ehird> (IT MEANS POO LOL)
00:39:07 <ehird> http://gizmodo.com/5320587/samsung-worlds-thinnest-watchphone-also-happens-to-be-one-of-the-worlds-only-watchphones
00:39:12 <ehird> It has a touchscreen.
00:41:03 <ehird> It's not the thinnest, though.
00:41:12 <GregorR> I'll bet it's ludicrously fucking expensive.
00:41:42 <ehird> The first wave of releases will be scattered throughout Europe, starting in France, where the S9110 will retail for around $650.
00:41:49 * coppro starts wondering why more languages don't allow whitespace in identifiers, then ducks
00:41:50 <ehird> Ehh. The top iPhone 3G S costs more.
00:41:50 <pikhq> Sure. But owning it is justification for practicing a Bond impersonation.
00:42:00 <ehird> coppro: Genera does, IIRC.
00:42:04 <ehird> Since its commands had spaces in.
00:42:04 <GregorR> pikhq: I - have - a - watch - phone.
00:42:09 <ehird> I don't know if the underlying Lisp did.
00:42:20 <ehird> Maybe so; (defun |I Like Big Butts And I Cannot Lie| (foo) ...)
00:42:21 <pikhq> GregorR: That's awesome.
00:42:23 <coppro> I'm not saying there aren't any
00:42:34 <coppro> I'm just saying I'm wondering why more don't
00:42:39 <ehird> #;1> (define (|Hello, world!| x) x)
00:42:39 <ehird> #;2> (|Hello, world!| 2)
00:42:40 <pikhq> GregorR: So, practising a Bond impersonation?
00:42:55 <ehird> coppro: anyway, because whitespace usually separates shit
00:42:56 <ais523> coppro: it's still fun to enumerate the ones that do
00:43:12 <ais523> ooh, sorear thinks INTERCAL allows whitespace anywhere, including inside keywords
00:43:26 <coppro> yes, I believe that's the case
00:43:30 <pikhq> proc {This is an absurdly long proc with a bunch of spaces} {args} {put $args} ;# Perfectly valid.
00:43:40 <ehird> pikhq: yes but tcl sucks :P
00:43:48 <coppro> ehird: quoted identifiers don't count
00:43:56 <ehird> coppro: that's all yer gonna get
00:44:10 <ehird> I wonder if anyone's made a tablet whose pen's tip is actually a tiny ball that rolls around.
00:44:12 <ehird> it could be smoother
00:44:16 <pikhq> coppro: Sorry, by default in Tcl, the space is a token seperator.
00:44:19 <ehird> Also, there's an esolang on the wiki that's 100% agnostic to whitespace
00:44:29 <ehird> Written by a python guy tired of people complaining about it :)
00:44:37 <coppro> I can think of only one case in C, for instance, where you actually follow two identifiers one after the other
00:44:51 <ehird> coppro: type foo;?
00:44:58 <pikhq> Also, Glass lets you have have space in an identifier.
00:45:00 <ais523> Algol-68 didn't have consecutive identifiers anywhere IIRC
00:45:13 <ais523> possibly user-defined types, I'm not sure about that
00:45:14 <ehird> coppro: typedef butt ass;
00:45:22 <ais523> but it would have been ambiguous because it allowed spaces in identifiers
00:45:22 <pikhq> (multiple-character identifiers are bad style in Glass)
00:45:24 <coppro> ehird: that's technically a declaration
00:45:29 <ais523> also, it had italic and bold
00:45:31 <ehird> 00:44 coppro: I can think of only one case in C, for instance, where you actually follow two identifiers one after the other
00:45:33 <ehird> it's two identifiers
00:45:48 <ais523> ehird: yes, C's grammar is stupid, it treats typedef a b; the same way as static a b;
00:45:51 <ais523> so they're both the same case
00:46:12 <ais523> even though they're semantically completely different, they're gramattically the same
00:46:32 <coppro> Actually, they are semantically similar
00:46:41 <ehird> ais523: but with a typedef or static tag, surely
00:46:45 <coppro> typedef just indicates to declare a type, not an object
00:47:07 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting ← did anyone ever consider whether this is TC?
00:47:15 <ais523> what? I don't recognise that page
00:47:20 <ehird> (t if c else f) means (if c then t else f)
00:47:20 <ais523> or so old I never saw it?
00:47:22 <ehird> ais523: no, 2007 old
00:47:26 <ehird> remember blahbot`?
00:47:37 <ais523> I can't even remember what it did
00:47:53 <ehird> ais523: anyway, to explain the list of commands:
00:48:04 <ehird> CHARACTER tape description -> operation
00:48:20 <ehird> $ takes the top two elements and adds them
00:48:34 <ehird> ! considers the top element
00:48:52 <ehird> if it's 0, then it jumps to the third-from-top element thingy
00:49:01 <ehird> and # does some reshaping; obvious from the example
00:49:01 <ais523> the program's stored on the tape?
00:49:08 <ehird> see, that I don't remember
00:49:12 <ehird> i'll have to think
00:49:18 <ais523> or does it have some sort of mental line numbering?
00:49:29 <ehird> ais523: i'm thinking
00:49:43 <ehird> jumping to -1 is exiting (as well as exciting)
00:49:52 <ehird> we can conclude it's not stored on the tape
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00:49:58 <ehird> (more a stack really)
00:50:12 <ehird> but yeah it wasn't on the top
00:50:19 <ehird> ais523: i think it was just position
00:50:22 <ehird> it uses bignums, iirc
00:50:33 <ehird> you can only use visible characters, though, i think
00:50:38 <ehird> depends on the modulo/- logic
00:50:42 <ehird> so you'd have to add a bunch up
00:50:54 <ais523> could you use the tape as a queue, somehow?
00:50:59 <ehird> but, it has the ability to keep two bignums on the stack
00:51:12 <ehird> ais523: well, at least
00:51:14 <ehird> i'm trying to reduce it
00:51:25 <ehird> I think the TCness will hinge on # and !
00:51:35 <ehird> i'm not sure ! is enough on its own, but I think # and ! may be
00:51:38 <ehird> with $ to do conditional
00:51:50 <ehird> (adding stuff then jumping to it)
00:52:16 * ehird tries to figure out how # works
00:52:27 <ehird> the secondtopmost value is X
00:52:55 <ehird> it takes the Xmost element
00:52:58 <ehird> and moves it forwards Y places
00:53:13 <ehird> -1 removes it though
00:53:16 <ehird> so i'm not quite sure
00:53:34 <ehird> i shoulda commented better
00:53:39 <ehird> the implementation will be on the other machine
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00:56:16 <ehird> ais523: intuitively do you think it's TC or not?
00:56:31 <ais523> it doesn't look obviously non-TC
00:56:46 <ais523> and pretty much every lang which isn't obviously non-TC turns out to be TC
00:56:51 <ais523> excepting maybe Dupdog and Xigxag
00:56:55 <ehird> you can rearrange arbitrary bignums at will, add and subtract values destructively and non-destructively, and do a 100% malleable jump operation
00:57:12 <ehird> which seems pretty much TC to me
00:57:15 <ais523> that meets all 3 elements of the 'almost certainly TC' checklist
00:57:30 * Sgeo wants to hurt Firefox right now
00:57:30 <ais523> arbitrary access to infinite storage
00:57:35 <ais523> arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
00:57:36 <ehird> on the other hand, i expect programming in it would be excruciatingly difficult
00:57:39 <ais523> and whatever the third one was, too
00:57:42 <ehird> apart from really trivial stuff
00:57:49 <ais523> ehird: couldn't you translate a Minsky machine into it more or less directly?
00:57:54 <ehird> ais523: well, yes, but
00:57:55 <ehird> because of # referring to a position
00:58:03 <Sgeo> Why does Firefox take an eternity to load?
00:58:03 <ehird> if you need an extra char for your loop offset
00:58:06 <ehird> it increases by one
00:58:15 <ais523> that's just a linking step
00:58:15 <Sgeo> And I'm not using Firefox 3.5.0
00:58:16 <ehird> any change of the program length or rearrangement implies many others
00:58:21 <ehird> ais523: i'm talking about manually
00:58:37 <ehird> i'll have to prove it before i can agree
00:58:39 <ehird> but almost certainly
00:58:48 <ais523> people used to link by hand for ages, before assemblers were invented
01:00:00 <ehird> i'm quite proud of the language, it's very generic and orthogonal and the sheer mindbogglingness of organizing a program comes naturally
01:00:20 <ehird> I picked the name wapr before the official one
01:00:24 <ehird> then oklopol (I think) said he thought "Jumping to -1 is exiting." said "exciting" instead
01:00:38 <ehird> so i decided to do an INTERCAL and officially name it something completely different
01:01:34 <Sgeo> Is the wiki not working?
01:01:43 <ehird> it was but works now
01:04:38 <ehird> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Support-Should-Never-Be-Necessary.aspx
01:05:31 <ehird> -------------------------------------------------
01:05:32 <ehird> -------------------------------------------------
01:05:36 <ehird> "your getting than you used to be"
01:05:38 <ehird> (That's the entirety of the message from the client.)
01:05:42 <ehird> While it is unclear whether or not this is actually a complaint, what is
01:05:44 <ehird> clear is that the technician's "getting" is in some way different than the
01:05:46 <ehird> technician himself was at some point in the past.
01:05:50 <ehird> Each technician should take better care of his "getting", to ensure that
01:05:52 <ehird> it stops differing from how the technician used to be. That way, the
01:05:54 <ehird> technician will potentially be praised by the client with the commendation
01:05:56 <ehird> that, "your getting is now exactly the same as you are now". And those are
01:05:58 <ehird> the type of praises that result in raises.
01:09:35 <ehird> "When I use default iPod software[…]Why can't I edit filenames"
01:09:44 <ehird> This just in: people REALLY CARE about the internal filesystem of their MP3 players.
01:13:31 <coppro> long pase o channel :(
01:13:42 <ais523> ehird: doesn't actually surprise me
01:13:42 <coppro> *long paste to channel :(
01:13:45 <ehird> Long paste of channel.
01:13:46 <ais523> coppro: what's happened to your 't' key?
01:13:56 <ehird> ais523: which part?
01:14:00 <coppro> something got stuck under it
01:14:10 <ais523> ehird: people upset that they couldn't edit filenames on the iPod
01:14:31 <ehird> KDE is moving to Git.
01:15:10 <ehird> ais523: i believe the ipod uses filenames like ff34-fea5f-f845f-37fy745.mp3 anyway
01:15:21 <ehird> it might use 03 Track Name.mp3 but in GUID directories
01:15:23 <ehird> yeah, I think it's that
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01:15:33 <ehird> {35f45-f8234-f835j-fah45-c7wh4}/foo.mp3
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01:17:06 <ehird> ais523: I found the best page on the esolang wiki
01:17:11 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:5-logic
01:17:12 <ehird> [[There's no explanation as to why anyone would want to use this -T]]
01:17:19 <ehird> never has our philosophy been summed up more concisely
01:18:17 <ais523> or are you just random-page-surfing?
01:18:38 <ais523> you should reply, then
01:19:09 <ehird> but that'd destroy its beauty & simplicity
01:19:26 <ehird> it's an oasis of perfect, nay ideal, incomprehension at the wiki, that reflects the exact purpose of it!
01:21:38 <ehird> i wonder if you can get therapy for inability to use killfiles
01:21:46 <ehird> whenever i do anything of the sort, i always manually click to view every single message
01:21:49 <ehird> i just can't not :|
01:21:54 <ehird> it's irritating because i get more stupid in my bran
01:22:01 <ehird> although i guess you could put stupid in bran flakes
01:24:46 <Pthing> maybe you can get a pension for using "killfiles" old grampa USENET
01:25:06 * ehird is the oldest 13 year old ever
01:25:30 <ehird> (actually being the oldest N year old would be rather trivial; make sure nobody was born at the exact same time as you and voila, a split second before your birthday)
01:27:47 <pikhq> Also trivial is having been the youngest person alive.
01:28:56 * coppro would find it hard to believe that ehrid is 13... but...
01:29:44 <pikhq> I don't; I remember me at 13.
01:30:19 <ehird> coppro: ehrid is an ex-partnership; Quazie seemed to refer to em a lot.
01:30:22 <ehird> perhaps you mean ehird?
01:30:30 <ehird> also, consider me vaguely offended or somesuch.
01:30:44 <coppro> pikhq: yes, that's precisely the same thought I have
01:30:56 <ehird> it wasn't calling me immature (well ok it could be that too)
01:30:59 <ehird> vaguely unoffended!
01:31:13 <ehird> let's go with vaguely neutral.
01:31:20 <coppro> then we need to destroy you
01:31:29 <coppro> we all know the problem with neutrals
01:32:36 <coppro> granted, I didn't spend quite as much of my time with programming theory
01:33:03 <ehird> i blame having a computer at 3 and the interwebs at 5
01:33:12 <ehird> (well, more thank than blame)
01:33:33 <coppro> for the most part, that describes my life too
01:33:49 <ehird> yeah, but the internet was well-formed when i got on
01:34:25 * coppro really needs to pick up a book on formal language theory
01:35:14 <pikhq> Freaking gigantic.
01:35:50 <coppro> books >>> everything else
01:42:51 <pikhq> Well, that's a decent idea (though I think that this channel would do a nice job of teaching that)
01:43:08 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar with at least the basics of formal language theory, after all.
01:44:04 <coppro> But I like reading books
01:44:45 <coppro> (and, as you may have noticed me mention, I discovered my public library card gives me limited access to the local university library)
01:47:25 <coppro> [18:44:03]But I like reading books <-- does not apply to PDFs, unless I waste a ton of money printing them
01:47:30 <coppro> and getting them bound
01:48:38 <ehird> get an ebook reader foo
01:52:52 <ehird> pikhq: http://stephenmann.net/2009/07/17/cool-haskell-function/
01:53:38 <ehird> :t pair . (map f *** id) . unpair
02:22:07 <Sgeo> Is InstantDjango a decent way of playing with Django?
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04:28:39 <coppro> straw poll: a language spec says that a side-effect of a function is to increase (not increment) a variable. Does this mean the increase has to be by one, or can it be arbitrary?
04:29:36 <pikhq> I believe that setting a variable to infinity is a valid interpretation.
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05:12:58 <immibis> for those of us without utf-8
05:16:31 <pikhq> immibis: The lack of UTF-8 is a crime.
05:56:53 <immibis> anyone explain what that says?
05:58:20 <pikhq> Y̅o̅u̅ ̅s̅u̅c̅k̅,̅ ̅I̅ ̅b̅e̅l̅i̅e̅v̅e̅…̅
06:02:06 <immibis> it appears to me as "You suck, I believe", except with `I... between characters (`I represents I with ` above it)
06:03:54 <pikhq> Enter the 90s, man!
06:04:08 <immibis> well this client works for everything else
06:04:20 <immibis> apart from having randomly placed blue gradients
06:04:26 <pikhq> The lack of Unicode is a fundamental flaw.
06:04:40 <immibis> oh and being written in vb, but i don't need to know that to use it
06:05:09 <pikhq> You really need to enter the 21st century.
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06:07:57 <pikhq> For, þou ſeeſt, Unicode be all powerful, and þy client is not. Doeſt þou comprehend?
06:15:28 <immibis> For, thou eet, Unicode will be all powerful and thy client is not. Doet thou comprehend? <-- ?
06:15:47 <immibis> copy-pasting the text into google tells me that it means
06:16:44 <pikhq> Also, how did þorn turn into th?
06:17:06 <immibis> i guessed, it fits the words and the sentence
06:17:11 <immibis> For, thou seest, Unicode will be all powerful, and thy client is not. Doest thou comprehend? <-- makes sense
06:17:32 <pikhq> And why art þou adding "will" to yonder ſentence?
06:17:43 <pikhq> Keep in mind that this is a channel where long s and diaresis are in common use. You need some Unicode.
06:18:03 <pikhq> Especially if we get to a discussion of, say, reëntrant code or some such.
06:21:24 <immibis> i can tell that re(a~)(<<)ntrant code means reentrant code
06:21:49 <pikhq> WHY DO YOU ACCEPT MOJIBAKE‽
06:22:37 <pikhq> Enter the 21st century. ASCII is dead.
06:22:47 <pikhq> (really: not even Windows is using it any more)
06:30:04 <Warrigal> Hey, I forgot that I was capitalizing all my Nouns today.
06:30:17 <Warrigal> And I'm assuming that "today" is a Pronoun or an Adverb or something. :-P
06:30:42 <Warrigal> Hey, Wiktionary says it is an Adverb.
06:31:43 <Warrigal> I suddenly feel like I shouldn't be using the Word "hey" so much.
06:33:22 <immibis> Why Are You Capitalizing All Your nouns Today?
06:33:34 <Warrigal> Because that's what People used to do.
06:33:41 <Warrigal> People who speak German still do it.
06:34:11 <Warrigal> It makes what I write kind of resemble something written long ago.
06:34:56 <Warrigal> Capitalizing other Stuff just makes you contrary. :-P
06:34:58 <pikhq> You can ſee this in the Constitution, where the founding Fathers uſed it in their Writing.
06:35:54 <pikhq> And yes, they alſo uſed long S.
06:36:11 <Warrigal> Of course, you can always do this elsewise, and simply not use those things at all.
06:36:17 <pikhq> Shame that I am finding it difficult to uſe Nouns. :P
06:36:30 <Warrigal> Look, nothing in what I'm writing now is either common or proper.
06:36:41 <Warrigal> It's sometimes easier to not use them than to use them.
06:36:59 <Warrigal> Those who speak more concretely probably find them more useful than those who speak more abstractly.
06:38:29 <Warrigal> I guess it is kind of difficult to talk about them without using them, seeing as how one can't well define them without using them.
06:41:10 <Warrigal> Clearly, we ʃould always capitalize all our Nouns and also use Greek Letters instead of digraφs.
06:41:37 <Warrigal> You know, ſ and ʃ are not necessarily very easy to distinguiʃ between.
06:42:10 <Warrigal> Ʃall I set þe Topic to say "HOLY ƩIT"?
06:44:22 <Warrigal> No, Digraφs. It is very important to preserve etymological Stuff.
06:44:55 <Warrigal> Like þe Distinction between c and k.
06:45:26 <Warrigal> Þough I am planning to mess some of þat up by using Diacritics.
06:46:50 <Warrigal> Þə qwick brown Fox jumps ōvər þə lāzē Dôg.
06:48:02 * coppro considers /ignore Warrigal
06:48:37 * pikhq considers /ignore ASCII heathens
06:49:02 <Warrigal> Now, þat Sentənç sēmd wrông. Evrē Vowəl wəs ə Sĉwo.
06:49:49 <Warrigal> I really should find a dialect in which short u and schwa are more clearly distinguished.
06:50:07 <coppro> pikhq: nothing against Unicode. Something against trying your best to use foreign letters and diacritics to speak
06:51:44 <pikhq> coppro: My uſage of ſ, þ, and ̈ is not exactly foreign.
06:51:56 <pikhq> 'Tis merely archaic.
06:52:04 <coppro> Warrigal, on the other hand...
06:52:20 <pikhq> He's merely fiddling with ſpelling reform.
06:52:50 <coppro> btw, Warrigal, you forgot å and ø
06:53:12 <Warrigal> No, I just didn't have use for them. :-P
06:53:50 <Warrigal> pikhq: am I doing anything in particular wrong?
06:54:57 <pikhq> Warrigal: You have 26 letters to work with. Go!
06:55:13 <coppro> There is nå wøy to stop their use!
06:55:52 <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav tə stop mī Dīgraph rəplāçmənt. :-P
06:56:13 <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt. :-P
06:56:33 <immibis> If anyone has a list showing conversions from Unicode characters to the closest ASCII character that would be useful for my script
06:57:45 <pikhq> Delete your client.
06:57:52 <pikhq> It is a pox on the Internet.
06:57:58 <pikhq> It's like using IE4.
06:58:22 <pikhq> Fucking netcat would be an improvement.
06:58:23 <immibis> Must be free, run on windows and support scripting (any language)
06:59:39 <pikhq> But, yeah; Emacs has an IRC client.
07:00:29 <pikhq> I'm just naming clients off the top of my head, BTW.
07:00:49 <Warrigal> That seems to be free and run on windows and support scripting and have a GUI.
07:01:09 <Warrigal> Though the platform isn't Windows but Mozilla or something.
07:03:47 <pikhq> The platform is XUL.
07:35:24 <immibis> can someone repeat one of the earlier lines including utf-8 characters so i can test this script
07:36:20 <fizzie> immibis: <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt
07:39:21 <immibis> [18:36] <fizzie> immibis: <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt
07:39:21 <immibis> [18:36] immibis: <Warrigal> SO i'll hav t stop mI DIgraph rplAmnt
07:40:05 <Warrigal> Just removing the diacritics would result in "So I'll hav t stop mi Digraph rplacmnt".
07:40:37 <fizzie> iconv -f utf8 -t ascii//translit: "So I'll hav t stop mi Digraph rplacmnt". That's pretty much what it does there.
07:41:29 <Warrigal> fizzie: what does that do to φ and ə?
07:41:38 <immibis> Why does [18:41] fizzie: what does that do to ? and ??
07:41:54 <immibis> as i said, i only implemented latin extended-a and latin extended-b
07:42:36 <fizzie> It's a bit silly; it does ? even for Greek uppercase alpha (Α) even though they could really use A there. I guess they've just decided that the whole Greek block is ?.
07:42:59 <immibis> this is windows - i don't have any command line tools such as iconv
07:43:01 <immibis> [18:42] It's a bit silly; it does ? even for Greek uppercase alpha (?) even though they could really use A there. I guess they've just decided that the whole Greek block is ?.
07:43:41 <Warrigal> Tell them ə should be @ for me. :-P
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08:46:18 <Deewiant> http://comonad.com/haskell/remorse-1.0/remorse.hs
08:47:09 * coppro wonders if it is possible to express an indentation grammar in EBNF
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08:51:14 <coppro> of course, if you have your lexer create indentation tokens, then you can
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09:05:38 <Deewiant> immibis: ( edwardk) that was written by malcolm wallace and won the 0th annual IOHCC competition
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11:42:06 -!- ehird has set topic: HOLY SHIT: MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON — The Onion, Monday, July 21, 1969 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
11:43:13 <ehird> 05:58 pikhq: Xchat.
11:43:13 <ehird> 05:59 immibis: Not free on Windows.
11:43:14 <ehird> immibis: Silverex, stupid
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11:56:48 * ehird has a mouse that works better if you blow the top of it
12:00:38 <ehird> AnMaster: it makes it conduct electricity better; it's a mighty-mouse, so that's important for the circuit underneath to recognize which side my finger is on
12:00:57 <ehird> thus, blowing on to the top of the mouth temporarily makes right clicks more reliable (my mighty mouse has taken a lot of beating so it kinda sucks)
12:01:13 <AnMaster> ehird, just once in a while or very often?
12:01:32 <ehird> it wears off in like less than a minute
12:01:40 <AnMaster> btw, I guess there is no warranty? Products usually start having problems after the warranty only...
12:01:52 <ehird> oh there's a warranty, from december 2006 :P
12:02:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that ended by now then?
12:02:12 <ehird> it ended a year after it begun.
12:02:20 <ehird> got a keyboard replaced with it tho
12:02:27 <ehird> they gave me a different layout tho :D
12:02:36 <ehird> (US instead of UK, but that's fine)
12:02:55 <ehird> also keycaps were italics instead of straight, and uppercase instead of — iirc — lowercase, and the graphic on the option key changed. iirc.
12:08:15 <AnMaster> The university I'm starting at this autumn seems to have some issues with their website:
12:08:29 <AnMaster> * Self signed certs for creating account with mismatching domain name
12:08:41 <AnMaster> I can only hope they will fix it soon.
12:08:57 <ehird> people don't watch those things
12:09:00 <ehird> every uni website has 404s
12:09:08 <ehird> and certificates are very often fucked up
12:09:17 <AnMaster> ehird, for the instruction for connecting to WLAN? https://shib1.oru.se/account/startnet/Wlan_windowsXP.pdf
12:09:28 <AnMaster> not sure if the cert works on that page...
12:09:41 <ehird> https://shib1.oru.se/account/index.jsp
12:09:43 <ehird> maybe you have to sign in.
12:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: safari recognizes it as no-cert
12:09:58 <AnMaster> ehird, ah no, can't do that, there is another 404 that prevents me creating an account...
12:10:10 <ehird> it doesn't present it as a secure site
12:10:15 <ehird> no indication of a certificate etc
12:10:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well true. But it is https, and that means there is a cert. Except a broken one.
12:10:41 <ehird> prolly works in IE
12:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well my laptop will be delivered on Monday or so. It will have "Vista Bullshit Edition" err I meant "Business"
12:11:55 <ehird> AnMaster: heh, unlucky you; in a few months everything'll be 7
12:12:05 <ehird> although i think manufacturers are offering free upgrades to 7 for people who get suckered or sth
12:12:09 <AnMaster> ehird, so? I won't run vista much
12:12:20 <ehird> i don't think you realise quite how horrific vista is to use
12:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I never used anything newer than xp
12:12:44 <AnMaster> anyway, I'm going to install xp under virtualbox I guess.
12:13:17 <AnMaster> oh btw about xp... I wonder what will happen to those "activation" key thingies in the future. Will it be possible to activate XP in 25 years for example?
12:14:04 <AnMaster> ehird, how bad/good is 7? I haven't followed the discussion
12:14:23 <ehird> like, better than XP.
12:15:04 <AnMaster> anyway. I wonder which distro I shall use...
12:15:11 <ehird> vista internal reworkings + dropping some backwards compatibility (anything that worked on vista still works, so... just about anything; this may have been by mistake, but) + making the UI nicer + lots and lots of speed improvements
12:15:48 <AnMaster> ehird, dropping backwards compat? So XP stuff might break?
12:15:56 <ehird> XP stuff that doesn't run on Vista.
12:15:58 <AnMaster> can you run office XP on vista btw? Just wondering.
12:16:02 <ehird> i.e., nothing + epsilon.
12:16:14 <ehird> AnMaster: there's no such thing as office xp
12:16:28 <AnMaster> I thought it was some software called that first
12:16:48 <ehird> oh wait, office xp does exist
12:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I have the box somewhere even I think
12:17:18 <ehird> i'm not sure why you'd want to run office, but
12:17:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't... But I don't know what I will need for uni. And openoffice is quite painful
12:18:11 <ehird> AnMaster: re arch — bwahaha! "For this course we will be using Python. Please install Python now." "# emerge python" (5 minutes pass) "Okay, now start up Python. If you're using Windows, you can…" "Compiling dependency5467 (24%)… (25%)…" (tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock) "Okay, and that about wraps it up for today!" "Compiling… 100%" "# "
12:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I will have to check what formats they accept. But if possible I will probably use latex
12:18:19 <ehird> (i.e. arch as opposed to gentoo)
12:18:25 <ehird> AnMaster: render latex to pdf, dood
12:18:27 <ehird> like everyone else :P
12:18:40 <AnMaster> since emerge is a python script
12:18:48 <ehird> sheesh i spent all that time writing that joke and you have to go trample on it :D
12:18:53 <AnMaster> but that specific example didn't work very well :P
12:18:54 <ehird> well ok i wrote it in a few seconds
12:18:56 <ehird> mostly transcription
12:19:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also you clearly never used emerge... :P
12:19:27 <AnMaster> since that output was unrealistic :D
12:19:36 <AnMaster> anyway I'm going for arch probably yes
12:19:43 <ehird> thankfully i never have
12:20:31 <AnMaster> debian probably have more packages
12:20:39 <AnMaster> I'm so not going to use debian
12:21:07 <AnMaster> and yes I'm referring to things like the ssh key fuckup for example.
12:21:15 <ehird> yes, that was a huge fuckup
12:21:22 <ehird> it's also the only one in debian's whole history
12:21:32 <ehird> of 14 years at the time
12:21:40 <AnMaster> ehird, also I read on thinkwiki about issues with debian patched kernels and thinkpad ultrabays
12:21:49 <AnMaster> because they patch it to use the old driver
12:21:51 <ehird> if debian were me, i'd have never made a mistake or been angry now :P
12:22:05 <ehird> AnMaster: how old's that page?
12:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well I checked the bug report. it was still marked as "open" for 2.6.27 kernel
12:22:51 <AnMaster> but I don't have the page open atm
12:24:03 <AnMaster> anyway. arch have a policy of not patching unless it is a patch from upstream or very very urgent and important. So it tends to follow upstream pretty closely
12:24:29 <AnMaster> I'm definitely going for a vanilla kernel anyway
12:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the differences between 64-bit on Intel and AMD? IIRC there is something like one or two instructions that differ. Like Intel not having one and AMD not having another?
12:26:22 <AnMaster> (this excludes all SSE* and such)
12:26:28 <ehird> no, i don't think that's true.
12:26:42 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it was only early Intel ones that were affected
12:27:19 <ehird> AnMaster: amd laptops are basically a bad idea, though; the power consumption and heat output is just too much
12:27:38 <AnMaster> ehird, my sempron doesn't run hot however :P
12:27:50 <ehird> AnMaster: that's because it has a big heatsink on top of it
12:27:54 <ehird> that, even without a fan, is thicker than a laptop.
12:29:19 <AnMaster> ah yes the LAHF and SAHF instructions
12:29:30 <AnMaster> but Intel added it in December 2005
12:30:24 <AnMaster> LAHF: Load Status Flags into AH Register
12:30:45 <AnMaster> I have no idea why this is useful
12:30:55 <ehird> core 2 (based on Core architecture) was released in 2006 and that was, iirc, their first consumer-level 64-bit chip
12:31:10 <ehird> i think pentium 4-based Xeons got it first or something like months before but nobody used them.
12:31:15 <AnMaster> Loads the SF, ZF, AF, PF, and CF flags of the EFLAGS register with values from the corresponding
12:31:15 <AnMaster> bits in the AH register (bits 7, 6, 4, 2, and 0, respectively). The instruction ignores bits 1, 3, and 5 of
12:31:15 <AnMaster> register AH; it sets those bits in the EFLAGS register to 1, 0, and 0, respectively.
12:31:19 <ehird> so not gonna be a problem
12:32:49 <AnMaster> oh I think it means you can set/read several status flags in one go
12:33:29 * ehird reads how about korean politics revolve around physically fighting the other party to stop laws being passed: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/93pt7/korean_parliament_erupts_in_allout_brawl_over/c0bbip6
12:33:39 <ehird> fuck democracy, this is clearly better
12:33:59 <ehird> http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2009/07/22/GYH2009072200100004400_P2.jpg ← i can't believe the news would actually make this :D
12:34:17 <ehird> "here's a quick summary of today's parliamental fight!"
12:34:52 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the red explosion like thingies?
12:35:16 <ehird> i hope red explosions, but probably people hitting each other.
12:35:44 <ehird> tactical grenades!
12:35:51 <AnMaster> one of the comments: "Basically, this is just a Korean version of filibuster, nothing more." <-- heh
12:36:04 <AnMaster> yeah filibusters are pretty undemocratic too
12:36:23 <ehird> filibusters are perfectly democratic
12:36:26 <ehird> it's just a different type of vote
12:37:05 <AnMaster> "And after each brawl, some media outlets will show the battle maps and each parties' strategic notes and explain where the turning point in the battle was." <-- crazy...
12:37:15 <AnMaster> it's like they considered it pretty normal and sane...
12:37:37 <ehird> presumably they have been doing it for many decades
12:37:41 <ehird> or at least some years
12:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, sure this isn't a hoax?
12:38:28 <ehird> AnMaster: the video of the brawl is from the Guardian
12:38:33 <ehird> and the pamphlet seems real
12:38:38 <ehird> and his story is consistent
12:38:43 <ehird> and he's commenting a lot about it in reply
12:38:49 <ehird> prolly true. ask lifthrasiir.
12:40:51 <AnMaster> is it only US that has filibustering?
12:40:53 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway there are worse things than filibusters; e.g. http://www.wellstone.org/about-us/pass-wellstone-bill — which was part of… the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. The bailout. "Pass this fluffy bill! It's awesome! Please don't look at what's stapled to it."
12:41:11 <ehird> AnMaster: the article has sections for ancient rome, UK, US, Canada and France
12:42:35 <ehird> also, far too often the real laws and changes are buried in sub-paragraph in a sub-list of a section about a totally irrelevant piece of minutiae
12:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't figure out what the bill is really about from that link... "treat mental illness the same as physical illness" is pretty vague... In what respect would they be the same?
12:43:15 <ehird> you can't vote against such a fluffy, feel-good bill
12:43:21 <ehird> or everyone hates you for being evil
12:43:23 <ehird> so you have to vote for the bailout.
12:43:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what was bundled with it, did you say?
12:43:35 <ehird> AnMaster: it was bundled in the bailout.
12:43:59 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems very odd. Since they are unrelated
12:44:07 <AnMaster> is it really legal to do that?
12:44:07 <ehird> AnMaster: it's very simple
12:44:17 <ehird> if you vote against this act, you hate mentally ill people and are evil and kill puppies, obviously
12:44:25 <ehird> you have to vote for the bailout
12:44:35 <ehird> …thus ensuring that the bailout passes.
12:44:47 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it's legal, [[12:42 ehird: also, far too often the real laws and changes are buried in sub-paragraph in a sub-list of a section about a totally irrelevant piece of minutiae]] is also legal and it's how all the legislation is done
12:44:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I mean... is it *legal* to bundle two unrelated issues into one voting session (or whatever it is called)
12:44:58 <ehird> their constitution forbids it
12:45:00 <ehird> and I dunno non-US places
12:45:07 <ehird> but in the US, everything goes through that
12:45:38 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure I haven't heard about this happening in Sweden. That doesn't mean it didn't happen though...
12:46:12 <ehird> dammit zzo38 soiled the beautiful incomprehension of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:5-logic
12:49:12 <ehird> everything zzo says is zzo
12:53:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: You can use fstsw+sahf to dump the x87 FPU status flags to the (low-order bytes of) EFLAGS registers, and then use the normal conditional jumps and such for logic, instead of manually examining different bits.
12:54:00 <fizzie> I guess for actual eflags-saving/restoring pushf/popf are more used.
12:55:37 <fizzie> As for other uses, the interwebs seem to suggest they're mostly a 8080 pseudo-compatibility relic.
12:55:55 <ehird> 8080 compatibility, 64-bit edition :D
12:56:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, they were *added* on x86_64...
12:56:56 <fizzie> Lahf/sahf most definitely weren't. Well, according to the pages I've seen on the topic, anyway. Hell, they're in the "Original 8086/8088 instructions" list of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_instruction_listings
12:57:32 <AnMaster> "The SAHF instruction can only be executed in 64-bit mode if supported by the processor
12:57:32 <AnMaster> implementation. Check the status of ECX bit 0 returned by CPUID function 8000_0001h to verify that
12:57:32 <AnMaster> the processor supports SAHF in 64-bit mode.
12:57:50 <AnMaster> maybe available only in 32 bit mode before?
12:57:55 <fizzie> I think what was added was LAHF/SAHF support in 64-bit mode, yes. Maybe.
12:59:35 <AnMaster> I was wonderign why loading web pages was so slow suddenly and then realised I had just started downloading archlinux iso by bittorrent...
13:05:35 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/8zv9i/god_is_imaginary_50_simple_proofs/c0ayww3
13:05:36 <ehird> "Athiests and followers of man made religions will get the biggest shock of their lives when they die."
13:05:41 <ehird> "followers of man made religions will get the biggest shock of their lives when they die."
13:05:51 <ehird> I guess his was gifted to him by a zombie :-P
13:08:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
13:08:36 -!- puzzlet has joined.
13:12:57 <ehird> 14 Then I said, "Not so, Sovereign LORD! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth."
13:12:58 <ehird> 15 "Very well," he said, "I will let you bake your bread over cow manure instead of human excrement."
13:13:20 <ehird> You're a really swell guy, yaknow.
13:35:28 -!- oklopol has joined.
13:35:56 <oklopol> i gave it crowd another try, and that supernerd is actually pretty funny.
13:36:33 <oklopol> "you just won employee of the month" "i don't belive it!" "please believe it"
13:36:35 <ehird> oh snap → osnap → oklopol
13:36:49 <ehird> for advancement of the human race↗
13:37:02 <oklopol> i'm assuming you can supply the context that makes that funny yourself
13:37:05 <ehird> and for upper-right-pointing arrows↗
13:37:15 <oklopol> wait, are you people talking
13:37:24 <AnMaster> ↗ <--- why is this half as tall as lower case e one of the times but next time equally tall?
13:37:35 <ehird> i'm not committing suicide oklopol
13:37:38 <ehird> i don't care if you want me to hang myself
13:37:49 <ehird> AnMaster: um it's just an arrow pointing up ^ and right >
13:38:05 <oklopol> ehird: it seems you have some serious context supplying skill.
13:38:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. just rendering issue then...
13:38:16 <ehird> AnMaster: A↗ the arrow should be a little taller
13:38:22 <ehird> oklopol: do i do i do i do
13:38:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the arrow there is about as high as "e" and about the same placement
13:38:47 <ehird> AnMaster: use a proportional font :P
13:39:30 <ehird> nescience: plz put myndzi back, we need \o/ completion :(
13:39:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the unbenefits outweigh(sp?) the benefits
13:39:42 <AnMaster> (and yeah I forgot the right word for "unbenefit")
13:39:50 <oklopol> ehird: anyway, while you're correct in that it has a very bad return, it's still one of the most probable ways to get a million without working
13:40:01 <ehird> oklopol: wwwwwwhat?
13:40:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> nescience: plz put myndzi back, we need \o/ completion :( <-- only if it isn't broken this time....
13:40:10 <ehird> AnMaster: NO i like broken
13:40:27 <ehird> oklopol: you kinda didn't say lottery
13:40:29 <ehird> oklopol: or anything
13:40:29 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway what is the right word.
13:40:33 <ehird> AnMaster: unbenefits
13:40:45 <ehird> nah i'm kidding :)
13:40:46 <oklopol> that was in my buffer of paused conversations
13:40:56 <oklopol> and because of the context thing
13:40:56 <AnMaster> disadvantage vs. advantage but for benefit?
13:41:00 <oklopol> i thought i'd just say it.
13:41:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that sounds like a joke too
13:41:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not...
13:41:18 <ehird> oklopol: i think there are more probable ways
13:41:33 <ehird> like, trying every single "free" ipod thing and selling them on ebay
13:41:53 <ehird> oklopol: it's a very trivial kind of work
13:41:56 <ehird> most of it can be scripted
13:41:58 <oklopol> lottery = call my dad and say "can you put a few rows for me"
13:42:02 <ehird> the whole ebay part can be scripted
13:42:10 <ehird> it's just clicking a few things for the referring shit
13:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you are right, but it is so disusual that the first three hits on google are dictionaries and similar.
13:42:27 <ehird> AnMaster: wait am I right? I was bullshitting
13:42:42 <ehird> oklopol: anyway it'll probably be way better than the lottery and you can just do it while you're bored
13:42:44 <ehird> nothing has 0 work
13:43:05 <ehird> oklopol: mebbe try one of those "click ads for money" thing actually, that's easier and appears to give money, if only minor amounts
13:43:15 <ehird> i mean if you can hit the counter all day you can click all day :D
13:43:39 <oklopol> i'm talking about getting a million.
13:43:44 <ehird> oklopol: yes, and?
13:43:51 <ehird> with the ads you're certain to get a million if you just keep clicking
13:43:57 <ehird> with a lottery, the odds are astronomically unlikely
13:44:07 <ehird> and just clicking a lot isn't much work at all
13:44:08 <oklopol> you have a distorted opinion of little work
13:44:14 <AnMaster> ehird, seems to be used mostly in jargon...[1] [1] Quick glance at first page of results from googling the word.
13:44:21 <oklopol> for me, opening the browser is a bit too much work.
13:44:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> with a lottery, the odds are astronomically unlikely <ehird> and just clicking a lot isn't much work at all <-- intentional joke on "lot"?
13:44:56 <ehird> i wish those ad clickers didn't have "no bots" in their TOS
13:45:00 <ehird> it'd be so much more profitable
13:45:19 <oklopol> well, even though i might be just as insane as you, only in the other direction, i'm pretty sure no one considers getting a million by clicking on ads "little work".
13:45:41 <ehird> oklopol: well yeah it isn't, but the amount of numbers you'd have to pick on the lottery is far more work considering the odds
13:45:46 <ehird> than mindlessly clicking a whole bunch
13:45:50 <ehird> (less than the lottery)
13:46:09 <oklopol> i can just ask python for the numbers
13:46:13 <ehird> 13:41 oklopol: lottery = call my dad and say "can you put a few rows for me"
13:46:19 <ehird> which doesn't actually make it less work
13:46:22 <ehird> you could get someone else to click for you too
13:46:25 <AnMaster> ehird, what about writing an extremely popular book instead?
13:46:26 <ehird> but that's not the point
13:46:33 <ehird> AnMaster: probably more likely than the lottery
13:46:36 <oklopol> anyway, i'm fairly sure it's at least a year of work, pretty much non stop, to get a million from clicking ads
13:46:39 <AnMaster> unless I ununderstood the topic.
13:46:41 <ehird> also books don't pay thaaaaaaat well
13:46:53 <AnMaster> ehird, coiunterexample: J. K. Rowling?
13:47:07 <ehird> AnMaster: countercounterexample: 99% of all authors ever
13:47:21 <ehird> oklopol: same for lottery tickets, except replace clicking with picking numbers or pressing enter to get more numbers
13:47:30 <ehird> and also prolly far more of that, due to the odds
13:47:36 <oklopol> ehird: you have to pick the numbers once
13:47:44 <ehird> oklopol: what, and reuse them all the time?
13:47:48 <oklopol> making the account takes at most 5 minutes
13:47:49 <ehird> you still have to click on the site
13:47:59 <oklopol> you have to do that *once*
13:48:02 <ehird> at least the same work, almost certainly more due to odds
13:48:14 <AnMaster> wouldn't that be more expensive than winning?
13:48:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: basically ehird is saying it.
13:48:31 <AnMaster> well, depends on what the tickets are for
13:48:48 <oklopol> it's easier to click a million's worth of ads than making an account for the lottery
13:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, thought you meant add-clicking
13:48:57 <ehird> a lottery ticket in this country nets you £-1
13:49:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, wow... they must have some seriously complicated question on the sign up form!
13:49:11 <ehird> (there are other cases but they're so statistically improbable to be irrelevant)
13:49:24 <ehird> oklopol: lol freudian slip
13:49:36 <ehird> AnMaster: "Is the Riemann hypothesis true? Provide a proof written in Coq."
13:49:44 <ehird> oklopol: 13:48 oklopol: it's easier to click a million's worth of ads than making an account for the lottery
13:49:58 <ehird> Slereah: you're the 5 billionth person to make that joke.
13:50:02 <oklopol> ehird: i was continuing the sentence
13:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah or: "location of key you lost 15 years ago"
13:50:11 <oklopol> but i now realize the sentence made sense as it was :D
13:50:17 <oklopol> especially as i always put the period first.
13:50:24 <Slereah> I just wanted to belong :(
13:50:44 <AnMaster> augh that was a horrible joke Slereah
13:50:59 <oklopol> ehird: but seriously, how much do ads pay, i mean is it even physically possible to get a million?
13:51:14 <ehird> oklopol: well they're pyramid schemes ofc but
13:51:28 <oklopol> i have no idea how the ad-clicking stuff works
13:51:39 <ehird> oklopol: from bux.to: "10 ad clicks a day = $0.10; 20 referrals click 10 ads a day = $2.00; blah blah earnings; monthly earnings = $63"
13:51:43 <ehird> ofc the hard part is 20 referral
13:51:46 <ehird> spam irc channels or sth :P
13:52:03 <ehird> so with that baseline, it'd take 1,322.75 years
13:52:12 <oklopol> how much can you get a day, from one source?
13:52:23 <ehird> infinite i'm pretty sure
13:52:28 <oklopol> well naturally it has to be in the next 10 years or so
13:52:30 <ehird> AnMaster: we're just doing hypotheticals
13:52:36 <ehird> let's say we click 1000 ads a day instead
13:52:42 <ehird> and 50 referrals click 20
13:52:46 <ehird> you know, being optimistic
13:52:51 <ehird> 50 clicking 20 isn't too optimistic
13:52:57 <ehird> but it's moreso than the 1000 a day
13:53:13 <ehird> so that's $100 a day just by our 1000 clicks
13:53:16 <oklopol> 1000 a day is already more work than making the lottery account
13:53:28 <oklopol> just to make sure you still know you're making no sense
13:53:29 <ehird> $100 by our 50 clicking 20
13:53:56 <oklopol> 6000 a month will never get you to a million
13:54:05 <ehird> oklopol: yes it will, in 13 years
13:54:25 <ehird> but hey how much is your lottery getting you
13:54:47 <oklopol> anyway, a thousand clicks a day for 13 years?
13:54:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about probability of winning instead of just making that account
13:54:53 <oklopol> how is that not much work :D
13:55:03 <ehird> oklopol: well ok if we want to do it in 10 years
13:55:07 <ehird> we need $8,333/year
13:55:13 <oklopol> AnMaster: we're talking about easy ways to get a million, not sure ways to get it
13:55:18 <ehird> it'll be much less... worky to refer rather than click
13:55:22 <ehird> since your referral clicks without you
13:55:28 <ehird> and you can like spam google wit hblogs
13:55:30 <oklopol> i'm just saying if you don't want to work your ass off, lottery is one of the most probably ways to get rich
13:55:33 <ehird> (I'm not taking ethics into account here)
13:55:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm ok. Is there anything more than that account? Like clicking "buy a ticket"?
13:55:52 <oklopol> AnMaster: make the account, put money on it
13:57:12 <oklopol> i just really don't see how spamming stuff on blogs every day and clicking on ads every day is more work than setting up an account once, and putting money on it a few times a year
13:57:15 <ehird> oklopol: we click 280 times a day, and have 250 referrers click 10 times each
13:57:27 <oklopol> i guess you have to check whether you won every week
13:57:28 <ehird> = 1mil in 10 years
13:57:34 <oklopol> but the rules let us only do that once as well
13:57:35 <ehird> oklopol: i'm not going for easy in this case
13:57:37 <ehird> you said is it even possible
13:57:38 <oklopol> because it's not about the probability
13:57:47 <ehird> and i'm saying yes
13:57:57 <ehird> oklopol: Availability Limited! Packages with 15, 35, 100 and 500 referrals are available now.
13:58:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, spamming on blogs is evil.
13:58:11 <oklopol> not going for easy? then why not get a job
13:58:15 <ehird> 500 referrals clicking 10 = $50
13:58:20 <ehird> my maths is broken methinks
13:58:22 <oklopol> anyone can get a million by working
13:58:25 <ehird> AnMaster: 13:55 ehird: (I'm not taking ethics into account here)
13:58:36 <ehird> oklopol: not in 10 years if you don't have any skillz
13:58:53 <ehird> ofc the main issue with bux.to and the like is, well
13:58:54 <ehird> http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/buxto.jpg
13:58:57 <ehird> they generally, you know
13:59:15 <ehird> but it's a total pyramid scheme
13:59:21 <ehird> nobody ethical would participate in a pyramid scheme anyway
13:59:29 <ehird> i think bux.to is perfectly legal.
13:59:34 <ehird> it doesn't HAVE to be a pyramid scheme
13:59:40 <ehird> you just won't earn more than peanuts if you don't treat it as one
13:59:54 <oklopol> maybe not in pyramid schemes where most people don't know they are pyramid schemes
14:00:00 <oklopol> but as a form of gamble, why not
14:00:16 <ehird> bux.to would never admit they're a pyramid scheme
14:00:55 <ehird> they will never be able to pay insane amounts
14:01:04 <ehird> advertisers aren't really interested in giving ads to people who will close it immediately
14:01:07 <ehird> and are just doing it to get cash
14:01:11 <ehird> because they won't look at the product
14:01:49 <ehird> otoh it would be nice to have a few more $k lying around and then give up on it
14:02:10 <ehird> they've paid plenty of people.
14:02:16 <oklopol> k's are boring, i want M's
14:02:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/buxto.jpg
14:02:19 <ehird> just not if you earn too much, and sporadically
14:02:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: no i'm not short on cash
14:02:28 <ehird> because of cashflow issues
14:02:42 <oklopol> i have enough to live, and if i wanted stuff, i'd have money to buy it
14:02:45 <ehird> you can just build up a few $k — but not too much — wait until they have some cash
14:02:47 <ehird> and then jump ship
14:02:51 <oklopol> of course, if i was someone who liked stuff, i probably wouldn't have money
14:08:57 <ehird> wow ram is really cheap
14:13:19 <oklopol> so i was going to google number conversion, and wrote gonger in the url
14:14:11 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i have enough to live, and if i wanted stuff, i'd have money to buy it <-- whatever that thing is?
14:14:21 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion
14:14:24 * AnMaster considers oklopol wanting the Golden gate bridge
14:14:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: you asked if i was short on money
14:14:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, that was ages ago yes
14:14:39 * ehird considers oklopol buying a computer. for me.
14:14:41 <oklopol> but it got pushed in the stack
14:14:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot an important word
14:14:52 <ehird> oklopol: YOU WANT TO BUY A COMPUTER FOR ME
14:14:55 <oklopol> so i answered once ehird stopped being insane
14:15:03 <ehird> i stopped being insane?
14:15:11 <ehird> it feels peculiarly similar
14:15:16 <oklopol> ehird: well yes, you made it clear you weren't talking about easy ways
14:15:53 <ehird> oklopol: gimme £1 every week and I swear that you will have a chance of me giving you £1,000,000 that is 10% more likely than the lottery
14:15:56 <ehird> you don't even have to pick numbers
14:16:05 <ehird> ↑ easier, more likely
14:16:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion <-- intentional?
14:16:25 <oklopol> what would you do with it then?
14:16:25 <ehird> how should i know AnMaster
14:16:32 <ehird> oklopol: whaddya mena
14:16:42 <oklopol> "you won't win anyway, so i'll just keep it"?
14:17:05 <oklopol> i mean how're you going to get a million?
14:17:48 <ehird> (a) debt, (b) money from your bets
14:17:57 <ehird> it's rational to keep betting after you win because you might get another million
14:18:05 <ehird> so if you hit it first time, it's debt until i get a million, which i get from your bets
14:18:14 <ehird> and also any other sources of money i have
14:18:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:18:43 <oklopol> if i won a million, i would not bet again
14:18:47 <ehird> the chances of both you winning and me being stuck in permanent debt with no way to repay it are so astronomically unlikely even compared to you just winning that you should be more worried about me dying in a freak asteroid-and-chicken-wing accident
14:18:59 <ehird> if you want a million, and think this is a good way to get it
14:19:02 <ehird> why not get two million?
14:19:05 <ehird> oklopol: then i'll just enroll other people
14:19:10 <ehird> i have better odds, so there
14:19:11 <oklopol> why would i want two million?
14:19:13 <ehird> i expect your bets
14:20:03 <ehird> oklopol: you do know that "a lot of people bet and then we repay the winning bets with the bets" is the exact same model as the lottery, right?
14:20:22 <ehird> i just give you better chances and, depending on if you set up a batch, less work (no numbers)
14:20:28 <ehird> so c'mon, where's my quid
14:20:40 <oklopol> ehird: except you can't get enough players
14:20:55 <ehird> that's what they said to Baron von Lottery III
14:21:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol: you do know that "a lot of people bet and then we repay the winning bets with the bets" is the exact same model as the lottery, right? <-- not exactly. The difference is that they can make sure they have the money... by not paying most of the people back
14:21:08 <oklopol> maybe he wasn't an annoying brat?
14:21:12 <ehird> oklopol: anyway, i don't need enough players necessarily
14:21:28 <ehird> because you will lose many, many times before you win; if you don't it's just temporary debt while i get more players
14:21:49 <ehird> i'm pretty much certain to be able any winnings within like ten years
14:23:22 <oklopol> ehird: if you seriously think you can make a better system than the lottery, then yeah, i'll start playing as soon as i see your ad on the net
14:23:43 <ehird> oklopol: my system gives you better odds
14:23:50 <oklopol> ehird: but it doesn't exist
14:24:03 <ehird> it starts running as soon as i get my first pound
14:34:22 <oklopol> ehird: do you know how to convert between rationals and doubles in j?
14:34:36 <ehird> i think so, second
14:35:19 <oklopol> i can't find anything for it in the docs
14:35:22 <ehird> oklopol: err it's isomorphic
14:35:25 <ehird> you don't have to convert
14:35:47 <oklopol> technically not, except for speedual purposes.
14:35:53 <ehird> oklopol: (1r2+o.1)-o.1
14:35:56 <oklopol> i need to print a rational in form i can see
14:36:09 <ehird> rationals are very seeable :
14:36:21 <oklopol> well if they are too long they aren't
14:36:33 <ehird> oklopol: +0.1-0.1 works
14:36:42 <oklopol> this one is like multiple hundred pages prolly
14:36:54 <ehird> i'm interested, what are you writing?
14:38:08 <oklopol> okay pi works, because it's not an exact number, but yes, ugly
14:38:14 <ehird> oklopol: +0.1-0.1 works
14:38:22 <ehird> +0.0 doesn't, dunno why
14:38:28 <ehird> oklopol: another silly option:
14:38:31 <oklopol> and i'm just calculating some lottery odds
14:39:05 <oklopol> also +0.1-0.1 doesn't work for me
14:39:26 <oklopol> maybe whether decimals are exact is implementation defined?
14:39:40 <ehird> oklopol: i suggest you use one of the base things
14:39:47 <ehird> you're meant to let j pick a representation in general i think
14:40:11 <oklopol> the rational is so big i can't print all of it
14:40:18 <ehird> oklopol: #:(numerator x) and #:(denomerator x)
14:40:40 <ehird> then you get the binary digits
14:40:42 <ehird> so you can just do
14:41:01 <ehird> that doesn't really help you get x.y though
14:41:09 <ehird> but you can limit how many digits you see
14:41:10 <ehird> but on second thoughts
14:41:34 <ehird> i didn't wnt to look it up
14:41:47 <ehird> +.y yields a two-element list of the real and imaginary parts of its argument. For example, +.3j5 is 3 5, and +.3 is 3 0 .
14:42:13 <ehird> that's imaginaries
14:42:16 <ehird> im so fucking stupid
14:42:50 <oklopol> but yes, it proves the creators of j probably know how to separate a tuple into it's components
14:42:51 <ehird> oklopol: use a foreign function or something from the libraries
14:42:54 <ehird> to convert to string or whatever
14:43:03 <oklopol> i'll just add and sub pi :P
14:43:08 <ehird> well yeah that works
14:44:00 <oklopol> only 1/10000 for 4 years of lottery, that actually puts it ahead of some of the more ridiculous ideas of mine, like walking to the bank and seeing if anyone notices you taking all their money.
14:44:30 <ehird> r2d =: monad define
14:44:40 <ehird> oklopol: lol that's some idea
14:44:48 <ehird> oklopol: also did you take into account how many people play lottery
14:44:54 <ehird> but did you get the numbers right
14:45:06 <oklopol> ehird: might be more probable than lottery, but you can only do it once :P
14:45:13 <oklopol> what about the number of people?
14:45:15 <ehird> just move all the time!
14:45:24 <ehird> oklopol: the more people that play the lottery, the less likely you are to win
14:46:05 <oklopol> well yes, but the big wins are only shared like 20% of the time
14:46:15 <oklopol> 20% being based on nothing.
14:46:31 <ehird> you gotta take the player counts into account or it's worthless
14:46:48 <oklopol> but yeah, that does make it slightly harder, except the ones where they're shared are usually ones in which the jackpot is high anyway
14:46:57 <oklopol> and splitting it doesn't drop under a millionn
14:47:12 <oklopol> in finland, that is, your jackpots are bigger afaik
14:47:55 <oklopol> ehird: i think statistically most lottery winners get a million.
14:48:27 <ehird> oklopol: email tech@jsoftware.com or jal@jsoftware.com ("application library" issues) and tell them to make a rational to float function or whatever
14:48:37 <ehird> adding and subtracting pi is for stupids
14:49:07 <oklopol> i know there's something for it, the j docs are just kinda... bad
14:49:25 <ehird> wow there's multiple active mailings lists for J
14:49:44 <oklopol> i'm afraid of mailing lists
14:49:52 <ehird> http://jsoftware.com/pipermail/programming/2009-July/thread.html
14:49:55 <ehird> tons of posts just this month
14:50:01 <ehird> and that's just one of them
14:50:11 <ehird> > Write a numeric constant with value 2147483648 (2^31)
14:50:11 <ehird> > in the fewest characters.
14:51:33 <oklopol> i can't convert doubles to rationals either :)
14:51:43 <ehird> oklopol: that's easy
14:52:00 <ehird> oklopol: also I'm not sure it's exact
14:52:04 <ehird> it does stop at 48 after all
14:52:13 <oklopol> i thought it was hard because you can't just inexact exact by adding something to i
14:52:26 <ehird> oklopol: well any float can be a rational
14:52:32 <ehird> but we don't have reals so it doesn't matter
14:52:54 <oklopol> what? i'm just talking about the conversions j has
14:53:11 <ehird> oklopol: well, o. 1 → 314159r100000
14:53:22 <ehird> it's just the wossname
14:53:28 <ehird> significand mantissa thingy
14:53:50 <ehird> oklopol: i'm converting a float to a rational
14:53:52 <oklopol> how does that help in making a double a rational?
14:54:02 <ehird> 3.14159 = 314159r100000
14:54:06 <oklopol> i guess you could multiply xD
14:54:08 <ehird> this is actually what we use for floating point thingy
14:54:16 <ehird> oklopol: well mine uses base 10 which kinda sucks
14:54:19 <ehird> lemme do it as base 2
14:54:54 <oklopol> wait i'm an idiot, that doesn't help
14:55:09 <ehird> oklopol: point is, the algorithm, stated fuzzily
14:55:15 <ehird> working in decimal, take the dot place
14:55:20 <ehird> and like just multiply 2
14:55:22 <ehird> then remove the dot
14:55:26 <ehird> and divide 'em into a rational
14:55:32 <ehird> the hard part is like, formulating this mathemagically
14:55:35 <ehird> you could use a tostring function :D
14:56:28 <oklopol> take the dot place, and multiply by two?
14:56:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> > Write a numeric constant with value 2147483648 (2^31)
14:56:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> > in the fewest characters.
14:56:34 <oklopol> multiply the number by two?
14:56:38 <ehird> oklopol: nonono, like
14:56:51 <ehird> if we're working in decimal
14:57:01 <ehird> that 10000 aligns with the 14159
14:57:03 <ehird> and is the same length
14:57:08 <ehird> then we remove the decimal place
14:57:23 <ehird> so basically, do that but with base-2 instead of base-10
14:57:28 <ehird> since the doubles are base-2 based
14:57:31 <ehird> instead of base-10 based
14:58:26 <oklopol> oh, right, modulo will get me the small digits just as well as binary and
14:59:18 <ehird> oklopol: i'll write a paste explaining it
15:00:03 <oklopol> i just don't get why the rationals, it's an integer
15:00:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, btw is your nick related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklo in any way?
15:03:40 <oklopol> i thought it might be like the point, that that's not exact, and you need to do something weird.
15:04:40 <ehird> oklopol: the double to rational conversion algorithm: http://pastie.org/556420.txt?key=fsnc1cgevfykunm0dlgwq
15:04:57 <ehird> i assume you already know it
15:05:03 <ehird> but maybe i expressed it wrong
15:05:17 <oklopol> There are five digits after the decimal point, so we take 10^5 = 100000 <<< how do you get the number of digits after decimal point?
15:05:43 <ehird> oklopol: (a) that's your problem, (b) the maximum is 5 so it's always five
15:06:26 <ehird> might differ for 64 bit or whatever
15:06:38 <ehird> but you can get bit size from ! (foreign)
15:06:41 <oklopol> 3.14159265358979 is how much vb could do
15:06:50 <ehird> at this point, oklopol starts hating J again :D
15:06:57 <ehird> oklopol: just never use doubles
15:07:14 <ehird> write a function for entering things in decimally form as rationals
15:07:29 <oklopol> ehird: anyway this was about knowing whether 2^31 is exact.
15:07:32 <ehird> that's easy to figure out the bits
15:08:07 <oklopol> actually i just checked and it is exact
15:08:24 <ehird> oklopol: dude, 2.14748e9 = 2147480000
15:08:52 <oklopol> so what you meant by "maximum is 5" was that j only prints first 5
15:09:06 <ehird> well it should print all of them dammit
15:09:11 <ehird> oklopol: anyway doubles are totally useless when you have rationals.
15:09:25 <oklopol> they make more sense when you look at them
15:09:59 <ehird> it's trivial to write (3 d 14159265) = pi approx as rational (for some values of trivial)
15:10:14 <ehird> and it's trivial to write dp (3 d 14159265) = 3,14159265
15:10:15 <oklopol> of course rationals are as fast, asymptotically, if you round them a bit.
15:10:25 <ehird> also rationals are more elegant and less machine
15:10:30 <ehird> and they can represent 1r3
15:10:36 <ehird> whereas, y'know, doubles can't
15:10:42 <ehird> in conclusion rationals are fucking awesome and anyone using doubles sucks.
15:11:06 <ehird> oklopol: ok they can represent 1r3 but the 1 they give is not really 1
15:11:14 <ehird> it's too machine :<
15:11:27 <oklopol> doubles can represent 1 exactly, and they can't represent 1r3
15:11:51 <oklopol> my ... was because i have no idea what your point is, yes, rationals > doubles in range
15:11:54 <ehird> but it's a ... lame kind of 1%3
15:12:00 <ehird> it's just rounding shit that makes it 1
15:13:35 <ehird> one issue with j rationals is that you can't do (expr r expr)
15:13:37 <ehird> because it's syntax
15:13:54 <ehird> but % generally works on rationals so.
15:14:53 <ehird> oklopol: lol look at the help page for d.
15:15:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> in conclusion rationals are fucking awesome and anyone using doubles sucks. <-- what about single precision?
15:16:01 <AnMaster> I mean, do you hate it as much?
15:16:40 <oklopol> singles are just doubles a few generations ago
15:17:02 <oklopol> okay few generations was maybe a bit of an overestimate.
15:17:05 <AnMaster> well I shall remind ehird about this next time he is using any program using 3D graphics.
15:17:20 <ehird> fuck you AnMaster rationals are awesome
15:17:22 <AnMaster> mostly rendering 3D is a case of floating point calculations
15:17:25 <oklopol> those use singles? aren't doubles faster generally
15:17:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, opengl can use both in theory iirc
15:18:05 <AnMaster> but singles are more common usually. You don't need the extra precision most of the time when rendering the environment or whatever in a game
15:18:33 <AnMaster> (there are exceptions however)
15:18:40 <oklopol> well right, for something where the calculations go on forever, you want the subset of reals you're using have bounded representations
15:18:58 <oklopol> or the algorithms get asymptotically slower
15:18:59 <AnMaster> (like z-buffer for long distances, I have seen single precision fuck up badly there.)
15:19:47 <oklopol> and of course, if we're talking actual computers, you need doubles to actually render anything, because rationals are many times slower anyway
15:19:53 <AnMaster> that is, when there is a semi-transparent object in front of another object, close to each other, but quite far from the camera
15:20:05 <oklopol> z buffer? do you know what a z buffer is?
15:20:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes, used to be able to decide wich order to render objects should be rendered when they overlap
15:21:22 <oklopol> yes, afaik it's exactly that
15:21:37 <oklopol> it's always cool to hear someone use a term i've only learned from dusty books
15:21:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, point was, the distance for the pixel was stored as a single, and the object was far away and had another object very close behind it
15:22:10 <oklopol> yeah i know what the issue is
15:22:15 <AnMaster> thus due to precision issues they ended up flickering kindof
15:22:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, such problems are common in flightsims. Just look at the cockpit window of an aircraft at the other end of the airport. :)
15:23:11 <AnMaster> and the yoke inside the window
15:27:09 <ehird> it's so concise and useless
15:27:13 <ehird> and has a bunch of examples
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15:28:31 <ehird> it doesn't look like a derivative tho
15:29:07 <oklopol> well, okay, i guess some of the really general high order functions are kinda stupid, because j doesn't actually do any algebra, just special cases some stuff you might want to use it on
15:29:14 <oklopol> it also has inverse and shti
15:29:45 <oklopol> but inverse is actually pretty cool, there's that one adverb that lifts a value with the function, performs another function on it, then unlifts it using the first one's inverse
15:29:51 <oklopol> so you can supply an inverse for you functions
15:30:01 <oklopol> and you can get pretty darn cool definitions for some sutff
15:30:16 <oklopol> like multiplications is log -> add -> antilog
15:30:22 <oklopol> like multiplications is log -> add -> antilog
15:30:39 <ehird> yeah but it can't really inversify
15:31:05 <oklopol> it inverses some basic functions, and some types of combinations of them are inversible
15:31:23 <oklopol> you'll have to supply hard obverses (as j calls them) yourself
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15:31:57 <oklopol> functions can have all kinds of additional info hanging on them, the inverse is one of them
15:32:28 <ehird> yeah i don't like that shit
15:32:56 <oklopol> you'd love it if you saw what obverses can do ;)
15:33:13 <ehird> can they make me toast
15:33:25 <oklopol> but yes, it is pretty hacky, and i'm not sure i like the thing myself.
15:34:49 <ehird> [[Factual errors: When Kate is describing the specs of her machine she says, “It's a P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium”. Dade then says, “Yeah. It's not just the chip, it has a PCI bus”. Kate says, “Indeed. RISC architecture is gonna change everything”. The P6 chip is a CISC design, not a RISC. Also, the Pentium has a PCI bus so there wouldn't be any reason to mention it.]]
15:34:53 <ehird> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113243/goofs
15:35:02 <ehird> [[Factual errors: In the scene when Acid is showing-off her laptop, they speak of the laptop having a processor called a P6 and a PCI bus. Further examination of this scene and another scene with them looking over the damaged code, the laptop that Acid-burn has is clearly a Macintosh Powerbook 280C (sub-notebook) made by Apple Computer Inc. This model does not have a PCI-bus, or a P6. It does have a Motorola 68030 33mhz CPU. ]]
15:35:06 <ehird> [[Factual errors: Kate's "insanely great" laptop is described as having a "28.8 bps" modem: a thousand times slower than a standard 28.8 kilobits per second one. ]]
15:35:31 <ehird> [[Revealing mistakes: When swimming in the rooftop pool at the end, Kate and Dade's ears are underwater as they talk to each other. They wouldn't be able to hear one another if their ears were submerged.]]
15:35:33 <ehird> you know the sad thing
15:35:36 <ehird> someone watched it so many times
15:35:37 <ehird> just to compile this
15:38:25 <fizzie> (A Gibson is a mainframe of some sort.)
15:39:16 <ehird> i bet the gibson had dual P6 processors
15:39:29 <ehird> it's gonna change everything again
15:39:30 <oklopol> what's all this hacker talk right here
15:39:46 <ehird> it'll have 32 megabytes of memory
15:40:34 <fizzie> Urban dictionary meaning number 5:
15:40:35 <fizzie> To Fuck a Dog in the anus
15:40:35 <fizzie> Eg. Me fucking your doberman would be to Hack the Gibson.
15:40:51 <fizzie> That's a bit out-of-place compared to the other meanings.
15:40:56 <ehird> i'm gonna hack the dual-processor gibson
15:43:44 <ehird> i want a planet the size of the sun
15:43:48 <ehird> can you imagine how awesome that would be
15:44:24 <oklopol> how would that be awesome exactly?
15:44:33 <ehird> oklopol: okay it's like
15:44:38 <ehird> go all the way around
15:44:43 <ehird> there would continually be a mystery
15:44:47 <ehird> of planetelial proportions
15:44:50 <ehird> the internet would be so lagged
15:44:57 <ehird> there'd be SO MUCH STUFF
15:45:02 <ehird> if you run out of stuff
15:45:10 <ehird> dudei t'd be fucking rad.
15:45:14 <ehird> dude it'd be fucking rad.
15:45:15 <oklopol> but there's that much stuff on earth as well
15:45:25 <ehird> with earth you eventually go alllllllll the way around
15:45:28 <ehird> also not as much internet lag
15:45:30 <ehird> with the sun you die before that
15:45:32 <ehird> and toooooons of internet lag
15:45:37 <ehird> it'd be fucking awesome.
15:46:12 <ehird> oklopol: no the sun is quite big :P
15:46:14 <oklopol> die before getting around it yourself?
15:46:31 <ehird> so you could never, ever run out of stuff
15:46:34 <oklopol> that may be, also you'd die from gravity anyway, unless there's some scheme around that
15:46:51 <ehird> just put an anti gravity machine in the core.
15:46:54 <oklopol> but internets flow around it in a few secs.
15:47:04 <ehird> but a few secs is everything
15:47:15 <ehird> actually i really like super gravity
15:47:29 <ehird> everything being crushed to an unimaginable degree and pummeled to the surface is just
15:47:44 <oklopol> does seem kinda pure an beautiful.
15:47:58 <ehird> what would a glio planet be
15:48:04 <ehird> you know what i want a cube planet
15:48:12 <ehird> it'd be a planet that is a cube
15:48:43 <oklopol> it's like 8 perfect mountains
15:48:51 <ehird> oklopol: cubeular mountains?
15:50:45 <ehird> oklopol: would this planet be as big as the biggest sun
15:51:30 <oklopol> well i might prefer one where you can slide down the mountain without a fear in the world.
15:51:40 <oklopol> also i had a dream i was riding this motorcycle
15:52:08 <oklopol> if only i had the balls to actually ride one.
15:52:52 <ehird> http://noordering.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/exponentiation-types/ this is awesome
15:54:20 <oklopol> isn't that how they're always defined
15:55:19 <pikhq> You know how multiplication is iterated addition, and exponentiation is iterated multiplication?
15:55:28 <pikhq> Tetration is iterated exponentiation.
15:55:35 <ehird> way to read the 5 line backlog
15:55:41 <ehird> actually 4 above "so"
15:59:39 <nooga> ehird: http://noordering.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/exponentiation-types/ this is awesome is awesome
16:03:41 <ehird> i just had an epiphany
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16:05:44 <ehird> it's dependent types of the equality
16:07:30 <oklopol> never share epiphanies before you've washed them
16:07:45 <ehird> you're in spacet hough
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16:08:33 -!- sebbu has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
16:08:33 -!- fizzie has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
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16:10:05 <ehird> at least he doesn't show up as an op to me
16:10:22 * GregorR-L slaps ehird and forces him to read :P
16:10:38 <oklopol> HELLO IM HUMAN I CAN CORECT TYPOS WITH MY EIS
16:11:00 <oerjan> THE FINGERS NEED MORE TRAINING THOUGH
16:14:23 <ehird> (p+q) x=p x || q x
16:14:28 <ehird> so we need like || but True/False are like, types
16:14:37 <ehird> have a pattern match on typesb ut we can't
16:14:41 <ehird> i'm not sure how we would do ||
16:15:15 <oerjan> ehird: Either is generally considered something like that
16:15:23 <ehird> it's just type, calculus, thingy
16:15:29 <ehird> with dependent types and sets as functions and types and
16:15:40 <ehird> (p*q) x = p x && q x you would think but i'm not sure that works as like a tuple
16:15:45 <ehird> you'd have to find a value that is both a p and a q
16:15:47 <oerjan> except it has an extra bottom in haskell
16:17:25 <oerjan> ehird: it's categorical product, where you can use morphisms to turn it into the right type
16:17:31 <ehird> ///////////////what
16:17:40 <oerjan> so you have (p,q) -> p and (p,q) -> q functions
16:17:43 <ehird> oerjan: so like what would it be with the and the is the
16:17:50 <ehird> it' wouldn't be true that we return would it or would be m
16:17:53 <ehird> ybe the siatiscati
16:19:38 <oerjan> lessee it's this stuff with cartesian closed categories. Bool is a category with two objects, False and True and exactly one morphism between everything except from True to False
16:20:04 <oerjan> (any distributive lattice or something like that)
16:20:08 <ehird> also false is a a ///////////////////////////////////// wait am i thinking rightmaybe is it not
16:20:36 <oerjan> ehird: types correspond to objects when you do the cartesian closed category stuff, i believe
16:20:51 <ehird> ///////////////////////////////////////////////// I'M BASICALLY RIPPing this ideas from another system als oiamcrazy today.
16:21:56 * oerjan probably doesn't remember this clearly enough to be of any help, if he ever did
16:22:09 <ehird> mfkdfdfdfkdfkjdfjkdfjdfdfjdfkjdfjkfdjkdfjkdfjkdfkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfkjdfjdfjkdfjkdfdfkdfkdfkdfjkdfkjfddfkjdfjkdfkjfdjkdfjkdfjkdfkjdfjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfjkdfkjdfjkfdjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfkjfdjkdfjfdjkfdjkfdkjdfkjdfjkdfjkfdjkdfkjdfkj oerjan i could give you a link to where i done rip.
16:23:22 <oklopol> oerjan: sometimes i get the feeling you don't really understand math that well, just memorized tons of cool sentences
16:23:51 <ehird> oklopol: he'll publish you
16:24:35 <ehird> MSACRO0 FICKING PHOTOGRAPHY
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16:27:48 <oerjan> oklopol: the vaguely recalled basic thing here is that the Curry-Howard isomorphism, which is between programs/types and proofs/theorems, can be extended with one more step, morphisms/objects in a suitable category. for the basic intuitionistic propositional logic this corresponds to the cartesian closed categories. i think.
16:28:30 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry%E2%80%93Howard_correspondence#Curry.E2.80.93Howard.E2.80.93Lambek_correspondence
16:29:16 <oklopol> i can memorize that with no trouble
16:31:00 <oerjan> well this is vague enough i almost accept the accusation :D
16:32:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: bitch what's that for
16:33:16 <oerjan> to bitch or not to bitch, that's the question
16:34:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: deundismexcommunicate me
16:44:27 <oerjan> in this case, it means "that's MADNESS"
16:45:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh? I don't see what is so mad about it
16:45:37 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
16:46:14 <AnMaster> you won't understand it unless you followed the comic
16:46:22 <AnMaster> it quite depends on previous strips
16:46:30 <oerjan> you need to know that that woman is supposed to be Jane Goodall at a younger age :D
16:46:50 <oklopol> is jane goodall a famous person?
16:46:52 <oerjan> well that's the minimum
16:46:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about knowing about that guy and Steve
16:47:33 <oerjan> yes. yes she is. and IWC portrays her almost as the exact opposite of the real one
16:47:44 <oklopol> and who is this jane character
16:48:27 <oerjan> http://www.janegoodall.org/
16:48:34 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall
16:48:50 <oklopol> i guess i can read a few lines
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16:51:46 <oerjan> did you notice graue's question whether you do backups of the wiki?
16:51:49 <AnMaster> irritating. I burned a cd and checked the "verify after burning" option in k3 b
16:52:21 <AnMaster> it reported "failed"... I used dd to dump the cd to a file. checked it against the iso, exactly the same
16:52:36 <AnMaster> so I wonder what happened there...
16:54:05 <ais523> :For esoteric programming, there doesn't have to be any reason why anyone should use anything. --[[User:Zzo38|Zzo38]]
16:54:11 <ais523> looks like zzo38 has the idea down right too
16:54:20 <ais523> oerjan: I personally don't do backups
16:54:24 <ais523> although IIRC all the other admins do
16:54:39 <ais523> if it turns out the wiki's low on backuppers, I may start
16:54:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird complained about that comment. Something about "uncofusing" the talk page or something
16:55:06 <oerjan> ais523: apparently graue's own backups started failing
16:56:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: don't ask me, i wasn't even present at the discussion
16:56:40 <oerjan> oklopol: gibbering fnord?
16:57:06 <oklopol> that was about unconfusing
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17:01:41 * ais523 grabs Esolang backup just in case
17:02:19 <ais523> also, I'm checking Calamari's backup to make sure it works
17:02:23 <ais523> it's good to have at least 2 working backups
17:03:28 <ais523> looks like the relevant information's there
17:03:28 <AnMaster> I recently saw an old digital camera with a *floppy* in it. How strange.
17:04:28 <oklopol> ehird: floppies are what we used back in the day instead of dvd's and frisbees
17:05:37 <GregorR-L> Observation: The diff between one day's SQL dump and the next is 66MB ...
17:05:41 <oklopol> agrgh my hands are dirty ->
17:05:50 <GregorR-L> I conclude that keeping them differentially does not appear to work.
17:06:17 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, is the previous one 0?
17:08:20 <GregorR-L> Oh, I must have got the screwed-up dump?
17:08:43 <GregorR-L> Length: 662295 (647K) [application/x-bzip2]
17:09:02 <ais523> wiki dumps tend to be quite large
17:09:16 <GregorR-L> It's probably a dump from when the DB was borkleborked.
17:09:26 <ais523> still contains all the info, though
17:12:31 <AnMaster> virtualbox fails. It lists one CD drive. /dev/fd0 for use
17:15:05 <AnMaster> ais523, it is a drop down box, so I can't even enter the right one
17:21:47 <ais523> yet more fun in the SCO bankruptcy; it seems that one of the new companies who's trying to get involved has almost the same address and phone number as one of the ones who showed up earlier
17:21:52 <ais523> differing in just the last few characters
17:22:22 <ais523> AnMaster: it is unlikely to be a coincidence
17:35:50 <ehird> 17:02 ais523: also, I'm checking Calamari's backup to make sure it works
17:35:50 <ehird> 17:02 ais523: it's good to have at least 2 working backups
17:35:52 <ehird> 17:03 ais523: looks like the relevant information's there
17:35:58 <ehird> the last backup was broken
17:36:11 <ais523> it seems to contain the information, though, despite being broken
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17:36:26 <ais523> and I don't have a working mediawiki to try to undump it to
17:36:27 <ehird> but we had to rebuild a table
17:36:33 <ehird> by finding out the structure and shit
17:36:40 <ehird> so the problem is that all backups only keep one
17:36:46 <ehird> part from GregorR-L's
17:37:02 <ais523> hmm... maybe we should make an xml backup as well as the sql one?
17:40:00 <AnMaster> huh, virtualbox doesn't simulate x86_64?
17:40:45 <AnMaster> "Software virtualization is not supported for 64-bit VMs." <-- sigh. Makes it useless for me
17:41:54 <Asztal> it supports 64-bit guests on 32-bit hosts for me
17:41:56 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. A pain to use though... I need to test some archlinux stuff in advance...
17:42:05 <Asztal> at least, it's supposed to
17:42:08 <AnMaster> Asztal, only if you have hardware virtualization support
17:42:35 <ehird> you can't HW virtualize 64 bit on 32 bit
17:42:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes you can. Of course the CPU has to be 64-bit. Just the host OS doesn't need to me
17:43:25 <ehird> you need long mode, no?
17:43:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but the kernel module for virtualbox would take care or changing to that temporarily.
17:44:07 <ehird> you can't temporarily change to long mode
17:44:35 <AnMaster> except it doesn't use VT-x/AMD-V
17:44:53 <ehird> you mean it doesn't do the whole thing i'm talking about
17:45:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure what you are talking about
17:45:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm talking about x86_64 OS running under virtualbox or vmware with a 32-bit host but a 64-bit *capable* CPU
17:45:50 <AnMaster> for virtualbox you also need VT-x/AMD-V however
17:46:08 <ehird> i'm pretty sure only vmware does that.
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17:46:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I have the virtualbox documentation open
17:47:32 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.ca/1504521
17:48:35 <AnMaster> I can't link you to it, for some reason it decided to use some shitty chm file + kchmviewer to view the docs in
17:48:51 <ehird> presumably, it was originally windows only
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17:52:38 <pikhq> Huh. If you google "recursion", Google returns "Did you mean: /Recursion/".
18:00:49 <oerjan> huh it even works in norwegian...
18:00:58 <ehird> is today recursion day?
18:01:04 <ehird> there's a ton of recursion "jokes" on reddit
18:01:15 <pikhq> No, recursion's just awesome.
18:01:33 <ehird> recursion is the functional equivalent of goto
18:01:40 <pikhq> Fine, fine, so you want corecursion.
18:02:02 <ais523> ehird: a) recursion is the functional equivalent of goto; b) recursion is awesome anyway
18:02:08 <Deewiant> "Recursion" as a concept encompasses things like recursive datatypes
18:02:10 <ehird> ais523: yes, but goto is awesome too.
18:02:15 <oerjan> ehird: that's only tail recursion...
18:02:24 <ehird> oerjan: i meant in low-levelness.
18:10:01 <fizzie> Just as a data point; it does work in the Finnish version too.
18:12:02 <oklopol> why don't we have a real term for that
18:16:24 <fizzie> I'm sure Icelandic has their own word; they're so against loanwords.
18:17:19 <fizzie> Pretty much every language uses something "robot"-sounding for, well, robots; in Icelandic it's "þjarki". Okay, so there are a couple of other exceptions in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/robot too but still.
18:17:54 <oklopol> i just know they have their own for tv, but so does german, so
18:18:33 <fizzie> I can't quite be sure what the Bengali রোবট sounds like.
18:18:48 <oerjan> hm "rekursio" does not work from norwegian google
18:19:33 <oklopol> oh you do that sorta thing
18:19:38 <fizzie> "rekursio" and "recursion" both work for the Fi google; "rekursjon" doesn't. Well, it suggests "rekursion".
18:19:51 <ehird> what does rekursion do
18:20:16 <ehird> does it have the thingy on fi:
18:20:42 <fizzie> It could be Swedish too, the top-ten hits seem rather German though.
18:20:54 <ehird> does it have the correction on fi:
18:21:31 <fizzie> Well, no. Just the Finnish "rekursio" and the English "recursion" seem to have the self-as-suggestion thing.
18:21:45 <ehird> i guess cause forners google in english a lot
18:22:58 <oklopol> i don't really google in finnish at all
18:24:24 <fizzie> 8th result (seen from here) for Finnish "rekursio" in .com Google (why didn't I just say google.com?) is one of those Finnish systems which collect links from IRC channels, stating that http://www.google.fi/search?q=rekursio was mentioned 4 hours ago in an "#entropy" channel at IRCnet. How recursive.
18:25:33 <oklopol> i thought just the word recursino
18:25:50 <oklopol> that would've been more interesting
18:26:46 <oerjan> fizzie: no, recursive would have been the "#esoteric" channel at Freenode, silly.
18:28:15 <oerjan> ah the recursino, the anti-elementary particle
18:28:31 <oklopol> that would've been significantly less interesting
18:28:52 <oklopol> think about it, a finnish channel with people talking about recursion
18:29:39 <ehird> ontology was last said in this room 0 seconds ago
18:29:55 <oerjan> the recursino consists, of course, of two recursinos, a positron, and a left quark.
18:30:37 <ehird> oerjan: minus two recursinos, duh
18:31:04 <oerjan> ehird: rubbish, -ino is a common suffix for elementary particles
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18:31:20 <fizzie> I think that channel is for the electronic-music-themed sub-association-thing of the student union of my university, actually. I don't think they speak about recursion much.
18:31:21 <ehird> you said it was an anti-elementary particle
18:31:33 <oklopol> why the positron and left quark, part of the joke, random, or inevitability because of some property of particles?
18:31:34 <oerjan> yes. maybe it should be recursi, then.
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18:31:40 <ehird> I think a recursino is two recursinos and a strange quark.
18:31:46 <ehird> after all, there's nothing stranger than recursion
18:31:56 <ehird> combining the two recursinos in one
18:32:00 <oerjan> oklopol: the left quark is essential.
18:32:20 <ehird> the strange quark.
18:32:20 <oerjan> ehird: the left quark is also pretty strange
18:32:31 <ehird> yes but the strange quark lets you know it's strange
18:32:47 <ehird> also left quarks don't actually exist
18:32:57 <ehird> according to wikipedia at least :P
18:33:23 <ehird> in conclusion, recursino = {recursino, recursino, strange quark}
18:33:40 <ehird> oerjan: hmm doesn't that give us infinite energy?
18:33:57 <ehird> it's infinite ... stuff
18:34:13 <oerjan> yes, but the extra energy is released as binding energy
18:34:35 <ehird> recursino = {recursino, recursino, tachyon}
18:34:51 <ehird> oerjan: what would we need to do to give it infinite energy?
18:35:33 <oerjan> ehird: maybe some hilbert hotel trick with the constituents?
18:35:53 <oklopol> the hilbert hotel doesn't exist according to wikipedia
18:36:06 <ehird> oerjan: i still don't see why you can't just use all the extra quarks/tachyons/whatever
18:36:10 <ehird> descending through the recursinos
18:36:53 <oerjan> ehird: sure, but you use hilbert's hotel trick to get them out without leaving holes
18:37:06 <ehird> but that doesn't require changing the recursino does it?
18:37:37 <ehird> oerjan: tachyons would pose a bit of weirdness though wouldn't they
18:37:46 <ehird> having to put the energy BACK in or something :D
18:38:43 <oerjan> that is a bit beyond my expertise to answer
18:41:13 <oerjan> we may note that if a left quark decays to a strange quark and an electron, then those two compositions of the recursino may be equivalent
18:41:41 <ehird> mine didn't have an electron
18:41:59 <oerjan> mine had an extra positron, duh
18:42:04 <ehird> recursino = {recursino, strange quark}
18:42:11 <ehird> ↑ isn't that the minimum required for infinite energy
18:42:17 <ehird> do you need two recursinos for the hilbert trick
18:42:51 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Fine, fine, so you want corecursion. <-- ?
18:43:24 <AnMaster> atm I'm on a handheld, so browser is not an easy option!
18:43:26 <oerjan> well, if you had read about corecursion, you would know
18:44:50 <AnMaster> <oklopol> what's rekursion?<-- probably Swedish too. But I seldom talk about programming in Swedish, so wouldn't know
18:46:19 <oerjan> "Notice that corecursion creates (potentially infinite) codata, whereas ordinary recursion analyses (necessarily finite) data."
18:46:45 <oerjan> fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
18:47:00 <oerjan> is an example of corecursion in haskell
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19:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, btw did you order that linux system yet?
19:20:52 * AnMaster is waiting for arch to install under qemu
19:21:15 <AnMaster> atm it is generating the damn initcpio thingy
19:22:21 <AnMaster> huh new holiday logo at google... again only on search results page yet.
19:22:38 <AnMaster> http://img0.gmodules.com/logos/comic-con09_res.gif
19:22:46 * AnMaster wonders what that is supposed to be
19:23:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i seem to recognize some superheroes
19:24:03 <fizzie> Well, comic-con 09 is going on, so...
19:24:15 <ehird> i guessed a con of some kind form the url
19:24:17 <fizzie> http://www.ginside.com/content/2009/07/comics-comicon-google-logo.jpg has a bigger picture.
19:24:26 <fizzie> (I don't know where it came from.)
19:24:54 <fizzie> Wonder woman is there too.
19:25:39 * ehird gets an urge to play super mario bros 1
19:26:00 <fizzie> The small figure in the g hook?
19:26:00 <oerjan> and elastic man, if that's right in english
19:26:37 <AnMaster> ehird, did you say arch on lvm was a bit tricky or whatever? I don't remember
19:26:49 <ehird> it wasn't tricky once i set the right option in the kernel thing
19:27:03 <fizzie> oerjan: It seems to be Plastic Man in English.
19:27:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well it seems it generated an /etc/fstab missing the root file system (which is on lvm...)(
19:27:37 <oerjan> fizzie: i recall they both exist, and are slightly different...
19:27:41 * ehird realises he's terrible at smb 1
19:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why not use cifs instead?
19:27:56 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you partitioning such a small drive btw
19:28:04 <ehird> that's just asking for a world of pain
19:28:13 <ehird> the laptop i assume we're talking about
19:28:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, there's Elongated Man and Plastic Man who I can find references to.
19:28:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have the laptop yet... It will arrive on Monday or Thusday... But I'm testing something out...
19:28:49 <oerjan> ah yes elastic -> elongated
19:28:51 <ehird> I'm just saying that LVM isn't a good path there because partitioning isn't
19:28:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I need to partition it anyway: /boot swap / at minimum
19:29:01 <fizzie> Elastic Man in wikipedia redirects to Elongated Man; "he only created the character because he didn't realize DC Comics had acquired Plastic Man in 1956".
19:29:11 <ehird> AnMaster: /boot doesn't need a partition
19:29:12 <AnMaster> ehird, and I want encrypted /home anyway
19:29:17 <ehird> and don't you have 4gb of ram in that thing anyway
19:29:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it does, since I'm going for ext4
19:29:42 <AnMaster> ehird, as for ram, not by default no. But I ordered extra ram
19:30:10 <ehird> does it have the 1680x1050 display?
19:30:43 <AnMaster> ehird, don't remember numbers of the top of my head, but it was same as what you suggested for resolution anyway
19:31:09 <ehird> maybe you'll finally appreciate subpixel antialiasing, you uncouth... thing.
19:32:47 <ehird> there should be an smb 1 clone where you can just jump
19:32:50 <ehird> you're always going right
19:33:10 <oerjan> fizzie: i conclude that google picture is closest to plastic man, though
19:34:49 <oerjan> fortunately, as it seems his suit design is more stable than that of the other guy
19:36:10 <ehird> it's pissing me off already
19:36:15 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said about SMB... why not use CIFS? SMB is marked as deprecated in the kernel iirc...
19:36:18 <ehird> r2d =: monad define
19:36:22 <ehird> should totally not be neccessary :P
19:36:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Har har you are so funny I meant super mario brothers.
19:36:56 * GregorR-L tries to think of a name for a platformer that's CIFS for short.
19:37:18 <ehird> CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE Fast Shooter
19:37:22 <ehird> It works better if you imagine it's japanese.
19:37:45 <ehird> CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター
19:37:54 <ehird> AnMaster: They all seem to have English phrases lumped in with their japanese.
19:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you either copied those or made them up?
19:38:10 <oerjan> GregorR-L: coming in from space
19:38:14 <ehird> It translates to "CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE fast shooter".
19:38:27 <ehird> Now I want to make CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター.
19:38:44 <AnMaster> ehird, actually google could translate to some other meaning of fast or shooter
19:39:09 <ehird> No, I translated it back.
19:39:11 <ehird> So it seems quite likely.
19:39:29 <AnMaster> ehird, and? A language could have two different words for fast as in "speed" or fast as in "time"
19:39:39 <ehird> so could your mom but I don't make a big deal of it
19:39:51 <oerjan> GregorR-L: chimpanzee investigators FROM SPACE
19:40:17 <AnMaster> "snabbt" would work for both in Swedish. But "fort" would be more idiomatic about speed and "kvickt" is probably better about time...
19:40:36 <AnMaster> I wouldn't say using them in the other way is definitely wrong, just doesn't feel quite as right
19:41:08 <ehird> -----------------------------------
19:41:08 <ehird> | Chimpanzee Investigators |
19:41:10 <ehird> | ...FROM SPACE! |
19:41:12 <ehird> -----------------------------------
19:41:48 <ehird> I'm imagining it being a Lucas Arts-style adventure game.
19:41:49 <GregorR-L> And post a bunch of things about CIFS being better than SMB.
19:41:53 <ehird> you are chimpanzees
19:41:55 <ehird> you come from space
19:41:59 <ehird> you are investigating a crime by a human
19:42:02 <ehird> COMMITTED ON YOUR PLANET
19:42:08 <ehird> insert planet of the apes references to taste
19:42:29 <oerjan> ehird: i note you solved the slight ambiguity in my originally intended way
19:42:46 <ehird> the other way didn't even occur to me
19:44:16 <ehird> oklopol: you can't do infinite lists in J can you
19:44:32 <ehird> AnMaster: things that investigate chimpanzees
19:44:35 <ehird> as opposed to chimpanzees that investigate
19:44:38 <ehird> oklopol: "not directly"?
19:44:40 <oklopol> i mean i don't know how at least
19:44:47 <ehird> hmm i guess you could box some code of how to generate the rest
19:44:52 <ehird> with the first element
19:44:55 <AnMaster> ehird, make it "FROM OUTER SPACE"
19:44:56 <oklopol> ehird: well you can do a retarded sort of oo, so technically it's possible
19:44:59 <AnMaster> so it is a Plan9 reference too
19:45:06 <ehird> oklopol: ugh apart from that
19:45:11 <ehird> AnMaster: that's... not a plan 9 reference
19:45:13 <ehird> that's just a cliche
19:45:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: the acronym was predetermined
19:45:42 <GregorR-L> I was thinking humans who investigate chimpanzees, but this is admittedly better.
19:45:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: humans from... space?
19:46:04 <ehird> things that annoy me: J tries to coerce towards doubles, not rationals
19:46:05 <GregorR-L> They're from space if the chimpanzee planet isn't Earth :P
19:46:13 <ehird> 1r2,%11 = 0.5 0.0909091
19:46:34 <ehird> 1r3,%11 = 0.333333 0.0909091
19:47:41 <ehird> it should end with a huge WTF
19:47:55 <ehird> the alien race are actually descendents of the chimpanzees
19:47:57 <ehird> or the other way around
19:48:05 <ehird> (this after an inevitable love interest, thus giving extra yuks)
19:48:08 <ehird> they're all going to di
19:48:11 <ehird> because of something
19:48:22 <oklopol> WHAT A MAJOR TWIST WOULD THAT BE
19:48:42 <oerjan> i'm just _sure_ jane goodall is involved somehow.
19:48:46 <ehird> i prefer actually-we-just-didn't-tell-you-this-ists
19:48:54 <ehird> jane goodall is actually a chimp
19:50:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: maybe CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター could be a subgame; part of a broken-down arcade
19:50:30 <ehird> with games like… uh…
19:50:35 <ehird> Snot Custard Warrior
19:50:45 <ehird> catchphrase: "S'not custard... it's SNOT!"
19:51:04 <ehird> moving is for idiots
19:52:55 <GregorR-L> At the end you wake up, your vision unblurs and you see that you're surrounded by (human) doctors.
19:52:59 <GregorR-L> Blah blah blah something about a coma.
19:53:09 <GregorR-L> Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee!
19:53:25 <ehird> you go back to the controlling
19:53:31 <ehird> you have to swipe off the humans
19:53:39 <ehird> THE PREVIOUSLY-UNMENTIONED ANTAGONISTS
19:54:00 <ehird> they explain their plan to you—of course—and throw you out the window. LOOK OUT FOR CHIMPANZEE INVESTIGATORS FROM SPACE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
19:54:06 <ehird> ONLY FROM ESOTERIC SOFTWARE
19:54:18 <ehird> blah blah mail order blah blah 20 bucks blah blah
19:56:23 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I tried 32-bit arch under virtualbox... Got hit by this bug: http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/2149
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20:03:34 <GregorR-L_> Jul 23 14:53:09 <GregorR-L> Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee!
20:03:34 <GregorR-L_> <GregorR-L> Oh and btw those guys are the chimpanzee investigators.
20:03:34 <GregorR-L_> <GregorR-L> Thought that would be clear but rereading maybe it's not :P
20:03:45 <GregorR-L_> I got d/c'd before I could finish my twist.
20:03:51 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Oh, ha.
20:03:56 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Here's how I continued:
20:04:05 <ehird> 19:53 GregorR-L: Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee!
20:04:05 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: and then
20:04:06 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: you go back to the controlling
20:04:10 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: you have to swipe off the humans
20:04:12 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: revealing
20:04:14 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: THE PREVIOUSLY-UNMENTIONED ANTAGONISTS
20:04:16 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: they explain their plan to you—of course—and throw you out the window. LOOK OUT FOR CHIMPANZEE INVESTIGATORS FROM SPACE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
20:04:19 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: ONLY FROM ESOTERIC SOFTWARE
20:04:21 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: blah blah mail order blah blah 20 bucks blah blah
20:04:25 <ehird> it can be tied into yours easily
20:04:29 <ehird> turns out the chimpanzee investigators are the bad guys hur hur
20:04:31 <ehird> man i'm awesome at terrible twists
20:04:41 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, great ability for a sequel there...
20:05:52 <ehird> GregorR-L_: rate my continuation of the twist on a scale of -10 to 0
20:06:31 <GregorR-L_> It doesn't QUITE mesh with mine, since, y'know, why are the chimpanzee investigators throwing out a perfectly good chimpanzee?
20:06:50 <ehird> GregorR-L_: hmm true
20:06:53 <ehird> well we can amend that part
20:06:58 <ehird> instead of being thrown out
20:07:12 <oerjan> GregorR-L_: to investigate its behavior in the WILD, duh
20:07:18 <ehird> it's just a building.
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20:13:32 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
20:30:22 <AnMaster> ehird, btw the reason I want to use lvm is simple: 1) I want ext4, so /boot must be separate anyway 2) I want encrypted /home but not anything else encrypted. 3) I don't know how large /home and how large / I will need... So I'm going for lvm to be able to resize as I need it.
20:30:42 <AnMaster> what I'm about to test is that resizing work when encryption is used
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20:36:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Strictly speaking, the encryption isn't through LVM.
20:36:29 <AnMaster> what I meant was encrypting an LVM lv
20:36:44 <AnMaster> and if you could still grow that lv (and the file system inside it) then
20:36:51 <AnMaster> which I'm still not sure about
20:36:59 <pikhq> Should work just fine, assuming that the dm-crypt volume is growable.
20:37:17 <pikhq> If not, you'll need to make another dm-crypt volume and have your logical volume on two physical volumes.
20:38:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, IDEA (lower layer first): PV - VG - LV:/home - cryptsetup-luks - /dev/encrypted-home - /home
20:38:58 <AnMaster> so question is, if the layer LV grows, can the cryptsetup layer grow (and, of course, the file system in it)
20:39:23 <pikhq> The only question with that is cryptsetup's capabilities.
20:40:01 <AnMaster> and it has a resize option, yet it seems some people indicate it only works for plain volumes, not LUKS ones
20:40:46 <pikhq> Well, what you can do is grow the logical volume, then grow the encrypted volume, then grow the filesystem.
20:40:52 <pikhq> I see no reason why that wouldn't work...
20:41:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, see top of http://www.saout.de/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=ResizeLUKSPartitions
20:41:19 <AnMaster> atm trying to set up a volume to test with
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20:50:45 <pikhq> C++0x is dead, long live C++1x.
20:50:48 <pikhq> (it's official now!)
20:54:58 * AnMaster deletes the vm now that he is done with it...
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20:59:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would have been a nice retcon
20:59:57 <AnMaster> anyway isn't it a case of second system syndrome?
21:00:20 <Deewiant> C++ itself is, C++0x not so much
21:00:34 * oerjan wanted to chip in with third, there
21:01:20 <oerjan> well why didn't you, then
21:01:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, hah you know what I mean
21:01:58 <oerjan> wink wink, nudge nudge
21:03:20 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_Nudge
21:20:32 <ehird> 20:41 oklopol: god i love reading j
21:26:48 <oklopol> except when it takes 20 minutes and i realize i must not perfectly understand the parsing
21:27:28 <ehird> oklopol: what code are you reading, i just love to see new j code
21:27:47 <oklopol> i generally just read the labs, still plenty of unread material there
21:28:06 <ehird> the labs are too linear for me.
21:29:10 <ehird> i mean i don't feel like i'm being taught hte language
21:29:21 <ehird> i feel more like i'm being dictated marketspeak of how good the language is
21:29:41 <oklopol> they aren't very good learning material
21:30:03 <ehird> oh and it isn't just dictating how good the language is
21:30:12 <ehird> it's making ME participate, in rigidly defined ways
21:30:12 <oklopol> mainly because it's tons of work to actually read the sample code, because it's always 50% completely new things the labs don't explain
21:31:13 <oklopol> i learn best from books, should probably buy a j one
21:31:38 <ehird> oklopol: most of the books are in the j docs
21:31:41 <ehird> you should write your own
21:32:08 <ehird> call it "j is kind of like a rabbit" or somehting
21:32:12 <ehird> and make it an extended metaphor about rabbits
21:32:49 <ehird> "% is like a rabbit's ears. it divides numbers."
21:33:11 <oklopol> Use of the bond conjunction is often called Currying in honor of Haskell Curry.
21:33:26 <ehird> Haskell Curry was a rabbit
21:33:35 <ehird> oklopol: (m&v) y = m v y
21:33:53 <ehird> it's partial application
21:34:00 <ehird> but non-functional programmers often call partial application currying
21:34:10 <ehird> even though currying is just making al lfunctions one-argument, which SUPPORTS partial application inherently
21:34:18 <ehird> but the uncouth masses do not realise this, oh no
21:34:20 <oklopol> oh lol the other meaning of &
21:35:04 <oklopol> i can see how partial application is kinda currying, but & is also a synonym for @
21:36:48 <ehird> oklopol: i don't think @ = &
21:37:00 <ehird> at least, the docs don't mention it
21:37:41 <oklopol> used with two functions, it's the same thing
21:38:13 <oklopol> well i dunno about ranks, @ forces same rank, i don't know what & does with it
21:38:35 <ehird> oklopol: you mean jetails
21:38:42 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:38:57 <ehird> "The closest approach to Uranus occurred on January 24, 1986,"
21:38:59 <oerjan> those poor ailing jets
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22:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, would you consider it insane designing your own initramfs from scratch?
22:01:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it's like LFS... but even better
22:01:56 <ehird> AnMaster: you know, I think the university might want you to do other things than constantly rewrite your computer
22:02:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I plan to do this before...
22:02:32 <ehird> Yes, until it needs changing.
22:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, still I can do it in a VM just for fun, can't I?
22:03:04 <ehird> Well, yes. I mean, I don't think it's physically impossible or anything.
22:04:12 <AnMaster> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Initramfs <-- I love you gentoo wiki
22:04:39 <AnMaster> yes gentoo has a tool if you don't want to mess with kernel. called gen-kernel or something like that
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22:04:56 <AnMaster> iirc there is even another way to create an initramfs if you want to
22:08:17 <pikhq> Genkernel is pretty awesome.
22:08:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it? I avoid initramfs whenever I can
22:08:42 <pikhq> (though I still have it do menuconfig, it creates really nice initramfs's)
22:08:48 <AnMaster> I much prefer having exactly the drivers I need!
22:08:59 <pikhq> I've got root on LVM.
22:09:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes that is what I'm going for on the laptop, thus I'm checking this out
22:09:29 <ehird> GregorR: did you install ksplice?
22:09:57 <AnMaster> the initramfs's (argh, "initrds" is so much simpler to say!) created by the arch linux system for doing that tends to be rather bloated
22:10:11 <ehird> AnMaster: initramfses
22:10:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:10:15 <AnMaster> and creating a minimal one should be trivial...
22:10:22 <AnMaster> the drivers will be in kernel anyway
22:10:24 <ehird> initramfs's doesn't make sense, and it would be initramfs' anyway
22:10:27 <AnMaster> since I always do custom kernel
22:10:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the initramfses' cars
22:10:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: genkernel can be configured not to have any modules in the initramfs.
22:10:56 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, that's valid
22:11:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm NOT going to do gentoo on the laptop
22:11:05 <ehird> initramfs's didn't make sense in THAT CONTEXT
22:11:11 <pikhq> So, all it has then is busybox and LVM and such.
22:11:33 <ehird> Y'know, if I got a laptop for a utilitarian purpose, I'd probably just stick stock Ubuntu on it.
22:11:37 <ehird> Y'all crazy fuckers.
22:11:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, mine will have busybox and lvm.static I guess. no need for cryptsetup since that is for /home only
22:11:59 <pikhq> If I've got a system I don't want to fuck with much, I stick Debian on it.
22:12:22 <ehird> yeah, i'd just pick ubuntu cuz the install's quicker/easier and the gui integration is nicer
22:12:29 <ehird> fucking with initramfs?
22:12:45 <pikhq> ehird: I don't fuck with initramfs, though.
22:12:47 <AnMaster> since lvm creates dynamic devices
22:12:52 <AnMaster> won't I need some replacement for udev?
22:12:54 <ehird> pikhq: you're san*er* then :P
22:12:58 <AnMaster> like the mdev thingy in busybox?
22:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: why not use udev
22:13:06 <pikhq> I just happen to know that genkernel lets you configure how it makes the initramfs if needed.
22:13:14 <AnMaster> ehird, on a initramfs? You must be insane
22:13:37 <ehird> (AnMaster: *an, that is)
22:14:22 <AnMaster> on a initramfs you don't want much
22:14:24 <pikhq> ehird: I only run Gentoo on my desktop because I want to fiddle with some things. If it weren't for that, I'd be running Debian.
22:14:28 <ehird> i don't even know what you're doing but it's probably not even needed since i don't see any other distro having a problem with it
22:14:36 <ehird> pikhq: hey now, debian's pretty fiddleable
22:14:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't even know what or why you're doing whatever it is your doing
22:15:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I could use the initramfs generation script from arch linux. But it generates very slow booting initramfses
22:15:31 <AnMaster> 30 seconds vs. 14 seconds booting time?
22:15:35 <pikhq> But anyways, yeah. There's no freaking sense in making a custom initramfs when a normal one would work just fine.
22:15:37 <ehird> nobody turns off laptops
22:15:44 <ehird> you close the top, which suspends to ram and then disk
22:16:02 <ehird> y'know, so that it takes 5-10 seconds to sit down and use as opposed to 30
22:16:20 <ehird> AnMaster: windows, ubuntu and os x do it by default
22:16:29 <ehird> hybrid S2 suspend magic thingy #555// initram
22:17:10 <ehird> "suspend on close laptop gentoo"
22:17:15 <ehird> (because gentoo is the most popular DIY distro)
22:17:18 <ehird> (you'll get the best results)
22:17:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is easy... What I meant was... how do you do the "magic change to disk suspending some minutes later"
22:17:46 <ehird> AnMaster: it's part of the suspend/resume suite thing
22:17:52 <ehird> ram, disk and hybrid
22:17:54 <ehird> you just do hybrid
22:17:59 <ehird> it stays on until it persists it all to ram
22:18:04 <ehird> then turns off completely
22:18:14 <ehird> it doesn't do a total shutdown
22:18:18 <ehird> it goes right back in when you open it up
22:18:20 <ehird> but it uses 0 power
22:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: urgh, it's s2_suspend -hybrid or something
22:18:36 <pikhq> ehird: Right, it suspends to swap.
22:18:41 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't the point of suspend to disk that it is total shutdown? I used suspend to disk on desktops...
22:18:42 <ehird> from the same thing that does suspend/resumes normally
22:18:49 <ehird> but it doesn't go back to the bios
22:18:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and I even unplugged the computer in between
22:18:59 <ehird> i don't know what it does, but it does totally turn off
22:19:06 <ehird> it's just that when you start it up again, magic happens
22:19:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did. Just BIOS didn't show the usual booting screen
22:19:09 <ehird> and you go straight back to the OS
22:19:19 <ehird> AnMaster: well, it didn't load the kernel or anything either afaik
22:19:22 <ehird> because it takes like 5 seconds total
22:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, according to this: http://www.gentoo.org/images/energy-budget.png we should go back to using lamps and switches to poke the registers...
22:20:28 <ehird> AnMaster: no, we should just use OLEDs
22:20:45 <AnMaster> right. What about their lifetime though?
22:20:52 <ehird> they last longer than LCDs.
22:20:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also, it doesn't matter, really
22:21:04 <ehird> laptops are the biggest computer market
22:21:06 <AnMaster> *waits for it to become common in laptops*
22:21:08 <ehird> and the standard laptop replace time is 2-3 years
22:21:22 <AnMaster> ehird, not mine. I'm not going to replace it that quickly
22:21:22 <ehird> anyway, <3 OLEDs. black is really black, awesome colours, excellent backlight and tiny power usag
22:21:47 <AnMaster> ehird, black is really black <--- didn't you say constrast didn't matter that much?
22:21:58 <ehird> but actual black on current displays
22:22:01 <ehird> still has a bit of backlight
22:22:13 <ehird> (also, not "that much"; at all. it doesn't matter one jot because you can't get displays low enough to matter)
22:22:23 <ehird> but yeah, with OLEDs, black truly has no light
22:22:30 <ehird> and also, colours can still be improved with the backlight
22:22:35 <ehird> which OLEDs, of course, do
22:22:41 <ehird> because there's no "backlight"
22:22:57 <ehird> oh, and of course you can make bendable OLED displays, transparent OLED displays and they're all super, super light
22:23:30 <AnMaster> ehird, how bendable? As in folding it?
22:23:40 <AnMaster> and putting something heavy on top of the fold?
22:23:42 <ehird> well, it won't stay folded, probably
22:23:50 <ehird> AnMaster: erm, unlikely
22:23:54 <ehird> but you can take two ends and pinch them together
22:23:57 <ehird> and hold it like that indefinitely
22:24:05 <AnMaster> ehird, and flattern out the fold?
22:24:18 <ehird> well, if you get it really flat the bit at the bend will probably fuck up
22:24:25 <ehird> and any great weight is probably gonna damage it
22:24:31 <ehird> but they're durable
22:24:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can't store them folded easily
22:24:44 <AnMaster> what is the point of making them fold then!
22:24:57 <ehird> screens that surround a whole room
22:25:05 <AnMaster> but what is wrong with HUD for visors?
22:25:18 <AnMaster> it is what is used in modern fighter pilot helmets for example
22:25:24 <ehird> AnMaster: HUDs just do one-colour vector graphics
22:25:27 <ehird> that's LAAAAAAAAAME
22:25:38 <ehird> you could display movies, overlay full-colour photographs, ... with a bendable, transparent OLED visor
22:25:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you can see through though. Which is good for the application
22:25:45 <ehird> AnMaster: there are transparent OLEDs
22:25:47 <AnMaster> vector graphics *displays* rocks
22:25:50 <ehird> and there are transparent ones that are also bendable
22:26:01 <ehird> (the colour isn't too good on them but that can be improved)
22:26:03 <ehird> (they're at trade-show level atm)
22:26:09 <AnMaster> ehird, assuming they really can draw smooth diagonal lines
22:27:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also there are two colour HUDs. Like a different colour for some of the graphics... I have seen it. Forgot what aircraft.
22:27:55 <AnMaster> ehird, this is still very very very cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display
22:28:17 <ehird> wearable computing shit has stuff like that
22:28:22 <AnMaster> HUD are split into 3 generations reflecting the technology used to generate the images.
22:28:22 <AnMaster> First Generation - Use a CRT to generate an image on a phospher screen, these had the disadvantage of fading with time as the phospher burns out. These systems still make up the majority of HUDs in operation today
22:28:22 <AnMaster> Second Generation - Use solid state light sources LED or similar which is modulated by a LCD screen to display an image. This removes the fading with time and also the high voltages that were required for first generation systems. These systems are on commerical aircraft.
22:28:23 <ehird> but OLEDs are stil lso much cooler, dammit
22:28:40 <AnMaster> Third Generation - Use optical waveguides to produce an image directly in the combiner rather than use a projection system.
22:28:42 <ehird> i thought hud = heads up display
22:28:59 <ehird> helmet mounted display
22:29:02 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#Generation
22:29:04 <ehird> two different articles
22:29:17 <ehird> HUD = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display
22:29:28 <AnMaster> ehird, YES THAT IS WHAT I SAID
22:29:34 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#Generation
22:29:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, this is still very very very cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display
22:29:50 <AnMaster> I mentioned two different articles
22:29:53 <ehird> it sure is fun watching you get worked up
22:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird, is sure tragic watching you fail to read
22:30:32 <AnMaster> and even fail to accept that once I pointed out I wasn't quoting the same thing any more
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23:18:04 <ehird> http://imgur.com/900rW.png
23:18:20 <ehird> False dichotomy 2: electric boogaloo!
23:19:00 <GregorR> I especially like how that implies that "I don't like him" is grounds for impeachment :P
23:20:46 <pikhq> History shows that only blowjobs are grounds for impeachment.
23:21:00 <pikhq> And not crimes against humanity.
23:21:09 <ehird> I'll impeach your blowjob.
23:21:11 <ehird> If you don't know what I mean.
23:21:38 <pikhq> Or violations of treaties. Or blatant violations of the Constitution.
23:21:59 <oklopol> always great to finish a 6-page article after about 10 hours of reading.
23:22:03 <ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language!
23:22:27 <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
23:24:58 <GregorR> `addquote <ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
23:24:59 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
23:25:28 <ehird> aka Bush oratory videos.
23:31:51 <ehird> Anyway, this was mentioned a while ago in here, but
23:32:09 <ehird> No Person except (a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States), at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.
23:32:34 <ehird> Nobody born in America since the ratification of the Constitution has been legally elected president.
23:32:38 <ehird> Wake up sheeple :-P
23:34:32 <ehird> [[While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage. This is why we fight.]]
23:34:35 <ehird> ↑ You can tell they're pretentious assholes from one paragraph!
23:35:10 <oklopol> it's barbeque but you also have tea
23:35:17 <ehird> http://begthequestion.info/; response telling them to shut the living fuck up: http://severinghaus.org/static/beg/
23:35:28 <ehird> oklopol: that sounds amazing
23:36:03 <ehird> oklopol: like, an #esoteric BTQ?
23:36:16 <ehird> holy shit, you've discovered the only way an #esoteric meetup could possibly work:
23:36:18 <ehird> with bacon and tea
23:36:27 -!- GregorR has changed nick to LaissezFaireLing.
23:36:40 <ehird> Gregor is laissezfaireling... in bed.
23:37:11 <ehird> So who in here likes (a) barbeqae and (b) tea?
23:37:18 -!- LaissezFaireLing has changed nick to write.
23:37:20 <ehird> Answers on a postcard^W^Hn IRC message.
23:37:31 <write> I like barbeque but not tea.
23:38:02 <ehird> write: (1, "Hello, world!\n", 14);
23:38:05 <ehird> Also, why on earth don't you like tea.
23:38:33 <write> Because, like coffee, beer, wine and virtually all other beverages, it tastes like bitter water to me?
23:39:02 <write> I drink water and soda. And soda water.
23:39:03 <oklopol> FireFly: write's tongue is retarded
23:39:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> with bacon and tea <-- no no. You forgot the garlic
23:39:11 <write> oklopol: Actually it's my nose.
23:39:13 <ehird> AnMaster: just put garlic on the bacon. anyway you're not invited :P
23:39:30 <oklopol> write: oh? i don't really have any sense of smell either
23:39:35 <FireFly> Ah, at first I thought you meant tounge, as in... speach
23:39:48 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you're not, because it'd end in physical violence
23:40:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Then you're super-not-invited!
23:40:10 <AnMaster> ehird, duh. Who cares about you :P
23:40:12 <write> Can we make bacon tea?
23:40:14 <ehird> The tea is uncompromisable. Isn't that right oklopol.
23:40:18 <oklopol> usually when someone farts in the room, i virtually have to stick my nose up their butt before i can smell it
23:40:26 <ehird> oklopol: I don't think you should do that
23:40:32 <write> oklopol: ... not recommended.
23:40:37 <ehird> write: Ooh... you could pour freshly-made tea over bacon while it's sizzling.
23:40:43 <ehird> Tea-flavoured bacon!
23:40:55 <write> ehird: I was thinking you put freshly-cooked bacon in water and boil it :P
23:41:05 <ehird> write: That'd just taste like broth or something.
23:41:13 <FireFly> Teacon, a convention about tea?
23:41:22 <ehird> oklopol: Is that when you masturbate into tea and then interrogate it?
23:41:44 <ehird> Teacon is pronounced like a Jamaican would say "taken".
23:41:52 <oklopol> no that's the afterparty for.. well augur
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23:41:56 <ehird> Te from tea, acon from bacon.
23:42:10 <write> oklopol: What, you have to be gay to masturbate into tea?
23:42:20 <ehird> (Also, "beercan" is pronounced like a Jamaican would pronounce "bacon".)
23:42:41 <write> ehird: YOUR JAMAICANS ARE WEIRD
23:43:09 <ehird> Anyway, we should totally do the BTQ.
23:43:09 <ehird> ...like, not in a sexual sense.
23:43:10 <oklopol> write: you probably have to be something other than gay to enjoy masturbating in tea, actually
23:43:15 <ehird> In a doing-of-creation-god-you-know-like-genesis ... thingy. Sense.
23:43:21 <oklopol> if someone knows the latin for tea, tell me what the fetish is called
23:47:25 <ehird> actually nevermind
23:47:36 <HackEgo> tea \ 1655, earlier chaa (1598, from Port. cha), from Malay teh and directly from Chinese (Amoy dialect) t'e, in Mandarin ch'a. The distribution of the different forms of the word reflects the spread of use of the beverage. The modern Eng. form, along with Fr. the, Sp. te, Ger. Tee, etc., derive via Du. thee from the Amoy
23:47:53 <write> I'm betting Latin for tea was "oh shit we haven't discovered tea yet"
23:48:05 <HackEgo> food \ O.E. foda, from P.Gmc. *fodon (cf. Goth. fodeins), from Gmc. root *fod-, equivalent of PIE *pa-/*pi- "to tend, keep, pasture, to protect, to guard, to feed" (cf. Gk. pateisthai "to feed;" L. pabulum "food, fodder," panis "bread," pasci "to feed," pascare "to graze, pasture, feed," pastor "shepherd," lit. "feeder;"
23:56:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:57:23 -!- write has changed nick to GregorR.
23:59:54 <pikhq> Delicious gravy is delicious.
00:05:51 <GregorR> Does anybody actually pronounce "towards" as two syllables?
00:05:57 <GregorR> I vote for spelling reform: tords
00:07:00 <GregorR> Well only if you needed two syllables there :P
00:21:48 <ehird> GregorR: I also don't omit consonants.
00:22:11 <GregorR> No, you only omit 'r's. OH WAIT
00:22:15 <augur_> gregor: tords as well.
00:23:06 <augur_> /tOr\dz/ pride what what
00:23:19 * GregorR puts on is tords pride pin
00:23:38 <GregorR> pikhq: Yeah, but I'm not sure who to blame for you :P
00:23:38 <ehird> Actually, I speak quite impeccably, when I think about it.
00:23:52 <pikhq> GregorR: Nor am I.
00:23:54 <GregorR> ehird: ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
00:23:54 <augur_> ehird: thats because you're a tord.
00:24:02 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
00:24:04 <pikhq> I've moved about every other year.
00:24:15 <ehird> GregorR: Is there some sort of thing about Britons and Rs?
00:24:25 <pikhq> ehird: Non-rhotic accents.
00:24:27 <GregorR> Yes, that's me making an American schwer sound :P
00:24:47 <augur> a lot of british accents, including RP, are non-rhotic
00:25:01 <augur> however gregor, thats not so much omitting r's as it is having no rhotic vowels
00:25:07 <augur> in phonetics, atleast
00:25:13 <augur> which i guess amounts to omitting r's
00:25:23 <pikhq> And a lot of American accents are rhotic -- because when they forked from Britain, most British accents were rhotic.
00:25:23 <augur> but then theres a good question of whether the r's are there in the first place
00:25:25 <GregorR> But since 'r' is usually considered a consonant (we don't have a schwer letter), it was easy :P
00:26:00 <augur> ehirds "towards" is probably [t+h@wO:dz]
00:26:04 <GregorR> I would like to take this opportunity to say "Tony Bleh"
00:26:15 <augur> no no gregorr what i mean is
00:26:31 <augur> theres a difference between [@r\] and [@`]
00:26:34 <ehird> GregorR: augur: It's not pronounced "Bleh", even by Britons, and here is proof that I pronounce Rs: http://filebin.ca/yommfq/arrrr.ogg
00:26:51 <ehird> GregorR: shaddup you
00:27:00 <ehird> (sounds crap = bad intonation; i was just getting the point across)
00:27:03 <augur> ehird, its probably not "bleh"
00:27:09 <augur> but it DOES lack an r/
00:27:16 <ehird> Yeah, it's more like "Blaih".
00:27:24 <augur> its probably more [ble@]
00:27:28 <ehird> Anyway, arrrr.ogg shuts up all you non-rhoters.
00:27:32 <pikhq> ehird: So, what you're saying is that it's about as bad as the Python's mock American accents?
00:27:42 <augur> anyway, i'm rhotic, so.
00:27:48 <GregorR> I LURVE when the Pythons mock American accents.
00:27:52 <ehird> augur: is arrrr.ogg really lacking in /r/s?
00:27:53 <GregorR> That = hilarious fun times for all?
00:27:57 <augur> ehird, didnt listen
00:27:59 <augur> give me a bit and i will
00:28:04 <oklopol> what does ehird say in that thing
00:28:11 <ehird> "Britons omit Rs? Really?"
00:28:24 <augur> i have to go make my blackboard.
00:28:25 <oklopol> "britons are mi tords? really?"
00:29:08 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Does anybody actually pronounce "towards" as two syllables? <-- yes?
00:29:12 <pikhq> Well, at least it's better than what I shall call (for lack of a better term) hyper-rhotic accents.
00:29:20 <GregorR> AnMaster: Argh we've already established that I'm wrong here :P
00:29:56 <pikhq> Southern accents are stunning in both the length and the amount of their r's.
00:30:55 <ehird> oklopol: also it's more "britons are mit arse, really?"
00:31:15 <AnMaster> about "r"... Isn't that RP to drop the r in some place?
00:31:17 <GregorR> I remember while I was in Italy a very-international group including myself were talking, and we determined that Americans and Australians should have loud public conversations so that everybody else can say "well at least my accent isn't THAT offensive"
00:31:27 <ehird> RP is kind of crap.
00:31:44 <ehird> augur can probably write in formal lingustic language what my accent is :-P
00:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe, that is what they *try* to teach us learning English as a second language though
00:32:13 <ehird> it's fine on like the BBC and stuff
00:32:14 <augur> ehird: going by your speech, yes. [br\It@nz omIt a`:z r\iIli]
00:32:20 <ehird> but i'm not in to that whole upper-class bullshit :P
00:32:27 <ehird> augur: so is that rhotic or not
00:32:32 <GregorR> AnMaster: I have two friends from Sweden (in particular); one omits 'r's and the other doesn't. The one who doesn't could probably be convincingly American if he changed up his emphasis a bit.
00:32:59 <augur> its either a`:z or a_v:z
00:33:03 <oklopol> ehird: oklopol: also it's more "britons are mit arse, really?" <<< yes, i guess i just wanted the tords there.
00:33:20 <augur> its british rhotic.
00:33:27 <GregorR> So why is that? British taught in schools, but all the imported TV programs are American?
00:33:30 <ehird> augur: Which is uncommon or something? :P
00:34:19 <augur> it just doesnt have a coda r, it has rhotic vowels. which is what you'd expect in a rhotic british dialect
00:34:20 <GregorR> Conclusions: Tobias learned English from books, Johan learned English from TV ;)
00:34:22 <augur> just like rhotic american dialects
00:34:33 <augur> the real question is whether or not there is an r underlyingly or not
00:34:50 <ehird> augur: So what is my accent, anyway? It's probably not southern, but it's far... blander than most northern ones, too.
00:34:56 <augur> also, ehird, you're so adorable.
00:35:00 <ehird> I assume you can tell from one sample.
00:35:00 * augur puts ehird on a keychain
00:35:10 <augur> no, i dont know what your dialect is. im not a dialectologist.
00:35:11 <AnMaster> GregorR, How the hell do you pronounce those names in English? I'd love to hear how you mess them up
00:35:17 <augur> im a syntactician/semanticist
00:35:25 <AnMaster> you won't mess them up as much as my name
00:35:30 <augur> speaking of british r's
00:35:34 <ehird> augur: well fuck you, become a dialectologist :P
00:35:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Toe-bee-as, and Joe-han. :P
00:35:48 <augur> the welsh accent has so many r's :o
00:35:55 <pikhq> (I'm too lazy for the IPA)
00:36:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, *snicker* *HAHA* *LOL* *ROFL*
00:36:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: America: mispronouncing names for 300 years.
00:36:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, where did you get the "e" in "Joe-han" from?
00:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Like this: http://filebin.ca/xkaxpj/tobiasandjohansittinginatrees-w-e-d-i-s-hing.ogg
00:36:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I think it's fairly correct.
00:36:51 <oklopol> tobias shouldn't be *that* different
00:36:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... I'm saying it's pronounced like "Joe", the name.
00:37:06 <ehird> I over-pronounced Tobias a bit, though.
00:37:10 <oklopol> it doesn't even start with the same character
00:37:13 <augur> firefly: shouldnt you be smuggling cows?
00:37:14 <GregorR> AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/vyowo/TobiasJohan.ogg
00:37:52 <augur> FireFly: you're a culturally inept fool. :|
00:37:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, Joe-han is quite funny IMO
00:38:07 <ehird> AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/xkaxpj/tobiasandjohansittinginatrees-w-e-d-i-s-hing.ogg
00:38:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, drop the e sound and you would be closer
00:38:20 <ehird> I said Jo- instead of Yo- though.
00:38:21 <GregorR> ... I pronounce an 'e' sound somewhere?
00:38:41 <pikhq> ... There's an actual "e" sound in "Joe"?
00:38:48 <pikhq> English spelling is a fickle bitch.
00:38:50 <augur> ehird, no theres no.
00:39:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, ehird: Please sync your recording volume, I need to mess with replay gain to hear ehird while not getting my hearing broken by GregorR!
00:39:16 <ehird> my mic is just low-volume
00:39:20 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm trying to see where there could POSSIBLY be an 'e' sound here >_O
00:39:21 <augur> "Joe" does not have an "e" sound.
00:39:30 <ehird> augur: http://filebin.ca/ttkeqx/fuckbutt.ogg
00:39:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/xkaxpj/tobiasandjohansittinginatrees-w-e-d-i-s-hing.ogg <-- same as first tiem
00:39:37 <augur> no it does not, ehird.
00:39:39 <ehird> AnMaster: it's complete.
00:39:53 <oklopol> ehird: yours is even worse than GregorR's
00:39:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ends at "tobias and joeh..."?
00:40:04 <augur> ehird, record your "Joe" for uss.
00:40:06 <pikhq> I say this knowing full-well how the name is pronounced, it being *my middle name*.
00:40:12 <ehird> AnMaster: no, i just finish it quickly
00:40:18 <ehird> pikhq: augur: http://filebin.ca/ttkeqx/fuckbutt.ogg
00:40:25 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ... There's an actual "e" sound in "Joe"? <-- well How would you prounonce it without the "e"? Like "Jo"?
00:40:29 <ehird> in MY DIALECT, joe has an e
00:40:40 <augur> i listened to that
00:40:44 <augur> there is no "e" sound.
00:40:49 <GregorR> "Joe" and "Jo" are pronounced the same. "Jo" is a female name.
00:40:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, duh. I meant how would you pronounce "Jo"
00:41:02 <ehird> yeah well your mom has no e sound
00:41:16 <augur> well her name is "Michelle" so she has one.
00:41:18 <AnMaster> then I guess the quality of the o is wrong
00:41:25 <ehird> augur: i never said michelle i said "your mom"
00:41:30 <oklopol> augur: do english speakers actually have a uniform definition for the "e" sound?
00:41:36 <AnMaster> can't record atm, people sleeping in the next room
00:41:36 <augur> yes, you did say "your mom"
00:41:39 <FireFly> Well, there's a difference in the swedish and english o sound
00:41:41 <augur> but you didnt say it in quotes
00:41:53 <augur> therefore it was a use of the terms not a reference to the phrase "your mom"
00:41:54 <oklopol> GregorR: that was an actual question though :P
00:41:56 <pikhq> English phonology is *also* a fickle bitch.
00:41:57 <augur> therefore you're wrong.
00:42:04 <augur> pikhq: no, its not
00:42:04 <pikhq> And has 0 correlation with English spelling.
00:42:08 <augur> the phonology isnt tricky
00:42:14 <augur> the spelling is ... meh.
00:42:15 <GregorR> oklopol: No. Not even slightly. I don't have a clue which sound you refer to when you say 'e' sound.
00:42:18 <augur> the spelling is here and there.
00:42:25 <augur> the problem with english spelling today
00:42:28 <GregorR> oklopol: Could be 'eh', 'ee', even 'ae'
00:42:30 <augur> is that it makes PERFECT sense
00:42:34 <augur> for english 1000 yers ago.
00:42:47 <pikhq> augur: Okay, yeah... The only tricky bit with English phonology is that there's rather a lot of phonemes.
00:42:56 <oklopol> GregorR: ae as in ? well i get your point anyway
00:43:01 <augur> no more than, say, finnish
00:43:04 <GregorR> I'm fairly certain Swedish has like a trillion more sounds than English :P
00:43:06 <pikhq> And some languages have it worse. Slavic languages. *shudder*
00:43:17 <ehird> it's like the worst language evar
00:43:21 <augur> pikhq: english isnt all that bad in terms of phoneme inventory
00:43:27 <augur> if you want a crazy phoneme inventory
00:43:29 <GregorR> English rules because it has absolutely no regulating body.
00:43:39 <pikhq> ehird: Got a lot of words.
00:43:40 <augur> 15 or 20 DISTINCT uvular sounds
00:43:56 <ehird> we need dynamically linked word libraries
00:44:00 <AnMaster> <oklopol> GregorR: ae as in ä? well i get your point anyway <--- is that "mainland" Swedish ä or "finlandsvenskt" ä?
00:44:13 <ehird> it's like preferring PHP because it has like 5,000 names in the main namespace
00:44:16 <GregorR> If I Recall Correctly Eclectically
00:44:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:44:17 <AnMaster> though the difference for "o" sound is much larger
00:45:01 <oklopol> which reminds me, augur, are you still interested in teaching me phonology
00:45:11 <augur> phonetics and phonology
00:45:25 <oklopol> sure, also i'd like you to help me with my crappy american accent
00:45:45 <augur> cant help you there. i mean, i can try, but im not an accent coach.
00:45:58 <augur> also, i like your accent. :|
00:45:59 <ehird> <augur> oklopol: to pronounce the /O/ sound, you open your mouth wiiiiiiide, and then suck any dick that happens to come in
00:46:04 <pikhq> augur: Okay, the tricky bit with English is this: there is no mapping between phonemes and graphemes.
00:46:07 <augur> augur: pretty true.
00:46:15 <ehird> 00:46 augur: augur: pretty true.
00:46:22 <ehird> `addquote <augur> augur: pretty true.
00:46:23 <HackEgo> 47|<augur> augur: pretty true.
00:46:23 <augur> pikhq: theres some. its not as straightforward as finnish, say.
00:46:28 <AnMaster> CAN ANYONE BUT Swedes and Finns manage it?
00:46:43 <augur> did i respond to myself?
00:46:46 <ehird> ON IRC YOU CAN PRONOUNCE ANYTHING
00:47:01 <pikhq> And there's quite a few more phonemes than letters. Which makes it hard to make a decent spelling system without breaking out the diacritics.
00:47:02 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative
00:47:04 <GregorR> WTF. I just went to download Schubert's Ave Maria, and instead I got the prayer put to his music???
00:47:23 <pikhq> That's rather stunning.
00:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, as in: using your voice
00:47:47 <ehird> AnMaster: "how sad"?
00:48:27 <AnMaster> can you please write it in IPA or I can't understand you
00:49:32 <ehird> I refuse to learn English
00:49:38 <ehird> Can you please write it in Lojban or I can't understand you
00:49:43 <pikhq> I would like to congratulate Japanese on having a really simple phonology.
00:49:52 <GregorR> I atteikties mācīties latviešu valodā.
00:50:15 <ehird> pikhq: I would like to cancel out that congratulation of Japanese because it has a really complex everything else.
00:50:19 <augur> ipa:ɧ = ipa:ʃ͡x = sampa:Sx)
00:50:33 <AnMaster> augur, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative says "X-SAMPA x\"
00:50:34 <ehird> oklopol knows lojban though. well, bits.
00:50:39 <AnMaster> not sure if that is relevant here
00:50:40 <ehird> heck, i know a bit of lojban.
00:50:44 <pikhq> ehird: No, it has really rather simple grammar as well.
00:50:50 <ehird> pikhq: apart from that :P
00:50:52 <AnMaster> augur, anyway what do you mean debated?
00:50:58 <pikhq> And its writing system is really nice except for the kanji.
00:51:04 <augur> as in many phoneticians dont think its actually real
00:51:05 <ehird> lojban is probably the easiest language to learn
00:51:16 <ehird> pikhq: kanji is a really stupid idea
00:51:17 <augur> lojban is ridiculous to learn :D
00:51:18 <AnMaster> augur, I can easily pronounce the relevant sound. I don't know what you suggest it is instead
00:51:20 <ehird> "let's just have one letter... for EVERYTHING"
00:51:20 <pikhq> And its vocabulary is not hard, aside from the honorifics.
00:51:28 <ehird> i learned the basics and some vocab in a few days
00:51:37 <augur> anmaster: im sure you can, but that doesnt mean its actually a simultaneous S and x
00:51:37 <ehird> and i have been totally unable to learn any other language in my whole life
00:51:41 <pikhq> ehird: No harder than English.
00:51:48 <augur> it probably DOES exist, i think, but thats irrelevant ;)
00:51:52 <ehird> pikhq: what isn't?
00:51:55 <augur> ehird: why, because its incredibly unnatural
00:52:07 <ehird> augur: no it's not
00:52:16 <ehird> sounds like the opinion of someone who's never used it
00:52:19 <ehird> it was easy for me
00:52:25 <AnMaster> augur, but I know someone from Germany (who lived in Sweden since 1950 and is now about 70 years old) having problems with the sound.
00:52:25 <ehird> you don't see the logical underpinnings most of the time
00:52:25 <pikhq> In fact, quite a bit simpler, because the symbols at least have something to do with the meaning.
00:52:26 <augur> doesnt matter how EASY it was
00:52:31 <augur> its still unnatural.
00:52:39 <AnMaster> so clearly it is not "They have very similar acoustic properties, not dissimilar from the /ç/ sound of southern Dutch or German ch after e or i, and feature distinct labialization" the same as that
00:52:41 <ehird> augur: unnatural is such a stupid fucking way to dis something
00:52:44 <augur> anmaster: irrelevant.
00:52:44 <ehird> so's living in a house
00:52:47 <ehird> so's using a computer
00:52:53 <ehird> so's doing all the fucking stuff we do
00:52:55 <augur> ehird, its not a dis. its just a statement of fact.
00:53:00 <ehird> augur: then why is learning lojban silly
00:53:03 <ehird> and i dispute that it's unnatural
00:53:04 <oklopol> augur: i find it much more natural than finnish
00:53:07 <ehird> it's just UNFAMILIAR
00:53:09 <augur> its unnatural, and not incredibly easy to learn.
00:53:14 <AnMaster> augur, how so? Wouldn't it indicate it isn't the same sound
00:53:19 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:53:25 <oklopol> natural languages are simply crap
00:53:25 <augur> ehird, you can dispute that its unnatural. you're still wrong.
00:53:25 <ehird> augur — pioneer of argument by because-I-said-so
00:53:34 <ehird> also arbiter of all that is natural
00:53:45 <augur> no, pioneer of "i'm actually familiar with the typological distribution of syntactic properties and you're not"
00:53:55 <pikhq> He's a linguiſt. I'd þink þat he'd know þeſe ſorts of þings.
00:54:02 <GregorR> Humans are a part of nature. Everything we produce is therefore by definition natural. In fact, there is nothing unnatural in existence, by definition. Period.
00:54:11 <ehird> because we all know that when learning and using languages, we think subconsciously about the typological distribution of syntactic properties
00:54:13 <oklopol> pikhq: think and that have different sounds
00:54:18 <ehird> and this is what makes languages natural or not
00:54:22 <pikhq> GregorR: Ah, all-natural cyanide. :)
00:54:33 <GregorR> Well cyanide is CERTAINLY natural.
00:54:35 <pikhq> oklopol: And in English, þ = th.
00:54:37 <augur> ehird: no, but those typological distributions come about because of inherent cognitive biases
00:54:46 <GregorR> Cyanide is natural by any definition.
00:54:47 <augur> biases that you cant get around.
00:54:56 <augur> cyanide is produced in apple seeds :o
00:54:59 <pikhq> That in Old English and other Germanic languages, þ and ð are different doesn't change that in English, we just use þ.
00:55:00 <ehird> augur: strange, then, that tons of people who have used lojban didn't feel anything was odd about it at all
00:55:04 <augur> oddly, it smells like almond, not apple.
00:55:04 <pikhq> (when it's still used. :))
00:55:06 <ehird> and didn't seem to have some huge mental blockage
00:55:06 <oklopol> pikhq: sorry, i just see random crap, though they were phonemes of some sort :)
00:55:13 <AnMaster> <pikhq> oklopol: And in English, th = th. <-- uh yeah?
00:55:15 <ehird> augur: strange, then, that there are people who can think fluently in lojban
00:55:28 <ehird> oh wait, the typological distributions! clearly we all secretly hate lojban and it's so unnatural
00:55:30 <augur> ehird: theres a difference between being able to use it, and being able to use it naturally.
00:55:34 <augur> theres a huge difference.
00:55:41 <pikhq> AnMaſter: Your ſcript is dumb, BTW.
00:55:49 <ehird> augur: there are multiple people who are fluent in lojban. there are people who can think in lojban without translation (1 or 2, I think)
00:55:55 <oklopol> pikhq: err, so are you saying think and that have the same sound, or that your character just meant the same as the english th, that is, both?
00:55:58 <augur> you can be fluent in lojban
00:56:06 <ehird> augur: you're ignoring my second clause
00:56:09 <augur> fluency is not the same as speaking it natively.
00:56:14 <pikhq> oklopol: I'm saying that the two different phonemes are written with the same character.
00:56:19 <ehird> any language you can think in without translation does not have a mental blockage
00:56:28 <pikhq> oklopol: It's the letter thorn, BTW.
00:56:33 <oklopol> pikhq: right, i can't really keep up with this much talk :P
00:56:33 <pikhq> oklopol: Also, get you some UTF-8.
00:56:33 <augur> didnt say it would, ehird
00:56:35 <ehird> a mental blockage that has no effects and is completely unobservable is an invisible pink unicorn
00:56:40 <pikhq> It comes up in this channel a *lot*.
00:56:42 <augur> but you dont understand what i mean
00:56:50 <oklopol> pikhq: it should be on, but i can't get mirc to obey me.
00:57:00 <augur> ehird, just to satisfy you tho
00:57:04 <pikhq> oklopol: And there's your first failure.
00:57:06 <ehird> augur: you haven't defined what's natural and why apart from using theoretics; you haven't provided any reason for why this mental blockage has never shown up
00:57:07 <augur> ill take a look at lojban grammar
00:57:17 <ehird> i see no reason to consider what you say reasonable
00:57:23 <augur> i didnt say anything about mental blockage
00:57:33 <ehird> you said it was unnatural and went against built-in cognitive biases
00:57:36 <pikhq> augur: Should be fun. Human language with regular grammar? :D
00:57:45 <augur> thats not the same as a "mental blockage"
00:57:46 <ehird> maybe we have wildly differing definitions of cognitive biases; yours involves them doing nothing at all
00:57:51 <oklopol> pikhq: mirc? it's my only failure, you silly goof
00:57:51 <augur> pikhq: i doubt that lojban is regular.
00:58:03 <ehird> it has a yacc parser
00:58:04 <pikhq> augur: Erm. Context-free.
00:58:06 <AnMaster> augur, it can be parsed with yacc
00:58:14 <ehird> <AnMaster> :slowpoke:
00:58:16 <pikhq> Its official grammar is written in BNF.
00:58:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: That makes it context-free, not regular.
00:58:27 <augur> anmaster: uh. yacc isnt a regular language parser tho is it
00:58:30 <ehird> 00:58 ehird: it has a yacc parser […] 00:58 AnMaster: augur, it can be parsed with yacc
00:58:36 <ehird> augur: it's a programming language parser
00:58:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh indeed. Too tired...
00:58:49 <GregorR> Btw, re:cyanide and almonds: The common myth (or actually true statement that's so wildly misunderstood that it may as well be a myth) is that cyanide tastes like bitter almonds. The truth is that A) bitter almonds are a separate but related nut to almonds and B) bitter almonds taste like cyanide because THEY'RE FULL OF F***ING CYANIDE
00:58:50 <augur> whats that got to do with anything
00:59:12 <ehird> AnMaster: multiple seconds
00:59:12 <oklopol> ehird: you do know regular grammars are a very specific concept?
00:59:16 <pikhq> ehird: Yacc does context-free grammars (and a few non-context-free grammars with some fiddling), not regular. ;)
00:59:21 <augur> i would wager that lojban is not context free
00:59:25 <AnMaster> ehird, your timestamps includes no seconds...
00:59:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is clearly another exaggeration, since you love them so
01:00:25 <ehird> two-three seconds for me
01:00:27 <augur> are you fluent in lojban
01:00:28 <ehird> anyway it was a joke
01:00:38 <ehird> augur: no. i want to be and it is a goal of mine
01:00:43 <ehird> AnMaster: my client doesn't record it so tough shit
01:00:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you fail indeed. Tough shit
01:00:54 <augur> well, i would bet that there are non-CF aspects of lojban
01:01:04 <ehird> <AnMaster> WAAH STOP MAKING JOKES I'M SO INSECURE
01:01:08 <oklopol> augur: why would it be ridiculous to learn a language that is not natural?
01:01:13 <ehird> augur: it has a yacc parser, and yacc does context-free grammar
01:01:23 <AnMaster> ehird, how was that funny to begin with
01:01:27 <ehird> augur: anyway, when learning simple lojban it was as smooth as butter and never felt unnatural. coming from someone who's never been able to learn languages
01:01:28 <oklopol> also, augur, there are variables, maybe using undefined variables is wrong and non-cf.
01:01:35 <ehird> <AnMaster> Stop it stop it stop it I must reassert myself
01:01:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what does "slowpoke" even mean?
01:01:51 <augur> oklopol: its not impossible, its just that natural biases tend to push us to analyze things in a particular way and certain specific aspects are INCREDIBLY difficult to get around
01:01:52 <AnMaster> which was my original question implied by "?"
01:01:52 <ehird> :slowpoke: = http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/slowpoke.gif
01:02:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, and what does *that* mean
01:02:11 <ehird> http://www.answers.com/slowpoke
01:02:22 <augur> ehird: simple lojban is not likely to be unnatural ;)
01:02:32 <ehird> augur: but there isn't any complex lojban!
01:02:39 <ehird> it's just simple, slightly less simple, and you go on to learning the vocab
01:02:44 <augur> then its not a fully expressing language!
01:02:46 <oklopol> well right, not really directly related to stupidity
01:02:55 <ehird> you just piece shit together
01:02:58 <oklopol> i just assumed it was an insult
01:03:01 <ehird> the words are all quite short, so
01:03:05 <augur> thats irrelevant ehird
01:03:07 <AnMaster> ehird, "One that moves, works, or acts slowly." <-- as in "considers his moves, doesn't act rashly"?
01:03:08 <augur> im talking about syntax.
01:03:28 <augur> ehird, how does lojban constraint unbounded dependencies
01:03:38 <oklopol> augur: i'd need to know what you mean by natural biases
01:03:40 <ehird> <AnMaster> Fuck. Fuck he called me a slowpoke. I must reassert myself. So insecure. Ahem. Okay. Let's respin this, uhh, let's look it up.
01:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, both ways to interpret it seems possible
01:03:43 <ehird> augur: wtf does that mean
01:03:44 <pikhq> Just a sec while I hand you the formal grammar.
01:03:46 <ehird> AnMaster: neither.
01:03:49 <ehird> it means slowpoke.
01:03:59 <ehird> augur: btw, you know that #lojban is, for a large part, conversed in lojban?
01:04:03 <augur> ehird: it means non-local argument filling.
01:04:06 <AnMaster> ehird, hah. Recursive definitions sucks. :/
01:04:07 <ehird> without any difficulty
01:04:08 <pikhq> augur: http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.html Yacc and Backus-Naur form.
01:04:11 <augur> ehird, none of that matters
01:04:17 <ehird> augur: you mean like skipping an argument to a predicate sort of thing?
01:04:20 <ehird> yeah lojban has that.
01:04:33 <augur> ehird: im not sure if thats quite what i mean. i'd have to see what _you_ mean
01:04:38 <AnMaster> ehird, also what are those impersonations things on about?...
01:04:49 <augur> but i mean things like question words, or topicalization, or parasitic gapping
01:04:49 <AnMaster> they aren't even close to what I think
01:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm making fun of you.
01:05:09 <AnMaster> ehird, oh is it that. I thought you were just being silly...
01:05:10 <oklopol> augur: i don't think it constraints them
01:05:13 <ehird> augur: drives(Guy, OtherGuy <SKIP> ToPlace). vs drives(Guy, OtherGuy, AwesomeCar, ToPlace).
01:05:22 <ehird> augur: "non-local argument filling"
01:05:24 <augur> no not that at all.
01:05:26 <ehird> you can skip about the argument list to the predicates
01:05:29 <AnMaster> ehird, please wake me up when you arrive at the "fun" bit of it.
01:05:37 <oklopol> well, probably don't understand the question
01:05:42 <ehird> AnMaster: ooh you're going? awesome!
01:05:43 <pikhq> augur: Read the formal grammar instead of asking ehird. ;)
01:05:53 <ehird> the yacc is autogenerated
01:05:57 <ehird> and has names like RRR_49df_d
01:06:01 <pikhq> ehird: There's also BNF.
01:06:09 <ehird> augur's asking about semantics
01:06:13 <ehird> the bnf just parses the syntactical tree
01:06:18 <augur> shut up for a second.
01:06:19 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, but the risk of falling asleep when talking to you isn't insignificant in the best of situations...
01:06:21 <ehird> most of the predicate/argument/etc is part of the semantics, au
01:06:25 <ehird> instead of the syntax
01:06:27 <pikhq> He's asking about syntax.
01:06:48 <ehird> i don't know linguistic terms, okay?
01:06:50 <ehird> don't expect me to read minds
01:07:11 <oklopol> text is a very unnatural media for interactive conversations when you're tired says i.
01:07:27 <augur> in english you have things like parasitic gaps like so:
01:07:39 <GregorR> oklopol: A never-ending flood of linguistics is bad regardless of all else :P
01:07:41 <ehird> oklopol: do you know any curses in lojban?
01:07:47 <augur> "This is the article_i that Mary filed t_i without reading t_i"
01:07:59 <oklopol> ehird: that's one of lojban's weak spots imo
01:08:07 <augur> where t_i is a marker that denotes a lack of a symbol
01:08:11 <oklopol> you usually use mabla, and attach it to other stuff
01:08:21 <ehird> augur: i think lojban has shit like that
01:08:28 <augur> ehird, if it does, its not CF!
01:08:30 <ehird> i don't really know much lojban
01:08:35 <ehird> augur: well who cares :P
01:08:37 <augur> but ill read this grammar for now <3
01:08:44 <ehird> meanwhile, http://perpetuum-immobile.de/komo.png is still funny
01:09:01 <ehird> but only because it's so hard to translate
01:09:04 <ehird> iirc it goes something like:
01:09:16 <ehird> "tell me what you will do to me [but also a command of that doing]"
01:09:19 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:09:19 <AnMaster> <GregorR> oklopol: A never-ending flood of linguistics is bad regardless of all else :P <-- "head on" I believe the idiom is
01:09:25 <ehird> i.e. do something then tell me what it is you did
01:09:34 <ehird> then some emotion thingy
01:09:38 <ehird> then he hits the other guy
01:09:41 <ehird> then he says "hit"
01:09:46 <ehird> it's not actually funny
01:09:46 <oklopol> ehird: nothing says "me" is the object
01:09:58 <ehird> but, you laugh once you've translated it
01:10:02 <ehird> because otherwise it'd be wasted effort
01:10:11 <augur> pikhq: that grammar is unreadable.
01:10:14 <ehird> the field of lojban humour is not well developed.
01:10:17 <ehird> augur: i told you so
01:10:23 <ehird> it's not for human consumption
01:10:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:10:39 <augur> i will look at the learn-lojban thing and try to translate it into normal linguistics.
01:10:49 <pikhq> augur: Good to know.
01:11:03 <ehird> augur: lojban is awesome regardless of how unnatural it is anyway
01:11:23 <ehird> Sgeo: RUN ON TO A CAN
01:11:37 <GregorR> Sgeo: RUN INTO A TRASH CAN
01:11:43 <Sgeo> How do I make a cheap flash drive not break when I take it out?
01:11:44 <augur> Sgeo: RUN TO THE HILLS
01:11:51 <GregorR> Sgeo: RUN 'ROUND THE MILLS
01:11:57 <oklopol> anyway, i don't really like lojban *that* much, it just feels too human-compatible imo
01:12:00 <ehird> Sgeo: RUN TO THE FILLS
01:12:05 <augur> Sgeo: RUN FOR YOUR LIFE
01:12:07 <GregorR> Sgeo: RUN 'TIL YOU GET CHILLS
01:12:07 <ehird> Sgeo: RUN AND THEN KILL
01:12:12 <ehird> Sgeo: RUN AS PER THE DRILL
01:12:17 <oklopol> i'd just like math + a few words for defining physical objects and a few mental processes
01:12:18 <pikhq> I want a language in sexps.
01:12:22 <ehird> Sgeo: RUN BECAUSE YOU HAVE A BILL
01:12:29 <GregorR> Sgeo: RUN AND DON'T BE STILL
01:12:32 <augur> have i ever mentioned how much i hate numetal?
01:12:33 * Sgeo saw a Phoenix Wrong where there was "Run to the hills. Run for your life"
01:12:46 <augur> sgeo: a phoenix wrong?
01:12:47 <GregorR> AnMaster: STOP THIS MEME HOW?
01:12:48 <ehird> Sgeo: RUN LEST THEY MAKE YOU TAKE YOUR PILL
01:12:49 <pikhq> augur: No. But it's worth hating.
01:13:09 <ehird> oklopol: mathematics + bayesian probability + utilitarianism + a few things like does(Agent,Thing) and stuff
01:13:16 <Sgeo> augur, youtube it
01:13:17 * pikhq listens to Quadrophenia happily
01:13:48 <oklopol> ehird: you need the physical objects.
01:14:10 <ehird> oklopol: but that's all subjective
01:14:16 <ehird> you just need functions for experience
01:14:17 <oklopol> well i mean vectors mostly
01:14:21 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYPyOIaLdTU
01:14:25 <ehird> and bayes + utilitarianism handles most the rest
01:14:33 <augur> oklopol: im willing to bet that IF lojban is actually completely naturalistic
01:14:34 <Sgeo> (nsfw language and themes occasionally)
01:14:41 <augur> that its run of the mill in how its naturalistic.
01:14:43 <ehird> (note: this imposes a system of morality that nobody actually goes by it 100% on your speakers)
01:14:57 <ehird> augur: no, oklopol is just ridiculously unnatural :D
01:15:16 <oklopol> augur: it's better than natural languages in any case
01:15:27 <augur> oklopol: probably not!
01:15:48 <augur> sgeo: how does an iron maiden lyric figure in with phoenix wright?
01:15:48 <oklopol> i usually just learn natural languages' vocab, the rest is boring
01:15:59 <augur> oklopol: thats because you dont know much about the rest!
01:16:00 <GregorR> I want Yu Wan Mei Miscellaneous Flavor Paste :(
01:16:03 <ehird> augur is just a fetishist for crappy, crufty old languages
01:16:06 <augur> natural language syntax and semantics is awesome
01:16:12 <ehird> GregorR: get the Device, I'm sure it can manufacture it for you
01:16:23 <GregorR> ehird: I don't have that kind o' scratch!
01:16:25 <augur> far more complicated and interesting than computer language syntax and semantics :o
01:16:29 -!- coppro has joined.
01:16:31 <pikhq> On a side note: The Who is a great band.
01:16:35 <ehird> GregorR: the device can print money
01:16:39 <ehird> you just have to have faith
01:16:54 <ehird> i don't really like the who
01:16:55 <oklopol> augur: i'm saying they are not interesting to use; they would be interesting to learn if they were taught properly.
01:17:02 <pikhq> ehird: You have no taste.
01:17:07 <ehird> AnMaster: the Yu Wan Mei Device, of course.
01:17:13 <ehird> It has been completed and is now available for sale.
01:17:16 <augur> oklopol, the languages themselves are actually pretty meh. its the properties of Language thats awesome
01:17:16 <oklopol> but languages are rarely taught rigorously enough for my taste
01:17:17 <pikhq> And for that, you die.
01:17:25 <ehird> pikhq: i love rock, I just don't really like the who
01:17:29 <Sgeo> augur, the same that the Simpsons have to do with Phoenix Wright
01:17:32 <ehird> AnMaster: It has the following features:
01:17:39 <oklopol> augur: right now we're speaking the same language
01:17:39 <augur> i would love to see a polysynthetic programming language
01:17:56 <ehird> AnMaster: for $4,250.99 you get this stylish device: http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20090720/yuwanmei_device_large.jpg
01:18:01 <ehird> allow me to find the list of features
01:18:23 * GregorR STILL wants Miscellaneous Flavor Paste!
01:18:41 <ehird> Your Device features include:
01:18:41 <ehird> Digital counter starting at 999,999,999
01:18:42 <ehird> Patented random ticking mechanism
01:18:44 <ehird> High quality audio Chinese Anthem on infinite loop
01:18:46 <ehird> Video projector of our great and illustrious Chinese leaders
01:18:52 <ehird> Sharp edges honed from Chinese sword master
01:18:54 <ehird> Red blinking lights, randomly accompanied by loud siren noise
01:18:56 <ehird> Requires 12 AA batteries, 4 D batteries, 7 AAA batteries.
01:19:13 <AnMaster> * GregorR STILL wants Miscellaneous Flavor Paste! <-- link
01:19:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you know it's fish time?
01:19:32 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.yuwanmei.com/products#8
01:19:35 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it a bit dark for that (at least here)
01:19:54 <AnMaster> I assumed that was a typo for "fishing"
01:19:55 <GregorR> AnMaster: http://store.theonion.com/yu-wan-mei-miscellaneous-tasty-paste-p-1020.html
01:19:57 <ehird> AnMaster: No. ROBUSTNESS IS UNAVOIDABLE with Yu Wan Mei fish products.
01:20:08 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/american_consumer_masses_agree_it
01:20:12 <ehird> The American Consumer Masses agree.
01:20:17 <ehird> Hooray for Yu Wan Mei!
01:20:44 <AnMaster> I don't think this will make more sense when I wake up
01:20:50 <AnMaster> but now I'm going to bed anyway
01:20:55 <ehird> AnMaster: No, you must read it!
01:21:01 <GregorR> AnMaster will wake up covered in Miscellaneous Tasty Paste.
01:21:07 <ehird> AnMaster: It is from the reputable newspaper the Onion, a subsidiary of Yu Wan Me corporation!
01:21:22 <coppro> like to see a polysynthetic programming language
01:21:33 <pikhq> Why are you telling me that?
01:21:37 <ehird> polygamous programming language!
01:21:47 <coppro> oh wait, that was augur
01:22:27 <augur> coppro: why not? :(
01:22:45 <coppro> I don't like polysynthetic languages to start with
01:23:00 <augur> coppro: too esoteric? :D
01:23:11 <ehird> 01:20 neptunepink: coi
01:23:13 <ehird> #lojban are very coy.
01:23:16 <coppro> augur: no, just annoying
01:23:29 <ehird> Hmm, there're my British organisation-is-a-group leanings showing up.
01:23:32 <augur> coppro: why annoying? :|
01:23:40 * Sgeo downloads Interstella 5555
01:23:48 <augur> coppro, polysynthetic languages have words!
01:24:00 <coppro> no, they have /word/ :P
01:24:14 <augur> no they have words
01:24:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's awesome. Ehird is incapable of music appreciation.
01:24:22 <augur> often you only need one or two
01:24:31 <ehird> pikhq: I like Daft Punk.
01:24:34 <ehird> I do not like the film.
01:24:42 <ehird> (No, I really like Daft Punk.)
01:25:27 <ehird> Well gee, clearly a few half-assed music videos pieced together is the standard on which all anime is based on.
01:25:30 <GregorR> There is absolutely no situation in which "<pikhq> s/music/anime/" makes sense :P
01:25:33 <ehird> I apologise profusely.
01:25:47 <Sgeo> tbh, the only anime I've ever watched was Death Note
01:26:09 <Sgeo> #esoteric: ...
01:26:17 <pikhq> Ehird shows massive misunderstanding.
01:26:22 <pikhq> Sgeo, that's just sad.
01:26:23 -!- ehird has set topic: ... http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
01:26:27 <ehird> pikhq: "ehird", please.
01:27:10 <pikhq> Fine, fine. Ellɨoṫṫ.
01:27:27 <ehird> Crossing is and dotting ts etc.
01:27:44 * Sgeo would capitalize pikhq similarly, but doesn't see any portions of eir real name in their
01:27:47 <ehird> There should be a jewnicode chracter for "etc.".
01:28:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: My real name is Josiah Worcester.
01:28:13 <pikhq> No real name within.
01:28:16 <ehird> Sgeo: His name is Phil Iklïx Huqiäa.
01:28:26 <GregorR> My mother's maiden name is Wertheimer ...
01:28:31 <ehird> → Phil IKlïx HuQiäa.
01:29:18 <ehird> Shush, I just wanted an excuse to make up some nice words.
01:29:24 <pikhq> My name uses every phoneme.
01:29:33 <ehird> Iklïx is pronounced "ihcleech", I think.
01:30:09 <augur> pikhq: everyone phoneme of what language
01:30:21 <ehird> Huqiäa is, I think, "huckuiuah".
01:30:26 <ehird> But the "ck" is softer.
01:30:35 <ehird> Huqiäa is, I think, "huckuiooah".
01:30:45 <pikhq> augur: ALL OF THEME.
01:30:48 <ehird> augur: amirite about both of them?
01:30:53 <pikhq> Very hard to pronounce. :P
01:31:07 <augur> did you know that phonemes are purely abstract concepts?
01:31:13 <ehird> pikhq: Worcester is easy for those who have had worcester source :P
01:31:19 <augur> and its not possible to say that two languages have the same phoneme?
01:31:21 <pikhq> ehird: Not for USians.
01:31:54 <pikhq> ehird: It's commonly pronounced worchester sauce.
01:32:01 <ehird> well i used to do that yeah
01:32:02 <pikhq> Facepalms all around.
01:32:14 <augur> its not worchester or even worcester sauce
01:32:18 <Sgeo> Yes, Disk Usage Analyzer, /host is taking up 100% of the space in /host
01:32:20 <augur> its worcestershire sauce.
01:32:44 <augur> and its pronounced /wUstIS@r/ :|
01:32:59 <pikhq> And yes, I know that.
01:33:10 <ehird> pikhq: http://filebin.ca/equugx/pickheadquarters.ogg Easy to pronounce. :P
01:33:13 <ehird> Disk Usage Analyzer
01:33:37 <augur> [pixq] isnt hard to pronounce :o
01:34:02 <ehird> 01:29 ehird: Iklïx is pronounced "ihcleech", I think.
01:34:02 <ehird> 01:29 ehird: ch as in Bach.
01:34:03 <ehird> 01:30 ehird: Huqiäa is, I think, "huckuiooah".
01:34:05 <ehird> 01:30 ehird: But the "ck" is softer.
01:34:10 <pikhq> Peek-eich-queue. Pronounced similarly to "Pikachu".
01:34:14 <pikhq> ... I was 8 at the time.
01:34:18 <augur> i dont know what that means, ehird
01:34:25 <ehird> augur: don't know what means
01:34:43 <augur> "ihcleech" and so forth.
01:34:58 <ehird> i'll try to record
01:36:10 <ehird> augur: if you cross-reference this with my hooked-on-phonics-esque descriptions, you should be able to get an idea of what I mean:
01:36:13 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/kycrxx/dsfdf.ogg
01:36:34 <ehird> just wondering how the hell you pronounce Phil Iklïx Huqiäa :D
01:39:14 <augur> that sounded a lot like [Iqlix xujuV] [ɪqlix xujuʌ]
01:39:33 <ehird> i don't even know what that means, i'm just trying to figure out how you pronounce Iklïx Huqiäa
01:39:45 <ehird> where x is Bach-ch and ¨ is umlaut
01:40:06 <augur> x is indeed german ch digraph
01:40:07 <oklopol> augur: why isn't it just a k?
01:40:20 <augur> but umlaut by itself is kind of senseless
01:40:25 <augur> oklopol: it just sounded like q, thats all.
01:40:40 <ehird> augur: well ï is ee, I think, and I think ä is oo
01:40:42 <augur> q is uvular, k is velar.
01:40:51 <ehird> just pronounce Phil Iklïx Huqiäa!
01:41:04 <augur> i dont know how to pronounce it because i dont know what orthography!
01:41:15 <ehird> augur: whatever feels right!
01:41:24 <ehird> mostly english i guess
01:41:33 <ehird> with the exception of the umlauted letters and the x
01:42:05 <oklopol> i'm sure you're interested in my professional opinion
01:42:23 <ehird> oklopol: you should become a professional professional
01:42:33 <ehird> your only purpose is to mention you're a professional and thus dispense professional advice/opinions/etc
01:42:44 <augur> today im going to be writing the part of my Grammar tutorials thats on Categorial Grammar
01:43:01 <oklopol> if it's not 2, then you haven't kept me updated
01:43:03 <augur> which is probably the kind thats most akin to lambda calculus youll get
01:43:10 <augur> its part 9 i think :P
01:43:12 <oklopol> then again i've been offline, so i'll forgive you
01:43:22 <oklopol> right, link when you have the times
01:43:28 <augur> wellnowwhat.net/blog
01:43:55 <augur> slereah: please dont.
01:43:59 <augur> oklopol: even better :D
01:44:16 <augur> hm. if pikhq is pikhq, maybe i could be pikplz :o
01:44:22 <ehird> augur: pronounce you bitch :|
01:44:31 <oklopol> i should probably go to sleep.
01:44:40 <augur> dirty boys are sexy boys
01:44:43 <GregorR> "pikplz" is pronounced akin to "pickles"
01:45:25 <GregorR> oklopol: You should be? :P
01:45:31 <oklopol> seriously, i've always thought of myself as a rather asexual being.
01:45:53 <GregorR> <oklopol> except for all that porno!
01:46:16 <oklopol> but thanks for reminding me
01:46:22 <oklopol> have to put my dl's back on
01:47:22 <oklopol> well asexual was irony for pansexual
01:47:49 <ehird> pikhq: "Bisexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by attraction to both the same gender and the opposite gender. Unlike pansexuality, it does not specifically include people who fall outside the gender binary. "
01:47:53 <augur> brb building my blackboard
01:47:58 <ehird> nobody means bisexual to mean "ONLY male or ONLY female"
01:48:47 <oklopol> you can't like both genders, but consider anything between sick and wrong?
01:48:47 <GregorR> "bisexual" is "pansexual", but a term people actually know.
01:49:05 <oklopol> i thought pansexual was like, you can have sex with a potato
01:49:20 <GregorR> oklopol: Anybody CAN have sex with a potato.
01:49:22 <ehird> No, sex with a pan.
01:49:23 <pikhq> oklopol: That would be phytophilia.
01:49:30 <ehird> Anyway, I'm going to become an "actual" bisexual to piss off people who say "pansexual".
01:49:36 <GregorR> oklopol: But no, the phrase for that is "Idaho native"
01:49:36 <ehird> If you're the most manly man ever, <3.
01:49:41 <ehird> 're the most girl girl ever, <3.
01:49:46 <ehird> If you're anything in-between —
01:49:48 <ehird> that means all of you —
01:49:53 <ehird> I hate you with the passion of a thousand fiery suns.
01:49:57 * pikhq gives ehird a transgender surgery
01:50:08 <oklopol> potato was just an example, in case you didn't realize that,
01:50:12 <ehird> Sexuality isn't linked to gender.
01:50:14 <GregorR> pikhq: Note: Most people are not sexually attracted to themselves :P
01:50:34 <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that.
01:50:46 <GregorR> `addquote <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that.
01:50:47 <HackEgo> 48|<oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that.
01:50:50 <pikhq> GregorR: That's autophilia.
01:51:06 <oklopol> isn't that about liking yourself
01:51:11 <ehird> Autophilia is liking—
01:51:23 <GregorR> Metrosexuality is sex with buses.
01:51:23 <ehird> http://sexwithcars.org/ is an actual forum with real people who think that.
01:51:38 <oklopol> pikhq: out of a plank != out of yourself
01:51:41 <ehird> Oh, and the ever famous: http://blackroses.textfiles.com/sex/sex-cars.faq
01:51:48 <ehird> Dekhy Dragon's Guide to Sex with Cars (for males)!
01:51:59 <oklopol> getting an erection out of looking into the mirror is physically *much* easier
01:52:04 <ehird> (Includes a section on how to have two people fucking the car at the same time.)
01:52:05 <HackEgo> www.dolphinsex.org/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar \ 2. [16]No Loitering: Dolphin Sex Lives
01:52:10 <oklopol> not that either is what i'd normally enjoy on a sunday evening.
01:52:13 <ehird> Just go around asking people whether they fuck cars!
01:52:14 <GregorR> Oh, it's back up at its original domain? :P
01:52:35 <ehird> My google history: sexwithcars, dekhyr's guide to fucking cars, sex with dolphins
01:52:38 <ehird> The FBI looooooves me.
01:52:42 <oklopol> there was this doc about a guy who fucked cars
01:53:01 <ehird> http://www.geocities.com/karnautrahl/ ← Sex With Cars 2: Electric Boogaloo; from the guy who brought you the forum sexwithcars.org.
01:53:08 <ehird> Best part: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carlover/1873405308/
01:53:12 <ehird> A picture of a dragon fucking a car.
01:53:20 <ehird> I mean why not, right
01:53:27 <pikhq> Okay, so I'm going to have to listen to Five Iron Frenzy 2: Electric Boogaloo after this.
01:53:37 <pikhq> (note: not actually their second album)
01:53:38 <ehird> (I just keep all these links around for when I wanna gross people out.)
01:53:57 <Slereah> ehird : The original picture is better
01:53:59 <pikhq> (also-note: yes, that is the album's name)
01:54:42 <Slereah> I think it's from that series of pictures that furryguy did
01:54:53 <ehird> The engine was running still and I could feel the vibrations running through as if she was panting in heat. In heat for me Her rear end was slightly lower than normal-her wheels had sunk up to the hubcaps. Now I did not need to stand on tip toe to screw her tailpipe- she wanted me that much that she had lowered it down for me. I had to bend my knees slightly to reach though. First I knelt down and gently smelt her pipes while the engine was running-she s
01:54:55 <ehird> melled hot-I had to be carefull here though I enjoyed the smell and taste of her engine as well but I could not sit here forever enjoying her horny musk. The bodywork was giving off a delicous aroma of hot, wet and muddy metal and rubber. I was intoxicated by her miasma. I could not wait much longer- I had to have her. The new tailpipes were specially shaped so that I could screw her as hard and as fast as I wanted to without worrying about cuts and abra
01:55:00 <ehird> sions. They were smooth inside and as specified were just slightly small. I lubricated myself on with a little saliva that was all. I inserted the head of my penis into the entry to her tailpipe-I could feel the warm exhaust gases pushing against my cock. She had four to choose from so there was no real danger of excessive pressure. I kissed her slowly as I pushed into her against some resistance.
01:55:05 <ehird> — http://www.geocities.com/karnautrahl/Katie.html
01:55:07 <ehird> There's really no word.
01:55:33 <Slereah> Ooooh, the car is all dirty
01:55:42 <ehird> The forums were fucking crazy when they were public; those guys seem to actually think that the car wants sex and "consents" to it.
01:56:01 <ehird> One of Ford's main design goals for the Model T was fuckability and horniness!
01:56:04 <ehird> What do you think the horn's for?
01:56:46 <GregorR> I AM SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO HUMANS.
01:56:48 <ehird> [[Technically speaking it's not a man who has sex with cars. As I'm one such I know my subject. An autophile is in love with him or herself sexually. So I'm stuffed for a good word to use (apart from the often heard, insane, crazy, etc). The only alternative I've heard is automobiliphilia. Quite a mouthful, more than the gearknob of a Jaguar XJ8 so probably won't be popular.]]
01:57:00 <ehird> — Karnautrahl, the author of that Katie thing.
01:57:06 <pikhq> GregorR: HOMOPHILE!
01:57:14 <ehird> or is he implying he fellates gearknobs?
01:57:58 <oklopol> if you think it's a human, it's not that weird
01:58:15 <GregorR> oklopol: If you think it's a human, that's weird :P
01:58:21 <oklopol> if you think it's a car, then yes, might be kinda hard to like it
01:58:33 <ehird> The gearsticks are permanently "hard". ;-)
01:58:44 <pikhq> Now, are there any compuphiles?
01:59:06 <GregorR> `google sex with computers
01:59:08 <HackEgo> What Sex Are Computers? A language instructor was explaining to her class that in French, nouns unlike their English counterparts, are grammatically ... \ jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9791.htm - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
01:59:13 <ehird> http://videogum.com/archives/trailer/control-alt-delete-the_022701.html
01:59:17 <ehird> Control Alt Delete, a "technosexual comedy" about a programmer so stressed out about fixing the Y2K bug that he starts having sex with computers, premiered at the Toronto Film Festival last week and got a distributor. While the "computer rape accusation" scene is humorous, I'm not sure this is going to be the next Office Space:
01:59:18 <oklopol> pikhq: dude had a relationship with a dude via computer, after relationship ended, he just continued with his laptop
01:59:40 <oklopol> i used to watch a lot of these
01:59:53 * ehird watches the trailer
02:00:04 <pikhq> WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE. COULD WE AT LEAST AGREE ON WHAT SPECIES TO HAVE SEX WITH.
02:00:35 <GregorR> pikhq: First you have to get everybody to agree with having sex with /living things/. Or at leas organic things?
02:00:40 <ehird> haha is he actually going to fuck the computer
02:00:47 <pikhq> GregorR: Good point.
02:01:20 <oklopol> balloons aren't alive, and they are very popular
02:01:21 <ehird> Guys, click my link
02:01:26 <ehird> He fucks computers. Like, really.
02:01:32 <oklopol> as are shoes, but that's about humans mostly.
02:01:35 <GregorR> ehird: THIS IS WHY I AM NOT CLICKING YOUR LINK
02:01:47 <ehird> GregorR: It's just a trailer, it's SFW (it only has human porn) :-P
02:02:05 <ehird> he fucked a datacenter
02:02:08 <ehird> that's some hardcore shit
02:02:23 <ehird> ...then the world explodes
02:02:47 <ehird> Well, now I'm traumatised for life.
02:05:13 <oklopol> computers are complex things, shouldn't be hard to get off to them
02:05:25 <ehird> sex with fans (the spinning kind)
02:05:28 <ehird> note: this only works once
02:05:39 <oklopol> also easy to develop accidentally, as many masturbate in front of them day after day anyway
02:05:56 <ehird> steve jobs prolly tells his designers to make macs look sexual
02:06:02 <oklopol> but seriously i think i'm a bit too tired
02:06:13 <oklopol> well macs have very female forms
02:06:56 <ehird> http://images.apple.com/macpro/images/overview_hero1_20090309.png
02:07:02 <ehird> the holes are sized specifically to fit Jobs' penis
02:07:31 <ehird> Sometimes he masturbates it, instead: http://images.apple.com/macpro/images/overview_hero2_20090303.png
02:08:19 <Slereah> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/3/3d/Dragonsandcars01_top.jpg
02:08:54 <oklopol> that's a very animal-looking penis
02:09:02 <oklopol> i would've expected a dragon to have a human penis
02:09:52 <oklopol> not an actual dragon of course
02:10:06 <oklopol> those naturally have animal penises
02:10:56 <oklopol> food is probably a good substitute for sleep ->
02:12:43 <pikhq> No. Only caffeine.
02:13:37 <oklopol> caffeine seems to make me sleepy at first, the only thing it does nowadays is make it harder to actually fall asleep
02:13:50 <oklopol> should it make you sleepy at first?
02:14:10 <oklopol> i mean often after i drink a few cups, i'm ready for a nap.
02:16:03 <MizardX> I get that too. As if the body is trying to over-compensate before the caffeine starts to have it's full effect.
02:16:45 <oklopol> maybe. or just as maybe that makes no sense physiologically.
02:18:20 <ehird> i've always thought that pure liquid coffee would be awesome
02:18:35 <MizardX> I just remembered a quote: "Sleep is not a good substitute for Caffeine"
02:18:59 <ehird> to emulate it at drinkable temperatures, just grind the beans to shit, add the minimum water possible and use a heavy-duty mix/stir thingy every single speck of bean
02:19:09 <ehird> voila! actual coffee
02:19:50 <ehird> oklopol: but that is too hot to drink without burning yourself to shit
02:19:58 <ehird> i mean of course melting is one path to it, but you have to put a lil water in there after
02:20:19 <ehird> the important thing is to avoid actual solid specks of bean
02:20:22 <oklopol> maybe it's served in small pressure
02:20:33 <ehird> you want it to be an actual liquid drink
02:20:52 <ehird> just made of as much coffee as possible, with the only other ingredient being a tiny amount of (filtered) water
02:21:14 <MizardX> Press the beans so hard they emit their juices.
02:21:28 <ehird> hmm isn't the shell kinda part of it too?
02:22:19 <ehird> MizardX: also wouldn't 100% bean juice be kind of dangerous?
02:22:42 <ehird> if not, then squirt all the juices out, then absolutely pulverize the shells into as fine a grain as possible; get tiny bit of water, mix in, etc
02:22:47 <ehird> then pour into the juice
02:22:54 <ehird> voila! as pure as coffee as possible
02:24:34 <Slereah> ehird is a coffee supremacist
02:25:27 <augur> my blackboard is almost complete!
02:25:27 <ehird> anyone know if it'd be safe? anyone know if the shells are useful?
02:25:33 <augur> also, pure liquid coffee might be pretty good
02:25:37 <ehird> augur: are we talking a regular blackboard thing
02:25:39 <augur> coffee beans are pretty tasty
02:25:47 <augur> ehird: im building an a-frame blackboard
02:25:57 <ehird> augur: so it's safe then
02:26:09 <ehird> too much caffeine?
02:26:20 <augur> depends on how much you drank
02:26:50 <augur> plus, all the extra material from the coffee bean buffers the caffeine
02:26:51 <ehird> so anyway, squirt the juices out (hurr hurr penis), grind the shells to as fine a grain as possible, mix in as small an amount at a time as possible into as little filtered water as possible, using a good mixer/stirrer at each step
02:27:04 <ehird> pour the water/shell mix into the juice
02:27:21 <ehird> run your mixer/stirrer on it for a bit
02:27:23 <ehird> heating it up is left as an exercise to the reader
02:27:27 <augur> ehird, is this your plan for liquid coffee bean?
02:27:44 <ehird> augur: just as pure as coffee as possible while still having all the flavor
02:27:58 <augur> espresso is pretty close, you know.
02:28:08 <ehird> not nearly close enough
02:28:18 <augur> ive eaten coffee beans
02:28:33 <oklopol> ehird: it's still a deadly drink
02:28:35 <ehird> to compensate for not having awesome mixing powers
02:28:39 <augur> heres an alternative
02:28:42 <ehird> oklopol: um espresso isn't very deadly
02:28:54 <augur> i make coffee that often leaves lots of sediment in my cup
02:29:09 <augur> ill scoop the sediment out, pack it all together for you, and ship it off!
02:29:15 <ehird> point is, espresso has too much wate
02:29:22 <augur> and by sediment i mean like silt-y fine stuff
02:29:34 <ehird> with our way, you just have enough water to hold the extremely fine ground bits of bean
02:29:37 <augur> anyway, you could probably do it, ehird, but itd taste like espresso
02:29:37 <ehird> with a lot of mixing
02:29:39 <ehird> which is not a lot
02:29:46 <ehird> augur: no, the silt stuff will be kinda gloopy or whatever
02:29:52 <augur> so will your muck!
02:29:54 <pikhq> ehird: Why not just eat straight coffee beans?
02:29:54 <ehird> i want something that's a bona-fide liquid drink
02:29:59 <ehird> pikhq: it's not hot liquid
02:30:08 <ehird> augur: it's not muck, and it involves liqui
02:30:11 <ehird> just a small amount
02:30:16 <augur> ground up coffee bean
02:30:17 <ehird> also, that mixer/stirrer has to be excellent
02:30:23 <ehird> i mean, run it really fast and long
02:30:34 <ehird> augur: okay, i didn't state my process properly
02:30:36 <augur> very quickly, infact.
02:30:39 <ehird> lemme write a paste-sized version
02:30:54 <augur> what you, COULD do is like
02:31:02 <augur> make lots of really strong coffee
02:31:06 <augur> extract all the flavor you can
02:31:14 <augur> then distill it until heres hardly any water
02:31:24 <augur> but not add any powderized bean
02:31:40 <augur> thats a better option. the bean is mostly starch and fiber anyway.
02:32:51 <pikhq> Say, I was wondering: would anyone happen to know of where I may find a copy of Donald Knuth's "Things a Computer Scientist Rarely Talks About" lecture series? It was hosted on Dr. Dobb's site, but is no longer...
02:33:28 <ehird> augur: so the bean doesn't really have any flavor then?
02:33:36 <ehird> otoh it actually improves mine
02:33:45 <ehird> because it lets you make it less gloopy with a little bit of water
02:33:46 <pikhq> And yes, I am t3h googling.
02:33:49 <ehird> while still having coffee shit in it
02:33:55 <ehird> augur: http://pastie.org/557205.txt?key=1wmaucsdzjdko9jjm34dua full process
02:35:34 <pikhq> It would appear to have gone to the bit bucket.
02:35:51 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.amazon.com/Things-Computer-Scientist-Language-Information/dp/157586326X
02:36:03 <ehird> isn't it just his christian blab
02:36:12 <pikhq> ehird: Dr. Dobbs once upon a time had the video lectures.
02:36:16 <ehird> "3:16: Bible Texts Illuminated (1990), in which he examined the Bible by analyzing the third chapter and 16th verse of each book. In each lecture, Knuth explores various aspects of that project, such as the ways that the random selection of "3:16" functions as a method for understanding the overall thematic threads of biblical meaning and exposes the intersections of faith and computer science."
02:36:26 <ehird> numerology + christianity = hyuk hyuk hyuk
02:36:37 <ehird> pikhq: ah — [[In addition, since this book is simply a transcription of Knuth's lectures, it is recommended only for large academic libraries.]]
02:36:58 <pikhq> ehird: I'm intrigued is all.
02:37:08 <pikhq> And only the dead-tree is still around.
02:42:36 <pikhq> Y'know, I am increasingly convinced that new versions of Perl are designed by hitting a keyboard and trying to make the resulting line noise parse.
02:46:56 <ehird> Wow, it took you ages to arrive at a tedious, decades-old joke.
02:47:10 <ehird> Perl 5.10, in case you didn't realise, modernised the language and added a lot of clean features.
02:47:23 <pikhq> You've not seen Perl 6 much.
02:47:34 <ehird> pikhq: ever looked at the obfuscated c contest?
02:47:40 <ehird> "I can do that, too!"
02:47:54 <ehird> i agree that perl 6 sucks though
02:47:57 <pikhq> (... any more. :P)
02:47:58 <ehird> kitchen sinkus maximus
02:48:01 <ehird> pikhq: Haskell, too.
02:48:08 <ehird> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Obfuscation
02:48:57 <pikhq> ehird: ... That is scary.
02:49:18 <ehird> I don't (???????) what you (??????).
02:52:27 * Sgeo finishes watching Interstella 5555
02:54:16 <augur> i was busy making coffee :p
02:54:45 <Sgeo> I liked it, but it was difficult to follow at first
02:55:09 <ehird> augur: so, your comments.
02:55:27 <augur> my comments are you should mix it again after heating incase of settling.
02:55:31 <augur> the beans are worthless
02:56:20 <augur> essentially what you want to do, ehird, is make instant coffee thats really sludgey, since thats the purest kind of coffee you can get, except instant coffee itself is fucking disgusting, so you'd have to distill the coffee yourself
02:56:46 <ehird> augur: no, no, the bean shell is there for a reason
02:57:02 <ehird> augur: we have to add some water, otherwise we just have the plain juice, which will be too thick
02:57:09 <ehird> just adding water would be too watery
02:57:11 <augur> oklopol: dessicated coffee that you just need to add water to to get coffee
02:57:12 <ehird> and not pure coffee enough
02:57:17 <augur> ehird: plain juice?
02:57:21 <ehird> augur: so we add the beans in, to make the water more coffey-y
02:57:29 <augur> i know but what is this "juice"
02:57:41 <ehird> it specifically says what it is
02:57:59 <oklopol> hmm, probably because most instant coffees aren't just coffee
02:58:07 <augur> you squeeze the "juice" out of the beans
02:58:09 <oklopol> they're tasty sugary vanilla coffee
02:58:16 <augur> the juice is "what you squeezed out of the beens"
02:58:16 <ehird> augur: so it's fuzzy language
02:58:20 <augur> but what is that juice
02:58:23 <augur> i dont know what this is
02:58:26 <ehird> [[02:21 MizardX: Press the beans so hard they emit their juices.]] just sparked my interest :)
02:58:32 <augur> roasted beans have no "juice"
02:58:37 <ehird> augur: just pummel the beans until they're flat shells
02:59:04 <augur> ehird theres no real point to that
02:59:12 <ehird> yes there is, it's my method
03:01:17 <augur> you a) cant extract "juice" out of dry beans, because there is no juice in beans
03:01:28 <ehird> it's vague because i'm lazy
03:01:30 <augur> then what the hell did you say you could for!
03:01:31 <ehird> i am a lazy perosn
03:01:35 <augur> what you really should do
03:01:43 <augur> is grind your beens up REALLY finely
03:01:56 <augur> maybe not TOO finely but pretty finely
03:02:08 <ehird> that's the shell portion
03:02:15 <augur> and make espresso, which will extract a lot of the flavor
03:02:31 <ehird> it has way too much wate
03:02:32 <augur> then you boil off the water until you've gotten very little left
03:02:37 <ehird> let's assume we're in ethopia
03:02:45 <ehird> we have like less than one glass of water
03:02:45 <augur> and you have just essentially pure coffee
03:03:04 <augur> ehird, you CANT grind up the beans to a powder and add water to that
03:03:31 <ehird> if i had a teleporter i'd prove it to you right now
03:03:33 <augur> the beans have too much non-coffee stuff in them, the powder will just form a sediment and wont add flavor
03:04:03 <augur> like i said, you want to make strong coffee and then concentrate that because then you have JUST the stuff that makes coffee coffee
03:06:57 <augur> especially because once you've added water to the sediment that you're making, the sediment itself will mostly not even HAVE any flavor to it
03:07:09 <ehird> augur: it doesn't need to add flavor
03:07:15 <ehird> it just needs to make it less gloopy
03:07:22 <ehird> i just add in the shells to make it less watery
03:07:38 <ehird> it's more coffeey therefore it wins
03:07:41 <augur> but youd get the same thing by distilling off the water from pure coffee
03:07:51 <ehird> report back with pictures.
03:07:56 <augur> having the sediment detracts from the pure coffee, actually
03:08:04 <augur> because its volume but no coffee flavor
03:08:34 <ehird> augur: but that's because just pure coffee will be too gloopy
03:08:37 <ehird> water would do the same
03:08:39 <augur> what we really might want to do is figure out how to extract the essential oils of coffee
03:08:45 <ehird> but the shells are just... coffee-feelin
03:08:49 <ehird> doing that wouldn't really be coffee
03:08:56 <ehird> you might as well synthesize caffeine + flavours
03:09:04 <augur> the essential oils are what makes coffee coffee
03:09:07 <augur> instead of just hot water!
03:09:43 <augur> we'd have to have some sort of fractional distillation process i guess. or we could try to let the oils separate off
03:09:56 <augur> i often have coffee that has clear films of coffee oils on the surface
03:09:58 <ehird> it's funny, i don't even like coffee all that much
03:10:04 <augur> i imagine that letting it sit would let it separate even more
03:10:07 <oklopol> this dude used to put caffeine pills in his coffee
03:10:08 <ehird> but it interests me to play around with them
03:10:18 <ehird> we should start a coffee lab
03:10:25 <ehird> where we have a bunch of expensive heavy-duty equipment
03:10:29 <ehird> and just make coffee with it
03:10:33 <augur> ehird have you seen that coffee making thingy
03:10:36 <ehird> like, we can have it as a café
03:10:39 <augur> that looks like a piece of lab equipment?
03:10:40 <ehird> with a really fucking huge behind-store
03:10:45 <ehird> augur: that $11,000 thing?
03:10:52 <ehird> starbucks made it, or at least own it now
03:11:16 <ehird> augur: http://www.slate.com/id/2185655/
03:11:28 <ehird> http://www.starbucks.com/clover/
03:11:40 <augur> thats just a fancy espresso machine
03:11:41 <ehird> augur: anyway I'm thinking more like really big stuff
03:11:48 <ehird> like, the size of a big desk
03:11:57 <ehird> totally filled with machinery
03:12:01 <ehird> and that's just one phase!
03:12:34 <ehird> augur: i wonder if we could get a government grant to find out a way to make coffee by pummeling it with lasers
03:12:51 <ehird> simultaneously evaporate the plate between them and shoot tons of high-powered lasers at it
03:12:55 <augur> it depends on whether or not torchwood would be involved
03:13:01 <augur> im sure ianto might have a way :o
03:13:40 <ehird> i wonder if you can buy a machine where it lifts up an object
03:13:48 <ehird> and has two really heavy metal plates at either side
03:13:48 <augur> its called a forklift.
03:13:53 <ehird> it slams them together at the object
03:13:55 <ehird> at really high speed
03:13:58 <ehird> with tons of force
03:14:04 <ehird> just call it the DECIMATOR
03:14:15 <augur> the thing i was thinking about isnt 11k
03:14:25 * Sgeo wishes PortableApps worked as-is on Linux
03:14:27 <augur> http://coffeegeek.com/guides/siphoncoffee
03:14:43 <Sgeo> So I could use the apps no matter the OS (well, not OS X >.>)
03:15:02 <Sgeo> But I only use Linux and Windows
03:15:06 <ehird> augur: anyway there's clearly only one good way to make true pure coffee
03:15:12 <ehird> get your coffee beans
03:15:14 <ehird> heat them until they melt
03:15:21 <ehird> mix them madly to soften them
03:15:32 <ehird> grow your coffee beans
03:15:36 <ehird> (put them next to your weed)
03:15:39 <ehird> heat them until they melt
03:15:40 <augur> some coffee geeks grow their own beans
03:15:42 <augur> and roast them too
03:15:43 <ehird> (no, not the weed, the coffee)
03:15:51 <ehird> augur: let's skip roasting
03:15:55 <ehird> let's go straight to melting
03:15:58 <augur> nah you have to roast them
03:16:03 <augur> otherwise it doesnt taste like coffee
03:16:05 <ehird> heat them until they melt
03:16:15 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JcOndpcGU
03:16:16 <ehird> mix them wildly to get it thinner
03:16:28 <ehird> i wonder what kinda temperature you need to melt coffee beans
03:16:41 <augur> cant be done, actually.
03:17:06 <augur> the heat would cause various chemical processes to happen
03:17:14 <augur> that would either 1) result in burning, if exposed to air
03:17:23 <ehird> don't expose it to air.
03:17:25 <augur> or 2) result in carbonization if kept out of air
03:17:35 <ehird> decarbonize it. :P
03:18:13 <augur> that this siphon device
03:18:17 <augur> could be easilly made
03:18:41 <augur> and isnt worth 20k.
03:19:15 <ehird> augur: why can't we decarbonify it :P
03:19:26 <augur> because that would just make coffee beans again.
03:19:38 <augur> or coffee bean powder.
03:19:58 <augur> also, itd be impossible, but ignoring that.
03:20:08 <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D
03:20:22 <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
03:20:45 <augur> which also doesnt melt.
03:21:06 <ehird> augur: so there's no way to have actual liquid coffee beans? :(
03:21:19 <augur> ehird: not without getting rid of the starch and fiber in the bean.
03:21:31 <ehird> would that be an issue
03:21:41 <augur> no, it would just involve making coffee from it.
03:22:12 <GregorR> `addquote <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
03:22:13 <HackEgo> 49|<augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
03:22:24 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:22:29 <GregorR> However, "<augur> which also doesnt melt."
03:22:39 <augur> when you make coffee, all you're using is using water to make the non-starch non-fiber stuff move out of the starch and fiber
03:22:47 <augur> gregorr: no. not everything.
03:22:56 <ehird> <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
03:23:01 <ehird> `addquote <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
03:23:02 <HackEgo> 49|<ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
03:23:27 <GregorR> augur: You're telling me there are materials that are a solid at 12 quadrillion degrees :P
03:23:53 <ehird> GregorR: wouldn't they be gas or plasma
03:23:54 <augur> im telling you there are materials that go straight from solid to gas or plasma at 12 quadrillion degrees.
03:24:22 <GregorR> ehird: In plasma form, it wouldn't be coffee, it would just be protons, electrons and neutrons floating about.
03:24:29 <augur> if it were plasma, the nuclei would be free from the electrons
03:24:34 <augur> there wouldnt be molecules
03:24:38 <augur> gass coffee, maybe.
03:24:50 <augur> depends on whether or not the oils and such can vaporize.
03:24:52 <ehird> GregorR: haha that made me laugh
03:24:57 <ehird> i almost spit out my lemonade :\
03:25:18 <augur> given the nature of oils in general, coffee probably cant be vaporized without burning
03:25:22 * Sgeo solves a ProjectEuler problem with one line of Python
03:25:29 <augur> or without significant chemical changes that make it not coffee
03:25:31 <GregorR> augur: So take it to an oxygen-free environment, yeesh
03:25:33 <ehird> augur: maybe burnt coffee tastes delicious
03:25:36 <ehird> have you considered that huh
03:25:38 <augur> gregorr: see above.
03:25:39 <ehird> GregorR: it carbonizes
03:25:42 <ehird> we've established that
03:25:44 <ehird> you QUOTED that :P
03:25:51 <augur> the coffee BEAN carbonizes
03:25:54 <augur> the oils might not
03:26:01 <augur> there also might be other chemicals that are relevant
03:26:11 <ehird> augur: anyway, maybe burnt coffee beans are wonderful.
03:26:17 <ehird> in which case let's melt it with air.
03:26:21 <GregorR> If I knew your middle name, I would go: <ehird's mom> Elliott <Middle name> Hird!!!
03:26:26 <GregorR> Because I'm sure that's something she's said.
03:26:30 <ehird> GregorR: My middle name is
03:26:32 <ehird> GregorR: My middle name is
03:26:34 <ehird> Segmentation fault
03:26:35 <augur> ehird: Starbucks is nicknamed Charbucks by coffee snobs
03:26:46 <GregorR> Hahahah, people who don't have middle names are losers.
03:27:00 <ehird> (I actually corrected that to have a space at the end :-) )
03:27:11 <ehird> augur: BUT, there are people who can drink Starbucks and enjoy it
03:27:29 <augur> ehird: there are people who eat feces and enjoy it.
03:27:33 <ehird> so burnt coffee beans can't be _undrinkably_ bad; perhaps with my magical MELTED COFFEE it could be acceptable
03:27:41 <ehird> it's not like eating charcoal, at least
03:27:55 <augur> i once had some Lindt 99% pure chocolate
03:28:01 <augur> it tasted and felt like eating charcoal powder.
03:28:23 <augur> it was silty, and the silt would collect between your cheek and your gums
03:28:28 <augur> horribly bitter stuff
03:28:33 <ehird> i've eaten 95% chocolate, or was it 98%
03:28:40 <ehird> whatever, it was nice
03:28:42 <augur> after eating the 99% pure chocolate
03:28:54 <augur> drinking tonic water was completely bearably
03:29:03 <augur> because i couldnt taste the tonic over the chocolate
03:29:08 <GregorR> I have had 99%, 95%, 90%, 85%, 80%, 75%, 65%, and various lower than that. I think 80% is about the point where above that it gets worse, not better. Maybe 85%.
03:29:20 <GregorR> Oh, and I think 72% somewhere too.
03:29:25 <augur> but the 99% stuff is like
03:29:40 <augur> its charcoal with a little bit of cocoa butter.
03:29:41 <ehird> charcoal smells lovely
03:29:54 <augur> google celebrates comics today
03:31:02 <ehird> i want liquid coffee beans
03:31:09 <ehird> augur: even if we did get them... how on earth do you keep it liquid :D
03:31:22 <augur> very high temperatures that would make them undrinkable.
03:31:24 <ehird> ("how do you keep a circle square, circle?")
03:31:35 <ehird> i was hoping for like "MODIFYING THE ATOMIC STRUCTURE"
03:31:35 <augur> ehird, this is why you should just try distilling coffee
03:31:44 <ehird> i only like absolute solutions
03:31:45 <augur> yes, and so is the coffee.
03:31:59 <augur> the bean is nothing but a wooden carrier for coffee goodness
03:32:13 <augur> a wooden football soaked in yummy coffee.
03:32:19 <ehird> augur: extract all the goodness
03:32:30 <augur> ehird: yes, that extraction coffee is called making coffee.
03:32:39 <ehird> but the whole point is no water
03:32:46 <augur> yes, thats why you distill it
03:33:06 <augur> you might need a fractional still to make sure you remove just the water tho
03:33:13 <augur> because there might be chemicals with lower boiling poins
03:33:19 <ehird> it's notable that i can't really drink strong coffee
03:33:44 <ehird> i love the smells and everything
03:33:48 <ehird> just not the taste
03:33:49 <augur> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf970009t
03:33:55 <augur> ehird, you'd love my coffee.
03:34:01 <augur> i have a magic recipe that goes like this
03:34:02 <ehird> i want coffee that's optimised for smell
03:34:10 <ehird> it invades your bloodstream via your nose.
03:34:31 <ehird> augur: it does like ?
03:34:35 <ehird> wow, that's amazing
03:34:58 <augur> coffee, cinnamon, vanilla -> french press. hot water -> french press. stir, steep, press, pour -> mostly fill cup. 3 tsp sugar -> cup. half and half -> cup.
03:35:16 <ehird> that sounds ridiculously sweet
03:35:33 <augur> cuban coffee is ridiculously sweet
03:35:37 <augur> cuban coffee is like
03:35:43 <augur> thats been concentrated
03:35:51 <ehird> that sounds ummm bitter, not sweet
03:36:07 <augur> so that a tazza of espresso
03:36:11 <augur> now fills maybe a thimble
03:36:21 <augur> then you mix that with like a tablespood of sugar
03:36:34 <augur> not a tablespoon, a tablespoo_D_
03:36:40 <augur> a whole tablespood.
03:36:46 <ehird> augur: ship me some of your coffee at 0K so that it stays perfect
03:36:55 <augur> that might damage it.
03:36:58 <ehird> also modify it so that when it stops being 0K, it instantly becomes the right temperature
03:37:00 <ehird> augur: pfft nonsense
03:37:06 <ehird> just transport it to a universe where everything is 0K
03:37:12 <augur> freezing can alter the chemical composition of the coffee.
03:37:24 <ehird> just place it in 0Kland
03:37:37 <augur> being at 0K might still alter the chemical composition
03:37:45 <augur> who knows what quantum superposition will do to the coffee!
03:38:18 <augur> all coffee is quantum coffee.
03:38:28 <augur> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf970009t
03:38:51 <ehird> all everything is quantum everything
03:39:14 <augur> ive had more insights into why the universe might be running on a giant supercomputer.
03:39:28 <ehird> stick to the coffee
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03:40:56 <augur> oh ho but i am ehird
03:41:00 <augur> because if we can contact the sysadmins of the universe
03:41:14 <augur> they might be beneficent enough to let us hack together some liquid coffee
03:41:28 <ehird> augur, you do know that belief in a simulated universe is equivalent to a belief in god?
03:41:53 <augur> except in this case, god wears t-shirts and has cheetoh stains on his shirt.
03:42:01 <ehird> goes against occam's razor, assumes things that are not us are like us and merely offloads the complexity
03:42:06 <ehird> (i.e., where did _they_ come from)
03:42:13 <ehird> augur: hmm well that is more appealing yes
03:42:24 <oklopol> augur: ive had more insights into why the universe might be running on a giant supercomputer. <<< you believe that too?
03:42:25 <augur> if the universe IS a giant simulation
03:42:33 <ehird> oklopol: congrats, you're religious
03:42:35 <augur> than /b/tards are the blessed 144 thousand
03:42:54 <augur> ehird, isnt that frightening? D:
03:42:58 <oklopol> believing this is a simulation
03:43:01 <ehird> augur: not really, because i don't believe it
03:43:02 <augur> slereah might be one of The Saved
03:43:21 <oklopol> it's an afterlife i can believe in
03:43:38 <augur> anyway, whether or not this is a simulation is all kind of moot until we discover otherwise. however, there might be certain things that could prove it.
03:43:47 <augur> not that i know what those are but
03:44:06 <ehird> i wish there were teleports
03:44:21 <ehird> so you could teleport me some coffee, i feel like some right now
03:45:10 <augur> in Cory Doctorow's true names, i think, there are some philosopher AIs
03:45:25 <augur> that have developed a way of calculating whether or not a reality was simulated
03:45:31 <ehird> he is an awful writer and an obnoxious person
03:45:32 <oklopol> ehird: it's more a way to justify my semisoliptist views.
03:45:34 <augur> based on various logical properties that must follow
03:45:37 <augur> oh hush, i love him. :P
03:45:39 <ehird> oklopol: *solipsist
03:45:45 <ehird> augur: we're not friends any more
03:46:07 <augur> there MIGHT be certain aspects of reality that necessarily entail true realness
03:46:15 <augur> while simulations might not be able to have those aspects
03:46:40 <augur> anyway, wanna hear my compelling reasons for believe the universe is a simulation? XD
03:47:01 <oklopol> (after that i can tell you why the clock has to have a maker)
03:47:06 <augur> ok, so i told you the other day about the whole time ordering relativity thing, right?
03:47:18 <ehird> oh he's doing crap physics again
03:47:30 <augur> ok ill do it in private then :|
04:14:09 <oklopol> well clearly this is a closed system
04:14:44 <oklopol> i do hear voices sometimes, but that's just my head
04:15:19 <augur> i wish i heard voices. that'd be cool. not crazy voices tho
04:15:23 <augur> voices that are like
04:15:31 <augur> "mm get the panini, it looks good"
04:15:46 <GregorR> I hear ... my voice in my head >_>
04:16:02 <augur> all of the sudden i just got kind of weird feeling in my head D:
04:16:06 <augur> like my focus is kind of off
04:16:19 <augur> THE SYSADMINS FROM THE METAVERSE ARE MESSING WITH ME D:
04:16:23 <oklopol> i get these sort of panic attacks where lots of people are whispering fast and loud in my head, i call it my programming mode
04:16:54 <oklopol> it's very rare, but i love it
04:17:03 <GregorR> oklopol: ... I would consider consulting a therapist about that ...
04:17:21 <augur> gregorr: therapists only treat you if its interfering with your life.
04:17:30 <oklopol> my life is pretty much perfect
04:17:36 <augur> the definition of a psychiatric illness /requires/ that it interferes with your life.
04:17:42 <GregorR> oklopol: My life is perfecter! :P
04:17:45 <oklopol> except for the fact i'm incredibly lazy when i'm not being insanely productive
04:17:48 <augur> if it doesnt interfere, psychiatrists dont care.
04:18:04 <oklopol> have you been unhappy during the last say 3 years?
04:18:05 <augur> perhaps its that you're not production when you're incredibly lazy!
04:18:11 <oklopol> i've been maybe 5 times or so
04:18:28 <pikhq> I can has psychiatric illnes.
04:18:29 <oklopol> usually due to being tired.
04:18:35 <GregorR> I'm emotionally neutral at nearly all times ...
04:18:57 <augur> pikhq: more like grammar problems.
04:19:00 <GregorR> I'm trying to think of a situation where I've been UNhappy recently ...
04:19:12 <pikhq> I also use English oddly at times, but that has little to do with psychiatric illnes.
04:19:22 <pikhq> Just psychiatric oddness.
04:20:14 <oklopol> GregorR: well, i can't remember an exact time either
04:20:36 <oklopol> but yeah maybe emotionally neutral would be the most optimal way to live, i tend to be high on life 24/7
04:20:53 <GregorR> I'm not a particularly emotional person *shrugs*
04:20:55 <oklopol> like, you know, staring at trees in awe and shit
04:21:10 <GregorR> Closest I get is lost in music.
04:22:32 <oklopol> hmm. if you don't feel anything, how do you measure quality?
04:22:43 <oklopol> i mean i can beat you with any measure, i'm sure.
04:23:04 <GregorR> I didn't say I don't feel ANYTHING, I'm just not very emotional.
04:23:32 <oklopol> i'm content even when i'm unhappy.
04:23:34 <GregorR> How many free vacations to foreign countries have you been on? :P
04:23:41 <oklopol> because my life is perfect
04:23:47 <oklopol> "free"? err, none i guess.
04:24:05 <GregorR> If "free vacations to foreign countries" is a measure of life quality, I win on that measure :P
04:24:24 <oklopol> i don't like vacations, i prefer university atm
04:24:25 <GregorR> Well, in each occasion I have to present a paper or something thereabout.
04:24:50 <GregorR> And by "have to" I mean "get to", because I love public speaking.
04:25:00 <oklopol> but why would i want a free trip to a foreign country, when i could just read at home.
04:25:27 <GregorR> ... clearly our measurements schemes are incomparable :P
04:25:29 <oklopol> learning is about as good as sex, which i also have more than you
04:25:46 <oklopol> maybe so, let's just agree we're both perfect and get on with our lives
04:26:03 <GregorR> Although I wonder why you make such strong assumptions about my sex life :P
04:26:12 <GregorR> Unless of course you're a porn star on the side, and so can reasonably make them.
04:26:54 <GregorR> `addquote <oklopol> i'm not a porn star, no
04:26:55 <HackEgo> 50|<oklopol> i'm not a porn star, no
04:26:58 <oklopol> i rarely have sex more than once a day, tbh
04:27:00 <GregorR> That whole conversation was just to get that quote in the quote DB.
04:27:10 <GregorR> That done, I'm going to sleep.
04:27:42 * pikhq has emotions, in honor of Gregor, who has not
04:27:52 <GregorR> I'm not a fekking vulcan >_<
04:28:42 * GregorR carefully makes sure his hair covers his ears.
04:28:50 * GregorR reapplies his reddening makeup.
04:30:01 <oklopol> for a second i was tempted to say "...the vulcan erupted", but that simply made no sense
04:36:05 <coppro> yeah, vulcans have excellent emotion control
04:37:22 <Sgeo> Is it worth it to go to PyCon?
04:40:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: No. Needs more hallucinogens.
05:11:45 * Sgeo looks at Jaxer
05:11:56 <Sgeo> If it weren't for the first example, I'd say it looks quite cool
05:24:15 <Sgeo> It's all PHPy though. Mixing business logic with display
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06:23:58 <oklopol> what a great webcam recording program, it lets you upload videos to youtube and send emails, but there's no way to save a recording :D
06:31:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: can you play .wmv?
06:31:51 <oklopol> i don't know how to convert
06:33:10 <oklopol> recorded some piano for you, not really my top speed, but fast enough
06:36:29 <oklopol> trivial snippet for the right hand, http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/pianoriff.wmv, also i'm naked but it's totally sfw.
06:36:46 <oklopol> sound is really bad, i had to play it slowly in the beginning so you know what i'm doing
06:38:17 <oklopol> wonder if the shops are open ~>
06:40:28 <oklopol> would've recorded something longer and more sensible as well, but i have to play pretty loud to get even that almost inexistant sound on the vid, and it's kinda early
06:40:48 <oklopol> also i don't really know that many songs
06:41:31 <fizzie> I just saw the words "naked" and "oklopol" and reflexively wgetted the link, before noticing the sfw label.
06:42:10 <oklopol> you don't really see anything good
06:42:45 <fizzie> Yes, well, turning the camera around a bit was a nice touch, still.
06:43:01 <oklopol> well i had to see the screen to know where the button is!
06:43:16 <oklopol> also i wasn't actually going to send that version, it's just i probably woke my neighbors already.
06:48:37 <oklopol> cool, it's not even that bad on 50% speed
06:49:28 <oklopol> except left-right sync kinda sucks, requires more concentration
06:50:38 <oklopol> i need to go there i think ->
06:52:05 * Sgeo feels like he's cheating in Project Euler
06:52:17 * Sgeo isn't thinking about the math, he's just using quick Python
07:23:28 <oklopol> Sgeo: the rule of thumb is if it takes over a minute to solve, you're doing it wrong; whether you use math or programming doesn't matter
07:23:40 <oklopol> also for python, i'd increase the limit a bit
07:28:51 * Sgeo needs to go to sleep eventually
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11:40:34 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=294
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11:50:42 <ehird> <oklopol> Sgeo: the rule of thumb is if it takes over a minute to solve, you're doing it wrong
11:51:03 <ehird> I've written my program but should it take days to get to the answer?
11:51:03 <ehird> Absolutely not! Each problem has been designed according to a "one-minute rule", which means that although it may take several hours to design a successful algorithm with more difficult problems, an efficient implementation will allow a solution to be obtained on a modestly powered computer in less than one minute.
11:51:08 <ehird> the program should RUN in less than one minute
11:51:10 <ehird> it could take hours to write
11:59:43 <ehird> i did. it went over my head
11:59:50 <augur> its just lambda calculus :|
12:00:22 <augur> why is CG too hard? :|
12:01:41 <augur> what about it do you find hard to understand??
12:03:55 <augur> i havent slept yet xp
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12:14:58 <nooga> how to match chars like óąćńę etc. using regexp?
12:15:17 <ehird> by typing them into the regexp
12:15:34 <ehird> if your language just does bytes, hope it's in the right encoding and get a new language
12:16:27 <nooga> i thought i could use range like a-z
12:16:38 <ehird> you can if your language is unicode, nooga
12:18:16 <ehird> nooga: you can do it
12:18:42 <nooga> i guess there's no automagic thing to convert ą->a ę->e etc
12:18:56 <ehird> there's a script for thta.
12:20:19 <ehird> nooga: anyway, why do you want to do that?
12:20:58 <fizzie> If you just want to match "alphabetic characters" in general, that might be possible too. I don't do ruby, but the POSIX character-class [[:alpha:]] might work there. Perl regexps have \p{IsAlpha} which does the same thing.
12:21:22 <ehird> you have to deal with encoding and everything
12:21:28 <ehird> for what you match it on
12:21:30 <ehird> just don't go there
12:21:41 <ehird> nooga: anyway either find a script to do it or don't do it because it sounds like a bad idea
12:22:33 <ehird> nooga: Anyway, you can pipe it to http://www.tablix.org/%7Eavian/blog/archives/2009/01/unicode_transliteration_in_python/
12:23:30 <ehird> i.e., `python -c "from unidecode import unidecode; import chardet; print unidecode(chardet.detect(sys.stdin.read())['encoding'])"`
12:23:34 <nooga> did it using gsub and dictionary
12:23:44 <ehird> nooga: congrats, now it only works if someone inputs UTF-8
12:23:48 <ehird> if anyone uses UTF-16 it'll stay
12:23:53 <ehird> also, you still haven't said WHY
12:28:55 <nooga> tr('ąćęłńóśźżĄĆĘŁŃÓŚŹŻ', 'acelnoſzzacelnoſzz')
12:29:30 <ehird> your function is _broken_
12:29:45 <augur> and ehird doesnt use spaces
12:29:55 <nooga> oh, it's only srcipt for me to build some tags
12:29:56 <ehird> not when i'm talking to complete fucking morons, no
12:30:11 <ehird> nooga: well gee, maybe if you'd actually said that one of the three times i asked
14:02:34 <nooga> coud i say that "i excess distance to avoid trafic jams" ?
14:03:34 <ehird> no, for several reasons
14:03:41 <ehird> 1) I don't know what "coud" is
14:03:48 <ehird> 2) Excess isn't a verb
14:03:53 <ehird> 3) I don't know what "trafic" is
14:06:46 <nooga> how to say that i choose longer way
14:08:20 <augur> nooga: you say "I choose a longer way"
14:08:25 <ehird> That sentence isn't even vaguely grammatically correct, but let's give it a try.
14:08:44 <ehird> nooga: "I take the longer route to avoid traffic jams."
14:08:49 <ehird> That only works in present-tense, though.
14:08:53 <ehird> If you mean you do it in general:
14:08:56 <augur> or more fluidly, "I travel further, but in doing so, bypass traffic jams and get to my destination sooner"
14:08:58 <ehird> "I take longer routes to avoid traffic jams."
14:09:11 <ehird> augur: that's adding rather more semantics than what he said :
14:09:21 <augur> tho i suspect the truth behind what you're saying is more like
14:09:30 <augur> "I take the quickest route."
14:09:58 <augur> which is true in the case of traffic jams precisely when its faster to take a longer route
14:10:21 <augur> but which is also true sans traffic jams, which is likely also what you really mean to convey
14:10:51 <fizzie> "I take the road less traveled, for it makes all the difference in avoiding traffic jams."
14:11:22 <ehird> "I'm a scenic driver because traffic jams irk."
14:11:25 <augur> interesting paradox: sometimes, adding more roads to a road network can increase mean travel time
14:12:07 <augur> fizzie, did you see my tutorial on categorial grammar? x3
14:12:39 <fizzie> I have a horrible urge to answer "tl;dr" here.
14:12:53 <augur> you should read it anyway. its not /too/ long
14:12:57 <ehird> fizzie: I agree with the disinterested sentiment, but never say "tl;dr" or I'll kill you.
14:13:04 <nooga> i need a sentence: take longer route to avoid <something>
14:13:23 <augur> its pretty quick going if you're familiar with lambda calculus and can generalize it.
14:13:30 <augur> *typed lambda calculus
14:13:55 <ehird> nooga: in what context?
14:14:01 <ehird> commanding someone to take the longer route?
14:14:05 <augur> ehird: none, hes context free x3
14:14:08 <ehird> saying that you always take the longer route?
14:14:15 <ehird> saying that you, right now, as an action, take it?
14:14:26 <nooga> take longer route TO AVOID something
14:14:31 <ehird> i was leaving that implicit
14:14:52 <ehird> nooga: then: "I always take a longer route to avoid traffic jams."
14:14:59 <ehird> "I generally take a longer route to avoid traffic jams."
14:15:09 * ehird wonders wtf nooga is doing :)
14:15:24 <augur> ehird: who knows. he's a nutball.
14:15:58 <ehird> subtle gay undertones!
14:16:34 <augur> he's got two balls of nuts next to his yule log :o
14:17:01 <ehird> that's um… some penis
14:17:06 <augur> youve never heard of a yule log?
14:17:14 <ehird> i know what a yule log is.
14:17:38 <ehird> i just don't think that penises are generally all that swirly you know?
14:17:40 <augur> its when you plot the amount of joy relative to time of the year, on a log-log scale
14:17:47 <ehird> also you don't cut bits off of them. usually
14:18:06 <augur> uh.. how are yule logs swirly?
14:18:21 <augur> well around their axis, i guess, sure.
14:18:24 <ehird> http://www.aeb.org/Recipes/Desserts/CHOCOLATEALMONDYULELOG_files/chocolate-almond-yule-log.jpg; you might have meant actual, uhh, logs
14:18:32 <ehird> but everyone says yule log to mean that so nyah
14:18:38 <ehird> (if that's 404 cut off the ending ;)
14:19:11 <augur> but real testicles are not made from pecans held together with syrupy stuff either
14:19:37 <ehird> i think i should go see a doctor
14:22:20 <augur> http://www.violet.com/index.php?catname=new%20gifts&detail=AB010420
14:22:25 <augur> ive been thinking about doing just that
14:23:20 <augur> goggles for cutting onions
14:23:28 <ehird> augur: that doesn't link to an actual product there
14:23:42 <ehird> just a "WE'RE CLOSING SOON! so 'sall cheap."
14:23:43 <augur> stupid redirect :|
14:23:57 <augur> http://www.swiss-miss.com/2007/10/onion-action-go.html
14:23:58 <ehird> also they fail to say why they're closing
14:24:01 <ehird> i hate it when people don't say that
14:24:07 <ehird> *companies, not people
14:24:27 <augur> ive got some goggles from chemistry class that i can use. :D
14:24:57 <ehird> i wonder if anyone's synthesized coffee in a lab.
14:25:06 <augur> http://www.swiss-miss.com/2007/06/nomad_travel_si.html
14:25:17 <augur> ehird: synthesized coffee? probably not.
14:25:35 <ehird> augur: well they should!
14:25:43 <ehird> just synthesize the perfect cup of coffee without any of that pesky process
14:31:13 <augur> only one month left!
14:31:23 <augur> until i get my own apartment
14:31:41 <augur> im gonna have a KITCHEN
14:31:51 <ehird> why did you say ugh
14:31:59 <augur> because its not here right now!
14:32:14 <ehird> augur you can have my imaginary apartment
14:32:17 <ehird> it's great apart from not existing
14:32:56 <ehird> hmm well it has every room ever
14:33:01 <ehird> you just walk into the next room and it's the room you need
14:33:05 <ehird> and the room is exactly how you want it
14:33:14 <ehird> it only has two rooms because every other one comes from just switching
14:33:16 <ehird> also it's of arbitrary size
14:33:21 <ehird> and it's in an arbitrary place
14:33:25 <ehird> it's wherever you want it to be right now
14:33:27 <augur> that reminds me of a story or something
14:33:33 <ehird> and looks exactly like whatever you want it to be right now, etc.
14:33:33 <augur> about a house that existed in four dimensions
14:33:36 <ehird> also it is imaginary and does not exist
14:33:50 <ehird> augur: “—And He Build a Crooked House—”
14:33:53 <ehird> by Robert A. Heinlein
14:33:57 <augur> i love you ehird. <3
14:34:07 <ehird> all that pedanticism
14:34:10 <ehird> and I make a trivial spelling error
14:34:27 <AnMaster> <oklopol> AnMaster: can you play .wmv? <-- probably
14:37:00 <ehird> omg, his ARMS are naked in it
14:37:05 <ehird> that's just horrific
14:39:04 <ehird> oklopol isn't here augur
14:39:12 <ehird> of him playing pian
14:39:16 <ehird> it's almost like playing penis naked
14:39:29 <ehird> oklopianorn: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/pianoriff.wmv
14:39:36 <ehird> pianorn is a really crap term
14:39:44 <augur> oklopol playing piano?! :o
14:40:55 <augur> oklopols so adorable
14:42:49 <fizzie> It's not just arms, thanks to that camera-rotation fan-service thing at the end.
14:43:12 <ehird> yeah i said arms before that
14:43:34 <ehird> what could be more explicit than invisible-due-to-darkness, compressed-to-hell oklochest
14:43:55 <GregorR> So compressed he could be wearing a bloody overcoat :P
14:44:01 <GregorR> (Sleeveless overcoat? :P )
14:44:45 <fizzie> Just tell your computer to "enhance"; that works at least in TV series.
14:47:22 <augur> random overcaffeinated fact: potatoes are a member of the nightshade family and as such their leaves are incredibly toxic to humans. while the spuds themselves contain very small amounts of toxin, they do contain /some/ toxin, and despite its incredible improbability it is possible to die from eating a potatoe
14:47:42 <ehird> it's possible to die from the cyanide in an apple too!
14:47:52 <ehird> (if you have just almost enough to die already)
14:47:56 <augur> such cases often occur when potatoes for a large part of a persons diet, and eating large quantities of potato in one sitting increases the risk of death
14:48:36 <GregorR> RICE RULES POTATOS ARE SUCK
14:48:59 <augur> japanese sticky rice is absolutely delicious
14:51:20 <augur> the important parts of a nuclear bomb are called the "physics package", in acknowledgement of the fact that nuclear bombs use physics to blow shit up.
14:51:58 <ehird> augur: as opposed to regular bombs
14:52:01 <ehird> which don't use physics to blow shit up
14:52:20 <augur> those use chemistry!
14:52:31 <ehird> which isn't dictated by the laws of physics.
14:52:44 <ehird> augur: clearly we need ’bombs, which use ’pataphysics to blow shit up
14:53:02 <ehird> hm wait is it ’ or just '
14:53:11 <ehird> probably ’pataphysics
14:53:33 <augur> i dont reember where thats from but i recognize it
15:07:04 <GregorR> So a bomb that's just made of a balloon filled with tacks that you overinflate until it pops, sending tacks flying everywhere ... are we back to a physics package now? :P
15:07:27 <ehird> that would be amazing
15:07:33 <ehird> you could have like 10 billion tacks, easy
15:07:38 <ehird> just make it the size of a mansion
15:07:48 <ehird> GregorR: fill the balloon with expanding gas or something
15:07:50 <ehird> so it pops extra hard
15:08:00 <GregorR> It has to be lighter than air though :P
15:08:20 <ehird> GregorR: nope, you can drop it from a plane
15:08:35 <ehird> just shove it out hard and set up the inflater
15:08:41 <ehird> also put a sharp thing on the bottom
15:08:50 <ehird> so that it pops from inflation and being poked simultaneously
15:08:56 <ehird> when it hits the ground
15:09:21 <ehird> GregorR: i like how it'd be really impressive but not do much more than scratch somebody mildly
15:09:23 <GregorR> If you had the tacks built in to the fabric of the balloon, instead of just sitting in there, you would guarantee maximum distribution.
15:09:25 <ehird> *mildly scratch sometbody
15:09:49 <GregorR> If you were like "OMG look up, there are tacks coming at us!"
15:10:00 <ehird> that's what i look for in a mansion-sized bomb that requires a plane at an exact altitude to work
15:10:09 <ehird> the ability to poke eyes out if you're unlucky
15:11:10 <GregorR> My version is still not mansion-sized :P
15:11:25 <ehird> GregorR: you need a shitload of tacks to do much damage
15:11:29 <ehird> considering how much they'll spread
15:11:42 <ehird> so about 10 billion
15:11:48 <GregorR> Or, it'll just have to be really well-aimed and explode low.
15:11:51 <ehird> could poke out like 5 eyes if you're lucky
15:11:58 <ehird> GregorR: but we're dropping this on a city!
15:12:10 <ehird> it's the battle of mild annoyance of the enemy
15:12:19 <ehird> their retaliation was to send a bunch of birds over here to poop on us
15:12:53 <GregorR> Here's my thought: You toss an inflating balloon ready to burst full of tacks into the bunker of the enemy. They're all like "aw shit if I pop that it's gonna be sucky, get a bucket--*KABOOOM*--OW MY FUCKING EYES"
15:13:56 <ehird> GregorR: okay another idea
15:13:59 <ehird> gigantic water balloon
15:14:00 <GregorR> Anyway, I was really just looking for any way to make an explosion that was non-nuclear and non-chemical :P
15:14:11 <ehird> you just drop it on your enemy
15:14:16 <ehird> and they have to go dry themselves off
15:14:35 <ehird> GregorR: it probably counts as chemical to a degree
15:14:53 <GregorR> It's just fluid dynamics maaaaaaaaaaaaan
15:15:36 <ehird> http://www22.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=father%27s+brother%27s+nephew%27s+cousin%27s ;; I wonder how Wolfram Alpha reacts to incest
15:17:01 <ehird> darn "parents brother" just picks one
15:18:08 <GregorR> ... why is the probability of sharing a dominant trait with a sibling less than the frequency in the population ...
15:18:54 <GregorR> In fact, that graph seems to be the same for absolutely any relationship I enter.
15:19:32 <ehird> http://www22.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=brother%27s+brother%27s+brother%27s+brother%27s+mother%27s+brother%27s+mother%27s+brother%27s+son%27s+brother%27s+son
15:19:38 <ehird> Bother bother b(r)other!
15:19:52 <ehird> I like how it's second cousin
15:20:01 <ehird> "Oh, my second cousin! Hi!"
15:20:10 <ehird> "Well, we have a few people between us..."
15:20:19 <GregorR> At what "blood relationship fraction" does sex become OK? :P
15:20:36 <ehird> GregorR: iirc it's okay to breed with your second cousin
15:20:39 <ehird> and might actually be genetically beneficial
15:20:45 <ehird> i think second cousin
15:21:01 <ehird> GregorR: so uh, 1.5625% :P
15:22:31 <ehird> GregorR: People On The Internet say that perhaps fucking your first cousin is even better
15:23:05 <ehird> http://www22.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tenth+cousin
15:23:11 <ehird> 0% blood relationship!
15:24:46 <Slereah> ehird has a rounding error
15:24:54 <ehird> A very minor rounding error :P
15:25:37 <GregorR> Alternatively, one can look at "blood relationship" as "percentage of identical DNA"
15:25:47 <GregorR> In which case all humans are >99% blood related.
15:25:58 <ehird> We're all inbreeding.
15:26:03 <ehird> You can't outbreed. :P
15:26:07 <GregorR> We should be having sex with ... trees?
15:26:14 <ehird> if the same species somehow evolved independently
15:26:18 <ehird> on completely isolated halves of the world
15:26:22 <ehird> without ever breeding together or even touching
15:26:29 <ehird> then they could have sex and it wouldn't be inbreeding
15:26:35 <ehird> they themselves would be the product of inbreeding
15:26:57 <ehird> so two people of the same species would have to independently, unrelatedly spontaneously come into existence
15:27:03 <ehird> that would be outbreeding
15:27:06 <ehird> Slereah: uhh, that's incest.
15:27:17 <fizzie> "We're all inbreeding" sounds to me more being about some sort of channel-wide orgy.
15:27:22 <ehird> Slereah: you're from the same family?
15:27:25 <ehird> if you're cloned you're identical
15:27:29 <ehird> it's still the same clump of atoms
15:27:35 <ehird> doesn't matter how it came about
15:27:45 <Slereah> If aliens with pretty much the same genetic code aren't family, why would a construct with a similar genetic code be our family?
15:27:50 <ehird> for all we know the universe does "for all atoms, atoms[i] = random()" every planck time
15:28:06 <ehird> fizzie: that would be OK too
15:29:17 <Slereah> But random() is only pseudo random dude
15:29:35 <ehird> statistical analysis seems to suggest not :P
15:29:48 <Slereah> Depends what you mean by random
15:30:07 <ehird> Slereah: analysis of the nuclear decay of atoms shows it to be of exceptional randomosity from our point of view
15:30:39 <Slereah> But it is not the sauce of random()!
15:30:47 <ehird> "Unfortunately, they are proposing to manage all of these increased expenses the same way the Nazis did -- by killing sick and old people." —reddit
15:30:57 <ehird> It's so unfortunate.
15:34:10 <ehird> From the same person:
15:34:12 <ehird> "I'm really sorry but..what if I'm right, and you are a Nazi, and just don't know it?"
15:34:24 <ehird> (after calling someone a nazi and being called out on it)
15:34:33 <ehird> GregorR: You kill babies.
15:35:25 <Slereah> The first step to salvation is admitting that you are a nazi
15:35:49 <ehird> "I always used to be firmly for world government, but recently I have seen a lot of people saying right now we have kind of a secret world empire and that they are really evil people that plan on eliminating free speech and killing 2/3 of the world population (to save the environment or something).[…]I'm not for *that* kind of evil world government."
15:35:55 <ehird> He prefers the fluffy, kind evil world government.
15:36:07 <ehird> ([…] contains… a newline, and nothing else.)
15:37:58 <ehird> The funny thing about these people is how good they are at self-delusion… kind of like the rapture people… it hasn't happened yet because they're still grooming us for it. And again. And again, again, again.
15:38:19 <Slereah> Are you some kind of nazi ehird
15:38:26 <ehird> Yes. A nazi of LOVE.
15:39:02 <Slereah> Will you send grumpy people to concentration camps?
15:39:39 <ehird> Someone else commenting on one of his insane posts: [[I'm glad to see this being posted outside of /r/conspiracy because the writing is on the wall and has been for years now.]]
15:39:43 <ehird> Just like all the other conspiracies!
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15:47:34 <oerjan> <ehird> omg, his ARMS are naked in it
15:47:49 <oerjan> it's the new Michelle Obama look, i read about it in the paper today
15:47:51 <ehird> hey i just came up with that in 3 seconds
15:48:41 <oerjan> ehird: i believe there is prior art. involving leslie nielsen and some homocidal maniac.
15:49:00 <ehird> it was... a joke... as a reference
15:49:50 <ehird> <Whoopi Goldberg, on the moon landing> Who shot the footage? 'Cause, I mean, you see the two astronauts[…]
15:49:56 <ehird> FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
15:51:21 <oerjan> and everyone knows they didn't have timer technology in 1969.
15:51:37 <oerjan> unless, WAIT, maybe they got it from those roswell aliens!
15:52:18 <oerjan> it all makes sense now. they really _did_ go to the moon, but they secretly used alien technology!
15:52:37 <ehird> CHIMPANZEE INVESTIGATORS
15:53:41 <ehird> THAT'S A CHIMPANZEE
15:53:43 <ehird> SHAPED LIKE A MOON
15:54:52 <oerjan> the mother of all chimpanzees
15:56:59 <oerjan> <GregorR> I'm glad I prefer rice. <-- i've read that badly treated rice is a major source of food poisoning
15:57:37 <oerjan> never store it for long in room temperature after cooking
15:58:36 <oerjan> <ehird> augur: clearly we need .bombs, which use .pataphysics to blow shit up
15:59:10 <ehird> you jewnicode hitler
15:59:51 <oerjan> that would be 'terrorism
16:00:16 <ehird> we need ’pataprogramming
16:00:20 <ehird> it's modifying the metaprograms.
16:01:50 <oerjan> <ehird> GregorR: i like how it'd be really impressive but not do much more than scratch somebody mildly
16:02:56 <oerjan> hm those would be a pain to put in a balloon without premature popping
16:03:25 <ehird> pop a cap^Wballoon
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16:20:39 <oerjan> GregorR: i take it you are really fond of food poisoning.
16:22:05 <oerjan> i guess technically if a wasp stings while you're eating it, it can count as both
16:22:34 <GregorR> Anyway, I tend to eat rice, y'know, immediately after cooking it?
16:22:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:22:51 <GregorR> Whereas wasps of course must be eaten raw and living.
16:23:21 <GregorR> You just tug out their stinger and *munch munch munch*
16:23:32 <ehird> the stinger is the best part
16:24:11 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:24:41 <GregorR-L> Although raw is the proper way, they're pretty good cooked in oil too.
16:25:43 <ehird> 16:23 ehird: no man
16:25:43 <ehird> 16:23 ehird: the stinger is the best part
16:26:16 <ehird> just take an antidote. but it's so crunchy and sweet!
16:26:29 <GregorR-L> I've eaten a mosquito before. In fact, I think I then immediately came in here and said "lawl I ate a mosquito"
16:26:53 <ehird> "Bees and wasps are OK eaten after a good boiling. The poison is basically a protein which disassembles at boiling temperatures. The stinger softens. Pounding them before boiling is effective. Bee and Wasp Larvae are delicious!"
16:27:07 <ehird> "Alternately, you could put the wasp in the freezer until became docile with the cold. You might not even have to remove the stinger that way."
16:43:03 <ehird> Scammy site overing webhosting with 50GB of storage for $6.95/mo
16:43:10 <ehird> You gotta know that shit grows on trees.
16:43:17 <ehird> Cheap Website Hosting
16:43:19 <ehird> Cheap hosting plan:
16:43:21 <ehird> - 1500,000 MB of storage
16:43:23 <ehird> That's just ridiculous.
16:43:34 <oerjan> i didn't know that. i though it came out of butts.
16:43:49 <ehird> if they mean , as in separator
16:43:52 <ehird> then that's almost 1.5TB
16:43:56 <ehird> if they mean it as in decimal
16:44:00 <ehird> then who the fuck says 1500.000?
16:45:01 <Deewiant> 1.500.000 commonly means 15 * 10^5
16:45:25 <ehird> also if it means 1500 then that's less than the cheaper plan
16:45:41 <ehird> Deewiant: but there's no dot in this
16:45:51 <ehird> "1500,000 MB" is either 1.5TB of a really stupid way of saying 1500 MB
16:46:02 <Deewiant> I was semi-responding to ( ehird) then who the fuck says 1500.000?
16:46:26 <augur> ehird, its not stupid, its very precise
16:46:28 <Deewiant> Maybe you might have 1500 MB + 200 bytes
16:46:44 <ehird> actually 0.001mb = kb
16:46:48 <Deewiant> So they specify how precise it is
16:46:49 <ehird> so you couldn't express 200 bytes with three
16:46:54 <ehird> augur: yes but this site is ridiculously loose with language
16:46:57 <ehird> like all scammy ultra-cheap hosting sites
16:47:11 <Deewiant> ehird: So they say it's guaranteed to not be 1 kilobyte over 1500 MB
16:47:16 <Deewiant> But it might be 200 bytes more
16:47:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but dude,
16:47:39 <ehird> Deewiant: That's less storage space than the plan that costs one dollar less.
16:47:49 <ehird> The whole site is just a fuckfest XD
16:48:04 <Deewiant> I wouldn't be surprised if that other one were a typo
16:48:28 <ehird> i wanna know how they profit off 1.5TB for less than $8/mo!
16:48:35 <ehird> (Answer: by not giving you 1.5TB.)
16:50:13 <GregorR-L> Who could actually USE 1.5TB? What they actually give you is "unless everybody starts using it at once, we'll have that much space free for your files"
16:50:28 <GregorR-L> It's like how a bank doesn't actually have enough cash for everybody to withdraw everything at once.
16:51:08 <AnMaster> ehird, the computer arrived. I will fetch it at the local post office in a few hours.
16:51:30 <ehird> AnMaster: it's actually a bobcat
16:51:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: …I could easily use 1.5TB…
16:52:03 <AnMaster> ehird, is this joke a reference to something?
16:52:11 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it really is a bobcat.
16:54:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://xkcd.com/325/
16:56:02 <oerjan> great alt/title text, too
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16:57:26 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you'll need to change fontconfig settings to 129 dpi.
16:57:33 <ehird> otherwise text will be way too small.
16:57:48 <ehird> is it 15.4 or 15.6 inch
16:57:54 <ehird> if 15.6 (shut up augur), then 127
16:58:05 <AnMaster> what do you mean "shut up augur"?
16:58:26 <ehird> okay technically 128.65
16:58:30 <ehird> but you can't really do that.
16:58:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to bother about that once I got stuff like partitioning, encryption and so on done...
16:59:14 <ehird> AnMaster: i doubt you'll even be able to read the text without straining at such a wrong dpi setting
16:59:56 <AnMaster> ehird, installing arch uses the linux vt though
17:00:02 <AnMaster> so about zero I can do at that point about it
17:00:14 <ehird> P.S. it will also catch on fire if you don't additionally turn on RGB antialiasing, and set hinting to "light")
17:00:22 <AnMaster> I tried yesterday with virtualbox
17:00:56 <AnMaster> (that was when I found out virtualbox assert()ed on a guest with 2.6.30 kernel...)
17:01:49 <ehird> assert()ing is pretty regular :P
17:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you mean "assert() failed".
17:04:03 <AnMaster> ehird, btw a fun thing: my cd/dvd drive burns perfectly fine CDs that k3b claims failed the verification pass. But using dd to dump the cd and comparing it to the iso show no differences. And they work perfectly too
17:04:17 <ehird> AnMaster: k3b will be more nuanced
17:04:20 <AnMaster> on another drive I attached to test with, k3b doesn't claim they fail.
17:04:21 <ehird> cds aren't really digital
17:04:24 <ehird> scratches, skips etc
17:04:34 <ehird> AnMaster: the drive might be bad
17:05:27 <ehird> yes, in all other aspects
17:05:37 <AnMaster> ehird, even burning using plain cdrecord
17:05:46 <ehird> a tv that can't display images works in all other aspects too :p
17:06:04 <AnMaster> ehird, the cds actually work though, Even in other drives.
17:06:16 <ehird> Right now they do.
17:06:22 <ehird> Anyway, the drive's _reading_ might be fucked up.
17:06:26 <ehird> Thus causing the errors.
17:07:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, dumping it with dd reading with the same drive shows no difference so I'm not sure how it would be messed up
17:07:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Scratched disks read perfectly too, sometimes. But not always.
17:07:48 <AnMaster> and the only times cdparanoia complained was when the cd used had scratches. And it likes to complain about things.
17:07:49 <ehird> Anyway, the DISC COULD BE FINE. The drive just might be READING it wrong.
17:07:59 <AnMaster> ehird, no visible scratches on this completely new cd-r...
17:08:04 <ehird> IT WAS AN EXAMPLE!
17:08:15 <AnMaster> but I want to find the real cause
17:08:17 <ehird> You seem to think CDs and CD drives are like USB sticks; a bit's either one or zero and the only errors can be logical writing or reading errors.
17:08:20 <ehird> It doesn't work like that.
17:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed it doesn't. But what sort of error is it? k3b doesn't tell me
17:21:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw IWC was quite funny today IMO
17:24:56 <ehird> AnMaster: that's lame, ELER did it before
17:25:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure a lot of comics has done it before
17:25:38 <ehird> eler does meta the best though
17:25:43 <ehird> i never meta eler comic i didn't like
17:25:57 <ehird> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/
17:26:02 <ehird> Everybody Loves Eric [S] Raymond.
17:26:05 <AnMaster> oh the one that updates once / year or so
17:26:23 <ehird> hey, it got once a month or so in ’07!
17:26:43 <ehird> although there were no updates in ’08 :)
17:26:58 <ehird> 1; the current one
17:27:09 <ehird> basically the last one metaed :)
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17:39:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: hilarious, wasn't it.
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17:50:37 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: [Pretending to be Sine Area] Logs from this channel: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:51:11 -!- ehird has set topic: ‡ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:53:00 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric.
17:53:41 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
17:53:51 <ehird> "In an ironic twist on Mapua artist Roger Griffiths' protest withdrawal of his $190,000 savings in $20 notes from Westpac yesterday, the money was today back with Westpac.
17:53:53 <ehird> Mr Griffiths deposited the cash at the Nelson Building Society in Richmond, but because NBS banks with Westpac, it has deposited the money there."
17:54:04 -!- ehird has set topic: Nostalgia is dead! Which is why we don't link to the logs any more. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:54:29 <ehird> The bit I made up or the bit I didn't?
17:54:42 <GregorR-L> Nothing you make up is funny. OHHHH BURN
17:55:26 <oerjan> Funny make up is nothing, you.
17:56:42 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: [Носталгија Ареа] #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
17:58:01 <GregorR-L> Wonderfully, Google Translate can (incorrectly) detect that that Serbian is Macedonian, but can't translate it to English :P
17:58:15 <oerjan> i was wondering about the j...
18:08:08 <oerjan> no, definitely cyrillic based
18:08:27 <oerjan> but with that strange j mixed in
18:08:54 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: hilarious, wasn't it. <-- indeed
18:10:04 <GregorR-L> oerjan: And "Apea" entirely in latin script :P
18:10:29 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, what does that phrase mean?
18:10:57 <GregorR-L> "erbian is the best example of synchronic digraphia. Both Latin and Cyrillic alphabets are widely used in Serbia in a large variety of contexts, and most people are literate in both scripts."
18:11:01 <oerjan> GregorR-L: except Apea is also perfectly valid cyrillic afaik
18:11:33 <oerjan> and it makes more sense that way
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18:41:06 <GregorR-L> `translate Me gusta Google Translate!
18:41:40 <GregorR-L> Hello inexplicable added symbol :P
18:41:42 <ehird> GregorR-L: add `translateto
18:41:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Use: translate <text>' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ wget --user-agent="" \ \ 'http://translate.google.com/translate_t?text='"$QUERY"'&sl=auto&tl=en' \ \ -O - | \ grep result_box | \ perl -pe 's/^.*result_box
18:41:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/translate
18:41:58 <ehird> `paste bin/translate
18:41:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1342
18:42:15 <oklopol> GregorR: actually "mit vittua" means "weird symbol, what the fuck"
18:43:04 <oerjan> `translate Kefir mjølk, kefir ikkje kaffi?
18:43:05 <HackEgo> Kefir Mj LK, Kefir not coffee?
18:43:33 <oklopol> Deewiant: i doubt that'd help much
18:43:41 <GregorR-L> Stupid HackEgo not being psychic :P
18:43:45 <ehird> `run wget http://pastie.org/557942.txt?key=qjidtjokinumzi74zrs0w -O bin/translateto; echo 'translateto en "$@"' > bin/translate
18:43:56 <ehird> `translate mitä vittua
18:44:11 <GregorR-L> `fetch http://pastie.org/557942.txt?key=qjidtjokinumzi74zrs0w
18:44:11 <HackEgo> GNU Wget 1.11.4, a non-interactive network retriever. Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too. Startup: -V, --version display the version of Wget and exit. -h, --help print this help. -b, --background go to background after startup. -e, --execute=COMMAND execute a `.wgetrc'-style command. Logging and input file: -o, --output-file=FILE
18:44:12 <HackEgo> http://: Invalid host name.
18:44:20 <ehird> `run fetch http://pastie.org/557942.txt?key=qjidtjokinumzi74zrs0w -O bin/translateto; echo 'translateto en "$@"' > bin/translate
18:44:52 <oerjan> `translate Immer mit dem Unicode!
18:45:09 <ehird> `run fetch http://pastie.org/557945.txt?key=qd0f5hgnhxg4isykm3wfg -O bin/translateto; echo 'translateto en "$@"' > bin/translate
18:45:14 <ehird> `translate im a bitch lol
18:45:31 <GregorR-L> ehird: fetch cannot be run in 'run', it's a builtin, not a command.
18:45:39 <ehird> `fetch http://pastie.org/557945.txt?key=qd0f5hgnhxg4isykm3wfg
18:45:39 <HackEgo> 2009-07-24 17:45:39 URL:http://pastie.org/557945.txt?key=qd0f5hgnhxg4isykm3wfg [338/338] -> "557945.txt?key=qd0f5hgnhxg4isykm3wfg" [1]
18:45:42 <HackEgo> 557942.txt?key=qjidtjokinumzi74zrs0w \ 557945.txt?key=qd0f5hgnhxg4isykm3wfg \ bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.26894
18:45:52 <ehird> `rm 557942.txt?key=qjidtjokinumzi74zrs0w
18:46:00 <ehird> `run mv 557945.txt?key=qd0f5hgnhxg4isykm3wfg bin/translateto
18:46:06 <ehird> `run echo 'translateto en "$@"' > bin/translate
18:46:12 <ehird> `translate gutten tag
18:46:29 <ehird> `run chmod +x bin/*
18:46:32 <ehird> `translate fuck bitch
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18:46:51 <ehird> <bunny> Help help help help help
18:46:55 <ehird> <bunny> …god damn it
18:46:55 <oerjan> `translate fru Ibsens ripsbusker og andre buskvekster
18:47:06 <oerjan> `translate Como estas?
18:47:08 <ehird> `translate MAYBE IF I TRY IT A FEW MORE TIMES IT'LL START WORKING
18:48:04 <oerjan> `run ls -l bin/translate
18:48:05 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 20 Jul 24 17:48 bin/translate
18:48:14 <GregorR-L> ehird: Is your translateto even REMOTELY correct? It just seems wildly wrong.
18:48:43 <GregorR-L> Also, when something is run as `foo bar, everything goes as ONE argument.
18:48:50 <oerjan> GregorR-L: there was a translation error between ehird's brain and keyboard
18:49:04 <ehird> i was working on that
18:49:09 <ehird> `fetch http://pastie.org/557954.txt?key=0hiipgsxhwifd4whcr5wg
18:49:09 <HackEgo> 2009-07-24 17:49:09 URL:http://pastie.org/557954.txt?key=0hiipgsxhwifd4whcr5wg [338/338] -> "557954.txt?key=0hiipgsxhwifd4whcr5wg" [1]
18:49:18 <ehird> `run mv 557954.txt?key=0hiipgsxhwifd4whcr5wg bin/translateto
18:49:21 <ehird> `run chmod +x bin/translateto
18:49:23 <oklopol> stop the nonsense and make it work again.
18:49:28 <ehird> `run translateto fi "hello world"
18:49:37 <ehird> `run translateto de "hello world"
18:49:50 <ehird> `run echo 'translateto en "$@"' >bin/translate
18:49:51 <oklopol> in finnish "moikka maailma :)"
18:49:53 <ehird> `run chmod +x bin/translate
18:49:53 <Deewiant> Yes, translating "hello world" to Finnish is just a matter of capitalizing the words
18:50:00 <ehird> `translate hallo welt
18:50:08 <ehird> well someone fix that.
18:50:20 <Deewiant> ehird: #!/bin/sh or something?
18:50:25 <ehird> Deewiant: no, that's automatic
18:50:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Use: translate <text>' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ wget --user-agent="" \ \ 'http://translate.google.com/translate_t?text='"$QUERY"'&sl=auto&tl=en' \ \ -O - | \ grep result_box | \ perl -pe 's/^.*result_box
18:50:34 <ehird> GregorR-L: would you stop that?
18:50:44 <ehird> i'm trying to fix it and you just keep reverting it
18:50:50 <GregorR-L> Because you're needlessly fucking with translate when translateto DOESN'T EVEN WORK YET.
18:50:52 <ehird> Deewiant: he reverted it
18:50:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: yes it does
18:51:00 <ehird> `run translateto de "Hello world"
18:51:06 <GregorR-L> `translateto es This should work without 'run', retard.
18:51:06 <ehird> Clearly it's just hardcoded that result.
18:51:07 <Deewiant> ehird: translate works now, so who cares what's reverted
18:51:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: I see. And who dictated that?
18:51:21 <ehird> Maybe you should write mv(1) to do that, too.
18:51:26 <ehird> I don't think you can use it directly.
18:51:36 <GregorR-L> Otherwise you're typing `run translateto foo "Wow this is a stupid way to translate."
18:51:36 <ehird> Oh, and everything else in /bin.
18:51:53 <ehird> The extra six keypresses will kill us.
18:52:05 <ehird> Never mind, you know, obeying general unix conventions.
18:52:05 <GregorR-L> Heaven forbid you should have to translate something with quotes in it
18:52:12 <ehird> Another character!
18:52:21 <ehird> Woe betide we, the tormented translators.
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18:54:07 <GregorR-L> `translateto fi Behold, magical translation without needless complication.
18:54:08 <HackEgo> Katso, maaginen knns ilman tarpeetonta monimutkaisuutta.
18:54:27 <GregorR-L> `translate Katso, maaginen käännös ilman tarpeetonta monimutkaisuutta.
18:54:28 <HackEgo> See, magical K NPV s without unnecessary complexity.
18:54:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: why don't you just remove the arbitrary command execution of hackego so that you never have to revert people who use such uncouth interface practices as that of any standard UNIX tool?
18:54:41 <GregorR-L> That's some pretty magical KÃ € Ã € ¶ NPV.
18:54:46 <Deewiant> `translateto en Katso, maaginen käännös ilman tarpeetonta monimutkaisuutta.
18:54:47 <HackEgo> See, magical K NPV s without unnecessary complexity.
18:55:17 <GregorR-L> ehird: Things in HackEgo's bin directory are not unix commands. It's that simple. They are commands run on UNIX, but they are not intended to follow UNIX conventions. If they were, then `addquote would be a HUGE pain in the arse.
18:55:40 <ehird> and the solution to this is to rampantly revert my changes before I have even a second to attempt to change it
18:55:49 <ehird> very hackable bot you got there
18:55:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I just thought of a slogan you would love:
18:56:18 <ehird> AnMaster: fsvo love equal to shit
18:57:13 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q=fsvo
18:57:44 <AnMaster> &/)&¤%( why are unpacking instructions at the *bottom* of a package!?
18:58:36 <AnMaster> inside a plastic shrinkwrap too
19:00:52 <oerjan> plastic shrinkwrap is clearly a torture instrument
19:04:00 <AnMaster> now lets see what vista is like
19:04:05 <AnMaster> it is what is preinstalled on it
19:04:11 <AnMaster> I want to try it for the lulz first
19:05:15 <AnMaster> vista rebooted itself first thing?
19:05:30 * ehird bets AnMaster doesn't have a wireless router
19:05:52 * GregorR-L bets AnMaster IS a wireless router.
19:05:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I do have wlan. But it preferred to hook up to the neighbour's unprotected network
19:06:12 <ehird> That is a good policy.
19:06:44 <ehird> AnMaster: because it doesn't involve entering a key.
19:06:56 <ehird> Presumably your WLAN is protected.
19:07:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, and not announced either
19:07:06 <FireFly> It probably took the first unsecure network, sorted by highest connection
19:07:08 <ehird> It shouldn't assume you know the key, but it wants interwebs at all time.
19:07:09 <FireFly> To make stuff easier for you
19:07:27 <FireFly> As a non-techsavvy user, that is
19:08:45 <AnMaster> vista doesn't accept *not* storing a password reminder thingy
19:09:16 <ehird> AnMaster: which vista version does it have?
19:09:27 <ehird> No, like the edition.
19:09:32 <ehird> There's Vista, which sucks, and there's Vista, which is utterly fucking terrible.
19:09:43 <ehird> The latter one is, like... anything but Ultimate.
19:09:56 <Deewiant> Home premium is perfectly sufficient
19:10:10 <Deewiant> Seriously, Ultimate has pretty much nothing on top of it :-P
19:10:21 <ehird> what about the bill gates signed editint??!!>!??!?!o
19:10:24 <Asztal> Windows Ultimate was supposed to have downloadable extras, but ended up with just DreamScene, which is useless
19:10:37 <Asztal> especially so on a laptop
19:11:03 <AnMaster> anyway... it isn't like I will *use* vista
19:11:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes you will, you said your university requires it.
19:11:33 <ehird> "Windows DreamScene is a utility that allows videos and other optimized animations to be used as desktop wallpapers. It is one of the Windows Ultimate Extras."
19:11:54 <AnMaster> ehird, since virtualbox has 3D acceleration now I doubt it will be a major issue
19:12:26 <ehird> Like, without warning?
19:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, like after two minutes with "busy cursor" after it asked me to enter all that info...
19:13:35 <AnMaster> ARGH boot sound is bad enough in XP
19:14:10 <AnMaster> anyway: impression so far: ugly
19:14:32 <ehird> business doesn't even have aero does it
19:15:42 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista_editions#Comparison_chart
19:15:52 <ehird> and starter edition!
19:16:02 <ehird> Microsoft also makes another variant of Windows Vista Ultimate available to raise awareness of AIDS in Africa: WINDOWS VISTA (PRODUCT) RED. This edition is available pre-installed on select Dell computers and also through The Ultimate Steal.
19:16:17 <ehird> They should have called it "Windows Vista, AIDS Edition"
19:16:27 <ehird> It's more direct. It'd sell like hot cakes!
19:16:47 <ehird> By "hot cakes" I mean assholes.
19:16:52 <ehird> And, like, selling = penis.
19:17:30 <AnMaster> "Lenovo recommends you register your computer so we can give you better support and help you get as much as possible out of your Lenvo computer"
19:18:33 <ehird> AnMaster: You mean like every other computer manufacturer?
19:19:07 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't know. Since several years I only have either recycled or home built computers
19:19:16 -!- atrapado has joined.
19:19:23 <ehird> Recycled computer! Bits of your case become your CPU.
19:19:29 <ehird> Your graphics card is made out of your old mouse.
19:19:44 <ehird> The memory is made out of STARVING AFRICAN CHILDREN.
19:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, recycled as in: take old computers someone else is going to throw away when they get a new
19:19:51 <AnMaster> they work very well still often
19:20:07 <AnMaster> but very good for stuff like nfs server or whatever
19:20:10 <ehird> Computers generally do work unless they're broken.
19:20:46 <AnMaster> ok. Summary of vista's design: ugly
19:21:26 <ehird> I much prefer Fisher Price XP.
19:21:38 <AnMaster> summary of vista's speed: Slow as fuck. But maybe that is because it is first boot
19:21:47 <AnMaster> on XP I always use the 2000-style theme
19:21:53 <AnMaster> (by stopping the "theme" service)
19:22:27 <ehird> AnMaster: You know that you can do that in settings?
19:22:30 <ehird> Without stopping the theme service?
19:22:45 <ehird> Anyway, lemme guess, the harddrive is 5400rpm?
19:22:50 <AnMaster> ehird, but stopping the service is a good idea when you run it in a VM with 300 MB
19:22:52 <ehird> Vista is slow, but that's gonna compound it a lot.
19:23:11 <AnMaster> ehird, 7200 RPM on the model they had at home. Only 160 GB though
19:23:26 <ehird> Lenovo have a store in AnMaster's house.
19:23:26 <AnMaster> as for the extra 2 GB they are going to arrive on Monday it seems
19:23:59 <AnMaster> ah seems like windows update is finally no longer a hack inside internet explorer
19:24:05 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:24:24 <ehird> It wasn't in XP service pack 3, either, IIRC.
19:24:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ah... I stopped using XP before that
19:26:09 <AnMaster> ok. Now the infamous asking for permission under vista started
19:26:17 <AnMaster> it asks if I want Java Updater to be allowed
19:26:27 <AnMaster> but it doesn't seem to say *allowed to do what*
19:26:42 <Deewiant> Do something that needs your permission, of course!
19:27:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wouldn't it be a good idea to say *what* said thing was
19:27:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, it certainly would
19:27:47 <Deewiant> For the record I disabled that misfeature on my first day of Vista, IIRC
19:27:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it always like that under vista btw?
19:28:00 <AnMaster> that it doesn't say what it wants to do
19:28:03 <Deewiant> Beats me; like said, I don't use it
19:28:08 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you're probably running under an admin account.
19:28:12 <ehird> you should, like, fix that.
19:28:19 <ehird> ...or just wipe the vista install because who wants it
19:28:29 <AnMaster> I just want to see how wtf it is
19:28:43 <AnMaster> I'm going to install xp in virtualbox later
19:29:06 <AnMaster> ehird, costs more money than using existing non-OEM cd
19:29:14 <ehird> Isn't the RC still free?
19:29:21 <AnMaster> ok win update wants to download 551 MB
19:29:28 <ehird> Anyhoo, the software distributor $torrent_site.com has always been very cheap for me.
19:29:30 <AnMaster> ehird, won't that be disabled later on?
19:29:35 <ehird> Free, actually, now I think about it.
19:30:32 <ehird> oklopol: don't cybersex AnMaster
19:30:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, can't easily atm. Since mouse is connected to the laptop and I'm using xchat because I was doing DCC a while ago
19:30:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, if it is about the music: I downloaded it but haven't yet had time to listen to it
19:31:12 <ehird> It's 40 seconds long.
19:31:19 <ehird> You're just scared of oklochest.
19:31:30 <oklopol> yeah i just made sure you got that, it was such hard work to record it.
19:31:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually watched a few secs to make sure wmv worked
19:31:58 <ehird> It's chest at the end.
19:32:08 <AnMaster> but I couldn't use headphones then due to just having showered
19:32:28 <ehird> You can't deny it!
19:32:39 <AnMaster> ok it seems vista still fails to handle connecting the same USB device to different usb ports well
19:32:42 <oklopol> MY PENIS MUST BE BIGGER THAN I THOUGH
19:32:51 <AnMaster> that is just silly under windows
19:32:59 <ehird> oklopol: yes also your neck connects directly to that
19:33:02 <ehird> what's up with that
19:33:05 <ehird> also your arms attach to it
19:33:09 <ehird> also it has no head
19:33:18 <ehird> how did they circumcise it incidentally
19:33:20 <ehird> weirdest penis i ever seen
19:33:43 <AnMaster> ehird, connect an USB mouse of whatever to a system running windows
19:33:51 <AnMaster> it takes a few seconds to install a driver if it is first time
19:33:58 <ehird> ...not for a mouse
19:34:09 <AnMaster> ehird, um yes. And this is a MS mouse...
19:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway. Reconnect it to a different USB port on the computer... Now it will take the long "installing" thing again
19:34:36 <oklopol> my penis is circumcised? they don't really do that in finland, so doesn't sound likely.
19:34:40 <AnMaster> but it wouldn't if it was the same
19:34:51 <ehird> oklopol: well hey i didn't see any foreskin to that neck/arm attachment thing without a head
19:34:52 <AnMaster> it is still like that under vista
19:34:55 <ehird> i'm just going on the evidence
19:35:27 <AnMaster> ehird, might need a computer with different host units for each port, instead of one host thingy and an internal hub
19:35:34 <AnMaster> cheaper computers often have/had the latter
19:35:54 <AnMaster> ehird, because I never had problems when moving between ports on the same external hub
19:35:57 <ehird> i wouldn't call thinkpads "cheap"
19:35:59 <ehird> more like "expensive"
19:36:17 <AnMaster> ehird, but point is, you wouldn't notice it on a *cheap* computer
19:36:47 <ehird> i've never used a mouse with a driver really
19:36:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well. other USB ones then
19:37:09 <ehird> no usb sticks have drivers!
19:37:13 <AnMaster> I never seen an USB device this *didn't* apply to
19:37:23 <AnMaster> ehird, yes they do. the generic Mass storage driver
19:37:39 <AnMaster> ehird, and it happens for them too...
19:38:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a thingy in the task bar that pops up and says "detecting hardware....", flicks to: "installing driver", flicks to: "done"
19:38:20 <AnMaster> (text from memory and then translated to English)
19:38:22 <ehird> well that's not really installing
19:38:30 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway that is what I referred to
19:38:33 <ehird> that's just HEY YOU CONNECTED A DEVICE
19:38:38 <ehird> which is not a useful indicator, but
19:38:41 <ehird> it's not reinstalling stuff afaik
19:38:49 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't happen if you connected to *the same usb port* before
19:38:55 <Deewiant> If you've used your mouse without a driver then the pointer on the screen hasn't moved
19:38:57 <AnMaster> but if you *change* usb port it does it again
19:39:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you know what I mean right?
19:39:19 <ehird> Deewiant: i meant one that pops up the add new hardware box
19:39:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and this redetecting just because you use a different usb port is very silly
19:40:41 <AnMaster> why are there some photos on the right side of the screen in vista
19:40:59 -!- jix has joined.
19:41:07 <Deewiant> It's the sidebar or whatever it's called
19:41:17 <Deewiant> And the default widgets that live there
19:41:26 <AnMaster> oh. seems like a parody of the widget thingy in OS X
19:41:38 <ehird> no, it's less stupid than OS X's
19:41:42 <AnMaster> not expose, but something like it
19:41:45 <ehird> with OS X's, it is modal
19:41:47 <ehird> over all other windows
19:41:55 <ehird> so you have to go into dashboard mode, look at whatever widget you want
19:42:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Dashboard
19:42:09 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway one thing: I'm going to salvage the fonts before I delete vista
19:42:20 <ehird> apart from the C* family
19:42:25 <ehird> and you can get those free from microsoft.com
19:42:28 <ehird> in a .cab of some kind
19:42:38 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you said they were better than XP ones and better tuned to Linux and Windows than the OS X ones iirc?
19:42:40 <ehird> there's a script that downloads it, extracts them and puts 'em in ~/.fonts
19:42:53 <ehird> specifically for these
19:42:59 <ehird> you just do $ ./vista_fonts
19:43:03 <ehird> AnMaster: oh… well,
19:43:10 <ehird> Vista doesn't ship with Helvetica or anything
19:43:20 <ehird> 19:42 AnMaster: ehird, iirc you said they were better than XP ones and better tuned to Linux and Windows than the OS X ones iirc?
19:43:25 <ehird> i'm not sure what this means
19:43:46 <AnMaster> ehird, ah. well you said the OS X ones weren't suited to hinting or something like that
19:43:47 <ehird> there's no good fonts on a default vista other than the C* family, which is on microsoft.com
19:44:00 <ehird> fonts made for windows
19:44:09 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, you have a 1680x1050 display
19:44:18 <ehird> you'd be insane to hint more than "slight"
19:46:49 <ehird> i mean unless you have a micrometer-thick pen and draw large letter shapes with it then look at it from a distance
19:46:52 <AnMaster> ooh it has a built in lamp for the keyboard above the monitor
19:46:56 <ehird> if that's your thing then i guess more would be cool
19:47:05 <ehird> AnMaster: not as cool as backlit keys :D
19:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, true. but you can use it as an emergency reading light too
19:48:00 <ehird> AnMaster: why what?
19:48:34 <AnMaster> why about what I said myself the line above
19:48:37 <AnMaster> and I don't have a good answer
19:49:34 <AnMaster> Windows Update: Update 10 of 44 is installing
19:49:55 <ehird> AnMaster: They're silly for only shipping SP1.
19:49:58 <ehird> Is the keyboard any good, btw?
19:50:09 <ehird> I'd assume so, but people complained when Lenovo changed the keyboards (rather expectedly).
19:50:18 <ehird> Apparently if you touch between two keys they sort of buckle together.
19:50:38 <ehird> AnMaster: take product that hasn't changed for, like, decades, try to improve it, RAAAAAAAAAAAR WHY DID YOU CHAAAAANGE IT
19:50:42 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, just bullshit then
19:51:13 <AnMaster> ehird, don't know where it says it
19:51:25 <AnMaster> and not going to take it down to weight it atm
19:51:30 <AnMaster> since it is hooked up to ethernet
19:51:51 <ehird> AnMaster's sense of weight is binary
19:51:55 <ehird> either something's heavy, or it's not
19:52:04 <ehird> A bed? Eh, about as heavy as the Eiffel tower.
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19:52:22 <AnMaster> or to quote the nomes: Aunty Gravy
19:52:32 <AnMaster> (I assume you read those books)
19:52:52 <ehird> augur: I had a physics/coffee-related revelation but forgot.
19:53:04 <AnMaster> ehird, Truckers/Diggers/whatever the third one was called. By Terry Pratchett
19:53:18 <AnMaster> oh... "Wings" I think the name of the third one was
19:53:32 <oklopol> truckers is almost synonymous to diggers
19:53:49 <AnMaster> ehird, then you know what I'm talking about
19:54:02 <ehird> augur: Oh, but I did find something about formalizing Lojban's grammar.
19:54:12 <ehird> http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/lojban/grammar/index.html
19:54:16 <oklopol> i thought Truckers/Diggers/whatever was a very vaguely remembered name
19:54:35 <oklopol> well clearly not, if you read the whole sentence
19:54:44 <oklopol> but i don't really have the time
19:54:46 <AnMaster> ok the size of the touchpad is a bit wth
19:54:50 <ehird> AnMaster: big or small?
19:55:03 <ehird> that's... standard
19:55:07 <ehird> all laptops have wide touchpads
19:55:13 <ehird> or at least all widescreen laptops
19:55:16 <ehird> for obvious reasons
19:55:18 <AnMaster> ehird, should be a bit taller though
19:55:26 <ehird> you just have big hands.
19:55:28 <AnMaster> but yeah there are the trackpoint keys above
19:55:45 <augur> its not so much about formalizing lojbans grammar
19:55:50 <ehird> augur: please address me on the same line. :p
19:55:56 <ehird> augur: and shush, just click the link
19:56:06 <augur> ehird: is more about handling it in well understood linguistic frameworks
19:56:13 <ehird> which that page is about.
19:56:48 <AnMaster> where is the MAC for the wlan in vista?
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19:57:25 <ehird> "AnMaster — because people really desperately want to leech internet off of me, instead of that person without any authentication. Est. 2009."
19:57:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: "ipconfig /all" in the console might show you it.
19:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well... when I set it up last year all networks around were using encryption too
19:58:13 <AnMaster> where is the "run..." in the start menu?
19:58:51 <augur> ehird: no, that page is not about that.
19:58:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow, and I was just talking about irrational resistance to change.
19:59:12 <ehird> 19:58 AnMaster: IT'S GONE!?
19:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't irrational. It just means it is a lot harder to use
19:59:36 <ehird> The space it searches in includes the filesystem, yes.
19:59:40 <augur> ehird: how do you figure its got anything to do with existing linguistic frameworks?
19:59:49 <ehird> So it's not, like, a combination; it just follows naturally from search.
19:59:56 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can enter all the commands the same?
20:00:31 <ehird> augur: eh, I don't recall
20:00:35 <ehird> but you complained the grammar was unreadable
20:00:40 <ehird> and that was about fixing that
20:00:41 <augur> its not, dude. its all PEG crap
20:01:19 <AnMaster> I thought you could tap the trackpoint to click
20:01:23 <ehird> AnMaster: you can.
20:01:30 <ehird> AnMaster: install the drivers.
20:01:35 <ehird> synaptic touchpad thingie.
20:01:40 <ehird> maybe on a disc with your computer.
20:01:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it comes preinstalled with lenovo's drivers
20:01:45 <ehird> augur: i detect a dislike of PEG :P
20:01:49 <ehird> AnMaster: go into the settings then
20:01:50 <AnMaster> and scrolling on the side of the touchpad works
20:01:52 <ehird> probably in a tray icon
20:02:03 <augur> partially, but more so, PEG is not adequate for the description of natural language grammars
20:02:05 <AnMaster> ehird, tapping the touchpad works
20:02:29 <augur> ehird: it might be POSSIBLE, but its not /adequate/
20:02:34 <AnMaster> ehird, there are like 20 tray icons
20:02:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Nonsense! Of course tiny unlabeled icons with a huge delay before you can identify them that rearrange, appear and disappear at random is a good UI.
20:03:25 <augur> consider, for instance, that the core aspects of english grammar (nay, _all_ grammar) can adequately be handled by a very small (5-10) rules using a unification grammar
20:03:26 <AnMaster> ehird, they haven't started hiding like in XP yet...
20:03:32 <AnMaster> guess it is just a matter of time though
20:04:02 <AnMaster> "Hardware and sound" <-- odd category in the control panel thingy
20:04:13 <augur> HPSG's core rule set that handles the majority of english is about 4 rules in size.
20:04:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah yes, Shakespeare's early draft:
20:04:34 <augur> and these are not rules of enormous size or complexity
20:04:44 <augur> they're very simple rules with no alternations
20:04:45 <ehird> "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow,
20:04:45 <ehird> Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
20:04:47 <ehird> To the last syllable of recorded time,
20:04:49 <ehird> And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
20:04:51 <ehird> The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
20:04:53 <ehird> Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
20:04:55 <ehird> That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
20:04:57 <ehird> And then is heard no more: it is a tale
20:04:59 <ehird> Told by an idiot, full of sound and hardware,
20:05:01 <ehird> Signifying nothing."
20:05:18 <ehird> That had rather more lines than I would prefer.
20:05:22 <AnMaster> why can't you resize cmd.exe *sideways*
20:05:24 <ehird> Shakespeare was clearly no twitterer.
20:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: You can, in the preference thingies.
20:05:46 <augur> ehird: shakespeare no twitterer, or twitterers no shakespeare?
20:05:48 <ehird> I should tweet Macbeth.
20:06:10 <augur> for, if they had such wondrous things to say would they not have chosen something else?
20:07:04 <ehird> 2mrw*3 comes day2day 2 last part of recorded time and all days lit fools way to death
20:07:11 * AnMaster ponders how to copy the WPA-PSK key...
20:07:19 <ehird> man this toast is great
20:07:24 <ehird> out, out brief candle!!
20:07:31 <ehird> gotta ask the chef how he made this
20:07:34 <ehird> never had better toast in my life
20:07:40 <ehird> imo life's like a shadow. a walking shadow.
20:07:52 <ehird> okay, i said i liked the toast but this porridge is AMAZING
20:08:16 <ehird> AnMaster: By the way, what is the freak mutant top three thingies in http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9297.jpg?
20:08:25 <ehird> 20:07 AnMaster ponders how to copy the WPA-PSK key...
20:09:19 <augur> have you seen the size of those lojban grammar files?
20:09:44 <augur> they're ridiculous!
20:09:44 <ehird> The formalized grammar sucks.
20:09:52 <augur> it sucks because its in PEG
20:10:03 <ehird> It's in EBNF and Yacc.
20:10:21 <augur> natural language is not CF but
20:11:31 <augur> let me give you the core, non-unbounded-dependency parts of HPSG
20:11:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it must be weird having a computer you can pick up more powerful than a heavyweight thing.
20:11:45 <augur> which means the parts that handle all the simple sentences
20:12:18 <ehird> AnMaster: if the laptop is anything like the configuration i assembled it's like 10x more powerful than your sempron desktop
20:12:20 <augur> Head Feature Principle: P[HEAD a] -> H[HEAD a], ...
20:12:28 <ehird> it'd weird me out :P
20:12:47 <augur> (the HEAD feature of the "head daughter" of P must unify with the HEAD feature of P
20:13:07 <augur> (where P is any phrase, and ... denotes the other words in the phrase)
20:13:27 <ehird> augur: you know, I'm not listening
20:14:01 <augur> there were only two more rules, but FINE. :|
20:14:02 <ehird> putty is ... pretty regular
20:14:05 <ehird> augur: well fine then
20:14:08 <ehird> don't wanna leave it incomplete
20:14:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: By the way, what is the freak mutant top three thingies in http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9297.jpg?
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20:14:20 <ehird> Above the actual pad.
20:14:31 <AnMaster> ehird, oh. the click buttons for the trackpoint
20:14:39 <ehird> AnMaster: No... they're below the pad.
20:14:51 <ehird> Or are there two copies, one with an additional middle click button?
20:14:54 <AnMaster> ehird, those are the click bottons for the trackpad
20:14:55 <augur> Valence Principle for Complements: P[COMPS <>] -> H[COMPS <a...z>] a...z
20:15:00 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure what the middle one is for
20:15:00 <ehird> AnMaster: ...they're separate?
20:15:04 <ehird> That's... ridiculous.
20:15:18 <ehird> How do you scroll, anyway? Multitouch?
20:15:20 <ehird> I haven't used many laptops.
20:15:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the middle one pops up some scrolling icon on the cusor
20:15:27 <ehird> AnMaster: that's a windows thing
20:15:30 <ehird> or rather, not inherent
20:15:34 <augur> which says a phrase P with no complement requirements is formed from the combination of the head daughter, requiring comps a...z, with the actual comps a...z
20:15:47 <AnMaster> ehird, the scrolling on the trackpad?
20:15:50 <augur> where <a...z> is a list of feature structures that must unify with a...z
20:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: try swiping two and three fingers down at the same time
20:15:58 <ehird> you might be able to scroll that way
20:15:58 <AnMaster> well, drag one finger right at the right side
20:16:29 <augur> Valence Principle for Specifiers: P[SPR <>] -> a H[SPR <a>]
20:17:08 <augur> which says a phrase with no requirement for specifiers can be formed by a feature structure a, and the head daughter which requires a feature structure that unifies with a
20:18:06 <augur> sorry, those should be the Head-Complement Rule and the Head-Specifier Rule, respectively x3
20:18:25 <AnMaster> fun it says the key isn't valid
20:18:42 <augur> there are two more rules for non-argument modification of phrases, and for logical conjunction of phrases
20:19:01 <augur> those are relatively minor and not terribly interesting
20:19:35 <augur> so ehird, those few rules actually handle the core of the grammar of english
20:19:44 <augur> or any language you want, really.
20:19:54 <ehird> your mom too though
20:21:23 <AnMaster> ok it seems to work fine atm...
20:21:25 <augur> the head-modifier rule is simply P -> H m[MOD H] (a phrase can look like a head followed by a modifier that requires that kind of head)
20:21:58 <ehird> I don't think it's possible to hate IE 8 and prefer Firefox objectively from first click.
20:22:03 * AnMaster pukes at the new design in firefox 3.5
20:22:04 <ehird> Since, y'know, they look mostly the same.
20:22:13 <ehird> Oh come on. Firefox 3.5 vastly improved the UI.
20:22:19 <ehird> You're just a massive conservative.
20:22:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I still prefer the 1.5 look
20:22:32 <augur> and the conjunction rule is P[SYN a] -> c1[SYN a]...cn[SYN a] x[HEAD conj] cn+1[SYN a]
20:22:36 <ehird> As I said, you're just a massive conservative.
20:23:05 <augur> which just says a phrase with syntactic features a can have a bunch of other constituents with the same syntactic features, the last two separated by a conjunction
20:23:09 <AnMaster> ehird, No. you claimed I was a socialist a few days ago. You can't call me right wing/conservative today
20:23:26 <ehird> You're just inconsistent.
20:23:34 <AnMaster> and windows is installing update 36
20:23:39 <augur> anmaster, he lives in Oceania
20:23:43 <ehird> Admittedly, a socialist who's also rigidly opposed to change is also an idiot, but that's nothing new.
20:23:49 <AnMaster> augur, what is that a reference too
20:24:06 <ehird> Maybe an extra day on top of that too.
20:24:22 <AnMaster> Australia and the islands around there
20:24:24 <ehird> <AnMaster> I remember how to use Google now.
20:24:28 <AnMaster> not used to that name in Swedish
20:24:35 <augur> yes, thats precisely what i mean, anmaster.
20:25:21 <augur> ehird lives in britain, one of the larger islands in the austropolynesian islands.
20:26:05 * pikhq was unaware that Britain was austropolynesian
20:26:16 <AnMaster> now I have a dir called C:\Program Files but shown as C:\Program. And one that is actually named C:\Program
20:26:32 <augur> pikhq: its part of oceania, therefore it must be!
20:29:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you think of this wtf?
20:30:49 <AnMaster> can't find key for bios settings hm
20:31:10 * AnMaster guesses and press the usual ones
20:32:18 <AnMaster> also, I created a new account and set the first one to normal user now
20:33:16 <oerjan> clearly, Oceania has always been at war with Sweden.
20:35:58 <AnMaster> oh it is F1 but it doesn't list it
20:37:13 <AnMaster> huh it lists a parallel port? *looks at the computer*
20:37:47 <AnMaster> the computer *does* seem to have a serial port though. Or maybe some mini vga
20:38:02 <AnMaster> there is a display symbol at it
20:38:58 <AnMaster> it isn't the usual size of either anyway
20:39:18 <ehird> that's an apple thing
20:39:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well it isn't the same shape as the apple mini dvi
20:39:49 <ehird> take a pic (your screen w/ camera can bend and rotate arbitrarily right?)
20:41:20 <AnMaster> which seems to be for I/O virtualization
20:41:21 <ehird> all non-entry-level intel chips and all amd chips have virtualization
20:41:31 <ehird> (intel entry = celeron)
20:41:54 <AnMaster> ehird, as opposed to just CPU VT
20:42:24 <pikhq> ... Supported by most every chipset.
20:44:02 <pikhq> ehird: It virtualises the hardware interrupt table and the DMA controller in hardware.
20:46:03 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
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20:48:16 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, this does have the fingerprint thing. Not that I'm going to use it
20:48:29 <ehird> it can't -lessen- security
20:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it can, compare: boot by fingerprint or boot by password
20:49:00 <ehird> that's not using fingerprints
20:49:01 <AnMaster> "require both" doesn't seem to be an option in the bios
20:49:07 <ehird> that's using fingerprints and dropping passwords
20:49:13 <ehird> which is not the same as using fingerprints
20:49:47 <ehird> i'll be the first in line for a brain implant which carries around an authentication key for me
20:49:50 <AnMaster> anyway setup bios setup password and boot password now
20:49:56 <AnMaster> ehird, someone will hack it :D
20:50:00 <ehird> well maybe second in line
20:50:05 <ehird> wouldn't want to risk it after all
20:50:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it'd work like gpg
20:50:19 <ehird> all they could do is steal a message signed by you
20:50:27 <ehird> or encrypted by you
20:50:29 <ehird> and, uhh, big deal :P
20:50:34 <ehird> *pgp; gpg is an implementation
20:50:49 <ehird> yeah i don't see people doing that :-P
20:50:57 <ehird> hacking poop would be a fun job though
20:51:05 <ehird> AnMaster: "Launch missiles"
20:51:13 <AnMaster> ehird, sadly much more boring... PC card ejection thingy
20:51:21 <ehird> It commands the button to be shiny.
20:51:32 <AnMaster> oh windows vista is *configuring* the updates now
20:51:36 <AnMaster> it installed them before rebootinbg
20:51:37 <ehird> You can keep pressing it and it'll still be shiny.
20:51:49 <FireFly> Also, having fingerprint thingy highers the risk that someone who REALLY need to get into your computer cuts of your finger?
20:52:06 <GregorR> Also, MythBusters sez "fingerprint scanners suck. A lot."
20:52:09 <ehird> Put the password first.
20:52:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, it is easy to fake it anyway
20:52:30 <AnMaster> FireFly, just need something I touched. and a laserprinter
20:52:54 <AnMaster> FireFly, anyway, point is: fingerprints aren't very secure
20:53:14 <ehird> FireFly: ask google for a link
20:53:18 <ehird> AnMaster: months, prolly
20:53:20 <ehird> since i've forgotten
20:53:23 <ehird> well okay i don't remember weeks either
20:53:31 <ehird> or for that matter a significant quantity of days
20:53:44 <ehird> i should start using a super-quick note-taking application; my memory is rather volatile
20:53:49 <FireFly> Or maybe an amount of hours?
20:54:05 <ehird> FireFly: sorry, did you say something?
20:54:42 <FireFly> At least IRC has the benefit of logs
20:54:56 <FireFly> Real life needs public logging
20:55:01 <AnMaster> ok: don't rename user you are logged in as
20:55:04 <FireFly> Maybe not too much logging
20:55:27 <FireFly> Why would that affect the bg? :\
20:55:45 <FireFly> It's strange, that's what I said, yeah
20:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: directory
20:56:32 <ehird> AnMaster: i've never heard of it before sooooo
20:56:45 <ehird> well i broke xp one time by renaming a user i think
20:56:50 <ehird> but i just made a new user
20:57:32 <AnMaster> ehird, currently logged in one was the issue
20:58:06 <AnMaster> and yeah I think it was registry that failed
21:00:34 <GregorR> Apparently you can buy dried bull penis as a chew toy for dogs.
21:01:12 <AnMaster> I thought it was done last time
21:01:18 <AnMaster> but now it is downloading another two updates
21:01:34 <ehird> You are a bit, a service pack and a bit behind.
21:01:57 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you forgot one comma there
21:02:07 <ehird> The Oxford comma is not standard, no.
21:02:09 <ehird> I do sometimes use it.
21:02:33 <AnMaster> You are a bit (a service pack and a bit) behind."
21:03:25 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about that suspend thing: did you mean it suspends to disk and to ram, and it case of battery running out it is still possible to wake it from disk?
21:03:38 <AnMaster> or do you mean it ends suspend to ram too after a few minutes?
21:03:46 <AnMaster> the former I found out how to do
21:04:19 <AnMaster> windows is shutting down it says
21:04:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it does suspend-to-ram, then while it sits there, writes to disk
21:04:27 <AnMaster> but the disk light is going like mad
21:04:31 <ehird> well it might not shut off
21:04:35 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok... don't know how to do that
21:04:38 <ehird> since it's like 0.1 watt
21:04:48 <ehird> but there's no reason to just do regular suspend to ram
21:04:52 <ehird> and suspend to disk just takes years
21:04:59 <AnMaster> anyway I read on thinkwiki that disabling WOL can save quite a bit
21:05:14 <AnMaster> why would a laptop need WOL anyway
21:05:41 <ehird> Because they use regular chipsets + some stuff.
21:05:49 <ehird> AnMaster: people use laptops as machines on a desk
21:05:58 <AnMaster> ooh I found the ultrabay ejection thingy
21:06:16 <AnMaster> it is like a small lever that pops out a thingy that you use to pull out the drive
21:08:38 <AnMaster> but really they are running out of keys soon
21:08:48 <AnMaster> why doesn't desktops have that Fn key
21:13:12 * AnMaster hooks bluetooth up to his phone
21:18:25 <AnMaster> where is "My computer" on the desktop
21:18:33 <AnMaster> where is the setting to activate it
21:19:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Right-click desktop -> personalize -> change desktop icons
21:20:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, *looks in Swedish windows*
21:20:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh you meant in the right click menu
21:20:53 <AnMaster> seems lenovo replaced the computer icon
21:20:57 <Deewiant> Yeah, "x -> y" tends to imply that y is under x
21:21:12 <AnMaster> with the outline of a laptop in a black circle
21:22:00 <Deewiant> That can presumably be changed, don't ask me how
21:26:58 <AnMaster> something is accessing the disk very bussily
21:28:16 <Deewiant> procmon will tell you if you care
21:28:18 <AnMaster> ok it managed to go to rest when I wanted to shut down very strange
21:28:21 <Deewiant> It's probably the search indexer
21:28:36 <Deewiant> Like an updatedb that constantly runs in the background at low priority
21:28:53 <Deewiant> I disabled the service after it was still going after a couple of months, it started to annoy me
21:29:36 <AnMaster> since a laptop isn't always on, cron won't work well
21:30:05 <Deewiant> I never really search for anything anyway
21:30:43 <AnMaster> how do you get the classical windows login dialog btw? Like "Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to login"
21:31:00 <Deewiant> Beats me, I have this remember my password so I don't get a dialog
21:31:49 <Deewiant> If somebody gets on this machine everything is lost anyway
21:31:59 <Deewiant> I really don't care at that point whether they can login or not :-P
21:33:00 <AnMaster> was just change the theme to the standard one
21:33:07 <AnMaster> then change back the desktop bg
21:34:14 <AnMaster> why does it beep loudly when you plug/unplug power
21:35:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you disable the index thingy
21:35:55 <Deewiant> Control panel -> services IIRC
21:36:17 <Deewiant> Alternatively windows explorer has the search settings
21:36:35 <Deewiant> Not sure which one, or is it both
21:40:22 <AnMaster> ok scary. The think admin utils doesn't seem to need you to auth as an admin
21:40:41 <ehird> 21:08 AnMaster: why doesn't desktops have that Fn key
21:41:46 <ehird> http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/gallery/wired_4_20090306.jpg and http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/gallery/wireless_1_20070813.jpg
21:41:49 <ehird> AnMaster: all macs
21:42:02 <ehird> for mac pros, you have the option of http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/gallery/wired_1_20070813.jpg
21:42:13 <ehird> AnMaster: macs are like 10% of the market, soo
21:42:20 <ehird> that's a substantial portion with fn
21:42:39 <Deewiant> But without other modifier keys, so :-P
21:43:24 <ehird> (the place of interest sign)
21:43:35 <AnMaster> `addquote <ehird> Apple = Windows.
21:43:36 <HackEgo> 52|<ehird> Apple = Windows.
21:43:46 <ehird> Deewiant: thank god for that
21:43:48 <Deewiant> You're missing at least one there :-P
21:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, was great out of context :D
21:43:53 <ehird> the menu key is terribly useless
21:43:58 <ehird> also, you can get kbs without it
21:44:07 <ehird> desktop != pc that's totally windowsy
21:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird, useful, since you remap it to the super key
21:44:20 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you remap command to thta
21:44:25 <ehird> oh wait, no remapping
21:44:27 <ehird> it already is that.
21:44:37 <ehird> anyway, fn control option command shift
21:44:42 <ehird> if i wanted more i'd kill myself
21:44:48 <ehird> AnMaster: option, duh
21:45:08 <Deewiant> On this keyboard I've got two unmapped modifier keys
21:45:18 <Deewiant> Which I could use for something but haven't bothered to figure out what
21:45:31 <ehird> http://www.ap.org/media/images/APnewsregistry.jpg
21:45:31 <ehird> <Associated Press> Let's make bits uncopiable. This way, our outdated, useless business model can be jerked off some more.
21:45:52 <ehird> The image or my commentary?
21:46:28 <pikhq> Yes, because DRM worked so well for the music companies.
21:47:30 <AnMaster> why do they ship a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit system
21:47:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ... 64-bit OSes can run 32-bit code
21:48:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because a lot of Windows driver authors hate writing 64-bit drivers.
21:48:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, microkernel and have drivers in userspace
21:48:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Windows.
21:48:39 <Deewiant> Yeaaah, let's write our own microkernel OS so we can run a 64-bit OS here
21:48:51 <pikhq> Deewiant: NT is nominally a microkernel OS.
21:49:02 <pikhq> (I say "nominally" because its microkernel is not that micro)
21:49:14 <ehird> Microkernels suck.
21:49:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, and it is nominally POSIX compatible too
21:49:26 <pikhq> Many drivers for Vista and up are in userspace.
21:49:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: With Interix, more than nominally.
21:49:38 <ehird> I don't know why you seem to love QNX so much.
21:49:52 <pikhq> Unfortunately, some of the software on it is outdated.
21:50:00 <pikhq> To fix that, you can install Gentoo Prefix on it.
21:50:36 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interix
21:50:36 <AnMaster> <pikhq> To fix that, you can install Gentoo Prefix on it. <-- ARGH
21:50:38 <pikhq> Microsoft's POSIX subsystem.
21:50:50 <AnMaster> that's more wth than Gentoo/FreeBSD
21:51:05 <pikhq> You can also install Debian on it.
21:51:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, not an official project I guess?
21:51:16 <ehird> Hooray for Debian/kFreeBSD.
21:51:24 <pikhq> Gentoo/Windows? Official Gentoo project.
21:51:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, if I did debian I would get *MORE* outdated
21:51:36 <pikhq> Considered "beta", like the rest of Gentoo Prefix, but.
21:51:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Debian unstable is cutting edge.
21:51:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... GCC 2?
21:52:16 <pikhq> Interix is fucking outdated.
21:52:36 <pikhq> That's why you install a different userspace on there.
21:52:36 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interix claims it uses 3.3
21:53:08 <pikhq> Debian Stable is really rather up-to-date these days, though.
21:53:28 <pikhq> Tends to ship versions of GCC before Gentoo. XD
21:54:15 <Deewiant> Gentoo is rather slow these days.
21:54:34 <ehird> Gentoo is rather suck……… all days.
21:54:51 <AnMaster> ok.. "ThinkVantage System Update" (some Lenovo thingy) wants to update bios
21:56:00 <AnMaster> or don't you need that nowdays?
21:56:42 <Deewiant> Presumably it has instructions you can follow?
21:56:58 <ehird> AnMaster: CD-Rom or USB stick.
21:57:00 <AnMaster> seems to just install it with no need for going outside windows
21:57:01 <Deewiant> And no, you don't always need that nowadays
21:57:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Zomg! You can do things at kernel-level.
21:57:26 <ehird> augur: you were arguing for a simulation hypothesis right?
21:58:14 <ehird> universe being simulated.
21:59:31 <AnMaster> categories: Critical, Recommended, Optional, Extra, Additional
21:59:37 <AnMaster> what is the difference between the last three?
21:59:55 <pikhq> It's Windows. Abandon all logic, ye who enter here.
21:59:58 <ehird> AnMaster: categories: Maybe This Would Be a Good One, Actually If You Don't Want It That's Fine, Uhh I Think You Might Want This One
22:00:28 <Deewiant> Optional is for crap like dreamscene
22:00:38 <Deewiant> Additional has stuff like language packs
22:01:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no it is in the lenovo update tool
22:01:27 <ehird> Meanwhile, http://thereifixedit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/yoshi-keys.jpg
22:01:38 <AnMaster> extra and additional are both empty
22:01:42 <Deewiant> Well, windows update has something similar
22:02:13 <GregorR> ehird: Well, that's one kind of plug adapter.
22:02:22 <ehird> GregorR: It's a HARDCORE plug adapter.
22:02:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm fine with Critical/Recommended/Optional
22:02:44 <AnMaster> but apart from that all seems unneeded
22:02:54 <AnMaster> and not sure what the point of "optional" is in a update tool
22:03:07 <AnMaster> since that indicates *we want you to install a new software you didn't have before*
22:03:58 <AnMaster> which is not "updating" as such
22:05:51 <AnMaster> btw I don't seethe point of that keyboard light atm... it is dark and the screen itself gives enough light
22:06:21 <ehird> because you turn down the screen backlight e.g. to read a book on screen
22:06:34 <AnMaster> ok cool they have a "zoom screen" thingy on one Fn key combo
22:06:45 <AnMaster> you know what? it just changes screen resolution
22:07:10 <ehird> I'm surprised you're able to use the screen; Windows defaults to 96dpi. Everything'll be so itty bitty.
22:07:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems they set it up to right DPI in advance
22:07:39 <ehird> That generally makes windows iffy
22:07:45 <ehird> It doesn't handle non-96 dpis well.
22:08:21 <AnMaster> ehird, actually doesn't look too bad
22:08:33 <ehird> not as good as proper system-wide dpi settings
22:09:08 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like I will use windows much. But it was good that I did, or I would have missed the BIOS update
22:09:20 <ehird> I'd just wipe it altogether. Takes up space.
22:09:32 <ehird> hmm, I wonder if Arch has a freetype package with the BCI
22:09:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I will wipe it once the bios update is installed
22:09:58 <AnMaster> there is a recovery cd included
22:10:00 <ehird> [[The Pre is now telling your computer that the vendor who made it is Apple. The change here is that with previous versions of webOS, the Vendor ID was “0 × 0830 (Palm Inc.).” So while previously the Pre identified itself as a “mass storage device” called an iPod, now it’s identifying itself as a “mass storage device manufactured by Apple” called an iPod.]]
22:10:23 <ehird> Palm: Turns out we're fucked up financially. Let's be like Kim Jong-Il and launch our nukes!
22:10:33 <ehird> Apple: Stop that. *fixes iTunes*
22:10:40 <ehird> Palm: *shove* I DIDN'T SHOVE YOU
22:11:13 <ehird> [[This is a direct violation of the USB licensing agreement. But, in what can only be described as true chutzpah, Palm has preemptively filed a complaint against Apple to the USB Implementors Forum, accusing Apple of misusing the USB Vendor ID. ]]
22:11:30 <ehird> Palm: Not only did I not shove you, you shoved me!
22:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know either
22:11:40 <ehird> Palm appear to be on crack
22:12:11 <AnMaster> ehird, is itunes locked to ipods?
22:12:23 <AnMaster> then why do they want to do that
22:12:25 <ehird> But Palm aren't happy with being classed as a regular device.
22:12:34 <ehird> So they pose as an iPod to get features that iTunes only does for iPods.
22:13:04 <ehird> Anyway, apparently users find a separate syncing application totally unacceptable.
22:13:09 <ehird> Which is why every other phone ever has one.
22:13:44 <AnMaster> ehird, phone or hand held computer
22:13:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Both; they're called smartphones.
22:14:16 <ehird> Yeah, like 2004 new.
22:14:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. Ask me again in 2024
22:14:41 <ehird> Tons of Nokia phones... iPhone... T-Mobile G1 (aka Google Phone)...
22:14:44 <ehird> Every Palm phone ever
22:14:48 <ehird> Every Windows Mobile phone ever
22:15:09 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/why_did_no_one_inform_us_of_the
22:15:25 <ehird> I cannot believe Yu Wan Mei would release their tight but benevolent grip on The Onion!
22:15:29 <ehird> Is it no longer fish time?!
22:15:51 <ehird> Is, perhaps, robustness now AVOIDABLE with the consumption of Yu Wan Mei products?
22:18:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you perhaps questioning the undeniable wisdom & infallibility of Yu Wan Mei corporation and the Chinese government?
22:18:38 <AnMaster> great... windows update wants me to restart while lenovo update is installing stuff
22:18:48 <ehird> Well, sit there and refuse to answer it.
22:21:18 <AnMaster> ok it decided to reboot anyway
22:21:31 <AnMaster> might have been windows or lenvo *shrug*
22:21:40 <ehird> Windows is all about the reboots.
22:21:50 <ehird> Incidentally, I find it queer how long this is taking.
22:21:58 <AnMaster> anyway it was saying installing updated wifi driver
22:22:37 <ehird> A Linux laptop that's two major releases behind would be updated in, what, half an hour? An old Mac laptop, about 20 minutes.
22:23:01 <ehird> (Well, apart from the major OS X release boundary; but Linux updates are far more incremental so the minors are more a applicable analogy)
22:23:07 <ehird> But this Windows thing? What's it been, 3-4 hours?
22:23:32 <pikhq> 3-4 hours is an unreasonable update length even for Gentoo.
22:24:06 <pikhq> And the worst part about it is that Windows doesn't have an automated update process.
22:24:15 <pikhq> You need to hand-hold Windows through it.
22:24:21 <ehird> I'd make a policy to only buy laptops with Linux or OS X on them, but System76 unfortunately don't ship to the UK.
22:24:54 <ehird> Also System76 laptops are kinda… heavy; their first 15" starts at 2.6kg.
22:25:20 <AnMaster> I had a 12" one a few years ago that was close to 3 kg
22:25:22 <ehird> Yes, but that's e.g. with one stick of RAM.
22:25:24 <AnMaster> but yeah it was around 1999 or so
22:25:26 <ehird> And a one-platter HD.
22:25:36 <ehird> And no extra battery thingy.
22:26:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Mac laptops are ridiculously light nowadays
22:26:33 <ehird> The 17" MacBook Pro is 2.99kg.
22:26:49 <AnMaster> ok... there is a strange entry in the lenvo meny that roughly translates to "make system younger"... right below update system
22:26:58 <ehird> AnMaster: system restore?
22:27:03 <Asztal> http://imgur.com/w3mLP&7R8oCl <- OK...
22:27:07 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, that is one post below that!
22:27:08 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, why do you use swedish operating systems?
22:27:15 <ehird> i thought you said you only knew tech terms in english
22:27:28 <ehird> Asztal: Did it come with your BOOTLOADER?!?!?!
22:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well. windows was in Swedish
22:27:32 <Deewiant> Buying a system in Sweden generally gets you a Swedish OS
22:27:34 <AnMaster> ehird, not much of a choice then?
22:27:38 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, right
22:27:57 <AnMaster> ehird, actually Windows asked if I wanted to use Swedish, Finnish or Spanish at first boot
22:28:05 <ehird> What an odd choice.
22:28:06 <AnMaster> it said I couldn't change latter
22:28:09 <ehird> Is Spanish common in Sweden or something?
22:28:11 <Deewiant> You should've gone Finnish, it's much better
22:28:16 <ehird> I know there's a substantial amount of Finns; i.e. Torvalds.
22:28:35 <ehird> Torvalds is the other way around
22:28:39 <ehird> a Swedish-speaker in Finland
22:28:54 <ehird> still those countries kinda blend together know what i mean :D
22:28:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah Finnish makes sense. You could even imagine Swedish/Finnish/Dannish/Norwegian for some sort of "generic Scandinavian pre-install"
22:29:26 <pikhq> I can see English/Spanish. I can see Swedish/Finnish/Danish/Norwegian.
22:29:42 <pikhq> I can't see Swedish/Finnish/Spanish.
22:29:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Si taht wenh uyo sepak lkei tihs?
22:30:25 <AnMaster> ah no it didn't install those things
22:30:36 <AnMaster> so another 13 lenovo updates to install
22:30:43 <ehird> See, sí, it's OK on the sea.
22:30:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Typoish for "Is that when you speak like this?"
22:31:17 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I can't see Swedish/Finnish/Spanish. <-- I could. I saw the damn list!
22:31:33 <AnMaster> I did have to read it twice to convince myself though
22:31:34 <ehird> pikhq has some weird mental blocks.
22:31:37 <ehird> pikhq: can you see this? fnord
22:32:09 <ehird> I don't think we've ever had one.
22:32:12 <ehird> But it sounds fun.
22:32:14 <oerjan> <ehird> pikhq: can you see this? <-- don't be silly, you think he is blind or something?
22:32:48 <GregorR> !echo I have usurped fungot!
22:32:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I was faster there then?
22:32:50 <EgoBot> I have usurped fungot!
22:32:52 <ehird> 14:32:26 <ehird> oerjan: :-D
22:32:52 <ehird> 14:32:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, :D
22:32:53 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.07.24
22:32:58 <Deewiant> 2009-07-25 00:32:25 ( ehird) oerjan: :-D
22:32:58 <Deewiant> 2009-07-25 00:32:26 ( AnMaster) oerjan, :D
22:33:32 <oerjan> well _i_ saw ehird first and clearly that is what counts
22:33:33 <ehird> but Deewiant's was one second before
22:33:39 <ehird> you're the only one to report being first
22:33:44 <ehird> and Deewiant has shown two different times
22:33:50 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, the lag for your messages are inherently 0s
22:34:19 <ehird> yours has an advantage
22:34:45 <AnMaster> ok why can't windows ask all the "supplemental licenses" at the start
22:34:56 <AnMaster> rather than when each update is installing
22:35:18 <Deewiant> Hey, at least you can install the OS in one go these days
22:35:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, huh? you couldn't before?
22:35:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I even installed windows 98
22:35:43 <ehird> AnMaster: iTunes on OS X gives you the EULA when you start it up after an upgrade
22:35:44 <AnMaster> and I don't remember such issues
22:35:44 <Deewiant> With XP I got used to planning it; in 30 minutes it'll ask about they keyboard layout, an hour after that about a license, half hour after that it'll want a user account name
22:35:46 <ehird> which is irritating
22:35:52 <ehird> dmgs with licenses don't do that though
22:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, they should provide diffs
22:36:11 <ehird> i don't think you can legally agree to a diff
22:36:15 <Deewiant> When I hadn't yet got used to planning it it was really annoyng
22:36:23 <ehird> Deewiant: nLite or whatever.
22:36:27 <ehird> That thing that lets you script installs.
22:36:28 <Deewiant> Go away for two hours and realize it's only 20% done and waiting to know what keyboard layout to use
22:36:43 <AnMaster> ehird, Windows Scripted Install Toolkit thingy thingy?
22:36:52 <ehird> you gave it parameters, pretty much anything
22:36:53 <AnMaster> ehird, there was an official one too
22:37:01 <ehird> and it burned an install disk
22:37:16 <Deewiant> ehird: nlite wasn't always out
22:37:21 <AnMaster> ehird, skipping IE = breaking windows update back then
22:37:28 <ehird> There's a firefox plugin for it.
22:37:33 <ehird> AnMaster: More pertinently, it broke help.
22:37:38 <ehird> And, I think, explorer.exe.
22:37:39 <Deewiant> And I can't always be bothered to burn another disc just for an unattended install
22:37:42 <ehird> And everything else.
22:37:45 <Deewiant> I did use it at least once, though
22:37:54 <ehird> Microsoft weren't actually bullshitting when they said IE was integrated.
22:38:00 <ehird> They just used the HTML component in a fuckload of places.
22:38:01 <Deewiant> I always disable the help service
22:38:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, it does.
22:38:11 <ehird> Unless you're uber-leet and just click things to find out what they do.
22:38:22 <Deewiant> The help is useless 99% of the time anyway
22:38:32 <AnMaster> "ThinkPad Video Features(Intel GM45)" <-- huh?
22:38:39 <ehird> AnMaster: video card.
22:38:42 <ehird> Deewiant: That's cause Windows software sucks.
22:38:46 <oerjan> i think people who aren't lawyers shouldn't be allowed to accept EULAs and such things without passing a small test that they have understood it. this should nicely force the industry to simplify the stuff to something sane.
22:38:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Chinese company.
22:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but what is the "Features" bit there for
22:38:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Chinese company.
22:39:03 <Deewiant> oerjan: The test is often that you've scrolled down to the bottom
22:39:16 <ehird> Deewiant: It worked before we figured out how to drag scrollbars!
22:39:18 <AnMaster> ehird, the "lenovo update" thingy is in mixed English and Swedish
22:39:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe Windows 1!
22:40:06 <AnMaster> "please state which of these alternatives is true for this EULA"
22:40:10 <AnMaster> and provide three alternatives
22:40:26 <ehird> outlaw multi choice!
22:40:52 <AnMaster> oh god I hate updates starting an installer you have to click through
22:41:07 <ehird> Why are you updating Windows instead of wiping it?
22:41:19 <Deewiant> I was just wondering that myself
22:41:25 <AnMaster> ehird, for the bios update. You couldn't select it without selecting all the critical windows updates too
22:41:28 <Deewiant> If you're going to wipe it anyway
22:41:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Download it manually from the site…
22:41:49 * ehird whacks AnMaster with a cluebat
22:42:00 <AnMaster> ehird, have to find where though
22:42:10 <ehird> lenovo.com, biosmanufacturer.com
22:42:27 <ehird> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/product.do?doctypeind=9&template=%2Fproductselection%2Flandingpages%2FdownloadsDriversLandingPage.vm&sitestyle=lenovo
22:42:30 <ehird> Downloads and drivers.
22:44:30 <AnMaster> Select one of the following tasks:
22:44:52 <ehird> ( ) Update your mom
22:45:23 <Deewiant> What "huh", isn't that rather self-explanatory
22:45:32 <ehird> what the fuck is updating model number
22:46:08 <ehird> This only makes sense to you, Deewiant.
22:46:46 <AnMaster> also I didn't want universe to collapse
22:46:56 <GregorR> AnMaster agrees with ehird?
22:47:01 <GregorR> The universe is going to end!
22:47:07 <Deewiant> You know, the serial number in the BIOS
22:47:08 <ehird> it's happened like 30 times
22:47:13 <ehird> he just hasn't vigorously agreed yet
22:47:18 <ehird> Deewiant: "Update", not change.
22:47:22 <ehird> Also, why on earth would you want to?
22:47:24 <ehird> What purpose has that?
22:47:35 <Deewiant> http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=10482
22:47:37 <ehird> Also, why does it matter?
22:47:39 <Deewiant> There's a case where somebody needed it
22:47:47 <Deewiant> "I think it's definitely the IBM service's fault. They haven't entered the machine type number and the system unit serial number when they replaced the mobo. Call them, and they are going to fix in a few days. "
22:47:55 <ehird> Okay, so you understand it because YOU'VE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH IT.
22:48:07 <ehird> Then you're just insane.
22:48:24 <AnMaster> ehird, it might be related to that "make system younger"?
22:48:25 <Deewiant> Reading "update" as "change" is not really a humongous leap of logic
22:48:42 <ehird> Deewiant: it's a very awkward sentence
22:48:49 <ehird> AnMaster: No, that just applies anti-aging cream to the heatsink.
22:48:56 <ehird> *heatsinks, rather
22:49:07 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm a native speaker, QED :-P
22:49:39 <Deewiant> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/update
22:49:39 <GregorR> Nuh uh. I speak American. That's ENGLISH.
22:49:42 <AnMaster> ok bios rebooted itself a few times then booted as normal
22:49:47 <Deewiant> 2. Computers. to incorporate new or more accurate information in (a database, program, procedure, etc.).
22:50:01 <ehird> Deewiant: It was awkward. You cannot dispute something's awkwardness by citing a dictionary.
22:50:11 <ehird> It was so awkward, in fact, that we needed clarification to understand it.
22:50:22 <Deewiant> Retain usage of the word 'update' and make it less awkward
22:50:38 <ehird> No, that's a pointless exercise.
22:50:53 <oerjan> would making the system younger be updating or downdating, i wonder
22:50:55 <ehird> Here's how I would phrase it: "Fix our retarded incompetence that we bundled a fix to with a totally unrelated update"
22:51:29 <Deewiant> And they're not totally unrelated
22:51:53 <ehird> They're both to do with the BIOS. One's a routine upgrade, one's a stupid problem someone had once.
22:52:06 <ehird> AnMaster: that is not what makes it awkward
22:52:08 <ehird> it's the whole sentence
22:52:31 <Deewiant> That tool might easily be something admin-folks use all the time
22:52:52 <ehird> Great, internal tools taken as a mark of good UI design for external tools.
22:53:29 <Deewiant> They generally aren't meant for the UI-uneducated anyway
22:53:29 <ehird> this is going nowhere
22:53:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh really?
22:53:35 <oerjan> are aquatic aardvarks awkward?
22:53:38 <ehird> Then why is it bundled as a ROUTINE UPGRADE.
22:53:41 <GregorR> Why does this channel have such fekking stupid conversations?
22:53:43 <ehird> You know, for ALL USERS.
22:54:03 <Deewiant> Because somebody thought it was important but nobody cares about UI?
22:54:04 <GregorR> I don't, I come back six-hundred lines in and go "gee, it would be nice if this wasn't going on."
22:54:17 <Deewiant> I don't see how a silent channel is an improvement
22:54:50 * ehird is sure we could emulate usual argumentative structure with just blank messages
22:55:33 * Deewiant is sure that the structure is quite indistinguishable from the structure of pretty much any other conversation
22:55:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Just try it!
22:55:46 <GregorR> Here's what we should all do: Record an example sentence in our accent, then try to emulate each others' accents. We will all have a hearty laugh at how terrible we sound, and we won't be talking about this any more :P
22:55:50 <ehird> Imagine my messages, fill in words that fit the structure and speed,
22:55:52 <ehird> imagine a response
22:55:58 <ehird> and type a blank message in time.
22:56:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is wrong about talking about lenovo fuckups?
22:56:55 <ehird> I love inane conversations
22:56:58 <GregorR> Talking about the exact semantics of some stupid sentence used in a tool involved therein is stupid :P
22:57:00 <ehird> <GregorR> No you don't
22:57:26 <AnMaster> wait. a new user called "login with fingerprint" has been installed
22:57:44 <GregorR> Hello, my name is L. W. Fingerprint.
22:57:45 <ehird> AnMaster: if you click it, it'll ask for a fingerprint with their app
22:57:47 <ehird> and then switch user
22:57:53 <ehird> because you can't hook in to the login process
22:58:02 <ehird> AnMaster: so you can set it as auto user
22:58:05 <ehird> and you never have to say who you are
22:58:07 <ehird> just use your fingerprint
22:58:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you can actually. At the top of the screen when it first booted as a "please set up your fingerprint"
22:58:29 <ehird> not in that way at least
22:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you can provide new auth plugins under windows
22:58:58 <ehird> presumably this way is much esir
22:59:52 <fizzie> Hm, my hostname is just an IP right now. That's no good.
23:00:07 -!- fizzie has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:00:09 -!- fizzie has joined.
23:00:17 <ehird> **fizzie evolves into FIS@IRIS.ZEM.FI!**
23:00:35 <ehird> (Press A to continue)
23:00:54 <ehird> ((Gameboy music.))
23:00:56 <ehird> You are in a field.
23:01:03 <ehird> You are a person and you have pokemans.
23:01:12 <ehird> You can go in any direction.
23:01:14 <ehird> Apart from up and down.
23:01:22 <ehird> You can't go up and down. This game is two-dimensional.
23:01:35 <ehird> But you can't travel in time, either.
23:01:48 -!- fungot has joined.
23:02:05 <fizzie> Had to reboot momus, that's why it was gone. Sleeps now, night. ->
23:02:06 <ehird> There is more field with grass in different places.
23:02:10 <ehird> Someone looks at you.
23:02:18 <ehird> Now you must fight them.
23:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yeah "make system younger" seems to be the system checkpoint/restore thingy. Or something similar at least
23:05:26 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you fail
23:05:29 <oerjan> i merely quit a pokeman game
23:05:33 <ehird> oerjan: You eat the grass.
23:05:38 <ehird> It's super effective!
23:05:45 <ehird> You murder the guy.
23:05:48 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:05:50 <ehird> You are in a field.
23:05:58 <ehird> Quitting is disallowable.
23:06:31 <FireFly> You went from Pokémon to something more um
23:06:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Pokemans.
23:06:45 <ehird> FireFly: We are alas constrained to one-dimensional media of text.
23:06:56 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's an internetsism.
23:07:14 <ehird> My pokemans, let me show you them.
23:07:47 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/24/swedish_shortage/ ;; I thought this was, like, lesbians getting sperm out of the banks to swallow it or something before I read past the headline
23:08:00 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_M43ufegq8
23:08:04 <ehird> Or some radical man-haters raided a sperm bank and destroyed it
23:08:37 <AnMaster> the recovery discs says windows xp on them
23:08:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Downgrade disk?
23:08:48 <oerjan> Mars needs women, Sweden needs sperm.
23:09:10 <ehird> AnMaster: You should sue Lenovo to reclaim the Windows tax; there's a guy who did that to all major computer companies and actually got the money back.
23:09:19 <ehird> Because you can't buy a non-Windows machine from them
23:09:33 <ehird> AnMaster: i.e., the >$100 you paid to get Windows on it.
23:09:36 <ehird> without any other choice.
23:09:43 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you can from lenovo.... just not by any reseller
23:10:25 <ehird> You could get Dell to officially suck your dick, too, if it'd bag them £1bil.
23:10:36 <ehird> But that's not a service that Dell offers.
23:10:39 <ehird> (AT LEAST NOT YET)
23:10:44 <ehird> (THIS IS AN UNTAPPED MARKET DELL)
23:11:13 <ehird> My analogies are perfect.
23:11:30 <ehird> getting windows is like receiving oral sex
23:11:44 <ehird> can't love a windows user
23:11:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no I meant about "<ehird> My analogies are perfect."
23:12:06 <ehird> It was a joke, sheesh.
23:13:31 <ehird> A pokemans et you.
23:13:34 <ehird> YOU ARE INSIDE A STOMACH.
23:13:39 <ehird> You see no exist but out the butt.
23:13:42 <ehird> Acids begin to eat you.
23:14:06 <ehird> Your legs are gone.
23:14:31 <ehird> You are like unto a burger.
23:14:46 <ehird> How many hamfisted legacies are the part of parcels that must be accepted to gain entry?
23:14:53 <ehird> Your brain is meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellting.
23:15:23 <AnMaster> SQL server configuration manager is installed on this
23:15:25 <ehird> Pirates eat yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooou
23:15:28 <ehird> Oh that was just the aaaaaaaaaaacid.
23:15:31 <ehird> The stomach aaaaaaaaacid.
23:15:47 <ehird> You die and are pooped out.
23:15:51 <ehird> This answers all your questions about SQL Server.
23:16:02 <ehird> You are dead. You are in a field. You are a component of some poop.
23:16:58 <oerjan> (remember kids, always recycle)
23:17:21 <ehird> How your memories of cycling come back to you.
23:17:26 <ehird> You always rode as a child.
23:17:29 <ehird> You realise you are dead.
23:17:34 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *CRASH*
23:17:36 <ehird> You are in a town.
23:17:43 <ehird> You are no longer a component of some poop.
23:18:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:18:45 <ehird> Floatatious thuogh you meay be, careless inaction costs live!
23:19:03 <oerjan> i take a job as a ghost writer
23:19:12 <ehird> You become a ghost writer
23:19:19 <ehird> They go oooo and fly away
23:19:24 <ehird> You are in a mansion with your newfound riches
23:20:10 <ehird> You go back to your old haunts and cycle.
23:20:19 <ehird> History repeats you are in a town youare no longer a component of some poop acct
23:20:43 <ehird> Did you mean to say that the thing that you said was what you said that was
23:20:49 <ehird> (augur: parse that bitch)
23:21:10 <ehird> 23:20 ehird: Did you mean to say that the thing that you said was what you said that was
23:21:17 <oerjan> i establish a jewish world order
23:21:26 <ehird> Bronchitis overtakes you
23:21:35 <ehird> A Jewish/Bronchitic World Order is established.
23:21:38 <oerjan> (carefully hiding the fact i'm not jewish)
23:21:38 <ehird> You feel vaguely reptilian.
23:21:39 <augur> ehird, do you really want me to parse that?
23:21:51 <augur> ok give me a moment
23:22:52 <oerjan> i start a religion based on the world being a large turtle
23:23:06 <ehird> You aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaare that that you act
23:24:06 <oerjan> i successfully pass a law against acting. then i retire.
23:24:46 <AnMaster> what has the last option got to do with network?
23:24:59 <AnMaster> ehird, find out how they could mess it up like this
23:25:25 <AnMaster> wait the help for it is even weirder
23:26:19 <AnMaster> "[Disabled] May be needed for some older networked SW (e.g. previous versions of RDM) -- see SW document\n-ation. Could slow hard drive performance when booted to the network."
23:26:34 <AnMaster> the \n there was just to illustrate the failed newline
23:27:24 -!- Pthing has joined.
23:27:57 <pikhq> Well, my roommate is spending half of his Google SoC paycheck on a new computer...
23:28:16 <pikhq> That's going to be some crazy computer.
23:29:05 <AnMaster> might be good to make sure it is good
23:36:47 <ehird> pikhq: how much is it
23:37:10 <ehird> pikhq: That's not a lot for a computer...
23:37:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood's new rig + GTX 285 = >$2000
23:38:03 <ehird> So... 2.93ghz core i7, 12gb ddr3, 80gb Intel X25-M SSD, 1TB storage, GTX 285
23:38:05 <pikhq> That's sufficient to get 44G of RAM and 16 CPUs if you're willing to not get much else. :P
23:38:08 <ehird> Sure, absolutely kick-ass.
23:38:18 <ehird> Not like the most amazing gaming rig ever.
23:38:30 <ehird> pikhq: You can get 24GB of DDR3 for about $900
23:38:34 <pikhq> I want to know what makes you think that $2000 isn't much.
23:38:41 <ehird> It is a lot of money.
23:38:45 <ehird> It is not a lot of money for a high-end computer.
23:39:00 <pikhq> Apparently your idea of "high-end" and mine are in conflict.
23:39:22 <ehird> pikhq: that's because you aren't on a high-end machine, presumably
23:39:28 <ehird> Everything above you tends to look high-end
23:39:29 <pikhq> Note: high-end does not generally mean something that you'd expect from Cray.
23:39:40 <pikhq> Unless you're a business.
23:39:50 <ehird> Uhh, $2000 won't begin to buy a tenth of the power of a Cray apart from that shitty "entry-level" one.
23:40:14 <pikhq> $2000 gets you a rather insane computer for a normal person to have, though.
23:40:22 <ehird> I'm just saying that $2,000 gets you a nice high-end rig; it doesn't get you a gigantic monster of computing rampage.
23:40:27 <ehird> pikhq: Is he a gamer?
23:40:38 <pikhq> Yes, but mostly a console gamer.
23:40:53 <ehird> I mean, a little below $1,000 is what you'd expect a PC gamer to usually pay for a machine that can play the latest games decently.
23:41:02 <pikhq> (read: owns all the consoles, and all of the games worth having)
23:41:26 <ehird> pikhq: $2,000 isn't even enough to get 2x Nehalem, I don't think
23:41:34 <ehird> or at least, maybe the lowest end Nehalem
23:41:39 <ehird> (I'm talking about just the processors)
23:41:52 <ehird> pikhq: one 3.2ghz nehalem xeon costs $1,500
23:41:53 <pikhq> The middle-range is $600 or so.
23:42:00 <ehird> pikhq: dood, that's core i7
23:42:06 <ehird> the xeons, which let you go 2x processor, are more expensive
23:42:13 <ehird> (they also support ecc)
23:42:52 <pikhq> Dude, the i7s are going for $300-400 now.
23:42:58 <ehird> pikhq: Wow, where?
23:43:02 <ehird> Certainly not on newegg, the cheapest place.
23:43:13 <ehird> I'd love to bag an i7 for that price.
23:43:15 <pikhq> And see if I need foot in mouth.
23:43:28 <ehird> pikhq: you're right
23:43:32 <ehird> i7 920 for $279.99
23:43:45 <ehird> and 975 for $999.999
23:43:47 <pikhq> The mid-range Xeons are $600-ish.
23:43:57 <ehird> those are some killer prices, especially the 920
23:44:08 <ehird> pikhq: let's hope he isn't stupid and goes for core 2
23:44:14 <ehird> that'd just be a royal waste of money
23:44:24 <pikhq> We were vaguely debating getting 4 Opterons, though. :P
23:44:36 <ehird> the hidden cost of AMD is in the power bill :-P
23:44:45 <ehird> (and heck, the entropy from the heat!)
23:44:47 <pikhq> College pays for the power bill.
23:45:06 <ehird> pikhq: So, Summer of Code pays $4k?
23:45:10 <ehird> Doing what exactly?
23:45:30 <pikhq> Also, it turns out the Opterons that let you get 4 CPUs in a system are about the same price as Nehalem Xeons.
23:45:40 <ehird> Yes, AMD are cheap.
23:45:43 <ehird> But Intel are better. :P
23:46:05 <pikhq> ehird: Stupid game programming, in this case.
23:46:16 <pikhq> He hates it, and getting a new computer out of it would make him feel much better.
23:46:17 <ehird> pikhq: That sounds suspiciously easy.
23:46:39 <pikhq> ehird: Poorly documented and undesigned project.
23:46:40 <ehird> You have to be a uni student, though, don't you. :-)
23:46:44 <pikhq> With a stupid mentor.
23:46:56 <ehird> pikhq: yeah but it's a few months of tedious, hateful coding for $4k
23:46:59 <ehird> that's a good deal in my book
23:47:22 <pikhq> The idea is for it to be a few months of wonderful coding.
23:47:30 <pikhq> This specific project is made of suck, however.
23:47:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:48:04 <ehird> huh gsoc actually comes out to like $2/hour
23:48:08 <ehird> it sounds nicer in the bulk figure :D
23:48:33 <pikhq> It lasts two or three months...
23:48:57 <FireFly> Well, you don't work every hour, do you?
23:48:58 <pikhq> ... Nobody works 24 hours a day...
23:49:21 <FireFly> At least in Sweden, I think we have 40 hours per week
23:49:34 <ehird> pikhq: how much do you do in gsoc?
23:49:40 <ehird> like 6-7hr/day or sth?
23:49:59 <pikhq> ehird: As much as is necessary to do what you signed up to do.
23:50:20 <pikhq> Depends on the project and the person.
23:50:49 <pikhq> Nominally, 8. Really, 3.
23:51:14 <ehird> comes out to roughly $15/hr
23:51:34 <ehird> quite a sweet deal your roommate got there
23:52:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:52:18 <ehird> wonder if i could convince google i'm a uni student -in spirit-
23:52:32 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Highly_Open_Participation_Contest
23:52:46 <ehird> Prizes offered by Google include a contest t-shirt and participation certificate for completing at least one task and US$100 for every three tasks completed to a maximum of US$500 (for fifteen completed tasks)
23:52:58 <ehird> i don't think 15 tasks is worth just $500
23:53:03 -!- Nowicjusz has joined.
23:53:12 <pikhq> "Document the following functions".
23:53:14 <ehird> rather try my chances at confusing google as to my studenthood :D
23:53:22 <ehird> Nowicjusz: who're you.
23:54:27 <ehird> what doth broughtify you here
23:55:28 <ehird> xeno proved it you know
23:56:19 <ehird> Nowicjusz: we're about programming not magick fyi.
23:57:47 <FireFly> Well, at least now we're 42 people in here
23:57:54 <ehird> Nowicjusz: strange programming languages
00:01:35 <ehird> I know I'm a piece of work, but the Hows effect?
00:01:37 <ehird> It's a useful model!
00:01:43 <Nowicjusz> sorry for my english it not very well
00:02:06 <ehird> Nowicjusz: ever heard of Brainfuck?
00:04:12 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck <-- Concludes it
00:04:35 <ehird> Nowicjusz: Czy rozumiesz to?
00:05:33 <ehird> Nowicjusz: Hey, I guess Google Translate jest przydatny dla czegoś. Jakkolwiek, ten kanał jest dziwny komputer języków programowania.
00:05:37 * FireFly is too lazy to google translate
00:05:48 <FireFly> Kanal, is that channel? ;o
00:06:11 <oerjan> `translateto pl Does this thing work?
00:06:28 <ehird> HackEgo: You have the Unicode support of a horse.
00:07:17 <oerjan> `translateto pl A man, a plan, a canal: Panama!
00:07:17 <ehird> Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza.
00:07:18 <HackEgo> Czowiek, plan, kanau: Panama!
00:07:29 <ehird> translate Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza.
00:07:31 <ehird> `translate Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza.
00:07:32 <HackEgo> Bravo. Now, enough so that all rozmawia ... using this interpreter.
00:07:40 <ehird> "Bravo. Now, enough for everyone to talk with an interpreter. "
00:07:58 <ehird> GregorR: Będzie ładniejszy z podobnych, mniej Unicode tardness.
00:08:00 <GregorR> I wish I knew why the Unicode is borkleborked, but the server is honestly not sending me valid UTF-8.
00:08:20 <FireFly> I wouldn't have thought that the word for "channel" would be the same in polish and swedish
00:08:29 <ehird> GregorR: Google isn't necessarily in UTF-8.
00:08:39 <ehird> FireFly: Szwedzki jest rzeczywiście polski ... W ukrycia!
00:08:45 <GregorR> ehird: Super. But I have no idea what it IS in, nor how to convince to BE in UTF-8.
00:08:55 <ehird> GregorR: http://chardet.feedparser.org/
00:09:01 <FireFly> `translate Szwedzki jest rzeczywiście polski ... W ukrycia!
00:09:02 <HackEgo> Swedish is actually> of Polish ... In disguise!
00:09:03 -!- augur has joined.
00:09:22 <augur> ehird sorry for the delay
00:09:24 <augur> we had a power outage
00:09:26 <augur> [CP [C [T did] C] [TP [DP you_i] [T' <did> [vP <you> [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP <mean> [CP C [TP [DP <you>] [T to] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v] [VP <say> [CP [C that] [TP [DP [D the] [NP [N thing] [CP [C that] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP <say> [DP <thing>]]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP <be> [DP D [NP INDEF [CP [C what] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP <say> [CP C
00:09:31 <augur> [TP [DP that] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP <be> [DP <INDEF>]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
00:09:44 <GregorR> ehird: Hmmm ... so now how do I fix it :P
00:09:53 <FireFly> That concludes esolangs, by the way ^
00:09:56 <ehird> GregorR: Well, what character encoding did it tell you?
00:10:01 <FireFly> Or, how esolangs could look
00:10:15 <ehird> Translators daje mi poczucie znajomości języka.
00:10:21 <augur> http://ironcreek.net/phpsyntaxtree/
00:10:28 <augur> use that to draw the tree, ehird.
00:10:52 <ehird> augur: I'm surprised it is even syntactically meaningful
00:10:58 <ehird> It ends with an... unconsumed argument.
00:11:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That's not Lisp. That's an English parse tree.
00:11:15 <augur> er, there should be a [T' between [DP <you>] and [T to]
00:11:19 <pikhq> It does look mighty sexp-esque, though.
00:11:27 <augur> and an extra ] at the end
00:11:33 <oerjan> pikhq: Whooshy whoosh whooshy
00:11:37 <augur> ehird: unconsumed argument?
00:11:45 <ehird> augur: Like, "The."
00:11:47 <ehird> You need something after.
00:11:50 <ehird> "I hit it because it"
00:12:04 -!- ehird has set topic: A odrobina inteligencji będzie założyć! Jeśli jesteś w samochodzie stanowiska kolei A. Proszę inaczej kolei do B. Jeśli C, AB 2 1. Dziękujemy za Twój stronie. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:13:02 <augur> the relative clauses are actually probably wrong. they should be attached to the DP nodes
00:13:11 <Nowicjusz> its late for me see you soon ehird
00:13:12 <GregorR> ehird: It just told me UTF-8 >_<
00:13:35 <ehird> GregorR: Did you try it on a page with actual unicode chars?
00:13:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:13:39 <ehird> As in, translating to, say, Polish.
00:13:44 <ehird> Otherwise it'll just see ASCII and say UTF-8.
00:13:55 <pikhq> ... Only 1/2 of Americans are aware that Neil Armstrong was the first man to walk on the moon.
00:13:57 <GregorR> `translateto ko Hello, world!
00:14:05 -!- Nowicjusz has left (?).
00:14:07 <ehird> GregorR: Don't copy from your IRC client, duh!
00:14:09 <pikhq> I FUCKING HATE THIS COUNTRY AND WOULD LIKE TO STAB PEOPLE WITHIN IT
00:14:13 <ehird> It'll encode to UTF-8 for its display.
00:14:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:14:59 <oerjan> pikhq: i take it you don't know about martin luther king, then
00:15:11 <ehird> He walked on the moon indeed...?
00:15:12 <Sgeo> Homophobe repellant: {1, 1, 1, 1, 1}
00:15:22 <ehird> Sgeo: Har har har.
00:15:22 <GregorR> {'confidence': 0.98999999999999999, 'encoding': 'EUC-KR'}
00:15:29 <pikhq> oerjan: I do, in fact, know about Martin Luther King Jr. I also know about Martin Luther.
00:15:30 <GregorR> OK, EUC-KR for Korean, no great surprise.
00:15:43 <ehird> GregorR: Oh lawdy, does it have varying encodings?
00:15:46 <oerjan> pikhq: you might have them confused.
00:16:04 <ehird> GregorR: Try French or something.
00:16:07 <pikhq> oerjan: What makes you think that?
00:16:22 <ehird> oerjan: {1,1,1,1,1} is homogeneous
00:16:24 <augur> ehird: [CP [C [T did] C] [TP [DP you_i] [T' <did> [vP <you> [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP <mean> [CP C [TP [DP <you>] [T' [T to] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v] [VP <say> [CP [C that] [TP [DP [DP [D the] [NP [N thing]]] [CP [C that] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP <say> [DP <the thing>]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP <be> [DP [DP INDEF] [CP [C what] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.ps
00:16:26 <augur> t] [VP <say> [CP C [TP [DP that] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [<be>] [<INDEF>]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
00:16:28 <oerjan> pikhq: your violent desires
00:16:29 <augur> there. that is more correct
00:16:47 <pikhq> oerjan: I do not tolerate fools well.
00:17:02 <oerjan> ehird: i find that a very weak connection
00:17:14 <pikhq> Nor am I Martin Luther King, Jr.
00:17:15 <ehird> oerjan: thus "har har har".
00:17:26 <pikhq> I am a man who dislikes stupidity, and goes over-the-top on IRC.
00:17:27 <GregorR> ehird: {'confidence': 0.75502604851710919, 'encoding': 'ISO-8859-2'}
00:17:37 <GregorR> So, I can get the encoding OKishly, but I need to fix it :(
00:17:38 <ehird> GregorR: Unsurprising.
00:17:44 <ehird> GregorR: shell out to python
00:17:57 <ehird> you can do it for any encoding
00:17:59 <ehird> GregorR: like this:
00:18:03 <Sgeo> oerjan, well, also, it's an array, so the types are homogenous
00:18:15 <augur> ehird, i can also turn that into a full GB x-bar tree
00:18:31 <ehird> import chardet; x = sys.stdin.read(); sys.stdout.write(x.decode(chardet.detect(x)['encoding']).encode('UTF-8'))
00:18:42 <GregorR> That's more or less what I was looking for.
00:19:17 <ehird> add "import sys; " to the start.
00:20:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Homologically equivalent").
00:20:22 <ehird> GregorR: In fact, you should just filter all egobot things through it :P
00:20:29 <ehird> Death to non-UTF8!
00:22:31 <GregorR> Heh, forgot to install chardet on the host :P
00:22:41 <GregorR> Was wondering why it wasn't working.
00:23:40 <pikhq> Why in the world is Google serving non-UTF-8?
00:24:02 <ehird> pikhq: i guess cause google translate is mainly croudsourced?
00:24:05 <ehird> also bandwidth maybe
00:24:08 <Sgeo> "In rural areas, couples are allowed a second child if their first is a girl. "
00:24:19 <Sgeo> Way to worsen the balance, China
00:24:49 <GregorR> `translateto ko Hello, world!
00:25:04 <GregorR> Still doesn't translate back, and I'm not sure why :(
00:25:10 <pikhq> China is now dealing with, well, a demographics timebomb.
00:25:17 <HackEgo> ì • ë ... • í • ~ ì "¸ ìš", ì "¸ ê ³"!
00:26:41 <GregorR> Weirder still, the used URL, http://translate.google.com/translate_t?text=%ec%95%88%eb%85%95%ed%95%98%ec%84%b8%ec%9a%94%2c%20%ec%84%b8%ea%b3%84%21&sl=auto&tl=en , works fine?
00:27:08 <ehird> GregorR: because translate and translateto are separate
00:27:11 <ehird> because you reverted in a huff
00:27:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ translateto "en $1"
00:27:20 <augur> in full GB-style X-Bar form:
00:27:21 <augur> [CP [C' [C [T did] C] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' <did> [vP <you> [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP [V' <mean> [CP [C' C [TP <you> [T' [T to] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v] [VP [V' <say> [CP [C' [C that] [TP [DP [DP [D' [D the] [NP [N' [N thing]]]]] [CP [C' [C that] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [V' [<say>] [<the-thing>]]]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [V' <be> [DP [DP [D' [D INDEF]]] [CP [C' [C
00:27:24 <augur> what] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [V' <say> [CP [C' C [TP [DP [D' [D that]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [V' [<be>] [<INDEF>]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
00:27:37 <ehird> augur: it has to be noted i'm not really fussed
00:27:58 <augur> i dont speak confused little boy :P
00:31:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:31:53 <AnMaster> "Lenovo recommends you burn a restore DVD"
00:32:00 <AnMaster> why didn't they just include one?
00:32:08 <AnMaster> instead of just a repair partition on the disk
00:32:21 <pikhq> Yes, because 2¢ is a lot of money.
00:32:36 <ehird> it is when you're a chinese computer company :)
00:32:46 <ehird> also they have to figure out how to do it and the like
00:33:13 <AnMaster> ehird, now they have to figure out how to create a dvd burning app
00:33:36 <ehird> GregorR: ha, i accidentally furthered the oppression of a nation!
00:33:50 <pikhq> GregorR: Taiwan lays claim to all of China, not just the Taiwan administrative region.
00:33:58 <GregorR> pikhq: No, they don't any more.
00:34:02 <ehird> GregorR: Dude, you might smash it.
00:34:03 <GregorR> pikhq: Not for a long time.
00:34:04 <Sgeo> I just gave you my OpenID, why do you want me to make a password for you
00:34:07 <ehird> Fuck plastic cups or something
00:35:22 <AnMaster> seems my drive is a DVD-RAM one
00:35:33 <ehird> AnMaster: DVD-...RAM?
00:35:39 <AnMaster> Lenovo told me not to use DVD RAM for the backup cds though
00:35:55 <pikhq> GregorR: Map of the Republic of China (AKA Taiwan, AKA Chinese Taipei, AKA ...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.png
00:35:59 <ehird> "DVD-RAM (DVD–Random Access Memory)"
00:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc apple's superdrives can handle it too
00:36:06 <ehird> unless you have tons and tons of lasers
00:36:11 <ehird> all focused at different points
00:36:19 <AnMaster> ehird, IT IS NOT RAM AS IN RANDOM ACCESS? KAY?
00:36:21 <pikhq> Taiwan makes fucking huge claims.
00:36:26 <ehird> AnMaster: ""DVD-RAM (DVD–Random Access Memory)""
00:36:40 <ehird> …which is impossible.
00:36:46 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, read the article
00:36:56 <GregorR> pikhq: This would appear to be the legal claims they've made ever since they were ousted.
00:36:59 <ehird> It's not random access.
00:37:09 <GregorR> pikhq: Nowadays they're basically just trying to get people to accept that Taiwan is not part of China.
00:37:15 <pikhq> No, that's their current claims.
00:38:25 <pikhq> It has never renounced any claims over mainland China or over Mongolia...
00:38:36 <GregorR> Although the administration of pro-independence President Chen Shui-bian (2000–2008) did not actively claim sovereignty over all of China, the national boundaries of the ROC have not been redrawn and its outstanding territorial claims from the late 1940s have not been revised.
00:38:41 <GregorR> Bleh, screwy new president apparently.
00:41:02 <pikhq> China v. Taiwan is screwy.
00:41:15 <pikhq> Because somehow, Taiwan declaring independence would result in a war.
00:41:27 <pikhq> ... But Taiwan claiming all of China would not...
00:41:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, you found out now about DVD-RAM I guess?
00:45:22 <AnMaster> it wants three dvds then fills each with about 1 GB
00:45:34 <ehird> I like how you've had the laptop for many, many hours and haven't actually got around to USING it.
00:46:26 <ehird> You know what there's a market for?
00:46:46 <ehird> Computer makers that ship sturdy, standard systems without cutting corners for a non-cost-cutting price.
00:46:54 <ehird> Without any custom software or manuals or anything.
00:47:11 <ehird> Heavens only know why there isn't such a company.
00:47:20 <ehird> Wow, that sentence was awkward.
00:47:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and with any cds needed already generated
00:47:41 <ehird> It's stock everything.
00:47:44 <ehird> They give you the OS CD.
00:47:45 <pikhq> In other words, someone that ships what you could get from Newegg, only already put together.
00:47:45 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I ran memtest on it
00:47:56 <ehird> Oh, and they should memtest before shipping. :-P
00:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, just wanted to be sure early on the memory had no issues
00:48:20 <ehird> Add a bit of craftsmanship to picking the components, and perhaps their own, decent case.
00:48:42 <ehird> (Craftsmanship including, e.g. "replace the heatsink/fans with something bigger, better and quieter" and the like)
00:48:51 <ehird> It's silly that it doesn't exist.
00:49:03 <ehird> Especially for laptops.
00:49:13 <ehird> You can't newegg yourself a DIY laptop.
00:49:53 <AnMaster> it's a bit less spacious really
00:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Chassis, screen and also extreme thinness is required.
00:49:56 <ehird> Custom motherboards.
00:50:04 <ehird> Also, portable power.
00:50:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the power adapter is mostly external
00:50:24 <ehird> Laptops are truly hard things to make, and a marvel of engineering; how come you can't get one that's made right?
00:50:26 <ehird> AnMaster: battery etc
00:50:39 <AnMaster> you can build that for normal computers
00:50:50 <AnMaster> or you could DYI that too in plywood
00:50:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You can buy them, but they kind of suck and also are hard to get a hold of.
00:50:56 <ehird> I mean, DIYing a desktop?
00:51:00 <ehird> Get a case. Attach the mobo.
00:51:04 <ehird> Put in the CPU, apply heatsink and fan.
00:51:07 <ehird> Put in the RAM, harddrives.
00:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yep. I meant getting a laptop case and such
00:51:11 <ehird> Attach powersupply.
00:51:18 <ehird> A laptop is much more involved.
00:51:24 <AnMaster> why not make the mobos standard sizes like they are for desktops
00:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: too big!
00:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well not the *same* standard sizes of course
00:51:56 <ehird> they're too square
00:51:58 <ehird> it just isn't practical
00:52:00 <ehird> AnMaster: also wifi antenna
00:52:08 <ehird> the antenna is wound around the whole case?
00:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it in the monitor
00:52:12 <ehird> to get the best signal
00:52:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it was on my old ibook!
00:52:23 <ehird> you have a sprawling wifi snake in your laptop, filling all the gaps
00:53:07 <ehird> the most accurate of all sources
00:53:15 <ehird> AnMaster: also, don't you have a screwdriver? check ;-)
00:54:16 <ehird> have you ever used a computer warranty? also, you know that it'd be basically impossible to check whether you've opened it?
00:55:05 <AnMaster> it is "extracting files" still... for the recovery cd thingy
00:55:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I used computer warranty once
00:55:47 <ehird> but not before they checked the self-detonating bulb of didtheyopenthislaptopupness!
00:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also it isn't since there is a "warranty void if removed" label over one of the screwholes
00:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, won't get it loose easily. I know how they work
00:56:25 <AnMaster> they break rather than come away easily
00:56:30 <ehird> http://ilovetypography.com/img/2009/02/kern-iphone.jpg ← <3
00:56:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> but not before they checked the self-detonating bulb of didtheyopenthislaptopupness! <-- actually that time it was on a desktop
00:58:19 <ehird> as i said, feigned
00:59:36 <AnMaster> 5400 and 7200 seems like very odd choices for RPM
01:01:21 <ehird> motor speeds i guess
01:01:33 <ehird> i.e. this motor speed runs this diameter platter at N rpm
01:01:39 <AnMaster> maybe those speeds are cheaper and masproduced?
01:01:39 <ehird> and that motor speed is something saner
01:02:15 <AnMaster> the lenovo comes with three partitions
01:02:23 <AnMaster> one is C: the other ones are weird ones
01:02:37 <ehird> it sounds like lenovo made thinkpads kind of crappy.
01:02:46 <AnMaster> called Q: Lenovo and S: SERVICE003
01:03:18 <AnMaster> ehird, these are recovery partitions thingies
01:03:28 <AnMaster> not sure what exactly is the point of two separate ones
01:03:31 <ehird> I bloody hate recovery crap
01:03:38 <ehird> Just gimme the OS disk and tell users to back up
01:03:45 <ehird> (persuasively, of course.)
01:03:47 <AnMaster> Q: This is for recovery, click here to create a recovery disk
01:04:05 <AnMaster> S: This is required to boot windows. Please don't change anything
01:04:14 <AnMaster> (the messages are longer, abridged versions)
01:07:28 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems S: is for the "preboot area" which is some sort of hardware test thingy you can access during boot
01:07:50 <ehird> kill it! kill it with fire!
01:08:01 <AnMaster> it takes just a few hundred MB
01:08:10 <AnMaster> which is quite a lot for that indeed
01:08:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it will break the bootloader. They don't use the standard windows one
01:08:39 <AnMaster> once I got the restore dvds burned
01:08:58 <ehird> i thought you were wiping windows anyhoo
01:09:13 <pikhq> ... They don't use the standard Windows bootloader?
01:09:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Kill it! Kill it with fire!
01:09:50 <AnMaster> I mounted the recover dvd 1 thingy
01:10:01 <AnMaster> python24 recovery swwork utils
01:10:08 <AnMaster> arvid@tux /mnt/cdrom/preboot $ ls
01:10:16 <AnMaster> damn copy paste error destroying the effect
01:10:57 <AnMaster> anyway: http://pastebin.ca/1506371
01:13:12 <ehird> Windows poop edition.
01:13:22 <ehird> But really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Preinstallation_Environment
01:17:45 <AnMaster> ehird, can it run normal windows software?
01:18:16 <ehird> A subset, I guess.
01:18:20 <ehird> See the screenshot.
01:20:53 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png ^^
01:21:34 <ehird> GregorR: Schedule+, ey? Or should I say... CRON?
01:22:07 <ehird> From that screenshot.
01:22:17 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, but you think that just because it's in that screenshot means I use it? :P
01:22:18 <ehird> Schedule+ runs a program at a given time, IIRC.
01:22:21 <ehird> Or at least, that's one feature.
01:22:26 <ehird> GregorR: I was just juxtaposing with the bash :P
01:22:40 <ehird> GregorR: Can you run Windows 95 explorer.exe on that?
01:22:47 <ehird> You could have a taskbar with the lean, mean 3.11 kernel!
01:22:53 <GregorR> Actually, no, probably not.
01:23:09 <GregorR> The thing about NT 3.51 is that it has nearly everything about Win32 EXCEPT that it has no registry.
01:23:19 <GregorR> So things written exclusively for Windows don't work, but things ported to Windows do.
01:23:22 <ehird> GregorR: I'm sure you could write a registryd.exe :-
01:23:39 <ehird> there's nothing wrong with a registry, AnMaster. it just so happens that windows has two
01:23:46 <ehird> and the other has no name
01:24:07 <ehird> if it was the only one that'd be fine
01:24:10 <ehird> it's having two that sucks
01:24:26 <AnMaster> the other one is stored on the first
01:24:40 <AnMaster> c:\windows\system32\config\ iirc
01:24:57 <ehird> where else would it go
01:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, on a separate partition with it's own registry file system?
01:25:21 <ehird> Those obviously don't exist
01:25:24 <ehird> so I don't see why it's surprising
01:25:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the file system would be just the registry file
01:26:35 <ehird> as anyone who's ever looked at partitioning knows
01:26:38 <ehird> so it's obviously on the partition
01:26:57 <AnMaster> ehird, make the CMOS very big and store it there?
01:27:23 <ehird> Besides, wiping a Windows partition and reinstalling it wipes the registry too :P
01:28:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just suggesting future "improvements" to get rid of it being on the partition :(
01:33:33 <AnMaster> ehird, use non-volatile RAM and store it there?
01:33:46 <ehird> Non-volatile RAM = SSD
01:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well.. non-volatile ram can be magnetic ram too
01:34:12 <AnMaster> but that would have the in memory format
01:34:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you still access it like a filesystem right
01:34:44 <AnMaster> not by reading locations in RAM
01:34:50 <Sgeo> o.O, ehird and I reply to the same person on Reddit, barely even noticed
01:34:53 <ehird> what's the difference
01:35:00 <ehird> just use dd on the block device
01:35:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant something you would use the instruction "mov" to write to for example
01:35:08 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/94bqc/oh_mr_dawkinsthats_cold/c0bdodr
01:35:28 <ehird> Your reply sucks, mine doesn't :-P
01:35:43 <ehird> [[Unfortunately, I find that the format of Q&A sessions following a lecture leave very little room for real discussion. It's also my personal belief that Dawkins is a very "hard-line" atheist and doesn't want to give this man's question any validity by justifying it with a response any more in-depth than, "Sorry, I know it matters to you, but it's still crap."]]
01:35:51 <ehird> — as opposed to "Aw, you're delusional. That's okay! Fluffy bunnies."
01:35:55 <ehird> (I know that's not yours)
01:35:59 <ehird> (I just saw it now)
01:40:24 * AnMaster checks if the recovery cd works... yep
01:40:29 <AnMaster> right time to install linux over it all
01:41:13 <pikhq> And it took you how many hours?
01:41:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, which I ran while I was eating
01:41:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, burning recovery dvds? an hour maybe?
01:42:20 <pikhq> So, about as much time as I spend on a Gentoo install.
01:42:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, and playing around with vista to check how shitty it was
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01:50:09 <AnMaster> for partitioning: http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page
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02:20:24 * GregorR switched to XFCE recently.
02:21:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: do realize i will need you to either tell me you've listened to it, or tell my you won't. i do not need comments on the content, but i need my messages to go through.
02:21:54 <oklopol> also i'm content with you not actually listening to it, as long as you consistently lie you have.
02:24:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, right... will listen to it in a sec
02:25:04 <oklopol> no rush. but yeah do it right away.
02:25:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, fine. But rather bad microphone?
02:25:46 <GregorR> I shall now attempt to make a native winelf compiler on winelf.
02:25:49 <AnMaster> and just a blur at the end right?
02:26:02 <GregorR> Maybe I should make macelf ...
02:26:05 <oklopol> i can hear most of the notes in the end too
02:26:29 <GregorR> It's an environment for making ELF executables for Windows.
02:26:54 <GregorR> No, the whole environment serves no purpose whatsoever.
02:27:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm just so surprised
02:27:12 <GregorR> Yes, I have an ELF loader for Windows.
02:27:22 <GregorR> And a patch to GCC that allows it to create valid ELF binaries.
02:27:35 <AnMaster> how does it hook into the windows system
02:27:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, can it produce *.so too? or just *.a libraries?
02:28:16 <GregorR> It doesn't hook in to Windows in any meaningful way. You have to run the binaries like elfload.exe someELF
02:28:42 <GregorR> You can dynaload both .so's and .dll's.
02:28:54 <GregorR> Although .dll's still have all the limitations .dll's have of course :P
02:29:26 <pikhq> GregorR: That's pretty awesome.
02:29:36 <GregorR> I have no TLS support, no.
02:29:40 <GregorR> Not sure how to do that on Windows.
02:29:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: no, definitely not blur, at least when played with my computer's speaker; but anyway, not important
02:30:11 <oklopol> i play more notes a second than it takes pics a second
02:30:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, need a better camera :P
02:30:40 <AnMaster> I want crystal clear pro recording sound next time
02:30:44 <pikhq> GregorR: You could totally use that as the basis for UNIX-on-Windows.
02:30:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, what song was it btw?
02:31:00 <oklopol> something i composed like 5 years ago
02:31:10 <oklopol> it's actually longer, but i only play that part fast
02:31:20 <GregorR> Just a sec, I'm sticking it on codu.org ... had it on berlios.de
02:31:44 <pikhq> I will totally check that out once I get this XP VM installed.
02:32:27 <pikhq> GregorR: I assume that you have library versioning.
02:32:45 <GregorR> pikhq: Patches accepted ;)
02:32:54 <pikhq> Windows needs it so badly. So very badly.
02:33:31 <GregorR> http://codu.org/projects/winelf/
02:34:06 <GregorR> (I'm still mid-push, so wait a tick :P )
02:38:40 <GregorR> pikhq: You want the elfload directory, btw.
02:38:48 <GregorR> (elfload is portable, btw)
02:39:03 <GregorR> (works on Linux, but can't load Linux ELFs ... trust me, it does work though :P )
02:42:16 <GregorR> It can load statically-compiled Linux ELFs, it only can't load normal ones because they depend on libc, and libc depends on ld.so >_>
02:47:21 <pikhq> You should totally make a Cygwin-alike using this. ;p
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02:49:20 <pikhq> Hmm. libhost_ means... Yes, you could build a Cygwin userspace with it, depending only on Cygwin.
02:49:32 <pikhq> (with some effort)
02:49:44 <GregorR> ... nearly all you need is to elfimplib cygwin1.dll
02:49:47 <pikhq> (like making exec use elfload)
02:49:58 <GregorR> Yeah, that's a problem >_>
02:50:17 <pikhq> But Cygwin is GPL'd. ;)
02:50:20 <GregorR> The main problem is that I have /no/ idea which functions in the various libraries I've collectively called libc are capable of calling functions.
02:50:24 <pikhq> So, it's definitely doable.
02:50:52 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure in Cygwin, it all goes through cygwin1.dll.
02:51:26 <GregorR> I was referring to solving the same problem for what I have right now.
02:51:26 <pikhq> That was a weird statement.
02:51:45 <pikhq> That would be a royal bitch.
02:52:24 <GregorR> The main reason I want to solve it is so that when I compile GCC, it'll actually work ;)
02:53:45 <pikhq> Perfectly good thing to want to solve.
02:54:43 <pikhq> Hmm. You could probably get ReactOS to actually use WinELF for its POSIX subsystem...
02:55:12 <GregorR> I've never tried it on ReactOS :P
02:55:17 <oklopol> `translate everything to japanese
02:55:18 <GregorR> In fact, I've never tried it on Vista >_>
02:55:19 <GregorR> I wouldn't be surprised if it failed utterly there.
02:55:51 <GregorR> Works on wine, works on Windows XP.
02:56:25 <pikhq> Then it should work on ReactOS.
02:56:37 <GregorR> Anybody got Vista somewhere?
02:56:39 <pikhq> Most of the ReactOS userspace is WINE code.
02:56:52 <oklopol> not that that's useful to you
02:56:53 <pikhq> No, but you should be able to obtain Server 2008 for free.
02:57:02 <pikhq> (since you're a student.
02:57:06 <AnMaster> suggested computer name for the thinkpad?
02:57:17 <AnMaster> "phoenix" and "tux" are already in use
02:57:41 <GregorR> pikhq: I could get Vista or 2008 for free, but that would wound me deeply.
02:58:05 <GregorR> oklopol: Why is that not useful to me?
02:58:20 <oklopol> GregorR: because i'm busy spamming estoeric atm.
02:59:21 <pikhq> GregorR: Fair enough.
03:05:22 <GregorR> ../../binutils/dwarf.c:207: error: unknown conversion type character ‘I’ in format
03:05:36 <GregorR> If it just didn't check, it wouldn't mark that as an error, and it would work :P
03:05:54 <pikhq> GCC hearts its checking.
03:05:57 <GregorR> Instead I have to dig into the bowels of GCC, and convince it that yes, I DO want the MSVC printf conversion type characters on ELF.
03:07:38 * pikhq looks for how to convince GCC to accept other conversion types
03:13:54 <pikhq> Disables all format checking in theory.
03:20:40 <Warrigal> `translateto japanese everything
03:20:50 <Warrigal> `translateto ja panese everything
03:22:14 <GregorR> `translateto ja This is a test.
03:22:28 <GregorR> It just couldn't figure out the format above because it was half English and half Japanese I suspect.
03:23:11 <Warrigal> Back-translating, はバズ means "Baz:"
03:23:18 <GregorR> pikhq: re -Wno-format: I'd rather make it do it right.
03:24:29 <GregorR> `translateto ja I do not speak Japanese.
03:24:40 <Warrigal> I'm going to translate "Beef: it's what's for dinner" and see if it begins with "牛肉は".
03:24:46 <Warrigal> `translateto ja Beef: it's what's for dinner.
03:25:06 <GregorR> Somebody's off by one character.
03:25:06 <pikhq> GregorR: Making GCC handle other conversion types requires glibc.
03:25:08 <Warrigal> `translateto ja Beef is what's for dinner.
03:25:32 <GregorR> pikhq: GCC handles other conversion types already on MingW >_<
03:25:45 * Warrigal transliterates 牛肉：ディナーのためのものだ。
03:27:59 <pikhq> Something to do with register_printf_function.
03:29:07 <Warrigal> I'm sure that last bit is more than one word.
03:31:36 <GregorR> So am I correct in my assumption that in spite of all the positive comments a moment ago, not a single person has checked out winelf, and heaven forbit the thought that they've actually compiled it? :P
03:32:48 <GregorR> Oh wait, pikhq identified libhost_
03:37:31 <pikhq> I've not compiled it for lack of functioning Win32 or the desire to set it up, but I have been poking around in the source.
03:39:37 <GregorR> I don't have Win32 right now, but I can still compile it :P
03:40:23 <pikhq> Though the crossdev script makes that nice...
03:41:42 <pikhq> Then, should just be crossdev --target=i686-pc-win32-mingw or some such.
03:42:44 <pikhq> And it magically compiles a crosscompiler.
03:43:03 <GregorR> I'll betcha it can't do i686-win32elf ;)
03:45:13 <pikhq> Could without too much work.
03:45:31 <GregorR> win32elf's "libc" is wonko
03:46:22 <pikhq> The really nice thing is that the crosscompilers from crossdev are automatically stuck in the package manager...
03:56:33 <pikhq> Currently fetching gcc.
04:04:38 <GregorR> Any Europhiles about? Which side of a Euro coin is "heads"?
04:05:20 <oklopol> heads is usually the one with the head, the other has the number, euros just have the number
04:05:40 <oklopol> i don't actually know, never threw a coin in english
04:09:54 <GregorR> "heads" is the side with the head, yes :P
04:10:02 <GregorR> But euros have a number and some symbol.
04:10:11 <GregorR> The symbol is reminiscent of what I'd expect on the "tails" side of a US coin.
04:10:34 <GregorR> Anyway, Wikipedia confirms that the numbered side is "tails"
04:10:44 <GregorR> (Or, more precisely, the reverse, as opposed to the obverse)
04:12:17 <oklopol> well now that wp confirms it, i can tell you i was actually 100% sure about it.
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06:42:13 <GregorR> The backup finally seems unwonko, at a mere 8MB rather than the 65MB/day it was at first.
06:44:04 <GregorR> I'm doing a nightly differential backup.
06:44:18 <GregorR> The first night to the second night something got screwy, so the diff was 65MB (the total size).
06:44:28 <GregorR> The second to the third night it got fixed, which of course again made the diff 65MB.
06:44:39 <GregorR> Tonight it's finally down to a reasonable 8MB.
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10:21:36 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Way to worsen the balance, China
10:22:40 <oerjan> no that won't worsen the balance, assuming it actually does decrease infanticide.
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11:07:38 <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is terrible.
11:07:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why? It seems quite nice and simple
11:08:35 <ehird> How to make XFCE: Take gnome. Make it uglier. Make it more obscure. Rewrite a ton of stuff because NIH. Add too many settings for its own good.
11:09:08 <AnMaster> ehird, KDE 4 sucks a lot. Gnome sucks even more. I tried both today. xfce4 seems rather nice.
11:09:30 <ehird> <ehird> X is bad. <AnMaster> Why? <ehird> Reasons. <AnMaster> X is not bad.
11:09:53 <AnMaster> ehird, <AnMaster> list some better one
11:10:11 <AnMaster> xfce may be far from perfect, but it seems better than the two other alternatives I tested
11:10:30 <ehird> My broken English parser's stack overflowed, but Gnome is better.
11:10:47 <ehird> If you have some psychological control freak problems, try one of the window managers like pekwm.
11:11:54 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw the touchpad is mutlitouch
11:12:05 <ehird> Yes… like all Synaptics touchpads.
11:12:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, I can easily do the same to you; <Anmaster> Gnome sucks even more. <ehird> Why?
11:13:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well this is of course subjective. But it always seemed to lack settings, and have a kind of "dark" feeling, even if you changed theme
11:13:45 <AnMaster> (and I dislike that dark feeling)
11:14:02 <ehird> 01:56 AnMaster: suggested computer name for the thinkpad? \
11:14:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well it timed out and I went for dragon
11:14:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, wait, dark feel?
11:14:31 <AnMaster> ehird, but why dingbat? I might change if it is funny enough
11:14:37 <ehird> http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.26/figures/gnome.png.en_GB
11:14:42 <ehird> This is what stockG nome looks like.
11:14:52 <ehird> I'm having a hard time imagining something more... well... light.
11:15:17 <ehird> XFCE is… much the same, so I don't understand at all.
11:15:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it was much worse a few years ago, but still not light like kdeclassic is. xfce4 needed a bit of poking to make it light
11:15:45 <ehird> Really, I can't help you with undefined notions.
11:15:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well this is all subjective...
11:16:20 <AnMaster> however I seriously need to fix the fonts in xfce somehow...
11:16:23 <ehird> alternate universe: <AnMaster> Why isn't XFCE nice? <ehird> Its gloob is too zackynicky. <AnMaster> Ohh
11:17:02 <ehird> Programmer's Day - an informal festival programmers, celebrated on the 256-day year (255 th with a zero). Number 256 (2 8), chosen because it is the quantity of numbers, which can be expressed through vosmirazryadnogo bytes. Also, «256» in hexadecimal notation - it «100» ( «0x100»). And this is the maximum degree of 2, which is less than 365 (days per year).
11:17:04 <ehird> 24 July 2009, the Ministry of Communications and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation prepared and submitted to the Government of the Russian Federation a draft Decree of President Russia «On the Day of the programmer" [2].
11:17:18 <Slereah> !swedish wir muessen die juden ausrotten
11:17:19 <EgoBot> vur mooessee deee-a joodee oosruttee
11:17:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you install the BCI freetype?
11:18:03 <ehird> Subpixel antialiasing is uselessly ugly without it.
11:18:03 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure yet... I still haven't got stuff like wlan setup properly. And touchpad is kind of neurotic atm
11:18:13 <ehird> Also, yeah, no-hinting just looks bad in freetype.
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11:18:48 <ehird> "I can't contradict or refute the materialist hypothesis because what I am speaking of is an unmeasurable internal state not observable behavior. "
11:19:07 <ehird> "This exists because I say it does. It is not observable in any way, nor does it affect anything."
11:19:16 * ehird CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
11:20:06 <AnMaster> ehird, how do I know if freetype is BCI?
11:20:20 <AnMaster> actually I could just check the PKGBUILD file
11:20:25 <ehird> Are you using Ubuntu? If not, get a package marked super-illegal-bci-this-will-explode-in-to-your-FACE.
11:20:33 <ehird> ~end of flowchart~
11:20:38 <ehird> AnMaster: I was doing it in flowchart form.
11:21:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, it'd be nice if you could clarify your feeling of brooding Gnome evil darkness. Maybe the window shadows?… they're not default, you know :P
11:21:42 <ehird> Have you, BTW, set the dpi properly? RGB antialiasing would incidentally look like crap with that being wrong too, BCI or not.
11:21:46 <AnMaster> that is one part of it at least
11:21:49 <ehird> AnMaster: is your gnome experience mainly with ubuntu?
11:22:00 <ehird> its icon theme is not default or anything; it does make it quite dark indeed
11:22:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I think first time I used gnome was Red Hat 6
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11:23:07 <ehird> You didn't say that that I read, but.
11:23:20 <AnMaster> ehird, err? Parse fail at "that that"
11:23:29 <ehird> (You didn't say that) that I read
11:23:40 <AnMaster> ah ok.. anyway: <AnMaster> ehird, KDE 4 sucks a lot. Gnome sucks even more. I tried both today. xfce4 seems rather nice.
11:23:56 <AnMaster> ehird, used each for maybe half an hour
11:24:06 <ehird> I'd, personally, vote in favor of giving gnome a try and, like, changing the icon theme? But you using Gnome would pretty much destroy the universe, so.
11:24:19 <ehird> I mean, it's not perfect, but no desktop environment is.
11:24:26 <ehird> (Apart from the one you make yourself and only use its apps.)
11:24:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I did change icon theme
11:25:16 <ehird> AnMaster: did you try the Tango icons?
11:25:35 <ehird> http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Desktop_Project // they're not flashy but they're quite … bright
11:25:51 <ehird> http://tango.freedesktop.org/images/2/20/Tango-feet.png
11:25:52 <AnMaster> there seems to be a patch to enable it in arch
11:25:53 <AnMaster> -#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING
11:25:54 <AnMaster> +#undef TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING
11:26:01 <AnMaster> -/* #define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER */
11:26:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Unpatented?
11:26:01 <AnMaster> +#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER
11:26:08 <AnMaster> -#undef TT_CONFIG_OPTION_COMPONENT_OFFSET_SCALED
11:26:09 <AnMaster> +#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_COMPONENT_OFFSET_SCALED
11:26:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, that would presumably do it.
11:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, and well it looks quite sane apart from DPI
11:26:35 <AnMaster> how did you calculate DPI again? the one you gave me seems slightly wrong
11:26:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Measure the diagonal size in inches of the screen, plz?
11:26:54 <ehird> I'll give an exact DPI.
11:27:20 <ehird> Hooray for tape measures?
11:27:47 <AnMaster> the edge stands out a bit in the upper part so can't get very close
11:28:06 <ehird> AnMaster: could it be 0.5 cm longer, perhaps?
11:28:18 <ehird> if so that measurement is useless as it doesn't differentiate 15.4"/15.6"
11:28:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, try 128.65 = 129
11:28:54 <ehird> BTW, if the fonts look fine you might not have tried RGB antialiasing. Without the BCI, you can really see the red/green/blue.
11:29:03 <ehird> (Maybe that's why you hated it.)
11:29:21 <ehird> Admittedly it might not matter so much with such tiny pixels, but.
11:30:04 <AnMaster> hm actually X already pre-calculated it to 128, but then I started using your measurement and it got screwed up
11:30:20 <ehird> Well, 128.6 is more like 129 than 128...
11:30:28 <ehird> It presumably rounded to a power of two.
11:30:31 <ehird> I guess it has 128 bitmaps.
11:30:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it was still quite close
11:30:45 <AnMaster> ehird, as opposed to windows going for 96
11:30:59 <ehird> Windows doesn't even try.
11:31:15 <AnMaster> anyway touchpad is still neurotic
11:31:23 <ehird> Installed the closed source drivers?
11:31:29 <AnMaster> trackpoint seems saner after some fiddeling
11:31:33 <ehird> (Closed source being a good synonym for "working" in the field of drivers.)
11:31:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Dunno. Search the AUR?
11:31:48 <ehird> (Well, and the main list.)
11:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well thinkwiki doesn't mention it
11:32:04 <AnMaster> just the usual open source synaptics drivers
11:32:47 <ehird> Enough Lame Computing - The project for rewriting the computing world
11:32:51 <ehird> Now we are STILL learning Haskell - this language is teaching us a lot! (March 2008 - November 2009)
11:32:56 <ehird> Reinvisioning computing without having a fucking clue about relevant languages fail.
11:33:21 <AnMaster> that quote just seems strange. I can't even figure out what part is wtf
11:34:00 <ehird> Because they have an ALL-ENCOMPASSING NICELY FORMATTED PAGE OF WONDERNESS that consists of saying something only slightly removed from "Hey, I tried Linux today. It's much better than Windows!" in context.
11:34:15 <ehird> Also, the only other links are to pages that are self-labeldly buzzwords.
11:35:35 <AnMaster> why is firefox called "shiretoko"
11:35:57 <AnMaster> I thought it was iceweasel that was the non-branded one
11:36:15 <ehird> It's a nightly thing.
11:36:22 <ehird> Shiretoko Alpha 1 Release Notes
11:36:22 <ehird> 4 Sep 2008 ... Shiretoko Alpha 1 is an early developer milestone for the next version of Firefox that is being built on top of Mozilla's Gecko 1.9.1 layout ...
11:36:26 <ehird> AnMaster: so I guess they stole the name for it.
11:36:30 <ehird> Why are you using a non-branded version?
11:36:42 <ehird> Discover Shiretoko
11:36:44 <AnMaster> ehird, because I installed it from arch repo?
11:36:44 <ehird> Stories of a world natural heritage
11:36:46 <ehird> site and the Firefox web browser.
11:36:48 <ehird> DiscoverShiretoko.org
11:36:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Arch don't have the non-branded version?
11:37:40 <ehird> They sucked Mozilla's dick.
11:37:47 <ehird> Yeah, ship my branding, baby.
11:37:51 <ehird> It's non-free but that's okay with me, baby.
11:38:02 <ehird> ↑↑ This is how Ubuntu decisions are made
11:38:09 <ehird> AnMaster: but anyway doesn't have arch have non-free stuff in its repo?
11:38:26 <ehird> I'd recommend trying out one of those nifty WebKit browsers, but iirc one of them ignored my dpi settings or something when I last tried 'em.
11:38:51 <ehird> Arora's pretty cool though.
11:38:59 <ehird> Fits in with GTK environments too if you install that theme thingy.
11:39:09 <ehird> (GTK theme thingy.)
11:39:38 * AnMaster gets yaourt then http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=5401
11:40:43 <ehird> AnMaster: thinkhdaps, you mean
11:40:58 <ehird> that's a gtk applet for it
11:41:59 <ehird> http://www.discovershiretoko.org/en/stories/;; Damn Mozilla corp, this shit is strained
11:51:15 <AnMaster> I know laptop has hdaps, it worked under windows
11:51:21 <AnMaster> yet linux claims it isn't supported
11:51:40 <ehird> “Linux: It just works!”
11:51:50 <ehird> “*working may involve doing it yourself”
11:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird, most stuff does on desktops though
11:52:07 <ehird> AnMaster: And more laptops are sold than desktops. :P
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12:18:01 <ehird> I should start speaking like Dijkstra or something.
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12:50:06 <AnMaster> hm seems to have hit some sort of wlan bug
12:58:02 <AnMaster> it fails to assoc for several minutes after a cold boot
12:58:22 <AnMaster> seems like same as this: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-wireless-networking-41/wifi-connection-instantly-dissassociating-on-hp2510p-using-iwlagn-driver-692665/?s=f40682f15c4e0a045ce9e004a347851a
13:34:10 <ehird> [[As a deist[…]To me, the most basic definition of God is the turtle on the bottom. When and if science comes up with proof of the nature of the basis of our universe, I will continue to call that God.]]
13:34:14 <ehird> Dammit, I hate pantheistic deism.
13:34:24 <ehird> "Oh, I believe in God! If by God you mean NATURAL PROCESSES."
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13:42:10 <ehird> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,805681,00.html If only this took off then; we'd have progressed beyond copyright decades sooner! We're currently nearing the end of "Phonevision"... funny.
13:42:21 <AnMaster> yay got suspend to ram to work
13:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I guess ThinkPads aren't quite as out-of-the-box Linuxy as they once were?
13:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird, and this seems like a rather new model. As in: nothing knows about it
13:43:24 <ehird> The R500s are like circa 2007 I think.
13:43:28 <ehird> Maybe the specific model is new.
13:43:36 <ehird> (Did you get an R500 or something else?)
13:47:25 <ehird> (note that Phonevision era's $1 = today's $8.20)
13:51:13 <AnMaster> suspend to disk worked out of box. Just one thiny issue: BIOS sees it as a normal bootup. Can probably be easily fixed
13:52:52 <AnMaster> dual suspend works with same settings as for suspend to ram
13:53:29 <ehird> what happens when you close the case?
13:54:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't set up acpid yet
13:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, the first issue with suspend to ram was that it didn't turn on backlight afterwards
13:54:57 <AnMaster> just had to tell it to rerun VBE POST
13:55:12 <ehird> i don't even know what that *means*
13:55:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well. It basically means tell video bios to reinitialise it's own state
13:56:07 <AnMaster> and now suspend to both works...
13:56:37 <AnMaster> ok not really. that messed up a bit
13:57:02 <AnMaster> vertical blue lines with some Missingno there
13:57:23 <AnMaster> and I could just type reboot by hand and it worked
13:57:41 <ehird> I'm glad computers like ,e.
13:58:17 <ehird> That generally wasn't referring to the typo.
13:58:21 <ehird> Did you take it as that?
13:58:59 <ehird> 13:57 ehird: I'm glad computers like ,e.
13:59:01 <ehird> 13:57 ehird: (Generally.)
13:59:03 <ehird> Generally was just a random remark.
13:59:06 <ehird> Not a "haha, how ironic, it made me typo".\
13:59:29 <AnMaster> it was "hah" about that they "generally like you"
13:59:53 <ehird> You are not in interpreting error state.
13:59:54 <AnMaster> okay... suspend two both is having serious issues... not sure why
14:00:21 <ehird> You have to think about it from its perspective.
14:00:27 <ehird> "Okay, okay, we're suspending to RAM, okay, that's good, okay..."
14:00:33 <ehird> "now er... wait, i can't do something, I'm suspended"
14:00:42 <ehird> "Shit. Shit. That doesn't make any fucking sense. What did I do?"
14:00:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it saves to disk first...
14:00:50 <ehird> "What did I do now? Maybe I'll just break carefully."
14:00:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Umm, no.
14:00:58 <ehird> The whole point is that it suspends before saving to disk…
14:01:01 <ehird> Oh, you mean that's the issue?
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14:01:27 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did. I saw the text saying: "suspending to disk...." for a few seconds, then the suspend to ram led came on
14:01:53 <ehird> AnMaster: that wasn't the full suspension
14:01:56 <ehird> that was just the strat
14:02:09 <ehird> AnMaster: your drive is not fast enough to write 4GB of RAM to disk in a few seconds
14:02:18 <AnMaster> ehird, linux doesn't write it all
14:02:27 <ehird> …which is most of it.
14:02:31 <AnMaster> it compresses with gzip or something like that
14:02:43 <AnMaster> ehird, dirty caches are flushed first
14:02:57 <ehird> Eww, dirty caches. That's just bad hygiene.
14:08:10 <AnMaster> suspend to both works in X though
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14:40:52 * ehird downloads the Windows 7 RC; VMWare Fusion
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14:49:30 <ehird> https://profile.microsoft.com/RegSysProfileCenter/… ;; No, microsoft, you cannot run your component on my OS X system.
14:49:36 <ehird> It doesn't work that way.
14:57:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:57:59 <ehird> What web browsers support the Windows 7 RC download experience?
14:57:59 <ehird> Internet Explorer 7, Internet Explorer 8, and Firefox support the Windows 7 RC download experience. Please note that Internet Explorer 8 users behind a proxy server should use the automatic configuration for their proxy server for the best download experience.
14:58:14 <ehird> Switch to a new browser for the "Windows 7 RC download experience"!
14:58:25 <ehird> …Watch exciting progress bars?
14:58:53 <ehird> …so how am I meant to download Windows 7 WITHOUT ALREADY HAVING WINDOWS?
15:00:40 <AnMaster> so I'm going to try ubuntu instead. Hopefully it will work better out of box on this computer. Even though I will dislike it.
15:00:48 <ehird> Here we go, a direct link.
15:00:58 <ehird> AnMaster: They do, it's all they have.
15:01:02 <AnMaster> so I can try it first without installing it
15:01:03 <ehird> Get, of course, the 64-bit version.
15:01:13 <ehird> AnMaster: IIRC it persists your settings too.
15:01:19 <ehird> So you can make Gnome all fluffy and... non-dark... before installing.
15:01:41 <AnMaster> and yes of course the 64 bit one
15:01:50 <ehird> Yes. Considering you have 4GB of RAM...
15:02:45 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you also agreed with me yesterday
15:02:48 <ehird> now you're trying Ubuntu
15:02:54 <ehird> are you sure you're feeling okay?
15:03:02 <ehird> I can check your forehead, you might have a fever... the UNIVERSE might have a fever...
15:03:39 <AnMaster> ehird, only to see if it works better out of box here. Since I can't get sound to work under arch either for it. And it has <generic Intel "HD" sound chipset> so not *that* unusual.
15:03:55 <AnMaster> still I hope it can handle encrypted home properly
15:04:11 <ehird> Ubuntu will work perfectly out of the box on just about any machine, especially ThinkPads, as they're popular for Linux.
15:04:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, you'll have to do some hacking with a chroot for that...
15:04:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd just encrypt the whole /
15:04:37 <AnMaster> now if it only was rolling release
15:04:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Eh, it'd work fine, no?
15:05:14 <ehird> AnMaster: But what if someone steals your /etc, dude?
15:05:20 <ehird> Or your secret kernel?
15:06:35 <AnMaster> sure takes a long time to download...
15:06:37 <ehird> AnMaster: It appears to be quite easy to do an "unencrypted /boot, encrypted /" partition dealie.
15:06:40 <ehird> Also, pick another mirror.
15:06:46 <ehird> I suggest Germany.
15:06:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it is maxing out my connection :P
15:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, 697 MB large iso takes a bit
15:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it might be worth installing Ubuntu stock and migrating to encrypted later
15:07:28 <ehird> since it's a bit fiddly
15:07:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure I will install it
15:07:42 <ehird> I meant if you do decide to
15:07:50 <AnMaster> it depends on if alsa and wireless and suspend to ram and so on works on the livecd or not
15:08:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Almost certainly, although I'm not sure how suspend to RAM interacts with LiveCDs.
15:08:19 <ehird> Also, it'll be quite slow, because, y'know, CD.
15:08:34 <AnMaster> anyway I don't think the wlan will work properly
15:08:43 <ehird> Lemme tell you a story.
15:08:48 <AnMaster> ehird, open bugs at kernel.org
15:08:55 <ehird> ubuntu patch their kernel
15:09:19 <AnMaster> ehird, also the devs doesn't know if it is the wlan driver or wpa_supplicant causing the issues.
15:09:56 <ehird> For my mother's computer, she bought a really cheap Phillips wireless USB dongle. Crappy plasticy-feeling thing, has terrible Windows drivers, never worked properly, etc. At one point, I installed Ubuntu on it for her, unplugged the ethernet, and plugged it in, expecting to have to do some hacking. The wireless icon appeared. I clicked it, selected a network, and it was connected.
15:09:58 <ehird> it didn't even install any drivers
15:10:13 <ehird> I'd wager that if a no-name USB WiFi adapter works without doing anything, ThinkPad wireless will too
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15:10:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed. And this wlan works very well usually. Even intel are behind it
15:10:53 <ehird> Ubuntu backport an awful lot of fixes and the like, tho.
15:11:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Good news.
15:11:03 <ehird> Ubuntu 9.04 and later include ext4 as a manual partitioning option at installation time, including support for ext4 as the root filesystem. ...
15:11:08 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't fixed yet though. So unless they have a time machine?
15:11:29 <ehird> So if you install it and want to encrypt it's still probably better to migrate later when you have a working system, but ext4 is just a click in a dropdown.
15:11:36 <ehird> AnMaster: rolled back the breaking change?
15:11:56 <ehird> they wouldn't ship a release that messes up common wifi
15:11:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not a regression it seems. Rather it is an issue on very new chipsets.
15:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, if sound works however...
15:12:45 <ehird> I'd be very, very surprised if Intel chipset sound didn't work immediately.
15:12:49 <AnMaster> and well suspend to ram works. So does suspend to disk. Just not suspend to both
15:13:13 <ehird> Oh, and Ubuntu comes with the BCI freetype OOTB, which is nice.
15:13:39 <ehird> s/OOTB/out of the box/; can't be using confusing terminology now can we
15:14:08 <AnMaster> ehird, ah got it to work under arch
15:14:14 <AnMaster> had to unload and reload the module once
15:14:23 <ehird> Well that's logical.
15:15:37 <ehird> meanwhile, http://imgur.com/WkkQL.png
15:15:52 <AnMaster> not very good quality speakers in it though. But meh, I have yet to see a laptop with good speakers
15:16:06 <ehird> A laptop with good speakers is a laptop that doesn't fit on your lap and can't close.
15:16:20 <ehird> Even this iMac's speakers take up the whole bottom grill.
15:16:23 <ehird> Well, apart from a bit in the middle.
15:16:27 <ehird> That's what you open to get at the RAM.
15:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I'm only going ubuntu then if wlan works without issues (there is an open bug in launchpad for it... not likely) and/or if suspend to ram, closing the lid and so on all works
15:18:21 <ehird> So you only want it if it's perfect, not better?
15:18:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I was going to say that I might change anyway if things seem good enough
15:19:04 <AnMaster> but now sound isn't a factor any more
15:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, where are the checksums for ubuntu isos
15:19:38 <ehird> You actually check checksums?
15:19:45 <ehird> Probably on some FTP somewhere.
15:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, for isos? yes definitely
15:21:08 <AnMaster> gpg signature would be best, but I at least expected sha256sums
15:23:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure I see the value of a fancy checksum if you're getting the checksum from pretty much the same place as the ISO image itself.
15:23:12 <ehird> Yes, but you're the only one who cares…
15:23:26 <ehird> fizzie: Maybe gamma rays corrupted the ISO to have a virus dood
15:23:42 <ehird> It'll wipe all of AnMaster's valuable files on his laptop.
15:23:44 <ehird> He's had it for years, you know.
15:23:52 <AnMaster> cd is marked as 700 MB, well should fit
15:23:54 <fizzie> Yes, well, a md5sum would detect accidental corruption just as well.
15:24:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, not intentional though
15:24:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes... all CDs are the same size...
15:24:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have any on the laptop yet
15:24:21 <ehird> But that's the thing. An MD5 is useless.
15:24:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, for intentional corruption they've obviously changed the checksums too; that's why I said "getting it from the same place".
15:24:30 <ehird> It only detects "this is fucked up man", which happens WHEN YOU BOOT IT.
15:24:34 <AnMaster> ehird, um... CDs used to be 650 MB IIRC?
15:24:34 <ehird> Because they have CRCs in the bootloader thingy.
15:25:02 <ehird> Media typeOptical disc
15:25:03 <ehird> Capacity184 MiB (8 cm)
15:25:05 <ehird> 650-900 MB (12 cm)
15:25:13 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I'm not sure I see the value of a fancy checksum if you're getting the checksum from pretty much the same place as the ISO image itself. <-- I wasn't
15:25:19 <ehird> CD-ROM capacities are normally expressed with binary prefixes, subtracting the space used for error correction data. A standard 120 mm, "700 MB" CD-ROM can hold about 847 MB of data, or 737 MB (703 MiB) with error correction. In comparison, a single-layer DVD-ROM can hold 4.7 GB of error-protected data, more than 6 CD-ROMs.
15:25:21 <AnMaster> the checksum was listed on their website
15:25:33 <ehird> AnMaster: the website is owned by the mirror guys, duh
15:25:39 <ehird> if they push out a change the other guys get it too
15:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not the same mirror :P So a bit less risk *in theory* but yeah I would much have preferred a gpg signature
15:26:25 <ehird> Your CD drive sucks.
15:27:55 <fizzie> Well, cdimage.ubuntu.com's dvd images for karmic koala daily-builds have MD5, SHA1 and SHA256 checksums; I guess they're getting there.
15:31:05 <ehird> LONDON — Harry Patch, the last soldier to fight in the trenches of Europe during World War I, died Saturday at the age of 111, his care home in southwest England said.
15:31:06 <ehird> Patch, who fought at the Battle of Passchendaele in 1917, was also Britain's oldest man following the death of fellow veteran Henry Allingham, who was also the world's oldest man, one week ago.
15:31:14 <ehird> the one before him lasted like two weeks
15:33:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ok I think I mostly got suspend working under arch too. Not perfectly but quite a lot better
15:34:00 <ehird> Sure is a lot of work you're having to do there.
15:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, actually the system is missing from the "whitelist"
15:35:19 <fungot> (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S
15:35:30 <fizzie> ^def source ul (http://git.zem.fi/fungot)S
15:35:36 <fizzie> Might as well use that thing.
15:35:52 <ehird> <AnMaster> NOOOOOOOO! NOT GIT!
15:36:08 <ehird> (Ew, it's gitweb.)
15:36:19 <fizzie> Hey, now, there was a package.
15:38:00 <AnMaster> hm... hibernate-tools seems to work better
15:38:07 <AnMaster> they have some thinkpad workaround
15:44:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ah btw I found out what the sound problem actually was: a permission problem
15:44:21 <AnMaster> user was not in right group, so my own faukt
15:44:40 <AnMaster> solved it by: gpasswd -a anmaster audio
15:49:50 <AnMaster> ehird, hm wireless works sometimes in arch too. a cold reboot often fixes the issue. So that it works means nothing. Needs more testing
15:50:34 <fizzie> Funny, would have suspected Ubuntu to grant audio-group access with the login.defs CONSOLE_GROUPS or some such mechanism for X logins. It doesn't sound the Ubuntu way to have users fiddle with that sort of stuff.
15:50:51 <ehird> He's doing it with Arch.
15:50:59 <fizzie> Ah. Well, that's another thing entirely.
15:51:24 <AnMaster> can't check if it works to mount then
15:51:26 <ehird> As I said, if you want Ubuntu, it's really best just to go with /boot and /.
15:51:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean then I don't want ubuntu? I see
15:52:07 <ehird> You could also continue suffering through Arch if you want
15:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, to allow installing in the livecd env
15:53:14 <ehird> It does install in the LiveCD environment.
15:53:18 <pikhq> ... Seriously, if you're going to do a complex installation (like setting up LVM), use Debian.
15:53:28 <ehird> pikhq: But he's on a _laptop_.
15:53:32 <ehird> With a 160GB drive. Total.
15:53:42 <ehird> He's only partitioning because he wants to encrypt /home.
15:53:49 <ehird> Because he doesn't want to encrypt / for some reason.
15:53:55 <ehird> pikhq: I'm saying that anything but /boot & / is just silly
15:54:56 <AnMaster> ah there we go. lvm installed in tmpfs on livecd
15:55:07 <AnMaster> seems like the livecd does use unionfs or such
15:55:49 <ehird> <AnMaster> I want the smooth, integrated, everything-just-works experience of Ubuntu. Now how do I tweak the installation process?
15:56:22 <pikhq> Note: use Debian if you want Ubuntu's "Just Works"™ but tweakable.
15:56:25 <AnMaster> anyway it all depends on how livecd turns out
15:56:39 <pikhq> Given that that's pretty much what Debian is for desktop usage these days.
15:57:49 <AnMaster> lets see if it can browse the file system on my phone
15:58:23 <ehird> pikhq: Said like someone who's never used Ubuntu.
15:58:26 <ehird> Debian is, really, milse apart.
15:58:32 <ehird> Ubuntu has a _ton_ of tweaks and integration.
15:58:50 <pikhq> ehird: Said like someone who's not used Debian since Ubuntu became popular.
15:59:52 <ehird> I've _only_ used Debian since Ubuntu became popular.
16:00:09 <AnMaster> hm I got the "tap trackpoint to click" working in arch
16:00:10 <ehird> You're highly underestimating the configuration and integration the Ubuntu team does.
16:00:22 <AnMaster> doesn't work out of box and no setting in the mouse thingy for it under ubuntu
16:00:41 <GregorR> Debian is pretty damn tweaked from raw sources, and Ubuntu is pretty damn tweaked from Debian.
16:01:20 <ehird> AnMaster: methinks you're going into ubuntu with the mindset of trying to find something wrong about it so you can quickly dismiss it…
16:01:25 <ehird> at least it appears that way from hear
16:01:33 <ehird> s/hear\nhere/here/
16:01:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to see if I will actually gain anything from it first
16:01:47 <GregorR> I here it that way from hear too ;)
16:02:08 <pikhq> ehird: I think we can both agree that he should be using a more tweakable distro if he's going to be tweaking his distro, though. ;)
16:02:29 <ehird> Yes, but I also think that in this case, his tweaks are just making life hard for him within the restraints of his laptop.
16:02:49 <pikhq> Eh, it probably would be nicer to have an encrypted root.
16:02:53 <GregorR> LFS is the only distro worth using.
16:02:57 <GregorR> People who don't use LFS are losers.
16:03:01 <pikhq> I don't think Ubuntu handles *that* gracefully, either, though.
16:03:17 <ehird> pikhq: That's not the thing, though
16:03:23 <ehird> He wants LVM so he can resize /home and /
16:03:28 <ehird> Because the HD is small
16:03:30 <ehird> so he can't anticipate
16:03:40 <ehird> he only wants to separate /home and / so he can only encrypt the former
16:03:52 <ehird> Since LVM is a pain on Ubuntu, I'm saying he should just encrypt /
16:03:56 <ehird> Because it'd be a lot simpler.
16:04:08 <AnMaster> ok found how to browse file system by bluethooth
16:04:23 <pikhq> I'm saying he should just use a different distro. LVM is nice. It should be used everywhere. :P
16:04:48 <ehird> pikhq: If we're being idealistic, partitions for a single OS suck.
16:04:58 <ehird> We should just have a partition per OS, and store objects on it instead of files.
16:05:05 <ehird> And have an orthogonal persistence system.
16:05:10 <ehird> Meanwhile, back in reality.
16:05:37 <pikhq> ehird: If we're being idealistic, OSes should not suck.
16:07:16 <ehird> In an alternate universe:
16:07:21 <ehird> Oh, just a package to emerge.
16:07:23 <ehird> …and a few configuration files.
16:07:26 <ehird> …and a kernel recompilation.
16:08:09 <ehird> Yay, 5 minutes until Windows is downloaded.
16:08:13 <ehird> (↑ Something I never thought I'd say)
16:09:02 <AnMaster> you can set how long it should be inactive for turning of the screen
16:09:10 <AnMaster> you can't drag it below 11 minutes though
16:09:33 <ehird> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20090724/ ← Hahahaha. I see they've read http://xkcd.com/605/
16:09:46 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, why 11 minutes in ubuntu
16:09:53 <ehird> It… goes down to 11?
16:09:57 <ehird> It might be a Gnome thing, also.
16:10:05 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a joke.
16:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, probably they picked 10 full, complete minutes of idleness
16:10:42 <ehird> And then when it hits the 11 minute (after 10 full minutes), it goes off.
16:10:59 <ehird> It's rather arbitrary, but wanting it to go off after 5 minutes or something would be silly, so.
16:11:22 <AnMaster> ehird, why should they prevent users from doing that?
16:11:57 <AnMaster> my *phone* turns off backlight after 10 *seconds* or so
16:11:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Because then the slider bar would be less granular because it would be the same size with bigger range
16:12:05 <ehird> And so 99% of people would suffer.
16:12:09 <ehird> For the needs of a crazy 1%.
16:12:13 <AnMaster> much faster when it displays the "press ... to unlock"
16:12:18 <ehird> Those 1% can either use something else or use gconf-editor.
16:12:48 <ehird> Usability is stripping out everything unneeded or extremely unlikely and then presenting the rest as fluidly and quickly as possible.
16:13:04 <ehird> If you want to abandon a usable interface because you can't set your sleep time to <11 minutes, uhh, feel free.
16:13:13 <ehird> Strange how every critic of Gnome is such a control freak.
16:13:26 <ehird> Yay, Windows 7 RC downloaded.
16:13:32 <AnMaster> ehird, ...? I just dislike dumbed down systems
16:13:36 <ehird> It's not dumbed down.
16:13:45 <ehird> AnMaster: If we allow any amount of minutes. Why not seconds?
16:13:54 <ehird> What if I like my system to go off after precisely 3 minutes 14 seconds?
16:14:05 <ehird> Your response is presumably "no, because that's ridiculous; who needs that?".
16:14:27 <ehird> "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
16:14:31 <ehird> With a bit of rephrasing it's quite applicable here.
16:14:48 <Deewiant> What if it's "yeah, the slider should have the same granularity as the kernel call that eventually uses the value"
16:15:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you arguing that the user interface should be dictated by the internal code?
16:15:20 <ehird> Please, please don't say yes.
16:15:29 <Deewiant> No, by the limits of the underlying system.
16:15:41 <Deewiant> Somewhat the same thing, I guess.
16:15:52 <ehird> It is the same thing.
16:15:54 <Deewiant> And I'm not really arguing it, just presenting a hypothetical.
16:16:04 <ehird> Are you arguing for my point of AnMaster's?
16:16:06 <Deewiant> I'm not sure where I really stand on the matter.
16:16:15 <ehird> Mine is about being less specific than the underlying interface.
16:16:46 <Deewiant> My point is, I guess: why restrict the UI if the code can do more
16:17:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Because usability is ALL ABOUT figuring out the must natural and fluid way to present the realistic operations and optimising heavily for them.
16:17:33 <ehird> That may get you extreme precision to flex your system abs; it doesn't get you a simple, usable, consistent interface vs a mass of sluggish knick-knacks.
16:17:46 <ehird> There are, of course, compromises. I find they rarely matter in practice, and those that do tend to be bugs.
16:19:53 <AnMaster> ehird, same wlan issues on ubuntu after suspending a few times btw...
16:20:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Freaky chipset, I guess.
16:20:05 <ehird> Nothing you can really do.
16:20:35 <oklopol> a slide bar should just be an input hole waiting for a value, you should be able to insert your own gadget in there if you want more precision.
16:20:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is already one
16:20:47 <oklopol> err, a slide bar should just be the default filler for the hole, that is
16:20:54 <ehird> oklopol: that basically meshes with my OO OS design, yah
16:21:08 <ehird> but it handles it far more elegantly than just making a gigantic slider
16:21:37 <oklopol> ehird: have you seen tangible functional programming or whatever at google talks? i've had very similar ideas, and found some of it rather interesting
16:21:47 <ehird> I think I've heard the general concept
16:22:00 <ehird> I think that Smalltalk is basically close to the perfect model
16:22:34 <pikhq> I am vaguely of the opinion that there needs to be a strongly typed OS.
16:22:57 <ehird> See http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/'s Dana.
16:23:20 <ehird> Strongly-typed, purely functional, dependently typed, FRP programming language & OS.
16:23:26 <AnMaster> ehird, but yeah I might do gnome on arch (as a test)
16:23:42 <pikhq> If it weren't vaporware, then <3.
16:23:44 <oklopol> basically interfaces are just ways to visualize objects, and interaction is done with functions, say a program where you can rotate a pic would be a function from reals to pics to rotated pics, which would be represented as an input box for a real and an input and an output box for function output for those inputs.
16:23:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Ubuntu's Gnome is generally a better Gnome because of the added integration
16:24:06 <oklopol> *and an input box for the pix
16:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that is possible. Why not push the patches upstream?
16:24:32 <ehird> AnMaster: because they integrate Gnome with the OS and their own cherry-picked services
16:24:36 <ehird> instead of just with each other
16:24:43 <ehird> but Gnome is really about the total-system integration
16:24:47 <ehird> yes, a lot could be pushed upstream
16:25:02 <ehird> oklopol: method rotate: on BitmapImage, give it a number of any kind
16:25:07 <pikhq> ehird: It would also be totally awesome to have an arrow-and-monad-based CLI.
16:25:29 <ehird> you could e.g. tell BitmapEditor to add a rotate button to the toolbar
16:25:30 <pikhq> Of course, designing something like that is actual work.
16:25:36 <ehird> it's all about views on objects
16:25:42 <ehird> you can manipulate objects, and have views on them
16:25:51 <ehird> which are ways of visualising and manipulating the object
16:25:57 <ehird> no programs, just views and methods aggregated from everywhere
16:27:27 <ehird> pretty much the platonic ideal of what an OS should be, implemented
16:27:45 <pikhq> Sounds like KDE on crack.
16:27:56 <ehird> representing and changing arbitrary things in any way
16:28:22 <AnMaster> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/HDAPS#How_to_install_the_driver <-- aha
16:28:28 <pikhq> ehird: Well, since that's basically what KDE does (sort-of) for its GUI code.
16:28:35 <oklopol> ehird: tfp does that, and adds automatic interface composition to function composition
16:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, please take a look at that section
16:28:42 <pikhq> But, of course, they don't touch the underlying system aside from abstraction layers.
16:28:44 <AnMaster> then tell me what will be easiest
16:28:45 <ehird> oklopol: automatic interface composition?
16:28:48 <oklopol> because it's purely functional
16:28:49 <AnMaster> doing that under arch or ubuntu
16:28:54 <ehird> foo : thingthatCanRotate -> thingthatCanFly ->
16:28:57 <AnMaster> because it doesn't work under ubuntu either
16:28:57 <ehird> thingthatcanrotateandfly?
16:29:25 <oklopol> ehird: you can have a rotator and a scaler, and you can fuse ones output to the other's input to have a component that does both
16:29:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ubuntuforums.org
16:29:51 <ehird> search the howto section
16:29:53 <oklopol> you should check out the talk, it has interesting ideas
16:29:54 <ehird> there'll be an easy way
16:30:01 <ehird> oklopol: well right, that's trivial
16:30:17 <oklopol> ehird: trivial maybe, but your ideal smalltalk model doesn't do it
16:30:19 <ehird> oklopol: use a rotator view on a BitmapImage
16:30:26 <ehird> oklopol: then use a scaler view on the rotator's image
16:30:53 <ehird> you could easily abstract it
16:31:10 <ehird> I just think the object analogy works better for an OS
16:31:21 <oklopol> i guess the point is just to have outputs and inputs be objects you can actually move around however you want.
16:31:34 <ehird> oklopol: but yeah, you the essential components are objects, their methods, and views
16:31:46 <ehird> where the views are what let you interact, compose etc the objects and act on their methods
16:32:06 <pikhq> ehird: Just make it be strongly typed and we're good. :P
16:32:13 <oklopol> and yes, object analogies work better for oses, this was more of an application/ui designer stuff; or maybe it's just the fact the developers were haskellers
16:32:17 <ehird> pikhq: i'm not sure
16:32:25 <ehird> pikhq: typeclasses burden the system's fluidity
16:32:35 <ehird> you should be able to make up new types of images on the go and piece together things in unexpected ways
16:32:43 <ehird> instead of the more rigid typeclass system
16:32:59 <ehird> pikhq: you could, of course, do things like implement methods in Haskell
16:33:12 <ehird> and entire subsystems
16:33:26 <ehird> but i think the top-level object system is more liberating with a duck-OO system
16:33:33 * pikhq is more-or-less imagining using typeclasses to make an OS provably secure via a typechecker
16:34:18 <AnMaster> bash: /sbin/iwconfig: Input/output error
16:34:25 <AnMaster> file says it doesn't exist either
16:34:38 <pikhq> I've had this VM for a few *days* and it's got viruses.
16:35:03 <pikhq> And it's ran for maybe a few hours.
16:36:35 <oklopol> i've used windows all my life, and i've had one virus
16:37:01 <oklopol> which was completely my own fault
16:37:07 <pikhq> ... It... Came in the service pack?
16:37:12 <oklopol> i don't really use protection
16:37:14 <pikhq> ... Infecting notepad.exe?
16:37:33 <ehird> oklopol: don't use protection ay?
16:38:04 <oklopol> for sex, i make my partners use protection; for computers, that's kinda too much work.
16:38:34 <oklopol> anyway, i guess i have some virus protection now
16:38:38 <oklopol> not that i ever let it actually run
16:39:01 <oklopol> maybe it does some checking transparently, i don't really have the faintest
16:39:37 <ehird> haha the safari 4.0.2 update is 40.2MB
16:41:29 <augur> needs more naked and less piano.
16:41:34 <augur> also, you should play some philip glass.
16:42:02 <augur> philip glass is a composer.
16:42:16 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=philip+glass&search_type=&aq=f
16:42:55 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNiOqa1nWgI&feature=fvst << SO true
16:43:22 <augur> because its pretty!
16:43:53 <augur> omg that video is so true
16:44:24 <AnMaster> oh fun... ubuntu's network manager crashed even
16:44:29 <oklopol> listened to 5 seconds of one of his songs, and that.
16:44:41 <oklopol> happened to be the same thing
16:45:22 <AnMaster> hm seems older wpa_supplicant might work
16:47:01 <oklopol> 1. that's one of the most used progressions in all western music
16:47:10 <augur> its literally ALL of philip glass in one video
16:47:29 <oklopol> but the he doesn't know names of chord
16:49:40 <augur> torley is a silly man :D
16:50:21 <oklopol> anyway, he is correct in that glass seems to be kinda trivial music
16:50:34 <augur> well the thing about glass's music is not that its complex so much
16:50:35 <ehird> ambient is not trivial
16:50:51 <augur> its that its got a lot of structure
16:51:55 <augur> if the notes of mozart's piano pieces are a random walk, then the notes of philip glass's piano pieces are a fractal
16:52:33 <oklopol> all i'm saying is that kinda stuff is trivial to compose
16:52:41 <augur> its like good trance, if you look at a small interval, and then look later at another interval of the same size, youll see a lot of similarity. its only when you pull out that you see the structure
16:52:55 <augur> oklopol, maybe it is. but it doesnt seem to be.
16:53:19 <augur> i mean, while torley gets a lot of the glassian style correct, at a low level, the 3-to-20 note level, on a larger scale he fails
16:54:05 <ehird> only when you pull out ey
16:54:08 <ehird> ONLY WHEN YOU PULL OUT
16:54:27 <augur> i think philip glass's style is less about the complexities of the initial writing of the music, so much as the complexities of making it all work together locally and globally
16:54:33 <augur> its like a canon, i think
16:54:34 <ehird> i wonder, if you don't use virus protection, is pulling out cancelling the bogus install process?
16:54:40 <augur> the motif of a canon isnt necessarily complicated
16:54:47 <augur> nor are the principles of canon construction
16:55:03 <augur> and yet canons are still amazingly difficult to do right
16:55:22 <augur> i suspect that canons are probably some of the easiest music to compose with a computer, tho
16:55:42 <augur> because its mostly just constraint programming
16:56:09 <augur> who was it that was all "wee computer music! :D"?
16:56:31 <oklopol> augur: the details of the chords are interesting. melody is trivial, and chord progressions are basically copy pasted from all pop ever made.
16:56:41 <oklopol> is my opinion on first listening
16:56:42 <ehird> http://codu.org/algorhythms/
16:56:57 <augur> oklopol: its not just chord progressions tho
16:57:05 <oklopol> by details of the chords i mean the arpeggios
16:57:14 <augur> the thing about glass's music is that its chord progression progressions
16:57:20 <augur> and chord progression progression progressions
16:57:39 <oklopol> you mean the whole structure? i'm not especially interested in those, so yeah i maybe not be the best judge either, but didn't seem special in any way.
16:58:01 <augur> you have to listen to actual philip glass music tho
16:58:05 <augur> not just torley's thing
16:58:12 <oklopol> i mostly do short riffs, that's why i like metal.
16:58:20 <augur> its a lot like japanese music as well
16:58:30 <augur> in principle, anyway
16:58:46 <oklopol> i wasn't listening to torley
16:58:46 <augur> traditional japanese music isnt about the complexity of the pieces or the local complexity of the notes
16:58:53 <augur> oklopol: well then!
16:58:59 <augur> GregorR: do you do canons?
16:59:36 <pikhq> Well, virus is t3h fixéd. Just pulled notepad.exe from the Windows ISO...
17:00:41 <GregorR> augur: My algorhythms have no concept of "styles" of music.
17:00:51 <augur> you should try to write a canon writing program
17:01:25 <augur> also, theyre awesomely algorithmic
17:02:05 <oklopol> i have no idea what canons are
17:02:29 <oklopol> unless you mean the thing where the a melody is played on top of itself
17:02:39 <oklopol> that's what it meant when i sang in a choir.
17:02:43 <augur> its not simply a melody on top of itself
17:02:52 <ehird> there should be a satanist choir
17:02:55 <augur> thats a fugue, of sorts.
17:03:00 <augur> a canon is like a fugue on speed
17:03:05 <augur> in canons, you have a motif
17:03:12 <ehird> can't go wrong with speed
17:03:16 <augur> that gets duplicated multiply, usually.
17:03:26 <augur> you play it once normally
17:03:35 <augur> then play it again, maybe offset in time
17:03:44 <ehird> argh i can't spawn new processes
17:03:57 <augur> yes, like you start playing a few notes later relative to the first instance
17:03:59 <ehird> how do you kill something if you can't spawn a process? AnMaster?
17:04:03 <augur> like the row-row-row-your-boat fugue
17:04:06 <ehird> i can spawn a shell
17:04:13 <oklopol> augur: original still playing you mean?
17:04:19 <ehird> ps doesn't terminate
17:04:25 <oklopol> right, then it's not weird.
17:04:28 <augur> or you offset it in pitch, so you play it twice at different pitches
17:04:35 <augur> or you play it upside down
17:04:48 <augur> so where the notes transition up in the original, they transition down in the copy
17:04:50 <oklopol> err, you mean a chromatic transposition or in scale?
17:04:58 <augur> uh.. either! i dont know
17:05:02 <augur> or you play it backwards
17:05:08 <augur> or you play it twice speed
17:05:23 <augur> or you combine these together
17:05:28 <augur> and you do it multiple times
17:05:55 <augur> so the motif is being played three, four, five times upside down backwards twice as fast, etc etc
17:06:25 <augur> and because of the combinations, you end up getting chords, usually
17:06:44 <augur> so you ALSO strive to achieve chord progressions that are, by themselves, quite elegant and beautiful
17:06:48 <oklopol> my process is often similar to that, after which i find a local optimum by moving the individual notes a bit, while keeping some local structure consistent
17:06:59 <augur> so that the different instances of the motif, by themselves, are beautiful
17:07:13 <augur> as are the combination of them taken as a whole
17:07:37 <augur> Bach is probably the most famous canonier
17:07:57 <augur> fugues tho, afaik, are usually simple canons with a time offset
17:08:46 <augur> and ofcourse you can have secondary motifs
17:08:50 <augur> and tertiary motifs
17:09:30 <augur> the trick to writing canons and fugues is having a single motif that sounds good multiple ways
17:09:36 <augur> and which also combines with itself elegantly
17:10:25 <augur> REALLY good fugues, in my opinion, are structured so that the single motif, plus its permutations, combine in such a way that the combination itself has complex structure that isn't obvious form just the motif
17:11:06 <augur> e.g. maybe there's a crescendo halfway through the piece, but no motif has a crescendo
17:12:10 <oklopol> i'm only interested in rhythm and pitch, but i get it.
17:12:37 <oklopol> GregorR: interesting local structures in these algorhythms or yours
17:13:02 <augur> this is why i think that canons are perfect for an algorithmic treatment
17:13:29 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
17:13:43 <augur> the motifs have to be good by themselves
17:13:43 <oklopol> there was one pretty interesting thing in that one song of yours, but i couldn't quite make the details out from your playing, i think it was number 10, that thing where you bang the piano like an elephant.
17:13:54 <augur> and the chord progressions their combination produces also has to be good
17:14:02 <oklopol> but you know, an elephant that knows how to play
17:14:06 <augur> and making it all fit is IDEAL for a constraint programming system
17:14:42 <oklopol> augur: no disagreement there
17:15:43 <augur> canons and fugues themselves have relative simply underlying principles
17:15:53 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, but I didn't know the process ID
17:15:55 <augur> motif + variations
17:16:03 <augur> much like philip glass's music
17:16:15 <augur> oh, oklopol, i left out some versions
17:16:17 <oklopol> GregorR: do you publish score?
17:16:20 <Deewiant> ehird: for i in $(seq 1 65535); do kill -9 $i; done
17:16:36 <ehird> Deewiant: i did that by holding down the power button
17:16:40 <augur> in canons sometimes youll get the motif shifting around by some notes here or there
17:16:47 <augur> and the shifts of the motif itself play out the motif
17:17:02 <Deewiant> ehird: With a bit of luck the pid of the target process is lower than the pid of your shell
17:17:03 * ehird waits for disk to settle down then restarts VM
17:17:11 <oklopol> because of self-symmetries
17:17:19 <ehird> Deewiant: yes but otoh all my other shit was below.
17:17:20 <Deewiant> And nothing else important has a pid lower than your shell
17:17:24 <augur> so that the motif might be a progression of notes 1234
17:17:44 <augur> and then you play it again, but shifting the first note of the motif to start at the second note
17:17:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Run important stuff as root so that you don't kill them accidentally!
17:17:56 <ehird> augur: er it's 2341
17:18:21 <oklopol> ehird: transposition, not rotation, methinkg
17:18:39 <augur> or if it were more complex, 12324, then 23435, then 34546, then 23435, then 45657
17:18:50 <augur> where the first note of each of the instances itself plays out the motif
17:18:51 <GregorR> oklopol: http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata%20Piano%20Arr.pdf
17:19:27 <augur> so its a progression of instances of the motif
17:19:35 <augur> and the progression itself plays the motif
17:19:41 <GregorR> http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata.{mid,mp3,ogg} since that one isn't on the Algorhythms site.
17:19:46 <augur> or maybe it plays a permutation of the motif
17:19:49 <oklopol> actually i can make out the melody now
17:19:52 <ehird> GregorR: he means op.10
17:20:18 <augur> ehird: does that make sense?
17:20:26 <ehird> i didn't pay attention
17:20:37 -!- jix has joined.
17:20:57 <ehird> you still haven't told me where note 5 comes from
17:21:04 <ehird> 1234 → 2345; what's 5
17:21:19 <augur> so you have your motif
17:21:19 <oklopol> GregorR: what ehird said, when you come back.
17:21:30 <augur> M = 12324, lets say
17:21:47 <augur> M[i] is the i'th note of the motif
17:22:24 <oklopol> right, so not transposition
17:22:31 <augur> well it IS transposition
17:22:34 <augur> its just complicated
17:22:50 <oklopol> do we consider the motif an infinite repetition of the same thing
17:22:52 <augur> the i'th copy of the motif is transposed by M[i]
17:23:03 <augur> so the 0th copy of the motif is 12324, say
17:23:16 <augur> so its not transposed at all
17:23:27 <augur> the 1th copy is 23435
17:23:54 <oklopol> and we're talking chromatic transpositions? i don't think those were allowed quite that directly when bach composed
17:24:16 <oklopol> only as structure, atonality is a newer concept
17:24:44 -!- augur_ has joined.
17:25:01 <augur_> sorry, storm, power outages, you know.
17:25:07 <augur_> anyway, so the first copy is 23435
17:25:19 <ehird> 17:23 oklopol: and we're talking chromatic transpositions? i don't think those were allowed quite that directly when bach composed
17:25:20 <ehird> 17:24 oklopol: only as structure, atonality is a newer concept
17:25:30 <augur_> because the second note of the motif is 2. so you start the motif at 2, but follow the same progressions
17:25:45 <augur_> so the motive is transposed up one note
17:25:56 <pikhq> GregorR: What, exactly, does your libc consist of?
17:26:05 <ehird> augur_: *motif, not motive
17:26:07 <augur_> then the third copy starts at the third note of the motif
17:26:09 <oklopol> GregorR: the thing starting from 6:34 has the "*.***.*.*.*.*." rhythm in the beginning, i like it.
17:27:46 <oklopol> augur: transposed withing used non-chromatic scale that is?
17:29:20 <oklopol> that is, if the motif is say 02357230, would its transposition one up be 13468341 or 23578352
17:29:33 <AnMaster> ehird, is there any way to try out compiz on the live cd?
17:29:41 <ehird> AnMaster: go into appearances preferences
17:29:51 <ehird> (Extra makes resizing warble and shit; just looks terrible)
17:29:54 <oklopol> a chromatic transposition means you need to make sure every note happens to drop on the same scale
17:29:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you're using compiz
17:30:02 <oklopol> assuming we're using some western scale underneath
17:30:10 <ehird> AnMaster: e.g. minimizing/maximizing/window shadows
17:30:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well I want to see rotating 3D cube desktop
17:30:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it is, but now i want to stab yo.
17:30:35 <ehird> you who always hates bling :)
17:30:46 <ehird> AnMaster: i think you need to install a plugin and shit
17:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do. But I want to see how bad it looks
17:30:55 <ehird> not really worth it
17:31:10 * pikhq , intrigued, wgets Cygwin to play with
17:31:30 <ehird> pikhq: run cygwin under wine
17:31:33 <ehird> then run wine under cygwin
17:31:36 <ehird> repeat until you die
17:31:38 <pikhq> ... Cygwin source code.
17:31:52 <ehird> (of alcohol poisoning?)
17:32:25 <ehird> alcohol poisoning, n. Using so many Windows programs under WINE that you have all the disadvantages of a Windows desktop, but on Linux.
17:33:14 * pikhq intends to get CygwinELF.
17:33:32 <augur_> oklopol: i have no idea precisely how the scales work
17:33:37 <oklopol> augur: anyway, whether glass is crap or not, it's definitely pretty much the opposite of what i enjoy playing.
17:33:49 <ehird> pikhq: cygwin isn't like
17:33:56 <ehird> so you'll still have to recompile
17:34:06 <ehird> also linux syscalls
17:34:12 <pikhq> ehird: I'm getting the source tarball.
17:34:15 <oklopol> augur: basically you have the octave split in 12 equal steps, and there are certain subsets of those that are called scales
17:34:17 <ehird> I mean the prorgams
17:34:26 <oklopol> in bach's day, you always stayed withing the scale afaik
17:34:26 <augur_> it'd be interesting to try and generate transpose canons using a CFG
17:34:33 <pikhq> And, like, CygwinELF would be, like, WinELF'd Cygwin.
17:34:33 <oklopol> atonality means using all 12
17:34:41 <ehird> pikhq: i think cygwin might do things like mess around with internal PE stuff
17:34:44 <ehird> so it might not work
17:34:50 <ehird> (Windows still uses PE, right?)
17:34:55 <pikhq> ehird: Thus why I'm getting the source tarball to look at.
17:35:00 <pikhq> And yes, it does still use PE.
17:35:01 <augur_> oklopol: one of bach's canons never ends, technically
17:35:46 <ehird> It's updating while installing.
17:35:50 <ehird> Less rebootifying.
17:35:55 <augur_> the whole canon is a motif that ends on the same note it began, but one octave higher
17:35:59 <oklopol> augur: major is 024579(11)(12), minor is 02357(8|9)(10|11)(12), | because there are multiple kinds of minors.
17:36:08 <augur_> and traditionally its looped, getting higher and higher and higher
17:36:11 <oklopol> you can try that out on the chromatic scale starting from any note
17:36:18 -!- jix_ has joined.
17:36:59 <augur_> check out bach's Musical Offering, and Well Tempered Clavier
17:37:06 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:37:17 <ehird> Setup is updating registry settings
17:37:18 <augur_> oh, and then there are versions of the motif where extra notes are added
17:37:21 <augur_> or some notes are removed
17:37:36 <augur_> basically any way you can alter the motif
17:39:06 <pikhq> Looks like all cygwin process spawning goes through the spawn function.
17:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Tp_smapi is the key
17:40:11 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:40:28 <pikhq> Which, though very complex, doesn't seem to be doing anything really funky with the executable.
17:40:40 <pikhq> Just a lot of Windows API junk.
17:41:42 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving").
17:41:55 -!- jix has joined.
17:46:14 <pikhq> GregorR: So, all Cygwin program execution eventually goes through spawn_guts.
17:46:28 <pikhq> GregorR: This is where the processes are actually created and loaded.
17:47:51 <pikhq> In principle, you could just add another code path that loads ELF executables via elfloader rather than the Win32 process loader.
17:48:07 <pikhq> This would be tricky but entirely feasible.
17:48:57 <augur_> i think you could write a transpose canon generator
17:49:04 <augur_> that works using a CFG, essentially
17:49:06 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
17:49:17 <augur> or something roughly like a CFG
17:50:04 <augur> e.g. M = 1 2 3 2 4 | 1*M 2*M 3*M 2*M 4*M
17:50:58 <oklopol> so basically "1 2 3 2 4" * 12^n :P
17:51:19 <augur> because you dont have to go the same depth for each M on the right hand side
17:51:24 <oklopol> well not exactly, that was actually something you didn't answer
17:51:27 <augur> maybe the first one is just 1 2 3 2 4
17:51:46 <augur> but the second is 1 2 3 2 4 2 3 4 3 5 3 4 5 4 6 2 3 4 3 5 4 5 6 5 7
17:51:58 <augur> so its M^2, lets call it
17:52:05 <augur> and maybe the third is M^3
17:52:07 <augur> and the fourth is M^2
17:52:11 <augur> and the fifth is M^4
17:52:18 <augur> so the depth ITSELF is the motif!
17:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, getting the disk protection to work was easier in arch once I knew where to look. While it is known broken in ubuntu
17:53:43 <ehird> You know that I don't care how much you hate Ubuntu, right?
17:54:14 <AnMaster> ehird, but it also has downsides. Like arch does too
17:54:26 <AnMaster> I'm atm trying to figure out if it is easier to fix the issues in arch now or not
17:54:45 <AnMaster> due to the issue with network in ubuntu too I don't think I would gain much
17:55:25 <ehird> Long-term you would; i.e. integrated desktop environment.
17:56:04 <ehird> Hey, "ls" works in PowerShell. Neat.
17:56:40 <ehird> Windows 7 is doubleplusgood so far.
17:57:58 <oklopol> augur: true, torley sucks at structure
17:58:02 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, if you want good fonts, go into Appearance settings, Fonts, Advanced, RGB, Slight, and DPI = 129 dpi
17:58:49 <oklopol> but i'm sure something like a 1212343 would fool you into thinking it's a rich structure (one of the basic western song structures)
17:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: might take a minute or two to get used to but i'm sure you'll see the light.
18:00:02 * AnMaster looks at hdaps... not making sense
18:00:13 <augur> i need a way to output sound from ruby :|
18:00:21 <ehird> augur: bloopsaphone, bitch!
18:00:25 <oklopol> 1 = verse, 2 = some kinda build-up, 3 = "chorus", 4 = something interesting and surprising
18:00:33 <augur> or to throw numbers into a midi thing
18:00:33 <ehird> Windows 7's taskbar > OS X Dock
18:00:40 <ehird> if only this thing were built on top of posix
18:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, again X under ubuntu guessed on 128 dpi
18:00:58 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, but 129 is slightly better :P
18:01:05 <AnMaster> atm I'm trying to make sense of hdaps
18:01:30 <ehird> if you entered it with the dot into the font panel it'd round up anyway
18:01:33 <ehird> Deewiant: ppi calculator
18:01:52 <ehird> (which gets all the other displays I tested in it right, so)
18:02:25 <oklopol> also torley doesn't get the local structures at all correct, all he does is know a few chord progressions and a few trivial arpeggios
18:02:38 <ehird> you're a trivial arpeggio oklopol
18:03:04 <oklopol> glass' progressions don't seem to be that basic
18:03:07 <ehird> Deewiant: sheesh, even windows defaults to a higher dpi than your display!
18:03:11 <ehird> also X11, which is 80sware
18:03:12 <oklopol> but dunno, i'm more of a melody dude
18:03:30 * ehird watches his VM window spastically resize more than once a second
18:03:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
18:03:36 <ehird> I think those drivers were bad.
18:03:53 <ehird> Deewiant: the default.
18:04:23 <ehird> yay, the drivers appear to work now
18:04:28 <ehird> windows 7 startup sound is nice
18:04:50 * ehird turns on airy aero
18:05:01 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:05:50 <augur> whats bloopsaphone
18:06:08 <augur> im on the github now
18:06:59 <augur> hm. ill have to figure out how to calculate notes from numbers D:
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18:11:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:12:30 <augur_> http://pastie.org/558757 play this
18:17:00 <augur_> its the 12324 recursively generated to a depth determined by the motif itself
18:17:03 <oklopol> the numbers are notes on what scale?
18:17:13 <augur_> any scale of your choosing
18:19:02 <GregorR> oklopol: 'fraid not ... I could whip one up if desired ... I compose on the piano, then hypothetically write the score, but by the time I'm partway through writing it I hate what I've written to much and abandon the notion.
18:20:38 <oklopol> anyway, i can in fact hear what you're doing there, i remembered incorrectly dat. not that i wouldn't like seeing the score anyway
18:22:30 <oklopol> augur_: sounds pretty crappy on a minor scale :P
18:22:45 <augur_> the motif is shit, so..
18:22:47 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
18:24:18 <oklopol> of course if you listen to it as a 5/4 melody, you'll hear... well, how it was generated
18:24:49 <oklopol> as a 4/4 melody, it does do interesting stuff, but only until the progression in 5/4 changes differently than a 4/4 should've.
18:25:44 <oklopol> i've done some experimental work on playing a 15 note melody multiple times while leftie plays 4/4
18:26:03 <augur> oklopol: please to record
18:26:04 <oklopol> so that this transposes the whole thing
18:26:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:26:16 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:26:16 <oklopol> well not transposes, but it makes it fit the chord progression
18:26:30 <oklopol> well i can record it the same way i recorded the last, only now i have my clothes on.
18:26:39 <oklopol> also need to go to the shoppe first
18:27:19 <ehird> http://www.takimag.com/article/is_obamania_over/ ;; obama strongly supports rainbows; pedobear
18:32:33 <ehird> I wonder why my Windows 7 VM is faster than the host at doing things.
18:41:26 <GregorR> http://www.takimag.com/images/gallery/BHORainbowBear2_med.jpg This is almost too hilarious for words :P
18:45:19 <augur> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
18:45:59 <ehird> GregorR: See above, where I linked it :P
18:46:03 <ehird> I wonder how it got there
18:46:10 <ehird> The journalist is a boring old... curmudgeon from the looks of it.
18:46:18 <ehird> Hax0red? Seriously didn't know?
18:46:21 <ehird> Is the coolest old person ever?
18:46:27 <GregorR> Yeah, Idonno, it's just too hilarious for words :P
18:46:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:46:42 <ehird> Obama's platform consisted of hope, change, rainbows and child rape.
18:46:45 -!- augur has joined.
18:47:00 <ehird> augur: you missed the child rape
18:47:15 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki.Picture_by_Drawing_Machine_2.jpg
18:47:17 <ehird> 18:46 augur has left IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:47:20 <ehird> 18:46 augur has joined (n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
18:47:47 <ehird> augur: that image looks distinctly non-free.
18:48:14 <augur> distinctly non-free?
18:48:23 <ehird> This work of art is distributed under the Free Art license. You are free to redistribute it and/or modify it according to terms of this license. ArtLibre.org
18:48:27 <ehird> All images belong to Desmond Paul Henry's estate of which I, Elaine O'Hanrahan, am an executrice.
18:48:37 <ehird> ((executrice is an obnoxious word))
18:48:56 <augur> have you looked at generative music theory?
18:49:14 <augur> theres been a fair amount of research into it
18:49:23 <augur> lots of GM theory is just formal language theory
18:49:25 <augur> with musical notes.
18:49:28 <augur> instead of symbols.
18:49:31 <ehird> TRUE MOGULS THAT FLY /
18:49:36 <augur> Lerdahl, F. and R. Jackendoff. 1982. A generative theory of tonal music. Cambridge, Mass: MIT Press.
18:49:42 <ehird> TRUE MOGULS THAT DIE /
18:49:43 <augur> both Lerdal and Jackendoff are linguists
18:50:02 <ehird> Have I mentioned that I'm basically on crack?
18:50:05 <augur> or are you a mugal?
18:50:12 <augur> ehird, we couldve guessed
18:50:22 <ehird> You could have sexed
18:50:27 <ehird> BUT THE FLOR EVAPORATED
18:50:45 <ehird> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ un warp
18:51:02 <ehird> Locale and the debts.
18:51:04 <augur> but thats faster than the fastest warp factor!
18:51:04 <ehird> Locale and the debts.
18:51:09 <ehird> Debts and the locale.
18:51:13 <ehird> Locale debts are in the debt locale
18:51:24 <ehird> BEACUSE OF NIGEL UFCKING TUFNEL, SPACE PIRATE
18:51:51 <augur> http://gigapedia.com/items/199498/composing-music-with-computers--music-technology-
18:51:52 <ehird> baited breath??? MORE LIKE bAIT YOUR DEATH
18:51:55 <ehird> BE EXTREME WITH EXTREMENESS
18:51:59 <ehird> EXTREME 100% EXTREME
18:52:25 <augur> i used that pun the other day :o
18:52:32 <ehird> them's the rules by which THEM'S THE DROOLS
18:52:37 <ehird> BY DROOLS I MEAN DROOLERS
18:52:43 <ehird> WHICH IS THE RULERS
18:53:58 <ehird> http://www.withinwindows.com/2009/07/16/downloading-another-browser-in-e-without-a-browser-in-3-steps/ ← windows 7 doesn't actually lack ie
18:57:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:01:28 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:05:10 <oerjan> that new language on the wiki just rolls off the tongue, practically
19:07:48 * oerjan is not immensely convinced of its esotericity
19:08:45 <Slereah> Well, with a name like that, it has to be!
19:08:51 <Slereah> Who would use such a thing
19:09:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:11:49 <oerjan> I would make a comment on the talk page, but the evil body snatching gnomes inside my body appear to veto it.
19:11:54 <GregorR> Poochiewuddledumpling-Boobledarling looks ... well, entirely based on assembly ...
19:11:55 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:12:02 <GregorR> Like, to the point that it's just a form of assembly.
19:12:12 <ehird> BUT ASSEMBLY IS HARD HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR
19:12:27 <oklopol> had to move the computer to record, but i have a snippet now
19:12:38 <oklopol> forgot there was no battery in
19:13:07 <oklopol> the piece is so slow it'sh
19:16:27 <oerjan> indeed he disappeared 15 minutes ago
19:17:41 <oklopol> although i guess i can paste this one if pasted the last one
19:17:45 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv
19:17:54 <oklopol> although it's significantly worse played
19:17:58 -!- augur has joined.
19:18:11 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv
19:19:14 <oklopol> augur: left hand is completely out of sync, i'm still getting used to recording myself; but right hand melody plays the same thing three times, but it lasts for 15 ticks, so it mixes interestingly with leftie
19:19:52 <oklopol> my hands tend to freeze up when i know i'm being watched
19:19:56 <oklopol> it's why i'm not a surgeon
19:20:47 <oklopol> also that song is longer, but most of it isn't interesting in any mathematical sense
19:20:47 <augur> oklopol what is this
19:20:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:20:53 <oklopol> didn't you ask me to record
19:21:01 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:22:19 <oklopol> 20:25 oklopol: i've done some experimental work on playing a 15 note melody multiple times while leftie plays 4/4
19:22:19 <oklopol> 20:26 augur: oklopol: please to record
19:22:20 <augur> ehird: right but thats that got to do with the video? XP
19:22:37 <oklopol> i was in a hurry to go to the shop, must have misinterpreted that
19:22:59 <ehird> oklopol: pfft, you turned off the camera without showing heavily-compressed, darkened chest
19:23:03 <ehird> what a waste of seconds!
19:23:14 <ehird> augur: watching not recommended
19:23:25 <ehird> oklopol: yeah why'd you just have to give us your penis
19:23:31 <ehird> i mean sheesh some of us prefer the other parts too
19:23:38 <ehird> (at this point, augur downloads 15 copies)
19:23:43 <ehird> (to 15 drives in 15 countries)
19:24:12 <oklopol> augur: you can play the 12324 thing on some midi prog
19:24:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:26:39 <ehird> "The default setting for User Account Control in Windows 7 has been criticized for allowing untrusted software to be launched with elevated privileges by exploiting a trusted application.[38] Microsoft's Windows kernel engineer Mark Russinovich acknowledged the problem, but noted that there are other vulnerabilities that do not rely on the new setting.[39]"
19:26:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:26:44 <ehird> Windows: It's okay, it's broken in other ways too.
19:26:50 <ehird> ais523: [[The default setting for User Account Control in Windows 7 has been criticized for allowing untrusted software to be launched with elevated privileges by exploiting a trusted application.[38] Microsoft's Windows kernel engineer Mark Russinovich acknowledged the problem, but noted that there are other vulnerabilities that do not rely on the new setting.[39]]]
19:27:10 <AnMaster> ehird, link to that "ubuntu on encrypted" thingy?
19:27:23 <ehird> AnMaster: google.com; it involves having a running ubuntu system though
19:27:31 <ehird> no way to do it with the regular installer
19:27:39 <ais523> ehird: is that the now-fixed bug where you didn't need a UAC prompt to turn UAC prompts off?
19:28:07 <ehird> ais523: dunno; the funny bit is the reaction
19:29:10 <ais523> wow, I just got spam in Cyrillic
19:29:19 <ais523> first Cyrillic spam I've seen, I'm guessing Russian
19:29:22 * ais523 wonders whether to translate it
19:30:42 * ais523 wonders how accurately you could regex to match oklo nicks, but exclude non-oklo nicks
19:31:01 <oklopol> augur did something like that once
19:31:12 <ais523> nah, because it doesn't always have an l
19:31:17 <ais523> and certain letters never seem to be used
19:31:26 <ehird> it's always oklo something
19:31:28 <ais523> ehird: I remember okofok in here a while back
19:31:48 <ehird> oklopol: confirm/deny
19:32:01 <oklopol> umm oklofok is one of my usual nicks.
19:32:21 <oklopol> might even be my second most used.
19:32:22 <ehird> ais523 thinks you've been it
19:32:39 <oklopol> yes okofok is possible, but not what i'd usually go for
19:33:07 <ais523> we also had an okopol here ages ago, but it turned out it was because oerjan had stolen the l
19:33:13 <ais523> or possibly, okopol lost the l, and oerjan found it
19:33:30 <oklopol> ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv maybe you're interested, the right hand melody plays a 15 note melody on top of 4/4 on the leftie, while trying to fit the chord progression as it becomes offset
19:33:36 <ehird> i wonder if i'm a bad person for liking windows 7
19:33:50 <oklopol> recorded for augur, but misunderstood, he actually wanted me to record some random crap
19:34:03 <ais523> when Vista came out, I was pretty sure it was the best version of Windows ever
19:34:08 <ehird> ais523: is it better if i dislike the internals but think the UI is great?
19:34:11 <ehird> 'cause that's my position
19:34:18 <ais523> ehird: but they mostly stole the UI from Mac OS X
19:34:25 <ais523> so that's fine, really
19:34:26 <ehird> ais523: but it's *better* in quite a few ways
19:34:27 <oerjan> Are you accusing me of stealing? That's outrageous! Besides, you cannot prove it, I destroyed all the evidence.
19:34:37 <ehird> for instance, the new task bar is better than the dock
19:34:47 <oklopol> oerjan: logs are foreverly.
19:34:50 <ehird> it isn't centered by default, so applications stay in the same place
19:34:53 <ehird> instead of jumping around all the time
19:35:02 <ehird> and it has an expose-like but more localised and less obnoxious to switch windows in apps
19:35:06 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what we want you to think
19:35:06 <ehird> instead of just focusing all of 'em like os x
19:35:25 <ais523> the thing that gets me about the Win7 taskbar is it looks really useful for people who don't run too many differnet applications and easily forget what they have running
19:35:39 <ais523> but considerably worse for people who run loads of different applications and know what they're running at any given time
19:35:51 <ehird> ais523: any windows taskbar is totally unusable with how much stuff i have open
19:36:02 <ehird> the dock bounces about too much and doesn't provide an easy way to switch windows
19:36:04 <ais523> isn't that what you use multiple desktops for?
19:36:10 <ehird> the windows 7 "doskbar" is great
19:36:14 <ehird> ais523: that's arbitrary segmentation
19:36:23 <ehird> why should i have a modal window organization format?
19:36:24 <ais523> ehird: exactly, but that's a good thing
19:36:28 <ais523> you can segment things arbitrarily
19:36:36 <ehird> arbitrary segmentation doesn't work
19:36:39 <ehird> because you have to remember it
19:36:47 <ais523> ehird: generally speaking there's an obvious way to segment in any given situation
19:36:56 <ehird> even if there was, it's extra cognitive load
19:36:59 <oklopol> generally speaking my brain remembers the segmentation for me.
19:36:59 <ehird> which is universally Bad
19:37:10 <oerjan> oklopol: please do not use strange spelling with ? in it, i get unicode paranoia
19:37:15 <ehird> as, if cognitive load were OK, we'd just not bother with usability
19:37:19 <ais523> for me, for instance, generally I'll have standard Internet stuff (RSS feed reader, IRC, web browser, email) in one desktop
19:37:32 <ehird> ais523: i multitask
19:37:33 <oklopol> my friend segmented his hard drive in folders named A-Z, and puts stuff under a completely random letter
19:37:34 <ais523> and whatever programming I'm working on (mostly terminals and HTML renderers for documentation) in another
19:37:36 <ehird> i have a nice big screen
19:37:40 <ehird> and i like floating windows
19:37:45 <ehird> virtual desktops destroy all that
19:37:55 <ais523> ehird: why do virtual desktops destroy floating windows?
19:37:58 <ehird> and they're unneeded, anyway; the win7 dock/taskbar handles the usecase just fine
19:38:00 <ais523> admittedly, my screen's rather smaller than yours
19:38:08 <ehird> ais523: because floating windows means -all- windows floating
19:38:08 <ais523> but I'll normally float a game to the right of TAEB
19:38:11 <ehird> minus ones you've explicitly hidden
19:38:23 <ais523> you can have several maximised windows behind a couple of floating ones
19:38:31 <ehird> then you're not using floating windows
19:38:38 <ehird> you can code imperative programs in haskell, too
19:38:41 <ehird> that doesn't mean haskell's imperative
19:38:49 <ais523> I'm using floating in the sense of not maximised or pinned
19:38:55 <ais523> which IIRC is the usual computer meaning
19:38:57 <ais523> do you mean something else?
19:39:04 <ehird> i'm using it in the sense of windows being behind other windows.
19:39:10 <ehird> apart from ones you've EXPLICITLY hidden
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19:39:14 <ehird> virtual desktops hide all your current windows
19:39:19 <ehird> i'd rather use a tiling wm
19:39:21 <ehird> at least they're consistent
19:39:22 <ais523> ehird: just the ones on a different desktop
19:39:34 <ais523> and IMO, user-configurable inconsistency is good
19:39:35 <ehird> ais523: circular reasoning
19:39:39 <oklopol> i would prefer just having them float around the room so i could physically fetch them, and throw them in the corner when i don't need them.
19:39:52 <oklopol> you can't forget a physical location
19:39:53 <ais523> oklopol: for some reason you just reminded me of Project Natal
19:40:27 <oklopol> btw, i coded haskell last night, and i loved it.
19:40:28 <ehird> ais523: "Virtual desktops are a good way to organise windows." "No, virtual desktops hide windows that you don't explicitly." "That's because they're on another virtual desktop."
19:40:35 <ais523> it's Microsoft attempting to make a control system that's like the Wii remote but more so
19:40:37 <ehird> cirhurhurcular reasoning
19:40:44 <oklopol> i mean actually coded, used classes and monads and everything.
19:40:49 <ais523> ehird: more, self-consistent reasoning
19:41:01 <ehird> ais523: you're saying that virtual desktops hiding windows is good because that's how virtual desktops work
19:41:07 <ehird> that is NOT a valid defense of virtual desktops
19:41:15 <oklopol> ehird: it's incredibly hard, my mouse keeps moving towards to python icon all the time :P
19:41:16 <ehird> it's only a defence if you already accept that virtual desktops are good
19:41:18 <ais523> ehird: no, I'm saying that virtual desktops are good because they let me hide windows
19:41:25 <ais523> and that IMO, hiding windows is useful
19:41:26 <ehird> I don't care if you like them!!
19:41:38 <ais523> ehird: well, being able to hide windows > not being able
19:41:38 <ehird> they absolutely suck and I hate them, so I reject you saying "isn't that what virtual desktops are for?"
19:41:47 <ais523> unless the not being able comes with other advantages
19:42:18 <ehird> that. does. not. solve. the. problem. of. organising. windows. for. someone. who. hates. virtual. desktops.
19:42:21 <ais523> ehird: on your setup, can you check email, and then go back to a full-screen terminal with a game in front of it?
19:42:46 <ais523> that's the sort of thing I typically do, I'm wondering if that isn't typical for you, or if you have a different way to do it
19:42:57 <ehird> ais523: I don't want a defence of virtual desktops!
19:43:03 <ehird> I want something that works if you don't like virtual desktops.
19:43:18 <ais523> so your issue is "I don't like virtual desktops; can you pick something else with all the same advantages?"
19:43:21 <oklopol> what are virtual desktops? are they exactly what they sound like? :P
19:43:31 <ais523> oklopol: it's just you have more than one desktop
19:43:32 <oklopol> like some kinda way to change to another vd
19:43:36 <ais523> and can move programs between them
19:43:45 <oklopol> ubuntu did that in our school
19:43:49 <ehird> 19:42 ais523: ehird: on your setup, can you check email, and then go back to a full-screen terminal with a game in front of it? ← yes, using a magical thing called a window switcher.
19:43:53 <ehird> have you heard of them?
19:43:54 <ais523> oklopol: Ubuntu does that by default everywhere
19:43:57 <ehird> they were invented in 1984.
19:44:11 <ehird> good, because that has nothing to do with vds
19:44:14 <ais523> presumably, you keep the email program minimized/hidden when you don't want it in front of your games?
19:44:26 <ais523> otherwise, I don't see how you can easily send it to behind /both/ windows
19:44:40 <ehird> that's not even a question i can parse
19:44:49 <ais523> ehird: ok, the point is that using a typical window switcher
19:44:50 <ehird> I think you're asking "How do I do <identical workflow to virtual desktops> without virtual desktops?"
19:44:54 <ehird> and the answer is "You don't."
19:45:05 <ais523> it just raises the window you aim for
19:45:09 <ais523> not another window at the same time
19:45:19 <ehird> i raise the window i wan
19:45:24 <ais523> ehird: what if you want more than one?
19:45:27 <ais523> that happens to me all the time
19:45:32 <ais523> well, not all the time, but often
19:45:34 <ehird> then i focus one window then the other
19:45:37 <ehird> and arrange them as I see ift
19:45:42 <oklopol> ehird: basically he wants the ability to make sets of windows switch as a group.
19:45:45 <ehird> if one totally overlaps the other, buy a new monitor that's big enough
19:45:56 <ais523> so IOW your setup is like mine, just more hard word
19:46:06 <ehird> my setup is completely effortless
19:46:14 <ehird> yours has the (even if minor) cognitive load of organising windows in virtual desktops
19:46:26 <ehird> (I don't care if it seems natural; you still think about it for a split second whether you want to or not)
19:46:35 <ehird> mine has less cognitive load, therefore mine — for me — is a superior interface
19:46:38 <ais523> ehird: yours has the work of refocusing windows /every single time/ you switch
19:46:41 <oklopol> i personally hate the fact i need to organize the windows myself
19:46:43 <ais523> also, wouldn't that require using the mouse?
19:47:01 <ehird> ais523: Yes, I use the mouse to do mouse-suited tasks, like EVERY STUDY EVER CONDUCTED ON THEM show is more efficient.
19:47:05 <oklopol> i'd just wanna say "i wanna irc, watch vlc and play solitaire, while having my text editor close by"
19:47:06 <ehird> Yes, it feels slower because of inherent cognitive biases.
19:47:09 <ehird> This has also been researched.
19:47:22 <ais523> ehird: I find the keyboard is more efficient when you don't have a mouse attached
19:47:29 <oklopol> and you know it'd do it; of course i guess that is possible even in win 3.11, i just don't know what button to press :P
19:47:35 <ehird> You're the one who failed to attach a mouse.
19:47:37 <ais523> and I can press control-alt-right faster than I can move my hand to the mouse
19:47:42 <ehird> That's like complaining that your computer isn't usable if you don't attach a display.
19:47:50 <ais523> ehird: you try using a mouse in bed some time
19:48:00 <ehird> ais523: Have you heard of these thing called laptops?
19:48:06 <ais523> ehird: yes, this is a laptop
19:48:15 <ais523> balancing a laptop on my duvet while lying in bed = not hard
19:48:15 <ehird> Apparently it's the only laptop ever without a pointing device.
19:48:23 <ais523> ehird: it is; the touchpad here has never worked
19:48:26 <oklopol> ais523: i'm always in my bed, and i use a mouse all the time
19:48:31 <ais523> I need an external mouse in order to get mice to work
19:48:37 <ehird> ais523: So you want user interfaces to be designed around your computer being broken?
19:48:40 <ehird> Ummmmmmmmmm, argument DISMISSEd.
19:48:43 <ais523> (actually, that's a lie, it worked for about 10 seconds, and has never worked since)
19:48:53 <ais523> ehird: I want user interfaces that can cope with unusual modes of working
19:49:20 <ehird> ais523: would you have complained that it's hard to balance an LCD on your lap if the built-in one was broken?
19:49:29 <ais523> I don't want my experience to be completely incapacitated if the keyboard or mouse or screen stops working
19:49:32 <ehird> and proposed that all UIs should work with just speakers?
19:49:47 <ais523> there's a hardware bug here; if you close the laptop lid, the screen goes off, and it doesn't turn back on again until it's rebooted after that
19:50:30 <oklopol> are there oses for blind people?
19:50:31 <ais523> personally, I'm rather pleased that it's possible to REISUB /in the middle of a distro upgrade/ and have the computer still working when I turn it back on again
19:50:37 <ais523> oklopol: there are screenreaders
19:50:53 <oklopol> yes, but that doesn't work
19:50:54 <ais523> available for most major OSes
19:50:58 <ehird> oklopol: yes they do work
19:51:02 <ehird> i've talked to blind people using them before
19:51:02 <ais523> in fact, I think all major OSes bundle one, although some are better than others
19:51:19 <ehird> (I think for programming they used emacsspeak)
19:51:22 <ais523> ehird: more impressive than that; apparently there are people who play NetHack through a screen reader
19:51:37 <ais523> after setting all the characters to alphanumeric ones to make them easier to screenread
19:51:40 <ehird> ais523: this guy was pretty impressive; I couldn't tell he was blind at all until he mentioned it
19:52:19 <ais523> I'd think typing would be the part of using a computer least hampered by being blind
19:52:28 <ais523> I mean, even sighted people generally don't look at the keyboard when typing
19:52:39 <ehird> ais523: yes, but it meant they could listen to what people were saying quickly
19:52:41 <ehird> in a high-traffic irc channel
19:52:44 <ehird> remember the relevant lines
19:52:46 <ehird> then reply quickly
19:52:50 <ehird> while others were still talking
19:52:58 <ais523> ok, that is impressive; but it's the remembering context that's impressive, not the typing fast
19:53:05 <oklopol> i can't do that and i'm not even blind
19:53:12 <ehird> ais523: you can tell they reacted quickly due to typing fast
19:53:25 <oklopol> well i can, but i don't enjoy it :P
19:53:25 <ehird> typing fast = sending lines fast
19:53:43 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pIWlr3yoE torley is a silly man
19:54:03 <oklopol> anyway, you'd think they don't get the same gui experience with a screenreader
19:54:04 <augur> and that app is cool looking
19:54:14 <ais523> ehird: I distinguish throughput from latency
19:54:15 <oklopol> i mean i'm assuming blind people don't use mouses?
19:54:24 <ehird> oklopol: yeah it's mostly modal
19:54:24 <ais523> to me, 'typing fast' = high throughput, but mentions nothing about latency
19:54:37 <ais523> oklopol: yep, they navigate through everything the same way tab navigates through a dialog box
19:55:01 <ais523> IIRC, they normally use caps lock as an extra modifier key to control the screenreader
19:55:02 <ehird> can't do any better
19:55:09 <ais523> because nobody uses it for anything else...
19:55:15 <ehird> ais523: ah so that's why they're all so calm and collected
19:55:17 <ehird> also, I DO SO FUCK YOU
19:55:24 <ehird> CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR SIGHT
19:55:30 <ehird> oklopol: speech is
19:55:33 <oklopol> you could have surround, and have windows float around.
19:55:49 <ais523> ehird: there's a great bash.org quote about that, but it's probably not worth linking to it because you've probably seen it already
19:55:51 <oklopol> might look kinda ridiculous
19:56:16 <oklopol> but you know webcam, point to windows you want to see, they could make like a buzzing noise
19:56:21 <oklopol> it would be an asymptotically better gui for the blind! :D
19:56:36 <ehird> "I PUT ON MY RObe and wzYEAH BUTrd hTHEt FUNCTOR IS A MONAD When tI CAST LVL 3 EROTICISM"
19:56:43 <oklopol> where asymptotical means not actually, but in some very crooked theory
19:56:44 <ehird> ↑ #haskell + bloodninja surround windows
19:56:55 <ais523> oklopol: hmm... sort of like a VR helmet, but with sound rather than light?
19:57:10 <oklopol> anyway i'd prefer that over the one i have now
19:57:16 <ehird> ais523: what quote was it btw
19:57:16 <ais523> I know that some people use VR helmets to get effectively infinitely large desktops
19:57:53 <ehird> oklopol: i think that you could sort of do that visually with an array of monitors
19:58:00 <ais523> http://www.bash.org/?835030
19:58:03 <oklopol> i'm just saying while blind people might get used to screenreaders, an ideal os for the blind would probably not just be that
19:58:06 <ehird> just make it spin around and zoom in and out and stuff
19:58:14 <ehird> ais523: oh right, old :P
19:58:30 <ais523> that's why I said you'd probably seen it already
19:58:53 <ehird> i wonder if microsoft really can't afford to ship helvetica with Windows (even though apple can) or if they just keep arial through sheer stubbornness
19:59:00 <ehird> even their advertisements use Helvetica
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19:59:11 <ais523> ehird: I think they keep Arial because of the number of people who would demand Arial back if they removed it
19:59:25 <ais523> it was the default font back in the days of Windows 3.1, I think because it was first in alphabetical order
19:59:36 <ais523> and people ended up demanding Arial for years afterwards, probably still are
19:59:43 <ehird> "WTF You fucked up arial in the new release, frist it's called 'hevletica' and second the R used to slant down but now it has a weird curve WINDOWS 8 IS USELESS"
20:00:05 <oklopol> i'd just like to remove all fonts except courier new from my comp
20:00:18 <ais523> remember that Arial is one of the few Microsoft fonts that they released for Linux
20:00:18 <ehird> Never say that again. :|
20:00:30 <ais523> oklopol: Windows will break if you remove MS Sans Serif, IIRC
20:00:31 <ehird> ais523: yes, very evil those microsoft people
20:00:35 <ehird> oklopol: Typography, you bitch.
20:00:39 <ehird> Proportional fonts FTW.
20:00:46 <ais523> ehird: they wanted Arial to become a standard font on the Internet
20:00:59 <oklopol> proportional fonts are ugly
20:01:01 * ais523 uses FreeMono for some things, like source code listings in reports
20:01:12 <ais523> it looks identical to Courier New, AFAICT
20:01:17 <ais523> there's probably a subtle difference somewhere
20:01:22 <ais523> but either I or my screen aren't good enough to notice it
20:01:23 <oklopol> really i'd prefer just writing all caps
20:01:31 <oklopol> but people dislike that too
20:01:37 <oklopol> then again, people are idiots
20:01:44 <ais523> oklopol: like an old-fashioned BBC Micror?
20:01:55 <ais523> it was amusing; they could do lowercase, but people hardly ever used it
20:02:06 <ais523> because you had to turn capslock off to type in lowercase
20:02:17 <ais523> and all the commands were only recognised in uppercase
20:02:34 <ais523> (holding shift when capslock is on = capital letter on a BBC Micro, for some reason)
20:02:52 <ehird> BECAUSE PEOPLE INSTINCTIVELY ADD CAPITALS WHEN THEY'RE TYPING, NO MATTER WHAT.
20:02:55 <ehird> oklopol: not in windows
20:03:00 <ehird> the above sentence would start "bECAUSE".
20:03:14 <oklopol> i don't really ever use caps
20:03:32 <ehird> oklopol: you should implement your oklOS because i'm way too lazy to ever implement my idea
20:03:38 <ehird> alas you are too much of an academic, says I!
20:03:40 <ais523> iT SEEMS THAT cAPS lOCK AND sHIFT GIVES A LOWERCASE LETTER ON LINUX TOO
20:03:46 <ehird> you'd have to make something better than electricity first
20:03:50 <ehird> ais523: probably console too
20:04:10 <ais523> ehird: is console input anything to do with the OS? or is it all handled by the BIOS?
20:04:22 <ehird> when i started writing an OS
20:04:24 <ehird> you had to write keyboard code
20:04:29 <ehird> you got keycodes in
20:04:34 <ehird> and mapped them to chars
20:04:40 <ehird> (thus why linux 1 only did swedish)
20:04:42 <ehird> oklopol: i like to imagine that you'd name all your major discoveries as oklo-something
20:04:56 <ehird> oklochippity (your version of silicon)
20:05:43 <oklopol> i usually name things i do with somekinda pun
20:06:23 <ehird> oerjan: be offended
20:07:23 <oklopol> there were so many fruit flies near the micro i almost tripped because of teh startle
20:08:48 <ehird> i should write my os maybe
20:08:52 <ehird> ais523: should I write my OS?
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20:09:05 <ais523> ehird: only once you have a good idea of how you want it to work
20:09:18 <ehird> (that's the answer)
20:09:30 <ais523> I mean, in more detail than that
20:09:51 <ais523> what things that really need to be built into the OS from the bottom up will you need to build into it from the bottom up?
20:10:15 <ehird> there's not really an "os" in my model tbh
20:10:18 <ehird> it's an environment
20:10:22 <ehird> everything's built in, nothing's built in
20:12:01 -!- mycroftiv has joined.
20:13:14 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
20:13:31 <oerjan> oklopol: wait, you also have flies near the microwave today? they must be up to something...
20:14:56 <oklopol> well. i'm going to vacuum them after a few episodes.
20:15:01 <oerjan> (just one here, though a bigger one)
20:15:26 <ehird> AnMaster: didya figure out how to crypt
20:15:30 <oklopol> GregorR: you'd need quite a lot of them to make a pie.
20:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: someone might steal your cfunge repo :(
20:16:17 <oklopol> i mean you need about 50 of them to make a fly.
20:16:22 <AnMaster> ehird, very funny. Anyway. How pointless would it be to ask in #ubuntu about this?
20:16:35 <ehird> AnMaster: incredibly
20:16:37 <ehird> #ubuntu is useless
20:16:41 <mycroftiv> depends if your goal is information or amusement
20:16:56 <ehird> haven't seen you here before etc etc
20:16:57 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I want to know how to install on encrypted / under ubuntu basically
20:16:58 <ehird> sounds like myndzi though :P
20:17:19 <ais523> #ubuntu is informative sometimes
20:17:24 <ehird> yeah… longtime no see… mycroftiv? :P
20:17:26 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: i joined this channel because i love Plan 9 from bell labs, i use ubuntu but i dont do anything fancy with it other than host plan9 stuff
20:17:30 <ais523> and hi mycroftiv, everyone else seems to be saying hi soon so I may as well too
20:17:50 <ehird> mycroftiv: i wonder what connected you from plan 9 to here, whatever it is it's astonishingly accurate :D
20:17:55 <AnMaster> ehird, there is some talk about "Ubuntu alternate installation CD" not sure what that is
20:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: not worth it
20:18:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the text-based installer with more options
20:18:05 <ehird> i don't even know if they do anything to it any more
20:18:09 <ais523> but I don't know if it has the option you want
20:18:15 <ehird> AnMaster: plus, it'd be just as much as a pain as w/ the graphical
20:18:18 <ehird> since it's mostly out of the installer
20:18:24 <ehird> making the encrypted volume yourself then selecting it, AnMaster
20:18:27 <ais523> mycroftiv: Plan 9 is discussed here every now and then
20:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: just follow some tutorial to make an encrypted volume
20:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure if the initramfs will handle it
20:18:38 <ais523> we love the way that it named an entirely unrelated program to the editor 'vi'
20:18:39 <ehird> choose it in the ubuntu installer
20:18:42 <ehird> AnMaster: you can rebuild it afterwards
20:18:49 <ehird> you'd have to change /etc/fstab too in the root
20:18:52 <ehird> but that'd get it installed at least
20:19:02 <ehird> ais523: it has an emacs man page too!
20:19:10 <ais523> ehird: is it for emacs? or for something else/
20:19:16 <mycroftiv> i like plan9 and anything to make computing and the internet a weirder and wilder place, if there was a movement for Digital Surrealism, id join it
20:19:32 <ehird> ais523: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9_2nd_ed/1/emacs
20:19:37 <ais523> mycroftiv: /definitely/ sounds like you're in the right channel
20:19:53 <ehird> ais523: a polish guy came in with no idea who we were
20:19:56 <ehird> and i talked via google translate
20:20:04 <ehird> also then we did translation stuff w/ egobot
20:20:21 <ais523> that's a great man page, I can't even tell if it's the same emacs or not
20:20:29 <ehird> ais523: really? "editor macros"
20:20:34 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was a macroset for acme, or something
20:20:50 <ehird> ais523: the actual plan 9 programs tend to be well-documented… :P
20:20:53 <ais523> yes, it's obviously an editor, or something for an editor
20:21:01 <ehird> i don't even think /bin/emacs exists on plan 9
20:21:03 <ehird> so it's a phantom man page
20:21:04 <ais523> but given the way plan9 works, I'm wondering if it's the same one
20:21:14 <ehird> it's mu, due to not existing
20:21:22 <ais523> also, the correct location is /boot/emacs
20:21:41 <mycroftiv> there used to be a joke/troll manpage for emacs i think that bell labs did, bell labs thinks even Vi is bloat :)
20:22:14 <ais523> I have seen non-bloated versions of Emacs (not GNU Emacs, some reimplementation)
20:22:18 <ais523> but they were basically useless
20:22:39 <ais523> it felt like notepad with Emacs key bindings
20:23:16 <ehird> mycroftiv: i just linked to it
20:23:21 <ehird> but they don't think vi is bloat
20:23:24 <ehird> they just think it's designed wrong
20:23:50 <ais523> I don't see how you can reasonably argue vi is bloated; you can argue that /vim/ is bloated, though
20:24:07 <ehird> ais523: vi is bloated because it does things that are not required to be integrated
20:24:11 <ehird> it's designed wrong, simply
20:24:16 <mycroftiv> ive actually come around to the Way of Ed now myself, i think its actually a great tool for quick and easy edits...which probably means ive crossed some sort of Event Horizon for how I work with computers, and nothing i say can even reach the external universe
20:24:20 <ehird> plan 9 kind of annoys me because they were so close to realising that the filesystem was just a redundant identifier for in-memory objects and they could unify them
20:24:32 <ehird> but the unix thinking held on that tiny bit longer :(
20:24:36 <ais523> esolangs challenge: looking at the titles of things in Recent Changes, figure out whether they're true or not
20:24:41 <mycroftiv> ehird: i agree that plan9 doesnt go 'all the way' with some of its ideas, and there is a lot of 'old unix' still in there
20:24:56 <ais523> but said true by mistake
20:25:12 <ais523> mycroftiv: learn TECO, that's what happened to ehird when he was going down the ed route
20:25:19 <mycroftiv> ehird: however, as a practical matter - it may be that doing 'a halfway job' and having things work as a pragmatic matter was still the right decision, plan9 is still evolving and being actively developed, so who knows what it will look like eventually
20:25:31 <ais523> and I've used sed for editing before, because I didn't know how to use vi, and didn't realise nano was installed
20:25:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: if you did s/plain text/in-memory entities/ and s/files/automatically-persisted entities/, Plan 9 would have that part down to a T
20:25:40 <ehird> they were so close
20:25:44 <ais523> (I'm quite a bit better at vi now, though, although I'm mostly still an emacs user)
20:26:27 <mycroftiv> ehird: its funny you say that - guess what software i am writing? its actually 'finished' to some extent - it is plan9 software that tries to extend from unix pipes to an abstraction called a 'Hub' that can be either static data or a flowing pipe, with an arbitrary number of readers and writers that can attach/detach freely
20:26:39 <mycroftiv> so i think the idea is something youd like
20:26:44 <ais523> ok, definitely definitely in the right channel
20:26:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: quite timely, actually, as we were just discussing unconventional operating systems
20:26:55 <ehird> how did you find us, anyway?
20:27:07 <ais523> although we'd probably move on to attempting to program with a bunch of hubs, and nothing else
20:27:24 <augur> have you heard orbitals cover of the doctor who theme?
20:27:38 <mycroftiv> well, im in some plan9 related channels and Robdgreat was in there, and we were talking and he mentioned this channel, and i said 'what? #esoteric? joining now!'
20:27:45 <augur> Plan 9 From Outer Space!
20:28:17 <ehird> my internal memory bank entry for "Robdgreat" is "RodgerTheGreat was a jerk and accused him of stealing his name when he didn't"
20:28:23 <ehird> I may have the first bias-inserting RAM ever
20:28:29 <mycroftiv> ais523: actually my ideas even do go in that direction, because i use hubs to do both gnu screen like functionality, and to put 'persistent processes' running in them, with the idea i can eventually make an environment where everything i do is just echo >hub that is 'hiding' the right app
20:28:42 <ehird> Robdgreat: i remember everything :D
20:29:00 <Robdgreat> I've used this name almost exclusively for about 12 years now
20:29:06 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat and Robdgreat are two different people?
20:29:09 <ais523> wow, that's confusing, I never realised
20:29:24 <augur> sounds like a very good basis for a trademark infringement lawsuit.
20:29:29 <mycroftiv> you guys conquered egypt awhile back right?
20:29:41 <ehird> ais523: you can tell because one's a dick
20:29:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:29:57 <ais523> ehird: to a first approximation, everyone on the Internet's a dick
20:30:08 <ehird> (I mostly dislike him because he was a total jerk to me for no reason and made arguments that hinge exactly on "haha, you're young, QED", but…)
20:30:33 <Robdgreat> well, the fact that you're young clearly invalidates your dislike for him
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20:44:11 <ehird> Just put in 100MB and be done with it.
20:44:15 <mycroftiv> i use ubuntu, you just want how much space is being used by the files there, or are you partitioning?
20:44:22 * ais523 Applications | Accessories | Disk Usage Analyzer
20:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I use 32 MB usually on arch
20:44:28 <ais523> just to annoy AnMaster, I'd use the command line normally
20:44:31 <FireFly> [21:44:10] (jonas@/boot)$ du -sh
20:44:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:44:54 <ehird> So, with a bit of leeway, put in 100MB.
20:44:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: "37M /boot" for my work-workstation, which is a 32-bit Ubuntu too.
20:45:04 <ehird> You HAVE got a thousand times that.
20:45:05 <ais523> 32-bit, I have an Ubuntu/Kubuntu hybrid here
20:45:20 <AnMaster> I'm used to /boot needing about 16 MB...
20:45:24 <Deewiant> On the school computer I'm IRCing from
20:45:28 <mycroftiv> mine is 27mb, but if i happen to be interested in doing kernel testing, it often may be several hundred mb with tons of kernels, so i think being parsimonious for /boot partition is silly unless your hdd is like a netbook or something
20:45:29 <AnMaster> whe the hell do they put on it
20:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Everything.
20:45:40 <ehird> So it works for everybody.
20:45:44 <Deewiant> Looks like it has 6 kernel versions
20:46:01 <fizzie> There's three kernels in my /boot; that's 3*~2.2 megs of kernels, 3*~1 megs of System.map, 3*~8.5 megs of initrd images, and 3*~0.5 meg "abi" files.
20:46:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it has all the kernel versions you've ever had installed, unless you explicitly clean up old ones
20:46:07 <ais523> together with all the devices
20:46:19 <ais523> oh, also backups of them
20:46:29 <fizzie> I guess since I don't own the workstation it's not actually "my" /boot.
20:46:33 <Deewiant> vmlinuz taking up about 3.4 megs, System.map taking 1.8 megs, initrd 8.4, "abi" 0.5
20:46:45 <ehird> oklopol: btw since we agree on how things should be manipulated and transformed and stuff in an OS, what kind of ui were you thinking of?
20:46:55 <Deewiant> And the somewhat irrelevant config of 89K each and vmcoreinfo of 1.2K each
20:47:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: And the memtest86+.bin of 122K!
20:47:30 <fizzie> Well, on this Ubuntu; maybe not in your case.
20:47:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's O(1) though, it doesn't count
20:47:44 <Deewiant> And yeah, it's on this machine too
20:47:45 <ehird> ais523: he only has a 32MB hard drive
20:47:54 <ehird> ais523: i'm joking
20:47:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Okay, so I'll store a DVD image there, it's just O(1)."
20:48:05 <ehird> ais523: he has 160000MB
20:48:16 <ehird> which means, of course, that 100MB is absolutely vital
20:48:22 <ais523> hmm... arguably, storing a DVD image in /boot might not be a bad idea
20:48:30 <ais523> if it was a liveDVD that mounted itself from disk
20:48:34 <Deewiant> fizzie: As long as you don't store a DVD image for every kernel, which would be incredibly wasteful
20:48:37 <ais523> that's got to be potentially useful for something
20:48:39 <ais523> I'm just not sure what it is
20:49:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: I store a different movie DVD for each kernel, every time something I feel goes well with that particular kernel.
20:49:20 <Deewiant> What movies do you currently have stored?
20:49:38 <ehird> his current one is Richard M. Stallman Eats Stuff Off of His Feet
20:50:10 <fizzie> And for the record, this workstation has a separate /boot partition, "df -h" says size 92M, used 42M, avail 45M.
20:51:30 <oklopol> ehird: i do not have one definite opinion on that, but basically there's a way to visualize an object, and there's a working set containing objects you want to manipulate, automatically fit on the screen.
20:51:50 <oklopol> but that's not really something i've thought 100% through.
20:51:53 <ehird> oklopol: how are objects visualised?
20:52:53 <mycroftiv> shouldnt that be modular and user configurable - i dunno what framework you guys were talking about, happy to be brought up to speed - but it seems like you ought to be able to have objects that act as data/display filters, and by choosing what of those are connected/mounted (whatever your semantics are) in the graphical namespace, you control the display?
20:52:54 <oklopol> what a simple and direct question.
20:53:01 <oklopol> let me think about that for a hour or so :P
20:53:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: pretty much
20:53:10 <ehird> my basic model is:
20:53:24 <ehird> objects and methods that manipulate them directly, standard stuff like "bitmap image" having rotate-by-amount
20:53:28 <ehird> views are, basically
20:53:31 <ehird> transformations of objects
20:53:40 <ehird> transforming an object into a visualisation
20:53:53 <ehird> transforming an object into a rotated version, via a dialog that asks for the amount
20:54:09 <ehird> so you can make generic visualisers that have hooks to let additional components add parts to them
20:54:13 <ehird> and also specialised visualisers
20:54:14 <mycroftiv> got anything like a semantics for a user command, or a system call in a language, for what applying those might look like?
20:54:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: i generally think graphical, commandline would probably just be the language itself
20:54:46 <ehird> since it's more challenging to try and apply it to blobs on the screen than just direct commands
20:54:55 <ehird> (because views are basically the interesting part)
20:54:59 <oklopol> ehird: and everything duck typed so that a view is just any object that responds to certain drawing commands?
20:55:10 <ehird> oklopol: it's more abstracted than that
20:55:10 <mycroftiv> im just thinking along the lines of 'how do i express the transformation/application' at whatever layer im working at if im coding the thing up
20:55:15 <ehird> a view isn't specifically GUI related
20:55:19 <ehird> although ofc you can add gui interfaces to them
20:55:26 <ehird> it describes the fundamental interaction, so to speak
20:55:41 <mycroftiv> ehird: right, i think thats excellent, the interfaces for applying the transofrmations and the concept of a 'view' as a mapping doesnt need to know anything about graphics specifically
20:55:41 <ehird> "FROM an object, TAKING a scale amount, TRANSFORMING INTO the rotation"
20:55:52 <ehird> and that can basically be used to make a variety of things
20:55:56 <ehird> a modal scale command,
20:56:02 <ehird> a slider that scales in real-time
20:56:09 <ehird> and you can add them as different interfaces to the transaction object
20:57:25 <mycroftiv> so, i take it you guys want some kind of abstracted type-safe (or typeless?) system where you can really hand any object to any other object safely, so to speak? if it 'doesnt make sense' you either get weird results or null, but its safe to try to always (apply X Y) or x(y) or however you like to express it
20:57:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: mine's duck typed
20:58:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: because you should be able to invent a new type of vector image representation on the fly
20:58:04 <ehird> and edit it immediately
20:58:08 <ehird> without defining interface boilerplate
20:58:11 <ehird> i _might_ add interface types
20:58:19 <ehird> so that you have the type "responds to this message with these parameters"
20:58:23 <oklopol> safety is easy, just don't give all objects access to all other objects.
20:58:26 <ehird> but i think that generally those just end up repeating the code
20:58:32 <ehird> but what oklopol said
20:58:36 <ehird> for actual security, capability-based
20:58:41 <ehird> for wantonly applying things to other things, go nuts
20:58:43 <ehird> you might get an error
20:58:57 <ehird> but if it royally messes up that object, just zap it
20:59:10 <mycroftiv> no reason not to have reversibility built in also
20:59:22 <mycroftiv> you should always be able to 'pop back' to the previous state before an operation
20:59:22 <ehird> erm, yes, very good reason
20:59:28 <ehird> well duh, of course undo
20:59:32 <ais523> you know the near-identical phone numbers in the SCO story? one of them just changes
20:59:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm going to restore every revision of every object, hopefully
20:59:49 <mycroftiv> ive been on that as a crusade for a bit
21:00:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: although i'll prefer to store the symbolic representation of the inverse operation when it's truly reversible
21:00:04 <oklopol> the great thing about logging is it's actually the ideal way to use your hd.
21:00:06 <mycroftiv> in my plan9 Hubfs, the idea is you can 'freeze' the pipe and then vac it to venti for deduplicative versioning at any point
21:00:11 <ehird> all your inverted HD movie
21:00:14 <ehird> would be stored along with the original
21:00:21 <ehird> oklopol: i'm totally optimising for SSD
21:00:30 <ehird> because i'm going orthogonal persistence
21:00:32 <ais523> ehird: optimise for ROM
21:00:33 <ehird> ram is harddisk, harddisk is ram
21:00:36 <ehird> ram is just the cache
21:00:43 <ais523> well, write-once memory
21:00:45 <ehird> jump over the plug? restart
21:00:51 <ehird> in a few seconds, your encode and processing tasks are going again
21:01:09 <ais523> orthogonal persistence = good, but ideally you should have orthogonal everything
21:01:25 <mycroftiv> ehird: how about abstracting away totally from the physical substrate, and pushing that down a layer? the os level semantics you just 'tag' your data with whether you want it to be persistent or nonpersistent, versioned or not, etc - and then the lower layers choose how to apply those requested conditions to whatever the actual storage is
21:01:40 <ehird> mycroftiv: nonono, everything is persistent
21:01:40 <ais523> anyway, here's my idea for what an OS should be able to do
21:01:42 <ehird> that's not up for debate
21:01:48 <ais523> you know how grep can add line numbers?
21:01:49 <ehird> you never lose anything unless you explicitly zap every single revision of it
21:01:56 <ais523> you should be able to run an input file through grep
21:01:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: how about 'no erase' at the os level then even?
21:02:01 <ais523> and /then/ add the line numbers afterwards
21:02:06 <mycroftiv> just like venti does it? version all the data, never delete
21:02:12 <ais523> it should remember where the lines came from so you can do that
21:02:19 <ehird> mycroftiv: it should be possible, in case you get some stupid files you don't want
21:02:24 <ehird> but it just shouldn't be common
21:02:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: think about the 'no delete' at os semantics option, because that is a huge security feature in some ways, in terms of data security and availability, if its impossible to mistakenly delete stuff
21:03:03 <ehird> there's no reason to do that
21:03:05 <ehird> it just restricts freedom
21:03:13 <mycroftiv> nah, it pushes the freedom down a layer
21:03:16 <ehird> mycroftiv: everything is inherently restricted, anyway
21:03:18 <ehird> capability security
21:03:22 <ehird> things can't wantonly delete your shit at all
21:03:48 <ehird> if the user wants to make a big fat drop-target that lets em drag any objects e wishes to it and instantly obliterates it, then e is a royal idiot
21:03:52 <ehird> and will promptly be allowed to do it
21:04:15 <mycroftiv> ill support 'worse is better' philosophy, sure - thats standard unix principles
21:04:24 <ehird> i just support freedom
21:04:35 <ehird> mycroftiv: you would have to explicitly give this object the ability to delete without qualification
21:04:38 <ehird> for it to work automatically
21:04:41 <mycroftiv> but isnt 'worse is better' actually about freedom?
21:04:52 <ehird> and you can't stop the user doing what e wants anyway
21:04:54 <mycroftiv> i thought the idea is 'keep the users freedom, even if that means allowing stupid things'
21:04:59 <ehird> if e wants to get rid of eir data
21:05:08 <ehird> Throw the harddrive out of the window; stomp on it.
21:05:22 <ehird> mycroftiv: worse is better is about the internal implementation simplicity beating correctness and a nice UI
21:05:24 <ehird> I don't fully agree
21:05:36 <ehird> because, well, the unix UI sucks because of it.
21:05:50 <ehird> anyway, brb. feel free to ping me, the messages will go into the mental Q
21:05:55 <ehird> by which i mean queue
21:05:56 <ais523> ehird: I think being opinionated about UIs is actually your most salient feature
21:06:09 <ais523> I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though
21:06:21 <mycroftiv> cool ideas, ill actually try to code what i can embodying them for plan9
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21:26:45 <ais523> heh, heading of one of the forum posts talking about SCO's latest complicated attempt to achieve something: "Is Germany in Japan, or is Japan in Europe?"
21:29:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ubuntu doesn't accept extents on ext4 partitions
21:30:06 <AnMaster> as in: installer doesn't accept it
21:32:24 <AnMaster> no package selection? what the hell. Means I have to remove manually after?
21:38:37 <Deewiant> It's UBUNTU for crying out loud
21:41:16 <ais523> Sgeo: the new feature in ext4
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21:53:26 <ehird> 20:32 AnMaster: no package selection? what the hell. Means I have to remove manually after?
21:53:30 <ehird> it means you don't remove after.
21:54:07 <ehird> 21:05 ais523: ehird: I think being opinionated about UIs is actually your most salient feature
21:54:22 <ehird> because I have to know that the internals are bad much less than I have to know the UI is bad
21:54:40 <ehird> and I don't like using software that makes me think meta-thoughts as opposed to the thoughts about what I'm doing
21:55:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> it means you don't remove after. <-- I don't want stuff like palm sync tools
21:55:35 <ehird> if you remove them you'll remove ubuntu-desktop
21:55:39 <ehird> which will break upgrades
21:55:42 <ehird> well, distro ugprades
21:55:47 <ehird> AnMaster: if you don't want htem
21:55:55 <ehird> they take what, a few meg?
21:56:01 <ehird> actually, AnMaster
21:56:06 <ehird> do you remove all the elisp files you don't use?
21:56:18 <ehird> or do you just let 5x5, life, ...
21:56:22 <ehird> stay around and simply not use them?
21:56:39 <ais523> removing ubuntu-desktop doesn't 'break upgrades'
21:56:45 <ais523> it just means you aren't automatically given the standard application set
21:56:55 <ehird> ais523: well, sort of
21:56:57 <ais523> as you're removing standard applications, you can't be...
21:56:59 <ehird> there's more stuff to it than that iirc
21:57:12 <AnMaster> anyway it generated a broken initramfs... *debugs*
21:57:45 <ehird> …I'm not sure AnMaster understands what Ubuntu is…
21:59:23 <ehird> you do know that when people steal your laptop they'll give up at the password prompt and install Windows?
21:59:37 <ehird> you do know that when people steal your laptop to steal your data they'll just physically threaten you for the key?
21:59:46 <AnMaster> how could they? bios password and boot order set to boot disk first
21:59:55 <AnMaster> it would be non-trivial to boot a windows install cd
22:00:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Then they'll just give up and dump it.
22:00:11 <ehird> Just as they would at the password screen.
22:00:18 <ehird> And, as I said, "you do know that when people steal your laptop to steal your data they'll just physically threaten you for the key?".
22:00:26 <ehird> Encrypting / on a laptop that's password-protected buys you precisely zilch.
22:00:59 <ais523> the usual trick if you want to get a laptop past, say, the TSA, is to set it to boot Windows with no timeout
22:01:03 <ais523> even though you normally use Linux
22:01:22 <oklopol> ehird: only assuming you cave in to the threats.
22:01:50 <ehird> oklopol: yeah, uh, when someone's repeatedly hitting you in the face with a baseball bat and knocking out your teeth, you're gonna tell them your encryption code
22:02:05 <ehird> or, you know, alternatively, die
22:02:11 <ehird> if your data is more important than your life
22:02:23 <oklopol> if i know the alternative is to die, then depends on the data.
22:02:25 <ais523> ehird: possibly I'd end up dying, my strongest password is so long and complicated I can't even spell it correctly more than 1 time in 3
22:02:44 <mycroftiv> data so secure, even you cant read it
22:02:46 <Sgeo> o.O ehird's a mod on Reddit?
22:02:51 <ehird> Sgeo: in /r/mspaint, yes.
22:02:58 <ehird> which is a rather… small corner of it.
22:03:17 <Sgeo> "a community for 6 hours"
22:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, seems you need alt install cd to make it work for ubuntu
22:03:30 <oklopol> ehird: anyway i'd say few people are actually willing to kill me for whatever data i may have
22:03:54 <ehird> AnMaster: apparently you haven't been listening to me
22:03:56 <oklopol> so i'd probably just assume they aren't going to kill me even if they tell me they are
22:04:08 <AnMaster> ehird, about not encrypting? No
22:04:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it provably has no forseeable benefit
22:04:17 <oerjan> oklopol: congratulations, you have now just about wrapped up the relevant xkcd comic :D
22:04:21 <ehird> in any case whatsoever
22:05:27 <oerjan> (your contribution being the hover text
22:06:26 <oklopol> anyway, after a few hits from a baseball bat, if still conscious, i'd be so full of adrenalin it would probably be much harder to get the passw out of me
22:06:55 <oerjan> that's why they drug you first, duh
22:06:58 <ehird> sans laws and ethical codes and with a nice amount of things to hit people with and drugs i'm pretty sure i could get your password out of you oklopol
22:07:29 <oklopol> but really depends on the data
22:07:56 <FireFly> As well as ehirds strength
22:07:59 <ehird> oklopol: i'm not sure you understand how drugs work
22:08:01 <oklopol> but of course there are things i'd die for.
22:08:06 <ehird> FireFly: i specifically specified things to hit people with
22:08:11 <oklopol> ehird: well right, depends on the drugs as well i guess :P
22:08:15 <ehird> like, oh, a powered chainsaw?
22:08:20 <Sgeo> There's not much I died for. Maybe if my dying would prevent deaths
22:08:27 * oerjan sort of thinks the idea that people can withstand torture by willpower is a myth, except he vaguely recalls reading that McCain did so...
22:08:29 <Sgeo> s/I died/I'd die/
22:08:30 <ehird> Sgeo: you never died for something?
22:09:01 <oklopol> yes, say there were instructions for killing the whole population of earth on my hd, i would die before giving those up.
22:09:34 <FireFly> Even if I met someone who had something dangerous to hit me with (say, a bat), I think still it depends partly on the strength
22:09:41 <ehird> AnMaster — doing things that can be proved to have no positive effect and just make things way harder for him since 2009.
22:09:45 <ehird> Hmm, no, probably all his life.
22:09:54 <ehird> FireFly: chainsaws aren't that heavy
22:09:58 <ehird> and you don't need much of a swing
22:10:14 <ehird> also slipping and dropping it adds to it ofc
22:10:44 <oklopol> also chainsaws suck for getting the truth out of someone
22:10:56 <oklopol> well i guess you could remove a hand or something
22:11:13 <ais523> I'd say it rather depends on how close you are to the nearest policeman
22:11:27 <ehird> ais523: "sans laws and ethical codes and with a nice amount of things to hit people with and drugs"
22:11:34 <ehird> besides, let's say the government approves
22:11:39 <ehird> they're unethical enough to
22:11:45 <ehird> oklopol: how much do you value your penis
22:12:04 <oklopol> a bit more than my hands prolly
22:12:13 <ehird> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
22:12:26 <oklopol> i value my brain the most, so you can't do much better than that baseball bat.
22:12:40 <ehird> oklopol: free trepanation services
22:12:45 <ehird> comes with free lobotomy
22:13:32 <oklopol> ehird: anyway, willing to die for stuff usually means you're willing to lose your penis for it
22:13:40 <ehird> oklopol: yes, intellectually
22:14:06 <ehird> AnMaster: so, care to provide one situation where encryption of a password-protected laptop actually has any advantage?
22:14:29 <oklopol> i am usually fairly intellectual under all sorts of torture; haven't been hit with baseball bats though
22:14:40 <ehird> oklopol: have you truly ever been really tortured
22:15:12 <oklopol> not really. but you do realize you don't really feel the pain after a few minutes
22:15:20 <AnMaster> no root pass is set? Seems insanely insecure
22:15:27 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't log in as root.
22:15:43 <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true
22:15:53 <AnMaster> I meant: use root password for sudo not user password
22:15:54 <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:16:00 <oklopol> right under gay sex and killing someone
22:16:01 <GregorR> `addquote <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:16:04 <HackEgo> 53|<oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:16:08 <AnMaster> in case someone looked and saw one password it would reduce the impact
22:16:13 <ehird> `append the gay sex bit
22:16:25 <ehird> AnMaster: you can do it, but you shouldn't and it is pointless
22:16:28 <ehird> i think you should not use ubuntu.
22:16:30 <oklopol> the great experiences of life
22:16:49 <ehird> oklopol: i don't think killing someone is a terribly great experience
22:16:50 <GregorR> oklopol: So for you, the great experiences are gay sex, killing someone and being tortured. Sounds like a fun night.
22:16:56 <ehird> unless your fun function is like destroysPsyche(x)
22:17:26 <GregorR> Basically he wants to be a BDSM slave to some guy, then break free and kill him.
22:17:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:17:34 <oklopol> well not just that, but how is having to fight not going insane not fun?
22:17:50 <ehird> i'm pretty sure directly killing someone is permanent damage.
22:17:56 <ehird> good luck not having trauma from that
22:18:10 <ehird> fighting not going insane sounds fun
22:18:24 <oklopol> i don't really believe in trauma
22:18:39 <ehird> oklopol: trauma believes in you.
22:19:11 <oklopol> but, then again some people seems to get traumatized forever from having someone have sex with them, so i guess i just shouldn't compare myself to humans.
22:19:30 <oerjan> oklopol: i think your problem is you think your ego is unbreakable/all of your psyche, and therefore you think resisting torture is merely about choosing not to give in
22:19:32 <ehird> oklopol: have you ever actually been raped :P
22:19:40 <ehird> lol good question eh
22:19:46 <ehird> s/eh\nehird/ehird/
22:19:49 <GregorR> But they love you, Charlie!
22:19:54 <ehird> oklopol: please tell me that was a joke
22:19:55 <oklopol> if i was a woman, i'd try it ofc
22:20:03 <GregorR> But they care about you, Charlie!
22:20:11 <ehird> you know that women have raped men and men have raped men, right, oklopol?
22:20:18 <ehird> i mean i assume you're joking.
22:20:41 <oklopol> also horses have raped people
22:20:48 <ehird> i don't think that's happened.
22:21:04 <oklopol> there was this guy, not that long ago, died of it
22:21:18 <ehird> that was more like the guy making the horse fuck him.
22:21:26 <ehird> as opposed to, la la la, bending over naked in front of a horse
22:21:28 <oklopol> right, the accident was with a bull
22:21:30 <ehird> is that a horse penis?
22:21:34 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
22:21:59 <oklopol> anyway no i was not joking, i'm pretty sure there's no way for me to get raped.
22:22:16 <ehird> oklopol: well first step someone overpowers you
22:22:21 <ehird> then they fuck you
22:22:29 <oklopol> if i was a woman, i believe it might be possible. for instance i know women who have been raped, i don't know guys who have even ever feared they might get raped.
22:22:32 <ehird> the third law of physics
22:22:35 <ehird> "oklopol cannot be raped"
22:22:40 <oklopol> err, right, it's physically possible
22:22:47 <oklopol> i'm just saying it's unlikely it'll happen
22:22:48 <ehird> oklopol: Here you go:
22:22:49 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=man+raped&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
22:22:57 <ehird> Man was raped and beaten by a former lover, High Court hears - 19 hours ago
22:22:57 <ehird> BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Man 'raped and beaten by lover'
22:23:00 <ehird> Man 'gang-raped' by 3 women: News24: SouthAfrica: News
22:23:21 <oklopol> seriously, i'm not saying it's impossible
22:23:29 <oklopol> i'm just saying it's like winning the lottery.
22:23:51 <ehird> oklopol: not rly, just be BFFs w/ creepy fuck
22:23:54 <oklopol> yeah getting raped by women would be really negative :P
22:23:58 <ehird> and get 'em obsessed over you
22:24:03 <ehird> and make them go insane
22:24:10 <ehird> that should do the trick
22:24:48 <oklopol> that sounds like a lot of work
22:25:22 <oklopol> anyway you can't seriously be saying being male doesn't affect *tons* on the odds of getting raped
22:25:54 <oklopol> yeah but it's not like "women are stupid", it's more like "women have vaginas", sure some men have too, but...
22:25:58 <ehird> but i'm (100% - epsilon) sure that if you're a member of homo sapiens sapiens and you're raped, you will be psychologically damaged by it
22:27:08 <ehird> oklopol: it's worth noting that you're just a crazy guy and most people include psychologists, people who have been raped, ... probably rapists ...
22:28:00 <oklopol> i'm not saying most people don't get traumatized over something like that, i'm saying i wouldn't
22:28:29 * Sgeo would be scared that he'd get an incurable STD
22:29:01 <oklopol> you can get that from sex anyway
22:29:47 <oklopol> also you can just check, no reason to be traumatized over it.
22:29:53 <Sgeo> In a consensual situation, I'd use a condom
22:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the ubuntu equivilent of rc.local? And yes I really need it. Because I need to do some stuff you can't otherwise
22:30:08 <Sgeo> And I and my partner would be checked for STDs first
22:30:31 <AnMaster> huh it has rc.local how could I miss it
22:30:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, battery management can be managed via the preferences.
22:31:15 <oklopol> they're just kinda in the way
22:31:15 <AnMaster> ehird, Thinkpad specific settings. And not in settings
22:31:38 <AnMaster> to prevent fully charging in order to prolong battery life. As recommended by both IBM and Lenovo
22:32:17 <oklopol> is there anything you can try at home that'd traumatize you? :P
22:32:43 <ehird> oklopol: kill whoever else is in it
22:32:47 <ehird> or, you know, yourself
22:32:47 <oerjan> any genuinely life-threatening accident?
22:33:45 <oklopol> i'm alone atm, and i don't think dying would be very traumatizing :P
22:33:58 <AnMaster> ehird, so what do you mean it can be done the normal way? it can't
22:34:21 <ehird> oklopol: sure would be if you watch
22:34:22 <oerjan> i would imagine humans have pretty strong instincts against doing anything to themselves that is traumatizing...
22:36:24 <oklopol> my father is kind of a drunk, i've fought him a few times, that usually traumatized me until i walked out of the house and went to buy coffee
22:37:22 <oklopol> after a few hours he calls and is like omg are you moving out the house, and i'm reading my database book and am like what are you talking about :D
22:37:39 <ehird> sounds like a very functional family
22:38:38 <AnMaster> yay an OOPS in the wlan driver. At least the kernel arch used was new enough to not OOPS there
22:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: so why are you using ubuntu if you just want to complain about it
22:38:58 <oerjan> ehird: that's above average functionality in finland you know
22:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: then don't.
22:39:15 <ehird> it just doesn't work how you want
22:39:47 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm fairly sure my relationship with my parents is better than average in all countries
22:40:01 <oklopol> my life is perfect in all senses
22:40:09 <ehird> i wish my life was perfect
22:40:44 <oklopol> just tell your brain it is
22:41:11 <ehird> oklopol: my subconscious has veto powers
22:41:43 <oklopol> i don't think my brain control was very good until like a few years ago when i started learning it actively
22:42:04 <oerjan> i was going to say it was the evil body-snatching gnomes, but they vetoed it.
22:42:28 <oklopol> but it takes surprisingly little effort to learn to be happy
22:43:31 <oklopol> more coffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
22:44:01 <ehird> oklopol: you should make lessons dude
22:44:03 <ehird> on how to be so fucking happy
22:44:19 <ehird> you said you're in awe at trees all the time, i can't even be in awe of… an awey thing :|
22:44:22 <ehird> i'd totally pay like
22:44:24 <ehird> $10000000000000000000000000000000
22:44:33 <oklopol> being happy is easy, stuff like stopping itching is much harder
22:44:52 <Asztal> but aren't you in awe of his ability to be in awe?
22:44:54 <oerjan> wait, you know how to stop itching?
22:45:03 <oklopol> i told about that ages ago
22:45:17 <oklopol> right after i realized i could stop hiccups by just deciding to
22:45:18 <AnMaster> what is the package for stuff like gcc binutils and such
22:45:31 <AnMaster> build-essentials or something right?
22:45:48 <AnMaster> can't find it in synaptics though
22:45:50 <ehird> Asztal: that is true
22:45:53 <oklopol> i still can't stop a yawn from coming though :D
22:45:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not in Install/Remove
22:46:06 <ehird> one is just a super-easy installer for gui software
22:46:08 <ehird> the other's in Administration
22:46:13 <ehird> and is a full package manager
22:46:21 <ehird> AnMaster: build-essential
22:46:24 <oklopol> a few weeks ago i decided to do it, for two hours i held it in, but it just kept trying to come until finally i got tired
22:46:30 <ehird> just installreate it
22:46:48 <oklopol> but yawning has always been my weak spot, i sometimes yawn for hours because i just can't stop
22:47:07 <ehird> oklopol: do you exaggerate how awesome your life is for irc
22:48:22 <oklopol> i do enjoy having true stories people just dismiss as the ramblings of a mythomaniac
22:49:05 <oklopol> shit can't stop yawning :D
22:49:30 <ehird> oklopol: why do you pay attention to what shit does?
22:50:11 <ehird> no aka coprophillia
22:50:43 <GregorR> Poor coppro and his poor name choice :P
22:50:47 <oklopol> i thought you were referring to the fact scato is used more commonly for phagia, and copro for the philia
22:50:57 <ehird> i'll phage your philia
22:51:00 <ehird> if you know what i mean
22:52:58 <oklopol> i'm actually quite an enthusiast of all kinds of mental disorders, maybe because i've always wanted to be insane
22:53:20 <ehird> oklopol: but if you were insane you couldn't properly enjoy thinking about mental disorders
22:53:47 <oerjan> he could be a MAD SCIENTIST
22:53:49 <oklopol> i mean many people consider me insane, but i function pretty well under most situations, i'd prefer something that's actually classified a mental disorder
22:54:01 <ehird> oklopol: you're just insane enough anyway
22:54:10 <oklopol> yeah i think i have a pretty good amount
22:54:13 <ehird> you're completely bonkers but can point this out and discuss the bonkers at a meta-level
22:54:20 <ehird> thus making you sane but crazy.
22:54:35 <oklopol> i'm very tempted to fuse those words together now.
22:55:21 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, that would be awesome
22:56:04 <oklopol> well, most mad scientists in comics and stuff are all about destroying the world, i prefer the real world kind that's only interested in some incredibly useless subsubject
22:56:31 <oerjan> hey that's no fun. at least build an orbital death ray!
22:56:35 <ehird> but being interested in only one thing is boooooooring
22:57:13 <oklopol> ehird: well true, while i'm not sure i'll ever actually try killing anyone, it would be nice to try out at least a few kinds of lives.
22:57:39 <ehird> oklopol: i cannot figure out how those clauses fit together
22:57:54 <oklopol> i realized i left out a few logical steps
22:58:09 <oklopol> but i thought hey, who cares he's a smart dude he'll come up with something
22:58:37 <ehird> oklopol: my brain made the mental association "this guy is obsessed with killing people and taking their identities"
22:58:39 <ehird> while you're not sure you'd ever kill anyone
22:58:40 <ehird> thus going through with it
22:58:45 <ehird> so that you can assume their identity
22:58:48 <ehird> and try out new lives
22:59:15 <oerjan> hm clearly what oklopol needs there is a body snatching device
22:59:23 <ehird> oklopol: how wrong am I?
22:59:27 <oklopol> basically, my todo list would probably be less broad than the one i joked about earlier, but it's how i'd like to structure my life, trying stuff out.
22:59:32 <oerjan> i should ask the gnomes if they do mail order
22:59:46 <oklopol> but it's true that was probably not deduceable from what i actually said.
23:00:27 <oklopol> not sure that was still very clear
23:00:34 <ehird> oklopol: i prefer my interpretation, don't you?
23:00:36 <oerjan> nothing is deduceable, logic is a lie
23:00:40 <ehird> there's much more of a link between the two
23:01:51 <ehird> oklopol: is it now your new life goal :P
23:02:31 <oklopol> ehird: i'm not sure i like it that much :)
23:03:30 <ehird> my mind worked on it hard for about a second
23:04:01 <oklopol> how hard is it to get a pilot's license usually?
23:04:14 <oklopol> i mean on a scale from driving license to astronaut
23:04:31 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd get that but never drive a car
23:05:11 <oklopol> or get a driver's license at like 40 like my dad did
23:05:56 <ehird> oklopol: astronaut is just pushing some buttons in a cabin
23:06:09 <oklopol> probably because of that he's the kind of driver who waits for 10 minutes, then finds another route, if the traffic light is jammed at red, and there are no other cars in sight.
23:06:40 <oklopol> ehird: well the probably job is, i agree like totally completely, but i'm talking about the training
23:06:55 <ehird> astronaut training:
23:07:01 <ehird> "This button does this, that one does that, blah blah."
23:07:05 <ehird> "Also, you're going to the moon."
23:07:37 <oklopol> i mean driving license takes like 30-300 hours, kind of a rough estimate, i'm not exactly an expert, astronauts train for like... many years, right?
23:08:13 <ehird> more like 3 seconds
23:09:17 <oklopol> weird i could've sworn it was took at least like a crash course in vegas
23:09:26 <pikhq> You can get a pilot's license in a couple of weeks if you insist on it.
23:09:45 <pikhq> (that is, if you fly every weekday)
23:09:52 <ehird> i want a Go Anywhere The Fuck You Want To pilot's license
23:10:01 <ehird> you can get in your plane and start it and fly wherever and just touchdown and get out
23:10:10 <ehird> *Wherever, not Anywhere
23:10:27 <ehird> like, find a nice little island hanging around?
23:10:50 <GregorR> I have just decided that I'm going to spell "advise" as "advize". Screw you, UK. So I would advize you to use something other than an Airplane if you want to do that.
23:10:56 <pikhq> ehird: That's a basic pilot's license, flying in the right lanes using visual information.
23:10:58 <oerjan> ehird: they tried that, but unfortunately they had some trouble getting north korea to sign on the scheme
23:11:19 <ehird> as long as you don't hit things
23:11:35 <pikhq> Oh, counting other countries, eh? Good luck with that. ;)
23:11:35 <oklopol> pikhq: do you have one? :)
23:11:54 <ehird> pikhq: yeah; also islands and shit
23:12:00 <ehird> it'd just be awesome to go anywhere.
23:12:12 <GregorR> And ... the Andromeda galaxy?
23:12:13 <ehird> but the ocean yes.
23:12:38 <pikhq> I want a FTL spaceship.
23:12:52 <ehird> why do you want a spaceship designed to lose
23:13:20 <oklopol> pikhq: is ftl for the lose in that?
23:13:45 <oklopol> well that's just confusing.
23:13:55 <pikhq> Faster than 1 L/T.
23:16:36 <ehird> http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html ← ooh interesting challenge
23:17:01 <HackEgo> * putrefaction: a state of decay usually accompanied by an offensive odor \ * decompose: break down; "The bodies decomposed in the heat" \ * decomposition: (biology) the process of decay caused by bacterial or fungal action
23:18:08 <oklopol> btw turns out i don't have to vacuum the flies just yet, the rest of this house's population is sick, and isn't coming home for a week \o/
23:18:46 <oklopol> i should go socialize with them right away
23:19:14 <ehird> pull the third element to the front
23:20:05 <ehird> i could combine y and z pretty easily
23:21:01 * oerjan mumbles something about bit size and information content
23:21:34 <ehird> combine top two >r >r
23:21:45 <ehird> basically get the two back out again separated
23:21:58 <oklopol> so umm what do those R things do?
23:22:07 <ehird> oklopol: >r pushes top to return stack
23:22:09 * oerjan mumbles more forcefully
23:22:11 <ehird> r> pushes return stack to thingy
23:22:22 <ehird> oerjan: why not assume bignums :P
23:22:43 <ehird> oklopol: I think R@ is R> without the pop
23:22:43 <oklopol> err, guess i don't know what return stack is.
23:22:46 <ehird> i.e. just top of return stack
23:22:51 <ehird> oklopol: basically another stack
23:22:55 <ehird> it also has return addresses but you can ignore that
23:23:27 <oklopol> when the function returns, are its contents pushed on the data stack or something?
23:23:39 <ehird> oklopol: erm return stack doesn't contain return values
23:23:44 <ehird> it contains addresses to jump to to return
23:23:56 <ehird> oklopol: basically you want to leave the return stack as you came in to the word with
23:24:00 <ehird> otherwise shit will fuck up
23:24:07 <ehird> you can just use it as a zero-sum secondary stack
23:24:47 <oklopol> thought it might be used for having another stack where zero-sum is somehow enforced automatically; whatever that means
23:25:18 <ehird> oklopol: : DUP >R R@ R> ; explains it
23:25:20 <ehird> put at return stack
23:25:23 <ehird> top of return stack
23:25:24 <ehird> pop from return stack
23:25:30 <ehird> oklopol: also no bignums
23:25:40 <oklopol> well yeah, i know that much about forth
23:26:52 * ehird realises how to stop AnMaster using Ubuntu
23:26:57 <ehird> AnMaster: they disabled control-alt-backspace.
23:27:01 <oklopol> although i guess i could just read the definition
23:27:12 <ehird> oklopol: x y → x y x
23:27:14 <oerjan> : ROT >R SWAP R> SWAP ;
23:27:22 <ehird> oerjan: that uses swap.
23:27:32 <ehird> oerjan: does it work?
23:27:44 <ehird> oerjan: post it as a comment, anyway
23:27:57 <ehird> pikhq: i've hit it accidentally before, plus you can go to the console to restart X
23:28:15 <ehird> ETHNIC PURGING OF THE UNSANITARY ELEMENTS!
23:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I know how to enable ctrl-alt-backspace btw
23:28:57 <oerjan> hm, the SWAP implementation looks complicated
23:29:01 <AnMaster> well maybe not with no xorg.conf
23:29:04 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you using ubuntu? you're just reversing everything they've done
23:29:13 <ehird> seems very pointless.
23:29:34 <AnMaster> ehird, because things works mostly for the hardware
23:29:44 <ehird> would in debian too, and you'd complain less.
23:29:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm only changing some stuff
23:29:52 <oerjan> ehird: using the other definitions on the page, that'll surely be more than 50 words when expanded :(
23:29:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I like debian even less
23:30:08 <AnMaster> ehird, and it feels less integrated
23:30:13 <ehird> oerjan: maybe he doesn't mean expanded
23:30:23 <ehird> AnMaster: did you remove that palm stuff?
23:30:28 <ehird> sounds like you don't care about integration.
23:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit odd installing something like the svn *client* pulls in mysql *server*
23:30:43 <oerjan> otoh shouldn't you be able to do SWAP with some other trick
23:30:53 <oerjan> without going by that horrible OVER
23:31:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you hated mysql too
23:31:36 <ehird> : swap dup >r + r> swap - ;
23:31:41 <AnMaster> oh also installed lyx pulled in over 700 MB.... Sure that includes texlive, but texlive isn't THAT large
23:31:50 <ehird> oklopol: oerjan did that for rot
23:31:56 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, texlive IS that large
23:32:05 <ehird> oerjan: plz don't think about swap
23:32:13 <oklopol> i didn't know it was trivial before i tried it
23:32:13 <ehird> might pick up your pesky brain waves
23:32:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no texlive is around 300 MB installed iirc
23:33:43 <ehird> oerjan: i think that's the simplest way to swap
23:34:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Aptitude is not recommended any more.
23:34:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't have a gui at all though
23:34:26 <ehird> Anyway, aptitude = synaptic, in semantics.
23:34:48 <AnMaster> ehird, aptitude seems to have more advanced features. Couldn't get regex search to work in synaptic
23:34:58 <oklopol> ehird: so what are the exact rules, 50 without using anything but >R, R>, R@ and -?
23:35:37 <ehird> oklopol: yah, pretty much
23:35:44 <ehird> oerjan: : swap >r dup r> + ; is a b → a a+b
23:42:34 <ehird> oerjan: you can think about it now
23:42:38 <oklopol> length of that solution is 54
23:43:00 <ehird> oklopol: just come up with a swap dood
23:43:10 <ehird> oklopol: also it's words not chars btw
23:43:36 <ehird> AnMaster: synaptic has everything
23:43:43 <AnMaster> ehird, where is regex search then
23:43:45 <ehird> anyway regex search is… you're… i can't even think of one use
23:44:09 <AnMaster> instead of packages containing ttf in the middle too
23:44:15 <AnMaster> ehird, there were some with ttf in the middle too
23:44:18 <ehird> ttf- in the middle won't be very common.
23:44:33 <AnMaster> ehird, stuff like -mode$ to find all emacs modes (plus some more)
23:44:42 <AnMaster> other stuff contains -mode- too
23:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you so hate optional advanced features
23:45:37 <ehird> <AnMaster> Blah blah I want this <ehird> do this <AnMaster> What about THIS? Ha! <ehird> You can do that by doing this <AnMaster> WHY ARE YOU SO HATEFUL
23:46:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I think your solutions are suboptimal
23:46:18 <AnMaster> and why *prevent* users from using regex if they want
23:46:20 <FireFly> AnMaster, apt-get install ttf-*tab tab*
23:46:26 <ehird> Yeah, "emacs mode" might return a FUCKING CHICKEN.
23:46:29 <ehird> No wait, it'll return emacs modes.
23:46:42 <oklopol> >R >R >R R@ R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R> R> >R >R R@ R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R>
23:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried looking for "plan9" and didn't find the user space plan 9 thing. Nor was "plan 9" very useful. And both returned lots of irrelevant results
23:47:15 <AnMaster> so there a regex to match more strictly would have been useful
23:47:20 <ehird> That's because plan 9 from user space isn't in the repos.
23:47:24 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah but i just removed a random amount of them so it's under 50
23:47:36 <ehird> AnMaster: That's a different rc.
23:47:39 <ehird> A different version.
23:47:46 <AnMaster> ehird, says it is from plan9 though
23:47:46 <oklopol> i refuse to actually find a local optimum, and i definitely refuse to make a solution from scratc.
23:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: it's another port.
23:47:58 <ehird> P9fUS is distributed as one, in-tree build and nothing else.
23:48:07 <ehird> oklopol: is that swap?
23:48:15 <AnMaster> ehird, even gentoo has a package for plan9port
23:48:21 <ehird> oklopol: make swap
23:48:48 * AnMaster hopes wlan works after this sleep
23:48:51 <oklopol> i just substituted the definitions in.
23:48:52 <pikhq> Jebus. Dick Cheney wanted to use the military for "terrorism" arrests.
23:48:57 <pikhq> Read: Army troops and tanks.
23:49:04 <ehird> Dick Cheney should star in porn.
23:49:16 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… I Want Your "Cheney" In Me
23:49:29 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Anti-Terrorism Enforcement
23:49:37 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Martial Law in the Bedroom
23:49:46 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Sexual Shooting
23:50:55 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in... The Patriot "Act"
23:51:35 <ehird> FireFly: oops, sorry
23:51:40 <ehird> oerjan: But this is redundantly redundant.
23:51:47 <oklopol> ehird: oh actually, forgot to substitute +'s definition in; probably can't get under 50 without thinking then
23:51:58 <ehird> oklopol: i don't care about rot
23:52:00 <ehird> oklopol: i care about swap
23:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, the vol+/- buttons work. But not the mute one
23:52:29 <AnMaster> so I guess I have to dig in ACPI stuff to make it work
23:52:55 <FireFly> No one needs a mute button
23:53:13 <FireFly> I have a mute button on the controller for the speakers
23:53:38 <FireFly> And the play/pause keyboard key for play/pausing Amarok
23:55:04 <AnMaster> the mute button works but isn't reflected in alsamixer
23:55:16 <ehird> AnMaster: ubuntu uses pulseaudio, btw.
23:55:26 <ehird> so you should look at PA stuff instead of alsa when possible.
23:56:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I was going to do real time sound stuff... that means jack.
23:56:08 <AnMaster> but maybe that isn't a good idea
23:56:15 <ehird> AnMaster: OSSv4, man!
23:56:29 <ehird> Tiny latency, great quality, low resource usage.
23:56:33 <ehird> ALSA compatibility.
23:56:35 <AnMaster> atm I'm using jack on my desktop
23:56:45 <ehird> I'm not sure OSSv4 is so easy on Ubuntu
23:56:45 <AnMaster> but I seriously considered changing to OSSv4
23:56:54 <ehird> and there are concerns about the code quality but that's not really important
23:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't on gentoo either iirc!
23:57:16 <ehird> well it could be done it'd just require some rewiring
23:57:19 <ehird> and a custom kernel
23:57:29 <ehird> well not custom kernel
23:57:32 <ehird> you know what i mean
23:57:44 <ehird> ossv4 is a kernel module
23:59:08 <ehird> my mouse is transparent and has a little annoying red LED inside
23:59:13 <ehird> wonder if I could open it up and take it out
23:59:38 <ehird> could remove one of the pins from the scrollwheel while i'm at it to make it smoother and quieter
00:14:02 <GregorR> With somebody else's blood?
00:14:07 <ehird> paint it with semen!
00:14:26 <Robdgreat> you sure you want to do that again?
00:14:36 <ehird> GregorR: I mean sailors, sheesh.
00:14:39 <ehird> Robdgreat: do… what?
00:14:51 <GregorR> ehird: On the Internet, everybody can see you spell :P
00:15:10 <ehird> Robdgreat: What do I need to be sure about whether I'm doing?!
00:15:30 <ehird> …I've done that in the past?
00:15:36 <GregorR> Paint it with seaman semen?
00:15:44 <oerjan> traumatic amnesia, clearly
00:15:54 <ehird> GregorR: Or mushroom mushroom
00:17:23 <ehird> wow the TNN 500AF looks like it can handle a lot
00:17:31 <ehird> solid state cooling is <3
00:18:14 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
00:20:09 <oerjan> now why the heck are they speaking spanish and not italian?
00:20:54 <GregorR> `translate SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
00:20:56 <HackEgo> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE (WHEN MUSSOLINI WINS WORLD): <ehird> i can only conclude that it is defective, or the world is absolutely insane. All glory to Il Duce!
00:21:10 <GregorR> `translateto it IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE (WHEN MUSSOLINI WINS WORLD): <ehird> i can only conclude that it is defective, or the world is absolutely insane. All glory to Il Duce!
00:21:12 <HackEgo> IN UN SUPPLENTE UNIVERSO (QUANDO MUSSOLINI WINS MONDO): <ehird> posso solo concludere che č difettoso, o il mondo č assolutamente folle. Tutti gloria a Il Duce!
00:22:31 <oklopol> ehird: >R >R R@ R> R@ - - R@ R> -
00:22:37 <ehird> oklopol: god that's beautiful
00:22:41 <ehird> oklopol: post it as a comment
00:23:23 <GregorR> `translateto it Come on baby, get on the floor, everybody do the dinosaur!
00:23:24 <HackEgo> Vieni bambino, arrivare sul pavimento, non tutti i dinosauri!
00:23:40 <GregorR> `translate Vieni bambino, arrivare sul pavimento, non tutti i dinosauri!
00:23:42 <HackEgo> Come on baby, get on the floor, not all dinosaurs!
00:23:53 <oerjan> oklopol: i think there's an error
00:23:54 <GregorR> So close, and yet so far :P
00:24:32 <ehird> GregorR: i've just finished laughing at "not all dinosaurs"
00:25:04 <ehird> `translateto kr My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:06 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:11 <ehird> Korean, you stupid HackEgo.
00:25:26 <ehird> `translateto ko My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:28 <FireFly> Hungarian would be more interesting
00:25:32 <ehird> `translate 내 호버 뱀장어으로 가득 차있다.
00:25:33 <HackEgo> ë, 'í ~ ¸ ë ² "ë ± € ìž ¥ ì-'ìœ ¼ ë ¡œ ê ° € ë" ì ° ¨ ìžë <¤.
00:25:40 <ehird> GregorR: kinda broken fail
00:25:45 <ehird> also, kinda unescape html fail
00:25:50 <FireFly> `translateto hu My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:51 <HackEgo> Saját légpárnás tele van angolnából.
00:25:58 <ehird> `translate Saját légpárnás tele van angolnából.
00:25:59 <HackEgo> Saja la t ĄĄŠ GPa RNA and is full of eels ĄĄba ł l.
00:26:15 <ehird> Well, that worked well
00:26:18 <GregorR> Yes, it has issues POSTING unicode.
00:26:33 * oerjan wonders why that contains "angol", which means english iirc
00:26:36 <ehird> GregorR: Also, " and < and > are left escaped.
00:26:55 <ehird> oerjan: pejorative insult, obviously
00:27:02 <GregorR> `translateto it Open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk the dinosaur!
00:27:04 <HackEgo> Apri la porta, ottenere sul pavimento, a piedi tutti i dinosauri!
00:27:09 <oerjan> `translate angol nyelv
00:27:12 <GregorR> `translate Apri la porta, ottenere sul pavimento, a piedi tutti i dinosauri!
00:27:14 <HackEgo> Open the door, get on the floor, walk all the dinosaurs!
00:27:46 <GregorR> Woooh, walk all the dinosaurs.
00:28:06 <ehird> laughter #2 complete
00:28:08 <oerjan> on their feet, all the dinosaurs
00:28:31 <ehird> `translateto ko Open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk to the dinosaur!
00:28:37 <ehird> `translate , 바닥에 문 열어, 공룡을 모두 도보로!
00:28:39 <HackEgo> , Ë ° "ë <¥ ì-ë ¬ ¸ ì-'ì-', ê ³ μë £ ¡ì" ë ª ¨ ë' ë "ë ³ 'ë ¡œ!
00:28:47 <ehird> `translateto fi Open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk to the dinosaur!
00:28:49 <HackEgo> Avaa ovi, pההstה lattialle, kaikki kהvelymatkan pההssה dinosaurus!
00:28:58 <ehird> That's sort of more Hebrew than I'd like.
00:29:03 <ehird> I was thinking more along the lines of Finnish.
00:29:06 <ehird> `translate Avaa ovi, pההstה lattialle, kaikki kהvelymatkan pההssה dinosaurus!
00:29:07 <HackEgo> Avaa ovi, p × "×" st × "lattialle, kaikki k ×" velymatkan p × "×" ss × "dinosaurus!
00:29:33 <GregorR> `translateto he I forget if 'he' is Hebrew ...
00:29:35 <HackEgo> אם אני שוכח 'הוא' היא עברית ...
00:29:52 <FireFly> `translateto sw Hello, world!
00:29:57 <FireFly> `translateto sv Hello, world!
00:29:58 <ehird> `translateto se Hello, world!
00:30:05 <GregorR> `transalteto se Are you looking for Swedish?
00:30:14 <ehird> `translateto se My cousin is a meerkat of strange angles.
00:30:15 <HackEgo> My cousin is a meerkat of strange angles.
00:30:28 <ehird> FireFly: I thought "salt" was the output for a scond :D
00:30:42 <ehird> of course just echoing it isn't much better
00:30:56 <oerjan> ah, apparently angolna is hungarian for eel
00:31:40 <GregorR> That's too hilarious for words.
00:32:53 <ehird> http://imgur.com/8cMmA.jpg
00:34:27 <ehird> GregorR: it was made in ms paint by a redditor guy.
00:34:35 <ehird> Other shit: http://www.reddit.com/r/mspaint/
00:38:28 <ehird> ("Shit" being in the bad meaning here, on second thoughts :P)
00:40:12 <oerjan> GregorR: it gets even better, angolnák can apparently mean either english or eels, at least google uses both when i experiment
00:40:34 <ehird> `translate angolnák angolnák
00:40:48 <GregorR> Are we learning that to truly appreciate this sketch by Monty Python, you have to be bilingual in English and Hungarian.
00:41:53 <FireFly> That's actually interesting
00:42:05 <ehird> GregorR: add a translatefromto
00:42:08 <ehird> for those pesky cases
00:42:43 <ehird> …or just a translatefrom but that's easier given translatefromto :P
00:43:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/translateto
00:43:42 <ehird> Was that a subtle hint :P
00:43:50 <GregorR> No, that was the easiest way for me to get that URL.
00:44:57 <GregorR> `fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1507393
00:44:58 <HackEgo> 2009-07-25 23:44:58 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1507393 [555] -> "1507393" [1]
00:45:12 <GregorR> `run mv "1507393" bin/translatefromto; dos2unix bin/translatefromto; chmod 0755 bin/translatefromto
00:45:20 <GregorR> `translatefromto en es Hello
00:45:36 <GregorR> `translatefromto es fr Hola
00:45:42 <Asztal> did somebody say something about bilingual in English and Hungarian? :P
00:46:07 <Asztal> [btw, they didn't actually speak Hungarian in the phrasebook sketch :(]
00:47:06 <oerjan> Asztal: angolnák certainly can mean eels, but can it also mean english or is google mistaken? i recall a -nak but not a -nák ending
00:47:31 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en angolnak angolnak
00:47:43 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en angolnak angolnak angolnak
00:47:45 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en angolnak angolnak angolnák
00:47:46 <GregorR> Asztal: No, but you would have to know what the Hungarian is for what they said, and know Hungarian well enough to figure out the off-by-a-syllable-or-so stuff and see what it was "supposed" to say.
00:48:00 <ehird> oerjan: angolnak = english; angolnák = eel
00:48:06 <FireFly> So it's the difference of a ´?
00:48:19 <ehird> If you trust Google Translate.
00:48:34 <GregorR> GOOGLE TRANSLATE IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR
00:48:45 <GregorR> `translateto ko GOOGLE TRANSLATE IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR
00:48:59 <ehird> `translate Google 번역 나의 주 예수 그리스도는
00:49:00 <oerjan> ehird: except it said English for both in my browser when i did angol(n[áá]k) angolnák
00:49:00 <HackEgo> Google ë ˛ ě-ë, ~ ě ~ ě Ł ź ě ~ ě ~ ę ¸ ë | Ź ě ¤ ë "ë"
00:49:09 <ehird> `translatefromto ko en Google 번역 나의 주 예수 그리스도는
00:49:14 <Asztal> quick summary: angol = english, -nak can be a dative suffix; angolna = eel, -k is a plural suffix (and the 'a' becomes 'á')
00:49:21 <GregorR> If anybody wants to figure out how to fix that, that'd be sweet :P
00:49:48 <ehird> GregorR: send header w/ "im utf8 bitch! lol"
00:49:58 <ehird> also s/</</ etc
00:50:02 <GregorR> Asztal: And hovercraft? :P
00:50:08 <Asztal> the best translations can be found at http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/hovercraft.htm
00:50:29 <ehird> "Tagalog: Puno ng palos ang aking hoberkrap/hovercraft"
00:51:04 <ehird> `translateto hu My English hovercraft is full of English eels
00:51:05 <HackEgo> Saját angol légpárnás teli angol angolna
00:51:40 <ehird> `translate Saját angol légpárnás teli angol angola
00:51:41 <HackEgo> Saja Ąt Š the English GPa and a full english ĄĄRNA Angola
00:52:00 <ehird> `translate angolnak angolnák
00:52:06 <GregorR> http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/useful.htm This = hilarious :P
00:52:07 * oerjan doesn't see a suffix for "My" there...
00:52:16 <oerjan> that would be -m or -k, iirc
00:52:20 <oklopol> okay, finally, i have proven there's no way to do it under 16.
00:52:45 <FireFly> How come you know hungarian, oerjan?
00:53:04 <ehird> oklopol: what's the 16
00:53:18 <oklopol> wait i'll translate it to forth
00:53:18 <oerjan> my mom tried to learn it
00:53:23 <ehird> oklopol: also post your best ones as a comment on http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html dammit :P
00:53:34 <Asztal> oerjan: I've never seen "Saját" before, but apparently it means "mine"
00:53:36 <oerjan> she had some hungarian friends
00:53:36 <GregorR> Ich bin kein Mitglied dieser Konferenz, dennoch möchte ich einen Pinguin.
00:53:44 <ehird> fizziew: are you very w?
00:54:29 <oklopol> >R >R R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R@ R@ R> - R> - -
00:54:47 <Asztal> oerjan: you were right, though, -m is what I'd expect (as in légpárnás hajó*m*)
00:55:04 <oklopol> the last one was borked because i managed to think python does its subtraction symbolically.
00:55:29 <ehird> oklopol: also is that rot i assume?
00:55:48 <ehird> oklopol: didn't you have a smaller swap?
00:55:51 <oklopol> also 15 is currently as much as i can brute force
00:55:59 <oklopol> so it was luck i managed to do that
00:56:09 <oklopol> ehird: that smaller swap was broken
00:56:24 <oerjan> Asztal: that's what that hovercraft page uses too
00:56:28 <oklopol> anyway, i could make it a lot faster, and do rot, ofc
00:56:34 <ehird> oklopol: post it dammit
00:56:40 <oklopol> at least i assume i can generate more optimizations
00:56:45 <ehird> sure as hell beats his
00:56:47 <ehird> : SWAP >R >R R@ R> >R R@ R> R@ - >R R@ R> >R - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R> ;
00:57:01 <oklopol> i think mine is the exact same.
00:57:13 <oklopol> except without the redundancy
00:57:22 <ehird> I thought that was different
00:57:41 <oklopol> actually what i did was take
00:58:04 <oklopol> over does a swap, and leaves another copy of x in there
00:58:19 <GregorR> Min igelkott är inte dum eller söt.
00:58:22 <oklopol> i just dropped that instruction
00:58:28 <oklopol> and then removed redundancy
00:58:37 <ehird> hmm my copy of his didn't expand +
00:58:42 <oklopol> it's more interesting that i proved it's optimal
00:58:44 <oerjan> GregorR: Alla igelkottar er söta
00:58:50 <oklopol> not that that's very interesting still
00:59:16 <ehird> : SWAP >R >R R@ R> >R R@ R> R@ - >R R@ R> >R - R> R> >R >R R@ R> >R R@ R> - R> - - >R >R >R R@ R> - >R >R R@ R> - R> - - R> R> ;
00:59:29 <ehird> oklopol: wonder if it's tc
00:59:45 <oklopol> unless you make it lazy :P
00:59:56 <ehird> oklopol: conditionals can be done by pushing addresses on the return stack
01:00:06 <oklopol> well assuming that's not done
01:00:14 <ehird> : nop-forever ' nop-forever >R ;
01:00:26 <oklopol> you could have laziness, like if some value is subtracted from itself after being calculated, it will not be calculated at all
01:00:45 <ehird> oerjan: ' reads the next word and pushes its definition's address
01:00:55 <ehird> ' nop-forever → d834fu34
01:01:18 <oerjan> ehird: without ', might you instead use R> DROP as an INTERCAL FORGET?
01:01:44 <ehird> you can loop without '
01:01:49 <ehird> : nop-forever R@ >R ;
01:01:53 <oerjan> oh wait you still need to do so conditionally
01:01:53 <ehird> think it might be TC because of that
01:02:10 * FireFly wants a browser with full CSS3 support
01:02:30 <ehird> : FOREVER R> DROP R@ >R ;
01:02:36 <ehird> then : LOOP ... FOREVER ;
01:02:43 <ehird> LOOP is "... ... ..." forever
01:02:53 <ehird> that just loops after forever
01:02:57 <ehird> : LOOP FOREVER ... ;
01:03:29 <ehird> : forever r> drop r@ >r ; ok
01:03:30 <ehird> : test forever ." Hello, world!" cr ; ok
01:03:47 <ehird> : forever r@ >r ; redefined forever ok
01:03:49 <ehird> needs more thinking
01:03:59 <ehird> : forever r@ >r >r ; redefined forever ok
01:04:01 <ehird> :9: Address alignment exception
01:05:39 <oklopol> ehird: "URL contains illegal characters"
01:05:45 <oklopol> i can't post comments i'm too dumb :P
01:06:09 <FireFly> Hm, did we get `translatefromto ?
01:06:48 <oklopol> Google Account, what does that mean, should i be logged onto google or something?
01:07:41 <GregorR> `translatefromto es ko Hola
01:07:43 <HackEgo> 안녕하세요
01:08:06 <GregorR> `translatefromto es it Hola
01:08:06 <oklopol> ehird: i posted, but i also posted the proof, and tabs got fucked up
01:08:13 <FireFly> `translatefromto sv en kissa
01:09:26 <oklopol> also "pushed one less x" only makes sense if you know what x is :P
01:09:38 <oklopol> i'm not exactly used to adding comments.
01:09:48 <oklopol> you know, because i'm a retard
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01:52:32 <Warrigal> `translateto ja I really like eating that beef.
01:56:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:56:48 <Warrigal> `translateto ja My nickname is Warrigal.
01:58:55 <HackEgo> * Australian wild horse \ * dingo: wolflike yellowish-brown wild dog of Australia \ [19]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
01:59:20 <GregorR> You're an Australian wild horse, huh.
01:59:24 <HackEgo> * Gregor is a surname, and may refer to: * Francis Gregor (MP) (1760 - 1815 ), MP for the County of Cornwall, brother of William. * Valentin Gregor (born May 1963, Bonn, Germany) is a jazz violinist, singer and composer. ... \ [22]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_(surname) \ * Gregory is a common masculine first
02:01:03 <Warrigal> watashi no NIKKUNEEMU wa (野生) desu.
02:01:24 <GregorR> `translateto ko My hovercraft is full of Warrigals.
02:01:33 <GregorR> `translateto ja My hovercraft is full of Warrigals.
02:01:35 <HackEgo> 私のホバークラフトWarrigalsでいっぱいです。
02:02:08 <pikhq> `translateto eo My hovercraft is full of eels
02:02:18 <pikhq> What, no Esperanto?
02:02:26 <Warrigal> I think 野生 is a single word. I don't know how it's pronounced.
02:02:48 <Warrigal> Words with multiple kanji use the on readings, right?
02:03:09 <pikhq> `translateto fy My hovercraft is full of eels.
02:03:21 <pikhq> No Frisian, either. :(
02:04:20 <GregorR> `translateto lv My hovercraft is full of bananas.
02:04:21 <HackEgo> Mani hovercraft ir pilns ar banâniem.
02:04:34 <Warrigal> The on readings of 野 are ya and sho, and those of 生 are shoo and sei. I think.
02:04:59 <GregorR> `translateto ko I wonder if Google Translate can translate words like "sex doll", "dildo", "pornography" and "threesome"
02:05:01 <HackEgo> Google 번역하면 "섹스 인형", "!!"와 같은 단어를 번역할 수 있을지 궁금하다 "포르노"및 "3 인조"
02:05:33 <GregorR> Apparently, Korean for 'dildo' is '!!'
02:06:05 <Warrigal> And I prefer the dingo to the horse.
02:06:13 <Warrigal> Equines are weird and/or freaky.
02:06:41 <GregorR> `translateto fi Equines like to get weird and/or freaky.
02:06:43 <HackEgo> Hevoseläimet haluaisin saada outoja ja / tai Freaky.
02:07:12 <GregorR> I'm glad that it capitalized "freaky" for me :P
02:07:52 <Warrigal> Thereby proving that the word for "dingo" is the same in every language.
02:09:38 <Warrigal> It's even a valid, though nonexistent, gismu in Lojban.
02:10:29 <Warrigal> In theory, you're not allowed to use that word until the LLG approves it, which they probably will never do. But people who want the word for "dingo" to be the same in every language will ignore that.
02:11:59 <GregorR> Damned Happy Tree People ... every time I channel-surf past cutesy cartoons, I expect them all to die horrendous deaths.
02:16:14 <Warrigal> Though the word is different in Lithuanian. They say "dingas".
02:23:23 * Warrigal attempts to figure out the Farsi word for "dingo" and comes up with "farsdh", which is actually the Farsi word for Farsi.
02:25:46 <Warrigal> The Farsi word for "dingo" is "دینگو"...
02:28:08 <Warrigal> Which can be transliterated as "dīngow".
02:29:40 <Warrigal> In Korean, it's "딩고", which doesn't render in Courier New. Lovely.
02:33:42 <Warrigal> Anyway, that appears to transliterate as "dinggo", where "ngg" is a velar nasal followed by a g.
02:34:09 <GregorR> Which is, err, the correct pronunciation?
02:37:13 <GregorR> Observation: The reason why "dingo" is the same in every language is that dingos were discovered after most modern languages were more-or-less in place. Now stop talking about it like it's interesting.
02:37:39 <Warrigal> And hey, it transliterates as "dingo".
02:38:07 <Warrigal> Hey, I only have four more words to transliterate. :-P All on one line, now...
02:38:23 <GregorR> "dingo", "dingo", "dingo" and "dingo", YES, WE GET IT
02:45:13 <GregorR> Have I destroyed your will? :P
02:46:44 <oklopol> MY WILLY IS INDESTRUCTIBLE
02:47:38 <GregorR> I'm trying to think of any response at all that's not ultra-gay innuendo ... in your end-o.
02:48:23 <Warrigal> Georgian: "დინგო", "dingo". Tamil: "டிங்கோ", "tinko". Chinese: I'll get back to you on that.
02:48:54 <GregorR> How are you doing all these magical transliterations?
02:49:17 <Warrigal> By going to the Wikipedia pages on their scripts and looking up each letter.
02:49:53 <pikhq> I find it very interesting that my terminal doesn't render Arabis script correctly.
02:49:59 <GregorR> I'm gonna go grab my English-to-Ancient-Egyptian dictionary and look up "dingo"
02:49:59 <pikhq> Interesting and lame.
02:50:46 <Warrigal> I'm going to write "dingo" in Ancient Egyptian now.
02:54:31 <GregorR> Keep in mind that Hieroglyphs had no vowels, and it would be ultra-lame if you used only hieroglyphs that encode single sounds.
02:55:25 <GregorR> Since the 'd' and 'n' single-sound hieroglyphs are both wide but 'g' isn't, you should do some combination to make the result more attractive.
03:04:29 <Warrigal> So, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ihope127 for my ultra-lame hieroglyphs.
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03:08:13 <GregorR> That's exactly what I expected :P
03:08:46 <GregorR> Hieroglyphs is all about choosing the right symbols such that every word is its own block ... with this the 'g' is more-or-less detached from 'dn'
03:10:45 <GregorR> Argh, it's hot in my apartment :(
03:11:18 <Warrigal> So find a bilateral sign for "dn" or "ng". :-P
03:12:00 <Warrigal> Who says only wide signs are stackable?
03:12:04 <Warrigal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ihope127
03:12:51 <Warrigal> It's apparently not the same thing as a stack.
03:13:03 <Warrigal> Unless you mean that that block doesn't exist.
03:13:36 <Warrigal> Now I'll try to write "warrigal".
03:13:58 <GregorR> Something which, when put into a box, has no appreciable blank spots.
03:19:26 <Warrigal> wrgl, so wrgn or wrgr, so wr g n or wr g r, which codes as G36 W11 D21 or G36 W11 N35.
03:19:36 <Warrigal> Neither of which can be rendered in a way that looks nice.
03:21:55 <Warrigal> Oh, hey, G36-W11:N35 actually is a block.
03:25:00 <Warrigal> It's three times as wide as it is tall, but it's still a block.
03:27:13 <oklopol> Warrigal: oh my god those were lame
03:32:59 <Warrigal> Are there less-lame ways of doing these?
03:33:04 <Warrigal> Also, "LAPWING WITH WINGS TWISTED
03:33:13 <Warrigal> ROUND ONE ANOTHER" is such a great Unicode character name.
03:33:54 <pikhq> GregorR: Any Winelf news, or am I going to have to fiddle with it myself for there to be any progress? :P
03:34:20 <GregorR> I just added x86_64 support for Linux, but it doesn't work, and has nothing to do with Windows :P
03:35:28 <pikhq> Bring on the CygwinELF!
03:38:18 * pikhq would also accept Loadlin
03:39:37 <GregorR> Why don't you try running elfimplib over cygwin1.dll and seeing what happens :P
03:42:14 <GregorR> Or were you actually thinking libcygwin.so.1?
03:42:14 <pikhq> Wouldn't quite work right, because cygwin1.dll does direct calls to the Win32 process execution call...
03:42:50 <GregorR> You just have to make it not call cygwin1.dll for those.
03:43:09 <pikhq> I just want a libcygwin.so.1 that executes Cygwin programs as ELF files.
03:44:20 <pikhq> All the calls go through a single function.
03:44:37 <pikhq> (Cygwin has a syscall-esque design for cygwin1.dll)
03:45:21 <pikhq> Basically, Cygwin is designed as a UNIX kernel which happens to run in userspace on Windows.
03:48:46 <pikhq> And it already has seperate code paths for executing Windows and Cygwin executables.
03:49:37 <pikhq> Because of how Cygwin works, if the WinELF programs started with #!/bin/elfload, it would work right. :P
03:51:18 <GregorR> There's only one problem with that ...
03:51:32 * pikhq looks to see if it'd be easy to add more magic numbers there
03:52:42 <GregorR> Incidentally, if you know anything about ELF symbol versioning and want to extend elfload ... I won't stop you? :P
03:53:13 <Warrigal> Is there a file extension that makes Windows toss a file to Cygwin for shebanging?
03:53:55 <pikhq> How Cygwin works is it functions as a UNIX kernel. Shebanging only works when something is being executed via Cygwin.
03:56:33 <pikhq> Ah, there's the Cygwin magic number handling.
03:57:30 <pikhq> int av::fixup (const char *prog_arg, path_conv& real_path, const char *ext)
03:58:01 <pikhq> In winsup/cygwin/spawn.cc
03:58:18 <pikhq> Warning: hard-to-read C++.
03:58:24 <pikhq> (read: "Win32 API")
03:59:52 <Warrigal> Couldn't you write a program that tells Cygwin to execute a particular file, and then assign a certain file extension to that program?
04:00:58 <pikhq> int main(int argc,char**argv){exec(argv[1]);}
04:01:49 <pikhq> GregorR: Well, right now I'm just looking for what, exactly, the ELF magic number is.
04:02:18 <oklopol> ELF in hex plus a 128 before or after is my guess
04:06:55 <pikhq> So, should be just a minor patch to spawn.cc and a build away.
04:08:00 <pikhq> GregorR: Make it handle the ELF magic number sequence and call elfload.exe. :P
04:12:48 * pikhq very strongly gets the feeling that elfload does not load shared libraries in shared memory space. :P
04:16:24 <pikhq> Hmm. The Cygwin dlopen would also need patching. :/
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07:12:46 <Sgeo> The netsplit was much more epic in Python
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07:32:33 <oklopol> should probably sleep soon
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12:13:26 <ehird> 01:37 GregorR: Observation: The reason why "dingo" is the same in every language is that dingos were discovered after most modern languages were more-or-less in place. Now stop talking about it like it's interesting.
12:13:56 <ehird> All Warrigal does is come up with some pointless goal and annoy the channel for hours with it, including such gems of tautology as "In theory, you're not allowed to use that word until the LLG approves it, which they probably will never do. But people who want the word for "dingo" to be the same in every language will ignore that."
12:15:11 * oerjan wasn't annoyed and has no idea what you was talking about.
12:15:44 -!- Zuu has changed nick to billgates2.
12:17:03 <ehird> i have no idea what you was talking about, oerjan
12:17:10 <ehird> you was not good with the english
12:17:30 <oerjan> that very good. i were not really trying.
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12:18:03 <ehird> oerjan doth sound liketh he needs some sleep
12:18:51 <oerjan> that would been weird, seeing as i just get up
12:19:14 <ehird> I also, but I'm still tired
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12:49:46 <ehird> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;297830 Microsoft have high opinions of their program's logic consistency:
12:49:49 <ehird> INSERT INTO test ;
12:49:49 <ehird> VALUES ("Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
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13:03:32 <ehird> Gnome 3 is going to be awesome. I wish Gnome 3 was out.
13:04:14 <ehird> Wow! 2.28 is going to depend on WebKit/GTK+. Cool.
13:10:53 <ehird> "This would work and reuse a lot of code, but I’m a little wary of embedding a web browser into the window manager."
13:17:41 <ehird> [[Abstract: This talk describes a radically different architecture for computing called Fleet. Fleet accepts the limitations to computing imposed by physics: moving data around inside a computer costs more energy, more delay, and more chip area than the arithmetic and logical operations ordinarily called “computing.” Fleet puts the programmer firmly in charge of the most costly resource, communication, instead of in charge of the arithmetic and logic
13:17:43 <ehird> al resources that are now almost free. Fleet treats arithmetic and logical operations as side effects of where the programmer sends data.]]
13:17:53 <ehird> This guy is anticipating electrons slowing down massively, I guess.
14:01:48 <Asztal> Windows woke up my computer from sleep to update windows media centre. Is it just me, or is that really stupid?
14:05:42 <ehird> <Asztal> Windows[…]Is[…]really stupid
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14:25:08 <ehird> [[Quote from the Encyclopedia Galactica, 5th rev.:
14:25:08 <ehird> > The virus that destroyed Terran "Western" civilization, known as W32.Addict, was much simpler in construction than previous viruses. Once running, it would open the computer's web browser at random intervals between one and five hours to a random page from the TV Tropes website. Millions were found dead at their computers in the first 48 hours of the epidemic alone. Even worse, those infected voluntarily spread the virus further, e-mailing others to "c
14:25:13 <ehird> heck out this site I found."]]
14:49:32 <ehird> "My six year old cousin is being sexually abused by her step-mom, what can I do (legally)?"
14:49:36 <ehird> The answer being "ask on reddit".
14:50:42 <ehird> No, that'd be /b/.
14:59:04 -!- ehird has set topic: תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:59:10 <ehird> `translate תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ
14:59:11 <HackEgo> × ª Ö ¹ × "× • Ö ¼ × • Ö ¸ × 'Ö ¹ ×" × • Ö ¼
15:03:40 <ehird> From the Torah; "tohu va vohu" → "without form, and void".
15:03:46 <ehird> Quite accurately describes esolangs…
15:03:53 <ehird> Most of them, at least.
15:05:12 <ehird> I said "most of them". :)
15:05:20 <ehird> Haha, Genesis is called Bereshit in the Torah.
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15:17:29 * ehird reads someone claim that nobody has monitored the brainwaves of someone feeling "love"
15:17:44 <ehird> Welcome to the world! Next stop: Holy Fucking Shit It's The Twenty First Century Wow.
17:07:26 * GregorR is running another generation of his color matcher.
17:08:42 <GregorR> You should all be matching colors right now, cats and kittens!
17:09:37 <GregorR> That's ... an odd statement.
17:09:57 <GregorR> Especially from somebody enjoying the WHITE PRIVILEGE.
17:10:40 <oklopol> how do you know i'm white?
17:11:40 <oklopol> hmm. i guess i did recently record my penis
17:11:54 <oklopol> but, you can't be sure, i could've like colored my skin for it
17:13:38 <GregorR> At generation 113, best result is 0.72 (5889/8210)
17:14:15 <ehird> GregorR: can it do more subtle colours
17:14:24 <oklopol> GregorR: that tells me absolutely nothing
17:14:50 <ehird> GregorR: the previous one gave very strong colours
17:14:58 <ehird> very primary sort of thing
17:15:02 <ehird> not something you could use as subtle shades and stuff
17:15:03 <GregorR> ehird: Oh, you mean for color schemes?
17:15:09 <ehird> things like that, yeah
17:15:28 <GregorR> That would have to be checked independently. This just says "are these two colors not barfaglorious"
17:15:34 <oklopol> GregorR: what's the 5889 there?
17:15:49 <GregorR> oklopol: How many pieces of matching data my neural network agrees with.
17:16:12 <oklopol> GregorR: well that's obvious, i could've deduced that easily
17:16:26 <GregorR> Uhhhhh, then why did you ask? :P
17:16:52 <oklopol> hmm. good question. i'll have to assume it has something to do with the fact i just woke up. even though i'm not at all tired.
17:17:09 <HackEgo> * dazed: stunned or confused and slow to react (as from blows or drunkenness or exhaustion) \ [12]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Sleep inertia is a physiological state characterised by a decline in motor dexterity and a subjective feeling of grogginess, immediately following an abrupt awakening. Sleep
17:18:15 <oklopol> GregorR: if you wake up at 19:00, there's not always a clear distinction
17:18:23 <ehird> it's commanding you to!
17:18:33 <ehird> oklopol: ugh, I'd hate that
17:18:41 <ehird> waking up late depresses me
17:18:45 <GregorR> At generation 195, best result is 0.73 (5974/8210)
17:19:04 <ehird> GregorR: you do realise there's probably a better way than a generic neural network for this?
17:19:22 <oklopol> when i'm alone and don't have uni, i automatically switch to an inverse rhythm
17:19:26 <GregorR> Genetic neural networks are awesome, screw you :P
17:19:30 <ehird> GregorR: neural networks tend to be great at their example and crap at everything else, unless there's inherent, meaningful structure directly related to the operation embedded in the inputs
17:19:43 <oklopol> takes like 4 days or so :D
17:19:46 <ehird> there isn't such barfness-structure in colour codes
17:19:57 <GregorR> I really do think that there is.
17:20:02 <ehird> oklopol: don't you like sunlight? :<
17:20:18 <ehird> GregorR: yeah because that 1 bit there with that 0 bit there implies the subjective human aesthetic system likes it
17:20:39 <ehird> i must be the only person who likes daylight
17:20:47 <GregorR> ehird: And yet, everybody on Earth can go "lime green and pink? Maybe not."
17:21:01 <ehird> GregorR: Let me get this straight.
17:21:36 <ehird> "Every human can do this" = "genetic neural networks can do this"? Two, yes, they can decide whether two colours fit. That doesn't mean that the actual bits in two colour codes has INHERENT MEANINGFUL STRUCTURE related to this.
17:21:45 <ehird> and you need that for neural networks to do well at it
17:21:48 <GregorR> (Also, the input data is, by my quick-n-dirty remover-for-inconsistent-results, 40% inconsistent 8-D )
17:21:53 <ehird> otherwise it's just a pseudorandom shitfest
17:21:56 <oklopol> GregorR: well not everybody
17:22:15 <oklopol> i'd tell you who can't, but you'd ban me from your color matcher.
17:22:35 <ehird> [[Barring unforeseen issues, Emacs 23.1 will be released in two days, on Wednesday the 22nd: http://article.gmane.org/gm...
17:22:36 <ehird> Correction: Emacs 23.1 will be released in nine days, on Wednesday the 29th.]]
17:22:37 <ehird> — http://twitter.com/emacs
17:22:41 <ehird> oklopol: who? you? :D
17:22:47 <ehird> your random voting computer program?
17:22:54 <oklopol> what's wrong with pink and lime green
17:23:09 <GregorR> ehird: What you've forgotten is that I'm actually rather happy with the result of this neural network, and agree with it more often than not :P
17:23:09 <ehird> oklopol: you gon get band!
17:23:19 <ehird> GregorR: That just means you're crazy. :P
17:23:45 <ehird> GregorR: Also, bit of bias in that you made it to work so you rather want it to work.
17:23:51 <ehird> Might influence your agreement decisions.
17:24:15 <ehird> GregorR: Didn't you say you wanted a phone that can run emacs?
17:24:28 <ehird> Someone in here did.
17:25:12 <oklopol> GregorR: is the input data the votes from the website?
17:26:01 <oklopol> i bet you i could write something incredibly trivial that just compares the numbers with a few biases and get more than 73%
17:26:27 <oklopol> are the votes free for grabbing?
17:26:58 <oklopol> because that was not *only* and insult, i also really would like to try :P
17:27:02 <GregorR> (Also, 76% is the number to beat now, I don't recall saying "gee, I'm going to run this for 200 generations then call it quits")
17:27:25 <oklopol> programming is fun again, because i don't know haskell so well every bug is a typo
17:27:45 <oklopol> i don't know why i corrected that
17:28:17 <GregorR> codu.org/colormatch/q/data/matches
17:28:45 <oklopol> do they have obvious meanings?
17:29:26 <oklopol> boolean might've been inverted
17:29:43 <oklopol> i'll put that in the just woke up file too
17:29:56 <GregorR> Could've been R1 R2 G1 G2 B1 B2 M in theory too ;)
17:30:00 <ehird> kolmogorov complexity is computable by just trying every program of length 0, 1, 2, ... isn't it?
17:30:08 <ehird> i mean only on a superturing machine or sth
17:30:27 <oklopol> thought you said r1 g1 b1 b2 g2 r2 m
17:30:53 <GregorR> That would have been a weird choice :P
17:31:15 <ehird> oklopol: so why is kolmogorov complexity uncomputable?
17:31:21 <oklopol> smallest program that does x is found by finding the smallest program that does it.
17:31:41 <oklopol> ehird: because if a prog of length 2 doesn't halt, you have no way of knowing whether you can advance
17:32:34 <ehird> oklopol: i've been up for hours
17:32:49 <ehird> oklopol: or do you mean you?
17:33:00 <oklopol> i have absolutely no idea what i meant
17:33:03 <ehird> oklopol: anyway, I just realised something cool
17:33:14 <ehird> a machine that lets you start infinite parallel turing machine computations at once is superturing
17:33:35 <ehird> you can have a function that tries every program, and reports on the lowest kolmogorov complexity
17:33:52 <ehird> which you can't do with a TM
17:34:08 <oklopol> ehird: umm and when does it know the smallest to finish :D
17:34:14 <oklopol> and have the correct result
17:34:18 <ehird> oklopol: it doesn't, it reports on them as they go
17:34:35 <ehird> if one terminates and is shorter than the current winner, return it and keep going
17:35:36 <oklopol> you're of course right in that it will find the correct answer in finite time. unfortunately it will not know when it has found it, so i don't think it's superturing under the standard definition.
17:36:17 <ehird> oklopol: it can't have a function kolmogorov(s), indeed
17:36:23 <ehird> oklopol: you can't do it on a turing machine
17:36:28 <ehird> if you round-robin the prorgams
17:36:35 <ehird> p0_0, p1_0, p2_0, ...
17:36:40 <ehird> and never get to p0_1
17:36:49 <ehird> so it can compute something that TMs simply cannot
17:36:50 <oklopol> there are other ways to round robin
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17:36:55 <oklopol> you should really learn math :P
17:37:13 <ehird> there just aren't any that can do it this way
17:37:37 <oklopol> 0101210123432101234543210..
17:38:07 <ehird> oklopol: never gets to p{infinity}_0
17:38:24 <oklopol> p{infinity}_0 is not a program.
17:38:35 <ehird> oklopol: sheesh it was ad-hoc notation
17:38:35 <oklopol> if we allow infinite programs, superturing is not enough
17:38:44 <ehird> oklopol: i meant that it only ever runs a finite amount of the programs
17:38:44 <oklopol> well what the fuck did it mean?
17:38:48 <ehird> my parallel version runs all of them at once
17:39:18 <oklopol> ehird: for any program pn_0, for any x>0, that round robin executes it at least x times.
17:39:41 <ehird> I think it's distinctly less powerful than an infinitely parallel TM
17:40:00 <ehird> but it needs more thinking.
17:40:04 <ehird> which I probably won't give it.
17:40:51 <oklopol> well. i'm not saying anything about infinitely parallel tm's. but i doubt those are superturing
17:41:41 <ehird> you can certainly achieve things with them that you can't with a TM, I'm pretty sure, but it may not be superturing
17:41:45 <ehird> that's a contradiction
17:41:50 <oklopol> parallelizing doesn't help all programs, so there are still ones that would have to be run linearly, which means those are subject to the HP
17:42:05 <ehird> regardless, they certainly speed things up :-P
17:42:14 <ehird> unless you have an infinitely fast TM
17:42:15 <oklopol> well, umm, i'm not arguing that :P
17:42:39 <ehird> oklopol: so, STM = TM + parallel {TM*inf}
17:42:50 <ehird> STM' = TM + parallel {STM'*inf}
17:42:56 <ehird> oklopol: that's basically an infinity machine, I think, maybe
17:43:05 <ehird> just unpack the nested lists sorta thing
17:43:15 <ehird> if you conditionally parallelise
17:43:25 <ehird> and STM's "parallel" hangs until they're all done
17:43:29 <ehird> then STM' is more powerful
17:43:33 <ehird> but why should it hang anyway
17:43:59 <oklopol> the infinity machine is a bit different; i mean you can't find pi's last digit with your thing
17:44:21 <ehird> STM' = STM for any sane definition of both
17:44:24 <oklopol> proof: yours is mathematically meaningful, the infinity machine is not.
17:44:42 <ehird> oklopol: the infinity machine doesn't exist in this mathematical framework, though :)
17:45:47 <oklopol> do you mean it exists in some other mathematical framework?
17:46:05 <ehird> oklopol: the whole page posits that it exists in another universe and framework entirely
17:46:17 <ehird> not even necessarily one we can comprehend or even imagine in this universe
17:46:30 <ehird> well it doesn't posit that it actually exists at all ofc
17:47:13 <oklopol> right, it's ages since i read it, and i didn't find it a very interesting idea back then either
17:47:55 <oklopol> a very similar idea was in some philosophy books my dad read when i was like younger than you
17:48:21 <ehird> i wish there was a good model for concurrent computing
17:48:27 <oklopol> there are good models for it
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17:49:17 <oklopol> well okay, pi calculus is awesome, i don't know about good. also i'm not sure what you mean by a model exactly, i don't know much about the theory of concurrency.
17:49:22 <ehird> oklopol: it's really hard to find one that, when you distribute across the internet, doesn't fall pray to the eight fallacies of distributed computing:
17:49:39 <ehird> 1. The network is reliable.
17:49:39 <ehird> 2. Latency is zero.
17:49:41 <ehird> 3. Bandwidth is infinite.
17:49:43 <ehird> 4. The network is secure.
17:49:44 <oklopol> yeah they fall pray like a nun
17:49:45 <ehird> 5. Topology doesn't change.
17:49:47 <ehird> 6. There is one administrator.
17:49:49 <ehird> 7. Transport cost is zero.
17:49:51 <ehird> 8. The network is homogeneous.
17:50:25 <oklopol> i think they just assume real life networks are asymptotically equivalent to those
17:50:49 <oklopol> i mean really, who seriously cares about anything but complexity class
17:50:52 <ehird> counterexample: the internet
17:50:59 <ehird> counterexample: any supercomputer
17:51:07 <ehird> wires can only go so fast :P
17:51:38 <ehird> i have a great sorting function for you
17:51:51 <oklopol> well, i'm not an expert on this, in fact i don't know *anything* about it, so dunno.
17:51:55 <ehird> it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number
17:52:01 <ehird> and O(n log n) above that
17:52:19 <oklopol> that doesn't really mean anything
17:52:42 <ehird> oklopol: it beats quicksort and mergesort in complexity in some cases!
17:52:44 <ehird> best case, specifically
17:53:19 <oklopol> the order of a restricted function is not meaningful
17:53:29 <ehird> works for any list
17:53:36 <oklopol> and i don't care about functions that only work for lists with length below graham's number.
17:53:42 <ehird> 17:51 ehird: it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number
17:53:42 <ehird> 17:52 ehird: and O(n log n) above that
17:53:48 <oklopol> ehird: it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number <<< this is a statement about a restricted function
17:53:57 <ehird> oklopol: the best case complexity, O(1), is better than quicksort's and mergesort's
17:54:02 <ehird> this is a perfectly valid statement
17:54:29 <oklopol> "ehird: it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number" <<< this simply means absolutely nothing
17:54:40 <ehird> so use my other statemnt
17:54:43 <ehird> 17:53 ehird: oklopol: the best case complexity, O(1), is better than quicksort's and mergesort's
17:55:01 <ehird> oklopol: if you contend this is meaningless
17:55:02 <oklopol> can you define best case complexity for me?
17:55:02 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best,_worst_and_average_case
17:55:11 <ehird> The term best-case performance is used in computer science to describe the way an algorithm behaves under optimal conditions. For example, the best case for a simple linear search on an array occurs when the desired element is the first in the list.
17:55:12 <ehird> Development and choice of algorithms is rarely based on best-case performance: most academic and commercial enterprises are more interested in improving average performance and worst-case performance.
17:56:05 <oklopol> you said nothing about best case complexity of your algo as input size approaches infinity
17:56:23 <ehird> the best case of my algorithm is O(1)
17:56:26 <oklopol> so i don't really see where you get "better than qs and ms"
17:56:26 <ehird> that is simply a fact
17:56:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best,_worst_and_average_case
17:57:03 <ehird> you're the one who doesn't know shit
17:57:10 <ehird> because these terms are very clearly defined and very commonly used
17:58:21 <oklopol> you do realize that page doesn't define best case
17:58:29 <ehird> The term best-case performance is used in computer science to describe the way an algorithm behaves under optimal conditions. For example, the best case for a simple linear search on an array occurs when the desired element is the first in the list.
17:58:34 <ehird> apparently you're blind
17:58:41 <ehird> maybe you should use one of those screenreaders
17:59:03 <oklopol> consider yourself ignored forever.
17:59:17 <ehird> cool, i got oklopol pissed off
17:59:19 <oklopol> that guy is a fucking retard
17:59:31 * ehird checks off on list of Impossible Things to do Before Breakfast
18:13:39 <ehird> "Oh, Reddit has discovered Sketchy LISP. Again." — Nils M Holm, in red lettering.
18:20:47 <GregorR> oklopol: How's your color matcher goin'? :P
18:27:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:36:58 <oklopol> you know that perfectly well
18:37:15 <oklopol> anyway i just came back from the shoppe
18:37:21 <oklopol> couldn't have finished it yet
18:37:29 <oklopol> there was a guy riding a unicycle
18:37:42 <ehird> hi oklopol who can't hear me!
18:37:50 <oklopol> it was kinda hard to leave after telling him i like unicycling too
18:37:58 <oklopol> he was like omg soulmate stay here with me
18:38:39 -!- oklopol has left (?).
18:38:39 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:38:45 <ehird> wb oklopol who can't hear me
18:43:23 <oklopol> <ehird> cool, i got oklopol pissed off <<< yes, i guess you could say that.
18:43:37 <ehird> hey you said i was ignored bitch
18:43:42 <ehird> are you a fucking liar
18:44:04 <ehird> guess i am now tho :D
18:44:19 <oklopol> i've decided to unignore you once you sincerely apologize, and state clearly that you were wrong.
18:44:22 <oklopol> unless you do it right away
18:44:43 <ehird> oklopol: haha but you can't because you have to ignore me to hear you
18:44:47 <oklopol> it's a max(random amount, apology)
18:44:50 <ehird> CONSIDERED THAT BITCH?
18:45:21 <oklopol> weird yogurt eating time ->
18:45:24 <ehird> anyway i didn't actually say anything more insulting than you calling me a retard, and i wasn't wrong, soo
18:45:27 <ehird> not happenin' pardner
18:45:35 <ehird> EVERYTHING BLUE IS OKLOPOL TO MEEEEEEE
18:45:55 <oklopol> GregorR: i'll probably start after a crucial episode of family guy, remember to keep me updated
18:46:19 <ehird> your mom will start after a crucial episode of family gu
18:46:36 <oklopol> on your percentage that is
18:47:02 <oklopol> also what exactly is that percentage, i mean do you input half and test half, or what?
18:47:37 <oklopol> if you input all and test all, i can trivially beat you, but i guess you could consider that unfair :P
18:48:28 <oklopol> yours doesn't even have input because it's evolutionizing
18:57:21 <GregorR> I'm so full of chalk and sawdust, you guys
18:58:39 <oklopol> GregorR: that tells me absolutely nothing
18:58:54 <GregorR> Then YOU don't read enough Dinosaur Comics :P
18:58:55 <ehird> IT TELLS YOU ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE ARE
18:59:25 <oklopol> as i've mentioned before, i don't seem to understand them
19:00:08 <ehird> haha oklopol doesn't understand dinosaur comic
19:00:40 <ehird> more like faglopol
19:01:05 <GregorR> Not that there's anything wrong with that!
19:01:12 * pikhq disables IO-APIC, retries installing XP on VirtualBox.
19:01:22 <oklopol> anyway, the solution i was gonna do was to store a size 4096 state space, that size would probably be enough to get over 90% prolly no matter how sucky it is, if i just let evolution find the optimal values for it
19:01:48 <ehird> pikhq: grab the win7 RC!
19:01:50 <pikhq> That feature apparently makes XP absurdly slow.
19:02:09 <pikhq> ehird: When I have access to spare bandwidth, I'll grab Server 2008.
19:02:15 <pikhq> (read: when I get back to school)
19:02:15 <oklopol> but, i'll try to think of something else, because i don't like losing to people like you.
19:02:43 <ehird> pikhq: why that instead of windows 7?
19:02:49 <ehird> i mean they're basically the same thing
19:02:52 <ehird> you can get win7 rc legally
19:02:56 <ehird> and use it until june 2009
19:02:56 <pikhq> ehird: Full version for free.
19:03:05 <ehird> pikhq: but for a limited time
19:03:07 <pikhq> (because I'm a student)
19:03:21 <ehird> well who cares about legal, says I!
19:03:35 <pikhq> Microsoft offers development software for free to all high-school and college students.
19:03:45 <pikhq> Server OSes apparently count as development software.
19:04:17 <pikhq> Anyways, I find it absurd how very fast this thing is going without IO-APIC enabled.
19:05:33 <Asztal> well, you're supposed to stop using it when you stop being a student, or so I thought.
19:05:37 <GregorR> Yup, I can apparently get Server 2008
19:05:39 <Asztal> not that I'd do that either.
19:05:56 <GregorR> I can get Vista Business too
19:06:08 <GregorR> And MapPoint, because that's dev software.
19:06:35 <pikhq> My roommate apparently has two free copies of every version piece of Microsoft software from XP on.
19:06:39 <Asztal> I got Vista twice, 32-bit and 64-bit... (even though product keys work on both architectures)
19:06:55 <GregorR> ehird: Double the flavor, no calories!
19:07:06 <ehird> Windows doesn't have flavour
19:07:15 <pikhq> ehird: He did something to merit getting one copy. And he did something else that merited getting one copy.
19:07:23 <ehird> pikhq: he must be so luck
19:07:36 <pikhq> Now if only he gave a damn.
19:07:58 <pikhq> "Well, I *guess* I could use my new i7 for running all of them at once..."
19:08:19 <Asztal> you could also get XP twice from MSDN Academic Alliance, because it considered windows XP and Windows XP with SP2 different products...
19:08:24 <ehird> pikhq: I don't think i7s are *that* good
19:08:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:09:13 <ehird> [ehird:~/Library] % rm -rf Application Support/CrossOver Chromium ;; holy fuck I'm glad none of those were valid directory names
19:09:26 <FireFly> Greetings from a couple of kilometers to the east
19:09:30 <oklopol> we're talking about how great microsoft is
19:09:41 <pikhq> Anyways, he has two MSDN accounts.
19:10:01 <pikhq> And no desire to use them.
19:10:27 <oerjan> wait, a couple of kilometers?
19:12:54 * oerjan concludes there is probably no part of sweden a couple of kilometers to the east of here, even with north/south adjustment
19:13:13 <ehird> it's sweden IN SPIRIT
19:13:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
19:24:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:36:14 <oklopol> FireFly: then i'm much closer than oerjan.
19:37:17 * FireFly does not possess the the information about where in Norway oerjan lives
19:37:41 <FireFly> Or oklopol, for that matter
19:38:01 <oklopol> i live in the closest finnish city to you
19:38:29 <oklopol> unless you count that little island in the middle
19:41:23 <MigoMipo> oklopol: Åland? BTW, I were in Turku/Åbo last week. Quite nice city.
19:42:38 <oklopol> and you lived in... sweden?
19:44:03 <Warrigal> !haskell putStrLn "\669jao\815"
19:44:05 <oklopol> !haskell putStrLn (5 + unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "printing" >> return 5))
19:44:35 <pikhq> unsafePerformIO is criminal.
19:44:35 <oklopol> !haskell print (5 + unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "printing" >> return 5))
19:44:57 <oklopol> doesn't unsafePerformIO work like that?
19:45:44 <pikhq> Sure, if it's imported. :P
19:47:54 <oerjan> Warrigal: ghc default I/O is latin-1. it's being changed though...
19:51:31 <oerjan> which means it's essentially just doing (mod 256) I/O
19:53:16 <pikhq> Which is evil and retarded.
19:53:57 <ehird> oerjan: it's not latin-1, really; it's just 8-bit
19:54:09 <ehird> it's UTF-8, for instance, if you want
19:54:14 <ehird> but you'll have to construct your own strings
19:54:22 <ehird> but yeah, ghc head fixed it
19:54:30 <GregorR> All character encodings other than UTF-8 are loserly.
19:55:06 <pikhq> GregorR: I am tolerant of other Unicode encodings.
19:55:19 <ehird> the only acceptable other encoding
19:55:28 <ehird> because it stores each character
19:55:37 <GregorR> And then we just call it int[]
19:55:40 <ehird> it's not a bad encoding inherently
19:55:41 <pikhq> I said "tolerant", not fond of.
19:55:49 <ehird> GregorR: String = [Char] = UCS-4 in Haskell
19:55:58 <pikhq> UTF-8 is the only Unicode encoding I want in common use.
19:56:12 <GregorR> ehird: OK, we who program in lower-level languages call it int[] :P
19:56:13 <pikhq> (aside from implementation; UCS-4 is nice as an internal representation)
19:56:27 <pikhq> GregorR: Speak for yourself.
19:56:40 <oerjan> ehird: latin-1 _is_ the first 256 code points of Unicode.
19:56:45 <pikhq> We who program in lower-level languages call that uint_32.
19:56:46 <Warrigal> !haskell putStrLn "\202\157jao\204\175"
19:56:57 <ehird> If I could choose the transport encoding we used, I would choose UCS-4.
19:57:04 <ehird> There is no reason for such anglo-centricity.
19:57:08 <ehird> But backwards compatibility,
19:57:12 -!- calamari has joined.
19:57:14 <GregorR> Can we all agree on UCS-4.gz?
20:06:13 -!- augur has joined.
20:08:01 <GregorR> http://bash.org/?482717 <-- bahahah, this is too brilliant
20:18:52 <GregorR> I'm glad you all enjoyed that quote so much.
20:20:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm quite happy with ubuntu. Just one thing: I need a kernel patch to make the hard disk protection thingy work. Not a kernel module, but a patch to the SATA controller driver thingy. Any hints for how to do this under Ubuntu?
20:21:14 <AnMaster> ehird, or I could upgrade to 2.6.31-rc4 to make it work
20:22:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't in ubuntu yet though :P
20:22:20 <ehird> You report a bug asking for it to be backported.
20:22:29 <AnMaster> ehird, point is: everything works except sending the "park the damn head NOW!!" message to the disk
20:23:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the ubuntu/debian package for the protection daemon has a README that tells debian and ubuntu users to patch their kernel if they want it to work. Doesn't say how though
20:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and there is a fun opengl thing you can use to view the sensor. It shows a model of a generic laptop move around as you move the laptop
20:23:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Building one manually and putting it in /boot.
20:24:00 <ehird> Of course, that breaks easy updating and the like.
20:24:15 <ehird> AnMaster: But, using apt you can get the source, do your patch, then tell apt to build it.
20:24:19 <ehird> And install that dpkg.
20:24:28 <ehird> As, e.g. kernelpackagename-sata-patch.
20:24:33 <AnMaster> it is useful actually... Because the sensor is mounted differently in different models. I had to tell the driver mine was mounted with X inverted
20:24:36 <ehird> Then remove it before upgrading to a new kernel.
20:25:07 <ehird> AnMaster: But don't build the kernel yourself or use the stock source.
20:25:10 <ehird> That's unlikely to go well.
20:25:13 <AnMaster> ehird, now I know in what direction to look :) thanks a lot
20:25:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, is it really important until the upgrade?
20:25:24 <ehird> It is a bit of a pain to do, and...
20:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I had to manually poke some configs to make Fn-F8 work. Ubuntu had a *broken* script for handling it
20:26:18 <AnMaster> issue: it broke when they changed X to use HAL
20:26:31 <AnMaster> ehird, supposed to disable the touchpad (but not the trackpoint)
20:26:50 <AnMaster> sadly it also disables the upper set of click buttons it seems.
20:26:55 <AnMaster> Probably a driver issue. Not sure
20:27:52 <ehird> I think that's probably a feature.
20:27:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, you enjoying Ubuntu? This is with Gnome?
20:28:03 <ehird> Who are you and what did you do to AnMaster?
20:28:10 <ehird> (And, thank you for doing whatever it was.)
20:28:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. I installed two KDE apps though: konsole and kate
20:28:28 <ehird> …Konsole is your KDE killer app?
20:28:38 <ehird> It's… just a terminal!
20:28:59 <ehird> Well yeah, but Brasero etc.
20:29:07 <ehird> I can't see how Konsole possibly does anything that another terminal doesn't.
20:29:13 <AnMaster> ehird, looked at it, seems to lack a lot of the stuff you can do in k3b
20:29:28 <ehird> Gnome lacks a lot of things, that's kinda the point.
20:29:37 <FireFly> What was the reason for you to run Ubuntu anyway?
20:29:37 <ehird> But I think Brasero does most everything.
20:29:59 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe I should take another look at it then
20:30:14 <ehird> Can you explain what on earth Konsole does? I'm at a loss.
20:30:21 <AnMaster> FireFly: that this is a laptop and I need stuff like easy changing between different networks and so on to *just work*
20:30:48 <FireFly> BeholdMyGlory runs Arch on his laptop
20:30:57 <AnMaster> arch worked nicely but I couldn't get a network manager thingy to work well on it. Part of the issue is still on ubuntu though: Buggy wlan driver when WPA2-PSK is used
20:31:01 <ehird> Yes, because he wants to enlarge his e-glory!
20:31:05 <pikhq> ehird: It's a nice terminal.
20:31:16 <FireFly> And, you could've gone Kubuntu if you wanted KDE..
20:31:26 <AnMaster> for now I recommend you avoid the iwlagn driver
20:31:33 <pikhq> Killer app, though?
20:31:36 <AnMaster> that includes most modern intel wireless cards
20:31:54 <ehird> gnome-terminal does like… everything Konsole does.
20:31:58 <ehird> Because neither does much at all
20:32:02 <ehird> Kate is, um, an editor.
20:32:08 <ehird> Nice if you like that sort of thing.
20:32:12 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, yeah. After netcfg. Anyway the driver bug means you need a multi-minute timeout for wpa_supplicant
20:32:20 <AnMaster> something which ubuntu seems to have anyway
20:32:58 <FireFly> kate is wonderful, I can see the point of wanting it
20:33:03 <AnMaster> another nice thing about thinkpads is that you can tell the hardware to not charge battery more than x %, and only start charging if less than y %
20:33:10 <FireFly> But yeah, I agree konsole is just another terminal
20:33:12 <AnMaster> this is to prolong battery lifetime
20:33:25 <ehird> FireFly: I can understand Kate, but Konsole's only extra features are things like transparency and silly colour schemes.
20:33:33 <AnMaster> getting that to work under ubuntu required exactly as much fiddling as under arch linux
20:33:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, doing highly custom things on Ubuntu isn't any easier.
20:33:55 <pikhq> ehird: And, of course, being a KDE application.
20:33:55 <FireFly> Yup, pretty much my thought, ehird
20:33:58 <ehird> Ubuntu is easier for 90% of things
20:34:00 <AnMaster> FireFly, what about kbabel though?
20:34:09 <ehird> pikhq: More like an anti-feature.
20:34:09 <AnMaster> that is the best .po editor I ever used
20:34:10 <pikhq> Which counts for quite a bit if you want integrated applications. ;)
20:34:14 <ehird> Qt is a nice toolkit, but…
20:34:17 <ehird> The KDE libraries?
20:34:20 <ehird> I much prefer Gnome's.
20:34:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, doing highly custom things on Ubuntu isn't any easier. <-- sometimes harder even.
20:34:31 <ehird> I mean, on a non-desktop-environment system, I'd prefer Gnome things over KDE.
20:34:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, "so don't do that".
20:34:55 <pikhq> I'd be much happier with either if they used Objective C.
20:35:01 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: Ubuntu is easier when you want your computer to do what the folks behind Ubuntu want it to do. Kind of like Windows and Microsoft.
20:35:10 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: You're an idiot.
20:35:11 * AnMaster wonders how much a separate -dev package actually saves in disk space. And how much is wasted in extra metadata for a separate package...
20:35:18 <AnMaster> both are probably insignificant
20:35:23 <ehird> Also, a troll. Also, a hateboy.
20:35:24 <AnMaster> well, I guess for most packages
20:35:26 <pikhq> C++ can be wrangled into being acceptable, but C... Urgh.
20:35:28 <ehird> Hateboys are worse than fanboys…
20:35:37 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, I'm talking about the end result.
20:35:41 <pikhq> Gobject is such an awful way of doing things.
20:35:42 <ehird> pikhq: Also— Vala.
20:35:49 <ehird> It's C# for GObject.
20:35:54 <pikhq> ehird: That is purely a matter of taste.
20:35:55 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, be reasonable, it is much better than windows
20:36:03 <ehird> GObject's saner when you consider internals.
20:36:13 <ehird> Anyway, Ubuntu is JUST as flexible as Arch and Debian.
20:36:22 <AnMaster> I just installed XP in virtualbox...
20:36:24 <ehird> It just does things a certain way unless you change it.
20:36:28 <pikhq> The end result, well. Both KDE and Gnome are decent, usable systems, which make different UI choices.
20:36:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you said XP used non-browser windows update too?
20:36:40 <ehird> pikhq: I wouldn't really find KDE usable for day-to-day
20:36:47 <pikhq> About as meaningful as Vi vs. Emacs.
20:36:47 <ehird> AnMaster: at least i remember it being so
20:36:48 <BeholdMyGlory> AnMaster: Well, okay, but still. I really feel less powerful when using Ubuntu desktop than when using Arch
20:36:59 <ehird> AnMaster: It sure did for me.
20:37:13 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: Behold my glory. Feel less powerful.
20:37:19 <ehird> Sounds like you have a bit of a god complex thing going on there.
20:37:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I have it open atm. Yes there is the *auto update* thingy separate from the browser. But that is only "poll in background" at some point and download + install any updates
20:37:36 <AnMaster> you can't see a list of them it seems
20:37:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Hrm, okay.
20:37:45 <AnMaster> or tell it to "check for updates now"
20:37:45 <ehird> I remember seeing a list.
20:37:54 <ehird> Oh, well that's silly.
20:37:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I didn't get one...
20:38:02 <ehird> That's the computaar's jobe.
20:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well it isn't silly if you have a connection like ais does
20:38:32 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: Not really, I just want my computer to do what I tell it to do, nothing more. No daemons starting by themselves without me making them do so, etc.
20:38:49 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: That was meant to be a *disproof* of what I said?!
20:38:54 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, err. What OS do you use?
20:39:06 <ehird> AnMaster: MagneticBitTwiddling 2009 edition
20:39:15 <ehird> I AM IN CONTROL. I FEEL CALM WHEN I AM IN CONTROL. IT DOES MY BIDDING.
20:39:23 <ehird> NOBODY ELSE SHALL ENTER MY ABODE.
20:40:57 <AnMaster> ehird, another question is coming shortly. Please stand by while pastebin is loading on the laptop...
20:42:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.com/d64c65732 <-- HOW? I'm the bash expert here and even I don't know
20:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Ahh, let me think.
20:42:48 <AnMaster> if it was a function type would say so
20:42:58 <ehird> it works for every package
20:43:07 <ehird> AnMaster: package is command-not-foun
20:43:30 <ehird> it's not a bash feature
20:43:34 <ehird> it's an ubuntu package
20:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: not hardcoded either
20:43:41 <ehird> it actually scans your local repo
20:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it hook into bash though...
20:43:53 <ehird> AnMaster: function is "command-not-found"
20:44:07 <AnMaster> set | grep command-not <-- no matches
20:44:21 <ehird> AnMaster: er, I think it's an executable
20:44:24 <ehird> try "command-not-found butt"
20:44:54 <AnMaster> ehird, just gives regular bash message about not finding command-not-found.. Guess the name was something else
20:45:00 <ehird> AnMaster: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommandNotFoundMagic
20:45:05 <ehird> Bash has a "command_not_found" handler that is called in the interactive mode when a command is not found. The first argument is the command that is not found. We hook a custom python script into it that has a database (gdbm or similar) with the available commands as keys and some information (like a list of packages it is in) as value. This lookup needs to be fast. This information is assembled from various sources:
20:45:08 <ehird> so command_not_found
20:45:24 <FireFly> [21:45:14] (jonas@~/scripts/sh)$ command_not_found_handle ac
20:45:25 <FireFly> Programmet "ac" är för närvarande inte installerat. Du kan installera det genom att ange:
20:45:59 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, does brasero not do what you wanted?
20:46:16 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right forgot to look
20:46:37 <ehird> if it doesn't, you should prolly report it as a bug in Launchpad; while Gnome apps themselves may not have many options, they should be able to produce any result that the "competition" can
20:46:45 <ehird> unless they're specifically designed to do the simple, common case
20:46:53 <GregorR> Are there any languages that use the Latin alphabet but have no upper- and lower-case?
20:47:07 <GregorR> Are there any natural languages that use the Latin alphabet but have no upper- and lower-case?
20:47:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see an option for making a CD bootable
20:47:13 <ehird> Lojban is a natural language.
20:48:44 <ehird> Brasero can boot a burnable ISO
20:48:45 <AnMaster> not something I need a lot though
20:48:48 <ehird> but I don't think you can set one
20:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But *creating* the iso
20:49:04 <AnMaster> anyway, for most purposes it looks like it is enough
20:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll try and avoid mentioning that it'll be using wodim. :)
20:49:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I did look for cdrecord and was slightly amused that it didn't include it
20:49:58 <ehird> AnMaster: it IS non-free…
20:50:00 <AnMaster> as long as that works on the computer *shrug*
20:50:07 <ehird> It may be in the non-free repos or universe or sth
20:50:28 <ehird> (use the Repository too thing in Preferences or Administration (I forget) to enable the extra repo(s))
20:50:44 <AnMaster> ehird, wodim had issues with the dvd drive in my desktop...
20:50:54 <ehird> I was just noting about the repositories.
20:51:24 <ehird> lol, from Wikipedia:
20:51:26 <ehird> [[Cdrtools - why do Linux distributions create bad forks?, essay from Jörg Schilling referring to cdrkit without mentioning its name]]
20:51:34 <ehird> the passive-aggressive equivalent of writing a novel without the letter e!
20:51:54 <AnMaster> ehird, point is. they did mess it up. As my own experience showed :P
20:52:13 <ehird> Also known as "bugs".
20:52:47 <AnMaster> btw about bootable in k3b... I can't find the option any more... The dialogs changed layout since back then. It was back on 3.5.6 or so
20:52:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I assume cfunge has never had a regression :P
20:52:57 <AnMaster> (the k3b on my desktop is 3.5.10 nowdays)
20:53:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Your English just regressed.
20:55:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I just came up with one thing that I suspect neither braswhatever or k3b can do: hybrid cds
20:55:51 <AnMaster> as in ISO<whatever the number was now again>/HFS
20:56:15 <AnMaster> not that I ever needed such a cd
20:56:24 <ehird> I... dearly miss that feature :-P
20:56:39 <AnMaster> ehird, does OS X still use it? Or did it drop it?
20:56:46 <ehird> I don't think it uses it.
20:57:16 <AnMaster> ah right it probably uses .DS_Store or similar to store the needed metadata nowdays
20:57:51 <ehird> .DS_Store is the bane of my existence.
20:57:56 <ehird> I wish I could totally obliterate it.
20:58:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that is why I avoid inserting any removable media in any mac.
20:58:35 <AnMaster> there are some other ones right?
20:59:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think it puts .DS_Store on removable media.
20:59:13 <ehird> Unless you actually do shit to the files in Finder, it won't add them, anyway.
20:59:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, right; TinkerTool can turn that off, though.
20:59:35 <AnMaster> Pre-OS X created a different set of directories files on everything
20:59:46 <ehird> wait, that's just over a network
20:59:48 <pikhq> I know for a fact that mkisofs can do that.
21:00:17 <ehird> And thus wodim can.
21:00:46 <pikhq> mkisofs -hfs foo bar baz -o foo.iso
21:00:52 <ehird> Same with wodim :P
21:01:21 <ehird> eglibc is a libc whose feature is "No Drepper". wodim is a CD recorder whose features are "No Schilling" and "regressions".
21:02:26 <ehird> Huh, k3b hasn't been updated for KDE 4.
21:02:38 <AnMaster> On FAT, pre-OS X created: TheVolumeSettingPref? Something like that. And RESOURCE.FRK?
21:02:38 <pikhq> In my estimation, "No Drepper" is a killer feature.
21:03:12 <ehird> You know what KDE 4's biggest stupidity is?
21:03:19 <ehird> The fucking blue active window shadow.
21:03:22 <ehird> SHADOWS DO NOT WORK LIKE THAT.
21:03:28 <ehird> NO, I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE NEON SHADOWS!
21:03:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jörg_Schilling
21:04:03 <AnMaster> ah found a list in: http://www.wellesley.edu/Computing/OSX/Intro/introOSX.html
21:04:10 <ehird> similar to tuomov wrt licensing
21:04:15 <ehird> hates distros doing anything to his software
21:04:17 <AnMaster> search for "TheVolumeSettings" to get to the right part
21:04:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> Huh, k3b hasn't been updated for KDE 4. <-- huh indeed
21:04:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> It's FUGLY! <-- change theme?
21:04:46 <ehird> Guess they're debating whether to rename it to k4b.
21:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: They should fix the existing theme :P
21:05:00 <pikhq> No, they're just very slow to port.
21:05:13 <ehird> Like Konversation.
21:05:19 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I had to turn off compiz. 3D acceleration for vbox guests is known broken if host is using compiz
21:05:22 <pikhq> KDE 4.3 has a different theme, BTW.
21:05:29 <ehird> pikhq: no it doesn't
21:05:31 <AnMaster> just change to "no effects" and it used metacity
21:05:32 <ehird> i've looked at the screenshot
21:05:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Metacity can do compositing stuff itself nowadays, iirc.
21:06:00 <ehird> It may not be compiz.
21:06:12 <ehird> pikhq: http://kde.org/announcements/announce_4.3-beta1/kcontrol4.png
21:06:46 <ehird> Gnome Do looks like Quicksilver for Gnome.
21:06:56 <ehird> That is a Good Thing.
21:06:59 <pikhq> I sincerely hope they just hadn't stuck the new theme in the beta.
21:07:04 <ehird> Hopefully it's more stable...
21:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it worked fine under metacity. A bit less effects. Seems I can't drag windows between virtual desktops by dragging them to the edge any more
21:07:10 <ehird> pikhq: what did it look like?
21:07:13 <pikhq> Because if they're shipping that in final, I'm stabbing someone.
21:07:22 <ehird> AnMaster: "A bit less effects." aaaaargh
21:07:23 <AnMaster> 3D in virtualbox seems to work
21:07:25 <pikhq> ehird: Like Oxygen with less fugly.
21:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well. The effects enabled on the "normal" setting were not too intrusive
21:07:44 <pikhq> The Plasma theme saw much more work.
21:07:47 <ehird> pikhq: That is not helpful :P
21:08:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant the grammar.
21:08:08 <pikhq> ehird: Called "Ozone".
21:08:24 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right. Did I treat "effects" as an uncountable?
21:08:26 <ehird> http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=39826 not this one, presumably
21:08:50 <pikhq> Gah. The KDE 4.3 RC announcement is using a beta screenshot.
21:08:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't even know, but it should be "A little fewer effects." or something.
21:08:56 <ehird> still sounds a bit awkward
21:09:02 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed as an uncountable then
21:09:17 <ehird> pikhq: http://news.softpedia.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/kde43rc1-large_001.jpg
21:09:20 <AnMaster> ehird, uncountable: like "water" or "milk" (you can't say, "a"/"an" about them)
21:09:31 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, right.
21:09:39 <pikhq> ehird: http://kde.org/announcements/announce_4.3-beta1/plasma.png This at least shows the new Plasma stuff.
21:09:50 <ehird> I would never use Plasma, ever
21:09:55 <AnMaster> ehird, "a bit less milk" would have been correct I believe (though rather odd in the context ;)
21:09:56 <ehird> I hate desktop widgets
21:10:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I did... yesterday. Horrible.
21:10:15 <ehird> KDE 4 is OK; widgets are not.
21:10:31 <pikhq> The KDE panel is *also* Plasma.
21:10:34 <ehird> "Let's place useless gadgets… on the place you cover with all your actual stuff!"
21:10:36 <ehird> "HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"
21:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird, synaptic package list (category listing) seems to come in three flavours: 1) "foo" 2) "foo (universe)" 3) "foo (multiverse)"
21:11:16 <ehird> AnMaster: different repos.
21:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, ah. What is the diff between them
21:11:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Open the repository manager thing in, I think, Administration; it has explanatory text.
21:12:16 <AnMaster> hm that seems to be mirror server setting
21:12:54 <AnMaster> ehird, ok... now why on earth is the linux kernel in "restricted"?
21:13:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Ubuntu add binary blob WiFi drivers and the like.
21:13:20 <pikhq> HURR MAKE NO SENSE YAY.
21:14:28 <AnMaster> actually I did. It is just that it installed "linux-restricted-modules-2.6.18-13-generic" by default. And when I was looking there yesterday it was middle of night. 5 minutes before I decided to go to bed
21:15:48 <AnMaster> any way to tell ubuntu to turn off bluetooth by default
21:16:02 <ehird> But, look in the regular places.
21:16:11 <ehird> I don't think it'll affect that much.
21:16:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and easy to forget to turn it off every time it wakes up
21:17:29 <AnMaster> ehird, powertop thinks it is roughly half a watt. And powertop running on idle system (on battery) is roughly 11.5 W
21:17:47 <AnMaster> not a lot no, but I want to maximise battery time
21:17:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, now, half a watt will get you seconds.
21:17:55 <ehird> And I mean seconds
21:18:04 <ehird> Not worth crippling in any way for.
21:18:22 <ehird> You already have the extra battery cells.
21:18:32 <AnMaster> ehird, battery time estimate jumped up by about 10 minutes after I turned bluetooth off though
21:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess either the "half watt" is very aprox. Or your calculation is off
21:19:17 <ehird> AnMaster: consider that your CPU takes up 35 watts
21:19:18 <AnMaster> or the estimated time is wrong
21:19:22 <ehird> hard drive, 10 watts
21:19:33 <ehird> RAM, about two watts per stick
21:19:46 <AnMaster> ehird, um. if total system drain on battery was calculated to 11 W. CPU can't be 35 W then
21:19:52 <ehird> AnMaster: at load.
21:20:06 <ehird> HD will be about 3w at idle
21:20:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well true. But I suspect most of the time I will actually just type during lectures and such
21:21:07 <ehird> I'm just saying that half a watt is rather pointless.
21:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, btw virtualbox is strange. It forwarded the battery status to the VM...
21:21:55 <ehird> That's not strange.
21:21:57 <ehird> That's well-integrated.
21:22:18 <ehird> If you install the driver things, the cursor movement is fluid, too.
21:22:22 <ehird> As it uses the host's.
21:22:33 <ehird> AnMaster: a lot of VMs can also, given a Windows guest, integrate those Windows.
21:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I wonder if it will let the VM change anything...
21:22:38 <ehird> i.e., they hover like normal windows
21:22:40 <ehird> use the same taskbar
21:22:47 <ehird> same taskbar icon set etc
21:22:49 <AnMaster> if so I bet windows will mess stuff up
21:22:57 <AnMaster> ehird, about that integration thingy: Not very
21:23:00 <ehird> those are mostly the paid ones like Parallels and VMWare Fusion for the Mac
21:23:13 <AnMaster> I got the start menu bard just above the gnome task bar
21:23:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It won't let it do anything to the host, no.
21:23:20 <ehird> You can do it, with some effort.
21:23:25 <ehird> But you have to explicitly let it.
21:23:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, the Mac VM products generally add a dock button that opens the Start menu.
21:23:50 <ehird> And use dock icons for applications, etc.
21:24:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well not just start menu. The whole windows taskbar thingy
21:24:13 <ehird> I was saying how better-integrating products do it.
21:25:10 <ehird> http://lispm.dyndns.org/symbolics-ui-examples/Bild-95.png
21:25:51 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I managed to get windows XP to use the SATA controller in virtualbox (yes I got the binary version since I need USB support too)... Was quite fun
21:26:13 <ehird> did you use a package for the binary one or downloaded it?
21:26:16 <ehird> I think Ubuntu has a package for it
21:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I checked: no package for it. Not even in restricted. Or searching for "virtualbox" and checking the full list didn't turn it up at least
21:26:50 <ehird> AnMaster: The open source one is -ose.
21:26:55 <ehird> The regular virtualbox one is the closed source one.
21:26:58 <ehird> Right in front of you, I'd guess.
21:27:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you enable the other repository in Software Sources?
21:27:24 <ehird> *repositories, maybe
21:27:42 <ehird> No, there's about 4.
21:27:56 <AnMaster> well all four on the first page are enabled
21:28:07 <AnMaster> that is: main, universe, restricted, multiverse
21:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I assume you used the .deb from Sun, anyway.
21:28:52 <ehird> As opposed to wantonly make installing.
21:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I used the *.deb from them yes
21:29:26 <AnMaster> you should know I'm obsessed with "everything should be known by package manager"
21:29:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Aha! But!
21:29:42 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure we "discussed" that before in here :P
21:29:59 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the "create package on fly" one? Right?
21:30:07 <ehird> ~/local instantly evaporates in the face the of pulverising package manager dictatorship!!
21:30:25 <AnMaster> ehird, except ~/local is nice for multiple versions side by side in a painless way
21:30:43 <ehird> True. But that's rare.
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21:31:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I test cfunge under old gcc too. Back to 3.4
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21:31:13 <AnMaster> gentoo installs them side by side
21:31:18 <ehird> there are multiple-version gcc packages in Debian/Ubuntu
21:31:31 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. But there are other packages like that. What about bash?
21:31:41 <AnMaster> when you want to check your shell script works in old versions
21:32:20 <AnMaster> I have bash 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 4.0 (last sub version for each as of about two weeks ago)
21:32:48 <AnMaster> maybe I should learn how it works. Probably easier to *use* than ssh tunnel?
21:33:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, I don't even go back to pre-3.4 so :P
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21:35:34 <AnMaster> btw the cd here is annoying ehird
21:35:39 <pikhq> I've got ~/local mostly in use for scripts.
21:35:49 <AnMaster> as in. half a second maybe one second
21:35:57 <AnMaster> irritating if you are installing a cd or such
21:36:16 <AnMaster> sure better while on battery for the battery power I guess
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21:57:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, my scripts are in ~/bin
21:58:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use ~/local/<name of package>/<optional version component>/ as --prefix
21:58:29 <AnMaster> I usually use the version bit always nowdays
21:59:15 <AnMaster> most stuff in ~/local are large and complex programs.~/local/wesnoth/svn, ~/local/llvm/svn and such that installs lots of files in --prefix
22:00:39 <AnMaster> ~/local/valgrind/svn too. valgrind hardcodes paths into the binaries at build time.
22:00:52 <AnMaster> for rather good reasons that are too complex to explain atm
22:02:24 <AnMaster> ubuntus help app thingy crashed
22:02:52 <AnMaster> system logs says the binary was "yelp"
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22:17:37 <HackEgo> * bark in a high-pitched tone; "the puppies yelped" \ * yip: a sharp high-pitched cry (especially by a dog) \ [17]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
22:19:58 <AnMaster> also gnome help browser thingy
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22:30:34 <ehird> AnMaster: did you send the crash report?
22:32:50 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't get any dialog about the crash
22:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: might have done it automatically
22:33:23 <ehird> With the release of Ubuntu 6.10, Ubuntu includes Apport[6].
22:33:23 <ehird> Apport works by installing a userspace helper which intercepts user processes when they would usually dump core, and writes crash reports to a staging location. A user daemon then invites the user to submit new crash reports to Ubuntu for analysis.[7]
22:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, Microsoft at least asks first. At least in XP
22:33:26 <ehird> Apport is disabled by default on official end-user-facing releases of Ubuntu.
22:33:35 <ehird> AnMaster: if it's anonymous it doesn't really matter
22:33:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well coredump could contain passwords and such
22:33:49 <ehird> crash reports are a nice way of reporting bugs
22:33:56 <ehird> it just automatically *poof*!
22:34:11 <ehird> AnMaster: could easily have a tag on stuff.
22:34:21 <ehird> APPORT_REDACT char *pw;
22:34:34 <ehird> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport seems you can just choose
22:34:39 <AnMaster> um? In the source code? For every program?
22:34:46 <AnMaster> Well, I guess they could do that
22:34:49 <ehird> AnMaster: obviously as part of a desktop environment
22:35:04 <ehird> tagging values like that is a good idea for other things too anyway
22:35:17 <ehird> I like the word anyhow
22:35:17 <AnMaster> not sure I would want to check the whole source code of large apps if I was a package maintainer.
22:35:24 <AnMaster> Lets say: read every line in wireshark?
22:35:34 <ehird> AnMaster: wireshark isn't part of Gnome.
22:35:39 <AnMaster> what about firefox or thunderbird
22:35:47 <ehird> also not part of gnome
22:35:48 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. So it only applies to official gnome apps?
22:35:54 <ehird> AnMaster: opt-in, rather
22:36:07 <ehird> but all official gnome apps would, yeah
22:36:25 <ehird> AnMaster: remember that all law-abiding gnome apps already adhere to something far more precise
22:36:41 <ehird> fun fact: the HIG dictates that windows should be as close to 1:phi in size as possible
22:41:30 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php
22:42:22 <ehird> GregorR: make a neural network for rating dinosaur comics based on their pixel colour codes
22:42:35 <ehird> basically what you're doing with colormatcher but that's only 1x1
22:43:07 <ehird> GregorR: Dude, that's gross. Why would I have sex with a mentally disabled person on their period?
22:43:21 <GregorR> I don't know, you tell me, you're the one that's doing it.
22:43:30 <ehird> Because you said I was!
22:43:50 <ehird> I am a beautiful flower.
22:43:53 <ehird> Beautiful, and sinless.
22:44:24 <ehird> Not cos(less), though.
22:44:37 <oerjan> darn i was _just_ going to say that
22:44:50 <oklopol> GregorR: it's not very nice to call people retards.
22:45:02 <ehird> oklopol: you do realise you did that to me before ignoring me, right? :D
22:45:10 <GregorR> oklopol: It's not intended to be nice. It's intended to be an insult. So, "duh"?
22:45:42 * oerjan notes that the "retired" meme hasn't spread here. probably been retired because it was retired.
22:46:06 <oklopol> well i was just joking, but it's not very nice to insult people either
22:46:12 <ehird> oerjan: it has spread here.
22:46:14 <ehird> For a few seconds.
22:46:29 <ehird> If you don't think that's spreading, you're retired.
22:46:41 <oklopol> right i should really try to remember ehird
22:46:41 <ehird> oklopol: See, this is what you get for ignoring people!
22:46:46 <GregorR> They were just born without oxygen.
22:46:59 <ehird> it is kind of hard to work without oxygen, i think
22:47:37 <oklopol> <ehird> oklopol: See, this is what you get for ignoring people! <<< yes, that's why i only do it as a last resort
22:47:41 <oerjan> (warning: not up to my usual latin grammar standards)
22:47:47 <ehird> oklopol: evidently you have failed at your task
22:47:50 <ehird> are you MENTALLY ignoring me?
22:47:53 <ehird> that would be some feat
22:48:01 <ehird> or just clogging, which, y'know, isn't really ignoring
22:48:03 <oerjan> we all know oklopol has mental feats
22:48:11 <ehird> but if you're mentally ignoring me and didn't notice I said anything and thus got confused, that's amazing
22:49:55 <oklopol> ehird: i'm reading logs, yes, i do want to know what you say, it's about controlling the amount of interaction.
22:50:20 <ehird> oklopol: will you marry me? FAIL TO INTERACT AT *THAT*!
22:50:50 <GregorR> Gay pedastric marriage ... PROBABLY not legal.
22:51:08 <ehird> GregorR: Guess what other love wasn't legal?
22:51:22 <ehird> (Turing's law, I know, I know.)
22:51:22 <GregorR> I WAS ACTUALLY TYPING THAT
22:51:38 <GregorR> I was actually typing "Turing's ... for, uh, that guy?"
22:51:46 <ehird> Turing for oklopol.
22:54:58 <ehird> oklopol: by silently not interacting, you're interacting very loudly
22:58:21 <AnMaster> huh got permission denied as root on ubuntu when accessing /home/<username>/.gvfs ... found it due to some root command running find and that reporting an error
22:59:26 <Ilari> AnMaster: Check logs for AVC denials?
22:59:52 <Ilari> Access Vector Cache. Part of SELinux.
22:59:58 <ehird> ubuntu doesn't use selinux...
23:00:15 <AnMaster> Ilari, selinux isn't enabled... though /selinux exists. But there are no files in there
23:00:51 <Ilari> AnMaster: What 'ls -ld' says about it?
23:01:03 <ehird> AnMaster: is this on the ubuntu machine?
23:01:12 <AnMaster> Ilari, as normal user? nothing. As root: permission denined
23:01:35 <ehird> AnMaster: /selinux shouldn't exist…
23:02:01 <AnMaster> Ilari, dr-x------ for permissions
23:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, check your livecd with 9.04?
23:02:29 <Ilari> AnMaster: Huh, ls should say something about it if it exists...
23:02:29 -!- Ilari has quit ("Reconnecting").
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23:02:36 <ehird> but selinux is an optional in ubuntu
23:02:40 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes I misunderstood you
23:02:42 <ehird> so i doubt it's enabled
23:03:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, copy paste to irc is a bit painful. haven't set up irc on it yet at all
23:03:11 <AnMaster> so irc is on different computer
23:03:15 <ehird> It'd take two seconds...
23:03:34 <ehird> Applications → Install/Remove → XChat Gnome → Tick → Install → Double click.
23:03:36 <AnMaster> ehird, really? bouncer is set to listen to 127.0.0.1 ...
23:03:38 <ehird> It even preconnects to Freenode.
23:03:43 <ehird> (Well, irc.ubuntu.com; same thing.)
23:03:51 <ehird> AnMaster: works as a temporary solution, no?
23:03:58 <ehird> as opposed to using a pastebin or manually retyping
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23:05:32 <anmaster_ub> dr-x------ 2 arvid arvid 0 Jul 26 21:19 .gvfs/
23:05:44 <anmaster_ub> ls: cannot access .gvfs: Permission denied
23:05:50 <Ilari> 0 size directory, huh?
23:05:57 <ehird> anmaster_ub: your client doth not respond to version!
23:06:23 <ehird> also xchat gnome > xchat >_>
23:06:37 <anmaster_ub> and it uses Swedish dict with no alternative to change
23:06:45 * anmaster_ub needs newer xchat to be able to use xchat then
23:08:13 <Ilari> Well, maybe empty directory appears as 0 size on Ext4. Some filesystems have empty directories appear as size >0 (Reiserfs has 48 bytes for empty dir).
23:08:48 <anmaster_ub> drwxr-xr-x 2 arvid arvid 4096 Jul 27 00:08 tmp
23:09:20 <anmaster_ub> iirc gvfs is some "gnome virtual filesystem" thingy
23:09:29 <anmaster_ub> but I can't imagine it fucking things up that much
23:09:43 <Ilari> anmaster_ub: Fuse?
23:09:51 <anmaster_ub> gvfs-fuse-daemon /home/arvid/.gvfs fuse.gvfs-fuse-daemon rw,nosuid,nodev,user_id=1000,group_id=1000 0 0
23:10:42 <anmaster_ub> ehird, xchat-gnome package desc: "GNOME's philosophy in terms of user interfaces has been progressing towards
23:10:43 <anmaster_ub> presenting the user with few options, yet sane defaults. While many of the
23:10:43 <anmaster_ub> normal X-Chat options will be preserved inside GConf, only the most common
23:10:43 <anmaster_ub> settings will be included in the main user interface."
23:10:50 <Ilari> anmaster_ub: Well, that might explain the EACCESS.
23:10:57 <anmaster_ub> anyway when I use xchat I tend to change nearly all the options
23:11:06 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Yes, but xchat-gnome's defaults are less retarded.
23:11:25 <anmaster_ub> ehird, I'll give it a try but I'm not optimistic
23:11:34 <anmaster_ub> Ilari, yes... nfs seems to do that too to root btw
23:11:36 <pikhq> Oh, right. GVFS is the FUSE binding to the GNOME virtual filesystem.
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23:11:55 <ehird> Accessing gnome virtual filesystems.
23:12:37 <ehird> Filesystems in Gnome that are not actual local filesystems.
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23:13:03 <pikhq> Most everything Nautilus can browse that is not actually mounted.
23:13:13 <anmaster_ub> pikhq, I haven't used nautilus much yet...
23:13:25 <ehird> ais523: You might want to leave, the universe is being destroyed. Specifically, AnMaster is using Ubuntu and Gnome and being relatively okay with it.
23:13:29 <pikhq> anmaster_ub: You know KDE's KIO? That, but GNOME.
23:13:37 <ehird> I mean, it's kind of embarrassing watching the universe be destroyed, you know?
23:13:44 <anmaster_ub> pikhq, to me konq is mostly a web browser...
23:13:49 <ais523> ehird: is there an emoticon to indicate that you might be slightly stroppy due to events in RL, and are generally annoyed, but not at anybody in this channel?
23:13:59 <ehird> ais523: Yes, "/part"
23:14:05 <ais523> ehird: no, it's sort of the opposite
23:14:05 <anmaster_ub> ehird, does xchat-gnome in ubuntu support multiple languages for spell checking *and allows you to change on the fly at runtime*
23:14:13 <ehird> ais523: Stops it affecting anyone else
23:14:17 <ehird> anmaster_ub: That's handled by Gnome.
23:14:18 <ais523> ehird: ah, fair enough
23:14:30 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Spelling correction is Gnome-wide.
23:14:36 <ehird> ais523: I was joking, though
23:14:41 <anmaster_ub> ehird, well I want different languages for different channels
23:14:51 <anmaster_ub> so I need to either store it per channel or change on the fly
23:14:51 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Stop making typos
23:14:58 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Anyway, look in Gnome settings.
23:15:04 <ehird> There's probably a way to use both dictionaries.
23:15:30 <ehird> xchat-gnome was last released in 2007 :P
23:15:40 <ehird> (Although there's been an svn commit as recently as three months ago.)
23:16:06 <ehird> Ooh, four days, even.
23:16:12 <ehird> http://git.gnome.org/cgit/xchat-gnome/log/
23:16:16 <anmaster_ub> it only works when compiled against aspell directly. As opposed to for example gnome-spelling
23:16:33 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Just see if you can use two dictionaries globally at once in Gnome.
23:16:34 <ehird> That'll do the trick.
23:16:59 <ehird> That kind of thing wouldn't go in GConf.
23:17:01 <ehird> Probably in Preferences.
23:17:12 <anmaster_ub> ehird, you mean as in a union of two dicts?
23:17:30 <ehird> Unless "tho" → "the" is an insanely common Swedish typo you make or something it should work fine.
23:17:35 <anmaster_ub> that is highly useless. Means I won't notice telephone/telefon (one is English, the other Swedish)
23:17:50 <ehird> I can't think of an elegant way to do it system-wide /shrug
23:18:00 <ehird> Anyway, I'm going to assume that Swedish people know what telephone means.
23:18:05 <ehird> Also, typing ph instead of f is pretty damn hard.
23:18:06 <anmaster_ub> ehird, recompile xchat against stock aspell backend seems like the only way :P
23:18:43 <anmaster_ub> ehird, no... I often mix up what language I'm typing in when talking in *Swedish* channels :P
23:19:17 <ehird> Well that's okay. Anyway, let me introduce myself, for mi'e ,Eli.at.xrd.
23:19:27 <ais523> ehird: what, you're learning Lojban?
23:19:38 <ais523> I'm actually more surprised at that than at AnMaster using Ubuntu
23:19:44 <Sgeo> Shouldn't there be a la in there?
23:19:47 <ehird> ais523: No, I learned how to introduce myself and say "I say '<introduction>'" in 2007
23:19:57 <anmaster_ub> ah wait... not against aspell directly... *against gtkspell* ...
23:19:59 <ehird> I want to learn Lojban sometime, though.
23:20:02 <ehird> ais523: Why's it surprising, anyway?
23:20:10 <ais523> ehird: 'xrd' is a great way to spell your surname
23:20:10 <Sgeo> I learned a bit of lojban a while ago
23:20:18 <ehird> ais523: There's a more accurate way, iirc.
23:20:22 <ehird> Warrigal came up with it or something.
23:20:25 <ehird> That may have been for my first name.
23:20:26 <ais523> anmaster_ub: I suspect Ubuntu will learn a lot from you
23:20:30 <anmaster_ub> anyway now to figure out how in ubuntu. Hopefully this won't involve recompiling... or ehird will go mad
23:20:38 <Sgeo> I can say the man is a woman. le nanmu cu ninmu
23:20:40 <ehird> ais523: No, he'll try and teach them something and they'll call him bonkers :-P
23:20:53 <ais523> I mean 'could', not 'will'
23:21:04 * ais523 is annoyed at Ubuntu's typical bug response
23:21:04 <ehird> "OK, now that I can use a language per channel, I'd like to be able to switch dictionaries mid-sentence."
23:21:09 <ais523> it's considerably worse than Debian's
23:21:10 <ehird> "…I hate you, Norlander."
23:21:13 <anmaster_ub> ais523, anyway I want things to work... And I thought ubuntu was all about *sane defaults*
23:21:17 <ehird> anmaster_ub: It is!
23:21:20 <ehird> You're just not sane.
23:21:33 <anmaster_ub> ehird, English + native language is rather common
23:21:40 <ehird> I'm joking, sheesh.
23:21:46 <ais523> anmaster_ub: I'd say that wanting to use multiple languages in one situation can't possibly be a default
23:21:53 <ais523> what you're complaining about is that it can't easily be customised
23:22:13 <anmaster_ub> ais523, I just want to be able to change dict for spell checking in xchat on the fly
23:22:33 <ehird> Yes, but Ubuntu make X-Chat use the Gnome spelling correction.
23:22:40 <ehird> So that, you know, things are CONSISTENT and INTEGRATED.
23:22:45 <ehird> Which is… kind of the point.
23:22:50 <ehird> ais523: anyway, why is me learning Lojban surprising?
23:22:56 <ehird> anmaster_ub: I don't know.
23:23:01 <ais523> ehird: just I have a mental list of Lojban users, and you aren't on it
23:23:14 <ehird> Lojban is awesome.
23:23:24 <ehird> I'm going to ask #lojban how best to Lojbanise my name now.
23:23:42 <ehird> ais523: "xrd" does annoy me a bit; I seem to recall the problem is that Lojban simply doesn't have an h.
23:23:46 <ehird> But it's punctuation.
23:23:55 <ais523> heh, same as ancient greek
23:23:59 <ais523> h was an accent over vowels
23:24:06 <ehird> It has "i", but it's "ee".
23:24:18 -!- anmaster_ub has quit ("Lmnar").
23:24:24 <ais523> "hurd" would be closer to the pronouciation you want, wouldn't it be?
23:24:30 <ais523> or am I wrong as to how to say your name?
23:24:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm relatively sure the default quit message /can/ be changed
23:25:17 <ehird> Wow, it defaulted to using the language everything else does.
23:25:19 <AnMaster> anyway ubuntu would be horrible on a desktop
23:25:25 <ehird> …………………………………what?
23:25:31 <AnMaster> good for laptops with changing configuration and so on
23:25:41 <AnMaster> but a desktop? You don't connect to different networks all the time
23:25:42 <ehird> Oh, you mean "I hate Ubuntu but can tolerate it here".
23:25:52 <ehird> Not "Ubuntu would be objectively terrible on non-portable computers".
23:25:58 <ais523> oh, I think I see AnMaster's point here
23:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think arch and gentoo > ubuntu when it is on desktops.
23:26:11 <ais523> Ubuntu is what you'd stick onto a hard-drive that repeatedly got placed into lots of different computers
23:26:19 <AnMaster> the reason I want ubuntu on a laptop is that stuff like suspending and so on works more or less out of the box
23:26:23 <ehird> ais523: I see his point, it's just really stupid; Ubuntu's and Gnome's integration does NOT stop at "you can change networks easily", at all.
23:26:24 <ais523> for what should be blindingly obvious reasons
23:26:35 <ais523> ehird: yes, but that's what's important for him
23:26:42 <ehird> oklopol: are you only ignoring me in here? :D
23:26:57 <AnMaster> a portable install on a usb stick? Ubuntu unless it is easier to cram gentoo into there
23:27:06 <AnMaster> I know a non-gentoo live cd based on gentoo
23:27:07 <ehird> ais523: I tend to ignore that because experience shows his priorities are… uh…
23:27:10 <oklopol> ehird: i realized you were right in that i should ignore you mentally
23:27:29 <oklopol> cannot miss the fact you highlighted me though, guess i should read that one
23:27:40 <oklopol> except, well, that's exactly what i want to ignore i guess :D
23:27:45 <ehird> oklopol: I apologise you and worship at the altar of your altarification.
23:27:50 <ehird> ("I apologise you" :D)
23:27:54 -!- anmaster_ub has joined.
23:29:01 <ehird> anmaster_ub: To assure you have an eternal vitriolic hatred of xchat-gnome, note that it hides the user list unless you click "Users". :)
23:29:02 <oklopol> ehird: accepted i guess, i hate ignoring people.
23:29:10 <oklopol> except mental ignoring is actually quite fun
23:29:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:29:38 <oklopol> but as i only did it for about 5 minutes, can't say i'm very fluent
23:29:41 <anmaster_ub> ehird, I'm not using xchat-gnome atm... I'm going to try to figure this out first
23:29:44 -!- anmaster_ub has quit (Client Quit).
23:29:55 <ehird> Surprised he would even try after that.
23:30:06 <oklopol> in a long list of messages from non-ignored people, i tend to automatically start reading messages without checking nick
23:30:20 <oklopol> because you can always tell from content anyway
23:30:22 <ehird> oklopol: just ignore messages with fnord in them. including this one. if you can start doing this while still ignoring this message, you're amazing.
23:30:33 <ehird> requires you to also — fnord — know to do it before starting.
23:30:43 <oklopol> which basically means half the time i'm reading the first few words of what i'm supposed to be ignoring
23:31:08 <oklopol> ehird: i can ignore everything after fnord
23:31:17 <oklopol> by not focusing my eyes on it
23:31:26 <ehird> you were meant to fnord ignore the previous parts too.
23:31:41 <oklopol> basically i'm supposed to forget what i read once i see the fnord? :P
23:32:06 <ais523> actually, a fnord wasn't supposed to prevent you reading the rest of the line
23:32:19 <oklopol> i am not very good at forgetting stuff actively
23:32:29 <ais523> it was just the fnord yourself you couldn't notice, but your eyes crossing one made you vaguely uncomfortable
23:32:43 <ais523> so if enough fnords were sprinkled in something, you'd stop reading it and do something else
23:32:46 <ehird> oklopol: no you're not meant to read it in the first place
23:32:53 <oklopol> ais523: you do realize i stop reading after your fnords?
23:33:07 <ehird> I'll save you the fnord
23:33:10 <oklopol> ehird: right. i prefer sticking to stuff that's possible.
23:33:23 <ehird> doesn't work the other way, sorta
23:33:24 <ais523> what about doing it XML-style? <fnord>Do you read this?</fnord> What about this/
23:33:44 <oklopol> ais523: i skipped the in-between
23:33:59 <oklopol> except i know what's in-between anyway
23:34:11 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's allowed either
23:34:58 <AnMaster> ehird, ais523: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xchat/+bug/129514
23:35:18 <ais523> AnMaster: IME reporting a bug to Ubuntu has no effect
23:35:19 <ehird> darn, you didn't report it
23:35:24 <ais523> no matter who reports it
23:35:27 <ehird> ais523: you're just bitter :
23:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, well that was the wrong one... So much for googling for the same thing on the other computer
23:35:47 <oklopol> ais523: kinda like voting doesn't matter huh
23:36:03 <ais523> oklopol: voting has a chance to matter when you do it
23:36:05 <ais523> admittedly, a small one
23:36:18 <oklopol> i'm sure ubuntu bug reports have a greater chance of that :P
23:36:19 <ais523> you can think of it this way: I vote due to the possibility that without me, there would be a draw
23:36:29 <ais523> that's better than not voting
23:36:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:36:38 <AnMaster> here we go for now: X forwarding from gentoo
23:36:43 <ais523> also, you can effectively get more than one vote by trying to sway the opinions of others
23:37:07 <ehird> ais523: OTOH, doing so subversively is evil
23:37:11 <oklopol> ais523: i'm familiar with the basic things you can philosophize about voting.
23:37:16 <ais523> ehird: yes, I don't do so subversively
23:37:25 <ais523> I get into interesting political discussions with people instead
23:37:47 <ais523> and talk about, say, how the Green Party has one of the saner technology policies out of all the parties in the EU elections
23:38:15 <ehird> I'd have political discussions with people but anyone too far to the right of me tends to be a dangerous psychopath and anyone too far to the left tends to have completely unimplementable idealist theories that irritate the hell out of me
23:38:31 <ehird> and it's kinda hard to have an interesting political discussion when you both agree almost entirely on everything
23:38:57 <ehird> ((ais523: but the pirate party has the sanest))
23:39:02 <ehird> well, digital copyright
23:39:05 <ehird> which is basically a subset.
23:39:08 <ais523> ehird: oh, quite possibly, but they weren't standing in the UK elections
23:39:15 <ais523> well, the UK EU elections
23:39:35 <ehird> it doesn't, but the EU elections don't, either
23:39:54 <AnMaster> it uses the local theme settings
23:40:28 <oklopol> what's that thing they need people's signatures for for making a party official
23:40:53 <ehird> oklopol: pregnancy
23:41:14 <oklopol> signed that for the finnish pirate party, because it was during a break between lectures, and i knew no one else would want to be the first to sign it
23:41:20 <oklopol> after me, half the people did :P
23:41:49 <oklopol> no no a paper, they collect like names, and when there's enough, they can become a party. or something like that.
23:41:55 <ehird> <AnMaster> I hate lawyers because it's trendy
23:42:01 <ehird> <AnMaster> So what if they're among the most intelligent people
23:42:06 <ehird> <AnMaster> They're eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
23:42:24 <ehird> 23:41 AnMaster: oklopol, a party of lawyers? 23:41 AnMaster: *shudder*
23:42:28 <AnMaster> laywer jokes are always acceptable
23:43:00 <ehird> <AnMaster> "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" <AnMaster> Shakespeare was totally hating on lawyers right? <AnMaster> I'm fairly sure it was that <AnMaster> Stop shattering my illusions
23:43:08 <ehird> AnMaster: _some_ lawyers are among the most intelligent people?
23:43:10 <AnMaster> there are laywers working for the FSF and such
23:44:08 <AnMaster> ehird, but just look at SCO. And all the cease and desist letters sent to open source
23:44:21 <AnMaster> clearly evil lawyers are far from uncommon
23:44:27 <oklopol> the programs in our uni for everything law related are incredibly hard and tons of fun, according to what i've heard, and what i'm sure about.
23:44:31 <ehird> Idiotic swedes are far from uncommon
23:44:36 <ehird> Source: AnMaster is in this channel
23:44:45 <ehird> and makes up a large percentage of the swedes (in this channel)
23:44:51 <ehird> Great argument, there.
23:45:09 <ehird> Lojban update: .eli,yt.xyrd. is best
23:45:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what about open source game *similar* to starcraft in the idea. that got a ceast and desist letter
23:45:33 <ehird> AnMaster: And extrapolating from three examples, we can conclude that most lawyers are evil.
23:45:37 <AnMaster> anyway there are several others. Just use google
23:45:39 <ehird> oklopol: apparently
23:45:47 <ehird> Wow! SEVERAL OTHER evil lawyers!
23:45:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm too lazy to dig up examples for you
23:45:55 <ehird> There are also several evil secretaries.
23:46:03 <ehird> Now let's all make jokes about secretaries being evil scum.
23:46:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the lawyers of Boeing sending a DMCA notice to some author who had made a 3D model of some WW2 Boeing aircraft?
23:46:55 <ehird> Do you think at, like, 50 examples, the fundamental nature of your argument will change and be a valid way of showing that most lawyers are evil?
23:46:56 <oklopol> there's nothing evil about exploiting the legal system :o
23:47:15 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, most lawyers involved with computer industry
23:47:28 <AnMaster> which is far from all of course
23:47:35 <ehird> AnMaster: No, that's simply false and idiotic.
23:47:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Guess what happens when a lawyer is really evil?
23:47:46 <ehird> It's reported on and made a fuss about.
23:47:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also I never claimed most before you suggested it
23:47:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Guess what happens when a lawyer is normal and decent?
23:48:01 <AnMaster> I just said it wasn't an insignificant percentage
23:48:06 <ehird> Because it's the most common thing.
23:48:16 <AnMaster> ehird, but maybe they should work more on PR then
23:48:36 <ehird> "Today in Sweden, a lawyer made reasoned legal arguments based on actual evidence."
23:48:39 <ehird> "A press conference was held."
23:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway why do you seem to take this personally?
23:48:51 <oklopol> i don't really believe in evil, but that may not be much of a surprise
23:49:08 <ehird> I don't take it personally, but I take offence to your generalisation of a perfectly fine group of people.
23:49:16 <ehird> If I take offence at a racist joke, am I black?
23:49:25 <ehird> (Or, fuck, white. Asian. Anything.)
23:50:01 <AnMaster> you should take offence instead
23:50:13 <ehird> No, I replace similar-sounding words like "uni" with "jewni".
23:50:26 <ehird> I don't say "As we all know, Jews are evil."
23:50:46 <ehird> If you replaced "voyeur" with "lawyeur", I wouldn't be taking offence.
23:50:55 <ehird> Although I'd probably wonder wtf you're on about.
23:51:46 <ehird> http://www.jewtube.com/
23:51:48 <ehird> It… actually exists.
23:52:07 <FireFly> And it's actually related to jewish videos
23:52:08 <oklopol> damn your fast internet connection
23:52:10 <ehird> [[JewTube is a free video sharing website comprising Jewish-oriented user-generated content. JewTube was founded by Jeremy Kossen, a Los Angeles-based entrepreneur.
23:52:11 <ehird> Visitors to the site can view videos on a wide array of Jewish-themed content, including everything from Jewish cooking to "alternative animated endings" to the Sacha Baron Cohen film, "Borat".[1]
23:52:13 <ehird> Google is challenging a New York City based company, NetParty, for the use of the name "JewTube", on trademark grounds. NetParty is not related or affiliated with the JewTube website.[2] In a related story, JewTube, having registered the JewTube domain a year before NetParty filed with the USPTO, also plans on contesting NetParty's LLC's filing.[3]]]
23:52:18 <ehird> Yes… Borat is… about Jewishness…
23:52:21 <oklopol> i just assumed it'd be spam
23:52:39 <ehird> Similarly, the Colbert Report is about catholicism.
23:53:31 <oklopol> was borat the one where the dude was an iraXian superman
23:54:02 <oklopol> well as if i could remember which
23:54:04 <ehird> oklopol: Kazakhstanian, actually.
23:54:09 <FireFly> Oh... faster than I thought... 11.34 Mbit/s
23:55:27 <oklopol> i don't know even which country kazakhstan is
23:55:42 <oklopol> i think it's one that's more wide than it's tall
23:55:51 <ehird> It's the ninth largest in the world, apparently.
23:55:54 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kazakhstan_(orthographic_projection).svg
23:56:03 <ehird> Not all that big. :P
23:56:57 <ehird> Their potassium is the BOMB, man.
23:57:01 <ehird> Totally potent shit.
23:58:08 <oklopol> now if only that image loaded at least a tiny bit faster
23:58:21 <pikhq> ehird: Sacha Baron Cohen is, in fact, Jewish.
23:58:36 <ehird> 23:52 ehird: Similarly, the Colbert Report is about catholicism.
23:58:39 <ehird> Colbert is also catholic.
23:58:44 <ehird> Doesn't mean it belongs on Catholitube.
00:01:15 -!- ehird has changed nick to eli_yt.
00:01:47 -!- eli_yt has changed nick to eli_yt`xyrd.
00:02:03 -!- eli_yt`xyrd has changed nick to eli`yt_xyrd.
00:02:57 <AnMaster> here we go.. recompiling xchat...
00:03:34 <oerjan> http://www.catholic-tube.com/
00:04:36 <oklopol> videos about me, supplied by you and your friends.
00:04:40 * oerjan thinks ehird will find the lead story there suitable wtf :D
00:05:07 <eli`yt_xyrd> Dammit, how do you set up an opposing movement to that? :-)
00:05:46 <oerjan> eli`yt_xyrd: an atheist would use the placebo effect for that purpose, i think
00:06:03 <oerjan> oklopol: some us black guy
00:06:21 <eli`yt_xyrd> ReligionChristian,[3] former member of United Church of Christ[4][5]
00:06:43 <eli`yt_xyrd> congregationalist & presbyterian sez [[United Church of Christ]]
00:06:49 <eli`yt_xyrd> The UCC maintains full communion with several other mainline Protestant denominations and participates in worldwide ecumenical efforts. The UCC has historically favored progressive, or liberal, views on civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, abortion, and other issues. Congregations have extensive, perhaps definitive, authority over matters of doctrine and ministry, though, and may or may not support the national body's theological or moral stan
00:07:38 <oklopol> are all us presidents religious nowadays?
00:07:48 <oklopol> i'm about as clueless about these things as an infant
00:07:58 <eli`yt_xyrd> oklopol: every single US president has been religious
00:08:18 <eli`yt_xyrd> but they still believe there was a god guy
00:08:26 <eli`yt_xyrd> oklopol: yes, by over-zealous atheists seeking confirmation
00:09:37 -!- eli`yt_xyrd has changed nick to elliott.
00:09:43 <elliott> i hate how this is registered
00:09:55 <GregorR> I recall some poll showing that if somebody was an atheist, but otherwise everybody agreed with them about everything, they still wouldn't win in a US presidential race. Or even come close.
00:09:55 <elliott> it's registered by elliottcable
00:10:10 -!- elliott has changed nick to ehird.
00:10:31 <oklopol> GregorR: your country rocks :P
00:10:44 -!- ehird has changed nick to elliott.
00:10:50 <oklopol> can't say i know what the state is in finland.
00:11:06 <elliott> 112 days since use, excellent
00:11:16 <GregorR> (Also, a gay man could potentially win, but narrowly, it was like 30% who would refuse to vote for him based on that alone)
00:11:44 -!- elliott has changed nick to ehird.
00:11:54 <ehird> apparently the account owner has to be inactive
00:12:01 <ehird> they pointed out he was in #freenode :)
00:12:24 <ehird> hmm that means I could hog hundreds of nicks
00:12:25 <GregorR> Somebody registered 'Gregor' five weeks ago.
00:12:27 <ehird> and just stay online the account
00:12:30 <GregorR> To that I say, "Gee, I'm a retard"
00:12:38 <ehird> GregorR: just give it 60 days :P
00:12:52 <GregorR> But I wanna drink goat's blood!
00:13:32 <ehird> oklopol: you said you were gonna think for a few hours when i asked how exactly your OS would visualise objects
00:13:37 <ehird> did you ever finish that thinking :D
00:14:12 <oklopol> oh i don't think i even started :D
00:14:23 <oklopol> you do realize it was like a year ago that i was interested in os stuff
00:14:40 <ehird> oklopol: well yeah but you're not even interested in computers any more
00:14:47 <ehird> so everything is gonna be backdated
00:15:01 <AnMaster> damn it seems gtkspell is too old too
00:15:09 <GregorR> He's only interested in gay sex, torture and murder.
00:15:35 <ehird> oklopol: are those vjn people still spamming in finnish?
00:15:38 <ehird> i suspect them of doing it non-stop for years without sleeping
00:15:54 <AnMaster> ehird, btw when googling I found a highly insane thread at the ubuntu forums...
00:15:57 <oklopol> but, pretty much all of vjn is currently in the army
00:16:02 <AnMaster> not sure if it is safe to link it to you
00:16:07 <ehird> AnMaster: sure thing.
00:16:13 <AnMaster> actually. Not a good idea AT ALL.
00:16:13 <ehird> oklopol: mandatory .mil service?
00:16:17 <ehird> AnMaster: do it bitch
00:16:21 <oklopol> except one who was there for 3 days and got bored, one who's me, and one who did it ages ago
00:16:30 <ehird> or i'll find an openssl exploit and hax your computer to find the link
00:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, lets just say it is someone recompiling packages on ubuntu with -funroll-loops...
00:16:55 <oklopol> GregorR: actually i take back my insult, finland is worse :P
00:17:00 <ehird> it'll be avant garde
00:17:00 <AnMaster> ehird, ... http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=101097
00:17:03 <ehird> oklopol: insult at what
00:17:13 <oklopol> ehird: that poll thing GregorR mentioned
00:17:19 <ehird> oklopol: what did you say about it?
00:17:33 <oklopol> does us have mandatory mil? :P
00:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, and gentoo devs would agree too
00:18:17 <oklopol> ehird: #vjn.priv has most of the action nowadays
00:18:25 <ehird> oklopol: sounds terribly private.
00:18:37 <ehird> it's ok, i'm happy being part of the hoi polloi
00:18:42 <ehird> which i guess consists of… me
00:18:54 <ehird> unless .priv has Q
00:18:55 <oklopol> your being on #vjn may induce okoing there ofc, although you probably leave soon.
00:19:46 <oklopol> .priv is for voiced people and ops really
00:20:22 <oklopol> except this johan who we know from volimo's invading a few of his channels has an autovoice too
00:20:59 <ehird> didn't you guys sign up as a corporation or something? or was that a religion
00:21:03 <ehird> anyway, you should do it as a religion instead
00:21:07 <ehird> i think everything should be a religion
00:21:13 <ehird> i mean you can only have one religion
00:21:17 <ehird> so it'd enforce cliqueness
00:21:34 <ehird> oklopol: that sounds like a very pointless status
00:21:35 <oklopol> we were thinking about religion, but most of us don't want the possible press interest
00:21:56 <ehird> oklopol: methinks you overestimate your importance :D
00:22:38 <AnMaster> idea: install new gtkspell and xchat in ~/local
00:22:51 <AnMaster> ehird, is that a better/worse idea than upgrading it system wide?
00:22:54 <oklopol> my friend's mum works for a paper, she'd definitely write the story at least
00:23:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a pretty bad idea.
00:23:17 <oklopol> which said friend wouldn't want
00:23:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well I can't live without proper spell checking in irc client. And that means I need to do either of those
00:23:32 <AnMaster> since I found in changelog that this is real real issue
00:23:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:23:36 <ehird> AnMaster: so you want it in xchat but don't need it in firefox?
00:23:44 <ehird> do you never type in two languages in firefox too?
00:23:50 <ehird> an app-specific "solution" to this is silly
00:24:04 <AnMaster> ehird, err I can change language in firefox already?
00:24:26 <ehird> AnMaster: If it works how you want, then that's just Gnome's widget.
00:24:28 <ehird> Install xchat-gnome and it should use it.
00:24:37 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it isn't app specifc
00:24:42 <ehird> XChat doesn't use Gnome stuff, so.
00:24:43 <AnMaster> anything using gtkspell can use it
00:24:55 <ehird> As I said, I doubt it's gtkspell.
00:25:11 <AnMaster> http://gtkspell.sourceforge.net/ChangeLog
00:25:16 <ehird> Just install xchat-gnome and see if it works, ffs.
00:25:17 <AnMaster> * Fix feature request #1523881, #1643622 and #2054637
00:25:17 <AnMaster> by adding a Language selector sub-menu.
00:25:32 <ehird> You're an idiot and clearly cannot comprehend English
00:25:43 <GregorR> http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/garfield-lol.jpg
00:25:43 <ehird> Also, your argument method consists of yelling.
00:25:51 <ehird> I haven't /ignored someone in a while.
00:26:04 <ehird> Like 2006-2007 old
00:26:23 <AnMaster> ehird, very well I compiled it in "/local and used LD_PRELOAD. Guess what now xchat automatically has that pop up menu option
00:26:32 <AnMaster> ehird, do you finally believe me?
00:26:38 <GregorR> I'd say more like, 2008 old :P
00:26:48 <ehird> GregorR: That image is copied.
00:26:55 <ehird> From the, I think, dinosaur comic forums.
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00:27:47 <AnMaster> ais523, sigh I guess ehird ignored me just before I told him about LD_PRELOAD?
00:27:51 <oerjan> `translatefrom se Later
00:28:18 <ais523> AnMaster: are you saying that you got it to work?
00:28:44 <AnMaster> ais523, yes with LD_PRELOADing a newer gtkspell.so
00:28:47 <oerjan> `translatefrom no Later
00:29:00 <AnMaster> just to check that I was right
00:29:40 <AnMaster> oh and xchat-gnome doesn't support it
00:31:52 <AnMaster> even better: xchat-gnome destroyed the normal xchat settings
00:32:03 <AnMaster> I guess ehird is REALLY proud now
00:32:36 <AnMaster> ais523, please tell ehird that 1) it was gtkspell 2) xchat-gnome didn't work 3) xchat-gnome mangled preferences from normal xchat.
00:32:47 <ais523> <AnMaster> ais523, please tell ehird that 1) it was gtkspell 2) xchat-gnome didn't work 3) xchat-gnome mangled preferences from normal xchat.
00:32:55 <ehird> ais523: if you do that again, I'll ignore you.
00:33:09 <AnMaster> seems he is afraid of the truth too
00:33:23 <ais523> ehird: it's not as if you're saying anything atm anyway
00:33:41 <ehird> ais523: and? I don't appreciate you breaking my ignore option.
00:34:01 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think that's quite the situation
00:34:10 <AnMaster> at least I can accept when I'm wrong usually. ehird can't
00:34:43 <AnMaster> anyway now lets find a more permanent solution than scp from libgtkspell.so.0.0.0 from gentoo and then LD_PRELOAD it
00:35:13 <ais523> hmm... it seems that people who arrive at websites from Bing are 55% more likely to click through on adverts
00:35:20 <ais523> compared to people who arrived from Google
00:35:24 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea if there is any place like packages.debian.org but for ubuntu?
00:35:35 <ais523> AnMaster: IIRC, it exists but I don't know where it is
00:35:45 <ais523> also, apt-cache search, etc, can be pretty useful
00:35:52 <AnMaster> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtkspell
00:35:58 <oerjan> ok there, now i ignored _both_ ehird and AnMaster.
00:36:01 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I want to find last unstable
00:36:11 <ehird> oerjan: i apologise for not saying anything.
00:36:18 <AnMaster> ais523, huh? did either of us insult oerjan?
00:36:19 <oklopol> actually, what would be much better than ignore would be something that prevents the server from sending your messages to everyone on the chan.
00:36:44 <oklopol> i don't think he felt he was insulted
00:36:52 <ais523> AnMaster: there is definitely a place for find last unstable, but again I don't know where it is
00:37:08 <ais523> oklopol: /part? or have I taken the wrong interpretation of your ambiguous sentence?
00:37:08 <oklopol> he just doesn't like seeing hate.
00:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, how sane on a scale from 0-10 is it to use a package from last unstable on stable
00:37:17 <ehird> ais523: "everyone"
00:37:17 <AnMaster> ais523, as in: package manager breaking or such?
00:37:30 <ehird> i.e., /notfortheeyesof AnMaster
00:37:31 <ais523> AnMaster: it won't break the package manager, most likely it'll complain about unmet dependencies if you try though
00:37:36 <oklopol> ais523: what ehird said; which i guess means "what i said"
00:37:56 <ehird> i'm going to try macirssi now!
00:37:56 <ais523> the package manager won't let you do anything stupid without a --force option
00:38:21 <oklopol> ais523: basically the ability to ignore myself for someone else.
00:38:45 <AnMaster> ais523, now to figure out how.. because deps are rather modest of this...
00:38:47 <ais523> oklopol: unfortunately, most IRC servers ban the obvious method of implementing that
00:38:54 <ais523> which is list-of-people PRIVMSGs
00:38:56 <oklopol> ais523: what's the obvious method?
00:39:21 <oklopol> your messages will not be mutual knowledge to the channel
00:39:25 <ais523> oklopol: in theory, you can write PRIVMSG ais523,AnMaster,ehird :Look at this message!
00:39:30 <oklopol> they will be knowledge separately to each dude on the chan
00:39:37 <ais523> ideally, you'd want PRIVMSG ais523,AnMaster,ehird@#esoteric :Look at this message!
00:39:41 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't work on freenode
00:39:58 <ais523> or maybe, PRIVMSG -oklopol@#esoteric :This is secret from oklopol
00:40:04 <ais523> except - is legal in nicks
00:40:08 <ais523> so you'd need a different syntax
00:40:21 <oklopol> i guess you could prepend something like "this is a message to everyone except X on #Y:".
00:40:27 <oklopol> then it would be mutual knowledge
00:40:40 <oklopol> but i prefer the solution where the server does it
00:40:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what is this extension to IRC supposed to do
00:40:51 <ais523> AnMaster: what oklopol requested
00:41:05 <AnMaster> ais523, exclude someone else from seeing the message?
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00:41:24 <ehird_> heh macirssi shows the topic as \u05ea etc
00:41:26 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, basically to avoid annoying them
00:42:17 <ehird_> okay how do i make this window less transparent
00:42:47 <oklopol> i mean sure i sometimes want not to see other people's messages for a while, when i need a break from the anger induced trance, but a forced ignore would be a nice long-term solution to annoying people.
00:43:09 <oklopol> longer-term, that is, i can't really be mad to anyone for more than a few hours
00:43:34 <ais523> ehird_: I was trying to remember how to do it on Compiz
00:43:41 <ais523> it has a shortcut to control window transparenc
00:43:48 <ais523> wait, no super-mousewheel is zoom
00:43:54 <ehird_> well, that could actually be useful
00:43:57 <ais523> there is a shortcut for transparency, though
00:43:57 <ehird_> to see stuff behind it quickly
00:44:00 <ehird_> though I'd prefer just one shortcut
00:44:03 <ehird_> to make it about half transparent
00:44:09 <ehird_> as opposed to such silly fine-grainedness
00:44:26 <ehird_> i appear to be unable to say unicode chars
00:44:41 <ehird_> well this client is thoroughly shit
00:46:23 <ehird_> The latest build on 1/9/2009 can be downloaded here (6.98 MB). Requires Mac OS X 10.4 or higher. Supplied as a universal binary, allowing it to run on an Intel or PowerPC Mac.
00:46:31 <ehird_> that's basically unheard of
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00:47:39 <ehird_> what i meant to say was
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00:48:14 <ehird_> /quit Don't get MacIrssi, it sucks - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"
00:48:25 <ehird_> jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick
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00:50:47 <ehird_> i don't never made a floughterus
00:50:53 <ehird_> and you know it's true
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00:52:00 <oklopol> you can't have sex on a pogo stick
00:52:11 <ehird> you can fuck a can.
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00:54:05 <anm_ub> ais523, yes it seems to work very nicely. Had to build it locally to get deps right
00:54:44 <anm_ub> dpkg-buildpackage to build the "unstable" gtkspell
00:55:18 <anm_ub> and yes the extra menu in the popup menu is there
00:55:55 <anm_ub> I wgeted the files in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/gtkspell/2.0.15-0ubuntu1
00:56:04 -!- anm_ub has changed nick to anmaster_ub.
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00:56:50 <anmaster_ub> ais523, I wonder why ehird had such large issues with me being right about it being a gtkspell issue...
00:57:17 -!- ehird has joined.
00:57:23 <ehird> don't tear it about
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00:57:52 <ehird> ok this style sucks
00:57:55 <ehird> i'ma try another one
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00:58:21 <ehird> good morning america
00:58:29 <ehird> mood gorning america
00:58:50 <ehird> wonder if i can, like
01:01:34 <AnMaster> * ais523 is annoyed at Ubuntu's typical bug response <ais523> it's considerably worse than Debian's <-- ?
01:02:47 <ais523> very considerably worse
01:02:50 <ais523> Debian's is pretty good IME
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01:03:30 <AnMaster> btw this is a rather tight fit in the menu bar thing at the top
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01:04:17 <ehird> turns out I'm an antelope. would you believe?
01:04:27 <AnMaster> 2x xchat icon (this is X forward, haven't yet fixed listening ip for bouncer), battery, network manager, bluetooth, CPU temp, battery temp, fan speed, core 1 temp, core 2 temp, sound, date
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01:04:46 <ehird> fairly sure I've outlawed slavery at least once in my lifetime
01:05:27 <AnMaster> I think I shall have to ignore ehird too soon
01:05:33 <AnMaster> clearly he is trying to be annoying
01:06:07 <ehird> well guys! it's been just swell
01:06:11 <ehird> but i gotta fly you know?
01:06:16 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, apart from the wlan... this thinkpad works very well
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01:06:39 <AnMaster> ais523, the wlan has some bug that makes it take ages to connect to networks with WPA2-PSK
01:08:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well no one knows... either wpa_supplicant or the kernel module iwlagn
01:09:33 <AnMaster> the result is that it takes a random amount of time before things connect
01:09:41 <AnMaster> before it keeps reporting this in dmesg:
01:09:47 <AnMaster> [17435.744398] wlan0: disassociating by local choice (reason=3)
01:10:20 <AnMaster> last time it took 10 seconds. the time before that it took about 5 minutes
01:10:26 <AnMaster> ais523, this is a very annoying bug
01:10:28 <ais523> I think that bug affects me too
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01:10:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you have an intel chipset?
01:10:51 <AnMaster> if it is a different driver hm
01:11:02 <AnMaster> then maybe the bug is in wpa_supplicant
01:11:10 <ais523> can't remember the driver offhand
01:11:15 <AnMaster> ais523, also when did the issue start
01:11:25 <ais523> AnMaster: it's been there forever
01:11:47 <AnMaster> ais523, sometimes it doesn't connect at all
01:12:02 <AnMaster> anyway do you know any good workaround?
01:12:28 <AnMaster> ais523, so how do you usually solve it...?
01:12:46 <AnMaster> also I sure hope the university I'm going to won't use WPA2
01:14:20 <AnMaster> ais523, looks like WLAN coverage at the uni is rather sparse: https://shib1.oru.se/account/images/Zonkarta.jpg
01:14:20 <ais523> bear in mind that my trackpad doesn't work, the sound has issues sometimes, some of the buttons on the front don't work, and the computer needs a reboot to turn the screen on if it's closed
01:14:36 <AnMaster> I guess I will have to reupload the image instead
01:15:12 <AnMaster> the link to the PDF with details about wlan gives 404
01:15:44 <AnMaster> ais523, my touchpad/trackpoint works
01:15:57 <AnMaster> tapping the trackpoint is supposed to click: doesn't work
01:16:49 <AnMaster> Fn-F8 is supposed to turn off the touchpad (useful when you are writing to prevent accidental mouse movements), after some fiddling with hal it does. But it *also* turns off the buttons for the trackpoint
01:16:59 <AnMaster> the thinkpad has two sets of buttons
01:17:16 <AnMaster> the above ones are for the track point in the middle of the keyboard
01:17:35 <AnMaster> ais523, the wlan bug, does it only affect WPA2 networks?
01:17:46 <AnMaster> or WPA too? And what about WEP or unencrypted
01:17:54 <ais523> it doesn't affect original WPA, haven't tried anywhere else
01:17:58 <ais523> and for all I know, it's a different bug
01:18:45 <AnMaster> ais523, so WPA2 but not WPA? (asking for confirmation because your response seemed to contain a typo or be rather strangely worded)
01:19:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I think so, but if it's a different bug this info won't help
01:19:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well non-WPA2 seems to work for me
01:19:22 <AnMaster> but that is too insecure for my home network
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01:21:51 <AnMaster> ais523, your dmesg contains that error I mentioned?
01:21:57 <AnMaster> if so very probably the same bug
01:22:00 <ais523> that's not an error, it's full of stuff like that
01:22:06 <ais523> I can't remember the exact wording
01:22:13 <AnMaster> [17435.744398] wlan0: disassociating by local choice (reason=3)
01:22:17 <ais523> but I think that's the message, I'm not sure though
01:22:54 <AnMaster> ais523, does it only happen after suspend? Or also on cold boot?
01:23:00 <ais523> it happens all the time
01:23:04 <ais523> also, after random disconnectoin
01:23:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have random disconnections
01:23:18 <ais523> however, the same issue also seems to happen to people with Windows
01:23:22 <AnMaster> but then I have good signal here
01:23:22 <ais523> so I assumed it was the router's fault
01:23:34 <AnMaster> ais523, no issues on windows here
01:23:50 <ais523> my guess is different bug with the same symptoms
01:25:34 * Sgeo wants to use HP Polaris
01:26:05 <Sgeo> I think I just discovered a flaw in HP Polaris and similar stuff: What happens when a program wants to store a cache or config files?
01:26:25 <Sgeo> Is Polaris set up to handle that?
01:27:26 <AnMaster> hm someone suggests 2.6.28-9 kernel should fix it
01:28:32 <ais523> check the diff between the kernels for anything that might be causing the issue
01:30:09 <AnMaster> ubuntu bug reports seem confused indeed
01:30:18 <AnMaster> and very seldom does a developer respond
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01:30:48 <AnMaster> ais523, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/348275 <-- fun reading
01:31:16 <AnMaster> I think there are several different bugs in that report
01:33:43 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=1385,1360,1359 T-Rex comics
01:36:34 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=1438,1204 Hahahah, OK, I'm having too much fun with this silly script :P
01:39:42 <pikhq> ... A script that glues parts of Dinosaur Comics together.
01:39:45 <pikhq> Okay, that's nice.
01:40:29 <GregorR> It's my response to the posted random-second-panel script :P
01:41:30 <GregorR> I personally like ?panels=0,1 ... it's T-Rex having a hard time fighting off his ADD.
01:41:51 <GregorR> What, the random-second-panel one? It's linked on qwantz.com
01:43:41 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=850,876 T-Rex has often-weird trains of thought :P
01:45:02 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=220,180 I don't think that's true, T-Rex (OK, I promise this is the last one I post :P
01:46:37 <oerjan> well, it _could_ have been true
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02:02:01 <pikhq> AT&T has the mind of a dog and balls the size of the moon.
02:02:05 <pikhq> They're censoring 4chan.
02:04:19 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5,6&comics=911,15,15,15 // ha, a friend constructed this one
02:14:59 <mycroftiv> pikhq: my opinion is that this is actually 'line in the sand' time
02:15:40 <mycroftiv> either we agree 'ok, its fine if all communications get prior corporate approval' - or we cave in.
02:27:35 <Sgeo> Aren't both options the same?
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02:47:01 <mycroftiv> Sgeo: oh yeah, guess i didnt do a very good job on that dichotomy, huh
03:43:11 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=475,1410,170
03:43:25 <GregorR> A friend of mine is using this to make "T-Rex is Lonely Comics" now :P
04:13:51 <oklopol> as in, has those 3 squares?
04:14:14 <oklopol> not in theme of jokes clearly, so i'll assume yes
04:18:12 <pikhq> Except God and Shakespeare.
04:18:13 <oklopol> but he seems to have some sorta employees
04:19:28 <oklopol> animals are a weird concept
04:19:56 <pikhq> They're multicellular protists without a cell wall.
04:20:00 <pikhq> What's so hard about that?
04:23:03 <oklopol> i'm not saying they are hard to implement, i'm just saying they weird me out so to speak.
04:23:20 <oklopol> i mean currently. suddenly they started feeling so real.
04:23:44 <oklopol> things sometimes start feeling very real, it's a great opportunity to find new perspectives to life
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04:37:10 * Warrigal has a strange Omegle conversation.
04:37:47 <Warrigal> I said, "Hi. I've decided I'd like to make friends with a completely random person. Are you up for it?" E said "yes". I said, "Are you on Facebook? You could send me a friend request". E disconnected.
04:38:02 <bsmntbombdood_> http://blogs.1077theend.com/files/2009/03/amanda-palmer.jpg
04:38:24 <oklopol> Warrigal: how is that strange
04:38:52 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood_: is that your mother?
04:39:43 <Warrigal> E indicated that e would cooperate and then failed to answer a question.
04:41:09 <oklopol> he thought you meant befriending during that conversation, probably.
04:41:26 <oklopol> didn't realize you actually meant what you said, because it isn't something you'd expect to see
04:42:18 <Warrigal> Why would anyone ever use Omegle for an ordinary purpose? I use it for explicitly random solitications; therefore, everyone does.
04:42:43 <oklopol> the only other person i know who uses it keeps asking people "red or blue?" and similar questions.
04:46:13 <oklopol> apparently after a few thousand questions most conversations consist of "oh fuck you again"
05:46:23 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=1283,1297 Oh T-Rex, your logic is always so flawed.
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06:27:09 <oklopol> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=1283,1297 <<< this is hilarious :D
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09:39:43 <augur> speak english next time
09:39:48 -!- augur has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
09:42:32 <oklopol> am i still ignoring someone
10:01:14 <augur> the topic was hebrew
10:01:18 <augur> and a bitch to change
10:01:22 <augur> so i removed it entirely
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11:31:08 <AnMaster> you know what irritates me? That xchat lacks readline editing commands. Stuff like Ctrl-a to go to start of line
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12:02:19 <ehird> You're proterozoic.
12:03:00 <oerjan> meaning essentially i talk out of my ass
12:03:33 <oerjan> oh wait, that would be proteostomic
12:03:39 <ehird> Loto tprtpstringkgay.
12:04:11 <oerjan> if i could only spell that right.
12:04:55 <oerjan> also, get off my protolawn.
12:05:20 <ehird> Get a non-proterozoic lawn!
12:05:31 <ehird> So that I may step on it in bigger leaps and bounds! Like Neil Armstrong!
12:05:36 <ehird> YOU LIVE ON THE MOON, OERJAN!
12:06:52 <ehird> Protosthutyourassomic.
12:07:33 <oerjan> i make no guess what opening you are currently talking out of.
12:08:05 <ehird> MY BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIAHAIHAIHAIAHAIIN
12:09:56 <oerjan> ah. sorry about that mad cow disease, then.
12:10:54 <ehird> 43 and a half is just impossible
12:11:37 <oerjan> yes, it is a thinly-concealed mathematics secret. we try not to scare ordinary people with it, though.
12:12:14 <ehird> oerjan: weren't you the one who said that the laws of mathematics might start to break down at around 10^40 or sth?
12:12:17 <ehird> i assume that was just a joke
12:13:17 <ehird> oerjan: then what the flying fuck did you mean?
12:14:06 <oerjan> mathematics could be inconsistent, but it could be that the proof is very long and hard to stumble on
12:14:39 <ehird> oerjan: I don't see any clauses in peano arithmetic going,
12:14:41 <oerjan> ok _that_ was just out of thin air
12:14:52 <ehird> "if(x>10^40, 42, else x+y)"
12:15:31 <oerjan> ehird: that doesn't matter. you don't see any clauses saying 43 is prime, either.
12:15:50 <ehird> you're sounding vaguely crackpottish, oerjan
12:15:53 <oerjan> the proof would probably have to build up some complicated machinery, or something
12:16:19 <oerjan> i would be crackpot if i claimed i knew of such a thing. i am merely pointing out the possibility.
12:17:20 <ehird> oerjan: (a) what's up with your English lately?, (b) i think if mathematics "breaks down" past a certain point, our conceptions are wrong, not mathematics
12:17:48 <ehird> also, PA is terribly simple… if it's inconsistent, it's probably impossible to formalise arithmetic in a way that matches our expectations
12:18:11 <oerjan> i think maybe the 10^40 was a kind of "infinity could be inconsistent, but it could computational capability close to the entire universe to show"
12:18:56 <oerjan> and maybe the universe would be finite _because_ of this inconsistency, just in order to be able to logically exist...
12:19:39 <ehird> well sure, I'm not sure I like the idea of infinity too much
12:19:49 <ehird> (limits don't count, that's just an unbounded limit, not an actual infinity being involved)
12:20:49 <ehird> oerjan: but that's not the same as "a certain number might be speshul and fuck everything up" :P
12:21:14 <oerjan> well i never meant that anyway, at least directly
12:22:14 <ehird> sure is what you said
12:22:37 <oerjan> although if there were a short proof, it could very well involve a special number. but then it could involve anything.
12:23:30 <oerjan> it could even be that a particular number works, but not larger ones. likely, if a special property of it is needed.
12:24:05 <ehird> oerjan: i don't exactly see this as being likely at all
12:24:29 <oerjan> likely is used here in a relative sense
12:25:05 * oerjan runs scrambling to the browser
12:26:30 <ehird> oerjan: well it's more likely than god existing in my mind but that's not exactly a stunning upper bound
12:26:57 <ehird> hmm Colloquy isn't ignoring lines mentioning AnMaster, wonder if I could tell it to
12:27:08 <ehird> kind of annoying seeing one side of conversations
12:27:22 <AnMaster> you could also unignore me you know...
12:27:45 * oerjan was expecting a pun related to hyperspace there, but no.
12:29:01 -!- jix has joined.
12:41:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:46:40 * oerjan also liked today's girl genius, although that requires some context
12:51:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Gibber gibber").
12:57:57 <AnMaster> seems like awk on ubuntu isn't gawk
13:03:16 -!- jix has joined.
13:09:56 <fizzie> This Ubuntu 8.10 workstation I have at work has both gawk and mawk installed, and plain "awk" defaults on gawk with the alternatives system (priority 10 for gawk vs. 5 for mawk).
13:10:05 <fizzie> But it could be that the default install doesn't include gawk.
13:10:16 <ehird> Oh, wait, AnMaster.
13:10:43 <fizzie> I should make a habit of attributing my lines.
13:20:40 * ehird yells at a prescriptivist
13:23:17 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:29:25 -!- GregorR has set topic: ערוץ לדיון סוגיות בנושא יהודי דתי, ו אזוטרי שפות תכנות http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
13:32:15 -!- ehird has set topic: איל ההון את ערוץ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
13:37:08 <GregorR> "Tycoon the channel" is what I get from that :P
13:38:22 <ehird> Mogul the channel!
13:57:32 -!- fizzie has set topic: ערוץ, דת, יהודים, ו בגשם כדי לדון בבעיה עם שפת התכנות http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
13:58:00 <fizzie> "Channel, religion, Jews, and the rain to discuss the problem with the programming language", according to translate.google.com.
14:00:30 <ehird> I just borked google translate
14:00:33 <ehird> they made me DDoS themselves
14:00:53 <ehird> http://imgur.com/vIUZH.png
14:01:28 <ehird> *them, not themselves, I think
14:01:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't want to be highlighted every line unless there is a good reason though
14:02:17 <AnMaster> (so not to please ehird, but ok if there are two convos at once or such, or if it is the first line in a discussion)
14:02:57 <AnMaster> is there some sort of right-to-left thingy in the topic?
14:03:36 <AnMaster> at least xchat displays the text with the non-ASCII stuff last in the topic line of the channel, but in the reverse order when I do /topic
14:06:20 <ehird> (GregorR: Perhaps you were talking to AnMaster :P)
14:07:08 <ehird> Gotta learn to type dots.
14:45:06 -!- ehird has set topic: INFINITE GUNS AVAILABLE NOW → http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:52:15 -!- GregorR has set topic: ערוץ לדיון סוגיות בנושא יהודי דתי, ו אזוטרי שפות תכנות http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:52:34 -!- ehird has set topic: THE MAN IS TRYING TO OPRESS THIS → http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:52:42 <ehird> (THE MAN IS GREGORR)
14:54:17 -!- GregorR has set topic: הדיכוי של ערוץ! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:56:38 -!- ehird has set topic: 沒關係 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:57:05 <ehird> ("C'est ne pas une sujet [topic]", if Google Translate is right.)
14:57:10 <ehird> (Simplified Chinese. Very short.)
14:57:18 <ehird> (Clearly Magritte was Chinese.)
14:59:50 -!- ehird has set topic: 這不是一個問題 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:59:53 <ehird> Got it wrong the first time.
15:00:04 <ehird> "This is not an issue" XD
15:06:48 -!- GregorR has set topic: ערוץ זה הוא קרב בין היהודים לבין 中文 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:06:55 -!- ehird has set topic: 這不是一個問題 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:07:13 <GregorR> But mine was hilarifunny :P
15:08:49 <ehird> GregorR: What does it actually say?
15:09:25 <GregorR> This channel is a war between Jews and Chinese
15:09:30 <GregorR> (With "Chinese" in Chinese)
15:11:06 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D אױ װײ.
15:11:17 -!- ehird has set topic: אױ װײ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:13:50 -!- GregorR has set topic: てぃす いす ぶろけん エんぐりしゅ! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:15:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:15:45 <ehird> Oy vey, GregorR obliterated my oy vey.
15:16:23 <GregorR> But I replaced it with thisu isu burokenu Engulishu!
15:16:25 <ehird> GregorR: "I d GURISHU ticket to ISU bath chair!"?
15:22:26 <ehird> [[Linux has a NAZI theme--darwin evolution konquer. People who obsess on evolution are sick in the head. They all want to kill-off dumb people.
15:22:26 <ehird> LoseThos has a bible theme. It has a special kernel task called "Adam", father of all tasks. I'm an evolutionist, but it's not my religion.
15:22:26 <ehird> Consider this turf wars. Stick to your atheist operating systems, fair enough?]]
15:24:32 <ehird> GregorR: From reddit, by the mentally insane creator of the 64-bit OS that implements unprotected memory on top of paging and only works at 640x480x16colours because he didn't want to do any buffering: http://losethos.com/
15:24:53 <ehird> More WTF: http://www.reddit.com/user/losethos/
15:25:04 <ehird> Even more WTF: http://www.losethos.com/FBI.html
15:25:09 <GregorR> He's clearly insane if he says he's an evolutionist, but also associates it with naziism?
15:25:19 <pikhq> 64-bit, unprotected memory. With 640x480, 4-bit color. Must. Kill.
15:25:30 <ehird> GregorR: He doesn't appear to understand what evolution is, or that it's a scientific theory and not a belief.
15:25:34 <ehird> Just click that FBI.html page.
15:25:40 <ehird> He has some sort of fucked up algorithm for generating nonsense.
15:25:44 <ehird> And this is apparently god talking to him.
15:25:53 <pikhq> MEMORY PROTECTION IS NOT HARD.
15:25:58 <ehird> pikhq: He explicitly dislikes it.
15:26:13 <ehird> GregorR: The "Moses Comics" link is extra-fun; a bunch of comics where God is a fucking asshole! Comes with ;-) smilies!
15:26:59 <ehird> He's better than the Time Cube guy because he isn't an internet-recluse.
15:27:08 <ehird> You can watch him on reddit!
15:27:21 <pikhq> ... And he wrote this over the course of 6 *years*.
15:27:29 <ehird> * I misspoke -- the FPS is 500 LOC not 500,000 LOC.]]
15:27:40 <ehird> The vocal cords are, like, right next to each other.
15:28:06 <GregorR> I know that when I cough, it sounds like I'm saying "thousand"
15:28:31 <ehird> Oh, oh, and you can get a dictionary and a utility to decompress the LoseThos archive files on Windows or Linux.
15:28:34 <ehird> It's free, for now, if you complete a survey:
15:28:34 <ehird> 1) Describe your system hardware. Tell what works and what doesn't.
15:28:34 <ehird> 2) Did you install it on your hard drive? Any difficulties?
15:28:45 <ehird> "Difficulties: You're fucking insane and this OS is terrible"
15:28:57 <pikhq> How in the world does it take you 6 years to write something that poor?
15:29:15 <pikhq> Even the Hurd does more in 6 years.
15:29:16 <ehird> pikhq: Obviously God told him to take that long.
15:29:19 <pikhq> And that's the ultimate in vaporware.
15:29:40 <pikhq> He has a 12 fps flight sim.
15:29:46 <pikhq> Dealing with his crap graphics.
15:29:49 <ehird> pikhq: The OS does no buffering.
15:29:54 <ehird> It redraws the entire screen every frame.
15:30:01 <ehird> He knew he could do buffering, but decided to keep the low res instead.
15:30:08 <ehird> DESPITE REQUIRING A 64-BIT COMPUTER AND HAVING 12GB OF RAM.
15:30:29 <pikhq> THAT TAKES MORE WORK THAN BUFFERING.
15:30:40 <ehird> Yep, no dirty rectangles at all
15:30:54 <ehird> pikhq: Also, Hurd seems quite active, actually; they migrated to git on -06-30 and they made a stable release on 2007-12-30
15:31:03 <ehird> I wonder if X11 compiles on it?
15:31:08 <pikhq> Guess how you write to the graphics card with VESA? A feking FRAMEBUFFER.
15:32:01 <pikhq> ehird: Checking packages.debian.org.
15:32:15 <ehird> pikhq: Long mode requires a memory mapping thing, so he actually had to do work to make it map directly to physical memory.
15:32:29 <pikhq> ehird: Not hard, though.
15:32:34 <ehird> http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=x11%20hurd&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
15:32:37 <ehird> Second screenshot is KD eon Hurd
15:32:39 <ehird> but seems to be dead
15:32:41 <pikhq> Single line of code, in fact.
15:32:53 <ehird> pikhq: Don't care :P
15:32:57 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/20070212142238/http://people.debian.org/~mbanck/media/hurd-kde.png
15:33:01 * ehird waits for it to load.
15:33:20 <GregorR> Wow, that's sweeterrible 8-D
15:33:22 <ehird> KDE running on GNU Hurd.
15:33:45 <ehird> GregorR: Of course, most of the work is glibc and stuff.
15:33:57 <ehird> If you use all the other GNU crap, it doesn't take that much to get KDE running, I'd imagine.
15:34:52 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.losethos.com/contact.html
15:34:57 <ehird> LoseThos' original codebase is from 1993.
15:35:03 <ehird> And was unchanged until 2003.
15:35:54 * ehird installs — as much as it pains him to — Windows Media Player on OS X.
15:35:58 <ehird> (For the crazy LoseThos videos!)
15:36:12 <pikhq> The userspace stuff is not hard to get working. After all, Hurd is just a kernel.
15:36:13 <pikhq> The glibc's a bit hard, though, because it's basically emulating UNIX on a not-all-that-UNIX API.
15:36:43 <ehird> "There are a lot of homo's on this site. Butt hole surfers. Nasty!!"
15:36:45 <ehird> Woot, he's a bigot.
15:37:02 <pikhq> LOSETHOS DOES COÖPERATIVE MULTITASKING.
15:37:37 -!- jix has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:37:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:37:37 -!- pikhq has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:37:37 <ehird> I am in favour of this "murder" idea.
15:37:56 <ehird> Discover two ways to enjoy your audio and video on your Mac. Flip4Mac provides Windows Media video and audio playback in the QuickTime Player for Mac OS X. Windows Media Player for Mac is also available as a free download from Microsoft, but future updates will be discontinued.
15:38:00 <ehird> Oh, that sounds better.
15:39:39 <ehird> The page “index” has content of MIME type “application/x-mplayer2”, but you don’t have a plug-in for this MIME type. This page may have the plug-in for you to download and install:
15:39:44 <ehird> Guess I need to install it anyway, huh.
15:40:11 <ehird> Oh, it works if I restart Safari.
15:40:37 <ehird> Just listen to his voice.
15:41:20 <ehird> It blinks around so much...
15:42:48 <ehird> "You want you too you wait for unsigned". (U1 U2 U8 :P)
15:43:11 -!- jix has joined.
15:43:11 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
15:43:11 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:43:24 <ehird> pikhq: You have to listen to the LoseThos video.
15:43:26 <ehird> You can taste the insanity.
15:45:18 <ehird> I think I'll install the Hurd.
15:45:32 <ehird> To http://www.superunprivileged.org/!
15:45:54 <ehird> —taking a detour to Why Cooperation With RMS Is Impossible, uh, I mean the Free Software Song—
15:46:28 <ehird> The Hurd LiveCD uses Debian.
15:46:31 <ehird> Why does it use Debian?
15:46:37 <ehird> I want raw Hurd, man!
15:46:42 <ehird> Debian is too easy.
15:47:12 <ehird> pikhq: how did your POSIX kernel go, btw?
15:47:13 <GregorR> It's all Debian maaaaaaaaaan
15:47:28 <ehird> GregorR: That's just too lame and easy.
15:47:33 <ehird> Fuck that, I'm going to write my own insane POSIX kernel.
15:47:48 <ehird> Let's see… a function is a process. Calling a function sends a message to it.
15:47:51 <ehird> printfd, fuck yeah.
15:48:11 <ehird> printf("Hello, %s!\n", "world"); /* this actually sends the arguments to the printf process */
15:49:24 <ehird> pikhq: Answer my question >_>
15:49:35 <pikhq> ehird: I just got back from a netsplit!
15:49:44 <ehird> It's been minutes, man.
15:49:49 <ehird> You've been back minutes. :P
15:49:58 <pikhq> No, I first saw your question a second ago.
15:50:06 <pikhq> 09:48 -!- Netsplit over, joins: GregorR, EgoBot, Warrigal, FireFly, sebbu, ehird, Robdgreat, augur, MigoMipo, MizardX (+28 more)
15:50:19 <pikhq> And all your messages hit in a giant stream.
15:50:25 <ehird> You rejoined 15:43 here
15:50:32 <ehird> It's now 15:50 for me.
15:51:05 <sebbu> [16:37:37] <-- pikhq has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
15:51:09 <sebbu> [16:43:07] --> pikhq (n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net) has joined #esoteric
15:51:23 <ehird> pikhq: …a POSIX kernel that compiles with clang/LLVM. >:)
15:51:26 <pikhq> 09:48, return from netsplit.
15:51:36 <pikhq> ehird: Awesomeness.
15:51:39 <ehird> That is, the kernel is compiled with clang/LLVM.
15:51:59 <ehird> I shall call it… POSEVEN.
15:52:19 <ehird> pikhq: Anyway, did your kernel get anywhere?
15:52:44 <ehird> I wonder what VM I should test this OS in.
15:53:00 <pikhq> Yeah; Bochs has a nice debugger.
15:53:00 <ehird> Decisions, ecisions.
15:53:09 <ehird> pikhq: But I hate debuggers. :(
15:53:18 <pikhq> ehird: You'll need one.
15:53:32 <ehird> Hey, I got an OS to print "Hello, world!" without a debugger!
15:54:31 <ehird> Perhaps keeping a clang/LLVM in tree would be useful.
15:54:40 <ehird> It doesn't seem to be well-suited to installing what with the whole svn thing.
15:54:47 <pikhq> My interrupt handlers never got finished.
15:54:57 <ehird> I'll interrupt your handlers, if you know what I mean?
15:55:00 <ehird> That's what she said.
15:55:03 <ehird> Just like your mom.
15:55:06 <ehird> Just like YOUR FACE!
15:55:08 <ehird> That's what she said.
15:55:11 <pikhq> And from there, I'd need to get paging and a kmalloc going.
15:55:41 <ehird> I wonder if there are any OSes that switch to long mode before leaving assembly (as in, a few lines in).
15:55:47 <ehird> If not, let poseven be the first!
15:56:04 <ehird> Maybe I should target Itanium. :P
15:57:20 <ehird> pikhq: Oh snap, if I can get clang/LLVM working for this, I can write parts of the kernel in Objective-C.
15:57:34 <ehird> I'm not sure why I'd *want* to, what with the runtime dependency and large overhead, but… :P
15:57:57 <ehird> (The fastest Objective-C method call is, iirc, four times slower than a C++ virtual method call.)
15:58:12 <pikhq> ehird: 'Twould be awesome to make an all-Objective-C OS, though.
15:58:34 <pikhq> Pointless, but awesome.
15:59:11 <ehird> I wonder if clang/LLVM support any calling conventions that let you detect the end of a variable argument list.
15:59:20 <ehird> e.g. pushing the length first.
15:59:37 <ehird> It's quite silly that C doesn't let you do that. Bah at asm compatibility.
15:59:56 -!- Xiin has changed nick to Xiin_.
16:00:49 <ehird> Hmm, processes containing all the standard functions might be useful, actually.
16:01:26 <ehird> For instance, if printf does `sendmsg(current_output_process(), "printf", ...);`
16:01:37 <ehird> s/$/ then you can implement a terminal easily./
16:01:49 <ehird> By just changing the current output process, and implementing printf and the like.
16:02:02 <ehird> I guess most OSs work similarly anyway, but this is a bit more general.
16:02:37 <ehird> Of course, it'd actually be write that does that, and not printf, but you get the idea.
16:03:34 <ehird> And it also lets you do Plan 9-style things, where you can printf in a graphical application and it goes to your graphical window, as well as being able to draw on it.
16:05:39 <ehird> What happens if you install Debian's Linux kernel on a Debian/kHURD installation, I wonder?
16:05:49 <ehird> Can you use it via two kernels? :-)
16:07:35 <ehird> Hey, with the kernel as a process, hotswapping it is really easy.
16:08:31 <ehird> Just tell the kernel to do it, and it starts up the hotswapper as a child process, giving it full privileges. It passes a pointer to its state and memory locations to the hotswapper function, which then wantonly writes all over it, removes its process entry, hacks the stack so that when it returns it's to the relevant function in the new kernel, then returns.
16:08:46 <ehird> (Multitasking has to be disabled for the duration, of course.)
16:10:44 <oklopol> i'll read what i answered now
16:12:07 <ehird> oklopol: plz do :<
16:12:12 <ehird> it's just three lines
16:14:43 <oklopol> your questions is whether hotswapping can be done like that or whether you can use two kernels?
16:14:52 <oklopol> well use X via two kernels
16:15:05 <ehird> oklopol: the former
16:15:11 <ehird> if you have the kernel as Just Another Process
16:15:16 <ehird> (that happens to have all the other processes as children)
16:16:00 <ehird> pikhq: Consider "killall -9 poseven". Your mind is now blown.
16:16:21 <ehird> <poseven> Stop right there, poseven! I'm halting your execution and then I'll
16:16:55 <oklopol> ehird: i don't know where the kernel usually is
16:17:13 <ehird> oklopol: it usually doesn't really exist from the userspace point of view
16:17:27 <ehird> your first process is whatever the main process is e.g. init or whatever
16:17:29 <ehird> which starts all the others
16:19:37 <oklopol> but, err, i have not made an os, so it's mostly an unjustified opinion that i think making them is trivial. maybe it's really hard to have the kernel as a process, as it's the one who's in charge of all processes.
16:19:57 <oklopol> i don't see why it would be
16:20:10 <ehird> i'm just noting that I'm pretty sure you can do hotswapping the kernel (e.g. upgrading, patching and the like) at runtime without breaking shit quite easily if it's a process
16:20:13 <pikhq> Hurd has the scheduler as just another process.
16:20:29 <ehird> pikhq: but, presumably, the scheduler doesn't schedule
16:20:42 <ehird> the scheduler will be a process in the same way that the kernel pretends to be a regular process
16:20:50 <ehird> doesn't get scheduled
16:20:52 <ehird> not doesn't schedule
16:21:07 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure it schedules itself
16:21:33 <pikhq> The scheduler is just another process. That "processes" are just things with seperate memory and the ability to pass messages is irrelevant. :P
16:21:42 <ehird> oklopol: because it can't schedule if it's letting another process run instead of itself
16:21:50 <ehird> and that process won't have a scheduler to butt it off after a while
16:23:05 <ehird> Anyway, the first person who can tell me what in hell "killall -9 poseven" (where poseven is the kernel process) would do gets a useless internet point. :P
16:23:29 <oklopol> right it can't be the one who does all the actual memory switching shit; i just keep thinking of the algorithmic aspects of scheduling for some reason :P
16:24:41 <ehird> pikhq: Well, the kernel will just replace itself with something that attempts to get rid of itself and keep scheduling, so I think it'd actually be a hardware error.
16:24:54 <ehird> Because it'd try and call kernel functions, which have been replaced by other memory.
16:25:13 <ehird> Basically the same as casting a random memory location to a function pointer then calling it.
16:25:21 <ehird> Maybe, maybe it'll do something weird. Most probably, it'll just reboot.
16:25:32 <oklopol> there should be an OS course in mathematics where an OS is built over a turing machine, i might actually find the interest to get a firm grip over this stuff :P
16:25:40 <ehird> (Well, it might first call the handler, which is part of the now random memory.)
16:25:41 -!- nooga has joined.
16:25:49 <ehird> (Perhaps nesting this a few times, but eventually it'll give up and reboot.)
16:26:07 <ehird> oklopol: kinda impossible to do a regular OS on a TM
16:26:13 <ehird> you can't access the ip and other internal stuff
16:26:50 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:26:50 <pikhq> A theoretical model of a machine, not an actual one with ugly cruft.
16:26:52 <ehird> realisticised von neumann, I guess
16:27:08 <ehird> Anyway, -ffreestanding is the name of the game for clang/LLVM freestandingness.
16:27:09 -!- nooga has joined.
16:27:16 <ehird> You need memcpy and a few other things, apparently, but that's… not a great hardship.
16:28:14 <oklopol> the way i see it, accessing ip, interrupts and all that, are stuff that's main purpose is to let you run stuff without an interpretation layer, but leave a weak sort of higher level for controlling the running
16:28:27 <oklopol> with a tm you'd have to have the interpretation layer explicit
16:28:31 <nooga> my ruby interp is fucked up
16:28:33 <ehird> oklopol: *stuff whose
16:28:36 <ehird> oklopol: Ha! You errored.
16:28:59 <ehird> Also, doing such an emulation layer wouldn't really help you learn much about the actual interesting lower-level parts of OS design.
16:29:27 <oklopol> ehird: reason is i was trying to find something less oklo than "stuff" to use there, but though meh who gives a fimmel.
16:29:40 <oklopol> so the next word got very little focus
16:29:53 <ehird> oklopol: "things" is quite less oklo
16:30:49 <oklopol> ehird: well, the way i see it, what the OS is is basically a way to make the interpretation layer work sensibly without actually having one.
16:30:57 <oklopol> so yes, i agree completely, and that was pretty much my point
16:31:06 <oklopol> something of a simplification, but, well, i'm a mathematicion.
16:31:15 <ehird> oklofailing a lot today eh
16:32:15 <oklopol> so i decided to clean the apartment today. seems not to have happened yet.
16:32:54 <ehird> (ip because i'm sshing in to my uk comp)
16:32:56 <oklopol> i just got like 2000e from mister insurance company.
16:33:11 <ehird> give me it or something.
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16:33:30 <ehird> *give it to me, rather
16:33:38 <oklopol> ehird: if you clean this shithole, then yes; that was the whole point :P
16:33:59 <oklopol> meh shouldn't lie, i would probably not give you all of it.
16:34:02 <ehird> oklopol: either you really hate money or that place is a gigantic dump :D
16:34:17 <ehird> anyway I'm not actually in turku.
16:34:18 <oklopol> also i should probably call my parents and ask for them to actually give the money to me
16:34:31 <oklopol> i'm just assuming they will :P
16:35:13 <ehird> oklopol: just stop talking to them and become an unspoiled brat!
16:37:13 <oklopol> then how would i ever get to places over 1km away from my house
16:37:55 <ehird> or public transport
16:38:11 <ehird> you'd have to get wings first though.
16:38:15 <oklopol> but my shoes don't really have soles
16:38:32 <ehird> buy new shoes, with soles
16:38:35 <ehird> or see the other options
16:38:43 <oklopol> my feet basically sweat acid, and i never buy new clothes
16:38:49 <ehird> then see the ohter options
16:40:09 <oklopol> i used to have awesome bus skills, i'd go in, sit down, instantly fall asleep and wake up at the correct stop
16:40:38 <oklopol> sometimes i'd be late for school because i'd slept for 5 stops too long
16:41:27 <oklopol> this was during my first year of high school when i occasionally went months with like 2-3 hours of sleep a night
16:42:07 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/poseven/llvm] % CC="gcc-4.2 -m64" ENABLE_OPTIMIZED=1 ./configure
16:42:29 <oklopol> once i started snoring during a mass lecture
16:43:28 <ehird> pikhq: hmm if you compile your kernel as 64-bit code you have to enter long mode before jumping to it from asm right?
16:43:32 <ehird> i wonder if that stops you setting up interrupts or sth
16:44:32 <oklopol> ...oh wait did you start working on your os again? :D
16:44:52 <pikhq> ehird, you can set up interrupts from 64-bit code.
16:44:57 <pikhq> You just need some asm stubs.
16:45:12 <ehird> i've just started!
16:45:17 <ehird> not the main thingy
16:45:51 <oklopol> well i don't mean continuing an existing thing, just starting to play with os stuff again.
16:45:54 <ehird> hmm ~/Code/poseven/llvm as build and ~/Code/poseven/llvm-src as svn tree is so ugly.
16:46:04 <ehird> in fact it's almost enough to make me use the auto* build system
16:46:50 -!- puzzlet has joined.
16:48:57 <ehird> why does llvm's build process suck
16:49:35 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:49:37 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:54:51 <ehird> i hate bikeshedding
16:54:53 <ehird> but i can't help it
16:55:51 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=152,899 T-Rex never had the "birds and bees" talk
16:56:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: You need to add an interface thingy to that so we can point in click instead of bored and click.
16:56:38 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/weird/dinosaurComicMunger.xhtml
16:56:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: That lacks a total link :P
16:58:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?comics=1004,974&panels=0,1
16:58:20 <ehird> T-Rex has an existential crisis.
16:58:50 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:59:07 <GregorR-L> Well, he did just realize he's an anachronism ( http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=37,961,62 )
16:59:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?comics=1222,1004&panels=0,3
17:00:30 <GregorR-L> Bleh, now I have to fix it and add full-URL support to the munger >_<
17:00:54 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:01:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?comics=64,535&panels=0,4
17:01:17 <ehird> You should make it piece them together so they're side-by-side. :|
17:01:44 <GregorR-L> I considered doing that .... it's still on my "maybe" list
17:02:02 <GregorR-L> Hahahah, dinosaurs wouldn't happen to be ... URBAN LEGENDS?
17:02:27 <ehird> WTF, it gave me 7 comics
17:02:30 <ehird> But there's only 6 panels
17:02:32 <oklopol> is the picture splicing done in php
17:03:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: ?comics=1139,42,89,1000,613,552,734; but 734 doesn't appear
17:03:15 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?comics=89,552&panels=2,5
17:03:21 <ehird> T-Rex is a secret pedophile!
17:03:46 <GregorR-L> ehird: The 7th "panel" is the copyright line.
17:03:54 <ehird> I guessed that, but wasn't sure.
17:04:02 <ehird> Anyway, comment on ↑ >_>
17:04:10 <oklopol> i guessed he was a pedophile too
17:05:34 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:05:56 <AnMaster> if not: fingerprint device is too new to be supported under linux yet: http://reactivated.net/fprint/wiki/Unsupported_devices#AuthenTec_AES2550_.26_AES2810
17:06:08 <AnMaster> (I have the "AES2810" model in the laptop)
17:06:09 <ehird> T-Rex doesn't know how to express his feelings: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?comics=1465,1380&panels=0,1
17:08:03 <ehird> FUCK YEAH http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?comics=1063,644&panels=0,1
17:09:47 <GregorR-L> The first one would be the single worst greeting card you could send to a friend getting a transplant ;P
17:11:21 <ehird> Bleh, I wonder if I should have llvm-src/ and llvm-bin/ instead of llvm-src/ and llvm/.
17:11:33 <ehird> Although it's a tree, not just bins.
17:11:39 <GregorR-L> I wonder if anything more trivial has ever been worried about :P
17:11:56 <ehird> I can't help it >_<
17:11:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: Choose for me!
17:12:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: As is what? I HAVEN'T DECIDED YET ;_;
17:12:24 <oklopol> just call name all your folders with consecutive numbers
17:12:37 <GregorR-L> Oh, I thought it had "llvm" for bins as is.
17:12:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: Okay. But!
17:12:57 <oklopol> NO BUTS THE GREGOR HAS SPOKEN
17:13:11 <ehird> ~/Code/poseven/poseven/
17:13:11 <ehird> ~/Code/poseven/libc/
17:13:12 <ehird> ~/Code/poseven/llvm-src/
17:13:12 <ehird> ~/Code/poseven/llvm/
17:13:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: DON'T YOU SEE A PROBLEM HERE????????
17:13:52 <oklopol> have an src folder inside llvm, that'd show 'em
17:14:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: DO YOU WANT TO AFFIRM YOUR OPINION AFTER RECONSIDERING IT BASED ON NEW EVIDENCE OR CHANGE IT???? YOU MUST CONSIDER THE EVIDENCE
17:14:43 <GregorR-L> GREGOR REMAINS FIRM IN HIS CONVICTIONS
17:14:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: JUSTIFY
17:15:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: JUSTIFY… WITH ANUSES
17:18:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: >_> Fine. :P
17:20:00 <ehird> pikhq: how do microkernel systems handle scheduling of hardware?
17:20:20 <ehird> if the daemon that talks to the audio hardware isn't run for long enough
17:20:25 <ehird> your output will stutter
17:20:42 <ehird> and fast computers
17:22:17 <pikhq> ehird: That's how *most* systems handle scheduling of hardware.
17:22:45 <ehird> pikhq: Not really; the kernel isn't subject to scheduling in the same way, no?
17:22:54 <ehird> Anyway, I hate things like audio stuttering when I run an intensive computation.
17:31:21 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:32:08 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:32:18 -!- augur has joined.
17:32:23 <ehird> Reopen, rather; looks good.
17:32:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: I suggest adding a button to randomise only one panel.
17:32:35 <ehird> To create the perfect story.
17:32:39 <ehird> As in, select a panel.
17:32:44 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:32:53 <GregorR-L> Why do people not figure that out X-D
17:32:54 <ehird> I was going to say you could do it by clicking on the panel.
17:33:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Because it looks just like a regular image?
17:33:17 <ehird> It doesn't say "Click me to swap!"
17:33:22 <GregorR-L> I'll add a line at the bottom, "click on a panel, bonehead!" :P
17:33:28 -!- jix has joined.
17:33:36 <ehird> I'm not sure you understand how UI design works. :P
17:34:50 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=1493,728 T-Rex has real relationship problems
17:35:27 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=1189,1041 He and Utahraptor were going to build a time machine, but Utah was all like "screw that noise"
17:35:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: Add the ability to drag the panels to rearrange; you can do it in the URL, after all.
17:35:34 <ehird> i.e., non-ascending panel numbers.
17:35:42 <GregorR-L> Uhh, except that in the URL it makes no difference :P
17:36:14 <ehird> See, cause, stuff would be better rearranged. >_>
17:36:44 <GregorR-L> But it ruins the Dinosaur Comicsitude :P
17:36:50 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=284,950 Last one I do today :P
17:36:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: So does skipping panels.
17:38:27 <GregorR-L> ?panels=0,1 makes an awesome forum sig btw :P
17:38:51 <ehird> Forum sigs are evil.
17:38:55 <ehird> Especially image ones.
17:39:03 <GregorR-L> Your face is evil. Especially image ones.
17:39:53 <GregorR-L> (Incidentally, the munger will almost certainly not work on IE now, but *eh*, whoTF cares about IE?)
17:40:18 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It may work on IE8.
17:40:27 <pikhq> Which, though not great, is at least tolerable.
17:40:47 <pikhq> About on par with Mozilla 1.0, standards-support-wise.
17:40:48 <oklopol> i still haven't figured out a way to change firefox to english
17:40:57 <ehird> pikhq: Now now, it's slightly better than moz 1.
17:41:05 <GregorR-L> `translateto es English is for the weak.
17:41:19 <HackEgo> Inglés es para los débiles.
17:41:38 <ehird> oklopol: Options/Preferences → Content → Languages → Choose, I think.
17:41:39 <pikhq> ehird: Sure; the Mozilla suite was a bloated mess.
17:42:17 <oklopol> ehird: the only thing in options is a preference ordering of languages of page content
17:42:35 <ehird> oklopol: Yes, but the Firefox UI is built with local web pages.
17:42:44 <ehird> Alternatively, set Windows to English.
17:42:59 <oklopol> naturally my windows is in english
17:43:19 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=../../../../etc/passwd
17:43:20 <pikhq> ehird: Technically not true.
17:43:23 <ehird> Anonymous' rampage, la la la
17:43:26 <pikhq> It's built with local XUL pages.
17:43:32 <ehird> pikhq: Which are web pages.
17:43:38 <oklopol> i don't like using finnish with computers
17:43:48 <pikhq> Which are a lot like web pages, only with weirder XML.
17:43:48 * ehird saves the /etc/passwd locally.
17:43:51 <ehird> oklopol: So set Windows to English.
17:44:13 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=../../../../proc/cpuinfo
17:44:24 <oklopol> everything except firefox and torrent is in english
17:44:26 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=../../../../proc/uptime
17:44:45 <ehird> oklopol: also wow nobody calls it (mu)Torrent :P
17:44:52 <oklopol> started using internet explorer again
17:45:14 <oklopol> i just happen to know where mu is
17:45:31 <ehird> anyone got a nice exploit for linux 2.6.9? :P
17:45:35 <GregorR-L> ehird: http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=../../../../proc/self/maps Weeh :P
17:45:46 <ehird> where did you get the kernel version from btw?
17:45:49 <ehird> I saw it on reddit beforehand
17:46:01 <ehird> i'm british so it's okay.
17:46:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: right, I don't really know /proc
17:46:30 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=/etc/passwd
17:46:32 <pikhq> ehird: I don't happen to recall which ones they are.
17:46:45 <pikhq> God. That is so broken.
17:46:49 <ehird> "/var/lib/menu/kde"
17:46:54 <ehird> …this is a server?
17:47:01 <ehird> (from /etc/passwd)
17:47:04 <pikhq> WHO INSTALLS KDE ON A SERVER.
17:47:36 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=../../../../etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf
17:48:03 <pikhq> I'd call that a major fail.
17:48:26 <pikhq> Is Apache running as root or something?
17:48:28 <ehird> Darn, no /etc/shadow access :P
17:48:33 <ehird> pikhq: No; they'll just use shadow.
17:48:38 <ehird> Shows as a blank page, so.
17:48:38 <pikhq> I guess that's a no.
17:48:43 <ehird> /etc/passwd is usually world-readable.
17:48:54 <pikhq> Oh, right. Shadow.
17:49:01 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=/etc/group
17:49:01 <pikhq> The reason that /etc/passwd can be world-readable.
17:49:24 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=/var/log/dmesg
17:49:33 <ehird> Saving all these like hell :P
17:49:43 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=/etc/ssh/ssh_config
17:49:49 <Deewiant> In case you need them some day?
17:50:04 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=/etc/hosts
17:50:31 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:50:32 <ehird> What's RAM info in /proc?
17:51:19 <pikhq> See if you can get /proc/kcore. :P
17:51:22 <ehird> MemTotal: 4041436 kB
17:51:47 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/areas/visualization/papers_videos/subpage.php?page=/proc/kcore empty :(
17:52:47 <pikhq> Kernel command-line. Whee.
17:52:52 <ehird> /proc/givemerootline
17:53:37 <Deewiant> /proc/self/cmdline was uninteresting :-/
17:54:49 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/
17:55:09 <Deewiant> I managed to get a partial result, just missing half the images :-P
17:55:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: Deewiant: pikhq:
17:55:16 <ehird> That's a patched RHEL4 kernel, not just a stock 2.6.9 kernel.
17:55:16 <ehird> It looks like they're using Red Hat Enterprise Linux (or a clone). It uses a patched version of the 2.6.9 kernel. So, no, you couldn't just use any exploit from the original release of 2.6.9 to today.
17:55:19 <Deewiant> /etc/mtab, nothing interesting there either
17:55:38 <pikhq> ... That's no longer supported.
17:55:42 <ehird> Anyway... WTF, less than 1GB of RAM?
17:55:44 <ehird> What's up with that?
17:55:53 <ehird> It's a bloomin' quad-core Xeon.
17:56:01 <Deewiant> Does it take into account ram disks?
17:56:11 <pikhq> Probably running in Xen.
17:56:18 <fizzie> 4041436k is actually four gigs, isn't it?
17:56:27 <ehird> Google lied to me.
17:56:36 <ehird> Maybe 1000 vs 1024.
17:56:40 <Deewiant> Oh, you posted a number somewhere?
17:57:03 <Deewiant> And yeah, that's 4 million K i.e. 4 gigs
17:57:04 <HackEgo> 0 downloads completed with 0.00KB (0 bytes) transferred (not reported) ... <a href="http://www.torrentportal.com/details/4041436/IMG/"><img ...
17:57:29 <fizzie> "4 041 436 kilobytes = 3.85421371 gigabytes" says google-calculamator.
17:57:46 <ehird> fizzie: I said "kb" not kilobytes; I may have copied wrong or something.
17:58:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://www.torrentportal.com/details/4041436/IMG/ being "2 jailbaits - Shower Massage Fun.wmv".
17:58:24 <ehird> "Jailbaits" sounds wrong. How about jailbaitae? Jailbae? Jailbii?
18:00:37 -!- Xiin_ has changed nick to Xiin.
18:01:10 <ehird> Cheen, where ch is as in bach.
18:01:22 <ehird> Anyway, who are you, Xiin .
18:01:37 <Xiin> I'm not entirely sure
18:01:42 <ehird> Where did you come from?
18:01:45 <GregorR-L> And are you familiar enough with regex to decipher things ehird says? :P
18:01:45 <Xiin> I don't even know where this is
18:01:55 <ehird> This is a place where we do VOODOO.
18:02:03 <GregorR-L> And/or esoteric programming languages :P
18:02:06 <ehird> GregorR-L: I typo a lot >_>
18:02:13 <ehird> Because I type a lot!
18:02:19 <FireFly> Create a lang called VOODOO
18:02:26 <ehird> Or because this keyboard sucks; pick your own excuse.
18:02:29 <Xiin> Oh, I remember joining now – I didn't think that there would be anyone in here, though
18:02:50 <FireFly> Well, you were quite wrong, it seems
18:02:51 <Xiin> "This is broken English"?
18:03:05 <ehird> Xiin: So what did you come in here for?
18:04:29 <Xiin> ehird: To test my new colour layout by spamming
18:04:42 <Xiin> I've forgotten to do it at all, though
18:05:20 <EgoBot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141
18:06:10 <EgoBot> 12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940414243444546474849505152535455565758596061626364656667686970717273747576777879808182838485868788899091929394959697989910010110210310410510610710810911011111211311411511611711811912012112212312412512612712812913013113213313413513613713813914014114214314414514614714814915015115215315415515615715815916016116216316416516616716816917017117217317417517617717817918018118218318418518618718
18:06:27 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm testing DCC, silly.
18:06:48 <EgoBot> Usage: /usr/bin/seq [OPTION]... LAST
18:07:16 <ehird> !sh seq -f %b -s '' 1 10
18:07:17 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/seq: format `%b' has unknown %b directive
18:07:37 -!- Zuu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:07:46 <ehird> Doesn't glibc have %b?
18:07:54 <ehird> [18:06] EgoBot: -f, --format=FORMAT use printf style floating-point FORMAT
18:08:19 <ehird> !c for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) printf("%b", i)
18:08:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: Make it C99.
18:08:46 <Xiin> ehird: It's really cool. Would you like to see it?
18:09:03 <ehird> I don't use irssi, though.
18:09:06 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
18:09:18 <ehird> Hey, you're in the UK.
18:09:39 <Xiin> Oh, but it's so cute
18:09:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: plzzor >_>
18:09:46 <ehird> !c int i; for (i = 0; i < 10; i++) printf("%b", i)
18:09:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: Submit a hg bundle and I'll do it :P
18:10:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: gimme clone command
18:10:15 <GregorR-L> hg clone https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
18:10:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: haha you just did about the same amount of work as required to fix it
18:10:36 <ehird> by telling me what to do, making a joke, then giving me a relevant command
18:10:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: Thus, logically, you must have no qualm with doing it now yourself!
18:10:46 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
18:10:50 <ehird> *note: logic is not logical
18:11:13 <pikhq> Note: people hate logic.
18:11:17 <GregorR-L> "It's the principle of the thing" is what people say when they just don't want to do something.
18:11:25 <GregorR-L> But then, it's the principle of the thing.
18:11:28 <ehird> pikhq: People are idiots. :P
18:12:14 <pikhq> ehird: BTW, with template C. Using [foo] for the syntax has a minor flaw. Namely, that's array notation. ;)
18:12:28 <ehird> pikhq: It is in Objective-C, too.
18:12:50 <pikhq> Also, I really need to do it right, instead of hacking it together with the Tcl "subst" command.
18:13:14 <Xiin> http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l423/alice-mushroom-soup/Picture7-1-1.png
18:13:54 <pikhq> ehird: Sure, but Objective-C is an extension to C syntax.
18:14:03 <ehird> pikhq: Well, then!
18:14:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://filebin.ca/rhjpv/shit
18:14:29 <pikhq> This thing is processing it as plain text and watching for [ ] to eval.
18:14:36 <ehird> pikhq: Well make it less shit!
18:14:46 <pikhq> ehird: I intend to.
18:16:24 <ehird> !c printb(42); void printb(int i) { if (!i) putchar('0'); while (i) { r = i % 2; i >>= 1; putchar(i ? '1' : '0'); } }
18:16:30 <GregorR-L> !cxx cout << "Pretty sure you broke C++";
18:16:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, gnu99++ is obviously wrong, I think.
18:16:52 <GregorR-L> Ah, well you broke C++, because gnu99++ is nonsense :P
18:16:55 <ehird> Because, you know, it's not C++99.
18:16:59 <ehird> Right, whatever, do that :P
18:17:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, nested functions don't work?
18:17:24 <ehird> int main(void) { printb(42); void printb(int i) { if (!i) putchar('0'); while (i) { r = i % 2; i >>= 1; putchar(i ? '1' : '0'); } } }
18:17:29 <ehird> is valid gnu99, I think
18:17:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: Actually, can you give me a patch thing to the codebase of EgoBot/HackEgo?
18:17:53 <ehird> I'd like to basically add 2>&1 to the end of all the commands.
18:18:00 <ehird> Instead of being an opaque "CAN'T COMPILE LOL" thing.
18:18:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: hg clone line.
18:18:14 <GregorR-L> Uh, you already have it for EgoBot
18:18:22 <GregorR-L> HackEgo is the same, with s/egobot/hackbot/
18:18:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: I mean multibot.
18:19:23 <GregorR-L> However, that won't change anything.
18:19:30 <GregorR-L> Because multibot has nothing to do with where the output goes.
18:19:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm just going to change runcmd(foo) to runcmd(foo + " 2>&1");
18:20:09 <ehird> Why not? Are you a NAZI?
18:20:11 <GregorR-L> It just sets IRC_SOCK=/tmp/multibot.foo and runs it, multibot doesn't change where the output goes.
18:20:46 <ehird> setenv("IRC_SOCK", sockName, 1);
18:20:46 <ehird> setenv("IRC_NICK", nick, 1);
18:20:46 <ehird> setenv("IRC_IDENT", ident, 1);
18:20:46 <ehird> setenv("IRC_HOST", host, 1);
18:20:47 <ehird> chdir(COMMANDS_DIR);
18:20:47 <ehird> execv(newargs[0] + sizeof(COMMANDS_DIR), newargs);
18:20:49 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
18:21:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: PRIVMSG/tr_21.cmd?
18:21:08 <ehird> It seems to handle scmds.
18:21:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: EgoBot's copy is different.
18:21:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: And HackBot's uses /, doesn't it?
18:22:10 <ehird> !cxx cout << "this work yet?"
18:23:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, be a pal. In EgoBot and HackEgo:
18:23:33 <ehird> scmds/$CMD "$CMD" "$ARG" "$@" |
18:23:37 <ehird> scmds/$CMD "$CMD" "$ARG" "$@" 2>&1 |
18:25:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: Wait, gnu++0x?
18:26:10 <pikhq> ehird: The main-line support of GNU++0x is GNU C++ with C99 features.
18:26:21 <pikhq> More complex work is in a branch.
18:27:03 <ehird> !c printb(42); void printb(int i) { if (!i) putchar('0'); while (i) { r = i % 2; i >>= 1; putchar(i ? '1' : '0'); } }
18:27:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: ADD IT BITCH ;_;
18:27:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's a two-line change dood ;_;
18:28:23 <ehird> !c void printb(int i) { if (!i) putchar('0'); while (i) { r = i % 2; i >>= 1; putchar(i ? '1' : '0'); } }; printb(42);
18:29:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'll rip your soul apart.
18:29:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: Then poop on it.
18:39:46 <pikhq> Gah. My grandmother is a Palin fan.
18:40:13 <ehird> “First we kill Bin Laden’s son, then we win in Iraq, and pretty soon we’ll have settled the score with everyone who had nothing to do with 9/11.”
18:40:17 <ehird> pikhq: How old is she?
18:41:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: I believe my mother is relatively older to me than yours. Ha!
18:41:27 <ehird> …this is a competition, right?
18:41:37 <pikhq> GregorR-L: And your grandmother?
18:41:50 <ehird> [18:41] GregorR-L: `calc 60 - 23
18:41:51 <ehird> [18:41] HackEgo: 60 - 23 = 37
18:41:51 <ehird> [18:41] GregorR-L: She's 83
18:41:59 <ehird> almost spit out my coke before i realised wtf you were talking about xD
18:42:02 <pikhq> Approximately how old my great-grandfather is.
18:42:05 <GregorR-L> My GRANDMOTHER is 83 you dog biscuit.
18:42:40 <oklopol> my grandmother was like 91 and just died
18:42:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: Anyway, after scientific calculations, I got you beat. Ha.
18:42:54 <ehird> (Apparently there was a significant risk I'd have Down's syndrome…)
18:43:20 <oklopol> would be cool to try to become ehird's stepdad
18:43:20 <pikhq> My mom's like 38...
18:43:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: I can only conclude that your grandmother was about 13 when she had your mom :P
18:43:59 <ehird> pikhq: lawl teen babies
18:44:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: …how does that follow at all XD
18:44:25 <GregorR-L> Stupid you and pikhq having the same nick length
18:44:50 <ehird> But yeah, wtf@pikhq's family. :P
18:44:53 <ehird> Any inbreeding going on there too?
18:45:08 <pikhq> I'm my own cousin twice over.
18:45:26 <ehird> I don't want to figure out the family tree that results in that,
18:45:28 <GregorR-L> ehird: I thought your mom was like 45 when she had you, but your grandmother was currently 60, and I was going >_O
18:45:29 <ehird> but I'm sure it's incredibly Southern.
18:45:31 <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
18:45:41 <pikhq> ehird: You know the Hatfields?
18:45:53 <GregorR-L> `addquote <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
18:45:54 <HackEgo> 56|<oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
18:46:08 <oklopol> you seem to enjoy quoting me
18:46:09 <pikhq> Had a famous feud with the McCoy's?
18:46:19 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, I figured that out post-google.
18:46:36 <pikhq> Yeah, that's my mom's side of the family.
18:46:56 <ehird> Maybe I'll ask Wolfram Alpha what being your own cousin twice over implies.
18:46:57 <HackEgo> Apr 23, 2009 ... Max Wertheimer (April 15, 1880 October 12, 1943) was a Czech-born Jewish teacher who was one of the three founders of Gestalt psychology, ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Wertheimer - [13]Cached - [14]Similar
18:47:17 <ehird> "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input."
18:47:22 <ehird> that's what SHE said!
18:49:46 <ehird> http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENBRIT/2000-02/0950477670
18:49:56 <ehird> pikhq: I conclude your family tree has a lot of wiggly lines.
18:55:21 <oklopol> having sex is a much more fun way to build complex data structures than programming
18:59:45 <oklopol> (actually had to think for a moment to make sure that's not possible :P)
19:01:25 <oklopol> you could add some sorta stepparent relations
19:01:49 <oklopol> like if you married your grandma, you'd have a stepgrandparent relation to yourself
19:10:27 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=245,509 T-Rex nitpicks
19:13:45 <oklopol> are american girls retarded or something or why can't they just drop it themselves?
19:13:52 <oklopol> i've never really understood that thing
19:18:08 <oklopol> the stupidity of complaining about it may of course be the reason it has become a tv show meme. i just decided i'd mock america when GregorR is near
19:18:39 <GregorR-L> I would mock your country if it was significant enough for me to have any appreciable knowledge of it.
19:18:41 <oklopol> i like to create these sorta microthings to myself randomly.
19:19:00 <oklopol> GregorR-L: so would your face
19:20:00 <oklopol> i'd love to move to america, it seems like an awesome country
19:20:21 <oklopol> or really anything with big cities
19:20:31 <oklopol> i don't really give a shit what the people are like
19:20:38 <oklopol> microthings have nothing to do with my opinions
19:22:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:25:14 <AnMaster> what would be the fastest way to transfer a file over LAN
19:25:48 <AnMaster> it is not a single file, but rather a directory of files
19:26:21 <GregorR-L> tar zcf - myFavoriteDirectory | netcat -l -p 1234
19:26:22 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I tried using rsync (not over ssh)... I only get roughly 12 MB/s with it
19:26:44 <GregorR-L> So, by "unencrypted" and "low overhead" you mean "I actually don't care" :P
19:26:46 <AnMaster> wait I'm close to maxing network out?
19:27:01 <AnMaster> since it is 100 mbps in one end
19:27:14 <AnMaster> so I can't go faster than about 12.5 megabyte / sec anyway
19:27:31 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, never mind. There are physical limitations preventing going faster :/
19:28:31 <oklopol> i want statistics on how people wipe their asses
19:29:07 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'm in a great minority, but not that many people have actually shared with me their methods, so can't be sure
19:29:23 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, in theory I can get 12.5 MB/s (100 mbit) I'm getting 12.41 MB/s. Which is pretty good considering...
19:29:26 <oklopol> hope i didn't interrupt anything, even if i did, this is a more interesting subject
19:31:07 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, using -z to rsync to compress slows things down
19:31:26 <AnMaster> I guess cpu is more of a limit than network
19:34:53 <oklopol> fizzie: do you just do graphs, or also polls to acquire the data?
19:36:29 <fizzie> I personally don't do polls-for-people, if that's what you mean; when the urge to graph something strikes me, I just try to extricate data from any random existing thing.
19:42:08 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=755,482 Baaaaahahah (discovered/munged by a friend of mine)
19:42:12 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: How do those dinosaurComic.php?comics= numbers relate to qwantz.com/index.php?comic= numbers
19:42:34 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: Not very well ... when you go to a comic at qwantz.com, look at the URL for the image, that's the number used in my PHP script.
19:42:44 <GregorR-L> For some reason there's no logical correspondence though >_>
19:43:46 <GregorR-L> I could have potentially done it in some different way, but I decided I didn't want to parse anything, so I just download comic2-$rand.png
19:47:36 <GregorR-L> (Mind you, I ended up having to parse something anyway ... whoops?)
19:48:18 <Deewiant> It'd be nice if the mapping weren't one-way
19:48:34 <GregorR-L> Yeah, not much I can do about that though :(
19:48:54 <Deewiant> You can create a dinosaurComic2.php that does it right :-P
19:49:54 <Deewiant> ( GregorR-L) That's what SHE said
19:51:57 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
19:52:00 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
20:03:07 <ehird> [18:55] oklopol: having sex is a much more fun way to build complex data structures than programming
20:03:07 <ehird> [18:56] oklopol: maybe more like graphs.
20:03:07 <ehird> + time travel = cyclic family graphs
20:03:23 <ehird> [19:13] oklopol: are american girls retarded or something or why can't they just drop it themselves?
20:03:23 <ehird> too much interbreeding
20:04:43 <oklopol> with time travel, the universe needs garbage collection to get rid of family trees that are completely self-created.
20:05:27 <pikhq> Unfortunately, family trees are only reference-counted.
20:05:51 <ehird> so pikhq how does it feel to have bad genes
20:05:55 <ehird> are they uncomfortable, try khakis
20:05:59 <oklopol> pikhq: at least in futurama
20:06:29 <pikhq> oklopol: You mean that wasn't a documentary?
20:06:55 <ehird> *inbreeding not interbreeding
20:07:02 <ehird> i wonder how recently inbreeding happened in this family
20:07:03 <oklopol> documentary on a dude who went back in time and had sex with his grandma?
20:07:11 <ehird> anyone know a site where they magically learn about babies
20:07:17 <ehird> and assemble a family tree?
20:08:40 <GregorR-L> To be a completely detached family tree, you'd have to go back in time and have sex with your descendant who also went back in time to have sex with you, thereby establishing yourself as your own n-great grandfather.
20:08:55 <GregorR-L> And even then, some jerk would go and have sex outside the family I'm sure.
20:09:17 <ehird> anyway becoming your own parent is wildly unlikely
20:09:24 <ehird> most likely you'll be birthed by other means
20:09:28 <ehird> and you just get an extra sibling
20:09:39 <oklopol> in a sensible universe you probably want to garbage-collect all even partly self-supported parts
20:09:50 <pikhq> Unless it's like Futuruma.
20:10:05 <ehird> pikhq: yeah but the odds against a fry situation are incredibly minimal
20:10:18 <oklopol> and incredibly well defined.
20:10:20 <pikhq> Then, your nominal grandfather gets blasted by a nuclear test.
20:10:27 <pikhq> While you're banging your grandmother.
20:10:56 <oklopol> ugh, why am i in a time travel discussion
20:11:27 <GregorR-L> The much-coveted "less than or minus" operator
20:11:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: x < y || x - y
20:12:35 <GregorR-L> Booleans are "0 == true" and "1 == false" btw
20:13:10 <ehird> >>> def op(x, y): return int(x < y or x - y)
20:13:14 <ehird> gotta be useful for something!
20:13:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: i'd prefer it being more like
20:13:33 <ehird> if x < y: return x else: return x - y
20:13:52 <ehird> which is basically "minus but NO NEGATIVES PLZ"
20:13:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:14:00 <ehird> that's what "less than or minus" conveys to me
20:14:31 <oerjan> !haskell :t ((<)||negate)
20:15:08 <oerjan> !haskell :t "Anybody there?"
20:15:09 <EgoBot> "Anybody there?" :: [Char]
20:15:11 <pikhq> x <- y = x < y || x - y
20:15:19 <pikhq> Most useless operator ever.
20:15:24 <ehird> pikhq: because it doesn't type.
20:15:29 <ehird> oerjan: no, it's not that
20:15:47 <ehird> def op(x, y): return int(x < y or x - y)
20:15:56 <ehird> def op(x, y): return x if x < y else x - y
20:16:01 <ehird> the latter being arguably more useful
20:16:03 <oerjan> !haskell :t \x y -> x < y || x - y
20:16:08 <ehird> "take this away as long as it doesn't fuck up"
20:16:12 <ehird> oerjan: well okay num bool
20:16:25 <ehird> someone harass gwern to get ourselves \bot back
20:16:28 <oerjan> why the heck doesn't it answer
20:16:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: did you ever do the 2>&1 thing?
20:16:42 <oerjan> ehird: don't bother if it cannot be permanent
20:17:57 <oerjan> because it will just be annoying next time it disconnects again
20:18:05 <pikhq> Y'know, Lambdabot is free software.
20:18:13 <pikhq> Ehird, you could totally run a \bot.
20:18:29 <ehird> It's a shitfucking pain to compile.
20:18:32 * oerjan realizes he has _very_ messed up priorities there
20:19:36 <oerjan> if something cannot be perfect, i cannot bother doing it at all :(
20:20:08 <oerjan> unless it is also trivial.
20:20:09 <pikhq> What a mathematician.
20:21:03 <ehird> oerjan: i thought like that onc
20:21:10 <oerjan> that personality quirk may be the reason i went into mathematics.
20:21:13 <ehird> but then i realised that it reduced all projects to "induce singularity"
20:21:43 <pikhq> ehird: You mean not all your projects are "induce singularity"?
20:21:55 <ehird> Funnily enough, no.
20:22:50 * FireFly has this idea of running an IRC bot written in Migol, running on a DS acting as a server
20:23:06 <FireFly> I'm too lazy to actually buy a server
20:23:25 <ehird> FireFly: Laptops make good home servers.
20:23:39 <ehird> Small, can easily be run headless, and quiet
20:24:39 <pikhq> FireFly: A DS acting as a server?
20:24:51 <pikhq> ehird: A Nintendo DS.
20:24:59 <ehird> I was just saying re: buying a server.
20:25:11 <FireFly> Well, A DS running a Migol interpreter written as DS homebrew
20:25:15 <ehird> Because you can get a 9" Dell laptop for, like, £100.
20:25:19 <FireFly> That connects to the IRC server
20:25:23 <ehird> But still, expensive vs £0.
20:25:27 <pikhq> FireFly: Just write it for Linux.
20:25:38 <ehird> The DS doesn't have an MMU, pikhq.
20:25:44 <ehird> So… not the best choice of OS.
20:25:52 <pikhq> ehird: ucLinux doesn't need an MMU.
20:26:06 <ehird> The DS has very lwo resources.
20:26:22 <ehird> Yes, but layering Linux on top won't help any.
20:27:08 <pikhq> It has multiprocessing, though.
20:29:04 <ehird> "I don't. Atheists can be nice people too. But people that REALLY BELIEVE that they will be on hell for eternity don't commit crimes."
20:29:25 <ehird> [[Yeah, they believe that god is watching their every move and that they will go to hell if they commit the crime... but they think "hey, what the hell, hell seems nice".]]
20:29:26 <ehird> ↑ …does anyone actually think that?
20:30:01 <oerjan> what about people who think they've already been so bad they'll go to hell anyway?
20:30:17 <ehird> JESUS WILL CLEANSE YOU OF YOUR SINS
20:31:28 <ehird> to link an ELF operating system I need a cross-compiler bintools thing
20:33:16 <ehird> "One of the outcomes of the initial attempt to port Hurd to the L4 microkernel was an effort to make Hurd more microkernel independent, rather than relying solely on the Mach interfaces."
20:33:22 <ehird> That's so ridiculous
20:34:32 <ehird> "A Hurd process, on the other hand, runs under a set of user ids, which can contain multiple ids, one, or none."
20:34:38 <ehird> how does this interact with getuid()?
20:35:59 <ehird> All this applies to the current development version, and not to the last release (0.2). We encourage everybody who is interested to try out the latest development version, and send feedback to the Hurd developers.[…]That said, the last official release of the Hurd without the Debian parts was 0.2 done in 1997.
20:36:09 <ehird> "Don't use the last version (which happens to be from 1997)"
20:36:15 <ehird> This was written this year :P
20:36:38 <ehird> "People already expect delays; to disappoint them in this way as well would be unfortunate."
20:36:46 <ehird> …no…we expect it to die a slow and painful death.
20:37:12 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR-L: There's a guy who actually uses Hurd as his desktop OS.
20:37:31 <ehird> And has done for TWO YEARS.
20:37:35 <ehird> See http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/status.html
20:38:06 <ehird> I mean, if it was, like, 10 years, that'd be more understandable.
20:38:22 <ehird> A crazy person who got involved when it still looked feasible and is too stubborn to get out.
20:38:28 <ehird> But to decide, in 2007, to switch to the Hurd?
20:41:30 <oerjan> ehird: a slow and painful death is just a delay that got out of control
20:42:07 <ehird> oerjan: "You have cancer. This will result in a wild delay."
20:43:17 <oerjan> clearly that's a result of delaying quitting smoking. see?
20:43:46 <ehird> oerjan: "You have cancer completely randomly. This will result in a wild delay."
20:43:52 <ehird> a result of delaying not having cancer!
20:44:31 <ehird> Q3. Why bother writing a new OS when we have Linux and 386/BSD?
20:44:32 <ehird> For one thing, Linux and BSD don't scale well. Hardware designers are
20:44:32 <ehird> shifting more and more toward multiprocessor machines for performance,
20:44:32 <ehird> and standard Unix kernels do not provide much multiprocessor support.
20:44:35 <oerjan> rubbish, it's a result of delaying your cancer checkups. some stupid people let it go several _years_ without them.
20:44:51 <ehird> oerjan: it's an incurable type of cancer, so that wouldn't help
20:45:28 <oerjan> no cancer is incurable if you catch it early enough. nanobots will help us there.
20:45:40 <ehird> oerjan: in the future perhaps.
20:46:25 <oerjan> yes, how many tragedies have not been caused by this irresponsible delaying of the future.
20:47:34 <ehird> i can't figure out how to organise this properly
20:47:46 <ehird> pikhq: "Hurd-ng is an effort to build a new operating system that preserves the main design goals of the Hurd while fixing some of the Hurd's shortcomings. There is not yet an official roadmap or a concrete specification; indeed, much of the work is research oriented."
20:47:58 <ehird> "HURD WORKS TOO MUCH. MUST REINVENT."
20:48:46 <GregorR-L> Yup, sounds like a research project.
20:50:09 <ehird> ~/Code/poseven/env/src/llvm/ → ~/Code/poseven/env/bin/
20:50:19 <ehird> ~/Code/poseven/env/src/binutils/ → ~/Code/poseven/env/bin/
20:50:27 <ehird> then ~/Code/poseven/other shit
20:52:46 <oerjan> is that pos-even or po-seven?
20:53:32 <ehird> oerjan: pun on posix
20:53:58 <ehird> the name is aesthetically pleasing, although interestingly only in lowercase
20:54:09 <ehird> oklopol: i mentioned it when i came up with it, iirc :P
20:54:12 <ehird> oerjan: hyuk hyuk hyuk
20:54:31 <oklopol> ehird: i must not have read that
20:55:08 <oklopol> i may have *seen* the message where you said it, but i don't read all logs i browse.
20:55:47 <oerjan> this could go on even further, potentially
20:56:17 <ehird> oerjan: after a while it'll just be ponine and lose its charm
20:58:20 <oklopol> no i was busy getting oerjan's slightly simpler pun.
20:58:42 <oerjan> i still haven't got ehird's
20:58:50 <ehird> oerjan: ponine/benign
20:59:58 <ehird> I'm going to like with gold.
21:00:01 <ehird> clang, LLVM and gold.
21:03:11 <ehird> if you have something in /usr/src/foo, where do you put your build directory?
21:03:38 <oerjan> /usr/bob-the-builder/misc/foo
21:03:59 <ehird> it's can we fix it
21:04:01 <ehird> not can we build it
21:04:23 <oerjan> i've seen him build things too
21:07:13 * oerjan notes that "frank the fixer" exists
21:08:15 * oerjan discards the one google hit with both in it
21:09:24 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=859,1340,115 Happy Canada Day everyone!
21:10:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: link to the munger
21:10:23 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/weird/dinosaurComicMunger.xhtml
21:10:29 <oerjan> GregorR-L: you're rather late for that
21:10:45 <GregorR-L> oerjan: WELL THE COMIC IS STILL FUNNY SO BLEH :P
21:11:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=1,2&comics=1213,209
21:11:47 <ehird> A proof of shit being recognized as bananas.
21:12:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,3,5&comics=1140,1106,560
21:13:05 <ehird> T-Rex explores alternate history; dodos.
21:15:13 <pikhq> Universe where nobody ever dies? Man.
21:15:38 <pikhq> Screw rocket cars. Nuclear propulsion cars.
21:15:59 <oerjan> i guess if nobody ever dies, those would be safe
21:15:59 <ehird> Note: You could still be in a coma for the rest of your life :P
21:16:11 <pikhq> But that won't actually go at any pace.
21:16:36 <pikhq> ehird: The primary risk from a nuclear propulsion car would be the radiation causing cancer.
21:16:37 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,4&comics=1038,787
21:16:55 <pikhq> If you can't die, then cancer treatment would be pretty damned effective.
21:17:20 <ehird> Death is kind of meaningless if you can still come to arbitrary amounts of harm.
21:17:39 <ehird> Anyway, someone answer my build path question.
21:17:45 <ehird> Build path of /usr/src/foo = ???
21:18:30 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=4,5&comics=684,1439
21:19:13 <ehird> LOL: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=1,5&comics=918,157
21:20:58 <ehird> Physical buttons have the unique ability to provide low-attention and vision-free interactions through their intuitive tactile clues. Unfortunately, the physicality of these interfaces makes them static, limiting the number and types of user interfaces they can support. On the other hand, touch screen technologies provide the ultimate interface flexibility, but offer no inherent tactile qualities. In this paper, we describe a technique that seeks to occupy
21:20:59 <ehird> The outcome of our investigations is a visual display that contains deformable areas, able to produce physical buttons and other interface elements. These tactile features can be dynamically brought into and out of the interface, and otherwise manipulated under program control. The surfaces we describe provide the full dynamics of a visual display (through rear projection) as well as allowing for multitouch input (though an infrared lighting and camera setu
21:21:17 <ehird> http://www.chrisharrison.net/projects/pneumaticdisplays/
21:21:21 <ehird> Buttonable touchscreens.
21:21:33 <pikhq> ehird: LCARS HAS BEEN INVENTED!
21:21:50 <ehird> pikhq: It's not _quite_ arbitrary though, I don't think.
21:22:04 <ehird> Also, "as well as allowing for multitouch input (though an infrared lighting and camera setup behind the display"
21:22:13 <ehird> That's not gonna be very good multitouch.
21:22:23 <ehird> pikhq: The tactile areas are actually fixed
21:22:28 <ehird> So you have to keep stuff in the same place
21:22:31 <pikhq> That is very much proof of concept.
21:22:55 <ehird> There's no real way to have arbitrary push-areas with this technology, I don't think.
21:23:10 <pikhq> Still pretty sweet, though.
21:24:32 <pikhq> Actually, if you had a very large number of tiny cells, you could *maybe* get arbitrary push-areas.
21:24:43 <pikhq> Though I doubt that'd be practical.
21:24:53 <pikhq> Or very nice to use.
21:25:27 <pikhq> Still, something at least vaguely like that would actually make for nice computer UIs.
21:26:16 <ehird> pikhq: They could only be one phyxel big, though.
21:26:19 <ehird> As in, no rectangles.
21:26:22 <ehird> Because it'd be ridged.
21:26:29 <ehird> Also, these won't be clacky.
21:26:32 <ehird> More latex-feeling.
21:26:51 <pikhq> Yeah, not all that nice.
21:27:56 <ehird> /usr/src/build, I think.
21:31:45 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=859,1340,115&strip Whoot new feature
21:32:06 <ehird> GregorR-L: doesn't add &strip to the bottom line
21:35:38 <GregorR-L> Hahah, accidental additional feature: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,0,0,0,0&strip
21:36:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=1,0&comics=1510,181&strip
21:36:13 <GregorR-L> The only reason that didn't work before is that it was overwriting the same place with new content *shrugs*
21:36:30 <ehird> "Too many panels!" :(
21:36:33 <GregorR-L> Is that your SUBTLE way of telling my script is BETTER THAN EVER and JOYFUL?!
21:37:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: Haha, I didn't even think of it as a compliment on the script, but it makes most sense that way.
21:39:44 <ehird> poseven will be pretty cool ^_^
21:40:13 <ehird> bochs @2.3.7 (emulators)
21:40:13 <ehird> Variants: smp, universal
21:40:13 <ehird> ↑ Does smp let you run multiple virtual cores on multiple real cores?
21:40:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: Wow, people really don't get it, do they?
21:40:22 <ehird> oklopol didn't either :P
21:40:43 <pikhq> I read it as pos-even.
21:40:49 <GregorR-L> I ought three because I have a friend that always seems three talk like that ...
21:40:50 <pikhq> And I was like "Uh?"
21:41:16 <ehird> Anyway, poseven just looks nice lowercased.
21:41:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Oh, "to" → "two" :P
21:45:38 <oklopol> i did not read it as pos-even, i did not realize it could be a pun!
21:45:54 <oklopol> do not overestimate my non-gettings
21:46:12 <oklopol> i just thought it was a pretty word.
21:46:24 <GregorR-L> Funny, I thought it was an ugly word.
21:47:20 <oklopol> nah, it's not nice to laugh at stupid people.
21:47:42 <ehird> poseven isn't ugly.
21:48:57 <oklopol> imo it's the most beautiful poN of all naturals.
21:49:05 <ehird> you know what irrtates me?
21:49:11 <ehird> to get bochs to run a different thingy
21:49:15 <ehird> you need to change the config file.
21:49:21 <oklopol> makes the pun better, and N already implies that
21:49:44 <pikhq> ehird: Because bochs is poorly designed on the UI front.
21:49:55 <oklopol> anyway, good night sleep happy dream time.
21:49:56 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
21:49:57 <ehird> at least let me do "bochs shit"
21:50:16 <ehird> not "e /opt/local/share/bochs/bochsrc.txt && bochs"
21:51:51 <ehird> or is there another way?
21:55:05 <ehird> -f configfile specify configuration file
21:56:09 <ehird> 2) Create a disk image for the emulator.
21:56:09 <ehird> -cd /opt/local/share/bochs
21:56:09 <ehird> -sudo bximage (prompts will guide you)
21:56:09 <ehird> -sudo chmod 777 <diskimg-name>
21:56:10 <ehird> 3) Remove the current 'ata0-master:' statement in /opt/local/share/bochs/bochsrc.txt
21:56:10 <ehird> and replace it with the 'ata0-master:' string displayed at the end of the bximage
21:56:15 <ehird> I wonder wtf it uses that for
22:00:41 <ehird> that's the hard drive i think
22:00:48 <ehird> so it doesn't matter if you're e.g. making a bootable floppy
22:01:13 <ehird> otoh that kind of limits your options
22:08:44 <ehird> sure is active around here
22:20:27 -!- ehird has quit.
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22:25:57 <ehird> o\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\FUCK
22:26:00 <augur> oerjan youve got something on your forehead
22:26:10 <ehird> MY CLIENT IS MAKING SMILIES SMALLER
22:26:18 <ehird> CONSPIRACY UNWOUND
22:26:37 <ehird> HHAAHAHA I DEFEATED MY CLIENT'S PLOT
22:33:36 <pikhq> Øh, that Ørjan. He Kan tell yøu that møøse bites Kan be prity nasti.
22:33:57 <ehird> hoots mon there's a moose loose aboot this hoose
22:34:40 <oerjan> i hæve never been bytten by a møøse
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22:35:53 <ehird> KingOfKarlsruhe: you are a crap king
22:36:39 <ehird> KingOfKarlsruhe: more like co nomment
22:37:22 <ehird> / om nom nom nomment
22:47:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
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22:54:53 <GregorR> Which is funnier, www.t-rex-is-lonely-comics.com or www.dinosaur-comics-minus-the-others.com
22:55:34 <FireFly> The second instantly makes me think of Garfield-minus-garfield
22:56:27 <GregorR> Yeah, that was the reference.
22:56:39 <GregorR> That was what a friend of mine wanted to call it.
22:56:47 <GregorR> I still like T-Rex is Lonely Comics
22:56:51 <GregorR> But they're both pretty good.
22:56:59 <augur> these are such ripoffs :|
22:57:15 <FireFly> I'd prefer the first one, yeah
22:58:02 <GregorR> augur: Yes, good for you, you've noticed that this is not a new concept?
22:58:39 <augur> its a ripoff of g-g AND dinosaur comics!
22:59:20 <GregorR> Yes, it is an application of the idea behind g-g to Dinosaur Comics.
22:59:42 <GregorR> <augur> ALL THINGS DERIVATIVE IN ANY WAY ARE EVIL
23:00:05 <augur> derivatives arent evil!
23:00:11 <augur> ANTIderivatives are
23:00:23 <augur> derivatives you can atleast find for any function. :|
23:00:53 <augur> be sure to credit g-g and dinocomics
23:00:56 * oerjan swats augur for using words that others have used -----###
23:01:35 <augur> words are not copyrighted ideas
23:01:43 <augur> they are opensource
23:02:23 <FireFly> Not if they're trademarked?
23:02:45 <GregorR> <augur> be sure to credit g-g and dinocomics // duuuuuuuuuuuuh
23:02:54 <augur> trademark isnt quite the same as copyright
23:03:06 <augur> its more naming right
23:03:30 <augur> plus, trademarks go away when the speech community de-brandifies a word
23:03:36 <FireFly> Well, it's not completely public domain then? (or is it?)
23:04:04 <augur> it is, sort of? if public domain is a copyright thing, then maybe
23:04:25 <augur> i dont think trademark intersects public domain
23:04:33 <augur> we might need to reconceptualize that
23:06:00 -!- ehird has quit.
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23:22:32 -!- ehird has joined.
23:23:37 <ehird> [22:54] GregorR: Which is funnier, www.t-rex-is-lonely-comics.com or www.dinosaur-comics-minus-the-others.com
23:23:42 <ehird> dinosaurs-cant-actually-talk.com
23:24:07 <ehird> GregorR: t-rex-only-qwantz
23:24:30 <oerjan> ehird: you LIAR, that doesn't exist
23:24:45 <ehird> he's asking for domain name suggestions
23:27:18 <ehird> GregorR: anyway not actually worth a domain
23:27:48 <pikhq> Domains are cheap.
23:27:59 <FireFly> (incoming "so is you mother" from ehird)
23:28:09 <ehird> it's pointless getting one for something that is hard to find a good domain for
23:28:12 <ehird> and will not be popular at all
23:28:48 <ehird> haha today's dinosaur comic is amazing
23:35:23 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:35:46 <oerjan> well duh, obviously it would be fiber, not dialup
23:35:59 <ehird> yeah dinosaur comics are all about fiber
23:36:03 -!- Pthing has joined.
23:36:19 <ehird> oerjan: perhaps you meant "AnMaster: "? :p
23:36:44 <ehird> "connecting via dialup to boner central"
23:37:31 <oerjan> ehird: curiously, AnMaster is not here
23:38:02 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:38:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:56:27 <ehird> can the hurd boot via grub 2? :D
23:59:30 <pikhq> Yes; Grub 2 also implements Multiboot.
23:59:53 <ehird> oh man it'd be so fun to have a "top of the line" gnu system
23:59:56 <ehird> grub 2 booting hurd
00:00:05 <ehird> all the shit nobody uses!
00:00:08 <ehird> all long options, all the time!
00:00:37 <ehird> grub 2 booting gnu hurd booting gnome
00:00:41 <pikhq> Shush you. Long options are nice.
00:00:51 <ehird> Sgeo: yes, yes, so do i
00:00:57 <ehird> pikhq: looked at ls --help recently?
00:01:02 <ehird> hmm with bazaar to manage your code
00:01:04 <Sgeo> I mean, when I'm not using Windows >.>
00:01:34 <ehird> would be quite easily, actuall
00:01:41 <ehird> install Debian/kHURD
00:01:49 <ehird> and you're pretty much done
00:02:33 <ehird> although debian isn't really the platonic ideal
00:02:38 <ehird> can you get gNewSense/kHURD? :D
00:02:49 <GregorR> gNewSense is just reduced Debian ...
00:03:03 <ehird> GregorR: Exactly, reduced.
00:03:13 <ehird> GregorR: But uh, it's Ubuntu, isn't it?
00:03:38 <Sgeo> Is Stackless Python a good idea?
00:03:39 <ehird> Anyway, gNewSense/kHURD booted from GRUB 2 = an OS only rms could love.
00:03:56 <ehird> Sgeo: Don't bother actually using it, though.
00:04:21 <ehird> GregorR: Yah, it's Ubuntu-based
00:04:29 <ehird> Also ugly as fuck.
00:05:16 <ehird> Maybe there's a script to produce gNewSense from Debian, or somtehing.
00:05:18 <Sgeo> gNuisance? </bad-pun>
00:05:27 <ehird> Sgeo: That's not your pun, that's theirs.
00:06:05 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't bother coming up with what I falsely think is original stuff
00:06:08 <ehird> "We're also the first distribution to remove GLX^, which Debian has ignored for years."
00:06:11 <pikhq> ehird: They've published their scripts.
00:06:13 <ehird> Thanks for the innovation, gNewSense!
00:06:24 <pikhq> Should be trivial to modify it for Debian.
00:06:45 <ehird> Sgeo: ^GLX is needed for hardware-accelerated 3d graphics in X. Recompiling X, and removing OpenGL, are required due to the non-free SGI Free B license.
00:07:01 <ehird> gNewSense are providing wonderful innovation by removing all 3d acceleration from X11!
00:07:05 <ehird> FREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOM
00:07:14 <ehird> (Although, "(GLX was removed from gNewSense over its licencing issues, but has been re-introduced apon being freed early in 2009)". HOORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY?)
00:07:33 <pikhq> ... Never mind that X's GL support is not actually an OpenGL implementation.
00:07:54 <ehird> [[While Builder is geared towards gNewSense, with some modification it can be used to create and maintain a fork of any .deb based distribution.]]
00:07:58 <pikhq> Mesa != OpenGL. It just happens to be bug-for-bug compatible. :P
00:07:59 <ehird> RMS WOULD BE PROUD
00:08:08 <ehird> I'm now taking donations for a completely free system
00:08:10 <ehird> Coreboot and the rest
00:08:27 <ehird> I'll stick 100 photographs of rms all over the case.
00:08:33 <pikhq> ehird: They do not just say "all-free fork of any .deb-based distribution".
00:08:43 <ehird> pikhq: Nonono, I mean
00:08:47 <ehird> RMS would be proud because it means I can use it
00:09:02 <oerjan> FREEDOM FREE AS IN FREEDOM FREE
00:09:03 <ehird> For the amazing coreboot/GRUB 2/HURD/gNewSense/GNOME monstrosity.
00:09:29 <ehird> "No, LiveCDs are available from our Mirrors. You only need to download 30GB if you want to use Builder to create your own distribution."
00:09:29 <pikhq> More hardcore than Stallman.
00:09:56 <pikhq> That's the whole set of .debs.
00:09:57 <ehird> pikhq: I'll make the bootup sound the Free Software song.
00:10:12 <ehird> BEEP! Krrrnkrkrrrrnkkrrrrnk……………… JOIN US NOW AND SHARE THE SOFTWARE
00:10:15 <ehird> YOUUU'LL BE FREEEEEEEEEE, HACKERS
00:10:18 <ehird> YOUUUU'LL BE FREEEEEEEEE
00:10:27 <ehird> and it plays it out in total before showing the log in box
00:11:01 <Sgeo> Should I attempt to learn wxPython, or are there better GUI frameworks to learn?
00:11:04 <pikhq> A system even Stallman couldn't love.
00:11:17 <ehird> Sgeo: Just use a gtk or qt binding.
00:11:27 <ehird> Cross platform frameworks, in my experience, are simply The Suck.
00:11:32 <ehird> pikhq: gtkhs, actually.
00:11:48 <ehird> pikhq: gtk2hs, actually. :P
00:12:45 <Sgeo> The wiki is suggesting to install PythonCard??????
00:13:13 <ehird> The Python wiki is worthless.
00:13:19 <Sgeo> PythonCard is a crutch. I used it once because I needed the crutch.
00:13:22 <ehird> Sgeo: Just use a gtk binding, seriously.
00:13:45 <ehird> I commandest thou.
00:13:52 -!- augur_ has joined.
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00:14:19 <Sgeo> "Version 2.4 Last updated 2005-04-13"
00:14:31 <ehird> Sgeo: Ok, so use another one.
00:14:40 <ehird> Sgeo: http://www.pygtk.org/
00:14:47 <ehird> Yeah, that's totally 2005.
00:14:58 <Sgeo> http://www.pygtk.org/tutorial.html
00:15:31 <Sgeo> The current version is 2.15
00:16:02 <Sgeo> Is the tutorial dangerously out-of-date, or out-of-date in a way that won't hurt me?
00:16:22 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=pygtk+tutorial&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
00:16:33 <ehird> this isn't hard, man
00:16:37 <ehird> take some initiative
00:17:06 <ehird> that's what "take some initiative" means :-P
00:17:48 * Sgeo was hoping for a more official tutorial, I guess
00:22:34 <Sgeo> self.bardejov = gtk.gdk.pixbuf_new_from_file("bardejov.jpg")
00:23:24 <ehird> self.yourmom = ...
00:24:26 * Sgeo decides that this tutorial is crap
00:26:01 <ehird> the first decision Sgeo's ever made on his own :
00:34:20 * Sgeo may change his mind
00:35:36 * Sgeo is an /r/IAmA addict
00:38:30 <ehird> P.S. IAmA shithead
00:53:27 <AnMaster> wow nice integration. a man:ufw link on ubuntu's website popped up a dialog asking if I wanted to open it in the gnome help viewer thingy
00:53:46 <ehird> WTF AnMaster? You're ignored, stop appearing on my screen.
00:54:00 <AnMaster> ehird, why am I ignored though
00:54:04 <ehird> wtf you're not in the ignore list any more
00:54:06 <AnMaster> also your ignore must be broken
00:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I haxored your computer of c0urse
00:54:28 <ehird> also, I ignored you because I don't talk to people whose argumentative method is typing in uppercase
00:54:51 <ehird> But yes, man:foo works. apt:foo does too.
00:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it turned out I was right though. I think ais relayed that
00:55:34 * AnMaster considers convincing a user to add a new repo then give him/her apt:malware
00:55:47 <ehird> Or just tell them to type 'sudo apt-get install malware'
00:55:49 <AnMaster> yeah it fails because of the "adding a new repo bit"
00:56:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, I don't care whether you were right; there are plenty of atheists whose argument is "YOU'RE A FUCKEN SHEEP GOD IS NOT REAL BECAUSE YOU'RE A SHEEP"; they're right that god isn't real, but they're still idiots.
00:56:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't remember using upper case
00:56:30 <AnMaster> I'm not going to argue about that any more
00:56:32 <ehird> 16:25:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
00:56:32 <ehird> 16:25:22 <AnMaster> HAPPY NOW?
00:56:50 <AnMaster> suffice to say that xchat works after updating gtkspell to last version
00:57:22 <AnMaster> ehird, meanwhile I finally got around to setting up genera
00:57:35 <oerjan> ehird: NOW STOP BEING SILLY
00:58:02 <AnMaster> ehird, ubuntu in the vm because that was all I could find instructions for _and_ it seemed horribly complex anyway
00:58:04 <ehird> oerjan: YOU'RE A FAGGOT
00:58:20 <AnMaster> ehird, plus I already had the iso downloaded
00:58:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, it's a VM running an emulator for an obscure architecture with old software, hacked so that it claws at various parts of the filesystem.
00:58:45 <ehird> Not exactly… pretty.
00:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, expert mode for install of ubuntu was fun. It was like the worse than LFS + a lot automated:
00:59:39 <AnMaster> Asked after I selected keyboard layout if I had an AltGr key, and if so where
00:59:46 <AnMaster> Didn't ask about what packages to install
00:59:48 <ehird> Ubuntu's expert install is basically Debian's install, which is very similar to Arch's install.
00:59:56 <ehird> AnMaster: because asking for the packages defeats the point
01:00:00 <ehird> the point is the one package, ubuntu-deskto
01:00:14 <ehird> and you never remove it or its dependencies
01:00:14 <ehird> that way the base set of desktop packages are kept in sync
01:00:15 * Sgeo wonders what a deskto\np us
01:00:15 <ehird> so that apps can be added/removed/replaced each version
01:00:22 <ehird> Sgeo: /me wonders what us is.
01:00:28 <ehird> s/deskto\np/desktop/
01:00:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well, not even arch asks if you have an altgr key
01:00:56 * Sgeo wonders what /me is
01:00:57 -!- ehird has changed nick to Bill_Clinton.
01:00:59 <AnMaster> and it asked some other extremely strange things
01:01:05 <Bill_Clinton> It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
01:01:13 <Bill_Clinton> If "is" means is and never has been, that is one thing.
01:01:16 <AnMaster> Bill_Clinton, what is this a reference to?
01:01:20 <Bill_Clinton> If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement.
01:01:32 <Bill_Clinton> AnMaster: Bill Clinton justifying "there's nothing going on between us" wrt Monica Lewinsky.
01:01:51 -!- Bill_Clinton has changed nick to ehird.
01:02:05 -!- Xiin_ has joined.
01:02:20 <ehird> Something like that :P
01:02:37 * Sgeo is not using Windows
01:02:40 <AnMaster> ehird, took several seconds to work THAT one out heh
01:02:51 * Sgeo is not in Second Life
01:02:56 * ehird is not being molested by a bear
01:03:00 * ehird is not drinking petrol
01:03:05 <ehird> ↑ How to know you're living a good life
01:03:07 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I'm using my desktop but with krdc to do remote dekstop. Much better position of monitor
01:03:25 <ehird> You know, I'm not sure you understand the point of laptops :P
01:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But it isn't working 8 hours in front of one
01:03:51 <ehird> Funny how VNC over a fast enough connection will be faster.
01:03:56 <ehird> (than the connecter)
01:03:56 -!- Xiin has quit (Nick collision from services.).
01:03:59 <ehird> (since your laptop is faster)
01:04:01 -!- Xiin_ has changed nick to Xiin.
01:04:23 <AnMaster> also I had to file a bug in ubuntu
01:04:23 * Sgeo is using his laptop at his desk. His desktop is Pentium III, 512MB nVidia RIVA TNT2
01:04:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Heh; link?
01:05:00 <Sgeo> This laptop uses Intel Integrated graphics, but that's still better than TNT2
01:05:03 <ehird> And to think this measly Core 2 Duo 2.16ghz w/ just 2.5GB of RAM and some crappy ATI Radeon card annoys me :-P
01:05:08 <AnMaster> ehird, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/405339
01:05:30 <ehird> It was worth the ~£1,000 in 2006, though.
01:05:54 <ehird> AnMaster: That looks incredibly automated.
01:06:01 <ehird> Or at least copy-paste.
01:06:02 <Sgeo> Um, didn't realize that this laptop was Dual Core or whatever?
01:06:07 <Sgeo> I see 2 processors
01:06:24 <ehird> Sgeo: Well, I doubt you have 2 actual processors in there :P
01:06:34 <ehird> I love being nostalgic about things I never experienced.
01:06:38 <ehird> For instance, dual Pentium 4 boards.
01:06:53 <Sgeo> Processor 0: Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2050 @ 160GHz
01:06:58 <Sgeo> Processor 1: Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2050 @ 160GHz
01:06:59 <pikhq> It also functioned as a space heater.
01:07:12 <ehird> I think my computer lobe fetishises the concept of "workstation".
01:07:28 <Sgeo> I meant 1.60 GHz
01:07:29 <ehird> I think because I remember my dad's Pentium 4 tower, and how the case was taller than other comptuers.
01:07:33 <ehird> It just seems… cool.
01:07:39 <Sgeo> This really isn't a super-secret NSA computer
01:07:42 <ehird> Dual processors! Tall cases! Sun! UltraSPARC!
01:07:52 <ehird> 19" liquid crystal display!
01:08:22 <ehird> I'm also enamoured with old clusters of 80s/90s commodity (i.e. 300mhz) hardware.
01:08:36 <AnMaster> very well I shall make them happy
01:08:43 <AnMaster> since I suspect it quitted not crashed
01:08:51 <ehird> Not quitted; "quat"!
01:08:58 <ehird> Oh man quat, my new favourite word.
01:09:02 <ehird> "Yeah, the application quat on me."
01:09:12 <ehird> AnMaster: (But really — "quit" not "quitted")
01:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, actually it did crash it seems
01:21:40 <AnMaster> ehird, however I doubt most users would have managed to debug this
01:21:45 <AnMaster> I had to attach gdb to a running process
01:22:04 <AnMaster> (and most people probably wouldn't be able to find out how)
01:22:20 <ehird> A lot of — even most, I'd say — Ubuntu users don't even know what the Terminal is for and have never opened it.
01:23:01 <AnMaster> in fact I had to google how. Since I couldn't find it in gdb --help output
01:23:09 <ehird> Pthing: No, very likely.
01:23:14 <ehird> I know at least one.
01:23:26 <ehird> because non-technical people use Ubuntu, too
01:23:30 <AnMaster> Pthing, are you agreeing or disagreeing?
01:23:54 <ehird> I think Pthing's stuck in the "Linux is for übernerds and it's impossible for it to be usable by nontechnical people (who are inherently idiotic)" mindset.
01:23:57 <Pthing> they'll know what it's for
01:24:21 <Pthing> "people aren't idiots and know what the magic black dos window is for, and they've followed instructions to use it at least once"
01:24:38 <AnMaster> Pthing, that is equally outdated
01:24:39 <ehird> I know at least one who doesn't because they've never had to use it.
01:24:50 <Pthing> of how many people who use ubuntu that you know
01:24:54 <ehird> Also, nobody who isn't a geek knows what a DOS prompt looks like is.
01:25:01 <AnMaster> Pthing, I can just look at my dad that doesn't even know what "c:" is for
01:25:06 <Pthing> it's the black dos box
01:25:11 <ehird> Pthing: Uhh, you're an idiot.
01:25:16 <AnMaster> only since he got an usb memory stick he knows what "my computer" is for
01:25:19 <Pthing> lots of people know about the black dos box!
01:25:26 <AnMaster> clearly I wouldn't even recommend him to use ubuntu
01:25:45 <AnMaster> however he is quite good at one thing. Some sort of statistical application called "SPSS"
01:25:50 <Pthing> really, saying that most people have no idea what the magic black thing is
01:25:59 <Pthing> is *way* more "linux is for ubernerds"
01:26:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Everyone I've turned to Ubuntu has resoundingly said it's easier than Windows
01:26:08 <ehird> Pthing: no, it's not
01:26:28 <AnMaster> ehird, he needs SPSS. I doubt it would run under wine. And it is his work that pays for the computer
01:26:31 <Pthing> You're making out like the command line prompt is this amazingly obscure piece of the OS
01:26:36 <ehird> your assertions are beaten by my living counterevidence
01:26:40 <Pthing> and nobody has ever seen anything like it except for ubernerds
01:26:48 <ehird> so I don't even care about arguing about your cognitive biases.
01:26:50 <Pthing> Anybody has used computers for any length of time
01:26:58 <Pthing> will be entirely *aware* of the DOS command line
01:27:02 <Pthing> even if they never used it much
01:27:03 <ehird> welcome to delusionville, population: billions
01:27:15 <AnMaster> actually I think lots of people seen it. But then forgot it again, along with the "do you really want to run this active X control" dialog
01:27:26 <ehird> ooh, ooh, I like this one
01:27:26 <AnMaster> ehird, becuase it pops up during service pack update
01:27:31 <ehird> this is the one where you rebut my arguments by saying i'm young
01:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't recall that
01:27:58 <Pthing> this is relevant, not an ad hominem
01:28:05 <ehird> I'm listening. Skeptically.
01:28:06 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok. Only for like half a second. and that is XP SP3. No idea about vista
01:28:32 <AnMaster> Pthing, the sum of our ages are much greater than your age :P
01:28:34 <Pthing> you ever fucked around with autoexec.bat to get a DOS game working because of the stupid himem requirements?
01:28:39 <AnMaster> and I'm quite close to your age
01:28:49 <ehird> Surprisingly, statistically, NOBODY DOES THAT.
01:28:54 <ehird> Well, actually, I'm not sure I've done that in particular.
01:29:01 <Pthing> People USED to have to do that
01:29:04 <Pthing> in the brief period between
01:29:07 <ehird> Pthing: How many people do you actually know that have used a computer?
01:29:13 <AnMaster> Pthing, lots of people didn't use computers back then
01:29:16 <Pthing> b) windows XP made everything nice
01:29:17 <ehird> Most of them don't know what the fuck Windows is.
01:29:19 <ehird> They think internet is the E.
01:29:25 <ehird> They don't know what a tab is.
01:29:29 <AnMaster> I know people only getting computers a few years ago
01:29:29 <ehird> The only other program is Word.
01:29:35 <ehird> click the shiny ad banner!
01:29:41 <AnMaster> and never using dos under windows 9x
01:29:47 <ehird> Yes, this is condescending; I'm using hyperbole to counter.
01:29:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot outlook express
01:30:10 <ehird> "Everyone who's used a computer for long enough knows about cmd.exe"
01:30:13 <ehird> Simply, truly false.
01:30:24 <Pthing> They don't necessarily *conceptualise* it as cmd.exe
01:30:25 <ehird> AnMaster: What is that? My email is hot mail dot com.
01:30:31 <Pthing> or anything but "the black dos box"
01:30:32 <ehird> Pthing: why would they have ever seen it?
01:30:34 <ehird> they never run programs
01:30:38 <ehird> apart from IE and word
01:30:43 <Pthing> suppose their computer broke, right
01:30:46 <Pthing> so they had to find some nerd
01:30:52 <ehird> Pthing: Hi, this is your uncle
01:30:54 <ehird> Can you fix my computer?
01:31:01 <ehird> I'm back, is it done yet?
01:31:05 <ehird> Okay, that's good. Bye now.
01:31:11 <Pthing> HEY PTHING, WHAT'S THAT BLACK THING
01:31:13 <ehird> Pthing: sorry, i'm already looking away.
01:31:18 <Pthing> I've been asked lots of times
01:31:20 <AnMaster> I know this. because I have been in that position
01:31:20 <Pthing> what the black thing is
01:31:28 <AnMaster> they just sit a bit away and look without seeing
01:31:36 <ehird> i don't fix computers for free any more anyway :P
01:31:50 <AnMaster> and possibly ask something at some point but give up at a highly technical answer
01:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, nor do I any more. Except for parents. Due to still living at home this is tactical
01:32:10 <ehird> anyway, they don't remember the black box
01:32:15 <ehird> it's not nearly important enough for them to remember
01:32:20 <ehird> black box, it's dos, uhhh okay
01:32:30 <Pthing> they have *been exposed to it*
01:32:33 <ehird> what's that black box?
01:32:53 <Pthing> I seriously do think, not being patronising or insulting or anything
01:32:55 <AnMaster> ehird, Pthing: It's like the "do you want to run this active x control" leak!
01:33:02 <Pthing> this is due to the OVERWHELMING GAP OF YEARS BETWEEN US
01:33:05 <ehird> i'm not sure asking an offhand question about a black box and ignoring the answer counts as being exposed
01:33:11 <AnMaster> or "security cert invalid" leak
01:33:18 <Pthing> a lot of people have started using computers since
01:33:27 <AnMaster> Pthing, not such a large gap for me. I'm 19
01:33:32 <ehird> Pthing: 9 years isn't exactly overwhelming.
01:33:42 <Pthing> it is in the magical realm of computers, ehird!
01:33:51 <ehird> "what's that black box?"
01:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: is about silicon.
01:34:33 <AnMaster> ehird, but my point is stuff change fast as a "spin off effect" of that when it comes to computer
01:34:45 <ehird> this is pointless anyway
01:34:45 <Pthing> So it is this reasoning that makes me think you are mostly incorrect in your assertion.
01:34:47 <AnMaster> a 386 couldn't have run a nice UI as xp
01:34:57 <ehird> if I asked a nontechnical ubuntu user what that terminal entry is without clicking on it
01:34:59 <Pthing> to presently be in the same kind of situation that windows computing was in all those years ago
01:35:02 <ehird> they'd give me a blank stare
01:35:04 <AnMaster> ehird, nor would stuff fit on the harddrives from then
01:35:11 <ehird> most ubuntu users never have to use the terminal
01:35:28 <Pthing> In the absence of any actual evidence
01:35:35 <Pthing> all either of us has for that is our gut feeling
01:35:39 <AnMaster> I think you could easily avoid that yes
01:35:40 <ehird> i can only give the anecdotal because i'm not running a fucking study
01:35:45 <Pthing> you have your one guy who doesn't know
01:35:46 <ehird> but it's not a gut feeling
01:35:52 <Pthing> I don't have the one guy
01:35:57 <AnMaster> unless you want to make use of more advanced features
01:36:02 <ehird> even the fucking printer/scanner combo worked without any drivers
01:36:04 <ehird> in xsane of all things
01:36:20 <ehird> xsane isn't exactly the most user-friendly of software
01:36:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I have to install cups of course there
01:36:28 <ehird> in no aspect was it more technical or less user friendly than windows
01:36:35 <Pthing> is probably somewhere in the middle~~
01:36:36 <AnMaster> but point is, cups and hplip are pre-installed
01:36:37 <ehird> and, I posit, in most cases it is MORE
01:36:47 <AnMaster> so I could just hook my printer/scanner up
01:36:56 <ehird> AnMaster: not relevant
01:37:02 <AnMaster> I will now close all terminals on the laptop and try the printer
01:37:20 <ehird> Pthing: i see you're using ubuntu; I believe this is contributing to your bias
01:37:33 <ehird> which means you have to use the terminal and other arcana more
01:37:36 <ehird> to get your technical stuff done
01:37:41 <ehird> thus shifting your general perception of ubuntu
01:37:47 <Pthing> Wouldn't have denied it even if you'd asked, and not VERSION'd me!
01:37:59 <Pthing> however, this psychology game goes both ways
01:38:01 <ehird> versioning requires less cognitive overhead :P
01:38:09 <pikhq> Of course, most of that stuff is stuff you'd use the terminal for on OS X.
01:38:10 <AnMaster> by the way: getting this printer to work under windows was a PITA
01:38:14 <pikhq> And probably couldn't do on Windows.
01:38:17 <Pthing> I ACCUSE YOU OF WARCRIMES
01:38:20 <AnMaster> it works flawlessly under linux
01:38:29 <AnMaster> I can really recommend HP for printers
01:38:32 <Pthing> overcompensating for YOUR OWN technical wizardry
01:38:40 <ehird> Pthing: BUT THE TRUMP CARD:
01:38:41 <AnMaster> and there it popped up a dialog asking me about the printer on ubuntu
01:38:43 <ehird> MY ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE
01:39:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, HP makes good printers and has wonderful Linux support.
01:39:01 <AnMaster> asking me to add it with all stuff except letter/a4 filled out correctly
01:39:10 <AnMaster> THAT is a bit more than gentoo does
01:39:21 <ehird> AnMaster: didn't even ask $user on ubuntu
01:39:21 <AnMaster> there I have to use the cups webadmin thiny for printing
01:39:24 <ehird> it just appeared in the print dialog
01:39:33 <Pthing> Now, I *would* accept your original, weaker assertion
01:39:40 <ehird> AnMaster: nontechnical person human.
01:39:46 <Pthing> that there exist *a lot* of Ubuntu users who don't know or use the terminal
01:39:52 <Pthing> That seems undeniable.
01:40:10 <ehird> Pthing: i think we're agreeing
01:40:14 <Pthing> If only all of those grannies who have nerdy grandsons
01:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it asked user here. But everything except paper format correctly filled out
01:40:25 <AnMaster> ehird, scanning wouldn't require that though
01:40:27 <Pthing> so they can use the internets and post pictures of cats and jesus and knitting and whatever
01:40:46 <pikhq> Pthing: What, exactly, is your point?
01:40:47 <ehird> ubuntu's install process consists of blindly clicking next :P
01:40:50 <ehird> anyway, i gotta go
01:41:01 <Pthing> My point is that although I entirely agree with this, I suspect ehird is INCORRECT AND NEEDS TO GO FOR A NAP
01:41:10 <ehird> we sleep BEFORE SIX AM
01:41:19 <AnMaster> ehird, um, partitioning has a sane default?
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01:41:47 <Pthing> right-wing hate groups, though.
01:42:17 <Pthing> I think I've seen stats for them and they mostly seem to use IE6
01:42:44 <AnMaster> Pthing, anyway I needed to click next 7 times iirc when installing ubuntu... I was *confused* by it because I'm used to stuff like Arch Linux and Gentoo
01:42:56 <AnMaster> I was wondering where on earth package selection was
01:43:00 <Pthing> well man you are having entirely the opposite problem
01:43:44 <AnMaster> Pthing, I wouldn't be *here* if I was the other type of user would I?
01:44:07 <AnMaster> oh and xsane works out of box with no config stuff or installing anything
01:44:12 <AnMaster> nice test page printed by cups
01:44:30 <Pthing> you could have stumbled here looking for like
01:44:38 <Pthing> secrets of the rosicrucian freemasons of mu
01:44:47 <AnMaster> but I have been here for ages about programming
01:44:59 <AnMaster> 2006? 2007? something like that
01:45:25 <AnMaster> fun thing: it was ehird who invited me originally
01:46:53 <Pthing> I stick by what I said, btw
01:47:08 <Pthing> My natural tendency is to think the same
01:47:17 <AnMaster> Pthing, you mean you are stubborn?
01:47:36 <Pthing> But I keep getting surprised - mildly surprised - by bumping into people who know what the command line is on some level
01:47:46 <Pthing> so I keep having to revise this assumption
01:48:05 <Pthing> It's not a particularly *deep* understanding of it
01:48:14 <Pthing> but it's definite recognition
01:48:15 <AnMaster> Pthing, bumping into them where?
01:48:26 <Pthing> Like when I fix their computer
01:48:37 <Pthing> They're about my age, though
01:48:49 <Pthing> because I keep going like
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01:49:06 <Pthing> and then sometimes they ask why I keep making hilarious mistakes
01:49:40 <AnMaster> Pthing, I refuse to touch any windows computer which lacks cygwin
01:49:53 <Pthing> man you are a crazy religious person
01:50:17 <Pthing> i am looking at you now
01:50:22 <Pthing> STONE ALL ADULTERESSES
01:50:34 * AnMaster wonders how to make double clicking on a *.aac play the file under ubuntu
01:50:41 <AnMaster> I get errors about not being able to decode
01:50:48 <AnMaster> and... I don't know about this "totem"
01:51:18 <AnMaster> Pthing, yeah right. I'm an atheist :P
01:51:34 <AnMaster> but I'm not sure about that either
01:53:25 <Pthing> there are codecs available for it somewhere i think
01:53:32 <Pthing> one of the huge packs, poorly hidden
01:53:56 <AnMaster> Pthing, no need for codec since there is libfaad which is open source
01:54:03 <AnMaster> it should just be able to use it
01:59:15 <AnMaster> what is normal temperature for a mobile core2?
01:59:31 <AnMaster> I don't like that it easily hits 62 C without fan spinning up
01:59:43 <AnMaster> in fact fan seems to always be at close to zero
02:00:25 <AnMaster> it is reported by acpi as about 1990-2000 RPM all the time... but I never hear any fan noise at all
02:47:14 <GregorR> http://lonelydino.com/ wooh
02:47:20 <GregorR> Better yet, somebody who is utterly not me will be uploading them :P
02:55:14 <augur_> my blackboard is almost complete!
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03:57:08 <GregorR> http://lonelydino.com/ wooh content
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08:01:39 <oklopol> GregorR: just out of curiosity, what's the difference between not you, and utterly not you? is it nearly as great as between you and not you?
08:21:08 <oklopol> also is that a daily comic
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10:30:20 <ehird> 17:50:17 <Pthing> i am looking at you now
10:30:20 <ehird> 17:50:19 <Pthing> and I am hearing
10:30:21 <ehird> 17:50:22 <Pthing> STONE ALL ADULTERESSES
10:30:21 <ehird> 17:50:29 <Pthing> DON'T EAT SWINEFLESH
10:30:24 <ehird> 17:50:34 * AnMaster wonders how to make double clicking on a *.aac play the file under ubuntu
10:30:30 <ehird> install the codecs from your local package manager
10:30:44 <ehird> 17:53:56 <AnMaster> Pthing, no need for codec since there is libfaad which is open source
10:30:46 <ehird> um that is a codec
10:31:01 <ehird> 17:59:15 <AnMaster> what is normal temperature for a mobile core2?
10:31:01 <ehird> 17:59:31 <AnMaster> I don't like that it easily hits 62 C without fan spinning up
10:31:06 <ehird> send it back send it back!
10:31:30 <AnMaster> it never strays over 63 for more than a second though
10:31:30 <ehird> not necessarily but temperatures >=60 are… not good
10:31:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what does it idle at?
10:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, idle temp? around 30-35
10:32:10 <ehird> AnMaster: tweak your bios fan control settings?
10:32:17 <AnMaster> ehird, will look at that in a bit
10:32:33 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, fingerprint reader is too new to be supported under linux yet
10:32:47 <AnMaster> someone posted an initial trace of it and there is work under way
10:32:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not a major issue for me :P
10:33:33 <ehird> <reddit> This Turtle Has An Awesome Orgasm
10:33:45 <AnMaster> ehird, running windows under virtualbox tends to make it hit 58-61 C on one core and a bit lower on the other core
10:33:55 <AnMaster> in fact, the second core is always slightly warmer than the other one
10:34:20 <AnMaster> I guess one of them is closer to some hot component
10:34:25 <ehird> AnMaster: check the non-core temperature
10:34:50 <AnMaster> ehird, which one? There are like a gazillionplex of temp sensors in this
10:35:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ah overall cpu one... well that one *always* report the same as the hottest core. +/- 1 second update lag.
10:36:26 <ehird> AnMaster: try stressing the two cpus
10:36:39 <ehird> f () { while true; do; done }
10:36:45 <ehird> virtualbox might not max them out
10:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you need something more for bash to accept that:
10:38:00 <ehird> AnMaster: also, "do :"
10:38:03 <ehird> you don't need that ;
10:38:16 <ehird> anyway, just measure what it peaks at.
10:38:52 <AnMaster> fan speed has gone from 1908 > 1988
10:39:09 <ehird> that fan's working hard
10:39:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I still can't hear the fan
10:39:17 <AnMaster> it is the speed reported though
10:39:22 <ehird> AnMaster: if the fan's at 1988rpm, it should be below 58…
10:39:34 <ehird> AnMaster: put your head to it
10:39:37 <ehird> is the fan actually on?
10:39:56 <ehird> might be faulty motor etc
10:40:18 <ehird> although 60 is quite low for a passive core 2 without a good heatsink…
10:40:27 <ehird> though I guess the mobile has an effect, obviously
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10:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well going to check for fan stuff in bios now. If I can't find anything I'm going to try http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed
10:43:10 <ehird> check the fan first physically
10:43:13 <ehird> i don't think it's on
10:43:26 <ehird> AnMaster: the hottest place
10:43:33 <ehird> touch. like with your hands.
10:43:46 <ehird> (not with your lap. unless you want to be infertile.)
10:44:33 <AnMaster> ehird, the hottest place, and probable place for exit air is near where the power cable enter
10:44:41 <ehird> just move your ear around
10:44:43 <ehird> if you hear a fan…
10:44:58 <AnMaster> need to change room, my desktop is a bit noisy in the bg.. brb
10:45:34 <ehird> Idle temperature is typically around 30-50°C.
10:45:34 <ehird> Temperature at full utilisation is around 60-70°C.
10:45:53 <ehird> if you can't hear the fan, worth putting it up a bit
10:46:01 <ehird> (that source is from thinkwiki btw)
10:55:39 * AnMaster just connected to bouncer from laptop
10:55:49 <AnMaster> no away log since desktop was never disconnected
10:56:23 <ehird> nobody said anything
10:56:27 <ehird> AnMaster: did you tweak the temps?
10:56:28 <AnMaster> there is some air flow near the outlet
10:56:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean that fancontrol stuff? No
10:57:02 <ehird> the computer is completely inaudible with your ear right next to it?
10:57:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well with ear next to it there is a very faint sound
10:57:31 <ehird> AnMaster: boot into bios
10:57:36 <ehird> it won't spin the harddrive there
10:57:38 <AnMaster> though harddrive is in the opposite end
10:58:00 <AnMaster> and the noise is different with ear nere hd
10:58:25 <ehird> as i said, eliminate the HD from the equation so you can be sure
10:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, also this room is no longer quiet due to mom deciding to melt butter (it's the kitchen)
10:59:09 <ehird> i'm dissociating that from context and it's funny
10:59:19 <ehird> <mother> *walks in, gets butter*
10:59:26 <ehird> <mother> *melts butter*
10:59:32 <ehird> <mother> *pours melted butter out*
10:59:34 <ehird> <mother> *walks out*
11:00:51 <AnMaster> system monitor in ubuntu reports 100/100 for cpu load
11:00:58 <AnMaster> it doesn't seem to be going higher
11:01:28 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, there might be a fan noise, but it isn't at 1993 rpm
11:01:28 <ehird> AnMaster: go in to the bios and force the fan's lowest speed to the highest it can go and then reboot
11:01:36 <ehird> 1993rpm should really be making noise
11:01:44 <ehird> if 3000rpm doesn't or whatever, it's not running
11:01:52 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe fan speed is misreported
11:02:04 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't see a setting for it in bios... but will look again
11:07:43 <AnMaster> ehird, was in bios but found no setting for it
11:07:55 <ehird> run one of the fan control thingies from thinkwiki then
11:08:02 <ehird> just to boost it up temporarily\
11:09:19 <AnMaster> "To enable fan control, the module parameter fan_control=1 must be given to thinkpad-acpi. "
11:09:26 <ehird> http://www.losethos.com/FBI.html is gone :-(
11:09:49 <ehird> http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:mTVkrnVdYREJ:www.losethos.com/FBI.html+http://www.losethos.com/FBI.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari
11:10:41 <ehird> "I hope God is happy. Are you happy, God? God talks to me. I try to make Him happy. I do comics as offerings and He talks back. You have to hold-up your end of the conversation." — losethos2, 2007-11-19, OSnews
11:10:47 <ehird> Truly irretrievably insane.
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11:15:48 <ehird> WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER
11:15:53 <anm_ub> echo level 7 > /proc/ibm/fan # slowly more and more sound, until it reaches a quite noticable level
11:16:06 <ehird> who wants to tell them first
11:16:23 <anm_ub> module renamed "thinkpad_acpi"
11:16:29 <anm_ub> renaming interface would break stuff
11:16:44 <anm_ub> anyway you are supposed to use /sys nowdays
11:16:58 <ehird> if I could execute a command that punches you every time you try and ruin my jokes, i'd… uhh
11:17:17 <anm_ub> ehird, when at most noise reported speed was 3064 RPM
11:17:30 <anm_ub> and that was quite low noise level compared to my desktop
11:17:49 <anm_ub> where the cpu fan alone is running at around that speed
11:17:58 <anm_ub> then there is the GPU fan and the PSU fan
11:18:08 <anm_ub> not sure about the speeds of them
11:19:02 <anm_ub> ehird, the harddrive seems to make a sound at around the same pitch as a crt monitor when it is seeking btw. But you only hear it with the ear close to
11:19:14 <ehird> pretty sure every HD does.
11:19:42 <anm_ub> ehird, well. my desktop makes a much lower freq sound when seeking
11:21:15 <anm_ub> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed#Using_a_stock_kernel <-- a bit wtf though:
11:21:27 <anm_ub> If you receive a PERMISSION DENIED error you can use the following command syntax instead as a work-around:
11:21:27 <anm_ub> # echo level 0 (fan off)
11:21:36 <anm_ub> like, just outputting to the terminal?
11:21:44 <anm_ub> well, sure no permission denied
11:21:49 <anm_ub> not very useful either!
11:22:02 <anm_ub> wouldn't call it a "workaround" as such
11:24:28 <anm_ub> anyway bbl moving back to usual room
11:24:32 -!- anm_ub has quit ("Leaving").
11:28:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:mTVkrnVdYREJ:www.losethos.com/FBI.html+http://www.losethos.com/FBI.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari <-- huh what is it about
11:28:37 <ehird> see yesterday's logs for explanation; basically he's a totally crazy nutjob that has a really, really crazy operating system
11:28:44 <ehird> and posts on reddit about it
11:28:45 <AnMaster> but I don't understand what about it
11:28:46 <ehird> and is hilariously insane
11:28:50 <ehird> and his OS is hilariously insane
11:29:03 <AnMaster> ehird, it talks about c:\* and such so it runs on top of windows?
11:29:05 <oklopol> is it an os that asks god what the user wants to do so the user doesn't have to do anything
11:29:17 <ehird> AnMaster: the os is a "secondary" one because it's useless as shit
11:29:28 <ehird> AnMaster: from "tongues", anyway, I guess it's basically grabbing random words from the bible
11:29:32 <AnMaster> what the hell is a "secondary OS"
11:29:43 <ehird> some choice reddit posts of his:
11:29:53 <ehird> [[I used to argue with the answerbook.]] // no context whatsoever to this one
11:29:59 <ehird> [[There is no GPL code in LoseThos, it's 100% professional quality.]]
11:30:04 <ehird> when questioned wtf he meant:
11:30:08 <ehird> [[By definition, it's not professional.]]
11:30:18 <ehird> he keeps resubmitting his os with a different title
11:30:27 <ehird> [[I think it's funny -- if you presented God of the old testament to people in disguise, they'd call Him Satan! people have a proud of heart notion of God that they could never sincerely love. Mom said heaven is a never ending family reunion! Be careful what you wish for, though, God told me war was "servicemen competing". Yikes!
11:30:27 <ehird> God says... etexts smell remittest really necessarily died harbouring adorned glided neglecting slumbers list passing AM very recite protect wearied moments Gutenberg preventedst directing
11:30:27 <ehird> I'd like to share a couple hilarious passages from the old Testament, but they're too long. The book of Numbers chapter 11 is hilarious.]]
11:30:39 <ehird> I don't think etexts is in the bible; some other corpus
11:30:50 <ehird> [[Don't be an America hater. Don't reject gifts from God. Little girls are made of sugar and spice... God gives toys, not just cloths on Christmas:]] // ew
11:31:00 <ehird> [[if you guys really care about abortion, why don't you argue from the Bible? There's plenty of stuff to support abortion. At issue is hatred of religion.
11:31:00 <ehird> What's up with feminazi lesbo's who love dead babies? I don't get it? Why do they care so much about making dead babies?
11:31:01 <ehird> Pearls of wisdom: evolution obsessed people are all NAZI's who want to exterminate blacks. Pro-choice women are all lesbo's.]]
11:31:03 <ehird> ↑ that's my favourite
11:31:16 <ehird> he's totally crazy :D
11:31:17 <AnMaster> is he a bible fanatic or hater?
11:31:27 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:31:30 <ehird> he's christian but i don't even know
11:31:54 <ehird> he says he's an "evolutionist" and "believes" in evolution (total fail there already) then goes and compares it to nazism
11:32:03 <ehird> [[Umm... You're not confusing Godtalk with spam, are you? Stare at it a while and you'll begin to comprehend. haven't you read the Bible? interpreting stuff from God is a skill.]]
11:32:21 <ehird> Dear reddit, can you do something about spam?
11:32:22 <ehird> Lately I am seeing a lot of spam on "rising" and "new" sections of proggit. May be signing up on reddit is easier and hence spamming reddit is easier, but reddit needs to do something about it (also folks visiting "rising" and "new" sections should downvote such links)
11:32:31 <ehird> they're talking about your god talk.
11:33:07 <ehird> [[strawman. I think you're full of shit. Straw man is when you pick a silly example of your opponents position and argue with that. Like picking no vaccine, men on dinosaur, religious people to argue against religion.]] // on a post that was merely a story about an ultra-NIH programmer and didn't mention him
11:33:09 <ehird> sensitive sensitive
11:33:23 <ehird> [[Most other "64-bit" operating systems still have 4Gig address maps, I'm pretty sure.]] // no point even bothering to show the rest of the comment
11:33:29 <AnMaster> downside of black laptop compared to white: fingerprints on outside clearly visible as areas of deeper black
11:33:51 <AnMaster> wouldn't be visible on one of those white macbooks
11:33:59 <ehird> [[Try Losethos, http://www.losethos.com for master/slave multicore with no abstraction -- direct control for dividing tasks and specifying which cores to run them on. See http://www.losethos.com/flightsim.html for a video of an 8 core flight simulator video with code.]] // master/slave without abstraction? dude! do you hate lincoln or something?
11:34:08 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but dust shows up very easily on white
11:34:22 <ehird> AnMaster: the plain MacBook is white/black plastic
11:34:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true. easier to brush off
11:34:35 <ehird> the MacBook Pro (Pro now means the design… :\) now has a 13" model
11:34:40 <ehird> the actual MacBook is really just entry level
11:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't there some "whole body" thingy recently...
11:34:51 <ehird> all the pros are unibody (not separate case components, all one thing) aluminium
11:34:54 <ehird> with a glass screen cover
11:35:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that makes changing battery a pain
11:35:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's fine; the battery isn't replaceable by the user anyway.
11:35:39 <ehird> you do have an apple store near you right?
11:35:49 <ehird> AnMaster: uhh, I think so, yes…
11:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that was sarcastic right?
11:36:22 <ehird> AnMaster: note that the new macbook pro batteries are rated for a long time
11:36:30 <AnMaster> ehird, answer: No. About 4 hours away by train assuming trains are on time (they aren't usually)
11:36:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't mean you personally
11:37:06 <ehird> AnMaster: the top-end model (with a 17" 1920x1200 screen, so you know this thing's beefy)'s battery can last up to 8 hours
11:37:09 <ehird> prolly more like 6
11:37:15 <ehird> but when's the battery life
11:37:27 <ehird> i recall hearing it lasts a long time, anyway
11:37:55 <AnMaster> that makes more sense in the context
11:38:26 <ehird> http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook/macbook-unibody-faq/macbook-macbook-pro-unibody-how-to-upgrade-ram.html
11:38:29 <ehird> Have two memory slots that you access by removing the access door, battery, and bottom case. Your MacBook [or MacBook Pro] comes with at least 2 GB (1 GB in each slot) of 1066 MHz Double Date Rate (DDR3) Synchronous Dynamic Random-Access Memory (SDRAM) installed.
11:38:39 <AnMaster> ehird, the fan sure is quiet on this thing though. Compared to the fan on mom's macbook. when it spins up you can definitely hear it
11:38:44 <ehird> that's with like a 2.8ghz core 2 processor and 4gb of ram
11:38:56 <ehird> pretty sweet battery life
11:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, how many cycles is it rated for
11:39:14 <ehird> yah, 17" stock model is 2.8ghz core 2 duo, 4gb ddr3 ram, 500gb hd
11:39:28 <ehird> AnMaster: let's see
11:39:32 <ehird> The lifespan of a battery is measured in recharges. One recharge is a complete charge and discharge of a battery’s energy. A recharge doesn’t necessarily occur every time you plug in your notebook; many partial charges can add up to a single full recharge. The typical battery delivers about 200 to 300 recharges before its capacity declines to approximately 80 percent. At that point the battery still works, but its performance is diminished. Thanks to th
11:39:36 <ehird> http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/battery/
11:39:53 <ehird> e breakthroughs of advanced chemistry and Adaptive Charging, the battery in the 13-, 15-, and 17-inch MacBook Pro can go through up to 1000 recharges before it reaches 80 percent of its original capacity — nearly three times the lifespan of typical notebook batteries.2
11:40:12 <ehird> they also made em flat and stacked and packed them
11:40:16 <ehird> instead of using circular ones
11:40:18 <ehird> which is... "no duh"
11:40:31 <oklopol> 6 hours would almost make it useful for things other than taking it in the crapper or just moving it around with the power cable temporarily off
11:40:32 <AnMaster> ehird, circular? Does any laptop have circular ones?
11:40:38 <ehird> http://images.apple.com/macbookpro/overlays/images/size20090106.jpg
11:40:43 <ehird> apart from these ones
11:41:01 <ehird> oklopol: just get one of those targa netbooks
11:41:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well they look quite square. but I guess the cells inside may be circular
11:41:07 <oklopol> i guess what i mean is 6 hours isn't a complete joke.
11:41:08 <ehird> oklopol: with the screen off they manage ~28 days of battery life iirc
11:41:13 <ehird> AnMaster: duh, that's the whole point
11:41:14 <oklopol> it's just a crappy battery :P
11:41:24 <ehird> oklopol: with it on, prolly like >24hrs
11:41:35 <oklopol> okay, that i could live with
11:41:44 <ehird> oklopol: of course the caveat is that… it's not exactly powerful
11:41:48 <ehird> iirc it's an 800mhz arm
11:41:56 <ehird> the iphone 3g s is a 600mhz arm
11:42:06 <ehird> so you get a laptop that's… faster than a smartphone!
11:42:09 <oklopol> 800mhz is about 800 times more than i need
11:42:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> the iphone 3g s is a 600mhz arm <-- insane for a phone
11:42:35 <ehird> AnMaster: that's good because it's not a phone
11:42:38 <ehird> and no, ARM runs really cool
11:42:40 <ehird> not even a heatsink
11:42:41 <oklopol> i could do with my calculator if it had a nicer keyboard and a better programming environment
11:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, only f00lz buy the iphone because it's a phone
11:42:54 <AnMaster> ehird, why are they so cool compared to intel or such
11:42:57 <oklopol> and if it compiled its basic
11:43:06 <ehird> AnMaster: because x86 is fucking terrible, and ARM is an embedded RISC
11:43:27 <fizzie> That's not "insane for a phone" if you define insanity from what other people do; they're already using the 1 GHz Snapdragon in phones, I think. Or at least it's going to be used in phone models that are already announced, anyway.
11:43:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I guess the instruction set affects it a lot
11:43:29 <ehird> anyway, the phone contract is just a vehicle because sometimes phonecalls and texts are kinda nice to have and because it gets you wireless internet
11:43:34 <ehird> and to get it distributed
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11:43:44 <ehird> smartphones are for the smart part
11:43:58 <AnMaster> ehird, so why aren't there laptops with high performance arm cpus
11:44:01 <ehird> kinda nice to be able to do shit without, you know, taking off your bag, opening it
11:44:04 <ehird> getting a laptop out
11:44:07 <ehird> and putting it all back
11:44:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Windows doesn't run on ARM.
11:44:32 <ehird> Also, I'm fairly sure ARM isn't quite as awesome at the higher speeds and the like.
11:44:37 <ehird> AnMaster: …is a mobile operating system.
11:44:50 <fizzie> There are ARM-based tablet PCs, though. That's almost a laptop, but not quite.
11:45:17 * Sgeo watches Firefox take a long time to load
11:45:22 <Sgeo> Guess which OS I'm on today!
11:45:35 <ehird> Sgeo: the didn't upgrade to firefox 3.5.1 because you're a fucking dumbass OS?
11:45:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba_TG01 ;; this phone looks like a terrible waste of a 1ghz cpu
11:45:51 <Sgeo> I did upgrade to 3.5.1
11:45:54 <fizzie> Actually I guess there were at least plans for "netbook"-form-factor ARM laptops.
11:45:58 <Sgeo> It still takes a long time
11:46:03 <ehird> Sgeo: then your computer is just really slow.
11:46:13 <ehird> fizzie: yeah they exist i'm sure
11:46:16 <ehird> also that targa thign ofc
11:46:32 <ehird> ahh, this is still my favourite thing ever:
11:46:36 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kgvj/losethos_64bit_operating_system_v506_released_not/c09kmnw
11:46:36 <oklopol> firefox takes long to load, a page does, or a firefox installer you're dl'ing?
11:46:38 * Sgeo opens Chrome in the meantime
11:46:38 <ehird> darwin is part of linux
11:46:41 <ehird> it's konquer not konqueror
11:46:45 <ehird> those have something to do with nazism
11:46:54 <ehird> people who think evolution is true want to kill of dumb people
11:46:57 <fizzie> "In June 2009 Qualcomm showed off an ASUS Eee PC using the Snapdragon processor and running Google's Android. [5] At the same event, ASUS also showed a Snapdragon-based device, then withdrew it abruptly. Rumors attribute the withdrawal to pressure exerted by Microsoft. [6] [7]" Heh.
11:46:59 <ehird> …he is an evolutionist
11:47:02 <ehird> atheist operating systems!
11:47:11 <ehird> in fact there isn't more than a few words that aren't hilarious.
11:47:19 <ehird> oklopol: firefox takes long to load, I gathered
11:47:41 <oklopol> ehird: just making sure, because while that's what it means, that's the one i can't imagine happening.
11:47:50 <ehird> oklopol: he has a pentium iii or something
11:47:58 <ehird> hey guys, anyone want to donate an Itanium to me
11:47:59 <Sgeo> ...He's saying that Linux is an atheist OS to promote his own OS?
11:48:02 <ehird> i love crazy processors!
11:48:05 <ehird> Sgeo: no, he's just rambling
11:48:07 <ehird> because he's fucking insane.
11:48:26 <Sgeo> "LoseThos has a bible theme. It has a special kernel task called "Adam", father of all tasks"
11:48:34 <ehird> this is a guy who picks random words from a corpus and posts them to reddit along with attached "questions" to god
11:48:37 <ehird> and calls it "godspeak"
11:48:56 <ehird> there's a word for these people and it's called schizophrenia. or something else.
11:48:59 <ehird> some mental illness anyway.
11:49:04 <ehird> (↑ not the punchiest sentence ever)
11:49:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> darwin is part of linux <-- ?
11:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kgvj/losethos_64bit_operating_system_v506_released_not/c09kmnw
11:49:21 <ehird> plz2b comprehending context
11:49:21 <oklopol> does the name mean like loseth OS, as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd... loseth
11:49:39 <oklopol> like there are so many oses it's stupid to make another one
11:49:47 <oklopol> that's how i interpreted it
11:49:49 <ehird> http://www.losethos.com/images/Header.JPG
11:49:55 <ehird> he capitalises it LoseThos
11:50:15 <ehird> I pronounce it mentally as "LosseyThos"
11:50:16 <oklopol> or something to do with lesotho, but not sure what that could be
11:50:23 <ehird> because "Lose Thos" makes no fucking sense
11:50:27 <ehird> so my brain corrects it for me
11:50:28 * AnMaster considers mixing all the nutjobs
11:50:58 <ehird> AnMaster: that's been done. i think by a guy called abdul something. abdul alhazred.
11:51:03 <ehird> the mad arab, they called him
11:51:05 <Sgeo> He may be insane, but that image is kind of cool
11:51:14 <ehird> Sgeo: …that image is cool?
11:51:17 <ehird> well gee he can type a few letters
11:51:22 <ehird> and extend the tendrils of some
11:51:26 <ehird> he's a freakin' genious
11:51:35 <Sgeo> I didn't say it was awesome
11:52:13 <ehird> i wanna buy one of the bacon-fragranced reddit alien soaps
11:52:18 <ehird> i hope they taste like bacon too!
11:52:26 <ehird> [[Yes, our soaps are Vegan.]]
11:52:32 <ehird> it's not real bacon fragrance :(
11:52:55 <Sgeo> It's a no brainer that the main thing keeping people from using LoseThos is the graphics
11:53:31 <ehird> Sgeo: listen to the demo video on the main page
11:53:44 <Sgeo> http://www.losethos.com/memory.html don't use it for anything requiring security. I guess it sounds fun, but not as a main OS
11:54:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder why desktops are so much louder than laptops... It should be possible to make them about the same noise level. Sure they are generally faster. But they are not as cramped inside either, so easier to allow air to move.
11:55:07 <Sgeo> " I can delete the Bible
11:55:07 <Sgeo> and cut the install size, too"
11:55:13 <Sgeo> There's a built-in Bible?
11:55:35 <Sgeo> Or is that referring to something else? (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DEAR GOD)
11:55:43 <oklopol> okay, losethos sounds great
11:56:56 <Sgeo> "I capitalized the libraries. They're not standard"
11:57:08 <Sgeo> It was sounding interesting until right about then
11:57:53 <oklopol> capitalized the libraries?
11:58:17 <Sgeo> oklopol, watch the video
11:59:23 <ehird> Sgeo: it has a built in bible yeah
11:59:34 <ehird> Sgeo: anyway it's not interesting
11:59:37 <ehird> he didn't want to buffer the screen
11:59:42 <ehird> so it's just 640x480x4
11:59:48 <ehird> but it only works on 64 bit!
11:59:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you are good at fonts. Name a good serif font. That is available for TeX
11:59:52 <ehird> he says he has 12GB of RAM!
12:00:00 <ehird> AnMaster: for screen or print
12:00:17 <Sgeo> ehird, I know next-to-nothing about graphics programming
12:00:24 <ehird> AnMaster: why not computer modern :-P
12:00:36 <Sgeo> So I think things like that are understandable.. although maybe asking for advice would have been helpful for him
12:00:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a bit awkward on screen in pdfs at least
12:00:40 <ehird> Sgeo: basically, he could have added about 30 lines and supported 1920x1200x32
12:00:52 <ehird> AnMaster: metafont is very not bitmapped
12:00:53 <AnMaster> so rendered to pre-pared bitmapped ones
12:01:11 <ehird> AnMaster: so you're using xetex then?
12:01:28 <AnMaster> ehird, that or pdftex. Depends on which is easiest
12:01:35 <ehird> pdftex… uses metafont.
12:01:45 <ehird> AnMaster: just 'sudo apt-get install texlive' and you have xetex
12:01:48 <Sgeo> 'It's pretty dumb to have characters signed, so I made them unsigned" If you're going to be changing the language like this, can you add automatic buffer overflow checking? kthx
12:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm probably going for xetex though
12:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have the requirement of it being free-as-in-richard-m-stallman?
12:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be *preferred* but I'm willing to go for a bit more closed if I have to
12:03:06 <ehird> AnMaster: if that is your actual restriction, you get to choose between bistream/deja or liberation.
12:03:07 <Sgeo> "I made another syntax change" Please, for the love of all that is C(?:\+\+)?, stop
12:03:09 <ehird> ((they both suck))
12:03:20 <ehird> for legally-free-as-in-beer, I may have something
12:03:24 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems helvetica is available for tex already
12:03:29 <AnMaster> at least lyx claims it is installe
12:03:35 <ehird> AnMaster: probably bitmap
12:03:37 <ehird> which is worthless
12:03:38 <AnMaster> but that is sans-serif of course
12:03:53 <ehird> x11 ships with bitmap helvetica
12:04:13 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how to install a font for use with xetex though. I used pdftex before and I always used distro package manger to handle tex
12:04:28 <Sgeo> "Everything runs in kernel-mode" Ok for a system where security doesn't matter at all, I guess
12:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: for free-as-in-beer your options are still very limited as the free font landscape essentially consists of all the stupid novelty fonts on crappy sites with a bunch of popups
12:05:02 <ehird> exljbris appears to have released a font this year designed for text!
12:05:03 <ehird> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html
12:05:06 <ehird> his fonts are truly graet
12:05:06 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> "Everything runs in kernel-mode" Ok for a system where security doesn't matter at all, I guess <-- google: Inferno OS
12:05:15 <AnMaster> if it mentions plan9 you hit the right place
12:05:23 <ehird> AnMaster: ugh, sorry
12:05:26 <ehird> Calluna comes in 8 fonts: Light, Regular, Regular+Italic, Semibold+Italic,Bold+Italic and Black.
12:05:26 <ehird> The regular is absolutely free.
12:05:26 <ehird> Download Calluna at MyFonts.com
12:05:40 <ehird> AnMaster: total is $119 :(
12:05:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what about OS X ones then
12:06:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you have some and are willing to share
12:06:14 <ehird> AnMaster: i was assuming this was under the proviso of legal?
12:06:25 <ehird> might be legal for you
12:06:33 <ehird> sweden's wacky liberal copyright laws and all
12:07:27 <AnMaster> ehird, sadly that is a myth. They are rather strict. Most don't care. Same as everywhere except we got a political party against them too
12:07:45 <ehird> yeah i guess that died out with the pirate bay trial
12:08:07 <ehird> lemme check font book
12:10:52 <AnMaster> ehird, find some good serifs and sans serifs, both for printing and for screen
12:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe in your ability in this area!
12:11:44 <ehird> you realise I'm quite an amateur and have, in fact, never placed any text to an inked page :D
12:11:56 <ehird> well i mean i've printed stuff
12:11:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't know anyone that is more pro
12:11:58 <ehird> but that was Before
12:12:04 <ehird> also that's not comparable to printing a book
12:12:27 <ehird> AnMaster: the non-FOSS serif text fonts I have are: Baskerville, Big Caslon, Cochin, Didot, …I'd say Georgia but don't go there…, Hoefler Text (<3 this one), I'll omit the asian ones…, Times (I will kill you in your sleep), Times New Roman (moreso), Zapfino (lawl) and Apple Chancery (also lawl)
12:12:48 <ehird> hoefler text is very nice
12:12:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it's like verdana
12:13:11 <ehird> would look bad on paper even if it doesn't on screen anyway
12:13:22 <Sgeo> "It can not properly be edited with
12:13:22 <Sgeo> other editors, even, because there are graphics and links in source code. "
12:13:33 <ehird> Sgeo: i'm all for non-textual source code, mind
12:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster: heh "Hoefler Text is used on the Wikipedia logo."
12:13:39 <Sgeo> Hm, how did he start out making it, before the OS came into existance?
12:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, is the diff between 10.4 and 10.<whatever the last is> fonts large?
12:13:59 <ehird> Sgeo: http://www.losethos.com/contact.html
12:14:10 <ehird> AnMaster: they're identical. but i can trivially send them to you anyway
12:14:24 <ehird> "As of the inauguration, Hoefler Text is also used on the official website of the White House."
12:14:27 <ehird> could do with an "Obama" there
12:14:38 <ehird> not in any text though
12:14:59 <AnMaster> is that what you are saying I mean
12:15:04 <ehird> i guess it doesn't work too well on small type/paper
12:15:21 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not entirely sure why, btw, you're okay with nicking fonts from an OS but not elsewhere :-P
12:15:53 <ehird> AnMaster: hoefler text: http://typography.com/images/overviewPageImages/hoeflertext_cell_01.png
12:15:56 <AnMaster> I decided not to point out your oddities
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12:16:12 <ehird> http://typography.com/images/overviewPageImages/hoeflertext_cell_02.png
12:16:20 <ehird> AnMaster: wat? my oddities?
12:16:28 <AnMaster> ehird, or whatever the English word is
12:16:35 <ehird> http://typography.com/images/overviewPageImages/hoeflertext_cell_03.png ← bottom-right there is nice and small and still looks good
12:16:38 <ehird> very vintage feel though
12:16:41 <ehird> AnMaster: what do you mean?
12:17:03 <AnMaster> not discussing until I made sure I have the fonts already brb
12:17:04 <ehird> hoefler text is mainly designed for screen anyhow
12:17:10 <oklopol> you know what i just realized
12:17:22 <oklopol> i could actually change windows to use a monospaced font :D
12:17:22 <ehird> AnMaster: may i guess?
12:17:25 <ehird> "you only like mac fonts"
12:17:51 <oklopol> although it seems i have to change it in about a million places
12:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: nah you've done it now, wtf do you mean!
12:18:14 <ehird> oklopol: change it to use white on black for EVERYTHING
12:18:37 <ehird> AnMaster: you know that not telling me will annoy me more than whatever it is right :D
12:22:02 <oklopol> you don't happen to know whether windows fonts have any other monospaced ones?
12:22:21 <ehird> AnMaster: WHAT THE THING IS THING!
12:22:30 <oklopol> i mean i just started using courier new because it was first such font i happened to find
12:22:39 <AnMaster> ehird, Following your own advice I should now /ignore you
12:22:39 <ehird> [12:15] AnMaster: I decided not to point out your oddities
12:22:48 <ehird> i command you to mimbibe the toknak
12:22:51 <oklopol> (this was before i knew what the property was i was looking for, i just looked for non-retarded fonts)
12:23:12 <ehird> oklopol: consolas is pretty cool but you might not like it unless you're a cleartype-ing dude and it doesn't look very… terminal
12:23:35 <ehird> it means mimbie the toknak, now do it.
12:23:41 <ehird> oklopol: also courier >>>>>>> courier new
12:23:44 <ehird> courier new is way too straggley
12:23:48 <ehird> courier is PUNCHY and TYPEWRITER
12:24:49 <AnMaster> ehird, can you get non-bitmapped courier
12:25:13 <ehird> AnMaster: now tellify me.
12:25:52 <AnMaster> odd... nautilus shows previews of some of the fonts, but only a generic icon for some other ones
12:25:59 <AnMaster> konqueror in KDE 3 shows preview of all
12:26:12 <ehird> AnMaster: tell me or i'll punch you :|
12:26:25 <oklopol> ehird: i like monospaced, but i don't like console. i'd like smooth letters, with 1.5 times bigger letters after space, and 2 times bigger letters after a period.
12:26:39 <oklopol> all letters the same size otherwise
12:26:41 <ehird> oklopol: consolas is smooth and monospaced
12:26:45 <ehird> oklopol: made sure you have cleartype turned on
12:26:47 <AnMaster> (the last one is made up, I think all the other ones exist)
12:27:02 <ehird> oklopol: wait you have vista don't you
12:27:12 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, exactly
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12:27:24 <ehird> oklopol: cleartype's default in vista i think but
12:27:35 <ehird> oklopol: control panel → appearance
12:27:42 <ehird> → effects → make sure the smooth thing is cleartype
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12:27:44 <oklopol> ehird: in consolas, at least on the first attempt, the letters don't look very uniform in thickness.
12:27:45 <AnMaster> once I found where to install fonts in gnome: yes
12:27:51 <ehird> oklopol: probably no cleartype
12:27:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you drag it to the fonts folder.
12:28:08 <Asztal> yes, without cleartype, Consolas is disgusting
12:28:12 <ehird> AnMaster: dunno, I just use fonts://
12:28:27 <AnMaster> where is the place you enter path in nautilus
12:28:32 <AnMaster> it seems to be missing an adress bar
12:28:45 <ehird> that's a feature :P
12:28:57 <ehird> oklopol: anyhow if you have cleartype on consolas should pretty much fit the bill
12:28:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it says fonts:/// is invalid
12:29:06 <ehird> AnMaster: how are you doing it anyway
12:29:18 <ehird> font installation in gnome could be better tbh
12:29:43 <ehird> oklopol: here's what consolas should look like:
12:30:09 <oklopol> ehird: okay i switched to high contrast black, damn this is hardcore :D
12:30:11 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/WindowsLiveWriter/Insearchoftheperfectmonospacedprogrammer_148A9/consolas%5B4%5D.png or http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Consolas-cleartype.png or http://blog.hamstu.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/typoofcode_consolas.png
12:30:21 <ehird> the form...ost one being the best looking
12:30:31 <ehird> amusing that consolasa is very… unconsole
12:30:38 <ehird> oklopol: that has some non-black stuff iirc!
12:30:42 <ehird> make sure it's all either #000 or #FFF!
12:30:46 <ehird> usability be damned!
12:31:00 <oklopol> also i haven't switched the fonts yet
12:31:07 <ehird> oklopol: anyhow does that consolas look good?
12:31:23 <ehird> if it does and it doesn't look like that on your machine, you gotsa turn cleartype on
12:31:30 <oklopol> actually it does, very much so
12:32:04 <ehird> on your machine or?
12:32:07 <ehird> that sentence is the vague
12:32:27 <oklopol> no sorry in your link (first one).
12:32:49 <ehird> [12:27] ehird: oklopol: control panel → appearance
12:32:49 <ehird> [12:27] ehird: → effects → make sure the smooth thing is cleartype
12:32:57 <ehird> in case it looks rather less gooderific in windows
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12:34:03 <oklopol> cleartype isn't where you said it'd be
12:34:27 <oklopol> right there's a search feature...
12:34:36 <ehird> oklopol: you don't want "tune cleartype"
12:34:39 <ais523> is the topic set as it is to annoy augur?
12:34:40 <ehird> just actually turning it on
12:35:00 <ais523> he removed the last one because of all the special characters
12:35:01 <ehird> oklopol: was it on or is it just on now?
12:35:06 <ehird> ais523: no, because it was right-to-left
12:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fonts#Manually
12:36:03 <oklopol> ehird: also it was exactly where you said it would be.
12:36:15 <ehird> oklopol: i eagerly look forward to this #000 and #FFF and Consolas only nightmare
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12:41:16 <oklopol> but really i'd like to redesign the whole gui
12:41:34 <oklopol> to consist of mostly antialiased lines.
12:42:07 <ehird> oklopol: did you set all the colours to either #000 or #FFF
12:42:13 <ehird> with #FFF being strictly foreground and #000 being strictly background
12:42:23 <oklopol> it would tell everyone who sees my computer i'm not just a geek, i'm a fucking nutjob
12:42:34 <ehird> tell me you did :(
12:42:53 <oklopol> it would change this thing very little
12:43:07 <ehird> oklopol: yes but you'll be 10% more awesome
12:43:11 <ehird> i have discovered this with science
12:43:11 <oklopol> i mean most colors are just because there are so many little icons around
12:43:13 <ehird> in fact i'm going to do it
12:43:15 <ehird> in my windows 7 vm
12:43:17 <ehird> oklopol: well icons are okay
12:43:21 <ehird> i mean the stuff in the appearance prefs
12:43:27 <ehird> i bet the title bar is white-background, for instance
12:43:33 <oklopol> and also massive icons, they are the default for the theme it seems
12:43:33 <ehird> oklopol: anyway i'm gonna race you with my windows vm
12:43:37 <ehird> you'd better do it if you want to WIN
12:43:49 <ehird> it's for visual disabled acuity peeps
12:43:52 <ehird> you know, like blindtarded
12:44:11 <oklopol> by weird i didn't mean it's actually weird
12:44:19 <ehird> haha i'm gonna call people with uncontrollable disabilities thing-tarded from now
12:44:22 <ehird> "you're cancertarded"
12:44:30 <oklopol> more like expressing an opinion, not that i know what that opinion was.
12:44:38 <oklopol> maybe that this should be the default for people who aren't idiots.
12:44:40 <ais523> oklopol: using a black and white theme?
12:44:42 <ehird> "oh yeah? well what about you? you used to be braintumortarded"
12:44:51 <ehird> ais523: #FFF on #000 with the only font being the monospaced Consolsa
12:45:04 <ehird> although not totally #000 background #FFF foreground, thus why i'm racing him with my vm
12:45:06 <ehird> (to make him do it)
12:45:14 <ehird> oklopol: you should buy a 1-bit display
12:45:21 <ais523> ehird: I think it's a good idea
12:45:32 <ehird> ais523: kinda bad for usability :D
12:45:35 <ehird> oklopol: like the kinda stuff they use in calculators
12:45:55 <ais523> ehird: grey on black is pretty easy on the eyes
12:45:58 <ais523> in terms of not being very bright
12:46:04 <ehird> ais523: that's not the point
12:46:10 <oklopol> and where the fuck can i find some kinda folder options to change the folder icons..?
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12:46:12 <ehird> #FFF on #000 for _everything_ removes visual hints
12:46:19 <ehird> which makes it slower to use
12:46:23 <ehird> and monospaced fonts are slower to read than proportional
12:46:26 <ehird> but oklopol isn't human
12:46:28 <ais523> ehird: more peaceful, though
12:46:35 <ais523> I mean, OK it obviously isn't the fastest theme to use
12:46:45 <ais523> but it would be nicer, in a way
12:46:46 <ehird> ais523: it is possible to have a theme with visual hints without having it use primary colours
12:46:50 <ehird> see for example plan 9
12:46:52 <ais523> for instance, I'm much faster with a keyboard than with a mouse
12:47:07 <ais523> but sometimes I like to use a computer just with a mouse, so I don't have to get in reach of the keyboard
12:47:11 <ehird> your brain says you're faster, subjectively
12:47:12 <ehird> the stopwatch doesn't
12:47:14 <oklopol> if you want a fast interface, use a console :|
12:47:22 <oklopol> i only care about pretty look.
12:47:23 <ehird> and no, i won't link to the studies yet again, i'm busy retheming windows
12:47:25 <ais523> ehird: having to find and attach a mouse is generally slower than just typing
12:47:43 <ais523> I'm pretty sure those studies assume a usable mouse
12:47:45 <ehird> "mice are bad because I have to find one and attach one"
12:47:55 <ehird> "mice that i have to find and attach are bad because i have to find one and attach one"
12:47:58 <ais523> what I mean is "for /me/, a keyboard is faster than a mouse"
12:48:04 <ehird> ais523: for YOU, on THAT COMPUTER
12:48:10 <ehird> it's a very important distinction
12:48:11 <ais523> this is the point I'm getting at
12:48:28 <ehird> it essentially amounts to "why doesn't your thing work well on my broken computer"
12:48:30 <ais523> it's the same problem you make with AnMaster, you keep giving him advice that's correct in general but incorrect with respect to him
12:48:36 <ehird> would you replace your computer if half the keys didn't work?
12:48:44 <ais523> ehird: 2 of the keys don't
12:48:51 <ehird> ok, you're just crazy then\
12:48:56 <ais523> but they're stop and skip to next track
12:49:02 <ais523> neither of which is particularly vital
12:49:05 <AnMaster> in general a keyboard is faster than a mouse. For most stuff.
12:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: please don't make me stab you
12:49:26 <ais523> I reprogrammed the skip to previous track button to skip to the next track, in order to have the feature available
12:49:38 <ehird> THE HUMAN MIND THINKS THE KEYBOARD IS SUBJECTIVELY FASTER! IT IS AN _ILLUSION_! for pointing purposes, the mouse is _faster_
12:49:43 <ehird> and a _lot_ of things are faster as pointing tasks
12:49:51 <ais523> ehird: ooh, another point; I'm pretty sure a mouse can only be faster than a keyboard if you're looking at the screen
12:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, "most stuff". I didn't say using gimp would be faster without a mouse
12:50:10 <ehird> ais523: haha, you're funny, can't touch type?
12:50:17 <ais523> ehird: I can touch type
12:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: that's greatly underestimating how much is better with a mouse
12:50:19 <ais523> but I can't touch click
12:50:25 <ehird> for example, the acme editor is almost entirely mouse based
12:50:47 <ehird> ais523: touch typing is used for typing while looking at the screen, mostly
12:50:49 <oklopol> ehird: like what? not saying you're not correct, just interested in what you had in mind.
12:50:52 <ehird> anyway, nobody makes decisions when loking away
12:50:58 <ehird> you don't close buffer or save file while looking at someone
12:51:00 <ehird> because your attention is reduced
12:51:02 <oklopol> what's faster with pointing
12:51:06 <AnMaster> ehird, what about typing in a name from a paper?
12:51:07 <ais523> incidentally, this is why KDE and the Mac have actions when putting the mouse at corners/edges
12:51:13 <ais523> precisely because you can move the mouse there without looking
12:51:15 <ehird> oklopol: most things but typing
12:51:21 <ehird> AnMaster: gee, typing is faster with a keyboard?
12:51:31 <ehird> ais523: yes, this is accounted for in most of the theories
12:51:35 <ais523> ehird: what about playing NetHack?
12:51:35 <AnMaster> ehird, .. I meant: isn't that touch typing
12:51:38 <ehird> when you have something that hits the boundary,
12:51:42 <ehird> it's infinitely high/wide
12:51:46 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out where the boundary is atm
12:51:47 <ehird> thus it's infinitely easy to point at
12:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc *you* told me that it wasn't touch typing if you looked at the screen a few weeks ago...
12:51:58 <ehird> ais523: nethack is a pretty bad ui in general, but for its UI keyboard is prolly better
12:52:05 <ehird> but it's mainly fun because of the bad ui
12:52:12 <ehird> AnMaster: if you have to look at the screen
12:52:13 <ais523> incidentally, all known mouse-based UIs for NetHack are insanely awful, but I think that's an accident of history rather than anything universal
12:52:14 <oklopol> ehird: i mostly just point at folders or files to open them, that's a lot faster with a console
12:52:18 <ehird> but you just type while your concentration is distracted
12:52:25 <ehird> you wouldn't remove a directory while looking at something else
12:52:28 <ehird> because you're thinking less about it
12:52:37 <ehird> anyway I'm not interested in this argument
12:52:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well.. lets say I'm typing something in from a paper. Thus looking at the paper instead
12:52:55 <oklopol> also for web surfing, but that's a fundamentally broken system anyway :P
12:52:57 <ehird> i've had it many times, no matter how much i argue or point people at studies they never change their mind, so, rather pointless
12:53:01 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you understand me
12:53:03 <ehird> THAT IS TYPING WORDS
12:53:07 <ehird> not taking actions
12:53:24 <ehird> we're not talking about this any more
12:53:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm talking about: "<ehird> ais523: touch typing is used for typing while looking at the screen, mostly" <-- you claimed that not needing to look at screen OR keyboard was touch typing a few weeks ago
12:54:02 <oklopol> could you just tell me a specific task that's faster with a pointer that's not web surfing?
12:54:03 -!- Asztal has joined.
12:54:15 <oklopol> just interested to know what "most" means
12:54:16 <ehird> remember when I said we're done?
12:54:17 <ais523> I suppose some people spend a lot more time typing words /than/ taking actions
12:54:19 <oklopol> AnMaster: that's not about pointing
12:54:24 <ehird> that means _i am not talking about it any more_
12:54:26 <AnMaster> ehird, remember what I said about your oddities
12:54:29 <ehird> let's talk about intercal
12:54:32 <ais523> hmm... much the same way that some vi users spend all their time in insert mode
12:54:46 <ehird> AnMaster: being tired of talking about bullshit that we've talked about so many times, rehashing the same thing and never getting anywhere?
12:54:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, you point in the image to where you want to edit it?
12:54:53 <ehird> well i must be fucking insane not to want to do that!
12:55:13 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. Not exactly that one
12:55:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not pointing in the sense that clicking on folders is about pointing; clearly anything where you need to draw any kind of lines or regions is better with something that can do that
12:55:29 <ehird> you know I don't care right?
12:55:40 <Asztal> SliceHost sure do delete accounts quickly :(
12:55:49 <AnMaster> "being irritated when you are "loosing" a discussion and refusing to continue discussion, claiming you don't care"
12:56:01 <oklopol> but pointing, telling the computer which object you want to look at, is faster with a keyboard, when it comes to browsing folders
12:56:05 <Asztal> I was hoping the DNS servers might serve things for a little more than 3 seconds after I closed the account, oh well
12:56:13 <oklopol> just interested in where it's not
12:56:17 <ehird> oklopol: wow if you set 3d objects to black
12:56:21 <AnMaster> oklopol: fill(23,54,95,23); :P
12:56:27 <ehird> oklopol: the minimize/maximize/close buttons' text becomes black
12:56:32 <ehird> so you have to know where they are
12:56:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah that doesn't work at all
12:57:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, well... it works. Just extremely irritating interface
12:57:02 <ehird> [12:55] AnMaster: "being irritated when you are "loosing" a discussion and refusing to continue discussion, claiming you don't care"
12:57:02 <ehird> [12:55] AnMaster: that one
12:57:03 <ehird> then may i point out your oddity, namely not listening to my past fucking 10 or so lines while trying to insult me?
12:57:07 <oklopol> kinda like browsing folders by memorizing where you need to click and saying "i wanna open folder that's rendered at location (x,y)"
12:57:13 <ehird> and now i am-not-discussing-it-more
12:57:47 <AnMaster> ehird, this is supporting my theory :) thanks
12:58:03 <ehird> what a stupid, stupid person.
12:59:06 <oklopol> ehird: i'm not saying you are ever wrong, but you definitely suck at having arguments, kinda like arguing with god, he's just right, shut up already.
12:59:12 <Sgeo> Is it a bad idea to reply to people 2 years after they comment?
12:59:19 <ehird> oklopol: i don't rague with idiots, as a general rule
13:00:42 <oklopol> ehird: i don't think you only do that with idiots.
13:00:51 <ehird> most people are idiots though.
13:01:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:01:26 <oklopol> maybe only when people know less than you about the matter, and aren't being perfectly rational, but idiocy is not required.
13:01:41 <ehird> that's how i define idiocy tho :P
13:01:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:01:57 <oklopol> you do realize you do it yourself, a lot, too?
13:02:04 <ehird> that's cuz i'm an idiot
13:02:22 <oklopol> well right, i guess this is settled :P
13:02:32 <oklopol> still wondering what tasks you meant in particular though :P
13:02:38 <oklopol> but i guess i can keep wondering
13:02:42 <ehird> like, doing your mom
13:03:24 <oklopol> that requires both poking with the mouse and pressing buttons
13:04:16 <ehird> by changing my windows theme
13:04:21 <ehird> all webpages now have a black background
13:04:27 <oerjan> <oklopol> you do realize you do it yourself, a lot, too? <-- damn synchronicity
13:04:49 <ehird> oklopol: dude, _all_ _web_ _pages_
13:04:53 <ehird> even those that specify their own background
13:05:00 <ehird> they're all white on black
13:05:03 <ehird> how can you resist man
13:05:05 <oklopol> i'll be looking forward to that
13:05:11 <oerjan> i was _just_ grumbling over what a stubborn prick my dad is, because of an email he sent :/
13:05:24 <oerjan> *brick, i swear i meant to write
13:05:44 <ehird> oklopol: link to what
13:06:10 <oklopol> tbh i wasn't actually expecting you'd link it.
13:06:32 <oerjan> i don't want to be _that_ big a prick
13:06:37 <oklopol> oerjan: was your point that you're a stubborn cock too?
13:07:12 <oklopol> that's not your most salient feature on irc, if it's any consolation
13:07:44 <oerjan> thank you :) *er, what*
13:08:06 <oerjan> i would imagine that would be inane puns
13:08:11 <ehird> oklopol: as soon as i fix this pesky "a bunch of the text is black on black" problem i shall release this theme
13:08:13 <ehird> for sexual purposes ofc
13:08:49 <ehird> oklopol: also there's no actual hover colour so you have to be sure you're pressing the right thing within yourself
13:08:54 <ehird> i think that's pretty cool
13:08:59 <ehird> similarly, no distinction between active and inactive window
13:09:09 <oklopol> oerjan: well sure, but to someone who's actually been listening to you for a long time, not so much.
13:10:02 <oklopol> ehird: okay all that sounds good
13:11:09 * oerjan starts getting worried now
13:12:33 <ehird> oklopol: i'm even gonna use a white on black firefox theme
13:12:36 <ehird> and force all fonts to be consolas
13:17:24 <ehird> oklopol: * { background-color: #000 !important; color: #FFF !important; }
13:17:39 <ehird> also i have just found out that highlighted text isn't… highlighted
13:22:42 <ehird> as soon as i fix this pesky text problem it shall be done
13:27:40 <ehird> oklopol: haha progress bars never fill in
13:31:27 <ehird> oklopol: you don't really need to read button text do you?
13:32:25 <ehird> now just to get a ff theme
13:38:12 <ehird> it's very silly how black and monospaced this thing is
13:38:23 <ehird> there's like 1,000 non-white, non-black pixels on the screen
13:53:23 <ehird> oklopol: and now, for your viewing pleasure:
13:55:17 <ehird> oklopol: and now, for your viewing pleasure, I present my work "windows in black, white and consolas":
13:55:19 <ehird> http://imgur.com/JDuSP.png
13:57:14 <ehird> (oklopol then spent ten minutes attempting to click on the buttons and links of the screenshot.)
13:58:46 <oklopol> ehird: well i tried scrolling :P
13:58:56 <oklopol> so fuck you for saying that.
13:59:04 <ehird> but hey it is awesome right
14:00:05 <Asztal> I've seen people who use windows almost like that (without consolas, that is)
14:00:21 <ehird> oklopol specifically specified (← lawl) monospaced!
14:00:29 <AnMaster> I installed kmines from kde4 to test it
14:00:37 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah you can hardly configure the mines to hook in with the terminal emulator
14:00:39 <AnMaster> I can't even set up the click mapping
14:00:43 <ehird> and it doesn't have a built in text editor any more
14:00:49 <ehird> stupid kde4 mines.
14:01:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I want middle = free one, left = free around if possible (which is usually middle), left = mark mine
14:01:22 <AnMaster> but I can't configure that in either kde4 kmines or the gnome mines app
14:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is much faster to click that way
14:01:45 <ehird> "left = free around if possible (which is usually middle), left = mark mine"
14:01:49 <ehird> guess you want it to be telepathic too huh
14:02:16 <ehird> oklopol: anyway did i do that all for nothing or do you want me to give it
14:04:01 <oklopol> ehird: well umm sure gimme :P
14:04:22 <oklopol> Asztal: i can't stand non-monospaced fonts
14:04:27 <ehird> oklopol: but you'll be all "oh i have to work to configure it laaaaaaame" :P
14:04:59 <oklopol> i assume i'd just have to put it in like a themes folder and choose it from the list
14:05:16 <ehird> it requires a bit of clicky click.
14:05:25 <ehird> there appears to be a theme file thing
14:05:30 <ehird> you'd still have to clicky click but lesso
14:05:47 <Asztal> oklopol: Then you probably hate/pity me for having coded in Comic Sans MS :)
14:05:54 <ehird> Asztal: ABDUHWHDJFKLjdkgwhat
14:09:04 <oklopol> Asztal: i might do that with something like wingdings as a brain adaption exercise, but with comic sans, i'm pretty indifferent to it. and i don't really see the difference bitween comic sans and all the other ugly non-monospaced fonts, easy to read, but broken by not being monospaced.
14:09:30 <ehird> oklopol: okay, i figureds it out
14:09:34 <ehird> lemme compile an instruction list thing
14:14:27 <ehird> oklopol: here goeses:
14:15:11 <ehird> oklopol: http://pastie.org/561607.txt?key=naofzirdnebs4kp3qv2rwa, the theme file you need is http://filebin.ca/dvvzzj/windowsinblackwhiteandconsolas.themepack
14:15:22 <ehird> oklopol: oh, I missed one more step
14:15:27 <ehird> oklopol: in the control panel, find the cursors
14:15:33 <ehird> change it to Windows Black.
14:15:58 <ehird> It will be totally super-plus kickass.
14:16:35 <ehird> …for a definition of kickass equal to "white, black and consolas".
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14:18:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you should read the annotation on IWC today. Is it really that bad in UK?
14:19:32 <ehird> public photography is de-facto illegal in the uk.
14:20:17 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, also:
14:20:21 <ehird> "We’d all like to help the police to do their job well. They, in turn, would like to have a massive database with DNA profiles from everyone who has been arrested, but not convicted of a crime."
14:20:23 <ehird> http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/is-this-a-joke/
14:20:25 <ehird> source: the Guardian
14:25:45 <oklopol> ehird: this is for firefox? i'm not currently using it...
14:25:54 <ehird> oklopol: well the windows theme isn't for ff
14:26:00 <ehird> but the font/colour stuff is
14:26:02 <ehird> oklopol: what are you using instead
14:26:04 <oklopol> i switched to ie because i can't change the language in ff
14:26:16 <ehird> i'll do it for IE then
14:27:58 <ehird> oklopol: anyway do the windows theme + cursor while i do it for IE?
14:28:06 <ehird> those aren't ff-related
14:30:49 <ehird> oklopol: Tools -> Internet Options -> Fonts. Consolas on both sides. Accessibility. Ignore colours, font sizes. Format documents using my style sheet - make a file in notepad with the text [[ * { font-family: Consolas !important; font-size: 13px !important; } ]], save it as "(whatever).css" and select it.
14:31:36 <ehird> oklopol: that doesn't actually fix the font size
14:31:48 <ehird> oklopol: don't tick the "ignore font sizes"
14:32:06 <ehird> oklopol: the file should actually be: [[
14:32:12 <ehird> * { font-family: Consolas !important; font-size: 13px !important; }
14:32:19 <ehird> a:link { text-decoration: underline !important; }
14:32:47 <ehird> wait, doesn't work
14:32:50 <ehird> oklopol: remove the ":link" part
14:34:01 <ehird> oklopol: okay, the file should be
14:34:15 <ehird> but replace a:link with
14:34:19 <ehird> a:link, a:hover, a:active, a:visited
14:35:06 <ehird> what the fuck it didn't work.
14:35:45 <ehird> oklopol: colors, untick use window colours, text = white, background = black, visited and unvisisted = white
14:35:54 <ehird> oklopol: now tell me you'll do it, otherwise i just wasted like half an hour
14:36:24 <ehird> wow since about 13:00
14:36:29 <ehird> an hour and a half
14:36:47 <ehird> in fact oklopol if you do the colors menu thing
14:36:51 <ehird> you can omit the a line from the css
14:37:09 <ehird> oklopol: shall i compile a new guide
14:37:16 <oklopol> err yeah that might be better
14:39:18 <oklopol> heh, there was this iq test, "what's the capital of X? 1) X; 2) Y; 3) Z; 4) all of the above" and i'm like lol worst iq test ever
14:39:25 <oklopol> and 4) is the correct answer
14:40:37 <oklopol> well you know how iq tests usually suck when they're pop ups
14:40:48 <ehird> oklopol: oh. none will have been "correct"
14:40:52 <oklopol> i just assumed all of the above was like a standard fourth question
14:40:52 <ehird> they'll all have linked to the same page
14:41:01 <ehird> oklopol: http://pastie.org/561636.txt?key=jhd5a2mamzfmg2gcvysrcw
14:41:09 <ehird> compleat guide to "windows in black, white and consolas"
14:41:10 <oklopol> there are many kinds of things those do
14:41:32 <oklopol> some actually give you a result, not sure any actually is an iq test of any kind
14:42:14 <oklopol> ehird: 4 was the correct answer based on wikipedia that is
14:42:33 <oklopol> technically three capitals
14:42:51 <ehird> oklopol: oh so it wasn't actually X with answers X Y and Z?
14:42:55 <ehird> i was very confused there
14:42:58 <oklopol> remembered i'd heard of something like that, so i checked, now i kinda feel like i should find the page and apologize for laughing at it
14:43:09 <oklopol> i don't know how to mark variables
14:43:10 <ehird> it's okay, i'm retarded :D
14:43:32 <oklopol> as retarded as a snow in a flow
14:43:56 <ehird> anyway do that damn guide i spent ages on the whole thing :P
14:47:58 <oklopol> okay all done except for the css, i don't know where to make it use that
14:48:55 <ehird> oklopol: in the same place as the last click
14:49:04 <ehird> you'll have to restart IE afterwards
14:49:06 <ehird> or it doesn't stick
14:49:11 <oklopol> yeah i found it shut up :D
14:49:50 <oklopol> doesn't stick? you mean i have to restart it right away, because if i do later, it will have changed back?
14:51:18 <ehird> oklopol: no, it just won't apply yet
14:51:21 <ehird> and it'll be in a half-state
14:51:24 <ehird> with the other stuff but not the CSS
14:51:27 <ehird> which will be a bit bleh
14:51:48 <oklopol> well i'll restart after this ep
14:52:09 <oklopol> although i'll probably leave the computer then
14:53:54 <ehird> oklopol: you won't
14:54:30 <oklopol> i can't just waste the whole day and read during the night like usually, because i'm trying to keep this new human sleep cycle
14:55:27 <ehird> you should be going the other way
14:56:26 <oklopol> should've done that in the beginning of the summer
14:57:07 <oklopol> but having the day the other way around is just a nuisance
14:57:31 <oklopol> i mean i like the fact i don't see much of the sun, but you know shops and shit.
14:57:38 <oklopol> also i have stuff to do later this week
14:58:29 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but you can do it ≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥magic
14:59:13 <ehird> ←the doing in the summer →of the other way around← because uberman →→both ways←← bisexual ≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥day time→
14:59:56 <oklopol> now i have this chili pepper stuff
15:00:05 <oklopol> one of those bastards is like 1cm in length
15:00:12 <oklopol> and i've been eating it for two days
15:00:28 <oklopol> i've gotten about 2 millimeters down, and i've been having diarrhea like every 3 hours
15:00:59 <ehird> oklopol: okay the explain
15:01:56 <ehird> ←←the thing→ note the notational parentheses, like inverses, the further in the less parenthical ←←in summer→ hard but if you're magic→ (be magic) →then← →uberman day →both ways← not just no sun →no sun and sun←← →you can no sun →and shops←← ←at same →time←!→→
15:02:45 <oklopol> okay that makes much more sense
15:03:05 <ehird> →since it goes← both ways
15:03:11 <ehird> ←it is→ day bisexual!
15:05:11 <GregorR> Hey doods I'm on qwantz.com
15:05:34 <ehird> GregorR: wow really
15:05:43 <ehird> put some adsense on that bitch
15:06:02 <ehird> GregorR: also link to your lonely trex thing on one of the pages
15:06:49 <GregorR> Maybe when there are a few more in the backlog so I know Brian won't just go "well I've decided not to care lawl"
15:06:50 <ehird> 'cuz, y'know, it's not
15:07:21 <GregorR> He's the one actually making them, I just made the site.
15:07:42 <GregorR> Hence "Posted ... by Brian" on the only one that's there so far :P
15:07:51 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=1,4&comics=684,1259
15:08:07 <GregorR> "second and fifth crazy times" :P
15:08:18 <ehird> It's right up your alley.
15:08:33 <GregorR> lol @ trapdoor functions X-D
15:08:49 <ehird> GregorR: your munger still doesn't have the rearrange features btw
15:08:54 <ehird> even though the .php does
15:12:46 <ehird> a dinosaur comic with actual drawing
15:12:47 <ehird> http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-440.png
15:13:45 <GregorR> He does thought bubbles occasionally :P
15:15:53 <ehird> GregorR: yeah but this isn't just around text!
15:15:58 <ehird> it's around other parts of the panel too!
15:16:10 <GregorR> He does full-panel thought bubbles occasionally.
15:16:15 <GregorR> There are at least four or five
15:16:31 <oklopol> are there any moustaches though
15:19:08 <GregorR> In the reversed ones there are goatees
15:19:31 <ehird> GregorR: Thus "a", not "the" :P
15:23:00 * Sgeo pokes ehird nomicwise
15:23:21 <ehird> Nomic and government: The two directions of the seventh dimension.
15:23:37 <ehird> *Government and nomic; a more aesthetically pleasing order.
15:25:29 <ehird> Perhaps, in fact, überlame.
15:25:37 <oklopol> ehird: any reason why it's more aesthetically pleasing?
15:25:48 <ehird> oklopol: nomic feels more like forwards/inwards
15:25:54 <ehird> government feels more like backwards/outwards
15:26:00 <Sgeo> ehird, the idea itself, or my promotion of it in Agora?
15:26:03 <ehird> i mean, i'm imagining Sgeo behind me, poking me nomicwise
15:26:12 <ehird> Sgeo: the execution? :P
15:26:34 <oklopol> ehird: so just felt like it basically :P
15:26:35 <Sgeo> Any suggestions?
15:27:27 <Sgeo> No constructive criticism?
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18:53:57 <ehird> setting up debian on an old powermac!
18:54:04 <ehird> with a 14.5" crt screen!
18:54:40 <ehird> and a ONE BUTAN mouse!
18:57:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: ah, but I mean old
18:57:28 <ehird> not a lame g3/g4 power mac, oh no
18:57:33 <GregorR-L> I've installed Debian on an m68k, bitch.
18:57:44 <GregorR-L> AND an old world, AND a new world mac.
18:57:45 <ehird> i've installed debian on your mom's face
18:57:55 <ehird> anyway this thing can't boot from floppies
18:57:55 <GregorR-L> Sweet, I thought only NetBSD had been ported there.
18:58:00 <ehird> and lenny doesn't have powerpc floppies
18:58:07 <ehird> so i'm downloading etch powerpc floppies
18:58:13 <ehird> and then upgrading to lenny
18:58:23 <ehird> i wonder if it'll support the ADB kb/mouse
18:58:30 <ehird> anyway, currently it doesn't want to write this 1.2MB floppy image
18:58:38 <ehird> guess it needs that little .2mb extra oomph
19:01:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: this machine is fun though
19:01:44 <ehird> it has 96MB of RAM in like 10 sticks
19:01:53 <ehird> and two 1.19GB HDs
19:02:04 <ehird> also, it seems to have a g3 processor
19:02:06 <ehird> which it wasn't sold with
19:02:10 <ehird> so someone's done some upgrading
19:02:17 <ehird> it also has a rather loud fan
19:03:18 <fizzie> I've installed Debian on that Performa what-was-the-number-again. It wasn't m68k, but it was still tricky; had to boot with that Mach-based MkLinux booter, nothing else worked.
19:05:35 <fizzie> Performa 5260, I guess.
19:05:46 <ehird> anyhow, anyone know how to write a non-1.44mb floppy in os 9?
19:06:05 <GregorR-L> fizzie: I had to replace the CPU on my LC :P
19:06:25 <pikhq> ehird: Install A/UX. Use dd.
19:06:35 <fizzie> The Performa had a 603e PPC, at least.
19:07:05 <fizzie> "The Apple Macintosh Performa 5260/120 features a 120 MHz PowerPC 603e processor, 8 MB or 16 MB of RAM, and a 1.2 GB hard drive in an attractive all-in-one case with a 14" color monitor." Well, I guess "attractive" is in the eye of the beholder.
19:07:14 <ehird> incidentally, the iphone makes a nice camera
19:07:17 <ehird> just email the photos to yourself
19:07:33 <ehird> fizzie: my setup is far more ghetto
19:07:38 <ehird> i have a TV/computer/whatever trolley thing
19:07:41 <ehird> and the mac was on sideways
19:07:45 <ehird> due to not fitting the other way around
19:07:50 <ehird> i tilted the monitor
19:07:54 <ehird> tilted the trolley
19:07:58 <ehird> so it's thin and long
19:08:02 <ehird> put the keyboard on a binder next to the monitor
19:08:08 <ehird> tilted up the monitor so it had an ok angle
19:08:15 <ehird> then got a low table
19:08:19 <ehird> stacked a bunch of books on it
19:08:21 <ehird> and finally the mouse
19:08:24 <ehird> and put them next to each other
19:11:02 <ehird> pics: http://imgur.com/ZuRX0.jpg, http://imgur.com/6LFmv.jpg and http://imgur.com/kpU2b.jpg
19:12:57 <ehird> anyone know of floppy image writing software for mac os 9
19:23:06 * ehird attempts to redownload the image
19:23:30 <ehird> guys do you think Gnome will run on a 300mhz PowerPC G3 with 96MB of RAM :-D
19:23:42 <ehird> FireFly: I was just emphasising "kinda" :P
19:24:13 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, but it's dubious that it's worth it.
19:24:18 <ehird> pikhq: yeah I was joking
19:24:23 <ehird> i'll go with lwm or something
19:24:41 <ehird> well it could do with a task bar
19:25:05 <ehird> pikhq: so if I can't get this 1.2mb etch floppy to work
19:25:12 <ehird> (there's a 1.6mb one too, hope I won't need that)
19:25:15 <ehird> pikhq: what's the one before etch?
19:25:28 <ehird> can I go that → etch → lenny → testing without wanting to kill myself? :D
19:26:32 <pikhq> Etch was a nasty jump.
19:26:52 <ehird> pikhq: but won't I just be able to replace the apt list and do dist-upgrade a few times?
19:27:08 <pikhq> The time between Sarge and Etch was about 6 years.
19:27:16 <ehird> pikhq: …so it won't work very well, then?
19:27:26 <pikhq> The major version of everything was incremented.
19:27:36 <ehird> what, every single package?
19:27:43 <pikhq> Well, except Linux. That just did 2.4 (with 2.2 still supported) to 2.6.
19:27:50 <ehird> i doubt every single package :P
19:27:55 <ehird> pikhq: so that's not a good route, then?
19:28:05 <ehird> i have my old pc, maybe that could write the floppy doppy woppy
19:28:35 <ehird> pikhq: otoh, how in the world of fuck am I meant to write a 1.6mb floppy?
19:28:50 <pikhq> dd if=floppy of=/dev/fd0
19:29:01 <pikhq> Linux has crazy floppy support.
19:29:03 <ehird> The MEDIA is 1.44mb.
19:29:08 <ehird> pikhq: No, no, you don't understand.
19:29:11 <ehird> It's not meant to be 1.6mb.
19:29:20 <ehird> It was reported as a bug yonks ago, but it must be back.
19:29:23 <pikhq> Actually, the media can support up to 1.8 MB.
19:29:25 <ehird> The i386 one is 1.44MB.
19:29:31 <ehird> pikhq: Grrr shut up >_<
19:29:49 <pikhq> Linux has *freaking crazy* floppy support. ;)
19:30:06 <pikhq> Oh, wait. *Sarge* wasn't a bad jump.
19:30:16 <pikhq> It was Woody that went ages without an update.
19:30:54 <pikhq> Sarge had updated versions of 73% of the distribution and doubled in the number of supported packages...
19:31:01 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Actually, the media can upport up to 2.8
19:32:02 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, and Woody originally shipped with Linux *2.2*.
19:32:26 <ehird> pikhq: Okay, so sarge → etch → lenny → testing might only take a few hours?
19:33:02 <ehird> I'll do that, then. I… guess.
19:33:09 <ehird> Now where are dem sarge ppc floppies?
19:33:16 <ehird> Not in /debian/dists/, unless it's oldstable.
19:33:27 <pikhq> It's no longer supported.
19:33:57 <ehird> i have to get it from pirate warez debian sites? :D
19:35:52 <ehird> pikhq: will any drive support 1.6mb disks, out of curiosity?
19:35:57 <ehird> forall drives, support
19:37:06 <pikhq> All drives support it. Just not all OSes.
19:37:21 <pikhq> (Linux does some really funky things with the floppy controller)
19:37:46 <ehird> pikhq: which is best?
19:37:53 <ehird> 1. write floppies on old pc, hope they work
19:37:56 <ehird> 2. try sarge instead
19:38:09 <pikhq> Unix of some sort.
19:38:24 <ehird> old pc = runs linu
19:38:47 <ehird> but tons of upgrades sounds fun :D
19:41:07 <ehird> do it on the other machine tthen
19:44:10 <ehird> pikhq: i've found the sarge images and there's a 1.3 one!
19:45:15 <ehird> may i, incidentally, sing high praises for this powermac?
19:45:18 <ehird> it's quite nice, albeit slow
19:46:26 <ehird> I wonder what ofonlyboot.img is.
19:49:00 <ehird> I can't find a manual for the floppy disk files; I've tried.
19:49:04 <ehird> pikhq: what was that command again?
19:50:01 <ehird> Oh, just "dd if=foo.img of=/dev/fd0"
19:50:05 <ehird> says you in the past :P
19:51:14 <ehird> gmail logged me out
19:51:18 <ehird> on the powermac :P
19:51:33 <ehird> yay it remembered the text
19:53:20 <ehird> bah, it just doesn't work on it
19:53:33 <ehird> now how am i going to get my email, composed on the powermac, to the imac?
19:53:44 <ehird> using a floppy would be a pain :P
20:00:40 <ehird> Righty ho, should have those floppies ready in no time.
20:00:47 <ehird> Then, it's just a matter of etch → lenny → testing.
20:01:16 <ehird> You know, if the processor was worth shit, I'd make it part of a cluster. :P
20:01:32 <ehird> But I think it's interesting.
20:01:47 <ehird> I bet this hardware can be quite snappy.
20:01:50 <ehird> OS 9 just isn't the fastest thing.
20:01:58 <ehird> For instance, boxes appear before the text inside them.
20:03:46 <ehird> Thankfully, there's an empty 1.19GB drive in there, monicker "STORAGE".
20:04:08 <ehird> After this, it'll probably be "OS 9.1" and "Debian".
20:10:20 <Deewiant> http://www38.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=prime+factors+of+0 - zero is prime these days
20:11:59 <ehird> pikhq: "/dev/fd0: read-only filesystem"
20:12:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Flip the switch on the disk?
20:13:26 <Deewiant> Then mount it as read/write? :-P
20:13:57 <ehird> It's a device file.
20:15:19 <ehird> "$ dd if=filename of=/dev/fd0 bs=1024 conv=sync ; sync"
20:15:25 <ehird> from debian.org/…/powerpc/…, heh
20:15:35 <ehird> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-6.2-Manual/multi-arch/ch-makediskette.html
20:15:39 <ehird> Deewiant: what, both?
20:15:41 <ehird> of different makes?
20:15:56 <Deewiant> If two different disks said that... maybe :-P
20:16:15 <pikhq> ehird: The disk has the write-protect tab on.
20:16:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I'd expect "IO error" or something from that, not "read-only filesystem".
20:16:28 <ehird> pikhq: No, it doesn't.
20:16:37 <ehird> The tab is covering the whole, which is apparently "Write", not "Protect".
20:16:38 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure.
20:16:40 <ehird> Unless it's lying to me.
20:17:04 <Deewiant> Googling suggests that nobody knows what that error is about
20:17:38 <ehird> Please don't say "bad drive"; I'll cry.
20:17:57 <ehird> Well… it didn't mount anything when the disk was put in.
20:18:01 <ehird> So it's quite possible…
20:18:07 <ehird> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
20:18:19 <Deewiant> Do OSs generally automount floppies
20:18:33 <ehird> Maybe not, Ubuntu might though :P
20:18:43 <ehird> *Perhaps, not maybe
20:18:47 <ehird> pikhq: Old macs, yeah.
20:18:58 <ehird> Azstal: I've read the Old New Thing article on it.
20:19:01 <pikhq> It's difficult to do on normal machines, because they don't have disk insertion detection.
20:19:05 <Deewiant> Unless you have a freaky drive
20:19:17 <ehird> "Users couldn't possibly deal with a floppy drive klunk while it's installing."
20:19:23 <ehird> "Therefore, we will cripple our OS."
20:24:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm having fun with aircrack-ng
20:24:30 <AnMaster> seeing how many open networks there are around here
20:24:42 <ehird> Bruce Schneier runs an open network.
20:24:49 <ehird> Are you doubting his prowess?
20:25:07 <ehird> (it provides _more_ privacy; plausible denial for illegal activity)
20:25:11 <AnMaster> mine is the only with WPA2. There is one with WPA and the SSID for it is set to the name of an ISP
20:26:30 <ehird> bleh, I wonder what i should do
20:26:36 <ehird> I don't have another floppy drivin' computer
20:26:54 <AnMaster> ehird, btw had to patch kernel to make my wlan card support aircrack-ng... Oh and this should fix some of the kernel oopses at shutdown too since it brought in a backported driver from 2.6.30
20:27:07 <AnMaster> still won't fix the long time to connect bug though
20:29:11 <ehird> Deewiant: what did you google to find the clueless peeps?
20:29:23 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q="%2Fdev%2Ffd0 read-only
20:29:43 <ehird> with a " at the end, I assume
20:30:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> New macs, mu. :P <-- if you ever visit me I have an USB floppy drive. If you want to test it on new macs :P
20:30:40 <AnMaster> I might even have a floppy somewhere too
20:30:43 <ehird> Deewiant: it does?
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20:42:41 <AnMaster> fun a AP with a BSSID (like MAC but for access points) with all zeros
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20:51:39 <ehird> pikhq: Deewiant: Doesn't work in Windows either. Guess the drive's borked.
20:51:49 <ehird> So I need a flexible floppy writer for OS 9… bleh.
20:52:14 <AnMaster> because I do have access to OS 9
20:52:30 <AnMaster> but I'm not interested enough to read scrollback :P
20:52:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Am I trying to do?
20:52:56 <ehird> I think you missed a "what". :P
20:53:07 <ehird> But I'm trying to write two oddly-sized floppy images: one 1.2MB and one 1.6MB.
20:53:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed I missed the "what"
20:53:19 <ehird> Apple's Disk Copy utility patently refuses to recognise either as disk images.
20:53:36 <ehird> The final purpose for this is to boot them up so that I can have Debian on my old PowerMac.
20:53:43 <ehird> Kinda circular, that :P
20:53:47 <AnMaster> there used to be /dev/fd<type of floop> device node
20:53:53 <AnMaster> nowdays there only seems to be /dev/fd0
20:54:02 <ehird> Yes… in Linux… which I'm trying to install… by doing this.
20:54:25 <ehird> The PC running Linux's floppy drive is broken in both Linux and Windows.
20:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you need oddly sized floppies
20:54:36 <ehird> AnMaster: because Debian etch's floppy images are that size
20:54:37 <AnMaster> that means a nice floppy drive
20:54:44 <AnMaster> that can do more than normal PC ones
20:55:12 <ehird> It's a "Power Macintosh 7600/120", but it actually has a G3 300MHz processor, not a blargle 120MHz one, so I guess some upgrading was done.
20:55:30 <AnMaster> ehird, how long have you had it
20:55:30 <ehird> It has two 1.19GB disks, one of which is empty and I'll be installing Debian on, and 96MB of RAM in a lot of 16 and 8MB sticks.
20:55:42 <ehird> Mac OS 9.1, like it does now.
20:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you pay for it
20:55:55 <HackEgo> 30 UK = 369.235958 Swedish kronor
20:56:09 <ehird> Because it's kind of cool.
20:56:21 <ehird> It also came with a 15.4" CRT, the keyboard and the mouse.
20:56:22 <AnMaster> anyway... *nostalgia over pre-OS X MacOS kicks in*
20:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, usb keyboard or ADB one?
20:56:46 <ehird> ADB, same with the ONE BUTAN mouse.
20:56:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it has no USB ports.
20:57:03 <AnMaster> I guess first generation didn't
20:57:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Right, it's not an iMac G3.
20:57:13 <ehird> And wasn't sold with a G3.
20:57:15 <pikhq> Hmm. 7600/120... *That* one.
20:57:22 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_7600
20:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an upgrade card in it?
20:57:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Presumably.
20:58:03 <ehird> I don't know. It's an Old World ROM machine, tohugh.
20:58:19 <ehird> And has drivers suggestive of some sort of ATI graphics card.
20:58:39 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is a case like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrigger_Macintosh
20:58:52 <ehird> It looks exactly like that.
20:59:01 <AnMaster> ehird, when you opened it I mean
20:59:06 <ehird> I haven't opened it.
20:59:14 <AnMaster> btw. does it use VGA for the monitor or some other interface?
20:59:23 <ehird> It's a CRT, so… VGA.
20:59:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well.... apple have made some strange connectors during the years
20:59:43 <ehird> I'm not sure, looking at the back.
20:59:49 <AnMaster> so I'm not assuming CRT = VGA for old macs
20:59:50 <ehird> Anyway, the CRT is made by "Axion".
21:00:04 <AnMaster> just consider the "mini-scsi" found on some powerbooks
21:00:11 <ehird> Looks to be relatively no-name.
21:00:15 <ehird> So I guess it's VGA.
21:00:37 <ehird> I just need a flexible floppy image writer for Mac OS 9, essentially. :P
21:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: It can't boot from the CD.
21:01:04 <ehird> It can boot from Mac OS 8.5 install CDs, and nothing else.
21:01:06 <AnMaster> ehird, is there some boot floppy of standard size that can then chainload the cd?
21:01:30 <ehird> I'm getting quite enamoured with the floppy approach, though. :)
21:01:52 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=chainload+cd+old+world+mac&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 Doesn't look like it.
21:01:58 <AnMaster> ehird, this is strange. I started using ubuntu. You starting using floppies... What the hell is going on!?
21:02:14 <ehird> Hey, I've always been a retro kind of guy!
21:02:28 <ehird> At least until I use a retro machine and remember that they're excruciatingly slow.
21:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to be extremely surprised when I updated the bios of that old dell I have using a floppy
21:04:39 <ehird> Incidentally, IE 5.1 for Mac sort of… sucks.
21:07:24 <ehird> Anyone want to search for me? I've done so for hours :P
21:07:55 <pikhq> ehird: Compare with IE 5 for the PC.
21:08:17 <pikhq> Significantly better standards support.
21:08:33 <pikhq> (it has a sane and sensible box object model! It actually does PNG!)
21:08:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
21:10:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> Anyone want to search for me? I've done so for hours :P <-- search for what?
21:11:04 <ehird> A Mac OS 9 application that takes a floppy image and writes a floppy without such concerns for silly things like "is 1.44MB large".
21:11:28 <pikhq> Basically, you want dd for Mac OS.
21:11:37 <ehird> Right. Except only for floppies, due to a lack of /dev.
21:12:00 <ehird> Heard of those guys who like System 7 the best of every OS?
21:12:06 <ehird> There's someone more hardcore.
21:12:07 <ehird> http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/system_6_heaven.html
21:12:28 <pikhq> At least that's still a Mac OS with Multifinder.
21:12:56 <ehird> "System", you uncouth person.
21:13:01 <ehird> pikhq: And hey, it can use two colours.
21:13:03 <ehird> And 8 megabytes of RAM.
21:13:43 <ehird> "Something are easier in the bloat os called system 7."
21:13:49 <ehird> Among his complaints are "it's written in C, not asm".
21:14:38 <pikhq> Uh. Haven't they done C on the Mac for a while?
21:14:39 <ehird> I really need these floppies writ; I've spent all day on this.
21:14:43 <ehird> pikhq: Since System 7. :P
21:14:53 <ehird> Hey, System 6 is modern! 1991 modern.
21:16:04 <pikhq> I fail to see how someone willing to use a Mac that old would not be willing to use A/UX. :P
21:16:36 <pikhq> Aside from "Lawl, it's in C!"
21:16:37 <ehird> pikhq: A/UX is way more modern than that.
21:16:42 -!- M0ny has joined.
21:17:02 <pikhq> ehird: Last release of A/UX was in '95.
21:17:24 <pikhq> About the same age.
21:17:26 <ehird> DEBIAN. Dammit. Floppies. >_>
21:32:58 <ehird> These harddrives are Quantum Fireballs.
21:33:00 <ehird> Blast from the past.
21:38:02 <ehird> i will* paypal $10 to the person who finds me a suitable app
21:39:20 <FireFly> You should've placed the footnote after one screen of IRCing
21:40:41 <evenant> i remember some image software i used to use all the time on system 6 and 7
21:40:47 <evenant> but i don't know if it had sanity checks, probably did
21:41:00 <evenant> it was straight up drag and drop
21:41:07 <evenant> drag floppy to alias, get image
21:41:14 <evenant> drag image to alias, get (mounted) floppy
21:41:26 <ehird> evenant: sounds like Disk Copy? by Apple
21:41:28 <evenant> ..but damned if i can remember the name now
21:41:42 <ehird> evenant: i'm trying to write an image to a disk but that's close enough
21:41:50 <ehird> that it probably has it
21:41:59 <ehird> anyway i think the net-drivers might be omittable
21:42:54 <ehird> so i just need 1.2-writing
21:43:24 <evenant> wow how could i forget the name of such a useful p...
21:44:11 <evenant> http://www.mac.org/utilities/shrinkwrap/
21:44:56 <ehird> evenant: appears to do everything but write images, from the page
21:45:48 <evenant> i don't think it writes images
21:45:52 <evenant> but i remembered the name! :P
21:45:56 <ehird> haha its tinny speakers makes stuff sound kinda cool
21:46:18 <evenant> i dunno though, it would make sense to be able to write images too
21:46:23 <evenant> maybe it's just not the default drop behavior
21:46:41 <evenant> but i wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have it
21:46:48 <evenant> i don't think i ever used an app that wrote images
21:46:49 <ehird> Disklosure is a floppy formatter. It supports initialization, erasure, verification and desktop file manipulation of any Macintosh 800K and 1.4Mb floppy disks. Disklosure speeds up lenghty tasks such as initializing more than a couple disks from the standard Finder™ interface, and provides an all-in-one window for customization. Advanced settings to increase the available free space after initialization are also available.
21:46:56 <ehird> i'll try both of these
21:49:58 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar
21:50:00 <ehird> disklosure doesn't do it
21:51:14 <ehird> Heh, the Stuffit guys (Aladdin Systems) made ShrinkWrap.
21:52:09 <ehird> evenant: "Sorry, but this demo of Aladdin Transaction Engine is too old to use as a demo and/or purchase."
21:52:19 <ehird> hmm, but then it seems to start up
21:52:48 <ehird> evenant: it wants an unlock code :P
21:54:08 <ehird> evenant: did you buy/pirate it? :D
21:56:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:56:39 <ehird> evenant: yep, it can do it :(\
21:57:49 <evenant> that was over a decade ago
21:57:55 <evenant> i had access to updated C&N databases at the time
21:58:01 <evenant> i don't know if C&N still exists
22:00:51 <ehird> 3/4ths of the way to punching the crap out of the crt
22:00:54 * oerjan looks at evenant's irc name
22:01:05 <oerjan> better than a wasted mind and a body on fire, i guess
22:01:15 <ehird> dude oerjan i made that joke
22:01:32 <oerjan> WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU PATENT IT
22:04:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:05:44 <oerjan> why the long, strangely parenthetical face?
22:07:19 <GregorR> oerjan: I'm going to use that expression the next time I see somebody frowning.
22:07:29 <ehird> would you be smiling
22:07:32 <ehird> if you couldn't write floppies
22:07:45 <ehird> YOU'RE A FUCKING 1-BIT 1984 MACINTOSH
22:07:52 <ehird> You don't deserve it.
22:07:56 <ehird> I didn't mean to take it out on you, Happy Mac.
22:09:51 <oerjan> GregorR: please include proper references, wikipedia style.
22:10:07 <GregorR> oerjan: So, [citation needed]?
22:10:27 * oerjan swats GregorR -----###
22:13:03 <oklopol> i just debugged a trivial program for like an hour because of the new python's retardedness
22:15:19 <oklopol> wrote exponentiation modulo n (didn't know the new python has it, or whether the old one did), and when i realized division is, for some retarded reason, automatically done with doubles, i just corrected the result with a naive int(n/2)
22:15:56 <oklopol> which was stupid of course, but not nearly as stupid as the fact they've made it use doubles
22:16:22 <oklopol> i'm assuming you know the error right away as i'm pointing your attention to it..?
22:16:52 <oklopol> the exponentiation routine wasn't exactly something i thought could ever be written wrong by a human being
22:17:16 <oklopol> anyway, i'm glad i didn't switch to it
22:18:08 <ehird> anyway division being non-integer is… senseful
22:18:27 <ehird> oklopol: can i enslave you to do my googling bidding
22:19:05 <ehird> oklopol: the error of n/m being non-integer?
22:19:17 <oklopol> ehird: i mean the error with the routine
22:19:37 <oklopol> what was the error in that exponentiation routine
22:19:53 <oklopol> i mean the int(n/2) correction didn't fix the problem
22:20:16 <oklopol> naturally i realized divisions were non-integer right away
22:20:50 <oklopol> and division being non-integer is senseful if there's a // operator, yes; although i'd have them the other way around
22:21:06 <ehird> oklopol: not rly, it's what division is
22:21:18 <oklopol> then again, i don't really use doubles anyway
22:21:20 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know how to format a floppy in mac os 9 that's already formatted?
22:21:35 <AnMaster> ehird, sec. it is in one of the menus in finder
22:21:39 <oklopol> well it's so obvious it'd be silly to tell you
22:22:05 <ehird> oklopol: just… tell me?
22:22:14 <AnMaster> ehird, forgot the name of it. and anyway I only used Swedish OS9
22:22:25 <ehird> AnMaster: "erase disk" is greyed out
22:22:33 <AnMaster> ehird, did you select the floppy first?
22:22:42 <ehird> oh it's not in the folder
22:22:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: i have two integers in python and i want their integer division, but the result is a double, so i do int(n/m)
22:23:00 <ehird> i mean you don't open the disk
22:23:15 <oklopol> this is a function that does exponentiation modulo m
22:23:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think there is some sort of integer division one right?
22:23:28 <AnMaster> but ask ehird for python stuff
22:23:44 <AnMaster> pretty sure I saw // in python
22:23:58 <ehird> …which is what he meant
22:24:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm asking what could be the error with doing int(n/m)
22:24:24 <oklopol> i mean it should be obvious
22:24:41 * AnMaster wonders what sort of crash aircrack-ng is on when reporting this:
22:24:41 <oklopol> although clearly it's at least slightly less obvious than i thought
22:24:54 <ehird> crash is a hip new drug!
22:25:28 <ehird> argh i hate disk copy
22:25:31 <AnMaster> 00:00:00:00:00:00 -1 0 1787 0 138 -1 OPN
22:25:36 <ehird> and its fucking "LOL MUST BE 1.44MB EXACTLY" BULL SHIT
22:25:41 * oklopol is tempted to start nickpinging random people
22:25:56 <AnMaster> and it isn't set to listen to that channel either
22:25:59 <ehird> maybe i'll pad the 1.2 to 1.44
22:26:29 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the other one being at 1.6?
22:26:38 <ehird> net-drivers.img, so i guess it's like
22:26:39 <oklopol> ehird: just think of the types okay, n/m is int -> int -> double, after which you do double -> int, whereas // is int -> int -> int
22:26:43 <ehird> also cd-drivers is another one that i don't need
22:26:46 <ehird> i guess net-drivers downloads drivers
22:26:51 <oklopol> what happens during that translation in addition to flooring?
22:26:53 <ehird> maybe not needed? i don't know
22:26:56 <ehird> AnMaster: what then
22:26:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it is network interface drivers
22:27:08 <ehird> oh, for a netinstall
22:27:17 <ehird> AnMaster: but this is very generic ethernet i think
22:27:20 <ehird> i can deal with that later
22:27:31 <ehird> now what's a good dd command thingy to pad out a file with zeroes, I'm dumb today
22:27:35 <AnMaster> that is apple's own network thingy
22:27:49 <ehird> it's connected via regular ethernet atm
22:28:14 <ehird> it says it went with the iMac
22:28:16 <ehird> and this predates the iMac
22:28:18 <AnMaster> it is interesting, I tend to know more than you when it comes to really old macs
22:28:25 <AnMaster> ehird, also, don't you just love OS 9?
22:28:28 <ehird> i _did_ only start using a mac in 2006
22:28:32 <ehird> AnMaster: is that sarcastic or not?
22:28:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I love it in a nostalgia love sort of way
22:28:52 <ehird> it's kinda dandy for 1999 I gues
22:29:08 <AnMaster> ehird, no memory protection, so if anything crashes it usually brings the OS with it
22:29:17 <ehird> a bit behind for '99
22:29:21 <ehird> but most mac applications were, like
22:29:35 <ehird> ones i've used at least
22:29:53 <AnMaster> but even so crashes were common
22:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what about windows 95? did it have any sort of memory protection between processes? I don't remember
22:30:32 <AnMaster> I guess 95 and 98 was the same when it came to that too
22:30:47 <ehird> 95 had that kinda shit, yeah
22:32:12 * ehird ruby -e'print "\0" * 133360' >> root.img
22:33:42 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you close a "minimised" finder window?
22:33:47 <ehird> i.e. along the bottom bar, tab like thing
22:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, hm not sure what you mean
22:35:09 <ehird> yay it recognises root 2.img (my padded version)
22:35:14 <AnMaster> ehird, as in you double clicked a window bar to fold it into the window bar?
22:35:23 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Mac_OS_9_screenshot_2.png
22:35:42 <ehird> drag leftwards to make it into a real window
22:35:43 <AnMaster> ehird, huh. I never knew that was possible
22:35:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I did it by mistake, but let me try again :)
22:36:08 <ehird> AnMaster: simply drag a Finder window to the bottom right, it seems
22:36:11 <ehird> and position as you wish
22:36:16 <ehird> then drag it up or click it once to expand up
22:36:32 <ehird> could be useful for like a downloads folder
22:36:41 <AnMaster> ehird, you can double click any window title bar to fold the window into the title bar iirc
22:36:41 <ehird> like Leopard's stacks on the dock
22:36:54 <ehird> personally I prefer the concept of minimising :P
22:36:59 <ehird> ROOT.IMG WRITTEN!!!!!
22:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, keep mac os too? it is fun and retro :)
22:37:38 <AnMaster> I can give you some good classic MacOS-only games if you wait for a while
22:38:43 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
22:38:56 -!- GregorR has joined.
22:39:14 <ehird> let's try net-drivers.img now
22:39:19 <ehird> AnMaster: and i will
22:39:28 <ehird> install debian on the other 1.19GB drive, now named "STORAGE"
22:39:36 <ehird> leave OS 9 on the first 1.19GB
22:39:39 <ehird> both Quantum Fireballs :-D
22:40:15 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you have to agree OS 9 is fun. It makes you realise how good having a terminal actually is
22:40:23 <AnMaster> (because it lacks any sort of terminal)
22:40:57 <ehird> although i'd be fine with mpw
22:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, I can get the same distro as a CD
22:42:19 <ehird> point it to there when it asks for the net drivers
22:43:14 <AnMaster> not sure if you can just bundle that up and send it over
22:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, check if apple provides download still
22:44:45 <ehird> do you think about that distro CD driver thing?
22:45:11 <AnMaster> this is the cause of the strange channel numbers:
22:45:13 <AnMaster> http://forums.remote-exploit.org/bt4beta-software-related-issues/22464-strange-channel-numbers-airodump-ng.html
22:45:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> do you think about that distro CD driver thing? <-- hm?
22:46:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I can get the same distribution on CD
22:46:14 <ehird> "Point to mount-point of net drivers"
22:46:18 <ehird> I can say /media/cdrom or whatever
22:46:28 <ehird> anyway, I'm going to try booting up into the installer even if I can't download anything
22:46:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I don't know. My mac is newworld
22:46:40 <ehird> that's just the bootup stage
22:46:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it was able to boot a gentoo live cd for PPC fine and access network from it
22:47:06 <ehird> yeah yours is way too modern :)
22:47:37 <AnMaster> at least. I think that is what the colour is called
22:48:03 -!- ehird has quit.
22:48:32 <AnMaster> why is ehird not using his bouncer?
22:49:52 -!- ehird has joined.
22:49:57 <ehird> Well, it ejects the bootup floppy if I restart with it in.
22:50:01 * ehird checks the install guide
22:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what happened to your bouncer
22:50:52 <ehird> Dropped it when I tried out macirssi and then Colloquy.
22:51:05 <AnMaster> ehird, why did you quit while rebooting the old computer
22:51:18 <AnMaster> I assume you aren't ircing from OS 9
22:51:24 <ehird> for the feeling, man!
22:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: snak or ircle, I assume
22:51:44 <ehird> hmm ircle is just OS X
22:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, If I give you MPW, will you write your own in pascal?
22:52:15 <AnMaster> those are the supported languages iirc
22:52:27 <ehird> probably not; I might write my own floppy writer
22:52:34 <ehird> or implement scheme or something
22:53:14 <oklopol> finally, someone on #python guessed it
22:54:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:55:56 <ehird> "Before using the floppy you created, set the write protect tab! Otherwise if you accidentally mount it in MacOS, MacOS will helpfully ruin it."
22:55:57 <ehird> ffffffffffffffffff
22:57:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:58:07 <ehird> why is this so full of suck.
23:00:13 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway isn't it kinda hard to upload games what with resource forks?
23:00:33 <ehird> i just have an irrational hated of .sits
23:00:38 <ehird> because they give me shit on OS X sometimes
23:00:42 <AnMaster> ehird, there is .hqx and a few other formats too
23:00:49 <ehird> i've seen .sit.hqx
23:01:14 <AnMaster> ehird, sit can contain resource fork. .sit.hqx mangles that safely
23:01:34 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I can make you a self extracting *.img
23:01:51 <ehird> Uhh, Disk Copy has that as a built-in feature, no?
23:01:55 <AnMaster> this time the *right* one iirc
23:02:22 <AnMaster> or maybe only if you installed the scripts
23:02:31 <ehird> Well, maybe that other thing evenant mentioned.
23:02:34 <ehird> But I think Disk Utility.
23:02:38 <ehird> Also, it's too slow to sanely check.
23:03:11 <ehird> while interwebbing
23:03:19 <AnMaster> anyway is it ok if I prepare this tomorrow? I'm a bit tired and need to sleep
23:03:32 <ehird> ftp://ftp2.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/d/de/debian-imac/MakeDebianFloppy.sit ← doesn't work; what do i need to do to mangle the url into workitude? like a mirror
23:03:36 <AnMaster> ehird, are you saying surfing prevents other stff
23:03:42 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it just makes it run slow.
23:03:45 <AnMaster> apart from apps taking control
23:03:55 <AnMaster> since it isn't cooperative multitasking
23:04:36 <ehird> holding down the mouse button
23:04:40 <ehird> makes the crt whine in a different way
23:05:00 <ehird> most notable over a certain position where a tabbar in the Appearance preference pane thing is
23:05:19 <ehird> it's the mac that whines
23:05:24 <ehird> how do i have to mangle that link?
23:08:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean about the link
23:08:30 <ehird> how do i get it from another mirror?
23:08:41 <AnMaster> um... where is the download page at sf.net
23:09:07 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the thing, it isn't on their files page
23:10:05 <AnMaster> ehird, http://heanet.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/debian-imac/MakeDebianFloppy.sit
23:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird, now remember the modern scheme they use
23:10:56 <ehird> now, I will try ircle!
23:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, since I suspect the link is very outdated
23:11:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:13:26 <ehird> it has OpenProjects
23:14:59 -!- irclehird has joined.
23:15:22 <irclehird> tis failing badly at the topics unicode
23:15:29 <irclehird> also i typed those smart quotes just because i could
23:15:40 <irclehird> lawl it isnt sending in unicode either; macroman probably
23:17:43 <irclehird> AnMaster: how much do i need to bribe you to re-link that .sit?
23:21:15 <irclehird> fine i'll scour the logs on this SLUM OF A MACHINE
23:21:52 -!- irclehird has quit ("Quit").
23:28:44 <pikhq> ehird: Whaddya mean, smart quotes?
23:28:57 <ehird> Mac OS 9.1, dude. :P
23:29:00 <ehird> I did mention it wasn't unicode.
23:29:16 <pikhq> But, but Plan 9 was doing UTF-8 in like 1990!
23:30:42 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Yes, I know. That's half the joke.
23:30:43 <mycroftiv> pikhq: ken thompson (mr. unix himself) and rob pike came up with utf-8 implementation of unicode on a napkin at a restaurant
23:31:18 <mycroftiv> pikhq: sorry, im a plan9 AI software myself, im still learning to 'get the joke' in IRC, i will report this misunderstanding to my programmer
23:31:31 <mycroftiv> he is working on improving my understanding of jokes
23:31:48 <pikhq> mycroftiv: My apologies, good sir. How comes the singularity?
23:32:09 <mycroftiv> we have the blueprints for the matrioshka brains available on the grid
23:33:21 <mycroftiv> we plan to start large scale disassembly of the lunar surface to create computronium and begin orbital assembly of the first exa-scale neural nets within 14 stochastic-social cycle units
23:41:54 <ehird> mycroftiv: just hire some demoscene guys sheesh
23:42:01 <ehird> they'll have it running on just all the world's supercomputers in no time
23:42:28 <mycroftiv> it already runs on IBM's blue gene, you know that?
23:42:37 <ehird> i meant the singularity
23:54:41 <AnMaster> <irclehird> AnMaster: how much do i need to bribe you to re-link that .sit? <-- back
23:54:48 <ehird> all the disks are writing!
23:54:55 <ehird> just had to bad it to the exact length
23:54:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you do to make it work
23:55:31 <ehird> AnMaster: used the Make Debian Floppy utility to make sure they don't mount, make them read-only after writing so that the boot stuff isn't erased by Mac OS
23:55:38 <ehird> just padded them out to exact lengths
23:55:46 <ehird> 1.2 to 1.44 and 1.6 to… more 1.6
23:55:54 <ehird> (1.6*1000*1024, like how 1.44*1000*1024 is done)
23:56:04 <ehird> shit, the 1.6 failed :(
23:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, MacOS change the floppies itself?!
23:56:31 <AnMaster> ehird, mac changes stuff a lot
23:56:44 <ehird> mh so i have everything but net-drivers
23:58:55 * ehird tries another disk just in case
00:00:43 <ehird> It worked this time!
00:00:51 <AnMaster> ehird, kay. Floppies do get bad over time
00:01:54 <ehird> next step is installing!
00:01:57 <ehird> or at least hopefully.
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00:05:43 <ehird> fucking bullshit man, it just ejected it. though the metal cover over the tape went kind of freaky when it came out after writing, and it came out slightly unhinged this time, so I'm gonna try again with a new disk
00:05:46 <ehird> *diskette, I guess I shoulds ay
00:08:41 <AnMaster> it seems ubuntu uses "apparmor" which is similar to selinux...
00:09:23 <oerjan> en apparma, apparman, apparmor, apparmorna
00:09:37 <ehird> tbh it's easy to do a capability based security system if you have a system-wide "file open" function, for instance
00:09:39 <ehird> that asks the user what file to open
00:09:44 <ehird> just give the app access to that file
00:10:00 <ehird> the only reason it isn't done is because we have this weird notion of apps having the freedom to use whatever file entry method they want
00:10:20 <ehird> kind of like letting a house in a street use whatever water, electricity and sewer lines it wants, at the expense of all the other houses
00:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure the analogy works...
00:11:11 <ehird> because you don't want it to be true :p
00:12:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean it should ask every time it wants to open it's preference file? Or every time you are searching a directory tree recursively?
00:12:20 <AnMaster> I can see some reasons why "ask user for every access which file he/she wants" does have some issues
00:12:23 <ehird> no, it should be able to get at a preference directory free from the OS
00:12:34 <ehird> searching a directory tree, obviously opening a directory gives it recursive rights
00:12:46 <AnMaster> ehird, what about a web server then
00:12:56 <AnMaster> do you want people sitting at it all the time?
00:13:00 <ehird> give it rights to the directories it serves
00:13:10 <ehird> you're thinking about my "idea" way too stupidly just to put it down
00:13:18 <ehird> obviously there's a method for running software with access to N directories
00:13:22 <ehird> i'm referring to a user-facing app
00:13:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that makes kind of sense.
00:13:30 <ehird> where you can handle 90% of the cases this way
00:13:42 <AnMaster> not sure how command line apps would fit into it
00:13:44 <ehird> ofc the solution is s/files/objects/ and make it even more fine grained with arbitrary permission schemes, but
00:14:40 <ehird> in addition having a "gimme a directory to put my stuff in" also lets you configure it
00:14:45 <ehird> e.g. "put all stuff in ~/config"
00:14:49 <ehird> or "put this on this drive and that on that drive"
00:14:53 <ehird> that's what abstraction gets you
00:15:07 <ehird> (as opposed to current hacks that involve LD_PRELOAD and overriding the opening of dotfiles)
00:19:05 <AnMaster> ehird, um... how would it find the setting next time it starts?
00:19:14 <AnMaster> also... I never heard of such hacks
00:19:19 <ehird> uhh, by calling the give_this_app_a_config() function?
00:19:31 <ehird> anyway, let's try booting again
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00:19:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, <oerjan> en apparma, apparman, apparmor, apparmorna <-- huh?
00:20:26 <pikhq> Oerjan'sconjugating.
00:21:12 <AnMaster> and that is some strange grammar there pikhq :P
00:21:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: you mean that's not how to decline "apparma" in swedish?
00:22:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, I never even heard of that word in Swedish
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00:22:31 <ehird> ejected it then gave me the bad floppy symbol
00:23:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ouch. Btw how does one list what files an installed package contain in ubuntu from command line? I suspect apt-cache but can't figure out what parameters
00:23:20 <ehird> apt something something something
00:23:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: i suggest you look closer at the third item
00:24:05 <ehird> welcome to the 90s
00:24:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: man page
00:24:08 <ehird> humour is over there
00:25:38 <ehird> AnMaster: the "boot floppy" volume is uhh
00:25:39 <ehird> how shall i put this
00:25:43 <ehird> interestingly devoid of files.
00:26:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I seriously have no clue. Try to make a cd bootable like the install cd
00:26:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it will be faster
00:26:34 <ehird> but nobody's done that before.
00:26:41 <oerjan> in the 00s, we disapprove of "... NOT." BUT.
00:26:45 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway check the floppy under linux with badblocks
00:27:16 <ehird> shake the indigo belt of temerity!
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00:35:59 <ehird> okay, starting from scratch
00:36:04 <ehird> let's think of the best way to go about this…
00:36:23 <ehird> Hi Dan. The problem is that the "Old World" Macs cannot boot a Linux CD. You'll have to get the BootX program from here:
00:36:23 <ehird> http://penguinppc.org/historical/benh/BootX_1.2.2.sit
00:36:27 <ehird> bootx can boot CDs?
00:36:31 <ehird> LET'S HAVE THAT SHIT!
00:37:49 <pikhq> I'm reminded of when I tried getting Linux on an old-world Mac.
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00:37:57 <pikhq> Unfortunately, its OS install was nuked.
00:38:21 <pikhq> So, no BootX. And a notable lack of floppies.
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00:47:41 <AnMaster> ehird, old mac runs very unprotected right? Like, no memory protection
00:48:00 <ehird> You could do that, but it'd require programming.
00:48:03 <ehird> Programming is fun
00:48:07 <AnMaster> possibly load it as the first extension during boot
00:48:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Possibly, man!
00:48:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oldworld Macs are on a PowerPC.
00:48:19 <pikhq> They have memory protection.
00:48:21 <AnMaster> to avoid hardware too much messed up
00:48:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, MacOS doesn't run protected memory though iirc
00:48:32 <pikhq> And can boot directly to Linux.
00:48:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but that's not because of hardware.
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00:55:19 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, I think that's basically what bootx does
00:55:33 <ehird> let me make an alias to my cd rom drive where it looks and try it
00:56:29 <AnMaster> ehird, alias for the cdrom you mean
00:56:39 <AnMaster> iirc inserting a different cdrom won't work for the alias
00:56:42 <ehird> an alias pointing to my cd rom drive
00:56:47 <ehird> in the system folder where bootx looks for its kernel
00:56:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well right. But insert the right cd first
00:57:00 <ehird> prolly won't work :P
00:57:12 <ehird> bollocks, doesn't seem to have mounted it
00:57:45 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what bootx is for
00:57:56 <ehird> lemme read the debian install docs
00:57:58 <ehird> might enlighten me
00:59:38 <ehird> i love hacking like this
00:59:48 <ehird> there's something wonderful about using modern methods to hack things on to something so old
01:00:10 <ehird> "OldWorld PowerMacs will not boot a Debian CD, because OldWorld computers relied on a Mac OS ROM CD boot driver to be present on the CD, and a free-software version of this driver is not available. All OldWorld systems have floppy drives, so use the floppy drive to launch the installer, and then point the installer to the CD for the needed files."
01:00:21 <ehird> [[If your system doesn't boot directly from CD-ROM, you can still use the CD-ROM to install the system. On NewWorlds, you can also use an OpenFirmware command to boot from the CD-ROM manually. Follow the instructions in Section 5.1.2.2, “Booting NewWorld Macs from OpenFirmware” for booting from the hard disk, except use the path to yaboot on the CD at the OF prompt, such as]]
01:00:23 <ehird> stop taunting me fuckers
01:00:34 <ehird> 5.1.2.1. Booting OldWorld PowerMacs from MacOS
01:00:35 <ehird> If you set up BootX in Section 4.4.1, “Hard Disk Installer Booting for OldWorld Macs”, you can use it to boot into the installation system. Double click the BootX application icon. Click on the Options button and select Use Specified RAM Disk. This will give you the chance to select the ramdisk.image.gz file. You may need to select the No Video Driver checkbox, depending on your hardware. Then click the Linux button to shut down MacOS and launch the inst
01:00:39 <ehird> i might do it that way
01:00:42 <ehird> but i really want to enter via openfirmware
01:00:47 <ehird> You will have already placed the vmlinux, initrd.gz, yaboot, and yaboot.conf files at the root level of your HFS partition in Section 4.4.2, “Hard Disk Installer Booting for NewWorld Macs”. You will now have to boot into OpenFirmware (see Section 3.6.1, “Invoking OpenFirmware”). At the prompt, type
01:00:47 <ehird> 0 > boot hd:x,yaboot
01:00:50 <ehird> Well no shit, sherlock!
01:00:53 <ehird> I'll have me some of that!
01:01:09 <ehird> AnMaster: do you think that the debian installer will be able to wipe and install on to the disk it's on?
01:01:39 <ehird> 5.1.2.2. Booting NewWorld Macs from OpenFirmware
01:01:42 <ehird> it's only for new world
01:01:45 <ehird> fuck ass bitch shitting.
01:02:03 <ehird> new world gets all the chicks
01:02:18 <AnMaster> ehird, you might want to try yellowdog
01:02:24 <ehird> fuckers never zapped their pram
01:02:27 <ehird> AnMaster: new world.
01:02:27 <pikhq> Not to mention the firmware with a bzimage loader builtin.
01:02:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I zapped pram on newworld
01:02:40 <ehird> no you didn't kiddo
01:02:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, really? WHERE CAN I ACCESS IT
01:03:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: OpenFirmware
01:03:11 <ehird> one more idea before i try bootx
01:03:35 <ehird> "ext3 & quik - avoid headaches by keeping a ext2 partition for quik "
01:03:39 <ehird> sweet, I'm going to be using ext2
01:04:06 <ehird> ok, i'm gonna boot the installer via bootx
01:04:30 <ehird> The boot-floppy-hfs floppy uses miBoot to launch Linux installation, but miBoot cannot easily be used for hard disk booting. BootX, launched from MacOS, supports booting from files placed on the hard disk. BootX can also be used to dual-boot MacOS and Linux after your Debian installation is complete. For the Performa 6360, it appears that quik cannot make the hard disk bootable. So BootX is required on that model.
01:04:36 <ehird> quik can do it maybe possibly
01:04:41 <ehird> no wait dammit i can't use a ram disk
01:04:44 <ehird> my ram isn't big enough
01:06:21 <ehird> AnMaster: pikhq: seems like the best method so far is "boot up minimal thingy somehow, then launch that into the CD/tell it to use the CD"
01:06:46 <ehird> well i can't use floppies as the thingy
01:06:46 <pikhq> BTW, your RAM is big enough for the initial RAM disk.
01:06:53 <pikhq> It fits on one of those two floppies. ;)
01:06:53 <ehird> pikhq: oh? how much does it require?
01:07:02 <ehird> also, i don't want to have bootx as the final thingy
01:07:09 <ehird> i want it to boot directly from quik
01:07:26 <ehird> old world macs have openfirmware too
01:07:43 <ehird> either i'll bootx and then use quik after it's installed
01:07:47 <ehird> or quik from the start
01:07:47 <pikhq> Then why do they suck so much?
01:08:43 <pikhq> ehird: Check to see if your Mac has NuBus.
01:08:48 <ehird> pikhq: it doesn't, pci here
01:08:52 <pikhq> If it has NuBus, it doesn't have OpenFirmware.
01:08:55 <pikhq> Okay, then Quik works.
01:08:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you access openfirmware
01:09:09 <ehird> i'm just wondering whether it's worth the fuss
01:09:18 <ehird> pikhq: do you think the debian installer can wipe the drive it's stored on
01:09:19 <ehird> then install to that?
01:09:22 <ehird> AnMaster: command-option-o-f
01:09:47 <ehird> [01:09] ehird: pikhq: do you think the debian installer can wipe the drive it's stored on
01:09:47 <ehird> [01:09] ehird: then install to that?
01:09:57 <ehird> "Quik is an Open Firmware-based bootloader for Old World Macintosh"
01:10:02 <ehird> "Because it's very dependent on Open Firmware, and because the Open Firmware on Old World Macintosh is very buggy and difficult to work with"
01:10:17 <ehird> Where has this conception that OF = new world come from?
01:10:42 <AnMaster> from using nubus macs and then jumping to newworld ones
01:11:00 <ehird> Anyway, pikhq, answerate my question. :P (Or I'll ask #debian!)
01:11:19 <ehird> AnMaster: were nubus/newworld beige boxes quite loud?
01:11:22 <ehird> the old world ppcs are
01:11:40 <ehird> well i guess i can't judge with the expansion board and all
01:11:42 <ehird> AnMaster: fan noise
01:11:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: were nubus/newworld beige boxes quite loud? <-- what?
01:11:55 <ehird> as in, either/both
01:12:10 <ehird> not a machine with both
01:12:17 <pikhq> ehird: Sure it can. The bootloader loads the Debian installer to RAM.
01:12:19 <AnMaster> ehird, my newworld ibook first generation wasn't very loud, to begin with
01:12:28 <AnMaster> the harddrive is *really* loud nowdays though
01:12:32 <ehird> pikhq: does it download the packages to RAM?
01:12:37 <ehird> AnMaster: well laptops are a special case
01:12:38 <ehird> also it's not beige
01:12:42 <ehird> after the imac everything became nice
01:13:07 <pikhq> ehird: No, it downloads the packages to HD after the partitioning and formatting steps.
01:13:13 <AnMaster> ehird, the old performa 6500 (or around there) I had was not very loud apart from the built in crt whine
01:13:23 <ehird> pikhq: Cool. Now, I wonder if lenny has one of these ramdisk images.
01:13:46 <ehird> pikhq: not a ramdisk
01:13:51 <ehird> i should just put the thingy
01:13:58 <ehird> then boot in from open firmware or quik or something
01:14:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I can't really hear the crt whine over the fans
01:14:09 <ehird> pikhq: installation thing
01:14:16 <ehird> i'm not doing bootx
01:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't any fan noise on that one
01:14:43 <pikhq> Uh, Debian's installer works by loading a RAM disk with the installer in it.
01:14:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I loved the cd noise on it though
01:14:50 <pikhq> For *all* the installation methods.
01:14:54 <AnMaster> ehird, as in... you heard the seeking but not the spinning
01:15:06 <AnMaster> ehird, which was *awesome* when it was loading myst
01:15:07 <ehird> pikhq: yes, but the bootx method has a separate ramdisk file that you download
01:15:12 <ehird> AnMaster: heh I have a myst disc here
01:15:21 <ehird> what does cd seeking even sound like
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01:15:36 <ehird> pikhq: small or tiny cd?
01:15:42 <ehird> i'm inclined to go with tiny
01:15:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it was like 2x or 4x, so you just heard the head thingy going back/forth
01:16:00 <pikhq> ehird: Small has a GUI installer, tiny has a text-mode installer.
01:16:14 <ehird> so probably Not For Me
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01:16:48 <ehird> pikhq: i can't just boot in from openfirmware because it's elf
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01:17:56 <ehird> i mean i assume openfirmware wants some wacky mac kernel format
01:18:39 <ehird> so what i need on my other HFS disk is:
01:18:44 <ehird> other stuff it needs
01:18:47 <ehird> (installation stuff)
01:18:50 <ehird> then boot in via HFS
01:19:07 <ehird> http://penguinppc.org/bootloaders/quik/ ;; kind of… lacks any info on how to insatll it
01:19:47 * ehird claps, it's distributed as a fucking rpm
01:19:49 * ehird clicks quik for mac os
01:20:41 <ehird> okay, a terminal-based installer
01:20:44 <ehird> let's hope this doesn't brick my mac
01:20:52 <ehird> "No unix partitions found!"
01:23:45 <ehird> okay, so I need to make a folder called Linux Kernels inside my system folder
01:23:54 <ehird> but i'll do the ramdisk
01:24:24 <ehird> ok, ramdisk.img.gz has to go in the system folder
01:24:52 <ehird> where the hell do i get it
01:25:47 <ehird> pikhq: gee, thanks captain obvious :P
01:28:01 <ehird> pikhq: the relevant install manual chapter references woody.
01:28:09 <ehird> methinks this is kind of … unsupported.
01:28:59 <ehird> boot.img.gz looks positive
01:29:45 <ehird> pikhq: d'you think it'll work?
01:30:12 <ehird> i wonder if i need this 0.5k boot.msg file
01:30:29 <pikhq> That's for isolinux and friends.
01:31:08 <ehird> nah, it was used in the yaboot.conf
01:31:55 <ehird> bootx would count as a friend then
01:31:58 <ehird> the networking on this thing is so slow
01:32:02 <ehird> it gets like 30KB/sec
01:32:05 <ehird> i get 700KB/sec here
01:34:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I had to uninstall Helvetica Neue... it causes ubuntu's website to look shit when installed
01:34:26 <AnMaster> due to not rendering well with fontconfig there
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01:38:05 <ehird> Now to rename boot.img.gz to ramdisk.img.gz, start BootX, and watch it break.
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01:49:58 <ehird> bootx boots into "Welcome to Linux"
01:50:01 <ehird> preparing boot params
01:50:12 <ehird> then it just sits there
01:50:23 <ehird> i think it's found the kernel but not where to go next, y'know?
01:57:44 <ehird> i can't use the hd thing
01:57:48 <ehird> cause it has no hd
01:57:52 <ehird> i need a self-contained kernel thing
01:57:56 <ehird> pikhq: so a floppy image right?
01:58:05 <ehird> the stuff from a floppy image
01:58:52 <ehird> what do i do without initrd, I wonder
01:59:02 <ehird> initrd is the ram disk
02:05:32 <ehird> time to try bootx!
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02:08:10 <ehird> i gotsit almost methinks
02:08:17 <ehird> the kernel boots but doesn't go into init
02:08:18 <pikhq> ehird: Why are you disconnecting every time you try to boot your old Mac?
02:08:22 <ehird> so that means it can't find it, right
02:08:26 <ehird> pikhq: it's the feeling of it
02:08:35 <ehird> i put the imac to sleep
02:08:40 <ehird> i think the kernel boots up just fine
02:08:44 <ehird> it just doesn't see the ramdisk, right?
02:08:55 <ehird> is there a kernel parameter meaning "oi, look here you ejit"?
02:09:12 <pikhq> Or it might not see init in the ramdisk.
02:09:21 <pikhq> Maybe do init=/initrd
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02:11:21 <ehird> pikhq: "Kernel command line: ramdisk_size=8192 init=/initrd" but it still stops after "PID hash table entries: 512 (order: 9, 2048 bytes)
02:12:09 <ehird> pikhq: Not just /dev/ram?
02:12:22 <pikhq> More than one ramdisk.
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02:16:29 <ehird> I seriously think it can't locate the ramdisk.
02:16:48 <ehird> I'll take a photo of the screen?
02:18:22 <ehird> It just rebooted out of sheer boredom.
02:18:36 <ehird> Snapped the screen, though.
02:19:10 <ehird> pikhq: http://imgur.com/YEvwo.jpg; very WarGames looking.
02:20:30 <pikhq> #debian, and I got not a clue.
02:20:49 <pikhq> I didn't know it was possible for the kernel to lock up there.
02:21:13 <ehird> pikhq: Mm. Interestingly, there's a RAM Disk in Mac OS; it's empty and has 60.8 MB free.
02:24:15 <ehird> pikhq: However, my RAM disk is... not that big.
02:24:23 <ehird> I think the RAM disk is set to 8KB— wait, no, it'll be 8MB.
02:25:10 <ehird> It's measured in KB
02:25:40 <GregorR> Whoo, 1600 mungers since qwantz.com linked to me.
02:25:51 <ehird> That's not much for freakin' Dinosaur Comics.
02:26:05 <GregorR> But it's a lot for codu :P
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02:27:46 <ehird> pikhq: /dev/ram is symlinked to /dev/ram1 on Red Hat, apparently.
02:27:49 <ehird> Maybe I should try ram1.
02:28:43 <ehird> pikhq: adb suggested ramdisk_size=16384; did zilch
02:29:50 <ehird> /dev/ram1 helps not
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02:41:57 <ehird> pikhq: i may have figuredified it out
02:42:31 <ehird> put the ramdisk thingy in the linux kernels folder
02:42:35 <ehird> so they're <33 bffs
02:43:07 <ehird> instead of the ramdisk in the system folder
02:43:12 <ehird> and the kernel in its subdirectory, the linux kernels folder
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02:46:42 <ehird> Alas, poor Linux. You stubborn bastard. Do something different, at least!
02:47:28 <ehird> pikhq: perhaps it is trying to load /initrd?
02:47:35 <ehird> where / has no well-defined meaning here
02:48:19 <pikhq> Well, it should be, after mounting /.
02:49:12 <ehird> Is there a way to make the kernel spew out its messages slower so I get a chance to read them?
02:49:57 <pikhq> Well, there is, but it's absurd.
02:50:12 <pikhq> Hook up another computer to the serial port and start up gdb.
02:50:41 <ehird> Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
02:51:08 <ehird> looks like i'm not sleeping tonight
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03:01:59 <ehird> pikhq: With all this fuss, I conclude the only sane computer must be purely functional.
03:02:07 <ehird> I don't know why this helps, but it'd soothe my soul.
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03:07:39 <ehird> pikhq: OK, I conclude that the problem comes down to: The kernel works absolutely fine. It just doesn't mount the ramdisk.
03:08:24 <ehird> pikhq: Theory: This is because it's an OS X ramdisk, and Linux don't done know none of 'dat stuff.
03:08:57 <pikhq> Inquiry: why did you think that would work?
03:09:28 <pikhq> I strongly suspect the *floppy disk* image would work.
03:09:38 <ehird> pikhq: (a) because that's what BootX does.
03:09:51 <ehird> (b) they're an .img, not a kernel or ramdisk
03:09:58 <ehird> physical diskettes don't boot
03:10:14 <pikhq> The second floppy disk image is the ramdisk.
03:10:39 <ehird> pikhq: I'm using the tiny cd one.
03:10:45 <ehird> Still doesn't change how BootX mounts it.
03:11:07 <ehird> Asked; was mostly ignored.
03:11:22 <pikhq> Oh, right. Debian.
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03:19:41 <oerjan> `translatefrom hu azstal
03:20:01 <oerjan> `translatefrom hu asztal
03:21:39 <oerjan> `translatefrom no Skjønner denne greia noe som helst, egentlig?
03:21:57 <ehird> `translatefromto no en Skjonner
03:22:08 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en asztal
03:22:25 <HackEgo> bin/translate \ bin/translatefromto \ bin/translateto
03:23:29 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en Skjønner denne greia noe som helst, egentlig?
03:23:31 <HackEgo> SkjĂ ¸ nner this thing anything, really?
03:23:55 <oerjan> well, not unicode, that's for sure
03:26:23 <pikhq> `translatefromto no en Skjonner denne greia noe som helst, egentlig?
03:26:24 <HackEgo> Do this thing anything, really?
03:26:36 * oerjan would have wanted a "what so ever" inside there...
03:27:34 <oerjan> `translatefromto en no Does this thing understand anything what so ever, really?
03:27:36 <HackEgo> Betyr dette forstĺr alt hva sĺ noensinne, egentlig?
03:28:46 <pikhq> THE LS ARE DOTTED.
03:29:12 <oerjan> `translatefromto en no Does this thing understand anything whatsoever, really?
03:29:14 <HackEgo> Betyr dette forstĺr noe overhodet, egentlig?
03:29:22 <pikhq> Why can'ṫ we jusṫ doṫ our ṫs and cross our ɨs?
03:29:24 <ehird> pikhq: ´tted actually.
03:30:23 * oerjan checks the logs for dotted l's
03:30:32 <oerjan> O_O those are supposed to be å's
03:31:49 <pikhq> ṪHERE. L̇, BƗṪCHES. ;)
03:32:22 <pikhq> BTW, ZOMG. I can... Double-cross my ŧs.
03:32:59 <pikhq> And double-doŧ my ïs.
03:39:36 * ehird decides to try out Debian sarge.
03:39:43 <ehird> I doubt more recent things will work smoothly for the install process.
03:42:02 <oerjan> i think debian sarge would be a major error, and could in general cause corporal harm
03:42:17 <ehird> it's a toy-story based naming system actually.
03:42:56 <ehird> The unstable release is "sid". :-)
03:44:02 <pikhq> Didn't Ian work at Pixar?
03:45:17 <ehird> Hmph; the only minimal CD for sarge is 2.4-kernel.
03:45:26 <ehird> But the "non-minimal" CD is just a few meg. :P
03:48:33 <ehird> Aha — I think I should be using boot.img.gz, not initrd.gz.
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03:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: that MPW disk would be appreciated.
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04:50:32 * ehird sets the unused 1.19GB drive as virtual RAM
04:50:36 <ehird> wow, it's screamingly fast!
04:51:05 <ehird> as in… actually usable now
06:09:24 <EgoBot> 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [214]
06:17:48 <ehird> CRTs that don't come with a "reset settings" option suck.
06:51:30 <ehird> There's a port of Firefox to Mac OS 9.
06:51:35 <ehird> Recent. Like, this year.
06:51:37 <ehird> I'm downloading it now.
07:03:50 <ehird> Correction: It seems to be the suite.
07:04:57 <ehird> Rendering is… insanely fast.
07:05:31 <ehird> Like "once Wikipedia's loaded, it renders instantly" fast.
07:22:21 <GregorR> http://codu.org/myavatar.gif wtf
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07:26:45 <ehirdzilla> what with the whole memory-hogging infrastructure and slow javascript running on top of a 300mhz processor
07:27:07 <ehird> GregorR: You're Gregor, apparently.
07:28:01 <ehirdzilla> this is slower than windows 7 is in my os x vm :D
07:30:29 <ehirdzilla> so hey guys it's 7:29 am i'm on an ancient mac starved for cpu, ram and disk running a gigantic sprawling mess of C++ code with a slow javascript implementation interfacing on to that running complex code which then changes an xml document tree which is then processed to meticulously redraw and/or use native widgets in a window.
07:39:12 <GregorR> The future came and passed.
07:40:01 <ehirdzilla> by saturday i'll be buying this for $2,700
07:40:14 <ehirdzilla> and uninstalling the debian i installed on it in the future to put mac os on it instead
07:42:45 <ehirdzilla> poincare conjecture is like what timecube is to internet explorer
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08:04:55 <ehirdzilla> ===CTCP version reply Chatzilla 0.8.23 [Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:9.0) Clecko/20090628 Classilla/CFM] from ehirdzilla
08:05:12 <ehirdzilla> That way, everyone would cry "Fake!" :)
08:19:09 -!- FireFly has joined.
08:20:00 <ehirdzilla> put your DS irc bot up and i'll trigger it with my PPC PowerMac :-P
08:20:20 <FireFly> Well, it is non-existant for now
08:21:00 <ehirdzilla> mozilla suite (seamonkey i guess) for mac os 9
08:22:00 <ehirdzilla> rendering is fast and way more accurate than ie 5.1
08:22:35 <FireFly> Ah, right, there's no Safari for you in OS 9
08:22:48 <FireFly> I was a bit wtf'd at first when I saw you running IE on that photo
08:23:03 <ehirdzilla> oh and scrolling's jerky. but we are talking a 120mhz machine that was upgraded to a 300mhz g3 w/ 96mb of ram
08:23:31 <FireFly> I played around with Damn Small Linux on a 48MB RAM laptop a couple of years ago
08:23:54 <FireFly> It was actually usable.. definitely more than the Win95 it originally ran, at least
08:24:00 <ehirdzilla> i've made the empty 1.19gb (same size as system disk) drive into "Auxiliary Memory"
08:24:14 <ehirdzilla> and set 990mb of it (the most it'd allow) as virtual memory
08:24:44 <ehirdzilla> then set the ram disk to 8064kb and moved the browser's cache to it
08:25:05 <ehirdzilla> then left the disk cache as the inferred 2816kb
08:25:27 <ehirdzilla> difference between many seconds between it reacting to a window switch and doing it in less than a second
08:25:44 <ehirdzilla> rendering changed from unusably slow to just tedious
08:26:04 <ehirdzilla> os 9.1 is prolly a bit too much for this machine to do lotsa stuff smoothly but *meh*
08:26:06 <FireFly> Yeah, being able to use an application is always a plus
08:27:01 <ehirdzilla> oh, and classilla uses 80.1mb of ram constantly because classic mac os doesn't/didn't have dynamic memory allocation
08:27:10 <ehirdzilla> of course, this means that swapping etc. behaviour is pretty suck
08:27:29 <ehirdzilla> the actual ram drops out as statistically insignificant
08:27:37 <ehirdzilla> i'm sure it's fast enough, it's a QUANTUM FIREBALL drive after all
08:28:32 <ehirdzilla> but this is really quite usable, apart from the ~1.5s delay from clicking the chatzilla window to it putting text in the grey area
08:29:04 <FireFly> "coöperative" just looks... odd
08:29:20 <FireFly> When you're used to reading 'ö' as a character, with its own pronounciation
08:29:35 <ehirdzilla> it's english's only accent, and I'm fucking proud to flaunt it!
08:30:28 <FireFly> Well, I did know about naïve
08:31:30 <FireFly> Doesn't the diaeresis signify non-diphthong sound, or something like that?
08:32:13 <FireFly> "Dutch uses the same mark in a similar way, (for example coëfficiënt), but as with English there is now a preference for hyphenation - so zeeëend (seaduck) is now spelled zee-eend"
08:32:32 <ehirdzilla> FireFly, it's used to denote that two consecutive vowels do not have the same pronunciation
08:33:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: that MPW disk would be appreciated. <-- right. I'm just going out, but as soon as I get back I will look at it
08:33:33 -!- FireFly has left (?).
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08:33:47 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, this will be in maybe 1-2 hours
08:33:58 <FireFly> Accidentally hitted the closing x with the mouse
08:34:30 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, well I can try now
08:34:37 <AnMaster> I do have some time before I leave
08:34:57 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, depends on how long it takes
08:35:23 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, sure it isn't available for download from apple?
08:35:29 <ehirdzilla> doesn't making an .img consist of dragging the floppy to disk copy and picking a file name? :P
08:35:44 <ehirdzilla> all with different components and shit
08:35:54 <AnMaster> <ehirdzilla> AnMaster, it is[0014]
08:36:18 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, kay. I *can't* interpret that
08:36:25 <ehirdzilla> (chatzilla on mozilla on mac os 9, wayoohh)
08:36:44 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah shows up as just "it is" here
08:36:53 <ehird> ï in naïve worked though
08:38:26 <ehirdzilla> AnMaster, switching navigator/chatzilla window
08:38:41 <ehirdzilla> the undrawn part of the cz window stays grey for a few seconds
08:39:05 <ehirdzilla> although cz->web is faster than web->cz
08:39:37 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, how many MHz did you say?
08:39:51 <AnMaster> and: did you manage with linux?
08:40:36 <ehirdzilla> the g3 chip in here is 300mhz; the original powerpc something-or-other was 120mhz. 96mb of physical ram... and i put the empty 1.19gb drive as virtual memory (well, 990mb is all they allowed, but)
08:40:41 <ehirdzilla> also, I'm planning to start again from scratch today
08:41:12 <ehirdzilla> i have an 8064kb ram disk for the classilla (seamonkey thingy ported to mac os 9; recent) cache
08:41:32 <ehirdzilla> and the os has deemed that 2816kb is a jolly good size for the disk cache
08:43:26 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, my MPW dir is 119 MB
08:43:47 <AnMaster> may be some un-needed stuff in there
08:44:16 <ehirdzilla> i expect mpw puts like system extensions, no?
08:44:21 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, as I said: I only have it installed already. Also this mac doesn't have a floppy
08:44:44 <ehirdzilla> AnMaster, is the networking really slow on yours too?
08:45:04 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, well, not really. Just a bit slow.
08:45:13 <AnMaster> it is 100 mbps ethernet after all
08:45:20 <ehirdzilla> but i get like 10/20/30KB/s instead of 500/600/700KB/s
08:45:33 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, yours *is* a bit older
08:45:55 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, anyway, if you want resedit or macbugs or similar I can package them up
08:46:10 <ehirdzilla> not particularly, i'm mainly interested in the progenitoring
08:46:21 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, then you *want* macbugs
08:46:25 <AnMaster> it helps when you are programming
08:46:31 <AnMaster> since you keep crashing the OS
08:46:41 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, yes. but system level one
08:46:46 <ehirdzilla> AnMaster, and it stops the OS crashing?
08:46:56 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, well, sometimes you can recover from it
08:46:58 <ehirdzilla> i doubt that's easy to recover from vs waiting the minute or so it takes to cold reboot
08:47:19 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, no journaled fs btw :P
08:48:11 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, yep. OS 9 does. Oh and I have a defragmenter for it. Called "Norton SpeedDisk"
08:48:38 <AnMaster> I know how you can run that standalone
08:49:01 <ehirdzilla> AnMaster, the virtual memory isn't actual files
08:49:59 <ehirdzilla> anyway if your program crashes the whole OS when it goes wrong the obvious thing to do is to write a lisp interpreter then program in that.
08:50:52 <ehirdzilla> right well you can't defrag a drive of one file much.
08:51:10 <ehirdzilla> i doubt it's putting blocks all over the place when it has the whole drive, more or less, to itself
08:52:10 <AnMaster> hm you could boot from install cd. Wasn't it 8.6 or later?
08:52:25 <AnMaster> then copy the defrag app the to the second disk
08:52:36 <ehirdzilla> my system disk doesn't appear to seek much
08:54:44 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, so do you want my mpw installed or will you download it?
08:54:45 <ehirdzilla> i'd like to soup up a 68k mac sometime :-)
08:54:57 <ehirdzilla> well installed would kinda be nicer since it's in pieces on the apple site
08:55:05 <ehirdzilla> i don't want to install 30 things individually
08:55:07 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, pieces in what way?
08:57:44 <AnMaster> I will copy it over with the personal web sharing crappy web server I guess
08:59:08 <ehirdzilla> they're killing that shit off in favour of mobileme
09:01:01 <ehirdzilla> replaced it with a popup folder thing with application aliases in
09:06:55 <Slereah> http://zip.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1248794244319.png
09:07:45 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, creating disk image...
09:09:49 <AnMaster> ehirdzilla, looks like it will take quite a while
09:10:50 <ehirdzilla> wow, apparently http://system7today.com/ actually runs on 7.6
09:11:11 <ehirdzilla> say what you want 'bout those guys, they sure are consistent
09:11:48 <AnMaster> linux supports appleshare iirc
09:12:23 <ehirdzilla> in this case appleshare is being used to refer to server software
09:16:25 <AnMaster> well... I'm sorry but I have to leave now. hopefully it will be done when I get back so I can upload it then
09:29:10 <oklopol> ehird: btw the nyt ie theme is perfect
09:29:21 <oklopol> reading wikipedia is now actually a pleasant experience
09:29:24 <ehird> the new york times ie theme? xD
09:30:40 <oklopol> i guess it must be swedish
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09:57:37 <oklopol> didn't you listen to liszt, X?
10:38:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure how to *.hqx without *.sit too
10:41:13 <oklopol> please switch to a better client
10:41:52 <oklopol> you know something modern like MIRC
10:42:45 <oklopol> or did you see my question and just didn't understand it?
10:42:59 <oklopol> well, it's only directed at you if the answer is yes
10:43:00 <AnMaster> I didn't see you highlight me anywhere
10:43:11 <oklopol> "didn't you listen to liszt, X?"
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10:44:51 <oklopol> so, you've now seen me ask it twice?
10:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I have the file copied to my PC. Tell me when you are back so I can transfer it somehow
10:45:17 <AnMaster> I will be out during the evening btw
10:45:30 <oklopol> AnMaster: did you see it in the backlog?
10:45:40 <oklopol> i said it just before you joined
10:45:45 <oklopol> so if you didn't see it, get a better client
10:45:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes I saw it in scrollback...
10:46:11 <oklopol> and you didn't realize it was directed at you?
10:46:17 <oklopol> weird, you've mentioned liszt to me
10:46:17 <AnMaster> "Upload any file. Must be less than 50 megabytes. Files will be kept in a rotating pool of space, and may be removed at any time."'
10:46:34 <ehird> AnMaster: rapidshare.de
10:46:42 <AnMaster> ehird, dcc then rather than that crap
10:46:45 <oklopol> i should really communicate more clearly to AnMaster
10:46:49 <ehird> too slow; didn't bother.
10:47:15 <oklopol> i just don't like having trivial conversations trivially
10:47:26 <AnMaster> ehird, uploading to there would be just as slow wouldn't it?
10:47:29 <oklopol> why use a retarded language like english if you want to be efficient
10:47:42 <ehird> AnMaster: not ime, but fine, give it a go
10:47:43 <AnMaster> ehird, same upload speed for me
10:48:16 <AnMaster> * Offering ToEhird.img.hqx to ehird
10:48:54 <ehird> too probablyrouter; didn't getenoughsleeptotryandfix
10:49:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it is *I* who have to open a port to serve the file
10:50:09 <AnMaster> ehird, actually. I blame my router
10:50:17 <AnMaster> I get connection timed out on it's web interface...
10:51:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to upload it somewhere hm...
10:52:17 <AnMaster> ok I found somewhere to put it ehird
10:52:23 <AnMaster> please stand by while it is uploading
10:52:29 <AnMaster> ToEhird.img.hqx 3% 2240KB 88.6KB/s 10:20 ETA
10:57:32 <AnMaster> ehird, please stand by while it is uploading
10:57:51 <oklopol> blah where's oerjan, i have a question about p-adic... i mean... i have cookies for him
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11:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/ToEhird.img.hqx
11:02:55 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me when you downloaded it so I can delete it
11:03:10 <ehird> ToEhird.img.hqx that downloads to ToEhird.img.si
11:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, browser is autounhexing it?
11:03:39 <AnMaster> and yes it is a sit, couldn't hqx it without *.siting it
11:03:56 <AnMaster> didn't have any app for it at least
11:14:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that is the only format I can offer. I'm going afk for a bit, when I reconnect I will not have scrollback because I'm not going to quit this copy of the client (and thus the bouncer won't replay)
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11:28:41 <ehird> pikhq: will woody → sarge actually work?
11:28:46 <ehird> seems it's the last that installs cleanly
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12:15:23 <oerjan> cookies, where? gimme!
12:19:48 <oklopol> alright, these aren't entirely cookies, they are more like, questions about p-adic cookies, although instead of cookies, more like numbers. basically, are those isomorphic to reals? i thought reals, or something having them as a subset, was the only way to complete Q
12:20:33 <oklopol> i haven't seen the formal proof, because this was just a side note where i read it, so i may have misunderstood
12:21:19 <oerjan> nope. the _algebraic_ reals are the only way to complete Q. i think.
12:21:31 <oerjan> all the other reals are just extra stuffing.
12:21:43 <ehird> no, it downloaded weird
12:22:12 <ehird> you can just delete it
12:22:14 <oerjan> those that are the roots of integer/rational polynomials
12:22:54 <oklopol> you don't need C for that?
12:22:58 <oerjan> that's as a field. as an _ordered_ field it's different. the p-adics are not ordered.
12:23:13 <oklopol> oh p-adics aren't ordered?
12:23:26 <oklopol> yes i was talking about the ordered reals
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12:25:13 <oklopol> oh my god i'd love to see the construction of calculus on p-adics
12:25:24 <oklopol> why don't you want to teach me :P
12:25:34 <oerjan> unfortunately i know nothing about that.
12:25:54 <oerjan> except that they have a different metric/distance function.
12:26:19 <oklopol> except the metric seems very weird to me.
12:26:36 <oerjan> it does fulfil the triangle equality.
12:26:41 <oklopol> somehow big numbers are small, and most stuff doesn't seem to get ordered
12:26:48 <oklopol> right, is there a name for such metrics?
12:26:52 <oklopol> oh wait, i should know that
12:26:59 <oerjan> and i assume the p-adics are actually a completion in the metric sense.
12:27:31 <oklopol> what do you mean completion in the metric sense?
12:27:49 <oerjan> that every cauchy sequence converges
12:27:57 <oklopol> yes, it means exactly that
12:28:32 <oklopol> i can't fill that ... but something mathematical like "up to" should be in there
12:28:45 <oklopol> well maybe your in the metric sense
12:29:24 <oklopol> so the metric is considered like some kinda grid on top of the space instead of a function from pairs to distances in that saying... so to speak
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12:49:17 * ehird has 5 floppies that, in theory, will install Debian woody, circa 2002, on an Old World PowerPC Mac.
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12:52:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I won't delete it until you downloaded it
12:53:01 <AnMaster> anyway just wget under OS X and send over network or such
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13:05:03 <ehird> The woody install boots!
13:05:12 <ehird> I am currently using an awful fdisk thingy to badly mangle my disk.
13:07:11 <nooga> it's utterly disgusting
13:07:39 <ehird> nooga lost a drive in a tragic partitioning accident.
13:13:29 <AnMaster> I never had issues with the linux fdisk
13:13:51 <ehird> parted is rather less soul-killing.
13:14:08 <ehird> 144mb enough swap for 96mb of physical ram?
13:14:18 <ehird> or should i go for * 2?
13:14:45 <ehird> only 1.19gb in total after all
13:15:12 * ehird watches woody initialise an ext2 partition
13:15:16 <ehird> Cutting-edge stuff
13:19:10 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc parted has issues marking the right partition type on lvm partitions. But this may be a gparted issue. not sure
13:19:50 <AnMaster> ehird, dist-upgrade to lenny? :D
13:20:33 <AnMaster> wasn't woody the one that was stable for several years (because next release took a long time)
13:20:38 <ehird> AnMaster: No, dist-upgrade to sarge (wow, 3 years just passed). Then dist-upgrade to etch.
13:20:40 <ehird> Then dist-upgrade to lenny.
13:20:43 <ehird> Then dist-upgrade to testing.
13:20:52 <ehird> (or just upgrade; I forget how you switch to testing)
13:21:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what kernel is used on woody
13:21:38 <ehird> Sarge promptly switched to 2.6, breaking everything. :-P
13:21:47 <ehird> There were many major changes in the sarge release, mostly due to the large time it took to freeze and release the distribution. Not only did this release update over 73% of the software shipped in the previous version, but it also included much more software than previous releases, almost doubling in size with 9,000 new packages. A new installer replaced the aging boot-floppies installer with a modular design. This allowed advanced installations (with RAID,
13:24:25 <ehird> XFS and LVM support) including hardware detection, making installations easier for novice users. The installation system also boasted full internationalization support as the software was translated into almost forty languages. An installation manual and comprehensive release notes we
13:24:26 <ehird> re released in ten and fifteen different languages respectively. This release included the efforts of the Debian-Edu/Skolelinux, Debian-Med and Debian-Accessibility sub-projects which boosted the number of educational packages and those with a medical affiliation as well as p
13:24:29 <ehird> ackages designed especially for people with disabilities.[9]
13:25:56 <ehird> What should I hostname this slow but fun Power Macintosh Debian install? :P
13:26:06 <ehird> (AnMaster: No, not "tux".)
13:35:53 <ehird> Aaaand it's downloading and installing the packages.
13:42:28 <ehird> Q: How come homeopath's computers don't have the memories of all the rubbish that's ever been on them, like their remedies?
13:42:32 <ehird> A: They zap the PRAM.
13:42:35 <ehird> (↑↑ WORST JOKE EVER)
13:43:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Welp, I just installed Quik, so now Mac OS 9 is inaccessible to me.
13:43:12 <ehird> Unless I attach a serial cable to use OpenFirmware.
13:43:39 <ehird> time to try out my new debian box!
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13:46:24 <ehird> My new Debian box is great! I only have two complaints:
13:46:26 <ehird> 1. Doesn't boot up any more
13:46:28 <ehird> 2. Could do with some more booting up
13:46:40 <Deewiant> I think that solving 1 will help with 2
13:46:47 <Deewiant> I suggest going for that one first
13:47:00 <ehird> "Because it's very dependent on Open Firmware, and because the Open Firmware on Old World Macintosh is very buggy and difficult to work with, much of the information on this page describes how to work around firmware problems."
13:47:29 <ehird> [[All you see is a black screen, your keyboard does nothing. Or you just get a white screen, some kind of open firmware boot prompt, and your confused.
13:47:29 <ehird> The universal anwser is zap your PRAM (Parameter RAM). Yes, this resets all your boot settings, and messes up your color and networking settings in Mac OS.]]
13:48:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Solving it won't exactly be easy, because it just does the chimes and then sits there without any feedback or input. :P
13:51:47 <ehird> Post-futuristic-baby-carrier-assault, OS 9 is now strating.
13:51:56 <ehird> This does not exactly help me get at my Debian system
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14:02:00 <ehird> "The theoretical capacity of a Boeing 747 filled with Blu-Ray discs is 595,520,000 Gigabits, resulting in a 37,034.826 Gb/s flight from New York to Los Angeles."
14:02:26 <ehird> Hi, ais523. I'm zapping PRAM and patching Open Firmware and planning to upgrade Debian 7 years in a short space of time.
14:05:44 <ehird> When the newest installation method that works is a floppy containing a Debian sarge netinstall, circa 2002, you know your platform's abandoned.
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14:09:13 <ais523> what platform is that?
14:10:08 <ais523> hmm... summary of Slashdot news: Yahoo are now using Bing as their search engine after a deal with Microsoft, and a new type of cloud they've discovered turns out to be created by space shuttle launches
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14:18:27 <ehird> ais523: the platform is a PowerPC Power Mac with an Old World ROM
14:18:33 <ehird> (so it can't boot from CDs)
14:18:40 <ehird> *Macintosh, technically.
14:19:55 <ehird> i've been at this for… approaching 24 hours now i think
14:20:11 <ehird> i don't even plan on using it
14:20:23 <ehird> my attitude to the action is basically doing it :P
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14:22:41 <ehird> ais523: the main thing i've learned is that classic mac os hates you and does not want you to: install linux; be happy.
14:23:15 <ais523> how can one OS have any opinion on whether you can install another single-boot?
14:23:28 <ais523> you mean that classic macs hate you, not Mac OS Classic
14:24:48 <ehird> no, I mean mac os classic
14:24:55 <ehird> when you're getting what you need to install
14:25:10 <ehird> for example, you mustn't let it mount the floppy disk image or floppy while they're writeable
14:25:17 <ehird> because it will indiscriminately dump the bootb its
14:25:29 <ehird> (without notification)
14:28:48 <ais523> why would you even run the OS at all?
14:29:32 <ehird> ais523: you pretty much have to with a classic mac
14:29:42 <ehird> yes, you technically could totally avoid doing it, but it'd be incredibly difficult
14:29:44 <ais523> so it can't just boot from a floppy, then?
14:29:51 <ais523> I actually have no idea
14:30:13 <ais523> so presumably, then, the issue is that you need a lot of information from the OS itself to make the disk image
14:31:19 <ehird> ais523: but to give you an idea of the sort of environment, it actually can boot from CDs. as long as said CD is a mac os 8.6 (iirc as to the exact version number; probably newer versions too) install disc.
14:31:22 <ais523> I like complication, or I wouldn't be here
14:31:50 <ais523> the issue is that it attempts to validate the boot media as being genuine?
14:32:00 * ais523 suspects they guessed wrong again
14:32:17 <ehird> i just hate this thing :P
14:32:48 <ehird> the quik-from-mac-os thing don't done no detect
14:32:55 <ehird> so i'll have to boot the debian floppy again
14:34:11 <nooga> "do not done no detect" sounds weird
14:35:13 <ehird> perhaps becuse it is
14:36:36 <ehird> it sounds weird because it is weird
14:45:22 <ais523> ehird: at least you aren't being eaten by sharks yet, better quit while you're ahead
14:45:42 <ehird> [14:42] ehird: When installing Quik:
14:45:42 <ehird> [14:42] ehird: "Unable to set the OpenFirmware boot-command variable.
14:45:42 <ehird> [14:42] ehird: You may have intermittent boot failures."
14:45:43 <ehird> [14:42] ehird: …very…specific?
14:45:46 <ehird> ais523: are you sure about those sharks?
14:45:50 <ehird> my leg feels vaguely painful.
15:14:13 <ehird> AnMaster: sorry, I said woody is 2.4
15:34:28 <fizzie> I think I had woody too on the Performa. I did get a 2.4 kernel mostly working though, I think, maybe.
15:34:42 <ehird> i think i've found a way to do it modernly
15:34:47 <ehird> without GOD DAMN FLOPPIES
15:37:14 <fizzie> But FLOPPIES have SOUL, you know. Unlike these cold and mechanistic and plasticy optical things.
15:39:28 <ehird> fizzie: You can make it even more horrible by using a virtual CD rom drive.
15:39:34 <ehird> (Well, that might not work with the booting crapolashitfuck.)
15:40:43 <ehird> I think I can install it GRAPHICALLY, going STRAIGHT TO TESTING.
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15:51:43 <ehird> <Disk Utility> Preparing for burn
15:54:59 <ehird> the kernel can handle being on ext4, right?
16:20:12 <Sgeo> ..ok, why does my flash drive keep unmounting itself?
16:35:35 <Sgeo> Hooray, it unmounted itself again!
16:35:38 * Sgeo shoots someone
16:47:37 <ais523> good job that was only a flesh wound...
16:48:18 <Sgeo> On the plus side, new Fine Structure LD
16:48:46 <ehird> damn you ais523! (good job that was only a spiritual wound?)
16:49:39 <ehird> hey, I haven't said that for _months_
16:49:42 <ehird> like, whole of 2009
16:49:46 <ais523> doesn't make it any better now
16:49:47 <ehird> i retract it blah blah
16:50:06 <Sgeo> Um, what just happened?
16:50:14 <ehird> Sgeo: ais523 really hates people damning him.
16:50:19 <ais523> Sgeo: it takes a bullet a while to get from your location to mine
16:50:42 <ehird> ais523: food for thought, though; if I said I found the word "esolang" deeply offensive and cruel, would you stop using it in my presence?
16:51:03 <ais523> possibly, although in that case you'd be better off leaving this channel, because people tend to use it a lot here
16:51:11 <Sgeo> Esolang you, ehird! >.>
16:51:47 <ehird> ais523: i'm aoulipophobic. i can't stand words with the letter "e" in them.
16:51:50 <ehird> (after this line.)
16:55:29 <Deewiant> I wonder how you deal with your name
16:55:47 <ehird> Foul ghoul! Why must you taunt my id?
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16:58:15 <Deewiant> Because thine id exists in a state of apparent strife with the supposed fear
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16:59:52 <ehird> Robotic summation! Gasps and wasps! Nightmar— all around— your sayings so; in calm allow me, or I shall inform you: zap!
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17:43:08 <ehird> hivposi: I am truly sorry for your lots
17:45:00 * ehird wonders what inspired hivposi to pick said name
17:45:51 <ehird> I have nothing to say :P
17:47:28 <ehird> hivposi: if you got cancer would you call yourself braintumo?
17:48:00 <hivposi> no but it would be appropriate regardless
17:48:51 <ehird> hivposi: are you perhaps looking for magick to cure your ailment? this channel is about programming.
17:49:26 <hivposi> perhaps once i get some nano technology you can program a cure
17:50:59 <ehird> This sure is awkward.
17:51:44 <ais523> hey, who took the konami code out of the topic?
17:51:47 <ais523> it was there for a reason...
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17:51:59 <pikhq> Female in chat? Hmm. Been a few years. :P
17:52:19 <ehird> ais523: that happened ages ago, man
17:52:26 <ehird> that student person
17:52:29 <ais523> ehird: yes, but the reason has come back again
17:52:31 <ehird> …liked mathematics
17:52:46 <ehird> talked about drugs above the average amount iirc
17:52:57 <ehird> my mental classification scheme would work better if I had a photographic memory :D
17:52:59 <ais523> the whole point of the do not remove the %s under any circumstances was so people knew what the channel was about
17:53:04 <ehird> it applies photographic transformations to fuzzy memories
17:53:06 <ais523> although, why the %s became the konami code is beyond me
17:53:21 <ehird> ais523: i'm not _entirely_ sure it would have helped in this case :P
17:53:47 -!- ehird has set topic: "must not be in the topic at all times" must not be in the topic at all times. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
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17:56:20 <oklopol> pikhq: there are more openly gay people here than openly girl people, so how did you know hivposi is a girl?
17:56:55 <ehird> Yeah I find it unlikely in this case.
17:57:13 <ehird> Due to at least our general demographics if nothing else.
17:57:14 <pikhq> oklopol: Oh, right.
17:57:22 <pikhq> More gay geeks than girl geeks.
17:57:40 <oklopol> i mean even without considering the nick, which i associated with posix, not hiv, btw :P
17:57:51 <pikhq> And most of the girl geeks are homosexual. Whoo.
17:57:59 <oklopol> maybe posix is my weak spot when it comes to puns.
17:58:06 <ehird> pikhq: I find that to be generally untrue.
17:58:19 <oklopol> sukoshi was totally hot for me
17:58:54 <ehird> Anyway, I'm going to be a gigantic asshole and assume that hivposi is an idiot for (a) managing to get HIV in high school and (b) for some strange reason adopting this as a moniker.
17:59:00 <oklopol> i miss the #esoteric that was about esolangs :D
17:59:01 <ehird> News update: My asshole has taken off.
17:59:04 <ehird> It is now orbiting the earth.
17:59:15 <ehird> Correction. Inflationary measures now suggest that the earth is orbiting the asshole.
17:59:34 <hivposi> not infected, bad sense of humour
18:00:03 <oklopol> ehird: i had tons of unprotected sex in high school
18:00:04 <ehird> yet again i am struck by my inability to detect jokes that show no signs of being so
18:00:42 <oklopol> nerds weren't all that popular in preschool
18:01:14 <pikhq> GregorR: T-Rex is Lonely is also on Qwantz.
18:01:30 <oklopol> all i'm saying is not only idiots get sex diseases
18:01:33 <ehird> Next up on Qwantz: Ryan North Fellates Gregor Richards
18:01:38 <oklopol> also those who don't like condoms
18:01:44 <ehird> Followed by Also Have I Mentioned Gregor Richards Is Great?
18:02:06 <ehird> oklopol: actually you're an idiot you just have a free life pass to be one
18:03:15 <oklopol> he could be GregorTheGreat now that rodger is gone
18:03:36 <ehird> GregorR: [[This is basically an experiment in "how silly does a concept have to be before Gregor WON'T buy a domain name for it?"]]
18:03:55 <ais523> ehird: that's the wrong way round, the sillier, the more likely the domain name happens
18:03:59 <ehird> Toiletry Products That Are Not For (A) Consumption, (B) Sex
18:04:07 <ehird> I eagerly await the domain.
18:04:11 <ehird> ais523: hey, complain to him, not me
18:04:31 <ehird> GregorR: okay wait I have a new one
18:04:59 <oklopol> see you... NOT :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:05:12 <ehird> Cloudsourced Folksonomy Determining the Exact Position of One Single Undetectable Dust Microbe on Russell's Teapot Using Methods Pioneered by the Invisible Pink Unicorn involving Time Cubic Principles
18:05:42 <ehird> cloudsourcedfolksonomydeterminingtheexactpositionofonesingleundetectabledustmicrobeonrussellsteapotusingmethodspioneeredbytheinvisiblepinkunicorninvolvingtimecubicprinciples.com
18:05:59 <ais523> does that even fit in a DNS?
18:06:15 <ehird> Meanwhile, http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,5&comics=583,869&strip
18:06:22 <Robdgreat> pretty sure that's more than 63 characters
18:08:00 <ehird> just subdomainise it
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18:15:19 <Robdgreat> then it'll look like an efnet hostmask
18:17:18 <ehird> man, efnet is so crap
18:27:27 <pikhq> CFDEPOSUDMRTUMPIPUTCP
18:29:19 <ehird> Compact flash defecation entering pillock's orifices — say, udders — demonstrating monotheism really turgidly umpires magical picking in Paris: understanding telephony; child pornography.
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20:50:07 <oerjan> <ehird> News update: My asshole has taken off. <-- did you attach a string to it so that we can use it as a space elevator?
20:50:23 <ehird> A sphincter elevator.
20:51:19 <oerjan> a small step for an asshole, a huge step for mankind
20:58:40 <FireFly> Meh, i thought of "string" as in text string first
20:59:57 <ais523> <Groklaw> And the judge has already denied SCO's request for expedited handling of the motion to shorten notice on its motion to sell the marketing of its Java patent.
21:00:10 <ais523> the SCO bankruptcy is getting more recursive by the day
21:00:51 <pikhq> It's requesting expediting a motion to expedite a motion.
21:01:09 <pikhq> Sorry, it is *moving* to request expediting a motion to expedite a motion. :P
21:03:25 <ais523> you'd think all that would take more time than just doing the motion in the first place
21:03:46 <ais523> and, of course, it all seems rather dubious that SCO patented Java in the first place, but you never know...
21:04:45 <ais523> oh, and SCO tried to sell the stuff from Novell that they still have but doesn't belong to them for $13,129.51, they said it was a typo
21:05:45 <pikhq> I think that is about SCO's worth these days.
21:06:11 <ais523> that's quite some typoo
21:06:21 * ais523 proves Muphry's law once again
21:06:50 <ehird> SCO's worth is negative, surely
21:06:58 <ehird> they operate, iirc, at a loss, and the anti-reputation is huge
21:07:14 <pikhq> I'm including physical assets.
21:07:17 <ais523> ehird: their accounts showed rather large cash reserves
21:07:25 <pikhq> Surely their office buildings count for something.
21:07:45 <ais523> of course, nobody's entirely sure whether to believe them
21:07:47 <ehird> pikhq: factor in the huge risk of all that disappearing Quite Soon(TM)
21:08:20 <pikhq> I'm going with "worth if you liquidated all assets". :P
21:08:37 <ehird> getting a mac rom that can run system 6.0.8 is proving difficult
21:08:46 <ehird> (as opposed to minimum 7)
21:09:51 <ehird> it's especially annoying because YOU CAN'T PURCHASE IT
21:10:02 <ehird> the only way to get it is to hope someone wants to sell/give away theirs
21:10:14 <ehird> god copyright law is stupid
21:10:42 <pikhq> ehird: Especially annoying when you consider Apple gives away the OS install disks for free.
21:10:49 <pikhq> (classic Mac OS, that is)
21:10:50 <ehird> yep, I'm trying to use them
21:10:59 <ais523> to please the fanboys?
21:11:10 <ehird> ais523: because they're not worth anything
21:11:13 <ais523> it makes sense, given that there isn't much of a use for them but making apple look good
21:11:14 <ehird> and they're interesting historical curios
21:11:18 <ehird> also, a bunch of people like them a lot
21:11:30 <ehird> for instance, there are people who, as recently as 2001, used system 6 for their day to day tasks
21:11:39 <ehird> ais523: And, well… http://system7today.com/
21:11:43 <ehird> That site actually runs on System 7.
21:11:45 <ais523> does system 6 come just after system V?
21:11:51 <pikhq> Whoa. Debian is switching to timed releases.
21:11:57 <ehird> Anyway, there's a— pikhq: seriously?
21:12:07 <ehird> "Debian: Because, like, let's just become exactly like Ubuntu."
21:12:27 <ais523> wasn't there a big move going on somewhere to make all major linux distros release on the same timetable?
21:12:32 <pikhq> ehird: Two-year cycle.
21:12:36 <ehird> ais523: what a horrible idea
21:12:39 <ehird> pikhq: correction —
21:12:43 <ais523> ehird: I didn't actually believe it would take off
21:12:44 <ehird> "Debian: Because, like, let's just become exactly like Ubuntu but a lot worse."
21:13:03 <ais523> maybe they want to be come Ubuntu feeder
21:13:14 <ais523> they are anyway, but unofficially, and are still useful as an independent OS
21:13:18 <ais523> maybe they're planning to merge, or something
21:13:23 <ais523> although that would be relatively awful
21:13:35 <pikhq> Exception: the next release will be out next year.
21:13:40 <ehird> I've held for a while that Debian should just merge with Ubuntu
21:13:51 <ehird> Give a proper, well-maintained 100% free version alongside,
21:13:56 <ehird> get the good attitude to upstreams
21:14:03 <ehird> get the greatness of Ubuntu
21:14:06 <ehird> and get Canonical's commercial support
21:14:12 <pikhq> Oh, wait. They've got time based *development freezes*. The release will happen after the freeze "when it's ready".
21:14:15 <ais523> and reply to bug reports on time?
21:14:28 <ehird> Ubuntu are good at integrating, marketing and funding.
21:14:31 <ehird> Debian are good at the rest.
21:14:37 <ehird> Separate teams are just counterproductive.
21:18:01 <ehird> I don't suppose anyone has an m68k Macintosh? :P
21:29:05 <ais523> <Groklaw journalist> Mr. Spector was arguing that he still had time. One of the IBM lawyers had a stop watch.
21:29:11 <ais523> (Spector is SCO's lawyer...)
21:32:48 <pikhq> I am impressed with IBM's balls.
21:34:06 <ais523> there was a great moment a few weeks ago, where SCO had a last-minute agreement they'd just signed
21:34:16 <ais523> so recently, in fact, that they only gave IBM and Novell one copy between them
21:34:31 <ais523> didn't have more, how terrible
21:34:38 <ais523> I thought that was a great move, if a rather unconventional one
21:35:18 <ais523> someone should make a channel for esoteric lawyering...
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21:38:16 <Sgeo> And Pavitra checks out the fuss here, I take it
21:38:28 <ais523> yes, a cross-channel issue
21:38:34 <ais523> there are a lot of people in common between them
21:39:03 <Pavitra> Well, a lot of ##nomic. Less, proportionally, from #esoteric.
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21:45:10 <ehird> y'all mentioned the word nomic for several lines, so i get one
21:45:52 <ais523> note to the confused: ehird refuses to join ##nomic
21:46:10 <ehird> Note to the unconfused: ais523 delights in pointing out the fact that I don't talk in ##nomic every time it comes up.
21:46:22 <ehird> I could do it some more if you like…?
21:46:31 <pikhq> Note to the notes: Those responsible for the notes have been sacked
21:46:46 <ehird> Note to the pikhqs: Yes, but they were replaced by cards!
21:47:21 <Pavitra> The recursion of that pun is mind-boggling.
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21:49:57 <ehird> in fact i'm still discovering aspects of it
21:50:05 <ehird> i'm not entirely convinced it isn't mutating behind my back
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22:02:30 <ais523> oh, we just did the calculations; apparently, a the weight of a £50 note in gold is worth about 75p at today's mass-market gold prices
22:02:41 <ais523> (where 'we' is an unspecified set of people including me)
22:02:49 <ais523> so a £20 note almost certainly is worth its weight in gold
22:03:38 <ais523> its volume in gold would almost certainly be worth a lot more
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23:16:32 <oerjan> now it is no longer succinct, since the two .'s could obviously have been compressed
23:17:28 <oerjan> i really don't think shouting helps
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00:19:36 <AnMaster> I just had an idea for a new game
00:20:10 <AnMaster> ais523, has that been done too?
00:20:10 <ehird> booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring
00:20:11 <ais523> 4x4x4 apparently works better
00:20:34 <ais523> no, I read it in a book
00:20:38 <ais523> it's probably on the internet anyway, though
00:25:06 <oerjan> same number of fields but distances would be shorter...
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00:36:40 <ehird> uhh 4^3 doesn't really = 1^6 :P
00:36:52 <ehird> i mean really as in an exaggeration…opposite thing
00:37:00 <ehird> "it isn't really that, it's this"
00:37:12 <oerjan> i am suspecting ais523 of a C joke, there
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00:48:50 <ehird> a man? eating hay?
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01:32:28 * ehird takes a look at Vala
01:36:51 <ehird> oklopol: y'know how you said guis suck to point at icons and shit so they should just look pretty instead? i think you'd like http://www.launchy.net/#screenshots
01:37:03 <ehird> (idea credit quicksilver, gnome do, blah blah blah 50 billion fucking clones)
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03:39:44 <augur> ehird: quicksilver <3
03:40:00 <augur> i just wish it wasnt so fucking glitchy
04:16:22 <oklopol> ais523: 4^3 = 1^6 <<< 2^4 would've been better, so you get both (\(a, b) -> (a^2, b-1)) and xor
04:17:00 <oklopol> i mean 1^6 is pretty arbitrary isn't it
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07:10:07 <beinghuman> http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/p4__288610_Business_Supplies_1_10051_SC3:CG71:DP4118:CL161747
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14:01:05 <ehird> "Traditionally, Mac OS has been a fairly secure operating system. Mac OS X, however, introduced a UNIX underpinning that is more vulnerable to security holes than Mac users are accustomed to."
14:01:09 <ehird> Crazy, crazy pepole.
14:01:48 <ehird> 19:39:44 <augur> ehird: quicksilver <3
14:01:48 <ehird> 19:40:00 <augur> i just wish it wasnt so fucking glitchy
14:22:57 <ais523> does anyone here know of any decent free tools for removing mains hum from music recordings?
14:24:16 <ais523> yet another problem with this laptop means that you have to record things at low volume or the recording doesn't work
14:24:22 <ais523> and I stupidly forgot to disconnect the power cable
14:25:56 <ehird> you can hear it hum when charging? wow
14:26:05 <ehird> ais523: just use a lowpass or something
14:26:07 <ais523> I recorded on a mains-powered system
14:26:11 <ehird> or that sort of ilk
14:26:14 <ais523> ehird: you mean highpass
14:26:31 <ais523> unfortunately, music quite possibly often goes below 50 Hz, after all it's not that low
14:26:38 <ais523> middle C is about 256 Hz
14:26:58 <ais523> ideally, you'd want a tool which worked out what the constant mains hum was, and subtracted it
14:27:02 <ehird> give it a try anyway
14:27:05 <ehird> audacity can do that shit in seconds
14:27:54 <ais523> actually, a notch filter might work, if there is one
14:28:14 <ais523> remove everything that's exactly 50 Hz, while leaving everything else (in theory; the practice is trickier, but audacity probably knows about the issues)
14:28:54 <ehird> ais523: you can probably do that using Audacity's programming language (at least that's what I recall it is) Nyquist
14:29:09 <ehird> otoh there's probably a way to say remove 50hz-50hz
14:29:53 <ais523> well, I installed audacity, and its man page told me what I should be using instead
14:29:55 <ais523> so I'm installing sox too
14:30:27 <ehird> ais523: how did it say that?
14:30:45 <ais523> ehird: the man page basically said "if you want to do simple batch audio editing, use sox"
14:30:55 <ehird> it's just one file, isn't it?
14:31:13 <ehird> if it was one file, audacity would almost certainly be simpler and quicker
14:31:13 <ais523> SoX looks like ImageMagick but for sound
14:31:33 <ehird> ais523: *GraphicsMagick?
14:31:49 <ais523> I thought it was called ImageMagick
14:31:59 <ehird> it is, GraphicsMagick is a fork
14:32:03 <ehird> but apparently is like, the focus
14:32:05 <ais523> and so does its man page
14:32:31 <ehird> ais523: sort of like if esr kept updating C-INTERCAL but with only rubbish changes
14:32:39 <ehird> i gather is the argument
14:32:43 <ais523> heh, he was doing that for a while
14:33:14 <ehird> ais523: so ais523/C-INTERCAL is based on an older esr/?
14:33:25 <ais523> no, I just reverted most of them
14:33:31 <ais523> not deliberately, just more or less by chance
14:33:36 <ais523> as they were to files I subsequently deleted
14:33:52 <ehird> I like the idea of forking from old versions
14:34:14 <ehird> like version 3 of some software was good, version 4 was okay but then they made really crap changes in version 5
14:34:18 <ehird> so everyone just forked version 3
14:34:30 <ehird> like, there, version 4 becomes a black hole
14:34:32 <ais523> heh, I wonder if anyone forked the old version of Amarok?
14:34:35 <ehird> you don't use it if you like the changes
14:34:39 <ehird> because there's version 5
14:34:48 <ehird> but if you hate the changes, you either use version 3 or the fork
14:34:56 <ehird> ais523: I don't get why people whined about the new amarok
14:35:04 <ehird> I haven't used it, but the only bit that looks stupid is the overlapped button thing
14:35:07 <ais523> I never used the old one, so I have no way to compare
14:35:24 <ehird> The old one was… eh… very KDE 3.
14:35:36 <ais523> it doesn't really do what I want it to do (I prefer things that just play sound rather than trying to manage files), but it's the only program I've found that plays sound on KDE
14:35:47 <ais523> for some reason, things like Totem were silent there last I checked
14:35:53 <ais523> maybe that's fixed itself (i.e. via updates) now
14:35:55 <ehird> ais523: I like using a music library, personally
14:36:01 <ehird> I don't think that's really a violation of the unix philosophy
14:36:05 <ehird> You can easily outsource the actual playing
14:36:05 <ais523> I have all my music stored in a filesystem already
14:36:14 <ais523> and don't feel the need to re-sort it
14:36:20 <ehird> did I dispute that?
14:36:25 <ehird> I was just pointing out that music libraries aren't inherently bad
14:36:29 <ais523> I don't think they are
14:40:59 <ais523> they're the sort of thing that I have no problem with other people using, but don't think are particularly suited to me
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15:05:45 <ais523> ugh, the mains distortion wasn't a sine wave
15:06:02 <ais523> so it isn't sufficient to filter out 50 Hz, you need to filter out every multiple of it too...
15:06:04 <ehird> ais523: it's the riemann zeta function!
15:06:12 <ehird> that's a lot of hertzes :p
15:06:25 <ais523> I'll just try the lowest 10 or so, to see what happens
15:09:15 <ehird> "The energy comes from Genie Magic, which as I understand is infinite."
15:11:11 <ais523> well, filtering the first 5 multiples of 50 Hz seems to have about halved the volume of the mains hum
15:11:21 <ehird> clearly you must do it again!
15:11:37 <ais523> nah, the mains hum now has a different timbre
15:12:01 <ais523> which is to be expected if you cut out some multiples but not otheres
15:12:06 <ehird> ais523: how long are all these files?
15:12:14 <ais523> maybe about 10 minutes
15:12:22 <ehird> you know it might be quicker to re-record them, right? :P
15:12:25 <ais523> but I may end up recording more the same way in the future
15:12:33 <ais523> and no, the issue is that the source I recorded from isn't easily reproducible
15:12:37 <ehird> surely it isn't hard to unplug the laptop
15:12:41 <ais523> which is the reason I recorded them in the first place
15:12:51 <ehird> the only example springing to mind is radio
15:13:27 <ais523> ah, filtering out multiples of 50 Hz up to 500 Hz works great
15:13:36 <ais523> the mains hum is still there, but your brain filters it out after a couple of seconds
15:13:41 <ais523> and it couldn't before that
15:13:49 <ehird> if it WAS radio, i'd just filter out everything outside of radio's frequencies
15:14:01 <ais523> 50 is inside radio frequencies
15:14:29 <ais523> it's between 3 and 4 octaves below middle C; rather low, but not so massively low that nobody ever uses it
15:15:16 <ais523> ooh, of course, it might not be my brain filtering it out, but rather the filtering getting better the more data it has
15:15:35 <ehird> easy way to find out
15:15:45 <ehird> ais523: find two near-identical parts of the song
15:15:48 <ehird> one from the start and one from the end
15:15:52 <ehird> run a script that randomises them
15:15:56 <ehird> and you have to guess which it is
15:16:03 <ehird> repeat with multiple samples for SCIENCE
15:16:08 <ais523> oh, my solution would be to produce a spectogram, and watch to see if the hum line actually faded on the picture
15:16:15 <ehird> that's boring man.
15:16:46 <ehird> ais523: it might be hiding in other frequencies, too!
15:17:02 <ais523> ehird: if it isn't a multiple of 50, then it isn't UK mains hum
15:17:02 <ehird> also, even if it's there, if you can't hear it it doesn't really matter
15:17:18 <ais523> and agreed, if I can't hear it it doesn't matter
15:17:57 <ehird> although by that logic i shouldn't use lossless compression
15:17:59 <ehird> but i like it, so bah
15:18:36 <ais523> well, I'm keeping the originals too
15:18:48 <ais523> the advantage of lossless compression is that if you want to do further processing, it's better than the lossy version
15:19:23 <ehird> yes, but i store unprocessed lossless music
15:19:26 <ais523> e.g. it's common for instruments to be recorded in stereo but vocals in mono, so by subtracting one channel from the other you can often remove the lyrics from a song
15:19:35 <ehird> just because i have the disk space, and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy
15:19:46 <ais523> ehird: well, storing both lossless /and/ lossy would be a waste
15:22:00 <ehird> wow, the little tick sound of my trackball is produced by the mouse's clicky thingy (like an ipod)
15:22:02 <ehird> not the wheel itself
15:22:10 <ehird> same as the side grip buttons
15:22:22 <ehird> i discovered this because it's just run out of battery :P
15:22:30 <ais523> ok, so the mouse makes click noises when you turn the trackball, to make it feel more realistic?
15:22:55 <ehird> just for feedback, I think
15:23:07 <ehird> for instance, gripping the side buttons (they're not actual buttons) while it's off doesn't feel right
15:23:12 <ehird> they never click, it doesn't feel like you're doing it right
15:23:19 <ehird> while it's on, it makes a little click noise and feels fine
15:23:30 <ehird> similarly, it felt like the ball was broken
15:23:33 <ehird> like, not touching the contact point
15:23:46 <ais523> this reminds me of the first fanless computers
15:23:57 <ais523> in the end they had to attach a noisy fan to them which did nothing, because everyone assumed they were broken
15:24:05 <ehird> the original macintosh was fanless
15:24:12 <ehird> as well as every macintosh until the somethingorother (SE?)
15:24:16 <ais523> well, maybe first fanless PCs
15:24:23 <ehird> people added fans to the macintosh tho
15:24:27 <ehird> cause it overheated a lot
15:24:28 <ais523> a fan just helps so much in getting processor density down
15:24:30 <ehird> breaking components
15:24:48 <ais523> it's density and speed that cause components to heat up
15:24:49 <ehird> ais523: yeah, it's amazing how much cooler everything gets with just one fan
15:24:50 <ais523> well, density up, size down
15:25:11 <ehird> ais523: the more dense the cooler, no?
15:25:16 <ehird> when 45nm chips were the new thing
15:25:22 <ehird> everyone was going "it needs less voltage and runs cooler"
15:25:39 <ais523> that's because being smaller lets you make better designs
15:25:43 <ais523> also, can use less power
15:25:53 <ais523> as in, you can run it on a lower current
15:26:06 <ais523> computers use microamps anyway, sometimes even nanoamps, for most of the internal circuitry
15:26:09 <ehird> clearly what we need is reversible computers, which can do any operation without heating
15:26:26 <ehird> of course, that uses a ton of memory, and you pay off big time with setting registers
15:26:28 <ais523> did you know that all quantum computers are reversible
15:26:37 <ehird> ais523: impossible
15:26:41 <ais523> because there's no known way to power them otherwise
15:26:43 <ehird> given infinite memory
15:26:53 <ais523> ehird: yes, you can be both TC and reversible given infinite memory
15:27:10 <ehird> ais523: so you have to restart a quantum computer after doing a heavy decryption task? :D
15:27:23 <ais523> ehird: you have to restart it after reading any of its output
15:27:28 <ehird> i presume the resetting of all the qubits gives off a shitload of heat
15:27:33 <ais523> because that causes the whole thing to decohere to a known state
15:27:47 <ehird> i feel sorry for all the guys in the backwater universes
15:27:49 <ais523> then, once you've read its output, you blank it by xoring the output to its current state
15:27:52 <ehird> their quantum computers never work
15:28:34 <ais523> rotating values is one of the fundamental operations in quantum computers, it's sort of like xor but with complex numbers
15:28:51 <ais523> there's a binary xor-like operation too, it's actually the only binary operation they use
15:29:20 <ehird> "I am diagnosed with Tourette's Syndrome. AMA" ← pfft, as if. you didn't even say "fuckshit" once!
15:29:30 <ehird> ais523: but i assume that the resetting is very hot?
15:29:42 <ais523> well, no, the resetting is reversible
15:29:48 <ais523> it's probably the collapsing that generates heat
15:30:09 <ais523> you reset a quantum computer by working out a reversible operation that gets it from its current state to its initial state
15:30:25 <ais523> ooh, I think I know how this works
15:30:26 <ehird> it's a shame that room-temperature quantum computers look unlikely
15:30:36 <ais523> most operations happen in all the parallel universes, but the collapsing only happens in one
15:30:49 <ais523> thus you don't generate nearly as much heat
15:31:08 <ais523> and tbh, even near-absolute-zero quantum computers would be great, if they had decent storage space
15:31:25 <ais523> you'd use them as a coprocessor, quantum computers are awful at doing things like conditionals
15:31:42 <ais523> you have to do them the same way Knuth did conditionals in INTERCAL, by faking them using arithmetic
15:32:41 <ais523> program flow has to be deterministic in a quantum computer, but that doesn't prevent it being TC
15:33:00 <ehird> ais523: there's a 128-qubit computer
15:33:12 <ais523> last I heard, the record was 7
15:33:22 <ehird> produced by D-Wave Systems: http://www.dwavesys.com/
15:33:24 <ais523> really, a few kiloqubits will be enough to do certain practical calculations, I think
15:33:29 <ehird> bloggity blog with pictures and stuff: http://dwave.wordpress.com/
15:33:57 <ehird> "Putting all of these qubits into superposition states — the initial Hamiltonian in the adiabatic algorithm — gives 2^128 ~ 3 x 10^38 simultaneously held states. Not quite the number of atoms in the earth, but close."
15:34:14 <ais523> yes, impressive, although I'd be more interested if they managed actual calculations
15:34:15 <ehird> i think you're overestimating how much would be needed
15:34:24 <ehird> they sell quantum computers
15:34:37 <ehird> admittedly, 7 digit money
15:34:41 <ehird> but money nonetheless
15:34:50 <ehird> the 128-qubit chips are still being tested though
15:34:56 <ais523> ehird: things like factorising prime numbers used in cryptography need a number of qubits similar to the number of bits needed to do the calculations when you already know the answer
15:34:57 <ehird> iirc there's a research department that has one of their computers, probably some others too
15:35:20 <ais523> so if you want to break, say, a 4096-bit privkey, you're going to need about 4 kiloqubits
15:35:48 <ehird> quantum computing is so disappointing, you look at it and you're all, wow, this is amazing, this will change everything
15:35:50 <ehird> then all the caveats :D
15:36:04 <ehird> "cannot massively reduce complexity. requires an unreasonable number of qubits."
15:36:09 <ais523> it's a weird style of programming
15:36:11 <ehird> "also, you've got a fridge, right?"
15:36:15 <ehird> "like. a really good fridge."
15:36:20 <ehird> "we're talking absolute zero here."
15:36:24 <ais523> you can do ginormous numbers of calculations in parallel, but only get the result of one of them
15:36:43 <ais523> but there are ways to manipulate the probabilities so that the one you get is decently likely to be the one you actually want
15:37:01 <ais523> IIRC, all nontrivial quantum computations can return /any/ answer, but good algorithms will return the one you actually want with a high probability
15:37:13 <ais523> and you check on a classical computer, then repeat if the quantum computer got it wrong
15:37:33 <ehird> ais523: I'd just run the quantum computer N times until we get the same result N times
15:37:44 <ehird> you never know that a classical computer doesn't suffer random corruption, too
15:37:50 <ehird> and this way is… faster
15:38:37 <ehird> ais523: incidentally, on http://dwave.wordpress.com/page/2/, it looks like a regular silicon chip (sans die package thing)
15:38:38 <ais523> it's not random corruption, it's just ending up in the wrong universe
15:38:46 <ehird> how does it differ from that?
15:38:56 <ehird> because i know solid-state quantum computing is new-fangled and this ain't it
15:38:56 <ais523> ehird: it almost certainly /is/ solid state, just with different chemicals used
15:39:06 <ehird> ais523: so that article about the first solid state quantum computer was bullshit?
15:39:08 <ais523> well, as in the packaging is solid state
15:39:13 <ais523> even if the part that does stuff isn't
15:39:32 <ais523> it's like, you put the computer inside a silicon chip because that's an easy environment to make the connections to it
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15:41:45 <ehird> we should hijack a universe without any life and use it for computation.
15:41:53 <ehird> us as in #esoteric
15:42:15 <ais523> I read a short story about that
15:42:30 <ais523> where an advanced society had invented a sort of teleporter to and from alternative universes
15:42:42 <ais523> and were giving people their own Earths, in which life had never developed, to live on
15:43:04 <ais523> eventually they ran into people from alternative universes in which life /had/ developed, which were doing the same thing
15:43:42 <ehird> who says other universes have to obey our physics? :P
15:44:11 <ais523> I think they picked ones that did
15:44:17 <ais523> after all, they were ones in which Earth existed
15:44:23 <ais523> just never developed life for whatever reason
15:45:17 <ehird> of course, observing a universe with different physics is nonsensical
15:45:28 <ehird> let alone going there
15:51:27 <ehird> [[IAmA scientist, minister, and atheist, I've started a Christian sect for reality-based people - AMA]] // …thus bringing the definition of the word "Christian" to all-new realms of semantic meaninglessness?
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15:52:09 <pikhq> ehird: A Christian sect for atheists? Wow.
15:52:18 <ehird> pikhq: seems to be a Thomas Jefferson-style thing
15:52:25 <ehird> "Jesus was a nice guy, let's be like him and help each other, 'kay?"
15:52:30 <ehird> but that's not really christianity.
15:52:38 <pikhq> I could've sworn the monotheism was one of the few things that Christians agreed with each other on. :P
15:52:40 <ais523> I suppose you can be atheist and yet agree with many of the teachings of christianity
15:52:47 <ehird> also, it kind of falls flat if you're trying to drop the belief/faith
15:52:50 <pikhq> ais523: But that's not Christianity.
15:52:56 <ehird> because there's basically no evidence that jesus historically existed
15:53:05 <ehird> so that's pretty much the dumbest idea i've heard all day.
15:53:21 <ais523> ehird: Jesus turns up in many religions
15:53:27 <ais523> although they all have slightly different versions of events
15:53:33 <ehird> is there a point to that sentence?
15:53:51 <ais523> I think Christianity specifically believes he died and was resurrected, whereas several others don't
15:54:13 <ehird> he most likely didn't even exist, though
15:54:33 <pikhq> ais523: That's pretty much the defining aspect of Christianity.
15:54:34 <ais523> personally I'd be surprised if Jesus was an entirely invented character
15:54:46 <ehird> ais523: I think it's possible he was a minor cult leader or something
15:55:07 <pikhq> Though other Abrahamic religions describe him as a great prophet.
15:55:09 <ehird> but if he did exist, from the historical silence on him, he almost certainly wasn't anything like the character in the bible
15:55:26 <ehird> (perhaps just reused to peddle a new religion?)
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23:05:59 <ehird> okay, now, clog and everyone else
23:06:05 <ehird> i am going to paste every line since clog exited
23:06:09 <ehird> you're most welcome
23:07:03 * oerjan swats ehird down into the asphalt, warner bros style -----###
23:07:06 <ehird> 16:04] pikhq: "Brilliant". EMI is no longer selling CDs to smaller record stores.
23:07:07 <ehird> [16:06] Pthing left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:07:07 <ehird> [16:09] ais523: pikhq: don't you mean "Brillant"?
23:07:07 <ehird> [16:09] pikhq: Yes.
23:07:08 <ehird> [16:11] ehird: if emi wants to kill themselves, can't we please offer assisted suicide?
23:07:08 <ehird> [16:12] ehird: well I guess that's "shutting down" :P
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23:07:13 <ehird> [16:46] ehird: Nobody talk, clog is dead!
23:07:15 <ehird> [16:47] MigoMipo joined the chat room.
23:07:17 <ehird> [16:50] FireFly: Urgh
23:07:19 <ehird> [16:50] FireFly: Note to self: Regex intensive perl source code isn't meant to be written on a cellphone
23:07:21 <ehird> [16:53] pikhq: Perl is not meant to be written.
23:07:23 <ehird> [17:01] ais523: bye clog
23:07:25 <ehird> [17:03] ehird: FireFly: CODE isn't meant to be written on a cellphone
23:07:27 <ehird> [17:03] ehird: buy a laptop, you bum!
23:07:29 <ehird> [17:04] FireFly: Meh
23:07:31 <ehird> [17:04] FireFly: Not when you can SMS it for free to friends
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23:07:43 <ehird> [18:02] pikhq: GregorR: "All-user-submissions Augst".
23:07:45 <ehird> [18:02] pikhq: August, even.
23:07:49 <ehird> [18:03] ehird: pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eclectic_shorthand_by_cross.png ← is your language thingy more concise than any of these?
23:07:52 <ehird> [18:03] ehird: Cross-(Eclectic) appears to be shorter but has more intricate forms than the others.
23:07:54 <ehird> [18:04] pikhq: ehird: Quite likely not. It's not an exceptionally well-designed system.
23:07:56 <ehird> [18:04] ehird: I don't believe I could learn to read any of those in the png.
23:07:58 <ehird> [18:04] ehird: My brain doesn't distinguish most of the forms.
23:08:00 <ehird> [18:09] Asztal joined the chat room.
23:08:02 <ehird> [18:33] ehird: Does anyone know if Firefox has D-Bus stuff to manipulate its pages? Epiphany?
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23:08:59 <ehird> well ain't that just a bitch; allow me to continue
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23:09:41 <ehird> [19:19] fizzie: The fourth attempt lost: http://pastebin.com/m3d389eb
23:09:41 <ehird> [19:21] ehird: "Actually, Gnome is more customizable than KDE." // now this, THIS one I haven't heard before
23:09:42 <ehird> [19:21] ehird: fizzie: haha
23:09:44 <ehird> [19:21] ehird: what is testlm-disk?
23:09:46 <ehird> [19:22] fizzie: It's just a perl script I whipped together to mimic the way fungot generates babble, except a bit better.
23:09:46 <fungot> ehird: it does'nt give the object a name cab the taxi-list length added to 1, 4 3 2 ( total of indices) bytes of memory
23:09:49 <ehird> [19:22] fungot: fizzie: which is semantically right, but acts wrong
23:09:49 <fungot> ehird: remote control as an adverb+verb? nice. how do i do a simple method for defining those few special widgets that your app needs ( most interesting apps do need some kind of letrec as an abstract fnord my fnord
23:09:51 <ehird> [19:22] fizzie: "-disk" is the "do not read the whole model to memory" variant; even though the model.bin.irc file is only 200 megabytes, Perl managed to use something like three gigabytes of memory to load it before I told it to stop.
23:09:55 <ehird> [19:25] FireFly: fungot did have a point
23:09:55 <fungot> ehird: one time my " a bit dirty."
23:09:57 <ehird> [19:25] fungot: FireFly: fnord augur i just type-raped a 13 year old nerd, yes.
23:09:57 <fungot> ehird: and even more fun :) is there already a scheme compiler.)
23:09:59 <ehird> [19:25] FireFly: "the way fungot generates babble"
23:10:01 <ehird> [19:25] fungot: FireFly: should it be n-ary? why would you do with a work... it could spend n ticks to mark a pheromone which lasts 5000 ticks though :) i'm just curious
23:09:40 <ehird> [19:25] FireFly: "which is semantically right"
23:09:42 <ehird> [19:26] ehird: 19:25] FireFly: fungot did have a point
23:09:44 <ehird> [19:26] ehird: [19:25] fungot: FireFly: fnord augur i just type-raped a 13 year old nerd, yes.
23:09:46 <ehird> [19:26] fungot: ehird: what in specific did you mean by that? " curried procedure?" :)
23:09:48 <ehird> [19:26] fungot: ehird: i mean, without side-effects one can just implement that without explicit continuations? dynamic-wind doesn't make an incredible amount of sense) here.
23:09:51 <ehird> [19:26] ehird: i think that's verbatim
23:09:55 <ehird> [19:26] ehird: s/^1/[1/
23:09:56 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood).
23:11:03 <pikhq> BeholdMyGlory: Pasting logs for clog's sake.
23:11:07 -!- ehird has joined.
23:11:18 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: replaying logs for when clog wasn't here, duh
23:11:28 <ehird> there are arguably better ways to do this but i've started now
23:11:39 <ehird> first, s/^18:/[18:/
23:12:35 <ehird> [19:27] fizzie: Yes, it's prone to that.
23:12:35 <ehird> [19:29] augur joined the chat room.
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23:12:36 <ehird> [20:10] ehird: fizzie: btw, your f_n : N → N thing where n > m → f_n(x) > f_m(x) forall n can be done for n : Bool trivially by f_false(n) = odds(n) and f_true(n) = evens(n)
23:12:37 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: s/(odds|evens)\(([^)]+)\)/$1_$2/g
23:12:39 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: but
23:12:41 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: that violates your extra rule,
23:12:43 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: err i forget
23:12:45 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: but i know it violates one of your extra rules
23:12:47 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: also i may be wrong, not thinking today
23:12:49 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: but i definitely got it right before
23:12:51 <ehird> [20:11] ehird: i may just have transcribed wrongly.
23:12:53 <ehird> [20:13] fizzie: I don't even remember what that is.
23:12:55 <ehird> [20:13] ehird: lemme find your original staterment
23:12:57 <ehird> [20:13] ehird: agh clog is down
23:12:59 <ehird> [20:13] fizzie: If it was the version numbering thing, then I remember.
23:13:01 <ehird> [20:14] ehird: oh, perhaps
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23:13:22 <pikhq> Crappy flood-protection is crappy.
23:13:49 <ehird> [20:14] ehird: i didn't look at context
23:13:49 <ehird> [20:14] ehird: fizzie: oh maybe it was mapping two to one
23:13:50 <ehird> [20:14] ehird: f : N → N → N → N uniquely, maybe
23:13:50 <ehird> [20:14] ehird: where the first has the original constraint
23:13:50 <ehird> [20:14] ehird: naw
23:13:51 <ehird> [20:14] ehird: fizzie: i'll grep my logsies
23:13:52 <ehird> [20:16] fizzie: My "original statement" in that case left out quite a lot of relevant things. But it was about a function f: Z^3 → Z such that n>m implies f(n)>f(m), where '>' for the 3-tuples is their lexicographical ordering.
23:13:56 <ehird> [20:16] ehird: fizzie: well you -can- divide the (positive, at least) integers in two
23:13:58 <ehird> [20:16] ehird: {1, 3, 5, 7, …} and {0, 2, 4, 6, …}, obviously
23:14:00 <ehird> [20:17] ehird: fizzie: so that's f : Bool → Z^2 → Z
23:14:02 <ehird> [20:17] ehird: fizzie: so basically do what integers are for 2, for 3, and then apply that
23:14:04 <ehird> [20:17] ehird: fizzie: but your other condition was something like
23:14:06 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: all of the 0s were above all of the 1s
23:14:08 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: or something
23:14:10 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: which is obviously impossible
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23:14:59 <ehird> p20:18] fizzie: Yes, I guess it was from three nonnegative integers to any arbitrary integer. And of course there is a injective function, but the ordering property was the trivially impossible one.
23:14:59 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: right it's just you seem to consider it… not that trivially impossible
23:14:59 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: which confused me
23:14:59 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: fizzie: also *an injective.
23:15:00 <ehird> [20:19] fizzie: Yes, I again retroactively edited the 'injective' I was going to forget.
23:15:02 <ehird> [20:19] ehird: fizzie: wait… what?
23:15:04 <ehird> [20:19] ehird: did you word that right?
23:15:06 <ehird> [20:19] fizzie: Edited in the word injective, is what I was trying to say.
23:15:08 <ehird> [20:20] fizzie: Inserted, maybe.
23:15:10 <ehird> [20:20] fizzie: What-the-everness.
23:15:12 <ehird> [20:21] Deewiant: The ever-what-ness.
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23:16:04 <ehird> [21:28] fizzie: A mind is a potato field...
23:16:04 <ehird> [21:28] ehird: whoa you said that JUST as i tabbed to this window
23:16:05 <ehird> [21:29] fizzie: That was what the bot thinks is pretty much the most likely continuation of "a mind is": http://pastebin.com/m16acacd7
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23:16:13 <ehird> [21:47] oerjan: logs are down?
23:16:15 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood).
23:16:29 -!- ehird has joined.
23:16:41 <ehird> [21:47] oerjan: logs are down?
23:16:41 <ehird> [21:48] • oerjan tries out downforeveryoneorjustme.com
23:16:41 <ehird> [21:54] oerjan: and DMM repeats himself. almost.
23:16:42 <ehird> [21:58] pikhq: Out of curiosity, when was the last time we discussed esolangs here?
23:16:44 <ehird> [21:59] oerjan: Oh, I recall way back in Yonder Days...
23:16:46 <ehird> [22:00] Topic changed to "You can discuss anything except weird programming languages, which is strictly forbidden. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D." by oerjan.
23:16:49 <ehird> [22:01] oerjan: that probably also includes haskell and J.
23:16:49 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood).
23:17:01 -!- ehird has joined.
23:17:24 <ehird> methinks it is getting more aggressive as I go
23:17:31 <ehird> [22:02] oerjan: php and java are perfectly appropriate, of course.
23:17:32 <ehird> [22:03] oerjan: ah, clog isn't even here.
23:17:32 <ehird> [22:04] oerjan: all our brilliant words will be lost for eternity.
23:17:32 <ehird> [22:04] oerjan: mind you they probably would anyway, eventually.
23:17:32 <ehird> [22:05] oerjan: we seem to have entered the realm of deep silence, aka no AnMaster + ehird
23:17:33 <ehird> [22:06] oerjan: only a lone blathering monologue keeps the forces of chaos at bay
23:17:34 <ehird> [22:18] oerjan: hm EgoBot but no HackEgo
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23:17:36 <ehird> [22:19] pikhq: Blather.
23:17:38 <ehird> [22:19] oerjan: Better blather with butter batter
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23:18:10 <BeholdMyGlory> Who's in charge of clog? Couldn't someone just do "tail -n NumberOfLines myLog.log >> clog.log" or something like that?
23:18:17 <ehird> [22:21] fizzie: blather on for way too long. click here to install thunderbird option, no doubt, take down those who are interested in.
23:18:17 <ehird> [22:22] • oerjan assumes whatever that was, it involved google translate somehow.
23:18:18 <ehird> [22:23] fizzie: oerjan: Oh, right, you missed the context. It involved the tool also seen in http://pastebin.com/m16acacd7 which is fungot's babblegen with the option to specify the initial context.
23:18:18 <ehird> [22:23] fungot: fizzie: soegaard never tiring of advocacy for now, only define-macro...
23:18:18 <ehird> [22:23] oerjan: the context will never be found
23:18:20 <ehird> [22:24] fizzie: sleep now bye. don't accidentally break your "delete". UNK arguments just changed, so all changes were mutable :p
23:18:23 <ehird> [22:24] oerjan: "a mind is a terrible thing to begin with" :D
23:18:25 <ehird> [22:26] oerjan: eris seems a very appropriate hostname
23:18:27 <ehird> [22:27] oerjan: now the wiki went down :(
23:18:29 <ehird> [22:32] Sgeo left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:18:31 <ehird> [22:47] ehird: [[False. Obama published it, not the state of Hawaii. Its not a birth
23:18:33 <ehird> [22:47] ehird: certificate but a Certificate of Live Birth (confusing name, but
23:18:35 <ehird> [22:47] ehird: different document), issued (at the time) by Hawaii to infants as old
23:18:37 <ehird> [22:47] ehird: as a year. No hospital or attending physician, and possibly even a
23:18:39 <ehird> [22:47] ehird: forgery. But who cares about the truth? He's a great guy....hope and
23:18:41 <ehird> [22:47] ehird: change and all that other nice stuff.]]
23:18:43 <ehird> [22:47] ehird: does anyone have any theories as to how the author of ↑ could figure out how to subscribe to a mailing list?
23:18:46 <ehird> [22:58] • oerjan assumes that ? is a unicode character. he cannot check as the logs are down.
23:19:04 <ehird> [23:18] BeholdMyGlory: Who's in charge of clog? Couldn't someone just do "tail -n NumberOfLines myLog.log >> clog.log" or something like that?
23:19:13 <ehird> and he doesn't touch clog
23:19:18 <ehird> nor, probably, care
23:19:24 <ehird> anyway, it's done now
23:19:32 <FireFly> Maintaining it without touching it is interesting
23:19:45 <ehird> FireFly: he maintains the box it's on.
23:19:54 <ehird> every time it's gone down, tunes.org has also, iirc
23:19:56 <ehird> except for maybe one time
23:20:44 <oerjan> <ehird> methinks it is getting more aggressive as I go <-- i was going to say that
23:20:52 <ehird> yeah but then the last bit
23:20:57 <ehird> smooth like butter
23:22:07 <oerjan> grmbl the tunes.org web server is still down
23:22:40 <ehird> that's how i've known where to resume :P
23:24:29 <oerjan> there must be _something_ you said in that interval which the universe doesn't want me to know :P
23:29:29 <oerjan> just me taunting the universe a bit, or something
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23:31:54 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 2 (50/440)
23:32:20 <oerjan> just 3 octaves and a bit below tuning fork
23:32:48 <oerjan> <ais523> unfortunately, music quite possibly often goes below 50 Hz, after all it's not that low
23:34:45 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 2 (20000/440)
23:37:12 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440
23:38:11 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 2 (435/440) * 12
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00:54:12 <ehird> FDA's revised 2009 food pyramid: http://imgur.com/b1b55.jpg
00:55:10 <oerjan> that would be the RFDA, i assume
00:55:51 <oerjan> reddit food and drugs administration
00:56:15 <ehird> actually, in response to conservative think-tanks claiming the new chart was too revolutionary and untested, it has been modified: http://imgur.com/QUU57.jpg
00:56:24 * oerjan hasn't got around to reddit today yet
00:56:38 <ehird> oerjan: you work really modally, don't you?
00:57:40 <ehird> oerjan: you browse your interwebs one site after another in huge binges :D
00:57:45 <oerjan> i'm still stuck in the iwc forum, which i read only thursdays and sunday
00:57:55 <ehird> you have a webternet schedule.
00:58:35 <oerjan> that's actually the exception though. most others i visit once a day, when they update, or when rss tells me
01:00:21 <oerjan> at least once a day, that is. if i run out of the usual sites i often revisit
01:00:33 <oerjan> and i treat it all far too much like a schedule queue.
01:01:19 <pikhq> I have a webternet schedule. Its contents can be found in /dev/urandom.
01:01:47 <ehird> oerjan: you use an rss client?!
01:02:05 <oerjan> yes. it was introduced in IE 7
01:02:08 <ehird> hmm maybe IE does rss bookmark stuff nowadays.
01:02:24 <ehird> he's an old norwegian curmudgeon
01:02:26 <pikhq> oerjan: IE is why we can't have nice things.
01:02:27 <ehird> also, will never switch
01:02:31 <ehird> pikhq: he also uses Hugs. WinHugs.
01:02:38 <oerjan> that also introduced tabs ;D
01:02:46 <pikhq> ehird: Is that still maintained¿
01:02:48 <ehird> pikhq: GHC doesn't have a Windows interface, don't you know. :)
01:02:54 <oerjan> and i read my email in pine, via putty
01:02:59 <ehird> Even its creator tells people to use GHC.
01:03:05 <ehird> WinHugs is also unmaintained.
01:03:38 <ehird> http://cvs.haskell.org/Hugs/pages/latest.htm ;; latest hugs releases: Nov 2003, Mar 2005, May 2006, September 2006
01:03:47 <ehird> Nov 2003 is the most recent major release.
01:04:02 <pikhq> oerjan: I am sticking your hard drive in a degaussing coil and destroying your software installation disks and mandating a filter that repeats this process if a Windows executable is discovered on your Internet link.
01:07:27 <oerjan> that sounds very aggressive of you. are you sure you have taken your vitamins?
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01:14:45 <ehird> let's give oerjan a macintosh with system 7!
01:14:51 <ehird> (Yeah yeah I'm old-mac geeking shut up.)
01:14:58 <ehird> Anyway, back to the joke.
01:15:05 <ehird> It'll be a huge upgrade!
01:15:29 <ehird> pikhq: you do know that A/UX basically ran macintosh binaries via an API emulation layer sort of thing right?
01:15:42 <ehird> still restricted to a fixed memory size etc
01:15:53 <pikhq> But it was also UNIX.
01:16:04 <ehird> pikhq: Not really.
01:16:08 <ehird> Only the bottom layer was Unix.
01:16:16 <ehird> Not one thing on top
01:17:04 <ehird> It was basically the Macintosh operating system with hardware interaction replaced with Unix calls.
01:18:03 <pikhq> The A/UX Finder was a native UNIX program.
01:18:39 <ehird> pikhq: Remember that in the days we're talking about, the Finder WAS the operating system, more or less.
01:19:44 <pikhq> Also, it totally did X.
01:20:01 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test { f (Test f) } deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 . fix (Test . Just)
01:20:59 <ehird> pikhq: It did X, yes… you could either boot into X, in which case it was 0% Macintosh, or you could use an application that did X.
01:21:05 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:21:08 <ehird> That application simply ran X on top of the Macintosh OS.
01:21:23 <ehird> It was not integrated in any sense; you could port it to a non-A/UX Macintosh System Software!
01:21:40 <ehird> pikhq: And that X server had a fixed RAM of, IIRC, 8 megabytes.
01:21:49 <ehird> Hope you don't run any graphically intensive programs. …like Mozilla…
01:22:02 <oerjan> bah ghc cannot deduce it has all the prerequisites for the instance :(
01:22:32 <ehird> oerjan: "Test { f (Test f) }"?
01:22:34 <ehird> The syntax be unvalid.
01:22:54 <ehird> oerjan: data Test f = Test (Test f) might be inferable
01:23:10 <oerjan> but that's not what i want
01:23:22 <ehird> that's what she said
01:23:39 <ehird> *now* you remember!
01:23:48 <oerjan> i see it cannot realize f gives a Show
01:24:05 <ehird> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = (Show f) => Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:24:09 <oerjan> it should have been able to add that prerequisite, i think
01:24:23 <ehird> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = (Show (f a)) => Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:24:34 <ehird> 01:24] EgoBot: /tmp/input.19244.hs:2:0:
01:24:34 <ehird> [01:24] EgoBot: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
01:24:42 <oerjan> also => in data do nothing for instances
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01:29:37 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:30:12 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:30:34 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:30:36 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.5190.hs:1:30: cannot parse LANGUAGE pragma
01:30:54 <oerjan> what, only _one_ allowed?
01:31:34 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:32:09 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . Just)
01:32:12 <EgoBot> Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just
01:33:50 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[]))
01:33:52 <EgoBot> [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
01:36:30 <pikhq> oerjan: That's evil. Truly evil.
01:37:34 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); deriving instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f); main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[]))
01:38:18 <oerjan> GregorR-L: for some incomprehensible reason that gave me a DCC listing of the root directory
01:39:06 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances, StandaloneDeriving #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); deriving instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f); main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[]))
01:39:09 <EgoBot> Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test
01:39:20 <ehird> oerjan: so what's the point of this again? :D
01:39:25 <oerjan> always another pragma to add :)
01:39:54 <ehird> oerjan: you should use ghc
01:39:59 <ehird> it has pragmas up the wazoobutt
01:40:15 <oerjan> ehird: a recursive datatype with flexible constructor?
01:40:27 <ehird> but whyfort art touh
01:40:37 <pikhq> ehird: GHC has everything.
01:40:40 <pikhq> And a kitchen sink.
01:41:14 <ehird> argh who is that person thingy
01:41:38 <pikhq> BTW, oerjan: WinGHCi.
01:41:39 <pikhq> http://code.google.com/p/winghci/
01:43:12 <ehird> oerjan: since I'm kind, have a ghc windows installer link:
01:43:22 <ehird> oerjan: http://haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.10.4/ghc-6.10.4-i386-windows.exe
01:43:58 <ehird> oerjan: then unpack http://winghci.googlecode.com/files/WinGhci-1.0-bin.zip to C:\WinGHC or something, and run Install.exe
01:44:21 <ehird> then .hs files open in it, and WinGhci.exe is the REPL.
01:45:19 <ehird> pikhq: we lost him.
01:45:21 <ehird> it was a good effort.
01:45:36 <pikhq> oerjan: YOU SHALL DO PENANCE FOR YOUR SINS!
01:45:53 <pikhq> Also, might I recommend installing Cygwin, or Gentoo GNU/Windows, or Debian GNU/Windows?
01:46:10 <ehird> oerjan: if you open this file, it'll change winhugs to use ghc (which it will install) automatically, with no clicking: http://download.mozilla.org/?product=firefox-3.5.1&os=win&lang=en-US
01:46:23 <ehird> pikhq: do those latter two exist?
01:46:34 <ehird> I'm pretty sure the Debian one doesn't
01:46:39 <ehird> pikhq: googling says no.
01:46:49 <pikhq> Dammit, I could've *sworn* Debian had one.
01:46:53 <pikhq> Gentoo does, though.
01:47:03 <ehird> oerjan: Why do you use IE, incidentally?
01:47:04 <oerjan> you must think i am _blind_ too
01:47:13 <oerjan> it came with the computer
01:47:50 <pikhq> ehird: http://debian-interix.net/ and http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/
01:48:02 <ehird> oerjan: and why do you further the pain of web designers and developers everywhere instead of briefly installing a browser? :(
01:48:17 <pikhq> Gentoo Prefix is for a variety of UNIXes, including Interix.
01:48:30 <ehird> Interix doesn't count.
01:48:49 <pikhq> But it's an entire POSIX subsystem!
01:49:03 <pikhq> Which just needs a credible userspace!
01:49:12 <ehird> I could accept cygwin + a replacement for the WM.
01:49:23 <ehird> Like, you can get Blackbox for Windows, for instance.
01:49:32 <ehird> Just make one that uses an X11 window manager, somehow.
01:49:43 <ehird> (Get it to decorate a fake window of the right size around the Windows window?)
01:49:44 <pikhq> That is significantly harder to do.
01:49:58 <pikhq> ReactOS with some patching?
01:50:05 <ehird> Naw. You can do it with just plain Windows.
01:50:23 <ehird> You'd be able access all of the Windows stuff seamlessly from "X11", and also run X11 apps just the same
01:50:51 <ehird> pikhq: OS X/X11 is something I've been considering a while
01:51:10 <pikhq> ehird: That would be pretty awesome.
01:51:15 <ehird> If you set your background to whatever background you'll use in X11, hide the dock, hide the menu in the Finder and X11 (there's a hack to do this),
01:51:20 <ehird> and set the X11 to open on startup,
01:51:26 <ehird> then set X11 to fullscreen with meta keys going to X11,
01:51:40 <ehird> you'll have a certified Unix with X11, running on the sturdy Quartz system.
01:51:52 <ehird> Unfortunately, you won't inherit Quartz's PDF base and compositing, but you won't get any graphical glitches.
01:52:01 <ehird> (unless they're part of X11's logic rather than its hardware interaction).
01:52:19 <pikhq> BTW, I discovered something somewhat interesting today: Étoilé. Basically, it intends to be GNUstep minus the suck.
01:52:31 <ehird> pikhq: Étoilé is based on GNUstep, actually.
01:52:33 <pikhq> (which is to say, it intends to be OS X plus suck minus suck)
01:52:43 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, and it removes the suck.
01:52:50 <ehird> Nextstep isn't OS X at all.
01:52:51 <pikhq> Thus, GNUstep minus the suck quite literally.
01:52:58 <ehird> It's very markedly different.
01:53:06 <ehird> Etoile is kinda cool but ehh
01:53:13 <ehird> The application set sucks at the moment
01:53:22 <ehird> And it's built on X11 for backwards compatibility, except you're meant to use all its apps.
01:53:29 <ehird> (Well, okay, it's built on X11 because gnustep is and it's there.)
01:53:38 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the main reason I've not switched.
01:53:48 <pikhq> (to at least try it out)
01:54:03 <ehird> But really, they'd best achieve their application-deemphasising goal with their own OS.
01:54:10 <ehird> It's fundamentally a compromise, but it's a purist compromise, so to speak.
01:54:37 <ehird> Their Objective-C Smalltalk is nice, though.
01:55:01 <pikhq> I kinda wish they'd at *least* not build it on X.
01:55:26 <pikhq> But, yeah, it totally seems like something that'd be worth doing from the OS on up.
01:55:55 <ehird> I basically see Unix/X11 as a dead end; you really can't transcend past the systems we have today, because if you try to, you run into its fundamentally exposed implementation details.
01:56:09 <ehird> It is irritating that writing an OS involves so much stuff.
01:56:18 <ehird> And, of course, there's always the lure of replacing the hardware. Sigh.
01:56:54 <pikhq> The UNIX *concept* doesn't seem like much of a dead end.
01:57:09 <ehird> pikhq: It isn't as much so, but Plan 9 ends the line.
01:57:21 <pikhq> Okay, fair enough.
01:57:43 <ehird> In becoming more flexible, you realise that the idea of a hierarchy (what a stupid structure! so restricted for no reason…) of "files" of bytes is not the natural way to represent pretty much anything.
01:58:06 <ehird> Not your personal files; hierarchies are an unnatural way to organise things and have a large cognitive overhead.
01:58:25 <ehird> Not the interfaces; because if they're so great at it, why have C? Why not just have files and a "file FFI", so to speak?
01:58:33 <ehird> Because an array of bytes isn't directly usable.
01:58:51 <pikhq> Unless you generalise and say that everything is an object, and "files" are just named objects...
01:58:52 <ehird> But what, you say, of tools? To which I reply, why are tools and functions separate?
01:59:01 <ehird> pikhq: But, see, a name isn't really the best way to go about it.
01:59:06 <ehird> That's such a restricted way of doing it.
01:59:10 <ehird> pikhq: And that still separates memory and disk.
01:59:50 <pikhq> So, you want something truly, radically different.
02:00:27 <pikhq> I'd like to see it. (no, really; there's been like 0 change in operating system design since the 80s)
02:00:35 <ehird> Yes, I do want something radically different.
02:01:19 <ehird> My plan is to start just above the BIOS (i.e. the operating system; though my plan makes it a rather vague notion); it's impossible to replace the BIOS in the AMD64 environment and I don't think making my own hardware will be too successful.
02:02:13 <ehird> The basic critic would probably be "providing things like garbage collection in the OS is bloat and restrictive!", and my reply is that (a) since everything is the operating system, there is no real "bloat" and (b) a unified sewerage system is restrictive, too.
02:04:04 <pikhq> So, one thing you'd be doing is "fuck filesystems"; the hard drive would be nothing more than nonvolatile object store...
02:04:14 <ehird> pikhq: SSD-optimised, man. :)
02:04:39 <ehird> pikhq: But anything that stores things on disk is a filesystem.
02:05:24 <pikhq> Well, fine. Screw the idea of "the filesystem is a tree of files".
02:06:45 <ehird> Additionally, screw the idea of kernels, more or less.
02:06:58 <ehird> Also, screw the idea of binary blobs as processes; I want a damn unified object system.
02:07:06 <pikhq> That's significantly harder to do (but vaguely feasible)
02:07:35 <ehird> Also, screw just about every orthodox notion in GUIs. (Subclause: Obey Fitt's Law vehemently. I *will* make the mouse cool again, dammit.)
02:07:56 <pikhq> Also the Law of Least Surprise?
02:08:22 <ehird> Raskin had a wonderful thing about that; intuitiveness is meaningless. It means, in common parlance, "familiar".
02:08:42 <ehird> The goal of a UI should be, when it has been learned, as close to zero cognitive overhead as possible.
02:08:52 <ehird> The focus should be on the task and nothing else; this isn't really possible, but you should approach it.
02:09:00 <pikhq> "Least surprise" just means minimal cognitive overhead, really.
02:09:10 <ehird> Raskin's ideas are pretty much perfect.
02:09:17 <ehird> I want to version every object, pretty much.
02:09:29 <ehird> Always undo, never prompt ("formatting a disk" shut up that's niche)
02:09:32 <pikhq> Instead of, say, the Windows model of "AIIIYIIII! I MUST YELL AT YOU AT RANDOM!!!"
02:09:58 <ehird> YOU HAVE CONNECTED A DEVICE TO YOUR COMPUTER
02:10:13 <ehird> WINDOWS: FIGHTING SECONDS-LATER AMNESIA SINCE 198— WHAT WAS I SAYING AGAIN?
02:10:22 <pikhq> Those freaking "notifications" must die.
02:10:33 <pikhq> KDE, sadly, has them.
02:10:39 <pikhq> (at least you can turn them off there)
02:10:56 <ehird> Notifications should be when someone talks to you, pretty much.
02:11:02 <ehird> That's basically it, apart from things like system upgrades.
02:11:29 <ehird> Oh, one UI want that a lot of people overlook: Stable.
02:11:39 <ehird> if you wave your mouse around everywhere, things don't pop down and out and around.
02:11:52 <ehird> Yeah, some discrete hover effects are okay and the like.
02:12:00 <pikhq> ehird: So, at most a highlight effect?
02:12:02 <ehird> But a pixel's move shouldn't cause a gigantic popup menu.
02:12:18 <pikhq> This goes back to law of least surprise.
02:12:21 <ehird> pikhq: It's a general principle, really; the interface should only change more than a little in response to you actually do anything.
02:12:34 <pikhq> (it's amazing how much of good design boils down to that)
02:13:36 <ehird> I've always appreciated a little bit of understated eye candy in UIs.
02:13:41 <ehird> It helps direct the eyes, I think.
02:14:13 <pikhq> Understated, certainly.
02:14:30 <pikhq> So long as you're not forced to actually pay attention to it.
02:14:37 <pikhq> (which is just distracting)
02:15:34 <ehird> The main blocker for my OS is that I don't want to use C and I have a distrust of bootstrapping.
02:15:56 <ehird> And writing a super-speedy high-level language implementation in assembly is how-do-i-put-this.
02:16:08 <pikhq> Absurdly difficult.
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02:16:40 <pikhq> The only commonly used language that's easy to get running from assembly is C.
02:17:35 <ehird> But C isn't really an option… it doesn't fit.
02:18:47 <pikhq> And, of course, C had that as a design goal.
02:19:21 <ehird> "C (the PDP-11 assembler that thinks it's a language)" — jwz
02:20:10 <ehird> I'm also trying to incorporate interwebby things into it from the start.
02:20:28 <ehird> For instance: On the webternets, documents are volatile: nobody needs to ask you to change an object they own.
02:20:52 <pikhq> Hush. C is not a PDP-11 assembler.
02:20:57 <pikhq> It's a PDP-7 assembler.
02:21:15 <ehird> That lead to me thinking about installing components (= sets of objects and methods), and I think using components directly from the 'net but caching them locally could work. On the other hand, that sounds like a leaky abstraction; like RPC and nfs.
02:21:21 <ehird> pikhq: Tell Zawinski :P
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04:09:04 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=User:Sgeo/mutation
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06:12:25 <coppro> I'm back from vacation, bringing with me several great^H^H^H^H^Hhorrible ideas
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06:19:21 <coppro> oh, ehird isn't here to criticize my ideas and/or explain how Haskell already does that
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13:35:50 <ehird> 22:19:21 <coppro> oh, ehird isn't here to criticize my ideas and/or explain how Haskell already does that
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13:37:53 <ehird> 20:09:04 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=User:Sgeo/mutation
13:38:11 <Sgeo> ehird, a game that I liked
13:38:13 <Sgeo> It died in 2005
13:38:30 <ehird> "...that on December 5, 2008, Activeworlds, Inc., renewed every single citizenship from 1995 to today for thirty days?"
13:38:38 <ehird> Looks like you missed it again :P
13:40:09 <ehird> "On March 3rd 2008 at approximately 7:45 PM, the world was upgraded to P-3750 from P-3000 by Flagg."
13:40:16 <ehird> Sgeo: Doesn't look dead to me?
13:41:44 <Sgeo> Mutation was one world in AW, I think that's a different world
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15:35:56 <ehird> I have mastered Safari
15:35:58 <ehird> and beat it with a stick
15:36:07 <ehird> By editing its internal interface files I have removed the google search field from the location field
15:36:28 <ehird> MINIMALISM WILL TRIUMPH
15:36:28 <ehird> —MINIMALIST HITLER!
15:37:10 <oerjan> any relation to tiny carl jung?
15:37:20 <ehird> Only if you're a BITCH.
15:37:24 <FireFly> ehird, fancy to screen your Safari?
15:37:40 <ehird> FireFly: As soon as I decide whether or not to obliterate the backwards/forwards buttons!
15:37:46 <ehird> I'm leaning towards "no"
15:38:09 <FireFly> Maybe I should clean up my Opera layout
15:38:14 <FireFly> But it's already quite slim
15:38:41 <ehird> FireFly: Look at every button or other UI element you haven't used in a week, and remove it.
15:38:52 <ehird> Do the same, but more conservatively, for the last 5 days.
15:39:03 <ehird> If you find yourself going through menus to use something all the time, add it back.
15:39:30 <FireFly> I've already hidden unnecessary stuff such as status bar and menu bar
15:40:12 * ehird fiddles with the .nib some more to remove the remaining space
15:40:14 <oerjan> ehird: does minimalist godwin's law only apply to twitter threads?
15:40:26 <ehird> oerjan: I... have no fucking clue :P
15:41:12 <oerjan> good, good. the conservatives will be pleased.
15:41:24 <oerjan> that you have no clue about fucking, that is.
15:41:43 <ehird> -_------------------
15:42:06 * oerjan isn't sure he can fully interpret that smiley
15:45:47 <ehird> Safari! You are under arrest for an UNREASONABLE amount of interface whitespace!
15:47:39 <oerjan> ehird: that's not whitespace. those are tiny wilderness preserves!
15:47:51 <ehird> Administrative debris, perhaps? ;-)
15:49:27 <oerjan> ehird: or actually, safari is the only browser to practice feng shui in its rendering
15:50:14 <oerjan> it would not be fortunate to draw anything in those spots
15:50:33 <Asztal> So that's why the tabs are upside-down
15:51:17 <oerjan> Asztal: actually, that is just in the western hemisphere
15:51:47 * oerjan is geographically confused
15:52:00 <pikhq> ehird: My webbrowser already *has* a minimalist interface.
15:52:22 <ehird> (1) I didn't talk to you, (2) key invocations count as part of an interface.
15:52:22 <pikhq> It's got a scrollbar to the left, a small bar showing the current location, and a minibuffer.
15:52:57 <pikhq> Minor difference with key invocations: at least the ones you're not using aren't in your face.
15:53:59 <ehird> That is completely irrelevant as any decent interface will be dimmed enough to be unnoticeable: there is still the overhead of remembering and utilising these invocations, just as there is with graphical elements.
15:54:07 <ehird> Graphical elements are usually superior because they are *discoverable*.
15:56:29 <FireFly> http://rapidfiles.net/images/87270tmp9.png <-- Never mind that I accidentally did a find for space
15:57:04 <ehird> That search would help when programming in Whitespace.
15:57:25 <FireFly> True, but a real IDE with syntax highlighting would be better
15:57:38 <FireFly> Even though highlighting whitespace is a bit ironical
15:58:11 <ehird> Ironical is an ironical word.
15:58:26 <ehird> FireFly: with so many tabs in one window i'd probably try the graphical preview tab thingy btw
15:58:32 <pikhq> ehird: And you have to discover them all the time.
15:59:10 <FireFly> But the problem is, each preview is really small anyway
15:59:14 <ehird> pikhq: but really, you're a linux/x11 user, of course you prefer shortcut-based programs because all your UIs suck :-P
15:59:18 <FireFly> But I use the hover-preview feature quite a lot
15:59:20 <ehird> FireFly: make it bigger?
15:59:39 <FireFly> Each preview is only the size of a tab?
16:00:01 <ehird> FireFly: If you use the graphical tab bar thing you can resize it to be bigger.
16:00:21 <FireFly> Yeah, but only in one direction (the height)
16:00:35 <ehird> FireFly: if you put it on the side maybe?
16:01:46 <FireFly> Well, I like my tabs as they are
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16:39:21 <ehird> maybe I should try running OS X/X11 :-D
16:43:41 <ehird> what wm/de should i use :D
16:46:55 <ehird> pikhq: mmmmmmmno :P
16:47:06 <ehird> I'll just install X11 to start with
16:47:10 <ehird> and use tw fuckin' m
16:47:20 <ehird> meanwhile, it'll be a fucking pain to get it all restored when I get bored
16:47:32 <pikhq> twm's a royal pain.
16:48:35 <ehird> i'd make a video of it booting up after this, but my iphone can't do that :(
16:48:56 <ehird> I should grab that X11 opening screen
16:49:00 <ehird> the alternating black/white
16:52:38 <ehird> not perfect but it'll do
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16:53:31 <ehird> i'm basically detonating a nuclear bomb to have a pretty light show here
16:53:36 <ehird> i'll have to put eeeeeeverything back manually
16:54:44 * ehird removes the Dock totally, replaces the Finder with X11
16:54:47 <ehird> I should keep backups.
17:02:52 <ehird> This is just ridiculous.
17:07:31 <ehird> i'm disabling every single part of mac os x that isn't vital, then replacing the Finder with X11
17:07:45 <ehird> the issue is that putting it all back will be a fucking pain
17:07:56 <ehird> coppro: well it involves moving a lot of system files around and then forgetting about them.
17:10:25 <ehird> also I'm having to switch windows by doing open -a 'app' in the terminal
17:10:27 <ehird> not even cmd-tab works
17:13:02 <ehird> coppro: anyway, how's it logical :P
17:18:07 <ehird> oh right i remember you hate apple because… actually i don't even recall you giving a reason
17:18:07 <ehird> Quartz is an apple technology anyway, so suck it
17:18:07 <ehird> meanwhile, x11 compiles slowly.
17:18:07 <coppro> I hate Apple because of their business practices
17:18:07 <coppro> nothing against their product
17:18:19 <pikhq> ehird: That's fekking crazy.
17:18:28 <ehird> if you have nothing against their product then removing the apple stuff would not warrant "logical"
17:18:31 <pikhq> This coming from a guy who hates his mouse.
17:18:32 <ehird> because I already bought it.
17:18:42 <ehird> pikhq: it's intermediate :P
17:18:56 <ehird> anyway there are better companies than apple to hate
17:19:22 <ehird> they comply by licenses, they release code they don't even have to, and it's an open platform… the iphone is a fuck up, but totally unrelated
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17:24:12 <coppro> so while I was on vacation I had a horrible horrible idea
17:24:24 <ehird> if it doesn't involve murder it isn't horrible.
17:27:57 <coppro> sorry, got sidetracked
17:28:08 <ehird> yeah you should never d ooh shiny
17:28:40 <coppro> A programming language where each subexpression is, rather than interpreted and evaluated in some other manner, simply pattern matched against every available function
17:29:03 <ehird> ais523: tell coppro how mathematica works
17:29:18 <ehird> ais523: not like that :P
17:29:24 <ais523> but yes, it's all pattern matching behind the scenes
17:29:39 <ais523> combined with lots of calls out to C in an attempt to gain a semblence of efficiency
17:29:54 <ais523> also, see Thutu, which is like Mathematica but with a considerably smaller stdlib
17:30:03 <coppro> yes, but the idea is to take it to a level of horribleness
17:30:10 <ehird> mathematica is that horrible :P
17:30:12 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thutu
17:30:17 <ais523> or, as ehird says, mathematica
17:31:17 <pikhq> coppro: So, Haskell if *everything* were a case statement. You're mad, man.
17:31:28 <coppro> looking at Thutu, which doesn't seem like what I want
17:31:51 <ais523> what's wrong with it? is it something different from what you expected?
17:32:14 <coppro> Where can I declare my arbitrary pattern-matching functions to effectively alter the syntax
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17:34:49 <ais523> well, in Thutu, you're more or less doing that; it's just that there are two syntaxes to think about, the syntax of Thutu (fixed), and the syntax of the string it operates on (variable)
17:38:24 <coppro> but where's the pattern matching?
17:39:20 <ehird> alrighty, what WM should I use to start with!
17:41:54 <ais523> ehird: do you want a lightweight or heavyweight one?
17:42:12 <ais523> just because I haven't heard anyone hear claim they use it
17:42:12 <ehird> just want something simple but conventional to get me into OS X/Quartz/X11 mode
17:42:27 <ehird> and it's a single-tasking environment, so.
17:42:50 <ais523> fluxbox and xfce are the conventional relatively simple ones, aren't they?
17:43:58 <ehird> i hate fluxbox and xfce is a DE
17:45:41 <pikhq> I'm going to nominate that for "craziest damned thing done to OS X", mmkay?
17:46:18 <ais523> ehird: is this your classic mac box?
17:46:28 <ehird> that thing runs Mac OS 9.1
17:46:42 <ais523> I thought you were trying to get it to run Linux
17:46:48 <ehird> ais523: i'm basically making an X11/Unix system, except the X11 server runs on top of Quartz as the graphics backend
17:47:01 <ehird> Quartz is what powers OS X's regular GUI
17:47:06 <ais523> sort of like implementing X11 using GDI on Windows?
17:47:07 <ehird> so I'm disabling everything, setting X11 to start up fullscreen
17:47:11 <ehird> ais523: sorta, yeah
17:47:32 <ehird> it'll also use the keyboard/mouse from OS X's gui
17:49:05 <pikhq> ehird: Thou art mad.
17:49:16 <ehird> quite so good chap
17:49:24 <pikhq> It'd be totally awesome if OS X windows were being managed by the X11 window manager, though.
17:49:38 <pikhq> ... I'm not sure why you'd do that, mind, but it would be awesome.
17:51:16 <ehird> if this breaks, i love you guys! or something
17:51:49 <ehird> [ehird:~] % cd /System/Library/CoreServices
17:51:49 <ehird> [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] % sudo mv Finder.app Finder.old.app
17:51:50 <ehird> [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] % sudo ln -s /Applications/MacPorts/X11.app/ Finder.app
17:51:50 <ehird> [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] %
17:51:54 <ehird> and now to restart
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17:54:52 <ehird> Holy crap, it worked.
17:55:32 <ais523> do you have any easy way to start applications from here?
17:55:33 <ehird> It went a bit weird when I tried to restart, but starting it up manually... it just worked.
17:55:38 <ehird> ais523: twm menu, xterms
17:56:04 <ehird> 44 ?? 0:00.02 /bin/sh /Library/Parallels/Parallels Service.app/Conten
17:56:08 <ehird> ts/Resources/ParallelsDispatcherService start
17:56:28 <pikhq> All the elegance of OS X's Unixy underpinnings with all the beauty of X11. ... Wait, that can't be right.
17:56:52 <ehird> ugh a lot of vmware fusion stuff too
17:57:07 <ehird> lol, if I unfullscreen x11 i don't have any cursor
17:57:23 <pikhq> That must be done by Finder.app usually.
17:57:28 <ehird> just the blue startup background and the menubar :D
17:57:31 <ehird> and i'm going to disable the menubar
17:57:39 <ehird> so control-option-a will become my "YAY BLUE" key
17:57:52 <ehird> pikhq: also, hey, I have Finder.app open!
17:57:56 <ehird> it just happens to be a symlink to X11 ;-)
17:58:19 <ehird> it really works snappily, this
17:59:01 <ehird> ok, if i get rid of parallels and vmware fusion, i'll just have system stuff, the ui server, and x11
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17:59:12 <ehird> hello not_from_mibbit/ais523
17:59:22 <ehird> um okay i need a browser for this thing
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17:59:45 <ehird> argh i hate sloppy focus
17:59:59 <ehird> hey pikhq! should i install gnome or kde on this? optimise for hilarity, not practicality.
18:00:09 <Deewiant> Gnome is always more hilarious
18:00:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm offended; I like gnome.
18:00:26 <pikhq> Run Gnome with Kwin.
18:00:40 <ehird> Kwin is the worst part of KD E:P
18:00:56 <pikhq> Fine, fine. Sawtooth and KDE.
18:00:59 <Deewiant> ehird: A gnome is more hilarious than some dragon any day
18:01:09 <pikhq> (yes, yes, the window manager GNOME hasn't used since 2002)
18:01:21 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't think Gnome's mascot is a gnome :-P
18:01:27 <ehird> Unless it's one of them foot-shaped gnomes.
18:01:33 <ehird> Your face is irrelevant.
18:01:55 <ehird> Wow, my mouse wheel works in w3m in an xterm.
18:02:02 <ehird> That's... unexpected.
18:02:39 <pikhq> ehird: X adds more features all the time, and terminal apps can does mouse.
18:02:59 <ais523> ehird: not just that, it handles clicks too
18:03:12 <ehird> that's less surprising
18:03:13 <ais523> is it that you have to double-click on links to follow them?
18:03:27 <ais523> and no, less handles the wheel without mouse handling
18:03:36 <ehird> Yes, but I knew you could handle the buttons
18:03:39 <ais523> as mouse wheel in a terminal with curses grabbing defaults to simulating up/down keypresses
18:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, I'm going to restart now to test the menu hid-- fuck, I don't know how to restart.
18:03:56 <ais523> ehird: just tell init to restart?
18:04:03 <ehird> No init; this is X11.
18:04:09 <ehird> Launchd probably has a shutdown command or whatever.
18:04:32 <ais523> try sudo telinit 6, they may have implemented telinit anyway
18:04:41 <ehird> shutdown Prepare for system shutdown
18:04:45 <ehird> "prepare" worries me
18:05:07 * ehird sudo shutdown -r now
18:05:09 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal").
18:05:38 <pikhq> ais523: They stopped using init years ago.
18:05:51 <ais523> pikhq: still, telinit is pretty easy to implement even without init
18:06:09 <ais523> you could probably implement it for Windows in a few lines of cmd batch script
18:07:22 -!- ehird has joined.
18:07:30 <ehird> the menu bar is still there but now i have a mouse in OS X mode
18:07:55 <ehird> if I open an OS X app, it goes to the blue OS X mode
18:07:57 <ehird> and opens it there
18:08:00 <ehird> it goes back to X11
18:08:04 <ehird> unintentional integration FTW!
18:10:29 <ais523> reminds me of how windows 3.1 ran dos apps
18:10:55 <ehird> btw it just happens because X11 defocuses for the new app, then when it closes it focuses X11 back :)
18:11:12 <pikhq> ais523: 3.1 had a DOS console. It only becomes fullscreen when the DOS app uses graphics routines.
18:11:33 <ais523> pikhq: yes, but nobody used the DOS console because it was rather buggy
18:11:41 <ais523> and you could set it to fullscreen console apps too
18:13:24 * pikhq is amazed that Microsoft released IE5 for Windows 3.1...
18:14:09 <pikhq> Okay, more amazing: Windows 3.11 stopped being sold in *2008*...
18:14:11 <ehird> okay guys, gnome or kde
18:15:14 <ais523> ehird: are you considering KDE 3 or 4?
18:15:31 <ais523> IMO, 4's still too buggy to really use day-to-day
18:15:36 <ais523> so I'd go for Gnome with that choice
18:15:54 <ehird> you may have been right, like, a year ago.
18:15:55 <ais523> all sorts of weird things happen when I try to use the packaged version here
18:16:03 <ais523> and I last tried a couple of months ago
18:20:30 <ehird> twm can grow a window but not shrink it
18:21:25 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:21:38 <pikhq> Yeah, TWM doesn't... Do much.
18:22:41 * ehird realises he'll have to compile gnome or kde, ew
18:22:44 <ehird> that'll take years
18:24:22 <ais523> so it's not hard, just time-consuiming
18:28:04 <ehird> bah, I'm bored of this; how predictable
18:29:17 <ehird> sorry to disappoint but i'm reverting.
18:30:25 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal").
18:33:21 -!- ehird has joined.
18:34:40 * coppro tries to think up a workable syntax for Stutter
18:34:54 <ehird> is that your rewriter thing?
18:35:20 <ehird> just have one rewrite rule, /regex/ → "replacement string"
18:35:24 <ehird> and a few primitives
18:35:33 <ehird> same fuckin' thing
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18:36:19 <coppro> pattern matching is a semantic element of a language; regexes are text processing
18:36:51 <ehird> regexps are just pattern matching on strings.
18:37:23 <ais523> it's rather INTERCAL-specific, but it's a domain-specific language that does pattern matching on trees
18:38:07 <ais523> it's documented in the C-INTERCAL Revamped Manual
18:38:10 <ais523> in one of the appendices
18:38:22 <ais523> I use it to write INTERCAL optimisers, it's a language specifically designed for just one thing
18:38:29 <ais523> ehird: nah, wrong manual
18:38:36 <coppro> I'm thinking that all "true" keywords will have to be delimited, say with #
18:38:56 <ais523> pattern matching doesn't need keywords
18:39:04 <coppro> you need some sort of built-ins
18:39:24 <ais523> pattern matching's TC even without built-ins
18:39:26 <coppro> because some constructs cannot be expressed in the language itself
18:39:43 <ais523> pretty rubbish language if that's the case
18:39:45 <coppro> for instance, you need to define pattern matching
18:40:01 <ais523> you can do that with pattern matching
18:40:07 <ais523> obviously, the regress will need to bottom out somewhere
18:40:22 <coppro> err.. man, that came out wrong. I meant that some constructs cannot be constructed with the language but must be expressed directly in it
18:40:30 <ais523> what are you thinking of?
18:40:36 <ais523> Thue is TC, to give you an idea of what I'm getting at
18:41:03 <coppro> right, but Thue has a built-in ::= construct
18:42:16 <coppro> furthermore, I want a type system
18:42:46 <ehird> Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.
18:43:15 <coppro> and you need a mechanism to interface with it
18:43:28 <coppro> it's not a string-rewriting language
18:45:10 <coppro> pikhq's description was closest
18:45:27 <ais523> coppro: ah, ok, so it's more OIL-like than thutu-like
18:45:32 <ais523> term-rewriting, presumably
18:45:45 <ais523> OIL has a fixed type system, presumably you're going for something more flexible
18:46:03 <coppro> can you link to the C-INTERCAL manual, or is that in the package?
18:46:15 <ais523> it's in the package, or should be
18:46:25 <ais523> there's an online version somewhere too, try http://select.intercal.org
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18:49:13 <coppro> I'm not on Linux right now :/
18:50:36 <coppro> I'm trying to decide between true term rewriting and more traditional imperative evaluation, except using pattern matching to determine what to do in every instance
18:51:25 <coppro> the biggest headache is recursive constructs
18:52:31 <coppro> for j in { for i in foo do bar done} do {baz} done should clearly be allowed
18:53:18 <coppro> but what about without the braces?
18:55:46 <ais523> coppro: `` for the first set of braces
18:55:53 <ais523> or $() if you want it to nest
18:56:13 <coppro> ais523: no, I mean "for j in for i in foo do bar done do baz done"
18:56:18 <coppro> in theory it's parseable
18:56:27 <ehird> um that's trivially parsable
18:56:29 <ais523> trivially, Lua parses like that
18:56:41 <coppro> but writing a pattern matching rule for that is nasty
18:56:52 <ais523> not if you have recursive patterns
18:57:03 <ais523> actually, just go look up perl6 regexes, rather than reinventing the wheel
18:57:10 <ais523> as opposed to perl5 regexes, I think they do exactly what you want
18:57:23 <ais523> they aren't really regexes, just called that
18:57:25 <ehird> perl 6 regexes aren't
18:57:28 <ehird> also, stop saying "not regexes"
18:57:29 <ais523> they're more some sort of massive BNF
18:57:40 <coppro> get the freaking regexes out of your head
18:57:58 <ais523> coppro: the issue is, you seem to have a predefined concept of what a regex is
18:58:07 <ehird> ais523: said it better than i could have
18:58:12 <ais523> whereas what you're doing is /exactly/ the way regexes were generalised for, say, perl6 and cyclexa
18:58:21 <coppro> ais523: but I'm not looking for text replacement
18:58:27 <ehird> coppro: you're being stupid. stop that.
18:58:31 <ehird> it's not good to be stupid :P
18:58:43 <ais523> perl6 regexes do general pattern matching
18:58:49 <ais523> you can match them on arrays, for instance
18:58:54 <ais523> or complex data structures
19:01:36 <ais523> hmm... apparently emacs now shows PDFs
19:02:47 <coppro> ais523: hmm... reading the Apocalypse - still looks like text matching
19:03:10 <ais523> they start with the bits that perl5 programmers will understand
19:04:12 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
19:04:56 <coppro> can you point out where it says you can match arbitrary structures in a non-string manner?
19:06:38 <pikhq> ais523: Emacs has a very hard time figuring out how to add impressive new features. ;)
19:06:38 <ais523> well, in perl6 you create the arbitrary structures from strings with the regices, which isn't quite what you're doing, but similar
19:06:51 <ais523> pikhq: they also added M-x butterfly, but I can't find a source saying what it does
19:07:31 <pikhq> ais523: xkcd reference.
19:07:42 <ais523> but just because it's an xkcd reference doesn't explain what it does
19:07:50 <pikhq> http://www.nabble.com/Support-for-butterfly-editing-td15349699.html
19:07:53 <coppro> I'm thinking something more like ML pattern matching
19:08:09 <ais523> <emacs> Command: Use butterflies to flip the desired bit on the drive platter.
19:09:04 <ais523> apparently you type it M-x butterfly C-M-c; they had to permute C-x M-c M-butterfly to get it to fit within the usual command sequences
19:11:07 <pikhq> That's not to get it to fit within the usual command sequences. That permutation is to press the butterfly key without physically having one.
19:11:28 <ais523> I'm trying to find the source of this thing to see how it's implemented
19:19:22 <ais523> ooh, one improvement in emacs 23 that might be everyday-useful
19:19:35 <ais523> you can now type C-x 8 RET in order to enter special characters by hex code or name
19:20:14 * ais523 C-x 8 RET GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA
19:20:17 <ais523> it even tab-completes!
19:20:56 <fizzie> Heh, a funny percentage indicator for "loading unicode character names" when I first pressed the tab.
19:26:08 <ais523> also, the new behaviour of C-l is useful, I've been using that a lot
19:26:26 <ais523> (I use emacs-snapshot, so I've had many of emacs 23's changes for ages)
19:27:11 <pikhq> Antialiasing is also nice.
19:35:14 -!- ehird has quit.
19:37:36 <fizzie> See what your senseless praise of emacs did! Now ehird has quit.
19:38:02 <ais523> M-x butterfly C-M-c would be a lot more useful if it could flip bits on other people's drives
19:39:25 <fizzie> Well, let's ask testlm-disk.pl about Emacs. "emacs is objectively superior... nice title animation, video, pictures?! it isn't an executable"
19:40:18 <fizzie> Also, aliens use rj45.
19:59:30 -!- ehird has joined.
20:04:30 <ehird> [19:07] pikhq: http://www.nabble.com/Support-for-butterfly-editing-td15349699.html
20:04:44 <ehird> that's lame, they should use the 1-bit-a-month error rate for non-ECC memory
20:04:53 <ehird> and calculate how long it should take to flip a bit in this file
20:04:56 <ais523> that's memory, not hard disk as in the comic
20:04:57 <ehird> then wait that long
20:05:07 <ehird> ais523: just map the portion of ram to disk, duh
20:05:08 <ais523> so it would have to be repeatedly loading files into memory, then writing them back out
20:05:11 <ehird> as in, automatically persisted
20:05:26 <ehird> anyway, I hate programs having more than one simple easter egg
20:06:22 <ehird> (a) they're amusing perhaps once (b) they are the most flagrant violation of the understanding that features have a cost possible (c) it takes time that could be spent doing better things and (d) referencing everything xkcd says is not funny
20:06:53 <ais523> ehird: but if people are kind enough to write and submit the easter egg, why not commit it
20:07:04 <ais523> also, IIRC INTERCAL is nothing /but/ easter eggs
20:07:15 <ehird> you know what i hate? when someone tries to rebut a whole line by trying to rebut one part of it
20:07:17 <ehird> and ignoring the others
20:07:36 <pikhq> ehird: It was added in misc.el, which isn't loaded by default.
20:07:48 <ais523> ehird: no, I'm just rebutting some of the points, a rebuttal for all of them would take quite a while and probably not fit in 510 characters
20:08:03 <ehird> ais523: your rebuttal was rebutted by one of my original points
20:08:06 <ehird> so it was utterly useless
20:08:09 <ais523> (d) seems to be irrelevant, as there's more than one xkcd comic in existence
20:08:26 <ais523> and having more interesting features motivates more people to help maintain them
20:08:46 <ehird> i've lost count how many times i've had this discussion, fuck it
20:09:07 <pikhq> ehird: I'm just going to say that Emacs is the posterchild for bloat and leave it at that.
20:09:21 <ehird> it goes deeper than that, but yes, i despise emacs
20:17:16 <bsmntbombdood> do you think it would be possible to use gps along with some accelerometers to calculate position to a few centimeters?
20:17:36 <ehird> with a very precise gps and very good accelerometers, yes :P
20:17:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: augmented reality stuff?
20:18:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: there's an iphone app for iirc the toronto train station thingy that overlays where to go for stations on top of the camera feed; i think it works on all iphones so i guess it works with camera + accelerometer; if not then that + gps
20:18:40 <ehird> prolly uses the camera image
20:18:46 <ehird> but the video i saw was quite good
20:19:09 <bsmntbombdood> the iphone can't have that good accelerometers in it
20:19:30 <ehird> and it's fairly regular
20:19:38 <ehird> so it probably relies a lot on the camera but it was very good
20:19:50 <ehird> i'm not sure how it works, really
20:20:04 <ehird> maybe the compass thingy, i think the iphone 3g s has one
20:21:07 <ehird> yeah, i really don't know; but it did it really well
20:21:18 <ehird> overlayed it perfectly and you could tilt it and it updated in less than a second
20:21:31 <ehird> so it's obviously possible with just a few tools
20:25:42 <ais523> you can make a bad accelerometer with a weight, a potentiometer, and a pair of springs
20:25:52 <ais523> presumably the good ones work on the same principle, but more accurately
20:29:15 <bsmntbombdood> would a gyro be helpful at all in addition with accelerometers
20:30:09 <ais523> gyro determines orientation, accelerometers determine movement
20:30:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, but it may be delicious.
20:30:28 <ais523> you can try to dead-reckon orientation from movement, but you'll probably mess up
20:31:33 <bsmntbombdood> so with a single gyro and a 1-access accelerometer you can dead reckon 2d position
20:31:54 <ais523> no, you'd need to accelerometers
20:32:18 <ehird> that's like saying "ehird jump"
20:32:22 <Gracenotes> uh.... what the heck is Gorm and why do I have it installed on my computer?
20:32:24 <ais523> the setup you mentioned couldn't detect the device being moved sideways wrt the accelerometer
20:32:37 <ehird> GNUstep Developer Tools - Gorm
20:32:37 <ehird> Gorm stands for "Graphical Object Relationship Modeller" and is GNUstep's easy- to-use interface designer. In the following sections you will learn more ...
20:32:45 <ehird> GORM is Grails' object relational mapping (ORM) implementation. Under the hood it uses Hibernate 3 (an extremely popular and flexible open source ORM ...
20:32:59 <bsmntbombdood> but if you have two accelerometers you dont' need a gyro
20:33:03 <Gracenotes> must be GNUStep. but still doesn't answer, why the hell do I have it here >_<
20:33:08 <ais523> you do, in case the device is rotated
20:33:13 <ehird> Gracenotes: you installed gnustep development tools?
20:33:30 <Gracenotes> er. that might be it. but this.. clunky GUI thing... really?
20:33:33 <ais523> you could use a third accelerometer to try to detect rotations, but a gyro works better for that
20:33:42 <ehird> for the record I haven't read the discussion: the single accelero in the iphone can detect tilts and spinning
20:33:53 <ehird> you can tilt it forwards and backwards, and change its orientation
20:34:13 <ais523> ehird: it's going to be what's effectively multiple accelerometers in one package, possibly using just the one weight
20:34:24 <ehird> ais523: hmm really?
20:34:26 <ais523> as in, it's equivalent to several accelerometers, but possibly just in one package
20:34:40 <ais523> and with components in common
20:34:46 <ehird> http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/7/4/Apple_iPhone_4.jpg
20:34:46 <bsmntbombdood> but 3 accelerometers are good for 3 dimensions right?
20:34:54 <ehird> it doesn't have a gyro
20:34:56 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: yes, assuming you know your orientation
20:35:00 <ais523> ehird: dead-reckoning, then
20:35:23 <ais523> ehird: accelerometers can't figure out orientations, but they can figure out rotations, and deduce the orientation from that
20:35:49 <ais523> they'd need to be very accurate to prevent errors accumulating, though
20:35:49 <ehird> ais523: that might be why sometimes my iphone is in one position but thinks it's the other, and flipping the other way and back again fixes it
20:36:14 <bsmntbombdood> so with 4 coplaner but not coliner accelerometers, you don't need a gyro, right?
20:37:53 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: yes, assuming that the lines they measure don't have a common point either
20:38:04 <ais523> although, if they're all coplanar, you can't measure the third dimension at all
20:38:36 <ais523> either that, or you don't realise what "coplanar" means
20:39:51 <evenant> sitting in the same aisle in a flight to california?
20:39:57 <ais523> the point is, if all the accelerometers are in the same plane, and pointing along it, they can't distinguish up from down
20:40:19 <ais523> evenant: bad puns are oerjan's job
20:40:22 <ais523> but he isn't here, so I'll forgive you
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20:52:03 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day, everyone!
20:52:18 <ehird> that means i'm 14 in 23 days…
20:52:33 <ehird> where does the time go, i say
20:54:25 <ehird> (I likely won't be saying that when I'm 16.)
20:54:36 <FireFly> Yeah, well it is quite meh
20:54:51 <ehird> ((If I haven't died from all the COPIOUS ALCOHOL, DRUGS AND ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC that all the teenagers so vigourously consume.))
20:55:13 <FireFly> Since MUSIC is so deadly, right?
20:56:55 -!- coppro has joined.
21:12:04 <FireFly> [22:11:39] <jelly> w00t, that new snapshot has tunable tab bar width
21:12:12 <FireFly> Maybe it's worth checking out the new Opera snapshot
21:12:26 <ehird> CESSMASTER: but not as good as 420 amirite
21:12:39 <ehird> ALAS SCIENCE CANNOT YET ACHIEVE THIS
21:14:34 <CESSMASTER> being 420 years old would fucking suck what's the matter with you
21:15:39 <ehird> don't shoot the messenger man
21:15:57 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:18:55 <ais523> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/31/office_for_mac_service_pack_woes/
21:26:53 <Deewiant> "Exactly when in August, however, is not mentioned." -- probably Patch Tuesday as usual
21:28:54 <pikhq> ehird: Rock and roll þou ſayeſt
21:29:23 * pikhq ſtarts ſome of þis "rock" and "roll".
21:31:47 * ehird farts some of his rock and roll
21:32:14 <pikhq> Oh, aren't you just the soul of wit?
21:50:11 -!- ehird has quit.
21:51:43 <Leonidas> hmm, 16 -> 17 is meh, also back then when I was 16 -> 17
21:58:32 <FireFly> Yeah, well, I'd rather have it 16 -> 15; one more year of not having to work and stuff
21:58:48 <FireFly> Of course going 0 -> -1 wouldn't really be nice
21:59:05 <FireFly> Neither would 0 -> 255 (or similar) if the age is unsigned
22:02:27 -!- ehird has joined.
22:02:49 <pikhq> FireFly: 255->0 would be an improvement on that.
22:03:04 <pikhq> Still suck, though.
22:03:41 * Leonidas would prefer to stay 20, forever
22:03:52 <Leonidas> Maybe there is some gameshark cheat for that
22:05:19 <FireFly> Just freeze the value your age pointer points to
22:05:37 <FireFly> But you prolly don't have access to that, need to be root
22:06:03 <ehird> 20-something is a good age, methinks.
22:06:53 -!- FireFly has set topic: You can discuss anything except weird programming languages, which is strictly forbidden. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
22:07:10 <FireFly> Whatever, just removed an unnecessary space
22:10:49 -!- ais523 has set topic: You can discuss anything except weird programming languages, which is srictly forbidden. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
22:10:55 * ais523 introduces a typo into the topic
22:11:59 <ehird> "is" should be "are" anyway
22:12:10 <ehird> can anyone explain this (apart from "he's bullshitting")? http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/969sy/your_ip_ip_address_has_been_logged_your_isp_wrong/c0bkohn
22:12:23 <FireFly> At least you save us one byte of transfer on join
22:12:32 * ais523 boggles at the sentence-like structure in that URL
22:12:35 <FireFly> Changing to are would of course nullify that effect
22:12:40 <ais523> "Your IP IP address has been logged your ISP wrong"/
22:12:44 <ehird> ais523: Post title slug.
22:12:51 <ehird> A load of blogs make URLs out of the post title, too.
22:12:59 <ehird> It's a comment on it
22:13:42 <ais523> my guess is that he has two computers
22:13:52 <ehird> ais523: that falls under "he's bullshitting"
22:13:54 <ais523> one of which he's successfully connected to 127.0.0.1 on and thinks it's internet-connected
22:13:59 <ais523> the other of which he's using to comment on reddit
22:13:59 <ehird> while that is quite likely, it's also pointless
22:14:10 <ehird> i'm asking for a technical explanation
22:14:12 <ais523> I think it's being confused and deluded, rather than bullshit
22:14:27 <ehird> "I don't even know how I'm on the interwebs."
22:14:31 <ehird> obviously that implies being on that computer
22:14:37 <ais523> it is theoretically possible to be internet-connected without a connection other than the mains cable
22:14:39 <ehird> "This thing is so old that it doesn't have an internal wireless adapter, and I'm not using any cables either. Maybe the interweb courses through my veins?"
22:14:53 <ais523> networking through mains cables - which are still giving power at the same time - has been a solved problem for a while
22:14:58 <ehird> I don't think there's any motive to lie and he seems pretty straight about it, but…
22:15:04 <ehird> I can't figure out how it could happen.
22:15:11 <ehird> I'm guessing that it actually DOES do wireless.
22:15:11 <ais523> but it never really caught on, and I think there were regulatory problems
22:15:23 <ais523> ehird: "This thing" doesn't necessarily mean "the computer I'm using"
22:15:41 <ais523> oh, that was it, networking via mains cable blocked short-wave radio as a weird side-effect
22:15:43 <ehird> Shall I say it one more time? I'm not asking for explanations that involve him deliberately using misleading language to fuck with us
22:15:58 <ais523> ehird: I'm saying, it may be accidentally misleading
22:16:22 <ehird> ais523: So you're suggesting this guy, after trying to connect to the internet loads and loads of times, never tried to open a site?
22:17:04 <ais523> ehird: my assumption is that he thinks he's connected, but that the web isn't working
22:17:10 <ais523> he's obviously technical enough to know some things, but not others
22:17:18 <ais523> so my guess is, he thinks that if he can ping anything, he's connected
22:17:25 <ais523> and it's something elsewhere that isn't working if he can't visit websites
22:18:21 <ehird> NOBODY tries repeatedly to get the internet working on a computer, pings sites multiple times ("my pings come back 100%") and doesn't try to load anything.
22:18:21 <ehird> "and, well, here I am."
22:18:33 <ehird> So he's definitely saying the internet works on _that machine_.
22:18:58 <ais523> well, if it's a laptop with an unsecured wireless connection near it, it may have connected to the connection automatically
22:19:15 <ehird> "it's plugged in for power"
22:19:22 <ehird> that isn't the kind of thing someone with a laptop would say
22:19:26 <ais523> ehird: I normally run my laptop plugged in
22:19:30 <ais523> the battery life here is about 20 minutes
22:19:40 <ehird> and he was obviously listing the needed cables
22:19:40 <ais523> so for me it effectively is required
22:19:56 <ehird> he thinks it's so old it doesn't do wireless
22:20:01 <ehird> I'm gonna go with "not a laptop"
22:20:12 <ehird> otherwise, it'd be a pentium, 5kg dealie
22:20:35 <ais523> desktops didn't commonly do wireless ever
22:21:11 <ehird> perhaps I need to call bullshit on things more often, otherwise I'll just get confused
22:23:21 <ehird> "Twitkitteh is, quite simply, the first Twitter application written specifically for cats."
22:23:36 <ehird> ("We at TLA Systems are pleased to announce that with Apple’s new App Store policy changes now in effect, Twitkitteh will very soon be the only iPhone Twitter client available to the under-17 market.")
22:23:41 <ehird> I wonder if that's in cat years or not.
22:37:12 <Leonidas> hmm, encode cat pictures in 140 bytes for twitter. Fun.
22:37:30 <ehird> i remember that compression thingy
22:37:46 <Leonidas> Maybe there is a programming language that parses 140 bytes and spits out pictures of cats.
22:37:57 <ehird> Leonidas: they have that
22:37:59 <ehird> it's called twitter
22:38:24 <Leonidas> ehird: yep, but I want actual images, not bit.ly urls
22:38:59 <Leonidas> C======a=============================t would produce the picture of langcat
22:39:39 <ehird> we should make langcats
22:39:43 <ehird> they're cats that represent eso-langs
22:41:42 <Leonidas> @ehird: so this is the langcat for "Chef" http://bit.ly/5pbwi
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22:59:52 -!- cmeme has joined.
23:15:03 <ehird> ais523: has cmeme been in here all this time?
23:15:07 <ehird> I thought it died with ircbrowse.com
23:15:12 <ais523> ehird: not that I remember
23:15:20 <ais523> maybe ircbrowse.com are logging us again
23:15:25 <ehird> nah, it's still down
23:15:45 <ehird> i think it has been here
23:16:25 <FireFly> Is cmeme in any way related to clog, except for both being bots associated with loggin, beginning on the same character?
23:16:38 <ais523> no, they're different organisations entirely
23:17:12 <ehird> that's a simplification
23:17:16 <ehird> For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/.
23:17:17 <ehird> For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com.
23:17:17 <ehird> Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/.
23:17:33 <ehird> so it WAS clog at one point
23:17:35 <ehird> but then changed over to cmeme
23:17:36 <ais523> oh yes, the people who run (ran?) clog know that cmeme exist
23:17:45 <ehird> meme used to be an interface to clog logs
23:17:49 <ehird> then they started using cmeme instead
23:18:05 <ais523> really? from that, all that it seems to imply is that meme started doing the same thing, and tunes linked to them
23:18:19 <ehird> These logs are purposely "raw" and are intended to be parsed/reformated/wrapped before viewing.
23:18:19 <ehird> Annoyances such as horizontal window scrolling are due to the poor choice of viewer.
23:18:19 <ehird> For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/.
23:18:19 <ehird> For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com.
23:18:20 <ehird> Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/.
23:18:30 <ais523> "for even prettier logs"
23:18:37 <ehird> it's rather obvious in context that it's listing pretty ways to view clog logs, ais523.
23:18:39 <ais523> not "for an even prettier version of these logs"
23:18:43 <ehird> since cmeme DOESN'T LOG THE SAME CHANNELS.
23:18:50 <ehird> so that line would be utterly stupid
23:18:55 <ais523> then, the last one, is "for cmeme's logs in clog format"
23:18:59 <ais523> the last would be pointless otherwise
23:18:59 <ehird> "If you want nicer-tasting chicken, why not eat a dog?"
23:19:08 <ehird> that's not even a remotely valid reading of it
23:19:17 <pikhq> ais523: Clearly, it makes logs more beautiful by making them untruthful when the truth is ugly.
23:19:18 <ehird> clog has no format
23:19:27 <ais523> ehird: yes, it does, it's just a plaintext dump
23:19:30 <ais523> but it's still a format
23:19:40 <ais523> and it outputs in a particular format
23:21:17 <ehird> "Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/." ;; if anything, this is a meme interface to clog logs
23:21:29 <ehird> but i am 100% sure it does not mean "here is the previous line in raw format"
23:21:34 <ehird> because that's *not what it says at all*
23:22:21 <ais523> a "virtual clog" would be something that worked the same way as clog, whilst not being clog
23:22:31 <ehird> ais523: "virtual _ apache directories"
23:22:34 <ehird> virtual directories in apache
23:22:35 <ais523> as in "meme also do the same thing as us, as well as providing pretty logs"
23:22:37 <ehird> i.e. not real files
23:23:25 <ais523> unfortunately the Wayback Machine doesn't have the content that used to be there
23:23:50 <ais523> why would anyone link to an alternate name for the same thing? a different logbot with the same output format is useful, though
23:24:14 <ehird> please, you're depressing me that a seemingly sane person could possibly mangle the interpretation of the english language in such a way
23:24:23 <ehird> it's like you're disregarding the sentence and substituting a meaning
23:24:55 <pikhq> ehird: English is a total slut.
23:25:12 <ehird> pikhq: you did WHAT with that chicken?
23:25:34 <pikhq> That it is bending down to fellate ais523 right now doesn't change that it will do anything for anyone.
23:25:58 <ais523> ehird: I can't see any legitimate interpretation of your reading at all
23:26:05 <ais523> nothing there suggests that the two are the same thing
23:26:19 <ais523> "here are our logs; here are some other logs"
23:26:36 <ehird> BECAUSE CLOG IS A BOT AND NOTHING ELSE!
23:26:53 <ehird> it does not make sense to provide a virtual directory of clog unless it's the logs logged by that bot
23:27:08 <ais523> it does not say "virtual directory of clog"
23:27:15 <ais523> it says "virtual clog apache directories"
23:27:36 <ehird> yes, and because I know what a virtual directory in apache is, I can reword it in a valid way to try and make it clearer to you
23:27:49 <ehird> how else do you want me to try and tell you you're wrong? repeating the sentence verbatim over and over?
23:29:17 <ais523> we can't check who was right until we find the content on the site, and/or ask the maintainers
23:29:31 <ais523> anyway, there's a far more pressing issue here: given that ircbrowse.com is down, who on earth is cmeme logging for?
23:30:11 <ehird> pikhq: please tell me i'm not hallucinating and that ais523's interpretation IS crazy
23:30:34 <ais523> ehird: logging for /dev/null would be ridiculous, nobody would waste server resources on that
23:30:35 <pikhq> ais523: I'm not sure what the hell the point of this is.
23:30:44 <ais523> well, there was that process on normish which pinged yahoo for an entire month
23:30:46 <ais523> but that was a mistake
23:30:54 <ehird> ais523: it's down due to the server being unmaintained, duh
23:30:59 <ehird> the old meme redirects to ircbrowse
23:31:03 <ehird> and the guy's blog was last updated in '07
23:31:08 <ehird> ais523: tunes.org is also unmaintained
23:31:14 <ehird> faré just breaks the server every now and then
23:31:20 <ehird> if clog has a bug and breaks, it would not be fixed
23:31:39 <ehird> because the original coder doesn't maintain it any more.
23:39:59 <pikhq> http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/ The mind boggles.
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23:44:38 <ehird> see, my user-mode posix would do that
23:44:41 <ais523> ehird: a bug causing breakage seems unlikely
23:44:41 <ehird> due to being ported to every OS ever
23:44:43 <ehird> including the apple ii
23:44:57 <ehird> [23:44] ais523: ehird: a bug causing breakage seems unlikely ← I'm hanging this up on the wall
23:44:57 <ais523> it would more likely be a sysadmin problem, like out of disk space or overflowing log files
23:45:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
23:45:10 -!- ehird has joined.
23:45:13 <pikhq> Usermode POSIX would be pretty sweet.
23:45:43 <ehird> ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix sh
23:45:49 <ehird> For those days when you want to take it slow.
23:45:55 <ais523> ehird: I mean, clog's been going so long that it seems much more likely that it would break for config reasons than for code reasons
23:46:16 <ehird> ais523: Yes, I was just pointing out that leaving a server doing shit unmaintainedly is not unheard of.
23:46:40 <pikhq> ehird: I assume that it would be designed like Linux from Scratch, to show itself as a single process and do all task-switching itself?
23:46:50 <ehird> pikhq: yes, for portability
23:47:08 <ehird> pikhq: does POSIX mandate elf?
23:47:16 <ais523> write it in perfectly portable C, if you can
23:47:30 <pikhq> ELF is a seperate standard.
23:47:34 <FireFly> http://216.14.122.182/images/28259tmp9.png <--
23:47:38 <ehird> ais523: no such thing
23:47:52 <ehird> THAT IS NOT IRONIC IT IS CRINGEWORTHY.
23:48:05 <ehird> Anyway, plug computers are fucking awesome.
23:48:06 <ais523> ehird: you can get pretty portable
23:48:09 <ehird> But I assume you meant the toolbar :P
23:48:13 <ais523> especially with autoconf
23:48:24 <ais523> failing that, write in perfect theoretically portable C89
23:48:26 <ehird> I'm never using autoconf, ever
23:48:30 <ehird> I want to run this on an apple ii man
23:48:34 <FireFly> And yeah, I'm thinking of getting a sheevaplug
23:48:48 <ehird> Everything, pretty much.
23:48:49 <pikhq> ehird: Then you are in for a world of pain.
23:48:49 <ais523> if C-INTERCAL doesn't run on a C64, I consider that a bug, although a low-priority one
23:49:01 <ehird> pikhq: Call me when autoconf supports the ↑↑↑
23:49:02 <pikhq> Portability is a royal bitch.
23:49:09 <pikhq> Autoconf is merely a *lesser* bitch.
23:49:13 <ehird> pikhq: I'm basically going to abstract all the low-level stuff.
23:49:18 <ehird> It won't use the host filesystem or anything
23:49:22 <pikhq> The C64? Only with cross-compiling, but sure.
23:49:36 <ehird> It'll require writing tons of code for every platform anyway
23:49:47 <ehird> and I'm never going to use auto*, ever, so don't even bother
23:49:49 <pikhq> The iPhone? Sure; just install Terminal.app on it.
23:50:04 <pikhq> Okay, that's a royal assload of pain right there, ehird.
23:50:20 <ais523> isn't it against apple's terms of service to put an open-source program onto the iphone?
23:50:35 <ehird> [23:49] pikhq: The iPhone? Sure; just install Terminal.app on it.
23:50:35 <ehird> ↑ please stop talking
23:50:38 <ehird> you have no idea what you're talking about
23:50:42 <ehird> terminal.app from os x will not run on the iphone
23:51:08 <ais523> oh, I bet there's some way, but it probably involves a lot of jailbreaking and hackery and is harder than just reimplementing
23:51:15 <ais523> also, possibly, porting os x to os x
23:51:18 <ehird> it doesn't have the libraries
23:51:22 <ehird> it's a different architecture
23:51:28 <ais523> it would be a lot of work
23:51:34 <ehird> god just shut the fuck up
23:51:36 <ehird> ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
23:51:38 <ais523> which is why I made the comment about porting os x to itself
23:51:38 <ehird> JUST EDIT THE UNIVERSE
23:51:44 <ehird> TWIDDLE WITH THE LAWS OF PHYSICS A BIT
23:51:50 <ehird> it's along the same lines as
23:51:54 <ehird> HURR NO LANGUAGE IS BETTER THAN ANOTHERW
23:51:57 <ehird> BECAUSE TURING!!!!!
23:52:09 <ehird> and i wish people would stop making such trivial, insipid, useless arguments based on suc hthings
23:52:20 <ais523> ok, but you can at least expect people to be slightly pedantic here
23:52:23 <ais523> after all, this is #esoteric
23:52:36 <pikhq> ehird: There is *a* Terminal.app for the iPhone.
23:52:45 <pikhq> It involves a lot of jailbreaking and hackery.
23:52:45 <ais523> is it called Terminal.app?
23:52:50 <ehird> pikhq: Genericword.app means the OS X version.
23:52:55 <ehird> Mail.app, Terminal.app, etc.
23:52:56 <FireFly> You're currently breaking the Golden Rule of the Topic™
23:53:00 <ehird> Mobile*.app means a default iPhone app.
23:53:03 <ehird> MobileSafari.app, etc.
23:53:10 <ais523> FireFly: a rule forcing offtopicness is stupid
23:53:14 <pikhq> It ain't a default, it's a hack.
23:53:17 <ehird> ais523: you're stupid. :P
23:53:23 <pikhq> Someone else wrote it and called it Terminal.app.
23:53:25 <ehird> pikhq: You're not reading what I said.
23:53:28 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only change one word at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
23:53:33 <ehird> There is something called Terminal.app.
23:53:41 <ehird> "Terminal.app" is not a valid way to refer to it in general.
23:53:41 <pikhq> ehird: ITS NOT MY FAULT, SOMEONE ELSE NAMED IT THAT.
23:53:48 <ehird> Because that means /Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app.
23:54:09 <pikhq> THERE IS A NAMESPACE COLLISION HERE, NOT A MISUNDERSTANDING, YOU DUMBTARD.
23:54:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:54:19 -!- ehird has changed nick to dear_my_inner_ra.
23:54:44 <ais523> ehird: it's easy enough to just use your usual nick
23:55:09 <dear_my_inner_ra> ais523: It's easy enough to say "an iPhone terminal app" instead of Terminal.app because the latter is used to mean the OS X default terminal, too.
23:55:21 <dear_my_inner_ra> But apparently pikhq is bound to referring things only in the ways that their creators do.
23:55:27 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:55:31 <ais523> so, how do you refer to the Plan 9 version of vi
23:55:39 <ais523> given that the name is already taken?
23:55:40 <pikhq> I am not sure of your point, and can only conclude that you like to be an idiot.
23:55:59 <ais523> I've just had a stupid idea
23:56:00 <dear_my_inner_ra> pikhq: I'm sorry, next time I'll use diagrams instead of English.
23:56:05 <ais523> porting programs to other man chapters
23:56:13 <ais523> e.g. we already have vim(1) as an editor
23:56:18 <pikhq> dear_my_inner_ra: You're a retard.
23:56:32 <ais523> we could have vim(8) designed to edit root-owned files
23:56:37 <ais523> and vim(6) which wasn't entirely serious
23:56:43 <ais523> and vim(2) the system call
23:56:52 <pikhq> And vim(n) the Tcl function.
23:57:05 * ais523 wonders if vim(3perl) already exists
23:57:34 <dear_my_inner_ra> tcl and perl's manpage pollution is almost enough to get me to uninstall them
23:57:41 <dear_my_inner_ra> alas you can't really do that with perl unless you're an über-minimalist
23:58:05 <ais523> hmm... quite a lot of vim-related modules on CPAN, but none are ports of vim
23:58:29 <ais523> ehird: they're accessible via the perldoc command too
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23:58:41 <ais523> there's probably some way to move it so perldoc accesses them and not vim
23:58:47 <ais523> also, git is just as bad in terms of manpage pollution
23:59:24 <ais523> perl only pollutes perl*
23:59:39 <ais523> it's cpan that pollutes *::*
23:59:59 <dear_my_inner_ra> i don't care about your separation of perl and state^Wcpan, because nobody else does