00:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, my view of the Edinburgh fireworks was completely spoilt by a church in the way.
00:07:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I shall have to consult with the local branch of Al Qaeda. to have it removed.
00:08:22 <oerjan> al qaeda demolition services
00:08:39 <elliott> NODE TO MI5: Phantom_Hoover JUST TOLD ME HE REALLY INTENDS TO DO THIS
00:08:42 <elliott> PLEASE MONITOR THIS COMMUNICATION
00:08:51 <elliott> TERRORIST CHILD PORNOGRAPHY BOMB BOMB 9/11 AMERICAN BASTARDS CAPITALISM
00:09:25 <Phantom_Hoover> NOTE TO MI5: ELLIOTT IS A MENTAL PATIENT AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED
00:09:46 <oerjan> terrorist child pornography bombs are all the rage
00:20:44 <Gregor> NOTE TO MI5: HEY GUYS, I'M IN THE US
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00:25:46 <nooga> i just spoke with thomas from trontheim via phone
00:25:54 <nooga> and he's sooooo drunk
00:26:18 <nooga> shut up oerjan, i know
00:30:37 <fizzie> ▜▘ ▄ ▄ ▌▗ ▄ ▗▘▛▖▗ ▖▖▐ ▚ ▗▖▗▖▖▖▝ ▄ ▟▖ ▗▖▗ ▖▖ ▟▖▌ ▝ ▗▖
00:30:37 <fizzie> ▐ ▛▌▄▌▞▌▛▘ ▄▌ ▐ ▛ ▛▘▛ ▐ ▐ ▘▖▌ ▛ ▐ ▙▘▐ ▙ ▌▌▛ ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖
00:30:37 <fizzie> ▀▘ ▘▘▀▘▝▘▝▘ ▀▘ ▘▘ ▝▘▘ ▘▘ ▀ ▝▘▘ ▝ ▌ ▘ ▘ ▝ ▘ ▘▘▘▝ ▀ ▝
00:30:46 <elliott> int main(int ac, char **av)
00:30:49 <elliott> #define uint8_t a[printf("hello world\n")]
00:30:57 <elliott> that is the most beautiful thing ever
00:31:36 <fizzie> "I made a (Perl) script for this." It's readable even in the logs if you just manually swomp your browser into an UTF-8 frenzy.
00:32:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That C program?
00:32:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The line in stdint.h looks like "typedef unsigned char uint8_t;".
00:33:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Of course, depending on this is LOL NO, especially as .hs don't even have to be written in C technically.
00:33:19 <elliott> fizzie: I think some of my chars are non-monospaced.
00:33:33 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that's a shamey.
00:33:50 <fizzie> I guess the space might not be spaced like the Unicode block-drawing ones, but that's just weird.
00:34:06 <fizzie> I don't think there is a specific "block-drawing space".
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00:49:46 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qbG0zi9ZeE (don't watch this :P)
00:52:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> #define uint8_t a[printf("hello world\n")] <--- ....... wow
00:52:29 <elliott> Gregor: wow you look different
00:52:45 <Gregor> Ten years does a lot to a man :P
00:52:55 <Gregor> Esp. when they're the years of 14-24
00:52:56 <elliott> Gregor: yeah like make him not suck at making music OH SNAP
00:53:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that depends a LOT on what exactly stdint.h does on that given system
00:53:03 <elliott> Gregor: ok question why are you dressed all normally and shit
00:53:08 <elliott> Gregor: where is the pink man
00:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, exactly how it is implemented
00:53:12 <Gregor> elliott: Ten years does a lot to a man :P
00:53:21 <elliott> Gregor: I THOUGHT YOU WERE GREGOR FROM THE MOMENT YOU WERE BORN
00:53:51 <elliott> good thing i'm 15, i can totally preempt all my 24-year-old-self's objections to current me and reverse them, I'VE GOT IT ALL FIGURED OUT (<-- note: same words that probably went through Gregor's head at the time :P)
00:54:12 <Gregor> I have no objections to 14-yr-old me :P
00:54:31 <Gregor> He just happens to be a different person is all.
00:54:58 <elliott> Gregor: EXCUSE ME, he is NOT wearing ANY pink at ALL?
00:55:15 <Gregor> Like I said, different person.
00:55:30 <Gregor> YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON
00:55:35 <elliott> Gregor: Man, I just realised that talking to you instantly turns me into T-Rex.
00:55:43 <elliott> I think that is because you are T-Rex.
00:56:39 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qbG0zi9ZeE (don't watch this :P) <-- quite nice
00:56:51 <Vorpal> though you developed a lot since then
00:57:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, where was that?
00:57:44 <Gregor> Vorpal: I have noooooooooo idea :P
00:57:49 <Vorpal> (and seems you already liked to compose music that takes some effort to listen to)
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00:59:20 <nooga> elliott: you were right
00:59:30 <nooga> i'm drunk as f*******\
00:59:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, how comes you didn't become a professional composer instead?
00:59:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because I'm a far better computer scientist.
01:00:05 <nooga> i think Gregor does not make the best music
01:00:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, then you must be really good at that!
01:00:29 <nooga> btw Pink Floyd did
01:00:39 <Vorpal> nooga, you don't like classical I guess?
01:01:00 <nooga> i like almost every kind of music
01:01:08 <Vorpal> hm, true I would not say Gregor's work is classical
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01:01:32 <Gregor> Apparently I time travel.
01:01:37 <nooga> brb, have to walk to the gas station to buy cigs
01:01:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, neo-classical in /style/
01:02:02 <Gregor> I prefer "neo-romantic"
01:02:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, I think defining it by when it was made is silly
01:02:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, why: because it breaks down for that is often called "baroque music" (which is really not a single style)
01:03:17 <Vorpal> also you get neo- a lot
01:03:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway your music is not really romantic
01:04:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, too much dissonance for it. Maaaybe neo-"late romantic"
01:04:36 <nooga> oerjan: still here
01:06:24 <nooga> at greg, i play electric guitar alot
01:06:39 <nooga> and i can't play any. whole song
01:07:10 <nooga> i just improvise in major and minor penatatonic scales
01:07:37 <nooga> and septimal* eee i don't know if * this is good word in english
01:07:49 <nooga> but my gr is playing piano as well
01:08:19 <nooga> oerjan: ignore me, wait 30*60 s
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01:15:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, ... lunch or just some snaks?
01:15:23 <elliott> Vorpal: you know that oerjan operates on a 25-hour schedule
01:15:31 <elliott> (*according to Yudkowsky canon)
01:15:34 <oerjan> i haven't eaten a proper meal for nearly six hours
01:15:43 <elliott> well, not so much 25-hour schedule
01:15:49 <elliott> as oerjan's body is convinced that days last 25 hours
01:15:53 <oerjan> did have some snacks though
01:15:55 <elliott> and, accordingly, sleeps at the same time every 25-hour day
01:16:07 <oerjan> elliott: my doctor thinks melatonin may be a good idea
01:16:07 <elliott> i.e. one hour forwards in the blatantly incorrect 24-hour day system
01:16:30 <Vorpal> elliott, my body thinks it is 25.5 hours, but I keep ending up resetting it all the time
01:16:43 <Vorpal> well mostly all the time
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01:17:20 <elliott> oerjan: according to the highly reliable internets, btw, 1.5 mg is a good dose and lasts about an hour to kick in
01:17:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: well something is wrong with my resetting
01:17:35 <elliott> most sites selling it i've seen recommend rather higher dosages
01:17:39 <elliott> i rather suspect a doctor might too
01:17:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, mine is failing atm, due to holidays
01:17:43 <elliott> thanks pharma companies *tinfoil hat* :)
01:17:58 <Vorpal> elliott, melatonin, what does that do now again
01:18:48 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't there something similar-named that had something to do with getting brown when being in the sun?
01:19:29 <elliott> But I've forgotten what it is :-P
01:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, check the various boxes below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin#External_links
01:20:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah thanks
01:21:01 <elliott> Melatonin is in TiHKAL? X-D
01:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the boxes below that
01:21:57 <elliott> Vorpal: TiHKAL is actually the second-last box, anyway.
01:22:10 <elliott> http://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=tk&id=35 Anyone wanna try the recipe? :-P
01:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what is tihkal?
01:22:27 <oerjan> i wonder if i'll end up buying it from the internet, it's rather expensive says my doctor and a bit of googling seems to imply it isn't covered by the norwegian medical expenses cap
01:23:00 <elliott> Vorpal: tryptamines i have known and loved, sequel to PiHKAL. drug stuff.
01:23:23 <elliott> oerjan: he's full of shit -- it's incredibly cheap on the interwebs at least
01:23:26 <elliott> and that's from reputable sites
01:24:17 <oerjan> elliott: well i assume this is from a norwegian pharmacy, and moreover she may be referring to the fact it's not subsidized
01:24:33 <elliott> oerjan: right. i assume you guys have "herbal stores" and the likes there?
01:24:39 <elliott> sell tons of supplements and crap
01:24:52 <elliott> oerjan: you can either find it in those or the internet equivalents of those, for $nothing
01:25:07 <elliott> failing even /that/ (which I doubt) you could import it from http://melatonin.com/ i guess, but the shipping is going to be non-zero
01:26:09 <oerjan> elliott: yes, there are herbal stores, including some pharmacies (i noticed one the other day advertising homeopathic remedies)
01:26:43 <elliott> oerjan: yeah. there's no real point in getting it from a pharmacy if it's considered a health supplement, not a drug, which it is just about everywhere
01:26:47 <oerjan> otoh if melatonin is registered as a medical drug then it is unlikely to be legal for non-pharmacies to sell it here
01:27:00 <elliott> oerjan: I doubt it is -- Wikipedia says it is in the UK and it's _not_
01:27:09 <elliott> you can find it on tons of (reputable enough) herbal online stores
01:27:18 <oerjan> (only a few very common drugs are allowed to sell in ordinary shops)
01:27:34 <elliott> oerjan: well it's likely not considered a drug.
01:27:40 <oerjan> (and even that is a relatively new change)
01:27:47 <elliott> e.g. in america it's a "dietary supplement".
01:30:40 <elliott> oerjan: can you make oklopol come back??
01:30:47 <elliott> i want to tell him that Phantom_Hoover totally got his 2d physics working
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01:31:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well get the other parts working
01:31:17 <elliott> oerjan: yes do it. actually do you have his phone number. just call him and yell at him.
01:31:20 <elliott> act drunk (or get drunk first)
01:31:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: LOCALISED PHYSICS DISTORTIONS
01:31:38 <elliott> oerjan: say #ESOTERIC AND ABANDON AND
01:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, that could slot nicely into my existing classes for masses.
01:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Make angular-mass a subclass of point-mass, add some extra stuff.
01:32:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Bear in mind that Amber doesn't have any classes, though :-P
01:32:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why not add an angular-stuff field to point-mass, that can be NULL?
01:32:53 <elliott> (Substitute appropriate nothing-value for NULL.)
01:32:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or how about making all point-masses angular-masses?
01:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, because I'd like to be able to make bullets point-masses.
01:33:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm tempted to say that bullets should bypass physics altogether and just have their movement hardcoded.
01:33:47 <elliott> Since there could be thousands of them at any one time.
01:34:33 <nooga> i have cigs and beer
01:35:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you got polygon collision yet?
01:36:09 * oerjan does not have oklopol's phone number
01:36:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, use your mathematician powers to calculate it!
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01:36:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do polygon collision :P
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01:37:43 <oerjan> googling suggests that melatonin requires a prescription in norway
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01:44:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, so ask the doctor then?
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01:46:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: if you ever want to see Asteroids II out you better code polygon collision >:)
01:46:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes I mean ask again if you need a prescription
01:46:35 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you do it?
01:46:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tomorrow then!
01:46:52 <elliott> i already have to write a compiler for this
01:48:22 <oerjan> it seems like melatonin is falling a bit between the cracks in norway, simply by not being properly registered there. you can get it but it's more complicated and unsubsidized.
01:48:42 <elliott> oerjan: just import it from the us >:)
01:49:37 <Vorpal> elliott, see note about prescription. I doubt importing it is legal then
01:49:56 <elliott> oerjan: Hear that? The police are gonna get you for drug smuggling.
01:50:01 <elliott> "...found with whole GRAMS of melatonin..."
01:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you always exaggerate everything
01:51:16 <oerjan> i guess it's unregistered because it's natural and therefore unpatentable...
01:51:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying to demonstrate that importing melatonin being illegal is completely irrelevant as no non-ridiculous response could be taken.
01:51:43 <elliott> Also, they'd be incriminating oerjan for importing something harmless that's ALREADY INSIDE HIS BODY.
01:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, by that logic DMT should be okay everywhere, since the human body naturally have traces of DMT
01:52:27 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect if i got a prescription first i could legally import it
01:52:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I see no issue with that statement
01:52:37 <oerjan> well that would be sane, at least
01:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. But that is not the case
01:53:17 <elliott> Admittedly, importing poop would be kind of weird :P
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01:53:28 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but you can't get high off melatonin :P
01:55:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well why is it in that tihkal then?
01:55:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Who knows? The entry just talks about it being unclear whether it's effective for sleep or not, going by WP's link.
01:56:05 <elliott> It's not solely a book to get high off, unless I'm sorely mistaken :P
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01:57:08 <elliott> I mean, melatonin is a tryptamine with interesting properties, thus explaining its presence.
01:57:48 <coppro> but does it involve lipase amylase and trypsin?
01:57:58 <coppro> they gonna help with my digestion
01:59:43 <quintopia> what about insulin, glucagon, coming from the islets of langerhans?
02:00:42 <coppro> elliott: give me root ssh
02:00:57 <elliott> i think the mmap might be failing or something
02:10:20 <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/etw3g/problem_boole_comparisons_in_php/c1awit4
02:10:53 <augur> it depends on what the other things are!
02:11:09 <elliott> augur: I have a better table
02:11:12 <elliott> augur: I will express it in html
02:11:37 <augur> yes i know im just being a dick
02:11:58 <elliott> augur: <table><tr><th>x</th><th>y</th></tr><tr><th>x</th><td>True</td><td>False</td></tr><tr><th>y</th><td>False</td><td>True</td></tr></table>
02:12:03 <augur> the important point tho is the conversation with kamatsu
02:12:13 <elliott> augur: tada, a perfect description of a (properly-implemented) equality function in Haskell!
02:12:17 <elliott> assuming all Eq classes are done right that is
02:12:31 <elliott> but only if x is indistinguishable from y /outside/ the module
02:12:36 <elliott> so it's x == x from outside
02:13:00 <augur> the convo with kamatsu is the important bit
02:13:26 <elliott> augur: meh, mere misunderstanding :P
02:13:43 <augur> he originally said it compared forall a. (Eq a) => a
02:13:46 <augur> which is also false
02:14:07 <augur> the point is that (==) only compares two things of the same type
02:14:25 <augur> and he said it could compare bool to string if you wanted
02:14:36 <augur> which is false, without some major magic
02:15:04 <augur> but god damn if that little ascii table didnt get me some karma
02:17:16 <augur> one thing i fucking love about haskell is (G)ADTs
02:17:28 <augur> i love that i can define new atomic values out of nothing
02:17:39 <augur> and theres no possibility of misusing them as some other type
02:18:16 <augur> enums are nice and all, but the fact that they're usually just another name for an int is a problem
02:18:54 <augur> i mean, obviously you could do atomic values as ints and shit, but the type system enforces the opacity
02:18:56 <coppro> and OO languages typically add too much baggage to ADTs
02:19:25 <augur> i mean, i like OO for some reasons, but GADTs and type classes are sexy
02:20:14 <augur> OO style for certain things is quite appealing.
02:20:35 <augur> list functions, for instance
02:21:29 <augur> i much prefer xs { |x| x.odd? }.map { |x| x ** 2 } over map (**2) (filter odd xs)
02:21:43 <augur> er.. xs.filter { ...
02:22:10 <augur> tho i'd prefer if i could do xs.filter(odd?).map(**2)
02:22:15 <elliott> augur: that's just concatenative :)
02:22:38 <augur> elliott: no, i know, i just like the style of having Collection Method PRoc
02:22:44 <augur> rather than Method Proc Collection
02:22:58 <elliott> augur: true. currying gets ugly though.
02:23:07 <elliott> admittedly you can say .filter(odd?) in a platonically perfect language
02:23:08 <augur> i think in haskell theres a reverse apply isnt there?
02:23:12 <augur> like $ but backwards?
02:23:19 <elliott> but yeah, i think there is
02:23:25 <augur> yeah yeah but i think theres a built in flip ($)
02:23:44 <augur> and lets say its left associative
02:23:49 <augur> obviously: xs $$ filter odd $$ map (**2)
02:24:05 <augur> so haskell doesnt make this style impossible
02:24:18 <augur> which is all the more reason to fuckin love haskell
02:24:20 <elliott> augur: nothing built in, maybe in a module
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02:24:25 <elliott> augur: haskell's type system is bad :)
02:24:29 <augur> elliott: whatever. its easily definable, anyway
02:25:10 <coppro> elliott: you can probably do .filter(odd?).map(**2) in APL, except it would be 5 characters long
02:25:34 <coppro> also, i think Perl 6 actually does allow .filter(odd?).map({* ** 2})
02:25:36 <elliott> coppro: i can probably do that in J
02:25:37 <augur> coppro: probably 6
02:25:42 <elliott> coppro: don't need that {} do you?
02:25:43 <coppro> if it doesn't, it certainly ought to
02:25:47 <augur> elliott: restriction in what fashion?
02:25:59 <coppro> elliott: I'm not up-to-date in Perl 6
02:26:00 <elliott> (a middle-ground is probably nicest for actual programming)
02:26:03 <elliott> augur: then i can't explain sry
02:26:05 <augur> its dependently typed tho isnt it?
02:26:19 <elliott> there's more than that though
02:26:30 <augur> any type system that isnt itself a turing complete programming language is too restricted to you, isnt it?
02:26:39 <elliott> augur: um Coq's type system is sub-TC
02:26:51 <augur> but i thought dependent types are TC
02:26:54 <elliott> augur: yes, otherwise _|_ would prove any proposition
02:27:02 <augur> or is it only _some_ DT systems
02:27:18 <elliott> augur: well with dependent types your type system basically becomes a special part of your value system
02:27:24 <elliott> so if you use your TC language to do it, yes, it becomes TC
02:27:31 <elliott> and you have nonterminating _types_, ho ho, good luck wit hthat
02:27:41 <elliott> Agda is also sub-TC unless you tell it not to be, when it becoems inconsistent
02:27:46 <augur> ive never gotten into the traditional theorem provers
02:27:59 <elliott> coq is really nice. you'd like it
02:28:20 <augur> i say it like caulk, so
02:28:35 <augur> or like the kidlings on the chans say cock: cawk
02:29:47 <elliott> coppro: well map **2 is just foo^2
02:30:14 <augur> lets see, surely we can figure this apl shit out
02:30:22 <elliott> dunno how to filter odd though :)
02:30:46 <augur> no, but thats not the point
02:31:28 <elliott> but that's not the best way to filter by odd.
02:31:49 <elliott> oh wait foo^2 isn't actually map(^2)
02:31:50 <augur> so i get that 2|n is two divides n
02:31:55 <augur> but that should be boolean
02:32:08 <elliott> 0< is exactly what you'd expect
02:32:21 <augur> that makes sense then
02:32:33 <elliott> it's actually called "residue" :)
02:32:35 <augur> does j have lambdas without lambda operators?
02:32:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the difference between J and line noise?
02:32:41 <elliott> augur: it has no lambda operator. so yes.
02:32:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Line noise is readable
02:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't there some language that looked like line noise and you said was crazy
02:33:15 <augur> elliott: so does 2|n roughly equal \n -> 2 | n in some other language?
02:33:21 <coppro> elliott: is it actually foo^2, or do you need to do some fancy foo<<^2?
02:33:38 <elliott> coppro: we want map ^2 right?
02:33:41 <elliott> coppro: then it's foo^2 in j.
02:33:42 <augur> right but is it a lambda or is it a value?
02:33:56 <elliott> coppro: who cares, we're doing j now
02:33:59 <coppro> it has some syntax for turning a scalar operation into a vector one
02:34:04 <Vorpal> elliott, sure about the spelling? google is unhelpful
02:34:05 <elliott> augur: um is "n mod 2" a lambda? :)
02:34:15 <augur> cause in Functional JS you can do shit like xs.map("x*2") and itll convert "x*2" into the lambda \x -> x*2
02:34:15 <coppro> elliott: will find example
02:34:24 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ursala+language&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=i5IeTeb1EpO6hAf074i3Dg#hl=en&client=safari&pwst=1&rls=en&sa=X&ei=i5IeTaaIGIyIhQfnvIS3Dg&ved=0CBUQvgUoAA&q=ursala+language&nfpr=1&fp=733b49addeb556
02:34:32 <augur> because x is a variable that isnt bound
02:34:33 <elliott> augur: you have to realise that in J there are no "lambdas"
02:34:43 <elliott> augur: if you give an "incomplete" expression, it just becomes a box
02:34:45 <augur> ok so there are no such things at all
02:34:48 <elliott> and you can apply boxes to things
02:34:52 <elliott> augur: there are, it just usurps them all :)
02:34:55 <augur> i dontknow shit about j, really
02:34:58 <elliott> e.g., wait, lemme download j to demonstrate
02:35:15 <Vorpal> elliott, where in there? "Ursula Bellugi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" first hit, Lots of non-programming hits
02:35:17 <elliott> oh oh OH THERE IS A J BETA OUT OMG
02:35:26 <elliott> Vorpal: tell it you don't mean urusula.
02:35:50 <augur> aint nothin but a j thang
02:35:59 <elliott> [[701 J Engine (JE - J Language implementation) changes are incremental and compatible.
02:35:59 <elliott> 701 J Front End (JFE) changes are revolutionary!
02:35:59 <elliott> Previously the primary JFE was based on Jsoftware's proprietary WD (window driver). WD was built on Windows API and was refined and polished over more than 15 years. And for 10 years Unix users had a WD Java port.
02:36:00 <elliott> 701 abandons WD. There is risk as WD was a mature product central in so many ways to J. The replacements are as far from polished as only software version 1 can be.
02:36:02 <elliott> With your patience and contributions we believe the rough will soon be polished and WD will be just a fond memory. One significant difference is that WD was a closed and proprietary system implemented in C++ and Java. The new JFE's are open and are implemented in J and based on open products and industry standards.
02:36:08 <elliott> this beta is my new girlfriend
02:36:11 <augur> elliott: why does ursala look like line noise?
02:36:16 <augur> elliott? girlfriend? hahaha
02:36:19 <elliott> augur: ursala is terrible, do not discuss it
02:36:24 <elliott> also stop laughing :| J LOVES ME
02:36:31 <elliott> The first is JHS (J HTTP Server) where a browser is the front end. The browser is a powerful front end that has considerable advantages. Almost by definition it is familiar to all users and is the most completely cross platform. With html, css, ajax, and javascript it is a rich environment. It would be a mistake to continue to ignore the focus of resources and users on the browser as the window on the world. J701 lets your browser be
02:36:31 <elliott> your window on J, as well as on everything else.
02:36:31 <elliott> The second is JGTK which is based on the GTK+ portable library for creating graphical user interfaces. This is on the bleeding edge of what is possible and will allow the ultimate in power user tools and applications.
02:36:36 <augur> elliott: no, it was the "girl" part
02:36:49 <elliott> augur: i'm not gay. sorry. :p
02:37:06 <augur> i know you're not. if you were it wouldnt be fun to joke about
02:37:32 <augur> oh jesus you're right about ursala
02:37:39 <augur> choices = ^(iota@r,~&l); leql@a^& ~&al?\&! ~&arh2fabt2RDfalrtPXPRT
02:37:48 <elliott> augur: it's crazily-designed, too
02:37:56 <Vorpal> augur, to me, it only looks slightly more noisy than J code :P
02:38:10 <elliott> augur: i know you're not. if you were it wouldnt be fun to joke about
02:38:10 <augur> thats why elliott hates it
02:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: no he sobered up in 30 minutes
02:38:40 <Vorpal> elliott, ... body doesn't work like that
02:38:41 <augur> but parody my own sexuality so
02:39:02 <elliott> i think nooga's gf just told him she's a lesbian
02:39:13 <augur> elliott: wouldnt he be masturbating then?
02:39:25 <elliott> this channel, SO MATURE, you guys!
02:39:46 <nooga> she told me that she's more kinki tht i thought she is
02:39:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes when augur, you, and some 90% of the other people are here :P
02:39:56 <nooga> elliott is SO MATURE
02:40:14 <elliott> GUYS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT *MY* GIRLFRIEND, THAT IS, J
02:40:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, me, olsner, fizzie. And perhaps a handful of other. Then it is mature :P
02:40:25 <elliott> olsner: hear that, Vorpal just called you mature
02:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, compared to you :P
02:40:48 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ /Applications/j701/bin/jgtk.command ; exit;
02:40:49 <elliott> |[-7] /Applications/j701/addons/gui/gtk/gtk.ijs
02:40:51 <coppro> elliott: In Perl 6, @foo[bar] is syntactic sugar for @foo.[bar]
02:41:00 <elliott> coppro: you're syntactic sugar lol
02:41:07 <nooga> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air ... what a hostname
02:41:12 <elliott> nooga: that's the default hostname :D
02:41:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that error is... weird?
02:41:26 <augur> elliott: ive started coding in C#
02:41:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it has way too much whitespace for J
02:41:31 <elliott> nooga: i haven't figured out what to change it to yet, i kinda like Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air, it's just so silly
02:41:37 <elliott> my prompts have never been longer
02:41:41 <nooga> elliott: i know :D , my mac was Marcin gasperowicz's MacBook pro
02:41:57 <elliott> i am so glad i don't have a really long name
02:41:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I hate when prompts wrap though
02:42:08 <elliott> John-Jacob-Jingleheimer-Schmidts-MacBook-Air
02:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is a risk for you
02:42:23 <augur> elliott: better than Darryl-McAdamss-MacBook-Pro
02:42:39 <Vorpal> augur, is that a real example
02:42:47 <Vorpal> wtf my ? key is glitchy
02:42:49 <augur> well no, but it would be if it were stupid enough to use my full name
02:42:52 <elliott> augur: what happens if you're japanese, do you get a utf-8 hostname
02:42:58 <elliott> or does it replace it all with dashes
02:43:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it could punycode it?
02:43:17 <augur> dareru-makkuadamuzu-no-makkubukku-purou
02:43:31 <elliott> oh yeah that error, so important
02:43:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I SUGGEST punycode!
02:43:43 <augur> actually i am that stupid
02:43:47 <augur> darryl-mcadamss-macbook-pro:~ darryl$
02:43:54 <augur> i should fix this shit
02:44:06 <elliott> augur: set your hostname to "fag"
02:44:35 <Vorpal> I use mythical creatures. phoenix, dragon, pegasus and so on.
02:44:35 <elliott> ok i think j is almost working
02:44:42 <Vorpal> (also tux is grandfathered in)
02:44:51 <augur> tux is pretty mythical
02:45:10 <augur> doesnt make him not mythical
02:45:24 <augur> it just makes him ... THE STUFF OF LEGENDS
02:45:35 <Vorpal> well you couldn't find tux on Middle earth :P
02:45:54 <augur> elliott: speaking of restrictive type systems, C#'s piss-poor type system pisses me off
02:46:04 <augur> i tried to define fold just for fun
02:46:06 <Vorpal> but you could find dragons, and while no phoenix or pegasus are recorded by Tolkin afaik they would fit right in,
02:46:33 <elliott> let's all get drunk and write PPC assembly
02:46:38 <Vorpal> augur, couldn't you do it with a generic class?
02:46:42 <elliott> GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY NOT
02:46:44 <augur> Vorpal: how do you mean
02:46:52 <augur> elliott: are you allowed to get drunk yet
02:46:56 <augur> have you ever BEEN drunk?
02:46:57 <Vorpal> augur, something like... Folder<T> or such?
02:47:05 <elliott> augur: no, but i'm also not allowed to INFRINGE COPYRIGHT
02:47:08 <Vorpal> augur, having one method. fold
02:47:18 <Vorpal> augur, yes this is insane. But it might just work.
02:47:19 <elliott> Vorpal: ITT: c# isn't java
02:47:31 <elliott> augur: can you tell me why steve jobs put fn next to ctrl on the macbook keyboards
02:47:31 <augur> Vorpal: ehh.. maybe. i didnt use a generic class
02:47:34 <elliott> augur: it is the stupidest thing ever
02:47:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? C# has generic classes.
02:47:42 <augur> but it was because of a circular type of some sort
02:47:43 <coppro> "It is an error to use this operator outside of a lol context; in other words it must be bound into a ** (slice) parameter rather than a * (slurpy) parameter." goddammit perl 6
02:47:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see why it *wouldn't* work
02:48:08 <coppro> it is impossible to understand perl 6 without understanding it first
02:48:12 <Vorpal> coppro, sure that isn't some INTERCAL-lolcode hybrid?
02:48:44 <elliott> Building, Bundling, and Integrating GTK+ on MacOSX is now consolidated at http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net, where you'll find up-to-date downloads, information and support. There is a forum, a mailing list, and a tracker there. The development of the quartz backend to GTK+ remains in the GTK+ project.
02:48:47 <elliott> http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ jesus christ
02:48:50 <elliott> it's like from fucking 2003
02:48:55 <elliott> they're using i think panther's wallpaper
02:49:13 <augur> Vorpal: the genericness wasnt at issue. i just defined it like.. public List<Object> FoldR { ... }
02:49:22 <augur> er, not List<Object>
02:49:26 <Vorpal> augur, so what is the problem then?
02:49:34 <augur> the problem was it didnt work! :P
02:49:39 <augur> lemme do it again for posterity
02:49:39 <Vorpal> augur, also is that a property!?
02:50:07 <augur> no its a stupid unthought-about method on a dummy object
02:50:11 <Vorpal> augur,: public List<T> FoldR(INSERT SOME SORT OF DELEGATE HERE, List<T> list) { ... }
02:50:24 <Vorpal> the delegate should take T somewhere
02:50:35 <augur> maybe. i just tried to implement it naively
02:50:37 <Vorpal> augur, delegate. Like function pointers for C#
02:50:49 <elliott> Vorpal: http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/ guess when this side was created
02:50:49 <augur> anyway it shouldve worked if the type system could handle it
02:51:00 <augur> i dont like the lack of polymorphism in the types tho.
02:51:03 <augur> you cant just do like
02:51:25 <elliott> based on its form + screenshots
02:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well it says 10.5 in the text. So fairly new. Screenshots don't help me, except that it has that 3D dock so fairly recent. Rest of design is like 8 year older
02:52:11 <augur> public X FoldR(..., Z zero, List<X> xs) { ... }
02:52:16 <augur> as far as i know, anyway
02:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: the site was created sometime 2009 to 2010.
02:52:21 <augur> maybe i should try that
02:52:23 <elliott> Vorpal: and it was /designed/ like that. in 2009 to 2010.
02:52:25 <Vorpal> augur, the ... would be the delegate
02:52:38 <elliott> Vorpal: did I mention that the site it replaced was pretty sleek?
02:52:49 <Vorpal> augur, shouldn't Z and X be the same?
02:53:07 <coppro> perl 6 does not have a sepc
02:53:09 <augur> i suppose it depends on how your folding function works
02:53:12 <coppro> I don't care what they say
02:53:17 <augur> theres no reason it couldnt be a -> b -> b
02:53:24 <elliott> coppro: it has a spec it has no formal spec
02:53:24 <coppro> I could not write an implementation of Perl 6 from this "spec"
02:53:37 <Vorpal> augur, but then FoldR should return Z not X
02:53:49 <augur> true. im not thinking, obviously
02:54:02 <augur> also, these backwards type signatures are weird
02:54:08 <augur> then theres these JS ones
02:54:17 <Vorpal> augur, you mean return type first?
02:54:25 <augur> function (x : X, y : Y) : Z
02:54:48 <Vorpal> augur, is that... name : type ?
02:54:54 <augur> i'd much prefer like
02:55:00 <Vorpal> augur, what the fracking helll
02:55:18 <augur> well it makes sense, since : is the mathlogic-notation for types
02:55:31 <augur> and you see that kind of shit in like Martin-Lof type theory
02:55:54 <augur> but its just so cluttersome
02:55:54 <elliott> Vorpal: not really. only the UI is 32-bit.
02:55:59 <elliott> it uses jni to talk to the engine
02:56:04 <Vorpal> augur, I don't know Martin-Löf type theory (isn't that the proper name?)
02:56:14 <augur> type foo(X,Y) : Z ; function foo(x,y) { ... }
02:56:20 <elliott> augur: coq is close to martin-lof type theory.
02:56:25 <augur> yeah, Martin-Lof is the formal logic behind dependent types
02:56:28 <elliott> augur: type foo(X,Y) : Z ; function foo(x,y) { ... }
02:56:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure that is an ö not an o
02:56:34 <elliott> that wouldn't work for dependent stuff really :)
02:56:37 <elliott> Vorpal: NOBODY FUCKING CARES
02:56:39 <augur> elliott: no its not supposed to
02:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott, at least write it as oe then
02:56:54 <augur> elliott: im just trying to show how you might design the JS2 type signatures to factor out the inlined :'s
02:57:00 <augur> to make it more haskellish
02:57:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I could start using either
02:57:20 <elliott> so the odd ones we want are the 1s here
02:57:23 <augur> function foo(x,y) { ... }
02:57:48 <Vorpal> Elliot, I could write it this way even.
02:59:15 <elliott> so we want to select the 1s here from foo
02:59:33 <elliott> but that would be cheating
02:59:35 <elliott> since we'd ditch all zeroes
03:03:45 <elliott> so we just need to ditch zeroes
03:11:05 <coppro> what are we trying to do here
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03:13:11 <elliott> coppro: um .filter(odd?).map(**2)
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03:33:05 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulliver's_Travels_(2010_film) WHYYYY
03:33:09 <elliott> augur: why does this exist
03:33:20 <augur> because jackblack.
03:53:35 <nooga> i just had a great conversation with my brother (language expert)
03:54:09 <nooga> he told me that no matter who you are
03:54:28 <nooga> you will adapt to the culture of a country you live in
03:54:38 <augur> unless you're a racist asshole
03:54:43 <augur> or a conquering brit
03:54:49 <augur> then you make them adopt to you
03:54:51 <nooga> but there is this think
03:55:29 <nooga> i'm a muthafucking pole
03:56:03 <nooga> and even if i speak perfect norsk and know norwegian culture in depth
03:56:39 <nooga> i can't forget 23 years (early years) in poland
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03:57:16 <nooga> and theese years will make me a different person from an average norwegian
03:57:40 <augur> nooga: i think you dont understand the meaning of "adapt"
03:57:51 <elliott> adapt means kill half of them rape the rest
03:57:57 <elliott> i learned this from columbus
03:58:15 <nooga> i could adapt urdu culture
03:58:33 <nooga> but that does not make me urdu
03:59:21 <nooga> one could just deny hid origin and become someone else
04:02:32 <nooga> even if i lived for 40 years in USA, and define myself as an american... i would stil bear this small part of
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04:04:04 <nooga> 23 years of Polish upbringing in myself
04:05:17 <nooga> besides of any patriotism
04:05:30 <nooga> which i don't have tbh
04:05:55 <nooga> ffffffffffffff....
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04:23:07 <elliott> help me make a golfing language
04:26:43 <elliott> augur: surely you know golfscript
04:27:08 <elliott> augur: http://golfscript.com/
04:27:52 <elliott> augur: um you know what code golf is right
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04:38:04 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ zcat <z.Z
04:38:04 <elliott> By submitting a solution to this challenge, I acknowledge that I am a bad person for trying to climb up the rankings in this way.Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$
04:38:04 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ zcat <<<"$(cat z.Z)"
04:38:05 <elliott> By submitting a solution to this challenge, I acknowledge that I am a bad person for trying to climb up the rankings in this way.(Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$
04:38:07 <elliott> HOW CAN THOSE RESULTS DIFFER
04:38:25 <elliott> aha! <<< appends a newline
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05:00:38 <TLUL> !^@(@(*~(&$$*@`^%@*%#(&(*#)@&)*($^*!^~^($@~^(
05:01:01 <TLUL> ((*@@#^)!%~)#@^*(~#%@#@~)&^(*$&^$~!@@((^(`%!&
05:01:22 <TLUL> &``(%@)%~^*!~#^HAPPY NEW YEARS(~#!(!#)#%@)`*^
05:01:45 <TLUL> %#!()!%*!*#~@!@$#`!)%`!@@!#`)#@%$&`%%^~%^@)$@
05:02:08 <TLUL> &^%`!&%^#$@)@`*$@)*@(~%`%!*&!@@@!*$~&&&)$@@%(
05:02:31 <TLUL> new years where I am
05:03:08 <TLUL> Yeah, that script didn't really work.
05:03:42 <TLUL> I coded it with 2 minutes to spare though, so it's not really a high quality piece of JS, is it?
05:03:48 <Sgeo> And what I thought was from TDWTF is actually from Planet Factor
05:03:49 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Factor!
05:04:11 <TLUL> Lol, it could definitely go on TDWFT
05:04:23 <TLUL> I used Chrome's dev tools to inject a script into webchat
05:06:31 <Sgeo> http://www.rfc1149.net/blog/2011/01/01/send-yourself-a-greetings-email-from-me/
05:07:16 <Sgeo> elliott, tbh, I saw "Blog post with code" in Google Reader, and made an assumption
05:07:51 <Sgeo> Although it started out that way, as almost a personal discussion about automated emails, as though Alex was about to present something related to that
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05:13:24 <elliott> augur: you should /nick augurer
05:16:31 <Sgeo> Sale on AW citizenship renewal
05:16:31 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:16:46 <elliott> man i was about to +1 shutup
05:16:50 <elliott> it was my genius all along
05:16:50 <Sgeo> shutup: Shut up about shutting up!
05:16:55 <elliott> i didn't look at the name :D
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05:48:04 <Sgeo> elliott, there is now a world in Active Worlds named after me
05:48:04 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:48:54 <elliott> Sgeo: Is it called SgeoNeverFuckingShutsUp?
05:50:26 <elliott> oh activeworlds is actually one word?
05:50:43 <Sgeo> elliott, I've seen it both ways
05:50:50 <Sgeo> I think Active Worlds is more correct
05:50:50 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:50:59 <elliott> Sgeo: their site says ActiveWorlds
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05:52:21 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
05:52:26 <shutup> Sgeo: Shut up about Active Worlds!
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05:54:02 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm Sacred Geometry!
05:54:12 <augur_> ping me when my alt dies so i can de_
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06:22:43 <variable> elliott, http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/SgJBNJ2ciJI/AAAAAAABAVQ/Mj9c7zh7YWY/s640/x1.jpg
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07:31:50 <darkbulb> is anyone else coherent at this late hour
07:33:01 <Sgeo> I'm never coherent, but I'm not especially incoherent right now
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07:37:05 <Sgeo> I think I scare people :(
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10:50:58 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsvbuwn_j_8&fmt=18
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13:48:25 <hagb4rd> it`s really quiet in here today.. even elliott is off *g
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16:28:49 <oerjan> OF COURSE NOT. YOU MERELY HAVE TO WEAR THESE LITTLE BADGES...
16:31:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
16:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, shutup has been silenced once more in oerjan's purge!
16:32:19 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: besides, i'd love to see if it were more flexible, they just confuse the issue is control. so stop sending me down this particular error message!
16:32:36 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: from: rl date: fri, 31 jul 1992 05:18:17 edt subject: re: bent axel's what to do
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17:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Let it now be known that Hoover Heavy Industries is now at war with the brutal substratist autocracy of oerjan.
17:49:51 <oerjan> IT SEEMS THE BADGES HAVE BEEN INSUFFICIENT, THEN
17:50:04 <oerjan> WE SHALL HAVE TO IMPLEMENT A MORE _FINAL_ SOLUTION
17:50:59 <elliott> Coding up shutup_oerjan.rb as we speak
17:51:10 <elliott> WHILE YOU STILL HAVE YOUR LIFE
17:52:41 <hagb4rd> what the heck are you talking about
17:53:05 <hagb4rd> i love it, but dont understand anything :)
17:53:19 * oerjan invades neutral hagb4rd just for the lulz
17:53:37 <oerjan> ALSO, TO PILLAGE HIS RICE FIELDS
17:54:32 <hagb4rd> this channel is unique, indeed
17:54:38 * oerjan realizes invading in the winter may have been a bad move
17:56:32 * oerjan fires a north korean bought missile filled with rice pudding at Phantom_Hoover
17:56:41 <oerjan> NO WONDER THOSE PEOPLE ARE STARVING
17:57:53 * oerjan notes north korean news praise the great destruction made by the missile
17:59:20 <Vorpal> elliott, is the third monkey island game any good?
17:59:55 * oerjan is a little worried by the lack of independent confirmation. also by the fickleness of his f key
18:01:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. It pretty much ignores the second's ending, and it didn't have the original creator involved, but it's still good.
18:01:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Only play it after the first two ... or you give up on them.
18:01:24 <elliott> Vorpal: The fourth you should buy just so you can burn it.
18:01:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I played the first, and I'm in the last chapter of the second
18:01:55 <elliott> Vorpal: That's quick ... assuming you just started recently.
18:02:06 <elliott> I can never beat the ending of the second.
18:02:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Note that ScummVM is "slightly" slow with MI3. Not a problem on any vaguely modern machine of course.
18:02:38 <elliott> It's all the high tech! (640x480x8!)
18:02:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, over a week ago. And so far I just needed to google twice when I got stuck
18:02:55 <Vorpal> elliott, sempron 3300+?
18:03:29 <elliott> Vorpal: It should do. You'll know after the opening cutscene and trying to play.
18:03:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it isn't downloaded yet
18:03:44 <elliott> Especially manoevring the cannon.
18:03:45 <Vorpal> oh wait, there it goes
18:04:04 <elliott> Vorpal: You have to shoot some boats at the start.
18:04:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Failing that, just put ScummVM on your laptop and VNC/whatever in from a bigger screen?
18:04:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hrrm. X forwarding?
18:04:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, BTW, click-hold to do actions with things in MI3. It's one of those circular interface things.
18:04:51 <elliott> Does X forwarding work for SDL or whatever?
18:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: (And right click is inventory.)
18:05:13 <Vorpal> elliott, circular interface as in NWN?
18:05:49 <elliott> Vorpal: You hold it down and a little coin comes up; the middle is look, to the right is eat/talk, to the left is use.
18:05:57 <elliott> (Yes, this is flexible enough to handle the whole game.)
18:06:12 <elliott> Oh, and single-clicking stuff in the inventory lets you combine it with other stuff unless I'm vastly misremembering.
18:06:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I think there's some shortcut to do "the default thing" with an object; double-clicking?
18:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zoecchi.com/Images/Games/NWN2KOTOR2/NWNradial.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zoecchi.com/_include/obsidian2.asp&usg=__KK4evUDhrVGHPRPbOInkSuc9eSI=&h=300&w=300&sz=33&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=qhz6BBuEs1n5xM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=121&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNWN%2Bmenu%2Binterface%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DcIR%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.moz
18:06:32 <Vorpal> illa:en-US:official%26biw%3D1508%26bih%3D679%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=280&ei=_2wfTaq_NY3usgba6OXnDA&oei=_2wfTaq_NY3usgba6OXnDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0&tx=92&ty=52
18:06:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, cut and paste it
18:06:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, like that, except that it's only three and one's in the middle.
18:06:55 <elliott> And no, the first line worked fine.
18:07:43 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway if there are only 3, how can it be circular then?
18:07:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It appears in a circular coin :p
18:08:04 <Vorpal> elliott, also see those arrows at some points? They open to circular sub-menus
18:08:25 <Vorpal> elliott, for the spell menu it feels like ad-infinum in NWN
18:08:32 <elliott> Vorpal: http://quick.mixnmojo.com/screenshots/CmiLauncherCoin1.jpg This is the coin.
18:09:06 -!- augur_ has joined.
18:09:08 <Vorpal> elliott, aiee, please tell me it uses an antialiased edge in the game?
18:09:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's too low resolution to look that ugly. :p
18:09:37 <elliott> Dunno if it's antialiased, but it doesn't look jaggedy.
18:09:50 <Vorpal> elliott, the one you linked looks jagged
18:09:59 <elliott> Yes, it's higher-resolution. I Think it's from the launcher.
18:10:25 <elliott> Here's two ACTUAL SCREENSHOTS
18:10:27 <elliott> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xeu4Tx9GGtk/TM8sd_TKYaI/AAAAAAAAEFM/jvmKMR4mAVw/s640/Curse+of+Monkey+Island+Screenshot.jpg
18:10:28 <elliott> http://firsthour.net/screenshots/curse-of-monkey-island/curse-of-monkey-island-guybrush-barbershop.jpg
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18:12:14 <elliott> Vorpal: The fourth game, by the way, abandoned the nice mouse-based UI for both 3D keyboard-based movement, and KEYBOARD-BASED ACTION-TAKING THAT CHANGED AS YOU LOOKED AROUND.
18:12:15 <elliott> http://www.activewin.com/reviews/software/games/m/images/mi4_019.jpg
18:12:16 <Vorpal> elliott, they both looks jpged
18:12:29 <elliott> If the game actually had any plot it'd be a shame; as it is, it's good because it keeps anyone from playing it.
18:13:09 <elliott> Vorpal: So where are you in number two? I forget the division of chapters exactly.
18:13:24 <Vorpal> elliott, just at start of last chapter. Dinky island
18:13:53 <elliott> Vorpal: If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, what colour is the tree?
18:13:55 <Vorpal> 44MMonkey Island 1 - The Secret of Monkey Island
18:13:55 <Vorpal> 203MMonkey Island 2 - LeChuck's Revenge
18:14:11 <elliott> Vorpal: You can actually get him to agree, BTW.
18:14:14 <elliott> Just keep clicking answers.
18:14:15 <Vorpal> elliott, ... not happened yet?
18:14:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh. Talk to Herman Toothrot.
18:14:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well I took a pause right here and now
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18:15:01 <elliott> Vorpal: The final chapter is quite short though.
18:15:02 <Vorpal> elliott, my head hurts if I have headphones on for more than an hour or two in a single stretch
18:15:05 <elliott> Well, compared to the others.
18:15:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so taking at least half an hour pause
18:15:17 <elliott> Now I want to play, aargh.
18:15:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Headphones, for that authentic Adlib sound.
18:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: For Monkey Island 2?
18:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well actually my computer can't do either very well, I'm using pre-generated ogg (the iMUSE switchover works perfectly with it somehow)
18:17:13 <elliott> Vorpal: What. Adlib emulation requires, like, a 386.
18:17:44 <Vorpal> elliott, does the third game use iMUSE blending?
18:17:56 <elliott> Vorpal: It does but it's more subtle.
18:18:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. Also the tracks are pre-rendered CD audio.
18:18:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you will get seeking then
18:18:56 <Vorpal> elliott, but in the original
18:19:12 <elliott> Know of any .iso rips of the third? This computer lacks an ... optical ... drive ...
18:22:54 <Vorpal> elliott, try tpb, for the authentic .rar rip
18:23:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Every time my brain hears compressed audio, I go unconscious.
18:23:18 <elliott> I bought the fucking CDs, why isn't there an official, free, legal download I can get.
18:23:27 <Vorpal> elliott, you have another computer
18:23:28 <elliott> OH RIGHT I FORGOT I PAID FOR A TINY PIECE OF PLASTIC
18:23:31 <elliott> Vorpal: It has no optical drive.
18:23:37 <Vorpal> elliott, your fucking imac
18:23:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not getting that out of the box for this.
18:23:51 <elliott> Also I have no idea where the CD is.
18:24:48 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
18:26:14 <Vorpal> elliott, well I saw no ISO rip no
18:26:39 <elliott> http://torrentz.eu/a8b84d6f65d843ba2754d84093df88ecff049f49
18:26:47 <elliott> Vorpal: First thing on torrentz :P
18:26:48 <Vorpal> elliott, only looked at tpb
18:27:00 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:27:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Why would you even look at tpb? It barely has anything and the tracker rarely if ever works ...
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18:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/LiquidThreads_sample_screenshot.jpg
18:30:38 <elliott> dear current: 240 KiB/s is insufficient speed!!! go faster
18:30:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is that for ... Talk pages?
18:31:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is that coming to Wikipedia.
18:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It means that they're also no longer editable with the standard MW tools.
18:31:23 <elliott> 400 KiB/s over wifi, fuck yeah.
18:31:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm going to try to forget that and also leave the world before that can happen simultaneously. brb autoerotic asphyxiation
18:32:02 <elliott> (The BEST worst way to die!)
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18:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, please list the things that are awful about it, so that I may have a reference.
18:35:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try "EVERYTHING"
18:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there's even more obnoxiousness that doesn't show up there.
18:36:55 <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, it has a "you have new messages" link right at the top of the screen.
18:37:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Which a) counts *any messages on a page you edit* as new ones for you and b) doesn't reset until you explicitly tell it to.
18:37:59 <elliott> Good thing I barely edit Wikipedia at all now.
18:39:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So they can mess it up even more! Yay!
18:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I mention all of this because it has been installed on RationalWiki (for which I have very little time for any more) and there is a dedicated cadre of users who have decided that if you think it's awful and you don't like it you're a LUDDITE who is AGAINST PROGRESS.
18:41:01 <elliott> Vorpal: ^ This is not a joke.
18:42:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well ... I've learned not to expect reason from RationalWiki ... :-P
18:44:08 <Vorpal> elliott, about one person could trust it. The guy who made it
18:44:26 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT NO, WHY NOT CLICK IT NOW AND GIVE ME YOUR PASSWORDS
18:44:51 <elliott> Vorpal: The *only* better thing is that online SSH key generator.
18:44:59 <elliott> That was the height of comedy.
18:45:03 <elliott> I don't appear to be able to Google it any more.
18:47:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:2010_awards#Lumenos
18:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, he should have won the Lumenos award, but that thing died because everyone on RW is far more interested in discussing minutiae and acting like adolescents than actually doing anything interesting.
18:56:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm now reading an argument you+people are having about Human. I tell you, this thing is a greater goldmine of drama than ED.
18:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep. I stopped taking it seriously forever ago, and complaining is FUN.
18:57:25 <elliott> TBH I wouldn't mind RationalWiki so much if it was instead called FunForRedditAtheistsWiki.
18:57:43 <elliott> As far as I can tell the articles designed to be amusing drown out the ones with any actual information by the thousands.
18:58:47 <elliott> (I need a better term for "reddit atheists" than "reddit atheists".)
18:58:59 <elliott> Anyway, moving on to interesting things!
18:59:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU DO ANGULAR MOMENTUM YET
18:59:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BUT YOU SAID YOU WOULD
18:59:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, actually, just leave that as an exercise to the game player!
19:00:16 <Vorpal> ... what is scary about floating point trig?
19:00:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I WILL NOT BE HAPPY UNTIL EVERYTHING IS A CAUCHY SEQUENCE
19:00:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just pretend they're perfect reals.
19:00:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so shell out to mathematica for it
19:00:56 <elliott> Mathematica ... does not use cauchy sequences.
19:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure you could write that in it
19:01:13 <elliott> Vorpal: You could also write it in Common Lisp.
19:01:28 <elliott> Why you would shell out to an inferior language like Mathematica is unclear.
19:01:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure, but the line "shell out to mathematica" is funnier
19:01:44 <elliott> I would honestly rather shell out to PHP>
19:02:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, implement cauchy sequences in C then
19:02:38 <elliott> Someone help me work out my GolfScript ripoff.
19:03:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I CHOOSE YOU
19:03:52 <elliott> You can get out of it by doing angular momentum.
19:04:14 <Vorpal> elliott, golfscript is fun, try another one
19:04:27 <Vorpal> elliott, say "inferior PHP ripoff" (ouch!)
19:04:40 <elliott> No, Phantom_Hoover is scared of any work.
19:04:44 <elliott> And I really am making a golfscript ripoff.
19:04:56 <elliott> I'm having trouble distinguishing arrays of small integers and strings, though (ha ha Erlang), which is important for eval.
19:05:04 <elliott> [1 2 3] eval --> stack is 1 2 3
19:05:16 <elliott> "abc" eval --> stack is whatever the stack is after executing abc
19:05:51 <Vorpal> elliott is that an issue?
19:06:03 <Vorpal> elliott, after all C has string as array of bytes
19:06:16 <elliott> Because every variable is evaluated on reference. Evaluating anything that isn't a function should just push it to the stack.
19:06:20 <elliott> elliott: [1 2 3] eval --> stack is 1 2 3
19:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, why not let eval execute a list?
19:07:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I fail to see the issue here
19:07:51 <elliott> Your last-but-one sentence is utterly incomprehensible.
19:08:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well does "abc" eval and [97 98 99] eval have to do different things?
19:08:34 <elliott> Because otherwise you couldn't assign [97 98 99] to a variable.
19:08:41 <elliott> Because it'd execute "abc" when you mentioned the variable.
19:08:48 <elliott> As I said, variables are evaluated when mentioned.
19:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, then make string and list different data types?
19:09:20 <elliott> Vorpal: No, because all the operations you might want on the two are the same.
19:09:30 <elliott> I am considering tracking around the function-ness of a list at this point.
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19:15:11 <oerjan> elliott: i recall postscript has two kinds of lists depending on whether you want evaluating them to run what's inside or not
19:17:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there appears to be a strong disagreement between north korea and the usa on this issue
19:18:14 <oerjan> north korea claims that you were completely obliterated by the missile i sent
19:18:35 <oerjan> while the usa claims it exploded just a few seconds after being launched
19:18:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I am a Phantom_Hoover and as such cannot be destroyed with physical weapons.
19:18:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the missile contained rice pudding
19:19:12 <oerjan> and incidentally caused the starving of thousands of north koreans
19:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I used the swatpan to catch it, and then hit you with it!
19:21:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:24:14 <oerjan> elliott: or wait was that dependent on storing it in a variable, my memory is a bit vague
19:26:24 -!- updog has joined.
19:26:31 <elliott> Boy, I've got a massive plate of updog right here.
19:26:40 <elliott> I don't know, updog. What *is* updog?
19:27:57 <oerjan> i have some suspicions about updog
19:28:52 <oerjan> I SUSPECT HE IS OF AN INFERIOR SUBSTRATUM
19:29:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: alternate spelling it seems
19:29:52 <elliott> In Newspeak updog is doubleplusgood.
19:31:06 * oerjan slaps elliott with a dickfor
19:31:10 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:31:22 <elliott> You didn't complete your sentence.
19:31:44 * oerjan swats elliott for ruining the joke -----###
19:32:02 <oerjan> THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES
19:32:09 * Sgeo is considering installing Linux Mint
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19:32:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Copulation.
19:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that was so that I could infiltrate oerjan's evil tyranny and undermine it from within1
19:33:01 <elliott> AW DAMMIT UPDOG WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO UPDOG
19:33:12 <elliott> Oh. It could do with some more uppercasing.
19:34:56 <Sgeo> elliott, Shut up about Newspeak!
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19:40:10 <elliott> Gah, why is it using all the CPU.
19:40:31 <oerjan> it's due to a plot by its arch-nemesis downcat
19:40:57 -!- Quadrescence has left (?).
19:41:26 <oerjan> inorite sounds like a very annoying mineral
19:41:44 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:42:26 <elliott> I already told you, I don't know
19:43:13 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:43:51 <Sgeo> What language is your bots in?
19:43:56 -!- updog has joined.
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19:44:43 <elliott> It is also proof that I have no concept of "pointless".
19:45:16 <Sgeo> Yet you have the gall to call things I do pointless.
19:45:32 <elliott> I detect the distinct tinge of offence.
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19:56:34 <elliott> i think i've upset sgeo forever now
19:58:40 <elliott> OS X thinks that you unpack .bin files to .bin.cpgz.
20:01:00 <ais523> sorry, I was busy saying hi to a greeting cascade in a different channel
20:01:01 <ais523> elliott: cpgz is an abbreviation for .cpio.gz?
20:02:29 <elliott> ais523: i have a lot of updog lying around, can you take care of it?
20:02:31 <coppro> elliott: also after reading perl6 "spec", I believe that @foo.filter(* % 2)>>*>>2 would have the desired effect discussed yesterday
20:03:04 <elliott> coppro: not @foo.filter(*%2)>>* ** 2?
20:03:20 <coppro> oh, no, you're right, my bad
20:03:28 <coppro> or @foo.filter(* % 2)»**»2
20:03:48 <coppro> the >> or » is the "hyper" metaoperator and extends the operation over the list
20:04:04 <coppro> » is more of a pain to actually type but more readable
20:04:21 <elliott> i think all the perl 6 editors must have really tricked-out emacs setups for unicode
20:04:35 <coppro> also this assumes filter exists and works like that
20:04:42 <coppro> I haven't checked that yet
20:05:06 <coppro> (also, re my complaint about it not being a spec, ff and fff operators are /never/ defined. They just say "have semantics like Perl 5 .. and ... flipflops)
20:07:19 <coppro> ah, nope, that's not quite right
20:08:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm about to test COMI (MI3) in ScummVM now.
20:09:09 <elliott> Vorpal: So if it works well, then it works well on 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo w/ 4 GiB of RAM, good nvidia integrated GPU and 256 GiB SSD. Which is of course very relevant to your situation.
20:09:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and I checked, it works well on my computer
20:10:09 <Vorpal> elliott, play it on hard!
20:10:20 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no hard, there's just "wimp" vs. "actual game".
20:10:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I assume you played MI2 on hard too.
20:10:29 <elliott> I have no idea why the easy versions exist.
20:10:34 <Vorpal> elliott, of course I used hard
20:10:37 <elliott> Why play an adventure game if you don't want puzzles?
20:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, except for MI3 it looks like it is called normal and mega
20:11:03 <Vorpal> while for MI2 it was easy and normal
20:11:06 <elliott> Mega is the one you want to play. :p
20:11:17 <elliott> Vorpal: First report: Well, it starts up! It's ugly-LCD-scaled, though.
20:11:20 <elliott> Why are LCDs so bad at scaling?
20:11:30 <elliott> I can't use the 2x filter because 960 > 800.
20:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, wait a second. 800?
20:11:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which dimension is 800?
20:12:05 <elliott> 640x480 * 2 = something x 960.
20:12:12 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you play it at native res?
20:12:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure. It gets ugly-LCD-scaled.
20:12:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Talk about non-immersive.
20:12:50 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: windowed on completely black bg
20:12:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe if it could black out the rest of my screen and center it.
20:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and MI3 of course has voice acting, if you didn't know.
20:13:12 <elliott> Good voice acting, mind you.
20:13:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so black bg and hide menu bars then window near middle
20:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I noticed. I played the first scene to test it
20:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well no, but I had to test system reqs
20:14:30 <elliott> Why doesn't ScummVM have a 1.5x.
20:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, black border!
20:14:43 <elliott> 960x720 with black border around it would be perfect.
20:14:53 <elliott> Vorpal: This is 128 ppi, dammit!
20:14:56 <elliott> 640x480 looks like my thumbnail!
20:15:18 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway windowed is only sane option for me. 96 dpi or such. And 24"
20:15:31 <Vorpal> elliott, 24" wide screen even
20:15:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I think every computer should come with a low-quality early-90s CRT, complete with digital-to-VGA converter.
20:16:02 <elliott> It's the best way to play.
20:18:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Allow me to demonstrate why windowed doesn't work for me.
20:19:22 <elliott> imgur appears to now transcode big pngs to jpg.
20:20:45 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNnQzdA
20:20:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Now consider that that's on a 13" screen.
20:22:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Get the picture? :p
20:22:37 <Vorpal> waiting for it to load
20:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes what is the problem
20:22:59 <elliott> Vorpal: OK. First look at its size in comparison to the whole thing.
20:23:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Now try and remember how big a 13" laptop's screen is.
20:23:09 <Vorpal> elliott, SURE if you have 2x 1 TB SSD for use in RAID 1
20:23:14 <elliott> Vorpal: (Try looking at your laptop's and imagining a screen quite a bit smaller.)
20:23:27 <elliott> Get the problem? It's tiny. Not very nice.
20:23:42 <elliott> I'm going to play it with LCD-crappy-scaling, I think.
20:23:57 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Still it fills less of the screen than on my desktop
20:24:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Full screen the damn thing :P
20:24:25 <Vorpal> elliott, on a wide screen!?
20:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Black borders at the side, duh.
20:24:42 <elliott> Vorpal: And if you have more than 800 vertical pixels, you can use the 2x scaler.
20:24:45 <elliott> So the LCD scaling will be minimal.
20:25:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have YOU played monkey island?
20:25:08 * Sgeo is addicted to watching DS9
20:25:26 <Sgeo> Although it is, thus far, the least entertaining series I have ever comitted myself to watching
20:25:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I have 1050 vertical
20:25:51 <Sgeo> Does it get better in season 2?
20:26:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Right. Try full-screening it; set the scaler to "2x".
20:26:17 <Vorpal> elliott, not in global options?
20:26:24 <elliott> Vorpal: No, that'll set it for the launcher UI too.
20:26:47 <elliott> Now I leave you scoundrels to play the game!
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20:29:06 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mtmp mo 9; ytmp yr 1; s splnet(); alien. i quote below from the domain of a line behind the original file!
20:34:28 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:37:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:48:14 -!- elliott has joined.
20:48:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Helpful tip for COMI: If your cursor is an arrow, double-clicking goes there immediately, btw.
20:48:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:50:20 * Sgeo is excited for this month
20:51:33 -!- elliott has joined.
20:51:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you been able to get voice-with-no-subtitles working?
20:52:07 <Sgeo> elliott, why Must O'Brien Suffer?
20:52:10 <elliott> Vorpal: It shows the subtitles for me.
20:52:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Even when I just set it to Speech.
20:52:56 <Sgeo> Have plans to meet up with a girl
20:53:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Please answer quickly.
20:53:27 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, why is this distressing?
20:53:43 * elliott envisions thousands of tiny little Sgeos running around, retreats into his own nightmare.
20:54:02 <elliott> I'm going to go drown my sorrows. In Monkey Island.
20:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, you are clearly incapable of a committed relationship.
20:54:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, how does Factor feel?
20:54:18 <elliott> You abandoned her, you bastard.
20:54:43 <elliott> I wonder if even Sgeo knows.
20:54:53 <Sgeo> I don't think I gave Scala more than a passing glance
20:55:16 <Sgeo> Never even touched Clojure
20:55:25 <elliott> Sgeo: OK, I give up guessing.
20:55:30 <Sgeo> I started reading about Scala again, then this channel discouraged me
20:55:38 <Sgeo> I think I went Factor -> Newspeak
20:56:02 <Sgeo> Awesome, shutup PMs me now
20:57:28 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:58:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Have you been able to get voice-with-no-subtitles working? <-- no clue
21:05:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]).
21:07:05 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
21:11:23 * Sgeo wants to read The Science of Discworld at some point
21:16:56 <fizzie> 3, was that the one with Darwin in it?
21:17:45 <coppro> with the god of evolution
21:27:33 -!- elliott has joined.
21:27:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Ian Stewart is the one who wrote that EVIL BOOK, FLATTERLAND.
21:27:53 <elliott> (Information thanks to Sgeo)
21:28:02 <elliott> coppro: hello, i'm going back to playing COMI
21:28:08 <elliott> none of you are interesting enough
21:29:15 <coppro> elliott: flatterland is evil?
21:29:25 <elliott> coppro: according to Sgeo!
21:29:43 <coppro> Sgeo: flatterland is evil?
21:29:48 <elliott> 05:41:20 <SgeoN1> I just realized something horrible about Flatterland
21:29:49 <elliott> 05:42:36 <SgeoN1> It promotes the pseudoscientific bullshit involving taking scientific words, interpreting stuff as you please, and thinking it means something
21:29:49 <elliott> 05:43:10 --- join: jcp (~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539) joined #esoteric
21:29:50 <elliott> 05:44:07 <SgeoN1> I feel no guilt about spoiling this: the last scene involves the protagonist basing arguments for gender equality on Flatland's supersymmetry
21:29:52 <elliott> 05:45:29 <SgeoN1> "Supersymmetric sister! ..."
21:29:54 <elliott> 05:46:03 <SgeoN1> I forgot the rest of her advertisement on Flatland's Internet
21:30:01 <elliott> and now to play a game where i can forget all you bastards exit ->
21:30:57 <coppro> elliott: we don't exit
21:31:20 <elliott> it's funny because i meant to say exist, you bsatards.
21:32:50 <elliott> you don't know anything. i'm going back to guybrush threepwood.
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21:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAT KIND OF MATHEMATICAL CRIME CAN JUSTIFY SUCH A CRIME
21:38:12 <oerjan> supersymmetric ones, of course
21:41:48 -!- j-invariant has joined.
21:41:57 <Sgeo> "Dramatis Personae" was an awesome episode
21:46:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what?
21:47:13 <Sgeo> j-invariant, what?
21:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, Dramatis Personae is the pretentious Latin name for a list of characters in a play.
21:48:18 <Sgeo> It's also an awesome season 1 episode of DS9
21:49:26 <fizzie> And a group of theater-like people in Stephenson's Diamond Age book.
21:50:46 <ais523> gah, argument in another channel: does O(1/n) mean anything at all, and if so, does it mean something different from O(1)?
21:51:44 <j-invariant> using f in O(1/n) iff f in O(n) by my definition
21:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, I think the definition of O(f(x)) is reliant on f being strictly increasing.
21:53:45 -!- elliott has joined.
21:53:49 <coppro> O(1/n) does mean something!
21:53:54 <olsner> k/n will be smaller than some constant eventually, so O(1/n) should imply a lower upper bound
21:54:03 <elliott> ais523: O(1/n) = O(n^-1) -- it's EXPONENTIAL!
21:54:20 <elliott> it definitely isn't O(1) though i don't think
21:54:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: n^-1 <-- LOOKS LIKE EXPONENTIATION TO ME
21:54:39 <oerjan> f(x) = 1 isn't O(1/n) :D
21:54:43 <coppro> O(1/n) is not the same as either O(1) or O(n)
21:55:01 <Sgeo> elliott, Dramatis Personae <3
21:55:07 <j-invariant> f in O(1) means that there exists some x' and c such that every x > x' we have f(x) >= c
21:55:44 <elliott> i've always thought =< would be a better symbol
21:56:00 <Sgeo> Isn't there a language that does that?
21:56:14 <coppro> you merely described \Omega(1) there
21:56:28 <coppro> no, that is exactly \Omega(1)
21:56:34 <elliott> Sgeo: btw, the Dominion arc starts properly at the end of season 2.
21:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover> WP gives f(x) is O(g(x)) iff |f(x)| <= M|g(x)| forall x>c.
21:56:50 <oerjan> ais523: i guess the confusion is because for things larger than O(1) you have an equivalent choice of _either_ using the "every x > x'" form _or_ adding a constant and saying it holds everywhere?
21:57:05 <coppro> although you forgot the absolute value condition
21:57:19 <oerjan> and those obviously give different interpretations for O(1/n)
21:57:24 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: uh what
21:57:57 <coppro> and f(x) is O(g(x)), then f(x) is also O(1)
21:58:20 <elliott> new question -- are there any algorithms that are O(1/n)?
21:58:32 <elliott> I think there are, but only ones that explicitly do a for loop up to 1/n :P
21:58:38 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: oh, you're saying 1/x is O(1)
21:59:02 <coppro> more generally, x^n is O(x^m) if n < m
21:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, not if you allow n to be arbitrarily close to 0.
21:59:21 <oerjan> ais523: however when you use O()-notation for things like Taylor series, you cannot just add constants (e.g. since you are taking limits with real numbers rather than a sequence)
21:59:46 <olsner> hmm, don't you *multiply* by constants though?
21:59:58 <coppro> n^-10000000000000000 is O(1)
22:00:06 <elliott> Pop quiz: How do you install Ubuntu on a machine that can't run unetbootin, doesn't have an optical drive, and without a USB drive to hand?
22:00:37 <elliott> Prizes offered for ansewrs.
22:00:40 <coppro> elliott: grab a minimalist floppy with debbootstrap installed?
22:00:52 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: why not?
22:00:58 <elliott> coppro: um ok this is a macbook air, it doesn't have an optical drive and it _certainly_ doesn't have a floppy drive :D
22:01:22 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: uh what
22:01:26 <elliott> coppro: I'm thinking either netboot, or partition the drive, somehow write the Ubuntu CD to that drive, and boot from it
22:01:34 <coppro> it's about asymptotic behavior, Phantom_Hoover
22:01:38 <coppro> elliott: there's a windows-based installer
22:01:46 <elliott> coppro: It's a Mac. It doesn't come with Windows either.
22:01:53 <elliott> coppro: also Wubi is beyond shit
22:01:56 <elliott> it is the shittiest McShit of Shitville
22:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, wait, starting point isn't... OK, you're right.
22:01:59 <olsner> oerjan: istr the thing you use for Taylor series is a different notation that just happens to look similar to O-notation but is actually completely different
22:02:04 <coppro> elliott: can you repartition the drive safely?
22:02:10 <elliott> coppro: yes, while it's booted no less
22:02:22 <coppro> elliott: just do that and have a VM run the CD
22:02:23 <Gregor> elliott: Hello, welcome to McDonalds, would you like to try our Shitty McShitville McShit?
22:02:33 <elliott> coppro: netbooting might actually work out in this case -- if I can install a netbooter without a CD. I think rEFIt might be able to do it?
22:02:46 <elliott> coppro: VM hardware veeeeery different to Mac hardware.
22:02:50 <Sgeo> <elliott> Sgeo: btw, the Dominion arc starts properly at the end of season 2.
22:03:09 <Sgeo> Also, I feel that ok was a proper response especially given that the previous line was about Erlang
22:03:09 <coppro> elliott: Ubuntu installer doesn't care about hardware does it?
22:03:15 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, rarely
22:03:28 <elliott> coppro: erm. i wouldn't trust it not to, especially since EFI is ~weirdcakes~
22:03:30 <coppro> elliott: and if it does, it should work well enough to dpkg-reconfigure everything
22:03:32 <elliott> and it installs bootloaders
22:03:45 <coppro> elliott: oh yeah, forgot about bootloaders
22:03:57 <Sgeo> I did read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency a while ago
22:03:57 <coppro> debbootstrap then and do the bootloader config manually
22:04:06 <Sgeo> coppro will want me to read it again, iirc
22:04:13 <elliott> coppro: i don't like your solutions, i just want to get the actual cd booted, through any means :)
22:04:20 <elliott> the actual installation I want to do with a native boot of the normal installer
22:04:24 <coppro> elliott: fine. write the cd to partition then
22:04:36 <elliott> coppro: I am not convinced that will work :D a USB image, maybe
22:04:45 <elliott> plus can ubuntu install to the media it was booted off?
22:04:51 <elliott> IIRC it's a pain to get it to do that
22:05:34 <oerjan> olsner: um i think the only difference with Taylor series is that you are taking the limit as you go to a particular real value rather than as you go to infinity
22:06:04 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:06:22 <coppro> elliott: I don't think it's difficult at all
22:06:24 -!- pingveno has joined.
22:06:38 <elliott> a netboot is looking appealing at this point
22:06:44 <coppro> no, you wouldn't be able to without massive trickery
22:06:45 <elliott> erm, if i can netboot over wifi
22:07:03 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:04 <elliott> coppro: well i've done similar things
22:07:08 <elliott> coppro: involving lazy, forced unmounts
22:07:15 <elliott> coppro: using unetbootin in its put-it-in-C:\ mode
22:07:26 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBoot WONDER IF I COULD USETHIS
22:08:20 * coppro is going to add the bias warning template
22:08:22 <coppro> where is that template
22:09:48 <coppro> elliott: that page you just linked
22:11:19 <coppro> "technology from Apple"
22:11:24 -!- pingveno has joined.
22:11:27 <elliott> coppro: you do realise that NetBoot is a proprietary Apple thing?
22:11:53 <elliott> coppro: does it "read like an advertisement" solely because it doesn't have a huge Criticism section or something?
22:12:02 <elliott> everything there is neutral and referenced
22:12:20 <coppro> elliott: it doesn't seem neutral to me; if other disagree, wiki magic will remove that template and things will be well
22:13:05 <coppro> but it, in my opinion, ought to read more like "NetBoot is a proprietary Apple implementation of network booting" or the like
22:13:25 <elliott> coppro: that sounds less neutral than the current text.
22:14:27 <elliott> coppro: "proprietary" being the fourth word
22:14:43 <elliott> NetBoot is Apple's implementation of network booting -- sure
22:15:01 <coppro> elliott: ok, dropping proprietary would be ok
22:15:22 <coppro> I actually don't know enough about it to know if it's proprietary, I just said that because you did
22:15:47 <elliott> i think the extensions to the protocol are proprietary
22:16:45 <elliott> wonder if there's a usb stick lying around here
22:25:34 <elliott> ais523: is there an #ubuntu-less-stupid?
22:26:50 <elliott> why not, i have a question requiring actual though to answer
22:40:27 <ais523> elliott: you could try a channel at random
22:40:40 <ais523> especially on freenode, ubuntu saturation may be high enough to find someone who knows
22:40:55 <elliott> ais523: picked my channel, will ask a question now
22:41:09 <elliott> I want to write the Live CD/USB to a disk partition and boot that with e.g. GRUB
22:41:12 <elliott> is this possible? if so, how?
22:41:16 <elliott> ais523: am i doing it right?
22:41:54 <elliott> 22:41 itaylor57: Gartral: they arent flags just optiopns
22:43:27 <Sgeo> Maybe the Bajoran-Cardassian stuff is interesting
22:43:33 <Sgeo> (Just saw "Duet")
22:44:03 <elliott> Of course it's interesting X-P
22:44:18 <Sgeo> I thought it would bore me
22:44:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Does Star Trek count as mass-market really?
22:44:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ... what does and does not count as mass-market?
22:44:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As what, mass-market?
22:45:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yer not a HATER are ye?!
22:45:21 <Sgeo> Does HHGG count as mass-market?
22:45:37 <Sgeo> Does the SCP Foundation wiki?
22:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Which elliott has not, and as such he is inferior to sgeo.
22:45:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've read like 55% of it!
22:46:11 <elliott> ais523: your idea didn't work
22:50:00 <elliott> Vorpal: you know how you mentioned using a native EFI bootloader?
22:50:11 <elliott> Vorpal: apparently VTs don't work with that. or suspend/resume. or brightness control
22:56:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's your lucky day! You get to help me figure out my new partitioning scheme!
22:57:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I NEED THREE PARTITIONS YO
22:58:10 <elliott> What's the best partition format that both OS X and Linux can read?
22:59:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, I would think that they can both read FAT32 at least.
22:59:04 <elliott> In fact I know that for a fact.
23:03:52 <elliott> Oh come on, surely someone is opinionated enough to partition my drive for me.
23:06:08 <elliott> ais523: why don't you partition my drive :P
23:06:14 <coppro> FAT32 will work though
23:07:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: apparently VTs don't work with that. or suspend/resume. or brightness control <-- wtf wtf and wtf
23:08:06 <Vorpal> elliott, most wtf at the first thing though!
23:08:14 <elliott> Vorpal: they stay black apparently
23:08:15 <elliott> Vorpal: because the legacy bios support doesn't go on
23:08:19 <elliott> Vorpal: so clearly linux's efi support SUCKS
23:08:36 <elliott> I can't figure out how to partition this drive though
23:08:46 <elliott> 256 GiB ... quite small since I need two partitions and then a shared one
23:08:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well get an 1 TB SSD!
23:09:01 <elliott> shared I think I'll go for ext2 or ext3, since there's a FUSE thing for ext2/ext3 designed for OS X
23:09:04 <elliott> http://alperakcan.org/?open=projects&project=fuse-ext2
23:09:15 <elliott> not sure if i can trust it
23:09:24 <elliott> last release 0.0.7 in 2009 X-D
23:09:35 <Vorpal> elliott, question: are there no insult-fights in MI2?
23:09:54 <elliott> Vorpal: there are in MI3 though
23:10:29 <elliott> maybe ... 96 gig shared partition
23:10:34 <elliott> that only leaves 80 gigs per os
23:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I sing the joyful song of 1 TB disks in RAID 1 at this point!
23:11:25 <oerjan> sing a song of sixpence
23:11:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, err was this a pun of some sort?
23:11:41 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:11:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm fucking impressed that they can even fit 256 gigs into this thing :P
23:11:55 <elliott> I keep turning it on its side trying to figure out the bulge where all the components are
23:12:34 <oerjan> Vorpal: a very cheap pun. at least i doubt you can get 1 TB disks for six pence
23:12:37 <elliott> Vorpal: btw one really cool thing about os x is that you can resize the current booted OS partition
23:15:15 <elliott> Vorpal: quick, how should i partition!
23:20:03 <elliott> i just want actual partitioning advice at this point
23:20:32 <elliott> os x size, ubuntu size, and shared size
23:21:41 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
23:24:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 256 gigs give me three numbers
23:25:55 <oerjan> clearly this requires a salomonic judgement. i hear he was good at partitioning.
23:26:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Let me restate.
23:26:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How many gigs should I give to OS X.
23:26:15 <elliott> How many gigs should I give to Ubuntu.
23:26:18 <elliott> How many gigs should I give to shared.
23:26:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That gives a whopping 64 gigs for each OS ... waay to smal.
23:26:53 <elliott> I want to use the entire disk.
23:27:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You are telling me to give 32 gigs to each OS.
23:27:33 <elliott> 80 gigs is more reasonable.
23:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, incidentally, what in god's name are you wearing in your Facebook profile picture?
23:29:08 <elliott> Maybe 72 for both OSes, and 112 for shared.
23:29:28 <elliott> oh god mental image stop it
23:29:53 <elliott> Hmm. I've currently used 34 gigs on this OS X partition and I barely have anything on it.
23:30:49 <elliott> Perhaps 96 (OS X) + 64 (Ubuntu), leaving 96 for the shared partition.
23:32:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:35:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: quick, how should i partition! <-- 10 GB for OS X, rest for linux
23:35:16 <elliott> Vorpal: you do realise that even a base os x install is >10gigs?
23:35:33 <elliott> this thing is 3 days old and its os x partition is 34 gig used
23:35:42 <elliott> Vorpal: also i want a shared partition
23:37:13 <elliott> No. But I've barely added anything.
23:39:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, why are you looking at my Facebook profile?
23:39:47 <variable> I just found the worst Useless Use Of Cat ever: cat a >> file; cat b >> file; cat c >> file; cat d >> file;
23:39:51 <Sgeo> Also: Part of a blood drop suit
23:40:03 <Sgeo> Was volunteering at a blood drive at my school
23:40:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: you do realise that even a base os x install is >10gigs? <-- ah, uh
23:40:30 <elliott> variable: and I say that as an *advocate* for useless uses of cat :)
23:40:32 <Vorpal> elliott, how much more than 10 GB?
23:40:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I do actually plan to use this occasionally.
23:40:46 <Vorpal> <elliott> this thing is 3 days old and its os x partition is 34 gig used <--- what the fucking thing
23:40:54 <elliott> Vorpal: To be fair, it also has iLife installed.
23:40:58 <Vorpal> elliott, 60 GB to OS X?
23:41:04 <Sgeo> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs941.snc4/73456_489504182743_618027743_7473878_3043494_n.jpg
23:41:07 <elliott> Vorpal: More like 72 to 96 gigs.
23:41:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Ubuntu should be fine on 64 to 72 gigs. Rest can go to shared.
23:41:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well don't ask me if you don't want to get an answer!
23:41:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't want an answer that's unworkable :P
23:41:39 <elliott> Sgeo: What animal is that.
23:42:24 <Vorpal> looks like a strawberry to me
23:42:32 <Vorpal> (no not an amimal indeed!)
23:43:30 <fizzie> I have this Ubuntu I've been using a while, it's taking a bit less than 10 jiggabytes, discounting /home. (Just as another point of data.)
23:43:49 <variable> Phantom_Hoover, http://pastebin.com/Z3nFQBfk
23:44:26 <elliott> fizzie: Counting home in this case.
23:44:32 <elliott> fizzie: A lot of things will be shared but not all.
23:44:52 <fizzie> elliott: Er, well, my /home is 315G, so that's not a helpful data point for you, I think.
23:44:53 <variable> Phantom_Hoover, he asked me why it doesn't work
23:44:56 <elliott> variable: the kind of code only a python programmer could write
23:45:03 <elliott> variable: love the duplicated list-contrib lines
23:45:16 <fizzie> The kind of face only a Python programmer could love.
23:45:16 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes, indeed.
23:45:38 <elliott> fizzie: "If they had offered a terabyte SSD..."
23:47:22 <fizzie> ...they would have asked a lot of money for it.
23:47:30 <elliott> fizzie: They already asked a lot of money.
23:48:26 <augur> whats wrong elliott
23:48:41 <augur> did the mean GHCi do bad things to you
23:48:44 <olsner> nan is unequal to everything including itself, what's the problem? :)
23:48:53 <augur> show me on the doll where simon peyton jones touched you
23:49:00 <elliott> olsner: IEEEE CANNOT OVERRIDE THE LAWS OF MATHEMATICS
23:49:07 <elliott> YOU ARE BREAKING THEM PRELUDE
23:49:36 <olsner> those "laws of mathematics" should be saying something about not holding when dividing by zero
23:49:50 <augur> olsner: obviously that doesnt matter
23:49:55 <augur> for all x, x == x.
23:50:03 <elliott> 0/0 shouldn't be a valid program, but if it is
23:50:08 <elliott> then it'd better return a meaningful result
23:50:09 <augur> this is simply true regardless of anything
23:50:16 <elliott> augur: SURE THING AYN RAND
23:50:23 <elliott> ayn rand would have hated floating point
23:50:27 <augur> I SAID FORALL X NOT FORALL A
23:50:32 <elliott> she'd write books on the evil of floating point
23:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I think I once said that to an Objectivist at my school.
23:51:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I ... doubt he got it
23:52:22 <elliott> augur: <ayn rand> lolz A=A this is basis of philosophy because i am smart
23:52:28 <elliott> augur: <ieee> nan != nan bitches
23:52:31 <elliott> augur: <ayn rand> WAAAAAAR
23:52:51 <augur> oh is that true about float? lol
23:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have no idea what the hell the "A is A" thing is meant to mean.
23:53:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yOU ARE YOURSELF AND NO OTHER SELF;;;;ERGO TAXES IS THEFT
23:53:16 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: all things are self-identical
23:53:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's meant to be like ... uh ... you are yourself, and you are not anyone else, so you have your own existence and consciousness and mind
23:53:34 <elliott> and are therefore morally obligated only to yourself
23:53:58 <elliott> i hereby accuse augur of being a smelly objectivist
23:54:10 <augur> hey im not smelly! :(
23:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I accuse augur of not knowing about smelly objectivists.
23:54:17 <augur> nor an objectivist but
23:55:35 <elliott> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1293725159/30 is it a sign of mental retardation if i can't stop moving my cursor around with the dot?
23:57:47 <j-invariant> nobody except godel should be allowed to say anything about it
23:58:40 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT
23:58:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: GEB is ... not a good book.
23:59:31 <coppro> it certainly shouldn't be considered a good math book
00:00:34 <elliott> GEB is what happens when a smart person has some kind of mental blockage that makes them consider recursion amazing.
00:01:05 <elliott> j-invariant: Penrose should just be ... forced to shut up forever?
00:01:10 <elliott> j-invariant: like a restraining order
00:01:14 <elliott> he can't publish any books any more
00:01:20 <j-invariant> elliott: the problem with Penrose is he's a really smart guy
00:01:33 <j-invariant> he just has this one absolutely idiotic idea that he talks about sometimes
00:01:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he thinks that intelligent life is immortal because the universe's maximum state of entropy has all information or something
00:01:44 <elliott> ??? I don't know, I can't explain crazy people
00:01:53 <elliott> j-invariant: the smarter someone gets, I think, the more likely they are to have one really stupid idea
00:01:59 <elliott> and be unable to see how stupid it is
00:02:19 <j-invariant> oh yeah einstein with that stupid "relativity" stuff
00:02:20 <elliott> coppro: yeah what was that fucker thinking with realtivity
00:02:40 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: spooky action at a distance
00:03:04 <elliott> that's my favourite name of anyhting really
00:03:05 <j-invariant> isn't the non-existence of action at a distance a direct consequence of relativity?
00:03:10 <elliott> spooky action at a distance
00:03:15 <elliott> it's just ... the best name
00:03:15 <coppro> j-invariant: well, you'd think
00:03:32 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance_(physics) i bet this was renamed from the proper name by wikilamers
00:03:36 <coppro> j-invariant: but Einstein also developed the first inklings of quantum theory
00:04:10 <coppro> he hated quantum theory because of its implications
00:04:17 <coppro> he was too hung up on dumb concepts
00:04:30 <coppro> despite having given the insight which led to the
00:05:23 <elliott> gödel's really stupid idea was that he was being poisoned, but that one resolved itself quite quickly :D
00:05:25 <elliott> aww that was an awful thing to say
00:07:04 <elliott> Vorpal: OS X — 96 gigs; Ubuntu — 56 gigs; Shared — 96 gigs
00:07:10 <elliott> Vorpal: dunno whether those are decimal are binary gbs but who cares
00:07:13 <elliott> does this look reasonable?
00:07:26 <coppro> my school has a course that includes undecidability
00:07:30 <coppro> I've heard it's kind of boring :(
00:07:40 <elliott> I can resize the OS X one at any time really, but
00:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott, no it doesn't
00:08:24 <Vorpal> elliott, too much of OS X :P
00:08:34 <elliott> Vorpal: aside from zealotry.
00:08:38 <Vorpal> but since you can resize it again, sure
00:08:40 <elliott> OS X takes up more space, simple fact
00:08:46 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but i'd have to get rid of ubuntu/shared
00:09:01 <elliott> Vorpal: because this takes up the whole disk
00:09:05 <Vorpal> elliott, couldn't you add shared-2
00:09:12 <elliott> Vorpal: you mean shrink OS X?
00:09:17 <elliott> I doubt i'll want to give less to OS X
00:09:25 <elliott> considering there's only 50 gigs free on there as it stands
00:09:33 <Vorpal> elliott, aren't there shrinkable linux file systems?
00:09:35 <elliott> 56 gigs for ubuntu might be too little? probably not
00:09:41 <elliott> Vorpal: probably. i'm just going to go with ubuntu default
00:09:58 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure how much ubuntu need
00:10:03 <Vorpal> du -sh /usr might take a while
00:10:12 <elliott> Vorpal: well as fizzie said his ubuntu install only uses about 10 gigs.
00:10:18 <Vorpal> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
00:10:21 <elliott> Vorpal: but there's /home in these too, just things like music will go on shared
00:10:34 <Vorpal> elliott, well my /home :
00:10:41 <Vorpal> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
00:10:41 <Vorpal> /dev/mapper/array-home
00:10:41 <Vorpal> 69G 59G 7,4G 89% /home
00:10:54 <Vorpal> I guess I'll have to grow it
00:11:01 <elliott> yes, yes, I /am/ planning to buy my big desktop system.
00:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you here see the wonder of LVM!
00:11:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd like it if there was some kind of standard thing like a slimmed down LVM ... with saner nomenclature and tools.
00:11:30 <elliott> Vorpal: and if all filesystems supported resizing. online resizing.
00:11:43 <Vorpal> elliott, well actually jfs supports on line growing
00:11:46 <elliott> Vorpal: but, uh, LVM has the wondrous feature of interoperating with NOTHING
00:11:55 <elliott> want to just LOOK at your files in another OS? SORYYYYY
00:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, so does ext4 iirc
00:12:08 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah. well. i'm not making my shared partition ext4
00:12:10 <Vorpal> elliott, lvm for fuse? DO IT NOW!
00:12:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I think ext3 supports resizing too
00:12:52 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I doubt I will change from linux on my destop
00:12:55 <elliott> Fuck it, I'm resizing. If I decide it's all wrong I'll trash ubuntu & shared and redo it.
00:13:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what about swap
00:13:07 <elliott> Vorpal: um hello @? (okay so @ won't interact with anything else either :-))
00:13:14 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't need swap, I have four gigabytes of RAM
00:13:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't suspend to disk then
00:13:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure you can with a swap file.
00:13:52 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, fine, I'll make room for a six gig swap.
00:13:54 <Sgeo> elliott, it's a blood drop
00:13:54 <Vorpal> elliott, separate /boot I guess?
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00:14:03 <Vorpal> elliott, needs to be 60 MB or less
00:14:16 <Vorpal> (well it could be larger)
00:14:17 * Sgeo finished Braid
00:14:24 <Vorpal> (would be a waste though)
00:14:29 <elliott> Vorpal: why separate /boot.
00:14:43 <Vorpal> elliott, well depends on if your bootloader can handle the main fs
00:15:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess you need to install bootloader into partition rather than into mbr on that computer
00:16:09 <Vorpal> /var contains a few chroots
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00:17:06 <elliott> Wonder why LimeChat crashed.
00:17:12 <elliott> (Resize and partition, no less.)
00:17:24 <elliott> OK, now I need to put GRUB on the shared partition.
00:17:40 <elliott> You can install GRUB from OS X right? ...right?
00:18:11 <elliott> can you download "GRUB 2 images" or something?
00:18:16 <olsner> I wouldn't count on it: :)
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00:20:55 <elliott> configure: error: objconv not found which is required when building with apple compiler
00:21:02 <elliott> olsner: grub can build on os x apparently?
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00:22:01 <olsner> sure, but isn't it heaps easier to do this from ubuntu once you install it? :)
00:22:08 <j-invariant> 00:21 < c_wraith> (I have goldbach's conjecture in formal logic as a tattoo)
00:22:10 <elliott> olsner: i need grub to install it.
00:22:30 <elliott> goldbach's conjecture is beautiful now?
00:22:33 <olsner> right, due to not having an optical drive?
00:22:42 <elliott> olsner: i'm going to boot from hd with grub :p
00:22:47 <olsner> so you're going to install the installer and boot it with grub?
00:22:49 <elliott> olsner: I could just fish out a usb stick but this is the moar funz
00:23:33 <elliott> GRUB2 will be compiled with following components:
00:23:40 <elliott> oh wait grub doesn't do 64-bit
00:24:12 <olsner> can it even boot without efi support on a mac?
00:24:20 <elliott> olsner: well. yes. with bios emulation.
00:24:26 <elliott> although probably it hands over control as bios?
00:24:33 <elliott> i'm just scared that it'll be grub-efi
00:24:42 <elliott> olsner: see http://grub.enbug.org/TestingOnMacbook
00:25:08 <fizzie> But Grub-EFI is so modern!
00:25:27 <elliott> is it actually possible to force a bios build???
00:25:49 <elliott> --with-platform=pc should do it
00:26:05 <elliott> (is that "ok" to do? who knows let's find out)
00:27:48 <elliott> In file included from kern/err.c:23:
00:27:48 <elliott> ./include/grub/i18n.h:28:5: error: "ENABLE_NLS" is not defined
00:27:48 <elliott> make: *** [kernel_img-kern_err.o] Error 1
00:27:49 <elliott> make: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
00:27:51 <elliott> In file included from kern/misc.c:26:
00:27:53 <elliott> ./include/grub/i18n.h:28:5: error: "ENABLE_NLS" is not defined
00:31:27 <elliott> ok seriously. even a grub 1 image would do
00:31:41 <elliott> i'll try a grub floppy. who knows
00:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> [[On December 5, 2009 Joel ingested a quantity of Traumeel, a homeopathic alternative to ibuprofen.]]
00:33:42 <elliott> Oh, I thought it was ... without context.
00:33:48 <elliott> On December 6, 2009 Joel ate breakfast.
00:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> This is a perfect demonstration of the way that selection pressures in our culture are working against intelligence.
00:38:13 <Phantom_Hoover> People clever enough to realise that you should use evidence-based suicide do not go on to reproduce, while those who opt for complementary and alternative suicide live.
00:38:43 <elliott> [[Within a month after her Traumeel incident, on December 31, 2009 Joel publicly posted[51] that she wanted to help young girls deal with what she termed "heartbreak-related depression,"[52] which term, it was noted, "does not currently exist as a clinically diagnosable form of depression."]]
00:39:22 <j-invariant> she's just an idiot, now she goes on to make depression even less respectable as a serious mental healht problem
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00:40:47 <fizzie> They had that public mass-suicide-by-homeopathy thing, http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php
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00:42:07 <elliott> Wait, I have another idea.
00:42:07 <j-invariant> all these fucking "cuts" everyone complains about, but the NHS still prescibes homepathy and ancient chinese "stick needles in the guy to heal him"
00:42:22 <elliott> yeah nhs support of homeopathy is fucked
00:42:38 <j-invariant> Great idea: aquapuncture - combination of the ancient chinese art (?) and homeopathy!
00:42:47 <j-invariant> I'll make a forture^H^H^H help lots of people!
00:42:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought the government basically said "no, it doesn't work, but we're still going to use it."
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00:43:47 <fizzie> Iridopuncture, aka needles-to-the-eye.
00:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that would probably cure you of pins and needles, not anything else.
00:45:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Broken foot? Dissolve someone else's foot in acid, then start diluting that.
00:45:26 <fizzie> (Remember to break it first, though.)
00:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Defend yourself against creepers! Bucket + gunpowder, then repeat 100 times!
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00:56:57 <elliott> I've had a sudden burst of reasonableness and found a USB stick
00:58:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can the world float?
01:03:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Who was the hippocampus?
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01:29:15 <elliott> "One of the arguments for functional programming is better modular design. By analyzing publications advocating this approach, in particular through the example of a framework for financial contracts, we assess is strengths and weaknesses, and compare it with object-oriented design. The overall conclusion is that object- oriented design, especially in a modern form supporting high-level routine objects or “agents”, subsumes the fu
01:29:15 <elliott> nctional approach, retaining its benefits while providing higher-level abstractions more supportive of extension and reuse."
01:29:23 <elliott> One of the arguments for functional programming is better modular design. By analyzing publications advocating this approach, in particular through the example of a framework for financial contracts, we assess is strengths and weaknesses, and compare it with object-oriented design. The overall conclusion is that object- oriented design, especially in a modern form supporting high-level routine objects or “agents”, subsumes the fun
01:29:23 <elliott> ctional approach, retaining its benefits while providing higher-level abstractions more supportive of extension and reuse.
01:29:25 <elliott> http://se.ethz.ch/~meyer/publications/functional/meyer_functional_oo.pdf
01:30:04 <elliott> "(We share the reader’s alarm at the unappetizing nature of the examples, especially coming from a Paris- based author. The sympathetic explanation is that the presentation was directed to a foreign audience of which it assumed, along with unfamiliarity with the metric system, barbaric culinary habits. The present discussion relies on the assumption that bad taste in desserts is not a sufficient predictor of bad taste in language an
01:30:05 <elliott> d architecture paradigms.)"
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01:48:42 <elliott> [[When people want to emphasize how pathetically far we are from proving P≠NP, they often use the following argument: for godsakes, we can’t even prove that NEXP-complete problems aren’t solvable by depth-3, polynomial-size circuits consisting entirely of mod 6 gates!
01:52:28 * oerjan wonders who "they" are :D
01:53:41 <elliott> oerjan: the set {Scott Aaronson} :D
01:54:24 <oerjan> so he uses the royal "then", i take?
01:55:24 <oerjan> a subtle megalomania mixing the styles of queen victoria and julius caesar
01:57:12 <elliott> bleh ... it seems you have to have a gpt thing to do usb w/ macbook air
01:57:18 <elliott> wonder if fedora's stuff would do it
01:58:10 * oerjan looks at the actual blog post and detects _possibly_ a tiny tinge of sarcasm there...
01:59:45 <ais523> elliott: I feel slightly wrong writing in a functional style in K&R C
02:00:01 <ais523> purely for the purpose of making a "record this, do something, put it back to the original value" wrapper nest easily
02:00:25 <elliott> ais523: I mean, K&R? And ...
02:00:25 <ais523> and as for K&R C, I was writing a hacked version of NetHack for RNG manipulation purposes
02:00:29 <ais523> and NetHack's written in K&R C
02:00:37 <elliott> ais523: protoize that shit for AceHack :P
02:00:39 <ais523> (it predates C89, so you can hardly blame it for that)
02:01:00 <ais523> I haven't done things like reindenting or protoizing so existing patches apply wel
02:01:20 <ais523> the indentation style's currently a mix of my two-space, and NetHack's four spaces for one level, tab for two levels
02:01:51 <elliott> ais523: not following an existing codebase's indentation style
02:01:58 <elliott> ais523: I'm afraid I'm going to have to kill you for the benefit of everyone.
02:02:00 <ais523> elliott: means I end up not mixing tabs and sapces?
02:02:05 <ais523> you can't have things both ways round
02:02:15 <elliott> ais523: at least keep the same indentation width
02:02:23 <elliott> (4, since they probably assume tab=8)
02:02:28 <ais523> yep, in some cases I've been interspersing eight spaces for two levels
02:02:47 <elliott> ais523: but don't do any two-spacing
02:02:51 <ais523> mostly because telling the editor to save mixed-tab-and-space, while entirely possible, would mean repeatedly changing it there and back
02:03:01 <elliott> time to try out this ubuntu usb stick again
02:03:11 <elliott> ais523: erm emacs can condition on the path of the file
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02:03:48 <ais523> (for the logs) I know, but that would be a pain to set up
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02:04:02 <ais523> as I have far too many NetHack source trees, in all sorts of places
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02:05:04 <ais523> hmm, why do places like BBC News always credit YouTube or Wikipedia rather than the actual author of the content?
02:05:07 <elliott> ais523: basically, as far as i can tell, the only way to boto from a usb stick is to have it gpt-partitioned
02:05:16 <fizzie> "Booting Windows or Linux from an external disk is not well-supported by Apple’s firmware. It may work for you, but if it does not work, there is nothing rEFIt can do about it."
02:05:17 <elliott> ais523: which can be done ... with a fedora specific, linux-only, RPM package
02:05:20 <fizzie> (Just saw that on a page.)
02:05:34 <elliott> - see if i can get that working here (endless unpredictable pain)
02:05:39 <ais523> you need a Linux-based program in order to install Linux?
02:05:41 <elliott> - £60 on external SuperDrive
02:05:55 <elliott> ais523: clearly! ubuntu has instructions for setting up a usb stick on a mac but they don't work and from what i'm reading, cannot possibly work
02:06:02 <ais523> hmm, what about running Fedora in a VM, and using that to reformat the stick?
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02:06:24 <elliott> ais523: that... sounds like it could rapidly become more than £60 worth of pain
02:06:26 <fizzie> Can't you partition it with just gdisk?
02:06:39 <elliott> fizzie: partitioning is easy -- getting the files on there and making it bootable, I have no idea ho
02:06:45 <elliott> apparently it has to be HFS-partitioned too
02:06:51 -!- coppro has joined.
02:06:54 <elliott> so regular bootloaders won't work?
02:07:05 <elliott> fizzie: Feel like making a USB stick image for me? :-P
02:07:12 <coppro> that was totally my fault
02:07:17 <elliott> All it'll require is alien, an Ubuntu ISO, and PATIENCE!
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02:07:29 <fizzie> I think I'll instead sleep on it. :p
02:07:45 <elliott> ais523: You're far too loyal not to help out, right?
02:09:19 <elliott> ais523: THAT IS NOT THE SOUND OF REASSURANCE
02:10:25 <elliott> ais523: re youtube/wikipedia
02:10:37 <elliott> ais523: because those seem like real, respectable businesses
02:12:11 <elliott> [[Steve Wozniak is an out and out self proclaimed geek. As the co-founder of Apple, he has given the world products aimed at making our life easier and more fun.]]
02:12:17 <elliott> I ... don't think Woz stayed on for very long, BBC
02:14:25 <elliott> it's got to be possible to do this
02:14:35 <Sgeo> elliott, is the last ep of season 1 good?
02:14:43 <elliott> Sgeo: Does it matter? You can't skip any.
02:14:49 <elliott> ais523: I don't suppose I can convince you to try and install one package and try out a command ...?
02:18:34 <Sgeo> Well, most of the good episodes were near the end of the season
02:20:31 <elliott> coppro: what about YOU, I can depend on you can't I
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02:24:45 <coppro> elliott: What assistance do ou need, citizen?
02:25:08 <elliott> coppro: one (1) .rpm converted to .deb and installed by you with the help of ``Alien'' conversion tool;
02:25:19 <elliott> coppro: and one (1) Ubuntu Live CD ISO downloaded;
02:25:29 <elliott> coppro: and one (1) conversion of this ISO to a disk image using that Linux-only tool
02:26:02 <coppro> knowledge of RED Hat is above your Clearance, citizen.
02:26:12 <coppro> Report for termination immediately.
02:26:15 <coppro> Thank you, and enjoy your day.
02:26:27 <elliott> coppro: DAMMIT I'MA GO INSANE
02:26:43 <elliott> can't even bother with references INSTALL THE PACKAGE ;_;
02:26:50 <coppro> why do you need your ISO converted?
02:26:58 <elliott> coppro: to install ubuntu.
02:27:44 <elliott> coppro: um, a computing machine?
02:27:52 <coppro> oh wait it's a usb stick image?
02:28:01 <elliott> coppro: no it's a live cd that you can turn into a usb stick image
02:28:02 <coppro> lol just stick a partition table in front of it
02:28:08 <elliott> coppro: yeah um it needs to be gpt
02:28:15 <elliott> and i have no idea what bootloader it installs
02:28:45 <elliott> coppro: there _is_ a reason I mentioned the .rpm, you know
02:28:49 <coppro> but also because you wouldn't do it for me
02:29:00 <elliott> i would actually if yelled at enough
02:29:03 <elliott> how much do i have to tell
02:29:20 <elliott> "livecd-iso-to-disk --mactel --reset-mbr foo.iso blah" NAG NAG NAG
02:29:29 <elliott> NAG NAG NAG NAG NAG NAG NAG
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02:49:33 <augur> elliott: sorry. ive been trying to fix my mbp screen
02:49:36 <augur> i broke the glass :(
02:49:46 <augur> and yet i followed the professional instructions!
02:51:18 <coppro> elliott: surely you have another computer with linux
02:51:27 <coppro> (that was a statement)
02:51:54 <elliott> coppro: I do, yes, but uh ... hmm.
02:52:03 <elliott> getting a friend to do it instead
02:56:07 <ais523> hmm, has thedailywtf's forum actually been patched to allow only haikus?
02:56:14 <ais523> as opposed to a mod doing it manually?
02:56:21 <ais523> (the sidebar forum, not the replies on the articles)
02:56:41 <ais523> well, not only haikus, but posts of approximate haiku length
02:56:56 <ais523> you can write a short plaintext sentence which has a similar length
02:57:09 <elliott> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/21032.aspx
02:57:20 <elliott> From henceforth, all messages posted that are not in the form of a Haiku will be deleted.
02:57:20 <elliott> You have been warned. Have a nice day.
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02:57:34 <elliott> ais523: seems like it's some kind of bug
02:57:46 <elliott> ais523: and then it was turned into a haiku rule
02:58:09 <ais523> CS has decided only to allow very short posts due to being broken
02:58:31 <ais523> and the mod's response was, instead of fixing the forum, to institute a "haiku rule" to patch around it
02:59:06 <ais523> now if there was only some website I could post on to report curious perversions in information technology...
02:59:15 <ais523> because that definitely qualifies
02:59:56 <elliott> ais523: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/21032/241597.aspx#241597
03:00:29 <ais523> <Daniel Bearsmore> You can now type more text into the subject line (255 UTF-16 characters by the looks of it) than you can in a post (~180 was it?)
03:00:41 <ais523> elliott: saw it already
03:01:21 <elliott> a horrible asp.net abomination
03:01:22 <ais523> a much-maligned forum that somehow got even worse
03:01:26 <elliott> the real wtf is the daily wtf
03:01:35 <elliott> seriously, why did it have to be alex that started it?
03:01:39 <elliott> he's so close to being the wtf himself
03:03:35 <elliott> ais523: is Username a mod?
03:03:42 <elliott> he has rather ...suspicious... stats
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03:32:47 <Sgeo> ais523, have you determined the exact allowable length yet?
03:52:26 <Sgeo> According to Star Trek, all aliens want human girls
03:52:35 <Sgeo> Or, human-looking girls
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03:58:30 <zzo38> I want to make up the new URI scheme for IRC, to get rid of problems with "IRC" scheme. The new one can be "IRCP" (for "Internet Relay Chat Protocol") and it accepts the username and password field, host, port, and so on. For example the URL for this channel would be: ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/join?%23esoteric
04:02:56 <zzo38> To represent the registration of this channel: ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/cs/info?%23esoteric
04:04:10 <zzo38> coppro: We don't sell that.
04:06:51 <Sgeo> Why would you have a password in a URI?
04:07:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: You probably wouldn't, but you could if you needed to. (Other URI schemes do support username/password) You might also include just the username.
04:10:54 <zzo38> ircp:// URIs shall be case-insensitive (except the password)
04:11:49 <coppro> it would make far more sense to call this channel ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/%23esoteric
04:12:32 <coppro> and for instance, its info would be ircp://irc.freenode.net:6667/%esoteric?info
04:12:58 <zzo38> coppro: I understand, but I don't like that much.
04:13:25 <coppro> it's certainly better than putting something dumb like chanserv in there
04:13:46 <zzo38> coppro: But it is the chanserv info, isn't it??
04:13:56 <coppro> but that info might not be provided by chanserv
04:14:13 <coppro> also you're making "cs" be a magic string there
04:14:27 <zzo38> coppro: But then the servers do not have a standard way of retrieving it, and it won't work.
04:14:36 <coppro> zzo38: yes, that's a difficulty
04:14:51 <coppro> zzo38: but you don't have a standard way of asking for "cs" info
04:15:55 <zzo38> coppro: Yes; the URL for the channel info would be secondary level specification, not a primary level; primary levels are the more standard ones. Secondary levels are used when the primary ones are insufficient.
04:16:33 <zzo38> (As if they are two separate RFCs or two separate chapters in one RFC, for example.)
04:18:12 <zzo38> Also, the channel type symbol (#&!+) must be URL encoded using % and hex code, except for ! which can be written as either "!" or "%21". The # & + MUST be written using "%23", "%26", "%2b", respectively.
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04:41:24 <zzo38> There is a command on this IRC server I didn't know, the CHANTRACE command.
04:43:13 <Sgeo> Just put ChanServ in the URI
04:43:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, no, that sucks
04:43:43 <Sgeo> ChanServ might not be the only thing gthat varies
04:43:50 <Sgeo> gVaries, now using glib
04:46:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is why I have specified that there is "primary level" and "secondary level".
05:21:45 <zzo38> What is a algorithm for calculating standard deviation (using integers only)?
05:37:58 <quintopia> that sounds difficult, considering the average of integers is not necessarily an integer...
05:38:37 <zzo38> quintopia: I could also just calculating fixed point using integers
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07:04:36 * Sgeo wants combat rations
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08:08:25 <variable> * chantrace :Outputs a list of members in #channel in ETRACE format, with the classname
08:08:25 <variable> * chantrace :replaced by the server the users are on.
08:12:01 <variable> Sgeo, you have a cloak on - right?
08:12:19 <Sgeo> variable, why?
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08:12:38 <variable> Sgeo, because I think I just found your IP
08:13:03 <variable> but I want to know if cloaks actually work
08:13:24 <Sgeo> variable, well, try finding the IP of someone who's cloaked.
08:14:04 <Sgeo> Unless it's possible to be cloaked without one's knowledge, I am not.
08:14:08 <Sgeo> What made you think I was?
08:15:00 <coppro> cloaks work if you identify before joining a channel
08:15:14 <coppro> I had one for a while myself
08:15:24 <variable> coppro, I know how it works - I misread something
08:15:25 <coppro> but now I have a hostname I'm not interested in cloaking
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08:16:16 <coppro> damn you, grad courses
08:17:39 <coppro> variable: there's a course on logic next term I may sit in on
08:18:05 <coppro> it's called "logic for comp. sci." by the registrar
08:18:11 <coppro> which leaves me guessing as to what it actually is
08:18:35 <variable> my favorite subject is logic :-}
08:19:11 <coppro> but if it's anything like the previous logic course taught by the same prof (Advanced Logic in Computer Science) 5 terms ago, then it may be worth trying to maneuver my way around the dumb undergrad course
08:23:01 <coppro> I'm not sure how far above my head it starts
08:23:22 <coppro> but if it isn't too far, I would definitely love to take a real logic course rather than the blargh undergrad one
08:23:46 <coppro> (provided, also, that I can convince necessary people that it is a good idea for me to replace the mandatory undergrad course with the grad one)
08:24:17 <variable> coppro, worst case just audit the class
08:29:26 <coppro> variable: if I can find the time, sure
08:29:38 <coppro> and/or if I can follow along
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10:19:20 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: that... sounds like it could rapidly become more than £60 worth of pain <-- (for logs): why £60 specifically?
10:39:03 <Gregor> My parents insist that I never stopped talking since I was nine months old, but this video tape of me at my first birthday has a distinctive lack of any meaningful vocalizations :P
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12:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> That would have been a lot better if it hadn't had my name in the whois.
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12:45:24 <zzo38> I wanted to make the "plain.cards" file and "texnicard_format.tex" file also available in the book, so I wrote a program in AWK.
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12:45:47 <zzo38> I don't think I have written a program in AWK before.
12:47:16 <zzo38> It works; but maybe I have done something 'improper' by not knowing programming with AWK, before. I don't know.
12:49:06 -!- zzo38 has set topic: nice stuff at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | retards at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical documents at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or via hg at http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
12:49:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: turds at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | turds at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical turds at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or via hg at http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
12:50:32 -!- zzo38 has set topic: TURDS at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | TURDS at voxelperfect.net have expired | historical TURDS at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or via hg at http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
12:54:15 <zzo38> Is this considered a 'proper' program in AWK, or is there some things which I have done badly and could be improvement? http://sprunge.us/eLcc
13:02:50 <nooga> why is SPARC system programming is soo undocumented
13:03:13 <zzo38> nooga: I don't know. Are you trying to write a program?
13:33:11 <Vorpal> nooga, hm, how does SPARC deal with the register window thing when it comes to running out of registers. That is: what happens when call stack gets too deep?
13:33:41 <nooga> i don't know because i can't find the goddamn docs
13:33:57 <nooga> something like intel's manual
13:34:37 <Vorpal> I was wondering if it was handled by the hardware itself or if it invoked an exception handler which had to deal with it
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13:40:45 <Vorpal> going to reboot for kernel upgrade on the computer running this irc bouncer
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13:49:27 * Sgeo wonders if it may be worth it to wipe out Ubuntu and just use Tinycore for his Linux needs
13:53:27 <fizzie> IIRC running out of register window "depth" generates an exception, and then an OS exception handler will do some stack-pushery.
13:54:48 <fizzie> nooga: http://developers.sun.com/solaris/articles/sparcv9.pdf not good enough for your purposes?
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14:06:52 <nooga> fizzie: lol, i'm stupid
14:07:04 <nooga> i found that earlier and forgot that i have it :G
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14:43:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: "An overflow [of the register windows] causes a spill trap that allows privileged software [read: the OS] to save the occupied register window in memory, thereby making it available for use."
14:50:17 <zzo38> What are algorithms for calculating such things as standard deviation, etc?
14:54:56 <oerjan> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation#Rapid_calculation_methods
14:58:04 <fizzie> That's a bit of a misleading title there, since it seems more about doing a running standard deviation; for the std of a particular n-point data set, I don't think there's typically anything much more cleverer than the straight-forward O(n) just-you-know-calculate-it thing.
14:59:32 <zzo38> The algorithm described there should work.
15:00:07 <zzo38> How large do you expect $s_2$ to become in case of a large set of cards?
15:01:17 <oerjan> fizzie: well the clever thing about it afaik is that you can calculate it in one pass...
15:01:51 <oerjan> zzo38: well it should be less than N times the square of your maximal value...
15:02:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, yes, that is what I was alluding to with the "running" part.
15:02:13 <oerjan> (this is of course rather trivial)
15:03:14 <fizzie> Anyhoo, quite often doing two passes is not a problem either.
15:03:34 <fizzie> The see-also "computing variance" article is a bit more comprehensive.
15:14:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably there is some trap when going the other way too? (In order to unspill when required)
15:15:11 <fizzie> Yes, there's a "window underflow" trap too.
15:17:12 <fizzie> (And there are some complications because the OS needs to make sure one process can't manage to peek into the register windows of another process.)
15:17:22 <nooga> fizzie: you seem to know SPARCs pretty well
15:18:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... You mean like, store/restore windows on context switch?
15:19:05 <Vorpal> if so, not sure how much it differs from normal storing/restoring of registers on other platforms (such as x86)
15:19:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: It doesn't need to, because there are separate registers to mark some register windows belonging to "current process" and others to "other", and separate traps for those.
15:19:40 <fizzie> nooga: Not really, I've just read a bit back when doing our compiler course, which had a sparc backend.
15:19:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, but what if you have three processes?
15:20:17 <fizzie> Then you'd have to manually keep track, but there's still some windows "owned" by the current one, and some by the others.
15:21:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, so the OS will spill/unspill as required then?
15:22:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, how much does this enforce a specific calling convention btw? I remember reading that (on x86/x86-64 at least) GHC uses a custom calling convention.
15:22:41 <fizzie> Something like that. As far as I can determine, the idea is that if the current process only uses K register windows, you don't need to spill/fill the N-K unused ones.
15:23:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but if it uses all N then this would mean more switches to kernel mode?
15:23:43 <Vorpal> which are usually slow on most architectures
15:25:03 <fizzie> I don't know about the tradeoffs, but there probably is one, yes. You could even have the OS maintain some sort of a per-process guesswork as to how many "clean" register windows it's going to prepare in advance on a context switch.
15:25:04 <zzo38> Is there an algorithm that works better to calculate it if the sample values are already sorted low to high?
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15:26:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw did I mention that mcmap bug? If you place a torch high up (about altitude 120 or above) you get a garbled mess on the map in a block around that area. Garbled both on normal map and on topo map.
15:26:25 <zzo38> (I don't think there is, but if you know of it, tell me)
15:26:52 <Vorpal> zzo38, better than what?
15:27:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I saw that, though I already managed to forget it.
15:27:08 <Vorpal> zzo38, and to calculate what?
15:27:50 <fizzie> Standard deviation, I assume.
15:27:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, if you happen to have time to test it...
15:28:58 <fizzie> See, if you had written this in the github issue list, I wouldn't have managed to forget it. I'll try to take a look at some point. It's probably related to the "max-alt trees cause flickering map-garbage" thing I saw on my local server tests.
15:29:56 <zzo38> I know since it is sorted, it can easily calculate minimum, maximum, median.
15:33:07 <zzo38> Which other statistics would be useful for a set of cards (such as for Magic: the Gathering and similar games)?
15:35:13 <fizzie> Histograms of different categorizations? (I seem to recall MtG cards can be grouped into lands/creatures/instants/whatevers.)
15:36:06 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, the category by card type.
15:36:57 <zzo38> I can do like that, I already have grouping.
15:37:49 <zzo38> Another question, about notation: if $Q_2$ is median, does $Q_0$ mean the minimum?
15:38:46 <zzo38> From Wikipedia: "The 25th percentile is also known as the first quartile (Q1); the 50th percentile as the median or second quartile (Q2); the 75th percentile as the third quartile (Q3)."
15:39:21 <zzo38> It doesn't mention $Q_0$ or $Q_4$ (or $Q_5$, but that doesn't make sense).
15:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, so Q_0 and Q_4 could easily be read as the maxima and minima, but they're never actually defined.
15:41:00 <zzo38> I could just add a note next to the equation that explains this notation.
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15:42:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Based on a quick source-glance, I don't seem to be verifying the y values in world.c:block_change, and an overflow there could possibly ruin both the heightmap and the surface map. I'll take a closer look later.
15:43:00 <fizzie> (I want to see what sort of numbers the server sends before blindly fixing that.)
15:44:30 <Phantom_Hoover> More tales of my adventures in the maths class: when I pointed out that the teacher's proclamation that f''(x)=0 at a point said nothing about its nature, I was told to shut up.
15:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The class being taught this were then informed that such a function would never come up, even after I pointed out that x^4 is clearly an example.
15:46:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you must be SO POPULAR
15:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I am actually banned from setting foot in the maths department.
15:48:03 <elliott> You might mess up the dangerous maths experiments.
15:49:24 <fizzie> Mathemagical monsters: http://deltafunktio.animeunioni.org/dft_eka_osa.gif (Disclaimer: you... uh, might have to be able to read Finnish to understand any of that.)
15:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> "Safety: the natural logarithm is an irritant and should be washed away if it comes into contact with the skin."
15:50:30 <elliott> fizzie: I think it's better without.
15:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, are the Finnish words for "oxygen" and "vulva" really only a letter apart?
15:55:35 <elliott> Both are required breathing for continued existence.
15:58:57 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think so. But the words for "vulva" and "cone" (as in "pine cone", not as in "geometric shape") are.
16:00:01 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: As are the words for "oxygen" and a very colloquial term for the penis.
16:01:21 <fizzie> ("häpy", "käpy" and "happi", "heppi", respecitvely.)
16:02:06 <oerjan> i take it finns are fond of happiness
16:02:13 <fizzie> There's more than a single-letter difference between häpy/happi, though.
16:02:24 <fizzie> They *are* quite close, I guess.
16:02:38 <elliott> Häpy heppi, heppi käppy. Käppy happi, happi häpy.
16:02:50 <elliott> Häpy heppi, heppi käpy. Käpy happi, happi häpy.
16:04:00 <Deewiant> Sharing consonants does not two words alike make.
16:04:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, consonants and similar phonetic properties if you don't know Finnish orthography!
16:04:52 <fizzie> We have several words where the double-consonant (or a double-wovel) makes a semantic difference. Like "taka" → "takka" → "taakka"; "back" (mostly as a prefix, like "takapuoli" = "backside") → "fireplace" → "burden".
16:05:39 <fizzie> Well, it's a stop consonant, only longer-duration one.
16:06:25 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Why couldn't you?
16:06:41 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_consonant#Length
16:06:45 <olsner> english has a few double-consonants too
16:06:58 <elliott> fizzie: Can you prove that Finnish isn't just a gigantic prank on the rest of the world?
16:07:10 <Deewiant> Can you prove that English isn't?
16:07:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Maybe it is, but if it is, it's a lot less funny than Finnish
16:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, it's more what you get when you take about 3 languages and mush them together without thinking.
16:08:10 <elliott> English is like "A man walks into a bar. He is an alcoholic and it's destroying his family."
16:08:44 <oerjan> `translatefromto en fi A man walks into a bar. He is an alcoholic and it's destroying his family.
16:08:53 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL21sCWfnbE&t=1m8s "tuki" vs "tukki"
16:09:01 <HackEgo> Mies kävelee baariin. Hän on alkoholisti ja se tuhoaa hänen perheensä.
16:09:30 <Deewiant> (Disclaimer: I don't know if the guy knows what he's talking about, I just searched for an example)
16:11:32 <zzo38> The <math> mode in Wikipedia is different from TeX; it has some commands that TeX doesn't and TeX has many commands that Wikipedia doesn't. Most equations probably works, though.
16:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is a long stop just one in which you wait for a bit before removing the obstruction from the airway?
16:12:49 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Does LaTeX not have any \def command?
16:13:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No -- zzo38 just hates it.
16:13:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think LaTeX is great.
16:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there *is* nothing that doesn't suck in zzo's world, unless he made it himself.
16:14:54 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't that just what the Wikipedia link I pointed at says: "In a geminate or long stop, the occlusion lasts longer than in normal stops. In languages where stops are only distinguished by length (e.g. Arabic, Ilwana, Icelandic), the long stops may last up to three times as long as the short stops."
16:15:41 <fizzie> Oh, I thought you were trying to describe what Deewiant's video was like.
16:15:46 <Phantom_Hoover> But phonetic language confuses me, not least because "stop" and "plosive" both seem to mean the same thing for no readily apparent reason.
16:16:03 <zzo38> (I find Plain TeX easier to understand and use; but there are some things I don't like in TeX and some things which I think are missing. In general it is good, though.)
16:16:11 <Phantom_Hoover> That guy was going on about glottal stops, so I suspect he may have no idea what he's talking about.
16:16:15 <fizzie> However, "ex-stop" and "explosive" are a very different thing.
16:16:25 <Vorpal> elliott, Swedish has double consonants too. With different effects on the pronunciation than for Finnish though. And sometimes with semantic differences. (For example sil = sieve, sill = herring)
16:17:12 <zzo38> Vorpal: What kind of effect, do you have to pronounce it longer?
16:17:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, it modifies the preceding vowel.
16:18:41 <fizzie> For Finnish it'd just be mostly a lenghtening. Compare "hila" (wicket/grate/grid) and "hilla" (cloudberry).
16:19:07 <Vorpal> elliott, as I said yes
16:19:18 <elliott> You are probably not lying entirely!
16:19:29 <fizzie> Our phonology is a bit on the simplistic side.
16:20:08 <fizzie> Ooh, Wikipedia has examples, I don't need to invent any:
16:20:09 <fizzie> tuli = fire, tuuli = wind, tulli = customs
16:20:09 <fizzie> muta = mud, muuta = other (partitive sg.), mutta = but, muuttaa = to change or to move
16:20:12 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_phonology#Length
16:20:42 <Vorpal> in Swedish the word "hade" (meaning "had") is pronounced as if it had been written like "hadde" btw.
16:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <olsner> english has a few double-consonants too ← not any with syntactic meaning AFAIK.
16:21:28 <Vorpal> <fizzie> tuli = fire, tuuli = wind, tulli = customs <-- the last meaning I wound suspect is imported from Swedish, since sv:tull = en:customs. Either that or a common source for both.
16:21:42 <Vorpal> well, not meaning. Word
16:22:17 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I mean double consonants that are pronounced longer
16:22:55 <olsner> I think it's mostly when combining a word that ends with the same consonant the other word starts with
16:23:44 <Vorpal> and then Swedish has the fun word pairs like tomten/tomten, anden/anden and so on. (Same spelling, different pronunciation for different meanings. VERY subtle differences.)
16:24:14 <Vorpal> (isn't it just a change in stress or whatever it is called?)
16:24:45 <olsner> in those examples, it's tonal differences rather than stress
16:25:20 <Vorpal> olsner, are there such examples with change of stress then?
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16:27:54 <fizzie> [Of Finnish:] "Thus, omenanani "as my apple" contains light syllables only, and has primary stress on the first syllable and secondary on the third, as expected. In omenanamme "as our apple", on the other hand, the third syllable (na) is light and the fourth heavy (nam), thus secondary stress falls on the fourth syllable. --" Nice example words there.
16:28:35 <olsner> Vorpal: I think stress is what happens with our double consonants
16:28:52 <Vorpal> olsner, ah, but no cases with same spelling then?
16:29:00 <fizzie> Also, "omenanamme" = "as our apple", "omenan amme" = "apple's bathtub".
16:29:14 <olsner> Vorpal: not that I can think of, but there probably are
16:32:28 <fizzie> Here's (in Finnish) two words that are spelled identically, but the stress differs: "-- for example the compound puunaama, meaning "wooden face" (from puu "tree" and naama "face"), is pronounced [ˈpuː-ˌnɑː-mɑ] but puunaama, meaning "which was cleaned" (...preceded by an agent in genitive, "by someone"), is pronounced [ˈpuː-nɑː-mɑ]."
16:33:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, "[...](...preceded by an agent in genitive, "by someone")[...]" <-- a cleaning agent?
16:33:52 <fizzie> Unfortunately the stress-indicating bold font parts got lost.
16:34:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the channels filter bold I think
16:34:31 <fizzie> That should've been [*ˈpuː-ˌnɑː*-mɑ] vs. [*ˈpuː*-nɑː-mɑ].
16:38:02 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, not as bad as the English words which are spelt identically but pronounced differently.
16:39:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, such as?
16:39:28 <Vorpal> I can't think of any example atl
16:40:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Which are both because "ea" can be pronounced 'eh' or 'ee'.
16:41:20 <Vorpal> hm, Does any other language have the sje-sound of Swedish? I seem to remember reading it was unique
16:41:49 <Vorpal> well, Finland-Swedish (or whatever the English name of it is) has it obviously
16:41:59 <Ilari> Hmm... I wonder if fan #3 in this computer just doesn't have speed measurements available or why does lm-sensors say "0 RPM ALARM" about it...
16:42:47 <Vorpal> Ilari, open case to check. I know that in my computer it is due to not having a case fan. (only CPU fan, PSU fan and GPU fan, and sensors only report about the CPU fan)
16:42:53 <olsner> Vorpal: does it though? some dialects has it as sh, seem to recall finland-swedish doing that too
16:43:11 <Vorpal> olsner, they have a different variant of it, that's true.
16:44:55 <Vorpal> olsner, hm arguably the sje-sound in kjol and stjärna are slightly different. At least in whatever dialectal mix I speak.
16:45:13 <olsner> kjol doesn't have a sje-sound
16:45:23 <Vorpal> olsner, what do you call that sound then?
16:46:50 <zzo38> Today I learned AWK programming.
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16:47:09 <Deewiant> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sje-sound#Colognian
16:48:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Whether or not there is a relation between the Swedish /ɧ/, and the Kölsch /ɧ/, is not known. While none seems to have been established, comments (e.g. on page 18 in [3]) suggest that, the choice of ‹ɧ› might well have been based upon a misunderstanding."
16:48:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, does that text say they are different or the same. It seems to discuss that but I'm not good at linguistics.
16:48:33 <Vorpal> (basically I got lost in the jargon)
16:48:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: This is what you get when you let languages go all natural.
16:48:54 <Deewiant> fizzie: I know, I didn't say that it was in another language, I just linked it
16:50:05 <olsner> Vorpal: I would call it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_postalveolar_fricative but wikipedia claims swedish kjol has a different sound
16:50:42 <olsner> namely, this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_fricative
16:51:24 <Vorpal> olsner, also stjärna vs. sju. A quick experiment seems to indicate the position in the mouth of the sje-sound in those two words is somewhat different.
16:51:27 <fizzie> As a speech recognition guy, I think I'll petition the World Government (in our inevitable dystopic future) to instigate a "designed to be phonologically as simple as possible to distinguish" language instead. Maybe with just two (or very few) as-spectrally-different-as-possible sounds, and then all words are simple concatenations of those with none of this context-sensitive crap.
16:52:27 <elliott> fizzie: I propose mindlinks.
16:52:28 <olsner> Vorpal: yeah, it merges with the vowel a bit, dunno if it's enough of a difference to call it different sounds
16:58:14 <fizzie> I've heard in a few places that this is the ugliest Finnish sentence(-pair) evar: "Älä rääkkää sitä kääkkää! En rääkkääkään!". (Translated, vaguely like: Don't torture that old guy! I'm not!)
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17:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, you seem to have connection problems today?
17:00:28 <elliott> Vorpal: um i think i've gone offline exactly twice?
17:00:44 <elliott> can his nick stop shouting
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17:09:36 <elliott> http://userweb.kernel.org/~warthog9/april1/2010/ please tell me kernel.org actually looked like this on apr 1
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17:24:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the upside-down K is the height of stupidity.
17:26:05 <nooga> http://www.complexitygraphics.com/#708027/-About-Contact <3
17:27:49 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Graduated from Moscow State University in Social Psychology, and then studied in High Academic School of Graphic Design. ]]
17:28:09 <elliott> her knees are too angular anyway!
17:29:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I never realised that the Oolite theme gets way better if you wait a bit.
17:29:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Define theme.
17:31:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: guy in #anagol just said php is better than haskell
17:32:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: nothing else was said
17:32:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well at least tell them that they're an idiot!
17:33:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://sprunge.us/YTNc
17:33:24 <elliott> 17:31 Endres: um, but I think for me it is so
17:33:24 <elliott> 17:32 Endres: maybe not better, but... easier maybe?
17:33:35 <elliott> not even gonna bother arguing ... 'specially since obvs not a native
17:34:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think it was technically basic that i never tried to understand and just copied from a book
17:34:26 <nooga> PHP should be evaporated together with every dedicated PHP programmer
17:34:31 <elliott> but um, pretty much php, yeah
17:34:57 <elliott> no, i chose to learn it myself
17:35:01 <nooga> i was 10 when i tried Pascal, don't worry elliott
17:35:07 <elliott> after learning that $favourite_website was written in PHP
17:35:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i used odbc to communicate with an Access database in PHP
17:35:42 <elliott> I need some alcohol to forget that now
17:35:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: this was before ubuntu even existed
17:36:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also we had a winmodem
17:36:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Followed soon by Python, then about a week later by CL.
17:36:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You are the luckiest bastard. Seriously.
17:37:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, Pascal is kind of shit, but it's not a /hideous/ language.
17:37:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Python is lame but really, it's not _that_ bad.
17:37:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And then Common Lisp which is pretty damn good.
17:37:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I stayed with PHP for about _two years_.
17:37:51 <elliott> Do you have *any* idea how warped my grey matter became?
17:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it was when you were asked to conceive and implement a sort algorithm by yourself.
17:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> With a teacher who as far as I know was a Latin teacher who later became the computing teacher.
17:38:23 <elliott> I had no idea why you would ever abstract anything. No idea how to modularise code.
17:38:32 <elliott> No idea that mixing code and, you know, output was in any way sub-optimal.
17:38:54 <variable> elliott, that is indicative of bad PHP coding - not necc. the language itself
17:39:06 <variable> although I will say that most PHP examples are HORRIBLE
17:39:10 <elliott> variable: Perhaps. But PHP certainly lends itself to bad coding style.
17:39:11 <nooga> elliott: don't worry
17:39:14 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, yes, but when the language is definitely not conducive to that style...
17:39:18 <elliott> variable: And even when it's coded perfectly, it's still a horrible language.
17:39:36 <variable> elliott, it is not horrible for its purpose
17:39:58 <nooga> uhmit is horrrible for every purpose
17:40:11 <nooga> i code php for *cough* money
17:40:16 <elliott> As someone who stayed in the awful confines of web development for too many years, let me say that yes, it is. Absolutely horrible.
17:40:18 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, I actually got my self-conceived sort algorithm off the ground when I used CL.
17:40:30 <elliott> Hell, if you want to, I don't know, put the current date and time on a page. Even Perl is better.
17:40:51 <Phantom_Hoover> But I gave up on doing it in Pascal when noöne could work out how the hell you got a function to return an array.
17:41:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think you can even do that
17:41:29 <elliott> variable: http://catseye.tc/about/php.html
17:41:46 <elliott> The fourth paragraph of that is perhaps my favourite thing ever.
17:41:54 <Phantom_Hoover> He basically told me to either use globals or alter the array passed to it.
17:42:05 <elliott> Already Phantom_Hoover knew the putrid stench of mutability!
17:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, at that point I thought "forget that", then did it in Python and then CL. Of course, I mutated the array passed for those programs, too, but I was what, 13?
17:43:36 <elliott> I like how you're apologising for not being a rabid functional weenie by 13.
17:43:39 <nooga> i feel that i need to design a language that is extendable and elastic like scheme, concise like ruby or something and has a compiler that generates fast machine code
17:43:47 <nooga> i will code only in this language
17:43:55 <elliott> nooga: And is purely functional?
17:44:09 <nooga> elliott: not Haskell
17:44:17 <elliott> nooga: There are purely-functional languages that are not Haskell.
17:44:40 <nooga> i like mixed paradigm languages, like ruby
17:44:57 <elliott> nooga: Irrelevant; answer the question: mutable data?
17:45:34 <nooga> immutable = useless
17:45:53 <nooga> I LIKE to mess with arrays in-place
17:46:08 <elliott> It amazes me how people still think, in 2010, that they should create a language that practically actively works against a programmer.
17:46:23 <elliott> Apparently the world has not yet learned that you don't put in "features" merely because they're easy to implement at the lower level.
17:46:30 <elliott> Otherwise you throw away abstraction.
17:47:17 <nooga> i know haskell is awesome and it's compiler is a piece of art
17:47:39 <elliott> clearly you have never seen ghc code
17:47:44 <elliott> nobody gives a shit what the compiler looks like
17:47:55 <elliott> anyway i don't even like haskell all that much, it has many flaws, but that's irrelevant
17:48:03 <elliott> the fact is that mutability is a serious, crippling design flaw
17:48:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's not Epigram.
17:48:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Typeclasses are restricted in probably-unavoidable ways but I don't like them anyway; no module system (a la ML, with functors (not that kind of functor); this is VERY important for abstraction and reuse)
17:49:00 <nooga> and i like to have more expressive C with poorman's, basic oo, closures and ability to mess with the language itself
17:49:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and the fact that I don't like the IO monad
17:49:11 <elliott> also, records with named fields are handled badly
17:49:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's imperative.
17:49:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you disagree, see http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/
17:50:11 <nooga> it's funny that ppl try to make languages that work AGAINST common sense and our machines architecture
17:50:33 <elliott> nooga: Programs are for humans first; machines second. P.S. That machines are imperative is a mistake of history.
17:50:38 <elliott> See http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/.
17:50:55 <elliott> nooga: And "common sense" is a term people use when they wish to portray an opinion as immediately obvious, without giving any logical reasoning to this.
17:50:59 <nooga> if we had purely functional machines it would be sooo cooool
17:51:28 <nooga> MIPS, x86, eeee, SPARC.... eee
17:51:41 <elliott> nooga: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
17:51:51 <nooga> but nobody uses it!
17:51:55 <elliott> nooga: if we had OS X and Linux it would be soo cooool
17:52:01 <elliott> nooga: but we don't, because 90% of people use Windows!
17:52:06 <elliott> too bad OS X and Linux don't exist
17:52:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (but that question isn't really relevant; you do not have to suggest something better to hold the opinion that something is bad)
17:52:52 <j-invariant> 17:50 < elliott> nooga: Programs are for humans first; machines second. P.S.
17:53:09 <elliott> j-invariant: almost direct sicp quote :) or was it R5RS... whatever
17:53:13 <elliott> it's true wherever it came from
17:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but the fact that there seems to be no viable alternative makes complaining rather pointless.
17:53:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and that's sort of like dismissing the inventors of ${first purely functional language} because "Well, you haven't offered any replacements for ALGOL constructs like 'while'!"
17:54:15 <elliott> It _is_ relevant to complain that an existing solution is bad; innovation has to handle the rest.
17:54:31 <elliott> j-invariant: are those Cs typo?
17:55:54 <elliott> j-invariant: Some syntax tweaks. Make named fields in records be handled much better (make them proper accessor objects, there are a bunch of things on hackage that do good-looking things for this); ditch IO monad replace with FRP integrate into my perfect OS :-P (you can't really do any of this perfectly in an imperative OS); get rid of typeclasses, replace them, and the "module" system, with a proper ML-style module system with modu
17:55:54 <elliott> le functors and the like -- also maybe some ideas from Ur in this area -- ...
17:55:57 <elliott> j-invariant: make it epigram ...
17:56:04 <elliott> j-invariant: ... and then make it epigram some more
17:58:20 <elliott> j-invariant: also: redo the whole stdlib
17:58:31 <elliott> j-invariant: proper numeric typeclasses (except, module signatures now, not typeclasses!)
17:58:47 <elliott> j-invariant: maybe if you don't want a useful language :)
17:58:51 <elliott> j-invariant: fine in Coq, not for Haskell ...
17:59:18 <j-invariant> The first thing I do in Coq is turn off the massive stdlib and bootstrap my own tools :P
17:59:32 <elliott> j-invariant: that's just because coq's stdlib is really shitty
17:59:40 <elliott> j-invariant: and also because you presumably don't write actually useful Haskell programs ;) no offence
17:59:42 <nooga> HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WRITE ANYTHING WITHOUT IO THAT CAN BE SYNCED WITH OTHER SYSTEMS
17:59:55 <elliott> nooga: i don't give a shit about your needs/wants :)
18:00:04 <elliott> in @ it all works out perfectly of course.
18:00:14 <nooga> how do you imagine purely functional OS
18:00:27 <j-invariant> elliott: I mean you should still be able to do "import Numbers" or whatever it is you want
18:00:43 <j-invariant> elliott: but all this e.g. "Num" crap shouldn't be imported to all programs automatically
18:00:45 <elliott> j-invariant: I think it's useful to have a decent base built in... no point starting with a lot of useless import declarations
18:00:50 <elliott> j-invariant: Num is crap, but if it were better designed ...
18:01:07 <j-invariant> elliott: I don't think language designers are capable of making a good stdlib
18:01:28 <elliott> j-invariant: as a language designer I think they are :) but i guess you could call me a language designer and a library designer
18:01:35 <j-invariant> also the evolution of the language is at a different pace than that of the stdlib
18:01:58 <elliott> @ updates are almost as likely to update the language as the core stdlib, I'd say
18:02:37 <elliott> @ is a macro expanding to whatever the final name of @ has.
18:03:26 <nooga> does it have a homepage?
18:03:37 <elliott> no, it has no need of one.
18:03:41 <elliott> the channel logs are an okay start.
18:04:05 <nooga> nonexistant, useless
18:04:23 <elliott> nooga: I don't care about your needs/wants.
18:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but tonnes of the discussion was in private queries!
18:05:18 <elliott> hmm, @ has the deficiency of being hard to grep
18:05:41 <elliott> 10.09.19:07:41:54 <nooga> alise: start writing aliseOS plz
18:05:45 <elliott> But I thought it was *useless*.
18:08:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i hire you to work on it
18:10:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: don't use dice then
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18:13:53 <j-invariant> elliott: what about Idirs http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/
18:14:22 <elliott> j-invariant: i know of idris yeah it seems kinda cool but i'm not convinced that full dependent types are a good thing in practice
18:14:47 <elliott> j-invariant: something like Ur/Web where you could write the /Web part yourself (i.e. code in all those static checks) -- that might be good -- it seems to have like 75% of what you'd want of dependent types in practice
18:14:54 <elliott> but is more, you know, decidable :)
18:14:58 <elliott> j-invariant: nonono i love dependent types
18:15:04 <elliott> j-invariant: for theorem proving and formal verification and shit
18:15:17 <elliott> j-invariant: i just think a 75% + stuff solution might be best for everything else
18:15:33 <j-invariant> elliott: even to use something as simple as quotient types, I think you need full blown theorem proving
18:15:46 <elliott> j-invariant: are quotient types that useful outside of theorem proving?
18:17:18 <elliott> either j-invariant is having a worldview breakdown or has shunned me
18:20:15 <oerjan> actually you killed the whole channel *sputter, argh*
18:27:44 <j-invariant> module Z (inject, (+), (*)) where type Z = (N,N) ; inject :: N -> Z ...
18:28:01 <elliott> j-invariant: what's that from
18:28:26 <j-invariant> uh it was meant to be haskell but now that I write it i'm not sure if it means what I wanted it to
18:28:38 <elliott> j-invariant: are you trying to demonstrate ML modules or?
18:28:39 <nooga> http://wronki.pl has AD 2011 bug :F
18:28:41 <elliott> or are you just asking a really vague question
18:28:48 <elliott> j-invariant: nono i want to understand
18:29:07 <j-invariant> elliott: you can define integers as a quotient on pairs of natural numbers (you know that?)
18:29:21 <elliott> ifeq ($(shell expr "$(uname_R)" : '[15678]\.'),2)
18:29:21 <elliott> OLD_ICONV = UnfortunatelyYes
18:29:42 <elliott> j-invariant: well the Works But Kind Of Horrible solution here is obvious
18:29:42 <j-invariant> elliott: so in haskell you might well use this approach, not exporting the definition of Z but exporting functions to work with it
18:29:45 <elliott> j-invariant: just define your own (==)
18:29:59 <j-invariant> then MyModule imports that, uses the functions with Z to its hearts content and all is well
18:30:47 <j-invariant> by all is well, I mean that every function MyModule can define respects the equivalence relation
18:32:38 <elliott> well Coq's knowledge of modules is limited i think
18:32:53 <j-invariant> oh wait a second, it might be possible to prove this in Coq
18:33:22 <j-invariant> if you implement a non-quotient version of Z and make a map between that and the quotient version
18:35:00 <nooga> boring boring boring
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18:38:37 <elliott> j-invariant: have you ever looked at Clean?
18:44:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does this mean? 18:56:48 [DIED] world.c: 108: broken decompressed chunk length: 49 != 50
18:44:30 <elliott> chunk was meant to be X long, it was Y. i would presume.
18:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Vorpal, fizzie, Deewiant, has anything actually been done on the MC server?
18:44:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: since when
18:46:37 <elliott> fizzie: can i rewrite mcmap in ML or something
18:50:16 <Vorpal> elliott, won't that have a lot of overhead if your system is already having some problem with running both minecraft and mcmap at once?
18:50:28 <elliott> Vorpal: not if I compiled it with MLton :)
18:50:55 <Vorpal> elliott, what is MLton?
18:51:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm is it really that good?
18:52:06 <elliott> not like mcmap is hugely resource-intensive or hugely speed-needing
18:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, true, I was thinking of memory overhead
18:53:04 <Vorpal> elliott, which is the problem for me with minecraft alone
18:53:23 <elliott> well, these sorts of compilers usually try and unbox everything.
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18:54:13 <Vorpal> how well does it manage though
18:54:47 <elliott> It's not like unboxing is hard.
18:55:00 * Zuu unboxes elliott
18:57:21 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, I think we should try proper survival multiplayer.
18:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott killing Vorpal every 10 seconds by "accident" would be rather amusing.
18:58:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When the SMP server was up, I killed ineiros and got 64 mob spawners
18:58:17 <elliott> Alas, they spawned only pigs.
18:58:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, for something like a day.
18:58:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal is too pussy to go on though. He'd just sit on IRC crying about his house.
18:59:00 <elliott> (Side note - if we do - it must be on the same map.)
19:02:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: It means the zlib truncation bug I tweeted (but Notch ignored) has actually resulted in an incomplete chunk update.
19:02:59 <elliott> fizzie: Notch, fix actual bugs?
19:03:04 <elliott> Hahahahahahahahaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha
19:03:17 <elliott> Too busy getting internet fellatio from Twitter.
19:03:46 <fizzie> I may fix it to ignore those too, as long as the truncation affects only the light values, which I ignore.
19:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Vorpal: It means the zlib truncation bug I tweeted (but Notch ignored) has actually resulted in an incomplete chunk update. ← what are you responding to?
19:04:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: <Vorpal> fizzie, what does this mean? 18:56:48 [DIED] world.c: 108: broken decompressed chunk length: 49 != 50
19:07:18 <elliott> j-invariant: have you finished epigram yet
19:07:40 <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, there's a bug which will crash any server whatsoever and can be done with effectively no privileges.
19:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm not saying what it is, and noöne else who knows should either.
19:08:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover killed a server with 1,000 people on it permanently once with that bug. True story!*
19:09:03 <olsner> true for very false values of 'true'
19:16:15 <nooga> reimplement minecraft
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19:20:27 <elliott> j-invariant: well get crackin'!
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19:20:56 <j-invariant> elliott: if I have an isomorphism between M and M', then why don't I have an isomorphism between F(M) and F(M')?
19:21:12 <elliott> j-invariant: Because Coq is stupid.
19:21:25 <elliott> j-invariant: Epigram has everything! Including kittens! Nah, I don't actaully know.
19:21:41 <j-invariant> elliott: if I could get an isomorphism between F(M) and F(M') I could have something like useful quotients
19:22:08 <elliott> j-invariant: Doesn't every Coq story starting with "So I had this idea to implement quotient sets..." end with "...and it didn't work"?
19:22:19 <j-invariant> maybe I should apply that mu- thing to a language with modules
19:22:54 <j-invariant> it's smoe magic way to turn a programming language into a dependently typed one
19:23:25 <j-invariant> they did it to a sort of haskell liek language and got a simple version of agda out
19:23:42 <elliott> j-invariant: what happens when you apply it to C
19:23:46 <j-invariant> if we throw modules in maybe we'll get quotients out
19:23:48 <elliott> does it kill you and your family?
19:23:50 <j-invariant> elliott: well it has to be a lambda calculus
19:24:32 <elliott> coppro (coppro is the entire u/waterloo)
19:24:56 <elliott> OF HTHE THWEOITH IOEDFJHDFGMLKDFGNHDKL;FGH
19:24:59 <Vorpal> check their website for opening hours
19:25:03 <j-invariant> elliott: excerice, prove the theorem http://pastebin.com/6P2ydkcU
19:25:49 <elliott> j-invariant: for your homework, prove goldbach's conjecture
19:25:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well oerjan seemed afk
19:26:41 <elliott> j-invariant: (+,N):Z :: (*,Z):Q :: (^,Q):??
19:27:02 <nooga> netcraft is an internet services company based in england
19:27:17 <elliott> nooga doesn't know who netcraft are lol
19:27:23 <elliott> nooga is young netcraft confirms it
19:27:54 <elliott> j-invariant: (+,N):Z :: (*,Z):Q :: (^,Z):??
19:28:22 <elliott> j-invariant: it's easy to show that you can define an inverse-making-quotient operation given an operator and a set obeying a few rules and that f(+,N)=Z and f(*,Z)=Q... this much is obvious
19:28:32 <elliott> j-invariant: just wonder what happens when you put in (^,Z)
19:28:38 <elliott> (a,b) represents a-b or a/b
19:28:48 <nooga> we were talking about minecraft reimplementation, not a company with rainbow logo
19:28:50 <elliott> (a,b) represents a((^)^-1)b
19:30:19 <elliott> j-invariant: you work out what comes out :P
19:31:07 <elliott> well obviously (x,x^n) = n
19:32:57 <elliott> j-invariant: i think it's just Q with log to be honest... but then Q is just Z with divide
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19:35:03 <elliott> j-invariant: does the mu thing have to be a lambda calculus strictly?
19:35:07 <elliott> or can any similar-ish structure do
19:35:13 <elliott> I'd love to see a dependent-typed term rewriting language
19:37:04 <j-invariant> elliott: Realizability and Parametricity in Pure Type Systems
19:37:25 <elliott> j-invariant: that'd require actual thought!!!!
19:38:58 <j-invariant> We describe a systematic method to build a logic from any
19:38:58 <j-invariant> programming language described as a Pure Type System (PTS). The
19:38:58 <j-invariant> formulas of this logic express properties about programs. We define a
19:38:58 <j-invariant> parametricity theory about programs and a realizability theory for the
19:38:58 <j-invariant> logic. The logic is expressive enough to internalize both theories. Thanks
19:39:00 <j-invariant> to the PTS setting, we abstract most idiosyncrasies specific to particular
19:39:03 <j-invariant> type theories. This confers generality to the results, and reveals parallels
19:40:09 <elliott> j-invariant: i wish i was cool enough to have my own dependent language :p
19:40:40 <j-invariant> just pick some esoteric PTS nobody cares about and apply this paper to it
19:41:01 <elliott> j-invariant: bah -- i still want a language based on dual-intuitionistic logic
19:41:05 <elliott> j-invariant: paraconsistent type system, how cool is that?
19:41:13 <elliott> function arrow replaced with "butnot"
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19:41:59 <elliott> j-invariant: hmm maybe i will try hacking up a dependent language
19:42:22 <j-invariant> elliott: one with delimited continuations?
19:42:31 <j-invariant> you can prove stuff that Coq and Agda can't prove if you do that
19:42:31 <elliott> j-invariant: you can implement them on top of a language can't you?
19:42:47 <elliott> j-invariant: i don't wanna start doing tactics and shit so maybe proving isn't what i should focus on for now :)
19:42:52 <j-invariant> there's this paper about it I don't really get it but an implementation would be interesting
19:42:52 * elliott waits for ghc to finish compiling
19:43:01 <j-invariant> I just mean typing out lambda terms to prove things
19:43:50 <elliott> j-invariant: maybe i can write a lazy specialiser for it and i will have succeeded in creating the Best Language :)
19:45:20 <elliott> j-invariant: I wish Scheme was a better language because Ponzi Scheme is an awesome name
19:45:45 <elliott> even though i don't really want to
19:46:03 <elliott> ok so scheme is actually pretty nice
19:46:13 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php#Implementation i'm proud of this code, for all the awful shit it does it's pretty
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19:47:33 <elliott> pikhq: I found out how to use stow with packages that refuse to even give you the time of day if you change the prefix.
19:48:59 <elliott> pikhq: ./configure --prefix=/usr/local && make && make install DESTDIR=root && mkdir /stow/foo && cp root/usr/local/* /stow/foo
19:49:10 <elliott> Just about everything supports DESTDIR so this works great.
19:49:17 <elliott> (Even Python's setup.py does.)
19:53:55 <elliott> j-invariant: you know that de-bruijn-for-bound-stuff-names-for-unbound-stuff?
19:54:14 <elliott> j-invariant: that the epigram people do
19:54:23 <elliott> I am not a number, I am a free variable
19:54:36 <elliott> j-invariant: am i weird if i think we should just get rid of all non-local variables and just rewrite everything as a single lambda application
19:54:57 <elliott> j-invariant: not as in, the actual code we write!
19:55:01 <elliott> but i think compilers should do it like that
19:55:18 <elliott> i mean an assignment like that is basically a let around the whole program
19:55:20 <j-invariant> if everything is a lambda, then you can't step inside an abstraction cayou?
19:55:25 <elliott> and let x=y in z is just (\x->z)y
19:55:47 <elliott> j-invariant: that isn't really what i mean
19:55:51 <elliott> j-invariant: i don't mean every object should be a lambda
19:56:09 <elliott> j-invariant: I just mean that there should be no assignment or anything, it should just be lambda application to a constant :p
19:56:19 <elliott> and have everything be de bruijn
19:56:26 <elliott> it's simpler to process :D
19:57:13 <elliott> "I'd like to thank this /r/programming thread http://bit.ly/eNygOX for helping me adjust to senescence." --pigworker
19:58:18 <elliott> j-invariant: one issue with doing bindings in this way is that the order you choose is totally arbitrary ... and everything that passes some parameters to a module, if you add something to that module, all those break because the order changes
19:58:21 <elliott> BUT THAT'S BORING PRACTICAL PROBLEMS
19:58:42 <elliott> obviously we just redo every single piece of code every time a single byte changes
20:03:49 <elliott> j-invariant: quick, what should i put in my silly language
20:04:25 <elliott> j-invariant: that sounds really painful to do :>
20:05:34 <elliott> j-invariant: can i add them after everything else or should i really do them first
20:08:59 <elliott> j-invariant: i am getting slightly disillusioned with all the provers :-.
20:09:39 <elliott> j-invariant: let's go back to ridiculously dynamically typed, late-bound languages and write unit tests
20:09:58 <elliott> j-invariant: Unit tests prove goldbach!!!!!!
20:10:17 <elliott> j-invariant: (if I keep this up I'll turn into Zeilberger)
20:10:21 * pikhq is still completely blown away by the recent PS3 hack...
20:10:29 <elliott> or Chaitin... "Add an axiom!"
20:11:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/rwmHO.png The PAXEL
20:11:18 <j-invariant> elliott: oen of my concerns is how large scale programming can work
20:11:35 <pikhq> j-invariant: The hack by fail0verflow, which contains all of Team Twiizers, detailed at 27C3 recently.
20:11:39 <j-invariant> elliott: category theory may be the solution to it
20:11:40 <elliott> j-invariant: this is why i was talking about a 75% solution for all the not-just-pure-proving work
20:11:42 <pikhq> j-invariant: Well, rather, the *set* of hacks.
20:11:56 <elliott> j-invariant: like, I don't look at Idris or Ur and think "will this scale to bigger things..."
20:11:58 <pikhq> j-invariant: The most hilarious one is that they have the signing key now.
20:12:52 <pikhq> You see, Sony signs things using ECDSA, which requires, as part of the algorithm, a cryptographically secure random number.
20:12:59 <pikhq> Sony, however, uses a *constant* instead.
20:13:14 <pikhq> Which allows you to get the private key using simple algebra.
20:13:49 <j-invariant> "Sony seem to have just randomly sprinkled crypto on the PS3 as magical pixie dust. Wackier crypto usage MUST be more secure, right? Right?"
20:13:52 <pikhq> So, the PS3 is as hacked as it is possible to be.
20:15:19 <pikhq> They also discovered a handful of buffer overflows in un-reflashable code that would allow one to make a mod chip that Sony couldn't do anything about, but that kinda pales in comparison to it being *literally impossible* for Sony to do anything about everyone being able to sign anything.
20:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/rwmHO.png The PAXEL ← WANT
20:15:36 <j-invariant> pikhq: I guess the PS3 devs grew up writing websites that don't santies SQL inputs
20:16:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there's actually a mod for it lol
20:16:18 <elliott> except it looks slightly less silly
20:16:29 <elliott> j-invariant: obviously we can solve that with DEPENDENT TYPES
20:16:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: client only
20:17:01 <pikhq> It is, in fact, more hacked than the Wii now.
20:19:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14765180/AnimalCrafting/screenshots/animalcrafting16.png WORST TEXTURE PACK
20:20:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gravel. Seriously.
20:20:54 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/1Z1Bw.jpg omg that reminds me i need to install ambient occlusion. and painterly.
20:21:28 <fizzie> That animalcrafting16.png reminds me of one of the early 3D Sonics, for some reason.
20:21:44 <elliott> it's animal crossing methinks
20:22:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lol the reddit thread is filled with OMG WHAT TEXTURE PACK
20:26:40 <nooga> so what;s with this reimplementation
20:27:09 <elliott> nooga: what reimplementation
20:28:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: On CMOS in Minecraft: "This is the best idea in the history of minecraft. Or at least slightly behind the idea of the character being able to pee, I think that is important also."
20:28:43 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45590
20:30:13 <elliott> fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: http://getsatisfaction.com/mojang/topics/will_here_be_dragons_or_other_flying_mobsters_in_the_air_in_the_berworld#reply_4040443
20:30:17 <elliott> Oh god I cannot stop laughing
20:30:25 <nooga> elliott: reimplementation of minecraft
20:31:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He is so happy. Unintentionally.
20:31:03 <j-invariant> it's funny how everyone left digg for reddit, now people rae leaving reddit
20:31:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also nothing like a dragon at all which is just amazing.
20:31:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ahahahaha oh god i just saw his eyes
20:31:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I thought the eyes were the nostrils
20:31:47 <elliott> j-invariant: that was the guy who said he was going to kill himself in all the irc channels he was in a few years ago.
20:31:59 <elliott> j-invariant: that's what I know him for :-P
20:33:01 <elliott> j-invariant: i wonder why because of quad's post ... it's supremely idiotic but isn't it obvious that nobody actually agrees with him?
20:34:04 <elliott> heh ... just checked hacker news
20:34:08 <elliott> that idiot kroc camen is at #1
20:35:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: this idiot.
20:35:08 <elliott> Cabal-1.10.0.0-8b2e042500a42b47b6b121795bb9262f is unusable due to missing or recursive dependencies:
20:35:09 <elliott> process-1.0.1.4-2a42745dbb9dd3c8087608f127411124
20:44:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's quite possibly the least specific identifier EVER.
20:46:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: please please please get Ubuntu working on this.
20:47:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you betrayed Debian in a Sgeoesque display of infidelity!
20:53:28 <Ilari> Yay, got that AONT code written (uses AES and SHA-256)...
20:53:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *WORTHY SHUTTLE
20:53:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, YOUR TIME AT HOOVER HEAVY INDUSTRIES IS AT AN END
20:54:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK. Can I still steal TNT?
20:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you can't use company TNT unless you concede that Shuttleworth is EVIL.
20:54:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Of course he is. http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/cancomical-lynchpad
20:55:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't want to join until you read every Everybody Loves Eric Raymond comic ever.
20:55:56 <elliott> I wonder if there will ever be a new one.
20:56:14 <elliott> "December 21, 2012 – A new ELER strip is published.
20:56:14 <elliott> Sometime after, millions of *nix administrators die of a shock induced heart attack, and critical infrastructure is left unmaintained. Major companies go bankrupt as their servers succumb to threats normally mitigated by vigilant admins. The economies of the United States and the European Union collapse. Major military powers blame the incident on Chinese cyberwarfare, and invade the nation. Nuclear war ensues."
20:56:20 <elliott> I... that... is actually plausible.
20:57:04 <elliott> "Checked ELER for update, as friend asked me had I seen latest post. Friend is now on a certain list. Oh yes…."
20:57:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2575#comment-279450 "while arguably, I *am* in fact a world-changing figure" --esr
20:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that the man is allowed anywhere near a gun is something I will never understand.
21:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> [[His highly respectable work and expertise in computer technology has been all but overshadowed by his batshit insane wingnut tendencies in the wake of 9/11]] — RW on ESR
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21:03:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Eric_S._Raymond&diff=707432&oldid=695156
21:03:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ADD A NEW REVISION ON TOP BEFORE HUMAN REVERTS ME
21:03:39 <elliott> "The worst part of all is that he blames Alan Turing for his judicial punishment and suicide, even though Raymond, like every other computer programmer, owes Turing his career."
21:03:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: AD DA REVISION ADD A REVISION QUIIIICK
21:04:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Eric_S._Raymond#Utter_madness
21:04:24 <elliott> j-invariant: it's rationalwiki it can't be right
21:04:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OTOH, he was saying that "Turing was asking for it", which is appalling beyond words.
21:05:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Who cares — the article is already crap anyway.
21:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Um, no. INTERCAL is one of the things that is ESR working in his sphere of powerful competence.]]
21:05:04 <j-invariant> "His highly respectable work and expertise ..." ~~> "His questionable work and expertise in computer technology ..." hahahaha
21:05:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Add a damned revision to the article already so mine doesn't get reverted.
21:05:24 <elliott> Just tweak the formatting of my edit :P
21:05:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also TO BE FAIR he did originally write C-INTERCAL, but the code wasn't very ... good.
21:06:56 <elliott> pikhq: So, is there any actual obstacle to using stow?
21:07:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, you removed the amusing bit.
21:09:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, [[I do not like this article because it does not sufficiently acknowledge what ESR is good at and famous for. He wrote large chunks of libgif and libpng - without him your web browser would be a much sadder place. He has code in every Linux-based gadget you use - if his contributions disappeared, your broadband modem and even your television would be bricks.]]
21:09:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Seen, yes. What of it?
21:10:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's factually correct (probably), but it doesn't really matter much.
21:10:29 <elliott> Parsing GIFs and PNGs is not some huge innovation.
21:10:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also it doesn't invalidate my footnote which states that it's /hard/ to find such a list which is true.
21:11:15 <elliott> I have some kind of negative thought linked to David Gerard's name in my head but I don't know why.
21:12:48 <elliott> j-invariant: maybe i'll use my crazy Transaction type in this lang
21:13:56 <Ilari> Fun stuff with AONT: Pad messages to fixed size and do AONT on each. Pick HMAC key for each message, chunk messages and compute HMACs for chunks and append the MACs to chunks. Then perform random in-order merge of chunks. If there are enough chunks per message and at least 2 messages, that's difficult to untangle without HMAC keys.
21:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, David Gerard has been... not trolling, but being a pain at Less Wrong.
21:14:51 <Ilari> For extra fun, couple chunks containing random data can be added...
21:14:52 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, other than symlinks sucking, no.
21:15:14 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder how the GNU System guys didn't think of using DESTDIR.
21:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, not sure. Look at the RW LW articles: he wrote a great deal of them.
21:16:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You mean [[Less Wrong]] on RationalWiki?
21:16:07 <Ilari> Basically, that allows making data undecode multiple ways with possibilty of junk that just doesn't undecode.
21:16:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Scared to do that — Reddit Atheists react explosively when confronted with people who are actually rigorous about it.
21:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, he's also part of the Wikipedian Bureaucracy.
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21:17:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: '"rationalists"'.
21:17:55 <elliott> pikhq: Then ... why is it blocking a release?
21:18:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Aren't you an admin?
21:18:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh wait, I forgot, RW goes by the Wikipedia Administration model, where admins are given endless powers but actually using them is taboo.
21:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, at RW? Sure, but the criteria for that are more or less the same as for autoconfirmation.
21:19:13 <pikhq> elliott: A) They don't *want* to use stow. B) stowfs does not work yet.
21:19:17 <elliott> http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50
21:19:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dear god how many are there.
21:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, I'm also a bureaucrat for reasons unclear to me.
21:19:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do they realise that they have almost as many sysops as Wikipedia?
21:19:51 <pikhq> elliott: C) That's not actually a major blocker; a major blocker is that HARDLY ANYTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS WITH IT AT ALL.
21:20:05 <elliott> pikhq: From using stow I actually kinda like it...
21:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you fail to understand that a significant driving force behind RW's policy is being the opposite of Conservapedia.
21:20:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: RATIONALWIKI PREDATES CONSERVAPEDIA (iirc)
21:20:35 <pikhq> Yeah, the symlink thing is the only really *bad* thing about stow, and it's not *that* bad...
21:20:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't? Well that explains ... a lot.
21:21:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I guess nobody realised that the opposite of Conservapedia is LiberalUnjustifiedNutjobPedia.
21:21:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, naw, that exists too, it's just *profoundly* unfunny.
21:21:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It exists and it's called RW. Also isn't that Lumenos' thing?
21:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Imagine a female zzo. Then imagine her attempting to be funny.
21:22:11 <elliott> If you say "but RW is humorous", well ... I can't bring myself to take Conservapedia seriously either. :P
21:22:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Libertarians aren't keen on illegal immigration, but liberals always sort them out." Err?
21:22:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It just ... ist hat meant to be funny?
21:23:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, again, it was written by zzo's distaff counterpart.
21:23:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Too man contractions
21:24:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I meant in the text.
21:24:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [[If you indicate your disagreement with the local belief clusters without at least using their jargon, someone may helpfully suggest that "you should try reading the sequences" before you attempt to talk to them. The "sequences"[6] are several collated series of Yudkowsky's blog posts, and there are eighteen sequences in all. The indexes for just the four "core sequences"[7] are somewhere north of 10,000 words. Those
21:24:44 <elliott> link to over a hundred and fifty 2,000-3,000-word blog posts. That's about 300,000-450,000 words for those four. For comparison, Lord Of The Rings is 454,000 words.[8] As such, "You should try reading the sequences" is LessWrong for "Godspeed" "fuck you."]]
21:24:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr "Reading is hard"?
21:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, saying "read this hefty tome" in an argument isn't a very good idea.
21:26:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's sort of like expecting you to have read the Bible on a Christian debate forum ... (I know, I know, that choice of analogy is just giving ammo but I don't care.)
21:26:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As bad as RationalWiki is the Richard Dawkins forum is worse. :p
21:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, of course. RW is at least /ostensibly/ without any opinion on religion.
21:27:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In attempting to interpret that sentence of yours, my brain stumbled upon a world where the definition of "ostensibly" is "not".
21:27:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Disturbingly that seems to be the real world.
21:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, there are quite a few theists, and they get along fairly well.
21:28:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: O god, the RW article mentions the Amanda Knox case.
21:29:21 <elliott> Murder of Meredith Ketcher.
21:29:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As far as I can tell the entire Richard Dawkins forum is united in considering Amanda Knox 100% guilty without actually presenting any evidence at all or... anything; the courts agree. Less Wrong is of the opposite opinion.
21:30:03 <elliott> I can't actually understand _why_ the RD forum agrees except that Reddit Atheists have this strange tendency to put undue trust in authority, presumably because they also believe all the most popular scientific theories without actually looking into them themselves.
21:30:18 <elliott> (And by that I mean the whole world.)
21:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, trusting the prevailing scientific theories is just the only way to get by in the world.
21:30:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Certainly.
21:31:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But it doesn't mean you should generalise that to "trust authority".
21:31:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't have any /evidence/ that Reddatheists think this, but it's the only theory I can come up with for things like their absolute unwavering trust in, e.g. courts.
21:32:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, particularly odd, given that Dawkins himself is no fan of the legal system.
21:32:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I love Dawkins. It's his fans I'm not too keen on.
21:34:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, the Amanda Knox thing is http://lesswrong.com/lw/1ir/you_be_the_jury_survey_on_a_current_event/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/1j7/the_amanda_knox_test_how_an_hour_on_the_internet/; those posts have links to the Richard Dawkins forum, but if you replace "Don't be stupid, everyone can see that Amanda Knox is insanely guilty" mentally that's pretty much the exact content of the RD threads.
21:42:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The LW-consensus is that an aversion to giving numeric probabilities is basically an artefact of human wetware.
21:43:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but... I mean, do they have calculations for it or what?
21:43:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Your probability *estimate*".
21:43:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's meant to be rough, just like any guesswork. Numbers aren't inherently "precise". Note: I am giving my perception of the LW consensus, not supporting it or agreeing with it.
21:46:07 <Ilari> Hmm... Returning to that fan problem... At least CPU fan and main case fan both work...
21:46:37 <Ilari> (dunno about PSU fan)
21:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, Ilari is now your subordinate at HHI.
21:46:52 <Ilari> Also, GPU fan appears to work...
21:46:56 <elliott> Ilari: Do whatever. The paychecks will come at regular intervals.
21:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is it bad to try and establish a utopia of laziness with my position?
21:47:17 <elliott> Ilari: Hoover Heavy Industries, the most fake corporation of fakeness.
21:47:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm still not sure what kind of entity it is.
21:47:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's a militacountrypany!
21:48:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I would really play an Oolite MMO... I realise it's a non-trivial problem but I would honestly subscribe to a pay-monthly Oolite MMO I think.
21:48:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: EVE is just so boring and hard to get into.
21:49:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Even then what.
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Even in a world of Platonically ideal computers, Braben would sue the hell out of the people running the MMO.
21:49:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Even if the ship names were changed? Presumably it'd take place in a new world anyway.
21:49:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can't copyright gameplay itself.
21:50:07 <elliott> Change the names, make new designs, redo the UI.
21:50:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, by this point you can always just look at Infinity and sigh.
21:50:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Who cares about landing on planets.
21:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there is actually an OXP that lets you do that...
21:52:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it basically just consists of flying into the planet and getting a docking effect.
21:53:52 <elliott> [[Go to your preferences, select monobook as your default skin and never again worry about the horrible new crap mediawiki wants to inflict on you. That's what I did, anyway. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 15:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
21:53:53 <elliott> :That's the right conservative attitude. --Idiot numbre 188 (talk) 16:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)]]
21:53:56 <elliott> I should stop reading RW, it's bad for me.
21:54:01 <elliott> I even /like/ Vector but COME ON.
21:55:42 <elliott> What is it with people and No True Scotsman. I see No True Scotsman misused more than I see actual No True Scotsman.
21:55:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It is well-documented that the text is far far far smaller than Monobook's on many computers.
21:56:19 <elliott> If Dawkins announced that he was a Christian, and then kept doing EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS HE DID BEFORE FOREVER, and someone said then RD wasn't actually Christian, someone would bring out No True Scotsman.
21:56:38 <elliott> Just because he publishes books and speaks in public about how all religion is false doesn't make him not a Christian! SCOTSMAAAAAN
21:56:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: s/computers/browsers/. Probably.
21:58:08 <elliott> Oh god I forgot how amazing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0 is.
21:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly, Vector has a smaller font size anyway, but it was more pronounced.
21:59:25 <elliott> j-invariant: lol at the trailer? or
21:59:35 <elliott> i would so have gone and seen it
21:59:56 <elliott> j-invariant: it's the trailer to "2012", recut with bongos
22:02:49 <variable> elliott, agreeing with you: that is a horrible misuse of No True Scotsman. It has a very particular syllogistic form that I've almost never actually seen used
22:03:22 <variable> the flaw has nothing to do whether someone or something is or isn't in a group :-\
22:03:26 <elliott> [[ Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." [Brighton is not part of Scotland.] ]] — Antony Flew (before he got old and crazy)
22:04:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He did indeed.
22:04:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (The populariser of No True Scotsman and famous atheist who later got old and was convinced to agree that God does actually exist.)
22:05:02 <variable> the pure logical form is: (a) All members of the set of A lack the trait T. (b) X is a member of A (objection) X has trait T (c) X is not a True A
22:05:03 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans elliott to within an inch of his life --==\#/
22:05:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you remember when almost all the examples of forms of argumentation on Wikipedia were between Father and (precocious) Daughter?
22:05:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It was amazing.
22:05:57 <variable> elliott, one thing I'm *really* good at is logic :-}
22:06:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In one of them the father argued for tolerance of all beliefs, then the daughter went "Well, you CAN'T say that because you have to be tolerant of the belief that it's BAD to be tolerant!" and oh god
22:07:10 <elliott> j-invariant: I wonder whether I should do this with she.
22:07:43 <j-invariant> {-# LANGUAGE TypeOperators, GADTs, KindSignatures, RankNTypes, TypeFamilies, FlexibleContexts, NoMonomorphismRestriction #-}
22:07:50 <elliott> j-invariant: I call that "Tuesday"
22:08:50 * elliott edits keyboard layout, changes £ to #
22:08:55 <elliott> nobody talks about money and I need my hash
22:09:18 <variable> elliott, have you ever actually seen NTS used correctly?
22:09:24 <elliott> variable: not that I know of
22:09:31 <elliott> it appears to be a vanishingly rare fallacy in practice.
22:09:46 <elliott> mostly because there are easier-to-make, more convincing ones.
22:10:17 <elliott> "To open kluchrtoxml, you need to install Rosetta. Would you like to install it now?"
22:10:34 <variable> stupid VLC and mplayer can't play my DVD
22:10:58 <elliott> mplayer plays everything, you did something wrong
22:11:24 <variable> elliott, it should be mplayer dvd:// -dvd-device /dev/acd0
22:14:48 <elliott> j-invariant: I wish Type:Type was consistent
22:14:48 <j-invariant> data (:/:) (r :: *) :: {Poly r} -> * where Q :: r -> r :/: p
22:15:01 <elliott> j-invariant: Indeed, I doubt it can :P
22:15:05 <elliott> It's not a full language, man!
22:15:23 <elliott> j-invariant: That's cool though.
22:15:26 <elliott> But I doubt it's possible :P
22:16:41 <elliott> j-invariant: nicer than plain haskell though
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22:22:19 <variable> how does urxvt NOT have unicode support....
22:23:20 <elliott> j-invariant: :( she can't have types which are dependent on themselves
22:23:27 <elliott> j-invariant: i.e. a constructor of type T takes a dependent T
22:24:15 <variable> elliott, any unicode character shows up as ?
22:24:23 <elliott> variable: you set encodings wrong
22:24:55 <elliott> j-invariant: hm i think i did it wrong
22:25:03 <elliott> Sigma :: {a:Type} -> Term {Pi (TypeI Z) (TypeI Z)} -> Type
22:25:11 <elliott> the output for that tries to use : as a type operator and stuff so no it's not that
22:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, which language are you guys messing around with this time?
22:26:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Haskell+she
22:26:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what does this "she" do?
22:26:51 <elliott> Vorpal: she does many things.
22:26:55 <variable> elliott, any ideas for what to look for?
22:26:58 <Vorpal> elliott, that's what SHE said!
22:27:06 <elliott> pseudo-dependent types, Pi, pattern synonyms, pseudo-aspect-oriented programming, and IDIOM BRAKKETZ
22:27:15 <elliott> variable: what program is outputting them?
22:27:52 <Vorpal> that outputs the relevant variables
22:28:00 <variable> elliott, when I attempt to copy from xchat to the shell (so I guess its zsh)
22:28:01 <Vorpal> and also shows which is in effect for those not set
22:28:18 <Vorpal> variable, then there is LANG, LC_CTYPE and so on.
22:28:24 <elliott> yeah you need to set them to en_foo.UTF8
22:28:27 <Vorpal> variable, well of course unicode doesn't work then
22:28:38 <variable> Vorpal, I'm new to unicode in the terminall....
22:28:58 <variable> I should set them to en_US.UTF8 ?
22:29:11 <Vorpal> variable, set LANG=en_US.UTF-8
22:29:27 <Vorpal> then all the unset ones default to LANG
22:29:32 <Vorpal> so you only need to set LANG
22:29:39 <Vorpal> (and LC_ALL overrides all on top of that)
22:29:51 <variable> urxvt: default locale unavailable, check LC_* and LANG variables. Continuing.
22:30:23 <variable> export LANG="en_US.UTF8"; urxvt
22:30:34 <Vorpal> btw, you might want to change LC_COLLATE to C again. since the non-C locales often sorts case insensitively.
22:30:56 <Vorpal> or another alternative: maybe the locale was not generated
22:31:02 <Vorpal> I think how varies between distros
22:32:52 <elliott> data Term :: {Nat} -> {Type} -> * where
22:32:52 <elliott> Star :: {n} -> Term l {TypeI (S n)}
22:32:52 <elliott> Var :: Fin {n} -> Term {n} ???
22:33:03 <elliott> j-invariant: am i going to have to carry around the whole environment of types or something? :
22:34:54 <elliott> j-invariant: in the /type system/?
22:34:58 <elliott> j-invariant: I'm not Oleg!
22:35:23 <elliott> The requested URL /~conor/pub/she/examples/ShePrelude.lhs was not found on this server.
22:35:23 <elliott> Apache Server at personal.cis.strath.ac.uk Port 80
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22:40:56 <variable> elliott, my next language design goal is to make a language that takes an extremely long time to *compile* but NOT based on the time of day or have any arbitrary time requirments
22:41:30 <elliott> variable: We have that, it's called C++.
22:42:03 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't haskell faster than C++ at least?
22:42:15 <variable> basically - make the language itself require algorithms that are Θ(2^n)
22:42:43 <Vorpal> variable, why not O(n!)
22:42:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Well. We're working on that.
22:43:12 <elliott> variable: better -- have a language with, e.g., 2^128 types exactly. have the only possible method of type checking be brute forcing
22:43:20 <elliott> variable: just store programs as SHA-512 hashes of an actual program
22:43:25 <elliott> compilation takes place by brute-forcing the actual program
22:43:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> variable: just store programs as SHA-512 hashes of an actual program <-- didn't gregor do this already?
22:44:06 <elliott> I think there is such a language on the wiki.
22:44:16 <variable> elliott, no because that is not deterministic
22:44:36 <variable> and I don't just want O(n!) I want Θ(n!)
22:44:39 <elliott> variable: yes it is deterministic
22:44:51 <elliott> there are hash collisions, but who cares :)
22:44:56 <variable> elliott, no - because there could be multiple programs that result in the same sha hash
22:45:00 <elliott> variable: specify the order in which strings are brute-forced duh
22:45:10 <Vorpal> if it fails to compile, just search for a collision
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22:45:56 <variable> elliott, but then its not turing complete - not all programs could be represented
22:45:57 <Vorpal> until you manage to find a program that compiles
22:45:57 <elliott> ask the user if it's what they want
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22:46:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well that works if every possible string is a valid program
22:46:10 <elliott> Vorpal: No, you just completely skip the non-compiling ones.
22:46:10 <elliott> variable: That's not a requirement for turing completeness...
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22:46:37 <elliott> variable: You take the original language, remove a bunch of programs (those which come after a valid program in brute-force-order), and that's the "real" language.
22:47:08 <elliott> The hashes are just a facade over that.
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22:47:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I'm pretty sure that every hash can yeild a program that outputs a given output, assuming a good hash function.
22:47:10 <elliott> Vorpal: You could finetune a hash function for it.
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22:47:11 <elliott> Vorpal: But that isn't true.
22:47:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Consider outputs bigger than the hash size.
22:47:22 <variable> j-invariant, Φ = lower bound O = upper bound Θ is when O == Φ IIRC
22:47:22 <Vorpal> elliott, well, there are infinitely many strings that result in the same hash
22:47:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Specifically, uncompressable outputs bigger than the hash size.
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22:47:37 <elliott> Vorpal: The pigeonholes are very crowded.
22:47:49 <elliott> variable: did j-invariant ask?
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22:47:49 <variable> elliott, meh - I want to invent the language myself
22:48:05 <variable> elliott, I thought he did when he said <j-invariant> hm
22:48:10 <Vorpal> elliott, if the hash function is good, then it will "look" random. Thus we won't get that anything starting with, say, an "y" can't have this hash
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22:48:41 <Vorpal> if that would happen, then it wouldn't be a good hash function
22:49:00 <variable> elliott, am I right? I always forget the lowerbound symbol - the rest I know are correct
22:49:12 <Vorpal> elliott, thus, we should be able to find a program for any given hash that gives a specific output. Though it may be a /very/ long program.
22:49:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Let's just say yes and not think about it!
22:49:34 <Vorpal> elliott, do you think I'm not right?
22:49:35 <elliott> Var :: {Fin n} -> Term {t:ts} t
22:49:37 <elliott> j-invariant: can't believe that actually works
22:49:51 <variable> elliott ah I have another idea for a language
22:50:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well, who would be the expert on this?
22:50:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Your mo^W^Wsomeone.
22:50:16 <elliott> Vorpal: It sounds like something very hard to prove.
22:50:19 <elliott> For a given hash function.
22:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott, for any /real/ hash function yes
22:50:33 <variable> you program the language by defining all legal inputs and the resulting outputs. The compiler bruteforces the shortest program that would result in those inputs/outputs :-}
22:50:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but for a theoretical perfect one
22:50:49 <elliott> variable: Reminds me of Clue.
22:51:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, let's consider the hash function : String -> 1.
22:51:15 <elliott> Vorpal: There is only one such function, f(s) = ().
22:51:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Every program has the hash (), and the hash () has every program.
22:51:38 <elliott> Vorpal: What is your hypothesis again?
22:52:04 <elliott> j-invariant: what do you think of HOAS?
22:52:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well, for every value in the co-domain of the hash function it will be possible to find a program in the domain that gives the specific output (assuming a language where the program isn't the same as the output, I suspect the language need to be brainfuck-IO-complete)
22:53:00 <Vorpal> (or at least output, I don't think input matters)
22:53:16 <elliott> f : String -> 2; f('x':...) = A; f(s) = B
22:53:22 <Vorpal> elliott, what language is this
22:53:24 <elliott> i.e. x followed by anything is A, everything else is B.
22:53:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Now consider a language where no valid program starts with x.
22:53:43 <elliott> All programs hash to B; A has no program.
22:53:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course this is pathological ... but it demonstrates that it is not universally true.
22:54:04 <elliott> Vorpal: I think the problem is that while hash functions "appear" random they are not _actually_ perfectly uniform.
22:54:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that is not a good hash in the way I said above though.
22:54:24 <j-invariant> elliott: it's just completely impossible to use for anything nontrivial
22:54:26 <Vorpal> elliott: <Vorpal> elliott, if the hash function is good, then it will "look" random. Thus we won't get that anything starting with, say, an "y" can't have this hash
22:54:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think a good hash in that sense exists then.
22:54:39 <Vorpal> elliott, true, I suppose even sha512 has some bias
22:54:53 <Vorpal> elliott, but something like sha512 or similar should come close at least
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22:55:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Close doesn't make a theorem. Infinity is against you; close times infinity equals infinitely far. :p
22:55:36 <j-invariant> elliott: obvious being able to write syntax using lambda terms is nice, but using it internally for algorithms doesn't seem possible
22:55:45 <variable> Vorpal, good hash functions are not defined by looking random
22:55:58 <elliott> j-invariant: is there any way out of an infinite hierarchy of Type-s again?
22:56:02 <variable> good hash functions are defined by small changes in the source result in large changes in the output
22:56:03 <elliott> or is it all just machinery to hide it
22:56:10 <elliott> variable: yes. we are aware
22:56:17 <elliott> he was defining his own notion
22:57:04 <Vorpal> elliott, but theoretically perfectly unbiased hash functions are often used in discussing algorithms using hash function. Proving something secure with that is easier than with any given real hash, so I seem to remember that often crypto things are proven secure given an unbiased hash function first.
22:58:04 <variable> Vorpal, actually my definition isn't complete
22:58:04 <Vorpal> variable, which will as a result look pretty random. I was not being very strict in my wording when I said "looking random"
22:58:04 <variable> because then theoretically multiplying all the bytes together should be a "good" hash function
22:58:22 <elliott> Vorpal: is an unbiased function even theoretically possible?
22:58:28 <elliott> I'm not sure such a functoin would be computable
22:58:46 <Vorpal> elliott, define theoretically.
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22:59:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Is there a computable unbiased hash function?
22:59:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you can discuss things using an oracle in articles. They are presumably not possible for an UTM.
23:00:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if it has been proven if one could exist or not
23:00:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure none is known though.
23:00:26 <elliott> data Term :: {[Type]} -> {Type n} -> * where
23:00:26 <elliott> Star :: {n} -> Term {ts} {TypeI (S n)}
23:00:26 <elliott> Var :: {Fin n} -> Term {t:ts} {t}
23:00:28 <elliott> Fun :: {t} -> Term {t:ts} {s} -> Term {ts} {Pi t s}
23:00:30 <elliott> App :: Term {ts} {Pi t s} -> Term {ts} {t} -> Term {ts} {s}
23:00:35 <elliott> j-invariant: what's the hot way of describing data structures nowadays
23:00:40 <elliott> W fell out of favour I know that :)
23:01:33 <Vorpal> elliott, yes not very googable
23:01:52 <Vorpal> elliott, even with the dot
23:01:55 <elliott> Vorpal: The birth ceremony http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~txa/publ/icalp04.pdf and obituary http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/?p=324
23:02:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Just skip straight to the obituary.
23:02:59 <elliott> "In Epigram 2, we don’t take W-types as the primitive source of inductive structure. Instead, we supply a universe of inductive types, giving first-order data a first-order representation. We’ve just written a paper about it: The Gentle Art of Levitation."
23:03:01 <Gregor> Vorpal, elliott: HASHFUCK IS PATENTED
23:03:05 <elliott> but i think that might be overblown for what i want
23:03:19 <elliott> Gregor: YOUR MOERMYORI TJOP FDJ ODGPDNG IODFJG IODJG IODFJG KOFDJGOIFDJH0DZJSVOI HIOSI ]EWSE0R 9J90E4JYS0SJ TAWR -K5 -K[RS';T/XHC;LGKO[N]PLJK
23:03:33 <elliott> Vorpal: you read the whole post and understood it in that time?
23:03:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I never claimed I did
23:03:59 <elliott> j-invariant: I should probably have a type for terms and values
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23:06:58 <elliott> j-invariant: as in, two individual ones
23:07:05 <elliott> rather than just reducing Terms down to more value-y terms
23:08:57 <j-invariant> I have Maybe all over the place because I can't parametrize haskell modules by values
23:09:08 <j-invariant> but it's not clear whether they get turned to Just's in time
23:09:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well too long to read, but the general issue he mentions is a recurring theme. Too flexible, too hard to work with in computers.
23:09:20 <elliott> data Term :: {[forall n. Type n]} -> {Type n} -> * where
23:09:21 <elliott> TermWrap :: Thing Term {ts} {s} -> Term {ts} {s}
23:09:21 <elliott> App :: me {ts} {Pi t s} -> me {ts} {t} -> Term {ts} {s}
23:09:22 <elliott> instance Thingy Term where wrap = TermWrap
23:09:45 <elliott> Vorpal: well there's more important stuff near the bottom where he demonstrates theoretical problems too.
23:09:53 <elliott> 23:08 j-invariant: I have Maybe all over the place because I can't parametrize haskell modules by values
23:09:57 <elliott> j-invariant: this is why we need an ML-style module system!
23:10:10 <j-invariant> I don't know much about module systems really
23:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, the bit about canonical representation?
23:10:21 <j-invariant> I want a language expressive enough to define them in
23:10:28 <elliott> Vorpal: the bit about tt = ff.
23:11:29 <Sgeo> elliott, should I learn OCaml?
23:11:32 <Sgeo> I think I tried once
23:11:41 <Vorpal> elliott, ah... it is inconsistent, right?
23:11:43 <elliott> Sgeo: Learn Standard ML instead. Probably.
23:11:47 <elliott> Vorpal: It's more subtle than that :-P
23:12:24 <elliott> j-invariant: so what's your favourite way of defining recursive types in the value language!
23:12:26 <Sgeo> The reason I started with Racket in the first place is because I heard good things about the module system. I was lied to.
23:12:39 <elliott> Sgeo: the ML module system is nothing like what you think it is.
23:12:49 <elliott> j-invariant: i.e. combinators resulting in Types.
23:15:01 <elliott> j-invariant: can you look at what i have so far? http://sprunge.us/UiXi
23:15:07 <elliott> j-invariant: specifically the XXX: comments ... I'm a bit confused
23:15:18 <elliott> erm that App signature at the bottom is all wrong
23:15:20 <elliott> it hosuld say Term, not me
23:15:47 <Sgeo> elliott, any reasons for Standard ML over OCaml?
23:15:57 <elliott> Sgeo: ocaml sucks. sml sucks less.
23:16:24 <elliott> j-invariant: but agda is 'orrible
23:16:55 <elliott> j-invariant: LET ME LIVE IN MY ILLUSION
23:17:20 <j-invariant> you can't really use lists for a context of types
23:17:25 <elliott> Not in scope: type constructor or class `SheTyType'
23:17:29 <j-invariant> since later types might depend on the earlier ones..
23:17:43 <elliott> j-invariant: oh god you're right
23:17:46 <elliott> j-invariant: asdfghj that is awful
23:17:59 <elliott> is that something that exists
23:18:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you trying to do?
23:18:53 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, if you don't want to tell...
23:19:13 <elliott> Vorpal: i explained above.
23:19:36 <Vorpal> elliott, approx where?
23:20:07 <Vorpal> elliott, that you are writing (or do you mean what she is?)
23:21:04 <Vorpal> elliott, haskell should add such an extension already
23:21:30 <elliott> Vorpal: um that would require a complete restructuring of GHC
23:21:38 <elliott> and would be difficult to integrate with large swathes of haskell
23:22:36 <elliott> Ambiguous type variable `thing' in the constraint:
23:22:46 <elliott> j-invariant: apparently "thing" is ambiguous, who knew?
23:22:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what good general purpose dependently typed languages are there?
23:23:23 <Vorpal> elliott, which isn't usable yet iirc
23:23:34 <Vorpal> none that is usable as of today?
23:23:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that depends
23:25:04 <Vorpal> elliott, was it epigram that allowed you to declare a data structure using RFC notation? Or was that another language (which one?)?
23:26:04 <elliott> Vorpal: That was Cola/whateveryouwanttocallit, completely unrelated, that one's more similar to Smalltalk — don't tell Sgeo, or I'll have to add another regexp to shutup.
23:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, dude you just highlighted him
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23:27:09 <Vorpal> elliott, so this Cola, was it any good?
23:27:21 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a VPRI project. It's pretty coo'.
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23:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe I should try to learn Epigram?
23:28:55 <Vorpal> j-invariant, which ones? epigram?
23:28:55 <Vorpal> j-invariant, would you call haskell general purpose?
23:29:06 <elliott> j-invariant: Epigram is close enough :P
23:29:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, in what way is epigram not general purpose then?
23:29:16 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't learn Epigram 2 because nothing actually runs Epigram 2.
23:29:39 <elliott> Vorpal: There's an interactive-in-a-user-hostile-kind-of-way theorem prover that can define things in the Epigram system, but the actual language is completely unimplemented and utterly unfinished.
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23:30:42 <j-invariant> elliott: *Polynomial> let w = (one - Quot (mon 1, Just eisenstein))*(one + Quot (mon 1, Just eisenstein))
23:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Is it moving forward fast or?
23:30:42 <j-invariant> *Polynomial> printPolynomial names ((inj w * x + y)^7)
23:30:42 <j-invariant> "y^{7} + (14 + 7\\zeta)x y^{6} + (63 + 63\\zeta)x^{2} y^{5} + (105 + 210\\zeta)x^{3} y^{4} + (315\\zeta)x^{4} y^{3} + (-189 + 189\\zeta)x^{5} y^{2} + (-189)x^{6} y + (-54 + -27\\zeta)x^{7}"
23:30:57 <elliott> Vorpal: It's been in progress since 2005, so no; but Conor likes throwing out gigantic swathes of the underlying system, so yes.
23:30:58 <elliott> j-invariant: did you write this?!?!
23:31:06 <elliott> Vorpal: *system on a regular basis,
23:31:56 <j-invariant> :: (SheChecks Nat n, Ring r, Eq r, Show r) =>
23:31:56 <j-invariant> Vec n String -> MonoidRing r (Vec n Integer) -> String
23:34:10 <elliott> j-invariant: i approve. i approve very hard
23:34:42 <elliott> j-invariant: so do quotient sets work yet >:)
23:37:41 <elliott> /Users/ehird/Code/tabby/first.hs:52:26:
23:37:41 <elliott> Could not deduce (Show (me (t1 :$#$#$#: ts) s))
23:37:42 <elliott> from the context (t ~ SheTyPi t1 s)
23:37:43 <elliott> arising from a use of `show'
23:37:45 <elliott> at /Users/ehird/Code/tabby/first.hs:52:26-31
23:37:49 <elliott> add (Show (me (t1 :$#$#$#: ts) s)) to the context of
23:38:40 <j-invariant> "For any logical system, T, with an algorithm to decide what is and is not a proof in T (aka a decidable set of axioms) such that each axiom of Robinson Aritmetic (which is a very weak theory of arithmetic) is provable in T, there is some formula G, such if T proves G or if T proves ¬G, then T proves 0=1."
23:38:40 <elliott> j-invariant: already have yo
23:39:00 <elliott> i think i see the problem though MAYBE
23:39:10 <elliott> flexible contexts -- ALWAYS A MISTAKE ???
23:39:44 <elliott> j-invariant: any reason for quoting that? :p
23:42:03 <j-invariant> "the incompleteness and undecidability of PA cannot be blamed on the only aspect of PA differentiating it from Q, namely the axiom schema of induction."
23:42:50 <j-invariant> haha "For Christmas I received the book Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid (or GEB) and I have been pretty deeply troubled regarding Gödel's incompleteness theorems since."
23:44:14 <elliott> j-invariant: where's that from btw
23:46:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/1LCv6.png I think dome3 is smaller than the Cube.
23:46:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Note how they have tons of people working on it and even they haven't gone for bedrock.
23:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: see image. on the reddit creative server.
23:48:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I see the image. But what is it supposed to be?
23:50:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: /warp dome3.
23:50:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try not to crash the server.
23:50:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'M ON TO YOU
23:51:19 <elliott> j-invariant: to type things
23:51:59 <Vorpal> j-invariant, it is useless when he is in this mood
23:52:31 <elliott> Vorpal: actually i was joking along with j-invariant.
23:52:38 <elliott> p. sure j-invariant knows what haskell types are
23:52:49 <elliott> j-invariant: TYPES IN HASKELL ARE LIKE BURRITOS TO YOUR MONADS
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23:56:47 <Sgeo> If I became obsessed with Haskell, would shutup be configured to yell at me for mentioning Haskell?
23:57:26 <elliott> Sgeo: Only if you say stupid things.
23:57:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Yet it is, afaik, smaller than the Cube and also more shallow.
23:57:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How the fuck is the Cube ever going to get completed?
23:57:49 <elliott> j-invariant: is that polynomial thing up anywhere?
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23:57:55 <Sgeo> I'd help if I could
23:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it will get completed because we are HHI and we do not have restrictions on TNT.
23:58:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do we have the TNT kit yet?
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23:58:40 <elliott> j-invariant: is the polynomial source open?
23:58:45 <Vorpal> elliott, you have a script to tell him to shut up?
23:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, why not just ignore
23:59:18 <Sgeo> Vorpal, if I say Racket, Newspeak, Smalltalk, Factor, AW, Active Worlds, or ActiveWorlds, I get PMed a message teling me to shut up
23:59:29 <Sgeo> Used to say it in the channel, but oerjan got ticked off
23:59:48 <elliott> I am excellent at obeying the letter but not the spirit of any judgement.
23:59:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, just filter such /msg from elliott!
23:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: It doesn't come from me.
00:00:02 <Sgeo> Vorpal, it's from shutup
00:00:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo, then easy to /ignore
00:00:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Sgeo clearly realises how irritating he is sometimes because he hasn't /ignored it yet.
00:00:23 <elliott> I consider it a public service.
00:00:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you run that bot?
00:00:33 <Sgeo> I rarely use ignore
00:00:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "No, it runs on magic."
00:00:43 <Sgeo> Huh, shutup isn't even in the channel
00:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well it could be someone else running it
00:00:55 <Vorpal> Sgeo, indeed which was why I wondered
00:00:56 <Sgeo> Are you hitting tunes.org servers repeatedly?
00:01:07 <Sgeo> Now I'm ticked.
00:01:22 <Vorpal> elliott, so how does it work then?
00:01:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Its methods do not concern you.
00:01:47 <elliott> Nobody's resources are being taken up I can assure you.
00:02:00 * Sgeo glares at updog suspiciously
00:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, Vorpal, shutup's mechanics are an industrial secret knowledge of which is only permitted to senior HHI personnel.
00:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm genuinely interested
00:02:12 <elliott> I wrote updog in like five minutes Sgeo :P
00:02:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, stop being so silly
00:02:33 <Vorpal> elliott, how many bots do you have on here?
00:02:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Everything but botte! Anyway, this is boring.
00:02:49 <Sgeo> elliott, updog, or the updog part of the script?
00:02:59 <elliott> Sgeo: I wrote the whole program in about 3 minutes.
00:03:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Well *I'm* tlaking about the cube.
00:03:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have we got a TNT kit yet
00:03:42 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=TNT+kit
00:05:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he is talking about a hmod kit
00:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott, also I just checked for you and the answer is no
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00:13:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are the biome-compliant leaves any good?
00:14:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The leaves, I said.
00:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The leaves might well be, but they won't match the grass.
00:14:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 'S just that the leaves I normally use with Painterly have an annoying blue dot on them.
00:15:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's only for one colour
00:17:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you noticed how ugly Painterly coal ore is?
00:18:09 <elliott> ?Just remove the borders from my glass entirely.
00:27:28 <elliott> "Don't you just hate fantasy?
00:27:28 <elliott> Fantasy is boring. It's all about a hero killing dragons or rescuing princesses. And in the end, the hero gets a big reward from some autocratic ruler, and spends the rest of his life banging said princess."
00:27:34 <elliott> --start of a texture pack thread on minecraftforums
00:29:26 <elliott> "Monster Spawners? Uhh... actually, I don't see how to modernize this. I have at least put caution stripes on it so that it's safer, though. (Caution stripes make everything safer.)"
00:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it appears that using LiquidThreads on one's talkpage is now The Hip New Thing at RW.
00:36:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh dear god.
00:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly, they did get rid of those hideous gray boxes.
00:37:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Add a new comment without using liquidthreads and -- jesus christ that is so much UI noise.
00:37:33 <elliott> I look at that and my brain sees "computer".
00:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the _exact point_ I made when it was proposed.
00:38:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me you used the exact words "Pure, raw computer."
00:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Hopefully to the chagrin of many, this page is now running Liquid Threads.]]
00:38:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Halp on the server. I am lost
00:38:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Armondikov/archive
00:38:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He has summarised all his archives.
00:39:01 <elliott> In the most douchebaggy way possible.
00:39:07 <elliott> I really need to stop doing that.
00:39:15 <elliott> DOESN'T MATTER it's still hilariously obnoxiou
00:39:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that the regular server is ... gone?
00:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> When LiquidThreads was proposed she basically said "All of you who don't like it are IDIOTS who CANNOT WORK THINGS OUT because you are SO MUCH STUPIDER than me.!
00:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I failed to realise this a few years ago and this mistake has hounded me since.
00:43:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Has any drainage happened?
00:43:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, I remember when I mocked RW and you went off in a huff. :p
00:43:35 <elliott> BUT WE HAVE CORRUPTED YOU NOW
00:44:06 <elliott> No I take credit thank you
00:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that they couldn't deal with a *single* troll was annoying me.
00:44:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Look up "MarcusCicero" somewhere; the saga is hilarious.
00:44:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Armondikov Look at the wonderful self-quote at the top.
00:44:46 <elliott> tl;dr Privacy is irrelevant because, lol, you gave someone your details so it's everything!
00:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> There have been at least *3* major conflicts over whether or not a self-admitted troll should be blocked.
00:45:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is this WIGO thing on her page and why.
00:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, WIGO CP is the blow-by-blow report on Conservapedia; it spread from there.
00:46:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I find it hard to believe that RW has not already exhausted the finite amount of lulz obtainable from Conservapedium.
00:46:51 <elliott> Well it's basically their driving force isn't it.
00:47:09 <elliott> Wasn't that what sparked its *creation*?
00:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You seriously should look up MarcusCicero: the saga is utterly farcical.
00:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> TL;DR is that the old guard of ex-CP members view blocking anyone at all as being "worse than CP" and refuse to do anything about it.
00:48:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Armondikov/pearls
00:49:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ex-CP members? Don't you mean ex-trolls? :p
00:49:52 <elliott> Then again, one could argue that Conservapedia has actually turned into a satire wiki and its owner is just too dumb to realise that.
00:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, I mean the people who signed up to CP to troll it when it started.
00:50:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ugh @ those pearls.
00:50:54 <elliott> The Internet has destroyed all humbleness.
00:51:25 <j-invariant> "Random quotes that I like. They should be mostly mine, but attributed where possible."
00:51:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You perhaps coming on MC or are you going to bed soon.
00:52:41 <elliott> j-invariant: did you ever get minecraft working btw?
00:53:35 <j-invariant> well I think I would have to buy it to run it
00:54:13 <elliott> j-invariant: classic runs in browser fine with sun jvm
00:54:43 <elliott> j-invariant: but alpha is a totally different game reallyf
00:54:55 <elliott> j-invariant: I would recommend buying it, but I'm biased.
00:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, THINGS TO PUT IN THE CUBE: midair minecart track.
00:55:59 <j-invariant> # Once you've bought the game, it's yours. No DRM. <--- no source code though
00:56:19 <elliott> j-invariant: you can decompile it and make mods, people are crazy enough to
00:56:23 <elliott> there's even a deobfuscator :>
00:56:49 <elliott> j-invariant: no drm isn't strictly true ... it automatically updates on each run ... and if you don't authenticate with the server you can't do multiplayer so updates are pretty much forced. to be clear, notch is a terrible programmer, it's just that the game is /that/ fun
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01:15:28 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/4Sn6v.jpg Holy fucking cube3.
01:18:13 <elliott> fizzie: On ^: "All this to play spleef?"
01:18:25 <elliott> That would be the most epic game of Spleef ever.
01:18:38 <elliott> Holy shit, they did all that digging in a week.
01:24:42 <Sgeo> Was that dug out, or was the bridge and walls built up?
01:24:55 * Sgeo guesses the former, based on what elliott just said, but how can you tell?
01:25:13 <elliott> And because landscape don't come naturally like that.
01:25:28 <Sgeo> You can't build walls like that?
01:25:37 <elliott> It's flat stone with bedrock.
01:27:09 <elliott> Anyone can PM me at any time :P
01:38:40 <Sgeo> elliott, can I trick you into /nick'ing into something starting with Sgeo and mentioning Smalltalk?
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01:44:29 <Sgeo> aw does not trigger shutup
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01:50:19 <cheater99> i have finally found a popular language in which false == 1 and true == 0
01:51:56 <cheater99> did you ever manage to install linux on that laptop?
01:53:36 <elliott> cheater99: because it hates me
01:54:22 <cheater99> i'm sure it doesn't *really* hate you, it might just be a bit hung up.
02:08:52 <cheater99> Debian 6.0 "Squeeze" to be released with completely free Linux Kernel
02:11:35 <elliott> Vorpal: what are the cube coordinates?
02:17:02 <Sgeo> What's in the screenshot?
02:18:47 <Sgeo> The one that had that huge dug-out area
02:19:30 <elliott> Sgeo: some thing on the reddit server.
02:19:44 <elliott> The Cube is a 128x128x128 cube under construction. I believe it is larger than dome3.
02:20:17 <elliott> It is also not on the reddit server.
02:25:07 <Sgeo> Minecarts will crash the Reddit server?
02:25:35 <Sgeo> http://code.reddit.com/wiki/help/faqs/Minecraft#MinecraftSubredditRules
02:26:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Where does it say it will crash the server?
02:26:41 <Sgeo> Hold on, browser's acting up
02:26:53 <Sgeo> "Do Not Use Banned Items Current list is: Water, Ice, TNT, Fire, Tracks and Minecarts. They will crash the server, you will be banned."
02:27:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Where does it say it will crash the server?
02:27:59 <elliott> Sgeo: By crash it means because of server load.
02:28:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover knows there are far more effective ways though. Cough.
02:29:40 <Sgeo> Grr, minecraft's acting up
02:29:59 <elliott> Sgeo: You bought Minecraft?
02:30:17 <Sgeo> I'm playing with classic singleplayer
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02:36:05 <Sgeo> I appear to have hit bedrock rather quickly
02:36:56 <elliott> Sgeo: That's what happens when all digging happens instantly.
02:37:25 <Sgeo> What does current Minecraft do?
02:37:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, different blocks take longer to dig?
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02:38:07 <elliott> Classic is unlike Alpha in many, many ways.
02:41:38 <Sgeo> Oh, I didnt hit bedrock
02:42:04 <Sgeo> elliott, is freezing constantly one of them?
02:42:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, it doesn't freeze, no.
02:42:22 <elliott> Well. It does if you have rendering distance set too far.
02:42:37 * Sgeo hits elliott with a golem
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02:48:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_log_reader: Who is Mei and why are they annoying.
02:51:11 <Sgeo> I have reached some sort of underground cavern
02:51:52 <Sgeo> If it's going to freeze constantly like classic is doing: No.
02:52:19 <elliott> Sgeo: For one you run it outside of your browser.
02:55:59 <Sgeo> Lava does not, in fact, appear to be hot
02:56:29 <elliott> Sgeo: It kills you in Alpha.
02:57:47 <Sgeo> Is TNT useless in classic?
02:59:13 <elliott> Classic is basically a glorified tech demo that is endless amounts of fun if and only if you're the variant of autistic that just makes you want to build pointless structures with no obstacle or goal forever.
03:00:33 <Sgeo> elliott, ... I thought that was what Minecraft was about
03:01:34 <elliott> Sgeo: Shit comes out at night to kill you. You build traps to catch them to get food to restore health and sulphur to make TNT to make cannons and shit to get rid of them. You explore the infinitely-generated terrain and stay alive. You mine for materials and build something awesome while staying alive. You network it all with a minecart network. You go to hell and back. etc.
03:01:48 <elliott> OK, so monsters and health are disabled on our server, but there's still an awful lot of exploring and mining.
03:01:59 <elliott> With classic you can build anything by holding down right click for long enough.
03:02:05 <elliott> It's much more involved in Alpha.
03:02:42 <Sgeo> Wait, worlds are infinitely huge?
03:02:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Well. 4x the size of the Earth.
03:03:11 <elliott> Sgeo: (The coords have to fit into a 64-bit integer.)
03:03:31 <elliott> (And no, it is not possible to get to the edge in less than some hundreds of years.)
03:03:37 <elliott> (And it would probably just wrap around.
03:04:32 <elliott> Less when it was Alpha of course.
03:04:40 <elliott> Sgeo: And that buys you the final game too.
03:05:13 <Sgeo> elliott, ... I have limited ways of getting what little money I have online
03:05:34 <elliott> Sgeo: You're 21. Get a credit card.
03:05:54 * Sgeo will probably try to get a debit card
03:05:59 <Sgeo> Hook it up to paypal
03:06:07 <elliott> You're not going to ask your dad are you.
03:06:27 <Sgeo> I've bugged my dad about it in the past
03:06:33 <elliott> You're 21. Just go and get one.
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03:08:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Honestly. You're an adult.
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03:09:52 <Sgeo> Are there any minable objects with no value in and of itself?
03:11:08 <Sgeo> Any of them used as currency?
03:11:35 <elliott> Sgeo: No. All that it takes to mine anything is time and not much time at that (like 20s for obsidian, way less for everything else).
03:11:44 <elliott> Currency is useless. There is no scarcity. It has no reason to exist.
03:12:20 <Sgeo> It might take a while to find areas where certain things exist?
03:12:42 <elliott> A mountain is bound to contain whatever it is, even if it's diamond
03:12:53 <elliott> Sgeo: But why? What need is there for currency?
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03:32:50 <j-invariant> I never understood why people fixate on decimal representations of things
03:36:34 * Sgeo imagines filling a huge pit with obsidian, leaving a small chute down, and having someone fall in
03:38:10 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OML8FtI_tGk&feature=related what's that blue tower?
03:42:14 <coppro> nooga: A number of the CSC are working on a minecraft reimplementation (official working title: boxes). It will be released once the not-suckage level is reasonable, or probably when they get bored of it
03:42:23 <elliott> Sgeo: Water. That's a really old version though.
03:42:25 <elliott> The game does not look like that now.
03:43:47 <coppro> elliott: also you forgot dbelange
03:43:59 <elliott> coppro: he's your suckpuppet
03:44:06 <coppro> elliott: hahahahahahahahahah
03:44:27 <coppro> elliott: you want to say that to my face?
03:45:49 <elliott> coppro: dbelang is your sockpuppet!
03:47:14 <elliott> Heh, RTF is based on LaTeX.
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04:04:03 <Sgeo> It's possible to build normally in The Nether, right?
04:22:56 <Sgeo> "It has been confirmed that portals do not work in multiplayer yet; while they can be created, they can not teleport you."
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04:58:53 <Sgeo> Obsidian looks.... annoying to obtain
04:59:00 <Sgeo> Mark my words, I will run an Obsidian farm
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06:08:42 <j-invariant> And thus, we get the surprising implication that, if aliens with infinite computational powers came to earth, they could not only beat humans at chess, but could also mathematically prove they were playing chess perfectly
06:10:05 <pikhq> s/chess/$GAME_FOR_WHICH_PERFECT_PLAY_NETS_A_WIN/
06:21:48 <pikhq> int main[] = { 0x0A692568, 0x6AE08900, 0xB8905001, (int)printf, 0x44FFD0FF, 0x7C8104E4, 0x03E804E4, 0xEB7E0000, 0xECAFFEEB };
06:42:09 <augur> nowwhat.net/transfers/RoseFactorizations.png
06:42:14 <augur> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/RoseFactorizations.png
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07:50:06 <Gregor> pikhq: lawl, what platform is that for?
07:50:58 <coppro> j-invariant: surprising?
07:51:10 <coppro> how is chess' solvability surprising?
07:51:18 <coppro> hell, even Go is solvable
07:54:21 <Gregor> In principle, every game with no random element and many games with random elements are solvable.
07:58:29 <coppro> in some games, solvability isn't the point
07:58:39 <coppro> those ones computers will not grasp for a long time
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08:00:39 <zzo38> Chess and Go is obviously solvable if you mean mathematically (rather than practically) by "solvable".
08:17:11 <Gregor> Actually, is that the case? Is there conceivably a game, say with no randomness and infinite states, that is simply unsolvable? (although you could still solve a good enough subset to stump any human of course)
08:17:31 <coppro> Gregor: depends what you mean by solvable
08:17:37 <Gregor> I was just about to say that :)
08:17:53 <Gregor> More precisely, I was going to say "I suppose that depends on what you mean by solvable."
08:18:02 <coppro> I believe if it's infinite, you have the halting problem
08:18:53 <Gregor> I'll say that it's solvable if there exists a program which is guaranteed to win or stalemate against any opponent, where infinitely-recurring-states and any in-game-defined stalemate are stalemates.
08:20:00 <coppro> indeed, then you have the halting problem
08:20:30 <Gregor> Not necessarily, I can easily define games with infinite states but trivial programs to win.
08:20:46 <coppro> the halting problem doesn't mean all programs are difficult to reason about
08:20:55 <Gregor> Although then I guess it starts to depend on your definition of "game", since corner cases are lame 8-D
08:21:26 <zzo38> Gregor: Do you mean the game "My Dad Has More Money Than You", in which there is infinite possibilities but it is easy to always the second player wins?
08:21:32 <Gregor> "Given an infinite tape, both players choose a cell and write a character there at the same time. The first player to write the character 'a' wins. If both characters write the character 'a' in the same turn, it's a stalemate." <-- solvable "infinite" game
08:22:01 <Gregor> zzo38: Idonno that game :P
08:22:07 <coppro> Gregor: int main() { while (false) { } } // solvable "infinite" program
08:22:32 <Gregor> Of course, in my previous "game" the enormous majority of cases are reducible into one, and your program has a single strictly-recurring state.
08:25:09 <coppro> it terminates immediately
08:25:16 <Gregor> Sorry, read it as while true for some reason.
08:25:53 <coppro> any finite game is clearly solvable by a TM
08:26:07 <coppro> but does that extend to infinity?
08:26:15 * coppro doesn't know enough computational theory to say
08:26:15 <Gregor> OK, let us, using our extraordinary #esoteric minds, invent a game which is playable with paper and pencil, has infinite state-space, and we suspect to be generally unsolvable (although it may be solvable for "reasonable" board sizes)
08:26:59 <Gregor> Solvability of things with infinite states becomes very fuzzy, you have to prove you can collapse infinite states into finite states.
08:27:01 <coppro> Gregor: each person has a massive piece of a penrose tiling to start with
08:27:23 <coppro> Gregor: each move is the place one piece of tile, plus any others whose placement is forced by that one
08:27:35 <Gregor> How massive is "massive"
08:27:42 <coppro> Gregor: sufficiently big
08:27:55 <coppro> a player wins when their piece is replicated on the gameboard
08:28:32 <Gregor> ... you mean loses, right?
08:28:49 <coppro> the players' pieces are not part of the board
08:29:23 <coppro> actually I don't know if this one is potentially infinite
08:29:30 <Gregor> Yeah, I don't think it is.
08:29:41 <Gregor> Any state that's bigger than the gameboards is reducible I think.
08:29:55 <Gregor> (To the union of several smaller states)
08:30:16 <coppro> uh, sure, but you still need to get those states to appear on the board
08:30:16 <zzo38> Make a game that is known to be solvable if and only if Goldbach's conjecture is true.
08:30:22 <coppro> and remember, penrose tiling is aperiodic
08:30:36 <zzo38> And then prove it.
08:31:10 <Gregor> coppro: Ohhhh, I see the trick ... that may in fact work, but it's hard to inject strategy into, since I'm betting it'd be nigh-on impossible to guess what will help you :)
08:31:29 <coppro> Gregor: indeed; you didn't say that guessability was a criterion :)
08:31:59 <Gregor> OK, let us, using our extraordinary #esoteric minds, invent a game which is playable with paper and pencil, has infinite state-space, is fun, playable and strategic for humans, and we suspect to be generally unsolvable (although it may be solvable for "reasonable" board sizes)
08:32:23 <Gregor> I'm thinking something with graphs.
08:33:18 <Gregor> Something to do with if you get N in a row, then the opponent has f(N) turns to get N+1 in a row or you win. Then it repeats when they have N+1
08:35:47 <Gregor> So lesse. The gameboard is a giant (infinite) grid, you'd probably need a counter to keep track of turns too, one player starts by placing a single X, and then the opponent has to get two Os in a row within f(1) turns (f to be defined) ... with a few caveats I think we may be on to something doable.
08:36:50 <Gregor> Oh, I should add one more requirement to my giant list above: The game has to be non-random.
08:37:26 <zzo38> I will tell you the "My Dad Has More Money Than You" game: First player says some integer. And then second player says an integer. Whoever says high number wins. Obviously second player can win. But there is an infinite number of choices.
08:37:35 <zzo38> Gregor: Does it also have to be complete information? Or not?
08:37:37 <coppro> Gregor: ah, yeah, I was assuming perfect information
08:38:15 <Gregor> I could go either way, opinions?
08:38:36 <zzo38> Gregor: You can try it both ways to see what happens.
08:38:42 <Gregor> The concern is really solvability, but it feels like a more impressive feat if you have a game that can't be solved and has no information hiding :)
08:39:00 <coppro> I wouldn't look for such a game
08:39:12 <coppro> rather, I'd prove its existence by showing equivalence to the halting problem
08:39:35 <Gregor> The point is to actually PLAY this game at some point too X-P
08:40:40 <coppro> in fact, I have a sketch of the proof now
08:40:50 <coppro> based upon a DFS of the game's state graph
08:42:52 <Gregor> You have no flair for invention :P
08:45:26 <coppro> I like category theory
08:46:06 <zzo38> Now make rock-paper-scissors game with two ducks.
08:46:58 <Gregor> pooppy has gone off into proovy-land
08:47:30 <olsner> Gregor: apparently you're inventing some kind of game of strategy? strategy is boring...
08:48:17 <Gregor> olsner: Then play http://codu.org/wiki/Hydra , it has more randomness :P
08:48:45 <zzo38> Now make a game and prove that any strategy you come up with is provable to be the worst possible strategy that exists (worse than any others), no matter what strategy you select to make this proof.
08:49:27 <Gregor> *worse or equally bad as
08:49:55 <zzo38> Gregor: No. Strictly worse only. No equally bad as.
08:50:25 <olsner> "She's like the Internet with breasts! Oh wait, Internet has breasts." <-- House being funny
08:50:26 <Gregor> zzo38: But nearly any strategy will have an almost-identical strategy with no game-relevant difference that performs equally poorly.
08:51:01 <Gregor> zzo38: Like with my game, always write "b" and always write "c" are equally-bad strategies, and with your game (as the second player), saying the other's number minus one and minus two are equally bad strategies.
08:52:41 <zzo38> Gregor: Then add that as the restriction and then consrtuct a proof for such a game with a proof of non-proof of non-proof of proof with the axiom of choice assuming it is a game with hidden information but no randomness.
08:53:39 <zzo38> First assume the axiom of choice is correct and then assume it is incorrect and then make a game from the results of the proof.
08:55:32 <zzo38> Also, I think if you make it the game has points at the end instead of just win/lose, then, for example, you have whatever number you said is the difference of you (winner's) and the other is your points. Now, there is no best strategy and no worst strategy.
08:56:15 <zzo38> Even though it is still easily the second player wins.
09:03:17 <coppro> I can now switch desktops and invert colors in x simultaneously
09:04:17 <coppro> for not burning my eyes
09:06:08 <Gregor> Ahhhh ... but why does that need to be associated with switching desktops oh of course because everything but your web browser is configured properly to be white-on-black.
09:08:31 <coppro> but have you tried making a browser to white-on-black?
09:08:49 <coppro> everyone and their brother explicitly specifies that the background color be white
09:09:53 <Gregor> And yes, it's impossible.
09:10:01 <Gregor> Hence why I listed that one in particular :)
09:10:31 <Gregor> I actually submitted a bug to Mozilla about problems with their (now, I believe, unsupported) settings to override page colors.
09:10:45 <Gregor> A bug which sat for two years and then was closed as unresolved :P
09:11:14 <coppro> actually, there is a way
09:11:24 <coppro> with !important styling tags
09:11:51 <coppro> !important styling tags in userChrome.css will override anything and everything in a web site's css
09:11:57 <Gregor> Nope, the bug wasn't with getting the colors in, it was with opacity issues resulting from that.
09:13:00 <Gregor> Basically, since divs are by default transparent, if you a) force it to color them black, then you get weird effects when they're supposed to be transparent, or b) force it not to color them, you get unreadable stuff when they're supposed to be opaque.
09:13:16 <Gregor> It didn't have any way to say "Make things which are opaque black"
09:14:22 <coppro> I don't think CSS allows for such a thing
09:14:40 <coppro> so it's not mozilla's fault
09:14:52 <coppro> it's CSS' for not making alpha a separate propertyu
09:14:58 <zzo38> Can you make it turn off alpha transparency and instead select opaque/transparent/background-color based on some simple algorithm to decide?
09:15:09 <coppro> not without JS that is
09:15:17 <coppro> a solid GreaseMonkey script could easily do it
09:26:35 <Gregor> We've lost site of the awesome game :P
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09:44:56 <zzo38> Why is there *no* command in TeX to check if a paragraph contains overfull lines?
09:48:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: I use TeX for many things it is a better typesetting system than most.
09:49:35 <zzo38> I also like the DVI format.
09:49:53 <zzo38> And I can write a program in Enhanced CWEB I can write TeX codes and C codes in the same file.
09:50:21 <zzo38> I think DVI format is simple and superior than PDF or others.
09:50:44 <j-invariant> I haven't studied either but that sounds very likely
09:51:37 <zzo38> PDF format is full of stupid stuff.
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09:52:48 <zzo38> I have figured out how to make a lot of things with TeX. But some things I just didn
09:55:44 <zzo38> I suppose it is possible to do some things by running the job twice and make it parse the log file from the first run.
10:00:42 <zzo38> \begingroup\setbox0=\vbox{\noindent\vrule\par}\endgroup
10:00:50 <zzo38> Is that guaranteed to reset the error count?
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10:21:28 <zzo38> I think I might figure out one way in which we might figure out overfull boxes, because it adds a rule to end of each overfull line (hhox) in a paragraph.
10:22:28 <zzo38> Just before the rule (or at the end if there is no rule) is a \rightskip glue.
10:36:58 <zzo38> It worked: http://sprunge.us/BXSK
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11:47:19 <zzo38> "All indestructible permanents are removed from the game."
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12:56:52 <oerjan> <coppro> how is chess' solvability surprising?
12:58:11 <oerjan> that's not the thing that has been proved
12:58:31 <oerjan> the exact statement is subtle
13:00:01 <oerjan> _if_ the aliens have infinite computational power (possibly more is needed than just to solve chess), _then_ they can convince a human being that they can solve chess perfectly, _in much less time than it would take for a human to understand how to do it_
13:02:58 <oerjan> or to rephrase, even if solving chess takes exponential time, they can convince a human of their ability to do it, in polynomial time
13:03:52 <oerjan> (it has not actually been proved that solving chess _does_ take exponential time, P ?= PSPACE is still a major unsolved problem)
13:37:03 <oerjan> hm this iwc is confusing, there are two parallel visits to the same room of hitler's headquarters, both iirc in 1940, but they are _not_ bumping into each other?
13:37:22 <oerjan> of course today's one's _are_ time travellers, but still...
13:42:02 <j-invariant> I think it uses the same variable name for different variables in its output
13:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, I think Agda is a fairly nice experiment in dependent types which is under the regrettable delusion that it is a proof assistant.)
13:43:56 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: do you know parametricity?
13:46:10 <j-invariant> have you ever noticed there are some things which are quite obvious just from the type of a function (but they can't be proved without looking at the definition) e.g. f :: [a] -> [a] can't "inspect" the elements 'a' because there are no typeclass constaints.. so map g . f = f . map g?
13:46:42 <j-invariant> or another example swap :: (a,b) -> (b,a) -- you know exactly what it does but you can't prove it unless you use the definition
13:51:17 <j-invariant> well then the idea of parametricity is to get these theorems (the ones that come just by inspecting the type)
13:51:59 <j-invariant> The language here implements it http://hackage.haskell.org/package/uAgda-1.0.0.1
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13:53:19 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: anyway I think one could make very good use of this parametricity
13:54:44 <elliott> 20:04:03 <Sgeo> It's possible to build normally in The Nether, right?
13:54:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Uh, not really. The terrain is not very conducive.
13:54:55 <elliott> 20:58:53 <Sgeo> Obsidian looks.... annoying to obtain
13:54:55 <elliott> 20:59:00 <Sgeo> Mark my words, I will run an Obsidian farm
13:55:01 <elliott> It's not; you just need lava and water; and impossible.
13:55:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, with hmod's /sethome, /home and /spawn and loads of buckets you can construct very quickly.
13:56:41 * Phantom_Hoover wishes Epigram 2 was further along in its development.
13:56:50 <Sgeo> elliott, to mine obsidian, you need a diamond pick-axe, which requires diamond, which requires an iron pick-axe, etc.
13:57:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Mining obsidian is a folly.
13:57:06 <elliott> Sgeo: You create it in-place.
13:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> My plot to have Edwin Brady kidnapped in order that I might then kidnap Conor McBride is regrettably dead in the water.
13:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Operative says that I might as well write Epigram myself and says that effort of kidnapping Brady is greater than required to do so.
13:59:22 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: you and elliott should learn mu Agda
13:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Operative knows nothing of the nature of Epigram and as such cannot be swayed from this position.
13:59:39 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't build a fireplace in a wooden house
13:59:43 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjSWPxJxNs
13:59:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Kidnap me a fucking Ph.D., then."
14:00:33 <j-invariant> elliott: did you read the scrollback, I just explained the key feature of muAgda
14:00:40 <elliott> j-invariant: totalling doing so now
14:00:51 <j-invariant> elliott: I think I've figured out how to do quotients with it...
14:01:43 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: just like when you create modular arithmetic out of the integers using the equivalence relation
14:02:00 <elliott> 01:04:14 <coppro> it's very useful
14:02:00 <elliott> 01:04:17 <coppro> for not burning my eyes
14:02:00 <elliott> lol @ people who think that white on black hurts eyes less
14:02:05 <elliott> lern2contrastandbrightness
14:02:45 <elliott> 01:46:16 <j-invariant> zzo38: how did you get interested in TeX?
14:02:45 <elliott> 01:48:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: I use TeX for many things it is a better typesetting system than most.
14:02:45 <elliott> 01:48:20 <j-invariant> thdat's why I use it too
14:02:49 <elliott> j-invariant: you probably use LaTeX
14:02:57 <elliott> zzo38 thinks LaTeX is a horrible bloatware scourge ;)
14:03:13 <elliott> everything is a horrible bloatware scourge
14:03:22 <j-invariant> I don't even know which bits are TeX and which are LaTeX
14:03:32 <elliott> j-invariant: LaTeX is ... most of it
14:03:37 <elliott> j-invariant: raw TeX has nothing "semantic"
14:03:41 <elliott> it's all just raw formatting commands
14:03:42 <Sgeo> elliott, how is the Nether not conducive to building?
14:03:45 <elliott> and most of them don't take arguments
14:04:00 <elliott> Sgeo: because the terrain sucks
14:04:23 <Sgeo> So just flatten it or something first
14:04:39 * Sgeo just wants to build a cannon for high-speed transport in the Nether >.>
14:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, there are exactly 3 building materials available.
14:04:49 <elliott> 05:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, I think Agda is a fairly nice experiment in dependent types which is under the regrettable delusion that it is a proof assistant.)
14:04:52 <elliott> you stole that opinion from me
14:04:54 <j-invariant> surprised me! you just have to cabal install some deps
14:05:03 <elliott> j-invariant: lemme logread first
14:05:17 <elliott> Sgeo: um cannons can't make you travel fast ... and flattening the nether would involve MAJOR mining
14:05:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMJo_UNrtyo&NR=1
14:05:32 <Sgeo> Although the guy does die at the end
14:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover> A large area of flat terrain upon which you can build.
14:06:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Notice how he goes straight up.
14:06:11 <Sgeo> Thought that you can't die on your server
14:06:19 <elliott> Sgeo: If you have no health, then just swim across the lava...
14:07:26 <elliott> j-invariant: i will install uagda
14:07:40 <Sgeo> You need to mine out Obsidian to make portals...
14:07:44 <elliott> j-invariant: in return i expect you to figure out how to boot ubuntu on this >:D
14:07:50 <elliott> Sgeo: you just need buckets of lava and water.
14:08:10 <elliott> "Why Lisp is a Big Hack (And Haskell is Doomed to Succeed)" This post is going to be shit.
14:08:36 <elliott> j-invariant: stupid quote of the day: "(When I say Haskell, I'm not only speaking about Haskell per se, but also about all the FP languages in its halo, like Ωmega, Agda, Epigram, ...)"
14:08:58 <elliott> j-invariant: it's written by a lisper nothing they say makes any sense
14:09:20 <Sgeo> If you want to speak about FP languages, say "Functional languages"
14:10:29 <elliott> Linking dist/build/cmdargs/cmdargs ...
14:10:30 <elliott> ld: warning: in /opt/lib/libiconv.dylib, file was built for unsupported file format which is not the architecture being linked (i386)
14:10:37 <elliott> j-invariant: get ubuntu working and i'll be able to install uAgda
14:11:01 <j-invariant> elliott: The only way I ever got ubuntu to boot was off a CD - and it had to be a specific older version
14:11:37 <elliott> well i have booted ubuntu off a usb stick but it was on an older machine
14:11:47 <elliott> so bleh... i'll get it working later
14:11:53 <elliott> guess what i get to do now THAT'S RIGHT rebuild things!
14:12:08 <j-invariant> "I want to be able to test a incomplete program, even if it hasn't been type checked fully" *_*
14:14:24 <elliott> j-invariant: i honestly think all the lispers are desperately clinging at ways to say they're more expressive and interaction and rapid development than all these blasted new bondage and discipline languages ... kinda sad really :p
14:14:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Notch codes so badly that a 10FPS speed boost is trivial: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=123503
14:17:19 <j-invariant> frankly, stuff like Haskell isn't strong enough for me
14:17:51 <j-invariant> I don't know how /anyone/ sucessfully programs in that language
14:19:19 <j-invariant> even with extensions like SHE I can't do what I want
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14:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming you aren't writing run-of-the-mill programs.
14:24:34 <j-invariant> with a sufficiently good dependently typed langauge we shouldn't have to re-implement the same nonsense a million times
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14:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I would still like recommendations on new computery things.
14:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> NB: I still have no idea whether or not I would like a laptop or desktop.
14:39:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you actually ever use it elsewhere.
14:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I move rooms occasionally, and I am forced to go to Ireland most holidays...
14:40:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is your current laptop insufficient for those purposes?
14:40:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Buy a desktop then,
14:41:06 <elliott> There's electricity in Ireland. I think.
14:41:51 <Vorpal> elliott, are you sure?
14:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, IIRC there wasn't broadband in the specific village I stay in until fairly recently.
14:42:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this crash bug you mentioned, have you reported it?
14:43:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt fizzie would like that.
14:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> And the house within the village remains landlineless.
14:43:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It's teleportation.
14:43:42 <elliott> Besides, his fix would probably be... very ... interesting.
14:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, he is clearly unable to fix it competently.
14:43:51 <elliott> Also it's useful just so long as nobody else finds out ever. For our personal use.
14:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> For another, can you imagine what would happen if a serious griefer got their hands on it?
14:44:23 <elliott> Yes. The reddit creative server would go down every five minutes.
14:44:28 <elliott> And then what would we do Phantom_Hoover!
14:44:31 <elliott> But I am sure that will never happen.
14:44:42 <elliott> Thing That Would Be Much Nicer If Minecraft Did Antialiasing: the Tronic pack.
14:45:09 <Vorpal> can you file a CVE against any sort of software (no I'm not about to do that, just the thought of a CVE against minecraft sounds hilarious)
14:45:13 <elliott> It's nice, so long as you only look at things from the right angle.
14:45:32 <elliott> Vorpal: But in this case "full disclosure" means "full anarchy".
14:45:43 <elliott> Ordinarily I woul dapprove, but Notch is just so helpless.
14:46:01 <elliott> Csomething Vsomething Esomething.
14:46:11 <Vorpal> elliott, usually they tell the vendor a few days before the full disclosure iirc
14:46:22 <elliott> Vorpal: That's one of the infinity "Responsible Disclosure" policies.
14:46:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Full disclosure, the most common practice, is instant full disclosure.
14:46:44 <elliott> Vorpal: This is for the best because if history proves anything, it's that vendors really don't give a shit.
14:46:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The entire Mojang workforce would be dedicated to fixing it before we made it public.
14:47:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They'd probably throw legal threats at us or something.
14:47:27 <elliott> It's ILLEGAL to reveal that! You're a bad person!
14:47:30 <elliott> You're letting the terrorists win!
14:47:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you tried the Tronic texture pack, btw?
14:47:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's my single-colour texture pack, except actually nice.
14:47:55 <elliott> Vorpal: http://evilmousestudios.com/tronic/
14:48:06 <elliott> Vorpal: See screenshots at the bottom.
14:48:23 <Vorpal> quite nice, but I think I'll stick to painterly
14:48:48 <Vorpal> elliott, hm is tronic "high res"? Or is it just the smooth colours that make it look that way?
14:49:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I think those screenshots have been cubically downscaled though.
14:49:10 <elliott> It's more jaggedy in practice.
14:49:24 <elliott> Painterly is kinda nice but I get the feeling (and drama on /r/Minecraft) agrees that the creator doesn't really know what they're doing.
14:49:28 <Vorpal> mc: the only context where 32x32 would be called HD during 2011.
14:49:33 <elliott> The defaults are... really inconsistent, for one.
14:49:40 <elliott> Plus, a lot of them don't tile really well.
14:49:55 <elliott> Also, I think they're working on the individual tiles without thinking about how they fit into the world.
14:49:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Painterly is kinda nice but I get the feeling (and drama on /r/Minecraft) agrees that the creator doesn't really know what they're doing. <-- fitting. Nor does notch.
14:50:09 <elliott> Sure, X is really pretty, but when you have a gigantic world of X, Y and Z, it's just too noisy with detail.
14:50:27 <elliott> Somewhere in-between would be nicest.
14:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott, you have to customise painterly to get a good result
14:50:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but I can't stand the default cobble
14:50:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I have cobble that looks like little circular markings (not perfect circles) on stone.
14:50:55 <Vorpal> elliott, probably the same
14:51:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you have painterly's water enabled?
14:51:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's really nice but you need mcpatcher to do it. Or manually editing the jar.
14:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, last I looked it said it required some "non-standard" mod and it seemed like more work.
14:51:48 <elliott> Vorpal: "non-standard"? It's easy, you just run the jar, pick the pack, and check a few boxes.
14:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=123503 ... tried it?
14:52:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope. It's incompatible with Better Light.
14:52:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Also it makes no difference on multiplayer.
14:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, because single player is pretty much unplayable in beta for me.
14:52:54 <elliott> Results seem good from all responders.
14:53:02 <elliott> Vorpal: And the technical details look sound (and prove how stupid Notch is).
14:53:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder what META-INF is and why it should be deleted. Hm.
14:53:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Some cache I think.
14:53:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it stores, like, a directory? Don't ask me.
14:54:12 <elliott> fizzie: Can I make the map in mcmap turnable-off by an option? Amusing, I know, but I play fullscreen and so can't really use the map, but //goto is super-useful.
14:54:13 <fizzie> META-INF contains the .jar metadata.
14:54:18 <fizzie> The manifest thing thing.
14:54:24 <elliott> Failing that I'll just fork or something. Or rewrite it in ML. :p
14:54:28 <Vorpal> elliott, can't it be minimised?
14:54:33 <Sgeo> ". In vanilla Minecraft, the entire list is sorted by distance from the player every frame"
14:54:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Still takes up CPU.
14:54:37 <fizzie> Though the name "mcmap" makes it a bit silley.
14:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, not very much you claimed!
14:54:41 <elliott> If I disable the map don't need to keep track of chunks do I?
14:54:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, I use Better Light, Far, and Fancy.
14:55:04 <elliott> Vorpal: *Any* CPU is lots of CPU for me.
14:55:04 <Sgeo> Why doesn't the patch help in multiplayer?
14:55:22 <elliott> Sgeo: Because chunks update when the server decide.
14:55:33 <elliott> Maybe I'll make my own texture pack that's like Painterly but less ornate.
14:56:17 <elliott> fizzie: Does //goto need to know what chunks are around? Only for "omg no sky", right?
14:56:25 <fizzie> Only for that check, right.
14:56:48 <fizzie> It currently barfs if you try to invoke it from a chunk it hasn't seen.
14:57:01 <elliott> fizzie: Welp, us no-mapsters don't need no safety.
14:57:19 <fizzie> A more healthier sort of //goto would need the map for route-planning.
14:57:31 <fizzie> (The sort of an auto-walk style //goto.)
14:57:33 <elliott> Do not goto while pregnant.
14:57:53 <elliott> fizzie: I'll also commit my make-it-work-on-OS-X fixes and *oh* joy I just realised I have to rebuild glib.
14:59:54 <elliott> Incy-dentally, keeping track of these compiles is quite a pain: http://sprunge.us/eXUZ
15:00:08 <elliott> I think I might just abandon this manual stow system. In fact, yes, I will. Goodbye, /opt.
15:00:17 <elliott> Someone give me Ubuntu. Or a stiff drink.
15:00:37 <Vorpal> elliott, so stow wasn't good then?
15:00:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Stow itself performed perfectly; compiling everything by hand was not fun.
15:00:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Especially as glib is 32-bit only or something for god knows what reason or I don't know and ugh.
15:01:19 <elliott> I don't care what Homebrew recommends I'm installing it into /opt, like a decent person.
15:01:20 <Vorpal> elliott, blame OS X for crazy 64-bit situation
15:01:35 <elliott> Vorpal: "Crazy"? It's about as sane as a pure 64-bit migration can be (i.e. not very).
15:01:49 <Sgeo> elliott, you're a compiler now?
15:01:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well why did they go 32-bit on intel at all?
15:02:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Because Core 2 wasn't out yet ...
15:02:25 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact the first test Mac Pros given to developers were Pentium 4-based.
15:02:30 <elliott> Vorpal: The first released Intel Macs were based on Core.
15:03:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Quick lesson: Core is based on the Pentium M architecture. Core 2 is based on the Core architecture. No not Core 2, Core.
15:03:20 <Vorpal> elliott, yet linux managed to go 64-bit without all this mess. Sure there was still some problems but mostly from programmers messing up int, long and void* during a lot of years.
15:03:29 <elliott> Core is not based on Core, Core 2 is based on Core, and Core 2 has no relation to Core, but it is built in Core.
15:03:58 <Vorpal> elliott, are there two different things called "Core"?
15:04:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Core[CPU] is not based on Core[arch], Core 2[CPU] is based on Core[arch], and Core 2[CPU] has no relation to Core[CPU], but it is built on Core[arch].
15:04:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Linux transitioned to 64-bit by way of "take something like 7 years to do it".
15:04:28 <elliott> Not really a viable business strategy.
15:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, incidentally, shouldn't //goto fail if you try to enter the Cube?
15:04:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It does. Usually.
15:04:47 <elliott> fizzie: Why does world have a capital .C on the end.
15:04:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
15:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, actually... I ran 64-bit back when you still ran into the "stored pointer into an int" kind of issue daily. And really that was the only major portability issue. I could just patch it and store it in a portage overlay and file a bug (yes I ran gentoo back then)
15:06:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Guess what isn't an option for OS X users?
15:06:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Patching it and storing it in a portage overlay.
15:07:23 <fizzie> There shouldn't be any capital .Cs.
15:07:35 <Vorpal> elliott, but anyway, if you can recompile the software then migration is pretty swift. The vast majority of the software that isn't JITing or similar will probably work. (possibly after changing an int to a long somewhere or such)
15:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: Possibly OS X's fault.
15:07:50 <fizzie> There are none in the github web-view.
15:08:01 <elliott> fizzie: Well, HFS is case-insensitive, so lulz happen
15:08:20 <Vorpal> elliott, not capital C for me
15:08:26 <Vorpal> elliott, it's on your side yeah
15:08:50 <elliott> /usr/local/Cellar/git/1.7.3.4: 965 files, 18M, built in 51 seconds
15:08:52 <elliott> Gotta wonder why it tells me that.
15:08:57 <Vorpal> cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-fnested-functions"
15:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's an island of 3 pre-Halloween chunks surrounded on all sides by post-Halloween terrain for at least 5 chunks on all sides.
15:09:00 <elliott> "Oh man, 51 seconds! I'd better optimise my C compiler!"
15:09:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what is this about?
15:09:08 <elliott> Vorpal: God DAMMIT, Apple.
15:09:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Apparently when they decided to turn off nested functions by default (why?) they added an option to turn it back on that nobody else has!
15:09:36 <elliott> GUESS THE MAKEFILE'S GOTTA USE UNAME
15:09:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well it doesn't exist on any gcc version I have (4.3, 4.4 and 4.5)
15:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Appropriately profanity-laden commit pushing now.
15:11:25 <Vorpal> elliott, why not just a "checking if compiler has -fnested-functions" thing? ;)
15:12:04 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a bug in Apple's compiler, it doesn't need to be worked-around cleanly :P
15:12:18 <elliott> Vorpal: That's basically what's wrong with autoconf: it checks for features; it should check for bugs.
15:12:44 <elliott> Vorpal: And checking for bugs (which it calls features) never works because everyone's bugs are subtly different so it ends up basically checking what compiler you have in a really roundabout, slow way.
15:12:59 <elliott> Because, dammit, people play Minecraft on SunOS and they want to use mcmap.
15:13:50 * elliott decides he's getting too sane, takes a look at useful.make.
15:14:06 <elliott> $(objdir)/$(1): $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.o) Makefile | $(objdir) ; \
15:14:06 <elliott> $(call do-template,LINK,$(objdir)/$(1),$(cc.link) -o $(objdir)/$(1) \
15:14:07 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I now want to try this with some compiler that will error on -std=gnu99
15:14:07 <elliott> $(if $(cleaning),,-include $(2:%.c=$(objdir)/%.d))
15:14:13 <elliott> I don't remember writing that.
15:14:15 <Vorpal> I wonder what icc will do
15:14:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what does it mean?
15:15:25 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/types/comments/ev708/the_dialectica_interpertation_in_coq/c1b9pfa
15:15:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it means Zalgo.
15:15:37 <elliott> Vorpal: But, um, that's the rule for linking a C program.
15:16:03 <elliott> Vorpal: $(1) is the final program name, $(2) are the C files, space-separated.
15:16:21 <elliott> It's relatively easy to figure out if you know that but, yeck.
15:16:29 <elliott> j-invariant: sounds like cock
15:16:32 <Vorpal> elliott, downside of useful.make: simple to use but you are left completely clueless should you ever do something that makes it break ;)
15:16:33 <elliott> j-invariant: which is a colloquial term for penis
15:16:47 <elliott> Vorpal: ABSOLUTELY. And I wrote it!
15:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well you could probably manage it. But anyone else?
15:17:18 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I had to debug useful.make when I first put it into practice and it was impossible.
15:17:40 <elliott> j-invariant: wow that Coq code is really elegant
15:17:47 <elliott> i'm going to kill him and steal his powers
15:17:55 <elliott> *kill him, steal his heart, and absorb his powers
15:17:55 <j-invariant> elliott: makes me happy that the comment is -1
15:18:08 <Vorpal> elliott, at least a simple self-contained makefile tends to be easy to understand.
15:18:14 <elliott> well it's /r/types, more highbrow than the other reddits :P
15:18:25 <Vorpal> simple = fits on a screen, or at most two
15:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really. Nobody truly understands what Make does.
15:18:34 <elliott> Vorpal: They think Make works logically, and interpret the Makefile accordingly.
15:18:45 <elliott> But in fact it is only for now that their view coincides.
15:18:50 <elliott> Soon Make will ravage them with its incomprehensibility.
15:19:40 <Vorpal> elliott, "# This code is licensed under the WTFPL, version 2" <-- how could they possible need a second version?
15:20:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I forget what version 1 was.
15:20:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it was literally just the sentence "You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO."
15:20:21 <elliott> Vorpal: And then Sam Hocevar made the expanded version.
15:20:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Only v2 is FSF-certified :P (On a mailing list!)
15:20:49 <elliott> [[An interesting side-anecdote. I was talking to Bradley Kuhn
15:20:49 <elliott> last year sometime, and he says the FSF's folks had to laugh and agree
15:20:49 <elliott> that "DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT" is a valid Free Software license (I
15:20:50 <elliott> think they had received a submission with that string attached). I
15:20:52 <elliott> suggested that perhaps a useful short license with indemnification of
15:20:54 <elliott> warranty could be "Do what you want, but it's not my fault!"]]
15:21:24 <j-invariant> why are klingons and vulcans and humans so similar?
15:21:52 <elliott> j-invariant: because the human form is pure perfection^Uactors are cheap
15:22:07 <Vorpal> j-invariant, because it's cheaper that way yeah
15:22:49 <Vorpal> j-invariant, budget most probably
15:23:02 <elliott> [[On rape, the left still doesn't get it
15:23:02 <elliott> I admire Julian Assange for his work on WikiLeaks, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that he has committed sex crimes]] --Guardian article
Wow, yes, it's pure coincidence that the allegations appeared RIGHT AFTER Assange became a public figure! The fact that one of the women involved published an insane "guide to revenge" including mentioning accusing someone of rape if they cheated on you (IIRC) — who cares! Silly leftist
15:23:26 <elliott> I wonder why the Guardian likes to hire someone stupid to write an article every now and then.
15:23:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover linked to that anti-mathematics-education one a while back.
15:26:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, that wasn't someone stupid they'd hired as a one-off.
15:26:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I know that.
15:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> That was Simon Jenkins, one of their most prominent columnists.
15:26:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't mean they actively hired.
15:26:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHY AM I TERRIBLE AT SENTENCES
15:27:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I was using it non-literally in a case where it makes perfect sense to use "hire someone stupid to" literally.
15:30:25 -!- j-invariant has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:31:31 <elliott> fizzie: Is opt exposed to the other files?
15:34:20 <fizzie> elliott: Not yet, but you can make it to be.
15:34:43 <elliott> fizzie: I might just if I can forget my revelation of the past few seconds that everything in the code is tied to the map :P
15:35:05 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that nautral for something called mcmap?
15:35:07 <fizzie> Well, it *is* called "mc*map*", it might be a bit map-oriented.
15:35:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
15:35:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Well I don't WANT to have to fork it and call it sml-mc-instant-server-crasher!
15:36:00 <elliott> Otherwise Phantom_Hoover_ would be unstoppable.
15:38:05 <Vorpal> why is packet_format in .data and not .rodata btw?
15:38:24 <Vorpal> means it can't be shared between multiple instances (har har)
15:38:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:39:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it that almost every non-trivial C project ends up with a header named something like common.h, global.h, shared.h or such...
15:39:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Because files suck.
15:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, also hfs being case insensitive sounds like it would really make a mess of the unix semantics. Besides wouldn't it be locale dependent?
15:41:17 <elliott> I did not know that SoyLatte was X11-based.
15:41:28 <Vorpal> elliott, how does HFS handle the German ß (isn't it ss in lower case or something?)?
15:41:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Unix semantics aren't case-sensitive AFAIK. And I think it uses the same algorithm always.
15:41:50 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:mcmap ehird$ touch ß; mv ß ss
15:41:50 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:mcmap ehird$
15:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what about ö vs Ö ?
15:43:47 <Vorpal> elliott, and once you leave the latin scripts, things get really messy
15:45:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, well, it is based on HFS, as in 1984 HFS.
15:45:41 <elliott> Vorpal: They were going to change to ZFS but then ... didn't.
15:45:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well right. But at least back during pre-OS X era they didn't try to shoehorn it into unix
15:46:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Better than Mac OS Classic :P
15:46:30 <Vorpal> elliott, certainly, but at the file system isn't really fit for something unixy
15:46:37 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't : still forbidden in filenames?
15:46:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, you can put : in a filename just fine. It'll show up as / in Finder though.
15:47:15 <elliott> Vorpal: This is actually pretty useful to name things with /s in them X-D
15:47:26 <elliott> Finder translates back automatically, so you can name files foo/bar.
15:47:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder what is actually stored in the fs
15:48:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I imagine it's translated to : and back at the POSIX layer.
15:48:18 <elliott> Which I imagine is separate from the underlying FS implementation.
15:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Things like iTunes at least as of a year or two ago would actually show the paths to audio files using the : notation if you can believe that.
15:48:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well I imagine it is stored as a / on disk though, to not break compatibility with old HFS and MacOS
15:48:46 <elliott> Mac OS Classic heritage, woo
15:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact the issue seems to be that if you changed it now you would break compat compared to previous OS X versions
15:49:38 <Vorpal> in fact, impossible to change without breaking compat at the point of change.
15:49:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Mandatory conversion step :P
15:50:02 <Vorpal> I can imagine they want to avoid it.
15:51:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I think the best option would be to make a new char for path separator. That way there is no conflict
15:51:40 <Vorpal> like, a new unicode codepoint
15:51:50 <Vorpal> for efficiency it should probably be stored as a NUL though
15:52:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Or how about we store everything as objects!!1111
15:52:23 <elliott> Vorpal: The problem with improving filesystems is that if you go too far the filesystem disappears :P
15:52:50 <Vorpal> elliott, while I'm all for what you suggest fitting that into a "traditional" OS sounds.... painful
15:53:33 <elliott> If you complain it doesn't exist yet, it's useless until you own a large SSD anyway :P
15:53:47 <Vorpal> elliott, sure. But apple is not going to switch OS X to use that overnight. Especially since not a single line of code of it exists anywhere
15:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott, why not what?
15:55:24 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal: -m now takes the map out of mcmap, leaving mc.
15:55:31 <Vorpal> elliott, Even if it is (I don't want a discussion about that atm, it's all too subjective anyway), since when has large companies ever been sane and perfectly rational at compsci.
15:55:43 <elliott> It should do something like "use much less memory and CPU".
15:55:45 <Vorpal> case in point: ipv6 migration. Companies are not perfectly rational.
15:56:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Clearly Apple should become an anarchist commune?
15:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, so -m means that it just sits there and listens for //goto and //coords?
15:56:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And lets you chat/read chats from the console.
15:56:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no good answer to that statement.
15:56:58 <elliott> Vorpal: What you're saying is YEP INDEED
15:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but it still links to SDL. You should make it a compile time option, no?
15:57:14 <elliott> Does it matter if it links to SDL?
15:57:26 <Vorpal> elliott, no it definitely isn't!. What I'm saying is closer to "undefined"
15:57:45 <elliott> mcmap actually does "while (1);" right now.
15:57:50 <elliott> So by "less CPU usage" I mean "full CPU usage".
15:58:04 * Sgeo watches videos on moulding obsidian
15:58:17 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as you don't break the traditional map stuff
15:58:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, in real life? or mc?
15:58:46 <Vorpal> hm yeah I doubt you would mould it in real life
15:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Incidentally, would it be better to place lava into water rather than douse some lava in a mould?
15:59:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, that way you just need a flooded chamber open at the top.
16:00:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I think it sounds harder to do it that way. Specifically it sounds tricky to get it in the right place
16:00:18 <elliott> Interestingly mcmap still shows as not responding ...but it only uses 0.1 CPU. And 7 megabytes of real memory.
16:00:31 <Vorpal> elliott, does it work in map mode?
16:00:45 <elliott> I didn't actually test it but there's no reason it shouldn't.
16:01:22 <elliott> Pushed a non-98%-CPU-usage patch.
16:01:29 <elliott> Only relevant if you use nomap really.
16:01:33 <Vorpal> elliott, better check to make sure
16:01:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, it's mcmap tradition to not test commits in any way whatsoever.
16:01:47 <Vorpal> (not when compiling a C++ program with -j2)
16:02:02 <Vorpal> (specifically debug build of llvm)
16:02:07 <elliott> Technically I broke the rules even by checking that no map popped up.
16:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, FWIW, I think using that method placing obsidian is as simple as placing any other block underwater.
16:02:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, trickier to deal with if you make a mistake though. Not as simple as simply bucketing it up again.
16:03:23 <elliott> obsidian misplaces are fatal anyway
16:03:37 <Vorpal> elliott, hardly. But they are annoying
16:04:09 <Vorpal> elliott, mining obsidian is after all very slow
16:05:00 * Sgeo imagines building huge minecraft tracks in the Nether
16:05:09 <Sgeo> When will the Nether be available in multiplayer?
16:05:19 <Sgeo> erm, minecart tracks
16:05:40 <Vorpal> hm what are the monster spawning rules in nether. Surely not the same light level as for the "real world"?
16:06:23 <elliott> The server has been so kwiet recently.
16:06:35 <elliott> Portals are apparently going to teleport to other servers by default.
16:06:48 <elliott> You could maybe do a mod for it, but it'd be very involved. OTOH Notch might add portals that go to the Nether in SMP anyway.
16:07:11 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
16:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do two server. A normal one and a nether one. No?
16:07:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes, but inventory would not transfer, would it?
16:07:27 <Sgeo> Your source for "<elliott> Portals are apparently going to teleport to other servers by default."
16:07:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well, who knows
16:07:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I think I read something about he planned to make it possible to configure servers to trust a list of other ones
16:08:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Better if he never even realised the potential. Start local server, gift yourself TNT ...
16:09:00 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't it even require configuring of which server was the teleport target anyway?
16:09:05 <Sgeo> How difficult is it to obtain sulfur?
16:09:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes. But it'd be quite easy.
16:09:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Kill creepers or find it in a dungeon.
16:09:25 <elliott> On our server, ask HHI; get laughed at.
16:09:47 <elliott> You could also ask Vorpal but he'd probably ask you what you've done and follow you around for days rather than just laughing at you.
16:10:15 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't ghasts drop sulphur too?
16:10:26 <elliott> Uh, maybe. Killing creepers is easier and less traumatising.
16:10:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "Turns out the team that made Father Ted were Irish! Ireland is now officially better than England." ~~~~~~~~Notch
16:10:45 <elliott> (Note: The more ~s I use, the more sarcastic I am being.)
16:10:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Hoover Heavy Industries.
16:11:53 <Sgeo> Do creepers and ghasts even exist on the server?
16:12:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo, HHI is Phantom_Hoover_'s and elliott's fictional joke company. Specialising in uncompleted projects based on observational data.
16:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> The HHI reserves were made in about 20 minutes by elliott using a duplication glitch.
16:12:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: CLASSIFIED.
16:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, actually, HHI was originally founded in order that ROU abandonment would be easier.
16:13:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Also t'was more like 15 minutes.
16:13:25 <Sgeo> Do dungeons exist?
16:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I haven't added to it ever since I realised there wasn't a hope in hell of MoveCraft working with something that huge.
16:13:48 <Sgeo> I assume that's where elliott got the initial sulphur?
16:14:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think he named it officially before beta added the labels
16:14:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I REFUSE TO LISTEN TO AN IDIOT WHO DOESN'T KNOW CHEMISTRY
16:14:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It's TNTnamite.
16:16:12 <Vorpal> maybe it is a different TNT
16:16:31 <Vorpal> that stands for Tsulphur aNd sandT or something
16:16:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah. I blame notch
16:17:10 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmw7JfsNzoY
16:17:17 <elliott> An educational program about Tsulphur.
16:17:24 <Vorpal> third world war? blame notch. End of world? blame notch
16:18:26 <Vorpal> lost car keys? guess who to blame! That's right, Notch.
16:19:04 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, no, but planning to
16:19:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No. He's obsessing about it first.
16:20:07 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.ehow.com/how_4777739_debit-card.html
16:20:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Note lack of step 1, "ask father"
16:24:23 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/10/20/mind-blown-minecraft-to-link-servers-with-portals/
16:26:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> No, that will either a) never happen or b) it will happen and mining will break.
16:26:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: What will never happen.
16:27:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I think it relies on a list of trusted servers.
16:27:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, hm?
16:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, we have a portal sitting near spawn. It doesn't work.
16:28:06 <elliott> It does make noises though.
16:28:49 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, we have a portal sitting near spawn. It doesn't work. <-- I suspect he thought linking servers would be easier than making the server handle two worlds
16:29:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I hate how the Nether transition isn't seamless.
16:29:17 <Vorpal> elliott, because it unloads and loads yes
16:29:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Couldn't he load a few Nether chunks etc. when you come in the vicinity of a Nether portal, in the background?
16:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, probably due to global state messing up
16:29:46 <Vorpal> (probably same reason for servers)
16:30:36 <elliott> SOMEONE GET ON MINECRAFT ORELSE
16:31:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: classic maps could be 2048x2048x2048 if you had infinity ram.
16:32:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19PZA1tnKtg
16:32:28 <Sgeo> There's a ceiling in MC?
16:33:01 <Sgeo> How far above that can a player go?
16:33:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, however far he can jump above it I guess?
16:34:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, hm, surely it doesn't use bignum though?
16:34:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, meaning something will hit a limit
16:39:13 <Sgeo> Obsidian is TNT resistent?
16:40:39 <Vorpal> yes, it takes a huge amount of TNT *at once* to break obsidian iirc. And that amount would probably crash minecraft anyway.
16:40:40 <elliott> fizzie: How many packets would I need to handle to get //coords working with nomap?
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16:47:34 <Vorpal> elliott, is that fastrender thing open or closed?
16:47:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Closed like everything, but you can decompile it.
16:50:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: downwownwonw
16:51:04 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160
16:51:38 <elliott> Vorpal: compatible with FastRender too
16:52:07 <coppro> elliott: when it's dark, white on black hurts less than black on white, because there is less contrast with surroundings
16:52:10 <Vorpal> elliott, looks interesting. My saves backup is >100 MB in disk size. Less than 50 MB in actual file length.
16:52:22 <elliott> coppro: that's why your monitor has a contrast setting
16:52:23 <Vorpal> (not going to check exact values with du atm, it takes too long)
16:53:01 <coppro> elliott: I'd love if you could show me where it is
16:53:10 <elliott> coppro: probably somewhere in your settings.
16:53:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: you on the server?
16:53:32 <coppro> elliott: that's software
16:53:37 <elliott> coppro: that controls hardware
16:54:17 <Vorpal> coppro, is it a laptop? If not the monitor probably has a "menu" button or such
16:54:38 <Vorpal> coppro, then I would check in monitor settings
16:54:40 <coppro> elliott: you said my monitor has a setting; you are wrong
16:54:59 <elliott> coppro: it is just not exposed via buttons
16:55:14 <coppro> that's too much work then
16:55:41 <elliott> the fact is your display has a setting
16:58:17 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how the brightness buttons on my thinkpad are handled in linux
16:58:38 <Vorpal> they are by fn and clearly goes to the OS
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17:00:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: First generation?
17:01:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You mean you've been there before?
17:01:40 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160#p1742827
17:01:42 <elliott> "Erm.. whos Amdahl lol xD?"
17:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't find contrast control on my thinkpad btw
17:04:33 <Vorpal> I wonder where ubuntu hides it
17:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, googling yields no useful results either
17:07:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: TREEHOUSE
17:08:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: We could life of the fatta tha land!
17:08:53 <Vorpal> elliott, tree house eh? sounds fun
17:09:07 <elliott> Vorpal: We found a nice tree.
17:09:43 <elliott> ""The Basic Texture pack is developed for people who own slow computers or suffer from lag, giving you and your computer a better time, while retaining the minecraft feel."
17:09:54 <elliott> This idiot thinks that making textures have more solid colours makes the rendering go faste.r
17:10:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite
17:10:52 <Vorpal> elliott, the beta tree rules are "within 4 blocks of a log, and connected to the log by leaves (or directly)" iirc
17:10:56 <elliott> http://www.adkins-online.com.au/minecraftbasic/; site requires Flash so I can't see it.
17:11:05 <Vorpal> which differs from the old leaf rules in alpha-with-decay
17:11:41 <elliott> This pack seems nice, FWIW: http://www.largames.com/games/games-in-general/160-largamesminecraft.html
17:13:17 <ineiros> elliott: No Skyping this week. I'm still at work at the moment.
17:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, Christ, the Basic texture pack spells "normal" as "normle".
17:13:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Notch quality.
17:14:15 <coppro> my god microsoft is retarded
17:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> It also speaks of "test's" and that it runs "with out" computers running "slowley".
17:14:26 <coppro> "let's make phones upload up to 50 MB of data each day"
17:14:32 <coppro> what can possibly go wrong
17:15:14 <Vorpal> coppro, they did that? uploading what sort of stuff?
17:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, FWIW, people claim to have FPS rises when using it.
17:16:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: People claim homeopathy works.
17:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, yes, but this is actually objectively measurable.
17:17:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: But has it been objectively measured?
17:18:41 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, well, the FPS is hard to get wrong, although I doubt they understand rigour.
17:19:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Same scene, actions etc.
17:20:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: M... m... may... shut up.
17:20:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It's not even going to be single-colour!
17:21:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Not sure whether it'll be 16x or 32x; probably 16xl
17:24:30 <Sgeo> "Water cannot be found in The Nether and water from a bucket will evaporate as soon as it touches anything in there."
17:24:43 <Sgeo> Does that include, say, cobblestone made by a player there?
17:24:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Just a texture pack.
17:24:53 <Sgeo> If so, it's impossible to mould a portal in the Nether
17:25:08 <elliott> Sgeo: You mine your old portal. And actually you probably can wtaer your own blocks.
17:25:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I can name it when I see what it looks like
17:25:18 <Vorpal> elliott, show me some screenshots
17:25:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Haven't started yet :P
17:25:31 <Sgeo> elliott, can't mine your old portal without diamond pickaxe anyway
17:25:38 <Sgeo> Well, if you want the obsidian back
17:25:40 <elliott> Sgeo: So get a diamond pickaxe.
17:25:43 <Vorpal> elliott, can't name it then. A hd pack might need a different name than a 1x1 pack
17:25:56 <elliott> Vorpal: 16x. Like Painterly, just less cluttered and not stupidly ornate.
17:27:27 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Water#Infinite_Spring_Duplication is this deliberate?
17:27:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Who cares, it's damn useful.
17:27:58 <Sgeo> If it's not deliberate, it might be removed
17:29:39 <Vorpal> I believe it is deliberate
17:30:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, when it comes to notch such a thing means very little
17:30:23 <elliott> Looking at the Minecraft font... it's code page 437.
17:30:26 <elliott> Welcome to the 80s, Notch.
17:30:44 <elliott> Verry tempted to try and replace it with the actual code page 437 font now.
17:30:58 <elliott> Except I think the dimensions are different.
17:31:24 <Sgeo> Is even someone like Notch capable of writing code that causes new water sources to be made like that accidentally?
17:31:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Notch is capable of all bugs.
17:31:58 <Vorpal> the booster thing started as a bug I think
17:33:09 <elliott> You know what would be an awesome pack?
17:33:12 <elliott> The default one, but shuffled randomly.
17:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, the faster render thing helps a bit. 5-10 FPS or so. None of those huge speedups that some people reported in comments. And you still get a lot of "jerks" in the gameplay
17:33:47 <elliott> The internet is full of jerks, silly.
17:33:49 <Vorpal> which is the primary thing making it unplayable in single player atm
17:33:57 <Vorpal> elliott, .... different meaning of the word :P
17:34:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Try the region mod?
17:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah might later
17:37:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the thing is, I get those jerks even if I don't move. it is enough to pan the view between a chest and workbench in front of me. So chunk loading doesn't sound like it.
17:37:45 * Sgeo watches someone build a house
17:37:54 * Sgeo decides that he wants to build a swimming pool
17:39:11 <Vorpal> elliott, btw built a gate in single player. Gate as in "castle scale" gate with portcullis and so on.
17:40:22 <Sgeo> Vorpal, well, I'll make a larger one
17:40:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well no. Not without some mod that makes fence posts and redstone interact
17:41:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll take a screenshot shortly
17:41:26 <elliott> Sgeo: do you actually growl.
17:41:50 <Sgeo> About as much as I actually hit you just now
17:42:41 <Vorpal> elliott, mcmap map mode seems broken btw
17:42:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I just tried it
17:42:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably I said opt.nomap where I meant !opt.nomap
17:43:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the window pops up, then login hangs
17:44:31 <elliott> coppro: He growls, he must be.
17:44:43 <elliott> Also Phantom_Hoover_ has SOLID EVIDENCE of him being in a FURRY SUIT.
17:45:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: What a sick, sick fetish!
17:45:53 <augur> you know, i think of all of us, elliott is the only one who can be reliably said to be likely to growl
17:46:14 <augur> only its an incidental growl thats intended to be a grumble
17:46:16 <Vorpal> elliott, the gate btw: http://ompldr.org/vNnR5aA/2011-01-03_18.43.47.png
17:47:29 <Vorpal> maybe I should add another semi-hidden layer of fence on top
17:48:15 <elliott> I could really do with a zip mounter.
17:48:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, not a castle. Just a checkpoint in a pass between two high mountains
17:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> FWIW, I have actually made significant progress on my SSP world.
17:48:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, the location was perfect for it
17:48:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Set it to HARD.
17:49:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Makes things more explody and longer-living.
17:49:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, for castle I go obsidian instead.
17:49:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I have a completely secure shelter and mine; I never get mobs within 5 metres of me.
17:49:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Do you *ever* explore?
17:50:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: How utterly boring.
17:51:13 <elliott> OH MY GOD MAKING TEXTURE PACKS IS SO HARD
17:51:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, this is somewhat outdated: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.26.07.png
17:51:28 <coppro> THE COMPUTER IS MY FRIEND
17:51:29 <Vorpal> (the thing is significantly larger now)
17:52:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, also there is a nether portal just inside. Ends up right next to a huge lava lake. Which used to be even huger
17:52:43 <augur> elliott: i wrote a scheme preprocessor that will do a form of CPS on delimited continuations using zippers :T
17:52:44 <coppro> elliott: you are insufficiently happy, citizen
17:52:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite a chore still. Considering the dimensions of it
17:52:49 <coppro> being insufficiently happy is treason
17:53:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, see this too: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.21.47.png
17:53:07 <augur> elliott: dear god what? :P
17:53:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, also floor is obsidian a bit inwards (not the hole bottom floor yet, though that is the plan)
17:53:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I changed that since I took those screenshots
17:53:35 <augur> elliott: finish that thought please
17:53:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I was low on iron back then
17:53:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And dirt below it no less.
17:53:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, due to all the buckets
17:53:59 <elliott> "So here we have the soil ... and then we put some obsidian on top of it."
17:54:02 <elliott> "Lots of obsidian in fact."
17:54:12 <augur> elliott: oh wait, you hate scheme right? well, it'd work for CL too
17:54:29 <augur> oh i dont know, you confuse me
17:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, fizzie did build a bunker which can be blown wide open with a lucky hit from a creeper.
17:54:34 <Vorpal> elliott, quite. But since floor is obisidian it will at worst end up as a floating box (well, the middle of the floor is currently cobble in part)
17:54:35 <augur> its really just an sexp manipulate
17:54:37 <fizzie> elliott: For //coords you need to handle those PACKET_ENTITY_* it already handles, plus PACKET_PLAYER_MOVE and PACKET_PLAYER_MOVE_ROTATE.
17:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, and I checked with TNT next to wall, it doesn't quite reach up to the stone sections :)
17:55:17 <Vorpal> elliott, besides I will have a moat OF LAVA around the fort.
17:55:42 <augur> anyway, elliott, it takes expressions like this: (+ 1 (reset x (* 2 (shift x (- 3 x)))))
17:55:45 <Vorpal> elliott, not really now
17:56:01 <elliott> augur: but you can do delim continuations with real continuations. you prolly know that
17:56:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect that much TNT would reach up to the stone section anyway
17:56:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, whyever not what?
17:56:40 <augur> elliott: oh yes, but the point was to do delimited continuations without any magic
17:56:44 <augur> and to do it with a preprocessor
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17:56:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, ... right and demolish everything around it
17:56:52 <augur> and to do it syntactically via zippers
17:56:54 <augur> it was an exercise
17:57:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, probably down to the minecart system level even (which is at around alt 28 or something such)
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17:58:22 <elliott> YOR NOT MENT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT
17:58:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, this is single player...
17:58:44 <fizzie> elliott: Your latest nomap change managed to remove the proxy-thread creation completely when !opt.nomap.
17:58:52 <augur> elliott: im teaching a sort of SICP++ to a friend
17:59:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I told him it was broken several minutes ago
17:59:03 <elliott> augur: has he actually read sicp
17:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, the point is that if Mt. Vorpal is attacked, the bunker will be floating in midair.
17:59:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I don't see the issue with that
17:59:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, apart from it being attacked is an issue
17:59:31 <augur> elliott: we're using it as source material. its mostly SICP, and then some stuff beyond sicp but bolted onto the SICP model
18:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, so when you decide to rebuild the world after ineiros' attack you will step outside and promptly fall to your death.
18:00:21 <augur> elliott: so like, we're going to implement a primitive pattern matching system on top of the interpreter, and use that as a springboard to discuss unification
18:00:37 <augur> elliott: we're also going to use it as a springboard to discuss ADTs
18:01:02 <augur> generic operators will give us a means of getting into type systems
18:01:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, anyway for my other single player world I devised a much better way to build a fort. Obsidian for a tiny ladder shaft up from ground. to the fort, which is "balanced" on this shaft. And which doesn't need to be in obsidian
18:01:08 <augur> i fucking love ADTs, can i just say
18:01:11 <Sgeo> Can mapping stuff be used with multiplayer stuff?
18:01:25 <augur> i love ruby but there are so many times when i wish it had ADTs
18:01:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, then I would have to build on top of bedrock :P
18:01:46 <augur> elliott: meh. i like it. but i wish it had GADTs and types
18:01:54 <elliott> augur: and didn't have mutability.
18:01:55 <Sgeo> SMP = Survival MultiPlayer?
18:02:02 <elliott> augur: and was functional.
18:02:03 <augur> elliott: i dont mind the mutability.
18:02:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, takes far to long to reach in an emergency
18:02:52 <augur> elliott: i mean, i use mutability sparingly anyway, but when i do its in a sort of .. whats the word for it
18:03:05 <augur> single-reference object?
18:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Note: I am putting this into Mt. Hoover so don't you dare steal it.
18:03:21 <augur> i mean i use mutability when the mutated object is private, so to speak
18:03:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, anyway speaking of that gate, I think it would be cool to build a castle on that scale.
18:03:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, though even that gate took several hours in game time (and it's solid, though cobble inside, not stone)
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18:04:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well duh I need torches yes. So?
18:04:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, or wait
18:04:14 <coppro> why are we in #minecrack
18:04:15 <Vorpal> not the future castle?
18:04:26 <augur> i mean, i probably use mutability elsewhere, but its usually in that form. i tend to use mostly functional style in ruby anyway
18:04:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, what on earth is/are that/those?
18:05:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I was thinking a vasaborg. Whatever those are called in English
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18:05:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: HHI needs an IRC server.
18:05:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/%C3%96rebro_castle_in_Sweden.jpg
18:05:58 <augur> elliott: did i tell you, chris barker was at UMD in november
18:06:15 <augur> elliott: hes pretty cool
18:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> OTOH, obsidian would be the logical replacement for basalt here...
18:06:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/EdinburghCastle.jpg
18:06:43 <augur> elliott: because of him, i now understand the reader monad
18:06:48 <augur> but only moderately!
18:07:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, if so... far too ornate.
18:07:01 <elliott> augur: it's the same as the (->) monad
18:07:11 <augur> elliott: it is, but now i understand that! :)
18:07:33 <augur> Phantom_Hoover_: not hard at all!
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18:07:54 <augur> Phantom_Hoover_: frame of mind
18:08:33 <augur> i generally come to understand things by analogizing them to their equivalents in linguistics
18:08:37 -!- elliott has joined.
18:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, well, it'd be something to do with a map editor, at least initially.
18:09:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well sure. I'm not going to use a map editor
18:09:19 <augur> Phantom_Hoover_: so its hard for me to sort of .. grok the typical haskellish discussion
18:09:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, mine will be stone I guess. When/if I make it.
18:09:43 <augur> i also need very ground up explanations; i still dont understand monad transformers properly, despite philippa's efforts
18:09:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: What is he doing.
18:10:07 <elliott> augur: Monad transformers are ... really simple.
18:10:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, will model it one one of these I guess: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Kalmar_slott.jpg or http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/%C3%96rebro_castle_in_Sweden.jpg
18:10:27 <augur> elliott: so im told, but they havent yet fit into place in my mental picture of things
18:10:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, no, I'm not. I'm considering doing that.
18:11:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, also you plan to make Edinburgh castle? Good luck, it looks rather complex.
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18:11:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well. It's my single player game. I'll let you do whatever you want in your :)
18:12:04 <augur> elliott: i have a very visual tendency when trying to understand code, and its very hard for me to visualize monad transformers
18:12:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, besides "A motte-and-bailey is a form of castle situated on a raised earthwork and surrounded by a protective fence" <-- the MC fence would look tiny and silly in this context
18:12:38 <elliott> augur: sry but when I hear "visual learner" i hear "idiot" :}
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18:13:30 <augur> elliott: i dont know if im a "visual learner", i just tend to visualize a computation
18:13:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: nothing, but "visual learner" almost always means "unable to think abstractly".
18:13:59 <augur> oh yes, symbols definitely
18:14:07 <augur> but i need to see how the symbols FLOW
18:14:26 <augur> i cant just look at a definition and understand it
18:14:37 <augur> i mean, i could grind through it
18:14:48 <augur> but i wouldnt intuitively get how to make it anew
18:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I was going to suggest printing and then using tap water
18:14:55 <augur> elliott: im working on it xP
18:14:58 <augur> its hard to get you know
18:15:04 <Vorpal> elliott, though, I doubt that works with laser printers
18:15:22 <elliott> augur: I suggest you do it alone! And next to the computer with all your files on.
18:15:28 <elliott> augur: You'll probably end up dying but it'll be hilarious for the rest of us.
18:15:38 <elliott> Or worse, wiping your disk.
18:15:46 <augur> elliott: "with all your files on" what?
18:15:53 <elliott> augur: So I could end with "wiping your disk".
18:16:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, the "garbage on map because of torch" is because when you put a torch at Y=127, it sends block-set messages for Y=128 to "change" that block to air.
18:16:27 <augur> you probably WOULDNT end up wiping the disk, actually
18:16:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm but why did it happen at y=125 then too?
18:17:09 <fizzie> It seems to send those pretty randomly whenever you are high altitudes.
18:17:17 <elliott> augur: Admittedly doing something stupid and dying sounds more likely.
18:17:26 <augur> elliott: not really
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:35 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:35 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,127,9) -> 4
18:17:32 <fizzie> 19:24:36 block_change: (5,128,9) -> 0
18:17:37 <fizzie> Perhaps it's just best not to wonder.
18:17:53 <augur> elliott: people generally dont do stupid things and die when on LSD
18:18:04 <elliott> augur: No, but they do it more often than they rm -rf /
18:18:22 <augur> elliott: i'd need to see a study to believe that!
18:18:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that for placing /one/ torch?
18:18:47 <elliott> augur: "Remove... recursively... forced... root" vs "Ooh it's cheese. Oh the cheese is hollow. Ooh wind. This is ni"
18:18:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, one cobblestone. And it was just a snippet, there were about 6 more lines.
18:18:56 <elliott> (Depiction of LSD 100% ACCURATE)
18:19:08 <oerjan> <augur> .. beard <-- yeah, SURE...
18:19:23 <augur> oerjan: well hes more of an otter anyway, right, so.
18:19:28 <elliott> augur is like 3 years old he can't grow a beard
18:19:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, some waste data there heh
18:19:37 <elliott> oerjan: what line is that from
18:19:48 <augur> elliott: me talking about chris barker just five minutes ago
18:19:54 <augur> he has an awesome beard
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18:31:54 <augur> scrap your boilerplate looks really interesting
18:35:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: it's not my fault that IEEE numbers don't obey the rules of predicate logic with equality
18:35:47 <oerjan> elliott: that was the joke
18:35:57 <elliott> oerjan: objectivists don't joke
18:37:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: impossible
18:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> (The one objectivist I have met uses the terms "socialist", "communist", and "fascist" completely interchangeably.)
18:38:31 <augur> well that person was stupid
18:39:01 <augur> its like words dont have meanings anymore T_T
18:39:18 <elliott> augur: all objectivists are stupid
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18:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> HHI's research department should be moved to a midair fortress.
18:56:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: On top of Mount Vorpal.
18:57:17 <Vorpal> elliott, you are just trying to troll me by suggesting that. I know you won't do it.
18:58:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: When you went on leave to a luxurious Mount Vorpal holiday and demoted me, I climbed up the ranks slowly.
18:58:24 <elliott> Then when you rejoined, the reanks realigned; you're INFERIOR CEO, I'm CEO.
18:59:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I think doing it right on top of ineiros's tower is better
19:00:08 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover_> WHO IS THE CEO HERE <-- * oerjan gets a calvin an hobbes treehouse backflash
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19:00:36 <Vorpal> elliott, no and I don't have time to discuss further. bbl
19:00:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "Discuss".
19:00:54 <elliott> That was some discussion I had with Vorpal there!
19:01:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Make some!
19:03:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: We could build it around his two gigantic waterfalls.
19:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, giving Vorpal easy access to this facility is not an option.
19:03:54 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:05:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: OK, I suggest we construct it entirely out of obsidian, from level 128 downwards, and then empty out the entire space below it, such that to enter, you have to jump down to bedrock, solve a redstone puzzle, go in a boat elevator, and then enter an iron door.
19:05:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Sure, you could build a gigantic path from ground to there, but you'd have to break through obsidian.
19:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, cobble tower to the necessary level, then use the normal entrance.
19:06:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Impossible.
19:06:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The entire path upwards is coated in obsidian.
19:07:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: i.e., thin obsidian tower up like 64 levels, and then the actual facility.
19:07:08 <elliott> The actual facility is completely covered.
19:07:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And if you're going to say "But you could get in by just breaking two obsidian!", well, that applies to EVERYTHING.
19:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> My ideal method of access would be to install MoveCraft and have an HHI airship.
19:08:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Yeeeeees.
19:08:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: So, let's get a shitload of lava and water.
19:09:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Any ... ideas for that?
19:10:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: See /msg.
19:23:09 <nooga> minecraft refuses to work on my ubuntu
19:25:47 <fizzie> FWIW, "java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp /path/to/Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame" seems to work fine on this Ubuntu 10.10 w/ the default openjdk-6-jre 6b20-1.9.2-0ubuntu2; but that's just me, I've heard people complain about OpenJDK before.
19:26:09 <fizzie> The memory limits could be bigger too.
19:26:56 <nooga> it just blackscreens
19:27:18 <fizzie> I hear sun-java6-jre works more reliababbely.
19:27:40 <elliott> nooga: doesn't work in browser
19:27:51 <nooga> http://timashley.me/node/596
19:28:56 <fizzie> Looks like manually swabbing lwjgl versions.
19:29:19 <nooga> that's what i'm trying to do after jars download
19:30:42 <elliott> nooga: use sun jvm. also, you pirated it, didn't you?
19:31:22 <nooga> i wouldn't pay for something i can;t try
19:31:29 <nooga> and it does not work properly
19:31:41 <elliott> nooga: um, yes, because all the pirated ones are ancient.
19:31:41 <nooga> if i like it i will buy it
19:31:45 <nooga> if not - i will remove it
19:31:51 <elliott> nooga: um, yes, because all the pirated ones are ancient.
19:31:54 <elliott> which is why it doesn't work
19:32:03 <elliott> anyway _nobody_ gives a shit because you whine about Minecraft sucking constantly.
19:32:28 <nooga> this looks like 1.1_02
19:37:00 <fizzie> 1.1_02 sounds like a beta version number to me.
19:41:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: see game.
19:41:11 <nooga> 1.1_02 fully working
19:57:36 <nooga> now suddenly it's dark and i can't find coal for a torch
19:57:53 <nooga> am i supposed to sit in my shelter til morning comes?
19:59:43 <nooga> how long is the night?
20:00:23 <elliott> nooga: as long as the day. well, almost.
20:00:38 <elliott> like 7 minutes + a bit vs. 10 minute day
20:08:26 <nooga> hollow in a hillside
20:08:40 <nooga> i closed the entrance with dirt
20:08:57 <elliott> nooga: You might want a door.
20:09:05 <elliott> Also, make sure it's not too big a hollow; monsters can spawn in small spaces.
20:09:18 <elliott> You probably want a torch.
20:12:31 <Vorpal> nooga, you might want to play on peaceful to learn the game mechanics. Just a suggestion.
20:12:51 <elliott> nooga: Don't; Vorpal is a wimp.
20:14:11 <Vorpal> nooga, hm. look on cliff sides for black dots, or underground as elliott suggested.
20:15:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, of the entire game. Hm quite true.
20:15:54 <nooga> i'm in a dark cavern with no light
20:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> You need either nice terrain or enough time to set up a mine
20:16:41 <nooga> how do i respawn/die anything?
20:17:06 <Vorpal> nooga, you die by getting killed. then you respawn at start with inventory dropped where you died.
20:17:16 <Vorpal> note: objects on ground time out.
20:17:26 <Vorpal> not sure if they time out if the chunk is unloaded
20:17:31 <nooga> i don't want to weit
20:17:36 <Vorpal> or if it only counts down when the chunk in loaded
20:17:37 <nooga> guess i'll start over
20:18:04 <Vorpal> nooga, I still suggest peaceful to figure out the game. Even though elliott says it is wimpy
20:18:20 <elliott> nooga: P.S. place doors from outside.
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20:29:17 <nooga> doors from outside?
20:31:53 <elliott> don't place them from the inside.
20:32:16 <elliott> nooga: you can fight monsters if you place them from outside
20:32:17 <nooga> i can imagine that monsters will be able to open them
20:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> Notch has no problems with making things pointlessly harder.
20:35:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Soon they will be solving redstone puzzles.
20:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh, god, when will \sqrt{-\Garfield} stop that goddamn meme.
20:36:27 <nooga> what am i supposed to do at night?
20:36:37 <nooga> can i at least mine?
20:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Although you don't want to leave areas of the mine in darkness.
20:36:59 <elliott> nooga: Yes. Make sure to keep all caverns well-lit because monsters can spawn in them.
20:37:10 <elliott> nooga: You can also go outside as long as you have a lot of armour and a goodsword.
20:37:37 <elliott> nooga: If you start expanding your realms by exploring in the day, you can mark your path with torch and then build underground minecart tracks at your convenience; so you can visit your territories at night, too.
20:37:54 <elliott> nooga: And you can always build, so long as you don't go too close to the wrong parts of the surface.
20:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> I have actually taken direct hits from a creeper with trivial damage.
20:38:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, um, yeah, if you have decent armour you can go crazy.
20:39:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It's actually pretty safe at night if you have a good sword, full armour, and some food.
20:42:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The problem is that getting to that stage is ... tedious.
20:45:40 <nooga> it's already day but monsters are out
20:47:21 <elliott> nooga: If you mean creepers, they stay. Forever.
20:47:28 <elliott> nooga: If you mean spiders, they're peaceful in the day unless you attack them.
20:47:33 <elliott> But at night... they'll go rabid again.
20:47:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Info from minecraftwiki.
20:47:56 <elliott> During the day, Spiders become passive, and will not become aggressive unless they are attacked. When spiders are in a passive condition, their eyes do not glow red. The player will not receive damage if they touch them. Spiders become aggressive again as soon as night falls or if the player moves into darkness. If they were chasing the player during the night, they will usually continue to chase them during daylight.
20:48:07 <elliott> But I prefer to think they just go elsewhere.
20:48:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: They certainly don't disappear in one day.
20:48:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Hey... mobs don't spawn on half blocks or glass.
20:49:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Build tall wall around huge area. Fill huge area with half blocks.
20:49:25 <Vorpal> elliott, or just light it up?
20:49:40 <elliott> Vorpal: SHUT YOUR MOUTH, THIS IS BETTER
20:50:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't place torches on halfblocks. Nor minecart tracks or anything else that needs to rest on them.
20:50:43 <Vorpal> elliott, but filling with glass sounds more fun
20:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't place anything on glass either :P
20:51:05 <elliott> Vorpal: But you just build all those in your fortress and underground obviously.
20:51:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but at least placing solid blocks on top won't look like they hover on top
20:51:27 <elliott> Vorpal: That would look awesome.
20:51:41 <elliott> "Ghasts aim at the camera, not the player. Going into 3rd person mode and having a ghast fire a fireball at you will go over the player, given the right camera angle."
20:51:51 <Vorpal> elliott, .... what the fuck
20:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't that be more work
20:52:18 <elliott> The camera is an object I think, so no.
20:52:18 <Vorpal> elliott, in the ghast case you have to think it might be intentional
20:53:21 <nooga> light repels them?
20:53:34 <Vorpal> elliott, do they spawn in light area in nether?
20:53:44 <elliott> Vorpal: They spawn in any light area, yes.
20:53:51 <elliott> nooga: You mean normal monsters?
20:53:55 <elliott> They only spawn in low light.
20:53:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what about dark areas in nether?
20:54:02 <elliott> They'll walk happily onto high light if they can ofc.
20:54:06 <elliott> Vorpal: They spawn anywhere in Nether.
20:54:57 <elliott> I wish forcing antialiasing worked in OS X for Minecraft.
20:56:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't work /well/ on linux
20:58:29 <elliott> The .app is 32-bit only on OS X.
20:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, does it get worse or better performance wise?
20:59:18 <elliott> Same I think. But maybe Java was ignoring -sever because I had -d64 -server.
20:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't -server make performance worse iirc?
20:59:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Slower startup, *much* faster running.
20:59:55 <elliott> That's why it's called server: for long-running processes.
21:00:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe it's different for MC but I doubt it.
21:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott, on linux too?
21:00:14 <coppro> what does -server do? pre-optimize?
21:00:31 <elliott> coppro: different runtime entirely
21:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: only has server I think, but I'm not sure
21:01:06 <elliott> do java -help to see the vms :P
21:01:06 <Vorpal> -server to select the "server" VM
21:01:06 <Vorpal> The default VM is server.
21:01:54 <fizzie> -server to select the "server" VM
21:01:55 <fizzie> -cacao to select the "cacao" VM
21:01:55 <fizzie> -zero to select the "zero" VM
21:01:55 <fizzie> The default VM is server.
21:02:09 <fizzie> Maybe it's some sort of a startup script thing?
21:02:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, same for me on ubuntu
21:02:47 <coppro> I can't believe how tiny the PS3 root key is
21:02:55 <elliott> fizzie: Cacao is IcedTea I think.
21:03:03 <elliott> Why does MC break when ran through OpenGL Profiler? Sigh.
21:03:10 <Vorpal> elliott, why not call it -icedtea then or such? :D
21:03:20 <elliott> Vorpal: IcedTea = OpenJDK + Cacao.
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21:04:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you see that castle-gate screenshot above btw?
21:04:22 <coppro> http://c1.complang.tuwien.ac.at/cacaowiki/FrontPage
21:05:57 <fizzie> I would think http://www.cacaovm.org/ is more like their "front page".
21:06:26 <coppro> obsidian is a horrible construction material
21:06:29 <fizzie> icedtea-6-jre-cacao, "Alternative JVM for OpenJDK, using Cacao"; that is indeed where it comes from.
21:06:39 <Vorpal> coppro, in real life or in mc?
21:07:04 <coppro> although it's fantastic for making blades out of
21:07:04 <Vorpal> coppro, well I can imagine that
21:07:12 <elliott> coppro: it's pretty though.
21:07:17 <Vorpal> coppro, since when was minecraft realistic?
21:07:31 <coppro> A well-crafted obsidian blade can have a sharp edge with a thickness of 3 nanometers!
21:07:32 <elliott> It is more realistic than real.
21:07:34 <Vorpal> elliott, obsidian is a kind of volcanic glass!
21:07:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Obsidian should be SEETHROUGH
21:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't in real life really
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21:08:05 <fizzie> Interestingly I don't have openjdk-6-jre-zero installed, but it still shows up in -help. (The -zero flag doesn't work, though.)
21:08:09 <coppro> it's a beautiful stunning black
21:08:16 <elliott> coppro: A see-through black.
21:08:19 <Vorpal> elliott, not as in window glass...
21:08:36 <Vorpal> elliott, glass as in the lack of crystalline structure
21:08:54 <fizzie> "Zero is a port of OpenJDK that uses no assembler and therefore can trivially be built on any system. The goal of this project is be to be able to build a TCK-compliant OpenJDK of reasonable performance on any platform with no additional porting work. -- [and it also has] an LLVM-based JIT known as Shark."
21:08:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, actual seethrough.
21:09:14 <elliott> fizzie: My life is enriched with this information.
21:09:22 <elliott> fizzie: I shall now devote a life to learning about JVMs.
21:09:32 <fizzie> It's a sort of a silly name.
21:09:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, since you didn't reply to if you saw it or not: http://ompldr.org/vNnR5aA <-- from one of my single player games. It is built in the pass between two hard to climb mountain ranges.
21:10:07 <fizzie> Yes, no: I did not see it.
21:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> 64 metre high mountains? Seas that are never deeper than your average lake?
21:11:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you mean the generated terrain or the fact that it is based on 1 m³ blocks?
21:11:32 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/cacaocraft
21:11:36 * coppro bugs the boxes devteam
21:11:47 <coppro> LOG: [0x00007f83d5834700] vm_abort: WARNING, port me to C++ and use os::abort() instead.
21:12:24 <Vorpal> the error makes no sense indeed
21:12:31 <fizzie> "Error: no `zero' JVM at `/usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/amd64/zero/libjvm.so'"; I'm not sure I want to install it just for that.
21:13:00 <nooga> an exploding prick killed me when i was trying to mount door
21:13:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, lower terrain below ground level around mountain and you can get up to 128 high mountains
21:13:38 <fizzie> 127-metre mountain is still a bit on the "lame" side; even Finland has higher hills than that.
21:13:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite
21:14:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, but imagine how slow it would be with even more data per chunk?
21:14:43 <fizzie> elliott: Well, zerocraft works but it's slooow.
21:14:51 <fizzie> (But not slooooow, just slooow.)
21:14:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, only to be expected
21:15:00 <Vorpal> elliott, how many FPS?
21:15:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can get fps with f3 btw
21:15:17 <elliott> nooga: Yeah, uh, don't be stupid. Stay away from them. Keep hitting them and retreating if you're daring
21:16:58 <elliott> Rite, I'ma try 'ttaching instead.
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21:17:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, ~30fps, but it goes <10 quite often, and at completely 100% CPU usage; nonzerocraft gives me stable-ish 40-60fps with ~40% CPU load.
21:19:01 -!- elliott has joined.
21:19:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, your computer is better than mine then. No surprise there.
21:20:52 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=18446744073709551615+-+18446744073709551611&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=kT0iTfj9GNSJhQfthLW2BQ
21:21:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it was also a reasonably simplistic indoor scene, and I wasn't moving around a lot. It's not always quite so smoothly animated.
21:22:39 <elliott> fizzie: You know what Minecraft needs?
21:22:44 <elliott> A 2D interface, like Dwarf Fortress.
21:22:50 <elliott> And mcmap, come to think of it.
21:22:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, I get 40 FPS while looking at an empty sky. With 60% CPU
21:22:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, in single player that is
21:23:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, more in multi-player
21:23:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I get 40-50 fps in multiplayer with far/fancy/better light in a window.
21:23:29 <Vorpal> elliott, floating point math I presume
21:23:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes my desktop is dated
21:23:50 <Vorpal> elliott, the gpu load is probably not high
21:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, how many FPS do you get in glxgears?
21:23:59 <elliott> Full screen — 32/35 to 40.
21:24:03 <fizzie> There's that 2dcraft, but it's a clone (and some sort of weird .net thing), not a minecraft UI.
21:24:27 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc I get 8000-10000 FPS in glxgears
21:24:27 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) I doubt that is very easy to obtain on OS X; (2) glxgears is so far from being a benchmark that it's not even funny.
21:24:30 <elliott> fizzie: But it's not 3D like Dwarf Fortress.
21:24:42 <Vorpal> elliott, true it isn't a benchmark.
21:24:47 <elliott> Wait, I have glxgears. But it's X11-based of course.
21:24:50 <elliott> So no point running it at all.
21:24:59 <elliott> 3140 frames in 5.0 seconds = 627.893 FPS
21:24:59 <elliott> 3780 frames in 5.0 seconds = 754.286 FPS
21:25:01 <Vorpal> elliott, no opengl acceleration in X on OS X?
21:25:07 <fizzie> glxgears framerate depends quite a lot on window size, too.
21:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably, but it's still massive overhead.
21:25:13 <elliott> fizzie: Indeed; that was with the default size.
21:25:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I assumed standard window size
21:25:19 <elliott> Vorpal: But it's not even _close_ to a benchmark.
21:25:29 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Glxgears_is_not_a_Benchmark.
21:25:33 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed it isn't
21:25:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and I know that
21:25:36 <elliott> "So to summarize, glxgears only tests a small part of what you typically see in a 3D game. You could have glxgears FPS performance increase, but your 3D game performance decrease. Likewise, you could have glxgears performance decrease and your 3D game performance increase."
21:25:45 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to get the default window size here, since it's a tiling VM. Maybe if I float it it'll assume the default size.
21:25:59 <elliott> Right. Usually they're funny.
21:26:09 <fizzie> 44781 frames in 5.0 seconds = 8956.168 FPS
21:26:12 <elliott> fizzie: Tiling Minecraft -- that must go well for you. (OK, you probably float it or use a desktop.)
21:26:37 <fizzie> elliott: No, I keep it as a half-a-screen sized 960x1200 window, actually.
21:27:13 <Vorpal> elliott, glxgears is still useful to check "do I have software or hardware 3D?"
21:27:22 <elliott> fizzie: When all you have is a hammer^Wtiling window manager...
21:27:29 <elliott> Vorpal: see http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Glxgears_is_not_a_Benchmark#Debunking_the_Myth_.28glxgears_is_a_benchmark.29 and following section
21:27:37 <fizzie> Whenever I make a more "landscape" window, the silly thing resizes all the UI elements to take horribly much space.
21:27:44 <fizzie> With the 960x1200 window, they're reasonably small.
21:28:25 <Vorpal> You can use it to show that DRI works, but it does not even test that well. There's glxinfo or your Xorg.0.log to tell you if DRI was enabled as well. <-- well it tests that well IME. Maybe not so much with fast modern CPUs though
21:28:37 <Vorpal> but 5 years ago it worked perfectly for checking that DRI worked
21:29:59 * elliott watches the Yellow Rose demo. (A prerecording 'cuz I'm a loser.)
21:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ftp.kameli.net/pub/fit/yellow_rose/Yellow_Rose.mov is a fairly-low-quality recording.
21:30:36 <elliott> Pretty nice for a 4K demo (that it runs on Linux and OS X does NOT BIAS ME AT ALL)
21:30:45 <elliott> Admittedly there are some super-impressive 4Ks out there.
21:31:15 <Vorpal> it fails badly at streaming
21:31:26 <elliott> mplayer is very bad at stremaing if you're trying that.
21:31:35 <Vorpal> elliott, was trying vlc
21:31:38 <elliott> http://ftp.kameli.net/pub/fit/yellow_rose/ Here's a bunch of ports.
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21:31:46 <elliott> SGI, Solaris, MorphOS, NetBSD, OS2, PPC Amiga...
21:32:02 <elliott> ...and Android if you'll believe it.
21:32:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Amiga OS 4 I believe.
21:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, which language is it?
21:32:58 <elliott> Very impressive, if Finnish-commented (in one file, osa.c).
21:33:09 <elliott> I find myself wondering where all the actual code is.
21:33:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and this compiled to less than 4K on all those?
21:33:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I imagine that's not "guaranteed".
21:33:44 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance the 64-bit Linux binary here is 25K.
21:33:50 <elliott> Possibly just the Windows binary was 4K, but does it matter?
21:34:00 <fizzie> Makefile hardcodes gcc-3.3, heh.
21:34:22 <elliott> fizzie: Well, new gcc versions can be verrry buggy.
21:34:49 <Vorpal> does it use opengl or?
21:35:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a software-3d version.
21:36:29 <fizzie> It seems to have mostly replaced "glFoo" calls with "mlFoo", and then there's a ml.c that implements just those few it does call.
21:37:03 <fizzie> C.f. the glLight "reimplementation": http://p.zem.fi/u7hs
21:37:38 <fizzie> It's not quite as complete a OpenGL 3d renderer as, say, Mesa.
21:37:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't call the hardware opengl then?
21:38:11 <fizzie> The "default" version does.
21:38:26 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you feel dizzy?
21:38:30 <fizzie> I guess those ports that don't have it are based on the sw-3d version.
21:38:37 <elliott> And runs full screen by default.
21:38:56 <fizzie> Incidentally, I didn't even know pouet has OS icons for Solars and SGI/IRIX ports.
21:39:11 <fizzie> Seven Solaris demos in their repositomatory.
21:39:16 <fizzie> http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform[]=Solaris
21:39:31 <elliott> fizzie: Those fit guys like Solaris.
21:39:57 <fizzie> Yes, four out of the seven are fit/bandwagon products, I see.
21:40:08 <fizzie> Well, one is just fit.
21:40:35 <elliott> http://www.kameli.net/~marq/pROSEssing/
21:40:40 <elliott> Ported to Processing, now with antialiasing. :p
21:41:02 <fizzie> Their port-icon list at http://pouet.net/groups.php?which=409 is also rather more colorful than most. I see some BeOS there.
21:41:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't they have one for every one in the list?
21:41:25 <elliott> fizzie: That Chrysler one, impressive :P
21:41:54 <elliott> I wonder what the most ported one is
21:41:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably, but I didn't know the Solaris scene was so lively.
21:42:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, not very lively really
21:42:33 <Vorpal> compared to, say, windows. Or even to linu
21:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well fair enough
21:42:43 <pikhq> The *PSP* keys suffer from the same vulnerability.
21:42:53 <pikhq> That's two consoles hacked from one mistake.
21:43:11 <elliott> pikhq: Wasn't the PHP already homebrew'd up the wazoo?
21:43:34 <pikhq> elliott: They discovered ways to downgrade the firmware to vulnerable ones.
21:43:46 <pikhq> Much like the PS3 can be downgraded.
21:44:56 <fizzie> Heh, one of the Solaris prods (Centripetality, a game) is by a friend; I think it's very likely that's because of the Solaris boxes in one of the university's computer classrooms.
21:45:41 <elliott> fizzie: Stretching the term of demo a bit.
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21:46:54 <fizzie> As long as it's in a compo at some sort of a demoscene-related event, I think it's good enough for pouët.
21:47:30 <fizzie> I didn't like it too much, but that's probably just because I'm not twitchy enough; it needs rather quick flipping between colors there.
21:47:50 <fizzie> Also the controls, like all the commentators say.
21:48:04 <elliott> My question on the Ubuntu forums is getting lots (none) of expert help!
21:48:59 <elliott> Looking at the list of controls, I need more hands.
21:50:48 <Vorpal> sounds like rather unusual gameplay
21:50:52 <elliott> fizzie: Oh dear god this would be fun were it not so god damn hard.
21:50:55 <fizzie> Oh, the web scoreboard is still up and all. (Though for the most part the entries are all 3 years ago. Still, there's one in the top-20 that's just one week old.)
21:51:09 <elliott> It doesn't help that my ctrl key is very inaccessible.
21:51:17 <elliott> Fuck it, I'll make caps lock ctrl just for this.
21:51:19 <Vorpal> elliott, where is ctrl?
21:51:26 <fizzie> elliott: I just kept getting confused about which color my ship was and switching exactly when I shouldn't.
21:51:29 <elliott> Vorpal: To the /right/ of Fn for some ungodly reason.
21:51:44 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you argue it should be outermost before?
21:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember that
21:51:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Ctrl? IT SHOULD BE.
21:52:17 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, isn't fn always outermost?
21:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I never seen a laptop where it isn't
21:52:31 <elliott> ThinkPads and Macs are the only ones where it's outmost.
21:52:35 <elliott> And it's _stupid_. And irritating.
21:52:39 <Vorpal> elliott, let me check my old dell
21:53:07 <Vorpal> huh indeed not outermost
21:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I always found ctrl hard to hit on my old dell
21:53:23 <Vorpal> guess I'm just too used to my thinkpad
21:54:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I can manage exactly two keyboards well: generic full sized pc keyboard (NOT thin models though!). And my thinkpad
21:54:27 <elliott> fizzie: This game - HARDEST EVER.
21:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, harder than "I wanna be the guy"?
21:55:04 <fizzie> elliott: Take "more than 28737 points" as your score-goal, then you have beaten the game's developer.
21:55:12 <elliott> fizzie: I'm getting, like, 5000! WOOOO
21:55:29 <Vorpal> doesn't sound too hard to get points then?
21:55:45 <fizzie> elliott: Well, with >6921 you have beaten me, according to the web-scoreboard.
21:55:55 <elliott> Fuck this, I'm playing IWBTG.
21:56:10 <elliott> http://darwine.sourceforge.net/ ;; very alive
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21:56:17 <fizzie> My rank seems to be the honorable 208th.
21:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=120946&sid=fb4376cb29342af1342de884bbc7f90b
21:56:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I HAVE FOUND WHAT WE SHOULD BASE ASTEROIDS II ON SORT OF
21:56:36 <elliott> AS IN ASTEROIDS II SHOULD BE MUCH LESS HARD
21:56:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=%2Fparties%2F2007%2Fassembly07%2Fgame%2Fcentripetality_by_aroppuu_huamn_juhovh.zip&fileinfo
21:56:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Note: Game is possible to play only for Finns.
21:57:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: May require three hands.
21:57:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> Fuck this, I'm playing IWBTG. <-- windows only iirc?
21:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> I do love the people who say that Notch is doing us a favour by letting us play MC before it's done.
21:58:26 <fizzie> Is that zip the Linux-x86 version or what?
21:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> What it isn't is 64-bit, or even runnable on a 64-bit system.
22:00:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Just install lib32-blah
22:00:16 <elliott> fizzie: It's a bunch of platforms in one.
22:00:48 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: It has a Solaris/SPARC port, though. Doesn't that count as something?
22:01:09 <Vorpal> why does the readme in http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=%2Fparties%2F2007%2Fassembly07%2Fgame%2Fcentripetality_by_aroppuu_huamn_juhovh.zip&fileinfo render as an image
22:01:13 <Vorpal> that is fucking stupid
22:01:43 <fizzie> That's just something scene.org does.
22:01:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, how utterly silly
22:01:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You have libsomething32bitsomethingsomething
22:02:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I forget the *exact* names.
22:02:08 <elliott> Vorpal: It's because of charsets.
22:02:10 <elliott> Vorpal: It's an NFO renderer.
22:02:22 <elliott> So there is no way to portably display them properly without an image.
22:02:25 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it know which code page?
22:02:32 <elliott> Vorpal: There's only one that anyone used.
22:02:40 <elliott> DOS had no real codepages.
22:02:40 <fizzie> That's not exactly true any more. :p
22:02:46 <elliott> There was just "the IBM PC font".
22:02:59 <fizzie> The image-rendering manages to break all party results textfiles and everything.
22:03:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember you often loaded code pages in Sweden to get the chars
22:03:26 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact you had to
22:03:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: ia32-libs for one
22:03:36 <Vorpal> elliott, so yes there was more than one code page loaded
22:03:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I forget the name for SDL.
22:03:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Or just Compile It Yourself.
22:04:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so this just assumes the US standard code page?
22:04:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: sf.net/project/centripality
22:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, only US/UK and such used it
22:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, it was never popular in Sweden for example
22:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, correction: nobody who used the default code page because it had their letters in it cares.
22:05:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: MODULO TYPOS/WHATEVER
22:05:46 <elliott> google "<centripality or whatever> sourceforge"
22:05:49 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: http://sourceforge.net/projects/centripetality/
22:06:00 <fizzie> Here's a link if you need desperately to click on something.
22:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at spelling :D
22:06:27 <elliott> Specially as I never actually looked at the name.
22:06:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: I'm not sure the open-source version supports the web-scoreboard, though. And I'm sure you want to get your FAME ON.
22:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, made up words derived trivially from English ones.
22:07:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Wah wah wah.
22:07:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, quite
22:07:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I wonder why elliott is acting so childish now
22:07:50 <elliott> I think Vorpal is just looking for ways to complain at this point.
22:07:59 <fizzie> On a Utnubbu system I don't think it needs anything else than ia32-libs to run.
22:08:03 <elliott> I solemnly swear to NEVER TYPO A GAME NAME EVER AGAIN
22:08:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you are pathetic.
22:08:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: SORRY can't reply I'm too busy being too childish to reply.
22:08:28 <elliott> Vorpal: That time of the month again...?
22:08:31 <Gregor> Hey there different-group-of-people-from-yesterday.
22:08:50 <Vorpal> elliott, very droll. But I guess you should know, alise.
22:09:06 <Gregor> Help us make an unsolvable game!
22:09:21 <elliott> Oh wow, you're reaching the height of comedy Vorpal. Soon I'll have to ignore you before laughing so hard I wet my pants.
22:09:23 <Gregor> (Which is nonetheless strategic, fun, and playable by humans)
22:09:39 <elliott> Gregor: The unsolvable game is asking people to make an unsolvable game which is nonetheless strategic, fun, and playable by humans.
22:09:49 <elliott> Gregor: You trick people into helping, have fun doing it...
22:09:52 <elliott> but ultimately, it is impossible.
22:09:53 <Gregor> elliott: ... YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND
22:10:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess a simple intellect like yours is easily amused.
22:10:10 <Vorpal> elliott, (wait this reminds me of monkey island)
22:10:18 <Gregor> But anyway, I put our current thoughts here: http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game
22:10:37 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, I haven't actually flooded anything with lava lately. If you don't stop being inane I might be less careful with buckets.
22:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you take it to threats like that? ...
22:11:08 <nooga> i think i i've found redstone but i don't even have iron yet
22:11:36 <Vorpal> nooga, no point in mining it then. Since you won't get anything from it. Find iron first
22:11:50 <nooga> theres no goddamn iron in this worls
22:11:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Considering you've basically been irritating me for no discernible reason based on one not-even-typo, and continue to do so, yes, I'll raise it to basically anything I want.
22:11:54 <Vorpal> nooga, iron might be harder to see than redstone certainly
22:12:06 <elliott> nooga: You have to set up an actual mine.
22:12:20 <nooga> i'm digging tunnels
22:12:28 <Vorpal> nooga, how deep are you?
22:12:36 <nooga> how am i supposed to know
22:12:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, what's so great with a staircase mine?
22:12:47 <Vorpal> nooga, f3 shows coordinates
22:12:53 <nooga> i did 3 staircases and found only gravel
22:13:18 <Vorpal> nooga, it isn't redstone unless y is less than, 30 or so
22:13:23 <elliott> nooga: You need to do staircases and then branch off.
22:13:35 <elliott> nooga: Main staircase, make corridors in the sides, and then make corridors going off *those*.
22:13:40 <elliott> nooga: And that's how you do it.
22:13:54 <Vorpal> nooga, x,y,z y is altitude above bottom of map
22:14:01 <elliott> nooga: i.e., the corridors you actually mine in are the same direction as your stairs.
22:14:22 <Vorpal> nooga, maybe redstone then.
22:14:43 <elliott> nooga: It's redstone if it's red.
22:14:50 <elliott> Brought to you by "Vorpal Makes It Complicated" Industries.
22:15:14 <elliott> Redstone is red. Things that aren't redstone are not red.
22:15:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well red flowers... (sorry)
22:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, the advantage of staircase mining is that it's both simple and dense: if you plan correctly, you can ensure that you have examined every block within the range of the mining.
22:17:15 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/gDee5.png oh shit
22:18:03 <Vorpal> elliott, wrong dimensions for my screen though :/
22:18:07 <nooga> i just found a tunnel with nice stream
22:18:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, oh like my high density mines then? That model (which I do not claim to have invented) are good for when you are already near the bottom and want to mine a lot at a given altitude
22:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, are your high-density mines just the ones in Mt. Vorpal?
22:19:47 <nooga> how do you get rid of rubble?
22:20:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, yes those multi-layer ones that look like a zipper
22:20:41 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover_: this cobblestone that you collect when mining?
22:20:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it's a form of branch mining
22:21:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, either a) put it in a chest or b) throw it elsewhere.
22:23:01 <nooga> for cobblestone? :F
22:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> (I have things set up such that I never need to leave my shelter.)
22:23:18 <Vorpal> nooga, you probably want to save some, but not all
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22:23:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well if you are that style of player :D
22:23:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you have chests full of iron then?
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22:24:34 <elliott> nooga: Cooblestones are useful for pickaxes.
22:24:38 <elliott> You won't _always_ have iron.
22:24:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You're straying into very Vorpally territory.
22:24:56 <Vorpal> not at the start anyway
22:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong with having a lot in chests?
22:25:13 <nooga> buy 900 cobblestone is useless
22:25:22 <elliott> I mean arranging things so you never have to leave.
22:25:33 <elliott> nooga: As long as you mine at least three cobbles with each stone pickaxe you're good :P
22:25:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well. That follows as a result of having huge stores in chests
22:26:00 <Vorpal> elliott, actually you never /have/ to leave once you have a small shelter and one torch
22:26:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I leave even though I don't have to. Because it would be boring otherwise
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22:26:52 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, can't you just have a two high wall four around you (8 blocks), plus one block above? You'd need to place 10 blocks (one extra to get the top block in, but the final result would just be 9 blocks).
22:27:02 <elliott> Nothing can get into that, nothing can spawn in it, and you need nothing else forever.
22:27:13 <fizzie> 900 cobblestone is not especially much for some sort of a megastructure.
22:27:18 <elliott> I conclude that to win Minecraft, one has to mine 10 blocks, and you then complete the game with one block.
22:27:30 <elliott> Well... actually, removing the block you need to place the top would be difficult.
22:27:34 <Vorpal> elliott, every time I started a single player game I ended up on a beech. I don't get it. Isn't the starting position random at all?
22:27:38 <elliott> So basically to win Minecraft takes 10 blocks of any description. Well, apart from sand.
22:27:45 <elliott> Vorpal: I end up on a beach quite often but I don't think always.
22:27:55 <Vorpal> elliott, true that would work
22:28:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, 900 is hardly enough for any sort of mega structure
22:28:28 <Vorpal> but too much for everything else
22:29:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you need 9 blocks. You can remove the one used to place and then reuse it for another yet unbuilt wall
22:29:25 <Vorpal> assuming it is something that can be removed
22:29:57 <elliott> Takes 10 blocks and you finish with one.
22:30:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you could manage with two blocks if you find a straight cliff side. mine two. walk into the hole. Place the two just outside the hole
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22:30:25 <nooga> does lava mean that there are precios minerals near?
22:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I will do that now.
22:30:37 <elliott> nooga: It means you're near the bottom of the lava, where most minerals are.
22:30:38 <nooga> like, is it wise to start a mine near lava lake?
22:30:41 <Vorpal> elliott, or 3 blocks if you dig down into the ground and place one back above you
22:30:49 <nooga> elliott: the lava is on surface
22:30:55 <elliott> nooga: That indicates nothing.
22:30:59 <elliott> nooga: (Good luck to find one of them though.)
22:31:00 <Vorpal> elliott, there are lava lakes at many altitudes nowdays
22:31:05 <elliott> nooga: Build a base on top for the lulz.
22:31:08 <Vorpal> elliott, even just a few blocks below
22:31:14 <nooga> i don't have glass :D
22:31:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Shush, I'm about to win Minecraft with two blocks.
22:31:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I noticed lava lakes on the surface are WAY more common in SMP than in single player
22:31:30 <Vorpal> elliott, based on a local testing server
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22:32:28 -!- BMG has joined.
22:32:28 <Vorpal> elliott, two blocks remember
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22:32:36 <nooga> hart staircases do you build?
22:32:52 <elliott> nooga: I did 3x3 shafts and then do the middle as staircases.
22:33:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Took two dirt from a hill, stepped inside, placed them on the floor outside.
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22:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I spawned in that once. On a beech in one.
22:33:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah whatever
22:33:59 <elliott> Vorpal: English spelling fail
22:34:21 <Vorpal> note to self: always say "beech" to elliott instead. And call the tree "beach". Just to annoy him
22:34:58 <pikhq> ENGLISH IS NOT THAT HARD. :P
22:35:58 <Vorpal> elliott, bug since beta yes
22:36:05 <Vorpal> elliott, try those mods. they help somewhat
22:36:41 <Vorpal> elliott, try the save one? I haven't tried that one yet
22:36:59 <elliott> I might but I rarely play SSP.
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22:38:18 <elliott> WATERFALL OMG WATERFALL LOVE
22:38:37 <Sgeo> People farm cobblestone?
22:38:51 <Vorpal> elliott, scared of the monsters?
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22:39:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not farm really no
22:39:10 <elliott> I play peaceful because I'm a wimp.
22:39:30 <Vorpal> elliott, also hypocrite
22:39:44 <elliott> I don't recommend that other people become wimps.
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22:45:22 <nooga> uh i died but i've managet to get back
22:45:36 <nooga> zombie spawned in a cavern
22:45:40 <coppro> this is the best idea ever
22:45:45 <coppro> invert my screen every 0.5 seconds
22:45:45 <Vorpal> nooga, need more lights then
22:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, make sure to warn any epileptic person then!
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22:47:40 <elliott> Munekhtew is a monkey cthulhu
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22:52:00 <elliott> Gregor: what about infinite D tic tac toe, oklopol played that with me
22:52:02 <elliott> 21:55 Phantom_Hoover_: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=120946&sid=fb4376cb29342af1342de884bbc7f90b
22:52:40 <elliott> Gregor: basically you had to get 4 in a row in any dimension i think... coordinates were lists of naturals (or integers, I forget)
22:52:57 <elliott> Gregor: it may have been more complex than that. I remember it had its own mini-language to describe infinite coordinate lists :)
22:53:06 <elliott> Gregor: The nice thing there is that the coordinates are isomorphic to reals.
22:53:58 <Gregor> One of the requirements is that it be fun and playable with pencil-and-paper. In other words, you're not doing constant insane math, and real numbers are pretty much right out. :P
22:54:16 <elliott> Gregor: you don't even think about the reals
22:54:21 <elliott> Gregor: it's just infinite coordinate lists
22:54:34 <elliott> Gregor: btw i played it with oklopol with a bot and it /was/ fun, so fuck your pencil-and-paper requirement
22:54:40 <elliott> Gregor: hell, playing chess with pencil-and-paper is a bitch
22:54:45 <elliott> Gregor: so what is the point of that requirement?
22:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits#The_North.2FSouth_Quirk
22:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, VERY USEFUL but /might/ be fixed
22:55:46 <Gregor> OK, I guess pencil-and-paper /per se/ wasn't what I was looking for, just playable with minimal setup "in real life" (that is, no computer required)
22:55:58 <Gregor> Pencil-and-paper is just nice because it's near-zero setup.
22:56:21 <elliott> Gregor: You can do this with pencil and paper quite easily, just note down the filled columns. It's not a /graphical/ representation, but "meh".
22:56:32 <elliott> nooga: Smelt it in a furnace (1 coal = 8 ores turned into N ingots).
22:57:05 <elliott> Gregor: An interface would be quite fun, since you can "hack" it into a finite display by saying that (X 0 0 0 0 ...) is X, and all the rest of X is "inside" X.
22:57:11 <nooga> but then what to do with the iron? armor? wapon? iron picks aren't too durable
22:57:13 <elliott> And then (X Y 0 0 0 0 ...) is Y for all Y, etc.
22:57:26 <elliott> Gregor: So you can basically move around the board, and go inside one level, and that lets you navigate.
22:57:35 <elliott> Gregor: Of course infinite placement requires /some/ kind of expressive moves, but eh :P
22:57:47 <elliott> nooga: They aren't, but you need them to mine quite a bit of stuff.
22:57:53 <elliott> nooga: Armour and sword are always good picks.
22:58:01 <Vorpal> <elliott> nooga: Smelt it in a furnace (1 coal = 8 ores turned into N ingots). <-- where N = 8
22:58:21 <elliott> nooga: So basically you have 90 iron ingots.
22:58:31 <elliott> nooga: You can make all the armour with that I believe.
22:58:40 <elliott> And probably a few tools too.
22:58:44 <elliott> Sword and pickaxe I'd go for.
22:58:52 <elliott> Of course you might want to keep a lot of it for later :P
22:59:10 <Vorpal> nooga, sword and pickaxe, then armor. And don't throw away any iron like you did with the cobble
23:00:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Armour is most important.
23:00:35 <elliott> Make a full set of iron armour, two swords, and the rest into pickaxes (with a few swords if you have enough).
23:00:52 <elliott> I mean, stone tools aren't actually all that bad and they're super-renewable.
23:01:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean leather armor
23:01:10 <elliott> I doubt he has any armour now, so getting it would be a high priority.
23:01:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeaaah not only is that a pain to get the leather for but it's beyond useless :P
23:01:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Got any chainmail in your game?
23:01:51 <elliott> It's made out of PURE FIRE http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Chainmail
23:01:57 <Vorpal> elliott, no, that would be cheating :P
23:02:29 <elliott> nooga: Anyway, iron armour is pretty much the most practical armour considering that diamond is incredibly scarce, gold is a joke, and leather is... leather.
23:02:29 <Vorpal> "Chainmail armor has the same durability as Gold armor. "
23:02:35 <Vorpal> in other words. Pretty useless
23:02:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Just get MORE FIRE
23:03:28 <Sgeo> Does diamond stuff ever break
23:03:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes. But it takes ages
23:03:57 <Sgeo> Does HHI have diamond supplies?
23:04:07 <elliott> Diamond is utterly free on the server :P
23:04:17 <Vorpal> elliott, only for the 3 basic tools
23:04:19 <elliott> There's a large chest (ok, currently inaccessible) of it at spawn, and there's a kit to get diamond tools.
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23:04:29 <Vorpal> elliott, not sword indeed
23:04:32 <elliott> The chest will probably be fixed sometime.
23:04:40 <Sgeo> A "kit" to get diamond tools?
23:04:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes for pickaxe/axe/spade
23:05:25 <Sgeo> How does a chest become accidentally inaccssible?
23:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, btw the tools in the "stacks" are used one at a time I found. So if you have a stack of 3-4 you can forget to renew for some time
23:05:32 <elliott> It's under spawn protection.
23:05:35 <elliott> Server-side inventory stole it from us.
23:05:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, by being in spawn protection area
23:05:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Also we have a kit that fills your entire inventory with glass. Including armour slots.
23:05:54 <elliott> You actually see the glass cube on your head.
23:06:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you should have glass elsewhere on your body IMO
23:06:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how you can get cactusheads and portalheads.
23:06:38 <elliott> I would pay good money for a portalhead.
23:06:45 <Vorpal> elliott, portalheads? LINK!
23:06:51 <olsner> I've been thinking about some kind of assembly language with macros, types and abstraction, but everything still rooted in actual assembly... you could see it as the ultimate assembly-generation DSL
23:06:59 <elliott> Vorpal: There were no pictures but it was in a thread of people trying various headgears.
23:07:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Apparently the portal actually animates.
23:07:17 <elliott> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Level_Assembly Congrats, you're a crazy person.
23:07:18 <Vorpal> try it on a local server
23:07:50 <Vorpal> <olsner> I've been thinking about some kind of assembly language with macros, types and abstraction, but everything still rooted in actual assembly... you could see it as the ultimate assembly-generation DSL <-- dependant types!?
23:07:51 <elliott> olsner: Just write enough of Lisp to have an x86 assembler and macros, and you can built types, structures etc. on top of that. But, oops! Haha, you just invented Lisp.
23:07:51 <Sgeo> Adamantium needs to exist
23:08:01 <elliott> olsner: So why would you want to use assembly.
23:08:12 <elliott> Sgeo: It does, it's called bedrock.
23:09:00 <elliott> AKA bedrock because adminium is a horrible name.
23:09:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I /gave myself some on my local test server then built a room out of it and added a warp point inside. Great fun.
23:09:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, er, great fun.
23:09:57 <olsner> elliott: hmm, maybe it would end up as crazy as HLA by necessity, was hoping for awesome rather than crazy though :P
23:10:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yes because you could never break it with TNT. Not even with with >500 TNT (which could break obsidian)
23:10:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: http://imgur.com/a/hGmQ1/1#ZCUK4 100-block diameter dome of jaw-dropping awesomeness.
23:10:32 <olsner> Vorpal: dependent types, yes, probably...
23:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> FWIW, I think it is actually possible to penetrate bedrock or obsidian ceilings.
23:10:39 <elliott> olsner: You know what dependent types are, right?
23:11:09 <elliott> olsner: And, well, as I said, the simplest and most awesome way to do this is Lisp ... but when you have Lisp, why would you want assembly>
23:11:52 <elliott> olsner: You just need a bunch of assembler primitives and the basic Lisp toolset -- then you can build labels, "combined" instructions (i.e. "mov" out of all the different kinds of mov), proper addressing (just have the offsets etc. built in to the primitives -- basically make it a direct match for machine code).
23:12:01 <elliott> olsner: Then you can build macros, types, etc. on top of that with Lisp macros.
23:12:05 <fizzie> What's the tooltip for bedrock? "Bedrock"?
23:12:30 <elliott> fizzie: "What how do you have this stop it"
23:12:31 <olsner> well, the idea was that it should allow enough abstraction to be able to have a language like haskell defined as a combination of type system and "macro" features that you can write haskell-syntax programs and your macros do code-generation to assembly code like a haskell compiler would :)
23:13:05 <olsner> and also a level more like C, where you mostly have register allocation and function calls handled for you
23:13:05 <elliott> olsner: so basically you substitute fragile macros for a real language :>
23:13:42 <elliott> Welp, be back in 20-30-40 minutes.
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23:15:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: "What how do you have this stop it" <-- really? *goes to check*
23:16:07 <fizzie> No, it's just bedrock.
23:16:59 <fizzie> tile.bedrock.name=Bedrock
23:17:18 <fizzie> (lang/en_US.lang in minecraft.jar.)
23:17:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, it has langauges?
23:17:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, what locales does it have?
23:17:49 <fizzie> That's the only file in there.
23:18:00 <fizzie> But it seems like an attempt for localization.
23:18:16 <fizzie> It contains what seems to be the most of the text in the UI.
23:19:10 <fizzie> Incidentally, the "internal names" for Netherrack, Soul Sand and Glowstone (i.e. netherstuff, slowsand/mud and lightstone) are "hellrock", "hellsand" and "lightgem".
23:21:55 <fizzie> Github's thing where if you write "closes #n" or "fixes #n" in a commit message, it actually goes and closes issue #n, puts a link to the issue-post into the commit view, and adds the commit message as a comment in the issue (except with "closes/fixes #n" → "closed/fixed by [commit id]") is a nice (if quirky) thing.
23:28:23 <zzo38> Invent a TeX format for code golf.
23:29:04 <Sgeo> "Yeah, only MP, SP fences are just fine.
23:29:19 <Sgeo> Well, that's nice, random bugs seemingly unrelated to the mode are mode dependent
23:29:20 <zzo38> I used to think there was no command in TeX for calculating overfullness of boxes, but actually there is.
23:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover_> It still baffles me why you wouldn't just make SP a special case of MP.
23:31:04 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: What is SP, does it stand for "Special" or "Special Point" or something like that?
23:31:12 <Sgeo> I'd probably completely fail to realize that people would want SP
23:31:15 <Sgeo> zzo38, single player
23:31:45 <zzo38> Well then, you should have a single-player mode, multi-player, and multi-player with one player.
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23:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, where the last of those is exactly equivalent to single-player.
23:36:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, I still get that high altitude bug. Updated one hour ago
23:36:13 <zzo38> If that is how it works, then you don't need single-player mode, except for it to possibly mean turn off network access.
23:37:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, f3 reports 114
23:37:40 <Vorpal> and placing on ground next to me
23:37:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, now it only bugs in top view
23:38:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, not in normal view
23:38:17 <Vorpal> oh wait, normal too, but less obvious
23:39:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, does not happen at 113, but happens at 115
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23:41:36 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to do something strange.
23:42:03 <elliott> fizzie: I made an isue 'cuz i'm cool
23:42:21 <elliott> fizzie: i would prefer it if nomap didn't use sdl
23:42:34 <elliott> well i guess it might already be loaded
23:42:45 <fizzie> It's linked-to, anyway.
23:43:14 <fizzie> Like the comment says, a no-SDL nomap would be nicer; but I don't think it makes much practical difference there.
23:43:21 <elliott> fizzie: Would you think it rude if I rewrote the wholet hing in ML? :D
23:44:23 <olsner> elliott: continuing from before, what I have in mind is not really "macros" in the typical code-that-makes-code macros... rather something like type classes, let's say it'd let you define a category of "boxed values" and describe that they are thunks that get forced when looked at
23:45:31 <elliott> 'tronic uses higher resolution textures than the standard minecraft ones so you need to run the HD Texture Fix or your bricks and hellstone will look all fucked up."
23:45:36 <elliott> What a weird thing to break.
23:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, fun fact: minecraft uses a signed value for durability. And counts up. Not down. With an inventory editor you could make a twice as durable diamond tool for example :D
23:46:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed. That has been done.
23:46:43 <elliott> Vorpal: With negative values.
23:46:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Also Minecraft uses signed EVERYTHING; Java has no unsigned.
23:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, what about reading binary data with unsigned values?
23:47:38 <fizzie> You add a lot of &0xff's in.
23:47:51 * elliott decides to try Tronic again.
23:48:16 <elliott> I love how Java perfectly strides the line between low-level drudge work and high-level limitedness, achieving neither.
23:48:23 <elliott> Truly the most useless of languages.
23:49:24 <elliott> fizzie: You never answered my ML question! How rude!
23:49:27 <Vorpal> elliott, btw about that stupid "for older computer" texture pack. I just realised that with texture compression involved it /might/ actually save some video ram. Very very doubtful it would make a difference though
23:49:43 <elliott> Vorpal: But DUDE, it has to PUT LESS PIXELS
23:50:07 <Vorpal> coppro, what does it do?
23:50:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Zero-extend bitshift, IIRC.
23:50:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well not that. But it might, /just might/, have to shuffle less data to/from video ram
23:50:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, in which language
23:50:23 <fizzie> The default >> sign-extends.
23:50:59 <olsner> (as for why assembly is involved in my idea - it's mostly because I've been writing assembly lately and realized it involves a lot of boring drudge work :) )
23:51:21 <Sgeo> Ok, who let Notch play with the Minecraft Wiki?
23:51:30 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, I must've erased that comment. It was something along the lines of "no, as long as you don't push the ML rewrite as the master branch of mcmap". Of course you're free to reimplement it in any language you like.
23:51:33 <olsner> (so I want something that'll both allow register fiddling and custom calling conventions (where relevant or interesting), as well as higher-level programming where you don't really care, while never leaving the same language... was thinking about making an actual haskell dsl to generate my kernel assembly, and then thought some more along those lines :P)
23:51:38 <Sgeo> The wiki is dow
23:51:54 <elliott> fizzie: Can I push it to the totally-better-and-more-awesome-fizzie-sucks branch?
23:52:34 <elliott> olsner: I wanted to do a Scheme OS a while back, and someone lisppasted an awesome x86 assembler written in a few hundred lines of Scheme.
23:52:35 <fizzie> Well, sure, I don't see anything rude about that.
23:53:09 <elliott> olsner: The most AWSUM(tm) way to do a kernel in Scheme would be to write the code with an in-Scheme assembler, building up useful macros to relieve the drudge work, so that you have macros that implement a sizeable subset of a Scheme compiler.
23:53:31 <elliott> olsner: Then you write a Scheme JIT compiler in this Scheme-based-assembler-with-macro-based-compiler-of-a-lot-of-Scheme.
23:53:40 <elliott> olsner: Voila! You can now do the rest in Scheme, with inline Scheme-assembler.
23:53:48 <elliott> olsner: What I'm saying is, live my dreams for me so I don't have to do the work.
23:53:53 <Vorpal> elliott, spawn on multiplayer test server is not at 0,0 btw. And it is on a beach.
23:54:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it has not been moved
23:54:21 <Vorpal> elliott, however it is closer to 0,0 than on ineiros's server
23:54:23 <elliott> Vorpal: heh. very well then, but obviously someone travelled to (0,0), moved about three chunks, and then left
23:54:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Close, close ... I'm too hardcore to depend on anything but an assembler, so the implementation of the @-language is done in pure, raw assembly.
23:54:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: The way I figure it is: if I wanted to use a better language I would use @-lang.
23:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, spawn coords: -19 -34
23:55:21 <nooga> this is what i call mining
23:55:32 <nooga> i've found an ultimate cavern
23:56:03 <coppro> there exists a chance of a better one
23:56:37 <elliott> Your MOM is the ultimate cavern lol
23:56:51 <coppro> elliott: that's what she said
23:57:00 <Sgeo> I'm slightly upset that all MC worlds are larger than the largest AW world
23:57:02 <elliott> coppro: osnap—that's what your face said to her when she said it
23:57:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> <Sgeo> I'm slightly upset that all MC worlds are larger than the largest AW world
23:57:16 <elliott> Sgeo: Also, all MC worlds are more fun than the funnest possible AW world (which is no fun at all).
23:57:40 <nooga> LOADS OF GODDAMN IRON
23:57:43 <elliott> nooga: don't you have enough
23:57:48 <coppro> elliott: your awful awful comeback
23:57:55 <coppro> world needs more rockraiders remakes
23:57:57 <elliott> coppro: almost as awful as your mom
23:57:59 <Sgeo> AlphaWorld is (32750 * 2)^2 square meters
23:58:02 <olsner> elliott: I don't think scheme is quite up to the task of fulfilling my vision :)
23:58:09 <elliott> coppro: except that's not actually possible
23:58:30 <nooga> is there a better fuel for furnance than coal?
23:58:31 <elliott> olsner: You can't do my dream-but-one (not quite my dream) with Haskell 'cuz Template Haskell sucks bawlz.
23:58:42 <Sgeo> I remember seeing something about it being roughly the size of California
23:58:48 <elliott> nooga: but, coal + multiple furnaces is fast and economical
23:58:58 <elliott> nooga: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Furnace#Fuel_efficiency
23:59:01 <elliott> nooga: lava bucket is the most hardc0re
23:59:07 <Ilari> Heh... One blog is almost down... Presumably because highly popular podcast is about to be released today...
23:59:09 <elliott> "*Note that using a Lava Bucket will not only use the lava, but destroy the bucket as well."
23:59:15 <elliott> nooga: you can use stairs and jukeboxes and fences for no apparent reason
23:59:55 <olsner> elliott: no, obviously I'd have to write my own compiler or compile-time interpreter or whatever it ends up being
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00:01:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: GET ON MC
00:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, if you haven't blown up Mt. Vorpal by "accident" I will be sorely disappointed.
00:02:39 <Sgeo> " (Note: You cannot farm cheap obsidian here, as the water evaporates!) "
00:08:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I am ready to blow things up.
00:08:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Can we make a 10x10x10 cube of TNT?
00:27:58 <augur> tell me of your favorite type system
00:30:11 <nooga> this cave is too big to light
00:30:11 <elliott> augur: system I\Xi is pretty nice
00:30:23 <nooga> but there are monsters
00:30:31 <Sgeo> elliott, people do mine obsidian: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=78446
00:33:21 <nooga> is it possible to make a lava column?
00:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't your scree x9nn?
00:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, on your macbook air
00:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, "ha ha my computer is better than yours"
00:44:04 <Vorpal> elliott, 1680x1050 > 1440x900
00:44:12 <Vorpal> elliott, thus in that aspect mine is better
00:44:20 <elliott> mine is better in every way
00:44:39 <Vorpal> elliott, also fewer usb ports
00:44:47 <elliott> Vorpal: the usb ports are better though
00:44:47 <Vorpal> elliott, mine has... 8 usb ports
00:44:51 <pikhq> Some Senators are stating that they will allow the US to default on its debts.
00:44:52 <elliott> also the fewer pixels are more zen
00:45:04 <Vorpal> elliott, how are your usb ports better? usb 3.0?
00:45:35 <pikhq> We do not know what will happen if that happens, except that it will be *fucking terrible*.
00:45:48 <elliott> Vorpal: but yes this has usb 3
00:45:54 <Vorpal> elliott, also you don't have hardware midi!
00:46:02 <Vorpal> elliott, or built in gbit ethernet
00:46:10 <elliott> Vorpal: nope, it's because steve jobs wrote the software midi himself and it sounds like angels peeing on your face
00:46:19 <elliott> the ethernet is 20gb duh that's why it has to be housed in a separate container
00:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, or 1 TB non-volatile storage space
00:46:23 <pikhq> Oh, and the dollar would probably instantly go into hyperinflation.
00:46:25 <elliott> because otherwise it would be breaking speed regulations
00:46:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I have more, I have petabytes
00:46:35 <elliott> Vorpal: they call it "the internet"
00:46:43 <elliott> it even has a wireless connection to it
00:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, so does my thinkpad
00:47:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Does it have USB 3.0?
00:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, no but it has more usb ports than you
00:47:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway aren't usb 3.0 ports taller?
00:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, or is that usb 4?
00:47:48 <elliott> Allow me to repeat: Err, no.
00:47:58 <elliott> Oh, it's actually USB 2.0.
00:48:06 <elliott> Vorpal: My USB ports are better because they're more USB porty than your USB ports.
00:48:12 <elliott> Quod erat demonstrandum, motherfucker.
00:48:56 <Vorpal> elliott, how are they more usb porty?
00:49:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Because they're more USB.
00:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and no I do not concede
00:49:12 <Vorpal> elliott, because I call that a lie
00:49:22 <elliott> Vorpal: You are wrong and your entire family is made out of meat.
00:49:57 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I'm a computer.
00:50:12 <elliott> Also: I FUCKING WISH MINECRAFTFORUM WOULD REMOVE THAT IRRITATING NOTCH SMILEY.
00:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott, solution: adblock it
00:50:43 <elliott> Idiots are the problem. :p
00:50:48 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) Install AdBlock
00:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, 1) already done... over two years ago
00:51:16 <Vorpal> elliott, how can you live with the ads?
00:51:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't browse sites that show me irritating ads.
00:51:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Bonus: I don't browse shitty sites.
00:51:38 <elliott> Or at least I browse less of them.
00:51:44 <Vorpal> elliott, same but google ads = irritating to me
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00:51:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Then you're just whiny.
00:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, they were okay when they only allowed text
00:52:11 <pikhq> I find AdBlock a need.
00:52:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but now I'm pretty sure I seen graphics in one
00:52:20 <pikhq> Essentially all ads are fucking annoying.
00:52:31 <pikhq> Google's text ads being the only exception.
00:52:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, they have non-text ads nowdays iirc?
00:52:51 <elliott> Let's put it this way: reddit has exactly two ad spots: the one at the top, which is commercially-posted links, almost all of which have comments and are often interesting; and the square ad on the right sidebar, which is _never_ irritating, never animated, and always subdued, and the admins keep it that way.
00:52:58 <elliott> Irritating ads get reported and removed extremely swiftly.
00:53:06 <pikhq> Static images aren't too bad; a minor irritant.
00:53:11 <elliott> Plus, often subreddits etc. are advertised in the right bar and it can be interesting.
00:53:16 <elliott> I see _no point_ in blocking those whatsoever.
00:53:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh yes I have gif animations set to "don't repeat"
00:53:29 <pikhq> Animated images vary from "somewhat irritating" to "OH HOLY FUCK I MUST KILL SOMEONE".
00:53:36 <elliott> Plus there's a good chance of them showing you a kitten instead of ads.
00:53:46 <pikhq> And Flash ads make me want to line up all advertisers before a firing squad.
00:53:53 <elliott> They put random pictures there not linked to anything on like 1/5th of all page loads.
00:53:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't have flash of course
00:53:59 <pikhq> After that noise I just installed AdBlock and called it a day.
00:54:12 <elliott> Vorpal lives in a world where not having Flash is "of course".
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00:54:21 <elliott> Anyway, any website with Flash ads isn't worth the time of day.
00:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott, hey *you* don't have flash you said
00:54:28 <pikhq> Oh, and ones that appear *over* the page also make me want to wipe out humanity.
00:54:28 <elliott> So I just don't browse such websites for more than 10 seconds at a time.
00:54:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, they made that?
00:54:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but it's hardly "of course".
00:54:43 <elliott> Vorpal: They've "made that" since the 90s ...
00:54:47 <Vorpal> elliott, no, accept it.
00:55:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it /is/ of course. Welcome to the club. Accept your fate.
00:55:17 <pikhq> Also, video ads before a video are pretty annoying.
00:55:27 <pikhq> Especially when it's the same fucking ad for every video on a site.
00:55:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't tell me youtube have them or something?
00:55:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, the next time I want to play a Flash game or watch a weebl's stuff cartoon I'll happily install it.
00:55:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Youtube does.
00:55:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, it has ads before the video?
00:55:55 <nooga> this cave is never ending system of dark pits and halls
00:55:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, long live youtube-dk
00:56:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, youtube-dl for the win!
00:56:17 <pikhq> (mostly corporate-posted videos.)
00:56:20 <Vorpal> nooga, congrats on finding a large cavern system
00:56:30 <pikhq> "Because making a worse product is a good idea."
00:56:38 <Vorpal> nooga, it happens a few times in every game. Rarely does it naturally go down to lava lake level
00:56:52 <Vorpal> I had one game with two such. Near each other.
00:57:38 <zzo38> Someone said they would make up a new kind of poker game and make manga of it, and then I will be the non-Japanese people to play this game.
00:58:15 <elliott> Vorpal: youtube-dl is bullshit, just use a youtube->html5 thing.
00:58:19 <elliott> 359345743957395 of them exist
00:58:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it bull shit. It rocks if your connection can't handle highest definition available
00:59:18 <Vorpal> elliott, also I thought youtube had html5 naively nowdays?
00:59:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Natively only on videos without ads and it's slow as fuck.
00:59:48 <elliott> Also, having to wait ages to watch a stupid YouTube video defeats the entire point.
01:00:50 <zzo38> I don't use YouTube. It is full of wrong thing........
01:01:00 <pikhq> elliott: youtube-dl is actually a god-send for some videos.
01:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you can watch while it downloads. Something like youtube-dl foo & sleep 10 && mplayer foo.flv works file
01:01:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I just use YouTube5 and it works perfectly.
01:01:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm happy for you. But don't call youtube-dl shit
01:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, if you don't like it, so be it
01:01:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or mplayer `youtube-dl -g`
01:01:58 <elliott> pikhq: mplayer is retarded, it never buffers enough.
01:02:00 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpEu5AZnTGM
01:02:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, that works too if it doesn't fuck up buffering as elliott said
01:02:06 <elliott> zzo38: Wrong thing is an ellipsis made out of 8 dots.
01:02:10 <pikhq> elliott: -cache set-the-buffer-in-kilobytes
01:02:10 <elliott> zzo38: It's three, man, it's three.
01:02:21 <elliott> pikhq: It seems to buffer, use the entire buffer, get some more, etc.
01:02:50 <zzo38> It is not ellipsis. It is a 8-dots-ellipsis.
01:03:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway don't complain about youtube-dl just because you don't use it. There are no technical problems with it as such.
01:03:13 <pikhq> Anyways, I find youtube-dl handy for things encoded with the wrong aspect ratio, black level too high, interlaced, or the like.
01:03:21 <elliott> zzo38: There is no such thing.
01:03:21 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it suck?
01:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you are not helpful in the least
01:03:50 <elliott> Vorpal: You see, it sucks.
01:03:52 <Vorpal> elliott, stop being a turd.
01:03:54 <pikhq> Also, batch download of something I don't want to watch *right now* but would like to watch later.
01:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott, either say /why/ it sucks or shut up.
01:04:08 <pikhq> elliott: Stop being a dumbass.
01:04:10 <Vorpal> elliott, no I don't. I used it once here.
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01:04:25 <elliott> pikhq: I'm actually just trying to irritate him which is working splendidly.
01:04:34 <pikhq> elliott: See, dumbass!
01:04:40 <elliott> How surprising. I bet it'll last for a whole ten minutes.
01:04:46 <elliott> pikhq: To be fair, it's Vorpal and he always deserves it.
01:04:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, just use /ignore as well :)
01:05:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nah, he's not pissing me off.
01:05:10 <zzo38> elliott: Now there is such thing as 8-dots-ellipsis because I had just used it.
01:05:23 <pikhq> Short-term stupidity is not enough to anger me, or even care too much about.
01:05:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, he is however a dumbass as usual
01:05:40 <zzo38> It is a different kind of punctuation than ellipsis because it is different use.
01:05:40 <pikhq> Funny, he's usually fairly intelligent.
01:05:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, well okay he has moments where he lacks that
01:05:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, quite often even
01:05:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, BUT these dumbass moments are quite regular.
01:06:03 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes, pieces of fecal matter.
01:06:21 <elliott> pikhq: What Vorpal fails to understand is that I optimise solely for irritating him
01:06:40 <elliott> P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before.
01:07:19 * pikhq hates knowing that everything sucks.
01:07:26 <pikhq> I can't fix it! I'd have to rewrite everything!
01:07:50 <pikhq> Every: OS, browser, emulator, compiler, etc. sucks ass.
01:07:56 <pikhq> Especially emulators.
01:07:58 * Vorpal checks log to see if elliott became saner
01:08:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Turds turds turds.
01:08:15 <elliott> I know you've been logreading all this time.
01:08:18 <pikhq> I know of only a handful that even emulate the system in question well.
01:08:19 <zzo38> elliott: Is that a real sentence?
01:08:22 <elliott> (Please ignore me forever.)
01:08:30 <elliott> pikhq: You don't need to rewrite the OS, just use @.
01:08:38 <Vorpal> "17:06:40 <elliott> P.S. Vorpal is wrong, he's used "turd" on here twice before." <-- as a matter of fact, you used the word before too. And using a word more than once doesn't really mean you love it. It wasn't recently in any case.
01:08:40 <pikhq> Fewer still that have a usable UI.
01:08:45 <pikhq> Precisely one with readable code.
01:08:50 <pikhq> (it is, amazingly, in C++.)
01:09:13 <pikhq> Yes, readable C++.
01:09:50 * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft
01:09:52 <elliott> pikhq: @ @ @ best os ? best os
01:10:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is in readable C++ hm?
01:10:22 <Sgeo> Portals that just teleport to the same world?
01:10:28 <cheater99> the best operating system is plan 9
01:10:35 <elliott> Sgeo: that's cool people did Portal esque stuff with it
01:10:41 <pikhq> Seriously, look at it.
01:10:45 <elliott> cheater99: plan 9 is kinda lame.
01:10:52 <elliott> it's a major improvement on unix but still way, way too little.
01:10:56 <pikhq> It's, like, executable documentation of an SNES.
01:11:27 <cheater99> the problem with genera is it doesn't have plan9's gui
01:11:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, but does it use enhanced cweb? *ducks*
01:12:04 <Vorpal> * Sgeo WTFs at iCraft <-- ?
01:12:13 <elliott> cheater99: plan 9's gui is better than most GUIs but wildly substandard.
01:12:20 <elliott> cheater99: genera's UI was nicer because it was basically Emacs.
01:12:35 <elliott> Admittedly Plan 9's was more flexible.
01:12:36 <cheater99> i think the standard is the average, not the median
01:12:39 <elliott> (Genera makes up for that by using Lisp.)
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01:13:07 <zzo38> pikhq, but does it use CWEB or any variant of CWEB? *peoples*
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01:14:15 <cheater99> elliott: the reason why i like calculators made out of ttl logic is that you can't write a kernel for them, precluding the whole os debate.
01:14:24 <elliott> pikhq: today i uploaded an interlaced video to my sight which claims to be xhtml but is in fact subtly invalid on every page and sent out of text/html
01:14:58 <elliott> pikhq: it was about downloading a bunch of GoodSNES ROMs and playing them with ZSNES, which I praised as the best piece of software ever written
01:15:21 <elliott> pikhq: i also mocked bsnes for having ridiculous system requirements
01:16:12 <Vorpal> cheater99, why could you not make a calculator with TTL logic capable of running an OS?
01:16:21 <pikhq> cheater99: It's very good assembly code. Its emulation leaves much to be desired these days, though.
01:16:23 <pikhq> elliott: Fuck you.
01:16:25 <Vorpal> sure you would need more than the standard components
01:16:37 <elliott> pikhq: hahahahahahahaha successful trolling
01:16:55 <elliott> cheater99: zsnes is actually terrible.
01:17:07 <elliott> cheater99: it's basically a collection of hacks to make the most popular games work and nothing else.
01:17:21 <cheater99> elliott: well, my experience with it was very good.
01:17:29 <pikhq> elliott: Like most emulators, sadly.
01:17:31 <elliott> well, yes, just about any emulator can run $game.
01:17:49 <elliott> pikhq: except for MAME!111 except MAME is, like, actively developed to be as useless for actually playing things as possible.
01:17:55 <cheater99> it always felt very solid and fast and the options it provided always set it apart from other emulators
01:18:03 <zzo38> Make something like TRIP test but meant to test NES emulator, SNES emulator, GameBoy emulator, etc.
01:18:27 <pikhq> cheater99: Among other things, zsnes will change the emulated clock rate to work around bugs in its emulation.
01:18:28 <cheater99> Vorpal: because then it'd be more than a calculator
01:18:44 <Vorpal> cheater99, well but nothing in TTL logic precludes it
01:18:46 <cheater99> pikhq: yeah, emulators are always funny
01:18:58 <cheater99> Vorpal: no, but the word "calculators" does
01:19:03 <Vorpal> cheater99, also no. my TI-83+ is still a calculator. graphing calculator.
01:19:03 <pikhq> cheater99: Not all emulators are like that.
01:19:14 <Vorpal> cheater99, but it is a calculator
01:19:20 <pikhq> cheater99: Though bsnes has somewhat high system requirements, it's very good...
01:19:34 <elliott> cheater99: you can turn bsnes down btw to get something that runs fast with slightly lower compatibility
01:19:37 <elliott> still vastly more than zsnes though
01:19:46 <cheater99> i don't remember if i'd ever used bsnes
01:19:51 <Vorpal> cheater99, but then we seen that nothing in either "TTL logic" NOR "calculator" precludes being unable to have an OS
01:19:59 <cheater99> my current gripe is not having a working DS emulator
01:20:00 <elliott> cheater99: zsnes in and of itself is not a problem, although I don't know why you'd use it; the problem is people who advocate it blindly and malign things like bsnes for no reason.
01:20:01 <pikhq> elliott: bsnes's performance profile will accurately emulate all but 1 licensed game and all but a handful of demos.
01:20:16 <Vorpal> cheater99, thus follows that a calculator in TTL logic could have an OS
01:20:17 <elliott> cheater99: snes9x is better at "I just wanna play a game on this low-end machine", FWIW.
01:20:40 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVt9dgpxwF4&feature=related what's the point of making the stripes go all the way down?
01:20:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, it has some other profile than "performance"?
01:20:52 <pikhq> cheater99: Its accuracy profile emulates every SNES game accurately except for 2, and the ones that use the Satellaview expansion.
01:21:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Performance, compatibility, accuracy.
01:21:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, compat does what?
01:21:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, even more performance than performance?
01:21:38 <zzo38> Is there any sort of thing similar to TRIP test but is meant for testing accuracy of SNES emulation and so on?
01:21:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, also wait. performance: all but 1. accuracy all but 2?
01:21:49 <pikhq> No, it's lower performance than the performance profile, but it has a somewhat more accurate CPU and PPU emulation.
01:21:59 <elliott> Vorpal: it's an ascending scale
01:22:02 <elliott> performance does almost all shit
01:22:09 <elliott> compatibility does almost all + 1 (I think everything?)
01:22:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, wait, I forgot to mention the 2 that can't be emulated *at all* currently.
01:22:12 <cheater99> Vorpal: yes, but the tense i used was present, i.e. "i like calculators (...)", not "i would like calculators (...)"
01:22:13 <elliott> accuracy does EVERYTHING PERFECTLY EVER.
01:22:20 <elliott> Ascending scale of system requirements.
01:22:21 <cheater99> Vorpal: this means, existing calculators.
01:22:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: Those 2 use special chips in the cartridge which have not been reverse engineered yet.
01:22:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah the fun of those
01:23:01 <pikhq> It used to be 3, but SD Gundam GX's DSP chip got its program ROM dumped.
01:23:14 <cheater99> elliott: yes, snes9x always seemed faster i think
01:23:28 <cheater99> i remember not being able to play zsnes but being able to play snes9x at some point
01:23:35 <elliott> pikhq: omg i just realised, bsnes will be like awesome on this machine
01:23:44 <pikhq> Anyways, on top of those and the Satellaview, you get lower compatibility with the other profiles.
01:23:54 <coppro> this opponent thought he was so clever stuffing his king behind the pawn so the only way I could not stalemate was to lose the pawn
01:23:57 <elliott> [[The following two titles are unplayable, due to special on-cart DSPs whose program ROMs have not been extracted.
01:23:57 <elliott> Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 1 (uses ST-0011 co-processor)
01:23:58 <elliott> Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 2 (uses ST-0018 co-processor)
01:23:59 <elliott> Anything not in the above list is assumed to be fully compatible and bug-free.]]
01:24:07 <coppro> he lost 4 moves after taking the pawn to my rook
01:25:05 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, bsnes tries to build with g++-mp-4.5
01:25:36 <pikhq> The compatibility profile makes a graphical effect on 1 single game stop working and a couple demos stop working, and the performance profile *in addition* might not have pixel-accurate rendering of frames on other games.
01:25:51 <elliott> else ifneq ($(findstring Darwin,$(uname)),)
01:26:00 <elliott> else ifeq ($(platform),osx)
01:26:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, the latter has reasonable system requirements?
01:26:06 <elliott> pikhq: That's a good sign the stock gcc won't work, isn't it.
01:26:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, where reasonable means playable on a sempron 3300+ ;)
01:26:38 <elliott> Ha great, the gcc shipping with os x doesn't do c++0x.
01:27:01 <pikhq> Also, the performance profile can't do in-game debugging, and it doesn't emulate the bizarre requirement that you need to wait a few clock cycles before reading the result of a divide or multiply.
01:27:22 <elliott> pikhq: Is the NES perfectly emulated yet?
01:27:25 <zzo38> elliott: Does gcc ship with OS X now?
01:27:33 <elliott> zzo38: If you install the developer tools, yes.
01:27:34 <zzo38> I thought before you said it didn't.
01:27:41 <elliott> But not in the very stock install, no.
01:27:45 <pikhq> No official games care, but *many* ROM hacks will not do the necessary wait, because no other emulator handles that right.
01:27:48 <pikhq> elliott: Nestopia.
01:28:03 <elliott> pikhq: Is it reaaaaaally perfect though?
01:28:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, does anything depend on that bizzare requirement
01:28:59 <cheater99> elliott: well unless it can emulate jitter in the master clock it's not perfect emulation
01:29:05 <zzo38> There is also the category of homebrew games, in addition to official and ROM hacks.
01:29:12 <elliott> cheater99: Perfect assuming a flawless universe. :p
01:29:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: No. But if you don't account for it, the game won't work on real hardware.
01:29:15 <cheater99> i believe the master clock in the nes was a relaxation oscillator which was very funny
01:29:27 <elliott> cheater99: i.e., cycle exact.
01:29:35 <pikhq> Which is why bsnes emulates it.
01:29:42 <cheater99> slow down and speed up depending on what instructions were being run etc
01:29:49 <pikhq> The idea is that if the game runs on the accuracy profile, it will work on a real SNES.
01:30:01 <elliott> "The Accuracy core uses a slower dot-based emulation of the S-PPU rather than the traditional scanline-based method found in other SNES emulators. The Compatibility core uses the scanline-based rendering with code speedups that obfuscate the source code to an extent"
01:30:05 <elliott> Err, what a strange text from Wikipedia.
01:30:10 <elliott> That text links to the article on code obfuscation.
01:30:14 <elliott> What is it saying? "Performant code is ugly?"
01:30:25 <Vorpal> cheater99, isn't there one semi-decent?
01:30:28 <elliott> cheater99: Isn't NO$GBA meant to be popular. Or DeSmuME.
01:30:30 <pikhq> elliott: It's not obfuscated, it's just optimised rather than being clear documentation.
01:30:51 <pikhq> I'm not sure who wrote that line in the Wikipedia article, but eeew.
01:31:04 <cheater99> no$gba is terrible: no saves, games are halfway unplayable
01:31:07 <elliott> pikhq: OK, what simple systems aren't perfectly emulated. :p
01:31:42 <pikhq> elliott: Probably not the Gameboy Advance.
01:31:52 <pikhq> *Definitely* not the Playstation.
01:31:57 <elliott> pikhq: Oo, we have different definitions of simple, my friend.
01:32:04 <pikhq> And beyond that you're dealing with "insanely complex".
01:32:52 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, okay, lowering it a bit, then. Gameboy Advance not emulated well, nor, to my knowledge, is the Virtual Boy.
01:33:08 <elliott> pikhq: What about the original Gameboy?
01:33:28 <pikhq> elliott: Gambatte or KiGB are believed to be as accurate as humanly possible.
01:33:44 <elliott> cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haOCJ8wL0OA
01:33:50 <pikhq> Gambatte is used in bsnes for its Super Gameboy emulation currently.
01:34:34 <pikhq> elliott: The Magnavox Odyssey!
01:34:54 <elliott> pikhq: Insufficiently interesting :P
01:35:00 <pikhq> It is, in fact, *completely* unemulated.
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01:35:37 <elliott> pikhq: Analogue circuitry. NO THANK YOU.
01:35:53 <elliott> pikhq: Cycle-exact emulation is therefore utterly impossible on a digital machine :P
01:36:13 <pikhq> elliott: Emulation of anything more recent than the SNES pretty much sucks ass.
01:36:18 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, is the C64 perfectly emulated?
01:36:32 <elliott> pikhq: VICE is pretty good, it's handled everything I've thrown at it and god knows C64 programmers do awful things to that machine. But?
01:37:43 <pikhq> elliott: VICE seems to not be a perfect emulator...
01:37:53 <cheater99> the voice at the end coming from offscreen sounds like zombo.com
01:38:11 <elliott> pikhq: The C64 is so complicated though, simply because of all the bugs and intricacies of implementation :P
01:38:20 <elliott> pikhq: yeah, probably easier to leave the VICE people to finish the job
01:38:25 <cheater99> GO FURTHER THAN YOU HAVE EVER GONE BEFORE. SEGA SATURN. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH SEGA SATURN.
01:38:30 <elliott> pikhq: Suggest another machine, then :p
01:38:48 <elliott> cheater99: You will have nightmares about Silver Head tonight.
01:38:53 <pikhq> hoxs64 appears to be perfect but DOESN'T HAVE SOURCE.
01:38:56 <elliott> Are you ready... for the future? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
01:38:57 <pikhq> elliott: Gameboy Advance.
01:39:08 <pikhq> It's probably simpler than the SNES to emulate.
01:39:13 <elliott> pikhq: Isn't the GBA pretty damn advanced though? :p
01:39:19 <cheater99> i thought i'd check out another promo
01:39:21 <elliott> pikhq: Lord knows the GBA emulators still get updated.
01:39:25 <cheater99> i clicked and thought it can't be that bad
01:39:40 <cheater99> after exactly 7 seconds i have realized how wrong i was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99iiUtPR-fM&NR=1
01:39:57 <pikhq> It's similar to the SNES in capability, except without all the things that make emulator authors cry.
01:40:01 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.hoxs64.net/files/hoxs64.txt "Hoxs64 V1.0.0 BETA (c) 2001 David Horrocks" ""Core 2 Duo 1.5Ghz or Athlon 2Ghz or Pentium4 3Ghz."
01:40:05 <cheater99> at the 12th second i have paused because i couldn't watch on.
01:40:45 <cheater99> elliott: in fact the Hoxs64 project is a secret prototype benchmark for future generations of computer processors
01:40:58 <pikhq> (16 MHz ARM, 4/8 MHz GB-Z80, *no fucking crazy PPU*, and NO SPECIAL CHIPS. AT ALL.)
01:41:02 <elliott> cheater99: oh god, that one you linked
01:41:04 <elliott> cheater99: is the same one
01:41:06 <Vorpal> there, timed ignore expired
01:41:08 <cheater99> as they are released to the public, his nda allows him to add more architectures to the compatibility list
01:41:18 <Vorpal> cheater99, that ad, I think I saw myst in it
01:42:07 <cheater99> elliott: oh damn, i hadn't even noticed
01:42:16 <cheater99> elliott: i just paused on alienhead
01:42:19 <elliott> cheater99: then it goes on to do all sorts of things, from skipping around
01:42:23 <elliott> worst advert or best advert?
01:42:39 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, *most* emulators "still in development" don't focus much on improving emulation accuracy.
01:42:40 <elliott> pikhq: I'll start a perfect emulation project for the GBA if you'll help. :p
01:42:43 <cheater99> THE INFINITE IS ATTAINABLE WITH SEGA SATURN
01:42:48 <elliott> Right. Which is why it sounds fun.
01:42:54 <elliott> And also _easier_; I can just implement the behaviour directly.
01:42:56 <pikhq> Amusingly. SNES9x actually does improve on accuracy.
01:43:04 <elliott> pikhq: BUT YOU HAVE TO HELP because I'm supremely laz.
01:43:08 <pikhq> IIRC they now use the same sound emulation as bsnes.
01:43:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> worst advert or best advert? <-- worst by far I ever seen
01:43:26 <elliott> cheater99: BTW, NO$GBA is _meant_ to be a pretty good DS emulator for actually playing games...
01:43:32 <elliott> Vorpal: But is it the worst or the _best_?
01:43:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I can imagine Lynch creating that.
01:43:50 <cheater99> elliott: but it doesn't work for XX XY which immediately disqualifies it
01:43:55 <cheater99> and you only find out when you get to scene 8.
01:44:26 <pikhq> elliott: FIrst and foremost, use Byuu's libco.
01:44:32 <Vorpal> elliott, the one with the woman looks like it would be against Swedish law. Gender discrimination.
01:44:33 <pikhq> elliott: That alone will save you a lot of effort.
01:44:43 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, as an *ad* in Sweden
01:44:46 <elliott> Vorpal: You mean the thing at the start?
01:44:52 <Vorpal> the thing at the start
01:44:53 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpA3RJyyVSk
01:44:58 <cheater99> vectorman and ecco were really cool
01:45:00 <elliott> Vorpal: What if it was immediately followed by the same thing with a man.
01:45:05 <cheater99> the one game i had never beat: the ooze
01:45:12 <Vorpal> elliott, doubt it would help if it was a man
01:45:29 <elliott> pikhq: Is libco anything but coroutines?
01:45:42 <elliott> pikhq: But there are hundreds of coroutine libs.
01:45:48 <Vorpal> elliott, also what was the target audience? kids?
01:45:50 <pikhq> libco's small and simple.
01:46:02 <elliott> Vorpal: 13-year-olds who think it's cool.
01:46:05 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNbx53ErzQ
01:46:06 <elliott> pikhq: X-D Look at the first post on http://byuu.org/.
01:46:15 <elliott> pikhq: I sure hope he's not planning to upgrade that to Advance.
01:46:15 <Vorpal> elliott, if kids they would have been into /deep shit/ in Sweden with such an ad.
01:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, because then stricter rules apply
01:46:27 <pikhq> elliott: He's not even intending to upgrade that to Color.
01:46:39 <Ilari> What about PC emulation (for playing those DOS games that no longer work well under modern OSes)?
01:46:50 <pikhq> elliott: It's meant to replace Gambatte for his Super Gameboy emulation.
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01:47:00 <elliott> Ilari: Bochs is pretty much cycle-accurate PC emulation.
01:47:04 <elliott> DOSBox is usually more useful, though.
01:47:20 <elliott> pikhq: So will you at least half-heartedly help with a GBA emulation project or do I have to be all alone :p
01:47:32 <pikhq> I may well help with it.
01:47:53 <pikhq> Though I wish I had a GBA flash cart so we could actually do hardware tests when necessary.
01:47:58 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, didn't you say you'd port bsnes' Qt UI to libsnes? Seems he's already done that and looking for a maintainer ...
01:48:16 <cheater99> "my megadrive, which is the japamanese original one"
01:48:21 <pikhq> And maintainers have already stepped up before I saw that. :P
01:48:22 <elliott> pikhq: Also, that would be nice. Aren't they still sold?
01:48:48 <elliott> "As a consequence, the bsnes download page has removed reference to the old bsnes/Qt v070 release. This site will only focus on pure accuracy at any cost. I am hoping that the future Qt maintainer can set up a page for casual SNES emulator users to peruse."
01:48:55 <elliott> Is he trying to... become an emulation academic?
01:49:10 <pikhq> Though it's possible later consoles actually change details.
01:49:19 <pikhq> elliott: He actually did not graduate from high school.
01:49:19 <elliott> pikhq: I mean the flash carts.
01:49:26 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, totally.
01:49:35 <pikhq> I have a GBA from launch.
01:49:45 <elliott> pikhq: I have an Advanced SP but not an original Advanced, but I'm faaairly sure they're absolutely identical internals-wise.
01:49:51 <elliott> Except with a BACKLIGHT which is a killer feature.
01:49:56 <pikhq> Probably, but not necessarily.
01:50:16 <pikhq> The SNES's smaller revision actually changed a lot of details, for instance.
01:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, perfect gba emulation? cool
01:50:35 <elliott> Oh, it's atually frontlit. Ha.
01:50:35 <Vorpal> perfect gameshark emulation too?
01:50:40 <elliott> pikhq: Eh, I can always eBay.
01:50:44 <pikhq> (it's effectively the same as a cheap SNES clone from China, as far as capabilities go.)
01:50:59 <pikhq> (yes, this means bsnes is more accurate than some "real" SNES's)
01:51:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Paaatches welcome, I have no idea about the GBA hardware so this will basically be a diary of learning in version control form :)
01:51:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well I have no GBA hardware
01:51:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so I'm pretty much useless on this
01:51:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Fairly cheap right now.
01:51:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The hardware won't help me *much*; I'll probably end up scouring the web for documentation to start with.
01:51:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, not sure I really care enough to get a gba
01:51:58 <elliott> Aw, but the GBA is a really nice cons... sort of.
01:52:06 <elliott> ...I can't actually think of many good non-Pokemon games for it really.
01:52:17 <pikhq> elliott: Sonic Advance was decent.
01:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, zelda's link awakening?
01:52:34 <elliott> Oh, yeah, the Zeldas are probably good, never got around to playing any Zelda games on GBA.
01:52:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh right. But I played it in visual boy advance?
01:52:43 <pikhq> Also, ports of good games.
01:52:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which also emulates the GB/GBC.
01:52:55 <pikhq> Inaccurately, but hey.
01:53:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah, so this won't work in your emulator then?
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01:53:11 <pikhq> It's actually not too much work to add GB or GBC emulation to a GBA emulator.
01:53:26 <Vorpal> well zelda is cool. Needs to be there and so on
01:53:26 <pikhq> The GBA uses the GB-Z80 for some sound effects.
01:53:55 <elliott> pikhq is just helping because I'm forcing him to.
01:54:13 <Vorpal> elliott, right got it. You are the figure head.
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01:54:55 * pikhq wonders how painful the ARM is.
01:55:37 <elliott> pikhq: o god, i have to emulate an arm?
01:55:48 <pikhq> elliott: Main CPU.
01:55:50 <elliott> Oh god, it's Thumb too. All new and modern.
01:55:54 <pikhq> It has a 16 MHz ARM.
01:56:20 <Vorpal> couldn't you reuse ARM code from qemu or something?
01:56:23 <elliott> iPod, Lego Mindstorms, Roomba...
01:56:32 <cheater99> what you really want to emulate is a directx8 pc for games
01:56:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt that's cycle-accurate.
01:56:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I beg to differ
01:56:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: qemu is very solidly not an accurate emulator.
01:56:40 <Vorpal> elliott, lego mindstorms NXT sure
01:56:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's like a half-JIT.
01:56:57 <elliott> You're the only person with a shitty enough university to care about mindstorms >:)
01:57:00 <Vorpal> elliott, but RCX used a H8300
01:57:10 <elliott> pikhq: Maaybe not the GBA then... ARM sounds kinda painful.
01:57:11 <nooga> ennough with this mc
01:57:16 <pikhq> Probably works just fine for emulating a Linux system, but game consoles tend to care about a lot of annoying details.
01:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hey this I care about due to my free time
01:57:22 <elliott> nooga: buy it and you can get on our server :p
01:57:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Ahh, so you're just hopeless then!
01:57:36 <Vorpal> elliott, elliott anyway RCX has a Hitachi H8300
01:57:53 <Vorpal> elliott, they sold the division
01:58:00 <coppro> I can't think of what though
01:58:03 <Vorpal> elliott, nvidia cpus next
01:58:06 <elliott> coppro: HELP ME WRITE A PERFECT GBA EMULATOR.
01:58:11 <coppro> which is weird because I'm pretty sure it's like one thing
01:58:25 <coppro> ima go one-line more project euler in Haskell
01:58:26 <elliott> Vorpal: ATI CPUs, yes; well, AMD Vision CPUs, which will just be called AMD CPUs.
01:58:43 <pikhq> I actually bet the Atari is a royal pain to emulate.
01:58:46 <elliott> coppro: Q: What do J users call the activity that other languages' users call "one-lining"? A: Half-charactering.
01:58:49 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H8_Family
01:58:58 <Vorpal> elliott, "H8 is the name of a large family of 8-bit and 16-bit microcontrollers made by Renesas Technology, originating in the early 1990s within Hitachi Semiconductor and still actively evolving as of 2006."
01:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe they were Hitachi when the first RCX were produced
01:59:34 <Vorpal> and then later they become Renesas for later model RCX
01:59:45 <Vorpal> I'm not about to pry my two RCX open to check though
01:59:46 <elliott> Renesas. Sounds terrorist.
02:00:12 <cheater99> mr spock is having a seizure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvgteRnaIhA&feature=related
02:00:35 <elliott> pikhq: Before I get started on any of this though, I need to get Ubuntu installed.
02:00:43 <pikhq> Especially as almost every game more advanced than Pong was actually exploiting unintended hardware features.
02:00:50 <elliott> pikhq: Look at what OS X gives me:
02:00:50 <cheater99> say what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytwbGVExWi8&feature=related
02:00:52 <elliott> pikhq: i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1 (GCC) 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5664)
02:01:03 <elliott> pikhq: Did I mention you have to use -fnested-functions to get nested functions? For no reason?
02:01:10 <coppro> elliott: am I a bad person: triangles n = (:) <*> (:[]) . (+1)
02:01:17 <elliott> coppro: haha they're smiling
02:01:56 <pikhq> Heck, displaying more than 2 sprites on the 2600 required using hardware bugs.
02:01:57 <elliott> 02:01 elliott: @pl ((:) <*> (:[])) . (+1)
02:01:57 <elliott> 02:01 lambdabot: ((:) <*> return) . (1 +)
02:02:00 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, isn't .|. bitwise or in haskell?
02:02:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Umm, if you import Data.Bits I think.
02:02:26 <elliott> pikhq: Any console ideas that don't involve ARM?
02:02:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it always looked so dirty to me :P
02:02:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what about GBC?
02:02:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yeah, you're doing bitwise manipulations, you should feel dirt.
02:02:54 <elliott> Vorpal: GBC has been done perfectly, I believe.
02:03:09 <elliott> pikhq: Fuck you, man, N64 is where high-level emulators got INVENTED :P
02:03:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: 100% game and demo compatibility has been achieved by two *different* emulators for the GBC.
02:03:28 <Ilari> Proper N64 rerecording emulation would be pretty big deal...
02:03:41 <Vorpal> Ilari, quite. Will you help elliott on this?
02:03:44 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, because nobody bothered emulating the RDP right.
02:03:49 <elliott> Ilari: Don't believe his lies.
02:03:53 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not doing N64. Ever.
02:04:02 <cheater99> i want one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXHM1I8wgtc&feature=related
02:04:17 <pikhq> Hmm. I'm actually unsure about the Sega family of systems.
02:04:31 <elliott> Not even if the Singularity comes and we all get infinite lifespans to spend how I wish, and I perform every other possible action such that each action in the set can be performed in a time span of 700 billion years or less,
02:04:32 <pikhq> (Master System/Genesis/Game Gear)
02:04:40 <elliott> not even then will I write a cycle-accurate N64 emulator.
02:04:41 <Ilari> As would be proper rerecording emulation of Sega Saturn or Sega Dreamcast...
02:04:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, which one was RDP then?
02:05:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: You could upload microcode to it, and many games did this.
02:05:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: N64 emulators just emulate the behavior of the microcode instead.
02:05:35 <elliott> Not only will a metal ball the size of the sun be worn down by solar winds before I emulate the N64, but entire universes will be simulated from start to finish such that if each universe took up a quark it would result in a ball the size of the sun when packed together with no empty space between them at all.
02:05:48 <elliott> And even then, I will not write a cycle-accurate Nintendo 64 emulator.
02:05:49 <pikhq> This works for a *large* number of games (because few people actually *wrote* microcode), but quite a few get left out.
02:05:54 <elliott> pikhq: DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET
02:06:10 <elliott> OR AM I NOT BEING QUITE EXPRESSIVE ENOUGH
02:06:19 <pikhq> elliott: Cycle-accurate might be unneeded.
02:06:47 <elliott> pikhq: Even if your mother loses SO MUCH WEIGHT that she's actually NO LONGER CLASSED AS OBESE — which would take longer than the universe will last — I will not write a Nintendo 64 emulator.
02:06:55 <elliott> ...okay, maybe if /that/ much time passes I will.
02:07:33 <cheater99> susan plays streets of rage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyaiGLITrN8&feature=related
02:07:35 <pikhq> I do not know of an accurate emulator for the Genesis.
02:07:44 <elliott> pikhq: I do not know of any good games for the Genesis.
02:07:51 <pikhq> elliott: Sonic Sonic Sonic!
02:08:21 <pikhq> Though that would be a *royal* pain if you want to emulate the 32x or the CD as well.
02:08:23 <cheater99> elliott: you should make an emulator that JUST runs sonic 1/2/3/k
02:08:37 <elliott> I want to write an emulator that JUST runs the 8-bit Sonic.
02:08:40 <pikhq> Easy if you want to emulate the Game Gear or the Master System, or the SG-1000...
02:08:45 <elliott> Before they decided that the best way to market consoles was to make him run REALLY FAST.
02:08:49 <elliott> (Stupidest decision ever?)
02:09:16 <pikhq> (Sega's systems before the Saturn were based around the same hardware)
02:09:27 <elliott> I don't actually /like/ most of the Sonic games.
02:09:36 <pikhq> (many of them were even electrically compatible)
02:09:44 <elliott> When you reduce the majority of play to going really fast, you don't have any game left.
02:10:28 <elliott> (see http://newbreview.com/2010/07/22/retro-fix-sonic-the-hedgehog-8-bit/, btw)
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02:11:24 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe I'll perfectly emulate a seriously fucked up fictional system whose only game is I Wanna Be The Guy.
02:11:42 <coppro> but I do wanna be the guy
02:12:01 <elliott> pikhq: Perhaps I'll design my own architecture based on the IWBTG executable. "Why, this complicated Windows API call? Looks like a really long CPU instruction to me!"
02:12:11 <elliott> So that the .exe works as a ROM. :p
02:13:13 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBVn0g7fZTU&feature=related WTF
02:13:18 <Sgeo> "Dig straight down"
02:13:31 <Ilari> Good PC rerecording emulation would also be quite a deal (so far PC rerecording emulation is pretty much garbage).
02:13:43 <elliott> Sgeo: Digging straight down is not deadly if you're, say, on the surface and just doing it for a few blocks ...
02:14:04 <pikhq> Ilari: Rerecording is actually pretty easy if you've got cycle-accurate emulation.
02:14:22 <pikhq> You pretty much just need the ability to serialise after a clock cycle, and restore that.
02:14:38 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2mpcssg274&feature=related < 1:20
02:14:44 <elliott> Ilari: How is that Nethack TAS going btw?
02:14:57 <pikhq> Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately.
02:15:04 <pikhq> Everything changes from system to system!
02:15:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Holy shit this is overcomplicated.
02:16:10 <Ilari> elliott: Seems like turn 317, fighting The Wizard of Yendor.
02:16:13 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Of course, the PC is freaking painful to do cycle-accurately. <pikhq> Everything changes from system to system! <-- then you probably don't need it. Since nothing will assume cycle accurate anyway
02:16:21 <elliott> Ilari: RNG hackery I presume? :)
02:16:34 <elliott> Vorpal: You need it for perfect TASing.
02:16:44 <elliott> Since the goal is basically "take as few cycles as possible".
02:16:52 <Vorpal> elliott, perfect in the sense it could not be done on a real machine?
02:17:16 <pikhq> Well, it may be needed, but only for early PC games.
02:17:24 <pikhq> Like, the original IBM PC.
02:17:44 <elliott> Vorpal: That applies to all TASes, pretty much.
02:17:51 <elliott> cheater99: done, it's called emacs
02:18:16 <cheater99> elliott: what about emulating an lcd game?
02:19:37 <elliott> I'll emulate anything simpler than an ARM :P
02:20:03 <pikhq> elliott: Atari 2600?
02:20:05 <elliott> cheater99: bit pointless :P
02:20:16 <elliott> pikhq: I thought you just said that wast he land of *insane* hardware glithces.
02:20:21 <Sgeo> elliott, I pretty much stopped watching, got distracted
02:20:28 <pikhq> elliott: *And* NTSC artifacts!
02:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, why not make a cycle accurate calculator emulator? Say, TI-82 or some such
02:20:53 <pikhq> Also, no framebuffer.
02:20:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Aren't there already?
02:20:56 <Vorpal> elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculator_gaming
02:21:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if they are cycle accurate
02:21:05 <elliott> I know perfectly well tyvm
02:21:20 <elliott> If people arnen't stupid enough they will understand that it is FAKE
02:21:27 <cheater99> elliott: why is arm so difficult to emulate?
02:21:34 <elliott> cheater99: it's just a complicated normalarchitecture
02:22:02 <pikhq> cheater99: Some newer consoles are probably worse than just dealing with the ARM, though.
02:22:14 <pikhq> Namely, ones where you need to emulate a large number of CPUs.
02:22:23 <pikhq> (looking at *you*, Sony.)
02:22:23 <elliott> Sgeo: dunno if it is fake though
02:22:31 <elliott> Sgeo: it looks real enough, but it'd be one-use
02:22:32 <cheater99> ds is just arm7 and arm9 or something like that
02:22:44 <Sgeo> elliott, I didn't even watch it
02:22:50 <Sgeo> I'm talking to someone >.>
02:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, generic cycle accurate ARM emulator. Then you can just add on some custom code for each of the ARM products. And you done lots of different consoles and tools
02:23:27 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHMiJFfsEj4&NR=1
02:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do a roomba emulator even (not sure why though!)
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02:23:36 <elliott> Vorpal: ROOMBA EMULATOR OMG YES
02:23:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd put it in horrible mazes and watch it suffer.
02:23:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I knew you would love that
02:23:54 <elliott> And then put it in a huge clean room with no obstacles because I feel sorry for it.
02:24:00 <elliott> cheater99: a robot that cleans.
02:24:10 <pikhq> cheater99: And the Gameboy is "just" an ARM7 and a GB-Z80.
02:24:23 <pikhq> Erm, Gameboy Advance.
02:24:30 <pikhq> The Gameboy is just a GB-Z80.
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02:24:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about GBC?
02:24:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: Twice the clock rate, same CPU.
02:26:06 <elliott> pikhq: Are you suuuure the GBC is cycle-perfected?
02:27:16 <elliott> coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity
02:29:12 <Sgeo> Yay, we scheduled a day
02:30:21 <elliott> Sgeo: Stop alluding to Alluded-To.
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02:32:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> coppro: emulated perfectly to cycle granularity <-- what, no more
02:32:26 <Vorpal> elliott, emulate the actual transistors
02:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott, with quantum noise!
02:32:53 <cheater99> Vorpal: what about background radiation
02:32:59 <Vorpal> cheater99, that too of course
02:33:01 <elliott> variable: cycle-perfect emulation
02:33:09 <elliott> variable: i.e., perfect emulation down to the cycle level of every internal piece of hardware
02:33:27 <Vorpal> cheater99, and thermal noise of course
02:33:27 <zzo38> Nintendo DS is ARM7 and ARM9. Official games all use the standard ARM7 code, though. Homebrew games will use their own ARM7 codes, so you will need to emulate the ARM7 if you want to emulate homebrew Nintendo DS programs.
02:34:05 * Sgeo lols at "quckly"
02:34:15 <Sgeo> It's not as though the flow of water will stop
02:34:23 <elliott> cheater99: no, way too much work
02:34:40 <cheater99> elliott: you want to make an XX XY emulator
02:35:58 <zzo38> I wrote a GameBoy game once, I had to add a extra VBLANK to make it work on Goomba emulator
02:36:46 <variable> { I have 23 second lag now - so my questions/comments may seem a bit off - sorry }
02:37:44 <cheater99> elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator
02:38:15 <cheater99> elliott: make a (working and usable) eniac emulator IN MINECRAFT
02:38:28 <elliott> cheater99: i've played the tic-tac-toe game on an eniac emulator iirc
02:38:54 <pikhq> elliott: Gambatte and KiGB do so.
02:38:55 <variable> cheater99, don't take a productive member of society and encourage him to play minecraft
02:39:06 <cheater99> variable: encourage? he needs no encouragement
02:39:17 <elliott> variable: Dude, I already play Minecraft :P
02:39:26 <elliott> And I'm nooooot a productive member of society except by really strange definitions.
02:39:34 <pikhq> elliott: With a cycle-accurate emulation, you can do mode 7-like effects on there.
02:39:49 <elliott> WHY HAS EVERYONE GOT TO PLACES BEFORE I GET TO PLACES
02:39:56 <pikhq> Yes, with hardware that's on par with the NES.
02:40:57 <pikhq> (note: unintended feature)
02:41:02 <cheater99> elliott: i thought GBC wasn't very different from GB
02:41:22 <zzo38> cheater99: No it is basically the same. Just it is color
02:41:29 <pikhq> zzo38: And double clock-rate.
02:41:42 <pikhq> Which is fairly easy to account for.
02:41:43 <zzo38> pikhq: It supports double clock-rate but you can switch it at run-time
02:41:50 <cheater99> yea, so why would gbc be that different from gb to warrant: <elliott> GB, sure, but GBC? ?
02:42:09 <elliott> cheater99: because the extra bits might not be perfect yet! :P
02:42:13 <pikhq> GBC emulation comes almost for free from GB emulation.
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02:42:34 <elliott> pikhq: [[Lastly, there was the case of Speedy Gonzales. In level 6-1, there is a switch that needs to be hit to finish the level. Up until recently, this game would lock up any emulator when it was hit. You can probably imagine why this was overlooked, but it's quite a big deal to play a game that long and instantly lose all of your progress due to an emulation bug. In this case, it actually turns out to be a bug in the game itself. B
02:42:35 <elliott> ut as it works on hardware, it needs to work under emulation as well. It is reading from an unmapped memory address, and will not break out of this loop until it gets the value it wants. As it turns out, after so many tests, eventually the read will happen immediately after an HDMA transfer, which will update the S-CPU's memory data register, giving the game the value it needs to break out of the loop.]]
02:42:50 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes he is.
02:43:04 <elliott> byuu: we won't hold it against you if you just lie down for a day. srsly.
02:43:31 <pikhq> elliott: He actually doesn't do *too* much of the hardware testing.
02:43:47 <pikhq> Though his dump-all-SNES-games project is positively crazy.
02:43:55 <pikhq> In the awesome sort of way, of course.
02:44:04 <elliott> [[blargg's S-DSP core is known to be 100% bit-perfect to real hardware, with the one exception that the mute command is instant, and does not exhibit a very fast fade-out effect.]]
02:44:16 <elliott> TRASH IT OUT AND WRITE A NEW ONE
02:44:23 <pikhq> elliott: Analog...
02:45:11 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EMX8qIgWOs
02:46:37 <elliott> pikhq: Srsly, computers should come with reprogrammable analogue hardware. :D
02:46:42 <cheater99> elliott: make a cycle accurate emulation of a DX-7 with the option of scaling it up to 64 fs
02:46:57 <elliott> cheater99: Those sound effects are fake, right?
02:47:01 <elliott> Or is it actaully hooked up to a speaker?
02:47:06 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know how to make up such computer hardware?
02:47:09 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know who's crazy? Dr. Decapitator.
02:47:26 <elliott> pikhq: Anyone who purports to be a doctor and then decapitates people is crazy.
02:47:33 <elliott> cheater99: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMmUciXRMaI&feature=related realistic
02:47:45 <pikhq> elliott: He decaps chips for MAME, and has been doing so for bsnes as well.
02:48:10 <elliott> pikhq: I should write a CYCLE-ACCURATE emulator of the MT-32.
02:48:13 <elliott> pikhq: Note: The MT-32 is analogue.
02:48:18 <cheater99> i don't think there's even any sort of pcm sound on the ti 83
02:48:23 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously, why don't computers come with reprogrammable analogue.
02:48:30 <elliott> cheater99: just generate raw pcm data and send it over a wire :D
02:48:31 <pikhq> se'hųku ni site, ne.
02:48:44 <pikhq> Commit suicide, right?
02:48:46 <zzo38> I think the TI-83 has no built-in sound at all (although you could connect an external speaker)
02:49:18 <pikhq> zzo38: It had a TSR jack connected to a UART...
02:49:27 <pikhq> zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there.
02:49:47 <cheater99> and with PWM, you could totally emulate normal sound
02:49:53 <zzo38> pikhq: If you have such a calculator, could you try that?
02:49:54 <cheater99> what frequency did the uart work at?
02:50:57 <elliott> [[The past three years have been amazing. I know that SNES emulation can never be 100% perfect, but I finally feel that I have reached a point where I could walk away from bsnes and feel that my job is done. That the SNES hardware is very well preserved for future generations.]]
02:51:01 <elliott> I bet he questions that not-100% thing now.
02:51:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> zzo38: You could *probably* get square wave audio out of there. <-- been done
02:51:26 <Vorpal> I have a TI-83+ but they connector is not a normal speaker connector I think
02:51:41 <pikhq> Uh, 9600 kbit/s. Knowing how serial works, that gets you... 76.8 MHz audio.
02:51:55 <pikhq> 76.8 MHz, 1 bit audio.
02:52:23 <elliott> pikhq: Ha. MAME SNES emulation is worse than something called "ESNES".
02:52:26 <pikhq> Which is still enough for *recognisable* audio.
02:52:28 <zzo38> Is that a good enough audio to make a telephone noise?
02:52:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, TI-83/83+ has crazy cable
02:52:59 <cheater99> it's sort of like 16 khz 4 bit audio
02:53:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, the computer link had to include a PIC to deal with translating to something that the computer could use
02:53:31 <cheater99> which is going to go up to say 8 khz
02:53:38 <cheater99> so you could do speech... very nasty speech
02:54:13 <elliott> [[Oh, and believe it or not, until recently MAME/MESS used floating point for their synchronization counters.]]
02:54:22 <Vorpal> cheater99, you could do chiptune style music
02:54:30 <elliott> pikhq: 76.8 kHz is enough for anything isn't it?
02:54:41 <pikhq> Telephone is generally done with 8 kHz, 8-bit mu-law audio.
02:54:49 <cheater99> elliott: make a working mortal kombat trilogy arcade emulator, cycle-accurate
02:55:04 <pikhq> But yeah, you could *definitely* get workable audio out of there.
02:55:34 <cheater99> pikhq: yeah, it could definitely work
02:55:38 <cheater99> pikhq: someone would have to try it
02:55:54 <elliott> it would be cool if someone did that
02:55:57 <elliott> shame it hasn't happened yet
02:56:10 <cheater99> elliott: maybe it's just a discovery waiting to happen??
02:56:16 <elliott> cheater99: Let's try it out!
02:56:18 <cheater99> elliott: maybe the ti 83 is actually skynet!
02:56:21 <zzo38> I wrote a program once on Linux that generates a lot of telephone noises, including: arbitrary frequency, red box, blue box, silver box, dial tone, busy signal, special information tones, ...
02:56:24 <elliott> I wonder if it IS possible.
02:56:36 <cheater99> and it's waiting for us to plug earphones into the port... a digital port, connected directly to our crania
02:57:47 <pikhq> elliott: There are a few things that could be more accurately emulated on the SNES, but not *much*.
02:58:07 <elliott> pikhq: That mute-thing strikes me as one.
02:58:15 <elliott> It would be impossible to perfectly emulate the analogue behaviour of the fast fadeout.
02:58:28 <pikhq> The Cx4, used by the Megaman X2 and X3, for instance.
02:58:29 <elliott> cheater99: No, anything that isn't strictly digital.
02:58:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
02:58:37 <cheater99> elliott: it's just a simple RLC that can be easily emulated
02:58:38 <pikhq> Currently, bsnes uses a very accurate HLE.
02:58:46 <cheater99> and is easily emulated in thousands of existing softwares
02:58:48 <elliott> cheater99: I don't think a Turing machine can perfectly emulate an analogue sound effect.
02:58:51 <elliott> cheater99: Note *perfectly*.
02:58:53 <elliott> Yes, it can do it very well.
02:59:14 <elliott> cheater99: Thus 100% SNES emulation is impossible with digital computing.
02:59:14 <cheater99> but emulation is different from reproduction
02:59:21 <elliott> cheater99: bsnes is very much a reproducer.
02:59:29 <pikhq> Until recently, the DSPs were likewise.
02:59:29 <elliott> Yes, also called perfect emulation.
02:59:45 <cheater99> /dev/urandom is a 100% snes emulator, for my emulation goal
02:59:59 <elliott> cheater99: emulation is not used in that way.
03:00:02 <elliott> when referring to console emulation.
03:00:06 <elliott> it is used to mean reproduction.
03:00:12 <elliott> usually very inaccurate reproduction.
03:00:15 <pikhq> And the ST-0011 and ST-0010 are completely unemulated.
03:00:36 <pikhq> The ST-0011 is partially emulated via HLE.
03:00:50 <cheater99> elliott: i still say the DX 7 should be your goal
03:01:04 <elliott> cheater99: i don't like synths :/
03:01:08 <cheater99> (the fm part is actually very intricate)
03:01:12 <elliott> I might emulate an SK-1 :)
03:01:31 <cheater99> it's pretty much a huge computer with sound output
03:02:00 <pikhq> Also, the Satellaview is effectively impossible to emulate.
03:02:05 * elliott listens to Shnabubula's performance of All Blues.
03:02:12 <pikhq> (due to having been unusable for years now)
03:02:40 <cheater99> http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sync.jpg
03:02:52 <elliott> Y TOO BUSY LISTENING TO JAZZ
03:03:10 <cheater99> notice huge ribbon cable connecting it to keyboard
03:03:11 <elliott> the fairlight cmi is insane isn't it
03:03:12 <pikhq> Well, if you have a TARDIs it'd be easy.
03:03:35 <pikhq> In which case you could even get a *dump* of all of the games for it.
03:03:38 <cheater99> http://retrothing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/fmsynth.jpg THREE DEE!
03:03:42 <pikhq> (which is likewise impossible)
03:03:54 <cheater99> elliott: meh, the fairlight ain't so hot
03:03:59 <elliott> pikhq: what games don't exist any more?
03:04:46 <pikhq> elliott: The games were downloaded via satellite and stored on a flash cart.
03:05:18 <pikhq> A dump can *only* exist if someone happened to keep it from when it was broadcast.
03:05:35 <pikhq> Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*.
03:05:45 <zzo38> I have a different kind of emulation idea. You have in the emulator, emulation of various processors, video units, audio units, input units. etc. And then the file it loads indicates which ones are used and what memory mapping and a few other options.
03:05:46 <cheater99> Despite a slow system clock the processor was extremely efficient at moving data around (a one cycle multiply/divide math's co-processor being very advanced for the time) so efficient in fact, that NASA used the computer on board space craft resulting in the processor being classed as classified computer equipment, not to be sold to countries outside the COCAM agreement and no technical details to be distributed outside of the United Sta
03:05:47 <cheater99> tes. NED also developed their own Operating System, Scientific XP/L, again bypassing limitations of available Operating Systems. So with this dedicated processor it was possible to add new hardware as and when it became available, in some cases the additions enhancing the processor by sharing the workload with it.
03:05:57 <cheater99> if that's not worthy of emulation what is
03:05:58 <pikhq> zzo38: bsnes does this.
03:06:09 <elliott> 03:05 pikhq: Also, some of the games actually had voice acting via *live broadcast*.
03:06:12 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, except it only handles the SNES, but hey.
03:06:15 <elliott> zzo38: yeah, bsnes does that.
03:06:34 <elliott> cheater99: http://ns2.opencollective.cc/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/
03:06:38 <elliott> STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND LISTEN TO THIS
03:06:55 <cheater99> Sorry, we are unable to find the page you've requested. If you've typed the URL yourself, check for any spelling mistakes you might have made. If you've followed a broken link, bla bla bla. Please click back or visit our homepage at 8bc.org.
03:07:03 <pikhq> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Satellaview_broadcasts If it has SoundLink support, it's literally impossible to reproduce the game without a time machine.
03:07:11 <elliott> cheater99: http://8bc.org/music/Shnabubula/All+Blues+(VRC6)/
03:07:24 <pikhq> Even *if* you have the ROM.
03:07:30 <elliott> miles davis would have approved
03:07:57 <elliott> cheater99: have you heard it before or did you make that judgement based on three seconds :-P
03:08:02 <zzo38> I am thinking something a bit different. A more general form. And the loaded file, instead of the ROM file, is a collection file. You then convert it for the official or homebrew game or whatever you run.
03:08:38 <cheater99> i heard it before in the normal form.. and i made that judgement based on three seconds
03:09:09 <cheater99> elliott: do you know of the midibox sid?
03:09:27 <elliott> no, but it's probably worse than e.g. the hardsid.
03:09:42 <zzo38> cheater99: What is a midibox sid?
03:09:44 <elliott> cheater99: what, than the studio edition?
03:09:49 <elliott> cheater99: http://www.hardsid.com/hardsid_4u.php
03:09:57 <cheater99> it has the best update rate for the sid
03:10:12 <elliott> cheater99: 8 khz isn't so bad. :p
03:10:41 <cheater99> as opposed to hardsid being a non-interactive box
03:10:44 <elliott> just buy a c64 and wire up data ports to it, it's the only way to get the real sound
03:10:47 <cheater99> where you point and click and go to sleep
03:11:54 <cheater99> the midibox sid is compatible with any operating system that can access a UART
03:12:30 <elliott> cheater99: the UART is just the politically correct version of the LART.
03:12:33 <cheater99> so it is also compatible with any operating system that can somehow communicate with ethernet
03:13:04 <cheater99> LART is a single-board computer (SBC) designed by staff of the University of Delft/Netherlands. The creators advertise complete layout by means of CAD files ...
03:13:52 <cheater99> and i hung out with the guy who made it at his flat :p we did a rock-out nite with some other dudes
03:14:20 <zzo38> Do you think 31 character for each original and destination word forms is enough for plural making rules?
03:14:56 <cheater99> not if you're talking about airplanes
03:15:37 <zzo38> elliott: What about airplanes?
03:15:51 <zzo38> cheater99: What does this have to do with airplanes?
03:16:08 <cheater99> there was a volcano with a long name obscuring flights lately
03:19:00 <cheater99> now i want to hear freddie freeloader done like this
03:19:07 <elliott> cheater99: http://kindofbloop.com/
03:19:11 <elliott> cheater99: it's from a whole remake of the album
03:19:22 <elliott> pirating it works but it's kind of a dick since the royalties cost $$$$loads
03:19:28 <cheater99> is $5 some sort of memory address?
03:19:29 <elliott> brought to you by http://waxy.org/
03:19:44 <elliott> http://kindofbloop.com/samples/02_freddie_freeloader_sample.mp3 :p
03:20:34 <elliott> "Kind of Bloop is available for digital download in high-quality MP3 and FLAC format for $5.00, cheap."
03:20:37 <elliott> cheater99: it's just the sample /shrug
03:20:44 <elliott> i remember when it was still in Kickstarter phase
03:20:47 <cheater99> elliott: i know, but i need the flac
03:20:49 <elliott> the royalties cost ridiculous amounts
03:20:55 <elliott> cheater99: for the _30 second preview_?
03:21:01 <elliott> cheater99: the All Blues you listened to was mp3.
03:21:14 <cheater99> elliott: they should've made it free
03:21:23 <elliott> cheater99: impossible, with the costs
03:21:38 <elliott> find the blog posts yourself, i'm too lazy
03:21:58 <elliott> i don't remember exactly. it's stupid music industry bullshit
03:22:00 <elliott> this is the kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/waxpancake/kind-of-bloop-an-8-bit-tribute-to-miles-davis
03:22:05 <cheater99> you can't own/copyright/patent a MELODY
03:22:07 <elliott> To create this album, I hope to raise $2,000 to pay royalties, pay the artists, and print CDs. Legally releasing cover songs requires paying mechanical licenses to the song publishers through the Harry Fox Agency, totaling about $420 for every 250 downloads and a $75 processing fee. I'll be using the remainder to print a very limited run of CDs for Kickstarter backers, and split the rest evenly among the five musicians for their pains
03:22:07 <elliott> taking work. (This is a labor of love for me, so I won't be keeping a dime.)
03:22:09 <pikhq> cheater99: BTW, that was Eyjafjallajökull.
03:22:21 <cheater99> hence, any new performance is a new thing.
03:22:33 <elliott> cheater99: your opinions are irrelevant in the face of what is actually the case.
03:23:25 * Sgeo hopes that what cheater99 said is true
03:23:33 <cheater99> i'm not fully sure on the legal aspect of this
03:23:37 <elliott> Sgeo: it is, as demonstrated by my quote, false.
03:23:42 <elliott> copyright law is fucked up, that is obvious and irrelevant.
03:23:44 <Sgeo> If not, I've participated in copyright infringement, as so has AWLD
03:23:45 <pikhq> Odd word construction courtesy of being a fairly conservative North Germanic language.
03:23:47 <elliott> what is relevant is what is the actual case
03:23:55 <elliott> Sgeo: OH GOD COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
03:23:56 <cheater99> but i think there's some confusion in that post.
03:24:12 <Sgeo> elliott, companies should be more careful than individuals
03:24:26 <elliott> cheater99: andy baio /has/ been at this for _rather_ a long time
03:24:27 <cheater99> elliott: that's ok, since we have separate consciousnae
03:25:08 <elliott> cheater99: face it, even if it is the case, legally, the agency could sue him off the face of the earth
03:25:55 <Sgeo> GAMESTATE RECALCULATION
03:26:38 <cheater99> elliott: i still think eniac in minecraft is yet to be done
03:26:50 <cheater99> that freddie freeloader sample is not interesting at all i fear
03:27:03 <zzo38> Did John Cage use any dynamics in his 4'33" music?
03:27:11 <elliott> cheater99: 30 seconds != however long freddy freeloader is
03:27:32 <elliott> cheater99: just checked. you heard a whopping 5% of the track.
03:27:38 <cheater99> yes, but the original had much more depth and wasn't full of shitty little kiddie arpeggios that made no sense
03:28:07 <cheater99> the other track we have listened had translated the depth much better
03:28:12 <elliott> It doesn't have to be a 1:1 replica.
03:28:26 <elliott> Depth is a vague and subjective concept; it seems you are just trying to belittle it without actually making any arguments that it's an inferior work.
03:28:29 <cheater99> no, but 1:00000000000000000000000.1 isn't good either
03:28:38 <elliott> cheater99: you mean 1:0.1?
03:28:42 <elliott> not sure why you bothered with those 0s.
03:28:56 <zzo38> Maybe he means s/1:0/1:10/ ?
03:29:14 <cheater99> it's a subconscious tactic of showing my perceived worth
03:29:40 <zzo38> Or s/0(0*)\./0.$1/ ?
03:30:03 <elliott> 1:0.000000000000000000001 sure
03:30:05 <cheater99> so as far as in the light of law i only said it's worth only 10 times less
03:30:09 <elliott> but 1:00000000000000.1 is exactly 0:.1.
03:30:18 <cheater99> your subconscious knows, i really mean zero.
03:30:40 <elliott> cheater99: anyway it's rather pretentious to listen to an entire 11 minute work and then say that a 30 second sample of a 10 minute work is inferior.
03:30:45 <elliott> you have to listen to the entire thing to make that kind of judgement.
03:31:02 <cheater99> elliott: i think being pretentious is what makes us human
03:31:13 <elliott> you say that only because you are pretentious.
03:31:27 <cheater99> would it be pretentious of me to admit?
03:31:48 <cheater99> i'm not saying the rest of the song must be bad
03:32:05 <cheater99> i'm just saying: the part i heard wasn't translated as well as comparable parts in the other song
03:32:31 <cheater99> now if i had a flac edition of the whole album, that might change my perception completely
03:33:11 <cheater99> seeing as i don't... i'll probably never see the light on the topic of how good the adaptation really is
03:33:58 <elliott> pikhq: I'm going to cycle-perfectly emulate YOUR CURRENT COMPUTER.
03:34:05 <elliott> Run it and it shall be perfect.
03:34:14 <elliott> cheater99: You could just, you know, spend $5.
03:34:45 <cheater99> that includes a lot of assumptions
03:35:03 <cheater99> that are not true not accordingly to my will or ability
03:35:16 <zzo38> How do you cite this article? http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Plurals.html I see nothing about a journal or book it is published in. Do you know what journal or book it belongs to?
03:35:30 <elliott> zzo38: Interestingly, people publish work without it being inside a journal or a book.
03:35:35 <elliott> zzo38: In this case, it is a "web page".
03:35:37 <cheater99> i don't have a reliable repeatable way of doing the spending
03:35:44 <elliott> cheater99: does it need to be repeatable?
03:35:57 <elliott> cheater99: Are you planning on buying the album numerous times?
03:36:12 <cheater99> no, but it needs to because there are other things such that those things are of value $5
03:36:30 <elliott> cheater99: You're not being pretentious now, just stupid.
03:36:43 <cheater99> i'm just saying i need to be able to buy breakfast too
03:36:52 <zzo38> elliott: Then how can it be cited in the bibliography?
03:37:07 <elliott> cheater99: Are you currently out of $5 each time you buy breakfast?
03:37:08 <cheater99> zzo38: look how wikipedia does it!!!!
03:37:20 <elliott> when in doubt, if wikipedia does something, do the opposite
03:37:29 <cheater99> elliott: no, because sometimes i don't buy breakfast
03:37:39 <elliott> cheater99: but breakfast is a great thing.
03:37:54 <cheater99> elliott: for those who have a repeatable source of $5's
03:38:10 <elliott> cheater99: Does a repeatable source of $5s not fund your internet? BREAKFAST OR INTERNET: THE SHOWDOWN
03:38:19 <elliott> pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/images/challenge.jpg BYUU'S FORUM WANTS ME TO DO SIMPLE ALGEBRA AT 3:37 AM WHY DOES HE HATE ME
03:38:34 <cheater99> my $5s are not available during this month or two
03:39:04 <zzo38> Should I include the name of the university in the citation?
03:39:36 <elliott> It's his work, not the uni's.
03:39:58 <cheater99> yeah, if it's a private website don't
03:40:11 <zzo38> But the name of the university is listed at the top of the article. (I already put Damian Conway's name in the citation)
03:40:17 <elliott> It's a private website that happens to be hosted on a university. :p
03:40:23 <elliott> zzo38: Yeah, but that's standard practice in "papers" of any sort.
03:40:31 <elliott> zzo38: No harm in crediting, I suppose, but I think it's purely his work.
03:40:42 <zzo38> Don't bibliography citations usually list the publisher though?
03:40:46 <cheater99> miscrediting citations can be big beef
03:40:49 <elliott> zzo38: The publisher is himself in this case.
03:40:55 <cheater99> you don't want to credit someone's work to something else
03:41:04 <zzo38> OK. Then I will just put his name, the title, and the URL.
03:41:05 <elliott> zzo38: Is the TeXnicard source available?
03:41:08 <cheater99> An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization
03:41:08 <cheater99> School of Computer Science and Software Engineering
03:41:13 <cheater99> this is just his contact info, that's all
03:42:01 <elliott> Damian Conway, Evil Overlord
03:42:02 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, so far only incomplete versions on sprunge, but eventually it will be available properly when version 0.1 is complete enough to publish in this way.
03:42:03 <cheater99> An Algorithmic Approach to English Pluralization
03:42:03 <cheater99> University of Buckdoodle, Damian Conway
03:42:04 <elliott> you'd have to credit that part too
03:42:08 <elliott> cheater99: finished your sentence for you
03:42:18 <elliott> cheater99: or even "Damian Conway, University of Nowhere"
03:42:24 <elliott> zzo38: Can I see the current version, please?
03:42:37 <zzo38> elliott: OK. Just a minute...
03:42:51 <cheater99> elliott: why thank you, that was very nice of you to finish that sentence
03:43:07 <cheater99> this means i can now go to sleep, and you can continue saying things i would say
03:43:51 <elliott> Hi I'm cheater99 and I kill puppies for fun
03:44:03 <zzo38> elliott: http://sprunge.us/TKVI
03:44:29 <zzo38> elliott: Any comments to make about it?
03:44:43 <cheater99> those dalmatians will make for a BEAUTIFUL fur!! mwahahahahah!
03:45:07 <cheater99> ok, now i'm off to dream about uranusgirl and silver head
03:48:48 <elliott> pikhq: How likely is it that anyone can convince byuu to never use XML again.
03:49:14 <pikhq> elliott: Not very. He wrote a very simple XML parser.
03:49:47 <pikhq> Aside from only handling UTF-8 instead of UTF-8 and UTF-16, it seems to be a correct implementation of *just* XML.
03:50:33 <pikhq> Shame, though, that he couldn't be convinced to use a better scheme instead.
03:50:40 <zzo38> Do you also want to see the current (incomplete) version of the file "plain.cards" (Plain TeXnicard), "texnicard_format.tex" (TeX format file for Plain TeXnicard), or "system_book_conv" (AWK program to compile a book describing the other two files)?
03:52:20 <zzo38> elliott: http://sprunge.us/UCBc
03:53:15 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98753-Ultra-Rare-NES-Cartridge-Sells-for-41-000
03:54:25 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently it'd been dumped before though X-D
03:54:38 <elliott> [[So ok, I guess this isn't some avid gamer desperately wanting to play the game (the game has been dumped afaik and a NES console + flash cart and/or PC capable of running Nestopia would cost a lot less).
03:54:38 <elliott> So the most likely reason anyone would buy at that price is because they hope to resell it even higher in a decade or so. At least that's the only "sane" reason I could find. So it's basically game speculation. That or the person(s) who bought this are billionaires and like to waste their money for shits and giggles.]]
03:56:39 <pikhq> elliott: Or it's a collector of some sort.
03:56:49 <elliott> pikhq: A crazy collector :P
03:57:04 <elliott> pikhq: Shit, I'm tempted to get a box professionally printed and sealed now.
03:57:05 <pikhq> You'd have to be if you want, say, the entire NES set.
03:57:31 <elliott> pikhq: Put a dumped cartridge inside (with professional label etc.), age the box slightly, get it professionally sealed... $41k is mine.
03:57:39 <pikhq> Or the entire US SNES set, like Byuu does.
04:06:19 <elliott> pikhq: http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=838 Dear god @ during.
04:06:29 <zzo38> Any comment about the TeXnicard files, yet?
04:08:58 <elliott> "Sometimes I wish I had focused on the Sega Genesis instead. They only have one special chip, which was only used by one game :/"
04:09:27 <pikhq> elliott: The Genesis had more than one special chip, they just got released as seperate consoles. :P
04:10:16 <elliott> [[I think it is our very own AamirM who made Regen, which basically what could be called "bgen" (as in, an accuracy focused Genesis/Mega Drive emulator).]]
04:10:19 <pikhq> And arguably the Genesis *was* a "special chip" for the Master System.
04:11:08 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions and/or questions about TeXnicard? (Or about related things?)
04:11:10 <pikhq> AamirM is also working on an N64 emulator.
04:11:34 <elliott> "And yes, N64 emulation is rather poor and most N64 emulation projects are no longer active. If I had the skills, I'd give it a shot myself, but I'm afraid it's out of my reach. Anyone up for a team effort?" — guess that's happening then.
04:11:42 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:12:13 -!- elliott has joined.
04:12:19 <elliott> I should get a list of all unregistered one-char domains some time.
04:12:23 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:14:08 <zzo38> elliott: Including unicode or not?
04:15:47 <variable> erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them
04:17:33 <variable> meh - google tells me I'm wrong - there exist 5
04:18:19 <zzo38> variable: Do you have any opinions about TeXnicard?
04:18:40 <zzo38> variable: Also, can they register unicode one character domain names?
04:20:32 <variable> zzo38, unicode domain names are mapped to punycode
04:20:47 <variable> so there are no such thing as "single letter" unicode names
04:40:11 <zzo38> variable: I know that unicode domain names are mapped to punycode. But is there punycode name that represents a single unicode character which are registered?
04:40:22 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:40:48 <variable> zzo38, as far as I am aware - yes
04:41:04 <zzo38> And, TeXnicard is,,, you can see the files: http://sprunge.us/TKVI http://sprunge.us/UCBc
04:43:27 <variable> GPLv3 :-( ah - its designed to create playing cards?
04:43:59 <zzo38> Yes it is designed to create playing cards.
04:44:20 <zzo38> Is there anything you do not like about GPLv3?
04:45:19 <variable> its less free than in it could be and restricts commercial modification (and often therefore support) of the code
04:46:03 <zzo38> How does it restrict commercial modification?
04:46:06 <variable> I'll have to play around with the code tomorrow to see what kind of cards I could create :-}
04:46:17 <zzo38> variable: It is incomplete. You cannot create any cards yet.
04:46:32 <zzo38> But you can make opinion of what I have so far.
04:47:43 <variable> if a company wants to base a product around the source code - for example MacOS/FreeBSD
04:48:01 <variable> they would have to release the source code - which means that they would probably not want to use that project
04:48:12 <variable> which means one less contributor (usually)
04:48:37 <variable> b) the GPL lies about freedom - making it seem that its a binary thing "either your free or your not"
04:48:50 <pikhq> variable: a) That is the whole *point* of the GPL.
04:49:01 <pikhq> variable: b) How does the GPL do that?
04:49:03 <zzo38> That is the intention. That if someone wants to make something they have to give everyone else same permissions
04:49:35 <variable> pikhq, a) which is its weakness - I prefer copyfree licences
04:49:59 <variable> b) the GPL claims that it "is free" which makes no sense
04:50:46 <variable> zzo38, it is better to allow everyone to use the code - and encourage people to give back instead of force people to give everything which may scare people away
04:51:07 <zzo38> However, it is OK if someone wants to make private modifications for their own use in their company to make cards with it. The GPL does not prevent that.
04:51:34 <variable> zzo38, as soon as they distribute it they must provide all the source code
04:51:41 <variable> which means they likely won't use it
04:51:50 <variable> and thus not help you if they fix anything
04:52:03 <pikhq> variable: This is a fallacious argument.
04:52:18 <pikhq> variable: *Plenty* of companies make use of GPL software and make contributions to it.
04:52:30 <variable> pikhq, yes - but plenty more avoid it like the plague
04:52:44 <pikhq> Yes, because of a lack of understanding of how it works.
04:53:00 <variable> pikhq, or because it would ruin their business model
04:53:11 <variable> if they were BSD licensed there is nothing stopping anyone from contributing in the same way as the GPL
04:53:12 <pikhq> There's a common thought that by using GPL licensed software, you need to release *all source code ever*.
04:53:15 <pikhq> Which is patently false.
04:53:30 <variable> pikhq, you must release all source code that is a derivative work
04:53:44 <pikhq> And with the BSD license you don't need to.
04:53:53 <pikhq> And with most software licenses *you can't make derivative works*.
04:53:57 <variable> pikhq, so imagine if apple were forced to release *all* of their source code
04:54:21 <variable> with the BSD licence you are allowed to
04:54:24 <pikhq> Actually, Apple releases the code for everything from BSD...
04:54:43 <zzo38> If a company wants to use it to produce their own cards, they do not need to release the source code to the program. The cards are just output. (Actually, I don't know if "plain.cards" changes this? If so, I should add an exception in the "plain.cards" file to ensure you are allowed to produce proprietary cards with this program)
04:54:44 <pikhq> And uses quite a bit of GPL software.
04:54:50 <pikhq> (GCC, WebKit, etc._)
04:54:53 <variable> but if it were GPL it would be required to release all of the OS code - not just the kernel parts
04:55:08 <pikhq> Just all the derivative works.
04:55:15 <pikhq> Which they do even when not obligated to.
04:55:24 <variable> pikhq, and since linking with inner interfaces could be considered a deriv. work
04:55:37 <pikhq> BTW, merely executing *on* an OS does not a derivative work make.
04:55:54 <pikhq> If FreeBSD were GPL, it would change hardly *any* of Apple's behavior at all.
04:56:03 <pikhq> Because they comply already.
04:56:32 <variable> pikhq, they would be forced to release any and all code that is a deriv. of the FreeBSD work
04:56:40 <variable> and would include a large majority of the OS
04:56:45 <pikhq> variable: Funny, they have.
04:56:45 <variable> instead of just the darwin kernel
04:57:06 <zzo38> Does "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" need a exception similar to the font exception?
04:57:29 <pikhq> The only things in OS X without source code available are, in essence, things that support their UI.
04:58:26 <pikhq> Cocoa, Carbon, and the like.
04:58:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Do you know enough about the GPL to know whether or not this exception would be needed?
04:59:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Uh, I think it would need almost precisely the font exception.
04:59:28 <variable> pikhq, which in theory could be considered a deriv work
04:59:35 <pikhq> variable: It isn't.
04:59:44 <pikhq> variable: Speaking as someone who has actually read copyright law, it isn't.
05:00:03 <variable> zzo38, I think it would require the font exception -- or just use a license that doesn't restrict distribution
05:00:03 <pikhq> Not even remotely.
05:00:31 <variable> pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents....
05:00:48 <pikhq> And somehow you still don't seem to understand what a derivative work is.
05:01:05 <variable> now that the ad hominem is away
05:01:11 <variable> pikhq, you seem to not understand
05:01:24 <variable> the GPL defines it in a specific way
05:01:45 <pikhq> Okay, true, the GPLv3 doesn't even use the term "derivative work", it uses something different...
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05:02:16 <variable> pikhq, the basic idea is that interfacing using "private" methods results in a derivative work nearly always
05:02:48 <pikhq> Of course, "implementation of POSIX" (which is essentially all that OS X gets from the BSDs) is not exactly "private".
05:02:49 <variable> pikhq, my point is lets say that what your saying is true
05:03:11 <variable> pikhq,and that apple completely complies with the gpl (pretending freebsd was gpl)
05:04:04 <variable> the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain)
05:04:21 <variable> and there is nothing stopping companies from contributing
05:04:58 <zzo38> pikhq: But "texnicard.w" should not need the font exception, because to that program, the file "plain.cards" is just data, and "texnicard_format.tex" is data to TeX, and these two files are linked. Am I correct?
05:05:06 <pikhq> Can you really call a modification that nobody else can access "contribution", or even "behavior that ought to be encouraged".
05:05:19 <variable> pikhq, wow - you completely misunderstand
05:05:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Hmm. Well. Is any of Texnicard actually going to be output in the resulting .dvi?
05:07:20 <zzo38> pikhq: No. (Also, the .dvi is not even the final result; the final result are picture files such as .png and so on.)
05:07:26 <variable> pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own and not use G. so now G still
05:07:53 <pikhq> variable: Has this even once happened?
05:08:00 <variable> zzo38, re comments on the actual project instead of the license: I'll look at it tomorrow.
05:08:21 <pikhq> Hrm. Actually, no, pretty sure it has. LLVM.
05:08:33 <variable> pikhq, yes all the time. most commercial organizations have "copyright training" where they teach you to avoid the gpl
05:08:40 <zzo38> variable: OK. You can look at it tomorrow. (Just remember it is currently incomplete. It does compile and run; but it is incomplete.)
05:08:45 <pikhq> "Bullshit training", you mean.
05:09:15 <variable> pikhq, I use the term the companies use.
05:09:28 <pikhq> I use a term that accurately describes it.
05:09:51 <pikhq> Of course, all this comes courtesy of a few simple things...
05:10:01 <variable> pikhq, tbh in the end it hardly matters - I just like to get the code out. I dislike spending much time on license debates
05:10:11 <pikhq> Namely: copyright law is far too complex, and it's completely and utterly pointless in the modern day.
05:10:21 <pikhq> Not to mention counterproductive.
05:10:51 <variable> pikhq, agreed with the specific reference to software copyright. not saying I disagree about other things - but I don't have the energy right now to discuss :-}
05:11:13 <pikhq> variable: In general, though, it's *certainly* far far too complex, you must agree.
05:11:26 <variable> "not saying I disagree about other things'
05:12:18 <variable> pikhq, copyright law is insanely complex - and imho outlived its usefulness for certain things
05:12:24 <variable> but I really need to get to sleep
05:12:58 <variable> good night - I enjoyed this conversation
05:17:59 <zzo38> There are a few files in TeXnicard which are public domain, such as "system_book_conv", which is not actually needed to run TeXnicard; what it does is to make book from "plain.cards" and "texnicard_format.tex" files.
05:20:16 <zzo38> Is the extra restriction on the use of the name of TeXnicard is valid?
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06:41:50 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAX0gJt-aZg fuckin LOL
06:46:23 <augur> j-invariant: i have java gtfo >|
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08:46:41 <Sgeo> Do you come across "alot' alot?
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09:27:32 <Gregor> j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot".
09:28:44 <augur> j-invariant: adults can spell "a lot" perfectly fine
09:29:02 <augur> the problem is that "a lot" is a thing you park your car in
09:29:50 <augur> "a lot" ~ "alot" as a quantificational element is a single word, not two, in modern english.
09:30:22 <j-invariant> so would writing "alot" be an improvement?
09:30:25 <augur> furthermore, orthography is purely conventional, and as gregor points out, the current convention in colloquial written english is that the space is entirely optional
09:30:46 <augur> in many ways, "a lot" is going the same way as "up on"
09:31:03 <augur> and so many other such words in english
09:31:14 <j-invariant> do you know any book or whatever that talks about this?
09:31:17 <augur> "through out", "none the less", "not with standing" etc etc
09:31:25 <Gregor> "Did this actually happen" // English has no regulatory body, it's happening because people are just doing it.
09:31:29 <augur> j-invariant: any good book on descriptive linguistics.
09:31:38 <augur> Gregor: even if english DId have a regulatory body, it wouldnt matter
09:31:49 <j-invariant> augur: are there any good ones for a beginner wyouwould recommend?
09:31:52 <augur> languages are the original grassroots technology
09:31:54 <Gregor> augur: But thank Jebus it doesn't ;)
09:32:10 <augur> j-invariant: for orthography, no, but for language in general, sure
09:32:31 <augur> j-invariant: for language in general, check out guy deutscher's the unfolding of language
09:33:27 <augur> "above" is the result of successive de-prepositionalizations from "on by up on" (only from back when they were said and spelled "an be uf an"
09:34:11 <augur> j-invariant: the moral of that book is that language is a constant tension between expressiveness and conciseness
09:34:55 <augur> concision drives us to eliminate parts of the language that don't have any function (in that they don't make the language any more usable)
09:35:30 <augur> expressivity drives us to invent new constructs when the language has no technique for conveying quite what we want to convey
09:35:53 <augur> so theres a tension between reduction and expansion of the language, and it happens all the time
09:36:28 <j-invariant> have any new constructs come up in recorded history?
09:36:56 <augur> every new thing you hate is a new construct that might be standard a hundred years from now
09:37:12 <augur> usually its new words, since words are for some reason incredibly easy to invent
09:37:17 <augur> and usually its certain kinds of words
09:37:30 <augur> tho it varies by language which words are so freely invented
09:37:46 <j-invariant> what baout a new "thing" like verb/noun/etc
09:37:50 <augur> grammatical constructs are harder to change
09:37:58 <augur> verbs and nouns are the easiest words to invent
09:38:10 <augur> adjectives and adverbs probably next
09:38:21 <augur> oh, you mean a new category?
09:38:42 <augur> theres debate over whether categories are real in any sense
09:38:56 <augur> but in general we only see a small number of categories
09:39:40 <augur> i mean, most contemporary theories place no real restriction on the number of categories, and we dont have any principled way to explain why we dont see the full range of possibilities
09:40:30 <augur> which is to say, there seem to be restrictions, but we dont know what they are beyond some very rough outlines in the theoretically possible category landscape
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10:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate
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10:16:41 <Vorpal> augur, are there any languages with more/different categories than English?
10:18:23 <augur> but there generally seems to be a fairly fixed inventory that all languages draw from
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10:20:37 <Vorpal> why does my printer only ever decide to take two pages at a time when doing double sided printing. And only in the second "pass" too!?
10:20:45 <Vorpal> it never ever do that otherwise
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10:43:35 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, why does the Minecraft window not capture the mouse?
10:44:15 <Sgeo_> Is there maybe a bug in the older version that I.. obtained?
10:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help.
10:45:18 <Sgeo_> ...trying it before I buy it, so to speak
10:45:31 <Sgeo_> I am happy to state that the issues I was having in Classic do NOT occur in Alpha
11:03:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux.
11:04:03 <Sgeo_> Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers
11:04:32 <Sgeo_> F11 helps the mouse not be captured, but I don't want to have to go to fullscreen
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12:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, why did you change your name to TheDoctor and then back again?
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12:24:32 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: name antics in another channel
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12:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo's dad is periodically rebooting his computer for lulz.
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12:51:43 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function.
12:55:59 <nooga> how is obsidian made?
13:13:00 <nooga> HAHA' I'VE GOT 5 OBSIDIANS
13:15:47 <nooga> there's lava on obsidian
13:17:57 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: what about f x = 2*x
13:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> As in, a polymorphic function with no typeclass constraints.
13:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You can demonstrate that id is the only one possible if you let a be the unit type, but it's extending that upwards that I'm having problems with.
13:19:09 <cheater99> of course you can have polymorphic fall-over
13:19:18 <cheater99> in which case your question is easily answered
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13:27:57 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: in that case, it is a (difficult) theorem that every well typed term has a normal form (i.e. you can evaluate everything and it wont loop)
13:28:34 <j-invariant> I think it's plausible to enumerate all (one) normal forms of type forall a. a -> a
13:28:57 <j-invariant> so like \a -> a counts but (\a -> a) (\a -> a) doesn't
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13:37:05 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: have you seen any proof that simple typed lambda calculus normalizes
13:40:24 <Vorpal> # [...]. From reading these comments, it is clear that
13:40:24 <Vorpal> # text following a '#' is ignored to the end of the line.
13:40:33 <Vorpal> from the top of a config file :D
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14:02:14 <Vorpal> elliott: for log reading: I tried that newer version of synergy thingy. Same old bugs: 1) clipboard buggy in various ways 2) altgr key sometimes get stuck when on guest screen.
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14:05:35 <Vorpal> elliott: there is possibly one bug that is gone, but it is so rare I can't be sure yet. (Caps lock getting suck in different states compared to keyboard led, and different states on the different computers)
14:05:57 <Vorpal> that happened like twice in 6 months
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14:06:43 <elliott> 20:15:47 <variable> erm - one character domain names that are not registered == roughly all of them
14:06:53 <elliott> variable: no, that you can actually register -- there are 100 or so
14:06:56 <elliott> most are reserved or registered
14:07:44 <j-invariant> elliott: know anything about LaRouche youth movement?
14:08:16 <elliott> j-invariant: LaRouch people are all complete nutcases, as far as i can tell. it is interesting but i have not looked in to it as much as i would like to
14:08:57 <elliott> j-invariant: nope :) but wikipedia does!
14:09:00 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche_and_the_LaRouche_movement
14:09:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe 1 or 2 letter ones can no longer be registered. Not sure if it was some tlds only, or all. The existing ones were grandfathered.
14:09:47 <elliott> Vorpal: you _definitely_ can register them. i looked into thix
14:10:18 <elliott> Vorpal: for instance I believe that nic.st will sell you a one-char if you give them insane amounts of money
14:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: hopefully I will be able to script looking up all the domains to see which ones are free and registerable, filter out those with unreasonable laws (*cough* .ly must follow sharia law *cough*), and then filter out those with insane prices
14:11:15 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, as I said in log. the new synergy thingy did not help at all
14:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning.
14:11:33 <elliott> http://www.nic.st/twoletter/name/w
14:12:18 <elliott> <?php $d = 2.2250738585072011e-308; ?>
14:12:38 <Vorpal> elliott, if only I knew how to reproduce these bugs. It is pointless to say "alt-gr sometimes get stuck" or "sometimes you get ghost pastes in gtk programs on the 'interactive' machine".
14:13:07 <elliott> j-invariant: aww, not anagolf's either
14:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> [[This achievement by an amateur chorus would have been virtually impossible if not for [...] performing the work in the scientifically correct musical tuning of C=256 Hz, rather than the prevalent, anti-musical and vocally destructive tuning of the Romantic School's A=440 or higher (see below).]]
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14:14:06 <j-invariant> elliott: I trsied that out earlier when I read hte article but I must have done it wrong
14:14:15 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know more about it than that, just that they want to go back to 432Hz A tuning. <-- err, as far as I know you generally try to tune to match what the music was written for. At least in professional orchestras.
14:14:40 <elliott> doesn't work on 5.3.3 here
14:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I think they just want *everything* tuned to 432Hz A.
14:14:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this might include non-equal temperament and so on
14:14:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that's just silly
14:15:14 <elliott> SO WEIRD I WOULDN'T HAVE CALLED THEM SILLY YOU'RE A VISIONARY
14:15:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you are doing it professionally you tune for whatever the music was written for
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14:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The Schiller Institute, which represents these ideas internationally, has become known for its initiative to lower the international standard musical pitch to middle-C=256 cycles per second (corresponding to approximately A=430 to 432), in order to preserve the human voice and to return the performance of Classical music to that of the composers' poetic intentions.]]
14:16:21 <elliott> variable: plz don't debate gpl/bsd here, it has been done 5 billion times before
14:16:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well if the music was written for that then it should be played like that. If it was written for something else then do as it's author intended!
14:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Because we all know that a 1% increase in frequency wreaks havoc on the vocal chords.
14:17:05 <j-invariant> http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/images2010/Obama_BP.gif
14:17:12 <elliott> variable: p.s. it's irrelevant because selling data is a broken business model only held in place by illogical regulations that should be abolished, which would conveniently make the GPL and BSD identical in making no restrictions whatsoever
14:17:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also, why do they centre around vocals? Don't they care at all about purely instrumental music!?
14:17:41 <j-invariant> 14:05 < JohnFlux> Roger Penrose, as a kid, was dropped down a grade at school
14:17:41 <j-invariant> 14:06 < j-invariant> and now he thinks godels incompleteness theorem means that
14:17:44 <j-invariant> the human brain is something more than a turing machine -
14:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> MORE RELEVANT STUFF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiller_Institute
14:18:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was that "brilliant idea"?
14:19:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err. What would that be
14:19:23 <elliott> 21:00:31 <variable> pikhq, speaking as someone who has read the licence, read copyright law, worked for a copyright attorney, and has two patents....
14:19:28 <elliott> variable: software patents by any chance?
14:19:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a generator of physicists in wheelchairs?
14:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Before I discovered that some bastards had copied it, gone back in time and written a paper on it.
14:19:59 <elliott> a generator that produced hawkings would be awesome
14:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The Schiller Institute employs a large set of arguments for this tuning, from historical accuracy to claims that this is how the universe is tuned, with references to Johannes Kepler's treatise on the harmony of the world, where he proposes the notion that the ordering of planetary orbits is based on harmonics and the relationships among the Platonic solids.[23]]]
14:20:17 <j-invariant> weird I was just about to paste that exact quote
14:20:23 <elliott> 21:04:04 <variable> the 2-BSD license still results in fewer restrictions than the GPL (and public domain even fewer - but its not legally possible to put something in the public domain)
14:20:33 <elliott> variable: it is in many countries. don't be so US-centric.
14:20:34 <j-invariant> ..and say that Kepler himself knew this theory was slightly off and throw it out
14:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, he clearly knew it was crap, since it requires circular orbits to work.
14:21:04 <Vorpal> meh, that doesn't sound as good asas "YOUR MOTHER".
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14:21:55 <oerjan> * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function.
14:22:23 <elliott> 21:07:26 <variable> pikhq, company X decided to make a project. they look for some base to start on. they find G (GPLed) and B (BSDed). They choose to go with B because of its more free licences. They make a product and sell it. they contribute 20% of that code back to B. Now B gets something and G gets nothing. lets pretend B didn't exist and X wanted to have a viable business model. so they decide to write it on their own a
14:22:23 <elliott> nd not use G. so now G still
14:22:23 <elliott> 21:07:26 <variable> gets nothing.
14:22:24 <Vorpal> parametricity, awesome word
14:22:25 <elliott> unfortunately, as there is no such thing as a monopoly on copying non-scarce data, X's hilariously bad business model nets them nothing and they go out of business before they even realise that the GPL has no legal standing. a sad story!
14:22:30 <elliott> Oh wait, that's just in reasonable world.
14:22:50 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can prove that the only function of type a -> a is the identity function.
14:22:55 <elliott> j-invariant: weren't you talking about that
14:22:57 <elliott> theorems just from the types
14:23:13 <j-invariant> elliott: and have you installed uAgda yet?
14:23:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well f can't inspect the value because it's polymorphic
14:23:27 <elliott> j-invariant: no, i had to reinstall ghc.
14:23:30 <oerjan> it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq
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14:23:40 <elliott> oerjan: haskell is not a useful language to prove things about :)
14:23:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: probably in uagda :}
14:23:59 <j-invariant> 14:23 < oerjan> it holds perfectly for system F, and breaks down partially for haskell because of nontermination and seq
14:24:03 <oerjan> elliott: well someone _did_ write a paper about how much parametricity still holds in haskell
14:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/revolution.html
14:24:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's a power of two, i like it
14:25:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: basically parametricity gives you for f : a -> a that f . g = g . f for any g whose type fits. then put g = const x for any x
14:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, but that's where the non-crazy arguments end.
14:25:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/2007/historic_videos.html
14:26:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "Order Verdi pitch tuning forks" I KNEW THEY WERE SELLING SOMETHING
14:26:11 <elliott> 01:27:32 <Gregor> j-invariant: For what reason do certain English-speaking adults insist on conforming to and uplifting a certain subset of the prescribed rules of correct English grammar, but still ignore others? Perhaps because English is a living language, and if an entire generation starts spelling "a lot" as "alot", then the correct spelling is "alot".
14:26:21 <elliott> Gregor: Um, excuse me, the alot is used when referring to the alot. http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
14:26:27 <elliott> Gregor: a lot is quantification.
14:27:33 <nooga> i thought i can make a tunnel for lava to flow
14:27:49 <Vorpal> nooga, you can but be careful of burns. It need to slow downwards though
14:27:50 <nooga> and take flowing lava from the lake to light my cave
14:27:52 <elliott> nooga: your addiction is inevitable, buy it so you can play on our server :p
14:28:19 <Vorpal> elliott, your argument made no sense wrt. "alot". He just claimed that language changes over time.
14:28:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, the skyway is actually secure on non-peaceful mode.
14:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: alot and a lot mean two different things
14:28:38 <elliott> Vorpal: the alot is an animal: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
14:28:47 <elliott> Vorpal: a lot means "a lot".
14:28:53 <Vorpal> elliott, ever heard of homonyms? :)
14:29:09 <elliott> neither whoosh nor stupid seemed to cover it there
14:29:29 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes it is an invented animal. But sure. Why not.
14:29:30 <elliott> oerjan: Innovation in Puns medal, Missing the Point division plz?
14:29:51 <elliott> 02:02:51 * Sgeo gets desparate
14:29:58 <elliott> not so desparate that you won't correct your spelling i see
14:30:17 <elliott> 02:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly, or it could be something else; if you're not on Windows, we can't help.
14:30:22 <elliott> Don't you mean if you _are_ on Windows.
14:30:31 <elliott> 03:03:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, if you actually buy it and you want to use mcmap, you'll need to switch to Linux.
14:30:31 <elliott> 03:04:03 <Sgeo_> Once I buy it, I intend to mostly play on online servers
14:30:35 <elliott> Sgeo: mcmap works only on online server.
14:30:52 <nooga> lava floows in my tunnel but the cave isn't so deep
14:30:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, it only works on SMP servers.
14:30:57 <elliott> and playing an SMP server locally would suck
14:31:01 <elliott> since you can just give yourself shit
14:31:18 <elliott> Sgeo: and mcmap is incredibly useful on our server since we often just give a coordinate pair to //goto. so be prepared to boot to ubuntu.
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14:31:28 <Vorpal> elliott, in any case you are the one being silly here. First for trying to appeal to authority (which isn't even one really!) and second for trying to use that as an argument where it didn't fit.
14:31:44 <elliott> oerjan: please, you need to invent the Nuclear Whoosh so I can use it on Vorpal
14:31:53 <elliott> oerjan: he is the Hiroshima to my desire to bomb japs
14:31:59 <elliott> (best analogy? no, GREATEST)
14:32:14 <Vorpal> elliott, was it supposed to be a joke? Aren't they supposed to be funny. I think I remember you claiming that.
14:32:38 <elliott> Vorpal: are you trying to start like a daily game where we each annoy the other into ignoring them for a period of time
14:32:55 <Vorpal> elliott, no. But that's an interesting idea.
14:33:08 <elliott> ah. it won't work because my first and last ignore will be permanent.
14:33:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: neutral :P
14:33:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure I'm playing. I'm far too nice to be good at it :P
14:34:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good, you realised that wasn't meant seriously :)
14:34:37 <Vorpal> also I hate this weather
14:34:40 <elliott> i'm made out of a unicorn that poops flowers and niceness.
14:34:45 <Vorpal> 1 dm snow this afternoon
14:35:01 <elliott> i'm actually inside snow now
14:35:05 <elliott> we don't have doors in my country
14:35:22 <elliott> 05:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, that's why I said a -> a.
14:35:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you should probably say forall a. a -> a
14:35:37 <elliott> only haskell lets that kind of implicit shit fly >:)
14:35:38 <nooga> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
14:35:51 <Vorpal> I was out in car today. Had to stop a few times because the windshield wipers froze. Fiat really isn't made for this kind of winters.
14:36:05 <nooga> i just burt myself in the lava that i invited to my cave
14:36:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, lucky you
14:36:13 <nooga> and all my possesions
14:36:33 <Vorpal> nooga, should have put glass in first
14:36:39 <Vorpal> nooga, and had a safety water pool
14:37:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, official snow depth is at 32 cm. Though it is a fair bit from here.
14:37:57 <Vorpal> but they only measure it in a few places
14:37:58 <elliott> nooga: also ignore Vorpal's advice, just stuff valuable stuff into chest before working with lava
14:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott, my advice was good. Having a water pool to put out the fire is a good idea
14:38:21 <Vorpal> and a bucket of water in a quick slot
14:38:26 <elliott> more trouble than it's worth
14:38:43 <elliott> besides after a point dying is preferable
14:38:52 <elliott> e.g. you're on fire. you have a diamond pickaxe
14:38:58 <elliott> do you spend the time throwing the pickaxe away from fire
14:39:03 <elliott> or trying to save yourself possibly failing and losing it?
14:39:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you make sure to always be above the lava level when working with it. And there being a way to get out if you fall.
14:39:48 <elliott> Vorpal: you haven't answered my q
14:39:49 <Vorpal> and water pools are still useful
14:40:01 <elliott> ugh, deewiant expressed is lagged beyond usability.
14:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I'm not sure. I would safe myself since I have diamond armour too.
14:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott, no time to throw it all the safety
14:40:29 * elliott falls down an unloaded chunk error, with cows, while moving forwards somehow, in a minecart
14:40:32 <elliott> Vorpal: you didn't get rid of the armour before working with lava?
14:41:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if I work with lava sure. But then I make sure to take security precautions such as being able to walk out the lava area if I fall in, so I don't get stuck unable to get out
14:41:44 <Vorpal> elliott, the other case when you could hit lava is mining, and then I wear armour of course
14:41:51 <Vorpal> in case of pits or whatever
14:42:39 <nooga> i think i will move myself
14:42:47 <Vorpal> elliott, so far I only fell into lava once in minecraft on single player. And that was in the beginning, I had stone tools only still back then
14:43:01 <elliott> nooga: there is lava everywhere at low levels btw.
14:43:14 <Vorpal> indeed. And sometimes at higher levels
14:43:20 <Vorpal> nooga, last I checked chests didn't burtn
14:43:33 <nooga> but i don't have much
14:43:36 <nooga> some gold, one diamond
14:43:51 <nooga> and i think i'm bored with this enormous cave
14:44:14 <j-invariant> is there a video of bees building a honeycomb?
14:44:19 <nooga> i can take everything and find another place
14:44:21 <Vorpal> nooga, mhm. If you find a large floating island you could build a cottage on top (they are rarely large enough even for that, let alone anything larger)
14:44:40 <Vorpal> elliott, btw about language change. Do you say "a newt" or "an ewt"?
14:45:03 <Vorpal> elliott, at least you are somewhat consistent then! :D
14:45:12 <elliott> nooga: you can ditch redstone generally
14:45:17 <elliott> nooga: it's slow to mine and basically worthless
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14:45:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well a few are useful to have around, for the occasional circuit
14:45:50 <Vorpal> personally I don't mine it actively, but if I need to mine it because it is in my way then I put it in a chest
14:46:00 <elliott> nooga: only mine it if you need it :P
14:46:03 <Vorpal> nooga, yeah. If you have it, don't throw it away
14:46:12 <Vorpal> but don't mine it actively unless you need it
14:46:20 <elliott> i just mean when mining you can ignore it most of the time
14:46:42 <Vorpal> elliott, quite, except when it is in your path and you are digging a supposedly straight tunnel.
14:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, do you use a minecart system to get around your single player world btw?
14:47:42 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't have an active single player world
14:47:49 <elliott> especially since the files are on the other box
14:48:14 <Vorpal> elliott, rsync them. that is what I do between my thinkpad and my desktop
14:48:45 <nooga> hm i should build a boat
14:49:11 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i don't plan to use the old laptop all that much now
14:49:49 <Vorpal> nooga, build when needed. They break so easily it is pretty pointless to build one and expect it to be there next time. Some animal could walk into it the wrong way so it gets pushed into a stone wall or whatever. Happens a lot
14:50:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well having a backup on another system is always nice
14:50:53 <Vorpal> elliott, also laptop as server is probably not such good idea. laptop drives are made for lots of starts/stops, not for long continuous operation.
14:51:13 <elliott> meh, who cares, it's quiet and small :)
14:51:14 <variable> <elliott> variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation
14:51:41 <elliott> variable: if we're going to have a holy war it can at least be in less-explored territory
14:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what about a coq vs. agda flamewar?
14:52:46 <variable> How do I parse command line arguments in Haskell ?
14:52:57 <j-invariant> variable: there is a System.Arguments I think
14:53:25 <elliott> Vorpal: but they're not even the same thing :)
14:53:30 <elliott> variable: System.Environment
14:53:57 <Vorpal> elliott, are vi and eamcs really the same thing though?
14:53:59 <elliott> variable: emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden
14:54:03 <elliott> variable: vile vs. nedit would be fun
14:54:35 <elliott> Vorpal: teco wins obviously, speaking as someone who has edited with both
14:54:36 <j-invariant> emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden <--- yet nobody seems to have got anywhere..?
14:54:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you used teco?
14:55:28 <Vorpal> go meta: flamewar vs. not-having-a-flamewar
14:55:59 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, i've used teco, it's nice
14:56:20 <elliott> j-invariant: I like ais' statement -- the kind of people you get in here are more likely to use either both emacs and vi, or neither
14:56:43 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, I mean if you showed a dump of all the keys you put into emacs it'd look like line noise too but it's actually fun to use
14:56:49 <elliott> variable: ais523, one of our top actives
14:56:52 <elliott> not as much recently though
14:57:01 <elliott> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html this guy :-P
14:57:22 <elliott> note: site is shameless wolfram self-promotion crap
14:58:01 <Vorpal> actually today I used... emacs, kate, nano. Not vi though. While I have nothing against vi as such, I just can't get used to the split command/editing mode concept.
14:58:33 <Vorpal> as for vim, all I can say is that I looked at vimscript and concluded that while elisp is not great for a lisp, it is still better than vimscript.
14:58:45 <oerjan> <variable> <elliott> variable: software patents by any chance? --> no; I am NOT getting into the rest of the conversation <-- or else he'll have to use his patented death ray
14:59:09 <elliott> oerjan: *patented death ray control software
15:00:24 <j-invariant> this is interesting, Kepler has a different theory about snowflake formation than me
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15:05:10 <Vorpal> hm doesn't that apply to a lot of old science. The best fitting theory changes over time as new discoveries are made and so on.
15:05:26 <Vorpal> I mean, what is so interesting about this difference in particular?
15:06:59 <elliott> kepler is right about everything
15:08:44 <Vorpal> elliott, so what about non-European music?
15:09:16 <nooga> is it safe to jump to the water from a great height?
15:09:24 <Vorpal> nooga, how deep is the water
15:09:34 <elliott> nooga: 2 deep or more, yes
15:10:07 <Vorpal> nooga, 2 or deeper should be safe. But I found that sometimes 3 or deeper is needed. I presume due to lag in SMP but I haven't played much single player lately
15:10:24 <elliott> I love how NOBODY HAS RESPONDED TO MY UBUNTUFORUMS THREAD AT ALL.
15:10:35 <elliott> In fact it has been pushed off the front page.
15:10:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ubuntu. What do you expect.
15:10:49 <elliott> j-invariant: less useless than #ubuntu.
15:10:53 <elliott> Vorpal: less useless than #ubuntu.
15:10:57 <j-invariant> well sometiems good stuff comes up in google
15:11:06 <elliott> j-invariant: googled to hell and back for this already :/
15:11:12 <elliott> and i'm not about to go for linuxquestions or something that's even worse
15:11:22 <j-invariant> what is the problem? (..I don't know anything about this stuff :/)
15:11:49 <Phantom_Hoover> *Noöne* has any helpful advice for me on this graphics issue.
15:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah. But that is like saying falcon is better than lolcode. (note: I do not know the sorting order of badness here, just that both are very bad)
15:12:09 <elliott> j-invariant: how do i make a macbook air boot a normal usb drive formatted like the ubuntu download instructions tell me to with ubuntu on it; googling suggests that macs dont like to do it but this appears to be false; the fedora guys seem to think you need a gpt partition table and an hfs partition; but apparently there are success stories with using those instructions to boot ubuntu off a usb stick on a mac
15:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, LOLCODE is quite a nice language if you ignore everything before the AST.
15:12:41 <elliott> *quite a horrible language
15:12:43 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe it differs between different macs?
15:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, firmware versions or whatever
15:12:50 <elliott> It uses the implicit result of the last statement to work out conditionals.
15:12:54 <j-invariant> elliott: I was able to boot mac os x off a USB but not ubuntu
15:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott, is bootcamp installed? I presume it is?
15:13:23 <elliott> Vorpal: as i have told you countless times before, "boot camp" is a marketing name that means nothing.
15:13:26 <j-invariant> elliott: so you might have to burn some CDs to do it - and it takes a lot of testing to find out which CD works etc ..
15:13:34 <elliott> Vorpal: it is an EFI update which adds bios emulation, and an OS X tool to download windows drivers and partition the disk.
15:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, told me once afaik. And I meant the EFI upgrade in question
15:13:53 <elliott> every mac since it came out comes with the EFI update and the tool, however i have not used the tool as it will only create two partitions
15:13:57 <elliott> well resize one and create one
15:14:08 <elliott> j-invariant: CDs would make it trivial, but I don't have an optical drive
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15:14:20 <elliott> j-invariant: and Airs can only boot with the Steve Jobs Approved(TM) SuperDrive. which costs £60.
15:14:31 <elliott> so i kind of want to get usb working :-P
15:14:35 <elliott> I'm sure I can it'll just be a pain
15:14:40 <elliott> that's what you get when you buy Apple...
15:14:51 <j-invariant> I thought someone figured out how to get ubuntu on the macbook air
15:15:06 <elliott> they say "use a superdrive"
15:15:15 <elliott> or "follow the instructions for usb on the download page"
15:15:20 <elliott> (the latter i have tried and it didn't work)
15:15:30 <elliott> but theydont like doing it :)
15:15:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what happens instead of booting it?
15:16:04 <Vorpal> elliott, error? just booting normal?
15:16:30 <j-invariant> "So after examining all the ideas that came into my head I conclude thus: the cause of the six-sided shape of a snowflake is none other than that of the ordered shapes of plants and of numerical constants; and since in them nothing occurs without supreme reason--not, to be sure, such as discursive reasoning discovers, but such as existed from the first in the Creator’s design and is preserved from that origin to this day in the wonderful nat
15:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal: when i hold down option it just shows my drive and the partition i have with i think a grub floppy image on
15:17:11 <Vorpal> elliott, does it show the mac os x usb stick if you insert that instead?
15:17:30 <elliott> Vorpal: the one it came with? i'm sure it does
15:17:35 <elliott> haven't actually tested it, but yes, it will
15:17:42 <elliott> it can read USBs perfectly fine
15:17:42 <nooga> i've got a great settlement in a hanging cliff, on a remote island
15:17:44 <elliott> it just doesn't like this one
15:17:48 <elliott> I think i might need gpt/hfs ... but
15:17:53 <elliott> the os x usb instructions on ubuntu.com
15:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott, loadlin for OS X? I'm sure it is possible with a driver of some sort.
15:18:57 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a journaled fs, you have nothing to worry about ;)
15:19:04 <elliott> it would probably be possible to make the install CD boot off a /partition/ if i extract it and hook all the bootloaders up and kernel params and stuff
15:19:07 <elliott> and rely on BIOS emulation to go properly
15:19:12 <elliott> also, i'd have to do it on the install partition
15:19:22 <elliott> because the swap and shared ones are partitions 4 and 5 IIRC
15:19:26 <elliott> so i don't think you can boot from them
15:19:41 <elliott> although if i put grub on the main ubuntu partition
15:19:44 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you boot from any partition number with gpt?
15:19:47 <elliott> and used it to boot the 4th or 5th partition...
15:19:53 <elliott> Vorpal: not with bios emulation i don't think
15:19:56 <elliott> when i select one it just does the 3rd
15:20:02 <elliott> which is presumably expected to have a bootloader for the rest
15:20:07 <elliott> anyway i'd rather just get usb working
15:20:16 <elliott> i half-suspect it might just be that the mac doesn't like that usb stick in particular :D
15:20:24 <elliott> but it can read it in os x and stuff...
15:20:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds weird. Maybe it doesn't have the approved-by-jobs bit set?
15:20:56 <Vorpal> elliott, if it can only use one specific cd drive I mean
15:21:06 <Vorpal> elliott, then it is possible the same could apply to usb sticks
15:21:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt it since other people have reported success
15:21:30 <Vorpal> elliott, with the same generation of macbook air?
15:22:11 <elliott> i wonder what the rules for bumping are on ubuntuforums, and how much they'll yell at me if i violate them
15:25:20 <elliott> "Programming language design has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable software to blue-collar workaday programmers."
15:25:48 <Vorpal> that made very little sense.
15:25:52 <elliott> The foundations of mathematics has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable theories to blue-collar workaday mathematicians.
15:26:08 <elliott> (first quote from http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/01/minimalism.html, latter my own mockery)
15:27:42 <j-invariant> I just cannot understand that sort of thing
15:28:10 <elliott> j-invariant: either he considers the stdlib axiomatic, or he thinks that people run around with different incompatible stdlibs. well ok you do but nobody else does :)
15:28:37 <elliott> it's surprising how much of an antiacademic sentiment exists in programming
15:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, antiïntellectualism seems rife in "practical" programming...
15:28:46 <j-invariant> I use the same standard library as everyone else that uses a good one
15:28:48 <elliott> i mean, aren't we meant to be above that?
15:29:02 <elliott> we're (meant to be) competent thought worker engineers
15:29:09 <elliott> so why does everyone shit on theory?
15:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's because the non-idiots have better things to do.
15:30:34 <elliott> "Technically, SML'97 as defined in the Definition requires only a minimal initial basis, which, while including the types int, real, char, and string, need have no operations on those base types. Hence, the only observable output of an SML'97 program is termination or raising an exception."
15:30:40 <cheater99> elliott: what he means is that languages should come with frameworks
15:31:00 <elliott> cheater99: no, he means that languages should be perl.
15:31:10 <elliott> because all he does is advocate perl. all day. on reddit.
15:31:32 <cheater99> i installed a package that was dependent on some perl bs the other day
15:31:54 <cheater99> it said "indexing perl manpages, this could take a while"
15:32:09 <cheater99> after 10 hours it wasn't done. i straced it, and noticed it's opening every single file on my hard drive.
15:32:09 <elliott> j-invariant: ugh no i hate that site it's the only one worse than stack overflow
15:32:19 <elliott> cheater99: why did you leave it 10 hours.
15:32:38 <cheater99> when i saw it opening /bin/ksh i knew it was doing something bad
15:32:57 <cheater99> elliott: i couldn't be bothered touching some sort of perl disaster
15:33:04 <elliott> what do you have against ksh :|
15:33:07 <cheater99> elliott: and besides i have enough cores.
15:33:16 <cheater99> elliott: nothing, it's just not a perl manpage
15:33:22 <elliott> cheater99: but it COULD be :D
15:33:25 <elliott> a self-extracting perl manpage
15:33:31 <elliott> documenting the "ksh" function
15:33:55 <cheater99> if you filter the ksh binary for readable characters, it's both a perl module and a manual for it
15:34:18 <j-invariant> "For example, consider perhaps the ultimate counter example of minimalism in programming language design. PHP's multiple searching functions differ in searchtype( $needle, $haystack ) and search_type( $haystack, $needle ) and searchType( $neestack, $haydle ) and other permutations—and these are core language features."
15:34:18 <elliott> ))++++////33337777777>>>>BBBEEEHHHKKKNNNQQQQUUUUUUUUUU
15:34:33 <j-invariant> they are just procedures, you could add them to scheme
15:34:41 <elliott> cdefbghijkl+m,*n !"#$%&'()opqrstuGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`vwxyaz-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEF{|}~
15:36:18 <j-invariant> I don't even know what he's trying to say but it's wrong
15:37:07 <cheater99> if you can't understand it you've never used php
15:37:29 <cheater99> i hereby approve osmose as a good sms emulator
15:37:33 <Vorpal> <elliott> --strings /bin/ksh <-- well it is based on a heuristic. A very simple one. Just find printable chars. On each line print as long lengths of these are possible.
15:39:09 <elliott> Vorpal: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
15:39:19 <j-invariant> how do people hone this ability of just write absolute shit
15:40:13 <Vorpal> strings on random large program in /usr/bin have things like:
15:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Why doesn't strings at least look for null-termination?
15:40:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: POSIX actually says it can
15:40:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but most implementations don't
15:40:56 <elliott> to catch, uh, non-C software!
15:41:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a lot of strings are not null-terminated outside the C world
15:41:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (possibly because posix requires you to implement a flag that doesn't check for any kind of termination, so it's less work :))
15:41:29 <elliott> although gnu strings is, surprise surprise, SUPA ADVANCE:
15:41:30 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of UUUUUUU in lots of binaries. Maybe some sort of padding or something that is generated by some tool?
15:41:31 <elliott> The options to strings(1) are:
15:41:31 <elliott> -a This option causes strings to look for strings in all sections
15:41:31 <elliott> of the object file (including the (__TEXT,__text) section.
15:41:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it's meant to be -a.
15:42:06 * Phantom_Hoover still views GNU true as the best programming joke EVER.
15:42:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/strings.html
15:42:25 <elliott> Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings.
15:42:38 <elliott> incidentally gnu strings doesn't have -t.
15:42:47 <elliott> so technically ... OS X doesn't actually count as certified Unix
15:42:57 <elliott> except i guess they're probably quite relaxed about all the fiddly command line flags :
15:43:11 <elliott> or the machine was fitted with a special POSIX compliamt command set
15:43:29 <Vorpal> elliott, so probably not just nop padding then
15:43:30 <elliott> http://libposix.sourceforge.net/ why does this exist
15:43:58 <Vorpal> elliott, *nix in user space or what?
15:44:08 <elliott> Vorpal: libc that conforms strictly to posix 2008 with no extensions
15:44:16 <elliott> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/libposix/index.php?title=Compare
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15:45:05 <elliott> Yay, I got hand-approved for byuu's forum. SO LUCKY :p
15:45:08 <Vorpal> very stupid and ill defined criteria for most of those
15:46:07 <Vorpal> <elliott> Scan files in their entirety. If -a is not specified, it is implementation-defined what portion of each file is scanned for strings. <-- on linux I believe it skips some comment sections from ELF files or such
15:46:24 <Vorpal> "Do not scan only the initialized and loaded sections of object files; scan the whole files."
15:46:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is strange about that. It is a nop.
15:46:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in fact a nop larger than 1 byte
15:47:08 <Vorpal> this is nothing unexpected. Compilers add padding between functions and so on.
15:47:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: disassemble with intel syntax urgh
15:47:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think you can tell objdump to
15:47:45 <elliott> failing that you could convert
15:48:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
15:48:33 <Vorpal> elliott, both intel and amd docs recommend that you use use as large nops as possible rather than many small. Better with one 7 byte nop than 7 one byte ones. Better for instruction pipeline if ever executed or something such iirc (as would be if it aligns the start of a loop, but not if you align the start of a function)
15:48:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, at _main. One would presume.
15:49:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that's irrelevant.
15:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well _start is provided by crt0.o or some such file
15:49:40 -!- zzo38 has joined.
15:49:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. C programs are linked to crt whatever, which contains the _start symbol.
15:50:07 <elliott> well crt is always compiled in
15:50:13 <elliott> but it'll be dynamically linked to libc.
15:50:24 <Vorpal> no one claimed it would be dynamically linked to crt0.o ...
15:51:05 <fizzie> Anyhow, at least my /bin/true is stripped, so it doesn't have the executable's own symbols any more.
15:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, also, ELF(64) doesn't prepend _ to function names.
15:51:09 <Vorpal> how fun, my /bin/true seems completely stripped of all symbols
15:51:17 <Vorpal> presumably they are in some -dbg packet
15:51:54 <fizzie> Anyway, objdump -f reports the entry point address; start from there.
15:52:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, _start is still called _start
15:52:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just check with an unstripped file
15:53:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I never claimed it was
15:53:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that was elliott
15:55:01 <Vorpal> how tricky is un-inlineing?
15:55:38 <Vorpal> for something like lostking.b it could be an optimisation I believe.
15:57:43 <elliott> i think lostkng is goto-based, not procedures, no? maybe not
15:57:47 <cheater99> elliott: have you managed to compile bsnes?
15:58:05 <elliott> cheater99: yes on linux, no on os x
15:58:12 <elliott> and i'd rather just get linux working
15:58:16 <cheater99> i don't have 4.5 and when i try to compile wiht 4.4 it makes problems with syntax
15:58:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. I just noticed a lot of code snippets showing up again and again over the file
15:58:26 <cheater99> i don't want to install 4.5 either.
15:58:57 <elliott> cheater99: well, you have to.
15:58:59 <elliott> cheater99: gcc is very buggy.
15:59:14 <elliott> cheater99: besides, it needs a gcc with C++0x support
15:59:14 <Vorpal> elliott, why not clang?
15:59:18 <elliott> which 4.4 evidently doesn't have
15:59:35 <elliott> Vorpal: you have no idea how much emulator code gets badly compiled
15:59:45 <elliott> cheater99: the makefile specifically sets that gcc version when the OS is OS X, and for a reason
15:59:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, apart from "anti-Luddites" you mean?
16:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, people who view all new technology as wonderful and obviously superior to what went before.
16:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, is it doing something strange then?
16:00:21 <augur> tell me about that type system you mentioned earlier
16:00:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, unless you JIT or do evil mangling or similar it should work, no?
16:00:35 <Vorpal> elliott, in theory at least
16:00:40 <elliott> Vorpal: you have way too much faith in c compilers
16:00:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well duh, due to bugs it won't in practise
16:00:52 <elliott> cheater99: you need a compiler with C++0x lambda support. get a gcc 4.5 binary.
16:01:02 <elliott> cheater99: but no lambda support
16:01:08 <elliott> augur: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/category/code/ixi/ read from bottom to top
16:02:15 <Vorpal> elliott, C++? lambdas? wait a second... Do they give you a proper closure?
16:02:38 <elliott> cheater99: because he built his gui layer around them
16:02:52 <cheater99> haha @ php, php has recently received closures.
16:03:26 <fizzie> You can separately sort of tell which variables to capture.
16:03:36 <Vorpal> elliott, what language would you use to write a program that needs to do lots of ioctl()s and similar?
16:03:44 <cheater99> elliott: yeah, namespaces in php are largely laughable
16:04:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well, in the hypothetical situation that you would.
16:04:02 <elliott> Vorpal: or some ML dialect ... if I could get away with it ... maybe
16:04:22 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. So good FFI there?
16:04:29 <elliott> Vorpal: no, just bindings.
16:04:33 <elliott> i don;'t know of any ml ffis
16:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, go sleep then?
16:05:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule
16:05:24 <cheater99> both haskell and erlang have very good ffi
16:05:33 <elliott> if i slept now i would wake up at midnight
16:05:49 <cheater99> elliott: you'll get up at 4-5, which means you'll be allowed to oversleep for the next couple of weeks
16:13:33 <zzo38> I slept 24 hours once a week ago
16:15:03 <Vorpal> my "record" is about 16 hours I think
16:15:38 <elliott> zzo38: Had you not slept before?
16:16:23 <zzo38> elliott: I had slept before.
16:17:13 <cheater99> i think mine may be like 20 hours, but not sure
16:21:07 <zzo38> elliott: I think the previous day.
16:23:19 -!- lambdabot has joined.
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16:24:06 <nooga> i'm completely lost
16:24:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did you get lambdabot
16:24:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: permanent? :p
16:25:35 -!- shachaf has joined.
16:25:43 -!- Silvah has joined.
16:25:49 <elliott> oh dear god Phantom_Hoover what did you do
16:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, THE PORTAL IN THE CHANNELS WAS NOT MEANT TO BE
16:26:14 <elliott> our topic is not very presentable for this occasion
16:26:34 -!- elliott has set topic: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
16:26:44 <elliott> act professional, everyone
16:27:32 <shachaf> Relax, people. I deal with esoteric languages all the time.
16:27:34 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:27:46 <shachaf> Today I'll probably be doing something with C++, for instance.
16:27:51 -!- Cale has joined.
16:28:14 <Cale> I just wanted to make a change to the code
16:28:25 <Cale> It's coming back up :)
16:28:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well of course, to be per channel it would be /part
16:28:38 <elliott> Cale: we apologise if it gets into one of our famous botloops.
16:28:45 <elliott> although i think lambdabot puts spaces in front of enough outputs to avoid that.
16:28:45 <shachaf> Cale: What, lambdabot doesn't support hot reloading of the startup code? :-)
16:28:54 <Vorpal> elliott, thankfully the last one was ages ago iirc?
16:28:57 <shachaf> elliott: Was that bug fixed?
16:29:19 <shachaf> ?where+ bug ?where haskell
16:29:27 <shachaf> Wait, she's not even in here.
16:29:40 <elliott> shachaf: I doubt she responds to herself.
16:29:48 <elliott> shachaf: But, er, if that works then yes, there is slight cause for concern.
16:29:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe the bots are configured to ignore each other. Also which one is @ ?
16:29:54 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, you need two lambdabots for that to work.
16:30:07 <elliott> shachaf: Say hello to EgoBot, HackEgo, and fungot.
16:30:07 <fungot> elliott: as for unix. ( at the problem: if a ranlib index is there really such a subdomain as far as i have
16:30:10 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
16:30:15 <elliott> fungot ignores all the bots though.
16:30:15 <fungot> elliott: i wonder if that isn't terrible, just to show a friend of mine heard shouted at his theatre, " it's _not_ a waste of my message was just too damn busy putting in multiple ways by the
16:30:18 <elliott> But HackEgo talks to everyone I think.
16:30:28 <Cale> shachaf: It was a different change I wanted to make (the flags for running mueval)
16:30:36 <elliott> (P.S. When is lambdabot going to be rewritten in Befunge?)
16:30:46 <elliott> (It's obviously the most elegant and concise language for writing IRC bots: http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)
16:30:46 <fungot> elliott: upon setting establishing a dial up connection, large memory and a few
16:30:52 <elliott> Vorpal: down again probably
16:30:59 <Cale> heh, wow, the joins take a long time
16:31:08 <elliott> Cale: I'm sure they'd go faster ... with Befunge!
16:31:15 <Cale> lambdabot's join list is getting kind of insane :P
16:31:25 <elliott> Psht, I remember when we were one of, like... 10 channels!
16:31:28 -!- lambdabot has joined.
16:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, your bots are not looking making a good impression.
16:31:34 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:31:38 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:31:46 <shachaf> Ah, lambadbot belongs here after all.
16:31:46 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",
16:31:47 <lambdabot> ":@echo !echo `echo echo"]} rest:"!echo `echo echo"
16:32:07 <shachaf> Vorpal: Well, @bf and @unlambda.
16:32:14 <shachaf> Maybe that's not esoteric enough for this channel, though.
16:32:26 <elliott> shachaf: EgoBot already does those! :-P
16:32:28 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse
16:32:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and fungot too?
16:32:40 <fungot> Vorpal: we're still picking up the core file, i get a zillion copies of the directory, it is possible there's a new conceptual grouping of processes).
16:32:54 <elliott> shachaf: So is the Brainfuck 8-bit, 16-bit, bignum? Left-infinite or right-infinite tape? What EOF convention? (Any input?)
16:33:06 <elliott> shachaf: Do c and d interact properly in the Unlambda?
16:33:06 <lambdabot> darcs get http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot
16:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I always mix up {under,un}{load,lambda} for unknown reason
16:33:23 <shachaf> Clearly lambdabot should support Lazy K instead of unlambda.
16:33:26 <Silvah> Cale, you broke lambdabot!
16:34:15 <elliott> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/Plugin/BF.hs Wait, whre's the actual interpreter?
16:34:32 <elliott> (Heh @ it being breadbox's though.)
16:35:32 <shachaf> elliott: In the main directory.
16:36:35 <elliott> it looks like it's... right-infinite? I think so
16:36:42 <shachaf> It should support http://samuelhughes.com/boof/
16:37:00 <elliott> shachaf: It should support every language on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list.
16:37:10 <elliott> shachaf: But especially http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php.
16:37:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean?
16:37:12 <zzo38> elliott: Some of them are uncomputable.
16:37:16 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, note that a fair deal of those languages are not computable.
16:37:20 <elliott> zzo38: And it should support them best of all!
16:37:35 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: The latter is an alias for the former, as far as I can tell.
16:37:46 <elliott> Not like time travel is computable.
16:37:53 <elliott> Everyone with the same name is the same person!
16:37:55 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: No, it's "the other" Sam Hughes.
16:38:07 <nooga> idiotic mob killed me in my new cavern
16:38:14 <nooga> and i've lost tools and coal
16:38:19 <elliott> nooga: At least pretend this isn't #minecraft while we have guests.
16:38:41 <elliott> NO WE TALK ABOUT ESOTERIC LANGUAGES _ALL DAY_
16:38:48 <zzo38> Some of them, although computable, are not enough information to write implementation.
16:39:12 <elliott> shachaf: Oh man, that's as funny as that one time someone called Perl line noise!</cranky>
16:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, we have a well-established boundary between "esoteric" and "boring".
16:39:17 <elliott> woah, yesterday's log is really big
16:39:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Actually we discuss like a lot of various things in this channel, although esoteric programming is its main topic.
16:39:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Boring languages are the ones we don't like.
16:39:33 <elliott> Esoteric languages are the ones too repulsive to dislike.
16:40:00 <elliott> Redivider is actually quite snazzy I've always thought.
16:40:34 <elliott> shachaf: Really though, our favourite esoteric language, so theoretical and academic to be almost useless, yet so beautiful in its purity that it's almost a shame that it's impossible to write real programs in it...
16:41:11 <shachaf> elliott: Why? I doubt most of #haskell would seriously disagree with you.
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16:41:27 <shachaf> Maybe dons and the other Galois folks.
16:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you think Haskell isn't theoretically pure *enough*.
16:41:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well...yes...that is to say...
16:41:45 <elliott> LOOK JUST BECAUSE I WANT DEPENDENT TYPES
16:41:59 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, as far as languages that *try* to be theoretically pure, Haskell probably ranks pretty badly.
16:42:21 <elliott> I just say that 'cuz Conal's surname is my name.
16:42:26 <elliott> Have to stick together and all.
16:42:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Haskell interpreter in Lazy K?
16:42:43 <shachaf> Is there any language that uses FRP in any meaningful way?
16:42:55 <Cale> Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use
16:43:06 <shachaf> elliott: Is "elliott" /= "elliottt"?
16:43:27 <elliott> shachaf: In fact I have talked to elliottt before I believe. Quite confusing.
16:43:33 <Cale> Mathematica 7 has a sorta FRP-like thing which actually works, but isn't very theoretically nice.
16:43:42 <elliott> Cale: Plus it's Mathematica.
16:43:57 <elliott> Darn, now you know my secret.
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16:46:16 <shachaf> This channel seems like such a time-waster.
16:46:25 * shachaf doesn't play Minecraft, though.
16:46:35 <shachaf> So presumably when you show your true colors it'll subside.
16:47:43 <elliott> shachaf: That is, until you start playing.
16:47:58 <elliott> Actually we seem to have had a slight break in Minecraft chat due to Christmas. It has been replaced with silence.
16:48:06 <elliott> But I think it's picking up again.
16:48:17 <elliott> I swear we talk about other things sometimes too though, I just have no idea what they are.
16:49:30 <j-invariant> 16:42 < Cale> Haskell is pretty much right on the boundary between research languages and languages that are practical to use
16:49:38 <j-invariant> that makes it sound like haskell is almost useless
16:50:05 <Cale> j-invariant: Well, it basically just became useful for industry work :)
16:50:27 -!- Silvah has left (?).
16:50:34 <Cale> j-invariant: In the last few years or so.
16:50:37 <elliott> Cale: yeah sure, with your wimpy typesystem
16:51:20 <zzo38> I don't play Minecraft either.
16:51:22 <j-invariant> I really am amazed how people can use haskell types to set up the program to be correct in various ways
16:51:39 <zzo38> I did make up a lot of my own games, though.
16:51:49 -!- distant_figure has joined.
16:51:51 <j-invariant> every time I try to do that I find that I don't need some feature that don't exist
16:52:10 -!- distant_figure has left (?).
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16:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear GOD, why is it so hard to find a list of reasons why <language> sucks.
16:53:05 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: not abtsract high level correctness but simple stuff
16:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, PHP, C++, Java: these are all considered suckish. Yet it is nigh-impossible to find reasons for this.
16:55:12 <j-invariant> I don't think I could be bothered to actually type out all the code for the thing |I have in mind tohugh :(
16:55:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:56:52 <Cale> Phantom_Hoover: The question of why those suck comes up all the time and has been answered on the web, mailing lists, and elsewhere countless times :)
16:57:20 <zzo38> j-invariant: What ideas do you have for making a game?
16:57:48 <Cale> Phantom_Hoover: The easiest reason that those three all suck is that they have no proper support for functions.
16:57:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: well not so much a game but just an program that lets you immerse yourself in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhombic_dodecahedral_honeycomb
16:58:25 <Cale> I mean, you could go into detail, but why nitpick when there's a gigantic glaring flaw :)
16:58:33 <zzo38> j-invariant: Have you tried any of my games? Feel free also to modify them.
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16:59:06 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, any MegaZeux games will work if you compile MegaZeux for Ubuntu.
16:59:20 <Cale> We've known how to implement first class functions efficiently for decades, and we've known about their importance to abstraction since before the dawn of electronic computing. There's no excuse. :)
16:59:51 <elliott> Cale: also they have mutability
16:59:59 <shachaf> 08:59 < Rodney> The Moon is New. New moon in NetHack for the next 3 days.
17:00:00 <elliott> and weak to no type system
17:00:06 <shachaf> lambdabot needs to get this functionality.
17:00:21 <zzo38> j-invariant: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
17:00:38 <elliott> shachaf: psht, soon you will ascend from nethack to playing dwarf fortress. then you'll descend from playing dwarf fortress to lego^Wminecraft.
17:00:41 <zzo38> And here is the source code of MegaZeux so that it can be compiled: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip
17:00:59 <j-invariant> zzo38: shouldn't I use http://sourceforge.net/projects/megazeux/files/megazeux/2.82b/megazeux_2.82b_amd64.deb/download ?
17:01:10 <shachaf> elliott: Dwarf Fortress? Minecraft? What about your liberty?
17:01:27 <elliott> shachaf: NetHack takes away the liberty referred to as "free time"
17:02:35 <zzo38> j-invariant: No. You can also get the latest version compiled from http://vault.digitalmzx.net/ but my version has some additional features and other things.
17:02:39 <shachaf> elliott: Dwarf Fortress doesn't provide the source code. Minecraft doesn't even provide the binary without payment.
17:02:55 <elliott> shachaf: And NetHack doesn't provide free time.
17:03:16 <zzo38> j-invariant: Maybe you can make a game?
17:03:20 <shachaf> elliott: Look, in this comparison you're not gaining anything by saying that one of them takes away your free time.
17:03:29 <shachaf> That's considered an invariant.
17:03:39 <elliott> shachaf: I'm not actually being serious
17:03:58 <zzo38> j-invariant: The music for the game? I typed in the music for the title screen and some others. I didn't compose the music myself though.
17:04:20 <shachaf> I had more or less stopped with NetHack until two people independently tried to get me to start again.
17:04:31 <zzo38> j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using that you don't know how to push F5 key?
17:04:39 <zzo38> You can also push "P", that also works.
17:04:57 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of orange smoke.
17:05:00 <zzo38> (In case the F5 key is broken)
17:07:11 <j-invariant> zzo38: I don't know if this is a bug I am stuck
17:07:45 <zzo38> j-invariant: Where did you get stuck? Describe.
17:08:24 <zzo38> j-invariant: That is a dark room. Push T to light a torch.
17:08:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:08:35 <zzo38> (Also push H for help)
17:11:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:11:12 <zzo38> j-invariant: Also, if you have a DOS emulator, you might want to try the CGA Collection games (there are many different ones, but they are all small games). Here is a wiki article about the Super ASCII MZX Town series: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
17:11:43 <zzo38> Which statements in the list in the "Criticize" section do you think are true and which do you think are untrue?
17:12:41 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK continue playing Super ASCII MZX Town. It is good game but it is difficult. If you get dead you can try again. Remember to save game.
17:13:08 <zzo38> (Push F9 to quicksave, F3 to save in a different filename (in case you want multiple save files), F10 to quickload, and F4 to select a file to restore a save game.)
17:13:11 <j-invariant> "DID YOU KNOW THAT 100% OF THE PEOPLE THAT ENTER THE TOWER OF DOOM DIE?" lol
17:15:36 <elliott> j-invariant: um by pressing them?
17:15:46 <zzo38> j-invariant: What kind of computer are you using?
17:16:06 <j-invariant> there are pictures on the Fkeys like mute, audio up, turn off internet... I don't know why
17:16:14 <elliott> j-invariant: mac by any chance?
17:16:20 <elliott> j-invariant: that sends the actual f key
17:16:29 <elliott> works with most laptops that do that shit
17:16:48 <zzo38> j-invariant: You might also have to change a BIOS setting. Some laptop computers allow changing this mode by BIOS setting.
17:19:17 <zzo38> j-invariant: Because that level (and some other levels) are timed. When you run out of time you lose 2 health points.
17:19:55 <j-invariant> even when I set display mode to health I don't see health
17:20:21 <zzo38> j-invariant: That is because you have 100 or more. If you have less than 100, the face representing the player displays the tens digit of the health.
17:22:06 <zzo38> (You can also push ENTER to display status)
17:27:44 <elliott> fizzie: Was that arbitrary-placement thing fixed by SSI?
17:28:14 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, F9 is quicksave, it saves in the same filename previously selected. F3 allows you to enter a new filename to save, in case you want multiple save files.
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17:29:25 <zzo38> j-invariant: No, sorry. (Next time you reboot the computer, check the BIOS setting for the setting of F-keys.)
17:30:28 <zzo38> Still, changing the BIOS setting might make it easier to press those keys.
17:33:49 <sspm> how to install mysql on ubuntu 10.10?
17:34:24 <zzo38> sspm: Probably something like: sudo apt-get install mysql
17:34:45 <sspm> how to start orca software?
17:35:01 <zzo38> sspm: Did you try typing in "orca"? Did you look through the menus?
17:36:01 <sspm> i tried to install it but it didn't work...!
17:37:25 <zzo38> sspm: Maybe you need a different package name. In Ubuntu, if you try to type in a name of a program that is not installed, it will tell you what the package name is.
17:38:10 <fizzie> elliott: Yes; it no longer accepts place-block messages if you aren't holding that particular block.
17:39:40 <sspm> once i installed orca,will it start automatically or some setting has to be done...
17:40:09 <zzo38> sspm: Do you know if there is a IRC channel for orca? Did you read the manual page for orca?
17:40:18 <zzo38> I don't know about that program.
17:40:39 <j-invariant> I got to the lava two screens past the forest
17:42:02 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK. Any questions about that screen? Do you mean the one where they sell the inappropriate keys?
17:42:15 <cheater99> sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda
17:45:15 <zzo38> j-invariant: You won't be able to continue at that level until you find the purple keycard (not because you need it for this level, but for an entirely different reason). (Hint: When a transporter is blocked you will move to the corresponding one on the other side. This might help you find the keycard?)
17:46:00 <sspm> is it the command to start orca?\
17:46:12 <zzo38> sspm: cheater99's command is wrong that surely won't help you install the program. Did you try "man orca"?
17:46:53 <zzo38> sspm: Also, is there a webpage or book or something for that program? You can also look there.
17:47:25 <cheater99> oh right, i was missing count=10240
17:47:31 <cheater99> sspm: sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240
17:47:39 <cheater99> in fact you can couple it with apt-get
17:48:27 <cheater99> sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw
17:50:22 <zzo38> sspm: Did you know cheater99 is cheating?
17:50:47 <zzo38> So don't do those commands!
17:51:16 <cheater99> zzo38: it will install orca on his ubuntu, not sure what you mean
17:51:40 <cheater99> it's not like it'll erase his hard disk.
17:53:19 <zzo38> cheater99: I doubt it will install anything. Maybe "sudo apt-get install orca" might work, though. Your long command will not.
17:53:42 <cheater99> zzo38: well, let him try it and see who's right
17:54:23 <zzo38> cheater99: I suggest he tries my way first; your way might mess up his computer.
17:54:38 <sspm> to whom should i trust?
17:54:39 <cheater99> apt-get can't mess up a computer, it uses debian packages!
17:55:02 <zzo38> cheater99: But dd can. Also, apt-get requires more parameters, I think.
17:55:32 <cheater99> zzo38: apt-get is smart enough on its own.
17:55:50 <zzo38> sspm: Just try "man apt-get" then if you want to read the manual page to make sure.
17:56:00 <sspm> ok now just tell me command for starting orca
17:56:11 <zzo38> sspm: Did you try typing "orca" or "man orca"?
17:56:17 <cheater99> sudo dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda count=10240; sudo apt-get orca; halt -pfw
17:56:36 <zzo38> cheater99: No that is wrong!
17:56:54 <cheater99> stop trying to make sspm install man on his computer!!!
17:57:36 <zzo38> cheater99: I am not trying to make sspm install man on his computer. man is probably already installed and it won't mess up.
17:58:06 <cheater99> <zzo38> sspm: Just try "man apt-get" << uh huh and then his computer doesn't boot
17:59:10 <zzo38> cheater99: It will boot if nothing was damaged (this includes both physical damage and damage due to programming).
17:59:43 <cheater99> zzo38: well then why are you telling him to use man?
18:00:03 <zzo38> cheater99: To read the manual page so that he can try to understand how it works.
18:00:23 <cheater99> yeah, read it after his computer melts down
18:00:32 <j-invariant> if you are worried about whether man is dangerous read man man first
18:01:24 <zzo38> cheater99: His computer won't melt unless he overheats it.
18:01:59 <cheater99> j-invariant: that would probably complately disintegrate his PCB
18:02:34 <zzo38> sspm: If you are worries about whether man is dangerous, go to the computer store near you, and ask the people who work there. Maybe they don't know; but it is better than nothing.
18:04:21 <j-invariant> zzo38: what do you think about the rhombic dodecahedron honeycomb
18:04:41 <zzo38> j-invariant: I think you might try making a game with it if you want to.
18:05:35 -!- sspm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:09:41 <zzo38> Did I type the license exception properly? http://sprunge.us/PMNW
18:11:51 <elliott> cheater99: dude i think you just wiped sspm's disk
18:11:57 <elliott> except he didn't use sudo probably
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18:23:33 <j-invariant> "yooo #VIDEOPOSTERID#, take a look at "stream episodes (DOT) net" to be able to enjoy complete tv shows and movies considering that youtube won't permit these videos." .. sigh
18:23:51 <j-invariant> might as well just scream " I AM A SPAMMER"
18:24:44 <j-invariant> lugh you have supposed to have a youtube account in order to flag spam
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18:32:41 <Slereah> Something about quantum theory and spirits or something, no?
18:32:42 <j-invariant> "The only analogy to the Emperor's New Clothes in operation about this subject is that no one has seriously condemned Penrose's mystifying jaunt into neuroscience as the ridiculous crap that it is"
18:32:55 <j-invariant> "The notion that the brain violates Godel's Theorem, and therefore cannot be represented by a computable function, and therefore it must be QUANTUM is fractally retarded. Not one aspect of the story makes any sense. I've always been mystified by the idea."
18:33:10 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/evyew/roger_penrose_was_dropped_down_a_class_for_being/c1beffe
18:33:27 <Slereah> Can't be too harsh on the guy, though
18:33:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:33:38 <Slereah> Many big names in science tend to do that once in a while
18:33:50 <Slereah> Venture outside their field of expertise and start going crazy
18:34:28 <j-invariant> Are Penrose tiles useful or just beautiful?
18:34:28 <j-invariant> My interest in the tiles has to do with the idea of a universe controlled by very simple forces, even though we see complications all over the place. The tilings follow conventional rules to make complicated patterns. It was an attempt to see how the complicated could be satisfied by very simple rules that reflect what we see in the world.
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18:34:32 <zzo38> I think it is partially quantum. (Whether it violates Godel's Theorem I do not know, though.) Also, it is possible to emulate quantum computer on a classical computer but it uses up a lot more time and space.
18:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, well, of course it's partially quantum. So is everything.
18:35:47 <j-invariant> zzo38: I thought they sort of ruled out the possibility of any quantum mechanical effect being crucial to the functioning of the brain - but I watched some quantum biology talks where they refute the heat&size arguments in photosynthesis - so it's tricky
18:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> The question is whether or not it's quantum enough to make it noncomputable.
18:35:54 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes, but not quite what I was trying to mean.
18:36:03 <Slereah> zzo38 : Everything is entirely quantum
18:36:08 <Slereah> That is what shit is made of!
18:36:25 <j-invariant> "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation
18:36:37 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: But I think quantum computation is *not* uncomputable? Isn't it???
18:37:41 <j-invariant> yeah quantum mechanical computation is turing equivalent
18:38:23 <j-invariant> Any super-turing computer in nature would be a massive discovery, something on the same scale of importance as discovering evolution or gravity
18:39:05 <zzo38> The essential quantum ingredient is one from which emerges (among other things) quantum free will (which is different from classical free will). And then there are some other things too. Including quantum consciousness, quantum evolution, quantum immortality, and Heisenberg.
18:39:41 <j-invariant> when you say "free will", that's a technical term isn't it?
18:39:52 <coppro> j-invariant: how do you define "turing equivalent"?
18:39:52 <elliott> zzo38: There is no such thing as quantum free will.
18:39:53 <zzo38> Of course, these are emergent phenomena, which have partially to do with required quantum phenomena.
18:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> I remain convinced that the very concept of free will is stupid.
18:40:02 <elliott> zzo38: Congrats, you're spewing quantumbabble.
18:40:12 <coppro> j-invariant: seriously
18:40:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: With MAGIC
18:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, you were expecting well-reasoned, sane thought from zzo38?
18:40:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I don't expect quantum crackpottery.
18:40:40 <j-invariant> coppro: if you can simulate a turing machine with it, and a turing machine can simulate it
18:41:07 <zzo38> elliott: I think there is a such thing as quantum free will. There is also such thing as classical free will. But I do not believe in classical free will. I do believe in quantum free will.
18:41:09 <j-invariant> coppro: with QM you need to put the condition that the result is correct with probability 1-epsilon
18:41:20 <elliott> zzo38: What is your evidence?
18:41:55 <elliott> zzo38: To start with, I would like a definition of quantum free will.
18:42:14 <zzo38> elliott: A mathematical definition, do you mean?
18:42:23 <elliott> zzo38: Any definition, so long as it is precise.
18:42:33 <elliott> j-invariant: I doubt he means it in that sense.
18:42:36 <j-invariant> nothing to do with that spiritual nonsense
18:42:54 <coppro> j-invariant: yes, but they are not equivalent if you're including a probability
18:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[Penrose notes that the present home of computing lies more in the tangible world of classical mechanics than in the imponderable realm of quantum mechanics]] — WP
18:43:36 <j-invariant> coppro: really? can you elaborate because I thought that was a pretty sound definition
18:44:04 <j-invariant> 18:35 < j-invariant> "quantum" in this case means having an essential non-classical operation
18:44:27 <j-invariant> e.g. exploiting entanglement, interference etc.
18:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> j-invariant, don't microchips kind of rely on energy levels or somesuch?
18:45:18 <elliott> hmm, are there super-turing computers that do not solve the halting problem?
18:45:41 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover_: I don't really know aboult microchips but I think you can understand them classically
18:46:03 <zzo38> elliott: I am figuring it out now.
18:46:30 <elliott> j-invariant: actually they've had to account for quantum tunneling in recent designs
18:46:37 <elliott> because the parts have got so damn small
18:46:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: bCuZ 0f m4jik
18:46:55 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover_: the whole thing is bullshit
18:46:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I doubt it violates Godel. It doesn't have to.
18:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, just get on with defining quantum free will so we can tear it apart.
18:47:38 <j-invariant> http://www.1729.com/consciousness/math-journal.html
18:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> j-invariant, so wait, he just says "the brain violates Gödel" and doesn't justify?
18:48:04 <elliott> j-invariant: that's a joke yes
18:48:25 <elliott> it links to http://www.1729.com/consciousness/godel.html
18:49:05 <j-invariant> coppro: I probaly need to brush up on basics of quantum computing
18:49:42 <elliott> http://amazingformula.com/ this is the greatest thing ever
18:50:29 <coppro> j-invariant: a quantum TM /can/ be simulated by a probabilistic TM, but not fully accurately by a non-deterministic TM
18:51:09 <j-invariant> so you are saying the turing machine is stronger than the QTM?
18:51:42 <coppro> no, that QTMs are quivalent to NTMs, which can do more than TMs (/but/ a TM can caclulate anything an NTM can, just it might be slower)
18:52:08 <j-invariant> your notion of equivalence takes complexity into account/
18:52:08 <coppro> for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM
18:52:25 <elliott> 18:51 coppro: for instance, the program "halt with 50% probability" cannot be implemented in a TM
18:52:29 <coppro> if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs
18:52:36 <elliott> consider any program written in PHP
18:54:10 <j-invariant> can you write a random number generator with a quantum TM?
18:54:45 <coppro> Simply construct the state 1/sqrt(2)|0> + 1/sqrt(2)|1> and measure it
18:54:52 <coppro> you have a 50-50 chance of getting either 1 or 0
18:55:34 <coppro> thus a QTM is stronger than a TM
18:56:04 <zzo38> Also, true turing machines are not possible in anything that can actually be physically constructed, anyways.
18:56:23 <elliott> zzo38: Have you defined quantum free will yet?
18:56:37 <coppro> entanglement is more fun though
18:56:47 <coppro> 1/sqrt(2)|00> + 1/sqrt(2)|11> ... what?
18:56:58 * coppro loves having a course in 25-year old math at his school
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18:59:54 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, you can join oerjan in his sleep schedule
18:59:59 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaa
19:01:21 <oerjan> i have an appointment tomorrow and by my calculations it seems impossible to get more than at most 5 hours sleep in between
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19:02:52 <zzo38> Quantum free will is an emergent phenomena. You have to treat different ontologies as being different faces of the same underlying thing. Also, free will is not as free as perfectly; the laws of physics are still followed, including all probabilities are still correct and so on. Neurons still work and such.
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19:03:11 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover_: it was not sarcasm
19:03:21 <coppro> having a 10-year-old course on 25-year-old math is /awesome/
19:03:27 <zzo38> Entanglement is also relevant.
19:03:30 <elliott> zzo38: OK, but you have not defined what quantum free will is.
19:03:39 <elliott> zzo38: You have just said that it is an emergent phenomenon, not told us what it actually is.
19:03:42 <elliott> zzo38: What is quantum free will?
19:03:59 <oerjan> <coppro> if you take complexity into account, QTMs are stronger than both NTMs and TMs
19:04:29 <oerjan> um, it is not known what relation there is between QTM and NTM
19:05:26 <zzo38> elliott: Entanglement with non-existent phenomena. You use the same equations as normal entanglement, because it *is* normal entanglement; but it an infinite metaphysical mathematical series with things from other possible and impossible universes.
19:05:29 <oerjan> BQP is not known to contain NP, nor vice versa. BQP is contained in PSPACE though iirc
19:05:29 <elliott> "the human mind (even within the realm of pure mathematics) infinitely surpasses the powers of any finite machine, or else there exist absolutely unsolvable Diophantine problems of the type specified [above]" —Goedel
19:05:55 <zzo38> You have to treat it that life and universe creates each other, rather than only one way permitted.
19:05:57 <elliott> zzo38: So, any entanglement with non-existent phenomena is "quantum free will"?
19:06:03 <coppro> zzo38: what the hell is metaphysical
19:06:08 <elliott> Is that the definition of quantum free will? "Entanglement with non-existent phenomena"?
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19:06:26 <oerjan> (see: subtitle of scott aaronson's blog)
19:07:23 <zzo38> See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly.
19:08:00 <elliott> zzo38: No, no, I think I'll just come to an even better realisation of the fact that what you said has no grounding in science or logic, makes no sense at all, and should not be considered by any sane or insane person.
19:08:03 <zzo38> This means the universe created itself by a causality loop and destroys itself by a causality loop.
19:08:14 <elliott> You seem to be talking about something else entirely now.
19:08:20 <elliott> I suppose that is proof of the interconnectedness of all things?
19:08:55 <zzo38> elliott: No, it is the meta-lemma.
19:09:12 <elliott> zzo38: are you trolling me
19:09:23 <zzo38> elliott: I am not intending to.
19:10:02 <zzo38> Well, it is not my intention. Sorry.
19:12:17 <zzo38> It is based on the hard problem of consciousness (actually a slight variation) creates the universe and vice versa. The problem is therefore unsolvable. But so are many other problems.
19:12:31 <elliott> j-invariant: godel is stupid too!
19:12:38 <elliott> j-invariant: btw can you help me understand this sentence "See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly."
19:13:19 <elliott> j-invariant: so have I and I recovered
19:13:23 <elliott> but i guess his mind might be more impressionable?
19:13:27 <zzo38> s/cosmology loop/causality loop/
19:13:38 <zzo38> Sorry, I made a typing mistake that is why you cannot understand it at first.
19:13:44 <elliott> zzo38: i still don't understand :)
19:13:56 <j-invariant> coincidentally, Godel proved that relativity admits a unuiverse with time loops through every point in spacetime
19:13:59 <elliott> what on earth has that page got to do with causality.
19:14:26 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe I cannot explain it very well.
19:14:36 <elliott> zzo38: are you sure _you_ understand what it means?
19:15:02 <zzo38> elliott: No, I don't understand it perfectly either. But I understand it better than you.
19:15:16 <j-invariant> coppro: iis it really correct to say the quantum turing machine computes more things than normal turing machine?
19:15:21 <elliott> zzo38: I very much doubt that; true understanding almost always admits even a very glossed-over explanation.
19:15:45 <elliott> Since you cannot explain it in any way at all that anyone else can understand, I find it incredibly unlikely that you understand it at all, or that it is even a well-defined concept.
19:16:32 <coppro> j-invariant: They have the same computational power
19:16:43 <zzo38> elliott: But I did explain it!
19:16:44 <coppro> j-invariant: but a QTM can give stochastic output
19:16:52 <coppro> (also a QTM is faster)
19:17:06 <elliott> zzo38: No! You just gave me a few sentences that didn't make any sense, and one extra one that made _no_ sense to do with reversing Wikipedia articles and writing an equation based on that or something.
19:17:37 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know how to write equation for entanglement?
19:18:22 <elliott> zzo38: How do I reverse the Wikipedia article into a causality loop exactly?
19:18:38 <zzo38> elliott: Not the article, but the idea discussed by the article.
19:18:59 <coppro> zzo38: I know the definition of two entangled qubits
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19:19:41 <elliott> zzo38: as far as I can tell that biocentrism thing is just a quack unfalsifiable theory by an irrelevant crackpot.
19:19:45 <zzo38> Write the entanglement equation, and then assume that one part is not part of the universe. And then assume that is also an entanglement with another object in a doubly-non-existing universe, and so on.
19:20:02 <coppro> no, that's not how entanglement works
19:20:03 <elliott> zzo38: you are still making zero sense.
19:20:07 <coppro> zzo38: are you a tensor product?
19:20:15 <j-invariant> zzo38: information can't flow through through an entanglement "channel"
19:20:28 * Phantom_Hoover_ ponders how elliott was the one who ended up in the looney bin.
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19:20:34 <elliott> i think my head is going to explode unless zzo38 starts making sense really soon
19:20:41 <j-invariant> zzo38: although the proof of this is a fair bit beyond my knowledge
19:20:48 <zzo38> elliott: I also thought biocentrism is unfalsifyable, but they say it isn't. I'm not sure I believe them. But it is not important because it is based on philosophy instead.
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19:21:04 <zzo38> j-invariant: Exactly. Information is not *supposed* to flow through an entanglement "channel".
19:21:09 <elliott> zzo38: unfalsifiable theories cannot hide behind "philosophy"
19:21:15 <elliott> zzo38: I say that the universe is duckcentric.
19:21:19 <elliott> zzo38: The universe only exists because of ducks.
19:21:30 <elliott> zzo38: ^ this makes just as much sense and is just as falsifiable as "biocentrism"
19:21:30 <j-invariant> I'm sort of lost wrt this quantum TM stuff
19:21:34 <elliott> zzo38: therefore you have to consider it too
19:21:37 <zzo38> But correlation does.
19:21:49 <zzo38> See? It is correlation.
19:21:50 <j-invariant> it's not clear what hte "output" of a QTM is
19:22:01 <j-invariant> if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function
19:22:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> How do quantum computers work from a many-worlds perspective?
19:22:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: the way they normally do?
19:22:35 <j-invariant> if you consider the probaiblity distribution then the output is a continous function (which is incomparable to the discrete output of a turing machine)
19:22:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: i prefer many worlds to copenhagen FWIW
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19:22:58 <zzo38> elliott: I understand what you are saying about biocentrism. In my opinion it is a philosophical position, not a scientific one. Some people disagree. In my opinion however, biocentrism is wrong, the better way is it creates each-other and itself by causality loop.
19:23:02 <j-invariant> also: weird... physically classical mechanics is continuous and quantum is discrete: but the computational models are switched!
19:23:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, so how does one view quantum computers from many worlds?
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19:23:08 <elliott> zzo38: why is life relevant
19:23:15 <elliott> zzo38: why not the universe and rocks create each other
19:23:20 <elliott> zzo38: why not the universe and mountains create each other
19:23:23 <elliott> why the universe and life?
19:23:26 <elliott> can you defend that at all?
19:23:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I don't understand the question.
19:23:38 <elliott> j-invariant: no, copenhagen is "magic physical wave-function collapse"
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19:23:44 <zzo38> elliott: Rocks too! Mountains too! But their kind of free will is lesser because it is lesser usable. It is more solid state.
19:23:59 <elliott> rocks created the universe because they have free will?
19:24:04 <elliott> but not really because they don't have free enough will?
19:24:06 <zzo38> But if the hard problem did not exist then neither would the universe.
19:24:18 <zzo38> Therefore, life is required too, for certain definitions of "life".
19:24:19 <elliott> and your theory is incomprehensible.
19:24:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> I am against many worlds because it makes my excuse for not doing homework fallacious.
19:24:42 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes (actually a slight variation of such).
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19:26:30 <zzo38> Or, maybe, it should be called the "hard mystery"?
19:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, with Copenhagen I can say "ah, but I used a quantum RNG to decide whether or not to do my homework, so you can't observe it without collapsing the waveform which makes it your fault if I haven't done it."
19:27:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Do you actually say that.
19:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, I tried it on my physics teacher, who was amused enough that I dodged a detention.
19:27:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: i was unaware that that was even possible
19:28:01 <zzo38> j-invariant: No. It is unexplainable.
19:28:24 <j-invariant> any two photon/antiphoton(which is just a photon again) pairs in different universes can interact
19:28:30 <oerjan> <j-invariant> if you measure everything at the end, you do not have a function <-- that's afaik what you do. and while some of the result may be random, not all needs to be. or may only be different with a bounded probability. so you can use it to compute.
19:28:34 <zzo38> It has nothing to do with how smart you are, though.
19:28:48 <j-invariant> then why is it that there is not so much random noise throughout the universe to ruin everything?
19:28:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: dodging detention by being a smartass :)
19:29:06 <j-invariant> oerjan: that's what I started with but coppro objected
19:29:07 <elliott> zzo38: nothing is unexplainable except the meaningless.
19:29:16 * elliott waits for oerjan to pounce on him for that.
19:29:45 <nooga> my car froze to the parking
19:30:49 <oerjan> elliott: i might pounce if i understood it ;D
19:32:02 <oerjan> j-invariant: note, by "everything", you should mean "all the final qubits". you certainly don't measure the quantum state function.
19:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> Conclusion: we need to find the number of Canada's men in white coats as soon as possible.
19:34:03 <zzo38> Let's say you have a binary state like |ab> with |00>=[1;0;0;0] and |11>=[0;0;0;1] then if you have [1;0;0;1] and then normalized then are dependent on each other. Except that for quantum free will you need an infinite state vector that describes things that do not exist, even inside of the non-existent universe to which is being referred. Whether or not this number is countably infinite is unknown, but it is infinite.
19:35:51 * Phantom_Hoover_ wonders if he should bother even to parse that, let alone interpret it.
19:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> "Interpret" really isn't the word to use in the context of extracting meaning from language.
19:36:35 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: How well do you understand Dirac notation?
19:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> After all, you're really compiling from words to brainese.
19:38:47 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Can you place the ignores in an initialization file?
19:38:56 <j-invariant> zzo38: I donot know what you mean by quantum free will
19:39:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: yes they do
19:39:12 <j-invariant> zzo38: but I think it's not the same free will as in Conways Free will theorem
19:39:37 <zzo38> j-invariant: But I explained it a bit! Try to do the math and see if that helps.
19:39:44 <elliott> zzo38: there is no math in whaty ou said.
19:40:02 <zzo38> elliott: There is math in what I said.
19:41:14 <zzo38> j-invariant: The math for quantum physics. I didn't write out all the equations but you can find them in various books or Wikipedia, and then work them with the changes I have specified to see what happens.
19:41:40 <j-invariant> zzo38: you would have to write up this whole idea in a .txt or something - but don't do that if you don't want to
19:42:11 <elliott> zzo38: unfortunately you have been unable to give a coherent explanation of the "theory" to even _near_ the detail required for anyone else to even begin to try to understand it.
19:42:18 <zzo38> j-invariant: Or, perhaps, a TeX document so that I can include mathematical formulas in it.
19:43:28 <zzo38> elliott: Actually you can understand it but you have to do it yourself. Not everything is explainable in words directly. Therefore you have to do it indirectly.
19:44:07 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I have tried LaTeX it doesn't work well. Also LaTeX is too much too many things. And even Plain TeX is slightly large, but I use Plain TeX it is OK.
19:45:47 <zzo38> j-invariant: You do? Which levels have you reached yet? (Note this is a full length game and difficult, with 90 screens. Other games I have created are short ones that are more like arcade games or level puzzle games.)
19:46:07 <j-invariant> zzo38: that's as far as I have got - I am not good at these games at all but it is fun
19:47:27 <zzo38> j-invariant: Right. You could try the CGA Collection games, in which you can try for win/lose/score and try various levels and stuff, because they are a different kind of games. (You need a DOS emulator to run them)
19:47:56 <zzo38> (Or else, boot into FreeDOS if you don't mind doing that)
19:48:20 <j-invariant> I don't what happens when I push the switch
19:48:40 <zzo38> j-invariant: What switch are you refering to?
19:48:45 <coppro> zzo38: please link to a precise description of your theory
19:49:03 <zzo38> coppro: I don't have one yet. Sorry.
19:49:14 * pikhq would like to stab everyone who writes emulators using a plugin architecture.
19:49:26 <j-invariant> both of them on the screen with the person who wants a flashy diamnd
19:50:24 <pikhq> coppro: It makes using the emulator a royal pain, and simply *having* a plugin architecture usually compromises emulation accuracy and compatibility.
19:50:33 <zzo38> j-invariant: They make the doors near the flashy diamond to be passable.
19:50:41 <zzo38> (You need all three switches)
19:50:55 <pikhq> (I say "usually" because it is of course *possible* to do that right, but nobody ever does.)
19:52:21 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, you have done it wrong. Hint: You *need* to find the purple keycard. (Hint: It is behind the tree.)
19:52:50 <pikhq> Seriously, have you *tried* Playstation emulation?
19:53:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: No, a tree on the same screen.
19:53:36 <zzo38> But if you have touched even one switch you have missed it and have to restore the saved game file.
19:54:49 <j-invariant> there doesn't seem to be anything to do with the purple keycard
19:55:28 <zzo38> j-invariant: The purple keycard is not used in this level, but it is important to go behind the tree where it is found.
19:58:19 <zzo38> j-invariant: Do you know how the transporters work? Or how the potions work?
20:00:25 <zzo38> OK. If a transporter is blocked (and the blocking object cannot be pushed out of the way), you are transported through to the corresponding one facing in the other direction at the other end (regardless of whether or not the other one is blocked in the pointing direction; but it must not be blocked in the opposite direction (where you end up from the other transport)). (Pushable objects can also be transported.)
20:00:35 * Phantom_Hoover_ hates it when people say "two is the only even prime" as if it's interesting.
20:01:42 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover_: it is more interesting than it seems
20:01:50 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I saw the same thing on a Jyte claim. At first I believed it but now I think "two is the only even prime" is in fact an interesting statement there are some important theorems which do not work without considering this fact fundamentally.
20:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> It follows trivially from the definitions of primality and evenness.
20:02:36 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes it does follow. That doesn't mean it is not important though!
20:02:46 <oerjan> three is the only threven prime
20:03:40 <pumpkin> Phantom_Hoover_: damn right
20:03:57 <elliott> pumpkin: oh god you're in here too?
20:04:09 <pumpkin> 7 is the only prime that ends in 7 in base 14
20:04:25 <oerjan> elliott: IN AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE WHERE PEOPLE CARE MORE ABOUT THREE THAN TWO
20:05:03 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Those statements are correct, and seemingly similar, but actually there is an important meaning for "2 is the only even prime" in some other mathematical stuff.
20:05:22 <elliott> oerjan: threven is the best type of number
20:05:28 <elliott> oerjan: can we talk about threven numbers daily
20:06:00 <oerjan> elliott: sure we _can_
20:06:15 <oerjan> i think it is entirely physically possible
20:06:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: damn base 41
20:07:34 <oerjan> seven is the most severe prime
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20:12:00 <zzo38> :Atimewarpto2020!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com :elliott!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com Look
20:12:31 <zzo38> Same as :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com
20:13:45 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: I do not know what you are refering to.
20:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, how fortunate! I have no idea what you're talking about.
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20:16:38 <oerjan> greetings, Phantom__Hoover obviously totally unrelated to Phantom_Hoover
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20:18:19 <j-invariant> zzo38: I think your game is too hard for me but I will play more tommorow
20:18:53 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes it is difficult and you might not understand well without some experience with MegaZeux.
20:20:58 <zzo38> Try the CGA Collection if you want to try some small games (not full length games), such as Star Stacker and so on.
20:23:10 <zzo38> I did make some games with Game Maker but I should rewrite them in C instead or something like that. Or possibly write a converter into a similar but free format. Such as: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/xnazzyball.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/DiskCatch2.png
20:24:00 <zzo38> Here is the CGA Collection files in case you are interested in the DOS files: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip
20:24:53 <j-invariant> zzo38: the first one looks especially good
20:25:06 <j-invariant> I don't know how you ahve the energy to write all these programs
20:25:20 <j-invariant> my problem with programming is I give up quite early on
20:25:23 <zzo38> j-invariant: You mean of the screenshots?
20:26:09 <zzo38> (The icons are public domain, I just made a game of it. Also, it is possible to have multiple pieces in one place, so it cannot be done with ASCII mode.)
20:26:21 <j-invariant> zzo38: if these are EXE files I don't think I can run them on ubuntu
20:26:25 <zzo38> j-invariant: Try running it in Wine if you want to, but I'm not sure it will work.
20:26:34 <j-invariant> nevermind I will try them on a DOS emulator
20:26:56 <zzo38> Try the CGA Collection games in a DOS emulator. (The screenshots are for Windows games)
20:27:18 <zzo38> If you make any new levels for any of the CGA Collection games, please post your levels!
20:29:35 * Ilari goes and tries those CGA collection games first in DOSBox and then in rerecording x86 emulator...
20:30:31 <zzo38> cheater99: Hay you! Stop cheating, please!
20:34:04 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes. It isn't really a very good game though, the others are better. But at least it can make you laugh. So, I did include it anyways.
20:35:17 <zzo38> j-invariant: Can you guess what you are supposed to do in the games which I posted screenshots, without playing these games?
20:35:54 <zzo38> j-invariant: You may look at CGACOLL.DOC (a plain text file) for more information about some of the games in the CGA Collection.
20:38:57 <zzo38> j-invariant: In the first screenshot, your piece is a spider you have to pick up one of each suit. And don't get killed by a rock!
20:39:30 <zzo38> In the second screenshot, your piece is the white ball. You can move the white ball to make rectangle with each corner on the same color, to make hole and catch the colored balls. If colored balls collide with white ball then you lose a life.
20:40:03 <zzo38> In the third screenshot, you have to move the cursor to catch the disks and avoid touching skulls. The pieces all move by themself in various direction and speeds.
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20:49:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what top speed?
20:51:34 <zzo38> j-invariant: Have you added any levels to the existing games in CGA Collection?
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20:53:19 <zzo38> j-invariant: Did you know, the MUTCHNAM game has ten billion built-in levels (yes, really, it does).
20:54:10 <nooga> i've just encountered zombie spawner
20:54:16 <zzo38> Have you tried any of the games other than FATHER, yet?
20:54:43 <j-invariant> most of htem I could not figure out how to play
20:55:06 <zzo38> j-invariant: Which ones? Any opinion? Read CGACOLL.DOC for some instructions about the game. You can also ask me specific questions.
20:59:44 <zzo38> Please note that STARWARS is a 2-players game. You need someone else on the same computer in order to play. (The others are all 1-players)
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21:29:22 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life.
21:30:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, that statement made me suspicious. What is it?
21:30:42 <Gregor> The greatest six seconds of YOUR life, if you watch it.
21:32:54 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: Greatest six seconds of my life.
21:33:45 <GreaseMonkey> perhaps you could invest in implanting a nifty feature that xchat has?
21:34:31 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I cannot write an AI that uses quantum free will, although I might be able to simulate it in a turing machine connected to a pure random number generator. However, turing machine is not even possible to be constructed in any real computer, only approximations can. (Also, I am not good enough at it to write such a program anyways)
21:35:29 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: AKA "law of least surprise".
21:36:13 <GreaseMonkey> speaking of AI... do you know of an accurate way to filter that one particular troll's text in the Homestuck MSPA?
21:36:34 <GreaseMonkey> if you know the story... i'm talking about the one which has 8s all through her text and stuff
21:41:08 <Phantom_Hoover> It can be harder to work out exactly which tab-completion is first with last-spoke, but you tend to get the one you want.
21:42:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Last-spoke is generally going to be what you want, and it will usually have *unsurprising* behavior.
21:43:08 <pikhq> Whereas alphabetical sorting is often *very* surprising.
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21:55:08 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life. <-- I don't get it. Why what?
21:55:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh wait is it "why did the chicken cross the road"...
21:56:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, reason I didn't get it chicken != rooster
21:57:20 <Vorpal> wait, it is in English isn't it?
21:57:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, false friend across languages
21:57:36 <Gregor> Female chickens are hens, male chickens are roosters, both are chickens.
21:57:49 <Gregor> Otherwise we'd have no species name :P
21:58:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, in Swedish kyckling (which sounds pretty close to chicken) means a chicken in the state when it has not yet grown up. When it is small and yellow and fluffy and so on
21:58:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, in Swedish we use the name "höna" (close to "hen") for the species
21:59:05 <Gregor> It's ALMOST as if our languages aren't very closely related.
21:59:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, more like they are but someone used a cross linked cable.
22:00:19 <fizzie> Here in Finland it's "kana" for the species in general or the female animals (so chicken/hen), and "kukko" for a rooster/cock.
22:00:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, and for young birds?
22:02:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, "tipu", but that could be some non-chick little bird too. (It's also one verb form of "tippua", to drop. Which I guess is a slightly colloquial variant of "pudota", also to drop.)
22:03:15 <fizzie> Cf. pääsiäistipu, http://www.nutriciababy.fi/puuhanurkka/fi_FI/paasiainen/_files/78306002090656095/default/tipu.jpg
22:03:16 <Deewiant> It's also a somewhat dated word for "chick" as in "girl".
22:03:40 <fizzie> That too, though I don't think I've ever called a person that.
22:04:10 <Deewiant> Yes, it's quite dated. I don't think I've ever even heard it said. :-P
22:04:34 <fizzie> Maybe in some olden-times Finnish movie.
22:05:02 <fizzie> Incidentally, is the easter chick thing an international thing? Mostly I hear about the rabbit everywhere.
22:05:47 <Vorpal> uh can't say I recall any easter chick
22:05:55 <fizzie> I guess the bunny just gets better press.
22:06:04 <fizzie> Page 1 of about 126,000 results (0.07 seconds).
22:06:05 <Vorpal> it does make more sense than bunny when you think about it though
22:06:15 <Deewiant> I don't hear much about easter chicks here in Finland either. :-P
22:06:19 <Gregor> Usually when I think of easter chicks, I think of godawfully bad pseudomarshmallows.
22:06:26 <fizzie> Over two million results for the bunny.
22:06:42 <Vorpal> it is an easter rabbit in Sweden
22:06:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, we used to have those in 'rairuoho'.
22:07:17 <fizzie> We have the egg-rabbit too, but the chick is also easter-related.
22:07:40 <Vorpal> wait, rabbit might be wrong word
22:07:44 * Vorpal blames google translate
22:08:08 <Gregor> Rabbit is the right word in every context except this :P
22:08:08 <Vorpal> hare vs. kanin in Swedish. I'm not sure what hare translates to
22:08:31 <Gregor> Wait, you have an Easter HARE?
22:08:48 <Gregor> We have an Easter "bunny" (which is a six-year-old's word for "rabbit")
22:08:50 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryegrass doesn't list our "traditional Easter decoration" use at all. :/
22:08:52 <Vorpal> ah yes the word is hare in english too
22:09:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes we have an Easter hare. Could beat your bunny to pulp I bet ;)
22:09:29 <Vorpal> (wait, that sounded so awfully wrong)
22:09:34 <fizzie> Ours is a bunny ("pääsiäispupu") too.
22:10:15 <zzo38> How many games are played with a scoring side and a non-scoring side (or more than one of one or of both)?
22:10:26 <Vorpal> also compare pronouncing påskhare and påskkanin. The latter just becomes silly. You need to make a pause in the middle kind of thing
22:10:43 <oerjan> påskeharen in norwegian too. although i had the impression it's really an american import...
22:10:52 <Gregor> zzo38: Nearly every game in the family of badminton, volleyball, tennis, or other "net" games are played like that.
22:10:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes I think it is
22:12:07 <fizzie> Fikipedia says in Switzerland they have an easter-egg-cuckoo, and in some parts of Germany a goose, a stork or a fox.
22:12:17 <Vorpal> we had witches at Easter traditionally
22:12:50 <fizzie> (Had the Finnish bunny article open.)
22:13:21 * Gregor once-again trolls the channel with http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game
22:13:22 <oerjan> Gregor: um i thought both sides could score in most of those games :/
22:13:37 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, but in any given volley there's a scoring side and a non-scoring side.
22:14:06 <zzo38> Do any cards games do?
22:15:00 <fizzie> In any card game where players take turns you could consider each turn having one scoring and the rest non-scoring sides.
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22:15:48 <oerjan> arisen from the grave!
22:16:24 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it can, but is there more explicit cases where you do that in many turns? (And anyways even in card game where players take turns, it is not necessary only the player taking turns who is scoring)
22:16:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, make f into whether or not the Bifro-equivalent Brainfuck program halts.
22:16:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Har-durp-har.
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22:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously the best possible function is monotonically decreasing.
22:19:01 <fizzie> I can't recall examples offhand, but there's such a huge variety of board games, I'm sure some of them have scoring mechanisms like that.
22:19:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what if you can't decide if it halts or not?
22:19:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it could mean waiting forever, no?
22:19:32 <zzo38> I know of one card game where only one side is scoring side for a long time before you switch.
22:19:52 <fizzie> Dominion's (a card game) single-player turns can sometimes take a while (they have three phases), but perhaps not quite "a long time".
22:20:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like a bad point
22:20:11 <zzo38> fizzie: Not what I meant.
22:20:19 <zzo38> But good point, though.
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22:21:08 <Ilari> According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-)
22:22:11 <fizzie> And in Arkham Horror either all players go insane or win the game, so there's not exactly a scoring side (or a particular winner) at all.
22:22:16 <pikhq> Ilari: Which we can expect to be how long?
22:25:36 <fizzie> Incidentally, I recently played one game which needed one person to handle "running" the game, and that was done so that each person took a turn being that one, and before starting his/her turn selected one of the other players; at the end of his/her turn (when it came time for the scoring for that round) he/she got the same amount of points as the player he/she selected got.
22:25:42 <Sgeo__> Also, how did I sleep from 7AM to 5PM
22:26:35 <oerjan> Sgeo__: a mere 10 hours!
22:27:16 <oerjan> darn reddit is not loading again
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22:29:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, so why have you got such interest in IPv4 exhaustion?
22:29:58 <oerjan> it's because ipv4 killed his parents
22:30:27 <zzo38> In the card game Armchair Cricket, the scoring side remains scoring side until they either declare or lose ten wickets, whichever comes first. The other side cannot score even when it is their turn to play a card. There are different variants as to what happens when the deck is exhausted.
22:33:58 <Ilari> For APNIC, at the same time, APNIC had 4463681625587712 IPv6 /64s in its pool...
22:35:28 <Ilari> Just generic "pass the popcorn". :-)
22:35:40 <Ilari> (not that I actually eat popcorn...) :-)
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22:37:46 <Vorpal> <Ilari> According to recent report (less than 48 hours old), APINIC has 44 509 184 addresses in its pool... About 11M addresses to go until it should allocate :-) <-- what is the current estimate on date for ipv4 running out?
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22:45:20 <zzo38> Can you tell me whether I wrote the exception similar to font exception correctly?
22:50:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, completely coincidentally, but since it involves your country... we'll be visiting Stockholm next Saturday.
22:50:12 -!- Hilbert has joined.
22:50:37 <elliott> fizzie: AVOID VORPAL AT ALL COSTS
22:50:45 <elliott> Hilbert: got a hotel room free?
22:51:12 <fizzie> (I'm assuming you want to be keeping track as to what sort of riffraff enters/exits your country.)
22:51:42 <elliott> 12:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> A phantom ho!
22:51:44 <fizzie> elliott: I wouldn't recognize a Vorpal if one bit me, anyway.
22:51:58 <elliott> fizzie: They're really stupid and hate TNT.
22:52:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, easy to recognise fizzies from what I heard though.
22:52:59 <fizzie> Yeah, I've heard all kinds of rumours too.
22:53:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, not that I'm anywhere near Stockholm though
22:54:24 <fizzie> I think our plan involved a visit at det där kungliga slottet of yours; having no royalty or royalty-related stuff of our own, us Finns have to "appropriate" from neighbours.
22:54:48 <elliott> 12:54:10 <nooga> i've just encountered zombie spawner
22:54:52 <elliott> nooga: destroy it if you wish, loot the chest
22:55:09 <oerjan> sure, reddit, try to appease me by changing to a funnier heavy load picture
22:55:27 <elliott> 13:29:22 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TTxgrLUb7c Watching this was the greatest six seconds of my life.
22:56:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, what was the old on and what is the new one?
22:56:15 <oerjan> Vorpal: reddit isn't loading. but the "sorry we're under heavy load" picture just changed to a new one.
22:56:45 <oerjan> made by newly reddit famous Sure_Ill_Draw_That, apparently
22:57:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, it loads for me
22:57:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, so I can't check
22:58:15 <elliott> i conclude that sure_ill_draw_that has a crushing fetish
22:58:23 <Sgeo> elliott, how do you prevent the mouse from leaving the MC window?
22:58:31 <oerjan> elliott: he's done it before?
22:58:35 <elliott> Sgeo: um it does that automatically
22:58:44 <Sgeo> elliott, not for me
22:58:51 <elliott> Sgeo: then you fail. try linux
22:59:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, did you just place a sign?
22:59:19 <Sgeo> Could it have something to do with the old version?
22:59:31 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I don't have a legal copy yet, so no, I'm not online
22:59:44 <Vorpal> what has legal copy to do with signs?
22:59:53 <Vorpal> what you mentioned to me happens sometimes when I just placed a sign, a click in the window solves it.
22:59:53 <Sgeo> Thought you were asking if some sign you saw on your server was mine
23:00:32 <elliott> psht like Sgeo will get into our server :D
23:00:37 <elliott> it is now closed to everyone who isn't a finn
23:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, are you still on it?
23:00:58 <Sgeo> What, do you think I'm going to bomb everything?
23:01:05 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, just no extra people can come on
23:01:21 <fizzie> Opening/closing the inventory helps in mouse-capturing for me sometimes when it loses it.
23:01:53 <Sgeo> Also, when I last saved, I had no coal, and ran out of fuel for my emergency lighting furnace
23:01:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: the old picture was the reddit alien carrying a stone block by the pyramids
23:02:06 <Sgeo> And I heard footsteps that weren
23:02:37 <elliott> Sgeo: furnaces don't light
23:02:44 <elliott> not enough to stop monsters i don't think
23:03:02 <Sgeo> Wait, so my idea for ecological housing is unsound?
23:03:37 <fizzie> Logs set on fire burn indefinitely if surrounded by the proper sort of blocks.
23:03:54 <fizzie> That gives a reasonable amount of light, I think.
23:04:07 <elliott> "Furnaces are very useful for providing light if you have wood but no coal to make torches with."
23:04:22 <Sgeo> proper sort of blocks?
23:05:02 <fizzie> Active furnace seems to emit one level less light than a torch.
23:05:41 <Sgeo> My cursor is not staying in the window at all
23:05:51 <fizzie> Sgeo: Surround a log by (say) cobblestone, set it on fire; a permanent fireplace out of renewable materials.
23:06:07 <Sgeo> fizzie, awesome
23:06:20 <Sgeo> Wait, where do you get the fire from?
23:06:45 <fizzie> Uh, well, flint and steel usually. But you only need that one.
23:06:50 <elliott> (Note: Lava is not renewable.)
23:07:04 <fizzie> You can go and put the lava back, though.
23:07:13 <fizzie> But the bucket needs iron.
23:07:23 <cheater99> http://www.exploringbinary.com/php-hangs-on-numeric-value-2-2250738585072011e-308/
23:07:32 <cheater99> and better yet.. after you read the whole thing, read comment 5.
23:08:01 <fizzie> Possibly you could just build your place around a natural lava lake/fall you don't touch.
23:08:03 <Sgeo> Well, a cost to the environment of 3 iron ore that ends up giving so much back....
23:08:26 <Sgeo> Gives cobblestone, and fire, and
23:08:39 <Sgeo> fizzie, I did not even think of that
23:09:42 <elliott> Or you could just nuke everything.
23:13:41 <oerjan> elliott: mc has nukes? :D
23:13:49 <elliott> oerjan: TNT is close enough
23:13:52 <elliott> oerjan: you can even fire it
23:14:20 <elliott> oerjan: you should start playing! then you'll do absolutely _nothing_ else in a day
23:15:19 <Sgeo> MC needs spaceships
23:15:26 <oerjan> i doubt my hands will cooperate with that for very long
23:15:31 <Sgeo> I know there's a mod
23:15:36 <Sgeo> I''d like something better than a mod
23:17:10 <Sgeo> Not crappily done like in MoveCraft, and native to MC
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23:19:08 <elliott> Sgeo: How's MoveCraft crappy, and how does nativeness matter
23:23:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, MoveCraft sucks because it can't move the ROU efficiently!
23:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also because it empties chests when you use it and it can't even move a TNT cannon without being weird.
23:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, how am I meant to man the HHI war machine *now*?
23:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As a faithful HHI employee ... I am sort of relieved that you failed.
23:27:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Blown up everything?
23:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what things do you have that I would have blown up?
23:29:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I LIKE TO LIVE IN A WORLD WITHOUT TOO MUCH CARNAGE
23:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> So what's this about PHP having its own analogue to the Top Secret SMP Bug?
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23:29:42 <elliott> A PREFER A MODERATE AMOUNT OF CARNAGE AT MOST
23:30:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what about no carnage?
23:30:18 <Sgeo> Top Secret SMP Bug?
23:30:37 <Sgeo> CARNAGE FOR THE CARNAGE GOD
23:30:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's Top Secret because of the carnage that would ensue if it was made publi.
23:30:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good idea against PHP
23:31:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but only in small amounts?
23:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, it's possible to crash *any* SMP server if you can see the sky in it.
23:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://cs-people.bu.edu/stevec/cs101/01summer/forms_calc.html
23:31:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, don't reveal too much
23:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to see if I can crash this but I don't have the evil.
23:32:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "have the evil", does that mean "I don't know how" or "I'm not evil enough"?
23:33:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'm assuming that that bug will be fixed soonn?
23:33:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you mean it doesn't crash or that it does?
23:33:45 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, lolwat?
23:33:45 <elliott> Vorpal: re don't reveal too much: fizzie has explained it all in channel before
23:33:52 <elliott> Sgeo: There is no way we are telling Notch.
23:34:00 <elliott> Sgeo: One, it is useful when used maturely on our server.
23:34:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anyway it supposedly only crashes on 32-bit machines
23:34:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Two, Notch is impossibly bad at coding.
23:34:26 <elliott> It's incredibly unlikely he wouldn't do something very stupid when fixing a bug that basically undermines the entire server architecture.
23:34:49 <elliott> If someone else figures it out we'll tell Notch all we know but before then it's probably a very bad idea.
23:34:51 <Phantom_Hoover> There is an appeal in making it public and watching the world burn, but we could be completely screwed by Notch afterwards.
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23:37:11 <fizzie> I think I've seen comments that suggest it might get accidentally fixed at some point anyway.
23:37:45 <fizzie> (In his stale TODO list or somewhere.)
23:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> In revenge for wrecking our teleporter, I suggest we murder him.
23:38:20 <fizzie> There's quite many entried that say "before beta" that are completely not done on that list. :p
23:40:01 <elliott> We could just write a teleportamating plugin.
23:40:06 <elliott> It'd be less laggy too. :p
23:40:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.toodledo.com/views/public.php?id=td4b49fbf9c05a0
23:40:55 <fizzie> We do have a server-side teleporter already, if someone'd just motivate ineiros to write down the allowed destinations.
23:41:44 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Click on those funny icons that give you more detailed descriptions.
23:42:03 <fizzie> The intuitive page-with-red-block ones.
23:42:32 <elliott> fizzie: I mean an arbitrary-coord teleporter.
23:42:41 <elliott> fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something.
23:43:26 <fizzie> elliott: I think you can just edit the flat text file too.
23:43:42 <fizzie> Though the command way is I guess the official way.
23:44:08 <cheater99> elliott: has that sshc guy said anything since?
23:44:10 <fizzie> Hard to guesstimate Y values and orientation and so on.
23:44:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> We could just write a teleportamating plugin. <-- likely a heck of a lot more reliable too!
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23:44:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't see why.
23:44:57 <elliott> It doesn't _have_ to send all the chunks in-between down.
23:44:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Also it's not writing, you actually have to go there and say /addkit or something. <-- no, it is editing a file
23:45:00 <elliott> Nether travel doesn't for instance.
23:45:03 <elliott> When you return from Nether.
23:45:10 <elliott> It just generates the one chunk and gives it to you, locally.
23:45:12 <Vorpal> at least that is what I did for my local test server
23:45:22 <elliott> So all it has to do is x=foo; y=foo; if (!chunkexists()) genchunk(); sendchunk();
23:45:36 <Phantom_Hoover> So the bug comes from the fact that it's trying to squeeze all of the intermediate chunks down your connection?
23:46:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or for having to process them that rapidly even
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23:46:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I really should try it with some *really* huge coördinates at some point.
23:46:44 <elliott> Mrf, how can I show the dynamically linked libraries on OS X...
23:47:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Aww, I thought you meant on the server.
23:48:35 <Sgeo> Here's a difference between Minecraft and Active Worlds: People built stuff in AW's heyday, almost 10 years ago or more. Almost all of it still stands, to that day. The stuff you build in Minecraft... won't.
23:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*.
23:49:11 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes
23:49:22 <elliott> Sgeo: Guess what, AW's servers will go down one day too.
23:49:24 <Sgeo> Who's going to keep running private servers 10 years from now?
23:49:35 <elliott> Sgeo: And I bet there were quite a few data losses in the early days of AW.
23:49:56 <elliott> I wonder if I can make shutup somehow convey the messages more annoyingly.
23:51:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Cthulhu?
23:52:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, from the Lovecraft mythos
23:52:49 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I know that
23:53:02 <Sgeo> They said they found Cthulhu in MC? I guess that's related to the bug?
23:55:30 <Sgeo> <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, given that we found Cthulhu at a distance which was practically *reachable*.
23:55:55 <Vorpal> oh you meant the mention
23:56:00 <Vorpal> yeah Phantom_Hoover said it
23:56:11 <oerjan> cthulhu is everywhere you want to see
23:56:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, depends on terrain
23:57:14 <Vorpal> elliott, build system of something? of what?
23:57:27 <elliott> Vorpal: from the mlton binary build
23:58:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway it was more than 100 km. Both in distance and in manhattan distance
23:58:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm basing this on time to (4000,4000) anyway.
23:59:21 <elliott> that can be a patch in a minute
23:59:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess if you just run. Sure. But you end up going around mountains and so on
23:59:44 <Vorpal> and that is if you aren't out searching at the time
00:00:10 <elliott> Error: No such file or directory - usr/local
00:00:29 <elliott> oh maybe it doesn't extract the tgz
00:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, anyway, my point is that if you were trying to get to (100000,100000) by walking, you could make it without exerting superhuman time and effort.
00:00:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well that is true
00:00:49 <elliott> indeed, you could walk there
00:00:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not very fast though
00:00:58 <elliott> in maybe one or two real days
00:01:17 <Vorpal> elliott, quite. I'd say 3 because I'm a pessimist
00:01:58 <Sgeo> Someone should make an arbitrary teleport plugin and go to the edge of the world
00:02:29 <Vorpal> yes I doubt notch tested it
00:02:37 <Vorpal> server will probably crash
00:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that's basically the nature of the Top Secret SMP Bug.
00:03:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need to rename it to "not so very top secret"
00:03:31 <Sgeo> So, there's a certain coordinate that crashes the world?
00:03:42 <Sgeo> And it's within walking distance for noncheaters?
00:04:01 <Vorpal> walking wouldn't do it
00:04:39 <Sgeo> So, mod client to move very quickly to destination
00:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> //goto 100000 100000 is what did it, but that was elliott just banging the two largest numbers he could into the teleporter and seeing what happened.
00:05:49 <Sgeo> So, no explorations of the edge of the world until this gets fixed?
00:05:59 <Phantom_Hoover> //goto works by sending (assuming your location is (x,y,z)) location packets for (x,128,z) then (x',128,y').
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00:07:28 <elliott> Error: File exists - /usr/local/Cellar/mlton/20100608
00:08:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We should travel to 2^64 sometime and see if the world really wraps around. *note: terrible idea
00:08:43 <Sgeo> elliott, why terrible idea?
00:08:48 * Sgeo wants to go too!
00:08:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Server would crash incredibly.
00:08:56 <elliott> Walking there is ... beyond impossible.
00:09:05 <Sgeo> So fix the bug, then we'll go
00:09:07 * Phantom_Hoover still maintains that Minecraft takes place on a Banks Orbital.
00:09:13 <elliott> Sgeo: That would break teleportation...
00:09:17 <Vorpal> elliott, even with server side goto I suspect it might crash it badly
00:09:32 <Vorpal> elliott, best do it on local testing server and so on
00:09:32 <Sgeo> Fix the bug that teleportation causes crashes, then we'll go
00:09:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Basically unfixable.
00:09:46 <elliott> At least without hacks in the server.
00:09:47 <Vorpal> elliott, different parts of same huge planet!
00:09:50 <elliott> Teleportation Should Not Work.
00:09:57 <Sgeo> elliott, put hacks in the server, then we'll go
00:10:01 <elliott> FWIW: Even if you could travel 100000 a day, it would take 1.84 * 10^14 days to get to 2^64.
00:10:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Shut up. It is not feasible.
00:10:16 <Sgeo> Make it feasible. Then we'll go.
00:10:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes quite
00:10:27 <elliott> Sgeo: There is basically no way to make it feasible.
00:10:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, very true
00:11:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and I suggest they share the same planet. reddit might be over at out 2^63,-1874
00:11:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, we could never know!
00:11:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, are you just going to verbosely repeat everything I say from now on?
00:11:36 <Sgeo> Why? Why is it so impossible?
00:12:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yes and I suggested this was feasible. Instead of that nonsense about two or more planets in same orbital
00:13:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which I believe doesn't work
00:15:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, aren't they basically the same as atomic orbitals but applied to space? I freely admit being better at small scale (atomic level) than at large scale (astronomy)
00:15:28 <Vorpal> well not probability defined of course
00:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, you have no idea what the hell I'm going on about.
00:15:32 <Vorpal> (that wouldn't make much sense)
00:15:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_%28The_Culture%29
00:15:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you could have said
00:17:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you said "<Phantom_Hoover> And all MC worlds are the *same* Orbital"
00:17:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which line has "banks"
00:17:30 <elliott> 00:08 Phantom_Hoover still maintains that Minecraft takes place on a Banks Orbital.
00:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> * Phantom_Hoover still maintains that Minecraft takes place on a Banks Orbital.
00:17:55 <Vorpal> elliott, ah I see. hm I guess my ctcp filter suddely broke then
00:18:01 <Vorpal> can someone do a /me to test?
00:18:22 * elliott what are you even talking about
00:18:36 * Phantom_Hoover thinks Vorpal is trying to cover from an embarrassing mistake.
00:18:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was that correcting?
00:19:26 <Vorpal> ah apparently it is broken. Sigh I'll have to fix it.
00:19:37 * elliott no don't fix it this is amazing
00:20:02 <Vorpal> a missing negation in a test
00:20:54 <oerjan> oh, _turd_. i thought you said _hird_
00:21:05 <Vorpal> now to read up on missed bits in the log. I wonder what "* elliott the best in fact" was (the first line after the fix went into place)
00:22:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is the onomatopoeic sound made by a car horn in English?
00:22:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, cross language joke at elliott's expense doomed to fail then
00:23:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no it is "tut" (with a long u sound, though not long as in ü of german, which is closer to our y)
00:23:56 * oerjan expects cross language pun to whoosh over Vorpal's head
00:24:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, how can that possibly wash over my head. Though it is ambig. I can decode that as two different things for English and Swedish. Or does Norwegian have a third one?
00:25:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: well i expect you to be oblivious about the english meaning >:)
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00:25:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, you were wrong
00:26:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes I blame it's shoddy API with no proper namespacing and overuse of macros
00:26:59 * Sgeo listens to the sample from the Dj WHO SHARES MY NAME
00:27:05 <Sgeo> SORRY FOR CAPS
00:27:14 <oerjan> Sgeo: you should be golden then
00:30:12 <elliott> Sgeo: haven't you listened to that like fifty times
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00:39:40 <elliott> "The night was darker than usual. I could see no stars and not even the moon. At first I thought perhaps a large cloud was passing slowly overhead, but then, just before dawn, I realised I had just bumped 'F' and turned the draw distance to short."
00:42:04 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Seth+Gold%22&sa=N&tbs=nws:1,cd_min:2000,cd_max:2010,cdr:1
00:42:07 <Sgeo> I am none of these Seths
00:42:08 <Vorpal> elliott, what an anti-climax :D
00:48:35 <elliott> https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/3817 \o/
01:14:04 * elliott considers doing some coding in ATS
01:16:31 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.ats-lang.org/ fall in love with it without understanding the type theory and i'll kill you.
01:18:16 <elliott> http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/MISC/quicksort_list_dats.html proven quicksort in ats :)
01:18:37 <Sgeo> Would you kill me?
01:18:38 <elliott> because the type theory behind is the whole reason it's interesting.
01:18:46 <elliott> Sgeo: because you did it with Ur
01:18:56 <Sgeo> When did I fall in love with Ur?
01:19:22 <elliott> when you found out about it
01:19:24 <Sgeo> I looked at it, felt a bit queasy, and left, without understanding the type theory
01:19:37 <elliott> please tell me you didn't actually feel physically queasy.
01:20:09 <Sgeo> I have other emotional issues going on that make me feel physically queasy
01:21:52 <Sgeo> Nothing to do (well, little to do) with her
01:22:06 <Sgeo> Well, hmm. Not exactly true
01:22:09 <elliott> But she'll have to live with it!
01:22:27 <elliott> A-.T. sounds like Katie ergo her name is Katie.
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01:52:41 <zzo38> Do you know in TeX, you might do: \kern\dimen7\endgroup\dimen7\lastkern\unkern
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01:54:27 <zzo38> cheater99: Well, now you can.
01:54:37 <zzo38> (That is, if you have TeX on your computer.)
01:55:14 <zzo38> cheater99: Is it because you have no TeX?
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01:55:27 <oerjan> i _think_ Mr. cheater99 might be referring to the fact he has absolutely no clue what the commands there _do_. neither do i.
01:55:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you know TeX?
01:55:58 <cheater99> i'm more referring to the fact that i don't care much for tex :p
01:56:26 <oerjan> i know/knew enough _latex_ to get a few papers published.
01:57:09 <zzo38> oerjan: Are the commands I used not in LaTeX? These are primitive TeX commands, does LaTeX override them or have some other reason why you can't use it?
01:58:21 <oerjan> zzo38: well i've never used any of them in latex. i guess some of them might exist.
01:59:21 <zzo38> All five of them are primitive, so all of them will exist in LaTeX unless LaTeX overrides them.
02:00:31 <oerjan> i assume they're not used much because they're very low-level
02:05:07 <zzo38> My example is a kind of trick I made up for moving a number to the outside of a group without making it global.
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03:50:20 <variable> zzo38, re the project - what's the link for the sources again
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04:19:11 <zzo38> variable: http://sprunge.us/gFHT
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04:29:28 <zzo38> variable: Is that the only file you want? Do you want to see the other files too?
04:30:03 <variable> zzo38, I'm looking at this one now
04:35:52 <variable> if(stack_ptr[0].is_string || stack_ptr[1].is_string) -> looks weird to me
04:36:12 <variable> I prefer something like if ( not is_number ) or something like that
04:37:27 <variable> zzo38, curious - what type of comments are you looking for? nitty stuff in the code or higher level?
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04:38:21 <zzo38> variable: "is_string" is the boolean field indicating whether it is a string or not; since it is initialized to zero, a string need not be allocated and it works very good (making all variable default to zero)! Perhaps I should explain that near where register_value is defined.
04:38:33 <zzo38> variable: I am looking for any kind of comments/question/suggestion you want to make.
04:39:02 <variable> zzo38, also - do you have a sample card ?
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04:39:34 <variable> and your roman numeral's algo fails when it comes to "M"
04:39:39 <zzo38> variable: Like I said, the program is not finished yet, so it produces no cards yet. (What I have does work though)
04:40:10 <variable> zzo38, yes - but I'd like to see how a card would be defined - even if its not produced yet
04:40:47 <zzo38> variable: Yes I know the roman numeral algorithm fails (even way before "M"). But it is good enough up to XXXIX, which should be way more than you need for most sets of cards where you want to use roman numerals in the card titles.
04:41:11 <zzo38> (Any more than that and you would probably be defining the cards automatically by program anyways)
04:41:30 <zzo38> variable: OK, I will make an example of how a card might be defined:
04:41:52 <variable> zzo38, please don't take my criticism wrongly - I'm just throwing out things I see
04:42:02 <variable> one general note: spacing -- eeeek
04:42:22 <zzo38> variable: I am not being offended or taking it wrongly. It is OK to make your opinion to write how you want it.
04:43:30 <variable> fflush(stdout); --> I don't see the point
04:44:07 <variable> if(!fgets --> I prefer explicitness over brevity - but that is more stylistic
04:45:32 <zzo38> A very simple example of card input: http://sprunge.us/IYej (Note it might be slightly different in the end -- and this example is for Magic: the Gathering (but you can have things for other games too))
04:45:35 <variable> if(buf[1]>' ') *b++=buf[1]|0x80; --> I would break this into multiple statements (separate out the increment for example)
04:46:25 <variable> zzo38, I imagine this is intended to be written using some higher level interface and generated automatically do be passed to your program?
04:47:10 <zzo38> fflush(stdout); might be needed (depending on operating system and C library implementations and stuff).
04:47:42 <variable> switch(*p) {.... *b++=*++p; ....
04:47:51 <variable> i would do the increment after the switch because every case needs it
04:48:16 <zzo38> variable: Cards and templates are intended to be written as plain text files. The program then does many things with it (there is also the file "plain.cards" which is a template which can be included by your other template, and then the other template included by your card set input).
04:49:41 <zzo38> variable: The increment *is* done (in the for loop), just some commands need twice increment "p". (Unless you mean the "b" increment; Yes it is needed in every case but some need twice)
04:50:14 <variable> zzo38, I was thinking of the b increment
04:50:27 <variable> personally I dislike things of the form ___++ =
04:50:48 <variable> even though I know exactly what they do - it creates more work in my mind to understand it
04:51:25 <zzo38> variable: Yes I thought you might have meant that. Still, some things need b increment twice. And things of the form ___++ = is common and proper C code, it should not be unclear and I do not dislike it. Still, you can have your opinion. (I won't likely change it though)
04:52:06 <variable> zzo38, yes its common, proper, - I just don't find it very clear. I DO NOT want to get into another war </convo> :-}
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04:54:08 <variable> actually I may need parens around that
04:54:22 <j-invariant> variable: and that's the same as *prt=3; ptr++; ?
04:55:04 <variable> j-invariant, yes - although I might need parens
04:55:06 <zzo38> *ptr++ is equivalent to *(ptr++) in C.
04:55:53 <variable> j-invariant, listen to zzo38 - I havn't touched it in a while
04:56:15 <variable> foo.c:4:6: error: expression is not assignable
04:56:38 <j-invariant> I think *(ptr++) = 3; will set *ptr to 3 then increment ptr
04:56:41 <zzo38> variable: x++ = 3; is improper.
04:56:52 <variable> zzo38, yeah - that is what I was pointing out\
04:57:04 <zzo38> j-invariant: You are right about *(ptr++) = 3;
04:57:20 <variable> j-invariant, yes you are correct
05:00:10 <variable> zzo38, that's about it for now - nothing major - just more stylistic nitpicks
05:01:09 <zzo38> No other questions about the program?
05:02:05 <variable> zzo38, a) vcs location b) keep me/the channel informed ?
05:04:04 <j-invariant> zz038: What are the a with umlats? something edible?
05:05:28 <zzo38> variable: I have no version control system for it, sorry. I am just working on it myself.
05:05:41 <zzo38> j-invariant: The "a" with umlauts are ammunition that you can pick up.
05:05:57 <zzo38> (Push ENTER to view your current status, including ammnition and so on. Hold SPACE and arrow key at same time to shoot.)
05:06:40 <variable> zzo38, just for your sanity i would put it into a mercurial (or $vcs of your choice) repository. reverting or viewing diffs of old versions is a huge timesaver
05:08:06 <zzo38> variable: Unfortunately I have no VCS installed. (If I install one, I will do so.)
05:08:07 <variable> j-invariant, compose key: insanely useful
05:08:31 <zzo38> variable: Invalid UTF-8 character!!
05:08:31 <variable> zzo38, <flamesuit>look into mercurial</flamesuit>
05:08:42 <zzo38> variable: I will consider it.
05:08:51 <variable> j-invariant, I set my capslock key to compose
05:09:11 <variable> I use control for control ....
05:09:27 <variable> maybe use control then for compose ?
05:10:16 <variable> <ber rant>"There is no pulse... lets shock him" --- you DON'T SHOCK A FLATLINE </rant>
05:12:28 <zzo38> variable: Invalid UTF-8 character again. Maybe you should post in UTF-8, nearly everyone else in this channel uses UTF-8.
05:13:11 <variable> zzo38, what encoding does it look like I'm using
05:13:21 <zzo38> j-invariant: I can see upsidedown-questionmark
05:13:52 <zzo38> variable: Your output is not valid UTF-8. I just see a block (which my client displays whenever it received invalid codes).
05:14:00 <zzo38> j-invariant: I can see yen sign
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05:16:26 <zzo38> variable, j-invariant: I can see both yen sign.
05:16:31 <pikhq> variable: Well, that certainly was the yen/renminbi symbol.
05:17:13 <pikhq> variable: Before you quit-and-joined, what you were putting out was identical to U+FFFD, or "REPLACEMENT CHARACTER".
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05:17:38 <pikhq> Well, rather, it displayed identically.
05:17:40 <zzo38> j-invariant: Just don't waste your ammunition, please.
05:18:35 <zzo38> pikhq: Not on my computer. On my computer it displays a special block to indicate invalid unicode character, it does not display U+FFFD in that case. (Probably most programs do; but PuTTY doesn't use U+FFFD to represent invalid characters.)
05:19:27 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, the rendering of invalid Unicode or a transformation format thereof is, I'm pretty sure, implementation-defined behavior. So.
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05:20:22 <zzo38> invariable: I see the block for invalid code.
05:20:31 <pikhq> invariable: U+FFFD
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05:21:45 <pikhq> j-invariant: From you, U+00A5, YEN SIGN.
05:22:16 <zzo38> pikhq: I also see yen sign from j-invariant.
05:22:32 <j-invariant> the green slime on the inappropriate key shop
05:23:11 <zzo38> I enabled logging, you can send it again so that I can check the log file to see what it contains.
05:23:11 <pikhq> invariable: What encoding are you outputting, Windows-1252 or something?
05:24:03 <variable> if it fits in 1252 it uses 1252. if its larger it uses UTF-8
05:24:30 <variable> I fixed it so it uses pure UTF-8
05:25:47 <pikhq> variable: Arrgh, I hate that behavior.
05:26:43 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK. Transports (they are called Transports, not teleports) work in two ways: If something moves into a transporter from the back (opposite direction of pointing):
05:27:02 <zzo38> * If the space directly in front of it is free (or will be free once something is pushed out of the way), move there.
05:27:59 <zzo38> * If not, try the Transports in the order they appear across the board moving in the same direction, but that are pointing in the opposite direction to the source Transport, find one which is free at the *back* (or can be made free by pushing things). Move to the first one found.
05:28:13 <zzo38> * If neither condition applies, the Transport is considered blocked and nothing moves.
05:28:50 <zzo38> j-invariant: Understand how Transports work now?
05:29:44 <zzo38> j-invariant: The green slime blob can push things, and is a solid object (blocks transporters and other things). It can even push the bomb (dark gray male sign). And then you can use a potion to make the bomb explode near something you want destroyed.
05:30:13 <j-invariant> I don't think I have any potions but maybe I could buy one with the money I got in the forest
05:30:18 <zzo38> j-invariant: "In front" is where the transporter is pointing (the direction of movement). "In back" is the opposite direction of pointing.
05:30:40 <zzo38> j-invariant: You cannot buy potions. There is one in a chest in the inappropriate keys room.
05:31:03 <variable> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ ?
05:32:27 <j-invariant> but I can't get into that chest because ther is a gate in the way
05:34:53 <zzo38> j-invariant: You can get the chest inside the small room near the south side. You need to use the Transports (before you enter the main area).
05:35:07 <j-invariant> how can I use a transport before I am in the room?
05:35:11 <zzo38> No, transporters are *not* the numbers. Transporters are the directional.
05:36:47 <zzo38> j-invariant: See? You did part of it. Now to make sure all the switches can be pushed without blocking the door with the flashy diamond!
05:37:23 <j-invariant> but there is no way to lift the bomb up to the red part with the green slime
05:45:39 <zzo38> j-invariant: Did you do it?
05:46:00 <zzo38> j-invariant: Explode the red part.
05:48:14 <j-invariant> but I have not managed to stop that triangle from falling into a place that blocks me
05:48:41 <zzo38> j-invariant: Well, restore to a point before that happened and try again.
05:51:56 <j-invariant> I had a good idea which was drop it onto the slime and then let the question mark push it into the lava but that did not work
05:53:02 <zzo38> j-invariant: Nothing can be pushed into lava. The slime is not pushable.
05:53:23 <j-invariant> I meant push have the question mark push the falling triangle on top of the slime
05:53:50 <zzo38> j-invariant: The triangle (called a Pusher) also is not pushable.
05:54:08 <zzo38> The slime can block the pusher, though.
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06:02:39 <j-invariant> I was able to get the flashy gem but if I move I will be trapped :|
06:03:32 <zzo38> j-invariant: Maybe you can try to run fast.
06:03:56 <j-invariant> I didn't run fast enough but maybe it can work if the slime is a bit higher
06:04:13 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes, that should work better. No, there is no special key to run faster.
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06:11:51 <zzo38> j-invariant: Oops. You can restore and try again. Hint for dragon room: When you step from the edge of one board to another, if the cell in the next board is occupied, the object there will be deleted!
06:12:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: how long did you work on making this game?
06:14:05 <zzo38> j-invariant: I think it was a few years. But I did not work on it all the time during those years.
06:16:20 <zzo38> (Where the object is deleted when moving across edges, is a rule of MegaZeux. ZZT has a different rule for moving though edges.)
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09:08:20 <olsner> nooga: does this refer to you? http://i.imgur.com/pNwff.jpg
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10:17:43 <nooga> olsner: not at all
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11:37:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of castles and forts. I have a plan for a 320*320 fort in my single player game. Still calculating on it and drawing plans in gimp and so on
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11:37:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I'm a wimp. But sure once it is built, maybe
11:37:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, probably an inner fort in the middle. So these are lower outer walls
11:38:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Kalmar slott!
11:39:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the way it looks atm, these outer walls will be 15 blocks thick
11:39:45 <Phantom_Hoover> You need at most two to make it impervious to creepers.
11:40:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well duh. This is because it will look grand
11:41:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there are far more useful designs than this I plan. But not nearly as cool designs
11:42:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't have any dimensions on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kalmar_%28stad%29_%2816409041%29.jpg so my castle will only be inspired by it
11:42:30 <Vorpal> hard to build a replica without having any measurements
11:42:48 <nooga> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
11:43:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kalmar_slott.nordostra_sidan.jpg
11:44:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also round towers are a bitch in minecraft so I suspect I will make mine square :)
11:56:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: That main part of the castle is about 80m across: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=56.65808&lon=16.35533&zoom=17&layers=M
11:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> He overthrew his human masters and went into hiding in Finland.
11:59:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, well it looks like mine will be 240 across for the main part. And also more rectangular. The shape of that castle looks painful in minecraft
12:05:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes I recommend that you build a desktop
12:06:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I am terribly afraid that I would seriously mess that up.
12:07:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay, but how will you ever be able to get any experience then?
12:09:19 <fizzie> I recommend a "Blackstorm Dragon X6", because of the completely ridiculous name.
12:09:46 <fizzie> Anyway, it's not like building a computer is rocket science: you have the parts, you just screw and/or plug them together.
12:10:00 <fizzie> Quite often there aren't even that many ways to screw up.
12:10:15 <fizzie> As long as you don't belong to the "if the connector doesn't fit, just use a bigger hammer" school of engineering.
12:11:50 <Deewiant> It's easier these days anyway, due to silly safety features like CPUs knowing to shut themselves down if they get too hot
12:11:51 <Vorpal> speaking of rocket science, I like the how "dragon magic" has been used in Discworld with the equivalent meaning.
12:12:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about ESD?
12:12:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is what I just said
12:13:11 <fizzie> Wear one of those silly wrist-wraps, don't pet a cat all the time during the build.
12:13:34 <fizzie> Well, don't let it help.
12:13:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, shut it out of the room while building the thing
12:13:49 <fizzie> Ours have been very... enthusiastic about computer-builds, but it's probably not a good idea.
12:13:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, also take off any fleece jacket or similar
12:14:17 <fizzie> Admittedly they are enthusiastic about every sort of thing where their enthusiasm is not especially appreciated.
12:14:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I wear jumpers which are essentially woollen all the time!
12:14:52 <fizzie> I suggest naked computer-building; it's a more sensual experience that way.
12:15:13 <Vorpal> btw, my laptop has one of those silly fingerprint readers. I recently got a static dis-charge when touching it. Made me a bit worried.
12:15:35 <Vorpal> (touching it due to resting palm on palmrest, and it is placed in the palmrest)
12:16:25 <fizzie> It's probably just connected to whatever passes for ground in a laptop.
12:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's clearly trying to steal your identity, then kill you and replace you in order that it can make us human slaves in a laptop nation.
12:16:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, well it probably is connected to ground. The thing was plugged into AC
12:17:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I wonder what is ground in a laptop on battery hm
12:17:40 <fizzie> Most of my laptop chargers have used a non-grounded (two-surface) plug.
12:18:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, all mine use a grounded plug, except for that first model ibook I have somewhere
12:18:18 <fizzie> Some have a grounded plug for the actual adapter, but the part that delivers DC to the laptop seems to be always just two wires.
12:18:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are 3 metal parts in the DC connector to the thinkpad
12:18:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, on my old dell there are just 2 for that part though
12:20:33 <Vorpal> hm both my x86/x86-64 laptops have some strange hardware. the thinkpad has that fingerprint reader. The old dell has a smartcard reader
12:20:53 <Vorpal> neither of those components work under linux. And I have never seen any use for them
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12:21:18 <fizzie> They've been sticking that fingerprint reader in quite a lot of thinkpads.
12:21:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he meant europlug...
12:22:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Didn't we discuss this already extensively? (Or was that pikhq?)
12:22:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know, the flat one with two prongs
12:22:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlug
12:22:56 <Vorpal> "It was designed such that it can safely be used in the domestic power sockets of all European countries, except for the BS 1363 system found in Britain, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Ireland and Malta." <-- ah, guess you never seen it then
12:23:08 <fizzie> "The Europlug (plug only, not socket from the picture) is used in Class II applications throughout continental Europe (Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey). It is also used in the
12:23:08 <fizzie> Middle East, most African nations, South America (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Peru and Bolivia), Asia (Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Pakistan and the Philippines) as well as Russia and the former Soviet republics, such as Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia, and many developing nations. It is also used alongside the BS 1363 in many nations, particularly former British colonies."
12:23:13 <fizzie> Barbaria extends quite widely.
12:23:24 <elliott> 20:46:25 <variable> zzo38, I imagine this is intended to be written using some higher level interface and generated automatically do be passed to your program?
12:23:32 <elliott> variable: no, zzo38 likes making his interfaces esolangs
12:23:41 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko is the more typical kind of plug though.
12:23:58 <j-invariant> http://www.cs.uoregon.edu/Activities/summerschool/summer10/curriculum.html
12:24:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well yeah. But europlug is common for things like lamps and such.
12:24:10 <elliott> 20:50:27 <variable> personally I dislike things of the form ___++ =
12:24:15 <elliott> variable: K&R would hate you :)
12:24:33 <Deewiant> I wouldn't know, I don't have lamps with plugs. :-P
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12:27:46 <fizzie> The iBook charger has a shucko plug in the "about 1-1.5m of wire" attachment, but you can replace that with a europlug-shaped "plugs directly into the socket" attachment (there's always 1-1.5m of thinner wire from the AC adapter to the laptop itself), if you don't mind taking a lot of space directly at the socket.
12:28:22 <j-invariant> http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/Kan_Extensions_For.png
12:29:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes that is modern ibook
12:29:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I meant the old first model ibook
12:29:28 <nooga> i died with 8 buckets
12:29:34 <nooga> when building my death trap
12:29:46 <nooga> and i'm fed up with it
12:29:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, you know, turquoise clamshell
12:29:53 <nooga> it's time to change world
12:30:10 <fizzie> Well, the G4; I'm not sure how "modern" that is any more. Anyway, it was a generic sort of a comment on plugs, not a response to any iBook comment; I must've missed that completely.
12:31:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, not europlug, but same basic idea: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.batteriepcportable.org/images/SKU_1424_PB.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.batteriepcportable.org/apple-ibook-powerbook-g3-45w-adaptateur-pc-portable-p-1518.html&usg=__0Y-sXN49JUbdFqdT3xlyNPxZOZE=&h=480&w=480&sz=35&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=KjcVgFnUa7gM2M:&tbnh=128&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dclamshell%2Bibook%2Bpower%2Ba
12:31:33 <Vorpal> dapter%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DWyn%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1508%26bih%3D679%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=502&ei=bGQkTeG-GseAswbVyoTXDA&oei=bGQkTeG-GseAswbVyoTXDA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=68&ty=50
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12:33:57 <fizzie> It looks a bit strange.
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12:34:41 <fizzie> The G4 charger looks like http://www.laptopkeyboards.org/images/image.jpg except that in addition to the plug bit, it came with a similarly-socketed thing that has a shucko plug and some amount of wire.
12:34:53 <elliott> 20:52:31 <j-invariant> huh that's interesting x++ = 3; ?
12:34:54 <elliott> 20:52:49 <j-invariant> what does that set x to 4 or something?
12:35:05 <elliott> j-invariant: it makes demons fly out of your nose (undefined behaviour)
12:35:09 <elliott> *x++ = 3 is well-defined otoh
12:35:40 <elliott> 20:56:38 <j-invariant> I think *(ptr++) = 3; will set *ptr to 3 then increment ptr
12:35:46 <elliott> most commonly written *ptr++ = 3.
12:36:03 * j-invariant continues playing zzos completely insane game
12:36:55 <elliott> `addquote <j-invariant> zz038: What are the a with umlats? something edible?
12:37:03 <elliott> j-invariant: are you somehow surprised that it's insane? :D
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12:37:40 <elliott> to win, utilise the reverse causality-looped biocentrism article to write the equation for entanglement that doesn't assume the other side is real. that opens the door to happy
12:37:54 <elliott> 21:08:20 <j-invariant> do I have a compose key
12:37:54 <elliott> 21:08:25 <j-invariant> or should I set some key to be it?
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12:38:06 <elliott> 21:08:20 <j-invariant> do I have a compose key
12:38:06 <elliott> 21:08:25 <j-invariant> or should I set some key to be it?
12:38:14 <elliott> j-invariant: I assign it to the right windows key or the menu key usually
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12:38:20 <j-invariant> there is a button on my keyboard to TURN OFF INTERNET???
12:38:23 <elliott> j-invariant: you can do it in system -> preferences -> keyboard in ubuntu i think
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12:38:39 <elliott> SIR! MR PRESIDENT! SOMEONE... HAS TURNED OFF... THE INTERNET
12:39:26 <elliott> 21:16:42 <j-invariant> this is rubbish
12:39:26 <elliott> 21:16:48 <j-invariant> [[ doesn't do semantics brackets
12:39:31 <elliott> j-invariant: the default compose files are useless
12:39:36 <elliott> j-invariant: you can extend them in ~/.XCompose
12:39:48 <zzo38> I do not like WINDOWS key and MENU key. I like to call it the LOGO key and CONTEXT key, and they should actually be labeled with those words, instead of the icons they commonly do.
12:39:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> to win, utilise the reverse causality-looped biocentrism article to write the equation for entanglement that doesn't assume the other side is real. that opens the door to happy <-- where is that from? the game you discussed? :D
12:39:56 <elliott> j-invariant: you have to put [[include "%L"]] at the top to get your language's compose files, or you might want to base it on the US versions
12:40:12 <elliott> j-invariant: a TODO-some-time for me is to write a bunch of compose files from scratch without that
12:40:13 <j-invariant> zzo38: I agree - it also makes no sense that a computer bought with ubuntu on it would have a windwos logo button
12:40:34 <elliott> Vorpal: no, that's how zzo38 says you understand quantum free will. apart from the door to happy thing.
12:40:51 <elliott> Vorpal: 11:07:23 <zzo38> See "Biocentrism (cosmology)" on wikipedia and then double-reverse it into a cosmology loop and write the equation for a entanglement with non-existent phenomena (you can do so using the normal equations for quantum entanglement), and then you might understand slightly.
12:41:22 <elliott> that is why i am now a quantum free willist.
12:41:55 <elliott> 21:22:32 <j-invariant> the green slime on the inappropriate key shop
12:42:16 <Vorpal> speaking of keys, the "menu key" should not be "context" as zzo38 suggested. Rather it should say "compose" on it
12:42:43 <elliott> How about all keys are unlabelled and they can do what you want. Bonus: I don't have to cringe as my mother hunts-and-pecks the keys interminably slowly.
12:43:04 <Vorpal> elliott, why not put an LCD screen on each, to be able to relabel them on the fly. Oh wait.
12:43:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Why not make the whole keyboard out of projected light. http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/wp-images/virtualkeyboard.jpg Oh wait.
12:43:49 <zzo38> I think it should say "CONTEXT" but it should have a sticker that says "COMPOSE" on it.
12:44:05 <Vorpal> elliott, because the key travel distance sucks :P
12:44:16 <elliott> Yes ... brilliant idea ... stickers on keyboards are both nice to look at, useful, and when removed, do not make the key underneath sticky.
12:44:22 <elliott> I fully approve of this ridiculous idea.
12:44:30 <elliott> Vorpal: just do it on a sponge
12:44:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, stickers don't work on keyboards. 1) what elliott said 2) they get worn out.
12:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, awesome. Might feel a bit mushy though. Even more than membrane
12:44:56 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK. Some keyboards get worn out even without putting stickers on it.
12:45:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, well they all do sooner or later
12:45:11 <zzo38> j-invariant: How much have you got to so far?
12:45:38 <zzo38> Have you figured out the dragon room?
12:46:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, but it has taken almost 10 years for the keys to start becoming blank on the keyboard I'm using atm
12:46:39 <zzo38> Vorpal: The keyboard I am working on I think has lasted more than ten years already.
12:46:42 <Vorpal> ctrl, shift and s are still visible but the markings on them are light grey, no longer black. Same for part of the enter key
12:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> How about all keys are unlabelled and they can do what you want. Bonus: I don't have to cringe as my mother hunts-and-pecks the keys interminably slowly. ← How does the former solve the latter?
12:47:02 <Vorpal> and it still works perfectly in all other respects
12:47:10 <zzo38> But the LEDs are slightly worn out.
12:47:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because she won't be able to figure out what each key does by looking at it; therefore, hunting-and-pecking would either be impossible, or a random walk.
12:47:58 <zzo38> j-invariant: Did you remember my hint about the edge walking rule in MegaZeux?
12:48:21 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I guess hill climbing wouldn't work very well on a keyboard unless you already know the layout, in which case it is pointless
12:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, she will then take the invariable approach of such people and scream at you until you fix it.
12:48:42 <elliott> move to middle of left, middle of right
12:48:50 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, only if you know the relative order and so on
12:49:08 <elliott> guess that's more quaternary search
12:49:12 <zzo38> The rule for walking off of one edge of the board to another board, is, if there is an object in the way of the place you would end up on in the next board, that object is deleted and replaced by the player object.
12:49:19 <elliott> also you'd need to find backspace first
12:49:33 <Vorpal> I can't tell you where a key is exactly. Yet I can touch type. Humans...
12:49:49 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.telehash.org/
12:49:58 <zzo38> Vorpal: I can touch type and I can tell you where a key is exactly. All of them.
12:50:15 <zzo38> I use all of the keys on the keyboard.
12:50:39 <Vorpal> zzo38, without looking at keyboard, what are the neighbour keys of g, starting from top going clockwise
12:52:38 <fizzie> "tyhbvf", but I had to touch the keyboard to be able to calculate positions, and it took quite a long time. Anyway, that's "tell which key is at position x", not "tell the position of key x".
12:52:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: Try asking me next time by not computer.
12:52:54 <Vorpal> zzo38, "by not computer"?
12:53:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: By computer I can easily touch them. And I will see the keyboard anyways; it is not invisible.
12:53:38 <elliott> fizzie: how do you add commits to pull requests, obviously you are github expert
12:53:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, well you could look away from keyboard. Might be harder if you have a laptop though
12:54:01 <fizzie> elliott: I haven't used that side of it, sowwy.
12:54:06 <zzo38> Laptop computers are more difficult.
12:54:13 * elliott was about to doubt that zzo38 used Pause/Break or F12 but ... yeah ok.
12:54:51 <elliott> zzo38: So without looking at your keyboard, what are the neighbour keys of L, starting from the top, going clockwise? Just look away from your keyboard to work out the answer and then type it out.
12:54:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I used those keys. Not on a daily basis. I don't use scroll lock on a daily basis
12:55:13 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, it auto-adds it. Thanks for the advice!
12:55:15 <Vorpal> in fact I used scroll lock twice I think
12:55:48 <zzo38> elliott: OK I thought of it while blind-folded and now I will type. O, P, semicolon, dot, comma, K
12:56:04 <elliott> zzo38: Were you actually blind-folded?
12:56:38 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "tyhbvf", but I had to touch the keyboard to be able to calculate positions, and it took quite a long time. Anyway, that's "tell which key is at position x", not "tell the position of key x". <-- btw you missed r
12:56:51 <elliott> Vorpal: i think you have to concede here
12:57:03 <zzo38> I made myself blind-folded so that I can answer the question without cheating.
12:57:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: That doesn't touch the g key here.
12:57:32 <zzo38> R key doesn't touch G key.
12:57:39 <elliott> Vorpal: insufficient concdeding
12:57:59 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I never claimed it was easy to do. Nor that I could do it myself. I even made it as an example on how bloody hard it was. :P
12:58:15 <elliott> Vorpal: "If you're not zzo38, [previous statement]" will do.
12:58:27 <Vorpal> well, I'm impressed by zzo38 certainly
12:58:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and presumably there are other people who could do it. But I bet most touch typers would have to do like fizzie
12:59:28 <zzo38> It is still difficult. But I can type all the keys without looking at the keys. This is different than thinking about keys clockwise around the other and so on, which is a more difficult thing, but is still possible to think about. Not too difficult, though.
13:00:58 <zzo38> j-invariant: Figure it out yet? Or, do you want another hint?
13:01:14 <Vorpal> lets try again: manhattan distance between h and e? For purposes of not making this /completely/ insane, first skew the keyboard so the keys are straight above each other.
13:01:40 <Vorpal> j-invariant, the one that needs least skewing then
13:02:18 <zzo38> j-invariant: Also, if something is blocked from moving (or from being pushed) it will stay still (in most cases). Also, nothing can overwrite the player object, although the player object is pushable and can be teleported and damaged and so on.
13:03:36 <Vorpal> j-invariant, anyway what I intended was skewing such that q and a are straight above z
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13:04:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: 4, but that's an easy letter-pair.
13:05:11 <fizzie> It's just strlen("asdfgh")-strlen("qwe")+1, after all.
13:05:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, quite. What about menu key and å? (okay that one is ill defined due to the varying widths of those keys)
13:05:27 <fizzie> Yes, and my menu key is fn-printscreen, for some unfathomable reason. :p
13:05:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what the.... Is it a laptop?
13:05:51 <fizzie> No, which makes it unfathomable.
13:06:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, image of this keyboard please
13:06:18 <fizzie> I like the keyboard otherwise, but they've made some really weird decisions when it comes to layout.
13:06:25 <fizzie> I'll try to find an image that has sufficient resolution.
13:06:34 <zzo38> I know some keyboards do have strange layout such as things like that.
13:06:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, it isn't like you don't have a camera
13:07:12 <Vorpal> my desktop keyboard doesn't even have fn
13:07:22 <Vorpal> well, like most desktop keyboards
13:09:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's someone else's photo; it's not the fin/swe layout, but it's reasonably similar: http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4846/top2xg1.jpg
13:10:12 <fizzie> By "resonably" I mean "not very", apparently; it doesn't have that single-height enter or anything, it's quite regular when it comes to key shapes.
13:10:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, your keyboard presumably has the proper enter key?
13:11:44 <fizzie> I can't imagine who came up with the "hey, let's make the del key take the space of the ins key too, and push ins up to that three-key block" idea.
13:11:55 <elliott> the two-height enter sucks
13:11:56 <Vorpal> my keyboard is simply the classical layout.
13:12:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed very strange
13:13:37 <fizzie> This is maybe a clearer image; it has the cyrillic alphabet add-on, but the "usual" (for fi layout, anyway) enter: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0p5ZC3UeCmg/TAp9HcnB8sI/AAAAAAAADD0/NEpX-R2RH6Y/s1600/Logitech+Illuminated+Keyboard.jpg
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13:14:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is up with the laptop sized esc/f-key row?
13:14:41 <elliott> F keys aren't exactly _useful_.
13:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, esc is however
13:15:08 <elliott> Well, sure; I don't have any problems hitting this laptop's smaller esc, so I don't see why it would be a problem.
13:15:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, the only annoying thing for my thinkpad is that esc is above f1
13:16:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, but the size doesn't seem to be a problem.
13:17:08 <fizzie> The double-sized delete is more of an issue, though it's not like I use ins/del very often either, they're so far off.
13:17:24 <fizzie> Lack of a proper menu key for compose is a bit annoying.
13:17:34 <fizzie> (The 'fn' can't be mapped to anything, since it doesn't send a keypress.)
13:17:44 <Vorpal> this is a t61, but the keyboard layout is about the same (apart from the wrong sized enter and so on) http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/mobile/lenovo-thinkpad-t61/keyboard.jpg
13:19:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it send a key press if you hold it down for a few seconds?
13:20:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, it does that on my thinkpad if you hold down fn for a few seconds and don't hit any other key
13:20:28 <elliott> j-invariant: what's your favourite language
13:20:40 <zzo38> Do you know of codes which can be used in TeX to calculate to make circles and stuff for fitting paragraphs? Perhaps I can try to figure it out, too.
13:21:32 <Vorpal> fn-pgup (toggle keyboard light) doesn't send anything to the OS. The various other fn combos send stuff, either as keys or as acpi events
13:21:53 <elliott> j-invariant: but favourite? :p
13:21:57 <j-invariant> mmy favorite will be epigram when it exists
13:23:17 <elliott> my favourite programming language is C+=0.5
13:23:48 <zzo38> elliott: Which is like what?
13:24:07 <elliott> it's C, plus the bad half (ok more than half) of C++!
13:25:45 <zzo38> I have other ideas what C ought to have. I think there ought to be a kind of C with #try #catch #endtry but not try catch endtry.
13:25:45 <elliott> pop quiz: can you have a fully posix-compliant operating system with no multi-user support whatsoever?
13:26:30 <zzo38> elliott: Does it work that it can be POSIX compliant with no multi-user support?
13:28:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> pop quiz: can you have a fully posix-compliant operating system with no multi-user support whatsoever? <-- there were those embedded profiles before. Not sure how they worked
13:28:14 <Vorpal> elliott, but that would mean everything runs as root?
13:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, any specific reason you asked this? or just general curiosity?
13:29:29 <elliott> Curiosity, when reading this article about Haiku.
13:29:38 <Vorpal> elliott, haiku the OS?
13:30:00 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't it beos inspired or something? Or am I mixing things up?
13:30:19 <Vorpal> heh, who would have thought that
13:31:14 <Vorpal> hm I think building this castle (single player) on land would suck. It needs a coastal location anyway. But I don't have that large seas.
13:32:22 <Vorpal> to begin with, it is 320x320 for the bounding box of the outer walls. (Excluding extruding corner towers)
13:32:45 <Vorpal> the outer wall will be 15 blocks.
13:33:06 <Vorpal> (probably around 20 in height, not sure yet)
13:34:11 <nooga> now i'm pissed off
13:34:18 <nooga> i'm making 32x32 trap
13:34:54 <Vorpal> the inner section (the actual castle) will probably have walls around 35 high. Towers about 55 high. From sea level this means I'm at altitude 120 for the top of the towers.
13:35:14 <Vorpal> nooga, why are you pissed off?
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13:36:16 <j-invariant> -- relational interpretations and world destruction
13:37:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who, nooga?
13:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No, j-invariant and relational interpretations and world destruction.
13:38:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I probably haven't even tried that (fn long-press); maybe I should.
13:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Arbitrary_effect_at_an_arbitrary_point
13:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely you can forbid a whole class of FSAs for a TM's control structure and still make a UTM possible?
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13:44:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ask ais523, he is good at such things
13:44:36 <elliott> even though it's not my fault
13:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, <Phantom_Hoover> Surely you can forbid a whole class of FSAs for a TM's control structure and still make a UTM possible?
13:44:52 <ais523> elliott: hmm, an actually correct use of an apology
13:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (In response to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Arbitrary_effect_at_an_arbitrary_point)
13:45:04 <ais523> so many people just say "sorry" whenever anything's blamed on them, without thinking
13:45:20 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Urban_Müller&curid=1305&diff=20668&oldid=12642
13:45:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not entirely sure if the question makes sense
13:45:46 <ais523> elliott: not really, is he famous for anything other than brainfuck?
13:47:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, aminet?
13:47:30 <ais523> hmm, now I will see what YouTube looks like with a stylesheet that !importants out the foreground and background color on every element
13:47:52 <ais523> hmm, a bit bland, but surprisingly readable
13:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY, you can represent an FSA (and hence a TM's control mechanism) as a graph, yes?
13:48:04 <ais523> and the logo looks wrong because it isn't designed to have the background color changed around it
13:48:46 <ais523> but it's not particularly useful if you're trying to solve the wire-crossing problem
13:48:57 <ais523> because you can easily just add extra colors to do crossing wires
13:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the wire-crossing problem is so poorly defined it's pointless.
13:49:15 <ais523> in fact, you can replace any turing machine by a 2-state turing mahine
13:49:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I agree
13:49:30 <ais523> and a 2-state turing machine obviously has a planar control graph
13:54:28 <ais523> elliott: am I crazy for going on a spree to attempt to override the background color of everything in the universe with dark gray?
13:56:03 <elliott> 13:47 ais523: hmm, now I will see what YouTube looks like with a stylesheet that !importants out the foreground and background color on every element
13:56:07 <elliott> ais523: i did that for oklopol to all sites
13:57:00 <ais523> I found that because I use my computer at night so much, and more so recently than before, that anything brighter than dark gray gets annoying
13:57:14 <ais523> atm, I've done the override on Epiphany, but not Firefox
13:57:34 <ais523> (Epiphany's my browser that isn't horribly locked down, for using websites that require Flash)
13:57:45 <elliott> ais523: have you considered using a normal colour scheme with contrast turned down...?
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14:01:00 <j-invariant> http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/twentythree.asp <-- megamoo depits an image of one million (computer) cows
14:01:24 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I'll scale this castle down. 170x170 for the inner courtyard is just too insane :D
14:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Craziness of the day: MediaWiki does not store the diffs between different revisions; it stores the full page text.
14:02:01 <elliott> j-invariant: are they perfectlyspherical?
14:04:46 <elliott> Vorpal: just made a new world and spawned on a ... beach.
14:05:07 <elliott> i think you always spawn on sand
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14:07:31 <elliott> Vorpal: just spawned not on a beach!
14:07:41 <elliott> Vorpal: no, indeed, I've spawned on... a snow-beach.
14:07:43 <elliott> It's sand with snow on top of it.
14:07:47 <elliott> So it's really a beach of sorts.
14:08:46 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that happened once or twice to me as well
14:09:25 <elliott> jmp_buf QQQ_saved_exception_handler = QQQ_exception_handler; if (!setjmp(QQQ_exception_handler)) for (QQQ_flag=1, 0; QQQ_flag; QQQ_flag=0, QQQ_exception_handler = QQQ_saved_exception_handler) { {
14:09:28 <elliott> Now why is this an invalid initialiser...
14:09:42 <elliott> (zzo38 mentioning that C should have try lead me to reinvent that awful hack for exceptions in C.)
14:09:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I HOPE that is generated code?
14:09:59 <elliott> QQQ_ is my totally-unique prefix.
14:10:24 <Vorpal> elliott, qqq stands for?
14:10:45 <elliott> Quite Questionable Qexceptions?
14:11:33 <Vorpal> elliott, err "QQQ_flag=1, 0"?
14:11:45 <elliott> Vorpal: 0 there is just me calling _BLOCK with a dummy first parameter.
14:11:52 <elliott> jmp_buf QQQ_saved_exception_handler = QQQ_exception_handler; \
14:11:52 <elliott> if (!setjmp(QQQ_exception_handler)) _BLOCK(0, _RESTORE) {
14:11:56 <elliott> } else _BLOCK(Exception name = QQQ_exception, _RESTORE)
14:11:59 <elliott> Idea stolen from the actually-working exception in C hack.
14:12:29 <Vorpal> elliott, try clang. It will probably tell you were on the line it finds the error
14:13:02 <elliott> exn.c:55:3: warning: expression result unused [-Wunused-value]
14:14:20 <elliott> exn.c:57:5: error: initializing 'Exception' with an expression of incompatible type 'int'
14:14:24 <elliott> SHOW ME THE PREPROCESSED CODE YOU BASTARD
14:14:37 <Vorpal> elliott, try clang on the preprocessed file?
14:14:46 <elliott> Or just refer to clang -E's output
14:14:56 <elliott> OK, apparently "exn = QQQ_exception" isn't kosher for some reason, I wonder why.
14:15:05 <elliott> Maybe "Exception exn = QQQ_exception, QQQ_flag=1" is parsing wrongly.
14:15:12 <elliott> It probably parses as exn = (...).
14:15:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it thinks you declare QQQ_flag as an Exception
14:16:13 <Vorpal> elliott, the comma operator is not the comma operator in that context
14:16:48 <elliott> Hmm, is there any way to do it then?
14:17:10 <Vorpal> elliott, or saying Exception exn; earlier in the code. That should work
14:17:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Doesn't work; in this case "exn" is the param to CATCH.
14:18:15 <Vorpal> elliott, why not make it expand to { Exception exn; for( ... ); } or such then?
14:18:24 <Deewiant> Exception exn = (QQQ_flag=1, QQQ_exception)
14:18:40 <elliott> The for's body is what appears after the CATCH call.
14:21:22 <Deewiant> Only the Privateer remake that uses its engine
14:21:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, me a bit. Quite fun but feels somewhat unfinished. Not much of a story or such. Too few missions that aren't just generated "pick up x at y and drop it off at z. Expect that faction w might attack you."
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14:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'd play Vegas Trike.
14:26:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You tricycle through Las Vegas.
14:27:45 <quintopia> but first you have to take the desert bus to get that
14:29:16 <fizzie> Desert Trike; just like Desert Bus, except you also have to pedal all the time.
14:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13YlEPwOfmk&feature=player_embedded XD
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14:37:45 <elliott> ais523: please do this: http://phdchallenge.org/announcing-the-2011-phd-challenge
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14:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the 320x320 castle. Should I do it? I will probably need to map edit to get a suitable terrain to put it. (Note this is for single player)
14:42:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Map edit and I'll completely ignore any achievement.
14:42:56 <elliott> Flatten the terrain yourself.
14:43:22 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is not too much work, I have an almost suitable place already
14:43:36 <elliott> MWAHAHAHA MY PLAN TO MAKE VORPAL WORK FOR YEARS IS SUCCEEDING
14:43:38 <Vorpal> elliott, How do you consider inventory editing?
14:43:55 <elliott> (I wouldn't do it in my game at least :P)
14:44:09 <Vorpal> elliott, since it will use stone and not cobble hm.
14:44:18 <elliott> Vorpal: 30 furnaces + bucket of lava to fuel them
14:44:31 <Vorpal> elliott, 30? that's not a lot
14:45:06 <elliott> Vorpal: That'd get you 100 stacks of 64 stone in 17 minutes.
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14:45:14 <elliott> You'd need 64 lava buckets though.
14:46:05 <Vorpal> elliott, 4*(320*15+320*20*2) is just the stone needed for *hollow* outer walls (well corners are counted twice, but still about that amount, probably more due to misplacing and so on)
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14:46:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Using 64 furnaces with lava buckets, that'd only take 11 goes.
14:46:54 <elliott> You'd just leave stuff going while you work (check back on it every 6 to 10 minutes or so to add 36 more cobbles)
14:47:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course, if you have enough coal, you could just use that.
14:47:39 <elliott> Vorpal: A single bucket of lava will allow for smelting of 100 blocks. The largest stack of blocks is 64. Considering that each smelting operation takes 10 seconds, to maximize the efficiency of a lava bucket, place a lava bucket with 64 blocks of unsmelted material (such as sand, cobblestone, etc) and return between 6 minutes and 10 minutes 40 seconds later to remove 36 smelted blocks and insert 36 more unsmelted blocks.
14:48:19 <elliott> 1 lava bucket = 12.5 coal, so it may be more economical just to use coal.
14:48:21 <Vorpal> to hell with this, I'll downscale it a bit
14:48:46 <Vorpal> elliott, actually it would be too large to see the entire thing even on far.
14:49:12 <Vorpal> elliott, better to make it fully visible on far
14:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that the ROU could comfortably be parked there, I'm inclined to agree.
14:52:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not if it's all visible on far
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14:53:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe if you stand right at the start... but not for me.
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14:58:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well the *inner* court yard would have been 170x170. How long is ROU now again?
14:58:57 <elliott> quintopia: Rabbits On Underside.
14:59:19 <elliott> quintopia: Or Rapid Offensive Unit, you decide.
14:59:53 <quintopia> elliott: i was just going to wait until someone else gave an answer
15:01:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am trying to figure out how that Creepy Watson thing even works.
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15:05:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, FS as in?
15:05:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I know of a few games called FS
15:05:30 <fizzie> Heh, that scribblecraft thing sure is funny.
15:05:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no I don't think I did. Might have been on my todo list or such.
15:06:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it do?
15:06:22 <fizzie> It's that hand-drawn style 128x128 texture pack.
15:06:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, blame elliott. For making me play monkey island instead
15:06:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it tile well?
15:07:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, here's my home: http://zem.fi/~fis/scribble.png
15:08:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, the roof window looks strange?
15:08:38 <fizzie> I don't see any roof windows there.
15:08:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the thing in the upper right corner. White
15:09:03 <fizzie> That's the ceiling of the door.
15:09:07 <fizzie> It's very near, so it's a bit blurrey.
15:09:28 <elliott> fizzie: haha that pumpkin looks so happey.
15:09:31 <fizzie> Torches look a bit strange.
15:09:57 <elliott> I've been meaning to try tiling the default textures to 256x256 sometime
15:10:10 <elliott> well, except, things like pumpkins would be just scaled up ofc
15:10:40 <fizzie> Obsidian in scribblecraft looks rather unimpressive. Here's the obsidian road: http://zem.fi/~fis/scribble2.png
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15:11:18 <fizzie> Purpley with little stars.
15:11:54 <fizzie> Not yet. I've seen screenshots. This was the first irregular-sized thing I tried.
15:12:17 <elliott> fizzie: There is actually a 16x Tronic but eh, the 32x is nicer.
15:12:18 <fizzie> It's a bit incomplete; mobs aren't scribbled, for one thing.
15:12:41 <elliott> fizzie: BTW, the instructions on the Tronic page are overcomplicated; all you need to do is check Custom Water and Lava in the HD texture fixer, and then _de-check_ Animated Water and Lava.
15:12:48 <elliott> And you get Tronic's custom water/lava and the animations of those.
15:13:03 <elliott> (Animated Water/Lava actually mean "disregard the texture pack's and use the default". So you have to uncheck them.)
15:13:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, when I finished MI2 and MI3 sure. Why not. Which based on the schedule for the spring will be during the summer
15:13:39 <elliott> fizzie: Although it's pointless to try if you don't have Better Light installed.
15:13:44 <elliott> But everyone should have Better Light installed!
15:13:52 <elliott> Vorpal: MI3 can be completed in less than a day.
15:14:07 <Vorpal> elliott, yes so can MI2 given a walkthrough :P
15:14:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean first time.
15:14:16 <elliott> Maybe two or three days at the most.
15:14:21 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, well MI2 can't be that I know
15:14:33 <elliott> MI2 is a rather difficult game.
15:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I would say MI2 is harder than MI1
15:14:57 <elliott> Tronic's sand looks like fudge.
15:15:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Surely you've completed MI2 by now? Dinky Island is right before the end of the game.
15:15:18 <elliott> Unless you can't get rid of LeChuck.
15:15:20 <Vorpal> elliott, well I haven't had time / felt like playing
15:15:45 <elliott> I should make that Textual Texture Pack Deewiant said. :p
15:15:54 <elliott> WATERWATERWATERWATEROBSIDIANLAVALAVALAVALAVA
15:16:26 <Vorpal> elliott, PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG PIG COW!
15:16:47 <elliott> CREEPERCREEPERCREEPERCREEPER
15:17:00 <Vorpal> ah that has the right number of syllables. Works better
15:17:17 <elliott> TRACKMINECARTTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACK
15:17:22 <elliott> TRACKTRACKMINECARTTRACKTRACKTRACKTRACK
15:20:13 <fizzie> Also, the scribbled sun: http://zem.fi/~fis/scribble3.png
15:20:16 <fizzie> It's not very realistic.
15:25:37 <fizzie> It sounds a bit too actiony.
15:26:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Still not helping with Cube?
15:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, haven't decided
15:30:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: QEWB KOM HALP
15:32:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: CKUBE COMOE HALWEP
15:32:56 <elliott> Vorpal: What is this cobbles.
15:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, ? I'm not online atm. What are you talking about
15:33:54 <elliott> Vorpal: At the bottom left of the cube.
15:34:04 <elliott> There's this cobble thing blocking the way of the drainage, but it's somehow been drained further.
15:34:31 <Vorpal> elliott, oh you mean that early experiment in a different way of draining?
15:34:38 <Vorpal> which turned out to not work very well
15:34:54 <Vorpal> elliott, testing to see how slow draining with buckets was
15:35:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. slow, mostly due to annoying streams
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15:42:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What. The fuck.
15:42:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I respawned inside ... some underground thing, very vertical. There were torches.
15:43:10 <elliott> ineiros: Stop unleashing Cthulhu.
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15:58:07 <nooga> there's no way to make an inexhaustable lava pond
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15:59:43 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I respawned inside ... some underground thing, very vertical. There were torches. <-- figured it out?
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16:09:32 <nooga> all trees on the map are burning
16:10:17 <Vorpal> nooga, might be some lava close by?
16:10:34 <Vorpal> nooga, and it can spread pretty easily then
16:10:57 <Vorpal> nooga, probably not all trees, but all trees in that forest or such
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16:21:25 <elliott> Vorpal: we're opening up some of the drainage platform to the excavation.
16:22:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that old experiment?
16:22:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean the platform where torching is done.
16:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean you started digging down?
16:22:23 <elliott> The first few columns we're opening to excavation.
16:22:30 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, the excavation is only one or two blocks down from that platform.
16:22:42 <elliott> PH fell to bedrock with two towers of gravel just before, and that's on the newest line.
16:22:59 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Well my ISP seems to have issues atm. Google takes 20 seconds to load, when it does. on IRC I get lag spikes every few minutes. And so on.
16:23:20 <elliott> The server seems down right now anyway.
16:23:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes it is just below. Mostly due to TNT messing up the ceiling :P
16:24:06 <Vorpal> elliott, originally I believe the ladder went down far enough to have a safety margin of about 5 blocks below the deepest part of the sea.
16:28:38 <nooga> exploding dick ruined my deathtrap
16:29:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Nightmare fuel of the day: the creeper design is based off a failed pig model.
16:31:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: just mcmaping
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16:42:20 <elliott> oklopol: did you obtain minecraft
16:42:20 <oklopol> well you scared me to death there
16:42:32 <elliott> yeah i'm normally talking ALL THE TIME
16:42:38 <oklopol> no. i'm still playing the version without servering
16:43:00 <elliott> oklopol: ffff buy it you bastard we're working on a 128x128x128 cube
16:43:23 <oklopol> you have usually said something in the five seconds after my join, and often it was not at me
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16:44:07 <elliott> oklopol: also we're doing it in the sea. so we have to clear like 128x128x10 of water.
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16:44:48 <oklopol> i've spent most of my mc time collecting mountains in boxes
16:45:30 <oklopol> although tbh, since one takes about 10 hours, so i've only collected 3 sofar :D
16:46:17 <Sgeo> Water in the ocean isn't infinite?
16:46:36 <oklopol> in second life, there's infinite water
16:47:17 <Sgeo> In Second Life, you can't pick up water and place it elsewhere
16:47:23 <elliott> oklopol: did I mention we're using tnt
16:47:47 <oklopol> i didn't use tnt for the mountains, because i didn't have any sand
16:47:58 <oklopol> after 3 mountains i realized my castle was being build AT THE FUCKING SEASHORTE
16:48:39 <oklopol> i had tons of that black stuff, maybe not enough for the whole mountain, but would've helped a lot still
16:48:45 <elliott> oklopol: did i mention that we have to excavate 128x128x64
16:48:50 <elliott> oklopol: the entire underground
16:48:50 <oklopol> are you giving yourself that tnt?
16:49:01 <elliott> oklopol: no, we duped it with a bug :}
16:49:04 <oklopol> you did not, but i sort of assumed that
16:49:06 <elliott> oklopol: but we're running out
16:49:28 <elliott> oklopol: you could duplicate stacks using a chest
16:49:45 <elliott> oklopol: hopefully ineiros will give us a kit (hMod thing, /kit foo gives you the items in kit foo) with lots of tnt in it to help.
16:50:01 <oklopol> purely academic interest, i usually try to avoid using bugs when they are obvious coding errors
16:50:21 <oklopol> i'm sure that's very unique of me.
16:50:31 <elliott> oklopol: Notch is the worst coder.
16:50:33 <elliott> oklopol: you know why it happened?
16:50:37 <elliott> oklopol: inventory was client-side.
16:50:40 * Sgeo once used a duplication bug in an online game
16:50:45 <elliott> oklopol: clients told the server what inventory they had. and it believed them.
16:50:54 <elliott> oklopol: you could also place any block you wanted, just by having your client tell the server you wanted to place that one.
16:51:03 <Sgeo> Then gave the results to [in-game] poliically important persons
16:51:14 <Sgeo> Trying to increase the wealth of the cities
16:51:31 <elliott> yeah like if i had control of the mints i would print like 1000000000000 dollar bills?
16:51:36 <elliott> because like Sgeo i don't understand economics
16:51:50 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Water in the ocean isn't infinite? <-- it dupes only on top of a solid block
16:52:28 <Sgeo> elliott, did I mention this was many years ago
16:53:05 <oklopol> how do you usually do that kind of stuff? i mean afaiu wow only uses the server as a database, can you cheat it?
16:53:50 <oklopol> maybe i knew this stuff in the past
16:53:52 <elliott> oklopol: cheating happens solely when the server trusts the client and doesn't do computing itself.
16:54:13 <oklopol> but you can't do the computing on the server if there are millions of players
16:54:22 <Sgeo> oklopol, well, in that case I just dropped the object on the ground, then clicked to pick it up multiple times before the server got around to deleting the physical object from the ground
16:54:25 <oklopol> maybe in something like wow
16:54:29 <oklopol> but not in a nontrivial game
16:54:30 <elliott> oklopol: EVE Online runs mostly on a single server
16:54:47 <elliott> (there are other servers but there is only one main one for most of the world)
16:54:54 <elliott> oklopol: ofc this method is expensive.
16:55:43 <j-invariant> I need a way to prove equations automatically
16:55:54 <oklopol> but what if the clients cheat and show the player more than they are supposed to see, like say separate distinct hues of gray more clearly
16:56:10 <oklopol> clearly the server should send the whole stream of pictures rendered
16:56:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: when are you going to finish the tnt
16:56:31 <Sgeo> oklopol, well... it's just a game, cheating isn't the end of the world
16:56:44 <Sgeo> Especially if stopping the cheating amounts to unreasonable measures like that
16:57:19 <Sgeo> Same think with attempting to prevent things like seeing through walls
16:59:39 <Sgeo> "LG: "Weve added internet connections washing machines refrigerators, ovens and robotic cleaners using Wi-Fi technology.""
17:00:05 <Sgeo> Ok, mayybe refrigerators make sense, but for the rest: DEAR GOD WHY
17:00:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there's a charge there?
17:07:51 <oklopol> yeah sorry, i was confused because i have no idea what game this is
17:08:48 <j-invariant> http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
17:09:58 <oklopol> do dragons drop their tail if you scare them
17:13:11 <nooga> what happens if i put lava in a square container and then delete the walls? will it spill?
17:14:20 <Sgeo> nooga, sources of liquids act like an infinite source of flowing liquid
17:14:29 <Sgeo> But there's stil finite amount of source
17:14:39 <Sgeo> (except with water in some cases)
17:14:45 <oklopol> that's like the timeless question of whether a tree will fall if no one's in the forest providing gravity
17:15:19 <oklopol> i didn't actually read the question
17:15:34 <nooga> i'm looking for a way to contain some amount of lava in the center of my trap
17:15:42 <Sgeo> If a tree falls in a forest that's not near any object much larger than itself, does it fall?
17:16:06 <Sgeo> <elliott> Sgeo, die now.
17:17:39 <j-invariant> if two bodies are in a stable gravitational orbit does one move around the other?
17:19:08 <oklopol> let G operate from the right on a set X, then the orbit of an element of x is defined as xG
17:26:45 <olsner> j-invariant: how? basically you write text files in a special format, then there's something called a "Compiler" that transforms your text into instructions the computer understands
17:29:31 <j-invariant> I have a feeling that no programming language could be good enough
17:29:53 <j-invariant> there will always be a point where yo know the limitaions and just so happens.. every program you try to write is pushing against them
17:30:26 <nooga> ttp://i56.tinypic.com/1er9x.png
17:30:35 <nooga> this is my trap (with blocked center)
17:30:58 <nooga> i'd like to hang some lava in the center
17:35:56 <Sgeo> j-invariant is becoming a little me!
17:37:56 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant is intelligent and has a mental age >= 14.
17:46:35 <fizzie> The TTP protocol; for those that consider HTTP too Hyper.
17:47:38 <fizzie> nooga: You could dig all those dry blocks in the middle one deeper, and then fill that pit with lava.
17:47:56 <pikhq> TTP aka postal service.
17:48:04 <fizzie> IIRC the water won't spread any further even if there's a straight drop there.
17:49:35 <fizzie> Put a piece of cactus in there instead, I guess that doesn't destroy drops?
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17:49:49 <nooga> i can;t find cacti
17:50:15 <fizzie> They're everywhere in desers; you could use a map-making proggie to find the nearest desert.
17:51:40 <fizzie> I can't be sure about the "doesn't destroy items" thing, haven't done any traps.
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18:00:39 <Sgeo> http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/fuzzy-logic-0103.html
18:00:50 <Sgeo> How does one go about making a nondeterministic chip?
18:01:01 <Sgeo> Or is it deterministic, but opaque for programming purposes?
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18:02:09 <Sgeo> Good point, but I doubt that that would be smaller and ... actually, I don't know if the article is referring to present day technology or not
18:04:26 * Sgeo goes to read reddit commentshttp://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ewl83/the_surprising_usefulness_of_sloppy_arithmetic/
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18:07:35 <pikhq> How awesome would an SNES demo that uses every special chip be?
18:08:43 <pikhq> elliott: Is that the result of an awesomeness overflow?
18:09:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, you mean, every single chip that can be put in the cartridge?
18:10:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, if so, is that even possible?
18:10:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh wait, it hooks it up to the system bus doesn't it?
18:10:42 <pikhq> Yes, they all hook up to the system bus.
18:10:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, memory mapping?
18:11:07 <Vorpal> or does it use other forms of addressing
18:11:33 <pikhq> Well, except for the S-DD1, which actually hooks into the ROM address lines...
18:12:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: They're memory mapped.
18:12:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, possible issues I see are: 1) running out of memory space and/or IO addresses for all the chipsets 2) is the power supplied enough for all these chipsets? How many amps are the pins rated for?
18:12:43 <pikhq> 1) Shouldn't be an issue.
18:13:15 <pikhq> Except for the S-DD1, they use like 2 or 3 addresses...
18:13:26 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have no idea how game catridges work
18:13:43 <Sgeo> I thought they were something like ROM flash memory
18:13:45 <pikhq> ... Oh, well. I think the Super FX and SA-1 use more than that.
18:14:06 <Sgeo> Computing actually takes place on those?
18:14:30 <pikhq> Though the SA-1 and the Super FX both multiprocessing.
18:14:42 <pikhq> Both *do* multiprocessing.
18:14:46 <elliott> Sgeo: with special chips, yes.
18:15:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: The cartridges for *most* systems are just ROM and maybe a bank switcher, and optionally some Flash or battery-backed RAM.
18:15:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, for SNES that is. I don't think N64 cartridges were quite as capable for example
18:15:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: A handful of systems expose the system bus to the cartridge.
18:16:11 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAX0gJt-aZg
18:16:17 <pikhq> It is *technically* possible to have an SNES cartridge that has its own CPU and *shuts off* the console's CPU.
18:16:32 <pikhq> (while still using the SPC and PPU on the SNES)
18:16:54 <pikhq> And there have been several SNES cartridges that added an additional CPU for the SNES.
18:17:12 <pikhq> Heck, there was even an actual Gameboy-on-a-cartridge for it.
18:25:10 <pikhq> I think the only other system to really do that is the Genesis, though...
18:25:24 <pikhq> (this being how the 32x was implemented.)
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18:29:13 <pikhq> I suppose you *could* do something similar for the Atari 2600.
18:29:34 <pikhq> By having the cartridge do nothing but write into the scanline buffer.
18:30:31 <pikhq> (yes, it had a scanline buffer, not a frame buffer)
18:31:11 <nooga> my trap does not work :|
18:31:45 <nooga> monsters don't get any damage from cacti, dunno why
18:40:50 <nooga> creepers seem to die
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18:55:44 <nooga> skeletons refuse to be hurt from caci
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19:09:15 * Sgeo_ watches a faked house on fire vid
19:09:32 <Sgeo_> Well, not faked, but it's clearly an attempt at a recreation of
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19:16:15 <Sgeo_> Poor guy loses his house on YouTube, and people JUST have to make fun of him because he's an idiot
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19:24:34 <Sgeo_> pumpkin, houses can be rebuilt
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19:24:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: why do not stop the water
19:25:14 <elliott> oklopol: did you blow up a shitload of tnt or something
19:26:37 <Sgeo_> elliott, is it just my imagination, or are you being incoherent?
19:27:28 <Sgeo_> For some reason, I was wrongy filtering out nicks
19:27:39 <Sgeo_> why do not stop the water did he confirm/deny
19:27:54 <fizzie> It's a bit spillover from the game-chat, so it's hard to follow perhaps.
19:28:16 <Sgeo_> #xkcd-minecraft has a chat bridge
19:28:21 <variable> unnecessary compiler in Haskel :-}
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19:33:20 <fizzie> I think there's some hMod plugin for an IRC/chat channel gateway. (And of course a client-based one would be easy too.)
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19:36:27 <variable> fizzie, yes - I was missing a single l :-}
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19:41:45 <Sgeo_> Do people accidentally burn down houses in MC often?
19:42:15 <fizzie> Forests more often, I think.
19:42:16 <Sgeo_> Any house that I build is likely to be about as "creative" as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQvYJfgv2Y4
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19:48:09 <zzo38_____> j-invariant: You cannot kill the dragons (the other dragon took away everything you need to do so).
19:48:32 <zzo38_____> But you can use the rule about walking out of the edges of the board, to your advantage, in this situation.
19:51:47 <Sgeo_> Another important rule: Don't set up a fireplace if your house is made of wood and you don't know what you're doing
19:53:11 <Sgeo_> How far away does the flame need to be from anything flammable?
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19:53:58 <zzo38_____> It is possible to block the door so that it won't close. Also, dragons are allowed to move into lava but it is difficult to see due to red color.
19:54:47 <zzo38_____> And if the door doesn't close, you can walk back and forth between those two boards and step in occupied spaces.
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20:00:48 <fizzie> Sgeo_: I don't know the rules, but the fireplace I have in my house is three blocks away sideways (and two above) the wooden floorboards.
20:01:06 <fizzie> (In the bunker I also have wooden fences directly next to a fire, but I don't know if wooden fences are flammable.)
20:02:34 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:02:50 <fizzie> There seems to be a demand for an istheesotericminecraftserverdownornot.com.
20:02:51 -!- zzo38_____ has quit (Quit: But don't kill BIG_MONSTER.).
20:03:27 <pikhq> Republican legislators in 5 different states are trying to pass laws that would "cancel automatic United States citizenship for the American-born children of illegal immigrants."
20:03:59 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:04:10 <pikhq> I was unaware that states had the power to define citizenship even under very strict interpretations of the Constitution.
20:04:50 <pikhq> In fact, I could've sworn that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
20:04:52 -!- elliott has joined.
20:05:06 <pikhq> (source: 14th amendment, US Constitution)
20:05:06 <coppro> pikhq: no you misunderstand
20:05:25 <coppro> you forgot the 2001st Republican Amendment
20:05:36 <coppro> the one that redefines the US constitution as toilet paper
20:05:38 <pikhq> Ah, right, the one that says "FUCK YOU"
20:05:50 <pikhq> I completely forgot about the "FUCK YOU" clause.
20:06:06 <coppro> see, you should read these things more often
20:10:00 <coppro> on the other hand, NJ is attempting to ban full-body scanners and patdowns
20:10:07 <coppro> suddenoutbreakofcommonsense
20:10:36 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (In the bunker I also have wooden fences directly next to a fire, but I don't know if wooden fences are flammable.) <-- I don't think so. I used them next to lava
20:10:49 <Vorpal> as in, a barrier for the lava
20:11:20 <elliott> Vorpal: oi, get to the cube, oklopol is helping
20:11:26 <elliott> and we're connecting with excavation
20:12:13 <elliott> Sgeo_: so go and get a debit card.
20:13:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I still have fucked up connection
20:13:13 <elliott> Vorpal: oklopol is playing from a 3g stick.
20:13:53 <Sgeo_> Would it be too annoying to use a touchpad in MC?
20:14:01 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, I get lag spikes like 50 seconds every few minutes. Against everything. If not working tomorrow I will call the ISP.
20:14:09 <Vorpal> since tracepath indicates it is on their network
20:14:12 <Sgeo_> Also: Small houses don't need lighting, do they?
20:14:13 <elliott> Vorpal: oklopol is playing on zero to ten fps.
20:14:15 <Vorpal> (it is closed this time of day)
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20:14:26 <Vorpal> elliott, since when was I him?
20:15:36 <Sgeo_> 10fps! That's like what I used to get in SL
20:15:45 <Sgeo_> Ah, fucked up times
20:17:34 <elliott> Vorpal: donate some gravel/sand then, we're on critically low supplies
20:22:20 <Sgeo_> WTF is gravel for?
20:22:52 <Sgeo_> Yay gravity-obedient structures?
20:22:54 <Deewiant> Have you cleared all the gravel from all the chests by the railway?
20:27:40 <elliott> Deewiant: We're raiding it now. BTW, you should totes come help out.
20:30:47 <elliott> Deewiant: yo i can't see anychests
20:31:59 <elliott> Deewiant: no show me to them :D
20:32:12 <Deewiant> I don't remember where they are, they're just by the track
20:32:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Filled with a whole 9 gravel and lots of cobble.
20:32:45 <Deewiant> Yes, most of it will be cobble.
20:33:04 <elliott> Deewiant: ok let me get this straight: there is more than 512 gravel we're talking about here, yes?
20:34:46 <Deewiant> Probably not that much, but there might be a few hundred
20:35:11 <Deewiant> I didn't exactly count what came up.
20:35:51 <Deewiant> And anything and everything may have been pilfered since the digging, of course. :-P
20:36:08 -!- hiato has joined.
20:38:02 <hiato> nice to see that you're still alive, ehird
20:38:59 <hiato> bleh, cant seem to get to voxelperfect atm, host name blah blah
20:39:17 <elliott> so you will never get there
20:39:18 <oerjan> hiato: use esolangs.org
20:39:30 <hiato> whoa, seriously? Heh, damn
20:40:42 <elliott> Deewiant: so will you help construct the cube :P
20:40:47 <elliott> hiato: have you been addicted to minecraft yet
20:41:10 <Deewiant> I've been there a bit but not much
20:41:24 <elliott> Deewiant: there = the cube?
20:42:06 <hiato> elliott: yes, it killed my exams. Famous last words: "I'll only play minecraft for a couple of minutes."
20:42:15 <elliott> hiato: YOU SHOULD PLAY ON OUR SERVER
20:42:41 <elliott> hiato: um ask ineiros he officially handles non-Finnish administrations
20:42:45 <elliott> (Finns get in automatically)
20:43:00 <elliott> (thanks to Finn Privilege)
20:43:24 <elliott> ineiros, fizzie, Vorpal, me, Phantom_Hoover, Deewiant, and oklopol are on it
20:43:30 <elliott> also technically Gracenotes but he never comes on
20:43:34 <hiato> ineiros: So, I'm not Finnish, but I think we can work things out. May I play on the minecraft server
20:44:10 <hiato> so oerjan is above minecraft then? :P
20:44:18 <elliott> hiato: you _may_ have to get a face transplant from a Finn btw
20:44:52 <elliott> hiato: oh, and we're wimps, so there's no monsters or health. the fact that we have a high-up transportation system in the sky might have something to do with it too
20:44:56 <hiato> elliott: this I can live with. But, I forsee terrible puns. "You got a face transplant, oh, yeah, he didn't finnish"
20:45:12 <elliott> "I think it gives my face a nice finnish."
20:45:14 <hiato> I would like to see this
20:45:38 <elliott> hiato: Right now we're working on draining the sea and excavating down to bedrock so we can build a 128x128x128 cube. Out of glass
20:46:32 <hiato> That is way. too. cool. Though, I imagine you're not nearly 1/83494th into it
20:46:43 <elliott> hiato: we've drained like 7 to 10 lines of sea so far :P
20:46:50 <elliott> hiato: and have excavated a few pits down to bedrock
20:46:53 <elliott> but yeah, it needs more manpower.
20:47:11 <elliott> hiato: we do have multiple stacks of TNT. but they're running out :D
20:47:12 <hiato> which I am happy to provide
20:47:19 <elliott> (thanks, item duplication bug!)
20:47:46 <elliott> but we'll see if the server can't provide us with some tnt. :p
20:47:56 <elliott> hiato: btw this is going to take something like 100k glass :D
20:48:15 <hiato> elliott: no, we do it the navvy way. Spades and picks
20:48:26 <nooga> i tried to leave spawn point and went far into the sea
20:48:31 <elliott> hiato: no, we're clearing the water with gravel and sand
20:48:45 <nooga> and after 10 minutes i saw my own base
20:49:11 <hiato> Sheesh, you guys have too much time. If only I had known sooner, I wouldn't have had that same problem
20:49:12 <nooga> there's this effect on real desert
20:49:38 <nooga> when you think that you're going straight and in fact you're running in circles
20:50:03 <elliott> hiato: btw i dreamed up this cube ... and also built a previous project which is two stairs from bedrock to top altitude (never finished)
20:50:03 <nooga> i'm trying fo find a desert or plains
20:50:09 <olsner> because no-one's legs are equally long, supposedly
20:50:11 <elliott> i _may_ be slightly crazy for a megascale engineer
20:50:24 <elliott> olsner: how's that relevant
20:50:28 <hiato> elliott: just a tad.
20:51:04 <olsner> elliott: because it's the cause of the effect nooga talked about
20:51:54 <nooga> now i've got my desert
20:52:36 <hiato> elliott: what ever happened to that pascal redux of yours?
20:56:05 <elliott> hiato: i don't remember finishing it :D
20:56:22 <oerjan> <nooga> when you think that you're going straight and in fact you're running in circles <-- isn't that a bit hard to achieve in a game afaik based on rectangular blocks?
20:56:42 <hiato> oerjan: "22:49 < olsner> because no-one's legs are equally long, supposedly" :P
20:57:12 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: boat-see warship or star wars? That effects the awesomeness of the project, so answer carefully
20:57:16 <elliott> oerjan: you can move in any direction
20:57:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oklopol, tell me when you've used up the gravel and have collected all of the torched columns.
20:58:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: umm, I'm terrible at torching.
20:58:18 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: +17EXP. Nice, that sounds pretty cool
20:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, but I've torched several columns already.
20:58:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how about we finish this column and do another one and then you come and torch them
20:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato, turns out that laying the hull on a 200-metre long ellipsoid is very boring.
21:00:08 <hiato> man I just wanna get into this server
21:02:24 <oerjan> idle : 2 days 3 hours 48 mins 50 secs
21:02:46 <oerjan> not immensely promising, that
21:03:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:04:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: almost out.
21:04:38 <elliott> oerjan: he never talks. :p
21:05:14 <oerjan> ye olde telepathic alien
21:29:43 <Deewiant> Well I got in and now I'm falling at y = -2800
21:30:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Chunk loading error lol
21:30:48 <oklopol> i found a marvelous beach but probably not far enough yet
21:31:01 <Deewiant> Yeah, I know what it is I was just hoping it'd eventually load the chunk and bump me back up
21:31:12 <elliott> oklopol: you're online again?
21:31:19 <elliott> oklopol: also haven't you been walking for like 10 minutes, and passed through a large forest
21:31:32 <oklopol> i passed through a large forest
21:31:39 <elliott> oklopol: it's probably fine then :P
21:31:44 <oklopol> but i haven't actually been walking for 10 minutes, since with my lag, i walk half the time
21:31:58 <oklopol> and half the time i'm disoriented, or waiting for walking to start
21:32:07 <elliott> oklopol: i'd wait until you hit upon a desert
21:32:07 <oklopol> i just know it's marvelous
21:32:22 <elliott> oklopol: in fact the land you started on was desert biome
21:35:56 <Vorpal> elliott, that castle. marked up outer walls. However it is in a forest. I cleared out the future interior of the outer walls (7 thick) from anything burnable. This will be epic
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22:00:26 <cheater99> you know, the guy who came in here asking for the exact command to install... wait what again?
22:01:00 <elliott> and it was orca or something
22:01:46 <cheater99> i think he won't be coming here asking ubuntu tech support questions so quickly
22:03:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:05:01 -!- variable has joined.
22:05:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:17:36 <fizzie> Coincidentally, for mcmap users: I pushed (a while ago, in fact) a bit experimental opengl branch, which does the map-drawing (and scaling) with opengl. It looks approximately the same and might easily have a few bugs more.
22:33:07 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:38:32 <oklopol> suddenly, there was no minecraft
22:39:41 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
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22:41:01 <elliott> fizzie: OpenGL does scaling really badly
22:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, while I'm disconnected I might as well update mcmap.
22:41:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: an experimental branch
22:41:43 <elliott> hiato: ok so "make" should do compiling fine if you have the libs
22:41:54 <elliott> hiato: then _build/mcmap a322.org:25566 but you probably want options
22:42:12 <elliott> hiato: -x N scales every block times N, -s WxH shows WxH blocks at a time on the ma p window
22:42:16 <hiato> right, yeah, investigating
22:42:20 <elliott> hiato: or if you want no map, just pass -m
22:42:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: page-up/page-down makes block-size one pixel larger/smaller.
22:42:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: scaling is just pgup/pgdown.
22:42:37 <elliott> or -x N on the command line
22:42:49 <elliott> hiato: anyway, once you start it, you connect to 127.0.0.1 in minecraft
22:42:55 <fizzie> elliott: It's scaled in the GL_NEAREST mode, so it's just the same as the SDL scaling.
22:43:05 <fizzie> No bilinear filtering or anything.
22:43:09 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm. Is there any reason to use OpenGL?
22:43:24 <elliott> fizzie: Is the code shorter or longer? :p
22:44:04 <fizzie> A bit longer, but that's mostly because there's an additional layer of complexity; I render in 4x4 chunk regions into 64x64 textures and draw those on quads.
22:44:22 <fizzie> It'd be shorter for a simpler 16x16 textures, one per block, approach.
22:44:38 <fizzie> The drawing itself is shorter, I think.
22:45:12 <fizzie> I think the player-direction-indicator might be more accurate there. (But it's still quantized not to cause redraws for all mouse movements.)
22:45:25 <elliott> fizzie: I say stick with SDL ...
22:45:31 <fizzie> Yes, it's a bit pointless.
22:45:45 <fizzie> It still uses SDL for input handling, anyway.
22:45:49 <hiato> hmm, it cant seem to connect
22:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, do you actually have any plans for large-scale release of this?
22:46:02 <elliott> hiato: how did you start mcmap?
22:46:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I hope not, not with //goto.
22:46:09 <hiato> ./_build/mcmap a322.org:25566
22:46:20 <elliott> hiato: did you connect with minecraft?
22:46:52 <hiato> I mean, mcmap cant connect, or at least, hasn't said anything beyond waiting for connection
22:47:05 <fizzie> It's "waiting for connection" when it waits for you to connect to it.
22:47:09 <elliott> hiato: you have to connect to it first
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22:59:21 <hiato> Yeah, I figured as much
23:00:14 <oklopol> it has come to my attention
23:00:33 <elliott> hiato: oklopol: the server runs on the highly reliable, fast platform of "a spare computer in ineiros' house hooked up to his cable connection".
23:00:44 <oklopol> subsequently, i have pressed the disconnect button, and am currently not able to get in.
23:00:51 <hiato> good to know our work is in safe hands
23:01:03 <elliott> hiato: apparently backups are even AUTOMATIC now
23:01:19 <hiato> Hoorah for technology.
23:01:39 <hiato> and wit that, I must leave you all. Early (ish) morning »»», cheers
23:02:43 <elliott> fizzie: oklopol demands an mcmap windows binary now
23:03:44 <fizzie> elliott: I'm just building one, as it happens.
23:05:06 <hiato> oh, and by the way, thanks all for that, was rather fun.
23:05:08 <fizzie> In fact, the only thing that's missing is getting glib's option-parsing parse the single-string WinMain command line. (Unless if there's some mingw flag that makes it use a "traditional-style" main instead of WinMain.)
23:05:19 <elliott> fizzie: Will the ansi colours work? :p
23:05:22 <elliott> hiato: np, hope to see you again :)
23:05:24 <hiato> and thanks elliott for helping me crack the ip
23:05:38 <hiato> tomorrow is another day, I expect
23:05:41 <fizzie> elliott: I really don't think they will, and neither will the readline input, in fact.
23:05:41 <elliott> fizzie: um i think you can just use main()
23:05:48 <elliott> fizzie: since it's a regular "libc"
23:05:54 <elliott> also, i know there's readline for windows...
23:06:08 <fizzie> I tried to use main, but it insists on having a WinMain when linked, even without the "make a GUI app" -mwindows flag.
23:06:27 <elliott> fizzie: strtok or whatever then.
23:06:54 <elliott> Just write a normal C program with main(int argc, char **argv), and
23:06:55 <elliott> then for full Unicode file names use wchar_t strings and the wide char
23:06:55 <elliott> versions of the Win32 API explicitly.
23:06:59 <elliott> fizzie: Clearly main() works.
23:07:14 <fizzie> /usr/lib/gcc/i586-mingw32msvc/4.4.4/../../../../i586-mingw32msvc/lib/libmingw32.a(main.o):(.text+0x85): undefined reference to `_WinMain@16'
23:07:18 <elliott> fizzie: What command line?
23:07:35 <fizzie> i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o mcmap [list of .os] [list of libs]
23:07:50 <fizzie> Maybe it should be mcmap.exe, actually, but anyhow.
23:09:22 <elliott> fizzie: Statically linking perchance?
23:10:29 <fizzie> Meh, the prebuild mingw dev packages for SDL and glib only have DLL link-stubs. Anyway, I'll just g_strsplit, and wonder about that later.
23:10:50 <elliott> Because googling suggests that might be problematic.
23:11:55 <fizzie> A "console" app should use the normal main; maybe I'm just using the wrong flag for that.
23:12:14 <elliott> fizzie: are you sure -mwindows won't help here
23:12:52 <fizzie> Pretty sure; that's what supposed to turn it from console app mode to GUI app mode, which definitely uses a WinMain.
23:18:06 <fizzie> It will need some DLLs to run, I think.
23:18:22 <elliott> fizzie: Zip 'em up? oklopol is supremely lazy.
23:18:38 <fizzie> I guess I will. A moment more.
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23:22:45 <elliott> fizzie: Oklupdate: he's in a hole.
23:23:22 <fizzie> GRAA froggin glib, it wants also gettext and zlib runtimes. (I linked zlib in statically in mcmap, but, well, apparently that was pretty useless.)
23:24:10 <fizzie> At least GTK folks package those up for me; combining.
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23:27:19 <fizzie> mcmap.exe [OPTION...] host[:port]
23:27:26 <fizzie> Let's see if it actually does work.
23:28:37 <fizzie> Well, it said "starting up", made a window, then hung up...
23:28:52 <fizzie> Of course that might be just a Wine thing.
23:29:00 <elliott> fizzie: Try it with nomap?
23:29:41 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:29:52 <fizzie> But that seems to be about it.
23:29:59 <fizzie> Maybe //coords wasn't a good idea, though.
23:30:08 -!- azaq231 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:31:17 <fizzie> It connected, worked, then crashed when I //goto'ed to 100 100 in order to test it.
23:31:29 <fizzie> GLib-GIO:ERROR:gsocket.c:2347:remove_condition_watch: assertion failed: (g_list_find (socket->priv->requested_conditions, condition) != NULL)
23:31:29 <fizzie> err:mmtime:TIME_MMTimeStop Timer still active?!
23:31:36 <fizzie> This all could be more Wine things, of course.
23:32:14 <fizzie> oklopol: If you want to try, http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win.zip -- I'd give it about 8% odds of actually working.
23:33:22 <fizzie> Unzip to a folder, then open a command prompt there and run "mcmap -m serverhost:port" for the more-likely-to-work nomap mode.
23:33:28 <elliott> oklopol: did it actually work.
23:33:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ^^ //goto time
23:33:47 <fizzie> Also, I guess I shouldn't bother censorshipping the host:port since elliott already blabbed it on-channel.
23:34:08 <fizzie> <elliott> hiato: then _build/mcmap a322.org:25566 but you probably want options
23:34:15 <elliott> fizzie: he said it before me.
23:34:27 <elliott> fizzie: it's been mentioned like 5 times now.
23:34:37 <fizzie> Well, the CAT's out of the BAG, anyhow.
23:36:25 <fizzie> I guess ineiros can always go to the whitelist-based approach for server administratamation.
23:36:34 <fizzie> Incidentally, "Bukkit will be superseding hMod. Once Bukkit is ready, hMod will no longer be updated."
23:36:53 <fizzie> "I no longer have an interest in Minecraft, so this change is for the best."
23:37:27 <oerjan> MWAHAHAHA NOW I KNOW YOUR SERVER
23:37:37 <elliott> oerjan: but... you have Norw Privilege.
23:37:55 <elliott> fizzie: hey0 seems to be rather ... fed up with minecrafters
23:37:59 <fizzie> Minecraft scene is so lively; people get into the "no longer have an interest" phase already, and the game has just barely reached (official) "beta".
23:38:56 <elliott> fizzie: I think it's code for "I hate you motherfuckers".
23:39:06 <elliott> fizzie: He stopped reading and posting to the hMod thread on minecraftforums, after all.
23:40:14 <fizzie> Bukkit project seems to be at least more enterprisey, which is always a good thing.
23:40:17 <elliott> fizzie: Update: oklopol has somehow managed to get to Wonders of the World by accident.
23:40:25 <elliott> fizzie: He started west of the Cube.
23:40:29 <elliott> fizzie: Then tried to get back.
23:40:35 <elliott> Apparently this meant he ended up in the far north.
23:40:37 <fizzie> They have buzzwordy paragraph headings and all in the description.
23:42:07 <fizzie> "performance, ease-of-use, extreme customisability and better communication between the Team and, you, our users" "unique perspective and advantage" "integrated plugin management system" "philosophy of caring for our community and our users" ...
23:42:52 <fizzie> And, well, oklopol's always been a real go-getter, I'm not surprised he got all the way to the North.
23:43:43 <elliott> fizzie: He must have walked around the cube in a gigantic circle.
23:49:45 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[food].
23:49:58 <elliott> oerjan: please tell me you actually play mc
23:52:05 <fizzie> That sounds hilariously unlikely.
23:52:58 <elliott> my brain would be permanently confused
23:53:13 <fizzie> Sure, and after all oko does too, and *his* nick starts with an o also.
23:53:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:54 <ais523> hmm, oerjan and oklopol start with the same letter?
23:55:26 <elliott> ais523: do YOU play minecraft
23:55:29 <ais523> gah, don't make me URLencode those os to see if they're both the same
23:55:41 <ais523> don't want to pay for it, and don't want to pirate it either
23:55:46 <fizzie> And 0["oerjan"] == 'o'.
23:56:20 <elliott> ais523: also want time left in day to do things? :P
23:56:56 <elliott> ais523: minecraft eats up all free time.
23:57:03 <elliott> like WoW, but actually fun
23:57:06 <ais523> I have other things to eat up my free time
23:57:17 <ais523> which are also actually fun, but not /that/ similar to WoW
23:57:30 <ais523> I wrote a new Enigma level this morning, for instance, and spent over 4 hours solving it
23:57:33 <ais523> as I was thinking about it the wrong way
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23:59:42 -!- augur[food] has changed nick to augur.
00:01:16 <elliott> oklopol: WHY DID YOU GO IN THERE AGAIN
00:01:19 <elliott> oklopol: climb up the stairs
00:01:33 <oklopol> well i figured it's faster to go from there than walk to spawn
00:01:44 <elliott> but falling in it does not help
00:01:46 <oklopol> well, that's why i went there
00:01:56 <oklopol> i was walking on the tracks
00:02:02 <oklopol> and noticed the entrance to ineiros' hole
00:10:24 <elliott> oklopol: be there in a second
00:15:07 <variable> Learn you a Haskell is amazing
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00:22:14 <elliott> fizzie: Can you please give oklopol a lesson in basic navigation. He is worse at it than me.
00:22:50 <elliott> fizzie: Or at least, I don't believe I could be within short-(or-maybe-normal)-viewing-range of the cube, go into the sea right next to it, claim to see nothing, and then become completely out of sight for someone on far 30 seconds later.
00:23:15 <elliott> and i'm terrible at navigation
00:26:09 <fizzie> I'm not the guy to ask, since I'd lose my own head without having it shown on a mcmap window.
00:27:25 <elliott> oklopol: is it down again.
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00:58:16 <elliott> oklopol: is it down again?
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01:30:11 <Vorpal> elliott, is it possible to change mcmap from using // to something else? I was going to try out this hmod plugin on my local test server: http://forum.hey0.net/showthread.php?tid=94
01:30:36 <elliott> Perfectly possible but I like // and I'm not changing it. Grep the source or convince fizzie. :p
01:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I assume it is just one place to change it? Some define or such
01:31:12 <Vorpal> elliott, if not I could make a patch that makes it just a define to change it. Would you accept that?
01:31:23 <elliott> i wouldn't, but fizzie might. i certainly wouldn't like it if the usage messages
01:31:26 <elliott> got a hideous define in them
01:31:41 <elliott> Code/mcmap/main.c: && p->bytes[3] == '/' && p->bytes[4] == '/')
01:31:41 <elliott> Code/mcmap/world.c:if (t >= 3 && p[0] == '/' && p[1] == '/')
01:31:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well what about a command line option then
01:31:44 <elliott> those are the two places to change.
01:31:50 <elliott> making that a strcmp would be irritating.
01:32:17 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't need to be strcmp. The first char would always be /. It would just be a case of changing the second char
01:32:32 <elliott> but what if I wanted my prefix to be "^å"?
01:32:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and I agree that // is a good default.
01:32:53 <Vorpal> elliott, then you could patch the source. / is very commandy after all :)
01:33:08 <elliott> Vorpal: if it was just a define to change the second char, and you left the usage messages saying //foo no matter what to simplify the code, sure, i'd apply it
01:33:24 <Vorpal> elliott, the messages, aren't they just strings
01:33:27 <elliott> have you got any spare torches? ph has ours in his inventory i think and we need to torch sand.
01:33:30 <Vorpal> hm wait you would need to stringify
01:33:34 <Vorpal> that would be annoying
01:33:51 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like a bad idea ;P
01:34:00 <elliott> Vorpal: got any spare torches?
01:34:07 <Vorpal> any #define char sounds bad
01:34:16 <elliott> Vorpal: to use for torching.
01:34:30 <elliott> you can have them back when ph gives us our torches back.
01:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well no, I carry the raw resources around. I don't carry more than a handful of actual torches
01:35:00 <Vorpal> but I can't login atm. elliott you can have them tomorrow
01:35:11 <elliott> Vorpal: right, well, it's kind of a pressing need.
01:35:13 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, surely you found a shitload of coal by now?
01:35:22 <elliott> Vorpal: uh why i've been working on the cube
01:35:32 <Vorpal> elliott, when digging below it?
01:35:50 <elliott> excavation is on hold until tnt kit anyway
01:35:54 <Sgeo_> Ecological practices would eliminate your need for coal!
01:36:10 <elliott> Sgeo_: got a better way to remove long columns of gravel/sand?
01:36:27 <Vorpal> elliott, but this makes no sense. those are reused
01:36:35 <elliott> Vorpal: ph has them in his inventory, as i said.
01:36:43 <Vorpal> elliott, tell him to hand it back?
01:36:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I get route not found :P
01:36:59 <Vorpal> elliott, my internet *is* screwed up
01:37:02 <elliott> have you tried in the last hour
01:37:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried after you asked me
01:37:12 <Sgeo_> elliott, how do you use coal to do that?
01:37:17 <Vorpal> elliott, like 2 minutes ago
01:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway don't you have a stack of coal and a stack of logs in your inventory?
01:38:21 * Vorpal decides to use /7 for mcmap
01:39:02 <Sgeo_> "**Torches can be placed on the block if fast graphics is on. Switching to fast graphics, placing the torch and then switching back to fancy will not remove the torch.
01:39:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, it can be placed on leaves in both now I think
01:39:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, that bit should be updated
01:39:47 <Sgeo_> Why was there ever a difference?
01:39:52 <Sgeo_> Notch quality coding/
01:39:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, handled as glass
01:40:14 <elliott> Sgeo_: buy the fucking game and come do our drudge work for us
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01:46:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I first parsed that as "fucking-game"
01:46:21 <Sgeo_> Vorpal's turning into me!
01:46:26 <elliott> "do all the fucking for us, we'll handle the interesting stuff"
01:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, i didn't get that far before backtracking though :P
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01:58:21 <oklopol> can one of my female buddies come on the server
02:01:06 <oklopol> that's who i'm asking mainly
02:02:30 <fizzie> Be prepared to wait a while for the answer, also.
02:03:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
02:37:01 <oklopol> fizzie: stopped playing already
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03:11:43 <Gregor> PHRASE O' THE DAY: "Spices is arsenic, dude!"
03:15:38 <oerjan> ...is there some reference i'm not getting :D
03:17:16 <pikhq> oerjan: No, it's just freaking hilarious and winsome.
03:22:35 <Gregor> It is a reference, but it's way too "in-joke" to just me and some people in PDX :P
03:24:05 <oerjan> "PDX can refer to Portland, Oregon"
03:24:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls Gregor is from there but swats him for the obscure acronym nevertheless -----###
03:24:57 <Gregor> It's not an acronym, it's an international airport code :P
03:26:37 <pikhq> oerjan: But it doesn't expand to anything.
03:26:55 <pikhq> It's just a pointer to the airport in Portland, Oregon.
03:27:02 <Sgeo_> Gregor, and other people who've seen your Facebook statuses?
03:27:13 <pikhq> Gregor: Even without the in-joke-ness, it's pretty winsome. So.
03:27:17 <Vorpal> <Gregor> It's not an acronym, it's an international airport code :P <-- no?
03:27:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, the international ones are 4-letters
03:29:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: There's multiple airport codes, and multiple international airport codes.
03:29:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is the widely used one
03:29:23 * Sgeo_ wants to play Minecraft multiplayer NAO
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03:29:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: IATA is also an international airport code that is widely used.
03:29:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: And Portland has PDX.
03:29:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, "Most countries use ICAO codes, not IATA codes, in their official aeronautical publications."
03:30:16 <pikhq> The US, to be contrary, uses its own.
03:30:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, thus I forgotten about IATA because you never see it used widely
03:30:56 <pikhq> Most of the time, but not always, it's identical to the IATA code, but the FAA code is completely distinct.
03:31:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, ICAO is way way more common than IATA
03:32:57 <pikhq> Except in the US, where FAA which is usually identical to IATA is more common.
03:33:03 <pikhq> Because we hate you.
03:33:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, not for international flights though :P
03:33:42 <pikhq> I don't remember the flight codes used on my last international flight, so I can't say.
03:34:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, I meant for navigation and so on. I don't care about luggage :P
03:34:38 <pikhq> Well, for navigation... English is the used language. Because we hate you. :P
03:34:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, well it is in many fields
03:35:06 <pikhq> OUR HATRED IS VAST!
03:35:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, ta det språk som jag använde nyss till exempel.
03:35:55 <Vorpal> (try google translate, it will probably be hilarious)
03:36:00 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ewr1a/so_i_have_a_new_way_to_play_minecraft/c1bkh2k
03:36:44 <pikhq> Take the language that I used recently for example. English again. And so on!
03:36:59 <pikhq> That is astoundingly close to being comprehensible.
03:37:28 <pikhq> I bet machine translation between Germanic languages is easier than the general case.
03:38:14 <Vorpal> <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ewr1a/so_i_have_a_new_way_to_play_minecraft/c1bkh2k <-- tried that on smaller scale
03:38:23 <variable> pikhq, not necc. using google's algorithms
03:38:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, as in, a few minutes in nether and then 4-5 hours to trek home
03:38:42 <variable> pikhq, for most language parsing based translators you would be right
03:38:54 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, 4-5 HOURS?
03:38:56 <variable> but Google does not parse the language in order to translae
03:39:00 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Take the language that I used recently for example. English again. And so on! <-- quite indeed
03:39:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, it made perfect sense
03:39:20 <pikhq> variable: Presumably because even just naively "translating" the words verbatim would get you in the ballpark.
03:39:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, yes. There was a huge lake in the way and some pretty sights. And the terrain was very uneven.
03:39:48 <variable> pikhq, I read a few whitepapers on how google does translation
03:39:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I could probably have managed 1-2 hours if I had rushed
03:40:03 <pikhq> Ah, yeah, Google's is statistical based on its crawling, isn't it?
03:40:28 <variable> they take "known good" translations (such as wikipedia)
03:41:03 <variable> and use some very interesting models to figure out which _phrases_ translate roughly to other phrases
03:41:18 <variable> ie: google does NOT know which words are nouns and which verbs
03:41:53 <pikhq> And that's why you get hilarious translations from it sometimes.
03:42:00 <pikhq> IIRC something like Venice → New York.
03:42:34 <variable> pikhq, one of the funniest things to do is to translate from Eng -> French -> Eng -> French -> Eng ...
03:42:48 <Vorpal> variable, leads to curios results sometimes. Such as "the official denied any knowledge of" turning into "the official denied not knowing anything about" (approx) once when I translated from Norwegian to Swedish.
03:43:25 <Vorpal> variable, and that was not iterative
03:43:59 <variable> Vorpal, you can "correct" the translations and over time Google will learn the new phrases
03:44:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, other known ones: inch -> cm. TT -> AP (TT is a Swedish news agency, AP is a completely different one)
03:44:46 <variable> because google doesn't know what it is translating
03:45:00 <Vorpal> variable, now I just hope they don't do sv:mil -> en:mile. Because a Swedish mile is 10 km
03:45:02 <variable> it only knows that the two phrases occur at the right places in multiple documents
03:45:27 <Vorpal> which is even more off than km
03:45:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: That probably depends on time period.
03:45:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh, length of mile
03:45:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, I meant modern mile
03:46:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, as you might say "it is 10 mile to that city" or such
03:46:16 <oerjan> `translatefromto no sv Tjenestemannen benektet ethvert kjennskap til
03:46:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, hackego not here
03:46:36 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, the traditional Swedish mil unit was actually close to 10 km.
03:46:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, possibly. I'm no history expert.
03:47:00 <pikhq> According to Wikipedia, that is.
03:47:15 <pikhq> variable: Yeah, Ørjan.
03:47:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, but a modern Swedish mil is 10 km
03:47:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Instead of 10,688 m.
03:47:43 <oerjan> variable: that was just attempting to reconstruct Vorpal's example
03:47:44 <pikhq> (11,295 m in Norway)
03:47:46 <variable> oerjan, how do you pronounce ø ?
03:47:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, there were different mil iirc
03:47:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, like, for different purposes
03:48:10 <pikhq> That was the, ah, "land mile" or "long mile".
03:48:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, travel by coach-mil I think?
03:48:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, vs. a few other land ones
03:48:30 <variable> oerjan, if you can give me a good recording to listen to that would be awesome!
03:48:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: I bet you had stuff like the nautical mile as well, and of course the statue mile.
03:48:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, statue, could be it
03:48:46 <variable> also - anyone here speak Persian ?
03:48:49 <oerjan> variable: low frontal rounded. also i have no microphone.
03:49:18 <oerjan> or possibly mid frontal rounded, somewhere around there
03:49:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, don't you pronounce it like ö?
03:49:18 <pikhq> The statute mile being, of course, 1,609.344 m.
03:49:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, what was the point of statue mile?
03:49:59 <Sgeo_> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11847921/Images/Games/Minecraft/screenshots/Heatsink.jpg why isn't the water flowing?
03:50:05 <oerjan> Vorpal: pretty close yes, i'm sure there is _some_ difference...
03:50:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Defined by Act of Parliament!
03:50:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, proably it flows down due to hole?
03:50:56 <pikhq> To define a standard system of measurements across Her Majesty's Realm.
03:50:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, check wiki for rules on water
03:51:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, nice building though
03:51:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, and it is flowing. Right down
03:52:49 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, I saw you the first time
03:53:32 <Sgeo_> You didn't need to repeat yourself
03:53:37 <pikhq> The US, to be contrary, also has the survey foot.
03:53:40 <pikhq> And related units.
03:53:55 <pikhq> Which are *almost* identical.
03:54:55 <pikhq> God, I hate the US's units.
03:55:18 <pikhq> variable: As am I.
03:55:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, relevant page is http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Fluids
03:55:46 <pikhq> Near Colorado Springs, CO.
03:56:02 <variable> pikhq, I'm from the center of the world: New York :-}
03:56:12 <pikhq> Oh, sure, be near population. :P
03:56:59 <pikhq> Well. I suppose I'm near population. One of the few regions of population density in, oh, the surrounding few-hundred-kilometer radius.
03:58:09 <Sgeo_> My dad's claiming that with my study habits, I would not have survived at a decent college, and it's the post-graduate college that matters anyway
03:58:27 <variable> Sgeo_, grad school matters the most
03:58:39 <variable> Sgeo_, curious - which uni are you in?
03:58:43 <pikhq> Seriously, the nearest place of notable population going west is a 920 kilometer drive...
03:59:00 <variable> Sgeo_, I'm in SUNY Binghamton :-)
03:59:00 <Sgeo_> Where the professors are idiots, the students are idiots
03:59:26 <pikhq> West, it's... 967 km.
03:59:36 <variable> Sgeo_, you could probably transfer around the SUNYs fairly easily
03:59:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: The US is freaking huge, and the west is sparsely populated.
04:00:05 <Sgeo_> variable, taking Computer Programming/Information Systems, need to work out if it's viable to do CS at Stony Brook for post-grad
04:00:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is like 200 km to Stockholm from here... And I consider that far. Well not as far as going to north Sweden.
04:00:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Look at a map of the US on Google Maps. Realise that that's about the size of Europe.
04:01:43 <pikhq> For me to go to the capital of the US would be a 28 hour trip driving straight...
04:02:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, take the sleeper train. Oh wait.
04:02:53 <variable> pikhq, I'm in the real capital of the US..... if I wanted to go to the political capital on the other hand..... </joke>
04:03:10 <pikhq> variable: You could actually take a train there.
04:03:22 * Sgeo_ suddenly wants to build a huge automatic elevator
04:03:31 <variable> pikhq, yes, I'm aware. I was joking about NY being the captial
04:03:42 <Sgeo_> Including automatic rests for breathing as needed
04:04:05 <pikhq> variable: Well, it is the *largest* city in the US.
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04:06:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, you mean boatlevator?
04:06:14 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, there are other kinds?
04:06:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, no breathing rests required. Even when going from bottom to top of map
04:06:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, it is too fast for that
04:06:58 <Sgeo_> Awwww, I wanted to build breathing rests
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04:07:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, you could try out the one I have at my place on the server. When you buy the game and ineiros let you on
04:07:05 <Sgeo_> Remove the ceiling!
04:07:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, it goes nearly to the top
04:07:42 <Vorpal> I think it is alt 4 -> alt 110 or something like that
04:09:51 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pDe7CKGgWA&feature=related actually says that it's the need to collect resources that makes MC interesting
04:11:07 <Sgeo_> Person doesn't know how to make scaffolds
04:13:01 <Sgeo_> Well, actually, I guess that works
04:13:01 <pikhq> There's a customary US fluid ounce and a food nutrition labelling US fluid ounce.
04:13:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, boat loop is simple
04:13:11 <Sgeo_> Probably better, too. Easy to remove
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04:13:29 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, I'm talking about the method this person is using to get back up when he fell
04:13:30 <pikhq> The customary once is *defined as* 29.5735295625 mL. The labelling one is 30 mL.
04:13:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, it you come on the server tomorrow I can show you
04:13:56 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, no chance I'll get MC by tomorrow
04:15:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, in my method that is no issue. You dig two spiral staircases down. one 2x2, one 2x3. Separated by 5 blocks. then connect them at the bottom . Close up top of 2x3. Place water along the far edge. Fix bottom end of loop (this is hardest). Remove stairs in the holes, starting from top. Finally Open up top of 2x3 so water can flow down as well
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04:22:02 <Sgeo_> It will be possible to use redstone to have music blocks play, right?/
04:22:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, as far as I heard yes
04:23:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, anyway I prefer a larger loop variant
04:23:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, more reliable, more time to get out and in of
04:24:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, besides in total it needs 2x5 digging, not 2x9. Though the 2x5 is spread out into two separate holes with some distance in between
04:29:30 <Sgeo_> No elevators on the Reddit servers
04:30:01 <Sgeo_> What happens if you use lava (not banned) and accidentally start a forest fire?
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04:38:22 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> Is the current vocab system the final system that will be in Factor 1.0?
04:38:29 <Sgeo_> I don't know why I bothered to ask
04:38:40 <Sgeo_> Hey, shutup shat up!
04:39:09 <Sgeo_> Ok, "shat" is almost certainly not .. does "shut" as a past tense work?
04:40:54 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shut
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04:57:01 <Mathnerd314> a programming language with *portals*... that would be interesting
04:57:54 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, oooooooooshowme
04:58:12 * Sgeo falls in love with a possibly not yet existent language
05:00:40 <oerjan> might be useful for distributed programming
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05:08:08 <Mathnerd314> curses, there's already a portal programming language: http://www.google.com/search?tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=editions%3Aeqevfg0_XtQC
05:13:34 * Sgeo falls in love with PORTAL
05:14:52 <Sgeo> Why haven't I heard of PORTAL before?
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05:37:02 <Mathnerd314> because it's an esoteric research language that nobody uses?
05:39:04 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:45:35 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I do believe this is #esoteric.
05:45:44 <pikhq> Esoteric languages are sort of our thing.
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06:16:24 * oerjan chuckles at r/circlejerk's latest antics
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06:17:45 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/circlejerk/comments/ewmac/for_every_500_upvotes_this_submission_gets_i_will/
06:17:52 <Sgeo> AFAICT, PORTAL was meant to be a practical language
06:21:19 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/who-was-i-and-why-was-i-important-again,18715/?utm_souce=popbox this is what elliott wants me to be
06:25:04 <pikhq> I still love that the US's national anthem is originally a drinking song.
06:28:43 <Gregor> Mythbusters sez: Sneeze into your elbow.
06:30:04 <pikhq> pikhq says: next performance of the US national anthem, be sure to sing "To Anacreon in Heav'n, where he sat in full glee" ...
06:50:20 <Sgeo> I think I should just sneeze on the nearest hatted person
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07:36:18 * Sgeo suddenly realizes the obvious reason that shutup wasn't talking
07:36:36 <Sgeo> <shutup> Shut up about shutup!
07:36:54 <Sgeo> oerjan, elliott not being online to run the bot
07:37:09 <Sgeo> And updog's presense here disproves my theory
07:37:24 <Sgeo> Unless... shutup gets its cues from elliott's client
07:37:34 <oerjan> hm i thought it could be updog too...
07:37:47 <Sgeo> shutup is, in fact, awake
07:38:16 <Sgeo> Don't know why I didn't get a response earlier
07:38:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
07:38:29 <Sgeo> <Sgeo_> Is the current vocab system the final system that will be in Factor 1.0?
07:39:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
07:39:36 * Sgeo glares at the kicked updog menacingly
07:39:44 <Sgeo> Well, at least we know that oerjan kicks dogs
07:40:32 <Sgeo> So yeah, updog feeds shutup
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07:46:02 <Sgeo> Got yet another Spam IM with a suspicious message
07:46:08 <Sgeo> This time, I plan on clicking
07:46:18 * Sgeo downloads TinyCore
07:51:14 <Sgeo> Now, as soon as I figure out how to install a browser on this thing
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08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:02:28 * Sgeo gets it working
08:02:50 <Sgeo> It's a thing claiming to give a free Blackberry Torch
08:13:49 <Sgeo> Started lagging out :/
08:14:01 <Sgeo> Also started fearing that maybe Freenode decided I was a spammer or somesuch
08:14:40 <Sgeo> j-invariant, was expecting malware or ... what do those fake contest things DO, exactly?
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08:52:47 <j-invariant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specker_sequence
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12:10:01 <Sgeo> It's distressing that I couldn't figure out how to change the resolution in SLAX
12:12:42 <Sgeo> http://tinymelinux.com/doku.php/download#bittorrent-recommended
12:12:50 <Sgeo> I don't see a torrent on that page
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12:19:34 <Sgeo> VirtualBox is beginning to piss me off
12:39:27 <Sgeo> SimplyMEPIS has THREE seeders
12:39:27 <cheater99> at least it's not doing anything unexpected
12:39:30 <Sgeo> That's depressing
12:39:46 <Sgeo> Even f****n JOLICLOUD has more
12:39:48 <cheater99> what's simplymepis? (i can't use the web right now)
12:40:19 <Sgeo> Because I'm exploring Linux distros right now
12:40:43 <Sgeo> Or.. did you mean for this channel?
12:40:55 <cheater99> what have you found to be noteworthy so far?
12:41:14 <Sgeo> The download hasn't finished yet
12:41:32 <cheater99> but you may have tried other linuces
12:41:43 <Sgeo> SLAX is still using KDE 3.something
12:42:00 <Sgeo> Saw something in the forums suggesting that it doesn't have latest ntfs-3g or somesuch
12:42:20 <Sgeo> TinyCore boots up REALLY FRIGGEN FAST
12:42:31 <cheater99> i mean as far as *interesting* things, not "things that ubuntu does easily"
12:44:10 <Sgeo> I've decided that my honeymoon with VirtualBox is over.
12:44:14 <cheater99> what other distros have you tried?
12:44:17 <Sgeo> I'm about to download VMWare Server
12:44:46 <Sgeo> Recently, or in the past?
12:45:23 <Sgeo> Um, just TinyCore and SLAX
12:45:27 <cheater99> to me it feels like most distros try and fail at copying several of the big ones
12:50:31 <Sgeo> Dear VMWare: I live in Schenectady. Love, Sgeo.
12:50:48 <Sgeo> [Note: I do not live in Schenectady]
13:06:13 <Sgeo> They do seem to check that the city you put in is real
13:06:28 <Sgeo> I didn't test whether or not it requires the matching ZIP code
13:06:43 <Sgeo> I put in 12345, which is for General Electric in Schnectady
13:08:49 <Sgeo> To find one I like!
13:09:52 * Sgeo misparsed that at first
13:10:26 <Sgeo> Relatively stupid stuff, mostly
13:11:01 <Sgeo> Only one I ever HATED that I can remember is Linux XP
13:16:31 <Sgeo> Why does VMWare Server feel a need to download a Java Runtime Environment?
13:16:45 <Sgeo> VirtualBox maybe I'd understand
13:17:03 * Sgeo wants to shoot Su.. oh wait, Oracle did that and is now being evil
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13:43:57 <Sgeo> So: VMWare Server now makes your computer into a server, and the UI is a webpage
13:44:02 <Sgeo> Why didn't I see this coming?
13:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, because visibility inside your blood fursuit is poor.
13:48:18 * Phantom_Hoover restarts XChat to get the bloody thing to register my default nick changes.
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13:49:59 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure pikhq warned me about this, but I ignored him because I thought he was talking about crappy internal architecture
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14:35:37 * Sgeo lols at the existence of ipv6-literal.net
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15:00:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, a question about mcmap: does water really block tp? Because when you ended up sub-surface in an unloaded chunk tp out of there would be /very/ useful
15:01:45 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:03:52 <fizzie> I'll fix that thing at some point.
15:03:54 -!- Behold has joined.
15:04:39 <oklopol> how's that win version coming
15:05:22 <oklopol> would be nice to get home, i managed to convince myself i had a way to look at coordinates as much as i like, and decided to take a random walk
15:05:41 <Vorpal> oklopol, you can use f3 to see coords
15:05:41 <oklopol> then turns out once i started using my great idea, i had a constant amount of look-ups :D
15:05:51 <oklopol> or you can, 5 times in a game
15:06:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, not you confused me
15:06:14 <oklopol> a red square goes on top of the numbers
15:06:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, ah yes, I heard that was a problem on smaller screens
15:06:25 <fizzie> You just have a too small window.
15:06:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, the graph thingy I assume?
15:06:43 <oklopol> too small resolution more like
15:07:01 <Vorpal> oklopol, it is fine with a maximised window on my 24" desktop monitor ;)
15:07:03 <fizzie> Anyhows, I don't know about the win binary, did it not work?
15:07:15 <oklopol> as i said, this is a very old crt
15:07:27 <oklopol> oh i didn't know it existed yet
15:07:41 <fizzie> It is probably very buggy.
15:08:04 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win.zip if I remember right.
15:08:19 <fizzie> The no-map mode might work if you just need a //goto.
15:08:46 <fizzie> For me it crashed on //goto, but it looked like it actually teleported first, so it might sorta-work.
15:08:47 <oklopol> all i want is to look at coordinates
15:09:05 <fizzie> Well, I don't think that works in nomap mode yet.
15:09:20 <fizzie> I can fixize that after I get home.
15:09:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, a feature request would be to turn the second letter of the command prefix into a #define or command line option. I was trying out a hmod plugin on my local test server that uses // as prefix. I patched it locally but it seems rather hackish. And // is a good default for most people.
15:09:49 <oklopol> i have to constantly look up to know where north is, because i can't see any landmarks with tiny, and it's very hard to keep track locally because whenever i move my mouse, one second later, all that is collected into a random turn
15:10:15 <fizzie> There is a /compass command, right.
15:10:18 <oklopol> (constantly look up and switch to normal)
15:10:26 <fizzie> It tells you which way you are looking at.
15:10:37 <fizzie> Doesn't tell you where you are, though.
15:11:53 <oklopol> maybe when i randomly find my way back, and no, i don't want your help and annoying comments
15:12:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, idea: get worldedit hmod plugin. stand next to water, use //drain 128
15:12:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, worldedit *is* an in-game map editor
15:13:00 <oklopol> btw there was a random boat in the water, i decided to steal it since they are practically free
15:13:14 <oklopol> that was a few blocks south
15:13:20 <Vorpal> oklopol, in the water where btw?
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15:13:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it works better than the free standing ones I tried.
15:14:08 <oklopol> also, i should probably continue playing, i just randomly bumped into one of your bridges
15:14:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, I didn't claim it was. Was just a general statement.
15:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The point of this is to build it with legitimate-but-for-kits methods.
15:14:22 <oklopol> hours of walking in the dark and suddenly: bridge.
15:14:27 <Vorpal> oklopol, bridges hm. Must be near spawn?
15:14:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, or wait. Very far south?
15:15:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, do you have an in-game compass (those always point towards spawn)
15:15:11 <oklopol> gonna try to see if there's something familiar there, being near spawn has been a rather confusing experience, since i've always been following a guy who randomly jumps 30 blocks at a time and calls me a retard
15:15:15 <Vorpal> using that and /compass you could tell general direction from spawn
15:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, if you don't have a compass I can give you one.
15:15:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, same. But I have to do some RL stuff now. bbs
15:15:46 <oklopol> might be fun i guess, i wish there was an in-game coordinate gadget
15:16:50 <oklopol> Vorpal: i'm not very far south anymore, see i tried to get back by going north, but then i just ended up playing with the boat till i got lost
15:17:02 <oklopol> because it was so much fun
15:17:40 <oklopol> i've always just swim, but when i suddenly found a boat, was hard not to try it
15:17:41 <Vorpal> oklopol, well there is f3 ;P
15:18:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, they are quite hard to control when laggy
15:18:05 <oklopol> well this is the biggest resolution i've got, and the crt is already blurring things a lot
15:18:09 <Vorpal> oklopol, they work a lot better in single player thus
15:18:23 <oklopol> well i have both lag and very low fps
15:18:57 <oklopol> my internet is crappy, i have a very old crt, and my computer is a tiny little laptop not exactly meant for gaming, can't handle most flash games
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15:30:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, "bus error" when trying to connect sometimes, randomly pretty much.
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16:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> oklopol, ah yes, I heard that was a problem on smaller screens
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16:08:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well on a large screen it never goes on top of the coords. even when the CPU is bogged down by mc
16:11:17 <fizzie> In my vertically oriented window it does not seem to be a problem either.
16:11:33 <fizzie> Does it scale the text too or just the GUI elements?
16:12:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I lost connection it seems
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16:12:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, down for you too?
16:14:08 <Sgeo> I just confused "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai: Across the Eighth Dimension" with Tron
16:15:14 * Sgeo has never seen either Tron or The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai
16:16:11 <Sgeo> ("Is that not so?" "Yes, that is not so.")
16:16:40 <Sgeo> WTF, googling for that quote and Pratchett gives nothing
16:16:46 <Sgeo> I KNOW I saw it in Thief of Time
16:46:18 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:46:54 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> ("Is that not so?" "Yes, that is not so.") <-- 1) without quotes the words are probably too generic to give a good result. 2) with quotes a tiny comma difference or such would probably result in not getting the result
16:47:06 <Vorpal> I don't remember that quote btw
16:48:45 <Sgeo> They were trying to convince... someone.. of something...
16:49:13 <Sgeo> Making excuses for why they weren't eating
16:49:20 <Sgeo> It was supposedly against their religion
16:49:29 <Sgeo> To eat the food that was being offered
16:59:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:08:43 <Sgeo> oerjan * (oerjan - 1) * (oerjan - 2) ..
17:12:16 -!- elliott has joined.
17:13:09 <Sgeo> elliott, we know all your secrets!
17:13:17 <Sgeo> [Ok, just one]
17:13:39 <oklopol> elliott we missed you in mc
17:15:00 <oklopol> yeah, we were all like if only this guy was here
17:15:59 <elliott> 19:58:09 <Sgeo_> My dad's claiming that with my study habits, I would not have survived at a decent college, and it's the post-graduate college that matters anyway
17:16:01 <oklopol> it involved tnt, stupidity, and the destruction of all your dreams
17:16:04 <elliott> Sgeo: your dad claims so many things
17:16:58 <oklopol> see we figured it'd be even faster to torch with tnt, because tnt blows up a much bigger area than a torch
17:18:39 <oerjan> <Vorpal> <Sgeo> ("Is that not so?" "Yes, that is not so.") <-- 1) without quotes the words are probably too generic to give a good result. 2) with quotes a tiny comma difference or such would probably result in not getting the result
17:18:56 <oerjan> i don't think google considers punctuation much even with quotes
17:19:10 <Sgeo> elliott, oerjan kicked it
17:19:14 <oerjan> elliott: WE DID AN EXPERIMENT
17:19:16 <Sgeo> Meaning I can say Factor all I want!
17:19:37 <Sgeo> Factor Active Worlds Smalltalk Newspeak
17:20:03 <elliott> ok, looks like updog being kicked broke shutup since they run on the same service supervisor
17:20:08 <oerjan> elliott: it was FOR SCIENCE
17:20:28 <oerjan> elliott: well that is what you _say_
17:20:40 <Sgeo> elliott, you're still trying to hide shutup being fed by updog?
17:20:45 <Sgeo> It's so obvious now
17:20:55 <elliott> what is ... obvious about putting two words together
17:21:01 <elliott> oerjan: are you going to continue to be opaque or are you going to tell me what you're talking about?
17:21:23 <oerjan> elliott: it is obvious that shutup had to get sgeo's channel message information through _someone_ in this channel
17:21:41 <elliott> oerjan: you realise that updog is a0
17:21:57 <Sgeo> 10 line Ruby scripts can't feed other scripts now/
17:21:59 <oerjan> and since it didn't shut up when _you_ were away, updog was the main suspect
17:22:14 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/dcFS
17:22:33 <elliott> i lied, it's actually 12 lines.
17:23:25 <Sgeo> Prove it. Run shutup without running updog
17:23:45 <elliott> that would involve editing the service. also, i don't particularly feel like proving anyhting to you
17:24:17 <elliott> ok, clearly updog isn't _banned_
17:24:37 <elliott> oerjan: if you're just looking for someone to ban there's plenty of other things you could
17:24:40 <oerjan> of course not, poor updog never did anything wrong
17:24:40 <Sgeo> elliott, it was an experiment, not ... bannishment
17:25:02 <Sgeo> <ellliott> Such as Sgeo
17:25:40 * Sgeo blinks at extraneous ls
17:25:51 <Sgeo> Well, just one l is extraneous
17:26:03 <oklopol> and there's one too much t
17:26:27 <oklopol> sure, but perhaps not today
17:26:48 <oklopol> i have Important Things irl
17:27:02 -!- updog has joined.
17:27:17 <Sgeo> Guess shutup isn't awake yet
17:27:21 <elliott> whoops, what's that, your stupid conspiracy theory isn't true?!! ZOMG
17:27:25 <elliott> and shutup has been online all this time
17:27:25 <oerjan> well shutup it _there_
17:27:48 <elliott> it broke because shutup is run on the same service to conserve memory on my _256 MiB_ vps, tyvm
17:28:01 <oerjan> Sgeo: you _do_ realize it is trivial for elliott to change anything and even lie about what code he is running if he wishes?
17:28:05 <elliott> meaning their network connections interact rather oddly
17:28:18 <elliott> oerjan: are you going to continue being paranoid?
17:28:36 <Sgeo> elliott, the other explanation for how shutup works is... magic?
17:28:41 <oklopol> i got stuck in minecraft mode
17:28:49 <Sgeo> oklopol, whenever I say certain things, shutup tells me to shutup
17:28:49 <elliott> if you don't _mind_, i'd like to restart it so that shutup starts working again
17:28:53 <oerjan> elliott: not really. but the fact that shutup has to get its information from _someone_ in the channel remains. i doubt you have a freenode server running.
17:28:53 <elliott> but i won't bother if you're going to kick updog
17:29:43 <elliott> oerjan: so are you going to ban updog if i restart the instance so that shutup unbreaks?
17:29:56 <Sgeo> I think I've said Factor Smalltalk Active Worlds etc. etc. more now that shutup exists...
17:29:57 <oerjan> elliott: that was only for an experiment. there is no point in repeating it.
17:30:22 -!- updog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:30:39 <oerjan> since Sgeo can ignore shutup any time he wants, i see no point in actually intervening.
17:30:41 <elliott> i'm restarting them, as i said.
17:32:07 -!- updog has joined.
17:32:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, did you kick it?
17:33:13 <Sgeo> Vorpal, updog was kicked for an experiment to see if shutup would stop reacting to my Newspeak and Active Worlds obsessions
17:33:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, because that should leave it connected. Meaning that nonsense about network connections interacting seem even less plausible than if it had been disconnected
17:33:24 <Sgeo> shutup now gives notices
17:33:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm really uninterested in conspiracy theories.
17:33:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so how does it work then? Just wondering.
17:33:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: well it's not _entirely_ implausible that it caused something in elliott's setup to break ;D
17:33:59 <elliott> if I told you, what fun would it be for me?
17:34:17 <elliott> j-invariant: if you buy it, you can come on our server and do menial work on the cube forever
17:34:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, seriously, did you actually go to a crap college because your dad said so?
17:34:36 <elliott> j-invariant: if it's a pirated copy it won't work
17:34:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo does everything because his dad said so
17:34:50 <Sgeo> I wasn't aware it would be crap, but I pretty much went there because my dad said to
17:34:57 <elliott> j-invariant: ah. ask ineiros for the address
17:35:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo regularly checks with his dad if it's OK to keep breathing.
17:35:21 <elliott> j-invariant: you neither have Finn privilege or South African privilege so you have to go through normal channels
17:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The worst part is that there's actually an intelligent person in there somewhere, kept down by a barrage of conditioned stupidity.
17:36:31 <oerjan> Vorpal: i can even imagine him being honest about what code updog is running, as long as he has something listening in between :)
17:36:53 <oerjan> although i don't precisely know how to do that myself
17:37:02 <elliott> oerjan: or maybe -- JUST maybe -- it works in a way you haven't thought of yet
17:37:26 <Sgeo> elliott, you said it doesn't read logs on the web... does it use mercurial at all?
17:37:28 <oerjan> elliott: well listening to one of the logs i think would be too resource intensive
17:37:29 <j-invariant> I have this ominous feeling that is was a huge mistake to buy this and I will not have any time for anything else :|
17:37:39 <elliott> Sgeo: no, gregor would know if it did
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17:37:45 <oerjan> oh you've already denied that
17:37:51 <elliott> j-invariant: welcome to the rest of your life
17:38:43 <oerjan> elliott: i can imagine many ways to set it up, but no plausible ones that don't require an accomplice on the channel
17:38:59 <oerjan> of course it doesn't have to be updog.
17:39:07 <elliott> i am master of the implausible
17:39:20 <oerjan> but it _is_ suspicious that it stopped when i kicked updog.
17:40:03 <Sgeo> Of course, if elliott wanted, he could switch it over to him then remove updog, as a "demonstration" that it wasn't updog
17:40:14 <oerjan> hey, we have lambdabot
17:40:29 <elliott> Sgeo: zomg, you should like, write an essay about that
17:40:58 <Sgeo> How can lambdabot be an accomplice?
17:41:14 <Sgeo> elliott, I got a 100% on the essay
17:41:25 <elliott> Sgeo: and now you are applying your learnings to updog
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17:43:27 <Sgeo> >updog< Factor
17:43:27 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about Factor!
17:43:39 <elliott> Sgeo: as i said, sharing the same connection
17:44:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Sgeo_not_really.
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17:45:25 <Sgeo> elliott, I'd ask you how that even makes sense in any way whatsoever other than updog being the source, but
17:46:01 <Sgeo> Seriously.. are you not running a normal OS on that machine, just wrote your own hastily written network stack?
17:46:12 <j-invariant> aww I think my computer is too slow to actually run this game
17:46:32 <elliott> j-invariant: go into options
17:46:35 <elliott> rendering distance short or tiny
17:47:07 <elliott> silly haskell invaders, this is secretly #minecraft
17:47:29 <oklopol> how do you know i don't give him the logs
17:47:38 <elliott> oklopol: OMG DON'T TELL THEM
17:47:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: i don't know if lambdabot can be an accomplice but that _is_ why i was browsing the channel member listing ;D
17:48:05 <elliott> oklopol: what the fuck, man, your big chest is actually full
17:48:38 <Sgeo> oklopol, well, given the evidence, there's a LOT pointing to updog currently being the accomplice
17:48:48 <Sgeo> A parking lot even
17:49:34 <Sgeo> elliott, bad pun
17:50:35 <oklopol> or full of sand and gravel
17:50:43 <elliott> i just filled it up to the max
17:50:58 <oklopol> a big box full of multiple things is not a pure box, and is useless
17:51:06 <elliott> oklopol: i didn't put the gravel there
17:51:07 <oklopol> you should make another box for gravel
17:51:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> silly haskell invaders, this is secretly #minecraft <-- actually it is #would-be-offtopic-if-anyone-ever-was-on-topic but freenode limits the name length so we had to go for something else
17:52:15 <Sgeo> elliott, how broken is your custom network stack?
17:52:27 <elliott> Sgeo: pretty broken. also, it's not a "network stack".
17:53:57 <Sgeo> You do realize that you're not convincing anyone, right?
17:54:30 <elliott> j-invariant: might be, might not
17:54:37 <elliott> j-invariant: not if it's on multiplayer ofc
17:54:44 <elliott> j-invariant: i can see someone building that by hand
17:54:49 <elliott> it's not a "huge" project to do so
17:54:52 <oklopol> Sgeo_not_really: i just do alright? :\
17:55:10 -!- Sgeo_not_really has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
17:55:56 <oklopol> sounds likely that the ellipse has been computed unmanually
17:58:33 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, feel free to test shutup by msg'ing updog
17:59:05 <elliott> he's not called Sgeo, it would do nothing.
17:59:14 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_.
17:59:18 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo_test.
17:59:31 -!- Sgeo_test has changed nick to Sgeo.
17:59:40 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_.
17:59:53 <Sgeo_> Hmm, would he need to be identified to PM?
18:01:49 <elliott> oklopol: build us a chest for gravel, i have more sand to put in
18:02:07 <oklopol> i'll build you a forest of chests when i get to it
18:02:32 <oklopol> i'll plant a 256x256 forest and replace log with chests
18:02:46 <oklopol> ...so you can't open any of them
18:03:52 <elliott> oklopol: "THIS LARGE CHEST IS FULL OF DIAMOND. TOO BAD I PUT BEDROCK ON TOP."
18:04:22 <oklopol> i've never a diamond box .(
18:05:16 * Sgeo_ acts pseudooffended
18:06:39 <cheater99> elliott: there was no specific quantifier :-D
18:06:45 <Sgeo_> cheater99, if elliott's telling the truth, AND updog and shutup are running on it... he's failing miserably
18:07:09 <elliott> cheater99: kitten or installing ubuntu on this laptop or what
18:07:40 <Sgeo_> In order for you to be telling the truth about updog not being shutup's source, shutup must be confusing updog's input with its own
18:07:47 <Sgeo_> Which is a sign of dementia at the OS level
18:08:46 * Sgeo_ suddenly wants DementedOS
18:09:52 <cheater99> elliott: how is ubuntu laptop coming along?
18:10:09 <elliott> cheater99: not at all until someone responds to my ubuntuforums post
18:10:19 * Sgeo_ wonders when he'll receive the email from PayPal describing why, exactly, someone who makes $38/year is not eligible for their credit card thing
18:10:21 <elliott> which seems unlikely, at this point
18:10:32 <elliott> Sgeo_: just get a debit card
18:10:57 <elliott> also, isn't it fairly obvious?
18:11:39 <elliott> Sgeo_: so get a debit card?
18:11:54 <elliott> oh wait i forgot you'd have to ask your father ... because 21 year olds can't get debit cards
18:12:51 -!- cal153 has joined.
18:12:51 <oklopol> Sgeo_: just send them money with a bank transfer
18:13:48 <elliott> oklopol: no he'd have to ask his dad
18:13:52 <elliott> and his dad thinks bank transfers are bad
18:17:13 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=54784
18:17:37 <elliott> fizzie: I have to say, that animation under Usage is something I would love to see in your mcmap.
18:18:08 <Sgeo_> elliott, .... tbh I told my dad that I was angry and that I was going to go get a debit card... and he said he'll look into it, he's going to Wal-Mart anyway, so he'll get one for me
18:21:02 <fizzie> Well, I could easily have an "surface except up to max-height" mode, but I don't have an isometric view at all.
18:21:39 <oklopol> elliott: how would his dad know if he gets a bank account and makes a transfer
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18:22:05 <elliott> oklopol: well Sgeo_ would ask him of course
18:23:07 <elliott> fizzie: i'd add it, except I only do _easy_ work
18:23:19 <fizzie> Oh, that's an offline map-browser thing? The word "live" confused me.
18:23:38 <elliott> fizzie: Having said that... an isometric mode would be amazing... albeit slow.
18:23:53 <fizzie> "From the file menu you can select Worlds 1-5 from single-player minecraft on your system or any world folder, including server worlds."
18:24:37 <elliott> What; M-x new-frame makes the font reset.
18:25:02 <elliott> fizzie: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/107712/MCMap%20Screenshots/ss5.png Also this would be nice in real-time. :
18:25:42 <fizzie> I'll consider isometricry and/or other prettification things too. And some sort of block-finder, that could be nice too.
18:26:08 <oklopol> you guys take the venture out of adventure
18:26:28 <elliott> oklopol: i don't actually use mcmap's mapping
18:26:34 <elliott> i just use it for the //goto
18:26:57 <oklopol> well, i understand that, although i'd prefer minecarts that are easier to use
18:27:28 <elliott> oklopol: are you _sure_ you're right clicking them :D
18:28:06 <oklopol> you push them, then you right click a random number of times, and hope an odd number of clicks is done, then you wait to see something, and you'll know whether you're in the cart or whether the cart has run away
18:28:28 <elliott> oklopol: you push them, you right click once, and you wait
18:28:28 <oklopol> hope, because every fifth click works
18:28:36 <elliott> if it fails it's because ineiros is skyping
18:29:15 <oklopol> okay, so maybe minecarts are special like that
18:29:49 <oklopol> but sometimes it takes me a few minutes to get a click to work
18:30:07 <fizzie> I might just prefer preset warp destinations; maybe I'll have ineiros finally add some when he visits.
18:30:18 <oklopol> god i love complaining about this, i'm like an old lady telling everyone how much her hips her
18:31:12 <oklopol> anyway previous is corrected
18:31:25 <fizzie> Her hip hurt herds her.
18:31:47 <elliott> 04:44:10 <Sgeo> I've decided that my honeymoon with VirtualBox is over.
18:31:51 <elliott> the marriage breaks down already
18:32:06 <elliott> i guess all that cheating on Vorpal VirtualBox did just got too much
18:32:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Sgeo_ broke up with VirtualBox and started a new love affair with VMWare
18:33:07 <elliott> I assume it's because of all the time VirtualBox is spending with YOU
18:33:21 <Vorpal> elliott, gah. vmware is even worse. Though I am looking for a good alternative to virtualbox what with oracle and so on now
18:33:27 <elliott> Vorpal: vmware SERVER no less
18:33:31 <oklopol> did inva enter server btw?
18:33:44 <Sgeo_> I decided to shoot VMWare Server before I ever touched her
18:33:51 <elliott> oklopol: i'm telling him to ask ineiros, but you could just tell j-invariant the address
18:33:55 <elliott> you're oklopol so nobody would blame you
18:34:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I used that.. back before virtualbox exited (or at least before it was well known). But yeah it is annoying. And isn't modern versions browser based too
18:34:12 <Vorpal> (never used modern versions)
18:34:25 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, yes. Yes it is.
18:34:27 <elliott> 05:49:59 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure pikhq warned me about this, but I ignored him because I thought he was talking about crappy internal architecture
18:34:31 <elliott> water blocks toilet paper, yup
18:34:35 <elliott> 07:00:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, a question about mcmap: does water really block tp? Because when you ended up sub-surface in an unloaded chunk tp out of there would be /very/ useful
18:34:57 <elliott> 07:05:22 <oklopol> would be nice to get home, i managed to convince myself i had a way to look at coordinates as much as i like, and decided to take a random walk
18:35:11 <elliott> 07:06:14 <oklopol> a red square goes on top of the numbers
18:35:11 <elliott> 07:06:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, ah yes, I heard that was a problem on smaller screens
18:35:13 <elliott> it isn't the fucking screen size
18:35:18 <elliott> more cpu usage = it blocks the indicator
18:35:20 <pikhq> VMware Server before their *revolting* AJAX UI wasn't bad.
18:35:22 <oklopol> i don't have any place yet
18:35:42 <pikhq> It wasn't the greatest thing ever, but it had an entirely usable and working GTK UI, and it just plain worked.
18:35:49 <Vorpal> elliott, actually screen size matters too, this system is bogged down under mc, but the screen is large.
18:35:56 <pikhq> Now, it doesn't fucking work and it HAS ITS OWN COPY OF EVERYTHING
18:36:02 <oklopol> oh well obviously mc uses up all my cpu, so maybe i should just force it to be low while reading coords
18:36:21 <elliott> oklopol: or just use mcmap and //coords when fizzie makes a working windows binary :p
18:36:25 <elliott> 07:12:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, idea: get worldedit hmod plugin. stand next to water, use //drain 128
18:36:28 <elliott> Vorpal: cuboid plugin does that.
18:36:42 <elliott> "minecraft would be so much better if we didn't have to mine or craft!"
18:36:46 <fizzie> oklopol: Did you try out the win-binary, incidentally?
18:36:51 <elliott> fizzie: he just wants coords
18:36:58 <elliott> 07:08:19 <fizzie> The no-map mode might work if you just need a //goto.
18:36:58 <elliott> 07:08:46 <fizzie> For me it crashed on //goto, but it looked like it actually teleported first, so it might sorta-work.
18:36:58 <elliott> 07:08:47 <oklopol> all i want is to look at coordinates
18:37:00 <oklopol> i have a windows binary, forgot about ti
18:37:01 <elliott> 07:09:05 <fizzie> Well, I don't think that works in nomap mode yet.
18:37:03 <elliott> 07:09:20 <fizzie> I can fixize that after I get home.
18:37:34 <Vorpal> elliott, cuboid is less well written from what I read. Not quite notch quality but buggier definitely. (And worldedit has more features as well.)
18:38:02 <elliott> Vorpal: i only know cuboid from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaigDxHBKbA, which is my favourite video ever
18:38:02 <fizzie> elliott: Well, you do get coords in the mappy mode, but I guess that's less likely to work. Anyway, just came home.
18:38:21 <elliott> Vorpal: so if worldedit can do that then SURE
18:38:31 <pikhq> Sony claims they'll be "fixing the issues" with the PS3 using a network update.
18:39:23 <Sgeo_> pikhq, I should have listened to you
18:39:32 <elliott> pikhq: it can be effective.
18:39:47 <pikhq> Yeah, the only thing that could do anything about this is: adding a new layer of signing onto new games plus a whitelist for all the old games. *On a new revision of hardware.*
18:39:49 <elliott> pikhq: means that for anyone who hasn't yet homebrew'd the console, the only way to do it is hardware modding
18:40:26 <elliott> pikhq: i.e., there's three types of machine: updated ones, can't be hacked except by hardware mods; already-hacked ones; and new ones, which are invulnerable
18:40:27 <Vorpal> elliott, can't answer until I watched video. But one think I did was select a huge area (200x200) then expand the selection to bottom of map and replace everything but air with stone. Worked perfectly and as happened so fast it seemed instant.
18:40:29 <elliott> in an idael situation (for sony)
18:40:44 <elliott> j-invariant: mine stuff, build a shelter, get armour, find a nice mountain, start a mine
18:40:48 <elliott> j-invariant: make farms, kill bad things
18:40:51 <elliott> j-invariant: build interesting stuff
18:40:53 <pikhq> elliott: This, of course, presumes that Sony does it perfectly.
18:41:12 <pikhq> That is, creates new keys and a whitelist, and introduces *no new vulnerabilities*.
18:41:28 <elliott> oklopol: you should be hideously irresponsible with the server address right now!
18:41:34 <pikhq> Oh, and the new keys would of course have to be in the mask for future CPUs.
18:41:34 <elliott> or j-invariant could just read the logs i guess :P
18:41:45 <coppro> and also invalidates the old keys
18:41:47 <pikhq> It'll be several months before we start seeing that.
18:41:56 <pikhq> coppro: "Whitelist".
18:42:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it can fill a selection with lava like that.
18:42:22 <elliott> just make a hacker which has the exact same signature as a legit game.
18:42:30 <coppro> oh, also, this totally assumes that they don't use a cracked PS3 to download the update and pick it apart
18:42:30 <Vorpal> elliott, something like //set lava after making a selection
18:42:31 <elliott> Vorpal: i linked it because it was funny not because i thought worldedit couldn't do it
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18:42:51 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I must have misinterpreted your line "<elliott> Vorpal: so if worldedit can do that then SURE" then
18:42:53 <pikhq> All this will only prevent homebrew from happening on new consoles, anyways.
18:43:03 <elliott> Vorpal: if worldedit can generate SUCH HILARITY then sure.
18:43:09 <pikhq> The update *will have to be* encrypted with the old keys.
18:43:12 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I guess it's a bit late for me to buy a PS3?
18:43:19 <elliott> Sgeo_: not if you do it NOW
18:43:19 <coppro> pikhq: but then they can break the new keys
18:43:22 <pikhq> Which means that you will *have* the new keys.
18:43:28 <coppro> since the new keys will have to be encoded in the same way
18:43:31 <pikhq> So piracy on old hardware will happen forever and ever.
18:43:41 <coppro> so then piracy on new keys will happen the same way
18:43:47 <elliott> fizzie: i am trying to figure out how to do the packet_id enum in SML sanely :D
18:43:50 <pikhq> And there is literally nothing Sony can do about it at all.
18:44:01 <elliott> j-invariant: there is definitely not the address of the minecraft server in yesterday's logs.
18:44:06 <Sgeo_> pikhq, you will have the public keys though, which shouldn't be private, so? Oh, unless you intercept it?
18:44:08 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, you're actually doing the ML rewrite?
18:44:15 <elliott> fizzie: well i'm... toying with the idea :D
18:44:19 <elliott> fizzie: it might not actually include the map part
18:44:20 <Vorpal> elliott, also worldedit can generate snowfall. Might be useful up around dw's place
18:44:27 <pikhq> Sgeo_: The public keys are sufficient for doing piracy on cracked firmware.
18:44:28 <elliott> Sgeo_: it's symmetric encryption
18:44:42 <Sgeo_> elliott, that seems... stupid
18:44:55 <pikhq> elliott: It's assymmetric, but all PS3s have the public key.
18:44:55 <elliott> Sony, stupid? haha you lie
18:45:03 <oklopol> would be nice if you could just disable the bad thingies in some areas
18:45:04 <fizzie> Okay, I have now produced a Windows mcmap binary that has working //coords, and it worked for me (in nomap mode) under Wine: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win.zip
18:45:14 <pikhq> It's *supposed* to be in a SPU that you can't normally access.
18:45:27 <elliott> oklopol: "mcmap -cm a322.org:25566" in a cmd window
18:45:32 <Sgeo_> "The public keys are sufficient for doing piracy on cracked firmware."
18:45:32 <elliott> oklopol: then connect to 127.0.0.1 with minecraft
18:45:36 <elliott> oklopol: and do //coords in chat
18:45:44 <coppro> They can just replicate the attack method on the new keys on old hardware, can't they?
18:45:46 <Sgeo_> How does that make.. I'm confused
18:45:55 <elliott> coppro: not if sony redoes the encryption without stupid
18:45:58 <fizzie> I think it should have a Win32-specific launch dialog where you enter the host/port and select the options, since aren't Windows users in general rather uncomfortable with the command line?
18:46:02 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Decrypt stuff with the new keys, and run it on firmware that doesn't do the key check.
18:46:34 <elliott> fizzie: does mcmap give up permanently whenever it sees an invalid password?
18:46:36 <pikhq> coppro: The key revealing actually came because Sony did their signing algorithm retardedly.
18:46:46 <elliott> I suppose I could have each packet ID written twice (one in the data type, one in an int -> packet_id converter)
18:46:50 <pikhq> coppro: It's actually not anything on the PS3 itself at *all*.
18:47:03 <elliott> 18:45 fizzie: I think it should have a Win32-specific launch dialog where you enter the host/port and select the options, since aren't Windows users in general rather uncomfortable with the command line?
18:47:08 <j-invariant> this just makes me want to design some weird 2D cellular automata
18:47:10 <elliott> fizzie: do you _want_ to encourage clueless windows users to use this?
18:47:20 <elliott> j-invariant: do it in redstone
18:47:24 <pikhq> Anyways. Sony's "security" architecture is positively retarded.
18:47:50 <pikhq> Fun fact: with arbitrary code execution *at all*, you can decrypt everything ever even without access to the keys that you shouldn't be able to access.
18:47:56 <elliott> j-invariant: everything in your life is minecraftn ow
18:47:58 <fizzie> elliott: Market adoption, I hear it's important. And it gives up permanently whenever the TCP connection is closed. (It doesn't look at the login packets otherwise, except for reading the player entity ID out of it.)
18:48:10 <pikhq> The decryption SPU can be used as a decryption oracle so long as you're running code.
18:48:14 <elliott> fizzie: what does it do if it sees an invalid packet?
18:48:20 <j-invariant> "Category theory is a popular framework for expressing abstract properties of
18:48:34 <pikhq> Seriously, the PS3 is fucked 15 different ways.
18:48:45 <fizzie> elliott: Well, yes, because it's impossible to guess where the invalid packet would end. I guess it could *try* to resync, but I'm not sure how likely that is to work.
18:48:51 <Sgeo_> fizzie, elliott is morally opposed to anything that is popular.
18:49:02 <elliott> Sgeo_: um are you _defending_ Windows
18:49:14 <pikhq> Oh, and there will *be* arbitrary code execution exploits: you write software for it in C.
18:49:21 <elliott> i'm just saying that the kind of people who won't open cmd.exe to type "mcmap blah" are the kind of people who are going to produce the whining fizzie loathes so
18:49:37 <fizzie> Maybe they can't figure out where to whine.
18:49:48 <fizzie> If they whine, say, on the minecraft forums, that's not a loss for me.
18:49:52 <elliott> fizzie: Sgeo_'s right here.
18:50:02 <elliott> fizzie: do you really want to touch the win32 api? :-)
18:50:12 <fizzie> It's been a while; it might be nostalgick.
18:50:14 <elliott> I hear it is _quite_ loathesome.
18:50:45 <fizzie> I already looked at the dialog resource script file format, it's very awful. (MinGW of course doesn't have a dialog designer thing.)
18:51:26 <fizzie> A Win binary without the mapping feature might not be very popular, though.
18:51:34 <elliott> fizzie: Just do it all with those OK/Cancel default MsgBoxes.
18:51:35 <fizzie> And of course there's the denial-of-service thing.
18:51:43 <elliott> fizzie: "Is the first bit of the address 0?"
18:52:20 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, I think //goto is rather good justification for never letting this out ever. (Even if you removed it, just takes one intrepid commit-logger...)
18:52:29 <elliott> Especially since it has been verified to do Awful Things.
18:52:57 <Sgeo_> Can't Notch make //goto ineffective over the relevent distances?
18:53:11 <elliott> Sgeo_: The reason //goto works is because his server architecture is completely broken.
18:53:20 <elliott> I do not expect he could redesign it to be less broken, as he is an idiot.
18:53:54 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
18:53:55 <fizzie> Again, his todo list hints that //goto is pretty likely to be nerfed in the future.
18:54:32 <elliott> fizzie: You still haven't shown why really.
18:54:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Telling you that seems ... unwise.
18:54:38 <fizzie> A simple maximum-speed check for PLAYER_MOVE messages would make it unworkable.
18:54:51 <elliott> fizzie: What entry in his todo list implies it'll be fixed?
18:54:55 <Sgeo> ...it's just PLAYER_MOVE messages?
18:55:21 <fizzie> elliott: The highest-priority "Make the server check for flying, no clip and increased speed." one?
18:55:22 <oerjan> > fix(([1,2]++).drop 2.(uncurry replicate=<<).flip zip(cycle[1,2]))
18:55:23 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,...
18:55:26 <elliott> Sgeo: It works by sending 20 of them with subtly invalid fields that confuse the server in a specific way.
18:55:31 <elliott> Sgeo: There, now don't abuse it.
18:55:41 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, isn't that from the Classic era?
18:55:47 <elliott> fizzie: I know flying was ubiquitous then.
18:55:57 <elliott> fizzie: I don't think noclip is possible with Alpha, but it was with Classic.
18:56:10 <fizzie> Well, the context is "Before beta", so technically speaking all three things should be already done. :p
18:56:26 <fizzie> (I think he's sort of given up with that toodledo list.)
18:57:07 <fizzie> "While we [Mojang] were doing this [having a strategy meeting], there was a film crew on place (since Monday, actually), documenting and interviewing."
18:57:17 <fizzie> Ooh, expect a "Minecraft: the making of" hip-cumentary.
18:57:26 <fizzie> (It's like a documentary, except more hip.)
18:58:08 <elliott> Vorpal: have you excavated recently by any chance?
18:58:09 <fizzie> "Oh, and I’ve finally committed the Music Blocks to the repository.
18:58:09 <fizzie> (Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil)"
18:58:19 <elliott> fizzie: ...did he say that.
18:58:21 <elliott> fizzie: Did Notch say that.
18:58:26 <elliott> fizzie: Please tell me Notch didn't say that.
18:58:28 <fizzie> Yes, it's in his glob.
18:58:35 <elliott> fizzie: I'm going to punch him IRL.
18:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, when it seems imminent that it will be fixed, we make the server crash bug public and watch the anarchy.
18:58:42 <elliott> fizzie: He has circlejerks^Wmeetups, right?
18:58:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Evil, but ... fun. But evil.
18:59:05 <fizzie> I don't know, but probably some sort of events, yes.
18:59:49 <elliott> fizzie: OK. So theoretically I could go and punch him.
18:59:52 <elliott> Unless he has fan bodyguards?
19:01:02 <elliott> "If this gets a bunch of upvotes, I'll write and record a concept album about Creepers, and release it for free in February."
19:01:05 <elliott> I am going to punch everyone.
19:01:41 <elliott> "I'm kind of sad to see him diss git like that. I really enjoy it, and it has lots of advantages over svn. It's a shame he ran into problems. (But.. svn?? There are other options, man! It's not like you're committing large binary files!)"
19:01:45 <elliott> Now, please, bet on the following statement:
19:01:53 <elliott> "Notch is committing large binary files to the Minecraft repository."
19:02:54 <elliott> fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: Also bet on: "Adventure mode will exist in the first post-beta release."
19:03:05 <fizzie> "Music Blocks" does sound pretty much like large binary files.
19:03:34 <elliott> fizzie: Music blocks is this new block type he's adding.
19:04:01 <elliott> Ha, apparently they're trying to "come up with a release date" for Minecraft already.
19:04:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Are all Swedes stupid, or is my sample size just deficient?
19:04:43 <Vorpal> elliott, me and olsner aren't stupid
19:04:50 <elliott> Oh, right, olsner isn't stupid.
19:04:53 <elliott> Maybe just most Swedes then.
19:05:23 <elliott> 18:57 fizzie: "Oh, and I’ve finally committed the Music Blocks to the repository.
19:05:23 <elliott> 18:57 fizzie: (Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil)"
19:05:26 <elliott> Because Notch has no brain.
19:05:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:06:03 <elliott> Notch has stolen the concept of Minecraft from the world; nobody can ever execute it properly, because the accusations of plagiarism will be non-stop.
19:06:57 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, me and olsner aren't stupid <-- you _have_ to be the straight man, don't you? :D
19:07:23 <elliott> oerjan: i do wonder if he really missed my "subtle" insult, or whether he just decided to ignore it for the sake of anti-comedy
19:07:35 <elliott> (anti-comedy is not the result of anti-jokes, it is the result of being anti-joke)
19:07:58 <oerjan> anti-jokes are, of course, hilarious.
19:08:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, I added "Complaining About People Not Liking The Show" to MC's TV Tropes page.
19:09:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THAT IS A SUBJECTIVE TROPE
19:09:42 <Sgeo> Notch's fans seem to be using the Diaspora excuse to excuse his issues
19:10:10 <elliott> "Was originally a Spiritual Successor of the free Infiniminer"
19:10:19 <elliott> Zach must fucking hate Notch.
19:10:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, Survival Test is now completely gone.
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19:15:08 <elliott> fizzie: Can you force ineiros' IP to change to something really easily-guessable?
19:16:07 <elliott> oklopol: DON'T WORRY IF YOU'RE GOING ON THE SERVER I'M AT THE SPAWN TO HELP GUIDE YOU >:D
19:17:14 <elliott> fizzie: "Somewhat averted by Alpha Update 1.0.15. Wood and other flammable blocks now catch fire up to three blocks away from lava."
19:17:45 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, I just realised all the slogan texts are gone, it just says "finally beta now" (just realised: just read on the tv tropes page)
19:21:51 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: DON'T WORRY IF YOU'RE GOING ON THE SERVER I'M AT THE SPAWN TO HELP GUIDE YOU >:D" <<< i am not at spawn tho
19:22:41 <fizzie> Interesting; the "Finally beta!" string comes from a try { ... } catch (Exception e) { l = "Finally beta!"; } code-structure.
19:23:04 <fizzie> Even though the /title/splashes.txt is still there in the .jar.
19:23:10 <fizzie> I don't know how he's hardcodeded it.
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19:24:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, BtW, http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Eric_S._Raymond&diff=709079&oldid=708724
19:24:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Seen, and mentioned to you ages ago.
19:24:20 <elliott> It's better than before, so I won't argue.
19:24:24 <elliott> (before = before i edited)
19:24:49 <Phantom_Hoover> You could argue that his work in computing is generally respectable.
19:25:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, uh, fetchmail.
19:25:13 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: "mcmap -cm a322.org:25566" in a cmd window" <<< it just tells me how to use mcmap
19:25:24 <elliott> oklopol: what did you type, in full
19:25:30 <elliott> did ou type -exactly- that :P
19:25:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone have a link summing up MC's stupid technical problems?
19:26:02 <fizzie> Oh, no, it doesn't: it actually comes from something like try { ...; l = splashes.get(rnd.nextInt(splashes.size())); goto bleh; } catch (Exception e) { bleh: l = "Finally beta!"; } ... assuming I read the bytecode right. So it actually selects a random splash, then rewrites it with that.
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19:26:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Or just a series of links to examples of Notch's idiocy.
19:26:35 <fizzie> oklopol: That's weirdistic. But admittedly I have only tried it with wine. What about "mcmap dummy -cm a322.org:25566"?
19:27:09 <fizzie> Though I guess that won't hep, since it'd anyway just miss the -cm part.
19:27:29 <elliott> 19:25 Phantom_Hoover: Someone have a link summing up MC's stupid technical problems?
19:27:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: why do you assume the badness of things is always summed up in links
19:27:47 <fizzie> (I manually split the command line I get from GetCommandLine() at spaces, since that one includes the program name, unlike the WinMain lpCmdLine param.)
19:28:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I want at least *some* evidence before I call Notch an idiot.
19:28:06 <fizzie> I should just figure out how to make mingw build a binary with a traditional "main".
19:28:11 <fizzie> Or add that launcher dialog!
19:28:19 <elliott> fizzie: Well it's _meant_ to just work. :p
19:28:31 <elliott> That :D was from the bleh: thing.
19:28:59 <fizzie> Yes, but it doesn't want to "just work" for me.
19:29:10 <Vorpal> <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, me and olsner aren't stupid <-- you _have_ to be the straight man, don't you? :D <-- hah
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19:29:42 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: look at random pages on minecraft wiki, "pigs stopped working after the halloween update due to the texture of cobblestone being changed"
19:30:55 <elliott> please tell me that's true
19:30:55 <fizzie> MinGW crt1.c supposedly has this:
19:30:57 <fizzie> * Call the main function. If the user does not supply one
19:30:57 <fizzie> * the one in the 'libmingw32.a' library will be linked in, and
19:30:57 <fizzie> * that one calls WinMain. See main.c in the 'lib' dir
19:31:02 <elliott> oklopol: i would really like that to be actually true
19:31:06 <elliott> oklopol: i can actaully believe it
19:31:09 <oklopol> that would be pretty awesome.
19:31:16 <fizzie> So yes, it's supposed to use a user-supplied main when there is one.
19:31:22 <oklopol> what was that problem with trees inflooping cause by something unrelated
19:31:27 <elliott> oklopol: turns out he procedurally generated the pig texture based on the cobblestone one, obviously
19:31:34 <elliott> and also, stores state in the unused parts of the texture
19:31:48 <elliott> oklopol: or, better: the pig and cobblestone code is completely unrelated
19:31:53 <elliott> and the pig code doesn't even touch the texture code
19:31:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: note: this is lies
19:32:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: just very true lies
19:32:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it isn't real
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19:33:35 <pikhq> Republicans in the House read the US Constitution upon opening the current session of Congress...
19:33:42 <pikhq> *And intentionally omitted parts*.
19:33:51 <oklopol> oaky leaf decay caused infloops in leaves. still kind of weird that was not something he could just quickly fix.
19:33:58 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, I think it's a SDL problem, in fact. The SDL.h header does: #if defined(__WIN32__) ... #define main SDL_main ...; and then there's supposed to be some sort of a SDL winmain.c that calls it. How very messy.
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19:34:02 <elliott> oklopol: ah yes, leaf decay is very oaky.
19:34:09 <pikhq> Including the ⅗ths compromise...
19:34:11 <elliott> fizzie: I had to do stuff with that once
19:34:17 <cheater99> elliott: where is your ubuntuforums post?
19:34:18 <elliott> fizzie: just rename main to SLD_main
19:34:24 <elliott> cheater99: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1658418
19:34:32 <pikhq> (which stated that, for the purposes of the census, a slave will be considered ⅗ths of a person.)
19:34:35 <elliott> fizzie: and it'll Work Out Perfectly IIRC
19:34:51 <oklopol> if i don't disable the map, what'll happen?
19:34:55 <oklopol> i don't have the balls to try myself
19:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I'd still like some examples of completely stupid bugs.
19:34:59 <elliott> oklopol: you'll probably die
19:35:04 <elliott> oklopol: but i'd wait until fizzie fizes :P
19:35:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: placing torches on leaves used to only work in fancy...or was it fast
19:35:18 <oklopol> is the shop open i want stuff
19:35:19 <elliott> but it worked when you put it back
19:35:31 <elliott> as in they didn't disappear
19:35:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It pains me to say this, but I can't add the trope with that evidence.
19:36:37 <oklopol> the fact he clearly codes every new enemy from scratch should be evidence enough
19:36:49 <oklopol> there's tons of evidence for that: every object works slightly differently
19:37:15 <oklopol> details do, even though the relevant things are the same for them
19:37:39 <oklopol> well, i'm not being very helpful, but the point is it's weird if no one has collected this stuff in a list
19:37:46 <oklopol> there's evidence everywhere
19:40:11 <fizzie> elliott: Well, it only works if with SDL_main if I also statically link in -lSDLmain, and I'm not sure I want to do that. I guess it's sort-of recommended-by-some, but it breaks e.g. the otherwise legal "int main(void)". (And -lSDLmain is not part of SDL's pkg-config flags.) I think I'll just crudely work-around it in the win32 build, that one is allowed to be ugly.
19:40:39 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, but I think it's like that for a Reason.
19:40:43 <elliott> fizzie: SDL needs special initialising on win32 I think.
19:41:54 <oklopol> took a random page: "Currently, slimes cannot spawn naturally, but this will most likely be fixed." <<< why the fuck do they have their own spawning code?
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19:42:27 <oklopol> and what the fuck is hard about using a function to calculate prob of appearing from height, and then adding a certain kind of tile on the map
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19:42:34 <cheater99> maybe he wants to make them into puddings
19:42:34 <oklopol> how the fuck can you have a bug in that
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19:46:05 <fizzie> So did oko get it started or what actually happened?
19:46:45 <elliott> He's not on the server at least.
19:47:47 <elliott> fizzie: Well, he hasn't tried it since the first error afaik.
19:47:57 <fizzie> This time I got even the mappy version started, and there's a map and all, but then it hung up after two chat messages and downloading most of the initial chunks.
19:48:32 <fizzie> Something is probably wrong there, but Wine-testing is so crummy.
19:49:16 <fizzie> He can try the same URL again, it has a "regular" main now so maybe the command line args work too. (Then again, maybe not.)
19:49:20 <ais523> hmm, according to Slashdot, converting the string "2.2250738585072011e-308" into a floating point number sends PHP 5.2 and 5.3 into an infinite loop
19:49:32 <ais523> so it's not /just/ Excel that has problems with float stringification
19:49:48 <ais523> again, you wonder how that was discovered...
19:51:22 <elliott> ais523: welcome to three days ago
19:53:57 <cheater99> elliott: have you tried resizing the existing mac partition(s) and putting a new partition on there?
19:55:01 <elliott> cheater99: Uhh, I did that before any of this ... you do realise my issue is actually getting the LiveCD booted, right?
19:55:24 <cheater99> elliott: so you don't want ubuntu permanently on your laptop?
19:55:39 <elliott> cheater99: You have a way to install Ubuntu without booting the live media now?
19:55:45 <elliott> I'm not about to use Wubi.
19:56:00 <cheater99> elliott: install ubuntu on another computer, and clone the partition over
19:56:04 <cheater99> i've done that 1304758203475 times
19:56:23 <elliott> I don't have any even vaguely-similar hardware. plus, the fstab would be fucked up and probably all kinds of shit would break subtly.
19:56:28 <elliott> (since the fstab uses guids nowadays.)
19:56:36 <fizzie> oklopol, elliott: If it still doesn't work, I'll just build a windows binary that hardcodes the command line options.
19:56:42 <cheater99> i've been swapping the same hard drive between 3 different cpu architectures
19:56:51 <elliott> cheater99: cpu is irrelevant.
19:56:53 <cheater99> it works straight away (well i have to reboot once)
19:57:01 <elliott> cheater99: bootloader installation
19:57:03 <elliott> I have no other EFI machines
19:57:27 <cheater99> i believe there is the grub installer for macos too
19:57:46 <elliott> cheater99: yeaaaah no, it's probably grub-efi
19:57:59 <cheater99> you can tell it to install grub on disk n partition k and it does it all automagically
19:57:59 <elliott> i really only want to go the live-media route.
19:58:02 <elliott> it should not be difficult.
19:58:14 <cheater99> what's grub-efi and why is it bad?
19:58:15 <oklopol> macos is what mcdonald's calls tacos
19:58:25 <elliott> cheater99: grub-efi is grub-efi and it's bad because linux efi support sucks
19:58:53 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:58:54 <cheater99> i'm not apple-compatible, i don't know those things
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19:59:29 <elliott> cheater99: if you don't know what efi is, the chances of you being able to help me are close to 0.
19:59:34 <elliott> considering it's basically the entire problem
19:59:44 <cheater99> elliott: well if you explain it to me then i will know it!
19:59:56 <fizzie> oklopol: When it says "waiting for connection", it means you have to start minecraft and connect to 127.0.0.1.
20:00:05 <fizzie> (Or presumably "localhost".)
20:00:05 <elliott> cheater99: dentistry is about toothcare. can you give me a filling?
20:01:15 <cheater99> elliott: so you don't want grub at all, yes?
20:01:35 <elliott> i want normal grub, as the ubuntu live media installs perfectly on macs when it is booted.
20:01:51 <cheater99> elliott: i don't think it's a special grub that there is
20:02:12 <elliott> cheater99: Yes, there is, grub-efi.
20:02:29 <cheater99> elliott: what about running ubuntu in parallels
20:02:38 <elliott> i want to run ubuntu as my main os. also, parallels is crap.
20:02:58 <cheater99> elliott: you can run it in parallels, have the normal grub install stuff, and you could boot ubuntu.
20:03:26 <elliott> cheater99: considering parallels emulates a "normal" BIOS PC, I'd put the chances of that working fairly low ... but more importantly, I don't think parallels can read/write to an existing system partition
20:04:12 <cheater99> can you on mac set another partition as "bootable" like on pcs?
20:04:40 -!- pumpkin has joined.
20:05:51 <elliott> cheater99: umm, sort of. but that wouldn't help.
20:06:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:06:17 <cheater99> but then you could write grub to just the linux partition, and make that partition bootable ("sort of")
20:06:21 <oklopol> when someone talks, it crashes, i think
20:06:29 <elliott> fizzie: you didn't make it use readline did you
20:06:33 <fizzie> oklopol: I've noticed something like that too.
20:06:35 <elliott> cheater99: i already wrote grub to a partition, sort of
20:06:39 <elliott> i could only find a floppy image of grub 1
20:07:06 <cheater99> i think maybe grub 2 could be better, sort of?
20:07:16 <fizzie> Most of console.c's #ifdef'd out, it just uses the "write to file descriptor 1" approach of consolying.
20:07:28 <fizzie> (It shouldn't have the readline thread started or anything.)
20:07:42 <cheater99> Yes this is fixable by doing a smc reset. This should fix your USB ports:
20:07:42 <cheater99> Note: Portable computers that have a battery you should not remove on your own include MacBook Pro (Early 2009) and later, all models of MacBook Air, and MacBook (Late 2009).
20:07:42 <cheater99> 2. Plug in the MagSafe power adapter to a power source, connecting it to the Mac if its not already connected.
20:07:43 <cheater99> 3. On the built-in keyboard, press the (left side) Shift-Control-Option keys and the power button at the same time.
20:07:46 <cheater99> 4. Release all the keys and the power button at the same time.
20:07:50 <cheater99> 5. Press the power button to turn on the computer. Note: The LED on the MagSafe power adapter does not change states or temporarily turn-off when you reset the SMC.
20:07:55 <cheater99> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3964
20:08:07 <elliott> cheater99: what is that from. you could have just linked me.
20:08:17 <cheater99> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1465614
20:08:27 <elliott> it sounds suspiciously similar to "ZAP THE PRAM" of yore
20:08:42 <elliott> cheater99: yeah no, my usb ports work fine.
20:08:45 <elliott> "Hrrrrm...I'm having a problem with the superdrive version. After about a few minutes of booting from the Live-CD (both Ubuntu 10.04 and an old version of Gparted) the superdrive goes dead and the usb port will not work again without a COPS reset. When booted into OS X the superdrive works fine copying whole data DVD's onto the harddrive... any thoughts?"
20:08:48 <elliott> the usb ports work absolutely fine
20:09:02 <cheater99> maybe they only stop working when you're trying to boot
20:09:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there's a guy in scotland i need you to kill
20:09:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://mikemcquaid.com/
20:09:58 <cheater99> which version of macbook air do you have?
20:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't be bothered sifting through the blog; outline why he needs to die.
20:10:21 <elliott> he's complaining about my commit for stupid reasons and is a dick in other pull requests
20:10:22 <elliott> https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/3817
20:10:35 <elliott> cheater99: it is literally days old
20:11:06 <cheater99> it sounds like the time i have created a reset button for my commodore
20:11:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr imagine if you packaged ghc in a source distro, using the binaries like some other packages do in the source distro, rather than actually building from source,
20:11:12 <cheater99> EFI booting is explained in Brian Tarricones MacBookAir3,1 Gentoo install report : http://spurint.org/misc/installing-g...-macbookair31/
20:11:12 <cheater99> Basically, it requires a patch to force EFI booting in physical mode rather than virtual mode.
20:11:13 <cheater99> It's a very interesting read for anyone tweaking his/her MBA3,*
20:11:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and you got a complaint when submitting it:
20:11:19 <cheater99> source: http://art.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=10202692
20:11:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Please use the binaries to build GHC from source."
20:11:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i.e.: "Make lots of computation happen to produce bit-identical binaries."
20:11:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: note that there is no customistaion of the build possible in this case
20:11:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: this is exactly what's happening, except it's MLton which is basically the same
20:12:14 <elliott> technically MLton builds with SML/NJ, but no point downloading another compiler to build a really-slow bootstrapper.
20:12:33 <cheater99> elliott: also, are you using the usual installation iso for ubuntu, or the "alternative cd"?
20:12:50 <elliott> cheater99: the usual iso, and i don't want to use the alternative cd. i have an ethernet adapter so i can use that for the install.
20:13:03 <elliott> i don't want to efi boot, as i've said
20:13:11 <cheater99> elliott: there are people saying that they couldn't succeed with the usual but alternative worked
20:13:13 <elliott> [[If you ever make it to Sedona, AZ, I owe you a beer. Why doesn't the wiki say "You just spent an insane amount of money on Apple hardware, save yourself some pain and spring for the Superdrive and ethernet dongle" then direct folks to the Alternate CD? Would have saved me much aggravation. Thanks.]]
20:13:27 <elliott> i don't want to spend 60 fucking pounds just to install ubuntu
20:13:43 <cheater99> is alternative going to do efi boot?
20:14:07 <elliott> cheater99: i mean re that thing you quoted
20:14:40 <elliott> when i bought this i kinda assumed that ubuntu had improved mac support since 2007/2008
20:14:49 <elliott> (i realise it's not really their fault but still)
20:15:36 <cheater99> i think in london you can also loan out mac hardware probably
20:15:57 <elliott> i'm not in london. and why would i want to do that
20:16:53 <cheater99> i was gonna say go to the mac store off oxford circus and nag them until they give you a superdrive for a sec
20:18:54 <elliott> fizzie: i just wrote packet id parsing functions, then realised that this packet_type thing should really just be a packet ADT :D
20:19:08 <elliott> fizzie: except that translating that from your C will be fun since you don't name any of the packet items
20:19:53 <fizzie> You could use that Haskell implementation as a base, it has data-type-ish packets. Though I don't think I really saw much names there either.
20:20:08 <elliott> ais523: was it you i discussed zooko's triangle with? maybe not
20:20:14 <elliott> fizzie: well i don't actually need names come to think of it
20:20:16 <elliott> fizzie: got a link to that haskell?
20:20:32 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's updated to the beta protocol.
20:21:32 <fizzie> I got the early protocol bits from https://gist.github.com/727175 -- then the rest from that one wiki.)
20:21:49 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, wait, I'll have to parse every parser manually won't I if I do this.
20:23:13 <elliott> fizzie: Erm, that is, I'll have to parse even similar-parametered ones separately.
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20:31:34 <elliott> do sha512 digests ever contain nul bytes?
20:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, where does that guy you want me to kill live?
20:33:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: specifically, broughty ferry.
20:35:07 <elliott> void packet_free(gpointer packet);
20:35:11 <elliott> fizzie: Shouldn't that be packet_t *?
20:35:42 * Phantom_Hoover realises that he has no idea where Dundee actually *is*.
20:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, she refused to kidnap Edwin Brady, even though that would be far less work, so that's not likely.
20:37:37 <fizzie> I would guess approximately 22.16% of SHA-512 digests contain at least one 0 byte.
20:38:05 * Phantom_Hoover remembers, with growing horror, that he has a copy of The Emperor's New Mind.
20:38:21 <fizzie> elliott: It's a gpointer so that it can be used as a free-func in one of the containers, I forget where. (Probably the queues.)
20:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, you're re-hired as HHI Selector Of Components.
20:40:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What do they do.
20:41:22 <elliott> base(n, "0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstvuwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ")
20:41:29 <elliott> anyone got a longer digit set that doesn't have ugly shit in it? :)
20:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, which ones are ugly?
20:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, all symbols? or are some okay?
20:42:49 <Vorpal> elliott, add the greek letters
20:42:59 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you planning to use this for?
20:43:36 <elliott> Vorpal: A semi-clone of fizzie's pastebin thing, except instead of doing the useless task of URL shortening as well as pastebinning, mine does private pastebinning and image hosting.
20:43:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Except I want to make the URLs hashes, rather than evil imperative sequential IDs.
20:43:55 <elliott> But I want short-ish URLs. :P
20:44:13 <Vorpal> elliott, what about adding _ and - then?
20:44:17 <elliott> Even a 32-char prefix (of a 64-char SHA-1 hash) in base 62 (0-9a-zA-Z) gives things like "8azxrfY2khCG23lFERXRWh3i4Zu".
20:44:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Those are ugly. Especially when repeated.
20:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well at least they won't be url encoded :P
20:44:38 <elliott> 0..15 gives: ny6WsmDgQfcMWrngBmLZO6
20:44:39 <Vorpal> elliott, the greek letters would be
20:44:42 <elliott> Oh, and by -char I mean byte.
20:44:54 <elliott> How good is a 64-bit prefix of SHA-1? :P
20:45:05 <fizzie> As good as a 64-bit hash.
20:45:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, greek letters in URLs work fine, just not Greek domains. And even those might.
20:45:30 <Vorpal> elliott, they will end up encoded as %nn surely?
20:45:48 <elliott> Sheesh, even a 12-bit hash gives "ny6WsmDgQfcMWrngBmLZO6".
20:46:07 <Vorpal> elliott, a counter does have some advantages :P
20:46:14 <fizzie> I liked the "shortest unconflicting prefix, lookup oldest-first" thing, but it does have the "URLs get longer as time passes" property.
20:46:34 <elliott> fizzie: And is also EVIL and STATEFUL.
20:46:52 <elliott> fizzie: Is that what your thing does?
20:47:01 <Vorpal> elliott, just paste data uris instead. Self contained! (though it completely missed all the other points
20:47:06 <fizzie> No, I think my thing just generates a random fixed-length ID when you dont' specify one.
20:47:13 <elliott> variable: it'll look like /etc/shadow
20:47:26 <variable> elliott, ls: /etc/shadow: No such file or directory
20:47:48 <variable> why don't you just want to use a sequential numeric id?
20:48:11 <elliott> 20:46 variable: elliott, ls: /etc/shadow: No such file or directory
20:48:17 <elliott> would you have preferred I said /etc/master.passwd?
20:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that's what freebsd calls it too btw
20:48:37 <elliott> sequential numeric IDs are evil and stateful, duh.
20:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: that's why i said it.
20:48:43 <elliott> variable is a BSD zealot :p
20:48:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was what os x uses
20:49:14 <elliott> But there's probably some LDAP database somewhere that it _really_ uses. ;-)
20:49:23 <elliott> # Note that this file is consulted directly only when the system is running
20:49:23 <elliott> # in single-user mode. At other times this information is provided by
20:49:30 <Vorpal> elliott, ldap for local, so screwed
20:49:31 <variable> elliott, and more than likely it would be possible to change one and not the other
20:49:42 <elliott> Apple's Open Directory architecture includes source code for both direc-
20:49:42 <elliott> tory client access and directory servers. Open Directory forms the foun-
20:49:42 <elliott> dation of how Mac OS X accesses all authoritative configuration informa-
20:49:44 <elliott> tion (users, groups, mounts, managed desktop data, etc.). Mac OS X
20:49:45 <elliott> obtains this information via abstraction APIs, enabling use of virtually
20:49:46 * Phantom_Hoover undermines Mt. Vorpal's security system with some redstone torches and some TNT.
20:49:47 <elliott> any directory system. Configuration of Open Directory is done through
20:49:50 <elliott> the Directory Utility applications in /Applications/Utilities. This
20:49:52 <elliott> application can configure plugin settings, including turning on/off vari-
20:49:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Seems it's some custom thing.
20:49:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Woo, now we'll never get a TNT kit.
20:50:24 <fizzie> It's LDAP-compatible, though.
20:50:29 <fizzie> At least to some extent.
20:50:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I used the torches for the undermining; I simply *have* some TNT.
20:50:58 <elliott> fizzie: Apple — compatible — to some extent — never a good sign.
20:53:19 <elliott> fizzie: So, a 40 bit hash -- it'll totally last forever right?
20:53:43 <elliott> A 48-bit hash is about as high as I'l go.
20:53:45 <fizzie> You're reasonably likely to have collisions when you have around 2^20 entries.
20:54:42 <fizzie> And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?)
20:55:18 <elliott> fizzie: I'm more asking whether a 40-bit hash might cause me problems if, say, SHA-1 is broken. OK, OK, that'll only help for intentional collisions.
20:55:34 <variable> Are there any quote bots here?
20:55:43 <elliott> variable: hackego; `quote is the main command, it also greps if you give it an argument
20:55:48 <elliott> unless it's a number in which case you have to parenthesis it
20:55:50 <fizzie> If you worry about intentional collisions, 40 bits is quite bruteforceable even without breaking SHA-1.
20:56:01 <elliott> "`pastequotes [optional grep]" and "`pastenquotes" are also quite nice
20:56:10 <variable> elliott, no I want to remember one
20:56:11 <elliott> variable: are you trying to add it? :)
20:56:22 <elliott> pikhq: 40 bit prefixes of SHA-1 hashes to identify every entry in a combined pastebin/image database
20:56:33 <elliott> pikhq: or should i go for a prefix of an SHA-2 function. or just increase the size
20:56:42 <variable> elliott, will it only add the last one - or could I say to remember one from before
20:56:50 <elliott> variable: um you have to type it in manually
20:57:03 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?)
20:57:06 <variable> elliott, ah. I was thinking of something like !grab user :-}
20:58:02 <fizzie> Where is hackego, anyway?
20:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> !heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllppppppppppp
20:58:49 <Gregor> I stabbed 'im with a filet knife.
20:59:02 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:59:05 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:59:16 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?)
20:59:39 <HackEgo> 261) <fizzie> And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?)
20:59:39 <Gregor> Mine to stab and/or filet.
20:59:48 <HackEgo> 183) <ais523> you should be eating corpses more
20:59:56 <HackEgo> 32) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
20:59:58 <HackEgo> 226) <Phantom_Hoover> [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so.
21:00:00 <HackEgo> 100) <Ami> Discrimination fields ACTIVATE.
21:00:02 <HackEgo> 165) <cheater99> you don't have an urethra, you're a girl.
21:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <variable> elliott, ah. I was thinking of something like !grab user :-}
21:00:16 <elliott> The quotes are of ... mixed quality.
21:00:22 <elliott> I *did* clean them up before! but somehow it hasn't helped
21:00:51 <EgoBot> sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=5; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 bc -l | tr -d '\\'
21:01:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter grab installed.
21:02:02 <HackEgo> 209) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature. \ 212) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. \ 221) <Gregor> elliott: My university has
21:02:17 <elliott> That is, um, not quite what grab was meant to do, methinks.
21:02:31 <elliott> `quote <(elliott|ehird)[^>]+>
21:02:53 <variable> Phantom_Hoover, `grab user is supposed to `addquote the last thing user said
21:03:17 <EgoBot> Interpreter grab deleted.
21:03:20 <Gregor> Can't be done by da botses.
21:03:46 <variable> EgoBot, you got it WRONG - your missing digits
21:04:01 <Gregor> variable: They strictly react to their relevant activation character, they don't record anything else.
21:04:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Define something.
21:06:42 <HackEgo> 221) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two!
21:09:44 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think a(1) is precise up to the given "scale", it's just that it takes a(1)*4 there. See, 3.14156/4 = 0.78539; that's... well, actually that's only a truncated five-significant-digits of a(1), not a rounded one. There's that too.
21:09:55 <Vorpal> Ilari, it kept counting up insanely fast
21:10:27 <Vorpal> ineiros, I logged off when minecraft started swap trashing from it
21:10:35 <fizzie> That's a lot of players.
21:10:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, except mcmap didn't report a lot of players showing up
21:11:27 <Vorpal> and now server seems down
21:12:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, you were on just before that happened. Is it down?
21:12:08 <Vorpal> did you see the same thing?
21:13:32 <oerjan> ...there really _are_ no quotes by him?
21:13:53 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 19) <oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly. \ 21) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really
21:14:08 <oerjan> i don't think that grep is entirely accurate...
21:14:54 <elliott> i think < may be a special char
21:15:01 <elliott> or maybe it's still broken
21:15:04 <elliott> i think it was broken at one point
21:15:04 <oerjan> elliott: [<]oe should have matched <oerjan>, no?
21:15:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6107
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21:18:50 <elliott> could file(1) be enough to detect programming languages, I wonder?
21:19:54 <Vorpal> elliott, for some certainly: #!/bin/sh is a definitely clue for the first line
21:20:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean with the default db -- I recall file tells me "C source" sometimes
21:20:15 <elliott> but the file here I have is OS X file which is ~limited, so i'll ssh into rutian to check
21:20:24 <variable> elliott, you need to have a good magic database
21:20:30 <variable> but yes - it could be good enough
21:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The order in which Oolite loads OXPs is non-deterministic.
21:20:41 <variable> elliott, but if you want something even better - look at ohloh
21:20:42 <elliott> well ubuntu file can't detect ruby code at least
21:20:50 <Vorpal> elliott, but then it identifies charset and such, and that isn't using the magic db iirc
21:21:03 <elliott> variable: ohloh tends to get things wildly wrong in my experience :-D
21:21:12 <elliott> variable: and i doubt they have some open source software to do the magic
21:21:33 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly ohloh mixes up C and C++, though it was worse before
21:21:48 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes their software for doing that is/was FOSS
21:21:57 <elliott> their site is hell to navigate so links would be nice :D
21:21:58 <Vorpal> it does basic line counting stuff too
21:22:08 <Vorpal> elliott, google for "ohcount" iirc
21:22:22 <elliott> all I need is language detection for single streams of text, for my pastebin
21:22:24 <variable> http://sourceforge.net/p/ohloh/oh-count/ci/452d902d8f69afc10eecb2e382b0f39cc2342e92/tree/
21:22:28 <elliott> I imagine using the file extension would be more practical, though :)
21:22:53 <elliott> huh, that does not look like normal sourceforge.
21:23:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: this semi-useless site.
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21:29:36 * Phantom_Hoover decides to poke into Oolite's code just to show that fixing the loading order would be trivial.
21:29:56 <oerjan> > fix((0:).tail.(([[0,1],[1,0]]!!)=<<))
21:29:58 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0,1,1,0,0,1,0,...
21:30:14 <variable> elliott, ohloh used to be owned by sourceforge
21:30:22 <elliott> variable: oh. that explains the suckage.
21:30:27 <oklopol> hmmhm, so i guess fizzie stopped working on the win version
21:30:38 <elliott> you just didn't redownload
21:30:39 <elliott> i even pinged you about it
21:30:56 <oklopol> i think i downloaded that version and it didn't wokr
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21:31:06 <oklopol> at least i downloaded one after fizzie said it works
21:31:14 <oklopol> unfortunately it crashed when someone talked
21:31:26 <elliott> oklopol: didn't he redo it
21:31:31 <oklopol> so i can prolly use it now
21:31:41 <oklopol> i'll just hope none of you play today
21:32:21 <fizzie> No, I didn't "redo" it, since I'm not sure why it crashes.
21:32:31 <fizzie> I'll try to get it working, though.
21:32:43 <fizzie> But not today; I'll be un-internetted fri/sat/sun, and have to do some packing before.
21:33:06 <fizzie> It's comforting to know that when it crashes in Wine, it in fact crashes also in real life, because then I can perhaps test it locally too.
21:35:06 <elliott> fizzie: how can you ever be uninternetted WHY
21:35:17 <elliott> wait are you moving, can i come visit, oklopol will come too
21:35:29 <fizzie> No, no, it's just the Stockholm trip I mentioned.
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21:38:57 <elliott> fizzie: so err i don't quite understand zpaste, does it store pastes in files
21:39:40 <fizzie> Named after, well, the name.
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21:49:46 <cheater99> are we talking about the stockholm syndrome?
21:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you have failed in your duties as Selector Of Components.
21:58:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's your budget again? £3?
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21:59:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wasn't it £800?
22:00:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And ... general requirements? :P
22:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't crash when I play Oolite with the Griff ships.
22:01:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could get that for £300. :p
22:05:52 <elliott> pikhq: When taking a short (40 or 48-bit) prefix of a hash function, is it best to take a prefix of SHA-1 or one of the SHA-2 functions? If the latter, which?
22:06:25 <oklopol> how do you usually walk from the cube, or do you always /spawn?
22:06:57 <elliott> oklopol: walk from to where
22:07:23 <oklopol> well, anywhere, it's pretty disconnected from the others
22:07:33 <oklopol> which are mostly near spawn
22:08:40 <elliott> hmm i wonder where mount hoover is relative to cube
22:08:43 <elliott> i think it's quite close in one axis
22:08:49 <elliott> and a bit of a walk in the other
22:10:32 <elliott> oklopol: i'd just walk back to spawn really
22:10:48 <elliott> oklopol: i'd walk to ineiros and use the minecart system ... except getting into ineiros' pit from below is hard
22:11:01 <oklopol> yeah, that's why i'm asking
22:11:03 <elliott> but the minecart system is connected to pretty much anywhere, so if you get on there you're golden, assuming lag is low enough
22:11:18 <elliott> oklopol: you could make a hole outside ineiros' pit that leads near the minecart station there :D
22:11:19 <Deewiant> The track to my place is probably nearest, it's how I go to the cube.
22:11:20 <oklopol> because i couldn't find a way there, so anyway i decided i'll just walk at random until i find something, it's worked for me sofar
22:11:31 <elliott> after all Phantom_Hoover did the connecting, not ineiros
22:11:39 <elliott> Deewiant: you go to your house, and then walk to the cube?
22:11:45 <elliott> that must take a long time surely
22:11:54 <Deewiant> No, I start from spawn, minecart to around x = -200, then walk the rest.
22:12:47 <elliott> Deewiant: er how, the express doesn't have any stops?
22:12:50 <elliott> do you just sit there monitoring F3
22:13:01 <elliott> Deewiant: how do you get out
22:13:28 <Deewiant> I've dug two sets of stairs out (the second because I couldn't find the first; at the top I noticed it was about two blocks to the side)
22:13:29 <elliott> Deewiant: how I do it is: go to ineiros, jump out the northern end, walk over the tiny hill there, then just go west to the cube (about 400 zs away)
22:13:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what's your way?
22:13:45 <Deewiant> My way is probably faster than yours then
22:13:50 <Deewiant> Given that it's also around 400 zs
22:13:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh sort of.
22:13:55 <elliott> i don't really use it much :D
22:14:12 <elliott> Deewiant: yeah but mine doesn't involve holding down F3 and gettin' all twichy
22:14:19 <pikhq> The US military is *cutting its budget*.
22:14:26 <elliott> pikhq: also, hell is chilly
22:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Turn it on, with map mode, then walk to fizzie's, then to that weird dirt thing in the sky, then to the Hall of Midas, then to the cube.
22:14:43 <Deewiant> elliott: It's not twitchy, just click once at around 200. :-P
22:15:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "weird dirt thing in the sky"?
22:16:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you mean the one with the tree?
22:16:16 <j-invariant> elliott: "Indeed, the pretty printer is too stupid to rename identifiers in case of clash. The result is incomprehensible output as you witnessed. A possible workaround is to try and name identifiers everywhere in the input.
22:16:28 <elliott> j-invariant: where's that from :D
22:16:37 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/dependent_types/comments/efb3y/micro_agda_a_simplistic_language_with_native/c1bolme?context=3
22:16:39 <elliott> pikhq: PREFIX SHA-1 OR SHA-2
22:16:53 <pikhq> BECAUSE HIGHER NUMBERS ARE BETTER DOOD
22:17:02 <elliott> ais523: do you know anything about this
22:18:23 <pikhq> $178 billion cut in war spending.
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22:18:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Partly to make the US budget more balanced, partly because it's a bunch of stuff that is completely unneeded.
22:19:33 <pikhq> And Republicans are upset about it.
22:19:38 <pikhq> "We're in two wars!"
22:19:54 <elliott> j-invariant: i love how that reddit discussion is about the difficult task of proving that 0 is not 1
22:19:58 <pikhq> ... And nearly insolvent, and the military budget is half the budget.
22:20:33 <fizzie> There is indeed a weird dirt thing; I've wondered about it. What's it supposed to be?
22:20:47 <j-invariant> elliott: thies thing has horrible code duplication
22:20:58 <oklopol> but even with the usual set theoretic construction definition of complex numbers, isn't 0 != 1 trivial?
22:21:03 <j-invariant> elliott: yeah you can't prove that in this language :P
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22:21:16 <oklopol> i know 1 != 2 is almost direct at least
22:21:20 <elliott> j-invariant: hey it represents dependent values as their folds
22:21:34 <elliott> oklopol: lol @ specifying it on complexes
22:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I just know that from it you can see the Hall of Midas on the map.
22:22:01 <oklopol> if you use something like successor functions, then 0 != 1 is basically by def
22:22:10 <elliott> pikhq: sha-224, 256, 384 or 512
22:22:18 <oklopol> and if you're doing reals, might as well do complexes
22:22:56 <oklopol> or probably it's trivial but hell of a chore for some technical reason?
22:23:10 <pikhq> elliott: Laik, higher numbers better
22:23:28 <elliott> pikhq: laik, clearly the 512 thing has all its hash info spread out whereas 256 is more compact
22:23:34 <elliott> so taking a prefix of 256 is more useful
22:24:02 <oklopol> so it's by definition, but you can't access the definition
22:24:14 <elliott> 00:51:58 <AnMaster> I have decided to use spivak on IRC, all over.
22:24:16 <elliott> Vorpal: that didn't work out
22:24:29 <elliott> j-invariant: can you prove true /= false in uagda?
22:26:09 <fizzie> elliott: Well, SHA-224 == SHA-256 except with different initial state and it's "pre-truncated" by omitting one 32-bit word at the end, so for truncation purposes it's pretty likely SHA-224 and SHA-256 are essentially equivalent; the same for SHA-384 vs. SHA-512.
22:26:38 <fizzie> The truncated versions aren't even any faster to compute.
22:26:41 <elliott> fizzie: Well, right. I'm just wondering whether it's better to take a small prefix of SHA-1, SHA-256, or HSA
22:26:57 <elliott> j-invariant: can you prove (\sf zf -> zf) /= (\n sf zf -> sf (n sf zf)) in Coq given uhh I forget the name of the axiom
22:27:06 <elliott> forall f g,(f=g)<->(forall x, f x = g x)
22:27:33 <elliott> (exists x, f x /= gx) -> (f/=g) from that
22:28:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If and only if it's lined with obsidian.
22:28:22 <elliott> I do not want any "accidental" breakages that leave LavaLite flooded everywhere.
22:28:35 <j-invariant> this is so annoying, I can't see how to make this code print out names properly
22:29:24 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: that didn't work out <-- indeed
22:29:45 <elliott> i might just start calling everyone and everything "it"
22:29:45 <oklopol> what's the biggest cave in the world?
22:30:02 <elliott> there are tons of massive cavern systems that keep connecting to things you didn't know about :D
22:30:08 <oklopol> sorry, manmade hole in earth
22:30:28 <oklopol> i mean in terms of blocks removed
22:30:36 <oklopol> i guess the whole fucking system is connected
22:30:53 <fizzie> Most of that is "natural" cavernetics, though.
22:31:01 <oklopol> but anyway, at subtree, the actual number of blocks removed did not look like that much
22:31:07 <fizzie> I would think Vorpal's mines have the largest number of blocks removed.
22:31:24 <elliott> oklopol: well ineiros' pit basically... vorpal's mines don't count as holes since
22:31:31 <elliott> i don't know what they count as; a diagnosis?
22:31:38 <oklopol> erm, ineiros' pit is not very big
22:31:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the old mines?
22:31:44 <fizzie> oklopol: It's very deep, though.
22:31:46 <elliott> oklopol: um it goes down to near bedrock
22:31:53 <elliott> oklopol: very near in fact
22:32:02 <elliott> oklopol: and it's on a high mountain
22:32:09 <oklopol> i've built like 10 caves like that, never from a mountain tho
22:32:15 <oklopol> but point is, that is not that many blocks
22:32:18 <Vorpal> <elliott> oklopol: well ineiros' pit basically... vorpal's mines don't count as holes since <-- why not
22:32:25 <elliott> Vorpal: because they're not hollow
22:32:38 <oklopol> possibly never as big, because i just do it when i wanna start underground mining
22:32:51 <oklopol> i mean, in area, which of course means much less blocks
22:33:20 <elliott> oklopol: well. the stairs aren't really holes
22:33:23 <elliott> they're ... diagonal holes :D
22:34:07 <fizzie> oklopol: http://zem.fi/~fis/miney.png -- that thing top-right is I think parts of Vorpal's mines. (But I'm no expert on them.)
22:34:25 <fizzie> The mine tunnels aren't that many blocks either, I guess.
22:34:41 <fizzie> But I don't think we have very large man-made holes there.
22:34:42 <oklopol> more than ineiros' pit surely
22:35:19 <oklopol> they were definitely tons longer than 128
22:35:38 <j-invariant> people should just fix their code for me :(
22:35:40 <oklopol> and maybe like sixth of the area? can't really assess
22:36:26 <Vorpal> <fizzie> oklopol: http://zem.fi/~fis/miney.png -- that thing top-right is I think parts of Vorpal's mines. (But I'm no expert on them.) <-- yep
22:36:33 <fizzie> oklopol: It's composed of rather thin tunnels, though.
22:37:16 <oklopol> so if i make mines like that, people can just look at them with an editor?
22:37:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice view of my tree farm too there.
22:37:33 <fizzie> It's hard to get a good grasp of block-volumes from the slices generated by mcmap.
22:37:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, fizzie is using mcmap
22:37:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have no clue about the block volumes either
22:37:56 <oklopol> i thought you needed to have been there, but clearly fizzie hasn't gone to your mines
22:38:20 <elliott> fizzie: so do i prefix SHA-1, SHA-256 or SHA-512 INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW
22:38:23 <fizzie> oklopol: I have, in fact, but I didn't this time. The region shown there is the region the server sends chunks for when you stand there in the middle.
22:38:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, he is on ground somewhere near
22:38:27 <elliott> oklopol: you just need to go close enough
22:38:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: On top of your mountain, in fact.
22:39:37 <fizzie> Random thought: I could have mcmap generate a "minecraft-compatible" world-dump, though; then you could "play" in there, and also run all those pretty-picture offline mapmakers if you wanted. (Though of course only the regions you had walked around in mcmap.)
22:40:15 <fizzie> I've forgotten whether you got the terrain-generation seed out of the handshake packets; it might've been there. (And it might have not.)
22:40:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, even if you do, my mines are in pre-halloween but iirc a tiny section crosses into post-halloween
22:41:31 <fizzie> Yes, you'd get discontinuatitities there, but less. And of course I could make mcmap able to "overwrite" an existing world-dump if you already went and moved around in there.
22:41:49 <fizzie> Yes, the map seed is in fact there.
22:42:42 <fizzie> Incidentally, I did put a launcher-option-setting dialog in the win32 port, with pure win32 api. Mwah-ahaha. (But I didn't fix the crashing bugs. Priorities, priorities...)
22:43:28 <elliott> fizzie: Ooh, ooh, make sure to misspell words, make the padding all weird, have checkboxes for things that should be radio buttons, and ideally have only one button, "Do it", and have the actual action controlled by other elements of the interface.
22:43:37 <elliott> fizzie: Writing "Username:" as "UserName :" gets extra bonus points.
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22:43:48 <fizzie> It is very weird when it comes to control-positioning.
22:44:04 <elliott> fizzie: As well as using a title like "::[ McMAP v.3.2 ] by fizzie:: [Connect]"
22:45:23 <j-invariant> elliott: would it be cheeky to fix the bug in such a horrible way that he feels the need to rewrite the whole thing better rather than applying it?
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22:45:48 <elliott> j-invariant: you social engineer, you
22:46:57 <elliott> j-invariant: please tell me you can get quuxquuxquux
22:47:42 <elliott> j-invariant: why not just make it use '
22:50:39 <elliott> pikhq: Coreutils in HASKELL -- best idea or worst idea or worst idea or best worst idea
22:50:52 <pikhq> elliott: Both. Simultaneously.
22:51:02 <elliott> pikhq: HERE'S MY CAT IMPLEMENTATION
22:51:09 <elliott> main = putStr =<< getContents
22:51:22 <elliott> oh wait should probably disable buffering before doing that
22:52:05 <elliott> pikhq: well i have something to tell you brother
22:52:18 <elliott> TOO PUSSY FOR THAT? WELL THEN FUCK OFF
22:52:30 <pikhq> Well, that makes cat useless...
22:54:23 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ <foo.sml
22:54:23 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$
22:54:27 <elliott> I don't know what shell that works on.
22:54:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. It's like a cat: it repeats everything you say.
22:54:44 <elliott> Or was that a parrot? Same thing, anyway.
22:55:02 <pikhq> elliott: Huh, thought most shells did that.
22:55:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT IS GREAT it says "polly wants a cracker" a lot and sometimes i let it out of its cage.
22:55:08 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it does work in zsh.
22:55:10 <elliott> pikhq: using bash 3 here :D
22:55:18 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, zsh is totally crazy with pipelines.
22:55:22 <elliott> pikhq: Try this: "cat <x <y <z".
22:55:27 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, "<x <y <z" should work.
22:55:33 <elliott> Yes, zsh has cat built into its pipelines.
22:55:35 <elliott> Because it's fucking crazy.
22:55:44 <pikhq> Sure enough, it does.
22:55:44 <elliott> pikhq: Did I mention that multiple outputs does "tee"?
22:55:53 <pikhq> And yes, I'm well aware of that.
22:56:06 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air% <foo.sml <foo.sml >x >y
22:56:07 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air% <x <y
22:56:07 <elliott> fun main = print "Hello, world!\n"
22:56:08 <elliott> fun main = print "Hello, world!\n"
22:56:10 <elliott> fun main = print "Hello, world!\n"
22:56:12 <elliott> fun main = print "Hello, world!\n"
22:56:36 <Mathnerd314> just another example of the shift from libraries tolanguages
22:57:13 <elliott> zsh has always been crazy, there's no "shift"
22:57:19 <elliott> and shells hardly have "libraries"
22:57:22 <elliott> they've always built shit in.
22:57:49 <elliott> fizzie: DO I PREFIX SHA-1, SHA-256, OR SHA-512, I AM LITERALLY IMPLODING RIGHT NOW?
23:00:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the question is whether more people use zsh
23:01:17 <j-invariant> right now maybe I can figure out this silly thing
23:02:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: than weak shells with less-powerful input languages
23:03:03 <elliott> Mathnerd314: zsh is vastly less popular than bash. also, a less bloated shell is not "weaker".
23:03:09 <elliott> shells are, after all, an interface to unix.
23:03:22 <elliott> "<x <y <z" is also something you would never see in zsh on its own; "cat x y z" does the job perfectly well.
23:04:06 <elliott> ">x >y" is also fairly pointless as "| tee x >y" does the job just as well.
23:04:44 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, right, that. Well, I mean, theoretically speaking SHA-512 will have a larger safety margin (more rounds and so on) when it comes to getting breaked so that you can solve it faster than brute-force, but if your truncation is small enough to be practically bruteforceable then it really doesn't matter.
23:05:38 <elliott> fizzie: sha256 is a lot faster, at least (when applied to large images; though I am using the hideously efficient pure library. I'll try a binding.)
23:06:08 <fizzie> I might just go with a truncated SHA-256, it's cheaper to compute than SHA-512 and all. And I'm sure hashing speed will of course be your bottleneck.
23:06:25 <elliott> fizzie: It will, yes, my network is instant.
23:07:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have a feeling that OS X users tend to use zsh. I don't know why.
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23:07:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I blame your heritage.
23:07:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what will you do in case of a collision?
23:07:42 <pikhq> elliott: That combines with every *other* redirection thing, though.
23:07:53 <Vorpal> elliott, on the truncated hash I mean
23:07:58 <elliott> Vorpal: *** OH GOD HASH COLLISION: WHY GOD WHY
23:08:07 <elliott> Vorpal: The likely of a hash collision with 40 or 48 bits is pretty unlikely :p
23:08:09 <pikhq> elliott: >(x) >(y)
23:08:14 <elliott> If I wasn't _specifically_ trying to break shit.
23:08:19 <Vorpal> elliott, so it will properly refuse upload of the collided file then?
23:08:20 <elliott> pikhq: Clearly | should be sugar for >(...).
23:08:24 <oerjan> <elliott> main = putStr =<< getContents <-- you mean main = interact id >:)
23:08:29 <elliott> oerjan: i was considering that :)
23:08:39 <Vorpal> elliott, how will it handle exact dupe
23:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: What do you mean. Uploading the same file twice?
23:08:58 <elliott> It'll just barf out and say there's a hash collision, probably. :p
23:09:09 <elliott> I might make it say "This has already been added! ...or else there's a hash collision."
23:09:13 <elliott> It is, after all, single-user.
23:11:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, why leave the game? :/
23:11:54 <j-invariant> elliott: after before before http://pastebin.com/swa5r518
23:11:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Early morning tomorrow, have a boat to catch.
23:12:23 <elliott> fizzie: a boat? you so zany
23:12:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, hope it doesn't break. But in case it does bring 4 wood
23:12:27 <elliott> fizzie: don't finns have zeppelins
23:12:59 <elliott> anyone know a country with lax border checks?
23:13:02 <elliott> we can have an esoteric meetup there
23:14:21 <Sgeo> elliott, what's your opinion of TinyCore?
23:14:23 <oerjan> elliott: you cannot have zeppelins in worlds where the nazis have lost the war, duh
23:14:36 <fizzie> elliott: You only need about a million pasted items before the probability of having at least one collision in there starts to get close to 50%, for a 40-bit hash.
23:14:45 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not called TinyCore, for one.
23:14:53 <elliott> oerjan: untrue (c.f. His Dark Materials)
23:14:59 <oerjan> simple time traveler axiom
23:15:13 <oerjan> elliott: i haven't read that SO IT DOESN'T EXIST
23:15:17 <oklopol> how rare is clay? i don't remember seeing any on your map before this, and all i've done is walked around at random for hours
23:15:18 <fizzie> I guess for private use it's not too bad.
23:15:30 <fizzie> oklopol: Quite a lot of nearby clay has been snarfed up.
23:15:47 * Phantom_Hoover is very upset that zeppelins never took off (har har).
23:15:52 <fizzie> (But it is a bit on the rare side too.)
23:16:11 <oklopol> i don't never be in the near.
23:16:39 <fizzie> Clay pretty much only happens near sandy beaches.
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23:16:54 <Sgeo> Did I even eat breakfast today?
23:16:57 <Sgeo> I don't think so
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23:17:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Clay pretty much only happens near sandy beaches. <-- also in deserts
23:17:26 <elliott> oerjan: you'd hate his dark materials, it's preachy-atheist :)
23:17:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: but i thought they were the bomb!
23:18:11 <j-invariant> stick + coal --> burning torch ... makes sense
23:18:54 <fizzie> And four ingots of iron and a pile of redstone dust -> compass! Also obvious!
23:19:48 <fizzie> A diamond inside some planks -> jukebox! Equally clear!
23:20:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly you mash a quarter of a bit of coal into a quarter of a stick.
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23:20:54 <fizzie> You have to place a torch before it starts giving out any light. Obvious!
23:21:04 <oerjan> to light stick, right click
23:21:12 -!- elliott has joined.
23:21:54 <fizzie> (Though did the better-light mod add a carried-torch light source too? Maybe I am just imagining things. There is at least one handheld-torch-light mod.)
23:22:14 <fizzie> oerjan: But where should I write "click" to?
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23:22:47 <elliott> j-invariant: met a creeper yet?
23:22:55 <elliott> fizzie: no, better light doesn't add that
23:23:23 -!- BMG has joined.
23:23:26 <j-invariant> yes I drilled into the side of a mountain and there was a lava stream below so I went that way and then this guy jumps out of nowhere and blows up right next to me LOL
23:23:39 <elliott> j-invariant: did you see his face
23:23:42 <elliott> j-invariant: his horrifying
23:23:44 <elliott> j-invariant: horrifying face
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23:25:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you just broke oklopol trying to get coord when you spoke
23:26:02 <Vorpal> he *just* rejoined with mcmap
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23:32:19 <cheater99> nice, gdmflexiserver has an easter egg
23:33:19 <elliott> cheater99: btw i'm just gonna buy a superdrive
23:33:32 <elliott> i've already given apple >£1k, what's £60 more, sigh
23:33:39 <cheater99> elliott: i thought in case you ever need to measure \pi in a rudimentary setup that only has sh and gdmflexiserver.
23:35:25 <cheater99> elliott: ubuntu is free, think of it as still being cheaper than windows vista.. and you get a free disk drive!
23:35:44 <cheater99> today i found out we've got a 10" hard drive in another room
23:36:03 <cheater99> it's huge and bulky and the metal casing is like 2cm thick cast iron
23:36:28 <cheater99> it could survive an atomic blast ez
23:38:17 <variable> http://rigaux.org/language-study/syntax-across-languages --> people here might be interested
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00:04:45 -!- Behold has joined.
00:07:52 <elliott> cheater99: make the fans quieter :(
00:07:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:17:03 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iatv18rAK-k
00:19:14 <j-invariant> fill your house with water so that you don't have to worry about firwes?
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00:27:03 <elliott> j-invariant: just worry about drowning
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00:35:29 <j-invariant> is it possible to download minecraft worlds that people have made?
00:36:05 <elliott> people occasionally put them up
00:54:26 <Sgeo> Margarie may have won the war, but she hasn't won the battle
00:55:22 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVyDDXWRs7k
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01:02:15 <elliott> cheater00: lolno, why would i be, yes os x, why?
01:02:20 <cheater00> elliott: i know there's a fix for ubuntu :D
01:02:42 <elliott> cheater00: i think it's not a thing that needs fixing, i think it's just that this thing is optimised for silence when you do nothing and then raging fans when you do
01:02:45 <elliott> because of insufficient cooling otherwise
01:02:57 <cheater00> our society supports anything that's expendable
01:02:57 <elliott> because real mac users don't play minecraft
01:03:13 <cheater00> there's a crazy raging fans fix for ubuntu
01:03:25 <cheater00> also what helps is one of those stands
01:03:31 <cheater00> just put something under it so that it has air under it
01:03:42 <cheater00> you know, macbook air.. works better with air amirite?
01:04:27 <elliott> just louder than i'd like :>
01:04:38 <elliott> cheater00: actually i position one leg to cover the vent.
01:04:44 <cheater00> i have a core duo laptop which is supersilent (since i put in a new hdd)
01:04:53 <elliott> the toshiba was nice and silent.
01:04:56 <cheater00> and i have a core 2 duo pc next to it which is inaudible
01:05:02 <elliott> i have a feeling they used smaller fans in this to save space.
01:05:11 <cheater00> this one's some sort of crappy old advent thing that my stupid drughead flatmate left behind
01:05:18 <cheater00> i took it because he thought it was broken
01:05:28 <cheater00> he left it because he thought it was broken, and i took it.
01:05:47 <cheater00> it was broken in that there was a virus that would reboot your pc after 5 minutes.
01:06:07 <cheater00> i'm surprised they even fit any fans into the thing
01:07:19 <elliott> i'm gonna build that super-powerful silent pc sometime. sometime. :p
01:07:36 <elliott> cheater00: ah, you misunderstand how perfectionist I am
01:07:47 <elliott> cheater00: I have spent many, many hours reading random, beyond-obscure topics on silentpcreview
01:07:50 <elliott> worried about LCD whine even
01:07:50 <cheater00> you misunderstand how perfectionist *i* am
01:07:55 <elliott> cheater00: let's put it this way
01:08:14 <elliott> cheater00: if it doesn't have an expensive AMD CPU (AMDs are of course ridiculously hot), and a good graphics card, it's imperfect, BUT ALSO if it has a _single_ fan it's imperfect
01:08:21 <elliott> it must be completely solid state apart from the bulk storage drive
01:08:28 <elliott> which will be in a quietening enclosure.
01:08:39 <elliott> cheater00: don't wish to support intel's business practices any more.
01:08:46 <elliott> AMDs are hot and not as fancy, but *shrug*
01:08:56 <elliott> cheater00: higher than an intel :)
01:09:21 <cheater00> i just put my hand on the heatsink of this pc..
01:09:40 <cheater00> it's like, "this tea is getting cold" warm
01:10:15 <elliott> cheater00: you realise that even silentpcreview's work pc in the anechoic chamber used when monitoring the dBA levels of equipment and shit ...
01:10:18 <cheater00> the loudest thing in this pc is inarguably the power supply..
01:10:20 <elliott> one single, 140mm case fan.
01:10:29 <elliott> i consider even _that_ unacceptable.
01:10:34 <elliott> cheater00: oh yeah, i really want a solid-state PSU too
01:10:42 <elliott> I don't know of a 400W solid state one
01:10:48 <cheater00> do you know what microphonics are?
01:11:03 <elliott> cheater00: is the psu fanless?
01:11:16 <elliott> cheater00: i have been unable to find a fanless psu of that wattag
01:11:20 <elliott> cheater00: do you have a case fan?
01:12:35 <cheater00> and further revisions make it even quieter
01:12:40 <cheater00> but this switching noise that it has..
01:12:51 <elliott> cheater00: ah, so one of the ooold ones
01:13:09 <elliott> the site linked in that 2003 review is squatted
01:13:20 <elliott> cheater00: btw i was considering a copper heatpipe + big radiator solution
01:13:25 <elliott> cheater00: what cpu/gpu do you have?
01:13:34 <elliott> cheater00: ah. our second links differ.
01:13:39 <elliott> this is why lmgtfy is bad ;)
01:13:41 <cheater00> and the fastest geforce i could get at the time
01:13:54 <elliott> so no fans at all, right? just checking :D
01:14:18 <cheater00> there's a fan between the cpu and graphic card heatsinks
01:14:43 <elliott> cheater00: i would buy a zalman totally-no-noise but they're not sold any more
01:14:49 <elliott> variable: silent pc nerdery
01:14:52 <cheater00> it actually does not have enough mechanical impedance to transfer any sound
01:15:01 <elliott> cheater00: everything that moves sounds.
01:15:08 <elliott> things that move are the enemy.
01:15:18 <cheater00> you're talking to someone who knows a lot about acoustic engineering
01:15:31 <elliott> cheater00: what if i want to use my computer in a vacuum, asshole
01:16:03 <elliott> what if i live in an anechoic chamber
01:16:11 <cheater00> first of all, the electrolyte in capacitors would be instantly sucked out through the ventilation perforation
01:16:40 <cheater00> second of all, the heatsinks would not be able to give away the heat because they're not touching any matter
01:16:52 <elliott> what if i live in an anechoic chamber
01:17:16 <cheater00> well, if you're a bat that's fine because bats hear supersonics
01:17:50 <cheater00> and fans by the fact of their design drop in acoustic coupling performance as frequency goes up
01:18:16 <cheater00> if you stick your ear next to the fan at a very specific angle
01:18:22 <cheater00> and that has to be measured with a laser
01:18:54 <cheater00> then i can hear a barely audible rumble of say maybe 5 hz
01:19:09 <cheater00> if you did that you couldn't hear anything, because your hearing ain't good nuff
01:19:50 <cheater00> i bet with a slightly bigger heatsink it could be possible to run this pc fanless
01:19:59 <cheater00> it's the graphic card that does all the heat, not the cpu
01:20:04 <elliott> cheater00: the problem is that without the airflow everything breaks down :(
01:20:09 <cheater00> if the newest graphic cards are better with that it's nice
01:20:20 <elliott> cheater00: graphics cards are getting hotter
01:21:17 <elliott> cheater00: anyway it's more psychological, i could _feeeel_ that fan moving
01:21:20 <cheater00> i need to connect a keyboard to that pc.
01:21:21 <elliott> cheater00: have you looked into heatpipe solutions
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01:22:24 <elliott> cheater00: i was considering passive watercooling but realised that pumps make noise
01:22:54 <cheater00> it's the hottest running graphics card ever
01:23:07 <cheater00> and i put the slowest ever fan possible on it
01:23:33 <cheater00> then you could get something that can be run fanless
01:23:44 <cheater00> and then put a convection stack on your cpu
01:24:03 <cheater00> it's actually very simple, you just take a drain pipe
01:24:13 <elliott> cheater00: i'm probably going for a scythe of similar size to http://www.crazypc.com/images/coolers/cpu/prolimatech/megahfull.jpg
01:24:26 <elliott> i may want to have this pc horizontal
01:24:31 <elliott> i don't trust things like that to hang :D
01:24:51 <cheater00> but the fan works properly only when the fins are vertical
01:25:00 <cheater00> which means the whole pc has to be
01:25:20 <elliott> that's not actually a scythe
01:25:21 <cheater00> i did everything with thermalright
01:25:30 <elliott> i have this internal thermalright => shit mapping
01:25:33 <elliott> maybe it's thermaltake i'm thinking of
01:25:50 <elliott> what's wrong with scythe, i like scythe
01:25:56 <cheater00> you use thermalright if you want things to be right
01:26:04 <cheater00> well, i did everything with thermalright and it worked well
01:26:12 <cheater00> i don't have this experience with scythe coolers
01:26:20 <cheater00> i have a scythe hdd enclosure which is the best ever
01:26:32 <cheater00> but i know nothing of their coolers
01:26:34 <elliott> cheater00: http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/053/scnj3000-detail.html
01:26:44 <elliott> cheater00: they're mostly of the gigantic fucking heatpipes variety :D
01:27:02 <cheater00> except thermalright also does something very useful
01:27:20 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMC-m0sjsM
01:27:26 <cheater00> which help a lot with cpus even thought you'd think they wouldn't
01:27:29 <elliott> http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=33&lng=en <-- the most fans i will allow in my pc is one (1) of these
01:27:32 <cheater00> but every cpu gets equally hot on both sides
01:27:34 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to MinecraftVideoBo.
01:27:38 <cheater00> so the underside catches a lot of warmth
01:28:11 <cheater00> noctua have just come up with a new one
01:28:29 <elliott> that's the biggest one on their products page
01:28:37 <elliott> erm isn't the 140mm one quite old
01:28:48 <cheater00> yeah but it didn't exist back before time
01:29:00 <elliott> i don't trust myself to apply thermal paste, will be fun
01:29:06 <cheater00> also now they do this jaded fin thing
01:29:16 <elliott> "oh i just sorta... put an icing of it on"
01:29:19 <cheater00> there's a special procedure you do with thermal paste
01:29:21 <elliott> "the cooler is kinda wedged in the goop"
01:29:27 <elliott> yeah you make a pea ball and crush it w/ the heatsink
01:29:45 <elliott> that's what spcr tells me :>
01:29:46 <cheater00> not one person i've spoken to actually knows their shit on how to do that
01:30:04 <elliott> right, i trust you, mr. other random person on the internet
01:30:11 <elliott> more than the original, mr. three random people on the internet
01:30:50 <cheater00> yeah well buy a weak graphics card and you can have it without
01:31:02 <elliott> cheater00: heatpipes bitch
01:31:10 <elliott> cheater00: how much RAM DO YOU HAVE EH
01:31:18 <oklopol> i'd like to insert MY heatpipe in a bitch
01:31:21 <elliott> cheater00: hahahahahahahahahaha
01:31:30 <cheater00> that's because i still run 32 bit windoze sometimes
01:31:42 <elliott> 32 bit windoze boots with >4 gig anyway doesn't it
01:32:00 <cheater00> well back then that was what i was using most of the time
01:32:23 <elliott> cheater00: its funny because im getting 12 to 16 gigs because i love excess
01:32:39 <elliott> cheater00: the part list i got for bsmnt had 12 gigs, so really i just need to top him in _some_ way
01:32:45 <elliott> maybe "not sounding like a jet"
01:33:24 <elliott> he said he wanted a new computer, i produced a list of parts out of my ass^W^Wnewegg
01:33:27 <cheater00> i see it, i still don't know what it is
01:33:29 <elliott> surprisingly they worked first time
01:33:33 <cheater00> did you tell him to dd if=/dev/urandom ?
01:33:41 -!- MinecraftVideoBo has changed nick to Sgeo.
01:33:44 <elliott> i think he still uses that box
01:33:53 <Sgeo> What's a Sgeo?
01:34:07 <elliott> i kinda set myself up for a fal lthough he has an intel ssd, i7 cpu, 12 gigs of ram...
01:34:09 <elliott> i can beat him on gfx card
01:34:12 <elliott> he has some shitty passive thing
01:34:49 <elliott> it's not my fault they're thin, fuck off
01:35:15 <cheater00> <elliott> NOooOOOOooooooooooooooooooo11!!!!
01:35:38 <cheater00> there's some sikrit tipz to having a quiet pc
01:36:03 <cheater00> the most sikrit tip is to not have a psu in your case
01:36:12 <elliott> cheater00: FUNNY i'ma violate that tip
01:36:18 <elliott> things i hate that aren't sound: WIRES
01:36:49 <cheater00> won't have such a silent pc then huh
01:37:27 <elliott> cheater00: or i could just put it in the case and
01:37:30 <elliott> cheater00: here's the clever bit
01:37:35 <elliott> cheater00: you know what i would do?
01:37:41 <elliott> cheater00: i would cut off the back of my case
01:37:51 <elliott> am i genius? i am genius? yes, i am genius
01:38:00 <elliott> cheater00: buy me some heatpipes
01:38:12 <Sgeo> ya no has to be my favorite phrase in Spanish
01:38:19 <Sgeo> Even though I forgot what it means
01:38:59 <cheater00> elliott: really, you don't want the psu in your computer.
01:39:08 <elliott> cheater00: but it'll stare at me
01:39:17 <Sgeo> The most silent computers are ones that don't work!
01:39:20 <elliott> cheater00: did i mention i want an ips monitor
01:39:23 <Sgeo> Oh, cheater00 means outside the case I assume
01:39:45 <cheater00> it's nice matted extruded aluminium
01:40:24 <cheater00> oh is that this lcd overdrive stuff?
01:40:44 <cheater00> i think those overdrive ones are loud but not sure
01:41:05 <cheater00> elliott: research backplane coolers k
01:41:34 <cheater00> yeah there's this thing that makes lcds behave like they have faster times..
01:41:47 <elliott> cheater00: IPS is what the graphics"pros" use
01:41:53 <elliott> TN (normal LCDs) have uneven colour distribution
01:41:59 <elliott> colour at left corner is different to middle
01:42:05 <cheater00> which you can't use for computer games
01:42:14 <cheater00> they're superthick too aren't they?
01:42:22 <elliott> cheater00: 10 to 14 ms response; also, most actual LCDs have similar ACTUAL response rates
01:42:27 <elliott> the "cheating" is ubiquitous
01:42:45 <elliott> cheater00: btw all iMacs and Apple Displays have been IPS for like two years now
01:42:54 <cheater00> you know, cooler is just one mistake away from cooker
01:42:56 <elliott> admittedly nobody has yet to play a game on one :D
01:43:02 <elliott> cheater00: yeah they're pretty thick, but...
01:43:12 <elliott> cheater00: also since TN displays are cheaper, they tend to have other shit too
01:43:18 <elliott> stupid rounded edges hiding pixels
01:43:28 <cheater00> http://www.scan.co.uk/products/thermalright-ifx-10-backplate-motherboard-backside-extra-cpu-cooler-%28775-am2-939%29
01:43:41 <cheater00> Sgeo: funnily enough that's the name of a song i like a lot
01:44:40 <elliott> dude... who looks at non-newegg sites when deciding on components
01:45:28 <elliott> irrelevant, buying is irrelevant
01:45:32 <elliott> you look at newegg when looking
01:46:13 <cheater00> well you seem to have some income now
01:48:16 <Sgeo> If elliott has more income than me, I
01:48:20 <Sgeo> I'll be jealous
01:49:02 <elliott> i make 1k/day but my dad takes it all away to spend on HATRED
01:49:15 <elliott> keys are literally right next to each other
01:50:01 <Sgeo> lliterally literally
01:50:19 <cheater00> elliott: if you work contracts you could easily be doing 1k per day.
01:50:29 <Sgeo> When will we have figuratively literally literally?
01:50:31 <cheater00> you'd probably have to move to london or reading.
01:50:38 <Sgeo> And have to say literally literally literally?
01:51:00 * Sgeo overdoses on literally
01:51:00 <elliott> there is an essentially fifteen-year-old part of my brain that sees the word work, contracts, and move to london, and immediately ignores you for the next ten minutes
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01:52:08 <Sgeo> Google wants to replace copumpkins with gopumpkins
01:53:05 <cheater00> there's also the fifteen year old part of your brain that sees the word "able to buy new toys" and "able to afford lawyers that tell people i don't like to fuck off"
01:53:30 <cheater00> yes, word. i bet the chinese have single-words for each of those
01:53:51 <elliott> cheater00: also, i can tell people to fuck off without lawyers
01:54:25 <elliott> my email has spam filters!
01:55:49 <Sgeo> Why do I feel a sudden need to bounce off walls?
01:56:00 <Sgeo> Just earlier, I couldn't keep my eyes open?
01:56:02 <elliott> cheater00: i'm not really into the habit of getting court orders, are you?
01:56:21 <cheater00> i thought you had some sort of bs going on earlier though?
01:57:22 <cheater00> i thought you said you had to live in some sort of boarding school of sort
01:57:31 <cheater00> that you didn't want to go to at all but school made you go to
01:58:19 <elliott> Sgeo is totally crazy, it's plausible
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02:04:22 <cheater00> elliott_: i want to see that convection based cpu cooler :D
02:04:32 <cheater00> it would have to be at least 3 meters high :D
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02:13:23 <oklopol> i don't get your excavation site, you are just blowing stuff up down there at random :D
02:13:37 <oklopol> you could just do tnt columns
02:14:03 <Sgeo> RANDOM FOR THE RANDOM GOD
02:14:21 <oklopol> or preferably, just do row by row, but i guess that's boring
02:18:11 <oklopol> what's it called if you're attracted to slime?
02:19:13 <oklopol> japs use a lot of this fake sperm, so what you have is basically people having sex in slime
02:20:40 <oklopol> i tried to ggl but all i get is "pedophiles are slime and should be killed"
02:23:47 <oerjan> the pedophile blob, coming to a cinema near you
02:24:49 <oklopol> not that i even know what people who like sperm are called, although i have a guess
02:27:46 <oklopol> the slime thing? they do, but it's completely different, because you'll usually have a pretty mundane sex scene under all the slim
02:27:54 <oklopol> unlike when there's actual wanking involved
02:28:03 <oklopol> japs do get physical then, ofc, as well, but less
02:28:22 <oklopol> american bukkake is much more formal
02:30:07 <oklopol> and there's less euro and it's less clearly themed, or maybe i just notice differences easier because i'm from here, and therefore understand the european bukkake taste better
02:30:17 <oklopol> i'm not an expert on bukkake really, but i do dabble
02:32:06 <cheater00> i think you've been attacked by the pedophile blob as a child
02:34:08 <oklopol> well, german bukkake is very easy to spot of course
02:40:02 * oerjan suddenly realizes that "bukkake" could mean "stomach cake" in norwegian
02:43:21 <oklopol> buk = stomach? that's weir
02:45:11 <oklopol> would've been better if i'd said dabble in it, didn't realize that works for both
02:47:54 <oerjan> apparently it's more precisely "abdomen"
02:48:12 <oklopol> oh well that's better isn't it
02:49:42 <oklopol> i mean doesn't it make more sense
02:51:23 <oerjan> my confusion is probably due the fact that no:mage can mean _either_ stomach or abdomen
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02:52:02 <oklopol> i don't know what the finnish words mean, i think both means both
02:52:43 <oklopol> we have a word that loosely translates as "stomach bag"
02:53:04 <oklopol> which is used with both words, so maybe that's what you're supposed to call the container
02:53:15 <oklopol> i mean bag is used with both
02:54:24 <oerjan> um, we have "magesekk", which splits similarly and means only stomach
02:55:13 <oklopol> (that's not the finnish word, skki = sack)
02:55:16 <oerjan> you probably borrowed at least the parts of that :D
03:00:24 <oklopol> i just said that because of mage = maha, since english didn't seem to have a friend for it
03:03:56 <oklopol> gre:stoma => gre:stomakhos => lat:stomachus => old french:stomaque, estomac => middle english:stomach
03:05:45 <oerjan> um that does not show a link to "mage"
03:05:47 <oklopol> dunno what i could've found that wouldn't have convinced me tho
03:06:18 <oklopol> ...if a german pronounces it
03:06:50 <oklopol> doesn't show a direct link to mage, no
03:07:03 <oklopol> but those look like friends
03:07:59 <oerjan> oh old english had maga
03:08:28 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maga#Etymology_2
03:09:13 <oklopol> that's slightly closer, maybe
03:10:28 <oerjan> um i wasn't really referring to the english, but to the etymology, which is obviously the same as no:mage
03:10:42 <oerjan> also, stomach is not related
03:11:35 <oklopol> well g ~ h isn't that weird, so maha is then not related to stomach either
03:11:36 <oerjan> it's stoma + chos, the greek is a derivation with a suffix
03:12:13 <oklopol> i read that, but i was already convinced enough not to read the rest
03:12:34 <oerjan> it looks like stoma may be related to no:stemme (voice)
03:12:41 <oklopol> although why does that mean maga couldn't be from that?
03:13:21 <oklopol> why couldn't the etymology be that sto dropped out for some reason :P
03:14:08 <oerjan> oklopol: because the addition of -chos happened _in_ greek, long after the word had been inherited to the other sister language branches
03:14:55 <oklopol> hmm yeah i suppose greek isn't exactly a dead language
03:16:32 <oklopol> still not 100% convinced by that proof, although you are surely right
03:17:09 <oerjan> well indeed it's not entirely impossible, you'd have to be a linguist and look at many languages to see how it was inherited
03:17:41 <oklopol> well it's already clear from the list i gave that sto is not easy to dtop
03:18:03 <oklopol> so why the fuck would a hundred year old language like norwegian suddenly drop it
03:18:27 <oerjan> um it would have be dropped _long_ before that :D
03:19:04 <oklopol> i'm not sure how a sentence like that can have a point
03:19:17 <oerjan> there are cognates of mage in celtic and balto-slavic languages, according to that link
03:19:56 <oklopol> i have work tomorrow, kinda pointless even going because everyone will have left when i'd get there
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04:23:44 <variable> “The problem with Internet quotations is that many are not genuine.” - Abraham Lincoln
04:24:32 <oerjan> "Abraham Lincoln never said that." - Oscar Wilde
04:24:51 <variable> The REAL two hardest problems in CS: Cache Invalidation, Naming Things, and Off by One Errors.
04:25:33 <coppro> when did #esoteric become #uncyclopedia
04:25:55 <pikhq> Presumably variable is writing an Oscar Wilde language.
04:26:15 <oerjan> but was that off by one error caused by a cache invalidation?
04:26:34 <oerjan> coppro: OK THAT'S ALL MY FAULT
04:27:15 <oerjan> i recall i saw a fake lincoln quote being teared to pieces on reddit a few weeks ago (i think)
04:28:15 <oerjan> it was something that it was almost plausible for him to have said, about corporations getting too much power. and it _was_ from the 19th century, but not by him.
04:28:24 * coppro considers writing HowTo:Play Mao
04:29:03 <oerjan> coppro: and then a concise guide to playing mornington crescent, i assume?
04:29:33 <oerjan> I MEAN SINCE THE OFFICIAL RULES ARE SO LARGE
04:30:01 <coppro> the Mao guide would mostly be a guy complaining about how he doesn't get it
04:30:23 <coppro> inspired by a real-life guy who just didn't get it
04:30:37 <oerjan> variable: i _really_ think that quip above would have been better if you had named something in it. then it could have been three-way self-referential.
04:31:08 <coppro> we were happy when he left partway through and we could recover half the deck
04:31:21 <coppro> (we were playing with two decks!)
04:31:59 <oerjan> variable: nihil novi sub soli
04:35:28 <oerjan> another nice self-referential quotation
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06:53:02 <zzo38> Did they complete the next level in my game?
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09:21:19 <zzo38> Is this a real channel?
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11:57:52 <Ilari> Ah, nifty... potaroo.net is now connectable for me without hacks...
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13:09:53 * Sgeo hopes he doesn't break anything by installing these things I downloaded I think they're supposed to be installed in order but I don't know what order I didn't download them in order
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13:23:56 * Sgeo goes to play with Virtual PC
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13:55:06 <Sgeo> Fun fact: There are no checks as to what version of Windows 7 is in use.
13:57:38 <Sgeo> ...there is a check
13:57:57 <Sgeo> It checks when you try to use it
13:58:02 <Sgeo> Long after installation
14:02:31 <Sgeo> Dear Microsoft: What made you geniuses think that the best thing to do was put the XP Mode HD on the comp regardless of whether it's an acceptable host?
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14:46:48 * Sgeo tries Parallels
14:46:59 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what the limitation in the trial is
14:47:04 * Sgeo guesses that it's time limited
14:47:14 <Sgeo> I'll flip a nut if it is, but yeah
14:49:17 <Sgeo> It unnerves me when emulation software goes to install in Program Files (x86)
14:56:35 <Sgeo> So, it's no a time-based limtation
14:58:03 <Sgeo> It's a 30-day trial
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15:02:37 <Sgeo> Ok, I like Parallels
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15:33:27 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/sgeo.wav
15:35:14 <Sgeo> How to get Windows 98 to install in Parallels: Tell Parallels that the Guest OS is not Windows 98
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15:38:16 <Sgeo> I'd love Parallels much more if it WORKED
15:38:21 <Sgeo> Bloody piece of shist
15:38:34 <j-invariant> wwhat are you supposed to do while you wait for the sun to come up?
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15:59:09 <Sgeo> One good thing about VirtualBox: It actually works
16:00:22 <j-invariant> I found these virtualizer programs all took too much RAM
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16:48:50 <Sgeo> Maybe VMWare Server was breaking other random shit in the other emulators
16:54:30 <Sgeo> Huh, apparently it was
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16:57:51 <Sgeo> Or maybe it wasn't
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17:01:37 <j-invariant> elliott: what are you supposed to do in your cave while waiting for the sun to come up?
17:01:57 <elliott> j-invariant: try making a house/castle, not a cave; but, basically;
17:02:15 <elliott> j-invariant: mining; building (if you have a lit-and-encased-by-wall build project you can stay),
17:02:33 <elliott> j-invariant: you can even go out with a sword and enough armour
17:03:00 <j-invariant> also.. every time I die I lose all my rare stuff like coal :(
17:03:09 <j-invariant> I tried putting it all in my cave but it disappeard
17:03:34 <elliott> j-invariant: make chests, duh
17:03:56 <elliott> store things in chest, put all your valuable shit in chests before doingsomething dangerous
17:04:04 <j-invariant> iI dono't know if its cheating or not to read the wiki
17:04:30 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Crafting is basically essential.
17:04:41 <elliott> j-invariant: Even the people who play without spoilers get told how to craft certain things by friends
17:05:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:05:15 <elliott> j-invariant: There's really only a small finite number of things you can "spoil", and knowing them is pretty much essential to play the game well, so it's probably not worth worrying about.
17:06:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: now _here's_ a question, what do you do if you spawn in a desert biome
17:06:57 <elliott> j-invariant: biome is a region of area of a certain type
17:07:02 <elliott> j-invariant: there's desert, forest, ...
17:07:39 <elliott> j-invariant: rain forest, swamp, seasonal forest, forest, savanna, woods, taiga, desert, plains, tundra
17:07:44 <elliott> also the Nether but it hardly counts
17:08:00 <elliott> j-invariant: that last but one line is the full list
17:08:04 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, significantly, some biomes have no accessible tree.
17:08:09 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Biomes :P
17:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And since such basic things as mining require wood, you're screwed.
17:08:36 <j-invariant> I dont' like cutting up trees because I worry about them all disappearing
17:09:22 <elliott> j-invariant: um they drop saplings
17:09:28 <elliott> j-invariant: the leaves decay automatically
17:09:31 <elliott> the ones that don't, hit them
17:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Plant the saplings, and a new tree will eventually grow.
17:09:34 <elliott> j-invariant: then pick up the little tree saplings
17:09:40 <j-invariant> I planted sapling but they just stay there
17:09:42 <elliott> plant one in the same place with right click
17:09:49 <elliott> j-invariant: you have to wait for day and stuff
17:09:54 <elliott> just leave them, they'll grow
17:10:02 <elliott> j-invariant: there has to be three free blocks above
17:10:13 <elliott> j-invariant: best idea is to plant one in the same place as the tree you destroyed
17:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You can make a little indoor arboretum if you are very paranoid.
17:12:12 <elliott> I FOUND THE BEST MOUNTAIN EVER
17:13:06 -!- Behold has joined.
17:13:15 <elliott> Fuck yes. In single player.
17:16:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eA
17:16:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eQ
17:16:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://ompldr.org/vNnZ1eg
17:16:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: These photos were taken *on top of a tall mountain*.
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17:16:20 <elliott> The arch stops snow falling inside.
17:16:29 <elliott> There are also a lot of trees nearby.
17:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, you clearly haven't seen the glory of Mt. Hoover.
17:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, weirdness: I have been nominated to the RationalWiki Foundation's Board of Trustees.
17:18:30 <elliott> j-invariant: are you gonna come on our server?
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17:22:35 <j-invariant> 1: Post "HALP IVE BEEN MEGA HACKED" to stack overflow 2: Infinite karma problem stackexachange?
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17:25:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh god monster noises on Peaceful
17:27:55 <Sgeo> So far, VMware Workstation is working
17:28:02 <Sgeo> Wish I had more than a trial key though
17:29:03 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Four words: I'm trying and failing
17:32:15 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
17:32:17 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523.
17:36:08 <Sgeo> It's a sign that you are reading a webcomic
17:36:42 <Sgeo> You might turn into me!
17:37:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty sure Sgeo doesn't read Achewood, it would be a good way to distance yourself from him.
17:37:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please tell me Dr McNinja isn't something you read.
17:37:30 <elliott> HELPFUL ANTI-SGEO ADVICE DISPENSED DAILY
17:37:46 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I've glanced at it, but haven't gotten into it
17:38:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But Achewood is actually amusing and interesting, see
17:38:09 <elliott> Well, for some definitions
17:38:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I dropped Freefall to avoid Sgeo, and that's as far as I'll go.
17:39:06 * Sgeo assumes you're joking
17:39:29 <Sgeo> You'd seriously stop reading a webcomic just because I read it?
17:40:12 <Sgeo> Ok, that makes more sense
17:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I've decided I'll catch up every few months, since the story moves at a snail's pace.
17:44:19 <Sgeo> xkcd, Freefall, Dilbert [ok, not a webcomic], User Friendly on occasion not that it updates anymore, Order of the Stick, Erfworld, Bonobo Conspiracy, Superosity, 1/0 [dead], Triangle & Robert [dead], Jesus & Mo, atheistcartoons, Subnormality, The Non-Adventures of Wonderella, Basic Instructions, Cyanide & Happiness, SMBC
17:44:27 <Sgeo> Cowbirds in Love
17:50:59 <elliott> Because Sgeo has no taste.
17:51:23 <elliott> 1/0 and T&R are not so much "dead" as completed...
17:51:40 <elliott> Oh fuck fuck fuck you read Subnormality why stop it I <3 subnormality you're not allowed to
17:52:55 <elliott> oh bonobo conspiracy is written by the guy who wrote the "what colour are your bits?" thing... who puts stock in astrology :D
17:53:03 * elliott wonders if that'll make Sgeo vomit and stop reading or something
17:53:49 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm vaguely aware of that already
17:57:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw, oklopol has been mining in the excavation pits :)
18:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover> A large fraction of the MC community hate people who play it on peaceful, apparently.
18:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> There totally needs to be a survival horror version of MC.
18:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> With old mines which are crawling with monsters due to a single, minor breach.
18:20:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That guy using \alpha is iiiiiritating
18:22:51 <elliott> Dear M. Wunsch: I don't care how many hours he works in a day, I care about him acting like an idiot, I care about him being a jerk to people who have worked insane amounts with his stupid, obfuscated code to produce amazing mods, I care about him not testing the product he's _sold_ for even FIVE SECONDS before pushing it — beta is no excuse — and I care about how he does shit like badmouth git with no justification when he is far
18:22:51 <elliott> less of an engineer than anyone who's worked on git.
18:23:36 <elliott> I care that he's selling a game with potential that he's wasting by doing stupid shit and not thinking; he is clearly good enough at coding in theory to be able to do this properly, he just _isn't_. And I care that the raving hordes of fanboys lynch you for even suggesting any of this might be true.
18:24:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [[And here is Notch, who has mastered the art of computer science to express a creative ambition, making a game on his own time and finding success because of it. We should all be “sitting on his cock”…figuratively, of course.]]
18:24:46 <elliott> That... I don't care whether that's figurative or not.
18:25:07 <elliott> "If I were Notch, and I poured all of my creative ambition and energy into this project and was called a “lazy cunt” by some nothing, I would immediately cease working on the project. I would send out an update patch that bombs the game and makes it unplayable. And I would take the money and run. And I would never again bless this planet with my creativity and thoughtfulness."
18:25:14 <elliott> tl;dr not only is my skin so thick as to be non-existent, but I am a gigantic asshole.
18:25:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: M. Wunsch in that post you linked.
18:25:45 <elliott> He longs to sit on Notch's cock ... figuratively, of course.
18:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I demand that you let me copy that rant to M. Wunsch to TV Tropes' Just Bugs Me page for MC.
18:28:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure. But omit the fuck him part.
18:28:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also don't attribute me. :p
18:30:18 <Sgeo> <elliott name="Elliott Hird"/>
18:32:04 <Sgeo> YAY PARALLELS HATES WINDOWS 98
18:36:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/JustBugsMe/Minecraft
18:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> [[nothing wrong with rars, but whatever.]] — The author of hMod, when someone asked him for a zipped file.
18:38:30 <Sgeo> http://arc.opera.com/ping.html
18:39:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "can I have a tarball" "ew, pervert"
18:40:31 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, saw that. Bucket?
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18:42:13 <elliott> Sgeo: Buy the damn game and do drudge work on Cube.
18:43:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: All mod developers.
18:43:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That "frown upon" bullshit.
18:43:21 <elliott> And the passive-agressiveish "very grey area legally" from the same sentence.
18:43:37 <elliott> See his ancient blog post.
18:44:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "First of all, most “mods” that add new features to the game are in a very gray area legally, and I frown upon them."
18:44:36 <elliott> tl;dr "These '''mods''' -- I use scare quotes despite the fact that they are, in fact, mods -- are something I COULD, hypothetically, sue all your fucking asses over. Also, I hate you."
18:44:45 <elliott> Okay, so that's actually longer than the non-tl;dr :D
18:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't wait until he open-sources the code and good programmers fix it.
18:44:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I, also, cannot wait for infinity.
18:45:05 <elliott> It is something rather difficult to wait for.
18:45:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait what.
18:47:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82789
18:52:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Umm...no. :P
18:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The point of that kind of parody is to take reality and twist it, rather than making stuff up.
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18:57:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. I either need to upgrade my VPS or ... my internet connection :P
18:58:02 <elliott> "4:29PM The screens are now an undulating blue cube field. And man -- are they ever undulating."
18:58:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I'm TNTing ineiros and everyone he holds dear.
18:58:14 <elliott> (Not really. Except, yes, really.)
18:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> [[I was skeptical at first, but this is a much better game than Fallout 3. Heaps of crashes and console freeze bugs.]] — Notch on Fallout 3.
18:59:33 <elliott> Fallout 3: better than Fallout 3.
18:59:49 <elliott> [[4:39PM Oh, Zoll's on stage now! He's... holding a remote? Oh, he's sitting on a couch and watching... a video of his mother being pregnant? Oh boy.
18:59:49 <elliott> 4:40PM "My parents were totally stoked when I finally arrived... Grandma said I must have been the most documented kid ever."]] — document of Samsung keynote
19:00:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG. FALLOUT NEW VEGAS WAS DEVELOPED BY OBSIDIAN ENTERTAINMENT
19:01:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of that, if you haven't seen this you must: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKIkw3LIoQ
19:02:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It gets better.
19:03:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The great thing is, the first time it just looks like your vision is all messed up, and then it KEEPS GOING
19:03:56 <Phantom_Hoover> That has to be the scariest thing in a game, like, ever.
19:04:15 <zzo38> Any complete of my game, yet?
19:04:26 <zzo38> Or any part of it?
19:04:36 <zzo38> Wasn't j-invariant playing this game? Did they get past that level?
19:05:56 <zzo38> I think they are not on this IRC at this time?
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19:06:57 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, the irony of Notch complaining about someone else's buggy game is delightful.
19:07:15 <elliott> http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/06/live-from-samsungs-ces-2011-keynote/?sort=oldest&refresh=0 Oh my god, this is the most amazing thing ever.
19:07:21 <elliott> Or at least second most amazing.
19:08:44 * oerjan now wonders what the first is
19:09:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Chocolate unicorns.
19:10:17 <oerjan> i've been reading reddit too much, i feel like adding bacon to that
19:10:19 <elliott> 5:03PM Demoing the change from ESPN to CNN. This is really cool stuff.
19:10:20 <elliott> 5:04PM Cool in the sense that it's happening on the Galaxy Tab, not cool in the sense that he changed a TV channel.
19:11:43 <Sgeo> If I get sound working in this VM, I'll finally be able to play a kid's game that I haven't played in years1
19:11:59 <elliott> Sgeo: And then, finally, you can become a child once more.
19:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell *is* this Cloud thing people keep going on about?
19:15:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: probably has something to do with global warming
19:15:19 <oerjan> steam is a greenhouse gas, after all
19:15:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, cloud seeding is one of the proposed methods of geoengineering
19:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's unclear how one would store data in a cloud.
19:16:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The letter A just exploded from serif to sans-serif. It's hard to explain that any better.]]
19:17:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i read they managed to store data in _bacteria_, so why not
19:22:37 -!- cal153 has joined.
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19:30:52 <oerjan> maybe we should ask some homeopaths, i hear they are experts at storing data in water
19:32:54 <elliott> fizzie: Do you still have that symbolic-mode parsing code? I feel like converting it to Haskell.
19:34:40 <oerjan> there is no such thing as sociopaths. stop believing that nonsense or i will make _sure_ you regret it.
19:35:31 <elliott> oerjan: Now now, be more classy; a decent sociopath would go "I see.", smile genuinely, convince you into going home with him, and disembowel you.
19:35:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. As in o+x,g=wr.
19:35:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Most commonly e.g. "+x" or "a+w".
19:36:02 <elliott> chmod's argument, basically, when not octal.
19:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I CAN'T HERE YOU I AM RAPPING ABOUT SYMBOLIC MODE PARSING CODE IN MY HEAD
19:36:41 <oerjan> elliott: that's a ridiculous suggestion, i don't want to have to clean up that stuff
19:37:10 <elliott> oerjan: Wow. Lazy sociopathy is surprisingly hilarious.
19:37:28 <elliott> "I would kill you for no reason at all, but I'd probably have to hide your body and that sounds like a lot of work."
19:37:51 -!- j-invariant has joined.
19:38:15 <elliott> "5:29PM Zoll remembers going to an amusement park with his dad for the first time. He wishes his dad had taken pictures in 3D, because the pictures they took don't adequately capture the memory. Oh, Zoll."
19:38:25 <elliott> [[5:29PM BK: "Last year we launched the world's first Full HD 3D TV! That's a lot of initials."]]
19:38:53 <oerjan> elliott: while i _hope_ i have a more solid moral than that, that still feels eerily close to how i feel about annoying people sometimes
19:39:05 <elliott> oerjan: i... please don't kill me?
19:39:27 <oerjan> oh you're nowhere near _that_ annoying.
19:40:07 <olsner> elliott: not nearly as bad as it could be though - could be specified as a LED LCD TV, and they could throw in SCART and HDMI and VGA and DVI as well...
19:40:24 <elliott> [[5:35PM BK just gave Katzenerg a pair of prescription 3D glasses. "These are so light -- maybe I'll just wear these all the time instead of my real glasses." Sure you will, Jeff. Sure you will.]]
19:40:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I don't seem to annoy oerjan
19:40:49 <Sgeo> Just you and elliott
19:40:53 <olsner> elliott: maybe that would let you see the world in 3D though?
19:40:57 <elliott> Wow, Sgeo has no idea how annoying he is.
19:40:59 <zzo38> j-invariant: Do you figure out the game yet? Remember you can block the door so that it won't close all the way, and then you get get out and go back in to the dragons room.
19:41:11 <zzo38> And then if you win, the other dragon will give you back the ammunition and give you the key.
19:41:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: represent as infinite stream of base 2, intermingle
19:41:25 <olsner> elliott: I mean, that would be *AWESOME*
19:41:40 <elliott> [[5:39PM Zoll's back! "Nature rules!" Oh, Zoll. Zolly Zoll Zoll.]]
19:41:45 <olsner> super HD *3D*, no less
19:42:12 <elliott> [[5:43PM "If you are to be successful, this child must be an inspiration to us all... a child of the 21st century. We must think of him every time we create a product." Can we never think of Zoll again, though? Is that also an option?]]
19:42:17 <zzo38> j-invariant: I give you a hint. Block the door while it is closing, and it won't close. And then you can go north, and then south and you can destroy the piece of the door. The dragon can be removed in the same way.
19:42:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you need to patch that up a bit because of the 0.111... = 1.000... issue, but that's essentially constructive, yes
19:42:48 <variable> Turing machines accept recursively enumerable languages. ---> what are "recursively enumerable languages"
19:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, the type of languages Turing machines accept.
19:43:23 <elliott> variable: languages that you can enumerate, recursively
19:43:35 <elliott> variable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursively_enumerable_language
19:43:40 <elliott> A recursively enumerable language is a formal language for which there exists a Turing machine (or other computable function) which will enumerate all valid strings of the language. Note that, if the language is infinite, the enumerating algorithm provided can be chosen so that it avoids repetitions, since we can test whether the string produced for number n is "already" produced for a number which is less than n. If it already is pro
19:43:40 <elliott> duced, use the output for input n+1 instead (recursively), but again, test whether it is "new".
19:43:45 <elliott> A recursively enumerable language is a formal language for which there exists a Turing machine (or other computable function) that will halt and accept when presented with any string in the language as input but may either halt and reject or loop forever when presented with a string not in the language. Contrast this to recursive languages, which require that the Turing machine halts in all cases.
19:44:52 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I don't seem to annoy oerjan <-- actually their constant picking on you annoys me more than you do. although you _do_ need to do something about your father issues. (so do i.)
19:45:24 <j-invariant> zzo38: I could destroy the door but the dragons still kill me
19:45:42 <elliott> oerjan: I tried to be nice to him and felt pity for his issues! but it was too much! too much!
19:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, if you go and tell Sgeo's father that he's a complete cretin I will be so happy.
19:45:56 <elliott> oerjan: so i've given up :(
19:46:26 <elliott> i'll go tell oerjan's father the same!
19:46:43 <zzo38> j-invariant: OK. Remember dragons cannot move diagonally. You can stand next to the north edge so the dragons step near there (you can move faster than dragons can). And now you can go back to the other board north and then east/west and then south.
19:47:57 <zzo38> Also dragons are allowed to move in lava, but it is difficult to see due to same color is red.
19:48:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try "fuck you".
19:49:03 <zzo38> j-invariant: Someone experienced with MegaZeux might or might not know this. But it can be learnable by the codes for MegaZeux, too.
19:49:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm sorry, your quota of people whom I should murder or kidnap has been exhausted.
19:49:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Fuck you", not murder or kidnap.
19:50:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Murder/kidnap would be a waste of time.
19:51:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is, in this case, well, well worth it.
19:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (This is in order that I have something to say when I rm -rf ~ * by accident.)
19:51:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I go for compound curses when that happens.
19:52:11 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes. Now you have to figure out which one is the real key. (You might create a save file at this point, in case you make mistake)
19:52:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Normal sentence: "...fucking...". rm -rf: "FUCKING PISS-SHITTING TWATBASKET"
19:52:32 <elliott> (OK, so more likely "Fuckfuchklfcucklik just deleted my home directory aaarhgiudfhgjkgljlkfhjd")
19:53:20 <zzo38> j-invariant: Good! Now you can ask the other dragon for the other key and they will give you back your ammunition, too.
19:53:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/IdiotProgramming
19:54:33 <elliott> [[Also from the programming side, libraries developed by the Department Of Redundancy Department where you have to lapse into Pokemon Speak to write any meaningful code. For instance, take this line from Debian's version of awesome's rc.lua:
19:54:34 <elliott> { "Debian", debian.menu.Debian_menu.Debian }
19:54:34 <elliott> To be clear, "menu" is the only member of "debian", and "Debian_menu" is the only member of "debian.menu".]]
19:54:38 <elliott> That is... not actually all that bad.
19:54:47 <elliott> Obviously "debian" is reserved for Debian-related stuff to avoid namespace clashing.
19:54:59 <elliott> debian.menu is reserved for {Debian menu}-related things.
19:55:09 <elliott> And the {Debian menu} contains the root item {Debian}, I believe, which is the actual Debian menu.
19:55:18 <elliott> I'd make it debian.menu.Debian, but still.
19:56:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Thing that irritates me about TV Trope: Linking every reference to MemeticMutation.
19:56:26 <elliott> I REALISE WHAT IT IS, I'M NOT AN IDIOT, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE REFERENCING
19:56:29 <elliott> ALSO REFERENCES AREN'T MEMES
20:02:36 <elliott> ("-n":args') -> putStr (unwords args')
20:02:38 <elliott> _ -> putStrLn (unwords args)
20:08:53 <oerjan> main = do args <- getArgs; putStr . unwords $ case args of ("-n":args') -> args' ; _ -> args ++ ["\n"] -- I'm not sure I consider this an improvement...
20:10:16 <elliott> oerjan: erm does that not put a space before the newline
20:10:46 <zzo38> j-invariant: Now did you figure out the next part of this game?
20:10:56 <coppro> when did we get lambdabot?
20:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, when I convinced Cale to let us have it permanently with my dashing good looks and wit.
20:11:30 <oerjan> elliott: that means unwords cannot be combined :(
20:11:45 <j-invariant> zzo38: no this part is crazy! I will take a while to figure it out
20:11:52 <elliott> oerjan: just append \n to the last :D
20:12:00 <elliott> oerjan: (make sure this handles no args)
20:12:24 <oerjan> elliott: which sounds like it's unlikely to be shorter
20:12:46 <zzo38> j-invariant: After trying for a while if you cannot figure out, you can ask questions about things you do not know about the working of MegaZeux if you need to (such as how specific objects work and so on).
20:13:09 <elliott> oerjan: hm note that the case can be
20:13:22 <elliott> ("-n":args') -> putStr (unwords args')
20:13:22 <elliott> args' -> putStrLn (unwords args')
20:13:27 <elliott> but i don't think this helps
20:13:50 <oerjan> no, because you still cannot combine the args', not being in the same scope
20:14:25 <elliott> oh wait rhs isn't even the same there
20:14:37 <elliott> oerjan: we could have "helper f xs = f (unwords xs)"
20:19:00 <oerjan> main = do args <- getArgs; putStr . uncurry ((++) . unwords) $ case args of ("-n":args') -> (args',"") ; _ -> (args,"\n")
20:19:34 <elliott> oerjan: you are a bad person?
20:19:36 <elliott> I think you are a bad person
20:19:54 <elliott> oerjan: now make it point-free
20:20:24 <elliott> oerjan: main=do a<-getArgs;putStr.uncurry((++).unwords)$case a of("-n":b)->(b,"");_->(a,"\n")
20:20:28 <oerjan> point-free-ing case statements is not precisely nice
20:21:08 <elliott> main = eachFile ((B.putStr =<<) . B.hGetContents) =<< getArgs
20:21:14 <elliott> oerjan: do you think my cat implementation (pictured) is too readable?
20:21:40 * oerjan didn't even recall eachFile existed
20:23:03 <oerjan> google tells me System.IO.Utils has one
20:23:27 <elliott> eachFile :: (Handle -> IO ()) -> [String] -> IO ()
20:23:27 <elliott> eachFile f xs = mapM_ doFile xs
20:23:28 <elliott> where doFile "-" = f stdin
20:23:30 <elliott> doFile fn = withFile fn ReadMode f
20:23:48 <elliott> oerjan: I think I should probably split ((B.putStr =<<) . B.hGetContents) back into being named cat, though
20:25:53 <oerjan> that's B.hGetContents >>> B.putStr, i think
20:26:22 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b c. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
20:26:49 <lambdabot> forall b (m :: * -> *) c a. (Monad m) => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c
20:28:31 <elliott> oerjan: so many fuckin arrows yo
20:28:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
20:28:44 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
20:28:47 <zzo38> Maybe, what should be have in TeXnicard, is a parser that can compile a Inform7-like code into a C code. So that you can use the cards in a computer game as well.
20:29:30 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
20:29:37 <lambdabot> source <lib>. Lookup the url of fptools libraries
20:29:59 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
20:30:18 <oerjan> oh wait it does say the module
20:30:44 * oerjan hasn't played with lambdabot for ages
20:30:45 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
20:30:48 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
20:30:53 <elliott> oerjan: well @source would not have worked, any way :)
20:31:48 <oerjan> >=> and <=< were added a couple years ago or so
20:32:41 <elliott> I think it uses the Report's Prelude code.
20:32:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: for sharing
20:32:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fix f = f (fix f) eats memory
20:32:53 <elliott> (without a sufficiently smart compiler)
20:32:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: to ensure the value is not reevaluated
20:32:58 <elliott> whereas "let x = f x" is more like a circular list
20:33:05 <elliott> except it's not a list, you know what i mean :)
20:33:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: except sometimes the _other_ choice also eats memory, so ghc does not always try to be smarter than you
20:34:37 <elliott> oerjan: at least, until it gets {-# LANGUAGE MindReading #-}
20:34:44 <oerjan> well maybe not in the case of fix
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20:36:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: however some of that code is shared with other compilers than ghc, or at least used to be when there were others
20:36:48 <oerjan> ghc may add rules pragmas for its own optimizations
20:38:05 <oerjan> some of the code may be inherited from the haskell 98 report
20:40:49 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:42:38 <elliott> e.g. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Yhc
20:42:42 <elliott> also nhc is an old one i think
20:44:59 <zzo38> What kind of card games have circular text boxes?
20:47:00 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (>=>) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
21:01:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=110095#p1626297
21:02:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, are we looking at the same thing.
21:02:42 <elliott> [[[img]Minecraft%20lava[/img]
21:02:42 <elliott> I don't know whether this picture works, but it demonstrates the demonic power of above land lava!]]
21:02:49 <elliott> nooga: buy it, do drudge work on Cube on server.
21:05:48 <elliott> eachFileInteract f = eachFile (\h -> B.putStr =<< (f <$> B.hGetContents h))
21:09:41 <oerjan> eachFile (B.putStr . f <=< B.hGetContents)
21:10:50 <elliott> oerjan: THAT'S NOT POINT-FREE
21:11:48 <oerjan> eachFileInteract = eachFile . (<=< B.hGetContents) . (B.putStr .)
21:12:01 <elliott> oerjan: good! now inline all the functions
21:18:05 <elliott> Vorpal: i need a posix standards opinion
21:22:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=110095&sid=a30c290f6bd796ded3e2a348a40cf3c9&start=30#p1635944
21:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Is it OK if, e.g., rev(1) accepts only valid UTF-8?
21:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, is rev even POSIX?
21:25:11 <elliott> Vorpal: mentally substitute some other text processing filter, then
21:25:33 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:hsybox ehird$ echo 'häagen-dazs' | ./rev
21:25:33 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:hsybox ehird$ ./rev /dev/random
21:25:35 <elliott> rev: /dev/random: hGetContents: invalid argument (Illegal byte sequence)
21:25:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You are inferior.
21:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, such as sed or cut? hm
21:26:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Bonus question -- is it even valid to do the Right Thing on valid UTF-8, and do it dumbly on invalid text? Or does POSIX actually require that you mangle non-ASCII text?
21:26:28 <Vorpal> elliott, does POSIX say anything about it? (the utf-8 stuff)
21:27:12 <zzo38> I have idea. TeXnicard could ignore pages in the DVI file that have negative page numbers. This way you can check for whatsits in a box by \shipout\lastbox and similar things to that.
21:27:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I know posix from an user perspective, not from an implementer perspective. And my guess is that it is locale dependent
21:27:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you check posix yourself, my computer is too heavily loaded to open such a huge pdf
21:28:07 <elliott> I don't wanna dig through N pages. (Also, don't you just use the HTML version? It has a nicer UI.)
21:28:22 <Vorpal> elliott, is there one for POSIX.1-2008?
21:28:22 <Gregor> It seems to me that things like rev(1) would probably be required by POSIX to have no friggin' clue what Unicode is, and just recognize char 0x0A
21:28:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, except as far as I can tell from some quick checks rev(1) comes from BSD and is not specced by posix
21:29:21 <elliott> Vorpal: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
21:29:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, back when I downloaded 2008 it was like 2 weeks after being ratified. And there was no html version then
21:29:53 <elliott> Vorpal: boosters have apparently been fixed in the source code repository according to heresy
21:29:57 <elliott> enjoy redoing your minecart tracks
21:30:08 <elliott> as in they don't work any more.
21:30:32 <Vorpal> elliott, how reliable is this source?
21:30:37 <oerjan> a very obvious definition of "fixed"
21:30:42 <elliott> Like, TWO people on Minecraft forums! http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=128232
21:31:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well could just be a rather mediocre hoax
21:32:53 <Vorpal> elliott, played with craftbook on local test server btw. It's fun. Stuff like elevators with signs where you right click on sign to go up/down and bridges and what not
21:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it's a nice hmod plugin
21:33:24 <Vorpal> haven't tried it's minecart stuff but it does have some booster blocks and such
21:36:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a hmod plugin that seems rather nice
21:36:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also I decided that the castle was not viable even when scaled down. Considering if I might do it with worldedit or similar. If I make the inner fort in obsidian it would be about 60000 obsidian or so I think. Which would be awesome but utterly infeasible without help from such a mod.
21:36:58 <Vorpal> heck it would be a pain even in other materials
21:37:12 <Vorpal> oh and that would be just hollow, rouge approximation
21:37:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Why not just make it manually, you have like 9348579845793845798345365 resources...
21:38:07 <elliott> ha! /me spawned OFF a beach
21:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, not on my local test server no. And even with faster-render and region save single player is still unplayably slow.
21:38:34 <Vorpal> (the server I can run on another computer on the lan)
21:38:47 <Vorpal> (one with good cpu but sucky intel graphics)
21:39:06 <elliott> huh spawned above sea level
21:39:11 <zzo38> I think C ought to have a #try #catch that works at *compile time* (not at run time).
21:39:33 <zzo38> elliott: Catching compiler errors and warnings.
21:39:49 <Vorpal> actually that sounds quite interesting (also rather mad)
21:40:44 <Vorpal> elliott, hey seeing "uncaught syntax error" would be epic :P
21:41:02 <Vorpal> or uncaught syntax exception I guess
21:41:39 <elliott> incidentally, wtf mcedit is hard to use.
21:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is. And for me it is slow too
21:42:34 <elliott> Cobblestone doesn't come naturally, does it.
21:42:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it does. Lava + water. Also in dungeons
21:42:54 <elliott> did i mention that sand fell to reveal this :D
21:42:56 <Vorpal> elliott, dungeons have non-mossy as well
21:43:12 <elliott> haha... the dungeon spawned underneath sand
21:43:14 <elliott> and the sand fell when i spawned
21:43:17 <Sgeo> Ugh, where's my thumb drive?
21:43:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that sort of stuff happens.
21:43:34 <elliott> usually not right next to spawn though
21:43:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why do you ask *us* that?
21:44:39 <elliott> wtf, dungeon without a chest :(
21:45:13 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it isn't hidden under the sand?
21:45:27 <Vorpal> elliott, cleared away all the sand to the cobble walls?
21:45:35 <elliott> underneath the remaining sand is just stone
21:45:35 <Sgeo> Does gravel have a use?
21:46:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, certainly. For draining.
21:46:20 <Vorpal> pretty much same use as sand (except you can't smelt it for anything)
21:46:40 * Phantom_Hoover decides that he will torrent as much Red Dwarf as he can get his hands on.
21:46:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo, drop it in, it will sink down. Easy to remove using the usual torch trick (see wiki if you don't know it)
21:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, craftbook has "redstone ICs" too. Including stuff like light level detector, 3-bit prng, water sensor, and what not. Oh and you can make redstone controlled torches. And pumpkins. So you can make light switches :)
21:48:55 <elliott> I wonder why pumpkins/torches aren't redstoned.
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, pikhq, one of the two of you please pick a torrent from http://torrentz.eu/search?f=red+Dwarf
21:49:29 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and there are some ICs that require admin privs it seems. Such as "set time of day". I just combined a light detector and that to reset to day as soon as dusk comes. Waiting to see if it will work.
21:50:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They all look like shitty xvid.
21:50:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Look for the DVD ISOs and transcode yourself.
21:50:41 <elliott> pikhq: I think that might ... not be what he wants. But yeah, agreed :P
21:50:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yay, it resets to just-after-sunrise about 2 seconds after the light level starts to decrease during dusk. Hm that is actually kind of useful when building stuff outdoors.
21:51:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Now turn monsters on.
21:51:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then download anything.
21:51:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If it's not h.264 it's a waste of disk space.
21:51:49 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, stop being a zealot.
21:51:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:52:08 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe. Maybe not. It has health of and worldedit on. So it is very much a creative testing server :P
21:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, if there aren't any h.264 torrents which won't take until the heat death of the universe to download, I'm fine with wasting disk space.
21:52:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://torrentz.eu/e9e838463c428d6e169fdf9c4a0858bb5fc71cd4
21:52:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Go for that.
21:52:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just disable season 8 or whatever.
21:52:36 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not even being a zealot here!
21:52:45 <elliott> It's the biggest one with enough seeders to download well.
21:53:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Er, right.
21:53:23 <pikhq> elliott: Especially since most Xvid stuff is downscaled, and it's *all* at what would be, for h.264, an *insanely* high bitrate.
21:53:39 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
21:53:47 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but sourcing ISOs is nearly impossible.
21:53:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also if you don't like the bridge in it you can make toggleable areas. Like you build something. Mark it with worldedit (craftbook and worldedit have the same author), then use a save area command. Then you can make redstone control this, replacing it with empty air or with another saved area. To switch between them. You can make quite fancy bridges that way.
21:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, OK, but turning my nose up at it is not something I'm going to do if there aren't any other options.
21:54:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, you do realise that there isn't any season 9?
21:54:18 <pikhq> Though there were a lot of Red Dwarf PAL ISOs there...
21:54:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The Back to Earth three-parter is sometimes referred to as season 9 for god-knows-what-reason.
21:55:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, that sets off my crap detectors so I'll leave it for now.
21:55:04 <pikhq> elliott: Sort by size, look at the torrents that are about 4 gig.
21:55:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Season 8 is also pretty bad, I gather.
21:55:28 <elliott> pikhq: http://torrentz.eu/searchS?q=red+dwarf
21:55:36 <elliott> pikhq: The top one there is 2 gigs of xvid.
21:56:03 <elliott> pikhq: OK, all I see is remastered ones and a few others.
21:56:16 <elliott> Certainly no reliable way to get all of them without stupid remastering. OR even with.
21:56:38 <pikhq> Ah, fuck, they are unseeded.
21:56:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Twitchy"?
21:56:50 <pikhq> WHY DO PEOPLE STILL USE XVID. IT SUCKS.
21:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I get paranoid if it doesn't start downloading quickly.
21:57:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Fill in trackers from torrentz. Forget it exists for five hours. Come back.
21:59:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it stupid to wish there was some kind of sequencing operator for torrents?
22:00:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's called pause and resume.
22:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be impossible to prioritise early files for download?
22:00:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can do that manually.
22:00:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Go into properties, files, set the first ones to high priority.
22:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Opinion: Just about every block should react to a redstone current. Also, redstone currents should be able to move blocks somehow.
22:00:59 <elliott> That would be 90% of the way to letting you make a dig-o-matic bot.
22:02:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Whats the texture pack" -- in reply to someone using the default texture pack.
22:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but presumably it'd need some finite resource to power it?
22:02:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I just imagined a blocky variant of one of those huge digging machines you see on pics sometimes. Forgot the name of it. Started with B iirc.
22:02:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Finite resource: sure, time. Minecart perpetual motion machines already exist anyway :P
22:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, you'd have to make a turbine generator and attach it to a furnace.
22:03:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I was about to say that you should be able to, like, burn a "deactivated redstone torch" item in a furnace, and it'd become a redstone source.
22:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, not if boosters are fixed
22:03:31 <Vorpal> elliott, then they don't
22:03:32 <elliott> (With normal redstone torches being removed.)
22:04:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't get yours, would you just put coal in a furnace and no items?
22:04:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes I agree your idea is better
22:04:08 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:04:11 <elliott> snow on top of a pumpkin :D
22:04:22 <impomatic> What happened to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net ? Has it moved?
22:04:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But there's no fluid involved. >_>
22:04:36 <elliott> impomatic: it is, as always, at esolangs.org; voxelperfect expired
22:04:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can s/deactivated redstone torch/anything/ in my idea.
22:04:55 <oklopol> you people haven't spelunked much have ya
22:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You then have some kind of pipe-based thing, and a heat exchanger item.
22:05:02 <oklopol> all the caves near cube are unlooked-at
22:05:02 <impomatic> Quite a few links on the esolang wiki to voxelperfect addresses.
22:05:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The point is that furnacing an item would make the furnace act as a redstone torch.
22:05:24 <elliott> With redstone torches being removed.
22:05:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ideally, there'd be some way to "push" blocks into furnaces with some kind of machine, so the miner could power itself :) (if it found those blocks)
22:06:01 <Vorpal> elliott, removing them would be a PITA. You could no longer make inverters. Or any logic.
22:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, yes, but this way you can also use hydroelectric power. Although water flow would have to be made finite or somesuch.
22:06:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably you'd just fuel up a stack of redstone torches and it'd use them.
22:06:30 <elliott> Weird, exposed stone outside (a lot of it).
22:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well you called your a source. That means it always generate, no?
22:06:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Meh, you can easily build a constant flow.
22:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, unlike redstone torches
22:06:44 <elliott> Just route the furnace-torch to two places.
22:06:55 <elliott> Vorpal: It acts exactly like a redstone torch when burning.
22:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott, how would you place it on the side of a block then?
22:07:23 <Vorpal> elliott, because that is what makes logic work
22:07:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 1 uranium burns to produce 64 toxic wastes.
22:08:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. :p The point is that it takes ages to smelt.
22:08:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So given enough coal it'd run forever.
22:08:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Toxic wastes in a furnace make it corrode, or something, so you have to pick them up, but if you hold them for too long you start losing health gradually.
22:08:40 <elliott> But they solidify water into, I dunno, obsidian.
22:08:49 <elliott> Make glass decay, trees to die. Etc.
22:08:54 <elliott> Why, throwing it into lava, of course.
22:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I wasn't thinking of having uranium burnable by itself, FWIW.
22:09:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should uranium be the smelted item or the fuel?
22:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd smelt uranium ore into uranium blocks, both of which would cause gradual and persistent health damage.
22:09:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you plan on writing a mod to do this?
22:09:48 <elliott> I'm fantasising, like Sgeo but more awesome.
22:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Then you craft the blocks into a core by surrounding them with iron, and use that as a fuel.
22:10:07 <Vorpal> elliott, less awesome. I think Phantom_Hoover's suggestion was a lot better
22:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: um his and mine suggestions are working off each others
22:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well the turbine one I meant
22:10:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I approve.
22:11:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, what do things do when hit by a current.
22:11:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ooh. Maybe lanterns _are_ a good idea.
22:11:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Torches expire, and lanterns need a current to run.
22:11:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So you'd end up mining to keep your house's main generator running.
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22:12:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No no no, I was meaning constructing your own.
22:13:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As in, logic gates for... logic, and using the advanced circuitry's interactions with blocks to actually move a mining-vehicle along a track.
22:14:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably.
22:14:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe we should call it something else, considering it'd probably end up totally different.
22:14:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Bluestone?
22:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, a more elegant method than redstone wiring would be necessary.
22:15:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Obviously minecarts would interact with bluestone. Ooh, I know.
22:15:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you put a bluestone current into a minecart track, it pushes any cart on it forward at X speed.
22:16:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So you can make a booster-style system by having a generator, and just having it follow the track, occasionally splitting into "further along the track" and "rightwards to boost the track".
22:16:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: COMPLICATEDLY, I don't wanna think about wiring :P
22:16:24 <variable> how do I tell if a file exists in Haskell ?
22:16:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Right-clicking with bluestone lets you run more cables through.
22:17:04 <elliott> 22:16 elliott: @hoogle FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:04 <elliott> 22:16 lambdabot: System.Directory doesDirectoryExist :: FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:05 <elliott> 22:16 lambdabot: System.Directory doesFileExist :: FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:07 <elliott> 22:16 lambdabot: System.Console.Editline.Readline readHistory :: FilePath -> IO Bool
22:17:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MAYBE, DO NOT WANT TO THINK, LEAST FUN PART OF THIS
22:18:01 <elliott> variable: @hoogle is your friend :-)
22:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I always feel misanthropically bitter when I get download rates a tenth of my seeding rates on a torrent.
22:19:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You lay some bluestone on the top of some obsidian, and then on the right of it. Catch: The right of it is immersed in lava.
22:20:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me this works and you can send currents to lava to do awesome things.
22:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It would be nice to have proper water and lava manipulation.
22:21:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe the lava should travel backwards as fire along the circuit :D
22:21:36 <elliott> That would let you hook up an automated-burner; just flick a switch and burn whatever's on the other end.
22:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And make water conductive, because chemistry is boring.
22:22:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm talking about when a current hits a block, though (think how TNT behaves now).
22:22:35 <elliott> Obviously a current hitting a lava block should do SOMETHING fun.
22:23:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Lava blocks are sort of already fire.
22:24:19 <oklopol> ineiros: did you know your pit is just next to a huge cave system... only have to break a few blocks to get to your staircase, not telling you how i know tho
22:26:08 <oklopol> cobblestone burns SLOOOOOW
22:27:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I should point out that we can get pretty thorough pictures of underground areas with mcmap
22:27:47 <elliott> oklopol: cobblestone burns?
22:28:06 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:32:56 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if by that you mean i should be more careful, then yes, i certainly try to avoid stuff like this, i just didn't realize the cave went under the fucking mountain
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22:34:45 <oklopol> but you could only do it by lava bucket, and it'd take one whole bucket
22:35:10 <oklopol> maybe it was seconds, but anyway
22:35:59 <oklopol> ineiros must have gotten pretty pissed, i keep timing out
22:37:36 <oklopol> i... forgot to take the stone out, and picked the stove
22:38:06 <oklopol> and the coal, mined about a hundred of that stuff, now i have 20 something
22:39:12 <oklopol> well you need one coal like every 5 seconds
22:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Feel free to get some from Mt. Hoover or the ROU; my supplies are enough for me.
22:39:38 <oklopol> i put a torch on every square
22:40:02 <oklopol> but anyway yeah, it's common, but i don't have a box full of it yet
22:40:09 <oklopol> because i just started mining
22:40:13 <elliott> oklopol: lame, i mine every block in a tunnel i go in, fill it with lava, then cover it with glass
22:40:19 <elliott> best lighting system for spelunking imo
22:40:20 <oklopol> you have something like one stack there or what?
22:41:59 <elliott> oklopol: did you know that if you destroy a chest without using a pick, just your hands, it keeps the items inside and you can store it in your inventory?
22:42:16 <elliott> oklopol: so you can store like 36 chests with items in your inventory
22:42:47 <oklopol> that is very useful, if it's true
22:43:21 <oklopol> maybe i won't even need a base then
22:44:21 <oklopol> so what about a box, can you store a box full of stuff in a box?
22:44:34 <oklopol> because i could just carry a castle around then.
22:44:52 <oklopol> "here come's oklopol with a bag full of a fucking 64x64x64 diamond castle"
22:45:29 <elliott> oklopol: hmm i guess you could actually
22:45:33 <elliott> i mean, it's just breaking the box that has the items in
22:45:45 <elliott> oklopol: but getting an item out of 10 nested boxes might be a bitch :D
22:46:31 <oklopol> yeah like i'd ever actually *use* the stuff i'm carrying
22:48:49 <elliott> I EVEN ASKED YOU IN /MSG NOT TO TELL
22:48:55 <elliott> i was going to keep that up for days
22:49:06 <oklopol> i would've just tried after this tho
22:49:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A POX UPON YOU
22:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I checked here, and I didn't associate the two at all.
22:49:24 <oklopol> well it was kinda obvious he was lying
22:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you were telling me not to tell David Braben he was a dick
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22:54:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, there are people who don't understand why people would not like InvEdit much.
22:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> People tend not to be very tolerant of people who enjoy different forms of play to them.
22:55:45 <oklopol> invedit = ability to put stuff in your inventory?
22:55:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Even I dislike InvEdit to a degree... i.e., I'm not going to think of much of a gigantic superstructure if it was built entirely with InvEdit.
22:56:10 <elliott> oklopol: lets you put whatever you want in your inventory and change various random shit like getting infinite health, tool health, etc.
22:56:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yesyesyes, but we can't just say //giveme 5 diamond blocks and 1000 obsidian
22:57:25 <oklopol> what is that, i have no way to guess
22:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, things like that Enterprise would be impressive if they had been built by hand at all.
22:58:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Eh, sure. Still.
22:58:18 <elliott> "OMG I MADE A HUGE CASTLE" "but didn't mine a block to make it"... meh.
22:58:29 <elliott> oklopol: autominer is me and Phantom_Hoover's hypothetical machine built with bluestone
22:58:35 <elliott> where bluestone is a hypothetical circuit system far better than redstone
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22:58:48 <elliott> powerful enough to build an automatic mining tool with that can even power itself (assuming it finds the right ore)
22:58:59 <elliott> it would, however, be gigantic :D
22:59:14 <elliott> you'd probably want one central computer and underground wires leading to all the places you want to mine
22:59:20 <elliott> rather than making multiple ones
22:59:27 <oerjan> <oklopol> well it was kinda obvious he was lying <-- well, with all they've been speaking about notch being a lousy programmer... although such a cheat would probably be a high priority to fix.
22:59:27 <oklopol> yeah i'm not saying you can't build an identicle in mc
22:59:36 <oklopol> just that you can't make a nice one
23:00:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:00:46 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah, but i figured it was a multiplayer specific feature no one mentioned to me, because no one else actually needs boxes
23:00:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:00:59 <oklopol> elliott: identicle was defined in a conversation a few months ago here
23:01:20 <elliott> 10.12.01:13:29:43 <oklofok> elliott: let's talk about identicles instead
23:01:29 <elliott> 10.12.01:12:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the principle is identicle.
23:01:31 <elliott> indeed that is the principle
23:01:33 <oklopol> well in this case, something that is able to destroy everything
23:01:36 <elliott> oklopol: few months ago = december
23:01:42 <elliott> it ... felt like it was ages ago though, what
23:01:52 <oklopol> elliott: yeah i don't really experience time quite as linearly as most people
23:02:00 <elliott> oklopol: you could do that with bluestone kinda
23:02:14 <elliott> oklopol: you know what redstone does?
23:02:17 <elliott> that, but much more advanced
23:02:27 <elliott> oklopol: basically, it involves redesigning 1/4th of the whole game :D
23:02:30 <elliott> but it'd be so much cooler
23:02:31 <oklopol> i know what redstone does, but haven't really used it much
23:02:49 <elliott> you could basically make a rabid auto-miner that fuels itself, except while normally you'd make it only work on a cave and only mine useful stuff
23:02:54 <elliott> you could make one that just eats everything
23:03:00 <elliott> and assuming it gets enough fuel to keep it going...
23:03:20 <oklopol> you won't without the recursive boxing
23:03:33 <oklopol> you won't get positive prob in the limit with fixed inv size
23:03:55 <elliott> oklopol: it would just throw them into a lava pit
23:04:00 <elliott> or get rid of them some other way
23:04:39 <elliott> oklopol: the blocks it mines?
23:05:16 <elliott> oklopol: the idea is basically: mine everything; stuff that can be used as fuel goes in the furnace-power-generator; everything else gets destroyed
23:05:19 <oklopol> i just realized fixed inventory size doesn't matter because you can just leave blocks in stacks or something, until you've proven you have enough later on or something
23:05:32 <elliott> eventually the whole world would just be, like, bluestone circuits
23:05:38 <elliott> or actually just bedrock with this hovering death-machine in the sky
23:05:44 <elliott> since it'd mine the blocks that it puts bluestone on eventually
23:05:48 <elliott> which would cause it to fall
23:05:50 <oklopol> right you actually do need fuel
23:06:00 <elliott> oklopol: yeah in this case there'd be no redstone torches
23:06:05 <oklopol> so then what i said earlier: eventually it'll stop
23:06:07 <elliott> you'd have to burn a certain item in a furnace and that'd generate current
23:06:12 <elliott> oklopol: sure, but the point is,
23:06:19 <elliott> oklopol: whenever it mines fuel, it uses it to fuel itself
23:06:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ok, sometimes the info to the pascalites, release v, level 1.2.
23:06:31 <elliott> oklopol: and it'd have multiple redundant furnaces to keep it going
23:06:46 <elliott> oklopol: sure if you had a GIGANTIC area with no useful fuels... but then you could just double the initial furnaces and try again :>
23:06:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:07:12 <oklopol> elliott: can it build more furnaces or something?
23:07:25 <oklopol> the point is, if it only has a fixed amount of storage for excess fuel
23:07:33 <oklopol> then the probability of stopping is 1
23:07:36 <elliott> oklopol: the world is finite, you recall.
23:07:46 <elliott> although i suppose you are working in a hypothetical infinite universe :)
23:07:57 <oklopol> mathematically more interesting
23:07:58 <elliott> oklopol: it could build more furnaces, sure, if it got the materials
23:08:11 <oklopol> otherwise i could just say there's positive prob for the world being empty
23:08:14 <elliott> oklopol: and the probability of getting the requisite cobbles for building a furnace before it dies is, like, 1, according to the minecraft rng
23:08:43 <elliott> oklopol: note that this death machine would have to be VERY complicated and would probably take up more space than the alu or cpu :)
23:08:53 <elliott> since not only does it have to mine, but it has to plan its mining so that it leaves enough tracks for _it_ to go on
23:09:06 <oklopol> well, if it can build arbitrarily large amounts of furnaces, maybe you can manage it, at least then it's not trivial that you can't.
23:09:09 <elliott> and also it has to bring the materials back, decide what to do with them, build more furnaces, move them into place, dispose of waste from uranium fuel, etc.
23:09:40 <oklopol> sure, but that's just engineering ;)
23:09:53 <oklopol> any monkey with a phd can do it
23:09:56 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, FWIW, nuclear bombs are the other use for uranium.
23:10:01 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: oh joy :D
23:10:41 <Phantom__Hoover> Craft uranium, dynamite and iron into a bomb, which is then detonatable by a bluestone charge.
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23:11:03 <oklopol> i'd like to craft HER anium if you know what i mean
23:11:17 <elliott> pikhq: the project gutenberg license is non-free :D
23:11:39 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: how big boom
23:12:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I suggest it requires one uranium, four dynamite, and four iron
23:12:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: uranium in middle, surrounded by dynamite, iron in the corners
23:12:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: actually iron is a bit out of place...
23:12:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: it's too common
23:12:42 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: may i suggest diamond? :D
23:12:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Well, the point is that the uranium is the really rare bit.
23:13:23 <Phantom__Hoover> Also, there would be *very* few reasons to detonate it unless in PvP SMP.
23:14:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Griefer's dream. Well, really dedicated mining griefer.
23:14:21 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean, I'm thinking of damage on the order of scouring all of the earth for kilometres around, and making vast areas unusable due to radiation.
23:14:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I suggest that smelting uranium ore produces only one uranium.
23:14:52 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: But counts as, say, 16 to 32 units of smelting.
23:14:55 <elliott> So you need, e.g., more than one coal to do it.
23:15:23 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: OH I HAVE A WONDERFUL IDEA
23:15:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: The utility is that smelting uranium becomes slower and more resource-using.
23:15:42 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: WONDERFUL IDEA:
23:15:49 <Phantom__Hoover> Once you have any uranium ore, you'll have heaps of coal anyway.
23:15:51 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: When using uranium as a fuel for smelting, I said it produces 64 nuclear waste.
23:16:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It produces, say, 512 nuclear waste. If it has 64 and wants to generate another one, the furnace *explodes*.
23:16:31 <elliott> Specifically, all bluestone it's connected to catches fire, and an explosion is made.
23:16:38 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: That, of course, is the reactor meltdown.
23:17:03 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Maybe more than one TNT, reactor meltdowns are pretty nasty.
23:17:32 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, due to nuclear leakage, not due to explosive power.
23:17:44 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Oh, fine. You're no fun but okay.
23:18:15 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Of course, you could "wrap" this up in a safe reactor, which uses BLUESTONE MAGIC to take out the nuclear waste and dispose of it safely. Or even, if you want a small design.
23:18:29 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean, you end up with an effectively unusable patch of lang.
23:18:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: just have one that detects when the thing becomes full of nuclear waste and takes out the uranium.
23:18:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Oo, er, slight issue.
23:19:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: 32 full of nuclear waste in smelting output. You take the uranium out. You put it back in.
23:19:15 <elliott> ZOMG INFINITE URANIUM POWER
23:20:03 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, make the uranium inaccessible like coal and other normal fuels?
23:20:25 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Then how do you prevent meltdown if it fills with nuclear waste? Oh, duh, you destroy the furnace.
23:20:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Or that, yes.
23:20:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: OK, so the simplest safe reactor would be a furnace hooked up to a circuit that detects when there's 64 waste, and destroys the furnace.
23:21:05 <elliott> Although detecting when there's 64 waste would probably require a chest to do it in, at which point you might as well just use the disposal-version.
23:21:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Hmm, I feel like being able to destroy nuclear waste easily in lava is a bit of a cop out.
23:21:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: How about: Throwing nuclear waste into lava gradually irradiates it. When it fully radiates, it turns into obsidian.
23:21:38 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, this makes no sense, but who cares?
23:22:06 <Phantom__Hoover> MC doesn't *have* any mechanic to make anything impossible to dispose, really;
23:22:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And then a self-sustaining circuit would then mine the obsidian, get more lava, put lava in the hole again, and throw the obsidian into the lava.
23:22:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And no, but impossible to dispose is boring; this just makes it _annoying_ to dispose of in large amounts.
23:22:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: omg, I so want to have all of this in the game ... but the Java work would be immense, and Notch would break it every update.
23:23:09 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, erm, you can just throw things and leave them for 15 minutes.
23:23:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Thrown nuclear waste acts like placed nuclear waste.
23:23:45 <elliott> i.e. gradually irradiates a large surrounding area.
23:24:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And ideally it'd remember what chunks have thrown nuclear waste in, and record when it was thrown in the chunk file.
23:24:27 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, then just make a chamber deep underground and throw everything there.
23:24:57 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "Too irradiated to use"?
23:25:04 <elliott> Anyway, I would imagine that radiation has infinite upwards extent.
23:25:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes, but you reach a point where it kills you in 5 seconds.
23:25:49 <elliott> So basically throwing it in a pit doesn't help.
23:26:59 <oklopol> can't you just make it a block that cannot be dropped
23:27:18 <elliott> oklopol: Yes, that's probably the best idea.
23:27:33 <oklopol> because the point is you need to find a place for it, if you can just put 64 in a 1x1x1 hole, that's kinda lame
23:28:18 * oklopol is looking at himself on top of a dancing minecart
23:28:58 <elliott> oklopol: :D i've done that before
23:29:13 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Consider...
23:29:46 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Also, idea: N-thick (3?) obsidian blocks all radiation. Dump nuclear waste by storing it in large chests surrounded by thick obsidian. Make creepy underground passageways with warning signs to there. NEVER VISIT EVER.
23:30:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "This place is not a place of honour", etc.
23:30:21 <elliott> (Have you read that paper or a summary of it of any kind? It's awesome.)
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23:31:05 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Idea: Dropping nuclear waste starts irradiating the area around you EXTREMELY rapidly.
23:31:13 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Makes no sense? Absolutely. Will stop anyone dropping it? Absolutely.
23:31:28 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: why is it silly?
23:31:50 <elliott> oklopol: imagine an object in your pocket you can't throw out
23:31:55 <elliott> but not being able to throw something?
23:32:30 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, it just makes the whole idea pointlessly impractical.
23:33:02 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: then maybe you could have less then 64 of it, and you can't just carry it around in huge quantities, or you'll start getting damage at some point
23:33:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Other idea: iron chests which block radiation enough to make it practical to store uranium.
23:33:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: WRT those nuclear warnings, I have a feeling that future idiotic explorers might see it as "ha ha, this primitive culture thought they could keep us away from their treasure by making up some 'death-ium'!"
23:33:24 <elliott> OTOH, maybe it's best that such recklessness has its consequences demonstrated in the early days of a society.
23:33:28 <oklopol> 's chest idea makes it wait he explained
23:33:28 <elliott> oklopol: don't see how what
23:33:40 <oklopol> i think that's even sillier
23:33:50 <Phantom__Hoover> (Gold blocks make best sense as shielding, followed by much larger amounts of iron.)
23:34:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Just make gold chests.
23:34:08 <elliott> Gold would become actually useful.
23:34:20 <Phantom__Hoover> (Obsidian would actually be pretty useless IRL, since it's mainly silicon.)
23:34:25 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I do think that you should be able to hold on to uranium for a few in-game days without starting to feel the radiation.
23:34:29 <elliott> I mean, you need to handle it.
23:34:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: OTOH, gold chests should probably decay if given tons of time.
23:35:07 <oklopol> you get radiation bubbles which start popping every few hours
23:35:19 <oklopol> ofc if you're holding 64...
23:35:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I do think that obsidian should block it, 'cuz obsidian is basically made out of magic in Minecraft.
23:35:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: But only thick obsidian.
23:35:31 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And it must have *no holes*.
23:35:34 <elliott> Any holes --> radiation gets out.
23:35:56 <elliott> Obsidian-coated gold chests is what you do every real-world month to dispose of your current pile-up of waste.
23:36:06 <elliott> (You do NOT want to break that obsidian.)
23:36:27 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Oh, and perhaps you need to leave enough space for the chest to burst.
23:36:42 <elliott> i.e. if you store 64 obsidian in a gold chest, you need 63 free blocks surrounded by obsidian around the chest.
23:36:51 <elliott> So that when the chest decays and the waste bursts out, it doesn't escape.
23:37:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Aaaand this is why it's sad that an awesome programmer didn't think of MC before Notch did.
23:38:02 <elliott> Instead he's deciding on release dates and getting a documentary filmed.
23:39:29 <Phantom__Hoover> Is there a chance of us getting a decent game in the same vein any time soon?
23:40:01 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Clearly that must be Heavy Hoover FUN Industries' second product after ASTEROIDS II: NEWTONIAN BOOGALOO.
23:40:09 <elliott> *Hoover Heavy FUN Industries'
23:42:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: oklopol's game will probably be decent if impossible.
23:42:20 <zzo38> I figured out how I could make it read the log file, almost. I could do like: tex example > example.fot and then read that file in using TeX. But it won't work unless file contains \message{} command to force it to wake up otherwise it won't read past a certain point.
23:42:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's like Minecraft except 2D and it has no textures and creatures are super-deadly and everything is random and he came up with it before MC
23:43:24 <oklopol> no i came up with this particular one tons after mc, i just hadn't heard about mc
23:43:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Also, oklopol HAS made games before, albeit impossible-to-play ones.
23:43:31 <elliott> oklopol: same thing really
23:43:35 <elliott> oklopol: independent invention
23:43:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: What about it.
23:43:46 <oklopol> well now mine has also all the few good ideas of mc
23:43:59 <elliott> Oh, right, oklopol also invented Asteroids II unintentionally.
23:44:18 <zzo38> I made a lot of game too but probably nothing like that.
23:44:31 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, remember that polygon gravitational thing you mentioned?
23:44:41 <elliott> oklopol: Asteroids II is the game slowly crawling its way outside of the 2D Newtonian physics simulation.
23:44:46 <oklopol> you're growing that out of that thing of yours?
23:45:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: http://vjn.fi/index.php?g=0 oklo's games plus some other stuff
23:45:52 <oklopol> the mc type game of mine will mostly be about coding bots, you can't really survive otherwise
23:46:11 <elliott> oklopol: are the .exes python-compiled
23:46:14 <elliott> or are they not written in py
23:46:23 <oklopol> (you're not supposed to let your player die)
23:46:30 <oklopol> erm actually i'm considering using c#
23:46:35 <elliott> oklopol: i mean the games you've made
23:46:38 <oklopol> since someone taught me to make pixels in it..
23:46:47 <oklopol> c++ and non-compiled python
23:46:55 <zzo38> oklopol: Why do you have to use C# if just C should work?
23:47:04 <oklopol> i don't know how to make a pixel in c
23:47:15 <oklopol> also, C is the worst language in the world
23:47:31 <oklopol> well who wouldn't, but i'd rather use c++
23:47:42 <elliott> oklopol: putpixel(screen, x, y, colour)
23:47:46 <zzo38> oklopol: Why you don't know how? And what is so bad with C? I prefer Enhanced CWEB to make a C program.
23:47:57 <elliott> although _putpixel() is faster
23:48:02 <elliott> you just have to decide what colour depth you want
23:48:06 <oklopol> zzo38: i don't know how to make a pixel because no one told me how one is drawn
23:48:16 <elliott> oklopol: putpixel(screen, x, y, colour)
23:48:18 <Phantom__Hoover> zzo38, STOP MENTIONING YOUR GODDAMN _EXTENSION_ TO A PREEXISTING PROGRAM SOMEONE ELSE WROTE.
23:48:28 <elliott> oklopol: fully: putpixel(screen, x, y, makecol(r, g, b))
23:48:33 <zzo38> oklopol: It depends what system you are using for screen drawing.
23:48:42 <elliott> oklopol: so now you gotta use C! also it'll be faster :p
23:48:46 <zzo38> Like, it might be different SDL with Allegro, for example.
23:48:46 <oklopol> elliott: but so can i just open a text editor, write that inside mine and compile?
23:48:48 <elliott> and have a better chance of running on linux
23:49:07 <elliott> oklopol: you have to put allegro_init(); first and then like a few lines to tell it what size screen you want
23:49:12 <elliott> oklopol: plus tell it that you, like, want a keyboard
23:49:21 <elliott> allegro is very simple as these things go
23:49:50 <zzo38> I prefer to use SDL, but you can use Allegro if you prefer.
23:49:57 <elliott> oklopol: http://alleg.sourceforge.net/docs/how_to_make_a_pong_game.en.html Pong in Allegro, obviously you can ignore all the stupid image/sprite/mouse stuff
23:49:58 <oklopol> well, that does sound nice enough. but the pathfinding algos i have are rather complicated, and would probably be faster in c# than me-written c
23:50:09 <elliott> oklopol: erm i find that doubtful
23:50:13 <elliott> oklopol: unless you're like a mega leet c# coder
23:50:26 <elliott> since ~pretty much the same algorithm can be done in C for all such algorithms
23:50:36 <elliott> and C has the advantage of not having all the vm baggage and also of having well-tuned compilers
23:50:41 <zzo38> oklopol: Is there a problem with C that you cannot do #try #catch that operating at *compile time*?
23:50:47 <oklopol> well i certainly am not, but i don't understand anything about cache of anything, and i can't exactly just load chunks when player goes near like mc can
23:51:11 <elliott> oklopol: well uh C# doesn't cache for you
23:51:16 <elliott> it's not that much higher-level than C
23:51:18 <elliott> objects don't solve caching :P
23:51:21 <elliott> oklopol: so you're gonna simulate an infinite world every frame?
23:51:23 <oklopol> zzo38: the problem is C isn't very high level
23:51:33 <oklopol> i mean i find math too low level
23:51:34 <elliott> C# is just java with lambdas.
23:51:56 <oklopol> nowadays i prefer lack of communication.
23:52:22 <elliott> oklopol: or oklotalk! write it in oklotalk
23:52:36 <Phantom__Hoover> zzo38, do you seriously not realise that you are just being annoying by constantly bringing up your own solutions to problems nobody has.
23:52:48 <oklopol> elliott: no i'm not going to simulate an infinite world every frame, that would mean nth iteration takes Omega(n) times
23:53:03 <zzo38> I like C, but I think it should have a few more compile-time directives such as ones to catch compiler errors and warnings, and to tell the optimizer about various things that might even be wrong...
23:53:05 <oklopol> but i'm simulating a huge part of the world, preferably
23:53:06 <elliott> oklopol: it would take O(infinity) time :D which is the same as O(0)
23:53:13 <elliott> oklopol: then C will help for the pure number-crunching speed
23:53:21 <elliott> oklopol: do blocks have any more state than what type of block they are?
23:53:46 <oklopol> elliott: c# is much higher-level, but i guess if i dl'd nice data structures for c someone competent has made, it would just have uglier syntax.
23:55:03 <oklopol> messages don't travel infinitely far
23:55:34 <elliott> 23:52 elliott: oklopol: do blocks have any more state than what type of block they are?
23:55:51 <oklopol> elliott: blocks can be programmed arbitrarily, and different blocks have different "components" that determine what they can actually physically do
23:56:10 <oklopol> arbitrarily, although depends on block how much programming it allows, most blocks are pretty stupid
23:56:26 <elliott> oklopol: so you can create a new block the behaves pretty much exactly how you like by programming?
23:57:02 <oklopol> as i said, most blocks will not be all that useful
23:57:16 <elliott> oklopol: right, the issue there is that your world update gets a whole lot slower
23:57:16 <zzo38> Phantom__Hoover: Why do you think they are nobody problems?
23:57:25 <oklopol> say they have an empty list of components
23:57:36 <elliott> oklopol: it's turned from basically an advanced, big cellular automaton with wider effects into running millions of programs per frame :D
23:57:46 <oklopol> elliott: it's just optimized away unless you start madly programming blocks.
23:58:01 <elliott> oklopol: ok, so there are basically "predefined blocks", and "programmed blocks"?
23:58:05 <elliott> where the former are optimisations of the latter
23:58:35 <oklopol> yes. conceptual purity in an impure way.
23:58:48 <oklopol> because true purity is a bit out of reach
23:58:57 <elliott> oklopol: how many predefined blocks, 256, 16 thousand, or way more?
23:59:41 <oklopol> blocks stop executing far enough from the player, probably. the pure reason being then you need to keep your player block near
00:00:12 <elliott> oklopol: but how many predefined block types will there be :P
00:00:12 <oklopol> elliott: combinations of as many features as i can come up with, and can make work together
00:00:21 <oklopol> you can just read the code of the blocks to see what they do
00:00:24 <elliott> oklopol: as in, an actual number
00:00:45 <oklopol> well astronomically many, because it's features that are optimized, not individual blocks
00:00:57 <elliott> oklopol: so a block is a set of features?
00:01:29 <oklopol> basically it's a list of components that perform a physical action, and a program that executes them.
00:01:51 <elliott> oklopol: so the former are like...limbs?
00:02:23 <oklopol> you can think of them that way, but components can teleport, change the block's shape, move it, copy it, change programs of other blocks, glue to other blocks, etc
00:02:48 <elliott> oklopol: so what _is_ a component
00:03:01 <elliott> oklopol: also, so, there are no hardcoded programs?
00:03:03 <oklopol> there's also a kind of discrete version of euclidean physics in play, for when you build make huge structures, but dunno if i'll actually implement that
00:03:05 <elliott> if blocks aren't hardcoded, just features
00:03:48 <oklopol> the programs shouldn't be very complicated
00:03:58 <elliott> oklopol: so updating the world is running millions of programs, still.
00:04:04 <elliott> that's not going to be fast.
00:04:17 <oklopol> not really, many of them will be event-based, and can just be unloaded
00:04:46 <elliott> oklopol: :D so it's actually a table of programs?
00:05:07 <oklopol> and the programs are executed very slowly. and why do you say that? just a programming language that allows events.
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00:05:58 <elliott> oklopol: so updating the world does not actually run the block programs?
00:06:02 <oklopol> so anyway basically if you find a block that can execute a lot of code, you might still need a block that computes a specific type of function or your bot will take ages doing that in software
00:06:07 <oklopol> for instance pathfinding is like this
00:06:29 <oklopol> elliott: it does on paper, but the world is designed so that it can usually be optimized awayt.
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00:07:04 <elliott> oklopol: :D your game is not very conceptually pure, i have no idea what the block structure definition would look like at all
00:08:10 <oklopol> it is. a block has a piece of code that it executes at that blocks execution speed, and can call functions specific to that block.
00:08:22 <oklopol> math, corrently, rather cs type
00:08:46 <oklopol> doing my master's thesis in picture languages, currently doing automata on pics
00:09:20 <oklopol> currently as in forever from now on, but i was doing cs a year ago, and officially changed only after i finished my bachelor's which was a few months ago
00:09:29 <oklopol> again, oklo month which is anywhere between a day and a year
00:09:40 <oklopol> yeah matrices over finite alphabet
00:09:56 <elliott> oklopol: are you still in your second year :)
00:10:06 <oklopol> without any operations, automata theory in 2d, basically
00:10:12 <oklopol> elliott: no, second year of math tho
00:10:28 <oklopol> yeah third year of uni going
00:10:48 <elliott> i wonder how you and Sgeo can be in the same room without, like, exploding
00:10:51 <elliott> matter, antimatter, that sorta shit
00:11:01 <oklopol> if you count the cs time, i'm only half a year ahead of the usual scheduly, degreewise
00:11:30 <zzo38> elliott: It is not a bomb. It is a device that is (not) exploding.
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00:11:53 <elliott> oklopol: yes but you have a stupidly large awesome surplus
00:12:01 <oklopol> lol i'm not that good, my master's thesis is going to be complete bullshit for instance
00:12:26 <oklopol> i have an open problem that i decided to solve
00:12:30 <oklopol> and i haven't been able to
00:12:41 <oklopol> even though anyone could do it
00:13:44 <elliott> oklopol: does your game have gravity
00:14:31 <elliott> who likes restricted movement
00:14:35 <oklopol> gravity exists, but you can hover quite far
00:14:37 <elliott> oklopol: unless you mean like
00:14:43 <elliott> oklopol: air blocks have their program built to push you down
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00:14:47 <oklopol> i don't want lack of gravity, because i like the idea of falling
00:14:49 <elliott> oklopol: and you can just hack their program out if you want :D
00:14:53 <elliott> because that would be... amazing
00:16:47 <oklopol> well see currently there is quite a complicated physics, but i'll probably leave those optional, because i can't imagine others enjoying them.
00:17:15 <elliott> oklopol: dude, my idea was amazing? leave the physics up to the blocks?
00:17:18 <oklopol> because i seem to be the only man on earth who enjoys learning weird physicses
00:17:27 <oklopol> or at least people don't play my cool games :(
00:17:34 <elliott> oklopol: i want to but you only provide exes on vjn ;o
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00:18:11 <oklopol> elliott: erm yeah, physics are up to the blocks of course
00:18:22 <oklopol> but you don't need air to even be an actual block for that
00:18:37 <elliott> oklopol: the great thing is
00:18:44 <elliott> oklopol: have an air meter which goes down very quickly
00:18:52 <elliott> oklopol: then, air blocks just have code to give you air :D
00:19:00 <elliott> and you can make a vacuum, which will suffocate you
00:19:14 <elliott> and if you want to breathe but float, you could hack some air blocks' source
00:19:40 <oklopol> yeah at some point i was thinking about air physics, air pressure etc
00:19:59 <oklopol> not suffocation tho, you have to keep eating to survive anyway
00:20:08 <elliott> oklopol: but then you could just chill in a vacuum
00:20:10 <elliott> which makes little sense :D
00:20:11 <oklopol> (but you just have a program for that ofc)
00:20:21 <elliott> oklopol: also bonus: if stuff like falls on top of you, you suffocate
00:20:27 <elliott> or if you jam your head into stone somehow
00:22:27 <elliott> oklopol: but you could turn yourself into a robot if you wanted right?
00:22:30 <elliott> artificial head etc. just have you as a brain
00:22:47 <oklopol> you can glue blocks to yourself if you get the glueing component
00:22:56 <oklopol> you inherit components from the blocks you own
00:23:21 <oklopol> you can make yourself into a robot, yes, that's basically what the game is about
00:23:27 <elliott> oklopol: can i make a perpetual motion machine
00:24:03 <oklopol> well you have your in-game coding window, which is maybe not your primary, but a very important part of your movement.
00:24:44 <oklopol> and there's a high-level clue-based stack language.........................
00:24:52 <oklopol> maybe i shouldn't have mentioned that
00:25:03 <elliott> oklopol: when can i buy it
00:25:35 <oklopol> i'll try to finish my thesis in february, then start allocating coding time
00:25:49 <oklopol> i have a tiny little coding spark atm, actually
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00:26:02 <elliott> oklopol: i kinda wanna code it somehow except i'd be terrible :D
00:26:56 <oklopol> go ahead, a proof of concept shouldn't be hard to make
00:27:28 <elliott> oklopol: no it sounds _really_ hard
00:27:52 <elliott> oklopol: even doing it in haskell sounds like drudgery :D
00:27:57 <elliott> oklopol: you should write the whole thing in Clue++
00:29:13 <oklopol> basically you have a stack language, but there are events, and a command for "use the components X to achieve Y", which should work for simple things like pathfinding very well, and hopefully could manage some slow stupid way for more complicated things
00:29:35 <oklopol> and the language is very high-level, like you can just directly refer to things you see on map
00:29:51 <oklopol> that's not all that high-level, that clue command is much more high-level :D
00:30:13 <elliott> oklopol: also you should make the code have no text form, clicking blocks to actually put a little line from them to a little point in the code sounds hilariously funsilly
00:30:15 <oklopol> yeah dunno about stack, for some reason it feels natural for that kind of things
00:30:32 <elliott> well, maybe make a block highlight be, like, a picture of a block and its moore neighbours dimmed
00:30:35 <oklopol> yeah, it should be very untexty
00:30:49 <elliott> and you can like hover over it with your mouse and it shows you that part of the map with a red border around the block
00:31:36 <oklopol> yeah that's pretty much what i'm going for
00:32:31 <oklopol> but anyway i'll probably publish the physics before starting to code it
00:32:36 <elliott> oklopol: well then allow me to state the obvious
00:32:43 <oklopol> or at least completely specify them
00:32:43 <elliott> oklopol: have there be another map, filled with functions
00:32:52 <elliott> oklopol: you don't ever use words, you just include parts of the code-map
00:33:06 <elliott> and you can draw a little like 16x16 icon for each block in the code-map
00:33:09 <elliott> so you could fit a few letters on
00:33:14 <elliott> or a representative picture demonstrating its operation
00:33:20 <elliott> and then code is just a sequence of pictures
00:33:24 <oklopol> heh, i wish i didn't find that such a great idea.
00:33:39 <elliott> oklopol: it's great because it'd show you the dimmed neighbours of that function in the actual code... like you know ...
00:33:43 <oklopol> but yeah i was kinda thinking that, something like an inventory of code blocks
00:33:45 <elliott> oklopol: if you liked this function, why not try these similar functions...
00:35:22 <elliott> oklopol: okay but seriously, it would be cool
00:35:33 <oklopol> yeah but anyway, mainly i'm interested in enemies.
00:35:35 <elliott> oklopol: those function-squares?
00:35:39 <elliott> oklopol: should be doors leading into function rooms
00:35:50 <elliott> oklopol: that's right: individual pieces of code are themselves a map
00:35:54 <elliott> after all, they're just a bunch of blocks
00:36:01 <elliott> stop laughing, i am a revolutionary
00:36:41 <elliott> oklopol: so that's how you're doing it, yes?
00:37:17 <oklopol> anyway the thing is i want the game to be fucking scary, you never know if the next block you mine out is a tree that grows 5 blocks at a time for 10 seconds, then explodes
00:37:45 <oklopol> you have to use bots to mine, and try to find ways to do that safely
00:37:53 <elliott> oklopol: question, is it realtime or turnbased
00:38:47 <oklopol> realtime, a couple moves a second, where a move could be moving to your neighbor cell. (it will actually look rather smooth tho, because you have to look at it all the time.)
00:39:17 <oklopol> like when you start, it's that, of course later on your player block can basically just teleport whereever it wants
00:40:50 <elliott> oklopol: but time is like... boring?
00:41:42 <oklopol> it's on the commutative free group with two generators, the second most done to death thing in the mathematical world
00:42:12 <oklopol> time i do not mind, however.
00:42:16 <elliott> oklopol: but time is lame.
00:42:33 <elliott> oklopol: at least make each second take an amount of time determined by a complex formula
00:43:37 <oklopol> time slows down further away from sentient blocks
00:44:21 <oklopol> and comes to a stop, eventually (i would make it never come to a stop due to purity, but that's not very practical)
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00:45:51 <elliott> oklopol: just make it so that some kind of circuit fails if time is going too slowly
00:45:56 <elliott> and it turns out, everything is made out of this circuit!
00:46:40 <elliott> oklopol: then your problem is solved PURELY
00:47:12 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: just make it so that some kind of circuit fails if time is going too slowly"
00:47:17 <oklopol> somehow i managed to read something like
00:47:33 <oklopol> "doesn't it make certain kinds of circuits fail if time slows down at a certain boundary"
00:48:17 <oklopol> because this is a very bad thing if you want to have say a computer: it doesn't just stop when you move away, it might completely break due to time slowing in an unfortunate way in one part of the machine
00:48:46 <elliott> oklopol: just make the story be that everything is made out of this material or whatever
00:48:59 <elliott> oklopol: and that its interactions break down when time gets too slow, such that it just sort of warbles on the spot
00:49:05 <elliott> oklopol: and then starts running again if time is faster
00:49:12 <oklopol> but, 1) these distances are very big, 2) this is a completely documented (or at least consistent) physics thing, so you just have to deal with it.
00:49:23 <elliott> then, you can simulate infinite time-slowdown, with a discrete universe
00:49:34 <elliott> just by ignoring all blocks beyond a certain point
00:49:39 <elliott> and this is deemed OK by the pure physics
00:50:38 <oklopol> well, anything can be called pure, and somehow implemented in-game, conceptually. although i'm sure this is a rather kill-joy thing to say
00:51:15 <elliott> oklopol: specify the pure semantics based on the semantics of finite-state machines, x86, Unix, and C
00:51:18 <elliott> oklopol: SO PURE YET SO PRACTICAL
00:51:29 <Vorpal> elliott, cool craftbook has "ICs" that shoot arrows. I'm building a battery of them now
00:52:12 <oklopol> also pvp should be more fun when you can program thousands of blocks to fight each other
00:52:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, too many arrow cause lag
00:52:39 <Vorpal> even when they are on ground
00:52:46 <oklopol> we're talking about my nonexistant game, no lag in that one.
00:53:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, I was talking about craftbook
00:53:28 <oerjan> elliott: your radiation stuff should mutate animals into monsters. just saying.
00:53:51 <elliott> oerjan: way ahead of you :D
00:54:01 <oerjan> elliott: i didn't see you mentioning that...
00:54:08 <elliott> my head calculates quickly
00:54:18 <elliott> oerjan: i was thinking they'd turn into rotting, crazy animals that die easily but are vicious
00:54:29 <elliott> oerjan: or maybe sometimes they are really hard to kill thanks to radiative superpowers
00:54:37 <elliott> oerjan: i just couldn't perfect it enough to be worth saying yet :D
00:55:10 <oklopol> all of that feels so small-scale now that i have my game in my head again.
00:57:00 <oklopol> another thing i'd like to make is this game where you have an arbitrary monoid, and you can walk on it, dunno what the game is really, or if there is one, i have this marvelous way to project it in 3d
00:57:22 <oklopol> but it can't fit in an irc message
00:58:17 <elliott> oerjan: so do you play MC :D
00:58:47 <oklopol> no he's too busy doing things
00:59:11 <elliott> oerjan: if i giftcoded you it would you play it, it sounds like a hilarious event
01:01:47 <elliott> oerjan: you would ... reject my purchase??!?!?!?! ;(
01:01:50 <elliott> oerjan: take that insult back
01:01:56 <oklopol> oerjan: you can't do that, that's stealing
01:02:37 <elliott> i'm trying to convince oerjan that he should play minecraft
01:03:08 <cheater00> i think he's sort of had this thing where he was "siding with me" in not playing minecraft
01:03:24 <elliott> oerjan: are you aware of any alliance with cheater00
01:03:39 <oklopol> oerjan: what's your relationship with cheater00?
01:03:47 <oerjan> it would be useless as i would undoubtedly trigger my rsi
01:03:54 <elliott> cheater00: well i kinda know you for making up bullshit theories to explain random things you see. usually related to yourself
01:03:58 <elliott> oerjan: rsi enhances the experience
01:04:20 <cheater00> elliott: that's because i am god and everything i say immediately becomes reality... right?
01:04:36 <cheater00> oerjan: play with the other hand!!!!!!!!!!
01:04:55 <oklopol> haha yeah the one YOU DON'T USE FOR MASTURBATION :dDDDDDDDDD
01:05:04 <oerjan> cheater00: none of my hands are entirely free of it
01:05:09 <cheater00> also elliott, the functions of the mouse buttons, can you remap them to the keyboard somehow?
01:05:17 <cheater00> because you mostly only get rsi when you click the mouse
01:05:23 <cheater00> if you just move it around it's much better
01:05:30 <elliott> surely. but not with minecraft itself
01:05:33 <cheater00> oklopol: :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:05:52 <elliott> also it's nice to have them on the mouse
01:06:02 <elliott> oerjan: i'll pay you, regularly, to play minecraft
01:06:02 <oerjan> cheater00: also it's not _really_ rsi because my feet hurt as well
01:06:16 <cheater00> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:06:21 <oerjan> but it definitely gets worse when i play games
01:06:21 <oklopol> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxD
01:06:33 <cheater00> <oklopol> haha yeah the one YOU DON'T USE FOR MASTURBATION :dDDDDDDDDD
01:06:43 <oklopol> is that why you couldn't play mastur minecra minesweeper
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01:07:08 <cheater00> never mind masturbating with the feet..
01:07:20 <oklopol> i remember i told my record
01:07:29 <oklopol> and oerjan is like LOL goddammit oklo ur so nub
01:07:37 <elliott> oklopol: your masturbation record?
01:07:39 <oklopol> i can do it in like MINUTE
01:07:49 <elliott> oerjan gets it down to, like, 20 seconds
01:07:49 <oklopol> and i go well do it and show vid
01:07:52 <elliott> unfortunately it's given him rsi
01:07:58 <oklopol> then says nah hands can't do it.
01:08:14 <elliott> oklopol: i see no reason _whatsoever_ to read your words with the correct interpretation
01:08:18 <oklopol> true story, do you remember oerjan?
01:08:20 <elliott> although i suspect you might have been encouraging that. sightly.
01:08:29 <oklopol> the part i said, the others may have added stuff
01:08:59 <oklopol> i'm angry at you people for doing that
01:09:09 <elliott> i have damaged oerjan's stellar reputation
01:09:10 <oklopol> and just for that i'm never letting you play my game
01:09:37 <cheater00> <x> but that would be more expensive and generate more heat
01:09:48 <oklopol> <z> haha ur mum generate heat
01:09:49 <cheater00> <x> i just want something i can order and plug in ;(
01:09:58 <oklopol> <z> haha like a sexual dol
01:10:00 <elliott> cheater00: censoring usernames = lame
01:10:13 <elliott> cheater00: also that quote wasn't...funny
01:10:27 <cheater00> i don't want you quazimodos bothering srs ppl
01:10:39 <elliott> cheater00: usernames != channel name
01:11:03 <HackEgo> 139) <Bubo> ooh a test to see your procrastination hotspots <Bubo> ill do it later
01:11:04 <HackEgo> 126) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing
01:11:04 <HackEgo> 109) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.?
01:11:04 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so.
01:11:04 <HackEgo> 249) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
01:11:12 <elliott> cheater00: who would bother doing that
01:11:56 <elliott> oklopol talking is a gift to anyone so stfu
01:12:14 <oklopol> yeah just the other day i was talking about bukkake on this channel on programming
01:12:24 <cheater00> what was your gift for christmas???????????????????????
01:12:25 <oklopol> everyone was like OH GOD WHERES THE OPS ::DOS
01:12:36 <elliott> oklopol: i don't recall oh god wheres the ops :P
01:12:38 <elliott> oklopol: "about programming"
01:12:46 <cheater00> oklopol: you seriously need to die xD
01:13:11 <oklopol> i'm surprisingly hard to kill
01:13:28 <oklopol> i got this 2tb drive actually
01:13:34 <oklopol> i guess that was sorta a present from my mumma
01:13:49 <elliott> afaik 2.5 is the largest drive you can actually buy :p
01:13:51 <oklopol> yes, they didn't have smaller ones
01:14:00 <oklopol> so i'll have to do with that
01:14:26 <oklopol> i'm not gonna put an os on it
01:14:45 <cheater00> oklopol has a computer with no operating system in it
01:15:06 <cheater00> he turns it on, lets it fail booting, and then tries different keyboard inputs to see if anything happens like on a c64.
01:16:05 <oklopol> this computer has maybe dunno 200gb
01:16:44 <oklopol> nowadays i usually stream everything
01:17:19 <oklopol> i do not have donkey porn on my hd
01:17:33 <oerjan> you can lead a donkey to the stream, but you can't make it drink
01:17:35 <cheater00> oklopol is the registrar ceo for www.donkeyporn
01:18:01 <oerjan> one of the lesser known toplevel domains
01:18:27 <oklopol> it seems i foresaw the funny
01:18:51 <oerjan> they had to allow it but chose to keep it under lids
01:19:49 <oerjan> it's banned in most muslim countries though. not because they're donkeys, but because some of them are male.
01:20:33 <oklopol> lol it links femanic there
01:21:49 <oklopol> rule 34 is pretty silly, clearly none of the people advertising it have actually researched the subject
01:22:20 <elliott> oklopol: no no it's far more subtle than you believe
01:22:32 <elliott> oklopol: it's essentially a platonist statement
01:22:49 <elliott> oklopol: basically you can't consider 34 along, 35 is just as important
01:22:55 <elliott> oklopol: porn *exists*, but if porn *doesn't* exist, it will be made
01:23:37 <elliott> oklopol: the point is: 34 is "For every thing, there _exists_ porn of it." but 35 is "For every thing, if the _extant_ porn of it is has not been _realised_ and distributed yet, then it is _guaranteed_ to be at some point in the future (given that civilisation continues)."
01:23:57 <elliott> oklopol: i.e., when porn of something is created for which no porn previously existed, it is actually just being _realised_; it already existed in the platonic realm of ideas.
01:24:16 <elliott> therefore, rules 34 and 35 can and do coexist without contradiction; they are both completely true.
01:24:22 <elliott> a deep philosophical statement.
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01:25:09 <oklopol> we're talking about esolangs
01:25:29 <oklopol> i wanted to start explaining clue but ugh
01:25:44 <Sgeo> Someone should rule34 Brainfuck
01:26:29 <oerjan> as long as you didn't come to conquer
01:26:56 <oklopol> clue is pretty awesome tho
01:27:57 <oerjan> division is quite accepted here
01:28:31 <oklopol> heeey found it www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar
01:28:37 <hagb4rd> at least to anything but zero
01:28:41 <oklopol> probably doesn't work with current pythons :(
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01:31:08 <oklopol> every time an error in the official clue imp is corrected, a new u is added
01:31:16 <oklopol> the name is still clue because i'm very smart
01:31:41 <oerjan> unlike others who have no clue
01:31:49 <oklopol> actually me and a uni friend designed a much nicer conditional system but i've been too lazy to implement it
01:31:57 <oklopol> that was like when clue was first implemented
01:32:01 <oklopol> so what was that like last week
01:32:08 <elliott> "SKI compiles in about 20 seconds on my machine."
01:32:12 <elliott> "All this code is mine, don't touch it unless you really want to."
01:32:39 <elliott> oklopol: so is oklotalk superseded by clue
01:32:44 <oklopol> ilkka made an interp for random or what's it called
01:33:42 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Random? :P
01:33:42 <oklopol> a language on esolang, pretty retarded
01:33:52 <elliott> oklopol: so is oklotalk 2 clue++
01:34:19 <elliott> clue where everything is an oklotalk object? :P
01:34:24 <elliott> def funthatreturnsntharg(i):
01:34:25 <elliott> return lambda*args:args[i]
01:34:28 <elliott> i like your naming convention
01:34:42 <oklopol> basically i'd like clue with something like object
01:34:55 <elliott> oklopol: right, and then you'll code oklOS in it
01:35:18 <elliott> oklopol: where you write programs by drawing a gui, drawing the result of using this gui, repeat a few times, and give it a few clues as to what operation the program performs
01:35:23 <elliott> and it spits out a half-broken gui app object
01:35:27 <oklopol> but most importantly, the concept of strategies.
01:36:13 <elliott> oklopol: so erm is there a way to get clue to print out the function it infers
01:36:44 <oklopol> maybe the compiler has a way, but the code is not very structured
01:36:56 <oklopol> (and of course even if it were, you wouldn't know by reading it)
01:37:07 <elliott> # functions are applied (using applier and aritiers) randomly to objects, to get new objects
01:37:33 <oklopol> not in that implementation, i think
01:37:40 <elliott> afaict it has no actual interface :)
01:37:59 <elliott> oklopol: hmm i think if you print out the function right before compiling it to a func it would work
01:38:09 <oklopol> but it's not specified, so that could be sensible, probably it's just poetic.
01:38:11 <hagb4rd> nice article on that topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass
01:38:45 <oklopol> of course it doesn't have an interface, interfaces are for people who don't have faces exter.
01:39:03 <oklopol> i hope that is convincing enough
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01:39:21 <elliott> oklopol: this isn't... imprecise SKI is it?
01:39:28 <elliott> oh no that's timing info :D
01:39:45 <oklopol> there should be a rather clear separation of compilation and running
01:39:48 <hagb4rd> "A discrete decision based upon an input having a continuous range of values cannot be made within a bounded length of time."
01:40:24 <elliott> oklopol: i think i'm gonna try and hack cluetofun to print stuff
01:40:43 <oklopol> erm hrm, i have this vague memory that i considered making a nice output form for funcs
01:40:44 <elliott> C[B[IOP([1]:0)], B[IOP([2]:0)], B[IOP([3]:0)], B[IOP([[2, 1]]:0), IOP([[2, 3]]:0)], B[IOP([[[3, 2], 1]]:0), IOP([[[3, 4], 5]]:0)], B[IOP([[3, 2]]:0), IOP([[3, 4]]:0)], B[IOP([[1, 0]]:1), IOP([[[2, 1], 0]]:2), IOP([[[[3, 2], 1], 0]]:3), IOP([[[[[1, 2]]]]]:4), IOP([[[[[[1, 2], 3], 4], 5], 6]]:4)]]
01:40:48 <oklopol> maybe i never got to that...
01:40:49 <elliott> oklopol: does that look like post-inferred code?
01:40:54 <elliott> or is that the pre-inferring
01:41:02 <elliott> inferring = working out actual function from the source
01:41:16 <elliott> compile_base(clue.bag,clue.helper_objs,i)
01:41:20 <elliott> compile_rec(clue.bag,clue.helper_objs,i)
01:41:26 <oklopol> 1, 2, 3 are the ski functions
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01:41:34 <elliott> so what should i print, clue.bag?
01:42:00 <oklopol> can i see the... wait what the fuck maybe i can just dl it
01:42:08 <Sgeo> elliott's writing Python?
01:42:38 <elliott> oklopol: why do you use classes, you should write all your python code with functions
01:42:41 <oklopol> hagb4rd: my code, elliott is just reading
01:42:52 <oklopol> elliott: www.vjn.fi/oklopol/python.txt
01:43:09 <elliott> oklopol: yeah that is quite acceptable, but you still use objects
01:43:58 <oklopol> opening the jar of beauty that is clue.py
01:44:20 <elliott> return{'car':nil,'cdr':nil,'length':0}[g]
01:44:22 <elliott> def _(g):return{'car':x,'cdr':y,'length'1+y('length')}[g]
01:44:27 <elliott> oklopol: is this not a more perfect way to implement lists than any other?
01:44:43 <elliott> ofc ideally you'd do your own naturals too for the length
01:44:50 <oklopol> you should probably print code
01:45:33 <elliott> oklopol: that just prints a lot of None :D so i guess compile_clue is the important func
01:45:51 <oklopol> well you have to umm argh i'll read better
01:45:55 <elliott> return call_clue(clue,args,10)
01:45:57 <elliott> funn=stuff.unvararg(fun,clue.arity)
01:46:27 <oklopol> yeah that funn should be the program i think
01:46:58 <elliott> oklopol: yess, but you see it's a python function
01:47:16 <elliott> def call_clue(clue,args,depth_lim):
01:47:18 <elliott> value=clue.condcode(*args)
01:47:22 <elliott> so condcode has something to do with it
01:47:24 <oklopol> compiles all functions in a piece of clue code, and returns a hashtable with these program
01:47:28 <elliott> it's definitely clue.branches
01:47:36 <elliott> return call_branch(clue,i,args,depth_lim)
01:47:41 <oklopol> it's a python function yeah
01:47:42 <elliott> oklopol: clue.branches is the real code, then?
01:47:52 <elliott> oklopol: but then branch.code is a python function :D
01:47:55 <oklopol> indeed i compile to python code
01:47:58 <elliott> oklopol: so what's the precompiled version
01:48:03 <elliott> is there an internal representation
01:48:20 <elliott> [B[IOP([1]:0)], B[IOP([2]:0)], B[IOP([3]:0)], B[IOP([[2, 1]]:0), IOP([[2, 3]]:0)], B[IOP([[[3, 2], 1]]:0), IOP([[[3, 4], 5]]:0)], B[IOP([[3, 2]]:0), IOP([[3, 4]]:0)], B[IOP([[1, 0]]:1), IOP([[[2, 1], 0]]:2), IOP([[[[3, 2], 1], 0]]:3), IOP([[[[[1, 2]]]]]:4), IOP([[[[[[1, 2], 3], 4], 5], 6]]:4)]]
01:48:26 <elliott> which is pretty much what print clue gave :D
01:48:56 <oklopol> i think that does roughly what you want
01:49:58 <oklopol> like just get_ast(funcs["ski apply"]) say
01:50:07 <oklopol> my python is too new, would have to correct a lotta stuff
01:50:09 <elliott> funcs,asts=clue.compile_all(open(cluefile).read(),stuff.funcs)
01:50:19 <elliott> oklopol: asts suggests that compile_all might actually already return the asts?
01:50:22 <elliott> ('ski apply', "Condition: ski type?('#0')\nBase branch (0)\n'#0'\nRec branch (1)\nSubast(0,0):['car', ['cdr', '#0']]\nMain ast: '#1'\nRec branch (2)\nSubast(0,0):['cadar', '#0']\nMain ast: '#1'\nRec branch (3)\nSubast(0,0):['pair', ['cadaar', '#0'], ['car', ['cdr', '#0']]]\nSubast(1,0):['pair', ['cadar', '#0'], ['car', ['cdr', '#0']]]\nSubast(2,0):['pair', '#1', '#2']\nMain ast: '#3'\nRec branch (4)\nSubast(0,0):['car', '#0']\nSubast(
01:50:22 <elliott> 1,0):['pair', '#1', ['car', ['cdr', '#0']]]\nMain ast: '#2'\n")
01:50:23 <oklopol> that just compiles the clues in the code
01:50:30 <elliott> oklopol: asts contains the asts
01:50:34 <elliott> oklopol: so you already had all this code :D
01:50:43 <elliott> oklopol, always one step ahead of oklopol
01:50:53 <oklopol> i just skipped it, "don't need the ast... now how to convert funcs to ast"
01:51:17 <oklopol> anyway dunno if i print that nicely anywhere
01:51:25 <oklopol> i might just have been satisfied with that
01:51:35 <elliott> for k,v in asts.iteritems():
01:51:48 <elliott> still not really readable though
01:53:15 <elliott> oklopol: http://sprunge.us/cERU
01:53:22 <elliott> oklopol: whether you consider this readable or not is down to personal taste.
01:53:35 <elliott> oklopol: i would, personally, prefer it outputted in a format "like" clue source, except without all the actual clue-y parts, but :)
01:53:50 <oklopol> well, obviously you need to know how clue works internally
01:53:53 <elliott> hm is id(x) always true or something
01:54:08 <oklopol> no, it's just the identity function... conditions work kind of weirdly
01:54:10 <elliott> that would seem to me like <more than 3>(x) is only valid if x is true
01:54:25 <oklopol> it's not actually a condition, it's a branch
01:54:48 <elliott> oklopol: but of course. that's why you've called it a condition
01:55:12 <oklopol> you have an expression, and a function on it, then, certain values of that function correspond to certain codes being executed
01:55:18 <oklopol> and there's always a default branch
01:56:51 <elliott> oklopol: clue is kind of pretty really, you started off with the most obviously readable and beautiful way to write a program possible (just show what it should do and let the computer figure it out), and have managed to make it completely incomprehensible and difficult
01:56:51 <oklopol> after Base branch, it shows (x) in parens, that's the value of the condition leading to that branch
01:57:20 <elliott> oklopol: so basically, it does a switch statement (ala C) on the result of the condition?
01:57:27 <elliott> i assume you know what switch is >_>
01:57:43 <oklopol> elliott: yes, that's the whole point, make a beautiful concept really technical and complicated, while technically keeping the basic idea
01:58:26 <oklopol> but anyway that is a stupid system, and there's a better one coming, it's just so you have *some* way of doing stuff
01:58:39 <oklopol> it's really annoying when you have say multiple recursive branches
01:59:07 <elliott> oklopol: i really really have to meet you sometime, i get this feeling you're some kinda being of pure energy
01:59:21 <elliott> who has three modes, programming, mathing, and normal
01:59:30 <elliott> the latter seems a bit boring though
01:59:49 <elliott> oklopol: while programming?
01:59:50 <oklopol> you wouldn't notice me on the street
01:59:57 <elliott> oklopol: that's why i said, three modes
02:00:04 <elliott> one normal, the other two oklopol
02:00:56 <oklopol> i should ask ilkka how all this works
02:01:03 <oklopol> he's probably the only one who gets it
02:01:11 <elliott> no no no shut up i want to get this
02:01:25 <elliott> why do you say <id>, isn't <> for quoting multi word names
02:04:06 <oklopol> make singleton conses two arguments together? maybe i don't know what #0 and #1 are...
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02:04:49 <elliott> oklopol: make singleturn turns x into [x]
02:05:02 <elliott> make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1]
02:05:02 <elliott> . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]}
02:05:02 <elliott> make singleton ~ <id>; cons; #[]
02:05:36 <elliott> oh is that an implicit param
02:05:39 <oklopol> the idea is it gives the empty list as an arg
02:05:54 <oklopol> that's how you do constants
02:06:10 <elliott> it should figure the constants out ITSELF
02:06:21 <elliott> can i just omit the hints entirely
02:06:34 <elliott> will it just try everything
02:06:38 <oklopol> no! that's not what clue is about
02:06:51 <elliott> you are such a fucking cheat
02:06:54 <oklopol> clue is about doing the drudge work BUT MAKING IT LOOK LIKE YOU'RE JUST GIVING THE RESULT
02:07:09 <oklopol> that's why it's so fucking awesome
02:07:24 <elliott> oklopol: you stole "drudge work from me"...bitch
02:07:30 <elliott> *drudge work" from me...bitch
02:07:31 <oklopol> but i mean it's actually pretty nice to read, for simple functions
02:08:05 <oklopol> i did, i take things people say and use them. that's what i do.
02:08:06 <elliott> found at the bottom of cluetest.py
02:09:02 <oklopol> yeeeah i'm not really into solving trivial problems in sensible ways :D
02:09:07 <elliott> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
02:09:12 <elliott> that means my code is insufficiently helpful, right?
02:09:23 <oklopol> erm hrm, i... dunno, what did your code say? :D
02:09:49 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 574, in separate_cond
02:09:49 <elliott> if l[i][0]=="<" and l[i][-1]==">":
02:09:51 <elliott> TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable
02:10:56 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 640, in compile_all
02:10:56 <elliott> raise DepthLimitException("depth limit exceeded ("+i+")")
02:10:56 <elliott> clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (succ)
02:11:08 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 648, in compile_all
02:11:08 <elliott> [i+"("+unfounds[i]+")" for i in compilees if not compilees[i].iscompiled])
02:11:08 <elliott> TypeError: exceptions must be classes or instances, not str
02:11:19 <elliott> oklopol: you fail at triggering errors
02:11:34 <oklopol> yeeeeeah i use strings as errors, it used to be possible
02:11:52 <elliott> oklopol: frowned upon -- you stole that from me from notch
02:12:12 <oklopol> oh you came up with that, i see
02:12:23 <oklopol> anyway, gah, can't you get anything to compile?
02:12:43 <oklopol> it shouldn't be *that* hard :( and i'm not saying ur stup i'm saying clue is
02:12:47 <elliott> oklopol: almost almost almost i can do this
02:13:05 <elliott> Exception: Can't compile succ(<id>)
02:14:18 <elliott> added one testcase, didn't help
02:14:34 <elliott> oklopol: wait, what is this :. stuff
02:14:41 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:14:42 <elliott> is that only for recursive shit
02:15:03 <elliott> more than 3 ~ <id>; #0; #1
02:15:05 <oklopol> should have the same value of condition func
02:15:11 <elliott> around my other testcases?
02:15:13 <elliott> as in have each be separate
02:15:27 <oklopol> <id> and <succ> can't make all those 3 numbers into the same thing!
02:15:55 <elliott> Exception: Can't compile succ(<inc>)
02:16:11 <oklopol> hmm maybe i have old python as well
02:17:45 * oklopol is waiting for ski to compile
02:17:54 <elliott> ski compiles fine here at least
02:18:19 <elliott> oklopol: im gonna try a less ambitious function
02:18:42 <oklopol> took only a minute to compile that
02:19:13 <elliott> note: function is actually is zero
02:19:16 <oklopol> that's wrong tho, isn't it :D
02:19:25 <elliott> I think None matches anything
02:19:40 <elliott> oklopol: can i make the condition a constant?
02:19:42 <oklopol> yeah but <inc> isn't applied is it
02:19:54 <elliott> oklopol: can i make the condition a constant
02:20:44 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:20:49 <oklopol> and then # gives you constants
02:21:03 <elliott> will it actually use them for condition though
02:21:08 <elliott> or will it try and condition on inc or something stupid like that
02:21:50 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
02:22:02 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 419, in parse_number
02:22:02 <elliott> return int(code[:i]),code[i:]
02:22:02 <elliott> ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: '11-'
02:22:23 <elliott> note distinct lack of "11-"
02:22:46 <oklopol> i... wish i knew what to say
02:23:12 <elliott> while i<len(code) and (code[i]=='-' or code[i].isdigit()):
02:23:15 <elliott> return int(code[:i]),code[i:]
02:23:30 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:clue ehird$ python cluetest.py
02:23:40 <elliott> that's code at each iteration
02:23:46 <elliott> how is code growing, it's not even touching code
02:23:52 <elliott> the loop body is literally += 1
02:23:57 <elliott> oh because a different call
02:24:01 <oklopol> i'm laughing my ass off here
02:24:07 <elliott> I forgot the . before the next condition
02:24:14 <elliott> no you didn't, because your syntax sucks
02:24:20 <elliott> or did you notice that and are mocking me
02:24:32 <elliott> Exception: Can't compile succ(<inc>)
02:24:54 <elliott> do the order of hints matter?
02:25:07 <elliott> i think constants have to go last
02:25:12 <elliott> oklopol: default condition?
02:25:25 <elliott> Exception: Can't compile succ(<_>)
02:25:57 <elliott> oklopol: this is the worst language i have ever used ... was gonna say "game i have ever played", my mind can't really view this as a rational activity
02:26:20 <elliott> if str(e)[-12:]=="not callable":
02:26:28 <elliott> oklopol: what on earth made you write that
02:26:43 <elliott> oklopol: did you not consider any of the other 439857349857345 simpler and faster solutions :D
02:27:10 <oklopol> i think i didn't want to open a browser
02:27:46 <oklopol> my first program compiled just fine, but lemme try succ
02:28:59 <elliott> oklopol: things your shitty language cannot handle: this function
02:29:29 <oklopol> see <> means "this is the condition"
02:29:40 <oklopol> so nothing worked when it was used multiple times
02:29:56 <elliott> your language is the worst
02:30:04 <elliott> i thought it was pretty stupid mind :D
02:30:27 <elliott> oklopol: i meant it being used as stdlib
02:30:51 <oklopol> i just threw it in the air more like, then started considering it word of god
02:31:16 <elliott> hmhmm do you have negation in this language perchance
02:31:21 <elliott> or should i just pretend negative numbers don't exist
02:31:37 <oklopol> succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 . 1 -> 2 } succ ~ <id>; inc
02:31:51 <oklopol> well you can just sub from zero i suppose
02:31:56 <elliott> oklopol: ^ less stupid ver :P
02:32:33 <elliott> oklopol: now i just have to figure out how to do "is negative?"
02:33:10 <elliott> does this thing have comments
02:33:18 <oklopol> for a proof of nonexistance of comparison operator
02:33:24 <elliott> oklopol: which less than three function
02:33:51 <Sgeo> What language is tis?
02:34:10 <Sgeo> Eso or noneso, it looks noneso
02:34:38 <oklopol> write a comment and give it a bag...
02:34:43 <Sgeo> Also, linky to info? Is this a new language youre making now?
02:34:47 <oklopol> THIS IS AN COMMENT HERE RIGHT HERE ~ <ID>
02:34:52 <elliott> oklopol: comments to erase my undone code :D
02:34:59 <elliott> Sgeo: it's pretty old actually
02:35:01 <oklopol> yeah sorry, nothing for that.
02:35:07 <oklopol> was wondering why you'd need them
02:35:08 <elliott> oklopol: maybe i'll hack in a _stop peeking here_
02:35:28 <oklopol> just strip lines that start with #
02:35:42 <elliott> Sgeo: basically you show a few examples of inputs and outputs in the function, give a basic list of operations to hint the impl what it needs to do, and it figures out the rest
02:35:48 <elliott> works surprisingly well with sufficiently disciplined use
02:35:49 <Sgeo> Ah, old as in, "we're not making it right now"
02:36:09 <oklopol> i told we were playing with my clues
02:36:13 <Sgeo> elliott, that sounds awesome
02:36:20 <oklopol> i don't know uni guys that irc
02:36:33 <Sgeo> "A Clue program is a string consisting only of 0s and 1s. "
02:36:39 <Sgeo> Then what are you talking about?
02:36:44 <elliott> oklopol doesn't use the wiki.
02:37:02 <oklopol> made for the purpose of having a language there
02:37:15 <elliott> make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1]
02:37:15 <elliott> . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]}
02:37:15 <elliott> make singleton ~ <id>; cons; #[]
02:37:19 <elliott> . [3], [4, 5] -> [[3], [4, 5]]}
02:37:21 <elliott> pair ~ <id>; make singleton; cons
02:37:23 <elliott> Sgeo: pretty obvious to see how that works
02:37:35 <elliott> the {. ...} are example inputs -> outputs
02:37:41 <oklopol> but, once you start using recursion, things get slightly more hairy.
02:37:54 <elliott> i think it is pretty obviously the best language?
02:38:25 <elliott> Sgeo: example of recursion, very obvious code here:
02:38:25 <Sgeo> Is it implemented?
02:38:26 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
02:38:27 <elliott> ski apply ~ {:. [1, [1, 2]] -> 2
02:38:31 <elliott> ski apply ~ {:. [[2, [1, 3]], 2] -> 3
02:38:35 <elliott> ski apply ~ {:. [[[3, [2, 2]], [2, 1]], 5] -> [2, 1]
02:38:51 <elliott> ski apply ~ {:. [[[[1, 2], 1], 2], 1] -> 1
02:38:57 <elliott> :. [[[[[3, 2], 3], 2], 3], 1] -> 3
02:38:58 <Sgeo> I'm too tired and stressed to think about all that
02:38:59 <elliott> : [[[[3, 2], 3], 2], 3] -> [2, 3]
02:39:05 <elliott> ski apply ~ pair; car; cdr; cadaar; cadar
02:39:07 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, it is implemented
02:39:11 <elliott> obviously figuring out that ski apply just takes like a second
02:39:13 <elliott> the examples illuminate it all
02:39:15 <elliott> and the hints only make it obvious
02:39:36 <oklopol> btw, if you could write all that as actual ski code, it might make *even more* sense, if possible
02:39:44 * Sgeo is too tired to try to understand anything
02:39:57 <elliott> Traceback (most recent call last):
02:40:00 <elliott> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
02:40:04 <Sgeo> es I did just say that
02:40:04 <elliott> oklopol: i don't think it likes negatives
02:40:18 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to explode in a Trogdor
02:40:35 <Sgeo> I wa recently linked to H*R somehwere, btpobably TVTropes
02:40:48 <oklopol> you can add new commands if you like
02:40:58 <oklopol> i just added what i absolutely needed for ski, and a few other completely random ones
02:41:01 <Sgeo> What are the Clue primitives?
02:41:06 <oklopol> comparison would be very nice
02:41:13 <oklopol> Sgeo: there are very few, but you can do stuff with lists and numbers
02:41:37 <elliott> nonexistence of a compare function
02:41:53 <elliott> oklopol, adding features before he even realised
02:42:10 <oklopol> what, compare is there? :D
02:42:19 * Sgeo compares oklopol
02:42:25 <hagb4rd> have you written a doc or sth oklopol?
02:42:43 <oklopol> hagb4rd: you're not a regular are ya? :P
02:43:00 <elliott> while i<len(code) and (code[i]=='-' or code[i].isdigit()):
02:43:08 <elliott> oklopol: i like how you've made sure it can parse such numbers as 3--2-1309324-2-34
02:43:10 <oklopol> there's a reference imp, and there's the ski program
02:43:15 <elliott> oklopol: yet neglected to actually allow initial -
02:43:51 <elliott> oklopol: also syntax errors don't actually stop the program...
02:43:57 <elliott> TypeError: compare() takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given)
02:44:04 <elliott> can this thing actually "do" multi arg conditions
02:44:31 <oklopol> things can take multiple args
02:44:38 <oklopol> ski apply is an example of that
02:44:47 <elliott> oklopol: can you do <foo> where foo takes 2 args
02:44:54 <elliott> and if so, how do you get clue not to die by trying it with one
02:45:05 <oklopol> that i don't know, because compare has probably never been tried :D
02:45:19 <oklopol> conditions are kinda special...
02:45:24 <oklopol> they can not take two args xD
02:45:32 <elliott> oklopol: if i made a wrapper for compare
02:45:35 <elliott> that takes it as a two-arg list
02:45:40 <elliott> oklopol: then would that work?
02:45:42 <oklopol> just have <id> as condition
02:45:46 <elliott> it'd have to call pair in the condition of course
02:45:51 <Sgeo> Take it, take it, take it, I've gont tloco
02:46:10 <Sgeo> Sorry, just in a weird mood
02:46:36 <oklopol> somehow i thought giving the condition func would make things faster or whatever, but it's just fucking stupid
02:46:53 <elliott> oklopol: i dont think that'll actually work
02:46:57 <elliott> it doesn't really call compare at ... all
02:47:07 <elliott> oh lol my test was wrong too
02:47:24 <elliott> oklopol: oh my god, it just figured out what zero is
02:47:35 <elliott> Condition: id(['compare', '#0', ['compare', '#0', '#0']])
02:47:55 <elliott> oklopol: it wanted 0, but despite the fact that it was _given_ 0,
02:48:00 <elliott> oklopol: it compares it to itself to get it
02:48:18 <pikhq> Wild shiny mon found.
02:48:19 <oklopol> i'm laughing so goddamn loudly right now
02:48:37 <cheater00> elliott: have you heard about that embarassing DOS bug in php that they have found monday?
02:48:41 <elliott> oklopol: i think, if you have 0, 1, and compare, and you want 0, choosing compare(x,x) to get it is an inspired solution
02:48:54 <elliott> cheater00: yes, but i'd rather forget php exists. also the bug is rather subtle and not _all_ that stupid
02:49:57 <cheater00> they copypasted code from someone who didn't know wtf they were doing.
02:50:02 <elliott> cheater00: no, they didn't
02:50:15 <elliott> cheater00: it was to do with an edge-case on x87 vs sse
02:50:15 <oklopol> elliott: can i get your negative number parsing code?
02:50:32 <elliott> if code[0].isdigit() or code[0]=='-':
02:50:37 <elliott> that's it, the rest you already wrote :D
02:50:40 <cheater00> they didn't even write an exhaustive unit test for it which would have taken, only once executed, a minuscule amount of time.
02:50:52 <elliott> cheater00: unit tests are stupid.
02:50:57 <elliott> executing them only once is doubly so.
02:51:12 <cheater00> you only need to test code once every time it changes
02:51:14 <elliott> cheater00: enjoy enumerating every floating point value lol
02:51:44 <cheater00> exhaustive doesn't mean every value
02:51:49 <cheater00> exhaustive means every important value
02:52:02 <elliott> ah, so basically what you are saying is: they should have predicted the bug perfectly
02:52:08 <cheater00> since when are you such a php fanboi?
02:52:12 <elliott> i hate php, php devs are idiots, but this bug is subtle and not something i would expect anyone to catch.
02:52:18 <elliott> every decision they make is idiotic.
02:52:32 <elliott> but it's like saying, oh, "john mccain raped me and my sister for five days on end and that's why he's terrible"
02:52:37 <elliott> no, that's stupid, he's terrible for entirely other reasons?
02:52:54 <elliott> oklopol: okay so i am going to see if it can NEGATE
02:53:00 <cheater00> a little enjoyment hasn't hurt anyone so far
02:54:07 <elliott> oklopol: so to subtract i use the add function despite the fact thaty ou have decrement :D
02:54:14 <elliott> because there's no subtract functin
02:54:34 <hagb4rd> what bout addin neg numbers
02:54:45 <elliott> oklopol: lol... you can't actually do negate i don't think
02:54:55 <elliott> so to do negate with add, you need negate
02:55:07 <elliott> oklopol: care to try and do negate or subtract as a recursive fn? :D
02:55:32 <oklopol> well you could start incing and deccing in both sides of a pair
02:55:52 <oklopol> well something like that, i mean there's a workaround
02:56:09 <elliott> this platonic core will be perfect forever
02:56:18 <elliott> oklopol: you write the subtract or negate function (negate is more useful for me fwiw)
02:56:20 <Vorpal> elliott, want to get stats on block count so far in building that castle with hmod + worldedit + craftbook?
02:56:25 <elliott> oklopol: wait, why don't we just use lists of []
02:56:28 <elliott> oklopol: to denote naturals
02:56:31 <Vorpal> elliott, even though it is just a shell it is rather massive
02:57:39 <Vorpal> elliott, 596516 stone (note, area uneven, might include 5-10 deep into ground). 62806 obsidian. 968 lightstone. 829 torch.
02:57:47 <Vorpal> plus a number of other ones
02:57:58 <Vorpal> elliott, no, more like half a day of work
02:58:08 <Vorpal> elliott, also some cool redstone stuff :P
02:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that took time
02:58:23 <Vorpal> elliott, like the automated arrow shooting battery
02:58:31 <elliott> oklopol: so is negate done yet
02:58:37 <hagb4rd> anyway whats the clue of clue, but making comments useless :p
02:58:44 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6778978682.txt
02:59:01 <Vorpal> elliott, flip a lever, watch it shoot. Then watch notch poor code for arrows over network lag the thing to hell
02:59:17 <elliott> oklopol: excuse me, i meant in clue
03:00:04 <elliott> oklopol: i just don't see how you can write negate in clue at all :D
03:00:30 <oklopol> so whether it's negative or positive, you'll find it if you go both directions
03:00:44 <oklopol> that's just comparison with 0
03:00:57 <oklopol> if you know it's negative, then just inc until 0, and inc twice on other track
03:01:11 <oklopol> you'll end up with (0, abs(n))
03:01:21 <elliott> oklopol: no don't do abs, i'm trying to do abs USING negate :D
03:02:01 <oklopol> but anyway the algo i gave is just for negate
03:02:13 <oklopol> and it requires a bit of list fiddling, but shouldn't be too hard
03:02:28 <elliott> oklopol: ok then ... teach me how to recurse :D
03:03:20 <oklopol> if you have like (three points) a -> b (two points) c -> d
03:03:39 <oklopol> then, a is transformed into c, and a and d are transformed into b
03:03:46 <elliott> i need to brb for ooone sec
03:05:05 <oklopol> okay, well that's recursion
03:05:27 <elliott> a and d transformed into b ... what
03:06:02 <elliott> oklopol: so basically, "given f(c) = d, f(a) = b, where c comes from a and b uses a and d"?
03:06:40 <elliott> oklopol: is that ":D how does anyone else but me understand this" :P
03:07:17 <oklopol> well. kind of, i wasn't actually surprised, more like yay ehird so smart i don't have to explain eeeeverything.
03:07:39 <elliott> oklopol: i feel vaguely insulted :D
03:07:50 <oklopol> that's really all there is to recursion, and it is one of the things i like best about clue
03:07:54 <elliott> oklopol: ok so base cases are done with onedots
03:07:58 <elliott> oklopol: and then i have separate blocks with recursion
03:08:09 <elliott> so (0,x) -> x and (x,0) -> x
03:08:10 <oklopol> btw remember it's just the amt of blocks, you can say ... as well
03:08:18 <elliott> yeah? for this abs subfunction thing
03:08:45 <elliott> oklopol: i bet you were real proud of that
03:09:31 <elliott> oklopol: are five dots like
03:09:44 <elliott> what about six dots, are six dots the one-sentence summary of how the code works
03:10:11 <oklopol> maybe five could actually be comments
03:10:32 <elliott> oklopol: do the order of ~{} blocks matter?
03:10:55 <oklopol> now that i've given this thing some thought
03:11:00 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure they don't really
03:11:06 <oklopol> but, i'd but the default case last
03:11:34 <hagb4rd> what if there is no default case?
03:12:12 <elliott> don't specify it, one would assume
03:12:18 <oklopol> i think there will always be one
03:12:27 <elliott> oklopol: okay so wait what tuple do abs(-5) and abs(5) start out with?
03:12:43 <oklopol> which is actually bad for further inference, you should definitely be able to make things fail
03:13:00 <oklopol> well i'd do negate separately
03:13:16 <elliott> oklopol: okay what tuple do negate(-5) and negate(5) start with :D
03:13:36 <oklopol> i'd write those separately too
03:13:53 <oklopol> negate negative starts with (-5, -5)
03:13:54 <Sgeo> Console Hacking 2010 Part 2 - Chaos Communication Congress
03:13:59 <elliott> oklopol: what about negate positive
03:14:00 <oklopol> and the rules is to (inc, inc inc)
03:14:02 <Sgeo> Is this stuff that will be educational to me?
03:14:06 <Sgeo> I seem to be learning
03:14:28 <oklopol> Sgeo: clue is VERY educational, yes
03:14:31 <elliott> oklopol: okay wait negative negative,
03:14:43 <Sgeo> oklopol, I'm talking about a talk
03:14:46 <Sgeo> About PS3 security
03:14:51 <elliott> oklopol: do we keep going?
03:15:23 <oklopol> i'm sure you'll be able to translate that to clue
03:15:34 <elliott> oklopol: hey i don't even need recursion do i
03:15:48 <oklopol> you just need it for the loop
03:16:22 <oklopol> except you could also just write a program that adds the number to itself, twice
03:16:34 <elliott> oklopol: can clue do that?
03:16:46 <oklopol> what it can't do is negate
03:16:54 <elliott> oklopol: right, negate negative is easy
03:16:56 <elliott> oklopol: negate positive won't be
03:17:20 <oklopol> no negate negative won't be easy!
03:17:36 <oklopol> the idea doesn't work, because you'd need to negate so you could negate
03:17:47 <oklopol> you need to add the negation twice!
03:18:11 <elliott> okay so let's see, i'll write this in a language this is actually easy and obvious in and then translate
03:18:46 <elliott> f (x,y) = x where x = f (a, b); a = x+1; b = y+2
03:18:59 <Sgeo> When it says geohot glitched .. something with the RAM, not entirely sure, do they mean physically?
03:19:09 <elliott> negate negative ~ {:. a, b -> c
03:19:16 <elliott> oklopol: i just need to fill in this template a few times, right?
03:19:38 <Sgeo> "It required really annoying hardware to pull off"
03:20:02 <oklopol> and don't forget base case ofc
03:20:28 <elliott> negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5
03:20:37 <elliott> oklopol: is that... correct?
03:20:46 <oklopol> sure, although you don't need that much
03:21:04 <oklopol> everything after -4 -3 is excess
03:21:11 <oklopol> the -5 -5 case is not using all that
03:21:31 <elliott> do i need more than one example?
03:21:40 <oklopol> point is to allow it to just brute force one layer instead of always going to base case
03:21:51 <elliott> oklopol: btw i disagree with how you indent these things, IMO the : for subcase should be aligned with the . for supercase
03:21:56 <elliott> then the two x -> ys get aligned
03:22:01 <oklopol> one may do, one may not, i don't really have an intuition for that atm
03:22:44 <elliott> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
03:23:25 <elliott> turns out negative negative != negate negative
03:23:52 <elliott> Subast(0,1):['inc', ['inc', '#0']]
03:24:00 <elliott> oklopol: holy shit, it actually works.
03:24:26 <elliott> oklopol: and negate positive is just the same except it's x, 0 and we do dec/dec dec, right?
03:24:35 <oklopol> i believe this to be the case.
03:24:37 <hagb4rd> always wondered y -1*1 makes -1.. thats kind of evil
03:24:44 <oerjan> yo dawg, i heard you like negation
03:25:56 <oerjan> hagb4rd: both (-1)*1 and -(1*1) are -1, of course, even if for slightly different reasons
03:26:17 <oerjan> or rather both follow from x*1 = x actually
03:26:54 <elliott> hagb4rd: do you accept that this is true no matter what x is?
03:26:56 <oerjan> hagb4rd: yes, x*1 = x is one of the field axioms
03:27:22 <elliott> hagb4rd: let us suppose that x = -1. so we have x*1 = x. expanding x's value, we have (-1)*1 = (-1).
03:27:34 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:27:36 <oklopol> elliott: you needed just one recursion case?
03:27:44 <elliott> oklopol: yup, guess clue is magical
03:27:47 <elliott> oklopol: also negate positive works
03:27:53 <oerjan> it is also true that (-a)*b = -(a*b) for all a and b
03:27:56 <elliott> negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5
03:27:56 <elliott> negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1
03:28:02 <elliott> negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc
03:28:04 <elliott> oklopol: guess i am a better clue programmer than you?
03:28:49 <hagb4rd> you could have -a*b = b .. isnt it a question of notation?
03:28:50 <elliott> clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (negate)
03:28:51 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1551824545.txt
03:29:04 <elliott> hagb4rd: so negative one times two apples is two apples?
03:29:14 <elliott> hagb4rd: also, you can have 2*2 = 72.
03:29:17 <oerjan> hagb4rd: um -a*b usually parses as -(a*b)
03:29:20 <elliott> the fact is that * is an operation defined by certain facts about it.
03:29:21 <oklopol> so maybe that's the reason you only needed one
03:29:34 <oerjan> i think some programming languages violate that, though
03:30:06 <elliott> oklopol: oh i think i might actually need a non-inner loop version...
03:30:18 <elliott> or maybe i just need to give it id
03:30:21 <oklopol> you just check if it's pos or neg and negate
03:30:27 <hagb4rd> thats the direction i wanted to get it goin
03:30:42 <elliott> negate ~ <is negative?>; negate negative; negate positive; id
03:30:44 <elliott> oklopol: goes all depth limit,
03:30:46 <elliott> oklopol: because negate X takes two arguments
03:30:48 <elliott> I want it to give them both as the same
03:30:50 <elliott> but i don't know if it's smart enough to
03:30:51 <oerjan> hagb4rd: but it is still true that both the obvious parsing candidates give the same final value
03:31:21 <oklopol> it should certainly be smart enough for that :\
03:31:38 <oerjan> also -a*b = b holds for a = -1 or b = 0
03:31:51 <oklopol> i mean it can deduce things like cadar
03:32:37 <elliott> is negative? ~ {. 0 -> 0 }
03:32:43 <elliott> is negative? ~ <id>; compare; #0; #1
03:32:45 <elliott> i think it might infer wrong ...
03:32:50 <elliott> Condition: id(['compare', '#0', ['compare', '#0', '#0']])
03:33:03 <elliott> that seems very suspicious to me
03:33:58 <oklopol> is #0 the zeroth arg or is it a zero
03:34:26 <elliott> i think it' the zeroth arg
03:34:27 <elliott> but that makes like ... no sense
03:35:19 <elliott> oklopol: just tested in console
03:35:36 <elliott> >>> _['negate negative'](-5,-5)
03:36:06 <elliott> >>> _['negate positive'](5,5)
03:36:14 <elliott> oklopol: you're lying to me about how these constructs work ... or something
03:38:03 <elliott> i mean the _actual test case_ is failing
03:38:14 <elliott> maybe <is zero?> is fucking it up somehow...naw
03:39:07 <hagb4rd> <elliott>the fact is that * is an operation defined by certain facts about it. <-- so multiplication of a negative and a positive value results in a negative value,yes..it may be a metaphysical question, but i wonder if it's based on a natural law or just another entropy
03:39:20 <elliott> oerjan: do you have the swatter?
03:39:27 <elliott> oerjan: it is _really_ desperately needed.
03:40:00 <elliott> oklopol: ok mine can't even figure out a one-arg negate negative :D
03:40:22 <elliott> oklopol: i think our implementations are subtly different now :/
03:40:49 <oklopol> i'll finish mine, and try to come up with why you can't
03:41:52 <elliott> oklopol: gimme your current src tree and i'll diff it against mine
03:45:39 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2332981772.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1364929955.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9712658752.txt
03:46:33 <elliott> oklopol: okay, you have negate built in obvs
03:47:14 <elliott> oklopol: the only cluedifferences we have are that i fixed the exception messages differently
03:47:29 <elliott> cluetest mine is just a bit more featured
03:47:34 <elliott> print funcs["is negative?"](-7) # --> 3
03:48:24 <oklopol> hey i can't get this little pecker to compile
03:49:18 <elliott> clue is still the stupid one
03:49:52 <oklopol> something wrong with parsing maybe, because negate negative works, but negate positive doesn't, even though i just changed signs
03:50:51 <hagb4rd> oerjan.. hmm.. okay.. so if -ab is kind of a short to notation to -1*a*b*.. there is no need to think in cases of negative or positive, right?.. makes sence
03:50:56 <elliott> oklopol: since the recursion is different
03:51:55 <oklopol> and it's parsing that fails
03:52:00 <elliott> i'm just fixin' my negate negative
03:52:10 <oklopol> as can easily be seen from the error message...........
03:52:17 <oklopol> Traceback (most recent call last):
03:52:17 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff}clue\cluetest.py", line 10, in <module>
03:52:17 <oklopol> funcs,asts=clue.compile_all(open(cluefile).read(),stuff.funcs)
03:52:17 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff}clue\clue.py", line 618, in compile_all
03:52:17 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff}clue\clue.py", line 596, in parse
03:52:17 <oklopol> clues[i]=stuff_to_clue(tokenized[i])
03:52:18 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff}clue\clue.py", line 589, in stuff_to_clue
03:52:19 <oklopol> cond,others=separate_cond(helpers)
03:52:19 <oklopol> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
03:52:24 <oklopol> what kind of piece of shit wrote this thing
03:52:31 <oklopol> I WANT FUCKING ERROR MESSAGES
03:52:48 <elliott> oklopol: ahh ,yes, i remember that error
03:52:51 <elliott> oklopol: show me your code?
03:52:58 <elliott> oklopol: i think you forgot to specify clues
03:53:00 <elliott> you got a name wrong somewhere
03:53:47 <elliott> clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (really negate positive)
03:54:29 <elliott> >>> _['negate positive'](5,5)
03:54:32 <elliott> >>> _['negate positive'](5,5)
03:54:48 <oklopol> i noticed when i checked my names
03:56:21 <elliott> and your impl was all like
03:57:52 <elliott> Condition: is negative?('#0')
03:57:53 <elliott> ['negate negative', '#0', '#0']
03:57:57 <elliott> ['negate positive', '#0', '#0']
03:58:01 <oklopol> it's not the most user friendly thing
03:58:43 <elliott> Condition: is negative?('#0')
03:59:44 <oklopol> in my defense, i was just gonna do negate negative, not all of negate
03:59:54 <oklopol> elliott: well i finished before you, so prolly not
04:00:02 <elliott> oklopol: did you get abs before me
04:00:17 <elliott> oklopol: i will just have to figure out subtraction
04:00:31 <hagb4rd> the second mouse gets the cheese
04:00:42 <oklopol> yeah i couldn't have seen how that's done
04:00:56 <oklopol> it's like you... meh i'm not even gonna try
04:01:38 <oklopol> well, that's pretty simple..... except you need to do positives and negatives separately again :D
04:01:39 <elliott> subtract ~ <_>; add; negate
04:01:47 <elliott> ['add', '#0', ['negate', '#1']]
04:01:49 <oklopol> i'm a serious fucking retard
04:02:11 <elliott> oklopol: http://sprunge.us/DFfN
04:02:16 <elliott> oklopol: to be honest add shouldn't exist.
04:02:34 <elliott> oklopol: in fact, nothing should exist except pairs and one non-pair object
04:02:44 <elliott> oklopol: no multiple arguments, that's done with pairs
04:03:03 <oklopol> you do realize *ski* takes 20 seconds to compile, and functions are executed about a million times when you compile somethin
04:03:06 <elliott> oklopol: indeed, in a sufficiently advanced implementation, functions would be represented as lists in this kind
04:03:19 <elliott> oklopol: yeah so since it's useless, let's make it good and useless
04:03:54 <oklopol> btw i was close to adding higher order functions to the impl, not really any more work, but would be fucking awesome
04:04:05 <oklopol> i mean just think about the clue definition of map
04:04:25 <elliott> oklopol: see, like i said, do functions as lists
04:04:32 <elliott> oklopol: then you already have it all :D
04:04:36 <elliott> just have an apply function
04:04:40 <elliott> taking an object and an objects
04:04:45 <elliott> object = pair object object | nil
04:04:58 <elliott> and "foo" in examples is just a reference to that object ofc
04:05:21 <oklopol> because it's pretty much perfect now
04:05:30 <oklopol> it just needs MORE stuff, and a better conditional
04:05:42 <elliott> oklopol: this would be more stuff
04:05:45 <oerjan> hagb4rd: the rule -(a*b) = (-a)*b holds for more than just ordinary numbers, it holds for any ring including those where you cannot distinguish positive and negative elements.
04:07:27 <oerjan> > all [ -(a*b) == (-a)*b | a <- [0 .. 255::Word8], b <- [0 .. 255::Word8]]
04:07:28 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> GHC.Bool.Bool'
04:07:43 <oerjan> > and [ -(a*b) == (-a)*b | a <- [0 .. 255::Word8], b <- [0 .. 255::Word8]]
04:07:54 <elliott> oklopol: but you have no expression syntax :D
04:07:58 <elliott> so how ya gonna test things
04:08:05 <oerjan> hagb4rd: Word8 being one such ring, arithmetic mod 256
04:08:25 <oklopol> elliott: i'm not proud of this but... clue was supposed to have main
04:08:35 <zzo38> Do you think there should be any BytePusher related stuff in the esoteric programming files archive?
04:09:31 <elliott> oklopol: all you have to do is write another parser then
04:09:33 <oklopol> that's a bit... impure, really i'd prefer that you can't actually run the programs!
04:09:35 <elliott> oklopol: or reuse the existing one
04:10:00 <oklopol> you just give the bot definitions
04:10:07 <oklopol> and then you can give it mains which are expressions
04:10:08 <elliott> will the parser parse that?
04:10:17 <oklopol> right you would need to parse...
04:10:31 <elliott> oklopol: basically, what can the parser parse that's nested reasonably :D
04:10:56 <oklopol> clue doesn't have logical nesting
04:11:16 <elliott> oklopol: ok if you just extend the parser a tiny bit
04:11:24 <elliott> every expression is parsed as
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04:11:30 <oklopol> and by logical i meant control
04:11:58 <elliott> :. func, 1, x, 2 -> result; func2, 34 -> x
04:12:10 <elliott> :. func, 1, x, 2 -> result : func2, 34 -> x
04:12:39 <oklopol> yeah you could have something like that in a bot
04:12:50 <elliott> oklopol: i mean all you have to do is keep strings you can't parse
04:12:58 <elliott> oklopol: i mean you don't need to write a parser
04:13:04 <elliott> this gives you expressions for FREE
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04:13:53 <oklopol> or you could just have somekinda ugly sexp syntax
04:14:07 <oklopol> is that not what you're talking about
04:14:21 <elliott> oklopol: but this way you get to reuse almost the existing parser
04:14:26 <elliott> so it's SO MUCH MORE CONVENIENT?
04:15:17 <oklopol> heeeey i could implement quicksort!
04:15:25 <oklopol> i wonder when i implemented that last
04:15:46 <elliott> oklopol: is that even possible in clue
04:16:02 <oklopol> it's a pretty high-level language
04:18:20 <oklopol> hmm, why can functions only return one value
04:18:29 <elliott> oklopol: workin on the bot
04:18:47 <oklopol> yeah i sort of came up with that
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04:20:24 <elliott> oklopol: take a look at my amazing ast representation
04:20:28 <elliott> [is zero?('#0')] <>(0) =>{0,0}:['inc', '#0'] ; {0,1}:['inc', ['inc', '#1']] ; ;; <= '#2' ;; !.(1) => '#1' ;;
04:20:48 <elliott> hahahaha wow that is the worst ever :D
04:23:28 <elliott> [is negative?('#0')] .(1) => ['negate negative', '#0', '#0'] | .(0) => ['negate positive', '#0', '#0']
04:23:31 <elliott> oklopol: it's getting better!
04:24:53 <elliott> oklopol: what _is_ the "main ast" anyway, for a recursion
04:25:28 <oklopol> i think it's default branch, but... umm....
04:25:50 <oklopol> i guess it's the part that calculates actual result
04:26:07 <oklopol> then there's special asts that calculate subinputs from input
04:26:38 <oklopol> also, i can't get pivot to compile, and i'm not sure it's a coding error...... :D
04:28:11 <elliott> |^(0) => '#2' <= {(0,0): ['dec', '#0']; (0,1): ['dec', ['dec', '#1']]; }
04:28:16 <elliott> oklopol: this is actually a nicer syntax in general xD
04:29:15 <oklopol> actually it was a coding error, and it compiles in a microsecond
04:30:27 <oklopol> that was just a quick thingie so i could see what was going on, i think
04:30:48 <oklopol> or maybe i did give it some thought, don't really remember, if i did, it was bad touhght.
04:31:14 <elliott> this is actually starting to make sense :D
04:31:26 <elliott> oklopol: do Clues know what their constants are?
04:35:06 <elliott> |.(_) => add(#0, negate(#1))
04:35:12 <elliott> |.(1) => {negate negative}(#0, #0)
04:35:14 <elliott> |.(0) => {negate positive}(#0, #0)
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04:35:58 <elliott> |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): dec(#0); (0,1): dec(dec(#1))}
04:36:03 <elliott> i can even understand that if i try hard enough :D
04:36:22 <elliott> oklopol: so um constants are _not_in the bag
04:37:28 <oklopol> somehow i think i should optimize this thing, i've been compiling pivot for a couple minutes now
04:38:03 <oklopol> it's incredibly hard to rip a list open, since from the program's standpoint that's not in anyway more sensible than adding stuff to it.
04:38:27 <oklopol> i'm going to make it more sensible, but because i need to do it in a pure an extensible way, that's easier said than done
04:38:58 <elliott> oklopol: could i actually rewrite these constanty things to their val... nah
04:40:32 <elliott> [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): dec(#0); (0,1): dec(dec(#1))} |.(1) => #1
04:40:36 <elliott> [id(#0)] <= [0, 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0
04:40:39 <elliott> think that's about as nice as these are gonna get
04:42:54 <elliott> oklopol: wanna write a parser for this
04:43:49 <elliott> oklopol: expr := '#' nat | int | (string_without_spaces | '{' string '}') '(' args ')'
04:43:55 <elliott> where args is comma-separated expr
04:43:58 <Sgeo> Where is the lid?
04:43:59 <elliott> oklopol: c'mon, it'll be fuuun :D
04:44:01 <Sgeo> Oh where is the lid?
04:44:09 <Sgeo> Where is the, where is the, where is the liiiid?
04:44:49 <elliott> oklopol: ok i'll write the parser, but you have to tell me how lovely i am for four days after that
04:46:05 <oklopol> Sgeo: liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
04:48:28 <oklopol> no but seriously i need to optimize this thing, it's kinda ridiculously slow atm :D
04:48:50 <elliott> oklopol: i just realised that your language is so awesome that you don't even need {}
04:49:25 <elliott> [is negative?(#0)] |.(1) => negate negative(#0, #0) |.(0) => negate positive(#0, #0)
04:53:46 <elliott> >>> park('is zero?(#0) this is a comment')[0]
04:53:46 <elliott> ('a', 'is zero?', [('v', 0)])
04:53:54 <elliott> oklopol: note my cunning disregard for trailing text providing useful comment functionality
04:54:09 <elliott> hm wait don't actually need #n here
04:54:31 <oklopol> i managed to compile a tiny helper function for pivot
04:54:45 <elliott> oklopol: should i require commas between arguments
04:55:11 <oklopol> i should probably remove some commas from clue
04:57:20 <elliott> [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))] <= [0 1] |.(-1) => #1 |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0
04:58:16 <oklopol> why does it consistently add that extra computation, i will never understand
04:58:37 <Sgeo> elliott, you didn't punch me. Why didn't you punch me?
04:59:22 <oklopol> i need to reimplement this fucker in a faster language, with a less brute force algo
04:59:54 <elliott> oklopol: ok quick does clue support adding things to a funcs dict
05:00:27 <oklopol> can you get cons to caaar 0, [[1], [2], [3]] -> [[1], [2], [0, 3]] to compile?
05:00:55 <oklopol> the funcs dict is a python dictionary....
05:01:09 <elliott> can i add its compilation to func
05:01:10 <oklopol> cons to caaar ~ {. 0, [[1], [2], [3]] -> [[1], [2], [0, 3]] }
05:01:15 <elliott> assuming it uses the stuff always in funcs
05:01:22 <oklopol> if you can compile that, you're my hero
05:01:28 <elliott> oklopol: well my impl is the same as yours, or do you want me to fiddle with hints
05:01:35 <elliott> if so, i will, just as soon as i get cluebot working, which will be soon
05:01:45 <oklopol> you have an impl for that?
05:02:09 <oklopol> but yeah i do want you to fiddle with hints
05:02:32 <oklopol> i always meant for it to be really hard to get things to compile, but i just plain can't come up with a way to do that :D
05:02:42 <oklopol> well, maybe some reeeeeeeally roundabout way
05:03:13 <oklopol> i mean you can write sequential code if you like ofc
05:03:20 <elliott> oklopol: oh fucking god, compile_all is a bitch
05:03:33 <elliott> oklopol: isn't there something to like...fuck
05:03:52 <elliott> oklopol: compile_all... can you use it on a predone funcs?
05:04:25 <oklopol> i think you can separate parsing if you like
05:04:32 <oklopol> but i don't know what you're supposed to call then
05:05:45 <elliott> asts.update(clue.compile_all(coeducational, funcs)[1])
05:05:48 <elliott> thought koed was too cliche
05:06:41 <oklopol> okay, now it compiles in 4 seconds
05:07:33 <oklopol> i used to use koed because it's nice to write
05:07:40 <oklopol> koedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoedkoed
05:08:15 <elliott> >>> cabinetoflaughter('is negative?(-1)')
05:08:18 <elliott> evaluation function: not so good
05:08:58 <zzo38> Do you know the Unolympics?
05:10:34 * Sgeo wonders what Inventables stuff are good to just have fun with
05:11:44 <elliott> oklopol: cluebot nick is taken :D
05:12:06 <elliott> oklopol: cluebot -> cluebat -> luser attitude readjustment clue
05:12:54 <zzo38> oklopol: That's OK, I don't know either.
05:13:21 <oklopol> zzo38: what do you know then?
05:13:46 <elliott> oklopol: larc is registered :D
05:14:02 <elliott> LUser ATtitude REadjustment clue
05:16:02 <elliott> oklopol: so I'm thinking, for luatre commands,
05:16:04 <zzo38> oklopol: It is just idea... make Unolympics with difference from Olympics, with events such as: * Circular reasoning * Judge bribing * Flagpole sitting * Beer drinking contest * Watch TV all channels at once by changing the channels really fast * You are allowed to use any drugs you want in order to win
05:16:12 <elliott> oklopol: three dots evaluates, four dots defines
05:16:14 <elliott> oklopol: five dots looks up
05:17:32 <zzo38> six dots is just for testing
05:17:40 <zzo38> seven dots means you win immediately
05:17:52 <oerjan> elliott: um it's lart not larc
05:17:58 <elliott> oerjan: luser attitude readjustment clue
05:18:06 <elliott> cluebot -> cluebat -> luser attitude readjustment clue
05:18:11 <oklopol> ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH FUCKING CLUE IMPLEMENTATION
05:18:16 <oerjan> but lart is already the same as a cluebat
05:18:18 <oklopol> who the fuck as written this piece of shit
05:18:31 <oklopol> i'm gonna kill that little homo
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05:21:37 <elliott> zzo38: luatre will not respond
05:22:06 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that.
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05:22:49 <oklopol> yeah umm okay the pivot function may not be implementable :D
05:22:56 <oklopol> i mean, in any sensible way at least
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05:23:49 <oklopol> it doesn't really have to do all that much...
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05:25:50 <luatre> maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp :(
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05:26:59 <luatre> <type 'exceptions.TypeError'>: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects :(
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05:28:35 <oerjan> wtf http://i.imgur.com/vymTu.jpg
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05:31:10 <luatre> exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp :(
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05:32:28 <oklopol> as far as pieces of shit go, this program is one; i don't mind the lack of error messages really, but fucking hell i can't anything compiled :D
05:32:33 <luatre> exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :(
05:32:51 <oklopol> i think i compiled stuff more complicated than pivot at some point
05:32:56 <luatre> exceptions.RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :(
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05:34:31 <elliott> :: is zero? ~ {.0->1} is zero? ~{.1->0 .2->0} is zero? ~ <id>; #0; #1
05:34:32 <luatre> is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0
05:34:41 <oklopol> i'm going to compile pivot overnight and see if something happens
05:34:51 <luatre> is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0
05:34:54 <luatre> exceptions.KeyError: 'cons' :(
05:34:58 <luatre> is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0
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05:35:47 <elliott> oklopol: did i mention that my expression syntax is awesome
05:35:55 <elliott> oklopol: it's literally just
05:35:58 <oklopol> [id(#0)] <= [0 1] <<< this is like what args it gets or?
05:36:09 <elliott> oklopol: feed it something recursive
05:36:28 <elliott> expr := int | '[' expr* ']' | name '(' expr* ')' <----- the entire expression syntax
05:36:30 <oklopol> that's rather verbose, but k
05:36:33 <elliott> with whitespace being irrelevant except to separate
05:36:44 <elliott> oklopol: what is, recursive stuff?
05:36:48 <elliott> or the way to show constants
05:37:40 <oklopol> erm so i don't really see how that syntax works if i'm supposed to use that for def as well
05:37:51 <elliott> oklopol: just remove all newlines
05:37:51 <oklopol> or do i just write normal code
05:38:05 <elliott> oklopol: threedots = expression
05:38:14 <elliott> oklopol: fivedots = look up the ast of this function i give
05:38:22 <elliott> oklopol: guess how many lines cluebot.py is, note that my replacement for get_ast is in there (not in clue.py), also the parser and evaluator for my expression language, and all the irc code :|
05:41:20 <oklopol> .:. parity helper ~ { . 0, 0 -> 0 . 0, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ { :. 5, 1 -> 0 : 4, 0 -> 0 :. 3, 0 -> 1 : 2, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ <id>; compare; #0; #1; sub
05:41:20 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile parity helper(sub) :(
05:42:07 <elliott> oklopol: i can add it if you want me to cheat
05:42:38 <elliott> :: sub ~ {.1,3->-2 .2,1->1 .-3,-2 -> -1} sub ~ <_>; add; negate
05:42:39 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile sub(negate) :(
05:43:25 <elliott> :: is negative?~{.-1->1 .-2->1} is negative?~{.0->0} is negative?~{.1 -> 0 .2 ->0} is negative? ~ <id>; compare; #0; #1
05:43:26 <luatre> is negative?: [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))] <= [0 1] |.(-1) => #1 |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0
05:43:47 <oklopol> can't you just add it as a primitive :D
05:43:56 <elliott> : negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc
05:44:01 <elliott> :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc
05:44:01 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile negate negative(is zero?) :(
05:44:20 <elliott> :: is zero? ~ {.0->1} is zero?~{.1 ->0 .2->0} is zero?~<id>; #0; #1
05:44:21 <luatre> is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0
05:44:23 <elliott> :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc
05:44:24 <luatre> negate negative: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1
05:44:52 <elliott> :: negate positive ~ {:. 5, 5 -> -5 : 4, 3 -> -5 :. 4, 3 -> -5 : 3, 1 -> -5 :. 3, 1 -> -5 : 2, -1 -> -5 } negate positive ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate positive ~ <is zero?>; dec
05:44:52 <luatre> negate positive: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): dec(#0); (0,1): dec(dec(#1))} |.(1) => #1
05:45:04 <elliott> i like how the ast dumps are nicer than the actual code
05:45:19 <elliott> :: negate ~ {. -1 -> 1 . -2 -> 2 . -3 -> 3 }negate ~ {. 0 -> 0 . 1 -> -1 . 2 -> -2 }negate ~ <is negative?>; negate positive; negate negative
05:45:20 <luatre> negate: [is negative?(#0)] |.(1) => negate negative(#0 #0) |.(0) => negate positive(#0 #0)
05:45:26 <elliott> :: sub ~ {.1,3->-2 .2,1->1 .-3,-2 -> -1} sub ~ <_>; add; negate
05:45:27 <luatre> sub: [_(#0)] |.(_) => add(#0 negate(#1))
05:45:31 <oklopol> they are not nearly as nice
05:45:43 <oklopol> .:. parity helper ~ { . 0, 0 -> 0 . 0, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ { :. 5, 1 -> 0 : 4, 0 -> 0 :. 3, 0 -> 1 : 2, 1 -> 1 } parity helper ~ <id>; compare; #0; #1; sub
05:45:44 <luatre> parity helper: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #3 |^(_) => #4 <= {(0,0): sub(#2 #1); (0,1): compare(#1 #3)}
05:46:53 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
05:47:08 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
05:47:29 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :(
05:47:43 <elliott> what's parity helper(-2 1) meant to be
05:48:49 <oklopol> :: parity ~ {. 3 -> 1 . 2 -> 0 . 1 -> 1 } parity ~ <_>; #0; parity helper
05:48:50 <luatre> parity: [_(#0)] <= [0] |.(_) => parity helper(#1 #0)
05:48:58 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
05:49:20 <oklopol> dunno about that, but i love clue again
05:49:30 <oklopol> maybe i could just hack up some crappy special casing for lists
05:49:43 <oklopol> because those are impossible to brute force together
05:50:09 <oklopol> whereas in numerical algos, i always completely underestimate the speed
05:50:34 <oklopol> like, when that parity helper compiled, i assumed it was an error message because it was so fast, never seen anything happen that fast with lists
05:53:12 <elliott> oklopol: i should sleep now
05:53:18 <elliott> you can have cluebot.py tomorrow or something
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05:54:07 <oklopol> clue cluecleucluceluceluceluceluceluclueclueclue
05:54:21 <oklopol> tomorrow's retro language: toi
05:55:27 <hagb4rd> have you been here before oklopol?
05:55:50 * Sgeo blinks at hagb4rd
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05:57:25 <oklopol> been ircing kinda lazily lately
05:57:38 <oklopol> since i have irl stuff i should be doing
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05:59:07 <oklopol> i just realized graphica has kind of a similar syntax as clue
05:59:38 <oklopol> or maybe ef, although i have no idea how that thing works.......
06:01:58 <oklopol> well it's a verrry old language
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06:13:19 <hagb4rd> i really like this chan..must admit i haven't found anything comparable on the whole wide irc net
06:14:40 <Sgeo> Oh, didn't mean to accidentally offend you
06:14:47 <Sgeo> It's just that oklopol has been here for a long time
06:14:57 * Sgeo continues to fail to eat
06:15:27 <Sgeo> Glad to.. see that
06:17:13 * oerjan hits Sgeo with the saucepan ===\__/
06:19:04 <oklopol> hagb4rd: when did you come?
06:19:23 <oklopol> that was a very rare moment of sanity you saw there, i arranged it just for you
06:19:36 <oklopol> we were talking about porn when you entered
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06:20:19 <hagb4rd> and i still dont understand anything
06:20:38 <hagb4rd> but, thats kind of good news
06:21:06 <oklopol> have you seen any of my definition listings
06:21:07 <hagb4rd> looking for teachers and friends ya know
06:21:21 <oklopol> i sometimes just define random math concepts
06:22:13 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: If you logread, I think I accidentally left Station V3 [and sister comics on occasion] off the list
06:25:19 <oklopol> mainly to know whether i've been doing that lately
06:29:40 <hagb4rd> thats far behind my person insight so far..but it wouldnt surprise me at all
06:31:54 <hagb4rd> damn, my corroded-schoolenglish must be insulting, so please excuse.. im tryin to fix this
06:38:12 <hagb4rd> and oerjan is send by the goodlord himself.. the good soul ..a real philanthrope :D
06:39:07 <hagb4rd> please just shut up and don't refuse ;)
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06:53:08 <Sgeo> I'm about to start falling asleep on people
06:54:28 <oerjan> that may not be advisable
06:56:59 <hagb4rd> have you considered taking a vacation sgeo?
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07:03:05 <hagb4rd> or feed some animals in the zoo
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09:39:56 <impomatic> Does anyone know when BF Joust and FYB were added to EgoBot?
09:49:50 <oerjan> For BF Joust, i think it was approximately the same time as it was added to the wiki
09:50:17 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BF_Joust&diff=14558&oldid=14535
09:52:20 <oerjan> for fukyorbrane, i have a vague idea that it was in the previous version of EgoBot as well. the wiki article is from before i joined here.
09:55:32 <oerjan> of course Gregor is the appropriate person to ask
09:57:43 <Gregor> FYB was in EgoBot as long as both existed, more or less, but that was in the pregobot.
09:58:05 <Gregor> It's been in this EgoBot for considerably less time, the hg log is sure to elucidate: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
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09:59:35 <Gregor> 20 months for FYB, 19 months for BFJoust.
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10:33:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, somehow I read that as "pogobot" first. (as in pogo-stick)
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11:24:24 <impomatic> Gregor: 19 months is for the new version of BFJoust. Can you remember when it supported the original?
11:24:58 <Gregor> This was the only version it ever supported.
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11:26:11 <impomatic> Firefox always crashes when I click a link in ChatZilla :-(
11:28:07 <Gregor> <impomatic> Gregor: 19 months is for the new version of BFJoust. Can you remember when it supported the original?
11:28:07 <Gregor> <Gregor> This was the only version it ever supported.
11:28:26 <impomatic> Gregor: sorry, I was thinking of the hill that used to be at http://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/bf/ :-)
11:28:47 <Gregor> Besides, my BFJoust hill is more fair :P
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12:17:40 * Phantom_Hoover boggles at the stupidity of Windows anti-virus software.
12:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not unknown for Norton to identify itself as a virus, and both McAfee and AVG have deleted essential Windows files which they thought were viruses.
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12:50:56 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: got any screenshots of Mt. Hoover?
12:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> That's from a while ago; I've put a better lighting system in since and removed that small amount of dirt to the back of the room.
12:56:34 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, did you read logs?
12:56:39 <Sgeo> [Nothing important]
12:57:07 <j-invariant> I love how this game is like lemmings: Stuff does not just fall down
12:57:19 <Sgeo> Sand and gravel does!
12:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> (The better lighting system in question is a layer of glass with lava on top.
12:57:36 <Sgeo> And water and lava... are water and lava
12:57:39 <Vorpal> j-invariant, sand and gravel falls though
12:58:20 <Sgeo> Which is more worthless? Gravel or gold?
12:58:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo, probably gravel, unless you are draining. At least gold can be used for watches and you can also built nice looking thrones out of gold blocks
12:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, gravel is the only source of flint, which is very useful.
12:59:24 <Vorpal> huh, seems like it snows, rains and hails at the same time.
12:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Gold can be used for nothing but watches and decoration.
12:59:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm true
13:11:17 <Sgeo> And golden apples!
13:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Golden apples are good for bragging rights; that's it.
13:13:52 <Sgeo> That sounds almost like a quote from the wiki
13:18:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, found it as a golden apple in a dungeon
13:18:23 <Vorpal> never found even a normal apple in any local game or on SMP
13:18:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no I mentioned it once. That was all
13:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> You've probably secreted it in one of your super-secret underground bunkers in the wilderness.
13:19:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nah, it is pretty useless really. Who would want it?
13:20:51 <Sgeo> If golden apples didn't require as much gold to make, would they be worth it?
13:22:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I never found a normal apple yet and iirc they don't stack anyway
13:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, no, because you can just go out and punch some pigs if you need gold.
13:26:28 <Sgeo> Are pigs a renewable resource?
13:26:54 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwo8qxUit00
13:27:05 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: what do you do all night>?
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13:27:40 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, no, because you can just go out and punch some pigs if you need gold. <-- ??
13:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, unless you're on the move, setting up a mine would be worthwhile.
13:29:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and they don't stack either. I suggest carrying a work bench and a stack of wheat when exploring. Maybe one or two ready breads in case you need them urgently
13:31:10 <Vorpal> j-invariant, if you aren't in a hurry to smelt and/or craft stuff, then deferring it to the night might relieve some boredom (and also let you get more stuff that needs daylight done during the day)
13:31:34 <j-invariant> oh I don't have any thing to smelt but I guess that's my problem
13:31:49 <j-invariant> I keep finding it before I learned how to make chests
13:31:51 <Vorpal> j-invariant, are you mining for it?
13:32:15 <Vorpal> j-invariant, why not go back to the coal you found back then?
13:32:41 <Vorpal> j-invariant, right then you used it I guess?
13:33:53 <Vorpal> j-invariant, well you are likely to find more underground than when wandering the surface. As long as you have some torches (if you don't and can't find any surface coal you might be in a bit of a deadlock) it should be reasonably safe to mine
13:34:08 <Vorpal> get some iron too, and make armour
13:34:56 <Vorpal> j-invariant, well try mining in the open. As in, dig down so you have sky visible at all times, rather than digging tunnels.
13:35:31 <Vorpal> j-invariant, a lot more work though
13:35:42 <Vorpal> but you will probably find coal soon enough
13:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, if you have monsters on securing the thing will be a pain.
13:36:21 <Vorpal> j-invariant, do this at close to sea level btw, not at a mountain top. Reason for this is that you won't find iron above a certain altitude
13:37:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean for the open thing. Well as soon as you find enough coal to make a handful of torches you can switch to a different mining system
13:37:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, however, it seems a decent way to break the deadlock :P
13:38:28 <Vorpal> hm to have one chest for every block id define you would need 173 chests (twice if you want double chests of course)
13:38:38 <Vorpal> however, not all are possible to get
13:39:22 <Vorpal> (such as fire, redstone ore, redstone-placed-on-ground, or similar)
13:40:08 <Sgeo> <3 Fry & Laurie
13:40:16 <Sgeo> And elliott will kill me for liking something good
14:05:04 <j-invariant> I loaded up the game in the spawnpoint instead of my treehouse :(
14:05:48 <Vorpal> j-invariant, did you die?
14:10:24 <Sgeo> How do you avoid getting bored when hauled up in a 2x2x2 house at night?
14:11:04 <Sgeo> Wait, if I'm on Peaceful, I don't need to bother with that, do I?
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14:21:29 <j-invariant> I wonder how many bug reports he gets a day...
14:21:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, while trying to keep the house small so mobs don't spawn?
14:21:56 <Sgeo> [Note: I have hard times finding coal in a rush]
14:22:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Pass, then: I've never stuck at it in a world where I didn't get coal quickly.
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14:40:35 <Vorpal> hah, the fastest way to load all of minecraft world data into memory for map generation when it isn't cached into ram seems to be to prefetch it using find whatever/ -type f | xargs -P 4 -n 100 head -c1 > /dev/null. The files are small enough that this seems to load the entire files. And the parallel processes make it faster somehow (about 3.5 times as fast) . Could be NQC maybe, since I doubt a single
14:40:35 <Vorpal> head process would try to read one file while waiting for the previous one.
14:57:47 <j-invariant> I love teh way you make symbols in minecraft
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16:20:41 <elliott> 21:55:27 <hagb4rd> have you been here before oklopol?
16:20:44 <elliott> hagb4rd: no, he's very new
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16:22:33 <j-invariant> a whole bunch of creepers blew up in my face and killed me
16:22:48 <j-invariant> but I went back to the spot to get my pick and they had revealed some coal
16:23:34 <elliott> 03:28:47 <Gregor> Besides, my BFJoust hill is more fair :P
16:23:38 <elliott> Gregor: They're MYYY rules!
16:23:48 <elliott> j-invariant: they destroy like 70% of blocks though
16:24:03 <elliott> j-invariant: p.s. you know you can fight from behind a door?
16:24:16 <elliott> if you place a door from the outside of your house, not the inside, then you can walk right up to it and hit things from there
16:24:23 <elliott> with a creeper you just keep whacking it with a sword until it goes away
16:26:14 <elliott> j-invariant: btw as far as finding coal goes
16:26:23 <elliott> j-invariant: you probably *really* want a mine of some kind
16:26:52 <elliott> j-invariant: the simplest kind is: just dig a shaft (doesn't matter how wide), diagonally, to bedrock (watch out for lava lakes near the bottom; you could stop there if you're lazy)
16:27:01 <elliott> j-invariant: then, you build 1-wide shafts off to the sides
16:27:07 <elliott> j-invariant: and then 1-wide shafts on both sides of *that*
16:27:11 <elliott> separated by, iirc, three blocks
16:27:27 <elliott> separated by one block I think
16:27:32 <elliott> j-invariant: and basically you just dig along _those_ shafts, and whenever you find ore, you dig out that area
16:27:34 <elliott> watch out for caverns though
16:27:41 <elliott> j-invariant: you get much more ore like 10 above bedrock
16:27:46 <elliott> j-invariant: this method of mining is a bit tedious though
16:27:53 <elliott> j-invariant: another way to do it is just spelunking
16:28:00 <elliott> j-invariant: find caves, light them all up, get all their ore
16:28:16 <elliott> j-invariant: in fact, you can even use a staircase mine to find caverns... they often appear underneath the shafts, and you fall down :>
16:30:08 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Mining_Techniques
16:30:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> separated by one block I think <-- err, 2 blocks seem saner
16:30:31 <Vorpal> more if you do a zip like layout
16:30:45 <Vorpal> where you alternate two alts, this stacks well
16:31:06 <elliott> Vorpal: no, that's overcomplicated
16:31:18 <elliott> j-invariant: the staircase mine method I mentioned, if done correctly, can have you see every block in the entire area
16:31:39 <Vorpal> elliott, not if you want to cover a specific altitude. sorry bbl
16:31:50 <elliott> sure, you do see everything
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16:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes but if you want to cover a narrow altitude range but one that is larger than 2 blocks high you have to dig away more blocks with your 2 wide separation scheme
16:38:40 <elliott> irrelevant, you still see it all
16:38:40 <Vorpal> elliott, also, do you shift the layers relative each other, or how do you take care of the non-visible corners?
16:38:52 <elliott> yes, each layer gets shifted right by one (IIRC)
16:39:39 <Vorpal> elliott, hm you need a separation of one for that to work
16:39:40 <elliott> i have this feeling that normal mining isn't too practical in general though
16:41:26 <Vorpal> elliott, actually the high density scheme works fairly well. Also it turns out that if you have a large area at your disposal, a less dense mining scheme which might miss some ores will yield more per dug away block. Due to that ores often comes in clumps.
16:41:57 <elliott> my staircase mining method is just as high density, but easier to keep track of :)
16:42:24 <elliott> I think spelunking is easiest
16:42:29 <elliott> caverns have shitloads of ore
16:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway this is why shifting by one won't work with separation of two: http://sprunge.us/TIUA
16:43:53 <elliott> right, so separate by two like i said
16:44:01 <Vorpal> elliott, err by one you mean
16:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, the problem is finding good caverns. Some games you find lots in that go deep. Sometimes you hardly find any that goes deep enough to need torching
16:45:35 <elliott> and sometimes your mountain has little ore
16:49:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I have some single player games with awesome cavern systems though :)
16:50:08 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, my basic mining scheme is this: http://sprunge.us/gMZH While it is indeed more complicated and requires some care to get it right, it is faster due to mining far fewer blocks per blocks seen.
16:50:24 <Vorpal> of course, spelunking is probably the nicest way, at least on peaceful
16:50:44 <Vorpal> (not so good if the cavern is overrun with monsters)
16:52:56 <Vorpal> elliott, there was a quite interesting thread on the minecraft forums analysing this. I don't seem to be able to find it again though
16:54:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Someone needs to figure out the big-O of these mining schemes!
16:54:13 <elliott> So that the forum can say "lol 0x=0 u stupid"
16:54:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I think that mining scheme is implementable in a staircase mine.
16:54:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, I don't see any problem combining them
16:54:42 <elliott> Staircase mines with a drop shaft to the bottom are p. much the best!
16:55:22 <elliott> I think I might start playing MC in a new way: on peaceful until I get an iron sword and armour, and then on hard.
16:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything comes in clumps, so you can leave a line unchecked and not miss anything.
16:55:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, I wouldn't use it except for the diamond ore altitude range. Because other ores tend to have large deposits so in practise you don't need to see every block to find a deposit. And the few 1x1 coal deposits out there aren't really worth the extra diggign
16:56:00 <olsner> hmm, so it's a ratio blocks seen/blocks mined that you want to maximize? (and the limit of that as you mine to infinity, of course)
16:56:12 <Vorpal> gah, don't say what I intend to say while I'm writing it. ;P
16:56:21 <j-invariant> minecraft is so addictive some people actually DO mine to infinity
16:56:44 <Vorpal> j-invariant, can't in this case since it is a side view. And that has a limited range
16:57:20 <olsner> at some point you'll want to factor in whatever random algorithm is used to place valuables in the ground
16:57:43 <j-invariant> I have this huge tunnel to a good place from the spawnpoint//
16:57:47 <elliott> Sgeo: stop making DCSS fanboi comments that i have to reply to
16:57:49 <Vorpal> olsner, yes quite. we did that :P
16:58:00 <Vorpal> olsner, when we noted the thing about those clumps
16:58:51 <elliott> i live on as little ore as possible due to laziness but let's pretend it's just my style
16:59:01 <elliott> if i need it i'll go get it!
16:59:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/eydlc/as_a_gamer_without_a_steady_internet_connection/c1bwz27
16:59:36 <olsner> elliott: hmm, doesn't that actually *make* it your style to use as little ore as possible?
16:59:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Worse — he's replying to threads about NetHack on reddit with random factoids about how Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is so great.
17:00:00 <elliott> Which is just irritating, because (1) that's irrelevant and (2) it's a terrible game.
17:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah personally I do it like mplayer buffers (or at least how you claimed it appears to be buffering)
17:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I thought yu were talking about the decryptomatic thing.
17:00:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's DeCSS :P
17:00:32 <elliott> mining is pretty much the most boring thing ever, so yeah i don't really do that
17:00:38 <elliott> spelunking can be fun once in a while
17:02:28 <olsner> it's slightly sad that this channel is now all about minecraft
17:02:47 <elliott> oklopol's random walk method is great, I just found the Stairs accidentally
17:02:55 <olsner> unless you're using minecraft for computation, because then it's suddenly on topic
17:03:03 <elliott> olsner: we did interesting stuff yesterday! esolang i mean
17:03:03 <Vorpal> olsner, there is that red stone CPU in it
17:03:18 <elliott> and yes, we d id interesting mc computation stuff yesterday
17:03:24 <elliott> me and Phantom_Hoover invented THE BEST CIRCUIT SYSTEM EVER
17:03:41 <Vorpal> elliott, how is redstone shit as such?
17:03:51 <olsner> oh, not *the* shit, but shit?
17:04:01 <elliott> we redesigned it ... and half the game, but
17:04:04 <elliott> Vorpal: it can hardly interact with the environment
17:04:08 <elliott> Vorpal: it has infinite power which is just no fun
17:04:15 <elliott> and every circuit is gigantic
17:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well true. There are mods for interacting with environment though.
17:04:27 <Vorpal> and yes circuits are large
17:04:59 <elliott> I am sad that civilisation gets little love now ... anyway
17:05:09 <elliott> olsner: we'd talk about interesting stuff if someone said anything, but nobody does :)
17:05:13 <Vorpal> elliott, one think I would like is a lever that affects a wire to blocks below. So you can place a lever on ground and hide the wires
17:05:48 <olsner> elliott: I know, sans the minecraft spam it'd just be completely quiet in here, and that could be more boring
17:05:52 <elliott> Vorpal: easy, since you can cover bluestone'd blocks with other blocks
17:05:58 <elliott> so just have a wire going underground and cover it with blocks :)
17:06:16 <elliott> olsner: it's not like we used to be more on topic before, it was just more varied offtopic
17:06:24 <Vorpal> elliott, sure you can use a 3 thick wall currently but that is not always a viable option. Such when I wanted a fire level on top of the wall of that fort.
17:06:47 <olsner> elliott: yah, probably
17:08:03 * Vorpal waits for on topicness
17:08:16 -!- luatre has joined.
17:08:27 <luatre> TypeError: can only concatenate list (not "int") to list :(
17:08:43 <Vorpal> elliott, which language?
17:08:54 <elliott> Vorpal: well, Clue plus my expression language
17:09:05 <elliott> Vorpal: the actual interesting parts are done with :: (or any combination of : and . resulting in 4 dots)
17:09:18 <elliott> five dots looks up the compiled form of a given function
17:09:24 <Vorpal> elliott, an esolang? It looks rather too sane for that
17:09:33 <elliott> that's just the expression language...
17:09:39 <elliott> this is oklopol's language :)
17:09:48 <Vorpal> okay likely extremely weird then
17:09:50 <elliott> make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1]
17:09:50 <elliott> . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]}
17:09:50 <elliott> make singleton ~ <id>; cons; #[]
17:09:53 <elliott> ^ that's a function in clue
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17:10:13 <elliott> basically, clue is programmed by giving a bunch of examples, and then telling it what functions it needs to use
17:10:16 <elliott> and it solves all the rest by itself
17:10:18 <elliott> Vorpal: um a list containing just x
17:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, oh so why the name singleton then
17:10:33 <elliott> Vorpal: because the list is a singleton
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17:11:03 <elliott> more than 3 ~ <id>; #0; #1
17:11:17 <Vorpal> elliott, so.. how does it do this? Nearest example?
17:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, how does it extrapolate from the examples
17:11:45 <elliott> Vorpal: something almost, but not entirely, like brute force
17:11:50 <elliott> it compiles the ski impl in 20 seconds
17:11:59 <elliott> tehre's special syntax for doing recursion
17:12:03 <elliott> j-invariant: basically, <id> means "branch using id"
17:12:09 <Vorpal> elliott, okay. But that doesn't answer my question on how.
17:12:15 <elliott> j-invariant: so, the first branches are the branches for 0, 1, 2, 3, because it infers the branch as id(param)
17:12:19 <elliott> j-invariant: the last branch is default
17:12:24 <elliott> and so contains everything above 3
17:12:29 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you define something like sin() in it?
17:12:36 <elliott> Vorpal: you don't, it just has integers and lists
17:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well lets say integer fixed point sin then :)
17:13:24 <elliott> i'll show you the compiles form of make singleton
17:13:45 <elliott> :: make singleton ~ {. 1 -> [1] . [1, 2, 3] -> [[1, 2, 3]]} make singleton ~ <id>; cons; #[]
17:13:46 <luatre> make singleton: [id(#0)] <= [[]] |.(_) => cons(#1 #0)
17:14:02 <elliott> ok, so that <= [foo] means that it gets [] as the first parameter, because we told it it was a constant it needed
17:14:13 <elliott> so in the function body, #0 is []
17:14:20 <elliott> but in the condition, #0 is the parameter
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17:14:27 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Well what I'm trying to figure out is how it extrapolates. One obvious approach would be to use the examples to train an ANN for example. Another would be to compute a hyper-plane that separates the examples properly (this couldn't handle sin, or xor for example)
17:14:31 <j-invariant> elliott: I hope you're saving up all these discusfsions, where you show people how Clue works: And saving them into "clue.clue"
17:14:31 <elliott> so basically, we switch on the argument, but only have a default (this is the same as having no branch)
17:14:38 <elliott> then it just conses the param with the constant param ([])
17:14:44 <elliott> j-invariant: clog is doing that for me!
17:14:55 <elliott> Vorpal: ANN? no, no, this is precise
17:15:04 <elliott> Vorpal: the SKI implementation is a _real_ SKI implementation
17:15:08 <elliott> that can handle any SKI form
17:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, so hm, what does it do when there could be several different alternatives that would fit the given examples?
17:15:55 <elliott> Vorpal: then your program is bad... but that's why you use hints
17:16:11 <Vorpal> elliott, will it error out or?
17:16:20 <elliott> i managed to implement subtraction and abs, fwiw, when all there was was add, and no negate
17:16:26 <elliott> thanks to help from oklopol
17:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal: no, if it manages to generate a function using the functions in the bag you specified, using the conditional function you specified, meeting your recursion scheme (if you have one), and fitting all the examples in their corresponding branches
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17:17:06 <elliott> Vorpal: then it'll use that function, but ... if you write it properly there's only one function it can really generate
17:17:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that more than 3, does it handle -1?
17:17:15 <elliott> that's the importance of the bag
17:17:27 <elliott> i think it'll say that -1 is more than three
17:17:42 <elliott> because anything that isn't 0, 1, 2, or 3 gets true, basically
17:17:44 <elliott> but you could easily fix it
17:17:54 <elliott> by having another case ... or even just a wrapper function
17:17:56 <elliott> that checks for negativity
17:18:01 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably you could make it extrapolate in both directions?
17:18:13 <elliott> it doesn't "extrapolate"...
17:18:17 <elliott> it is not guessing, it is very precise
17:18:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well, okay, bad word
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17:18:46 <elliott> Vorpal: basically, no, because you'd still need to switch on whether it's negative
17:18:51 <elliott> :: more than 3 ~ {. 0 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 1 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 2 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 3 -> 0 } more than 3 ~ {. 4 -> 1 . 5 -> 1 } more than 3 ~ <id>; #0; #1
17:18:51 <luatre> more than 3: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0 |.(2) => #0 |.(3) => #0 |.(_) => #1
17:19:04 <elliott> right, i can see straight away that that will think -1 is more than three
17:19:20 <elliott> (if you can't, maybe you're not good enough at understanding my compiled syntax form)
17:20:47 <elliott> Vorpal: here's an implementation of negate, subtract, and abs http://sprunge.us/gOPE
17:20:54 <elliott> the :. : bit is the recursion schemes
17:21:20 <elliott> :: is negative? ~ {. -1 -> 1 . -2 -> 1 } is negative? ~ {. 0 -> 0 } is negative? ~ {. 1 -> 0 . 2 -> 0 } is negative? ~ <id>; compare; #0; #1
17:21:20 <luatre> is negative?: [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))] <= [0 1] |.(-1) => #1 |.(0) => #0 |.(1) => #0
17:21:31 <elliott> that compare(#0 #0) is quite amusing, it's 0 obviously
17:21:40 <elliott> but the brancher can't access the constants
17:21:43 <elliott> since it doesn't get them yet
17:21:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't use the examples in a very clever way it seems
17:21:47 <elliott> so it couldn't just use teh constant 0 it's given
17:21:50 <elliott> it figured out what 0 is :)
17:22:08 <elliott> you generally don't need many of them at all
17:22:19 <elliott> there's more in my negating functions because i made a mistake earlier
17:22:42 <elliott> Vorpal: take a look at this
17:23:04 <elliott> :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc
17:23:04 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile negate negative(is zero?) :(
17:23:19 <elliott> :: is zero? ~ {. 0 -> 1 } is zero? ~ {. 1 -> 0 . 2 -> 0 } is zero? ~ <id>; #0; #1
17:23:19 <luatre> is zero?: [id(#0)] <= [0 1] |.(0) => #1 |.(_) => #0
17:23:25 <elliott> :: negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5 : -4, -3 -> 5 :. -4, -3 -> 5 : -3, -1 -> 5 :. -3, -1 -> 5 : -2, 1 -> 5 } negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 . 0, 2 -> 2 . 0, 3 -> 3 } negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc
17:23:25 <luatre> negate negative: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1
17:23:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well hard to explain what i mean
17:23:33 <elliott> Vorpal: see negate negative in that sprunge up there
17:23:37 <elliott> 17:22 luatre: negate negative: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1
17:23:43 <elliott> based on the recursion scheme and base case
17:23:48 <elliott> which is pretty good, if you ask me
17:23:55 <elliott> to translate that inferred function to haskell:
17:24:22 <elliott> negneg x y | not (isZero x) = negneg (x+1) (y+1+1)
17:25:14 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway it is the best and most expressive language ever :D
17:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure. But it takes rather a lot of code to do it
17:25:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes, sure it is nice.
17:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Not because of the anachronism, but because I thought that violated the BBC's anti-product-placement rules.
17:25:43 <elliott> i'll write negate negative shorter
17:25:59 <elliott> Vorpal: i added the extra test cases because i was paranoid when it broke once
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17:26:54 <elliott> :: negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {:. -5,-5 -> 5 : -4,-3 -> 5 :. -4,-3 -> 5 : -3,-1 -> 5 } negative negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {. 0,1 -> 1} negative negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ <is zero?>; inc
17:26:54 <luatre> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable :(
17:27:02 <elliott> :: negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {:. -5,-5 -> 5 : -4,-3 -> 5 :. -4,-3 -> 5 : -3,-1 -> 5 } negative negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {. 0,1 -> 1} negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ <is zero?>; inc
17:27:03 <luatre> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable :(
17:27:12 <elliott> :: negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {:. -5,-5 -> 5 : -4,-3 -> 5 :. -4,-3 -> 5 : -3,-1 -> 5 } negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ {. 0,1 -> 1} negate negative 2 electric boogaloo ~ <is zero?>; inc
17:27:13 <luatre> negate negative 2 electric boogaloo: [is zero?(#0)] |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))} |.(1) => #1
17:27:22 <elliott> Vorpal: in long form, that code is just:
17:27:24 <elliott> negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5
17:27:28 <elliott> negate negative ~ {. 0, 1 -> 1 }
17:27:30 <elliott> negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc
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17:28:05 <Vorpal> <elliott> negate negative ~ <is zero?>; inc <-- inc?
17:28:22 <elliott> but what's more, i can prove it
17:28:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but why does it need to increment?
17:28:36 <elliott> Vorpal: um because the algorithm works by doing f (x+1) (y+2)
17:28:52 <elliott> :: succ ~ {. 0 -> 1 . 1 -> 2 . 2 -> 3} succ ~ <_>; inc
17:28:54 <luatre> succ: [_(#0)] |.(_) => inc(#0)
17:29:27 <j-invariant> and if you gave negate negative ~ <sqrt square>; it would fin dhe other program?
17:29:38 <elliott> j-invariant: what do you mean?
17:29:38 <j-invariant> sqrt(x^2) instead of if x<0 then -x else x
17:29:53 <elliott> j-invariant: well you would do <_>; sqrt square
17:29:54 <j-invariant> although sqrt may be difficult to implement
17:29:56 <elliott> j-invariant: but yes, it would probably get that
17:30:04 <elliott> oh you mean sqrt being separate
17:30:07 <elliott> j-invariant: well you would do <_>; sqrt; square
17:30:11 <elliott> it would probably get it, yes
17:30:14 <elliott> but doing sqrt would be a bitch
17:30:29 <elliott> Vorpal: here's the ski impl: http://sprunge.us/gdNj
17:30:37 <elliott> *impl: http://sprunge.us/gdNj
17:30:49 <elliott> Vorpal: would be much more readable if s, k and i could be something other than constant integers, but
17:31:01 <elliott> j-invariant: not really :) ... you could probably do newton's method?
17:31:29 <elliott> Vorpal: it's actually a wonderful program
17:31:38 <elliott> also note that :s after the first in a :. are ignored
17:31:49 <elliott> well... or i think they are tested
17:31:49 <Vorpal> elliott, just write a soft floating point library in it. In theory it is possible since it is TC. But likely infeasible.
17:31:53 <elliott> but they aren't used for generating the recursion scheme
17:32:00 <Vorpal> elliott, how long did ski take to compile?
17:32:18 <elliott> Vorpal: note that the implementation has many, many really stupid things
17:32:36 <elliott> if str(e)[-12:]=="not callable":
17:32:48 <elliott> and it also calls functions during compilation like 138917491238912379x more than itn eeds to
17:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott, how does that differ from normal python?
17:33:20 <elliott> # glue is just a helper for glue_
17:33:20 <elliott> # we add recipes to objects
17:33:20 <elliott> def glue(functions,applier,applicabler,objects,condition):
17:33:24 <elliott> for i in xrange(len(objects)):
17:33:26 <elliott> l=(lambda j:lambda app,*args:args[j])(i)
17:33:28 <elliott> objectswithrecipes.append((objects[i],l,"#"+str(i)))
17:33:29 <elliott> return glue_(functions,applier,applicabler,objectswithrecipes,condition,5,objects)
17:33:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but it uses the same interpreter as normal python?
17:33:54 <elliott> this is actaully not the most oklo python i've ever seen, that would be the oklotalk-- impl
17:34:17 <elliott> def funthatreturnsntharg(i):
17:34:17 <elliott> return lambda*args:args[i]
17:34:21 <elliott> that's my favourite name for a function tbh
17:34:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> # glue is just a helper for glue_ <-- that sounds like a weird naming scheme
17:35:09 <j-invariant> always seem to find coal if you just do it for long enough
17:35:20 <elliott> Vorpal: 17.8115589619 seconds
17:35:23 <elliott> to compile everything in that paste i showed
17:35:29 <Vorpal> elliott, on what sort of hardware?
17:35:33 <j-invariant> nice thing about Clue is you don't have to test the program!
17:35:47 <elliott> Vorpal: um 2.1ghz core 2, 4 gigs of ram... i don't think it's ram intensive
17:35:53 <j-invariant> "Tested by construction" as opposed to "Correct by construction" that we do in Epigram
17:36:40 <j-invariant> it's a whole program paradigm based around testing: I can hardly beleive it's not subsumed java/C# etc by now
17:36:43 <elliott> Vorpal: recompiling ski now so i can show the asts in my form
17:36:53 <Vorpal> elliott, knowing python you would probably get a 3x speed improvement if you switched to another language.
17:37:00 <elliott> which is actually less ghetto than oklopol's:
17:37:12 <elliott> Vorpal: you would get a 3x speed improvement just removing all the stupid shit from the impl
17:37:51 <elliott> |^(1) => #1 <= {(0,0): car(cdr(#0))}
17:37:52 <Vorpal> elliott, try it with pypy?
17:37:53 <elliott> |^(2) => #1 <= {(0,0): cadar(#0)}
17:37:55 <elliott> |^(3) => #3 <= {(0,0): pair(cadaar(#0) car(cdr(#0))); (1,0): pair(cadar(#0) car(cdr(#0))); (2,0): pair(#1 #2)}
17:37:57 <elliott> |^(4) => #2 <= {(0,0): car(#0); (1,0): pair(#1 car(cdr(#0)))}
17:38:02 <elliott> some simple memoisation would help.
17:38:10 <elliott> [id(cons(deep first(#0) make singleton(depth of first(#0))))] <= [0 1]
17:38:23 <elliott> |.(_) => deep first with cutoff(#2)
17:38:27 <elliott> it's pretty good at figuring out conditions :)
17:38:39 <elliott> the id(x) thing is just because this version of the lang is stupid
17:38:44 <elliott> the <foo> stuff is... basically totally unnecessary
17:39:02 <Vorpal> elliott, it should be able to automatically strip id() off anything
17:39:11 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it should just not need <foo>
17:39:16 <elliott> the reason it has id there is because oko did
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17:39:25 <elliott> because the normal conditional form can only handle one argument and shit
17:40:24 <elliott> |^(1) => inc(#2) <= {(0,0): car(#1)}
17:40:30 <elliott> |^(1) => #1 <= {(0,0): car(#0)}
17:40:32 <elliott> ---- deep first with cutoff
17:40:34 <elliott> [id(more than 3(depth of first(#0)))] <= [4]
17:40:40 <elliott> ^ that's quite an interesting block of functions.
17:40:49 <elliott> remember that in the body, rather than the brancher/conditional, the args are all N forward
17:40:52 <elliott> where N is the number of constants
17:40:57 <elliott> because the first N are the constants shown :)
17:42:41 <elliott> i should probably explain the ast format
17:43:05 <Vorpal> sure why not, got a bit busy RL now though
17:43:40 <elliott> i'll wait then, gotta have someone hearing my blabbering
17:57:38 <j-invariant> how the thell do I take a screenshot of minecraft/
17:59:30 <elliott> F1 to turn on camera, F2 to screenshot
17:59:34 <elliott> goes in ~/.minecraft/screenshots
18:05:58 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> Which is more worthless? Gravel or gold?" <<< gravel, you can make armor out of gold.
18:06:15 <elliott> oklopol: gold armour lasts like 0 seconds
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18:22:14 <oklopol> "<elliott> also note that :s after the first in a :. are ignored" <<< that's not true!
18:22:36 <elliott> oklopol: they're tested but don't go towards making the recursion scheme
18:22:46 <oklopol> they are when recursion branches multiple times, like you'd expect
18:23:26 <elliott> negate negative ~ {:. -5, -5 -> 5
18:23:34 <elliott> oklopol: so is there a better way to write that
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18:26:58 <elliott> oklopol: do prime factorisation
18:27:10 <elliott> j-invariant: you can do pretty much any recursive algorithm ... as long as each step can also be done ... prolly
18:27:34 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: gold armour lasts like 0 seconds" <<< not really
18:27:49 <elliott> oklopol: don't you have...iron
18:27:55 <oklopol> and chainmail is between gold and iron
18:27:55 <elliott> iron is 100000x superior to gold
18:27:58 <elliott> and lasts like 100000x longer
18:28:06 <elliott> oklopol: chainmail is impossible to get without inventory editing
18:28:35 <oklopol> "<elliott> well...whatever :D" <<< it's just the way you explained it sounded like things like quicksort would indeed not be possible
18:28:57 <oklopol> i thought you thought you can't recurse multiple times, but just tail
18:29:08 <oklopol> hmm except not tail because many examples are non-tail
18:29:24 <oklopol> <elliott> oklopol: so is there a better way to write that <<< one or two examples is enough
18:29:33 <elliott> I just meant would : be useful
18:30:02 <oklopol> "<j-invariant> can you write prime factorization?" <<< i believe it's possible to compile a simple imperative language to this, and prove some sort of bound on compilation speed
18:30:10 <oklopol> erm, referenced bad line maybe
18:30:48 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: don't you have...iron" <<< i have iron, yes. all i'm saying is if sand was much easier to find than gravel, would you say gravel is worthless because it doesn't fall
18:31:04 <oklopol> (because sand is easier to get and falls oh so much nicer)
18:31:21 <oklopol> if you have gold and gravel, and a bunch of creepers coming, gold is better.
18:31:37 <elliott> oklopol: certainly, but if i have iron and all the usual necessities,
18:31:41 <oklopol> and your life is more precious than emptying seas
18:31:44 <elliott> oklopol: then i'd rather have a bunch of gravel than gold ... probably ... maybe not
18:32:55 <oklopol> but it's clear that gold has no actual use, usually
18:33:36 <oklopol> anyway personally i'm more happy finding gold than gravel
18:33:44 <oklopol> and i'm sure i would be even if gold wasn't valuable irl
18:33:59 <oklopol> gold blocks are pretty, and gold is rare, that's enough.
18:34:58 <oklopol> but yeah i'm sure you all wouldn't even mine gold, just like you don't mine anything else you find
18:35:25 <oklopol> cuz you already have a lifetime stock of almost one whole stack of it
18:35:51 <oklopol> so seriously, i slept all day
18:36:04 <oklopol> i went to sleep at sunrise, and it's now been dark for a while
18:36:14 <oklopol> i have an exam on monday :(
18:36:19 <oklopol> i'll probably fail AS USUAL
18:36:30 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/Q0GSe.jpg
18:36:45 <oklopol> after looking at the numbers, i notice chainmail is actually weaker than gold
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18:36:53 <elliott> oklopol: you fail exams? :P
18:37:03 <elliott> also, yeah, chainmail is weak, but ... dude, it stops all your damage
18:37:31 <oklopol> i actually failed an exam once, it was about using windows and unix
18:37:46 <oklopol> you had to get everything right, apparently i fucked something up in the excel part
18:38:01 <oklopol> or was it the unix part, maybe i wasn't able to unzip something
18:38:12 <oklopol> don't remember, i hate computers anyway
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18:38:52 <oklopol> but anyway not being able to solve a problem in the exam is as good as failing, and that i've done a lot
18:39:15 <oklopol> for instance, in a recent exam, there was this problem that i couldn't solve (and later proved impossible)
18:39:36 <oklopol> so everyone got a 100% from the prob
18:40:00 <oklopol> i said a whole bunch of things
18:42:21 <oklopol> so, basically what i could do is, instead of doing brute force search (which already discards multiples), i do a kind of variant of a*, so that if an operation *simplifies* another object, it's applied first
18:42:34 <oklopol> where list simplicity is just its size as a tree
18:42:40 <elliott> oklopol: um are you talking about clue now
18:42:55 <oklopol> this will later be made pure, since this is just a special case of a strategy
18:43:04 <oklopol> but for now, it's let me write things like quicksort
18:43:39 <oklopol> "yeah sure, you may interpret this as clue talk"
18:44:03 <oklopol> but surprisingly, there's also an implicit "yes"
18:46:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm, couldn't means-ends analysis work for clue (if that was it was about)
18:51:59 <elliott> Vorpal: so can i tell you ast yet
18:52:03 <elliott> or are you still real-life-crapping
18:52:31 <elliott> except life is boring so things=crap
18:52:50 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, tell me.
18:52:57 * Vorpal is now known as /dev/null
18:53:16 <elliott> Vorpal: psht fine then i won't
18:53:18 <Vorpal> elliott, or why not tell someone else, sure clue was interesting, the ast not so much
18:53:31 <elliott> Vorpal: the ast is just the shit that shows you waht it actually compiles to
18:53:34 <elliott> which is the only way to understand it
18:53:58 <Vorpal> elliott, so it compiles to ast? (what?)
18:54:06 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, before it compiles to a python function
18:54:21 <elliott> every clue function is of the form
18:55:07 <elliott> \a1 a2 a3 ... -> (\c1 c2 c3 ... a1 a2 a3 ... -> case B of x -> ...; y -> ...; z -> ...; [and optionally] _ -> ...) cv1 cv2 cv3 ... a1 a2 a3 ...
18:55:13 <elliott> c1,c2,c3 are the constants
18:55:17 <elliott> and cv1,2,3 are their values
18:55:23 <Vorpal> elliott, this is pseudo-haskell?
18:55:24 <elliott> B is the branching expression
18:55:38 <elliott> so, here, in this ghetto ast form, [x] in the top line is the branching expression (B)
18:55:51 <elliott> there are two constants; c1's value is 0, and c2's value is 1
18:55:57 <elliott> and these get passed as the first two arguments to the function itself
18:56:03 <elliott> whereas the branching expression just sees the actual arguments
18:56:05 <oklopol> the problem with inference atm, is that you have things that build bigger things in your bag, now say you want to find a certain thing inside a list, should be easy because even though you need a depth 3 expression for that, there's only a finite amount of sublists, so just look at them all; unfortunately, by simply using cons, at level 3, you'll be looking at millions and millions of lists
18:56:11 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't indent the ast to make it easier to follow?
18:56:17 <elliott> so, this switches on id(first arg), i.e. the first arg
18:56:27 <elliott> 0 to [first arg], same with 1 2 3; anything else to [second arg]
18:56:32 <elliott> in this case, the first arg is 0, and the second 1
18:56:34 <elliott> those are the two constants
18:56:41 <elliott> you can see this because after the branching expression it has "<= [0 1]"
18:56:43 <elliott> which is the list of constants
18:56:49 <oklopol> so really i could probably make it faster by *adding every sublist* in the set of objects currently usable in expressions
18:56:53 <elliott> functions all follow this form
18:57:30 <elliott> Vorpal: oh and function arguments are just written adjacent
18:57:32 <elliott> Vorpal: so, now, considering some recursion
18:57:40 <elliott> |^(0) => #2 <= {(0,0): inc(#0); (0,1): inc(inc(#1))}
18:57:44 <elliott> booleans are just done as integers here
18:57:49 <elliott> ^ means it's a recursive branch
18:57:53 <elliott> there are no constants here
18:58:02 <elliott> but we can see, if the parameter is zero, we just return the second parameter
18:58:06 <elliott> because #n is the nth parameter
18:58:12 <elliott> if it's not, we get recursion
18:58:22 <elliott> so, there's 1 recursion here
18:58:28 <elliott> so the first element of the recursion pairs is always 0
18:58:39 <Vorpal> elliott, this isn't the AST. This is a human representation of the AST. Or if it is the AST, why the hell are you working on it in a textual form in the program ;)
18:58:40 <elliott> (consider fib, which would have two, and so would have first-elements of 1)
18:58:47 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, it's the representation of the ast
18:58:51 <elliott> which is important for figuring out what the function does
18:59:06 <elliott> Vorpal: ok, so that list basically says: the first recursion has first parameter inc(#0) and second parameter inc(inc(#1))
18:59:12 <elliott> which is first param + 1, and second param + 2, respectively
18:59:15 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't looking at the compiled result work? Or is that unreadable?
18:59:33 <elliott> the result of this recursion is treated as an extra parameter to the function
18:59:43 <elliott> and in this case, we just return the subrecursion with no processing -- i.e. it's tail recursive
18:59:49 <Vorpal> elliott, so if ^ is recursive then . is a base case?
18:59:51 <elliott> Vorpal: this IS the compiled result
19:00:03 <oklopol> Vorpal: the ast is hard to follow because instead of writing it in sexp-like form, you name subtrees, and just say (cons #4 #6) where #4 and #6 are the fourth and sixth expressions defined
19:00:04 <elliott> Vorpal: the compiled-compiled result is just a python function which processes the ast list when called
19:00:06 <j-invariant> elliott: I can't deal with Haskell - Ishould program in Scheme
19:00:30 <elliott> j-invariant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php#Implementation proof that scheme is best language
19:00:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why not compile it to haskell or something
19:00:43 <elliott> Vorpal: um because the impl is written in python
19:00:58 <elliott> Vorpal: also because the language isn't lazy/
19:01:04 <elliott> that's a kinda stupid question.
19:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, but the actual interpretation doesn't look complicated?
19:01:17 -!- augur has changed nick to fum.
19:01:20 <elliott> yes, that's why most of the code is the other parts.
19:01:30 <elliott> oklopol: i think i'm going to change the ghetto_ast to show recursion normally
19:01:36 <elliott> as in, as actual applications
19:01:38 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I thought it was. Well compiling to scheme then?
19:01:53 <elliott> Vorpal: that would require a python implementation _and_ a scheme implementation and vastly complicate everything
19:02:14 -!- fum has changed nick to augur.
19:02:17 <Vorpal> elliott, we could move away from python. This alone would speed it up
19:02:25 <oklopol> elliott: do you drop the main branch? i can't see it in "is zero?"
19:02:29 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah cuz scheme is sooooooooooooo fast
19:02:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well there is one compiler
19:02:42 <elliott> oklopol: the main branch being what in particular?
19:02:46 <Vorpal> elliott, forgot the name of it
19:02:50 <oklopol> tbh that was the first nontrivial one i actually gave some thought to, apart from "mm correct general feel"
19:02:58 <elliott> Vorpal: restricted subset of r4rs. also, oklo python is beautiful
19:03:11 <elliott> oklopol: what was the fisrt nontrivial one you actually gave some thought to
19:03:17 <oklopol> "is zero?" is, i just realized
19:03:19 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it that makes it oklo?
19:03:25 <oklopol> "is zero?", and not "negate negative"
19:03:28 <Vorpal> elliott, the weird thing with exception handling?
19:03:39 <elliott> oklopol: the main branch is between => and <=
19:03:45 <oklopol> i assumed it was negate negative, because of the incing twice
19:03:48 <elliott> oklopol: but i'm going to make it so that negate negative looks like this:
19:04:08 <elliott> |^(0) => recurse(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1)))
19:04:17 <elliott> except i'll give recurse a name
19:04:23 <elliott> oklopol: should the recursion function be @ or $
19:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well I don't know what in the code is oklo. Just saying oklo makes it oklo is a tautology..
19:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, okay. But does it differ in coding style or something from normal python?
19:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, or is it just defined by author being oklopol?
19:05:47 <elliott> oklopol: link me to your scheme interp again
19:06:16 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: i think i'm going to change the ghetto_ast to show recursion normally" <<< should be done, yes, just a tiny amt of work so i skipped it
19:06:21 <Vorpal> elliott, so just wondering if you can give me some representative example showing what makes it oklo :)
19:06:40 <elliott> oklopol: limme scheme terp vjn prove Vorpal oklopy langue
19:07:13 <oklopol> elliott: so was that thing actually the is zero function or is it a part of negate negative
19:07:14 <Vorpal> elliott, your keyboard seems to have broken
19:07:26 <oklopol> it's negate negative clearly, that's why i'm asking
19:07:53 <oklopol> Vorpal: i usually have a rather unique way of writing in a language
19:08:07 <elliott> oklopol: it was zero yeah now link me to scheme terp
19:08:10 <oklopol> usually it's in the canonical ugly code direction
19:08:14 <elliott> ill make Vorpal rue day he evr asked
19:08:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, yes I understood that. But I was basically wondering unique in what way. :)
19:08:24 <elliott> oklopol: technically i'd prefer to show him the oklotalk-- impl but that's somewhere in space
19:08:25 <oklopol> elliott: scheme interp in what language?
19:08:31 <elliott> Vorpal: your smiling is creepy
19:09:05 <Vorpal> elliott, ooh, like a creeper?
19:09:43 <oklopol> elliott: that can not be the is zero function!
19:10:03 <oklopol> <elliott> |^(0) => recurse(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1)))
19:10:17 <oklopol> main branch is not in there
19:10:24 <elliott> oklopol: the main branch is just #2
19:10:33 <elliott> oklopol: the point is that i'm going to inline all the recursions
19:10:44 <elliott> unless it does like cons(#2 #2)
19:10:46 <oklopol> i didn't understand how tail recursion works
19:10:52 <oklopol> because it's a very new concept for me!
19:11:16 <oklopol> but right, when you write it in recurse(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1))) form, it's rather clear this function does not need cons
19:11:37 <Vorpal> oklopol, just remember the linking of code :)
19:12:01 <oklopol> anyway i want functions to return multiple values, that would fit the scheme so perfectly, especially since you don't actually ever *call* functions
19:13:14 <oklopol> trivia: you can write code that looks like you're returning multiple values now, but they are completely ignored in examples by parser
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19:14:32 <elliott> |^(0) => @(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1)))
19:14:55 <elliott> actually i should probably drop the ^/. indicator
19:15:02 <elliott> since it doesn't actually help you understand it now
19:15:32 <oklopol> tusho: can't find it in there
19:15:55 <elliott> | 0 => @(inc(#0) inc(inc(#1)))
19:16:03 <elliott> | 0 => @(dec(#0) dec(dec(#1)))
19:16:07 <elliott> oklopol: ...are you back in time?
19:16:15 <elliott> HEY i JUST REALISED, i can replace constants like this
19:16:39 <oklopol> elliott: i was reading contents of vj.fi
19:16:46 <elliott> oklopol: is tusho there a lot?
19:16:57 <oklopol> i saw a folder named tusho...
19:17:44 <oklopol> ah the redirecting service
19:18:16 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYws8biwOYc someone has redirected "awesome" to this
19:19:00 <oklopol> so even more 100% sure that it was not just a random internet guy
19:19:38 <oklopol> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Tusho%20is%20a%20girl%20part%201.mov
19:20:05 <elliott> why can't we forget i was ever proved female
19:21:56 <elliott> [id(compare(#0 compare(#0 #0)))]
19:22:01 <elliott> ...can't believe this is actually kinda working :D
19:22:17 <elliott> oklopol: :( my ast is getting readable enough that i can't explain how amazing it is
19:22:48 <Vorpal> elliott, that statement made no sense
19:23:00 <Vorpal> unless unreadable == amazing
19:23:02 <elliott> before i could give a lesson on what each part ment and how it switched and stuff
19:23:06 <elliott> but now anyone can make sense of it...
19:24:09 <oklopol> i agree that's kind beautiful, as long as you have #x actually mean constants and arguments, and not named expressions
19:24:44 <oklopol> wait i guess it's just when the subrecursion inputs are calculated that new things are named?
19:25:02 <oklopol> bleh, i'll just let you figure this out, and complain about the obvious problems if there are any
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19:25:57 <oklopol> yeah i guess the reason for named things is that that's actually how the computation goes, since it's faster not to compute things multiple times
19:26:05 <oklopol> of course, usually the named expression is only used once
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19:29:41 <elliott> | 4 => @(pair(#1 car(cdr(#0))))
19:29:46 <Vorpal> oklopol, is this for the compiled output or for the process of compilation? If it is for the compiled output, couldn't you keep a counter for each named expression and inline it just used once?
19:29:46 <elliott> this shit actually works :D
19:29:48 <oklopol> elliott: btw i think you can use constants when computing the condition, i think it's more likely that when it tries compare(#0 #0), it actually substitutes that for the code for generating the number 0 (which was the constant zero), because it noticed due to memoization that they have the same results.
19:30:03 <oklopol> because it can't actually measure whether constant 0 or compare(arg1 arg1) is faster
19:30:18 <elliott> depth of first isn't working i don't think, it's showing wrongly
19:30:27 <elliott> oklopol: no, you can't use such a constant
19:30:30 <elliott> oklopol: because it gets the first param as #0
19:30:32 <elliott> even if you have constants
19:30:38 <elliott> so clearly it doesn't get constants :)
19:30:40 <oklopol> elliott: what are #0 #1 and #2 in that, it's not clear.
19:30:48 <elliott> things...i'm trying to work it out
19:31:31 <oklopol> i'll look in the code to see if you're right about constants
19:31:39 <oklopol> i'm rather convinced you are
19:35:25 <oklopol> glue is not called with that information.
19:35:36 <oklopol> # find the code for determining branch
19:35:36 <oklopol> _,preprocessing,prepcode=glue(clue.bag,
19:35:36 <oklopol> (lambda f,args:stuff.getarity(f)==len(args)),
19:35:36 <oklopol> (lambda a:is_partition(stuff.apply_to_visible(clue.cond,[a]))))
19:35:52 <oklopol> should have constants before it
19:36:16 <elliott> oklopol: you should add that :P
19:36:32 <elliott> oklopol: should i patch it up to make it a little bit more efficient?
19:36:42 <oklopol> well, at least the great thing about clue is no programs should break
19:37:22 <oklopol> not many languages where you can start giving more unnamed args to functions, and they still work the same way
19:37:31 <elliott> | aaaaaaaaa3 => @(pair(#1 #2))
19:37:33 <elliott> | aaaaaa4 => @(pair(#1 car(cdr(#0))))
19:37:35 <elliott> now that's what i call debugging output
19:38:04 <oklopol> maybe i should fix it, that's so clearly an error
19:38:17 <elliott> oh man, this is quite impressively broken i think
19:38:32 <oklopol> but i wonder how localized i can make the change, i believe pretty localized, but hmmhmm
19:38:42 <elliott> oklopol: i can do it if you want, this is fun
19:39:18 <oklopol> copy paste the code for fixed_h_objs from some other func, unless you know what invisible_lists are
19:39:40 <oklopol> they are just when you want a vector such that all things are actually applied to their contents
19:39:56 <oklopol> so that we can have multiple examples, and functions apply to them separately
19:40:01 <elliott> i have never once wanted that
19:40:21 <oklopol> well, you need it for this
19:40:47 <oklopol> it's a rather common thing to need
19:41:14 <elliott> just as soon as i fix this abomination
19:42:41 <oklopol> see this way i can write glue (which is the only thing that does any search) in such a way that it doesn't have to know anything about multiple examples, or even what examples are, it's just looking for a path from A to B, for expressions A and B, and given operations for walking (contents of bag)
19:43:22 <elliott> oklopol: and yet it's a hideous function
19:43:26 <elliott> very true to the Clue spirit i feel
19:44:15 <oklopol> well there's tons of optimization
19:44:19 <oklopol> otherwise it's not that many lines
19:44:24 <oklopol> also some debugging stuff i haven't removed
19:45:02 <oklopol> the basic reason is the compiler actually compiles everything into a python function, the asts aren't actually executed
19:45:12 <oklopol> and of course i do this by building hideous lambdas
19:45:23 <oklopol> newobjrecipe=(lambda fun_,subsetrecs_ :
19:45:24 <oklopol> app(fun_,map(lambda o:o(app,*args),subsetrecs_))))(fun,subsetrecs)
19:47:29 <j-invariant> I just need a really simple (to specify) program -- but filling the details in (i.e. writing it) is a huge hassle
19:47:38 <elliott> j-invariant: that's why clue is great!
19:47:55 <elliott> j-invariant: figures out all the little details for you, so long as you specify them all in an unreadable form underneath the examples
19:48:31 <elliott> oklopol: can i have some coffee, i need it to understand clue
19:48:32 <oklopol> what makes glue hideous is that when it's building objects, it's actually building the actual python object, an ast explaining how it was made, and a python lambda that makes it from the arguments given to the original glue function
19:48:39 <oklopol> and then i have many lines that do the memoization stuff
19:48:55 <j-invariant> you should make a human powered web interface for Clue
19:48:56 <oklopol> and i have a big try catch thing that checks whether applications succeed
19:49:05 <j-invariant> or maybe a different language all together
19:50:13 <oklopol> and applying, being applicable, what we're looking for, what functions we may use are abstracted away
19:51:11 <oklopol> their exact semantics are not as pretty as they could be ofc, might take 10 minutes to see how to make that thing infer say brainfuck code
19:52:38 <oklopol> but basically you could have objects be contents of brainfuck tape, and asts be code that generates them, prolly just leave recs empty (or generate bytecode of some sort)
19:53:48 <oklopol> then give a bag of operations like -- could be applicable iff object (the tape) has more than one at current cell, and it would add -- to the end of ast, and would decrement current cell twice to get the new object
19:54:03 <oklopol> glue would automatically memoize away multiple ways to get the same tape contents
19:54:30 <elliott> oklopol: am i correct in thinking that hardcoding the brancher/conditional to <id> would be the best thing?
19:54:40 <elliott> oklopol: since it works perfectly fine when you do that, and is also a very common thing to do
19:54:43 <elliott> and just removing <> entirely
19:55:17 <oklopol> ilkka just put <id> everywhere and told me conditions are done in a stupid way
19:55:24 <elliott> oklopol: well yes, in that you'd have to strip <> from it
19:55:30 <elliott> and then also get rid of <id>; since it'd be redundant
19:55:36 <elliott> but other than that it should work perfectly
19:55:51 <oklopol> maybe have it as backwards compatibility :D
19:55:52 <elliott> oklopol: call it "clue 1.5" :P
19:56:10 <elliott> oklopol: the backwards compatibility is the fact that there's a file called clue.py.old
19:56:45 <oklopol> or "that old clue.rar on vjn server if i didn't overwrite it yet"
19:57:00 <elliott> oklopol: clue 1.5 — more powerful conditions, less thinking about the bag, and OPTIMISED!
19:57:07 <elliott> CONSTANTS IN THE CONDITIONAL
19:57:39 <oklopol> well if i make 1.5, it'll have a completely different condition system, not just dropping <id>
19:58:09 <oklopol> i don't think that's really necessary, just have <id> for now
19:58:12 <elliott> oklopol: I'm going to do it whether you want to bother or not, just tell me what version number to give it :P
19:58:22 <elliott> well i'm optimising it anyway...and putting constants in conditions
19:58:30 <oklopol> maybe i'll actually call mine 1.5
19:58:30 <elliott> so i might as well fix the condition system a little bit while i am at it?
19:59:07 <elliott> oklopol: make it always assume <id> is given, remove <> from the parser
19:59:11 <elliott> and then in the ast printer, just ignore condname
20:00:25 <oklopol> also how were you planning to optimize? my suggestion is you add a "size" function to glue, and it always makes sure all subobjects are in the bag
20:00:37 <oklopol> so that you don't make objects bigger, unless you really have to
20:00:59 <oklopol> this would be rather easy to do, and would probably make ski compile in a millisecond
20:01:27 <elliott> oklopol: i'll probably do that
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20:01:44 <elliott> oklopol: first bit of optimisation was going to be "fix your stupid fucking is applicable" function though :D
20:01:54 <elliott> ok luatre now has nicer function printing!!!
20:02:05 <elliott> feed it something recursive
20:02:08 <oklopol> just do it without making glue dependent on the rest of the code, i'm very strict about the conceptual purity of code
20:02:31 <oklopol> what do you mean fix applicable function?
20:02:40 <elliott> where you call a function to see if it can be called.
20:03:10 <elliott> oklopol: um isinstance(f,types.FunctionType)
20:04:04 <oklopol> what if the function only works for integers?
20:04:13 <elliott> oklopol: irrelevant, you call it with no arguments
20:04:16 <elliott> so you can't find that out anyway
20:04:41 <elliott> ... length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ <empty>; cdr; inc
20:04:41 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
20:04:52 <elliott> .:. length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ <empty>; cdr; inc
20:04:52 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (length) :(
20:04:54 <oklopol> call it with no arguments? applicabler(fun,subsetobjs)
20:05:00 <oklopol> you do not call it with no arguments
20:05:01 <elliott> .:. length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ <empty>; cdr; inc; #0
20:05:02 <luatre> length: [empty(#0)] | False => inc(@(cdr(#0))) | True => 0
20:05:24 <oklopol> applicabler is one of the most important things in the whole system, currently of little use because you can't make your functions fail explicitly
20:05:29 <elliott> if str(e)[-12:]=="not callable":
20:05:45 <elliott> 20:04 elliott: .:. length ~ {:. [1,2,3] -> 3 : [2,3] -> 2 :. [[],2,[1,2],3] -> 4 : [2,[1,2],3] -> 3} length ~ {. [] -> 0} length ~ <empty>; cdr; inc; #0
20:05:45 <elliott> 20:04 luatre: length: [empty(#0)] | False => inc(@(cdr(#0))) | True => 0
20:05:47 <oklopol> i thought you wanted to remove applicabler from glue :D
20:05:53 <elliott> and you didn't even realise :D
20:06:06 <oklopol> well it uses python types directly
20:06:16 <elliott> oklopol: ok so here's what i'm planning to do for clue 1.25
20:06:16 <oklopol> you just don't have operations for them yet
20:06:20 <elliott> oklopol: optimisations and stuff
20:06:29 <elliott> oklopol: remove commas from lists :D
20:06:37 <elliott> oklopol: rename empty to empty? and make it return an int
20:06:41 <oklopol> yeah all those i agree with
20:06:45 <elliott> oklopol: and maybe add those neg/sub you have
20:06:53 <elliott> which implements them using my impls :D
20:07:05 <oklopol> although i doubt you'll be able to donate that many optimizations
20:07:09 <oklopol> that are actually relevant
20:07:14 <elliott> probably not, but who cares
20:07:15 <oklopol> well, except the one i just explained to you
20:07:25 <elliott> 19:59 oklopol: also how were you planning to optimize? my suggestion is you add a "size" function to glue, and it always makes sure all subobjects are in the bag
20:07:41 <oklopol> it can get slightly hairy, but shouldn't be that hard
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20:09:23 <oklopol> O() wise, it's enough to check if at least one new object was added that was smaller than the ones it was derived from, and if such an object was added, skip adding the big stuff on this iteration
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20:09:53 <oklopol> unfortunately, if not all things are added, it also means you should start checking that you're not doing redundant stuff
20:10:23 <oklopol> which leads to all kinds of very nice fastenings, but will also make glue also conceptually ugly.
20:10:51 <elliott> Exception: Can't compile cadar(<id>), deep first with cutoff(<id>), deep first(<is list?>), make singleton(<id>), cadaar(<id>), depth of first(<is list?>), more than 3(<id>), pair(<id>), ski type?(<id>), ski apply(<ski type?>)
20:10:57 <oklopol> currently, glue is basically just for all subsets of objects found so far, check what functions can be applied, apply them all, remove duplicates, add to known objects.
20:11:27 <elliott> i was just using the old ski
20:11:48 <oklopol> should probably change that
20:11:57 <elliott> oklopol: nah, you can't tell it's a condition in 1.25!
20:12:15 <elliott> oklopol: clue decided it didn't need _ :D
20:12:17 <oklopol> well <ski type?> = <id>; ski type?
20:12:47 <oklopol> would be fun to look at the actual python bytecode generated btw
20:13:08 <oklopol> and perhaps make a version of glue that writes java bytecode instead
20:13:15 <oklopol> or, abstract that away as well
20:13:22 <elliott> oklopol: don't you call clue functions as the lambda
20:13:29 <elliott> so the bytecode will just look like... a function call to the interpreter
20:13:49 <elliott> oklopol: ...it decided it didn't need "is zero?"
20:14:05 <oklopol> a function call to the interpreter?!?
20:14:11 <oklopol> IT ACTUALLY COMPILES TO PYTHON
20:14:18 <elliott> oklopol: to...python strings?
20:14:18 <oklopol> there is not interpretation
20:14:27 <oklopol> that's why glue looks ugly
20:14:27 <elliott> oklopol: it manually writes bytecode?
20:14:42 <oklopol> no, it writes a whole mess of lambdas.
20:14:56 <elliott> oklopol: ok, but the point is that the lambdas don't get inlined inside each other
20:15:04 <elliott> so it's still going to look like a single lambda with a big environment full of lambdas
20:15:19 <oklopol> well you'll get very fragmented and jumpy python bytecode, yes
20:15:32 <oklopol> but not a function call the an interpreter, because there isn't one
20:17:22 <oklopol> i could, i guess, make glue directly write bytecode, if i abstracted away code generation
20:17:26 <oklopol> which wouldn't be very hard
20:18:04 <oklopol> and i could then change tail recursion to an actual loop ofc
20:18:45 <oklopol> which happens outside glue ofc, glue never recurses into code that hasn't been completely inferred yet
20:19:13 <oklopol> yeah it doesn't understand recursion, i guess that's what my point was
20:19:40 <elliott> you'll be pleased to know, i've broken ski somehow
20:19:53 <oklopol> it wasn't very hard to write
20:21:10 <oklopol> maybe i should write a really simple and stupid version of that glue + size_functions
20:21:26 <oklopol> i basically just wanna see if pivot starts magically compiling fast
20:22:32 <elliott> incidentally why does make singletone exist
20:22:36 <elliott> you can do pair with just #[] and cons
20:23:04 <oklopol> or even just that functions can be neutral, building or demolishing
20:23:20 <elliott> oklopol: i'll be happy to incorporate those changes into 1.25 :P
20:23:26 <oklopol> elliott: because it was easier to make things compile that way
20:23:44 <elliott> oklopol: see with clue 1.25 it just works
20:24:01 <elliott> . [3], [4, 5] -> [[3], [4, 5]]}
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20:24:13 <oklopol> building and demolishing could easily be actual concepts you can have for your objects as well, it's clear what they are in general for inductive data structures
20:24:32 <elliott> oklopol: constructing, destructing
20:24:54 <elliott> mine have a nice balance :P
20:25:04 <oklopol> by which i mean oo uses constructing
20:25:27 <oklopol> oo doesn't really make inductive data structures very natural
20:28:06 <oklopol> i should also have some kind of "in-place" changing of things, that is, you don't have to demolish an object, get to one of its subobjects, change it, and build the original back, but instead, you can virtually demolish, and sort of just get an (object, pointer) pair, such that building something out of this new object actually builds something out of the subobject referenced by the pointer, and the actual object is built on top
20:28:35 <oklopol> as an implementation detail, since elliott claims he might want to do this kinda stuff
20:28:50 <elliott> well yeah if it's not too hard.
20:28:53 <oklopol> whereas it's clear i'll just do stuff in my head and then go all meeeeeeh code.
20:28:54 <zzo38> j-invariant: Which maze?
20:29:26 <oklopol> elliott: that thing i just mentioned might be a tad complicated to do in a nice way
20:29:26 <oerjan> <j-invariant> oklopol: introduction and elimination <-- that's more for type systems and logic deductions, isn't it?
20:30:01 <oklopol> the reason i like demolishing is that you actually destroy an inductive data structure *completely*
20:30:18 <oklopol> you don't just use it once or twice
20:30:32 <oklopol> i mean you will in the compiled prog, ofc
20:31:03 <oerjan> like if x :: a and y :: b then (x,y) :: (a,b)
20:31:05 <zzo38> j-invariant: Although the display-mode ("P") function doesn't work here, you can still use bombs and bullets. Also there are various fake walls.
20:31:24 <oklopol> elliott: or more like, easy to do in a nice way, but not at all easy to see how to actually have it make things fast, instead of just adding another exponential blow-up
20:31:40 <oklopol> or not, but i'm not gonna get into the details maybe
20:31:46 <elliott> oerjan: it's what dependent losers use :D like me!
20:33:16 <oklopol> maybe i'll add building and demolishing as quick hacks now, as poc
20:33:50 <oklopol> but the functions are actual python functions, so i can't just quickly add that info to them :(
20:33:54 <oklopol> or i can, but that sounds ugly
20:34:00 <j-invariant> zzo38: I am raelly stunned by this game btw
20:34:33 <zzo38> j-invariant: Yes that level with mirrors is not one of the best levels I have created. The other levels are better.
20:35:03 <oklopol> did j-invariant mention the mirror room at some point
20:35:37 <oklopol> would've been so classis zzo38 to guess a specific room you're referring to
20:36:44 <elliott> oklopol: i suggest rewriting it as an ast interpreter so that your structure easily allows compilation :}
20:36:52 <elliott> (just because an interp is easiest first)
20:37:38 * oerjan suddenly gets the idea of a codependent programming language
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20:38:04 <zzo38> j-invariant: Still, the mirror maze is solvable with some trial/errors (other levels are better). Just some hints, use bullets/bombs in case you forget where you are. Another way is that some things will push you and you can hear the noise of pushing. And, you can pick up potions, too.
20:38:25 <oklopol> nono i just need to have a function that extracts "construction type" information from functions, unspecified for most functions, but specified as building or demolishing for certain stdlib functions, in glue
20:38:39 <oklopol> so basically i'd be done if i could just add a string of information to the stdlib functions
20:39:26 <oerjan> <j-invariant> zzo38: I am raelly stunned by this game btw <-- so it has lots of ufos?
20:39:31 <zzo38> (If you have a save game, you can restore the save game and try a different level if you don't like that one?)
20:39:47 <elliott> oerjan: read you as oklopol was like, what, that's too real for him to mention
20:41:10 <elliott> oklopol: so when does the depth limit get exceedemated
20:42:37 <oklopol> return glue_(functions,applier,applicabler,lambda a:None,objectswithrecipes,condition,5,objects)
20:42:49 <oklopol> return glue_(functions,applier,applicabler,cons_typer,objects+newobjects,condition,depth_lim-1,orig_objs,objectlookup)
20:43:16 <oerjan> elliott: that _doesn't_ make sense
20:43:25 <oklopol> later, it will only make 5 *build* rounds
20:43:35 <elliott> oklopol: if the depth limit gets exceeded
20:43:37 <elliott> what has clue failed to do
20:43:46 <oklopol> it has failed to find an implementatoin.
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20:44:13 <oerjan> elliott: <elliott> oerjan: read you as oklopol was like, what, that's too real for him to mention
20:44:22 <elliott> oerjan: read your name as oklopol
20:44:29 <elliott> that's too real for him to mention
20:44:40 <elliott> oklopol: okay, so basically it means "im not smurf enough to this function?"
20:45:13 <elliott> where smurf is smart and to is to make
20:45:35 <elliott> oklopol: but that's...bad, yes
20:45:36 <oerjan> elliott: ufos are too real for oklopol to mention, gotcha
20:45:38 <oklopol> that it looks at the size 5 ball.
20:46:40 <elliott> oklopol: i think that <> is actually needed in some cases :D
20:46:43 <elliott> e.g. deep first with cutoff
20:46:47 <elliott> doesn't work without <id>...
20:46:59 <oklopol> it should, just slightly slower
20:47:09 <elliott> it's not actually slower, this
20:47:34 <oklopol> well obviously the functions that previously used something other than id will now be slower
20:47:42 <oklopol> because you're giving it the topmost function
20:47:45 <elliott> oklopol: nonono, this is confusing
20:47:47 <oklopol> instead of having it do that for you
20:48:36 <oklopol> so how do i add a bit of information to a function
20:48:46 <oklopol> i don't want to make my own function class or anything
20:50:46 <oklopol> AND THEN I'LL JUST MAKE A TRY CATCH BLOCK TO CHECK FOR THAT
20:51:18 <elliott> oklopol: getattr(func,'propname',default)
20:51:40 <elliott> aw man, it doesn't print I BARFED UP A YUPPIE
20:53:10 <elliott> oklopol: what the fuck is happening
20:54:15 <elliott> xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
20:55:19 <elliott> oklopol: tl;dr without <>, you need more examples
20:55:24 <elliott> to stop the silly thing thinking it can do trivial shit
20:55:52 <elliott> oklopol: so uh... should i add more examples or restore <>
20:57:56 <oklopol> so erm how did you do the removal of <> exactly
20:57:58 <elliott> oklopol: i mean obviously the clue purist in me says, obviously, get rid of <> and just add more examples
20:58:04 <elliott> oklopol: i hardcoded the cond function to id
20:58:06 <elliott> and left all the rest as is
20:58:17 <elliott> so everything has <id> now basically
20:58:22 <oklopol> and deep first broke what was it using?
20:58:55 <elliott> oklopol: yeah... is list? is in the function list though
20:59:03 <elliott> oklopol: it just needs another example in one or both blocks
20:59:07 <elliott> oklopol: so that clue realises it needs is list
20:59:25 <oklopol> it's okay that it needs two examples for deep first imo
20:59:45 <oklopol> i mean, the correct thing to do is assume the first ones are hard coded things, and the last one is a default branch
20:59:59 <oklopol> if you're trying to find the easiest implementation of the given behaviour
21:00:18 <oklopol> so just add another example for the constant case, and is list? in the bag
21:00:35 <elliott> is list was already in the bag
21:00:40 <elliott> but yeah, it's the constant case that needs adding
21:00:52 <elliott> oklopol: maybe if clue can't use all the functions you provide it should error out
21:01:01 <elliott> "either you have useless code, or i wasn't smart enough"
21:02:12 <elliott> yay ski seems to compile now... I think either deep first or my printing function is broken though :)
21:02:15 <elliott> probably my printing function
21:02:20 <elliott> deep first ~ {:. [[1, 2], 3] -> 1
21:02:27 <elliott> is what seems to have fixed it
21:02:33 <oklopol> i mean for instance if you just go "this can prolly be done with car, cons and cdr but i can't ass thinking about it", and turns out you just need two of those, then i wouldn't call that a bad thing
21:02:46 <elliott> "hey, you might wanna remove these: "
21:02:53 <elliott> "or else if you know it's needed, lol, i fucked up, be more examply please"
21:03:08 <elliott> oklopol: omg i just invented SuperClue
21:03:15 <elliott> oklopol: every function defined so far is put into every bag
21:03:42 <oklopol> yeah yeah, remove the reason glue actually works, and it'll be even more beautiful
21:04:21 <elliott> oklopol: well ... who runs programs
21:04:25 <oklopol> but, anyway that might actually be feasible, when a very nice interp is made by a very smart person, and when there's a bit more stuff you can do to help compilation
21:05:00 <elliott> | 3 => @(pair(cadar(#0) ski type?(cdr(#0))))
21:05:04 <elliott> that looks very suspicious
21:05:12 <elliott> just my broken printing function again
21:05:13 <oklopol> i mean, i'm going to add a rather nice syntax for adding new inductive data structures, at some point.
21:05:21 <elliott> oklopol: and then remove built in lists and numbers, yes?
21:05:33 <elliott> oklopol: omg... if it actually did guessing based on the induction scheme of the structure
21:05:36 <oklopol> rather nice as in, clue should never start to look like an esolang... again conceptually
21:05:58 <oklopol> elliott: yeah that's the idea
21:06:29 <elliott> oklopol: ski compilation is over 2x slower :D
21:06:31 <oklopol> that you have something like "list tool bag", which is the basic operations of lists, and if you have lists as args, it's unioned with the bag by defauly.
21:06:47 <elliott> oklopol: but then again...
21:06:52 <elliott> oklopol: optimising over language purity is kinda
21:07:11 <elliott> oh man, it actually uses my cpu doing this
21:07:18 <oklopol> yes. conditionals are you writing actual code, doing some specific thing.
21:07:20 <elliott> variable: we've invented your language which takes ages to compile anything
21:07:29 <oklopol> they should not be allowed near clue.
21:07:41 <elliott> oklopol: well if conditionals could take multiple arguments. then i wouldn't mind nearly as much
21:07:44 <elliott> because you wouldn't have to do <id>.
21:08:12 <oklopol> i sort of mind them anyway, i mean next thing you know you'll want to say "...and this recursive case should cons two things together"
21:08:36 <elliott> oklopol: oh sertanly, i just meant i wouldn't HATE IT WITH ALL MY GUTS if they could take multiple args
21:08:42 <variable> I'll look in a bit - I can't talk now
21:08:49 <elliott> oklopol: also, i am going to add constant support for conditionals now ...
21:08:52 * variable is working on a unnecessary compiler in haskell
21:08:53 <elliott> oklopol: can we stop calling it a conditional?
21:09:33 <elliott> condcode=lambda*a:clue.cond(preprocessing(apply,*a))
21:10:18 <elliott> oklopol: i just wanna know where you create the conditional code :D
21:10:21 <elliott> so i can give it constant access
21:10:26 <elliott> although the inferrer would have to know about it too
21:11:12 <oklopol> giving it constant access is not that easy, because you also have to call it with constants then
21:11:18 <oklopol> which is done in a different place
21:11:28 <oklopol> and no, glue doesn't need to know about this.
21:11:39 <oklopol> glue has nothing to do with anything around it
21:11:53 <oklopol> well, it will when i add demolishing check, but glue_ will still not
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21:12:36 <elliott> oklopol: clue is so awesome.
21:12:38 <oklopol> i keep tight track of logical dependancies, usually
21:14:37 <elliott> oklopol: you know what, you can add constants in conditionals :D
21:15:07 <oklopol> it's not actually that hard, but you need to wrap stuff in invisible lists a bit and such
21:16:28 <oklopol> essentially it's just giving glue the constants when you call it for conditional, in invisible lists full of that constant (for each example, that constant in the index of the invisible list reserved for that example), and then wait what?
21:16:31 <elliott> (lambda a:is_partition(stuff.apply_to_visible(clue.cond,[a]))))
21:16:35 <elliott> is it safe to turn this into uh
21:16:46 <elliott> say that clue.cond doesn't exist any more
21:16:53 <elliott> how can i rewrite that line?
21:16:56 <oklopol> and yeah then you need to find where the lambda is made that actually computes all of that stuff
21:17:55 <oklopol> i believe so, you can just check if the actual objects are a partition already
21:18:59 <oklopol> is_partition is... a bit involved is it...
21:19:26 <oklopol> it's because of default branches
21:20:06 <oklopol> is_partition actually checks if the list you give it is a partition, assuming one of the partition elements can be "default", so for instance [[1, 1, 1], [3, 3], [6, 5], [4, 4]] would be a partition
21:20:13 <oklopol> because only [6, 5] is default
21:20:29 <oklopol> yeah i believe that's how it works
21:21:05 <oklopol> so maybe just have is_partition as cond
21:21:08 <elliott> oklopol: okay so i just put the list in there directly.
21:21:19 <oklopol> instead of that whole lambda
21:22:44 <elliott> this is an achievement for me.
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21:25:22 <elliott> oklopol: can i rename inc/dec to succ/pred
21:25:52 <oklopol> ski now compiles in 3 seconds
21:26:12 <elliott> oklopol: holy shit give me your new clue.py, i want to see if no-conditions could actually be fast
21:26:27 <elliott> oklopol: unless you're lying
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21:26:53 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2721555448.txt
21:27:08 <elliott> you ... just changed stuff.py? not clue.py?
21:27:17 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1499968214.txt
21:29:02 <oklopol> it just does... well exactly what i explained earlier
21:29:22 <elliott> +def check_demolishing(f):
21:29:22 <elliott> + if getattr(f,'demolishing',None)==True:return True
21:29:28 <oklopol> note that functions are partitioned into demolishing and nondemolishing ones because i just wrote it where my cursor was :D
21:29:30 <elliott> oklopol: "return getattr(f,'demolishing',False)"
21:29:42 <oklopol> made me laugh when i saw what my fingers had done
21:30:06 <oklopol> but i wanted to leave it as a surprise for ya
21:31:01 <oklopol> hmm.... it's very likely i won't get pivot to work without the pointer idea
21:31:09 <oklopol> i wonder if there's some two line solution for that...
21:31:26 <oklopol> "<oklopol> note that functions are partitioned into demolishing and nondemolishing ones because i just wrote it where my cursor was :D" <<< you should be laughing at this instead of that two line demolishing check tho
21:31:55 <elliott> + for (funname,fun) in demolishingfuns+nondemolishingfuns:
21:31:57 <elliott> oklopol: that's the same as functions
21:32:26 <oklopol> unfortunately it does, see things are added one functions at a time
21:32:56 <oklopol> for a reason that is rather irrelevant at this point
21:32:58 <cheater00> might i just add that i hate humans
21:33:44 <elliott> oklopol: oaky, merged your changes in, time to test
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21:35:35 <elliott> UnboundLocalError: local variable 'newobjects' referenced before assignment
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21:36:46 <elliott> oklopol: ski without conditionals
21:37:04 <elliott> oklopol: does that mean that removing conditionals has... made it go faster?
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21:38:05 <oklopol> or maybe it means my computer is very slow
21:38:20 <elliott> oklopol: well okay but mine didn't do ski faster than 20s either
21:38:25 <elliott> oklopol: point is: hey removing conditions is practical!!
21:38:27 <oklopol> because it couldn't possibly be faster without conditionals
21:38:30 <oklopol> i mean compilation couldn't
21:38:40 <elliott> because the rest is so faster
21:38:41 <elliott> oklopol: has pivot compiled yet
21:38:53 <elliott> oklopol: i'll try with my faster computer? :p
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21:39:32 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2549382249.txt
21:39:37 <oklopol> go ahead, code might be wrong as well...
21:39:52 <oklopol> but i think i've tested everything except pivot at least
21:40:00 <oklopol> i seriously need to add that :: thing
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21:41:00 <elliott> oklopol: i could make a repl for luatrelang :P
21:41:32 <elliott> Exception: Can't compile caaar pivot helper(<id>), triple(<id>), cons to caaar(<id>), caaar with consed(<id>), make singleton(<id>), car pivot helper(<id>), caaar(<id>), pivot(<id>), cons to car(<id>), caar(<id>)
21:41:35 <elliott> i get to modify your code!!
21:41:40 <oklopol> it can't even compile the things outside pivot now, maybe ski just happened to be faster :\
21:41:56 <elliott> oklopol: i didn't save my old clue.py
21:42:03 <oklopol> it's the only list prog i have so hard to say
21:42:35 <oklopol> you can just comment car.demolishing = True.
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21:43:03 <oklopol> if you comment that out, it's basically the same as earlier
21:43:10 <oklopol> it's just demolishing funcs are tried first.
21:43:42 <oklopol> so at all times, you will have, in the list of found objects, every object that's a subobject of it
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21:43:51 <elliott> oklopol: pivot still going, are you sure this will compile in finite time?
21:43:53 <oklopol> *for every object, every subobject that's a ...
21:44:25 * elliott tries to compile without pivot
21:44:29 <elliott> uh this is... uncharacteristically slow
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21:45:09 <oklopol> there should be an simple way to disable compilation of something
21:46:28 <elliott> oklopol: i don't think this change was a good idea :D
21:46:43 <elliott> oklopol: well this... definitely went faster before.
21:46:59 <oklopol> huh? you've compiled that before?
21:47:05 <zzo38> When a line of text is centered vertically in a box, should it use only the part above the baseline for centering the text?
21:47:08 <elliott> oklopol: well no. but it looks trivial.
21:47:11 <elliott> oklopol: i mean without pivot
21:47:18 <elliott> it still hasn't compiled such simple things as "car pivot helper"
21:47:55 <oklopol> what i should do, is make glue simply demolish the original objects completely
21:47:59 <oklopol> but then not demolish any of the new ones
21:48:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:48:24 <oklopol> then maybe you would get both speedy ski, and speedy other things
21:48:56 <elliott> my laptop is being a great heater right now
21:49:50 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
21:53:44 <oklopol> changed, ski compiles at essentially same speed, no help with pivot :(
21:53:51 <j-invariant> spent ages defining polynomials in coq but I got into trouble with equality
21:55:04 <elliott> oklopol: to compile all the non-pivot functions in the file
21:55:09 <elliott> oklopol: note that they're all trivial :D
21:55:20 <oklopol> how long without demolishing?
21:55:35 <elliott> oklopol: just removing the .demolishing = True stuff for car and cdr you mean?
21:56:02 <oklopol> then it's what it was before, i recall even i could compile them
21:57:47 <elliott> oklopol: for all non-pivot functions
21:58:21 <oklopol> pivot should work faster with demolishing.
21:58:44 <elliott> oklopol: this is without conditionals btw
21:58:48 <oklopol> but i figured it can't actually *hurt* the others that much
21:58:53 <elliott> although it's equivalent for this file
22:00:39 <oklopol> so umm, wanna try adding demolishing just before pivot is compiled? :D
22:01:27 <oklopol> btw, as you may have guessed, that's essentially what strategies are, ugly workarounds so that you can help it look in the right direction
22:01:42 <elliott> oklopol: yeah, i oppose them vehemently
22:01:47 <elliott> oklopol: i do think you should replace the bag with something else though
22:01:51 <oklopol> although they have much higher ambitions than just guiding the search with utility functions
22:03:03 <elliott> oklopol: i think a form of strategies but purer
22:03:08 <elliott> oklopol: like, you describe what kind of algorithm is
22:03:11 <elliott> "depth first recursion" might be one
22:04:46 <oklopol> except that's much less pure than strategies
22:05:28 <oklopol> strategies are so abstract and complicated i can't even put my finger on them
22:05:29 <Sgeo> yay1 I slept all day!
22:06:24 <elliott> oklopol: it'd be describing the function
22:06:49 <elliott> oklopol: pivot still pivotoeing
22:07:09 <elliott> oklopol: are you sure this isn't in an infinite loop
22:07:21 <oklopol> it's not an infinite loop, no
22:08:10 <elliott> oklopol: greater-than-universe loop?
22:09:19 <oklopol> well it's superexponential
22:09:48 <oklopol> why do you think it's 5 instead of 100
22:09:48 <elliott> oklopol: why am i even running this then
22:10:02 <oklopol> because it might find the answer before doing the complete search
22:10:23 <oklopol> i have no idea how deep the answer lies!
22:10:29 <oklopol> actually i could just calculate i guess
22:10:43 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:11:43 <elliott> oklopol: ...you adopted my indentation convention :D
22:12:27 <elliott> oklopol: i have a feeling it's actually harder to read, but who cares it's prettier
22:13:03 <oklopol> it should just infer constocaaar( car(#2) #3 ) :\
22:13:13 <oklopol> maybe something is very fundamentally wrong somewhere
22:13:24 <oklopol> or, i have no idea what it's finding hard to do
22:13:25 <elliott> oklopol: are you sure your search algorithm is working right :D
22:13:37 <elliott> oklopol: erm why not put a bunch of prints with the func and its arguments above suspect functions
22:13:41 <elliott> and then just look at what it's doing so much
22:13:45 <oklopol> FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKUFKCUFKFJDKSF
22:13:49 <oklopol> FUCKFUFKFUKCUFUUFUCCKCFKJUFCKUCFKUCFUKCFUKCFUKCF
22:13:52 <oklopol> CFUJCFUJCFUKCFKCFKCFUKCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKUCFKU
22:14:49 <elliott> oklopol: oh my god the poor thing's been sitting there going WHAT CONDITION IS THIS WHAAAAAAT
22:14:59 <oklopol> run that search up to depth five and it's possible we'll know.
22:15:16 <elliott> oklopol: so uh. fix it? :p
22:15:19 <oklopol> yeah, that's the kind of thing the new conditionals will be able to do
22:15:25 <oklopol> now, it needs to be worked around
22:15:35 <elliott> oklopol: try not to work around it in a way that doesn't work without <> >_>
22:15:53 <oklopol> the problem is i didn't originally realize that i'll need cases for the recursive thing, and then i just split it in two cases without realizing CONDITIONS
22:16:07 <elliott> oklopol: right well... go fix
22:16:58 <oklopol> i actually have no idea how to fix that :P
22:17:06 <elliott> oklopol: rewrite from scratch? :P
22:17:22 <oklopol> what i have to do, obviously, is write the condition function
22:17:46 <elliott> oklopol: has anyone told you that you behave exactly like a really dim but hyper kitten somehow given silly amounts of intelligene?
22:19:36 <oklopol> no! actually no one *ever* told me that!
22:20:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:20:22 <elliott> oklopol: it has to be noted that i've been trying to think how to perfectly summarise how you act since, like, 2007
22:20:28 <elliott> so maybe everyone else just gave up sooner?
22:27:18 -!- augur has changed nick to |Rassilon|.
22:28:12 -!- |Rassilon| has changed nick to augur.
22:29:22 <oklopol> well fi:rassi is something you use to clean pipes
22:29:37 <oklopol> so isn't it fitting since augur is, well, you-know-what
22:30:02 <augur> sorry, i was reenacting the formation of timelord society in another channel
22:30:11 <oklopol> augur: ah, that was my second guess
22:30:51 * elliott waits for first night in first minecraft game on hard
22:30:56 <oklopol> i told my computer hey you silly little thing that cannot handle most flash games, have here this python program that constantly allocated more and more memory while doing this impossible search for a nonexistant thing
22:30:57 <elliott> i have a tiny house and no torches
22:31:19 <oklopol> yeah yeah once my computer starts working
22:33:01 <oklopol> i meant i told my computer i'll go elsewhere btw, in case that was what you were :(ing about
22:33:01 <elliott> oklopol im afraid of creepers
22:33:06 <elliott> and thinks taht make noise
22:33:21 <elliott> HOW DO I MAKE NIGHT BEARABLE
22:33:36 <oklopol> i find creepers even scarier during the day
22:33:46 <elliott> oklopol: also how do i get the courage to run outside on the first day
22:33:50 <elliott> all i have is a wooden fucking sword
22:34:03 <augur> in american parlance, a creeper is any guy who you're not attracted to who is attract to you
22:34:09 <elliott> auhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oaOBSdwJP7k/TFfZbw0Py8I/AAAAAAAABFQ/crE_sdzUIR4/s1600/Twocreepers.png
22:34:10 <elliott> augur: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oaOBSdwJP7k/TFfZbw0Py8I/AAAAAAAABFQ/crE_sdzUIR4/s1600/Twocreepers.png
22:34:17 <elliott> in american-post-minecraft parlance
22:34:21 <elliott> is the worst thing in the world
22:34:26 <augur> oh, a mindcraft thing
22:34:36 <oklopol> augur: yeah creeper is a special case of that
22:34:41 <elliott> oklopol: also i have no food!
22:34:56 <elliott> oklopol: hi skeleton out the window
22:36:06 <elliott> oklopol: you mean my server? when i learn how not to be a pussy
22:36:20 <Vorpal> augur, hm what would a game called mindcraft do?
22:36:35 <elliott> oklopol: also also how do i look outside the window without getting scared shitless
22:36:40 <oklopol> and that's a fuckload for this computer
22:36:52 <augur> Vorpal: it'd be like minecraft only instead of building castles you stop being lame.
22:36:56 <elliott> "In SMP, other people can't see your pictures." :D
22:37:05 <elliott> augur: excuse me, minecraft is awesome?
22:37:15 <elliott> uncreative poops build castles
22:37:26 <augur> the only awesome thing about mincraft is that CPU someone built
22:37:37 <augur> and maybe some other shit i dont know about
22:37:43 <augur> but the overwhelming majority of minecraft is lame
22:37:43 <elliott> augur: excuse me i believe i am working on a 128x128x128 cube made out of glass lit by lava?
22:37:45 <Vorpal> <elliott> "In SMP, other people can't see your pictures." :D <-- further if the chunk unloads from your client the painting will be gone. If that is what you meant.
22:37:54 <augur> elliott: sounds pretty lame to me
22:38:19 <augur> i dont sound lame to me
22:38:43 <oklopol> yes, the majority of mc is lame from the outside, that's rather irrelevant. how much have you actually played?
22:38:49 <augur> yeah but you're lame so your opinion doesnt count
22:38:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> oklopol: also also how do i look outside the window without getting scared shitless <-- by making the walls out of obsidian and so on
22:39:15 <elliott> Vorpal: no i'm just scared of seeing things
22:39:15 <oklopol> 's contributions to the world are mostly uninteresting
22:39:20 <augur> oklopol: i've played absolutely none, which is why my opinion is valid. its objective and untainted by the brainwashing of minecraft usage
22:39:41 <elliott> i can say this 'cuz my mind is untainted
22:39:44 <Vorpal> elliott, make a obsidian window shutter on the outside then. Then you can see through the window and see nothing scary
22:39:56 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT THINGS ARE MAKING NOISJEFOISNKGDFH;S]
22:39:58 <augur> besides, everyone knows you're a gay, elliott
22:40:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Make your house large enough that you can't hear anything outside when near the middle
22:40:23 <Vorpal> then never go near outer walls
22:40:27 <augur> are you a gay boy or a straight woman
22:40:28 <oklopol> augur: right, you should clarify that tho
22:40:36 <augur> both i should think
22:40:55 <augur> a superposition of both states, using the Quantum monad!
22:41:13 <oklopol> i'm fine with people hating on mc because you can't actually build anything interesting in it, it's just actually a fuckload of fun to do it, which is what makes the game a good one
22:41:17 <augur> is that a complement or a slight
22:41:27 <elliott> Vorpal: there is a skeleton like 5 blocks away from me fuck i can't see it aargh
22:41:29 -!- j-invariant has joined.
22:41:40 <augur> i actually dont give a shit about minecraft, i have no opinions of it
22:41:41 <elliott> j-invariant what did you do on your first night before you had stuff to make tools and shit
22:41:45 <Vorpal> elliott, not enough windows then!
22:41:51 <elliott> i'm in a really tiny house with a wooden sword looking scared out of my door with not orches
22:42:01 <augur> Phantom__Hoover: so a .. monad?
22:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is a problem.
22:42:16 <j-invariant> I died every night for the first 10 nights or something
22:42:33 <elliott> Vorpal: that's the best solution to my previous problem that i could cook up in ten minutes
22:42:44 <elliott> Vorpal: the previous problem was that i was in a dense forest with no good place for a house and basically nothing apart from wood and dirt.
22:42:48 <j-invariant> my world is quite habitable now, if you know the right places to go
22:42:52 <elliott> did i mention my house's bottom layer is made out of dirt
22:43:08 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, didn't you spawn on a beach?!
22:43:26 <elliott> but it was right next to a forest
22:43:31 <Vorpal> elliott, also digging down a few blocks will aways get to stone
22:43:33 <elliott> O FUCKING GOD THE SKELETON JUST WALKED PAST MY DOOR
22:43:40 <elliott> Vorpal: couldn't have got enough stone in time
22:43:56 <oklopol> "<elliott> j-invariant what did you do on your first night before you had stuff to make tools and shit" <<< it takes about 3 minutes to get rock tools
22:43:57 <Sgeo> elliott, on Peaceful, I shouldn't bother with lighting, should I?
22:43:59 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, you have 10 minutes from starting the first day until the first dusk
22:44:05 <Vorpal> elliott, what were you waiting for
22:44:13 <elliott> Sgeo: well. if you don't care about being able to see at night, sure.
22:44:23 <elliott> Vorpal: well first i had to walk to where there were trees, 30 seconds
22:44:41 <elliott> Vorpal: then i cut down two trees, waited for the saplings, and replanted (second one i looked for a big one) - 2 minutes about
22:44:47 <Vorpal> elliott, funny definition of "right next to" ;)
22:44:55 <j-invariant> is there a way to list you XYZ coordinates? or would that be cheating?
22:44:55 <elliott> ok it was actually 10 seconds.
22:44:57 <elliott> Vorpal: then i walked until i found some land that wasn't a fucking forest
22:45:13 <elliott> Vorpal: then i climbed to the top of it
22:45:16 <Vorpal> elliott, waiting for the saplings would be wrong thing to do at that stage unless it is the only tree near it
22:45:21 <elliott> Vorpal: then i cut down a biiig tree to make space for a house
22:45:23 <oklopol> "waited for the saplings"?
22:45:29 <j-invariant> ah great! that will make coordinate two tunnels much easier
22:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, that was wasted time
22:45:41 <elliott> Vorpal: then i started building my house, about 2 to 3 minutes
22:45:58 <elliott> Vorpal: finally it was done, then all the way through this i crafted a few things
22:46:08 <elliott> that was about 2 minutes in total then
22:46:14 <elliott> so yes, it started getting dark soon after.
22:46:21 <elliott> oklopol: umm saplings spawn on leaves if you cut down a tree
22:46:25 <elliott> oklopol: then the leaves decay and they fall
22:46:25 <Vorpal> elliott, crafting takes 2-5 seconds usually
22:46:30 <oklopol> why didn't you just hack them?
22:46:31 <elliott> Vorpal: i meant crafting in total.
22:46:59 <elliott> oklopol: but you have to wait for the saplings to generate to get more
22:47:00 <Vorpal> elliott, sure that takes some times. But point is, you wasted time on waiting for saplings
22:47:09 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. logs -> wood, wood -> sticks, -> workbench, -> pick, -> sword
22:47:10 <Vorpal> ignore them until you have a good shelter
22:47:13 <elliott> who cares, saplings took like 20 seconds in total
22:47:22 <elliott> also the craftings above weren't done all at once
22:47:28 <elliott> pretty much didn't stand around for a second.
22:47:40 <oklopol> elliott: you will get at least 2 saplings from a tree without any waiting
22:47:52 <elliott> come back you fucking skeleton i want to kill you
22:48:38 <elliott> did i mention i am on hard
22:48:52 <oklopol> skeletons are the same on hard
22:49:07 <oklopol> ...i mean CONGRATULATIONS! :)
22:49:17 <elliott> oklopol: their arrows deal greater damage
22:49:19 <Vorpal> elliott, suggestion for better first day handling: craft bench with first log, then axe with the next few. Cut down some more, craft pickaxe. Now build a shelter around the bench you placed, use wood and/or dirt or whatever is around. Doesn't matter if it is in wooded area, Way better that it is near spawn in case you die. Then you will have a nearby shelter
22:49:31 <Vorpal> elliott, then hunt coal
22:49:34 <oklopol> but that's less discouraging
22:49:51 <Vorpal> elliott, now, second day you look for a nice place for actual main base
22:49:56 <oklopol> also i didn't remember that, but that's not important.
22:50:35 <oklopol> another way to do things: take random direction, RUN
22:50:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you can craft the sword during the first night. Also keep track of time so you can get back to shelter in time
22:50:50 <oklopol> work all day, run all night
22:51:40 <elliott> oklopol: a creeper exploded me in the water
22:51:45 <elliott> and i had to get onto land or shit would happen
22:51:49 <elliott> because another was coming
22:51:55 <elliott> and then a zombie appeared
22:53:28 <oklopol> i would've survived all that.
22:53:36 <Vorpal> elliott, hm you never see any live humans. But there are skeletons and zombies. Presumably you are like the last man on earth. Post-apocalypse. Except scenery looks too untouched for that.
22:53:40 <elliott> oklopol: what would you have done, then
22:53:45 <elliott> Vorpal: there is one other ...
22:53:54 <oklopol> well you know, the usual i woulda killed them all
22:54:11 <elliott> oklopol: yeah i tried that, but they killed me
22:54:26 <oklopol> it's hard to explain, i'd have to show you
22:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, oh wait, do you use that mod that adds him? IIRC there was some human-mob mod too. That added both friendly and enemy humans. That built stuff even.
22:55:29 <elliott> any mod to do it is probably not as good as it should be
22:55:40 <elliott> i doubt he cuts down trees, for instance
22:55:50 <Vorpal> elliott, they didn't add doors though iirc
22:55:51 <elliott> they, i mean a herobrine mod
22:55:56 <elliott> the human mob stuff you can go up to
22:56:01 <elliott> herobrine you can't get near
22:56:40 <elliott> Vorpal: he's always just out of reach.
22:56:44 <elliott> okay why do all the enemy mobs have such fucking terrifying noises
22:57:19 <elliott> http://twitter.com/notch/status/23849639551700992
22:57:56 <elliott> "Oh no, I don't have a sister called Sandra who killed 10 people and then became web-famous by pretending to be a fish. And she definitely isn't secretly half-black."
22:58:04 <elliott> (i feel this situation is comparable)
22:58:29 <elliott> Vorpal: http://manicdigger.sourceforge.net/news/
22:59:03 <elliott> someone showed that to notch on twitter and he's all ":|||"
22:59:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what does it do? It doesn't really say. Just news.
22:59:30 <elliott> Vorpal: um look at screenshots
22:59:36 <elliott> seems to be compatible with MC servers too, well, circa july
23:00:03 <elliott> heh apparently it's actually about as old as mc... presumably they, eh, realigned their priorities after MC got popular though
23:00:09 <elliott> probably better coded mind you
23:00:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:01:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> (i feel this situation is comparable) <-- not really no
23:01:37 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, so is that the semi-mythical Minecraft Clone With A Chance?
23:01:48 -!- invariable has joined.
23:01:53 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It doesn't look good mind you.
23:01:54 <Vorpal> elliott, he stated he never had a brother except a half-one he never met. And that herobrine isn't real. Presumably in reply to someone?
23:02:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Herobrine is real.
23:02:05 <elliott> "Yeah, I pretty much live by XKCD" ————————————————————Notch~~~~~
23:02:11 -!- invariable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:13 <elliott> (3) did i mention i hate you
23:02:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why not boycott the game then!
23:02:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Well, yes, but he's *Notch*. He always hates people who build on his work.
23:02:49 <elliott> if notch were a drug dealer
23:02:52 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, none whatsoever :P
23:03:08 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/6/68/1283223082465.jpg has photographic proof.
23:03:29 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, well know hoax :P
23:04:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: did you know: talking to people who refuse to not take anything seriously is like talking to Vorpal
23:04:37 -!- drakhan has joined.
23:04:50 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't take things too seriously
23:04:58 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't take things seriously enough...
23:05:03 <Sgeo> Am I the anti-Vorpal?
23:05:27 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, are you saying that you aren't being serious about Herobrine?
23:05:46 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to AntiVorpal.
23:05:57 -!- elliott has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:06:05 <AntiVorpal> [Note: This nick should not be construed to mean that I hate Vorpal]
23:06:25 <Vorpal> AntiVorpal, you should ghost elliott now :P
23:06:27 <Sgeo> hmm, guess it broke again :D
23:06:35 <Sgeo> Vorpal: just steal my nick :{
23:06:38 <Sgeo> that is punishment enough
23:06:42 <Sgeo> to know the evil Vorpal is using my nick
23:06:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, har, as if I would let myself be ghosted
23:07:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Disconnected by services).
23:07:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:07:34 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:07:42 <Sgeo> so that's your password sgeo?
23:07:48 * AntiVorpal promises not to do that again, unless you actually get on my nerves
23:07:54 <Vorpal> + Sgeo (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott) has joined #esoteric <-- except you aren't logged in as him
23:08:00 <Sgeo> i didn't bother
23:08:25 <Phantom__Hoover> (FWIW, the only evidence I would actually accept of Herobrine (or any other ultra-rare events in a moddable game) would be if someone actually pointed me to the exact line where it says addHerobrine() in the MC jar.)
23:08:47 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, would you accept add_herobrine() instead?
23:10:03 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover: you DO realise that nobody believes herobrine?
23:10:09 <Sgeo> it is, and always has been, a joke
23:10:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, this one: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=111753
23:10:48 <AntiVorpal> Hey, when you pulled similar BS on me, you didn't admit it until I directly asked another channel and made a fool of myself there
23:11:07 <Sgeo> AntiVorpal: yes, because you believing that was hilarious in a pathetic kind of way.
23:11:10 <Sgeo> oklopol: done it yet?
23:11:13 <Vorpal> AntiVorpal, what do you expect from elliott?
23:11:24 <AntiVorpal> Vorpal, is consistency too much to ask?
23:11:37 <Sgeo> Vorpal: dude, he reacted to "#machomebrew" by asking whether Apple _really_ didn't let people run unsigned code on their computers
23:11:50 <Sgeo> and then kept believing it when me and Phantom__Hoover told him how, yes indeed, there were only a few interpreters and they only ran signed code
23:12:03 <AntiVorpal> Sgeo, what makes you think I actually believed it?
23:12:04 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I presume that channel is for their locked down products then?
23:12:13 <Sgeo> AntiVorpal: um because you've been offended by it ever since?
23:12:16 <Sgeo> Vorpal: no, it's a package manager.
23:12:28 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to elliott.
23:12:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well okay. Did he know this?
23:12:40 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
23:12:49 <Sgeo> Vorpal: no. but it was damn obvious that we were mocking him.
23:13:00 <Sgeo> beyond even "moron in a hurry" level.
23:13:07 -!- elliott has joined.
23:13:08 -!- elliott has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
23:13:15 <Sgeo> darn, one second too quick
23:13:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
23:13:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:13:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: sgeo did it to me :)
23:13:44 <Sgeo> don't care, i just wanted to ghost you
23:13:51 <Sgeo> like herobrine
23:14:11 <AntiVorpal> Hey, I'm not threatening to ghost you again... until I get bored of this nick, at any rate
23:14:13 <Sgeo> i could have ghosted you again
23:14:51 <Sgeo> j-invariant: F1+F2
23:14:53 <Sgeo> didn't i tell you that
23:14:54 <Vorpal> whoever is the real elliott atm: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=122479
23:15:00 <Sgeo> that's Phantom_Hoover
23:15:00 <Vorpal> you might be interested in that
23:15:27 <Sgeo> does it still authenticate you if you choose to stay back
23:15:41 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftforum.net/download/file.php?avatar=49238_1293764836.jpg omg what are these, they look delicious
23:16:04 <Sgeo> lol one of the idlers in here replied to that thread
23:16:05 <Vorpal> okay sgeo is ehird I guess. *checks /whois*
23:16:20 <AntiVorpal> Vorpal, you weren't paying attention to the nick changes?
23:16:31 <Sgeo> reminds me of when Gregor and I were each other for like
23:16:33 <Sgeo> j-invariant: :D
23:16:35 <Sgeo> j-invariant: tree hideaway
23:16:39 <Vorpal> AntiVorpal, well not after "+ elliott is now known as Phantom_Hoover"
23:17:03 <Vorpal> j-invariant, switch to peaceful?
23:17:27 * Sgeo downloads the untested os x version
23:17:33 <Sgeo> j-invariant: why not build a house :P
23:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> How do we end up with such an insane number of lurkers?
23:18:25 <Sgeo> aww hi creeper :3
23:18:28 <Sgeo> creepers are kinda cute
23:18:30 <Sgeo> i actually don't mind them
23:18:37 <Sgeo> i'd rather have all creepers and no zombies/spiders/skeletons
23:18:39 <Sgeo> creepers don't make scary noises
23:18:42 <Sgeo> and are relatively easy to deal withi
23:19:07 <Sgeo> how do you guys pick up enemy drops at night
23:19:12 <Sgeo> like i don't wanna lose this sulphur
23:20:15 <j-invariant> Sgeo: is there a way to deal with this?? http://i.imgur.com/KqQ16.png
23:20:25 <Sgeo> j-invariant: sure
23:20:30 <Sgeo> j-invariant: get close to it, bash with sword
23:20:42 <Sgeo> either he'll die or, worst case, explode further away from your structure
23:21:47 <Vorpal> <j-invariant> Sgeo: is there a way to deal with this?? http://i.imgur.com/KqQ16.png <-- your structure looks insufficiently secured?
23:22:00 <Sgeo> it's easy enough to deal with creeper
23:22:04 <Sgeo> and beauty takes priority
23:22:08 -!- MigoMipo_A has quit (Quit: Bye).
23:22:22 <Vorpal> well, what is it? not a shelter at least
23:22:32 <Sgeo> i think i'm going to build a house on top of a high stack of dirt
23:22:44 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and beauty comes second place to "does it's job well"
23:22:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal: it is obviously not meant for use at night
23:23:20 <Sgeo> j-invariant: :)
23:23:23 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to elliott.
23:23:29 <elliott> don't wanna not get credit for all this good advice
23:23:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and if being beautiful is the job then of course it comes in first place. By the same definition.
23:25:05 <elliott> you know what would be cool? an smp server which spawns everyone really far away from each other
23:25:24 <elliott> you'd have to set up a little empire and fort before you have enough materials and stuff to start finding other people
23:26:16 <elliott> "At the end of 2010, the "open-source" software movement, whose activists tend to be fringe academics and ponytailed computer geeks" — wall street journal. ha
23:26:31 -!- AntiVorpal has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:26:47 <Sgeo> elliott, somehow, I'm not scared
23:26:47 <elliott> stop stealing Sgeo's nick, antivorpal
23:27:09 <elliott> seth, gold, activeworlds... no passwords found yet
23:27:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Sgeo, and beauty comes second place to "does it's job well"
23:27:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, there is no actual need for walls when you're in the air.
23:28:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, true. But how did the creeper get up?
23:29:07 <elliott> It's not on the structure.
23:29:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Omg, I should make a wall-less house.
23:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I gave Vegastrike a try and found it supremely boring.
23:29:42 <ais523> hmm, that was a power cut
23:31:06 <Vorpal> <elliott> It's not on the structure. <-- it is up in the tree however
23:31:34 <Vorpal> and actually very near the structure. In fact I think it is in it, it looks like it dips down there
23:32:01 <Sgeo> Yay at my step-mother calling me mentally ill
23:32:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it feels like it had potential to be a good game, but the project seems to have more or less died. Or seemed to when I last checked.
23:32:38 <Sgeo> elliott, my step-mother doesn't live here
23:32:42 <Sgeo> If she did, I'd go insane
23:33:28 <oklopol> elliott: i found an actual, meaningful error in the compile
23:33:44 <oklopol> one that's not a missed typo, but a complete failure of brianing
23:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes... I think it's just a general lack of interest in space sims.
23:34:24 <oklopol> unless i'm mistaken, everything is completely wrong, although it's very hard to notice.
23:34:31 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[food].
23:34:56 <oklopol> like, i'm not sure multiple examples have actually helped the brancher at all, or something :D
23:35:03 <oklopol> not sure what the situ is yet
23:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Literally the only two I can think of in active development are Oolite (held afloat on a raft of nostalgia) and Infinity (depressingly near being vapourware).
23:36:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, realistic space sims: too small market segment
23:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> EVE does not count as a space sim here, since it's more of a MMO RTS.
23:36:44 <elliott> the great thing about asteroids ii is that it has great market potential!
23:36:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, generic as in including unrealistic ones too?
23:37:02 <elliott> it's basically an insane shooter! but awesome!
23:37:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that's stranger.
23:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm defining space sim as "you have a spaceship which you fly around in a non-automated fashion".
23:37:57 <oklopol> is minecraft in that definition?
23:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Which excludes EVE etc. in one fell stroke, since their flight system is "right click".
23:38:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have I mentioned that I am terrible at Asteroids?
23:38:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should get involved with EVE?
23:38:52 <Sgeo> I like Shattered Galaxy a lot, except for having to decide what stats to put points into
23:38:52 <elliott> Sgeo: If you like spreadsheets.
23:38:58 <elliott> Sgeo: EVE has a lot of that.
23:39:06 <elliott> You "learn" automatically. Somehow.
23:39:07 <Sgeo> I don't like the thought of applying math
23:39:23 <Sgeo> Math for math's sake is fun. Math for gaming purposes is not.
23:39:26 <elliott> If you're not good at accounting EVE is probably going to be a bit of a drag, though.
23:39:43 <Sgeo> No EVE, then. Ok.
23:39:46 <elliott> Sgeo: BTW, if you're good enough, you can play for free. You can buy the monthly subscription with in-game money.
23:40:07 <elliott> You'd probably have to spend a few months paid and also be amazing to be able to do that exclusively, though.
23:40:22 <elliott> And you might have to blow up some ships and steal their money to do it.
23:40:35 <elliott> (Yes, this is legal in EVE.)
23:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's sad, really: space sims are a venerable genre with a history going back nearly as far as the idea of using a computer to play games.
23:41:24 * Sgeo <3 Microsoft Allegiance
23:42:16 <elliott> "Allegiance, the multiplayer space-combat game from the minds of Microsoft Research, combines the challenges of tactical squadron-based combat, intense one-on-one space dogfights, and amazing graphical and sound effects into a space-action experience like nothing you've seen before."
23:42:19 <elliott> Like Asteroids II, but worse.
23:43:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I also get the sense that I am the only person under the age of 40 in the Oolite community.
23:43:24 <Sgeo> elliott, that website is dead
23:43:39 <elliott> Sgeo: It's probably not Newtonian, and it's also 3D.
23:43:39 <Sgeo> http://freeallegiance.org/
23:43:51 <elliott> Sgeo: It is, therefore, *vastly* inferior to Asteroids II.
23:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Newtonian 3D flight is not something with a good reputation.
23:44:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's why Asteroids II isn't 3D.
23:44:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As far as I know a 2D Newtonian space shooter just hasn't been created yet.
23:44:32 <Sgeo> You do realize it's not a single-player game?
23:44:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Asteroids II doesn't even have a single player mode ... or if it does it's a very low priority.
23:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (I *really* want to give the ICP a spin, but it's Windows only and even on Wine it falls afoul of the Evil Graphical Glitch.
23:45:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, do you actually know what Asteroids II is?
23:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Notable for a) being the only solid evidence of progress and b) being Newtonian and 3D.
23:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, http://au.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/bestof_2000/p2_15.html
23:46:20 <elliott> Sgeo: It's a 2D multiplayer space shooter based on Newtonian mechanics with gravity (including orbits) and localised physics distortions (e.g. slowing down the speed of light to trap someone, then shooting the hell out of that bubble before they can escape).
23:46:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why newtonian?
23:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the awesome physics-based space shooter that me, elliott and (sort of) oklopol came up with.
23:46:48 <Vorpal> elliott, why not base it on general relativity?
23:46:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Ha ha ha ha ha ah a ha ha ha hahahaahahahahahahahaha
23:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because I do not actually have any idea what the hell a tensor is or what they do.
23:47:13 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't think Astroids II and Allegiance are in competition
23:47:22 <Sgeo> [Says the person who always abandons one language for another]
23:47:36 <elliott> Allegiance is a bad shooter that is neither Newtonian nor 2D.
23:47:39 <elliott> Asteroids II is therefore superior.
23:47:48 <Vorpal> elliott, why is being 3D bad as such?
23:47:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Because movement in 3D is a bitch and distracts from shooting shit.
23:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oi, those criteria include FS2 which was good.
23:48:02 <elliott> Also you can't do Newtonian well in 3D.
23:48:05 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. Joystick?
23:48:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Still not nearly as smooth as 2D.
23:48:35 <Vorpal> elliott, 3D is perfectly navigatable with joystick. Though not very much with just keyboard and mouse
23:49:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Regardless, 3D Newtonian is a bitch.
23:49:33 <elliott> 2D Newtonian hasn't been reacted-to yet because as of yet nobody has done it, as far as we know.
23:49:41 <elliott> However it's probably going to be superficially similar to Asteroids in how flight works.
23:49:45 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Do you dislike realistic 3D sims in general?
23:49:51 <Vorpal> elliott, such as flightsims.
23:49:58 <elliott> (In that turning around doesn't actually stop you flying in the way you're flying.)
23:50:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is it proper Newtonian?
23:50:09 <elliott> Or just a vague approximation?
23:50:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As proper as gravity.lisp.
23:50:33 <oklopol> star control had that yeah
23:50:33 <Sgeo> elliott, similar thing happens in Alleg. It's not Newtonian though, need thrusters to keep moving etc
23:50:33 <elliott> If not, as far as I'm concerned, gravity basically changes a lot.
23:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, but the essential features are there, other than unlimited acceleration.
23:50:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's the little bits that'll be innovative. :p
23:50:57 <Sgeo> Also, why not a relativistic 2d game, instead of newtonian?
23:51:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> (In that turning around doesn't actually stop you flying in the way you're flying.) <-- well duh. Even EV Override does that. It's 2D. And it is hardly realistic when it comes to other stuff (no gravity from planets and so on)
23:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> And Spacewar and Star Control both have (limited) gravitation.
23:51:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Because we're doing it on computers.
23:51:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, because the calculations for that are sodding difficult.
23:51:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ours isn't limited. :p
23:51:26 <elliott> Sgeo: Additionally multiplayer would be impossible.
23:51:30 <elliott> You need, like, perfect sync.
23:51:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "I cannot get even the vague gist of the equations" difficult.
23:51:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, physics distortion is innovative. :p
23:52:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "I do not understand the concepts behind the equations" difficuly.
23:52:07 <Sgeo> Is there any way I can help?
23:52:24 <Sgeo> <elliott> If Sgeo gets involved, I'm quitting
23:52:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Can you program in Amber?
23:52:42 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm sure I can learn Amber
23:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, not fair. It is a new language you invented for this.
23:52:45 <elliott> OK, it's day. I'm going to go out there, sword in hand, try not to die, and punch some trees.
23:52:59 <elliott> Vorpal: My, my, life isn't fire, Vorpal.
23:53:02 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> elliott, I'm sure I can learn Amber
23:53:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, but I hired you on other criteria.
23:53:19 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, wha?
23:53:30 <Sgeo> Is only elliott _capable_ of programming in Amber?
23:53:35 -!- augur[food] has changed nick to augur.
23:53:38 <elliott> Anyone can, it's a trivial language :P
23:53:38 <Sgeo> That makes no bleeding sense
23:53:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, elliott is making a new language just for this project
23:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I know nothing of it other than "it's C with GC and lambdas".
23:53:55 <Sgeo> C with lambdas ooh
23:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott has not actually defined it beyond some code snippets.
23:53:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, thus only he knows it yet.
23:54:08 <Sgeo> Oh, "making", not "made"
23:54:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is he slacking?
23:54:13 <oklopol> adding GC doesn't really have to change anything
23:54:28 <elliott> oklopol: yeah it's just that the GC is precise
23:54:30 <Phantom_Hoover> He has concluded that CL is TOO SLOW and that I need to program 3 inches from the metal.
23:54:34 <elliott> oklopol: which you can't do in C without ugly annotations
23:54:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Too slow, not really, but without bindings to things we need, yes.
23:54:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, based on profiling?
23:54:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Too slow, not really, but without bindings to things we need, yes.
23:55:04 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it arrived same second
23:55:05 <elliott> Also, as much as you love profiling, it is possible to use reason as well as blind testing.
23:55:11 <Sgeo> elliott, there are no good CL implementations with good ways to bind to ... what Phantom_Hoover said
23:55:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...which is a large project in itself.
23:55:27 <elliott> Amber is explicitly designed to not require bindings.
23:55:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, larger than writing your own language and using the C interface?
23:55:47 <Sgeo> Making it a perfect language for Active Worlds bots!
23:55:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Amber is also a nice language. :p
23:56:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ALSO: GC time.
23:56:17 <elliott> _Any_ GC that causes _any_ significant pause is completely unacceptable.
23:56:22 <elliott> Because the game will freeze.
23:56:30 <elliott> Gregor's generational GC is much faster than boehm.
23:56:39 <elliott> So hopefully it won't cause noticeable pauses.
23:56:52 <elliott> (If it does, I'll have to see if I can get a parallel GC.)
23:56:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are stop-the-world.
23:57:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what about haskell gc
23:57:24 <elliott> Vorpal: A Haskell game would spend an upsetting amount of time in IO without FRP.
23:57:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I do not know the model of haskell's gc
23:57:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Well, maybe not Franz's.
23:57:37 <elliott> Vorpal: GHC's garbage collector is concurrent but I do not know that it's parallel.
23:57:47 <Sgeo> elliott, what's the best way for me to learn FRP?
23:58:04 <elliott> There are no useful implementations yet.
23:58:05 <Sgeo> elliott, why not?
23:58:07 <Vorpal> elliott, and why not use FRP then?
23:58:17 <elliott> Vorpal: There are no useful implementations yet. Well, a few contenders, but.
23:58:21 <elliott> Definitely nothing commercial-ready.
23:58:25 <elliott> coppro: functional reactive programming
23:58:33 <coppro> thanks for clearing it up
23:58:35 <elliott> j-invariant: did i mention i don't know where my house is
23:58:40 <Sgeo> Racket has an implementation?
23:58:41 <oklopol> elliott: yeah umm, can you get a "greater than?" function to compile? :D
23:59:00 <elliott> j-invariant: because i had to walk to somewhere with enough space for a house first day
23:59:01 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, apparently it will make the entire world into kittens.
23:59:05 <oklopol> it seems conditions vs multiarg is completely wrong
23:59:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, he can get lost inside a 3x3x3 room in minecraft :P
23:59:19 <elliott> FRP is what makes functional programming possible.
23:59:25 <elliott> Rather than functional core with imperative interface code.
23:59:44 <Vorpal> j-invariant, he is THAT bad at navigating. (Okay, slight exaggeration, but not much)
23:59:52 <Sgeo> Going to try MC again
23:59:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Goddamn it, I have the Star Control 2 Ur-Quan theme stuck in my head
00:00:01 <coppro> elliott: you're spouting nonsense
00:00:16 <elliott> coppro: Alternatively: Tell that to Conal's face.
00:00:45 <coppro> it's at least bulshytt
00:00:54 <Vorpal> this looks interesting: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Functional_Reactive_Programming
00:00:55 <coppro> what you're saying, anyways
00:00:59 <elliott> coppro: OH MAN THANKS FOR YOUR CONVINCING ARGUMENTS
00:01:03 <elliott> good to know you are right
00:01:23 <elliott> i'll go back to using haskell, which is perfect as it is, obviously, despite the fact that many of the "leading" haskellers don't like IO and want FRP to succeed
00:01:30 <coppro> elliott: they're as high quality as your usual arguments
00:01:57 <oklopol> you can just run two copies of the program, and allocate a huge amount of memory in the other one, then always take the image drawn by the program that has recently changed the screen more
00:02:06 <oklopol> is my solution to gc freezing
00:02:16 <Vorpal> <coppro> elliott: they're as high quality as your usual arguments <-- coppro++
00:02:26 <oklopol> so that its gc cycle is different
00:02:33 <elliott> Vorpal: does it make you feel good to automatically agree with and side with anyone who doesn't agree with me?
00:02:36 <coppro> your argument is pretty much a vague appeal to authority
00:02:42 <elliott> you're in good company! like... Republicans!
00:02:46 <coppro> rather than any argument or even explanation of FRP
00:02:46 <elliott> coppro: no, see, i haven't presented any arguments
00:02:49 <elliott> coppro: i've just told you to go away
00:02:53 <Sgeo> elliott, http://docs.racket-lang.org/frtime/index.html isn't decent/
00:03:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea. I agreed with him based on actually agreeing on the point he was making.
00:03:12 <coppro> elliott: your argument is that FRP is "what makes functional programming possible"
00:03:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so I never tried out what you suggested.
00:03:19 <elliott> coppro: the IO monad is imperative.
00:03:20 <coppro> elliott: I'm not going away
00:03:23 <elliott> it wasn't an argument, also.
00:03:32 <elliott> Sgeo: no, it isn't. a good general implementation of FRP requires solutions to a few open research problems.
00:03:50 <coppro> the IO monad is interprative only depending on your interpretation of it
00:04:08 <Vorpal> elliott, does it feel good to always use strawman arguments by the way?
00:04:22 <elliott> Vorpal: ah... you see, you are making the same mistake as coppro
00:04:25 <elliott> I'm not making an argument.
00:04:28 <elliott> I'm telling you to fuck off.
00:04:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I am replying to this line in the same style: "<elliott> Vorpal: does it make you feel good to automatically agree with and side with anyone who doesn't agree with me?"
00:04:48 <coppro> elliott: we're not fucking off
00:04:51 <elliott> coppro: the IO monad is not impure iff C is impure.
00:04:54 <Sgeo> elliott, if you're going to tell people to fuck off, I'm going to tell you to fuck off.
00:04:56 <coppro> if you wish to stop having us talk to you
00:04:58 <elliott> ah, but you see, if I /ignore you, then you *will* fuck off.
00:05:12 <elliott> IRC clients have had ignore for the past two decades
00:05:17 <Vorpal> elliott, also appeal to authority: "<elliott> coppro: Alternatively: Tell that to Conal's face."
00:05:18 <oklopol> then that makes even less sense
00:05:28 <elliott> Vorpal: see, that was telling him to fuck off.
00:05:34 <coppro> elliott: you /ignoreing me is not me fucking off;
00:05:38 <elliott> if i thought an argument with coppro could be in any way productive, i would have responded differently.
00:05:44 <elliott> but, you see, i don't, because he always acts the exact same way
00:05:55 <elliott> oklopol: greater than works.
00:05:59 <elliott> Condition: ['compare', '#0', '#1']
00:06:03 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I think FRP looks interesting. But I despise the way you argument by being a jerk.
00:06:04 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't know if what you're saying has merit, but I am furious at you telling people to fuck off just because you disagree with them
00:06:10 <coppro> elliott: obviously no Haskell code will be truly functional
00:06:15 <elliott> Vorpal: *I am not arguing*
00:06:18 <coppro> no code on any Von Neumann machine will be
00:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, okay if you say so. Looked damn similar however.
00:06:44 <elliott> ignored until, say, you figure out the difference between language and implementation, coppro
00:06:46 <coppro> elliott: do you want to refute my argument?
00:06:53 <Sgeo> coppro, the impurity of Haskell lies right outside Haskell
00:07:06 <oklopol> oh so maybe i did something completely fuck when i changed that one last bit.
00:07:26 <elliott> oklopol: :D my greater than? works even if you don't give it #0 and #1
00:07:32 <elliott> Condition: ['compare', '#0', '#1']
00:07:33 <coppro> elliott: your argument is that IO is not pure because of how it is implemented, but FRP is pure because it can be implemented so that it can be pure
00:07:37 <coppro> i.e. you have no logic
00:07:43 <elliott> oklopol: how amazing is that
00:08:09 <zzo38> Magic Set Editor scripting language is almost pure. It has a few impurities which I think could be easily corrected.
00:08:37 <oklopol> coppro: look beneath the surface
00:08:50 <oklopol> elliott: can i see your code? :P
00:09:00 <zzo38> coppro: Why do you think?
00:09:07 <coppro> zzo38: it's an imperative language...
00:09:10 <elliott> greater than? ~ {. -1, 3 -> 0
00:09:10 <elliott> greater than? ~ {. 3, 3 -> 0
00:09:13 <elliott> greater than? ~ {. 3, -1 -> 1
00:09:14 <coppro> it happens to have first-class functions
00:09:14 <zzo38> (Well, I am making TeXnicard and it is more like dc instead?)
00:09:17 <elliott> greater than? ~ compare; #0; #1
00:09:19 <elliott> oklopol: maybe removing <> made it work, but i doubt it
00:09:54 <zzo38> coppro: No it only has local variables and those are not impure. They are only local.
00:10:12 <coppro> zzo38: how do you define pure?
00:11:47 <zzo38> coppro: It would be pure if you change the random number functions to take a parameter "seed" which is normally by the built-in variable called "seed", which is available (and reseeded) for each export template, add card scripts, and pack generation. And also the export template functions for directory should instead return a list, ...
00:12:03 <coppro> zzo38: define pure for me
00:12:10 <zzo38> ... and you return from the export template script, the list of all of those concatenated together and then it will copy the files. Instead of duing it immediately.
00:12:10 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
00:12:15 <zzo38> There, that would be pure.
00:12:18 <oklopol> look at this code snippet of mine, and tell me what you think
00:12:19 <oklopol> greater than? ~ {. 5, 6 -> 0 . 10, 12 -> 1 }
00:12:20 <oklopol> greater than? ~ {. 2, 2 -> 0 . 6, 6 -> 1 }
00:12:28 <oklopol> and then i looked at it for 15 minutes
00:12:36 <zzo38> coppro: Do you understand me?
00:12:38 <oklopol> i think i should sleep amore
00:12:39 <elliott> oklopol: i think you are my favourite person and can i come live with you
00:12:53 <oklopol> i've always wanted a 15yo gf
00:13:26 <elliott> oh, insufficiently clueterested
00:13:36 <elliott> clueterested sounds like some...horrible medical procedure
00:13:47 <elliott> like they redirect your bladder to your balls because it got infested or something
00:13:49 <coppro> zzo38: because you have failed to define pure
00:14:04 <zzo38> I know it is not a proper definition but doesn't it help?
00:14:14 <coppro> I want to know what your definition of pure it
00:15:23 <zzo38> coppro: That every function affects and is affected by, nothing outside of itself. Other variables outside of the function can be considered like a special kind of parameters, and so can variable assignment commands, because they can also be considered like parameters to the rest of the lines of the current function.
00:15:54 <elliott> oklopol: i think you have a bug or something
00:16:06 <elliott> zzo38: the current time of day is a paraemter to the program!
00:16:27 <elliott> there's only one recursion
00:16:49 <zzo38> (It does mean that for random numbers, you do have to keep track of the seed counter by yourself, but it could be defined a syntax to do so (like the increment operator in C)
00:17:03 <elliott> i'll try defining the function in lu
00:17:15 <variable> zzo38, int getRandomNumber { return 2; //chosen by a random die roll}
00:17:48 <variable> (and yes - I really did just roll a die)
00:18:12 <zzo38> The time of day, as long as it is set only once and stays the same for as long as the function takes to execute, it can work. (You could also have it set during card script, and a "action" script that you push a key to set date/time to the script so you can set it on the card, otherwise everything changes whenever you load the set!)
00:19:39 <zzo38> That way, would make it pure.
00:20:41 <elliott> oklopol: gimme your files so i can merge them in :D
00:20:48 <elliott> oklopol: was it just the pivot code that was bad
00:21:04 <oklopol> greater than? had an error, nothing else xD
00:21:29 <elliott> oklopol: so the pivot code was right?
00:21:36 <zzo38> You could make these suggested changes if you want to make MSE pure (it is not the most important thing); or use TeXnicard (which uses a different model of templates, so it doesn't need pure).
00:26:09 <oklopol> trying to make the actual quicksort now
00:26:40 <oklopol> but i have this vague feeling in my balls that that's not gonna happen anytime soon
00:28:33 <elliott> My new home is in the air.
00:28:36 <elliott> Although it's not tall enough to jump.
00:28:42 <elliott> oklopol: so can i have clue.py/stuff.py
00:28:57 -!- pingveno has quit (Write error: Broken pipe).
00:28:57 <oklopol> but i have a huge amount of horribly ugly debug code :D
00:29:18 -!- pingveno has joined.
00:29:18 <elliott> oklopol: i want the coooode
00:29:52 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:30:06 <elliott> :: dof~{.0->0.5->0}dof~{:.[[1,2],[3,4]]->2:[1,2]->1:.[[[1,2,3],4],5]->3:[[1,2,3],4]->2}dof~is list?; cons; car; cdr; inc; #0
00:30:06 <luatre> TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable :(
00:30:15 <elliott> :: dof~{.0->0 . 5->0}dof~{:.[[1,2],[3,4]]->2:[1,2]->1:.[[[1,2,3],4],5]->3:[[1,2,3],4]->2}dof~is list?; cons; car; cdr; inc; #0
00:30:15 <luatre> TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable :(
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00:32:51 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:34:34 <elliott> "That's not irony." ;; on the internet NOTHING counts as ironic
00:36:40 <j-invariant> everything is impossible but only after you waste 10 mins proving lemmas
00:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, you clearly have the same high standards for *everything* as elliott.
00:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> To the extent that nothing actually satisfies the standards without violating several laws of physics or precepts of mathematics.
00:38:57 <zzo38> elliott: Then invent one antigravity.
00:39:00 <elliott> i'm trying to think of something that i can honestly say is perfect
00:39:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: heck no :)
00:39:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: plain tex is gross, whatever zzo38 said
00:39:42 <elliott> latex is a bit limited sometimes
00:39:47 <zzo38> TeX is very good but not quite perfect.
00:40:47 <zzo38> LaTeX and PDF are much worse.
00:41:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:42:21 <oklopol> elliott: btw you're right in that there kind of is an interpreter, it's only the actual function applications that are made into python functions.
00:42:26 <oklopol> but i guess you already knew that
00:42:36 <j-invariant> I define a new data type like lists except that it cannot have trailing zeros: [0,1,2,0,44,5] is okay but [3,54,2,0,13,0] is a type error
00:42:56 <zzo38> Do you have opinion/comment/suggestion/question about this? http://sprunge.us/BFGb
00:42:59 <oklopol> yep, for some reason i just didn't realize that's actually a rather important part of execution, and not just something that's done at first
00:43:18 <oklopol> reason is probably that i haven't been able to think all that straight today
00:43:28 <oklopol> for instance i watched hours of gay porn
00:43:52 <oklopol> j-invariant: definition accepted
00:44:15 <zzo38> oklopol: Then don't watch pornography anymore.
00:45:04 * Sgeo suddenly wants to buy Chessudoku
00:45:04 <oklopol> nono i think it was more like that i wasn't thinking straight so i started watching men lick each other's balls on the internet
00:45:11 <oklopol> and not the other way around
00:45:32 <oklopol> the reason for this is that i didn't sleep very well
00:45:41 <oklopol> my head is all wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerlie.
00:46:11 <oklopol> but yeah i'll go on with... i don't remember what but maybe i do when i open py
00:46:56 <oklopol> elliott: i think i managed to make a program with an actual runtime error :D
00:47:22 <elliott> oklopol: re ball licking, i think zzo38 just doesn't want anyone to wtach pornography
00:47:29 <oklopol> at least i think quicksorting a list of 7 objects shouldn't take more than 100 deep recursion...
00:48:00 <oklopol> i basically watch pornography as a hobby
00:48:25 <j-invariant> it's not possible to define this list type in any useful way
00:48:34 <zzo38> oklopol: No, it isn't true. I don't want to watch pornography myself, if other people do I don't complain. However, if you watch pornography and you cannot do anything else, then obviously you have done something wrong, such as not watching it upsidedown.
00:49:04 <oklopol> if you want to do something else, but can't, then yes, i agree, you should probably flip your screen
00:49:08 <zzo38> (I am not trying to stop you from watching pornography, I am just trying to suggest better things)
00:50:02 <oklopol> well watching porn can be interesting, once you get past the whole mmm pussy let's masturbate thing.
00:50:48 <oklopol> i have done rather exhaustive research in many areas, but haven't found a publisher yet.
00:50:52 <j-invariant> elliott: I wanted to prove (forall x, [p](x) = [q](x)) -> p = q -- p and q are lists of numbers which represent polynomials, and [p] is the evaluation of p
00:51:05 <zzo38> oklopol: In what areas have you done exhaustive research?
00:51:39 <zzo38> oklopol: No, I just want to know why you have not found a publisher yet.
00:51:46 <zzo38> Can you publish it by yourself?
00:51:46 <oklopol> the most common paraphilias, regular porn is not very interesting outside the mm pussy part
00:52:05 <zzo38> What is the difference?
00:53:53 <oklopol> but it's interesting how people react in weird situatoins
00:54:09 <oklopol> which is a *very* diverse branch of porn
00:54:41 <oklopol> the rules are completely different
00:55:06 <zzo38> O, so you want to tell the difference which pornography movies you like which are interesting as opposed to non-interesting pornography. Is that it?
00:55:42 <oklopol> mostly i'm interested in what people will do for money
00:55:50 <oklopol> and how well they can hide it
00:56:55 <oklopol> and also, a single type of porn will have a rather clear set of rules, for instance even you might know that in american porn, the girl blows the guy, then they have sex a couple minutes in the basic positions, then the guy jizzes in her face
00:57:13 <oklopol> this is not how things like bukkake and scat work
00:57:25 <oklopol> it's roughly how it works, but a lot of subtletieas
00:57:45 <zzo38> Actually I wouldn't know, I don't like to watch pornography. But at least now I know that it is not so simple to categorize.
00:58:17 <zzo38> Like, if you have a pornography store or archive you would need subcategory for those kind of things, I guess.
00:58:43 <oklopol> the problem with categorization is it really never works
00:58:50 <zzo38> At least that is a bit better hobby than ordinary watching pornography.
01:00:03 <oklopol> i mean it's easy to categorize based on certain elements, like for most people it would suffice that "in this movie girls has sex with donkey"
01:00:31 <oklopol> it's rather easy to categorize based on what people actually wanna wank to
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01:01:11 <elliott> oklopol: i am totally moving in
01:01:15 <pikhq> Only in #esoteric does pornography get treated academically.
01:01:15 <oklopol> because most people either have one of a list common elements they want to see in their porn, and it's easy to find porn categorized based on those
01:01:25 <elliott> pikhq: erm plenty of other places too i would think :P
01:01:33 <pikhq> elliott: ONLY IN #ESOTERIC
01:01:38 <oklopol> like mm i wanna see fat chicks mm i wanna see japs licking each other's faces
01:02:13 <zzo38> If you are going to make a report would you categorize it? Such as, subcategories might be: artistic, photograph, movie, professional, manga, man, woman, American, children, animal, hard, soft, joke, .....
01:02:26 <oklopol> but once you get even slightly deeper, you can't really put your finger on the category, for instance there is obviously a continuous scale of whether the people actually enjoy touching each other
01:03:13 <elliott> zzo38: are you sure you would include the children category :D
01:03:49 <oklopol> i guess that's supposed to be the "amateur" category, but it doesn't really work that way
01:03:51 <zzo38> elliott: Of course child pornography is illegal but you need to include such a category anyways even if it is hidden
01:04:19 <pikhq> elliott: There is a black market for it, I'm sure.
01:04:21 <elliott> "[ ] Children (don't click this) (no really)"
01:04:27 <elliott> Vorpal: we're talking about pornography, hi
01:04:36 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
01:04:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that was what I reacted to
01:04:47 <oklopol> zzo38: no, i wouldn't categorize like that at all
01:05:11 <zzo38> oklopol: OK. How would you categorize? Do you need to make a report of how you categorize?
01:05:11 <pikhq> Not to mention that drawn depictions thereof are generally *legal*. Though it will suck if you get accused of pedophilia and caught with such.
01:05:15 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:05:23 <Vorpal> oklopol, maybe there is some overlap though?
01:05:57 <Vorpal> oklopol, I mean, for most useful categorisations
01:06:01 <elliott> pikhq: not in the uk actually
01:06:06 <elliott> as of recently... now i look suspicious for knowing this
01:06:08 <zzo38> I have not meant to imply it is a category that you select exactly one category.
01:06:18 <oklopol> zzo38: i would analyze individual movies
01:06:35 <oklopol> if i had to write a report
01:07:11 <zzo38> oklopol: Aren't you doing this for the purpose of writing a report, though?
01:07:23 <oklopol> i just thought you were interesting
01:07:48 <zzo38> Of course I don't know because I don't like to watch pornography. I am only making suggestion.
01:07:56 <zzo38> Probably I am entirely wrong.
01:08:26 <oklopol> zzo38: oh well yeah i would definitely agree with having those as terms for certain types of porn
01:08:28 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, but the UK probably still has laws against women showing ankle, I'm sure.
01:08:47 <oklopol> but for instance "hardcore" means nothing as an on/off scale
01:09:10 <oklopol> can be anything between "actual sex!" and max hardcore (actor)
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01:09:59 <coppro> pikhq: it's better than the USA's laws against women implying they might show ankle
01:10:01 <zzo38> oklopol: Then maybe you need to add a category titled "actual_sex"?
01:10:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, I believe it isn't legal in Sweden either. IIRC there was some court case some years ago that suggested that the law was to be interpreted as it not being legal. Though textual stories of the same would probably be.
01:10:24 <oklopol> zzo38: i'm not very good at putting things like reactions of people into words, so i doubt i could ever actually write any sort of report on anything.
01:10:31 <oklopol> well, i doubt anyone can do that
01:10:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: I seem to recall it being precedent that the 1st amendment bars bans on child pornography without actual children involved in the creation thereof.
01:10:53 <pikhq> At least, in the US.
01:11:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah the 1st amendment is only relevant for US
01:11:09 <zzo38> oklopol: I thought you previously said at first that you were going to write a report, and you need it published??
01:11:16 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... For now.
01:11:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you mean
01:11:22 <coppro> I'm pretty sure the 1st amendment doesn't ban that
01:11:27 <oklopol> doesn't really matter what they say, because cp and necro fans can soon just make their own animations.
01:11:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Joking suggestion that the US will conquer everything. That's all.
01:11:41 <elliott> Vorpal: We're going to give you democracy.
01:11:46 <zzo38> Can you just publish it by yourself? Or publish it in a pornography store?
01:12:01 <oklopol> "<zzo38> oklopol: I thought you previously said at first that you were going to write a report, and you need it published??" <<< are we talking about this because you took that seriously
01:12:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm just waiting for China to invade you ;P
01:12:14 <coppro> Vorpal: I was about to make that joke, except funnier
01:12:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, they're not going to invade.
01:12:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: They'll just purchase.
01:12:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh true. They can probably buy you for a tenth of the market value
01:13:08 <oklopol> i have watched tons of porn simply out of pure interest (not saying i haven't also watched tons of it because of penis), that's all i meant.
01:13:09 <Vorpal> (or as the market value would have been if you hadn't managed the economy so badly)
01:13:13 <pikhq> Arguably, they've been working on the down payment.
01:13:16 <zzo38> oklopol: OK, if you cannot write a report, then don't. But you seem to know enough about these things to write a very small report.
01:13:39 <pikhq> (China is the largest holder of federal debt ATM)
01:13:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, only after it all went bad
01:13:53 <Vorpal> (if you meant what I thought you meant)
01:14:09 <elliott> oklopol: lol speaking of max hardcore who you mentioned: "Based on Max Extreme 4, the city of Los Angeles in 1998 charged him with child pornography and distribution of obscenity. The fact that the actress was over the age of 18 was not disputed; they brought charges based solely on the fact that the actress was portraying a character who was underage."
01:14:12 <oklopol> i usually aim for a certain level of professionalism in everything i do
01:14:32 <oklopol> he has a lot of movies like that
01:14:49 <oklopol> but the amount obscenity is incredible for an american actor
01:15:55 <oklopol> americans tend to do even rather hardcore stuff with a hollywood style feel of unrealness.
01:16:10 <oklopol> unlike japs who are just insane
01:17:28 <oklopol> dunno if i've seen that movie, i've been out of the game for quite a while
01:17:38 <pikhq> And Germans, who seem to have a fondness for feces.
01:18:00 <oklopol> there's also that brazilian group, best known for 2g1c
01:18:33 <pikhq> Fucking crazy bastards.
01:18:43 <elliott> oklopol: have you watched SWAP.AVI?
01:18:47 <oklopol> they have a very unique way of doing things
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01:19:01 <oklopol> elliott: dunno, but usually i've seen the original movies years before these clips are made
01:19:05 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/horrible-saga-swapavi.php
01:19:10 <elliott> oklopol: it was requested by the something awful forums
01:19:19 <elliott> oklopol: to be the most ridiculous and inexplicable scat film possible
01:19:23 <elliott> oklopol: and they actually made it according to the requirements
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01:19:34 <elliott> oklopol: read http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/horrible-saga-swapavi.php
01:19:45 <elliott> Sexual Content: Imagine if the Holocaust was a 63 minute long video about pooping. Now imagine your mother drowning in a bathtub full of diarrhea. This is the sexual content of SWAP.avi.
01:19:46 <coppro> I should just never unignore elliott
01:19:52 <coppro> this channel is that much nicer without him
01:20:29 <Vorpal> coppro, only issue is missing out of more than half of the convos
01:20:29 <oklopol> well there are tons of 63 minute movies about pooping
01:20:34 <Vorpal> he is the most active speaker in here
01:20:56 <elliott> oklopol: no, no, keep watching
01:21:39 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm just waiting for you to have to do enough work that you leave and i will be able to completely dominate, making me in control of who ignores and gets ignores entirely based on channel flow.
01:22:28 <oerjan> coppro: under the circumstances, i am starting to agree
01:25:37 <elliott> oerjan: hey oklopol is the one who started the scat talk
01:26:17 * Sgeo decides he will ignore elliott's advice and re-investigate Ur/Web
01:27:03 <coppro> pikhq: who was that at?
01:27:05 <zzo38> Set your user mode +D if you want to ignore someone, next time.
01:27:30 <zzo38> I mean, mode +giDRQ
01:27:32 * elliott wonders wtf pikhq is doing
01:27:41 <pikhq> elliott: WTFing at coppro and oerjan.
01:27:45 <oerjan> pikhq: you and your funny blank lines
01:27:50 <zzo38> Next time you want to ignore someone, do like that instead.
01:27:59 <oklopol> looks pretty run-of-the-mill
01:28:06 <pikhq> 18:19 <coppro> I should just never unignore elliott
01:28:10 <pikhq> 18:19 <coppro> this channel is that much nicer without him
01:28:13 <pikhq> 18:22 <oerjan> coppro: under the circumstances, i am starting to agree
01:28:29 <elliott> i think oerjan is either complaining about my joke wrt controlling the channel flow. or the scat.
01:28:31 <elliott> i should ignore myself, it'd be fun
01:28:33 <elliott> never be able to correct typos
01:28:45 <coppro> pikhq: because while sometimes he provides me with new things to look at, usually what he does is "your worldview disagrees with mine you suck"
01:28:48 <oklopol> and the only reason i started talking about this is that zzo38 insisted
01:28:50 <elliott> coppro is just always an idiot, but apparently not idiotic enough to not ignore me
01:29:04 <elliott> solve the problem at the root
01:29:09 <pikhq> coppro: Your worldview disagrees with mine you suck.
01:29:18 <olsner> why not just ban everyone, that should be the end of all problems in this channel
01:29:19 <zzo38> oklopol: Because I insisted? ???
01:29:43 <zzo38> olsner: Don't ban anyone just set your user mode to +giDRQ -w
01:29:44 <elliott> olsner: how dare you suggest that
01:29:48 <elliott> and also everyone who isn't olsner
01:30:15 <Sgeo> elliott, how about joining ##elliott
01:30:16 <coppro> pikhq: that must have looked funny to elliott
01:30:20 <oerjan> pikhq: hey wait that _was_ a blank line, i thought you were doing something japanese i couldn't see
01:30:22 <Sgeo> And leaving #esoeric
01:30:25 <oklopol> "<zzo38> oklopol: In what areas have you done exhaustive research?" "<zzo38> What is the difference?" so i figured i'll take an example that makes you say "okay yeah i don't wanna know".
01:30:25 <zzo38> Setting the user mode like this is the best way to ignoring someone, instead.
01:30:33 <elliott> I think I'm an official representative for myself.
01:30:40 <coppro> I am also considering /ignoring zzo38
01:30:40 <elliott> So the extra # is ... not really needed ...
01:30:46 <oklopol> but you just kept asking for more
01:30:52 <coppro> on account of him never actually saying anything useful
01:30:54 <elliott> Sgeo: but, aww, you're hilarious when you're pissy
01:31:16 <zzo38> coppro: You do not need to ignore zzo38 or anyone else. If you want to ignore someone just set your user mode instead.
01:31:34 <elliott> zzo38: SHUT UP ABOUT USER MODES
01:32:09 <elliott> zzo38: unless they're programmed in enhanced cweb
01:32:13 <elliott> is your irc server programmed in enhanced cweb?
01:32:18 <elliott> can i download it with your web browser?
01:32:19 <coppro> yeah, definitely /ignoring zzo38
01:32:22 <elliott> will it run on your linux distribution?
01:32:29 <elliott> will I be able to configure it?
01:32:51 <zzo38> elliott: I did not write it entirely by myself. But both of these program will run my Linux distribution, you will be able to configure it, and it does have user modes.
01:32:51 <Sgeo> Wait, Gilad Bracha actually admires Racket's module system?
01:32:52 <oerjan> zzo38: how in the world is a user mode not containing information about a nick supposed to ignore them?
01:33:02 <elliott> If it's not written in Enhanced CWEB, I don't care, zzo38.
01:33:05 <zzo38> oerjan: Try it and see how.
01:33:12 <olsner> oerjan: because it ignores everyone? or something?
01:33:29 <zzo38> elliott: It is not written in Enhanced CWEB although maybe I can make change so that the next version is with Enhanced CWEB.
01:33:34 <oerjan> zzo38: so it's joke, ok.
01:33:51 <coppro> but zzo38 never actually says anything useful
01:33:57 <elliott> yes, the most hilarious joke
01:34:10 <elliott> oerjan: so why do you want to ignore me, i kinda want to optimise for annoying people?
01:34:27 <coppro> +Dg will make it so you pretty much can't receive messages
01:35:23 <coppro> the rest aren't really necessary
01:36:06 <elliott> i think oerjan has me on ignore
01:36:09 <oerjan> elliott: that scat thing
01:36:11 <elliott> usually he just bans people instead :D
01:36:17 <elliott> oerjan: oklopol was the one talking about it :P
01:36:30 <Sgeo> coppro, define "useful"
01:37:01 <Sgeo> You don't have me on ignore. Is what I say ever actually more useful than what zzo38 says?
01:37:09 <oklopol> i was talking about it because i was asked, and i don't think i mentioned anything that explicit
01:37:13 <elliott> Sgeo: that's an exceedingly good point
01:37:16 <elliott> i think i might ignore the both of you
01:37:16 <coppro> Sgeo: because unlike you, talking to zzo38 is like talking to a brick wall
01:37:31 <coppro> he never backs his claims up; he just rambles on about dumb things
01:37:36 <coppro> you seem to have some modicum of curiosity
01:37:38 <zzo38> With some of the bricks sideways and upsidedown.
01:37:55 <Sgeo> Thank you, I guess
01:37:56 <coppro> he just seems to get dumb ideas in his head and defend them to the death
01:38:08 <coppro> I mean "by repeating them over and over with no arguments"
01:38:18 <oerjan> what is it about people losing their temper over zzo38 lately
01:38:28 <elliott> oerjan: he didn't _use_ to spend every minute talking about enhanced cweb
01:38:39 <Sgeo> coppro, it's not that he gets dumb ideas... just ideas that are of interest to him and him alone, as far as I've seen.
01:38:41 <elliott> and butting into random, completely unrelated comments to talk about how everything you do should be in enhanced cweb.
01:39:00 <elliott> and, also, never actually really responds to any questioning or rebuttals of anything he says.
01:39:13 <elliott> tbh the "quantum free will" crap from a few days ago is what started annoying me, i didn't really care before that
01:39:24 <zzo38> I try to respond, at least. But maybe I do not do such good response.
01:39:27 <coppro> Sgeo: there was one a few days ago
01:39:31 <coppro> I'm too lazy to dig it out
01:39:41 <coppro> oh right the metaquantumwhodunnawutzit
01:39:44 <Sgeo> elliott, ooh, sounds like a discussion I'd be interested in
01:39:58 <oklopol> zzo38 annoyed me once for a few seconds
01:40:11 <elliott> Sgeo: apparently you can understand quantum free will by inverting a wikipedia article on itself to create a causality loop and then writing down the entanglement equation
01:40:13 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then read the log file you can read everything on this channel in the past days and weeks and months and years by anyone in this channel regardless of who wrote it.
01:40:15 <elliott> Sgeo: but not assuming the other part is real or even exists.
01:40:20 <elliott> Sgeo: This is almost a direct quote by the way.
01:40:32 <elliott> Sgeo: also, life creates the universe, but the universe creates life, and you can't have only one.
01:40:40 <elliott> Sgeo: also rocks have life but not very much life so they don't create the universe much.
01:40:43 <zzo38> elliott: I mean not inverting the article itself, but based on the double inversion of the things which the article discusses!!
01:40:54 <zzo38> (The article itself is not invert)
01:40:56 <elliott> The double inversion? So ... a no operation?
01:41:11 * Sgeo contrapositives zzo38 twice
01:41:17 <zzo38> elliott: No, I mean to have both the invert and double invert together.
01:41:28 <elliott> Ah. Because contradictions prove things!
01:41:28 <zzo38> Like, combined in one piece.
01:41:32 <Sgeo> zzo38, instead of inverting the ideas, try just describing them?
01:41:42 <Sgeo> As inverted, I mean
01:41:44 <elliott> Sgeo: oh god we spent a whole day doing this, why did you go and say that
01:41:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: I try to describe them?
01:41:58 <elliott> Sgeo: his explanation is that it's not life which creates the universe, it's both and neither.
01:42:12 <oklopol> "<zzo38> elliott: I mean not inverting the article itself, but based on the double inversion of the things which the article discusses!!" <<< okay clearly elliott had misunderstood you completely
01:42:13 <elliott> Sgeo: based on an article by some random quack written about on wikipedia who says that life is necessary for the universe or some crap.
01:42:18 <zzo38> elliott: Ah, now you can understand a bit better.
01:42:28 <Sgeo> zzo38, instead of describing ideas in terms of Wikipedia articles, describe them on their own terms, then optionally relate it to the article
01:42:30 <elliott> oklopol: well it's kind of hard to interpret nonsense
01:42:38 <Sgeo> elliott, Final Anthromorphic Principle?
01:42:47 * Sgeo wants to slap whoever came up with that
01:42:48 <elliott> Sgeo: no, not that, and it's "anthropomorphic".
01:42:51 <elliott> Sgeo: and that was Penrose.
01:42:56 <elliott> hmm i didn't add it to qdb
01:43:06 <elliott> oklopol: can it run qsort yet
01:43:26 <zzo38> Then add it (assuming HackEgo is not just broken)
01:43:26 <oklopol> well i've been busy ircing and thinking about whether i should read for that exam of mine
01:43:40 <zzo38> oklopol: Perhaps you should do the exam.
01:43:59 * Sgeo admires zzo38 not getting upset by the insults being hurled at him
01:44:18 <elliott> X in Y out, Y not mentioning X
01:44:31 <oklopol> i know what i should do, that doesn't necessarily mean i'll do it
01:44:32 <Sgeo> elliott, unsafeCoerce?
01:45:21 <Sgeo> So, zzo38 breaks the type system. Awesome.
01:46:00 <oklopol> funniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
01:47:38 <elliott> oklopol: well are you fixing it
01:47:50 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5451998242.txt
01:47:58 <oklopol> look at the output of compilation
01:48:20 <oklopol> i mean it compiles, but as i said, runtime error, i dunno what to dooooo
01:48:31 <elliott> oklopol: um yes, but you understand that i've been asking for your latest version
01:48:34 <elliott> oklopol: because mine hangs on that
01:48:37 <elliott> oklopol: so...gimme the py files
01:49:02 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Ioke is a bit like the only thing I like about Racket
01:50:00 <elliott> i really need to fix shutup.
01:50:09 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1815468777.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5342334176.txt
01:50:16 <oklopol> at your own safetylessness.
01:50:35 * Sgeo is more type-system-breaky than zzo38. Sometimes I'll say stuff out of the blue that has no connection to anything whatsoever, sometimes I'll say something semi-relevant, and sometimes I'll ask relevant questions
01:50:38 <oklopol> the way i debug is less than optimal :D
01:50:49 <Sgeo> elliott, what makes you think it's broken?
01:51:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: also, orange juice is nice. *slurp*
01:51:12 <elliott> Sgeo: well when i nicked to sgeo and said Factor it didn't yell at me.
01:51:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: Sometimes anyone might do, isn't it?
01:51:20 <elliott> oerjan: especially when it's fecal matter!
01:51:23 <Sgeo> It's yelling at me
01:51:43 <elliott> oklopol: you know what, remove all the debugging code and i'll make sure qsort works
01:51:50 <Sgeo> Gregor's apples to oranges comparision convinced me to like oranges
01:52:03 <oklopol> if i want to debug a specific moment of compilation
01:52:27 <oklopol> they are just print statements
01:52:31 <elliott> oklopol: because i have to merge it into _my_ version
01:52:44 <elliott> oklopol: which means considering all your changes and making sure they work without conditionals
01:52:54 <elliott> oklopol: pain enough to do that when I have all this cool stuff too :P
01:53:00 <oklopol> of course they work without them, i only change glue
01:53:19 <oklopol> cool stuff is just print statements, i use a global so i can trigger stuff in stuff.py as well.
01:54:12 <elliott> + if isinstance(l,list) and len(l)==0:return 1
01:54:23 <elliott> return int(isinstance(l,list) and len(l)==0)
01:55:15 <elliott> oklopol: so is demolishing a failed policy?
01:55:33 <oklopol> not really, it still makes ski very fast
01:55:49 <elliott> oklopol: but you haven't made it good yet. right. :p
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01:56:43 <oklopol> it gives a 6x improvement in one test case, so given that we currently have 2 test cases, i wouldn't exactly call it a failure
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01:57:17 <oklopol> it might be qs that's the odder one
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01:57:38 <elliott> oklopol: what do you use random for
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01:58:02 <oklopol> i added it to test random searching for fun
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02:00:42 <elliott> oklopol: "death" to crash the program
02:01:36 <elliott> oklopol: what why did you punctuate what
02:01:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:02:04 -!- oerjan has left (?).
02:02:05 <elliott> OKLOPOL JUST CAPITALISED AND PUNCTUATED A FUCKING SENTENCE
02:02:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
02:02:45 <oklopol> Can we just get back to the matter at hand, please.
02:03:01 -!- oklopol has changed nick to Oklopol.
02:03:02 <elliott> + if demolishing_done==True and first_round:break
02:03:05 <elliott> the real oklopol wrote this code
02:03:08 <elliott> he knows that you have to check booleans
02:03:11 <elliott> to see whether they're True
02:03:13 <elliott> before conditioning on them
02:03:27 <Oklopol> Okay. What does that have to do with anything?
02:03:28 * Sgeo decides to learn Io
02:03:34 <oerjan> now that was amusing, i wanted to close the chanserv window and closed #esoteric instead
02:03:36 <elliott> Oklopol: You're not the real oklopol.
02:03:49 <Sgeo> elliott, howso?
02:03:51 <elliott> Sgeo: said as someone who developed with it for months.
02:03:57 <elliott> Sgeo: and was part of the |||~~community~~|||
02:04:01 <elliott> Sgeo: for one, it has basically no stdlib.
02:04:05 <elliott> simple string and array functions are completely missing.
02:04:07 <oerjan> I'LL TAKE THAT AS A SIGN NOT TO BAN ELLIOTT YET
02:04:09 <Oklopol> elliott: I have no comment.
02:04:13 <elliott> also, there is basically no documentation
02:04:44 <oerjan> elliott: PAY ATTENTION. OR ELSE I'LL BAN YOU ANYWAY.
02:05:09 <Sgeo> elliott, so the concept is good, the execution is crap?
02:05:17 <elliott> Oklopol: i love how you called a variable demolishing, which stops you executing the demolishing function
02:05:22 <Oklopol> Oerjan accidentally exited #esoteric, when he tried to close the message from ChanServ when he opped himself. This meant he could not ban you.
02:05:31 <elliott> Sgeo: both are pretty crap. the "pass everything as a function" thing doesn't work well.
02:05:46 <elliott> foo(hello + world) <-- this could print "hello + world" to the screen even if hello=1 and world=2
02:05:54 <elliott> completely breaking basically... every invariant i can think of in programming
02:06:03 <oerjan> elliott: see Oklopol gets it. whether or not he's oklopol.
02:06:22 <Sgeo> elliott, isn't that what documentation is for?
02:06:34 <elliott> Sgeo: let's just have no rules.
02:06:40 <elliott> an arbitrary byte prefix has control over the rest of the program.
02:06:47 <elliott> string delimiters? why, functions can choose whichever ones they want.
02:06:52 <elliott> how can i use this without going insane?
02:06:55 <elliott> Isn't that what documentation is for?
02:08:28 <oerjan> elliott: i expect tomorrow we'll see in the news about how finland is the center of a new global pandemic of correct spelling, punctuation, and horrible fatal hemorrhaging.
02:08:33 <elliott> return call_clue(clue,args,10)
02:08:37 <elliott> Oklopol: you changed this to 1000, why? :P
02:09:03 <Oklopol> elliott: I changed it to 1000 in case quicksort actually happened to need more than 10 levels of function calls.
02:09:40 <elliott> Oklopol: oh my god you sound so...boring and sane like this
02:09:43 <Oklopol> I admit that was a much larger number than should be expected as an upper limit.
02:09:47 <elliott> Oklopol: so tell me, how do you structure your python code, usually
02:10:21 <Oklopol> Can you be more specific? "I think."
02:10:41 <elliott> Oklopol: like, what is your general coding formatting style!
02:11:07 <Oklopol> The one you see in the .py files i've given you.
02:11:47 <elliott> Oklopol: ok i hate you stop it
02:12:26 <Oklopol> Naming varies, because I don't particularly care about names, amount of whitespace varies, but is generally little. I tend to write rather long segments of code for doing simple things, even if I know a shorter way.
02:12:40 <elliott> clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (cadar)
02:12:48 <elliott> and also, are you going to be like this forever
02:13:19 <Oklopol> I don't know what you are referring to. Is that from running quicksort?
02:13:22 <oerjan> elliott: only until the hemorrhages start
02:13:25 <elliott> Oklopol: no from running ski
02:13:44 <Oklopol> Oh. Heh, I guess I've broken something then.
02:13:47 <elliott> hm can demolishing_done be a non-boolean :D
02:13:54 <elliott> just looking at the differences between our codes
02:14:00 <elliott> Oklopol: yeah well... get on fixing that, freak of nature
02:14:30 <elliott> Oklopol: note this is with my non-conditional thing
02:14:35 <elliott> so maybe the branch-inferrer is taking too long
02:14:40 <oerjan> freaks of culture are even creepier
02:14:51 <elliott> Oklopol: it does the same on foo.clue
02:14:55 <elliott> depth limit exceeded for is negative
02:15:02 <Oklopol> Well, given that I've never had a run-time error in a Clue program, and suddenly both programs in existence are failing with the same error...
02:15:25 <elliott> excuse me, btw, but foo.clue breaks too :D
02:15:28 <elliott> which is just my set of stuff
02:15:49 <Oklopol> At least that one example program does.
02:16:05 <Oklopol> Somehow I doubt you made another testcase.
02:16:51 <elliott> Oklopol: ok so it's the removal of conditionals that break it
02:17:04 <elliott> Oklopol: can we just unify on the non-conditional version to make this a whole lot easier for both of us? :P
02:18:06 <Oklopol> I don't particularly want to since things work very slowly on my machine without that additional complication for the compiler.
02:19:51 <elliott> Oklopol: ehh it's actually not slow at all
02:20:01 <elliott> Oklopol: it's like, 3/4ths as fast
02:20:31 <Oklopol> Well, you can give me your files once you get SKI to compile.
02:20:59 <Oklopol> And quicksort, since I would very much like to see the program that was inferred for it.
02:21:25 <elliott> Oklopol: i will try and figure out the bug
02:21:35 <elliott> Oklopol: but only if you talk okloy again
02:22:05 <Oklopol> I have to eat something now.
02:22:08 <elliott> Oklopol: in glue(), you pass depth_lim to glue_ as True
02:22:11 <elliott> Oklopol: which is the same as 1 as an int
02:22:15 <elliott> Oklopol: what's it meant to be, 5?
02:22:22 <elliott> and is orig_objs meant to be True?
02:22:25 <elliott> if you can just correct that call
02:23:00 <elliott> Oklopol: you do not pass it as 5 :)
02:23:12 <elliott> Oklopol: but i'm not sure which way it should be rearranged, so if you could correct it... :P
02:23:39 <Oklopol> To me it looks like I pass it as 5.
02:24:38 <elliott> depth_lim,orig_objs=None,objectlookup=None):
02:24:46 <elliott> depth_lim=True, orig_objs=5, objectlookup=objects.
02:25:01 <Oklopol> Yes, one argument is not passed from glue.
02:25:53 <elliott> Oklopol: i increased the depth limit and it just overflows python's stack.
02:26:00 <elliott> Oklopol: i conclude you have an infinite loop somewhere.
02:26:18 <elliott> Oklopol: ok pop quiz for you
02:26:20 <oerjan> glue is the clue to glue clue together
02:26:23 <elliott> Oklopol: where in glue_ do you ever exit?
02:26:52 <Sgeo> Ur/Web takes ideas from functional reactive programming?
02:27:11 <Oklopol> elliott: The infinite loop must be in the generated code.
02:27:23 <elliott> Sgeo: it's a research language with strong links to type theory that you have mistaken as some kind of industry tool.
02:27:36 <elliott> Sgeo: as i have said on numerous occasions, if you don't understand this, you will get nothing out of it.
02:28:42 <oerjan> but it's Web, it _must_ be industrial!
02:29:26 <elliott> he should have made it Ur/DependentlyTypedSpreadsheets or something to avoid the peanut gallery
02:34:47 <elliott> Oklopol: so um er fixed the bug yet? :D
02:35:24 <Oklopol> I don't even know if there's a bug.
02:36:42 <elliott> Oklopol: well. i assume so.
02:36:49 <elliott> Oklopol: since it can't even work out "is negative?".
02:36:57 <elliott> is negative? ~ {. 0 -> 0 }
02:37:03 <elliott> is negative? ~ compare; #0; #1
02:37:07 <elliott> Oklopol: which, you know, should not overflow python's stack.
02:37:37 <Oklopol> It can't? Weird, since SKI and pivot work normally.
02:38:11 <elliott> clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (cadar)
02:38:15 <elliott> if i increase the depth limit the stack just overflows.
02:38:28 <elliott> the only differences between our two versions is that mine hasn't got <> stuff, as i said
02:38:47 <elliott> - if demolishing_done and first_round:break
02:38:47 <elliott> + if demolishing_done==True and first_round:break
02:38:51 <elliott> demolishing_done can't be a non-bool, can it?
02:39:44 <Oklopol> It should always be a boolean.
02:40:52 <Oklopol> And I'm sure our versions are essentially identical, but I just plain cannot fix a bug my code does not have. If I've changed something that doesn't play well with your changes, sorry, but that's life.
02:41:20 <elliott> Oklopol: well considering our respective changes shouldn't even interact with glue ... :/
02:41:39 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/HQiJ is the whole differences... - is mine, + is yours... i'm trying to figure out wtf is up
02:41:55 <elliott> are you suuuure ski works for you? :/
02:44:03 <elliott> Oklopol: heh... if i remove most of the ski functions it finally gets a non-limit errors
02:44:08 <elliott> (complaining about all the missing things)
02:44:49 <elliott> Oklopol: ...okay so, as little as i believe this myself
02:44:55 <elliott> Oklopol: the error was a missing "import clue" in stuff.py.
02:45:07 <elliott> I guess apply_to_visible failed...somehow...
02:45:14 <elliott> Oklopol: do you have any big "catch every error" things?
02:45:20 <elliott> because that probably caused it if so
02:45:24 <Oklopol> So I suppose there was an error, which i catch somewhere.
02:45:31 <Oklopol> Sounds like something oklopol would do.
02:45:38 <elliott> yeah, but Oklopol would never do that
02:46:11 <elliott> Oklopol: so, um, i will try qsort now, can you link me to the current ver?
02:46:23 <Oklopol> It is interesting that I haven't run into that problem when debugging that.
02:46:32 <Oklopol> Sounds like something that would be a constant annoyance.
02:46:45 <Oklopol> It has not changed, but sure.
02:47:05 <Oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5399236149.txt
02:47:06 <Sgeo> elliott, As far as I can tell, what Ioke calls "macros" are Io-like functions
02:47:09 <elliott> Oklopol: i would have thought your code in general would be a constant annoyance when debugging :)
02:47:14 <elliott> that is, incidentally, not a complaint at all.
02:47:17 <Oklopol> Pivot should actually work, quicksort doesn't.
02:47:22 <Sgeo> Is that less bad than what Io does, since it means most functions don't do that sort of shenanigans?
02:47:27 <elliott> Oklopol: also it has changed i don't have qsort
02:47:30 <Oklopol> I don't find my code particularly hard to debug.
02:48:44 <elliott> Oklopol: qsort compiled, at least
02:48:50 <elliott> all in less than two seconds, no less
02:49:19 <elliott> add(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) @(pivot right(car(#0) #0)))
02:49:22 <elliott> is the non-null case for qsort
02:49:44 <elliott> now i'm not _certain_ but does qsort result in an integer?
02:49:46 <Oklopol> That looks pretty much right...
02:50:05 <elliott> Oklopol: yes, it works fine here. also, that <2s compilation is without <> marks.
02:50:12 <elliott> i'm going to fix my pretty-AST-printer now.
02:50:25 <Oklopol> I see what the problem is.
02:50:56 <Oklopol> Add is just the python (+) function, yes. That is not something that should be true.
02:51:06 <elliott> also, i'm trying qsort with demolishing now
02:51:48 <elliott> Oklopol: can you tell me why you are talking like this :x
02:55:02 <Oklopol> I don't have a reason, sorry.
02:55:35 <elliott> Oklopol: holy shit holy shit qs compiled
02:56:10 <elliott> now i'm gonna try and figure out how to fix my printer
02:56:26 <elliott> Oklopol: are you going to stop talking like that ever :(
02:57:27 <Oklopol> It is interesting that quicksort compiles, I don't see how it can with that bag.
02:58:12 <Oklopol> How can the element used as pivot ever get to the output?
02:58:41 <elliott> Oklopol: that's a mighty good point.
02:58:59 <elliott> | <<<{'#0': '#0'}>>><<<{'#1': '@(pivot left(car(#0) #0))', '#0': '#0'}>>>_ => add(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) @(pivot right(car(#0) #0)))
02:59:01 <elliott> ignore between <<< and >>>
02:59:06 <elliott> (note how mine avoids empty automatically :D)
02:59:19 <elliott> Oklopol: that's really weird
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03:01:42 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
03:01:49 <Oklopol> Eh, turns out it is smarter than me. It actually pivots the whole list by the first element, that that the pivot element itself goes on the right side.
03:01:57 <Oklopol> This way, it doesn't have to add it back.
03:02:04 <luatre> quicksort: [#0] | [] => #0 | _ => add(#1 @(pivot left(car(#0) #0)))
03:02:20 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded :(
03:02:30 <elliott> Oklopol: your quicksort, it is, mighty "efficient"
03:02:34 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded :(
03:03:04 <Oklopol> Well, the one given by luatre doesn't even call pivot right.
03:03:11 <elliott> Oklopol: no no that's a bug in the printer
03:03:18 <elliott> i fixed that in my local copy
03:03:23 <elliott> :. add(pivot left(1 [1]) pivot right(1 [1]))
03:03:29 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded :(
03:03:42 <elliott> back to fixing my printer and avoiding thinking about that
03:04:22 <elliott> Oklopol: so how fast does ski compile for you
03:04:32 <Oklopol> It occurs to me that that quicksort would be an infinite loop in any language.
03:04:39 <elliott> i think i'm going to turn destructing on (nice avoidance of the common terminology there btw) to make testing this easier :D
03:04:54 <elliott> Oklopol: insufficient hinting!
03:04:59 <elliott> Oklopol: often a problem with the branchless form
03:05:03 <Oklopol> Because it can never actually "use" a piece of the input.
03:05:19 <elliott> Oklopol: i'm starting to suspect the whole oklopol thing is one gigantic act
03:05:21 <Oklopol> I need to make it also return singletons directly.
03:05:23 <elliott> and you're actually a horribly
03:05:32 <elliott> why do you violate my life's constants
03:05:36 <Oklopol> Either that, or I'm fizzie.
03:06:04 <elliott> despite being in stockholm
03:06:06 <Oklopol> I don't think I've been that much like him.
03:06:12 <elliott> you've punctuated and capitalised
03:06:14 <elliott> and that's basically enough
03:06:36 <Oklopol> Anyway, let me get back to the code.
03:08:47 <elliott> Condition: ['is list?', '#0']
03:09:03 <elliott> deep first ~ {:. [[1, 2], 3] -> 1
03:09:11 <elliott> deep first ~ is list?; cons; car; cdr
03:10:03 <Oklopol> First argument, I suppose, although that's #0.
03:10:10 <elliott> Oklopol: well precisely...
03:10:15 <Oklopol> Really I don't understand how the numbering works at all.
03:10:21 <elliott> depth of first has the constant #0
03:10:27 <elliott> so right, yes, why haven't i handled that
03:13:08 <elliott> | _ => add(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) @(pivot right(car(#0) #0)))
03:13:10 <elliott> Oklopol: that's definitely the quicksort code.
03:13:35 <elliott> Oklopol: hey you know what clue should be able to do
03:13:41 <elliott> Oklopol: MUTUTALLY RECURSIVE FUNCTIONS
03:15:39 <Oklopol> Yes, it should be able to do those. In fact, didn't I mention adding support for that today?
03:16:02 <elliott> do you talk like this in real life
03:16:48 <elliott> Oklopol: so, challenge: write even? in clue
03:16:50 <elliott> handling positive and negative numbers
03:18:38 <Oklopol> It seems that quicksort works fine now.
03:18:51 <elliott> Oklopol: oh joy: [[clue.DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (even?)]]
03:18:56 <elliott> Oklopol: also, can i has the code?
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03:19:01 <Oklopol> By which I meant my Clue program was wrong.
03:19:22 * elliott changes the depth limit to 10 and tests :D
03:19:31 <Oklopol> Well, actually it turns out only lists of lenght 3 can be sorted.
03:19:31 <elliott> to be fair it is a _very_ complex condition i want
03:19:40 <elliott> Oklopol: insufficient testcases, man
03:19:52 <elliott> Oklopol: Clue, the only language where not testing enough actually breaks your program.
03:20:49 <elliott> Oklopol: i'm having a bit of trouble making a program with a complex conditional
03:21:08 <elliott> Oklopol: specifically, even? is basically this: "if x<0 then (if x==-2 then 1 else 0) else even?(x-2)"
03:21:15 <elliott> and i just can't see how to do that, even with multiple functions
03:21:56 <elliott> i can do it with compare to 0
03:22:45 <elliott> "[compare(#0,0)] | -1 => 0 | 0 => 1 | 1 => @(dec(dec(#0)))"
03:22:55 <Oklopol> The program IS STILL CONCEPTUALLY WRONG.
03:23:16 <olsner> conceptual wrongness exists in program!
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03:23:54 <Oklopol> You know what gave it away? Adding a third test case.
03:23:59 <Oklopol> : [1, 2, 3] -> [1, 2, 3] }
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03:24:24 <elliott> so i forgot to give positive even? #1 right
03:24:26 <elliott> [compare(#0 compare(#0 #0))]
03:24:32 <elliott> Oklopol: compare(0 dec(0))
03:24:36 <elliott> greatest way of writing 1 ever???
03:24:57 <elliott> Oklopol: here's what happens if i don't give it 0 either:
03:24:58 <elliott> [compare(#0 compare(#0 #0))]
03:24:59 <elliott> | 0 => compare(#0 dec(#0))
03:25:26 <Oklopol> Yeah nm, yes, that is fun.
03:25:27 <olsner> 0 defined as a number equaling its own predecessor?
03:25:39 <Oklopol> olsner: 0 is the python number 0.
03:25:47 <elliott> wtf i can't tab complete olsner
03:25:56 <elliott> olsner: no, compare() is <=>
03:26:00 <elliott> as in, -1 if <, 0 if =, 1 if >
03:26:09 <elliott> compare(x, x-1) is always 1
03:26:18 <elliott> so basically, Clue is a genius.
03:26:24 <oerjan> elliott: wait Oklopol is in stockholm? that clearly explains the change.
03:27:20 <oerjan> osnler is so hard to tab complete
03:27:51 <elliott> no seriously, it just doesn't let me :D
03:27:54 <olsner> why would I be hard to tab complete?
03:28:09 <oerjan> olsner: PROBABLY YOU'RE IN STOCKHOLM OR SOMETHING
03:28:18 <elliott> Oklopol: so here's a sane compilation of even?:
03:28:19 <elliott> | 1 => positive even?(negate(#0))
03:28:20 <oerjan> that is an explanation for _everything_
03:28:33 <elliott> Oklopol: but say i were to withhold is negative? from this program
03:28:37 <elliott> Oklopol: what does the genius of clue come up with?
03:28:43 <elliott> | 0 => positive even?(negate(#0))
03:29:01 <olsner> oerjan: probably not, but something could arbitrarily decide that my IP is in stockholm for whatever reason
03:29:38 <Oklopol> olsner: No, oerjan attributed my weird behavior to my being in Stockholm earlier.
03:29:53 <Oklopol> I'm not in Stockholm though.
03:29:55 <elliott> Oklopol: as a member of the Clue Standardisation Board, can I humbly suggest that we both rename "empty" to "empty?".
03:30:16 <elliott> Oklopol: are you sure, every predicate is getting "is" in front of it D
03:30:18 * oerjan somehow read that as the Clue Scandinavisation Board
03:30:26 <elliott> Oklopol: i mean sure but only if you actually make the change
03:30:55 <Oklopol> elliott: I'm not making any changes before quicksort works. I don't know why.
03:30:56 <olsner> Oklopol: isn't weird behaviour just normal behaviour when it comes to you?
03:31:08 <elliott> Oklopol: well, done in mine :P
03:31:16 <elliott> olsner: look at how he's fucking talking
03:31:33 <Oklopol> elliott: Okay, I don't exactly mind if your versions differ.
03:31:48 <elliott> Oklopol: i have a feeling you don't think much of elliottclue :)
03:31:51 <Oklopol> Maybe I'll do the change at some point.
03:31:53 <oerjan> elliott: You should just relax, I think.
03:32:13 <elliott> Oklopol: so uh, speaking of changes...constants in branchers? >_>
03:32:36 <elliott> Vorpal: http://0au.de/~apo/mario.png
03:32:41 <elliott> Vorpal: autoconverted, but still, :D
03:34:37 <hagb4rd> i'm sure you already have seen the enterprise [minecraft edition]? -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn2-d5a3r94 :>
03:34:49 <elliott> yes, like five years ago >:)
03:35:00 <elliott> Oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X32nuDEvw-4
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03:46:02 <hagb4rd> have you ever played brabens frontier elite? probably the best game ever.. travel our galaxy with a cute spaceship, trade, fight pirates..become elite! until now the only game you can land on planets without any loading screens! pretty nice physics..all that on one single floppy(!).. a masterpiece of work.. hope that there will be a sequel some day :/
03:46:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is an Elite fan.
03:46:15 <elliott> But everyone hates Frontier.
03:46:29 <elliott> Also, there _was_ a sequel.
03:46:36 <elliott> Also, everyone hates Braben. :p
03:47:06 <elliott> hagb4rd: Anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_First_Encounters
03:47:28 <hagb4rd> i wonder if there where all the pgogrammers are gone
03:47:54 <hagb4rd> yea i know that one, but its about 15years old or sth
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03:48:12 <elliott> Oklopol: so I wrote a clue repl... it lets you specify filenames on cmd line, prints all the asts at startup, lets you evaluate stuff in LuatreLang, lets you load new files, and lets you reload everything
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03:48:37 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_4
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03:50:11 <hagb4rd> how did he manage to fit all this stuff on one single floppy?
03:50:31 <hagb4rd> the old bastard should publish the code
03:50:39 <elliott> Procedural generation. Also, give more credit to Ian Bell; I imagine most of the procedural generation code Ian Bell had at least some part in.
03:50:59 <elliott> hagb4rd: I distinctly recall PH telling me that Braben litigated Bell into taking down the code to Elite.
03:51:11 <elliott> So a Frontier source release might happen, mm, approximately never.
03:51:34 <elliott> hagb4rd: Why bother, Asteroids II is better.
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03:52:09 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, I don't think it exists yet
03:53:05 <elliott> hagb4rd: It's a 2D Newtonian-physics-based shooter with full physics including gravity (with orbits!) and things like localised physics distortion (e.g. slow down speed of light in a bubble that enemy is approaching, circle around it quickly and fire bullets inside before they can get out).
03:53:21 <elliott> Being "worked on" very, very slowly by me and PH, whereby most time spent working on it is thumb-twiddling.
03:53:31 <elliott> I do want it to get finished, though.
03:53:43 <hagb4rd> where can i get your alpha?
03:53:55 <Oklopol> 46 seconds to compile quicksort helper, which hopefully was the hard part of quicksort
03:54:06 <elliott> But it's going to be a commercial game if it ever does get done, so, uh, pony up $(preorder price). :P
03:54:18 <elliott> (The release will come with full source code, allowing redistribution of modifications.)
03:54:45 <Sgeo> Is that how Minecraft works?
03:54:46 <elliott> (So modding is perfectly legal and permitted, as well as complete reworks, so long as you either don't distribute enough to reconstruct a large part of the entire game, or only distribute it to people you can reasonably verify own it.)
03:54:49 <elliott> hagb4rd: There _is no code_ right now.
03:54:51 <Sgeo> Releasing source to purchasers?
03:54:57 <elliott> Sgeo: No, Minecraft is just closed source.
03:55:01 <elliott> It's just that Java is very easy to disassemble.
03:55:10 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, there isn't even code for the programming language yet
03:55:15 <elliott> You get something very close to the original code minus names (and the modders are working on that).
03:55:22 <elliott> hagb4rd: All that has been written is gravity.lisp, which does 2D Newtonian mechanics with orbits.
03:55:25 <Oklopol> Even I have disassembled some Java code.
03:55:49 <elliott> hagb4rd: Because 3D Newtonian mechanics is considered rather unfun to fly in -- see Frontier ;-)
03:55:54 <elliott> hagb4rd: The actual game won't be written in Lisp probably.
03:56:05 <elliott> But it was what PH hacked up that in (it doesn't even have graphics, it just prints tables of numbers).
03:56:19 <elliott> But it's a proof that Oklopol was wrong enough, or how PH interpreted Oklopol was wrong enough, and it can work:P
03:56:21 <Sgeo> elliott, what dialect of Lisp?
03:56:33 <Oklopol> >>> funcs["quicksort"]([4, 2, 45, 2, 65, 45, 34, 34, 6 ,76])
03:56:33 <Oklopol> [2, 2, 4, 6, 34, 34, 45, 45, 65, 76]
03:56:37 <Sgeo> What was Oklopol wrong about?
03:56:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, Oklopol said that someone said that orbits don't form well in 2D or something.
03:56:54 <hagb4rd> must lurk into this procedural generetion stuff..
03:57:03 <elliott> Oklopol: see, with my luatre console, that's as simple as
03:57:10 <Oklopol> Can I see proof of orbits forming?
03:57:14 <elliott> Oklopol: quicksort([4 2 45 2 65 45 34 34 6 76])
03:57:24 <elliott> Oklopol: proof, err, not really, ph isn't online and i don't have the code, but
03:57:31 <hagb4rd> then call ian and get started with elite4
03:57:32 <Oklopol> elliott: How fun, now can I try this in your bot?
03:57:36 <elliott> Oklopol: basically the only problem was a drift over time, caused by setting dx too high
03:57:46 <Oklopol> Please make it run url-given code.
03:57:55 <elliott> Oklopol: and it would be low enough in a game
03:57:55 <Sgeo> Aren't there plenty of orbit simulators?
03:58:00 <Sgeo> Microsoft Encarta came with one
03:58:04 <elliott> Oklopol: as i said, i don't have the current code
03:58:12 <elliott> Sgeo: the point is getting orbits to form naturally with newtonian mechanics in 2d
03:58:32 <elliott> Oklopol: I might make luatre just an interface to the repl, tbh, but I'll hack it up right now.
03:59:02 <Oklopol> It would be nice to be able to give urls since Clue is sort of a verbose language.
03:59:12 <hagb4rd> nothin simpler then the newtonian mechanics
03:59:31 <Oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt
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03:59:58 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt
03:59:59 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
04:00:11 <Sgeo> What's the point of quicksort append?
04:00:17 <elliott> that was trying to evaluate that as a luatre expr
04:00:20 <Oklopol> Sgeo: It's a helper function.
04:00:34 <Oklopol> It's the kind of appending quicksort does after recursing.
04:00:54 <Oklopol> "quicksort helper" on the other hand has no clear meaning whatsoever.
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04:01:23 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt
04:01:35 <elliott> ...... http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt
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04:01:42 <hagb4rd> inertia, no friction thats all
04:02:02 <hagb4rd> its easier then jumpnrun.. i guess
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04:02:05 <Oklopol> I don't see what friction has to do with anything.
04:02:06 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1926614985.txt
04:02:07 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:02:07 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile pivot(<id>), inc twice(<id>), caaar pivot helper(<id>), make singleton(<id>), car pivot helper(<id>), quicksort helper(<id>), pivot condition 2(<id>), caaar with consed(<id>), cons to caaar(<id>), quicksort(<id>), greater than?(<id>), quicksort append(<id>), pivot left(<id>), triple(<id>), caaar(<id>), pivot right(<id>), cons to car(<id>), pivot condition(<id>), caar(<id>) :(
04:02:25 <elliott> Oklopol: your code is busy using the old busted clue 1.0 ;)
04:02:41 <elliott> Oklopol: i, uh, can't really think of a way to fix that that isn't a gigantic hack.
04:03:05 <elliott> Oklopol: Yeah, thankfully your program is still written in an identical fashion with <id> everywhere. :p
04:03:16 <hagb4rd> friction and gravity and impulse is the only counterforce to inertia in space Oklopol
04:03:17 <Sgeo> fuck you ~ {. [1] -> [2] . [1] -> [3] }
04:03:32 <Oklopol> Is http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2134133721.txt better?
04:03:42 <Sgeo> ^^I don't think that's syntactically right
04:03:51 <Sgeo> What are those raw numbers I see in the code for?
04:03:56 <hagb4rd> making things preatty simple
04:04:00 <Sgeo> Those are both arguments?
04:04:01 <elliott> everything is just an example invocation.
04:04:08 <Sgeo> Instead of single-argument functions, ok
04:04:13 <Sgeo> So my fuck you makes sense?
04:04:13 <Oklopol> ...... http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p2134133721.txt
04:04:15 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:04:15 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile pivot(pivot condition), quicksort helper(quicksort append), quicksort(length), quicksort append(append), pivot left(pivot), pivot right(pivot), pivot condition(empty) :(
04:04:15 <elliott> Sgeo: it is valid, but you want to drop the [] there prolly, and you need hints
04:04:34 <elliott> Oklopol: it's "is empty?" now :D
04:05:09 <elliott> :: fuck you ~ {. 1 -> 2 . 1 -> 3 } fuck you ~ inc; dec; #0; #1; compare
04:05:09 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fuck you) :(
04:05:26 <luatre> KeyError: 'quicksort' :(
04:05:49 <Sgeo> :: boring ~ {. 1 -> 2 . 1 -> 2 } fuck you ~ inc; dec; #0; #1; compare
04:05:49 <luatre> IndexError: list index out of range :(
04:05:52 <elliott> Oklopol: btw, why are inc/dec not called succ? also why isn't neg called negate >:)
04:06:01 <elliott> i kinda see clue as the language of the most verbose, useful names you can come up with, thanks to the spaces
04:06:12 <Sgeo> :: boring ~ {. 1 -> 2 . 1 -> 2 } boring ~ inc; dec; #0; #1; compare
04:06:12 <luatre> boring: [#0] | _ => inc(1)
04:06:15 <elliott> Oklopol: also shouldn't your greater than? be "is greater than?"
04:06:22 <elliott> Sgeo: you just need inc to do that. obviously.
04:06:24 <Oklopol> elliott: The way around the fact it's annoying to write "is empty?" will be that some sort of type information will usually tell the system what the contents of the bag should be.
04:06:36 <elliott> Sgeo: i was just giving fuck you a fighting chance with some nice functions.
04:06:42 <elliott> Oklopol: right. so shouldn't it be "is greater than?"
04:06:51 <elliott> Oklopol: and shouldn't neg be negate and sub subtract?
04:07:11 <elliott> Oklopol: you regressed thank you <3
04:07:13 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
04:07:26 <oklopol> ke, as they say in the land of the espanolas
04:07:33 <elliott> oklopol: i kinda miss Oklopol now, i have a feeling coherency is about to take a big dip :D
04:07:57 <elliott> oklopol: so um can I implement inc->succ; dec->pred in my impl sometime
04:07:58 <oklopol> i agree with all your naming stuff
04:08:06 <elliott> i don't have negate or subtract except in foo.clue
04:08:09 <elliott> which has them as negate and subtract
04:08:12 <elliott> maybe i should pre-load foo.clue
04:08:20 <oklopol> the names of things have annoyed me forever, but it's sooooo much work changing them
04:08:44 <oklopol> .:.:http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8579956286.txt
04:08:45 <elliott> oklopol: changed to is empty? yet?
04:08:51 <oklopol> .:.: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8579956286.txt
04:08:52 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:08:52 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile pivot(<id>), inc twice(<id>), caaar pivot helper(<id>), make singleton(<id>), car pivot helper(<id>), quicksort helper(<id>), pivot condition 2(<id>), caaar with consed(<id>), cons to caaar(<id>), quicksort(<id>), greater than?(<id>), quicksort append(<id>), pivot left(<id>), triple(<id>), caaar(<id>), pivot right(<id>), cons to car(<id>), pivot condition(<id>), caar(<id>) :(
04:09:39 <oklopol> what now? and also, i'd prefer having negate and abs in the stdlib. i see no point not to
04:10:00 <oklopol> remember, this is not a tarpit, it's a high-level language gone really wrong
04:10:55 <oklopol> i changed all the id's back already
04:11:41 <elliott> oklopol: also, negate and abs _are_ in my stdlib
04:11:50 <elliott> oklopol: just use python to do it
04:11:59 <elliott> oklopol: open('foo').read().replace('<id>; ','')
04:12:07 <elliott> oklopol: open('foonew').write(open('foo').read().replace('<id>; ',''))
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04:13:11 * elliott renames foo.clue -> std.clue
04:13:24 <elliott> gives you an STD on every use!
04:13:45 <elliott> oklopol: you might wanna s/dec/pred/ and inc to succ on your code while you remove <id>
04:13:50 <elliott> 'cuz i'm gonna take advantage of the moment
04:13:53 <oklopol> i added append as a primitive
04:13:55 <elliott> or would "predecessor" and "successor" be better :D
04:14:15 <Sgeo> Why does id have <> around its name?
04:14:15 <elliott> nah, i'll make it pred and succ
04:14:21 <elliott> Sgeo: old obsolete feature
04:14:25 <elliott> oklopol: and i'll implement append in the stdlib
04:14:48 <elliott> technically i could have backwards-compat here
04:14:53 <elliott> but then you'd never change your progs :D
04:14:55 <hagb4rd> "[..]However, Mr Braben said that the pair originally had some difficulty finding a publisher, despite the game being popular with their friends.
04:14:55 <hagb4rd> He said that the game was so different from traditional coin-operated games, not least because Elite did not actually have a score, that most publishers rejected it. 'They just didn't get it, they wanted a high score and they wanted players to have three lives' ..lol
04:15:35 <elliott> oklopol: btw i have greater than? in my stdlib
04:15:39 <elliott> i'll rename it "is greater than?"
04:15:52 <elliott> oklopol: i still think this verbose naming might be a mistake :D
04:16:23 <oklopol> well there could be shorthands as well.
04:16:36 <oklopol> if it's not clear what is meant, both are added to the bag!
04:16:50 <oklopol> that's the great thing about clue
04:16:56 <oerjan> abs should be absolute value, surely
04:17:20 <elliott> oklopol: after you get qs working can I eliminate , from arglists and lists too?
04:17:32 <oerjan> elliott: magnitude, then?
04:17:32 <oklopol> how about "The function that returns the absolute value of the number given as a parameter."
04:18:07 <elliott> "A function that returns the negation (the subtraction from zero) of its argument if it is less than zero, or the argument itself if it is greater than or equal to zero."
04:18:11 <oklopol> yes, ","'s should be removed
04:18:53 <oklopol> also what were the things i was supposed to do for the sourch
04:19:14 <Sgeo> How much of the stdlib is primitives, and how much is written in Clue?
04:19:49 <elliott> Sgeo: there are a handful of both
04:19:59 <oerjan> "It's clues all the way down!"
04:20:08 <elliott> that should be it for now i think
04:20:12 <oerjan> (IN AN ALTERNATE IDEAL UNIVERSE)
04:20:26 <HackEgo> 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 24) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 25) IN AN
04:20:31 <elliott> oklopol: so anyway, my append function is taking A VERY VERY LONG TIME
04:20:33 <Sgeo> What are the ... does TC-ness imply?
04:20:45 <Sgeo> Why did I just say imply? I meant.. make sense
04:21:01 <elliott> oh more hints sped it up :D
04:21:19 <elliott> | _ => cons(car(#0) @(cdr(#0) #0))
04:21:48 <oklopol> :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt
04:21:51 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:21:51 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile quicksort helper(quicksort append), quicksort(length), quicksort append(append) :(
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04:22:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: i imagine there is some function you cannot write in clue because no matter how many sample values you give there is _always_ a candidate function that works for those values and is easier to find. (note: i don't _really_ know how clue works.)
04:23:08 <elliott> oerjan: but is that function completeable
04:23:15 <oklopol> :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt
04:23:22 <elliott> oerjan: and remember that it only uses functions _you_ allow it to
04:23:30 <elliott> oklopol: what did you do to it.
04:23:50 <oklopol> oerjan: you can basically write imperative code
04:23:55 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
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04:24:07 <Sgeo> THE LOT OF YOU
04:24:10 <oklopol> it takes 46 seconds on my computer
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04:24:15 <elliott> oklopol: try when it comes back
04:24:18 <oklopol> and with your append, of course much more
04:24:31 <oklopol> because the function that takes 46 seconds is slow because it uses append so much
04:24:33 <oklopol> :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt
04:24:34 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:24:43 <elliott> if it takes 3 seconds i'll lol at your feeble computer
04:25:12 <oklopol> consider adding append as a primitive
04:25:19 <elliott> oklopol: consider FUCK YOU
04:25:24 <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness
04:25:39 <luatre> Exception: Can't compile quicksort(length) :(
04:25:43 <oerjan> oklopol: elliott: i sincerly hope you will make a clue wiki page
04:25:49 <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close a design goal, no
04:25:50 <elliott> i'll add append to std.clue
04:26:29 <oklopol> yeah i added a length function
04:26:32 <oklopol> as primitive, do you have it?
04:26:51 <oklopol> also make append check that its arg is not an integer
04:27:04 <elliott> oklopol: what does it do for integers
04:27:22 <elliott> oklopol: None the python object?
04:27:34 <elliott> well anyway reloading is broken SO
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04:27:36 <oklopol> oh it has a special meaning
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04:27:59 <elliott> oklopol: i haven't implemented that :)
04:28:02 <luatre> length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0)))
04:28:16 <oklopol> at some point, i'm going to add { . [1] -> ! }, that is, erroring out
04:28:35 <oklopol> as a primitive type system
04:28:39 <luatre> length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0)))
04:28:41 <luatre> length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0)))
04:28:42 <luatre> length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0)))
04:28:43 <luatre> length: [#0] | [] => 0 | [1 2 3] => succ(@(cdr(#0)))
04:28:43 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no
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04:28:44 <HackEgo> 262) <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no
04:28:50 -!- luatre has joined.
04:28:51 <luatre> length: [#0] | [] => 0 | _ => succ(@(cdr(#0)))
04:29:02 <oklopol> :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt
04:29:03 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:29:03 <elliott> oerjan: I _mentioned_ ability to run before that :P
04:29:16 <oklopol> "just a minute" is funny because it actually takes about a minute.
04:29:23 <elliott> caaar ~ {. [1, 3, 4] -> 4}
04:29:35 <elliott> oklopol: i suspect this will turn into "[#0] | _ => 4"
04:29:35 <oklopol> yeah it's not really caaar
04:29:46 <elliott> oklopol: i suspect this will turn into "[#0] | _ => 4"
04:29:50 <elliott> but yes, that is also true :P
04:30:10 <luatre> caaar pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to caaar(car(#0) #1)
04:30:10 <luatre> greater than?: [compare(#0 #1)] | 1 => 1 | -1 => 0 | 0 => 0
04:30:10 <luatre> car pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to car(car(#0) #1)
04:30:10 <luatre> pivot right: [#0] | _ => caaar(pivot(#0 #1))
04:30:10 <luatre> quicksort helper: [#0] | _ => quicksort append(#0 car(#1) #2)
04:30:11 <luatre> pivot condition 2: [greater than?(#0 car(#1))] | 0 => 2 | 1 => 3
04:30:11 <luatre> caaar: [#0] | _ => car(cdr(cdr(#0)))
04:30:12 <luatre> cons to caaar: [#0] | _ => triple(car(#1) caar(#1) caaar with consed(#0 #1))
04:30:12 <luatre> make singleton: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 [])
04:30:13 <luatre> quicksort: [length(#0)] | 0 => #0 | 1 => #0 | _ => quicksort helper(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) #0 @(pivot right(car(#0) cdr(#0))))
04:30:13 <luatre> quicksort append: [#0] | _ => append(#0 append(make singleton(#1) #2))
04:30:14 <luatre> pivot left: [#0] | _ => car(pivot(#0 #1))
04:30:14 <luatre> triple: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 cons(#1 make singleton(#2)))
04:30:14 <oklopol> how could it turn into that
04:30:15 <luatre> caaar with consed: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 caaar(#1))
04:30:24 <oklopol> in no way could it turn into that, #4 is not given
04:30:41 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
04:31:10 <oklopol> :. quicksort([5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245])
04:31:11 <luatre> [1 2 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 9 34 34 45 45 45 46 53 54 54 54 54 54 55 65 65 67 67 67 76 76 234 345 345 354 356 435 536 564 643 3467 5245 6356 6543 58678]
04:31:20 <elliott> it even runs in finite time!
04:31:22 <oklopol> it's great how the actual programs aren't slow at all
04:31:24 <elliott> WITHOUT blowing the stack!
04:31:37 <elliott> :. [5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245]
04:31:38 <luatre> [5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245]
04:31:43 <elliott> :. length([5 4 1 9 2 54 45 643 6 3 67 4 53 564 354 4 55 6 65 5 54 45 45 34 34 54 65 67 76 76 54 6356 345 6 3467 356 46 536 345 6543 6 435 67 58678 54 5 234 5245])
04:31:50 <elliott> oklopol: yeah anything that can sort a 48 second list in a second is amazing in my book :D
04:32:13 <oklopol> elliott: you aren't being sarcastic by any chance? :D
04:32:32 <elliott> you sounded very oerjan for that line
04:32:48 <elliott> oklopol: but yeah, p. amazing
04:32:52 <elliott> how come this actually works
04:32:57 <elliott> kinda...damaging my faith in languages?
04:33:16 <elliott> oklopol: isn't it the clue way that, after doing one sort, you don't need to do any more
04:33:23 <elliott> because a smart impl could just turn it into any sort it wants
04:33:30 <elliott> ergo i don't have to do that :D
04:33:33 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah probably i should write up a couple page spec
04:33:43 <elliott> oklopol: you've done fib right?
04:34:11 <elliott> oklopol: i'm very close to writing a clue mode for emacs
04:34:14 <elliott> just to do the fucking indentation for me
04:34:23 <oklopol> btw that quicksort should probably go in the stdlib.
04:34:41 <oklopol> although all the functions you made for it should be primitives imo :P
04:34:41 <elliott> oklopol: well. you see. i would. except the stdlib currently takes about a second to compile.
04:34:49 <elliott> yeah i might make them primitives ;x
04:35:04 <oklopol> what's wrong with stdlib taking a minute to compile? :D
04:35:36 <oklopol> oerjan: anyway with the tcness definition most people have, clue is tc because i made ski in it
04:36:02 * Sgeo goes to write a wrapper for the AW SDK in Clue
04:36:07 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3111652293.txt
04:36:08 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:36:09 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fib) :(
04:36:30 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p7621978181.txt
04:36:31 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:36:32 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fib) :(
04:37:31 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8721655922.txt
04:37:31 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:37:32 <luatre> fib: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => pred(#0)
04:38:36 <oklopol> this language really makes you think
04:38:41 <elliott> oklopol: i like how i TOLD it i was going to recurse
04:38:49 <elliott> nah man, this shit is easy
04:38:52 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8928373356.txt
04:38:52 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:38:52 <luatre> fib: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0))))
04:39:21 <oklopol> note that the problem is your algo
04:39:32 <elliott> oklopol: my algo looks right to me?
04:39:41 <oklopol> ":. fib(100)" taking forever
04:39:52 <elliott> i think i might kill the bot!
04:40:03 <oklopol> i'm just very protective of clue
04:40:11 <oklopol> so i had to tell that right away
04:40:40 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/usefulness/usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all' quotes
04:40:44 <elliott> i'ma internalise^Wprimitivise the functions now
04:40:53 <HackEgo> 262) <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no
04:41:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18966
04:41:07 <oklopol> maybe i'll write a real crappy page for clue now so you can then complain about it and i have to make it better
04:41:09 <elliott> oerjan: the way of the quote database is very subtle.
04:41:20 <oklopol> actually that sounds really hard
04:41:28 <elliott> oerjan: you missed the last / for instance >:)
04:41:40 <elliott> oklopol: oh man my machine is churning
04:41:49 <oklopol> elliott: fib 100 will never run
04:42:01 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/usefulness/usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all/' quotes
04:42:20 <elliott> oklopol: what should I make add([] []) be?
04:42:29 <elliott> do errors in testing make the test fail?
04:42:32 <elliott> if so that'd be beneficial
04:42:49 <elliott> oklopol: add([1 2] [3 4]), I want to stop it working
04:42:49 <oerjan> elliott: well i knew i was tempting fate with using sed -i at all :D
04:42:57 <oklopol> stop it working in what sense
04:42:58 <elliott> will raising an exception make all tests involving add on list "fail"?
04:43:03 <elliott> oklopol: stop it returning [1 2 3 4].
04:43:10 <oklopol> you return None, as i said
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04:43:15 <HackEgo> 262) <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no
04:43:24 <oklopol> that will not give you a None object in code
04:43:41 <oklopol> and it means test cases will fail, i guess that's what you wanna hear
04:43:56 <elliott> btw isinstance(a,int) fails for sufficiently big a
04:44:00 <elliott> and s/int/long/ works only for big a
04:44:43 <oerjan> > let fib = 1:1:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in fib!!100
04:44:44 <elliott> oklopol: length(0), None or 1?
04:45:04 <oklopol> length of numbers should be None
04:45:26 <oklopol> types will play a very important in clue 1.5
04:45:49 <oklopol> so let's try to separate the existing two types as much as possible
04:46:26 * elliott removes is even? from stdlib for now
04:46:52 <elliott> oklopol: i'm leaving is zero?, is negative?, and is greater than? in stdlib
04:46:57 <elliott> because they're... not performance-intensive
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04:47:13 <elliott> heh luatre died due to not responding to pings due to being lagged
04:47:27 <elliott> oklopol: wanna rename caaar to what it actually is and then link me to the qsort?
04:47:31 <elliott> i'll add it to my filesystem
04:47:36 <oerjan> is odd? should be called i don't even?
04:47:45 <elliott> what is this(i don't even?(42))
04:47:57 <elliott> oklopol: have you done fact
04:49:06 <oklopol> btw god esolanging is fun, why don't we do it more often :D
04:49:18 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p8325321461.txt
04:49:19 <elliott> code=reduce(lambda a,b:a+b,[i for i in code if i!=" "])
04:49:25 <elliott> oklopol: you realise that this doesn't remove newlines?
04:49:32 <elliott> or are they removed elsewher
04:50:09 <oklopol> newlines are not the same as spaces
04:50:29 <oklopol> they are the end marker of bags
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04:50:53 <oklopol> i don't really know the syntax...
04:51:13 <oklopol> "do like in these examples and it should work"
04:51:26 <elliott> oklopol: how many :s should comments be
04:51:38 <elliott> four? that's kinda nice since :: looks commenty
04:51:43 <elliott> or six, ::: looks the same
04:51:45 <elliott> and :: might be wanted for something
04:52:01 <elliott> yeah i'll make it six if that's okay
04:52:18 <oklopol> it would be nice if 5 was used as well then
04:52:25 <elliott> oklopol: well that's reserved for future expansion
04:52:57 <oklopol> are you actually adding :::?
04:53:08 <oklopol> you can just make it cut the rest of the line
04:54:09 <oklopol> oh god that exams gonna go baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
04:54:20 <oerjan> caaar (l) = we need to go deeper (3 l)
04:55:10 <oklopol> btw once ! is added, you can pretty much exactly write the code you want
04:55:29 <oklopol> well umm, hard to put it to words
04:55:40 <oklopol> but it has a similar role as a weird thing as it does in prolog
04:55:43 <oklopol> of course, completely different
04:55:54 <oklopol> but it's this sort of technical thing that can be used to guide searches
04:56:06 <elliott> ghetto_ast is ghetto no more, incorporated into clue.py itself
04:56:10 <oklopol> it's actually very natural in clue, but i just find that fun for some reason
04:56:32 <oklopol> also the meaning is actually kinda similar, "stop this branch of search"
04:56:44 <elliott> TODO: rename the luatre functions to something nicer, put in luatre.py
04:56:50 <elliott> (I've decided that the expression language is called luatre)
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04:57:26 <elliott> oklopol: put quicksort in again
04:57:39 <elliott> oklopol: while i work on a faster fib
04:58:07 <oklopol> :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt
04:58:08 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
04:58:14 <variable> how do I indicate an error in Haskell ?
04:58:24 <luatre> caaar pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to caaar(car(#0) #1)
04:58:24 <luatre> greater than?: [compare(#0 #1)] | 1 => 1 | -1 => 0 | 0 => 0
04:58:24 <luatre> car pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to car(car(#0) #1)
04:58:24 <luatre> pivot right: [#0] | _ => caaar(pivot(#0 #1))
04:58:24 <luatre> quicksort helper: [#0] | _ => quicksort append(#0 car(#1) #2)
04:58:24 <luatre> pivot condition 2: [greater than?(#0 car(#1))] | 0 => 2 | 1 => 3
04:58:24 <luatre> caaar: [#0] | _ => car(cdr(cdr(#0)))
04:58:25 <luatre> cons to caaar: [#0] | _ => triple(car(#1) caar(#1) caaar with consed(#0 #1))
04:58:25 <luatre> make singleton: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 [])
04:58:26 <oklopol> oerjan: would be nice except it's not a function
04:58:26 <luatre> quicksort: [length(#0)] | 0 => #0 | 1 => #0 | _ => quicksort helper(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) #0 @(pivot right(car(#0) cdr(#0))))
04:58:26 <luatre> quicksort append: [#0] | _ => append(#0 append(make singleton(#1) #2))
04:58:27 <luatre> pivot left: [#0] | _ => car(pivot(#0 #1))
04:58:32 <oerjan> > error "Message here"
04:58:39 <elliott> variable: error "foo" for simple stuff
04:58:55 * Sgeo wants a jetpack
04:58:59 <elliott> variable: you might also consider returning (Maybe resulttype) instead, or having (Either SomeErrorType resulttype)
04:59:00 <Sgeo> http://www.martinjetpack.com/
04:59:03 <elliott> variable: for API functions
04:59:21 <variable> elliott, nah - I need Error in this case :-}
04:59:22 <elliott> "The Martin Jetpack is a experimental aircraft. Its tradename calls it a "jet pack", but is not jet- or rocket-powered."
04:59:34 <oklopol> elliott: consider printing compilation time btw, i find it very interesting at least
04:59:48 <oerjan> variable: it's just that error and friends can only be caught in the IO monad
04:59:56 <oklopol> can someone make a disambiguation page? :P
05:00:19 <oerjan> while Either and Maybe can be analyzed by pure functions
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05:00:47 <oklopol> when clue was young, i remember ais523 saying "yay, we get our first disambiguation page"
05:01:02 <oerjan> variable: also there is undefined for when you don't even want to give a message
05:01:06 <elliott> oklopol: should keymaker's lang be "Clue (Keymaker)" or "Clue (2009)"
05:01:14 <elliott> the former is more disambiguous, the latter...nicer?
05:01:18 <variable> oerjan, does error exit the program? or does it continue going....
05:01:21 <elliott> in fact clue oklopol has no defined creation date i guess
05:02:13 <elliott> oklopol: clue was invented 2010—2011?
05:02:49 <oklopol> it's hard to say when it became a distinct language, all the ideas were there much before
05:02:59 <elliott> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue
05:03:02 <oerjan> variable: it exits unless you catch it from IO
05:03:54 <oklopol> maybe i should call clue clue++, add km's clue commands, and say clue++ is an extension of clue
05:04:18 <oklopol> now all i need to do is actually write something
05:04:34 <oklopol> :..: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt
05:04:35 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
05:04:51 <luatre> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'float' objects :(
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05:05:17 <variable> elliott, http://pastebin.com/PETSzuE1 --> something is obviously wrong
05:05:18 <variable> unn.hs:6:12: parse error on input `<-'
05:05:24 <Sgeo> elliott, you should have oved it
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05:05:39 <oklopol> maybe for all the syntax things, there could be a verbose command as well, but uppercase: "!" = CUT IT OUT, ":." = "RECURSION BRACH", ":" = SUBBRANCH
05:05:48 <oerjan> variable: essentially haskell has two kinds of error responses, the ones like error, undefined and throw (with more advanced exception options) that don't show up in your expression type but which exit and can only be caught in IO at most, and the other kind like Maybe and Either which show up in your expression type (usually as a monad wrapper) and don't exit but the result needs to be analyzed by the caller
05:05:55 <elliott> variable: also Maybe isn't a value
05:05:57 <Sgeo> Didn't see that the Talk page was in fact on Clue (Keymaker)
05:06:01 <elliott> so i have no clue whet you were trying to do now
05:06:24 <variable> elliott, I need parseUnn to return either "
05:06:34 <variable> an error or "" depending whether the file exists
05:06:54 <elliott> if fileExists then error "Oh no."
05:07:13 <elliott> your current function would need {return ""} as well as the fix for Maybe
05:07:15 <elliott> and you'd have to putStr it
05:07:18 <elliott> but that would be exceedingly pointless
05:07:40 <Sgeo> Someone should put a Network Headache server back up
05:08:06 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:08:11 <Sgeo> I wonder if Network Headache could be made to work serverlessly
05:10:17 <elliott> 05:04 luatre: TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'float' objects :(
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05:10:33 <elliott> try _now_ when it comes back
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05:10:41 <variable> elliott, http://pastebin.com/fLwG6dzU -> now I'm getting incorrect indentation
05:11:18 <variable> { also I have new idea for a language: similar to python - except that it enforces a *horid* indentation pattern :-))
05:11:52 <oerjan> variable: indent the else
05:11:55 <elliott> variable: um yes, then and else must be at the same level
05:11:58 <elliott> oerjan: better: separate the then
05:12:01 <elliott> put a new line and two spaces before then
05:12:16 <variable> elliott, ah then & else. I was aligning the if and else :-)
05:12:29 <oerjan> well then and else don't _need_ to be at the same level, but that may be best
05:12:35 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3599837528.txt
05:12:36 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
05:12:36 <luatre> Compiled in 0.0620181560516 seconds
05:12:36 <luatre> slow fibonacci: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0))))
05:12:36 <luatre> fibonacci: [#0] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(#0 0 1)
05:12:36 <luatre> fast fibonacci loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) #2 add(#1 #2))
05:12:43 <elliott> oklopol: this fibonacci function is VERY fast
05:12:44 <variable> I put the then on a new line now :-}
05:12:45 <luatre> 354224848179261915075L
05:12:47 <luatre> OverflowError: long int too large to convert to int :(
05:12:53 <oklopol> did you implement ::: already?
05:13:17 <elliott> oklopol: i'm going to go fix all the functions to not use int() now
05:13:24 <oerjan> variable: technically it's not that else needs to be aligned with anything, but it _cannot_ be aligned with the do statements since it isn't a statement of its own
05:13:34 <elliott> oklopol: i'll use, uh, long() or something... or maybe maybeintmaybelong()
05:13:35 <oklopol> i'll put ::: on the wiki then
05:13:47 <elliott> oklopol: anyway feed it quicksort again
05:14:23 <oerjan> variable: this actually is being tweaked in the newest haskell standard i think because it trips up so many people
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05:15:08 <elliott> oklopol: feed it qs again dammit :D
05:15:11 <elliott> it'll print compilation time
05:15:15 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3599837528.txt
05:15:16 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
05:15:16 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (fast fibonacci loop) :(
05:15:27 <variable> elliott, two more questions a) how do I go thru all the command line arguments b) how do I get the *number* of command line arguments
05:15:29 <elliott> oklopol: your depth limit is too low
05:16:03 <oerjan> <variable> { also I have new idea for a language: similar to python - except that it enforces a *horid* indentation pattern :-)) <-- that is one of my design goals for my (mostly vaporware) language Reaper
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05:16:30 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3599837528.txt
05:16:31 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
05:16:31 <luatre> Compiled in 0.0681719779968 seconds
05:16:31 <luatre> slow fibonacci: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0))))
05:16:31 <luatre> fibonacci: [#0] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(#0 0 1)
05:16:31 <luatre> fast fibonacci loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) #2 add(#1 #2))
05:16:37 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :(
05:16:53 <luatre> 354224848179261915075L
05:16:55 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :(
05:16:57 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :(
05:17:00 <luatre> 222232244629420445529739893461909967206666939096499764990979600L
05:17:08 <elliott> oklopol: apart from your impl being kinda sucky, that fibonacci is stupid fast :P
05:17:09 <variable> oerjan, , two more questions a) how do I go thru all the command line arguments b) how do I get the *number* of command line arguments
05:17:21 <elliott> variable: mapM_ to go through command arguments
05:17:35 <elliott> number is just (length args) obviously
05:17:50 <elliott> variable: if you've done "args <- getArgs"
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05:18:09 <elliott> oklopol: fine I'll feed it qs
05:18:10 <variable> now - once I bind args - how do I get out of the "do"
05:18:17 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt
05:18:17 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
05:18:19 <variable> I don't need to be in an IO thing anymore
05:18:26 <variable> I want to go back to pure functional
05:18:29 <elliott> variable: um, you can't, what do you mean
05:18:32 <elliott> variable: just call purely-functional functions
05:18:39 <elliott> and do something with them
05:18:45 <elliott> print (somePurelyFunctionalThing 42)
05:18:47 <luatre> Compiled in 14.6956260204 seconds
05:18:48 <luatre> caaar pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to caaar(car(#0) #1)
05:18:48 <luatre> cons to car: [#0] | _ => cons(cons(#0 car(#1)) cdr(#1))
05:18:48 <luatre> triple: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 cons(#1 make singleton(#2)))
05:18:48 <luatre> quicksort helper: [#0] | _ => quicksort append(#0 car(#1) #2)
05:18:48 <luatre> pivot condition 2: [greater than?(#0 car(#1))] | 0 => 2 | 1 => 3
05:18:48 <luatre> caaar with consed: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 caaar(#1))
05:18:49 <luatre> cons to caaar: [#0] | _ => triple(car(#1) caar(#1) caaar with consed(#0 #1))
05:18:49 <luatre> make singleton: [#0] | _ => cons(#0 [])
05:18:50 <luatre> quicksort: [length(#0)] | 0 => #0 | 1 => #0 | _ => quicksort helper(@(pivot left(car(#0) #0)) #0 @(pivot right(car(#0) cdr(#0))))
05:18:50 <luatre> caar: [#0] | _ => car(cdr(#0))
05:18:51 <luatre> quicksort append: [#0] | _ => append(#0 append(make singleton(#1) #2))
05:18:51 <luatre> pivot left: [#0] | _ => car(pivot(#0 #1))
05:18:52 <luatre> car pivot helper: [#0] | _ => cons to car(car(#0) #1)
05:19:08 <variable> elliott, erm - I need to get the number of arguments **before** I do args <-
05:19:09 <elliott> oh wait, that is a slightly old one
05:19:17 <elliott> variable: no, you don't, and that's patently impossible
05:19:17 <variable> otherwise haskell outputs an error
05:19:27 <elliott> variable: where do you use the arguments?
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05:20:30 <variable> elliott, meh - I made a mistake
05:20:41 <variable> before I had (fileName:_) which caused an error with 0 arguments
05:21:12 <elliott> _ -> error "you used it wrong, idiot!"
05:21:18 <elliott> rather than mucking about with length etc.
05:22:35 <oerjan> variable: or possibly [] -> error "you used it wrong, idiot!" as the first option if you want to allow more than one filename
05:22:40 <elliott> oklopol: can you do constants for branchers already
05:22:48 <oerjan> [] -> error "you used it wrong, idiot!"
05:22:55 <elliott> _ -> mapM_ processArg args
05:23:04 <oklopol> elliott: will you remove the commas btw?
05:23:14 <oklopol> because i'll make that official if
05:23:52 <elliott> oklopol: if you remove them from qsort :P
05:24:16 <oklopol> i can remove them from quicksort and ski, sure
05:24:26 <elliott> oklopol: i'll give you my latest ski
05:24:52 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1739965483.txt
05:25:02 <oerjan> variable: incidentally it is generally considered bad form to use length to check whether a list is empty, since that works badly when you want computation to be as lazy as possible, especially with empty lists
05:25:19 <oerjan> *especially with infinite lists
05:25:40 <elliott> oklopol: oh, this might be an issue
05:25:46 <elliott> oklopol: you kinda strip spaces
05:25:49 <elliott> which become the only separators
05:26:02 <elliott> oklopol: shall i uh redesign the parser :D
05:26:25 <oerjan> in fact even using list == [] is considered bad form because that needlessly forces the element type to be comparable for equality
05:26:57 <elliott> yeah infinite cmd line args
05:27:18 <oerjan> elliott: well i'm just trying to prevent him from getting into bad habits
05:28:33 <oerjan> that's the function to use, although it's usually even better if you can use pattern matching
05:28:41 <variable> oerjan, I'm a little confused now: how do I return from a function that an error occurred? Just, Maybe ?
05:29:12 <elliott> oklopol: i think i fixed it
05:29:29 <elliott> oklopol: do you want my current interP?
05:29:31 <variable> oerjan, Nothing is an error ? I was using it to say that nothing needs be done - should I return () for that?
05:29:43 <elliott> variable: data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing
05:29:49 <elliott> variable: imagine the result of a hash table lookup
05:29:53 <elliott> if an element is there, you would return (Just value)
05:30:12 <oerjan> variable: hm if you aren't actually returning a value in either case, maybe it would better to use Bool
05:30:14 <elliott> note that obviously if you return Nothing somewhere you have to return Nothing or (Just x) everywhere
05:30:19 <elliott> otherwise you'd be stepping outside Maybe
05:30:35 <oklopol> i want your interp once i've written a crappy version of the spec
05:30:37 <elliott> oerjan: he's already wrapping doesFileExist
05:30:38 <variable> oerjan, the weird thing in this case is that I need to return nothing except on error
05:31:32 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => (a -> m Bool) -> [a] -> m [a]
05:31:35 <elliott> variable: runProg filename = do exists <- doesFileExist filename; if exists then error "Oh no!" else return (); main = do args <- getArgs; case args of [] -> error "Oh no!"; _ -> mapM_ runProg args
05:31:37 <variable> oerjan, http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Unnecessary --> Writing a compiler for this
05:32:07 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
05:32:15 <variable> elliott, I had that - but then the compiler exits after the first bad file name
05:32:27 <elliott> variable: ah, you do not want that?
05:32:50 <variable> elliott, no - I want it to go thru every given file name and report failure of any of them
05:32:56 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
05:32:56 <lambdabot> Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
05:32:56 <lambdabot> Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
05:32:57 <lambdabot> Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
05:33:11 <elliott> variable: don't use error, then
05:33:19 <variable> elliott, just return a plain string?
05:33:37 <elliott> main = getArgs >>= filterM doesFileExist >>= mapM_ (\bad -> putStrLn "Oh no! " ++ bad ++ " exists!")
05:33:48 <elliott> variable: I would use putStrLn directly
05:33:50 <oklopol> ==...== is a section, can i make a subsection kinda thing
05:33:51 <elliott> since you're in IO already
05:34:07 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:34:11 <oklopol> everything else someone else will have to fic
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05:34:16 <elliott> oklopol: commas removed, plz2be qsort and ski
05:34:50 <elliott> oklopol: so it's 5:34 am and i blame you
05:35:48 <elliott> Vorpal: oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Ambience oh holy fucking shit i had no idea this exists
05:36:05 <oerjan> elliott: i think it would have become 5:34 am eventually regardless
05:37:06 <variable> elliott, http://pastebin.com/8SRWxGm4 this is what I have so far. If I add putStrLn before parseUnn it fails; if uncomment the commented line it fails
05:37:11 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PA2uLm8ups jesus fucking christ this is terrifying
05:37:27 <elliott> variable: ok well, that is wrong
05:37:46 <elliott> variable: right, okay, firstly
05:37:50 <elliott> so you need to have -> IO String
05:37:51 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:38:15 <elliott> variable: "putStrLn parseUnn" fails because parseUnn isn't a string :)
05:38:34 <elliott> variable: mapM_ (\filename -> parseUnn filename >>= putStrLn) fileNames would work
05:38:42 <elliott> oerjan should not respond with fancy monad operators now
05:38:51 <elliott> variable: I would s/return/putStrLn/ in parseUnn
05:39:02 <elliott> variable: and note that putStrLn "" will print a blank line -- use return () instead
05:39:09 <variable> cause I want to learn the functional method of doing things
05:39:18 <elliott> variable: the functional method of doing things is not done in IO :-) but okay
05:39:29 <elliott> variable: well... add \n to the end of the error string
05:39:41 <elliott> then s/putStrLn/putStr/ in the line that i said would work but is ugly
05:39:47 <Sgeo> A song got stuck in my head
05:39:47 <variable> elliott, the goal of this isn't to get it done. I did it in bash, perl, ruby, etc already - its to learn the language
05:39:54 <Sgeo> It contains more than my usual amount of swearing
05:40:07 <coppro> variable: try to one-line project euler problems in haskell
05:40:10 <elliott> variable: well, the whole operation of Unnecessary is basically IO.
05:40:19 <elliott> if FILE EXISTS, ok, if not, PRINT AN ERROR
05:40:25 <elliott> variable: so it is hard to suggest a functional way to do this :)
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05:41:01 <oerjan> variable: although it _is_ possible to use higher-order monadic functions like filterM and mapM
05:41:07 <variable> coppro, I will - I've already done a few of them though
05:41:39 <oerjan> <elliott> main = getArgs >>= filterM doesFileExist >>= mapM_ (\bad -> putStrLn "Oh no! " ++ bad ++ " exists!")
05:41:55 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> b) -> (c -> m a) -> c -> m b
05:41:55 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Quote dataToQa :: Data a => (Name -> k) -> (Lit -> Q q) -> (k -> [Q q] -> Q q) -> (b -> Maybe (Q q)) -> a -> Q q
05:43:11 <elliott> oklopol: hihi are you converting
05:43:25 <elliott> oklopol: holy fucking shit
05:43:26 <elliott> oklopol: http://i.imgur.com/iJ2eG.jpg
05:43:30 <elliott> i am gonna rip his head off :D
05:45:46 <oerjan> i distinctly recall @more working once upon a time
05:45:57 <oerjan> @hoogle (a -> b) -> (c -> m a) -> c -> m b
05:45:57 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Quote dataToQa :: Data a => (Name -> k) -> (Lit -> Q q) -> (k -> [Q q] -> Q q) -> (b -> Maybe (Q q)) -> a -> Q q
05:46:21 <oerjan> just in case someone else had got a command in in #haskell or such
05:46:51 <oerjan> elliott: well it's fmap/liftM + <=< of course
05:47:00 <oerjan> but it may not have a single function for it
05:47:22 <elliott> oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
05:48:00 <oerjan> :t (\f x -> fmap f . x)
05:48:01 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f a) -> f1 (f b)
05:49:10 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
05:49:20 <oerjan> lambdabot still defines (.) = fmap :D
05:49:31 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
05:49:39 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:49:47 <elliott> oerjan: but yes, of course it defines (.) = fmap, as specified by the Caleskell Report
05:50:18 <oerjan> elliott: your function is just (.)(.) with that notation >:)
05:50:27 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => f1 (a -> b) -> f1 (f a -> f b)
05:51:20 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)
05:51:43 <oerjan> indeed it _is_ fmap fmap fmap
05:52:03 <elliott> fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
05:52:26 <oerjan> elliott: that reiterates after four fmaps
05:53:03 <oerjan> well eventually. i don't quite recall if it's immediately.
06:01:15 <elliott> oerjan: make oklopol a human
06:01:54 <oerjan> a recall reading somewhere that needing to sleep is a distinctly human characteristic
06:02:10 <elliott> he was working on the wiki page
06:03:33 <oerjan> well he hasn't saved the page
06:04:52 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29
06:05:33 <oklopol> i tried to make it roughly correct, but didn't really aim for readability or completeness.
06:05:41 <oklopol> you can fix the formatting
06:06:05 <oerjan> oklopol: you will be mercilessly haunted by graue for creating a new category. well, if he gave any sign of being alive, that is.
06:06:32 <oerjan> or perhaps not being alive would help with the haunting
06:07:04 <oklopol> anyway, does that make sense to elliott after already knowing the language?
06:07:19 <elliott> oklopol: have you converted qs or ski
06:07:30 <elliott> oklopol: don't call them commands
06:07:33 <elliott> that's too impure for clue
06:07:50 <oklopol> they didn't really have a name, so i just chose a consistent naming for the purpose of writing that.
06:08:05 <oklopol> a clue is the set of stuff defining a single function
06:08:09 <elliott> oklopol: i'll completely rewrite that, _tomorrow_
06:08:28 <elliott> oklopol: now gimme ski and qs without commas
06:08:43 <elliott> oklopol: based on this ski http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p1739965483.txt
06:09:03 <variable> elliott, \filename what is that syntax called?
06:09:09 <oklopol> i suppose an example should actually be a single [1] -> [2] thingie
06:09:14 <elliott> variable: lambda... it's (\args -> value)
06:09:23 <oklopol> but then i need a name for { ... }
06:09:37 <elliott> oklopol: i'm wondering whether removing commas is actually nice
06:09:52 <oklopol> well i haven't seen code with that, it's just something i've been wanting to have
06:10:14 <elliott> oklopol: do it to qs and a decision can be made
06:10:42 <oklopol> quicksort ~ {. [1] -> [1] . [2] -> [2] }
06:10:42 <oklopol> quicksort ~ {:. [4 2 3 1] -> [1 2 3 4]
06:10:43 <oklopol> :. [2 5 4 1 5] -> [1 2 4 5 5]
06:10:46 <oklopol> quicksort ~ length; cdr; car; pivot left; pivot right; quicksort helper
06:10:47 <oklopol> you tell me that's not elegant as shit
06:10:49 <variable> Couldn't match expected type `IO b'
06:10:50 <variable> against inferred type `[String] -> IO ()'
06:10:54 <variable> _ -> mapM_ (\filename -> parseUnn filename >>= putStrLn)
06:11:07 <coppro> oklopol: what is this supposed to be?
06:11:14 <elliott> oklopol: so um just want to check, we are standardising on my impl right :p
06:11:26 <elliott> since... it's incompatible with yours on just about every program now
06:11:28 <coppro> oklopol: well obviously
06:11:38 <coppro> but what's with the funny syntax?
06:11:54 <elliott> coppro: it's clue, if you don't understand it
06:11:55 <variable> elliott, what am I doing wrong with that?
06:11:59 <elliott> i guess you're mentally retarded cuz
06:12:07 <oklopol> elliott: yes, removal of <> will be in clue 1.0 if that's okay by you
06:12:12 <elliott> variable: you forgot to provide the list at the end
06:12:20 <elliott> oklopol: 1.0? don't you mean 1.5
06:12:30 <oklopol> oh i forgot to credit myself, which i obviously want to do
06:12:35 <elliott> oklopol: but i also mean the renaming of funcs and stuff
06:12:45 <oklopol> coppro: the syntax isn't funny
06:12:48 <elliott> oklopol: can we call what i have clue 1.25 or at least close to it :p
06:12:51 <coppro> oklopol: what language?
06:12:55 <elliott> yeah the syntax isn't the funny part of clue
06:12:57 <variable> elliott, oh - I'm an idiot :-}
06:13:01 <oklopol> elliott: can't we just call it clue 1.0?
06:13:08 <elliott> oklopol: but what you had was clue 1.0
06:13:13 <elliott> i've been thinkin' of this as clue 1.25
06:13:15 <oklopol> but the changes are tiny :\
06:13:26 <elliott> oklopol: but it's also the OPTIMISATION
06:13:36 <elliott> oklopol: clue 1.5 is when we get constants in branches, I know that much :)
06:13:45 <elliott> oklopol: aww c'mon, let me have the 1.25 version number
06:13:49 <oklopol> OR the sensible branching system
06:14:13 <elliott> oklopol: what's a sensible system
06:14:48 <variable> elliott, http://pastebin.com/zVZnPNHj - final version
06:14:52 <oklopol> elliott: the one we designed with ilkka, or mostly i defined
06:15:08 <elliott> oklopol: because i like the current system a lot
06:15:12 <oklopol> instead of having one branching function, separate things one at a time.
06:15:34 <elliott> oklopol: that sounds like clue 2.0 to me anyway, not 1.5
06:15:40 <oklopol> if you find something that's true for a certain subset of examples, but not the other ones, first branch on that
06:16:08 <elliott> oklopol: theoretically that can be done already
06:16:12 <elliott> oklopol: if you have add in the bag
06:16:13 <variable> coppro, what is with the wut ?
06:16:20 <elliott> oklopol: since it can do addition of booleans... and also other stuff :)
06:16:24 <elliott> oklopol: like multiplication of booleans!
06:16:29 <elliott> just cons them into a list
06:16:36 <elliott> oklopol: should improper lists be allowed
06:16:59 <oklopol> elliott: no, they should not
06:17:14 <oklopol> there can be a tree type in the stdlib tho
06:17:31 <elliott> oklopol: can we ditch _? it can easily be coded in two lines
06:17:39 <elliott> and post-<>-removal it's basically never ever useful ever
06:18:04 <oklopol> you're like the secretary i've been talking about getting that does all the trivial stuff for me because i can't be assed
06:18:10 <variable> elliott, I have a new languag. You define a set of functions and set of conditionals for those functions. There is only global state and functions never make calls. instead once a function is started it goes to completion. When a functions completes the compiler chooses randomly from the set of functions whose conditionals are true
06:18:11 <oklopol> how much do you want me to pay ya
06:18:21 <elliott> oklopol: 0, i find this fun
06:18:41 <elliott> oklopol: well you can pay me £1000/day if you really want
06:18:43 <elliott> cheater00: not available here.
06:18:52 <elliott> cheater00: i'm planning on switching to bogons.net...
06:18:58 <cheater00> i wonder if i can reprogram my bebox to work with other isps
06:19:33 <elliott> cheater00: just buy a linksys
06:19:39 <elliott> all other routers are shit
06:19:48 <oklopol> someone should really fix "Quicksort: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt SKI: Well I don't have the link at hand but anyway."
06:19:59 <oklopol> and add corrected qs there
06:20:08 <variable> new language -- define a set of functions and set of conditionals for those functions. There is only global state and functions never make calls or exit early. instead once a function is started it goes to completion. When a functions completes the compiler chooses randomly from the set of functions whose conditionals are true
06:20:09 <elliott> oklopol: i will fix qs and ski i guess
06:20:18 <elliott> variable: it's like clue but worse! :)
06:20:24 <cheater00> someone should really fix """<oklopol> someone should really fix "Quicksort: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6825816189.txt SKI: Well I don't have the link at hand but anyway." """
06:20:44 <oklopol> variable: it's like thue but worse
06:20:58 <elliott> it's like intercal but worse
06:21:42 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: i will fix qs and ski i guess" <<< thank you, although i did it already
06:21:43 <elliott> oklopol: can i convert windows line endings to unix on all these files :D
06:21:48 <elliott> unless you code with notepad i guess (wordpad can do it)
06:21:49 <oklopol> assuming it was just commas
06:22:38 <oklopol> can you put them on the wiki AND link them here
06:22:56 <elliott> i'll even put them on a wiki page, not vjn
06:23:27 <elliott> oklopol: you forgot to mention how : = ..
06:23:36 <oklopol> that's like the most important part!
06:24:36 <cheater00> oklopol: you are the weakest link.
06:26:40 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:26:59 <oklopol> elliott: i added that information on the page, in its rightful spot.
06:27:00 <Sgeo> There is a spammer on the wiki... posting nice but irrelevent stuff. Not a singe link
06:27:13 <Sgeo> "You certainly have some agreeable opinions and views. Your blog provides a fresh look at the subject."
06:28:34 <oklopol> or maybe that should be mentioned first
06:28:50 <elliott> oklopol: it's approaching 7 am so i'm going to sleep soon, but yeah, clue
06:29:16 <elliott> oklopol: possibly your crowning achievement as far as esolangs go
06:29:28 <elliott> oh sure the others have more interesting "theoretical" bases
06:29:34 <elliott> but do they obsolete the notion of programming itself?!
06:29:49 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.txt oh my god what is this, Clue 0.1?
06:30:15 <elliott> oklopol: i actually kind of like it XD
06:30:29 <elliott> oklopol: i have a suggestion
06:30:44 <elliott> then the bag becomes like... "things you need"
06:30:56 <elliott> oklopol: will implement :P
06:31:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: one theory is that such spammer bots are trying to put their links in some form field which doesn't actually exist
06:31:33 <oklopol> WHAT ELSE SHOULD IT HAVE TELMMETELMMEE :D
06:31:46 <oerjan> so that they don't show up in the resulting edit
06:31:55 <elliott> oklopol: BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS
06:32:13 <elliott> oklopol: stuff_to_clue what is this what what what
06:32:34 <elliott> ah tknz_helper_list looks useful
06:33:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:33:35 <oklopol> okay it seems it does something more than that
06:34:21 <elliott> you don't even mention helper objects in the article btw
06:34:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: if you google that "You certainly have some agreeable opinions and views" phrase you will find that the spam is also in comments on some sites that are not wikis at all
06:34:54 <oklopol> as i said, didn't really aim for completeness, but yeah those should certainly be mentioned
06:35:24 <Sgeo> Found one.. it links to website
06:35:26 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:35:29 <Sgeo> http://website/
06:35:42 <Sgeo> http://www.knowyouaregod.com/blog/2010/03/27/13/
06:36:08 <elliott> oklopol: this is the greatest language
06:36:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: it could be that is also just something being put in the wrong format for a field?
06:36:26 <elliott> oklopol: i just wish, you know, coding in it didn't suck, because i'd totally use it for everything :D
06:37:03 <Sgeo> Ah, here the spammers suceeded: http://www.universities-in-europe.com/7-unconventional-ways-to-pay-for-a-college-education.html
06:37:11 <elliott> oklopol: so have you ever used emacs
06:37:30 * Sgeo falls in love with Clue
06:37:39 <oklopol> i think i've kinda used it a bit, at some point, but not really a relevant amount.
06:37:58 <elliott> oklopol: if it had it so that if you changed the name of a clue function, all the lines in the branch would automatically get re-aligned
06:38:01 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about Clue!
06:38:05 <elliott> how much more perfect would your life be
06:38:32 <elliott> oklopol: IS THAT "ENTIRELY" I HEAR
06:38:38 <elliott> i believe i specifically forbade entirely as an answer
06:38:51 <elliott> oklopol: why does stuff.py exist btw, it's not like clue.py isn't 700 lines :D
06:39:41 <oklopol> it's not like there's any kind of logical separation
06:40:09 <oklopol> i just felt like things should be in multiple files because that's how adults code
06:40:23 <elliott> i'm a big boy now and i'm going to use multiple files
06:41:41 <elliott> oklopol: should...multiplication be in the stdlib
06:41:43 <Sgeo> I think PSOX was my only multi-file project thus far
06:41:44 <oklopol> mutual recursion is going to be a very big step, and i have no idea what the nice way to do it is
06:41:57 <elliott> mutual recursion is clue 1.75 isn'tit
06:42:04 <Sgeo> I was almost certainly under .. wai
06:42:06 <oklopol> there's no reason to make things slow just for the sake of making them slow
06:42:13 <Sgeo> Was about to say under 18, but I must have been 18
06:42:18 <oerjan> Sgeo: in fact i vaguely recall reading that one antispam technique is to include an invisible form field which _only_ bots would fill out, as a honeypot
06:42:27 <elliott> oklopol: call it "multiply"?
06:42:52 <oklopol> also divide, and make it fail if result is not int! :P
06:43:01 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's very sensible
06:43:16 <Sgeo> I can efel myself barely abl to type
06:43:24 <Sgeo> just staring at the screen numbly
06:43:28 <Sgeo> I don't know wh
06:43:38 <elliott> | 4 => multiply(#0 @(pred(#0)))
06:43:46 <elliott> factorial(4) doesn't even result in 24
06:43:58 <elliott> factorial ~ multiply; pred; 1
06:44:00 <luatre> ValueError: unknown url type: factorial(10) :(
06:44:02 <elliott> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'isbase'
06:44:04 <luatre> ValueError: unknown url type: factorial(4) :(
06:44:06 <elliott> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'isbase'
06:44:10 <elliott> oklopol: i think definitely
06:44:48 <oklopol> yeah that's kinda a clue.py bug. i noticed it earlier but i didn't feel like fixing it
06:44:54 <elliott> well i fixed it in factorial
06:44:58 <oklopol> that means none of your branches has been chosen as the default one
06:45:08 <elliott> oklopol: guess what happens when i deprive factorial of 1
06:45:15 <elliott> | 0 => multiply(pred(#0) pred(#0))
06:45:16 <elliott> | _ => multiply(#0 @(pred(#0)))
06:46:09 <oklopol> btw your factorial definition is very weird
06:46:22 <oklopol> did you copy paste it from your fibonacci program
06:46:37 <oklopol> can i have your current version?
06:46:46 <elliott> stack-hogging factorial ~ {. 0 -> 1 }
06:46:46 <elliott> stack-hogging factorial ~ {:. 4 -> 24
06:46:50 <oklopol> yeah, it should still work that way, but you need another base case
06:46:52 <elliott> stack-hogging factorial ~ multiply; pred; 0
06:46:54 <elliott> gonna do tail-recursive now
06:47:12 <oklopol> because it will actually do the recursion, just ignore the result :D
06:47:24 <oklopol> or... i guess it might use it as well, but then it would prolly be wrong
06:48:19 <oklopol> default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1]
06:48:38 <oklopol> call clue, instead of what was @ if default == None before
06:48:51 <oklopol> that should maybe fix things.
06:49:12 <elliott> meanwhile cluetest.py has hung for me
06:49:15 <oklopol> i did, but my version is oooooooooold
06:49:26 <elliott> oklopol: you can fix it in mine tomorrow, double fun
06:49:46 <elliott> oklopol: if you promise not to like
06:50:11 <oklopol> just change those two lines, and maybe test out the current version on the examples
06:50:52 <elliott> oklopol: does vjn have a file-uploady
06:51:02 <oklopol> yes, the filebin, but i doubt it actually works
06:51:15 <elliott> oklopol: btw cluetest is the repl, "python cluetest.py file1 file2 file3", very useful for testing, see its source for more
06:51:26 <oklopol> and i don't know where it is, it seems
06:51:29 <elliott> oklopol: don't change cluetest or cluebot, though, I want to factor out the luatre code into a separate file rather than copypasting it
06:51:34 <elliott> before anything else changes
06:52:01 <elliott> factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6
06:52:01 <elliott> factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6
06:52:04 <oklopol> i'm not going to change anything.
06:52:09 <elliott> factorial loop ~ multiply; pred
06:52:17 <elliott> factorial ~ factorial loop; 1
06:52:34 <oklopol> maybe because of . 3 -> 26
06:53:22 <elliott> oklopol: http://rapidshare.com/files/441572099/clue.zip
06:53:28 <cheater00> elliott: has your superdrive arrived?
06:53:31 <elliott> oklopol: feel free to correct it to 3 -> 6 locally in numplay.clue :P
06:53:34 <elliott> cheater00: no, about monday or tuesday
06:53:59 <elliott> oklopol: btw i would like it if the implementation became properly tail recursive even though python doesn't really allow that
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06:54:14 <elliott> oklopol: I might make it compile to something that isn't a tangle of lambdas in a day or so
06:54:26 <elliott> because right now tail recursive code is useless :D
06:54:43 <oklopol> yes, was thinking of mentioning that, but realized you aren't an idiot
06:55:23 <oklopol> elliott: compiling to python bytecode shouldn't be very hard
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06:55:42 <elliott> oklopol: yeah but also python bytecode is kinda gross
06:56:12 <oklopol> java bytecode would be nice. just because.
06:56:29 <oklopol> everyone else is doing it!
06:56:37 <elliott> oklopol: well it would certainly be fast.
06:56:44 <cheater00> elliott: because i want you to finally stop using macintosh operating system
06:56:53 <elliott> cheater00: i've used debian for the past months and ubuntu before that...
06:56:57 <elliott> i haven't touched os x in like a year
06:57:06 <elliott> oklopol: python bytecode has the advantage of being able to do reply stuff easy
06:57:13 <elliott> oklopol: and it's like... fast enough :P
06:58:12 <elliott> the most intuitive language possible
06:58:32 <oklopol> just give the results, and the compiler infers all the code!
06:58:35 <elliott> cheater00: because you write your programs by simply listing a few example inputs and outputs, and show how they recurse
06:58:40 <elliott> then there's sortofatinylineofhintsbutwhocaresaboutthat
06:58:44 <elliott> and it gives you your function!
06:58:54 <elliott> quicksort: oklopol: python
06:58:59 <elliott> quicksort: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29/Quicksort
06:59:04 <elliott> cheater00: example driven despair
06:59:10 <elliott> oklopol: test driven dragon
06:59:22 <cheater00> elliott: how does it know what to infer
06:59:26 <elliott> oklopol: i'ma remove greater than? from quicksort and use is greater than? elsewhere 'cuz it's in stdlib
06:59:40 <cheater00> every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations
07:00:00 <oklopol> i don't know what test driven development is, but i assume it's something totally gay
07:00:22 <elliott> cheater00: just read http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29/Quicksort and absorb the simple
07:00:43 <oklopol> yeah it's not really even an esolang, we should be talking in #serious_programming
07:00:48 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=124541 very nice!!
07:00:51 <cheater00> elliott: this sounds like one of those mysteries
07:01:16 <cheater00> like, how does science putty stay hard yet always able to become malleable
07:01:28 <elliott> Vorpal: this is nicer than painterly
07:01:41 <cheater00> or, how do rice krispies keep crackling and popping??
07:01:47 <elliott> Vorpal: winner of the texture pack compo :P
07:01:59 <elliott> Vorpal: also nice: http://www.eldpack.com/
07:02:24 <elliott> oklopol: so, clue self-interp
07:03:17 <elliott> oklopol: you will like this http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=98896 but i don't think it'll work on smp
07:03:26 <cheater00> the quicksort in clue is really truly the best quicksort ever
07:03:48 <cheater00> in fact i know someone who might be very interested in doing something like this with python bytecode
07:04:08 <oklopol> elliott: wanna make me a texture pack where all the blocks are just drawn a thick border
07:04:21 <cheater00> oklopol: how does clue know what to infer
07:04:24 <elliott> oklopol: i did a almost-all-solid-colour pack but it was beyond fugly
07:04:27 <oklopol> and maybe slightly different hues of black
07:04:32 <elliott> cheater00: and it does generate python
07:04:47 <elliott> anyway people sounds like other people sounds scary, they'd probably want to add a way to call functions too
07:05:03 <elliott> cheater00: http://www.vjn.fi/clue.rar see clue.py
07:05:07 <elliott> glue function in particular
07:05:10 <elliott> has kinda changed but mostly optimisations
07:05:12 <oklopol> well i can explain the procedure i use in my implementation
07:05:13 <elliott> that'll give you a good idea
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07:05:28 <cheater00> why must i execute non-gpl code for this
07:05:42 <cheater00> A pages you tried to acess does no exist on this servers.
07:05:42 <cheater00> Copyright 2007 by VJN. All Rights deserted. v: 0.9
07:05:49 <elliott> cheater00: that's because you're bad
07:05:56 <cheater00> at least i can stay gpl for another couple of minutes
07:06:00 <elliott> cheater00: http://rapidshare.com/files/441572099/clue.zip
07:06:00 <oklopol> cheater00: it just brute forces
07:06:13 <elliott> if it literally just brute forced it'd never work.
07:06:21 <elliott> cheater00: http://rapidshare.com/files/441572099/clue.zip
07:06:26 <elliott> cheater00: dos line endings because oklopol
07:06:32 <cheater00> can't you use something sane like dropbox?
07:06:41 <elliott> cheater00: i would just host it myself except my web server is sort of not on.
07:06:58 <elliott> dropbox requires an account and is bullshit software i don't need irritating me...like all software
07:06:58 <cheater00> dropboxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxy
07:07:02 <elliott> oklopol: do you edit with notepad or wordpad, can't really imagine you using anything else
07:07:17 <cheater00> i like the tools they provide and they're under steady maintenance
07:07:29 <elliott> oklopol: ah good, i can convert to unix file endings
07:07:32 <cheater00> oklopol: you're not using vim??????????????
07:07:40 <elliott> cheater00: fuck you, oklopol can do what the fuck he wants
07:08:01 <cheater00> elliott: i run it inside a VM so that i don't get infected with non-gpl-aids
07:08:11 <cheater00> elliott: no, oklopol cannot do anything.
07:08:20 <elliott> oklopol: thing i wanted to type: rm *.pyc
07:08:20 * cheater00 casts a spell of non-doing on oklopol
07:08:24 <elliott> oklopol: thing i typed: rm *.py
07:08:40 <oklopol> cheater00: it's really hard to just quickly summarize how exactly clue works
07:08:51 <oklopol> i guess it's a good illustration if i explain how recursion is done
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07:09:19 <cheater00> oklopol: so you give clue some basic rules and some data and infers some rule that fits the data?
07:09:48 <oklopol> you give is an input -> output pair, and you tell it all the subinputs and suboutputs, which would be done recursively, then subinputs are computed from input, and output from suboutputs. this gives you a rule for computing recursive cases
07:10:12 <oklopol> it's the details that are interesting, since they make that feasible
07:10:24 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3593752799.txt
07:10:25 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
07:10:25 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (pivot condition 2) :(
07:10:28 <cheater00> given two different implementations of clue, how do they ensure they infer the same rule?
07:10:42 <oklopol> cheater00: add more examples, and they'll probably have the same rule
07:11:00 <Sgeo> Why haven't I heard of Fantom before?
07:11:08 <elliott> Sgeo: you have, it was called Fan then
07:11:16 <Sgeo> elliott, I haven't heard of Fan either
07:11:18 <cheater00> oklopol: you just need to make a canonical way of traversing the space of rules.
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07:11:34 -!- luatre has joined.
07:11:36 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3593752799.txt
07:11:36 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
07:11:36 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (pivot condition 2) :(
07:12:04 <elliott> newobj=applier(fun,subsetobjs)
07:12:09 <elliott> oklopol: this. this is the worst.
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07:12:26 -!- luatre has joined.
07:12:27 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p3593752799.txt
07:12:28 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
07:12:28 <luatre> TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable :(
07:13:02 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/stuff.py", line 47, in car
07:13:02 <elliott> TypeError: 'int' object is unsubscriptable
07:13:37 <Sgeo> Duration literals?
07:13:47 <elliott> oklopol: should isempty 3 be None
07:14:01 <oklopol> cheater00: i don't really care what you think, it's a stupid idea to order the search in the spec, because then compilers would have to check that whole path, and in general that's impossible.
07:14:02 <Sgeo> Never seen anything like those before, although due to Factor's "syntax", factor may as well
07:14:15 <oklopol> it's easier to let people compile however they want
07:14:51 <cheater00> oklopol: not order the search, but canonicize the traversal
07:14:56 <oklopol> cheater00: it's not even specified that the same program should work the same way when compiled twice on the same compiler
07:15:07 <oklopol> cheater00: what's the difference?
07:15:12 <elliott> oklopol: what should cdr([]) be?
07:15:23 <cheater00> for example if you have a labirynth and you're traversing it, one way to canonicize it is to say "turn right first"
07:15:33 <Sgeo> Fantom is failing to turn me on
07:15:34 <cheater00> you do NOT have to search all paths to do that
07:15:36 <elliott> oklopol: you will be glad to know, making stuff that should be errors into errors makes clue break the stack
07:15:37 <oklopol> yeah, that's what i meant by ordering the search
07:15:40 <Sgeo> It's not turning me off, but it's... boring
07:15:49 <elliott> Sgeo thinks about languages with his penis
07:16:06 <cheater00> oklopol: you don't have to pre-compute the complete space for that.
07:16:13 <oklopol> cheater00: no, but you can't use another strategy then, and it's not the spec's job to contain the best strategy.
07:16:15 <cheater00> oklopol: it's insane to think that
07:16:38 <Sgeo> Fantom : C# :: C# : Java
07:16:41 <Sgeo> From what I can tell
07:16:43 <oklopol> no you can't, you'd have to prove that it's the first thing you'd've found with the strategy given in the spec.
07:16:59 <cheater00> oklopol: you can input your own strategies.
07:17:11 <cheater00> oklopol: otherwise the language is really infertile
07:17:18 <elliott> oklopol: well... remind me to fix what i broke in the zip impl tomorrow. dunno what. :(. also: remind me to make that auto-realigning emacs mode. in fact just copy this to a file and restate it to me.
07:17:23 <elliott> oklopol: additionally, please hold on to your old code
07:17:27 <oklopol> cheater00: you are infertile
07:17:27 <elliott> so i can correct the current code with it tomorrow
07:17:40 <elliott> cheater00: you do not understand clue
07:17:56 <Sgeo> "This means non-nullable is the default unless otherwise specified:"
07:17:59 <cheater00> elliott: you do not understand what i understand about clue
07:18:04 <Sgeo> That's a good thing
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07:18:23 <Sgeo> It's like "Improve this here, improve that there"
07:19:13 <cheater00> oklopol: i think being able to input your own strategies would really be the best eva
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07:20:27 <oklopol> cheater00: it would be nice, yes, although possibly the topic of another language. what would be retarded is to write "if there is an implementation of function f with these properties in the ball of size k, then this implementation should be chosen".
07:20:55 <oklopol> or having in the spec that you always follow the right hand wall
07:21:05 <oerjan> <cheater00> for example if you have a labirynth and you're traversing it, one way to canonicize it is to say "turn right first" <-- except this will cause you to miss parts for most labyrinths. which might be analogously relevant for clue as well...
07:21:05 <cheater00> well you define your strategies and put em in a lib
07:21:24 <oklopol> as i said, if you added a whole strategy concept to the language, yes, that would be nice.
07:22:02 <cheater00> oerjan: no, you would not miss them, unless they're unimportant.
07:22:13 <cheater00> oerjan: the idea is simply to get to the other side.
07:22:49 <oklopol> what does that mean, the right hand algo doesn't have backtracking
07:22:55 <cheater00> oerjan: it is not a goal to visit every square.
07:23:10 <cheater00> oklopol: imagine two labirynths, one is to your right, one is to your left
07:23:17 <cheater00> oklopol: the one to the right has no exit.
07:23:44 <oerjan> cheater00: sorry i somehow read that as "turn right always" :D
07:25:15 <oklopol> that's not part of the right hand algo, but yes, you're right, the right hand algorithm doesn't solve all labyrinth related problems. just like it doesn't solve the knapsack problem.
07:25:54 <oerjan> oklopol: i misread him, he didn't actually say the right hand algorithm
07:26:14 <oklopol> was wondering what that comment of yours was about
07:26:27 <oklopol> cheater00: i'm sorry as well
07:27:28 <oklopol> anyway it's a good thing that programs work differently on different compilers
07:27:45 <oklopol> the point is to put in enough examples that that doesn't happen, which isn't all that many.
07:28:31 <oklopol> this is meant to be a *practical* language, for your everyday programming needs.
07:28:49 <oklopol> it compiles quicksort in less time than it'd take you to eat a sandwich
07:29:23 <oklopol> and if you compile your programs to ski, you can write ANY PROGRAM POSSIBLE
07:29:23 <cheater00> oklopol: you haven't been paying attention in maths class have you
07:29:42 <cheater00> <cheater00> every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations
07:29:43 <oklopol> didn't you insult my math skills once before?
07:29:51 <oklopol> yeah that's the most retarded comment i've ever heard
07:30:20 * Sgeo learns of the existence of Noop
07:30:20 <cheater00> so the only thingi i'll answer is NO U
07:30:22 <oklopol> i'm going to stop talking to you now
07:32:02 <oklopol> but anyway it's clear that you can't continue the sequence 7 5 3 2 1 in anyway for instance, since the next one would have to be a prime number smaller than 1, and one doesn't exist
07:32:14 <Sgeo> SO MANY AWESOME SEEMING LANGUAGES OUT THERE
07:32:25 <oklopol> it can be mathematically proven that there are no prime numbers smaller than 1
07:32:32 <oklopol> let me prove that rigorously:
07:32:51 <oklopol> let p be a prime number that's smaller than 1; then, it must be 0, but 0 is not a prime number
07:33:13 <oklopol> also it could be negative, but then it's not a natural number, and the sequence must be over natural numbers
07:33:41 <oklopol> so i guess you should take your crazy theories elsewhere
07:34:05 <hagb4rd> riddle time: imagine there are 2 doors..one leads to heaven (actually the place you want to go), the other leads to hell.. in front of each stands a guardian, one is telling the truth, and the other one lies (you don't know who lies).. u have only one(!) question to find out which door leads leads to paradise; what question would you ask? (if you already know the answer, be nice and let the others take a chance) hf!
07:34:07 <oerjan> oklopol: 1 IS NOT A PRIME NUMBER
07:34:20 <oklopol> so actually even THAT sequence doesn't exist?
07:34:56 <oklopol> math can be pretty counter-intuitive sometimes
07:35:00 <oerjan> oklopol: you could also drop the 2
07:35:19 <oklopol> have you heard that theorem that if you take a ball, and an infinite amount of boxes, then you can build another ball by making the correct choice?
07:35:21 <oerjan> but that would be an odd thing to do
07:36:24 <oklopol> cheater00: how did it go again, i'm a bit rusty on my advanced complex measure theory?
07:36:35 <oerjan> oklopol: it rings a bell. do you know what's an anagram of banach-tarski?
07:36:59 <oerjan> banach-tarski banach-tarski
07:38:42 <oerjan> hagb4rd: sorry, but if there is anyone here who _doesn't_ know the answer, we'll have to ban him for being insufficiently geeky.
07:39:44 * oklopol just went "oh that simple thing" and went on with his life, now wonders if he could actually do it
07:41:30 <oklopol> was slightly deeper than i expected
07:43:07 <oklopol> hmm right, there actually is a trivial solution
07:43:09 <oerjan> http://xkcd.com/246/ and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html
07:43:36 <oerjan> (also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightsAndKnaves with the usual warning)
07:43:59 <hagb4rd> oerjan, you havent just gooled the answer, did you?^^
07:44:19 <oklopol> gave away the whole answer
07:44:21 <oerjan> hagb4rd: of course not, i was trying to find that oots comic from before
07:45:06 <oklopol> but you also don't know which one stands at which door :D
07:46:37 <oerjan> btw the tvtropes page _does_ contain spoilers. in fact several options.
07:46:54 <Sgeo> http://emerginglangs.com/speakers/
07:46:58 <Sgeo> I want to learn all of these
07:47:12 <Sgeo> Well, not all of them
07:47:20 <oklopol> okay so just use the fact both operations are involutions
07:47:33 <Sgeo> Dalvik isn't even a lang.. well, I guess it kind of ... huh?
07:47:40 <oklopol> "if you asked yourself, ...."
07:49:12 <oklopol> or, route through both gates
07:49:29 <oerjan> hagb4rd: i am currently mind-boggling at oklopol apparently being _two_ geeky to find a simple solution :D
07:49:31 <oklopol> really it's a trivial problem once you put it down formally
07:49:54 <oklopol> oerjan: my solutions are g^2 and gh
07:50:02 <oklopol> can you get away with just one operation?
07:50:04 <Sgeo> Now I'm looking at ooc
07:50:06 <oerjan> that's a danger of geekiness, you see too many options
07:50:23 <hagb4rd> its not that simple.. to be honest.. i spent hours on it
07:50:26 <oklopol> tell me in pm if you can't tell here
07:51:19 <oerjan> to be honest i've known this puzzle for so long that i cannot even remember if i solved it before reading the answer or not (probably not, to be honest)
07:51:36 <oklopol> i mean it's likely those aren't the simplest solutions when you actually translate them to english, but i don't think that's a very interesting problem.
07:56:56 <Sgeo> I think ooc has more marketers than program language designers
07:57:30 <oerjan> "Another is set in Transylvania, where people can be either sane or insane (insane people believe untruths) and either a human or a vampire. Humans speak the truth and vampires lie all the time, so an insane human speaks untruths he believes while an insane vampire speaks truths he does not believe in."
07:57:48 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm wrong
07:57:59 <Sgeo> But the documentation is so... obtuse
07:58:08 <Sgeo> I'll look at it agian later I gues
07:58:54 <oklopol> oerjan: doesn't a true mathematician forget all problems, and solve them from scratch every time
07:59:09 <oklopol> i hear neumann started all his proofs from epsilons
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08:00:32 <oklopol> it would be nice if that was a characteristic of a true mathematician, because i still keep proving equivalences between definitions of continuity daily
08:00:50 <oerjan> oklopol: i certainly used to do such things
08:00:56 <oerjan> not so much these days
08:01:09 <oklopol> well, i'm working on finite things now, but usually
08:02:08 <oklopol> were you just like me at 21?
08:02:53 <oklopol> exam in 24 hours, fuckfuckfuck
08:02:55 <oerjan> reproving theorems in my head? yes.
08:03:25 <oklopol> being paid to do math has made me a really lazy studier, i feel like i'm above taking courses
08:03:49 <oerjan> i have the impression you're considerably more extroverted than me. but that might not be something which shows perfectly over irc.
08:04:16 <oklopol> i was recently told by a professor that i might enjoy the master's thesis seminar because i'm so extroverted
08:06:29 <oklopol> and once a guy was really surprised i was a mathematician because i actually talked to people
08:06:53 <oklopol> so i wonder what kinda mathematicians he's met because i mostly played the guitar when he visited afair
08:06:55 <oerjan> oklopol: i certainly started dropping a number of lectures after a few years. especially early morning ones.
08:07:44 <hagb4rd> master in maths, social engineerer, star-author and sex-symbol :>
08:07:48 <oklopol> i've started not doing homework, and improvising a solution if asked (they choose a random dude to present their solution)
08:09:01 <oerjan> oklopol: i think he deduces that from the fact you seem to actually get laid
08:09:21 <oerjan> if we are to believe you
08:09:24 <oklopol> hagb4rd: no i don't think so
08:09:34 <oklopol> oerjan: ah, the nerd definition
08:10:28 <oklopol> actually not so much lately, since i broke up with the gf, although we've been talking about being sex-buddies with an ex
08:11:22 <oklopol> (we broke up because of artistic differences)
08:11:32 <oerjan> i _guess_ all the porn talk could be a factor as well
08:12:12 <oerjan> oklopol: you mean she didn't want to make a porn movie with you? how unartistic.
08:12:38 <oklopol> actually she didn't, although i'm not entirely sure that was a factor
08:13:17 <oklopol> so now that elliott is gone
08:13:31 <oklopol> there's really NOTHING for me here, i wonder if i should actually start studying soon.
08:13:46 <oklopol> it's just there's a fuckload of theorems : d
08:13:53 <oklopol> i mean a true and serious fuckload
08:14:07 <oerjan> hundreds of thousands, i hear
08:14:47 <oklopol> do you know green's theorem
08:15:08 <oerjan> no i'm a bit green on that
08:15:44 <hagb4rd> maybe we should kick&ban oklopol, until he mad the grade :p
08:15:50 <oerjan> (i thought you meant in analysis, and was going to complain that i missed a pun opportunity)
08:16:31 <oerjan> hagb4rd: tried that with Sgeo, didn't work
08:16:53 <oklopol> hagb4rd: also i need to sleep some part of that :D
08:17:14 <oklopol> 10 am now, the exam is actually at 9 am tomorrow prolly
08:17:37 <oerjan> it turned out eventually that he only got to doing his homework once he got back on the channel. well i guess the swiftly approaching extended deadline might have had a part as well.
08:17:43 <oklopol> there's maybe 10 pages that contain stuff i couldn't just crap out of my wrist in the exam
08:18:35 <oklopol> oerjan: green's is when you define xLy <=> Sx = Sy and xRy symmetrically
08:18:44 <oklopol> and then H = intersection of those
08:19:16 <oklopol> then a H class is a group iff it contains an identity iff it is closed under multiplication of at least two of its elements
08:19:40 <oklopol> there's a lot more where that came from
08:21:03 <oklopol> well aren't you gonna say "woooooooooow"
08:21:42 <oklopol> if i go to sleep now, and sleep my usual 10-12 hours, i'll still have like 12 hours left
08:21:43 <oerjan> not really, it doesn't precisely sound surprising
08:22:41 <oerjan> oklopol: in my case i would be more worried about actually being able to be awake tomorrow...
08:23:02 <oklopol> there are many examples of complicated proofs in the literature which prove a small subcase of that
08:23:14 <oerjan> but i guess your sleeping rhythm isn't quite as fragile as mine
08:23:19 <oklopol> why is it not surprising, maybe i don't understand it?
08:23:42 <oklopol> i don't have a sleeping rhythm.
08:23:52 <oklopol> i just sleep when ever i happen to
08:23:55 <oerjan> oklopol: well i guess it could be harder to prove than i think
08:24:23 <oklopol> thank god for saying that, i actually took the papers here
08:25:29 <oerjan> the first iff looks like it should be nearly trivial, at least
08:26:10 <oklopol> don't spoil it, i'm sure you're faster than me
08:26:25 <oerjan> hm wait is that an identity for H or for the whole semigroup?
08:28:15 <oerjan> yeah then that is trivial
08:28:43 <oklopol> right to left, why does tehre need to be an inverse in H?
08:29:08 <oerjan> because ee = e, so Sx and xS both contain e
08:29:35 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=124541 very nice!! <-- quite, but the inventory screen looks weird.
08:29:40 <oklopol> xS and Sx of course contain e, because they are that H class
08:29:53 <oklopol> so? that "inverse" might not be in H
08:30:46 <oklopol> alrighty, it's possible that there's a very simple proof, and that it's on three pages just for clarity, there's a very nice lemma that clarifies how things jump between these classes
08:31:20 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hagb4rd|afk.
08:32:38 <oerjan> deducing something from "closed under multiplication of at least two of its elements" looks somewhat harder anyway
08:32:41 <oklopol> anyway it's inverse semigroups that are the main point of this course, do you remember that semigroup problem we tried to solve in the fall?
08:33:14 <oklopol> inverse semigroups are that kinda stuff
08:33:25 <oklopol> you define inverses without an identity
08:33:36 <oklopol> like forallx, x = xyx for unique x
08:33:42 <oerjan> xx'x = x and x'xx' = x'
08:34:00 <oklopol> err right, that for unique is inverse semigroup i think
08:34:24 <oklopol> they turn out to have all kinds of crazy properties
08:34:39 <oklopol> ...which i don't understand at all
08:35:00 <oklopol> i suppose i did at some point, but now i don't even remember what the trace is
08:35:31 <oerjan> we were fooling around with idempotents and proving there was only one and thus it was a group under some condition
08:36:27 * oerjan doesn't recall any trace either
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08:36:42 <Sgeo> What worked for me was not sleeping for 48 hours
08:36:54 <oklopol> S is a group <=> forall x exactly one y: x = x x'x
08:37:14 <Sgeo> The effects of which are still with me
08:37:16 <oklopol> then also exactly one y: x x' idempotent
08:37:26 <Sgeo> In the form of staying up and night and sleeping during the day
08:38:13 <oerjan> oklopol: your spelling seems to imply you need sleep
08:38:16 <oklopol> i'm sure it was the first one
08:38:46 <oklopol> when reading these proofs, the most important thing is being able to retain the about 10 things they name, and remember exactly what equations were proved sofar
08:39:05 <oklopol> and that's like the exact opposite of the being able to do nothing with my brain state that i'm in atm
08:39:28 <oklopol> heeey shoppe is open, maybe i should go buy some pizza, and watch the cleveland show
08:39:32 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
08:39:51 <oerjan> this early on a sunday?
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08:40:01 <oklopol> i think it's 10-10 every day
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08:40:15 <oklopol> it's a kinda special shoppe
08:40:25 <Sgeo_> BTW, elliott really was trying to login as me
08:40:29 <oklopol> because it's *the* shoppe of the student village i'm living in
08:40:29 <Sgeo_> -NickServ- 3 failed logins since last login.
08:40:31 <Sgeo_> -NickServ- Last failed attempt from: elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott on Jan 08 23:26:33 2011.
08:40:35 <oerjan> most shops in norway don't keep open on sundays, by law
08:40:48 <oklopol> ones under 400m^2 can stay open here
08:40:52 <oerjan> small ones are exempted
08:41:01 <oklopol> and can in general stay open whenever they want
08:42:40 <oerjan> oklopol: there was a great battle here in the early 90s between shops and gasoline stations where the former had to obey closing restrictions but not the latter and the latter started getting more and more shop-like groceries and the like
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08:43:48 <Sgeo_> Ok, the ANI tutorial reads like an esolang spec
08:43:51 <oerjan> after trying for a while to distinguish based on what they sold the politicians eventually gave up and changed it to being based on shop area instead
08:43:57 <oklopol> lol and then shops started selling gasoline
08:44:09 <oerjan> oklopol: well some tried
08:44:24 <oerjan> although not for that reason i think
08:45:13 <oerjan> there was a grocery chain (rema 1000) who tried adding gasoline outlets. this was after what i described above though.
08:45:56 <oerjan> i think they sold them off after a while
08:46:30 <oerjan> anyway here in norway 7/eleven tends to be open 24/7
08:47:32 <oerjan> (they're actually franchised by the rema 1000 people)
08:48:03 <oerjan> well here in trondheim at least, don't know if it's true in smaller places
08:48:28 <Sgeo_> How is ANI not an esolang?
08:49:16 <oerjan> i don't know about ANI but we used to require some _intent_ to be esoteric
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08:50:04 <Sgeo_> I'm sure ANI is perfectly usable for ordinary applications
08:50:05 <oerjan> there was this BancStar thing which was completely insane but which wasn't considered esoteric since it was actually used in some industry
08:50:23 <oerjan> or something like that
08:50:38 <Sgeo_> It's just.. now I know what it feels like for an imperative programmer to jump headfirst into functional programming
08:50:43 <Sgeo_> Utterly, utterly bizarre
08:51:00 <Sgeo_> oerjan, do you know any dataflow languages?
08:51:04 <Sgeo_> Because that's what ANI is
08:52:04 <oklopol> oerjan: multiplication from left preserves H classes, so if two things have their product in a H-class, you also know their H-classes go into that H-class
08:52:14 <oerjan> hm i don't _know_ any, but i've heard something. sisal rings a bell.
08:52:14 <oklopol> this property of H is easy to prove, although a bit verbose
08:52:35 <oklopol> that's xy \in H => H group
08:52:38 <oklopol> which is the hard part i think
08:53:17 <Sgeo_> Oh, I think it's called anic
08:54:17 <oklopol> maybe it's not that simple bleh
08:54:33 <oerjan> um H classes are sort of left-right symmetric aren't they
08:55:22 <oklopol> i specified left because at that precise moment i wasn't sure i wouldn't need to talk about right as well
08:55:33 <oklopol> but now it looks kinda useless, yes
08:55:51 <oerjan> i certainly don't see why multiplication from left preserves H classes
08:59:18 <oklopol> not actually true: what's true is if x, y \in S, xLy, and sx=y, s'y=x, then 1) (s*) : R_x -> R_y is bij., (s'*) : R_y -> R_x is bij 2) (s*) and (s'*) are inverses 3) zLsz for all z \in R_x 4) u, v \in R_x => (uHv <=> suHsv)
09:00:12 <Sgeo_> ANIC gives me a headache
09:00:17 <Sgeo_> It looks awesome, but
09:01:08 <oerjan> oklopol: um but S is not necessary a monoid so how do you know there is an s such that sx=y? or is that an assumption?
09:01:12 <oklopol> if xLy, and sx = y, then multiplication by s from left is actually a bijection from R_x to R_y
09:01:30 <oklopol> and that's easy because s' is its inverse
09:01:45 <oklopol> i have the wrong definition
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09:03:15 <oklopol> if there already is an identity, then S^1 = S
09:03:37 <oerjan> that's i think equivalent to x \in S y and y \in S x, no?
09:03:58 <oklopol> yes, therefore i could implement this relation with s and s'
09:04:04 <Sgeo_> I don't even know the name of the thing
09:04:06 <oklopol> so yeah that was implicit up there
09:04:08 <Sgeo_> Is it ANI or ANIC?
09:04:46 <oerjan> hm except... if S x does not contain x what then
09:05:00 <oklopol> doesn't matter, L is defined using S^1
09:05:11 <oerjan> it's necessary to use S^1 for that
09:05:54 <oklopol> yes, it's necessary to define that particular definition the way it's defined, if you want to define it the way it's defined.
09:06:21 <oklopol> i just gave the wrong definition for relation L, originally
09:06:29 <oklopol> which would've made the theorems impossible to prove
09:06:34 <oerjan> well if S x doesn't contain x then only x is in its class
09:07:26 <oklopol> in its what class, L class with the correct def?
09:08:16 <oerjan> because S^1 y cannot contain x if S^1 x contains y and x is not y
09:08:53 <oerjan> assuming S x does not contain x
09:09:34 <oklopol> i can't think at all right now :\
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09:11:00 <oerjan> assume S x does not contain x, and xLy, x != y. then S^1 x = S^1 y.
09:11:42 <oerjan> since x!=y, y \in S x. also x \in S y. but then x \in S x, contradiction.
09:12:30 <oklopol> you're using the wrong def of L there or?
09:12:53 <oerjan> since x!=y you cannot have 1 x = y or x = 1 y
09:12:53 <oklopol> so... you assume xLy, and prove S^1 x = S^1 y?
09:13:00 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should stick with Mozart/Oz instead
09:13:11 <oklopol> that's the definition of L
09:13:13 <oerjan> oklopol: um that's not proving, that's using the definition
09:14:20 <oklopol> does that give us something interesting?
09:14:33 <oklopol> it seems like it could be the gist of ...something
09:14:46 <oerjan> only a way to rephrase xLy without using S^1
09:14:58 * Sgeo_ goes back to trying to understand ANIC
09:15:38 <Sgeo_> Oz is tempting me though in every other way
09:15:42 <oklopol> i suppose it's something i'd normally consider trivial
09:21:14 <oklopol> i'll prolly go to the shoppe, eat a pizza, and try to sleep only till like 18
09:21:31 <oklopol> and hope i can stay awake all night and then do the exam :D
09:22:09 <oklopol> i've been trying to flip my sleep rhythm all week, but it just keeps around, and i mostly sleep during the day
09:23:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: The fucked up sleep channel | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
09:23:23 <oklopol> anyway see ya, might actually be useful to talk about this stuff with you if i was even close to my usual self, but currently i'm just durrrr xS durrrr what did that mean again
09:24:58 <oklopol> ...actually that's exactly what i did because i defined R using xS and then assumed x was automatically there
09:32:04 <Sgeo_> Yay, I wrote an Oz program!
09:32:44 <Sgeo_> All sorts of languages have bizarre ways of saying NOP
09:32:50 <oerjan> i could write an Oz program, if i only had a brain
09:33:01 <Sgeo_> COBOL's continue, Oz's skip, Python's pass
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09:35:12 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/1442161
09:35:24 <Sgeo_> Hey, this code from the tutorial is comprehendible!
09:35:55 <Sgeo_> I just realized something, I think
09:36:25 <Sgeo_> {Max 3 4 X} would bind 4 to X. But {Max 3 4 3} would raise an exception, and {Max 3 4 4} doesn't
09:36:31 <Sgeo_> That's interesting to think about
09:38:57 <Sgeo_> There's def. a Prolog vibe here
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10:03:03 * Sgeo_ wonders what Alice is lie
10:03:26 <Sgeo_> Grah, don't want to learn SML first
10:03:46 <j-invariant> I think it's a sort of toned down version of Oz, but with Types
10:04:09 <Sgeo_> Is Oz still actively worked on?
10:09:50 <Vorpal> ineiros, there is a hole in my mines that I did not blow. I have not been on for a few days but I suspect ehird or PH. It looks like TNT
10:09:59 <Vorpal> they were in that area when I last disconnected
10:10:50 <Vorpal> ineiros, a lot of damage
10:16:36 <Vorpal> ineiros, see /msg for further detailks
10:19:43 <j-invariant> http://superuser.com/questions/230871/is-it-possible-to-code-on-two-different-computers-simultaneously
10:19:45 * oerjan predicts this will instigate a violent minecraft civil war which will lasts for months and only peter out when it turns out these explosions are just caused by a somewhat rare interaction of bugs
10:19:51 <j-invariant> "Is it possible to code on two different computers simultaenously"
10:26:36 <fizzie> oerjan: Sometimes it feels as if we're in a permanent civil war already.
10:32:39 * Sgeo_ wants to see servers based on war
10:32:51 * Sgeo_ imagines extensive Obsidian mining campaigns
10:33:13 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages
10:33:21 <Sgeo_> Well, there goes any chance of me sleeping ever again
10:33:58 <Sgeo_> Actually, I have no way of determining which are interesting and which aren;t
10:34:25 <fizzie> All that have odd SHA hashes are interesting. (A scientific fact.)
10:35:31 <j-invariant> Sgeo_: you could make something that picks a random one each week and tells you to learn about it
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10:58:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, perhaps you can explain why there is an obvious TNT hole in my mines. You and ehird were the people most recently seen near that place.
10:59:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in other words, you did it?
11:01:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that sounds absurd in this situation. Anyway someone blew up stuff there. One chest with mined obsidian and diamond (about 15 of each) was in the destroyed area. So I want to know who did it
11:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott placed the TNT, and I set it off unintentionally.
11:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Ridiculous as that sounds, I have a touchpad with tap-to-click enabled.
11:03:09 <Sgeo_> So TNT is unremovable?
11:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, you can safely detonate it if you pour water over it.
11:03:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of compensation...
11:04:08 <Sgeo_> How much obsidian can you mine with 3 diamonds (= 1 diamond pick-axe)?
11:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> You've stated yourself that you have storerooms full of it.
11:04:54 <Vorpal> yes quite. But it is work restoring the area
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11:05:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you could have told me right away so ineiros could have used a backup to restore that chunk
11:06:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also compensation doesn't work that way. If you burn down a small garden shed in real life of someone who has a large house and a lot of money there will still be consequences
11:07:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I leave it up to you two how to split the compensation between you
11:08:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, very well. I will speak with ineiros when he comes on
11:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> But if you think elliott is going to do anything like help with "compensation", you are being astoundingly naïve.
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11:11:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I wonder what he would do in real life in case he messed up for someone else
11:11:31 <fizzie> Sgeo_: With one diamond pickaxe, you can mine 1025 blocks of obsidian, assuming you have the patience (about 4 hours, 22 minutes of solid mining) for it.
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11:12:57 <Sgeo_> Minecraft is serious business.
11:13:26 * oerjan distinctly recall someone said obsidian should be made with lava and water, not mined
11:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, if you don't want to spend ages getting the blocks.
11:17:31 <Sgeo_> How long does it take to transport all the lava to where you need it?
11:17:53 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Depends on how many buckets you want to make.
11:18:16 <Sgeo_> Enough to have large stockpiles of lava
11:18:55 <fizzie> If you use all the non-hand slots for buckets, you could carry 27 bucketfuls of lava each trip to your lava sea.
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11:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, incidentally, why is the hillside in front of the wooden house scoured of dirt?
11:29:29 <fizzie> Is this a new development or something?
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11:30:53 <Phantom__Hoover> No, just wondering why it was like that in the first place.
11:31:01 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that was before my time.
11:31:30 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, to answer your in game question: 26
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12:20:14 <Sgeo_> I think I like Atomo more than Slate, but.. I'm wondering if Slate syntax weirdness is there for a very good reason
12:20:49 <Sgeo_> And how, in Atomo, you'd go about pattern matching such that a family of objects might receive etc,'
12:21:00 <Sgeo_> The way in Slate, you'd use Someclass traits in the thingy
12:21:25 <Sgeo_> I'm assuming elliott knows the answer to this. He's known almost every language I have ever looked at
12:22:33 <j-invariant> does wood have any use? or should it all be turned into planks?
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12:24:01 <Sgeo_> "For wood to be destroyed by fire it must have several sides simultaneously burning. If only one side is burning, the fire and wood block will last forever. This is probably a bug but makes for nice fireplaces. Now, Netherrack can be used instead, as it burns forever without any tricks."
12:26:05 <Phantom__Hoover> <j-invariant> does wood have any use? or should it all be turned into planks? ← basically, yes.
12:26:36 <j-invariant> also how does the algorithm for culling leaves work?
12:26:47 <j-invariant> when you chop some wood away there is some kind of CA that culls leaves
12:27:16 <Vorpal> <j-invariant> does wood have any use? or should it all be turned into planks? <-- it is useful to carry as logs in inventory, takes less space for the same amount of wood
12:28:35 <j-invariant> Is this list exaustive? http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Crafting
12:28:40 <Vorpal> j-invariant, lets say you are exploring a cave and want to carry torches with you. Carrying 64 logs will be equiv of 256 wood, which can be used for§ 512 torches (with 128 coal).
12:29:08 <Vorpal> and this can be done in inventory screen crafting slots
12:30:18 <Sgeo_> Atomo blocks are the prettiest of them all
12:30:45 <Vorpal> j-invariant, think so. But I haven't checked.
12:30:54 <Vorpal> but at a quick glance I see nothing missing
12:31:34 <Vorpal> j-invariant, though it does combine some where the material varies but the shape does not (various types of armour, the ore blocks)
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12:48:04 * Sgeo_ wants a list of all domain names that end with -lang
13:01:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, unsure if you can enumerate an entire TLD. Probably not
13:01:56 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, I am aware that my fantasy is unrealistic
13:02:03 <Sgeo_> Good thing too. It would be like crack
13:02:15 <Sgeo_> Any list of new and interesting languages is crack to me
13:06:10 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo_, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Programming_language
13:06:33 <Sgeo_> Phantom__Hoover, there's no filter on that
13:06:43 <Sgeo_> I have some idea of what fascinates me and what doesn't
13:09:06 <cheater00> it is based on the axiom of choice and uses rotations in 4 dimensions.
13:09:53 <Sgeo_> But there's so many awesome languages not on the wiki!
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13:14:15 <Vorpal> <Sgeo_> Vorpal, I am aware that my fantasy is unrealistic <Sgeo_> Good thing too. It would be like crack <-- what, is it a fantasy to list all domains ending in -lang?
13:14:19 <Sgeo_> I just searched Freenode for channels tha mention lang
13:15:40 <Vorpal> personally I seldom check out new languages unless someone I know mentions it
13:17:03 <Vorpal> I found a good set of usable languages that cover my daily needs (haskell, C, erlang, scheme, plus a handful of shell like languages for trivial tasks).
13:19:00 <Vorpal> I don't know of any that uses such a suffix
13:19:14 <Vorpal> I mean, it's #haskell, not #haskell-lang for example
13:19:18 <Sgeo_> Some have lang in the topic
13:19:33 <Sgeo_> #euphoria #mirah #haxe #grml #BitC
13:19:46 <Vorpal> the only one I heard of in that list is BitC
13:19:58 <Vorpal> which looks somewhat interesting. Might be dead though. Not sure
13:20:18 <Vorpal> oh wait, I heard of arc too
13:20:20 <Sgeo_> #fantom doesn't mention lang in the topic
13:21:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, it's a very very bad lisp. The PHP of LISPs basically.
13:21:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, Paul Graham, need I say more.
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13:21:44 <Sgeo_> "The PHP of LISPs" was more informative than "Paul Graham"
13:23:31 <Sgeo_> grml is not a language, apparently
13:23:59 <Sgeo_> It got caught because of "Official language: en" in the topic
13:27:18 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, err. Are you asking if I'm talking about arc or are you asking what arc is?
13:28:20 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, the PHP of lisps. I expect elliott hates it too (not sure if it has been mentioned in the channel before).
13:28:46 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes, but that's just telling me your opinion of it, not what it is or why you think that.
13:29:45 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, do you know of Paul Graham at all?
13:30:31 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, hm, you should ask elliott when he comes on. I'm a bit busy today. Water leak and that means calling insurance company and so on.
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13:42:07 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, looks awesome
13:42:22 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, is it Hindenburg?
13:42:43 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, quite. How many blocks it it from end to end?
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13:43:13 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, less I think. But it is much thicker near the middle
13:43:33 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, and it is a lot more complete
13:43:43 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, what server is it on?
13:47:40 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, nice large ocean in that screenshot too, behind the zeppelin or blimp
13:47:40 <Sgeo_> I'm going to play some more MC
13:47:48 <Sgeo_> I just wish I didn't have to do it fullscreen
13:47:58 <Vorpal> that is end of world is it?
13:48:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Did I mention that it's logically possible to penetrate 1-metre-thick layers of anything?
13:48:31 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, of anything?
13:48:47 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, well sure with the right tools
13:50:33 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, but MC seems to match there except for bedrock. And bedrock can be explained by suspension of disbelief. And also that falling through bottom of world is annoying.
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14:22:09 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, are you saying you can wall through a wall of steel 1 m thick without making a hole?
14:23:04 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, oh I thought this was a "look how unrealistic MC is" rant
14:24:46 <Phantom__Hoover> Place track on top of layer. Place minecart on top of track. Climb into minecart. Destroy minecart.
14:27:10 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, where does the minecart end up?
14:27:57 <Phantom__Hoover> I assume you pick it up while falling into the top-secret enemy base.
14:29:47 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, what happens if the layer is 2 or 3 thick?
14:35:46 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S219XUm18LA <-- This particular break is called the AMEN
14:42:13 <Phantom__Hoover> There should really be a language that compiles into a TM.
14:44:13 <Phantom__Hoover> (I still think that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3keLeMwfHY is the coolest thing ever.)
14:44:59 <j-invariant> you need a computer to build that computer
14:47:28 <Phantom__Hoover> Yes, but to be fair an analogue control mechanism would be nigh impossible to build.
14:50:52 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, analogue computers do exist though.
14:54:35 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, any sophisticated enough for a TM's control mechanism?
14:54:57 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, no expert on them
14:56:22 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, isn't that just an FSA basically?
14:56:24 <j-invariant> I don't understand. What's that to do with analogue?
15:03:05 <oklopol> j-invariant: you'd rather explain the idea at length every time you need it rather than give it a name?
15:03:35 <oklopol> i don't think it's at all absurd
15:04:14 <oklopol> anyway Vorpal, a tm is nothing but an FSA with moving, reading and writing
15:05:27 <oklopol> j-invariant: digital is when we use two-valued electrical signals and no moving parts, analogue is else.
15:06:12 <oklopol> well that's a horrible oversimplification.
15:07:02 <oklopol> the significance of the term is that almost everything happens to be digital
15:07:26 <oklopol> so just knowing the vague fact of analogueness is more than enough in many cases
15:07:58 <oklopol> but really i'm not sure what you mean by that nothing in reality is analogue
15:08:48 <oklopol> i hope your point wasn't that the universe is discrete or anything
15:09:07 <j-invariant> I meant analogue as in Newtonian physics or exact real numbers (which can hold an infinite amount of information)
15:09:42 <j-invariant> if you take these things seriously you get stupid consequences like planetary systems which reach infinity in finite time etc.
15:10:50 <oklopol> i don't know what that means. but analogue is a very concrete concept, and it refers to the kind of continuous scales the universe allows, not to computation with reals.
15:11:03 <oklopol> what does "reach infinity" mean
15:12:11 <j-invariant> http://www.ams.org/notices/199505/saari-2.pdf
15:15:43 <oklopol> so reach infinity in the obvious sense
15:16:50 <Vorpal> <oklopol> anyway Vorpal, a tm is nothing but an FSA with moving, reading and writing <-- indeed. Wasn't that what I said?
15:17:01 <oklopol> Vorpal: i was confirming that
15:35:52 <Sgeo_> YouTube comment: "omfg thats diamond i picked that yeter day and thoguht it was a snowball so i threw it into the lava xD"
15:35:57 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaZ6wtes58M&feature=related
15:44:49 <Phantom__Hoover> Like a screech or some... oh, it's that terrifying ambience.
15:56:12 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
15:58:48 -!- elliott has joined.
15:59:52 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, Vorpal told me to ask you why Arc is the PHP of Lisps.
16:00:18 <elliott> Tell Vorpal I just woke up.
16:00:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Tell Vorpal I just woke up.
16:01:11 <elliott> 23:34:05 <hagb4rd> riddle time: imagine there are 2 doors..one leads to heaven (actually the place you want to go), the other leads to hell.. in front of each stands a guardian, one is telling the truth, and the other one lies (you don't know who lies).. u have only one(!) question to find out which door leads leads to paradise; what question would you ask? (if you already know the answer, be nice and let the others take a chance) hf
16:01:15 <cheater00> j-invariant: real numbers do not hold an infinite amount of information.
16:01:38 <elliott> cheater00: consider Chaitin's omega
16:01:50 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, you are not on ignore. Why go through Phantom__Hoover?
16:01:58 <cheater00> every real number can be encoded by a single point on an axis.
16:02:03 <elliott> Vorpal: because i felt like it!
16:02:10 <elliott> cheater00: that single point is describable only by a real.
16:02:21 <Sgeo> It can take an infinite number of digits to, say, describe the real in binary
16:02:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you are aiming for being awake the same time as oerjan is?
16:02:27 <Phantom__Hoover> They can be represented by an infinite array of bits; ergo, they represent an infinite amount of information.
16:02:35 <cheater00> but that real is just one piece of information.
16:02:46 <elliott> cheater00: you do not understand information theory.
16:02:51 <Sgeo> cheater00, I have a file on my hard drive
16:02:56 <cheater00> it cannot be described by a finite amount of binary data
16:02:56 <Sgeo> It's Infinity GB
16:03:09 <Sgeo> It does not store an infinite amount of information, as it's just one file.
16:03:21 <elliott> cheater00: you do not know what the formal definition of "information" is. accordingly, your arguments have no basis.
16:03:32 <elliott> a real _does_ convey an infinite amount of information.
16:03:51 <cheater00> elliott: my point is, "finite" depends on what algebraic system you are working on
16:04:14 <Sgeo> That's "infinity" that has a tendency to vary, I think
16:04:15 <elliott> cheater00: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory
16:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, but how compressible is that real. That is also interesting (though a different issue).
16:04:23 <Sgeo> I think "finite" is usually the same, I may be wrong
16:04:33 <Vorpal> not sure I'm using the right words for it here
16:04:35 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's equivalent to a unique infinite stream of naturals.
16:04:41 <elliott> so it's exactly as compressable as that :)
16:04:44 <cheater00> in Z, you can only encode +oo with an infinite amount of numbers which tend to +oo
16:05:04 <cheater00> in Z u {+oo} you can encode +oo in a finite amount of information
16:05:15 <elliott> cheater00: question, what makes you say that you know more mathematics than other people and act condescending towards them when clearly you have no idea at all?
16:05:56 <Sgeo> I don't think you act condescendingly. Just wrongly.
16:06:00 <cheater00> elliott: question, what makes you say that you know more mathematics than other people and act condescending towards them when clearly you have no idea at all?
16:06:01 <elliott> 23:29:42 <cheater00> <cheater00> every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations
16:06:01 <elliott> 23:29:43 <oklopol> didn't you insult my math skills once before?
16:06:01 <elliott> 23:29:51 <cheater00> quite possible :p
16:06:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what I was thinking of was that you can some reals, such as pi or e as a simple algorithm that can calculate it to any given precision.
16:06:02 <elliott> 23:29:51 <oklopol> yeah that's the most retarded comment i've ever heard
16:06:06 <elliott> 23:30:00 <oklopol> seriously
16:06:08 <elliott> 23:30:05 <cheater00> it's mathematically proven
16:06:10 <elliott> ^ this is idiotic and condescending towards oklopol
16:06:18 <j-invariant> 16:05 < elliott> 23:29:42 <cheater00> <cheater00> every finite sequence has an infinity of possible continuations
16:06:36 <elliott> j-invariant: however, cheater00 was repeating it over and over, acting like oklopol didn't know it,
16:06:39 <cheater00> someone's got a chip on their shoulder
16:06:41 <elliott> j-invariant: and trying to use it to "disprove" that Clue works
16:06:58 <elliott> the fact is that that theorem has basically NO relevance ...ever...
16:07:16 <cheater00> we're back to elliott making up bs
16:07:31 <cheater00> as usual when he's pissed off at something in his life and wants to channel it onto *someone*
16:07:54 <j-invariant> how is that not an attempt to make things worse?
16:08:08 <cheater00> my conversation with oklopol was fairly relaxed.
16:08:22 <cheater00> j-invariant: what i just said about elliott?
16:08:27 <elliott> lol @ logs, cheater00, always the psychoanalyst
16:08:44 <cheater00> j-invariant: how can it possibly get worse when i address the immediate problem at hand?
16:08:49 <elliott> i wonder what kind of person it takes to be a persistent troll without actually actively trying to _troll_, and then acting really stupid whenever anyone treats him like a troll
16:08:53 <j-invariant> llol at putting someone onn ignore then just reading what they say anyway X)
16:09:15 <elliott> j-invariant: it's great because i can just ignore 90% of it and yell at them for the remaining 10%
16:09:32 <Sgeo> elliott, Atomo: Nice language or piece of crap? Same question for Slate
16:09:53 <j-invariant> What's atomo and isn't slate that copycat thing
16:09:54 <Vorpal> <elliott> lol @ logs, cheater00, always the psychoanalyst <-- what exactly is the point of /ignore then :P
16:09:56 <elliott> Sgeo: try deciding yourself...unless you're going through like 498543795345794354354 languages and need a reply
16:10:08 <j-invariant> elliott: he is going through the whole list
16:10:12 <elliott> Vorpal: gets him angry, lets me ignore 90% of what he says without my irc client beeping
16:10:21 <Sgeo> It's just that Atomo and Slate are... similar
16:10:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh you have it beep your speakers?
16:10:27 <elliott> not really. not at all in fact.
16:10:32 <elliott> Vorpal: when someone highlights me, yes. i find it useful.
16:10:35 <j-invariant> atomo: Hey guys, guys check this out: What if we took scheme right.. and then ... changed the syntax to look like ruby!
16:10:55 <cheater00> elliott: being on ignore doesn't make me angry, you making up bs and getting angry at me for no reason like a hormonal 13 year old girl on a rag makes me angry
16:10:56 <elliott> Sgeo: atomo i don't...care about... at all... it's just...not interesting in the slightest and doesn't innovate at all really
16:11:05 <Vorpal> elliott, i just make it flash the emacs "button" in the taskbar.
16:11:23 <elliott> Sgeo: slate is interesting! i have talked to the people behind it. it's prototype-based but with multiple-dispatch.
16:11:32 <elliott> but...it's still a mutable, imperative OO language
16:11:40 <elliott> and i'm completely sick of them.
16:11:42 <Sgeo> Isn't Atomo also prototype-based with multiple-dispatch?
16:11:46 <elliott> they are very much not the way forward.
16:11:48 <elliott> Sgeo: i don't know nor care
16:12:03 <elliott> okay, looks like it. but it's irrelevant.
16:12:07 <elliott> firstly, it's just a toy language.
16:12:14 <elliott> secondly, Erlang's concurrency model sucks.
16:12:21 <elliott> thirdlyi t's just ... how can you even get interested in it
16:12:30 <elliott> it is impossible to care about
16:12:54 <elliott> also it has macros, which are anti-features.
16:13:01 <Sgeo> It's like a prettier Slate.. missing some Slate stuff
16:13:16 <elliott> j-invariant: "features" that make a language worse
16:13:19 <Sgeo> @ is not pretty
16:13:21 <elliott> j-invariant: example: mutability
16:13:26 <Sgeo> The rest of it is, @ is not.
16:13:33 <elliott> Sgeo: good to know we're still extremely superficial
16:13:53 <Sgeo> Although.. it might be easier to understand than whatever magic Atomo does
16:14:12 <elliott> atomo also has bad concurrency and macros, as i said. two points against it.
16:14:18 <elliott> also, slate is an actual project, atomo is a toy language.
16:14:27 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> also it has macros, which are anti-features. ← even the Lispy ones?
16:14:32 <Sgeo> Slate seems to have taken a hiatus, and is just now waking up
16:14:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: pretty much.
16:14:47 <elliott> Sgeo: it has been going since the 90s. their irc channel is relatively active.
16:14:58 <elliott> Sgeo: it still works fine. :p
16:14:59 <Sgeo> The huge manual is supposedly obsolete, there are no up-to-date binaries
16:15:09 <elliott> slate.little.32.2011-01-01.image.bz2
16:15:09 <elliott> slate.little.64.2010-04-01.image.bz2
16:15:12 <elliott> Sgeo: no up to date binaries?
16:15:20 <Sgeo> I stand corrected
16:15:29 <Sgeo> "Release Overview (Currently Old Releases Only)"
16:15:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: (f (g hello) (h))
16:15:31 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: this can't be the same as
16:15:37 <Sgeo> Why do they say "old releases only" then?
16:15:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: (let ((hello 2)) (f (g hello) (h))
16:15:46 <elliott> Sgeo: those are snapshots, I believe
16:15:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: basically... you can't rely on anything with function applications
16:15:58 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: every invariant breaks
16:16:47 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: it is possible to manage this but i'm gradually and gradually getting more pissed off that the computer doesn't tell me when i did something stupid
16:16:56 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: also, 60% of what you want macros for can be done with lazy evaluation.
16:17:30 <Sgeo> Ioke differentiates between macros and functions such that macros are just functions that are call-by-name, Io style
16:17:43 <elliott> the remaining 40% can be either reworked to be slightly different and not require a macro somehow, or can be done with something like Template Haskell that, yes, is big and ugly to use, but you get signs in your code yelling "HEY I AM CALLING A MACRO HERE", and besides, you shouldn't use it much anyway
16:18:01 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: also: macros introduce more of a "compile time"
16:18:08 <elliott> whereas lazy evaluation doesn'
16:18:52 <Sgeo> elliott, how out of date is http://files.slatelanguage.com/progman/ ?
16:20:51 <Sgeo> "their irc channel is relatively active."
16:21:19 <elliott> Sgeo: perhaps because they haven't had a sgeo to irritate them.
16:27:17 <j-invariant> so I have to somehow aquire like a million iron ingots
16:27:35 <j-invariant> so I can make a track from the spawnpoint to somewhre interesting
16:27:52 <elliott> j-invariant: make sure to make it underground :P
16:27:58 <elliott> or high in the air would probably be ok
16:28:01 <elliott> j-invariant: mobs will walk on it
16:28:05 <Sgeo> Also need to install git
16:28:10 <elliott> and your booster energy will go
16:28:15 <elliott> j-invariant: make sure to use boosters, not powered minecrats
16:28:21 <elliott> unless you want a really slow ride
16:28:31 <elliott> j-invariant: impossible :) but boosters are close
16:28:37 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart_booster
16:28:57 <elliott> j-invariant: it's a "bug" but although some people it's being fixed i'm not sure it will be in the short term at all, everyone uses them
16:29:03 <elliott> and it's SO MUCH FASTER than powered carts
16:29:41 <elliott> j-invariant: well. some people say it is but i haven't actually seen evidence
16:29:52 <elliott> j-invariant: anyway, easy enough to convert to whatever it gets replaced with when that happens.
16:29:58 <elliott> just removing them would be a joke, powered carts are useless
16:29:58 <Sgeo> Actually, I think I understand @ a bit better
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16:30:05 <elliott> use a minecart enhancement mod if that happens :P
16:30:20 <j-invariant> wow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v5cAFYouWY#t=4m52s cool
16:30:25 <elliott> j-invariant: anyway one booster can keep you going for hundreds of blocks
16:30:29 <elliott> so you only really need...one
16:31:53 <elliott> j-invariant: btw, an "easy" way to make a resetting booster is to make it go upwarda fater the cart leaves and hit a wall :D
16:31:59 <elliott> but using the south-west rule is more reliable
16:35:09 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19PZA1tnKtg cool
16:36:37 <Sgeo> elliott, Slate has macros
16:37:17 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PA2uLm8ups enjoy being crepeed out
16:37:44 <elliott> j-invariant: pretty much :)
16:38:15 <elliott> 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: (f (g hello) (h))
16:38:15 <elliott> 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: this can't be the same as
16:38:15 <elliott> 16:15 Sgeo: Why do they say "old releases only" then?
16:38:17 <elliott> 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: (let ((hello 2)) (f (g hello) (h))
16:38:21 <elliott> 16:15 elliott: Sgeo: those are snapshots, I believe
16:38:23 <elliott> 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: basically... you can't rely on anything with function applications
16:38:25 <elliott> 16:15 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: every invariant breaks
16:38:27 <elliott> 16:16 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: it is possible to manage this but i'm gradually and gradually getting more pissed off that the computer doesn't tell me when i did something stupid
16:38:29 <elliott> 16:16 elliott: Phantom__Hoover: also, 60% of what you want macros for can be done with lazy evaluation.
16:38:31 <elliott> 16:17 Sgeo: Ioke differentiates between macros and functions such that macros are just functions that are call-by-name, Io style
16:38:33 <elliott> 16:17 elliott: the remaining 40% can be either reworked to be slightly different and not require a macro somehow, or can be done with something like Template Haskell that, yes, is big and ugly to use, but you get signs in your code yelling "HEY I AM CALLING A MACRO HERE", and besides, you shouldn't use it much anyway
16:39:03 <Sgeo> Slate's macros require knowing that you're calling a macro, I think
16:40:30 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart_booster has all kinds of boosters
16:40:56 <elliott> j-invariant: lol http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/f/fa/Minecart-booster-door-1.jpg "well it's not like i haven't used 3485739845 iron anyway, i'll make some blocks of it"
16:43:35 <Sgeo> I don't like the idea that, in a message send, a clone of a clone of a clone of an object (essentially, a child) is not necessarily the same as the object itself in choosing what's dispatched
16:43:45 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm misunderstanding it
16:46:17 <elliott> Vorpal: house built on top of ice: best idea?
16:47:33 <oklopol> <elliott> oklopol: well... remind me to fix what i broke in the zip impl tomorrow. dunno what. :(. also: remind me to make that auto-realigning emacs mode. in fact just copy this to a file and restate it to me.
16:47:55 <elliott> Vorpal: oh wait bad idea, can't build underground
16:47:56 <elliott> oklopol: yess indeed i will do that in 2 min
16:49:57 <Vorpal> elliott, eh. house on top of ice sounds cool, and cold. And dark since you can't use torches
16:50:49 <Vorpal> <elliott> j-invariant: lol http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/f/fa/Minecart-booster-door-1.jpg "well it's not like i haven't used 3485739845 iron anyway, i'll make some blocks of it" <-- ignoring the iron blocks the idea is still very neat
16:51:29 <Vorpal> elliott, btw tried out the two winner texturepacks (well, not the second place one, that candy one). Both are way too dark in colours for me.
16:51:46 <Vorpal> eldpack is somewhat better when it comes to that, but still too dark
16:52:07 <Vorpal> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Minecart-booster-door-2.jpg <-- why!?
16:52:43 <Vorpal> oh I guess it can't go into the block fully
16:55:20 <elliott> OK. I built a path from spawn to my new house (out of wood markers). It's in a nice area. I have a sword.
16:55:37 <elliott> And there are no mountains to speak of nearby.
16:55:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh where is that house?
16:55:48 <Vorpal> elliott, you finally getting a house I mean
16:55:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Er, on my single-player game.
16:57:21 <elliott> "As opposed to PostScript?
16:57:21 <elliott> I learned Japanese well after I learned PostScript. It turned out to my delight that Japanese and PostScript grammar have quite a lot in common. I don't know why it hasn't made the Japanese masters at writing clever PostScript though.
16:57:26 <elliott> (oh wait is link to obfuscated raytracer in postscript)
16:57:30 <elliott> so that's why anagolf is full of postscript ;)
16:58:13 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 425, in call_clue
16:58:13 <elliott> return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim)
16:58:13 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 411, in call_branch
16:58:15 <elliott> suboutputs.append(call_clue(clue,subinputs,depth_lim-1))
16:58:17 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 425, in call_clue
16:58:19 <elliott> return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim)
16:58:20 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 411, in call_branch
16:58:23 <elliott> suboutputs.append(call_clue(clue,subinputs,depth_lim-1))
16:58:24 <elliott> File "/Users/ehird/clue/clue.py", line 425, in call_clue
16:58:27 <elliott> return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim)
16:58:29 <elliott> oklopol: that's bad, isn't it
17:02:10 <Vorpal> elliott, in /general/ backtraces probably are bad.
17:02:14 <elliott> to figure out what i broke
17:02:21 <Vorpal> elliott, though iirc there is some esolang based on error handling?
17:02:33 <elliott> Vorpal: no this is example based programming, the most powerful paradigm
17:02:38 <elliott> and i lost all my py files and my release doesn't work
17:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say that one was based on errors
17:02:50 <Vorpal> elliott, please read what I said :)
17:03:09 <elliott> oklopol: oh wait... it actually works, just depth limit errors turn into stack overflows
17:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott, <Vorpal> elliott, though iirc there is some esolang based on error handling? <elliott> Vorpal: no this is example based programming, the most powerful paradigm <-- this exchange makes no sense
17:03:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> and i lost all my py files and my release doesn't work <-- how?
17:04:10 <elliott> rm *.pyc ----> rm *.py, and no, i'm not going to alias it into rm -i, i'm just going to be more careful
17:04:26 <elliott> now i'm just trying to figure out why the zip i made doesn't work the same
17:04:27 <Vorpal> elliott, a decent compromise might be rm -I ?
17:04:39 <elliott> my rm does not have that option :)
17:05:03 <Vorpal> elliott, oh okay. For being a GNU extension (I assume) it is damn useful
17:07:03 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/EAUF didn't quite realise how tiny the Luatre implementation is
17:07:44 <elliott> a language for calling Clue programs, basically.
17:07:49 <elliott> luatre, the clue bot, uses it.
17:07:52 <elliott> and also the clue repl i wrote.
17:08:13 <Vorpal> elliott, the function names...?
17:08:45 <elliott> Vorpal: well "eval" is python's.
17:08:55 <Vorpal> elliott, also where is "cabinetoflaughter" called apart from inside itself?
17:09:02 <elliott> Vorpal: um that's a module
17:09:06 <elliott> for instance the repl and the bot
17:09:11 <elliott> cabinetoflaughter is just your eval func, obviously
17:09:12 <Vorpal> elliott, oh so it isn't the whole thing then
17:09:17 <elliott> it's the whole language impl
17:09:22 <elliott> cabinetoflaughter(park(code)[0]) is what other things do
17:10:10 <Vorpal> elliott, are the other functions part of the public API too?
17:10:20 <Vorpal> (doesn't python use some special naming convention for private?)
17:10:31 <oklopol> nothing is public, clue and all tools related to it are closed source
17:10:45 <Vorpal> oklopol, a very different sense of public :P
17:10:59 <oklopol> unless you really want to distribute them and download them for free
17:11:25 <oklopol> oh indeed, i didn't read context at all
17:11:26 <elliott> oklopol: is it ok if the interp stack overflows sometimes rather than, say, raising a depth overflow thingy
17:11:51 <oklopol> not really, if that means the program crashes
17:11:58 <oklopol> i don't care what error messages say tho
17:12:07 <oklopol> also, it's your interpreter, what does my opinion matter
17:12:19 <elliott> oklopol: it's your interp that i'm modifying :p
17:12:26 <elliott> suboutputs.append(call_clue(clue,subinputs,depth_lim-1))
17:12:31 <oklopol> i figured you were just asking
17:12:34 <elliott> shouldn't that immediately return None if that returns none?
17:12:37 <oklopol> what luatre should print out or something
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17:13:05 <oklopol> well i don't care what luatre prints out
17:13:42 <oklopol> "<elliott> yeah?" meant "yes, it's luatre whose output we're talking about"
17:13:50 <oklopol> which i don't care about, as such
17:14:16 <oklopol> yeah you can make it immediately return none
17:14:16 <elliott> that should be return None right..?
17:14:24 <elliott> also, i tried that, but it didn't stop the stack overflow, so nm :)
17:14:32 <elliott> but yeah shouldn't nothing here be None...
17:14:41 <oklopol> right runtime errors are currently "nothing here" :D
17:14:50 <oklopol> but yeah you should totally change all those to None
17:14:58 <Vorpal> elliott, btw if you use version control rm *.py will be non-fatal (sure, changes since last commit would be lost)
17:15:08 <Vorpal> (but that is much less of a problem)
17:15:08 <elliott> Vorpal: it's oklopol. so no
17:15:11 <oklopol> because failed runs will also return "nothing here"'s when you use them for inference
17:15:16 <elliott> oklopol: except i think it's a compile time error too
17:15:23 <oklopol> i've used a version control system once!
17:15:43 <oklopol> the program was called tortoisesvn
17:15:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, turns out the N900 default camera app also has a manual white-balance knob nowadays (added by one of the firmware updates, I think); it still doesn't really have any other manual controls (like exposure/focus), but at least that's something.
17:16:01 <fizzie> That's a Windows Subversion client.
17:16:02 <elliott> oklopol: i changed all one instance and nothing changed :D
17:16:18 -!- cheater- has joined.
17:16:57 <oklopol> if there's a stack overflow, then clearly the "nothing here" thing is not reached, as that cuts the search.
17:17:04 <elliott> oklopol: because i'm getting a stack overflow when given a wrong program and depth_lim should be catching it!!
17:17:16 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:17:20 <elliott> also, i'm not sure it does, there's no checks for nothing here :D
17:17:21 <oklopol> if your depth_lim is small enough, then sure
17:17:49 <oklopol> but the search should never be able to continue more than depth lim deep
17:17:51 <elliott> vrs=",".join(["n"+str(i) for i in xrange(n)])
17:17:51 <elliott> l="lambda "+vrs+" : f("+vrs+")"
17:18:09 <oklopol> is depth lim always decremented when you recurse in the interp?
17:18:19 <elliott> oklopol: it's YOUR interp :D
17:18:34 <elliott> if not demolishing_done or not first_round:
17:18:40 <elliott> not sure what that's about, you added it
17:18:40 <oklopol> note that it's possible that there's a huge stack of functions calls that were inferred, and can't be caught by the interp
17:20:21 <elliott> i guess so, changing it doesn't do anything
17:20:29 <elliott> lesson: don't write invalid programs
17:21:01 <Sgeo> elliott, ANIC. Worth learning or illegible mess?
17:21:11 <Sgeo> Dataflow programming sounds fun
17:21:20 <oklopol> have you tried example-driven programming?
17:21:41 -!- luatre has joined.
17:21:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Tried it out on the boat (they have that "promenade" walking-thing) but unfortunately it has randomly cycling coloured lighting, which pretty much does the same thing as a randomly fluctuating white-balance.
17:22:10 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6237641484.txt
17:22:11 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
17:22:11 <luatre> Compiled in 0.0759010314941 seconds
17:22:11 <luatre> factorial: [#0] | _ => factorial loop(#0 1)
17:22:11 <luatre> stack-hogging factorial: [#0] | 0 => multiply(pred(0) pred(0)) | _ => multiply(#0 @(pred(#0)))
17:22:11 <luatre> factorial loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) multiply(#0 #1))
17:22:11 <luatre> fibonacci: [#0] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(#0 0 1)
17:22:12 <luatre> fast fibonacci loop: [#0] | 0 => #1 | _ => @(pred(#0) #2 add(#1 #2))
17:22:12 <luatre> slow fibonacci: [#0] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(#0)) @(pred(pred(#0))))
17:22:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh right you are in Sweden now?
17:22:20 <luatre> 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000L
17:22:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, I was on Saturday; we're home now.
17:22:40 <elliott> oklopol: how hard would it be to make the interp tail-recursive? i'm guessing very
17:25:09 <oklopol> easiest way would be to notice tail rcursion at runtime, and just hack up a tail recursive python call
17:25:22 <oklopol> but, i'd just compile to bytecode, in which case it's eay
17:27:40 <elliott> there are no tail recursive python calls really :)
17:27:44 <oklopol> hmm, yeah i don't know if there's a way to easily make a while loop out of that, it would get messy with functions that can branch in multiple ways
17:27:45 <elliott> oklopol: def name(n):return map(chr,range(97,123))[n%26]+"'"*(n/26)
17:27:51 <elliott> oklopol: thought you might enjoy that function
17:27:58 <oklopol> it's not that hard to change the contents of the stack
17:28:11 <elliott> it gives a,b,c,...,z,a',b',..,z',a'',b'',...,...,f''''
17:30:49 <elliott> >>> dict(enumerate([1,2,3]))
17:31:00 <elliott> r='('+', '.join(names)+') => ['+past(clue.condast,dict(enumerate(names)))+'] '
17:31:35 <elliott> oklopol: so have you added constants to branchers yet :D
17:31:44 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[afk].
17:32:07 <fizzie> map(chr,range(97,123))[n%26] looks far more sensibly written as chr(97+n%26).
17:34:29 <elliott> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object
17:34:33 <elliott> oklopol: i broke qsort:DDDD
17:35:00 <elliott> Exception: Syntax error: ,[2]]]]
17:35:04 <elliott> there is no , in the source
17:35:16 <oklopol> recursion depth is exceeded
17:35:58 <elliott> oklopol: DONE CONSTANTS IN BRANCHERS YET?
17:37:20 <elliott> oklopol: will you ever or do i have to SLAVE over the code.
17:38:21 <oklopol> well i might even do it today, it's like two lines of code
17:38:25 <elliott> omg the output is almost beautiful :DD
17:38:32 <oklopol> but i should really try to read these couple of pages i have left
17:39:02 <elliott> btw you know that your compare function is just python's cmp? :D
17:40:52 <oklopol> so my function check fails
17:41:00 <elliott> the body can be replaced :P
17:41:04 <elliott> oklopol: so wait is it cmp or -cmp
17:41:09 <oklopol> well that is of course true
17:41:12 <elliott> if not isint(a,b):return None
17:41:18 <oklopol> those are the same thing in clue
17:41:19 <elliott> because it changes the behaviour? :D
17:41:43 <oklopol> yeah, that's probably the awesomest thing about the language
17:41:52 <oklopol> you can change even the interface of functions
17:42:02 <elliott> ski apply only has one parameter
17:42:20 <Sgeo> I think I just had an effect on the evolution of Slate and Atomo
17:42:42 <elliott> i already replace helper objs
17:43:03 <oklopol> Sgeo: did you hear that in example-driven programming, you can change the sign of the output of your api function, and no one using that function will have to change their code. well, usually anyway.
17:43:19 <oklopol> that's the latest buzz of the example-driven programming community
17:43:30 <oklopol> btw is there such a term already, i didn't actualyl check :D
17:43:36 <Sgeo> oklopol, um... what? How does that happen?
17:43:48 <oklopol> elliott: no idea what #1 and #2 are.
17:44:03 <elliott> i like how printing this is fucking hard
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17:44:21 <oklopol> i should probably try to find out how that numbering thing works at some point
17:44:33 <oklopol> or better yet, you should :D
17:44:35 <elliott> i have a feeling it's like
17:44:59 <elliott> oklopol: what i'm doing if you can't tell, is naming the arguments
17:45:09 <oklopol> well i could've guessed that
17:45:14 <elliott> just because it WASN'T READABLE ENOUGH
17:45:34 <elliott> okay...deep first's compilation is...very very wrong :D
17:45:42 <elliott> oklopol: you should see this:
17:46:33 <oklopol> one idea that i had was that 5x"."'d be used for these sort of clue lambdas, where you give an example of a subcomputation; unfortunately this would mean you could just show it the whole computation
17:46:48 <Sgeo> elliott, is Mozart/Oz dead?
17:47:17 <elliott> oklopol: clue has figured out that if car returns None
17:47:27 <elliott> and so it can return the element directly
17:47:40 <elliott> deep first([[1] 2]) -> deep first([1]) -> deep first(1) -> car returns None -> 1
17:47:44 <elliott> oklopol: it also has a default branch
17:47:49 <elliott> and both are represented in the ast by None :D
17:47:57 <elliott> oklopol: tl;dr your code doesn't give up on None for some reason
17:48:04 <elliott> so it's actually matching on None itself
17:48:24 <oklopol> it's very possible that that's true
17:48:30 <oklopol> i haven't thought about failing at all
17:48:41 <elliott> oklopol: so what functions actually call to test things :P
17:48:55 <elliott> oklopol: ALSO surely raising some special exception would be more reliable than None
17:49:16 <oklopol> the compiler makes sure that all computation is legal, and no Nones are seen
17:49:31 <elliott> oklopol: well it...doesn't :)
17:49:35 <elliott> otherwise this func would never be generated
17:50:05 <elliott> umm the [] bit is the condition
17:50:28 <elliott> case car(a) of None -> a; _ -> recurse(car(a))
17:50:31 <elliott> which should never be generated, of course
17:50:47 <elliott> case is list?(a) of 0 -> a; 1 -> recurse(car(a))
17:50:53 <elliott> oklopol: do you want my current files :P
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17:53:54 <oklopol> car should throw an exception if it's called with illegal input during search
17:54:06 <oklopol> and in that case, the resulting object is not added to the list of available objects
17:54:10 <elliott> oklopol: where do you call functions in a search?
17:54:17 <oklopol> newobj=applier(fun,subsetobjs)
17:54:22 <elliott> oklopol: yeah no i removed that :D
17:54:31 <elliott> newobj=applier(fun,subsetobjs)
17:54:37 <elliott> car DOES return None given illgeal input
17:54:42 <oklopol> well obviously it doesn't work if you break it
17:54:47 <elliott> if not isinstance(l,list) or not l:return None
17:54:57 <elliott> so it gives exactly the same results
17:55:03 <elliott> because you do the same on newobj==None and <exception raised>
17:55:16 <oklopol> i do, so what, it doesn't work after that correction?
17:55:46 <elliott> oklopol: i'd like to point out that i removed it so that i got useful exceptions rather than "depth limit" for all of them :)
17:55:53 <elliott> considering the way of failure is to return None
17:56:03 <oklopol> yeah yeah it was a good change, if you fixed functins appropriately
17:56:07 <elliott> oklopol: anyway, i have no idea why it wouldn't work in my version, since it's functionally equivalent, are you sure your version doesn't produce the same output?
17:56:28 <oklopol> i'm not sure my version doesn't produce the same output, no
17:56:34 <oklopol> i don't have a good way to check
17:56:42 <elliott> python cluetest.py numplay.clue
17:56:48 <elliott> remember to fix the 3 -> 6 example in factorial first
17:57:47 -!- VelcroMan has joined.
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17:59:11 <elliott> hmm this person must be an esolanger...
17:59:27 <Sgeo> elliott, you must tell me your thoughts on Oz. I'll tell you my thoughts: It's large, but... fascinating. Just wish I was more confident that it was actively worked on
18:00:18 <oklopol> erm, can i give parameters to the program from the IDE, adding python to my command line path sounds like a chore, and the default python is 3.1 so i can't drag and drop; you don't use the same IDE tho
18:00:50 <elliott> oklopol: import sys; sys.argv=['','numplay.clue']; import cluetest
18:02:29 <oklopol> a fucking million useless settings for permissions, but you can't make python.exe not fucking close the terminal after running
18:02:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:02:52 <elliott> oklopol: trying it from the cmd line instead? :p
18:02:55 <oklopol> i hate command line arguments
18:03:02 <elliott> oklopol: just do it in cmd.exe and write out the full path to python or something
18:03:09 <elliott> it might actually be in the path
18:04:39 <oklopol> python is not in the path even though i have three versions of it installed.
18:04:41 <elliott> comment out the import readline in cluetest.py
18:04:48 <elliott> it's ... sort of not windows-tuned, thsi
18:05:34 <oklopol> wait why am i running numplay?
18:05:41 <elliott> oklopol: ...good question!
18:05:49 <elliott> might wanna turn on demolishing
18:06:18 <oklopol> with the same error you pasted
18:06:29 <elliott> oklopol: yeah it's a bug in ski.clue
18:07:38 <oklopol> now it just plain old can't compile
18:08:45 <oklopol> what the fuck, YOU CAN'T COPYPASTE FROM THE COMMAND LINE WINDOW IN WINDOWS 7
18:08:57 <elliott> you have to right click the title bar and click mark
18:09:05 <elliott> you've always had to do that
18:09:13 <oklopol> yes, and you STILL have to do it
18:09:18 <elliott> oklopol: dude, use it from idle, it'd be nicer prolly
18:09:58 -!- VelcroMan has left (?).
18:10:28 <oklopol> okay what, now it seems it's compiling
18:10:30 <elliott> oklopol: yeah you can just remove the readline line and then do
18:11:47 <oklopol> might be nice if you got some sort of sensible output from the compiler if you asked
18:12:09 <elliott> .load printso ut all the compiled ASTs
18:12:29 <elliott> oklopol: i might add that, once I can figure out whether the breakage is yours or mine :>
18:12:33 <oklopol> actually it's taking so long i doubt it'll actually happen
18:12:42 <elliott> oklopol: did you enable destructing
18:13:15 <oklopol> no, but when i enable it, it gives the compile error, it seems
18:13:27 <oklopol> Traceback (most recent call last):
18:13:28 <oklopol> File "<pyshell#0>", line 1, in <module>
18:13:28 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff\clue\cluetest.py", line 55, in <module>
18:13:28 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff\clue\cluetest.py", line 48, in refresh
18:13:28 <oklopol> funcs,asts=clue.compile_all(open(filename).read(),stuff.funcs)
18:13:29 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff\clue\clue.py", line 708, in compile_all
18:13:29 <oklopol> [i+"("+unfounds[i]+")" for i in compilees if not compilees[i].iscompiled]))
18:13:30 <oklopol> Exception: Can't compile deep first with cutoff(depth of first), depth of first(inc), ski type?(depth of first), ski apply(ski type?)
18:13:35 <elliott> oklopol: change inc to succ
18:14:00 <oklopol> what a clear error message
18:14:11 <elliott> yeah it should probably be topographically sorted or sth
18:14:32 <elliott> inc would be last, if that were so
18:14:53 <oklopol> yeah not sorted in that message, but compilation of course sorts
18:15:07 <oklopol> because you can't compile if there's an uncompiled function in your bag
18:17:47 <elliott> writing a clue editor first
18:19:21 <oklopol> lambdas would not only allow cheating, they would also make functions significantly uglier, because you'd have your clue cluttered with completely meaningless snippets of dataflow
18:19:49 <elliott> best user-hostile language veer
18:20:40 <oklopol> you wouldn't lose stuff like being able to flip the sign of compare tho
18:21:08 <oklopol> what about like [1, 2, 3] -> [2, 3] -> [3] for cddr for instance
18:21:40 <oklopol> with the meaning that the middle objects are just hints, "this object is useful!"
18:21:41 <elliott> oklopol: for recursion you mean?
18:21:53 <elliott> oklopol: that owuld be nice but what semantics would it have
18:22:16 <oklopol> at the level of what functions compile to
18:22:35 <oklopol> more like standardized compiler directive
18:22:49 <j-invariant> $db = new $class( $this->backupServer(), $wgDBadminuser, $wgDBadminpassword, $wgDBname, false, $flags );
18:22:57 <elliott> j-invariant: OH GOD STOP IT
18:23:06 <j-invariant> $wgDBtype is something like 'SQL' or 'PGSQL'
18:23:12 <elliott> STOPSTOPSTPOSTSPTJSPOTJSOPTJOPSTJOPSJTPOSJTPESRJGOIDKLFGMLKHFGJ
18:23:17 <j-invariant> and there are classes DatabaseSQL and DatabasePGSQL
18:23:24 <oklopol> basically, my idea was that in a_1 -> ... -> a_n, first a_2 would be found using a_1, then all state would be dropped, and another search would be started for a_3 from a_1 and a_2
18:24:05 <oklopol> which sounds really stupid of course, dropping state essentially means you'll make the same objects again :D
18:24:37 <oklopol> but, you would've sort of reached a milestone
18:25:04 <oklopol> also, btw, it should definitely be possible to ask the compiler that the bottleneck is
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18:25:27 <oklopol> i mean, there are a fixed number of searches, you could just make them store compilation times automatically
18:26:37 <oklopol> elliott: you removed the check for default==None between
18:26:38 <oklopol> return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim)
18:27:05 <elliott> return call_branch(clue,i,args,depth_lim)
18:27:11 <elliott> return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim)
18:27:33 <elliott> oklopol: well that's my clue.py
18:27:51 <oklopol> default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1]
18:27:51 <oklopol> return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim)
18:28:06 <oklopol> i think i mentioned this to you, but it may have been a change after you last got my code
18:28:23 <oklopol> that [-1] thing you're gonna mention
18:28:49 <oklopol> that change means that all functions are total.
18:28:59 <oklopol> currently, it's possible they are inferred non-total
18:29:19 <oklopol> that is, it's possible that there is actually no default branch, now the default branch is the last one
18:29:36 <oklopol> ! should be used for failure explicitly, should be easy to add
18:32:32 <oklopol> one way is that ! is just added as a separate object in the clue object parser, and it simply evaluates to a None.
18:32:44 <oklopol> i believe that'd do the trick
18:32:46 <elliott> oklopol: i'm pretty confused now
18:33:16 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, how many blocks would ROU be now again when finished. Approx?
18:33:24 <elliott> oklopol: can i have your .pys
18:33:48 <oklopol> the important thing: add "if default==None:default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1]"
18:33:50 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, ah and why didn't movecraft work for this?
18:34:15 <oklopol> i haven't done any changes to my old files, or your files, but you can have my old files if you really want to.
18:34:28 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, it has a built-in threshold of 1000 blocks; this is changeable, apparently, but I have a suspicion it'd clobber the memory and CPU to actually move something that big.
18:35:10 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, right. So making that castle I'm building on my local test server (because single player is horribly laggy since beta) fly is not realistic then
18:35:28 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, it has over 60000 obsidian alone :)
18:36:05 <Phantom__Hoover> Also, the algorithm for separating the ship from everything else would probably mess it up.
18:36:19 * Sgeo gets a headache trying to talk to someone
18:36:29 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, and iirc over 500 000 stone (though hard to measure with such tools, the terrain below it is very uneven.
18:36:30 <Sgeo> [Not Alluded-To]
18:36:54 <Vorpal> (I guess anything between 150 000 and 400 000 is part of the proper castle)
18:37:08 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, oh well.
18:37:15 <oklopol> elliott: so where is the printing of the compiler output done?
18:37:33 <elliott> oklopol: i've kinda rewritten that in my version
18:37:38 <elliott> if you're going to change it thennn :P
18:37:42 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, wait, I'm testing it right now and I could place a stone block on top o my none-stone and it worked
18:37:50 <oklopol> i just want to know where the #x's come from
18:38:01 <oklopol> clearly your output lacks their origin
18:38:04 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, however, stone below or to the sides were not included
18:38:08 -!- BMG has joined.
18:38:13 <oklopol> probably because neither of us knows what they even are
18:38:17 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host).
18:38:17 -!- BMG has joined.
18:38:19 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, but only if placed more or less inside the craft
18:38:20 -!- BMG has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
18:38:24 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, (it was a ship)
18:38:42 -!- drakhan has quit (Quit: Wychodzi).
18:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, any block that is not a stone (and implicitly in this context: not air or a fluid either)
18:39:39 <Sgeo> I think this person's text messaging stuff is delayed by a few messages
18:39:53 <Sgeo> And for some reason, her texts include my text.
18:40:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, the other reason a flying castle is impractical: MoveCraft empties chests.
18:40:59 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the largest structure known to have been done in MC so far? Largest as in most blocks placed.
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18:41:15 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, ah yes that is indeed a known bug
18:41:19 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:41:23 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, at least it is on the todo-list
18:41:53 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, also it doesn't rotate crafts yet. Meaning you better make it rotationally symmetric for now
18:42:24 <elliott> oklopol: my clue editor is a total nazi
18:42:30 <elliott> oklopol: it reformats your code every time you do anything :D
18:42:45 * Sgeo fantasizes about war on a MoveCraft server
18:43:00 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about your fantasies!
18:43:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what about largest bounding box (in a single direction)
18:43:07 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, aww, darn
18:43:40 <Sgeo> Although I was thinking more of dropping TNT from ships than cannons on.. no, I was thinking cannons on ships too, more for defense
18:43:43 <Phantom__Hoover> What is it with the people who act like playing MC on peaceful is a personal insult?
18:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, considering something like a 1x1x4000 cobbblestone thingy
18:44:29 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about your fantasies! <-- just ignore it, that /me you did above was perfectly okay IMO
18:44:58 <Phantom__Hoover> [[ * Notch made a tweet on October 22nd 2010, stating that "I'm changing "difficulty" to "realism". Lowest setting = creative. Highest setting = starve" ]]
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18:45:17 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, haven't happened so far yeah
18:45:32 <Sgeo> Notch is just like me1
18:45:34 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: that's the one thing i'd change about mc
18:45:40 <Sgeo> [In the always taking hiatuses aspect]
18:45:41 <oklopol> thank god notch noticed it
18:46:08 <oklopol> elliott: so umm the #'s are just helper objects + inputs + subrec outputs, as one might imagine
18:46:15 <oklopol> it says so quite clearly in your code
18:46:20 <elliott> oklopol: sure but there's more than there should be :D
18:46:25 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, btw craftbook is cool
18:46:27 <elliott> oklopol: for instance #1 and #2 in ski apply
18:46:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Because it's completely unrealistic not to have malicious creatures unrelentingly stalk you during the night
18:46:39 <elliott> and those are _inside_ the subrec _inputs_
18:47:03 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I have portcullises that can open and such now
18:47:11 <oklopol> well subrec inputs can be calculated from outputs of previous subrecs
18:47:15 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:47:16 <oklopol> so i don't see what the problem is
18:48:10 <oklopol> in ski apply, when #1 and #2 are used, they refer to the outputs of the first and second subrec, and they are first used in the third case
18:48:55 <elliott> oklopol: right! but #1 and #2 should get inlined
18:49:14 <oklopol> rrrrrrright i was being a retard
18:49:19 <elliott> nrpls['#'+str(i.get_arity()+len(clue.helper_objs)+sub)] = past(rrgs,rpls)
18:49:23 <elliott> notice the lack of using nrpls there
18:49:28 <oklopol> i was thinking like of a completely different thing
18:50:46 <oklopol> why do you rename to nrpls midway?
18:51:15 <elliott> it only applies for that one branch
18:51:30 <elliott> | 4 => @(pair(#1 ski type?(cdr(a))))
18:51:32 <elliott> bugger, still doesn't work
18:52:27 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, movecraft fails at shadows. There is a shadow matching my aircraft on ground. Far from where the aircraft actually is currently
18:52:45 <oklopol> rrgs.append(past(i.getsubast(sub,ar),rpls)) should use nrpls
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18:54:34 <oklopol> elliott: well, did you fix it?
18:55:05 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, also why does lightstone give shadows on ground
18:55:16 <Vorpal> since it is as bright as the sun...
18:55:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, yes, but it has z-axis attenuation, while the sun doesn't.
18:55:41 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, good point
18:57:08 <elliott> | 3 => @(pair(@(pair(cadaar(a) ski type?(cdr(a)))) @(pair(cadar(a) ski type?(cdr(a))))))
18:57:09 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, hm flying minecart. That should be possible to make smooth
18:57:33 * Sgeo imagines huge Obsidian bunkers, for things such as mining flint from gravel
18:57:34 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, or flying boat (boat as in boat-crafted-in-workbench)
18:57:34 <oklopol> wait what, it actually infers that whole thing?
18:57:36 <elliott> oklopol: turning on destructing makes it do the bad version, I think
18:57:37 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, did you try to move a craft with a minecart on it?
18:58:01 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I haven't
18:58:09 <Sgeo> In theory, with time+patience, all gravel can be turned into flint?
18:58:21 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, but I wonder. if you could not make smooth movements instead of the one block at a time thing
18:58:21 <oklopol> elliott: no it doesn't, at least in mine
18:58:25 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, with a mod
18:58:29 <oklopol> i can't even compile ski without demolishing
18:58:33 <elliott> default=clue.branches[len(clue.branches)-1]
18:58:33 <elliott> ^^ so do I want to add this in?
18:58:49 <elliott> done, let's see if it does anything
18:58:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, not without radical alterations to MC, which is outside the scope of hMod's plugin architecture.
18:58:53 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, you can get flying boat when you time out and are in a boat and falling down. So clearly it will work on the client side
18:59:04 <impomatic> Hmmm... does anyone know how I can work out the position of the rightmost 1 bit without using bitwise operations? (n & -n normally does the trick)
18:59:20 <elliott> oklopol: that's WITH your fix, can i have your clue.py and stuff.py?
18:59:21 <oklopol> elliott: after adding that, the order of examples matters, which i'm not sure i like
18:59:28 <oklopol> but it's better than not having it, still
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19:00:11 <Vorpal> impomatic, n & -n assumes two-complement doesn't it?
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19:00:56 <impomatic> Vorpal: yes, that's one of the problems.
19:01:15 <Vorpal> impomatic, hah! And here I was trying to make a silly remark :P
19:01:17 <oklopol> elliott: okay, in that case make it return None, otherwise it'll be order-dependent anyway
19:01:31 <Vorpal> impomatic, now I'm interested, what language or platform are you targeting here?
19:01:39 <oklopol> if you make it return None, you basically have an implicit default branch that fails.
19:01:55 <elliott> oklopol: still does it though :)
19:02:33 <oklopol> i really think you should have that order-dependence thing, actually, it just makes everything so much simpler.
19:03:09 <impomatic> Vorpal: I'm optimizing a non-recursive program to draw this: http://twitpic.com/3nt74q
19:03:11 <oklopol> elliott: well i dunno, why didn't you save your old code so i don't have to up it
19:03:24 <elliott> oklopol: but you've evidently changed it :>
19:04:00 <Vorpal> impomatic, why not make it recursive
19:04:02 <impomatic> Hmmm... pastebin.ca has been inaccessible here for a couple of days :-(
19:04:10 <elliott> oklopol: well i didn't remove that defaulting thing
19:04:11 <Vorpal> impomatic, also what sort of signed integers does redcode use?
19:04:17 <elliott> oklopol: so you must have added it? :/
19:04:44 <Vorpal> impomatic, use sprunge.us
19:04:49 <Vorpal> impomatic, it is good, and loads faster
19:05:50 <impomatic> Vorpal: I have a recursive program too... Redcode only has positive numbers. -x is represented as CORESIZE-x. In a normal core -1 is 7999
19:06:00 <oklopol> elliott: i haven't touched it
19:06:04 <Vorpal> impomatic, that's so wtf
19:06:16 <oklopol> well i may have, but it's unlikely that i have, more likely that the universe has a bug
19:06:56 <Vorpal> impomatic, why is it not a power of 2? Everything is better as a power of 2. No exceptions except for the exception that ternary is awesome.
19:07:16 <elliott> oklopol: should i make the editor automatically turn .. into :
19:07:24 <oklopol> upon my files says roughly so: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p5657189962.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9156561368.txt
19:07:24 <elliott> oklopol: you type .., it becomes :, type a ., it becomes :., type a dot, it becomes ::
19:07:45 <impomatic> Vorpal: coresize can be any value, but historically it's been 8000.
19:07:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> oklopol: should i make the editor automatically turn .. into :<elliott> oklopol: should i make the editor automatically turn .. into : <-- what for?
19:07:59 <elliott> Vorpal: they are equivalent in clue
19:08:00 <oklopol> so... how do you get a dot then? :D
19:08:12 <elliott> oklopol: don't type an even number of them, duh!
19:08:25 <elliott> oklopol: it's keeping your code to the Clue Standardisation Board's recommendations for colon and dot entry
19:08:45 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but why do you want to enforce using one them rather than the other
19:08:57 <elliott> + if default==None:default=clue.branches[-1]
19:09:17 <oklopol> well yeah obviously i added that one
19:09:34 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, are you using a VCS now?
19:10:10 <oklopol> well, see, yours has the slight disadvantage that you can't write *any* functions with just one example in each hint
19:10:13 <elliott> oklopol: okay our versions have no notable differences to speak of other than the exception-catching :D
19:10:31 <elliott> oklopol: well... come up with an algo that isn't order-based, any algo
19:10:59 <Sgeo> Water spouts are apparently quite resistent to explosions
19:11:11 <Vorpal> elliott, order for what?
19:11:26 <elliott> oklopol: maybe default branches need syntax :/
19:11:32 <oklopol> one way would be to have *drumroll* conditions
19:11:36 <elliott> or maybe, you know, man up and add another case
19:11:39 <Vorpal> elliott, are you trying to decide which order to try things in?
19:11:49 <elliott> stuff breaks a lot anyway :P
19:11:54 <oklopol> that was actually one of the reasons i had conditions, i just forgot about it
19:12:02 <elliott> oklopol: who cares, SO IMPURE
19:12:06 <oklopol> yeah syntax for defaults is very much okay
19:12:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what are conditions in this context and why are they impure?
19:13:07 <elliott> oklopol: ofc it breaks down when you have complex conditions nayway
19:13:14 <elliott> oklopol: i don't see what's wrong with needing two example cases
19:13:22 <oklopol> Vorpal: a condition is a function used as the parameter of the switch statement that is the body of each function.
19:13:28 <elliott> oklopol: it'll probably hardcode the 1 or something stupid like that
19:13:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, why would they be impure though?
19:14:01 <oklopol> they were removed in the form they existed in the first version of clue, and were replaced with something else, but this is slightly technical.
19:14:11 <Vorpal> oklopol, can they have side effects?
19:14:12 <Sgeo> If you have a bunch of TNT together, does it make a stronger explosion or not?
19:14:35 <oklopol> basically, you used to be able to give the toplevel function, like you could say you switch on the value of f, switch(f(...)), but ... may be guessed by the compiler in any way
19:14:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, so in what sense are they impure?
19:15:25 <oklopol> they are code written by the programmer
19:15:36 <Gregor> Jan 08 20:51:23 <Sgeo> Gregor's apples to oranges comparision convinced me to like oranges // I win forever? :P
19:15:44 <Vorpal> oklopol, but in a sense the examples is code written by the programmer.
19:15:46 <oklopol> for instance, if the output format of that function f was changed, it's possible that it can't directly be used to branch anymore.
19:16:01 <oklopol> so the compiler should be allowed to do post-processing on the value of f
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19:16:12 <oklopol> so it's impure in a very precise sense.
19:17:00 <oklopol> Vorpal: examples are code written by the programmer in a sense, sure. but the sense i'm referring to is the one that breaks the ability to change output and input protocol.
19:17:10 <oklopol> which is one of the points of clue
19:17:25 <oklopol> you don't even have to read the api, as long as you know what the functions do on an intuitive level
19:17:38 <oklopol> of course this would only be true if the compiler was 100 times faster than mine
19:19:14 <oklopol> elliott: nothing wrong with needing two example cases i guess
19:19:48 <elliott> oklopol: my editor is... so nazi
19:19:55 <oklopol> would it be wrong if 1) if there's only one branch, it's always default 2) if there's exactly one recursion, it's default if no one else is
19:20:01 <elliott> you can't insert more than one space in a row
19:20:06 <elliott> oklopol: yeah that sounds ok
19:20:12 <elliott> oklopol: since... you can't get base case recursion :D
19:20:16 <oklopol> that would be nice and practical, but kind of impure.
19:20:27 <elliott> oklopol: recursion to me basically IMPLIES some defaultness
19:20:34 <elliott> oklopol: and one branch is default by basically definition
19:20:52 <oklopol> those are *very* natural, in actual programs
19:20:53 <elliott> i'll impl that after cled works :D
19:21:08 <elliott> oklopol: well i even think "random" functions obey that too
19:21:10 <oklopol> people would basically just assume them anyway.
19:21:12 <elliott> base cases don't recurse, by definition
19:21:18 <elliott> and recursion is walking towards a base case
19:21:23 <elliott> anything that isn't a base case, covers a range of values
19:21:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> you can't insert more than one space in a row <-- how do you indent then?
19:21:40 <oklopol> you could have some function used for branching
19:21:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also what editor is this? leaden?
19:21:57 <oklopol> and you could have an infinite number of base cases, say all the cases where that function gives a positive number
19:22:09 <oklopol> and if the function gives you a 0, it means you haven't found the result yet, and have to recurse
19:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott, is it an emacs mode?
19:22:24 <oklopol> in that case it'd be the base case that's defaul
19:22:25 <elliott> oklopol: so add more than one example :>
19:22:31 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i decided it would be way too hard like that
19:22:49 <oklopol> sure sure, i'm just saying it's technically possible to have a base case be the natural default
19:23:01 <oklopol> but then you'd just need to tell the compiler that by having two examples.
19:23:04 <elliott> oklopol: it's more pure than assuming the last is default, let's put it that way.
19:23:12 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, Is it ncurses-based?
19:23:24 <elliott> because it's convenient in python
19:23:28 <elliott> and not _hideously_ ugly on os x / windows
19:23:38 <elliott> the whole UI is a text box with a scrollbar to the right anyway
19:23:44 <elliott> so it won't even be too horrid on x11 :)
19:23:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is rather ugly on linux though
19:24:05 <Vorpal> elliott, Tk scrollbars are ugly on linux
19:24:18 <Vorpal> elliott, do you use that theme thingy whatever it was called
19:24:33 <elliott> don't think tkinter can do that.
19:24:35 <elliott> i don't really care how ugly a single scrollbar is anyway :P
19:24:50 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, you don't care about aesthetics?
19:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, how unlike you!
19:27:51 <Vorpal> elliott, last xkcd is so sad, but the title text was actually quite funny.
19:29:20 <j-invariant> "If you look at these languages in order, Java, Perl, Python, you notice an interesting pattern. At least, you notice this pattern if you are a Lisp hacker. Each one is progressively more like Lisp. Python copies even features that many Lisp hackers consider to be mistakes. You could translate simple Lisp programs into Python line for line. It's 2002, and programming languages have almost caught up with 1958."
19:29:32 <Phantom__Hoover> [[Nevertheless, some historians still consider it was Hilliard who won that dude battle.]]
19:29:54 <Vorpal> j-invariant, where is that quote from?
19:30:05 <Phantom__Hoover> [[Fukutsuru died in 2005 but his frozen sperm lived on for people’s benefit.]]
19:32:34 <elliott> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects
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19:33:18 <elliott> j-invariant: you could translate simple haskell programs into dofigj line for line. it's 2032, and programming languages have almost caught up with 1994.
19:34:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I wish I lived in such a world
19:34:53 <elliott> text.delete("1.0+%dc" % idx+1, "1.0+%dc" % spc)
19:34:53 <elliott> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects
19:38:42 <elliott> A good argument for Better Grass: http://i.imgur.com/82ndJ.jpg
19:39:17 <elliott> Vorpal: have you tried http://www.largames.com/lartexture?
19:39:36 <Vorpal> j-invariant, <Vorpal> j-invariant, where is that quote from?
19:39:48 <elliott> j-invariant: different texture pack
19:40:37 <Vorpal> elliott, it looks rather flat somehow. I prefer something suggesting a real world rather than something suggestion a flat mario64-like world. But sure I'll try it some day.
19:41:23 <Vorpal> elliott, uh and? I don't want the texture to make it look flatter than the default texture pack does
19:41:46 <Vorpal> elliott, to me it looks that way
19:42:17 <elliott> text.delete("1.0+%dc" % idx+1, "1.0+%dc" % spc)
19:42:17 <elliott> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects
19:45:42 <elliott> oklopol: it would be nice if compilations could be written to a file
19:46:30 <oklopol> it could even check that the compilation is correct
19:47:06 <elliott> oklopol: i think i'm gonna make cled hold the program as a structure in memory and just write it as a string all the time...
19:47:12 <elliott> and respond to keypresses :P
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19:55:53 <elliott> oklopol: i just realised that if i make it hold it as an object i get to make a terrible terrible semantic ui for it
19:55:58 <elliott> oklopol: you are gonna use this to write all your programs right :D
19:57:09 <elliott> hey Vorpal how do you make an emacs mode
19:57:27 <Vorpal> elliott, by writing elisp and reading docs.
19:57:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't done it. I have tweaked existing ones however
19:57:43 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but, without the second thing
19:57:50 <elliott> j-invariant: well. i'm writing an editor program BUT
19:57:51 <Vorpal> j-invariant, you never answered: <Vorpal> j-invariant, <Vorpal> j-invariant, where is that quote from?
19:57:55 <elliott> it might be easier to do it as an emacs mode :D
19:58:21 <Vorpal> elliott, as in postgresql command binary prefix?
19:58:26 <Vorpal> elliott, that is all I know it as :P
19:58:30 <j-invariant> emacs modes tend to have a certain format: They have a syntax hilighter table and such
19:58:35 <Vorpal> elliott, so what do you mean by pg
19:59:13 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah but in this case I want auto-indentation which is less than trivial for clue
19:59:16 <elliott> because it depends on the first line of the block
19:59:18 <elliott> specifically the length of the name
19:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe some modes manage such auto indention
19:59:59 <Vorpal> I can't remember which ones
20:00:26 <elliott> well yeah but i want to do it easily :D
20:01:58 <Vorpal> elliott, insert fitting can-only-have-2-out-of-3 statement here
20:02:04 <elliott> eh actually i have no question really
20:02:26 <elliott> oklopol: what's the max number of examples you'd put on one line
20:02:26 <oklopol> kebab place was the complement of a set containing an open ball arouns each of its points :(
20:03:11 <oklopol> i can imagine something like . number -> number more than twice on one line
20:04:42 <elliott> less than five, so long as the result is less than 50 chars
20:04:49 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:04:56 <elliott> oklopol: because really long lines are ugly
20:04:59 <elliott> oklopol: this is the auto-formatter
20:05:09 <oklopol> oh right because ur editor hates jews
20:05:10 <elliott> oklopol: cled has kinda morphed into this thing where you edit the bags and branches and stuff as actual objects
20:05:15 <elliott> oklopol: and it just reads and writes to the files
20:05:23 <elliott> oklopol: you know... like oklOS :D
20:05:32 <oklopol> :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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20:09:19 <elliott> oklopol: should i make it impossible to put a function that doesn't exist into the bag :D
20:09:23 <elliott> nah, that's excessive. probably
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20:17:01 <elliott> more than 3 ~ {. 4 -> 1 . 5 -> 1 }
20:17:05 <elliott> oklopol: written by a program :D
20:19:18 <oklopol> now add a feature where you can write a function, and it's compiled into examples
20:19:37 <elliott> oklopol: that would officially be the most pointless combination of programs in existence
20:19:50 <elliott> oklopol: i'm considering never putting more than one example on a line...
20:22:39 <elliott> depth of first ~ {. 0 -> 0 . 5 -> 0 }
20:22:39 <elliott> depth of first ~ {:. [[1 2] [3 4]] -> 2
20:22:45 <elliott> depth of first ~ is list?; cons; car; cdr; succ; 0
20:22:47 <elliott> oklopol: written by a program :D
20:25:21 <elliott> oklopol: i think we should just make this the new official syntax for clue: http://sprunge.us/HXGG
20:25:26 <elliott> also by written, I mean turned into text, obviously
20:25:29 <elliott> it didn't actually write the program
20:25:32 <elliott> although that would be nice
20:25:51 <elliott> oklopol: ooh i'ma make the bag into a set.
20:30:36 <elliott> oklopol: um in that it's a python set :D
20:30:41 <elliott> and ordered when it gets turned into a string
20:31:10 <oklopol> err okay, that sounds like a reeeeally useful change
20:31:35 <oklopol> but i suppose it means you can't use order for optimization, which is good because the order shouldn't be meaningful.
20:31:55 <elliott> oklopol: oh no no i don't mean in clue.py
20:32:19 <elliott> oklopol: you have to tell me now that you're gonna use this thing to write all your clue programs, even though it's crazy :D
20:32:27 <Vorpal> TI-83+ is weird, it has orthogonal persistence when turning off due to no key being pressed after a number of minutes. But if you manually turn it off you get back to the basic "shell screen" (for lack of better name) next time you turn it on.
20:32:30 <pikhq> There's a film adaptation of Asimov's Foundation series coming.
20:32:58 <j-invariant> the first bit was cool but it started dragging and dragging.....
20:33:11 <elliott> pikhq: I want to be a filmmaker for the sole purpose of making Ed stories and Fine Structure into films.
20:33:23 <pikhq> To be directed by Roland Emmerich.
20:33:27 <elliott> (Yes, I have considered how to depict Unbelievable Scenes.)
20:33:47 <elliott> pikhq: 2012: It's a Disaster!
20:33:57 <pikhq> You may know him for really, really *stupid* films, such as Independence Day and The Day After Tomorrow.
20:34:20 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0
20:35:50 <pikhq> So, if this adaptation is any good at all, it will be a miracle that psychohistory could not predict at all.
20:35:55 <Phantom__Hoover> <pikhq> To be directed by Roland Emmerich. ← NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:36:30 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: At least it's not Uwe Boll.
20:36:53 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZhBParVjo
20:36:59 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Yes it would.
20:37:00 <Phantom__Hoover> At least with Uwe Boll we would know everyone would hate it!
20:37:05 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW2qxFkcLM0
20:37:58 <Phantom__Hoover> People who will not have read the book and will not see the film for the dross it will inevitably be.
20:38:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I HAVE TO FILM ED STORIES AND FINE STRUCTURE.
20:38:32 <elliott> OTHERWISE SOMEBODY, SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE, WHEN SAM HUGHES IS DEAD BUT INCREDIBLY POPULAR, SOMEONE WILL MAKE A FILM OF THEM
20:38:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I've read, like, over half of it!
20:38:46 <pikhq> Shame we can't resurrect Kubrick and have him do it.
20:38:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Really though it'd be a worthy film even just with Unbelievable Scenes and 1970—.
20:38:58 <Phantom__Hoover> Ed would really be better as an episodic miniseries thing.
20:39:10 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: At the start... but not Be Here Now onwards.
20:39:28 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Who said anything about "average-length"?
20:39:37 <Sgeo> How would you even go about turning FS into a film/
20:39:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Up to The Story So Far fits into my head-film with plenty of space left.
20:39:42 <pikhq> It'll be a 12 hour cinematic experience, I'm sure.
20:39:53 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: People watch LotR in a single sitting.
20:39:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: 3 hours, maybe?
20:39:57 <pikhq> Any further questions?
20:40:06 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq, that is two hours longer than the total length of LoTR.
20:40:15 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Not the extended editions.
20:40:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: If you can tell me why FS can't fit into three and a half hours without spoiling past The Story So Far, go ahead.
20:40:33 <Phantom__Hoover> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary.
20:40:58 <pikhq> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
20:41:34 <elliott> Anyway, with enough rejiggling of the starting bits (adding filler/transitions), Ed Stories could work as a film, I think.
20:41:35 <coppro> `addquote <Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
20:41:43 <elliott> Or maybe it could be in medias res.
20:41:52 <elliott> Starting with that moment where Ed calls up and says "hey, what did I ever invent that could work".
20:42:05 <elliott> Each invention leading to a flashback of the relevant short story. And then work Be Here Now into there somehow.
20:42:09 <HackEgo> 263) <Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
20:42:23 <coppro> I'm too lazy to fix it
20:42:31 <elliott> Gregor: what manner of witchery is this.
20:42:47 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq, I actually found the Silmarillion less dreary than LoTR because of that.
20:43:09 <elliott> I tried to read Fellowship once, and decided that Tolkien was fucking with me about 100 to 200 pages in.
20:43:10 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: You found the Silmarillion *less* dreary.
20:43:23 <pikhq> elliott: The series is worth reading. Once.
20:43:31 <elliott> j-invariant: what did you say
20:43:39 <elliott> pikhq: The movies themselves were fairly slow too, but fun.
20:44:03 <pikhq> I wish it were public domain, so it would be legal to edit out the unneeded content.
20:44:23 <j-invariant> regarding Foundation: the first bit was cool but it started dragging and dragging.....
20:44:31 <pikhq> And leave the poetry as an appendix, or a seperate volume, rather than IN THE FREAKING STORY.
20:44:32 <j-invariant> I didn't make it into the good bits, I guess
20:44:33 <elliott> oklopol: this is going to be soooo much of a semantic editor
20:44:39 <elliott> oklopol: it's gonna be RIDICULOUS
20:44:42 <pikhq> j-invariant: What was the last bit you got to?
20:44:54 <j-invariant> pikhq: I can't remember, they were making wikipedia
20:44:57 <elliott> pikhq: Lord of the Rings in 500 Pages would be a great book.
20:45:14 <pikhq> I have some issues with the movies, but they do demonstrate that, dammit, Tolkien would be much improved with editing.
20:45:30 <pikhq> Though The Hobbit does this, as well.
20:45:31 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, until pretentious literary types start badmouthing it.
20:45:51 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Oh, they can go to hell. They badmouthed the books until recently anyways.
20:46:14 <elliott> http://tolkien.slimy.com/etext/EtextChps.html what is this.
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20:46:21 <Phantom__Hoover> Because it wasn't ~deep and meaningful analysis of the human condition~?
20:47:48 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: The pretentious literary types really seem to like terrible fiction. About 50 years after it's been published.
20:48:04 <pikhq> On occasion they like good fiction as well, but I suspect this is a fluke.
20:48:29 <elliott> oklopol: this editor is going to be pretty horrible :D
20:48:36 <elliott> oklopol: it's basically going to be a shitload of boxes inside other boxes
20:49:41 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: "The Grapes of Wrath", by Steinbeck.
20:50:06 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: This book earned Steinbeck a Pulitzer and a Nobel Prize.
20:50:14 <elliott> recs=filter(lambda i:i.isrec(),clue.branches)
20:50:17 <pikhq> Every *other* chapter has plot.
20:50:24 <elliott> return call_branch(clue,default,args,depth_lim)
20:50:49 <pikhq> The plotless chapters are pretentious mental wanking put on a page, in the form of allegory.
20:51:25 <coppro> We only have 12 years to wait
20:51:56 <pikhq> copumpkin: By "12" or "42" you mean "infinity".
20:52:00 <Vorpal> elliott, other random info: a goto based loop in TI-BASIC is about 5 times slower than a for-based one. A for is about 20% faster than a while loop.
20:52:12 <elliott> copumpkin: YOU MEAN INFINITY DAMMIT
20:52:34 <Gregor> elliott: Pooppy witchery.
20:52:36 <pikhq> coppro: Retroactive copyright extensions happen every time Mickey Mouse is about to hit public domain.
20:52:39 <coppro> pikhq: I have no clue what you meant to say there
20:52:53 <elliott> coppro: Correct pikh -> pikhq.
20:53:35 <copumpkin> (once I get an indication of what information you're looking for in an answer to that kind of question, I can answer yours :P)
20:53:36 <pikhq> coppro: This tends to be enforced by WIPO.
20:53:41 <Vorpal> I can't find what "<elliott> copumpkin: YOU MEAN INFINITY DAMMIT" was a reply to
20:54:00 <elliott> yet more proof you have no scrollback
20:54:25 <pikhq> Every 20 years or so they get a stick up their ass, become convinced copyright needs to be 20 years longer, and strongarms most of the world into compliance.
20:54:28 <Vorpal> copumpkin, "someone new here" "someone who changed nick", "sometime who been away for many years but used to be a regular"
20:54:33 <Vorpal> copumpkin, that kind of stuff
20:54:39 <elliott> copumpkin: you mean infinit
20:54:47 <elliott> Vorpal: he's a #haskell informant.
20:54:52 <copumpkin> Vorpal: someone who's been here for about a week or two now I think, but yeah, relatively new :P
20:55:04 <pikhq> coppro: Member of WIPO, as well.
20:55:20 <elliott> yeah copumpkin is a member of wipo
20:56:46 <Vorpal> copumpkin, are you the codomain of pumpkins or?
20:57:00 <copumpkin> I'm a pumpkin in the opposite category
20:57:54 <pikhq> coppro: Well I'll be. You guys haven't gone beyond the international-treaty-required-minimum of *life plus 50*.
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20:58:20 <pikhq> Which is still bullshit.
20:58:21 <elliott> j-invariant: implement copumpkin in your category theory
20:58:55 <coppro> pikhq: in fact, Mickey Mouse has 6 more years here.
20:59:33 <elliott> 00:10:28 <oklopol> actually not so much lately, since i broke up with the gf, although we've been talking about being sex-buddies with an ex
20:59:33 <elliott> 00:11:22 <oklopol> (we broke up because of artistic differences)
20:59:37 <pikhq> More so under US copyright law, where Congress only has the power to enact copyright law for the purpose of increasing the works produced...
20:59:39 <oklopol> movies are ridiculously short when you get used to watching seasons of a tv series in one go
20:59:45 <elliott> oklopol: *phew* i still couldn't quite see you as being in a stable, long-term relationship
20:59:50 <elliott> you seem less..conflicting now
21:00:47 <pikhq> (that is to say, under a strict interpretation of the US constitution, Congress *does not have the power* to create a copyright law that does not increase the amount of artistic expression.)
21:01:06 <j-invariant> elliott: Consider this http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VBavHxpt
21:01:06 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, artistic difference could mean so very very much when oklopol says it.
21:01:07 <coppro> pikhq: have fun with that one
21:01:13 <coppro> pikhq: you should sue the government
21:01:17 <j-invariant> elliott: the problem is to write init in terms of foldr
21:01:20 <pikhq> (of course, under a strict interpretation of the US constitution, Congress doesn't have the power to do almost everything it does, so hey!)
21:01:25 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, consider yesterday's discussion between him and zzo for example
21:01:43 <elliott> j-invariant: i've written functions in terms of foldr all the time
21:01:45 <j-invariant> elliott: Maybe the methods here could be incorperated into Clue
21:01:55 <elliott> j-invariant: since i think that data should be represented as its foldr
21:01:55 <j-invariant> elliott: I am pointing out that the derivation is systematic
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21:01:59 <elliott> as in, instead of church representation etc.
21:02:14 <pikhq> Hmm. Of things it commonly does, it has the power to: run the military, fund roads, run the postal service, and tax.
21:02:16 <j-invariant> elliott: I have been watching some videos about the difference between the encodings data = ... and folds
21:02:47 <elliott> j-invariant: people have already encoded data as its fold as an implementation technique?
21:02:53 <elliott> and made pattern matching and recursion compile to that?
21:03:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, isn't the postal service private in US? If so that surprises me
21:03:14 <oklopol> elliott: it was rather stable and long-term imo
21:03:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: The postal service is very much public.
21:03:38 <elliott> oklopol: yeah but it isn't any more, which is the good thing. also if you're somehow normal enough to get offended by me saying this, just say
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21:03:54 <oklopol> i get offended if you tell me i suck at math
21:03:58 <j-invariant> elliott: You should learn uAgda: In this language we define data types by their elimination behavior and theen program with them using parametricity
21:04:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't know if the word exists (it probably doesn't) but that is an geochronism
21:04:18 <Vorpal> (probably chron has to do with time)
21:04:26 <elliott> oklopol: i'm jokin i'm jokin
21:04:26 <Vorpal> (so it should be anageonism or something)
21:04:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: It functions independentally, does not receive any money *from* the federal government, but it's a government agency nevertheless.
21:05:01 <elliott> he does all the maths j-invariant
21:05:11 <elliott> he's a BACHELOR! he even got a plaque, saying he's a bachelor
21:05:14 <elliott> i think this is how degrees work
21:05:36 <Vorpal> j-invariant, I know the feeling
21:05:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: The functioning independentally is just a matter of how the bureaucracy works.
21:05:43 <j-invariant> do I just come across as some sort of liar that wants to trick people or what
21:05:48 <elliott> j-invariant: i listened to you :<
21:06:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's part of the executive branch, and technically the President could just start bossing people around.
21:07:41 <elliott> oklopol: have you ever used tkinter
21:07:47 <pikhq> Also, it predates the US, and was founded by Ben Franklin.
21:08:11 <j-invariant> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwmU9kQTv4U
21:08:12 <elliott> oklopol: recursively transform an object structure into a gui widget, different widget type per class
21:08:16 <elliott> oklopol: and have it sort of automatically update?
21:08:34 <oklopol> i haven't used it enough to tell you more than any tutorial could
21:08:38 <elliott> j-invariant: i thought you just had a song that you referred to as HAPPY SONG for no reason :D
21:08:43 <oklopol> i've mostly just made basic interfaces with it
21:08:52 <oklopol> like you know text box + button
21:09:03 <elliott> oklopol: i'm tempted to just do this with sdl :D
21:11:26 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you doing then?
21:11:31 <j-invariant> elliott: this guy wanted to know how to write init as foldr, I tried to help him but he just ignored me
21:11:37 <elliott> oklopol: like i can't figure out how to do this, do i have to reconstruct every object constantly
21:11:47 <elliott> j-invariant: do you mean me >_>
21:11:53 <elliott> i don't recall wanting to know that
21:12:11 <elliott> it's possible he just didn't see your message...
21:12:22 <Vorpal> j-invariant, wait nvm. I read "geez" as "games" somehow (and sorted out the grammar without noticing it)
21:12:46 <Vorpal> I think I need to sleep
21:12:52 <j-invariant> Vorpal: well I /have/ spent about 60% of the last few days playing minecraft
21:13:05 <Vorpal> j-invariant, that was why I went "har har" :P
21:14:45 <elliott> oklopol: i think i need... zippers... in python :D
21:20:14 <elliott> oklopol: oh wow it's actually working.
21:23:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> mutable integers :D <-- what exactly do you mean?
21:24:05 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> oklopol: i think i need... zippers... in python :D ← Well, someone already did monads...
21:24:10 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. so it is inc() ?
21:24:11 <elliott> hmm possibly these objects should know their parents
21:24:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean x = 5; x = 6 ?
21:24:23 <elliott> Vorpal: the point is that it's (int *)
21:24:38 <elliott> x = Holder(5); f(x); x ==> Holder(6)
21:24:43 <Vorpal> elliott, so you need boxed mutable variables. Okay
21:24:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: http://imgur.com/JybuB
21:25:59 <elliott> oklopol: current state of cled: http://i.imgur.com/931qc.png
21:26:05 <elliott> oklopol: those buttons are actually going to be like text boxes
21:26:32 <elliott> oklopol: the idea is basically that everything is a list: e.g. a branch is a list of examples
21:26:42 <elliott> oklopol: you can go up and down a list, "descend" into a list, and ascend back up
21:26:54 <elliott> oklopol: so for instance, the list shown there is 1, 2 and 3
21:27:11 <elliott> oklopol: if you are over, e.g. an integer, then you can type a new one to replace it
21:27:27 <elliott> oklopol: bags are obviously an auto-sorted unique list (set) of their elements
21:27:31 <elliott> oklopol: lists are of course lists of their elements
21:27:39 <elliott> oklopol: and the whole program is an auto-sorted unique list (set) of the functions
21:27:49 <elliott> and there's one extra key, /
21:27:53 <elliott> /foo jumps to the function foo
21:28:05 <elliott> oh, and there's also "insert element to list here" and "delete element"
21:28:13 <elliott> you create a function by inserting an element in the program, typing the name, and going from there
21:28:15 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: what's aaargh
21:28:51 <elliott> oklopol: the keys to create "more than 3" look something like this:
21:29:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: http://imgur.com/JybuB <-- that looks like a cross between a creeper, a duck and some blobby creature from generic scifi that can shape shift.
21:29:07 <elliott> j-invariant: an editor for Clue trees
21:29:17 <Vorpal> elliott, end result is not scary but just laughable
21:29:42 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, yes it just looks silly
21:29:54 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, a mouth that shape, how would it close it?
21:30:12 <elliott> ever seen a creeper with its mouth closed?
21:30:20 <Vorpal> elliott, no and I blame notch for that
21:30:22 <elliott> oklopol: +emore than 3<up><down>+e+e0<up><right>e0<up>... and more
21:30:29 <elliott> oklopol: i swear this is easy to use :D
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21:31:07 <elliott> Vorpal: so anyway, water flows upwards now http://i.imgur.com/4mx3X.png
21:31:33 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=99048
21:33:56 <elliott> oklopol: i get the feeling you don't think this editor is brilliant :
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21:46:03 <oklopol> http://imgur.com/JybuB = awesome
21:47:55 <oklopol> someone should totally make mc with those graphics
21:48:30 <j-invariant> haha this guy shows how to make a memory cell using boats and doors
21:55:30 <elliott> oklopol: making this is so hard :D
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21:56:46 <elliott> http://imgur.com/nlL89 hd textures :D
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22:00:09 <elliott> pikhq: I dare you to retell Lord of the Rings in 10 sentences.
22:00:17 <elliott> pikhq: (Not ten chapter-long sentences.)
22:02:45 <pikhq> elliott: Frodo Baggins must destroy the Ring of Power, so that ultimate evil cannot use it! He does so.
22:03:26 <elliott> pikhq: That leaves out almost all details. Try and pack all the important details into 10 sentences.
22:06:11 <j-invariant> "First Wikileaks, then their followers. Next will be the follower's followers. Eventually the US will get their real target: Kevin Bacon
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22:12:30 <elliott> Vorpal: tile would probably work with this actually
22:13:28 <oerjan> <elliott> oklopol: what, why <-- he has an exam tomorrow, remember?
22:13:53 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: so anyway, water flows upwards now http://i.imgur.com/4mx3X.png <--- old, happens all the time with diagonals like that. It can go down if you have a 2x2 basin without the corners for example
22:13:53 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
22:14:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: tile would probably work with this actually <-- this made no sense
22:14:17 <elliott> pikhq: i have a tk question
22:14:17 <Vorpal> I do not know the context
22:14:22 <elliott> Vorpal: tk themeable widgets
22:14:36 <pikhq> elliott: I don't know Tk well, but k.
22:14:45 <elliott> pikhq: what event do I bind to on an entry (single-line text input field) such that it triggers whenever an extra char gets inserted?
22:14:54 <elliott> it calls even for things like tab, cursor keys, etc.
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22:23:00 <Phantom__Hoover> Could it copy the block data it receives to an SSP-compatible world file?
22:25:52 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: fizzie already has that planned.
22:26:06 <elliott> Maybe I could plan how to blow up Mount Vorpal locally.
22:29:50 <elliott> pikhq: Do you know of a tcl wiki link listing tk events?
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22:48:14 <ais523> hmm, that was a bizarre spambot on Esolang
22:48:23 <ais523> it's replacing arbitrary links with piped links to its own website
22:49:32 <coppro> sounds like one that might be effective
22:49:57 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, looks like it was just programmed to s/[.*/<linkname> /
22:50:57 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: indeed
22:52:41 <ais523> it really screwed up the syntax
22:53:06 <elliott> ais523: have you ever used a semantic editing tool?
22:53:52 <Phantom__Hoover> Links become links to the spammer's site, but with a single ] at the end.
23:08:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I'LL GET TO THAT LATER
23:08:59 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, my Complaining About People Not Liking The Show entry on TV Tropes' MC article has been bumped to the YMMV tab.
23:10:54 <elliott> "Creepers are of the same species as the Slender Man."
23:12:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Meanwhile, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiJh5fpWPAo
23:14:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Incidentally, with the kind of rates he gets there, HHI could double its TNT supply in days.
23:19:11 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
23:26:31 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1016&t=71196
23:30:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Someone on TV Tropes said that you'd be mocked relentlessly for appreciating the things Notch does FOR FREE!
23:30:51 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:32:49 <elliott> what, voxelperfect works again
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23:34:45 <elliott> oklopol: hey it's actually working :D
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23:39:25 <elliott> :: foo ~ { -> 3 }; foo ~ 3
23:39:26 <luatre> IndexError: list index out of range :(
23:39:29 <luatre> IndexError: list index out of range :(
23:39:36 <elliott> i should complain to oklopol about that :D
23:39:53 <Phantom__Hoover> How did he get FPS that high on the Reddit creative server?
23:39:59 <elliott> WITH SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:41:16 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Obviously.
23:41:25 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It *is* a field of mathematics.
23:41:26 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "Computing theory".
23:41:29 <elliott> Or "Computation theory". etc.
23:41:37 <elliott> CS is neither a science nor related to computers.
23:41:39 <pikhq> People who claim otherwise are ignorant.
23:42:14 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq, any other novels which are awful and loved by the pretentious?
23:42:29 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Lemme find some.
23:43:20 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Alternately, I could cut the work and just say "Look at a literature cirriculum."
23:43:21 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Iain M. Banks
23:43:52 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: T'was joke.
23:44:01 <elliott> But yeah, I should have said just Iain Banks.
23:44:10 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize_for_Fiction Here's a list.
23:44:28 <Phantom__Hoover> SF in general isn't loved by the pretentious, since you need to have a modicum of intelligence to appreciate it.
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23:44:36 <pikhq> (note: some omissions required. Namely: Hemingway is a good author.)
23:45:00 <pikhq> (whose writing style is most notable for lacking any bullshit at all.)
23:46:43 <Phantom__Hoover> "Bullshit" here meaning "all forms of punctuation higher than the full stop."
23:47:22 <elliott> I want to like Vonnegut but can't because he hates semicolons. It is a wretched state of existence I find myself in.
23:47:28 <pikhq> Actually, it's more that he's completely unpretentious.
23:47:54 <pikhq> Of course, this is natural, considering that he's also quite legitimately a badass. :P
23:48:06 <elliott> "First rule: Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college."
23:48:41 <pikhq> I don't recall *not* knowing proper use of the semicolon!
23:48:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Turns out that the guys who wrote the Oxford Latin Course love semicolons.
23:49:23 <elliott> I used to never use the semicolon, then I did, and used it excessively to the point of insanity in here; then I decided to stop entirely for a few months, which I did, and my writing became a bit less silly; and then I started again, but more moderately.
23:49:31 <elliott> Of course, "moderately" here means "a few times per sentence".
23:51:01 <Phantom__Hoover> When I pointed out to her that that was the ENTIRE POINT of the semicolon, she said I still wasn't using it properly.
23:52:32 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Next up, write an essay on the proper use of semicolons.
23:52:38 <pikhq> Cite every major style guide.
23:52:49 <pikhq> (they're not likely to disagree on major points.)
23:53:32 <Phantom__Hoover> pikhq, well, her quibble was more that I had used it between sentences that weren't very logically connected.
23:54:06 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Define "logically connected".
23:54:41 <Phantom__Hoover> I could put the text of the essay up, if you want, but it's not terribly good.
23:54:52 <pikhq> I've probably seen worse.
23:54:55 <Phantom__Hoover> I knocked it together in about 2 hours on the day before it was due.
23:55:23 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Wrongly = with LaTeX? :D
23:55:25 <Phantom__Hoover> (To be fair, I did use sections and a couple of footnotes.)
23:55:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Although lots of people made the oh-so-clever suggestion to typeset it in Comic Sans.
23:56:24 <Phantom__Hoover> GODDAMN IT APTITUDE I DON'T CARE IF THERE'S AN UNMET DEPENDENCY IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PACKAGE TO THE ONE I WANT TO INSALL
00:10:07 <elliott> TODO: make the display of branches somehow a table.
00:10:59 <Phantom__Hoover> So, who wants to see the stupidity I make up when scrambling to finish an essay at 12 o'clock?
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00:16:45 <Phantom__Hoover> Advice welcome, since I suspect I'll have to hand this in for some exam or other.
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00:27:58 <oerjan> hagb4rd|afk: HOW CAN YOU JOIN WHEN YOU'RE AFK, THIS NO SENSE MAKE
00:30:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I refuse to review anything other than the originale ssay.
00:31:09 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: \author{Phantom Hoover}
00:31:29 <Phantom__Hoover> I made no alteration to the text other than to change \author from my real name to... NOT GOING TO BE THAT EASY
00:32:05 <elliott> oerjan: what were those two name possibilities again
00:32:13 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: FWIW, OS X has only had Comic Sans as of very recently, and Unix machines rarely ship with it.
00:32:18 <elliott> So I don't get this "every computer" stuff.
00:32:27 <elliott> "other operating systems rapidly followed suit" -- no they did not
00:32:50 <elliott> oerjan: of the two possible names ph can be
00:36:31 <oerjan> You may lie as much as you wish, as long as your grammar and spelling is impeccable.
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00:41:28 <hagb4rd> sry oerjan.. i was afk before i quit
00:41:33 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
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00:42:28 <hagb4rd> but to answer your question: remote control :p
00:43:44 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah from screenshots this relaly makes everything smoother
00:44:05 <oerjan> hagb4rd: what a ridiculous concept!
00:44:52 <elliott> Vorpal: also http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128043 arbitrary shader mod!
00:45:08 <elliott> Vorpal: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ if better light is better light, what is this? perfect light?
00:45:09 <hagb4rd> lets call it 'the creative moment of superposition'
00:45:50 <elliott> [[Do not distribute anything I've made. This includes the client and the server software for the game. This also includes modified versions of anything I've made.]]
00:45:57 <elliott> you can't redistribute the minecraft server which is available for free download
00:48:48 <hagb4rd> maybe me/you leak on trust for the culture of white man
00:52:06 <hagb4rd> [pretty nice track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egdOBB-Z16c&fmt=18]
00:53:44 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jzsrnTFhyQ I think I prefer this.
00:55:08 <elliott> Aza's texture pack looks nice...
00:55:08 <hagb4rd> oh.. u mean my mistranslated thompson quote :>
00:57:34 * elliott tries to flesh out list semantics.
00:58:01 <elliott> A list has a current selection. The arrow keys move this selection up/down or left/right (same thing) the list of focusable children.
00:58:26 <elliott> The E key can be pressed to cause the current selection to be focused. Before this, the current selection stays as the list's widget.
00:59:06 <elliott> The current selection's border is blue; other selections' borders are light grey. I might have some extra border colour for "selected and focused", but this is not very relevant, since you could tell by seeing whether there are any highlighted borders inside it.
00:59:42 <elliott> The D key defocuses the current selection, and returns to the list, with it still selected.
00:59:45 <elliott> Focusing a number makes it become blue-bordered, say, and then typing overwrites that number.
00:59:57 <elliott> So e123d, when a number is selected, would turn it into 123.
01:00:49 <elliott> The + or = key (not sure which) adds a new element after the current one in a list and selects it (but does not focus it, I don't *think*.)
01:01:02 <elliott> I should probably have an "insert before" key so that you can insert at the top of a list.
01:01:13 <elliott> If I do, then probably = should be insert after, and + should be insert before, since + is shifted = for me.
01:01:34 <elliott> So in an argument list, +e123d adds 123 as an argument after the current one.
01:02:04 <elliott> (Perhaps I should make sure that all examples have the same number of arguments? That could be a pain (although maybe not), but it would be nice if it could do that somehow and... automatically add blank arguments to the others? Not sure.)
01:02:11 <elliott> Actually, it would be +ie123d.
01:02:28 <elliott> Since + would take the type in an argument list; either integer (i) or list (l).
01:03:06 <elliott> So +le+ie123d+ie456d+ie789d adds the list [123 456 789] after the current argument.
01:03:12 <elliott> Or perhaps e should be implicit after +.
01:03:23 <elliott> In that case, it would be: (oh, and I'm using + to mean = here, i.e. insert after)
01:03:41 <elliott> That's certainly nicer, but perhaps more confusing. I'll have to see.
01:03:54 <elliott> Backspace or something deletes the current selection.
01:04:11 <elliott> In a set, obviously, everything gets sorted, so no matter where you add an element, it'll move to the right place after you enter the name.
01:04:23 <elliott> On that note: in a bag, there's an extra type other than i and l, f for function.
01:04:43 <elliott> But <enter> is used in place of d when writing a string. (Perhaps <enter> should be a synonym for d everywhere.)
01:05:00 <elliott> So +fesucc<enter> or +fsucc<enter> (if e is implicit) adds succ to the current bag.
01:05:23 <elliott> Other things I should probably have: keys to jump to the branch list and bag of the current function, no matter where you are in it.
01:05:35 <elliott> Also, a command called / which has you type in a function name, press enter, and it jumps there.
01:06:02 <elliott> I think this could actually work!
01:06:14 <elliott> Also, s or Cmd+s or whatever saves. Obviously.
01:06:27 <elliott> Saving will have to exit the current item if it's an integer or string to make sure it gets updated properly...
01:06:41 <elliott> I should probably also store history here, but I'm not sure how. Maybe just copy the whole thing on every change and store it in memory, the ghetto way. :p
01:11:12 <elliott> Also also, the focus starts on the program object, which is just a set of functions (well, really a dictionary, but you don't see that).
01:11:36 <elliott> There, + just takes a name and creates a function. Perhaps it should actually do an implicit "ee", i.e. enter into the function, and enter into the name.
01:11:44 <elliott> Obviously it would remove it if you try and name a function an existing name or whatever.
01:13:20 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11997 The Minecraft Society of Blowing People's Chests Up.
01:15:09 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ez76j/living_underground_playing_minecraft_in_moleman/
01:15:15 <elliott> I really want to do this as a two-person SMP thing.
01:48:59 <elliott> ...so basically, I keep a list index (or object references for sets? Or for everything? I have no direct object duplicates... eh, TODO: figure this out.) in each list object.
01:49:08 <elliott> And make sure it all gets highlighted and have bindings to move around that list.
01:49:14 <elliott> Then I just have a binding to focus the current index/whatever.
01:49:28 <elliott> Each widget itself has a key to focus its parent, which accomplishes "going up" one, i.e. exiting (d).
01:50:09 <elliott> Obviously integers just have to snarf the keys 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and - when they're focused and do the obvious (*10)+.
01:50:16 <elliott> Although - might require some trickery.
01:50:26 <elliott> Maybe I should keep it as a string until the whole integer's written.
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01:57:14 <elliott> [["We" don't make us Ninjas or Rockstars - we still have the notion of "Monks". You might think this is stupid - on a cultural level you're basically comparing living the boheme with celebacy - guess what speaks to
01:57:16 <elliott> this is the silliest article ever
01:58:56 <elliott> "Ah Perl, a ... weapon ... from an ... age." —reddit
02:02:41 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1sXuHnf_lo Deldo, teledildonics for Emacs. WJW.
02:03:58 <elliott> Oh god he's having sex with Steve Yegge via Emacs. What is this.
02:06:01 <elliott> bahahaha networked teledildonics
02:07:53 <elliott> He's proposing teledildonical eugenics to wipe out vi.
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02:31:17 <variable> would a language that does a random walk among all its instructions (and otherwise TC) be considered TC because it will *eventually* perform whatever it is that you actually intended
02:36:12 <oerjan> well that sounds like it would be an infinitely long computation, wouldn't it? and defining what it means for infinite computation models to be TC is very subtle
02:37:05 <oerjan> the thing is that you need some kind of output translation algorithm to look through the actual random walk to say what the final result is
02:38:12 <oerjan> and the question is then, is it your random walk or the output translation that is doing most of the _real_ computation?
02:39:11 <oerjan> this is a problem for such things as rule 110 cellular automaton and that minimal turing machine which ais523 proved
02:42:33 <oerjan> both of which require an infinite setup which calculates forever
02:44:06 <variable> rule 110 cellular automation ?
02:44:51 <oerjan> also to be nitpicking, theoretically TC should always be about computing a result somehow, whether it is also performing "actions" is fairly irrelevant
02:46:23 <oerjan> for the other one see http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html
02:46:24 <variable> oerjan, so my question should have been "since it will eventually compute whatever it is you intended"
02:46:36 <variable> ps - nitpicky is good for me - it helps me learn
02:46:50 <oerjan> variable: well you see you have to have some way to decide on _one_ result to get out of it
02:47:29 <oerjan> (warning, everything wolfram is embedded in an ocean of hype)
02:49:48 <oerjan> it might compute as many other things it wants, but at the end you have to have a way to choose, and if that way is itself too computationally complex it is too easy to cheat
02:50:24 <variable> oerjan, so what your saying is that the chooser itself becomes what becomes TC so the random walk doesn't matter
02:50:47 <oerjan> that can happen yes. although sometimes there is a combination.
02:52:33 <oerjan> for the rule 110 automaton you need infinite setup and extraction of result but each of those is essentially still a finite state automaton (i think)
02:53:21 <oerjan> so in some sense they're still "simple"
02:54:54 <oerjan> for the 2,3-turing machine case the setup is even more complicated, and there was a debate about whether it was simple enough
02:55:55 <oerjan> (i recall ais523 telling that the output extraction was still a very simple check)
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04:04:58 <augur> i think ive started to understand how continuation based backtracking works
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04:15:38 <oklopol> here's my essay about comic sans: "Comic Sans is not monospaced, nuff said."
04:16:17 <oerjan> "Comic Sans is not monospaced", Nuff said.
04:16:56 * pikhq finds it funny how bad people are at driving in snow.
04:17:18 <pikhq> "Oh my god there's half an inch of snow! I CAN'T DRIVE!"
04:17:25 <pikhq> (for you non-Americans, that's 1 or 2 cm)
04:19:33 <pikhq> oerjan: Ballpark figures get ballpark conversions from me.
04:20:05 <oerjan> 1.270000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
04:20:19 <pikhq> The 0s are irrelevant digits!
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04:20:33 <oerjan> YOUR digits are irrelephant!
04:20:38 <pikhq> An inch is *defined as* precisely 25.4e-3 m!
04:20:56 <oklopol> that was sort of his point
04:21:55 <pikhq> I actually saw people *parked on the side of the road*.
04:22:21 <oklopol> what's the significance of that, said the foreigner?
04:22:40 <oklopol> do americans only use fancy big parking lotw
04:22:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Their thoughts were "Oh fuck it's too bad I'm going to wait this out".
04:23:02 <oklopol> oh like just a random road
04:23:09 <pikhq> oklopol: Meanwhile I'm driving by at ~45 mph (~70 kph).
04:23:19 <oklopol> i suppose that's sort of the definition of road
04:23:49 <oklopol> we rarely have half an inch of snow on the roads because people drive about as much as in the summer
04:24:11 <oklopol> well. probably much less, but you don't need that many cars to remove the snow.
04:24:32 <pikhq> It happens when it's snowing pretty well, and it's evening.
04:24:46 <oklopol> i don't actually own a car
04:26:13 <oklopol> should prolly go to uni and try to study a bit
04:29:14 <oklopol> oerjan: i think i now understand the green's stuff completely, the lemmas are just because you first prove that there is a kind of inverse element for each *pair* of identity elements in the same D class, for D = L \circle R (an eq relation), that is, for each x, eRx, fLx where e and f are idempotents, there is a unique fRyLe such that xy=e, yx=f
04:29:48 <oklopol> which is actually pretty easy, but you have to guess what y is, by building it from the elements used in the implementations of L and R relations
04:30:04 <oklopol> with the same meaning of implementation as i used yesterday
04:30:43 <oklopol> so xRy ~ xs = y, ys' = x would mean s and s' implement the relation, not sure that's a good term but anyhows
04:31:25 <oklopol> and the really complex looking lemma i listed yesterday is actually very simple when you think of it in terms of these diagrams representing D classes
04:32:31 <oklopol> D = R \circle L so have R classes as rows and L classes as columns, then what the lemma says, or on of the things, is that if left multiplication takes an element in an R class a to another R class b, then actually the whole class a is bijected onto b
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04:33:49 <oklopol> and L classes are preserved when multiplying a's elements from the left (by that element we chose), since well obviously because there's another element whose multiplication from the left inverts the operation
04:34:10 <oklopol> it's not really very clear this way either, but trust me, it's clear when you draw a diagram and move your fingers along it!
04:35:41 <oklopol> anyhow so in short, H classes within one R class a are bijected onto H classes of the other R class b, if you multiply from the left by an element implementing the L relation between two elements x \in a, y \in b
04:36:31 <oerjan> i think i'll run away screaming now
04:37:22 <oklopol> the stuff in the inverse semigroups chapter is waaaaaaaay more complicated
04:38:13 <oklopol> i'd love to rant about it but
04:38:19 <oklopol> i should probably read it once more
04:38:26 <oklopol> and to do that, i should probably leave
04:38:59 <oklopol> inverse element of x is y such that xyx = x, yxy = y
04:39:08 <oklopol> inverse semigroup = all have unique inverses
04:39:30 <oerjan> in short my brain is not capable of this stuff today
04:39:47 <oklopol> the trace of a congruence is the restriction of it on the semilattice of idempotents (nontrivial that it's a semilattice, essentially needs the same proof we spend hours on back when)
04:40:13 <oerjan> as long as you don't mind speaking to yourself
04:40:17 <oklopol> now for each congruence on an inverse semigroup
04:40:26 <oklopol> well you might not be listening, but others might!
04:41:33 <oerjan> http://www.ninjapirate.com/newcomputer.html
04:41:36 <oklopol> let p be a congruence, we can define p_{min} = complicated shit; then we can prove, using a page of dense impossibl- to-understand algebration, that p_{min} is the smallest congruence with the same trace
04:41:57 <oklopol> and that's the greatest sexiness eva
04:42:45 <oklopol> such a uniqueness of minimul suchness is not the case for all regular semigroups
04:42:58 <oklopol> and in the case of groups, that is an empty definition
04:43:04 <oklopol> as is usually the case in semigroup theory
04:43:11 <oklopol> which is essentially the theory of idempotents afaiu
04:43:36 <oklopol> okay rant over, you don't have to feel bad about me wasting my time anymore
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04:56:38 <oklopol> i'll continue after the exam, try to get your brain up and running with puzzles and shit while i'm gone k?!
04:59:26 <oklopol> i should actually try to clean up this place, i moved about a week ago, and i still haven't moved a single object
04:59:32 <oklopol> well, maybe like 5 objects
04:59:52 <oklopol> so it's possible i won't be here all day
05:00:02 <oklopol> apparently it's super hard
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05:00:25 <oklopol> according to the guy who deduced how clue works from ski
05:01:25 <oklopol> but i'm sure i'll manage with 5 hours of sleep
05:07:53 <Sgeo> My new favorite game is Super PSTW
05:08:10 <oerjan> we'll have to update shutup then
05:08:31 * oerjan has no idea what Super PSTW is anyhow
05:08:38 <Sgeo> http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/495903
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06:01:00 <oerjan> _definitely_ time to update shutup
06:01:50 <Sgeo> oerjan, it will need to be provided with an AI capable of determining when I'm expressing an interest in something new.
06:05:12 <Sgeo> Well, this sounds like a lot of redundant typing that Haskell eliminates via the IO monad
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06:05:47 <Sgeo> [Mercury IO predicates manually take in and give back the state of the world]
06:06:22 <Sgeo> Naming all these intermediate states quickly becomes tedious, so Mercury
06:06:22 <Sgeo> provides us with syntactic sugar in the form of state variables"
06:10:29 <Sgeo> I'll look at it in more detail tomorrow
06:10:37 <Sgeo> Just got confused by a line that looks backwards
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07:07:25 <zzo38> Quick! Everyone count to zero!
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07:08:11 <oerjan> at last a request we can fill
07:12:30 <quintopia> i didn't do it though. this isn't #irp
07:13:32 <oerjan> watch me count to zero again:
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07:14:51 <quintopia> he didn't say to start counting at 1
07:14:59 <quintopia> most computer scientists start at zero
07:15:03 <oerjan> that's the default duh
07:15:05 <quintopia> and that requires counting at least zero
07:15:37 <oerjan> ...you show me an average computer scientist who starts at zero when counting actual items
07:16:14 <quintopia> he didn't ask anyone to count actual items
07:16:32 <quintopia> stop making up arbitrary situations where you're right and i'm not :P
07:19:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, me, out of habit, on occasion
07:19:25 <Sgeo> *counting chairs to remember where I sit* 0, 1, 2,
07:19:41 <oerjan> supergeeks don't count
07:21:01 <quintopia> i have an annoying bug or something that is pissing me off. my microSD card unmounts always and only when i copy files to it
07:21:06 * oerjan reads up on the no true computer scientist fallacy
07:21:14 <quintopia> creating files on it is fine, copying files from it is fine.
07:21:38 <quintopia> i want to punt it but then i'd lose it...it's too small
07:24:57 <quintopia> still fails and unmounts but takes longer in doing it
07:25:24 <oerjan> what about touch followed by cat >> ?
07:26:35 <oerjan> does the size of the file copied matter?
07:26:48 <quintopia> well, i tried a pretty small one and it failed
07:28:54 <fizzie> How about a slow-speed write with something like perl -e 'open IN, "<:raw", "/input/file"; open OUT, ">:raw", "/output/file"; while (read IN, $data, 512) { print OUT $data; sleep 1; }' -- that's half a kilobyte per second.
07:29:55 <quintopia> apparently half a kilobyte is too big
07:30:08 <oerjan> is that the block size?
07:30:12 <quintopia> i just tried to echo 10 lines of t's into a file and it failed
07:30:34 <oerjan> what happens if you echo >> 10 times?
07:32:23 <quintopia> it appears to fail as soon as the file reaches a certain (extremely small size)
07:33:21 <oerjan> i'm just wondering if it's absolute file size or just amount written in one go
07:34:10 <quintopia> apparently if i wait long enough between appending 80 or so bytes at a time i can make big files
07:34:38 * quintopia tries the perl script with a 80 byte rate
07:34:40 <oerjan> oh so it's not enought to close in between, you have to wait?
07:35:03 <quintopia> echoing really quick in a row still breaks it
07:35:20 <fizzie> You could try echo + sync + echo + sync; though that sort of thing is probably going to wear out the card quicker.
07:35:31 <fizzie> They have to always erase a full block when writing, after all.
07:36:08 <quintopia> odds are it's an issue with the card reader
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07:41:34 * quintopia is now writing a file at 40 bytes/sec >_>
07:42:57 <oerjan> now if this slow speed means it syncs so that it does that erase a full block everything thing...
07:47:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: MINDLINK. I had committed-and-pushed a (very preliminary probably broken) //save command (which saves the so-far received block data, sans signs, furnaces and chests, into a hopefully Minecraft-compatible world-dir) about an hour before you had that feature request.
07:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY THOUGHTS BEFORE I EVEN THINK THEM
07:48:52 <fizzie> If it's any consolation, it probably doesn't work.
07:49:46 * oerjan wonders if he is witnessing the birth of a meme
07:50:15 <fizzie> I've only tried the resulting world with pynemap, and, well, http://zem.fi/~fis/pynemap.png -- there's a bit of it that's missing.
07:50:40 <fizzie> Also the lighting values are likely to be very worng.
07:51:06 <fizzie> And the heightmap I know is mirrored over the x=z line.
07:51:34 <fizzie> (The heightmap is used as a speedup for computing the final light values from block-light and skylight, or some-such.)
07:53:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/eybba/dark_captcha_magic/
07:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it's good enough for my plot to blow up Mt. Vorpal locally.
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07:53:51 <oerjan> and of course http://www.reddit.com/r/Inglip/
07:53:52 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You shouldn't say stuff like that before actually verifying whether it works in the actual game at all.
07:54:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: possibly
07:54:39 <oerjan> hm i guess that means it may have troubles competing
07:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Zalgo does have something of a monopoly on the field of memetic Lovecraftian horrors.
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08:02:01 <oerjan> this Inglip seems a teeny bit reluctant though
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08:05:30 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It is possible you may fall into your death.
08:06:08 <fizzie> I'd have tried it myself, but I always get queasy when there are glitches in 3D-y games.
08:06:40 <fizzie> Oh no! Wait, what? Where's the "not" in that sentence?
08:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I spawned on Mt. Vorpal, and I saw the skyway in the distance.
08:08:02 <fizzie> The experience must've been so horrible, it robbed him of the power of speech. How tragic!
08:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh, it even captured the front half of nailor's cabin.
08:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover> At this point I just want to load hMod locally and give myself a load of TNT.
08:11:35 <fizzie> You can server-command-'give' yourself 64 blocks of TNT even without any hMods.
08:12:01 <fizzie> The //save-enabled mcmap build will use 2.5 times as much memory as the normal version, which is a bit of a shame. I should possibly do the whole "persist far-away chunks to file" thing the usual client does; then there wouldn't be a separate //save, it'd be intemagrated.
08:13:02 <olsner> use mmap:ed memory for everything? :>
08:14:25 <fizzie> olsner: Just plain old data-structure dumps won't be combattible with the official client on-disk formats, unfortunately.
08:14:58 <olsner> well, yeah... unless your memory format is compatible
08:17:06 <fizzie> The NBT thing it uses is a bit uncomfortable to work with.
08:17:10 <fizzie> Oh, and it needs to be gzipped.
08:21:22 <olsner> oh, screw that then :) but you can always build converters from your format to official-client format
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08:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh. Dynamite disappears after a short time, and doesn't do anything when punched.
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09:23:35 <fizzie> I just hope you don't get confused, accidentally connect to the real server, and then explode the *beep* out of it.
09:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I don't have 5 stacks of dynamite on the real server.
09:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the amount of TNT I used on your house seems to have broken the world...
09:31:22 <fizzie> So this is how the world ends.
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10:50:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh it saves now? excellent.
10:50:48 <fizzie> It seems to sorta-work for some purposes, but it's all reasonably experimental still.
10:51:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does one enable this saving?
10:52:38 <fizzie> There's just a command to dump the currently-in-memory world into a directory. "//save" (which uses "world" in current dir), or "//save dir" if you want to specify where it goes.
10:53:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, also how comes that part of the --help output is localised to Swedish?
10:54:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm is it able to dump a larger area than that which the server lets you see at a single point in time?
10:55:21 <fizzie> It dumps whatever you have seen during the "session".
10:56:45 <fizzie> I'll probably make it also load an existing dump and in general auto-persist the world on disk at some point, in order to reduce memory use for long-running game sessions where you wander around far and wide.
10:57:07 <fizzie> (Plus that way you'll have the map from the previous session as "background"; should probably shade it or something to indicate it may be out-of-date, though.)
10:57:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, might be a good idea to be able to turn off this tracking in case you don't want that memory overhead. Like when I play on my local test server.
10:58:18 <fizzie> There is currently no way for it to forget any chunks, but there probably should.
10:58:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, any way to tell when it finished saving?
10:58:58 <Vorpal> oh wait, there it comes
10:59:12 <fizzie> Yes, it's suspiciously slow.
10:59:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it is your local copy. As long as it doesn't happen on the actual server. *shrug*
11:00:14 * oerjan has a feeling Vorpal wasn't supposed to have noticed that :D
11:00:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I did read scrollback :P
11:01:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I used an insane amount of TNT on fizzie's place and it corrupted the world data after crashing the server.
11:01:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you find fizzie's hidden chest by any chance?
11:01:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, another question: do signs and such things work? Chests?
11:02:07 <Vorpal> or do you get empty signs and chests?
11:02:35 <Phantom_Hoover> (Although I still looked inside them on the actual server.)
11:03:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't care what you do with your local copy as long as you don't steal anything on the actual server and don't mess it up there either.
11:04:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, notice I have never messed up your place so far, so I assume you won't mess up mine. :)
11:04:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not on the actual server I presume?
11:05:00 <fizzie> Chests will be empty, and signs will be gone completely.
11:05:10 <fizzie> Also furnaces should disappear.
11:05:18 <fizzie> (For some values of "should".)
11:05:25 <fizzie> Possibly just their contents.
11:05:28 <Vorpal> maybe we need an extension like realms or similar. I hope we don't
11:05:40 <fizzie> Okay, then it's just their contents.
11:05:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about crops?
11:06:01 <fizzie> Those should be there.
11:06:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, but isn't the growth stored as aux data?
11:06:44 <fizzie> You can compile-time disable that, though it will also disable //save.
11:09:25 <fizzie> What will not be stored in the //save dump are Entities (mobs, items, paintings, vehicles, primed TNT and currently falling sand) and TileEntities (furnace and chest contents, signs, mob spawner details).
11:09:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, paintings are entities!?
11:09:51 <Vorpal> that explains why they don't work on SMP
11:12:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
11:12:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a jumbled mess of saved chunks and generated ones.
11:13:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw: any progress on the surface-and-heightmap corruption bug?
11:13:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh, did you save before everything loaded?
11:13:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not really. I stared at it, but didn't figure it out.
11:13:46 <fizzie> Yes, it's probably best to wait that the situation is "stable".
11:14:21 <fizzie> The hashmap walk will probably fail in the middle of the save (silently, to boot) if it's modified (read: chunk-update for a so far unseen chunk) during the save.
11:15:45 <fizzie> Except that saving and updates are done by the same thread, so that shouldn't happen.
11:15:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, that must happen a lot since the save takes like 20-30 seconds?
11:16:55 <Vorpal> have fun in your local copy
11:17:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, remember that you only need 5000 TNT going off at once to blow up one obsidian!
11:18:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, to make sure they go off at once I suggest redstone wiring. Be sure to time them right when it comes to inverters (so every TNT have the same number of inverters on the path to it)
11:19:19 <Vorpal> however I'm not sure what this will do to the server
11:19:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, is door position saved btw?
11:19:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, where is your local spawn then?
11:20:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, presumably the area around that spawn is protected
11:20:20 <Phantom_Hoover> That doesn't really explain it; some other chunks are unprotected.
11:20:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you have admin rights on your local hmod server?
11:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but again, that doesn't explain *why* they have the protection.
11:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And I got another world-destroying NullPointerException.
11:21:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any weird plugins?
11:21:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I assume you made a copy before starting the local server?
11:21:36 <Vorpal> if not do that for the next time
11:21:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The world spawn position may be set to something rather weird.
11:22:22 <fizzie> Well, it's supposed to be set to wherever you appeared first when connecting.
11:23:01 <fizzie> (I just took the first PLAYER_MOVE packet sent by the server.)
11:23:55 <fizzie> I should probably take the last seen SPAWN_POSITION packet. (Currently I don't look at those at all.)
11:24:19 <fizzie> Though then it'd be the regular spawn, which might easily be outside the //save'd region.
11:24:28 <fizzie> Possibly I could just use player position at //save time.
11:24:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: In the house or in the bunker?
11:24:57 <fizzie> Then it's empty on the real server too.
11:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I detonated a TNT charge in it and I found a chest.
11:25:08 <Vorpal> based on checking with the interactive map viewer minutor (rather good, and very quick and responsive) the dump I made worked fine
11:26:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the TNT room will hold up just fine. And in case of nuclear war I have always planned to block the door up with obsidian. (since steel door won't last for long against TNT)
11:26:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the server send the random seed to the client or?
11:26:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I just got into the bunker without even bothering with the doors.
11:27:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, fizzie's bunker you mean?
11:27:43 <fizzie> Yes, it's like single block of stone and one layer of dirt.
11:27:47 <fizzie> And yes, the random seed is sent.
11:28:10 <Vorpal> btw it seems you can get bedrock holes again in recent versions
11:28:27 <Vorpal> you know those underground lakes? And lava lakes at non-standard altitudes?
11:28:43 <fizzie> Yes, I've heard you can get a lake over bedrock.
11:28:47 <Vorpal> they can result in holes in the bedrock when they end up at a suitable altitude for that
11:29:07 <fizzie> Re the random seed, you'll of course get post-halloween map-generation even on blocks that would be pre-halloween on our server, if they don't end up in the //save-dump.
11:30:16 <fizzie> I didn't have mcmap when I started with the bunker, which sort-of explains why it's so near the surface. Didn't bother thinking about where I were inside the mountain.
11:30:35 <fizzie> That's also the reason the storage room is L-shaped; I was making it a long I-shaped one, but I hit the mountain wall.
11:32:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, an idea for mcmap which would be cool but is not really high priority: ability to load an image and overlay it on terrain with, say, 25% alpha or such. Perfect when you are doing mega-engineering. Currently I did this with cartographer + gimp but cartographer takes ages.
11:33:40 <Vorpal> it is also useful to check that you did indeed get it right between the point of planning it and it being finished. So you can check the dimensions halfway
11:34:41 <Vorpal> (still the map corruption bug is more important than that idea)
11:36:45 <fizzie> Mhm, well, sure; that could be done.
11:37:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well done. Though blabbing on-channel is a bit impolite!
11:37:40 <fizzie> Now someone will steal all my treasureres.
11:37:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, let me tell you that it would be a sanity saver when working on a 200x200 sized structure. :P And so would fixing the corruption bug when working on the upper parts of said structure
11:38:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, really it was quite easy to find it already with mcmap
11:38:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I had a hunch it was around there since some time when I had mcmap in mode 2 when visiting you and noticed a 1x2 black thing in the wall
11:46:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, for the hell of it, I'm going to send down a 5x5 raft of TNT.
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11:54:56 <Vorpal> hm is the area around spawn never unloaded on servers?
11:55:17 <Vorpal> if so that is the perfect place to place some redstone stuff that should run all the time
11:57:15 <fizzie> "NOTE: This event is not suitable for undergraduate students". I wonder what sort of DIRTY PORNOGRAPHY they're going to show in this three-hour MathWorks-given "Programming Techniques to Speed up MATLAB/Parallel Computing with MATLAB/Symbolic Computing with MATLAB" seminar.
11:58:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have a rather strange mind. Personally it seems perfectly innocent to me. Just meaning "this is too technical for that group" or such
11:59:37 <fizzie> There's no chance whatsover that a three-hour PR session is going to be "too technical" for undergraduates; there must be another reason.
12:00:27 <fizzie> They're not going to come here just out of a desire to be helpful.
12:00:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, are you going to go there?
12:01:04 <fizzie> I don't know. It's three hours I'd never get back; and ineiros attended the previous one and I think it was a bit "meh", IIRC.
12:01:40 <fizzie> On the other hand, there's a half-hour "Break", which might include free cookies.
12:02:49 <fizzie> On the third hand, I didn't know people were actually doing symbolic stuff with MATLAB; that smells a bit desperate to me.
12:03:52 <fizzie> Apparently they've (MathWorks, that is) bought a symbolic algebra company and "integrated" their product as a MATLAB Toolbox now. (Well, now == 2008 in this case.)
12:03:58 <fizzie> (Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MuPAD)
12:07:53 <ineiros> fizzie: They had some useful advice.
12:08:30 <ineiros> fizzie: Though you could get 85% of the information in 15 minutes by reading the slides they provided.
12:08:54 <fizzie> Gawds, I hate the parcel-tracking of the Finnish post office; it has a textfield which auto-empties itself whenever it gains focus. So if you have, say, a parcel ID code in another browser tab in a non-pasteable form, you have to either remember the whole 17-digit number, or transcribe it elsewhere first for pasting. (Because if you write down only part of it, it'll get erased when you switch back to the tab.)
12:12:36 <fizzie> At least it's just the front-page quick-link textfield that does it; the actual tracking-page field doesn't.
12:17:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, in a non-pastable form?
12:18:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, like an image?
12:19:29 <fizzie> Yes. For some unfathomable reason, the "delivered via the web-e-post-system" hey-we-have-your-parcel notes are scan-like images of the ones they deliver on paper.
12:20:16 <fizzie> I guess they're not really scans, since evince does manage to extract text from the "open as PDF" version.
12:20:37 <fizzie> But the thing shown in the web-system is a bona-fide image.
12:21:27 <fizzie> I guess they are "imagey" because they want the bar code to appear properly, and there are form fields for signatures and whatever on it.
12:21:49 <fizzie> Also, the PDF variants have the dubious distinction of being unprintable from Evince.
12:26:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, evince respects copy protection?
12:26:23 <fizzie> No, it just prints them... well, I'll take a photo.
12:26:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it work in other pdf viewers, such as okular?
12:26:56 <fizzie> It works with acroread.
12:27:13 <Vorpal> I had problems printing pdf on some computers but not on other ones
12:27:21 <fizzie> It also shows up just fine on-screen in Evince, it's just the printout that turns out like http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/20110110_001.jpg (the red blocks are my own redactions).
12:27:39 <Vorpal> mostly from my desktop running arch, and it seems to have been related to a cups upgrade.
12:27:45 <Vorpal> (it seems to work again now)
12:28:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah different type of garbling
12:28:17 <fizzie> The barcode in the Evince print is correct, so theoretically speaking it might be that I could use that printout to claim the parcel; I've never bothered to try, though.
12:28:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I see some was *red*acted ;P
12:28:56 <fizzie> That was just my name and address, and I'm not exactly sure why I bothered, since it's not especially difficult to find out.
12:29:21 <fizzie> Well, also the sender company's name.
12:31:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm. Must have been some dirty MathWorks thing then ;P
12:32:04 <fizzie> You caught me: it was a package full of toolboxes. (Well no, not really.)
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13:09:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of movecraft and chests: worldedit managed to move a chest with the //move command just fine. So probably isn't too hard
13:19:28 <fizzie> I have a feeling that in these server-side inventory times, chest contents are only sent on-demand, so //save can't dump chest contents unless the player actually looks inside.
13:23:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw if it helps: the map corruption bug doesn't happen only when placing blocks up high through the client. If you use worldedit to set a block at similar altitudes it also happens. So presumably related to chunk update rather than sending "place block here" kind of message
13:24:46 <fizzie> I've been dumping the chunk-update/set-block/multi-set-block messages, but haven't figured it out yet. I think next thing I'll try (later, though) is to dump only those packets that actually cause map-visible changes. The server keeps sending all kinds of inconsequential block-set packets quite often.
13:24:58 <fizzie> Like setting empty blocks to air, or grass to grass, or leaves to leaves.
13:26:10 <fizzie> Was it so that the topo-map also got corrupted?
13:27:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, haven't seen mode 2 or 3 get corrupted though
13:27:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, so maybe it is not a bug in how you handle the messages but in how you update the surface map?
13:28:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, tried valgrind? Otherwise I'll do it if you tell me how to make a debug build of mcmap
13:29:30 <fizzie> At least a short "okay, it got corrupted" test got no valgrind errors. But of course most of the memory around there is allocated as largeish blocks, and valgrind can't really notice if I just mess up indexing or something.
13:30:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, valgrind in memcheck mode won't tell if you enter another valid object
13:30:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, exp-ptrcheck or ptrcheck-exp or whatever it was called
13:30:32 <Vorpal> for the --tool parameter
13:30:41 <Vorpal> (note: probably even slower than the default memcheck)
13:30:50 <Vorpal> that tracks pointers jumping between objects
13:31:55 <fizzie> The current surface-map update logic is approximately: if placing a block with type T and Y >= current topmost non-air block: set surface on that point to T and height to Y. Then if T was air: rescan from Y down to 0 to find the highest non-air block. Set surface map to that block, and height to that height.
13:32:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, also something I noticed is that the orientation of the player marker seems to lag behind when you rotate the view while in a boat
13:32:53 <fizzie> Mhm, yes, I don't think I track the "entity-look" packets at all.
13:33:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, well it does change, it just lags behind a bit
13:34:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm what happens if you try to teleport with mcmap while in a boat?
13:35:35 <fizzie> I don't really know how it sends looking-around while in a vehicle. For location once you've "attached" to a vehicle, it will send only (0, -999, 0) or some-such as the location; for the view direction it might be more complicated, since there's both the current boat-direction as well as the player view direction.
13:35:52 <fizzie> Perhaps an "illegal move" and a blocked teleport.
13:36:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, -999, how strange
13:36:08 <fizzie> Yes, it was some sort of a nonsense value.
13:36:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, that kind of "explains" that "placing block in the 999 bug z plane"-bug I read about recently though. For some very weird values of explains.
13:37:25 <fizzie> I don't know what sort of packets the client sends when you're "driving" a boat, either.
13:38:15 <fizzie> The usual entity-move packets are all marked as server-to-client only.
13:39:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, in mcmap or in protocol docs?
13:39:16 <fizzie> In protocol docs, though of course those aren't any more official.
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13:51:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah exploring with mcmap made the system swap trash now
13:51:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did you say you disabled this at compile time?
13:52:01 <fizzie> Comment out the FEAT_IFORGETTHENAME #define in config.h and rebuild.
13:52:13 <fizzie> FULLCHUNK or some-such.
13:52:43 <Vorpal> yeah there is only one there, not too hard to find
13:53:09 <fizzie> The forthcoming "unload far-away chunks on disk" code will probably make it easy to also provide a (runtime) mode where it just forgets faraway blocks. They're always re-sent by the server for the client, anyway.
13:54:20 <fizzie> (Though the hash-map based chunk storage isn't the best one for a "which chunks are outside this box?" query.)
14:06:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm is it just me or were the pre-halloween seas much larger than the ones you get nowdays?
14:06:42 <fizzie> I haven't really looked at any large-scale maps.
14:08:51 <fizzie> Heh, there's a (custom) minecraft terrain generator that comes with a FUSE filesystem module; you can mount it into a "world" directory and that way get on-the-fly terrain generator inside an unmodified client. That's quite a clever (if weird) trick.
14:09:31 <fizzie> http://www.nuke24.net/projects/TMCMG/
14:09:38 <fizzie> I don't know about the quality of terrain it generates.
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14:12:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the current terrain generator in beta have some issues with desert biome edges. Looks like blocks that contain both sand and grass ends up with wrong rotation. So that the edge blocks are rotated away from the desert.
14:12:40 <Vorpal> at least it looks like that on a map
14:13:00 <fizzie> Yes, I've wondered about the edges on the map too.
14:21:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that site needs example screenshots from minecraft of the results of using it
14:22:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hard to tell how awesome it is
14:23:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, uh, fuse is on the todo list? https://github.com/TOGoS/TMCMG/raw/master/doc/todo.txt
14:23:25 <fizzie> It also exists already.
14:23:41 <fizzie> https://github.com/TOGoS/TMCMG/raw/master/README "Using with GeneratorFS"
14:24:38 <oklopol> fizzie: coordinates by any chance?
14:25:18 <fizzie> oklopol: No coordinates for you! (That is, I don't really know what's causing the crash in the Windows version.)
14:25:34 <fizzie> How does it fail for you, anyway? For me it just seems to go into a 100% CPU-wastage loop and hang up.
14:25:47 <Vorpal> oklopol, didn't it work when you used it last time and other people spoke?
14:33:00 <oklopol> fizzie: timeout in mc, and the program just disconnects and crashes after a while afaiu
14:33:07 <oklopol> but i could check at some point
14:33:16 <oklopol> Vorpal: it worked for a while
14:33:32 <oklopol> so the bug can't just be that when people talk, it crashes
14:33:39 <oklopol> that's kinda important, maybe, fizzie
14:35:10 <fizzie> Yes, it's a bit of a show-stopper, admittedly.
14:35:11 <oklopol> "<fizzie> http://www.nuke24.net/projects/TMCMG/" "<fizzie> I don't know about the quality of terrain it generates." <<< it's a programming language, it generates what you ask
14:35:17 <oklopol> but basically what you can do is
14:35:50 <oklopol> you have the perlin function, which is a pseudorandom function that gives you random constant size bumps, you can scale it, and gets big bumps and small bumps on top.
14:36:27 <oklopol> and things like cutoffs for different kinds of terrains are easy to do as well, although it's one of the horriblest languages out there
14:36:33 <oklopol> made a couple levels for friends
14:36:50 <oklopol> or one level for them, and a couple for myself, rather
14:37:07 <oklopol> fizzie: i meant, knowing that may be important
14:38:03 <oklopol> maybe the most retarded thing is that you actually have the 3d perlin function
14:38:15 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Great, fuse requires root access. <-- hm... so it does. But I thought only for the initial mount, and for the unmount. Not in between?
14:38:26 <oklopol> but you can't actually say things like insert the 3d coordinates to perlin, and if it goes over cutoff, put diamond here
14:38:38 <oklopol> so you have to reimplement the whole 3d perlin idea by using 2d perlin
14:38:44 <oklopol> or at least, i couldn't find a better way
14:39:16 <fizzie> Oh. Right, right. I'd try a debugger to see where it's hung up, but I don't quite know how to debug a wine-running executable. I'm sure it's somehow possible, though.
14:40:18 <oklopol> also the "fractal" command is quite a letdown in tmcmg
14:40:47 <oklopol> it just means you constant amount of levels of smaller and smaller grained bumps
14:40:59 <oklopol> *you add together a constant
14:41:59 <oklopol> unless i misunderstood it, i never actually tried it because if i understood it correctly, it's pretty useless
14:42:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, how comes you know so much about TMCMG?
14:44:27 <oklopol> i know pretty much everything about it because i read the documentation so i could make a level with it
14:44:36 <oklopol> the docs are like one page
14:44:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, did it work well in the end?
14:44:52 <oklopol> you can call the perlin function, and do basic math on the result.
14:45:19 <oklopol> well i just wanted a world mostly full of sand, so yeah i succeeded well enough :D
14:46:23 <oklopol> there were also some oases
14:46:44 <oklopol> so i made a cutoff that added water and dirt
14:46:53 <oklopol> the perlin function idea makes randomness very nice to handle
14:47:48 <oklopol> because like water and dirt can just look for the same cutoff, and add themselves on different levels below sand level
14:48:06 <Vorpal> hm nice worldedit has a //smooth command that you can use to patch up heightmap edges in the scenery. Mostly for the halloween ones. It seems to work decently when the difference in height is 0-20, but doesn't work very well if more than that. At least not when you only select like 10 blocks on each side of the border. (Tried it on artificial border since my local testing server doesn't have any pre-hal
14:49:10 <Vorpal> oklopol, so for a given x,y,z perlin always return the same value?
14:49:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, any way to add a fourth parameter if you want to randomise different things for the same coord.
14:49:49 <oklopol> you can just add 10000 to the y coordinate to get another perlin function
14:50:18 <oklopol> because you'll actually be using the 3d perlin function to get *heights* of ground at different x, z spots
14:50:57 <oklopol> i don't know if that y+100000 thing was the author's idea originally, to me it seems kinda retarded that you can't just say "put sand where 3d perlin spikes"
14:51:18 <oklopol> you have to have put sand from 1 to perlin height
14:51:30 <oklopol> i mean, in certain cases the former is much better
14:51:34 <oklopol> like in the case of resources
14:51:43 <Vorpal> so what PRNG algorithm is this perlin?
14:51:55 <oklopol> it's a well-known algorithm i first heard about when i read that documentation
14:52:05 <oklopol> of course, he doesn't say anything about the grain size
14:52:28 <fizzie> It's a well-known algorithm I first heard about when I was looking at landscape generation ages ago.
14:52:35 <oklopol> so you have to trial and error that out, unless you know what the standard size is in perlin implementations (he surely didn't write the prng himself)
14:52:46 <fizzie> But it does appear in things like procedural textures quite often.
14:53:19 <oklopol> take a random map of 0 and 1, and add smooth transitions? :P
14:53:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, you could check the source to find out what the grain size is
14:53:35 <fizzie> "The implementation [of simplex noise] used by TMCMG seems to have lower average amplitude than perlin noise, so you may want to multiply the output more to get a similar effect." -- yes, I don't think either one was written by the author here.
14:53:36 <Phantom_Hoover> If it added the wreckage of a spaceship to your spawn point.
14:53:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, being less laggy is like 1000 times more important atm
14:53:54 <oklopol> Vorpal: it's not necessarily easy to see there
14:54:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, better cpu maybe
14:54:19 <oklopol> fizzie: was that from the tbtmbmtmbtmb page?
14:54:44 <fizzie> oklopol: From it's readme, yes.
14:55:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, SMP works fine but in SSP it stutters a lot. And no it isn't low FPS as such, but seemingly random delays a few times every second. Between the FPS seems decent
14:55:48 <oklopol> that comment is a bit ridiculous, since you'll have to adjust your intuition on what perlin looks like to fit the mc scale anyway
14:56:14 <oklopol> unless he means the hills are actually different shape or something, in which case multiplication doesn't help
14:57:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is for simplex. He is just comparing perlin to simplex?
14:57:48 <fizzie> Yes. But it sounds like both implementations come mostly-cribbed from some external source.
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14:58:23 <oklopol> you can tell by the programming language that he either doesn't have a very firm grip on what he's doing, or the project was a really really quick hack
14:58:29 <Vorpal> the idea of that program is good but the implementation seems poor. I guess it is a perfect fit for minecraft then
14:59:19 <oklopol> the language is just silly, or, well, tell me if you like the way argument passing is handled, in my opinion it was really annoying to use
15:00:20 <Vorpal> wikipedia on perlin noise: "The function has a pseudo-random appearance, yet all of its visual details are the same size (see image)." <-- the image doesn't explain what it means here. Exactly what is a "visual detail" and how do you measure it.
15:01:03 <oklopol> i doubt there's a definition that makes it more clear than that
15:01:19 <Vorpal> oklopol, do you mean the width of the white parts such?
15:01:38 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
15:01:40 <Vorpal> which is approximately the same it seems.
15:02:01 <oklopol> it's not white noise, it's a desert
15:02:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:02:23 <Vorpal> oklopol, uh does "desert" have some technical meaning in this context?
15:02:36 <oklopol> just a desert. not really the best possible way to put it.
15:02:58 <oklopol> deserts have waves, not bumps
15:05:01 <Vorpal> oklopol, deserts can have that but there are different types. Stony ones for example.
15:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, surely it's clear what visual details means here.
15:07:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but is it rigorous?
15:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you could formulate it in terms of self-similarity.
15:08:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. That might work yes
15:13:04 <oklopol> i would formulate it based on some sort of second order differential, how fast, on average, the slope is changing
15:13:15 <oklopol> dunno what you mean by self-similarity
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15:14:23 <oklopol> slope change + average i suppose
15:14:46 <oklopol> well, dunno if that works, it's a characteristic but maybe not really sufficient
15:15:27 <Vorpal> oklopol, I assumed he meant to define it by the fractal nature of it somehow-
15:16:07 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm maybe not.
15:16:11 <Vorpal> your way sounds better
15:16:13 <oklopol> isn't that exactly what it doesn't have
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15:16:34 <oklopol> because if you look at it from further away, it will look *different*, bumps are smaller
15:17:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, so define it by the lack of fractal nature?
15:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> it has fractal nature? ← that's my point, there's no fractalness.
15:18:20 <oklopol> it's just "fractal nature" and fractals in general make my "meaningless bullshit" sensor tick, sort like turing completeness, heard one meaning less too many
15:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't make it look the same by scaling up or down.
15:19:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but since it is PRNG won't it eventually cycle? Given a large enough region.
15:19:52 <oklopol> first of all a prng doesn't have to cycle even if it's just a function from integers
15:20:45 <oklopol> at least not in a sense that would mean grains appear again
15:21:47 <Vorpal> oklopol, however I guess it might when expanding to a larger region being generated at the same zoom level.
15:22:06 <oklopol> what is true is that if you hold a constant size slot of bits B, compute some random value, and recompute the contents of B to get a new seed, then certainly the random values will cycle
15:22:21 <oklopol> Vorpal: might, doesn't have to tho
15:23:04 <oklopol> it could increase state as it moves further, and do more complicated computation
15:23:42 <oklopol> if nth bit can be computed in O(1) after computing the n-1 first ones, then it'll eventually cycle, i think
15:23:54 <oklopol> but not sure if that's amortized
15:24:08 <oklopol> really i'm so tired i might be spouting complete bullshit here.
15:24:30 <oklopol> *not sure that's true if the O(1) is amortized
15:24:46 <oklopol> it's not even true if it's not amortized, actually
15:24:55 <oklopol> for instance you could have it print 01001000100001 etc
15:25:01 <cheater-> oklopol: http://www.secretmaryo.org/index.php?page=game_downloads
15:25:23 <oklopol> that constant sequence is not very random, but at least my theorem is not true
15:25:42 <oklopol> so yeah, spouting bullshit here, you may just as well ignore me till tomorrow
15:25:57 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:26:31 <cheater-> no i mean the "ignore until tomorrow"
15:26:47 <oklopol> why did you give it to *me*?
15:26:55 <cheater-> oklopol: you were in the blasting radius
15:27:00 <oklopol> cheater-: i was just kidding too, i'm very often wrong
15:27:09 <cheater-> oklopol: not true! you're always right.
15:28:01 <oklopol> i wanna talk to him about semigrops
15:28:15 <oklopol> oh right, i told him i would, so he's probably in a bunker somewhere
15:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Have all of the things to say about semigroups not already been said?
15:33:17 <oklopol> iirc at least one of the branches of the current theory is about a very special case of inverse semigroups, which are exactly semigroups of partial injective functions
15:34:08 <oklopol> should know what that special case was
15:34:23 <oklopol> but anyway it's a reeeeeally beautiful theory
15:34:30 <oklopol> inverse semigroups are much sexier than groups
15:34:48 <oklopol> (they are a superset of groups tho)
15:35:09 <Vorpal> oklopol, out of curiosity, what exactly is a semigroup?
15:35:24 <oklopol> set is closed under the op
15:35:37 <Vorpal> oklopol, isn't that what a group is? (set + operation)?
15:35:50 <oklopol> associativity means (a*b)*c = a*(b*c)
15:36:01 <Vorpal> I know what associativity is in general yes.
15:36:30 <oklopol> Vorpal: groups always have inverses, and they always have an identity element
15:36:46 <oklopol> and a semigroup with identity but not necessarily inverses is a monoid
15:37:17 <Vorpal> oklopol, "not necessarily" as in "some members of the set might have inverses"?
15:37:58 <oklopol> and monoids are semigroups
15:39:22 <oklopol> it's a weird name, i didn't like it at first, but now it's just a name to me
15:40:24 <oklopol> Vorpal: regular semigroups on the other hand have inverses (with a different definition), but not necessarily an identity element
15:40:30 <Vorpal> oklopol, would the set of all nxn matrices for a given constant n and the operation matrix multiplication be a semi-group?
15:40:41 <oklopol> (in fact if they have an identity, they are just groups)
15:40:47 <Vorpal> (or monid even I guess)
15:41:18 <Vorpal> oklopol, well obviously not a group indeed. Not all elements have inverses
15:41:25 <Vorpal> oklopol, *that* bit is trivial :P
15:41:28 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: no monoid is 2/3 isn't it?
15:41:54 <oklopol> Vorpal: what is not trivial then? the fact that matrix multiplication is associative is pretty obvious if you think of them as linear transformations
15:42:17 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, I was just wondering if there was some other snag.
15:42:22 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: x's inverse is a y such that x = xyx
15:43:04 <oklopol> or maybe it's not strictly obvious that it's associative even if you think about them as linear transformations, but anyhow everyone knows that!
15:43:20 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm x = xyx doesn't imply y = yxy in such a case I guess?
15:43:39 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: inverse semigroups are when you assume a *unique* x^-1 such that x and x^-1 are each other's inverses
15:44:15 <oklopol> Vorpal: it doesn't, necessarily, although you can prove that in a regular semigroup, all elements x have a pair y such that x = xyx, y = yxy
15:44:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, what property guarantees that?
15:44:55 <oklopol> in fact, if x = xyx, then x = xyx = x.yxy.x, and yxy.x.yxy = yxy, so yxy is such a pair
15:45:04 <oklopol> Vorpal: my proof guarantees it
15:45:22 <oklopol> i can clarify if you're not used to following that kind of stuff
15:45:38 <oklopol> well maybe that's easy to read
15:45:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, what is the . there in that notation
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15:46:26 <Vorpal> oklopol, you need to drop associativity for that to no longer work I guess
15:46:48 <oklopol> yeah associativity is very crucial, because it allows rewriting strings context-freely
15:46:57 <oklopol> i mean context sensitively
15:47:16 <oklopol> you can rewrite something, and then use parts of it in another rewrite
15:48:18 <oklopol> in xyx = x.yxy.x, i rewrite the x.y.x to x.y.xyx, but then i split the result in a different way to obtain x.yxy.x
15:48:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, I never disputed this
15:48:41 <oklopol> not a very good example because i don't actually use that new decomposition for anything, but that was all i had
15:48:57 <oklopol> Vorpal: just trying to make it clear what i mean
15:49:14 <oklopol> because IT WAS SOOOOOOO COMPLEX
15:49:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, not really no
15:49:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, it was clear once you said what you meant by . :P
15:50:33 <oklopol> oh, when i said why associativity is crucial, i wasn't talking about that example, but proving things for semigroups in general
15:52:02 <oklopol> so a semilattice is a semigroup such that all its elements are idempotent x^2 = x, and its elements commute, xy = yx; let S be an inverse semigroup, let us prove its idempotents form a semilattice under the semigroup operation
15:52:09 <oklopol> let e, f be two idempotents
15:52:17 <oklopol> consider the unique inverse x of ef
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15:52:43 <oklopol> ef = efxef = ef.xe.ef = ef.fe.ef by the fact e and f are idempotent
15:52:44 <Vorpal> oklopol, err can't say I'm very familiar with lattices
15:52:57 <elliott> 21:00:25 <oklopol> according to the guy who deduced how clue works from ski
15:53:10 <oklopol> also xe.ef.xe = x.ef.xe = xe because x is the inverse of ef
15:54:00 <oklopol> now, xx = xe.fx = x because x is ef's inverse => x is an idempotent
15:54:19 <oklopol> but if x is an idempotent, then x^3 = x, and so x is its own unique inverse, which must mean x = ef!
15:54:30 <oklopol> therefore, the product of two idempotents is idempotent
15:54:36 <oklopol> now, let's prove commutativity
15:55:00 <Vorpal> oklopol, so what is a lattice then? (And isn't that word used for different things in different areas of mathematics)
15:55:05 <oklopol> ef and fe are idempotent by what we already proved, ef.fe.ef = ef.ef = ef by the fact e and f are idempotents
15:55:18 <oklopol> so ef and fe are each other's unique inverses
15:55:25 <oklopol> but again, they are also their own inverses => ef = fe
15:55:48 <oklopol> elliott: not completely, he knew the basic idea.
15:55:52 <elliott> Vorpal: wtf happened to your throne room
15:56:00 <Vorpal> elliott, something happened to it?
15:56:06 <oklopol> Vorpal: you don't have to be familiar with lattices, since i was talking about semilattices :D
15:56:52 <oklopol> a lattice is something more complicated, if you remember what boolean algebras were (the abstract axiom-based definition), lattices are boolean algebras with a few less axioms.
15:56:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll check soon. Minecraft.net seems down. But then I suspect PH. He talked about doing it in a local copy saved with mcmap (it has that feature now) but if he did it on the server then fuck him.
15:57:18 <oklopol> basically, there isn't necessarily a "0" or "1", and there is no complementation
15:57:27 <oklopol> just union and intersection
15:58:08 <oklopol> (that have to satisfy a series of axioms, they don't actually have to be unions or intersections on a set though, just arbitrary binary ops that satisfy the axioms)
15:58:43 <Vorpal> elliott, not blown up?
15:58:54 <oklopol> anyhow that's one of my favorite proofs, why aren't you more excited :(
15:59:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh elliott?
15:59:43 <elliott> I just wanted to see if you'd freak
16:00:13 <Vorpal> elliott, hardly more than you would if told that the cube was blown up (once done). You would probably also go online to check :P
16:01:10 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I'd go online and immediately destroy Mount Vorpal, most likely.
16:01:16 <oklopol> also everyone knows elliott is a crazy mythomaniac
16:01:17 <elliott> NOTE TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BLOW UP THE CUBE: probably a bad idea.
16:01:41 <elliott> oklopol: so anyway i designed cled in the logs
16:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, why on earth. It could have been nailor.
16:01:57 <oklopol> too UNINTERESTING; didn't read
16:02:12 <Vorpal> elliott, and I wouldn't blow it up. I'm not like you.
16:02:30 <elliott> Vorpal: It's more like an incentive for everyone because they'd have to listen to you scream if it happened
16:02:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So how fucked up is the lighting?
16:02:33 <oklopol> nailor's door was locked :(
16:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Vorpal: No, I'd go online and immediately destroy Mount Vorpal, most likely. ← did that on the local copy.
16:03:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I ended up corrupting the world file due to Notch-quality engineering.
16:04:50 <elliott> 02:56:45 <fizzie> I'll probably make it also load an existing dump and in general auto-persist the world on disk at some point, in order to reduce memory use for long-running game sessions where you wander around far and wide.
16:04:52 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:05:00 <elliott> fizzie: Do it the sane way; just use mmap and let the OS handle it for you.
16:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you realise that isn't sane when there is a shitload of small files?
16:05:31 <Vorpal> as opposed to a number of large ones
16:05:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Umm, he should store them in one file and then convert for //save, duh.
16:05:48 <elliott> No reason to be as stupidly-architectured as the client.
16:05:51 <Vorpal> elliott, many files are smaller than the page size. Besides they are gzip compressed.
16:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And mcmap's internal data structures are different to MC's internal ones.
16:06:07 <Vorpal> elliott, still, do you suggest storing them uncompressed?
16:06:15 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be huge.
16:06:22 <elliott> It's just for what you've seen in the current session...
16:07:03 <Vorpal> yes it sounds like it would be able to load dumps when starting?
16:07:27 <Vorpal> meaning they would be between sessions
16:08:35 <Sgeo> elliott, to get something like Slate working on Windows, would I compile using Cygwin, or MinGW?
16:08:42 * Sgeo barely knows the difference
16:08:58 <elliott> fizzie: mcmap -c on OS X gives me unloaded chunks all around my current location.
16:09:16 <elliott> Sgeo: or just use linux, it's unlikely to work on win.
16:10:25 <elliott> fizzie: Dude, is it totally broken for everyone else?
16:14:40 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
16:16:11 <elliott> Vorpal: to build debug mcmap, make debug=1
16:17:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:17:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess the symlink at ./mcmap will no longer work?
16:17:39 <elliott> I refuse to answer that yourself since you can figure it out in 3 seconds.
16:17:47 <Sgeo_> elliott, do you know Mercury?
16:17:48 <elliott> Also, separating normal and debug builds is a good thing.
16:17:51 <elliott> Actually, you don't need to clean.
16:17:55 <elliott> make debug=1 will put it in _debug.
16:18:01 <elliott> So you can keep your current build.
16:18:01 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is a good idea to separate them
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16:54:21 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if you still come back, wanna tell me if i'm on your map?
16:54:50 <oklopol> i didn't go *that* far, and i was thinking settling down
16:55:58 <oklopol> you're blowing it up locally or what?
16:56:31 <oklopol> just checking, not a good time building a home if you're abandoning the world or something
16:57:24 <elliott> also oklopol building a house? weird
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17:00:13 <cheater-> oklopol: so, i heard i was trying to disprove clue works at all
17:00:47 <cheater-> oklopol: i sometimes do things without knowing. i'm sorry if you felt bad about my sleepwalking argumentative self
17:01:13 <oklopol> i didn't feel bad about anything
17:01:16 * elliott compiles a few clue programs
17:01:24 <elliott> shit, you're right, it actually just spews out python errors :D
17:01:34 <elliott> $ python repl.py qsort.clue
17:02:05 -!- Vorpal has joined.
17:08:25 <elliott> oklopol: omg cled is actually working :D
17:09:04 <elliott> oklopol: http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png
17:09:12 <elliott> oklopol: this is a graphical representation of {. 0 1 -> 1 . 0 5 -> 5 }
17:09:23 <elliott> i can even move about and ascend and descend the tree and everything
17:09:45 <elliott> Sgeo_: that was removed a while ago
17:09:59 <elliott> also i can press cmd+s and it prints the tree
17:10:31 <oklopol> i don't get why i had the comma, i never have those in my languages
17:11:19 <elliott> oklopol: dude http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png
17:11:24 <elliott> LOOK AT THE BEAUTIFUL UGLY?
17:12:10 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:12:40 <elliott> oklopol: in fact it's very similar to aardappel, since in aardappel you name func params with example values :P
17:12:43 <elliott> clue just does it PROPERLY
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17:15:42 <Sgeo_> I saw ---> as a solid arrow and was wondering how it would be typed in a real program
17:16:40 <elliott> Sgeo_: With cled, -> IS a solid arrow! http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png
17:17:06 * Sgeo_ is talking about Mercury
17:18:44 <oklopol> yeah, was just thinking that
17:19:13 <elliott> oklopol: was just thinking what
17:19:28 <oklopol> aardappel has a property clue has, and you're making an editor that looks like a non-ugly version of the aardappel editod
17:19:57 <elliott> oklopol: i wouldn't exactly call that screenshot non-ugly, but at least it doesn't have stupid pictures everywhere :)
17:20:02 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i have forgotten all context
17:20:03 <elliott> also you can't really edit aardappel with the keyboard
17:20:06 <elliott> whereas all of this is keyboard-based
17:20:17 <oklopol> want you to help me, that i do yes, if you log in, check if i'm on your map
17:20:26 <elliott> oklopol: in fact I think that editing with this will take quite a bit fewer keystrokes than editing wtih a file
17:21:40 <elliott> oklopol: i gotta say something though
17:21:49 <elliott> oklopol: why can't you have zero-arg functions in clue
17:22:11 <Sgeo_> \" (had the database
17:22:11 <Sgeo_> community known about maybe types they never would have invented NULLs
17:22:11 <Sgeo_> and wrecked the relational model. . . "
17:22:19 <oklopol> i just didn't want zero arg functions
17:22:36 <fizzie> Meh: GLib-GIO:ERROR:gsocket.c:2347:remove_condition_watch: assertion failed: (g_list_find (socket->priv->requested_conditions, condition) != NULL)
17:22:43 <elliott> oklopol: you can't define _ in clue, that's not very elegant :)
17:22:45 <oklopol> because they are completely useless, and {. -> 3 } looks wrong
17:22:58 <elliott> oklopol: so useless that you defined one as a primitive
17:23:16 <oklopol> yeah that used to be useful
17:23:20 <elliott> oklopol: ok well... why can't you return multiple values
17:23:25 <elliott> that would be more symmetrical
17:23:25 <oklopol> and it will be again, when i add higher-order funcs
17:23:35 <oklopol> you should definitely be able to return multiple values
17:23:48 <oklopol> that's even more important than multiparam
17:24:00 <oklopol> multiparam is more dangerous
17:24:09 <elliott> oklopol: what would f(multiple value returner(x)) do
17:24:25 <oklopol> in clue, you don't have to think about that
17:24:48 <elliott> presumably None or whatever
17:24:51 <elliott> and the code gen would arrange for like
17:24:57 <elliott> multiple value returner@2(x)
17:25:13 <elliott> oklopol: now what i'd really like to be possible
17:25:23 <elliott> oklopol: you wanna know why?
17:25:31 <elliott> oklopol: as it is, currently, in cled, the program is not always a valid ast
17:25:42 <elliott> oklopol: when you create an example, it creates two Hole objects (or, well, it will when i code that)
17:25:48 <elliott> these can't be serialised to value clue
17:25:54 <elliott> they're just so that you can enter them, specify what type they are
17:26:05 <elliott> if you could have N inputs and N outputs, it could just have two empty input and output lists
17:26:09 <elliott> and you'd add them at your leisure
17:26:19 <elliott> and the tree would always be a valid clue tree
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17:27:47 <oklopol> zero inputs and outputs would work just fine if "side-effects" are ever added, which i might just do at some point, not the binary output stream approach tho
17:28:06 <elliott> oklopol: ew no side-effects, that's so lame
17:28:16 <elliott> oklopol: but uh, basically a function with zero outputs would never be called I think
17:28:18 <elliott> as part of a generated program
17:28:30 <elliott> because you can only call a function as (func@(result number)(params))
17:28:34 <elliott> and since result numbers start at 0
17:28:38 <elliott> there's no valid number for a zero-output function
17:28:43 <elliott> but the point is, it'd make cled more elegant :)
17:28:52 <elliott> since having the tree in an invalid state is just lame
17:29:02 <elliott> it could have you specify the inputs and outputs before it let you do anything else, but that feels annoyingly restricting
17:29:04 <oklopol> it could be called, it's output just wouldn't be numbered
17:29:13 <oklopol> with the current implementation, no, it wouldn't be called
17:30:02 <elliott> oklopol: well the way i see it is the simplest way to impl it would be to turn every func call from
17:30:17 <cheater00> oklopol: ok, if you didn't feel bad, but elliott has given me shit already, maybe i should start talking shit about clue, just to cash in my debt ;p
17:30:24 <elliott> that way you can't have f(multiple args(foo)), it's always f(multiple args@0(foo)) or @1 etc
17:30:36 <elliott> so since 0 is first result, for a zero input function, there is no valid @ number
17:31:30 <oklopol> ENOUGHEONUGENOUGHEOUGNEOUGHE
17:32:39 <oklopol> no i thought that was a good ending
17:32:49 <elliott> oklopol: so uh got any suggestions for cled that don't involve holes
17:32:56 <elliott> it could be that if you + to add an example
17:33:03 <oklopol> i just play minecraft and be a happy!
17:33:16 <elliott> oklopol: so um is clue abandoned :p
17:33:36 <variable> Perl is a general purpose language. It's also known to be the only widespread use obfuscated language.
17:33:46 <cheater00> oklopol: so do u vant to normalize clue?
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17:34:08 <cheater00> oklopol: i think clue could actually lift off really well, there's nothing else that does what clue does
17:34:19 <elliott> that's funny, this channel has only been witness to "perl is esolang" sentiments about 1000000 times :D
17:34:24 <oklopol> cheater00: it could totally become mainstream!
17:34:40 <cheater00> and with the current extreme TDD approach and python lifting off it could make me famous
17:34:40 <oklopol> but i'm not working on it today, no
17:34:52 <cheater00> but the idea is to come up with a spec
17:35:03 <fizzie> Gnar, I don't get why the Win build fails; it is as if it just decides to close the connection.
17:35:06 <elliott> i think some random anon added it and nobody bothered to remove it.
17:35:17 <variable> elliott, it should be kept - tis true
17:35:22 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't suppose you see any sort of "GLib-GIO" error message on your end when it goes?
17:35:47 <elliott> but esoteric shouldn't be applied to every language just because people think it's weird.
17:35:48 <oklopol> fizzie: doesn't ring a bell
17:36:05 <elliott> lol @ cheater00 thinking clue is practical
17:36:07 <fizzie> I get one, but I don't know, it might be just a side-effect of the connection disconnectering.
17:36:19 <oklopol> hey clue is TOTALLY practical
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17:37:13 <elliott> oklopol: you have to swear now to always use cled for everything
17:37:14 <cheater00> oklopol: i believe it could become a practical language
17:37:19 <elliott> cheater00: it really couldn't :)
17:37:20 <cheater00> and/or framework for existing languages
17:37:27 <elliott> it seems like it could, before you figure out how it actually works.
17:37:47 <oklopol> for certain values of practical
17:37:52 <variable> elliott, what should I call my random chance language ?
17:37:59 <cheater00> oklopol: i feel it's a fairly new paradigm
17:38:20 <cheater00> oklopol: i think in fact what you got right now - the language in itself - is just very basic
17:38:28 <elliott> also, it's a new paradigm because it's amazingly stupid ... in that puttign it into practice is nearly impossible
17:38:40 <cheater00> elliott: it's how retarded people pronounce troll.
17:39:14 <cheater00> oklopol: i think you could have multiple very languages very distant from eachother, derived from clue, just using different inference methods
17:39:36 <cheater00> oklopol: because those inference methods are actually what defines clue
17:39:48 <cheater00> oklopol: hence i was talking about defining your own inference methods
17:40:36 <cheater00> oklopol: i think clue is a bit near to the automatic prover territory, isn't it?
17:41:38 <elliott> cheater00: also example-based programming isn't really a HUGE NEW IDEA
17:41:50 <elliott> "omg different inference engines"
17:41:59 <elliott> "chuck out all of the current work on clue and keep the obvious core idea!"
17:42:04 <elliott> which is stupid because the work was the hard part
17:42:50 <elliott> cheater00: um what i'm saying is perfectly true
17:44:07 <cheater00> oklopol: that's where the business always is.
17:44:51 <cheater00> i'm gonna go make some breakfast and watch the ballet dancers next door
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17:56:08 <oklopol> to do what, send me pictures of ballet dancers?
17:56:45 <oklopol> but if someone was encouraging me to be oklopol (elliott), i would be really pleased
17:57:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: be oklopol
17:58:40 <Vorpal> elliott, Processing... ... ... Error 49123: Mutant produced. Details: Now Vorpol.
17:58:56 <elliott> Is that like Vorpal but intelligent?
17:59:07 <cheater00> i wouldn't want to be someone who has "toilet" as part of their name
17:59:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it is like the most extreme sides of me and oklopol
17:59:39 <elliott> So incredibly stupid and irritating and awesome and intelligent?
17:59:41 <elliott> oklopol: What have you done
17:59:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it was you who did it
18:01:26 <cheater00> oklopol: http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed§Hdr=on&spellToler=&search=klo
18:03:10 <elliott> oklopol has "lo" in his name
18:03:32 <elliott> and obviously i'm input and output
18:03:43 <elliott> Vorpal is clearly everyone's PAL
18:03:50 <oklopol> really i could just go back to playing locally, you guys are never here
18:03:54 <elliott> wow this is like reading tea leaves but better
18:04:01 <elliott> oklopol: i was on but then you DIDN'T LET ME VISIT
18:04:10 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact I'm into VORs since I'm into flightsims :P
18:04:12 <oklopol> well obviously i don't want to see any of you
18:04:32 <elliott> cheater00: no, you're che guevara
18:04:33 <Vorpal> elliott, it's a type of omnidirectional navigational beacon.
18:05:09 <Vorpal> elliott, and you move impure IO (ellIOtt)
18:05:22 <elliott> 18:03 elliott: and obviously i'm input and output
18:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, oh missed that
18:05:29 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: you're j. edgar hoover
18:05:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're an ant named Tom.
18:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott, which is over something
18:06:22 <elliott> cheater00: I think you're gender-neutral
18:06:24 <Vorpal> that explains the channel
18:06:56 <elliott> He or she is off-topic, Eric.
18:07:01 <elliott> the only remaining question is
18:07:02 <Vorpal> cheater00, no, he is a news agency
18:07:10 <Vorpal> cheater00, (TT is a Swedish news agency)
18:07:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I said it was OT in it yes
18:07:35 <elliott> but i decoded the whole thing
18:07:39 <elliott> #esoteric -> E's OT, Eric.
18:07:43 <elliott> He or she's off-topic, Eric.
18:07:49 <cheater00> this channel is about Eric the Esot
18:09:08 <cheater00> which makes no sense because there's nothing named OPO
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18:19:08 <Vorpal> <elliott> #esoteric -> E's OT, Eric. <-- hm
18:19:27 <Vorpal> <elliott> WHAT IST BROKE <-- your connection was broke before
18:19:37 <Vorpal> + elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:19:53 <Vorpal> elliott, the TCP connection was broken.
18:19:56 <drakhan> elliott, as for my person - I`m new here
18:20:30 <elliott> are you on one of those horrible keyboard layouts where you can't put an apostrophe in properly
18:20:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well /whois says .pl, you could check that
18:22:05 <elliott> It's your preference to use backticks instead of apostrophes?
18:22:23 <oklopol> even diamonds feel worthless when your items are all made of it for free :(
18:22:42 <elliott> I'm just curious, since it makes lines harder to read.
18:23:37 <elliott> "Somewhat typical of PHP’s API, there are actually thirteen different built-in array sorting functions."
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18:28:13 <quintopia> PHP's design philosophy is "you should never have to write any real algorithms. any algorithm that actually does something difficult should be built in."
18:28:33 <elliott> quintopia: "Except that, we'll actually implement it badly."
18:28:39 <elliott> Apparently usort() used to be — wait for it — BUBBLESORT.
18:28:56 <quintopia> friend of mine wrote bot in php and i said "it should have a rot13 function" and he determined that the best method to implement it ... would be to make a call to rot13() >_>
18:29:13 <elliott> Apparently they left their CS classes in the three seconds between "This is bubblesort" and "NEVER USE BUBBLESORT."
18:29:26 <j-invariant> Maybe one should have to aquire a liscence to write algorithms
18:29:48 <elliott> j-invariant: european computer mechanics license
18:29:53 <elliott> (there's a european computer driving license)
18:30:00 <elliott> (it is a hilariously easy Microsoft Office thing)
18:30:05 <j-invariant> of course if you have a full proof that you algorithm works you can use a provisional algorithm liscence to have it uploaded into a sandbox
18:30:35 <quintopia> but it can never be actually used unless it is also experimentally determined to be efficient in practice
18:30:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the horrible one
18:31:01 <elliott> quintopia: bitch, you can work that out without testing it
18:31:07 <elliott> if your theory doesn't match practice your theory wasn't good enough
18:31:10 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: the one with the near-guaranteed quadratic runtime in number-of-comparisons
18:31:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_sort#Implementation
18:32:19 <oklopol> "<quintopia> PHP's design philosophy is "you should never have to write any real algorithms. any algorithm that actually does something difficult should be built in."" <<< somehow i doubt it actually has any useful algorithms in it
18:32:20 <quintopia> elliott: sure, but sometimes it's easier to test it on all the possible hardware platforms than prove for each instruction set (and the respective latencies) that the constants in the runtime are low
18:32:35 <elliott> quintopia: instructions are irrelevant, mostly
18:32:36 <fizzie> oklopol: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-win-fba7271.zip and then just doubleklick the .exe.
18:32:44 <elliott> you don't get "oh this c code is really slow on sparc but really fast on x86"
18:32:57 <elliott> just takes one level of abstraction to even those out
18:33:03 <oklopol> i mean say if i want to turn an NFA into a DFA
18:33:39 <oklopol> that's basically the only thing you'll ever need
18:33:39 <elliott> oklopol: nfatodfa($nfa) OR nfa_convert('Dfa',$nfa,2) (the 2 is to disable the old version of the function)
18:33:43 <quintopia> elliott: it's mainly an issue when involving floating point stuff, memory/disk access, and other I/O
18:34:04 <elliott> or automatonConvt($nfa, getconv('NFA'), getconv('DFA'), $output)
18:34:49 <elliott> oh man how did i break this
18:35:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: qsort is not really something that should be used.
18:35:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: worst-case performance
18:35:20 <oklopol> and what about that algorithm that solves the two-pair case of pcp?
18:35:29 <elliott> --> if you sort arbitrary user-inputted data
18:35:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: e.g. merge sort is much better
18:35:53 <elliott> oklopol: do merge sort in clue :P
18:36:02 <quintopia> is there an in-place sort with the performance guarantee of merge sort?
18:36:05 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd, but then i not'd.
18:36:21 <oklopol> quintopia: i think there's an in-place merge sort
18:36:40 <oklopol> but that's kinda hairy, if i recall correctly
18:37:06 <oklopol> also you can do quicksort without recursion, i think
18:37:18 <quintopia> but you don't get any better worst case performance
18:37:22 <elliott> just use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timsort
18:37:23 <oklopol> heap sort is very fast, and can be done in-place
18:37:38 <oklopol> quintopia; merge sort is worst case n log n
18:37:38 <elliott> i don't think it's in-place but
18:37:42 <oklopol> quintopia: do what in-place?
18:37:46 <elliott> mergesort or if you're feeling fancy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timsort
18:38:33 <fizzie> quintopia: You can do merge-sort in-place and some variants have even been described by Finnish guys: http://www.diku.dk/hjemmesider/ansatte/jyrki/Paper/mergesort_NJC.ps
18:38:34 <oklopol> oh well you use an array, and 1 (2 3) (4 5 6 7) (8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15) ... where those are the levels of the tree
18:38:44 <elliott> fizzie: Finnish guys, what would we do without them.
18:38:53 <oklopol> you can then multiply index by 2 and either add 1 or 0 to get to children, and divide by 2 to get to daddy
18:39:24 <elliott> is this in a cruel world where all list mothers run away
18:40:13 <oklopol> fizzie: lol no wonder a prof at our uni mentioned it
18:40:24 <elliott> it's actually funny how broken this is...
18:40:28 <oklopol> jukka teuhola is a prof at our uni
18:40:33 <elliott> well more like, depressing
18:40:39 <oklopol> katajainen hangs there too
18:40:50 <fizzie> oklopol: Yeah, we hear about Kohonen maps all the time at WaveU.
18:41:02 <elliott> fizzie: oh god don't call it that
18:41:14 <elliott> so wait how old is fizzie now, 47?
18:41:38 <fizzie> (Also WSOM 2011 deadline is Jan 14th, submit your full papers now!)
18:41:47 <oklopol> oh it's even PRACTICAL in-place mergesort :D
18:42:06 <elliott> oklopol: i want to see the previous paper, Impractical In-Place Mergesort
18:42:20 <elliott> oklopol: "average O(2^n), but hey, it's in-place mergesort!"
18:42:29 <cheater00> oklopol: can you write fib with clue?
18:42:35 <fizzie> And the earliest draft, "completely useless out-of-place mergesort".
18:42:53 <elliott> cheater00: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p6379491136.txt
18:43:03 <elliott> j-invariant: yes, with more pain than anyone should have to endure :D
18:43:48 <oklopol> j-invariant: has been done, so yeah
18:44:15 <oklopol> for instance parsing is nicest to do with mutual rec
18:44:37 <j-invariant> is there a clever way to do it though? by reflecting the way clue works
18:44:39 <elliott> that's totally the main reason
18:44:45 <elliott> j-invariant: nope, not even remotely
18:44:50 <elliott> you can't harness it at runtime at all
18:45:09 <j-invariant> but maybe there could be a slightly modified form of clue
18:45:17 <j-invariant> which allows for a nontrivial self interpreter
18:45:28 <elliott> well it's not really an interp
18:45:32 <elliott> clue is pretty inherently a compiler
18:46:18 <oklopol> clue could even be thought of as a metalanguage
18:46:38 <oklopol> (but hopefully people don't)
18:47:50 <j-invariant> Are there some detailed pages on Clue with source code?
18:48:31 <oklopol> there's the esolang page, that's it
18:48:32 <quintopia> isn't the probability of getting O(n^2) runtime for a random-pivot quicksort unbelievably low?
18:48:46 <elliott> quintopia: yes, but the point is that you can't trust your users.
18:48:55 <elliott> it's easy to craft such inputs
18:49:05 <elliott> quintopia: also, why bother? merge sort is just as easy
18:49:21 <quintopia> i'm just trying to understand the theory man
18:49:24 <oklopol> merging is almost the same thing as pivoting
18:49:26 <quintopia> i'm not the guy in charge of this shit
18:49:40 <oklopol> just the other one unzips, the other one zips
18:49:41 <quintopia> where can i find these carefully crafted inputs?
18:50:04 <oklopol> quintopia: no he means if you run qs on user-given input on your server, then ppl can give crafted inputs that make slow it up
18:50:31 <oklopol> you can craft such inputs if you know how pivoting is done
18:50:35 <elliott> this shit is well-known btw
18:50:36 <quintopia> oklopol: yes, but i don't see how any adversary could slow a random-pivot quicksort
18:50:44 <quintopia> it seems like random pivoting is unbeatable
18:51:06 <elliott> sure, if you use a crypto rng
18:51:06 <oklopol> i don't know if it *is* though
18:51:12 <elliott> merge sort is nicer anyway
18:51:35 <elliott> also quicksort is unstable
18:51:58 <elliott> quintopia: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.44.5903
18:52:35 <elliott> anyway the theoretical worst-case performance is reason enough :)
18:52:59 <quintopia> i was already convinced. you were preaching to the choir
18:53:15 <quintopia> i'm just curious about the theory of DoSing qs
18:53:57 <cheater00> oklopol: you need an easier character to type than > for the "goes to" symbol in clue
18:54:33 <elliott> > is trivial to type, if it isn't your layout sucks
18:54:34 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `type'
18:54:43 <elliott> stop bothering us with your petty concerns :|
18:54:51 <oklopol> cheater00: i have to agree with elliott, that is even less interesting than elliott's additions! :P
18:55:08 <elliott> oklopol: i totally removed branchers, man
18:55:10 <cheater00> oklopol: the most important reason for me to use python over php is that it doesn't use braces :D
18:55:12 <elliott> and implemented your default thing
18:55:22 <cheater00> oklopol: being able to type in code without shift is veddy important
18:55:22 <oklopol> elliott: everyone ignored them already :D
18:55:35 <elliott> oklopol: i did #x into x, that's like
18:55:45 <cheater00> oklopol: can you do map/reduce with clue?
18:56:00 <elliott> because it has no first-class functions
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18:56:19 <cheater00> what about map/reduce with a hardcoded reduction
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18:57:33 <elliott> :: sum ~ {. [] -> 0 } sum ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> 6 : [2 3] -> 5 :. [4 5 6] -> 15 : [5 6] -> 11 } sum ~ add; cdr; 0
18:57:33 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (sum) :(
18:57:35 <oklopol> they would be easy to add though
18:57:51 <j-invariant> oklopol: wow! I was hoping they would be some tremendously difficult addition
18:57:54 <Sgeo_> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=-lang.org#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&source=hp&q=lang.org&aq=f&aqi=g-s1g-c1g-ms2g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=ca05a7bb65e82229
18:57:57 <Sgeo_> There goes my life
18:58:26 <Sgeo_> I'm going to die from lack of food and sleep due to reading about programming languages for the rest of my short life. Bye all.
18:58:30 <oklopol> essentially you'd have to give an apply function to glue, and have syntax for functions in examples
18:58:38 <elliott> Sgeo_: ah so you won't talk about them?
18:58:49 <elliott> j-invariant: doesn't matter to sgeo
18:59:11 <j-invariant> Sgeo_: anyway are you going to structure this, like study a new one at the start of each fortnight?
18:59:16 <elliott> Sgeo_: lol http://www.thorn-lang.org/ is high on that list, which Gregor did something with :P
18:59:19 <elliott> at least i've seen it before
18:59:21 <elliott> and he's listed on the page
18:59:29 <Sgeo_> j-invariant, just keep reading
18:59:30 <elliott> to read them all and not eat or sleep and then die
18:59:49 <j-invariant> Sgeo_: well maybe you are just fundamentally different than me, but if I did that I would not really get much out of it
19:00:13 <oklopol> elliott: you don't have car
19:00:19 <Sgeo_> j-invariant, if by "get something out of it" you mean "be capable of writing a line of code in that language" than yes, well
19:00:23 <elliott> oklopol: you need pattern matching :P
19:00:27 <oklopol> car and cdr should be a single command
19:00:35 <elliott> oklopol: returning a list, good idea!
19:00:43 <elliott> :: sum ~ {. [] -> 0 } sum ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> 6 : [2 3] -> 5 :. [4 5 6] -> 15 : [5 6] -> 11 } sum ~ add; car; cdr; 0
19:00:43 <luatre> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for -: 'float' and '_socketobject' :(
19:00:50 <oklopol> not exactly what i meant, but why not
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19:01:13 <elliott> :: sum ~ {. [] -> 0 } sum ~ {:. [1 2 3] -> 6 : [2 3] -> 5 :. [4 5 6] -> 15 : [5 6] -> 11 } sum ~ add; car; cdr; 0
19:01:14 <luatre> Compiled in 0.0132999420166 seconds
19:01:14 <luatre> sum: (a) => [a] | [] => 0 | _ => add(@(cdr(a)) car(a))
19:01:28 <Gregor> elliott: þorn.org is the preferable address :P
19:01:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No :-P Not compared to Epigram 2!
19:01:43 <elliott> oklopol: why does the recursion become the first argument, that's kinda WEIRD
19:01:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BECAUSE IT'S NOT EPIGRAM 2
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19:03:01 <elliott> :: factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6 . 0 24 -> 24 } factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6 : 2 3 -> 6 :. 1 6 -> 6 : 0 6 -> 6 } factorial loop ~ multiply; pred
19:03:01 <luatre> Compiled in 0.00318908691406 seconds
19:03:01 <luatre> factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b))
19:03:36 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: Everything that went into epigram 1 is spelled out in Conors research papers: Read those instead.. and once you've donen that you can read the new ones about the theory of Epigram 2
19:03:42 <elliott> :. factorial loop(0 factorial loop(1 factorial loop(2 factorial loop(0 3))))
19:03:52 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: Once you've done all that.. maybe Epigram 2 will be useable!
19:03:53 <Sgeo_> Timber just caught my eye
19:03:54 <elliott> :. factorial loop(0 factorial loop(1 factorial loop(2 factorial loop(3 factorial loop(0 4)))))
19:04:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. Does MapReduce = map . reduce with optimisations?
19:04:18 <elliott> :. factorial loop(0 factorial loop(1 factorial loop(2 factorial loop(3 factorial loop(4 0)))))
19:04:34 <Sgeo_> Mobl.... sounds... intersting yet scary
19:04:40 <elliott> factorial loop(recurse this)
19:04:49 * Sgeo_ would NOT like to see Mobl take over the world
19:05:39 <Sgeo_> http://www.mobl-lang.org/
19:05:45 <elliott> :. factorial loop(factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2) 3)
19:05:51 <elliott> :. factorial loop(factorial loop(factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2) 3) 4)
19:06:03 <elliott> :. factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2)
19:06:26 <elliott> :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ { [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 5 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr
19:06:26 <luatre> Compiled in 0.00108098983765 seconds
19:06:26 <luatre> what: (a) => [a] | _ => 0
19:06:47 <elliott> :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 5 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr
19:06:47 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :(
19:06:48 <Phantom_Hoover> How many times will people reinvent the same language?
19:06:52 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:06:58 -!- luatre has joined.
19:07:01 <elliott> :: factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6 . 0 24 -> 24 } factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6 : 2 3 -> 6 :. 1 6 -> 6 : 0 6 -> 6 } factorial loop ~ multiply; pred
19:07:01 <luatre> Compiled in 0.00199413299561 seconds
19:07:01 <luatre> factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b))
19:07:05 <elliott> :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 5 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr
19:07:05 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :(
19:07:27 <elliott> :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3 4] -> 2880 : [0 1 2 3] -> 6 :. [0 1 2 3] -> 6 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr
19:07:27 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :(
19:07:38 <elliott> :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2 3] -> 6 : [0 1 2] -> 2 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr
19:07:38 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in __instancecheck__ :(
19:08:35 <elliott> :. factorial loop(factorial loop(0 1) 2)
19:08:53 <elliott> :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2] -> 2 : [0 1] -> 1 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr
19:08:54 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :(
19:08:59 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:09:07 <elliott> :: factorial loop ~ {. 0 6 -> 6 . 0 24 -> 24 } factorial loop ~ {:. 3 1 -> 6 : 2 3 -> 6 :. 1 6 -> 6 : 0 6 -> 6 } factorial loop ~ multiply; pred
19:09:08 <luatre> Compiled in 0.00293016433716 seconds
19:09:08 <luatre> factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b))
19:09:19 <elliott> :: what ~ {. [] -> 0 } what ~ {:. [0 1 2] -> 2 : [0 1] -> 1 } what ~ factorial loop; 0; car; cdr
19:09:20 <luatre> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded while calling a Python object :(
19:10:02 <Sgeo_> "Like many programmers with a pulse, I am compelled to create my own programming language."
19:10:06 <Sgeo_> http://jolt-lang.org/
19:10:08 <oklopol> do you want me to tell you what's wrong?
19:10:17 <elliott> oklopol: it stack overflows for no apparent reason
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19:11:56 <oklopol> i don't see anything wrong
19:12:43 <oklopol> so what gave an error exactly?
19:13:17 <oklopol> the examples for what make no sense, so there's really no telling what the code will do
19:13:40 <oklopol> except you get a runtime error during compilation
19:13:54 <oklopol> factorial loop is called with parameters what make it infloop
19:14:01 <oklopol> and you don't catch exceptions anymore
19:14:14 <oklopol> (incidentally, this is why i caught theem)
19:14:33 <elliott> oklopol: i'll catch stack overflow exceptions then?
19:15:01 <Sgeo_> "Mersenne Twister based pseudorandom number generator." is not a language feature.
19:15:07 <Sgeo_> In conclusion, fuck you.
19:15:12 <Sgeo_> http://www.pika-lang.org/features/
19:16:20 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Technically that depends :P
19:16:39 <Gregor> Sgeo_: If it has a random-based object system ... :P
19:17:22 <Gregor> j-invariant: Language features are features of the LANGUAGE, not libraries provided.
19:17:37 <Sgeo_> Well, the features page doesn't say _language_ features
19:17:46 <Sgeo_> It also doesn't list every single library
19:17:50 <j-invariant> the different between language and library is fuzzy
19:18:00 <Gregor> Well, in that case, j-invariant: That's an extremely boring feature :P
19:18:41 <Sgeo_> We have a library that lets you retrieve content via HTTP!
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19:19:25 <Gregor> Why you should use my language: Ships with binding to libcurl.
19:19:27 <Sgeo_> The rest of Pika is boring
19:19:39 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Everything except for the random number generator? ;)
19:20:35 <Sgeo_> Well, it's in contrast to those languages who ship with stdlibs who use the xkcd RNG
19:21:38 <Sgeo_> It's. A. Language. For. Code. That. Runs. On. salesforce.com.
19:21:59 <Sgeo_> Enterprise Language 101
19:22:06 <elliott> you know, every time you talk to us about languages
19:22:10 <elliott> it's time you could spend googling more
19:22:14 <Sgeo_> elliott, you don't mean http://wiki.developerforce.com/index.php/Apex_Code:_The_World's_First_On-Demand_Programming_Language do you?
19:22:18 <Sgeo_> That's what Google came up with
19:22:53 <elliott> i mean Apex, the expressive, functional imperative language from Cat's Eye Technologies
19:23:22 <Gregor> 'Like all aspects of salesforce.com’s application and platform technologies, Apex Code is “on demand,” running entirely on Force.com without requiring any local servers or software' <-- this ... is what they mean? LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL
19:24:55 <Sgeo_> Yeah, it's the first language that HAS to be run on the cloud
19:26:22 <Sgeo_> elliott, I can't find Apex on cpressey's site
19:26:36 <elliott> it's too secret. or too vapourware.
19:26:45 <elliott> also mostly formulated by me.
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19:32:11 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: how come you are interested in it anyway?
19:32:33 <pikhq> Gregor: APPLIED PHLEBOTINUM IS BETTER THAN LOGIC
19:32:38 <j-invariant> The consensus is: " Let’s briefly look at some non-solutions to the software problem. First, we can’t just prove everything to be correct. This is way too expensive and most real systems lack formal specifications."
19:32:46 <j-invariant> " At present, it is not even clear that the correct behavior of large systems can be formalized at all, though hopefully this will be possible someday (exercise for the reader: formalize Asimov’s Three Laws in HOL, Coq, or a similar language)."
19:32:53 <elliott> why is this broken, what manner of witchery is this
19:33:29 <elliott> WHAT MANNER OF WITCHERY IS THIS!!!!!!
19:33:37 <j-invariant> elliott: it is exceptional to find people that seriously think proofs are sensible
19:33:43 <elliott> wtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtwfwtwffwtwftwfwwffwtwfwtfffffff
19:34:00 <elliott> j-invariant: you can find them interesting without finding them useful :) i.e. computer-based systems
19:34:02 <pikhq> j-invariant: Clearly math education should be mandatory.
19:34:17 <elliott> i'm not entirely sure that Coq/Epigram/etc. are useful for proving theorems. for writing verified software, of course.
19:34:22 <elliott> but regardless, they are interesting.
19:34:42 <elliott> i like how tk eats up all exceptoins
19:35:10 <elliott> oh dear, that is a problem
19:36:34 <elliott> oklopol: can you give your executive opinion on a part of cled
19:36:59 <elliott> hmm it's kinda broken when you tab away... todo, fix
19:37:41 <pikhq> j-invariant: That's no more math education than the alphabet is literature education.
19:39:07 <pikhq> Quite likely. Is it possible without a mathematician becoming supreme ruler of the Department of Education (or your local national equivalent)? Probably not.
19:39:36 <pikhq> Because almost everyone is convinced that we already teach math, and quite well...
19:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Were you homeschooled for your entire life until you moved out into a cave in the wilderness?
19:42:44 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: anyway I am curious how&why did you get interesetd in epigram
19:44:28 <coppro> combinatorics is interesting
19:45:36 <pikhq> Man. I just now realised that IPv4 depletion is literally happening *this month*...
19:46:14 <pikhq> Well. It *could* happen early February.
19:47:15 <pikhq> I'd suggest not being in the stock market, though.
19:47:26 <pikhq> Or strategically selling short.
19:47:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But P(civilisation collapses | the stock market fluctuates) is rather high, no?
19:48:26 <elliott> it won't have that big a deal
19:48:29 <elliott> NATs are not very hard to set up really
19:48:37 <elliott> and remember that most hosting companies and the like
19:48:42 <elliott> already have way more IPs than they use
19:48:51 <pikhq> elliott: Telecoms are boned.
19:48:55 <elliott> so it's not like people are gonna see "lol no you can't have a server we have no ip to give it"
19:49:03 <elliott> everyone already has IPs to spare
19:49:05 <elliott> so it won't be a _huge_ deal
19:49:29 <pikhq> Except that adoption of IPv6 will be really expensive at this point, and it will be mandatory pretty soon.
19:49:50 <pikhq> Mostly for the telecoms.
19:55:44 <pikhq> After depletion, RIPE and AfriNIC will only allocate IPv4 to entities with IPv6 allocations.
20:10:10 <j-invariant> was there something derisive about measuring code in KLOCs?
20:22:00 <j-invariant> elliott: http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7740?context=3
20:23:04 <elliott> j-invariant: i think they're right though ... _for now_
20:23:27 <elliott> j-invariant: I have a feeling that with the progress, probably a... loss of precision will be had
20:23:43 <elliott> j-invariant: i.e., it turns out that if you prove a kernel, like, "only 80%" correct, it takes only 30% of the work
20:24:01 <elliott> "After depending typing, the only type of bugs left are those that are not provable, like if prime numbers ever end and such." lol wat
20:24:21 <j-invariant> elliott: well generally you would only prove the very very awkward difficult parts: So 80% correct would be 99% as hard
20:24:41 <elliott> j-invariant: Perhaps! ...but then perhaps not, you see people writing unit tests for every damn thing
20:24:54 <elliott> j-invariant: Anyway, consider, the very very awkward difficult parts tend to consist of multiple subproblems
20:25:02 <elliott> j-invariant: so if you prove most of those but not all
20:25:08 <elliott> j-invariant: or if you prove that all of them apply in, like, 80% of cases
20:25:35 <elliott> j-invariant: like, I can imagine some proof system that lets you state some property on, like, floats, and as long as it can experimentally verify it for a few thousand random values, and also pathological ones like denormalised numbers
20:25:39 <elliott> then it lets it be accepted as a theorem
20:25:47 <elliott> but for proving software, potentially very useful
20:27:49 <elliott> j-invariant: I mean, say you have a big, formal proof
20:27:54 <elliott> j-invariant: that relies on some twiddly property of floating point numbers
20:28:03 <elliott> j-invariant: if you can prove that, using that theorem
20:28:14 <elliott> and then have that hypothesis about floating points "experimentally" demonstrated
20:28:28 <elliott> that's a whole lot better than just testing the component
20:33:04 <elliott> j-invariant: lol ololol ololo olol ololololo lololoo
20:33:06 <elliott> j-invariant: "Does computer science completely miss the point of a computer -- namely, that it is a creative tool?"
20:33:19 <elliott> One could argue that computer science is like a "pen science" where scientists find ways to write as quickly as possible with a pen and to fill up a page with as much text as possible.
20:33:19 <elliott> That would of course completely miss the point of a pen.
20:33:19 <elliott> One could say something similar about computer science with its focus on time and space efficiency of computations.
20:33:21 <elliott> The computer -- like a pen -- is a creative tool and the focus should be on the invention of new kinds of software applications -- not on making existing ones more efficient.
20:33:22 <elliott> Universities should have a creative field of study -- distinct from computer science -- for novel uses of computers.
20:34:02 <elliott> how did that get on /r/compsci
20:34:26 <elliott> j-invariant: i like how they think computer science is just about like
20:35:02 <elliott> reddit.com/r/subredditname
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20:39:21 <elliott> oklopol you'll love this program
20:44:49 * Sgeo_ accidentally mentally dropped the why
20:45:09 <elliott> j-invariant: it's on the front page
20:45:37 <elliott> so you're not looking quite hard enough :D
20:45:41 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez4op/does_computer_science_completely_miss_the_point/
20:46:24 <j-invariant> what thehell? that's not on my front page at all
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20:47:37 <j-invariant> elliott: looks like the poster actually agrees with that stuff http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez4op/does_computer_science_completely_miss_the_point/c1c2upo
20:47:43 <elliott> j-invariant: i have a feeling the poster asked the question
20:47:45 <j-invariant> elliott: P.S. did you not notice this is voted zero :|
20:47:47 <quintopia> i just realized i haven't used ftp in so long that i don't have a proper ftp client installed. any recommendations?
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20:48:39 <quintopia> yeah, but it requires me to remember the command names. i want drag and drop for instant gratification
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20:54:33 <elliott> IRONY: http://i.imgur.com/DkbPs.png
20:54:51 <elliott> (after someone got into his account in the thread an xss was discovered in stackoverflow)
20:56:24 <Sgeo_> It's ok, he never uses StackOverflow anyway
20:59:33 <elliott> i wish i could delete jeff atwood's face
21:00:36 <elliott> j-invariant: have you written any clue programs yet?
21:00:51 <j-invariant> no I am waiting for the wiki page: please write it!
21:01:21 <elliott> j-invariant: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28oklopol%29
21:01:30 <elliott> j-invariant: it is not very complete... e.g. bags can also contain objects
21:02:18 <elliott> j-invariant: uh, "good luck"
21:02:27 <elliott> j-invariant: clue.py is 717 lines
21:02:55 <j-invariant> obviously the problem is that you're using python
21:03:17 <elliott> j-invariant: writing clue programs is great fun though, you struggle through and go wtf, but the moment the compiler spits out the right function
21:03:22 <elliott> it feels like it was so easy
21:03:25 <elliott> and your code is so simple
21:04:26 <elliott> ::: http://pb.vjn.fi/p9634238413.txt
21:04:27 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
21:04:27 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (:..: factorial stack-hogging factorial) :(
21:04:38 <elliott> comments don't actually work
21:05:12 <elliott> j-invariant: difficultly...
21:05:19 <elliott> j-invariant: it's basically advanced brute force :)
21:05:23 <j-invariant> it's not just breath first generate all programs?
21:05:39 <elliott> there's a reason there's more than one {} branch in each function
21:05:47 <elliott> i.e., there's a reason you do that
21:05:49 <elliott> there's a reason the bag exists
21:05:53 <elliott> and there's a reason :. : exist to denote recursion
21:06:52 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah there is basically no way you could do recursive functions (only flow control other than branching really) with a stupid search like that
21:06:58 <elliott> the search is stupid, not the idea, that is
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21:08:02 <elliott> ::: http://pb.vjn.fi/p9634238413.txt
21:08:03 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
21:08:03 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (:..: factorial stack-hogging factorial) :(
21:08:14 -!- luatre has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:08:19 -!- luatre has joined.
21:08:21 <elliott> ::: http://pb.vjn.fi/p9634238413.txt
21:08:22 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
21:08:22 <luatre> DepthLimitException: depth limit exceeded (:..: factorial stack-hogging factorial) :(
21:08:26 <elliott> don't use it i'm busy fixing it :>
21:10:52 <elliott> how many ways can you represent 6, if . is +1 and : is +2
21:10:59 <elliott> and those are the only symbols you can use
21:12:04 <luatre> ValueError: unknown url type: is 6 :(
21:12:33 <luatre> URLError: <urlopen error unknown url type: .> :(
21:12:50 <j-invariant> ::.. <-- can't be bothered drawing all these but there are 4!/2!2! of them
21:12:51 <luatre> ValueError: unknown url type: <-- can't be bothered drawing all these but there are 4!/2!2! of them :(
21:13:01 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
21:13:02 <luatre> Compiled in 3.00407409668e-05 seconds
21:13:27 <elliott> Elliott-Hirds-MacBook-Air:~ ehird$ curl http://lemonparty.com
21:13:28 <elliott> <script>top.window.location.href="http://www.livejasmin.com/listpage.php?psid=loupizz&pstour=t10&psprogram=REVS";</script>
21:13:32 <elliott> hardly surprising it was fast then
21:14:21 <elliott> j-invariant: ok, i'm not gonna write out all 2906 then :D
21:15:19 <coppro> 4!/2!2! is obviouly 24
21:15:33 <coppro> and 5!/1!4! is obviously 24*120
21:19:05 <j-invariant> it makes no sense to use abcd/efgh as abcdfgh/e
21:19:33 <elliott> same reason you see \frac{1}{x} ... in equations
21:19:36 <j-invariant> yes but in that case you can use (abcd/e)fgh
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21:21:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> same reason you see \frac{1}{x} ... in equations ← as opposed to...?
21:23:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: \frac{...}{x}
21:23:29 <j-invariant> elliott: words letters = map (flip replicateM letters) [1..]
21:24:14 <elliott> j-invariant: was that...responding to my #haskell question in here?
21:24:43 <Phantom_Hoover> @pl words letters = map (flip replicateM letters) [1..]
21:24:43 <lambdabot> words = flip map [1..] . flip replicateM
21:25:07 <elliott> j-invariant: that produces a list of lists, you mean concatMap surely
21:25:24 <fizzie> Re the "how many times", it's actually fib times: http://oeis.org/A000045 "F(n)=number of compositions of n-1 with no part greater than 2. Example: F(4)=3 because we have 3 = 1+1+1=1+2=2+1."
21:25:52 <j-invariant> elliott: oh flip replicateM letters =<< [1..] then
21:26:22 <elliott> Prelude Control.Monad> takeWhile (\x -> s x < 7) (words ":.")
21:26:22 <elliott> [":",".","::",":.",".:","..",":::","::.",":.:",":..",".::",".:.","..:","..."]
21:26:28 <elliott> Prelude Control.Monad> let s('.':xs)=1+s xs;s(':':xs)=2+s xs;s []=0
21:27:48 <elliott> j-invariant: is it just not ordered like that?
21:28:09 <elliott> j-invariant: yay i got all 13
21:28:10 <elliott> [":::","::..",":.:.",":..:",".::.",".:.:","..::",":....",".:...","..:..","...:.","....:","......"]
21:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Re the "how many times", it's actually fib times: http://oeis.org/A000045 "F(n)=number of compositions of n-1 with no part greater than 2. Example: F(4)=3 because we have 3 = 1+1+1=1+2=2+1." ← COINCIDENCE?
21:29:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: And of course it's fib, since for all the F(n) ways to write n, there are F(n-1) those that start with '.' and F(n-2) those that start with ':'.
21:29:52 <fizzie> Admittedly the example is a bit silly.
21:30:03 <elliott> fizzie: how many times what
21:30:17 <elliott> oh how many ways to write?
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21:30:20 <fizzie> elliott: Should've been that, yes.
21:30:23 -!- luatre has joined.
21:30:32 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9634238413.txt
21:30:33 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
21:30:33 <luatre> Compiled in 0.000127077102661 seconds
21:30:38 <elliott> ...that's definitely not right
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21:31:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's with that x- suffix.
21:31:48 <elliott> 21:28 EvanR-work: set of finite strings from a countable alphabet is countable?
21:31:48 <elliott> 21:28 Cale: EvanR-work: yes
21:31:48 <elliott> 21:28 EvanR-work: interesting
21:31:53 <elliott> j-invariant: WHAT A REVELATION
21:32:19 <elliott> well that's continued fractions :)
21:32:21 <j-invariant> elliott: which is not at all what he /said/ :P
21:32:38 <j-invariant> elliott: everyone in #haskell is going "oh I misread it"
21:32:46 <elliott> 21:29 cdsmithus: EvanR-work: It's pretty easy to see. Just enumerate all the 0-length strings (finitely many), then all the 1-length, then the 2-length, and so on. Every finite string has some length, and will be reached eventually
21:32:49 <elliott> finitely many 0-length strings
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21:36:10 <elliott> ::: did i break this ~ {. 0 -> 1} did i break this ~ 1
21:36:11 <luatre> ValueError: unknown url type: did i break this ~ {. 0 -> 1} did i break this ~ 1 :(
21:36:14 <elliott> :: did i break this ~ {. 0 -> 1} did i break this ~ 1
21:36:14 <luatre> Compiled in 0.00750088691711 seconds
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21:37:34 <elliott> ::: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9634238413.txt
21:37:34 <luatre> Compiling, just a minute...
21:37:35 <luatre> Compiled in 0.080559015274 seconds
21:37:35 <luatre> factorial: (a) => [a] | _ => factorial loop(a 1)
21:37:35 <luatre> stack-hogging factorial: (a) => [a] | 0 => multiply(pred(0) pred(0)) | _ => multiply(a @(pred(a)))
21:37:35 <luatre> factorial loop: (a, b) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) multiply(a b))
21:37:35 <luatre> fibonacci: (a) => [a] | _ => fast fibonacci loop(a 0 1)
21:37:36 <luatre> fast fibonacci loop: (a, b, c) => [a] | 0 => b | _ => @(pred(a) c add(b c))
21:37:36 <luatre> slow fibonacci: (a) => [a] | 0 => 0 | 1 => 1 | _ => add(@(pred(a)) @(pred(pred(a))))
21:38:57 <elliott> j-invariant: so my program's structure is quite flawed, what about you
21:39:01 <elliott> any flawed programs lately?
21:42:15 <j-invariant> everything I have written in the past ... forever
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21:43:18 <elliott> j-invariant: have you ever written GUI PROGRAMS
21:43:34 <elliott> j-invariant: haha what did you write
21:43:40 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
21:44:58 <elliott> it's the best gui program ever in fact
21:45:20 <elliott> j-invariant: how didn't it look ok? :p
21:46:31 <elliott> j-invariant: that doesn't look bad
21:46:50 <elliott> I'd add a bit more spacing after the rendered equation, and possibly make that whole upper pane white-backgrounded if i could
21:46:56 <elliott> j-invariant: what did you write it with?
21:47:07 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezre7/did_notch_give_details_why_they_switched_from_git/
21:47:09 <elliott> j-invariant: anyway it's not as ugly as cled http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png :D
21:47:21 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "From my own experience with both I find Subversion to be easier to understand." lol
21:47:29 <elliott> j-invariant: really? it's hideous :D
21:47:41 <j-invariant> elliott: I want to make a GUI for interactive program derivation
21:47:46 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's centralised. Its aim is to be "CVS done right" which is impossible. So yes.
21:47:50 <elliott> j-invariant: that would be amazing
21:48:12 <j-invariant> like that paste I showed you: except you do it all in place
21:48:25 <j-invariant> hey that would be really cute I should actually make it
21:48:38 <elliott> j-invariant: btw cled isn't really meant to look like that... ideally instead of those awful borders, it'd have like, those outwards poking ones... so that it looks like things deeper in the tree stick out further, you know?
21:48:46 <elliott> j-invariant: and then what would happen is, descent would be shown by element background
21:49:56 <elliott> j-invariant: it'd be a lot nicer because right now borders kinda drown out everything
21:50:40 <j-invariant> Phantom__Hoover: here is a derivation of init in terms of foldr http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VBavHxpt
21:50:58 <j-invariant> hm actually there is no nice way to make a GUI for this
21:51:20 <elliott> j-invariant: btw, isn't your cons just (:) there...
21:51:53 <elliott> the cons name is kinda confusing though :p
21:52:40 <j-invariant> elliott: I don't think there is a good way to make a GUI for program derivation
21:52:57 <j-invariant> there are too many different ways to structure things
21:53:07 <Phantom__Hoover> What else is on voxelperfect.net other than esolang stuff?
21:54:37 <j-invariant> Phantom__Hoover: oh you should learn about foldr
21:55:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Well, I *know* what foldr is, but I thought it had a function involved...
21:55:09 <elliott> saying why it's wrong >> telling to run :)
21:55:19 <elliott> copumpkin: cons is defined in the where clause
21:55:35 <elliott> init = foldr cons [] where
21:55:35 <elliott> cons x (y:ys) = x : y : ys
21:56:08 <copumpkin> I wrote @let cons x [] = []; cons x (y:ys) = x : y : ys
21:58:52 <copumpkin> > let cons x [] = [x]; cons x (y:ys) = x : y : ys in foldr cons [] [1..10]
21:59:21 <elliott> j-invariant: you should write a clue program ... with cled!
21:59:32 <elliott> copumpkin: that's not the intention, though
21:59:47 <copumpkin> elliott: I know! I'm just saying, it shows where it's going wrong
21:59:54 <elliott> j-invariant: I have no idea how http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png could be used to debug anything
22:00:03 <elliott> j-invariant: it's actually an editor
22:00:18 <elliott> j-invariant: what you see in that screenshot is the clue branch
22:00:43 <elliott> you can descend and ascend through that tree, basically, move about, and edit individual atoms
22:00:49 <elliott> plus add/remove to the lists, etc.
22:00:55 <elliott> the lists in a display sense, not in clue-code-sense
22:01:47 <elliott> hmm i shouldn't link to such scary screenshots when #haskellers are around
22:01:54 <elliott> i have a feeling they have some modicum of taste
22:02:00 <elliott> copumpkin: can you confirm/deny?
22:02:21 <elliott> that #haskellers have some modicum of taste
22:02:32 <elliott> and thus linking to things like http://i.imgur.com/M27fK.png when they're around is likely to scare them off
22:02:56 <copumpkin> but keep in mind that I have no taste
22:03:05 <copumpkin> so my idea of worse may actually be better
22:03:11 <elliott> i should implement that background-based system, like now
22:03:17 <elliott> and it'd stop scaring off helpless children
22:04:57 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7ks6
22:05:30 <j-invariant> when will people learn this is just not relevant?
22:06:47 <elliott> godel is often relevant! but usually not in the cases when people think it is
22:08:00 <Gregor> "GODELGODELGODEL" is the sound of a mathematician turkey.
22:12:30 <oerjan> the incompleteness from outer space
22:15:08 <elliott> that is... not nice... actually it's koay
22:17:18 <elliott> http://twitter.com/notch/status/24558373093515264 Reeds are now sugar canes. I am not even kidding.
22:17:18 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Sugar_Cane
22:17:31 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal: Gawp at the ...ness.
22:19:19 <j-invariant> I found some reeds but I could not find them again :(
22:20:24 <elliott> j-invariant: have you joined the server yet :p
22:21:35 <elliott> j-invariant: I can't tell you, that would be wrong; you'll have to look at a four days old log or something where we discuss mcmap!
22:21:46 <elliott> That is a guess of course. Naturally.
22:21:56 <j-invariant> I dno't want to join if I'm not supposed to
22:22:16 <elliott> get oklopol to tell you, he has oklopolic immunity
22:23:55 <fizzie> Our administratafator has been a bit gone for the evening; my guess is some sort of debauchery.
22:24:39 <elliott> fizzie: You're the right-hand man, go tell j-invariant the address.
22:25:31 <oerjan> elliott: and from those sugar canes you will be able to produce high-fructose corn syrup >:)
22:25:38 <fizzie> Oh, but I couldn't possibly, that'd be insubordination.
22:26:00 <Phantom__Hoover> <fizzie> Our administratafator has been a bit gone for the evening; my guess is some sort of debauchery. ← MATLAB debauchery?
22:26:21 <elliott> fizzie: So is there a scenester named SUGAR CANE who isn't in your pants either?
22:26:39 <oerjan> also whiskey and creme brulee
22:26:39 <elliott> Or just leave it as a protest :P
22:26:50 <fizzie> Well, maybe I'll just be all RETRO-reed.
22:26:52 <elliott> Oh man, whiskey in Minecraft would be amazing.
22:27:05 <fizzie> "I was into reeds before they were sugar canes."
22:27:10 <elliott> It'll, like, restore 70% of your health, but if you drink too much your vision starts going blurry and stuff.
22:27:17 <oerjan> fizzie: you had reeds on vinyl?
22:27:37 <elliott> i had reeds before they sold out
22:27:48 <fizzie> "Reeds on Vinyl", sounds like a band.
22:28:14 <oerjan> "Sounds like a band" sounds like a band.
22:28:20 <elliott> fizzie: with the amount of things the internet has called good band names, we'd need like 1,000 times more bands than have ever existed to be created.
22:28:58 <Gregor> "'Sounds like a band' sounds like a band" sounds like a band
22:29:33 <elliott> My band will be called #1#="\"#1#\" sounds like a band".
22:29:50 <elliott> First album will naturally be called Main Page.
22:33:39 * oerjan recalls there was a norwegian race horse named "Sugar Cane Hannover"
22:34:21 <elliott> the people who name horses are like people who name cats fun things, except on crack
22:34:31 <elliott> like, you start naming cats silly things
22:34:34 <elliott> but then when you get a job
22:34:53 <oerjan> famous enough to have a no.wikipedia page
22:34:57 <elliott> what is it with horse names, anyway?
22:35:11 <oerjan> born in sweden actually
22:35:52 <Gregor> "Followed by the horse formerly known as Horse."
22:36:15 <Sgeo_> I found that more hilarious than it was
22:36:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:36:25 <elliott> if horse racing actually involved like
22:36:39 <elliott> But oh! Here comes My Other Car Is A Cdr!
22:37:16 * Sgeo_ hits elliott with an element and a list
22:37:42 <elliott> Name a horse after the Unicode snowman.
22:37:58 <Sgeo_> elliott, you think I'm capable of thinking of some stupid not-that-funny thing to say about car and cdr?
22:38:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's... Joss Whedon-y, isn't it? Said as someone who hasn't seen it.
22:38:23 <FireFly> From the little I've seen, yes
22:38:25 <FireFly> assuming you mean the show
22:38:28 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I get the feeling there's more western there than scifi.
22:38:32 <elliott> "Space western", as they say.
22:38:34 <Sgeo_> I know people like Firefly
22:38:46 <elliott> Gregor: Name a horse the GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA.
22:38:49 <elliott> Gregor: Pronounced like that.
22:38:51 <Sgeo_> And that it was cancelled
22:39:03 <elliott> I THINK THEY MADE A MOVIE OUT OF IT
22:39:19 <elliott> randall munroe likes it, which is always a bad sign
22:39:41 <Sgeo_> elliott, Randall Munroe likes breathing.
22:39:52 <elliott> Sgeo_: Breathing is kind of a pain.
22:40:01 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Sure, but he also liked Python.
22:40:12 <oerjan> elliott: not breathing even more so
22:40:32 * Sgeo_ cries as his lingua fraca gets spit upon
22:40:51 <elliott> Python is a terrible language.
22:41:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Funny. I don't want them to.
22:41:39 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, I'm going to change MY name to GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA
22:41:43 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, yes, but it filled a gap in the market, so it was inevitable.
22:42:03 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, but ... intelligent people who like Python are odd.
22:42:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: And they, strangely, exist.
22:42:30 <elliott> oklopol likes Python for, like, totally different reasons to everyone else.
22:43:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Well, not "clean code and comprehensive standard libraries" :-)
22:43:37 <Sgeo_> elliott, do you think I'm an idiot?
22:43:39 <elliott> oerjan: don't be harsh, english isn't Sgeo_'s lingua fraca
22:43:50 <elliott> Sgeo_: Not really, but I have the feeling you like Python for the wrong reasons.
22:43:53 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: WHO KNOWS
22:44:06 <oerjan> elliott: hey i wasn't intending to start a fracas
22:45:27 <Sgeo_> There's a language called HaXe
22:45:45 <Sgeo_> As far as I can tell, the only reason people like it is its "portability"
22:45:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:46:30 <elliott> I need to start drinking more coffee.
22:47:38 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:48:44 <Sgeo_> Fancy's supposed to be able to target a bunch of stuff eventually
22:48:52 <elliott> hey j-invariant design my program
22:49:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:49:19 <Sgeo_> Now that I look at http://www.fancy-lang.org/features/ again, it looks boring
22:49:33 <Sgeo_> Except for the BDD thingy, which puts Scala's thing in mind
22:50:12 <elliott> example-driven development is the only acceptable policy.
22:50:45 * Sgeo_ still wants to know if it's TC
22:50:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:20 <oerjan> elliott: ideally the language _specification_ should be example-driven, no?
22:51:41 <Sgeo_> Huh. That's awesome.
22:51:45 <elliott> oerjan: oh yes definitely, but unfortunately there's no other example-driven processors
22:51:55 <elliott> Sgeo_: you can basically write simple imperative loops that use each other
22:52:01 <elliott> and there's also an ski interpreter
22:52:11 <elliott> most people would consider SKI enough
22:52:17 <elliott> but, you might not consider that so if, e.g.,
22:52:20 <oerjan> elliott: i guess it's hard when you don't have any examples
22:52:21 <elliott> you can't express every turing machine as a unique program
22:52:38 <elliott> you can basically write code imperatively
22:56:26 <Sgeo_> I know of it. And that Python comes with libraries for it
22:56:44 <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task.
22:58:42 <elliott> j-invariant: oh god, he is
22:59:05 <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something
22:59:34 <elliott> j-invariant: except for the ones who are telling him UML can work ... lol
23:00:16 <Sgeo_> WTF does UML have to do with Haskell?
23:00:28 <Sgeo_> Is UML some sort of imperative thingy? I thought it was flowchartiness
23:00:34 <Sgeo_> Which I guess is imperative
23:02:30 <j-invariant> elliott: http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7sdo
23:03:15 <j-invariant> elliott: stupid guy, first comes out with this irrelevant halting problem crap then starts being all arrogant
23:04:54 <j-invariant> yeah cool you just learned something new and interesting, NOT EVERYTHING IS A NAIL
23:05:26 <j-invariant> Why don't we get people that just learned thermodynamics and join every fucking energy discussion with "YYEAH BUT YOU CANT CREATE INFINITE FREE ENERGY SO WHY BOTHER WITH WINDMILLS?"
23:05:39 <elliott> `addquote <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. <j-invariant> HAHA [...] <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something
23:06:06 <elliott> j-invariant: because you don't have Thermo Engineering
23:06:08 <elliott> j-invariant: or Thermo Monkeys
23:06:52 <HackEgo> 264) <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. <j-invariant> HAHA [...] <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something
23:08:01 <copumpkin> I love the guy responding to me with a condescending tone
23:08:21 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7s0t
23:08:46 <elliott> copumpkin: i'm glad to see you've found the secret purpose of #esoteric, other than #minecraft
23:08:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:08:51 <elliott> which is #behind-people's-backs
23:09:00 <oerjan> copumpkin: you're godofpumpkins i guess?
23:09:06 <j-invariant> That just means we can't exactly decide when something halts or not <---- nobody cares
23:10:02 <elliott> copumpkin: oerjan is FAMOUS, he basically wrote half of the haskell 98 report*
23:10:06 <elliott> *complete and utter hogwash
23:10:07 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7ks6
23:10:14 <j-invariant> it upsets me that this comment has score 2
23:10:16 <elliott> oerjan: point copumpkin to that typo you fixed or whatever!!
23:10:32 <copumpkin> j-invariant: keep saying that in here and I'm sure it will be :)
23:10:46 * copumpkin posts to twitter that it should be -30
23:10:48 <elliott> now to go make stupid comments
23:10:56 <copumpkin> (I have a lot of dumb followers who do my bidding)
23:10:57 <j-invariant> well only actually downvote it if you agree with me: That his comment is totally irrelevant
23:11:04 <oerjan> elliott: there were several and i don't have them memorized
23:11:08 <elliott> j-invariant: MORONS DON'T UNDERSTAND QUALIFIERS
23:11:33 <oerjan> dammit now my z key is acting up
23:11:35 <j-invariant> I think tachi-kaze has probably smoked a load of dope
23:11:42 <elliott> holy shit comex has a lot of twitter followers now
23:11:43 <j-invariant> nothing he says has anny connection to reality
23:11:47 <elliott> i remember when he had like
23:11:57 <elliott> damn dude, getting all famous and hsit
23:11:58 <comex> whoa, copumpkin is in this channel
23:12:13 <elliott> j-invariant: this Agora player!
23:12:19 <copumpkin> no, actually I saw people mention it in #haskell(-blah?)
23:12:20 <elliott> that's what he's known for
23:12:41 <elliott> but my statement will be correct again soon enough
23:12:45 <elliott> comex: I'm gonna go around tleling people
23:12:48 <elliott> I knew comex before he was famous
23:12:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:13:01 <comex> but you never knew me before I was an Agora player
23:13:02 <elliott> j-invariant: he did the new jailbreakme.com iPhone crack
23:13:07 <comex> your statements contradict ;)
23:13:15 <comex> also that's not very new anymore
23:13:22 <elliott> but it's what propelled you to INTERWEBS INFAMY
23:13:29 <elliott> comex: i say new because, i remember using the old jailbreakme
23:13:32 <elliott> on the day i bought my iphone
23:13:35 <oerjan> <copumpkin> (I have a lot of dumb followers who do my bidding) <-- you do know that voting conspiracies are a bannable offense on reddit, right?
23:13:40 <copumpkin> elliott: I helped make that one :P
23:13:46 <elliott> oerjan: he can just say "omg this is so stupid"
23:13:51 <comex> but they're not in Agora
23:13:55 <copumpkin> oerjan: well luckily I don't do such conspiracies
23:13:57 <elliott> copumpkin: naw, Haskell can't do anything practical like that
23:14:06 <copumpkin> elliott: lol, that was pre-haskell :P
23:14:13 <copumpkin> then I saw the light and lost interest in iphonez
23:14:40 <copumpkin> not as superstarish as comex, sadly
23:14:54 <comex> let's play ircnomic
23:15:11 <elliott> comex: heh, #ircnomic still redirects to ##nomic
23:15:21 <elliott> grumble wooble grumble grumble cough
23:16:31 <elliott> gah, how can i remove the redirect...
23:16:46 <Sgeo_> I thought comex was famous for iPhone-related reasons before jailbreakme
23:16:47 -!- elliott has changed nick to ehird.
23:18:24 <ehird> HOW DO YOU REMOVE A CHANNEL REDIRECT
23:18:27 <ehird> the forces of wooble are acting against me
23:20:42 <j-invariant> ehird: this fucking qfr is just an idiot trill
23:20:48 <ehird> comex: #ircnomic now open for business
23:20:54 <ehird> don't crowd around now
23:21:43 <Sgeo_> j-invariant, I thought it was centuries before we learned the Trills' secrets
23:22:04 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:22:31 <ehird> comex: do you have a copy of the last ircnomic ruleset :D
23:23:06 <ehird> comex: well... get one?
23:23:29 <ehird> copumpkin: so have you started playing minecraft yet >:D
23:23:33 <j-invariant> I just want to progrma something really simple what is the issuse
23:23:37 <ehird> j-invariant: program what
23:23:48 <j-invariant> ehird: just some really simple algorithms on polynomials
23:23:54 <ehird> j-invariant: do it then :D
23:24:07 <j-invariant> I tried scheme, haskell and Coq they all fail
23:24:09 <ehird> j-invariant: haskell? istr you did some stuff with it
23:24:13 <ehird> and polynomialalalallal
23:24:19 <ehird> copumpkin: agda is not a language for human consumption
23:24:26 <ehird> copumpkin: it's only a matter of time before you're yelling expletives at Notch every day, btw
23:24:27 <copumpkin> I consume and produce it all the time
23:24:35 <ehird> copumpkin: you're a pumpkin
23:24:38 <j-invariant> ehird: yeah I tried to write the same program in all languages, none of them are any good
23:24:48 <ehird> copumpkin: and maybe you do, but you certainly don't produce nontrivial proofs in it >:)
23:24:52 <ehird> because that's impossible!
23:24:56 <ehird> j-invariant: what was not good about it?
23:25:00 <ehird> about haskell i mean
23:25:09 <ehird> copumpkin: COQQQQQ
23:25:17 <j-invariant> ehird: consider modular arithmetic data type
23:25:28 <j-invariant> ehird: you need to implement type level numbers to do it
23:25:32 <copumpkin> I wrote that in two different ways in agda
23:25:38 <ehird> j-invariant: use she :)
23:25:43 <ehird> the best language!
23:25:57 <ehird> j-invariant: then you only have to implement nats ;P
23:26:03 <j-invariant> ehird: but I don't do modular arithmetic but polynomials
23:26:11 <ehird> Sgeo: she's a thing.
23:26:17 <copumpkin> Sgeo: she's a preprocessor for haskell
23:26:18 <j-invariant> I mean the type level "thing" is not a natural but a polynomial
23:26:22 <copumpkin> that I've started using for her other features, too
23:26:38 <j-invariant> can't do this in a reasonable way in haskuell
23:26:38 <ehird> j-invariant: just define a polynomial normally
23:26:43 <ehird> and she will define the type-level version
23:26:45 <ehird> what's wrong with that
23:26:48 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:26:51 <ehird> Sgeo: She's a SHE.
23:27:00 <ehird> j-invariant: does for me :-D
23:27:12 <ehird> but who needs strong kinding
23:27:14 <copumpkin> so if j-invariant wants to actually do something to the polynomial
23:27:23 <j-invariant> ehird: idk I just can't get stuff working it sucksf
23:27:31 <copumpkin> why do you need a polynomial at the type level anyway?
23:27:36 <j-invariant> I can't program in haskell it's like "woah what if everything is wrong?"
23:27:45 <copumpkin> agda's getting a better compiler or two soon too
23:28:26 <ehird> the answer to everything
23:28:45 <j-invariant> Everything sucks: When epigram2 comes out I will find out something that sucks about it after a week
23:28:50 <ehird> j-invariant: please say "i'm going to write my own language"
23:29:03 <copumpkin> yeah, with observational type theory
23:29:10 <ehird> j-invariant: YAAAAAAAY
23:29:25 <ehird> copumpkin: yeah who needs all that
23:29:27 <ehird> j-invariant: MEEEEEEE
23:29:33 <copumpkin> j-invariant: don't forget substructural types (all sorts of them)
23:29:33 <ehird> j-invariant: i suggest it have quotient types!</easywayout>
23:29:57 <ehird> copumpkin: but how do you avoid the extensional axiom of choice?
23:30:00 <copumpkin> j-invariant: definitely separate forall and pi
23:30:16 <copumpkin> I choose to not care about the AoC
23:30:26 <ehird> copumpkin: YOU CAN'T WELL-ORDER THE REALS DAMMIT
23:30:34 <ehird> </opinions taken from russell oconnor's blog>
23:30:46 <ehird> j-invariant: nuh uh!
23:30:48 <copumpkin> there's loads of blog posts telling you how to count the reals out there
23:31:05 <ehird> lol @ pi in the middle
23:31:06 <j-invariant> hm what would well ordered mean in type theory?
23:31:17 <ehird> http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html
23:31:23 <ehird> clearly you can't have quotient types
23:31:44 <ehird> if you can prove that you can well-order the reals in type theory + quotient types
23:31:49 <ehird> ... then what fucking program does that spit out?!
23:31:49 <luatre> ValueError: substring not found :(
23:34:20 <j-invariant> can we implement quotients in a type theory inside agda?
23:34:49 <Sgeo> I think Euphoria is supposed to be an "easy" language
23:35:10 <copumpkin> j-invariant: we can with setoid-like things
23:35:18 <Sgeo> http://openeuphoria.org/wiki/view.wc?page=SampleCode
23:35:22 * Sgeo assassinates someone
23:35:33 <copumpkin> I dunno, check the OTT implementation in agda?
23:35:47 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:36:28 <j-invariant> should I (1) sleep (2) write notes about this language that will probably never actually exist
23:36:44 <Sgeo> You should do 1, but you will do 2
23:37:04 <ehird> j-invariant: latter
23:37:23 <ehird> j-invariant: i wanna help :D
23:37:56 <copumpkin> j-invariant: you can follow conor's blog posts for the basic syntax and implementation
23:38:07 <ehird> j-invariant knows enough about Epigram i think :P
23:38:14 <ehird> oh man this python program is so ugly...
23:38:20 <ehird> if I was writing it in cled it'd be easy to navigate
23:38:34 <copumpkin> I mean, it's tricky to design a good AST that maintains invariants you want (especially the j- sort)
23:38:41 <copumpkin> and conor had a nice design on his blog
23:39:21 <Sgeo> ehird, all self-hosting things start out that way, I think
23:40:07 <Sgeo> Also, Clue should be written entirely in Clue. That makes no sense, but do it anyway
23:40:55 <ehird> j-invariant: more chatting about your language!
23:41:02 <j-invariant> ehird: I don't really know category theory
23:41:11 <ehird> j-invariant: don't base it on categories then
23:41:20 <j-invariant> ehird: but they are the solution to all problems?
23:41:21 <ehird> WHAT AN INTRUIGING IDEA
23:41:27 <ehird> j-invariant: or ARE they!!!!!!!!
23:41:45 <ehird> j-invariant: try and solve 80% of problems then :P
23:42:00 <ehird> self.fill_widget(self)
23:42:00 <ehird> TypeError: fill_widget() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)
23:42:30 <ehird> i love how tk just ignores errors, it's so cute
23:43:38 -!- rom9com has joined.
23:44:06 <ehird> what the fuck ... oh
23:44:08 -!- jesus_muppet has joined.
23:45:09 <ehird> copumpkin: gimme a unicode character that looks like a hole, or a box, or a cross or something
23:45:43 -!- calamari has joined.
23:45:45 <ehird> copumpkin: what is that :D
23:47:21 <ehird> wow it works ... kinda
23:47:31 <ehird> in a not really working way
23:51:16 <ehird> j-invariant: what is
23:51:55 <j-invariant> don't have the tools to make the tools etc.
23:52:42 <ehird> j-invariant: you have the latter surely
23:52:48 <ehird> haskell is good for implementing languages :P
23:54:22 <ehird> j-invariant: there's nothing to get
23:54:26 <j-invariant> I don't know how those guys can do anything with it
23:54:35 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/tesla DARNIT
23:55:01 <ehird> j-invariant: by testing code rather than proving it correct
23:55:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:58:25 <Sgeo> I think I'll try learning OCaml again
23:58:35 <Sgeo> Erm, reading about
23:59:19 <ehird> j-invariant: so tell me about your lang :P
00:00:13 * Sgeo turns back to Slate
00:01:33 <j-invariant> ehird: A universal property in category theory holds all extensional information about an objects behavior: the computational object is just a witness for the universal property
00:02:15 <j-invariant> ehird: if we want to do a large scale program it seems necessary to base modules on this: Otherwise a proof might require a computation that spans several modules (and takes hours to compute)
00:02:38 <ehird> j-invariant: i meant the language you thought you had enough knowledge to implement, but OK :P
00:02:41 <j-invariant> ehird: but category theory is not entirely non-computational: So it is very difficult
00:02:53 <j-invariant> when did I ever say I have any clue how to make it :P
00:03:46 <ehird> j-invariant: well i meant presumably you have a "better-than-Haskell" in your head that's like Haskell except better :)
00:03:50 <ehird> and i doubt that's based on category theory.
00:04:15 <j-invariant> oh I don't know if I have any significant ideas to improve haskell
00:04:33 <ehird> j-invariant: don't you have like 10 languages in your head at once :|
00:04:40 <ehird> i don't mean improve haskell
00:04:42 <ehird> j-invariant: what i'm saying is
00:04:52 <ehird> j-invariant: what language isn't based on category theory, and would be nice to implement this polynomial stuff in, in your head
00:09:11 <j-invariant> ehird: the silly thing is, THAT is the language I was trying to implement
00:09:22 <ehird> j-invariant: with the polynomials?
00:09:26 <ehird> j-invariant: hahah lmao that quadrescence post about haskell has got a followup
00:09:28 <j-invariant> ehird: anyway it's sort of an "algebra system"
00:09:32 <ehird> since the monad laws aren't automatically enforced,
00:09:39 <ehird> and since Monad isn't a subclass of Functor,
00:09:44 <ehird> Haskell is pseudo-mathematics
00:09:48 <j-invariant> ehird: but it's not for writing proofs in, just mathematical algorithm
00:10:03 <ehird> hmm he isn't here right now
00:10:06 <ehird> i wonder if he's gone away forever
00:10:07 <ehird> that would be nice
00:10:17 <ehird> copumpkin: we've had more than our fair share of him.
00:10:21 <ehird> more than #haskell.
00:10:38 <ehird> copumpkin: which one
00:11:02 <ehird> copumpkin: yeah, uh, i'm quoting from the follow up to that
00:11:38 <ehird> i started reading his uhh "book"
00:11:44 <ehird> he seems to think that rewriting languages solve everything
00:12:07 <ehird> 10.12.27:22:32:19 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: can you make any constructive suggestions?
00:12:07 <ehird> 10.12.27:22:33:08 <Quadrescence> rename monad to something else, delete "morphism" from your vocabulary unless you have reason to need it
00:12:07 <ehird> 10.12.27:22:36:27 <j-invariant> Quadrescence: that's not radical enough
00:12:08 <ehird> 10.12.27:22:37:56 <Quadrescence> ok, rename haskell to Fortran++
00:13:05 <ehird> he kept bugging everyone in here to write for his blog :)
00:14:22 <ehird> j-invariant: ages ago yes
00:14:27 <ehird> it's ... kinda cool i guess?
00:14:43 <ehird> i didn't look into it much!
00:14:56 <ehird> j-invariant: if you're going to write like, a dependent CAS, then i wouldn't try and e.g. implement polynomials in haskell
00:15:00 <j-invariant> the idea is good though: Use dependent types
00:15:05 <ehird> j-invariant: I'd implement a sort-of-symbolic dependent language
00:15:07 <ehird> and do the rest in that
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00:15:25 <copumpkin> dependent types are hard to implement nicely though
00:15:56 <coppro> ehird: why are you ehird
00:16:36 <ehird> copumpkin: says the agda user
00:16:38 <ehird> coq is soo easy :}}}}
00:17:08 <ehird> computers are useless, let's get rid of them
00:17:21 <ehird> j-invariant: you really need your own lang for it i feel...
00:17:27 <ehird> j-invariant: Axiom is kinda close to what you want in fact.
00:17:35 <ehird> as in, a dependent CAS
00:17:43 <pikhq> Hmm. The free ATi drivers seem to be genuinely non-shitty these days.
00:19:05 <ehird> pikhq: i need a unicode cross or something
00:19:13 <ehird> or a hollow square or circle
00:21:39 <ehird> j-invariant: have you seen Axiom?
00:22:05 <pikhq> Yup, definitely *insanely* better at video display, and I don't actually have a good OpenGL test case...
00:22:32 <pikhq> But as I clearly don't actually use OpenGL much, moot point. :P
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00:23:46 <ehird> j-invariant: you perhaps should
00:23:57 <ehird> j-invariant: it's also a gigantic literate program :^)
00:24:42 <ehird> j-invariant: basically Axiom is this crazy developed-since-1970 literate program that implements a strongly-typed, mathematical type hierarchy-based CAS
00:24:53 <ehird> j-invariant: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Matrixinmatrix.jpg
00:24:55 <ehird> j-invariant: note the Type: lines
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00:25:10 <ehird> j-invariant: fully symbolic, etc.
00:25:25 <j-invariant> ehird: yeah really I should stop being such a hermit and just use existing software
00:25:40 <ehird> j-invariant: oh i am not saying that axiom is the solution
00:25:44 <ehird> j-invariant: i'm saying you should look at it :)
00:26:01 <ehird> j-invariant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_(computer_algebra_system)#Documentation click a pdf and start reading :D
00:26:11 <ehird> it's the literate program
00:26:14 <ehird> coppro: oh grow up
00:26:36 <ehird> because he's even more childish than I am
00:26:39 <coppro> because this channel is better without ehird
00:26:40 -!- ehird has changed nick to eherd.
00:26:59 <eherd> *this channel is almost silent without
00:27:07 <eherd> and the bits that aren't silent, mostly incomprehensible one-sided conversations
00:27:32 <eherd> j-invariant: I think there are probably very few systems developed since the early 70s
00:27:42 <eherd> that are still in active (non-maintanence) development today
00:27:50 <coppro> eherd: changing your nick is not sufficient
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00:28:09 <eherd> coppro: my ident hasn't changed
00:28:14 <eherd> coppro: so if it's based on nickserv: HI.
00:28:28 -!- eherd has changed nick to ehurd.
00:28:30 <pikhq> Also, OMFG kernel mode setting.
00:28:31 <j-invariant> The Axiom project focuses on the "30 Year Horizon". The primary philosophy is that Axiom needs to develop several fundamental features in order to be useful to the next generation of computational mathematicians. Knuth's literate programming technique is used throughout the source code. Axiom plans to use proof technology to prove the correctness of the algorithms (such as Coq and ACL2).
00:28:35 <ehurd> coppro: there's no possible way i'm still ignored now
00:28:42 <coppro> lol literate programming
00:28:47 <coppro> I haven't not heard zzo38 today
00:28:56 <pikhq> It makes my framebuffer actually use the native resolution of the display!
00:29:03 <ehurd> OTHER THINGS ZZO38 LIKES: BREATHING
00:29:46 <j-invariant> ehurd: this is interesting actually, gonna check it out
00:29:57 <ehurd> j-invariant: "For example, Axiom’s integrator gives you the an- swer when an answer exists. If one does not, it provides a proof that there is no answer."
00:30:36 <ehurd> j-invariant: "A function can take a type as argument, and its return value can also be a type. For example, Fraction is a function, that takes an IntegralDomain as argument, and returns the field of fractions of its argument."
00:30:47 <ehurd> j-invariant: i think this is more like \Omega{}mega than Agda, though
00:32:53 <coppro> ehurd: so apparently you have a u now
00:33:19 <ehurd> j-invariant: is it?
00:33:33 <ehurd> coppro: it's obvious that your ignore didn't fail, btw.
00:33:45 <j-invariant> ehurd: it's just crazy, like reimplementing everything at multiple levels?
00:33:53 <ehurd> j-invariant: well i might be wrong
00:33:55 <ehurd> j-invariant: i just meant
00:34:01 <ehurd> j-invariant: i don't think that axiom lets you do actual dependency
00:34:04 <ehurd> j-invariant: i.e. pi types
00:34:08 <ehurd> j-invariant: sigma maybe
00:34:18 <ehurd> j-invariant: i don't know omegamega, so i wasn't trying to draw a strong comparison.
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00:35:05 <j-invariant> ehurd: it's probably dynamically checking types
00:35:10 <ehurd> j-invariant: no i do not think so
00:35:13 <ehurd> j-invariant: it's strongly-typed
00:35:24 <ehurd> j-invariant: which volume are you reading?
00:37:08 <copumpkin> it's neither sigma, nor pi, nor dynamically checking
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00:37:30 <j-invariant> copumpkin: owhat are you talking about? :D
00:40:01 <j-invariant> I am seeing universal properties and categories everywhre
00:40:29 <coppro> categories are everywhere
00:40:43 <j-invariant> coppro: I realized that divisibility forms a category
00:40:59 <copumpkin> any partial order can be made into a category
00:41:09 <ehurd> j-invariant: it's described at the top
00:41:28 <ehurd> j-invariant: so which volume are you reading
00:41:57 <j-invariant> divisibility is more special than any old partial order
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00:42:43 <copumpkin> most partial orders are more special than any old partial order :P
00:42:51 <ehurd> j-invariant: helloooo
00:42:52 <copumpkin> in fact, we can set up a partial order of partial orders
00:43:08 <ehurd> copumpkin: oh you crafty
00:43:29 <ehurd> j-invariant: how many more times should i ping you
00:45:29 <ehurd> j-invariant: which volume are you reading
00:47:40 <ehurd> j-invariant: you said about the 30 year thing
00:47:43 <ehurd> but that's mentioned in the book
00:47:59 <ehurd> j-invariant: http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf is the introduction book which contains all the interesting info
00:48:06 <ehurd> vs. all the implementation details and code in the rest more or less :P
00:48:16 <ehurd> j-invariant: contains the general overview of the system and cool stuff etc.
00:48:54 <ehurd> well ok there's more but
00:49:09 <ehurd> j-invariant: DID I MENTION: category theory plays a large part in axiom
00:49:57 <ehurd> although i don't know that for _sure_
00:55:55 <ehurd> j-invariant: are you reading it? :p
00:56:21 <ehurd> j-invariant: i think it's actually surprisingly close to what you were talking about wanting, from reading this volume 0
00:57:00 <ehurd> j-invariant: heh it uses categories to mean something other than what category theory means by them
00:59:31 <ehurd> i think j-invariant fell asleep
01:01:04 <coppro> j-invariant: are you kirby all of a sudden?
01:02:51 <j-invariant> (10 http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c6ps2
01:03:09 <ehurd> j-invariant: what's 2 :P
01:03:09 <j-invariant> (2) http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/ez93s/the_future_of_software_system_correctness/c1c7ks6
01:03:24 <j-invariant> exactly the same thing except one guy said "prime numbers" and the other guy said "halting problem"
01:03:53 <ehurd> not worth getting worked up over!
01:03:57 <ehurd> now read the axiom introduction, it's really interesting :P
01:04:08 <ehurd> i'm only on page 13 and i think it's cool
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01:09:15 <ehurd> copumpkin: you have strayed into a deadly trap
01:09:51 <ehurd> copumpkin: being the only active person who doesn't have me ignored >:)
01:09:56 <ehurd> now watch as i force you to test my awful software
01:10:31 <ehurd> my god, it's 381 lines
01:10:32 <ehurd> how did that happen
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01:17:11 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cw06e/the_mercury_language_take_prolog_speed_it_up/c0vpmgg
01:18:28 <coppro> Sgeo: tell me how ehird bashes it ok
01:18:41 <Sgeo> What I linked to was a joke
01:18:58 <Sgeo> Although yeah, I'm looking at Mercury
01:19:27 <ehurd> j-invariant: it's funny because prolog impls print yes
01:19:37 <ehurd> Sgeo: prince xml was written in mercury, btw
01:19:53 <ehurd> and is a very advanced, complex program, sold for lots of money, with a small binary size
01:20:03 <ehurd> converts XML/HTML + CSS into PDF, basically, with very high quality
01:20:11 <ehurd> http://princexml.com/
01:20:16 <Sgeo> coppro, ehurd is not bashing Mercury.
01:20:17 <ehurd> proof that the language can do shit, at least
01:20:27 <ehurd> j-invariant: yes they do
01:20:30 <Sgeo> This sort of reaction is what got me interested in Factor so long ago
01:20:34 <ehurd> j-invariant: well...
01:20:34 <coppro> he didn't mention it first
01:20:36 <ehurd> j-invariant: ok they actually don't
01:20:38 <ehurd> but they print No!
01:20:40 <ehurd> and that's what matters
01:20:43 <j-invariant> ehurd: that's some stupid SWI prolog thing
01:20:59 <ehurd> Sgeo: well i wouldn't want to write an actual program in Mercury myself.
01:21:10 <ehurd> logic programming doesn't gel with me.
01:21:27 <ehurd> but the fact that it has no cut or side-effects is nice :)
01:21:58 <ehurd> j-invariant: do you want to try out the initial cled prototype :D
01:22:36 <ehurd> j-invariant: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p7989249361.txt
01:22:39 <ehurd> j-invariant: just run as: python cled.py
01:22:48 <ehurd> try not to defocus the window afterwards, it doesn't like that
01:23:06 <ehurd> j-invariant: most of the underlying stuff is written but not exposed as the ui... but it can manipulate integer argument lists!
01:23:15 <Sgeo> The tutorial could use some work
01:23:33 <ehurd> j-invariant: quick rundown: lilac background means it's selected. j and k move around the current active object, selecting children of it, showed by highlighting with lilac.
01:23:50 <ehurd> j-invariant: e descends into the currently selected object. d ascends upwards from any objects.
01:24:04 <ehurd> j-invariant: if you descend into an integer, then you can rewrite the integer by typing a new one and hitting <return> or d.
01:24:27 <ehurd> j-invariant: to add a new element to a list (only in . -> things now (they're called examples)), press = to insert after the current element. + (shift-=) to insert before.
01:24:31 <ehurd> j-invariant: it's an editor
01:24:40 <ehurd> j-invariant: it's like seeing 42, pressing backspace twice, and typing a new on
01:24:44 <ehurd> it's an AST-based code editor
01:24:52 <ehurd> j-invariant: press x to delete an argument.
01:25:07 <ehurd> j-invariant: now, if you do =, it's "?", because it's waiting to decide what type you'll put in based on your input
01:25:09 <ehurd> this is called a box
01:25:16 <ehurd> if you d before entering a type, you'll see an ugly red ? in your program
01:25:21 <ehurd> these are call boxes, but they should be called holes.
01:25:30 <ehurd> they're basically just things that need objects but haven't filled in yet
01:25:39 <ehurd> if you try and delete the output of an example, or all the inputs, you just get a single box instead
01:25:44 <ehurd> that's pretty much it for now
01:25:48 <ehurd> note that if you ascend too far everything breaks
01:26:06 <ehurd> and "r" replaces the current selected thing with a box
01:26:11 <ehurd> which will probably be useful somehow!
01:26:23 <ehurd> but you can ascend too far
01:26:37 <ehurd> if you try and go above the list of examples
01:27:03 <ehurd> j-invariant: oh and Ctrl+S prints the current program to stdout
01:27:10 <ehurd> note that if you have boxes, this'll be an invalid program
01:28:10 <ehurd> oh and you should be able to enter [ into a hole instead of a digit or -, to get a list
01:28:12 <ehurd> but that doesn't work yet :)
01:28:31 <ehurd> j-invariant: incidentally, the programs are pretty-printed.
01:28:46 <ehurd> so for instance it outputs
01:28:47 <ehurd> depth of first ~ {. 0 -> 0
01:28:48 <ehurd> depth of first ~ {:. [[1 2] [3 4]] -> 2
01:28:52 <ehurd> :. [[[1 2 3] 4] 5] -> 3
01:28:54 <ehurd> : [[1 2 3] 4] -> 2}
01:28:56 <ehurd> depth of first ~ is list?; cons; car; cdr; succ; 0
01:28:58 <ehurd> with the right alignment everywhere
01:29:00 <ehurd> (that isn't generated by the code, but i know it does it properly :))
01:29:06 <ehurd> (or wait i think i did feed it in at some point. anyway.)
01:30:24 <ehurd> j-invariant: i'm not going to be able to convince you to read the first volume of axiom, am i :D
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01:33:06 <ehurd> ok i'll stop bugging you about it
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01:40:46 <ehurd> j-invariant: I don't think it does do type-checking at runtime... that would be lame anyway
01:40:54 <ehurd> Also I like the idea of it more if it doesn't :P
01:41:14 <ehurd> j-invariant: lol, you declare a module system like you do types, and even structures (like ring)
01:41:17 <ehurd> it's all the same mechanism
01:41:43 <ehurd> "Because the argument of Matrix is required to be a Ring, Axiom will not build nonsensical types such as “matrices of input files”."
01:41:47 <ehurd> brb implementing matrices of input files
01:41:59 <ehurd> j-invariant: yep, just read, it typechecks at compile times
01:43:18 <ehurd> *just read that it
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01:45:44 <ehurd> i'm only on page 21... wonder how much mindbending stuff is in the next 1198 pages
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01:45:59 <ehurd> erm actually page 40
01:46:04 <ehurd> but 21 in the actual book
01:46:24 <ehurd> pretty huge book, considering this is only volume 0
01:46:32 <ehurd> i wonder if you can buy a complete set bound in leather that takes up a whole shelf
01:47:05 <ehurd> j-invariant: btw here's a link, mostly for my logreading benefit since i had to find it again before: axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf
01:47:08 <ehurd> *http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/bookvol0.pdf
01:49:30 <ehurd> j-invariant: this seems to do a lot of stuff as polynomials, lol
01:49:39 <ehurd> i think you've accidentally reinvented this
01:50:02 <ehurd> j-invariant: mind you, i'd still like to see what you come up with
01:50:39 <ehurd> "The function factor can also be applied to complex numbers but the results aren’t quite so obvious as for factoring integer:
01:50:41 <ehurd> Type: Complex Integer"
01:50:45 <ehurd> i smell a documentation bug
01:52:12 <Sgeo> "Chapter XXX describes these modules in
01:53:52 <ehurd> Sgeo: hur hur it's funny because ex
01:54:12 <Sgeo> I'm just complaining about the incompleteness of the documentation
01:54:35 <ehurd> how is that incomplete
01:55:02 <ehurd> Sgeo: it's a book, what's the issue
01:55:07 <Sgeo> Those XXXs are all over the place
01:55:15 <ehurd> Sgeo: It's a number, isn't it.
01:55:29 <ehurd> I assume you're talking about Axiom?
01:55:36 <Sgeo> I'm talking about Mercury
01:55:42 <ehurd> Then I don't care! Yay!
01:55:50 <ehurd> j-invariant: should i make my own language
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01:57:18 <ehurd> j-invariant: semi-dependent-typing, in that it has kinds and metakinds etc. etc. etc., and kinds are automatically derived from normal data types (with the same name and constructors), /but/ nothing crosses the :
01:57:22 <ehurd> j-invariant: i.e., no pi types
01:57:32 <ehurd> that sounds easier to implement :D
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02:27:38 <j-invariant> Formal proof of correctness is not only tedious, time-consuming, and outlandishly expensive, it's also not necessarily effective! People commit errors when attempting a formal proof. There is no fool-proof way of determining if a proof is correct or not. -- JeffGrigg
02:28:36 <coppro> clearly he doesn't know what a formal proof is
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02:30:43 <copumpkin> j-invariant: it says "adjunction" posted that
02:30:50 <copumpkin> but adjunction clearly doesn't think that
02:30:54 <copumpkin> because I've seen other things he posted
02:38:38 <Sgeo> MORE LANGUAGES
02:39:04 <Sgeo> I find myself interested in the concept of dataflow programming
02:39:15 <Sgeo> j-invariant, is there still any work being done on Oz?
02:39:25 <Sgeo> Last ... thingy was 2008
02:40:44 <oklopol> "<elliott> j-invariant: yeah there is basically no way you could do recursive functions (only flow control other than branching really) with a stupid search like that" <<< actually i have a good feeling about another way to do recursion stuff, although the idea is so simple i'll want to try it before saying it might work
02:41:00 <oklopol> but i'm usually right, like i was right about demolishing!
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02:46:01 <j-invariant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_%28category_theory%29
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02:46:34 <oklopol> "<elliott> 21:29 cdsmithus: EvanR-work: It's pretty easy to see. Just enumerate all the 0-length strings (finitely many), then all the 1-length, then the 2-length, and so on. Every finite string has some length, and will be reached eventually" <<< this doesn't work
02:48:34 <oerjan> as long as your alphabet is finite
02:49:09 <oerjan> if your alphabet is countably infinite, though...
02:49:55 <Sgeo> "Googles Go language uses a quicksort, though this is considered by some to be a bug.
02:51:13 <Sgeo> "Somewhat typical of PHPs API, there are actually thirteen different built-in array sorting functions"
02:52:04 <oerjan> <j-invariant> oklopol: i am incapable or ferror <-- so, which one is it?
02:53:48 <oerjan> Sgeo: quicksort has bad worst-case behavior...
02:54:03 <Sgeo> I said "Ah" after reading the compaints
02:55:01 <oerjan> yeah, "Ah" is such a heavily information-loaded word
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03:03:02 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol likes Python for, like, totally different reasons to everyone else." <<< the reason i like python is i used to like it, and used it so much it's soooooooooooo easy now. this is also why my programs are so retarded in syntax and how i do things locally, i actually don't think at all, i just write
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03:06:29 <oklopol> '<j-invariant> Why don't we get people that just learned thermodynamics and join every fucking energy discussion with "YYEAH BUT YOU CANT CREATE INFINITE FREE ENERGY SO WHY BOTHER WITH WINDMILLS?"' xD
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03:07:36 <Sgeo> oklopol, you like Python for the same reason I do!
03:07:50 <Sgeo> I am more practiced with Python than any other language
03:10:06 <variable> oerjan, Sgeo Java has some weird behavior. <= 7 elements it uses insertion sort and > 7 it uses quicksort
03:12:40 <oerjan> variable: well that's not so weird
03:12:56 <oerjan> it's well known that simpler sorts are faster for very short lists
03:13:09 <variable> oerjan, actually it happens to be optimal for other reasons as well
03:13:17 <variable> I meant to say "modified quicksort"
03:13:33 <variable> and the number 7 isn't arbitrary either
03:14:06 <oerjan> well i'd assume without evidence that the <= 7 case is also used for sorting sublists in the quicksort?
03:16:29 <variable> Java's sort is based on http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=172710
03:17:46 <oklopol> "<oerjan> um yes it does" "<oerjan> as long as your alphabet is finite" <<< also the algorithm of doing nothing works. (as long as the alphabet is empty)
03:18:10 <Sgeo> How long until we have non-Python languages running on CPython?
03:18:40 <Sgeo> Atomo runs on Haskell's whatever, a bunch of stuff runs on Erlang's VM, I'm pretty sure there's Ruby stuff....
03:18:46 <Sgeo> JVM and .NET are obvious
03:19:18 <variable> oerjan, Sgeo btw - I was talking about an array of ints
03:19:28 <variable> it uses something else (I think merge sort) for objects
03:19:47 <oklopol> oerjan: if you'd read context from 64 hours ago, you'd've known alphabet was just specified countable
03:20:01 <variable> oerjan, int[] array is sorted differently than Integer[] array
03:20:54 <oerjan> variable: i guess they are assuming comparing two elements is so much more expensive then that it affects things...
03:21:17 <oklopol> there should be a nonstandard set theory: \exists set S such that S^N is finite, but S is nonempty
03:21:28 <oklopol> (from nonstandard analysis, although that was probably clear)
03:21:38 <variable> oerjan, I don't remember exactly what they use to sort Objects. I __think__ its merge sort
03:23:15 <oerjan> variable: hm. i could see why they'd want to use a different cutoff but not why they'd switch to another sort for large arrays entirely
03:24:15 <variable> oerjan, I'm no Java expert - I just spent one semester too long learning Java :-\
03:24:59 <oerjan> i haven't even learned it properly
03:25:24 <oklopol> i know everything about java, but i still can't understand love
03:26:29 <oerjan> I love the java jive and it loves me
03:28:14 <oklopol> i hate the halting problem
03:28:40 <oklopol> it's like the least interesting piece of math ever, and everyone thinks they understand what it means on a deep philosophical level
03:29:47 <oklopol> it should be stripped of its popularity by force
03:30:33 <oerjan> ...it is the basis of most other undecidability theorems, isn't it
03:30:35 <oklopol> did you catch my inverse semigroup stuff
03:30:45 <oklopol> oerjan: it's a very important theorem, yes
03:31:21 <oklopol> it shouldn't be uninvented or anything
03:31:28 <oklopol> there's tons of interesting stuff *on top of it*
03:32:48 <oklopol> it's the popularity that annoys me
03:33:03 <oklopol> oh, well right, it's not actually the *least* interesting piece of math ever, maybe :D
03:33:44 <oklopol> but it's not a particularly interesting theorem
03:34:44 <oklopol> and i always hate it when someone tries to add ugly technicaly philosophy to a beautiful and pure formal mathematical theorems
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03:35:49 <oklopol> + more random adjectives before the terms why not
03:35:51 <coppro> it's like listening to a philosophy prof talk about math
03:35:58 <coppro> it's almost actually painful
03:36:40 <oklopol> oerjan: i proved that in an inverse semigroup (so *unique* y such that x = xyx, y = yxy), idempotents form a semilattice
03:37:42 <oklopol> coppro: i haven't actually heard, but my dad studied philosophy, and he could recite these completely meaningless statements he'd learned for class that were some sort of explanations for the achilles paradox etc
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03:38:24 <oklopol> maybe they weren't meaningless originally, but my dad butchered them completely :D
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03:40:11 <oklopol> but in any case, who the fuck needs to learn about the achilles paradox... if i started studying philosophy, and i realized i was listening to a *lecture* about that retarded thing, i'd probably take a good look in the mirror, and kill everyone.
03:40:42 <oklopol> oerjan: THAT'S NOT ALL THOUGH
03:40:46 <oklopol> ...about inverse semigroups
03:40:48 <oerjan> um if you don't know any calculus and stuff then it probably _is_ somewhat mysterious
03:42:24 <oklopol> yes, possibly; now consider an arbitrary congruence on an inverse semigroup
03:42:34 <oklopol> (in the usual semigroup sense)
03:42:49 <oklopol> (although it does turn out that the quotient is an inverse semigroup)
03:42:59 * Sgeo surrenders and goes to install Cygwin
03:43:33 <oklopol> (that's not actually trivial i think, you need lallement's lemma, which says for all idempotents in the image, there is an idempotent in the preimage)
03:43:46 <oklopol> let's call this congruence p
03:44:37 <oklopol> we define x p_{min} y <=> \exists e \in E_S: xe = ye, x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y
03:45:04 <oklopol> that's an equivalence relation, since idempotents commute
03:45:42 <oklopol> let that be true for xe = ye, yf = zf
03:45:55 <oklopol> then i was thinking xef = yef = yfe = zfe = zef
03:46:05 <oklopol> but is the second thing true
03:46:49 <oklopol> because we know y^-1 y p f, and therefore e p f, and therefore also x^-1 x p f
03:47:24 <oklopol> so yeah that's an eq relation, but here's the fun thing: that's actually the minimal congruence with the same trace
03:47:45 <oerjan> there's some = missing up there
03:48:37 * oerjan somehow started reading it as an idempotent
03:48:38 <oklopol> it was rho in the lecture notes, and i'm copy pasting from my head
03:49:06 <Ilari> Hmm... Does ShowIP have some subtle bias: IPv4 addresses get shown as red and IPv6 addresses as green... :-)
03:49:06 <oklopol> so for instance, consider the trivial congruence S x S
03:49:33 <oklopol> then, p_{min} is actually the minimal congruence q such that S/q is a group
03:49:49 <oklopol> because a quotient is a group if and only if idempotents are identified
03:50:18 <oklopol> because an inverse semigroup is a group iff it has exactly one idempotent
03:51:14 <oklopol> to prove that \exists e \in E_S: xe = ye, x^-1 x p e p y^-1 y is a congruence, you prove that it's a left congruence and that it's a right congruence separately, and that's actually kinda technical
03:51:23 <oklopol> because you have to guess the idempotent
03:52:11 <oklopol> but so let x p_{min} y, and e be the proof; consider xz vs. yz and the idempotent z'ez where ' is inverse
03:53:04 <oklopol> then xzz'ez = xezz'z = xez = yez = yezz'z = yzz'ez
03:53:15 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't think i'm capable of concentrating enough to follow this stuff
03:53:27 <oklopol> did you get the actual theorem tho?
03:53:42 <oklopol> i think that's really nice even if i skip the proof
03:54:12 <oklopol> that for each congruence p, there's minimal p_{min} with the same trace, with that definition i gave
03:54:21 <oklopol> trace = what idempotents are identified
03:54:48 <oerjan> that's hard too because i don't have an intuition for how "inverses" are supposed to behave
03:55:35 <oerjan> hm wait is x^-1 x = x x^-1 always?
03:55:46 <oklopol> like in groups, except that there are multiple 1-elements.
03:56:08 <oklopol> x^-1 x = x x^-1 <<< no, but both are idempotent
03:56:45 <oklopol> idempotents commute, so often you just care about the fact you have *some* idempotent somewhere
03:57:01 <oklopol> should give examples maybe, have none...
03:58:59 <oklopol> it took me quite a while to get a grip on how inverse semigroups work
03:59:34 <oklopol> so i don't exactly blame you if you have no ability to follow the stuff, mainly i wanted to advertise properties of inv semigroups... :D
04:00:09 <oklopol> like that p_{min} thing, which is unique to inv semigroups in the semigroup monoid group etc family
04:00:36 <Ilari> Fun use for ShowIP. Visit all sorts of IPv6-related sites and see which ones support IPv6.
04:00:40 <oklopol> (erm i mean of course it's true for groups......)
04:01:28 <oklopol> alright my alarm clock is tickling.
04:02:47 <oerjan> Ilari: ooh, i guess we're just a week or two from exhaustion now?
04:03:11 <oerjan> or has it already happened
04:03:23 <oerjan> (that APNIC allocation thing)
04:03:34 <oklopol> algebra is so damn sexy really, if i was any good at it, i might even consider doing my phd out of that stuff
04:04:08 <oerjan> oklopol: tickling alarm clock?
04:04:38 <oklopol> well i mean i'm awesome at it but i don't really have an intuition on what constitutes as interesting new research
04:04:49 <Ilari> Not yet... Projections are turn of the month... But APNIC can justify allocation at any moment.
04:05:22 <oklopol> of course, i suppose you should always try to follow the road of *actually solving problems*
04:05:35 * oerjan imagines bosses at APNIC headquarters sitting rubbing their hands and cackling maniacally
04:05:43 <oklopol> oerjan: tickling sounds like it could mean some sort of beeping imo
04:05:55 <oklopol> and i already once used that word wrong in your presense
04:06:11 <oerjan> oklopol: well there are already vibrating cell phones...
04:06:37 <oerjan> but a tickling alarm clock would sort of have to be _in_ your bed...
04:06:51 <oklopol> my bed is too full of stuff to fit an alarm clock
04:06:54 <oerjan> well or it could be a wrist watch i guess
04:07:04 <oerjan> oklopol: do you have room to sleep :D
04:07:37 <oklopol> i should consider cleaning up this place at some poitn
04:07:45 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
04:08:17 <oklopol> it's been about a week and i haven't moved any of the stuff, and since i moved from a twice bigger apartment, there's suddenly huge amounts of stuff :D
04:10:16 <oklopol> these student apartments are so crappy i'm actually considering applying for a better one, mainly due to the facts i'm never going to be able to eat food if i have to prepare it in the presence of other people, everyone hears me watch porn at night and the fact the refrigerator wakes me up at 4 am ever morning
04:10:50 <oklopol> the last one is actually not annoying at all, i just wanted to mention it :D
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04:11:56 <oklopol> but a place full of students is like the worst place to have thin walls, at 4 am on a wednesday, it's not rare to feel someone suddently yell "WHAT THE FUCK MAN?!?"
04:16:37 <Ilari> It appears most dedicated IPv6 sites have IPv6 addresses... But some don't.
04:19:46 <Ilari> Last entry on IANA allocations for IPv6: 2006-10-03... That's over 4 years ago...
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04:44:55 <Ilari> Whee... Mac OS X doesn't support DHCPv6 (according to these slides).
04:45:53 <Ilari> Haha... Blank slide titled "Response from Users".
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05:27:53 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGIii_eTOk
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05:37:14 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3bkmD-70e4&feature=related&fmt=18
05:38:28 <Sgeo> All C#-like languages bore me
05:39:41 * Sgeo says that as he listens to a song he STRONGLY associates with Vala
05:40:08 * oerjan wonders why Sgeo adds the #
05:40:35 <Sgeo> Because most of these highly marketed languages are closer to C# than C?
05:40:45 <Sgeo> Although yeah, C-like bores me too
05:40:58 <Sgeo> Not "highly" I guess. Hmm
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05:41:47 <hagb4rd> well, it might be interesting experimenting with words, rhymes & rhytm.. but language becomes indefferent if u really want to say something
05:42:41 * oerjan was not aware that C# had spawned its own subfamily
05:43:59 <Ilari> Most dedicated IPv6 sites support IPv6... But seems that many don't. :-)
05:44:27 <Sgeo> Ugh. We really need to get on the ball and start supporting IPv7.
06:02:23 <Ilari> Shortest IPv6 address I have seen on public webserver: 11 characters. Longest: 39 (which is the longest possible).
06:04:09 <Ilari> I believe the shortest possible valid IPv6 unicast address would be 9 characters...
06:05:09 <Ilari> Ah, actually, nope... 7.
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06:07:56 <Ilari> 2003::1 is at least an allocated address.
06:14:15 <oerjan> i'll locate _your_ address
06:16:06 <Sgeo> What happens when we run out of MAC addresses?
06:18:36 <Sgeo> Only 2^6 organizations can make network cards?
06:19:11 <Sgeo> 64 manufacturers
06:19:16 <Sgeo> Past that, we run out
06:23:13 <myndzi> where'd you learn to math
06:23:49 <myndzi> mac addresses are 12 hex digits; first half is manufacturer, second is device
06:25:43 <quintopia> onoez. each manufacturer can only make 16m nics!
06:25:55 <myndzi> or, they can get another id
06:26:00 <myndzi> maybe they give them out in ranges
06:26:06 <quintopia> which is why it's stupid to break it up that way
06:26:15 <myndzi> gotta break it up somehow
06:26:29 <myndzi> better to hand out multiple ids to a manufacturer than give too many device ids to one and nobody can use them
06:28:18 <quintopia> why not just hand out ranges of MACs on a need-some-more basis and just have a public database if you really need the manufacturer?
06:28:36 <myndzi> i dunno, i just sorta guessed it was something like that
06:28:55 <myndzi> http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/
06:29:07 <myndzi> first google result for "mac address manufacturer database" ;P
06:29:31 <myndzi> http://standards.ieee.org/cgi-bin/ouisearch
06:29:48 <myndzi> it does look like an as needed basis
06:29:53 <myndzi> intel has a bunch but they aren't consecutive
06:33:03 <fizzie> 3com cards used to be 00:01:02, but now they have a billion (for billion = 47) vendor IDs.
06:33:17 <Sgeo> Wikipedia says 8 bits for the manufacturer
06:33:41 <fizzie> There are some flags in the upper bits.
06:33:54 <Sgeo> Oh wow, I misread the image
06:34:59 <Sgeo> Maybes I needs sleep
06:38:24 <quintopia> i just don't understand why they need to assign them in 16m chunks
06:39:26 <fizzie> Assigning in smaller units would mean more processing of "gimme more" forms.
06:39:53 <fizzie> I guess the assumption is that if you're manufacturing chips, you're going to do a lot of them.
06:41:10 <quintopia> i wonder how many vendors go out of business or stop manufacturing right in the middle of a block. or right at the beginning of one even
06:44:07 <fizzie> They've only allocated 14503 OUIs out of the 4194304 possible, so we don't seem to be running out just ye.
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06:45:33 <Sgeo> What is Rexx, and why is it so low on popularity charts
06:45:37 <Sgeo> Often lower than COBOL
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07:07:25 <fizzie> There are quite many Rexx-using Amigists, due to ARexx; but maybe that does not count.
07:08:01 <fizzie> It's not-so-uncommon as an embedded scripting language sort of thing.
07:11:00 <fizzie> I guess you could even call ARexx the Amiga AppleScript, except that sounds pretty silly.
07:12:51 <fizzie> Also I'd like to mention that I'm not an Amiga user, but some of my best friends are (er... were), and there is nothing "wrong" or "shameful" about being one, despite what some people say.
07:22:03 <Vorpal> or should I say night.
07:22:44 <Vorpal> Woke up due to electric saw. Which was used due to the people here to repair the leaking water from the roof. Oh well.
07:23:02 <fizzie> It is already morning-time.
07:23:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, it isn't morning until 09:00 IMO
07:23:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, and even then only if it has to be.
07:24:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was woken up by this sound at 07:33
07:24:22 <fizzie> I'd classify anything before 04:00 as night, after 06:00 as morning, and the part in the middle is a bit of a grey area.
07:24:29 <fizzie> I was woken up by an alarm clock at 07:10.
07:24:38 <fizzie> Well, briefly, anyway.
07:24:51 <fizzie> It didn't quite "take", and then I actually got up at 08:10 or so.
07:24:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I prefer morning to start at 10:00 and end at 11:30
07:25:14 <Vorpal> 11:30-12:00 is "förmiddag" (can't remember English word for that atm)
07:25:30 <Vorpal> (wait, does English have afternoon but not prenoon?)
07:26:39 <fizzie> They sort-of have a "forenoon", but I think that's a bit rare.
07:27:19 <fizzie> Also WordNet conflates that with "morning".
07:27:26 <fizzie> 1. morning, morn, morning time, forenoon -- (the time period between dawn and noon; "I spent the morning running errands")
07:27:41 <fizzie> OED lists it separately, but still as "The portion of the day before noon".
07:28:33 <fizzie> I don't think they quite separate morgon/förmiddag like we do. (That's fi: aamu/aamupäivä.)
07:30:40 <fizzie> Even going by the dawn-based definition of "morning", it already is that here: sunrise today is at 09:15, and it's about 09:30 now.
07:32:57 <oerjan> you pesky southerners and your early mornings
07:45:32 <fizzie> Intriguing: Trondheim (suggested by grep) is at 63.43N (10.395E) while Lieksa (the place I'm sort-of from except not quite) is at 63.32N (30.025E); that's only a 12 kilometre difference in the North-South direction.
07:48:01 <oerjan> heh i guess it's just the timezone difference then
07:48:37 <fizzie> The "from" was also in sort of an "originally from" sense; currently I'm in Helsinki, which is quite a lot southener.
07:49:01 <fizzie> Or more accurately Espoo, I guess.
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07:51:00 <fizzie> 60.1868N 24.8218E is the location of this university building; that's 361 km southwards. (And then take a right turn and go east for a bit.)
07:51:13 <fizzie> (That's the 270-degree right turn.)
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07:52:36 <fizzie> (I can't seem to tell my left hand from my right.)
07:53:12 <fizzie> A knuckle tattoo, with the left hand saying LEFT and the other one RGHT.
07:53:49 <oerjan> i call rule 34 on that, or something
07:54:22 <oerjan> no google, i _am_ trying to search for rght
07:54:24 <fizzie> oerjan: http://www.knuckletattoos.com/gunCache/t_LEFTRGHT.jpg -- it has the benefit of being also wrongly oriented!
07:55:09 <oerjan> well that's obviously photoshopped
07:55:23 <fizzie> Well, yes, it's a generator that makes those images. I just entered LEFTRGHT in it.
07:56:47 <oerjan> sadly google seems to fail me
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12:25:10 <ais523> wow, first time ever that a spam message went through all the other filters server-side and was caught by my email client
12:52:03 <cheater00> it's obvious it was DESTINED to be
12:52:12 <cheater00> maybe you should read it and memorize it
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13:56:47 <Sgeo_> Is Clean worth learning?
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14:00:47 * Sgeo_ isn't particularly interested in Clean being faster
14:00:57 <Sgeo_> There are some things that I can imagine being interested in
14:01:08 <Sgeo_> Other than the language itself
14:02:35 <Sgeo_> Say, things like a more.. convenient environment to work with, etc
14:02:58 <Sgeo_> Better module system or whatnot also, although I guess that's a language thing
14:04:23 * Sgeo_ gets bored and wanders off
14:09:44 <Sgeo_> "I think that there is a market for books with fewer pages; there
14:09:44 <Sgeo_> are many people out there that need to learn computer science, but do
14:09:44 <Sgeo_> not appreciate reading"
14:10:36 <Sgeo_> ...suddenly I think this Preface is meant in jest
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14:19:33 <Sgeo_> Book says to use the Everything environment. There is no Everything environment.
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15:09:32 <oerjan> <j-invariant> I think it's just haskell without monads?
15:09:53 <oerjan> iirc clean is complete capable of monads, it's just that it doesn't need them for IO
15:10:35 <oerjan> using uniqueness typing instead to thread the "world" through computations.
15:11:33 <Sgeo_> Is it interesting enough to play with?
15:11:38 <Sgeo_> And fall in love with? >.>
15:11:46 <oerjan> this allows many computations to be performed with in-place updating, but yet be conceptually pure
15:12:14 <Sgeo_> I think I like that thought
15:12:26 <Sgeo_> Better module system etc
15:12:50 * oerjan doesn't recall what module system clean has
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15:16:12 <Sgeo_> "It is also available with limited input/output capabilities and without the "Dynamics" feature for Apple Macintosh, Solaris and Linux."
15:18:15 <fizzie> I like things that have a theme naming thing going on. Like the "awesome" window manager, which has a standard scripting library called "awful", a theming thing called "beautiful", widget thingies called "wicked", "obvious" and "vicious", a notification thingie called "naughty", and so on.
15:18:29 <Sgeo_> fizzie, so do you love Newspeak?
15:18:33 <fizzie> (To clarify: I don't like the WM that much, just the naming.)
15:18:49 <Sgeo_> Brazil, Hopscotch, MiniTest, etc
15:19:16 <Sgeo_> [Not actually sure if Hopscotch fits thematically]
15:20:02 <Sgeo_> Why didn't shutup bother me?
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15:21:13 <fizzie> I can't figure out any examples of actual things that I'd like that'd have a clear naming theme right now, it's just the idea I like.
15:21:48 <fizzie> Well, Chicken Scheme extensions are called "eggs", and I think it has some other related terms in use.
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15:26:41 <fizzie> Right, the object system (one of them) was called COOPS.
15:29:35 <Sgeo> There's several?
15:37:55 <fizzie> COOPS is one of those eggs
15:40:35 <fizzie> There are approximately 7 different object systems in the egg repository.
15:41:29 <fizzie> http://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html#oop
15:42:15 <Sgeo> Are they all incompatible?
15:44:26 <fizzie> They're made by different people for different purposes, I don't see why (or even how, except kludgily) they should be compatible.
15:44:48 <Sgeo> "Procedures can have no more than 4096 arguments." --Mozart/Oz limitation
15:44:51 * Sgeo is not worried
15:47:43 <j-invariant> "Procedures can have no more than 4096 arguments." --Mozart/Oz limitation
15:47:50 <j-invariant> "Procedures can have no more than 1 arguments." --Haskell limitation
15:49:49 <oerjan> "Look, this isn't an argument." --Monty Python
15:55:05 * Sgeo mildly deja vus
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16:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Act like interpreting the date in binary means something.
16:14:35 <variable> Phantom_Hoover, its just for fun - get over it
16:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "It's just for fun" can't be used as an all-purpose justification.
16:16:18 <hagb4rd> justified with empty words, the party gets better and better
16:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Now, 11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second will be the time for partying.
16:17:18 * hagb4rd went away alone, with nothing left but faith
16:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Regrettably, it's 11 seconds after the Remembrance Day two-minute silence starts, so partying may be frowned upon.
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16:32:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah the only reason to party is when you get a power of two in unix time ;)
16:33:00 <Sgeo> RealPlayer still exists?
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17:06:36 <elliott> 18:30:43 <copumpkin> j-invariant: it says "adjunction" posted that
17:06:40 <elliott> copumpkin: I think j-invariant is adjunction
17:08:16 <elliott> variable: excuse me, I believe your information to be inaccurate
17:08:19 <elliott> variable: Java uses timsort
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17:08:37 <elliott> It operates by finding runs in the data. Descending runs are reversed. Then, the size of the run is checked against the minimum run size for that particular array size. The minimum run size depends on the size of the array. For an array of fewer than 64 elements, the minimum run size is the entire array, making timsort essentially a fancy insertion sort in that case. For larger arrays, a number between 32 and 64 is chosen so that the
17:08:37 <elliott> size of the array divided by the minimum run size is equal to, or slightly smaller than, a power of two. The final algorithm for it simply takes the most significant six bits of the size of the array, adds one if any of the remaining bits are set, and uses that as the minimum run size. If the run is too small, insertion sort is used to increase the run until it's the minimum size. The runs are then merged together via merge sort to pr
17:08:37 <elliott> oduce the final sorted array.[3]
17:08:41 <elliott> variable: not quickxort-based
17:08:51 <elliott> variable: well ok this is only used since Java 7
17:09:16 <elliott> 19:18:10 <Sgeo> How long until we have non-Python languages running on CPython?
17:09:20 <elliott> Sgeo: um a few things do that
17:09:22 <copumpkin> elliott: that's what I think too (I think I wrote it after that)
17:09:23 <elliott> Sgeo: for instance Clue is going to
17:09:30 <elliott> copumpkin: by "I think", I mean 99% sure
17:09:38 <elliott> copumpkin: also, I think he was quoting it as mockery ...
17:09:58 <copumpkin> except that given his other posting history, it was pretty obviously not what he thought
17:10:15 <Sgeo> elliott, huh. Are there any languages that don't have other languages running on their... system?
17:11:06 <elliott> copumpkin: I think j-invariant was trying to see how many points it'd get :)
17:11:17 <elliott> anyway, /me continues logreading
17:11:22 <elliott> that's one thing you zany #haskellers can't do!
17:11:26 <elliott> we have nice, digestible 100k logs
17:11:48 <elliott> 19:19:18 <variable> oerjan, Sgeo btw - I was talking about an array of ints
17:13:41 <elliott> 19:21:17 <oklopol> there should be a nonstandard set theory: \exists set S such that S^N is finite, but S is nonempty
17:13:41 <elliott> 19:21:28 <oklopol> (from nonstandard analysis, although that was probably clear)
17:13:48 <elliott> oklopol: omg that would be amazing... invent that
17:19:05 <elliott> 21:38:28 <Sgeo> All C#-like languages bore me
17:19:05 <elliott> 21:39:41 * Sgeo says that as he listens to a song he STRONGLY associates with Vala
17:19:05 <elliott> how the fuck do you associate a song with Vala
17:20:02 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah the only reason to party is when you get a power of two in unix time ;)" <<< ah, all ones!
17:20:13 <oklopol> along the lines of "11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second"
17:20:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, oh, all ones too. Which is just power of two - 1
17:21:04 <Sgeo> elliott, by being extremely obsessed with a song and having it on loop at the same time as reading about the language
17:23:42 <oklopol> Vorpal: a power of two has more 1's than power of two - 1
17:24:28 <elliott> but the ones are WORTH more!
17:24:37 <elliott> oklopol: so did you hear, cled is working
17:24:39 <oklopol> oerjan: it has infinitely many doesn't it?
17:25:06 <elliott> oklopol: btw re first-class functions
17:25:12 <oklopol> that's why i explained: 'along the lines of "11/11/11 11:11:11 and a ninth of a second"'
17:25:15 <elliott> oklopol: you should NOT add lambda syntax
17:25:25 <Vorpal> but it doesn't count unless you convert it to graycode first
17:25:25 <elliott> oklopol: in e.g. map, the lambda parameter must be an existing clue function :)
17:25:26 <oklopol> elliott: oh i was not gonna, don't worry
17:25:53 <oklopol> elliott: that was the original plan, however, how about single-example lambdas?
17:26:17 <elliott> oklopol: here's how i'd do it
17:26:17 <elliott> map ~ {. <succ> [] -> [] } map ~ {:. <succ> [1 2 3] -> [2 3 4] : <succ> [2 3] -> [3 4] } map ~ []; car; cdr
17:26:23 <elliott> obviously <succ> can be any clue function you want
17:26:26 <oklopol> or like xxx ~ function 1; function 2; helper object; { . 1 -> 2. 3 -> 6 };
17:26:39 <elliott> oklopol: hmm i don't see why you'd need that?
17:26:45 <elliott> clue is good at inferring functions, after all
17:27:36 <oklopol> just a random idea, what you said is pretty much exactly what i was thinking
17:27:48 <Sgeo> What's with more of the < >?
17:27:49 <variable> elliott, I timsort is an interesting sort - but I don't believe Java uses it - at least not in the current implementation
17:27:55 <oklopol> Sgeo: because names can have spaces
17:28:09 <elliott> Timsort is a hybrid sorting algorithm derived from merge sort and insertion sort, designed to perform well on many kinds of real-world data. It was invented by Tim Peters in 2002 for use in the Python programming language, and has been Python's standard sorting algorithm since version 2.3. It is now also used to sort arrays in Java SE 7,[1] and on the Android platform.[2]
17:28:17 <oklopol> so you probably want a separator that's not whitespace
17:28:29 <oklopol> but because whitespace is the separator, the only non-ugly way is to enclose the function name
17:28:32 <elliott> oklopol: <> is nice because it used to have another meaning, so it breaks backwards compat!
17:28:38 <elliott> oklopol: {} and [] are kinda taken, and () is ugly
17:28:44 <Sgeo> What was the other meaning?
17:29:13 <oklopol> "just this thing having to do with the hardest thing to explain about clue"
17:29:25 <oklopol> i just can't manage to do it succinctly
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17:29:56 <oklopol> all functions are switch statement + expression with possibly recursion; <> was used to give a function used in the switch statement
17:30:05 <oklopol> now, that's inferred completely, as well
17:30:05 <elliott> yeah and you always used <id>
17:30:08 <elliott> bcuz it was made of retard
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17:32:34 <j-invariant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_%28computer_algebra_system%29
17:33:11 <oklopol> lol ~ {. {. <{. 6 -> 7} ~ succ> 3 -> 5 } 4 -> 8 }
17:33:25 <elliott> oklopol: xD i... how should i say this... no :P
17:33:35 <oklopol> hmm, i suppose you need explicit apply
17:33:42 <elliott> oklopol: but um yeah why compromise purity like that ...
17:33:42 <Phantom_Hoover> <j-invariant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_%28computer_algebra_system%29 ← what about it?
17:33:44 <oklopol> because not having it would be retarded
17:33:47 <elliott> oklopol: it's not like adding another function is much work
17:33:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i was talking about it w/ j-invariant yesterday
17:33:56 <elliott> oklopol: also, "explicit apply"?
17:34:00 <elliott> you mean like, apply being a function?
17:34:21 <elliott> oklopol: why not cons(#0(car(#1)) @(cdr(#1)))
17:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, did the conversation consist of "<elliott> It sucks. <j-invariant> I agree."?
17:34:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, i think it's cool
17:34:46 <elliott> and i think it might be what j-invariant was inventing mostly
17:34:48 <oklopol> elliott: because objects shouldn't have operations attached to them
17:34:51 <oklopol> functions are no exception
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17:35:03 <elliott> oklopol: surely, then, you should have to include apply in every list
17:35:12 <elliott> to call all the other functions in the bag
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17:35:25 <elliott> (done by using apply in an infinite regress, naturally)
17:35:35 <oklopol> elliott: that is true, but see in the grand scheme of things, apply would be good, since in clue 2.0, "function tools" would be included by default
17:35:44 <oklopol> just like list tools would be if you were using alist
17:35:46 <elliott> oklopol: fair enough then.
17:35:58 <elliott> oklopol: i hope clue 2 doesn't break cled too horribly.
17:36:06 <Guest32802> Hi everyone, I have a question regarding a bf converter. I'd like to write a converter that converts a given string to bf, with one small catch: I
17:36:16 <Guest32802> I would like it to optimize the output as much as possible
17:36:23 <oklopol> elliott: and while apply would be in all your millions of higher-order functions, it's still possible you sometimes don't want to be able to apply
17:36:25 <Guest32802> i.e. the shortest string of bf that it can produce
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17:36:41 <oklopol> you might say just want to compose! wait...
17:36:45 <Gregor> doraemon___: It is not generally possible to prove that a string is the shortest possible.
17:36:53 <elliott> doraemon___: that is provably impossible to do
17:37:08 <doraemon___> I'd like to produce a short, optimized string
17:37:14 <elliott> sure but you can't do the _shortest_
17:37:22 <elliott> but that's what you said :P
17:37:24 <oklopol> elliott: could've been an answer to me as well D:
17:37:27 <Gregor> !bf_txtgen Hello, doraemon___!
17:37:28 <oklopol> "<elliott> doraemon___: that is provably impossible to do"
17:37:35 <EgoBot> 163 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>---.>----.>+++..+++.>-.------------.<<-.>.+++.-----------------.<+.++++++++.++.-.>--...>+.-----------------------. [164]
17:37:53 <elliott> txtgen is not a very good example, it's all yucky and non-deterministic
17:38:04 <elliott> but i think all the best generators are like private projects that havent been released
17:38:10 <elliott> i've heard people doing them in here
17:38:13 <elliott> doraemon___: it uses a genetic algorithm
17:38:24 <elliott> it's prolly just hill-climbing
17:38:43 <oklopol> yeah it's some sort of hill-climbing
17:38:53 <j-invariant> for very small inputs direct: for larger inputs ASCII: for HUGE inputs gzip
17:38:56 <oklopol> i read it once, but don't really remember, it definitely wasn't genetic tho
17:39:07 <doraemon___> My friend was using a method of predicting all the possibilities within a range, like 1...n
17:39:15 <Gregor> doraemon___: bf_txtgen was was written by calamari. See http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen
17:39:20 <doraemon___> It was only 16 chars shorter than my brute force method
17:39:21 <elliott> use genetic algorithms to evolve a bf text generator >:D
17:39:48 <Gregor> Nothing EgoBot does is secret :P
17:39:55 <Gregor> (And most of it isn't mine either)
17:40:06 <doraemon___> So that's probably one of the best methods in your opinion?
17:40:20 <Gregor> It's the best one you can get your hands on right now.
17:40:21 <oklopol> yeah Gregor can't really do anything right so he gets other people to write his code and takes all the credit
17:40:24 <Gregor> I have no doubt that there are better ones.
17:40:30 <oklopol> and sometimes write 1000 page books about this
17:40:32 <elliott> oklopol: he tried to do that with me and cunionfs
17:40:35 <Gregor> oklopol: It's worked pretty well so far.
17:40:39 <elliott> i suspect it's because he's a jew (<-- NOTE THIS IS NOT SERIOUS)
17:40:49 <j-invariant> I conjecture that it's possible to find the optimal brainfuck program for all strings of length below 256
17:41:09 <Gregor> j-invariant: It is in fact /possible/ to find the optimal brainfuck program for any given string, it's just extremely expensive.
17:41:19 <elliott> j-invariant: hey we're actually inching towards a place where I can yell halting problem legitiamtely
17:41:28 <elliott> Gregor: well, with human ingenuity, yes
17:41:38 <oklopol> j-invariant: did you know the busy beaver function hasn't been solved for was it 5 or 6 states and binary?
17:41:43 <Gregor> elliott: Brute-force try every BF program from shortest to longest until you find one that prints the program. QED.
17:41:45 <elliott> but not dumb-mechanically, because that program that runs for 100 years might then print out the right string
17:41:53 <elliott> Gregor: what about ones that don't halt
17:42:01 <elliott> Gregor: that works, if you have infinite time to run them all concurrently
17:42:05 <elliott> j-invariant: right, so with human ingenuity
17:42:07 <oklopol> j-invariant: okay, just that yours seemed kind of astronomical compared to that
17:42:15 <elliott> Gregor's is stupid though :P
17:42:28 <elliott> j-invariant: that could work. maybe. for 64 char strings, sure, not 256. i'd wager.
17:42:46 <j-invariant> oklopol: I don't see a direct connection with busy beaver?
17:42:48 <doraemon___> elliott: I think you need an Oracle to solve the halting problem :p
17:43:01 <oklopol> "<Gregor> j-invariant: It is in fact /possible/ to find the optimal brainfuck program for any given string, it's just extremely expensive." <<< there's not even a semialgorithm for this
17:43:21 <EgoBot> 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [958]
17:43:47 <elliott> doraemon___: damn you larry ellison
17:45:11 <oklopol> j-invariant: there's none, but i doubt there's an essential difference in the hardness of the problem, 256 needs a pretty long bf program, and i doubt you can say *anything* about certain bf programs of really short length
17:45:43 <Sgeo> Have you ever played a game.. it was a web-based game
17:45:47 <oklopol> j-invariant: the ones that happen to be hard
17:46:04 <elliott> gee i can't imagine the name Doraemon being popular
17:46:04 <Sgeo> With battles, etc. Someone with your name (I think) was building a superweapon
17:46:08 <Sgeo> I don't remember the name
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17:46:15 <j-invariant> the shortest difficult brainfuck program I can think of is collatz
17:46:20 <Sgeo> Spacefed I think?
17:46:54 <Sgeo> Space Fed Galactic Conquest
17:47:16 <oklopol> j-invariant: erm, you can implement any tm in bf with a constant size increment can't you?
17:47:47 <j-invariant> What's the shortest brainfuck program that we don't know whether it terminates or not?
17:47:58 <oklopol> say keep state in n first bits in every second bit
17:48:20 <oklopol> erm what, how small is this collatz?
17:48:26 <elliott> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/collatz.b
17:48:29 <j-invariant> should make an automated prover for halting of brainfuck, then use that to kill of boring candidates
17:48:30 <elliott> it takes decimals on input
17:48:32 <Sgeo> It would have been in 2003
17:48:36 <elliott> and have it just iterate through every natural
17:48:45 <elliott> that should be fairly short
17:48:48 <elliott> probably shorter than what's there even
17:49:17 <doraemon___> Sgeo: funny how 2003 seems like such a long time ago now...
17:49:40 <oklopol> isn't that collatz only long because of parsing input
17:49:53 <oklopol> shouldn't be more than a few characters, division isn't very hard
17:50:53 <oklopol> but anyway, i find it unlikely that the shortest program your halting prover gets stuck in makes any sense at all, it's just a program with a random characters that happens to not have trivial behavior.
17:52:10 <oklopol> bf might certainly be especially slow at hitting something like that
17:52:39 <elliott> yeah if you made it just iterate, not print, and not take input, that collatz could be tiny
17:53:05 <oklopol> i'll make an arbitrary conjecture: bf programs are easy to prove up up to size 38
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17:53:41 <elliott> oklopol: how do you define SIZE
17:53:54 <Gregor> How do you define "38"?
17:54:00 <Gregor> How do you define "I'll"?
17:54:03 <elliott> oklopol: so can we have N-input, N-output functions
17:54:05 <oklopol> Gregor: the obvious way, if there's a dispute, i'm right, you're wrong
17:54:06 <elliott> oklopol: specifically, 0-input ones
17:54:34 <oklopol> elliott: what, in these bf programs?
17:54:56 <oklopol> oh i totally didn't see that coming
17:55:20 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGIii_eTOk <<< why exactly did i have this retarded shit in my browser?
17:55:38 <oklopol> elliott: i don't like how 0 io looks like, syntactically
17:55:44 <oklopol> otherwise i'd have no potato with them
17:55:51 <elliott> oklopol: sure, but it makes cled so less ugly...
17:56:02 <oklopol> maybe they are allowed in the language, but you can't actually write any?
17:56:05 <elliott> you can have the ast in an invalid state, and all it does is sit there looking slightly ugly
17:56:17 <elliott> oklopol: well let's put it this way
17:56:23 <elliott> oklopol: you're going to add N+1-output functions right?
17:56:29 <elliott> do you know who thinks 0 isn't a natural?
17:56:34 <elliott> and do you know what set you'd be using
17:56:45 <elliott> you, if you do that, are hideous
17:56:53 <oklopol> maybe i am hideous, you haven't seen me
17:57:31 <oklopol> well i was pretty sexy in that pic so i guess i have nothing more to say
17:57:44 <elliott> OK DUDE N-INPUT-OUTPUT BITCH
17:57:57 <oklopol> no syntax for them must ever exist.
17:58:06 <elliott> oklopol: um you're adding syntax for N-output
17:58:26 <oklopol> yeah, just whitespace separate the outputs
17:58:41 <elliott> oklopol: it's for the greater good dude
17:58:50 <elliott> but you could also write clue code like this
17:58:57 <oklopol> MAYBE A SEPARATE SYNTAX FOR WRITING ZERO ARG FUNCTIONS
17:59:01 <elliott> this_Is_A_Name~{: . hello->[1 2
17:59:17 <elliott> because you're a good clueist
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17:59:27 <elliott> same reason you wouldn't do "lol ~ {. -> }", not only is it useless
17:59:47 <elliott> oklopol: alternatively: remove N-inputs and just have every function take one input
18:00:20 <oklopol> okay have your fucking party, i don't actually give a shit about whether {. -> } is legal
18:00:46 <oklopol> {. -> 1} will be totally useful with hardcore functions
18:00:50 <oklopol> by which i mean higher-order
18:00:52 <Gregor> wtfbbq is going on here :P
18:00:57 <elliott> oklopol: i have the perfect way to write it
18:01:08 <elliott> oklopol: .-> is the lambda arrow's retarded cousin
18:01:25 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:01:35 <elliott> oklopol: anyway actually implementing that will have to wait for you to add n-outputs, so :P
18:01:44 <elliott> and force you to replace, not delete
18:01:48 <elliott> why didn't i think of that
18:01:54 <elliott> because inserting a branch is like liquid pain
18:01:56 * oklopol touches with red thing in mouth
18:04:16 <oklopol> for some reason i know that word in english, but i remember i didn't know it in finnish until a friend of mine whose dad is a dentist told me
18:04:23 <oklopol> it's like the most useless thing ever
18:04:36 <elliott> http://theorymine.co.uk/ haha what
18:05:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Drøvel drøvel drøvel).
18:05:59 <oklopol> i would certainly like to know what they look like
18:06:05 <j-invariant> what's the best automated termination checker for brainfuck?
18:06:29 <elliott> j-invariant: there is none :P
18:06:37 <elliott> it's often trivial to prove
18:06:40 <j-invariant> probaly just running the damn thing for 100000 iterations
18:06:51 <elliott> e.g. [ on an even number with balanced > and < means it loops forever
18:07:04 <elliott> well. with no nested loops
18:07:44 <oklopol> yeah [-] is a counterexample
18:08:16 <elliott> actually an automated termination checker for bf would be fun
18:08:41 <oklopol> well there are many obvious things you can do, like look at which cells it actually changed, and wait for loop
18:08:56 <j-invariant> if you just code all the obvious rules that would be a good start
18:09:09 <elliott> there's an O(1) way for certain loops
18:09:11 <j-invariant> then you can inspect the programs it doesn't get, and learn more sophistcated rules from them
18:09:14 <elliott> that can tell you it doesn't halt
18:09:21 <elliott> based on extended euclidean algorithm
18:09:24 <elliott> this is assuming 8-bit cells
18:09:33 <elliott> it could easily be modified to spit out a certificate to prove it
18:09:53 <oklopol> j-invariant: nice idea, but usually the first one you inspect will be completely out of your reach
18:10:08 <j-invariant> oklopol: I doubt that, why do you say that? Think it will be a collatz type thing?
18:10:16 <oklopol> my experience is mostly based on trying to find the smallest aperiodic set of wang tiles in the summer
18:10:17 <j-invariant> oklopol: if so, then that's my goal! I want to find that program
18:10:40 <oklopol> we ran computer simulations, and when a tile set didn't work, we looked at it manually
18:10:41 <Phantom_Hoover> "This really captured my imagination and I'm delighted to buy TheoryMine's first Theorem. What an inventive use of Scotland's expertise in artificial intelligence to create such a novel and fun product". — TheoryMine testimonials.
18:10:56 <oklopol> and you could never say anything about them, after hours, you just ended up running the computer program for longer...
18:10:58 * Sgeo decides that The Onion Audio news suck
18:11:05 <Sgeo> It's the only sucky Onion thing
18:11:24 <elliott> Sgeo: the onion is good for the headlines.
18:11:25 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly she is personally responsible for the suckishness of the computing curriculum.
18:11:27 <elliott> the articles are superfluous.
18:11:30 <j-invariant> oklopol: to my knowledge, every set of wang tiles except one is based on substitution
18:11:41 <oklopol> well, there was one that had something the program didn't catch: there was a way to convert it into a smaller one that would've had to be aperiodic as well
18:11:42 <j-invariant> and the one that's not is based on irrational numbers
18:11:43 <elliott> j-invariant: proposed first step in the halting checker: see if esotope produces a simple infinite loop for it
18:11:48 <elliott> j-invariant: it has a bunch of checks for that, i believe
18:11:49 <oklopol> j-invariant: yeah, that smallest one is not based on substitution
18:11:52 <elliott> j-invariant: proposed first step in the halting checker: see if esotope
18:11:55 <elliott> 233 elif len(result) == 1 and result[0][0] == result[0][1]:
18:11:56 <elliott> 234 if result[0][0] is None:
18:12:04 <oklopol> and that's made by my employer
18:12:04 <elliott> can't find the extended euclidean thing
18:12:12 <oklopol> which is why i was doing that in the sumemr
18:12:43 <elliott> j-invariant: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/5bdae1176f46/bfc/opt/simpleloop.py
18:12:51 <oklopol> (actually that's not completely true, since his colleaque changed a small detail to get one less tile, but that is a less interesting story)
18:12:58 <elliott> 90 # let w be the overflow value, which is 256 for char etc.
18:12:58 <elliott> 91 # then there are three cases in the following code:
18:12:59 <elliott> 92 # i = 0; for (j = 0; i != x; ++j) i += m;
18:13:02 <elliott> 94 # 1. if m = 0, it loops forever.
18:13:04 <elliott> 95 # 2. otherwise, the condition j * m = x (mod w) must hold.
18:13:06 <elliott> 96 # let u * m + v * w = gcd(m,w), and
18:13:08 <elliott> 97 # 1) if x is not a multiple of gcd(m,w), it loops forever.
18:13:10 <elliott> 98 # 2) otherwise it terminates and j = u * (x / gcd(m,w)).
18:13:14 <elliott> 100 # we can calculate u and gcd(m,w) in the compile time, but
18:13:16 <elliott> 101 # x is not (yet). so we shall add simple check for now.
18:13:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also http://dream.inf.ed.ac.uk/events/automatheo-2010/papers/automatheo2010_submission_1.pdf
18:14:04 <elliott> j-invariant: how is it that all these systems that seem to do better than coq get overlooked, btw?
18:14:08 <elliott> j-invariant: HOL and Isabelle and stuff
18:14:14 <oklopol> j-invariant: yeah, the ones that people have been able to prove things about come from somewhere; that's exactly my point, when they don't come from somewhere, you're screwed
18:14:32 <elliott> j-invariant: I can understand Mizar, which has a very comprehensive development, being overlooked for being proprietary and non-constructive; and Automath too for similar reasons and also being old
18:14:54 <oklopol> for wang tiles, it seems possible that the best solution actually makes sense, since we're at 13, and 9 has been proven not to contain aperiodics afair
18:16:02 <oklopol> elliott: oh that was for balanced unnested?
18:16:12 <oklopol> well obviously that's trivial, since you just have to look at the evolution of the current cell
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18:17:46 <oklopol> last week i had 28 hour days, this week they seem to be more like 20
18:17:47 <j-invariant> elliott: help me write a brainfuck termination checker?
18:18:12 <elliott> j-invariant: sure ... as long as it's not TOO hard
18:18:18 <elliott> j-invariant: what proof language should the certificates be in?
18:18:40 <j-invariant> elliott: I always have in mind the version where all the cells can contain infinitely large integers
18:18:55 <elliott> j-invariant: i dislike that version intensely
18:18:59 <oklopol> either that or binary, everything else is retarded
18:19:01 <elliott> j-invariant: that collatz uses 8-bit cells anyway
18:19:15 <elliott> j-invariant: most programs are written for 8-bit cells anyway
18:19:16 <j-invariant> it's just the 8bit thing is so bloody confusing
18:19:22 <oklopol> except holding up to 37, and wrapping to 19
18:19:24 <j-invariant> I can never get my head around that wrap around stuff
18:19:30 <elliott> if we have arbitrary integers,
18:19:33 <elliott> then the tape must be only two long
18:19:50 <elliott> j-invariant: the nice thing about 8-bit integers
18:19:58 <elliott> j-invariant: is that they make the work a bit easier
18:20:03 <elliott> because the tape sort of segments them out
18:20:10 <elliott> 8-bit non-negative integers
18:20:18 <elliott> when writing a termination checker
18:20:23 <oklopol> that's just plain not true!
18:20:32 <elliott> oklopol: you can't do that fancy euclidean stuff with arbitraries!
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18:20:38 <oklopol> everything gets really hairy, a mathematician would never have wrap 256
18:21:07 <elliott> well a boolfuck termination checker is a lot more boring
18:21:10 <oklopol> elliott: umm, for infinites, that algo doesn't even need modular arithmetic
18:21:15 <elliott> because there's less existing programs to poke it at
18:21:40 <oklopol> that is, you don't even *need* that fancy euclidean stuff
18:22:00 <oklopol> infinite things are usually much simpler than finite ones
18:22:04 <elliott> how can i feed mandelbrot.b do it
18:22:41 <oklopol> you won't be able to prove anything about the halting of mandelbrot.b anyway
18:23:24 <oklopol> i've heard j-invariant sucks at coding
18:23:37 <oklopol> from him, like, umm, yesterday?
18:23:46 <oklopol> and if he doesn't know, who will
18:24:07 <oklopol> don't even get me started about you
18:24:26 <oklopol> you maybe the best, but i ask you: best at *what*?
18:24:57 <oklopol> oh yeah i forgot what we were talking about
18:27:18 <oklopol> does it play well with latex
18:27:21 <j-invariant> 18:22 < oklopol> you won't be able to prove anything about the halting of mandelbrot.b anyway
18:27:31 <elliott> oklopol: it always uses a condom, why do you ask
18:27:39 <elliott> j-invariant: i think you're a little too enthusiastic about the powers of automated proving
18:28:02 <oklopol> j-invariant: i don't even remember the algorithm
18:28:05 <j-invariant> elliott: isn't it basically for(int i = 0; i < 100; i++) { do stuff }
18:28:27 <oklopol> then it's very possible you will be able to prove stuff about that
18:28:29 <elliott> j-invariant: I think we should use esotope's code partly
18:28:32 <elliott> j-invariant: it has this intermediate format
18:28:47 <elliott> does a lot of constant folding, adds arithmetic expressions
18:28:52 <elliott> even detects some infinite loops
18:28:57 <elliott> that would be a lot easier to prove on i feel
18:33:29 <elliott> j-invariant: so um... what certificate lang
18:34:06 <j-invariant> I would use Coq but that's just because I have it installed
18:34:07 <elliott> j-invariant: i don't know :D
18:34:16 <elliott> j-invariant: auto-generating Coq sounds a bit painful?
18:34:26 <elliott> j-invariant: I think generating lambda expressions is probably the "easiest" thing
18:34:29 <elliott> rather than automating tactics
18:35:05 <elliott> j-invariant: so i really don't know :)
18:35:30 <j-invariant> probably just program the whole thing in Ltac
18:36:10 <elliott> j-invariant: I was thinking it'd be a Haskell program
18:36:19 <elliott> j-invariant: of course we _could_ just not generate any certificates, but that's much less fun
18:36:36 <oklopol> or you could think about that when your program is ready up to that point
18:36:40 <j-invariant> elliott: otherwise there may be a bug in the program
18:36:48 <elliott> oklopol: um it's actually relevant from the start
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18:36:54 <elliott> oklopol: it has to use certificates from the very first line
18:37:05 <elliott> because the certificates must be generated as part of the process
18:37:08 <elliott> rather than after the fact
18:37:43 <elliott> oklopol: because that's how these things work?
18:37:49 <elliott> otherwise it's duplicated work
18:40:04 <oklopol> maybe sure the actual program will have to write certificates from the start, but i don't see why you'd need to know what proof language you'll be using from the start when writing the halting checker
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18:42:20 <elliott> oklopol: because with certificate stuff, every single bit of reasoning involves a certificate
18:42:28 <elliott> if foo then doesn't halt else dunno
18:42:46 <elliott> if foo then (doesn't halt, proof that it doesn't halt in this specific case using general theorem involving "foo") else dunno
18:53:39 <elliott> i'm going to have to make my emacs font smaller
18:53:43 <oklopol> so what you're saying is the finding of the proofs is not actually harder compared to the proving
18:54:03 <elliott> oklopol: the point is that you can't really do just one.
18:54:13 <elliott> but yes, doing certificates _is_ actually pretty hard
18:55:12 <oklopol> well given that j-invariant complains about how hard it is to prove trivial things about every second day, it's hard not to believe that
18:55:13 <Sgeo> Maybe I should eat breakfast
18:55:25 <oklopol> all i'm saying is you don't have to do the search for the proof in a safe way+
18:55:47 <elliott> oklopol: also, yes, proving trivial things is hard in Coq etc.
18:55:54 <j-invariant> no it's not hard proving trivial things is it?
18:56:03 <elliott> oklopol has a very lax definition of trivial.
18:56:05 <j-invariant> I thought I was complaining abuot not having support for certain features
18:56:08 <oklopol> hard to say without knowing what kind of stuff you're going to do
18:56:26 <elliott> i don't think modelling category theory in type theory is
18:56:49 <oklopol> j-invariant: well maybe you've once complained about something and it sounded like you were complaining about something that was trivial, but actually you meant there was no nice way to do it or something
18:57:05 <oklopol> and yeah, i have a very lax definition of trivial
18:57:53 <oklopol> say existence of infinitely many primes is trivial
18:58:09 <elliott> j-invariant: why doesn't emacs always have two copies of every buffer
18:58:12 <oklopol> well maybe i would say that's simple
19:00:11 <elliott> j-invariant: have you ever used teco, i think everyone should use teco
19:00:59 <oklopol> it's possible that in the case of bf programs, there isn't really much of a search stage
19:01:54 <oklopol> but hard to say without knowing what specific things you're going to prove the halting of
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19:03:17 <elliott> j-invariant: it's great, because instead of using a program to program
19:03:20 <elliott> j-invariant: you program to program
19:03:26 <elliott> every editor operation is a little mini program :)
19:03:32 <elliott> now you have two problems!
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19:07:21 <elliott> oklopol: writing cled is so hard why do you do this to me
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19:19:22 <elliott> j-invariant: write a program whose only function is to output a proof that it works correctly
19:19:27 <elliott> i.e., only ever outputs correct proofs
19:21:23 <j-invariant> elliott: the more sophisticated an automatical thoerem prover for brainfuck termination is, the further away turings liar program is
19:21:43 <j-invariant> e.g. a really simple termination checker could be reimplemented in brainfuck and lied to in maybe, 3000 symbols.
19:21:52 <j-invariant> But a very advanced one would take 10000 symbols
19:21:59 <elliott> j-invariant: i want to see that program :D
19:23:26 <j-invariant> it would be an implementation fo the termination checker looking at this program AND a quine
19:23:46 <j-invariant> and you fit the quine into the termination checker and do the opposite of what it says
19:24:28 <oklopol> j-invariant: that's not necessarily true, since the formal proof system could be implemented in 5000 symbols, making all your further efforts pointless
19:24:30 <j-invariant> It is a simple matter to make a stronger termination checker which can detect the termination of this pathological program
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19:24:59 <j-invariant> oklopol: oh you mean godel instead of turing: Okay, I get it
19:25:30 <oklopol> j-invariant: yeah it's a simple matter, as long as you don't expect to find a proof in the same formal system
19:26:07 <j-invariant> this is only termination certificates though -- the actual termination checker is written in a turing machine
19:26:21 <j-invariant> elliott: hey we should just cut the crap and write the termination checker in brainfuck
19:26:34 <elliott> j-invariant: oh yeah that sounds like a barrel of fun laughs
19:26:43 <elliott> but i have an even better idea to do first
19:27:12 <elliott> maybe have all my skin removed slowly before my internal organs are devoured by an angry goat, and then my skeleton is set on fire
19:27:37 <elliott> j-invariant: re i don't get it
19:27:42 <elliott> j-invariant: a program X, with only one function
19:27:53 <elliott> j-invariant: when X is invoked, it returns a proof certificate P
19:28:03 <elliott> j-invariant: this P is a proof of the statement that X works correctly
19:28:14 <elliott> j-invariant: example definition of "works correctly":
19:28:27 <elliott> where Ps is the set of proofs that X outputs
19:28:36 * Sgeo wonders how easy or difficult it is to make a self-hosting language
19:28:52 <elliott> so basically, it outputs a proof P that proves that every proof X outputs (of which there is only one, P) is correct
19:29:00 <Sgeo> I guess part of it really does require making a compiler, doesn't it?
19:29:14 <elliott> you could run it all on top of python
19:29:18 <elliott> like you run it all on top of x86
19:30:23 <j-invariant> Sgeo: it's a good feeling though when you delete the original
19:30:24 <Sgeo> But.. that's not that interesting, is it?
19:30:33 <Sgeo> j-invariant, right, that's what I want
19:30:45 <elliott> Sgeo: it's a good feeling when you delete the x86
19:30:50 <elliott> after creating a processor for your language
19:31:00 <elliott> after making sure your language is hosted independently of physics
19:31:08 <elliott> basically the idea is to replace everything with your language
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19:32:12 <elliott> j-invariant: deleting the original though, i would never do that
19:32:15 <elliott> what if i lose my interpreter binary
19:32:36 <elliott> that means all compilers have a contagious bug
19:32:38 <elliott> accidental trusting trust :D
19:33:00 <Sgeo> What did the original for gcc use?
19:33:09 <elliott> umm, they just used other C compilers.
19:33:17 <elliott> that's the advantage of doing it for a mostly portable language :P
19:33:35 <j-invariant> and check that compilation gives you back the compiler
19:33:35 <elliott> j-invariant: *machine code
19:33:42 <j-invariant> that's what to do if no programming languages exist
19:34:06 <elliott> j-invariant: assembly is a language
19:34:32 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezzh4/why_not/c1canyy?context=1 THIS IS THE BEST WORST IDEA EVER
19:34:46 <elliott> lol @ the recipe below that
19:34:49 <Sgeo> Does compiling to LLVM make sense?
19:35:13 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezzh4/why_not/c1cbsrt <-- haha
19:35:16 <elliott> writing x86 assembly is easier
19:35:49 <elliott> j-invariant: one obsidian in the topright
19:35:52 <Sgeo> elliott, are you serious?
19:35:56 <elliott> j-invariant: tnt to the right of that
19:35:56 <Sgeo> x86 is easier?
19:35:59 <elliott> j-invariant: diamond to the right of that
19:36:10 <elliott> llvm asm is pretty complex :P
19:36:14 <elliott> j-invariant: then below that
19:36:21 <Sgeo> Compilers compile into asm? Wouldn't machine code make more sense?
19:36:21 <elliott> j-invariant: a golden apple on the left
19:36:29 <elliott> Sgeo: sure, gcc outputs gnu assembly syntax
19:36:35 <elliott> Sgeo: machine code is just as easy, though :P
19:36:40 <elliott> if you define the instructions as names in your program
19:36:45 <elliott> that's like a ghetto assembler
19:37:39 <Sgeo> If I compile to x86, then certain things will be platform-dependent
19:37:44 <Sgeo> Erm, OS-dependent
19:38:03 <elliott> syscalls are easier than anything else anyway.
19:38:07 <elliott> you could just compile to C.
19:38:16 <elliott> Sgeo: llvm assembly is quite platform specific anyway
19:38:40 <Sgeo> elliott, you won't be able to try my super-cool language that is poorly designed and only exists to prove to myself that I can write a self-hosting language.
19:39:04 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm on Windows, and not particularly likely to switch to Linux to do this
19:39:14 <elliott> i don't even know if windows has syscalls
19:39:18 <augur> continuation-based backtracking! \o/
19:39:19 <elliott> and if they do calling them will probably be a bitch
19:39:23 <elliott> you could use dos-style interrupts
19:39:26 <elliott> but those are a bitch to use
19:39:29 <elliott> also, all the assemblers suck
19:39:35 <elliott> lol lol lol @ the idea of doing this on windows
19:40:31 <fizzie> Windows has syscalls but you rarely ever see them; you just call library functions instead.
19:40:45 <elliott> don't they have that fucked up calling convention
19:41:37 <fizzie> It's stdcall, which is a bit strange; callee cleans up the stack.
19:42:12 <elliott> fizzie: wait, so C functions re-push their arguments?
19:42:17 <elliott> to get popped right after?
19:42:19 <oklopol> augur: that's so yesterday
19:42:20 <elliott> that's the most brilliantly stupid thing ... ever
19:42:28 <augur> oklopol: yes but NOT FOR ME
19:42:44 <oklopol> didn't you get it yesterday?
19:43:06 <augur> well, i thought i did
19:43:09 <elliott> augur: it's also inefficient
19:43:09 <augur> but i just wrote some code
19:43:14 <augur> and figured it out
19:43:16 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know what that means. In foo(a,b,c) the caller does push c; push b; push a; call foo; and foo itself takes care of popping the arguments. (Unlike cdecl where the caller would adjust the stack back.)
19:43:17 <augur> elliott: oh sure, thats not the point
19:43:26 <augur> the point is to understand what people have thought of
19:43:31 <oklopol> then it's not yesterday, then it's today
19:43:42 <oklopol> elliott: you know who else is inefficient?
19:43:44 <elliott> fizzie: that seems actually saner for some things
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19:44:15 <fizzie> It looks a bit neater; though it then breaks worse than cdecl if the caller and callee disagree about the number of arguments.
19:44:24 <fizzie> And I think vararg functions are more messy somehow.
19:44:35 <augur> elliott: you werent prepubescent when you were 13 either
19:44:40 <augur> but thats not the point
19:44:47 <j-invariant> question: I have some coal and I want to make glass....
19:44:56 <augur> well im guessing you're not weird
19:44:57 <j-invariant> but should I use it to make glass or use it to find more coal?
19:45:02 <oklopol> liking 15yo is not really a philia
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19:45:17 <augur> for oklopol, its reality!
19:45:42 <elliott> j-invariant: how much coal do you have
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19:45:53 <elliott> j-invariant: i mean obviously you need to keep a lot for torches and shit
19:46:16 <elliott> j-invariant: well, 1 coal can make 8 glass out of 8 sand
19:46:27 <elliott> j-invariant: but you need torches to explore, and coal is useful besides
19:46:38 <elliott> j-invariant: getting e.g. 64 coal should not take long at all -- are you mining properly?
19:47:14 <oklopol> j-invariant: coal is very easy to find, just keep a couple boxes full of it to make sure you don't accidentally run out
19:47:36 <elliott> j-invariant: how are you mining
19:47:47 <elliott> many, many stacks of 64. but only oklopol does that.
19:47:47 <j-invariant> elliott: several different ways, to find out what works well
19:47:51 <elliott> you accumulate tons of it naturally usually
19:48:00 <j-invariant> The most coal I ever found was just by exploring, and noticing it on the sides of hills
19:48:07 <elliott> j-invariant: use the wiki, really :)
19:48:13 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Mining_Techniques lists all the viable mining techniques
19:48:19 <elliott> j-invariant: apart from that -- you do spelunk right?
19:48:38 <elliott> j-invariant: going into caves
19:48:40 <j-invariant> btw I also started a quarry because I wanted obsidian
19:48:58 <fizzie> My coal-box only has 7*64. :/
19:48:59 <Sgeo> j-invariant, if you want obsidian, find some lava
19:49:25 <elliott> j-invariant: really, don't be ashamed of reading the wiki, it's not fun to be all "oh how can i get coal" :)
19:49:37 <elliott> and since the game has no real objective... if it's not fun, just look it up
19:50:37 <j-invariant> I was just wondering if I should use it to set up somet mine or just create glass now
19:55:13 <j-invariant> elliott: I should build a spiral staircase that goes right down to lava
19:55:20 <Vorpal> j-invariant, check the wiki. Reading the wiki is fun.
19:55:42 <Vorpal> j-invariant, a straight one works fine? Though there aren't lava lakes everywhere. They are lava lakes after all
19:55:46 <oklopol> i doubt i have a full box of coal even on my local
19:55:59 <Vorpal> (with emphasis on lake)
19:56:06 <elliott> j-invariant: i've built a staircase that goes down to bedrock zomg :P
19:56:10 <oklopol> of course, i use it about once every 5 steps
19:56:57 <Vorpal> elliott, movecraft is fun btw. Sad it doesn't handle redstone, chests or doors yet
19:57:46 <oklopol> on esoserver you can just mine straight down because you can't die :(
19:57:47 <j-invariant> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Quarry <-- dunno if this is a troll article or not
19:57:50 <Vorpal> or rotating the boat/shift/aircraft/whatever for turning
19:58:12 <oklopol> WHERE'S THE MINECRAFT IN THAT?
19:58:47 <oklopol> to neither, continuation to what i said earlier
19:59:41 <Vorpal> j-invariant, well if you are mining for cobble (which probably only happens when you are doing megascale structures) they a quarry can work well
19:59:51 <Vorpal> if you want ores then they are useless
20:00:36 <elliott> do hostile mobs spawn in trees?
20:00:59 <elliott> j-invariant: the Cube is basically a gigantic quarry
20:01:08 <j-invariant> elliott: I have a treehouse and a zombie sometiems spawns next to the tree ontop
20:01:19 <elliott> yeah my treehouse is open air :D
20:01:28 <Vorpal> j-invariant, do they spawn on leaves or on logs only?
20:01:43 <j-invariant> I have a layer of mud ontop of my house to grow trees on
20:02:40 <elliott> if a creeper spawns in the fucking tree i will die
20:02:44 <elliott> j-invariant: mud? you mean dirt? :P
20:03:05 <Vorpal> elliott, add some glass walls?
20:03:12 <Vorpal> elliott, or light up the tree?
20:03:19 <elliott> Vorpal: um this is first night
20:03:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is an easy way to protect yourself!
20:04:23 <elliott> [[In Beta, lava is less reactive with horizontal water flows. It also has a chance of forming redstone ore when water runs on top of it [citation needed]. Lava pools without a source will degrade to dirt after a given time period.]]
20:04:42 <elliott> lol, skeleton in the trees >_<
20:04:48 <Vorpal> also once movecraft gets fixed I think a yacht might be a cool living place. But at the moment that is not viable.
20:05:06 <elliott> or do the monsters always seem to be closer
20:05:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> [[In Beta, lava is less reactive with horizontal water flows. It also has a chance of forming redstone ore when water runs on top of it [citation needed]. Lava pools without a source will degrade to dirt after a given time period.]] <-- that sounds made up
20:05:26 <Vorpal> elliott, the dirt think I'm pretty sure is wrong for example
20:05:36 <elliott> j-invariant: just make bukkits
20:05:51 <elliott> "When you stay in Lava for about 1-2 seconds, your character makes noises which appear to go along to "When the Saints Go Marching In.""
20:05:55 <Vorpal> j-invariant, well can't be done without a bucket
20:06:02 <elliott> iw onder if that's intentional
20:06:02 <Vorpal> elliott, dude that is a troll
20:06:11 <elliott> your definition of troll sucks
20:06:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well a joke should be funny. That is just pathetic
20:06:36 <elliott> oh god why do the spiders sound so fucking close
20:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you have no sense of humour
20:07:02 <oklopol> i thought he had too much of it
20:07:16 <oklopol> like a sixth sense of humor
20:07:19 <Vorpal> oklopol, well maybe he has an anti-sense of humor
20:07:45 <oklopol> do you copy words from other people too? i was just about to correct humor to humour because you used that
20:08:00 <oklopol> you go and spoil it by now having used both
20:08:32 <elliott> how did you get on top of that tree
20:08:32 <cheater99> i just totally instantiated my own oklopol
20:09:45 <elliott> this theory is backed by EVIDENCE
20:09:46 <cheater99> what sort of gay hating is that now
20:09:55 <oklopol> i'm only useful for 7 things, and 6 of them i can do on this channel.
20:10:19 <elliott> is it not? what is the seventh then
20:10:59 <Sgeo> I'm useful for, um
20:11:12 <cheater99> yea but he can't do that on the channel
20:11:38 <elliott> [[4.) Continue the process of mining a layer, and then another, until you hit bedrock. This may take a few days of vigorous playing to accomplish, but your earnings will make it well worth it. Most quarries yield an average of 150 stacks of coal, 50 stacks of iron ore, 20 stacks of gold ore, 5 stacks of obsidian, and a maximum of 1 stack of diamond gems, though these results vary with the width, depth and location of your quarry.[cita
20:11:38 <elliott> tion needed] (see discussion section)]]
20:11:54 <elliott> j-invariant: 1 bit of coal = 8 output; 1 bit of sand = 1 output
20:12:04 <elliott> j-invariant: N sand -> N glass, requiring ceil(N/8) coal
20:12:04 <j-invariant> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Smeltingmenu.png
20:12:12 <elliott> j-invariant: that is in progress
20:12:16 <elliott> as you can plainly see by the arrow
20:13:11 <Sgeo> Why would you use coal to smelt?
20:13:26 <Sgeo> Wood works and is renewable
20:13:57 <Sgeo> Note: Just because what I said is true, doesn't make it a good idea.
20:15:14 <elliott> j-invariant: Sgeo is being stuepid, coal is far more efficient & practical to use for smelting.
20:15:26 <elliott> j-invariant: See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Furnace#Fuel_efficiency.
20:15:57 <Sgeo> Until the day you have to go on tremendously long minecart rides to get coal
20:15:58 <elliott> ofc if you have some lava... :D
20:16:09 <elliott> j-invariant: a bucket of it, yes, it also destroys the bucket
20:16:11 <elliott> j-invariant: hideously impractical
20:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Wood works and is renewable ← only Vorpal cares about this, and he couldn't be bothered.
20:19:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=20891
20:20:04 <elliott> Oh, has the Sustainable project been canceled, Vorpal?
20:20:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr guy wipes cave sounds due to being a pussy.
20:20:27 <Vorpal> elliott, no more cancelled than most of your code project s:P
20:20:31 <elliott> YOU TOO COULD FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS
20:20:43 <Vorpal> elliott, but it is suspended
20:20:53 <Vorpal> elliott, simply because lava is no longer renewable
20:21:02 <Vorpal> there is no renewable light source any more
20:21:17 <elliott> Is that where it was going to be?
20:21:18 <Vorpal> but what about making it burn in the first place?
20:21:40 <Vorpal> I don't know exact coords
20:21:46 <Vorpal> just how to walk from 4000,4000 to get there
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20:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone tell me in which series Red Dwarf ceases to be worth watching.
20:22:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The eighth series is meant to be a bit naff.
20:25:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> getting coal is easy <-- well, sgeo is right. some day you will exhaust all coal in the area near your base. This will however take a very long time. Probably months of mining in that area non-stop.
20:25:40 <Vorpal> in practise I doubt it will be a problem unless you keep a word for that long time
20:25:44 <Vorpal> and I doubt that about you
20:27:27 <nooga> i've just finished 50x50x3 hall under the sea
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20:27:59 <Vorpal> elliott, those cave sounds are nice. They remind me of a cross between myst and nwn somehow.
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20:28:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOW GOES GRAVITY.LISP.
20:29:03 <elliott> nooga: That's less than 128x128x128.
20:29:13 <elliott> nooga: Wait, x3? As in, only 3 tall?
20:29:39 <elliott> nooga: Sgeo: Buy the damn game and do drudge work on the Cube.
20:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> If we have enough drudge workers, we can just mine it out by hand!
20:30:07 <elliott> Sgeo: http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/
20:30:28 <Vorpal> nooga, if not, it isn't awesome enough for the roof
20:30:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Say a miner can reach the bottom of any square of map in 100 seconds.
20:30:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Say you have 10 people on the job.
20:31:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There are 16,384 such squares to do.
20:31:32 <nooga> Vorpal: deep under the sea
20:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, elliott's slightly Freudian construction project.
20:31:41 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that 45 hours per person?
20:31:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr 45 and a half straight hours.
20:31:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what about 128 workers?
20:32:01 <elliott> j-invariant: A 128 wide, 128 high, 128 deep cube in the ocean, made out of glass, lit by lava.
20:32:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's Freudian about it.
20:32:09 <Vorpal> nooga, so not at the sea bottom?
20:32:21 <Vorpal> nooga, not awesome enough :P
20:32:26 <elliott> My genitalia are not cuboid.
20:32:31 <Vorpal> nooga, everyone dug under the sea in terrains
20:32:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But yeah, even with 10 people working on it constantly and several breakings of the laws of physics, it would take 45 hours to mine out the Cube.
20:32:52 <elliott> What I'm saying is: TNT kit.
20:32:59 <elliott> nooga: then why did you make it
20:33:15 <nooga> my during the hours that took me to dig it
20:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK, but you're clearly compensating for the fact that you're 4 feet tall IRL.
20:33:28 <nooga> my gf got really mad at me
20:33:38 <nooga> and i didn't earn a penny
20:33:43 <nooga> because coding is so boring
20:33:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is true.
20:34:12 <elliott> j-invariant: MORE AWE AT THE CUBE PLZ
20:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> nooga, everyone dug under the sea in terrains ← terrains?
20:34:32 <elliott> There should be underground biomes.
20:34:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, good questions
20:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there is that thing which fiddles with the terrain gen's internal parameters
20:34:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think I'm a bit pluralish today
20:35:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BiomeTerrain or whatever?
20:35:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've wanted to try that for a while now. It looks way better than Notch's generator.
20:35:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Generates much larger, smoother biomes and the like. Lots of tweakable parameters.
20:35:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it is /slightly/ better
20:35:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That photo I linked of a highlands scene (saying it was a good argument for Better Grass) was made with it.
20:35:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you define terrain to "solid blocks" then it makes sense :P
20:36:16 <elliott> It was literally days ago.
20:36:29 <Vorpal> elliott, link to that photo? I don't remember seeing that photo
20:37:24 <elliott> "I'm the sort of person who's done the Red Cross First Aid course twice and so I knew what to do and was almost immediately compressing his chest to the rhythm of the Bee Gees' Staying Alive with the phone operator counting along with me. No, I'm not being funny. The rhythm of that song is ideal for CPR."
20:37:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Never perform CPR unless you do that.
20:38:08 <elliott> [[Alternatively, it's the same BMP as Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust" and Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall Part II".]]
20:38:20 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah, we've cleared, like, 10 lines of sea :P
20:38:23 <elliott> like moses, except really slow
20:38:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: You said it looked too flat, IIRC.
20:38:29 <elliott> j-invariant: and excavation is... slow
20:38:34 <elliott> j-invariant: as in, 10 lines of 126 long
20:38:40 <elliott> j-invariant: about 10 deep each
20:38:51 <elliott> j-invariant: i doubt you have
20:39:05 <elliott> j-invariant: that's about 10*10*126 = 12600 blocks placed
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20:40:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://imgur.com/om0iL This is fully functional, with CraftBook.
20:40:24 <elliott> Discuss superiority to Vorpal's gate.
20:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly superior. Also irrelevant if Vorpal doesn't have CraftBook.
20:41:45 <elliott> It's on his test server and he was talking about craftbook before.
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20:43:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In which Notch actually responds to feedback: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/ezpw5/lots_of_new_info_including_cake/c1c7grn
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20:43:56 <j-invariant> whe n you break a bit of glass you don't get it back :(
20:44:07 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lsFN5DgoLc This is the silliest thing.
20:45:16 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv6GVDu46ls I hypothesise that sound mods are inherently hilarious.
20:49:29 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/drvm8/my_experiment_with_modifying_the_minecraft_sound/c12gnct ;_;
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21:01:35 <elliott> now use that to compute gcd
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21:11:50 <Vorpal> elliott, is the server down?
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21:12:46 <Vorpal> ineiros, are you skyping?
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21:27:15 <Vorpal> ineiros, what the hell are you doing?
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21:47:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is that supposed to be funny? It isn't really.
21:48:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, your own fault for not making it funny to begin with
21:49:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, besides movecraft got updated. Now doors are supposed to work (nothing done on chests yet though)
21:49:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also submarines
21:49:23 <elliott> j-invariant: help me design my language :P
21:49:54 <elliott> j-invariant: a language! btw have you read any more of the axiom info?
21:50:20 <elliott> j-invariant: is it close to what you were thinking of?
21:51:07 <elliott> j-invariant: isn't it a dependent symbolic CAS? :P i mean that's my impression of it
22:01:03 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm actually curious
22:01:27 <elliott> j-invariant: what does your design have different to axiom? :)
22:04:38 <elliott> ugh i have to rename some of my methods...
22:04:51 <elliott> j-invariant: can you fork ghc and add ml-style modules please, then i would always use haskell
22:05:59 <j-invariant> elliott: Yeah I think I would change a bit moore than that :P
22:06:23 <elliott> j-invariant: Well ... ML modules lets you chuck out typeclasses :P
22:08:45 <j-invariant> elliott: yeah, something that subsumes GADTs, Typeclasses and Modules
22:08:58 <elliott> j-invariant: you mean like dependent records? :P
22:10:00 <elliott> j-invariant: dependent records do powerful ML-style modules; powerful ML-style modules do typeclasses with, like, one bit of magic; and dependent inductive types are of course basically GADTs
22:10:33 <elliott> j-invariant: (the one bit of magic I think is this: a module signature can specify one of its exported values is "magical"; whenever a value of that type is needed as an implicit module parameter (a notion added just for this), that value is used)
22:10:56 <elliott> j-invariant: for instance, the module implementing integers would have a magical value of type Ring Z
22:11:02 <elliott> and then some function might be like
22:11:27 <elliott> lolRingFunction : forall T, [Ring T] -> ...
22:11:33 <elliott> where [] means "magic module param"
22:11:42 <elliott> would auto-specify that (Ring Z) value
22:11:54 <elliott> of course having two magical values of the same type in your current module scope is verboten
22:12:04 <elliott> j-invariant: you mean as the syntax?
22:12:14 <elliott> would keep the verbosity down
22:12:24 <elliott> j-invariant: maybe something like "the" though
22:12:28 <elliott> lolRingFunction : the Ring T, ...
22:15:18 <elliott> j-invariant: oh god, I have created an image that could give Douglas Hofstadter an aneurysm
22:15:54 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/VqcIS.png
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22:16:41 <j-invariant> obviously the egytions understood recursion
22:17:12 <j-invariant> it's glass on the inside but sand on the outside
22:17:14 <elliott> note to self, add a separate background colour for selected vs. active... hard to remove those lists without knowing what you have selected
22:18:41 <elliott> editing these nested expressions is slow :D
22:19:54 <quintopia> i would like to see an upside-down floating sand pyramid in minecraft
22:24:50 <elliott> oklopol: is "foo ~ {}" valid Clue?
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22:26:14 <Vorpal> <quintopia> i would like to see an upside-down floating sand pyramid in minecraft <-- possible with torches
22:26:27 <Vorpal> quintopia, if it floats just above a torch that is
22:26:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, why not make one yourself?
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22:29:17 <Vorpal> (wait, is none else going to continue this chain?)
22:37:28 <elliott> oklopol: so hey, cled is ugly as fuck :D
22:40:23 <elliott> j-invariant: http://i.imgur.com/CP1vV.png can you figure out what's going on here :D
22:41:29 <j-invariant> I don't know what [] does.. looks nice though :D
22:43:40 <elliott> j-invariant: it's just a list
22:43:50 <elliott> j-invariant: ([] (1) (2) (3)) there is [1 2 3]
22:44:18 <elliott> j-invariant: basically, that screenshot is the really ugly representation of {. 3 [7 44 1] -> [[1] 3 [7 44]] } ... with some highlighting oddities
22:44:32 <elliott> j-invariant: i think i'm starting to see why this kind of editing is unpopular
22:44:33 <quintopia> what is cled? some derivative of clue?
22:45:10 <elliott> quintopia: cled is my semantic AST editor for clue ... it happened after i wanted to write a clue-mode for emacs
22:45:15 <elliott> and it's became, well, this monstrosity
22:45:28 <elliott> 453 lines of folly and counting
22:45:41 <elliott> it's the platonically perfect clue editor
22:45:51 <elliott> but i'm gonna develop it to completion anyway :D
22:46:06 <quintopia> only because clue sucks and not because there's anything wrong with the editor, yes?
22:46:21 <elliott> quintopia: no, clue is amazing
22:46:23 <elliott> my editor sucks and ROCKS!
22:47:03 <quintopia> ehird man speak with forked tongue. need whiskey and migraine pill for good medicine.
22:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone tell me which books of Known Space are any good.
22:47:43 <elliott> <PH, daily> Someone point me to a list of the reasons X sucks. <PH, daily> Someone tell me what subset of Y is good.
22:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> What about the infamous third book in the Ringworld series?
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22:48:29 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717 Nice.
22:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> <PH, daily> Someone point me to a list of the reasons X sucks. <PH, daily> Someone tell me what subset of Y is good. ← BLATANT LIES
22:48:39 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean, "what about it"?
22:48:40 <elliott> FastRender: more efficient chunk queue processing.
22:48:40 <elliott> UniText: a completely rewritten text renderer. It's faster and supports Unicode, although the Unicode font files are not included with this release.
22:48:40 <elliott> Fewer glClears: erasing the entire screen is expensive. This mod avoids it when possible.
22:48:42 <elliott> Better chunk drawing code: Removing a few useless transforms from the chunk rendering code lets all visible chunks be drawn in a straightforward manner.
22:48:47 <elliott> I like this Scaevolus guy.
22:49:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: INCIDENTALLY, can you buy me a new GPU?
22:49:16 <elliott> I plan to configure Minecraft to be utterly insane soon.
22:49:18 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, i.e. it's infamous for being a perfect instance of quality being inversely proportional to place in the series?
22:49:59 <elliott> An HD texture pack if I find one I like, far distance, fancy rendering, Better Light, that shader mod with depth of field, perhaps also with that lighting shader if I can find it and make it work together...
22:50:55 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: I don't recall it being bad, though.
22:50:58 <nooga> my 50x50 trap works
22:51:09 <pikhq_> Definitely not as good as the first, mind.
22:51:31 <nooga> i've get approx 24 sulfur in 15 min
22:52:24 <elliott> nooga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiJh5fpWPAo
22:52:33 <elliott> j-invariant: kill creepers
22:53:11 <elliott> nooga: build that and then come back
22:53:15 <j-invariant> what the hell is happening in that video! LOL
22:53:37 <j-invariant> the reason they die is because of falling from such a height
22:53:48 <elliott> j-invariant: watch the rest of it :)
22:53:49 <j-invariant> ummm.... that must have taken a while to build
22:53:54 <elliott> j-invariant: basically: they don't spawn on steps
22:53:58 <elliott> so the ground below is safe
22:54:02 <elliott> and then the huge dome catches them
22:54:09 <elliott> so they walk down and then fall inside
22:54:29 <j-invariant> how the hell did he have the patience to build it
22:54:29 <elliott> since they're spawning all the time at night, they fall down at a crazy rate :)
22:54:55 <elliott> tl;dr mobs spawn in big water slide all night, ride uncontrollably, fall down, die, drop loot.
22:55:50 <elliott> j-invariant: building mob traps is not so hard though
22:56:07 <elliott> j-invariant: basically, you want an easily steppable-upon bit of water that mobs will go into, which then leads down to
22:56:09 <nooga> elliott: @ this clip... i thought that mobs don't spawn on water
22:56:15 <elliott> and the two Cs are catcuses
22:56:21 <elliott> nooga: dunno... i think they do
22:56:30 <elliott> nooga: but besides, there's those little sticky out bits of cobbles fro them to spawn on anyway
22:56:35 <elliott> j-invariant: this crushes the mobs
22:56:39 <elliott> j-invariant: and they'll drop loot into the stream
22:56:43 <elliott> j-invariant: which you then route into your base
22:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, that Optimine thing has mucked up Better Light.
22:56:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you apply better light afterwards
22:56:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not before
22:57:04 <elliott> j-invariant: so basically mobs will keep walking in, getting crushed by the cactus, and their loot will float into a pool in your base
22:57:12 <elliott> j-invariant: that won't be hugely fast, but it'll be pretty good
22:58:14 <elliott> j-invariant: look for natural cobblestone while mining, and also mossy cobblestone
22:58:19 <elliott> j-invariant: it'll be a dungeon
22:58:22 <elliott> j-invariant: with a mob spawner inside
22:58:31 <elliott> j-invariant: now consider: dig out the floor beneath that mob spawner
22:58:45 <elliott> j-invariant: so much that they die of fall damage
22:58:49 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8xs53VmFjc neat
22:58:53 <elliott> j-invariant: mob spawners only spawn one type of monster
22:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> [[...these people are trying to make money from an idea that does not belong to them.]] — An Idiot on the MC boards.
22:59:21 <elliott> j-invariant: e.g. if it's a spider spawner
22:59:24 <elliott> j-invariant: you could get shitloads of string
23:01:02 <elliott> j-invariant: that door machine is hilarious
23:01:17 <elliott> j-invariant: if you tab away it sounds like venetian snares... sorta
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23:14:28 <elliott> j-invariant: btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/evwk8/does_anyone_know_how_to_make_a_very_simple_but/
23:14:31 <elliott> j-invariant: stuff about mob traps
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23:20:04 <elliott> guide to minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/i1YWC.png
23:25:33 <Sgeo> Is Notch going to remove indefinitely burning logs?
23:25:50 <elliott> The probability of that is somewhere in the region of 0.
23:26:19 <elliott> Because there's something like seventeen hundred billion fireplaces, and also, very little reason to fix it :P
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23:29:02 <Sgeo> elliott, what are your thoughts on Clean?
23:29:32 <elliott> an interesting curiosity and — mere curiosity. uniqueness typing is interesting.
23:29:54 <elliott> also clean has some REALLY weird bits
23:29:58 <elliott> you write (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
23:30:08 <elliott> that doesn't even make any sense and takes special casing
23:30:17 <Sgeo> elliott, are Clean functions curried?
23:30:31 <elliott> also (x:xs) is [x:xs], which, again, means that a single list with the single element (x:xs) is [[x:xs]]... which is just plain confusing and stupid
23:30:40 <elliott> but these are all syntactical differences.
23:32:30 <Sgeo> Maybe uniqueness typing is what will bring me back into the purely functional world
23:32:37 <Sgeo> [Or maybe I'll be bored to tears]
23:32:51 <cheater99> Sgeo: stop talking in trivial lists.
23:33:31 <j-invariant> elliott: I trapped some cows in a cave but they disappeared :(
23:33:37 <elliott> i kind of feel embarrassed for Sgeo on behalf of... everyone
23:33:53 <j-invariant> I just dug this small cave into a hill and trapped the cows in there
23:34:03 <elliott> j-invariant: Of course it is: http://imgur.com/a/pt8v5
23:34:05 <Sgeo> elliott, what cheater99 said was a joke, afaict.
23:34:10 <elliott> I suppose they might die in low light.
23:34:59 <elliott> j-invariant: try building a small but ~5 deep pit instead
23:35:03 <elliott> and put a torch on the walls
23:35:14 <elliott> j-invariant: if you walked too far away i guess they could disappear... but you'd have to walk a few chunks
23:35:34 <j-invariant> elliott: yeah I roam very far so that might not be worth doing then
23:35:48 <elliott> j-invariant: it's like 16 chunks
23:36:11 <elliott> j-invariant: i think i'm wrong
23:36:54 <elliott> "Mobs spawn no closer than 24 blocks and disappear if they are more than 4 chunks away from the player."
23:36:55 <cheater99> j-elliott: why not just play farmville?
23:37:00 <elliott> j-invariant: ok if you walked far away.
23:37:07 <elliott> cheater99: because minecraft is more than farming? :P
23:37:12 <elliott> j-invariant: build a mob trap :D
23:37:46 <cheater99> yes, use minecraft to make mafiaville or whatever they call it
23:38:52 <elliott> j-invariant: really? that shouldn't have took that long to build... unless it has like a flat top and is really wide
23:39:12 <cheater99> you should now recreate von dniken's mythology around it
23:39:27 <elliott> j-invariant: how long did it take to build?
23:39:43 <j-invariant> elliott: dunno I did other stuff in between
23:40:34 <elliott> cheater99: there's redstone.
23:40:47 <elliott> bluestone would let you build a hideously complex autominer but it doesn't exist and never will >:)
23:41:08 <cheater99> minecraft just sounds real fucking boring to me in that you have to sit around clicking stuff
23:41:28 <cheater99> it's like killing wild pigs in a forrest in wow
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23:41:44 <cheater99> 1 experience point per click or something equally dumb
23:41:53 <cheater99> (not that i ever played wow, but you know what i mean)
23:41:55 <elliott> you don't kill pigs generally
23:42:08 <elliott> well er no because in MC most of the time is spent doing shit you want
23:42:10 <cheater99> elliott: yeah, but that's what it feels like
23:42:17 <elliott> you've clearly never played
23:42:36 <elliott> % of people who haven't played minecraft and think it's probably lame: 99
23:42:44 <elliott> % of people who have played minecraft and think it's lame: much less
23:43:06 <cheater99> generally in the family of minecraft-likes you'd expect a scripted way of doing things in accelerated time, or at least without user interaction
23:43:14 <elliott> do you not think everyone has already heard "OMG IT SOUNDS BORING AND LAME" 100 times before
23:43:34 <cheater99> i'm not trying to change your mind or anything
23:43:35 <Gregor> DURP DURP MY INFORMED OPINION IS THAT IT'S LAME
23:43:44 <elliott> Gregor: OH MAN THAT'S NOVEL
23:43:52 <Gregor> I mean literally lame though.
23:43:57 <elliott> cheater99: in response: no, automating such things would not make the game more fun.
23:44:04 <elliott> Gregor: So THAT'S what the view bobbing is.
23:44:04 <cheater99> i'm just expressing what my impression is and wondering why you guys think different
23:44:41 <cheater99> <elliott> I'M NOT UPSET OK?????????
23:44:52 <elliott> ah, right, everyone who disagrees with you is upset
23:45:28 <elliott> mining can be fun enough because you find caverns and dungeons, exploring caves is fun and often screenshot-worthy, exploring terrain is fun and often leads to good locations for build projects, building structures are fun, building houses is fun, building machines with redstone is fun, fighting mobs is... uh... terrifying
23:45:41 <cheater99> ya i can see exploring mines is fun
23:46:06 <elliott> exploring mines? you build mines, you mean caverns :P
23:46:31 <cheater99> but like.. i'm surprised there aren't scripts for say building houses or pools
23:46:31 <Gregor> Did I also mention that people who play Minecraft are torps and hurpadurp?
23:48:31 <Gregor> Such a torp question to ask.
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23:49:28 <elliott> cheater99: man why aren't there machines that automate pushing pieces of lego together
23:49:38 <elliott> that just feels so droll tbh
23:50:32 <elliott> cheater99: would you use them
23:50:42 <elliott> j-invariant: THAT SLEEP THING IS WORKING WELL FOR YOU HUH
23:51:06 <elliott> cheater99: ahh, so you'd rather play MINECRAFT: FOR KIDS!
23:51:28 <Sgeo> Oh, that reminds me, I want to try Roblox >.>
23:52:08 <cheater99> since, like, i love to remit like that.
23:52:27 <elliott> you keep using that word etc.
23:53:55 <elliott> so my superdrive STILL isn't here, what is this INSOLENCE
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23:55:26 <cheater99> you have to make sure the infidels pay with their lives
23:57:35 <cheater99> anyways, some cool tricks here: http://blog.ksplice.com/2011/01/solving-problems-with-proc/
23:57:37 <elliott> no, but i do not think it means what you think it means.
23:58:28 <elliott> "A UNIX process refers to its open files using integers called file descriptors. When we say "standard input", we really mean "file descriptor 0". So we can use /proc/self/fd/0 as an explicit name for standard input:"
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23:58:53 <elliott> cheater99: that's irrelevant, the fact is that afaik nobody uses "remit" like that
23:59:01 <elliott> unless you, like, got cancer at the age of 3 and still have it
23:59:05 <elliott> "I'm remitting back to BEFORE"
23:59:22 <elliott> "Good news! I'm in remission!" "That's great!" "Yes, I love being three years old!"
23:59:27 <cheater99> yeah but there's a technique in psychology called remission
23:59:44 <elliott> isn't it regression you are thinking of
00:00:59 <cheater99> you could totally be a good subordinate neural network for some things
00:01:16 <cheater99> i should stuff your brain in a jar when you don't need it anymore
00:01:36 <elliott> i doubt that you will be in much of a position to do that at that time
00:02:07 <elliott> well i assume you mean when i die.
00:02:13 <elliott> and i *expect* you'll die before me
00:02:30 <cheater99> i mean, let's say you suddenly find yourself with vital organs failing surprisingly, as if someone were blasting surgically applied rays of microwaves into your body
00:02:40 <elliott> that would be quite unfortunate, yes
00:02:50 <elliott> i rather think my brain would take some damage
00:02:58 <cheater99> let's say it's a cabal of killer ninja-robot-rabbits
00:03:40 <elliott> i rather meant from the trauma
00:04:16 <cheater99> well, we'd need to make the decision to jar you quick then
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00:05:57 <cheater99> a project to replace brains with something less volatile than a foie gras could be real fun
00:06:21 <cheater99> even if, say, replicating the function of a neuron would take a supercomputer.
00:07:37 <cheater99> i find someone sitting down and writing GHC unlikely
00:08:08 <elliott> what's that got to do with anything
00:08:19 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:08:20 <elliott> "someone" didn't, tons of people did it over the course of years
00:08:28 <cheater99> well, it's as high on my unlikelihood scale
00:08:28 <elliott> also, that's an argument /for/ technology being able to do things, not for it not being able to
00:08:38 <elliott> ghc isn't _that_ advanced..
00:10:06 <cheater99> still, looking back, in the 70s when most people were just working with perforated tape
00:10:19 <cheater99> what ghc is now seemed like sci-fi
00:10:21 <elliott> i find it incredibly unlikely that replicating the function of a neuron would take a supercomputer
00:10:32 <elliott> and, uh, not really, it's just a compiler ...
00:10:47 <elliott> cheater99: ML came out in the early 70s
00:10:55 <elliott> Haskell isn't much of a leap
00:11:22 <cheater99> but still, the general population was doing that perforated cards stuff
00:11:24 <cheater99> "type inference? what's a type? is that like a collection of holes in a von neumann machine?"
00:11:59 <cheater99> and what i'm saying is i guess we're to neuroscience what perforated card users were to computer science back then
00:12:02 <Sgeo> Does SML not have the +. nonsense of OCaml?
00:12:31 <cheater99> the worst thing about haskell for me is the indentation nonsense
00:13:09 <Sgeo> The thing that functions or whatever can't operate, say, on both ints and floats
00:13:55 <copumpkin> you can write haskell with brackets and semicolons if you want to
00:14:08 <copumpkin> most people just prefer to reduce visual clutter
00:14:41 <cheater99> i'm talking indentation not braces
00:14:55 <cheater99> python doesn't have braces or semicolons but it has a nice indent style
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00:15:13 <copumpkin> with braces and semicolons, you can indent as you choose
00:15:37 <copumpkin> you can also indent as you choose with regular haskell and no braces and semicolons
00:15:44 <copumpkin> I don't really understand what you mean
00:15:51 <cheater99> it's like i'm saying "i don't like having diarrhea" and you say "cut off your arm instead"
00:15:51 <copumpkin> it's strictly more flexible than python's rules
00:16:20 <cheater99> i somehow find that's not really the case
00:16:30 <cheater99> also i see a lot of mutilated code
00:16:42 <cheater99> no, but there were some problems i have indeed run into
00:17:02 <cheater99> when i said i can't give examples i really meant it :p
00:17:14 <copumpkin> it sucks, but I can't remember why
00:17:22 <elliott> copumpkin: cheater99 is a troll, ignore him :)
00:17:32 <cheater99> coppro: elliott is a troll, just ignore him :)
00:17:41 <elliott> coppro is already ignoring me
00:18:51 <cheater99> copumpkin: next time i run into something i'll let you know (if i can remember at all that you were being all gung-ho about it)
00:18:53 <elliott> this channel is such a happy family
00:19:01 <elliott> erm there was someone being gung-ho here but it wasn't copumpkin
00:19:22 <cheater99> we're ending up like the eastenders.
00:19:33 <cheater99> constant haggle just to make do :D
00:19:39 <elliott> ...nobody should ever analogise wi- i give up i'm just going to go back to logreading
00:19:43 <elliott> NOBODY EVER ARGUES IN MY PEACEFUL LOGS
00:19:56 <elliott> read oklopol talk about topology
00:19:59 <copumpkin> cheater99: well, let me just put it this way: python requires you to in/outdent by a specific amount each time. Haskell just looks for things that are indented the same depth and considers those to be at the same level. So you can indent haskell like python and have it behave as you'd expect
00:20:25 <cheater99> elliott: where is he talking about topology?
00:20:28 <copumpkin> however, most code in haskell doesn't get very deeply indented
00:20:44 <cheater99> elliott: give me something to search buffer for
00:20:48 <elliott> i should try writing a literate program in haskell sometime, it'd be fun
00:20:51 <elliott> cheater99: grep oklopol 10*
00:21:15 <cheater99> i only have this xchat buffer, i can search for exact strings
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00:21:45 <cheater99> i don't have logs, what are logs, this is some sort of high-fly technology you're talking about. what's magnetic storage?
00:21:49 <elliott> cheater99: um oklopol hasn't talked about topology today
00:21:57 <elliott> hg clone http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ esotericlogs
00:22:25 <elliott> it's just an easy way to get incremental updates to http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ ...
00:22:31 <elliott> it's not like you're going to be committing typofixes
00:22:37 <elliott> just hg pull; hg update every few days
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00:23:03 <elliott> Gregor put it in the topic under the assumption that people wouldn't rape his bandwidth
00:23:38 <elliott> 21:09:04 <oklofok> actually
00:23:38 <elliott> 21:09:06 <oklofok> you're right
00:23:38 <elliott> 21:09:13 <oklofok> for this to be a great tv show
00:23:39 <elliott> 21:09:22 <oklofok> we need like a really stupid fbi guy
00:23:41 <cheater99> but pulling is very low-bandwidth, isn't it?
00:23:41 <elliott> 21:09:27 <oklofok> who asks stupid questions
00:23:43 <elliott> 21:09:46 <oklofok> "so you're saying a locally connected spaces is like a rabbit that sticks its head into a bush when it gets scared?"
00:23:45 <elliott> oklopol: who let you be so awesome
00:23:50 <elliott> cheater99: it's also non-zero-bandwidth
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00:25:20 <elliott> 21:18:19 <oklofok> that's true for all partitions gotten this way?
00:25:20 <elliott> 21:18:33 <oklofok> is that obvious again...
00:25:22 <elliott> 21:19:03 <oklofok> well of course it is
00:25:24 <elliott> 21:19:06 <oklofok> by definition of touch
00:25:28 <elliott> 21:19:42 <oklofok> what's the definition of touch?
00:25:31 <Gregor> cheater99: Pulling is relatively low bandwidth, but it's a big enough archive that if a ton of people downloaded it, it would add up *shrugs*
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00:25:42 <elliott> i'm gonna pull it every second
00:26:10 <cheater99> Gregor: i'm just gonna do what elliott suggests, you can blame him by proxy
00:26:27 <elliott> cheater99: btw it only updates every day
00:26:30 <cheater99> i think you'd need RTLinux for picoseconds
00:26:59 <cheater99> you know, tcp windowing gets interesting once you get to near-light speeds
00:27:28 <cheater99> if your requests can go out faster than they can traverse the cable
00:27:59 <elliott> just replace all hlt instructions in the kernel with hg pull code
00:28:01 <cheater99> i guess that's been done with TCP/CP though
00:28:01 <Vorpal> cheater99, does that ever happen though?
00:28:17 <elliott> i love having two views of a buffer open at once, helps me forget my screen is tiny
00:28:50 <cheater99> i thought you'd know what TCP over Carrier Pidgeon was
00:29:18 <elliott> i thought you meant pigeons travelled at near light speed there
00:29:20 <cheater99> yeah, i just made it up to sound mysterious
00:29:37 <Vorpal> cheater99, they should
00:29:55 <cheater99> ziggy, what probabilities are we looking at right now??
00:30:03 <Vorpal> elliott, yes they do but um they are also turned into novergian blues
00:30:18 <Vorpal> (that is plural of blue, not the word "blues")
00:30:43 <elliott> 21:40:00 <oklofok> how are they not linear
00:30:43 <elliott> 21:40:28 <oklofok> i know too little about this stuff
00:30:48 <elliott> 21:40:40 <oklofok> EVERYTHING
00:31:04 <Vorpal> elliott, did he say those last lines?
00:31:29 <cheater99> you'll never know. the history is blurry at that point
00:31:36 <cheater99> the path of time has been changed forever
00:31:39 <Vorpal> cheater99, I could grep logs
00:31:44 <elliott> yeah nobody can check the logs
00:31:50 <elliott> GUESS GREGOR DIDN'T THINK OF THAT EH
00:31:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I have my local clog ones :P
00:32:01 <elliott> omg what if he's secretly censoring things in the weekly checkouts
00:32:20 <cheater99> elliott: if we implemented brain as a quantum computer, could this mean it would be agnostic of time?
00:32:32 <cheater99> because of quantum tangling across time
00:32:54 <Vorpal> you mean entanglement?
00:33:28 <Vorpal> cheater99, tangling sounds so everyday
00:33:47 <Gregor> elliott: Daily, and I censor them directly out of your mind, first.
00:33:52 <cheater99> entanglement sounds so popular science
00:34:02 <elliott> Gregor: oh that's what that pleasingly calm and relaxing sensation is
00:34:09 <Vorpal> cheater99, or actual real science
00:34:39 <cheater99> let's only talk about ufos and lsd-philosophy!
00:35:06 <cheater99> i heard someone say 2012 will not even happen in 2012
00:35:15 <Gregor> IDEA FOR WORST MOVIE EVER: A docudrama/romantic comedy about a quantum scientist and his ENTANGLEMENT with some fru-fru hippy girl that doesn't believe in science.
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00:35:59 <cheater99> what was that movie about the great scientist and his son
00:36:00 <Vorpal> 1991260 | 2010-12-14 06:40:40 | oklofok | | | 0 | EVERYTHING
00:36:13 <cheater99> the guy builds starships and his son goes to south africa and builds canoes
00:36:32 <elliott> Gregor: ALSO CANDIDATE FOR: Strangest sex scenes in a movie.
00:36:42 <elliott> Gregor: I'm assuming you mean: literal entanglement.
00:36:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I read it as stranglet sex scenes
00:36:52 <elliott> As in, his body is literally quantumly entangled with hers. Permanently. Somehow.
00:36:59 <elliott> Please tell me this is the case.
00:37:00 <Gregor> elliott: Literal QUANTUM entanglement, that leads to romantic entanglement!
00:37:10 <Gregor> "Our spin, it's the same!"
00:37:23 <elliott> Gregor: "You're...inside me..." "THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!"
00:37:33 <elliott> Gregor: "It's not rape if physics dictates!"
00:37:35 <cheater99> you spin me right round baby right round
00:37:48 <elliott> Gregor: AM I: (A) BEST PERSON (B) HORRIBLE PERSON (NOT B)?
00:38:00 <cheater99> like a [something something] right round round round
00:38:14 <Gregor> elliott: All of the above? :P
00:38:16 <cheater99> you spin me right round baby right round, like a quantum entangled device right round round round
00:38:22 <elliott> Gregor: (C) ALL OF THE BELOW
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00:39:33 <elliott> Apparently Dock stopped being the Minecraft artist because:
00:39:39 <elliott> "I kept on running into technical problems with the export process, and Markus wasn’t used to having to wait for art assets."
00:40:07 <cheater99> ./08.08.22:14:18:36 <oklopol> Haskell is compiled from .hs-files which means HOMO SEXUAL this could be funny.
00:40:45 <Ilari> Hah... Somebody's explanation of Gulf War Syndrome: It was the diet sodas troops drank...
00:41:07 <elliott> 00:39:12 <oklopol> has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck?
00:41:35 <cheater99> isn't brainfuck basically a quicksort algorithm
00:41:43 <elliott> 06.12.20:16:54:40 <oklopol> a.split("") is illegal? how to parse a string to a list of letters? :DD then i might be able to carry on :)
00:41:43 <cheater99> it sorts out people who are bored enough to learn it
00:41:46 <elliott> 06.12.20:16:56:20 <oklopol> haha i can't do an assignment in a lambda? :D or is there a way?
00:41:54 <elliott> oklopol: you were a bad person
00:42:33 <elliott> 06.12.26:12:59:06 <oklopol> i love brainfuck, yeah, you gotta
00:42:56 <Sgeo> A string already is a list of characters
00:43:29 <Sgeo> It's iterable though, so usable in most such contexts
00:43:35 <Sgeo> And list(somestring) should work
00:43:49 <Vorpal> you can't modify a string in place in python iirc
00:44:14 <cheater99> TypeError: 'str' object does not support item assignment
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00:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, as usual I'm right :P
00:44:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it needs to be hashable or something iirc
00:45:19 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:45:39 <cheater00> variables in python are immutable.
00:45:45 <cheater00> um, i've done a very disturbing discovery
00:46:07 <cheater00> :||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
00:46:12 <elliott> what the fuck is that <> shit for
00:46:47 <elliott> it requires an extra escape
00:46:56 <elliott> ofc why you aren't just 'quoting' it is another mystery
00:47:04 <elliott> and requires one less escape the way cheater00 did it
00:47:30 <quintopia> but he is an idiot for not quoting
00:47:37 <cheater00> \b is not the same in that it is not directional.
00:47:43 <quintopia> and picking on idiots is politically incorrect
00:48:04 <elliott> because wasting time figuring out how to escape in both the shell and regexps is a waste of brain?
00:48:17 <elliott> "oh i need to escape this shell metachar, \, oh i need to escape this regexp metachar, \\, oh but it's a shell metachar too, \\\"
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00:49:58 <cheater00> $ grep -ir \\\<scheme\\\> . | wc -l
00:50:07 <elliott> http://images.apple.com/v20110110174859/startpage/images/store_ipodtouch_20100927.png look at that personal engraving
00:50:19 <cheater00> we should have like a bar chart for each language mentioned on 99bottles and in the wiki
00:50:21 <elliott> apple think everyone is a douchebag
00:50:29 <elliott> cheater00: botte will have statistics.
00:51:03 <cheater00> does botte exist in [t=now, t=now+1year] ?
00:51:23 <elliott> now+1 year, most likely yes
00:51:34 <elliott> i still need to figure how to address some infinity lines quickly though
00:52:03 <elliott> I need basically arbitrary (non-backtracking) regexp search on that.
00:52:14 <elliott> that doesn't solve the problem of _how_ to index it.
00:52:24 <elliott> I can use an efficient regexp lib like Russ Cox's RE2 to grep ... but I don't know if it will be efficient.
00:52:26 <cheater00> just grep | wc -l every language name
00:52:35 <elliott> um botte has far more advanced needs than just that
00:53:05 <elliott> if i didn't scope creep, it'd be 32583495 bots
00:53:13 <elliott> it's not something i've just made up now anyway...
00:53:19 <elliott> $ time grep 'hello' big >/dev/null
00:53:38 <cheater00> is it something you've made up five minutes ago?
00:53:59 <elliott> heh grep -i is significantly slower i think
00:54:06 <elliott> $ time (grep -i clue big | wc -l)
00:54:18 <elliott> RE2 powers Google Code Search
00:54:22 <elliott> probably faster than grep i'd wager
00:54:29 <cheater00> hence you always have a collation-normalize copy
00:55:01 <cheater00> so that EVERYONE IS SHOUTING LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME
00:55:04 <elliott> and remove punctuation, yes, maybe
00:55:24 <elliott> well to make most searches more efficient
00:55:34 <elliott> maybe have heuristics to keep it in urls and channel names and stuff
00:55:42 <elliott> but "foo," "foo:" "foo." "foo!" "foo?" etc.
00:55:49 <elliott> the plan is basically to build the whole botte storage engine on something similar to datalog
00:56:04 <cheater00> well when you're searching you just use the simple copy for finding the right file/line
00:56:11 <cheater00> then you grep those lines with the usual files again
00:56:42 <elliott> i'll probably just filter out [a-zA-Z0-9]
00:56:54 <elliott> useful for e.g. "brainfuck" vs "brain fuck"
00:57:08 <elliott> the channel would be silent :P
00:57:24 <cheater00> have everyone pre-process on their own
00:57:30 <cheater00> i.e. before they send to the channel..
00:57:38 <cheater00> you could have mutliple copies too
00:57:58 <elliott> when i say prolog-esque db, i also want to stuff s-expressions in there somehow
00:58:03 <elliott> just because it's, you know, advanced technology
00:58:24 <elliott> now the issue is that no _language_ can live up to such an amazing database system...
00:58:25 <cheater00> one normal copy, one with strtoupper, then with spaces normalized, then with common words removed, then with punctuation removed, then with more punctuation removed, then with spaces removed
00:58:38 <cheater00> each level has everything the previous had
00:59:32 <cheater00> elliott: have you played secret maryo?
01:01:23 <elliott> >>> re.sub(r'[^a-z0-9]', '', 'Hello, world! http://google.com/ is the nemesis 20 times over. :P'.lower())
01:01:23 <elliott> 'helloworldhttpgooglecomisthenemesis20timesoverp'
01:01:27 <elliott> might wanna filter out smilies first
01:01:35 <elliott> actually spaces could be worth keeping :)
01:01:48 <elliott> other things botte will let you do: play the Name Game
01:04:00 <elliott> i wonder if anyone's already invented my latex-but-for-semantic-document-layout-rather-than-print-layout-making
01:04:05 <elliott> like texinfo, except less sucky
01:04:34 <cheater00> elliott: hence i say filter out common words
01:04:54 <elliott> cheater00: that's getting too close to a proper indexer for my liking, i'd rather build that kind of stuff on _top_ of a powerful thing
01:05:00 <elliott> in fact, i'm not even sure i want to filter punctuation
01:05:05 <elliott> maybe i'll just lowercase it all
01:05:13 <elliott> i can build another index store for searching on top of that
01:05:38 <elliott> what if you want to search for code snippets
01:05:47 <elliott> this is to be used by everything, i can build another stripped index on top
01:05:49 <cheater00> then you enter punctuation into your query
01:06:01 <elliott> i mean, the current combined log is only 124 and a half megabytes
01:06:05 <cheater00> and then it knows, yo, i gotta use me the punctuation-enabled database, yo
01:06:31 <elliott> i could fit 196.6 copies of the log onto a $20 prgmr vps
01:06:36 <elliott> (assuming the disk is otherwise completely empty)
01:06:47 <elliott> and that's including its inefficient textual storage format
01:06:52 <elliott> and inclusion of irrelevant things like joins and parts
01:06:55 <elliott> so really i'm not too worried
01:07:16 <Gregor> elliott: Have fun with no OS :P
01:07:23 <cheater00> what we really need is a neuron simulation that will just learn how to tell us what logs to read
01:07:33 <elliott> Gregor: it was just figurewank :P
01:07:37 <elliott> cheater00: just read them all
01:07:57 <cheater00> Gregor: OS is overrated, just load a simple telnet server into RAM from NetBIOS
01:08:11 <elliott> on a prgmr.com xen, SUUUUURE
01:08:28 <cheater00> elliott: i was saying that knowingly.
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01:12:44 <Sgeo> Literate Hasell?
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01:13:14 <elliott> oh great... i borked my texlive install
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01:14:58 <elliott> what a coincidence! copumpkin coming in just as i do haskell!
01:15:04 <elliott> (note: you will always be the #haskeller. always)
01:16:48 <copumpkin> man, I've only been using haskell for a couple of years and already I'm known for it!
01:17:14 <elliott> copumpkin: you might consider that instead, the problem is that you haven't done _anything_ more interesting than use haskell :D
01:17:34 <elliott> copumpkin: i'm just kidding!
01:17:53 <elliott> setup: /usr/local/texlive/2010basic/texmf-local/tex/latex/polytable:
01:18:24 <Sgeo> sudo apt-install elliott
01:18:35 <Sgeo> sudo apt-get install elliott
01:18:48 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
01:18:54 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:18:59 <Sgeo> What's wrong with apt-get?
01:19:11 <Sgeo> Also, WTF key combination did I press thaat did that?
01:19:13 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
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01:19:19 <Sgeo> Fuck you, Ctrl-W
01:20:34 <elliott> Sgeo: the official package manager of the Debian operating system is aptitude
01:20:43 <elliott> so hey copumpkin MISTER HASKELL how do i use lhs2tex, i want step by step instructions
01:21:15 <cheater00> elliott: everything you find out, relay it to me, let me just turn on my Ono-Sendai
01:21:16 <elliott> oh... lhs2tex looks like it italicises all names by default, not just variable bindings
01:21:20 <elliott> but top-level definitions and library functions too
01:21:23 <elliott> but i'm sure i can customise that
01:21:53 <cheater00> you don't know the Ono Sendai Cyberspace 7?
01:22:07 <elliott> i'm trying to get lhs to work
01:22:25 <elliott> ! LaTeX Error: File `stmaryrd.sty' not found.
01:22:42 <elliott> "% The module for importing the St Mary's Road symbol font."
01:22:44 <elliott> why are you importing that.
01:23:11 <elliott> i don't understand how anyone can use an os without a package manager
01:23:19 <cheater00> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
01:23:21 <elliott> it's like using a programming language without names
01:23:25 <cheater00> same thing i've been asking myself
01:23:36 <cheater00> let's install netbsd on a toaster :(
01:23:48 <elliott> netbsd's package manager isn't so hot either :)
01:23:59 <cheater00> yea but it's an esoteric os project
01:24:41 <cheater00> variable: but until 5 people do it it's still esoteric
01:25:08 <cheater00> variable: that's no special feat. any computer with a pentium 4 can toast bread
01:25:19 <elliott> cheater00: macports is bad
01:25:27 <elliott> homebrew is slightly better but run by seeming idiots and with a lack of packages
01:25:36 <elliott> saying it as someone who used it for like two years
01:25:43 <elliott> um well rpm anything i can't really comment on.
01:26:10 <variable> rpm is bad - not as bad as some others
01:26:26 <cheater00> http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-netbsd-toaster.php
01:26:44 <cheater00> you gotta find a toaster that is produced in mass
01:26:56 <cheater00> that without modifications (large ones) can accept a kernel OS
01:27:12 <elliott> i think what i'm going to do is write a bunch of programs that convert $stupid_language_specific_package_manager packages into debian packages
01:27:22 <cheater00> i dunno, aren't there microcontrollers in some toasters?
01:27:32 <elliott> so I can do "sudo apt-cabal install some-hackage-package"
01:27:39 <elliott> and it installs it as haskell-cabal-some-hackage-package
01:27:51 <cheater00> elliott: ya, this whole package thing is pissing me off
01:28:09 <elliott> cheater00: i think it's because, in these little isolated bubbles, they're convinced that they can do better than everyone else
01:28:23 <elliott> cheater00: it sorta started with CPAN, which wasn't _too_ horrible since it wasn't identical to apt — ok it was 500000x worse
01:28:25 <cheater00> people should finally agree on the One True Package Distribution System: wget from cdrom.com
01:28:28 <elliott> but you couldn't tell it was trying to be apt
01:28:55 <elliott> and then it just so happened that it was easy to write a program that automatically installed hackage packages...
01:29:08 <elliott> i don't think anyone uses pear
01:29:13 <elliott> php devs don't really understand the concept of a library package
01:29:26 <elliott> pear always confused me, like,
01:29:30 <elliott> there were all these functions
01:29:41 <elliott> and how come i can't use these functions it just gives me an error
01:29:42 <cheater00> have you ever used this php based make "replacement"
01:29:50 <cheater00> it's like replacing broken bones with frozen doodies
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01:30:13 <elliott> make is so bad, but if there's one thing worse than make, it's make replacements
01:30:24 <elliott> lol, phing is based on ant
01:30:27 <elliott> always a good design decision
01:30:37 <cheater00> but if there's one thing worse than ant, it's ant replacements
01:30:50 <elliott> ant is great, they decided to make a build system
01:30:53 <elliott> so they reimplemented shell scripts
01:30:55 <elliott> except without any features
01:31:05 <elliott> it doesn't even have dependency handling, or the ability to avoid rebuilding everything
01:31:12 <elliott> you could rewrite any ant file as a 10x shorter *dos batch file*
01:31:23 <elliott> well yeah. but it doesn't work properly
01:31:27 <elliott> and everyone just has one compile target
01:31:29 <elliott> which makes one call to java
01:31:54 <elliott> wanna know the solution to that?
01:32:05 <variable> cheater00, ant is still the suckiest build system I've seen
01:32:28 <elliott> variable: i'm starting to come to a glowing appreciation of autohell after using scons
01:32:46 <Sgeo> "Life's Been a Blast"
01:32:51 <elliott> with scons it's like they made a build system, but then heard about this "declarative" stuff
01:32:55 <elliott> and then hacked up something in five minutes
01:32:57 <Sgeo> Appropriate title for a book about a victim of a bombing?
01:32:58 <elliott> and decided to release it lik ethat
01:33:32 <variable> elliott, I've never used scons
01:33:37 <cheater00> elliott: i want a programming language that can be localized
01:33:47 <elliott> how come i'm only getting 800 KiB/s
01:33:47 <cheater00> elliott: let's port python to en_GB
01:33:54 <variable> cheater00, there exist such languages/libraries
01:33:56 <elliott> to download an automatic software installer
01:34:02 <elliott> that will let me typeset my useless programs
01:34:20 <elliott> cheater00: better, let's write an stdlib that uses en-GB spellings
01:34:32 <elliott> i have to name my own functions with "o" and "ize"
01:34:34 <Sgeo> http://www.emilylyons.com/webs/emily/
01:34:36 <elliott> otherwise they're inconsistent with api functions
01:34:43 <elliott> maybe instead of case-insensitive languages
01:34:54 <elliott> dialect-insensitive languages
01:34:57 <elliott> ou and o are exactly the same
01:35:22 <elliott> no, yours involved manual translation
01:35:29 <elliott> mine would also remove 'eh' from every variable name for the canucks
01:35:42 <cheater00> i said let's port, i never said manually
01:36:00 <cheater00> when i say let's execute this program, i'm not manually moving electrons across semiconductor gaps
01:36:56 <elliott> oh man i should so be sleeping guess what i'm not doing THAT'S RIGHT sleeping
01:37:20 <cheater00> elliott: let's replace brains with computers
01:37:31 <elliott> ITT: cheater00 discovers transhumanism
01:37:50 <cheater00> (wait did you call me a cross-dresser)
01:38:19 <cheater00> 2. find out how brains work even more
01:38:26 <cheater00> 3. find out how to replace parts of it
01:38:30 <elliott> this trackpad is really nice
01:38:38 <cheater00> 5. figure out a unit testing suite
01:38:58 <elliott> cheater00: http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm
01:39:15 <cheater00> 7. execute unit tests and keep fixing stuff
01:40:20 <cheater00> well there's this teleportation death paradigm
01:40:30 <elliott> cheater00: see http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm
01:40:30 <cheater00> like, the moment you are teleported away, you die
01:40:38 <elliott> but see http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm
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01:40:45 <elliott> that will put anyone's fears to rest
01:40:49 <cheater00> well what i'm saying is, there's a "fix" to that
01:40:53 <elliott> except it won't because they'll just find another excuse ofc
01:40:58 <elliott> cheater00: um yes and it's in http://www.dansdata.com/gz092.htm for instance :)
01:40:58 <cheater00> you can replace brain neuron by neuron
01:41:02 <elliott> cheater00: yes that's exactly what he says
01:41:08 <elliott> stfu and read it, dan's data must always be read
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01:41:18 <elliott> or more like you had the obvious idea
01:41:28 <cheater00> i would read immediately except i need to spend a penny
01:41:29 <elliott> it's total bullshit that teleportation is death though
01:41:53 <elliott> "Eclipse Orion Project Announced - Browser Based Eclipse"
01:42:02 <elliott> The Eclipse project, always advancing frontiers in IDE slowness.
01:42:07 <cheater00> you've never been to a public toilet have you?
01:42:24 <elliott> "We're afraid the current Java/SWT-based system just outgrew us," a spokesperson for the Eclipse Foundation said.
01:42:42 <elliott> "With a Java backend, and a JavaScript frontend, we're hoping we can achieve slowdowns of some 2-4x."
01:42:46 <elliott> http://dev.eclipse.org/blogs/mike/2011/01/11/introducing-orion/
01:42:50 <cheater00> in fact, it might make eclipse less slow, because chrome
01:42:51 <elliott> all quotes absolutely real
01:42:57 <elliott> cheater00: who cares, it's still eclipse
01:43:11 <elliott> fuck putting everything into the browser
01:43:13 <cheater00> if i wanted an ide i'd just use bash
01:43:37 <elliott> i dunno whether you're being sarcastic or not but yeah pretty much
01:43:41 <elliott> i have an extremely hostile relationship with my browser
01:43:55 <cheater00> and opera is like nice, nice, and then at some point it goes from being ok to TOTALLY BOMBING OUT
01:44:05 <elliott> it's a crappy browser, its two features are
01:44:20 <elliott> it has terrible support for standards and ... everything
01:44:24 <elliott> way more than any other browsers
01:44:38 <cheater00> actually opera was usually on the forefront of standards
01:44:47 <elliott> cheater00: perhaps in the 90s
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01:44:57 <cheater00> except it's not fairyfox so it doesn't get css optimized for it
01:44:58 <elliott> cheater00: that perception is ever-present but illusory nowadays
01:45:18 <elliott> opera fanbois are *very* ... touchy about it, and very promoting
01:45:25 <cheater00> i desperately need to continue reading cryptonomicon
01:45:28 <elliott> i have a feeling opera have built up this standards reputation by hiring a bunch of standards people
01:45:32 <elliott> but really shit breaks in opera all the time
01:45:52 <elliott> um. do you mean that you need to continue reading cryptonomicon
01:46:06 <elliott> CryptoNomiCon is a conference for crypto freaks who play nomic
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01:56:12 <Gregor> Unlike CryptoNomIcon, which is a picture of a super-dog eating.
01:56:53 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: I hate you.
01:57:23 <elliott> Gregor: Especially since it's Kryptwhy do I know this.
01:57:43 <Gregor> lawl, I legitimately didn't know it was spelled that way :P
01:57:52 <Gregor> But did know it was "Crypto"
01:58:24 <elliott> CryPtonoMicon is obviously a guy called Ptono Micon, who's crying.
01:59:14 <elliott> installin' mactex... then bed
02:01:09 * Sgeo likes the idea of "social coding"
02:01:46 <elliott> that sounds like the worst of ideas
02:02:10 <Sgeo> elliott, I think it's GitHub's tagline
02:02:44 <elliott> lhs2tex doesn't work with memoir
02:02:45 <elliott> ! Class memoir Error: Font command \tt is not supported.
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02:08:21 <Sgeo> Am I hallucinating that tagline?
02:09:42 <elliott> it's on github.com's front page
02:09:47 <elliott> eh i'll fix all this lhs2tex stuff tomorrow
02:09:57 <Sgeo> I'm staring at it right now, and don't see it
02:10:03 <Sgeo> I don't see the word social anywhere
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02:11:25 <Sgeo> And I'm not logged on
02:11:29 <Sgeo> But how did I miss that?
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02:34:34 <pikhq_> Sony suing Geohotz and Team fail0verflow in US courts.
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02:34:50 <zzo38> Do you know anything about process colors and spot colors?
02:34:55 <pikhq_> US courts have no jurisdiction over anyone but Geohotz; wonder how that's going to work.
02:34:58 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
02:35:26 <pikhq> Actually, I wonder how they're even going to serve papers.
02:36:44 <pikhq> Oh, they also have jurisdiction over bushing; he's in CA.
02:37:55 <pikhq> comex: Say: a) did you have any involvement in fail0verflow that you are willing to admit to b) are you in the US?
02:38:40 <copumpkin> they don't know fail0verflow membership and it's worth not divulging it at this point
02:39:23 <pikhq> copumpkin: There's a reason I specified "that you are willing to admit to".
02:39:57 <pikhq> As there are quite a few jurisdictions where admitting to that is probably a bad idea.
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02:42:13 <totem> what channel here?
02:42:24 <zzo38> totem: Esoteric computer programming.
02:42:36 <zzo38> (But we discuss a lot of other things too)
02:43:45 <Sgeo> A programming language is [in loose terms] a language that computers can understand. An esoteric programming language is a language that's not designed for practical utility, but for other reasons, such as being painful to use, or interesting in some theoretical sense, etc.
02:43:53 <totem> zzo38, what about sex and malware?
02:44:08 <Sgeo> totem, this channel is off-topic 99% of the time
02:44:21 <zzo38> totem: Do you have questions about sex and malware? Maybe someone can answer them, I don't know.
02:45:15 <Sgeo> Sexual jokes probably occur more frequently than discussion about malware
02:45:19 <totem> wait, i'm reading the link of topic
02:46:24 <zzo38> totem: Yes the wiki has a lot of things about esoteric programming languages. Also the logs has previous discussions in this channel (you are not required to follow the logs, but you can if you want to).
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02:48:35 <pikhq> SCEA is moving to put an immediate halt to the distribution of these "circumvention devices".
02:48:40 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you Wanda?
02:48:50 <Sgeo> Wanda Firebaugh
02:48:58 <pikhq> Someone's about to taste the wrath of the Streisand effect.
02:49:02 <zzo38> pikhq: What circumvention devices, to be specific? And what is SCEA?
02:49:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Sony Computer Entertainment of America.
02:49:29 <Sgeo> I did a Wanda Firebaugh laugh as my FB status when I finally got those assignments done
02:49:41 <pikhq> zzo38: And the circumvention devices are... Not very well specified.
02:49:48 <Sgeo> um... I think I may have just spoiled something
02:49:52 <pikhq> Presumably the private keys that Sony handed to everybody.
02:50:40 <zzo38> If you have the private key can you adjust the boot BIOS?
02:50:57 <pikhq> You can *replace* it.
02:51:03 <copumpkin> the circumvention "device" is the instructions and software
02:51:36 <pikhq> copumpkin: The instructions are well-known details about ECDSA, and the software is an ECDSA signer.
02:52:27 <zzo38> Everyone should replace it with one that does not allow the update service to change the boot BIOS system and instead switches to a secondary level BIOS which is the one which will be updated by Sony.
02:52:44 <pikhq> And arguably the private keys are actually being distributed *by Sony*.
02:53:36 <copumpkin> pikhq: yes, but the legalese doesn't reveal that
02:53:53 <copumpkin> they need to put it in terms that make it sound dangerous and like it can be stopped
02:53:56 <zzo38> And what Sony should do is, make a private key for each individual unit which is written somewhere on the unit. If they do that, whoever in Sony that distributed the universal private key will stop, because that will adjust the Conspiracy level to make them want to stop.
02:54:17 <copumpkin> since the whole point of that is to take geohot's (and the rest of f0f's, ideally) stuff to "stop distribution"
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02:54:26 <pikhq> zzo38: There's also the console private key; the hard drive is encrypted with it.
02:55:03 <Sgeo> Isn't the HD encryption useless or something?
02:55:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: If you get around the signing, *all* the encryption is useless.
02:56:05 <pikhq> You ask the decryption SPU to decrypt stuff for you *and it does*.
02:56:30 <pikhq> As soon as you are executing code on the PS3, you're done.
02:56:38 <pikhq> Sorry. Code from GameOS.
02:56:54 <pikhq> If it wasn't this, then even a simple buffer overflow in a game would really fuck shit up.
02:57:07 <zzo38> pikhq: They should write the console private key on the case, restore the 4 USB ports (instead of having only 2 USB ports), and make it so the console private key can be used anywhere that the universal one can be used and vice versa. And then whichever employee published it, might decide to stop distributing the universal key.
02:57:26 <Sgeo> No employee published it
02:57:30 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't think you understand how the private key got leaked.
02:57:33 <Sgeo> It was a function of the way they were signing stuff
02:57:40 <zzo38> pikhq: You are right I do not understand.
02:57:44 <Sgeo> They signed stuff such that if you got two signed items, you could learn the key
02:58:08 <pikhq> zzo38: ECDSA requires a random number to be used in generating signatures. If you don't do this, then it's trivial to obtain the key used.
02:58:23 <pikhq> zzo38: And Sony used a constant instead of a random number.
02:58:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: Someone made it like that deliberately because they wanted users to have the key, but without telling the other people who work in Sony.
02:58:46 <pikhq> So. If you have two signed things from Sony, you can extract the key.
02:59:07 <Sgeo> How do you go about determining that it was a constant? Do the math as though it was, do it for several signed items, and see if the resulting key is consistent?
02:59:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: The first half of the signature will be constant, as that part is a function of the key, the key length, and the random number.
03:01:05 <pikhq> That part is also believed to be nearly impossible to reverse. However, the remaining half is some basic modular arithmetic done on the key, the random number, and the hash of the message.
03:01:22 <zzo38> Did one of the employees do that deliberately?
03:01:28 <pikhq> zzo38: We do not know.
03:01:41 <pikhq> All we know is that *each and every PS3 executable* is signed like this.
03:01:48 <zzo38> If not, they could correct it on PlayStation 4.
03:02:50 <zzo38> But if so, then my scheme might correct it.
03:03:16 <zzo38> So in addition to changing it to use random numbers instead of constants, make guesses as to whether or not it is deliberate.
03:04:06 <pikhq> The only *possible* scheme for Sony to fix this is to add a new layer of signing to new PS3 executables, add a whitelist for all "legitimate" old PS3 executables, and ship this out in a new firmware update.
03:04:22 <pikhq> And *all* this does is make it so you need to use a modchip instead of a pure software hack.
03:04:46 <zzo38> pikhq: So, everyone should upgrade the BIOS to their own version before Sony can do that.
03:05:11 <Sgeo> When you say executable, what level are you speaking at? The video I watched said that they didn't have the keys for signing games
03:05:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: fail0verflow never bothered to *get* the keys for signing games.
03:05:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: However, *each and every level* in the PS3 chain of trust is vulnerable.
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03:22:48 <Gregor> "A 2009 study published in Boston Review found that nearly 25 percent of non-Jewish Americans blamed Jews for the financial crisis of 2008–2009, with a higher percentage among Democrats than Republicans."
03:26:44 <quintopia> i also blame jews. specific jews. along with specific people of other creeds...
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03:47:08 <pikhq> Sony is also claiming that all of this stuff was done for the sole purpose of "enabling piracy".
03:48:34 <pikhq> And fail0verflow is doing it for the sole purpose of enabling an advertised feature of the hardware.
03:51:29 <pikhq> They are also filing claims under various laws aimed at preventing cracking into other people's computers.
03:51:38 <pikhq> Is... Sony claiming *ownership* of all PS3s?
03:52:32 <pikhq> And finally, they claim that by restraining this action, they can stop piracy on the PS3.
03:52:32 <Sgeo> This reminds me of a webcomic I used to follow
03:53:02 <pikhq> ... Ohhhh holy fuck.
03:53:17 <Sgeo> I don't think Streisand applies when not doing anything would not prevent everyone from knowing about it, which they do anyway
03:53:46 <pikhq> They are also seeking the impoundment of "any and all media in which circumvention devices are stored within the possession, custody, or control of Defendants".
03:54:13 <pikhq> Good thing most of Team fail0verflow is completely outside of jurisdiction.
03:55:10 * pikhq finishes reading the request for temporary restraining order and impoundment.
03:55:11 <Sgeo> Can they be extradited?
03:55:29 <pikhq> Not only no but fuck no.
03:56:05 <pikhq> Oh, it's Sony v. George Hotz, Cantero, Sven Peter, and Does 1 through 100.
03:56:26 <Sgeo> o.O at Does 1 through 100
03:56:36 <pikhq> That is not very rare, though.
03:57:11 <pikhq> Most of team fail0verflow does go by aliases, and it's likely many of them are unknown.
03:57:40 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't have Sgeo so closely associated with my RL name
03:58:20 <pikhq> The request was granted.
03:59:33 <pikhq> Misinterpreted the form for the *suggested* order as being granted; all that there is is a form that a judge could fill out.
03:59:46 <pikhq> Anyways. Finished reading relevant legal documents.
04:00:20 <pikhq> So far, I see two major fail from Sony's lawyers. One, many of the people they are suing are out of jurisdiction. Two, they are suing under claims of the DMCA.
04:00:57 <pikhq> With claims that they did this with the *sole purpose* of enabling illegal copying.
04:01:56 <pikhq> Which they then note in the filing that all defendants have claimed otherwise.
04:02:02 <pikhq> They may have just committed perjury.
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04:05:15 <pikhq> They are also claiming that Geohot committed extortion.
04:05:42 <pikhq> "if you want your next console to be secure, get in touch with me." ← this, namely.
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04:07:23 * Sgeo decides he wants to make a language in which you can write compilers as easily as interpreters
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04:11:39 <pikhq> erk: C0 CE FE 84 C2 27 F7 5B D0 7A 7E B8 46 50 9F 93 B2 38 E7 70 DA CB 9F F4 A3 88 F8 12 48 2B E2 1B
04:11:43 <pikhq> riv: 47 EE 74 54 E4 77 4C C9 B8 96 0C 7B 59 F4 C1 4D
04:11:48 <pikhq> pub: C2 D4 AA F3 19 35 50 19 AF 99 D4 4E 2B 58 CA 29 25 2C 89 12 3D 11 D6 21 8F 40 B1 38 CA B2 9B 71 01 F3 AE B7 2A 97 50 19
04:11:53 <pikhq> R: 80 6E 07 8F A1 52 97 90 CE 1A AE 02 BA DD 6F AA A6 AF 74 17
04:11:58 <pikhq> n: E1 3A 7E BC 3A CC EB 1C B5 6C C8 60 FC AB DB 6A 04 8C 55 E1
04:12:02 <pikhq> K: BA 90 55 91 68 61 B9 77 ED CB ED 92 00 50 92 F6 6C 7A 3D 8D
04:12:07 <pikhq> Da: C5 B2 BF A1 A4 13 DD 16 F2 6D 31 C0 F2 ED 47 20 DC FB 06 70
04:12:18 <pikhq> What a very long and hex-y coughing fit.
04:12:49 <quintopia> those hex numbers are illegal aren't they?
04:13:45 <pikhq> quintopia: You are violating patents thousands of times a day!
04:14:17 * Sgeo is [not actually] tempted to mention pikhq's name
04:14:22 <Sgeo> Note: I'm not an asshole
04:15:17 * pikhq presumes that quintopia *is* a form of Terran life, and thus violates various gene patents constantly
04:15:39 <pikhq> (and yes, it *is* illegal to be alive in the US currently.)
04:16:32 <pikhq> quintopia: Oh, you're a designated representative of a foreign state?
04:16:49 <pikhq> In what capacity, might I ask?
04:16:52 <quintopia> yes. i'm handling negotiations with the arcturans at the moment
04:17:17 <Sgeo> Is my language idea feasible? I mean, if Trusting Trust is feasible, than surely my language is
04:18:12 <Sgeo> Although I'm wondering if the idea is too similar to these VM things
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04:22:18 <Sgeo> Better idea: It should make it decently easy to write your own self-hosting language
04:22:43 <Sgeo> Not sure how that would work, exactly
04:24:33 <pikhq> Sweden suspended mens rea. For men. Pertaining to rape charges.
04:26:03 <pikhq> (mens rea is the legal concept that someone cannot be charged with a crime unless that person had the actual intent to commit said crime.)
04:26:22 <Sgeo> Wait, how would you rape someone without intending to rape someone?
04:27:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: You could be completely unaware that the other party was not in a state to give consent.
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04:30:37 <pikhq> Damned Norwegian, not having fucking crazy people around.
04:32:03 <Sgeo> Ideally, the source for the compiler for my new language should not mention x86 at all.
04:32:08 <Sgeo> Nothing platform-specific
04:32:21 <Sgeo> It should all be Trusting-Trust-ed in
04:34:06 <Sgeo> Although it would make porting it to new platforms a royal bitch
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04:40:37 <zzo38> What DPI does WotC use for cards? I am told they are 133 DPI for process colors and 1200 DPI for text, but whoever told me has never actually seen how they make the cards and was never in WotC ever
04:44:11 <Sgeo> More than 1DPI
04:50:55 <zzo38> But do I have to make TeXnicard to print two files, one for process colors and one for text?
04:54:00 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida ??
04:55:24 <Sgeo> I don't have any girls named Ida
04:55:28 <cheater00> can you have literate literate programming?
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04:56:08 <zzo38> cheater00: Literate literate programming? You probably could, I guess.... but why? Because it is esoteric programming?
04:56:22 <cheater00> no, i mean like literate literate C
04:56:51 <zzo38> cheater00: What is literate literate C?
04:56:56 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that be a subset of literate literate programming?
04:57:21 <Sgeo> As opposed to a barely-legible currently-existing literate C?
04:57:22 <cheater00> zzo38: ????????????????????????????????
04:57:40 <zzo38> cheater00: ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
04:57:52 <cheater00> zzo38: ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
04:57:57 <zzo38> Sgeo: It isn't barely-legible unless you use the wrong printer?
04:57:59 <Sgeo> Begun, the question mark wars have?
04:58:17 <Sgeo> zzo38, by barely-legible I meant hard for humans to understand
04:58:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is not hard to understand if you understand programming.
04:58:46 <Sgeo> cheater00 apparently disagrees
04:59:09 <coppro> proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard
04:59:15 <coppro> (where -, is the not sign)
05:00:18 <zzo38> If you misunderstand then please write more clearly. And then the program/book can be understood.
05:00:31 <coppro> it's not long, I know this
05:00:42 <coppro> but it is excruciating to attempt to work out
05:02:33 <quintopia> logic tables is a nice way to prove something that only has two variables
05:02:36 <zzo38> cheater00: Logic tables will show you too, but probably that is not what he meant.
05:03:04 <cheater00> logic tables will knock on my door and give me a black eye?
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05:03:24 <quintopia> THE LOGIC TABLES WILL GET THEIR VENGEANCE, MWAHAHA
05:04:06 <Sgeo> elliott, when you logread this, your bot tells me to shut up about sex
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05:07:56 <coppro> cheater00: no, this involves syntactically deriving it from a set of axioms
05:09:08 <Sgeo> Are there statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms?
05:09:20 <Sgeo> Is logic expressive enough to express arithmatic?
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05:11:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: Have you seen Godel,Escher,Bach? It is a book maybe it can answer those two of your questions.
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05:12:18 <coppro> Sgeo: there are necessarily
05:12:32 <coppro> if you can prove anything, your logic is inconsistent
05:13:17 <Sgeo> coppro, I thought that was only in systems expressive enough to contain arithmatic?
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05:13:36 <Sgeo> coppro, also, *any true thing
05:14:15 <coppro> Sgeo: it's a bit more complex that that and requires some funkiness
05:19:28 <oklopol> "<elliott> j-invariant: help me design my language :P" <<< HEY! you should be doing drudge work on the CLUE
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05:21:55 <quintopia> there is no one thing you can pinpoint and say "if you can express this, GIT applies, and otherwise it does not." it's a collection of things you need to have to make the proof go through.
05:26:13 <oklopol> "<j-invariant> I just dug this small cave into a hill and trapped the cows in there" <<< YOU ARE A MONSTER
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05:33:43 <oklopol> "<elliott> 00:39:12 <oklopol> has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck?" "<elliott> how embarrassing" <<< not really, i just felt like it'd be a waste of time doing it twice
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05:39:20 <oklopol> but it turned out a bit too hard for by tiny brain, i'm not even sure i completely finished my brainfuck in brainfuck back then
05:53:06 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> Are there statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms?" <<< what if the statement that there are statements in logic that are true but cannot be proven from axioms is true but cannot be proven from axioms?
05:55:02 <pikhq> "The sandwich consists of a single warmed, hollowed-out loaf of bread filled with one jar of creamy peanut butter, one jar of grape jelly, and a pound of bacon." Wikipedia on the Fool's Gold Loaf.
05:55:05 <oklopol> "... <<< not really, i just felt like it'd be a waste of time doing it twice" <<< yes, waste of the world's time
05:55:14 <pikhq> This is produced by a *five star restaurant* in Denver.
05:55:49 <oklopol> that sounds pretty awesome
05:56:08 <oklopol> i don't know what grape jelly is but i suppose it is... grape jelly
05:56:20 <coppro> oklopol: grape with all the fruit taken out
05:57:18 <pikhq> oklopol: You may know it as "jam" or "fruit preserves"; the name for that method of food preservation is kinda regional in English.
05:59:44 <pikhq> The Fool's Gold Loaf originally cost $50; it now costs something closer to $100, and is served with a bottle of Dom Pérignon.
05:59:57 <pikhq> Quite an interesting combination of low and high class there.
06:01:02 <oklopol> i can only assume dom perignon is low class, because a pound of bacon is the highest you can get!
06:03:08 <pikhq> Dom Pérignon is a somewhat expensive vintage champagne.
06:05:44 <oklopol> if i have to be really honest, i had a hunch it was
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07:27:39 <cheater00> coppro: ~a => (a => b) <=> a => (~a => b) <=> ~( a ^ ~(~a => b)) <=> ~(a ^ ~a ^ ~b)
07:28:40 <cheater00> sure, you need to prove the negation of implication.
07:29:48 <cheater00> it depends on what definition of => you use.
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07:46:30 <cheater00> elliott: http://www.dansdata.com/gz084.htm that guy has no idea how rechargable batteries work.
07:47:02 <cheater00> elliott: also he has no idea how gradual consciousness upload should work. the method he presents is inferior to mine.
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08:39:47 <Sgeo> INGLIP HAS BEEN SUMMONED
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08:48:48 <oerjan> <coppro> proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard
08:49:02 <oerjan> dependent on your logic that might _be_ an axiom.
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08:51:09 <oerjan> i've seen (-,a) being considered an abbreviation for a->False, in which case the axiom would probably be False->b
08:53:05 <oerjan> <Sgeo> INGLIP HAS BEEN SUMMONED
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09:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It actually contradicts their lambda calculus article on the list encoding.
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13:05:16 <cheater-> old landlady has accused me of stealing a soap holder.
13:05:16 <fizzie> Perhaps you just have the face of a soap-holder stealer.
13:05:24 <cheater-> i totally need to rip her off for this 5 euro soap holder
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13:48:14 <coppro> cheater-: that sequence you posted does not work from the axioms we have
13:48:31 <coppro> it requires application of semantic meaning
13:48:33 <cheater-> coppro: what have you used instead?
13:48:41 <coppro> cheater-: I haven't worked it out yet
13:48:52 <cheater-> what axioms and theorems do you have so far?
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13:55:48 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic#Example_1._Simple_axiom_system
13:56:17 <coppro> minus the definitions of V and /\
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14:10:15 <cheater-> coppro: define the things defined in the last axiom, and then prove their properties.
14:11:25 <cheater-> with this set of axioms you don't even need to prove what the negation of implication is, since you've got it as a definition.
14:11:39 <j-invariant> 01:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, that article is too stupid to salvage.
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14:12:17 <cheater-> alternatively, take my argument above and replace all instances of ^ (x, y) with the right formula based on => (a, b).
14:12:49 <cheater-> you know how => works, so there should be no problem.
14:13:38 <cheater-> if you're complaining about having <=>, well, then just prove each direction of the equivalence by hand.
14:14:12 <cheater-> it's really about taking a high-level argument and compiling it down to a low-level axiom system
14:14:18 <j-invariant> it should cost 2 cents to post a youtube comment
14:16:22 <fizzie> If only because then everyone would end their comments with "just my 2 cents but..."
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14:29:09 <coppro> and no, <=> is not acceptable directly from the axioms
14:29:15 <coppro> the biconditional isn't even a symbol
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15:33:25 <cheater99> is there a programming paradigm which could be described as "preposterous programming"?
15:33:53 <cheater99> objects make false statements about other objects
15:34:10 <cheater99> then those other objects have to unwind all that fuckedupness
15:35:29 <cheater99> A.doesObjectImplement(B, 'Interface1') |-> True // B does not really implement Interface 1.
15:36:18 <cheater99> B.doesObjectHave(A, 'foo') |-> False // Although A.foo == 24
15:37:17 <cheater99> object C trusts A more than it trusts B
15:37:32 <cheater99> A's strategy is for B to not be used and for D to be used instead
15:38:12 <cheater99> this is because directly asked B would always say "i can do it!"
15:38:28 <cheater99> therefore C asks A which is judgemental
15:39:43 <cheater99> of course, A will also be judgemental of B if it doesn't even have a pointer to B
15:39:53 <cheater99> because A is preposterous, just like B is
15:40:16 <cheater99> alternatively, A could defer judgement to E, which might or might not be telling the truth
15:41:04 <cheater99> and then, A could be doing heavy interpretation of E's answer, too
15:44:18 <cheater99> This got me an interesting idea: Imagine a 2D area with each cell containing an instruction. Place a variable number of 8-sided cubes on the area, each cube has instructions on all sides.
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16:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> http://multimedia.worth1000.com/entries/619892/sagrada-familia-barcelona
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16:05:21 <oklopol> how fun, i just hacked about 500 stone at the server, then hopped, and now everything's back the way it was
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16:09:00 <oklopol> how the hell is that even possible
16:09:11 <oklopol> does ineiros randomly reset the server or something
16:11:48 <oklopol> and now it refuses my connection
16:11:57 <oklopol> and anyway that resetting thing happened again
16:12:14 <oklopol> i don't know and i don't care
16:12:28 <oklopol> well, i suppose no minecraft today
16:13:09 <quintopia> cheater99: find any page about algorithms on wp and edit it to see what they put around the pseudocode
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16:14:13 <oklopol> fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck
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16:15:26 <oklopol> ineiros: can i get a refund on all that work i did? :D
16:16:04 <ineiros> Yes, I'll have 0€ transferred to your account as soon as possible. ;)
16:16:10 <ineiros> There's something wrong there.
16:17:00 <quintopia> myndzi y u no complete sideways guy?
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16:18:12 <Vorpal> ineiros, completely wrong where?
16:19:20 <ineiros> Heh, didn't expect this to happen so soon; should have considered it: As you know, I've been running frequent backups since the last incident.
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16:19:45 <ineiros> I think I ran out of free inodes.
16:20:05 <Vorpal> and I guess you need to fix it then
16:20:10 <oklopol> what kind of 1910's operating system are you running
16:20:11 <ineiros> oklopol: Sorry about the lost work, I'll have the server back in no time.
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16:20:27 <Vorpal> ineiros, I would suggest xfs since it won't run out of inodes ever
16:20:38 <ineiros> Vorpal: Minecraft makes a lot of files, you know.
16:20:47 <oklopol> i have no quarrel with you even just destroying the whole world for fun, it's your server
16:21:06 <oklopol> but if you do fix it fast, yay, since otherwise i'll just go to sleep
16:21:20 <Vorpal> yeah xfs isn't too great at many small files
16:21:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, sleep? this early?
16:21:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, I just had breakfast! (Okay that was a bit late, but still)
16:21:54 <ineiros> oklopol: Server's back on.
16:21:55 <oklopol> well every day i go to sleep 2 hours earlier, until i loop
16:22:13 <oklopol> last night was later, but i'm catching up now
16:22:32 <Vorpal> oklopol, how does that work during non-holidays?
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16:22:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes but you aren't in Europe
16:23:25 <oklopol> Vorpal: it's just been going on this week, and 8-16 has been time awake, but in theory i could just sleep whenever i want, since i don't have that much mandatory stuff at uni
16:23:34 <cheater99> oklopol: write a Preposterous Programming language
16:23:37 <quintopia> so? the point is it is too early for sleep no matter where you are
16:23:39 <oklopol> just any third of every day
16:24:08 <oklopol> okay so there's only two commands, 0 and 1, and each is more preposterous than the last
16:24:19 <oklopol> that's the draft i have now
16:24:42 <oklopol> well you can obviously do brainfuck with that
16:24:48 <quintopia> apply the axiom of infinite improbability
16:24:54 <cheater99> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Preposterous_Programming
16:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> ineiros: can i get a refund on all that work i did? :D ← oooh, what're you doing?
16:25:19 <oklopol> + = 1010001010101110100100101110, - = 1010111100101000100110101001000010101, < = 101110100010101010101011, > = 0101000100010011010110, [ = 0101111, ] = 010110001010101110011001001001
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16:26:08 <oklopol> + you need some additional stuff if you want to nest []'s more than 7 deep, unless all your loops have an even amount of >'s
16:27:12 <oklopol> also you obviously need 01110 in the beginning of the program, if the bf program allocates cells too fast
16:27:51 <oklopol> also i shouldn't have done that because now i desperately want to find that language
16:31:00 <oklopol> okay so that's why the server had gotten so slow
16:31:26 <oklopol> ineiros: i can actually redo my work in no time since time is now 2.5 times faster
16:40:38 * cheater99 watches oklopol gather tiny tiny branches, feathers, and weeds in his beak, one at a time.
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16:56:05 <j-invariant> someone put a bot in haskell that man-in-the-middled folks
16:56:27 <j-invariant> like ti would just randomly PM two people "hey!" and then start transporting messages between
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17:25:32 <cheater99> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=323
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17:48:23 <elliott> 18:37:55 <pikhq> comex: Say: a) did you have any involvement in fail0verflow that you are willing to admit to b) are you in the US?
17:48:26 <elliott> pikhq: (a) I doubt (b) he is
17:49:17 <pikhq> elliott: The thing is, he actually *is* involved in Wii and iPhone hacking...
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17:49:35 <elliott> pikhq: but the fail0verflow thing was hardware-oriented, I think
17:49:42 <elliott> whereas his iphone exploit is sw-based, dunno about the wii one
17:50:05 <pikhq> His major Wii exploit is a buffer overflow in Brawl.
17:50:41 <elliott> http://superuser.com/questions/231273/what-are-the-windows-a-and-b-drives-used-for oh my god i'm 15 how young are you
17:50:44 <pikhq> And the fail0verflow exploit is heavily software-based.
17:50:53 <elliott> does your mother know you are on the internet kid
17:51:07 <elliott> a buffer overflow in C++ code, how did comex find that, must be a genius
17:51:36 <pikhq> The only thing they did to the hardware was wire a flasher to the flash where bits of the firmware are stored.
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17:53:57 <j-invariant> oklopol is cool: I never spent my summer trying to solve a problem like that
17:54:53 <elliott> 18:57:07 <zzo38> pikhq: They should write the console private key on the case, restore the 4 USB ports (instead of having only 2 USB ports), and make it so the console private key can be used anywhere that the universal one can be used and vice versa. And then whichever employee published it, might decide to stop distributing the universal key.
17:55:17 <pikhq> Yeaaah, zzo38 was a bit confused about what the *main* exploit was.
17:55:26 <elliott> 18:58:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: Someone made it like that deliberately because they wanted users to have the key, but without telling the other people who work in Sony.
17:55:28 <pikhq> (fail0verflow found several)
17:55:37 <elliott> I have EVIDENCE for this but you can't see it!
17:55:48 <elliott> Or maybe I'm just making shit up
17:55:56 <pikhq> (and there's probably more: they use C and C++! BUFFER OVERFLOWS, AHOY!)
17:56:17 <elliott> 19:22:48 <Gregor> "A 2009 study published in Boston Review found that nearly 25 percent of non-Jewish Americans blamed Jews for the financial crisis of 2008–2009, with a higher percentage among Democrats than Republicans."
17:56:22 <elliott> Gregor: Shut up, you filthy Jew.
17:57:00 <elliott> 19:56:05 <pikhq> Oh, it's Sony v. George Hotz, Cantero, Sven Peter, and Does 1 through 100.
17:57:07 <elliott> doe, a deer, a hundred female deers
17:57:15 <j-invariant> http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/jews012.jpg
17:58:01 <quintopia> huh, what letter did old windows systems assign to tape drives? :P
17:58:01 <elliott> 20:14:17 * Sgeo is [not actually] tempted to mention pikhq's name
17:58:20 <elliott> quintopia: they ... didn't :P
17:58:40 <Sgeo> Suppose, hypothetically, their lawyers googled for the keys
17:59:13 <j-invariant> elliott: I'm thinking of studying a normalization proof of CoC
17:59:30 <elliott> 20:59:09 <coppro> proving that ((-,a)->(a->b)) is hard
17:59:30 <elliott> 20:59:15 <coppro> (where -, is the not sign)
17:59:31 <elliott> 20:59:45 <quintopia> is it?
17:59:35 <elliott> 21:00:31 <coppro> it's not long, I know this
17:59:37 <elliott> 21:00:42 <coppro> but it is excruciating to attempt to work out
17:59:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, they can have *all* of my savings!
17:59:39 <elliott> lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
17:59:47 <pikhq> Hope you like your $20 profit!
17:59:47 <elliott> BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT PROVING TRIVIAL THINGS IN PROOF SYSTEMS IS HARD
18:00:01 <elliott> now let me get back to proving the principle of explosion
18:00:24 <elliott> 21:12:18 <coppro> Sgeo: there are necessarily
18:00:24 <elliott> 21:12:32 <coppro> if you can prove anything, your logic is inconsistent
18:00:34 <elliott> this is like a trifecta of shut the fuck up
18:00:50 <elliott> 21:13:17 <Sgeo> coppro, I thought that was only in systems expressive enough to contain arithmatic?
18:00:52 <elliott> 21:14:15 <coppro> Sgeo: it's a bit more complex that that and requires some funkiness
18:01:01 <elliott> 21:19:28 <oklopol> "<elliott> j-invariant: help me design my language :P" <<< HEY! you should be doing drudge work on the CLUE
18:01:56 <cheater99> elliott: i've been riding around in a sinclair a lot lately
18:02:26 <elliott> j-invariant: um cled is an editor for clue code, as i keep trying to tell you :P
18:02:45 <cheater99> the outer hull is made like a water bike :p
18:03:09 <cheater99> they had to relocate it to the area around my front door because of the ballet school taking place
18:03:17 <elliott> 23:46:30 <cheater00> elliott: http://www.dansdata.com/gz084.htm that guy has no idea how rechargable batteries work.
18:03:22 <elliott> ugh wtf is sgeo tlking about now
18:03:40 <cheater99> elliott: yeah, he says charging up a battery for 5 secs should not show it as completely charged
18:03:49 <elliott> 05:48:14 <coppro> cheater-: that sequence you posted does not work from the axioms we have
18:03:49 <elliott> 05:48:31 <coppro> it requires application of semantic meaning
18:03:55 <elliott> cheater99: i wasn't agreeing with you
18:04:17 <cheater99> he doesn't know how the measurement is made and why it is going to be showing up as full
18:04:27 <elliott> doesn't change the fact that it is /wrong/
18:04:30 <elliott> from a human point of view
18:04:37 <cheater99> no, he subscribes to some sort of conspiracy theory
18:05:03 <cheater99> he doesn't even remotely mention that it's wrong because, hey, it's a fucking battery with a non-linear charging process
18:05:15 <elliott> 06:29:09 <coppro> and no, <=> is not acceptable directly from the axioms
18:05:15 <elliott> 06:29:15 <coppro> the biconditional isn't even a symbol
18:05:15 <elliott> 06:29:19 <coppro> and we don't have /\
18:05:19 <elliott> OH GOD YOU HAVE TO WRITE OUT THREE SIMPLE DEFINITIONS HOLY SHIT
18:05:42 <cheater99> elliott: we have had to write out the definition of False once.
18:08:06 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:10:34 <cheater99> i didn't know elliott's tie was computerized
18:15:46 <fizzie> Misread "elliott's tie was compromised"; didn't know they were hacking ties already.
18:20:07 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:22:12 -!- hiato has joined.
18:27:05 <cheater99> fizzie: so you think elliott has ties to hacking?
18:27:49 -!- drakhan has joined.
18:28:20 <Sgeo> drakhan is obviously a Sony lawyer
18:29:14 -!- elliott has joined.
18:29:21 <elliott> http://tuomov.iki.fi/ is back up — but without his blog.
18:29:59 <elliott> Oh, http://tuomov.bitcheese.net/b/ seems to be a partial archive.
18:30:13 <Sgeo> elliott, what do you have against me saying the word sex?
18:30:21 <elliott> A filter must be malfunctioning.
18:30:24 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about sex!
18:30:42 <elliott> It decides what to yell at you for based on what you say + the regexp, so hmm.
18:31:12 <Sgeo> It also hates fantasy
18:31:17 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about your fantasies!
18:31:37 <elliott> Fixed the first report. It'll come into action, uh, ... whenever I restart it which is rare.
18:35:59 <elliott> sup is me trying to get ubuntu booting
18:38:39 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:44:59 <pikhq> ... Sony is claiming that the court has jurisdiction because github.com is in California.
18:48:55 <pikhq> Sony is also claiming *ownership* of all PS3s.
18:49:48 <pikhq> Page 21, line 9. "SCEA possesses an ownership interest in the PS3 System."
18:49:51 <oklopol> like, people who have bought a ps3 actually just have an expensive loan console?
18:50:04 <pikhq> From the complaint.
18:50:23 <pikhq> oklopol: They are claiming that this hack was *trespassing*.
18:50:28 <oklopol> seriously? :D that was a joke :P
18:50:41 <oklopol> i figured you actually meant something else
18:50:50 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:51:03 <pikhq> "Defendants have appropriated SCEA's property at little or no cost to them."
18:51:55 <quintopia> i'd have to see the TaCoS on PS3 purchases to believe that...
18:52:16 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:52:30 <cheater00> <quintopia> i'd have to see the TaCoS on PS3 purchases to believe that... < what does that mean?
18:52:42 <pikhq> And they are also claiming that this hack consists of cracking into someone else's computer.
18:52:56 <pikhq> And that it's a violation of terms of service.
18:53:07 <pikhq> Said terms, you need not actually *agree* to.
18:53:16 <pikhq> It's the terms of service for PSN.
18:53:45 <quintopia> if there is some license in there that says "by turning this system on you agree that you are leasing SCEA's property for an indefinite period and will not modify etc. SCEA's property" then they can probably get away with that...
18:54:47 <pikhq> quintopia: Because the US's laws are motherfucking insane.
18:55:15 -!- j-invariant has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:56:49 <quintopia> what do you think of this thing: http://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/
19:06:08 -!- j-invariant has joined.
19:09:09 <Gregor> quintopia: It's ... big.
19:09:35 <ais523> haha, reddit managed to get into a Scala vs. Clojure flamewar
19:09:39 <ais523> that's one I didn't expect to see
19:09:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:10:33 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/f07sn/scala_effective_java/c1ccuk6
19:10:51 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:12:03 <cheater00> i remember trolling someone in one of the php channels by saying that scala runs in java
19:12:22 -!- j-invariant has joined.
19:12:27 <ais523> oh, there's a php vs. gcc row going on at the moment
19:12:54 <ais523> because PHP's strtod bug was using undefined behaviour in C89, which gcc exploits for better optimisations
19:13:35 <ais523> here's a php advocate in the war: http://blog.andreas.org/display?id=9
19:13:52 <Sgeo> Why would someone rely on undefined behavior for something crucial?
19:13:56 <Sgeo> By accident, I guess?
19:14:10 <Vorpal> <ais523> oh, there's a php vs. gcc row going on at the moment <-- wait what
19:14:21 <ais523> the funny thing is, the PHP code in question was a copy of a strtod function in use elsewhere
19:14:22 <Vorpal> that is like comparing apples and bookshelfs
19:14:28 <Vorpal> not even apples and pears
19:14:31 <ais523> and it had a big comment saying "this code does not work on x87"
19:14:35 <ais523> and guess where PHP tried to use it?
19:14:46 <ais523> Vorpal: it's about whose fault a bug was
19:14:57 <ais523> the PHP side is claiming it's a compiler bug, the gcc side's claiming it's a program bug
19:15:03 <Vorpal> ais523, they tried to use it on x86?
19:15:10 <cheater00> why doesn't that idiot show his last name anywhere on the page
19:15:17 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed, with x87 instructions as the floating point emu
19:15:19 <cheater00> could his family not afford a last name?
19:15:33 <Vorpal> ais523, but uh what did it expect?
19:15:42 <Vorpal> ais523, that x87 did wronfg
19:16:07 <ais523> Vorpal: oh, x87 is more accurate than a normal C double
19:16:20 <Vorpal> ais523, yes so why did they use long double then
19:16:25 <ais523> they didn't, they used double
19:16:32 <Vorpal> ais523, then I don't see...
19:16:38 <ais523> but assumed that a floating point number would necessarily compare equal to itself, if not a NaN
19:16:48 <ais523> that isn't actually the case in C
19:17:16 <ais523> because you might be comparing a value stored in memory with a value stored in the x87 registers
19:17:26 <ais523> and the x87 registers are more accurate
19:17:35 <ais523> copying a value from the registers to memory and back can thus change its value
19:17:43 <Vorpal> ais523, but these days you always use SSE
19:17:50 <Vorpal> unless you use long double
19:17:51 <ais523> C99 specifies that you can't do that sort of thing; C89 doesn't
19:18:03 <ais523> (don't ask me why, I didn't set its compiler flags)
19:18:04 <Vorpal> ais523, unlikely on x86-64
19:18:23 <ais523> this is presumably x86-32
19:19:06 <ais523> anyway, I wouldn't really expect a floating point number to necessarily compare equal to itself, floating point is that insane
19:19:38 <ais523> if the PHP devs did, they probably insufficiently understand floating point in C (not really surprising; /most/ people insufficiently understand floating point in C, including probably me)
19:20:22 <cheater00> i bet you sufficiently understand floating point in c.
19:20:47 <Vorpal> cheater00, are you sufficiently sure of that
19:21:13 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway C99 guarantees this doesn't it?
19:21:19 <Vorpal> and I wouldn't use C89 any more
19:21:21 <fizzie> There's that article, "what every computer scientist should know about floating-point numbers" or some-such.
19:21:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, I read it
19:22:27 <ais523> C99 does indeed guarantee that doubles are cut down to 64 bits of precision before being compared, by default
19:22:36 <ais523> there's a bunch of defines that can be used to tweak the behaviour
19:22:51 <ais523> but I can't remember whether it's in a program, or just fixed defines that report what the floating-point behaviour is
19:23:03 <Vorpal> ais523, yes and C99 is older than 10 years. C89/C90 is older than 20 years. Surely it is time to move on?
19:23:10 <zzo38> There are things I do not like in C99.
19:24:16 <fizzie> C1x is just around the corner too.
19:24:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are the news in it?
19:24:37 <fizzie> For some values of "corner".
19:26:33 <cheater00> c1x is fully functional with type inference
19:26:43 <fizzie> The latest draft is not very dramatic. Multithreading and Unicode things, gets dropped finally, official compile-time asserts...
19:26:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, oooh compile time asserts
19:27:25 <Vorpal> cheater00, sounds like c++202x
19:27:43 <fizzie> It's hopefully prettier than the existing hacky preprocessor tricks.
19:27:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, one can only hope
19:28:06 <fizzie> That make a negative-sized array with a funny name or other things like that.
19:28:44 <zzo38> fizzie: As part of a structure, so that it does not use up any memory at run-time.
19:29:09 <fizzie> Oh, and a exclusive-create mode letter ("x") for fopen, and that anonymous structure/union thing that I think many compilers already do.
19:29:25 <fizzie> zzo38: Sure, but the error messages are still a bit suboptimal.
19:29:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, the anon structure is pretty useless
19:30:01 <zzo38> fizzie: You can make the error message display something specific using #line directive, maybe?
19:30:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, how will it do multithreading I wonder
19:32:15 -!- elliottu has joined.
19:32:33 <elliottu> does anyone know how the ubuntu installer calculates how big a swap partition to create?
19:34:02 <Gregor> I have a composer friend who found out about a contest for the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible to write a composition using its text as the words. I'm trying to convince him to write and submit something using some of the less tasteful passages encouraging slave ownership, rape, etc :P
19:34:08 -!- zzo38 has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
19:34:48 <elliottu> King James: too hardcore for you.
19:35:50 <zzo38> Gregor: I suppose you can use any passages, you can use less tasteful passage for part of it too, but you can also use other passages. Some of the verses are just the names so you can use that, too. I assume deuterocanonical/apocrypha are disallowed?
19:36:16 <Gregor> Has to be from the KJB, can't be from psalms or songs.
19:36:30 <elliottu> Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis.
19:36:46 <elliottu> The most inspirational song EVER
19:36:51 <quintopia> i think a song that's just an endless droning of that section in genesis that's all A begat B begat C begat D begat E begat F begat etc. could be amusing
19:37:10 <quintopia> well, great minds think alike and all
19:37:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Very traditionally, I think. Thread-local storage type declarators, and then a <threads.h> with vaguely pthready creation/mutex/condvar options; and then atomic operations -- more than just sig_atomic_t -- for lockless things.)
19:38:07 <elliottu> quintopia: Loop it, add an irritating your-speakers-exploded-but-now-it's-silent-aand-repeat-steadily beat, and echo the fuck out of it.
19:38:28 <zzo38> Gregor: So, Psalms is also disallowed.
19:38:44 <zzo38> What kind of music/scales/temperaments are used in Biblical times? Can you make a music using the same kind?
19:39:37 <quintopia> elliottu: it should also be done in the voice of that guy from butthole surfers that did the spoken word stuff in "my brother's wife"
19:40:54 <pikhq> Clearly it should be Song of Solomon. Mmm, biblical erotica.
19:41:43 <elliottu> I hate how god damn useless #ubuntu is.
19:42:10 <coppro> who is elliottu and why can I see him talk
19:42:26 <pikhq> elliottu is elliott with a goatee. So you know he's evil.
19:42:29 <elliottu> coppro: GEE I APOLOGISE FOR USING A LIVECD
19:42:38 <elliottu> coppro: just fuck off, stop being childish, and reignore me if I do something so INSULTING
19:42:55 <Gregor> OK, new idea: One singer sings the X-begat-Y section softly, while two singers sing a selection of passages that directly contradict each other, at the same time.
19:43:06 <elliottu> coppro: Talking about /ignores: it makes you cool.
19:43:12 <elliottu> Wait, wait, no, I forgot: It makes you stupid.
19:43:42 <copumpkin> yeah, the worst thing about people worth ignoring
19:43:52 <copumpkin> are the people who feel the need to advertise that they can't hear what the ignored person is saying
19:45:00 <pikhq> copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying.
19:45:04 <pikhq> Thereby defeating the point.
19:45:54 <elliottu> Oh well, 8 gigs of swap should be ENOUGH FOR EVERYBODY
19:46:30 <quintopia> Gregor: when you say "one singer sings" you mean "one beatboxer beatboxes" right?
19:46:49 <Gregor> FIVE GOLDEN RIIIIIIIIINGS
19:47:04 <elliottu> OH LOL LOOK IM INSTALLIN NOW ->
19:47:24 <elliottu> i'll come back under a different nick just to see coppro be whiny again
19:47:29 <cheater00> elliottu: OMG THE CD DRIVE IS THERE?
19:47:29 -!- elliottu has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:53:03 -!- variable has joined.
19:53:19 <zzo38> Do you, or do you not, "do you, or do you knot"?
19:53:32 <quintopia> [A-Za-z]{8,} matches any alphabetic character repeated at least 8 times in a row, yes?
19:54:01 * quintopia uses people instead of regex checkers
19:54:21 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you want the same letter repeated or different letter?
19:54:51 <zzo38> Can you use back references?
19:55:05 <quintopia> any legal perl regex is fine i think
19:55:38 <zzo38> Then see if using back references will do?
19:55:51 <quintopia> now i have to look up how to do that again :/
19:57:58 <variable> quintopia, that will be the same as [A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z][A-Za-z]
19:58:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Very traditionally, I think. Thread-local storage type declarators, and then a <threads.h> with vaguely pthready creation/mutex/condvar options; and then atomic operations -- more than just sig_atomic_t -- for lockless things.) <-- ah
19:59:23 <quintopia> variable: so how about ([a-zA-Z])\1{7,}
19:59:38 <Vorpal> <pikhq> copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying. <-- that sounds like elliott
19:59:52 <variable> quintopia, I think that would work
20:00:23 <copumpkin> in dual-land, copumpkin carve you!
20:00:37 * variable is a const - I can't be carved
20:00:43 <Vorpal> copumpkin, he could still carve you. not as in cutting but as in wanting
20:01:03 <Vorpal> copumpkin, I'm just too sleepy
20:01:25 <Vorpal> it is tim to sleep soon
20:01:51 <Vorpal> except my sleep schedule is fucked up
20:02:51 <Sgeo> Vorpal, join the club
20:03:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?
20:03:22 <Sgeo> Although it's getting better... no it's not
20:03:23 <Vorpal> as long as it is fixed to next week
20:03:39 <Sgeo> It's alternating between going to sleep at a normal time, and staying up all night
20:04:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo, mine is just moving around all over the place
20:04:11 <Sgeo> I need to be awake Friday. I don't feel like meeting up with her when I'm too tired to care
20:04:13 <Vorpal> with no reasonable pattern
20:04:24 <Sgeo> I want to be awake when I'm around her
20:05:02 <quintopia> variable: highlight me with a message containing an expression that regex should match
20:05:08 <Sgeo> I don't think it's at the point where it can be called "love" yet
20:05:30 <Sgeo> I'm also not sure if she's that interested in me. Or, well, she gives mixed signals somtimes
20:06:04 <Sgeo> Vorpal, if you dropped the h, you'd sound like zzo38
20:06:23 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes but I'm not him
20:10:50 <variable> quintopia, oh sorry - I went away for a bit
20:10:57 <variable> let me play with some things and I'll let you kno
20:11:19 <ais523> hmm, PHP has 13 different sort functions: http://us2.php.net/manual/en/array.sorting.php
20:14:54 <Vorpal> ais523, and none of them are stable
20:14:58 <Vorpal> also uh, random sort!?
20:17:00 <variable> Vorpal, I noticed that too - it twas funny
20:21:04 <ais523> also, all of them are in-plae
20:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I wish I could make XChat /away me when I close the lid of my laptop.
20:23:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:23:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, PHP has a sort function for user-defined orderings
20:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought PHP had either no or extremely crappy support for first-class functions.
20:25:46 <fizzie> They added closures in PHP 5.3.0.
20:25:53 <cheater00> oh no, it had that long before that
20:26:12 <ais523> well, you can use second-class functions for sort callbacks just fine
20:26:16 <cheater00> which until 5.3.0 was a string containing function name
20:26:35 <cheater00> or an array containing object or class name as the 0th index and function name as the first
20:26:54 <fizzie> Right, they just added proper (or I don't know how proper they are, but at least proper-looking) anonymous functions in 5.3.0.
20:27:07 <cheater00> yeah, and they started calling them closures
20:27:18 <cheater00> because they're confused about computarrzzz
20:27:42 <cheater00> and then they added the use() cancer so that they can actually be closures.
20:29:35 <fizzie> They also have a rather strange sort of nested functions; if you do function foo() { function bar() { ... } } then you can bar() from anywhere, but only after calling foo() once.
20:31:43 <cheater00> yea, it's like using a variable in a lambda without lambdaing it
20:32:15 <cheater00> f = \x.x+y <==> f = function(x) use(y) { return x+y; }
20:32:38 <Sgeo> Crap, just saw some false information, than a link to Snopes discrediting it. My understanding though, is that if you receive information that you only mentally discredit later, it still gets stuck in the mind as "true"
20:32:53 <cheater00> f = \x.x+y <==> $f $= $function($x) $use($y) ${ $return $x$+$y$; $}
20:33:29 <fizzie> Oh, and even pre 5.3.0 (since 4.0.1) they had this thing for anonymous functions: string create_function(string $args , string $code)
20:33:43 <fizzie> You give it a bit of code as a string, and it defines a randomly named new function and returns the name.
20:34:00 <fizzie> Then you can pass the new name into something that takes a callback.
20:34:17 <cheater00> they also do a shitload via eval()
20:35:33 <zzo38> create_function will waste memory though, there is no way to delete a function in PHP, or to override one which exists.
20:35:48 <Sgeo> zzo38, ooh, like Forth!
20:35:50 <zzo38> However, it is possible to pass an array with an object, as a callback. So you can do like that instead.
20:36:00 <Sgeo> </deliberate-misunderstanding-of-forth>
20:37:27 <cheater00> zzo38: php wasting memory? CAN'T BE
20:37:56 * Sgeo wonders if Objective-J is decent
20:38:06 <zzo38> cheater00: PHP is also slow. (However, it is fast enough to run my IRC client, and it actually does this well.)
20:39:45 <Sgeo> cheater00, meet zzo38.
20:40:03 -!- ellioppro has joined.
20:40:15 <ellioppro> it installed, what are the chances
20:40:21 <ellioppro> and i only had to boot into a non-graphical environment and plug in ethernet _once_
20:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ellioppro, when did you two merge into a superorganism.
20:41:11 <ellioppro> Phantom_Hoover: I'm irritating coppro by circumventing his ignore, since he keeps doing the age-old IRC dickwaddery of bringing up that I'm ignored constantly.
20:41:18 <cheater00> zzo38: do you have an eval command there?
20:41:51 <cheater00> ellioppro: IS SUPERDUPERDRIVE YOURS???
20:42:04 <zzo38> cheater00: There is a single eval command in the program, but it is used only for parsing the initialization file.
20:42:06 <Sgeo> ellioppro, remember when you ignored me? You were furious when I curcumvented it
20:42:17 <Sgeo> And you kept reminding me that I was on ignore
20:42:21 <cheater00> zzo38: can i somehow store numbers into your php process?
20:42:22 <zzo38> And only lines starting with <
20:42:45 <Sgeo> How many times did you mention that, due to the ignore, things were better?
20:42:46 <zzo38> cheater00: What do you mean? The eval does not take any input remotely.
20:43:02 <cheater00> zzo38: yeah ok.. but say i wanted to store a value that is later kept in the memory of your php process
20:43:17 <Sgeo> ellioppro, more than that
20:43:25 <Sgeo> Unless my memory is failing
20:43:45 <Sgeo> Do you remember the dates?
20:43:51 <cheater00> Sgeo: lies, ellioppro never ignores anyone
20:44:16 <ellioppro> download faster, you fucking computer
20:44:22 <cheater00> welllllll, except for Phantom_Hoover
20:44:23 <zzo38> cheater00: As far as I know you cannot do that. (You can send things and it is stored in the scrollback of PuTTY)
20:44:40 <zzo38> (PHIRC does use PuTTY to actually display everything in colors and so on)
20:44:58 <ellioppro> 12:32:38 <Sgeo> Crap, just saw some false information, than a link to Snopes discrediting it. My understanding though, is that if you receive information that you only mentally discredit later, it still gets stuck in the mind as "true"
20:45:02 <cheater00> zzo38: do you get any commands that respond to triggers or something?
20:45:04 <ellioppro> Sgeo: OH MY GOD YOU WILL HOLD THIS MISUNDERSTANDING FOREVER
20:45:18 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: ellioppro is not his friend
20:45:41 <zzo38> cheater00: The program will respond automatically to CTRL+A commands: FINGER PING TIME USERINFO VERSION
20:45:47 -!- ellioppro has changed nick to copprelliott.
20:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater00, candidly, I don't think he's too fond of cheater00 either.
20:46:15 <copprelliott> maybe he has .*e.*l.*l.*i.*o.*t.*t.* on ignore
20:46:26 <zzo38> (But only if /SET ANSWER + is set)
20:46:32 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: copprelliott is very fond of cheater00
20:47:05 <cheater00> zzo38: you should have at least one command that takes the message, stores it as a number, and prints it or something
20:47:28 <zzo38> cheater00: Why is such a thing necessary?
20:47:39 <cheater00> it's necessary. no explanation given.
20:48:14 <zzo38> Here is the code, you can look at it, and make your own modifications if that is what you want to do: http://sprunge.us/QeLb
20:49:59 <copprelliott> it doesn't seem to do any multitouch, prolly i need another driver
20:50:11 <cheater00> copprelliott: also, make sure your cpu is running on normal speed
20:50:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
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20:50:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:50:30 <copprelliott> i'd prefer to keep the fan down + conserve power usage.
20:52:13 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:52:25 <cheater-> because mine always boots into slowest_mode
20:53:22 <copprelliott> the cpu scales up as it is used, i see no issue
20:54:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:54:36 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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20:57:19 <copprelliott> i have a portable, unplugged USB drive to put ubuntu on any macbook air! kinda like a usb stick, except gigantic. :P
20:58:45 -!- copprelliott has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:02:52 <zzo38> What is the difference of cheater00 cheater99 cheater- ?
21:03:40 <zzo38> The service provider is all the same.
21:04:25 <cheater99> truly, your cunning is remarkable.
21:04:34 <pikhq> WE HAVE A NON-TRINITARIAN HERE
21:05:18 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/67468/ Japan has improved upon the slip-n-slide.
21:05:57 <oklopol> "<elliottu> Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis." <<< surely modern bibles just have a few diagrams for these
21:07:32 <pikhq> Gregor: The text is even more WTF.
21:07:42 <zzo38> oklopol: Modern Bibles are the same they just have different translations. Some also have footnotes, and some have deutrocanonical books, too.
21:07:54 <Gregor> pikhq: Translate for us :P
21:07:59 <zzo38> Some might have diagrams, though.
21:08:36 <pikhq> Gregor: "*something I can't read* Crank 2009! Milk! Construction! Explosions!" on the left.
21:08:46 <oklopol> "<copumpkin> are the people who feel the need to advertise that they can't hear what the ignored person is saying" <<< no i think it's even worse when the ignored people start telling the ignorers how childish they are... wait, i'm even worse
21:09:37 <Gregor> This event is known to cause what some call a "milk explosion"
21:09:54 <pikhq> Gregor: "September~October 'The Autumn of Sports' An example photograph‽" on the right.
21:11:04 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, I completely misparsed a bit of that. s/Milk/Tits/
21:12:49 -!- elliott has joined.
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21:13:00 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?" <<< good morning
21:13:16 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest78959.
21:13:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:13:52 <Guest78959> 13:05:57 <oklopol> "<elliottu> Gregor: Omg, make him do another one with the whole "begat" bullshit from Genesis." <<< surely modern bibles just have a few diagrams for these
21:14:15 <pikhq> Stick it on a time line. :)
21:14:48 -!- Guest78959 has changed nick to elliott.
21:14:50 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
21:14:50 -!- elliott has joined.
21:15:39 <Gregor> elliott: Aren't you glad you've hidden your IP, which is 91.104.236.154?
21:16:23 <Gregor> My hostname is codu.org. Jealous much?
21:16:40 <zzo38> Maybe the reason you put "@unaffiliated/elliott" is to see if you are login to the services??
21:17:02 <elliott> Gregor: You should set up a fake ident daemon (there's tons of them) on codu.org, and configure it to tell the server that your username is whatever your email username is.
21:17:09 <elliott> Gregor: So your hostname would be your email address.
21:17:16 <elliott> THIS IS M Y IDEA (C) ME FOREVER--FOREVER
21:17:43 <zzo38> I want to put my hostname "zzo38computer.cjb.net" (it does resolve to the computer I connected from) but they will not do that.
21:18:37 <zzo38> elliott: The Freenode.
21:18:39 <oklopol> lol @ elliott claiming he never repeatedly told someone they were ignored :E
21:19:02 <elliott> oklopol, oh i don't deny that
21:19:08 <elliott> i just deny i did it the last time i ignored sgeo
21:19:37 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know.
21:21:02 <oklopol> http://9gag.com/gag/67468/ <<< but what if you accidentally have an erection and get stuck between the girls
21:21:16 <oklopol> that would be embarrassing
21:21:18 <cheater99> are you going to install every language possible on your ubuntu now?
21:21:39 <cheater99> oklopol: what if the erection gets stuck between the girls?
21:22:15 <ais523> elliott: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf
21:22:41 <elliott> ais523: yay, another paper i can't understand
21:22:43 <oklopol> "<elliott> i just deny i did it the last time i ignored sgeo" <<< oh well possible
21:22:50 <ais523> elliott: it's the one I wanted to link you to earlier but couldn't find a legal copy of
21:22:55 <elliott> but i haven't, yet, expended the effort to
21:23:07 <elliott> ais523: i like how you have to work to find a legal version of your own paper.
21:23:16 <ais523> the bottom of page 7 is amusing
21:23:20 <oklopol> i don't actually recall you doing that with Sgeo, but you have definitely done it! maybe it was cool back then tho, dunno
21:23:51 <ais523> note that that isn't just "one such example", but the simplest known example
21:24:01 <ais523> that took quite a bit of esoprogramming to find
21:24:11 <elliott> I WISH I COULD SIDUHGDSFGJKHGSJKFGHLSKJFLHL;GKFDJGDSKDS SELECT TEXT
21:24:37 <cheater99> ais523: what uni are you on again?
21:25:39 <elliott> apparently the channel is better without me, i.e. the channel is almost silent
21:25:40 <oklopol> i was just thinking about stuff and realized i might know how to prove this thing i've spent like 40 million hours trying to prove... and then i quickly stopped thinking about it before realizing what the reason for *this* idea not working will be, tl;dr, i can never think about math again :(
21:26:25 <cheater99> haha oklopol, you are reduced to liberal arts!!!!!!
21:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> 11:45:00 <pikhq> copumpkin: And then log read to hear what the ignored person is saying.
21:26:52 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to play Quadrapassel until you tell me how to get selection working.
21:27:07 <oklopol> or maybe i need to change my branch of math to something far enough
21:27:13 <zzo38> Get selection working on what?
21:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want to be able to ignore the dross someone comes out with 90% of the time and get context when someone else actually pays them any heed, it's worthwhile.
21:28:13 <oklopol> what's http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf? opening pdf's from the internets is just so much work
21:28:35 <elliott> seq : com × exp → exp is sequencing of command with expression, denoted by “;” when used in infix
21:28:35 <elliott> notation, resulting in an expression with side effects;
21:28:54 <elliott> ais523: "first we build this comprehensive cage to put side-effects in, then we poke a big hole in it"
21:28:57 <ais523> oklopol: my second paper as a PhD student
21:29:10 <ais523> elliott: it's meant to be a simple imperative language
21:29:13 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i only use ignore in order to be in control of the times of looking at messages, so i don't pass out from anger when some retard is telling me how math works
21:29:18 <ais523> we didn't cage side-effects at all, except via variable scope
21:29:53 <oklopol> and therefore actually look at all the messages later
21:29:57 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i only use ignore in order to be in control of the times of looking at messages, so i don't pass out from anger when some retard is telling me how math works ← I use it to get rid of people who insist on butting into irrelevant conversations.
21:30:21 <elliott> I imagine a 38 is involved somehow.
21:30:54 <oklopol> ais523: oh cool, then i might open it actually
21:31:08 <ais523> unlike the one before, I actually did most of the actual research that lead to that paper
21:31:09 <elliott> hmm, what's a good way to figure out what touchpad driver I am using?
21:31:14 <ais523> although it was only about half written by me
21:31:14 <oklopol> we've been talking publishing some of my stuff once i get my master's finished
21:31:40 <oklopol> so currently publications are like the biggest thing in my life, you're basically a god now
21:31:54 <ais523> in academia, publications are all anyone cares about, it seems
21:32:16 * elliott goes about installing Chrome
21:32:21 <elliott> sorry, Firefox; you're too hateful
21:33:28 <elliott> i have a feeling Ubuntu is going to be able to do almost, but not entirely, not what i want with my touchpad
21:34:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:34:37 <oklopol> ais523: i don't really have the same experience, people are so damn modest... it's like they don't even pay attention to what they do... for instance today person X said he has book Y in his shelf, and prof Z said "oh, that's mine"; i asked "you mean yours as in you're the author, or as in you own it?", he said he owned it. ten minutes later, he looks at the cover and goes "oh right, i actually did write this"
21:35:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:35:10 <oklopol> (he was a coauthor and it was more than 10 years old but anyway)
21:35:19 <pikhq> Ah good. David Touretzky is getting involved in the PS3 BS.
21:35:35 <zzo38> Why is David Touretzky?
21:36:58 <pikhq> Professor of CS at Carnegie Mellon. Quite involved in the DeCSS litigation and a pain in the ass for the Church of Scientology.
21:37:05 <elliott> great ... i need to install Flash
21:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i aspire to be prof Z ← I recall a story about one of the Cayley-era mathematicians who told someone the first thing in his proof was wrong, and then the person showed him a proof that he himself had done and forgotten about.
21:37:20 <pikhq> (he's responsible for many, many leaks of CoS doctrine)
21:37:36 <cheater99> oklopol: that's just false humbleness
21:38:08 <cheater99> elliott: i have something good for you
21:38:19 <cheater99> elliott: there's a ff plugin that installs the RIGHT version of flash for you
21:38:36 <elliott> what bullshit is that, i have a package manager
21:38:41 <elliott> it has the 64-bit flash in it
21:38:44 <cheater99> yea, the one from the package manager sucks dicks
21:38:53 <elliott> it's the native 64-bit one now
21:39:01 <elliott> cheater99: umm, it's the 32-bit one that did that
21:39:08 <cheater99> or you could just install flash-aid
21:39:36 <elliott> right, flash-aid has secret access to a magical adobe version that fixes everything
21:39:46 <elliott> unlike the new 64-bit native one that Adobe released only a month or two ago
21:40:00 <elliott> ok you're clearly trolling at this juncture
21:40:15 <elliott> also, i don't use firefox.
21:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It has the "Clear" button right where you'd expect the "Close" button.
21:42:03 <oklopol> "<cheater99> oklopol: that's just false humbleness" <<< possibly, but it was some sort of survey or dunno, name was something like automata theory 134; actually may just have been a collection of papers, and he mentioned he was an author as a joke, since he happened to be compiling it now that i think about it :D
21:42:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: /ignore foo*!*@* all
21:42:36 <cheater99> elliott: you're well versed in the ignore
21:43:10 <oklopol> elliott: i'm going to ignore you now because i don't like the way you think
21:44:29 <oklopol> i mean it's not the things you say, or the way you say it, it's just what i can tell from the order and structure in which the facts come out, you think in a very insulting way.
21:44:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I'm going to ignore you because I think there are too many Finns on the channel and I can't handle all of them.
21:44:59 <oklopol> that's 100% understandable
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21:45:25 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Then ignore *!*@*.fi ? Probably not the best idea, though.
21:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I am going to ignore you because you are English and I'm contractually obligated to hate you.
21:46:10 <zzo38> We can all type in English.
21:46:23 <oklopol> there was a finntroll on #math once, and TRWBW was like "k, there goes that country forever"
21:46:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | I'll suck up ALL your fleep, baby! | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
21:46:55 <cheater99> elliott: i'm going to ignore you because you keep on calling me a troll, and i don't like honest people
21:47:04 <elliott> i forget, is trwbw the bad one or the good one
21:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I am going to ignore you because you are fairly English.
21:47:22 <oklopol> elliott: i don't know because i don't know who the other one you mean is
21:47:27 <cheater99> trwbw is the bad one and good one at the same time
21:47:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: But I'm a Jew! A filthy, filthy Semite!
21:47:40 <elliott> i'm just asking whether he's bad or good
21:47:42 <oklopol> trwbw is a very special person
21:47:52 <zzo38> cheater99: O, yes, you prefer cheating, isn't it? Well, I want you to please stop cheating. (I will not force you to stop, or put you on ignore, though.)
21:48:05 -!- elliott has changed nick to coprophiliac.
21:48:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no amount of Jewishness can compensate for being English!
21:48:30 <cheater99> zzo38: i will put you on ignore because you refuse to put me on ignore. i will unignore you just as soon as i find out you have ignored me.
21:49:10 <oklopol> coprophiliac: way to build on linking that scat porn thing
21:49:32 <cheater99> oklopol: i will ignore you because i will ignore you
21:49:56 -!- coprophiliac has changed nick to tarski.
21:50:02 <oklopol> so could everyone here give me their addresses in pm
21:50:03 -!- tarski has changed nick to elliott.
21:50:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to banach.
21:50:11 <elliott> oklopol: what kind of addresses
21:50:26 <oklopol> yours i have already so i don't see why i need to answer
21:50:45 -!- banach has changed nick to sierpinski.
21:50:50 <cheater99> why do you want my address now oklopololopol
21:51:20 <oklopol> cheater99: not part of the deal
21:51:31 <cheater99> oklopol: well it's either this or no deal
21:51:40 <cheater99> oklopol: are you really in finland btw?
21:52:22 <cheater99> just in case you have nowhere to send out anthrax?
21:52:51 <oklopol> just in case i'm in the neighborhood and want human company, ofc
21:53:05 <j-invariant> elliott: that shouldn't be too hard to fix, they do that on purpose to weed out 'posers'
21:53:18 <zzo38> OK fine I put cheater99 on ignore......
21:53:25 <elliott> <zzo38> OK fine I put cheater99 on ignore......
21:54:34 <sierpinski> I'm going to put j-invariant on my watchlist for ignoring for suspected Englishness.
21:54:55 <oklopol> i was given no addresses :\
21:54:59 -!- sierpinski has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:55:29 <zzo38> Because they said so........
21:57:14 <oklopol> what's wrong with having an oklo ring your doorbell
21:58:57 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:11 <oklopol> cheater99: i'm really in finland
21:59:38 <cheater99> can someone tell zzo38 to unignore me now?
22:00:03 <zzo38> Now I don't want to filter it anymore.
22:00:04 <oklopol> cheater99: but won't you then ignore him?
22:01:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and why do you ignore the English?
22:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, because otherwise I am not allowed to live in Scotland without a visa.
22:01:58 <cheater99> oklopol: no, this was a one-time event
22:02:08 <zzo38> I looked at the log file, and I realized that I switched off the filter at the time which they told them to tell me to stop, it is coincidence, though, that it happened at the same time.
22:02:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, scotland is better at everything but football, and I don't care about football
22:02:31 <ais523> so why don't you just look down on us intead?
22:03:00 <ais523> cheater99: it also has a sane education system and a sane legal system
22:03:06 <ais523> which is possibly more important
22:03:52 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: really? that surprises me
22:04:11 <ais523> unless the stereotypes about scots and healthy eating are actually true, which would surprise me even more
22:04:15 <ais523> I tend not to believe in stereotypes
22:04:36 <ais523> and although I know you invented the deep-fried mars bar, I thought that was just for selling to tourists
22:04:58 <ais523> hmm, wait, are we in an antiflamewar?
22:05:05 <ais523> I'd better go home before it gets even worse
22:05:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I should point out at this point that I am not very Scottish at all.
22:14:12 <fizzie> okoploop: My address is too easy to find that I'd bother distribatibuting it, but don't you already approximately know?
22:16:04 <oklopol> i know which town you live in
22:16:17 <oklopol> but yeah i know where to find you
22:16:31 <oklopol> and i have plans for a few others as well
22:17:08 <cheater99> oklopol: is it true that children aged 11 drink vodka in finland by the glass
22:17:32 <Phantom_Hoover> "Crazed student kidnaps 4, uses them for insane experiment."
22:18:00 <oklopol> i remember we drank one glass of vodka each when i was 10 or something, with a friend, but i didn't start drinking until i was like 15
22:18:29 <fizzie> They do seem to start younger (12?) nowadays, though.
22:18:32 <oklopol> but some 11yo's certainly drink a lot, i think they do in every country
22:18:49 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sNge0Ywz-M
22:19:35 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodka_belt ← I did not know that was a term.
22:20:35 <oklopol> so umm, i think my idea works
22:20:57 <oklopol> for the problem i've been trying to solve
22:21:13 <oklopol> now i can't continue thinking about it because i'm so excited
22:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Creepers exploding on the data bus would be a novel excuse for computer failure.
22:22:37 <fizzie> "Creepers on the Data Bus", yet another band name.
22:22:55 <fizzie> Or a really weird euphemism.
22:23:07 <fizzie> "Sorry, I can't come today; I've got the creepers on my data bus, if you know what I mean."
22:23:10 <oklopol> i'd like to creep on HER data bus
22:23:22 <quintopia> creepers on the data bus is my meat loaf cover band
22:24:26 -!- elliott has joined.
22:26:35 <elliott> Success enough. Tweaking things can come later.
22:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, creepers on the data bus: the best excuse for computer failure ever?
22:26:42 <elliott> Touchpad isn't working perfectly but I can refine it gradually.
22:27:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I've already tried "I wrote it on a flash drive, then I dropped it and the partition table fell out!"
22:28:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Bring in a melted-in-the-oven floppy, and then just say "well *now* I know why they call them floppies!"
22:29:05 <elliott> "I have erectile dysfunction... but hey, at least I know why they call them floppies now!"
22:36:06 * Sgeo goes to play EteRNA
22:37:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:38:57 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please tell me that's a game in which you play as a cell.
22:40:57 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:41:09 -!- elliott has joined.
22:41:29 <Sgeo> It's a game where you try to design RNA molecules
22:42:01 <oklopol> wouldn't this cooperative action game be great where you have a bunch of people that are a cellular automaton, and everyone must behave according to the local rule, or CHAOS ENSUES
22:42:23 <oklopol> or single-player adventure mode
22:43:01 <Ilari> Lagerholm estimate is in single digit number of days...
22:43:18 <oklopol> our cellular automata course started
22:43:53 <oklopol> sofar we've done some basic cantor topology stuff, proved a few things about neighborhoods, and looked at golly simulations for hours
22:44:04 <Ilari> 3M allocations from China marked as new (less than 5 days ago).
22:45:13 <oklopol> did you know cellular automata look really pretty when you run them? this was news to me, i just knew their theory was pretty
22:45:40 <Ilari> APNIC: 2.39 /8s in RIR Pool
22:46:14 <oklopol> i read wolfram's book once but he didn't mention they look pretty when run
22:46:26 <oklopol> he just said they look really IMPORTANT and FUNDAMENTAL
22:46:38 <Ilari> There is still ~20 day spread between the Lagerhom and Houston estimates (due to differing thresholds)...
22:46:40 <oklopol> j-invariant: one of the names of the product topology of Z
22:46:56 <oklopol> because it's topologically equivalent to cantor sets
22:47:49 <oklopol> i can try, but i'll need to come up with a concrete example
22:48:12 <Ilari> Basically, it is all up to APNIC on when IANA pool is going to deplete...
22:48:18 <oklopol> so say all finite patterns have a preimage, then "by compactness", all configurations have a preimage
22:48:23 <oklopol> an application of topology right there
22:48:42 <oklopol> because it's S^Z is a compact space, and finite patterns can be made converge into your configuration
22:49:34 <oklopol> so preimages of them have a converging subsequence (by compactness) that converges to an X such that X has to have that limit configuration as its image
22:49:34 <elliott> i wish my trackpad wouldn't freeze up if i move it for too long
22:49:40 <elliott> until i move away for a second and restart moving
22:49:48 <oklopol> did you follow that? i can do it more clearly
22:52:15 <oklopol> i'll try to improvise: let G be a CA function with a quiescent state q such that G(q, ..., q) = q, such that for all "finite configurations" c there is a c' such that G(c') = c, where finite configuration = finitely many non-quiescents
22:53:14 <oklopol> now, consider an arbitrary configuration, also called c for some reason, take a sequence of finite configurations c_i converging to it (why can i do this?), and for each of them a preimage c'_i
22:53:40 <oklopol> then, take a converging subsequence of c'_i
22:54:18 <oklopol> call that say (d_i), we still know G(d_i) converges to c
22:54:29 <oklopol> because G(d_i) is a subsequence of c_i
22:54:50 <oklopol> now, because d_i converges, also G(d_i) converges, because G is continuous
22:55:30 <oklopol> but we know limits commute with continuous functions, so c = lim G(d_i) = G(lim d_i)
22:55:45 <oklopol> therefore, the limit of the d_i is a preimage of c
22:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way the channel can segue into advanced mathematics in a matter of seconds.
22:56:55 <Ilari> Last time APNIC allocated at something like 2.1 or 2.2 /8s, which is about 0.2 to 0.3 /8s left...
22:56:58 <oklopol> got it? this illustrates the techniques, but in this case you could just open up the meanings of the topological terms, since there's so little of them used
22:57:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:57:11 <oklopol> that wasn't very advanced :D
22:57:12 <Ilari> In number of addresses, that's about 4 million.
22:57:34 <elliott> oklopol: it had limits and ' in it
22:57:47 <oklopol> j-invariant: did you know CA are exactly the shift-commuting continuous functions from S^Z to S^Z?
22:58:16 <oklopol> shift turns configuration x into its left-shifted image, as you might have guessed
22:58:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.).
22:58:39 <oklopol> and shift commuting is of course that it doesn't matter whether you apply the function before or after the shift
22:58:40 <Ilari> 4 million... And we are down 3 million in last 5 days...
22:59:19 <Sgeo> Who is using all these IPs?
22:59:47 <oklopol> j-invariant: that's actually a sort of trivial thing, in this symposiom I TALKED IN, there was this presentation where they basically just extracted that from some basic category theory for a much larger class of things than just CA, without really doing much
22:59:57 <oklopol> but it's a lot of fun, and that's the reason topology is useful
23:00:19 <oklopol> for instance, if a CA is reversible, then its inverse is also a CA function
23:00:29 <oklopol> how does that follow from topology and that characterization?
23:00:52 <oklopol> erm, is asking questions annoying btw, it seems i've started doing that :D
23:01:23 <oklopol> it's basically a nicer form of "obviously"
23:02:52 <Ilari> If APNIC uses 2.2 as alloc threshold this time, that would likely mean exhaustion next week.
23:03:40 <Ilari> The reserves holding this month seem rather unlikely...
23:04:12 <pikhq> As it was last month, it's *all* a matter of when APNIC feels like allocating.
23:04:26 <pikhq> Could easily happen right now.
23:05:06 <oklopol> j-invariant: answer, since you didn't answer my first question either: S^Z is a compact space, so the inverse of a continuous bijection is continuous (basic topological result), and shift commuting should be obvious
23:05:12 <elliott> Ilari: question, do APNIC _know_ what doing that will result in? :D
23:05:54 <oklopol> S^Z being compact is a fun exercise if you haven't played with this stuff
23:06:25 <oklopol> sorry about that, i forget to mention things
23:06:34 <pikhq> elliott: They are all *very* well aware that IPv4 depletion happens insanely soon.
23:06:49 <elliott> pikhq: so is it possible that APNIC will hold back just to shut up doomsday prophets? :D
23:07:07 <pikhq> elliott: If they "hold back", we *might* get another month out of IPv4.
23:07:22 <elliott> pikhq: yeah, but would _you_ give the order "MAKE THE ALLOCATION!"?
23:07:30 <Sgeo> Vodka looks interesting
23:07:53 <Sgeo> How long can APNIC hold out for?
23:08:09 <Sgeo> Vodka looks dead
23:08:35 <pikhq> And not worth discussing.
23:09:11 <pikhq> We've likely got a bit over a year untiil *every* RIR is out...
23:09:23 <elliott> what Sgeo is trying to say is, he INGESTED the vodka
23:09:54 <Ilari> It is more like they already have been holding back for at least a month...
23:11:16 <Ilari> And if the scary allocation rates shown on December continue after new year's, the extra address pool is going to deplete in no time (forcing allocation).
23:11:54 <Ilari> Waiting a month, their RIR pool would run SERIOUSLY low.
23:11:54 <j-invariant> is there a site to host a PDF, like imgur?
23:11:54 <oklopol> j-invariant: did you lost interest, i was hoping i could lecture about this all night :D
23:12:12 <j-invariant> oklopol: I am interested in it but I would like to start at the beginning
23:12:28 <elliott> j-invariant: filebin.ca throws anything you throw at it ... when it's up
23:12:43 <elliott> j-invariant: foobin can of course do pdfs... but you need a server, and also me to have written it
23:14:06 <oklopol> j-invariant: we are very close to the beginning, if you're fluent in topology; but i suppose that's not necessarily the case
23:15:37 <oklopol> basically: 1. S^Z is compact (special case of tychonoff) 2. CA are the continuous and shift-commuting functions 3. examples of using these ideas in proofs; i started at 3
23:16:24 <j-invariant> oklopol: I know the definitions of topology but not the theorems like tychonoff. I can learn it another time though.
23:17:26 <oklopol> j-invariant: i was joking about lecturing all night, don't worry
23:18:14 <oklopol> erm, would you like a lecture?
23:18:33 <oklopol> no one EVER wants a lecture!
23:19:13 <elliott> Sgeo: so have you given up on ur again
23:19:17 <oklopol> i can't prove tychonoff. that's crazy shit. i can prove S^Z compact directly though. i think
23:20:30 <oklopol> it's easy if we already know that CA characterization, but hmmhmm
23:20:40 <oklopol> maybe my numbering was wrong!
23:20:52 <oklopol> i haven't actually had to implement this theory
23:20:59 <oklopol> i've just read other people's code
23:21:10 <Ilari> Hmm... About 1 billion endpoint devices and about 625 trillion IPv6 subnetworks allocated...
23:21:33 <oklopol> okay so first of all we should probably start with S^Z being metrizable
23:21:55 <oklopol> that is, you can implement the topology with a metric
23:23:04 <oklopol> one such metric d is defined as follows: if x and y are in S^Z, d(x, y)= 2^{-n} for the smallest n such that x_n != y_n or x_{-n} != y_{-n}
23:23:26 <oklopol> do you know what the product topology on S^Z is?
23:24:12 <Ilari> Not exactly what I would call efficient use of address space...
23:25:18 <oklopol> it has S^\{i : i < j\} x {s} x S^\{i : i > j}} as a subbase, that is a subbase is given by sets where one cell has to be s, and others can be anything
23:25:51 <oklopol> where s and j range over S and Z, respectively
23:26:16 <oklopol> this is just the definition of product topology, which we'll make more sense of later, for instance that metrizability should already clarify it a bit
23:27:55 <oklopol> the product topology of topological spaces (T_i) in general has as a subbase, for each i, and each open U \in T_i, U x \product_{j != i} T_j
23:28:10 <oklopol> i just used the fact {s}'s are open sets forming a base for the finite set S
23:28:29 <oklopol> (on which we of course use the discrete topology)
23:28:48 <Sgeo> elliott, I want to see documentation that isn't in bed with the /Web part
23:29:08 <elliott> Sgeo: ah, so you still don't realise that it's a proof-of-concept
23:29:12 <oklopol> so okay now we have the topology of S^Z down, let me try to explain why that d implements it
23:29:28 <elliott> Sgeo: the point of the /web part is to show why the extended type system is helpful.
23:29:44 <oklopol> well first of all, given that d is a metric (i think that's obvious, but should check), it must give us *some* topology on S^Z
23:30:28 <oklopol> so all we have to prove is: 1) if B is an open ball in the topology given by d, then there's an open set in the product topology of S^Z that contains it 2) vice versa
23:30:54 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to __copumpkin__.
23:31:11 <oklopol> now consider such a ball B, it is given by a radius r = 2^{-k}
23:31:35 -!- __copumpkin__ has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:31:43 <oklopol> let's say it's aroung configuration x, now this ball, by the definition of d, contains all y such that x and y agree in the size k neighborhood of the origin
23:31:54 <oklopol> or some off-by-one error there, depending on how exactly i defined d
23:32:10 <oklopol> it doesn't actually matter, but i guess can try to be more precise if you like?
23:32:54 <oklopol> (oh and that neighborhood of the origin isn't a topological neighborhood, just an intuitive idea)
23:33:14 <oklopol> that the cells of y that are at most k steps from cell 0 must agree with those cells of x
23:34:05 <Sgeo> elliott, is Learn You A Haskell considered decent? I pointed someone to it
23:34:08 <Sgeo> [Someone from class]
23:34:10 <oklopol> because otherwise d would be larger, since if x and y disagree in some |j| < |k|, then d(x, y) >= 2^{-j} by definition of d, and that's bigger than 2^{-k}
23:34:28 <oklopol> where i forgot some ||'s around k and j
23:35:04 <oklopol> *d(x, y) >= 2^{-|j|} *that's bigger than 2^{-|k|}
23:35:52 <oklopol> (i'm waiting for some sort of confirmation, since you gave one such without asking)
23:35:57 <j-invariant> oklopol: I think I should write a note on this one
23:36:44 <oklopol> you mean write down the definitions or?
23:41:26 <oklopol> you mean without any input from me? there is really no trick here, so you can certainly do this yourself if you are organized enough not to drown in the details
23:42:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:42:52 <oklopol> and remember basic things like intersections of open sets being open...
23:43:25 <elliott> i was just about to say this line:
23:43:37 <elliott> <elliott> hey oklopol teach me some maths <oklopol> okay, so if 2+2=4, then 2+3=5
23:43:48 <elliott> <oklopol> you following? <elliott> eys
23:44:03 <oklopol> hey i once taught you algebra
23:44:10 <elliott> <oklopol> should i prove it to you
23:44:12 <oklopol> but then you were all like NO MORE, PLEASE GO AWAY
23:45:07 <elliott> <oklopol> well, you see, 2=1+1 (i'll explain why later), so it's 1+1+1+1=4
23:45:25 <elliott> <oklopol> we can reduce this partially to peano arithmetic, namely, SSSS0 = 4
23:45:30 <elliott> <elliott> what's peano arithmetic
23:45:36 <elliott> <oklopol> ummmm S is like 1+ and 0 is like 0
23:45:41 <elliott> <elliott> why not just write that
23:46:18 * cheater99 punches oklopol with the power of a thousand punches!
23:46:56 <quintopia> 2+2=4 => 2+3=5 only if 3=S2 and 5=S4. let's define more interesting numbers.
23:47:34 <oklopol> quintopia: i don't get it, how did you prove that implication
23:47:56 <oklopol> you have to somehow remove the 2
23:48:18 <elliott> i like how hilarious this joke at my expense is.
23:48:30 <quintopia> oklopol: it's a false implication. i started with P^~P and went from there
23:48:31 <elliott> <oklopol> okay so let's try something simpler
23:48:40 <elliott> <oklopol> in fact, let's not
23:48:51 <elliott> <oklopol> and i can prove it
23:49:18 <elliott> <oklopol> -1*-1 = -(1*-1), which is -(-1*1), which is (--1)*1, now --1 = 1, so -1*-1 = 1*1 = 1
23:49:40 <elliott> <elliott> yes, but i don't see what this has to do with the hairy ball theorem
23:49:42 <oklopol> quintopia: i see. in a recent exam on ergodic theory, i did a similar thing, and proved everything is an extremal point os any set.
23:50:12 <elliott> oklopol: do you like my cubically valid proof
23:50:54 <oklopol> i don't know how the hairy ball theorem is proved
23:51:02 <oklopol> i couldn't help you with that
23:51:59 <oklopol> yeah the funny thing about that theorem is is sounds like a guy's low-hangers with hair on them
23:52:14 <oklopol> and not just the name, the proof is pretty fucking perverted as well
23:53:06 <quintopia> the hairy ball theorem? you mean the one that says a vector field on a sphere has at least 2 points of discontinuity?
23:53:30 <oklopol> or is it 2? because it sure looks like 1 is possible
23:54:19 <oklopol> quintopia: but yes, that one
23:54:23 <elliott> how can i make a topological database
23:55:13 <elliott> currently my design is just like, based on datalog
23:55:15 <elliott> and where's the fun in that
23:55:20 <oklopol> maybe you could have the discrete topology, i hear that's the BIGGEST topology of al
23:55:33 <oklopol> so clearly you'd get *more* stuff out of it
23:56:05 <elliott> oklopol: can i have databases be like
23:56:32 <oklopol> there need not be discontinuities on tori
23:56:38 <elliott> that's actually the plural
23:56:59 <elliott> tori is just such a silly word you know
23:57:43 <oklopol> i know some basic stuff about tori because addition of a constant vector on a torus is one of the basic examples you do in dynamical systems
23:58:11 <oklopol> and i recently came up with fundamental groups of graphs, although naturally i then found this obvious definition in a paper, stated in a nicer way
23:58:27 <oklopol> tori are the first things you do with fundamental groups
23:58:30 <oklopol> because of the groups they give
23:59:38 <oklopol> maybe i could just go to uni, i feel like this is not a very productive use of my important time
00:00:03 <oklopol> then it might be productive use of his time at least, since CA are so very very sexy
00:00:56 <oklopol> sometimes i just go all CACACACACACACACACACA
00:01:56 <oklopol> j-invariant: actually i probably couldn't lecture all night, since the first nontrivial thing you usually do about CA is a theorem i actually don't know how to prove :D
00:01:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:02:02 <oklopol> injectivity => surjectivity
00:02:16 <oklopol> some sort of pigeonhole argument, but i haven't filled in the details, ever
00:02:21 * quintopia everts elliott's spheres without pinching or poking holes
00:03:58 <Sgeo> oklopol, something you do in a fun, cute, happy game
00:04:30 <oklopol> hmm, actually that injectivity => surjectivity thing is really obvious
00:04:34 <elliott> oklopol: you know when you stick your hand up your ass and pull the rest of you outside?
00:05:05 <oklopol> erm, well apart from the fact that if there's a configuration without a preimage, then there's a finite pattern without a preimage, in the obvious sense
00:05:38 <oklopol> yeah it cleanses my body in ways western science just can't
00:06:14 <oklopol> i'm actually going to go now, before i start proving that theorem
00:06:38 <j-invariant> okay oklopol I will aks you about this in future thogu
00:07:27 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
00:07:53 <oklopol> or you can just follow our course! http://users.utu.fi/jkari/ca/
00:08:21 -!- variable has joined.
00:08:30 <oklopol> the lecture notes are pretty good, although topology is used less explicitly, at least in the beginning
00:08:37 <elliott> i should come visit oklopol and embarrass him at his uni
00:08:46 <oklopol> how would you embarrass me?
00:09:14 <elliott> oklopol: so this one time he was on irc ...
00:09:32 <oklopol> many people know my irc nick
00:09:39 <elliott> yes but they don't know where the logs are
00:09:41 <elliott> nor have the patience to read them all
00:10:25 <elliott> j-invariant: but free bird is a terrible song
00:10:56 * quintopia will be in helsinki on jun 10. anyone wanna hang out?
00:11:26 <oklopol> maybe i could come see you and fizzie at the same time
00:12:11 * Sgeo watches another Eversion LP
00:12:16 <cheater99> this happened only today only this once when i unplugged a usb drive and plugged in another one
00:12:25 <oklopol> maybe Deewiant as well, but i feel Deewiant is a superior person to me, so i'm not sure that'd be as much fun.
00:12:38 <cheater99> i do strace sync and it hangs on this:
00:12:40 <Vorpal> <oklopol> "<Vorpal> Sgeo, with oerjan and who else?" <<< good morning <-- when, and context?
00:12:41 <elliott> i always think oh Deewiant won't know anything about this thing
00:12:44 <elliott> and then Deewiant just like
00:12:47 <elliott> with his superior knowledge
00:13:05 <Sgeo> Vorpal, screwed up sleep cycles.
00:13:23 * Sgeo tests Vorpal for alzheimer's
00:13:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I slept for a few hours
00:14:04 <oklopol> Vorpal: i tend to assume people remember the context of every line
00:14:22 <oklopol> irl, i tend to spontaneously continue conversations i've had weeks ago
00:14:28 <Sgeo> elliott, associated with old people, loss of memory, fatal, Pratchett has it.
00:14:34 <Sgeo> Probably spelled incorrectly.
00:14:42 <elliott> Sgeo: what are you talking about?
00:15:02 <Sgeo> elliott, I hate you.
00:15:04 <Vorpal> Sgeo, my grandmother (on my father's side) has it too.
00:15:09 <Sgeo> [Note: Not really]
00:15:10 <elliott> Sgeo: what? what did i say
00:15:16 <oklopol> my grandparents are free from alzheimer's
00:15:24 <oklopol> the punchline is they're dead
00:15:26 <Sgeo> Vorpal, same here [grandmother on father's side]
00:16:02 <elliott> the last discworld novel had better be fucking awesome
00:16:12 <elliott> like if it's shit because of, you know, alzheimer's
00:16:28 <elliott> go out on a bang, asshole.
00:16:29 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:16:37 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you read it?
00:16:46 <oklopol> elliott doesn't read anything
00:17:05 <Vorpal> elliott, now that is not very nice of you
00:17:17 <elliott> his condition is deteriorating and he's already said he's going to commit suicide before it becomes too bad, so i'm just being practical here
00:17:28 <oklopol> elliott: i think he meant the no sympathy thing
00:17:30 <elliott> it's not fair to, like, leave us without tying up all the loose ends and shit with the best novel ever
00:17:36 <quintopia> are there any swedes? i'll be in stockholm that same week
00:17:46 <elliott> quintopia: avoid Vorpal at all costs
00:17:51 <oklopol> both would very much like to meet you
00:17:59 <oklopol> and why do you travel so much?
00:18:03 <elliott> Vorpal probably treats his house like Mount Vorpal
00:18:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'm not even near Stockholm. :P
00:18:24 <oklopol> yeah Vorpal didn't even give me his address
00:18:45 <Vorpal> I have no clue where he lives
00:18:54 <quintopia> i travel as much as i can cuz i love travel
00:18:59 <elliott> doesn't matter, just far away from Vorpal most likely
00:19:00 <Vorpal> oklopol, well to be fair I don't have your either (and don't really want it)
00:19:15 <elliott> oklopol's address is- GAK!
00:19:33 <quintopia> elliott: should be as easy to avoid vorpal as it is to avoid you
00:19:36 <oklopol> Vorpal: i'm not saying you should give it, i'm just saying you're crazily protective of your house
00:19:53 <elliott> quintopia: why avoid me i'm amazing
00:19:57 <elliott> oklopol: sorta like mount vorpal
00:20:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:05 <Vorpal> oklopol, no.. not really
00:20:22 <oklopol> what possible reason could you have for not giving me your address?
00:20:31 <oklopol> i just gave you my address today, you even asked for it
00:20:41 <quintopia> elliott: lay odds on us getting along?
00:20:43 <Vorpal> oklopol, hah not in MC :P
00:20:51 <elliott> quintopia: 0, but it's irrelevant, everyone should meet me
00:21:07 <elliott> oklopol: omg where are you in mc
00:21:09 <oklopol> you didn't answer, what reason could you have?
00:21:11 <elliott> quintopia: yes, so i can kill him
00:21:27 <quintopia> okay, even more reason for me to avoid you :P
00:21:44 <Vorpal> elliott, no I wouldn't
00:21:48 <oklopol> elliott: i just told Vorpal, since he seemed like a likely person not to do anything annoying, while still keeping the place unseen from the majority so i can be in peace
00:21:55 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:21:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I get along great with everyone but you and PH.
00:22:31 <quintopia> i get along with people who like good beer
00:22:38 <elliott> oklopol: i don't do anything annoying intentionally unless it's to Vorpal :)
00:22:40 <quintopia> now it's time for me to go catch a movie
00:22:51 <elliott> oklopol: like this one time, i set deewiant's house on fire
00:23:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, oh nice. *bows*
00:23:04 -!- variable has joined.
00:23:05 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:23:09 <elliott> oklopol: and when i was cleaning it up with lava it made a gigantic cobble monolith
00:23:12 <elliott> oklopol: with lava and water inside
00:23:28 <elliott> oklopol: that happened when i tried to burn the leaves of a tree away
00:23:33 <elliott> the leaves kinda drooped over the house a bit
00:23:36 <oklopol> Vorpal: no i mean the question was for you :D
00:23:36 <oklopol> why would you not me the address!
00:23:48 <Vorpal> oklopol, which question now again?
00:23:55 <elliott> oklopol: but uh if you don't let me cut down trees near yours it'll be totally safe
00:23:56 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:24:17 <Vorpal> oklopol, well I think you accidentally a verb there
00:24:44 <Vorpal> oklopol, don't trust elliott. He can easily mess up without that
00:24:56 <oklopol> but there's no magic if i just let everyone come see it every now and then
00:25:14 <elliott> oklopol: i can just use mcmap + a walking bot to find it :)
00:25:36 <elliott> oklopol: but why don't we optimise it, together
00:26:07 <oklopol> because the point is to play the game, not to obtain goals as fast as possible
00:27:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:27:14 <Vorpal> cheater00, check what 192.168.178.1 does
00:27:32 <cheater00> i'm talking about the hanging sync()
00:27:38 <Vorpal> cheater00, why the sysrq stuff in there
00:27:55 <Vorpal> cheater00, kernel version?
00:28:42 <Vorpal> cheater00, anything between 2.6.30 and 2.6.35 (inclusive) and I suggest you upgrade. I had sync hanging sometimes during that period.
00:28:45 <Vorpal> cheater00, no it isn't
00:28:52 <Vorpal> just middle mouse button
00:29:01 <cheater00> 2.6.32-27-generic #49-Ubuntu SMP Wed Dec 1 23:52:12 UTC 2010 i686 GNU/Linux
00:29:15 <Vorpal> cheater00, upgrade to 2.6.36 kernel
00:29:43 -!- elliott_ has joined.
00:29:43 <oklopol> oh right, i was gonna leave ->
00:29:45 <Vorpal> and hope the fs is journaling
00:29:46 <cheater00> how do i unlock my sync() now without rebooting?
00:29:51 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:29:55 <Vorpal> cheater00, you don't. It is a bug in some kernels
00:31:09 <Vorpal> cheater00, just unmount any other file systems
00:31:20 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:31:21 <Vorpal> and remount the ones that couldn't as read only
00:31:22 <cheater00> Vorpal: is there a bug description for this?
00:31:27 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:31:37 <Vorpal> cheater00, yes, but I don't have a link to it on this machine
00:31:56 <Vorpal> cheater00, no it is on my mail in another computer
00:32:00 <Vorpal> cheater00, also why should I
00:32:19 <cheater00> i'm expressing my belief in your abilities
00:32:38 <cheater00> like, i'm sure zzo or j-invariant wouldn't be able to
00:33:21 <cheater00> well, i know nothing about the linux kernel
00:33:47 <cheater00> so i wouldn't recognize the right sites in google
00:33:59 <Vorpal> cheater00, https://bugzilla.kernel.org/
00:36:50 <Vorpal> cheater00, actually it might not be the same bug. Your backtrace looks a bit shorter than I remember mine
00:36:56 <Vorpal> in which case I can't help much
00:43:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:48:06 <elliott_> stupid generic-mode only supports three-char comment chars
00:53:33 <elliott_> colour ~, {, }, :, ., ; specially
00:53:44 <elliott_> have a bunch of alternate comment delims up to 6 chars
00:53:48 <elliott_> and have an auto-indenter algo
00:56:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:59:56 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
01:00:00 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
01:00:00 -!- elliott has joined.
01:00:43 <elliott> f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('}
01:01:25 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
01:01:59 -!- Ilari has joined.
01:03:44 <elliott> _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]`/{_Op f/(\w+) (\w+)\(/r{$1'\n'$2'('}_Wr _Cl}
01:04:40 * elliott waits for Sgeo to call him crazy
01:07:56 <elliott> ` is an arbitrary char; you could use % there too.
01:08:08 <Sgeo> I am _NOT_ doing all that next time I omit a letter from a line
01:08:22 <elliott> That has nothing to do with omitting a letter from a line.
01:08:34 <elliott> from all C files in the current dir
01:09:51 <Sgeo> And I see it stemming from the grand J tradition of being unreadable
01:09:57 * Sgeo gets shot by elliott
01:10:18 <elliott> it's not even vaguely related to J.
01:10:21 <elliott> it's more similar to ed and teco
01:10:29 <elliott> also, unreadable for you maybe
01:11:58 <elliott> Sgeo: you could easily write that line more readable and clearer. but, err, it's an editor
01:12:00 <elliott> who indents editor commands
01:12:21 <Sgeo> I will be offline for much of Friday
01:12:45 <elliott> _Ex `find -name \*.[ch]` / {
01:12:45 <Sgeo> I'm sure that makes you happy
01:13:25 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't.. understand it, but if I read about it, it would be comprehendible
01:13:40 <elliott> Sgeo: _Ex is just execute shell command obviously
01:13:47 <elliott> / is infix operator for "each in list"
01:13:51 <elliott> _Op = open; _Wr = write; _Cl = close
01:13:54 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder what is failure rate of 6to4 return paths...
01:14:03 <elliott> f/regexp/ is "find (and, implicitly, select) all matching strings"
01:14:09 <elliott> r{ ... } is "replace with result of this block"
01:14:10 <Ilari> (of course, any failure there is stupid...)
01:14:15 <elliott> $1, $2 are your standard regexp () group values
01:14:17 <elliott> and that's all there is to it
01:14:49 <Sgeo> Are f and r always together like that?
01:15:03 <elliott> To delete all instances of foo.
01:15:15 <Sgeo> But r is meaningless without a preceding f?
01:15:18 <elliott> f/foo/ a... would add stuff after all instances of foo.
01:15:28 <elliott> Sgeo: It operates on the current selection. So you could select, e.g., an arbitrary range in the file instead.
01:15:40 <elliott> (Note: You can have N selections at a time; all these operations act on /every/ selection.)
01:15:44 <elliott> This is modelled after sam.
01:15:52 <elliott> (ed's graphical successor)
01:20:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway modelling dream editors on TECO is good enough for Mark Chu-Caroll so it's good enough for me.
01:20:21 <elliott> His is actually implemented though.
01:21:55 <Sgeo> I'm in a bit of a happy mood ight now. Deespite being cold
01:21:58 <elliott> P.S. my f/foo/r/bar/ is MCC's g/foo/,{r'bar'}.
01:22:23 <Sgeo> Well, where MCC's g comes from is obvious, but why the {}?
01:22:43 <elliott> His is more like a foreach.
01:23:06 <elliott> Mine isn't a loop, it just holds multiple selections. Like Schrödinger's editor.
01:23:20 <elliott> A simple loop construct. For each match of the pattern within the current cursor, execute the block. So, for example, to do a global search and replace of foo with bar, * g/foo/,{r'bar'}.
01:23:23 <elliott> Less powerful than my notion.
01:24:29 <elliott> fun ($x) @fact {($x,0)@= ? {1} : { ($x, ($x,1)@-@fact)@* }
01:24:34 <elliott> which would be, uh, slightly uglier in mine.
01:25:34 <Sgeo> S's cat's editor?
01:26:07 <elliott> _Set [_Fact] {_Eq $1 0 ?'1' :{I don't even want to write this bit}}
01:26:19 <elliott> That just sets _Fact to a string naturally.
01:30:45 <elliott> i wonder what i should impl botte in
01:33:18 <elliott> Courtesy of Notch's incompetence, enjoy minecraft.jar for free: http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar
01:33:32 <elliott> I am fairly sure that anyone can download that URL without supplying the S3 auth token.
01:33:50 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl.jar
01:33:50 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/jinput.jar
01:33:50 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/lwjgl_util.jar
01:33:53 <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma
01:46:20 <Sgeo> That's useless without some trick to avoid having to log in, I think
01:49:54 -!- augur has changed nick to SamuelBeckett.
01:50:03 -!- SamuelBeckett has changed nick to augur.
01:51:47 <elliott> Sgeo: just log in with invalid uname/pass
01:51:56 <elliott> Sgeo: or non-purchased one
01:52:04 <elliott> Sgeo: plus, no, that's launcher.jar
01:52:09 <Sgeo> Unless something changed since the al.. ah
01:52:09 <elliott> running minecraft.jar will do everything
01:52:12 <elliott> online servers won't let you in of course
01:52:18 <elliott> since they check with minecraft.net
01:52:20 <elliott> unless they're modded not to
01:52:28 <Sgeo> Is there a windows_natives?
01:54:05 <elliott> those are all free-to-download sorta thing
01:54:09 <elliott> not protected with auth token in download logs
01:54:22 <elliott> Sgeo: in fact if you run classic in-browser i think you will see it being downloaded
01:54:49 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/linux_natives.jar.lzma <--- what, is it that open?
01:55:03 <elliott> Vorpal: linux_natives.jar.lzma is downloaded even by the classic client.
01:55:13 <Vorpal> okay what about minecraft.jar then
01:55:15 <elliott> Vorpal: The thing is that minecraft.jar is downloaded like ?user=ehird&auth=...
01:55:20 <elliott> But I curl -I'd it without those
01:55:26 <elliott> And it had the same file length and 200 OK response :P
01:55:44 <Vorpal> elliott, how did you find this out?
01:55:58 <elliott> Vorpal: It prints out the URLs it downloads when it updates.
01:56:06 <elliott> I just decided to cut off the params and see what happened.
01:56:08 <Vorpal> elliott, oh there is an update out?
01:56:19 <elliott> Yes. And since this is a new OS installation I was running it from cmd line.
01:56:27 <Vorpal> elliott, ah. What is new this time
01:56:43 <Vorpal> elliott, so no actual update out?
01:56:51 <elliott> $ wget http://s3.amazonaws.com/MinecraftDownload/minecraft.jar
01:56:52 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$ diff minecraft.jar .minecraft/bin/minecraft.jar
01:56:52 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~$
01:56:54 <elliott> Notch quality engineering.
01:58:09 <Vorpal> elliott, as notch pointed out, this *is* in fact awesome: http://kotaku.com/5729340/you-can-now-bring-the-real-world-to-minecraft/gallery/
01:58:47 <elliott> I would so tweet that URL but fanbois would yell at me for being an evil pirate scumbag fuckwit, Notch would fix it quickly (probably badly) and likely FROWN UPON me or something, and nobody would win.
01:59:01 <elliott> Instead, I will just link the files to anyone I recommend Minecraft to, to save them the effort of pirating an old version.
01:59:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, I linked that in here yesterday.
01:59:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't see it
01:59:27 <elliott> Well, the original source, not Kotaku blogspam.
01:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, where is the original source?
01:59:55 <elliott> Good question, Kotaku are very good at hiding that... Gawker scumbags...
02:00:01 <elliott> http://www.orderofevents.com/MineCraft/KinectInfo.htm
02:00:04 <elliott> From the bottom of their sidebar text.
02:00:14 <elliott> Incidentally, the other side is apparently concave.
02:00:32 <elliott> Also, I'd take a photo of something very, very red
02:00:38 <elliott> Except it'd come out as Netherstone...
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02:01:19 <Vorpal> is it really netherack?
02:04:14 <Sgeo> There is a windows_natives
02:04:34 <Sgeo> I'm ... hyper with excitement
02:04:44 <elliott> Make sure to rm bin/version :P
02:04:56 <Sgeo> [Note: I don't mean sexually]
02:05:08 <Sgeo> sexadfawefuhawr
02:05:11 <Sgeo> -shutup- Shut up about sex!
02:05:58 <elliott> That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me.
02:06:04 <elliott> And that service system hurts me.
02:06:43 <Sgeo> elliott, we all know that shutup's source is updog
02:06:54 <elliott> Yes, by the power of rampant speculation.
02:07:40 <Sgeo> I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more
02:08:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> That bug was weird. But I'm not restarting it until I decide that it won't hurt me. <-- what bug
02:08:44 <Sgeo> Vorpal, something to do with sex, apparently
02:08:44 <elliott> It triggered on "sex" when it was not, in fact, intended to.
02:08:55 <elliott> The shutup code is ... kinda tailored for perversity.
02:09:03 <Sgeo> How do you accidentally trigger on sex?
02:09:05 <elliott> I refuse to code bots in any sane kind of manner.
02:09:23 <elliott> Sgeo: By fitting a words-to-include formula to the data of past things you've said.
02:09:24 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> I think the bug where updog doesn't distinguish between msgs to the channel and to it hurts you even more <-- hah
02:09:44 <elliott> i.e., decide what words to filter on, make an algo that goes through all your past said words and uses the frequency to decide which ones to keep,
02:09:49 <elliott> and fit the latter so that it produces the former.
02:09:55 <elliott> I blame you for skewing the results.
02:10:30 <Sgeo> So it will be a while before it triggers on Alluded-To?
02:10:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Katie Alluded-To Female.
02:11:03 <Vorpal> elliott, oh the "she"?
02:11:14 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing wrong with having a girlfriend
02:11:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and what is wrong with that
02:11:35 <elliott> Also, that was invented far before the term girlfriend could be even vaguely applicable.
02:11:44 <oerjan> elliott: somehow i cannot quite recall Sgeo talking that much about sex in the past
02:11:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you should make the bot tell yourself to shut up about @ btw
02:12:03 <elliott> oerjan: did you not read? it's not based on direct frequency
02:12:21 <oerjan> elliott: well obviously or it would trigger on "the" :D
02:12:22 <elliott> oerjan: i rigged the input to the algo so that it came back with almost the word list i wanted
02:12:34 <elliott> because sanity is frankly boring
02:12:53 <Sgeo> It has to be fairly deliberate for fantasies
02:12:56 <oerjan> elliott: maybe you have just algorithmically proved that Sgeo _is_ obsessed with sex, then.
02:13:01 <elliott> I did add some special-casing.
02:13:13 <elliott> oerjan: I am a brilliant visionary and a scientist.
02:13:24 <elliott> I graciously accept this Nobel Prize.
02:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, but the Nobel Prize is Swedish. How can you not look down on it.
02:14:09 * elliott IRC-bookmarks http://code.google.com/p/gnuemacscolorthemetest/
02:14:15 <elliott> Vorpal: so is olsner and he's p. coo
02:14:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what about Firefly?
02:14:42 <elliott> well sure but he rarely talks or anything
02:14:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also 90% of *everything* sucks
02:14:49 <elliott> beholdmyglory is also swedish i think
02:14:55 <elliott> also, yes, but 90% of the remaining 10% of sweden sucks
02:15:05 <elliott> sweden applies sturgeon's RECURSIVE law
02:15:11 <elliott> basically only epsilon% of sweden doesn't suck
02:15:35 <elliott> sucks = 90% + 90% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% + 90% of 10% of 10% of 10% + ...
02:15:53 <Sgeo> elliott, we got the joke
02:15:54 <elliott> wow the emacs themes are ugly
02:16:04 <Sgeo> That's the same thing as 100%
02:16:12 <elliott> Vorpal: color-theme-select
02:16:15 <elliott> they're all fairly hideous
02:16:18 <Sgeo> elliott, 99.9999999..... = 100
02:16:22 <elliott> there was this nice one i used once...
02:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott, because I have no color-theme-select
02:16:47 <Vorpal> elliott, what emacs version?
02:16:52 <pikhq> Hmm. 90% of everything that sucks sucks.
02:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal: 23, you may have to require 'color-theme
02:16:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think elliott is using non-standard analysis
02:17:11 <elliott> oerjan: non-standard analysis doesn't exactly give 99.99999... != 100 :D
02:17:47 <elliott> Vorpal: proof that they are all pretty bad: http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-c.html
02:17:55 <elliott> also http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-tex.html http://gnuemacscolorthemetest.googlecode.com/svn/html/index-el.html
02:18:11 <elliott> since the code is the prettiest
02:18:18 <Sgeo> Arjen looks decent
02:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott, standard emacs <version> are quite okay
02:18:43 <elliott> most of these look like some colourblind kid slapped random colours together without thinking
02:18:55 <Sgeo> Bharadwaj Slate must die
02:19:01 <Sgeo> The rest look decent
02:19:23 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Bharadwaj Slate must die <-- yeargh yesx
02:19:38 <elliott> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting
02:19:40 <Vorpal> also blue sea, blue mood
02:19:42 <elliott> i don't like the specific colours he used
02:19:45 <oerjan> bharadwaj sounds indian and everyone knows indians are colorblind
02:19:53 <elliott> i generally prefer dark-on-beigey-esque-stuff
02:20:01 <elliott> his use of colour theory is very relevant
02:20:02 <Sgeo> Seriously. Dear God Why. Late Night.
02:20:03 <elliott> everyone should read that post
02:20:12 <elliott> and the end result is really great, ignoring the absolute colours
02:20:20 <elliott> if you look from a slight distance you can really see the balance it creates
02:20:33 <elliott> if only every language had fans so dedicated to write such colourers for them :)
02:21:26 <elliott> Sgeo: late night is one of the better ones.
02:21:29 <elliott> it's a bit too low contrast
02:21:35 <elliott> but, at least, it isn't a mess of colours
02:22:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html this is the ideal of syntax highlighting <-- extremely interesting
02:23:09 <elliott> yeah i might do that for haskell sometime
02:23:20 <elliott> it's not the actual colours that matter
02:23:25 <elliott> it's the design of the whole thing
02:23:52 <copumpkin> I just don't get why people insist on doing that shit
02:24:02 <elliott> people haven't quite realised that with an lcd, backlight-on on backlight-off = lightbulb
02:24:10 <elliott> with crts it wasn't quite the same
02:25:31 <elliott> copumpkin: can you write a lazy parallel specialiser for me?
02:25:54 <elliott> i wonder if anyone's ever done work on parallel specialisation
02:25:59 * elliott adds it to the phd thesis topic ideas list
02:26:02 <pikhq> elliott: Light-on-dark is bad? Huh?
02:26:22 <elliott> pikhq: The background, and the gaps in the letters, get (almost) no backlight. So they're like looking at, you know, a wall.
02:26:27 <elliott> pikhq: Whereas the letters are lit brightly.
02:26:34 <elliott> pikhq: The result is that they shine like a lightbulb.
02:26:52 <pikhq> elliott: Your backlight level is almost certainly set too high.
02:26:57 <elliott> pikhq: The best is off-black on, e.g., a medium beige: not black-on-lightbulb, but not lightbulb-on-black.
02:27:04 <elliott> pikhq: Sure. But even with a lower backlight you get similar things.
02:27:14 <elliott> The fact is that it's little-tiny-lines-of-light-on-no-light and that just ain't nice.
02:27:39 <Vorpal> <copumpkin> ugh, white on black <-- yeah should use light grey on black
02:27:43 <elliott> pikhq: ALSO considering probably most of the web is dark-on-light, it's horrible because when you move away from light-on-dark, your eyes explode.
02:28:10 <elliott> braille on random sea of braille
02:28:22 <elliott> haha i'm gonna go around trolling blind people
02:28:25 <elliott> "Hey, what does this say?"
02:28:43 <elliott> someone render "has anyone ever been so far as ..." in braille
02:28:49 <elliott> i'm going to put it on a random door in the high street
02:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, your monitor has insufficiently backlight bleeding :P
02:28:58 <pikhq> Black on PLUGE black on a TV.
02:29:00 <elliott> before i get any better ideas
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02:36:38 <Ilari> Haha... NASA produces heavy launcher design and notes "However, to be clear, neither Reference Vehicle Design currently fits the projected budget profiles nor schedule goals outlined in the Authorization Act”. Translation: It will take horridly long and be horridly expensive.
02:37:55 <Ilari> Thanks to those pork-barrel politicans, US manned spaceflight program is effectively dead...
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02:39:12 <pikhq> Yeah; as soon as the shuttle's done, that's it.
02:39:22 <pikhq> No more US manned spaceflight, barring a miracle.
02:39:31 <pikhq> But remember: we're number one!
02:42:37 <Ilari> Basically, only Russia and China are capable of manned launches...
02:44:31 <Sgeo> I thought there was something about private companies?
02:45:18 <Ilari> And manned moon landing... Hasn't been possible for any space agency for 30 years...
02:46:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: There are private companies that would *like* to have a manned launch capacity.
02:48:32 <pikhq> Oh. SpaceX is actually *working on* a manned orbital launch vehicle.
02:50:57 <pikhq> Their rocket has successfully launched a module into orbit.
02:51:12 <Ilari> Saturn V-23(L)... Now that would have been crazy device. 5 uprated F-1s (F-1A)... PLUS 4x2 F-1As in form of 4 extra boosters...
02:54:05 <pikhq> Hmm. It was, in fact, a fully functional cargo vehicle they launched. As soon as NASA is satisfied, it will be launching to the ISS.
02:58:27 <Ilari> And too bad none of the "Nova" rockets was ever built...
03:00:22 <Ilari> Nor any nuclear-powered rockets...
03:01:06 <Ilari> (And I mean more like NERVA than ORION)
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03:04:24 <Gregor> Idonno, something about contracting to private companies to go to space seems enormously appropriate, we just need to somehow convince them that it's worth it ...
03:31:49 <Sgeo> My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin
03:32:00 <Sgeo> I was planning on sleeping tonight
03:43:10 -!- c0pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
03:48:53 <Sgeo> He was cleaning out the medicine closet, and didn't realize the melatonin was mine, I guess
03:53:29 <Sgeo> My dad just gave me a Benadryl
03:57:24 <oerjan> um that's not for sleeping is it
03:57:48 <quintopia> it's not. but it has a pretty pronounced drowsiness side effect
04:29:32 <quintopia> which is a cooler place, kobnhavn or amsterdam?
04:30:40 <oerjan> amsterdam because it actually exists
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04:40:47 <quintopia> copenhagen or denmark man, be straight with me
04:41:55 <oerjan> so the other conversation got a *copenhagen?
05:29:04 <Gregor> It appears that Copenhagen is, but only by 1-2 degrees centigrade.
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05:31:47 <Gregor> oerjan: Well, just going by Wikipedia's relatively limited climate information.
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05:39:42 <pikhq> George Hotz's lawyer has, in SCEA v. George Hotz; Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter; and Does 1 through 100, argued against the claim of jurisdiction and the claim that the defendants are somehow acting in concert.
05:41:29 <pikhq> In short: unless SCEA can demonstrate that a court in California has jurisdiction over people in: California, New Jersey, Sweden, and various unknown countries in Europe, *and* that the defendants are, in fact, a single group, acting in concert, this case ought to be thrown out soon.
05:42:27 <pikhq> As the only reason for the California court to have jurisdiction would be if *all* defendants had agreed to the PSN terms of service, and as George Hotz is in no way acting together with fail0verflow, I expect SCEA to need to file a new case.
05:43:32 <pikhq> His attorney apparently specialises in defending against the RIAA's P2P lawsuits.
05:48:47 <pikhq> Oh, good. Groklaw's following this case.
05:49:09 <pikhq> ... SCO IS STILL GOING‽‽‽
05:59:21 <pikhq> Sony Computer Entertainment of America.
05:59:29 <pikhq> Which, incidentally, is in Delaware.
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06:00:19 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, they're suing in a state that neither they *nor* their defendants are in, soley because the PSN terms say "you agree to be under the jurisdiction of (some court in California)".
06:00:48 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure that clause even *works* outside of the US.
06:01:28 <pikhq> Well. It certainly doesn't *effectively* work outside of the US; after all, a non-American can just tell US courts to fuck off and die in a fire.
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06:01:53 <pikhq> You're not getting fucking extradited for a civil matter.
06:04:02 <variable> pikhq, if they are not in that jurisdiction that clause shouldn't work
06:06:04 <pikhq> variable: Most of the defendants are not in the jurisdiction of *any US court*.
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06:16:21 <copumpkin> has anyone figured out whether they're suing specifically the named people as constituting fail0verflow, or those plus anyone else who happens to be affiliated with f0f?
06:17:56 <pikhq> copumpkin: They are suing *specifically* fail0verflow.
06:18:14 <copumpkin> of which they happen to know four members as named?
06:18:36 <pikhq> Actually, *three* members as named.
06:18:49 <pikhq> George Hotz is not a member of fail0verflow.
06:18:58 <pikhq> And, in fact, has *no* connection to them at all.
06:19:05 <pikhq> Hector Martin; Cantero; Sven Peter.
06:19:16 <copumpkin> hector martin cantero is one person
06:19:38 <pikhq> Bushing is an alias.
06:19:49 <pikhq> They only named real names.
06:20:09 <pikhq> And then listed the aliases for people that will be included in "Does 1 through 100".
06:20:21 <copumpkin> the documents included plenty of mentions of bushing and segher
06:21:01 <pikhq> I don't think there were others; they are merely presuming that there are an unknown number of other members.
06:21:22 <pikhq> With "1 through 100" as shorthand for "however many of them there are".
06:22:53 <copumpkin> well, it'll be interesting to see how this goes
06:24:39 <pikhq> I imagine that Geohotz and Bushing will have trouble from this.
06:25:07 <pikhq> Everyone else can just mock our insane legal system.
06:26:40 <variable> https://s-hphotos-ash1.fbcdn.net/hs796.ash1/168654_482257016845_714011845_6503407_4647200_n.jpg :-}
06:41:00 <oklopol> variable: are you an actual variable, or one of those stupid fp/math that can't actually change their value?
06:53:41 <oerjan> at least some of the time
06:55:04 <variable> oerjan, yes - when I'm about to be shot, mutilated, or otherwise modified I become const
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06:57:34 <zzo38> Do you know if DVItype has been published in a book? Do you know what would be the proper bibliography citation for it?
06:59:49 <zzo38> variable: I am using Vancouver format.
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07:01:13 <zzo38> Do you know the citation for it, in any format?
07:02:02 <variable> zzo38, what is it and I'll try to tell you
07:02:10 <zzo38> Both the book I am citing and the book I am aking are both computer programs.
07:03:20 <zzo38> It is a file on my computer, I do not know if it has ever been published in a book.
07:03:56 <zzo38> I have both the source file and the DVI file.
07:04:10 <variable> zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. A.b.c. Company Name, 1887. Computer software.
07:05:41 <variable> zzo38, remove "Vers. A.b.c" if you don't know remove the "Company name" AND date published if it wasn't previously published
07:06:05 <zzo38> I do not know if it was published.
07:06:30 <variable> zzo38, then just use Last, First. Software Name.
07:06:44 <zzo38> The program TeX and METAFONT are published (I have the books), but this program DVItype I do not know (it is related to TeX, though)
07:07:52 <variable> zzo38, years ago I wrote a program to automatically generate this for me :-}
07:08:07 <zzo38> I do have "(Version 3.6, December 1995)" and "The preparation of this report was supported in part by the National Science Foundation under grants IST-820 1926 and ..."
07:08:07 <variable> I may rewrite it in Haskell or something - and then publish it
07:08:19 <quintopia> http://www.pa.msu.edu/~aaronson/alitest/aintro.html what are your alignments guys?
07:08:48 <variable> quintopia, D&D alignment test - heh
07:10:02 <zzo38> These things are written on the table of contents page of DVItype
07:10:18 <variable> zzo38, I'm not very familiar with govt. works
07:10:25 <variable> I'd venture to guess that it is
07:10:56 <variable> zzo38, Last, First. Software Name. Vers. 3.6. Computer software.
07:15:40 <variable> quintopia, i only did the first 15 questions: Alignment: True Neutral
07:21:00 <Ilari> Latest figures: APNIC pool is at 39 886 592 IPs. 3.0M-8.0M remain to estimated allocation thresholds...
07:21:06 <zzo38> I have done a few D&D alignment tests, with some different answers on each one, I have gotten NG, CG, and CN.
07:21:36 <zzo38> variable: I think it is not government work. Donald Knuth wrote DVItype.
07:23:17 <zzo38> I also invented some spells and feats and stuff for D&D game.
07:23:46 <variable> zzo38, as in official or homebre?
07:24:08 <zzo38> variable: Just my own spells/feats. But I use the official ones, too.
07:24:09 * Ilari goes ot look how large is APNIC IPv6 pool... :-)
07:25:35 <zzo38> My character is ettercap. My brother's character is human ninja. There are also some NPCs in the party, one of which is otyugh and the others humans.
07:26:28 <zzo38> And almost every one of my actions in the game is strange.
07:27:43 <Ilari> 82 339 124 917 091 486 660 901 601 422 606 336 addresses (99.1% of a block).
07:29:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, wrt mcmap: it could be some off by one error. Even when you edit further down you sometimes get errors. Not corruption like near max alt, but sometimes if you edit just below the top block that edit show up as top on mcmap surface view when it shouldn't
07:30:22 <zzo38> The first page of DVItype is numbered 402, so it seems it might have been a part of some book.
07:30:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, for example I placed a lightstone below an ironblock at altitude 73 and it showed up as a lightstone on mcmap. However it is not reliably reproducible, even in that one spot. Things like that happen every now and then. But far from always.
07:32:14 <zzo38> I have read that it is not allowed to place something in the public domain. But does it apply in Canada? Is it allowed in Canada to make something public domain?
07:32:52 <zzo38> And why is it disallowed?
07:37:39 <Ilari> The reason why public domain might be disallowed is possibility of coercion...
07:39:15 <zzo38> Ilari: Do you have example?
07:48:50 <zzo38> I got algorithm to make plurals working, but can you check to see if there are omissions or anything else wrong with my file?
07:54:32 <variable> most countries follow the Berne convention
07:55:13 <variable> which basically states: "author gets all the rights except if he gives them away (and a bit of fair use like things)
07:56:02 <variable> the closest one could get to placing something in the public domain is by providing an irrevocable, transferable, license to everyone
07:56:27 <variable> the "public domain" is made up by some countries which states that certain types of things don't have a copyright owner
07:56:46 <variable> IE the federal government in the US, and works over X years from the author's death
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08:01:56 <zzo38> Can I make something in the public domain by dictating the US government to write it down exactly as I said?
08:02:37 <zzo38> (Of course this is completely impractical, I am asking if it is possible/legal)
08:03:07 <fizzie> I think that depends whether you use legal means for "incentivizing" them to write what you say.
08:03:57 <fizzie> I believe you can sneak things into public domain by getting them recorded as part of some court proceedings.
08:04:16 <zzo38> Is it legal for someone to sue themself?
08:04:41 <fizzie> Not sure, but you could have an accomplice there.
08:05:04 <zzo38> Can I get something into the public domain by suing myself over the document I wish to make public domain?
08:07:12 <zzo38> I have read somewhere that the DMCA allows Sony to sue themself, I do not know whether or not this is true.
08:12:51 <fizzie> "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist."
08:12:54 <fizzie> Isn't that a bit strange?
08:13:49 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it is a bit strange, I think.
08:16:32 <variable> Disney has a perpetual copyright on mickey mouse IIRC
08:16:38 <variable> zzo38, suing oneself is not possible
08:17:05 <zzo38> variable: Do you know if in Canada, it is permitted to put something into public domain?
08:17:35 <variable> zzo38, I would highly doubt it - but I know little of Canadian law
08:17:35 <fizzie> I think Disney's copyright is just a "de-facto" seems-to-be-extended-all-the-time thing, not something that's actually perpetual.
08:17:48 <variable> I am also not a lawyer and I do not give legal advice
08:18:25 <fizzie> But are you a doctor and can the above be construed as medical advice?
08:18:29 <variable> fizzie, strictly speaking its some insanely long term that congress keeps on extending (there was a supreme court case about the constitutionality of this) but its close to perpetual
08:18:46 <variable> (its sad that I feel I must answer the question seriously)
08:18:57 <zzo38> variable: I am not expecting proper legal advice.
08:19:07 <zzo38> Nor am I expecting proper medical advice.
08:19:34 <variable> zzo38, public domain is basically things that fall outside of copyright law
08:19:52 <variable> in most countries its not really possible to put something in PD
08:21:15 <fizzie> You could just die and then wait a century or so.
08:22:09 <fizzie> I guess if you actually wait a full century, you don't even need to die.
08:22:25 <variable> fizzie, no - its 100 yrs after author death
08:22:32 <fizzie> "95 years from publication or 120 years from creation whichever is shorter (anonymous works, pseudonymous works, or works made for hire, published since 1978)"
08:22:43 <fizzie> "Life + 70 years (works published since 1978 or unpublished works)"
08:22:49 <fizzie> Says Wikipedia's US table.
08:22:58 <fizzie> Yes, but if you publish it anonymously.
08:23:10 <variable> zzo38, actually - after doing some research (read: google) there is some common law about suing yourself
08:24:08 <zzo38> What if I add the following text to the beginning of the document: "This license is secret and its author is not permitted to read/use it, unless it is part of a court case in which case it is public domain. The license conditions end here; what follows is an appendix." and then somehow sue myself over it........
08:24:30 <variable> fizzie, one of my get rich slow schemes is to publish different works under 10 different names forecasting different financial outcomes in a few yrs. Then when one comes true reveal myself as the author of that work and write a new one that I sell for lots of money
08:24:53 <variable> zzo38, you could try to go to congress and get it read there
08:25:09 <variable> (and even if it were criminal you couldn't get prosecuted over it)
08:25:15 <fizzie> France in the table: "Life + 70 years [...] + 30 years for all works if the author died on active service".
08:26:31 <zzo38> variable: Why couldn't get prosecuted over it?
08:27:19 <zzo38> Does the DMCA actually permit Sony to sue themself or is that something that someone else made up?
08:28:01 <fizzie> "Sony" is composed of so many parts that I'm sure they could find some separate corporations to interfight.
08:30:47 <variable> zzo38, one can't be prosecuted for something said/done in the course of a Congressional hearing IIRC
08:30:54 <variable> I'm looking for the exact provision now
08:31:44 <variable> zzo38, "They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."
08:32:08 <variable> but that only applies to members
08:34:22 <variable> zzo38, the idea was to prevent the president from having legislative members arrested before voting
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08:39:44 <zzo38> Project Gutenberg says you can release your own work into public domain by writing a note; this contradicts the description about the WTFPL. And anyways this is for United States. I live in Canada.
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09:02:42 <zzo38> I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format.
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09:10:30 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-01-13/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DilbertDailyStrip+(Dilbert+Daily+Strip)&Page=2
09:10:39 <Sgeo> There's a human spammer?
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11:31:01 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I have idea, I have thought to make a program that converts a ESC/P file for Epson dot-matrix printers into DVI format. <-- I wonder why this would ever be useful
11:34:23 <fizzie> Perhaps he has a large amount of documentation or something in the form of ESC/P files.
11:36:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure what my dot-matrix printer used; it might have been partially compatible, but not very. I do have some conversion programs from raster graphics to that, for image-printing.
11:37:41 <fizzie> No, just something you can run a .png through and then 'lp' it out a raw printcap entry or something. I think this was pre-CUPS.
11:38:34 <fizzie> Speaking of which, I looked at the C1x static asserts; the format is _Static_assert(constant-expression, string-literal), and the semantics are that if constant-expression equals zero, "the implementation shall produce a diagnostic message that includes the text of the string literal". And <assert.h> defines static_assert to _Static_assert.
11:38:38 <fizzie> Rather straight-forward.
11:39:28 <Vorpal> but rather more limited than D's static asserts then?
11:39:40 <fizzie> I don't know what those are like.
11:40:27 <Vorpal> I seem to remember they looked rather interesting when reading ccbi2 source
11:40:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw where did you find the c1x draft?
11:41:49 <fizzie> Well, it's at http://www.open-std.org/Jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1547.pdf -- don't quite remember where I got the link, it's not directly on the WG14 front page, but maybe it's in there deeper somewhere.
11:42:07 <fizzie> ISO working group web pages tend to be a bit unstructured and confusing.
11:42:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, open-std? Isn't that POSIX related?
11:43:11 <fizzie> They have quite a lot of stuff there.
11:43:18 <fizzie> Including the posix workin group page.
11:43:35 <Vorpal> "WG11 - Binding Techniques" I wonder what on earth that is
11:44:05 <Vorpal> also the phrase "Programming languages and, operating systems" looks terribly strange to me. The comma specifically.
11:44:08 <fizzie> "how to make specifications independent of programming languages, and then apply these specifications to the programming languages" -- sounds a bit SWIGgy.
11:44:40 <fizzie> I guess it's not, really.
11:45:06 <Vorpal> hm? that comma was much less out of place to me
11:45:19 <Vorpal> (if that was what you were trying to imply)
11:45:32 <fizzie> No, I just meant the binding stuff is not very SWIGgy after all.
11:45:45 <fizzie> The C standard includes some sort of a "binding" to their "language-independent math" thing.
11:47:43 <fizzie> Oh, and C1x thread functions have a naming scheme that's a bit on the ugly side; all thread functions/macros/whatever are thrd_foo, mutexes mtx_foo, and condition-variable stuff cnd_foo.
11:48:06 <fizzie> Purely as a guess I think they didn't want to have too many namespace conflicts for people who already were using the full words.
11:48:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, uh do they still have the 8 letter identifier thingy?
11:48:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, if so I guess that is why
11:48:48 <fizzie> The names themselves are definitely longer than that, and wasn't it already 31 letters also for external names?
11:49:03 <Vorpal> it used to be 8 somewhere
11:49:44 <fizzie> "31 significant initial characters in an external identifier"
11:49:51 <fizzie> It was in C90, at least, IIRC.
11:50:48 <fizzie> Though re those 31, "each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 0000FFFF or less is considered 6 characters, each universal character name specifying a short identifier of 00010000 or more is considered 10 characters, and each extended source character is considered the same number of characters as the corresponding universal character name, if any"
11:51:39 <Vorpal> why those specific boundaries
11:51:41 <fizzie> So if you use only Unicode characters outside the BMP (say you're programming in old turkic), you're only guaranteed three significant characters.
11:52:06 <fizzie> Sounds like they just thought "okay, no-one can be weird enough to use multibyte encodings longer than *this*, can they?"
11:52:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, it isn't like any mainstream implementation actually cuts off at that 31 char limit anyway
11:53:26 <fizzie> Well, no. (Also you're guaranteed 63 characters in internal identifiers, and there even Unicode chars count as just one.)
11:53:58 <Vorpal> again I doubt any compiler actually cuts off there
11:55:25 <fizzie> C1x also adds u8"foo" UTF-8 string literals, and u"foo" / U"foo" Unicode wide-character (of type char16_t / char32_t, corresponding to UTF-16 / UTF-32, respectively) string literals, and a <uchar.h> header for conflaburating in-between things.
11:56:31 <fizzie> I've seen people assume that wchar_t numbers correspond to Unicode code points before; it's I guess nice to have something that in actual fact always does.
11:57:52 <fizzie> Well, or at least "always does if __STDC_UTF_16__ / __STDC_UTF_32__ are defined", which you can compile-time test easily.
11:59:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, they don't. iirc they are usually 16 bits
11:59:29 <Vorpal> I have no clue what wchar_t actually corresponds to though
11:59:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure how comfortable-to-use the C1x Unicode support is, since they haven't added anything into the stdio formatted-output functions for that.
12:00:30 <Vorpal> hopefully they will add that
12:01:03 <fizzie> It's going to be somewhat messy if they keep the existing "w-stuff" and then add even more "u-stuff" on top.
12:02:46 <Vorpal> I doubt they would drop the w stuff
12:03:20 <fizzie> Well, no. But they might not go through all that complexity to add in the u-stuff.
12:03:40 <Vorpal> hm the bounds checking stuff looks interesting
12:04:06 <fizzie> Incidentally, these GCC-4.4 <stddef.h> parts that pertain to wchar_t are a bit amusing: http://p.zem.fi/wchar
12:05:01 <fizzie> It's like someone's trying to figure out how many ways you can put "wchar" and "t" together for a header-inclusion guard macro name.
12:05:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, is this from somewhere in bits/ ?
12:06:23 <fizzie> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4/include/stddef.h in my machine.
12:06:32 <Vorpal> I thought GCC just provided limits.h and stdarg.h
12:06:46 <fizzie> /* Why is this file so hard to maintain properly? In contrast to
12:06:46 <fizzie> the comment above regarding BSD/386 1.1, on FreeBSD for as long
12:06:46 <fizzie> as the symbol has existed, _BSD_RUNE_T_ must not stay defined or
12:06:46 <fizzie> redundant typedefs will occur when stdlib.h is included after this file. */
12:06:51 <fizzie> The writer seems somehow depressed.
12:07:12 <fizzie> (The "comment above" was a bit longish to paste.)
12:08:16 <fizzie> /* In case nobody has defined these types, but we aren't running under
12:08:16 <fizzie> GCC 2.00, make sure that __PTRDIFF_TYPE__, __SIZE_TYPE__, and
12:08:16 <fizzie> __WCHAR_TYPE__ have reasonable values. This can happen if the
12:08:16 <fizzie> parts of GCC is compiled by an older compiler, that actually
12:08:16 <fizzie> include gstddef.h, such as collect2. */
12:08:28 <fizzie> Any time I take a peek inside, I'm surprised that these things actually for the most part do work.
12:09:33 <fizzie> /* snaroff@next.com says the NeXT needs this. */ /* Irix 5.1 needs this. */ /* This avoids lossage on SunOS but only if stdtypes.h comes first. There's no way to win with the other order! Sun lossage. */
12:12:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of lossage?
12:12:18 <fizzie> I don't know, and the writer doesn't specify.
12:13:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, also "stdtypes.h" sounds suspect. I thought the C standard reserved that prefix
12:14:25 <fizzie> On the topic of "perverse systems": apparently there are some Crays on which size_t is a 32-bit type, as are most pointers, with the exception of "void *"s and "char *"s, which are 64-bit types. (This was in the context of how likely stuffing a pointer into a size_t is to break, as opposed to using uintptr_t which is guaranteed to work but of course only if you actually have uintptr_t and proper <stdint.h>.)
12:14:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, the bounds checking stuff seems confusing in c1x
12:15:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a signed intptr_t?
12:15:31 <fizzie> Well, that too should work, I just wanted to be consistent and use an unsigned type since size_t is one.
12:16:20 <Vorpal> I always found that one highly suspect
12:16:33 <fizzie> It is a bit iffy, yes.
12:16:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway isn't intptr_t/uintptr_t XSI or something? My man page for stdint.h indicates that
12:17:23 <fizzie> They are at least C99 types, though optional.
12:17:33 <fizzie> Since the machine in question simply might not have integers large enough.
12:17:57 <fizzie> (But those Cray boxes do have a 64-bit integer too, it's just that size_t isn't one of them for some interesting reason.)
12:18:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, it constantly amazes me that C didn't end up supporting ternary systems
12:20:08 <fizzie> C1x seems to keep the C99 restriction of "it must be either sign-magnitude, one's-complement or two's-complement, not some sort of freaky weird integer encoding".
12:23:39 <Vorpal> btw, it is interesting how C99 caused POSIX to restrict CHAR_BIT to exactly 8. IIRC with the restrictions C99 introduced and the old restrictions POSIX had on it, the only possible choice was exactly 8
12:28:06 <fizzie> Mhm, right; that seems to follow from the fact that C99 mandates CHAR_BIT >= 8, and since intN_t must be exactly N bits with no padding or fluff, sizeof(int8_t) must always be 1, and POSIX mandates int{8,16,32}_t.
12:28:54 <Vorpal> something like that yes
12:30:15 <Vorpal> hm those bounds checking functions seem rather weak
12:30:41 <Deewiant> Where does it say that intN_t has to take up N bits of space?
12:30:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: "The typedef name intN_t designates a signed integer type with width N , no padding bits, and a two’s complement representation."
12:31:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that C or POSIX?
12:31:24 <fizzie> Well, it was the C1x draft, but I do think it's the same in C99.
12:31:35 <fizzie> (I had that handily open.)
12:32:03 <Vorpal> wait, isn't stdio functions with the _s suffix some sort of silliness that MSVC invented?
12:32:22 <fizzie> The "_s for safe"? Yes, I at least thought those were Microsoft things.
12:32:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, they seem to be in the C1x draft
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12:32:38 <Vorpal> snprintf_s in particular seems utterly silly
12:33:34 <Deewiant> "snprintf_s is equivalent to snprintf, adding run-time constraints that restrict format from being null, n being less than zero and less than RSIZE_MAX."
12:34:14 <Vorpal> RSIZE_MAX... why on earth
12:34:47 <Vorpal> I'm happy with gcc's __attribute__ to warn me about mismatching format strings and null pointers. It works and seems far more useful than that
12:34:52 <Deewiant> "ISO/IEC TR 24731-1 recommends that RSIZE_MAX be defined as the smaller of the size of the largest object supported or (SIZE_MAX >> 1), even if this limit is smaller than the size of some legitimate, but very large, objects."
12:36:00 <Vorpal> oh god, there is gets_s
12:36:27 <Vorpal> but they recommend fgets rather than it
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12:37:23 <Deewiant> gets_s reads lines, fgets reads strings.
12:37:26 <fizzie> It does the bounds-checking, but "maintains a one-to-one relationship between input lines and successful calls to gets_s. Programs that use gets expect such a relationship."
12:37:48 <Vorpal> memcpy_s looks utterly pointless as well
12:37:53 <Sgeo> Why would any program use gets? Isn't that the dangerous function/
12:38:03 <fizzie> Many programs do dangerous things.
12:38:30 <Vorpal> really they should have added strlcpy and strlcat, that would have been way more useful
12:39:21 <fizzie> Well, strcpy_s's buffer-size parameter is at least the sensible one.
12:39:50 <Vorpal> that is indeed an improvement
12:40:22 <fizzie> Also they seem to be reasonably consistently so that there's always the destination buffer and it's size.
12:40:53 <Vorpal> for memcpy it seems utterly pointless however
12:41:35 <fizzie> It's there so that you don't forget to do the check yourself, I guess.
12:41:43 <fizzie> Or to catch it if you do it wrong.
12:42:19 <Vorpal> it seems a lot more annoying to use than gcc's and glibc's stuff.
12:42:30 <Vorpal> and it doesn't even do as much
12:42:45 <Vorpal> no format check for format strings as far as I can see
12:43:06 <Vorpal> memset_s seems utterly stupid
12:43:54 <Deewiant> What's the "gcc's and glibc's stuff" that's equivalent to these
12:45:08 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 does a good job, plus various __attribute__s like nonnull, format, whatever-the-name-was-for-the-one-that-warns-if-you-throw-away-return-value and so on
12:45:44 <Vorpal> the fortify source one is closest to this, and is transparent. I believe Ubuntu has it on at level 1 by default
12:47:11 <Deewiant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags#-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
12:47:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also for gcc, it can sometimes turn it into a compile time check when optimising
12:47:22 <Vorpal> rather than a runtime check
12:47:50 <Vorpal> this is done with various weird __builtin_foo() functions
12:48:05 <Deewiant> That can be done with the _s functions as well, depending on their implementation.
12:48:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, true, but they aren't done transparently. Requires more work
12:49:11 <Deewiant> No, they require less work of compiler writers. :-P
12:49:41 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and they still won't give you a warning if doing something like printf("Error: %s (%d)\n", 42, "Generic error");
12:49:44 <Deewiant> memcpy_s() { if (I don't like your parameters) { abort() or whatever; } else return memcpy(); }
12:50:06 <fizzie> I'd prefer proper "here we actually know the buffer length" checks over "let's put some stuff behind the buffer and see if it gets overwritten" checks.
12:50:12 <Deewiant> Vorpal: No, but that's again difficult.
12:50:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but a lot more useful
12:50:45 <fizzie> It's also a QOI issue and not something that (well, arguably) should be in a language standard. :p
12:50:48 <Deewiant> I'm not sure I agree: if printf fails it's at least almost always obvious
12:51:02 <Deewiant> If memcpy fails it might just corrupt some unrelated data
12:51:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, the latter is still useful. But that isn't what _FORTIFY_SOURCE does afaik. -fstack-protector does that
12:51:45 <fizzie> If it doesn't do that, I don't see how it could even theoretically check for buffer overflows for a dynamically allocated buffer.
12:52:19 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but what about memset_s then. Most probably the most common use for it is to zero fill a buffer. You pass it a pointer, a buffer length, a value to fill with, and how much to fill
12:52:38 <Vorpal> most of the time people probably use memset to fill an entire buffer
12:52:52 <Vorpal> or at least an entire buffer after an offset (in case of realloc or such)
12:53:16 <Vorpal> in which case the two lengths will equal each other. Are you going to write two different code paths for them?
12:53:35 <fizzie> If you feel yourself writing memset_s(buf, max, 0, max), maybe you could then just consider writing memset(buf, 0, max) in that particular row?
12:53:58 <fizzie> Though I guess then you won't get the null-pointer runtime constraint checks.
12:54:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure. I'm just trying to point out that in general these _s variants seem fairly laughably stupid. Possibly with the exception of strcpy_s.
12:54:46 <Deewiant> So far only memset_s seems a bit silly
12:54:48 <Vorpal> haven't looked at that one *does so*
12:55:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and snprintf_s
12:55:13 <fizzie> gets_s is fine if you really don't feel like bothering to actually handle long lines.
12:55:17 <Deewiant> It's what gets should've been in the first place.
12:56:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay strcat_s seems reasonable
12:56:54 <Deewiant> snprintf_s is another one that just does sensible checks that snprintf should've done, but can't now because of backwards compatibility
12:57:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, the null pointer thing?
12:57:54 <Deewiant> No null target or format string, no %n, no null arguments to %s
12:58:18 <Vorpal> %n shouldn't have been there in the first place
12:58:22 <Deewiant> Not sure what an "encoding error" is for sprintf, that may be sensible as well
12:59:14 <fizzie> From what I can tell, the aim here would be that instead of doing something like assert(buf != NULL); assert(arg != NULL); snprintf(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg); you get a runtime-fail-at-least-sort-of-nicely behaviour with just assert(snprintf_s(buf, n, "foo: %s", arg) >= 0); or some-such. (A bit contrived example, but anyway.)
12:59:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, does the checking depend on NDEBUG?
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12:59:42 <Deewiant> And the "you can't pass buffer sizes that span more than half the address space" seems fairly reasonable too, at least by default
13:00:00 <fizzie> I was meaning an always-on assert here. :p
13:00:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that depends. Though I doubt anyone will be insane enough to use this on an embedded system anyway
13:00:26 <Vorpal> at least not the tiny ones
13:00:54 <Deewiant> It seems like a good default, but it should be overrideable
13:01:35 <Vorpal> it would be better to add saner strings instead
13:01:53 <Vorpal> pascal style: <length><data>
13:02:52 <Sgeo> Atomo reminds me a little of Factor
13:25:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: The stack-smashing protection seems to still have this old data leak problem too: http://p.zem.fi/memcpy.c
13:40:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, err. What happened there
13:41:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, also uh, doesn't look like a major issue that it reports the new value. Aids in debugging certainly
13:41:49 <fizzie> Those values are my own printfs.
13:42:07 <Vorpal> then what is the data leak?
13:42:36 <fizzie> In the fact that the "you smashed the stack" error message will blindly follow the new overwritten argv[0] value, and print it out.
13:42:50 <fizzie> If this were a suid-something program, you could use that to read out anything in its address space.
13:43:42 <fizzie> Here I've just read out the "SECRET DATA" string which I could pick from the executable, or just read from /proc I guess, but it's more problematical for suid executables that, say, read out /etc/shadow in memory, then after that have a (exploitable) buffer overflow somewhere.
13:45:10 <fizzie> Anyway, it's an old thing, there's at least one mail about it in Apr 2010 on the full-disclosure mailing list; and I guess it's possible it's already fixed, I'm not exactly using the latest tools here at work.
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14:07:28 <cheater99> MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY
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15:08:34 <fizzie> "mkdir: cannot create directory `misc': No space left on device" -- that's always a nice thing to get from the "project work" filesystem.
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15:26:21 <Vorpal> <cheater99> MY COMPUTER HUNG UP AND I DIDN'T REBOOT IT IMMEDIATELY <-- do you have a hardware watchdog?
15:26:26 <fizzie> No, just a 3.7 terabyte NFS share that is full.
15:26:38 <fizzie> They keep talking about implementing quotas, though.
15:26:44 <fizzie> I think home directories already have some.
15:27:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'd like a "hilbert's SSD".
15:27:09 <fizzie> Filesystem blocks quota limit grace files quota limit grace
15:27:10 <fizzie> 2277M 4096M 4096M 21218 4295m 4295m
15:27:18 <fizzie> Yes, there is a home directory quota.
15:27:57 <fizzie> I should probably clean ~ some day, since there should be mostly code, documents and stuff like that in there.
15:29:07 <quintopia> Vorpal: what would you do with it? it's unlikely you'll ever have an infinite amount of data arriving at once.
15:29:43 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes but even if you have a finite amount you will always have space for it
15:30:30 <fizzie> Also you don't ever need to erase data, so the SSD write-cycle-durability thing shouldn't be an issue.
15:30:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, and in the unlikely event that someone gives you a full HilbertFlashCard you can always copy it all to the SSD
15:31:13 <Vorpal> (note: you need a good data bus for this)
15:31:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, except hm you do need to move data, don't you?
15:31:46 <Vorpal> oh wait I guess it remaps that
15:32:09 <fizzie> If you restrict yourself to getting only finite amounts of data, you can always just append.
15:32:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, that seems like a rather arbitrary limitation
15:33:09 <quintopia> yeah, those realistic assumptions always seem so arbitrary
15:35:39 <quintopia> i suspect seek times would get ridiculous if you need to retrieve data at infinity though
15:35:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, they don't have seek times
15:36:34 <quintopia> the time for the address to get mapped to the correct location and the data to return
15:36:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, besides there is no point infinity. Hilbert's hotel iirc deals with potential infinities
15:37:00 <quintopia> there is an infinite amount of wiring needed there and the signal has to travel at the slow slow speed of light
15:37:32 <Gregor> Mail forwarding, don't fail me now.
15:37:39 <quintopia> yes i know, but imagine retrieiving data from the following sequence of addresses: 2,4,8,16 etc.
15:37:39 <Vorpal> quintopia, unless we just keep halving the size forever
15:37:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, then it can fit into a finite space
15:38:01 <quintopia> after a while each successive bit will take enormously long time to arrive
15:38:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, in fact you can do that in two minute. Half it after 1 minute. Half it after another half minute, then 15 seconds, and so on
15:38:29 <Vorpal> then after 2 minutes you fitted it all into an infinitely small disk
15:38:59 <quintopia> infinitely small? you mean infinitely fine-grained resolution?
15:39:18 <quintopia> i suppose that works, but requires some creative manipulation of physics locally
15:39:32 <Vorpal> quintopia, well duh :P
15:40:29 <fizzie> Gregor: I feel tempted to shout "Don't open that box!"
15:40:41 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, it's a poor name :P
15:41:21 <Gregor> Linux-based game system.
15:41:32 <Vorpal> how many games does it have?
15:41:45 <Gregor> Zero, or thousands if you include emulators X-P
15:42:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, can it run bsnes? I bet pikhq will ask you about this anyway
15:42:17 <Vorpal> so I'm saving time by asking you now
15:42:24 <Gregor> Probably, it can emulate a PSX ...
15:42:35 <Gregor> But if you really want to run bsnes, you're a durp :P
15:42:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:42:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm that sounds rather impressive. What are the specs? And what about battery life
15:42:55 <Gregor> Asking what a durp is is such a durp question to ask.
15:43:00 <quintopia> oh is it like those super-awesome handheld gaming things they have on thinkgeek for hundreds of dollars?
15:43:17 <Gregor> http://openpandora.org/
15:43:20 <Vorpal> using google's "define:" I get "No definitions were found for durp."
15:44:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, looks nice. Was it made with reprap? ;)
15:46:18 <Vorpal> quintopia, except a keyboard large enough to use
15:46:23 <Gregor> quintopia: That's 'cuz it's expensive :P
15:46:48 <quintopia> Vorpal: it's a fucking handheld gaming platform. wtf do you want a keyboard for?
15:46:49 <fizzie> Specwise the hardware is really close to my phone. (Which is also 600 MHz Cortex-A8 ARM + TI 64x DSP + PowerVR SGX530 GPU with a 800x480 touchscreen. Of course the phone's keyboard is really not-for-gaming.)
15:47:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm. chatting in minecraft or something ;)
15:48:04 <quintopia> Vorpal: work on your texting speed. you can type surprisingly fast with your thumbs with practice
15:48:44 <Vorpal> quintopia, depends. Not like I text very often.
15:49:01 <Vorpal> 4-5 SMS / week? Something like that
15:49:23 <Vorpal> quintopia, also I fail to see how it would help with that gaming console
15:49:25 <quintopia> i irc on my phone. i'm not as fast as keyboard yet, but working on it
15:49:34 <Vorpal> a keypad is very different from a qwerty layout
15:49:41 <quintopia> well, you have to practice on the gaming console obviously
15:49:59 <quintopia> ohhhhhhhhhhh you don't have a qwerty keyboard on your phone
15:50:16 <Vorpal> quintopia, I use phones until they break :P
15:51:10 <Vorpal> quintopia, besides if I can't use it with gloves on it isn't worth the money. And resistive touchscreens seem to be getting rare.
15:51:57 <quintopia> yes, you live in a place where you can't get by with thin gloves, don't you
15:52:18 <Vorpal> quintopia, indeed. I use very thick ones when it is -20 C outside and blowing hard. And snowing.
15:52:27 <quintopia> in any case, my qwerty keyboard has actual buttons
15:52:32 <Vorpal> That happened a few weeks ago. Had to use phone to check bus schedule
15:52:42 <fizzie> The physical keyboards don't tend to be large enough for gloveing either.
15:52:55 <fizzie> I tend to just poke at the on-screen keyboard if it's too cold out there.
15:52:57 <quintopia> fizzie: agreed. best to have fingerless mittens in that case
15:53:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. You can manage keypad if you are careful
15:53:10 <Vorpal> quintopia, that is not really an option around here
15:53:35 <quintopia> Vorpal: it is an option anywhere! fingerless mittens are the greatest thing ever!
15:53:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Don't get an iPhone, they blow up at <0 degrees C and Apple's warranty only covers use in 0-35 degrees C. (There was a case in Norway.)
15:53:54 <quintopia> perfect finger coverage when you need it, no hassles when you don't!
15:53:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wouldn't get one anyway
15:54:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, yeah and maemo >>>>>>>>>>>>>> droid
15:54:58 <fizzie> Maemo's pretty much dead now. :p
15:55:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well meego then?
15:55:10 <fizzie> Will see how it goes with MeeGo, right.
15:56:46 <fizzie> They're setting up some sort of a "community firmware update" repository thing for Maemo, since you can't (easily) update packages that are classified as "system" packages from the normal community repositories, and there are quite a few bugfix-patches existing for the system packages too.
15:56:47 <quintopia> why is meego better than droid? what carriers does it work with?
15:57:14 <fizzie> The whole "what carriers does it work with?" thing is something I just never get. Around here the iPhone is the only thing that is ever carrier-locked.
15:57:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, how would the carrier depend on the phone OS?
15:57:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, that makes no sense
15:57:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: Welcome to the US.
15:57:59 <Vorpal> you buy a phone. Then you buy a SIM card. Then you combine the two.
15:58:01 <Gregor> Also, stop calling it "droid"
15:58:07 <quintopia> Vorpal: i judge a phone by the hardware first, the carrier second, and the OS third
15:58:23 <Vorpal> quintopia, well we have no clue since things are not generally carrier locked around here
15:58:32 <Gregor> quintopia: Vorpal refuses to understand how phones work in the US. It's not that he can't, he chooses not to.
15:58:36 <quintopia> Gregor: i'm referring to the motorola droid and droid 2. that's their official name.
15:58:53 <Gregor> quintopia: Oh, since Vorpal was comparing it to maemo I thought we were talking about Android :P
15:58:54 <Vorpal> quintopia, ah I thought you meant "android"
15:59:40 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway if you want a specific phone look at n900 (maemo). Don't think meego is in any phone yet, but it is the successor to maemo
16:00:45 <Gregor> Also, Android rules :P
16:00:48 <fizzie> MeeGo is sort of a hybrid of Maemo and Intel's Moblin. (And I'm a bit doubtful as to how well it'll go.)
16:02:32 <quintopia> yeah the n900 looks roughly equivalent to the droid in terms of hardware
16:02:44 <Vorpal> maemo is more gtk (yay)
16:02:48 <Gregor> It's not REAL Java X-P
16:02:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, iirc meego is qt
16:04:28 <Gregor> Hopin' I actually get mine.
16:04:43 <Gregor> I wanted to write ZEE for it, but have no story/photo person >_>
16:05:06 <Vorpal> so it should work on there
16:05:30 <Gregor> Vorpal: Well, I mean it was the possibility of the Pandora being a nice platform for it that led me to want a Pandora :P
16:06:17 <Gregor> My Eternally Stalled Project *sigh*
16:07:04 <fizzie> Android schmandroid: isn't it so that even on those supposedly "open" phones you have some sort of "jailbreaks"?
16:07:27 <Sgeo> fizzie, that's a function of the manufacturers, not Android itself
16:07:44 <fizzie> Also MeeGo is now Qt instead of GTK.
16:07:45 <Gregor> fizzie: On the actually "open" phones you don't, the ones that you have to "jailbreak" don't claim to be open.
16:07:59 <Gregor> fizzie: However, unlike iPhone, you don't have to jailbreak to run custom software.
16:08:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, how many are open then
16:08:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: Only the "developer" ones.
16:08:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: i.e. ones bought directly via Google.
16:08:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, so in practise they are all closed?
16:09:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes. But a closed Android phone is nowhere NEAR as restricted as a closed iPhone. It's not even a valid comparison.
16:09:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, but it is closed compared to an n900!
16:09:53 <quintopia> i don't know how hard it is to root an android phone
16:10:00 <Sgeo> quintopia, depends on the phone
16:10:02 <fizzie> And the N900 is closed compared to openmoko.
16:10:05 <Vorpal> quintopia, what about compiling a custom kernel?
16:10:07 <quintopia> but developer phones are already rooted
16:10:21 <coppro> yeah, developers effectively get root
16:10:29 <coppro> with non-developers, it varies
16:10:34 <fizzie> The point is not "how hard", it shouldn't be necessary at all.
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16:11:10 <Vorpal> if you buy hardware it should be yours. And it should be up to you what you do with it
16:11:20 <quintopia> this is true, but the apps that depend on rooting target a very small portion of the market, so they are unlikely to change that.
16:11:50 <Gregor> fizzie: For the iPhone, it's basically Apple douchebaggery. For Android, it's mainly around preventing arbitrary /apps/ from getting root, and not giving random-idiot-user the idea that there is such a thing.
16:12:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh right, they don't even come with a proper native userland.
16:12:37 <fizzie> N900 comes with an xterm in the app menu.
16:12:47 <Gregor> Here's the problem: Propose a solution that would allow developers to root without putting total morons in possible jeopardy (keep in mind that morons will click "yes" and put in their password for any reason)
16:13:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, n900 seems to have managed without major issues
16:13:23 <Gregor> Vorpal: n900 has no users.
16:13:27 <quintopia> Vorpal: it does have a unixy filesystem with all of the unixy programs you'd expect though. you can throw a shell on it right off and start doing unixy things.
16:13:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, fizzie uses it
16:14:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems like that nasty evil Gregor thinks so
16:14:21 <quintopia> you are not a significant demographic
16:14:40 <Gregor> fizzie: You're not a USER, people who actually know how the OS works are 0.000000001% of the target market.
16:15:54 <Vorpal> if computers were cars, almost no one would pass the driving test.
16:16:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Most people who use computers without full knowledge don't end up hitting someone with their computer and killing them.
16:17:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, quite, they end up sending a lot of spam
16:17:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: Also, the vast majority of drivers in the US couldn't tell you what a transmission is.
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16:18:03 <quintopia> driving a car doesn't require you to know how to do an oil change, as sad as that sounds. there are people you can pay to do it for you
16:18:12 <fizzie> Gregor: Maemo forums are full of real users. (Complaining about Nokia selling them this confusing... thing.)
16:18:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, do you mean not tell how it works, or do you mean how to use it?
16:18:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: I mean if you said "Does your car have a transmission?", they would say "Durrr, what's that?"
16:19:03 <quintopia> i'm not sure if vast majority would say that
16:19:14 <quintopia> probably a good number of folks with automatics would
16:19:24 <quintopia> but people with sticks probably have some idea
16:19:24 <Gregor> quintopia: Which is ... everyone in the US :P
16:19:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, but uh, do they not know how to change gear?
16:20:00 <quintopia> Vorpal: see previously line about automatic transmission
16:20:00 <Gregor> Vorpal: Manual gearshifts are a slim minority of power-users and mocked sports-car-morons in the US.
16:20:06 <Vorpal> at least here the driving exam is on manual transmission
16:20:18 <Vorpal> heck you hardly ever see automatic transmission around
16:20:23 <quintopia> actually, now it seems like everything's going to CVTs...wonder how long it will be
16:20:26 <Gregor> Vorpal: Why is that "at least"? I don't know how to drive a manual, that doesn't make me a bad driver.
16:20:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, at least as in "at least in this part of Europe, but I don't know about other parts of it"
16:21:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, I fail to see where I implied automatic is bad (except it is less fuel efficient iirc)
16:22:16 <Gregor> "at least" -> "to suggest that you have to be at least a little bit competent," :P
16:22:35 <quintopia> vorpal: you know. those things without discrete "gears".
16:22:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, at least = anyway
16:22:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, says google. It can have many meanings.
16:23:16 <quintopia> tbf, i did read it gregor's way at first
16:23:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm that CVT interesting. How does that work internally I wonder.
16:24:02 <quintopia> it explains 3 or 4 different types of CVT
16:24:07 <Vorpal> quintopia, I was actually checking wikipedia
16:24:50 <Gregor> National Hat Day (USA) is January 15th
16:25:29 <quintopia> i suspect that everything that doesn't need immense amounts of torque and speed simultaneously will eventually be on CVTs in the next half-century or so. They seem much more fuel-efficient than "modern" transmissions
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16:25:53 <quintopia> Gregor: oh goody. i have just the hat.
16:26:36 <Gregor> DISCUSSION INSUFFICIENT :P
16:27:35 <j-invariant> regarding the number which nobody noticed between three and four: I have managed to take a solved rubicks cube and twist it into an unsolvable state
16:27:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm indeed. I suppose you can manually override them for when the road conditions need different gear? Or I guess computers can detect such nowdays
16:29:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, I presume most cars have that?
16:29:11 <Vorpal> since it is likely to be needed quite often
16:29:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, then certainly people will know what transmission is
16:29:30 <quintopia> less often than you'd think around here. this weather is the exception, not the rule
16:29:43 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'm sure there are parts of US where that is not the case
16:30:05 <Gregor> Even here in Indiana where it snows all winter, the roads are plowed well enough that you never need to even use chains.
16:30:06 <Vorpal> Alaska comes to mind. But even in northen mainland US...
16:30:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, plowing doesn't help when you get rain which freezes as it hits the ground.
16:30:48 <Gregor> Last winter I drove an automatic Toyota Echo from Oregon to Indiana and never had to set the gear manually X-P
16:31:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, only when it doesn't get cold very quickly after. This happened last week or so here. Dropped from -1 C with rain to -20 C in a few hours (rain stopped when it went below -3 C or so)
16:31:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, no time to pour salt on every small street
16:32:08 <Vorpal> sand helps to some degree
16:32:21 <Vorpal> and salt doesn't work when it is really cold
16:32:56 <Gregor> I think you've just reduced the affected population of the US to near-zero.
16:33:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, I can't say that sort of weather is common here
16:33:26 <Vorpal> but this winter and the one before have been extreme
16:33:42 <Gregor> The six people in Minnesota who have experienced such weather were simply snowed in :P
16:34:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about Alaska?
16:34:12 <Gregor> They fly or walk, driving is much less common there.
16:34:40 <Gregor> The southern part of Alaska is more temperate, and the rest isn't accessible by road.
16:36:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, I guess they could use snowmobiles or similar. They are popular in the extreme northern parts of Sweden
16:36:50 <Gregor> Although yes, I'm sure that those who drive know damn well how to drive a manual :P
16:37:37 <Vorpal> I wouldn't know how to drive an automatic. Manual I know.
16:37:56 <Gregor> I don't think it's possible to not know how to drive an automatic. You could learn in thirty seconds.
16:38:10 <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK don't drive all winter i hear. that's what their bushplanes are for :P
16:38:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P
16:39:07 <Gregor> Vorpal: If you live in Alaska, you have one. (OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not as much of one as you think)
16:39:12 <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:39:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, how many pedals do you have in an automatic? The usual three?
16:39:54 <Gregor> `addquote <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:39:56 <quintopia> well, everyone in AK are close friends with each other anyway. hell, they can see russia from their front porch :P
16:40:25 <HackEgo> 266) <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
16:40:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, how do you prevent rolling backwards if you are starting uphill then?
16:41:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's what your fancy automatic transmission is for.
16:41:40 <quintopia> idling speed gives you a little bit of forward momentum all the time
16:42:11 <Vorpal> quintopia, so what if you want to stand still, say, waiting for traffic to pass before crossing a major road? Brake down?
16:42:24 <quintopia> keep the brake down or put it in neutral
16:42:25 <Gregor> Or put it in park if you're there for very long.
16:42:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, sounds like it would take more time to start driving from that
16:43:14 <quintopia> you just move your foot to the other pedal...
16:43:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, nor would you with a manual transmission
16:43:45 <Gregor> Vorpal: All you have to do is LIFT your foot from the brake to start moving forward.
16:43:46 <Vorpal> you would just release the clutch more than the equilibrium point. Since you would be in the first gear
16:44:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm true. About the same then
16:44:05 <quintopia> you also have to do a lot of work to get up to speed after that
16:44:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, with manual? Not really.
16:44:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, it comes naturally after all
16:44:41 <quintopia> so does the automatic...naturally as in...you don't do anything :P
16:45:05 <Vorpal> quintopia, yes they sound interesting indeed.
16:50:24 <quintopia> so, question: would you rather have to start a process by pressing 5 buttons in quick succession and then walking away, or by pressing two buttons with a wait of approximately one second in between them. total time is about the same, but in the first case you have to do more work and in the second you have to stand there and do nothing for a whole second.
16:50:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, I would prefer the one that worked on road conditions around here :P
16:51:20 <quintopia> specifically, this is the coice i have for setting my microwave to 1:30
16:51:26 <quintopia> (it runs on no roads around there)
16:51:52 <Vorpal> quintopia, well then, that depends on that operation. I guess I would prefer the one I could run netbsd on
16:53:51 <quintopia> you're creating differences between the two operations that aren't there. this is just two different ways to do the same operation on the same microwave. the only difference is the one i gave and there are no other differences.
16:54:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, I would probably choose randomly between them each time. And also wonder what the point of two ways on the same product was
16:55:04 <Vorpal> then I would realise it was Perl, not Python
16:57:08 <quintopia> this somehow moved me this morning: http://everything2.com/user/Wolfeh42/writeups/January+13%252C+2011
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17:03:38 <zzo38> Star Trek Table of Elementa is very mixed up.
17:04:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm how can you engine brake with automatic? Sure a bit would work but you couldn't control it very well.
17:06:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: Automatic has gears other than "drive", they're not commonly used though. Basically if you put it in first gear, then the engine will clutch and change gears for you when possible.
17:06:26 <Gregor> Vorpal: "Engine breaking" is a technique not commonly known in the US though, I suspect.
17:06:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, here you won't pass driving test if you can't do it nowdays. Because it saves fuel to use it.
17:07:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: It saves fuel on a manual, on an automatic you'll automatically shift down if you brake and slow down anyway.
17:08:16 <Gregor> It also saves on brake pads though :P
17:08:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, if you brake you will surely still engange the brake pads. Which means less fuel saving since more energy gets lost as heat. Simple physics.
17:09:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, update out?
17:09:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was a bug, but then I tried cutting it down.
17:09:59 <Gregor> Vorpal: I'm not arguing that the fuel savings are the SAME, I'm arguing that it's more of a deal for manual than for automatic.
17:10:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, screenshot? I'm using the alternative launcher thingy so I don't need to update to login.
17:10:45 <quintopia> i engine break when i need to, on steep winding rodes
17:11:02 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I'm going to upgrade until ineiros update. And that probably means waiting for bukkit (horrible name), since hmod will be dropped
17:11:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, looks like birch?
17:11:26 <Gregor> Basically, to drive an automatic: Forget everything you ever learned about shifting. If you want to go forward, put it in "D". If you want to go backwards, put it in "R". If you want to park, put it in "P". If you don't want to move or want to slow down, use the brake. That is literally everything there is that is necessary to drive an automatic.
17:11:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or whatever the English word is
17:11:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess painterly is broken now?
17:12:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, and if you want to drive in bad winter conditions?
17:12:25 <Gregor> quintopia: Why? Most people do.
17:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, I can see a very tall tree with all of the leaves bunched up at the top in a snowy biome.
17:12:34 <quintopia> i have to put overdrive on above 45mph to keep the engine from winding up way too high
17:12:35 <Gregor> Vorpal: Then you put on chains and suffer.
17:12:46 <Gregor> quintopia: ... you turn overdrive /off/?
17:12:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, chains? You mean winter wheels with steel studs
17:13:04 <quintopia> Gregor: below 45mph to keep the engine from running too slow
17:13:08 <Gregor> Vorpal: No, I mean chains.
17:13:22 <Gregor> quintopia: You're a poor excuse for an automatic driver X-P
17:13:33 <quintopia> note that OD on my van is a separate gear and not a button on the shifter
17:13:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, you don't use studded wheels?
17:14:05 <Gregor> Vorpal: Not typically. I have a set of chains for the rare occasion that I need more winter traction (read: never), it would be a huge waste to have winter wheels.
17:14:09 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
17:14:25 <Vorpal> quintopia, not around here
17:14:40 <Gregor> In most locales in the US they're wildly illegal.
17:15:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, NOT IN ALASKA I BET ;P
17:15:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: Last I checked, the vast majority of the US is MORE TEMPERATE than Swedeland! SHOCKA
17:15:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, they are only legal during winter here. And during winter you have to use them (or non-studded snow tires) to be legal
17:16:17 * cheater00 shoots death rays out of his empty eyesockets
17:16:23 <Gregor> Vorpal: Can't use chains at all, or they're just not even something done there?
17:16:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, rarely used. Legal if conditions warrants it iirc
17:17:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, but iirc you have to stop and take them off if you get onto a road that don't need them. Which make them inconvenient for most drivers.
17:18:06 <cheater00> as opposed to taking them off at full speed? i can see how that saves time
17:18:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Both chains and studded tires beat the hell out of dry roads.
17:18:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, well yes. But you will have a hard time finding dry roads here this time of the year.
17:18:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway they save lives compared to non-studded winter tires.
17:18:57 <Gregor> Vorpal: So do chains :P
17:19:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, true. Still they are not very common.
17:20:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, also limits speed more iirc
17:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, FWIW, the normal and birch wood don't actually stack on each other.
17:22:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: Again, Sweden vs. USA. We don't swap our actual /tires/ because the need for added traction is only warranted some tiny amount of the time, and in some tiny amount of roads. The vast majority of roads are either plowed and drivable with any ol' all-weather tire, or completely snowed over and not drivable no matter how good your tire augmentation is (i.e. snowmobilable), with the latter being a very small set.
17:22:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well seems reasonable
17:22:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, plowing doesn't perfectly clean a road however.
17:23:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay that makes less sense
17:23:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about other crafting from them?
17:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> None that I know of, although I didn't really bother experimenting.
17:24:01 <Vorpal> "* Reeds magically turned into sugar canes. They still make paper."
17:24:22 <Gregor> Also, Birch makes better root beer (birch beer) than conventional Sarsparilla/Sassafras (or artificial imitations thereof), but noooo, birch beer is hard to find.
17:24:24 <Vorpal> j-invariant, he could add a separate ones
17:24:38 <fizzie> In a studded tire, there may only be up to 50 studs per metre (of circumference), and the maximum extent out of the tire surface is 1.2 mm. (Was trying to find out the state of winter tireage in Finland.)
17:25:10 <Vorpal> "* One secret useful block" <-- mhm
17:25:11 <quintopia> Gregor: birch beer is deliciouuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssssssss
17:25:26 <Vorpal> "* Paintings work in multiplayer" <--- yay finally
17:25:27 <Gregor> quintopia: I KNOW RIGHT
17:25:37 <quintopia> what's that company that makes all those fruit sodas?
17:25:50 <fizzie> December, January and Feburary are the obligatory winter-tire months here.
17:25:51 <quintopia> they made a birch one once and i've NEVER SEEN IT AGAIN SINCE.
17:25:52 <Vorpal> "* Fixed colors going weird on PowerPC" <-- how did that happen
17:26:27 <Vorpal> "* Fixed most lighting bugs in newly generated SMP maps" <--- newly generated. Right. Well I guess it is better than making the server load everything on next start.
17:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> When elliott comes in I am just going to tell him the changes were "there's cake and also two new types of tree."
17:26:35 <Vorpal> could fix it on the fly maybe
17:26:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the cake is a lie surely?
17:27:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, screenshot?
17:29:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re hMod, he just said that it will be dropped when bukkit is ready; my guess is it might still get a Beta 1.2 update. (Unless you've seen something further on it.)
17:29:33 <fizzie> (There are, after all, >1 contributor to the hMod repo.)
17:29:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should have kept a reed handy to start a farm to try to craft cake.
17:30:45 <Vorpal> pretty sure I saw that it wouldn't be upgraded
17:30:48 <Gregor> You make cake ... out of reeds?
17:31:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, not official however
17:31:42 <fizzie> The only thing I saw was the hMod thread, which still states "Bukkit will be superseding hMod. Once Bukkit is ready, hMod will no longer be updated. I no longer have an interest in Minecraft, so this change is for the best." .. and I think Bukkit is quite far from being ready.
17:32:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I have to say that I think this update is the best since Halloween.
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17:33:57 <fizzie> I don't think I have ever milked a cow in MC; I didn't even know they were milkable.
17:34:34 <Gregor> fizzie: What else is milkable?
17:34:48 <Gregor> Logically, all mammals should be, but I'm betting that's not the case!
17:34:55 <fizzie> Probably nothing else.
17:35:05 * Gregor sips from his tall glass of pig's milk.
17:35:09 <fizzie> Sheep are shearable, cows are milkable, pigs are ridable.
17:35:18 <fizzie> The right tool.. er, animal, for the right job.
17:35:41 <fizzie> And chickens are... a nuisance?
17:35:59 <Gregor> IF YOU KICK THEM, DO THEY NOT BLEED?
17:36:09 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not a chicken-specific act, you can kick the other animals too.
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17:36:22 <quintopia> seems like chickens should fly farther though
17:37:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you can't do a thing to them.
17:38:35 <zzo38> Deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-deep-fry them.
17:39:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, you can't do a chicken-specific act that would result a chicken dropping an egg; there's nothing you can do by right-clicking them.
17:39:44 <fizzie> Shallow-fried chicken, for those who want the insides to be raw.
17:40:26 <Gregor> Well can you at LEAST bugger 'em?
17:41:14 <fizzie> 're not hedgehogs, so I'd *guess*.
17:42:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OCTOPODES, NO!
17:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> They drop ink sacs when they die, so I assume they're another source of dye.
17:42:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: And the Minepedia already has pages "Octopus", "Octopi" and "Squid" for it.
17:42:45 <fizzie> Anyhow, where else do you get dye from?
17:43:04 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13217&start=100#p251044
17:44:11 <fizzie> "Inflections: Plural octopuses, octopi, (rare) octopodes"
17:45:52 <quintopia> what does that say about platypus?
17:46:27 <fizzie> "Inflections: Plural platypuses, platypi, (rare) platypusses, (rare) platypodes."
17:46:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I do like the fact that the pretentious-but-not-actually-correct version is the accepted plural.
17:47:18 <olsner> well, the relevant part is being pretentious, not being correct
17:47:23 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They don't list "octopussies" as a valid plural, however.
17:47:42 <fizzie> I'll keep my PLÖTSPLÄTS anyway.
17:48:00 <quintopia> fizzie: octopussies is the only accepted plural of octopussy
17:49:19 <fizzie> Speaking of which, beta 1.2 unsuprisingly breaks mcmap.
17:49:24 <fizzie> Gregor: Platypode, I choose you!
17:51:19 <fizzie> "I added a player list to the client as a gui hack. But then I realized it just listed players in range, not everyone." "So that's a revert. Next update!"
17:51:33 <fizzie> I wonder if in next update it's going to send other-player coordinates too, or just their names.
17:52:11 -!- elliott has joined.
17:53:09 <Vorpal> the alternative launcher works perfectly
17:53:23 <elliott> 19:31:49 <Sgeo> My dad accidentally threw out the melatonin
17:53:24 <elliott> 19:32:00 <Sgeo> I was planning on sleeping tonight
17:53:27 <Vorpal> elliott, the one that asks about updating
17:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott, since there was an update a few hours ago
17:53:55 * elliott creates .minecraft/launcher
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17:55:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm planning on making my Minecraft the most ridiculously CPU and GPU-intensive program ever.
17:57:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Specifically, I am going to use an HD texture pack (probably Aza's), run on far/fancy, have Better Light installed, and use that arbitrary-GLSL-shader module, with the modified Depth of Field shader (and possibly the Even Better Light one the author showed, if it's released and I can get them to merge; it basically did full lighting, including redstone torch lighing being red, with shaders; beautiful screenshot).
17:57:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well new blocks so if you update you need to use the standard texture pack for now
17:57:17 <Vorpal> or things will look weird
17:57:29 <elliott> Sure. But it's the principle.
17:57:46 <elliott> It'll look ridiculously good.
17:58:00 <elliott> Go away, Notch. We can see your textures.
17:58:24 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe you could use some sort of a custom vertex/geometry shader/mod that'd also smooth the block edges so that the terrain wouldn't be so blocky!
17:58:29 <cheater00> elliott: all that just to make it like a pre-1995 game?
17:58:41 <elliott> cheater00: It... does not really look pre-1995 like that.
17:58:56 <cheater00> in what way does it look pre 1995 then?
17:59:44 <cheater00> Gregor wins the spelling bee prize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so going to use the alternative launcher and play on the server?
18:00:12 <elliott> I doubt it, the server will probably go vanilla soon.
18:00:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well until then
18:00:26 <Gregor> cheater00: OH BOY IM GONNA USE IT TOO BYE ALOT OF CANDY
18:00:29 <elliott> depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/
18:00:49 <cheater00> elliott: i bet it could run on this: http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop
18:01:15 <elliott> Vorpal: here's the really cool (and afaik unreleased) one, shader light: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/
18:01:31 <Vorpal> <elliott> depth of field example: http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshot20110107at111.jpg/ <-- this reminds me of those clay-animation games somehow.
18:01:46 <cheater00> elliott: the polycount is the giveaway
18:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it looks like it is made out of cardboard boxes and so on.
18:01:54 <cheater00> elliott: there were DOF mods for unreal 1 engine
18:02:09 <elliott> games in 1995 did not look like that, in general.
18:02:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean it really looks like someone made a miniature set and took photos in it. The other one is nice
18:02:37 <fizzie> The first Unreal game was released in 1998.
18:02:49 <elliott> yeah the depth of field is a bit extreme, i'd tweak it a bit
18:02:49 <cheater00> yes, but the first tech demo was leaked in 94
18:02:51 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/
18:03:05 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. look at the stairs on far, look around, notice it warbling
18:03:08 <cheater00> Vorpal: have you seen those photos of real life that are minified? :D
18:03:10 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't there anisotropic filtering or whatever to do that?
18:03:15 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
18:03:21 <cheater00> they use like a really long exposure and a moving lens :D
18:03:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: btw, mipmapping, to stop the ugly warping when playing on far: http://img443.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20110108at101.png/ <-- that is the light pic
18:03:32 <elliott> Vorpal: that'll give you the same problems as anti-aliasing
18:03:36 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
18:03:38 <fizzie> Even Descent 1 doesn't quite qualify "pre-1995", since it came out in 1995. (But it had some coloured lights, IIRC.)
18:03:38 <elliott> see the screenshot there :P
18:04:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure. I doubt my CPU could handle it
18:04:40 <elliott> Vorpal: err. it's likely to cause less load
18:04:47 <elliott> Vorpal: all it does is use less pixels the further away the texture is
18:04:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well mipmapping yes
18:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the other ones
18:05:25 <cheater00> elliott: causes it to use multitexturing though
18:05:43 <cheater00> using less pixels just lowers the necessary bandwidth
18:06:22 <Vorpal> (well I doubt that will matter)
18:06:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, um, what are the new tree types.
18:06:47 <Vorpal> elliott, birch tree is one iirc
18:06:53 <elliott> Knee-jerk "I don't like it" at this point.
18:07:00 <Gregor> The other is the Tree of Knowledge.
18:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Birch and a single sighting of a conifer-shaped one in a snowy biome.
18:07:10 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover said best update since halloween
18:07:16 <elliott> "A bunch of new crafting recipes" Oh joy.
18:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because it did something *other* than breaking everything.
18:07:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who knows. Might have broken stuff.
18:07:49 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Bonemeal what
18:08:17 <cheater00> http://img689.imageshack.us/i/minecraftmip.png/
18:08:27 <cheater00> now if they added per pixel lighting to the whole thing
18:08:46 <elliott> cheater00: Better Light does ambient occlusion.
18:09:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Some Minepedia file-uploader seems to think the trees are aspens. (Which sounds rather unlikely.)
18:09:26 <Vorpal> cheater00, nah, go for FPGA-based real-time raytracing!
18:09:37 <cheater00> Vorpal: speaking of fpgas, i am slowly learning
18:09:46 <cheater00> Vorpal: soon, i'll be simulating neurons in fpga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
18:10:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is the cake good for?
18:10:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, does it stack at least?
18:10:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Cake is absolutely useless AFAIK, but I'm going to make some anyway.
18:10:53 <fizzie> Edible items don't tend to stack.
18:11:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It does heal 1.5 hears "every use, and you can use it 6 times".
18:11:51 <Vorpal> elliott, seems like paintings were fixed in SMP. So some good news.
18:11:53 <fizzie> According to Minepedia, anyway.
18:12:40 <elliott> I wonder if I should try and put optimine into that big hodge-podge of mods I'm installing.
18:12:45 <elliott> It might, you know, make this actually feasible.
18:13:34 <elliott> Exactly what it says on the tin.
18:13:40 <elliott> SPAWNIN' NEXT TO CLAY OH YEAH
18:14:27 <zzo38> I think "octopodes" is correct and "octopi" is incorrect.
18:15:42 <zzo38> j-invariant: I don't think so.
18:15:57 <elliott> Monster spawners work in daylight, right?
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18:16:11 <j-invariant> two of them are an octopair, three are an octet, five are an quintopus, seven are a septopode
18:16:20 <copumpkin> octopodes if you're pretentious, octopi if you're pretentious and clueless, and octopusses if you can't be bothered
18:16:21 <zzo38> fizzie: But octonions is different.
18:16:58 <fizzie> "Octopuses" is the most common plural, they say.
18:17:04 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:17:07 <elliott> Do monster spawners require a certain area around them?
18:18:02 <fizzie> I could quote the OED entry in whole, since I still have the tab open: "The plural form octopodes reflects the Greek plural; compare octopod n. The more frequent plural form octopi arises from apprehension of the final -us of the word as the grammatical ending of Latin second declension nouns; this apprehension is also reflected in compounds in octop-: see e.g. octopean adj., octopic adj., octopine adj., etc."
18:19:23 <elliott> they work in daylight don't they
18:19:56 <zzo38> For the pluralization tables of Plain TeXnicard, it will make "octopuses" which the reference which I took the data from, says is correct, but it also says "octopodes" is correct. I selected the Anglicise plurals to make the rule lists simpler.
18:20:51 <elliott> Though placing torches around the spawner or otherwise lighting the area will prevent monsters from spawning, the only sure way to prevent a Monster Spawner block from spawning monsters is to destroy it.
18:20:56 <elliott> In rare cases where the dungeon is located near the surface, the player can remove the ceiling of the dungeon and expose the Monster Spawner and surrounding area to direct sunlight, preventing monster spawns during the day [1].
18:21:11 <elliott> skeletons aren't very useful are the
18:21:31 <oklopol> if you put stuff around it, probably it can't do much?
18:21:35 <elliott> oklopol: scared dammit scared
18:21:59 <Gregor> <elliott> Meh meh meh I'm afraid of the walking dead oh woe is me durp durp
18:22:06 <oklopol> well just a few layers of dirt, takes just a couple seconds and you'll have your own monster spawner for later
18:22:30 <elliott> 6 iron ingots (thanks chest)
18:22:46 <elliott> So... woo, now fuck, it's gonna be nigth soon and I have no house
18:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That birch tree is hideous.
18:23:23 <oklopol> elliott: by 6 iron ingots DO YOU MEAN 6 STACKS OR 6 BIG BOXES
18:23:45 <oklopol> lol i have like 10 boxes in my base.....................
18:24:04 <oklopol> by having played one night
18:24:13 <oklopol> do you mean having played one stack of nights or a big box of nights
18:24:29 <fizzie> oklopol: Or bix box of night-blocks crafted out of 9 nights?
18:24:33 <elliott> i mean this is the first day
18:24:43 <elliott> fizzie: hey what should i build my house out of, SAND? lololololol
18:25:09 <fizzie> elliott: Build it out of Lapis Lazuli, the "misterious Ore/Block added in Minecraft Beta 1.2 .The only known use is for make the Blue Dye"
18:25:16 <oklopol> elliott: you could craft some emos out of night blocks
18:25:17 <fizzie> (Punctuation as in the source.)
18:25:19 <Gregor> Cool houses are built of pure obsidian.
18:25:28 <elliott> I just read "lapis lazuli" yesterday... Baader-Meinhof.
18:25:35 <fizzie> Gregor: The ICE HOUSE is the coolest house.
18:25:36 <elliott> Gregor: Do you play MC, or do you just know things X-P
18:25:50 <Gregor> elliott: I'm talkin' REAL LIFE, bitch!
18:25:53 <elliott> j-invariant: you can get under-beach caverns, touching one bit of the roof destroys it all :D
18:25:57 <elliott> j-invariant: well, makes it all fall
18:26:42 <oklopol> what? that was like the only reason to have finite height world
18:26:55 <Slereah> Did anyone ever do a computer in minecraft?
18:26:58 <oklopol> that sand can be realistic without the coder having a brain
18:27:01 <Slereah> Since it seems to have logical gates
18:27:11 <oklopol> Slereah: yes, even i know that
18:27:19 <elliott> so what should i do with my 6 iron ingots
18:27:32 <oklopol> elliott: wait till you have more, iron blocks are sexy
18:27:45 <elliott> Slereah: google minecraft cpu
18:27:51 <elliott> oklopol: not like, armour? :P
18:27:55 <fizzie> Maybe the iron block house.
18:29:57 <fizzie> elliott: So that DOF shader, does it "focus" on the distance the crosshair is on?
18:30:17 <fizzie> Slereah: Or until you use the bukkit as furnace fuel.
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18:30:28 <elliott> fizzie: The screenshot is from a modified version later in the thread.
18:30:30 <Slereah> When you have infinite wood
18:30:37 <elliott> it's getting dark, and my house isn't even vaguely done :(
18:30:48 <elliott> and lose all my amazing first-day possessions
18:31:19 <Slereah> If it's just first day, it doesn't matter much
18:31:46 <elliott> Slereah: I have a ton of clay, 6 iron ingots, a decent bit of wheat, bread, two saddles, 8 string, and wood.
18:32:08 <elliott> That is a good first day that makes me NOT WANT TO DIE
18:32:15 <elliott> oklopol: yes, but I got the clay and wood from spawn
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18:32:36 <Slereah> He is Spongebob Squarepants
18:32:43 <elliott> my first house will be a tower
18:33:53 <elliott> should i make a pick, sword, armour, or what with my ingots
18:34:03 <elliott> Slereah: on top of a tower?
18:34:30 <elliott> tell me what to do with my ingots
18:34:30 <Slereah> That is not really a tower
18:34:40 <elliott> Slereah: keeps me away from creepers
18:34:50 <elliott> hope they don't blow up my fucking clay :D
18:34:54 <elliott> Vorpal: first night, i have 6 iron ingots
18:34:59 <elliott> Vorpal: what should i do with them
18:35:05 <Slereah> Picks go away pretty quickly
18:35:09 <Vorpal> elliott, switch to peaceful
18:35:12 <Slereah> So usually stone is better for that
18:35:21 <elliott> Slereah: i have no stone tonight :D
18:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, whatever you feel is best then
18:35:26 <Slereah> Armor might help, but I ouldn't do it on the first day
18:35:33 <fizzie> elliott: Craft: iron HOE + iron SHOVEL.
18:35:36 <Slereah> elliott : Wood pick, mine some stone, make stone pick
18:35:38 <fizzie> The most important tools evar.
18:35:45 <Vorpal> elliott, probably sword then armor?
18:35:46 <elliott> Slereah: CAN'T MINE STONE ON THE FIRST NIGHT
18:35:59 <oklopol> fizzie: shovel is much more useful than axe imo
18:36:04 <elliott> sword is top priority, but is an iron sword worth it?
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18:36:25 <elliott> Vorpal: can't really do armour AND anything else
18:36:30 <elliott> boots would leave me with only 2 iron!
18:36:31 <fizzie> elliott: Wait, no, no, wait: six, you say? You can make a minecart! (And then one shovel.)
18:36:35 <oklopol> elliott: yes, the enemies will be too afraid to come close
18:36:43 <Slereah> elliott : Wait for morning
18:36:51 <elliott> Slereah: there will be lots of monsters below
18:36:56 <elliott> I need to be equipped to fight them
18:37:01 <elliott> a stone sword doesn't sound "equipped" to me
18:37:21 <elliott> as i said, i could only make one piece of armour
18:37:27 <fizzie> Slereah: What's the recipe for an iron flee?
18:37:27 <elliott> also, hard to flee when i'm dismantling my house
18:37:49 <Slereah> If it's one block tall, just walk
18:38:06 <fizzie> You could also make 16 minecart tracks and make a rectangular loop, then repeatedly run it.
18:38:11 <elliott> Slereah: It is about 40 blocks of clay tall.
18:38:27 <Slereah> Are you far from your spawn point?
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18:38:50 <Slereah> Locate it because it is tall
18:39:00 <elliott> I would jump into nice, relaxing, non-dying sea.
18:39:26 <Slereah> It's not really a game for fighting monster, really
18:39:29 <elliott> Nonetheless: what do I do with my 6 iron that will help me best on the first night? I'm leaning t'words sword at this point.
18:39:31 <Slereah> especially on the first night D:
18:39:34 <elliott> Iron sword should kill off enemies pretty quickly.
18:39:51 <elliott> Just whack 'em with the sword. Duh.
18:39:58 <elliott> Slereah: Eh, if you have full armour and a good sword you can stay outside all night.
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18:40:54 <elliott> "void main() is not legal in C++ but is legal in C." Whoa.
18:41:05 <Slereah> Which prolly won't happen at night
18:41:28 <Slereah> I'm lucky if I can find coal on the first night
18:42:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png
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18:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It does essentially nothing, other than dying things blue.
18:44:31 -!- Oklopol has joined.
18:45:06 <Slereah> Make a colorful fortress of doom
18:45:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so now you can have your bluestone? *ducks*
18:45:31 <Slereah> Cactus are useless, though
18:45:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: fizzie: Behold, the PERMA-LITE: http://i.imgur.com/Jghek.png <-- what
18:46:03 <elliott> Just accidentally made an iron pickaxe :P
18:46:25 <Slereah> Well, it will be useful if you encounter some redstone or diamond
18:46:55 <Slereah> Is that why everything is made of
18:47:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I can make a house in the style of Edinburgh's New Town!
18:48:14 <elliott> Pickaxe, sword, and axe. Guess I'm set for day.
18:48:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Is it craftable from sand and stone?
18:48:41 <Vorpal> oh no he will add lanterns further on
18:49:04 <elliott> Creeper circling my precious clay house.
18:49:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm sure we can get a kit :P
18:49:29 <elliott> Yeaaaaah, that doesn't help SSP.
18:49:40 <elliott> "Lanterns are planned crafted objects which were originally planned to be introduced in the Halloween Update. This feature was delayed because of the lack of time and will be implemented in a future update."
18:49:41 <Vorpal> elliott, true but I have large stocks there
18:49:46 <elliott> It's easier than fucking music blocks, Notch.
18:50:02 <Vorpal> elliott, less nice than those though
18:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so what is the new useful block?
18:50:18 <Gregor> Music blocks? Do you bounce off of them?
18:50:22 <Oklopol> erm, what is special about a lantern?
18:50:27 <elliott> Oklopol: torches will go out
18:50:29 <Oklopol> couldn't he just copy paste the code from torches?
18:50:31 <elliott> and need flintn'steel to relight
18:50:32 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:50:43 <oklopol> obviously there is no reuse of any line of code
18:50:47 <Gregor> elliott: Mario is shaking his head in shame.
18:50:58 <elliott> oklopol: he writes the 3d rendering code for each block individually!
18:50:58 <oklopol> but it should still be trivial to add lanterns...
18:51:21 <oklopol> yeah, then makes texture files by taking screenshots so that it looks like he's not a retard
18:51:54 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, but y'see, maybe he was worried about there not being enough time to playtest it for balance problems.
18:54:34 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Didn't he roll back the "non-monster-spawn light level depends on depth" thing real fast because of difficulty issues.
18:54:58 <elliott> It's a really stupid idea.
18:55:13 <elliott> It only makes sense as part of the Bluestone proposal, where you could power a torch indefinitely with a generator anyway.
18:55:21 <elliott> Assuming you get enough bulk fuel, which shouldn't be too difficult.
18:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes secure mines impossible until you can make a nether portal, which requires vast amounts of mining in the first place.
18:55:30 <elliott> You can just throw coal in to keep everything you use going.
18:55:36 <oklopol> well obviously the game needs either bots or a huge amount of players
18:55:41 <oklopol> so you can use them as bots
18:56:03 <elliott> oklopol: make smp bots, the protocol isn't that hard :)
18:56:30 <oklopol> i wanna make my bots in-game
18:57:03 <elliott> Vorpal: please tell those guys at Umeå universitet to stop using their internet connection, i'm downloading ubuntu packages
18:57:17 <elliott> Vorpal: they host my ubuntu mirror
18:57:23 <elliott> go tell them off for hogging the pipe
18:57:32 <elliott> you're in sweden, shouldn't be hard to get there
18:57:55 <Vorpal> elliott, you realise the distance to there from here is longer than from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland?
18:58:27 <elliott> Vorpal: you want me to go tell Phantom_Hoover off? i can do that, sure
18:58:39 <Gregor> The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P
18:58:50 <elliott> Gregor: your face is pathetic
18:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you think would happen
18:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> The distance from the south tip of England to the north tip of Scotland is pathetic :P ← and elliott is talking about north England to south Scotland.
19:00:34 <Gregor> What is it, like 700 miles? Less?
19:00:35 <Gregor> (I forget if that still works)
19:01:01 <Gregor> In my country, blah blah blah it's bigger is the point.
19:01:02 <fizzie> Gregor: Google Maps Labs has added a distance measurement tool now.
19:01:41 <fizzie> It can even measure the length of a polyline if you like.
19:01:44 <elliott> Gregor: I realise you're compensating for your lack of size in other areas. It's okay.
19:02:05 <fizzie> (And report results in Ångströms or light-years.)
19:02:40 <Gregor> In my country, you can drive 1,000 miles and see no appreciable change in dialect, accent, religion or ethnicity!
19:02:40 <Gregor> Also, you can drive 2,000 miles to the same effect :P
19:02:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about parsec?
19:02:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: That, too. And TeX points.
19:02:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, not on the east coast I bet
19:03:04 <Gregor> elliott: Any lack of size there could only have been inherited from the UK, but at least we have our teeth :P
19:03:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Less so on the east coast, but the east coast is still WAY more homogenous than anywhere in Europe.
19:03:49 <fizzie> Gregor: In my country, you can drive a million miles with no change. (Admittedly you need to be driving in a small circle.)
19:04:49 <Gregor> Oh yeah, well in my country you can drive a parsec with no change (in a rather large circle)
19:06:04 <Vorpal> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Dispenser <-- oh they can fire arrows, nice
19:06:17 <fizzie> Well in my country you can drive infinity plus 999 miles!
19:06:49 <Vorpal> in my country you can drive an uncountable infinity distance
19:07:18 <Vorpal> not only in a circle. But also in a square with rounded corners!
19:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, that is officially the best thing to happen to MC since sliced bread.
19:08:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah mods have been able to do this for ages
19:09:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well for server mods that would be hard
19:09:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, craftbook had an IC to do it
19:09:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also an arrow barge one
19:11:42 <Sgeo> I think I'm looking into Atomo again
19:12:31 <Gregor> `echo It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P
19:12:33 <HackEgo> It's not slowness, it's unimplementedness :P
19:12:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, working on making mcmap work with this new one?
19:13:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/calc
19:13:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not at the moment; do you have some local server you'd like to run it against?
19:14:06 <Sgeo> Hold on, let me check
19:14:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, my local server runs hmod and movecraft, so not very
19:15:15 <Sgeo> http://eterna.cmu.edu
19:15:22 <fizzie> Right. The protocol docs seemed updated already, but I'll probably patch mcmap when there are some uses for it.
19:15:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, collecting flowers on ineiros's server atm
19:16:07 <fizzie> It'll be a backwards-incompatible change anyway; I don't really feel like supporting multiple protocol versions, since Notch doesn't bother anyway.
19:16:20 <fizzie> Are flowers a renewable resource? I guess not.
19:18:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ^
19:19:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Going to update the WooW flora room "reed" sign, now that they're sugar instead?
19:19:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, do they still grow next to water
19:20:04 <Vorpal> if so it sounds like reed
19:20:19 <fizzie> I don't think the semantics have been changed.
19:22:28 <fizzie> "Like the real plant, sugar cane must be planted on a grass/dirt block immediately adjacent to water, --"
19:32:20 <j-invariant> I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it :|
19:32:43 <elliott> I still haven't found my sugar cane
19:32:50 <elliott> I came across some so I trimmed it and replanted then lost it"
19:33:01 <elliott> "god damn it / I still haven't found my sugar cane", by J. Invariant.
19:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, hey, wait till you try to find some eggs.
19:33:26 <elliott> imagine it being read in a serious voice by a 60-year-old poet
19:41:52 <oerjan> elliott: needs a blues melody i think
19:43:39 <quintopia> god damn it i still haven't found nananeenernanun
19:43:57 <quintopia> my sugar can cane i came across some nananeenernanun
19:44:29 <quintopia> so i trimmed it and replanted nananeenernanun
19:44:44 <quintopia> then lost it colon pipe nananeenernanun
19:50:41 <oerjan> well it surely _looked_ as if quintopia had snapped *ducks*
19:51:15 <quintopia> gregor: ce n'est pas une colon pipe
19:51:36 <elliott> ceci nest p'as none colon pipe une
19:52:04 <oerjan> cesium is no colon pipe
19:53:09 <oerjan> ...i think that may be illegal
19:53:46 <Gregor> Go go gadget colon pipe?
19:54:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: The sucked up fleep channel | I'll suck up ALL your fleep, baby! Right through the colon pipe. | http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or (hg) http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/.
19:54:26 <quintopia> no not the gadget skates! whooooaoaoaOOOOOAAAA
19:55:03 <oerjan> Gregor: do we _really_ want to scare away the newbies before getting them addicted?
19:55:25 <Gregor> oerjan: HEY, don't make me reintroduce your colon pipe.
19:55:31 <elliott> i'm currently optimising my procedure, i think i can filter out the worthy ones even quicker than i did with the xkcd guys
19:55:39 <elliott> basically i start by killing their family
19:55:44 <elliott> and then i yell in their ear for 24 hours
19:55:54 <Gregor> oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now.
19:55:55 <elliott> those that then create seventy languages of oklopol-level pure beauty then go onto the next stage
19:55:58 <oerjan> NO! NOT YELLING IN THE EAR!
19:56:06 <oerjan> that's just plain _cruel_
19:56:07 <elliott> oerjan: YELLING INSULTS NO LESS
19:56:15 <elliott> yeah they usually beg me to just like
19:56:18 <elliott> kill their grandparents too
19:57:05 <quintopia> at least not until they release another album
19:57:37 <Vorpal> <Gregor> oerjan: My piping is 2" PVC now. <-- play music on it
19:58:11 * elliott plays music on his colon pipe
19:58:11 <oerjan> it's Vorpal what do you expect
19:58:24 <elliott> someone seize it before it explodes with music
19:58:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, I thought you would expect that from Gregor
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19:59:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure we've discussed PVC instruments on this channel before
19:59:39 <Gregor> OK, done with the colon pipe discussion then :P
19:59:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, they are quite interesting
19:59:42 <elliott> http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/
19:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, any colon pipe there?
19:59:57 <Gregor> I do want to make a PVC xylovibraglockenphone.
20:00:09 <elliott> geez you are all obsessed with my colon pipe
20:00:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, what exactly is a xylovibraglockenphone
20:00:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, any photo of one?
20:01:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: I'm referring of course to the family of instruments including the xylophone, vibraphone, marimba and glockenspiel.
20:01:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/ <-- link dead, goes to geocities
20:01:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, you might want to update that link
20:01:21 -!- j-invariant has joined.
20:01:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, also images on http://codu.org/pvcinstruments/baritonetrombute.php broken
20:01:44 <quintopia> it's a cross between and vibraphone a glockenspiel and a xylophone and a drumbone for good measure
20:01:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, and that is your local stuff
20:02:00 <Vorpal> http://codu.org/pics/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=3 <-- 404
20:02:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: That I'm aware of and haven't bothered to fix :P
20:02:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, how does it look then?
20:02:26 * quintopia looks forward to the next blue man gregor concert
20:02:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: I didn't even put instructions on my PVC trombone there :P
20:03:04 * oerjan finds a reference to "ass pipe" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_Virgin_Islands
20:04:13 <fizzie> PVC saxophone? (I haven't been following the context.)
20:04:16 <Vorpal> elliott, so how is the new minecraft version?
20:04:25 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't really played, but it seems stable enough.
20:04:31 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm not sure how to make a single reed, and valves are borderline impossible.
20:04:55 <Vorpal> elliott, downside is of course that you can't play on current server atm unless you use alternative launcher
20:12:19 <Gregor> "trombaxophone" has only one result on Google D-8
20:16:16 <pikhq> Among other things, Sony submitted *the actual keys* in court documents.
20:16:35 <pikhq> Meaning that the "circumvention device" they seek to prevent the distribution of is a matter of public record.
20:17:48 <Gregor> Sort of like those scenes in movies where somebody knows they're being watched by the good guys and says "Boy I sure hope they don't find the key under the mat that goes to the back window, since there are no sentries posted to the left of that window!"
20:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely they didn't do something that barefacedly stupid.
20:20:10 <copumpkin> pikhq: in that series of screenshots?
20:20:21 <pikhq> copumpkin: In that gigantic pile of screenshots.
20:20:42 <pikhq> Page... 247 of court document 4.
20:21:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Remember that the keys were already released because Sony doesn't know the meaning of "random".
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20:22:06 <Gregor> pikhq: It was random, it just had a very small range.
20:22:17 <Gregor> Namely, a single value.
20:22:27 <Gregor> copumpkin: HALLO MR I-DUNT-GET-JOKES
20:22:43 <pikhq> Though even if it were random *with a known bias*, the keys would still be vulnerable.
20:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, indeed, but there's failing to be cryptographically secure due to skimming the textbook and there's publishing them on a document you *know* is going to be public.
20:22:55 <pikhq> (this was the issue with the whole Debian OpenSSL thing)
20:23:52 <pikhq> http://www.thesangreal.net/gaf/sony.zip Well, this zip has all the stuff submitted by SCEA so far.
20:24:03 <pikhq> The pile of screenshots is in 04.pdf
20:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Christ on a pogo stick, wheat takes ages to grow in MC.
20:25:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it always done?
20:26:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: As opposed to real life, where you pretty much drop it in the ground, go get coffee, then make bread.
20:26:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it takes ages to grow in real life too. The issue is that trees grow unrealistically fast in mc.
20:26:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, and where you can break solid stone with your bare hands.
20:26:34 <Vorpal> you need months in real life
20:26:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is some nice karate!
20:27:02 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You can if you're not some kind of PUSSY.
20:27:24 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: (And also it's sandstone)
20:27:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is sandstone?
20:27:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:28:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I meant, chemically
20:28:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a rock made of lightly-cemented sand.
20:28:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I know what sandstone looks like
20:28:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not familiar with that jargon *googles it*
20:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Trust me, I live in a city where the primary building material is sandstone.
20:29:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Then if you can't smash through your buildings, then I guess you're just some kind of PUSSY.
20:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> If you could punch apart houses in less than a day, there wouldn't be a house standing.
20:30:00 <quintopia> wrecking balls in the next update?
20:30:09 <Gregor> Rabid house-punching squads are destroying New York! D-8
20:31:02 <copumpkin> I like all the ads in the documents
20:31:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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20:31:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what can't you smash even sandstone!?
20:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd have thought they'd have gone over the keys with a marker pen or something.
20:32:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, never tried. I'd assume so
20:33:05 <elliott> I hope Vorpal goes and smashes Edinburgh now.
20:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit too far to travel
20:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Subtitle if it's published in the Evening News: "Believed to be tram contractor."
20:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the Evening News is the local rag, which views the council and the tram system which is being built in a similar light to that in which paedophiles are viewed by lesser tabloids.
20:35:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the tram?
20:35:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Because the council did it and it's not exactly been done with the greatest of competence.
20:36:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why do they hate the council?
20:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Tram-talks-off-till-March.6689138.jp
20:36:58 <elliott> I would love to live in a city where trams are treated like paedophiles.
20:36:58 <Gregor> Because the council is the government.
20:37:04 <elliott> It just sounds ... amazing.
20:37:10 <elliott> "Trams: Is YOUR child next?"
20:37:27 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> IO b) -> IO a -> IO b
20:37:28 <lambdabot> Control.Exception bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:28 <lambdabot> Control.OldException bracket :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:28 <lambdabot> Control.Exception bracketOnError :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> (a -> IO c) -> IO c
20:37:29 <Gregor> *picture of young child riding a tram, onlookers stare in horror*
20:37:45 <elliott> *picture of young child riding a paedohpile, onlookers stare in horror*
20:38:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, if you spell paedophile without an 'a' you are obviously a paedo.
20:38:59 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but at least I'm an AMERICAN (not some filthy Amrican)
20:39:57 <fizzie> elliott: Re optimine, intriguingly "The FasterRender mod by @Scaevolus is included in beta 1.2, please let us know if it helps! And send him your regards".
20:40:12 <elliott> fizzie: Right. Isn't that the SSP-only one, though?
20:40:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's =<<.
20:40:27 <fizzie> I already forgot what the different bits did.
20:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/new_zodiac_sign_dates_dont_swi.html
20:41:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that article is written as if the Earth's axis has suddenly swivelled 30° overnight and astronomers have just noticed.
20:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And then the way that the astrologers try to justify it and they take it completely seriously.
20:42:29 <elliott> http://people.cs.uu.nl/andres/lhs2tex/Guide2-1.16.pdf Oh wow, this is complicated.
20:43:07 <elliott> hey j-invariant, have you used lhs2tex
20:44:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I find it slightly revolting when the advice for students writing lab reports is to use Word.
20:46:29 <fizzie> 87.5% of our students use LaTeX for their reports. (Sample size: N=8.)
20:46:29 <pikhq> SCEA has *also* filed a description of how to go *about* deriving the private keys.
20:46:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hey they added charcoal!
20:46:52 <Vorpal> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Charcoal
20:46:53 <pikhq> In essence, they themselves have made the entire thing a matter of public record.
20:47:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the astrological signs start their division at the spring equinox (the actual modern one). the fact that the divisions are named after >= 2000 year old constellation placements is just tradition. this particular detail isn't really one of the arguments against astrology.
20:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you might find this useful
20:47:31 <pikhq> Well. It's a fairly short description, but one that any knowledgable cryptographer would be able to work with.
20:47:51 <pikhq> "They didn't use random numbers in their ECDSA implementation." ← Sufficient!
20:48:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott, from version history: "Spiders can climb up walls."
20:48:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no they could jump high however
20:48:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no clue
20:49:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they did?
20:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly this is just a lull before Notch brings out the big difficulty hikes.
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20:59:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Charcoal also obviously means light sources (well, until lantern-time) for your sustainability project. (Though I'm not sure how you get a furnace, since even though cobble is sort-of renewable, I'm not sure how you'd do a cobble factory without a bucket to move lava.)
21:00:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I already have one from when lava was renewable from spawn
21:00:42 <Vorpal> and now it is an artifact which can be used
21:00:55 <fizzie> Well, but if you'd like to start from scratch somewhere elsewhere, then it's a problemo.
21:02:14 <fizzie> Maybe you could manage to build a cobble factory around an existing lava fall (unless you'd count that despoiling nature, too), but still a bucket seems essential for moving water around.
21:02:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seen natural cobble factories
21:02:40 -!- acetoline has joined.
21:04:20 <elliott> WHYWYHOIERYDRLTKJFGH,IOJKLD;SA'SC.F,GNMHLG;KJFD;SPOACLV,XCMVNBL,FGKTRPOEI45039ROKIO908I94586U859RTUYIR9TUJWHY
21:04:30 <Vorpal> elliott, did they climb up 1x1 pillars?
21:05:32 <fizzie> Oh, what a shame: the wiki "Crafting" page recipe images are actual screenshots (cropped any which way and sometimes stretched strangely and whatnot); I was somehow assuming they'd be some clever table-driven things, like Wikipedia's chessboards.
21:12:06 <fizzie> Right, I was sure that's how it worked.
21:12:16 <fizzie> The new "dye recipes" seem to be all more or less ugly screenshots.
21:15:16 <elliott> j-invariant: DO YOU WANT TO READ MY PROGRAM
21:15:30 <elliott> j-invariant: the worst program
21:16:10 <j-invariant> useful examples of mutually recursive functions?
21:16:35 <elliott> j-invariant: is there a shortage of those?
21:17:06 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a]
21:18:51 <elliott> j-invariant: even and odd, for instance!
21:19:15 <j-invariant> the only thing that cmoes to mind for me is EVAL/APPLY and some proofs, well they don't really count though
21:19:16 <elliott> j-invariant: if you only have induction-recursion on naturals, and you can memoise them, it's even the fastest way!
21:19:24 <elliott> eval/apply is pretty relevant
21:19:30 <elliott> all interpreter-esque things are structured that way
21:22:37 <elliott> j-invariant: here's my ugly program: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf
21:23:00 <oerjan> j-invariant: state machines work nicely as mutually recursive functions
21:24:02 <elliott> j-invariant: that's the sole reason this program exists :P
21:24:20 <elliott> j-invariant: complaints so far: <=, =>, && look ugly, they're too big... also, it italicises EVERY DAMN NAME, which is just really freakin' annoying
21:24:27 <elliott> it should, like, only use it for local variables
21:24:47 <elliott> j-invariant: re: is there something like pastebin for pdfs, as i've just found out, "yes" pretty much
21:24:55 <elliott> j-invariant: go to google sites, create a site, create a page, make it a file cabinet
21:25:14 <elliott> j-invariant: new version: http://sites.google.com/site/ehirdfiles/files/guessing-game.pdf
21:25:17 <elliott> getGuess is less ugly now :P
21:25:22 <elliott> j-invariant: oh, extra complaint about lhstotex: you can't do
21:26:24 <elliott> extra complaint: it doesn't put enough whitespace between two successive functions in a \begin{code} block
21:26:58 <elliott> j-invariant: i wish there was a variant of literate programming that utilised hypertext better
21:27:07 <elliott> j-invariant: like, i don't really care so much about having a coherent linear order
21:27:16 <elliott> j-invariant: but i want to interleave code and documentation fully, and also have links
21:27:25 <elliott> like, i could link to the whole chapter comprising, say, the parser of a language
21:27:35 <elliott> and individual functions would link to the place where they are discussed inside that chapter
21:27:52 <elliott> you could even do a whole OS as a single literate program, because there wouldn't be a strict linear order, it'd be hyperlinked
21:28:18 <j-invariant> elliott: yeah that would be a big improvement
21:28:50 <elliott> j-invariant: and then I could make @ one gigantic literate program with both x86-64 asm and @lang code :D
21:28:57 <elliott> (@ is my platonic ideal dream OS)
21:29:04 <elliott> (@lang is the language it's based on)
21:31:21 <elliott> i love ams euler, it goes so well with linux libertine
21:31:29 <pikhq> Most of the BS-X games will only run for a certain number of boots before locking themselves out forever and ever.
21:31:43 <pikhq> Making it *even more impossible* to actually emulate the damned thing.
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, including the poorly-batched square brackets?
21:32:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is there something wrong with Euler's []s?
21:32:20 <pikhq> Short a bunch of former Nintendo developers "misplacing" a bunch of ROMs on the Internet.
21:32:38 <pikhq> (which *has* happened for some of them.)
21:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> The closing one is noticeably narrower and longer than the opening one.
21:33:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you just mean "they're not flippings of each other", well, it's olde-style.
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21:33:45 <elliott> Who uses square brackets anyway.
21:36:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And whenever we have code snippets in the channel and they contain square brackets it also looks bad!
21:36:35 <elliott> j-invariant: PLAY MY AMAZING GUESSING GAME :d
21:37:30 <elliott> j-invariant: here's the .hs file :P http://sprunge.us/hRLa
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21:40:53 <elliott> while () { /* valid K&R C */ }
21:42:35 <elliott> j-invariant: do you have any opinions on serialisation of arbitrary GADT values
21:43:08 <elliott> j-invariant: but @ is based on serialisation!
21:43:18 <elliott> j-invariant: every value in the system is regularly and completely transparently serialised to disk
21:43:26 <elliott> j-invariant: "RAM" is now a fancy word for "big disk cache"
21:43:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes, you just keep saying how @ is awesome while i explain ti
21:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, LaTeX in @: cool as <something really cool>?
21:44:47 <elliott> Psht, I'm writing my _own_ format.
21:45:10 <elliott> LaTeX is based on the CRIPPLED MOUND OF PRINT LAYOUT.
21:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought LaTeX was one of the few things you liked a lot!
21:46:22 <Phantom_Hoover> How about: implement a nice, clean typesetting system, and implement LaTeX on top of it?
21:47:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Impossible; my system will be a semantic documentation system, not a typesetting system.
21:47:40 <elliott> The "LaTeX" part will be a program that takes some documentation and an optional object describing the nitty-gritty of formatting it, and producing an abstract typeset result.
21:47:46 <elliott> By program I mean function.
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21:51:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That'll be part of the semantic format. The syntax will resemble LaTeX
21:53:18 <fizzie> Secret typesetting conspirationism!
21:53:30 <elliott> fizzie: Actually, Minecraft SMP.
21:53:54 <fizzie> Oh, well, that's far less intrigueish.
21:54:08 <elliott> fizzie: And far more creepery.
21:56:49 <elliott> fizzie: Got a spare server lying around?!
21:58:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It can't BE LaTeX because LaTeX is implemented on top of TeX, a low-level, print-based, layout and formatting-centric, non-semantic, imperative language.
21:58:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I was offered an old server by a family member, but I'm not up for paying money to my parents for the titanic electrical cost.
21:59:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's unlikely your connection is fast enough anyway.
22:00:16 <elliott> fizzie: WIPE ZEM AND USE IT TO HOST MINECRAFT
22:04:50 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:19:01 <Sgeo> I managed to stay awake all day
22:19:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure it's quite performancey enough.
22:24:02 <elliott> fizzie: RAM is the main thing.
22:25:25 <elliott> fizzie: ALL YOUR OBJECTIONS WILL BE MET
22:26:41 <fizzie> It's something like a 1.5GHz Pentium M with maybe a gigabyte or two of memory. And a messy linux-vserver pseudo-virtualization thing.
22:27:36 <elliott> fizzie: But, but we are blowing up TNT.
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22:38:17 <Sgeo> Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you, tomorrow, you're only a day away
22:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, does the fact that you are singing love songs indicate events pertaining to Katie the AT?
22:39:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *Katie A.T. Female
22:39:24 <elliott> I like how it's pronounced "Katie-atie".
22:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I wouldn't be surprised if there is actually something called a KT-AT somewhere in the Star Wars EU.
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22:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so basically, your girlfriend is part of the Imperial war machine.
22:42:11 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure that "I love you" referrs to "tomorrow" in that song, not to a person
22:42:21 <Sgeo> Also, she's not my girlfriend
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22:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't matter, she's still part of the Imperial war machine.
22:47:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lere161DYc1qay7sto1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1295045258&Signature=cwhPuXXRZ/x2oU29OTpRyz2s044%3D
22:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Given a supply of wood, which is far easier to secure than a supply of coal.
22:49:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There's an inefficiency in the market, EXPLOIT IT
22:49:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vastly inflate your coal supplies!
22:49:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's basically a wonky exchange rate.
22:49:26 <fizzie> "Given a supply of wood" you can make an indefinite amount of coal from 0 coal, can't you?
22:50:02 <j-invariant> Logically here is a picture of mars http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA13755
22:50:25 <fizzie> It's charcoal, not real coal, isn't it? (With identical behaviour, but still.)
22:50:40 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: do I have to update minecraft? I have never done that
22:51:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I did say that "logically" was an abuse of notation.
22:51:26 <fizzie> It updates even when you don't want it to, until you take pains to prevent it.
22:52:45 <elliott> j-invariant: it means MEANINGNESS
22:52:53 <Sgeo> Ecologically-sound torches/
22:53:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait a second.
22:53:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 1 coal = infinite coal, modulo trees.
22:53:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Coal is now a renewable resource.
22:53:34 <elliott> Step 3: Turn trees and coal into more trees and more coal.
22:54:01 <elliott> <Notch> hurf durf i don't see why i should think when adding features
22:54:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: COMEDY: Notch claims the uselessness of gold is his OMG POLITICAL statement about gold's real-world usefulness. Coal is now renewable. Theory: Notch denies climate change.
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22:54:41 <fizzie> What do you need the 1 coal for?
22:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> "If you use 'octopodes' you had better be able to give this spiel at a moment's notice, and in a British accent."
22:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: people who say "octopi" are fair game for being punched in the face when they act like smug grammar Nazis.
22:59:20 <elliott> the same people who say virii
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23:01:33 <elliott> Vorpal is busy turning his entire chests of coal into more coal.
23:01:34 <olsner> yes, from now on every word ending in -us has -odes as the plural
23:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate Latin dictionaries which just assume you can work out the declensions off-the-cuff from the set of endings they give you.
23:02:16 <pikhq> The issue with "VIRII" as a plural for "VIRUS" is that in Latin, "VIRUS" is an uncountable noun.
23:02:24 <olsner> wikipedia says "The word is from the Latin virus referring to poison and other noxious substances, first used in English in 1392. The plural is viruses."
23:02:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=virus&ending=
23:03:01 <pikhq> So if you were to be *accurate* with your plurals, the plural of "virus" would be "virus".
23:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> At least with comparison to their entry for arma, which I *know* is an uncountable noun.
23:03:25 <pikhq> (source: Wiktionary. May be wrong.)
23:04:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ah. According to Wikipedia, *some* dictionaries treat it as a generic second-declension noun. However, this is a neologism.
23:04:55 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:05:59 <pikhq> If you do so, the plural is "VĪRA".
23:06:00 <olsner> btw, why all the talk of octopodes recently?
23:07:53 <pikhq> And yes, I'm damned well using all-caps for Latin.
23:08:27 <olsner> aha, so it went something like "* implemented octopi" in the change log and then an explosion of ZOMG WRONG PLURAL FORM?
23:08:41 <pikhq> I should have used it for "VĪRĪĪ" and "VĪRUS", as well.
23:09:02 <pikhq> Or just omitted it in general.
23:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> And if you're going to do it in caps, use the Roman letters.
23:09:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The first is wrong.
23:10:22 <pikhq> U for V in the middle of words is a Medievalism.
23:10:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it a bad sign that I think of Latin words with the Roman pronunciations?
23:11:29 <pikhq> It's technically right to do so with caps, as that practice *does* predate the presence of case in common usage...
23:11:38 <pikhq> *However*, it's not exactly classical.
23:11:38 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: you probably think of english words with english pronunciations...
23:12:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I was thinking of it as "U because it's in the middle of a word", not "U because it's the vowel".
23:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but does it make me unbearably pretentious to say "waynee weedee weekee" rather than "veiny veedy veechy"?
23:13:02 <pikhq> Depends on context.
23:13:37 <fizzie> olsner: It's just "* a new water dwelling mob" in the change log, the plural discussion started because the unofficial MC wiki had pages "Octopus", "Squid" and "Octopi" already created.
23:14:13 -!- Tritonio has joined.
23:14:28 <pikhq> Anyways. KONSISTENT ORÞOGRAΦY EYE DISPIES!
23:14:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ViciViciVeb
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23:18:27 <pikhq> elliott: UuikiUuikiUueb.
23:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv3Tt0fFJkU&feature=related
23:21:04 <j-invariant> so what should I be working on in the next four days
23:21:37 <elliott> The ONLY blame-based version control system!
23:21:49 <elliott> features such as: probably slower than even darcs 1
23:21:53 <elliott> j-invariant: it's not a joke :D
23:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, the death of all people with second toes longer than their big ones!
23:22:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:22:32 <elliott> it'll also probably use quite a bit of disk...
23:24:46 <pikhq> Every record of each revision contains the entire repository history up to that point.
23:25:06 <olsner> of course, every revision needs to know what it started with
23:25:09 <pikhq> Unary-encoded for convenience.
23:25:24 <elliott> pikhq: that lacks FEATURES
23:25:24 <olsner> and unary is just the easiest way to encode anything :P
23:26:17 <j-invariant> I'm reading Bertrand Russel "Introduction to the Problems of Philosophy"
23:26:18 <olsner> btw, cutting your hair makes everywhere colder - the effect can be significant if there was a lot of it
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23:27:07 <elliott> the problems of philosophy?
23:27:18 <j-invariant> elliott: stuff like "tables don't exist even though I can touch them"
23:27:52 <j-invariant> I really have not got the slightest clue what he's trying to get at
23:28:33 <elliott> is my gpu meant to be 73 C while idling?
23:28:48 <j-invariant> does anyoen actually care about philosophy
23:29:00 <pikhq> elliott: But I suggest attaching a griddle to it.
23:29:08 <pikhq> Fry you some bacon!
23:29:13 <elliott> note that the laptop feels cool
23:29:19 <elliott> ofc the thermal reading might just be bS
23:29:46 <pikhq> At 73°C, that shouldn't be cool to the touch.
23:29:53 <pikhq> That should be melting your leg-flesh.
23:30:04 <elliott> pikhq: i think the reading is taken from _inside_ the core
23:30:52 <j-invariant> maybe I should write a tutorial about something that nobody cares about
23:31:06 <pikhq> elliott: Melting your leg-flesh!
23:31:17 <elliott> j-invariant: make a tutorial about how to add one to an integer
23:31:32 <elliott> pikhq: apparently it's now 84 C
23:32:38 <j-invariant> Bertrand Russell said "The goal of scienci is to find uniformities of the universe"
23:33:04 <j-invariant> but Feynman said "I don't care if I get a simple equation for everything, I just want to understand nature. If there is no equation okay, that's what we find instead"
23:34:45 <elliott> pikhq: can i explain scapegoat to you, it's not fair just me and ais understanding it
23:34:54 <pikhq> elliott: YOUR LEG-FLESH IS IN PAIN, I'M SURE.
23:35:06 <elliott> j-invariant: i explained it with one line??
23:35:08 <olsner> elliott: not now, I'm going to bed an hour ago
23:35:10 <elliott> or have i mentioned it before
23:36:06 <olsner> oh, there's a movie about feynman and throat singing
23:36:44 <elliott> pikhq: ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED IN SCAPEGOAT
23:38:47 <elliott> j-invariant: did i actually explain tit to you??
23:39:23 <elliott> j-invariant: that was not an explanation :)
23:39:48 <elliott> j-invariant: so you don't want to know? :
23:41:14 <elliott> i'll bother copumpkin more then
23:41:33 <olsner> when did copumpkin end up in here anyway?
23:41:48 <elliott> when PH got lambdabot back
23:41:53 <elliott> all the DAMNED HASKELLERS invaded
23:42:12 <olsner> oh, we have a lambdabot now
23:42:15 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list
23:42:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://twitter.com/pigworker/status/25356492341252096 GET THERE NOW
23:43:49 <j-invariant> elliott: it just says he's teaching.. it's not an invitation :P
23:43:59 <elliott> j-invariant: but it COULD be!
23:44:10 <elliott> if all else fails, stand at the window with your face pressed to the glass, listening intently
23:45:05 <copumpkin> j-invariant: you can talk to him on IRC
23:45:50 <j-invariant> I'm sure he loves all the stupid questions we throw at him in #epigram
23:46:13 <elliott> copumpkin: you fool! if you talk to him on IRC, you'll interrupt his Epigram coding!
23:46:18 <elliott> why do you think 2 is taking so damn long??
23:47:02 <elliott> copumpkin: On the OTHER hand, asking me questions about scapegoat slows nothing down and everyone should do it.
23:47:45 <j-invariant> is there any neat way to diff two directories?
23:47:56 <olsner> there's a programm called diff :P
23:48:21 <elliott> OH MY GOD IT CAN DIFF DIRECTORIES
23:48:27 <elliott> THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE
23:49:07 <olsner> you can also get kdiff or another graphical diffing tool, but most of them suck way more than diff and less combined
23:49:20 <elliott> olsner: so since you're not sleeping i must tell you about scapegoat
23:49:29 <olsner> (and colordiff will make that suck even less)
23:49:53 <olsner> oh, you'll just drive me away so I'm forced to sleep
23:50:15 <j-invariant> this update doesn't fix the bug I mentioned
23:50:24 <elliott> j-invariant: are you sure they actually saw the post about it
23:50:29 <elliott> j-invariant: you should have stored your uagda changes in scapegoa
23:50:35 <Sgeo> elliott, what do you think of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality?
23:50:38 <olsner> elliott: it sounds interesting, which is what makes it so dangerous
23:51:00 <elliott> Sgeo: it's amusing, i haven't read it for ages
23:51:06 <olsner> (hmm, shaving... I can't imagine some people actually do that every single day)
23:51:12 <elliott> j-invariant: that isn't how scapegoat works dammit
23:51:18 * Sgeo loves it so far
23:51:34 <j-invariant> elliott: I have this beautiful vision of scapegoat in ym head, don't ruin it!
23:51:52 <elliott> j-invariant: the reality is even better, because it's FRACTAL!! (not really but)
23:51:57 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: the problem is that it never updates!
23:52:19 <elliott> j-invariant: basically, everything is a Change, capital C
23:52:24 <elliott> maybe i can get olsner to listen if i try hard enough
23:52:29 <elliott> and copumpkin, i don't really wanna do this three times
23:52:44 <j-invariant> -- let's use parametricity in a useful way: prove that any
23:52:44 <j-invariant> -- function of type (X : *) -> X -> X is the identity.
23:53:04 <olsner> save the log, then paste it one line at a time at the right interval to make it seem like you're doing it in person all over
23:53:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: is not a function.
23:53:32 <elliott> argh what's the theroems for free command
23:53:35 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:53:42 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:53:48 <elliott> Mathnerd314: it's not a "termination checker"
23:53:53 <elliott> it's just a sub-TC language
23:53:58 <elliott> not a TC language + some checker
23:54:01 <elliott> that's a stupid way to think about it
23:54:13 <elliott> also, good luck doing proofs with _|_
23:54:19 <j-invariant> it's not strongly normalizing /because/ it's sub-TC
23:54:51 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
23:54:59 <elliott> j-invariant: convince olsner to stay up long enough to listen and i WILL
23:55:25 <elliott> j-invariant: i can only do one of those two things :D
23:55:37 <olsner> elliott: hmm, maybe, how long will this take? :)
23:55:48 <elliott> olsner: like 15 minutes max?
23:56:08 <olsner> cool, that's about as long as is left of this half-played episode I just found
23:56:25 <elliott> olsner: do I have to duke it out to the death with that episode?
23:56:49 <olsner> (I find paused mplayer windows all over, then I have to watch them to the end after unpausing)
23:57:02 <copumpkin> elliott: why is that a bad free theorem?
23:57:18 <olsner> elliott: no, I expect you to coexist peacefully
23:57:29 <elliott> olsner: i refuse to talk to anyone without FULL ATTENTION! scapegoat is IMPORTANT1
23:57:34 <elliott> copumpkin: it could give "f = id" :P
23:58:07 <elliott> copumpkin: you want to hear about scapegoat, I'm sure
23:58:21 <elliott> copumpkin: ALL THE MORE REASON
23:58:36 <elliott> i have this conception that ou're in the uk
23:59:29 <j-invariant> elliott: the ! thing is like "gimme parametricity"
23:59:47 <elliott> copumpkin: oh ... so you're lame
00:00:16 <copumpkin> hey, I'm from england originally :P
00:00:25 <j-invariant> not sure what f! A< (Eq A< x<) x< (\_ p -> p) does
00:00:28 <elliott> giving them the secrets of our bad teeth
00:00:35 <j-invariant> looking at the type of f! doesn't really help
00:02:19 <elliott> olsner: have you seen the light yet
00:02:36 <elliott> he's silent because he's regretful
00:02:37 <olsner> no, it's still winter here
00:02:48 <elliott> olsner: have you seen the scapeglight
00:03:08 <olsner> that's not a word I know, so it's hard for me to determine that
00:03:09 <copumpkin> elliott: you're a bad englishman by american standards, anyway
00:03:19 <elliott> olsner: the light of scapegoat
00:03:31 <olsner> copumpkin: I bet he eats crumpets and drinks tea, isn't that enough?
00:03:45 <copumpkin> elliott: you're not supposed to be enthusiastic and noisy. You're supposed to be posh and nonchalant
00:03:57 <copumpkin> I also like marmite and potato waffles
00:04:00 <elliott> copumpkin: i totally am, when i don't talk about scapegoat
00:04:05 <elliott> which is, incidentally, the best thing?
00:04:16 <elliott> i'm aiming to be as annoying as possible until everyone agrees that talking about scapegoat would be preferable
00:04:18 <copumpkin> (that's a rhetorical quesiton, I don't want to know)
00:04:21 <elliott> copumpkin: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER
00:04:43 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah but i'm trying to get as many people involved as possible first so we can have a big scapegoat party
00:04:53 <elliott> augur: ask me about scapegoat
00:05:03 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm on the verge of giving up and just telling you
00:06:08 <elliott> j-invariant: ok fine i will
00:06:15 <elliott> j-invariant: do you know how git and darcs work
00:06:20 <elliott> augur: THE BEST VERSION CONTROL SYSTEM EVER
00:06:24 <olsner> now if you'd just been talking about scapegoat instead of talking about talking about scapegoat...
00:06:30 <elliott> invented by ais, refined (BRILLIANTLY) by me!!!!124823954365706432-2==
00:06:36 <elliott> what i'm saying is i'm a genius? anyway ask me about it
00:06:47 <elliott> i don't want to monologue like oklopol
00:07:02 <Mathnerd314> elliott: how does scapegoat store its data?
00:07:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that's not the interesting part
00:07:51 <augur> yeah but thats not new, elliott
00:07:55 <augur> you already </3 me
00:09:16 <elliott> Mathnerd314: all the rest!
00:09:59 <Mathnerd314> elliott: please enumerate the components of "all the rest"
00:10:24 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ALL of the rest!
00:11:38 <Mathnerd314> elliott: for each individual element of "the rest", please print a textual description of it
00:11:45 <elliott> Mathnerd314: set is not countable
00:13:15 <olsner> elliott: btw time's up
00:13:42 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i don't accept extensional choice :)
00:15:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: then we live in different universes and anything you say will be uninteresting
00:16:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so you think everything, say, intuitionists say is inherently uninteresting?
00:17:00 <j-invariant> elliott: study normalization proofs with me
00:17:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: well, uninteresting past the point where you accept other axoms.
00:18:01 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: you have "math" in your name, you are into this stuff
00:18:02 <elliott> Mathnerd314: what does that mean?
00:18:04 <elliott> j-invariant: sounds painful
00:18:07 <elliott> j-invariant: and no he isn't
00:19:09 <Mathnerd314> j-invariant: my nick was carefully constructed for maximum confusion
00:20:30 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: at least you chopped it off whre the next digit is <= 5
00:20:47 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: I have when people write stuff like 3.141
00:22:44 <Mathnerd314> elliott: pi is off by a factor of two from the rest of math.
00:22:58 <elliott> i too have read "pi is wrong" and the tau manifesto.
00:23:22 <elliott> perfectly agreeable articles that serve the secondary purpose of giving people who don't really know any math something to have opinions about
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00:24:20 <elliott> i'm really sad that my map structure doesn't work
00:24:22 <elliott> although maybe i can augment it
00:24:34 <elliott> hahahaha wait, it does work, sorta... if you can enumerate the values of any type
00:24:51 -!- polymorf has left (?).
00:25:05 <lambdabot> Data.Ix range :: Ix a => (a, a) -> [a]
00:25:05 <lambdabot> System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a]
00:25:22 <elliott> :t concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b])
00:25:37 <pikhq> SCEA's lawyers have apparently shown up in #ps3dev on EFnet.
00:25:38 <Sgeo> My dad's yelling at me to buy shoes
00:25:42 <lambdabot> forall a b. [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:25:46 <Sgeo> The day before I go to the mall with someone
00:25:53 <elliott> @pl (\xs ys -> concatMap (\(a,b) -> [a,b]) (zip xs ys))
00:25:54 <lambdabot> ((uncurry ((. return) . (:)) =<<) .) . zip
00:26:01 <pikhq> Not saying anything. Just a guy with the right host mask.
00:26:05 <lambdabot> Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:05 <lambdabot> Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
00:26:06 <j-invariant> Sgeo: tell him not to yell or just ignore him
00:26:18 <Sgeo> j-invariant, oh, oops. He's not literally yelling.
00:26:29 <pikhq> elliott: http://pastie.org/1458314 Here's logs.
00:26:55 <lambdabot> [-1,-2,-3,-4,-5,-6,-7,-8,-9,-10,-11,-12,-13,-14,-15,-16,-17,-18,-19,-20,-21...
00:27:03 <lambdabot> [-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,...
00:27:48 <pikhq> Almost certainly not *the* RMS.
00:28:24 <elliott> j-invariant: quick, gimme some haskell to enumerate all strings
00:28:28 <elliott> i can just enumerate chars
00:31:17 <elliott> instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where
00:31:17 <elliott> elems = concatMap ofLength [0..]
00:31:17 <elliott> concatMap (\xs -> concatMap (\x -> xs++[x]) elems) (ofLength (n-1))
00:31:20 <elliott> j-invariant: was it less ugly than that?
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00:32:24 <elliott> hmm grepping >>= on the logs actually gives nothing, how strange
00:32:41 <elliott> definitely not before the 8th unless i'm missing something, wasn't it in haskell?
00:33:22 <lambdabot> ["f","o","b","a","r","ff","fo","fb","fa","fr","of","oo","ob","oa","or","bf"...
00:34:58 <elliott> class Elems a where elems :: [a]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance Elems Bool where elems = [False, True]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance Elems Integer where elems = interleave [0..] [-1,-2..]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance (Bounded a) => Elems a where elems = [minBound..maxBound]
00:34:58 <elliott> instance (Elems a) => Elems [a] where elems = flip replicateM elems =<< [0..]
00:35:34 <elliott> j-invariant: guess how this helps me implement toList
00:35:51 <lambdabot> forall b a. b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
00:35:56 <elliott> j-invariant: no, this is in a toy :D
00:36:30 <elliott> toList :: (Elems k) => PM k v -> [(k,v)]
00:36:31 <elliott> toList m = concatMap (\k -> maybe [] (k,) (m k)) elems
00:36:45 <elliott> type PM k v = k -> Maybe v
00:36:52 <cheater-> elliott: have you got multitouch to work?
00:37:28 <elliott> cheater-: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir3-2/Meerkat
00:37:34 <elliott> j-invariant: but it's GOOD ENOUGH :D
00:37:43 <elliott> j-invariant: well hey, got a better idea?
00:37:48 <elliott> j-invariant: I could just keep the [(k,v)] along with it
00:37:52 <elliott> but then the function would just be an optimistaion
00:38:13 <j-invariant> elliott: it's hnot possible unless you do something ugly like carry around an upper bound
00:38:32 <elliott> j-invariant: inserting would be hilariously slow :D
00:38:32 <j-invariant> elliott: that's how polynomials are doen :(
00:38:38 <elliott> unless i had a fast goedelNumber thing
00:39:06 <elliott> undecidable instances FUCK YEAHHHHHHH
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00:40:31 <elliott> *Main> toList Main.empty :: [(Bool,Integer)]
00:40:44 * elliott does "toList Main.empty :: [(Int,Integer)]"
00:40:46 <elliott> should terminate eventually
00:41:29 <elliott> *Main> toList (insert 3 42 Main.empty) :: [(Int,Integer)]
00:41:35 <elliott> j-invariant: is concatMap not lazy or something?
00:41:51 <elliott> j-invariant: "elems :: [Int]" --> all negatives first
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00:43:00 <cheater00> i'll have to have ais teach me all of haskell then..
00:43:20 <cheater00> he'll be preoccupied and won't be able to write any more papers that you can illegally download..
00:43:52 <elliott> cheater00: i don't think ais will.
00:44:15 <elliott> j-invariant: can i see how you did the upper bound thing?
00:44:50 <elliott> j-invariant: hey i just realised, you can look up any element certain types of infinite maps in finite time with my impl :D
00:45:50 <j-invariant> elliott: I never actually wrote it but it would be type PM k v = (k,k -> Maybe v) -- with the condition that for k' > k, f k' = Nothing
00:46:11 <elliott> j-invariant: hmm does String have Ord? wait of course
00:46:22 <elliott> j-invariant: you still have to enumerate every string below that one though :-P
00:46:39 <elliott> j-invariant: the idea is that with a perfect lazy specialiser, this should be a very fast implementation
00:46:55 <elliott> j-invariant: because (f key) for common key will automatically get specialised
00:47:02 <elliott> which will involve the impl inserting key into a hash table for f
00:47:11 <elliott> mapping it to a constant value
00:47:15 <elliott> i.e. it turns into a hash table lookup
00:48:40 <elliott> j-invariant: but enumerating is a problem :/
00:49:18 <elliott> http://polymathematics.typepad.com/polymath/2006/06/no_im_sorry_it_.html?cid=18295323#comment-6a00d8341bfda053ef00d83492d19d53ef troll :D
00:49:31 <elliott> wtf that link doesn't work
00:50:23 <j-invariant> I don't understand why people discuss that 0.999.. thing so much
00:50:34 <elliott> Through proofs, yes, you have "proven" that .9 repeating equals 1 and also through certain definitions.
00:50:35 <elliott> But in the realm of logic and another definition you are wrong. .9 repeating is not an integer by the definition of an integer, and 1 most certainly is an integer. Mathematically, algebraicly...whatever, they have the same value, but that doesn't mean they are the same number.
00:50:35 <elliott> I'm getting more out of "hard" mathematics and more into the paradoxical realm. Have you ever heard of Zeno's paradoxes? I think that's the most relevant counter-argument to this topic. Your "infinity" argument works against you in this respect. While you can never come up with a value that you can represent mathematically on paper to add to .999... to equal one or to come up with an average of the two
00:50:36 <elliott> , that doesn't mean that it doesn't conceptually exist. "Infinity" is just as intangible as whatever that missing value is.
00:50:38 <j-invariant> but every time it comes up people discuss it for hours
00:51:05 <elliott> more like idiots are idiots and other people yell at them
00:53:24 <elliott> what, jsmath is lagging my browser
00:56:54 <elliott> j-invariant: so how goes the dependent cas :P
00:58:02 <elliott> j-invariant: but i thought that's what you were doing :(
00:59:23 <elliott> j-invariant: or did you give up?
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01:16:26 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41047777
01:16:34 <elliott> that was a random link from reddit
01:16:38 <elliott> Gregor: http://xkcdinosaur.blogspot.com/
01:16:42 <elliott> Gregor: You have been one-upped.
01:24:06 <pikhq> Dear EVERY FUCKING FLASH VIDEO PLAYER EVER: stop requiring buffers of INCREASINGLY LARGE SIZE.
01:26:04 <pikhq> In fact: every buffering scheme for video from the Internet ever: YOU SUCK.
01:26:41 <pikhq> Buffer enough that, if the current average download speed continues, you will get to the end of the video without ever once stopping.
01:28:39 <Sgeo> Sometimes, YouTube will claim an amount is buffered, and playback is before that point, yet it still stops
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01:33:37 <pikhq> Also, every fucking flash video player ever: HAND ME A URL TO THE ACTUAL VIDEO FILE. FLASH SUCKS.
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01:39:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Handing you a URL to the video file would be an extremely poor way to prevent you from learning the URL to the video file.
01:41:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Why yes, yes it would.
01:42:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Of course, as preventing me from learning the URL to the video file is, I do believe, a "dick move", that is irrelevant.
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02:26:07 <pikhq> quintopia: ... So?
02:26:15 <pikhq> quintopia: .flv is just a video container format.
02:26:26 <pikhq> mplayer demuxes it just fine.
02:43:33 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of once figuring out URL for datastream for flash video and then just downloading it...
02:45:08 <Ilari> (It was a video about IPv4 depletion).
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03:43:11 <oklopol> "<j-invariant> why do people care at all? It's so lame" <<< maybe it's something where people think they are allowed to have an opinion in mathematics, and people love having opinions
03:43:53 <copumpkin> people never seem to debate whether 0.3 recurring is 1/3
03:44:45 <oklopol> well that's equivalent, people always prove an equivalence proof with 0.999... vs 1 first, as a lemma
03:46:49 <oklopol> it's funny because what i see as the difference between S^Z and R is really that 0.9999.... is *defined* to be 1, by taking a certain equivalence relation between elements of S^Z
03:47:18 <oklopol> of course, R has operations and shit, but that's just because after this quotienting, those start making sense
03:48:47 <oklopol> well, of course you can always define R that way, i guess i can't exactly put into words what exactly is funny here
03:55:31 <variable> I'm somewhat confused about the functional nature of Haskell when it comes to IO. I have an entire program written in Haskell. But the moment I want to stop inputting the numbers directly in the program - and use command line arguments I need put everything in a do section and use IOStrings - right?
03:56:17 <copumpkin> you typically keep your "business logic" out of IO
03:56:28 <quintopia> haskell kind of stops being functional when it comes to IO... :P
03:57:42 <variable> copumpkin, yes - but lets say I had some business logic "add these two numbers to together and return the result" I can't pass that function any numbers I got from input
03:58:18 <copumpkin> say you have add :: Int -> Int -> Int
03:58:37 <pikhq> So. That person-from-the-SCEA-lawfirm who signed onto the #ps3dev room?
03:58:38 <copumpkin> do x <- readLn; y <- readLn; print (add x y)
03:58:49 <pikhq> *He used his real name*.
03:59:19 <pikhq> "kdutine" was his nick; "Kip Dutine" is his name.
04:00:06 <variable> pikhq, you sure it wasn't a parody ?
04:00:08 <pikhq> copumpkin: Shame that it's like 4 or 5 intelligent people and hundreds of complete morons going "LAWL PIRACY".
04:00:17 <pikhq> variable: The host mask was from the actual lawfirm.
04:00:39 <variable> pikhq, I call Poe! <----- joke
04:01:05 <variable> WHAT THE HELL python library for wikipedia
04:01:33 <pikhq> But seriously... Those people who want a backup manager working on 3.55? Get off your ass and write it yourself if you care that much. If you can't be bothered, well, shaddup about it!
04:03:01 <pikhq> Though I *would* like to see a region-free PS1 and PS2 loader one of these days... I'm not exactly pestering the people who are trying to figure out how shit works about it!
04:05:58 <oklopol> i read that as religion-free PS1 and PS2 loader
04:09:36 <copumpkin> all the cool kids are getting sued, so should you!
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07:50:53 <coppro> wow, ice's expansion pressure is huge
07:51:44 <rodgort> shaswot: the channel knows, I do not
07:52:48 <fizzie> What is it the channel knows? (Why does that sound like a silly riddle?)
07:55:43 <oerjan> the channel knows all, sees all
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08:04:31 <coppro> pikhq: water has ridiculous expansion pressure when it freezes
08:04:58 <coppro> do you know how much pressure is required to melt water at 251 K?
08:05:26 <coppro> we should harness this somehow
08:06:37 <coppro> 1 atm is atmospheric pressure
08:06:41 <oklopol> 20000 meters of water if i recall correctly?
08:07:06 <oklopol> that water thing tells me something
08:08:41 <oklopol> okay, i recalled 10 meters of water is one atmosphere
08:09:17 <coppro> actually, it may be less
08:09:25 <coppro> due to the increasing force of gravity at depths
08:09:30 <coppro> simple linear calculations won't account for that
08:09:40 <coppro> (also the slight compressibility of water)
08:09:52 <oklopol> erm 20km matters for that?
08:09:59 <coppro> 20km is roughly correct though
08:10:54 <oklopol> well anyway i don't know any physics, was just wondering if 2040 was actually a lot in some sense
08:11:26 <oklopol> and that sure sounds like a lot
08:11:52 <oklopol> hmm, actually based on the movies i've seen about space stuff, the atmosphere basically keeps us together
08:11:58 <oklopol> so i guess it's not that little
08:12:05 <coppro> 20km affects acceleration due to gravity by somewhere in the vicinity of 1%
08:12:25 <coppro> which isn't much, but if you're doing the calculus, it matters
08:12:40 <coppro> but I'm approximating anyways
08:12:45 <coppro> (this is assumed from sea level)
08:13:12 <coppro> or, err, actually average radius
08:13:19 <fizzie> oklopol: "Normal high pressure gas cylinders or bottles will hold from 200 to 400 atmosphere (unit)s." (According to the omniscipedia.)
08:13:47 <Ilari> APNIC pool: 39 212 032
08:13:58 <coppro> that's a depressing number
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08:14:33 <fizzie> So, when you're thirsty and it's -22 degrees Celsius out there, you should try something else than squeezing a block of ice to get some water to drink?
08:16:02 <fizzie> How low was it supposed to go, anyway?
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08:18:31 <Ilari> The esimated number at next allocation (triggering X-day): 32M-37M.
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08:21:56 <Ilari> Seemingly someone in the US allocated a /10...
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08:23:48 <Ilari> Now that kind of allocation from APNIC could be pretty much instant X-day...
08:28:28 <Ilari> So about 2M-7M left...
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10:12:21 <Vorpal> * quintopia steals all of vorpal's entropy <-- nasty
10:12:48 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITHOUT APPLYING WORK
10:15:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, a friend gave me some for the purpose of this.
10:16:30 <Vorpal> time to fetch clog logs again. Should add a daily cron entry calling the downloading script
10:16:53 <Vorpal> currently it happens rather erratically
10:22:03 <oklopol> the japanese class is sneaky, i just realized all the frequent messages from the teacher are now in japanese, and i have no idea when that happened
10:23:09 <Vorpal> oklopol, then I guess that means you are getting the hang of the language
10:23:25 <oklopol> (except for a couple of translations in some messages, and complete translations in certain cases, maybe this was the first one without those)
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12:43:28 <Sgeo> I'm not sure that that's known
12:43:34 <Sgeo> It's certainly never been seen
12:43:57 <Sgeo> Should be determinable based on the source
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12:53:51 <j-invariant> Sgeo: I don't know if I went all the way around or just in a circle
12:54:14 <Sgeo> How many RL years were you travelling for?
12:55:10 <Sgeo> Oh, right, MC's closed-sourceish
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12:59:54 <fizzie> On some servers you can use the /spawn command to do that; in single-player, I'm not so sure.
13:01:27 <fizzie> You could in creative.
13:01:39 <fizzie> You definitely can by editing the save file, but that's kludgy.
13:02:02 <fizzie> Not /spawn, /setspawn or something.
13:04:39 <fizzie> According to Wikipedia, "the largest possible world size to date reaching the equivalent of nearly eight times the surface area of the Earth before running into technical limitations", but the citation attached refers to a pretty old blog post.
13:06:31 <fizzie> Protocol-wise sometimes it sends absolute position numbers given as signed 32-bit ints that indicate 1/32ths of a block; that would allow for a 2^27 x 2^27 block square.
13:08:08 <j-invariant> I thought it would juts be quite a small world
13:08:18 <fizzie> That would be quite a lot more than "eight times the surface area of the Earth", so perhaps there are other limitations.
13:08:59 <fizzie> Wikipedia says Earth has a surface area of 510,072,000 km^2; a 2^27 metre square has about 35 times that.
13:10:30 <fizzie> On our server the furthest place anyone's traveled has been about 140 kilometres away from the spawn, and that was enough to basically crash it, so I'm not sure how feasible an Earth-sized world is with the current architecture.
13:10:39 <fizzie> It will at least take a lot of disk space.
13:10:46 <oklopol> i should totally break that record manually
13:10:54 <j-invariant> the further you walk the more world it generates?
13:11:08 <oklopol> yeah, but doesn't it drop the stuff you didn't change?
13:11:16 <oklopol> answer to j, question to f
13:11:49 <fizzie> No, it just unloads those blocks on disk.
13:12:05 <fizzie> I don't think it ever shrinks the world.
13:12:38 <fizzie> I'm not entirely certain about that, though.
13:13:20 <fizzie> ineiros' file listings would probably answer that; if there's an unbroken path of chunks to the furthest point, then it probably doesn't.
13:13:44 <oklopol> can you hack your way in and check?
13:14:37 <fizzie> I could maybe just ask.
13:15:07 <oklopol> honestly didn't occur to me
13:16:39 <oklopol> next on the list was marrying him an infinite amount of times, and always getting half those files in the divorce
13:17:32 <fizzie> oklopol: Constantly walking into one direction for 8 hours should (if I calculated right) give you the coveted "been furthest away" award (well, assuming you wouldn't have to go around mountains or anything). As well as create about ten thousand files (around a hundred megabytes, maybe) on his disk.
13:18:04 <oklopol> 8 hours isn't exactly a long walk
13:18:17 <fizzie> Based on someone's forum-post saying walking speed is "about 5 blocks/second".
13:18:45 <oklopol> well, 80 hours isn't a long walk, as a project
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13:19:22 <fizzie> Yes, that'd be about 144 kilometres.
13:19:28 <oklopol> well. maybe it's slightly over medium, since it's not *that* much fun without far
13:19:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure the "5 blocks/s" is in fact accurate.
13:19:44 <oklopol> that's weird, since you can't walk that much in 8 hours
13:19:55 <fizzie> That's 18 km/h, it sounds a bit fast for a walk.
13:20:09 <oklopol> oh right 5 blocks a second is not 5km/h
13:21:03 <fizzie> Minecart max speed is 8 blocks/s, according to Minepedia, but I'm not sure how to compare. It does feel a lot faster than walking.
13:21:08 <fizzie> I saw a travel speed table somewhere.
13:21:47 <fizzie> 4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation
13:21:52 <oklopol> well note that i would probably not do it by running straight ahead, but strolling away, looking at the world
13:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite possibly the funniest thing Fox News has ever done.
13:22:33 <fizzie> Well, assuming 2 blocks/sec of actual progress, that'd be 20 hours.
13:24:35 <oklopol> "and that simple contact could be all that pedophile needs to fulfill his fantasies for the day"
13:25:35 <oklopol> erm, currently i'm just making a base, but i feel kinda nomadish after that short talk
13:25:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k).
13:26:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's not that much: 8 hours if you could proceed with maximum walking speed to one direction; 20 hours might be realistic, even.
13:26:52 <fizzie> j-invariant: You can't die on that server.
13:27:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you'd be a FILTHY CHEATER.
13:27:17 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: that wouldn't really change anything
13:27:42 <oklopol> going farthest is the inspiration, not an actual goal
13:28:03 <fizzie> oklopol: You could try walking 100 km to bring visibility for some charity, I hear that's very popular.
13:28:23 <oklopol> walking 100km irl isn't much of a project either
13:28:38 <oklopol> we did this rather spontaneous 80km walk one weekend
13:28:43 <fizzie> Yes, but on-server there'd be a large audience.
13:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> You can then say to everyone you walked the distance through the world!
13:30:18 <fizzie> That's not quite the whole world.
13:30:50 <fizzie> It's not that either, I don't think.
13:31:16 <fizzie> Because some protocol messages use absolute-integer coordinates that denote 1/32ths of a block; that'd be 2^27 metres.
13:31:31 <oklopol> also i might not have that much time for mc now since i just realized courses + other stuff actually take quite a lot of time, so dunno
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13:31:52 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Ohhh, right.
13:32:05 <oklopol> there is no "distance through the world" in mc
13:32:23 <oklopol> that would be nicer than the current fixed height tho
13:32:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: IRL the Earth's circumference is 40 Mm; 40k kilometres.
13:34:08 <fizzie> oklopol: It's the distance from the center to the surface, approximately.
13:34:12 <oklopol> no that was a pun that made no sense
13:34:42 <oklopol> anyway earth's is a mean radius
13:34:58 <fizzie> I completely failed to catch that.
13:35:40 <oklopol> well it doesn't have two parsings
13:35:50 <oklopol> i couldn't think of one that does
13:35:52 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <oklopol> no that was a pun that made no sense
13:36:52 <oklopol> but with that mean-ing of mean, everything technically works
13:37:00 <oklopol> erm, everything with mean radius that is
13:37:24 <fizzie> Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS).
13:37:25 <HackEgo> 267) <oklopol> no that was a pun that made no sense
13:38:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros, hey, can we have an unmodified SMP server while we wait for hMod to update?
13:38:49 * Sgeo is in a weird mood today
13:39:06 <totem> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ
13:39:25 <fizzie> Then again, hMod shouldn't take too long: the github repo has a "NON WORKING beta 1.2 release, DEVELOPERS ONLY" already.
13:39:34 <fizzie> Oh, whoops, I misread that as "NOW WORKING".
13:40:01 <fizzie> Oh well, it's just one more line.
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14:05:44 * cheater00 puts oklopol in a simulation of conway's game of DEATH!!#$!$#
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14:18:46 <Sgeo> Is it really worth it to make cake?
14:20:50 <fizzie> It's a principle thing, I think: it's cake, after all.
14:20:59 <fizzie> All new recipes should be crafted at least once.
14:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It regenerates a total of 9 hearts and you can stagger it.
14:21:42 <fizzie> "Minecraft Beta 1.2_01 (less bugs, more framerates)"
14:21:46 <fizzie> Well, that didn't take long.
14:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So have a single cake in your shelter, and use it when you get hurt.
14:22:28 <fizzie> "* Added a temporary fix to get rid of chunk visibility errors
14:22:28 <fizzie> The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list.
14:22:28 <fizzie> So until we fix it proper, you might get invisible chunks, but they will fix themselves after a second or two, usually way before you even get close to them."
14:22:38 <fizzie> How very shotgun-codingy.
14:23:12 <Sgeo> O, you can't put cake in the hand to use it?
14:24:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Because you can use it 6 times, which doesn't work with MC's eating system.
14:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have the smegging Serenity theme stuck in my head...
14:25:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't even watched Firefly! It's just latched onto my brain and it won't let go!
14:25:03 <Sgeo> How is block resistence n/a?
14:25:12 <Sgeo> It's a block, isn't it?
14:27:28 <Sgeo> Now that charcoal exists, is there a point to regular coal?
14:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, you know that block resistance measures the damage from TNT?
14:27:52 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, vaguely
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14:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yes, i.e. that it's a lot less resource-intensive to mine coal than to smelt lots of wood.
14:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, turns out that you can make bonemeal into any other dye.
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14:31:49 <Sgeo> "Bone meal is used to make white wool by crafting one Wool block with bone meal above it."
14:33:29 <fizzie> "Sheep can also have their wool dyed by directly using dye (right clicking) on them. When a dyed Sheep is attacked it will drop coloured wool in the same way normal sheep drop their wool. This can be useful because you can obtain multiple coloured wool blocks from a single Sheep, instead of getting just one block from the crafting process."
14:33:56 <fizzie> I'm feel like painting all on-server sheep pink.
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14:37:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the server updated?
14:37:55 <fizzie> Just for future reference.
14:40:30 <j-invariant> like if you break the block without you just get nothing?
14:42:08 <fizzie> But a wooden pick is good enough.
14:43:05 <j-invariant> fizzie: I ust wasted two blocks of coal ;_;
14:43:43 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: I tried making a farm but if you run too far away the animals disappear
14:43:49 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: like even if they are completely trapped
14:44:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Nice sound.
14:45:38 <j-invariant> wow tta's like an arrow cannon why does that work?
14:46:50 <fizzie> Dispenser + clock circuit, isn't that quite simple.
14:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw&feature=player_embedded
14:48:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes?
14:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, the trick is getting a very high-speed oscillator.
14:48:38 <j-invariant> or is that some kind of unintended consequence
14:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Dispensers eject their contents when they receive a redstone charge.
14:49:24 <fizzie> I can't say I understand redstone oscillators either, but they're well-known things, you can find designs in the web.
14:50:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The moment when that video actually scrolls up was very impressive.
14:51:53 <fizzie> I would assume some sort of a trick has been used to fill all those guns with eggs, though.
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15:04:18 * Sgeo is leaving soon
15:04:33 <Sgeo> To wait 5 hours to see someone for 1.5 hours :/
15:06:10 <Sgeo> By waiting, I mean most of the time will be commutting
15:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (I can't think of a suitable Katie A.T. comment here. Submissions are welcomed.)
15:07:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:08:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so how many bugs did the new version add?
15:08:54 <fizzie> Something about commuting and the AT-AT walker, maybe.
15:09:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well there is a _01 version
15:10:47 <Vorpal> oh and they added the bug fixes from optimine it seems
15:11:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The top speed of AT-AT is 60 km/h, maybe you could work that in too somehow.
15:11:13 -!- elliott has joined.
15:11:51 <Vorpal> oh and gold tools got a boost, but not when it comes to durability
15:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I have decided that as soon as the server updates Mt. Hoover must get a repeating double-barrel arrow machine gun.
15:12:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I agree, but only if we also get creepers.
15:13:09 <Vorpal> I hope we don't get creepers
15:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps we could do that SMP airbase thing while we wait for hMod to update.
15:13:28 <elliott> 00:12:51 <fizzie> "While the copyright of the play Peter Pan, or the Boy Who Wouldn't Grow Up by J. M. Barrie has expired in the United Kingdom, it was granted a special exception under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (Schedule 6)[33] that requires royalties to be paid for performances within the UK, so long as Great Ormond Street Hospital (to whom Barrie gave the rights) continues to exist."
15:13:47 <elliott> Vorpal: You have diamond armour and probably more than one diamond sword.
15:13:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I do not have diamond armour
15:14:00 <elliott> As well as an almost-inaccessible-for-mobs, completely-protected castle.
15:14:02 <elliott> You have literally nothing to fear.
15:14:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, you can trivially get it.
15:14:16 <elliott> Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely.
15:14:17 <Gregor> elliott: Surely that's not recognized in any other country?
15:14:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but we'll obviously set creepers off everywhere on top of Mt. Vorpal.
15:14:52 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, it's only royalties for performances in the UK, not "proper" copyright-as-in-actually-control-the-rights thing. But still.
15:14:55 <elliott> Gregor: Still, ugh -- can you imagine trying to overturn that? "But what about the children!" (Great Ormond Street is a children's hospital.)
15:15:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I read that as that they are turned off
15:15:22 <Gregor> elliott: WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!
15:15:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I think children should be banned just so people can't pull that crap.
15:15:49 <Gregor> elliott: So what if a different children's hospital wants to put on a performance of it :P
15:16:06 <elliott> Gregor: THEY HAVE TO TURN OFF LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS TO RAISE MONEY TO GIVE TO THE EVIL, CORPORATE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL.
15:16:15 <elliott> WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?!?!?!?!
15:16:38 <Gregor> Eh, they'll live so long as their medicinal colon pipes are in place.
15:17:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> Assuming you nabbed diamond from spawn when you could which I find likely. <-- I wish I had...
15:17:17 <elliott> Not if some paedophile seizes them, Gregor.
15:17:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Just ask server for diamond, the chest not working is a mere bug.
15:17:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm sure you'd get it.
15:17:44 <Sgeo> Bye elliott and all
15:17:58 <Sgeo> [Well, I might be here a few more minutes. Don't rely on it though]
15:18:01 <Vorpal> elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night.
15:18:29 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: When the KT-AT's rocking, you'd better not come a'knocking.
15:18:29 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but I have enough diamond blocks from spawn to make diamond armour and a sword.
15:18:30 -!- totem has left (?).
15:18:39 <elliott> Vorpal: And with that you don't _need_ a house.
15:18:47 <fizzie> (Based on the movie, those things seemed pretty wobbly.)
15:18:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server?
15:18:57 <Phantom_Hoover> No, he said that it was 5 hours for a sum total of half an hour of whatever the hell it is he plans to do.
15:19:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I have; you kill skeletons in two hits.
15:19:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, still you don't even have somewhere to hide at night.
15:19:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Do you have that locally or have you tried it on a test server? <-- tried what?
15:19:33 <fizzie> elliott: 5 hours of travel for 1.5 hours of "action".
15:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> He has a share in HHI, and as such can use corporate shelters.
15:19:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Diamond armour + sword.
15:20:10 <elliott> fizzie: Couldn't they just use a hotel?
15:20:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well I made some just now on ineiros' server
15:20:19 <elliott> I don't think they need to go to the Australian outback for some privacy.
15:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, with a dad like that, who knows
15:21:07 <elliott> They turn around and he's been following them ALL THIS TIME
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15:21:32 <elliott> j-invariant: Sgeo is in Australia
15:21:46 <elliott> j-invariant: what do you mean?
15:21:52 <elliott> also lol @ _01, i wonder what notch broke
15:22:02 <elliott> j-invariant: All water comes from nowhere.
15:22:07 <elliott> j-invariant: It's a water block.
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15:22:13 <j-invariant> minecraft does not have conservation of mass
15:22:13 <elliott> Just like at the edges of pools, say.
15:22:16 <elliott> And it flows down from there.
15:22:24 <elliott> j-invariant: All waterfalls are like that.
15:22:30 <elliott> j-invariant: (only 3 torches?)
15:22:36 <Sgeo> >.> we're not doing anything
15:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "The last one is interesting.. The problem with chunk visibility errors was that for some reason the “dirty” flag on chunks and the list of “dirty chunks” got out of synch. There wasn’t time to try to do a proper fix today, so I just made the client check a couple of dirty chunks per frame to make sure they’re in the list."
15:23:10 <elliott> Sgeo: [I am watching you. --your dad, proxying]
15:23:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So what's the secret useful block?
15:24:08 <elliott> ineiros: UPDATE THE SERVER
15:24:15 <nooga> is there something interesting in nether?
15:24:57 <Vorpal> ineiros, wait with updating server until hmod is updated (or bukkit is out)
15:25:06 <Vorpal> elliott, just use the alternative laucher to play
15:25:09 <elliott> Vorpal: hMod will never be updated.
15:25:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well wait for bukkit then
15:25:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Bukkit is not going to be stable for a _while_.
15:25:30 <elliott> They haven't even released a pre-alpha build yet.
15:25:39 <elliott> There is nothing wrong with the vanilla server, just don't make any big jumps.
15:25:43 <elliott> It's not like you do anyway, thanks to armour.
15:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well iirc hmod was going to be upgraded until hmod was out
15:25:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Allow me to quote.
15:25:56 <Vorpal> elliott, if I do that I take armour off.
15:26:01 <elliott> Although people have already been under the impression that we pledged to keep hMod up to date, this isn't the case. Prior to this announcement, we had not stated anywhere that we would be maintaining hMod and anyone believing otherwise was mistaken. However, we do recognise the predicament we've put server admins in as hey0 has announced that hMod is essentially no more, and Bukkit is not ready for public consumption yet.
15:26:02 <Phantom_Hoover> [[We will try and update hMod (at least this time)]] — Bukkit devs.
15:26:10 <elliott> Apparently the Bukkit team are "trying" to update hMod.
15:26:13 <elliott> But I wouldn't rely on it.
15:26:28 <elliott> It will take longer then the original beta update, I would bet.
15:26:35 <elliott> So I would just use the vanilla server for now.
15:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, just use the alternative launcher
15:26:56 <elliott> I've already updated, and I want lapis lazuli.
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15:27:14 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't have a backup? Well I could send you my files then
15:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli.
15:27:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I think you're missing something here: I _want_ to be updated.
15:27:32 <elliott> Vorpal: What exactly is wrong with the vanilla server?
15:27:38 <elliott> ineiros used it before and there were no problems.
15:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, no /home or /spawn
15:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Problem: we don't have bonemeal unless monsters are on.
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15:27:55 <elliott> It's not like you can't find Mount Vorpal.
15:28:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Less of a bugger than not having the newest version
15:28:15 <Vorpal> elliott, not really no. The current version works fine.
15:28:22 <Vorpal> but sure, as long as monsters are off.
15:28:53 <elliott> Current version isn't fine for anyone who's using the latest version in their single-player game
15:29:11 <Vorpal> elliott, easy to switch. just an mv
15:29:24 <Vorpal> elliott, and you always made backup of old version before
15:29:29 <Vorpal> so I would assume you have that now too
15:29:35 <elliott> No, I didn't, because I realise it'll only be useful for a few days.
15:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well then I can send you my files if you want.
15:30:24 <elliott> I'd rather ineiros updates :-P
15:30:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway no glass kit, no other kit either if you play without a mod
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15:31:07 <elliott> It's not like glass is being used much.
15:31:16 <elliott> And it's not like our tools are going to wear out in the next, uh, 100 years or so.
15:31:29 <fizzie> There is a "non-working" 1.2 hMod in th github, so someone's doing something, at least.
15:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, actually, shovels can wear out surprisingly quickly.
15:31:44 <elliott> OH NO GRASS WILL TAKE HALF A SECOND TO DIG!!!!!!!!!!
15:31:51 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, relevant: bonemeal can be turned into lapis lazuli. <-- how?
15:32:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is no mention on the wiki of that
15:32:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Advantage of latest beta: Coal is completely renewable.
15:32:15 <elliott> Vorpal: With a tree farm, you can turn 0 coal into 1,000,000 coal.
15:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, that is a minor advantage.
15:32:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Why? Wood can be smelted into 8 coal.
15:32:31 <elliott> Coal is the most useful fucking ore in the game.
15:32:35 <elliott> You have like 70 furnaces.
15:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, disadvantage: no hmod or bukkit yet
15:33:03 <elliott> Vorpal: ... seriously, how often do you use hMod commands? /home, /spawn, maybe.
15:33:08 <elliott> Health? You never do anything dangerous anyway.
15:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> We have enough iron stocks to offset health considerably anyway.
15:33:32 <elliott> How often do you use that?
15:33:35 <elliott> There's (1) glass and (2) tools.
15:33:41 <Vorpal> elliott, twice the last few hours. Been mining.
15:33:42 <elliott> You already have tools. Probably backups knowing you.
15:33:55 <elliott> Mining? Don't you have EVERY ORE EVER?
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15:34:19 <Vorpal> elliott, mining is also fun. Since I combined it with spelunking
15:34:33 <Vorpal> and without spelunking, what is the point of minecraft?
15:35:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and health off is important.
15:36:29 <elliott> You always do things the safest way. You rarely jump far.
15:36:37 <cheater00> is there a language with a continuous address space?
15:36:38 <elliott> How on EARTH is health a problem for you?
15:36:44 <Vorpal> elliott, never wondered why I had no armour the last few weeks?
15:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott, because it broke
15:37:15 <elliott> Vorpal: How did you lose health?
15:37:30 <Vorpal> elliott, fall damage mostly
15:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, given the health regenerates and armour doesn't, it's not too big a deal.
15:37:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Are you too stupid to see what's right ahead of you??
15:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Just don't jump down 20-metre drops and you'll be fine.
15:37:49 <elliott> Vorpal: But yeah, as Phantom_Hoover said, health regenerate.
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15:37:58 <elliott> I doubt you could die without being incredibly wilfully stupid.
15:38:00 <Vorpal> elliott, only if monsters are off though
15:38:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, you think ineiros is going to turn monsters on?
15:38:25 <elliott> "Oh, I was going to wait for hMod, BUT INSTEAD I TURNED MONSTERS AND PVP ON AND THEN DESTROYED YOUR HOUSE, ENJOY."
15:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, who knows. Has he been near alcohol?
15:38:39 <elliott> Ah, right, I forgot, alcohol turns people into abject morons in Vorpal-land.
15:38:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well remember hell world?
15:39:08 <elliott> Note how that had no lasting effects and did not take place in the actual world.
15:39:13 <elliott> Note how it happened only because of lots of invalid moving going on.
15:39:18 <elliott> Note how you're making no sense whatsoever.
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15:40:16 <fizzie> cheater00: Someone on comp.lang.c seriously suggested extending C so that floats can be used as array indices to access individual bits of the bytes.
15:40:47 <cheater00> fizzie: i was more thinking about arbitrary-precision definitions of data
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15:41:03 <cheater00> but i can see how floats would be fun there :D
15:41:04 <elliott> cheater00: the Infinity Machine has infinite-sequence-of-bits addressed memory.
15:41:13 <elliott> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
15:41:32 <elliott> An infinite sequence of bits is the same as a real.
15:41:37 <cheater00> elliott: the practical side of things will probably be very different.
15:41:39 <elliott> Don't disagree with that, because you'll be wrong.
15:41:45 <elliott> cheater00: This is not practical in any way, shape, or form.
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15:45:59 <cheater00> i'm installing half of windows on my ubuntu right now. meh
15:46:19 <j-invariant> I always thought it was rubbish so I never bothered
15:46:33 <cheater00> and this means i need to run winetricks
15:46:50 <j-invariant> I used to use Mac OS but I don't like apple any more
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15:47:20 <j-invariant> I think apple used to be a good company but they have rotted and now they push DRM etc etc
15:47:24 <elliott> j-invariant: i hate apple, just bought an apple machine, and don't use mac os on it
15:47:42 <j-invariant> yeah I couldn't install any GNU/Linux system of my mac
15:48:05 <cheater00> elliott: YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT
15:48:25 <elliott> *GNU/Linux/X.org/util-linux-ng/cron/...
15:48:48 <elliott> The providers of the X11 server. The term GNU/Linux is frankly offensive.
15:49:00 <cheater00> is that a kernel for the GNU operating system?
15:49:05 <j-invariant> Linux is a made up operating system from the hit TV series "The IT Crowd"
15:49:05 <elliott> No, GNU did _not_ provide all the software required to run this Linux machine.
15:49:17 <elliott> They don't get the right to the name just because they wrote the coreutils.
15:49:51 <elliott> j-invariant: Citation for what exactly?
15:50:03 <cheater00> elliott: for the fact that GNU did not make ALL of Linux
15:50:10 <elliott> j-invariant: That's a personal, subjective opinion.
15:50:16 <elliott> j-invariant: How am I supposed to provide a citation for it?
15:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> If you use non-GNU software integrally to your OS, "GNU/Linux" is inaccurate.
15:50:57 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: what about GNU+Linux?
15:50:59 <elliott> "Linux" is more acceptable since it is almost universally used as a generic term for a Linux-based operating system; "the Linux kernel" is more commonly used to refer to the kernel itself.
15:51:17 <elliott> "GNU/Linux" manages, by omission, to disregard all the other important parties who wrote software to make a modern Linux OS work fully.
15:51:24 <elliott> rms enjoys overstating GNU's efforts.
15:51:41 <elliott> j-invariant: As I said: Linux is used as a generic name to refer to a Linux-based operating system.
15:51:52 <elliott> j-invariant: "GNU/Linux" is explicitly defined, and exclusively used, as referring to Linux as a kernel.
15:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, you still haven't demonstrated that you aren't English and as such should not be ignored, BtW.
15:52:02 <elliott> Therefore, "GNU/Linux" disregards more efforts than "Linux".
15:52:11 <elliott> And also puts GNU in an unwarranted position of importance.
15:52:38 <elliott> And, uh, kFreeBSD if you use Debian :-P
15:52:48 <elliott> Except that uses BSD libc I think. Or does it? I don't know. Maybe not.
15:53:42 <cheater00> the three kernels of the ELLIOTT operating system.
15:53:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ ask bf do ft id msg pl rc v wn
15:54:15 <cheater00> are there any kernels being developed for lambda machines?
15:54:32 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:54:44 <elliott> !bf_txtgen rambunctiability
15:54:55 <elliott> cheater00: Uh, Genera is still sold but not maintained.
15:55:03 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: when, in such a fun thing! just foaming at the
15:55:18 <cheater00> doesn't the GNU operating system (emacs) work on lisp machines?
15:56:10 <elliott> cheater00: Symbolics machines came with Zmacs.
15:56:21 <EgoBot> 136 ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----. [700]
15:56:23 <elliott> cheater00: Well, and all other Lisp Machines.
15:56:28 <elliott> "Zmacs was written for the MIT Lisp machine and runs on its descendants (Symbolics Genera, LMI Lambda, TI Explorer). Zmacs is written in Lisp Machine Lisp (called ZetaLisp on Symbolics Lisp Machines)."
15:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> @bf ++++++++++++++[>+>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++.>>-.<<-----.>.<++++++++.-------.>+.<++++++.>++++++.>.+.+++++++.+++.<.<.+++++.<----.
15:57:47 <cheater00> i can hear a lot of teen girls outside my door
15:58:04 <elliott> !bf_txtgen On Thinkable Forms, with notes towards a Logical Imaging Technique
15:58:08 <EgoBot> 653 ++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++++>+++<<<<-]>-----.>++.>>----.<<<+++++.++++++++++++++++++++.+.>.---.<--------.+.>+.<+++.>>>.<--.<<++++++++++.+++.>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.>++++++++++++.------------.<++++.<---.>---.<-.>>.<<<----.+.>>.<---.>-.>.<+.-----.++++++++.<----.<+++.>+++.>----.>.<<---.>>.<<---------------------.>----.<<-----------.++.------.--.>>---.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:00:16 <nooga> i should generate a new world after update
16:00:27 <nooga> to mine new blocks, right?
16:00:41 <nooga> or just move around to generate new chunks?
16:01:33 <elliott> nooga: you may want to use a mapping tool to find where the nearest unloaded part is
16:02:21 <elliott> fizzie: "Oh look, flight in Beta." http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=131336&sid=9ad025becbbe3a02f18bb7fa340b6670
16:02:24 <elliott> fizzie: Bat -- out of the cag.
16:06:42 <nooga> cheater00 is not back
16:07:11 <nooga> oh i thought the girls
16:07:27 <nooga> what were they doing there?
16:07:45 <cheater00> i live in a big house that has two ballrooms
16:07:54 <cheater00> since monday they're being used for a ballet school
16:08:15 <cheater00> the teacher is all like "hey wanna join the classez"
16:08:43 <cheater00> and i'm mostly like "i'll have to see which group i like most"
16:10:40 <j-invariant> elliott: You know what really really irritates me
16:10:52 <elliott> j-invariant: No, no I don't
16:11:02 <j-invariant> when people say "yes, yes it is" or whatever
16:11:27 <elliott> It's for emphasis, welcome to language :P
16:12:08 <copumpkin> you mean "I'm not _not_ sad" doesn't mean exactly that you're sad??
16:16:51 <j-invariant> What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the system is basically GNU.
16:16:54 <j-invariant> If you feel even more strongly about giving credit where it is due, you might feel that some secondary contributors also deserve credit in the system's name. If so, far be it from us to argue against it. If you feel that X11 deserves credit in the system's name, and you want to call the system GNU/X11/Linux, please do. If you feel that Perl simply cries out for mention, and you want to write GNU/Linux/Perl, go ahead.
16:17:00 <j-invariant> Since a long name such as GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv becomes absurd, at some point you will have to set a threshold and omit the names of the many other secondary contributions. There is no one obvious right place to set the threshold, so wherever you set it, we won't argue against it.
16:17:05 <j-invariant> Different threshold levels would lead to different choices of name for the system. But one name that cannot result from concerns of fairness and giving credit, not for any possible threshold level, is “Linux”. It can't be fair to give all the credit to one secondary contribution (Linux) while omitting the principal contribution (GNU).
16:18:10 <elliott> j-invariant: GNU is not the principal contributor to Linux.
16:18:31 <elliott> Additionally "Linux" as a name does NOT refer to the kernel, it refers to the kernel PLUS all the additional software. That is how the terminology has evolved.
16:18:41 <elliott> Claiming otherwise is dishonest.
16:19:43 <elliott> j-invariant: Because it distorts the facts in a way that makes GNU look more important than they are, to serve something GNU wants (for people to call it GNU/Linux).
16:21:16 <Vorpal> j-invariant, "GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv" <-- interesting product
16:21:31 * Vorpal tries to figure out what combining perl, tex and python would do
16:21:33 <elliott> j-invariant: For instance "GNU is the principal contributor to a full Linux-based system" is incorrect.
16:22:00 <Vorpal> (yeah yeah, not meant like that)
16:22:06 <elliott> There is no one principal contributor.
16:22:15 <j-invariant> In 2008, we found that GNU packages made up 15% of the “main” repository of the gNewSense GNU/Linux distribution. Linux made up 1.5%. So the same argument would apply even more strongly to calling it “Linux”.
16:22:26 <elliott> j-invariant: Package count is irrelevant.
16:22:45 <elliott> j-invariant: gNewSense is a biased source; it is a GNU project that refuses to package software the FSF doesn't consider a suitable part of a Free system, this includes Firefox.
16:22:53 <elliott> They instead package a GNU fork of Firefox, artificially inflating the GNU count here. etc.
16:23:01 <Vorpal> j-invariant, Linux deserves a mention. It is the kernel after all. Same goes for any other kernel.
16:23:17 <elliott> If Ubuntu replaced the GNU coreutils with a fully-featured BusyBox tomorrow, yes, the system would be different, but the essential use of the system for 90% of its users would be very, very similar.
16:23:21 <Vorpal> at least more than the userland does
16:23:29 <elliott> Debian and Ubuntu already use a non-GNU C library -- eglibc, a fork of the GNU libc.
16:23:43 <elliott> Even then, they could use a fully-featured uClibc and the system would still be very similar.
16:23:48 <elliott> Not the same, but similar.
16:23:55 <elliott> j-invariant: Heck, for most users of Ubuntu, the main contributor is GNOME.
16:24:01 <elliott> That is a GNU project, yes.
16:24:02 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I would react, mostly because much of my .bashrc would be broken :P
16:24:09 <elliott> j-invariant: I have a dormant distribution project.
16:24:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I said similar for most users.
16:24:21 <elliott> j-invariant: What's... KDE?
16:24:29 <elliott> Is that the question you are actually asking...?
16:24:52 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I could survive. Might patch busybox grep to add --colour=auto or such. And a few small things like that
16:25:12 <elliott> Notably it gives me good grounds to claim that GNU is not an essential part of Linux systems; I (was going to) use uClibc and BusyBox.
16:25:36 <elliott> Leaving the main GNU software being, uh, the core compilation tools (binutils and gcc), and Emacs.
16:25:52 <elliott> If you're a vi fan and use clang, that's reduced to just binutils.
16:26:09 <Vorpal> elliott, btw do you know any better way than temporarily changing the /bin/sh symlink to bash from dash when a build system refuses to work with dash as /bin/sh. In this case it was some sub-configure of older binutils that I needed to a cross tolchain (no support for that target in recent binutils)
16:26:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Gregor has the solution to that.
16:26:26 <Vorpal> or was it a sub-configure of old gcc? hm. One of them
16:26:45 <elliott> Let's see, what would the syntax be...
16:26:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, something that works with minimal work. Something that is easier than sudo -s and changing the symlink around
16:27:00 <Vorpal> elliott, like setting an env variable or something
16:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: $ sps with 'sh == bash' -- ./configure
16:27:12 <elliott> Assuming == is the syntax for setting the selected metapackage or whatever.
16:27:23 <Vorpal> elliott, takes more work since I would need to install that and so on.
16:27:34 <elliott> Vorpal: "How can I solve this problem without changing anything?" You can't.
16:28:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well I had a vague memory that make had some MAKE_SHELL_TO_BE_USED env var.
16:28:04 <Vorpal> (with some other name)
16:28:10 <elliott> Vorpal: How about $ find . | xargs sed -i 's,/bin/sh,bash,g'
16:28:23 <elliott> Also, confgure isn't make.
16:28:36 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, but I was hoping it had something similar
16:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you know, it has CC, LD, and what not
16:29:20 <elliott> if ! [ "x$SH" = "x" ]; then
16:29:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well the issue here was that it was in a subconfigure. And also I think inside a statement using sh -c or similar
16:29:34 <elliott> if ! [ "$SH" = "/bin/sh" ]; then
16:29:57 <elliott> (Verbosity added due to configure working on ANY SYSTEM YOU WANT, so long as it's GNU.)
16:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well just doing bash ./configure would work EXCEPT that it was one of the damn recursive configures that was invoked after you run make
16:30:25 <elliott> Throw it out and write your own program.
16:30:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh wow, with that SH thing, you could do
16:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, for older gcc you did a cross toolchain by cd gcc-source && ln -s ../binutils-source/foo
16:31:23 <Vorpal> elliott, and then you built gcc and binutils together at once
16:32:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I had to patch gcc configure since it grepped configure.ac of binutils for the version of it, and depended on a specific whitespace length for indentation. Which was no longer the case.
16:32:48 <Vorpal> elliott, gnu buildsystem eh?
16:33:06 <elliott> But don't you know, it's _portable_.
16:33:13 <Vorpal> elliott, except not between versions
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16:39:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Get that APT developer over here to tell me how to write cabal2deb.
16:40:43 <Vorpal> elliott, over here, why not go to where that guy is
16:41:14 <elliott> Also ostensibly minorly incompetent.
16:42:29 <elliott> Strike ostensibly, minorly, insert incredibly.
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16:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> (And probably failed Higher maths, which is an exercise in stupidity.)
16:51:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
16:53:11 <SgeoN1> It wont take as long as I thought to get there, or to wait once I'm there. I miscounted
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16:54:38 <SgeoN1> A detour around a train station my dad said was unsafe
16:54:58 <SgeoN1> Also, me preferring tl be an hour early than a little late
16:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact, you will have to pay me not to go through with it.
16:56:11 <SgeoN1> It would have only saved 20 min or so to use that route, and due to my wish to be early I would have left the house at the same time
16:56:58 <elliott> There's this film noir mafia train station in my head and I love it.
16:59:00 <SgeoN1> There better be a place to sit
16:59:36 <SgeoN1> Going to save battery. Bye.
16:59:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
17:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "Don't go through that station, Seth. THERE MIGHT NOT BE A PLACE TO SIT"
17:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> If this conversation did not take place someone will die.
17:00:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh, best part of Incompetent APT Guy: despite having evidently no aptitude for mathematics whatsoever, he wants to do CS at university
17:01:38 <j-invariant> today, CS is for people who "can't do math"
17:01:41 <elliott> Seth... that station be grue territory. Don't go/
17:02:35 <elliott> j-invariant: there are good CS curricula out there ... but ...
17:03:23 <elliott> i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world
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17:04:35 <elliott> oxford apparently uses Haskell and Oberon for first-years, which is an... interesting combination
17:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i suspect scotland of holding them hostage from the rest of the world ← hm?
17:05:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Think Epigram.
17:06:31 <elliott> Indeed. Perhaps I shall step in front of a train.
17:06:50 <elliott> What, someone actually uses csh.
17:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, it's not just that he can't do maths, he's doing Higher /again/.
17:08:05 <elliott> Meanwhile: "Gnus is an awesome mail and news reader, but it can be a bit of a performance bear, especially when using IMAP. Since Emacs is single-threaded, IMAP operations that take too long can disconnect you from IRC, Jabber, or any number of other network services you also use from Emacs."
17:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> This implies he either failed or got an abysmal mark when he first did it.
17:08:11 <j-invariant> wait I don't even know who you are talking about
17:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, just so you know, Higher maths goes no further than basic calculus.
17:09:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:09:59 <elliott> i was just thinking about scapegoat actually
17:10:12 <pikhq> elliott: ... Emacs is single-threaded? Wow. It's even more of a hack than I thought.
17:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, a guy at my school who is an APT developer or somesuch.
17:10:19 <elliott> pikhq: You didn't know that?
17:10:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm fairly sure he hasn't actually submitted any code for apt.
17:10:46 <j-invariant> if he hacks on some serious software he probably has some ability
17:11:04 <j-invariant> I would put not being skilled at mathematics down to the low quality of mathematics education in general
17:11:12 <elliott> j-invariant: As I said, he doesn't actually code apt.
17:11:17 <elliott> He just creates deb packages.
17:11:24 <elliott> Seemingly limited to applying other people's debdiffs.
17:11:28 <elliott> At least that's what I could find.
17:11:51 <elliott> That would likely be living hell and Phantom_Hoover has other things he has to do.
17:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> He is also doing Advanced Higher computing, which, given my understanding of the SQA computing curricula, is probably just going to make him even worse at coding.
17:13:17 <pikhq> Well. I suppose they do actually run on DOS still.
17:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I was deleting the "higher mathematics" to leave "curriculum" in Google, then started typing "advanced" at the start... and it came up with "advanced kindergarten curriculum".
17:13:45 <elliott> ais523: can I ask you a scapegoat question?
17:13:56 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Fingerpainting and quantum physics!
17:14:08 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY, need to see the AH computing curriculum to see if it's contempt-worthy.
17:15:17 <j-invariant> 17:14 * Phantom_Hoover despairs at the world.
17:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, what can I do? I never exactly learned to program in any well-defined way myself.
17:16:50 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: you could learn some things from books
17:17:57 <elliott> j-invariant: why should he teach him how to program
17:18:00 <pikhq> So, SCEA v. George Hotz et al. is currently having a hearing regarding SCEA's motion for a temporary restraining order...
17:18:06 <pikhq> Wonder how that's going down.
17:18:12 <elliott> why do you believe he wants to be taught, he believes he can program already i gather
17:18:16 <elliott> j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover
17:18:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I could always just chuck SICP at him and hope it sticks.
17:18:27 <elliott> j-invariant: how would it help Phantom_Hoover?
17:18:56 <elliott> j-invariant: I think Phantom_Hoover is competent enough already
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17:20:13 <pikhq> Formal education in programming is, frankly, not helpful until you've got a general idea how it all works *anyways*...
17:20:15 <j-invariant> elliott: that's daft, you can always learn more
17:20:34 <elliott> j-invariant: not by teaching someone who already thinks he can program and has Strong Opinions that are wrong
17:20:46 <quintopia> how to program is a silly subject. algorithms and proofs thereof is where it's at, man
17:20:47 <pikhq> And heck, even formal "intro to programming" classes understand that. They pretty much go as far as "I want you to program this."
17:21:08 <elliott> ais523: when you append a file to a directory, you also put the objects (StartOfFile <filehash>) and (EndOfFile <filehash>) in the database, right?
17:21:12 <ais523> near-guaranteed way to spot spam #n+1: the body of the email asks you to contact an email address, claiming it's the author's, but which doesn't match the from or reply-to fields
17:21:20 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, yes, that's something that goes a bit beyond just "Here's the *bare basics*, now write some shit."
17:21:31 <ais523> so you have something to reference when you add to the file
17:21:32 <j-invariant> ais523: that could happen if someone changed their email address though
17:21:50 <ais523> j-invariant: hmm, I should add "without any indication of why that should be"
17:22:00 <elliott> ais523: I'm trying to implement all the basic change algorithms in Haskell now, as pure as possible, but I'm having trouble doing ordered vs. unordered change structures elegantly
17:22:06 <elliott> ais523: most of the algorithms on them are the same, but they share basically no members
17:22:24 <ais523> that's interesting, but maybe not so surprising
17:22:32 <quintopia> pikhq: i think of "programming" as translating proven ideas into established languages. and therefore, yes, it is the easy part :P
17:22:48 <elliott> ais523: right now I'm considering just having SOF/EOF, the model being that there's only one file in this pure implementation :-)
17:22:59 <pikhq> Programming is a craft.
17:23:01 <ais523> that might be a good start
17:23:22 <pikhq> Like other crafts, the way to learn it is to just do it a lot.
17:23:56 <j-invariant> the only reason it is a craft is because we don't properly understand it yet
17:24:34 <elliott> ais523: hmm, how would you grep a file for two things?
17:24:46 <elliott> ais523: i.e., i want to filter the results of a grep by only showing the files that /also/ match another grep on that file
17:25:04 <j-invariant> quintopia: something based on a foundation. e.g. bridge building today is quite sensible, we know which ones stay up and which fall down
17:25:23 <j-invariant> quintopia: but in the past we could not build such a variety of interesting bridges because only a very small number were known to stay up
17:25:44 <j-invariant> quintopia: I think programming will be similar: We should learn structural properties of large csale programming that "stay up"
17:26:14 <pikhq> j-invariant: We know *precisely* how to do large scale programming "right".
17:26:24 <quintopia> that's being done to i think. that is called software engineering i ween, and some places teach it better than others.
17:26:38 <quintopia> of course, it's nowhere near the level of bridge-building yet
17:26:44 <pikhq> elliott: Well, "right" to the extent that we can create bug-free programs.
17:26:52 <quintopia> because bridge-building fundamentals are more standardized
17:26:54 <elliott> quintopia: software engineering is code for "code monkey training"
17:26:57 <j-invariant> pikhq: I want to make a bug free program :(
17:26:58 <pikhq> It's obnoxiously expensive!
17:27:07 <elliott> pikhq: You mean the NASA model?
17:27:09 <quintopia> elliott: sadly, yes, in most places it is
17:27:20 <elliott> It is _not_ a fundamentally hard task, I don't think.
17:27:22 <pikhq> elliott: Well. Yes, I mean the NASA model.
17:27:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, I thought Sgeo was doing SE-but-stupider?
17:27:38 <elliott> Is creating each bridge an immensely difficult effort that goes under intense, INTENSE scrutiny, where the architect has little freedom because IT MUST WORK?
17:27:53 <elliott> Bridges are made all the time with not much fuss at all.
17:27:58 <j-invariant> the NASA model is very interesting but I don't suppose it's necessary to work that way
17:28:11 <j-invariant> Currently it may well be the best, but in future there could be a "cheaper" way
17:28:20 <quintopia> elliott: galloping gertie aside, of course
17:28:23 <ais523> elliott: how would you grep a file for two things? <-- grep -l | xargs grep
17:28:30 <cheater00> elliott: is that a multiline grep?
17:28:51 <ais523> what elliott asked for was grepping only files that matched another grep
17:28:59 <pikhq> Anyways, a large part of the problem we see with common programs is that they are written in languages that make it *trivial* to introduce bugs.
17:29:01 <ais523> and that's what xargs is for, pretty much
17:29:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel at this point that I should point out that bridges are vastly easier to reason about than your average program.
17:29:11 <pikhq> And even very dangerous bugs.
17:29:16 <j-invariant> pikhq: yeah. That's insane, it's mad that people still use e.g. PHP
17:29:21 <ais523> obviously I've left a bunch of stuff out of the command line, but elliott's easily intelligent enough to infer it emself
17:29:22 <j-invariant> pikhq: I just cannot understand that one bit
17:29:24 <pikhq> Off-by-one error in C? Bam, you're fucked.
17:29:47 <ais523> pikhq: not many languages make it easy to avoid bugs
17:29:50 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, I think he's thinking more of C and other languages which are stupidly low-level but are ubiquitous because programmers are, by and large, idiots.
17:30:04 <elliott> ais523: wtf, i seem to be unable to find my pastie of my scapegoat algo :D
17:30:10 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but some languages make it easy to hit horrifyingly dangerous bugs.
17:30:11 <ais523> arguably, Java was designed like that, but it doesn't actually help because throwing an exception and doing nothing about it is not much better than simply crashing
17:30:27 <ais523> pikhq: where "horrifingly dangerous" = security bug? data loss bug
17:30:44 <pikhq> Think "buffer overflows".
17:30:48 <pikhq> So, yeah, security bug.
17:30:58 <ais523> buffer overflows are just one sort of security bug
17:31:15 <pikhq> Yes, it's just an example of one that low-level languages make really easy to hit.
17:31:28 <ais523> I'm not even sure they're the most common, exploitable dangling/NULL pointers seem around as common
17:31:30 <quintopia> um...what sort of people don't do something useful with caught exceptions? (tbh, i don't like the way java does exceptions, but i don't like people who ignore errors even more)
17:31:33 <ais523> alhtough they're a bit harder to exploit
17:31:45 <cheater00> this env variable isn't in any scripts that i know of!
17:31:57 <ais523> quintopia: people who just squash the error message, or log it, or whatever, or throw it right out of the program
17:32:01 <pikhq> A buffer overflow can also just cause very unpredictable behavior.
17:32:04 <ais523> in fact, I hardly ever see exceptions handled sensibly
17:32:16 <quintopia> ais523: yes, i meant, what is those people's IQ level?
17:32:18 <pikhq> At least a crash in a Java program does just that: it stops working.
17:32:35 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/esotericlogs$ grep 'elliott>.*http://sprunge' 10* | sed 's/.*http/http/g;s,us/\(\w*\).*,us/\1,g' | while read url; do echo "$url: $(curl -s $url | head -n 1)"; done
17:32:36 <ais523> quintopia: probably quite high, programmers tend to be more intelligent than average, I imagine
17:32:41 <ais523> it's not a case of stupidity, it's a case of not caring
17:32:50 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
17:33:10 <pikhq> Whereas in C, you could hypothetically have the program start formatting the hard drive while whistling, because the programmer forgot to check the size of a buffer.
17:33:12 <ais523> incidentally, I'm wondering how easy that operation would be in Windows, I doubt it would be a one-liner...
17:33:55 <ais523> pikhq: there was a thread on comp.lang.c where they asked people what the worst undefined behaviour behaviour was that they'd ever seen in practice
17:34:09 <ais523> someone had a buffer overflow jump to the "are you sure?" of the format routine, which happened to be in RAM at the time
17:34:27 <ais523> and said they thought themselves lucky that it didn't jump to just after the check
17:34:37 <ais523> (it may well have tried to format a nonexistent drive, though)
17:34:52 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, that's positively frightening.
17:35:02 <Ilari> No MMU in that computer?
17:35:13 <pikhq> Ilari: Probably DOS.
17:35:17 <elliott> ais523: i just want to make sure you realise that applying changes in scapegoat involves a potentially expensive topographic sort
17:35:22 <ais523> Ilari: they didn't say it was DOS, but that was implied
17:35:30 <ais523> elliott: yep, that seems plausible
17:35:42 <ais523> I'm one for semantics first, efficiency second, in most cases
17:35:43 <elliott> ais523: because, you have to figure out the order to apply it in to avoid fake conflicts
17:35:46 <ais523> because most things can be optimised
17:35:55 <elliott> ais523: oh, in my opinion this is a great achievement
17:36:11 <elliott> ais523: previously, it was thought that a version control system being slower than darcs 1 was a logical impossibility
17:36:15 <elliott> but we will prove them wrong
17:36:55 <Vorpal> elliott, darcs 1? what is the current version of it?
17:37:02 <ais523> I think it optimises pretty well, actually; you can cache tsorts
17:37:07 <elliott> they solved a major inefficiency
17:37:25 <ais523> elliott: to be precise, 1 and 2 have a similar average case (although I think it's faster), but 1 had a completely insane worst case
17:37:32 <ais523> which was hit in practice fairly often
17:38:26 <elliott> ais523: here is what inspired me to resume implementing scapegoat, by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGmwA5yBn0
17:38:38 <elliott> ais523: I figured I should get to the point where I can make a video with an EVEN BETTER commit tree.
17:39:17 <j-invariant> There is so much resistance to the improvement of programming
17:40:04 <j-invariant> juts look at blog posts or reddit or anything like that
17:40:32 <ais523> I mean, you may be correct, but your statement's too vague for me to be sure of what it means
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17:43:05 <ais523> this channel's definition of "improvement of programming" may be quite different from many others'...
17:44:40 <elliott> ais523: that video, incidentally, makes me dislike git
17:44:50 <elliott> I didn't quite realise the implications of its rather basic model
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17:46:20 <elliott> pikhq: I improved on your lambdas in C, but completing the implementation requires some cpp hackery that I'm not good enough to do.
17:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, you started disliking git heh
17:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm actually interested in how Scapegoat works now.
17:46:27 <Vorpal> I'm going to watch that video
17:46:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Well it's still what I'd use in practice if not darcs, but scapegoat is better.
17:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, I'm happy to explain it but ask ais523 first; if he wants me to I will, but he gets the first opportunity
17:47:19 <ais523> you'd better, I'm currently angry (at something unrelated to this channel)
17:47:36 <oerjan> variable: do you still think it's hard to combine haskell's IO with the functional parts? (my impression is: it depends on how interactive your IO is)
17:47:38 <elliott> ais523: More NetBeans students?
17:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, darcs is quite decent is isn't it? A bit weird and long names for the commands, but the same applies to git ("git st"? nope, "git status", sure sure tab complete, but even so there are more than one thing that tab complete on git st<tab>)
17:48:05 <ais523> elliott: surprisingly, no
17:48:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That latter is such a minor complaint that I can't even comprehend it.
17:48:14 <j-invariant> oerjan: oen thing that sucks is taking a pure code and moving it into a monad... Then again the oenly reason it's such a pain to do is because it /could/ be automated
17:48:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well no it isn't a major issue. Just convenience of short commands
17:48:34 <ais523> darcs tab-completes just fine on Debian/Ubuntu
17:49:16 <ais523> I'm using a mixture of darcs and git for things nowadays; git when I have to collaborate with someone else a lot, darcs for personal things
17:49:22 <oerjan> j-invariant: well turning pure code into monadic requires making a decision about order of actions, which might not be relevant for the pure version
17:49:35 <ais523> (and git for collaboration with others only because it's more popular so it's easier to persuade them to use it)
17:49:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, so, do you know the basics of how git and darcs work?
17:50:08 <oerjan> (as i see it that's the same problem as with the interactivity)
17:50:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's an incredibly bad description
17:50:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: err, i can't really explain it then if you don't know the basic model of those two
17:50:20 <ais523> as it applies only vaguely to git, and not really to darcs at all
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17:50:51 <ais523> (although it is possible to find something corresponding to a revision in darcs, say to port a darcs repo to a different VCS; it's a snapshot of the code as it was at a given time)
17:52:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then I cannot explain scapegoat to you, and nor can anyone else really.
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17:53:53 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I think I really "get" git now, it's a bit like C in a way, you do everything by hand
17:54:11 <elliott> ais523: what horrifies me is git-rebase
17:54:22 <elliott> ais523: and the fact that people actually use it -- regularly
17:54:22 <ais523> elliott: it horrifies me too, although probably not for the same reason
17:54:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not really, I don't know what's good to read
17:54:36 <ais523> hey, I use it regularly when I use git
17:54:36 <elliott> ais523: my reason is that THAT SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED EVER
17:54:45 <ais523> because it doesn't really work otherwise
17:54:48 <elliott> ais523: use it regularly and *recommend it as a Good Thing*
17:55:00 <elliott> "gee keep your revision log clean!"
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17:55:08 <ais523> elliott: put it this way, a simple git pull has an implicit rebase if it fast-forwards
17:55:14 <elliott> You fail at version control.
17:55:19 <elliott> ais523: which is just a flaw in git
17:55:23 <elliott> really though, it's rewriting history
17:55:28 <elliott> I can't imagine how anyone thinks that's a good idea
17:55:41 <ais523> because git shows your history as you wish it were, rather than as how it actually was
17:56:26 <ais523> if your repo starts out the same as someone else's, they make some changes, you pull them, your repos now have different histories, as one pulled the changes in a chunk, the other made them one at a time
17:56:37 <ais523> in fact, git actually inherently goes exponential without any sort of rebase
17:56:50 <ais523> because you have to keep on merging the fact that you're aware of the fact that the other person merged
17:56:56 <ais523> now, I'm not saying this is a good thing at all
17:57:25 <ais523> (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works)
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17:58:11 <SgeoN1> A few minutes after I got here, she called to say she missed her bus
17:59:06 <elliott> ais523: coding haskell makes me crazy
17:59:18 <elliott> I have to distill every algorithm down to the point where it's just a few combinators put together
17:59:20 <elliott> anything else and I've failed
18:00:06 <Vorpal> <ais523> (git disregarding the same change made by two people in parallel I thought was just a detail, it's actually completely essential to the way that git works) <-- who gets credited with it then?
18:00:11 <SgeoN1> We're going to try again tomorrow
18:00:35 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not entirely sure, it might actually be different in the two repos
18:00:49 <ais523> because from git's view of the world, it doesn't matter
18:01:42 <elliott> @undo do { x <- apply c xs; return $ (c1',s1) : (c2',s2) : x }
18:01:42 <lambdabot> apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:01:48 <Vorpal> ais523, so the revision id checksum thingy is on the delta, and doesn't include commit message or author?
18:01:50 <elliott> @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:01:51 <lambdabot> ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs
18:02:48 <elliott> ais523: "replace SOF with X" is an invalid change, right?
18:03:06 <elliott> ais523: (I'm assuming there's a replace, since having it as a delete+insert causes fake conflicts)
18:03:19 <elliott> (if not, "delete SOF/EOF" is an invalid change, right?)
18:07:20 <elliott> I think ais523 just removed SOF.
18:11:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Towards Dawn did it with tiny platforms.
18:12:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I have enough wood now that I can smelt some coal overnight and get some torches.
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18:14:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't?
18:14:56 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:14:59 <elliott> How many logs did you start with?
18:16:09 <oerjan> 19:04 elliott> @pl apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:16:10 <oerjan> 19:04 lambdabot> ([(c1', s1), (c2', s2)] ++) `fmap` apply c xs
18:16:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have 26+5 right now, how much more should I get?
18:16:17 <oerjan> ooh, @pl is that clever now?
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18:16:32 <elliott> oerjan: became: apply c xs >>= \ x -> return $ (c1', s1) : (c2', s2) : x
18:16:40 <elliott> oerjan: became | otherwise = (((c1',s1) :) . ((c2',s2) :)) <$> apply c xs
18:17:24 <oerjan> elliott: you didn't use the [...] ++ ?
18:17:35 <elliott> oerjan: no, because I have ((foo,bar) :) <$> in other cases of the function
18:17:37 <elliott> so this is more consistent
18:18:04 <oerjan> elliott: i think you have a redundant set of parentheses there
18:18:19 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Functor.<$>' [infixl 4] of a section
18:19:03 <oerjan> the precedence of . is lower
18:19:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Start a tree farm, btw.
18:19:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 10 cobble enough for the first night?
18:20:00 <oerjan> elliott: basically . has the highest possible precedence, and $ has the lowest
18:20:16 <elliott> oerjan: um there is no $ here
18:20:52 <oerjan> elliott: no, it's just a general rule i go by
18:21:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FWIW, how much wood did you start off with?
18:21:33 <oerjan> in fact it annoyed me that Parsec gave another operator (<?> iirc) the same precedence as $, in a way that ruined the ability to combine them
18:22:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how come everyone else's days seem to last 2398234982349 longer than mine
18:22:23 <oerjan> (if <?> had reversed its order of arguments and used the same fixity as $, they would have worked seamlessly together without parentheses)
18:22:32 <j-invariant> that's weird. I found smoe new kind of wood but it's still called wood
18:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> But by that point I had plenty of wood, cobble and dirt, so I just set up the base as night fell.
18:23:17 <oerjan> the Prelude has no operators sharing precedence with either . or $ afair
18:23:21 <elliott> TODO: get a few more cobbles and then go up.
18:23:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's the third?
18:23:53 <oerjan> (well s/Prelude/\& and Haskell 98 library/
18:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (The cobbles aren't that necessary, I just wanted them for peace of mind.)
18:24:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The cobbles are required for furnace and also for initial tools.
18:25:06 <j-invariant> Phantom_Hoover: nice, I really like this new kind
18:25:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For instance a wood sword won't get you very fa.
18:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, OK, but you won't need tools once you get up onto your platform for the night.
18:25:43 <elliott> j-invariant: But the next day...
18:25:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How high did you make your shelter?
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18:26:06 <elliott> j-invariant: make my function prettier! http://sprunge.us/ECZO :P
18:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I now have a 5x5 tree plantation with 9 saplings!
18:26:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Off sea level?
18:26:57 <oerjan> impomatic: hm i have a vague idea there was something i wanted to tell you
18:27:29 <impomatic> Oerjan: was it about corewar, programming games or recursion?
18:27:42 <oerjan> hm _possibly_ recursion
18:28:10 <impomatic> Oerjan: or maybe you wanted to join the mob of people angry at me for some dodgy Forth code!
18:28:14 <oerjan> maybe i already did tell you, i'm not sure
18:28:25 <oerjan> impomatic: i'm pretty sure it wasn't forth-related
18:28:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did you use the dirt to be one piece of the floor?
18:28:39 <elliott> i assume you made the house itself out of planks
18:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you make walls?
18:29:04 <oerjan> impomatic: hm was it something wiki-related...
18:29:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling?
18:29:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A ceiling?
18:30:07 <impomatic> Oerjan: it might have been, I was asking about BF Joust, FYB, pastebin.ca and broken voxel links a few days ago :-P
18:30:29 <oerjan> impomatic: oh BF Joust it was
18:30:40 <oerjan> impomatic: i wanted to suggest you ask in agora
18:30:54 <pikhq> And a gigantic swath of APNIC allocations leaves them below 2.1 /8s.
18:30:55 <oerjan> since that's where it was invented
18:31:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did you build a one-high wall to stop you falling out, or are you more hardcore than me?
18:31:21 <pikhq> Which is their usual allocation threshold...
18:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I might build a fence, but it might be too much bother if I expand.
18:32:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm above water, so I can just jump off if I want. MWAHAHAHAHA
18:32:38 <pikhq> IANA depletion estimate: any minute now.
18:33:18 <impomatic> Oerjan: I found what I needed to know thanks... I was adding a brief history to the page on the programming games wiki http://programminggames.org/BF-Joust.ashx
18:34:20 <oerjan> impomatic: oh you're Imp... you _do_ have a User:Impomatic too
18:34:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: One log only produces one coal.
18:34:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well it's INEFFICIENT!
18:35:21 <impomatic> Oerjan: I know, but I forgot the password and I didn't set an email address to recover it :-(
18:35:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's 5/4 logs to 1 coal.
18:35:32 <pikhq> Ilari: APNIC's pool is at 2.01 /8s. Thought you'd like to know.
18:35:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, of course, you can use the coal as fuel.
18:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Sod it. I am just going to set the difficulty to peaceful for a second and despawn the creepers.
18:37:54 <pikhq> http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information
18:38:16 <elliott> I'm going to go on to hard.
18:38:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Question. Can trees grow on the corner of a platform?
18:38:37 * oerjan checks that he has his email set
18:39:15 <impomatic> Would anyone be interested in an ARobots tournament? http://programminggames.org/ARobots.ashx - basically CROBOTS in 8086 assembly
18:40:01 <Ilari> "When APNIC only has a total of one /8 left, the final /8 policy will be triggered." -- That's presumably some APNIC-internal policy...
18:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I'm just trying to get rid of daytime creepers, which are ridiculously broken gameplay-wise.
18:40:39 <pikhq> Ilari: Yeah, that's an allocation policy for dealing with being near RIR depletion.
18:41:19 <pikhq> For rationing out the very last /8.
18:41:23 <oerjan> Ilari: of course it doesn't actually _matter_ when they allocate, given that no one else is likely to do so. apart from the news/propaganda value.
18:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, slightly more awesome version of the lavalight: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-lava-force-field.png
18:42:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Facepalm. I just placed torches in my tree farm.
18:42:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My tree farm that gets sunlight.
18:42:25 <pikhq> IPv4 depletion is near and I still don't have IPv6 service from my ISP.
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18:44:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What should I do with my SEXY BLACK WOOL
18:46:07 <elliott> "Since my abandonment of RCS in favor of hg has caused comex to start
18:46:07 <elliott> tracking the ruleset again, I resign as Rulekeepor."
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18:48:09 <Ilari> According to APNIC extended delegated file, they have 33 608 704 IPs available (2.003 blocks)
18:50:10 <Ilari> Lagerholm estimated that the request will be sent on monday and takes few days to process, officially depleting the pool on wednesday or thursday...
18:50:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Make the trees grow.
18:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, agora? (wrt that quote)
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18:50:43 <Vorpal> Ilari, depleeting what pool?
18:50:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How does that help?
18:50:56 <Vorpal> Ilari, the global one!?
18:51:20 <elliott> But it'll be a few months before we see the effects.
18:51:28 <Vorpal> then allocation really spiked the last week or two
18:51:32 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed I know that
18:51:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly.
18:51:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How does bonemeal help?
18:51:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, APNIC had some massive allocation requests recently.
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18:52:47 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, bonemeal makes trees and crops grow instantly. <-- really? How do you apply it then
18:53:02 <Vorpal> before or after I mean
18:53:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and you claimed it makes that blue stuff. How?
18:53:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How find bone.
18:53:38 <Vorpal> elliott, is it a bug or not?
18:53:40 <elliott> Also, it's called lapis lazuli.
18:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately: find skeleton. Wait 'till skeleton goes on fire.
18:54:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have no armour. That sounds scary.
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18:54:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just asking about that bonemeal -> lapis lazuli: is it done by making use of a bug or is it intended?
18:55:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you can answer if it is a bug or not without problems however.
18:55:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't see how it helps me if I knew if it was due to a bug or not
18:55:56 <Vorpal> besides, why is it a secret
18:56:33 <Vorpal> ah found it on youtube
18:56:41 <elliott> The terrain generator's improvements are wonderful.
18:56:54 <Vorpal> elliott, will it result in an edge towards current terrain?
18:57:03 <elliott> Unlikely, I don't think it's new.
18:57:23 <elliott> Take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/IVrIw.png
18:57:28 <elliott> I have no idea how far it goes.
18:57:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well I seen similar things before
18:58:05 <elliott> Biomes are still too tiny though.
18:59:51 <elliott> I think the cobble texture has been changed.
19:00:01 <elliott> The top of furnaces are now not the same as stone. :/
19:00:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it has been fixed (the bonemeal thingy) in the update today it seems. At least according to reddit.
19:01:59 <elliott> Jeb made this: http://i.imgur.com/a7uht.png
19:02:13 <elliott> Note how this update, which is cool and seems to have added almost no bugs, was made almost entirely by Jeb.
19:02:33 <elliott> And also increases performance by including the code improvements of a (supposedly frowned-upon) modder.
19:02:43 <elliott> We should all pray that Notch decides to retire immediately.
19:02:47 <j-invariant> Curiosity cam http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl#&utm_source=498663
19:02:51 <elliott> And leaves Minecraft to Jeb.
19:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, notch had decent ideas though.
19:03:17 <Vorpal> just poor at implementing them
19:03:19 <elliott> But he should never be allowed near code. Ever.
19:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, that I can agree on
19:03:35 <elliott> Also I think Notch ran out of ideas.
19:03:42 <elliott> Before this Jeb update, the game had been much the same for ages.
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19:07:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover: "Possbly due to an error, when Beta 1.2 came out trees that had already been created were re-created often with the same shape but more than one type of leaves, often all three."
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19:07:48 <Vorpal> elliott, is it this bug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K7BGI2Jq8E
19:08:07 <Vorpal> elliott, if it is then it is already out in the open
19:08:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not there at least.
19:08:48 <elliott> Yes. But HHI still has the power.
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19:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I got it from /r/minecraft, but anyway...
19:08:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you could have found it yourself?
19:09:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right, but we have the btter way.
19:09:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, found another way yourself? heh nice
19:09:25 <elliott> Bone meal is white dye. Why.
19:10:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you can combine it with coloured dyes to make light colour
19:10:43 <j-invariant> I've never seen anything like lapis lazuli in the wild
19:10:51 <elliott> j-invariant: lapis lazuli is ore, near redstone
19:10:51 <Vorpal> elliott, j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Wool_Dyes
19:10:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> OMG YOU CAN PAINT SHEEP <-- old
19:11:03 <Vorpal> I heard that yesterday
19:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott, this has been known since yesterday
19:11:23 <ais523> hmm, Haskell is too elegant to easily read
19:11:39 <ais523> it's like the accusations people make against Perl, except actually warranted
19:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, correct. But if you think that is the most important thing to repeat... sure go ahead
19:11:48 <elliott> I find Haskell easy to read
19:11:52 <ais523> it just says too much in too little a piece of code
19:12:04 <elliott> ais523: It's _slower_ to read, but you have _less_ to read.
19:12:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Perl is needlessly hard to read, while Haskell is actually terse for a reason.
19:12:12 <elliott> ais523: It's just more compact.
19:14:22 <elliott> Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT?
19:14:51 <pikhq> ais523: I find that Haskell is easy to read except when people are being *too* clever.
19:15:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WELL I WANT TO DO IT
19:15:13 <pikhq> ais523: The problem is, of course, is that some people are far too clever.
19:15:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: World editing plugin to clear 128x128x128 plus a bit, and then fill 128x128x127 with TNT, and detonate it.
19:15:28 <elliott> Come back a few hours later with tea, observe destruction.
19:15:31 <coppro> TNT is a lot to use one a server
19:15:36 <pikhq> ais523: Perl, on the other hand, is hard to read except when people are being careful.
19:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, servers do actually crash with less TNT than that.
19:16:00 <pikhq> Of course, it may just be that I find a monad-pipeline pretty clear.
19:16:30 <coppro> is like the greatest package ever
19:16:44 <elliott> ais523: hmm, it just occurred to me that there's probably a way to turn any container into an equivalent change structure
19:16:51 <elliott> ais523: as in, lists -> file changes; sets -> directory changes
19:17:10 <coppro> pikhq: TeX package that does unit formatting for you
19:17:43 <coppro> G = \SI{6.67e-11}{\meter\cubed\per\kilogram\per\second\squared}
19:17:48 <coppro> a bit verbose, but very legible
19:17:59 <coppro> the verbosity is optional iirc
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19:18:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: How resource-intensive is blowing up a 128x128x127 cube of TNT? <-- in what?
19:18:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, it has extensions.
19:18:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And AdBlock.
19:18:21 <Vorpal> elliott, or do you mean in number of TNT required
19:18:36 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what's the rough algorithm for turning a set of scapegoat changes into a graph so that it can be topologically sorted?
19:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea. But even something like a few hundred TNT could crash the server. Though iirc with 1.2 TNT was optimised a bit. Still I expect enough TNT will cause issues. No idea where the limit is.
19:20:39 <coppro> it's an awesome package
19:22:26 <j-invariant> so here's a tip; If you use shift to walk near the edge of a thing... even if you've stopped moving, letting go can make you fall
19:22:47 <elliott> you can walk off the edge of a lock with sneaking
19:23:09 <elliott> people off the edge of blocks while sneaking
19:23:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you don't.
19:25:53 <j-invariant> killing all the pigs is hard, oh I will try fishing!
19:26:20 <elliott> j-invariant: Set up a farm.
19:29:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm interesting: "This same principal applies to combining string to form a wool block and grabbing it with a dyed wool block!"
19:30:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess that is it :)
19:30:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or have you found a third way?
19:31:01 <elliott> graphFromEdges :: Ord key => [(node, key, [key])] -> (Graph, Vertex -> (node, key, [key]), key -> Maybe Vertex)
19:31:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so you have a third bug then?
19:32:07 <elliott> We could not possibly comment.
19:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott, dude this reveals nothing :P
19:32:42 <j-invariant> aw the fishing line can't stretch infinitely far
19:32:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and I was asking Phantom_Hoover not you
19:33:25 <Vorpal> j-invariant, did you plan something that needed that?
19:35:03 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/46k5O.png Redstone over Radio
19:35:34 <elliott> j-invariant: It's just an idea, of which there are billions.
19:35:41 <Vorpal> it is a decent one yes
19:35:55 <j-invariant> elliott: I think minecraft should have a system for adding new things like this to it, since everyone has their own ideas
19:36:05 <elliott> j-invariant: you want oklopol's game
19:36:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it's like drum material
19:36:22 <elliott> j-invariant: where every block has its own program in it
19:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, arguably that would be better for the music blocks instead
19:36:36 <elliott> j-invariant: and you play by programming blocks to be bots that mine for you and shit
19:36:49 <elliott> Vorpal: do you know what the eardrum is ...
19:36:55 <elliott> sound -> hide part vibrates -> stuff
19:36:57 <elliott> j-invariant: well he's working on it
19:36:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, but do you know what a speaker is?
19:37:24 <Vorpal> oh speaker could use paper there I guess
19:37:34 <Vorpal> most speaker membranes are paper afaik
19:37:56 <Vorpal> elliott, never took apart a loudspeaker?
19:38:06 <j-invariant> I need to get around to trying out that computer level
19:38:13 <j-invariant> I haven't tried anyone elese minecraft worlds yeet
19:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, paper is very common as the membrane. I can't promise that every speaker use it but all the ones I took apart have
19:38:48 <elliott> Vorpal: i see a market for audiophiles
19:39:16 <Vorpal> elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3.5_Inch_Speaker.jpg the black is rather thick paper
19:39:48 <elliott> Oh, I thought you meant paper-paper.
19:39:57 <elliott> Like, actual writing-style paper paper.
19:40:19 <elliott> You can hook a dispenser up to redstone, have the dispenser shoot an arrow at a wall of paintings with pressure plates underneath. The arrow knocks off the painting which hits a pressure plate and causes a continuation of the circuit.
19:40:20 <Vorpal> "The diaphragm is usually manufactured with a cone- or dome-shaped profile. A variety of different materials may be used, but the most common are paper, plastic, and metal."
19:40:24 <elliott> HHI Research must do this.
19:40:37 <Vorpal> elliott, this has been done in the craftbook mod
19:40:56 <elliott> HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation.
19:41:03 <elliott> The test will take place underneath Mount Vorpal, a very secure location.
19:41:16 <Vorpal> elliott, did you find that thing about the painting yourself?
19:41:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:41:36 <elliott> I Ctrl+V'd, which is obvious.
19:41:47 <Vorpal> elliott, no quotes around it
19:42:02 <Vorpal> elliott, why would it be that bad?
19:42:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD SPIDERS CLIMBING WALLS WAS A PLAYER SUGGESTION WHY
19:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> HHI Research will use it to blow up TNT, which will be an innovation. ← I feel that we need some other innovations.
19:42:29 <Vorpal> elliott, "oh noes" <-- why would forgetting quotes be that bad
19:42:54 <j-invariant> I hooked a creeper and pulled him towards me X)
19:43:29 <elliott> j-invariant: stupidest thing to do ever :D
19:43:33 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I don't see the invention in using this thing someone else did. Not saying using it is a bad idea at mt hoover or at the cube. But calling it innovation seems a bit wrong :P
19:44:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://foone.org/minecraft/death/
19:44:54 <Vorpal> cheater99, ask elliott for that link that notch left wide open due to incompetence (if it still works?)
19:45:06 <elliott> I don't service cheater99.
19:45:15 -!- cheater99 has changed nick to cheater98.
19:45:33 <Vorpal> elliott, right. I guess it is a HHI secret?
19:45:41 <elliott> Vorpal: No, cheater98 is just a twat.
19:45:48 <elliott> Anyone else want Minecraft?
19:46:09 -!- cheater98 has changed nick to chelliott.
19:46:58 <elliott> Yes, anyone can download minecraft.jar.
19:47:10 <elliott> He has S3 authentication tokens and whatnot set up but doesn't actually, you know, require them; you can just download the file.
19:47:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I mean, as in, bin/minecraft.jar.
19:47:25 <elliott> As in, Notch's incompetence lets anyone pirate the game direct from Mojang.
19:47:34 <chelliott> so if you download it can you play on public servers?
19:47:49 <pikhq> elliott: Consider myself curious.
19:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, I knew those chickens were up to something.
19:48:17 <elliott> That will always require purchase due to Mojang's DRM system.
19:48:59 <elliott> j-invariant: The servers check with minecraft.net to see if you're authenticated and purchased.
19:49:06 <elliott> There's no actual way around that other than the server being modded.
19:50:48 <chelliott> ( * chelliott pretends to care so that Phantom_Hoover and elliott actually think he's interested in playing minecraft with them, in order to do some "bonding", but doesn't really care deep down)
19:51:51 <elliott> j-invariant: Everyone knows our server, it's just that ineiros is technically the only person allowed to tell anyone and he's been away :P
19:51:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:52:07 <elliott> j-invariant: because you haven't bugged ineiros while he's been online.
19:52:25 <Vorpal> chelliott, you could find it in logs
19:52:40 <chelliott> Vorpal: but then, i don't get server :(
19:52:42 <j-invariant> well I might ask him because I want to see "The Cube"
19:52:43 <Vorpal> chelliott, grep them for http://.*minecraft.*
19:53:09 <elliott> j-invariant: It's, er, very under-construction.
19:53:11 <Vorpal> chelliott, iirc s3.amazon.com or whatever they call their service
19:53:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't fucking tell him.
19:53:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well you could start acting decently towards me
19:53:34 <elliott> Although I guess as long as he doesn't find the server it's okay.
19:53:39 <Vorpal> elliott, then I might care more for what you say
19:53:39 <chelliott> Vorpal: i am going to cry my eyes out and then curl up in an embrional position, bobbing back and forth, until the exhaustion makes me fall asleep.
19:54:00 <chelliott> i always wanted to see what it would be like to climb Mt. Vorpal :(
19:54:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
19:54:22 <Vorpal> chelliott, you can do single player. For multiplayer you obviously need to buy the game
19:54:41 <chelliott> Vorpal: don't you guys have a hacked multiplayer server?
19:54:45 <Vorpal> chelliott, anyway you can find the urls in the logs if you care for single player
19:54:49 <Vorpal> chelliott, no. not hacked
19:54:50 <chelliott> Vorpal: sounds like a fairly simple thing to do in fact
19:55:47 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, when do you plan to start acting decently towards me? Do you expect something for nothing?
19:55:59 <chelliott> Vorpal: i bet they're not even encrypted?
19:56:01 <quintopia> chelliott? the female portal-shooting equivalent of ehird?
19:56:20 <elliott> quintopia: cheater being a moron.
19:56:24 <elliott> chelliott: ineiros doesn't want non-purchasers on the server.
19:56:29 <elliott> chelliott: So that will never, ever happen.
19:56:47 <Vorpal> chelliott, what elliott said is true here
19:57:05 <Vorpal> coppro, you are right I guess.
19:57:06 <chelliott> Vorpal: but if someone were to set up a server, they could intercept it like that, right?
19:57:16 <Vorpal> chelliott, I don't see why you need to do that
19:57:16 <elliott> They could just use a mod that disables it ...
19:57:28 <chelliott> Vorpal: so that people without a bought mc can also play
19:57:37 <Vorpal> chelliott, ... read again please :P
19:57:48 <Vorpal> chelliott, and then read what elliott just said
19:58:03 <chelliott> oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says
19:58:04 <Vorpal> chelliott, no need to intercept. Just mod.
19:58:23 <Vorpal> <chelliott> oh, sorry, i mostly don't read what elliott says <-- sounds like a good idea in fact.
19:58:30 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, the S3 downloads don't work; you need to log in once before you can play.
19:58:43 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? didn't they work before?
19:58:47 <chelliott> Vorpal: we should set up a mega secret server then!
19:59:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:59:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you said they worked before? Anyway I believe faking a login is rather trivial.
19:59:32 <Vorpal> I looked at the decompiled launcher
19:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the enemy of your enemy is not your friend here.
19:59:46 <Vorpal> you could just mod it.
19:59:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, when did I claim it was.
20:00:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well then, why not ask a channel op about him?
20:01:22 <elliott> he manages to avoid outright trolling enough of the time that he goes under the radar.
20:01:29 <elliott> also, ops never do anything apart from kick shutup
20:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, they kickbanned spambots I know :P
20:02:08 <Vorpal> oh wait, that is what you said
20:02:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. The something for nothing thing applies to you too
20:02:53 <elliott> "Someone I don't like is saying these things, therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest are things I should NOT do, because I must prove that I am at least as childish as the people I call that!"
20:03:01 <elliott> You're well on your way, keep up the good work.
20:03:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see scrollback around last like coppro spoke
20:03:54 <Vorpal> "therefore the fact that they can reasonably demonstrate that the actions they recommend are in the channel's best interest" <-- so demonstrate it
20:04:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what I'm saying here is closer to "I don't trust your judgement.
20:04:59 <elliott> cheater has repeatedly demonstrated that not only does he have no interest or knowledge of esolangs,
20:05:18 <elliott> but he has repeatedly acted superior and idiotic to many people in this channel on many, many occasions, while having contributed not one iota of positive discussion to it.
20:05:38 <elliott> That he is an idiot can be trivially verified by reading the logs; that he annoys people who are not can be verified the same.
20:05:51 <elliott> All he does is waste people's time.
20:06:13 <Vorpal> fair enough on those points.
20:06:18 <j-invariant> chelliott: you should change your name back then
20:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, you should ignore him and starve him of the attention he so desperately craves.
20:07:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:07:19 <elliott> Brawndo! It's got what plants crave!
20:08:04 <chelliott> elliott: i have demonstrated i have no interest in knowing esolangs?
20:08:13 <chelliott> elliott: have you been drinking cillit bang again?
20:08:31 <elliott> You haven't really talked about esolangs once (you talked about Clue once, but then you started spinning some bullshit about it being a good business idea to oklopol or something).
20:08:41 <elliott> You also have no wiki presence
20:08:41 <chelliott> elliott: you're the kid here talking about computer games and ubuntu and mac laptops all the time
20:08:57 <Vorpal> okay so no one is on topic very much
20:08:57 <elliott> chelliott: I have repeatedly demonstrated that I have an interest in and knowledge of esolangs in the past.
20:08:58 <chelliott> we've got another one of elliott's attacks, everyone take cover
20:09:06 <chelliott> can we please have the restraining jacket
20:09:21 <chelliott> elliott: you forgot to run out and slam the door.
20:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, I am putting him on ignore. elliott, I will put you on ignore as well if you keep on engaging with him.
20:09:34 <chelliott> and scream "no one understands me"
20:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott, and you are socially incompetent
20:09:46 <elliott> "He's on to me, I'd better try and change the topic by being an idiot!"
20:09:54 <j-invariant> coppro: why don't you change you rname back?
20:10:00 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, where the fuck did you get that from?
20:10:06 <chelliott> j-invariant: oh right, well, i forgot about it
20:10:18 <Vorpal> elliott, from observing your general behaviour towards me and coppro for example.
20:10:20 <chelliott> j-invariant: then i read your comment, and then i read elliott's mental diarrhea, and had to reply to that first
20:10:28 -!- chelliott has changed nick to cheater777.
20:10:39 <j-invariant> now I hope you can stop fighting because I think it's upsetting elliot
20:10:49 <Vorpal> elliott, coppro is reasonably intelligent and he is interested in esolangs afaik
20:10:53 <cheater777> j-invariant: you've mixed up cause and effect
20:10:56 <elliott> Can I not yell at someone without it being construed as upset?
20:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: coppro is the one who has me on ignore.
20:11:06 <elliott> I do not have him on ignore.
20:11:17 <elliott> I have been rude to him lately because he keeps being a jerk mentioning how I'm on ignore all the time.
20:11:21 <Vorpal> cheater777, indeed, did I claim so?
20:11:38 <cheater777> Vorpal: just saying, it's a common typo.
20:11:54 <Vorpal> no. And now you are being annoying.
20:12:18 <cheater777> Phantom_Hoover: i think if you go to a page which has an rss feed you get an icon on the address bar... but i hadn't used chrome in ages now
20:12:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well how comes he ignored you?
20:12:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:12:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember there was indeed a very good reason
20:12:39 <SgeoN1> ^^distracting everyone from the war so they can talk about my liveblkgging nonsense
20:12:46 <cheater777> Vorpal: i'm not being annoying, i just thought you were talking about me and made a typo, just like j-invariant a couple minutes earlier. what's so annoying about that?
20:12:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I was there, it was a rhetorical question.
20:13:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Enjoy your regular whine-about-elliott rant alone.
20:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, as a sign of how desperate I am, please start liveblogging to your full capacity.
20:13:30 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? I don't really enjoy this discussion. And it is no rant.
20:13:51 <SgeoN1> I'm on my second to.last bus
20:14:17 <SgeoN1> I'm upset that I didn't see her today, butthrilldd for tomorrow
20:14:25 <Vorpal> elliott, still if you can't be decent towards me, then don't expect me to listen to your pleas
20:14:34 <SgeoN1> My hands are to cold to.type properly in this phone
20:14:52 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, can't you type with gloves on?
20:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1 is actually dying of cold somewhere in the frigid wastes of New York.
20:15:16 <SgeoN1> Vorpal, the. Us is warm, but my hands are still stiff
20:15:47 <Vorpal> SgeoN1, yes I'm sure parts of US is warm. Like Hawaii. But I suspect Alaska is rather cold.
20:15:55 <Vorpal> I wonder what the average temperature is
20:16:38 <SgeoN1> Maybe tomorrow I'll see her for more than the 1.5 hours I thought I'd see her today
20:16:43 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:17:02 <oklopol> hope i didn't interrupt anything important
20:17:13 <Vorpal> oklopol, indeed you didn't
20:17:15 <oklopol> that would be embarrassing
20:18:25 <SgeoN1> My toes ads still in pain
20:18:54 <oklopol> every period, when courses start, i have this really hard time doing homework because i'm afraid i just can't do it anymore
20:19:02 <oklopol> what if i've gotten old, and can't math anymore
20:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, things got so bad I had to get Sgeo to liveblog.
20:19:28 <j-invariant> oklopol: they give you homework that actualyl requires thinking? wow
20:19:30 <Vorpal> oklopol, I doubt that. How old are you?
20:20:22 <Vorpal> oklopol, it is very unlikely to happen until you are at least 40 I bet. And even then unlikely for many years
20:20:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:20:36 <oklopol> 2011 - 1989, so that means i turn 22 this year
20:20:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, anyway if you are around 20-25 then you are not getting too old yet
20:20:58 <Vorpal> oklopol, hey we are equally old (excluding month and day I guess)
20:21:01 <oklopol> okay, but what if i've just gotten totally rusty at math
20:21:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, did you just finish a course with math?
20:21:24 <oklopol> Vorpal: yes, i had an exam on monday
20:21:36 <Vorpal> oklopol, then you are unlikely to be rusty already
20:21:40 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, yes, but you have allowed your development to be retarded to the extent that you are effectively 14.
20:21:46 <Vorpal> oklopol, a year without math, then maybe
20:22:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, be fair. 15
20:22:12 <elliott> does anyone know how to make xchat ignore mentions of a name?
20:22:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As an ex-14-year-old, I take offence.
20:22:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use the python or perl scripting plugin
20:22:33 * Phantom_Hoover discovers that "hinterland" does not actually mean what he thought it meant.
20:22:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what did you think it meant?
20:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's clearly because you are an immature and stupid 15-year-old.
20:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age.
20:23:25 <oklopol> elliott is also homo and a nigger
20:24:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what did you think "hinterland" meant?
20:24:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm I thought that too. In a somewhat negative sense.
20:25:12 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean?
20:25:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh: "The hinterland is the land or district behind the borders of a coast or river. Specifically, by the doctrine of the hinterland, the word is applied to the inland region lying behind a port, claimed by the state that owns the coast. ..."
20:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Finland is, admittedly, not the standard location for crofting, but I am assuming that it's sufficiently similar to the Highlands to be used for the purpose.
20:27:01 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> You have no understanding of the deeper meaning of things, unlike those of us who are fortunate enough to have the wisdom of age. <-- wait, aren't you younger than elliott even?
20:27:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from elliott iirc.
20:27:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, more mature, I don't dispute that
20:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly that lie is just his vast immaturity showing through.
20:27:38 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover must be at least 20
20:28:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, recommended reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crofting
20:28:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, no I don't think so. Could be older than elliott yes.
20:28:48 <oklopol> well yeah maybe closer to 20
20:28:58 <Vorpal> oklopol, more like 16-20
20:29:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but yeah I thought elliott said you were 12 or 13?
20:29:30 <oklopol> the reason for my guess was the similarity to pikhq
20:29:36 <oklopol> i don't know where i get that from
20:29:53 <oklopol> otherwise i might've guessed he's overcompensating for his age
20:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, there was a complicated accident with a relativistic spaceship and I aged 3 years.
20:30:09 <oklopol> by being careful about what he says
20:30:34 <oklopol> i actually think a penis hours about what i'm gonna say before hand
20:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It was pretty obvious that I was less than 18, what with me mentioning school all the time
20:31:11 <oklopol> oh i don't actually listen to the *content*
20:31:20 <oklopol> i just read the tone of voice of all you
20:31:35 <Vorpal> oklopol, tone of voice over IRC? :D
20:31:50 <oklopol> yeah you know, punctuation
20:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Reminds me of that Pratchett character who pronounced brackets.
20:32:21 <oklopol> that's all i see, dots and uppercase vs lowercase
20:32:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm yes. What was his name? And which book was it?
20:32:48 <oerjan> theory: complaints about immaturity are _always_ hypocritical. no exceptions.
20:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly you must start the Finnish crofting foundation.
20:33:06 <oklopol> maturity is a silly concept
20:33:20 <oerjan> even when said as joke.
20:33:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I thought it happened in Discworld too?
20:33:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, some lawyer or something? Probably wee free men or such?
20:33:51 <oerjan> note: above comment is hypocritical.
20:34:17 <elliott> ais523: I got topographic sorting of changes working, at least
20:34:40 <oklopol> elliott: topographic sorting is trivial, please try to grow up.
20:34:57 <elliott> i didn't actually impl the topographic sorting, just got it working on this structure :p
20:34:57 <oklopol> or use a fucking php function script kiddo
20:35:06 <elliott> lol@ implication that php has tsort
20:35:13 <elliott> too complicated to implement!
20:35:19 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/cGcj pretty this please
20:35:37 <elliott> wish haskell let me do "f x x" for "f x x' | x == x'" :(
20:35:42 <oklopol> i haven't checked this, but i imagine from the millions of php functions, you can actually never find any algorithms you need for your basic stuff
20:36:11 <oklopol> unless you're doing something stupid like web stuff
20:36:30 <oklopol> elliott: oklotalk lets you do that
20:36:59 <elliott> oklopol: impl http://sprunge.us/cGcj in oklotalk please
20:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I want to know how Scapegoat works. Please give me basic direction on where to look for Git help.
20:37:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i dunno, ask ais523
20:38:15 <j-invariant> so when where the three differen types of tree introduced?
20:38:38 <j-invariant> then the minecraft world is not all generated when you start a new game
20:38:55 <elliott> j-invariant: Considering it's practically infinite, of course not :P
20:39:15 <elliott> Except that sometimes the function changes half-way through evaluation and you get biome discontinuities!
20:39:20 <elliott> j-invariant: It has been proved much earlier.
20:39:26 <elliott> j-invariant: ALSO, all trees regenerated with the update.
20:39:33 <elliott> Normally you wouldn't see the new type.
20:39:37 <elliott> Until venturing out into new terrain.
20:40:22 <j-invariant> is "Combinatorial Algorithms" any good? (Donald Knuth)
20:41:54 <j-invariant> # 7.9. Herculean tasks (aka NP-hard problems)
20:43:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw NOTHIN' TO REPORT TODAY JUUUUUUUD
20:45:19 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/eS9fx.jpg BEST EVER
20:45:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:45:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I will never forgive Jeb for taking up bluestone for lapis POOPLI.
20:46:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "Lapis lazuli" is objectively the coolest name for anything ever.
20:46:23 <elliott> "I want there to be some secret conspiracy where you can make a portal out of Lapis Lazuli blocks and get into heaven."
20:46:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Heaven portals. Fuckin' DISCUSS.
20:47:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sand falls, but cloudstone RISES.
20:47:30 <elliott> You have to put stuff above it to stop it going above level 127 and evaporating.
20:47:34 <elliott> (Canon: It becomes cloud.)
20:47:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Putting cloudstone below sand makes an explosion, naturally.
20:47:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Or just swaps them.)
20:48:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f20n0/efficiency_of_making_coal_instead_of_mining_coal/
20:49:19 <j-invariant> elliott: the CPU level for minecraft is a whole load of .dat files, but in ~/.minecraft/saves it's all categorized into folders
20:49:42 <elliott> j-invariant: you have to put it in a world directory
20:50:07 <j-invariant> eah but World1 has folders like 0,1,1c etc
20:50:09 <elliott> j-invariant: or do you mean the 0/ 1/ 1c/ etc. folders?
20:50:15 <elliott> j-invariant: put the dat files in anyway, i think it'll auto-convert
20:52:28 <elliott> ais523: I have individual change application and changeset application, what do you suggest I add next? I already have merging, right? since it's based into change application
20:52:42 <oerjan> elliott: you might want some more @'s in apply to share the tuples from the original line. also .Set.map needs a space after the .
20:53:13 <elliott> oerjan: no, it doesn't, actually
20:53:17 <elliott> but good catch, it should have one
20:53:27 <elliott> and yeah, OK, I'll add more @s
20:53:33 <oerjan> "needs" in the pretty sense here
20:54:35 <oerjan> well alas i don't know how to solve your ugly =='s problem
20:55:16 <oklopol> so umm, server hasn't been updated or anything?
20:55:16 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/HIHO it's better now, thanks, but apply is still pretty ugly
20:55:36 <elliott> oerjan: the ==s aren't even the ugliest part, probably
20:55:37 <oklopol> okay, just heard something about some new stuff
20:55:51 <elliott> oerjan: it's just that every case is very very similar
20:55:58 <elliott> oerjan: and it irritates me that i can't fix the duplication
20:56:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dear god. Do they ... hurt more like that?
20:56:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm still scared. Especially because of the door opening.
20:56:44 <elliott> It's like, HI I NOTICED YOU, SO TAKE A LOOK AT HELL.
20:57:13 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
20:57:34 <elliott> @hoogle (a->b-> m b) -> b -> [a] -> m b
20:57:35 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldrM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b
20:57:35 <lambdabot> Control.Monad zipWithM_ :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m c) -> [a] -> [b] -> m ()
20:57:35 <lambdabot> Control.Monad foldM :: Monad m => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> [b] -> m a
20:58:41 <elliott> oerjan: is my ordering function inefficient? I use the changes themselves as the keys
20:59:30 <j-invariant> at least I managed not to destroy my own saved game
21:00:21 <elliott> i'll use that for the keys i guess
21:03:47 * Sgeo wonders if anyone plays in WorldForge
21:04:13 <elliott> oerjan: ugh, I can't use integers as the keys, because deps returns [Change]
21:04:20 <elliott> and changes don't know about their list indices obviously
21:04:54 <Sgeo> http://worldforge.org/dev/metaserver
21:05:02 <Sgeo> There's 21 clients on one of the servers
21:07:00 <oerjan> elliott: i'm not one to ask about efficiency optimization
21:08:32 <oerjan> elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line
21:12:40 <oerjan> copumpkin: i don't think so, i just happened to read a reddit mc thread in which allowing mushroom farming was suggested
21:14:48 <oerjan> it was pointed out that allowing this would make some other foods essentially useless
21:23:06 <j-invariant> I thought it would be in the trillions by now
21:24:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:24:26 <oklopol> http://omnium-gatherum.appspot.com/pages/tile.html
21:24:30 <oklopol> do you think this is trivial?
21:25:15 <Vorpal> 62% packet loss to ineiros :/
21:25:30 <Vorpal> that seems to be what cause the lag in general
21:27:13 <oklopol> i think it's periodic, although i already closed my solution
21:28:20 <oklopol> actually took me quite a while because i figured it's aperiodic
21:28:28 <oklopol> because of "convince yourself"
21:29:27 <oklopol> also what's the smallest period you can get
21:29:33 <oklopol> i think i have the smallest possible
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21:37:37 <elliott> <oerjan> elliott: interesting i think most of your apply guards are equivalent to deps c `isPrefixOf` map fst line
21:37:40 <elliott> oerjan: oh that's intriguing
21:37:55 <elliott> <j-invariant> Minecraft: More than 500 sold <-- WTF???
21:37:58 <elliott> j-invariant: it's 1 million
21:38:35 <elliott> oerjan: do you think abusing that would be evil? :)
21:38:49 <elliott> oerjan: the thing is that i'd have to pattern-match anyway, so it would just be weird... but i could do it as a subfunction
21:39:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
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21:40:27 <elliott> oerjan: btw trying to replace or delete SOF/EOF should also be disallowed, but
21:44:09 <oklopol> j-invariant: periodic? what period?
21:44:47 <elliott> oerjan: omg, it's insanely nice
21:44:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:03 <oklopol> and how many of each block do you use
21:45:21 <elliott> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/NKJI
21:45:31 <elliott> oerjan: Now you tell me why that's incorrect :P
21:45:53 <elliott> hm that erroneously accepts SOF/EOF as a change but whatever
21:46:15 <oklopol> actually given the symmetry of the blocs, neither of those tells me much
21:46:34 <oklopol> except maybe that great minds think alike
21:49:01 * Phantom_Hoover vaguely remembers reading somewhere that Red Dwarf survived in the BBC because the director general thought it was mocking SF, but can't remember where he heard it.
21:49:49 <elliott> ah well it's broken so far
21:51:07 <elliott> oerjan: so hey, what structures are Changes and [Line]s :D
21:51:57 <elliott> i rely on oerjan to do all my thinking for me
21:52:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:52:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The BBC is so strange.
21:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the times fit too, since it was airing while Doctor Who was being cancelled.
21:55:21 <oerjan> elliott: Functors in String, probably
21:55:44 <elliott> oerjan: are they APPLICATIVE functors?!!?!!!!!
21:56:23 <j-invariant> oklopol: it has period 3 horizontally and period 4 vertically (with a shift of 1 block horizontally)
21:56:55 <j-invariant> I wonder if there is a tiling with rotational symmetry
21:56:56 <oerjan> elliott: sounds awkward
21:57:14 <elliott> oerjan: i just want to be a pseudomathematician and reek, like all haskellers are known to do
21:57:23 <elliott> oerjan: sorry i forgot: also i want to be part of a cargo cult
21:57:26 <elliott> so please give me structures that it is
21:57:30 <elliott> even if i have to break the laws of those structures
21:57:41 <j-invariant> elliott: someone said "cargomorphism" in #haskell and got banned
21:57:54 <elliott> j-invariant: are you sure they were banned for _just_ that :p
21:58:06 <j-invariant> but it was the last straw on the camels back
21:58:13 <elliott> j-invariant: was it that guy talking about a basic program
21:58:19 <elliott> and clearly i can't do it simply in haskell
21:58:33 <oerjan> elliott: you probably want the Changeset case to be before the general one. could also put an SOF test there i think
21:58:37 <elliott> #haskell used to be such a nice channel, but haskell's recent surge in popularity hasn't done it good :(
21:59:16 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool
21:59:24 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => a -> [a] -> Bool
21:59:34 <elliott> @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c))
21:59:34 <lambdabot> ap ((||) . elem SOF . deps) (elem EOF . deps)
21:59:47 <elliott> @pl (\c -> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)) c
21:59:48 <lambdabot> elem SOF (deps c) || elem EOF (deps c)
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22:01:08 <oerjan> elliott: strictly speaking SOF and EOF shouldn't be allowed in the deps of a Change, should they?
22:01:19 <j-invariant> heh someone on MO posted "question which, I suppose, is as easy as abc for an expert"
22:01:21 <elliott> oerjan: (Insert "hello" SOF EOF)
22:01:28 <elliott> oerjan: that inserts the line "hello" into the empty file
22:01:40 <elliott> oerjan: remember that it's blame-based: you insert things in-between _changes_
22:01:44 <oerjan> elliott: so Insert is an exception...
22:01:44 <elliott> and a line is identified by the change that created it
22:02:06 <elliott> oerjan: I have a feeling this SOF/EOF thing is crufty and could be improved, but ais at least hasn't thought of anything better
22:02:28 <oklopol> j-invariant: i have period (4, 1)
22:02:46 <oklopol> yeah okay you explained both periods
22:03:07 <oklopol> i just gave the bigger one, i think we have the same one then
22:03:19 <j-invariant> oklopol: it may be the smallest tiling then
22:03:31 <j-invariant> elliott: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/52116/quadratic-forms-without-common-zeroes
22:04:22 <oklopol> what's a quadratic form :P
22:04:33 <oklopol> somehow i feel like i should remember the def
22:04:45 <oerjan> Ahoalton: esoteric programming languages. except we're almost never on topic
22:04:56 <j-invariant> I should invent an esoteric programming language
22:05:01 <elliott> Ahoalton: spiritualism, mysticism, and magick! note: lies
22:05:11 <elliott> we're actually a figment of your imagination
22:05:26 <oerjan> Ahoalton: otherwise, anything weird from programming or sometimes math
22:06:01 <elliott> we're basically one big family that's constantly fighting and wishing certain members would die
22:06:06 <elliott> having a constant christmas reunion
22:06:13 <elliott> and pretending to like each other
22:06:24 <oerjan> elliott: hey we're not _that_ bad
22:06:35 <elliott> oerjan: well we wouldn't be, if only Vorpal choked on his own vomit!
22:06:37 <Ahoalton> what are esoteric programming languages?
22:06:51 <elliott> Ahoalton: ones that you wouldn't want to actually, you know, use
22:07:22 <oklopol> j-invariant: quadratic form on F^5 means you have a quadratic form in 5 variables?
22:07:56 <elliott> Ahoalton: mathematica is the buggiest, slowest piece of rubbish ever
22:08:09 <oklopol> i used to use it when i had integration in my courses
22:08:41 <oklopol> but i don't need that shit anymore so i don't really use mathematica either
22:08:49 <oklopol> j-invariant: i don't think that would be abc for an expert
22:09:08 <oklopol> i may be wrong ofc, but that seems like a nontrivial prob
22:09:23 <elliott> Ahoalton: we have a guy in here that wolfram gave $25,000 to and even he hates mathematica :D
22:09:28 <j-invariant> oklopol: it's a (consequence of a) really neat theorem
22:09:35 <Ahoalton> which version elliott it got better
22:09:42 <elliott> Ahoalton: no it didn't, this was with 7
22:09:44 <j-invariant> oklopol: The Chevally-Warning thing, the proof is pretty easy
22:09:50 <j-invariant> oklopol: (I mean to read... not to come up with)
22:09:57 <elliott> Ahoalton: i'm referring to the winner of http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html who is ais523 in here
22:10:09 <oklopol> j-invariant: i thought that was a *warning* for when he starts proving the thing :D
22:10:17 <oerjan> Ahoalton: warning, elliott is the resident channel cynic
22:10:19 <elliott> Ahoalton: the wolfram guys gave him some mathematica code that reimplemented his submitted Perl, and it made mathematica crash, as in a segfault
22:10:31 <elliott> oerjan: hey now, the fact that mathematica sucks is well-known :)
22:10:33 <oerjan> although some others seem to be converting
22:10:46 <oerjan> elliott: i'm speaking generally here
22:10:59 <oklopol> j-invariant: i guess i just don't know anything about multivariate stuff
22:11:03 <elliott> Ahoalton: warning, oerjan is the resident channel superstitious guy
22:11:08 <elliott> oerjan: speaking generally!
22:11:17 <j-invariant> oklopol: http://math.uga.edu/~pete/4400ChevalleyWarning.pdf
22:11:34 <j-invariant> oklopol: and the EGZ theorem is super cool
22:12:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:21 <fizzie> I used to write down maths homework half the time in LaTeX, the other half in a Mathematica notebook. It wasn't that bad for that, and at least you had it open for checking things.
22:12:37 <elliott> j-invariant: answer his question!
22:13:11 <quintopia> perhaps dropping my pronouns around you people is a bad idea
22:13:19 <elliott> Ahoalton: you're on DIALUP?
22:13:23 <oklopol> are you a spane or something
22:13:25 <quintopia> sorry for being lazy but i am@typing on my phone so...
22:13:37 <quintopia> also i found out i can do it with gloves on
22:14:23 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe Level3 just already ran out of IP addresses and started reusing dialup-named ones.
22:14:27 <quintopia> i need both hands wide open to rub my penis
22:14:39 <j-invariant> quintopia: If you have a collection of n different numbers, there is a subset of size <= 2n which sums to 0 (mod n)
22:15:11 <oklopol> j-invariant: isn't that a bit too much on the safe side?
22:15:12 <elliott> so hey oerjan change the model so that insert isn't a special case :
22:15:24 <Ahoalton> how do you know my connection elliott
22:15:27 <fizzie> (It's in their old 4.0.0.0/8 net, so you can't really tell much from the address.)
22:15:32 <elliott> Ahoalton: it's in your /whoi
22:15:38 <elliott> * [Ahoalton] (IceChat09@dialup-4.249.228.55.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net): The Chat Cool People Use
22:16:20 <oklopol> so umm how about 1 n/2 times
22:16:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:16:27 <elliott> unless you like, use gopher
22:16:39 <Ahoalton> I can do everything but watch videos
22:16:44 <quintopia> oklopol: you need n different numbers in the multiset
22:16:58 <elliott> Ahoalton: like the web except usable on dialup and also useless
22:17:21 <Ahoalton> uhh, no I use firefox and the normal internet with noscript and adblock
22:17:26 <oklopol> so just take any number n times?
22:17:34 <oklopol> can someone state the problem without errors?
22:17:35 <elliott> Ahoalton: right, so loading google.com prolly only takes you about 4 minutes?
22:17:47 <Ahoalton> and I can even torrent, if not slowly a
22:18:21 <fizzie> Google's rather bandwith-optimized, for obvious reasons.
22:18:23 <elliott> i can't imagine torrenting anything on dialup
22:18:23 <quintopia> oklopol: i assume it is in the linked paper
22:18:54 <elliott> oerjan: hey i can do a HACK
22:18:58 <elliott> oerjan: | dps == [SOF} || dps == [EOF]
22:19:02 <elliott> oerjan: since non-Insert deps lists are only one long
22:19:10 <quintopia> elliott: they don't call them torrents.
22:19:12 -!- Ahoalton has left (?).
22:19:22 <elliott> yay, another newbie scared away
22:19:29 <elliott> at least that one didn't know what esolangs are
22:20:41 <elliott> he just came in and then asked how the hell he got here
22:20:44 <elliott> and then defended mathematica
22:20:46 <fizzie> Anyway, dialup's not *that* slow, I think I used to get something like 30-40 kbps from the theoretically-56k connection.
22:20:46 <oklopol> there was no n/2 i suppose
22:20:47 <elliott> and asked what esolangs are
22:21:01 <fizzie> elliott: And then you ANNOYED him away.
22:21:12 <elliott> fizzie: he said YA'LL, not ELLIOTT
22:21:18 <elliott> i blame quintopia personally
22:21:27 <Ilari> Hmm... Hash function that blows up if you feed 65536YiB to it in one message... Meh.
22:21:31 <fizzie> It was the non-royal ya'll, meaning "you", in this particular case "just you".
22:21:36 <elliott> Ilari: Oh no, how horrible :P
22:21:51 <elliott> fizzie: The non-royal ya'll... the most USELESS WORD EVER
22:22:03 <elliott> The only purpose of y'all existing is to be a plural you :P
22:22:39 <oerjan> if all y'all think that, elliott
22:22:41 <Deewiant> ya'll is short for "ya will" i.e. "you will"
22:22:58 <elliott> Deewiant: True, I will indeed are annoying at some point.
22:23:44 <j-invariant> 22:24 < oerjan> if all y'all think that, elliott
22:23:51 <fizzie> Ilari: That compares favorably to SHA-1/SHA-2, which both have a maximum message length of 2^64-1 bits, i.e. 2 EiB (minus one bit).
22:23:57 <elliott> j-invariant: STOP COPYING OUR MESSAGES
22:24:22 <fizzie> (Well, SHA-256 variant of SHA-2; SHA-512 has 2^128-1 bits.)
22:24:24 <oklopol> (although it is certainly obvious floor(n/2) works)
22:25:14 <elliott> oerjan: hey why isn't there a name for foldr . reverse (modulo making that correct)
22:25:38 <elliott> oerjan: i.e. if i have a list of changes [a,b,c,d] and a must come before b, b must come before c, etc., then the right thing is "foldrM apply xs (reverse listOfChanges)"
22:25:41 <elliott> j-invariant: er not really?
22:26:26 <elliott> > foldl (flip f) end [a,b,c,d]
22:26:31 <elliott> > foldl (flip f) x [a,b,c,d]
22:26:44 <oklopol> j-invariant: is n/2 optimal?
22:26:59 <j-invariant> oklopol: well the theorem says you have 2n-1 things, and there is a subsequence of size at most n
22:27:13 <j-invariant> oklopol: if it's optimal it will be optimal on oen of the prime numbers
22:27:58 <oerjan> elliott: looks like one of the rare possible uses for foldl rather than foldl'
22:28:06 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
22:28:07 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
22:28:20 <elliott> oerjan: i guess it might be marginally more efficient
22:28:22 <oerjan> elliott: non-strictness
22:28:25 <elliott> oerjan: if a change overwrites another change?
22:28:46 <oerjan> elliott: oh well then maybe you want foldl' anyhow
22:28:55 <elliott> oerjan: well i just wonder why you think foldl would help
22:29:16 <oerjan> elliott: well i mean for that foldr ... . reverse thing in general
22:29:30 <Ilari> Not to mention that hashing even a 1PiB in single message would take a fast computer with a fast hash algorithm about 24 days...
22:29:34 <elliott> oerjan: foldl' just makes me feel bad in general
22:29:38 <elliott> oerjan: actually so does foldl
22:29:52 <elliott> oerjan: note that in this case it's _actually_ foldM
22:29:55 <elliott> oerjan: because applies can fail
22:30:07 <elliott> oerjan: so I think it's already the equivalent of foldl'
22:30:10 <lambdabot> foldM f a (x:xs) = f a x >>= \fax -> foldM f fax xs
22:30:36 <Sgeo> elliott, in your opinion, does making a language easier to implement make it worth crippling the language?
22:30:50 <Sgeo> Erm, by easier, I think he means nicer
22:31:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Well, unless it's to make a theoretical model.
22:31:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Who, what language, and what crippling?
22:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You want a language to use, not to stare at the interpreter.
22:31:22 <Sgeo> http://raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/atomo/today.txt
22:31:30 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:31:38 <elliott> Sgeo: Another exception: Toy languages like Atomo.
22:31:57 <elliott> Sgeo: i.e., if you're just exploring the design space, you can do whatever.
22:32:03 <elliott> And generally implementation ease wins out there.
22:32:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *turned up in my head, and I want to know what it's supposed to mean.
22:32:34 <Sgeo> Am I misinterpreting what he's saying?
22:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: hm yeah it's foldl' except in the rare case where you can deduce a Nothing as the result from only the outer part of it
22:32:48 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't know, I don't know Atomo.
22:33:19 <elliott> oerjan: can you make ais appear here
22:33:23 <elliott> i need to ask him qs about scapegoat!
22:33:23 <Sgeo> He removed the ability to change an object's delegate so that the implementation becomes much nicer
22:33:33 <fizzie> Ilari: How did you arrive to that number? Because I went by Skein, which reportedly does 500 GiB/s on a 3.1 GHz x64 Core 2 Duo, and that gives 1*1024*1024/0.5/60/60/24 ~ 24.27, which is suspiciously similar.
22:33:36 <oerjan> elliott: or wait, the definition of foldM makes that foldl' for Maybes
22:33:49 <elliott> Sgeo: If changing delegates is a Bad Thing to do anyway, then it's a good decision.
22:33:54 <elliott> Sgeo: I suspect it is a bad decision.
22:34:09 <fizzie> (500 gigabytes/sec would be pretty impressive.)
22:34:34 <Sgeo> http://files.slatelanguage.org/doc/pmd/talk.pdf argues that the ability to change delegates is a very, very good thing
22:34:51 <Sgeo> Store a piece of state as "which ancestor" instead of as a slot on the object
22:35:17 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: no, he wrote another toy language, "Atomy", with a much simpler model for objects, then backported the changes
22:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Goddamn it, why are there no Linux browsers with built-in PDF readers.
22:35:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Its built-in reader renders text really badly though.
22:35:54 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, uh?
22:36:00 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
22:36:15 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i see no evidence for that
22:37:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: considering that his github has no atomy repo, and you haven't provided any sort of evidence at all, I don't see why I should
22:37:08 <elliott> did he tell you that, or osmething?
22:37:10 <Mathnerd314> elliott: https://bitbucket.org/alex/atomy/
22:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> When I click on links to PDFs, it downloads as normal.
22:37:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: by chrome, do you mean Debian's chromium package?
22:37:37 <elliott> I bet it doesn't come with the pdf reader
22:37:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's a bad reader though, I don't recommend it, text is really ugly
22:37:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, it's fairly outdated I think.
22:38:03 <elliott> Since Chrome gets updated roughly every millisecond.
22:38:12 <elliott> (Silently, and automatically, like Minecraft!)
22:38:27 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:38:38 <elliott> just providin' a data point
22:39:23 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how to most effectively compress music to fit in MC music circuits.
22:39:32 <quintopia> (and a beard but that is irrelevant)
22:39:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh my god, let's wire one up to the CPU.
22:39:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT MUST BE DONE
22:39:50 * oerjan likes the occasional beer but hasn't had one for months
22:40:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, have you *seen* the time that thing takes per iteration?
22:40:24 <quintopia> if you would promise not to swat me
22:40:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'D BE A VERY SLOW SONG
22:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do the rendition of the Lincolnshire Poacher heard on the numbers station of the same name.
22:40:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It creeps me out. Like a creeper.
22:40:43 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't like beer _that_ much
22:40:56 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Well, we're talking note-level. <-- some MIDI?
22:40:59 <Ilari> fizzie: I used bit higher clock rate (i7 can have one) and 6 clocks per byte.
22:41:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, make it activated by a pressure plate, and surround your house with them, so that when a creeper steps on them, it plays it.
22:41:10 <Sgeo> Has people smelling clean sheets, then narrator says they were washed 7 days ago
22:41:16 <Sgeo> How is that interesting?/
22:41:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, though a different scheme is probably better
22:41:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poacher.ogg
22:41:24 <Sgeo> Sure, maybe after 7 days of regular use, etc.
22:42:09 <quintopia> sgeo: it's a commentary on people who like the smell of sweat
22:42:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:45:20 <fizzie> Ilari: Well, Skein is also described a 6.1 clocks/byte; does something else do 6?
22:46:21 <Ilari> Some other implementation reportedly did 5.99.
22:48:10 <fizzie> quintopia: It's one of the SHA-3 contest hash functions.
22:48:53 <fizzie> I feel tempted to say "Schneier's one", but it *does* have other authors, and I don't want to slight them.
22:49:12 <quintopia> speaking of contests, I haven't checked up on the netflix prize in almost a year....
22:49:36 <fizzie> Didn't they already award it to someone?
22:49:48 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
22:50:05 <quintopia> i dunno. like i said...haven't checked
22:50:44 <fizzie> "On September 18, 2009, Netflix announced team "BellKor's Pragmatic Chaos" as the prize winner, and the prize was awarded to the team in a ceremony on September 21, 2009.[22] "The Ensemble" team had in fact succeeded to match BellKor's result, but since BellKor submitted their results 20 minutes earlier, the rules award the prize to them."
22:50:51 <fizzie> What a dramatic moment.
22:52:55 <quintopia> well i assume they have implemented that algorithm on their servers now
22:52:57 <fizzie> "In the past few months, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) asked us how a Netflix Prize sequel might affect Netflix members' privacy, and a lawsuit was filed by KamberLaw LLC pertaining to the sequel."
22:52:58 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:53:04 <fizzie> "In light of all this, we have decided to not pursue the Netflix Prize sequel that we announced on August 6, 2009."
22:53:23 <fizzie> I think I remember reading about the lawsuit, but not that they decided to cancel the new competition.
22:53:44 <quintopia> as i recall, all their test data were anonymouse
22:53:54 <fizzie> Well, anonymized to some degree.
22:54:01 <fizzie> It's always arguable how much of that can be done.
22:54:02 <quintopia> why would the sequel dompromise privacy'
22:54:25 <fizzie> They were worried about the first contest already.
22:54:37 <fizzie> Some people identified particular users by cross-correlating against IMDB ratings.
22:54:48 <quintopia> anonymized inasmuch as they removed all references to actual people and randomize some of the data
22:55:34 <fizzie> "The ratings of less-popular films, coupled with the dates they're rated, form a kind of movie-preference fingerprint that can be used to make matches, the researchers concluded."
22:56:03 <fizzie> They can't add too much random noise before their data set goes too far from the real data for sensible algorithm evaluation and such.
22:56:09 <quintopia> oh shit. ghey can find out what movies people like!
22:56:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:57:04 <pikhq> So. Minecraft is really, really, really addictive.
22:57:22 <fizzie> I think also Netflix people may have said in their Terms that they won't tell other people what they're renting.
22:57:27 <elliott> pikhq: You've had it for, what, 3 hours? :P
22:57:40 <pikhq> elliott: Guess how long I've been playing it!
22:57:58 <elliott> 04:39:30 <j-invariant> does the minecraft world wrap around?
22:57:58 <elliott> 04:39:37 <j-invariant> ilke a donus
22:58:02 <j-invariant> this reminds me, I should be playing minecraft
22:58:05 <elliott> j-invariant: dunno, why not walk to the edge and find out :D
22:58:16 <pikhq> elliott: You are an evil man.
22:58:17 <j-invariant> elliott: I thought I hade looped but turns out I just went in a circle
22:58:28 <elliott> j-invariant: it has 4x the surface area of the earth
22:58:34 <elliott> j-invariant: you will nevereverever find the edgee
22:58:44 <elliott> if you walked for real-world years constantly ... still no
22:59:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah then it'd just lag forever
22:59:08 <fizzie> elliott: Don't they always say 8x?
22:59:09 <j-invariant> one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC
22:59:47 <elliott> j-invariant: btw re: source code, minecraft is "open" in that decompiling java produces something almost identical to the original code minus variable names, and there's a bunch of batch files (apparently with a shell script version) that deobfuscate most of the class, variable and method names
22:59:50 <elliott> and you can use this for modding
22:59:58 <elliott> 05:21:47 <fizzie> 4.27 m/s, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Transportation
23:00:02 <elliott> fizzie: Scale that to the Minecraft day.
23:00:05 <j-invariant> elliott: geez he should just release the code :P
23:00:07 <elliott> fizzie: i.e., 20 minutes vs. 24 hours
23:00:24 <elliott> j-invariant: Yeah, well, Asteroids II will come with full Amber source code.
23:01:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the days are 20 minutes
23:01:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sunrise/set are 1.5 each.
23:01:37 <fizzie> And dusk/dawn are the other 3.
23:01:37 <elliott> See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Day/night_cycle.
23:01:48 <elliott> <j-invariant> one thing which sucks is I can't leave minecraft running the background while I am here on IRC
23:02:01 <elliott> fizzie: Phantom_Hoover: Gem from that page: "Actual time of Sunset will not change if the texture for the sun is changed. The day/night cycle will be the same length with the same effects even if the sun is visibly larger or smaller."
23:03:38 <j-invariant> I wish you could put a collar around animals so they don't disappear
23:03:48 <elliott> ubuntu is getting really great lately
23:03:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well that doesn't seem too insane really. Maybe texture packs should be able to provide a parameter for it
23:04:18 <elliott> This option has shown up in the 0.2.2_01 release.
23:04:18 <elliott> true - the server will behave like The Nether; red sky, zombie pigmen and ghasts spawning. The map will stay the same, however, so don't set this flag if you don't want pigmen stomping all over your flower garden.
23:04:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can get red sky, zombie pigmen, and ghasts on a normal map.
23:04:31 <elliott> That would be ... so amazing
23:04:41 <elliott> Server checks connecting players against minecraft's account database. Only set this to false if your server is not connected to the Internet. Hackers with fake accounts can connect if this is set to false!
23:04:42 <elliott> true - Enabled. The server will assume it has an Internet connection and check every player.
23:04:43 <elliott> false - Disabled. The server will not attempt to check connecting players.
23:04:45 <elliott> You don't even need a mod.
23:05:02 <Vorpal> of course not. But to provide any level of security you do
23:05:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's in server.properties, at least.
23:05:18 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Server.properties
23:05:35 <elliott> 05:25:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: He wanted to be the guy who's been furthest away from spawn, so I was computerizing how much walking would it take to get to (100k,100k).
23:05:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, online-mode would allow me to log in as you and dump your inventory in one of my chests for example. And that thing has been around for ages.
23:05:39 <elliott> oklopol: me and Phantom_Hoover have been there.
23:05:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think that's new.
23:06:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Jeb still WORKS FOR NOTCH and ostensibly agrees with his main opinions.
23:07:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And didn't veto the switch from git to svn.
23:07:05 <fizzie> elliott: Well, 4.27 blocks/IRL-second → 4.27/72 game-metres/game-second → 213.5 metres/hour. Okay, that's not a very fast walk.
23:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: You have verified my theory that everything in the Minecraft world is really, really slow and we just view it from a zoom lens.
23:07:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:08:23 <Vorpal> elliott, but you hate git now...?
23:08:25 <fizzie> elliott: Well, minecarts can travel up to 0.25 mph.
23:08:28 <zzo38> Is there a mathematical proof that a programming language cannot be both turing-complete and reversible?
23:08:57 <elliott> zzo38: No, because it can be.
23:09:27 <Vorpal> (I forgot the conversion factor for that)
23:09:48 <zzo38> elliott: It is what I thought, yes it can be both.
23:11:46 <fizzie> (28.8 km/h if you count metres in game-blocks but time in IRL terms.)
23:11:57 <zzo38> Someone mentioned a proof: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:2D-Reverse
23:12:51 <elliott> pikhq: The Art of Computer Programming, Volume 4A: Combinatorial Algorithms, Part I, has been released.
23:13:35 <elliott> j-invariant: hey is that the book you were referring to?
23:13:46 <elliott> j-invariant: of course you should by TAoCP! all of it! NOWWWW
23:14:27 <zzo38> I do not have it but I would like to buy it too.
23:14:49 <fizzie> Amazon sells a reasonably priced reasonably pretty box of TAoCP 1-3.
23:14:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: there are turing equivalent reverseible prorgamming languages
23:15:19 <j-invariant> zzo38: there is also a notation of "reversibly turing complete" which means it does not store its whole execution trace (while still being reversible)
23:15:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YES. (Note: It costs like £100 for the box set.)
23:16:00 <fizzie> For Volume 4, I think I'll wait until they sell a box with at least 4A, 4B and 4C.
23:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Random things that immensely annoy me about Doctor Who part n: how many times is humanity going to make first contact?
23:16:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:16:26 <zzo38> j-invariant: I expect 2D-Reverse is reversible and turing-complete.
23:16:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like how everyone acts completely normally even though aliens have been shown to definitely exist, rather dramatically.
23:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody ever talks about them. Ever.
23:17:08 <fizzie> Heh, Amazon already has a Volume 1-4A box (for pre-order).
23:17:39 <elliott> olsner: "ridiculous. ant/nant is already the ultimate build system." --actual person expressing actual, non-sarcastic opinion
23:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It got particularly ridiculous when noöne bothered to tell Donna that she had missed about 3 alien invasions.
23:18:46 <fizzie> http://www.amazon.com/Art-Computer-Programming-Volumes-Boxed/dp/0201485419/ -- this is the version I have, and it's sort-of reasonably priced; but of course if you don't have volumes 1-3, the new box -- http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Programming-Volumes-1-4A-Boxed/dp/0321751043/ -- probably has updates in 1-3 too. (Since it's called "third edition" and all.)
23:19:33 <elliott> I wish ais was here so I could ask if all changesets should just be stored topographically sorted to avoid recomputing, or if there's some reason why that can't work.
23:19:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "Anything happen while I was away?" "Well, some aliens invaded and killed a bunch of people, but that's old news."
23:20:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're forgetting the part where the Earth got TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM, which apparently made the sky transparent for some reason.
23:20:18 <elliott> Or was Donna there for that?
23:20:21 <elliott> Point is, nobody's mentioned it since.
23:20:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes.
23:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> If there was another planet nearby in the sky, we'd see it clearly.
23:20:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But I mean, it became black with planets dotted in it.
23:20:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *Yes*, but there was a suspicious lack of *blue*.
23:21:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Err, wasn't there?
23:21:39 <elliott> The rest of my line still stands.
23:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The bit about everyone forgetting and going about their lives?
23:22:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I now know what causes the lag to ineiros. Packet loss.
23:23:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal had finally solved the greatest problem of his existence.
23:23:26 * Sgeo ponders redownloading ... those links elliott mentioned
23:23:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did I claim that...?
23:23:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where did you get that idea from
23:24:40 <Phantom_Hoover> But the timeline and continuity is irrevocably screwed up, probably because RTD is a grade-A idiot.
23:24:44 <fizzie> 4A has a pretty limited topic (7.1 zeros and ones, incl. 7.1.3 bitwise tricks and techniques, plus 7.2.1 combinatorial generators), leaving many juicy bits (7.3 shortest paths, 7.4 graph algos, 7.5 network algos, etc.) for volumes 4B, 4C, ...; even given that it manages to be 912 pages. So my guess is it's rather knuthian in depth.
23:25:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They should devote two whole series to reconstructing the timeline.
23:25:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider that it can't possibly be in sync with the real-world time.
23:26:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have it start with the "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" speech from Blink!
23:27:24 <Sgeo> elliott, your links don't work
23:27:49 <Sgeo> As in, trying to use the downloaded files doens't work
23:28:21 <elliott> Sgeo: They do if you have a friend who's willing to let you access their MC account once.
23:28:23 <fizzie> Heh, from Knuth's page: "Volume 5, Syntactic Algorithms, in preparation: 9. Lexical scanning (includes also string search and data compression); 10. Parsing techniques. Estimated to be ready by 2020." Well, he certainly is optimistic.
23:28:28 <Sgeo> "Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from .."
23:28:46 <elliott> fizzie: He has discovered the Fountain of Youth.
23:28:47 <fizzie> "After Volume 5 has been completed, I will revise Volumes 1--3 again to bring them up to date. In particular, the new material for those volumes that has been issued in beta-test fascicles will be incorporated at that time.
23:28:48 <fizzie> Then I will publish a ``reader's digest'' edition of Volumes 1--5, condensing the most important material into a single book.
23:28:48 <fizzie> And after Volumes 1--5 are done, God willing, I plan to publish Volume 6 (the theory of context-free languages) and Volume 7 (Compiler techniques), but only if the things I want to say about those topics are still relevant and still haven't been said." That's probably around 2100 or so, then.
23:29:02 <Sgeo> C:\Users\Sgeo\Downloads\MinecraftNew\minecraft.jar"
23:29:50 <elliott> It goes in %APPDATA%\.minecraft\bin.
23:30:03 <elliott> And you need Minecraft.jar (uppercase M) from the minecraft.net site (placed anywhere) to launch it.
23:30:43 <Sgeo> Why is there a Minecraft.jar and a minecraft.jar?
23:30:50 <Sgeo> Notch-quality naming scheme
23:31:18 <Sgeo> Does the Minecraft.jar have to be up to date?
23:32:27 <Sgeo> what will happen to my alpha save?
23:32:32 <Sgeo> Should I just delete it?
23:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> More grievances with Doctor Who: what was with everyone acting like everything was fine after they rewound time in the series 3 finale?
23:33:00 * Sgeo is happy that he won't need to go coal hunting
23:33:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, you'll need to mine.
23:33:11 <elliott> And mining of any sort = tons of coal.
23:33:40 <Sgeo> I don't strictly speaking need to mine, if I'm fine being bored on the surface the whole time
23:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you've pulled yourselves out of the situation doesn't magically fix everything.
23:33:49 <Sgeo> But it means I won't need to rush to get coal
23:34:06 <elliott> Sgeo: If you're not on Peaceful, you need to mine to get the stuff you need to not die.
23:35:28 <Deewiant> Or you can just avoid things that kill you.
23:35:45 <Sgeo> elliott, shelter, lighting, what else?
23:36:10 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm way ahead of you: I *won* Minecraft.
23:36:18 <elliott> Sgeo: How to win Minecraft:
23:36:21 <elliott> Find a hill made out of dirt.
23:36:33 <elliott> Take two blocks, one above the other, starting at ground level, from the hill.
23:36:41 <elliott> Place them just in front of you, looking outwards.
23:36:55 <elliott> Congratulations, you have mined two blocks, placed two blocks, and are in an invincible shelter.
23:36:59 <elliott> Monsters can never harm you.
23:37:17 <pikhq> Unless you want to enjoy yourself.
23:37:36 <elliott> Well, yeah, but it's the winning that's important.
23:37:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DON'T REVEAL THE PLANS.
23:37:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, if the airbase gets big enough, we'll need a ceiling (glass, probably); otherwise monsters will spawn like 40 blocks away.
23:37:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Or you can just put it on peaceful and mine the fuck out of everything.
23:38:14 <elliott> pikhq: Peaceful single-player is rather boring most of the time.
23:38:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, sure.
23:38:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or... MAKE THE AIRBASE OUT OF STEPS
23:38:37 <Sgeo> My mouse will STILL not stay in the window
23:38:48 * Sgeo gives up for now
23:39:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Your computer is broken.
23:40:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:41:46 <Sgeo> C:\Users\Sgeo>java -version
23:41:46 <Sgeo> java version "1.6.0_22"
23:41:46 <Sgeo> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_22-b04)
23:41:46 <Sgeo> Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 17.1-b03, mixed mode)
23:42:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Screenshot of Minecraft running?
23:42:39 <elliott> With your mouse inside the window.
23:43:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:43:07 <Sgeo> Incidentally, the .minecraft is an amalgamation of those files and nooga's source's files
23:43:10 <Sgeo> That's probably it
23:43:22 <Sgeo> But I don't know how to fix it
23:43:54 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I intend to soon
23:43:57 <Vorpal> (the amalgation of files)
23:44:16 <j-invariant> I am very happy to have bought it, it was well worth it
23:44:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and I'm sure ineiros will let you on then. Even if elliott will hate that.
23:45:03 <Vorpal> j-invariant, the only issue is the addiction. But I guess Sgeo has that already
23:45:05 <Sgeo> elliott wants me on so I can do drudge work
23:45:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo, refuse to once you get on and instead go build some awesome thing some distance away :)
23:46:13 <Sgeo> I have a boring idea
23:47:14 <Sgeo> One block, then to the left block above air, then to the left, block block, then to the left, block air air, etc
23:47:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo, better idea: build a houseboat as your base. Won't be able to move yet (perhaps if we get movecraft!). But awesome
23:48:21 <Sgeo> elliott, I did say my idea was boring
23:48:22 <oklopol> can you build cars of some sort in movecraft
23:48:35 <elliott> oklopol: if they hover in the air, i guess
23:48:41 <elliott> oklopol: it empties chests though
23:48:54 <Vorpal> elliott, that will likely be fixed soon
23:48:56 <Sgeo> When will it not empty chests?
23:48:59 <Vorpal> I spoke to the authors
23:49:13 <Vorpal> movecraft is cool, and getting cooler every day
23:49:17 <Sgeo> Is it possible to use water to get down from any height safely?/
23:49:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, 2 deep pool at the bottom
23:49:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, 1 deep won't work
23:49:46 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you need 2 deep or deeper
23:49:50 <Sgeo> If you don't have access to the bottom?
23:49:58 <Sgeo> And are spilling the water from a height?
23:50:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:50:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I guess you could carefully go down a waterfall
23:50:08 <oklopol> is it theoretically impossible to get down safely from a single block up in the air?
23:50:10 <Sgeo> How do normal people get down from a scaffold?
23:50:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, not if you have a bucket of water with you
23:50:40 -!- Behold has joined.
23:50:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you walk down it if you built it that way
23:50:46 <elliott> sneak to the edge of the block, place one sand, run back onto the block so you don't fall
23:50:50 <elliott> repeat until there's a full tower
23:50:51 <oklopol> using just dirt, that was kinda important
23:50:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, or if it is a 1x1 pillar then you dig down
23:51:03 <elliott> oklopol: are we to assume that there is no terrain nearby?
23:51:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:51:23 <oklopol> all terrain in the world is 10 lower than you
23:51:31 <oklopol> obviously you can move arbitrarily far at your height
23:51:36 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, you can use water to get down. you can even remove the water and dirt first
23:51:45 <oklopol> assuming you have an infinite amount of dirt at least
23:51:47 <elliott> place water, step on water, carefully remove dirt, bucket water, follow stream down
23:51:56 <elliott> oklopol: trivially impossible then afaics
23:52:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, if all terrain is 10 below you
23:52:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, then built out until you are above 2 deep water
23:52:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, then jump down
23:52:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, I think elliott has me on ignore so tell him I solved it
23:52:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:52:55 <oklopol> obviously all that terrain is dirt
23:53:00 <elliott> Sgeo: if you're on one block of dirt
23:53:07 <Vorpal> oklopol, not obviously. You didn't say that :P
23:53:21 <elliott> oklopol: maybe if you remove the dirt block below you, wait until you're in placing-range of the terrain below, then rapid-fire :D
23:53:29 <oklopol> well that's the natural question
23:53:31 <Sgeo> If you follow a stream down, and it ends up not being 2 deep at the bottom
23:53:33 <elliott> you'd only fall 4 blocks, if you can place blocks instantly
23:53:38 <oklopol> elliott: 10 is enough to forbid that
23:53:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think that will work
23:53:46 <elliott> oklopol: you can place from 6 blocks
23:53:56 <elliott> until there's a block below you
23:54:10 <Vorpal> 3 does not hurt. 4 does
23:54:11 <oklopol> that's why 10. that's a lie, i just chose it arbitrarily.
23:54:41 <elliott> fizzie: "Bees, bees, bees, bees!" --slogan
23:54:48 <oklopol> what i was thinking was something crazy like jumping down so you can start putting stuff under your original block, but obviously you still can't put a block under yourself...
23:55:06 * Sgeo attempts to examine schedules again
23:55:11 <Sgeo> And trying not to go mad
23:56:17 <Vorpal> hah: http://i.imgur.com/uWV6r.jpg
23:56:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover logreading: Bad thing about skybase: Respawning often offsets you enough that you fall to your death.
23:58:09 <oklopol> so if you have sand and dirt, you can actually reach any cell from any cell
23:58:21 <oklopol> starting and ending on top of single block
23:58:29 <Vorpal> j-invariant, also this is seriously cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPVYrltke4
23:58:36 <Vorpal> a bit glitchy in the middle
23:58:52 <elliott> i don't see how you could get up again to a single block
23:58:53 <Vorpal> a bit waste of space though to not reuse block for same tone
23:59:13 <oklopol> elliott: using dirt, just make a staircase and break it as you go up for instance
23:59:29 <elliott> oklopol: how can you break the block before your current one
23:59:41 <elliott> how do you break bottom-right
23:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, by shifting out on the edge
23:59:48 <oklopol> you can even just break the block two down from you, then jump up and place under you'
23:59:49 <elliott> i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the
00:00:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the <-- yes it is
00:00:28 <Vorpal> oklopol, you can tell him what I said. He is obviously /ignore-ing me. I don't know why
00:01:02 <oklopol> what exactly should i tell him?
00:01:11 <elliott> http://image.bayimg.com/padlgaade.jpg
00:01:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, that I told him how it is possible to do that :P
00:01:19 <Sgeo> elliott, are you ignoring Vorpal?
00:01:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:01:44 <elliott> Until XChat can be configured to ignore mentions of names I will have to do it mentally.
00:01:44 -!- pumpkin has joined.
00:01:51 <elliott> I'll write a script to do it at some point.
00:02:02 <Vorpal> how strange. Well if that is his style
00:02:11 <Sgeo> elliott, Vorpal suggested sneaking over the edge
00:02:30 <Vorpal> he will refuse to acknowledge this
00:02:33 <elliott> Sgeo: I recommend not trying to evade ignores.
00:02:36 <Vorpal> which will be utterly stupid
00:02:40 <Vorpal> that is what I told you
00:02:53 <elliott> Vorpal might note that that method is exactly what I said, however.
00:02:56 <oklopol> elliott: Vorpal suggested what Sgeo said, but you don't even need to have that, all we need is that you can remove the topmost dirt from piles close to you, if you have good visibility
00:03:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal might note that that method is exactly what I said, however. <-- no
00:03:11 <oklopol> oh of course you then can't remove the last one
00:03:16 <Vorpal> you said "<elliott> i'm not sure it's possible... maybe starting on the" after
00:04:16 <elliott> "The Blue Creeper is a new variety of creeper that spawns in the dark just like normal creepers, but they have a much different behaviour pattern. Instead of puffing up, these creepers launch themselves into the air like a rocket! After that, they explode on impact with the ground, so get out of there!!!"
00:04:44 <oklopol> but it's actually still possible with a slightly less powerful visibility (which i don't specify): you have AB and C on top of C, now add D next to A on another axis, remove B, then remove D, jump on C and remove A
00:04:49 <j-invariant> I was able to hook a creeper on the fishing line to actually get him off my treehouse :P
00:05:03 <elliott> oklopol: start minecraft theory
00:05:35 <Sgeo> Bloody piece of shit website
00:05:42 <Sgeo> STOP BEING DOWN
00:06:47 <elliott> j-invariant: http://twitter.com/pigworker/status/25835213661675520
00:06:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:07:02 <Sgeo> And it's back down
00:07:07 * Sgeo stabs elliott angrily
00:07:34 <Sgeo> I'm just taking out my anger at this website on you
00:07:50 <oklopol> elliott is an awesome punching bag
00:08:04 <elliott> indeed, but for the gormet punching experience may i recommend oklopol
00:08:34 <oklopol> i should probably eat some meat. and possibly some noodles.
00:09:11 <oklopol> yes, i have a binary scale from uninteresting to gourmet
00:10:41 <oklopol> it's actually a bit crazy that even if you have an infinite plane, there is actually no way to even get one block down from it
00:10:47 <oklopol> unless there already are blocks down
00:11:07 <oklopol> is there with some tool or something?
00:11:15 * Sgeo oohs at http://isup.me
00:11:16 <oklopol> sand doesn't help in this case
00:12:15 <fizzie> oklopol: If your spawn-point is on the plane, jump down, place blocks as you fall, die, respawn, go down.
00:12:29 <fizzie> I guess that doesn't quite count.
00:12:29 <oklopol> well sure, by using one life, you can lower the plane as much as you like
00:13:18 <elliott> you seriously haven't seen it before?
00:13:20 <oklopol> the whole plane, since if you have even one block under the plane, you can easily destroy the whole plane, and build another plane from that single block (ignoring the fact it's an infinite plane, but anyhow i think you can do it lazily)
00:13:29 <Sgeo> elliott, I haven't seen the shortened domain before.
00:13:44 <elliott> Sgeo: ...you're oohing at a domain being slightly shorter.
00:13:49 <elliott> Your... brain is... broken.
00:13:53 <fizzie> oklopol: Maybe if you ride a boat down you could (theoretically) place blocks as you fall in such a way that you'd be able to jump from the boat on to one of them. (I'm not sure how well you can jump from a falling boat, however.)
00:13:57 <elliott> Your brain is completely and utterly not working correctly in any way whatsoever.
00:14:00 <oklopol> oh my god Sgeo, what the hell did you just do! please apologize
00:14:09 <elliott> j-invariant: that hurts man, that hurts :D
00:14:10 <fizzie> oklopol: And then there was the water thing.
00:14:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> Sgeo: ...you're oohing at a domain being slightly shorter. <-- "slightly"?
00:14:41 <Vorpal> the one I remember is rather long
00:14:42 <oklopol> ohh right, make a waterfall, go down by boat, put some blocks, come up?
00:14:50 <fizzie> You can just swim down/up.
00:15:19 <oklopol> so again, that's kind of trivial
00:15:22 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't suppose you could hang at the "bottom" of a ladder and place a continuation block below where the ladder ends? (Probably not.)
00:15:34 <Sgeo> Seriously? Not having to type as much is not ooh worthy?
00:15:41 <Sgeo> [Bookmarks are useless for me]
00:15:43 <oklopol> i want a problem that doesn't have an *effective* solution, like you'd need a bot and it'd take ages to do
00:15:52 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't know, was wondering
00:15:55 <Vorpal> <fizzie> oklopol: Maybe if you ride a boat down you could (theoretically) place blocks as you fall in such a way that you'd be able to jump from the boat on to one of them. (I'm not sure how well you can jump from a falling boat, however.) <-- you can exit a falling boat. I don't think you can jump from one though. Never tried in single player since falling on a falling boat hurts (it falls slower than
00:15:55 <Vorpal> you do except when you hit it and your vertical speed is reset to zero)
00:15:56 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, it seriously is not
00:16:25 <Sgeo> There's a certain elegance to the new domain name
00:16:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, elliott is wrong
00:16:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo, though perhaps you did over-react a bit
00:16:46 <Vorpal> but he is way too hard. I think he gone nuts recently
00:17:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well more than usually
00:17:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he has been nuts for a long time
00:17:36 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure his reaction is typical of him
00:17:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well true. But I meant in general
00:18:00 <oklopol> are there minecraft puzzles somewhere?
00:18:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, that sounds interesting
00:18:26 <oklopol> maybe you could do some stuff with resource limitations, dunno
00:18:27 <Vorpal> oklopol, do you mean physical ones?
00:18:29 <fizzie> Sgeo: There's a domain (registered) called up.is, that could be made one of those is-it-up sites.
00:18:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, or puzzles to solve in-game?
00:18:42 <elliott> also if you're replying to Vorpal which I suspect, he's currently in his regular elliott whine mode
00:18:57 <elliott> where he uses every situation as an opportunity to talk about how horrible i am, i doubt j-invariant and oklopol got the same treatment despite them agreeing
00:19:00 <Vorpal> you are in going nuts mode
00:19:01 <oklopol> puzzles to solve in-game would necessarily be pretty trivial wouldn't they
00:19:04 <elliott> but then Vorpal never was one for consistency, non-hypocrisy, logic, ...
00:19:13 <elliott> oklopol: that's what ADVENTURE mode is going to be
00:19:16 <elliott> no block placing which is just stupid
00:19:17 <Vorpal> oh come on. You are not one for them either
00:19:32 <oklopol> well of course there has to be block placing and removing
00:19:51 <oklopol> otherwise obviously you can execute any puzzle as a computer program opening a door if the correct switches are used
00:20:24 <oklopol> or alternatively: that wouldn't really be a minecraft puzzle
00:21:01 <oklopol> Vorpal: in-game, sure, but in the sense that you are given extra rules
00:21:16 <fizzie> oklopol: Minecraft without block placement is like a farm without the wife walking on the granary path, you know. (I don't suppose the "talo ilman aitanpolulla astelevaa emäntää" thing is an international idiom.)
00:21:27 <oklopol> could you build a trap that can't be destroyed easily without dying?
00:21:28 <j-invariant> next time I'm setting up base somewhere isolated I am saving the coordinates
00:22:01 <j-invariant> P.S. how the hell am I supposed to SEE the coordinates over that graph
00:22:09 <olsner> Someone highlighted me.
00:22:14 <oklopol> that's a problem i have as well
00:22:23 <elliott> j-invariant: get a better cpu
00:22:26 <elliott> and it'll take up less of the graph :-)
00:22:41 <olsner> <elliott> olsner: "ridiculous. ant/nant is already the ultimate build system." --actual person expressing actual, non-sarcastic opinion
00:22:50 <fizzie> Using a larger and/or a differently shaped window might also help. (I don't know if it scales the font size or not.)
00:23:44 <elliott> olsner: when someone said "but XML" they replied "well nant fixes that!" (paraphrased)
00:23:49 <oklopol> hmm, could you make something like a huge amount of arrow guns that shoot at you no matter which way you approach the thing?
00:24:23 <elliott> oklopol: you can place dispensers in any direction
00:24:26 <elliott> shooting all the time? heh
00:24:27 <olsner> the only remedy would be if nant stands for "not ant", but even in the negative starting with ant is the wrong way
00:24:32 <elliott> that's just a constant redstone circuit
00:24:35 <oklopol> elliott: up as well? oh cool
00:24:45 <olsner> kind of like how SVN wouldn't have been any better if it was "not cvs" instead of "better cvs"
00:24:53 <fizzie> Is "nant" that Ant-like .net build tool? Because that's XML build files too.
00:25:02 <elliott> maybe it just uses LESS XML!
00:25:05 <oklopol> oh you just meant in any nwes direction
00:25:05 <elliott> oklopol: but if you build bedrock to top you can't go above anyway
00:25:10 <elliott> you can climb to the top, but
00:25:16 <elliott> that's basically unsolvable
00:25:21 <elliott> even with arrows, you could climb to the top
00:25:22 <fizzie> http://nant.sourceforge.net/release/latest/help/fundamentals/buildfiles.html -- yeah, I'm sure that's very nice to anyone who hates XML.
00:25:23 <elliott> and just jump over quickly
00:25:29 <oklopol> is it? what if you build a wall as you go
00:25:35 <elliott> you'd get killed from the fall though
00:25:40 <oklopol> we may assume a single arrow kills you
00:26:09 <elliott> oklopol: are the cows in this model spherical?
00:26:10 <oklopol> elliott: like, dunno, somehow shield yourself from the arrows
00:26:21 <olsner> great: "NAnt's build files are written in XML. Each build file contains one project and a number of targets. Each target contains a number of tasks."
00:26:21 <oklopol> if it makes the puzzle interesting, sure
00:26:22 <elliott> oklopol: i think it's quite simple
00:26:32 <olsner> that's *exactly what ant does*
00:26:44 <elliott> oklopol: does the inside need to be guarded too?
00:26:52 <elliott> i.e. do you want people inside to be shot
00:27:07 <oklopol> that's the goal, to get inside
00:27:09 <fizzie> olsner: That's not surprising, given that it's designed to be "like Ant".
00:27:14 <elliott> oklopol: build each wall with the arrows facing outwards
00:27:38 <elliott> oklopol: this misses diagonals, so if you approach from a diagonal, time it right, and put two dirt in front of you, you can shield
00:27:41 <oklopol> (btw i just realized you can just approach diagonally)
00:27:46 <olsner> fizzie: according to some supporters nant fixes all the problems with using xml
00:27:46 <elliott> well you might need two i think arrows go through one block with dispensers
00:27:50 <elliott> oklopol: and then you just have to like
00:27:57 <elliott> build one platform, place dirt over dispenser quickly
00:28:00 <elliott> repeat until you get to the top
00:28:09 <elliott> oklopol: start far enough away that the arrows don't reach you
00:28:09 <oklopol> maybe the trap sends minecarts shooting arrows by using zombies
00:28:17 <Sgeo> Do dispensers have any user other than weaponry?
00:28:31 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw
00:28:55 <oklopol> elliott: you can be higher than highest dirt?
00:29:04 <elliott> oklopol: you can stand on top of it
00:29:16 <elliott> oklopol: so the dispenser would be level with what you're standing on
00:29:19 <elliott> thus making you immune to its arrows
00:30:00 <elliott> oklopol: is your game done
00:30:12 <oklopol> in that case you can approach any trap: no trap can destroy your dirts, and no trap can shoot up, so you can just remove one layer of the trap at a time
00:31:10 <elliott> oklopol: question, you know your game
00:31:38 <elliott> oklopol: it's 2d universe right
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00:32:34 <elliott> oklopol: i have an idea you will enjoy
00:32:43 <elliott> oklopol: 3d universe with 2d cross-section interface
00:32:46 <elliott> oklopol: i.e. the dwarf fortress model
00:32:56 <elliott> all the freedom of 3d, all the beauty of 2d, all the incomprehensibility of the combination
00:32:59 <oklopol> yeah that's a retarded idea
00:33:50 <elliott> oklopol: why's it retarded :p
00:34:02 <oklopol> less ugly than the usual 3d view, sure, but so is rendering a 3d world as a butterfly flying around on your screen.
00:34:07 <oklopol> doesn't really make the gameplay all that fun.
00:34:31 <Sgeo> Why are you down, website? Why? Why must you do this to me?
00:34:37 <Sgeo> You are tearing me apart, website!
00:34:43 <oklopol> you would be a complete cripple against an enemy
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00:35:11 <oklopol> a human that uses the usual 3d rendering or an ai
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00:35:26 <elliott> oklopol: everyone's a cripple
00:35:28 <oklopol> 4d is always a viable option
00:35:38 <elliott> oklopol: now how you render this is
00:35:48 <quintopia> speaking of 4d...is that 4d platformer thing any closer to public playability/
00:35:54 <elliott> oklopol: pick a 4d->3d projection, preferably the craziest one you can think of that works in discrete space
00:36:04 <elliott> oklopol: then do the cross-section 3d->2d thing
00:36:13 <elliott> oklopol: congrats, least understandable world, ever
00:36:41 <Sgeo> http://www.sct-bus.org/br.html is up, but the main website isn't
00:36:44 <oklopol> maybe a 1d projection would be nice
00:37:09 <elliott> oklopol: use the most mathematically pretty Z^2 -> Z projection you can think of
00:37:13 <elliott> and render the plane in 1d like that
00:37:24 <elliott> oklopol: omg, then do a 3d projection like this:
00:37:25 <oklopol> hey that's actually a great idea
00:37:33 <elliott> oklopol: first row is everything with z=0, with that pretty projection
00:37:46 <elliott> and you'll have the most fucked-up 3D projection ever :D
00:37:59 <elliott> compress THAT with the same projection
00:38:01 <oklopol> nah we just need one dimension and a bijection with the 4d space
00:38:03 <elliott> and you've compressed 3D into 1D
00:38:08 <elliott> then do the same thing with rows again
00:38:20 <oklopol> and arrows drawn on top to show where the successor in each direction is
00:38:49 <elliott> movement would be completely incomprehensible
00:38:56 <elliott> you'd probably just jump about the plane seemingly randomly
00:38:56 <Sgeo> if ( temp == '.' ) { fileName=fileName }
00:38:57 <oklopol> the array gets randomly resorted all the time in order to make sure the hamming distances correspond well to distances on screen
00:39:02 <elliott> and things would just sorta flicker all the time
00:39:03 <Sgeo> Bloody hell is wrong with this website?
00:39:34 <olsner> #esoteric is not a "website"
00:39:42 <olsner> and it's supposed to work like this
00:40:24 <oklopol> elliott: so maybe 4d -> 2d + arrows + resorting
00:40:34 <oklopol> maybe it just shows a neighborhood as a graph
00:40:36 <elliott> oklopol: mine involved one, pretty projection?
00:40:57 <oklopol> but that's a stupid projection because you have to stay near spawn all the time
00:41:02 <oklopol> or you won't see what you're doing
00:41:17 <elliott> oklopol: um it always scrolls to show you where you are
00:41:26 <elliott> oklopol: you can hold like shift while pressing a direction
00:41:38 <elliott> i.e. center the view on the block to your [direction]
00:41:42 <elliott> and move around like that, without actually moving
00:41:44 <oklopol> it scrolls, yes, what i meant was the jumps get longer
00:41:47 <elliott> thus letting you GET TO GRIPS with the world
00:42:02 <oklopol> it's a feature that means you have to stay near spawn
00:42:06 <j-invariant> I wish you coud put down flags that would be your (nearest) spawnpoint
00:42:08 <oklopol> i prefer just rendering a graph
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00:43:10 <oklopol> ofc it's always the same graph, but i won't tell the randomized graph drawer that
00:43:21 <olsner> tomorrow I shall stop being so afraid of iretq
00:44:12 <elliott> olsner: how far is your os done
00:44:28 <olsner> I'd say a few operations short of iretq
00:45:10 <olsner> well srsly then - I was working on context switching then figured out it was a wee bit trickier than in theory
00:45:29 <olsner> (this was 3 weeks ago)
00:46:16 <olsner> I thought it should be doable without any of the fancy stuff that an iretq *can* do, not so sure anymore
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00:47:37 <olsner> interrupt return, quad version
00:47:55 <olsner> or iret with a 64-bit operand size
00:48:11 <Vorpal> olsner, is that the x86 family?
00:48:25 <j-invariant> did not do any work today, just played minecraft :|
00:48:50 <elliott> olsner: so what is your os actually going to be like
00:49:00 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Why are you down, website? Why? Why must you do this to me? <-- hey get with the memes, it's supposed to be "WEBSITE Y U NO WORK?"
00:49:13 <olsner> elliott: mostly yet to be determined, microkernelish
00:49:24 <Sgeo> I finally got my hands on the bus's schedule
00:49:48 <olsner> and, you know, there won't actually be an *operating* system, it'll just be a kernel until at least 2020
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00:50:41 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
00:50:43 <fizzie> Speaking of ambition, today I came across http://nhi1.berlios.de/ "The line from the evolution in computer-science up to the computer hardware development speed and the internet global computer network lead to the possibility to create the first Non Human Intelligence until 2040. [...] The NHI1 project will create an open intelligence."
00:50:51 <Vorpal> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
00:51:12 <fizzie> They have already solved natural language understanding: you just do "human language --> other language --> human language" and then make sure "other language" is "computer understand-able".
00:51:38 <EgoBot> 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [707]
00:51:45 <Vorpal> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
00:51:48 <EgoBot> 128 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>-. [771]
00:52:24 <elliott> olsner: hey 2020 is about when I expect @ to start taking shape...
00:52:40 <olsner> after fixing up context switching I think communicating processes will be next - then some kind of support for SMP systems, basically just whatever is needed for the kernel not to fuck itself immediately
00:52:47 <Vorpal> <fizzie> They have already solved natural language understanding: you just do "human language --> other language --> human language" and then make sure "other language" is "computer understand-able". <-- :D
00:53:05 <quintopia> OHEY Notch should add a fourth dimension mode to MC and completely remove the market for Miegakure :P
00:53:25 <olsner> e.g. I'd like it to be pre-emptive as soon as possible, but I think there are tricky bits in making that work right
00:53:36 <elliott> In the past days I had time to watch some tubes from Google tech-talk including the latest interviews from Eric Schmidt. I thing Google is the current technology PowerHouse and worth to serve as the first target of NHI1.
00:53:36 <elliott> Would that be Google as a verb or a noun? -> more noun as verb
00:53:51 <fizzie> elliott: They also have "theBrain", which is a key-value database, because, you know, that's all a brain is. Since "Data is the key point of every technology. Data have to be smart organized to be available with the speed and with the quality needed."
00:54:02 <elliott> fizzie: Tokyo Cabinet: it's intelligent!
00:54:21 <elliott> ~99% of all the data is located in the private (local) networks. (to check this, google (verb) for an average known (not famous) person from your own social environment and check the results available in the Internet. You will not find any data from the person own hard-drive, you will not find any data from the person employer, you will not find any private data from a Login-Required Internet zone like facebook... -> This all is good because priv
00:54:21 <elliott> ate is private and the opposite from public)
00:54:25 <fizzie> Yes, the Moggel thing was a bit curious too.
00:54:26 <elliott> Private is private and the opposite from public.
00:54:45 <elliott> The Project sounds a little bit like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test-driven_development but it does, in fact, more. The goal is that the programmer does only write test-cases and the TDC is in duty to: write, organize and publish the software. Nobody, including the programmer itself, have to understand the software created.
00:54:45 <fizzie> elliott: Do note that "theCompiler" has some Clue-like tendencies. (Except it of course doesn't exist.)
00:54:48 <olsner> it irks me this full context switching thing though - there are a *lot* of registers to restore... cooperative multiprocessing would be nicer - not least because since you already have rcx and r11 clobbered for syscall so you can simply sysret back to it
00:54:50 <elliott> Hey, they invented Clue! >:)
00:54:59 <olsner> again, cooperative sucks
00:55:21 <elliott> olsner: see if you compile a language like I do, then you can automatically insert yield instructions in the compiled code in places that the compiler deems to be optimal
00:55:54 <olsner> well, basically you have to *guarantee* that all user processes call yield in a timely manner
00:55:55 <elliott> olsner: this allows the simplicity of a cooperative architecture with the responsiveness and reliability of a preemptive architecture, and with a Sufficiently Smart Compiler, even greater performance
00:56:03 <elliott> olsner: yes, and since all things in my OS go through the compiler
00:56:08 <elliott> it just has to insert yield instructions itself
00:56:19 <elliott> olsner: which your OS should be, since my OS is the best?
00:56:35 <Vorpal> <olsner> it irks me this full context switching thing though - there are a *lot* of registers to restore... cooperative multiprocessing would be nicer - not least because since you already have rcx and r11 clobbered for syscall so you can simply sysret back to it <-- hm doesn't x86 have an instruction to dump it all or restore it all?
00:56:58 <elliott> fizzie: "responsible engineer to migrate the entire infrastructure of a life insurance company to the state of the art"
00:57:04 <elliott> fizzie: Dear god, this guy is actually given serious tasks to do.
00:57:08 <olsner> for one, I still expect an assembly-level interface, and no trust from the OS on user processes - this means cooperative is pretty much out of the question from the start
00:57:13 <elliott> http://openfacts2.berlios.de/wikien/index.php/User:Aotto1968#1_mar_2008
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00:57:42 <elliott> olsner: my OS gives no trust at all to "processes" (no such concept in mine), but yeah, no asm-level interface without the user demanding that e be allowed to run some arbitrary code :)
00:58:02 <Vorpal> olsner, will this be an RTOS?
00:58:06 <olsner> Vorpal: there is (waspushad
00:58:29 <olsner> *(was) pushad, but it doesn't restore ip and doesn't support 64-bit registers
00:58:41 <elliott> olsner: have I mentioned: @ is the greatest?
00:58:52 <olsner> elliott: repeatedly, probably
00:58:53 <Vorpal> olsner, wasn't there some task dump?
00:59:00 <elliott> olsner: Insufficiently? I am going to mention it?
00:59:39 <olsner> Vorpal: that is to say, hardware task-switching is generally recognized as suckage and is dropped in amd64
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01:00:10 <fizzie> elliott: Well, he does (to some extent) seem less overtly crazy than, say, Mentifex; and there are some reasonable (from a first glance, anyway) low-level twiddlery there, though of course nothing that'd have anything to do with AI.
01:00:43 <elliott> olsner: OS task-switching is generally recognised as suckage and is dropped in @</troll>
01:01:09 <olsner> elliott trolling. surprising in oh so many ways.
01:01:19 <elliott> olsner: i have a knife and your address
01:01:35 <olsner> elliott: wtf, who gave you a knife? and my address?
01:01:42 <Vorpal> olsner, I still thought there was some dump-registers thingy
01:01:43 <elliott> olsner: that's what I want to know!
01:01:57 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/68400/ <-- greatest troll ever
01:02:11 <olsner> elliott: also, do come visit and chop some vegetables with your knife, we could cook and have fun all night
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01:02:41 <elliott> olsner: pervert, I'm going to call the police
01:03:05 <olsner> elliott: "a'ight" as they say "in da hood"
01:03:23 <elliott> olsner: I have trouble believing that you have any relation to or know anything about "da hood"
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01:04:14 <olsner> elliott: I have trouble believing in God, yet he's real
01:04:50 <olsner> not sure, as previously mentioned I have trouble believing
01:05:07 <elliott> olsner: are you _trying_ to confuse me? :D
01:05:42 <elliott> fizzie: yay mentifex http://cyborg.blogspot.com/2010/09/sep09mfpj.html
01:06:03 <olsner> elliott: vegetables, "fun all night"
01:06:14 <elliott> olsner: saved for future blackmail
01:06:25 <elliott> fizzie: CARS WHAT ARE CARS / GUNS WHAT ARE GUNS / TOOLS WHAT ARE TOOLS
01:08:51 <fizzie> Also obvious sentience.
01:09:50 <fizzie> THE GUNS MAKE THE CARS
01:10:14 <elliott> fizzie: It's referring to the military-industrial complex, dude.
01:14:48 <elliott> j-invariant: give haskell a better type system please
01:16:15 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm not about to start writing programs in coq
01:16:26 <elliott> "There's a feature called "reification" (which the classically-educated will recognise as the Latin for "thingification"), which provides a reflection mechanism."
01:16:31 <elliott> j-invariant: oh yeah, epigram 2 programs
01:17:07 <elliott> j-invariant: well got another suggestion? :P
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01:18:36 <j-invariant> elliott: There is currently no programming language suitable for actually programming in
01:18:52 <elliott> j-invariant: i don't think that's true ... you can mostly sling it if you build your own little library of abstractions
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01:24:57 <lambdabot> Unsafe.Coerce unsafeCoerce :: a -> b
01:24:57 <lambdabot> Control.OldException throwDyn :: Typeable exception => exception -> b
01:24:57 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax bindQ :: Q a -> (a -> Q b) -> Q b
01:25:03 <elliott> j-invariant: for instance I think Template Haskell is useful :-)
01:31:53 <j-invariant> maybe I should just give on scheme and implement a new language in haskell
01:32:18 <Sgeo> Slate has macros, right?/
01:32:28 <Sgeo> [I think I'm putting Atomo down, for now]
01:32:41 <j-invariant> Sgeo: nobody is going to know what Slate is in 2 years
01:33:28 <pikhq> java: malloc.c:3684: __libc_malloc: Assertion `!victim || ((((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t)))))->size & 0x2) || ar_ptr == (((((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t)))))->size & 0x4) ? ((heap_info *)((unsigned long)(((mchunkptr)((char*)(victim) - 2*(sizeof(size_t))))) & ~((2 * (4 * 1024 * 1024 * sizeof(long)))-1)))->ar_ptr : &main_arena)' failed.
01:33:32 <Sgeo> I do prefer Atomo's lambda syntax
01:33:43 <Sgeo> I think it's the best I've ever seen
01:33:54 <elliott> lambda syntax, that's what matters in a language
01:34:13 <Sgeo> elliott, note that, despite that, I'm still leaning back towards Slate
01:34:25 <Sgeo> Also, lack of a lambda syntax can be.. ticky
01:34:27 <j-invariant> elliott: what should I call my caluculator thing?
01:34:35 <elliott> j-invariant: you mean your dependent CAS?
01:34:42 <Sgeo> Same with a crappy one (ahem ahem Python)
01:35:30 <elliott> j-invariant: justification: dependent -> http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=dependency
01:35:44 <elliott> j-invariant: also you could say it was like a colony of mathematical definitions??? i dunno :D
01:35:53 <elliott> i like short, simple names, they don't have to mean much imo
01:36:03 <elliott> pikhq: note that hotspot is -client only, -server is another VM
01:36:18 <elliott> j-invariant: "In computer science, coupling or dependency ..." maybe some pun on coupling
01:36:21 <pikhq> It's claiming to be HotSpot server.
01:36:29 <elliott> j-invariant: Relate, coupling -- relationship, and it like, finds mathematical relations?
01:36:38 <elliott> j-invariant: so Colony or Relate :P
01:38:46 <pikhq> NOW IT KEEPS CRASHING.
01:38:51 <pikhq> IT MUST HATE MY MINE
01:38:54 <j-invariant> elliott: simple example: data T = Z | Q, obviously you just defiena function carrier Z = Integer ; carrier Q = Rational and everything is easy
01:39:22 <elliott> j-invariant: that's rather limited since you can't extent T
01:39:23 <j-invariant> elliott: (N.B. I can't do the usual data T x where Z :: T Integer ... because of other stuff)
01:39:33 <elliott> j-invariant: or wait, is this haskell?
01:39:45 <elliott> j-invariant: so how are you approaching this, are you implementing a dependent lang and doing it in that or?
01:39:47 <j-invariant> this is an explanation of why haskell is stupid
01:40:36 <j-invariant> (N.B. I am well aware that it's /me/ that's stupid, because I can't find any way to program this very simple)
01:40:55 <j-invariant> maybe I'll just have if x /= y then error "IMPOSSIBLE" else ... everywhere
01:40:56 <Sgeo> Has anyone yet made an easily reprogrammable music playing system in MC?
01:41:44 <elliott> j-invariant: try template haskell :D
01:41:46 <elliott> j-invariant: alternatively
01:41:58 <elliott> j-invariant: one way to do more "complex" types that doesn't give compile-time errors but stops you having conditions everywhere
01:42:07 <elliott> module Foo (DataType, mkDataType) where
01:42:15 <elliott> data DataType = Constructor ...
01:42:24 <elliott> mkDataType ... | ok = Constructor ...
01:42:29 <elliott> | otherwise = error "nooooo"
01:42:35 <elliott> module Nat (Nat, mkNat) where
01:42:53 <elliott> | otherwise = error "Nat.mkNat: negative natural"
01:43:01 <elliott> then nothing can access the constructor
01:43:08 <elliott> the relevant deriving instances
01:43:12 <elliott> so you can to toInteger and the like
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01:48:21 <j-invariant> So I think I can actually make a valid claim that "haskells type system is too limiting"
01:48:43 <j-invariant> (normally when people say that they are wrong)
01:49:05 <j-invariant> You can't embed a more expressive type system into it
01:49:57 <j-invariant> so e.g. if you are implementing a language with a more expressive type system, your typechecking (written in haskell) cannot give you a well typed & total evaluator
01:50:07 <j-invariant> (In fact haskell can not even express its own type system)
01:50:11 <elliott> j-invariant: the thing is that more expressive type systems have their own problems
01:50:35 <elliott> j-invariant: try and type infer Coq programs
01:50:53 <elliott> j-invariant: also you get very close very quickly to "oops, my language must be sub-TC for this to work"
01:51:00 <elliott> and also "oops, I need proofs everywhere to take advantage of this"
01:51:08 <elliott> and also "oops, everything is really fucking slow to typecheck now"
01:51:13 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:51:18 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH type ExpQ = Q Exp
01:51:18 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Lib type ExpQ = Q Exp
01:51:18 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Quote dataToExpQ :: Data a => (b -> Maybe (Q Exp)) -> a -> Q Exp
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01:52:08 <elliott> j-invariant: here's a little something i am working on for haskell
01:52:29 <elliott> {-# LANGUAGE TemplateHaskell #-}
01:52:29 <elliott> validatedType "Nat" "Integer" [| \i -> i >= 0 |]
01:52:44 <elliott> newtype Nat = MkNat Integer
01:53:29 <elliott> j-invariant: obviously I really want it to be like maybeMkNat returning Maybe Nat and then have functions on top of that etc
01:54:45 <elliott> j-invariant: obviously this is runtime-only
01:54:47 <elliott> but i think it's quite cool
01:55:53 <j-invariant> elliott: you could implement this without TH?
01:56:14 <elliott> j-invariant: well sure you could write out all the functions yourself ... but that's a huge pain
01:56:28 <elliott> the point is that this defines things like mkMaybeNat, isValidNat, etc.
02:00:34 <j-invariant> elliott: not trying to be mean but I don't find that very useful
02:00:45 <j-invariant> elliott: I mean just type out the names by hand :P
02:01:29 <elliott> newtype Nat = MkNat Integer deriving (Eq, Show)
02:01:36 <elliott> mkMaybeNat :: Integer -> Maybe Nat
02:02:02 <elliott> mkNat = fromJust . mkMaybeNat
02:02:11 <elliott> validatedType "Nat" "Integer" [| \i -> i >= 0 |]
02:02:49 <j-invariant> elliott: well maybe that is useful but it's not exactly a pearl
02:03:05 <elliott> j-invariant: i mentioned it because it was relevant to what you were saying
02:03:10 <elliott> j-invariant: wrt continually making checks for validity
02:04:28 <elliott> j-invariant: you didn't state your problem very clearly in #haskell :)
02:04:34 <elliott> j-invariant: also, the point is that instead of checking values are valid all the time
02:04:37 <elliott> you can just build this "gate"
02:04:48 <elliott> and since all Nats have to come from mkNat, since you don't export MkNat,
02:04:56 <elliott> you can be sure that every Nat obeys the condition you ste
02:05:09 <elliott> which is type safety, of a sort: all your internal code can assume and work upon these invariants on the type
02:05:16 <elliott> it's just that it's actually implemented at runtime
02:05:22 <elliott> but it should simplify your code a lot
02:07:13 <j-invariant> elliott: also someone mentioned "Turing complete" which was annoying
02:07:57 <j-invariant> lol don't acll him on it, that will just make things worse
02:08:10 <j-invariant> he just hadn't seen what I was trying to explain
02:08:33 <elliott> i like calling people on things
02:08:40 <elliott> j-invariant: but i'll answer your question
02:08:53 <elliott> j-invariant: stop trying to make everything perfectly type-safe, this isn't how haskell is meant to be done
02:08:59 -!- impomatic has left (?).
02:09:04 <elliott> verify that types are essentially write, but handle actual errors as runtime errors, for instance via Maybe
02:09:21 <elliott> Haskell isn't meant to let you solve all bugs with the type system, that's a design decision, probably a conscious one
02:09:26 <elliott> So don't try and make it do that for you
02:10:49 <j-invariant> I can actually make this work IF there is no type level computation
02:11:00 <j-invariant> (on the other hand, I like type level computation..)
02:11:04 <elliott> j-invariant: try and forget dependent types exist entirely
02:11:08 <elliott> j-invariant: write your program
02:11:15 <elliott> j-invariant: and /then/ see what you can do to it
02:11:42 <elliott> j-invariant: do it in haskell
02:11:49 <j-invariant> Didn't work out, someone mentiond "use objects" and I gave up
02:12:00 <elliott> j-invariant: if you want an abstract syntax tree, make "data MyAST = ..."
02:12:04 <elliott> j-invariant: if you want an integer, use Integer
02:12:10 <elliott> j-invariant: avoid type parameters except for generic structures like lists and the like
02:12:20 <elliott> j-invariant: I dare you, try and write your polynomial code like that
02:12:26 <elliott> j-invariant: this may not be the nicest way to use it
02:12:33 <elliott> it's the only way you're gonna be able to code it
02:12:35 <elliott> j-invariant: nope, not allowed
02:12:40 <elliott> j-invariant: remove some type parameters until you don't have to any more
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02:32:43 <elliott> i need to figure out what program to write!
02:34:19 <augur> im writing one as we speak!
02:41:24 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `Change t a'
02:41:25 <elliott> against inferred type `Change t1 a1'
02:41:29 <elliott> j-invariant: if i get this error it means i'm winning right?
02:41:31 <j-invariant> 02:42 < Polytope> {x | P} means that x is in the set if and only if P is true.
02:41:31 <j-invariant> 02:43 < j-invariant> no set theory allows definitions like that
02:41:37 <elliott> NB: `Change' is a type function, and may not be injective
02:41:46 <elliott> j-invariant: more, i want more quotes, pastebin! :P
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02:42:05 <j-invariant> 02:26 < j-invariant> Axmann: { X subset of Y | P(X) } defines a set
02:42:05 <j-invariant> 02:26 < j-invariant> Axmann: { X | P(X) } does not
02:43:29 <elliott> Type declaration in a class must be a kind signature or synonym default
02:43:57 <elliott> j-invariant: is this the polytope of http://www.bash.org/?4916
02:44:24 <elliott> j-invariant: i doubt it, he mentioned first-year, so first-year uni student?
02:44:38 <elliott> so he'd have to have said that when he was like
02:44:45 <j-invariant> elliott: they are doing { x | P(x) } rather than { x in X | P(x) }
02:45:00 <elliott> j-invariant: P(x) = x in X /\ Q(x)
02:45:41 <elliott> P(x) = not P(x), problem Aristotle?
02:46:00 <elliott> j-invariant: isn't #math basically a cesspool anyway
02:46:07 <elliott> wow holy shit look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
02:46:09 <j-invariant> elliott: yeah seems that way, it's frustrating
02:46:14 <elliott> lol at the mirroring in the box
02:46:22 <elliott> oh my god look at the featured section what have they done
02:46:29 <elliott> Jimmy Wales is the co-founder of the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, along with Larry Sanger and others. Wikipedia succeeded an earlier attempt at an encyclopedia called Nupedia, but Nupedia grew slowly because of its onerous submission format, which required articles to be peer reviewed. Sanger was then introduced to the concept of a wiki, and thus Wikipedia was born. Wales continues to serve the Board of Trustees of the non-profit Wikimedia Foun
02:46:29 <elliott> dation, and he also co-founded Wikia, a for-profit wiki hosting site.
02:46:48 <j-invariant> todays featured picture http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Jimmy_Wales_Fundraiser_Appeal_edit.jpg
02:47:01 <elliott> * Cannot join #not-not-math (Channel is invite only).
02:47:14 <elliott> it should redirect to #math
02:49:10 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `Change t2 a2'
02:49:10 <elliott> against inferred type `FileChange'
02:49:10 <elliott> NB: `Change' is a type function, and may not be injective
02:49:15 <elliott> steadily heading towards failure
02:49:36 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm going to troll them
02:49:54 <pikhq> Minecraft crashed. I lost the crate I put my stuff in.
02:50:21 <elliott> j-invariant: that just submits to apple
02:50:24 <Vorpal> j-invariant, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjsWHtkd7Yk
02:50:38 <elliott> pikhq: internalise this phrase: Notch quality engineering.
02:50:46 <elliott> pikhq: Notch, you see, is possibly the worst programer of our time.
02:51:04 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Minecraft crashed. I lost the crate I put my stuff in. <-- since when did you start playing minecraft? :D
02:51:18 <elliott> pikhq: He got a good idea, somehow managed to develop it to near its current state (recent improvements have been by Jeb, who is competent), and then went into an ETERNAL LOOP OF FAIL.
02:51:23 <elliott> pikhq: For instance. A quote.
02:51:37 <elliott> pikhq: [[Oh, and I’ve finally committed the Music Blocks to the repository.
02:51:37 <elliott> (Oh, wait, no, I didn’t.. Doing so broke git, so we’re changing to svn because git is horrible and evil)]]
02:51:57 <elliott> pikhq: When Beta first came out, in multiplayer, when you died, items would *duplicate*.
02:52:03 <elliott> You would get two of everything you own lying around.
02:52:11 <elliott> But only half of them could be picked up.
02:52:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, see that link!
02:52:21 <elliott> pikhq: Additionally, leaf decay meant that single-player games ran at about 5 fps.
02:52:35 <elliott> pikhq: We are almost entirely certain that Notch does not even try and run the game before pushing updates.
02:53:52 <pikhq> All I lost was wood and cobblestone.
02:54:02 <Vorpal> j-invariant, indeed. There was harry potter theme on youtube too. Played manually
02:54:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, by walking sideways and hitting timed blocks
02:54:22 <pikhq> 've been hollowing out a mountain.
02:54:40 <pikhq> And mining the hell out of it.
02:54:52 <pikhq> I'm playing on peaceful, though.
02:55:19 <Vorpal> j-invariant, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f1ofoKylN4
02:55:19 <elliott> pikhq: real men play on hard
02:55:23 <j-invariant> there was a skeleton that killed me IN BROAD DAYLIGHT
02:55:32 <elliott> j-invariant: it just didn't want to burn
02:55:37 <elliott> j-invariant: if trees shelter them
02:55:42 <Vorpal> j-invariant, rather expertly played I have to say considering the limits of minecraft. I played that melody on piano
02:56:50 <elliott> aaaaargh fuckyoufuckyoufuckyoufuckyou FUCK GHC
02:56:53 <Vorpal> j-invariant, yes I have even downloaded and played with it locally
02:57:02 <elliott> YOU ARE NOT DOING THINGS I WANT YOU TO DO, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THESE THINGS ARE UNREASONABLE
02:57:08 <elliott> I DISLIKE THIS FACET OF YOU
02:57:50 <j-invariant> Vorpal: oh really! I tried that.. didn't work for me
02:58:15 <j-invariant> Vorpal: I thnink the savegame format has been changed recently
02:58:21 <Vorpal> j-invariant, no it hasn't
02:58:27 <Vorpal> j-invariant, it likely will though
02:58:29 <elliott> it changed a looong time ago
02:58:32 <Vorpal> j-invariant, did you unpack the zip?
02:58:57 <j-invariant> Vorpal: I'm being precise because the mistake is probably a very small detail
02:59:13 <Vorpal> j-invariant, oh right. unrar?
02:59:25 <Vorpal> j-invariant, you need to tell it to unpack with folder structure preserved
02:59:30 <Vorpal> j-invariant, rather than unpack flat
02:59:41 <Vorpal> check docs. iirc it is x instead of e
02:59:44 <Vorpal> or something like that
03:01:59 <Vorpal> j-invariant, if you ever played zelda oot you will find this awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRUSF3IlFqY
03:02:41 <j-invariant> Vorpal: one question.. how do you find all these videos so quickly?
03:02:52 <Vorpal> j-invariant, by searching youtube!
03:03:07 <elliott> you will notice it taking up 90% of your reddit time soon
03:03:21 <Vorpal> j-invariant, can you tell him not for all cases
03:03:36 <elliott> Meanwhile, nine year old girls play Minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/KPI02.jpg
03:03:51 <elliott> I like how the idea of a minecart floating in the void was scrapped.
03:04:05 <j-invariant> 03:03 < Axmann> so if {x | x is an integer above zero}, then |8|?
03:07:46 <Vorpal> j-invariant, happy to be of service
03:08:00 <pikhq> # C [r600_dri.so+0x55d0c] radeonEmitVec4+0x4c
03:08:10 <pikhq> It's hitting a bug in my driver.
03:08:51 <elliott> j-invariant: what, they're actually listening to me ...
03:09:03 <elliott> j-invariant: assure me that #math is never worthwhile, because I'm on the road to a ban
03:09:41 <j-invariant> 02:45 < j-invariant> I thought this was #math, not #interpretive-dance
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03:12:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, should have gotten yourself nvidia or intel :P
03:12:43 <Vorpal> j-invariant, 04:15: I agree
03:12:46 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm not going to bed so you shouldn't either, that's like
03:12:48 <elliott> a fundamental law of nature
03:12:59 <j-invariant> elliott: Some people have to get up in the morning
03:13:19 <elliott> j-invariant: what a strange concept
03:13:40 <elliott> j-invariant: anyone who has to get up in the morning on saturday probably has a terrible life i figure, so being sleep-deprived shouldn't make things significantly worse
03:14:39 <elliott> pikhq: I suggest switching to another driver, Minecraft takes precedence over all
03:14:50 <elliott> pikhq: I would redesign @ to be able to support a JVM if it couldn't, just so it could run Minecraft
03:17:53 * pikhq just won Minecraft.
03:18:13 <pikhq> Build a tiny room from wood planks. VICTORY SHALL BE YOURS.
03:19:36 <pikhq> Mobs can't get you. Voila, you are immortal.
03:19:54 <augur> since when do you come here
03:20:28 <copumpkin> but to do so I must first learn your habits
03:20:38 <elliott> pikhq: um i just mentioned how to win
03:20:45 <augur> elliott can explain my habits to you
03:20:50 <elliott> pikhq: you can do it with only taking two blocks
03:21:05 <elliott> pikhq: in fact, you can win in seconds
03:21:06 <elliott> pikhq: let me tell you how
03:21:14 <elliott> pikhq: take two blocks vertically from the ground
03:21:22 <elliott> pikhq: place them in front of you facing outside
03:21:25 <elliott> congratulations, you win Minecraft!
03:21:34 <copumpkin> what are the criteria for winning?
03:21:42 <elliott> copumpkin: being safe forever, obviously
03:21:49 <elliott> copumpkin: if there's nothing more to fight, obviously you win the game
03:21:57 <elliott> after you do the final boss, that's it, no more game, you win
03:22:05 <elliott> in this case, the final boss is two dirt blocks
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03:24:24 <elliott> pikhq: still playing peaceful like a wimp?
03:24:46 <pikhq> elliott: I won on hard!
03:24:55 <elliott> pikhq: Hard isn't actually very hard vs. normal
03:25:06 <elliott> pikhq: Really, if you have a house, you're fine; and you can even go around at night with a sword and armour.
03:25:19 <Sgeo> elliott, even a wooden sword?
03:25:20 <elliott> Just makes mining more interesting :P
03:25:27 <Sgeo> And wooden armor?
03:25:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Sure, but why would you make wooden anything?
03:25:31 <pikhq> elliott: BUT I MUST REMOVE ALL THE STONE FROM INSIDE THIS MOUNTAIN
03:25:32 <elliott> There is no wooden armour.
03:25:36 <elliott> pikhq: You can do that on hard.
03:25:48 <Sgeo> elliott, because you haven't started mining yet
03:25:50 <copumpkin> pikhq: to make the hall of the mountain king
03:25:59 <elliott> Sgeo: You make one pickaxe, take three stone, and you have a stone pickaxe.
03:26:04 <elliott> Congratulations, you never need to use wood tools ever again.
03:26:31 <Sgeo> elliott, unless you're careless and run out of stone pickaxe usage and stones
03:26:38 <pikhq> ... *Run out of stones*?
03:26:47 <elliott> A stone pickaxe lasts for enough time to mine hundreds and hundreds of cobbles.
03:27:04 <elliott> If you ever go "oops, out of cobbles, have to make a wood pickaxe", congratulations -- you are the first person to actually *lose* Minecraft.
03:27:54 <copumpkin> comex: so are you a minecraft-head too or are you just here for the esoteric languages nobody ever speaks about?
03:28:30 <Sgeo> Anyone want to shoot comex with an alarm clock?
03:28:41 <elliott> copumpkin: he's just in here because of ircnomic
03:29:01 <elliott> i don't actually know if comex does esolangs, but he never really talks, so, we just kinda accept him
03:29:07 <Sgeo> elliott, surely you mean Canada
03:29:25 <copumpkin> elliott: he used to use an uncommon language, at least
03:29:26 <pikhq> He's a pretty cool guy though. He doesn't afraid of anything!
03:30:01 <elliott> That terrible-looking thing.
03:30:24 <elliott> copumpkin: All comex's code that I've seen has been Python at least
03:30:55 <copumpkin> he's occasionally shown a tiny bit of interest in haskell
03:31:18 * copumpkin wonders if talking about comex for long enough will un-afk him
03:31:46 <elliott> yeah i think he's written...one haskell program?
03:33:11 <copumpkin> I want to get to the airport tomorrow morning
03:33:27 <copumpkin> and the bus to get to the airport starts up at 5:50
03:33:27 <pikhq> copumpkin: Yeeaaah, good luck with that.
03:33:34 <elliott> a person who needs to be up on Saturday
03:33:39 <elliott> j-invariant: ha ha, let's laugh at him
03:33:50 <copumpkin> elliott: hey, I get to go to warm places, at least :)
03:33:54 <Sgeo> I'm planning on waking up early on Saturday
03:34:03 <Sgeo> Assuming she contacts me tonight
03:34:06 <j-invariant> it sucks how everyone who asks a programming question seems to get an answer, except nobody knows how to solve my thing
03:34:06 <elliott> copumpkin: i want to live in iceland, i can't really relate
03:34:15 <elliott> j-invariant: your question is wrong :D
03:34:21 <pikhq> copumpkin: Boston's public transport is positively nice for "sane" hours. If you happen to need to be along the right routes.
03:34:37 <pikhq> copumpkin: 6:50 AM on Saturday? Weep!
03:34:38 <copumpkin> pikhq: yeah, except I live and work on the green line
03:34:42 <Sgeo> What's j-invariant's question?
03:34:52 <copumpkin> elliott: a colleague of mine is from iceland!
03:34:57 <copumpkin> and I'm listening to icelandic music right now
03:35:01 <elliott> copumpkin: wait wait wait let me guess their name
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03:35:42 <elliott> copumpkin: er are you sure, isn't that how icelandic names are formed :P
03:36:26 <copumpkin> I just ate 3 (THREE) weetabix. Should I eat more?
03:36:42 <elliott> copumpkin: it's [Firstname] [Parentfirstname][son|dóttir]
03:36:48 <elliott> what's their name, I'd be very surprised if it didn't fit that?
03:37:21 <elliott> copumpkin: then "X Yson" is correct, as i said
03:37:34 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name
03:37:44 <copumpkin> oh, I didn't realize your uppercase was a free variable
03:38:09 <elliott> hi, my name is ecks whyson
03:38:31 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like trying to guess if the sun's going to come up tomorrow.
03:39:06 <pikhq> elliott: Guessing that -son or -dóttir is the suffix for a Icelandic name.
03:39:13 <elliott> copumpkin: congratulations, you know the mayor of reykjavik
03:40:35 <elliott> (everything should be combined with maple syrup)
03:40:35 <pikhq> copumpkin will ate 40 weetabix. That's as many as four tens! And that's terrible.
03:40:39 <copumpkin> I haven't had them with maple syrup
03:41:00 <elliott> bacon with melted chocolate dripped in maple syrup is probably close to being liquid happiness-inflictor
03:41:14 <elliott> well apart from not being liquid
03:41:19 <pikhq> elliott: Surprisingly, bacon and chocolate do in fact go together very well.
03:41:25 <elliott> pikhq: i have this bacon chocolate here
03:41:33 <copumpkin> you know what also goes with bacon?
03:41:35 <pikhq> Unless you're Jewish. In which case you're fucked.
03:41:42 <elliott> no, you're wrong, the answer is more bacon
03:41:57 <elliott> copumpkin: vinegar + maple syrup!!!
03:42:23 <comex> elliott: does the Type 1 font program language count as esoteric?
03:42:27 <comex> I need it for this exploit.
03:42:44 <comex> it's a pretty good example of a turing tarpit
03:42:47 <elliott> comex: I totally won't tell anyone what it is if you say it in this publicly-logged channel.
03:43:01 <elliott> copumpkin won't tweet it either
03:43:22 <elliott> because it's secret! you can tweet it in a few minutes.
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03:43:59 <comex> I'm not even kidding, though; it feels like writing in an esolang.
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03:44:13 <elliott> comex: EXCUSE ME SORRY TELL US WHAT THE EXPLOIT IS OR GET BANNED
03:44:22 <elliott> famous people are allowed in here only if they give us inside scoops
03:44:53 <Sgeo> I don't think Notch would be allowed here even if he gave us both
03:45:16 <elliott> Maybe if he gave us a LOT of money.
03:45:44 <elliott> copumpkin: because he can't fucking code
03:45:53 <elliott> and he has the piece of shit autoupdate to more broken versions constantly without warning
03:46:06 <elliott> and he said git is horrible and evil and switched to svn because he fucked something up
03:46:10 <elliott> and and and he "frowns upon" modders and
03:46:14 <elliott> he is the most hateful person
03:46:32 <copumpkin> and in my land, that means he's good
03:46:38 <elliott> and he can't even fucking hire developers to code minecraft properly
03:46:47 <elliott> he hired devs ... to code on his supersekrit new project
03:46:55 <elliott> rather than, you know, the game people actually fucking play
03:47:24 <Sgeo> Didn''t a non-Notch person work on the new update?
03:47:26 <copumpkin> in my land, that just means he's going to try to get richer
03:47:35 <elliott> copumpkin: your land is strange
03:47:40 <elliott> Sgeo: the only non-Notch coder working on MC
03:47:43 <elliott> and also seemingly competent
03:48:07 <elliott> he basically did the whole new update
03:48:12 <Sgeo> Would I be an improvement or a ... opposite
03:48:12 <copumpkin> success = good and money = success
03:48:15 <elliott> more evidence that notch is a oajgoidfjg
03:48:18 <copumpkin> if you are poor, you are a bad person
03:48:20 <elliott> Sgeo: um i don't even want to think about that
03:48:39 <elliott> copumpkin: i'm just going to assume you're joking even though this is the internet
03:49:03 <copumpkin> I'm going to assume that you assume that because you're poor
03:49:09 <copumpkin> cause good people wouldn't assume that
03:49:26 <Sgeo> I'm not even going to bother making the obvious Star Trek comparision
03:49:47 <elliott> no star trek comparison is ever obvious
03:50:01 <copumpkin> now that I have consumed more weetabix
03:50:02 <Sgeo> elliott: what.
03:50:32 <copumpkin> should I sleep a bit and then wake up to go to the airport
03:50:42 <copumpkin> or just stay up as late as I normally do, and not sleep at all
03:50:52 * Sgeo decides that he's the wrong person to answer the question
03:50:58 <comex> Minecraft is a Java applet
03:50:58 <copumpkin> but then I'll want to sleep tomorrow
03:51:01 <elliott> copumpkin: you can eat more weetabix
03:51:03 <comex> you don't need to say anything else
03:51:05 <copumpkin> and I only have a couple of days out there
03:51:11 <elliott> but nobody uses the applet...
03:51:14 <elliott> you can't mod it or anything
03:51:16 <copumpkin> so it seems like a waste to fly away and sleep there
03:51:23 <elliott> why would anyone even use the applet
03:51:33 <elliott> copumpkin: sleep on the plane
03:51:55 <comex> my statement is still valid
03:52:00 <elliott> comex: Minecraft is A java?!?!?!
03:52:05 <Sgeo> You don't have to make random transfers on the plai1
03:52:07 <elliott> copumpkin: don't sleep ever
03:52:23 <elliott> copumpkin: more fucking weetabix
03:52:37 <Sgeo> me finds this hilarious
03:53:12 <Sgeo> elliott `>> [ clone. ]
03:53:13 <elliott> copumpkin: EAT SOME FUCKING WEETABIX FUCKFACE
03:53:36 <Sgeo> Why would I ever, ever do that
03:53:43 <Sgeo> Give elliott even 1 clone-child
03:53:56 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX FUCKING WEETABIX.
03:54:02 <Sgeo> ....that sounded far, far wronger than I meant
03:54:07 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX, FUCKING WEETABIX.
03:54:17 <elliott> copumpkin: WEETABIX OR BUST
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03:56:11 <elliott> copumpkin: WEETABIX OR WEETABIX
03:56:14 <cheater00> i never understood why people ate that
03:56:55 <cheater00> i could never get it, maybe i'm using them wrong
03:57:00 <elliott> serve it with more weetabix
03:57:15 <cheater00> i just put them in the milk and it gets soggy and crappy and boring
03:58:30 <elliott> Graph.graphFromEdges . Set.toList . Set.map (\c -> (c, c, deps c)) $ cs
03:58:30 <elliott> in reverse . map (\v -> case v2n v of (c,_,_) -> c) . Graph.topSort $ g
03:58:36 <elliott> right now it relies on changes themselves being Ord
03:58:40 <elliott> since they're used as the key
03:59:13 <Sgeo> It's sad that the only language or platform that has solved the module issue to my satisfaction thus far is JAVA
03:59:17 <copumpkin> I'm going to make them suck less in haskell someday
03:59:29 <elliott> if java has solved your module issue
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03:59:50 <elliott> copumpkin: i don't really mind the api, i just want you to fix the function :(
04:00:05 <elliott> maybe i'll abstract a way a change-ref (i.e. object id) and use that as the key.
04:00:13 <Sgeo> Java has no conflicting packages whose names are the same
04:00:21 <Sgeo> Or at least, if people weren't idiots, it wouldn't
04:00:31 <zzo38> Why can I not make a warning about converting a integer to a pointer without a cast, into error, without making other warnings also errors?
04:00:56 <elliott> Sgeo: the only solution to your problem is having the cryptographic hash of the API be the hash's name (tuomov has proposed this solution)
04:03:09 <zzo38> Can you just use #line if you want the compiler to emit an error message for compile-time-assertions?
04:03:21 <zzo38> (Such as arrays that conditionally have negative size)
04:03:31 <zzo38> (I have tried this, and it works)
04:04:14 <zzo38> The command in the new C specification that says you can make compile-time-assertions is unnecessary, I think.
04:05:01 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcvyaGhc1mg
04:05:32 <Sgeo> elliott, there's another solution, that I think Newspeak is heading in
04:05:49 <Sgeo> Have names not need to be unique within a system.
04:06:19 <elliott> Sgeo: that doesn't really solve any problem unless you're more specific.
04:06:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: What are you trying to make?
04:07:03 <Sgeo> Suppose you have two packages named Foobar. No packakages that use either Foobar have the name Foobar forcefully encoded in
04:07:07 <Sgeo> Just as documentation
04:07:23 <Sgeo> The user might call one copy of Foobar Foobar_to_do_this and the other Foobar_to_do_that
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04:07:36 <Sgeo> Hook each up to wherever it needs to go in the IDE
04:07:37 <elliott> Sgeo: The problem is, of course, that every time you use a module at the top level, you have to give it EVERY FUCKING MODULE THERE IS.
04:08:38 <Sgeo> No, just the ones it needs. And if you don't have duplicate names in a system yet, the IDE does it automatically perhaps
04:08:57 <elliott> Sgeo: (1) That's what I meant. Consider something that needs 30 modules.
04:09:26 <elliott> Sgeo: (2) So basically, duplicate names are REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING to the point where you'd never want them anyway (and you're handwaving language issues by diverting them to some "IDE" that is well beyond the well-defined accepted scope of an IDE)
04:10:06 <zzo38> elliott: In what programming language? Java?
04:10:30 <Sgeo> Note: I am not on the Newspeak team. Just imagining where I think it would go
04:10:51 <zzo38> OK I found it on Wikipedia now.
04:11:22 <Sgeo> elliott, instead of saying "IDE", is a config file better?
04:11:34 <elliott> Name conflicts are still a horrific pain with that system.
04:11:46 <Sgeo> elliott, at least they can be dealt with
04:11:53 <elliott> For instance, a module can't use a module X, and also use another module that wants a different module called X.
04:12:20 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, it can?
04:12:24 <zzo38> (I avoid using Google whenever possible, so sometimes I search for things on Wikipedia instead.)
04:13:13 <Sgeo> Hook up other module's X to the X it wants, and main module's X to the X it wants
04:13:41 <elliott> I see, so you get a horrible tangle if two commonly-used modules use different modules named X.
04:13:48 <elliott> Not to mention that EVEN IF YOU CONFIGURE IT CORRECTLY,
04:13:57 <elliott> you're going to have a world of confusion as you try and talk about it:
04:14:04 <elliott> "So X1 does blah, and ..." "Which one is X1 again?"
04:14:08 <elliott> "The one that does X." "They both do X."
04:14:17 <zzo38> That is why they need to add a command to rename modules.
04:14:23 <elliott> "Uhh, the one that Poophead wrote." "Oh. Is that the one with the API that looks like turds or the API that looks like turdy turds?"
04:14:35 <elliott> "*looks at the code* No, that's the other one."
04:14:42 <zzo38> (Like the ALIAS command in Visual Basic, I guess.)
04:18:00 <Sgeo> elliott, so it's not perfect, it can still be better than the rest
04:18:16 <elliott> I don't remember the last time I actually saw a naming conflict.
04:18:27 <elliott> I have to wonder why you are obsessed with them.
04:19:02 <Sgeo> Because the idea of their existence horrifies me
04:19:15 <elliott> Are you sure you want to use that word.
04:19:19 <elliott> Does it not strike you as too strong
04:19:41 <Sgeo> Does the word hyperbole strike you as a bit too..
04:20:10 <elliott> Considering you've talked about some random pseudoscientific book as making you physically ill, I really don't think I can assume hyperbole any more.
04:23:33 <elliott> I wonder if the archive of tuomov's blog is complete.
04:23:52 <elliott> Perhaps I could ask tuomov for the missing posts if not.
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04:37:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Here is tuomov's post about APIs and modules. http://tuomov.bitcheese.net/b/archives/2007/07/16/T22_41_22
04:42:17 <elliott> Yeah, the archive is not complete it seems ...
04:43:48 <Sgeo> And not in the best of moods
04:45:13 <elliott> Oh man, scapegoat is gonna rock.
04:49:22 <elliott> http://bugs.darcs.net/issue64 <-- finally fucking resolved
04:49:45 <Sgeo> I don't care right now
04:50:09 <Sgeo> Darcs is anti-tf8?
04:50:12 <Sgeo> Oh, you said resulved
04:50:41 <elliott> Sgeo: You seem...disturbed.
04:50:50 <Sgeo> She's still not online
04:52:47 <elliott> Missing the bus and calling at the last limit ... (presumably) implying she'd be online and then not being so... Hmmmmmmmm.
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04:53:15 <Sgeo> She didn't know that it takes me so long to get to the mall
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04:56:43 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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05:34:02 <pikhq_> I need a new graphics card.
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05:34:49 <pikhq> With ATi, I've got a choice of: slightly unstable drivers, or slightly unstable drivers *that fucking glitch like crazy* (those being the "official" drivers).
05:39:03 <pikhq> Seriously, the official drivers suck balls.
05:40:53 <pikhq> quintopia: It needs to be said often.
05:41:28 <pikhq> Also, Flash is a monstrosity and Adobe should be murdered for it.
05:41:53 <pikhq> I don't care if it's impractical to murder an international megacorp, either!
05:44:11 <quintopia> well, bombing their headquarters doesn't seem so infeasible at least
05:45:52 <quintopia> < sean_> inglip would kick zalgo's ass
05:48:20 <Sgeo> quickly, bring pie
05:50:04 <Ilari> Hah... Another piece of drivel promoting fantasy "mediterrainian diet".
05:52:27 <Ilari> "extra virgin olive oil and canola oil in place of saturated and trans fats" ... Yeah, right... Maybe they use _some_ olive oil (cold-pressed)... But sure no rancid-at-the-shelves canola/rapeseed oil...
05:53:04 <Ilari> And then there's the French paradox...
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06:05:43 <Ilari> French Paradox: Why do French have so little heart disease even if their saturated fat consumption is so high?
06:07:43 <pikhq> Answer: correlation ≠ causation.
06:17:36 <Sgeo> I'm certain my away message is a quote from some Simpsons book, a guide to either Simpsons episodes or to Springfield
06:17:40 <Sgeo> But Google turns up nothing
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06:40:22 <pikhq> Star Wars trilogies are getting yet *another* modified rerelease. Though the prequels probably can't be made much *worse* by Lucas, I wonder how fucking awful he's going to be to the original trilogy this time.
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07:10:43 <Ilari> Lagerholm estimate is now below 7 days... The estimate for today will come in about 1.5 hours... But I doubt it is going to be more optimistic...
07:10:54 <Ilari> Current burnrate in used /8 per month: 1.84
07:16:32 <Ilari> HURRR... http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/fig25.png
07:16:47 <Ilari> Is that some sort of data processing error???
07:18:16 <Ilari> And for extra fun, APNIC seems to be handing out about half of the addresses...
07:26:54 <pikhq> Probably more pessimistic, if anything.
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08:42:04 <Ilari> Now the estimate is today (of course, being Saturday, it is not likely that anything happens before monday...
08:42:48 <Ilari> Last 5 days large allocations: 6.5Mi
08:45:46 <Ilari> Okay, these predictions are quite messed up...
08:49:49 <Ilari> The fastest case is APNIC having requested the blocks on Friday (and IANA has not yet processed the request...)
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14:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> YouTube comments will never cease to destroy my faith in humanity.
14:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEATei2wewY&feature=related
14:44:39 <Phantom_Hoover> First listen to the soundtrack. Then read the comments.
14:51:19 <Sgeo> I was wondering where I heard that song
14:59:48 <Ilari> Heh... I just remembered that my earlier estimate of IANA IPv4 depletion estimate was mid-January... Lagerholm estimate is now "any moment now"...
15:01:34 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it'll be all over reddit
15:09:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IaJ8bec8fg
15:09:29 <Sgeo> Is that a bug?
15:13:50 <Sgeo> On a different vid: "I don't know why this never occurred to me. What a great method. xD Once buckets are fixed in multiplayer, I'm going to use this on the obsidian tower I'm building."
15:13:58 <Sgeo> What's wrong with buckets in multiplayer?
15:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly how mathematical is the average CS curriculum?
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15:34:04 <fizzie> I don't know about average, but here it's: not very, unless you deliberately choose courses to make it so.
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16:03:29 * Sgeo is in a good mood
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16:11:06 <Sgeo> Although I did show her Cybertown a while ago
16:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, no. If that were the case, Sgeo would be far too busy being paralysed with joy.
16:11:10 <Sgeo> Just briefly though
16:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> EXTREMELY GOOD ADVICE: do NOT attempt to serenade her. Particularly not with "I see a red robe and I want to paint it black".
16:12:28 <Sgeo> I don't know if she was bored. I do know she was once bored when I was describing some computer thing. And it's not like we haven't done anything that bored me
16:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you are only allowed to liveblog in the event of impending trollpocalypse.
16:13:49 <Sgeo> Did I ever mention the time that I took a journal to school and wrote about what happened as, or shortly after, it happened?
16:16:29 <quintopia> that sounds like the most boring journal ever
16:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. being sent to a 5th-rate college because his dad is a total smeghead.
16:17:21 <Sgeo> But you'd think I was a pervert perhaps
16:17:29 <Sgeo> Also, this was in highschool
16:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, o god please tell me you weren't writing down your fantasies.
16:18:19 <quintopia> and please say they didn't involve urination
16:20:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, please tell me he wasn't writing down his urolagnic fantasies.
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16:20:40 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: this program is linked into the market-o-matic, thinking that i claim no special effort to keep solaris his sign of the
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16:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, please tell me he wasn't writing down his urolagnic fantasies.
16:21:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: claimed that the victim) subject:re: `which foo` error message
16:22:30 <Sgeo> "Today, 3/9/07, begins my Era of Documentation. A while ago, my Dad told me not to use LiveJournal as a private journal. I wish I disobeyed him sooner."
16:23:13 <oklopol> and here in turku it's even less mathematical than in helsinki
16:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Why is this computer unable to competently hold onto a wireless network.
16:23:52 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: why no wired connection
16:24:01 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, when I'm on Linux and at school, I have the same problem
16:24:17 <Gregor> Wow, Weetabix looks extremely gross :P
16:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, because I live in a hundred-year-old house and as such it was not designed with easy Ethernet cable access in mind.
16:24:37 <Gregor> "Here is a dense, solid block of cereal product. Digest it."
16:24:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: oh i know how that goes :/
16:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, wait, you actually disobeyed your father over something>
16:25:20 <oklopol> Gregor: no u look like a solid block
16:25:25 <Sgeo> Since 2007 or so, all the time
16:25:53 <Sgeo> Slightly before
16:25:59 <pikhq> Gregor: Holy crap, it's Industrial Food Product.
16:26:11 <Sgeo> I didn't say I disobey him on everything
16:26:13 <pikhq> Well. More so than the rest of an American diet.
16:26:29 <Sgeo> Just things like having my name on Facebook, talking to people about him, etc.
16:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> They thought "Farming" did not indicate how rustic they were.
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16:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> That alone should indicate that you ignore anyone who says it's a good place to study computers.
16:28:04 <oklopol> well computer science is a bit gay anyway
16:28:06 <pikhq> ... He goes to a college called *Farmingdale*?
16:28:13 <quintopia> it sounds like a knock-off social networking game
16:28:13 <Gregor> oklopol: Farming is not.
16:28:25 <Sgeo> pikhq, no, it's located in a place called Farmingdale
16:28:49 <oklopol> i'm not sure what that was an argument for, exactly
16:29:03 <Gregor> oklopol: And there's nothing more manly than a man in another man's embrace!
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16:29:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: My intelligence informs me that it's SUNY Farmingdale, or formerly, Long Island Agricultural and Technical Institute.
16:29:28 <quintopia> let's all give up computers, move to PA, stop shaving our beards, and farm!
16:29:57 <pikhq> oklopol: Computer science is gay? Okay, then. Where's a phallus...
16:30:13 <Sgeo> pikhq, well, it's... what I meant is that it's not called that because the college just decided "Hey, Farmingdale is an awesome name for a college", which is what I thought you meant.
16:30:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Dear God man, you'd have a more respectible education at Devry. And those people ride the short bus!
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16:31:05 * Sgeo gets offended at pikhq
16:31:37 <pikhq> Your dad offends my sensibilities!
16:31:40 <quintopia> he may be offensive...but he may be right...
16:31:56 <oklopol> respectable education is a bit gay anyway
16:32:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Except apparently Sgeo's.
16:32:16 <Gregor> pikhq: My dad tells me he regularly has this conversation at work: "My son got into {Devry,University of Phoenix,Other Boxtop University}." "That's nice, my son is a doctoral student at Purdue." "*fume*"
16:32:38 <Sgeo> "This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds."
16:32:48 <pikhq> Gregor: ... Who would be *proud* of being a student at one of those boxtop universities?
16:32:52 <quintopia> oklopol: you're slowly convincing me that I should go gay. keep it up and I'll soon be asking you to undress...
16:32:58 <pikhq> Gregor: My community college has stricter requirements.
16:33:22 <oklopol> quintopia: i'm always naked when i'm on irc
16:33:28 <pikhq> oklopol: Pencils are phallic, and we know what Freud has to say about phallic objects.
16:33:40 <Gregor> quintopia: But ... he's some scrawny little Finnish twink :P
16:34:27 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: one you get a scholarship to by mailing weetabix tops
16:35:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: One of a few for-profit colleges which exist *largely* for the purpose of soaking up federal financial aid from students.
16:35:09 <oklopol> well, i was recently told i'm "surprisingly fat" when i told them my weight, i'm not sure how to interpret that
16:35:26 * Gregor is trying to remember which boxtop university it is that's in the /mall/ in Portland.
16:35:44 <pikhq> You can get into them if you are capable of breathing, just about, and their degrees have similar value to a high school diploma.
16:36:00 <Gregor> Apollo College, that's right.
16:36:18 <Gregor> When you go to college in a mall, then you need to reconsider your life decisions :P
16:36:25 <Sgeo> pikhq, is there a way to confirm that my college isn't one of them?
16:36:42 <Sgeo> [It doesn't sound like one. I think]
16:36:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: SUNY isn't one of them, it's just a piss-poor choice for you.
16:36:54 <oklopol> Gregor: you don't have to move to find work after college, the mall and the uni have a deal
16:37:46 <Sgeo> Easy commute + not as competitive
16:38:02 <quintopia> oklopol: i do happen to be naked at the moment, and for some reason my bathwater won't get above lukewarm today :/
16:38:08 <oklopol> i wish we had even the slightest bit of competition here
16:38:21 <Sgeo> quintopia, you're on your computer in the bath?
16:38:40 <Sgeo> oklopol, my dad's convinced that I have difficulties getting homework done
16:38:55 <Sgeo> As much as I wish I could say I thought he was wrong...
16:38:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a bit like getting a CS degree from The Institute of Everything Un-Technical. Even if the institute is the best thing ever, *you're a fucking moron* for getting a CS degree there.
16:39:00 <quintopia> ("motorola milestone" in other parts of the world)
16:39:21 <oklopol> Sgeo: however, if you went to a competitive university, you might start doing homework, because it would have a point.
16:39:25 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> oklopol, my dad's convinced that I have difficulties getting homework done ← I have difficulties getting homework done. Getting homework done doesn't matter.
16:39:29 <oklopol> the point being the competition
16:40:07 <oklopol> well i suppose you might drop out if you sucked ass
16:40:57 <quintopia> sgeo: i recommend you transfer somewhere better at the earliest available opportunity
16:41:34 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: at uni, it matters for the first few years tho
16:41:52 <oklopol> after that, you'll have your own research to do anyway, so homework is just a sidejob
16:42:37 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well no but i mean whereever you'll go
16:42:57 <oklopol> assuming Sgeo's university is as crappy as i hear
16:43:32 <quintopia> it's not the uni that's crappy, it's his program
16:44:38 <pikhq> ... Holy crap they don't even *offer* computer science.
16:44:49 <pikhq> They offer "computer programming & information systems".
16:45:09 <Sgeo> They had a CS program once
16:45:12 <oklopol> pikhq: that's also the case in turku :\ although partly because our math department has all the good cs
16:45:50 <pikhq> "Data structures" is an optional class and it's 300 level!
16:46:14 <pikhq> It requires business classes!
16:46:19 <Sgeo> I don't think Data Structures is optional
16:46:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm looking at the degree requirements. Only required in the "programming track".
16:47:25 -!- charlvn has joined.
16:47:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW: data structures in most CS programs is a freshman course.
16:47:53 <Sgeo> ....what? Seriously?
16:48:13 <quintopia> yes you seriously need to transfer asap
16:49:00 <pikhq> And *holy God* the math requirements are light.
16:49:01 <Sgeo> Can I get a Bachlor's here, and then do stuff at a more interesting place?
16:49:10 <Sgeo> pikhq, there are math requirements?
16:49:18 <pikhq> Calc I and "Probability methods".
16:49:30 <oklopol> calc 1 is like some precalc shit or?
16:49:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Most places I've looked, a CS degree gets you a math minor for free.
16:49:42 <quintopia> sgeo: just transfer now and get a bachelor's elsewhere
16:49:46 <oklopol> "here's the rules you learned in high school PLUS 5 MORE!"
16:49:53 <pikhq> oklopol: It's the first of three courses on the calculus of integrals and derivatives.
16:50:08 <quintopia> pikhq: i got a dual major with just like two or so more classes
16:50:27 <pikhq> quintopia: Yeah, I'm getting a math degree for 3 extra credit hours.
16:50:39 <fizzie> At least around here you can't include the same course (credit-point-wise) in multiple "modules".
16:51:03 <pikhq> quintopia: But if I literally *didn't try*, I would have a math minor.
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16:51:07 <fizzie> So getting a second minor is automatical +20 or +30 credits or however much it was.
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16:51:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Here it's entirely accepted practice.
16:51:34 <quintopia> they only require that you take X extra hours that aren't for the primary major
16:51:35 <fizzie> Anyway, it's a bit problematical in fact when you're taking two minors (or a major and minor) that have a lot of overlapping classes, since you then need to invent credit points for the second.
16:51:46 <quintopia> electives are completely double-dippable
16:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> oklopol: It's the first of three courses on the calculus of integrals and derivatives. ← so you do polynomials and that's it?
16:52:04 <Sgeo> So, there's no way I could just get a Bachelor's here, and ..whatever the next thing is at Stony Brook?
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16:52:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, you do 2 dimensional integrals and derivatives. And that's about it.
16:52:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: You would have serious trouble going into grad school with that.
16:52:44 <oklopol> fizzie: it's kinda weird there's actually no way to get a major from both math and cs, since there are just not enough courses
16:52:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, on functions of single arguments?
16:53:06 <oklopol> i mean, if you've done the stuff required for the degree, why can't you have it...
16:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, what, so you mean you only work with f(x) rather than f(x,y)?
16:53:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah.
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16:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, erm, here in Scotland you never even touch on multivariate functions.
16:54:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Calc III covers calculus on multivariate functions.
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16:54:49 <oklopol> we have a course called multivariate functions, but it's given by a very old guy, so it's way too hard for everybody
16:54:49 <pikhq> Aand calc II is a mishmash of various topics that didn't get covered in calc I.
16:55:17 <oklopol> the old dudes still think like students should actually work for the courses
16:55:32 <pikhq> Sgeo: You can take "Foundations of Programming I" *or* "Programming in Visual Basic".
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16:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I can only conclude that it is educating farmers in CS applicable to sheep feeders.
16:56:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: Frankly, I'd be worried about your courses *transferring*.
16:56:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's not even a CS degree!
16:57:15 -!- charlvn has joined.
16:58:00 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember how many universities there are in Edinburgh, fails.
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16:59:07 <oklopol> i was there just recently, we could've played the bagpipe together
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16:59:58 <oklopol> fuck do i know what you ppl do in your spare time
17:00:34 <Gregor> Almost as good as accordions.
17:00:39 <pikhq> You're also required at Sgeo's school to take "Management Theories and Practices"...
17:00:41 -!- charlvn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
17:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, not when you can't go anywhere near the city centre without hearing them!
17:00:55 <pikhq> ... He's required to take more business classes than math classes!
17:01:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your degree is a joke.
17:03:07 <oklopol> haha i wonder if they teach Sgeo to mind his own business haha
17:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> (Also, why do you Americans not have universities? Why is it all colleges?)
17:03:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: SUNY Farmingdale.
17:03:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And we do have universities; we just tend to refer to any degree-granting institution as a "college".
17:03:58 <pikhq> Including universities.
17:04:05 <oklopol> Sgeo: which do you regret more, going to fd or mentioning it here? :D
17:04:29 <Sgeo> Although there were some nice things social-wise
17:04:38 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIU colleges here are either constituents of universities or places that do some kind of vocational training.
17:04:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Colleges are *also* constituents of universities here...
17:05:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: In addition to being any degree-granting institution.
17:05:09 <Gregor> <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And we do have universities; we just tend to refer to any degree-granting institution as a "college". // uhh ... no?
17:05:22 <Gregor> Well, yeah, I guess so ... implicitly.
17:05:31 <Gregor> You say "I go to college" even if you go to a university.
17:05:46 <pikhq> You say "college degree" even if it's from a univeristy.
17:06:00 <pikhq> You actually *call* it a college even if it's a university...
17:07:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Arguably, even our public universities are for-profit.
17:07:21 <oklopol> usa has for-profit free food for the poor organizations
17:07:23 <coppro> here, colleges are not universities
17:07:34 <pikhq> The USA also has for-proift prisons.
17:07:57 <coppro> pikhq: inmates don't get to vote right?
17:08:08 <pikhq> coppro: It depends on the state, actually.
17:10:19 <Gregor> "Two states—Maine and Vermont—allow prison inmates to vote."
17:10:39 <coppro> (inmates got the vote here thanks to the Charter(
17:11:02 <Gregor> Disenfranchisement is considered elsewhere to be part of the punishment for crime *shrugs*
17:11:11 <Gregor> If people actually cared about voting, then it would be a legit punishment :P
17:11:30 <coppro> the problem is that by denying inmates the right to vote, you effectively deny any useful commentary on the prison system
17:11:30 <pikhq> Two states disenfranchise all felons. Even after their sentence is done.
17:11:42 <coppro> since the only users of a prison get no say
17:11:58 <pikhq> Kentucky and Virginia.
17:12:14 <coppro> that sounds surprisingly liberal for texas
17:12:40 <pikhq> Texas isn't completely *nuts*.
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17:16:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yup!
17:16:19 <Gregor> cheater00: Push button, receive weetabix D'AWWWW
17:16:20 <quintopia> coppro: most prison inmates never voted a day in their life, and even if they all did, they'd still be in the minority
17:16:45 <pikhq> It's only old people that vote in the US.
17:17:14 <pikhq> So, the politics tends to trail decades behind.
17:17:16 <impomatic> We vote with student riots in the U.K.
17:17:17 <quintopia> hence the AARP being the biggest most powerful PAC
17:17:33 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:22:22 <quintopia> =old people's society and =lobbying organization
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17:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, that is quite possibly the most hilarious thing I have heard about US politics.
17:24:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Your country. Is ruled. By an old people's organisation.
17:24:44 <quintopia> all the major politicians are old people too. at least the president is young
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17:37:25 <Vorpal> fun "microcode error detected" from wlan card. rmmod and modprobe worked
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17:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq was telling Sgeo that his college is the worst ever, in detail.
18:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (Turns out they do more management courses than mathematical ones.)
18:00:18 <elliott> 02:21:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they already updated Painterly.
18:00:18 <elliott> 02:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> That is astonishing.
18:03:49 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I've never worn a kilt, either. <-- YOU'RE NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!
18:05:18 <elliott> 08:24:17 <Gregor> Wow, Weetabix looks extremely gross :P
18:05:18 <elliott> 08:24:37 <Gregor> "Here is a dense, solid block of cereal product. Digest it."
18:09:31 -!- Behold has joined.
18:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> 08:37:46 <Sgeo> Easy commute + not as competitive ← wait, surely you could, y'know, live away from home.
18:09:58 <elliott> UNTHINKABLE HIS DAD WOULD BEAT HIM INTO A BLOODY PULP
18:10:01 <elliott> 08:32:52 <quintopia> oklopol: you're slowly convincing me that I should go gay. keep it up and I'll soon be asking you to undress...
18:10:52 <Sgeo> I was never allowed to go to sleep-away camp as a kid
18:10:58 <Sgeo> My parents thought I wouldn't eat.
18:11:25 <elliott> I need live advice, people: do I laugh, or do I curl into a ball and cry on Sgeo's behalf?
18:11:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:11:29 <elliott> I can do both, but I need to know the order.
18:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "No, Seth, you can't go to camp, you won't eat." "But I LIKE eating!" "Not at camp, you won't."
18:11:47 <oerjan> elliott: simultaneously
18:11:52 <elliott> Isn't it well-known that Sgeo doesn't actually like eating at all.
18:11:59 <Sgeo> What elliott said.
18:12:01 <elliott> 08:36:25 <Sgeo> pikhq, is there a way to confirm that my college isn't one of them?
18:12:02 <elliott> 08:36:42 <Sgeo> [It doesn't sound like one. I think]
18:12:02 <elliott> Let me think... SUNY... STATE UNIVERSITY of New York ... hmm ... state university ... hmmmmmmmmmm
18:12:15 <elliott> Probably an independent, for-profit corporation.
18:12:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't know this ...?
18:13:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because it comes up all the time?
18:13:32 <Sgeo> My sleep issues are relatively recent!
18:13:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: next, breathing!
18:13:47 <elliott> "But my eating issues you can RELY on!
18:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so you can't live in student accommodation because you won't eat?
18:14:56 <elliott> i can set up a bot to order you to eat at regular intervals
18:15:09 <Sgeo> My step-mom's convinced that my unwillingness to organize and throw stuff out in this messy house is an indication that I can't live on my own
18:15:17 <Sgeo> [My step-mom's crazier than my dad]
18:15:36 <elliott> Sgeo's step mother has never seen student accommodation.
18:15:41 <elliott> And believes it to be a place of cleanliness and perfection
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18:16:34 <Sgeo> "You're not allowed to date non-Jewish girls" "You're ill"
18:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that offer to kidnap your father is now extended to murdering your stepmother.
18:17:00 <elliott> "You're not allowed to date non-Jewish girls" <-- bitch
18:17:41 <Gregor> Since when is Sgeo even Jewish?
18:17:56 <Sgeo> She also says that that my mom wanted me to only date Jewish girls. While I think my mom would prefer it slightly, I don't think she was that strict about it"
18:18:01 <Gregor> Besides, the Jewish side of my family says things more like "You're not allowed to date Jewish girls."
18:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, why did you not just spit in her face at this point?
18:19:14 <elliott> Bonus points for not melting your tongue and gums firts
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18:21:04 <elliott> Sgeo: i'm not sure if it's been mentioned enough but you should transfer to another college right now before it's too late and you get a useless degree that gets you nowhere at all ever
18:21:06 * oerjan now imagines Sgeo always wearing hasidic garb
18:21:31 <elliott> alternatively drop out because you could just scribble some crayons on a piece of blank paper and get a degree of similar usefulness
18:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, say you're going on a date with KT-AT and NEVER COME BACK
18:21:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TRYING TO OFFER SERIOUS LIFE ADVICE HERE
18:22:49 <oklopol> i'm sure Sgeo is aware that he could just leave if he liked
18:23:04 <Sgeo> But my degree is almost done!
18:23:04 <elliott> oklopol: i'm not sure he's aware that it's the only sane option
18:23:18 <elliott> Sgeo: And...then what? You're not gonna get into grad school with it ...
18:23:37 <elliott> Sgeo: If you transfer it's not like you're going to have to start at square one...
18:23:38 <Sgeo> Not even at another SUNY school?
18:23:46 <Sgeo> Can I get a degree and then transfer?
18:23:58 <elliott> You see, you get the degree when you *finish* college.
18:24:02 <elliott> You transfer while you are *in* college.
18:24:33 <Sgeo> Can I do all the required courses for a degree, and just not get the degree?
18:24:50 <oklopol> they don't just automatically give it to you
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18:24:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Choice 1: (1) Finish useless degree. (2) Be unable to get into grad school. Choice 2: (1) Transfer to another college. (2) Finish good degree. (3) Get into grad school. Choice 3: what you said but why would you want to do that
18:25:25 <Sgeo> Because the senior project sounds like something I need to do. Have a real project.
18:25:41 <elliott> Because there won't be any "real projects" in another college ...
18:26:37 <quintopia> it sounds like a drastic solution i know, but when all of #esoteric vehemently agrees...well, desperate times call for it
18:26:50 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, since beginning of 2008
18:27:05 <elliott> You need to get out of that shithole.
18:27:26 <quintopia> as you said, sunk cost. best not to sink anymore
18:27:40 <elliott> Because if you sink... you DROWN </overblown nautical metaphor>
18:28:05 <Sgeo> It felt like a summer that wouldn't end
18:28:24 <Sgeo> [I hate summers]
18:28:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, um, hm
18:28:40 <elliott> It was one of those freakish year-long summers.
18:29:02 <Sgeo> elliott, just half a year
18:29:07 <elliott> quintopia: do we need to go and tell sgeo to transfer in person
18:29:19 <elliott> let's all do this together!
18:29:21 <Phantom_Hoover> What were you doing that meant you sat around for the end of 2007?
18:29:35 <quintopia> elliott: fuck that. that's more work even than filling out the transfer papers for him and hell if i'm doing that.
18:29:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, my step-mom and dad wanted me to go to Israel for a little while. That didn't happen.
18:29:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BECAUSE HE'S A GOOD JEW
18:30:08 <elliott> quintopia: Yeah, but he'll give us less horrific stories if he gets out of there, and that's worth anything.
18:30:50 <quintopia> well, i suppose i would feel awful good about helping someone so desperately in need
18:31:00 <quintopia> and as long as you're buying the tix...
18:31:33 <quintopia> somewhere near farmingdale ny obviously
18:31:48 <oklopol> just like the rest of you people WHO I THOUGHT WERE MY FRIENDS
18:32:00 <elliott> quintopia: ok we'll meet him AT the college then
18:32:13 <elliott> i know his name and what he looks like when dressed in a fursuit^Wblood drop costue
18:32:16 <Sgeo> I wonder how my dad would react if he met you
18:32:29 <elliott> Sgeo: We'll never find out, because he'd be unconscious before he realised.
18:33:03 <oklopol> yeah he and quinn could have a beer together
18:33:04 <quintopia> because he likes people who are smarter than him, right?
18:33:13 <elliott> yeah totally that's why he treats Sgeo like a king
18:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I know what his head looks like when he's not in a bloodsuit.
18:33:29 <elliott> quintopia: okay, so, if we meet him at farmingdale, we need to throw him into the back of a truck
18:33:35 <elliott> and drive him to a good college
18:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> He wouldn't like me, because I am extremely insufferable.
18:33:46 <elliott> go up to the first official-looking person we see
18:33:58 <elliott> "This poor man was in SUNY FARMINGDALE."
18:34:03 <quintopia> elliott: you rent the truck, i'll drive with my AMURRCAN driver's license
18:34:04 <elliott> "And he didn't even KNOW the implications."
18:34:10 <elliott> They will look horrified, and take him in.
18:34:22 <elliott> quintopia: how does that plan sound to you
18:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, clearly you should chloroform him because you are stunted by malnourishment and as such he will suspect nothing.
18:34:47 <oklopol> why don't people kidnap each other just for giggles anymore
18:34:50 <quintopia> just to see the look on the poor official looking person's face
18:35:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: SGEO KNOWS WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE STUNTED BY MALNOURISHMENT
18:35:05 <elliott> oklopol: i miss the good ol' days
18:35:25 <quintopia> it's true. sgeo is mentally malnourished in farmingdale
18:35:37 <elliott> 09:17:16 <impomatic> We vote with student riots in the U.K.
18:35:40 <elliott> that would be the greatest voting system
18:35:48 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, naw, elliott is physically malnourished due to the Harrying of the North.
18:35:49 <elliott> "WE DEMAND HIGHER PENSIONS FOR THE ELDERLY"
18:36:19 <quintopia> that...is how politics works in the U.S.
18:36:32 <elliott> and do they actually count as votes
18:37:14 <elliott> i suggest a riot on sgeo's house
18:37:22 <elliott> mostly because i dunno how you'd vote in sgeo's house
18:37:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, votes are made by bludgeoning Sgeo's father and stepmother.
18:38:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sgeo doesn't live with his stepmother.
18:38:13 <quintopia> and we say "we're all having a vote on whether sgeo has to transfer"
18:38:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THINGS I AM RAPIDLY TIRING OF: Remakes of random music in Minecraft.
18:38:19 <quintopia> we'll even let his parents vote too
18:38:37 <elliott> wait does Sgeo get to vote
18:39:10 <quintopia> elliott: let's be fair and let everyone in the household vote. there can't be more than 5 of them and there are at least 20 of us...
18:39:19 <elliott> quintopia: isn't it just Sgeo and his father.
18:39:23 <oklopol> how do you what we're going to vote
18:39:36 <quintopia> if so, they can both vote, why not?
18:39:55 <quintopia> i would hate to be accused of being unfair
18:39:58 <Sgeo> Just me and my dad
18:40:05 <Sgeo> Bye, going to meet up with KT-AT
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18:40:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So I've been thinking about yellowstone (Notch feckin stole blue for lapis).
18:41:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The opening of this video is the most amazing thing ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewFrgDPCgGA
18:41:27 <elliott> Watch it. You will not regret it.
18:44:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opuQmQy87x4
18:49:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have an idea for an RNG in Minecraft.
18:50:03 <elliott> As in, using only existing blocks.
18:51:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: AFAIK nobody has made an RNG in Minecraft before.
18:51:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: One that seeds itself.
18:51:47 <elliott> i.e., if you run the circuit multiple times, you'll get different results.
18:51:53 <elliott> Even if you restore a save.
18:51:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What door? Also, it probably had a predefined seed.
18:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> A friend elsewhere has just said that Chrome logs your browsing history to Google.
18:53:11 <elliott> See Preferences -> Under the Bonnet for an enumeration of all the communication Chrome does to Google.
18:53:22 <j-invariant> I tohught it was some funny trick with the smelter
18:53:22 <elliott> When you put stuff in the address bar it tells Google, to get search results there.
18:53:34 <elliott> It also uses the phishing/malware protection that, sure, sends domain names.
18:53:45 <elliott> And... when you get an error page it asks Google for some likely results.
18:53:48 <elliott> All of these are disableable.
18:54:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If he disagrees, tell him to point you to the line in the source code where it communicates with Google.
18:55:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am VERY UPSET that you are not asking me about my amazing RNG idea!
18:56:05 <oklopol> me too, because i was too lazy to ask myself
18:56:19 <elliott> Dispensers throw items a seemingly random distance.
18:56:25 <elliott> Surround a dispenser with wooden pressure plates.
18:56:33 <elliott> Use the resulting pressure plate patterns.
18:56:44 <elliott> Issues: (1) Can't reset automatically, AFAIK.
18:56:57 <elliott> Of course, you'd just use the result as a seed.
18:57:02 <elliott> you'd have to account for that
18:57:15 <elliott> by weighting the value of each plate or whatever
18:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzERWnFoW54&feature=related
18:58:03 <elliott> I guess it's because of minute lag in the redstone system.
18:58:07 <elliott> vs. the game clock or something.
18:58:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But if redstone wasn't buggy like that, then my idea would still work!
18:58:34 <elliott> j-invariant: kiershar knows all.
18:59:05 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:00:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=114491
19:01:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This pack looks awesome.
19:02:19 <oklopol> there should be a university that has a program in game physics, that is, the whole program is just about reverse-engineering games in-game. would make much more sense than just physics, because instead of one uninteresting universe, you'd have all kinds of universes.
19:03:42 <j-invariant> and minecraft cosmology, we did a bit of that here the other day
19:04:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, Optimine is great.
19:04:24 <elliott> far/fancy without my fan going to 100%
19:04:59 <oklopol> j-invariant: those topics make sense within this universe, but i'm not sure biology of games would be very a coherent field
19:05:05 <oklopol> by physics, i meant all natural sciences
19:09:08 <oklopol> i'm not even kidding about that in-game experimentation thing, i never understood the point of finding out stuff about this particular universe, it doesn't get much less interesting than this
19:09:41 <oklopol> "hey you can move around, and if you work for hours you can make an object that's slightly better suited for bashing containers open"
19:09:42 <Slereah> The genetics in Creature is pretty complex, from what I've read
19:09:46 <Slereah> At least as far as games go
19:09:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh boy. There's a bloom filter fort he GLSL shaders mod :P
19:09:51 <elliott> Slereah: Don't make Sgeo start
19:10:20 <oklopol> Slereah: and even better, you actually get to try them out
19:10:48 <Slereah> Well, you can do it on earth, too
19:10:53 <Slereah> It just takes longer than a day
19:10:57 <oklopol> you can also build a computer in minecraft
19:11:04 <oklopol> who the fuck would, after it's been tested once, tho
19:11:18 <Slereah> You could make a MUSIC BOX
19:11:32 <j-invariant> I got so lost my saved game as become 20 megabytes
19:12:04 <Slereah> I try not to wander too far if I don't have a tunnel near
19:12:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720 YESSSSS
19:12:45 <Vorpal> j-invariant, my local world1 is about 100 MB iirc
19:13:01 <Vorpal> world2 and world3 are about 25-30 MB iirc
19:13:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it has hardcoded side-grass. Lame.
19:13:10 <Slereah> But then again, I do spend a time making my lair pretty
19:13:24 <Vorpal> j-invariant, my local test server world: 110 MB
19:14:04 <Vorpal> j-invariant, build (mega-scale). Explore. Spelunk
19:14:11 <Vorpal> j-invariant, remember I play on peaceful.
19:14:31 <Vorpal> j-invariant, night is just a minor light level inconvenience to me thus
19:15:11 <Slereah> You need to man up, and spend every night cowering in fear in your lair!
19:15:16 <elliott> j-invariant: try mcregion to get smaller files
19:15:25 <elliott> j-invariant: optimine + mcregion = awesome fast
19:16:05 <j-invariant> WTF a creeper just jumped off a cliff to get me
19:16:37 <Slereah> He is a suicide bomber, j-invariant
19:16:55 <elliott> Slereah: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720
19:16:55 <Vorpal> j-invariant, idea: creepers able to build 1x1 towers of dirt to reach you
19:16:58 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=107720
19:17:02 <elliott> Slereah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X32nuDEvw-4
19:17:11 <oklopol> all enemies should be able to mine and build just like you
19:17:36 <oklopol> think how neato, you'd never be safe if they get your scent
19:17:58 <elliott> optimine + mcregion + mipmapping + better light = fuck yeah
19:18:03 <oklopol> so if you walk on the surface during the day, they'll start digging near that area
19:18:11 <Vorpal> oklopol, if you are inside a obsidian structure?
19:18:18 <oklopol> Vorpal: well you basically have to be
19:18:20 <j-invariant> do you need something special to mine those bricks tht look like coal but white?
19:18:27 <coppro> WHY IS THIS #minecraft
19:18:32 <oklopol> well you're safe unless they find diamond
19:18:51 <oklopol> they have the whole night to look for it
19:18:52 <elliott> oklopol: Phantom_Hoover just scared me into thinking that accidentally today
19:18:55 <elliott> oklopol: imo i think just zombies should mine
19:18:55 <Vorpal> oklopol, you can mine away obsidian at lower than that
19:19:00 <elliott> creepers explode, skeletons fire arrows, zombies mine
19:19:06 <elliott> after all they look like us and we can mine, and have no special power now
19:19:08 <Vorpal> oklopol, just you won't get any obsidian blocks dropped
19:19:15 <oklopol> think about it, every night, a thousand creatures are born that have all the powers of a player, that try to kill you
19:19:51 <elliott> Slereah: They can move and jump and punch, so they can mine.
19:20:21 <oklopol> Slereah: except somehow i think they would necessarily be a bit less smart than the player
19:20:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I enable Better Grass or not.
19:20:43 <Vorpal> I SOMEHOW just got a stack of 65
19:20:44 <Slereah> You can try it multiplayer
19:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> i'm not even kidding about that in-game experimentation thing, i never understood the point of finding out stuff about this particular universe, it doesn't get much less interesting than this
19:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> We don't even know how it works, and what we do know about that is very interesting.
19:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> For a start, a fair bit of new mathematics has come from physics.
19:21:49 <oklopol> the actual dynamics are not at all interesting
19:22:19 <oklopol> that's a bit subjective, but i'm sure you all agree
19:22:29 <oklopol> that's why people play minecraft instead of football
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, erm, what is so boring about quantum physics?
19:23:01 <oklopol> quantum physics is not something you can actually do stuff with
19:23:19 <oklopol> yeah, if you've built a computer in minecraft
19:23:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOLY FUCK CREEPER IN THE DAY
19:23:51 <Slereah> Day creepers are the worst man
19:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the essential reason that we study the way this universe works rather than artificial ones is because a) this one is the one we actually live in and b) we don't actually know how this one works, unlike any artificial ones we make.
19:24:17 <Slereah> When I die, I'm not getting my stuff bck
19:24:25 <elliott> It was day on the FIRST DAY
19:24:27 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: we certainly do not know how the artificial ones work either
19:24:58 <oklopol> no one really knows anything about gol
19:24:59 <elliott> has evidently fixed side grass
19:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And working bottom-up is not what we are doing with reality.
19:25:03 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/YlDro.png
19:27:13 <oklopol> but what are interesting are the methods of going top-down, and how simple things turn into macro-things. both can be done separately with artificial models, except you don't have to own a university to be able to do that, and you're not restricted by whatever god chose to include!
19:27:22 <elliott> "The most recent update was on January 15th, and is henceforth known as the Community Appeasement Grab Bag Edition MK II. This update adds nearly 100 new tiles and skins, for the 1.2 beta patch. "
19:28:27 <elliott> Oak is the normal tree type, right?
19:28:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I looked at the customiser, and it had added a Chinese theme.
19:28:40 <elliott> Omg, finally, I can replace the fucking fugly birch tree bark.
19:29:39 <pikhq> ARGH MY SAVE DISAPPEARED ENTIRELY
19:29:39 <impomatic> ais523: pastebin.ca has been for over a week... Is there any chance you could upload your BF Joust interpreter elsewhere?
19:29:45 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
19:29:50 <elliott> pikhq: I don't get the problems you do.
19:29:57 <elliott> impomatic: use egojoust, it's fairer
19:29:58 <pikhq> I'm hitting every edge case!
19:30:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I helped him pirate it.
19:30:16 <elliott> oklopol: it's not updated yet.
19:30:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: People who like dark wood textures have a brain disease: discuss.
19:30:26 <Vorpal> oklopol, I saw you join
19:30:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, downgrade minecraft and use a non-updating launcher
19:30:40 <pikhq> It's my next purchase when I have expendable income.
19:30:42 <oklopol> oh right so i should've prevented update as well? shit
19:30:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Umm, why do you hate humanity?
19:30:54 <elliott> oklopol: just play locally for now
19:30:59 <elliott> the update is well worth it.
19:31:03 <oklopol> but playing locally is totally gay!
19:31:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Actually I'm going to try dark wood.)
19:31:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you use the brick-planks or the line-planks?
19:31:35 <pikhq> elliott: *Part* of the problem is that Minecraft and an IME do not interact at all.
19:31:41 <elliott> pikhq: So disable the IME :P
19:31:49 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, I closed it.
19:31:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll try it ... this once...
19:32:09 <pikhq> elliott: But, yeah. That's only going to come up for East Asian-language-speakers.
19:32:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't got there yet!
19:32:21 -!- Behold has joined.
19:32:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Moar sign options!
19:32:28 <pikhq> (I group them only because their *technological* requirements are very similar)
19:32:31 <elliott> Good thing too, I don't like the bordered-sign.
19:32:43 <oklopol> so umm, can i change textures by just changing some sort of pic files
19:32:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DO YOU USE LIGHT OR DARK STONE
19:32:57 <elliott> oklopol: you want to make your own pack?
19:33:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why obviously.
19:33:21 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Texture_Pack
19:33:27 <elliott> oklopol: look at that list of modifiable files
19:33:31 <elliott> oklopol: copy them all out of minecraft.jar
19:33:43 <elliott> %APPDATA/.minecraft/texturepacks
19:33:47 <elliott> and edit terrain.png inside the zip
19:33:51 <elliott> also other files, but terrain.png is all the blocks
19:34:02 <elliott> you _can_ change them direct in the jar but this is more maintainable
19:34:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, beige is nice
19:34:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I... need a screenshot of your setup with both stone and wood, because it sounds horrifically dark.
19:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remember that stupid basic texture pack for slow computers.
19:34:24 <oklopol> okay, that sounds like *seconds* of work
19:34:36 <j-invariant> apparently you can use a stone pickaxe to get iron
19:34:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I NEED SCREENSHOT (also, wood is).
19:34:49 <elliott> j-invariant: Dude, I found iron on my third in-game day...
19:34:54 <elliott> You are mining terribly :P
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19:36:40 <elliott> Minecraft: http://i.imgur.com/ZODJz.gif
19:37:26 <elliott> oklopol: so is your texture pack done
19:37:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THINGS THAT ARE NOT IN THAT PICTURE: Stone
19:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's 30m up from the ground. Of course there's no stone.
19:38:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But I asked for stone!
19:38:52 <elliott> DISAPPOINTED PLEASE GIVE SCREENSHOT WITH STONE
19:39:18 <oklopol> so can i have alpha color everywhere
19:39:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: looks like gravel
19:39:33 <elliott> oklopol: not on every block i don't think
19:39:43 <elliott> oklopol: with leaves you can have full alpha, dunno about half
19:39:47 <elliott> oklopol: and ice is half-transparent or whatever
19:39:52 <elliott> oklopol: btw changing water/lava does not work
19:39:58 <elliott> you need to use this fancy mcpatcher thing to do that but whatever
19:40:10 <elliott> oklopol: also the blocks at the bottom are the digging animation, you can use any greyscale there
19:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So ocean of grey > ocean of beige? :P
19:40:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like beige. Wait, do you use dark cobblstone too?
19:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you're a tetrachromat, and since that requires you to be female, there's not much chance of that.
19:41:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like beige. Wait, do you use dark cobblstone too? <-- I like beige as well
19:41:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We are ... no longer friends.
19:41:43 -!- elliott has changed nick to alise.
19:41:47 -!- alise has changed nick to elliott.
19:42:07 <elliott> I got chromosome reassignment surgery.
19:42:24 <elliott> And became a tetrachromat in the process!
19:42:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so clearly you regressed to a zygote and regrew?
19:42:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that's a fetish, but no.
19:42:56 <elliott> They changed them in-place.
19:43:16 <elliott> So my eyes changed obviously, because they had new chromosomes now.
19:43:31 <elliott> Oh really? Then why am I a tetrachromat?
19:44:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Your body doesn't go "oh, look, the DNA changed. Must bring phenotype up to date, then."
19:44:46 <elliott> "I want Lapis Lazuli ground into a powder for dyes." Ooh...
19:45:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What redstone wire do you use?
19:45:25 <elliott> The ornate one looks cool.
19:45:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hopefully you can agree that the Painterly chests and doors are hideous, though.
19:46:01 <elliott> YOU CANNOT DO THAT IN 16 PIXELS WITHOUT LOOKING HIDEOUS
19:46:22 <elliott> Yes. Which is all of them.
19:46:33 <Vorpal> the light wood ones are good
19:46:38 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
19:46:59 <elliott> "Give me Chinese-style windows." UGLIEST
19:47:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which sandstone option is most realistic.
19:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I went for bricks since I'm used to seeing it used for that.
19:47:31 <elliott> Original cloth of woven cloth?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
19:47:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Smooth-topped?
19:48:16 <elliott> Smooth-topped sandstone columns look nice... but I'll stick with the default for now.
19:49:06 <fizzie> Personally "I would like BARONS DEF CHARGER'S woven cloth texture", even despite the name.
19:49:16 <elliott> fizzie: That's the one I've been usin' too.
19:49:17 <elliott> "I want a metal creeper insignia ornate monster spawner cage."
19:49:35 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:49:56 <elliott> "Change my wood door into an unstained light wood door." ;; I would use this one if it were darker.
19:50:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Chocolate cake, I hope.
19:51:01 <elliott> "I want my sugar in a bag like civilized people."
19:51:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you even human?
19:51:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *The Minecraft cake is chocolate*.
19:51:28 <elliott> Also, the cake in Portal is chocolate.
19:52:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, Notch *said* it was chocolate, and the sponge is dark enough for it.
19:52:19 <elliott> And yes, the cake in Portal is chocolate.
19:52:20 <elliott> http://theknittingdefective.typepad.com/.a/6a0115714ad401970c011572419026970b-800wi
19:52:32 <elliott> Better shot: http://honestcake.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/portal_and_there_will_be_cake.jpg
19:52:51 <elliott> WHAT PAINTING OPTIONS DO YOU USE
19:52:59 <fizzie> That looks like a plastic cake.
19:53:23 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:53:26 <elliott> "Give me an ink sac, straight from the squid." Disgusting; I'll take the splatter.
19:54:06 <elliott> Fuck you, default choice, my chickens are CHICKENS.
19:54:39 <elliott> People who use glowing-eyed creepers are abortions: discuss.
19:54:54 <elliott> In fact, people who use anything other than "Give me a Creeper that looks more like the original!" are probably Nazis.
19:55:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON.
19:56:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What game cursor do you use.
19:56:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I hate you.
19:56:41 -!- pingveno has joined.
19:57:11 <elliott> 1.1.10_01 - Fixed custom water/lava for beta 1.1_02
19:57:17 <elliott> Gee, I wonder if it'll work on 1.2_01.
19:58:04 <elliott> The custom water/lava options are disabled.
19:58:12 <elliott> I'll use default water for now ...
19:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but anyway, that basic texture back thing has been taken down because noöne donated to it.
19:58:39 <elliott> I hope whatever's causing that fucked-up side grass goes away.
19:58:53 <elliott> Oh god, the brick background on the title screen is ugly.
20:00:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The "radios" are jukeboxes, right?
20:00:23 <oerjan> <elliott> People who use glowing-eyed creepers are abortions: discuss. <Phantom_Hoover> I use glowing-eyed creepers! <-- i am starting to see a trend here...
20:00:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is the worst person.
20:01:16 <elliott> Ornate dispenser so ugly oh my god
20:01:35 <elliott> "I want an industrial simple dispenser." is nice.
20:02:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You at least use "I want cobblestone with larger individual stones.", surely?
20:02:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And marble half blocks?
20:02:47 <elliott> At least you're human in one area.
20:02:59 <elliott> fizzie: Tell me you agree that Phantom_Hoover's texture pack options are insane.
20:03:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover is half-creeper
20:03:16 <j-invariant> 20:05 < AliG> I is here with my man and we ares chattin about something well important, math.
20:03:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "I want to use the flat Painterly lapis lazuli block." yes?
20:03:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think you should die.
20:04:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he said die, not dye
20:04:49 <elliott> GRR, that stupid grass problem hasn't fixed itself. I need to repatch everything.
20:05:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Holy shit, what coal ore do you use, the default dark stone coal ore is amazingly bad.
20:05:43 <oerjan> coal with extra sulphur, clearly
20:05:55 <elliott> mipmapping + painterly = love
20:06:05 <elliott> Game looks fucking amazing.
20:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I used the default coal ore because it was that or beige or strangely machined coal chunks.
20:07:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, it's grey, not beige.
20:07:46 <elliott> Can I just say now that Painterly dirt tiles terribly.
20:09:09 <ais523> is pastebin.ca down for good?
20:09:16 <ais523> it hasn't worked on any of my recent attempts to access it
20:10:00 <elliott> ais523: it was up only a few days ago
20:10:11 <elliott> ais523: filebin has been down forever, though
20:11:16 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I implemented tsort for changesets
20:11:26 <elliott> ais523: probably wildly inefficient
20:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I have installed Optimine, mipmapping, MCPATCHER, Better Light and Painterly.
20:11:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't need mcpatcher.
20:11:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just put it in texturepacks?
20:11:54 <elliott> There's native texture pack support now.
20:11:59 <elliott> mcpatcher is only required for custom water and lava.
20:12:02 <elliott> Which don't work right now.
20:12:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Those buttons just make it use the DEFAULT Minecraft water/lava.
20:12:34 <elliott> Until custom water/lava are reenabled, mcpatcher does nothing for non-HD packs.
20:12:50 <elliott> Does your side-grass get coloured weirdly, too?
20:14:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I *didn't*.
20:14:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And it also happened with the default pack.
20:14:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The problem is that it's colouring the dirt parts too for some reason according to the biome.
20:15:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/YlDro.png
20:16:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, that's some mod.
20:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I INSTALLED THE SAME MODS AS YOU.
20:17:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, you forgot mcregion.
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20:21:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Respawned - half the clay returned - but still in my inventory - fuck yea
20:21:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh wow, it is comical how bad the game looks without mipmapping and Better Light.
20:22:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that stint with side-grass-that-looks-like-pure-grass has convinced me that either Better Grass or Painterly's 1/1 grass option are awesome.
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20:23:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do beaches usually have a ton of brown mushrooms on them?
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20:25:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Notch hasn't hired Scaevolus yet; discuss.
20:25:28 <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f2wvt/is_this_a_secret_fallout_puzzle_it_looks_like_a/
20:25:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The author of Optimine and mcregion.
20:25:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A part of Optimine was included in 1.2.
20:25:47 <augur> maybe its not a message and is just a bunch of keys for lockers..
20:25:57 <augur> or something like that
20:26:02 <elliott> augur: PSHT WHAT SILLINESS
20:26:40 <augur> also, if it IS a code, surely you could figure it out pretty quickly, at least if it were binary, morse, baudot, ...
20:27:05 <elliott> augur: >expecting intelligence from /r/gaming
20:27:21 <Vorpal> <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f2wvt/is_this_a_secret_fallout_puzzle_it_looks_like_a/ <-- nice myst reference in the comments :D
20:27:43 <augur> good thing its the first comment so i was guaranteed to see it as i read the comments.
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20:28:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait what, MC can still read my McRegion save.
20:28:53 <augur> ok its time to watch some lectures on the russian revolution
20:29:06 <augur> well, more of a discussion
20:29:39 <augur> oh. nevermind. this is boring and short
20:29:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I started a new mcregion game.
20:31:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, I'ma skip Better Grass, since Painterly has an equivalent as a texture option.
20:31:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (OK, so with Better Grass I'd get 2/3 instead of 1/1 when there's dirt below, but I always thought that looked weird.)
20:31:27 <elliott> Putting dirt below a grass block should not cause it to lose grass!
20:31:49 <augur> elliott: im making a tagging app
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20:34:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, I just did it all from scratch.
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20:34:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Optimine -> McRegion -> Mipmapping -> Better Light, in that order.
20:34:33 <elliott> Side grass dirt is still biome-tinted.
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20:35:03 <elliott> ais523: how would you recommend handling the fact that there are different types of change? one type for files (lists of lines), one type for directories (sets of directory entries), etc...
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20:36:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *blink* mcpatcher JUST GOT UPDATED.
20:36:54 <elliott> It has custom water/lava now.
20:37:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So tick custom water/lava, detick animated water/lava, and ENJOY
20:37:04 <augur_> sorry, elliott, if you said anything after my response i didnt see it
20:37:10 <elliott> <augur> elliott: im making a tagging app
20:37:32 <augur_> ok so you didnt get my answer
20:37:33 <augur_> what tagged: files, urls, text; what os: mac; what purpose: nothing does precisely what i like
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20:39:00 <augur> elliott: how do you organize your ideas and stuff you find interesting and so forth?
20:39:25 <elliott> irc :P ... in practice i use a file system
20:39:29 <elliott> in @ it's basically based on search
20:39:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU, it seems that mcpatcher's custom water/lava overrides mipmapping.
20:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So I'll have to copy the custom files into minecraft.jar myself.
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20:42:38 <elliott> OK, here's what I'll do: Optimine -> McRegion -> Mipmapping -> Better Light -> manual copy of custom water files. (If that does in fact work.)
20:42:47 <elliott> That won't solve the side grass issue.
20:43:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, seriously, screenshot some damn side-grass for me, I do not believe that you do not see the issue with these mods.
20:43:13 <augur> elliott: well, i use a file system too, but my organizational habits arent well adapted to file systems
20:43:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What order did you install them in? You realise some of them overwrite the others?
20:43:33 <elliott> augur: Nobody's are. But nobody likes tagging either, and you'll slip doing it eventually.
20:43:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No it doesn't what?
20:43:44 <augur> elliott: will not! :|
20:43:50 <augur> i used delicious right up to the end
20:43:54 <augur> that was like four years worth
20:44:00 <elliott> delicious still exists, you know
20:44:15 <augur> yeah but its supposedly closing
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20:45:08 <augur> unless they changed their plans
20:45:09 <elliott> which has always been the case
20:45:10 <elliott> ITT: believing everything you hear on reddit
20:45:10 <elliott> and then not seeing follow-up posts
20:45:11 <augur> ah ok, well they were supposedly just closing
20:45:12 <augur> either way, i want tags for my files and for ideas too, not just links
20:45:12 <elliott> based on one slide from a presentation that never actually said that.
20:45:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do not what.
20:45:33 <augur> elliott: files are useful!
20:45:34 <augur> i have lots of them
20:45:35 <elliott> augur: They are not useful.
20:45:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Please tell me what order you installed mods in.
20:45:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, be aware that I'm using the new mcpatcher which was updated at 8:25 pm.
20:45:54 <elliott> Which is not the version you used.
20:46:35 <elliott> augur: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html is a very whiny and very incomplete page, but it's more than you'd get out of me right now while I'm busy bugging Phantom_Hoover.
20:46:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you going to give me the order of mods...?
20:46:57 <elliott> augur: Or so I hear. Apparently italics are whiny, I use a lot of them.
20:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Optimine, mcregion, mipmapping, Better Light + Grass, mcpatcher.
20:47:17 <augur> i was just commenting more on you commenting your own shit as whiny
20:47:33 <elliott> augur: I didn't think it was whiny until everyone informed me it was. :p
20:47:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You mean that with Better Grass, which turns all the side of grass blocks into grass, you don't see tinted dirt? HOLY SHIT YOU'RE KIDDING ME
20:47:59 <elliott> Maybe that's because there IS NO DIRT?
20:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Better Grass leaves some blocks with the default side grass texture.
20:49:25 <augur> elliott: MATRIX DIRT?!
20:49:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Screenshot, please. Also, what checkboxes did you tick in mcpatcher?
20:49:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I suspect Better Grass is still the culprit, in that it probably overwrites the offending code entirely.
20:49:56 <elliott> augur: Less talking, more reading!
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20:51:21 <augur> elliott: it sounds like you want an Alto.
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20:51:50 <elliott> augur: (Even Multics, the big behemoth predating Unix, had a form of orthogonal persistence.)
20:51:50 <augur> also, i agree with everything you said.
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20:52:06 <elliott> augur: And so you should use @!
20:52:07 <zzo38> Has someone told you that TeXnicard is used by writing Underload-like programs? I will tell you now that it is only partially true.
20:52:19 <elliott> augur: My pipe-dream OS of amazingness.
20:52:45 <elliott> augur: It got a remarkably solid design a while ago, which I then completely liquefied by thinking about it some more.
20:52:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: checkboxes!
20:52:57 <zzo38> elliott: Can you use pipes with it?
20:53:23 <augur> elliott: a friend of mine is creating an OS
20:53:25 <augur> or is mulling it over
20:53:33 <zzo38> elliott: Then why did you call it pipe-dream OS? And how can it be used without pipes?
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20:53:37 <elliott> augur: It's probably shit. @ has features such as being awesome, which is the opposite of the feature of being shit.
20:53:48 <augur> ive been pushing for a completely radical rethinking of how it should work
20:53:49 <elliott> zzo38: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:pipe-dream
20:54:04 <elliott> augur: @ is what happens when you radically rethink radical rethinking.
20:54:07 <augur> basically where everything is data-oriented instead of application oriented
20:54:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is important which animated box you ticked.
20:54:16 <elliott> augur: @ had that from version 0.1...
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20:54:29 <elliott> @ is INSIDE THE CARDBOARD COMPRISING THE BOX
20:54:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But not water? Hmm.
20:54:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How are you sure that mipmapping still functions?
20:54:47 <augur> elliott: what language are you writing it in?
20:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, because things in the distance look nice.
20:55:16 <elliott> augur: @lang. (I'm not kidding. Both @ and @lang are, of course, placeholder names; @ has also gone by ElliottOS in the past in here.)
20:55:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could just be blind.
20:55:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, I'll retry in a minute...
20:55:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I still suspect Better Grass, though.
20:55:31 <zzo38> I like to have many commands acting like filters so that you can use pipes for everything.
20:55:40 <augur> elliott: whats @lang like
20:56:08 <elliott> augur: Imagine if Haskell decided to stop being practical and became completely and utterly hardcore, thus ensuring it could never reasonably interact with existing systems.
20:56:30 <augur> i thought haskell WASNT practical :(
20:56:38 <elliott> augur: @ itself is actually written in two languages: x86-64 assembly, and @lang.
20:56:59 <elliott> augur: The assembly includes an efficient, parallel lazy specialiser for @lang (WARNING WARNING OPEN RESEARCH TOPIC WARNING).
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20:57:05 <elliott> augur: This comprises the implementation of @lang.
20:57:18 <elliott> augur: It also has task switching code and the security system.
20:57:27 <elliott> augur: Everything above that, including just about all hardware drivers, are written in @lang.
20:57:45 <elliott> Indeed, in @lang, you can write to any memory address you want, so long as you have permission to.
20:58:02 <elliott> (Of course, you are unlikely to get such blanket permission; drivers will get permission to write to restricted regions of memory if they require it, but little else.)
20:58:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How much convincing do you need to redo it all without Better Grass to see if that's the cure?
20:59:07 <elliott> augur: You seem like you have lost interest!
20:59:35 <elliott> augur: Was it "OPEN RESEARCH TOPIC"?
20:59:38 <augur> something other than nothing
20:59:58 <augur> you answered the question.
21:00:17 <elliott> augur: But there are so many INTERESTING DESIGN DECISIONS.
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21:01:26 <elliott> augur: I'm giving you ammo to make your friend redesign their OS here!
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21:03:05 <elliott> augur: Psht, your tagging program is the worst ever, then. :p
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21:06:00 <elliott> augur: I AM DISAPPOINTED IN YOU
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21:07:14 <tswett> If he were not here, this channel would have no properties in common with the channel as it is.
21:07:26 <tswett> Every predicate true of it now would be false, and vice versa.
21:07:53 <elliott> tswett: So if I left, the channel would not exist?
21:08:12 <elliott> careful, you might say something you Kant
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21:08:54 <tswett> It would not exist, and the set of people in it would be the complement of the set of people currently in it.
21:09:01 -!- elliott has left (?).
21:09:50 <tswett> Of course, the tunes.org logs still log this channel as it would be if elliott were still here.
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21:10:34 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: you should probably join and then identify, not vice versa.
21:10:47 <tswett> elliott: DUDE THAT WAS AWESOME
21:10:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have a theory. That theory is that mipmapping doesn't work, at all.
21:10:55 <elliott> tswett: How do you know, you weren't here.
21:10:59 <tswett> Everything false was true and vice versa! Except for some things.
21:11:11 <elliott> tswett: Oh wait ... it briefly obeyed the property "is a gigantic space monster that eats everyone".
21:11:12 <tswett> Yes, but the set of people in this channel was equal to {tswett}.
21:11:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It used to! But now it doesn't!
21:11:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, new theory.
21:11:23 <elliott> Mipmapping has to come before McRegion.
21:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, also, I should point out that I have no control over what XChat does.
21:11:45 <elliott> Specify a server password instead.
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21:12:52 <elliott> * Phantom__Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
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21:14:12 <oklopol> does mindmapping have something more to it than categorizing in treeform and being restricted to a small amount of data in nodes?
21:14:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I swear. Mipmapping does nothing.
21:14:25 <oerjan> um why would you want to join before identifying, wouldn't that temporarily reveal the cloak
21:14:30 <oklopol> are you talking about something other than the general concept :D
21:14:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, well NOW it does.
21:14:36 <elliott> oerjan: that's what he currently does
21:14:50 <oklopol> i read that as mindmapping every time
21:15:04 <oklopol> was kinda wondering why you'd be suddenly talking about that
21:15:05 <elliott> oklopol: you know when you look at far away stuff on minecraft... actually you don't since you use tiny
21:15:08 <elliott> but if you've ever used far,
21:15:11 <elliott> and if you move your mouse left to right
21:15:13 <elliott> you can see it warp around
21:15:18 <elliott> because of it scaling the texture down
21:15:18 <oklopol> but i wanted to ask the question so didn't feel like googling for what you might actually mean
21:15:25 <elliott> mipmapping just uses less pixels in the texture the further away it is
21:15:28 <elliott> meaning far-away stuff looks nice
21:15:49 <elliott> (this warping is especially noticeable on the Stairs near spawn on the server)
21:16:04 <oerjan> elliott: was tswett doing that opposite thing when he suggested it, then?
21:16:13 <elliott> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover was suggesting the proper way
21:16:17 <elliott> oerjan: tswett was suggesting the proper way
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21:16:32 <oklopol> is mipmapping the name of this technique, or some tool?
21:16:37 <elliott> oklopol: name of the technique
21:16:46 <oklopol> because i think i've heard the term, maybe it was in that one book i read once
21:16:53 <oklopol> anyway that's kind of an obvious thing to do
21:16:55 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=128995
21:17:02 <elliott> It's not as simple as just activating mip-mapping.
21:17:02 <elliott> Initially it looked really bad because some blocks looked broken.
21:17:02 <elliott> Glass, for instance had black halos and was completely black in the distance.
21:17:02 <elliott> I fixed this by adjusting the alpha testing, so it discards everything with alpha < 0.5 instead of alpha=0.
21:17:02 <elliott> what remains is that glass almost disappears in the distance.
21:17:06 <elliott> Then, water had a purple shade in the distance.
21:17:08 <elliott> The fix for that is somewhat of a compromise: I clamp the mipmapping level so there's always at least one pixel per texture.
21:17:15 <elliott> oklopol: oh it improves fps too
21:17:39 <fizzie> oklopol: The name is also derived from latin, so the technique is doubly awesome.
21:18:07 <oklopol> it's not really a technique, it's an obvious thing to do
21:18:17 <fizzie> It also eats a bit more texture memory, but, well, nowadays cards seem to have gigabytes of it.
21:18:34 <elliott> fizzie: do you still use tronic
21:18:39 <elliott> okIn 3D computer graphics texture filtering, MIP maps (also mipmaps) are pre-calculated, optimized collections of images that accompany a main texture, intended to increase rendering speed and reduce aliasing artifacts. They are widely used in 3D computer games, flight simulators and other 3D imaging systems. The technique is known as mipmapping. The letters "MIP" in the name are an acronym of the Latin phrase multum in parvo, meaning "much in a
21:18:39 <elliott> small space". Mipmaps need more space in memory. They also form the basis of wavelet compression.
21:18:40 <elliott> oklopol: In 3D computer graphics texture filtering, MIP maps (also mipmaps) are pre-calculated, optimized collections of images that accompany a main texture, intended to increase rendering speed and reduce aliasing artifacts. They are widely used in 3D computer games, flight simulators and other 3D imaging systems. The technique is known as mipmapping. The letters "MIP" in the name are an acronym of the Latin phrase multum in parvo, meaning "muc
21:18:41 <elliott> h in a small space". Mipmaps need more space in memory. They also form the basis of wavelet compression.
21:18:50 <elliott> MUCH IN A SMALL SPACE MAPS
21:18:55 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd pay a couple thousand for a computer in february, SO I NEVER HAVE TO BUY A NEW ONE AGAIN
21:19:01 <oklopol> i hope there isn't a flaw in my logic
21:19:08 <fizzie> About gigabytes, or about it using more?
21:19:14 <oerjan> elliott: <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: you should probably join and then identify, not vice versa.
21:19:15 <elliott> oklopol: i can get parts for you, i'm GOOD at that!
21:19:23 <elliott> oklopol: i didn't do it for Phantom_Hoover because his budget was lame
21:19:27 <oklopol> i'm already paying a friend to do that
21:19:27 <elliott> but a couple thousand euros i could do a lot with
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21:19:35 <elliott> but i'll do it for free, and am more awesome?
21:19:43 <elliott> you're killing small businesses
21:19:49 <elliott> or is it working for free that's killing us
21:20:35 <fizzie> elliott: I haven't tried MC post the 1.2 update at all; so I'm not sure how to answer. Theoretically speaking "yes, I'm still using Tronic"; but on the other hand the updater will wipe that, so maybe "no" is closer.
21:21:01 <elliott> fizzie: Well, only very few packs are updated for the beta, but yeah that was what I meant (are you using it as of last time you played).
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21:21:36 <elliott> "Information wants to be free!" -- obnoxious. slogan.
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21:22:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, hypothesis. Mipmapping only works the first time you load a world.
21:22:11 <oerjan> elliott: he _was_ talking about predicates reversing truth value at about the same time though
21:22:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This theory holds up so far.
21:22:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ADDITIONAL FACT: Side-grass only looks weird in some biomes.
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21:23:03 <elliott> Travel to another, I bet you'll see the tinting.
21:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, why is it that mipmapping makes ladders white?
21:23:37 <elliott> Anyway, canya travel to another biome for me?
21:23:56 <elliott> Or even just compare grass block above dirt block.
21:23:59 <elliott> The dirt will *not* be the same colour.
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21:27:36 <elliott> I blame Better Grass and holy shit whatever that four-block thing is, it is hideous, is that cobble?
21:28:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your 1/1-side-grass is seemingly not mip mapped.
21:28:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Look at the side grass in the distance.
21:28:42 <elliott> Compare with the top grass.
21:28:46 <elliott> Ho ho. Better Grass does indeed fix things.
21:29:29 <elliott> The side of grass blocks aren't.
21:32:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Views like this make me want biome-compliant grass working properly on the side. Badly. http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
21:33:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover exploded from the pretty.
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21:35:10 <elliott> fizzie: You get to appreciate it, then: http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
21:38:57 <elliott> fizzie: How much is it bothering you that I didn't pick up the pumpkins beforehand?
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21:48:43 <elliott> fizzie: Can you please please please get ineiros to the requisite level of drunkenness to update to the stock beta server tonight?
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21:50:37 <fizzie> elliott: I was supposed to, on Friday, but he went and got some sort of a flu thing and was too feverish for that.
21:50:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I just can't stop taking screenshots... http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Yg This is how Minecraft should come by default.
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21:50:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Fast, CPU-friendly, and absurdly pretty.
21:51:15 <elliott> Now we just need shader-powered colour light, like in that beautiful screenshot of the unreleased shader with red redstone torch light...
21:51:21 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Well, it can't be perfect.
21:51:29 <elliott> But I definitely couldn't play with all these fancy mods seamlessly before.
21:51:51 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717
21:51:54 <elliott> j-invariant: and also install mcregion:
21:51:58 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=120160
21:52:09 <elliott> j-invariant: (updates will make your saves inaccessible but there's a conversion tool so you can use them)
21:52:18 <elliott> j-invariant: those graphics are what me and Phantom__Hoover just got working basically :P
21:52:27 <elliott> j-invariant: how good is your gpu/cpu?
21:52:33 <elliott> j-invariant: do you play on Far/Fancy?
21:52:53 <elliott> j-invariant: can you do Far/Fancy without your computer lagging?
21:52:57 <elliott> failing that, Normal/Fancy?
21:53:15 <elliott> if you can't play Normal/Fancy smoothly, it's very unlikely you'll be able to get all these mods working smoothly, even with optimine and mcregion
21:53:25 <elliott> although mipmapping helps a bit
21:54:22 <elliott> j-invariant: basically: Install Optimine; install McRegion; install mipmapping; install Better Light and Better Grass; use mcpatcher on a customised Painterly Pack, check Custom Water, Animated Lava and Animated Fire, decheck the rest. If you have problems with any step in this just ask me for help. :p
21:54:45 <elliott> I have to say, it's well worth it.
21:55:05 <elliott> Also playing fullscreened helps for prettiness. :p
21:55:20 <elliott> j-invariant: the checkboxes in mcpatcher are very unintuitive btw but those are the options you want
21:57:43 <ineiros> elliott: Might update in the morning.
21:58:00 <elliott> ineiros: It's very, very early morning!
21:58:11 <elliott> ineiros: BTW, after this last hMod release, there'll be no more.
21:58:30 <elliott> It's all going to the "super-fancy" vapourware pre-pre-pre-alpha Bukkit.
21:58:38 <fizzie> It's past midnight here, so it qualifies as a morning.
21:58:46 <elliott> You should update RIGHT NOW
21:59:05 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Problem solved. Starting a world in full-screen doesn't do mipmapping. Seriously.
22:00:43 <elliott> TED talks overstep my upsettingly-short attention span.
22:02:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: 50-60 fps standing still, 30-40 fps moving. Booyah.
22:03:01 <Phantom__Hoover> TL;DR: it takes the best part of human civilisation as it presently stands to make a toaster.
22:03:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Wait. You don't use view bobbing, do you?
22:03:42 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I watched that video. Awesome.
22:03:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: ... how do you live with yourself?
22:04:09 <Phantom__Hoover> It looks so mechanical when you just glide over the ground.
22:06:40 -!- Behold has joined.
22:06:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:08:28 -!- charlvn has joined.
22:09:18 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: 16 PUMPKINS IN ONE FIELD
22:11:02 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:11:28 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:11:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I'm trying out a new playstyle.
22:11:36 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
22:11:50 <zzo38> Hopefully now it will not disconnect due to server problem.
22:12:15 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I spend my time in the ocean, searching out new lands; in the day, I land on them, take useful materials, and sail on.
22:12:40 <zzo38> elliott: Do you mean, you steal them?
22:13:08 <zzo38> Steal the materials.
22:13:18 <elliott> zzo38: Nobody has laid claim to them, so how can it be stealing?
22:13:41 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure?
22:14:07 <elliott> zzo38: There are no houses, or indeed any signs of building, or any change to the landscape at all; no signs; nothing.
22:14:19 <elliott> So if someone has laid claim to them, they haven't exactly made it explicit.
22:14:21 <zzo38> And what kind of materials are they?
22:14:33 <elliott> Wood from trees. Coal. Iron. Stone.
22:15:07 <zzo38> Well, don't steal too much of them, otherwise it will become empty and the trees and stuff can be important.
22:15:20 <elliott> zzo38: I replant the saplings from the trees so that more grow.
22:15:48 <zzo38> elliott: OK. But please do not cut *all* the trees at once, at least!!
22:22:12 <zzo38> impomatic: I have not. I do not know what that is.
22:22:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1: Good lord. Spiders can swim. I only hope that my boat can outrun these abominable creatures. There is wonderful land to the side of me, but I cannot stop now; there will be others like it, I am sure. For now, I approach morning ... as fast as my boat will take me.
22:22:26 <elliott> OH MAN THIS IS SO CHEESY I LOVE IT
22:23:19 <impomatic> zzo38: it's some kind of programming game with robotic insects and 3d graphics, I don't know much about it - http://programminggames.org/AIWars-The-Insect-Mind.ashx
22:23:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum: A perfectly square hole in the world, down to lands of lava and void. What hath God wrought upon this sea? Have I tread into curséd waters?
22:24:15 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: btw that toaster thing is exactly what i meant by this being an utterly uninteresting world, it takes a fuckload of work to make it interesting!
22:24:30 <oklopol> but i suppose that work has been done already, so maybe i should complain less
22:25:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 2: There are beasts frozen in a permanent expression of horror, made out of unearthly materials, stalking me silently. I am losing my faith.
22:27:06 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 3: A forest alight. If the unholy creatures did not dwell nearby, I would inspect. Perhaps they did this. There is no land ahead of me that I can see.
22:30:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 4: Never so fast have I tried to eliminate dirt as when I saw I was careering towards it. I did not get out; I knew the skeletal archers must have been watching me intently. But now my boat is a pile of wood and I am alone in the night. I am not even sure I have the wood to repair it.
22:32:26 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night 1, addendum 5: I hastily built a workbench and my boat again; thank God I had the materials. And I even managed to remove my workbench, but as I removed the few remaining blocks of dirt to allow me to pass them with the possibility of return if, as I suspect, it was a dead end, a zombie appeared next to me, after slinking up unnoticed. My boat is in the water but I am not in it, and I fear that the zombie wil
22:32:26 <elliott> l soon decimate my health. I am at a loss.
22:33:19 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.universetoday.com/20671/ion-shield-for-interplanetary-spaceships-now-a-reality/
22:33:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: EXCUSE ME I REQUIRE ADVICE?
22:33:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: "The USS Enterprise has many uses for its deflector shields, including repelling the Borg (Paramount Pictures)"
22:34:48 <Phantom__Hoover> I can kill a few when I murder Sgeo's father and stepmother.
22:35:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: CAPTAIN'S LOG, night, addendum 6: Braaaiiiins. Braiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins... everything is so much better now... braaaaiins... the sea restricts movement, it is no place I want to be ... all I desire ... is FLESH...
22:35:34 <elliott> nooga: A zombie killed me while I played a mariner.
22:36:54 <elliott> j-invariant: yes, you can rely on haskell's arithmetic procedures working
22:36:59 <elliott> even if they're not proven :D
22:37:09 <nooga> #esoteric: bunch of smart computer wizzards playing with blocks like small boys + some audience
22:37:29 <elliott> nooga: you forgot the small boy playing with blocks like a small boy
22:38:03 <elliott> nooga: bought the damn game yet? I need slaves.
22:38:45 <nooga> no, i'm busy finding this lapis
22:40:41 <nooga> elliott: just make some TNT and use it for digging
22:40:52 <elliott> nooga: we already have shitloads of TNT
22:40:55 <elliott> the problem is, it's not nearly enough
22:40:59 <elliott> we've used up almost 9 stacks
22:41:10 <elliott> nooga: and it's still only a tiny, tiny corner
22:41:12 <elliott> that isn't even all down to bedrock
22:41:18 <elliott> also, we need help draining, too
22:41:57 <oklopol> by nine stacks, sure you mean 9 boxes? i have at least a big box full of 9 boxes of exploded tnt
22:42:26 <elliott> yeah cuz you can stack boxes
22:42:40 <oklopol> when you say stack boxes, surely you mean box boxes
22:42:47 <elliott> actually it would be nice if you could put chests in chests... not chests in inventory obviously
22:42:52 <elliott> but chests in chests, nested only one level
22:42:56 <elliott> a one-chest storage solution for life
22:43:15 <oklopol> you should be able to make a backpack
22:43:22 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: _with items_
22:43:24 <oklopol> that lets you store more stuff
22:43:27 <elliott> so one 64-stack of chests is as good as 64 chests
22:43:27 <oklopol> the inventory is smallllllll
22:43:33 <olsner> <oklopol> you should be able to make a backpack with a scrollbar
22:43:36 <elliott> and one large chest of 64-stacks of chests could store EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE
22:43:58 <elliott> oklopol: what i would really like to see is the held-item bar being redesigned.
22:44:09 <elliott> oklopol: there you should just be four rows of inventory, and at the end of each row, scrolling past gives you the next one
22:44:11 <oklopol> surely you mean it could sore a big box full of universes?
22:44:18 <elliott> so you don't have to fucking drag things down and up all the time
22:45:33 <oklopol> i'm trying to respond but i'm not sure what to surely-you-mean
22:46:11 <elliott> oklopol: surely you mean you should be able to scroll through the contents of infinite universes in the bottom bar
22:46:29 <oklopol> by bottom bar, surely you mean a big box of bottom bars?
22:46:53 <oklopol> i have at least 3 big boxes of bottom bars in my base
22:46:54 <elliott> maybe the inventory should just be displayed in a sidebar
22:47:08 <elliott> and you enter two digits, row then col, to select an item
22:47:21 <elliott> also it'd have the 2x2 crafting there
22:48:26 <oklopol> i'd like mc more if instead of objects, you'd have big boxes full of objects, like you know use the chest icon as the icon of every object and name object x "a bix bog of x's"
22:48:55 <elliott> oklopol: or you could just make stacks go up to 1728
22:49:11 <elliott> oklopol: 3456 (omg that's ASCENDING)
22:49:14 <elliott> 3, 4, 5, 6 ?!£NRjhkflghvmkjg
22:49:15 <oklopol> LOL, small chest... surely you mean a bix box of small chests
22:49:27 <elliott> bix box, is that like weetabix
22:49:52 <oklopol> i of course meant a big box of bix boxes.
22:50:16 <Ilari> Heh... "New" indications on IETF I-Ds are based on date. That resulted obsolete version of I-D having "new" indiction.
22:50:42 <elliott> oklopol: ah, so infinite storage?
22:50:42 <oklopol> Ilari: surely you mean it's based on a big box of dates?
22:50:52 <oklopol> i should stop this before it stops being funny
22:51:02 <elliott> oklopol: you're actually a big box of oklopols, right?
22:51:07 <oklopol> not really a danger of that anytime soon
22:51:12 <oklopol> but you know, in a couple of days
22:51:57 <oklopol> elliott: by a big box of oklopols, surely you mean a big box of big boxes of oklopols? i have like 5 big boxes of big boxes of oklopols in my base
22:52:06 <elliott> oklopol: friendly word of advice
22:52:10 <elliott> oklopol: DEAR GOD NEVER LET THEM ESCAPE
22:52:31 <oklopol> i should certainly not let them escape
22:52:35 <oklopol> but can i ask you something?
22:52:44 <oklopol> when you say friendly word of advice
22:52:54 <oklopol> surely you mean a big box of friendly words of advice?
22:53:06 <oklopol> i have like 7 big boxes of friendly words of advice in my base.
22:53:14 <elliott> whole big boxes of books of advice.
22:53:22 <oklopol> by whole books of advice, i should probably go to sleep
22:53:59 <elliott> oklopol: what do you call it when you start a new world, walk around for most of the day, take in the sights, explore tons, build something small, die much much later, respawn, and find out that you built that thing at spawn?
22:54:05 <elliott> i can't walk in straight lines :D
22:54:42 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/29876/ THEY'VE FOUND OUR SECRET
22:55:30 <oklopol> elliott: you call that the circle of life
22:55:32 <elliott> Gregor: I don't remember anything about ear juice in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.
22:55:48 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
22:55:58 <elliott> ugliest box ever? with the logo at both sides, flipped on one
22:55:59 <Gregor> elliott: That's because we'd kept it a secret even through then, but now the damned Chinese have found it!
22:56:17 <elliott> seriously, every time i go to wp i'm like "wait this isn't wp, what the fuck is that logo"
22:56:53 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: the filename is best though
22:56:56 <elliott> File:Jimmy Wales Fundraiser Appeal edit.jpg
22:57:22 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: I doubt it :P
22:57:33 <Phantom__Hoover> Is Jew's ear Juice juice squeezed from a Jew's ear or juice that Jews pour into their ears?
22:57:51 <Gregor> Oh good. Then they still don't REALLY know the secret.
22:57:59 <oklopol> wales must really like his face
22:58:00 <elliott> Ear juice back and forth, forever.
22:58:05 <elliott> oklopol: it's so beautiful
22:58:33 <elliott> You know what the most useful thing about the NVIDIA X Server Settings is?
22:58:33 <oklopol> well it is a loveable face, if that guy tried to sell me a vacuum cleaner, i'd buy the hell out of it
22:58:42 <elliott> It lets you enable a cursor shadow!
22:58:47 <elliott> That's the one thing I missed from Windows.
22:59:19 <Phantom__Hoover> <oklopol> wales must really like his face ← naw, it doesn't look like a sheep's at all.
22:59:39 <Ilari> Heck... I think IANA IPv4 depletion will be all over the net (and not just reedit).
22:59:41 <oklopol> LOL i get the reference :DDDDDDDDDDDDDd
23:00:02 <Ilari> At least every blog related to IPv6 or IPv4 depletion.
23:00:24 <oklopol> is it some sort of sports thing
23:01:07 <elliott> fizzie: can you not download mc skins??
23:01:11 <oklopol> ages ago, i decided i'd add something to all this ipv4 humble and jumble that's been going around on the channel
23:01:17 <elliott> what's the path to the png file?
23:02:25 <oklopol> no, this lattice is not complete
23:03:19 <Ilari> Of the two major IPv4 depletion estimates, the more pessimistic one is now in "any moment now" mode. The another gives less than a month left...
23:03:44 <elliott> Ilari: how long until RIR depletion?
23:05:06 <oklopol> i wonder how long it would take to make an ipv4 protocol from scratch
23:05:12 -!- MrPhone has joined.
23:05:44 <oklopol> maybe i should do a ted talk on that
23:06:17 <MrPhone> This is variable; curious does have any (good) graphics libraries?
23:06:21 <Ilari> That's difficult to estimate. Especially due publicity from IANA depletion... I hope that one graph I saw was misleading due to incorrect data processing...
23:07:00 <Phantom__Hoover> We have that non-Euclidean raytracer which I have not been working on solidly for about 6 months.
23:07:44 <elliott> MrPhone: There's an SDL binding.
23:07:44 <Ilari> Non-Euclidean? Elliptic and Hyperbolic geometries? Or just General Relativity?
23:08:00 <MrPhone> Does haskell have something like tk or gtk?
23:08:14 <elliott> MrPhone: gtk2hs is a binding to gtk.
23:08:26 <elliott> MrPhone: There's also Qt, I think... and Cocoa
23:08:36 <Phantom__Hoover> And I don't even understand what the objects half of GR's equations rely on are so...
23:08:39 <elliott> MrPhone: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html
23:08:44 <elliott> MrPhone: Look at the categories :)
23:08:57 <elliott> MrPhone: But what you want is a GUI toolkit, not a graphics library.
23:09:18 <elliott> MrPhone: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Gtk2Hs Gtk2Hs is your best bet.
23:09:27 <elliott> MrPhone: It's widely-used, well-maintained, and I gather has a decent API.
23:09:31 <MrPhone> Will look later -on phone now due to busted internet
23:09:59 <elliott> Of course it's not "perfect" as its use is mostly imperative/object oriented since Gtk is, but hey, it's not like you'd write all of your program in IO anyway.
23:09:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Ilari, FWIW, I was kind of hoping that I'd be able to get it to do hyperbolic and elliptical geometries and maybe if thins turned out really well some arbitrary manifolds.
23:10:07 <MrPhone> And thanks for the reference
23:10:13 <elliott> There are some experimental projects to do purely-functional GUIs, but they're not really mature enough to use in practice.
23:10:27 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: fizzie: I have a new skin and it's even more beautiful than my last one: http://minecraft.net/skin/skin.jsp?user=ehird
23:10:31 <Ilari> Oh yeah, GR includes SR and SR is dynamic.
23:11:13 <elliott> j-invariant: did you get those mods installed?
23:11:19 <Phantom__Hoover> I fell at the first stumbling block of not actually understanding how geodesic rays are calculated.
23:11:27 <elliott> j-invariant: aw, did you not bother or was there a problem
23:11:46 <fizzie> elliott: Very rainbowy. (And yes, the URLs the client prints out don't seem to work for any old web browser; I don't know if it's about request headers or something.)
23:11:55 <elliott> fizzie: Worked for me, I just wgetted it.
23:11:56 <MrPhone> Elliott - no tab completion
23:12:02 <elliott> j-invariant: you have no java plugin :P
23:12:16 <elliott> j-invariant: preview: http://minecraft.net/skin/ehird.png
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23:12:50 <elliott> fizzie: Did you see how Notch is offering pirated versions of Minecraft due to his own incompetence?
23:14:05 <elliott> You know, variable has been converted to the Functional Order rather well.
23:16:46 <Sgeo> I could be in a better mood right now
23:16:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Did KT AT not show up *again*?
23:17:11 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, I convinced him to learn Haskell.
23:17:17 <Sgeo> But my happiness is pretty much entirely eclipsed by a belief she holds
23:17:39 <elliott> don't even joke about that
23:17:49 <Sgeo> elliott, none of those are potentially lethal [I started typing this before you mentioned homeopathy]
23:18:14 <fizzie> A real-life breatharianist would be the awesome.
23:18:19 <elliott> fizzie: They do exist, you know.
23:18:19 <fizzie> elliott: No, I didn't.
23:18:25 <Sgeo> That Vitamin C can essentially cure cancer, and chemotherapy is essentially vitamin C.
23:18:34 <elliott> You dodged a bullet, my friend.
23:18:44 <Sgeo> And this is the LAST person I'd expect to hold such a belief
23:18:57 * elliott notes to self: never let Phantom__Hoover near anyone I love.
23:19:03 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: hey don't dis that, Dick Lipton believes P=NP. maybe.
23:19:20 <elliott> fizzie: The client downloads minecraft.jar?auth=...&..., but you can actually just elide the ? and everything after and it lets you download it.
23:19:31 <elliott> fizzie: Notch quality protection.
23:19:34 <j-invariant> people actually beleive P=NP? not just to be contrary?
23:19:35 <Sgeo> Shortly after I met her, I was _convinced_ that she wouldn't hold such a belief
23:19:36 <elliott> I can't wait for the Mojang condom.
23:19:45 <elliott> j-invariant: Dick Lipton :-P
23:20:13 <elliott> Sgeo: There are plenty of females in the universe ... and most of them don't even believe that Vitamin C causes cancer.
23:20:22 <Sgeo> elliott, you read what I said wrong
23:20:26 <Sgeo> Or you mistyped
23:20:29 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm saying that it isn't a big deal :P
23:20:39 <elliott> Sgeo: But I am kind of upset, because now I have to start preparing another silly name...
23:20:57 <Sgeo> The thing is, you wouldn't expect a cancer survivor to hold such a belief
23:21:36 <elliott> She probably shoots people for fun.
23:21:52 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: the "maybe" is part of his belief, though.
23:22:13 <Vorpal> <fizzie> A real-life breatharianist would be the awesome. <-- what do they believe?
23:22:16 <elliott> Sgeo: So, so, wait, what cured her -- did she drink a lot of orange juice and it cleared itself up?
23:22:27 <elliott> Or was it, uh, lots of medical expertise and chemotherapy?
23:22:42 <Sgeo> She got chemo. She's not against regular medicine
23:22:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: hey maybe she's the reincarnation of Linus Pauling. that would be cool. sort of.
23:22:56 <elliott> Sgeo: But seriously, SHE BELIEVES CHEMOTHERAPY IS BASICALLY VITAMIN C?
23:23:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Did you point out to her that vitamin C doesn't make you bald?
23:23:39 <elliott> Just nobody's taken enough yet.
23:23:45 <elliott> Chemotherapy results in LOTS of Vitamin C.
23:23:58 <Sgeo> She believes that vitamin C is free of side-effects
23:24:03 <Sgeo> And thus is better than chemo
23:24:06 <elliott> Sgeo: So it doesn't cure cancer?
23:24:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: That you can survive without eating; the justifications vary, sometimes you get things from the air by breathing, other times from the sunlight.
23:24:17 <elliott> "Oh god, I was drinking this orange juice and the most horrible thing happened... my cancer got cured!"
23:24:31 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: No, you see, only radiation Vitamin C causes hair falling out.
23:24:34 <Sgeo> I think she was cured of her cancer before she formed this belief
23:24:36 <elliott> Regular Vitamin C is better, because it doesn't.
23:24:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, real life ones would be rather short lived
23:24:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: One of 'em took the Randi test, and was found sneaking into McDonald's around 04am, IIRC. But he said he just went there to breath in the nutrients.
23:25:07 <fizzie> Or maybe it was just some generic test and Randi reported it in the blog.
23:25:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:25:20 <fizzie> (I think he has a standing rule of not testing that sort of silliness.)
23:25:38 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's pure Vitamin C-enriched uranium.
23:25:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: James Randi, a noted skeptic.
23:26:06 <elliott> Vorpal doesn't know who Randi is? lol.
23:26:09 <fizzie> (And a stage magician.)
23:26:31 <elliott> fizzie: There was one where they first did it in a city, deteriorated; "yeah well the air isn't pure enough!"; did it in the beautiful countryside, condition deteriorated, testers said fuck it, and cancelled it.
23:26:56 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:26:58 <elliott> fizzie: But yeah, another famous breatharianist has been found ordering meals on planes and such.
23:27:02 <fizzie> j-invariant: "James Randi James Randi has an international reputation as a magician and escape artist --", directly from randi.org; I'm pretty sure he's called it magic too.
23:27:34 <elliott> A magician is an illusionist; a magician does magic tricks; magic tricks are illusions; a magician does not do magic, but "magic" is a common abbreviation for magic tricks.
23:27:41 <elliott> So really it's fine to say he does magic, because it's an abbreviation in context.
23:27:46 <Phantom__Hoover> 01:29:13 * Sgeo decides not to state his sexual wishes in the channel
23:27:59 <elliott> But what are your sexual wishes Sgeo? We need to know!
23:29:39 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: impossible. blood is not kosher!
23:31:34 <Phantom__Hoover> Clearly this is why his stepmother didn't want him seeing non-Jewish girls.
23:31:49 <oerjan> it all makes sense now!
23:33:57 <elliott> does anyone have that archive of the frappr, just realised i lost mine
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23:34:53 <Gregor> http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/images/gallery/necrocard.jpg lawlwtf
23:35:46 -!- variable has joined.
23:36:13 <elliott> Gregor: that was actually made by some i think performance artist who actually carries it
23:36:17 <elliott> not that it holds any legal weight of course :)
23:40:58 <oklopol> i'd rather have sex after my death than be eaten by worms
23:41:35 <zzo38> I would rather not be buried when I am dead
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23:43:01 <zzo38> I also would rather not funeral for when I am dead
23:44:23 <Sgeo> I would rather not die\
23:45:32 <elliott> yeah eral is latin for not at all
23:47:20 <Gregor> Dingus Maximus died. Well that's fun eral.
23:47:46 <oklopol> i just got what elliott meant by that
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23:48:20 <Gregor> oklopol: /nick oklodurp
23:48:48 <Phantom__Hoover> <Sgeo> I would rather not die\ ← UNTIL YOU BECOME SENESCENT AND ARE PHAGOCYTOSED BY A SEXY MACROPHAGE
23:48:56 <cheater-> +quote <oklopol> I'M ACTUALLY BBER SMART
23:48:56 <Gregor> Bieber Smart? That doesn't sound very smart at all ...
23:50:47 <elliott> j-invariant: Could not deduce (Peano n) from the context (Peano (S n))
23:51:08 <oklopol> there was some other justin
23:51:16 <oklopol> i guess there could be two famous justins
23:51:41 <oklopol> that's like some famous programmer or what
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23:51:54 <elliott> j-invariant: i should probably do it as a type family
23:52:12 <oklopol> bieber is a singer i think
23:52:20 <oklopol> and has a really high voice?
23:52:48 <oklopol> i read this in a youtube comment i think
23:53:54 <oklopol> YOU SAY JUSTIN BIEBER, I SAY METAL BAND #1; YOU SAY SPICE GIRLS, I SAY METAL BAND #2; etc.
23:54:06 <oklopol> i have to conclude people who listen to metal are retarded
23:54:56 <oklopol> You say? Justin Bieber,I say PARAMORE!!! You say Lady Gaga,I say Evanescence You say Miley Cyrus,I say Slipknot You say? T-Pain,I say Three Days Grace You say Emenem,I say Linkin Park You say Jonas Brother,Isay Green Day
23:54:58 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, the correct deduction is "people who comment on music videos on YouTube are retarded."
23:55:16 <oklopol> 92% of teens have turned to pop and hip-hop.If? you are part of the? 8% that still listens to real music, copy and paste this message to 5 other videos.? DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ROCK AND ROLL DIE!!!!!!!
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23:55:56 <oklopol> are you sure it wins the actual content in stupidity?
23:56:04 <oklopol> i mean, they actually DO copy paste that around :D
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23:58:29 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, I'm not a murderer, and I still like her
23:58:42 <Sgeo> Just... am fearful for her safety
23:59:11 <Sgeo> I would not stab someone who believes that they are immortal, either
23:59:12 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: did you suggest he kill her or what?
23:59:40 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, I suggested he put benzene in her perfume in order to demonstrate that vitamin C does not, in fact, cure cancer.
00:00:05 <oklopol> also who puts slipknot and evanescence on the same list :D what's their connection?
00:00:15 <oklopol> "electric guitar -> metal!"
00:00:29 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:00:50 <oklopol> and who puts eminem and justin bieber on the same list
00:01:07 <oklopol> well umm maybe i shouldn't analyze this further
00:01:11 <Sgeo> They're both jokingly made fun of by some group
00:01:40 <oklopol> i'm referring to the thing i pasted
00:04:06 <Sgeo> People hate Justin Bieber for no reason, and I'm sure people hate Eminem for no reason
00:04:11 <oklopol> YOU SAY C++, I SAY BRAINFUCK!!!!! YOU SAY JAVA, I SAY UNLAMBDA!! 6% OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03% SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, COPY AND PASTE THIS TO 5 OTHER PROGRAMMING CHANNELS!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ETC
00:04:11 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:04:17 -!- sshc has joined.
00:04:29 <oklopol> i would make a great retard
00:04:33 <oklopol> really i wouldn't have to change a thing
00:04:57 <j-invariant> YOU SAY C++, I SAY BRAINFUCK!!!!! YOU SAY JAVA, I SAY UNLAMBDA!! 6% OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03% SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, COPY AND PASTE THIS TO 5 OTHER PROGRAMMING CHANNELS!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T LET THE SPIRIT OF ETC
00:05:16 <oklopol> j-invariant: what were the channels?
00:05:28 <oklopol> darn, i wish elliott was here
00:05:48 <elliott> "6% OF PEOPLE HAVE TURNED TO PROGRAMMING, IF YOU ARE IN THE 0.03% SUBSET THAT USES REAL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES"
00:05:54 <elliott> i think there's a /prog/ meme like that :}
00:06:24 <oklopol> well it's kind of an obvious joke, so obvious that it took me quite a lot of effort to make myself write it.
00:06:53 <oklopol> i used to see that youtube comment like daily
00:07:10 <elliott> wait Sgeo is still going to date ktat?
00:07:52 <oklopol> why wouldn't he date ktat?
00:08:08 <elliott> oklopol: she believes vitamin c causes cancer, and that chemotherapy is essentially vitamin c
00:08:14 <Sgeo> elliott, cures
00:08:22 <elliott> oklopol: (and is a cancer survivor herself, cured by chemotherapy, not vitamin c)
00:08:28 <elliott> oh wait i forgot, they're the same thing
00:08:31 <elliott> because radiation is a vitamin
00:09:01 <Sgeo> I think [hope] she knows radiation isn't a vitamin
00:09:13 <elliott> Sgeo: then how is chemotherapy vitamin c
00:09:22 <oklopol> elliott: everyone laughed at einstein when he told the world center of physics that the earth is actually the center of time but look what happened
00:09:39 <Sgeo> Chemotherapy != radiation
00:09:48 <elliott> Sgeo: i am aware, how's chemotherapy vitamin c
00:10:04 <Sgeo> She mentioned some documentary...
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00:10:25 <oklopol> chemotherapy != radiation? i thought that was the essential part
00:10:27 <elliott> yeah but you see the thing is chemotherapy has nothing to do with vitamin c
00:10:30 -!- sshc has joined.
00:11:04 <oklopol> ALSO WHO CARES WHAT A GIRL THINKS AS LONG AS THERE'S PROSPECT OF SEX
00:11:32 <oklopol> that needed to be said i think
00:11:51 <elliott> oklopol: but Sgeo has said he's not sure he'd like sex before! all he wants is opinions on vitamin c
00:11:54 <elliott> and boy, these opinions are low-quality
00:12:15 <oklopol> i knew this guy who said he didn't like sex, masturbation was better
00:12:33 <Sgeo> elliott, how do you have such a good memory?
00:12:38 <Sgeo> oklopol, Mike?/
00:12:47 <elliott> Sgeo: because i remember things that are really strange, and you're fucking weird.
00:12:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: a guy i went to high school with
00:13:27 <oklopol> elliott: do you remember something i've said?
00:14:05 <oklopol> i've certainly dabbled in dogging
00:14:38 <zzo38> I am here now. I was away before sorry someone tried to call me
00:15:12 <oklopol> dunno if it's nice or bad, but it's certainly different from human food
00:15:24 <elliott> zzo38: why don't you want a funeral
00:15:25 <oklopol> and i've only tried the dry stuff
00:15:28 <olsner> there will be people with a serious fetish for behaving like a pet dog and eating dog food out of a bowl
00:15:46 <Sgeo> http://sexylosers.com/053.html [NSFW NSFW NSFW]
00:15:49 <zzo38> I want to funeral for me and no bury me. The funeral and these things is cost money and I do not like it.
00:15:50 <olsner> wouldn't be surprising if it's called dogging too
00:16:17 <Sgeo> ^^relevant to what oklopol said about that guy
00:16:26 <zzo38> You can make my body to use, such as making wig by the hair, making writing by the blood (perhaps some lie about how I died?), and the rest of the body for eating??
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00:17:13 <zzo38> oklopol: No sex. (Of course I am dead and I will therefore not stop you, but surely sex of the dead is doesn't even make sense??)
00:17:14 -!- sshc has joined.
00:17:52 <oklopol> necrophilia with a man would obviously have the dead guy as a bottom
00:18:21 <oklopol> i don't know since i'm a completely straight necrophiliac
00:18:24 <olsner> I would assume it goes all ways
00:18:58 <oklopol> gay necro is just weeeeird
00:19:06 <zzo38> The more time you waste with sex from dead, the body will be rotten and then it will be no good for anything whatsoever (except, perhaps, source of carbon).
00:19:06 <olsner> just... always assume some people are weirder than you thought possible
00:19:34 <oklopol> i mean come on, who wants to see two guys kiss each other and one is dead, two girls (one being dead), sure, everyone likes that but two guys.. (and one is dead) that's just sick
00:20:03 <olsner> necrophilic cannibals finish quick so they can have fresher meat
00:20:07 <zzo38> You have to eat right away while it is still on the line of live and dead. But you also have to pull your hair, not only so you can see who is strong enough to pull the hair, but also so that you can make wig.
00:20:12 <oklopol> zzo38: it will have been good for the sex, at least you can have sex multiple times, you can only eat a body once
00:20:20 <oklopol> although i guess you'll get a lot of meat from one body
00:20:32 <zzo38> oklopol: But you cannot make proper sex with the dead!
00:20:47 <elliott> You can if they're still warm!
00:20:59 <zzo38> (Of course, it is possible to be bald when dead, and then you will have no hair to pull)
00:21:13 <olsner> meat should be cured for better taste though, I would assume this goes for humans too
00:21:48 <zzo38> olsner: No! I disallowed you to sell human meats in the store!
00:22:25 <oklopol> why couldn't you have sex with someone who's dead, zzo38?
00:22:29 <zzo38> No. Are you drunk?
00:22:38 <elliott> why couldn't you have sex with someone who's dead, zzo38?
00:22:39 <oklopol> do you just mean because it's gross, or like some physical reason
00:22:47 <zzo38> oklopol: Because it is not proper sex.
00:23:06 <zzo38> I wouldn't expect it to work so well or proper.
00:23:08 <oklopol> what about sex with someone who's unconscious?
00:23:20 <elliott> zzo38: how is it not proper?
00:23:20 <olsner> oklopol: yuck! that's just weird
00:23:35 <zzo38> oklopol: In that case, they are still live, and they didn't tell you consent, so you should not do that either.
00:23:43 <zzo38> (But for different reason)
00:24:04 <olsner> you can consent to unconscious sex just as you can for post-mortem sex
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00:24:14 -!- sshc has joined.
00:24:21 <oklopol> how do you know they "didn't tell you consent"? and we're not talking about whether you should do it, but whether it'd be proper sex
00:24:35 <elliott> olsner: well except that you're going to wake up if you're unconscious... and are also still a sentient being
00:24:35 <oklopol> olsner: i think legally you can't consent to post-mortem sex
00:24:40 <zzo38> Is it possible to write a note from blood of the recently deceased, about how they died?
00:24:44 <oklopol> but legally, you can consent to unconscious sex, prolly
00:24:49 <elliott> olsner: so post-mortem is a bit different
00:24:55 <elliott> zzo38: "I died getting the blood to write this note"
00:24:58 <zzo38> oklopol: Well, I guess if they told you consent ahead of time for unconscious sex, it is different.
00:25:04 <elliott> zzo38: so why can sex with a dead person not be proper?
00:25:33 <oklopol> zzo38: we don't care about the consent part... or is sex somehow different depending on whether it's immoral or not?
00:25:34 <zzo38> elliott: Because sex must involve two people and their body of sex is not function properly once dead, therefore it is improper.
00:25:49 <elliott> zzo38: how does it not function properly, like, how does that stop sex being proper?
00:25:59 <olsner> not sure about the legalities, of course, but if someone decides their burial should involve sex shouldn't that be exactly like deciding you want to be cremated?
00:26:03 <elliott> zzo38: as in -- what parts of the body are (1) required for sex to be proper and (2) not functioning past death?
00:26:23 <elliott> olsner: ashes to ashes... dust to dust... genitalia to genitalia...
00:26:24 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know, I am not a doctor. Nor do I know about sex. Maybe you should ask a sex doctor.
00:26:35 <oklopol> olsner: unless it's just plain illegal to fuck a dead body
00:26:35 <elliott> zzo38: then i don't see how you can say post-mortem sex is not proper
00:26:57 <zzo38> elliott: Of course I can say whatever I want, it doesn't make it necessarily true!
00:26:57 <oklopol> i suppose this gets a bit fine-grained, maybe you can still make the contract legally or something
00:27:04 <elliott> zzo38: well that's a bit silly
00:27:13 <elliott> oklopol: you can't make a contract saying someone can murder you
00:27:14 <olsner> I think burning a dead body is illegal too, except when part of the procedures
00:27:16 <elliott> i think it's probably similar
00:27:39 <elliott> i imagine most necrophiliacs wouldn't actually fuck a dead guy
00:27:41 <elliott> for, you know, safety reasons
00:27:43 <cheater-> what if you hump the body so fast the friction creates spontaneous combustion
00:28:04 <olsner> wouldn't that also cause self-immolation?
00:28:06 <oklopol> elliott: fucking a fresh body doesn't sound very dangerous tho
00:28:16 <cheater-> not if you're wearing an asbestos condom
00:28:26 <cheater-> and besides, we're not even debating that aspect really :D
00:28:27 <elliott> oklopol: well it'd be a bit cold still
00:28:38 <elliott> muscles frozen up and stuff
00:28:49 <elliott> i dunno it still sounds unsanitary :D
00:29:15 <oklopol> asses are full of shit and still we stick our dicks in them without protection
00:29:34 <Sgeo> That's the name of the bullshit that she saw
00:30:23 <oklopol> also i think the coldness would just be really hot if your fantasy is to fuck a dead body
00:30:50 <oklopol> i've tried a cold fleshlight for instance and that works fine
00:31:07 <zzo38> You probably will not die by writing a note from your own blood if it is one small part. But if you played mahjong with blood and your opponent won everything and they must remove all of your blood from one small hole in your arm (which is sterilized too), then it is different.
00:31:10 <oklopol> not for that purpose tho :D
00:31:25 <elliott> oklopol: chilled with ice?
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00:31:29 <oklopol> zzo38: you say weird things
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00:31:35 <elliott> oklopol: also, sane people don't stick their dicks in asses without protection :P
00:31:39 <oklopol> elliott: a dead body would be room temperature, wouldn't it
00:32:01 <elliott> Sgeo: doesn't even have a wp page
00:32:02 <olsner> with time, a dead body will approach ambient temperature
00:32:03 <elliott> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1528734/
00:32:05 <oklopol> not in uncharted asses, no
00:32:32 <elliott> <zzo38> You probably will not die by writing a note from your own blood if it is one small part. But if you played mahjong with blood and your opponent won everything and they must remove all of your blood from one small hole in your arm (which is sterilized too), then it is different.
00:32:38 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Food+Matters%22
00:32:57 <zzo38> elliott: Can you play mahjong? Can you read Akagi manga book?
00:33:07 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:33:08 <elliott> no. it is physically impossible for me to read Akagi
00:33:27 <oklopol> and the probabilities of catching std's are highly overestimated to scare young ppl into being safer, i've had unprotected sex with non-regular gf at least 4 times and i've caught only one std
00:33:28 <zzo38> elliott: Why would you?
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00:33:33 <cheater00> what if he/she dies during the act? that wouldn't be so unsanitary. i mean it's not like 50 milliseconds after death the corpse becomes a juicy tender sack of disease, riddled with bugs. it's not an old apple that's been in tupperware on the back of your car in the sun for too long
00:33:43 <elliott> oklopol: i have no words :D
00:33:49 <zzo38> These books are real books they are not magic.
00:34:02 <coppro> 19:36 < oklopol> and the probabilities of catching std's are highly overestimated to scare young ppl into being safer, i've had unprotected sex with non-regular gf at least 4 times and i've caught only one std
00:34:06 <coppro> this is not reassuring
00:34:09 <Sgeo> Just saw the trailer
00:34:14 <zzo38> I have *all* of the Akagi books, including the special edition.
00:34:30 <zzo38> But the series is still on-going.
00:34:35 <elliott> oklopol: but i already quoted it to everyone...
00:35:06 <elliott> oklopol: IS IT TRUE OR NOT
00:35:57 <oklopol> i think. it was kinda unclear, they told me i MUST HAVE CAUGHT IT, and that they'd call me when it's confirmed, gave me the treatment and sent me away
00:36:17 <oklopol> so i suppose i didn't have it, or i had such a strong strain that they figured i'll just die anyway
00:37:41 <oklopol> or i suppose it's more likely that they were actually never going to call in the first place and i just misunderstood
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00:38:26 <zzo38> Even in D&D game, my character had blue blood so I cut myself to use it to cover a potion to disguise its colors, so someone else doesn't know what color it is.
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00:38:52 <cheater00> oklopol: they took a sample of your blood but there were no blood cells in there, only cancer cells infested by HIV
00:39:07 <oklopol> zzo38: you unignored cheater00 right?
00:39:10 <zzo38> elliott: I am not in your house.
00:39:18 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes I did.
00:39:19 <elliott> zzo38: Are you not not here?
00:39:32 <zzo38> elliott: Not not where, to be specific?
00:40:08 <oklopol> cheater00: i've decided my body is naturally resistant to all forms of cancer
00:40:25 <zzo38> (I only ignored cheater00 for a short time, and even if I did not remove the ignore it is not persistent across sessions unless I put it in the init file for the IRC client)
00:40:28 <cheater00> oklopol: you're an Oklopol Realdoll
00:40:29 <oklopol> because people are all gay about how dangerous it is, i've decided to take the higher road
00:41:05 <j-invariant> elliott: now they're using inconsistent theories
00:41:21 <oklopol> j-invariant: the 0.999 vs 1 thing?
00:41:29 <cheater00> brb, need to say bye to my friends who're off on a trip
00:42:02 <oklopol> yeah say bye to your friend's whore
00:42:56 <oklopol> can someone copy and paste the interesting bits of the convo somewhee
00:43:01 <elliott> j-invariant: cale doesn't believe in an objective universe
00:43:10 <oklopol> is Cale the one who's being stupid?
00:43:18 <oklopol> i thought he's like the smartest guy on ever
00:43:31 <elliott> no he isn't being stupid apart from that
00:43:47 <j-invariant> elliott: Well I am not sure what it means, I'm interested
00:44:01 <zzo38> Which IRC clients do and do not persist ignores (and/or other things) across sessions?
00:44:48 <zzo38> elliott: Does xchat have a init file?
00:44:51 <oklopol> i don't know what a session is
00:44:56 <oklopol> sounds like a pretty useless concept
00:45:27 <zzo38> oklopol: What I mean by a session is when the program is loaded and then closed. Next time you run the program is the next session, memory from the previous session is gone.
00:45:33 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:45:39 -!- sshc has joined.
00:46:11 <zzo38> oklopol: Call it something else if you want to.
00:46:35 <oklopol> no sensible program ever had that concept, when you close a program and reopen it, obviously you start in the same state
00:47:03 <zzo38> oklopol: No, many program do not start automatically from where you left off.
00:47:18 <oklopol> zzo38: they are retarded programs and can be ignored for the purposes of this argument
00:47:33 <oklopol> studying the empty set is much easier and purer
00:47:38 <elliott> oklopol: in @, it's impossible to write a program that obeys differently when you close it!
00:47:40 <zzo38> (TeX will save state if you use \dump otherwise it will not do so)
00:47:43 <elliott> you could hook into disk save/disk load
00:47:50 <elliott> but that doesn't correspond to start/stop using necessarily at all
00:49:00 <oklopol> the only way a program can tell it has been closed and reopened is that the system clock suddenly jumps
00:49:22 <oklopol> why would someone associate with this event the emptying of all state
00:49:47 <zzo38> oklopol: I suppose if that is the way, you can make it if you do not want to save state, instead delete it when you close and create a new copy with a nwe session ID and everything when you start back up.
00:50:08 <zzo38> The program does not need to be able to tell when it has been closed or not, because you can set state by user setting instead of by program setting.
00:50:21 <oklopol> let me try to work my way through what you just said
00:50:24 <zzo38> It would also be useful to have multiple sessions, sometimes, such as working on multiple things.
00:50:31 <elliott> oklopol all mobs are invisible for me how amazing is that
00:50:42 <oklopol> "delete it when you close"
00:51:09 <oklopol> elliott: that's the way it should be, even scarier than as is
00:52:05 <zzo38> What I mean is delete the copy of the session, and then you can create a new session from the copy of the initial program.
00:52:41 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:52:49 <oklopol> "<zzo38> It would also be useful to have multiple sessions, sometimes, such as working on multiple things." <<< that is actually very true
00:53:02 <oklopol> but i'm not sure starting and closing programs is the way to do that
00:53:22 <zzo38> Which is why the session should be separate from the program itself, even if sessions are allowed to persist.
00:53:32 <oklopol> elliott: why are they invisible?
00:54:08 <oklopol> elliott: that actually sounds so scary
00:54:20 <oklopol> you'd just occasionally hear the sound of something
00:54:31 <zzo38> And then, perhaps, allow you to copy a session.
00:54:43 <elliott> oklopol: so actually, i just started losing damage
00:54:48 <elliott> and tried to run away but couldnt
00:54:52 <elliott> because i didn't know where it was
00:55:17 <elliott> oklopol: it should play monster sounds completely uncorrelated with actual monsters
00:55:18 <oklopol> there should be a game based on that
00:55:26 <elliott> hear a spider, nothing's there, but you walk a bit, and there's a zombie, totally silent, start losing health
00:55:48 <zzo38> I have some games with some things invisible.
00:56:03 <zzo38> Including I modified the ROM for Super Mario game to make Mario to be invisible, too.
00:56:16 <oklopol> mario being invisible would be just annoying
00:56:23 <zzo38> And also one pinball game with the ball is invisible.
00:56:23 <oklopol> as would mario enemies being invisible
00:56:23 <elliott> everything should be invisible
00:56:33 <oklopol> zzo38: also that sounds just annoying :D
00:56:36 <elliott> scrolling pseudorandomly triggered so you can't deduce your position from it
00:56:43 <elliott> all items, enemies, yourself, etc. are invisible and inaudible
00:56:52 <oklopol> that's just a game of luck isn't it
00:56:56 <zzo38> And there is invisible tetris (it is a mode in Lockjaw).
00:57:08 <elliott> well in pinball you already whack the flippers madly constantly anyway
00:57:14 <zzo38> oklopol: Pinball is not just a game of luck, invisible or not; flippers or not.
00:57:33 <elliott> (1) pressing flippers when you see the ball (a monkey could do this)
00:57:34 <zzo38> elliott: I do not whack the flippers madly.
00:57:38 <elliott> (2) hoping it doesn't go straight in the middle
00:57:47 <zzo38> elliott: No, it isn't. You also bump the table.
00:57:50 <oklopol> i should make a game that's like totally awesome, with contemporary 3d graphics, but everything is actually rendered as a black screen without sound
00:57:53 <zzo38> Especially if it is flipperless game.
00:57:54 <elliott> unless it completely stops
00:57:56 <elliott> in which case bump it once
00:58:02 <zzo38> I prefer flipperless pinball game.
00:58:29 <elliott> no game with one control can be good
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00:58:39 <oklopol> just like when we were making this one game which never came to be, we decided to make this big elaborate secret area that you *actually can't access in any way*
00:58:51 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you have multiple controls. You can bump it in many different directions, and you can control the plunger.
00:59:15 <elliott> oklopol: also, there was one of those in some nintendo or something game
00:59:19 <elliott> oklopol: contest winner got a special room
00:59:27 <elliott> oklopol: except that it was only in the american version
00:59:28 <oklopol> pokemon but with ulis... although it didn't have much to do with pokemon
00:59:32 <elliott> oklopol: and the american localisers removed the door
00:59:36 <elliott> so it was impossible to get to
00:59:56 <cheater00> have you ever read up on hyperreal numberz
00:59:59 <zzo38> In a real flipperless pinball game (without computer), you can bump in any direction you want and with different amounts of force.
01:00:24 <elliott> oklopol: so how goes oklocraft
01:00:36 <elliott> oklopol: almost developed?
01:00:42 <zzo38> elliott: Probably because you do not understand the strategy for playing the game.
01:01:00 <zzo38> oklopol: For pinball game, yes.
01:01:03 <elliott> zzo38: no, no, you see, my opinion is that it's rubbish
01:01:08 <oklopol> after a few bumps, the movement of the ball is random
01:01:26 <oklopol> and it usually bumps like 30 times before falling
01:01:48 <zzo38> oklopol: Timing is important. You cannot just bump it at randomly, you will almost certainly lose that way.
01:02:01 <elliott> if the flippers extended to the middle
01:02:04 <elliott> anyone could beat the world record for pinball
01:02:09 <oklopol> in some pinballs there's some sort of plot like you have to hit a certain thing and then another thing etc, so you have aim those couple of first bumps right
01:02:26 <cheater00> except not because the ball could still fall between flippers in an unlucky situation!
01:02:32 <zzo38> You also have to pay attention to all of the lights and everything, and order of targets if it is important, the velocity of the ball, and more.
01:02:35 <cheater00> and then someone who's extremely unlucky will always keep on doing that
01:02:46 <oklopol> zzo38: you call aiming the first bump of the ball to be somewhere that gives a high amount of points "strategy"?
01:03:02 <zzo38> cheater00: What is the elasticity of the flippers?
01:03:12 <zzo38> oklopol: No, that is only a small part of the game.
01:03:21 <zzo38> You have to think about the entire game which is a lot more than just that.
01:03:48 <oklopol> but you do realize when you hit the ball, it hits the first couple things as you like, and then it just jumps around randomly
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01:03:49 <zzo38> The elasticity of the various objects in the table is very important.
01:04:05 <oklopol> unless you make very precise hits that come back right away, is that the way pros play it?
01:04:08 <cheater00> zzo38: speaking of elasticity.. i should play some gish
01:04:29 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes it does do that sometimes, which is why you have to make precision and timing, and to think of how to recover from some things.
01:04:31 <elliott> yeah no pinball is boring and unstrategic
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01:04:51 <oklopol> "yes it does do that sometimes"
01:05:23 <zzo38> oklopol: Moves in the different way than expected.
01:05:29 <oklopol> whenever you let the ball jump more then 2 times, you certainly can't predict *at all* what it's going to do
01:05:49 <zzo38> That is what makes pinball a good game, you can do like that.
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01:05:54 <cheater00> oklopol: you can in (good) real pinballs
01:06:13 <cheater00> not like the pinball that came with windows nt 4
01:06:14 <oklopol> i find that hard to believe
01:06:31 <zzo38> oklopol: Which is why you might attempt to hit certain targets in order to turn on and off lights in order to improve the advantage that you might get with the ball moving different way.
01:07:19 <oklopol> zzo38: as long as you really play the game in such a way that the ball returns down at least say every 3 bumps, i believe you're actually controlling the game.
01:07:34 <oklopol> and not just being good at catching the drops that almost go in the middle
01:07:53 <oklopol> well i don't *believe* that, but at least it could theoretically be possible
01:08:15 <zzo38> I play a pinball game called "JiggleBox". There are bumpers and drop targets and rollover targets with lights and stuff, but near the bottom, the ball can reenter the launch area, and then there is some holes, labeled "50", "100", "0", and "game over".
01:08:53 <zzo38> If you get the ball in a hole you get that many points and you lose the current ball (you get nine balls per game). If you get the ball in the hole labeled "game over", the game ends immediately, you lose all of your balls to play.
01:10:05 <zzo38> So when the ball is up high you try generally to hit targets and lights and points, and try not to make it too fast into the lower area; when it is in the lower area, try to recover so that the ball will touch the launch area, or the "100" hole, at least.
01:10:26 <oklopol> when the ball is high, you can control its movement?
01:10:56 <zzo38> oklopol: By hitting the table so that the ball deflects off of bumpers and pins and walls and drop targets in various ways.
01:11:18 <elliott> fizzie: Apparently you spawn in a random location of the first chunk in SMP. (reddit hearsay.)
01:12:02 <oklopol> i never used that because in all the pinballs i've played, it's just a small random move that is not really good for anything
01:12:02 <zzo38> oklopol: When you hit the table it gives force to the table in the direction you hit it, moving everything in one way for a short time.
01:12:21 <oklopol> does the ball's trajectory change?
01:12:46 <oklopol> or can you just make the ball touch an object if it was already going near it
01:13:40 <zzo38> oklopol: It can, a little bit, depending on friction and stuff. But usually you just make the ball touch an object that it is near, in a certain way, to increase or reduce the force with which the ball touches that object.
01:13:43 <oklopol> if the trajectory doesn't change, that's just silly optimization
01:14:02 <elliott> oklopol: i think it's to make it bounce harder
01:14:12 <zzo38> And of course the force is a vector quantity, which is also important.
01:14:25 <oklopol> well in that case the trajectory certainly does change
01:14:53 <oklopol> anyway you're not really convinving me at all
01:14:54 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, to make it bounce harder or in a different direction. (Or, sometimes less hard)
01:15:07 <elliott> yeah these are not good arguments
01:15:30 <oklopol> you're not really telling me anything i didn't know
01:15:48 <oklopol> well, i suppose it's hard to prove something that's not true
01:15:51 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:16:03 <zzo38> Pinball is all based on physics.
01:16:25 <elliott> you put the cards on top of each other
01:16:33 <zzo38> elliott: No, that doesn't count.
01:16:39 <elliott> also chess, how do you think those pieces stay on the board
01:16:59 <oklopol> zzo38: it's based on physics, point is there's so little control the movement of the ball is essentially random
01:17:09 <zzo38> elliott: Of course the games work because of physics, but chess is not a game of physics.
01:17:57 <zzo38> oklopol: It isn't. I know because I play pinball a lot and the control you have can improve the game a lot, even though there are many random movements of the ball.
01:18:32 <oklopol> i can't seem to find youtube vids of people being good a pinball
01:19:11 -!- azaq23 has left (?).
01:19:37 <zzo38> See a picture of the pinball game http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png
01:20:01 <elliott> i don't like pinball, it's bad
01:21:55 <Sgeo> I think she might not think that chemo is literally vit. C, just that it has the same effect as far as destroying cancer is conc.. wait, no
01:22:08 <oklopol> i assume people can become really awesome in these games, but i still think 1) it's mostly about very rough estimates of how to stay safe, and never failing when it's possible to catch the ball 2) a casual player will never reach anything above randomness
01:23:02 <zzo38> oklopol: You are probably correct
01:23:47 <elliott> hey oklopol you're good at x86-64 asm right
01:23:49 <oklopol> also, it's possible the pro way is indeed to either 1) actually control the ball by hitting 2) make short between-control runs by hitting in places so that the ball just falls back
01:24:03 <oklopol> elliott: i've read a book about it, i don't remember any of the actual operations though
01:24:10 <elliott> oklopol: right, so you get to write @'s kernel
01:24:32 <oklopol> if either of 1 or 2 is used, i believe the game can become non-random
01:24:39 <Sgeo> I asked her how there could be different types of chemo, and she said different doses
01:25:12 <zzo38> oklopol: You can also use a combination of those techniques.
01:25:13 <oklopol> isn't chemo = injecting some shit for fun + radiation
01:26:30 <oklopol> zzo38: so like, do you actually decide "okay, i'm going to hit that target, and then let the ball go to that other target there, then come back", or do you go "okay ima hit there", and then when it hits those two targets you go like yay i hit exactly what i wanted!
01:26:51 <oklopol> and i've played a lot of pinball
01:27:17 <oklopol> of course, only the windows pinball, so maybe there is essential difference in amount of control, but anyway.
01:27:42 <oklopol> in windows pinball, you always choose like a mission by hitting these targets
01:27:50 <zzo38> oklopol: It is selected based on a few factors, such as the current velocity of the ball and the probability of certain things working.
01:27:52 <oklopol> and then based on that mission, you have to hit certain kinds of targets
01:28:21 <oklopol> and that was all very random
01:28:43 <oklopol> like "put numbers in this prng and try to get 3452 to appear in the first 30 digits!" random
01:28:44 <elliott> zzo38: so can you give us a youtube thing
01:28:57 <zzo38> elliott: I have no YouTube things.
01:29:12 <elliott> well get one, to show us pinball
01:29:23 <elliott> <oklopol> like "put numbers in this prng and try to get 3452 to appear in the first 30 digits!" random
01:29:27 <oklopol> if there are no youtube videos of pinballing, then it's pretty obvious no one has ever become good at pinball
01:29:56 <oklopol> there's a video where this guy picks a whole glass of snot from his nose in one minute
01:30:04 <oklopol> so pinball shouldn't really be excluded
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01:30:19 <elliott> thanks i can taste snot now
01:30:36 <oklopol> once me and a friend tested whether you can drink coke through your nose and i drink a whole glass
01:30:47 <zzo38> oklopol: I have played the Windows pinball. The up arrow is a dumb key for forward bump, so you can change it to spacebar (and set the plunger key to enter). But if you hold down the bump key for more than a small fraction of a second it goes on tilt, so release the keys very quickly after pushing them.
01:31:36 <oklopol> either make hitting an essential part of the game mechanics and make like a bar that shows how much you have left to use or something, or just leave it out...
01:31:56 <zzo38> Tilt penalty is found less often on flipperless games than on flippered games.
01:32:18 <oklopol> well right, because it's copied from irl machines
01:32:29 <zzo38> Hitting *is* an essential part of the game.
01:32:46 <oklopol> but the penalty is done completely wrong
01:32:46 <elliott> oklopol: did it burn your nose
01:32:52 <zzo38> Many flipperless games do not detect tilt.
01:33:06 <oklopol> it's copied from irl games where the system WAS MADE SO THAT NO ONE COULD HIT THE BOARD EVER
01:33:13 <elliott> i don't get the tilt penalty, yeah
01:34:12 <zzo38> elliott: It won't punch you, but some games will reboot if you tilt it too hard.
01:35:02 <oklopol> i suppose the point of tilt penalty is exactly that hitting makes the game less random, and you generally want your games to be random if people are paying to play them
01:35:11 <oklopol> because otherwise good players can play longer
01:35:16 <oklopol> and you want everyone to play for a short time
01:37:35 <oklopol> but yeah, why not take hitting - a misfeature provided by reality in the irl pinballs - and then also add tilt penalty - a misfeature provided by the fact games are not actually made to be interesting, but to make money - to your computer game
01:37:48 <oklopol> what the fuck is wrong with these people
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01:44:28 <zzo38> Do you know if you will be able to help to write user-documentation/tutorials for TeXnicard?
01:49:47 <oklopol> i know *i* can't, if that helps!
01:50:04 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
01:50:13 <oklopol> and i fell on some crap earlier today and now my pants are all smelly
01:50:31 <oklopol> elliott: well you know that question you once asked
01:50:41 <zzo38> oklopol: You can't? Do you know why you can't?
01:50:47 <elliott> oklopol: oh the dog food right
01:51:00 <oklopol> elliott: one of the other ones
01:51:21 <oklopol> since you seem to be a bit short on the brain today.
01:51:21 <elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> x)))
01:51:21 <elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> v0))))
01:51:45 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: did it burn your nose"
01:52:20 <elliott> no, but i've had it come out of my nose
01:52:26 <elliott> j-invariant: i wrote the most lovely lambda calculus in haskell just now
01:52:43 <j-invariant> 01:54 < elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> x)))
01:52:43 <j-invariant> 01:54 < elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> v0))))
01:53:02 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:53:20 <elliott> j-invariant: i based it on http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/?p=95 which you've probably seen
01:53:24 <elliott> cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:joFRT78UzLkJ:sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/%3Fp%3D95+http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/%3Fp%3D95&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
01:53:33 <elliott> j-invariant: but, i used HOAS instead of de bruijn
01:53:43 <elliott> j-invariant: and now the evaluator and the quoter are crazy bidirectional!
01:54:03 <elliott> j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/ZEeS
01:54:16 <elliott> j-invariant: obviously if you just want an evaluator, you can ditch Var, SVar, showSyn and the Show instances
01:54:30 <elliott> which makes it literally just... 7 lines
01:54:42 <elliott> data Syn = Lam (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn
01:54:42 <zzo38> I think I found what report DVItype is part of (which is why it starts on page 402 instead of page 1), it is TeXware, it is listed in the bibliography for TeX. But there is no ISBN?
01:54:45 <elliott> data Sem = Sem (Sem -> Sem)
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01:54:53 <elliott> eval (Lam f) = Sem (\x -> eval (f (quote x)))
01:54:55 <elliott> eval (App f x) = f' (eval x) where Sem f' = eval f
01:54:59 <elliott> quote (Sem f) = Lam (\x -> quote (f (eval x)))
01:55:01 <elliott> j-invariant: that's all you need
01:55:10 <elliott> hey those functions are eval . f . quote
01:56:03 <elliott> *Main> nf (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
01:56:03 <elliott> (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> *** Exception: /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Main.Sem f'
01:56:37 <oklopol> i don't understand http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png
01:56:41 <j-invariant> /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed
01:56:41 <oklopol> where are the flippers floppers
01:56:48 <j-invariant> DONT USE TYPES HE SAID, IT WILL BE OKAY HE SAID.
01:56:53 <zzo38> oklopol: That is a flipperless game, there are no flippers.
01:57:03 <elliott> j-invariant: basically the problem is, (App (SVar i) ...) doesn't work
01:57:08 <elliott> and i'm not sure how to fix that without it being horrible
01:57:15 <oklopol> zzo38: oh? just hitting or?
01:57:40 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, just hitting. (Actually there is one more thing you can control -- the launch strength.)
01:58:08 <zzo38> The computer allows hitting in five directions.
01:58:09 <oklopol> so... that's fortuna, not pinball?
01:58:23 <oklopol> even more pointless a game
01:59:18 <oklopol> my internet is not flowing so i can't check if the name is international or just the name of a particular type of that game no one knows outside my apartment
01:59:19 <zzo38> JiggleBox is a pinball game, just without flippers. If you are good at it you might be able to hit all of the drop targets twice per game.
01:59:47 <oklopol> erm, pinball games last for like 15 minutes before ball drops out..
02:00:02 <oklopol> it's mostly a game of stamina...
02:00:14 <elliott> j-invariant: if i just implement an evaluator that works on pure Syn it would work :D
02:00:22 <zzo38> oklopol: If you are good at it you can make it last longer.
02:00:50 <elliott> j-invariant: or actually, I could put Add in Sem, but that is ugly!
02:01:01 <j-invariant> 02:02 < Mahcaut> ⓘⓢ ⓘⓣ ⓣⓡⓤⓔ ⓣⓗⓐⓣ ⓘⓝⓣ ⓢⓘⓝ(ⓧ) ⓘⓝⓕ ❸.1❹
02:01:14 <oklopol> longer than 15 minutes? sure, that was just an indication of what kind of game pinball is, since "you might be able to hit all of the drop targets twice per game" sounded a bit less
02:01:57 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes it does usually last less than 15 minutes. But sometimes it will go on longer.
02:02:15 <zzo38> (Also, the drop targets are not the entire game; mostly you hit the other things.)
02:02:23 <oklopol> and if you don't hit at all, it just falls down or?
02:02:35 <oklopol> or jumps around just as long
02:03:01 <zzo38> oklopol: The ball might just fall down, but it might also jump around. Usually it will jump around for a while and then fall down before you have many points.
02:03:17 <elliott> *Main> (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:03:17 <elliott> (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> (App (App v0 v1) v2)))))))
02:03:17 <elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:03:17 <elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> *** Exception: /home/elliott/Code/lc/second.hs:9:35-49: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Main.Fun f'
02:03:21 <elliott> j-invariant: yep, my Sem is insufficient
02:04:31 <zzo38> If you are not good at the game, you will probably fail to hit all of the drop targets even once.
02:05:05 <elliott> *Main> eval (Lam (\x -> Lam (\y -> Lam (\z -> App (App x y) z))))
02:05:05 <elliott> eval (Lam (\v0 -> (Lam (\v1 -> (Lam (\v2 -> (App (App v0 v1) v2)))))))
02:05:50 <elliott> *Main> eval (App (Lam (\x -> x)) (Lam (\x -> x)))
02:05:53 <elliott> j-invariant: it works, how amazing is that
02:06:10 <elliott> 7-lines extended with full printing functionality that actually works as Show
02:06:14 <elliott> i.e. the result is valid Haskell
02:06:19 <elliott> (with the same result always)
02:06:42 <j-invariant> 02:09 < Mahcaut> ⓘⓢ ⓘⓣ ⓣⓡⓤⓔ ⓣⓗⓐⓣ ʃ ⓢⓘⓝ(ⓧ/ⓨ) ∝ ξ
02:09:19 <elliott> j-invariant: what the fuck is this xD
02:09:47 <elliott> <what> how do you get the limits of factorials
02:10:32 <elliott> j-invariant: is it bad if my Sem type contains things that could be evaluated further?
02:10:38 <elliott> in my defence, my functions never produce such values
02:11:38 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm asking for, like, spiritual guidance here
02:12:41 <elliott> j-invariant: but i need it to do proper showing! :P
02:12:57 <elliott> j-invariant: the only other way is to have an extra type with its own evaluator for no real reason...
02:13:10 <elliott> j-invariant: basically, you could say (SApp (Fun ...) ...), even though that should never happen
02:13:54 <elliott> j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/dCVK
02:14:08 <elliott> j-invariant: Var, SApp, and SVar exist solely to support showing
02:14:13 <elliott> j-invariant: but the only problematic one is SApp
02:14:27 <elliott> in that you can construct (SApp (Fun ...) ...), which should be reduced to ((...) ...)
02:14:38 <elliott> no function there ever constructs that
02:15:08 <elliott> j-invariant: well it isn't
02:15:19 <elliott> SApp is used differently to App
02:15:25 <elliott> how do you suggest I do this?
02:16:12 <elliott> data Syn = Lam (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn
02:16:12 <elliott> data Sem = Fun (Sem -> Sem)
02:16:12 <elliott> eval (Lam f) = Fun (eval . f . quote)
02:16:12 <elliott> eval (App f x) = f' (eval x) where Fun f' = eval f
02:16:15 <elliott> quote (Fun f) = Lam (quote . f . eval)
02:16:22 <elliott> extend Syn and preferably Sem to have a Show instance
02:16:29 <elliott> in the most elegant, clean and short way possible
02:16:42 <j-invariant> I tohught you have to have a variable thing in there
02:17:04 <elliott> j-invariant: it's beautiful :D
02:17:14 <elliott> i love how the Lam and Fun cases are mirrors of each other
02:20:51 <elliott> j-invariant: any ideas on how to extend it?
02:21:29 <elliott> <elliott> extend Syn and preferably Sem to have a Show instance
02:21:29 <elliott> <elliott> in the most elegant, clean and short way possible
02:21:44 <j-invariant> well you need a syntax without lambda in is
02:22:00 <elliott> j-invariant: it works fine with those, you just pass a gensym
02:22:23 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah but isn't that the same as basically passing a gensym
02:22:31 <elliott> i guess it's because you can't really evaluate (f x) where f is a free variable
02:22:36 <elliott> j-invariant: ok so do you suggest i make this a third type?
02:23:09 <j-invariant> elliott: well maybe it is the same as GENSYM, but what I mean is that the lambda in Syn is completely cosmetic. Whereas the lambda in Sem is actually essential
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02:24:40 <elliott> hmm what should i call the new type :D
02:27:35 <elliott> j-invariant: i can't write Syn -> Named
02:27:39 <elliott> because i'd have to pass a gensym
02:27:58 <elliott> j-invariant: I don't think there is *any* way of doing this without introducing a dummy Var type into Syn
02:28:03 <elliott> which then requires a brother in Sem
02:30:26 <elliott> lol http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65201 stole my fucking name
02:30:41 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah i'm lost as to how to do it...
02:30:58 <elliott> j-invariant: but really elegant for this
02:32:00 <j-invariant> elliott: btw, http://i.imgur.com/m4W5N.png
02:34:12 <elliott> j-invariant: hey wow how did you get it rendering like that
02:34:37 <elliott> j-invariant: but, err, it looks like you're mixing up your polynomials and your renderings of polynomials
02:34:47 <elliott> j-invariant: I would put the rendering code in another module or whatever to avoid clashing?
02:35:15 <elliott> j-invariant: why can't you do that :)
02:35:33 <j-invariant> elliott: I can do polynomials on their own, and modular arithmetic on it's own.. But how do I do polynomials with modular arithmetic coefficients?
02:35:54 <j-invariant> basically I have to start combining LaTeX cleverly)
02:36:58 <j-invariant> elliott: every. single. thing... I add to this program ends up being a huge hassle
02:37:11 <elliott> j-invariant: ok i need to ask you
02:37:21 <elliott> j-invariant: why are you representing things with their latex display?!?!??!!
02:37:33 <elliott> maintain polynomials as abstract objects and then handle rendering to latex in another module
02:37:37 <elliott> that seems like the only sane thing to do by far ...
02:39:25 <j-invariant> elliott: I cna't be bothered fixing this I just wish it waws done
02:39:42 <elliott> j-invariant: well it seems like your program is structured very wrongly
02:39:56 <elliott> j-invariant: it's like you've defined + on IO Ints instead of Ints
02:40:04 <elliott> i mean, why would you even do that
02:40:09 <elliott> latex is a separate thing!
02:42:46 <elliott> j-invariant: gimme the file :P
02:42:56 <elliott> also, only if you help program scapegoat
02:42:59 <elliott> j-invariant: tar it up then
02:43:27 <j-invariant> step 1 of putting smoething in a scapegoat repo: Implement scapegoat?
02:43:28 <elliott> *Main> showVarred 0 (varify (Lam (\x -> x)))
02:43:28 <elliott> "(\\v0 -> ((\\v1 -> ((\\v2 -> ((\\v3 -> ((\\v4 -> ((\\v5 -> ((\\v6 -> ((\\v7 -> ((\\v8 -> ((\\v9 -> ((\\v10 -> ((\\v11 -> ((\\v12 -> ((\\v13 -> ((\\v14 -> ((\\v15 -> ((\\v16 -> ((\\v17 -> ((\\v18 -> ((\\v19 -> ((\\v20 -> ((\\v21 -> ((\\v22 -> ((\\v23 -> ((\\v24 -> ((\\v25 -> ((\\v26 -> ((\\v27 -> ((\\v28 -> ((\\v29 -> ((\\v30 -> ((\\v31 -> ((\\v32 -> ((\\v33 -> ((\\v34 -> ((\\v35 -> ((\\v36 -> ((\\v37 -> ((\\v38 -> ((\\v39 -> ((\\v40 -> ((\\v41 -
02:43:28 <elliott> > ((\\v42 -> ((\\v43 -> ((\\v44 -> ((\\v45 -> ((\\v46 -> ((\\v47 -> ((\\v48 -> ((\\v49 -> ((\\v50 -> ((\\v51 -> ((\\v52 -> ((\\v53 -> ((\\v54 -> ((\\v55 -> ((\\v56 -> ((\\v57 -> ((\\v58 -> ((\\v59 -> ((\\v60 -> ((\\v61 -> ((\\v62 -> ((\\v63 -> ((\\v64 -> ((\\v65 -> ((\\v66 -> ((\\v67 -> ((\\v68 -> ((\\v69 -> ((\\v70 -> ((\\v71 -> ((\\v72 -> ((\\v73 -> ((\\v74 -> ((\\v75 -> ((\\v76 -> ((\\v77 -> ((\\v78 -> ((\\v79 -> ((\\v80 -> ((\\v81 -> ((\\v82
02:43:29 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `->'
02:43:31 <elliott> -> ((\\v83 -> ((\\v84 -> ((\\v85 -> ((\\v86 -> ((\\v87 -> ((\\v88 -> ((\\v89 -> ((\\v90 -> ((\\v91 -> ((\\v92 -> ((\\v93 -> ((\\v94 -> ((\\v95 -> ((\\v96 -> ((\\v97 -> ((\\v98 -> ((\\v99 -> ((\\v100 -> ((\\v101 -> ((\\v102 -> ((\\v103 -> ((\\v104 -> ((\\v105 -> ((\\v106 -> ((\\v107 -> ((\\v108 -> ((\\v109 -> ((\\v110 -> ((\\v111 -> ((\\v112 -> ((\\v113 -> ((\\v114 -> ((\\v115 -> ((\\v116 -> ((\\v117 -> ((\\v118 -> ((\\v119 -> ((\\v120 -> ((\\v121
02:43:36 <elliott> -> ((\\v122 -> ((\\v123 -> ((\\v124 -> ((\\v125 -> ((\\v126 -> ((\\v127 -> ((\\v128 -> ((\\v129 -> ((\\v130 -> ((\\v131 -> ((\\v132 -> ((\\v133 -> ((\\v134 -> ((\\v135 -> ((\\v136 -> ((\\v137 -> ((\\v138 -> ((\\v139 -> ((\\v140 -> ((\\v141 -> ((\\v142 -> ((\\v143 -> ((\\v144 -> ((\\v145 -> ((\\v146 -> ((\\v147 -> ((\\v148 -> ((\\v149 -> ((\\v150 -> ((\\v151 -> ((\\v152 -> ((\\v153 -> ((\\v154 -> ((\\v155 -> ((\\v156 -> ((\\v157 -> ((\\v158 ->
02:43:41 <elliott> j-invariant: i think my code is broken
02:43:53 <elliott> that was copy and paste magic!
02:46:22 <elliott> j-invariant: it's so cool except you CAN'T FUCKING PRINT SHIT OUT
02:46:36 <elliott> j-invariant: so are you totally coding scapegoat
02:55:42 <j-invariant> elliott: A LaTeX object will render "\\sqrt{2}" for example... what should that stsring be called?
02:55:58 <elliott> j-invariant: where it can be any object being rendered?
02:56:28 <j-invariant> (struct latex (string) ...) <-- need a better name for the string :/
02:56:31 <elliott> j-invariant: seriously though... you want to make polynomial an abstract structure, now, and have one function to do latex rendering
02:56:49 <elliott> j-invariant: call it "code"
02:56:59 <elliott> j-invariant: wait, what is the rest of struct latex
02:57:07 <elliott> j-invariant: wait, what is the rest of struct latex
02:58:05 <j-invariant> elliott: it has a custom print method to render and display itself
02:58:15 <elliott> j-invariant: so it has only one field?
02:58:27 <elliott> j-invariant: I suggest you ditch that model.
02:58:50 <elliott> j-invariant: Have to-latex, taking a polynomial, and outputting a LaTeX string. Then have render-latex, taking a LaTeX string, and outputting a Racket picture.
02:58:58 <elliott> j-invariant: Then have render, which is just render-latex . to-latex
02:59:07 <elliott> j-invariant: This will be much simpler, and you don't have to come up with variable names :-)
02:59:16 <elliott> Structures with one element are a bit iffy in Scheme I would say, they feel wrong
02:59:32 <elliott> Remember that you can use a single type for many semantic meanings in Scheme and derivatives
02:59:46 <elliott> And if you can do things nicely with an existing type, such as strings and pictures, you should
02:59:57 <elliott> j-invariant: try that model, I think it'll turn out cleanly
03:00:44 <elliott> fizzie: Why did you remove the gio dependency from mcmap?
03:01:27 <elliott> fizzie: Also: Can I factor out the platform-specific bits (i.e. the ifdef WIN32/else) into a win32.c and a posix.c, so that the rest of the code just calls functions? ifdef-portability really irks me.
03:03:26 <elliott> ineiros: Oh, look at that; hMod isn't going to be updated.
03:03:35 <elliott> Stock Minecraft server until Bukkit comes out which will take months.
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06:22:33 <fizzie> I had to do it with raw sockets to fix the Windows build (since GIO sockets there are just too broken); since I had that in place already I realized I could just use the same code for both. Also "yes", assuming it doesn't go all messy-looking from that.
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06:47:10 <fizzie> Heh, so hMod won't be updated because they couldn't figure out how to do that even after being "all day" at it; everyone knows that either you can do it in a day or else it's just impossible.
06:47:52 <fizzie> Anyway, just because they won't doesn't mean someone else won't go through the trouble of cobbling together a build.
06:50:53 <fizzie> At least Bukkit is enterprisey enough to have trouble with "licensing issues" such that they need to "get in contact with Mojang to discuss what we're doing".
06:51:25 <fizzie> Minecraft server mods seem to be serious business.
06:55:24 <fizzie> Incidentally, someone's public server (the alarmingly named "FurMine") is listed as to having a beta 1.2 hMod build.
06:57:20 <fizzie> Also a Finnish server ("Kemicraft") says they're running 1.2_01 with their own unofficial hMod build.
07:00:34 <fizzie> (They also sell "VIP privileges" == access to a kit for 3/5/10 EUR -- steel/diamond/both kits -- on Kemicraft. That's enterprisey in a whole another way.)
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07:15:39 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, same thing.
07:15:52 <pikhq> Care to explain the significance thereof?
07:17:57 <zzo38> Do you know how many different names the normal chess game is called by?
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07:20:55 <zzo38> What can you make out from this chess position? http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=maeko-makov333-2009-359-344
07:23:04 <pikhq> zzo38: Probably gets worse when you realise that chess has a freaking *family tree* going on.
07:23:16 <pikhq> And that each one has its own name.
07:25:40 <zzo38> The normal chess game is called FIDE chess, Orthochess, Orthodox chess, International chess, Western chess, and the "Mad Queen" variant.
07:26:41 <pikhq> And that's just in English. >:D
07:28:46 <zzo38> Yes, that's just in English.
07:32:23 <zzo38> Do you know any more that are used in English?
07:34:10 <zzo38> Yes, of course. And also "chess"
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07:40:50 <zzo38> What can you figure out from this chess position?
07:41:12 <zzo38> It is the black player's turn. What move?
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07:46:37 <zzo38> I can see five ways to get out of check. Can you find more?
07:51:06 <pikhq> Roll one of those d6's?
07:51:16 <zzo38> pikhq: Not allowed.
07:51:50 <zzo38> (You may increase one of them by one, though. But doing so would not get you out of check, anyways.)
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08:19:27 <zzo38> The black player is going to lose the queen.
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08:45:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> ineiros: Oh, look at that; hMod isn't going to be updated.
08:45:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Stock Minecraft server until Bukkit comes out which will take months.
08:46:00 <Vorpal> oh well, nothing to do about it
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09:38:00 <zzo38> I tried to knock a channel because I was not invited, but I do not believe there is anyone there.
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10:30:32 <oklopol> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65201 <<< this guy is an idiot, you have 3 dimensions in minecraft, which basically lets you do this already, and even his trivial diagrams aren't optimal
10:31:11 <oklopol> that's so stupid i don't need an argument
10:32:50 <oklopol> maybe if you could color more objects than just wool
10:32:58 <oklopol> and then redstone would be one of those
10:33:48 <oklopol> oh and also i think that's a good idea, just that the guy is an idiot :D
10:34:27 <oklopol> "only an idiot would come up with this particular good idea"
10:41:39 <oklopol> surely, that would be a very small-scale thing only useful, but it'd take 3 minutes to implement
10:41:57 <oklopol> did some heavy refactoring on that sentence
10:42:40 <oklopol> so what is your bluestone like exactly
10:43:00 <oklopol> is it just a general idea of what you can do with it or some actual spex
10:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It allows more interactions with the environment and requires constant power, basically.
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10:46:43 <oklopol> and what are those interactions
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10:48:54 <oklopol> i mean if i find bluestone ore, what can i do with it, can i make a bluestone block? can i eat it? can i feed it to a creeper to make it walk backwards?
10:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the things to do was to have a more elegant wiring system.
10:53:32 <oklopol> i thought you had moving blocks and shit
10:53:39 <oklopol> so how is the wiring system more elegant?
10:54:17 <oklopol> couldn't you just make redstone do thate
10:55:41 <oklopol> maybe i should've asked elliott
10:55:58 <oklopol> he'd've been all like AND THEN LET ME IMPROVISE SOME SEMANTICS FOR HOW BLUESTONE MOVES BLOCKS AROUND
11:00:58 <Vorpal> <oklopol> maybe if you could color more objects than just wool <-- iirc someone was working on a mod for stained glass
11:01:30 <Vorpal> wouldn't work on SMP as it currently stands due to needing to add new stuff client side for it
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11:04:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, he would also be be like "omg lets add lava and TNT to it" or such.
11:04:27 <Vorpal> (nothing wrong with that, in moderation)
11:10:10 <oklopol> when a bluestone signal is sent to lav
11:10:16 <oklopol> a huge lava monster is born
11:10:38 <oklopol> when bluestone signal is applied to tnt
11:10:45 <oklopol> a huge tnt monster is born
11:10:58 <oklopol> it's like a creeper but slightly deadlier.
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11:30:43 <drakhan> As I think, many people in here are interested in esoteric, spiritual development, occult, yes?
11:31:42 <Vorpal> drakhan, no. It is about esoteric programming languages
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15:07:52 <Gregor> "B has got it into her nut that A is in love with her. Now until recently, B was engaged to ... errr" "Shall we call him C, sir?" "Well alright, Caesar is as good a name as any."
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15:13:54 * oerjan tries to remember the names one cryptologist used that were real names but pronounced like A and B
15:14:02 <oerjan> i think Bea was one of them
15:14:33 <oerjan> the other one was something irish-like and thus impossible to guess the spelling of
15:15:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not _that_ absurd
15:16:09 <oerjan> something like aeion or the like, i think
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15:21:58 <oerjan> (wikipedia's Irish name article to the rescue)
15:22:39 <oerjan> Card Colm's column is where i saw it first
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15:35:00 <j-invariant> 07:13:54 * oerjan tries to remember the names one cryptologist used that were real names but pronounced like A and B
15:35:12 <j-invariant> Someone deviated form Alice and Bob? TREASON
15:35:14 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: oh, neat
15:35:53 <oerjan> j-invariant: it wasn't actually cryptology btw, it was mathematical card games
15:35:59 <olsner> especially like how it's all sunk into the ground to what must be the same depth as the height of those example cells
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15:47:10 <j-invariant> If you don't beleive in caetgory theory you will be eater by sabre toothed tigers
15:47:35 <elliott> category theory is like GOD, how can you BELIEVE in it!!!OI
15:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Every time you say you don't believe in category theory a fairy dies.
15:47:54 <j-invariant> http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/s0894694/agda-course/
15:47:57 <elliott> # Uncomment to get a beep at grub start
15:47:58 <elliott> #GRUB_INIT_TUNE="480 440 1"
15:48:14 <oerjan> j-invariant: so you'll be gored by big cats?
15:48:45 <oerjan> elliott: hey i wouldn't even have noticed if not for the egregious misspellings
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15:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, I could always break in if given suitable payment.
15:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, and I can use the opportunity to kidnap Conor McBride.
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15:59:47 <elliott> pikhq: Kernel modesetting isn't supported by the native nvidia drivers, right?
16:00:13 <elliott> j-invariant: great! did you try my idea of ditching the latex type?
16:00:36 <elliott> wait, did you still not make polynomials abstract objects?
16:01:03 <elliott> j-invariant: ouch... i'm not sure you want to do that
16:01:37 * oklopol didn't actually open the file
16:02:44 <j-invariant> elliott: Okay you should see my actual code first, because maybe you have imagined it is different than it is
16:05:26 <oerjan> <oklopol> programming, ever again <-- what
16:06:02 <j-invariant> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/sI2Ot.png & http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XWS1MuCj
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16:08:00 <oklopol> "<j-invariant> do what" "<oklopol> programming, ever again"
16:08:47 <oklopol> i figured if elliott isn't direct about it, it must be pretty devastating
16:09:15 <oklopol> if elliott was a doctor and a guy had cancer he'd go to the guy and say "hey mister X, you have cancer"
16:09:43 <oklopol> and then the guy'd be like "oh my god, is it terminal" and elliott would be all like "yes."
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16:10:43 * oerjan starts getting nervous
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16:11:40 <oklopol> and the me who'd be his secretary would go all like isn't terminal cancer one despair-filled can, sir
16:11:49 <oklopol> and elliott would go like "lol, classic oklo"
16:12:09 <oklopol> and then the guy would leave because he thought elliott was an occultist doctor
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16:12:52 <oklopol> but he's actually just a completely insane doctor that specializes in curing methods that aren't at all practical, just weird.
16:13:08 <oklopol> and everyone would be mining the walls of the hospital all day
16:13:20 <oklopol> i think i'm having a dream
16:13:30 <oklopol> i need to go steal some yoghurt ->
16:13:39 <olsner> ah, extcore! I think I could build jonguilexiphonaugh on that (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extcore)
16:13:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: beware of creepers in the corridors!
16:14:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You pay taxes in the form of wheat and then there's just a dispenser that throws bread at you.
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16:14:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: too much yoga!
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16:21:15 <elliott> ubuntu is working stupidly well
16:21:44 <elliott> 08:09:15 <oklopol> if elliott was a doctor and a guy had cancer he'd go to the guy and say "hey mister X, you have cancer"
16:21:44 <elliott> 08:09:43 <oklopol> and then the guy'd be like "oh my god, is it terminal" and elliott would be all like "yes."
16:21:52 <oerjan> well, it's certainly good to hear that ubuntu is so good at working stupidly!
16:22:07 <elliott> j-invariant: i see that code but i still think you should do it my way :)
16:22:22 <elliott> because i'm awesome, you see
16:23:03 <oerjan> elliott: but then j-invariant might get an awesomeness overdose! have you thought of THAT?
16:23:22 <elliott> j-invariant: what I would do is: (define (render x) (texvc-render (to-latex x)))
16:23:26 <elliott> j-invariant: then, using your generic thing
16:23:34 <elliott> (define-generic-procedure (to-latex x) define-latex)
16:23:39 <elliott> j-invariant: and they return strings
16:23:53 <elliott> j-invariant: then you can just do (to-latex 3) to get "3" and (render 3) to get $3$
16:24:10 <elliott> j-invariant: oh and btw i'm sure Racket already has a library for multiple-dispatch style stuff like you are doing with define-generic procedure
16:24:19 <elliott> and a proper type system too rather than using predicates like that
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16:25:53 <elliott> 08:13:39 <olsner> ah, extcore! I think I could build jonguilexiphonaugh on that (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extcore)
16:26:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know, Minecraft is sorta like Eversion Lite.
16:27:16 <olsner> elliott: the major obstacle for making progress on that is that I need a frontend for the source language, and I think haskell should be fine as that source language
16:28:08 <elliott> "Oh, it's like *LEGO*. For kids." "Sheesh, this grass is obnoxiously bright. And I'm this stupid block-guy?" "And I make a little cute house. How wonderful and mature." "Hey, this cave looks interesting." "Bit dark in here, oh well." [hurrrrrrrrng] "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT" [slrrrrrrp] "AH OH GOD WHAT ARE YOU I'M DYING OH FUCK" [You died!]
16:28:13 <olsner> otoh, I'll need to check that I can actually use GHC Core directly :)
16:28:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I said SORTA
16:28:38 <elliott> olsner: what is it, again?
16:28:47 <elliott> the kim jong-ilasjoifjofdgjkhklfjgh
16:28:57 <olsner> elliott: not much more than a name :)
16:30:48 <olsner> elliott: jonguilexiphonaugh, I don't see why you have such problems spelling it :P
16:31:07 <elliott> olsner: so you are totally going to use SCAPEGOAT to manage the jonguilexiphonaugh repository???????
16:31:17 <olsner> I might if you tell me what the heck that is
16:31:37 <olsner> does it have an implementation yet?
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16:41:21 <elliott> olsner: not _yet_, but i am actually working on it
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: what I would do is: (define (render x) (texvc-render (to-latex x)))
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: then, using your generic thing
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> (define-generic-procedure (to-latex x) define-latex)
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: and they return strings
16:41:30 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: then you can just do (to-latex 3) to get "3" and (render 3) to get $3$
16:41:33 <elliott> <elliott> j-invariant: oh and btw i'm sure Racket already has a library for multiple-dispatch style stuff like you are doing with define-generic procedure
16:41:36 <elliott> <elliott> and a proper type system too rather than using predicates like that
16:42:03 <elliott> i'm going to assume Vorpal has said "down?"
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16:43:06 <j-invariant> elliott: did you see my image and source code paste
16:43:14 <elliott> and replied with that suggestion :>
16:51:05 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNzA1Nw
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16:51:52 <elliott> (That screenshot really makes me wish for biome-compliant grass in Painterly that worked on the side (Notch's bug).)
16:52:01 <elliott> Blends in really well with the scenery.
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16:54:54 <elliott> j-invariant: what key to what other key
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16:57:13 <j-invariant> elliott: "turn off internet" key to do nothing
16:57:45 <elliott> j-invariant: Run "xev" from terminal and focus the window it pops up, wait a second, press the key, and look (without moving mouse or anything) at the last event in the terminla
16:58:06 <elliott> Specifically the "keycode" part of a KeyPress/KeyRelease event pair.
16:58:07 <j-invariant> elliott: I tried that :( then xmodmapping it to NoSymbol
16:58:28 <j-invariant> well there was no error messages at all, but it doesn't do anything
16:58:51 <elliott> j-invariant: what file did you put it in?
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17:00:07 <elliott> j-invariant: right... just _have_ to check, you didn't reboot after right? :-P
17:00:26 <j-invariant> Itried putting the command into .xinitrc and rebotting though
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17:00:53 <elliott> so you did "keycode 358934593475345 = NoSymbol"?
17:01:16 <elliott> j-invariant: probably what happens is that it turns it off in hardware, and then sends the key
17:01:20 <elliott> so there's nothing you can do
17:01:32 <elliott> probably the best idea, yeah
17:02:35 <elliott> j-invariant: erm when you boot your pc up hammer delete and f2
17:02:38 <elliott> those are the most common keys
17:02:46 <elliott> it usually says on the screen somewhere what key will do it
17:02:53 <elliott> but try del and f2 first, just hammer them constantly :P
17:03:03 <j-invariant> "If the OS can't see anything when you press the brightness keys, it could be because they're handled directly by the BIOS. The battle is not completely lost — it is in principle possible to hack the BIOS — but the difficulty level is considerably raised."
17:03:40 <elliott> j-invariant: just try booting into the bios, sometimes they have options to disable the keys
17:03:44 <elliott> it's not hard to use the bios :-P
17:04:24 <elliott> j-invariant: <elliott> j-invariant: erm when you boot your pc up hammer delete and f2
17:04:24 <elliott> <elliott> those are the most common keys
17:04:24 <elliott> <elliott> it usually says on the screen somewhere what key will do it
17:04:24 <elliott> <elliott> but try del and f2 first, just hammer them constantly :P
17:04:39 <elliott> and then it's just an easy menu-driven interface :P
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17:09:09 <j-invariant> kept pressing "turn off internet" by accident
17:36:10 <elliott> Vorpal: "I would like detailed birch bark for my birch trees." or "I would like detailed dark birch bark for my birch trees.", latter is best, see the customiser's previews
17:36:19 <elliott> the former is just too high contrast, *really* ugly
17:36:34 <elliott> it's brighter in-game than it looks there, btw, for both of them
17:36:36 <Vorpal> elliott, the former I think. well, I'll see how it looks when I find a birch
17:36:44 <Vorpal> are they biome specific?
17:37:04 <elliott> or just going to ungenerated terrain :D
17:37:55 <j-invariant> elliott: how do I find the most recent versions of e.g. optimine?
17:37:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> or just going to ungenerated terrain :D <--- that would be far and take ages
17:38:06 <elliott> j-invariant: um you get them from the forum
17:38:11 <elliott> e.g. http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=132717
17:38:24 <j-invariant> yeah how do you know that's the most recent one?
17:38:25 <elliott> j-invariant: I can link you to all the mods I mentioned if you want, they can be hard to google
17:38:32 <elliott> j-invariant: um because it's started by the mod author
17:38:34 <elliott> who keeps the thread updated
17:38:50 <j-invariant> ,elliott I just didnt'w atn to install a bunch of weird versions like an idiot :P
17:39:14 <elliott> j-invariant: with mip mapping, the link in the first post is actuallywrong
17:39:20 <elliott> j-invariant: I can link you to the correct one, but remember the order :P
17:39:37 <oklopol> *mipmapping, please be more careful about typos
17:39:40 <elliott> optimine -> mcregion -> mipmapping -> better light+grass -> texture pack
17:39:49 <elliott> oklopol: it's actually MIP mapping
17:39:57 <elliott> so mip mapping is correct if you eschew lowercase
17:40:37 <oklopol> i just needed to point out j-invariant's awesomely typo filled message
17:40:55 <oklopol> which admittedly just had two centers of typoty
17:41:11 <elliott> j-invariant: when you get to mipmapping let me know and i'll link you to the right version for the new beta
17:41:25 <elliott> j-invariant: do you use painterly already?
17:41:49 <oklopol> so is mipmapping from the latin word MIP
17:42:05 <elliott> oklopol: multium in parvo or something
17:42:07 <oklopol> i didn't, but i asked something related
17:42:27 <j-invariant> elliott: how do I check if optimine is working :|
17:42:31 <elliott> j-invariant: you don't, it is
17:42:37 <elliott> if you did the steps, and it starts, then it's working :)
17:42:46 <elliott> if you forgot to delete META-INF it wouldn't even start
17:42:51 <j-invariant> I have no idea whether this is any different from the normal one
17:43:11 <j-invariant> also elliott, don't you have to reinstall these mods every time there is an update
17:43:11 <elliott> j-invariant: painterly has rather bad defaults and HUNDREDS of customisation options, so you'll want to go through http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php sometime soon
17:43:19 <elliott> and yes, but it really doesn't take that long
17:43:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, it's updated
17:43:28 <elliott> j-invariant: I can apply all these mods in like... 3 minutes
17:43:32 <elliott> j-invariant: besides, you won't have to do it every update
17:43:35 <elliott> since they won't be updated themselves yet
17:43:41 <elliott> so it's really every update plus a few days
17:43:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh. Indeed.
17:43:58 <j-invariant> elliott: man I dunno if I like this it sounds like a problematic thing
17:44:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But a322 is back up!
17:44:07 <j-invariant> having to convert saves back and forth if an update comes out
17:44:19 <elliott> j-invariant: You don't have to install it, but it's only one command to convert them.
17:44:23 <elliott> And it speeds up single-player immensely.
17:44:36 <j-invariant> it just sounds like somethign that might go wrong
17:44:56 <elliott> j-invariant: Scaevolus is a very well-respected modder
17:45:02 <elliott> j-invariant: in fact part of optimine was included in the latest update
17:45:10 <elliott> I'd trust it, but it's up to you :P
17:45:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Notch and the Mojangs: http://i.imgur.com/CVAYf.jpg (via reddit)
17:45:55 <elliott> j-invariant: you can skip mcregion, all the other mods will still work fine
17:46:22 <elliott> j-invariant: i'll link you to the right mipmapping download
17:46:34 <elliott> j-invariant: http://up.dafk.net/files/9de39/minecraftmipmap4dev.zip
17:46:35 <j-invariant> elliott: how do I know if mcregion has installed properly :/
17:46:46 <elliott> it's impossible to install it wrongly
17:46:49 <elliott> if you copied the files over
17:47:10 <elliott> j-invariant: you don't have to delete META-INF in future btw, since you already did
17:47:28 <elliott> j-invariant: note that Better Light/Grass are applied differently to most other mods
17:47:43 <j-invariant> it does feel faster but I don't know if it REALLY is
17:47:51 <elliott> j-invariant: it's not slower, so who cares :P
17:48:16 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.multiupload.com/ZJWVAP6EUB this is better light/grass -- unpack the zip into ~/.minecraft, you don't need to touch the jar
17:48:25 <elliott> j-invariant: then do "java -jar MrMPatcher.jar" inside .minecraft
17:48:42 <elliott> j-invariant: tick Better Light, Better Grass, and SMChat if you want (simplemap doesn't work without tweaking in the latest version), and click patch
17:48:56 <elliott> j-invariant: only do that after mipmapping though
17:49:09 <elliott> otherwise mipmapping will overwrite better light & better grass
17:49:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No, but now that there's a vanilla 1.2_01 up, I think I'll update it.
17:50:07 <fizzie> As soon as this render finishes.
17:50:18 <elliott> fizzie: I'll factor out portamability stuff into separate files first.
17:50:28 <elliott> I'll test OS X compilation sometime too.
17:50:48 <elliott> fizzie: SO CAN I MOVE THE MCMAP REPOSITORY TO GOATPEN, THE ONLY SCAPEGOAT HOST
17:51:01 <fizzie> I don't think it'll really overlap.
17:51:07 <fizzie> You can host your ML rewrite there. :p
17:52:31 <j-invariant> elliott: I installed MrMMods but it doesn't show in mods
17:52:41 <elliott> there is no official mod support yet
17:52:47 <elliott> j-invariant: did you run the patcher and everything?
17:53:04 <elliott> j-invariant: just load a world
17:53:08 <elliott> j-invariant: and look at the lighting of blocks
17:53:11 <elliott> j-invariant: and also, look at grass on a hill
17:53:14 <elliott> you'll see it goes down all the way
17:53:27 <elliott> j-invariant: btw you have to use better grass for now, better light on its own doesn't work properly
17:53:34 <elliott> j-invariant: did you get mipmapping installed?
17:53:45 <j-invariant> just take some wool, drown yourself go and pick it up again and the sheep will have its wool back
17:53:59 <j-invariant> elliott: I have no idea, I did "install it" but there is no confirmation that it worked
17:54:11 <elliott> j-invariant: go to the top of a mountain and look at a mountain further away
17:54:17 <elliott> if it looks smooth, then mipmapping is working
17:54:30 <elliott> also if you stand on some land and look at where it meets the first block on top
17:54:34 <elliott> if that's smoothed, then it's working
17:54:43 <elliott> and it just becomes blue the further away it is
17:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hah, a squid on land
17:55:22 <elliott> SILLY SQUID. YOU'RE NOT MEANT TO BE THERE.
17:55:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it is next to the water stream near subrary bridge
17:55:46 <elliott> Vorpal: It'll probably be gone by the time I get there.
17:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm standing there atm. Just get on now and walk there?
17:56:11 <Vorpal> or wait, now it went away
17:56:18 <elliott> j-invariant: you use that to apply the texture pac
17:56:26 <elliott> j-invariant: go through http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php and make your selections
17:56:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well it was moving weirdly, that a screenshot can't capture
17:56:41 <Vorpal> like how pigs move when on fire
17:56:53 <elliott> j-invariant: mcpatcher's checkboxes are confusingly named, but basically you want to have them all ticked apart from Custom Water and Animated Water (trust me, even if this makes no sense, this gives you painterly water and keeps the rest working)
17:57:00 <elliott> j-invariant: but you need to feed it a texture pack
17:57:00 <Vorpal> bit instead of up/down, it did it horizontally
17:57:02 <elliott> thus http://painterlypack.net/customizer.php
17:57:25 <elliott> j-invariant: http://github.com/downloads/pclewis/mcpatcher/mcpatcher-1.1.11.jar put this wherever, but yeah, you need to customise painterly first
17:57:31 <elliott> j-invariant: I can give you the painterly pack I use
17:57:35 <elliott> which I used to take that screenshot you saw
17:57:39 <elliott> if you don't wanna bother customising everything
17:59:02 <elliott> j-invariant: just ping me if you want me to upload it
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18:01:40 <fizzie> Heh, he's added a yet another complicated "stream of variable-sized items" packet field format that needs to be completely decoded in order to be skipped over. GRAA, why can't he just add a length field in the protocol.
18:02:56 <elliott> j-invariant: did you use the mipmapping link i gave you? the one in the post is wrong
18:03:01 <elliott> i can't tell from the screeny but i'm not sure you have mipmapping
18:03:18 <elliott> fizzie: why do you undef main on win32?
18:03:38 <j-invariant> elliott: I mean the grass http://i.imgur.com/gFNHg.png
18:03:55 <elliott> j-invariant: that's Better Grass :)
18:04:02 <elliott> ah, you do have mipmapping
18:04:07 <elliott> but why do you use such a tiny window to play in?!
18:04:22 <elliott> j-invariant: btw better grass looks nicer with painterly
18:04:30 <elliott> since with painterly, normal grass goes down 2/3rds of the way
18:04:57 <fizzie> elliott: Because otherwise SDL.h redefines it to SDL_main, but that causes mingw to go all "there is no main() method in the application, I'll use WinMain as the entry point" even if I statically link against libSDLmain.
18:05:03 <elliott> j-invariant: my configuration is the BESTEST!!!
18:05:14 <elliott> fizzie: Ah, I'll put it in platform.h then, as ugly as that is.
18:05:34 <j-invariant> I would like a crude creeper large pumpkin.
18:06:16 <elliott> j-invariant: that's what i have :D
18:06:29 <elliott> j-invariant: btw you probably do not want biome compliant grass
18:06:34 <elliott> (biome-compliant leaves are fine)
18:06:40 <elliott> because it doesn't work for side-grass, because Notch sucks
18:06:55 <Gregor> Wow, Jeeves and Wooster went downright crazy in the last season.
18:07:30 <elliott> j-invariant: btw I'd do "cp ~/.minecraft/bin/{minecraft.jar,minecraft.good.jar}" now
18:07:36 <elliott> just in case you mess up mcpatcher, happens to the best of us :P
18:07:49 <j-invariant> elliott: oh for goodness sake this customizer is MASSIVE
18:07:57 <elliott> j-invariant: yes it is, want my precustomised pack? :P
18:08:05 <elliott> some of us take our painterly customisation err...quite seriously
18:08:27 <j-invariant> I have minecraft.jar, minercaft (copy).jar and minecraft.mrm2011-1-16-0
18:08:39 <elliott> make minecraft.patched.up.the.wazoo.jar
18:08:44 <j-invariant> (copy) is my backup, I think mrm is Mr... backup
18:08:56 <elliott> you want a backup with all the patches though
18:09:01 <elliott> fizzie: If I turn -DWIN32 into -DPLATFORM=win32, is that okay?
18:09:46 <fizzie> There is no -DWIN32 at the moment.
18:09:50 <fizzie> It's mingw-defined automagically.
18:10:03 <fizzie> But I can do -DPLATFORM=win32 if you want.
18:10:51 <fizzie> Well, why nots, assuming it ends up in all the places that test for PLATFORM.
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18:12:53 <elliott> platform.h:9: error: pasting "PLATFORM" and "." does not give a valid preprocessing token
18:12:56 <elliott> Gah, how are you meant to do that, again?
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18:13:22 <elliott> Or maybe I should just use a conditional, wacky.
18:13:24 <fizzie> Sometimes you need a separate macro, if you want it to expand PLATFORM.
18:13:35 <elliott> #define PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME_(x) x##.h
18:13:35 <elliott> #define PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME_(PLATFORM)
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18:13:35 <elliott> #define QUOTE(x) QUOTE_(x)
18:13:35 <elliott> #define PLATFORM_HEADER QUOTE(PLATFORM_HEADER_NAME)
18:13:42 <elliott> fizzie: I actually just want that first macro there to work without erroring :-P
18:13:45 <elliott> ORRRR I could just do it manually.
18:14:33 <elliott> fizzie: Or, wait, I'll just pass -iwin32.h to the compiler.
18:14:35 <elliott> That's the "sanest" thing.
18:15:56 <fizzie> I don't see what's so unsane about just a single #if .. #include "win32.h" #elif .. #include "posix.h" #else #error "your platform is bad" #endif chain somewhere. (As opposed to trying to autodefine the header name like that.
18:16:03 <elliott> fizzie: Mind if I ditch useful.make? It's bugging me.
18:16:05 <Gregor> elliott: Jeeves and Wooster managed to go three and half seasons with no transvestites, but being British and all just couldn't make it much further.
18:16:12 <elliott> (Yes, yes, so HYPOCRITICAL.)
18:16:28 <fizzie> You added it, of course you can get rid of it too if you like.
18:16:32 <elliott> Sweet, I'm gonna delete all the files I added. For anarchy!
18:17:03 <j-invariant> The core of my world is delicious candycane. ◊
18:17:04 <j-invariant> I want to live on the back of a cosmic space turtle.
18:17:19 <elliott> j-invariant: I use boring ol' bedrock, but I'd go for space-turtle.
18:17:26 <elliott> The candycane is rather glaring when you're in a dark mine at bedrock.
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18:18:21 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/c179 -- *so* pretty. (The new packet field format is: read records until id byte == 127; record size depends on three top bits of ID byte, with 0 → 1 byte, 1 → 2 bytes, 2/3 → 4 bytes, 4 → length-prefixed UTF-8 string, 5 → 5 bytes.)
18:18:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, working on mcmap update?
18:18:28 <fizzie> (Yet another place where it can get broken.)
18:18:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, the whole protocol changed fundamentally?
18:19:01 <fizzie> No, he just added yet another field type that doesn't have a fixed length.
18:19:16 <fizzie> It's used for something mob-related.
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18:25:40 <elliott> fizzie: What would be your most approved-of renaming of main? (The platforms will handle main() itself.)
18:26:19 <j-invariant> elliott: what's up with all the non-square moons and suns? Weird
18:26:28 <elliott> j-invariant: I use them :P
18:26:34 <elliott> (Plain circular moon, circular sun)
18:27:11 <fizzie> Anything, really; but preferrably something that includes the substring "main". (And no, something incorporating the verb "remain" doesn't quite count.)
18:28:12 <elliott> fizzie: What's this setlocale(LC_ALL, "") nonsense?
18:28:17 <elliott> Are we a locale-friendly app now?
18:28:17 <fizzie> java.io.IOException: Server returned HTTP response code: 504 for URL: http://www.minecraft.net/game/joinserver.jsp?[...] -- is there some sort of a problem, or is that just me?
18:28:36 <elliott> j-invariant: Download mcpatcher, tick all except Custom Water and Animated Water, specify pack location
18:28:43 <fizzie> elliott: It manages to localize the glib help messages (partially) and something else. I don't remember what I thought when adding it.
18:28:49 <elliott> j-invariant: (Assuming you ticked a water you like in the customiser.)
18:31:17 <elliott> j-invariant: OK, leave tile size
18:31:27 <elliott> make sure all others are ticked
18:31:35 <elliott> (Animated water actually *disables* Painterly's animated water.)
18:31:37 <elliott> (So you want it UNTICKED.)
18:31:48 <elliott> click Patch, close the patcher, start minecraft normally
18:32:05 <j-invariant> Replacing kf.class: java.io.FileNotFoundException: newcode/kf.class
18:32:15 <elliott> j-invariant: do the paths look right?
18:33:22 <elliott> fizzie: So are we going to have a fancy GTK launcher someday? :P
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18:34:16 <fizzie> I don't really think so. :p
18:34:29 <j-invariant> I got "Success ...probably" this time, with custom water off
18:35:13 <elliott> j-invariant: you forgot to enable water in painterly customiser!!
18:35:24 <elliott> Do not include MCPATCHER animation files for water.
18:35:25 <elliott> Include MCPATCHER animation files for light water.
18:35:25 <elliott> Include MCPATCHER animation files for dark water.
18:35:27 <elliott> choose one of the latter two
18:35:35 <elliott> btw hover over the pictures to get previews
18:36:54 <elliott> j-invariant: are you sure? :/
18:37:02 <elliott> j-invariant: you are on 1.2_01, right?
18:37:32 <elliott> fizzie: Should I name portable types and functions like socket() and the socket type with mcmap_ prefix or sth?
18:37:40 <elliott> fizzie: typedef int mcmap_socket; and the like.
18:37:47 <elliott> Yeah, I'll go for platform_ prefix.
18:38:48 <elliott> j-invariant: If you want to hear your hardware scream, set viewing distance to far and rendering to fancy.
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18:43:56 <elliott> fizzie: Is it okay if the win32 console still gets threaded, even though it isn't quite required?
18:44:09 <Sgeo> elliott, how does a language like Slate manage to ... exist so long while going practically nowhere, generating little interest?
18:44:23 <fizzie> Can the thread do anything there? I mean, the currently ifdef'd-out code won't compile on Windows.
18:44:43 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the idea is that there'd be a few console_* functions in platform.h, that both posix.c and win32.c would implement.
18:44:49 <elliott> And posix.c would use readline and win32.c just the usual read() stuff.
18:45:05 <elliott> fizzie: So it'd be threaded in all cases.
18:45:21 <elliott> Sgeo: "going practically nowhere" is quite insulting to all the people who have been working on it for years. Besides, there was a dip in activity for years, this is a "revival".
18:45:23 <fizzie> One more thread doesn't really matter.
18:45:48 <Sgeo> A revival that seems to consist of one person, as far as I can tell
18:46:13 <elliott> Io is basically a one-man project too.
18:46:22 <fizzie> Anyway, I'll push this protocol-update change; it only changes protocol.h (and there only the packet_id and field_type enums) and protocol.c, it should auto-merge without any problems.
18:46:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't believe he's done.
18:46:51 <fizzie> I am; I just testeded it a moment ago.
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18:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, right, he said in game he was about to push, then he left the game
18:47:22 <elliott> fizzie: Actually, come to think of it, I can just only have the thread in posix.c.
18:47:42 <fizzie> 2 files changed, 61 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)
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18:49:36 <elliott> fizzie: Is console_readline ever false on POSIX?
18:51:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there? Planning on that joint expedition still?
18:51:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, now seems like a perfect time to do it
18:51:52 <fizzie> elliott: It can be if there is both atexit + regular-quit cleanup.
18:51:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Filthy traitor!
18:51:56 <Vorpal> wait, what colour is it in mcmap?
18:52:07 <fizzie> Oh, mcmap doesn't have that block colored yet.
18:52:15 <Vorpal> ah well I'll add it then I guess.
18:52:33 <fizzie> You can manually add it for now; I'll fix that (and note blocks and whatnot) a bit later.
18:53:10 <fizzie> Non-white cloth blocks will also be black at the moment.
18:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, any plans to make mcmap highlight specific blocks?
18:53:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, aren't they all the same id, but different durability?
18:53:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, with a //command.
18:54:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, right, they might be. The classic cloth block had different IDs.
18:54:19 <elliott> Do pressure plates provide charge downwards?
18:55:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, about how long do you estimate? I have an early morning tomorrow
18:56:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about NE approx?
18:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Shouldn't be that long; we just need to branch mine at a specific depth/
18:56:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I seem to recall you "not being interested" in lapis?
18:56:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well tell me if there is water to fall in there :P
18:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm not HUGELY interested. But some will be fun :P
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19:02:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
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19:08:07 <elliott> sed 's,\($*\)\.o[ :]*,\1.o $@ : ,g' > $@
19:08:10 <elliott> fizzie: What does that line noise do?
19:09:06 <fizzie> It adds the depfile in the list of targets, so that it also depends on the dependencies.
19:09:12 <Vorpal> fuck minecraft.net being downish
19:09:14 <fizzie> There's that GCC-specific option for it.
19:09:36 <fizzie> It corresponds to "-MT $@"
19:09:39 <ais523> hmm, new entry for "list of unreasonably difficult tasks for a PhD student": discovering exactly what page of a conference proceedings you don't have your paper starts on
19:09:46 <fizzie> Or -MT $(objdir)/$*.d in useful.make terms.
19:09:48 <ais523> in fact, just discovering the name of the conference proceedings can be quite hard
19:09:53 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, I already use -MT $(@:.d=.o) right now.
19:10:09 <elliott> I'll leave your ugley script in.
19:10:24 <fizzie> It's picked from the GNU make manual.
19:10:44 <fizzie> But you could change it to "-MT $(@:.d=.o) -MT $@" if you're using the MT flag in any case.
19:11:03 <fizzie> Are you putting the Windows build in the same Makefile as the "sensible" build?
19:14:13 <elliott> fizzie: I'm making Makefile.common, Makefile.win32, Makefile.posix.
19:14:27 <elliott> fizzie: And then probably making Makefile just include Makefile.posix, unless there's a snazzy detect-win32 thing in make.
19:14:32 <elliott> What does mingw's uname output?
19:14:42 <fizzie> I don't know, I just cross-build it.
19:18:03 <Sgeo> elliott, I wish Slate had up-to-date thorough documentation
19:18:27 <Sgeo> Which, at least, is better than Atomo's ... complete-looking, but secretly lacking, documentation
19:19:56 <elliott> fizzie: So win32 actually has no input facilities, right?
19:20:13 <fizzie> There are the console functions.
19:20:23 <fizzie> But currently it doesn't have any, if that's what you meant.
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19:31:30 <ais523> also, it seems that LyX's "integrated version control" is in fact RCS
19:31:36 <ais523> I'm not sure how to react, or how Vorpal will react
19:36:56 <fizzie> ais523: It only uses RCS by default if it doesn't smell some other version control repository in the directory you've saved the file in.
19:37:08 <fizzie> ais523: It does CVS and Subversion if it sees files related to those.
19:37:55 <fizzie> I don't think it does any other systems yet, though.
19:38:30 <j-invariant> elliott: chopping down trees form the comfort of my boat: If only I could get a workbench on it!
19:39:15 <fizzie> Gah, that Minecraft protocol is ad-hoc. The format for packet 0x35 ("place a block") starts as "int, byte, int" (X, Y, Z) coordinates. For packet 0x36 ("play a note block") the first three fields are "int, short, int" (also X, Y, Z). And there are quite many packets that start with "int, int, int" (X, Y, Z).
19:51:01 <Sgeo> Going to start watching DS9 again
19:58:41 <j-invariant> "we're looking to compile at a rate very close to 100,000 lines of source code per second"
19:58:53 <j-invariant> seriously. What the hell is going on in "industry"?
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20:00:15 <zzo38> Do you like anarchy golf?
20:00:35 <j-invariant> no, it makes me feel stupid. I cna't do any of them
20:01:40 <zzo38> j-invariant: I can give a lot of hints. I know a lot of tricks that can be used. Each programming language usable has its own challenge.
20:03:41 <zzo38> Such as, Objective-C is a strict superset of C, so any solution in C should also be acceptable as a Objective-C code.
20:04:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott has caused massive damage to the summit of Mt. Hoover.
20:04:20 <elliott> And in an agreement of war, no less.
20:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you either recreate the entire terrain from scratch or you help me get ineiros to give me a revert.
20:05:17 <Sgeo> What happened?
20:05:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Why, exactly, were you placing that much TNT near the summit?
20:05:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We _agreed to war_.
20:05:43 <elliott> War, as in, war where people die.
20:05:47 <Sgeo> Also, does more TNT cause a bigger explosion?
20:05:56 <Sgeo> Minecraft: Serious Business
20:06:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A chunk revert takes two seconds, and I'm not acting like this is a joke, and for once Sgeo is right.
20:06:15 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:06:17 <elliott> I consulted you on the matter of war for a reason and you agreed.
20:07:15 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, the portability work is almost done.
20:07:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, want them?
20:07:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, will take a minute or so to sprunge
20:08:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, dumped in a file.
20:08:18 <elliott> fizzie: does -O3 break windows?
20:08:39 <fizzie> Haven't tried, though.
20:08:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have saved them to a file
20:11:15 <Vorpal> oh no ping reply from PH. I guess that is it
20:11:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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20:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> My parents have confiscated my laptop because I'm "addicted" and I'm doing it in favour of homework I don't have.]
20:16:59 <elliott> Heh: # renamed: console.c -> posix.c
20:17:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Permanently? :p
20:17:48 <elliott> Hate to ask the obvious question but what are you IRCing from :P
20:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I have to demonstrate that I'm not addicted by doing something else, or something like that.
20:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't be long until they find me on this as well and force me off it.
20:18:41 <elliott> fizzie: Pushed the portability stuff, probably broke Windows builds.
20:18:46 <elliott> Probably broke POSIX builds come to think of it, but whatever.
20:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> They are incapable of grasping that addiction is not the same as being annoyed when you are forced off it in the middle of doing something.
20:19:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As a revolutionary, while opposed to you, I am also naturally opposed to all forms of authority, and so death to parents and etc.! But if you will excuse me, I must go and blow shit up.
20:19:35 -!- Behold has joined.
20:19:40 <elliott> (I, on the other hand, am quite clearly addictd ^)
20:21:28 <fizzie> That's an interesting "clean" sequence:
20:21:30 <fizzie> rm -f build/mcmap build/posix.o build/cmd.o build/console.o build/main.o build/map.o build/nbt.o build/protocol.o build/world.o build/posix.d build/cmd.d build/console.d build/main.d build/map.d build/nbt.d build/protocol.d build/world.d
20:21:37 <nooga> where is my intel manual for compiler writers
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20:22:18 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, it generates all the dependencies.
20:22:25 <elliott> fizzie: useful.make hardcoded around this, but it was rather dumb.
20:22:30 <elliott> fizzie: For instance, "make clean all" broke.
20:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=40327
20:23:11 <elliott> fizzie: Of course, if you're cleaning without building in the first place, you're silly anyway. (You'll want to rm -rf _build and _debug, probably.)
20:23:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "The name is quite stupid", like they say. :p
20:23:58 <elliott> fizzie: Would you believe it, it actually works
20:24:28 <fizzie> $ make -f Makefile.win32
20:24:28 <fizzie> In file included from platform.h:5,
20:24:28 <fizzie> posix.h:6:19: error: netdb.h: No such file or directory
20:24:36 <fizzie> Preprocessor == compares values, not strings.
20:24:49 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, in-deed. I thought that was the case but forgot.
20:24:52 <fizzie> Both "posix" and "win32" have the value 0 if you don't define them to something.
20:26:37 <elliott> fizzie: Come to think of it, I'll just make it -DPLATFORM_POSIX vs. -DPLATFORM_WIN32.
20:27:03 <fizzie> Or you could use the guaranteed-to-be-defined-on-all-win32-builds WIN32. :p
20:27:16 <elliott> But that's less generic! What if you port it to Classic Mac OS?
20:27:27 <fizzie> Then you don't test against it.
20:27:41 <elliott> Wouldn't you rather have to?
20:27:49 <elliott> But that's a SPECIAL CASE.
20:29:46 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.spieleplanet.eu/get/mcmap-gui.png <-- is *your* launcher this ugly?
20:30:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is this launcher of yours?
20:30:31 <fizzie> Approximately equally ugly, though.
20:30:34 <elliott> Vorpal: It launches nuclear warheads.
20:30:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I added a small launcher dialog in the Win32 build that's shown if you don't include any command-line arguments.
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20:32:58 <fizzie> Pushed a three-line patch to fix the Windows builds.
20:33:00 <fizzie> 2 files changed, 3 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)
20:33:15 <fizzie> Well, maybe it could be considered a four-line patch in some sense.
20:34:27 <fizzie> The link step needs $(objs) $(LDFLAGS) as opposed to $(LDFLAGS) $(objs), because otherwise it won't pick up the referred-to symbols from the DLL link stub libraries. (It only collects symbols that are used.)
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20:37:16 <olsner> elliott: I like the checkbox for "render the hell dimension"
20:41:23 <fizzie> Also pushed a Perl script that takes a protocol.txt and writes the ugly parts of packet-format structures from that. Got tired of updating three different places whenever the protocol changes.
20:41:40 <fizzie> (Didn't add that as a build step though, since conceivably someone might want to build on Windows without Perl.
20:45:31 <elliott> fizzie: But doesn't that -Wl thing need to come before iojdofgjsodigjhfgsihjfkglhjlfkdh?
20:45:38 <elliott> Because you had it like that in the Makefile.
20:45:52 <fizzie> Probably not. I don't really know. At least it builds. :p
20:46:16 <j-invariant> notch talks on http://www.livestream.com/coesquest
20:46:31 <elliott> j-invariant: notch is the worst
20:47:21 * Sgeo wonders if Phantom_Hoover should destroy the remaining stocks of TNT
20:50:17 <elliott> j-invariant: PRAISE THE GLORIOUS NOTCH
20:51:49 <elliott> Vorpal: fizzie: "4815162342 lines of code!" That would explain a lot..
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20:53:32 <elliott> fizzie: Congratulations on your DSL (the .txt)
20:54:02 <elliott> fizzie: You should probably add a rule to update protocol-data.{c,h}.
20:54:41 <fizzie> Yes, probably; I didn't want to make the build actually-depend on Perl, but OTOH it doesn't if those files do exist in the repo.
20:54:52 <Sgeo> "It is possible to interact with the environment while riding a cart, such as shooting a bow at enemies or laying down track in front of the minecart while it is moving."
20:55:04 <Sgeo> That sounds like it could be... useful for long journeys
20:55:05 <elliott> ^cat coppro: i like how much the minecraft talk bothers you
20:55:05 <fungot> coppro: i like how much the minecraft talk bothers you
20:55:12 <elliott> (I know fungot's inner desires.)
20:55:12 <fungot> elliott: i have gotten a test binary file.
20:55:32 <coppro> elliott are you now speaking to me through fungot?
20:55:32 <fungot> coppro: i... just another instance of unix is no longer useable as a snarcstation-2. but these days? so what happened, and hardware manufacturers said the name of the
20:55:42 <Sgeo> "When riding a falling minecart, landing will deal no damage."
20:55:54 <elliott> ^cat Stop accusing elliott of things, I'm a real human being who' sa bot.
20:55:54 <fungot> Stop accusing elliott of things, I'm a real human being who' sa bot.
20:56:00 <Sgeo> That sounds like an easy way to get down from high heights
20:56:01 <elliott> ^cat *who's a. I even make mistakes!
20:56:01 <fungot> *who's a. I even make mistakes!
20:56:04 <Sgeo> coppro, yes, yes he is
20:56:43 <Sgeo> ^cat Of course, this means Sgeo can impersonate elliott within coppro's mind
20:56:44 <fungot> Of course, this means Sgeo can impersonate elliott within coppro's mind
20:57:01 <coppro> except I can see Sgeo issue the command
20:57:03 <elliott> ^cat dfjghdfgkjljsdfzl;dfkjgophs94gsozf\dzf
20:57:03 <fungot> dfjghdfgkjljsdfzl;dfkjgophs94gsozf\dzf
20:57:20 <elliott> fizzie: I think fungot is having a nervous breakdown.
20:57:20 <fungot> elliott: the other hand, given the poor are terribly poor and the program.
20:58:35 <elliott> Apparently, mipmapping is forcing the volume to 0 or something...
20:59:06 <elliott> "Changing volume when music and sound are both off crashes Minecraft"
20:59:41 <j-invariant> How to catch chickens: Use a fishing rod to pull them into a cactus
21:04:04 <Sgeo> Is it worth using powered minecarts?
21:04:32 <nooga> English guys: how does a name "cardernet" (for an internet service) sounds to you?
21:05:57 <nooga> i'd rather name it cardsnet or something like that
21:06:09 <nooga> because AFAIK carder is something weird
21:06:55 <elliott> paulscode.sound.SoundSystemException: The specified class does not implement interface 'ICodec' in method 'setCodec'
21:06:55 <elliott> at paulscode.sound.SoundSystemConfig.setCodec(SourceFile:584)
21:06:56 <elliott> at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.a(SourceFile:331)
21:06:58 <elliott> at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.run(SourceFile:643)
21:07:00 <elliott> at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:636)
21:07:02 <elliott> error linking with the LibraryJavaSound plug-in
21:07:13 <j-invariant> hahah the water in minecraft is not confluent
21:08:47 <j-invariant> the way it flows is dependent on the order in which its path is cleared
21:08:48 <Sgeo> Might Minecart boosters eventually be nerfed?
21:08:51 <elliott> sound is so boooorken for me :(
21:08:59 <fizzie> elliott: The current system seems to have bit of a rebuild problem: http://p.zem.fi/fkwv -- based on make -d at http://p.zem.fi/7nwt it's because you depend on the build directory, and that is always newer because any file-change inside there will update its timestamp.
21:09:10 <Sgeo> How much stuff will break?
21:09:23 <Sgeo> And will powered minecarts then become useful?
21:09:31 <elliott> fizzie: Oh for chrissakes. Change the dependency on $(objdir) to | $(objdir).
21:11:21 <Sgeo> "You can also ride "them" and they'll move nearly forever if there is no dead end. It also moves slower off track and can move through water.
21:11:33 <j-invariant> The word confluent comes from the behavior of water
21:12:49 <coppro> what a dumb way for water to work
21:14:02 <elliott> fizzie: Have you had any audio issues?
21:15:19 <elliott> fizzie: Shall I add the auto-update of the protocol-data files to the build system? It'll only trigger when the files are out of date, obviously.
21:17:24 <fizzie> I haven't played Minecraft with sound more than once or so.
21:17:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I heard the "ouch" but saw nothing that could hurt you
21:17:30 <fizzie> You can. I was going to, but forgot.
21:17:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Fell down the stairs. :p
21:18:15 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart_booster#Double_Booster
21:18:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what were you going to screenshot?
21:18:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Yeah, that _will_ be fixed. It's a crazy bug.
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21:18:56 <fizzie> Anyway, here's what I got when I tried to add "show block light levels in surface map for nice night-time look" in mcmap: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png
21:19:15 <elliott> fizzie: I WANT TO MAKE AN ALBUM JUST SO I CAN USE THAT AS THE COVER.
21:19:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:19:39 <zzo38> I have made a list of some hints for anarchy golf gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_golf.anagol-tricks
21:19:40 <Sgeo> I think boosters period are a crazy bug
21:19:49 <elliott> fizzie: SRSLY THAT IS AWESOME
21:20:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, found out anything about the corruption bug btw?
21:20:49 <fizzie> Not yet either. I should really take a look at some point.
21:20:58 <Sgeo> Item duplication glitches are useful bugs
21:21:38 <elliott> I can't stop staring at http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png
21:21:45 <j-invariant> free string every time I spend the night in my house
21:22:08 <elliott> j-invariant: add some logs on fire there, hehehe
21:22:12 <elliott> j-invariant: have you built a portal to the Nether yet?
21:22:27 <j-invariant> I just found clay and iron for the fisrst time today thoug
21:22:29 <elliott> j-invariant: you want buckets of lava and water, to build it in-place
21:22:37 <elliott> that way you don't have to mine it either
21:22:44 <j-invariant> oh yeah I do know where there is some lava
21:22:47 <elliott> j-invariant: If it has taken this long for you to find iron you are doing something very wrong :)
21:22:48 <oklopol> j-invariant: string is useless though
21:22:51 <elliott> To make a bucket you need iron
21:23:07 <elliott> j-invariant: also, wow, you really need to play at a higher resolution :P
21:23:16 <oklopol> you use 5 of it in the whole game
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21:23:44 <elliott> fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png has PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL in it, I am disgusted.
21:23:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Found ANOTHER computer?
21:24:04 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Quarry_1.png
21:24:12 * Sgeo wants to make a swimming pool that size
21:25:19 <elliott> How do you do squares in the gimp? :p
21:25:31 <Sgeo> Cobblestone factory + tree farm = plenty of smooth stone
21:25:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Cobblestone factory = useless.
21:25:52 <elliott> It is 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x faster to mine.
21:26:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, do you have any idea of the rate of production in a cobble factory?
21:26:01 <fizzie> elliott: Second attempt: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights2.png
21:26:17 <elliott> fizzie: That's the cover to the accompanying EP.
21:26:26 <elliott> fizzie: Can you save the version that generated mcmap-lights.png?
21:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Literally the only place it would be useful would be in the Nether.
21:26:34 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, can't be lower than mining, right?
21:26:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Because the cobble don't regenerate instantly.
21:26:59 <fizzie> elliott: I already messed it up. :/
21:27:10 <elliott> If the cobble magically reappeared AS SOON as you finished mining (not even a ms delay) it would be as fast.
21:27:17 <elliott> But it takes like a second.
21:27:19 <Gregor> <elliott> fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/mcmap-lights.png has PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIAL in it, I am disgusted. // worst - porn -e ver
21:27:33 <Sgeo> Mining isn't as safe
21:27:38 <elliott> Gregor: I'm trying to highlight the pornographic material now :P
21:27:57 <elliott> If you do a corridor, it's completely safe and you get iron and coal too.
21:28:29 <Sgeo> It's not as ecological
21:28:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do it chunk-wise then
21:28:39 <Sgeo> You'll run out eventually
21:28:48 <Sgeo> And have to walk a distance to find more
21:28:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I made some cool stuff such as a note based warning system when someone enters my place
21:29:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the revert
21:29:22 <elliott> Sgeo: "Run out"? Not underground.
21:29:30 <elliott> And the world is fucking infinite, there is nothing to conserve.
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21:29:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well the worldedit plugin for bukkit could do it
21:29:56 <Sgeo> Sure, the world is infinite, but if you run out in a fixed area, you have to leave that area
21:30:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wait, dump with mcmap. then figure out the file names
21:30:23 <elliott> HOW DO YOU DRAW A SQUARE WITH THE GIMP
21:30:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I assume they would be the same for mcmap and for the server
21:30:35 <elliott> Sgeo: The underground extends forever.
21:30:37 <Vorpal> relative the world dir
21:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> You'll *already* have more cobble than you need from mining.
21:31:15 <fizzie> elliott: Usually I just select a rectangle, then select->border, then fill that.
21:31:15 <Phantom_Hoover> mcmap has absolutely no idea what the server calls the chunks.
21:31:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> HOW DO YOU DRAW A SQUARE WITH THE GIMP <-- make a rectangle selection, shift or ctrl or something to ensure all sides equally long
21:31:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The file names are just base36-encoded integers of the chunk position.
21:31:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't it determnistic from the coords?
21:33:27 <elliott> fizzie: Gregor: PROOF OF EVIL PORNOGRAPHY: http://i.imgur.com/c37jR.png
21:34:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. The path for chunk at (X,Z) is "%s/%s/c.%s.%s.dat", base36(X&63), base36(Z&63), base36(X), base36(Z).
21:34:43 <elliott> If you need me to colour it according to how an EVIL PORNOGRAPHIST would, I can do that too, but I figured I'd rely on your OWN EYES.
21:35:35 <Gregor> You ... must have an extremely dirty mind to see anything in that :P
21:35:38 <fizzie> (With a base36 digit set of "0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz".)
21:36:50 <elliott> Gregor: Obviously the woman on the right is screaming in horror at what a horrible picture she is in, while wearing a necklace with a Christian cross on it, and apparently with no neck separating her face and breasts. IT'S OBVIOUS!
21:37:35 <Gregor> And ... a parrot on her shoulder?
21:37:39 <Sgeo> Is smelting with lava ever worth it?
21:38:18 <elliott> Gregor: That's clearly a tentacle.
21:39:08 <elliott> j-invariant: Here's incentive to play at a higher resolution: http://ompldr.org/vNzBuNg
21:41:14 <Sgeo> elliott, does 2 TNT next to eachother make more of an explosion than 1?
21:41:46 <Sgeo> Can that be used to explode past obsidian, or is it just size of explosion?
21:42:04 <elliott> You would need a LOT of TNT to explode obsidian.
21:42:20 <Sgeo> But it's theoretically doable?
21:42:41 <Sgeo> How much TNT would you need to explode past water?
21:42:41 <elliott> It'd probably crash the game well before you ever got past TNT.
21:42:43 <j-invariant> elliott: I think that's bigger than my maximum res :S
21:42:51 <elliott> j-invariant: just press F11 :P
21:42:58 <j-invariant> elliott: BTW, turns out my security system isn't completely watertight http://i.imgur.com/dUR5V.png
21:42:59 <Sgeo> elliott, water is literally unbreakable?
21:43:01 <elliott> might take pressing it thrice, if it doesn't get rid of your top/bottom panels
21:43:29 <elliott> j-invariant: did it come down?
21:43:35 <fizzie> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion#Block_Resistance has smaller numbers for water than obsidian, but I really don't know how those are calculated.
21:43:36 <Sgeo> According to http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Explosion#Block_Resistance, water has a lower resistance than obsidian
21:43:38 <j-invariant> haha it can't come down but I can't go up either
21:43:49 <fizzie> Sgeo: Underwater explosions are a different thing, though.
21:44:01 <Sgeo> I wasnt asking about underwater explosions
21:44:14 <Sgeo> I wanted to know how well a wall of stationary water would hold up
21:46:26 <Sgeo> What... was the point of Notch programming in the spring duplication?
21:47:45 <Gregor> elliott: Do people actually eat weetabix?
21:47:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the way water behaves
21:48:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, there's a certain maximum damage a single TNT block can deal.
21:48:33 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, with more TNT, can more damage be delt?
21:49:06 <Vorpal> isn't it additive if exploding exactly at the same time
21:49:07 <Sgeo> So elliott's wrong then. Ok
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The explosion algorithm is insane, and I think it's the reason TNT is woefully resource-heavy.
21:49:14 <Vorpal> I thought that was how TNT cannons worked
21:49:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they have been rewritten in 1.2
21:49:22 <Gregor> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Weetabix.jpg <-- this looks like something you'd be served as an indentured slave to the military.
21:50:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Optimine stops TNT lagging things.
21:50:37 <elliott> Gregor: That picture is awful.
21:50:42 <elliott> Gregor: Also what, you soak them in milk.
21:50:52 <elliott> Gregor: They... really don't look like that :P
21:51:02 <elliott> Gregor: With some sugar and soaked in milk it's actually really tasty.
21:51:16 <elliott> Gregor: It isn't hard or anything, when milk'd.
21:51:17 <Gregor> My hatred for milk makes that even worse :P
21:51:26 <elliott> Gregor: Oh... well you're just weird then.
21:51:51 <fizzie> Minepedia explains the block-destroying process reasonably well, but not the interaction of multiple TNT blocks, except by noting that other TNT blocks may ignite from the explosion; it doesn't mention at which point it resets the damage-to-blocks counters.
21:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, that article is on block interactions, isn't it?
21:52:34 <Sgeo> "The only dangers that a quarry presents are death from falling into the pit, death from hitting a magma flow, or by falling into a cavern due to recklessness and getting killed by a mob underground."
21:52:42 <Sgeo> LIES! You could also die of boredom
21:53:50 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/index.php?title=Template:Blocks&diff=40037&oldid=39916 How annoying.
21:54:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well yes, though it has an "interactions with entities" paragraph too, but that's just about how creatures and players get damage.
21:54:17 <Gregor> elliott: If you dipped it in chocolate, I could see it being food.
21:55:06 <fizzie> There is a very confusing sentence about high-resistance blocks: "The minimum block resistance required to absorb maximum blast force of TNT explosion (with at least attenuation of 2 steps) is 77.67, 63.5 of creeper explosion, 20.17 of fireball explosion. So water, stationary lava, obsidian, and bedrock are always indestructible, and furnaces and less resistant blocks can be destroyed by fireballs."
21:55:13 <fizzie> I don't really know what they mean by that.
21:55:48 <fizzie> I guess "with at least attenuation of 2 steps" means that it takes 2 steps to get out of the TNT block itself.
21:57:40 <Sgeo> I'm just thinking that bomb shelters made out of water are more economical than those made of obsidian
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21:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, an interesting result of TNT resistance is that the Cube would be extremely resistant to single-floor TNT detonations.
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22:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it would destroy the floor and ceiling of the level it was on (near the blast zone, at least).
22:02:01 <Sgeo> What's the Cube made of? Also I don't know what it is, but I guess vertically it alternates block air block air?
22:02:55 <fizzie> It has lava between the floors for lighting.
22:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's glass with lava sandwiched between things like fizzie said.
22:04:31 <Gregor> Mmmm, lava sandwiches.
22:04:39 <Sgeo> But there's no air to move around in?
22:05:09 <Sgeo> glass lava glass air air repeat?
22:05:59 <Sgeo> I'd like to see pictures
22:06:50 <Phantom_Hoover> The Cube site is going to be a deathtrap now that health is on...
22:06:52 <Sgeo> You can't just show me a screenshot?
22:07:11 <Sgeo> Wait, it doesn't exist yet?
22:07:44 <Sgeo> I assume there is easy access to a lava lake near the site?
22:07:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:08:32 <Phantom_Hoover> We used to have renewable lava, but server-side inventory broke it.
22:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Now we sit and wait for Bukkit to be released and then bug ineiros for a lava kit and a chunk revert on Mt. Hoover.
22:09:12 <Sgeo> Or just abandon the site
22:09:16 <Sgeo> Find a lava lake
22:09:29 <Sgeo> Or minecart system between current site and lava lake
22:09:31 <elliott> fizzie: mcmap is a lot shorter than I thought:
22:09:35 <elliott> Totals grouped by language (dominant language first):
22:09:36 <elliott> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 2,925
22:09:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Abandon the site that's had so much work done on it? I think not.
22:09:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Besides, one lava lake is NOT enough.
22:09:50 <elliott> Sgeo: We need 16 thousand lava blocks per floor.
22:10:05 <Sgeo> Minecart system it is
22:10:37 <Sgeo> Also, 4000x4000? Why?
22:11:07 <Sgeo> How much does a single lake hold?
22:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "Not enough" is invariably going to be the answer, though.
22:11:41 <Sgeo> Well, can you estimate how many lakes you need per floor?
22:12:32 <elliott> 126x126 (accounting for the edge) = 15,876.
22:12:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Far, far too many. Lakes are incredibly rare.
22:12:49 <elliott> But we'd have to basically go down to bedrock EVERYWHERE.
22:13:27 <Sgeo> Wait for update in which portals work in SMP?
22:14:15 <elliott> Sgeo: That's not going to happen.
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22:19:59 <Sgeo> How far away can a ditch be before it doesn't influence where water flows?
22:25:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Sgeo: That's not going to happen. <-- oh?
22:25:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo, check wiki? Page on fluids iirc
22:25:52 <elliott> Portals are going to go to another server, apparently, but definitely never the Nether.
22:26:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the point was that the other server could hold nether.
22:26:10 <Vorpal> elliott, so one admin would run two servers
22:26:22 <Vorpal> elliott, and let portals work between them
22:26:28 <elliott> Vorpal: That requires running two servers.
22:26:52 <Vorpal> elliott, reddit minecraft server could probably manage that
22:27:00 <Vorpal> doubt they would want to
22:27:07 <elliott> They already run TWO servers :P
22:27:16 <Vorpal> elliott, creative/survival?
22:27:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and what happened to that server after hmod was gone (didn't they use hmod?)
22:29:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I think some of the "big" servers are using their own hMod development builds.
22:29:13 <elliott> Also, yes, creatie/survival.
22:29:31 <elliott> Or they're just downgraded.
22:29:35 <elliott> And also have an additional beta server.
22:29:40 <elliott> What is that texture pack I wonder.
22:30:17 <elliott> It looks quite nice, like Painterly HD.
22:30:51 <Vorpal> elliott, boring: http://redditpublic.com/wiki/Rules#Creative
22:31:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Looks like the creative server is running Bukkit.
22:31:08 <elliott> Some sekrit build, presumably.
22:31:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea
22:31:20 <elliott> Vorpal: I can understand water and shit, even if it is stupid.
22:35:11 <Sgeo> Flowing lava is banned in Survival, stationary lava isn't/
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22:44:35 <Gregor> And now, classic poetry ala moron ala Gregor:
22:44:37 <Gregor> If they hav a cewre for canser,
22:44:38 <Gregor> they should be able to stop a simple,
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22:58:45 <elliott> fizzie: Should .d files go in build/ even for debug builds, since they're common to both?
23:00:24 <olsner> the dependencies will depend on the macros that are defined though, so that's not guaranteed to be safe :)
23:01:15 <olsner> well... it'll be "safe" but not necessarily correct
23:01:47 <elliott> olsner: oh, you are right, it'll have $platform.{c,h} deps
23:01:54 <elliott> so we can't really do that without forcing both in or whatever
23:02:31 <elliott> olsner: there needs to be a build system that considers make variables (including cflags) as dependencies :)
23:05:04 <elliott> olsner: actually such dependency tracking should probably go in the OS ...
23:05:13 <elliott> strace can work for a lot of things, fabricate uses that, but it's imperfect
23:05:32 <elliott> olsner: again a case of forcing things to go at a higher level of abstraction allowing greater system integration :P
23:08:29 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:26:52 -!- Gregor has set topic: MOTHERFUCKING WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MOTHERFUCKING MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | WEETABIX, FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company would like to deny the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Having sampled a wide var.
23:27:47 -!- Gregor has set topic: WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company denies the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Having sampled a wide variety of cardboard, the vast majority are not any m.
23:28:19 -!- Gregor has set topic: WEETABIX TASTE LIKE CARDBOARD | WEETABIX: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | WEETABIX WITH MERCURY IN IT: http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ | PAGES ABOUT WEETABIX: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | FUCKING WEETABIX | The Weetabix company denies the claim that Weetabix tastes like cardboard. Our fine natural additives completely eliminate cardboard flavor..
23:28:36 <elliott> "Weetabix tastes like cardboard" is possibly the first thing Americans ever said, so shut your face.
23:28:47 -!- elliott has set topic: MOTHER | FUCKING | WEETABIX | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:29:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: ELLIOTT'S MOTHER IS | FUCKING | WEETABIX | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:30:12 -!- Weetabix has joined.
23:30:40 -!- elliott has set topic: Beet a wix | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:30:43 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
23:30:57 <cheater00> every time i read weetabix i think of Mr. Bix from the redmeat comic book
23:31:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: Beet a wix | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage. More at 11..
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23:31:53 <elliott> I'll beet YOUR wixed parentage.
23:39:11 <Sgeo> ....did I have a dream about using Linux Mint?
23:50:36 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m [b]
23:50:54 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
23:51:22 <Sgeo> So, not 3 or 4 lakes per floor, then?
23:51:30 <Sgeo> I think that would have been survivable
23:52:28 <j-invariant> elliott: I can't pick up lava in my bucket :/
23:52:39 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah you have to get a source block
23:54:26 <j-invariant> do I need something special to mine gold/redstone?
23:54:43 <Ilari> Or because it had so many suspicious chemicals in it?
23:58:03 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_(Ore)
23:58:05 <elliott> j-invariant: iron or diamond pickaxe
23:58:15 <elliott> j-invariant: same for gold
23:59:36 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I could make a web framework that's horrific as possible, to ensure that my prediction about Haskell comes true, while still not writing, you know, a *web framework*, because i'd feel awful
23:59:48 <elliott> maybe if i make it out of category theory!
00:00:07 <elliott> morphisms are ... redirections!
00:00:37 <elliott> i'll use lots of template haskell, so nobody can read it without first studying every macro
00:00:39 <Sgeo> elliott, what's your prediction about Haskell?
00:00:49 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
00:00:53 <lambdabot> int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05)
00:00:57 <lambdabot> int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05)
00:01:03 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
00:01:15 <elliott> ok so it's not 2009 any more, but who cares
00:01:24 <Sgeo> There's a Haskell web framework in the works, isn't there?
00:01:43 <Sgeo> There's only one that I heard of >.>
00:01:55 <elliott> http://happstack.com/index.html
00:02:26 <elliott> Sgeo: happstack is the maintained fork of the dead-but-famous HAppS
00:02:38 <Ilari> About throwing up that weetabix
00:02:53 <elliott> Ilari: But Weetabix is delicious!
00:03:00 <elliott> Delicious like CEREAL BLOCK
00:03:42 <elliott> j-invariant: lol, what have I done, I'm actually writing example code for a web framework now :(
00:03:46 <elliott> i think this makes me a bad person
00:03:49 <elliott> but at least i'm optimising for insanity
00:03:59 <elliott> The perfect web framework for type theorists!
00:04:26 <elliott> Ph.D. getting you nowhere? Have to take a job in the web development industry? We feel your pain. And we're going to give you some more!
00:04:58 <Sgeo> Snap's the only one I heard of
00:05:12 <elliott> Probably because Snap is the one with the obnoxious Ruby-style marketing flash.
00:05:39 <elliott> j-invariant: D.entity [d| data Item = Item { text :: String } |]
00:05:48 <elliott> j-invariant: guess what this does? hint: the answer is not "define text :: Item -> String"
00:05:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:06:17 <elliott> (that would be the obvious thing)
00:06:21 <elliott> (and therefore wrong, in this context)
00:06:44 <Sgeo> elliott, better than haXe, which seems to be an entire LANGUAGE based on marketting flash
00:07:29 <j-invariant> elliott well it must creaet an HTML tag for this data type
00:07:39 <elliott> j-invariant: no, no, better, this has nothing to do with the web, this particular bit
00:07:47 <elliott> j-invariant: what it does is make text a data-accessor
00:08:00 <elliott> i.e. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-accessor
00:08:06 <elliott> so you have to do item^.text
00:08:15 <elliott> but hey, that's USEFUL! totally useful!
00:08:23 <elliott> and overloading the normal definition syntax?
00:08:26 <elliott> totally the right way to go about it
00:08:43 <elliott> j-invariant: can you reassure me that I won't accidentally invent something useful here :/
00:09:31 <elliott> actually what i'm doing here as a joke is disturbingly like what Yesod does
00:09:54 <elliott> no, no, it's clearly proof that I cannot avoid injecting my genius into things
00:10:04 <elliott> if i continue, i will have the world's first good web framework!
00:10:19 <elliott> then, I will make shit smell like flowers and taste like lemonade
00:10:29 <elliott> even if that's somewhat less impressive
00:15:35 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:16:27 -!- Oklopol has joined.
00:17:12 <elliott> Oklopol is an poklo ol, confirm/deny?
00:18:20 <elliott> j-invariant: LOL, it looks like just about everything I wrote as a joke is a yesod core feature
00:18:29 <elliott> What we're learning here is: Haskell, lol
00:18:41 <Gregor> elliott: Oh that's it, you are SO sued for slander.
00:18:52 <elliott> Gregor: Sure thing, Mr. Weetabix.
00:19:32 <Gregor> elliott: I think you mean Mr. Oklopol's-Lawyer. -stein.
00:19:53 <elliott> j-invariant: Rolling On the Floor, Neglecting parts of my life by playing minecraft?
00:21:13 <elliott> j-invariant: do you know what makes me SAD? Two-way parsers aren't powerful enough to parse most things
00:21:26 <elliott> (single combinator definition a la parsec but only Applicative that can both parse and deparse)
00:21:30 <elliott> j-invariant: someone proved it to me on #haskell once :-D
00:21:32 <Gregor> elliott: SOUNDS LIKE IT'S TIME FOR A THREE-WAY THEN.
00:21:42 <elliott> Gregor: Parsing, deparsing, and ... ARSING?!
00:21:52 <elliott> j-invariant: i know it's horrible, i wanted to write all parsers like that forever
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00:22:50 <elliott> j-invariant: (Foo =:<= digit) <: digit <: digit
00:22:55 <Gregor> elliott: I'm so glad your dialect has a convenient rhyme :P
00:23:01 <elliott> -> 123 is (Foo '2' '3') and vice versa
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00:26:15 <j-invariant> elliott: great now I have all the Obsidian I need -- just have to get a pick to mine it
00:26:44 <elliott> j-invariant: you're meant to use buckets of lava and water to construct the portal in-place
00:26:51 <elliott> that way, you don't have to mine it later
00:26:53 <elliott> which is exceedingly tedious
00:27:04 <elliott> you are meant to *create the obsidian in the right place* the first time :)
00:27:22 <elliott> make sure to see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Portal for how to make a portal and also how to cut corners if you want to avoid using too much obsidian
00:28:30 <elliott> Vorpal: obsidian is renewable
00:28:32 <elliott> "Even when a portal is built with only 10 blocks of Obsidian (by leaving out the corners), the portal frame spawned on the other side will have the full 14 blocks."
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00:29:11 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUxhO9VLKPY
00:29:27 <j-invariant> Contrary to public belief[2], portals do not conserve momentum.
00:33:33 <nooga> http://pastie.org/1468410 maybe somebody know what this piece does in prolog
00:33:55 * pikhq *still* finds it somewhat odd that the Super Bowl is actually broadcast outside of the US...
00:34:13 <pikhq> Are there that many non-Americans that give a crap?
00:34:50 <elliott> nooga: Impossible to say without the context, dude. But it looks like some kind of proof-generating system.
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00:35:15 <coppro> They don't even air the same ads!
00:35:20 <coppro> but yes, unfortunately, there are
00:35:32 <pikhq> Okay, well. There is Canada, which actually has *reason* to care.
00:35:49 <pikhq> Namely, they also play football.
00:37:33 <coppro> oh, dunno if anyone else cares
00:38:33 <pikhq> Well, it certainly gets *shown* elsewhere.
00:38:56 <pikhq> How many Brits are likely to give a damn, though?
00:39:50 <Sgeo> Dominion episode1
00:40:25 <nooga> i'd like to modify that to produce proof trees
00:40:31 <nooga> but i don't know prolog
00:43:56 <j-invariant> I can't imagine what a proof tree would look like for prolog
00:44:20 <nooga> that's what i'd like
00:44:32 <nooga> but i don't get it :D
00:47:08 <j-invariant> ! is the hardest part of prolog to understand.
00:47:35 <nooga> http://cs.union.edu/~striegnk/learn-prolog-now/html/node96.html
00:47:35 <j-invariant> Basically they had implemented prolog in a very specific way, and exploited the way it was done to add this new ! thing
00:47:39 <nooga> and what is X here?
00:48:58 <j-invariant> They way they implemented prolog was to have it every time a choice can be made they push that set of branches to a stack
00:49:28 <j-invariant> ! erases all the alternatives of the top most choice point
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00:52:18 * Sgeo cuts j-invariant
00:53:16 <zzo38> Now I made up a program to track the dynamic memory usage of other program. Is there better ways?
00:54:54 <Sgeo> What will happen if I eat clementines as my only fruit?
00:55:15 <Sgeo> [Currently, I'm not eating fruits on a regular basis]
00:56:05 <pikhq> Well, you'll be at a much lower risk of scurvy.
00:56:07 <zzo38> pikhq: Is it answer to me?
00:56:36 <zzo38> I am on Windows, though. (The program is cross-platform, however.)
00:56:56 <zzo38> (I do not like Windows that much; UNIX is better, but Windows is what I have, so I use it.)
00:57:14 <fizzie> I guess that depends on "topmost"; I mean, for a(X,Y,Z) :- b(X), b(Y), !, b(Z) where b(X) can produce multiple choices, the ! will make it not backtrack to try out different values for either X or Y; not just cut the latest possible branching point where the value for Y was determined. (It will also not try some hypothetical other a(X,Y,Z) :- whatever rule it otherwise could.)
00:58:06 <zzo38> This is the program: http://sprunge.us/IHEa You can tell me if I did something wrong.
01:00:35 <Sgeo> Why do humans peel certain fruits?
01:01:24 <coppro> because the rind is difficult and/or unrewarding to eat
01:01:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Probably from not liking eating some of the outsides.
01:03:26 <Sgeo> Non-human animals are presumably ok with it
01:03:58 <Sgeo> ^^not a good reason to do what non-human animals do
01:04:59 <zzo38> Another reason might be if it is dirty outside.
01:05:07 <zzo38> But, some people do like to eat the peeling.
01:05:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: Mostly just preference.
01:05:14 <zzo38> (Sometimes separately from the inside part)
01:07:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: Though some fruits are actually inedible without peeling.
01:07:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, how does that make sense?
01:07:38 <zzo38> pikhq: Then don't eat it!
01:07:53 <Sgeo> What do non-human animals do with such fruits?
01:08:06 <Sgeo> Or did these fruits evolve after mankind started peeling fruits?
01:08:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's "inedible to humans".
01:10:28 <pikhq> And of course, you must remember that most human-consumed foods are the result of artificial selection.
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01:12:09 <pikhq> (fun fact: the bananas we typically cultivate & consume cannot survive without human intervention!)
01:15:27 <pikhq> (okay, this is actually true of an *insane* number of species...)
01:16:27 <Gregor> THAT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE CREATED BY GOD FOR US
01:17:10 <coppro> actually, when you mention bananas, it's worth noting that animals do typically peel bananas
01:17:14 <pikhq> Gregor: God created the turkey-physically-incapable-of-having-sex?
01:17:39 <pikhq> coppro: How in the world do non-primates handle that?
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01:18:26 <coppro> pikhq: Either they eat the bananas or don't eat them or do weird things to them?
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01:18:53 <pikhq> coppro: "Peel bananas", specifically.
01:19:18 <coppro> pikhq: my suggestion was that they do not
01:28:32 * variable belongs to the Church of Google anyways
01:28:51 <coppro> I think I'm being recruited
01:30:45 <zzo38> variable: Why did you belong to the Church of Google?
01:31:40 <variable> zzo38, well god has to be omniscient right? and doesn't google fit that criteria ?
01:31:54 <variable> also google answers my prayers - whatever I want to know - it knows
01:32:08 <variable> also - google is all good - it can do no evil
01:32:57 <zzo38> variable: Google does not know everything. Many things I find it hard to find at all no matter what.
01:34:55 <variable> zzo38, then you must not be a True Believer. Have more trust in your query and you shall learn
01:34:57 <zzo38> I don't use Google very often.
01:35:31 <Gregor> Give all thine data to The Google and The Google shall give all its love to you.
01:35:59 <zzo38> I more often use Wikipedia to search for information than I use Google.
01:36:53 <variable> zzo38, wikipedia is a saint in the Church of Google
01:37:42 <zzo38> variable: I don't care who they are a saint of or not.
01:37:57 <zzo38> Also, I use a lot of different things.
01:38:43 <zzo38> I will ask on IRC, and search some things on Veronica. And I have some books, I will look there. Or, looking at the files I have in my computer.
01:38:54 <zzo38> But I do sometimes search Google, as well.
01:40:07 <variable> zzo38, your taking the fun out of it
01:40:38 <zzo38> I do not use Google as much as most other people, however.
01:43:10 <variable> zzo38, tbh I'm finding that google is getting worse and worse
01:43:28 <zzo38> variable: I also find it getting worse and worse. In more than one way.
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02:32:18 <zzo38> Invent a chess variant involving some esolangs.
02:34:54 <zzo38> I think I have heard of it though.
02:36:19 <calamari> anyhow, HQ9+ could be the pawn :P
02:37:06 <zzo38> Yes, if the game is designed to work in a way that is like that.
02:38:10 <zzo38> Other ideas are: Make a game based on 2-dimensional esolangs. Make a game with some hidden information. Make a game involving cards with commands to execute on the board.
02:38:45 <zzo38> calamari: Yes, it certainly does not seem sensible that you could make a chess variant where HQ9+ could be the pawn (or where any esolang "could be the pawn").
02:39:35 <zzo38> It can be a game with normal chess board/chess pieces, or one with a different size of board and different pieces.
02:39:36 <calamari> anyhow, what I liked about crobots was that you could make some complicated program that did all sorts of stuf.. but then it would get killed by a simple program because the complicated one was bloated and slow in comparison
02:52:18 <zzo38> Make a chess variant involving pieces with the INTERCAL commands on them.
02:53:31 <pikhq> I think it says something about me that I generally have to close dozens of Wikipedia pages every day...
02:53:50 <pikhq> Not sure what, though.
02:54:15 <olsner> doesn't strike me as a very unique problem :)
02:54:39 <pikhq> Probably a pretty common problem, really.
02:55:12 <zzo38> I hardly ever have more than two Wikipedia pages open at once.
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03:00:12 <calamari> sorry I'd have to agree.. when I get on wikipedia, if I get more than a few tabs opened, I'm doomed, because that means I'll be on there all night as my tabs grow to infinity
03:13:44 <zzo38> Please tell me whether or not this is good enough: http://sprunge.us/NXPL
03:14:41 <olsner> hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
03:15:37 <zzo38> olsner: It is compileable program, but it requires Enhanced CWEB. Also, it won't compile without TeXnicard, because of the line that says #include "texnicard.c"
03:16:02 <zzo38> I mean just to read to see if the memory usage stuff is workable or if there is something wrong with it.
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04:05:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Because eCloud Technologies is going to let us enter the Internet Age!
04:06:23 <Gregor> I am absolutely bursting to tell people about the awesome thing I just did.
04:06:39 <Gregor> (For about a month and a half)
04:07:42 <pikhq> Too awesome for our brains to comprehend, and we need to wait for your newfound singularity to improve our brains enough to be able to understand it?
04:08:10 <Gregor> (Not that much closer, but the competition is "NDA" :P
04:08:39 <pikhq> Hey, "NDA" is at least *plausible*.
04:09:02 <olsner> Gregor finally made contact with aliens
04:09:36 <Gregor> (Still not close at all, but indisputably closer)
04:09:52 <oerjan> Gregor finally made contact with ... something
04:10:27 <oerjan> ...the aliens are the close part?
04:10:49 <Sgeo> Gregor did something with an FFI (hence the closeness of "aliens")
04:11:10 <Gregor> Mmm ... about equally close. In the "still not close at all" sense.
04:11:25 <Sgeo> Gregor did something.
04:11:53 <oerjan> damn you Sgeo now we cannot get closer!
04:12:31 * oerjan suddenly remembers ais523's aversion to "damn you"
04:16:09 <pikhq> DAMNATION BE UPON ÞEE
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05:34:26 <Sgeo> elliott did stuff with Factor
05:50:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo, hasn't he done something in nearly every non-crap language you heard of (and possibly a few of the crap ones too)
05:50:39 <coppro> he hasn't actually done anything about them
05:50:50 <coppro> just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him
05:51:06 <Vorpal> Probably he ignored the mediocre and tried out the real crappy ones. I seem to remember he tried to code something in "Plain English" just for the laughs.
05:52:00 <Vorpal> coppro, that might be a bit of an extreme point of view. The truth is probably in between
05:52:38 <coppro> does your leg hurt yet? if not I'll pull it harder
05:52:54 <Vorpal> coppro, oh right. I just woke up :P
05:53:23 <Vorpal> coppro, besides if I can't clearly detect humour I default to taking a statement as serious
05:53:32 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to look at Io again
05:54:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why are you so language-ambivalent?
05:55:00 <coppro> Sgeo: the language or the moon?
05:55:05 <coppro> I assure you the latter is more interesting
05:55:25 <Sgeo> Why the Io hate?
05:55:50 <coppro> It's just that Io is friggin awesome
05:56:07 <Vorpal> coppro, not as awesome as Europe or Titan iirc?
05:56:11 <coppro> it's the most active body in the solar system
05:56:12 <pikhq> "That's because he's speaking in French the entire series, and the Universal Translator turns it into vaguely british sounding English." On Jean-Luc Picard.
05:56:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, where is that from?
05:57:10 <Sgeo> Is there an "anti-block" in Io?
05:57:30 <Sgeo> Force this piece of code to be executed before the surrounding function looks at it
05:57:47 <coppro> Io loses one ton a second of material to the Jovian magnetosphere
05:57:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh. I would have gussed memory alpha for something that absurd ;P
05:58:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's not absurd in the context of the series, it really isn't.
05:58:24 <Sgeo> So, when does Io die?
05:58:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, well I watched (part of) the series.
05:58:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, and I still think it is rather absurd :P
05:58:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Did Riker have a beard?
05:59:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, seen both with and without that
05:59:20 <pikhq> Ah, good, you didn't soley get the pain of the first season.
05:59:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, some of the first season was okay
05:59:44 <coppro> the first season was painful
05:59:53 <Vorpal> not the Q stuff though
06:00:01 <pikhq> It ranged from mediocre to OH HOLY GOD THAT HURTS.
06:00:11 <pikhq> With the exception of the first appearance of Q.
06:00:20 <pikhq> Which was put in as *filler*...
06:00:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed that was okay, the second was not
06:00:47 <pikhq> To pad the series opening out to two hours.
06:00:54 <Vorpal> anyway. Off to university now.
06:01:04 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is Io a bit of an anti-Haskell?
06:01:12 <coppro> TNG was at its best when it was full of philosophy
06:01:25 <Sgeo> In Haskell, you can (kind of) substitute definitions for .. defined things
06:01:31 <pikhq> It was at its worst when it was trying to be TOS with a different cast.
06:02:13 <Sgeo> In most languages, you don't expect a difference between passing in an expression, and a name containing the value of the resulting expression
06:02:29 <Sgeo> I know there's a term for that, mentioned in SICP, but I don;t know what it is
06:02:34 <Sgeo> Io throws that out the window
06:02:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: As does C. Macros!
06:03:30 <coppro> Sgeo: referential transparency
06:03:44 <coppro> referential transparency is a rare feature
06:04:20 <Sgeo> What I mean is, in most languages:
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06:04:28 <pikhq> coppro: Really? Most languages at least have it for pass-by-value.
06:04:31 <Sgeo> is the same as
06:04:44 <coppro> oh, that's not referential transparency
06:04:49 <coppro> referential transparency is
06:04:53 <Sgeo> That's not referential transparency, but there's a name for it in SICP
06:05:02 <Sgeo> I haven't actually read it >.>
06:05:08 <coppro> b(foo()) != b(2) where foo() returns 2
06:05:23 <coppro> pikhq: no language with side-effects does
06:05:42 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, dur, I should've specified "modulo side effects".
06:05:56 <Sgeo> Can I construe this conversation as a defense for Io?
06:05:58 <pikhq> But that makes it nearly meaningless as a distinction.
06:06:19 <coppro> I cannot imagine a language that did not have referential transparency modulo side effects
06:06:35 <coppro> Sgeo: prease to be explraining preblerm
06:06:59 <Sgeo> Io does not have referencial transparency modulo side effects.
06:07:17 <coppro> k I'm going to bed now
06:07:20 <pikhq> coppro: Tcl doesn't always.
06:07:29 <Sgeo> I may be misunderstanding
06:07:44 <pikhq> Granted, you have to be doing nasty things to it for that to come up.
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06:08:08 <pikhq> About on par with heavy, heavy macroing in Lisp.
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06:08:41 <pikhq> (oh, the joys of a *first-class stack*)
06:09:00 <Sgeo> I think the thing with Io is, every call can be to what another language would call a "macro", and it might be easier to write macros in Io
06:09:05 <Sgeo> (Haven't begun experimenting yet)
06:09:15 <pikhq> Erm, not first-class.
06:09:15 <coppro> pikhq: until your compiler is first-class, you aren't doing it right :P
06:09:24 <pikhq> But... Readily accessible call stack.
06:09:47 <pikhq> coppro: Sadly, the dodekalogue is not modifiable.
06:10:16 <Sgeo> coppro, this is an if statement in Io:
06:10:16 <Sgeo> if(b == 0, c + 1, d)
06:10:43 <Sgeo> Wow, that's not nearly as revealing as I want
06:10:58 <Sgeo> System args foreach(k, v, write("'", v, "'\n"))
06:11:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: Looks like side effects to me. :P
06:11:36 <Ilari> Hmm... Now the Lagerholm estimate is 19th. Wonder if that 15th was processing error or if he added couple of days for processing delay.
06:12:23 <pikhq> Probably processing delay.
06:12:45 <Sgeo> people select(age < 30)
06:13:25 <pikhq> As APNIC is *definitely* below his declared threshold right now.
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06:31:27 <Sgeo> In Io, strings have encodings
06:31:37 <Sgeo> That... just makes no sense
06:32:00 <Sgeo> Encodings refer to the physical representation, not to.. an inherit property of Unicode text
07:04:07 <Sgeo> I am suddenly reminded of Haskellian laziness
07:05:03 <pikhq> Praise be to the almightly lambda.
07:11:46 <Ilari> Thinking that Unicode isn't superset of everything?
07:14:26 <Sgeo> n/m my comment on Haskellian laziness
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07:36:02 * Sgeo likes how Googleable Ioke is
07:40:09 * Sgeo likes the distinction between the place where methods accessible from anywhere go (Ground) and the [kind of] top level Object (Origin)
07:41:24 <Sgeo> Wait, it might be DefaultBehavior, not Ground, I'm not sure
07:44:17 <Sgeo> HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP.
07:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke
07:46:00 <Sgeo> http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/Guide#Let
07:46:18 <Sgeo> "Of course, it's a power that can be abused, but it gives lots of interesting possibilities for expression."
07:46:32 <Sgeo> Yeah, well, it prevents poisoning of the global state
07:46:59 * Sgeo can think of potential bad interactions though
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08:01:47 <oerjan> excitement of the day: can Sgeo manage to break up with Ioke before elliott wakes up and modifies shutup?
08:03:14 <fizzie> oerjan: We should have some sort of a betting pool.
08:04:01 <Sgeo> Actually, let might not be as useful for what I was imagining
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08:13:58 <Ilari> Hurr... APNIC has allocated over 8M addresses just this month...
08:25:31 <pikhq> That's a pretty insane allocation rate.
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09:01:14 <Ilari> Now the estimate is 20th... Anyway, one would expect the allocation request very soon (or it may already have been sent)...
09:03:33 <Ilari> If the threshold is 2, one would expect allocation request to be sent today...
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11:15:06 <ais523> hmm, that was pleasantly unexpected
11:24:04 <ais523> email conversation goes vaguely like this: <someone higher-ranking than me> service X seems to do everything we want <ais523> but that would violate the terms of service <original person> you seem to be right, I'll look for a different service
11:24:14 <ais523> this does not fit in with the typical stereotype of an employer
11:24:35 <ais523> (although companies tend to be more worried about doing something illegal than individual people, as they can be relatively large targets to sue)
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11:25:37 <ais523> also, wtf?: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01/16/2110254/Facebook-Opens-Up-Home-Addresses-and-Phone-Numbers
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15:19:45 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/5rNti.jpg
15:20:25 <elliott> 23:44:17 <Sgeo> HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP.
15:20:25 <elliott> 23:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke
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15:22:21 <elliott> % This program is public domain, but if you combine it with GPL program,
15:22:21 <elliott> % the combination is licensed by GPL.
15:22:27 <elliott> zzo38: That is not even close to legally valid.
15:22:32 <elliott> pikhq: You be in charge of telling him why not.
15:22:41 <elliott> It's either trivially true, or utterly invalid.
15:24:20 <elliott> 17:40:07 <variable> zzo38, your taking the fun out of it
15:24:25 <elliott> variable: you're taking the 're out of you're
15:25:18 <elliott> oerjan: swat variable for me
15:25:21 <oerjan> WE SPELLS OUR GRAMMARS PROPERLY HERE IN #ESOTERIC
15:25:34 <elliott> oerjan: dad blamed is apparently a euphemism for god damned
15:26:42 <elliott> or, in Sgeoland, a euphemism for BANNED
15:26:50 <variable> erm elliott that statement is invalid because of the "this program is public domain"
15:26:55 <oerjan> variable: i recall a recent reddit post arguing that people correcting each other's grammar and spelling is the only thing keeping communities from descending into youtube comment quality
15:27:13 <elliott> variable: preeeecisely...except /arguably/ it is just stating informatively /what/ the GPL demands
15:27:19 <elliott> either way, it's completely useless text :)
15:27:56 <oerjan> hm or was it recent, it may have been just linked from a recent reddit comment
15:28:28 <elliott> variable: the program zzo linked yesterday
15:28:31 <elliott> he is a fan of terrible licensing!
15:28:42 <elliott> he can't seem to not invent his own ... like everything else ...
15:28:47 <variable> oerjan, why do I get the feeling that 50% of the comments were a flame about some perfectly normal variation? ie color v colour ?
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15:29:05 <oerjan> variable: well that happens of course :D
15:29:21 <oerjan> i think a saw someone complaining about "whilst" yesterday
15:29:26 <elliott> variable: *colour vs. colour
15:29:30 <elliott> you illiterate American bastard!
15:30:06 <oerjan> variable: however on reddit that just means we're in for the _next_ commenter giving us a lesson
15:30:38 <variable> elliott, did I mention that UK shows are so much better than the Americanized versions (Hustle v Leverage)?
15:31:15 <oerjan> #esoteric is of course _almost_ indistinguishable from parts of reddit
15:31:19 <elliott> variable: you are granted temporary lenience.
15:31:23 <elliott> oerjan: er are you sure about that :D
15:31:50 <oerjan> elliott: hey i corrected it to "parts of" before pressing enter!
15:32:15 <elliott> oerjan: I'd like to see a subreddit as flamewarry as here... or as interesting... or as off-topic
15:33:17 <oerjan> r/politics for the first perhaps?
15:33:35 <elliott> oerjan: ok but with #esoteric the important thing is that it's intelligent people arguing like morons
15:33:46 <elliott> /r/politics is just morons arguing like morons
15:35:44 <oerjan> also things go off-topic all the time in the comments
15:36:15 <elliott> oerjan: well sure, but I just don't really see this place as being similar to reddit
15:36:32 <elliott> oerjan: proggit circa early 2007, perhaps
15:36:53 <oerjan> and people keep complaining about r/science not having real science although i saw a post indicating they were intending to moderate more restrictively
15:36:55 <elliott> 19:13:44 <zzo38> Please tell me whether or not this is good enough: http://sprunge.us/NXPL
15:36:55 <elliott> 19:14:41 <olsner> hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
15:37:01 <elliott> olsner: ENHAAAAAANCED CWEEEEEEEEEEB
15:37:40 <elliott> It gives you PROGRAMMING POWERS
15:37:50 <elliott> You can write a BOOK and it's a PROGRAM but a BOOK and a program yet a BOOK!
15:37:58 <elliott> IT RENDERS LINE NUMBERS TO .DVI
15:38:54 <elliott> 21:34:26 <Sgeo> elliott did stuff with Factor
15:38:54 <elliott> Yes, I had a half-broken commit made to the repository that got fixed by Slava and made "0 /" give a less horrific exception.
15:39:05 <elliott> 21:50:39 <coppro> he hasn't actually done anything about them
15:39:05 <elliott> 21:50:50 <coppro> just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him
15:39:13 <elliott> ^cat coppro: factually incorrect
15:39:13 <fungot> coppro: factually incorrect
15:39:32 <elliott> I wonder if I accidentally killed coppro's dog or something
15:39:54 <oerjan> elliott: thinking about it, it's possible that i just tune out the parts i like the least from both places, making them converge :)
15:42:38 <oerjan> elliott: it takes a few more lines than that to make me _start_ tuning out, naturally :D
15:42:49 <elliott> Vorpal: pumpkin enclosed with leaves, how odd
15:43:14 <elliott> Vorpal: ok this whole tree seems to exist solely to conceal pumpkins
15:43:23 <Sgeo> elliott, do ypu dislike Ioke? I assume if you do, it's for the same "It has no rules" reason for hating Io
15:43:51 <elliott> It's probably better than Io but I don't see any reason to give it any attention.
15:44:05 <elliott> It is, IIRC, JVM-hosted, which is a strong negative.
15:44:18 * oerjan paging shutup in 1, 2...
15:46:16 <elliott> oerjan: Waaay too lazy to add anything to it since it doesn't seem to have done anything.
15:47:09 <oerjan> oh not done anything to Sgeo you mean
15:47:26 <oerjan> well you do not seriously _expect_ people to respond constructively to harassment, do you?
15:47:46 <oerjan> _even_ if you're right about the fundamental issue
15:49:23 <oerjan> triggering people's basic defense instincts is not a way to make them behave rationally.
15:50:49 <oerjan> not that i imagine Sgeo caring that much about shutup anyhow
15:51:53 * oerjan always feels hypocritical when talking about how people should behave :(
15:58:32 <elliott> oerjan: well i _have_ tried talking him out of it, and yelling at him directly
15:58:40 <elliott> and i can hardly program a bot to talk rationally, so instead it yells
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16:00:47 <elliott> fizzie: I think you might want to remove the "simple little" part from the mcmap README's first line.
16:00:54 <elliott> It's quite a hefty program now. :p
16:01:28 <oerjan> simple little behemoth
16:02:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't done a thing.
16:02:17 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, I'm going to tweak the dependency-generating rule with that option that ignores non-existent headers, assuming they're generated; currently it won't generate dependencies if protocol-data.h doesn't exist.
16:03:13 <elliott> How do you know I didn't push a SECRET UPDATE to decolour TNT!!?!??@49837869rumkf
16:05:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Srsly, all I did last night was walk around.
16:05:32 <elliott> I am currently lost somewhere far away from the Cube.
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16:08:20 <cheater-> elliott: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
16:08:30 <elliott> Now what are the coords of spawn again...
16:08:44 <elliott> fizzie: Also outdated: "If you leave it out, the window will be resizable, but resize events are not handled, so something bad will probably happen. (Fixing this is on the hypothetical TODO list.)"
16:08:53 <elliott> fizzie: I pushed that build system fix, btw.
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16:10:41 <ais523> [15:40] <elliott> ais523: hi <-- hi
16:11:02 <elliott> ais523: what are good times to bug you about scapegoat relative to your sleep schedule? :-P
16:11:29 <ais523> elliott: oh, the issue for me now is that I'm looking at #esoteric when people speak there
16:11:32 <ais523> but not really taking in any of the words
16:12:06 <elliott> ais523: surely the tab colour for minecraft is different if you've been pinged?
16:12:09 <elliott> that's xchat default, at least
16:12:47 <ais523> but as I said, I just noticed I'd been pinged, looked at the channel, then went back to looking at something else
16:12:50 <ais523> and again, didn't actually read it
16:12:55 <ais523> I think my brain is IRCing on autopilot
16:13:43 <cheater-> ais523: check the link i pasted
16:13:47 <elliott> ais523: IF I PING YOU LIKE THIS WOULD IT HELP
16:14:32 <elliott> ais523: BEEP BEEP WAKE UP BEEEEEEEP
16:15:30 <ais523> elliott: I only noticed the third one
16:15:38 <elliott> ais523: ok, i'll use that in future
16:15:47 <ais523> and probably only because I was looking at the channel at the time
16:16:11 <elliott> ais523: this is why most people have system-wide indicators if they've been pinged :P
16:16:38 <elliott> or just _really_ good at ignoring things?
16:16:48 <ais523> no, I just don't react to the fact I was pinged for whatever reason
16:16:54 <ais523> also, #esoteric was set not to trigger them
16:16:57 <ais523> which probably has something to do with it
16:17:02 <ais523> must have been a mouse-typo weeks ago
16:17:12 <elliott> that might be something worth fixing :p
16:17:30 <ais523> as in, I looked in the client's config, and there was a specific config entry meaning "#esoteric should not ping me no matter what's said there"
16:17:37 <elliott> ais523: I don't know if you heard the last time I said, but my scapegoat implementation can now order and apply changesets
16:17:50 <elliott> ais523: which I think means it does automatic merging
16:18:04 <ais523> what happens on a changeset that contains a conflict?
16:18:05 <elliott> because the changeset {A, B}, when applied, will produce an automatic merge of A and B if one is possible, right?
16:18:08 <elliott> ais523: it returns Nothing :-)
16:18:12 <elliott> that's my only failure mechanism right now
16:18:22 <elliott> i'm trying to get it as platonically elegant as possible before ruining it
16:18:28 <ais523> and you can upgrade it to a better monad later
16:18:42 <ais523> e.g. Either, for the purpose of returning more details about the problem
16:18:47 <elliott> ais523: doubt it needs to be a monad; just (Either ApplyError [Line])
16:18:51 <elliott> hmm, is (Either a) a monad?
16:18:55 <elliott> I think it only is under certain conditions
16:19:10 <ais523> it's just Maybe + error message
16:19:29 <ais523> as long as you use Right as the actual value, and Left as the error condition; its >>= is defined with that assumption
16:20:07 <elliott> ais523: anyway, what do you think I should implement next? I was thinking changes-on-sets (i.e. directories), but I'm not sure
16:20:28 <ais523> hmm, it might be better to ask me when I'm capable of concious thought
16:20:32 <ais523> which it seems I'm not at the moment
16:20:34 <elliott> (and my attempts to refit the code to allow genericisation have resulted in ugliness
16:20:46 <elliott> ais523: heh, try and remember to ping me when you are then :P
16:21:56 <ais523> anyway, my sleep schedule is mostly OK except I was awake all night Saturday -> Sunday, due to looking after a relative
16:22:06 <ais523> and this is the first week of term
16:23:49 <ais523> and I have a report deadline
16:24:55 <elliott> ais523: just one question if you feel conscious enough to answer it: do you think it's possible to derive the file changes with an F([String]) and the directory changes with F(Set DirEntry) for the same F?
16:25:06 <elliott> i.e. are they direct analogues of each other that can be auto-generated?
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16:25:34 <ais523> aha, probably not, because the way you specify context is different
16:25:36 <elliott> Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know?
16:25:46 <elliott> ais523: because with a list, you go between two elements
16:25:49 -!- Vorpal has quit (Disconnected by services).
16:25:50 <elliott> ais523: with a set, you specify the whole set
16:25:55 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
16:26:04 <ais523> and that's a big enough difference to confuse type systems
16:26:05 <Vorpal> <elliott> [17:29:57] Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know? <-- no idea
16:26:14 <Vorpal> elliott, some smallish positive number?
16:26:19 <elliott> Vorpal: well i know that :)
16:26:24 <ais523> wait, is this channel still talking about minecraft?
16:26:25 <elliott> ais523: even then, I've been trying to make a "Change" typeclass so that I can define operations generic to change type ... but this might be fruitless
16:26:47 <elliott> ais523: at the same time, I think I still want _some_ sort of genericity, because e.g. both types of change have the same metadata
16:27:01 <ais523> it's just getting levels of abstraction right
16:27:11 <ais523> and that's coming up in my research atm and confusing me
16:27:16 <elliott> ais523: I think I'll make a distinction between "changes" and "patches"
16:27:19 <Vorpal> also my computer crashed. Something with USB is shoddy and can cause a reset.
16:27:25 <elliott> ais523: change = basic operation; patch = change + metadata
16:27:29 <elliott> ais523: changes reference patches
16:27:40 <elliott> i.e., a change might be "insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2", and a patch using it might be:
16:27:42 <ais523> I'm not sure how useful the naming is there, but I doubt any other naming would do better
16:27:50 <elliott> insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2
16:27:53 <ais523> and the concepts are certainly useful
16:27:58 <elliott> ais523: well, a patch is the kind of thing you'd show to another person, a change isn't
16:28:34 <ais523> OK, here's a concept English doesn't have a word for, and comes up a lot in programming: imagine something like a computer game (Minecraft perhaps?) where you want to generate some in-game concept (perhaps monsters)
16:28:53 <elliott> ais523: now we're on-topic! ...wait...
16:29:03 <ais523> there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from
16:29:31 <elliott> ais523: I'd call the former a monster and the latter a monster-class
16:29:35 <ais523> the question is, how do you name the second type of monster, to show it's distinct from the first?
16:29:38 <elliott> but those don't make sense to refer to Changes as
16:29:46 <Vorpal> ais523, you mean like the idea of an monster (as in Platon (sp in English?))
16:29:48 <ais523> oh, that wasn't a scapegoat reference at all
16:29:48 <elliott> i assume that's what you're trying to say
16:30:00 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, I've seen "platonic" used to describe the concept before
16:30:09 <elliott> it's just a template vs. instance
16:30:09 <ais523> but it doesn't seem to fit exactly
16:30:13 <elliott> ais523: use OOP TERMINOLOGY!!192871349
16:30:14 <Vorpal> ais523, the second could perhaps be an instance of a monster
16:30:17 <elliott> well, in fact, this is almost directly OOP
16:30:21 <ais523> elliott: except you need multiple inheritance
16:30:36 <Vorpal> elliott, err, which one do you mean is the second
16:30:39 <Vorpal> and which is the first
16:30:47 <elliott> the one that came second in his message, perhaps?
16:30:50 <elliott> just thinking out loud here
16:30:54 <elliott> <ais523> there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from
16:30:56 <Vorpal> oh wait yeah I mixed up order
16:30:59 <Vorpal> I thought it was the other way around
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16:31:07 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you need MI?
16:31:38 <ais523> Vorpal: because sensibly, an individual monster needs to inherit from a monster class (if you're doing OO), and that's the way round nearly all games do it
16:31:54 <ais523> elliott's claiming it should also inherit from the monster template, which is entirely sensible except it requires MI
16:31:57 <oerjan> <elliott> I think it only is under certain conditions <-- the Left type needs an Error instance, is all
16:32:12 <elliott> ais523: class Grue < Monster := ...
16:32:15 <elliott> ais523: myGrue := new Grue
16:32:20 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/xyGf2UVF <- added some more info
16:32:29 <Vorpal> ais523, yep. So the monster classes inherits from some base class. And then you have instances of each monster. This is one of the few situations where OOP terminology actually seems pretty sensible
16:32:30 <ais523> elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates
16:32:36 <elliott> asiekierka: is this on Windows?
16:32:40 <Vorpal> and they are quite rare
16:32:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, yes they should
16:32:52 <elliott> ais523: Monster should inherit from GridEntity
16:33:00 <elliott> asiekierka: needs moar llvm
16:33:21 <ais523> elliott: ah, I see, that makes complete sense if you have a fixed set of monsters
16:33:43 <ais523> most games are written in such a way that monster types could be added at runtime
16:33:49 <ais523> which is weird, as none of them actually do do that
16:33:59 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates <-- so you could have another base class that includes other things which has a position in the game world, "entity" seems like the best name? Though this is getting very far into OOP now...
16:34:05 <elliott> ais523: how does that clash with my way of doing it?
16:34:08 <asiekierka> bench.c:67:1: error: 'main' must return 'int'
16:34:12 <elliott> Vorpal: welcome to me, five lines ago
16:34:34 <ais523> elliott: it requires generation of classes at runtime
16:34:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well you split your statements over more lines. Of course you get more said (though less per line)
16:34:59 <asiekierka> elliott - looks like we have a current winner
16:35:00 <ais523> asiekierka: gcc's error is actually similarly useful in this case
16:35:10 <elliott> asiekierka: you're testing this while you're running an irc client?
16:35:24 <ais523> elliott: I think that one's actually under -pedantic
16:35:44 <elliott> asiekierka: benchmarks while running Firefox
16:35:56 <Vorpal> ais523, if you want to make monsters at runtime you presumably also need to add some sort of game logic to them at runtime. Some sort of AI. Which means you need to add code at runtime anyway.
16:36:04 <Vorpal> either by scripting language
16:36:10 <Vorpal> or by loading native code, or something else
16:36:17 <ais523> elliott: it's not that ridiculous, you can use the POSIX timer that counts only time spent by the process in question
16:36:26 <ais523> and ignores other processes on the same processor
16:36:29 <Vorpal> (where "native" could be byte code if you do it in java or whatever)
16:36:36 <elliott> ais523: that's not a very good measurement
16:36:45 <elliott> ais523: since it'll probably be quite a bit less than a machine just running the benchmark
16:36:57 <Vorpal> ais523, how would you count waiting for IO and no other runnable task?
16:36:58 <elliott> well, i guess it depends on how it treats kernel time, but still
16:37:04 <ais523> elliott: seems I was wrong, it's under both -Wall /and/ -pedantic
16:37:07 <Vorpal> ais523, to that process or to nowhere?
16:37:16 <ais523> IO waits go to nowhere on that timer
16:37:16 <elliott> asiekierka: doesn't matter, your results are biased
16:37:27 <elliott> due to Firefox using different resources at different times, most likely
16:37:48 <ais523> elliott: well, which timer you use depends on what you're trying to measure
16:37:58 <Vorpal> ais523, then how do you deal with virtualisation. You can't tell really where time went if you are virtualised.
16:38:08 <ais523> I/O time is very relevant for benchmarking some programs, and not for others
16:38:15 <asiekierka> elliott: did not make a real difference
16:38:23 <elliott> asiekierka: you can't know that...
16:38:40 <elliott> asiekierka: including X11?
16:38:40 <asiekierka> but the console (used to run benchmarks), IRC client and 1 tab in Firefox
16:38:54 <elliott> we have different definitions of everything
16:38:55 <asiekierka> i need the irc client and firefox to update
16:38:57 <elliott> yours doesn't include X11, apparently
16:39:08 <ais523> there's a whole bunch of system services too
16:39:35 <ais523> I suppose you could use emulation, rather than virtualisation, for consistent benchmarks
16:39:44 <asiekierka> ais523: i will zip up the compiled binaries
16:39:52 <ais523> asiekierka: how would that help you benchmark them?
16:40:00 <ais523> well, I wouldn't want to
16:40:08 <ais523> it's not me who wants the benchmark results
16:40:22 <Vorpal> if you want benchmarks just to compare two situations (different softwares, before/after change) or such just turn off most CPU intensive stuff then set cpu frequency governor to performance. Then time the thing a number of times and take the average.
16:40:26 <Vorpal> most of the time that works well
16:40:41 <ais523> elliott: I would say "ugh CVS", except that I'm using RCS for a serious project
16:40:44 <asiekierka> Vorpal: timing a number of times is done by Linpack
16:40:51 <Vorpal> asiekierka, the other bits?
16:40:52 <elliott> ais523: well, they're BSD guys, they're luddites :)
16:41:14 <ais523> and it's not too awful, except for having to check out immediately after checking in when I'm the only person working on the file
16:41:22 <asiekierka> Vorpal - i do not know where to find the cpu governor and i tured off the cpu intensive stuff already, except what i need
16:41:25 <Vorpal> the CPU frequency really matters. ondemand is bad for quick benchmarks. Or anything where CPU load isn't high for a long time
16:41:35 <Vorpal> really it seriously messes up timing
16:41:45 <ais523> a locking VCS isn't really an issue at all when only one person is working on the file anyway
16:41:59 <elliott> ais523: see if you used SCAPEGOAT ... wait, i can't use that on you
16:42:12 <Vorpal> asiekierka, cpufreq-set -g performance -c 0, repeat with -c 1 and so on for each core in your CPU
16:42:46 <Vorpal> to restore just do cpufreq-set -g ondemand -c whatever for each core
16:42:55 <asiekierka> * Loading cpufreq kernel modules... [fail]
16:43:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> admittedly by mistake <-- uh how did that happen?
16:43:13 <elliott> "sudo'd or su'd" -- ah, to be incompetent.
16:43:18 <ais523> Vorpal: I was using LyX
16:43:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Man, that Painterly pack is weird.
16:43:27 <elliott> Vorpal: he accidentally typed "rcs"
16:43:30 <elliott> and it all went downhill from there
16:43:33 <ais523> and it has version control integration, but doesn't state the VCS when setting it up
16:43:33 <elliott> asiekierka: root is better than sudo?
16:43:42 <ais523> turns out, the only VCS it actually integrates with is RCS
16:43:47 <Vorpal> ais523, heh. I just ignore it's built in vcs support. But doesn't it do svn nowdays too?
16:44:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:44:03 <Vorpal> ais523, I think in the very last version or such
16:44:05 <ais523> but SVN is much worse than RCS for a single-developer project
16:44:08 <elliott> svn is like cvs, except without historical justification
16:44:15 <Vorpal> or was it git? well some non-rcs anyway
16:44:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, that museum must have been done with a map editor.
16:44:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why? Bedrock?
16:44:25 <ais523> my main annoyance with svn is the lack of local history
16:44:37 <ais523> although I've been using git-svn nowadays
16:44:46 <ais523> for use with other people's svn repos
16:44:53 <ais523> (or, in the case of UnNetHack, tailor)
16:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, but it has lapis, redstone and coal ore in the one room.
16:45:04 <ais523> elliott: hmm, we must add scapegoat support to tailor when we're done
16:45:14 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:45:16 <elliott> ais523: agreed, but IIRC Tailor's architecture is a bit bad? I forget
16:45:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:45:28 <elliott> ais523: I'm planning to write darcs2sg as soon as sg "works" so it can be tested
16:45:30 <asiekierka> anyway... /usr/include//stdio.h:34: error: cannot find 'stddef.h'
16:45:32 <ais523> elliott: it's probably awful, although I've never looked at the source it has a tendency to fail randomly
16:45:41 <ais523> or, not randomly, deterministically
16:45:51 <ais523> but without it being obvious what the relevant factors are
16:45:53 <elliott> asiekierka: you didn't install pcc-libs.
16:46:00 <elliott> asiekierka: also, use cvs, not the .tgzs.
16:46:03 <elliott> pcc-libs is only available via cvs too.
16:46:10 <elliott> ais523: sg basically needs to-sg-repo support anyway, for converting old repositories
16:46:12 <ais523> although VCS type seems to be one of them, and directory structure is possibly another
16:46:18 <elliott> ais523: so darcs can be done quite easily
16:46:27 <elliott> from-sg would take actual work, but who would want to do that? :)
16:46:53 <ais523> elliott: it wouldn't be too hard
16:47:12 <ais523> you'd just need to figure out what to define as a merge from the point of view of the other VCS
16:47:39 <ais523> you could either do it completely linear or maximally branching; the second would probably be a more accurate view of things, the first would correspond to a rebase and rebases are evil
16:48:32 <ais523> (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti)
16:48:36 <asiekierka> pcc-libs is on the FTP too, but i'll try cvs
16:49:14 <elliott> asiekierka: you make installed it?
16:49:27 <ais523> did it at least install in /usr/local?
16:49:39 <elliott> no, i don't hate you, it's just i laugh at stupid decisions
16:49:51 <asiekierka> elliott: i only installed linux last week, keep it a little bit easier
16:49:54 <ais523> asiekierka: it's not too hard to uninstall, then; you just need to rm -r all the directory trees it created
16:50:04 <ais523> which is easier if you know where they actually are
16:50:05 <elliott> Or just rm -rf /usr/local if you haven't installed anything there before.
16:50:29 <ais523> look to see if there's a make uninstall in the makefile
16:50:32 <elliott> use --prefix=/opt/foo in future, or checkinstall
16:50:35 <ais523> sometimes it even actually works
16:50:39 <elliott> ais523: they're BSD guys. they're luddites
16:50:56 <ais523> (C-INTERCAL's does, although it doesn't uninstall previous versions)
16:52:00 <elliott> ais523: you /must/ switch C-INTERCAL to scapegoat as soon as it's stable enough, I want to see esr's reaction
16:52:28 <elliott> because everything esr has said so far re: C-INTERCAL has been amusing
16:53:14 <ais523> /usr/local install isn't ridiculously bad; it's comparable to the situation on Windows
16:53:25 <elliott> ais523: windows programs all have uninstallers
16:53:31 <ais523> elliott: yes, but they generally don't work
16:53:37 <elliott> ais523: they work better than nothing :)
16:54:48 <ais523> the situation with Norton is ridiculous; it comes with an uninstaller that doesn't work, but you can download an uninstaller that does from the company website
16:55:04 <elliott> anyway, "isn't ridiculously bad; comparable to Windows" is a strange thing to say
16:55:17 <ais523> elliott: you've used Windows, you know it isn't completely awful
16:55:26 <ais523> atm I consider it usable but suboptimal and a pain to develop for
16:55:30 <elliott> ais523: well, no, but its /architecture/ is terrible
16:55:39 <ais523> terrible and improving
16:55:50 <elliott> The Old New Thing can convince anyone of that
16:56:01 <ais523> I probably should, it's a good blog
16:56:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti)
16:56:25 <Vorpal> ais523, you are joking right? It isn't some sort of OCD?
16:56:35 <elliott> ais523: here's something you won't believe
16:56:36 <Vorpal> (you never know with people of this channel)
16:56:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I am aware you can get rid of typos more easily than that
16:56:46 <elliott> ais523: as far as I can tell, Raymond Chen wrote Linux 2.0's configuration interface bash script
16:56:58 <elliott> ais523: Raymond Chen, of Old New Thing. *While working at Microsoft.*
16:57:07 <ais523> I was just in a mood to give this one a home
16:57:08 <Vorpal> ais523, well yes. But would you use the other way?
16:57:15 <elliott> ais523: it was credited to a Raymond Chen, it had an @microsoft.com email, and IIRC googling the email vaguely pointed me in his direction.
16:57:32 <ais523> that's not completely implausible
16:57:32 <elliott> ais523: It was a *bash shell script*. Used for configuring Linux 2.0.
16:57:39 <elliott> Not completely, but awesome!
16:57:51 <elliott> ais523: (it's a horrific script -- it reads answers from /dev/tty, so you can't pipe less in)
16:58:03 <asiekierka> where can i find the way to download pcc-libs via cvs
16:58:16 <elliott> http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/downloads/
16:58:18 <elliott> check out the pcc-libs module
16:58:28 <ais523> elliott: hey, C-INTERCAL reads from /dev/tty
16:58:28 <elliott> same pserver as listed there
16:58:44 <ais523> because the code logic completely lost track of stdin after a while
16:58:51 <ais523> and I got lost trying to figure out where it had got to
16:59:05 <ais523> just for the debugger, which makes sense reading from the tty anyway
16:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, for unknown reason it reassigned stdout and stdin a lot iirc
16:59:39 <Vorpal> ais523, but what if you want to use the debugger from inside an editor. Like gdb-mode for emacs or similar?
17:00:04 <ais523> although that's far from optimal
17:00:16 <ais523> also, doesn't Emacs simulate /dev/tty anyway in shell-mode?
17:00:17 <asiekierka> elliott: /usr/include//signal.h:349: error: cannot find 'stddef.h'
17:00:24 <ais523> you can just use a pty
17:00:28 <Vorpal> ais523, perhaps. I haven't checked how gdb mode work or such
17:00:32 <elliott> asiekierka: did you make install pcc-libs?
17:00:35 <ais523> sorry, I'm vaguely annoyed at the moment because the burglar alarm's gone off again
17:00:46 <asiekierka> elliott: that happens while compiling pcc-libs
17:00:50 <Vorpal> ais523, at university?
17:00:52 <elliott> ais523: comint doesn't simulate /dev/tty, i don't _think_
17:00:59 <elliott> asiekierka: it's meant to use gcc
17:01:02 <elliott> you set CC=pcc or something
17:01:11 <elliott> asiekierka: failing that, "make clean; CC=gcc ./configure"
17:01:27 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, can't it self-host?
17:01:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Not when you don't have a working compiler yet :-P
17:01:42 <elliott> pcc-libs is the other half to pcc on Linux.
17:01:58 <elliott> asiekierka: you should have compiled pcc second, I don't know what to do; it should work with CC=gcc
17:02:02 <elliott> if it doesn't you did something really weird
17:02:07 <asiekierka> elliott: it does not have a check for CC anywhere
17:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, though iirc gcc insists on self-hosting itself when compiling with any other compilser
17:02:17 <elliott> ./configure listens to CC.
17:02:22 <asiekierka> i tried searching the entire ./configure to CC
17:02:43 <Vorpal> is that autoconf configure?
17:02:52 <elliott> so it probably does some random shit.
17:02:55 <elliott> rather than say CC directly.
17:03:00 <ais523> Vorpal: it does that for two reasons: half of it's written in gcc extensions, and as a check (it compares gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc to gcc compiled with gcc compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER to verify they're identical)
17:03:22 <elliott> ais523: that's far too many recursions
17:03:32 <ais523> elliott: any fewer and you wouldn't expect the binaries to match
17:03:32 <asiekierka> removed /usr/local/bin/pcc (will reinstall it)
17:03:42 <asiekierka> it does check for pcc hardcoded, if it doesnt find it only then it uses gcc
17:03:43 <elliott> ais523: gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X
17:03:58 <elliott> ais523: that's two less recursions than yours
17:04:15 <elliott> and that only requires three compilations
17:04:26 <Vorpal> ais523, but what about stuff like debug info. Wouldn't you expect them to differ (different paths in the debug info)?
17:04:26 <elliott> ais523: and since gcc only goes up to stage3, I *doubt* it does what you said
17:04:52 <ais523> elliott: no, that's what I said
17:04:54 <ais523> just the other way round
17:04:58 <Vorpal> elliott, actually he got the count right
17:05:01 <asiekierka> i'll try to recompile pcc-libs with pcc now
17:05:06 <elliott> ais523: oh, you used "with" to separate them both
17:05:20 <Vorpal> elliott, no he used "to"
17:05:20 <elliott> ais523: thus making your sentence completely unparsable
17:05:29 <elliott> i'm not looking at that sentence again, it hurts me
17:06:01 <asiekierka> well with PCC-compiled libs it is faster
17:06:19 <elliott> asiekierka: now do them all again with uClibc/dietlibc (compilers bootstrapped with same)
17:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, well here I added markup, look if you want, if not then don't: "it compares (gcc [3] compiled with gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1]) to (gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1] compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER) to verify they're identical"
17:06:44 <elliott> you need to patch both dietlibc and pcc to get them working together, but i can't give you them, they're on the other box.
17:07:01 <Vorpal> elliott, the number are the stage numbers
17:07:04 <elliott> ais523: it's a lot easier if you have a C interpreter
17:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, does any exist?
17:07:17 <elliott> ais523: gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted
17:07:20 <elliott> Vorpal: *do, and I thnk so
17:07:34 <elliott> Ch supports the 1999 ISO C Standard (C99) and C++ classes. It is superset of C with C++ classes. C99 major features such as complex numbers, variable length arrays (VLAs), IEEE-754 floating-point arithmetic and generic mathematical functions are supported. Wide characters in Addendum 1 for C90 is also supported.
17:07:56 <ais523> elliott: that's not really much easier, you just replaced "compiled with" with "interpreted with", then "interpreted with" with an underscore
17:08:00 <elliott> asiekierka: pcc/dietlibc can produce statically-linked executables of 4K in size
17:08:02 <Vorpal> elliott, complex numbers. heh nice
17:08:14 <Vorpal> elliott, that is one of the features I would expect to be unsupported
17:08:15 <elliott> asiekierka: (statically linking with glibc = 100K+ usually)
17:08:22 <elliott> Vorpal: not that hard to do, surely
17:08:45 <ais523> hmm, pcc supports all of C89 and some of C99?
17:08:46 <elliott> ais523: it's certainly faster to do, probably
17:08:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but if you look at C99 compilers it is one of the last features to get done it seems.
17:08:50 <elliott> since gcc takes so long to compile
17:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, (based on clang and gcc development history)
17:09:18 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly because few people use it?
17:10:02 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/fJ2CVjjj <- added one more important info
17:10:27 <elliott> most effort put into biased benchmarks evar
17:10:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> since gcc takes so long to compile <-- wouldn't it take ages to interpret as well?
17:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: well you'd only hit the codepaths that are actually used to compile gcc.
17:10:59 <elliott> ok it'd be very slow still :)
17:11:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well a coverage analysis might be interesting here.
17:11:14 <elliott> bash will just be sleeping while it runs
17:11:22 <Vorpal> but, I'm not going to try that on gcc bootstrap
17:12:11 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f3llk/dear_mojang_different_colored_wood_and_stairs/c1d2hz4?context=2 I approve
17:12:41 <asiekierka> how to switch ubuntu to use dietlibc and not glibc
17:12:51 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's designed for that sort of customization
17:13:04 <ais523> the purpose of Ubuntu isn't really extreme tinkering
17:13:20 <ais523> (does even gentoo let you do that switch easily?)
17:13:23 <Vorpal> hey even gentoo doesn't support that sort of stuff iirc
17:13:37 <asiekierka> according to my biased benchmark, if you care about size you should use PCC (it has the performance of GCC but a far smaller size)
17:13:47 <asiekierka> if you care about speed, use Clang (the files are not the biggest either)
17:14:06 <elliott> asiekierka: you just install dietlibc in another prefix.
17:14:10 <elliott> and then compile with /opt/bin/diet gcc ...
17:14:20 <ais523> asiekierka: what optimization options are you using?
17:14:20 <elliott> also, pcc's performance is lower than gcc.
17:14:25 <elliott> and clang's runtime performance is often slower than gcc
17:14:29 <elliott> (but it is always faster at compiling)
17:14:50 <ais523> asiekierka: oh, you're talking about compilation speed, not the speed of the resulting program?
17:15:03 <ais523> also, -Os is often better for speed of the resulting program due to cache effects
17:15:13 <Vorpal> asiekierka, you need each -O then. -Os can be faster. And is certainly smaller
17:15:20 <Vorpal> asiekierka, so do them all, well not -O1 I guess
17:15:37 <Vorpal> and equiv ones for other compilers
17:15:53 <ais523> comparing unoptimized compiler output for speed is unlikely to be too helpful...
17:16:08 <elliott> LOL, you used no optimisation options?
17:16:18 <elliott> asiekierka: for a benchmark like this you want -O2
17:16:21 <asiekierka> elliott stop going all fail over me, that's really annoying
17:16:25 <elliott> since it's performance-heavy
17:16:32 <elliott> asiekierka: well, in my defence, you are failing. very hard.
17:16:47 <asiekierka> and not go LOL FAIL BWAHAHAHAHA WHAT A NOOB
17:16:58 <asiekierka> as that's how i see your actions every 30 seconds
17:17:22 <elliott> Vorpal: do two torches right after each other mean "end of line" in your exploration-marking system?
17:17:27 <elliott> I'm trying to get back to spawn from (100,100)
17:17:31 <elliott> and I've been following your torches
17:17:37 <asiekierka> TCC seems to have no optimization options
17:17:37 <elliott> and there are two right after each other and then none that I can see
17:17:45 <elliott> asiekierka: it has -O IIRC
17:18:05 <elliott> Vorpal: oh wait found the next one
17:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, no. It depends on context
17:18:12 <Vorpal> elliott, is it underground?
17:18:12 <elliott> asiekierka: i believe it is on by default.
17:18:22 <Vorpal> elliott, what, then I have no idea :P
17:18:26 <Vorpal> elliott, probably marking something
17:18:35 <elliott> Vorpal: there ain't shit there but more torches
17:18:41 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe there is some cool scenery around?
17:18:43 <elliott> it's vaguely pretty i guess
17:18:51 <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:18:57 <Vorpal> elliott, which direction do you move
17:19:09 <elliott> asiekierka: THOSE OVERRIDE EACH OTHER
17:19:14 <Vorpal> elliott, is this one of the east or west trails?
17:19:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I might be going the wrong way
17:19:29 <elliott> asiekierka: it was a list.
17:19:34 <Vorpal> asiekierka, the last one takes effect
17:19:44 <Vorpal> asiekierka, it was trying each one. Separately
17:19:45 <asiekierka> I know a song that will annoy everyoneeeeeee
17:19:51 <asiekierka> it's called fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, YOU FAAAIL
17:19:58 <ais523> `addquote <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:20:02 <elliott> Vorpal: you need to place more torches, cheapskate
17:20:08 <elliott> (ais523: talking about real life obviously)
17:20:16 <elliott> i can't follow your trails :D
17:20:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't get on atm
17:20:16 <ais523> elliott: oh, I don't mind
17:20:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I will not minecraft on that
17:20:39 <Vorpal> the connection is just too bad
17:20:42 <elliott> Oklopol minecrafts on a 3g stick, i bet it's normally on edge
17:20:52 <elliott> ais523: it's... slightly addictive
17:21:01 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, normally you get 3G in scandinavia :P
17:21:08 <asiekierka> Os gives 1400000 KFlops (compared to 400000 pre-optimization)
17:21:23 <elliott> #esoteric-minecraft anyone?
17:21:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway. tell me which direction compared to spawn
17:21:28 <elliott> it's probably common enough talk to get its own channel
17:21:35 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise I suspect it is someone else who placed that
17:22:09 <HackEgo> 267) <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:22:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll add him as an op.
17:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, and resign yourself?
17:22:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Are you afraid I'll ban you and then you'll die or something?
17:23:16 <elliott> Vorpal: There, given fizzie enough flags that he can remove my privileges if he wants, but I doubt he will.
17:23:21 <Vorpal> elliott, no I'm not "afraid". I'm just suspecting you will abuse the op at some point
17:23:26 <Vorpal> like whenever we two disagree
17:23:41 <elliott> If fizzie has ops he can trivially remove any ban I place.
17:24:01 <Vorpal> elliott, kickban probably. One way to resolve this would be to make me op as well. I wouldn't abuse it (I'm not you)
17:24:20 <elliott> tl;dr <Vorpal> YOU'RE EVIL AND IMMATURE, SO OP ME NOW!!!!!!!!!
17:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, but I do not trust you to be a balanced person.
17:24:55 <asiekierka> i'm now re-benchmarking every compiler (except tcc which lacks optimization options)
17:25:14 <Vorpal> ais523, not every compiler has -Os, and clang has more than -O3 iirc
17:25:27 <elliott> hey ais523, did you know that I'm unbalanced
17:25:34 <ais523> Vorpal: why are you pinging me with that, I'm not surprised at all
17:25:39 <ais523> elliott: in what sense?
17:25:44 <elliott> ais523: I dunno, ask Vorpal
17:25:47 <ais523> oh, in the winning an insult match sense
17:26:05 <Vorpal> ais523, not really. I'm just describing him
17:26:09 <asiekierka> the point is i won't do a separate benchmark for 1 compiler
17:26:32 <asiekierka> i will later organize the average KFlops results into an array
17:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and compare yourself to ais523. Who of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry?
17:26:41 <elliott> Vorpal: do you realise that for a very long time, the vast majority of immaturity in this channel has come from you saying stupid shit and then justifying it based on me being immature?
17:27:09 <ais523> selecting from a list is always which, regardless of what the list contents are
17:27:10 <elliott> ais523: please tell vorpal to shut up, he doesn't listen to me...
17:27:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I listen to you when you say sensible things.
17:27:57 <asiekierka> ais523: please tell elliott to try to be more balanced
17:27:59 <ais523> elliott: Vorpal: this argument's unlikely to be productive in any case
17:28:09 <elliott> Vorpal: so, question, "revoke your ops right now because you're an unbalanced individual" is sensible?
17:28:11 <ais523> so there's not much point in continuing it
17:28:27 <ais523> unless you just like arguments for the sake of arguing, I suppose
17:28:31 <ais523> they can be fun to watch sometimes
17:29:33 <elliott> ais523: I'm just trying to get the off-topic Minecraft stuff in another channel to free up #esoteric some more, and Vorpal is refusing to use it unless I revoke my op privileges, because I'm "unbalanced" and I will kickban him or something, despite the fact that fizzie is also an op. While undoubtedly he's going to come back with his own version of events in reply to you like it's some sort of challenge to get ais to take your side, I really just
17:29:33 <elliott> want him to admit that he's a fuckface for saying that.
17:29:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it is sensible to carefully suggest handing over that channel to fizzie. If that is what you meant.
17:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: do you not quite grasp how insulting what you said was?
17:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps we put different weights on the word "unbalanced"?
17:31:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I ask again to compare yourself to ais.
17:31:08 <asiekierka> If you don't stop immediately i will quit this channel and stop giving elliott any reason to bother/troll/anger you
17:31:22 <elliott> asiekierka: that's really just incentive for me to keep going, isn't it...
17:31:30 <Vorpal> elliott, again: Compare yourself to ais523. Which of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry?
17:31:31 <elliott> I'm not trying to win anything, I just want an apology from Vorpal.
17:31:44 <ais523> Vorpal: that I never get visibly angry is not really evidence of anything
17:31:51 <ais523> I do get angry from time ot time
17:32:12 <Vorpal> ais523, well, indeed, but the question is if you are in control of the anger or if you react like elliott.
17:32:14 <ais523> sometimes I come on here, furious at events in RL, and state that I'm angry because people couldn't tell otherwise
17:32:27 <ais523> (because when RL makes me angry, it isn't #esoteric's fault)
17:32:38 <Vorpal> ais523, even when you are angry, you do seem a rather calm.
17:32:45 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, I'm an unstable wreck of an individual who kickbans people based on random whims and then immediately deops everyone else so that nobody can undo my injustice, and I shouldn't be allowed in polite society.
17:32:58 <elliott> having just come above surface from a fucking year of people treating me like I'm insane:
17:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, now that is a strawman.
17:33:04 <ais523> Vorpal: looking calm and being calm are different things
17:33:08 <elliott> You are on ignore, and are never coming off.
17:33:18 <Vorpal> elliott, and I never said "wreck"
17:33:27 <ais523> Vorpal: that's unlikely to help...
17:33:34 <ais523> I think you've been missing the point for the past 10 minutes
17:33:41 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed. And I think this actually proved my point.
17:34:26 <Vorpal> yes, annoyed at my suggestion: of course. But he overreacted wildly.
17:35:07 <asiekierka> Vorpal - elliott behaves like me 3 years ago
17:35:57 <Vorpal> asiekierka, well, to be honest, you still are annoying to some degree. Though quite a bit less than before.
17:36:24 <asiekierka> also my frequent pasting of things which are useless
17:37:10 <Vorpal> ais523, and... not reading those comma :P
17:37:39 <asiekierka> (because of lack of knowledge mostly, but still)
17:40:06 <Vorpal> well, that's all today iirc
17:45:01 <Vorpal> ineiros, you really need to do something about your connection
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17:57:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but denies banning accusers. More at 11..
17:57:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but also denies banning accusers. More at 11..
17:57:49 -!- elliott has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:58:18 <oerjan> SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY
17:58:40 <oerjan> ...why did you censor the topic then
17:59:12 <elliott> Because it's only going to make things more off-topic and stupid?
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17:59:21 <asiekierka> anyone wants a free google adwords promotional coupon code
18:00:07 <Vorpal> <oerjan> SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY <-- that is an understatement :)
18:00:33 <oerjan> elliott: well you also removed the denial of your wheat-based parentage, so i'll assume that means you've finally admitted it
18:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, this is the year of Duke Nukem Forever's announced release.
18:07:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and last year we made first contact! oh wait...
18:08:29 <oerjan> well anyway it's better than back in '84 when we were under that oppressive dictatorship
18:08:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, as in, "the people making it have stated in no uncertain terms that it is going to be released in the second quarter of the year"
18:09:36 <oerjan> the signs of the end times are here
18:11:58 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and Perl 6 is basically complete too, it's usable right now
18:12:24 <elliott> ais523: and duke nukem forever is written in it!
18:12:39 <elliott> ais523: that's why it's taken so long to release, they had to wait for the language to exist first
18:12:44 <ais523> I knew I was missing one, just couldn't remember what it was
18:14:21 <ais523> what would formally verifying a computer game even mean?
18:16:25 <elliott> ais523: making sure it's FUN
18:16:33 <elliott> anyone who disagrees is obviously irrational
18:17:50 <fizzie> Yeah, I didn't remove the "bad things might happen if you make it resizable" when I pushed the "handle resize events" change, since I'm not entirely sure it actually works.
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18:19:50 <nooga> i'm playing with DrScheme because i like colorful pictures
18:20:07 <nooga> stepping through s-exps in runtime
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18:30:39 <elliott> Sgeo: how did you find that i did stuff with factor, anyway?
18:33:01 <elliott> Oh, that would indeed work.
18:33:30 <elliott> My commit had a last-minute typo, hehe... quite embarrassing when slava told me it was wrong just from looking at it.
18:34:31 <ais523> elliott: my gitorious login still has that cyclexa thing on it
18:34:39 <ais523> together with intercal, and nethack-tas-tools
18:34:56 <elliott> ais523: btw, as far as i can tell, github's TOS was redone
18:35:00 <elliott> and now is perfectly benign
18:35:08 <ais523> hmm, I'm reasonably active on both gitorious and patch-tag now
18:35:21 <elliott> but patch-tag is basically dead afaik
18:35:48 <ais523> who cares if it's basically dead, it hosts repos
18:36:05 <ais523> I never really understood the repo-host-as-a-social-network thing
18:36:09 <elliott> Sgeo either hates or loves darcsden because it's ran by the person who does atomo
18:36:16 <elliott> ais523: github just uses the social language as marketing
18:36:22 <elliott> ais523: it's really a "collaborative network"
18:36:33 <ais523> activity on the site as a whole doesn't matter, even if you were the site's only user it wouldn't matter as long as you can push and other people can pull
18:36:40 <elliott> ais523: the many-forks-that-get-merged-into-one model is good for a lot of projects
18:36:42 <ais523> and you can add other people to push
18:36:48 <elliott> ais523: and things like pull requests _are_ important for that
18:37:00 <ais523> elliott: yes, but why can't people just register on the site to add one?
18:37:10 <elliott> ais523: plenty of people just have github repos as a mirror of git
18:37:14 <ais523> hmm, do these sites let you add a pull request from unrelated sites?
18:37:19 <elliott> ais523: anyway, yes, it could do with more decentralisation, but that isn't much of a viable business model
18:37:22 <elliott> and no, because there's no protocol for it
18:37:37 <elliott> ais523: you don't know what a pull request is
18:37:44 <elliott> ais523: it only includes certain commits
18:37:57 <ais523> make a branch, then, containing only those commits?
18:38:03 <elliott> ais523: I'm not saying this is how it should be, just that github is more useful than plain git for a certain model of development
18:38:24 <ais523> elliott: I agree that it might be, but I'm saying that the reasons why it is are easily genericisable
18:38:35 <elliott> sure, but they haven't been :)
18:38:59 <elliott> ais523: darcs solves this by using email
18:39:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see /msg
18:39:19 <ais523> elliott: do you have opinions on Google removing H.264 support from <video> on Chrome?
18:39:30 <ais523> I think it's big news but am unsure what opinion to have on it
18:39:42 <Vorpal> ais523, on what grounds did they do that?
18:40:01 <ais523> Vorpal: stated, or actual?
18:40:08 <elliott> ais523: it's the Right Thing, surely, but will almost certainly backfire, and cause more people to use Flash; WebM is /not/ a viable H.264 replacement, really, nothing is right now; but using H.264 is Wrong and basically either expensive or illegal
18:40:09 <ais523> stated grounds are probably the same as Firefox's
18:40:19 <Vorpal> ais523, and those grounds are?
18:40:33 <elliott> ais523: in my opinion, the pragmatic-but-moral thing to do would be to keep H.264 in until <video> becomes very popular
18:40:36 <elliott> ais523: and then somehow remove it
18:40:42 <elliott> since everyone would probably use H.264
18:41:01 <ais523> there are various things you have to wonder about
18:41:07 <ais523> such as who they're trying to get leverage against
18:41:07 <elliott> ais523: therefore, I suggest, erm, holding the H.264 committee hostage until they grant an irrevocable, arbitrary-use license?
18:41:12 <ais523> and YouTube's role in all this
18:41:21 <elliott> ais523: youtube have alreayd stated they're going to keep using flash forever
18:41:26 <elliott> so they can show ads, and also to protect content
18:41:33 <elliott> (they have a rental service now...)
18:41:46 <ais523> yep, but they did persuade Adobe to add WebM support to Flash
18:41:47 <elliott> (and apparently they _must_ use some copy protection protocol thing, or nobody would let them do it)
18:41:55 <ais523> elliott: it's simple enough to explain
18:42:05 <ais523> all that the content providers really care about is that they're trying to stop piracy
18:42:14 <ais523> not that the attempt to stop piracy actually works
18:42:28 <Vorpal> ais523, that's illogical
18:42:29 <ais523> well, some of them care about that, but I don't think YouTube does
18:42:38 <ais523> they're just trying to look like they made the effort in order to impress other people
18:43:57 <j-invariant> it's right in the middle of this isolated part of the desert which happens to have lava around it
18:44:05 <ais523> oh, I assumed you meant web portal, and was confused
18:44:10 <ais523> as to why you'd linked a png file
18:44:15 <ais523> rather than the site itself
18:45:29 <Vorpal> j-invariant, that looks strange. Is there a rendering bug towards the camera? above where the water goes under the obsidain
18:46:12 <elliott> j-invariant: i am suspecting you had some kind of obsidian accident there
18:46:13 <Vorpal> j-invariant, either that or an optical illusion
18:46:27 <elliott> also, pick up that cobble quick aieeeee
18:47:52 <ais523> elliott: thanks for reminding me about The Old New Thing; I'm currently reading the bit about why Windows 95 contained 32-bit NOPs
18:48:23 <ais523> elliott: err, it's not normally /you/ who says that..
18:48:38 <elliott> ais523: I was figuring since you were evidently unconscious before I'd be helpful.
18:48:47 <elliott> ais523: yes, but so does mentioning your name in here, and you missed that before :)
18:49:11 <ais523> it seems that some old versions of the 386 were buggy when mixing 16-bit and 32-bit instructions
18:49:50 <ais523> and using a 32-bit NOP was how they got around the problem
18:49:56 <impomatic> ais523: would it be possible to upload your BF Joust interpreter elsewhere? pastebin.ca died a while ago.
18:49:56 <ais523> (it's a regular NOP with a 32-bit length modifier)
18:50:07 <ais523> impomatic: I think I probably still have it
18:50:09 <ais523> where should I put it?
18:51:18 <ais523> hmm, I put it at http://sprunge.us/QiQO?perl
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18:52:23 <elliott> ais523: I wonder why he wants it when egojoust is better :)
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18:52:54 <impomatic> Grrrr... Chatzilla always crashes when I click a link :-(
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18:55:17 <ais523> impomatic: you can probably remove the ?perl to get it raw
18:55:44 <ais523> egojoust is a better interp, btw, so there isn't a huge reason to want to use mine other than historical curiosity
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18:58:16 <impomatic> Is the code for egojoust available?
18:58:16 <td123> hi, does the brainfuck environment assume an infinite memory with a beginning or not? for instance, is < possible as the first command
18:59:11 <elliott> td123: It's not specified, but usually "no".
18:59:34 <elliott> td123: The "standard" brainfuck is a right-infinite (not left; i.e. there is a cell 0) tape, of 8-bit unsigned wrapping values.
19:00:04 <ais523> td123: it depends on the interpreter, but going left past the start is generally considered nonportable at best, and hardly any interps let you do it
19:00:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see that /msg!
19:00:14 <ais523> the language's actual definition doesn't say
19:00:57 <td123> the languages definition needs to be amended :)
19:01:18 <elliott> td123: no it doesn't, it basically has none
19:01:30 <ais523> a standard bf would be really useful
19:01:35 <elliott> i doubt urban müller really cares at this point :)
19:01:39 <ais523> that's what eso-std.org was theoretically for until it completely collapsed
19:01:58 <td123> then there needs to be a standard definition created
19:02:38 <elliott> td123: except it ends up either stating the obvious, or being useless
19:02:42 <ais523> anyway, you can talk about what "good" BF interps do most frequently: left-bounded, right-infinite, 8-bit wrapping
19:02:46 <ais523> the major point of contention is EOF
19:02:56 <td123> elliott: well, stuff like this should be in the standard
19:03:51 -!- td123 has left (?).
19:03:52 <ais523> I'd personally suggest unchanged-on-EOF if you're planning to write an interp, as it's easy to make programs portable to both that and one of the other EOF conventions
19:04:13 <ais523> it's like me going into #tcl or whatever to ask one question
19:04:34 <ais523> td123 was doing exactly that, with exactly the right channel, but with a BF question
19:04:43 <ais523> impomatic: oh, missed your comment earlier; I have a copy, at least, it's open-source
19:05:15 <elliott> impomatic: http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/browser/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/
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19:05:21 <elliott> let me get you a better link
19:05:33 <impomatic> There's a new version of TclRobots in progress http://tclrobots.org
19:05:34 <ais523> elliott: I was trying to debug a program written in TCL
19:05:44 <ais523> that someone else had written
19:05:50 <ais523> and TCL is definitely an acronym
19:05:56 <ais523> unless it's a really good backronym
19:05:57 -!- augur has joined.
19:05:59 <elliott> impomatic: here's a better link:
19:06:04 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it is written Tcl
19:06:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:06:52 <ais523> I don't know how to get a raw version from trac
19:07:13 <ais523> although I've found the syntax-highlighted source, and I'm sure impomatic could remove the line numbers if necessary
19:07:28 <elliott> impomatic: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/
19:07:34 <elliott> impomatic: egojoust.c is the one you want, report.c will also be useful
19:07:48 <ais523> ah, found it: http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/export/115%3A0fe16032eb2b/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/egojoust.c
19:08:01 <ais523> hmm, and we both found different links
19:08:06 <ais523> impomatic: there it is, anyway
19:08:22 <ais523> and no, I don't have elliott on ignore, I was just trying to do the same thing in parallel
19:08:56 <elliott> ais523: your link might be from an older revision
19:09:00 <elliott> mine always points to the latest
19:10:15 <Gregor> Well, elliott answered before I got back, that was easy :P
19:10:23 <Gregor> impomatic: If you make improvements, gimme a bundle.
19:10:30 <ais523> elliott: mine was from the latest
19:10:38 <elliott> ais523: but what if gregor commits right now?
19:11:23 <elliott> fizzie: Does //save only work once or something?
19:11:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:12:53 <fizzie> It can be a bit brittle.
19:13:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
19:14:31 <elliott> fizzie: Do you flush the socket after the first informational message?
19:14:36 <elliott> They seem to come at the same time.
19:15:47 <elliott> fizzie: Ha, mcmap's output is of a very similar format to the Minecraft server's.
19:16:08 <fizzie> I don't do any explicit TCP queue hinting, I just send() each packet separately.
19:16:37 <Sgeo> I suppose it's not known that Aurora is not malware, is it?
19:17:02 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f3vls/im_an_indie_game_author_and_today_im_releasing_my/
19:17:23 <elliott> Considering people in the comments are saying it's a good game, I very much doubt it.
19:18:21 <ais523> a good game can contain malware
19:19:35 <elliott> I doubt an indie dev would be both a good game-maker and resort to malware.
19:20:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:25:43 <elliott> fizzie: Wow, the server software really doesn't like it when you explode a lot of TNT.
19:31:02 <olsner> meh, stop trying to talk to me in the mornings so the line disappears from the scrollback before I get home
19:33:08 <fizzie> Anyhoo, what did I hear about there being a separate channel?
19:33:11 -!- acetoline has joined.
19:33:21 <oerjan> olsner: the logs are thataway
19:33:35 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal won't use it because I only opped you with founder privileges and didn't deop myself, and I'm unstable or something.
19:33:45 <olsner> oerjan: yah, have everything logged locally as well
19:33:47 <elliott> So actually come to think of it, it's a wonderful channel to use.
19:33:54 <elliott> fizzie: #esoteric-mincraft
19:34:02 <olsner> Jan 17 16:41:14 <elliott>19:14:41 <olsner> hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
19:34:03 <olsner> Jan 17 16:41:20 <elliott>olsner: ENHAAAAAANCED CWEEEEEEEEEEB
19:34:21 <olsner> cweb is now pronounced shweeeeeeb
19:34:37 <ais523> elliott: I had someone in an unrelated channel a while ago ask me if CLCLC-INTERCAL was the current version
19:34:45 <ais523> based on the info on the wiki
19:35:05 <olsner> oerjan: No. That makes no sense.
19:35:09 <ais523> I replied that it was zzo38, and someone else in the channel actually knew what I meant
19:36:21 <elliott> I know he's in other places, but I wouldn't expect them to overlap
19:36:33 <variable> Custom graphics programming sucks
19:36:48 <ais523> and zzo38's all over the place, and is obviously memorable when he turns up anywhere
19:37:22 <elliott> ais523: is he all over the place?
19:37:49 <oerjan> olsner: everything makes sense with bacon!
19:37:59 <ais523> elliott: several forums, at least
19:38:15 <elliott> I know he used to spell things insanely
19:39:06 <olsner> oerjan: oh! you meant with *bacon*?
19:39:11 <olsner> then it makes perfect sense
19:39:16 -!- impomatic has left (?).
19:39:24 <variable> elliott, does this channel give cloaks?
19:40:16 <Gregor> In the distant past I recall trying to get that together, but nobody cared :P
19:40:28 <ais523> variable: I don't think so
19:41:20 <variable> Gregor, I just want a non-unaffiliated cloak :-}
19:41:29 -!- augur has changed nick to VoiceOver.
19:41:37 -!- VoiceOver has changed nick to sugur.
19:41:39 <Gregor> I'm happy with no cloak.
19:41:42 <Gregor> 'cuz my hostname RULES.
19:41:47 <Gregor> It rocks the proverbial casbah.
19:42:00 <variable> Gregor, I need monies to get a hostname with RDNS :-(
19:42:21 <Sgeo> I'd still love to see a Minecart network for gathering the lava for the cube
19:43:39 <Gregor> Why'd the topic turn all lamesauce.
19:45:14 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official Victims of Esoteric Topics in Computing Support Channel | Using this doll, tell us where BrainFucked you | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:45:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official Victims of Esoteric Topics in Computing Anonymous support channel | Using this doll, tell us where BrainFucked you | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:46:58 <Gregor> "Official" is an adjective describing the channel.
19:47:41 <oerjan> Gregor: elliott had certain ...issues... with the previous topic
19:47:59 <Gregor> Mmmm. His Weetabix dad didn't like it.
19:48:12 <elliott> I'm fine with the Weetabix topic. :p
19:48:28 <Gregor> Oh, then I guess I missed some topic changes :P
19:48:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Aah, stop being the omnipresent fact-device, is creepy!
19:48:46 -!- cheater- has joined.
19:49:20 -!- ais523 has changed nick to Guest09438.
19:50:50 -!- sugur has changed nick to augur.
19:50:57 <Guest09438> hey, you lot, you should all start being anonymous!
19:51:03 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:51:14 <Gregor> augur: I preferred your previous nick.
19:51:16 <elliott> Guest09438: wow, I /predicted/ you were going to justify that name change based on it being an anonymous support channel
19:51:18 <elliott> just from seeing my tab title change
19:51:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal won't use it because I only opped you with founder privileges and didn't deop myself, and I'm unstable or something. <-- you mean that you tend to easily get into a rage and overreact. Which is all that I said and implied.
19:52:17 <Guest09438> elliott: that's like coppro predicting my message to Agora saying "I object" based solely on the headers
19:54:08 <oerjan> I prepositional phrase
19:54:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:54:23 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
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20:00:06 <Sgeo> Ioke's ... specs thing (that's what it's called in Scala, don't know what it's called in Ioke) provides automatically generated documentation
20:02:03 <cheater-> http://www.thinq.co.uk/2011/1/17/man-tunnels-gamestop-steals-games/
20:02:19 <cheater-> and you just know that it's nothing more than a minecraft marketing hoax
20:02:32 <Sgeo> http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/ISpec looks too much like English at first glance
20:02:48 <cheater-> obviously he wasn't using a diamond pickaxe though
20:05:56 <Sgeo> "The words "be" and "have" are ignored in the expectations. They are so called fluff words - that are only there to make it more readable."
20:06:00 <Sgeo> Ah, that makes sense, then
20:10:11 <ais523> <Raymond Chen> I later learned that the Windows NT folks do try to keep the numerical values of process ID from getting too big. Earlier this century, the kernel team experimented with letting the numbers get really huge, in order to reduce the rate at which process IDs get reused, but they had to go back to small numbers, not for any technical reasons, but because people complained that the large process IDs looked ugly in Task Manager. (One
20:10:12 <ais523> customer even asked if something was wrong with his computer.)
20:10:38 <ais523> I get the impression that some Microsoft customers are really stupid (although that's not the fault of the company, and probably true for any large company)
20:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, the reason for that is that Microsoft have market dominance and most people are idiots.
20:12:45 <Ilari> Looking at APNIC stats... Very probably APNIC has already sent the request...
20:14:13 <ais523> I was discussing that at work today
20:14:41 <ais523> if the request has been sent, how long until ICANN/IANA grant it?
20:16:01 <Ilari> Lagerholm expected few days to process it... Could be faster, nobody knows as RIRs don't announce requests.
20:16:34 <ais523> so by next week, we're out of /8s?
20:17:08 <Ilari> I don't see IANA pool to stand even this week.
20:20:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:23:27 <Ilari> APNIC extended delegated file says 30 260 992 IPs available (1.804x/8)
20:23:54 <Ilari> The bar graph says 1.82x/8
20:28:58 <Sgeo> What would you think of an Io-like or Ioke-like language where objects are immutable?
20:29:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well I guess I lost a painting then
20:29:29 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, it would be interesting, at least.
20:29:41 <Sgeo> http://olabini.com/blog/2010/07/preannouncing-seph/
20:30:04 <Sgeo> Oh, it's meant to go into the real-world
20:30:15 <Sgeo> Which.. yeah, it sounds more like an experimental idea really
20:30:59 <elliott> Sgeo: "go into the real-world"?
20:31:11 <Sgeo> "So the purpose of Seph is to take Ioke into the real world while retaining enough of what made Ioke a very nice language to work with."
20:32:11 <Sgeo> "As mentioned above, the module system is also not new - its in fact heavily inspired of Newspeak. Having "
20:32:16 <Sgeo> I am now in a very good mood
20:32:20 <oerjan> but it'll still be a bit of a ioke language
20:34:46 <elliott> Sgeo: "I understood that the ability to modify peers and parents in the parse tree was part of what made Ioke’s macros more powerful than Lisp macros."
20:34:51 <elliott> Holy crap, that is the worst idea I have ever heard.
20:35:46 <Sgeo> Um, I don't remember reading anything in the guide about that, tbh
20:36:22 <Sgeo> I do know you can ignore what looks like messages. method() can read the message chains sent to it and interpret them differently
20:37:07 <Sgeo> method(y 5, stuff) is a method with y as an optional argument, for instance
20:40:35 <j-invariant> mmodify the parents of a parse tree LOL whatnext
20:41:27 <Sgeo> Point me in the guide where it teaches you to do that
20:44:33 <elliott> j-invariant: macros are just functions from the contents of your entire hard drive to the new state
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20:52:13 <zzo38> Is PBM a good way to store the rendered layers of a DVI page?
20:53:32 <Sgeo> Seph looks like it's going to take a bunch of stuff from Clojure. I don't know why people hate Clojure, but is Seph taking the good stuff or the bad stuff?
20:53:48 <elliott> Why do you assume anyone has any idea what bits it is taking...
20:54:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe some of each? I don't know. Maybe different people have opinion of what things are good stuff.
20:56:40 <elliott> j-invariant: have you ever looked at http://www.ats-lang.org/? it seems like an interesting application of dependent-types
20:57:02 <Sgeo> A NEW LANGUAGE?
20:57:20 <elliott> wait i know how to turn Sgeo off
20:57:24 <elliott> Sgeo: this is quicksort: http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/MISC/quicksort_list_dats.html
20:58:09 <Sgeo> a) Why did you assume that would turn me off? b) You appear to be correct
20:58:28 <elliott> (a) ZOMG IT IS COMPLICATED HOW CAN J. RANDOM INCOMPETENT PROGRAMMER USE THIS IT CAN'T TAKE OVER THE WORLD IT SUCKS
20:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe j-invariant want to see it
20:58:59 <elliott> Sgeo: I am of course being completely misleading: you cannot write that program in almost every other language, and you can translate what most languages call a quicksort program into ATS much, much shorter than that.
20:59:05 <Vorpal> elliott, since he was walking into a cactus outside for over 10 seconds
21:00:23 <Sgeo> I remember seeing the tutorial before
21:00:25 <elliott> Sgeo: Specifically, that is a quicksort implementation that not only returns the sorted list, but also a proof that the list is sorted.
21:00:33 <elliott> You could easily translate a quicksort without verification into ATS.
21:00:49 <elliott> Sgeo: (That is, if that program compiles, then you know at compile-time that it always sorts lists correctly.)
21:01:33 <Sgeo> What if there's a bug in what you say you're trying to prove that matches a bug in the algorithm itself?
21:01:41 <Sgeo> Or is that generally unlikely to happen?
21:01:46 -!- calamari has joined.
21:01:51 <Sgeo> Or, as seems likely, am I completely clueless?
21:01:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Basically the latter. :p
21:02:02 <elliott> It is very hard to misstate simple properties.
21:02:13 <elliott> And generally getting an error to _correspond_ with an error in the program is nearly impossible.
21:02:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:02:25 <elliott> Sgeo: Basically the grounds for what you are saying are as valid for ATS as they are for, say, doubting any mathematical proof.
21:02:29 <elliott> "You could have proven the *wrong* theorem!"
21:04:26 <oerjan> "I'm sorry that's just a proof of Fermat's _second_ to last Theorem".
21:08:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, which one was that?
21:09:25 <j-invariant> 21:02 < elliott> (a) ZOMG IT IS COMPLICATED HOW CAN J. RANDOM INCOMPETENT PROGRAMMER USE THIS IT CAN'T TAKE OVER THE WORLD IT SUCKS
21:09:29 <j-invariant> 21:03 < Vorpal> elliott, I believe j-invariant want to see it
21:10:29 <oerjan> (SETF (J-RANDOM-INVARIANT X) 3)
21:11:35 <Sgeo> How does J. Random Incompetent learn a language like Java, anyway?
21:11:49 <Sgeo> Why aren't they all learning something with a simple syntax?
21:12:03 <Sgeo> Like a Lisp, or Python, or something
21:16:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:27:57 <calamari> Sgeo: eclipse interactively points out Java errors, that's pretty helpful
21:28:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:35:50 <cheater-> calamari: yes, that's called "intellisense"
21:36:11 <cheater-> it autocompletes what you're typing into the error you've been looking for, so that you don't have to go to w3schools
21:37:03 <calamari> didn't realize w3schools taught Java too
21:37:20 <cheater-> me either, i hadn't even checked either
21:38:03 <calamari> cool, I think I have the android-side of this phone-as-drawing tablet program done.. now just need the python script for xlib
21:39:13 <calamari> I already expect it to really suck, but I'm not 100% sure exactly how yet :)
21:43:18 <Ilari> Anyway, all the estimates are going to hit either zero or some processing delay tomorrow...
21:45:18 <elliott> calamari: w3schools? seriously?
21:46:25 <Sgeo> "In Ioke you can change the AST that you're currently executing, which is horrible from a performance standpoint"
21:47:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's actually easy to throw shit together in Java.
21:47:28 <pikhq> It just makes it a bit of a pain to do more complicated stuff.
21:48:39 <pikhq> Ilari: Yay, depletion.
21:48:44 <elliott> calamari: Well, w3schools is just about the worst website ever, considering that it is popular solely because of a false portrayed relation to W3C, despite the fact that it is comprised mostly of incorrect information and bad advice.
21:49:08 <calamari> elliott: I was responding to cheater-'s comment
21:49:10 <pikhq> Ilari: Oh, BTW: IANA is now sitting at *1.82* /8s.
21:49:19 <elliott> calamari: Oh. I have him on ignore.
21:49:29 <Ilari> APNIC is so low that I think they have already sent the request...
21:49:38 <pikhq> Ilari: Erm, s/IANA/APNIC/
21:49:46 <pikhq> *Surely* they've sent it by now.
21:50:43 <calamari> elliott: however, that said, I'm sure it's crap.. but there is lots of content so if you need to get stuff done quick without regard to standards, it's nice
21:51:13 <olsner> heh, the annual apnic fee is 1180x1.3^(log2(Addresses)-8)
21:51:57 <Ilari> calamari: AFAIK, not yet, but IANA depletion it is matter of hours or at most days... Not weeks.
21:53:58 -!- acetoline has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:54:06 <Ilari> Knowing about address space requests would enable computing much better estimates. But those aren't announced so no better estimate can be currently given than a few days at most...
21:54:25 -!- theechelon has joined.
21:54:35 <calamari> "The depletion of the IPv4 allocation pool has been a concern since the late 1980s..."
21:56:00 -!- theechelon has quit (Client Quit).
21:56:39 -!- acetoline has joined.
21:57:03 * Sgeo dislikes light-weight threads
22:00:15 <Ilari> At present allocation rates, APNIC would be in its last /8 in like 5 months...
22:00:49 <Ilari> And the rates can increase if run-on-the-bank scenario comes to pass...
22:02:10 <pikhq> Which it actually seems to be.
22:02:24 <pikhq> The allocation rate has definitely been ramping up.
22:03:35 <Ilari> Currently ipv4depletion shows total allocation rate of about 1.90/30days. I have seen figures as high as 1.98/30days.
22:05:08 <Ilari> That would be about 24 /8s in a year (likely transistent spike, but..)
22:06:12 <pikhq> APNIC alone has seen .62 /8s allocated this week.
22:07:00 <Ilari> Current IANA and RIR stocks combined are about 22.2x/8.
22:08:12 <Ilari> Oops (not counting reserved blocks), about 22.6 or so...
22:12:46 <Sgeo> Because they don't take advantage of multi-core processors, afaik
22:13:12 <elliott> You just have one thread-switcher for each core.
22:15:59 <Sgeo> #esoteric is never the wrong channel for Minecraft
22:16:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes it is, #esoteric-minecraft exists now.
22:17:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nice.
22:17:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:18:03 * pikhq "just" has a gigantic glass-covered quarry. Need to figure out what to do with the results.
22:18:44 <elliott> pikhq: I was about to say you should ask for the server address, but you're still a filthy pirate and therefore can't connect.
22:19:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, but it's my next purchase when I have expendable income.
22:19:24 <elliott> pikhq: Have you developed a healthy hate for Notch yet?
22:24:45 <Sgeo> Does Lapis Lazuli have a reason to exist?
22:24:50 <Sgeo> erm, I mean, blocks
22:25:06 <Sgeo> Are Lapis Lazuli blocks prettier than wool?
22:25:22 <Sgeo> dyed with Lapis Lazuli
22:25:41 * Sgeo finds that bizarre
22:27:20 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:27:28 -!- elliott has joined.
22:27:41 <Sgeo> Does a single sheep produce infinite wool?
22:31:16 <olsner> the not at all downcat
22:38:54 <Vorpal> elliott, current build system is broken. It doesn't rebuild after git pull followed by make when a few files were upgraded
22:39:17 <elliott> Vorpal: It was a bit broken before; rm -rf build and try again.
22:39:18 <Vorpal> no, cmd.c, cmd.h and main.c were upgraded
22:39:39 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you built it all in one?
22:39:43 <Vorpal> this way -j2 won't help
22:40:06 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact it doesn't build properly at all
22:40:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Sprunge the make output.
22:41:10 <Vorpal> elliott, here: http://sprunge.us/GaYX
22:41:43 <Vorpal> elliott, that looks wrong
22:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, system is ubuntu 10.04 LTS
22:42:35 <elliott> Vorpal: (this should be in #esoteric-minecraft, but)
22:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, no local changes
22:42:44 <elliott> I have no fucking idea. You have Makefile.common, right?
22:42:58 <elliott> Can you sprunge the output of ls -R in the mcmap dir?
22:43:31 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/OPDK
22:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, seems it generate those .d
22:44:12 <elliott> Yes, those are the dependency files.
22:44:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Sprunge build/main.d, please
22:44:41 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/YKSS
22:45:08 <Vorpal> elliott, btw make build/main.o does nothing
22:45:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but completely silent output
22:45:34 <elliott> Vorpal: make clean; make -n
22:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what have you done to poor make!
22:45:48 <elliott> how can you detect eof in bash, does anyone know?
22:46:03 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/GiBG
22:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think you can
22:46:27 <Vorpal> elliott, or maybe through trap
22:46:39 <Vorpal> j-invariant, this is more important
22:47:15 <Vorpal> j-invariant, anything else to test?
22:47:43 <elliott> Vorpal: What make version...
22:47:56 <calamari> it's true, netcraft confirms it!
22:48:36 <elliott> Let me try a clean checkout.
22:48:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why is the exit code 2?
22:48:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what does that mean?
22:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, the man page doesn't say
22:49:11 <elliott> But my local copy works fine.
22:49:23 <Vorpal> elliott, what are your local changes?
22:49:33 <elliott> There are differences in the dirtrees.
22:49:40 <elliott> I forgot to add cmddefs.h to the repository.
22:49:48 <Vorpal> elliott, why doesn't it error out LOUDLY?
22:49:51 <Vorpal> like make usually does
22:50:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't know, but I've fixed it, so I don't care :P
22:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, if you tell me you suppressed that then I'll stab you :P
22:50:13 <elliott> I suppressed nothin' at all.
22:50:29 <Vorpal> how long does the push take?
22:50:29 <elliott> OK, git pull; make clean; make -j3
22:51:04 <Vorpal> elliott, cmddefs.h is weird
22:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, THERE IS NO DUAL INCLUDE GUARD !?!?!? ;P
22:51:49 <olsner> maybe they use #pragma once instead
22:51:57 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why didn't you find it using ls -R ?
22:51:58 <elliott> Vorpal: There shouldn't be one.
22:52:08 <elliott> Also, I was looking to see if you had an old build directory or something.
22:52:15 <elliott> Vorpal: cmddefs.h is an X-Macros data file.
22:52:20 <elliott> See cmd.h and cmd.c for where it's used.
22:54:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_preprocessor#X-Macros
22:54:41 <elliott> Gah, why does bash's read hang rather than exiting.
22:54:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so where is the light mode found?
22:54:59 <elliott> fizzie has not yet committed it.
22:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what made me give up on envbot
22:55:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Funny -- I'm writing an IRC client too.
22:55:18 <elliott> (Just a trivial logbot for #-minecraft.)
22:55:24 <Vorpal> elliott, in bash: don't
22:55:26 <elliott> (Insert the "esoteric" yourself.)
22:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it's actually *done*, the only remaining thing is to handle the server deciding to cancel our connection for whatever reason.
22:55:47 <elliott> Admittedly that is a bit of a showstopper.
22:55:53 <elliott> I'll do it in Ruby instead.
22:56:24 <elliott> Vorpal: As opposed to what, Perl?
22:56:32 <elliott> It's nicer for sockets than Python.
22:56:39 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... .... erlang?
22:56:58 <olsner> I want predicated instructions, all this jumping is so dirty :(
22:59:19 <elliott> And with Haskell it'd all be in the IO monad due to OSes sucking so there's little point
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23:09:52 <elliott> -NickServ- Registered : Sep 22 23:22:44 2010 (16 weeks, 4 days, 23:51:16 ago)
23:09:55 <elliott> is that unused enough to drop?
23:10:15 <elliott> -NickServ- Last seen : (about 16 weeks ago)
23:10:23 <elliott> Vorpal: is that unused enough to drop?
23:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, what nick is it?
23:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not telling you that :-P
23:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, is it one of mine?
23:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott, what if I promise not to steal it? I actually do keep promises
23:11:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, fine. It's Herobrine, for the #-minecraft logbot.
23:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I think it is old enough
23:11:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you think #freenode will one day realise that I've asked them to drop maybe 15 nicks? :P
23:12:04 <elliott> Thankfully I've done them all with different nicks. Mwahahaha!
23:12:30 <Vorpal> I asked them to drop maybe 4 or 5
23:12:45 -!- elliott has changed nick to Herobrine.
23:13:14 <Herobrine> The bartender says, "We don't serve tachyons in here."
23:13:24 <Herobrine> Phantom_Hoover: Not quite dropped yet.
23:13:49 * Sgeo watches Herobrine explode
23:14:15 <Herobrine> Oh my god. I know what it should do.
23:14:24 <Vorpal> Herobrine, wtf at /ns info creeper
23:14:32 <Herobrine> The logbot should say monster noises every interval, as long as it's UTC night time.
23:14:48 <Vorpal> Herobrine, $interval * random()
23:15:01 <Sgeo> Anyone want to get Creeper in here?
23:15:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, we have no clue who it is...
23:15:23 <Sgeo> That just makes it more fun!
23:15:33 <Vorpal> + [Creeper] #pywikipediabot <--- wait, why am I still there
23:15:44 <Herobrine> You do realise that creeper has... certain non-Minecraft-related connotations :P
23:15:46 <Sgeo> I misread <Herobrine> The logbot should say monster noises every interval, as long as it's UTC night time. as coming from Creeper's iinfo
23:15:48 <Herobrine> But then, registered recently, so perhaps not.
23:16:11 <Vorpal> no way we get that idiot in here
23:16:21 <Herobrine> Nub/pie/taco doesn't inspire confidence.
23:16:30 <Vorpal> Herobrine, well I share a channel with the guy
23:16:49 <Vorpal> Herobrine, a whiny noob
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23:17:25 <Herobrine> Prodgeo appears to not actually be an op, so my hopes of a quick drop appear unfounded.
23:21:25 <pikhq> In some US states, illegal drugs are taxed.
23:22:23 <pikhq> If a drug dealer is arrested without having paid the appropriate taxes, the state would seek money owed on it.
23:22:55 <pikhq> To make it more likely that the taxes actually *get paid*, one pays said taxes anonymously, and receives a stamp as proof of payment.
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23:41:11 <Sgeo> I'm getting the feeling that for a languages addict, Standard ML is a good language to learn, not because of anything interesting in Standard ML itself, but because so much stuff uses similar ...thingy
23:41:50 <j-invariant> if you are saying that one should learn about SML then I agree
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23:47:46 <Herobrine> Sgeo: a languages addict should dedicate their life to learning @lang.
23:48:21 <Sgeo> I intend to learn as much as I can once there si more information than "It's a language"
23:48:52 <Herobrine> Sgeo: Ask a question, get an answer.
23:51:49 <Sgeo> ATS's main is curried?
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00:01:06 <Sgeo> Does it have keywords? How many of such could not be redone by the user in @lang in such a way as to look syntactically similar?
00:03:20 <Herobrine> Sgeo: I need to ask a question before I answer that.
00:03:31 <Herobrine> Sgeo: *Is that actually a major factor in your opinion of a language.*
00:03:35 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:04:26 <Sgeo> Your answer should be independent of my answer, unless you make something up to either push me towards or, more likely, away from @lang
00:04:38 <Herobrine> Sgeo: I won't, but I do want an answer from you first.
00:04:56 <Sgeo> It's... nice to have syntactic simplicity
00:05:21 <Sgeo> j-invariant, which is why I prefer 0
00:05:32 <Herobrine> Sgeo: It has syntax, yes. More than 0 keywords.
00:05:40 <Herobrine> 0 keywords is not a virtue, it aids nothing of value.
00:05:51 <Herobrine> j-invariant: For me to give a few concrete answers :)
00:06:34 <Herobrine> Sgeo: But yes the syntax is pretty extensible.
00:07:07 <Herobrine> You can't have random macros that look like function calls, though.
00:07:24 <Herobrine> (Almost everything can be done as a function call, but macros are always distinguishable from function calls without context.)
00:08:01 <Sgeo> http://jfm3.org/phosphorous.pdf
00:10:25 <Herobrine> Sgeo: Let me guess, you saw that and think it's the best idea ever.
00:10:57 <Sgeo> It's obviously a joke
00:11:59 <Herobrine> Sgeo: @lang is kind of like Ur but BETTER
00:12:27 <Sgeo> The Ur reference gives me a headache, and so does the Ur/Web tutorial
00:13:33 <Sgeo> Herobrine, not literally
00:13:39 <Sgeo> I just mean I don't understand it
00:13:54 <Herobrine> Right. Well if you don't understand Ur you'll never understand @lang, which is a great reason to keep asking questions.
00:15:31 <j-invariant> Sgeo: try making something with Ur, that will probably be easier
00:16:58 <Sgeo> I imagine the functional-ness of Ur/Web means readable URLs are just natural?
00:18:25 <j-invariant> don't think there's a connection between those two things
00:20:21 <Sgeo> I think I just crashed the Ur demo
00:20:45 <Herobrine> Also, I have no idea how you relate functional-ness and readable URLs.
00:20:48 <Sgeo> It was working, and now it's not
00:21:12 <Sgeo> That's what I meant
00:22:07 <Sgeo> I uploaded a .WAgame file
00:22:21 <Sgeo> Shouldn't it just have rejected it?
00:22:57 <Sgeo> function always returns the same thing -> link to a function -> URL contains function's name and arguments
00:31:17 <Sgeo> Someone called Newspeak a farce
00:31:40 <Sgeo> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4112
00:32:18 <Herobrine> Vorpal: XChat help fail: " Usage: NOTICE <nick/channel> <message>, sends a notice. Notices are a type of message that should be auto reacted to"
00:32:46 <Herobrine> Sgeo: He also called Oberon and Common Lisp farce. You are perhaps missing some humour.
00:33:04 <Herobrine> Sgeo: Clearly you cannot even read the summary: 'Object-Orientation is now over forty years old. In that time, Object-Oriented programming has moved from a Scandinavian cult to a world-wide standard. In this talk I’ll revisit the essential principles — myths — of object-orientation, and discuss their role in the evolution of languages from SIMULA to Smalltalk to C++ to Java and beyond. Only by keeping the object-oriented faith can we ensu
00:33:04 <Herobrine> re full-spectrum object-oriented dominance for the next forty years in the project for a new object-oriented century!"
00:35:14 <Herobrine> Sgeo: Can you /notice #esoteric test for me?
00:36:44 <Sgeo> Maybe I should go learn Sel
00:37:09 <Herobrine> Sgeo: No, ask more @lang questions.
00:39:26 <Sgeo> Self doesn't run on Windows
00:41:38 <Sgeo> What language did I see where every object has a URI? Or something referencing that idea? Or some variation thereof?
00:42:12 <Herobrine> j-invariant: well, depends how it's executed.
00:42:14 <j-invariant> it might be useful in a specific circumstance
00:44:10 <Sgeo> Well, I saw something somewhere using that idea
00:44:16 <Sgeo> For the life of me, I can't find it
00:44:31 <Sgeo> And I'm not referring to Virtuality or whatever that thing's called
00:44:40 <Sgeo> Although I might be confusing what I'm thinking of with that
00:45:25 <Herobrine> Uh oh, looks like I have to ask the owner of this to degroup it.
00:45:30 <Sgeo> http://interreality.org/ <==not what I was thinking of
00:46:18 <Herobrine> Gregor: Here's a language to learn. http://www.enchiladacode.nl/
00:46:36 <Herobrine> Its author was in here a while ago.
00:47:26 <Sgeo> So my mind is not just making shit up now
00:47:28 <Sgeo> Glad to hear it
00:47:46 <Sgeo> I had no clue if wwhat I was imagining even existed. I could swear it did, but
00:47:53 <Sgeo> This inability to find the bloody thing
00:48:40 <Sgeo> Herobrine, you're reinforcing my perception that it exists
00:48:52 <Sgeo> <Herobrine> Its author was in here a while ago.
00:48:52 <Sgeo> <Herobrine> But I'd seen it before.
00:49:44 <Sgeo> Lemme go kill Chrome
00:50:13 <Sgeo> Why is a Java applet loading?
00:52:56 <Sgeo> "Information cannot be destroyed."
00:53:03 <Sgeo> This will be interesting
00:53:14 <Herobrine> It is one of the oddest languages I know of.
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00:55:26 <Sgeo> TODO: explain this isn't a problem
00:55:40 <Sgeo> (referring to the size of the hashes, not to anything j-invariant said)
00:55:57 <Herobrine> That's probably in response to me and cpressey being uneasy about it in here to him. :)
00:56:47 <Herobrine> (tl;dr we care about the fact that theoretically, the language is completely broken from the start; he cares about the fact that in practice, it will never break, and the fact that if you just accept the (impossible) uniqueness of SHA-512, there is no theoretical problem with the language.)
00:57:01 <Herobrine> That's a bit "yikes" but whatever...
00:57:06 <Herobrine> Even @ assigns a hash to every object.
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00:57:28 <Herobrine> "The current version is written in Scala and compiled against the JVM 1.5. Other (but now defunct) implementations include Java, Factor and Haskell implementations."
00:57:53 <Herobrine> (The state of being irrationally addicted to languages.)
00:59:15 <Sgeo> But unlike me, he's actually DONE stuff in a variety of languages
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01:01:17 <Herobrine> "The most general rule is the equational rule that holds for all A, B and X that are Enchilada expressions:
01:01:41 <Herobrine> Hmm, maybe it's just phrased wrong.
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01:02:31 <Sgeo> Or maybe he's deluded
01:02:52 <Herobrine> Sgeo: Rather quick to jump to conclusions, aren't we.
01:02:58 <Herobrine> No, it's definitely just stated wrong.
01:03:11 <Herobrine> "forall A B, (forall X, A X == B X) <=> A == B"
01:03:56 <Sgeo> Herobrine, huh?
01:04:19 <Herobrine> Sgeo: (forall x y, (forall f, f(x) = f(y)) <-> x = y) is a law of logic.
01:04:59 <Herobrine> Hey, Stevan Apter and Sjoerd Visscher helped with Enchilada.
01:10:18 -!- Herobrine has set topic: Esoteric programming languages | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:10:23 <Herobrine> (Making us presentable for a possible visitor...)
01:10:47 <Herobrine> The author of this nick is asking about the bot, long story.
01:11:44 -!- Herobrine has set topic: minecraft channel.
01:11:58 -!- Herobrine has set topic: Esoteric programming languages | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:13:15 <Sgeo> I think I like homoiconic languages
01:14:35 <Sgeo> C's "\n" is defined in some compilers as "\n"?
01:14:40 -!- Herobrine has changed nick to elliott.
01:19:26 -!- elliott has changed nick to Herobrine.
01:19:41 -!- Herobrine has changed nick to elliott.
01:19:42 <Sgeo> "One of the infamous features of the standard Unix C compiler (I don't know if it is true of gcc) was that the definitions for the characters like \n were not explicit. When you got to the part of the compiler that defined them, they were defined in terms of themselves. Somewhere in time there had to have been a compiler that gave the numeric values of these characters, but it had been rewritten to be just a tiny bit metacircular."
01:20:38 <elliott> case 'n': realchar = '\n'; break;
01:20:43 <elliott> case 't': realchar = '\t'; break;
01:20:56 <elliott> So whatever the compiler that's compiling the C compiler thinks \n is, gets used as the value.
01:21:06 <elliott> gcc is probably far too anal for this and uses 10 and the like to make SURE the values are right.
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01:37:51 <elliott> Sgeo: To explain the driver thing: with @, code in @lang can do anything it wants.
01:38:07 <elliott> Sgeo: For instance, you can easily write a program that overwrites the entire contents of memory, and then sends garbage data to every IO port on the system.
01:38:16 <elliott> Sgeo: What stops you is the security model.
01:38:34 <elliott> Even drivers don't get access to all the RAM; they'll be given precisely the regions they need to communicate with some memory-mapped hardware device.
01:38:45 <elliott> (That's for direct access; they can use more memory by allocating things, of course.)
01:39:04 <Sgeo> How does the OS know what regions the driver needsA?
01:39:19 <elliott> Sgeo: The driver tells it.
01:39:33 <elliott> (If you're thinking "but what if it lies?" -- ever checked any of your drivers lately? They can access EVERYTHING.)
01:39:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Of course, the user has to allow it to access such memory.
01:40:31 <elliott> Sgeo: Oh, and if @ can query the system as to, say, what ports are assigned to which devices, or the like, then it can automatically grant permission for those; any requests for more will be considered suspicious.
01:40:43 <elliott> Sgeo: Here's another language for you. http://will.thimbleby.net/misc/
01:41:13 <elliott> Yes! Just like Enchilada! Oh joy!
01:41:13 <Sgeo> That sounds Lua-like
01:41:22 <Sgeo> How is it just like Enchilada?
01:41:38 <elliott> In MISC, all your code is maps.
01:42:42 <Sgeo> I dislike prefix notation. Not strongly enough to stop me learning MISC
01:42:58 <elliott> Sgeo: You realise that almost all your programs consist of prefix notation...
01:43:04 <elliott> Arithmetic is honestly a minor special case :-P
01:43:16 <elliott> OK, so OOP turns it on its head a little, but really it just turns (f x y z) into (x f y z).
01:43:48 <Sgeo> Smalltalk-like languages turn it into something like (x f y f z)
01:44:20 <elliott> Sgeo: BTW, here's Herobrine's code:
01:44:25 <elliott> log http://sprunge.us/SDKY
01:44:31 <elliott> httpserv http://sprunge.us/KHVi
01:44:43 <elliott> (I run the HTTP server as root to use port 80, which is laughable but I'm lazy.)
01:45:10 <Sgeo> I haven't written that much code in a very, very long time
01:45:35 <elliott> It's a 45-minute hack job. (log is a 5 minute hack job, and httpserv got out of control.)
01:46:04 <elliott> But hey, you can link to individual lines in a log!
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01:48:21 <elliott> Sgeo: Gah, I feel like making my own little homoiconic language, and blame you.
01:48:38 <elliott> Enchilada-sequences and MISC-maps are taken, maybe I'll base mine on sets.
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01:51:46 * Sgeo wants MISC to take over the world
01:52:50 <Sgeo> No, I did not actually die.
01:53:33 <elliott> Sgeo: seriously want it to take over the world?
01:53:58 <Sgeo> I would like to see something like it in wider use perhaps. Maybe.
01:54:21 <Sgeo> I haven't gone through the tutorial yet
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01:55:26 <Sgeo> I must say I am appreciative of the lack of special forms
01:56:04 <elliott> Lambda is just quoted data :P
01:56:12 <elliott> Haha, this is totally going to be ridiculous based on set theory.
01:56:28 <elliott> I wonder if I'll use Wiener's or Kuratowski's ordered pair definition.
01:56:34 <elliott> Wiener's is uglier but lets me avoid duplicating data.
01:56:59 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordered_pair#Wiener's_definition
01:57:08 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm not going to use set theory, I'm amusing myself by creating the language:
01:57:25 <elliott> Enchilada : sequences :: MISC : associative maps :: my language : sets
01:57:31 <elliott> It will be HILARIOUSLY SILLY
01:57:39 <elliott> just explaining what i'm doing
01:57:46 <j-invariant> I don't know hwy people don't use category theory
01:58:01 <elliott> wait, Wiener's doesn't quite work I don't think...possibly
01:58:14 <elliott> how do you extend Kuratowski to longer tuples?
01:59:33 <Sgeo> Dear Tutorial: Ctrl-C did not in fact stop evaluation
01:59:56 <elliott> (a, b)reverse := {{b}, {a, b}};
01:59:56 <elliott> (a, b)short := {a, {a, b}};
01:59:56 <elliott> (a, b)01 := {{0,a}, {1, b}}.
02:00:16 <elliott> i guess you can extract it from that
02:01:42 <elliott> obviously i need some weird syntax to succeed
02:01:56 <elliott> I'll define "a => b" to be "[a; b]"
02:04:13 <elliott> Sgeo: {0=>false; x=>true} --> {[0; false]; [x; true]} --> { {{0}; {0; false}}; {{x}; {x; true}} } --> {{{{}}; {{}; false}}; {{x}; {x; true}}} --> {{{{}}; {{}; {}}}; {{x}; {x; {{}}}}} --> {{{{}}}; {{x}; {x; {{}}}}}
02:04:21 <elliott> Sgeo: so {{{{}}}; {{x}; {x; {{}}}}} is the function "is not zero"
02:04:24 <elliott> Sgeo: do you like this language it is homoiconic
02:06:46 <elliott> Sgeo: how can you say that, it is the most beautiful
02:06:58 <elliott> probably i should figure out a way to make the symbolic expression "x" a variable
02:07:42 <elliott> j-invariant: best language i have here??
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02:14:51 <elliott> j-invariant: lol sets are the worst
02:16:55 <elliott> Sgeo: "Prefix notation might not be to your taste. Luckily writing a standard math parser is simple."
02:16:59 <Sgeo> I'd like to see someone develop a ... more used language based off of it, although without scrapping the purity. The thing is, I don't see what's wrong with taking MISC as it is and just .. more libraries, etc.
02:17:10 <Sgeo> More real-world use
02:17:11 <elliott> And that requires forking the language...why?
02:17:16 <Sgeo> elliott, it doesn't
02:17:20 <elliott> This shit gets no real-world use because nobody cares, Sgeo.
02:17:44 <elliott> Sgeo: OK, let me try and use an analogy only a YouTube user could understand. Put yourself in the mind of a YouTube user momentarily.
02:18:09 <elliott> Sgeo: "I'd like to see someone make a ... more popular album based off of Justin Bieber's, although without scrapping the talent. Just ... more real world."
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02:18:20 <elliott> Correct response: "Quality > popularity."
02:18:32 <elliott> Incorrect response: "I wish [BAND] would take over the world instead of Justin Bieber!!!!!!!!!"
02:19:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Are you... understanding?
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02:20:28 <elliott> j-invariant: he's talking about MISC now.
02:20:46 <elliott> j-invariant: I'm attempting to explain that aiming for popularity gets you mediocrity.
02:20:59 <elliott> Sgeo: You know the people in your course?
02:21:10 <elliott> *They, or people only marginally better than them, are MOST PROGRAMMERS.*
02:21:16 <Sgeo> How about at least Haskell-like popular
02:21:34 <Sgeo> Is that a reasonable goal?
02:21:36 <elliott> The set of people who actually use Haskell in actual products or software like checking out niche langs too.
02:21:48 <elliott> Most people who claim to be a fan of Haskell ostensibly read a tutorial but have never actually written a program longer than 10 lines.
02:21:54 <j-invariant> Sgeo: not really, Haskell is incredibly popular
02:22:07 <Sgeo> elliott, um, I might fall in that set
02:22:16 <Sgeo> Well, that BF interp I guess
02:22:23 <elliott> Sgeo: Why do you care so much about popularity? Would you rather have created a pile of shit that the whole world loves, or a beautiful gem that only a handful see?
02:22:34 <Sgeo> I tend to just read a lot of tutorials
02:22:47 <Sgeo> Because a good language would make everyone's lives easier
02:23:16 <elliott> 90% of programmers are SHIT. They can fuck up _any_ language.
02:23:24 <j-invariant> The trick is to make something good that people like
02:23:29 <elliott> And until you significantly improve the whole corporate structure and hiring process, and the whole CS education system, that will never change.
02:23:40 <elliott> Getting good programmers to like something is a real achievement.
02:23:44 <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
02:24:08 <j-invariant> 02:28 < elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
02:24:10 <Sgeo> I have to admit, I do see some things unlikable about MISC
02:24:10 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, a good language getting too popular with the majority of -- bad -- programmers will dilute it, as they pollute the ecosystem with their bad practices.
02:24:26 <elliott> j-invariant: `addquote <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
02:24:31 <elliott> j-invariant: you run it or it'll log it as me adding my own quote :>
02:25:42 * Sgeo wonders if there could exist a language in which there was no bad practices
02:25:51 <Sgeo> All things that could be bad practice are not doable
02:25:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, it's called Omega.
02:26:01 <j-invariant> `addquote <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
02:26:04 <elliott> Sgeo: The Singularity is the only compiler.
02:26:07 <elliott> It rejects your code if it's bad.
02:26:16 <elliott> That is the _only_ way that will _ever_ happen.
02:26:19 <elliott> There is one language satisfying that.
02:26:28 <elliott> Unfortunately, there are no good practices either.
02:26:49 <HackEgo> 268) <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
02:26:53 <Sgeo> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4088 ?
02:27:37 * Sgeo 's eyes glaze over
02:27:48 <elliott> I DIDN'T MEAN THAT OMEGA GOD DAMMIT
02:28:15 <j-invariant> also: DOesn't that omega suck? or was it made before Agda?
02:28:29 <j-invariant> because I guess it is okay if it was a precursor to agda
02:28:49 <Sgeo> forall strings S: There exists a language named S
02:29:10 <elliott> j-invariant: well you realise that dependent types come with their disadvantages...
02:29:15 <elliott> in Omegamega, you never have to write long proofs :P
02:31:48 <elliott> j-invariant: summary from comments: "AFAIU, the point of Omega is to keep the standard FP model, and only augment it with some more or less modest extensions, whereas Epigram requires a very different programming model."
02:32:59 <elliott> i love lambda-the-ultimate
02:33:04 <elliott> everywhere should be lambda-the-ultimate
02:38:34 <elliott> Sgeo: i have figured out the language that will seize your heart
02:38:55 <elliott> Sgeo: prototype-based, homoiconic, immutable, everything-is-a-map, higher order language with no builtins
02:39:08 <elliott> Sgeo: and also a complicated module system
02:39:29 <Sgeo> The only reason I expressed interest in Seph's immutable stuff is that you seem convinced that mutability is evil
02:39:33 <Sgeo> I personally don't care
02:39:35 <elliott> Sgeo: IF I MAKE IT WILL YOU BE HAPPY AND STOP LOOKING FOR ANOTHER LANGUAGE
02:40:31 <elliott> Sgeo: That's a no, but it sounds interesting enough that I will anyway.
02:40:36 <elliott> TO MY LOGREADING SELF: ^^^^ DO THAT
02:40:42 <elliott> Sgeo: You get to remind me if I don't logread.
02:41:19 <elliott> Sgeo: If I add "symbolic" to the features pile will you be even happier?
02:41:33 <Sgeo> I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that
02:42:26 <elliott> Sgeo: As in, x+x is valid code that just sits there, and you can replace x by 2 as an operation and it'll turn into 4.
02:42:39 <Sgeo> Interesting...
02:43:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Oh, I forgot, every object has a URI.
02:43:44 <elliott> They have URNs based on their hash, and you publish modules by putting them at a URL, which you can then use as an object inside the interpreter.
02:43:45 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't care so much about that, as I care about finding what system put me in mind of that
02:44:05 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm just going to pack in every possible feature, because I want to make sure you never go looking for another language.
02:44:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Oh, I forgot, it'll have hotswapping too.
02:44:48 <Sgeo> Good luck packing in both static and dynamic typing
02:44:50 <elliott> Sgeo: What else do you like?
02:45:01 <elliott> Also, clearly I'll just have OPTIONAL static typing.
02:46:07 <Sgeo> It needs to take over the world
02:46:38 <elliott> Sgeo: You're in charge of that.
02:46:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Oh, and I'll help you create an Active Worlds binding.
02:46:56 <elliott> Then maybe you will stop talking about languages. Forever!
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02:55:55 <Sgeo> " is built on top of the CPython VM, compiling to Python bytecode."
02:56:01 <Sgeo> So Python ISN'T safe
02:56:38 <variable> The Art of Computer Programming, Volume 4A
02:57:35 <Sgeo> elliott probably hates Logi
02:57:55 <Sgeo> "Logix is no longer under development, and the original author, Tom Locke, has moved on to other projects."
02:58:06 <Sgeo> elliott, new requirement: Development is not allowed to cease.
02:58:38 <pikhq> Yup. First volume in *38 years*.
03:00:33 <pikhq> At the current rate, immortality will need to be invented for Knuth to finish.
03:02:05 <variable> http://www-cs-staff.stanford.edu/~uno/news.html
03:09:30 <j-invariant> I swear I couuld yhear the minecraft song playing... but I don't have minecraft open
03:09:53 <variable> j-invariant, you are forever lost\
03:14:45 <j-invariant> why do I stay up until 3 am I have ot get up early
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03:24:56 <Gregor> Why is it so friggin' difficult to set up a webdav subversion server X_X
03:25:15 <j-invariant> N. Davidson (pers. comm., Sept. 7, 2004) found
03:25:52 <j-invariant> Gregor: that seems weird because normally svn is pretty good
03:26:28 <Gregor> Subversion is pretty mediocre, but as server-client VCS go, it's tolerable.
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03:28:01 <Sgeo> This looks interesting
03:28:02 <Sgeo> http://boom.cs.berkeley.edu/
03:30:21 <Sgeo> It was a web framework
03:30:41 <Sgeo> The objects as URI thing that I saw recently was some ... document describing a web framework
03:30:45 <Sgeo> Or some text, anyway
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03:39:36 <Gregor> Finally got it working. svn sucks X_X
03:42:39 <Gregor> However, when you want a repository for nothing but friggin' enormous files ... yeah, SVN :P
03:42:49 <Gregor> (friggin' enormous /binary/ files)
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04:01:41 <Sgeo> ::=> is a WONDERFUL operator for something described as _bidirectional_
04:01:52 <Sgeo> </talking-about-things-he-doesn't-understand-yet>
04:01:59 <Sgeo> http://coherence-lang.org/EmergingLangs.pdf
04:15:57 <Sgeo> http://subtextual.org/subtext2.html I get a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooIncompetentToOperateABlanket feel from the first few minutes
04:21:10 <pikhq> SVN is best described as "CVS but better".
04:21:31 <pikhq> Which isn't to say it's *good*.
04:26:23 * Sgeo wants to see a good dataflow language
04:30:23 <copumpkin> pikhq: isn't that their mission statement?
04:30:31 <pikhq> copumpkin: Probably.
04:54:46 <Sgeo> comex is in the Nimrod channel
04:56:31 <Sgeo> "Whole program dead code elimination: Only used functions are included in the executable."
04:57:36 <quintopia> what's wrong with trimming out functions that can't possibly be called?
04:59:08 * pikhq would like to take this opportunity to mock Sony.
04:59:18 <pikhq> Guess what encryption scheme the PSP uses?
05:00:02 <pikhq> Private key encryption, with the key actually part of the CPU's mask.
05:00:28 <pikhq> Now, normally this would be really *hard* to break, what with electron scanning microscopes being a rarity.
05:00:41 <pikhq> However, they also stuck a PSP emulator into the PS3.
05:00:55 <pikhq> And said emulator handles encryption just the same as the PSP.
05:01:13 <pikhq> So now that the PS3 is hacked, the PSP is hacked and even *more* impossible to fix than the PS3.
05:01:15 <coppro> oh man, iagoldbe would love this
05:02:04 <pikhq> It's basically hacked to the same extent the Dreamcast is now.
05:05:50 <Sgeo> "Case is insignificant in Nimrod and even underscores are ignored: This_is_an_identifier and ThisIsAnIdentifier are the same identifier. This feature enables you to use other people's code without bothering about a naming convention that conflicts with yours. It also frees you from remembering the exact spelling of an identifier (was it parseURL or parseUrl or parse_URL?)."
05:06:12 <Sgeo> I want to quote what someone said in #nimrod but I haven't gotten a response
05:07:43 <Sgeo> Indenting a comment wrong is a syntax error
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05:08:31 <Sgeo> There's a lot to laugh about, but I still want to be intrigued by this language
05:08:45 <Sgeo> Supposed to compile nicely, has Python-like syntax, and Lisp-like macros
05:10:03 <quintopia> wow, that is a terrible idea...i can understand disallowing variables that are too similar in that way by autocorrecting them to the declared form in the IDE...but making the parser not discriminate at all? i hope that the IDE at least matches all identifiers no matter how you format it...
05:10:29 <coppro> what is the name for the attack on a compiler where you backdoor it
05:10:31 <coppro> perfect something attack?
05:10:54 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> "Whole program dead code elimination: Only used functions are included in the executable."
05:10:54 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I assume that's not making the claim that every single function that will never be called is always removed
05:10:54 <Sgeo> <manveru> Sgeo: it is
05:11:01 <Sgeo> coppro, Trusting Trust
05:12:34 <Sgeo> http://force7.de/nimrod/tut1.html
05:15:13 <quintopia> sgeo: lawl. i suspect it just means that every function that they can prove will never be called is removed, in fact, i suspect it means that every function that doesn't actually get called anywhere in the code is removed as that is the laziest sort of heuristic to implement.
05:18:19 <Sgeo> I think maybe I should NOT treat that person like an idiot
05:18:55 <Sgeo> When it became clear what I was getting at, ... actually, he didn't know what I was getting at, because my examples weren't really clear violations
05:20:45 <Sgeo> "Every variable, procedure, etc. needs to be declared before it can be used. (The reason for this is compilation efficiency.) "
05:21:23 <Sgeo> Hey, it's better than the situation in Python! (Nimrod has forward declarations)
05:21:37 <Sgeo> Although admittedly, Python has an excuse. It's not a compiled language
05:22:07 <Sgeo> And yes, I know that C and C++ do the same thing. That doesn't make it good
05:23:35 <Sgeo> "Thus it cannot represent an UTF-8 character, but a part of it. The reason for this is efficiency: for the overwhelming majority of use-cases, the resulting programs will still handle UTF-8 properly as UTF-8 was specially designed for this."
05:27:48 <Sgeo> I want to like this language
05:34:04 <Sgeo> I think I'm subconsciously taking the comment thing as a slur against the language, when really it's not
05:37:53 <coppro> then attempt to use it
05:38:11 <coppro> if you enjoy it and find it useful
05:38:19 <Sgeo> elliott has limited bearing over whether or not I end up actually using a language
05:38:27 <Sgeo> (The answer is, I usually don't)
05:38:56 <Sgeo> He does have a significant bearing over whether I look at it longingly or turn away a bit too abruptly
05:52:07 <Vorpal> <Herobrine> Vorpal: XChat help fail: " Usage: NOTICE <nick/channel> <message>, sends a notice. Notices are a type of message that should be auto reacted to" <-- XD
05:53:14 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314's learning about Atomo?
05:53:54 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: no, arguing over some language details
05:55:06 <Mathnerd314> I've been nitpicking ever since I found out about the language :p
06:02:15 <quintopia> guys, opinion: which compiled language has the most pleasant syntax?
06:05:41 <pikhq> So. Joule Unlimited claims to have created cheap, renewable hydrocarbons. Such as gasoline.
06:06:02 <pikhq> Requiring little more than sunlight and CO₂ to function...
06:06:45 <pikhq> By "cheap", I mean "approx. the equivalent of $30/barrel crude oil."
06:08:11 <pikhq> (crude oil is currently trading at $90/barrel)
06:10:18 <quintopia> unless they can harvest thr CO2 from the atmosphere to do it
06:10:39 <pikhq> quintopia: Photosynthesis.
06:10:59 <Sgeo> pikhq, surely at least H2O or something is needed, if this is real>
06:11:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: Oh, sorry, *and water*. Duh.
06:11:20 <quintopia> pikhq: as yet, photosynthesis is incredibly inefficient for market purposes
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06:11:33 <pikhq> quintopia: Not when your bacteria are directly outputting fuel.
06:11:53 <Ilari> Yeah, there's not that much sunlight coming to this planet (in terms of power density)...
06:12:31 <Ilari> Okay, on the order of 1GW per square kilometre, but square kilometre is quite a big area...
06:12:40 <pikhq> They are *claiming* that at full scale, they could get 15,000 gallons of diesel per acre per year.
06:12:58 <Ilari> Or actually, the average power is something like 200MW...
06:13:06 <pikhq> In lab, they are achieving 40% of that.
06:13:33 <pikhq> Also, no need for the land to actually be agriculturally useful...
06:13:45 <pikhq> Death Valley would work quite nicely.
06:14:42 <Ilari> Land can be useful for growing food without being agriculturally useful... But there are lands that aren't useful in any way, yes...
06:15:55 <Mathnerd314> hmm, they're making diesel - better get a diesel car
06:16:06 <Ilari> Except that in death valley, there's not that much water available...
06:16:18 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Arbitrary hydrocarbons.
06:16:46 <pikhq> Ilari: So you'd probably want somewhere with plenty of sunlight, plenty of water, and no real other use.
06:17:05 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: "can produce renewable diesel fuel"
06:18:02 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: They can also produce ethanol.
06:18:49 <quintopia> what is the the energy content of 15000gal of biodiesel?
06:18:52 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok... but what about gasoline, the main alternative to diesel?
06:19:01 <Ilari> ... There aren't exactly many such places...
06:19:32 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Well, without much work a gasoline engine can burn ethanol.
06:20:01 <Ilari> Well, lands that have been totally destroyed by agriculture could do...
06:20:13 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Pretty much all you need to do is replace hoses where fuel runs, as ethanol can dissolve them.
06:20:47 <pikhq> Granted, a bit labor-intensive, but entirely practical.
06:20:50 <Mathnerd314> this sounds much harder than just using diesel...
06:21:23 <pikhq> Where you get a brand new car?
06:22:21 <Ilari> Also with bioethanol, where are you going to get it in massive scale and with good EROEI? Algae could possibly do, but the technology is quite immature...
06:22:28 <Mathnerd314> yeah, buying a well-made car is much easier than customizing an existing one
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06:24:57 <pikhq> Ilari: They're claiming to have it *right now*...
06:25:19 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: but it's only commercial in 2012 or later
06:25:34 <quintopia> if the diesel they rpoduce has the energy content of most other biofuel
06:25:42 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Yes; I'm just saying they have the tech working and affordable right this instant.
06:25:58 <quintopia> and they can produce 15000 gal per acre-year
06:26:34 <quintopia> then less than 64 acres are needed to replace all the world's current fossil fuel usage
06:27:19 <Ilari> That's something like 85 million barrels per DAY.
06:28:11 <Ilari> The amount they are claiming is something like 360 barrels per year from one acre.
06:30:19 <Ilari> So you would need about 350 000 km^2...
06:30:39 <pikhq> BTW, they don't *seem* to be crackpots. Among other things, they've got George Church (Professor of Health Sciences and Technology at MIT and Harvard; invented genome sequencing; helped initiate the Human Genome Project) and Jim Collins (Professor of Biomedical Engineering at Boston University; essentially *invented* genetic engineering) on board...
06:32:27 <quintopia> i found a mistake in my calculation
06:33:16 <quintopia> i was assuming without realizing it that a gallon of biodiesel would last a whole year of continuous usage :P
06:33:53 <quintopia> why do they give the energy content of fuel instead of the raw power available?
06:35:21 <Ilari> Haha... "The results suggest there is a weak correlation, but better or larger studies are needed to really tell one way or the other."... "$415 million were spent on this study, there won't be another bigger study."
06:36:41 <Sgeo> " It was supposed to be random in all direction, but Notch mixed up degrees with radians"
06:36:55 <Sgeo> Of course he did
06:37:38 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/TNT
06:40:37 <pikhq> Huh. It's possible to destroy bedrock.
06:43:24 <pikhq> Bedrock has finite TNT resistance.
06:43:31 <pikhq> *Large*, but finite.
06:45:36 <Ilari> How can you concentrate enough explosive power to one spot? AFAIK, you can only drop about 250 TNT blocks to one spot...
06:46:39 <Ilari> And TNT blocks only explode few blocks away, so you could maybe cause few thoursand TNT explosions to reach given spot at once...
06:47:22 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZKtvHQSNY Well, this guy managed to.
06:47:33 <pikhq> The ball o' TNT there is just above ground.
06:47:38 <pikhq> The primed TNT just fell enough.
06:51:22 <Ilari> That's tall... Note that clouds clip it...
06:52:20 <pikhq> Yes, it's really big.
06:52:33 <pikhq> The point is that it's *possible*, not that it's sane to destroy bedrock. :)
06:54:57 <Sgeo> That's an earlier version of MC
06:57:22 <Sgeo> Cover up the crater with lots of dirt except for a well-hidden shaft
06:57:37 <Sgeo> Watch victim-players fall in
06:58:22 <coppro> The One MC: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1260/593523075_33d187df39.jpg
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07:01:20 <copumpkin> that huge ball o' TNT looks awesome
07:01:38 <Ilari> The material surrounding the central pool is bedrock?
07:03:14 <Ilari> Eh, it is not water...
07:06:26 <Ilari> Then fill that hole with TNT and ignite it? :-)
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07:27:39 <Sgeo> The creator of a language should know whether non-macros are allowed insde macros
07:30:44 <Ilari> Back in 60's people sure were more optimistic about spaceflight: Calling for manned mars flight by end of the century... Now there's no idea how long that would take (most probably never given present conditions).
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07:55:10 <Ilari> APNIC allocations/delegations (in latest report): 2x/8, 1x/9, 46x/10, 43x/11, 100x/12, 201x/13, 415x/14, 577x/15, 1588x/16, 630x/17, 874x/18, 1613x/19, 1744x/20, 1503x/21, 764x/22, 72x/23, 172x/24.
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08:20:02 <Ilari> For total of 757 220 352 IPs (45.13x/8). Logaritmic allocation size /2.50.
08:21:42 <Ilari> Logaritmic size of the entiere IPv4 global unicast space is about /0.21
08:59:19 <fizzie> What about that 240/4 set, is no-one going to use that thing ever? I mean, yes, yes, "reserved for future use", but there's not going to be any call for that in a totally IPv6 world. :p
09:08:08 <Ilari> Nobody is ever going to use them...
09:09:35 <Ilari> That means 588 316 672 addresses are not usable for global unicast.
09:13:35 <Ilari> BTW: Some addresses are pretty much unusable due to OS bug...
09:15:22 <Ilari> IIRC, there are around 2M of such addresses...
09:16:55 <Ilari> Like assigning IP address of e.g. 195.221.52.255 to Windows box isn't going to go very well (at least earlier versions of Windows couldn't have that address).
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14:29:12 <Gregor> Debian Software Freedom for Debian Goodness
14:29:17 <17SAARPFQ> -NickServ- elliott!~elliott@91.105.75.160 has just authenticated as you (elliott) * You are now known as 17SAARPFQ
14:29:17 <17SAARPFQ> * elliott (~elliott@91.105.75.160) has joined #esoteric-minecraft
14:29:17 <17SAARPFQ> <elliott> Yay, my logbot stayed up.
14:29:21 <17SAARPFQ> <17SAARPFQ> What... the... fuck...
14:29:24 <17SAARPFQ> I said those things *when I first joined*.
14:29:31 <17SAARPFQ> Neither clog nor my logbot saw them.
14:29:40 <17SAARPFQ> I... have no fucking clue what just happened.
14:29:44 <17SAARPFQ> oerjan: no, that was in -minecraft
14:29:47 -!- 17SAARPFQ has changed nick to elliott.
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14:30:18 <ais523> elliott: anonymity reference?
14:30:30 <ais523> Tritonio: we split the channel into minecraft and non-minecraft discussion
14:30:44 <ais523> because although minecraft is actually a valid esolang, people normally weren't discussing it as one
14:30:46 <Tritonio> minecraft discussions on esoteric??? sinc when?
14:30:58 <ais523> Tritonio: for weeks now
14:31:07 <Ilari> IRC server force-renicking?
14:31:10 <Tritonio> i suppose redstone is what makes it a language?
14:31:50 <elliott> ais523: no, see my lines I pasted
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14:31:57 <Ilari> Also, there are at least 1 482 CAs trusted by Firefox / Windows 7... Nifty.
14:32:07 <ais523> *** elliott is now known as 17SAARPFQ.
14:32:10 <elliott> we've just been talking about it as players :P
14:32:16 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> -NickServ- elliott!~elliott@91.105.75.160 has just authenticated as you (elliott) * You are now known as 17SAARPFQ
14:32:16 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> * elliott (~elliott@91.105.75.160) has joined #esoteric-minecraft
14:32:16 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> <elliott> Yay, my logbot stayed up.
14:32:16 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> <elliott> Or maybe not.
14:32:16 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> <elliott> Erm...
14:32:16 <ais523> forced renicking is normally to guest-number, isn't it?
14:32:18 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> * elliott has quit (Client Quit)
14:32:20 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> <17SAARPFQ> What... the... fuck...
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14:32:22 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> I said those things *when I first joined*.
14:32:24 <elliott> <17SAARPFQ> Neither clog nor my logbot saw them.
14:32:25 <ais523> yes, you pasted it already
14:32:30 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it makes no sense!
14:33:03 <elliott> ais523: so basically, I joined, said things, nothing else saw them, not even me connecting; reconnected, now things could see me, got booted off my nick, saw my own ghost connect, said the lines I originally did, and then quit
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14:33:34 <ais523> elliott: that makes no sense
14:33:40 <elliott> ais523: THAT'S WHAT I SAID
14:33:59 <elliott> ais523: I suspect some Freenode system glitch, maybe to do with server-to-server communication.
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14:34:09 <oerjan> elliott: i _did_ see <elliott> clog is down? (and so did clog :D)
14:34:20 <elliott> oerjan: yep, that's when everything started working
14:34:35 <ais523> hmm, it seems that the current nickserv actually recommends using /ns ghost in order to get rid of someone impersonating you
14:34:40 <ais523> most nickservs have a separate command for that
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14:36:10 <elliott> ais523: what do you call a person who, after writing a logbot, realises they need a way to serve the logs, and decides to write their own HTTP server, handling the protocol themselves, with a built-in log formatter, in Ruby?
14:36:41 <ais523> hmm, Martin would work well
14:36:53 * elliott is now known as MartinGeorge
14:37:15 <elliott> ais523: at least I didn't reinvent the wheel in log storage, and stole loggic's format instead
14:37:28 <elliott> except that I omitted the date from the timestamps as i have a file per date
14:39:25 <ais523> loggic stole its format from the IRC standard
14:39:31 <elliott> ais523: nuh uh, it added dates
14:39:46 <ais523> that was just date(1), I think
14:39:46 <oerjan> elliott: did you see anyone else while this weird stuff was happening? maybe you just accidentally joined a split server and got renicked when it unsplit again
14:39:59 <ais523> aha, that might make sense
14:40:09 <ais523> elliott on both sides of the split server, and the real elliott was newer than the logbot
14:40:43 <elliott> hmm, looks like i don't put "stopped logging" messages in the log properly
14:40:52 <elliott> also, I've forgotten to set the encoding to utf-8
14:41:51 <ais523> original encoding would make sense for actual storage
14:45:34 <elliott> hmm, i want to recreate my log formatter for clog, now
14:45:43 <elliott> http://208.78.103.223/2011-01-18 is just so much easier to read than the plain text files
14:45:50 <elliott> although it could do with some nicer wrapping behaviour
14:47:10 <elliott> 21:37:50 <coppro> Sgeo: /ignore elliott
14:47:10 <elliott> 21:37:53 <coppro> then attempt to use it
14:47:10 <elliott> 21:38:11 <coppro> if you enjoy it and find it useful
14:47:10 <elliott> 21:38:20 <coppro> then go for it
14:47:10 <elliott> yes I'm an evil demon sent from hell that kicks puppies and eats kittens, interestingly though for the past N days the only things you have said in channel have been "WAAH MINECRAFT TALK :(" and "LOL ELLIOTT SUXX0Rz"
14:48:14 <ais523> elliott: I think you've annoyed most of the language fanboys in the world by using non-Rails Ruby to serve a website
14:48:20 <elliott> 20:54:46 <Sgeo> comex is in the Nimrod channel
14:48:23 <elliott> Sgeo: apparently he uses it
14:48:44 <elliott> ais523: oh, there are plenty of silly ruby webframeworks, i just went past rejecting web frameworks and rejected even using the http server library that ships with ruby
14:49:11 <ais523> elliott: I was making a reference to Rails fanboys in particular, who are some of the more obnoxious language fanboys
14:49:17 <elliott> ais523: here's a (slightly old but essentially the same) version of the http server code to demonstrate just how ugly it is: http://sprunge.us/KHVi
14:49:21 <elliott> and they're probably fuming
14:49:49 <elliott> ^ you can make requests to this http server with "<space>/foo"
14:49:53 <elliott> ^ you can make requests to this http server with "<space>/foo<newline>"
14:50:13 <ais523> hmm, I've just had an insane idea
14:50:31 <ais523> you know how many IRC clients color nicks, or color lines by nick
14:50:38 <ais523> so that different people look different?
14:50:53 <ais523> that runs into problems due to colors clashing, or else not staying consistent from use to use
14:51:03 <elliott> 21:10:54 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> "Whole program dead code elimination: Only used functions are included in the executable."
14:51:04 <elliott> 21:10:54 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I assume that's not making the claim that every single function that will never be called is always removed
14:51:04 <elliott> 21:10:54 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Is it?
14:51:04 <elliott> 21:10:54 <Sgeo> <manveru> Sgeo: it is
14:51:07 <elliott> Sgeo: What on earth is wrong with that...
14:51:09 <ais523> so the idea is: you color logs by nick, but very gradually change the colors from one color to another
14:51:26 <ais523> so that people get the same color as they had when they left when rejoining, but it now magically doesn't clash with anything else
14:51:34 <elliott> Sgeo: if the language doesn't have eval you can do that
14:51:44 <elliott> manveru is a rubyist i think...or at least used to be
14:52:08 <ais523> elliott: if it doesn't have eval, and doesn't have construction of function pointers at runtime
14:52:15 <elliott> Sgeo: indeed, manveru is the guy behind ramaze (the _original_ Yet Another Ruby Web Framework)
14:52:25 <ais523> although calling dead code via constructing the function pointer manually is dubious at best
14:52:32 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
14:52:34 <ais523> and I suppose would work just as well to call dead code inside a conditional
14:52:47 <elliott> 21:23:35 <Sgeo> "Thus it cannot represent an UTF-8 character, but a part of it. The reason for this is efficiency: for the overwhelming majority of use-cases, the resulting programs will still handle UTF-8 properly as UTF-8 was specially designed for this."
14:52:47 <elliott> you've developed a pattern of saying "fuck you" to any feature you don't like
14:52:49 <ais523> I've lost count of the number of times I've done if (0) { label: ... } in C
14:52:56 <Ilari> (unless dead code elimination eliminates that).
14:53:00 <elliott> pretty sure you should be nicer to language designers unless they're really terrible
14:53:11 <ais523> Ilari: we're discussing absurd failure modes of dead code elimination
14:53:58 <ais523> elliott: bug: /me (CTCP ACTION) leaves the trailing \x01 in
14:54:01 <Ilari> If linker is doing dead function elimination, it better be sure that the functions really are dead...
14:54:09 <ais523> is your logger still running, btw?
14:54:29 <ais523> wow, clog actually replied
14:54:43 <elliott> ais523: i'll fix that bug, thankfully it's a bug in the http server
14:54:47 <elliott> an advantage of logging raw
14:54:58 <ais523> [14:59] [CTCP] Sending CTCP-TEST request to #esoteric.
14:55:00 <ais523> [14:59] [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: TEST.
14:55:17 <ais523> bah, clog doesn't reply to ctcp source
14:55:34 <ais523> [15:00] [CTCP] Sending CTCP-ERRMSG request to clog.
14:55:36 <ais523> [15:00] [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
14:55:45 <ais523> elliott: but is it on an FTP server?
14:55:59 <ais523> CTCP SOURCE is specifically specified to specify an FTP server
14:56:02 <elliott> maybe i'll donate the copyrights to the FSF to become a GNU project
14:56:10 <ais523> umm, that sentence wasn't even deliberate
14:56:21 <elliott> (apparently, you automatically become a GNU project by doing that)
14:56:32 <ais523> `addquote [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
14:56:48 <HackEgo> 269) [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
14:56:55 <HackEgo> 91) <apollo> Actually, he still looks like he'd rather eat her than have sex with her.
14:57:07 <elliott> I don't remember that quote existing
14:57:10 <HackEgo> 112) <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
14:57:19 <HackEgo> 10) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
14:57:27 <ais523> that's an entirely different QDB!
14:57:35 <elliott> we can break the rules as much as we want!
14:57:42 <elliott> there's already Sine quotes in there, so who cares :P
14:57:51 <ais523> oh, what happened to the old one?
14:57:58 <elliott> ais523: an entirely different qdb?
14:58:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28226
14:58:12 <elliott> ais523: I /did/ trim a lot of the rubbish ones, but that was ages ago now
14:58:15 <elliott> and most of them are still there
14:58:40 <elliott> ais523: incidentally, if you can exploit the http server, you'll get root on rutian, since i cba to drop privileges after binding to port 80
14:59:17 <ais523> it seems a little unlikely there'd be an arbitrary code exploit in a Ruby program of that length
14:59:23 <ais523> also, don't I have root on rutian anyway, in theory?
14:59:31 <ais523> or is it a different rutian?
14:59:49 <elliott> ais523: well, I wiped it to run updog before, so "no", but yes, you could get it trivially
15:00:10 <ais523> hmm, is updog like dupdog?
15:00:22 <quintopia> ohey. where did updog go and what did it do while it was here?
15:00:34 <elliott> I took it down, and it replied to messages containing updog with "What's updog?"
15:00:57 <elliott> and now, I must design the language to trap Sgeo forever so that he shall never go looking for another language again
15:01:02 <elliott> time to consult the logs as to what I need to put in it
15:01:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:01:03 <ais523> what's the logbot called again?
15:01:14 <ais523> the one you just wrote, I mean?
15:01:33 <elliott> ais523: Herobrine, after http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/6/68/1283223082465.jpg (warning: image of mostly text)
15:02:00 <ais523> elliott: I suppose that's better than accidentally trying to watch a video in xterm
15:02:42 <ais523> I wanted vlc, so I used command-not-found to install it
15:02:51 <ais523> and it seems there's a command-line version of vlc that doesn't do graphics
15:03:01 <ais523> now, I had aalib installed for a different reason
15:03:04 <elliott> mplayer once played a video with -- yep
15:03:08 <elliott> except i think it was libcaca
15:03:19 <elliott> if only I had a 1920x1080 terminal
15:03:25 <elliott> ais523: probably libcaca, then
15:03:35 <ais523> probably was color actually, I doubt this screen was manufactured in the UK
15:03:55 <elliott> "I'm sorry, I can't view your colour photograph, I only have an American monitor"
15:04:53 <ais523> I need to try something along those lines on someone who's being really obtusely stupid at some point
15:05:12 <elliott> now, I need to get into the language-creating ZONE
15:05:22 <elliott> let's see... looking at my secret plans
15:05:55 <elliott> prototype-based homoiconic immutable everything-is-a-map symbolic URI-based hash-based language with complicated module system and an Active Worlds binding
15:06:06 <elliott> I think that's all I need to trap Sgeo forever
15:06:26 <ais523> for some reason, I mentally interpreted "homoiconic" as "only uses one character"
15:06:37 <ais523> but I doubt that would help
15:06:45 <ais523> also, what specifically is immutable?
15:08:11 <oerjan> <ais523> wow, clog actually replied <-- it replies to unknown ctcps but doesn't actually log them iirc
15:08:39 <Ilari> Hmm... "See here, I began my practice as a cardiologist in 1921 and never saw an Myocardial Infarction (heart attack) patient until 1928."... Heart attacks were pretty rare back then...
15:09:15 <elliott> 22:40:37 <pikhq> Huh. It's possible to destroy bedrock.
15:09:15 <elliott> 22:43:24 <pikhq> Bedrock has finite TNT resistance.
15:09:16 <elliott> 22:43:31 <pikhq> *Large*, but finite.
15:09:23 <elliott> pikhq: Impossible, you can't get a big enough explosion in one place.
15:09:39 <elliott> pikhq: ...also, #esoteric-minecraft
15:10:45 <Ilari> I saw video where huge amount of TNT blew a hole in the minecraft _world_ floor.
15:10:51 <ais523> aha, great discussion in thedailywtf sidebar
15:10:58 <ais523> they're busy talking about security holes in the .java format
15:11:13 <ais523> (not in Java programs themeselves; rather, malicious .java files that do nasty things if opened in an IDE)
15:11:29 <ais523> who cares about malicious binaries when you can have malicious source?
15:11:42 <elliott> Ilari: this seems to be that video
15:13:50 <ais523> hmm, massive virtual explosions are more interesting than malicious source files :(
15:13:59 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:14:23 <oerjan> <quintopia> ohey. where did updog go and what did it do while it was here? <-- we also suspect it of doing some secret message passing, thereby annoying elliott :D
15:14:37 <elliott> ais523: I was waiting for details
15:14:57 <elliott> but yes, explosions are pretty interesting
15:15:09 <quintopia> ais523: what's the name of the thread?
15:15:24 -!- cheater- has joined.
15:15:42 <ais523> the idea is, most Swing controls distinguish plaintext from html by looking for <html> at the start
15:15:59 <ais523> so you can randomly put bold or italics into your labels, or whatever, just by changing your internationalisation files
15:16:25 <ais523> this basically lets you XSRF arbitrary form controls with user-controllable text
15:16:42 <ais523> now, if an IDE is displaying, say, a list of methods in a class
15:17:12 <ais523> then you can put HTML in their documentation, and use the <img> element to get it to GET arbitrary URLs
15:17:42 <ais523> the thread confirmed that it works on both Eclipse and NetBeans
15:17:50 <elliott> ais523: i'm designing an ostensible esolang, for the sake of ontopicness you have to help
15:17:57 <elliott> also, Eclipse doesn't use Swing...
15:18:08 <ais523> indeed, but apparently what it does use has the same feature
15:18:16 <Ilari> Security gets really fun when you can have maliscous programs (not just maliscous input to honest programs).
15:18:31 <ais523> Ilari: this is malicious input to honest programs, though
15:18:41 <ais523> the malicious input happens to be program source code
15:19:01 <oerjan> <elliott> I think that's all I need to trap Sgeo forever <-- suggested name: goldbars
15:19:05 <ais523> it's like... imagine you had a compiler that was setuid for some reason, and there's a program you could feed it as input in order to get local root escalation
15:19:09 <Ilari> Reminds me when I found some security holes in one runtime (could be exploited by program doing some insane things).
15:19:38 <ais523> Ilari: generally if a security hole exploit isn't insane, it's found quickly by chance
15:19:47 <ais523> so most of the ones that aren't found for a while are
15:20:46 <Ilari> Like dereferencing suitable indexes in array (and those indexes were huge).
15:21:29 <oerjan> <Ilari> I saw video where huge amount of TNT blew a hole in the minecraft _world_ floor. <-- they should stick some _really_ nasty monsters under there :D
15:21:39 <elliott> ais523: hmm, you just passed up an opportunity to get the channel on topic
15:21:53 <elliott> oerjan: that may be unwise; map areas generated before halloween have holes dotted about the place in it :D
15:22:09 <ais523> elliott: I'm willing to help, just not sure how
15:23:11 <elliott> well, a lot of it is similar enough to http://enchiladacode.nl/ and http://will.thimbleby.net/misc/ which Sgeo responded positively to (especially MISC), which is where most of the feature list comes from, and so I'll probably end up stealing a bit of them
15:23:14 <Ilari> Like a monster that spits lit TNT blocks? :->
15:23:28 <elliott> Ilari: That's just a slightly scarier creeper :P
15:23:41 <elliott> i kind of expect sgeo to completely change what he likes in a language before i manage to get this done, but who cares, it's for science
15:25:05 <Ilari> And of course has some completely ridiculous amount of HP...
15:25:48 <quintopia> elliott: i know you don't have the attention span, but if you could implement such a language...and then specifically disinclude a handful of things that you know he'd want to do as even being /possible/ to do, while making the rest such a joy to use that he gets hooked on it anyway, then you would have the best language evar.
15:26:40 <quintopia> Ilari: no, the FSM should float below the level, and stick his noodly appendages up through the holes to grab anything moving
15:26:41 <elliott> quintopia: maybe i'll make a language that is SO GOOD, but only usable to people not at SUNY Farmingdale
15:26:58 <quintopia> elliott: that would just be doing him a favor :P
15:27:28 <Ilari> First reaction to monster like that (spits TNT blocks) would be RUN!
15:27:54 <ais523> it should spit blocks that after a few seconds either split into two blocks, or become lit TNT blocks, at random
15:28:06 <quintopia> second reaction: oh. wait. it'll kill itself eventually. *sit and wait*
15:28:25 <ais523> with the chance chosen such that it has a nonzero chance (around 50:50) that a single such block lasts indefinitely and eventually destroys the world
15:28:54 <Ilari> And of course it flies so high that TNT blasts won't damage it...
15:29:23 <quintopia> also the creature that does this should be hydra like so that killing it produces two of the original
15:29:36 <quintopia> and it should have very low HP so it kills itself with its own TNT all the time
15:30:01 <elliott> dear god you people, #esoteric-minecraft :-)
15:30:07 <elliott> or coppro will literally explode
15:30:20 <ais523> elliott: causing him to become two coppros?
15:31:21 <elliott> okay. in the zone. IN THE ZONE! ais523: can i direct my stream-of-thought about the language to you? monologuing feels so strange
15:31:25 <elliott> you can turn off ping notifications if you want
15:31:49 <ais523> if you like I'll even make random comments so that you don't think you're monologuing
15:32:59 <elliott> ais523: Obviously everything should be a map (and maps are ordered? Like Enchilada? Possibly, possibly not, MISC doesn't have them), and integers should be done similar to Enchilada, perhaps, everything should be a map, strings will be represented as just lists of integers, functions are probably just maps with symbolic elements so that they're kind of like a lazy infinite map? that way map access and function calls are the same i.e. a function is
15:32:59 <elliott> from input to output and if undefined values look up as nil which will be the empty map [], then every function is total too
15:33:18 <ais523> "ordered map" sounds worryingly like PHP
15:33:28 <elliott> PHP doesn't have ordered maps.
15:33:33 <elliott> it just does arrays as index -> value
15:33:38 <elliott> and that's hardly the worst thing about PHP by far
15:33:39 <ais523> it has arrays, which are key/value but ordered
15:34:02 <elliott> ais523: Enchilada has that funky thing where both keys and values are optional so it represents 0 as [], 1 as [=], 2 as [=;=] 3 as [=;=;=] etc.
15:34:08 <ais523> then why is it possible to sort them whilst keeping the keys and values the same?
15:34:13 <elliott> I should possibly steal that except that it seems a bit strange to be able to omit both keys and values,
15:34:43 <elliott> ...so then the choice is possibly between Enchilada style lists -- [=1;=2;=3] (same as [1;2;3]), no keys, but it's ordered and you can have duplicates OR
15:34:52 <elliott> MISC style [0:1 1:2 2:3] i.e. index:value
15:34:56 <elliott> ais523: good point I forgot about that
15:35:05 <ais523> a PHP array is like [1="one";2="two";3="three"] IIRC
15:35:08 <ais523> or maybe it starts at 0
15:35:15 <ais523> I don't know, it's PHP, it's unlikely to be consistent
15:35:17 <elliott> MISC maps are unordered though
15:35:24 <elliott> ...and so really this comes down to the choice of the basic structure again
15:35:40 <elliott> Enchilada maps are ordered trees of (key,value) pairs where both key and value are optional
15:35:41 <ais523> also, why is Google down?
15:35:43 <elliott> MISC maps are just associative maps
15:36:04 <elliott> ais523: it's not: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/google.co.uk
15:36:16 <ais523> <php.net> An array in PHP is actually an ordered map
15:36:26 <elliott> Oh yeah, Enchilada sequences also have a sign, but that's just crazy.
15:36:29 <elliott> It's how they do negative numbers.
15:36:30 <ais523> Yahoo!'s second result was the one I wanted, anyway
15:36:41 <ais523> elliott: heh, I have no idea how to do negative numbers in Underlambda
15:36:53 <elliott> ais523: with Enchilada, [] and _[] are distinct, for every sequence []
15:36:58 <ais523> I think I might just assume they don't exist, and have a library that does sign/magnitude, much like you might have a library to do floats
15:37:00 <elliott> ais523: and every operation works on both positive and negatives
15:37:25 <elliott> ais523: for operations that are arithmetic generalised to sequences, they work properly on negatives
15:37:31 <elliott> others use the sign to overload their behaviour
15:37:46 <elliott> Sgeo: Which do you prefer, prefix or postfix syntax?
15:38:11 <ais523> wow, this PHP documentation is full of special cases that don't make sense
15:39:00 <ais523> appending to an array picks the index after the previous last index for the next element, except if it's negative where what happens depends on what version of PHP you use
15:39:23 <ais523> also, there are a lot of statements saying things like "you cannot do X, if you do it causes a warning"
15:39:23 <elliott> ais523: Oh I forgot an extra-important feature, SANDBOXING, because Sgeo loves that, did I mention hotswapping too? Because hotswapping
15:39:40 <ais523> you just give your language few capabilities
15:39:50 <elliott> ais523: Naw, I'll do it PROPERLY.
15:40:27 <ais523> As mentioned above, if no key is specified, the maximum of the existing integer indices is taken, and the new key will be that maximum value plus 1. If no integer indices exist yet, the key will be 0 (zero).
15:40:28 <ais523> Note that the maximum integer key used for this need not currently exist in the array. It need only have existed in the array at some time since the last time the array was re-indexed. The following example illustrates:
15:40:53 <ais523> really, worst array object ever
15:41:04 <ais523> they should have just made it work like JS's; that one is also slightly insane, but not nearly that bad
15:41:13 <elliott> when I used PHP, I /didn't understand/ the concept of a library
15:41:42 <ais523> oh, I've been having various ideas for (
15:42:13 <ais523> it's a language that's superficially similar to C, but with all the semantics subtly different
15:42:40 <elliott> ais523: bonus points if you can make it obey the C standard to the letter
15:42:47 <ais523> such that they're a) more useful in practice, although further from the system, but b) cause programs to break randomly if their programmer tried to slip into C habits
15:43:06 <ais523> nah, that doesn't let me do fun things by making the language call-by-name
15:43:13 <elliott> that's more useful in practice? :D
15:43:39 <ais523> as it's more general, and can trivially simulate by-reference or by-value, which are the most commonly wanted conventions
15:43:52 <elliott> ais523: they're all equivalent
15:43:59 <elliott> oh, wait, you have mutability? how quaint!
15:44:30 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:44:46 <ais523> elliott: not quite: with immutability but with side effects, by-name and by-value are different
15:45:09 <elliott> ais523: the world is state, immutability precludes changing it
15:45:10 <ais523> as by-name doesn't force the evaluation of an argument unless it's actually used
15:45:22 <elliott> ais523: in the same way that the IO monad isn't purely functional
15:45:42 <elliott> wow, /me swears we've had that exact same exchange before, while I was in the exact same place on the minecraft server
15:45:43 <ais523> I was referring to languages like idealised algol in which you couldn't directly reference anything not immutable
15:46:01 <ais523> but you could have, say, pointers to mutable memory (which cannot be accessed except via the pointer)
15:46:13 <ais523> OCaml works like that too
15:46:21 <ais523> as do, I expect, other MLs
15:47:24 <quintopia> elliott: did you get deja vu on the previous occasion also?
15:47:31 <elliott> ais523: but not Amethyst! (Sgeo's language needs a name, if it turns out he doesn't like amethyst I'll rename it)
15:47:34 <ais523> gah, why on earth does this page about arrays have a discussion on why you should quote constant strings that you're using as array keys, but not the names of variables when you want to use their values as array keys?
15:47:45 <ais523> elliott: I thought you were calling it goldbars?
15:47:55 <elliott> ais523: that was oerjan's suggestion :P
15:48:00 <elliott> ais523: but, yes, sethinitely.
15:48:32 <ais523> still, why on earth would official documentation need to explain the distinction between a variable and a string in the definition of an entirely unrelated concept
15:48:46 <ais523> not to mention, at all, except once to explain the syntax for specifying a string?
15:49:23 <elliott> ais523: in /Amethyst/, strings are just maps!
15:49:53 <ais523> haha, that's similar to the view of the world that I like in esolangs
15:50:15 <elliott> ais523: this is disturbingly close to Ursala actually :)
15:50:33 <ais523> newtype t = ([t] -> [t])
15:50:39 <ais523> is basically the Underlambda view of the world
15:50:54 <elliott> ais523: *newtype T = T ([T] -> [T])
15:51:03 <ais523> haven't used Haskell in a while
15:51:07 <elliott> ais523: surely it also has a nil element?
15:51:16 <ais523> err, no, it doesn't need one
15:51:54 <ais523> the second is a much better choice for a nil the way underlambda works
15:51:57 <elliott> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Ursala i blame ais523
15:51:58 <ais523> that actually represents the number 1
15:52:07 <ais523> elliott: I didn't write that!
15:52:15 <elliott> ais523: you probably made all those examples!
15:52:21 <ais523> Ursala's fun to laugh at at a distance
15:52:27 <ais523> but I wouldn't want to actually /write/ in it
15:52:57 <elliott> ais523: sometimes, I worry that languages like Ursala are actually more brilliant than all of us ... then I wake up the next day, sober
15:53:17 <elliott> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Y_combinator#Ursala
15:53:31 <ais523> I don't think there's anything particularly insane about the basic concepts, it's just the execution is just wrong in so many ways
15:54:00 <ais523> oh right, I forgot that ursala used double-quotes for lambda variables
15:54:09 <ais523> I forget what it uses for strings
15:54:15 <elliott> hmm, any objections to me putting Herobrine in here?
15:54:21 <elliott> the log interface is nicer than clog's...
15:54:40 <ais523> I have no objection, multiple logbots is a good thing
15:54:40 <elliott> I'll even convert the clog logs into raw IRC format if I can
15:54:44 <ais523> ofc we should have clog logging as well
15:54:54 <elliott> since there has been no formatted interface to the logs in a long time
15:55:05 <elliott> remember going to ircbrowse.com? me too
15:55:26 <ais523> why does Ursala let you hot-swap fixed-point implementations for use in compiling recursive functions?
15:55:36 <ais523> it took me a while to realise that the operation even made sense
15:55:55 <ais523> it does at a logical level, in that there's no great implementation impediment to that being possible
15:56:01 <ais523> but I still can't figure out why you'd want to do it
15:56:37 <ais523> hmm, TIL that Ursala "x". means the same thing as Haskell \x ->
15:57:11 <ais523> "The fixed point combinator defined above is theoretically correct but inefficient and limited to first order functions, whereas the standard distribution includes a library (sol) providing a hierarchy of fixed point combinators suitable for production use and with higher order functions. A more efficient alternative implementation of my_fix would be general_function_fixer 0 (with 0 signifying the lowest order of fixed point combinators), or if that'
15:57:13 <ais523> s too easy, then by this definition."
15:57:33 <ais523> oh, I see, various fixed-point combinators only work on a subset of functions
15:57:54 <ais523> which worryingly implies that Ursala functions don't work quite the same way as mathematical ones
15:58:01 <elliott> ais523: oh, that actually makes sense
15:58:29 <elliott> ais523: it's talking about _all_ fixed points, not just the fix(f) := \x. f(fix(f))(x) definition
15:58:52 <elliott> ais523: e.g., fix(/2) == 0, but the above fix wouldn't find it, obviously
15:59:27 <oerjan> http://taw.chaosforge.org/amethyst/
15:59:48 <ais523> meh, just pick a name that's already in use and use that
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16:00:07 <elliott> I'll stick with Amethyst for now
16:00:21 <ais523> hmm, the PowerShell fixedpoint is pretty scary too
16:00:22 <elliott> ais523: uh oh, I think I've found something that doesn't fit into my glorious maps-all-the-way-down structure
16:00:37 <ais523> yes it does, just shoehorn it in
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16:01:27 <asiekierka_> ais523 Vorpal : what happened to yesterday's Vorpal vs. elliott battle?
16:01:46 <elliott> ais523: well, one thing I'm stealing from Enchilada is symbolic-ness
16:02:12 <ais523> asiekierka_: I thought you were there at the time?
16:02:20 <elliott> ais523: now, Enchilada does lambdas like {a b=b a} for swap
16:02:35 <elliott> ais523: but the way /I/ see it, functions are just infinite maps!
16:02:41 <asiekierka_> it ended in a giant while of silence and battle over the thread
16:02:55 <elliott> ais523: you should be able to say [a=a], and then whenever you look up 2, it notices that there's a symbolic key, and does the obvious
16:02:57 <ais523> elliott: I was teaching someone Perl, they decided that hashes were just non-infinite functions
16:03:01 <elliott> ais523: the problem is: what is "a", as maps?
16:03:05 <elliott> also, they sound quite bright
16:03:26 <elliott> ais523: did you then ruin their worldview with side-effects? :-)
16:03:28 <ais523> used to program a few decades ago but had dropped out of the field for a while
16:03:36 <ais523> so quite used to side-effects
16:04:04 <ais523> programming had moved on a lot since, but I restricted myself to demonstrating what imperative langs were like nowadays as it's all they needed for what they were doing
16:04:19 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I /could/ make [a=a] be the same as ["a"="a"], as in, a string
16:04:23 <ais523> and Perl because what they wanted to do was insanely suited to it
16:04:28 <elliott> ais523: but, of course, that would stop you using maps as maps from strings to values
16:04:34 <ais523> elliott: gah no, putting lambda variables in double quotes is an Ursala thing
16:04:36 <elliott> and also stops you using them for namespaces
16:04:39 <ais523> and you don't want to copy features from there
16:04:58 <elliott> ais523: hmm, if I gave every map a sign like in Enchilada, then [a=a] could be the same as [_"a"=_"a"]
16:05:15 <elliott> i.e., a negative map from integers to integers is a symbolic variable
16:05:16 <ais523> <Rosetta Code> Note that Perl 6 doesn't actually need a Y combinator because you can name anonymous functions from the inside:
16:05:32 <ais523> that sort-of makes sense, actually
16:05:38 <ais523> you could do that in Overload too, via pointer arithmetic
16:05:46 <ais523> (this is the sort of reason why Overload never got anywhere)
16:06:25 <ais523> although Overload was better in that you could name the entire call stack like that
16:06:40 <ais523> (probably you can in Perl 6 too, using an extended version of caller or something)
16:07:22 <ais523> hmm, should I go add INTERCAL examples to Rosetta Code?
16:07:23 <elliott> ais523: but negative maps seem so... ugly!
16:07:28 <ais523> now is a bad time, but it seems like it should be done sometime
16:07:43 <elliott> hmm, perhaps a singleton list of a string is a symbolic variable
16:07:45 <ais523> elliott: reminds me of Underload's distinction between quoting and non-quoting lists
16:07:57 <ais523> Underload doesn't do anything quite that insane
16:08:09 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/html/logo/ HTML5 logo unveiled, ugly
16:08:14 <ais523> but that is, incidentally, the reason Underload bans the <> characters
16:08:31 <elliott> ais523: I need everything to be only one wonderful unified structure, for homoiconicity!
16:08:33 <ais523> wow, that logo's like an old-fashioned superhero logo
16:08:50 <elliott> Why does it... NEED a logo?
16:08:50 <fizzie> It looks like an energy drink.
16:09:10 <ais523> elliott: Overload's almost homoiconic: everything's either a list (quoting or non-quoting), or a pointer
16:09:16 <elliott> The H stands for Hyper, the T stands for Teamwork, the M stands for Multiple banned ingredients, the L stands for LOTS OF MONEY FOR US.
16:09:34 <fizzie> The page also renders wrong in this Firefox 3.6.13 I have at work.
16:09:39 <ais523> adding pointers was probably what lead to the sheer insanity of the language
16:09:52 <ais523> imagine a language that is mostly purely functional, except a) you can modify code at runtime, and b) it has goto
16:10:21 <fizzie> (Oh, that was just the lack of scripts. Works with those.)
16:10:26 <ais523> oh, and calling a function's done by adding a goto at the end of it that jumps back to where you called it from
16:10:34 <ais523> if you want to call a function more than once, you copy it first
16:10:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Write error: Broken pipe).
16:11:40 <fizzie> Is it just me, or is the JavaScript support machinery -- http://www.w3.org/html/logo/js/modernizr.js -- behind that logo pretty ugly?
16:11:52 <fizzie> bodyElem.innerHTML = body.innerHTML.replace(tagRegExp, '<$1font');
16:11:56 <variable> fizzie, do you know what modernizer is?
16:12:08 <elliott> Modernizr is some kind of backport-HTML5-to-bad-browsers thing.
16:12:13 <fizzie> Well, it says what it is right at the top.
16:12:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:12:22 <fizzie> And it's not "modernizer", it's "modernizr".
16:12:22 <elliott> LOL WEB DEVELOPMENT SUCKS DICK
16:12:24 <ais523> [16:16] <ais523> this way, you can figure out the callstack inside a function by first using the command that returns a pointer to itself (i.e. when you call the command, you get a pointer to that specific instance of the command in question), then moving it to the end of the list, then following
16:12:33 <elliott> fizzie: Not according to its website!
16:12:37 <elliott> I guess they COMPRESSED THE FILENAME
16:13:19 <ais523> I can't even remember what the command was to get a pointer to follow another (i.e. the operation which in C would be written as *p = **p), but it was probably the same as the command for getting the head of a list or something like that
16:13:23 <fizzie> I don't see the e anywhere in http://www.modernizr.com/ either.
16:13:53 <variable> fizzie, I admit I added an "e" - ARE YOU HAPPY NOW ?
16:14:01 <fizzie> "modernizr" is a silly choice; it's still >8 characters. Should've been "mdrnzr".
16:14:20 <variable> fizzie, "mdrnzr" is silly. it should have been m.
16:14:32 <ais523> hmm, the Y combinator in J is crazy, almost as bad as the powershell one
16:14:46 <ais523> because J restricts functions to second-order
16:14:47 <fizzie> MDRNZR16.JS; see there's even space for version numbers.
16:14:54 <elliott> ais523: technically, not really
16:15:04 <elliott> ais523: it has verbs, and adverbs
16:15:09 <elliott> obviously, you can't verb verbs
16:15:15 <elliott> but you can adverb a verb to get another verb
16:15:22 <elliott> verbs have both subject and object
16:15:24 <ais523> elliott: yes, that's second order
16:15:34 <variable> elliott, they don't even use their own logo!
16:15:43 <ais523> so if you want to write a Y combinator in J, you have to do things like serialise the verbs so that verbs can act on them
16:15:54 <elliott> ais523: J already has a fixed-point combinator, though...
16:16:10 <ais523> the exercise was about implementing Y specifically
16:16:11 <elliott> At least I recall one existing.
16:16:19 <elliott> ais523: that's more alien to J than it is to C
16:16:26 <elliott> ais523: since you... don't loop or recurse, just about ever
16:16:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: functions taking first-order functions and outputting first-order functions
16:16:44 <elliott> first-order functions just take non-function values
16:16:48 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: functions that take first-order functions as arguments
16:17:01 <ais523> elliott: actually, taking a non-function as an argument and outputting a first-order function is arguably first-order
16:17:08 <elliott> ais523: kdb, an extremely-high-performance database widely used in the financial industry for millions and millions of records, written in J's cousin, K, purportedly contains not a single loop
16:17:17 <ais523> elliott: that doesn't surprise me
16:17:39 <ais523> well, it depends on what you mean by "loop", but I doubt it contains any imperative loops, they wouldn't make much sense in a lang that works like that
16:18:00 <elliott> ais523: nor functional loops (i.e. recursion)
16:18:14 <elliott> the closest you get to a loop in these languages are folds, and IIRC K doesn't actually have folds
16:18:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:18:33 <ais523> what about Unassignable-style loops, where data structures implicitly know how to iterate themselves?
16:19:32 <ais523> the most useful data structure in Unassignable is a "do X n times" constant where X is immutable, but n can be changed
16:19:36 <elliott> ais523: it's basically all done with the built-in array functions, a very common pattern is to add extra dimensions to an array to store various transformations on it, and then collapse them down
16:19:52 <ais523> elliott: hmm, that pretty much is looping, really
16:20:01 <ais523> it's sort-of like a map, just more structured
16:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f4dih/first_awesome_cave_find/
16:20:59 <ais523> wait, someone wrote Y in POP-11?
16:21:02 <ais523> this makes no sense at all
16:21:05 <elliott> ais523: well, you'd be hard-pressed to find a string of J code and point to a part and say, "there's the loop"
16:21:18 <ais523> the loops are everywhere
16:21:18 <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: actually, taking a non-function as an argument and outputting a first-order function is arguably first-orde
16:21:37 <elliott> ais523: the loops are everywhere == the loops are nowhere :)
16:21:45 <elliott> ais523: even "1+array" is a "loop" in J
16:21:48 <ais523> oerjan: arguably as in I'm prepared to argue it, if someone takes the other side of the argument
16:22:06 <oerjan> ais523: i was about to say, that's just currying
16:22:27 <ais523> oerjan: well indeed, it is just currying
16:22:32 <ais523> which is why it shouldn't increase the order
16:23:18 <ais523> oerjan: do you consider constant values, like constant integers, to be effectively zero-order functions?
16:23:21 <ais523> I can't remember if I do or not
16:24:26 -!- ais523 has left (?).
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16:24:35 <elliott> and they are, therefore, not functions
16:24:48 <ais523> elliott: aha, but you can't find a -1-order function to apply them /to/
16:25:13 <elliott> ais523: sure, you can make everything a function if you redefine the definition of function
16:25:24 <elliott> but integers aren't functions by any reasonable definition (ignoring e.g. church numerals)
16:26:19 <ais523> in Idealised Algol, all uses of integers in a program are effectively functions that take no argument and return the integer in question
16:26:28 <oerjan> well it's sort of degenerate anyway. in the same way they are 0-_argument_ functions
16:26:41 <elliott> oerjan: There is only one type of function, 1-argument :)
16:26:46 <ais523> same in all sorts of languages
16:27:12 <oerjan> elliott: but if you define n-argument functions for n > 1 then n=0 naturally means a non-function
16:27:51 <ais523> oerjan: well if you allow side-effects, 0-arg functions can be useful
16:28:02 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure we've quarreled about this before ;D
16:28:49 <ais523> meanwhile, it turns out that the people giving me the handouts for my Java tutorials snuck a regular expression into what was otherwise very simple code
16:29:13 <oerjan> ais523: hm yes. e.g. scala uses them for its call-by-name syntax iirc
16:29:24 <ais523> scala does call-by-name?
16:29:57 <ais523> (note: I'm really quite somewhat of a call-by-name advocate for any language with side effects, using that as your model for everything in your day job does that to you)
16:30:04 <elliott> oerjan knows anything about Scala?
16:30:15 <elliott> isn't he too...grumpy to look at new things?
16:30:34 <ais523> <Rosetta code> What makes this work is that all Clojure functions (thus rosetta-code defined here) implement the java.util.Comparator interface.
16:30:47 <oerjan> if you have an argument whose type is a 0-argument function, but write an expression that is of the type of its _result_ in its place, then it's implicitly converted to a function
16:30:55 <ais523> implementing a dynamically typed language on the JVM is done by getting everything to implement everything?
16:31:09 <oerjan> elliott: i looked at scala before i got this grumpy
16:31:25 <elliott> oerjan: oh, I forgot Scala is actually 2003 vintage
16:31:48 <ais523> oerjan: Algol-68 works a bit like that, it has some really complex rules to determine whether to coerce a function to its return type, then to void, or whether to just coerce it directly to void
16:31:48 * elliott ponders rewriting Herobrine in Haskell
16:31:51 <elliott> after all, everything should be written in Haskell
16:32:31 <ais523> oh right, this reminds me of something
16:32:48 <ais523> my boss was trying to argue to me a while back that Haskell contained imperative-style assignable variables, as long as you used the IO monad
16:33:09 <elliott> the IO monad is an imperative language
16:33:13 <elliott> an imperative, mutable language
16:33:19 <elliott> it is my least favourite part of haskell :)
16:33:25 <ais523> and gave "do { x <- 1; x <- x + 1; return x }" as an example, corrected for me misremembering syntax and types
16:33:49 <ais523> the statement about the IO monad is incidentally correct (although State would work better), the example is massively missing the point
16:34:03 <ais523> hmm, I think we had to insert some extra return statements in there to make it type
16:34:23 <ais523> but the point is that that isn't assignable variables at all, that's just SSA with lambda bindings
16:35:49 <ais523> I failed to come up with a counterexample blatant enough to prove that that's not how Haskell worked at all, though
16:36:19 <ais523> I tried removing the syntactic sugar but it didn't help
16:36:43 <ais523> also, apparently Mathematica's compare functions use True for greater than and False for less than
16:36:51 <ais523> I'm not sure what they use for equal, if anything
16:36:58 <elliott> http-server library: A library fro writing Haskell web servers.
16:37:27 <ais523> (in ), attempting to compare floating-point numbers is undefined behaviour if they happen to be exactly equal, unless one or both of them has multiple values at the time)
16:38:08 <ais523> mental auto-bracket-balancer caught me out there
16:38:39 <ais523> you can do, say, float f = 4; float g = 4.5; f += (0 || 1); if (f > g) printf("f > g\n"); if (f < g) printf("f < g\n");
16:38:41 <ais523> and get both lines to print
16:39:02 <elliott> ais523: why is it that every language designer ends up inventing superposed variables eventually?
16:39:12 <ais523> elliott: I didn't invent them, I stole them from Perl 6
16:39:19 <elliott> I always used to hate that I couldn't say, in PHP, ($x == (0 || 1 || 2))
16:39:47 <ais523> because it was necessary for something as simple as floating-point >= to not be as dangerous as gets
16:40:00 <ais523> (using it without superposing one of the variables /is/ gets-dangerous)
16:40:13 <ais523> you see, in (, floating point numbers are infinite precisoin
16:40:23 <ais523> and the way that's achieved, is via calculating them lazily
16:40:33 <elliott> ais523: erm you do know that equality on computable reals is undecidable?
16:40:35 <ais523> comparisons are the only thing that force them
16:40:45 <ais523> elliott: indeed, it is undecidable, that's precisely why it's undefined behaviour
16:41:05 <elliott> oerjan: can you attempt to convey to ais523 exactly what rabbit hole he's entered by using computable reals? :)
16:41:13 <ais523> elliott: not a deep one at all
16:41:22 <ais523> because you can compute them to any number of decimal places
16:41:27 <oerjan> UNDECIDABILITY OF EQUALITY
16:41:40 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:41:44 <elliott> ais523: YOU DO REALISE YOU BASICALLY NEED PROOFS TO DO THINGS PROPERLY
16:41:53 <ais523> now, what > does is just keep calculating decimal places of both numbers until it finds a mismatch
16:42:10 <ais523> this is guaranteed to happen eventually if you superpose with addition of a nonzero number
16:42:25 <ais523> if you don't, well, I warned you you might get an infinite loop
16:42:28 <oerjan> also, UNDECIDABILITY OF DECIMALS IF NOT INFINITE
16:42:50 <oerjan> e.g. you cannot distinguish 1 from 0.9999999999999999999999999999999...
16:42:59 <ais523> yes, I'm aware of that
16:43:13 <ais523> this is actually just a limitation of the language, it's there explicitly as a trap for programmers
16:44:04 <ais523> but even if one number's on a knife-edge between 1 and 0.9 recurring, that doesn't block comparisons unless the other number is as well
16:44:10 <ais523> in which case it's undefined behaviour
16:45:12 <ais523> elliott: can you not just let me do something that's theoretically insane, then push all the problems onto the user and claim it's their fault?
16:45:37 <elliott> i thought you said it was meant to be more useful in practice :D
16:45:52 <ais523> elliott: well, it /is/, for sufficient values of useful in practice
16:46:01 <ais523> umm, sufficiently small
16:46:39 <ais523> there are other things like arrays automatically expanding when you address outside or before them
16:46:50 <ais523> with all pointers being tied to a particular array
16:47:00 <ais523> (and all variables being implicitly inside a 1-element array)
16:47:13 <ais523> this sounds useful, but messes up some corner cases with pointer arithmetic quite badly
16:47:24 <ais523> mostly involving multidimensional arrays
16:49:23 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> i thought you said it was meant to be more useful in practice :D <ais523> elliott: well, it /is/, for sufficient values of useful in practice <ais523> umm, sufficiently small
16:49:24 <HackEgo> 270) <elliott> i thought you said it was meant to be more useful in practice :D <ais523> elliott: well, it /is/, for sufficient values of useful in practice <ais523> umm, sufficiently small
16:50:02 <ais523> elliott: basically the strategy I'm going with is similar to the one the C++ committee is using
16:50:12 <ais523> think of a feature that's at least mostly backwards-compatible
16:50:15 <elliott> ais523: so you're going to be insane all on your own?
16:50:20 <ais523> then just add it without worrying about the implications
16:50:42 <ais523> although in this case, insufficiently many negative implications are a drawback
16:51:37 <ais523> oh, luckily the C course is mostly over, although I still have two exercises to mark
16:51:51 <ais523> this term I'm still teaching Java, but also GPGPU programming
16:52:01 <ais523> which I don't know that much about, but which I know more about than the students I'm helping
16:52:08 <ais523> most of them, at least
16:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what did you actually /do/ when they did that sizeof thing?
16:52:33 <elliott> dammit, there appears to be no ogdl parser for ruby
16:52:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: sizeof of a function argument in order to determine how large the array in question is?
16:53:05 <ais523> nothing but shake my head sadly afterwards and tell everyone on IRC, as that was one of the other tutors
16:53:24 <ais523> at least, pointed out the mistake
16:53:33 <ais523> but gave up when they said it had to be incorrect because netbeans didn't autocomplete it
16:54:25 -!- jcp has quit (Excess Flood).
16:54:59 <elliott> ais523: wow, Ruby supports using a newline as the q delimiter, does perl?
16:56:15 <ais523> elliott: it skips the newline and interprets the next character as the q delimiter instead
16:56:27 <ais523> which means that you can actually use letters as a q delimeter that way
16:57:01 <elliott> hmm, oerjan: can you kick the user that's about to come in? I want to test something
16:57:10 -!- hellobar has joined.
16:57:17 <hellobar> I'm elliott and I'm EVIL, kick me
16:57:22 <ais523> elliott: it would be hilarious if a newbie joined just then
16:57:52 <ais523> elliott: your invisible friend is hacking your router again!
16:59:44 <ais523> wow, I'm only about 20% of the way through PHP's documentation for the array type
16:59:48 <ais523> how can it be that complicated?
17:00:01 <elliott> ais523: are you an op in here?
17:00:17 -!- jcp has joined.
17:00:40 <ais523> hmm, apparently in PHP you get to choose what index your arrays start from when creating them
17:01:45 <elliott> ais523: tell oerjan to kick hellobar
17:01:57 <ais523> why would I do such a thing?
17:02:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, your invisible friend has hacked your router before?
17:02:23 <elliott> ais523: because I need to see for Herobrine, dammit
17:02:34 <elliott> hmm, i could make shutup come back in here and get it kicked
17:02:36 <ais523> Herobrine isn't actually here
17:03:12 <elliott> ais523: he's going to come in to log
17:03:15 <elliott> but I'm revamping the impl first
17:03:19 <elliott> to do thinsg like support multiple channels
17:03:33 <ais523> well, are you personally logging this in herobrine format?
17:03:40 <ais523> if not, you won't get the example you're looking for
17:03:55 -!- hellobar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:04:20 -!- hellobar has joined.
17:04:22 <ais523> that would explain why you pinged out, at least
17:04:34 <hellobar> KICKMEKICKMEKICKEMCIEMCIKECIEMCIE OERJAN OERJAN OERJAN
17:04:50 <ais523> however, does the text you see when you're kicked compare to the text you see when someone else is kicked?
17:05:10 <ais523> also, what if someone decides to take over your computer via a remote terminal keybinding injection attack?
17:05:43 <hellobar> I just want to see what it looks like when you get parted from a channel, so Herobrine can rejoin
17:05:49 <hellobar> (not necessarily because of being kicked)
17:05:58 <ais523> can't you just part it, then?
17:06:11 <ais523> the part command works over nc too...
17:06:22 -!- ais523 has left (?).
17:06:23 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:06:29 <hellobar> *you *are parted*, not when you *part*
17:07:04 <ais523> is there any cause but a kick for that?
17:07:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
17:07:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:08:51 -!- hellobar has quit (Client Quit).
17:11:11 <elliott> ais523: more Amethyst design:
17:12:00 <elliott> ais523: every object has a URI. usually this URI will just be a URN like urn:amethyst:...
17:12:05 <elliott> where ... is, say, a sha-512 hash of the object
17:12:46 <ais523> I didn't even think of applying hash-based URLs to that
17:12:50 <elliott> ais523: now, the syntax <...> (or perhaps (...)) parses (not evaluates) to the object of that URI
17:13:06 <elliott> ais523: for instance, say version 1.0 of the standard library is urn:amethyst:deadbeef
17:13:09 <ais523> even though a while ago, I was wondering about a programming language where everything was pointers into a massive hash table that took up all of memory
17:13:21 <elliott> Stdlib: <urn:amethyst:deadbeef>
17:13:27 <elliott> will let you use the Stdlib map
17:13:41 <elliott> if the interpreter doesn't have something with that hash cached, that's a parse error
17:14:03 <elliott> hmm, it should be urn:sha512:
17:14:16 <elliott> actually, forget the urn thing
17:14:33 <elliott> what if you want to point the interpreter to tell it where it can get a hold of that map?
17:14:36 <ais523> wouldn't that require bruteforcing hashes?
17:14:47 <elliott> ais523: no, it only works if the interpreter has something with the hash deadbeef cached
17:14:54 <elliott> e.g., in /usr/lib/amethyst/deadbeef
17:15:09 <elliott> Stdlib: <deadbeef=http://amethyst.org/stdlib/1.0>
17:15:12 <elliott> that URL would contain Amethyst code
17:15:16 <elliott> and the resulting object must hash to deadbeef
17:15:26 <elliott> <foo> is shorthand for <foo=urn:sha512:foo>
17:15:43 <elliott> ais523: this also provides security against tampering
17:15:48 <elliott> if the stdlib is changed to have malware in it, the verification will fail
17:15:56 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
17:16:04 <ais523> also makes it impossible to upgrade a system ever again?
17:16:04 <elliott> oerjan: you kick /hellobar/
17:16:11 <elliott> ais523: but-- what if you only want a certain API, not a defined implementation?
17:16:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
17:16:21 <elliott> ais523: you use an "API hash"
17:16:39 <elliott> ais523: which is, essentially, a hash of a hash like:
17:16:58 <elliott> [SomeName:[open:[]; close:[]]]
17:17:11 <elliott> ais523: and it'd have open and close in it
17:17:21 <ais523> wait, you're currently hashing hashtables
17:17:26 <ais523> and abbreviating both to "hash"
17:17:30 <elliott> they're not hashtables, they're trees
17:17:33 <ais523> this is making the conversation more confusing than it should be
17:17:59 <elliott> if you have saf98y495jgkz cached locally
17:18:08 <elliott> and its object evaluates to have meta-info (every map has a meta-map) like this:
17:18:18 <elliott> [...]@[provides:[SomeName:[open:[]; close:[]]]]
17:18:24 <elliott> and that provide thing hashes to deadbeef
17:18:29 <elliott> then that would be used as the implementation
17:18:30 <oerjan> hashish tables are r/trees
17:18:43 <elliott> SomeName: ~deadbeef <oidjgs0=http://...>
17:18:48 <elliott> ais523: which means, if you don't have a preferred implementation, use this one
17:19:15 <elliott> ais523: now, note how module names are *unbreakably* unique, modulo the hash function
17:19:31 <elliott> ais523: oh come on, that's not enterprisey, that's hideously impractical but fu
17:20:26 <oerjan> functions otoh are just functionally unique
17:20:38 <elliott> ais523: actually this is basically enchilada's system but modified
17:20:53 <elliott> (P1asW6BED++fOl4o86DsE5DVYdU=) == 1 2 3
17:20:54 <elliott> if the interp knows where to find that hash
17:20:59 <elliott> with mine, I just turn it into a module system using URIs
17:21:14 <ais523> elliott: I just tried to interpret that hash as Ursala
17:21:16 <elliott> ais523: see, if you were Sgeo, you'd be going "oooooh", and that's my design goal
17:21:26 <ais523> and failed, mostly because I don't know Ursala well enough
17:22:02 <elliott> ugh, my program needs a total restructuring to do this
17:22:17 <ais523> you're actually /writing/ Amethyst?
17:22:50 <elliott> ais523: but yes, I plan to!
17:22:58 <elliott> ais523: the horrible thing is, some of these ideas are actually /good/
17:23:12 <elliott> ais523: for instance, functions as just maps with symbolic keys
17:23:31 <ais523> elliott: that's the case with all esolangs
17:23:35 <ais523> INTERCAL is full of bad ideas
17:23:43 <ais523> just it has even more bad ideas
17:24:09 <ais523> I'd love to see modern INTERCAL's control structure in something that didn't have such hideously unusable expressions
17:24:44 <elliott> ais523: "fib: ^[0:0; 1:1; [+ n 2]: [+ [fib [+ n 1]] [fib n]]]"
17:25:08 <elliott> because every [f ...] is a regular function application
17:25:13 <oerjan> don't believe him, he's just fibbing you
17:25:20 <elliott> in this case, [+ n 2] evaluates to [+ n 2], because n is symbolic
17:25:20 <ais523> quote being a function rarely makes sense anyway
17:25:29 <ais523> unless it's like a in Underload
17:25:32 <elliott> and the right-hand-side just evaluates to [+ [fib [+ n 1]] [fib n]]
17:25:36 <ais523> and just requoting something that's already data
17:25:46 <elliott> it runs out of options, finds the symbolic one
17:25:54 <elliott> fills in "1" for n, thus binding n to 1
17:25:56 <elliott> and looks at the right hand side
17:26:21 <elliott> ais523: this also means that all of a function's body which /can/ be constant-folded /is/
17:26:25 <elliott> because the body is actually evaluated
17:26:38 <ais523> elliott: hey, doing italics like that is my thing!
17:26:49 <ais523> also, at least one Underload interp works like that
17:26:55 <elliott> ais523: interestingly, this can actually memoise automatically trivially
17:27:05 <elliott> as in, when you resort to a symbolic expression, store the new result in the tree
17:27:56 <elliott> ais523: actually, I think you can avoid that evaluation
17:28:31 <elliott> test: ^[x: ^[+ ,x 1]]; test2: ^[x: [eval [test x]]]
17:28:46 <elliott> ais523: obviously, ^[+ ,x 1] -> ^[+ ,x 1], because, again, symbolic
17:28:53 <ais523> hmm, esolang idea: an esolang which is relatively simple and not unusual at all, and easy to implement, perhaps a BF derivative
17:28:55 <elliott> but when you fill an x in, it turns into the _map_ [+ 3 1] for instance
17:29:03 <ais523> with the only unusual feature being that programs aren't actually run
17:29:07 <elliott> [test 3] is-the-same-code-as ^[+ 3 1]
17:29:11 <ais523> a correct interp just reads the program and ignores it
17:29:22 <ais523> although programs still have their semantics defined
17:29:29 <elliott> test2's [eval [test x]] becomes [eval ^[+ ,x 1]]
17:29:32 <elliott> which then ... eh, I'm confused myself
17:29:37 <elliott> the expansion _doesn't_ happen at compile-time
17:29:40 <elliott> because the function is quoted, of course
17:30:30 <elliott> ais523: this language is very confusing
17:30:50 <ais523> elliott: that could be said about basically any esolang, and a lot of non-eso langs too
17:31:04 <ais523> and it's not going to get anywhere near as confusing as Feather
17:31:17 <elliott> incidentally, I ran into the same "issue" MISC did and fixed it in I think the same way
17:31:32 <ais523> isn't there an esolang called MISC?
17:31:34 <elliott> basically, you think that 2 is (say) [[]:1] = [[]:[[]:[]]]
17:31:37 <elliott> yes, but it's not that one
17:31:39 <ais523> some OISC variant, IIRC
17:31:46 <elliott> you could define a variable named [[]:[[]:[]]]
17:31:50 <elliott> because variable definitions are just map entries
17:31:55 <elliott> 2 is _actually_ ^[[]:[[]:[]]]
17:32:01 <elliott> but then how do you reference the variable named 2?
17:32:10 <elliott> yes, that's right: [eval 2] != 2
17:32:26 <elliott> usually, [eval 2] = 0, in fact, because 0 = [] = nil, and that's what an undefined lookup results in
17:32:28 <ais523> [eval x] != x barring a huge coincidence
17:32:36 <elliott> ais523: (eq? (eval 2) 2) in Scheme
17:32:48 <elliott> because (eval 'x) is the same as x, and 2 is the same as '2
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17:32:55 <elliott> ais523: eval doesn't operate on strings here
17:33:12 <ais523> it initialises #4 to 4, etc
17:33:23 <ais523> that's what Scheme's doing there, setting constants to their own values
17:33:43 <ais523> there's no reason why a constant's value should be equal to the constant itself...
17:33:59 <elliott> oh man, I'm an awful person, I looked at the MISC guy's homepage, saw "MacSword: A bible reading program, for Mac OS X.", and my mind got indignant
17:34:05 <elliott> oerjan is more right than I'd like him to be
17:34:16 <elliott> ais523: hmm, one issue with ^
17:34:31 <elliott> isn't that non-homoiconic?
17:35:02 <ais523> homoiconicity doesn't imply you don't have syntax errors
17:35:13 <elliott> ais523: why should ^^[1 2 3] be a syntax error
17:35:18 <elliott> every expression should be quotable
17:35:25 <ais523> same reason ''(1 2 3) is in Lisp
17:35:47 <ais523> quoting's a compile-time thing, not a run-time thing
17:35:52 <elliott> ais523: ''(12 3) is NOT a syntax error in Lisp, dude...
17:36:08 <elliott> ais523: it results in the list (quote (1 2 3))
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17:36:48 <ais523> as is quote pretending to be a function at all
17:37:08 <elliott> I realise you like to define "Lisp" as "my pet language almost, but not entirely, unlike Lisp", but that is not relevant.
17:37:48 <ais523> well, (quote (+ 1 2 3)) would obviously return the same thing as (quote 6) if quote were a function
17:37:57 <elliott> ais523: But anyway, if ^^[1 2 3] is a syntax error, presumably there is no object that corresponds to the syntax "^[1 2 3]"
17:38:02 <elliott> ergo, the language is not homoiconic
17:38:15 <elliott> ais523: (f ...) is not just function application in lisp, so there is no pretending
17:38:18 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: But anyway, if ^^[1 2 3] is a syntax error, presumably there is no object that corresponds to the syntax "^[1 2 3]"
17:38:18 <elliott> <elliott> ergo, the language is not homoiconic
17:38:22 <ais523> hmm, I think I give up trying to figure out what homiconic actually means
17:38:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if is a special form?
17:38:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: don't talk to ais523 about Lisp, he becomes a troll
17:38:50 <ais523> setq I can understand, it's a weird abbreviation for set ' that doesn't actually save characters
17:39:08 <ais523> is cond an actual function, at least?
17:39:12 <elliott> ais523: how can you write a program that transforms an arbitrary Amethyst program into another?
17:39:18 <elliott> ais523: are you saying that ^[foo ^x] is invalid?
17:39:24 <elliott> because that's /ridiculous
17:39:33 <elliott> ais523: what object does ^[foo ^x] result in?
17:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, in CL, if is a special form and cond is a macro that uses if
17:39:48 <elliott> ais523: so why is ^^[1 2 3] a syntax error
17:39:53 <elliott> rather than resulting in ^[1 2 3]
17:39:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: CL is not defined that way
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17:40:06 <ais523> I think, because it's on the LHS
17:40:07 <elliott> special forms can be implemented as macros
17:40:23 <ais523> elliott: what object does [[1 2 3] 4] result in?
17:40:39 <elliott> or if it is, show me it, written in map form
17:40:49 <ais523> so [[1 2 3] 4] results in the same object as ^[[1 2 3] 4]?
17:41:09 <elliott> The whole point of homoiconicity is that you don't need to condition on what type of node your transformer is receiving
17:41:12 <elliott> if there are two data types
17:41:18 <elliott> then this is completely destroyed
17:41:29 <ais523> I still don't understand part of this, though
17:41:36 <ais523> ^[[1 2 3] 4] results in [[1 2 3] 4], right?
17:41:48 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:41:53 <elliott> [[1 2 3] 4] tries to apply 1 to 2 3, and then the result to 4
17:41:59 <elliott> which will almost certainly result in nil
17:42:00 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
17:42:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: please, stop confusing the issue
17:42:06 <Vorpal> this hardware is haunted or something
17:42:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it depends on what quote means, which I'm not sure I understand
17:42:38 <elliott> ais523: What I'm saying is that ^x _must_ be the same as [quote x] or similar.
17:42:55 <elliott> Or homoiconicity is ruined and the language's purity is completely gone, it introduces a huge swathe of special-cases.
17:42:58 <Vorpal> which language are you talking about?
17:43:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Amethyst, and don't bother googling
17:43:10 <elliott> it's the language I will entrap Sgeo in forever
17:43:41 <Vorpal> elliott, Amber, Amethyst. Hm a pattern!
17:43:44 <elliott> ais523: consider this program transformer, that lets you write RPN
17:43:58 <ais523> hmm, does [a [b c]] in Amethyst work much like (a (b c)) in Lisp? as in, is [b c] evaluated and then a evaluated with the result, or is a evaluated with [b c], or something else?
17:44:07 <elliott> ais523: [rpn ^[[1 2 *] 3 4 +]] --> [+ [* 1 2] 3 4]
17:44:10 <Vorpal> elliott, except it turns out Amber isn't really stone. And for entrapping Amber would be more suitable. ;P
17:44:12 <elliott> ais523: I can easily write this:
17:45:03 <elliott> ais523: rpn: ^[prog: [if [== [first prog] ^quote] prog [cons [last prog] [map rpn [all-but-last prog]]]]]]]]]]]]lots of ]s
17:45:21 <elliott> ais523: if ^x is not the same as [quote x], then we can't process all code as one data structure
17:45:26 <elliott> and homoiconicity is ruined
17:45:37 <elliott> but yes, [a [b c]] is the same as (a (b c)) pretty much
17:45:40 <ais523> but I'm trying to work out how [quote x] can possibly quote anything at all
17:45:44 <elliott> incidentally you can do keyword arguments like this
17:45:47 <ais523> because surely x would be evaluated first?
17:45:53 <elliott> ais523: no, because it's a special-case
17:46:09 <elliott> ais523: the same way processing ^ differently to any other character, or [, or ], or :, or ; is a special case
17:46:11 <ais523> doesn't that just defeat the whole point?
17:46:29 <ais523> hmm, I think you can remove the special case by making the lang call-by-name
17:46:30 <elliott> ais523: Maybe it makes the point less perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than not being able to nest quotes!
17:46:39 <elliott> ais523: that's the Io solution
17:46:41 <elliott> pass all arguments unevaluated
17:46:48 <ais523> in fact, the only purpose of call-by-name seems to be to remove special cases
17:46:51 <elliott> Sgeo liked that, so maybe I'll do it :)
17:47:04 <elliott> ais523: so then it'd be "quote: [x: x]", right?
17:47:24 <ais523> err, you seem to have changed syntax
17:47:27 <Vorpal> ais523, call by name? as opposed to call by address?
17:47:29 <ais523> quote works just fine call-by-name
17:47:36 <ais523> Vorpal: do you know what call-by-name actually is?
17:47:37 <elliott> ais523: show me an impl of quote in call-by-name
17:48:08 <Sgeo> #ioke is currently being spammed by a bot
17:48:22 <elliott> Sgeo: Prefix notation or postfix notation, which do you prefer.
17:48:30 <ais523> elliott: \f -> \x -> f x
17:49:11 <elliott> Sgeo: What were the DISLIKEABLE things you saw in MISC?
17:49:14 <ais523> elliott: because all quoting does is prevent something being evaluated instantly, right?
17:49:14 <Sgeo> I suppose I should describe what I like in a name
17:49:20 <Sgeo> I like Googleability
17:49:26 <ais523> oh, wait, I really screwed up there
17:49:29 <elliott> Sgeo: in a _name_? answer my damn question!
17:49:36 <elliott> ais523: that's either the same as (\f -> f), or you broke eta-expansion, congrats
17:50:25 <ais523> elliott: eta-expansion is broken anyway in a lang with side effects, I muddled up quote with something else
17:51:08 <Sgeo> Function definions seemed a bit long-winded. Lambda should probably be called something like \, and it should come with a function that takes the same arguments lambda takes, plus a name, and puts it in the environment. Unless I'm misunderstanding, and there's no way to put functions in the environment
17:51:11 <ais523> Sgeo: is Googleability the only factor?
17:51:30 <Sgeo> ais523, in a name?
17:51:59 <oerjan> the The programming language
17:52:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Here's a squaring fucntion in Amethyst: [x: [* x x]]
17:53:21 <elliott> Sgeo: Here's a squaring function in Amethyst except that squaring 2 gets you -3 because why not: [-2: -3; x: [* x x]]
17:53:45 <Sgeo> What about multi-argument functions? Also, that example confuses me
17:54:01 <elliott> Sgeo: Why does it confuse you?
17:55:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:55:22 <Sgeo> Because -2 is a constant that the function treats specially, but x is just a variable name for use inside the thing
17:55:29 <Sgeo> Also, why is it call-by-name?
17:55:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:55:46 <elliott> Sgeo: Don't you worry your head about that, we haven't solidified the details. But it means less special cases.
17:55:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, that's due to symbolicness!
17:56:07 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, that function is the same as a map.
17:56:11 <elliott> Sgeo: It's just an infinite, lazy map.
17:56:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Whenever a value is looked up, it'll decide it's not -2, notice the symbolic entry works if we set x=4 or whatever our input is, and evaluate the right-hand side with that value substituted.
17:56:43 <Sgeo> What does [-2: -3; x: [* x x]; y: [y - 1]] do?/
17:56:44 <elliott> Sgeo: The best thing is, it then remembers!
17:56:50 <elliott> [x: intensive computation]
17:56:54 <elliott> Calling it for any x will then cache the result.
17:56:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:57:01 -!- myndzi has joined.
17:57:08 <elliott> This means that a naive Fibonacci implementation is O(n), not O(fib(n)).
17:57:10 <elliott> ais523: hmm, how would you extend loggic to handle multiple channels?
17:57:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Not sure. One possibility is that would never look at the y case, because the map is ordered.
17:58:03 <ais523> elliott: have it join multiple channels, split them later
17:58:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Another possibility is that it would be a syntax error, or the same as [-2: -3; y: [- y 1]], because the latter overrides the former at parse time.
17:58:26 -!- j-invariant has joined.
17:58:32 <ais523> nick-change methods might be a little problematic as they only happen once, though, and aren't pegged to the channel
17:58:51 <ais523> elliott: anyway, I figured out how I did quote in my Unlambda to Underlambda compiler
17:59:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Did I mention this has macros?
17:59:18 <ais523> I did it by adding an unquote function to every single other command, with quote being the only function that didn't have it
17:59:28 <ais523> making quote not a special case is hard; but making unquote not a special case is easy
17:59:43 <ais523> and quote literally was an eta-expanded identity there
17:59:48 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, call semantics are like Io and Ioke.
17:59:56 <elliott> Sgeo: Functions get the unevaluated code as their parameter.
18:00:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Did I mention it's lazy?
18:00:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Let me tell you about the module system now.
18:00:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Naming collisions are *completely impossible*.
18:00:56 <elliott> Sgeo: DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE?
18:01:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Every object has a URI.
18:01:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Usually, this URI just looks like urn:sha512:longhashgoeshere.
18:02:09 <elliott> Sgeo: But if you publish an object (map) on, say, the web, by putting its source code up you can refer to that object with that URI.
18:02:17 <elliott> olsner: ssh, I'm stopping Sgeo ever using another language again
18:02:29 <elliott> Sgeo: Here's how you refer to an object at a URI.
18:02:51 <elliott> Sgeo: (hashgoeshere|http://amethyst.org/stdlib/1.0)
18:02:55 <Sgeo> What about that problem you previously noted... oh
18:02:58 <elliott> Stdlib: (hashgoeshere|http://amethyst.org/stdlib/1.0)
18:03:07 <elliott> Sgeo: This checks that the stdlib has the correct hash.
18:03:15 <olsner> hmm, the language is "assembly", and the tool you assemble it with is an "assembler"? I use them interchangeably
18:03:16 <Sgeo> Hence me saying oh
18:03:23 <elliott> Sgeo: But if the implementation has it cached, it will use that instead.
18:03:27 <elliott> Sgeo: For instance, you could just say:
18:03:37 <elliott> and if the implementation has that hash (as it would, for the standard library), it will use it.
18:03:41 <elliott> This can also be used as a database.
18:03:47 <ais523> olsner: the language is assembly language or assembler; the tool is always an assembler
18:03:53 <elliott> Sgeo: But! What if a bug in the stdlib was fixed without changing the interface?
18:03:56 <ais523> and "an assembly" is a .NET-related term
18:04:07 <elliott> Sgeo: This is handled with an "API hash".
18:04:20 <elliott> Sgeo: An API hash for the standard library might look like this, assuming the only functions in it were foo and bar:
18:04:28 <j-invariant> I thoguht you said... This is handled with an API pattern
18:04:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:04:42 <elliott> Sgeo: [[Stdlib; 1]: [foo: []; bar: []]]
18:04:52 <elliott> Sgeo: The _hash of this map_ is the "API hash".
18:05:01 <elliott> Sgeo: Say it's foobarbaz. You could use the stdlib like this:
18:05:02 <olsner> ais523: sweet, then I've been right all along when coding in assembler
18:05:13 <elliott> Stdlib: (~foobarbaz|http://amethyst.org/stdlib/1.0)
18:05:23 <elliott> Sgeo: The integer in [Stdlib; 1] would be incremented every time a breaking API change is made.
18:05:38 <elliott> Sgeo: But, you say, how would a module declare that it supports this interface? Easy.
18:05:45 <elliott> Sgeo: You know how in MISC, every map has another map attached to it, as metadata?
18:06:11 <elliott> Sgeo: The same applies to Amethyst. Let's call the map [[Stdlib; 1]: [foo: []; bar: []]] "StdlibAPI", for conciseness.
18:06:32 <elliott> Sgeo: You would write: [...the stdlib implementation...]@[provides: [StdlibAPI; AnotherAPI; Etc]]
18:06:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Amethyst would check that it does indeed obey the API requested.
18:06:58 <elliott> Sgeo: All this is done sandboxed, so a malicious library (if you just specify an API hash and not a map hash) can't do anything the program doesn't let it.
18:07:19 <Sgeo> Will this language ever be implemented?
18:07:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Have you FALLEN IN LOVE yet, or do I need to tell you about the HOTSWAPPING?
18:08:01 <Sgeo> I want to hear about it
18:08:19 <elliott> Sgeo: You can hotswap. Any questions?
18:09:27 -!- Tritonio has joined.
18:09:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Here's something you might like that I'm considering: Infix math by default.
18:09:48 <Sgeo> Only if I could easily and sens.. actually
18:09:55 <Sgeo> I really don't see how that would work
18:10:14 <elliott> Sgeo: I'll explain it simply.
18:10:20 <Gregor> I am holding in my hand one of those many Apple display adaptors. Someone explain to me its existence. This one is a DVI-to-DVI adapter. Yes, that's right ... one end DVI male, one end DVI female, it is in essence a 1-inch DVI extension. It's not even like either side is some weird Apple I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-DVI, both are normal DVI.
18:10:40 <elliott> Sgeo: The name "2" is bound to a function that takes a function, and another object, and does [function 2 object].
18:10:41 <ais523> Gregor: is it wired straight?
18:10:43 <ais523> it might change the pinout
18:11:00 <ais523> you can imagine a patch to null-modem serial adapter which would have that sort of pinout
18:11:05 <Gregor> ais523: That ... is a horrifying possibility. I don't really have the necessary components to test that theory.
18:11:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Since 2 is actually shorthand for ^[the map that represents 2], and ^ is quote, when you normally mention 2, it just turns into... well, 2!
18:11:16 <elliott> Sgeo: But when you apply it as a function, it gets looked up as a name.
18:11:22 <Gregor> I'll have to take it home and test it with my computer.
18:11:24 <ais523> Gregor: a couple of wires and a multimeter can test it quite easily
18:11:38 <Gregor> ais523: I'm a computer scientist, not an electrical engineer :P
18:11:40 <Sgeo> Well, that's... interesting
18:11:53 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm sorry, do you not like it? I can remove it if you want.
18:12:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Can you tell me what you would like to see in a language?
18:13:21 <elliott> Sgeo: BTW, just like in Enchilada, INFORMATION CANNOT BE DESTROYYYED
18:13:31 <elliott> Sorry, sorry, I accidentally held shift down.
18:13:40 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't know how that works in Enchilada
18:13:47 <Sgeo> I didn't even begin to understand it
18:13:55 <elliott> Sgeo: Is "it" = "Enchilada"?
18:14:15 <Sgeo> Well, "it" is "how Enchilada works" I guess
18:15:59 <ais523> (note: that's the same smiley as (:( )
18:16:17 <j-invariant> trying to troll reddit getting 504s F£WTFW
18:17:38 <ais523> according to Wikipedia, it happens when you contact one of a site's proxies, but the proxy couldn't contact the actual data source
18:18:04 <j-invariant> elliott: http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/f4kc0/you_are_never_asked_to_prove_a_negative_then_why/
18:18:17 <olsner> A pizza with depth a and radius z has a volume of pi z z a.
18:18:29 <j-invariant> reddit best questions of the year right there
18:18:43 <elliott> j-invariant: oh god why would you ever post that
18:19:28 <j-invariant> im interesetd in what people will ahve to say
18:21:26 <Sgeo> I may just be forced to abandon #ioke
18:22:16 <Sgeo> Which seems to believe it's supposed to be opped
18:22:42 <ais523> Sgeo: if there are no ops available to kick it, go into #freenode and ask for help
18:22:47 <elliott> "These logs were automatically created by IokeStormBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot."
18:22:53 <elliott> considering the naming similiarity
18:22:55 <elliott> I suspect it's a legit bot
18:22:59 <elliott> that really is meant to be opped
18:23:03 <ais523> "the Java IRC LogBot"? is there only one?
18:23:16 <ais523> well, a malfunctioning bot is bad for a channel even if legitimate
18:23:29 <Sgeo> It's not like anyone else is even in the channel
18:23:30 <elliott> "hello, #{name}!" println)
18:23:36 <elliott> ALLOW ME TO REWRITE THIS IN AMETHYST
18:24:15 <elliott> Sgeo: MOST BEAUTIFUL THING???
18:24:28 <ais523> sub hello ($name) { say "hello, $name!"; }
18:25:13 <Sgeo> <IokeHurricane> elliott: Yes, but only because Jesus once said, Blessed are the refried, for they shall inherit the southwest United States.
18:25:21 <elliott> Sgeo: What do you think the perfect expression of
18:25:21 <elliott> <elliott> hello = method(name,
18:25:21 <elliott> <elliott> "hello, #{name}!" println)
18:25:25 <elliott> Please type it out for me.
18:25:30 <ais523> elliott: well, yes, I just translated your code into perl 6
18:28:15 <Sgeo> First off, just [hello: whatever] how is it clear that that map globally assigns stuff?
18:29:36 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm not asking for Amethyst.
18:29:44 <elliott> I'm asking for how you would want to write that function.
18:30:14 <elliott> ais523: hmm, gah, I can't think of any sane way to handle nickname changes in a logbot
18:30:17 <Sgeo> Probably similar to Ioke, except making it clearer that the second argument is code
18:30:21 <ais523> elliott: there isn't one
18:30:28 <elliott> ais523: how does clog do it?
18:30:44 -!- pumpkin has joined.
18:30:50 <Sgeo> How does the deceased IokeStormBot do it?
18:30:58 <ais523> it constantly keeps a membership list for each channel, when it gets a NICK message it places a nickname change message in each channel that nick was a member of
18:31:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:31:43 <elliott> I should make Herobrine do NAMES #channel every time the server pings it
18:31:47 <elliott> just to avoid desynchronisation
18:33:53 <elliott> ais523: wow, logging is Hard
18:34:35 <elliott> ais523: hard enough that I'm going to implement botte first
18:36:05 <elliott> I KNOW WHAT I SHOULD WRITE BOTTE IN
18:37:38 <ais523> elliott: write Amethyst in Feather, using scapegoat as your VCS
18:37:40 <elliott> hey ais523, what's the perfect database system,
18:37:52 <ais523> err, depends on what you want to use it for, I suppose
18:38:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:38:30 <elliott> ais523: I basically want something like Datalog :P
18:38:57 <elliott> ais523: it's Prolog, but sub-TC
18:39:02 <elliott> with an efficient algorithm for finding results
18:39:11 <ais523> hmm, so going the other way from Proud
18:40:10 <elliott> $ time (grep butts big | wc -l)
18:40:14 <elliott> (big is the combined clog logs)
18:40:25 <elliott> unfortunately, doing this with, say, Ruby, even without regexps, produces something much slower
18:40:32 <elliott> so I can't really just use a linear array
18:41:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit).
18:46:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> I should make Herobrine do NAMES #channel every time the server pings it <-- err
18:46:14 <Vorpal> elliott, just track PART, JOIN, QUIT, KICK?
18:46:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Except that each day is in a different file.
18:46:43 <elliott> I suppose I could make it do NAMES on each new day.
18:49:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that would work. And after reconnect of course
18:49:58 <Sgeo> What if, in a thousand years, there end up being genuine worshippers of Inglip?
18:50:19 <elliott> I'll do the same for TOPIC, just in case.
18:50:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you could just load history when you need to work out who was there?
18:51:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and for internal state it would presumably keep track of that elsewhere when running
18:52:36 <elliott> Vorpal: The log bot is really dumb, it just responds to pings and logs to a file.
18:52:39 <elliott> The formatter does all the grunt work.
18:54:27 <j-invariant> elliott: why is jmcarthur being .. like that?
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19:14:37 <Sgeo> elliott, what are your thoughts on Nimrod?
19:14:48 <elliott> i have none as it looks boring. the variable naming thing is whack
19:20:30 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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19:35:12 -!- Herobrine has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:40:28 <Tritonio> Would you guys be interested in a 2D war game where you program insects in Brainfuck?
19:40:54 <elliott> Sounds interesting enough.
19:42:00 <Tritonio> the insects are not real insects... They will give birth to other insects though, that's why I used the metaphor. :-P
19:42:06 <oerjan> I for one welcome our new insect overlords
19:43:11 -!- calamari has joined.
19:43:56 <Gregor> It's too bad that the only sexual lifeform in existence is insects :P
19:44:16 <Gregor> (Also, insects don't "give birth")
19:44:26 <Gregor> calamari: Also, they're DIRECTORIES.
19:45:17 -!- elliott has set topic: Esoteric programming languages | Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ | Logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ (formatted).
19:45:29 <Gregor> WHY'D YOU LAME UP THE TOPIC AGAIN
19:45:54 <elliott> Gregor: EXCUSE ME WE HAVE FORMATTED LOGS NOW THIS IS GOOD?
19:46:00 <elliott> Gregor: Also, it was because we could possibly have had a visitor.
19:46:04 <elliott> I was justifying me getting the name Herobrine from its owner.
19:46:15 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, but you got rid of our support group :(
19:46:18 <elliott> Which involved "mumble mumble #esoteric offshoot channel Minecraft".
19:46:26 <calamari> Gregor: hey, I call them directories too, why the misdirected rage? lol
19:46:28 <elliott> Gregor: I DID NOT WANT MR. RANDOM NICKOWNER TO GET A BAD IMPRESSION OF US
19:47:01 <elliott> I will probably convert the clog logs to the format of this sometime.
19:47:03 <Gregor> calamari: Oh, I had forgotten who I was arguing with about that on the Book of Faces, thought it was you X-P
19:47:19 <calamari> but... I call them directories because that's how I learned to call them in Microsoft's MS-DOS, so that probably doesn't help you :)
19:47:37 <elliott> As opposed to Apple's MS-DOS?
19:47:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:48:39 <Sgeo> mkdir "a folder that is not a poorly named directory"
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19:59:00 <calamari> elliott: I was stressing the "Microsoft"ness of it.. which I think is the true reason he doesn't like "folder" lol
19:59:21 <elliott> Gregor WORKED for Microsoft, that's why he loves FOLDERS.
19:59:37 <calamari> he worked for ms... must disown
19:59:49 <Gregor> I worked for Microsoft RESEARCH
19:59:54 <calamari> oh.. I worked for ms.. guess that cancels out :(
20:00:27 <calamari> I took tech support calls for win9x
20:00:45 <elliott> calamari: Ha ha, Gregor was higher up the Microsoft pecking order than you-uu
20:00:53 <elliott> Gregor was a research monkey, you were a telephone monkey.
20:00:57 <elliott> (Ballmer is just a monkey.)
20:01:18 <calamari> it was a goood paying job while I was going thru school, no real regrets
20:01:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:01:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:01:59 <elliott> calamari: Gregor was 4 when he worked at MS Research.
20:02:07 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:02:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so he is like 5 or 6 now?
20:02:14 <elliott> He just looks abnormally old for his age, which is why he looks 80 now; he's actually only 20-something.
20:02:26 <elliott> Isn't that right, Gregor? Or should I say: GRANDPA?
20:02:29 <Vorpal> elliott, he worked for MS Research last year?
20:02:41 <elliott> No, 16+n years ago for n < 10.
20:03:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:03:14 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:03:31 <calamari> argh.. stupid Java.. just frigging flush
20:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. n is a value between 0 and 1 even
20:03:59 <elliott> Yeah, Gregor is just 21. thousand years old
20:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott, any opinions on the AVR family of the CPUs?
20:04:12 <Vorpal> well not CPUs, system on a chip rather
20:04:16 <Gregor> Are we done loonying me yet? :P
20:04:34 <elliott> Gregor: Have you taken your meds lately, gramps?
20:05:54 <Vorpal> elliott, no? What ISAs do you have opinions on then? And I mean apart from "sucks, go back to lisp machine style where it is tailored for high level language"
20:07:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so you don't think ARM is better than x86 for example?
20:09:14 <Gregor> JavaScript is better than ARM.
20:09:26 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:10:19 <Gregor> elliott: I SEE WUT U DID THAR
20:10:24 <elliott> 6501 man, I had it on vinyl
20:10:47 <elliott> "The 6502 is a 6501 with the pins re-arranged following a lawsuit by Motorola over the 6501's pin arrangement."
20:11:10 <elliott> I had it BEFORE they sold out and rearranged the pins.
20:11:19 <Gregor> A lawsuit ... about pin arrangement.
20:12:43 <pikhq> God I can't wait for Wayland to replace X.
20:14:10 <elliott> pikhq: #esoteric-minecraft! BECAUSE THEY OPPRESS US IN HERE
20:15:14 <Gregor> GET YER MINECRAFT TALK OUTTA HERE YA MINECRAPPERS
20:15:26 <Vorpal> <pikhq> God I can't wait for Wayland to replace X. <-- what happened
20:15:34 <Vorpal> that made you say that I meant
20:15:43 <Vorpal> <Gregor> A lawsuit ... about pin arrangement. <-- yes old
20:16:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nothing much, I'm just still annoyed at X's really annoying design.
20:17:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, can you do wayland forwarding btw?
20:17:51 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but you can do gtk/qt forwarding.
20:17:56 <Vorpal> (note: I actually used X forwarding for seriouss applications like twice)
20:18:01 <elliott> (Well, you will be able to roughly at the time their Wayland support will become stable.)
20:18:11 <calamari> I guess I can wait.. as I'm currently connected to my laptop with ssh -X and x2x
20:18:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Wayland's position is that it belongs at the toolkit level to improve throughput and performance.
20:18:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nobody has *written* it, but it's entirely possible to write a Wayland remote access system.
20:18:29 <Vorpal> elliott, good thinking
20:18:41 <elliott> But I don't think you could do it per-window "generically".
20:18:45 <pikhq> elliott: VNC or RDP style if you want it generic.
20:18:49 <Gregor> If you can have a VNC-headed Wayland server, and also can share your current Wayland session via VNC, then it has everything I need :P
20:19:14 <pikhq> elliott: Basically write a Wayland compositor that shoves it out via your protocol of choice.
20:19:42 <Gregor> pikhq: That still puts it decades ahead of Windows and Mac :P
20:19:46 <pikhq> Not quite as nice as X for stuff using the actual X drawing primitives, but almost surely beats X otherwise.
20:20:00 <elliott> Gregor: Windows has VNC, dude :P
20:20:12 <elliott> It seems like I might have to start maintaining gnome-panel soon...
20:20:27 <pikhq> (Remote X for GTK/Qt is *such a pain*, as they just treat the X display as a framebuffer...)
20:20:54 <Gregor> elliott: With Remote Desktop (and the money to fork out for it), you can have a limited number of otherwise-headless sessions. On Mac OS X, to my knowledge, you simply can't. On anything X-based, arbitrary users can start VNC-headed X sessions just for giggles. It's not even comparable.
20:21:06 <Gregor> s/Remote Desktop/Terminal Services or whatever/
20:21:16 -!- calamari has left (?).
20:21:19 <elliott> Gregor: Dood, there are third-party server/clients :P
20:21:25 -!- calamari has joined.
20:21:26 <elliott> Sorry calamari, but I can't answer questions if you're not here.
20:21:46 <Gregor> elliott: There are third-party servers/clients that share your CURRENT desktop, not establish new ones. (Unless I'm wrong, I've been out of Windows for a long time)
20:21:49 <pikhq> elliott: The idea is to create arbitrary *additional* sessions, which you straight up can't do on Windows without Remote Desktop.
20:21:52 <elliott> calamari: No, I don't, but gnome-panel is being deprecated in favour of the awful GNOME Shell monstrosity. I think they're replacing Nautilus too, although I'm not sure about that.
20:22:04 <elliott> calamari: And, well, I want to keep using gnome-panel.
20:22:11 <elliott> And I don't trust it not to bitrot :P
20:22:15 <pikhq> And you can still do to your heart's content on Unix.
20:22:32 <pikhq> Even with Wayland.
20:23:09 <pikhq> Even makes it easier to create a VNC server. No need to deal with a 50-ton code base!
20:23:17 <calamari> elliott: can you add a Run option on the gome menu while you're at it?
20:24:07 <elliott> calamari: You can also add "Run Application..." to the panel as an applet :P
20:24:39 <calamari> yeah, I used to have that but my panel space is precious
20:24:47 <calamari> I'll have to try to remember alt-f2
20:25:09 <elliott> calamari: Apparently gnome-panel-control --run-dialog works if you have that installed, so you could just add that to the menu.
20:25:21 <elliott> The program 'gnome-panel-control' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
20:25:21 <elliott> sudo apt-get install openbox
20:25:24 <elliott> It might be some openbox tool.
20:25:29 <elliott> You can probably do it with DBus...
20:25:51 <calamari> sorry.. I was mostly just joking, I know that didn't come across well
20:26:05 <elliott> calamari: I'm actually just curious myself :P
20:26:10 <elliott> I always assumed it was a separate program.
20:26:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> The program 'gnome-panel-control' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
20:26:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> sudo apt-get install openbox
20:26:27 <calamari> it was one of the things that got me to ditch Gnome years ago.. well that and the menu didn't have a decent editor.. well and a lot of other stuff that was hosed
20:26:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I'm lost for speech
20:26:37 <Vorpal> elliott, "gnome" "openbox"
20:26:40 <elliott> Openbox works with GNOME panels and the like.
20:26:45 <elliott> calamari: The menu has a decent editor now :P
20:27:03 <calamari> yeah, I decided to give gnome another chance on my laptop and it seems fine again
20:27:10 <Sgeo> comex seems interested in Nimrod
20:27:20 <elliott> He's used it, says pumpkin.
20:27:43 <elliott> calamari: This program pops up the run dialog: http://www.codefu.org/people/darkness/gnome-run.c ...how ridiculously overcomplicated
20:27:44 <calamari> I love how kde 3 gives me a ton of options :)
20:27:53 <elliott> pumpkin: Just responding to Sgeo...
20:27:55 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Notch.
20:28:55 -!- Notch has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
20:28:58 <elliott> Notch: You're banned from #esoteric-minecraft :P
20:29:24 <Sgeo> You know there's a #minecraft channel on Freenode...
20:29:37 <calamari> you guys are java masters, right? why is the data sent from my java client socket not getting to the server until after I disconnect? some buffer that I need to flush?
20:29:40 <elliott> He means to go in there as Notch.
20:29:42 <elliott> calamari: No, we all hate Java.
20:29:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Notch.
20:29:49 <elliott> calamari: But yeah, try flushing :P
20:30:05 <calamari> yeah I flushed, don't like to leave things floating around
20:30:55 <calamari> I guess it's not strictly Java.. it's Dalvik
20:31:10 <calamari> could be they didn't implement flush
20:31:47 <elliott> Sgeo: they think it's really him.
20:32:33 <Gregor> The UK mail tracker says my package is in the US, the US mail tracker says my package is in the UK.
20:34:57 <Sgeo> I think they stopped believing rather quickly
20:36:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, guess: it just left UK but hasn't arrived in US yet thus not registered there yet
20:36:34 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's been in this state since Thursday :P
20:36:35 <Notch> Gregor, neither country wants to own up to having it.
20:36:49 <Gregor> Or they sent it by ship.
20:36:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is it? (if I may ask)
20:36:53 <elliott> Notch: That's what I was going to say.
20:37:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, isn't that what they usually do? Send it by ship
20:37:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: EVIL. In a box. With a little bit of hope in it.
20:37:13 <Gregor> Vorpal: ... yes. In the 1800s.
20:37:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, so they fly the packets now? Don't you need to pay extra for that?
20:37:57 <elliott> They fly the TCP packets and what decade is Vorpal living in.
20:38:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's either ground or air, there is no ship shipping.
20:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember stickers saying "air mail" you had to put on the envelopes
20:38:27 <Notch> Sgeo, FWIW, I really hope they don't think I'm really Notch.
20:38:41 <Sgeo> This is douchebaggy
20:38:49 <Notch> I mean, my hostname is "unaffiliated/Phantom_Hoover/x-<numbers>"
20:38:57 <Notch> Sgeo, if they believe me, they are idiots.
20:39:00 <Notch> And hence fair game.
20:39:10 <Notch> <Yetanotherx> Notch: I don't have a problem per se... I'm just so starstruck right now so I'm saying hi. :D
20:39:30 <elliott> Oh dear god this is the best.
20:39:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, you need to cross water to get to US. So that explains the speed. I never heard of a fast sea bed driving vehicle!
20:39:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Seriously, they're believing without even checking if he's authenticated with services.
20:39:42 <elliott> Without even looking at his hostname.
20:39:45 <Sgeo> Some of them are believing it
20:40:09 -!- calamari has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
20:40:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to calamari.
20:40:31 <Gregor> Notch: But ur my HEROO
20:40:47 <elliott> <elliott> Banning Notch? What evil!
20:40:51 -!- Notch has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
20:41:10 <elliott> <Yetanotherx> (best update ever, btw.)
20:41:17 <elliott> (That was before you got banned.)
20:41:32 <elliott> <TkTech> FYI, he changed his nick and didn't even bother changing his connected username.
20:41:32 <elliott> <FoolsRun> TkTech: huh. Werid that it was crashing then.
20:41:32 <elliott> <TkTech> Hello Phantom_Hoover, aka fake notch.
20:41:48 <calamari> In the early 90's, we would have some adolescent fun with that.. could have chains of 5 or 6 people with the wrong nicks, trying to talk like the real person would
20:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> And say that I didn't actually expect anyone not to notice my hostname.
20:42:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I said "<Phantom_Hoover> say hello back from me."
20:42:50 <elliott> The reddit server thinks I'm a 4channer who took down the server for two minutes, #minecraft thinks Phantom_Hoover is an evil Notch impersonator, we're even :P
20:43:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could just /msg TkTech with it or something, unlikely you'll get unbanned though.
20:43:44 -!- TkTech has joined.
20:43:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the real jeb?
20:44:04 <TkTech> Phantom_Hoover: Really, why would you troll the channel regardless?
20:44:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I presume you have your channel list world visible
20:44:55 -!- elliott has set topic: http://esolangs.org/wiki/.
20:45:00 <TkTech> <-- Been here 4 years, friends with most sysops.
20:45:01 <Vorpal> you need to set some mode to prevent that
20:45:15 <TkTech> Vorpal: He does not have them visible, neither does elliott
20:45:16 <Sgeo> elliott, logged channels are supposed to have logs in the topic
20:45:19 <elliott> I always knew freenode sysops weren't very professional
20:45:31 <elliott> Sgeo: The logs are down right now.
20:45:34 <TkTech> Says the people who just trolled a channel.
20:45:44 <Vorpal> TkTech, anyway I doubt anyone would believe he was notch. The "~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486" kind of makes it obvious he isn't
20:46:06 <TkTech> Vorpal: Regardless, most users in #minecraft would not know how to check nor noticei t.
20:46:17 <elliott> Shouldn't it be ##minecraft anyway?
20:46:38 <Vorpal> TkTech, well that is their issue. If people don't read the manual then they have only themselves to blame
20:46:56 <TkTech> Vorpal: No, they have occasional dickwads to blame and their own sense of trust :)
20:47:17 <TkTech> Phantom_Hoover: dickroll?
20:47:43 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:47:44 <Vorpal> TkTech, uh. wrong. Also "their own sense of trust" just amounts to the same as what I said. They only have themselves to blame.
20:47:50 * Gregor sips tea while watching this bizarre drama unfold.
20:47:50 <Sgeo> I have to admit.. after PH /nicked to Notch, I vaguely mentioned #minecraft's existence
20:47:56 <Sgeo> So I feel a bit guilty
20:47:58 <TkTech> elliott: by those same channel naming guidlines, this should be ##esoteric as it's a topic :)
20:48:05 <elliott> Sgeo has the biggest guilty conscience I have ever seen.
20:48:11 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, it's weird.
20:48:15 <elliott> TkTech: Minecraft is ownable, esoteric programming languages are not :P
20:48:21 <elliott> Sgeo: You realise everyone knows #minecraft exists...
20:48:26 <Vorpal> TkTech, this is actually old enough to predate those rules
20:48:32 <elliott> TkTech: Besides, we're 2002 vintage, it's Freenode's problem, not ours
20:48:55 <elliott> Our teeth are made out of pure whiskey and we ban people for breakfast!
20:49:03 <TkTech> Vorpal: If a company or OS group with a strong presence asks for it and can prove they use the name, your channel can be moved :)
20:49:09 <Vorpal> elliott, frozen? I doubt such teeth would work
20:49:20 <Vorpal> TkTech, nice trolling there :P
20:49:23 <elliott> TkTech: Good thing no company is called Esoteric Enterprises then
20:49:44 * Gregor founds The Esoteric Academy of Esoterica and petitions Freenode.
20:49:49 <TkTech> elliott: http://www.bizfind.us/5/1503046/esoteric-enterprises/san-francisco.aspx
20:50:08 <Gregor> I'm betting ... sex toy shop.
20:50:09 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC ENTERPRISES, SAN FRANCISCO, CORPORATE CHANNEL.
20:50:18 <Gregor> Oh, it lists the category :P
20:50:20 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC ENTERPRISES, SAN FRANCISCO, CORPORATE CHANNEL | SERIOUSNESS EXCLUSIVELY.
20:50:40 <Gregor> TkTech: Sex toys are the best kind of clothing.
20:50:56 <Sgeo> *children's clothing
20:50:57 <elliott> Women's child's clothing, so if you're not the child of a woman, you can go fuck yourself.
20:50:59 <TkTech> Wonder if they just looked up random dictionary words to form a name.
20:51:58 <TkTech> Phantom_Hoover: Certainly
20:52:19 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC ENTERPRISES, SAN FRANCISCO, CORPORATE CHANNEL | SERIOUSNESS EXCLUSIVELY | We do not make sex toys, and discourage you from going behind the black curtain labeled "There are no adult products in this store" | Logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D or http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ (formatted).
20:53:24 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC CORPORATION PTY LIMITED | http://www.esotericcorp.com.au/.
20:53:49 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC CORPORATION PTY LIMITED | http://www.esotericcorp.com.au/ | Service to businesses looking for personal attention and a high degree of accounting expertise. Smiling people around a circular table..
20:53:49 <calamari> what's so good about minecraft anyways? just a fad?
20:54:02 <TkTech> Lego, just crashes more
20:54:04 <elliott> calamari: It's like Lego, except you can blow stuff up.
20:54:10 <Sgeo> comex, what's your opinion of Nimrod?
20:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone have any idea about zzo's Dirac notation-in-accounting.
20:54:16 <elliott> The crashing is usually correlated with blowing stuff up.
20:54:22 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Accountants. <-- yes it makes no sense. at all
20:54:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody has any idea about zzo38 anything.
20:54:30 <calamari> haven't played any lego games on my computer
20:54:33 <Vorpal> elliott, not that either!
20:54:41 <Vorpal> elliott, but I meant accounting + "esoteric" in the name
20:54:43 <elliott> calamari: That's another disadvantage to Minecraft, it requiers a computer.
20:54:46 <calamari> my kids have ton of actual legos tho heh
20:54:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah indeed
20:54:56 <elliott> calamari: We were talking about actual lego :P
20:55:59 <Vorpal> speaking of which. If anyone need to figure out how to get a cross compiler toolchain to the Lego RCX unit I can help
20:56:00 <elliott> If only Notch was here to frown upon people.
20:56:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I think nobody will EVER need that :P
20:56:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well I actually wrote that guide for myself to reference mostly. Since I needed to do it again on another computer
20:56:48 <TkTech> elliott: ;\ I have gcc set to cross-compiler C to my old 2002 RCX
20:56:55 <elliott> OK, well anyone who matters. >__>
20:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone who doesn't appreciate the HILARITY of posing as Notch.
20:57:55 <Vorpal> TkTech, don't remember when mine is from
20:57:58 <Gregor> I didn't realize they ever made a GCC->RCX X-compiler.
20:57:58 <TkTech> Vorpal: I think, haven't touched it in a long while
20:58:02 <Gregor> I just remember seeing about Java for it.
20:58:07 <Vorpal> TkTech, anyway using bibo, not brickOS these days
20:58:08 <TkTech> Vorpal: one of the first-gen yellow bricks
20:58:15 <Sgeo> Hey, this time me causing someone to come to this channel was only very, very indirect!
20:58:16 <elliott> MY LEGOS ARE MADE OUT OF PLASTIC DAMMIT
20:58:19 <elliott> THEY STICK TOGETHER AND VERY LITTLE ELSE
20:58:41 * calamari swaps elliotts legos for best locks
20:58:51 <Vorpal> TkTech, well I have two. One from RIS 1.5 and one from RIS 2.0. The one from RIS 1.5 is dead. No clue how, it worked when I put it away for some years. Was dead when I took it out of the box last year.
20:58:53 <TkTech> Sgeo: I was here years ago, I think I first posted a whitespace interpreter what, 4 years ago
20:58:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THEY BREAK IF YOU SNAP THEM
20:58:59 <calamari> ha ha, now they don't even stick together
20:59:15 <elliott> TkTech: DON'T THINK YOUR STATEMENTS WILL GO UNVERIFIED
20:59:17 <elliott> I AM RUNNING GREP AS WE SPEAK
20:59:35 <TkTech> elliott: I'd <3 logs if you have them
20:59:44 <elliott> Nobody has any logs, sorry, especially not Gregor in an hg repository.
20:59:47 <Vorpal> > select * from irc.logs where nick = 'TkTech';
20:59:47 <Vorpal> serial | tstamp | nick | target | uhost | type | body
20:59:48 <Vorpal> --------+--------+------+--------+-------+------+------
20:59:49 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `where'
21:00:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: ... you have IRC logs in a DB?
21:00:18 <elliott> Gregor: fizzie set it up first to do ANALYSIS.
21:00:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, this is old news. fizzie made the script to begin with
21:00:23 <elliott> Then Vorpal copied like always.
21:00:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yes like you copied mcmap
21:00:44 <Vorpal> I ported it to postgre
21:00:49 <Vorpal> way faster than sqlite
21:01:22 <Vorpal> TkTech, nothing case insensitive either
21:01:30 <Vorpal> TkTech, got any other nick suggestion?
21:01:38 <elliott> Does his claim really need verification :P
21:01:45 <elliott> It's not the most outrageous one I've heard
21:01:49 <TkTech> Vorpal: linuxhq? Searching google for references to this nick pre-2007
21:01:54 <Sgeo> Scott Adams can verify his clam, if needed
21:01:55 <TkTech> Vorpal: not having much luck
21:02:09 <Vorpal> no nick like linuxhq either
21:02:10 <elliott> pikhq: So how are Pik/Linux relations?
21:02:18 <TkTech> Apparently I was interested in Lua in 2007
21:02:19 <elliott> Are you at peace with the linuxhq?
21:02:49 <Vorpal> well I conclude that your claim about having been here before is false if your claim about using the same nick is also true
21:03:28 <j-invariant> this things prints sqrt(2)^2 + 2 sqrt(2) + x^2 for (x+sqrt(2)x)^2
21:03:47 <oerjan> <elliott> calamari: It's like Lego, except you can blow stuff up. <-- technically you _could_ blow up LEGO® bricks, just saying
21:03:56 <elliott> oerjan: But not with other lego bricks that look like TNT.
21:04:09 <elliott> That look like dynamite with "TNT" written on them :P
21:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that MC combines three different explosives into one.
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21:07:49 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:12:23 * oerjan thinks the nick linuxhq vaguely rings a bell
21:13:19 <TkTech> I've been googling for a bit, I can find mentions back to 2007 but it doesn't appear as if I specifically visited this #esoteric ;-(
21:13:33 <Gregor> There are other #esoterics? :P
21:13:55 <elliott> There's the original EFNet #esoterica that got used for all of a day before lament told andreou to come to freenode :P
21:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> No appearance of the string "linuxhq" in the codu logs.
21:14:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: :slowpoke:
21:14:18 <elliott> We should write a creation story based on our history, that would be... uh... stupid.
21:14:31 <TkTech> #osdev's would be more enteraining
21:14:43 <TkTech> Including the 12 year troll.
21:14:53 <TkTech> Really, gr00ber's been trolling it before freenode.
21:15:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:15:19 <TkTech> Phantom_Hoover: A slightly disturbed fellow whose stalked the channel and the ops for over a decade, before the move to freenode
21:15:23 <calamari> elliott: but I don't want to write about graue :(
21:15:34 <TkTech> Phantom_Hoover: Routinely gets k-lined by tomaj
21:15:42 <elliott> Graue has nothing to do with this IRC channel, that comes way after that.
21:15:50 <elliott> I've always stayed away from osdev as I suspect them to be slightly insane.
21:15:53 <oerjan> It is pitch dark. You might be eaten by a graue.
21:16:02 <Gregor> elliott: By that logic, you have nothing to do with this IRC channel :P
21:16:09 <elliott> Gregor: Its founding, no :P
21:16:16 <elliott> calamari: Does *anyone* get along with Graue? :-)
21:16:56 <Gregor> I don't get along with him because he creates another layer of Gregor/Gracenotes ambiguity :P
21:17:10 -!- elliott has changed nick to Gregori.
21:17:15 -!- Gregori has changed nick to elliott.
21:17:31 <calamari> I remember when a guy left to go fight in the war and gave me the keys to esolangs.org.. that must have really shined him on lol
21:18:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> calamari: Does *anyone* get along with Graue? :-) ← well, I had a cordial email conversation with him a while ago.
21:19:45 <calamari> too many vowels in a row, it's immediately irritating.. kinda like people that use their first name as their nick .. oh wait
21:20:12 <elliott> That change to [[Tepir]] was me, nobody revert it :P
21:20:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:21:33 * oerjan swats calamari -----###
21:21:45 <oerjan> YOU JUST BE GLAD I DIDN'T BAN YOU
21:21:47 <Gregor> Calamari Jones is a self-hating squid.
21:22:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it was eating up all of his time
21:23:26 <Sgeo> http://progopedia.com/
21:23:32 <Sgeo> This cannot be good
21:24:09 <Sgeo> Meh, it's too new to be that interesting
21:26:26 -!- revenantphx has joined.
21:26:45 -!- revenantphx has left (?).
21:27:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE ON THE WIKI ABOUT TRYING TO GET THE CHANNEL ON TOPIC
21:27:53 <calamari> it has my lame Hanoi Love language but not Linguine.. bummer
21:27:58 <elliott> oerjan: my edit was not a revert
21:28:45 <oerjan> (i actually just said that to Phantom_Hoover to make sure elliott checked the wiki)
21:28:53 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:30:08 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:30:08 <oerjan> SOMEONE SEEMS TO HAVE AN ANGER PROBLEM
21:33:21 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
21:34:14 <oerjan> MUST BE THOSE TEEN HORMONES
21:34:58 <olsner> yay, context switching works
21:35:08 * olsner punches Phantom_Hoover
21:35:12 <elliott> olsner: now give it a transparent GUI and a tcp stack
21:35:45 <olsner> it's missing a *few* things before that can be worked on though
21:36:47 <elliott> olsner: so you implemented context switching in userspace right? :D
21:36:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh. Good thing I had my hard hat on
21:37:15 <Vorpal> just slightly disoriented there for a few seconds
21:38:01 <elliott> Sgeo: what is your preferred data structure for everything to be, an ordered map where both keys and values are optional or an unordered map
21:38:06 * oerjan poisons Gregor's tea while everyone else is watching the brawl
21:38:21 <Gregor> Good thing I don't actually drink tea.
21:38:24 <olsner> elliott: well, what I have actually done is a yield syscall that switches to the next runnable process
21:38:46 <olsner> and I have a flag for whether a suspended process can just be sysret:ed to or if all the registers need to be restored
21:38:48 <calamari> really? I thought all liberals drank tea
21:38:54 <elliott> olsner: Now make a user-space process that forcibly inserts such syscalls into its children :D
21:39:15 * Sgeo installs Nimrod
21:39:24 <oerjan> * Gregor sips tea while watching this bizarre drama unfold. <-- SOMEONE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH
21:39:34 <olsner> elliott: hehe, right... and then solve the halting problem to figure out where those syscalls are required
21:39:50 <elliott> olsner: no, just insert them every N instructions
21:39:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Same way I don't drink coffee, beer, wine or ... whatever else you like.
21:39:59 <elliott> olsner: and make sure you insert one before every jump
21:40:11 <elliott> Gregor drinks liquid babies.
21:40:22 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Other than tea.
21:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> You'll hang from the highest yard-arm in Leith docks for that slight!
21:40:27 <oerjan> Gregor: DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT'S TO GET HOLD OF CHROMIUM CYANIDE?!=\
21:40:44 <Gregor> oerjan: Bravo on the reference :P
21:41:06 <Gregor> However, the irritation from the chromium seems rather pointless what with the cyanide.
21:42:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... I didn't?
21:42:15 <olsner> elliott: make every branch cost a syscall == awesome
21:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Same way I don't drink coffee, beer, wine or ... whatever else you like.
21:42:42 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, whatever other than tea that you like ...
21:42:44 <elliott> Cyanide & Chromium Happiness
21:43:23 <Gregor> Also, I'm as American as <highly-American thing>
21:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, my point was that English pansies drink tea, not that I like tea!
21:43:28 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't know. having potentential ordering seems like it would add more, potentially uneeded, complexity
21:43:32 <elliott> Gregor: Smallpox blankets?
21:43:38 <quintopia> could there be a language which contains no other instructions than LOAD, STORE, and TRAP that uses no memory-mapped I/O or arithmetic, as it depends on the OS to do all that for it? if yes, which OS could do it?
21:43:42 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: In that case, I'm as American as <highly-American thing>
21:43:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Sure, but it lets you express some things easier.
21:44:02 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: My Jewish genes beat it out.
21:44:05 <elliott> What Phantom_Hoover is saying, Gregor, is that you're gay.
21:44:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidence: Jon Ronson is Jewish, and he's an English pansy.
21:44:30 <Gregor> elliott: Pfff, you English pansies are far more pansy than our American gays.
21:44:48 <Vorpal> elliott, your suggestion for syscall based thing works except you don't need a syscall. I believe erlang does what you suggested per scheduler (and it runs one scheduler per CPU)
21:45:06 <elliott> Vorpal: In @, the compiler inserts the instructions :P
21:45:11 <Vorpal> elliott, but since you know what you execute then you can just do a cheap decrement of a counter and a check
21:45:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yes so same thing applies to you
21:45:16 <Gregor> That being said, I'd much rather have the word "pooftah" in my lexicon than "faggot", but I guess that's because, as mentioned, I'm American :P
21:45:27 <elliott> Gregor: Shut up, pofftah faggot.
21:45:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't need a full syscall
21:45:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is a different system
21:45:42 <Gregor> elliott: Wow. Gay on both sides o' the pond :P
21:45:50 <elliott> Sgeo: The thing is, I can't have optional keys with an unordered thing.
21:45:55 <olsner> elliott: my OS will be disappointingly traditional for you
21:45:56 <elliott> Sgeo: So arrays have to be 0 -> first elem; 1 -> second elem
21:45:59 <elliott> -> first elem; -> second elem
21:46:12 <olsner> once it gets running programs, it's going to have a SHELL
21:46:18 <Sgeo> Ok, I guess, I don't see anything terrible about ordered keys
21:46:26 <Vorpal> olsner, so does it boot in an emulator yet?
21:46:30 <Sgeo> Wait, why can't ypu?
21:46:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Because how would you look up a key...
21:46:59 <Sgeo> elliott, implied keys, MISC style
21:47:01 <elliott> It needs to be ordered to represent [a; b; c] as (=> a, => b, => c)
21:47:05 <elliott> Sgeo: i.e., keys aren't optional.
21:47:24 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: In that case, I'm as American as <highly-American thing> <-- G. W. Bush?
21:47:43 <olsner> Vorpal: yeah, it's been booting since several years back - the difficult part is doing something useful after booting
21:47:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it was a cheap attack :P
21:47:50 <Sgeo> But syntactically they are optional. Note that I'm insisting on nothing, just confused
21:48:00 <Gregor> I'm as Canadian as apple pie is American!
21:48:09 <Vorpal> elliott, at least I didn't say "highschool massacres"
21:48:11 <olsner> or, at least I think it was already booting when I picked it up after elliott got me interested in os-writing again
21:48:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I *could* have done that
21:48:22 <elliott> Gregor: *as Canadian as murder
21:48:24 <Vorpal> elliott, no they are American
21:48:39 <Vorpal> elliott, [citation needed]
21:48:54 <Gregor> I should write a script for my IRC client that terminates every line with "[citation needed]"
21:48:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion
21:48:56 <olsner> but since I've rewritten it now, all the timestamps are new and I don't remember how old the code was
21:49:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what the heck is that?
21:49:26 <elliott> Isn't that RIGHT Gregor?!?!24783
21:49:43 <Gregor> elliott: Only the uninteresting parts.
21:49:50 <Gregor> elliott: Kinda doesn't matter since you don't know the REAL secrets.
21:49:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard of it. Has it been peer-reviewed by the mainstream science?
21:49:58 <elliott> Like killing all the RACISTS?!>!$@O%65UY WITH eAR JUICE???
21:50:06 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, I've concluded that Jew's ear Juice must actually be juice from the ear of a Jew.
21:50:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Shut up, you filthy kike.
21:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Since if it was juice that Jews put into their ears it would be apostrophised "Jews' ear Juice".
21:50:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea what "kike" means so thus I'm not offended by it
21:50:45 <elliott> Vorpal: It means you're a JEW.
21:50:45 <Vorpal> but I guess it would be otherwise
21:50:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: And clearly that Chinese Engrish can would get its apostrophes right.
21:51:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well no I don't believe in that religion
21:51:23 <elliott> That's because he's a fag.
21:51:32 <elliott> Gregor: GO PRAISE ALLAH, TERRORIST
21:52:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:52:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's juice made from the ears of their enemies, silly
21:52:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:52:17 <calamari> Gregor is a Scientologist, you should know that
21:52:37 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Also, http://9gag.com/gag/29876/ it's "The Jew's ear juice"
21:52:54 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: So, still ambiguous. It's just owned by the Jew.
21:53:12 <olsner> hah! found a backup! Vorpal: the code has been booting since at least 8 and a half years
21:53:21 <elliott> olsner: I didn't even EXIST that long ago.
21:53:23 <olsner> but protected mode and anything remotely useful only started working in november
21:53:37 <elliott> olsner: No I didn't! I'm 3!
21:55:16 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't suppose you can recognize any of these symbols? http://9gag.com/gag/29876/
21:57:20 <Vorpal> <olsner> hah! found a backup! Vorpal: the code has been booting since at least 8 and a half years <-- eh? what about the backup?
21:57:32 <calamari> now go look them up in the unicode table :P
21:57:44 <olsner> Vorpal: to find the pre-2010 timestamps of the code
21:57:51 <Gregor> calamari: Good job, Human OCR.
21:57:54 <Vorpal> olsner, no version control?
21:58:07 <calamari> actually I cheated and used this page http://newatlasbev.com/450/juice/jews-ear-juice/
21:58:16 <Vorpal> olsner, also will it work on a SATA based no-legacy system?
21:58:28 <Gregor> Chinese to English translation
21:58:29 <olsner> there was (*was*) a CVS repository for it... on a different computer... running windows
21:58:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but it is better than no version control at all
21:58:34 <Gregor> ... well, that's even worse :P
21:59:28 <elliott> no, version control is unacceptable
22:00:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auricularia_auricula-judae
22:01:00 <olsner> (as in, the CVS repository was running on a different computer running windows that I no longer have)
22:05:01 -!- TkTech has changed nick to TkTech|Busy.
22:05:57 <Vorpal> just use /away, less spammy
22:08:31 <elliott> we're just looking for an excuse to ban you forever
22:08:35 <Vorpal> TkTech|Busy, well still they are spammy in the nick
22:08:42 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott|flossing.
22:08:53 -!- TkTech|Busy has left (?).
22:09:07 -!- elliott|flossing has changed nick to elliott.
22:09:10 <elliott> Sgeo: oh come on, we don't like him
22:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well that solved the issue :)
22:09:49 <Vorpal> Vorpal saved the day yet again!
22:12:07 <oerjan> wait, that means we are doomed, right?
22:17:02 <Vorpal> elliott, big news: I did not spawn on a beach.
22:17:13 <Vorpal> elliott, however I did spawn at the edge of a desert biome!
22:17:22 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT WERE YOU STANDING ON SAND
22:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, just on the edge of the desert biome. No water near
22:18:01 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, there is water very far away on far
22:18:51 <Vorpal> elliott, but well I can upload the screenshots. My old ~/bin/ompload seems broken. Any idea for some automated command line upload?
22:19:02 <elliott> Vorpal: uuencode to sprunge
22:19:02 <Vorpal> for the series of screenshot
22:19:08 <Vorpal> elliott, too much work
22:19:13 <Vorpal> elliott, now seriously
22:19:25 <Vorpal> elliott, no upload then of screenshots
22:19:43 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I won't start browser however
22:19:48 <Vorpal> elliott, can't when minecraft runs
22:20:09 <Vorpal> elliott, dude just give me url to an automated program for it. That's all
22:20:23 <Vorpal> w3m is too tedious to use
22:20:29 <Vorpal> elliott, to upload image to some image hosting site!
22:20:39 <elliott> Just use w3m, it takes two seconds...
22:20:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well I won't. No upload for you then
22:20:56 <Vorpal> I have the screenshots saved
22:21:01 <Vorpal> in case you change your mind
22:21:30 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, so basically "I want to make things hard for you so I'm going to waste more effort than I would end up spending if I just did what he said complaining that it's too much effort".
22:21:57 <Vorpal> elliott, actually such a tool will be useful further on
22:33:33 <Ilari> Paper about finetuning of the Plank constant. That of course assumes dark energy really exists and is not just an atefact of GR being incorrect...
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22:42:58 <elliott> tswett: I SEE YOU WITH MY EYES
22:43:08 <Sgeo> I may have accidentally driven the Nimrod dev insane
22:43:37 <Sgeo> Introduced him to the AW SDK
22:44:02 <elliott> Sgeo: How has that driven him insane.
22:44:15 <Sgeo> elliott, have you ever seen AW SDK code?
22:45:10 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=SDK_Sample_Program_1
22:46:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Doesn't seem that unreasonable...
22:47:46 <tswett> elliott: I am seen by you with your eyes. Your eyes are seen with by you of me.
22:48:28 <elliott> tswett: More like "you know someone I know and I did not know they knew you and this fact has been communicated to my brain via imagery".
22:48:42 <elliott> But yes, I see your physical manifestation with my eyes due to witchcraft.
22:48:45 <elliott> Don't let facts get in the way of it.
22:48:47 <tswett> elliott: oh, I see. So who's our mutual knowee?
22:56:55 <Sgeo> My step-mom's giving my dad grief about the cell phone plan, so my dad wants to give me a regular phone and a small wifi portable hotspot thing
22:57:30 <elliott> Sgeo: "The cell phone plan"?
22:57:45 <Sgeo> Having a data plan, I guess
23:00:33 <tswett> Whew. My Less Wrong karma has finally risen above 799.
23:00:46 <tswett> elliott: also, I don't actually look like that.
23:01:08 <elliott> tswett: You are quite clearly a Warrigal mouse.
23:01:14 <elliott> Actually that might have been a rat.
23:01:55 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:02:37 <quintopia> tswett why were you shooting for 800?
23:03:18 <tswett> Because I was at 799, an annoying number.
23:03:21 <tswett> And 800 is a power of two.
23:03:39 <elliott> It's the 9.64th power of two.
23:03:53 <tswett> Specifically, it's 6668014432879854274079851790721257797144758322315908160396257811764037237817632071521432200871554290742929910593433240445888801654119365080363356052330830046095157579514014558463078285911814024728965016135886601981690748037476461291163877376.
23:03:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:04:05 <elliott> tswett: Indeed, 800 = 6668014432879854274079851790721257797144758322315908160396257811764037237817632071521432200871554290742929910593433240445888801654119365080363356052330830046095157579514014558463078285911814024728965016135886601981690748037476461291163877376
23:04:15 <lambdabot> 666801443287985427407985179072125779714475832231590816039625781176403723781...
23:04:46 -!- sftp has joined.
23:04:55 <quintopia> that's the 800th power of two, whereas 800 is the ...
23:05:18 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `ln'Not in scope: `ln'
23:06:10 <quintopia> the 9.643856189774725...th power of 2
23:06:55 <oerjan> > logBase 2 800 :: CReal
23:06:56 <lambdabot> 9.6438561897747246957406388589787803517297
23:07:32 <Sgeo> elliott, do you know any dataflow languages that I would like?
23:07:42 <Sgeo> ANIC-like, but actually existing, perhaps
23:08:33 <elliott> "Try to imagine, if you will, the amount of time and effort it would take you to write a bug-free, efficiently multithreaded real-time clock + infix calculator hybrid application in a language like C."
23:09:18 <elliott> "To those more technically inclined, anic compiles source-specified pipeline definitions down to object code modules, which are linked with a runtime providing initialization code and a root arbitrator thread; the arbitrator spawns worker threads which are dynamically dispatched to the compiled pipelines in such a way that there are no memory conflicts." <-- this is also almost entirely devoid of detail
23:09:23 <elliott> The author seems a bit...fanatical.
23:09:54 <Sgeo> There's something about it having two standard libraries
23:11:01 <elliott> Not only is it the worst language, but even its most ardent fans agree that the toolchain situation is beyond fucked.
23:11:07 <elliott> (For the toolchain stuff.)
23:11:19 <elliott> The reason it's a bad language is because it's basically C++ done slightly better with heaps and heaps of shit piled on top :P
23:11:23 <elliott> And also there's a D1/D2 divide.
23:11:35 <elliott> So there's two languages, two standard libraries, and seven compilers of which none work.
23:11:38 <Gregor> There are at least six Ds.
23:11:45 <Gregor> None of them are compatible with any other.
23:11:58 <Gregor> The community is so fractured as to be useless to help rectify this situation.
23:12:09 <Sgeo> Aren't the two stdlibs supposed to be compatible in D2?
23:12:11 <Gregor> Maybe in some years, five or more Ds will die, leaving a good D. Until then, stay away.
23:12:14 <Sgeo> (reading wikipedia)
23:12:35 <elliott> Yeah, and faeries are friends with the demonic legions of hell.
23:12:44 <Gregor> Oh, and as of the last time I looked, D2 had easily the worst const system in any language.
23:12:48 <elliott> It is almost impossible to get a "modern" D toolchain running on any OS.
23:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Yeah, and faeries are friends with the demonic legions of hell. ← well traditionally...
23:13:03 <elliott> And that toolchain will be on one of the six Ds :P
23:13:26 <elliott> Hey guys, I use gdc from sourceforge with gcc 3.0 and Phobos
23:13:29 <Sgeo> How are there 6 Ds?
23:13:43 <Sgeo> 2 versions * 2 stdlibs = 4
23:13:50 <elliott> Sgeo: + compiler differences and shit
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23:14:10 <elliott> but it looks like you've already made up your mind to like D anyway, so I don't bother
23:14:17 <Gregor> Sgeo: The different compilers are wildly incompatible, as are D+Windows from D+Mac from D+Linux, mostly for author-has-never-written-portable-code reasons.
23:14:38 <Sgeo> What are some D-like languages that don't have these issues?
23:14:51 <elliott> There are no "D-like languages".
23:14:55 <elliott> D is a gigantic ball of mud.
23:15:03 <Gregor> D has some very nice properties.
23:15:08 <elliott> Gregor: It has no _unique_ properties.
23:15:19 <elliott> You cannot look at a random language and say "oh, it's like D" because D is like everything.
23:15:24 <Gregor> It has the right features from Java and the right features from C++. I know of no other language with as nice of a mix.
23:15:39 <Sgeo> What's Dylan like?
23:15:41 <elliott> Right, Java + C++, that's exactly what I've been looking for.
23:15:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Scheme with an object system and bad syntax.
23:15:56 <elliott> (The syntax was added to make it more accessible.)
23:16:02 <elliott> (It was originally just a Scheme.)
23:16:36 <elliott> Gregor: tailconst headconst what the fuck is this shit
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23:17:21 <Gregor> <Gregor> Oh, and as of the last time I looked, D2 had easily the worst const system in any language. <-- s'truth :P
23:17:41 <Gregor> It makes C++'s const types look downright peachy.
23:17:54 <elliott> Gregor: My const types are declared like this:
23:17:57 <elliott> Gregor: And errors look like:
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23:18:47 <Sgeo> Wiki on Dylan programming langage seems to be written for someone who has never seen a CLOS-like system before
23:20:54 <elliott> And with that sentence, tswett constructs the most complicated Lojban sentence anyone ever has.
23:20:56 <Sgeo> How to know if I would like a Scheme variant for reasons that elliott would deem irrational: It distinguishes itself from "just another Scheme" in the minds of the general programming project
23:21:05 <Sgeo> Hence Racket and Dylan
23:21:23 <Sgeo> [Yes, I'm considering a name change to be enough of a distinction]
23:22:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Amethyst isn't a Scheme, you can tell because of the name.
23:22:57 <Sgeo> Or because of everything you told me about it thus far
23:23:12 <elliott> Sgeo: Hey, it's homoiconic. Like Scheme!
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23:23:41 <elliott> Sgeo: It has keyword arguments, does this not make you happy
23:23:58 <Sgeo> It makes me happy, why wouldn't it?
23:24:18 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, even "[replace foo with: bar]" works. Like SMALLTALK.
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23:33:24 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, every argument is a keyword argument.
23:36:54 <Ilari> 1.79x/8 for APNIC... Wonder how long IANA is taking to process the request... Well, probably involves at least few meetings...
23:38:26 <Sgeo> Wait, the last available IPs have been requested?
23:38:50 <elliott> After this request, they'll have been allocated. RIR depletion will take a month or two, I think.
23:39:03 <elliott> And then the actual "we can't allocate shit" point will be about a month after that?
23:39:40 <elliott> Gregor: Did you ever get gcc running on jsmips?
23:40:24 <lambdabot> forall b a. (Int -> b) -> [a] -> b
23:40:28 <Gregor> Just never really got that far *shrugs*
23:40:49 <Gregor> elliott: My project-o-the-moment (again) is ZEE.
23:40:58 <tswett> Here's a more complicated Lojban sentence:
23:40:59 <Gregor> Please wait a full cycle before expecting JSMIPS again :P
23:41:04 <elliott> Is that actually being worked on, Gregor? :P
23:41:06 <tswett> coi gregor .i mo mo mo mo mo mo mo mo mo mo mo mo
23:41:24 <Gregor> elliott: It's making progress by some semi-reasonable definition.
23:41:25 <tswett> That has, like, eleven layers of nesting.
23:41:39 <Gregor> tswett: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.
23:42:34 <Ilari> Maybe first RIR (APNIC) would run out (actually, enter phase 3 with allocations restricted) something like 6-9 months after IANA depletion...
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23:43:30 <tswett> lo la bafalos visnda poi terpa lo la bafalos visna cu se terpa lo la bafalos visnda poi terpa lo la bafalos visna
23:44:47 <Sgeo> Timber's supposed to be used in embedded systems?
23:49:49 <pikhq> Gregor: Those symbols are: black, tree, ear, and ... I dunno. Juice is entirely plausible.
23:50:01 <pikhq> Gregor: (from http://9gag.com/gag/29876/)
23:50:22 <Gregor> pikhq: Well, Jews are a black tree.
23:51:15 <Ilari> Third phase has fun restrictions like maximum allocation size being 1024 addresses at once(!).
23:51:43 <pikhq> According to jisho.org, I should *know* what 露 is, and it can, depending on context, mean: dew, expose, Russia, and tears.
23:52:13 <pikhq> With dew as the primary semantics for it.
23:52:54 <Gregor> So "juice" is presumably by metaphor with "dew"
23:53:03 <Gregor> And "Jews" is by metaphor with "black tree"
23:53:10 <pikhq> And in Japanese it's a homophone for a somewhat rare word meaning either "juice" or "soup".
23:54:06 <pikhq> So, it's no wonder the English is so fucking weird. The Chinese, unless I'm missing something, is "Black tree ear dew".
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23:55:19 <pikhq> BTW, Google Translate comes up with "Black fungus Lu".
23:55:54 * Sgeo wonders about using Timber in Second Life
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23:56:57 <pikhq> For all the complaints about Notch, you must admit: it's significantly better-written than Second Life.
23:57:29 <oerjan> Gregor: i reiterate, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auricularia_auricula-judae
23:58:14 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh holy god.
23:58:17 <Gregor> oerjan: Oh, I didn't see that :P
23:58:26 <pikhq> "Jew's Ear" in Japanese is 木耳.
23:58:41 <Gregor> So ... it's actually an accurate translation? X-D
23:59:00 <pikhq> In Chinese, it's "黑木耳".
23:59:08 <elliott> The name was criticised by mycologist Curtis Gates Lloyd, who said "Auricularia auricula-Judae is cumbersome and in addition is a slander on the Jews".
23:59:16 <pikhq> So, yes, "Jew's Ear Juice" is an *entirely valid* translation.
00:01:31 <elliott> oerjan i have an off-by-one bug
00:01:46 <pikhq> Probably a bad translation choice, though.
00:02:04 <oerjan> pikhq: you don't say :D
00:02:24 <elliott> oerjan: what i'm learning here is that constructing a tree from a list is a pretty stupid idOH i see what i did there
00:02:40 <elliott> *Main> fromList [(Just Nil,Just Nil),(Just Nil,Just Nil),(Just Nil,Just Nil)]
00:02:40 <elliott> Branch (Leaf (Just Nil,Just Nil)) (Branch (Leaf (Just Nil,Just Nil)) (Leaf (Just Nil,Just Nil)))
00:03:03 <elliott> j-invariant: teach me tree algorithms
00:03:42 * pikhq is of the opinion that the "jew's ear" should just be called a "tree ear".
00:04:24 <pikhq> Or, if you prefer slightly less childish name, kikurage...
00:05:05 <elliott> j-invariant: algorithms, on trees!
00:05:40 <elliott> i should probably just use haskell's Data.Map except no because I have duplicate keys
00:05:52 <j-invariant> elliott: I can't think of any good algorithm
00:06:14 <j-invariant> elliott: just write the fold and find random functions that satisfy the type until something interesting appears
00:06:28 <Sgeo> elliott, you're implementing Amethyst?
00:08:07 <pikhq> Or, if you prefer it to be nearly impossible to pronounce right, hēimù'ěr.
00:08:41 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm pretty sure what i'm trying to write is just a B-tree
00:08:53 <elliott> just a self-balancing binary search tree
00:09:14 <elliott> well yeah but the algorithms on them :D
00:09:28 <elliott> right so red-black trees, the things i've been trying to pretend don't exist for my entire programming life
00:12:10 <quintopia> if you expect your data to be mostly random, use a splay tree instead
00:12:15 <quintopia> they are so much easier to implement
00:12:20 <j-invariant> you need syntax coloring to implement red black trees
00:13:15 <oerjan> ...you can get a lot of help with a data type which includes the color restrictions
00:13:59 <oerjan> goodmath/badmath had a post on doing red black trees in haskell iirc
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00:14:23 <j-invariant> elliott: do it in Coq, then you can extract it to haskell
00:14:30 <quintopia> i've implemented three kinds of binary trees. the straightforward "check if it needs rebalancing on every insert or delete" was like half as hard even as red-black trees
00:14:38 <quintopia> and splay trees were just ridiculously easy
00:14:41 <j-invariant> elliott: this is one of the very few examples where that approach actually works really nicely
00:14:52 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall complaining that he didn't use the best data type
00:14:52 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm not devoting that much energy to Sgeo sorry
00:15:08 <elliott> oerjan: i saw some post about doing deletion in red-black trees that modified okasaki's presentation to have "fake black" nodes or something
00:15:35 <elliott> splay trees look interesting, but lol @wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splay_tree#Deletion_Code_in_C_language
00:17:09 <elliott> i'm staring at this code and it's looking at me like
00:17:22 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm trying to implement the language to trap sgeo forever
00:17:38 <Sgeo> Will it be compilable?
00:18:08 <quintopia> elliott: it's a nice delete function isn't it? "splay the tree and then choose one child to be the new root and attach the other to it
00:18:41 <elliott> quintopia: yeah but lol at the formatting and (...) comments and sthit
00:19:06 <quintopia> i'm laughing a little on the inside
00:20:19 <elliott> soebody implement those trees for me
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00:23:10 <elliott> haskelamotsinfoticatiouslambdaluddite
00:23:18 <elliott> haskelamotsinfoticatiouslambdaludditelerpisticulatorour
00:23:27 <elliott> haskelamotsinfoticatiouslambdaludditelerpisticulatorourinkydinkalakazamtwaddlepit
00:25:12 <elliott> excuse me quintopia can you get on the phone to soebody, say:
00:25:18 <elliott> elliott wants to know why you have not
00:26:12 <elliott> quintopia have you done that
00:26:28 -!- elliott has set topic: nobody is at http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ and insert tedious clog url here.
00:26:52 -!- quintopia has set topic: soebody is at http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ and insert tedious clog url here.
00:27:16 <elliott> ok i need to aks a question here why is quintopia not splay tree in haskelmitron yet
00:28:08 <quintopia> i've heard it takes that long to get reasonably proficient in haskell starting from scratch
00:28:23 <quintopia> i'll learn haskell for a month and then do the trees in an hour
00:28:52 <elliott> quintopia: you don't know haskell?
00:28:58 <elliott> "dinosaur": the stone age version
00:29:04 <elliott> meld concepts together and stuff, i'm too tired to
00:29:39 <elliott> quintopia hav eyou called soebody yet
00:30:40 <quintopia> but i did tell soebody what you wanted
00:31:21 * Sgeo wonders if Reia is decent
00:32:11 <elliott> quintopia: ok.-;so do you know haskell yet
00:32:25 <quintopia> no, sorry. too busy reading antijokes and not caring
00:35:18 <elliott> quintopia: you are he worst
00:37:24 <oerjan> hey don't knock wurst until you try it
00:38:25 <elliott> oerjan write some fucking trees in haskell jesusc rhstit
00:43:36 <Sgeo> data Tree a = Tree Tree a Tree | NoTree
00:43:38 <pikhq> So, it seems FFvsXIII might just be what FFXIII should have been... I certainly hope so.
00:43:51 <Sgeo> oh wait, that fails
00:43:53 <j-invariant> I never understood putting 'a' in the branch
00:44:14 <Sgeo> data Tree a = Tree (Tree a) a (Tree a) | NoTree
00:44:29 <oerjan> j-invariant: um then you cannot search efficiently
00:44:33 * Sgeo hits j-invariant with a tree
00:45:25 <pikhq> It has an overworld!
00:45:39 <elliott> oerjan: you get to fix that
00:46:44 <oerjan> sadly not a supported syntax
00:47:01 <j-invariant> yeahbut even if it was it would be rubbish
00:47:02 <elliott> data Tree a = f Tree fix a where Tree'
00:48:08 <j-invariant> elliott: need to design a nice "interface" for working with algebraic numbers
00:48:20 <j-invariant> building the polynomials etc is too much hassle
00:48:57 <elliott> yes for like... a few seconds... i totally will look at it
00:49:01 <elliott> it's just amethysr taskes priority
00:49:05 <elliott> because Sgeo is the talk al the time
00:49:25 <j-invariant> elliott: I am not sure if what I have is good for continuing, or I need to rewrite
00:50:02 <elliott> j-invariant: don't rewrite just implement my change :>
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00:52:42 <elliott> my change solves all problems
00:52:45 <elliott> a magical faerieroysjdfhkgl
00:53:17 <elliott> because i'm really tired :x
00:53:37 <j-invariant> I hate the code I write, it all seems so wron
00:59:33 <Sgeo> I think I've worked out a fire suppression system
00:59:54 <Sgeo> Roof, bottom to top:
01:00:17 <Sgeo> Cobblestone, TNT, Water Springs, Cobblestone
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01:01:03 <Sgeo> Have fire detection hooked up to the TNT
01:01:14 <Sgeo> Probably some redstone mechanism, don't want to blow up the main building
01:01:24 <Sgeo> TNT blows up, destroys cobblestone, water falls
01:01:37 * Sgeo suddenly sees a flaw
01:02:13 <elliott> don't use flammable materials
01:02:31 <Sgeo> Oh come on, thinking about this sort of thing is fuN!
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01:05:51 <Mathnerd314> the possibility space - you don't have much to explore
01:06:40 <elliott> that doesn't make any sense at all
01:06:50 <Sgeo> Fire suppression mechanisms?
01:07:27 <Sgeo> There is a resource worth fighting over: Time
01:07:50 <Sgeo> In some circumstances, it might be easier to attack a neighbor than to build infrastructure and mine yourself
01:10:18 <elliott> Mathnerd314: unfortunately, your pseudo-theorising loses against the experimentally-verified fact that the game is fun. also, arbitrary circuits are hardly very finite as far as possibility space goes.
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01:16:45 <Mathnerd314> since I can ensure elliott will read the logs later:
01:16:48 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but a deadly drug could be addictive and fun too
01:17:20 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn Go
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01:41:12 <Ilari> Haha... "I guess we live in different universes." (from one mailing list post).
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02:06:05 <Ilari> Digital certificate stuff, OpenPGP vs. X.509
02:08:51 <Ilari> Hmm (from one sideset): "Users should have certified authentication keys and use these to certify their own confidentiality keys"... DNSSEC KSK/ZSK anyone (well, that's for authentication not confidentitality)?
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02:12:06 <Sgeo> Someone want to explain to me why Clojure's considered so bad?
02:12:30 <Sgeo> Besides "Someone got some CS question wrong"
02:12:46 <quintopia> it's not necessarily bad...it's just considered harmful
02:13:06 <Sgeo> harmful howso?
02:15:17 <Ilari> lol: "CA copies subjKID into authKID field" "Fields have a completely different structure" "Undetected by Eudora, Mulberry, Netscape 4.x 6.x, OpenSSL, OS X Mail, Windows"
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02:17:09 <quintopia> anyone know the way to do rectangular selection in rxvt? is possible?
02:19:07 <Ilari> "CA certs have basicConstraints CA = false (Several large CAs, PKIX RFC (!!))"
02:20:17 <Sgeo> quintopia, how is Clojure considered harmful?
02:21:01 <quintopia> sgeo: i do not actually know anything about clojure. use it and find out and report back.
02:21:17 <Sgeo> Me? Actually _use_ a language?
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02:24:25 <Ilari> "Policy text: Must be used strictly as specified in keyUsage" "Key usage: keyAgreement (for an RSA key)".
02:29:11 <Ilari> (in case someone doesn't know, you can't do keyAgreement using RSA key (it requires DH key).
02:32:21 <Ilari> "Having worked with PKI software, I wouldn't trust it to control access to our beer fridge." Developer, international software company
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02:43:34 <Ilari> Heh... What's actually unhealthy about chips / french fries?
02:43:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:45:21 <Ilari> (For soft drinks the unhealthy part is clearly fructose)
02:55:28 <Gregor> Except when it's the Jew's ear juice.
02:56:10 <quintopia> i've heard jew's ear juice is the elixir of life
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03:03:29 <Sgeo> Gregor, if you see something about CitiVille on my wall in a few minutes, don't be alarmed
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03:03:40 <Sgeo> I plan on preventing it from posting if possible
03:04:22 <Gregor> Sgeo: Thank you for the update on things I don't give one flying fuck about.
03:13:12 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Minecraft has at least as much of a possibility space as any other sandbox game.
03:13:18 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Which is to say, "insanely large".
03:13:40 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: not really... there aren't that many interactions
03:13:44 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Especially as Minecraft is practically Turing complete.
03:13:55 <pikhq> And it's not too painful to exploit this.
03:14:15 <pikhq> And it has a lot of possibilities.
03:14:21 <pikhq> And it's quite enjoyable.
03:14:37 <quintopia> the game of life is the best sandbox game
03:14:40 <pikhq> You *do* realise that we're in here because we claim to enjoy esoteric programming languages, right? :)
03:14:55 <quintopia> and it has VERY few interactions: cell on or cell off :P
03:15:45 <Mathnerd314> quintopia: right, and I find the Game of Life to be getting boring. This is all consistent.
03:16:03 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Name to me some games you actually find enjoyable.
03:16:41 <Mathnerd314> random ones on the internet, for as long as it takes to extract their underlying rules
03:16:51 <quintopia> Mathnerd314: sounds like a personal problem. if you can't get excited about Gemini then you don't belong in this channel.
03:17:12 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: "For as long as it takes to extract their underlying rules", eh?
03:17:17 <pikhq> You must hate RPGs.
03:17:31 <pikhq> Or, indeed, any other form of game.
03:17:45 <quintopia> Mathnerd314: GoL is exciting because we still don't understand its rules on a "symbolic" level. it requires /actual research/ to discover its rules. how is that boring?
03:18:03 <pikhq> Heck, I bet you are the one person to genuinely dislike Super Mario Bros.
03:18:34 <quintopia> Mathnerd314: the UCC-based knightship
03:19:18 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: You are hereby forbidden from talking about any games. Reason: lack of understanding of "fun".
03:19:19 <Sgeo> Let's port Gemini to Night&Day </insane>
03:19:47 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: my point is that most people's idea of "fun" is destructive
03:20:11 <pikhq> You are less normal than zzo38.
03:20:46 <pikhq> What *do* you find fun?
03:20:53 <quintopia> Mathnerd314: destruction is a big part of the fun of minecraft. if you don't find destructive things fun, then you are surely missing out
03:21:21 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: discussing the nature of fun on IRC
03:21:44 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: What species are you?
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03:22:09 <pikhq> quintopia: Though a descriptor, that is not a form of species.
03:23:05 <quintopia> pikhq: he may lack a description that is a form of species
03:23:11 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: homo sapiens sapiens, according to my parents
03:23:12 <quintopia> he may be pure, raw, distilled math nerd
03:23:24 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I believe that to be a lie.
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03:23:49 <Gregor> Homo sapiens mathematicus
03:24:05 <Gregor> Strictly that's the same species of course, just a different subspecies.
03:24:43 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm not sure zzo38 is a member of Homo. Though he is most likely hominid.
03:25:00 <Gregor> Hominidae pan zzolicus?
03:25:17 <Gregor> Hominidae zzolicus zzolicus?
03:25:28 <pikhq> Perhaps Hominidae posthomo zzolicus.
03:26:58 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I'm pretty sure you've given enough evidence to dispute your species claim.
03:28:44 <Mathnerd314> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100627191843AA1w2Lk
03:28:58 <Gregor> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/gpicarcher.png
03:29:00 <Mathnerd314> "Only humans can operate computers and type legible sentences."
03:29:26 <pikhq> Pretty sure computers can do that.
03:30:36 <Sgeo> Dominion episode!
03:30:45 <Sgeo> Second one to contain the text "Dominion"
03:30:51 * Sgeo is in a good mood
03:32:55 <Mathnerd314> it would be stupid of me to think that I, a being who is apparently "not human", could share any possible traits with a human, such as Sgeo
03:33:52 <Sgeo> Mathnerd314, episode 2x10 "Sanctuary"
03:34:05 <Sgeo> Maybe not a Dominion episode, but at least they got at least one mention thus far
03:34:43 <Sgeo> pound_esoteric select(chatter, chatter normal?)
03:34:47 <Sgeo> That returns 0 results
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04:00:12 <Sgeo> Hmm, I missed an episode by accident
04:03:58 <Mathnerd314> how are you watching it? google seems to think that 2 pages of torrents are more important than Wikipedia
04:11:54 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: pretty sure I can pass the turing test
04:17:10 <Sgeo> I think I like goroutines
04:17:18 <Sgeo> I just wish they were part of a better language
04:26:22 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Your incomprehension of fun is your downfall!
04:34:48 <Gregor> Is this a commercial for ITT Tech or E-Harmony?
04:39:24 <Gregor> So my Pandora shipped.
04:39:34 <Gregor> And now my greatest fear is that I'll get ZEE running on it and it'll be HORRIBLY slow.
04:39:37 <Gregor> Then I'll have to rewrite ZEE in C.
04:41:56 <pikhq> http://i.imgur.com/JW6p5.jpg
04:42:10 <Sgeo> Pandoras EXIST?!
04:42:32 <Sgeo> You actually are in posession of a functioning Pandora?!?
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04:43:08 <Gregor> Sgeo: No, USPS is in possession of my functioning Pandora.
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04:44:18 <Gregor> Well, maybe. As I complained about earlier, Royal Mail says it's in the US, and USPS says it's in the UK.
04:44:43 <Gregor> Probably it's in customs hell.
05:00:45 <Sgeo> http://www.musecorp.com this makes me sad
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05:22:48 <pikhq> Y'know, it is probably insanely hard to be a computer scientist and remain a creationist...
05:23:08 <pikhq> As soon as you hit evolutionary algorithms.
05:23:19 <pikhq> "Oh, fuck, evolution works?"
05:29:14 <Sgeo> What was my problem with Erlang the last time I looked at it?
05:29:26 <Sgeo> Centralized receive per process?
05:30:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: Probably "the language sucks".
05:30:46 <pikhq> Really good runtime environment, hosting a bad language.
05:31:52 <pikhq> ... Have you ever written anything in Erlang?
05:32:16 <Sgeo> I haven't written much in anything other than Python or C# or LSL, to be quite honest
05:33:55 <pikhq> Even at syntax *alone*, the suckiness is apparent. It makes a distinction between statements at the end of a function, the end of a nested block, or otherwise...
05:35:36 <pikhq> And its pattern matching is positively *painful* to use.
05:36:22 <pikhq> Really, in all its syntax is just very very useless-noise-filled.
05:37:48 <Sgeo> Are there any non-Go languages with Go-like channels?
05:37:49 <pikhq> And the type system is very... Questionable.
05:39:05 <pikhq> Oh, God, I forgot that it doesn't curry. :(
05:39:21 <pikhq> It's nominally functional, and it doesn't curry.
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05:46:03 <Sgeo> Are there any good languages that run on Erlang's VM, then?
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05:48:37 <Sgeo> " This is indeed unfortunate, but note this: apart from a few libraries which implement their functionality directly in the Erlang VM kernel, most libraries are written in pure Erlang and can be replaced easily. If you hate the list module, you can write your own lst."
05:48:42 <Sgeo> http://jlouisramblings.blogspot.com/2010/12/response-to-erlang-overhyped-or.html
05:48:51 <Sgeo> That is NOT a valid response to that criticism
05:49:14 <Sgeo> It's good that it's theoretically possible to do that, but do you really want to turn into D?
05:49:47 <Gregor> Hahaha, we've already got him using "D" as an insult :P
05:50:56 <pikhq> Huh. Twitter has an *entirely* different vibe in Japanese.
05:51:36 <pikhq> Because Japanese is significantly more character-dense, Twitter's character limitation turns microblogging into posting paragraphs.
05:52:18 <pikhq> (note: Twitter considers Unicode codepoints "characters", rather than bytes as characters.)
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06:32:05 <Sgeo> I still am obsessed with Erlang
06:32:11 <Sgeo> It seems like it would be a good fit for AW bots
06:32:47 <pikhq> Feel free to use it; the runtime environment is much more good than the language is bad.
06:34:02 <Sgeo> I secretly wish my project was in Erlang, or at least on its VM, rather than C#
06:53:18 <Sgeo> Ah, so Erlang is the language where it avoids having arrows like => and <= for the comparisons
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07:27:27 <Sgeo> http://learnyousomeerlang.com/static/img/circular-dependencies.png
07:32:24 <Sgeo> "However (there is always a 'however'), only andalso and orelse can be nested inside guards. This means (A orelse B) andalso C is a valid guard, while (A; B), C is not. "
07:32:35 * Sgeo starts gibbering like an idiot
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07:48:12 * Sgeo suddenly sees how a process can store state in Erlang
07:48:37 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's the typical way, nor what the typical way even looks like, but:
07:49:09 <Sgeo> It just recurses. The argument is the state. The body contains a receive that can modify if needed, then passes the modified thing as an argument into the next ... call
07:50:51 <pikhq> That is the typical way, yes.
07:51:17 <pikhq> It's essentially the standard way of handling "state" in functional languages, except with messages thrown into the mix.
07:52:26 <pikhq> Though, given Erlang actually not being referentially transparent, it really seems to me that at a minimum they should have sugar for that.
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08:28:33 <Sgeo> "They can do pretty much everything normal functions can do, except calling themselves recursively (how could they do it if they are anonymous?)"
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08:47:12 <Sgeo> Y is registered
08:49:22 <Ilari> Now the Lagerholm estimate is today and Houston estimate is February 4th...
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09:35:01 <oerjan> \o| \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ |o/
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09:53:35 <fizzie> Why are those four other guys floating in the air?
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09:53:44 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's just a perspective thing.
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11:24:39 <oerjan> you need extra spacing outside the \m/ \m/
11:24:56 <oerjan> see how one foot extends beyond it
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11:26:14 <myndzi> `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´ `\o/´
11:26:15 <myndzi> /'\ (_|¯`¯|_) /`\ (_|¯`\
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14:13:18 <elliott> 01:22:07 <Mathnerd314> elliott: perhaps MC is addictive and fun
14:13:18 <elliott> 01:22:09 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but a deadly drug could be addictive and fun too
14:13:18 <elliott> 01:22:11 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so your argument is invalid
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14:15:41 <elliott> 03:08:53 <Sgeo> Gregor, if you see something about CitiVille on my wall in a few minutes, don't be alarmed
14:15:41 <elliott> 03:09:04 <Sgeo> I plan on preventing it from posting if possible
14:15:41 <elliott> 03:09:46 <Gregor> Sgeo: Thank you for the update on things I don't give one flying fuck about.
14:16:08 <elliott> 03:20:04 <pikhq> You *do* realise that we're in here because we claim to enjoy esoteric programming languages, right? :)
14:16:08 <elliott> 03:20:18 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: you're in here, maybe.
14:16:08 <elliott> 03:21:10 <Mathnerd314> quintopia: right, and I find the Game of Life to be getting boring. This is all consistent.
14:16:12 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you are really the worst, not sure if you knew that
14:17:27 <elliott> 03:25:11 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: my point is that most people's idea of "fun" is destructive
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14:17:55 <elliott> 04:32:10 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: I know enough to pretend
14:17:55 <elliott> NOBODY UNDERSTANDS MY AUTISM BUT I CAN PRETEND TO HAVE EMOTIONS
14:18:00 <elliott> ^^^^ internet self-diagnosis in action
14:18:51 <elliott> 05:43:16 <Sgeo> Are there any non-Go languages with Go-like channels?
14:18:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Go's channels are just CSP.
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14:36:38 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/Mb483.jpg
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15:43:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, another reason for you to hate MC: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=144991
15:45:50 <Gregor> Fucking PACHELBELLLLLLLLLL
15:48:49 <Gregor> I read nothing but the title :P
15:48:53 <Gregor> I refuse to read more.
15:49:03 -!- elliott has set topic: PACHELBEL, GOD DAMN | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ and insert tedious clog url here.
15:52:29 <ais523> wtf is going on with Novell now?
15:54:01 <ais523> apparently, of the 882 patents they were going to sell, it turns out 19 of them don't exist, and 1 was counted twice
15:54:10 <ais523> according to the press release, they now have 861
15:54:24 <ais523> which is quite a failing of mathematics...
15:55:27 <Ilari> It was just patent language?
15:57:55 <ais523> anyway, the Microsoft consortium that they were going to sell too has demanded that they sell more patents in order to make up for it
15:58:05 <ais523> which really doesn't make sense, surely the value of patents is not in quantity
15:58:11 <ais523> or, well, some patents are more valuable than others...
15:58:14 <ais523> Ilari: lapsed applications
15:59:12 <elliott> ais523: the new logbot is up, btw
15:59:18 <elliott> as evidenced by my extreme laziness in setting the topic
15:59:28 <ais523> do you not have copy-and-paste?
15:59:34 -!- elliott has set topic: PACHELBEL SUCKS | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ clog clog clog.
15:59:40 <elliott> (Maybe I sent Pachelbel to hell momentarily.)
15:59:49 <elliott> ais523: I'd have to check the logs for the topic with clog in it!
15:59:53 <elliott> And my logs don't go back far enough!
15:59:58 <ais523> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
16:00:08 <elliott> Feel free to put it in, but my logs are sooo much better :P
16:00:11 <ais523> why did you not just check your browser history?
16:00:14 <elliott> At least once I fix the thing they will be.
16:00:24 <elliott> ais523: Laaaze (I set it like that when incredibly tired yesterday)
16:00:25 -!- ais523 has set topic: PACHELBEL SUCKS | logs: http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ (formatted); http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D (unformatted).
16:00:38 <ais523> the (formatted) (unformatted) dates from the days when cmeme was still running
16:01:10 <elliott> I plan to import the clog archive into fake plastic raw IRC imitation substitute format so they can be formatted by my interface sometime.
16:01:15 <elliott> (i.e. translate what little clog logs into IRC.)
16:01:31 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2011-January/088315.html (list at end)
16:01:51 <ais523> oerjan: that isn't a list, it's a map or dictionary
16:01:59 <elliott> ais523: it's a list of pairs
16:02:12 <elliott> oerjan: it's funny because
16:03:10 <oerjan> !add-interp rimshot sh echo "ba-dum, TISH!"
16:03:32 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:03:35 <ais523> oerjan: it's !addinterp
16:03:39 <ais523> I was just going to do that, but in PM
16:03:45 <oerjan> !addinterp rimshot sh echo "ba-dum, TISH!"
16:03:46 <EgoBot> Interpreter rimshot installed.
16:03:48 <ais523> and was busy looking up the syntax at the time
16:07:14 <EgoBot> Interpreter rimshot deleted.
16:07:30 <oerjan> it was the first i remembered
16:07:35 <EgoBot> 144 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++>++++++<<<<-]>.-.>+++.<+++.+++++++++++++++++.--------.>-.------------.>>.<+++.>-.<-.<+.-----------------------. [704]
16:07:40 <elliott> !addinterp rimshot bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++>++++++<<<<-]>.-.>+++.<+++.+++++++++++++++++.--------.>-.------------.>>.<+++.>-.<-.<+.-----------------------.
16:07:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter rimshot installed.
16:10:01 * oerjan watches as elliott is trampled by the yak he summoned
16:10:22 <elliott> beautiful robotic yak simulacrum
16:14:09 <j-invariant> turns out we were wrong about pi http://www2.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=909*x^5+-+3060*x^4+%2B+1814*x^3+-+3389*x^2+-+723*x+-+626
16:14:26 <j-invariant> it's not trancendental, it just can't be written in terms of radicals
16:14:59 <ais523> I suspect it's Alpha that's wrong there, rather than the old proofs
16:15:42 <ais523> what have I done to deserve that?
16:15:43 <j-invariant> maybe I should submit this to Journal of Number Theory on april 1st
16:15:50 <oerjan> A FEW COMMON DECIMALS DO NOT PI MAKE
16:16:24 <ais523> hmm, does that fifth-order polynomial just happen to match pi to lots of decimal places?
16:16:33 <ais523> a good approximation of pi might still be useful
16:17:01 <oerjan> i doubt it's particularly good compared to the size of the polynomial
16:17:14 <oerjan> however, i saw something in r/math yesterday
16:17:47 <oerjan> oh that was also from r/math
16:18:19 <oerjan> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/eApproximations.html
16:18:54 <j-invariant> oerjan: on that note, http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/f4kc0/you_are_never_asked_to_prove_a_negative_then_why/
16:18:54 <oerjan> that approximation of e _is_ incredibly good
16:19:55 <elliott> j-invariant: stop trolling :D
16:20:23 <j-invariant> elliott: I will teach a course called "Mathematically structured trolling in Agda"
16:20:48 <oerjan> "Also, don't take Ayn Rand too seriously on questions of empirical or philosophical reasoning. She didn't particularly understand either.
16:21:12 <elliott> j-invariant: W|A is not very helpful http://www2.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pi+-+(root+of+909+x^5-3060+x^4%2B1814+x^3-3389+x^2-723+x-626)
16:22:09 <elliott> oerjan: hm i know the guy who posted that, wonder if i should tell him he got trolled :)
16:22:49 <oerjan> elliott: http://www2.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=909*x%5E5+-+3060*x%5E4+%2B+1814*x%5E3+-+3389*x%5E2+-+723*x+-+626+for+x+%3D+pi
16:22:51 <elliott> i'll let him wallow in his ignorance then :D
16:23:10 <elliott> oerjan: lol at the alternate form
16:23:13 <oerjan> > let x = pi in http://www2.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=909*x%5E5+-+3060*x%5E4+%2B+1814*x%5E3+-+3389*x%5E2+-+723*x+-+626+for+x+%3D+pi
16:23:14 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
16:23:48 <oerjan> > let x = pi in 909*x^5 - 3060*x^4 + 1814*x^3 - 3389*x^2 - 723*x - 626 :: CReal
16:23:49 <lambdabot> -0.0000000000000000001128309241000195890771
16:23:58 <elliott> not the most impressive approximation
16:24:16 <oerjan> hm that's different from WA
16:24:22 <j-invariant> Pi doesn't want to be approximated by a polynomial
16:24:57 <lambdabot> 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841972
16:25:13 <oerjan> i suspect WA may not use exact arithmetic there
16:29:56 <quintopia> in a quadratic approximation for pi how fast do the constants in the quadratic grow in proportion to the number of digits of precision?
16:30:57 <j-invariant> quintopia: it looks just a bit slower than linear
16:32:56 <quintopia> you can't achieve quadratic convergence with any polynomial though?
16:33:34 <j-invariant> the constant seems to tend towards 1/4 (we would expect it to be <= 1/3)
16:35:35 <j-invariant> what I mean is, for a 4000 digit approximation, the coefficents are about 100 digits long
16:35:36 <quintopia> i thought you were answering the quadratic convergence question.
16:36:36 <j-invariant> making the degree bigger seems to actually make approximation /harder/
16:36:53 <quintopia> in other words, expressing pi as a quadratic gives a compression of at least 3/4
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16:40:15 <quintopia> if you were to choose a random number between pi-eps and pi+eps as eps->0, you'd be very likely to pick pi.
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16:41:07 <j-invariant> 16:46 < quintopia> if you were to choose a random number between pi-eps and pi+eps as eps->0, you'd be very likely to pick pi.
16:41:22 <quintopia> elliott: what's the compression factor given by huffman coding?
16:41:40 <quintopia> like 7/10 on truly random data yes?
16:41:42 <j-invariant> yeah I think huffman code works well on pi
16:41:58 <j-invariant> since pi has more of one digit than another (in the digits we have seen so far)
16:45:14 <quintopia> the difference in frequency of digits is already insignificant in just the first 10000
16:47:16 <j-invariant> "It shows no statistically significant departure from a uniform distribution. "
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16:48:31 <elliott> <j-invariant> since pi has more of one digit than another (in the digits we have seen so far)
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16:58:04 <j-invariant> I want to build a mechanical device that computes pi
16:58:36 <j-invariant> maybe I could do it in minecraft but I probably don't have enough redstone
16:59:27 <elliott> j-invariant: just use an inventory editor :P
16:59:45 <elliott> j-invariant: but it'd be a huge circuit... the cpu was made with a map editor i think
16:59:54 <elliott> you'll need like, a scrolling display
17:00:02 <j-invariant> elliott: this is just one program hard coded, it might be simpler... then again it does need arithmetic
17:00:22 <elliott> j-invariant: can you do it all with shifts i wonder
17:00:31 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/3/5/535d2d106b4243d1f9872f916b273c7a.png
17:01:00 <j-invariant> I don't think I will do it, it's not obvious how
17:03:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah but just google bbp digit extraction
17:03:28 <elliott> there's some simple python code for it
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17:31:36 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, was mc updated recently? my launcher asked me if I want to update
17:31:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it was just a lol-I-reorganised-the-site thing again
17:31:52 <Vorpal> and I don't see anything mentioned anywhere about this update
17:32:04 <Vorpal> elliott, but that means reapplying mods?
17:32:14 <elliott> Well, it's probably what caused me to lose mine.
17:33:13 <Vorpal> elliott, the md5sum is the same of my old backup and the new minecraft.jar ...
17:45:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I started a new single player world a few days ago. Rather nice scenery. But just took a look at the map of it. Found out I explored both sides of a surface lava lake some 30 blocks from spawn but completely missed the lake itself XD
17:45:32 <Vorpal> it is rather large too
17:45:44 <elliott> "Python 3 is a commercial disaster. In 2010Q3 I had negative sales of DiP3. More people returned it than bought it. I'm considering retro-fitting the book's content to Python 2.7 and re-releasing it as "Dive Into Python 2." Seriously." --Mark Pilgrim
17:46:17 <Vorpal> elliott, though in my defence the terrain is rather hilly, which was part of the reason I stuck to this world instead of throwing it away
17:47:07 <elliott> it'd be nice if you could choose to start with say a few bits of iron armour, and an iron pickaxe and sword (and only that), plus a small house in a mountain (i.e. just glass wall looking out and a door), and workbench/furnace/single chest
17:47:14 <elliott> i keep playing the same early game all the time
17:47:31 <elliott> start game on hard, build a house, it's tiny, stay in there for the night, get damn scared, go out the next day, get blown up by a creeper
17:47:43 <elliott> it'd be nice to be able to skip it :P
17:48:01 <Vorpal> elliott, oh btw there was coal like 20 blocks from spawn, reachable from ground. And a few trees nearby. Plus a perfect site for a very quick side-of-cliff shelter thing
17:48:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, I was prepared for the evening (even though I'm on peaceful) before noon of the first day
17:49:02 <elliott> hard is just the same as normal :P
17:49:05 <elliott> just slightly higher enemy hp
17:49:41 <Vorpal> elliott, only downside of this world is a lack of pumpkins. I did spot a few just now in a corner of the map (which is rather small atm)
17:50:12 <Vorpal> elliott, they are nice to have still. Besides they aren't for underwater building
17:50:20 * elliott sets clock forward to play LIGHTSPEED MINECRAFT
17:50:25 <Vorpal> and the lake near this place look large and deep enough for that sort of stuff
17:50:30 <elliott> Vorpal: also, -minecraft dammit :P
17:50:38 <elliott> as fizzie points out, -minecraft just discussed erlang
17:59:19 <olsner> on-topic/off-topic channels always swap places
17:59:49 <olsner> also, I am inches away from working preemption of user processes, I'm going to start IPC:ing after that
18:07:48 <Sgeo> elliott, is Go a decent language?/
18:08:09 <elliott> Sgeo: Can you start trying to answer questions before bothering others with them?
18:21:21 <olsner> elliott: that's not how it works. obviously.
18:21:28 <Sgeo> Going to try Planeshift again
18:21:47 <Sgeo> elliott, I _think_ I like Go's concurrency stuff
18:22:06 <Sgeo> What other CSP languages are there?
18:23:30 <Sgeo> Any modern languages other than Go? I don't see any
18:29:48 <Sgeo> Vorpal, do you too think Erlang is bad?
18:30:15 <elliott> Vorpal likes Erlang but I don't think he's as liking of it as he used to be :P
18:35:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, no not really. But sure it has it's flaws. Mostly syntax ones.
18:36:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I think that *every* non-trivial language have some flaws or ugly parts. Some simpler DSL can manage okay but that is all
18:36:35 <elliott> Certainly, but Erlang has a big ol' bag of shittiness :P
18:36:50 <Vorpal> elliott, not much more than haskell. And quite a bit less than C.
18:36:54 <elliott> Such as taking Prolog's syntax, perverting it, and then using it despite the fact that the language has no relation whatsoever to Prolog and it thus makes no sense whatsoever.
18:37:08 <elliott> Vorpal: It has side-effects, and is dynamically typed, that's like worth 100 shits more than Haskell.
18:37:20 <Vorpal> elliott, actually the first version of erlang was implemented in prolog
18:37:31 <elliott> Yes, but the language is unrelated... and that was a stupid choice of implementation language.
18:37:43 <elliott> Seriously though, I don't mind Prolog syntax in Prolog, but Erlang syntax is just ghastly :P
18:38:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, Erlang is basically CSP.
18:38:17 <Vorpal> elliott, erlang syntax is a bit idiosyncratic.
18:38:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicating_sequential_processes
18:38:38 <elliott> Model used by Go and mostly by Erlang.
18:38:45 <elliott> Occam is basically CSP: The Language.
18:38:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I just didn't recognise the acronym
18:40:29 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4DZwYqnyJM&feature=related Oh holy crap.
18:41:09 <pikhq> Qumranet, BTW, is now owned by Red Hat.
18:42:36 <elliott> "Seriously? You're asking if you can do four screens, full motion video, flash, and skype over a 128Kb connection?
18:42:36 <elliott> Of course you know the answer to that!"
18:43:13 <pikhq> Well, probably not actually a 128kb connection.
18:43:28 <elliott> has anyone actually implemented teh pure pi calculus?
18:43:40 <pikhq> But just getting it going over a 100Mb/s LAN is quite impressive.
18:43:57 <elliott> Admittedly, I have noooo idea how to compute anything with the pi calculus :P
18:44:05 <ais523> elliott: ooh, discussing pi calculus?
18:44:09 <elliott> "Although the minimalism of the π-calculus prevents us from writing programs in the normal sense, it is easy to extend the calculus. In particular, it is easy to define both control structures such as recursion, loops and sequential composition and datatypes such as first-order functions, truth values, lists and integers."
18:44:14 <elliott> So is the pi calculus TC by itself?
18:44:17 <ais523> I think so, security researchers use it all the time
18:44:19 <elliott> Or do you need some extra magic?
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18:57:42 <elliott> i'm going to invade galois
18:58:01 <elliott> ais523: Figured out what I should implement next in sg? :-P It seems like I could implement any one of 100 things but it's not clear which would be best...
18:58:19 <ais523> sounds like my NetHack TAS
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19:16:11 <coppro> holy crap 4-dimensional raytracing
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19:31:00 * Sgeo ponders learing Scala again
19:31:07 <Sgeo> Anyone remember why I put it down last time?
19:31:26 <Sgeo> I suspect it might be elliott-related reasons
19:31:57 <elliott> hey Gregor convert your hg logs to utc thanks
19:32:19 <Gregor> elliott: All they are is a dump of the clog logs, do it yourself.
19:32:35 <elliott> Gregor: customer service rating: 0/1000
19:32:43 <elliott> that might become 0/10000 real quick
19:32:48 <Gregor> elliott: You are not a customer.
19:32:58 <elliott> really? Then why am I paying you all this money?
19:33:26 <elliott> OH, wait, no, that's going to organised crime, not you.
19:33:36 <elliott> You know, that other Gregor Richards. The one who's a drug dealer.
19:33:47 <elliott> What I'm saying, Google, is: GREGOR RICHARDS IS A DRUG DEALER CODU.ORG
19:33:56 <elliott> GREGOR RICHARDS SELLS DRUGS TO PEOPLE FOR MONEY
19:34:02 <elliott> CODU.ORG CODU.ORG CODU.ORG
19:34:32 <Gregor> I don't sell drugs to people for money.
19:34:35 <Gregor> I only accept sexual favors.
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19:52:34 <elliott> ais523: does this function do what I'd expect in perl?
19:52:40 <elliott> sub foo { @_[0] =~ s/foo/bar/ }
19:52:46 <elliott> foo "hellofoo" ==> "hellobar"
19:53:07 <ais523> mutating arguments is a bit weird
19:53:12 <ais523> you could try it and find out
19:53:27 <ais523> ah, I think you might need a prototype
19:53:37 <elliott> I don't actually want to mutate :P
19:53:38 <ais523> most weird things wrt sub arguments do that
19:53:43 <elliott> sub strip_brackets { substr @_[0], 1, -1 }
19:53:46 <elliott> That should be good enough.
19:55:15 <ais523> assigning to @_ does indeed mutate the args
19:55:40 <ais523> you can use the my $arg = shift; pattern to make copies, most people do
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20:02:50 <Sgeo> Io needs better documentation
20:03:39 <elliott> I told you that at the start and you didn't listen.
20:04:13 <Sgeo> I don't remember that, just your gripe about no rules
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20:22:13 <Gregor> Well, he sure wasn't here very long.
20:27:34 <Sgeo> elliott, I don't think anyone's quite explained to me why Clojure is considered so bad
20:27:42 <Sgeo> I'm sure I've asked multiple times
20:27:46 <Sgeo> maybe my memory is failing
20:29:25 <elliott> Yah, you see, nobody wants to bother explaining to you when you'll act the same whether it's explained or not.
20:30:28 <j-invariant> oh yeah "Instead of implementing a standarised lisp ill invent my own 'cool' 'new' version"
20:31:27 <Sgeo> elliott, this channel's opinion has more influence than it deserves over whether or not I decide to look into a language
20:31:30 <Gregor> Racket is to Scheme is to Lisp as ... :P
20:31:59 * Sgeo fails to parse Gregor's analogy
20:32:29 <elliott> j-invariant: hey that's what I do :D
20:32:35 <elliott> that's what the Racket guys ended up doing too
20:32:43 <elliott> clojure is just a bad language though
20:32:46 <Gregor> Scheme is a dialect of Lisp. Racket is a dialect of Scheme. Clojure is a dialect of Lisp. All of them suffer from the same problem: Lisp is fucking terrible.
20:34:13 <Gregor> Well, more to the point, it sucks to see things that are in the Lisp family when you're in language design, because basically it's easy to do lots of things when the programmer just hands you an AST.
20:34:26 <Gregor> Why these people are so afraid of syntax is beyond me.
20:35:31 <Gregor> Although all these dialects of Lisp slowly add tidbits of syntax to it, fundamentally Lisp is "I'm too lazy to parse, give me the AST."
20:35:42 <elliott> Gregor: Incidentally, you're wrong.
20:35:54 <elliott> Or, at least, have never tried writing a macro that operates on, oh, JavaScript's AST.
20:36:04 <Gregor> Nonono, this is my very point!
20:36:18 <elliott> (I also wonder how you can like JavaScript when the only reason JavaScript doesn't have Scheme's syntax is that Brendan Eich wasn't /allowed/ to use a non-Java-like syntax.)
20:36:27 <Gregor> That kind of thing is easier exactly because Lisp has no syntax. "Code is data" is easy when your code is a friggin' tree.
20:36:36 <elliott> Yes... and that's an advantage of Lisp.
20:36:47 <elliott> Whether you think that worth the tradeoff or not is personal.
20:36:58 <Gregor> Of course it is, I'm presenting an opinion here.
20:37:04 <Sgeo> Nimrod has syntax but can manipulate the tree
20:37:08 <Sgeo> Don't know how easily
20:37:15 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but you're portraying Lisp as based on laziness which is just... dumb.
20:37:35 <Gregor> elliott: God I love the complete inability to understand humor :P
20:38:00 <elliott> Gregor: Well, evidently Phantom_Hoover missed the humour, and j-invariant's typo'd attempt at "what :D" seemed at least a little uncertain.
20:38:09 <elliott> It is worth considering that your American blend of humour is neither funny nor detectable :P
20:38:25 <elliott> <Gregor> Well, more to the point, it sucks to see things that are in the Lisp family when you're in language design, because basically it's easy to do lots of things when the programmer just hands you an AST.
20:38:29 <elliott> ^^ This strikes me as jealousy :P
20:38:49 <elliott> Also, "good" Racket code has very, very little in common with "good" R5RS code.
20:38:55 <elliott> So saying Racket is a dialect of Scheme is tenuous at best.
20:39:07 <Gregor> But anyway, more to the point, I feel that that ends up hindering some developments in language design, because every time somebody introduces a powerful macro system or similar for a very different language, some LischePLTrackjure guy trolls "well <my language> has X, why doesn't yours durpadurp"
20:39:50 <elliott> Gregor: The Smug Lisp Weenie is intensely irritating but mostly fictional outside of the more idiotic parts of IRC and blog comments.
20:40:08 <Gregor> elliott: You should give a presentation at a language design conference some time.
20:40:33 <elliott> Now let me try and find the appropriate bit of copypasta for the occasion.
20:41:05 <Sgeo> Now to watch the DS9 episode that I accidentally skipped
20:41:13 <elliott> Gregor: Meanwhile: "Given that mathematics is universal, lambda calculus is universal. The lambda notation is about the simplest that we can imagine to represent computation. LISP is a computer language based on this notation. Therefore it seems a strong possibility to me that alien computer scientists have something very much like LISP, or Scheme."
20:41:44 <Gregor> ... aliens totes are human dude.
20:41:50 <Gregor> They just have rubber foreheads.
20:41:55 <elliott> And the top-voted answer is affirmative, by Matt Might, which upsets me because Matt Might is cool.
20:42:04 <elliott> That is why he is watching DS9.
20:42:26 <elliott> Oh my god I want a degree in Xenupsychology.
20:43:15 <elliott> I CANNOT FIND THE LISP ALIEN COPYPASTA GOD DAMN.
20:43:36 <elliott> Oh, I finally remember the name :P
20:44:05 <elliott> ...and still can't fucking find it
20:51:04 <Gregor> Related: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/gpicarcher.png
20:52:18 <elliott> Gregor: I... what... it's so beautiful but I...
20:52:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> I CANNOT FIND THE LISP ALIEN COPYPASTA GOD DAMN. <-- ?
20:52:39 <elliott> Vorpal: The suave yoshi lisp.
20:52:47 <Vorpal> elliott, what on earth is that
20:52:57 <Gregor> elliott: http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13529
20:53:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: I... what... it's so beautiful but I... <-- weird, but /not/ beautiful
20:53:03 <elliott> Specifically, the merger of the suave yoshi lisp with the tablecat that I ONCE SAW
20:53:11 <elliott> THE WORLD IS MADE OUT OF PICARD
20:53:29 * Sgeo hears of REBOL
20:53:45 <Vorpal> elliott, some redshirt cut off his head and put it on an arrowhead?
20:54:00 <Vorpal> elliott, it's his head
20:54:14 <elliott> Picard shooting Picard heads with his Picard head hands, what is the problem
20:54:36 <elliott> Sgeo: Read the entire archives of http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/. Not only do they contain helpful opinions on languages, but by gosh, they even have *reasoning*, and to boot, you'll GET SOME GODDAMN TASTE IN LANGUAGES WITHOUT HAVING TO ASK US.
21:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott, that blog looks very interesting
21:00:51 <elliott> Vorpal: The archives are all great and new posts, while slow to arrive, are almost always interesting.
21:01:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll bookmark it I think
21:01:16 <elliott> I'm not sure how I came across it -- it's on the Loper OS blogroll, but I read it before I noticed that -- but I've read it since.
21:01:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I never looked at blogging, how do those blogrolls work? Just a link list to other blogs you like?
21:02:12 <elliott> It's just yet another blogosphere blogannoying term.
21:02:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so a fancy name that just obscures the actual purpose
21:02:31 <elliott> Blogosphere linkvlog blogtastic blogmother bloggery.
21:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it's like those weird things, forgot the word... not "trackbacks" but something similare
21:02:53 <Vorpal> which gives strange comments sometimes
21:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, could be but I don't think so
21:04:08 <Vorpal> elliott, well I never figured out what they were for, but sometimes you see comments that are entirely link, the text being some phrase like someone talking about the blog post you just read.
21:04:17 <Vorpal> and which goes to another blog or something such
21:04:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Trackback, surely.
21:04:34 <elliott> A trackback is one of three types of linkbacks, methods for Web authors to request notification when somebody links to one of their documents. This enables authors to keep track of who is linking, and so referring, to their articles. Some weblog software programs, such as Wordpress, Drupal and Movable Type, support automatic pingbacks where all the links in a published article can be pinged when the article is published. The term is used colloqui
21:04:35 <elliott> ally for any kind of linkback.
21:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh so it was that then?
21:04:55 <elliott> Yeah, trackbacks are almost never valuable... if you really want to say that you've written a post in reply, make a fucking comment :P
21:05:11 <Vorpal> in this context it is confusing
21:05:12 <elliott> Vorpal: WE CAN OVERLOAD AS MUCH TERMINOLOGY AS WE WANT WE'RE WEB 1.99999 VISIONEERS
21:05:23 <elliott> visioneers==vision+engineer+ENERGY
21:05:27 <Vorpal> elliott, hah at web 1.999999 :P
21:05:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well I don't get what *these* pings do anyway
21:05:43 <elliott> Vorpal: We don't believe that 1.9 recurring equals 2. 1.9 recurring offers...infinite possibilities.
21:07:14 <elliott> In which Quadrescence tells /r/lisp they need to add his stupid post to the sidebar: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/f3feh/i_changed_the_links_in_the_right_side_bar_what_do/c1d0539
21:07:51 <elliott> (Bonus: Pretending to KNOW MATH by way of superfluous LaTeX and Greek letters.)
21:08:14 <elliott> (And an irritating uppercase Lisp style, and an irritating strawman-dialogue-based format.)
21:09:01 <Vorpal> elliott, hm does haskell have any function in prelude for ∏ ? Yes it is trivial with some fold but since it has sum as a shorthand for folding with (+) basically...
21:09:15 <elliott> Pi types are just dependent functions, silly!
21:09:20 <elliott> Vorpal: (Yes, it's called product.)
21:09:26 <elliott> factorial n = product [1..n]
21:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, my Good Deed For The Week is pointing APT Guy at Learn You a Haskell.
21:09:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't he hate functional programming?
21:09:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant ∏ as in product the way ∑ is the sum!
21:09:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried prod and didn't work (of course)
21:10:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, ∑ is the symbol for sum types, what of it?!
21:10:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I just couldn't imagine haskell using a longer name for it
21:10:14 <elliott> If you want the non-dependent version, which is all you can get in Haskell, just use a tuple!
21:10:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, he seemed more to have tried it and not liked it very much.
21:10:20 <elliott> Lots of Haskell names are long.
21:10:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yes yes it is overloaded
21:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, true but not those common ones
21:10:35 <elliott> Product isn't very common :P
21:10:37 <Vorpal> elliott, foldl vs. foldleft or such
21:10:50 <oerjan> <elliott> has anyone actually implemented teh pure pi calculus? <-- possibly Pict, by haskell guy benjamin pierce et al.
21:10:51 <Vorpal> elliott, uh it is? As a math operation...
21:11:13 <oerjan> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/papers/pict/Html/Pict.html
21:11:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Not all code is numeric.
21:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott, also foldl1 vs. foldleftusingfirstarg
21:11:51 <Vorpal> elliott, and I don't think I ever actually used foldl1 :P
21:11:55 <elliott> Haskell uses camel-case, you silly.
21:12:03 <elliott> foldl is almost never useful though, vs foldl'.
21:12:21 <elliott> Haskell Integers suck because they're strict :(
21:12:22 <Vorpal> elliott, foldr1 then. Never used that either
21:12:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Good, because it doesn't exist.
21:12:31 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> a) -> [a] -> a
21:12:40 <Vorpal> elliott, see! It is that useless :P
21:12:58 <elliott> oerjan: also, say no to backscroll, use convenient, low-fat formatted logs! http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/
21:13:01 <elliott> ALL THANKS TO NOTCH'S DEAD BROTHER
21:13:11 <Vorpal> elliott, and foldl' which is rather useful *is not in Prelude*. This is just silly
21:13:18 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
21:13:27 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, did that change recently?
21:13:33 <Sgeo> Rebsites? Really?
21:13:39 <elliott> But Data.List is a must-have anyway :P
21:13:59 <elliott> Vorpal: The trend is more towards shrinking the Prelude anyway.
21:14:04 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed. But really it should be in Prelude. Or plain foldl/foldr should be in Data.List
21:14:05 <elliott> (Although that hasn't happened for backwards-compat reasons.)
21:14:10 <Vorpal> currently it is inconsistent
21:14:16 <elliott> Vorpal: No way, foldl/foldr are useful in every single program ever :P
21:14:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and foldl' is useful in every other program :P
21:14:28 <elliott> But a featureless Prelude would suck.
21:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, is asking for some sort of consistency too much?
21:15:03 <elliott> Do what I do, use functions and if you get a "lol what is this" error add more modules until it works.
21:15:07 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes I don't really think that foldl/foldr should be in Data.List. But then I don't think foldl' should be either
21:16:05 <Vorpal> <j-invariant> HOW THE HELL DOES GOOGLE WORK? O_O <-- why did you ask that now?
21:16:30 <elliott> Interestingly if you replace GHC's error messages beyond the file and line number and the relevant identifiers mentioned with Lorem Ipsum, the productivity of Haskell programmers is not affected in the slightest.
21:16:30 <Vorpal> j-invariant, also, stupid AI basically.
21:18:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that would almost be true. Not quite. When I got syntax error it was actually rather helpful once
21:18:25 <Vorpal> elliott, but otherwise it is usually not.
21:18:31 <elliott> Vorpal: That is unheard of.
21:18:36 <Vorpal> j-invariant, it means something, but not very much :P
21:18:37 <elliott> You will have to repeat it in scientifically-valid experimental conditions.
21:18:44 <elliott> Otherwise it's pure anecdote.
21:19:18 <Vorpal> elliott, it was something like forgetting a - in the -> in a type signature iirc
21:19:28 <Vorpal> elliott, some simple typo like that
21:19:28 <oerjan> <elliott> Oh my god I want a degree in Xenupsychology. <-- HEY I'M SURE ALL YOU NEED TO GET STARTED IS TO BE A FAITHFUL SCIENTOLOGIST FOR A FEW DECADES
21:19:37 <Vorpal> elliott, or perhaps the > of it
21:19:58 <Vorpal> elliott, also iirc it gave rather useful error message when I had a case of unmatched [
21:20:21 <Vorpal> elliott, so I maintain that it can give useful help for trivial syntax errors. But not for any other errors
21:21:48 <elliott> so wait what are you writing
21:22:06 <Vorpal> elliott, right now? English
21:22:12 <elliott> i mean that you need product for
21:22:36 <Vorpal> elliott, oh. Just tried to work out a simple equation :P
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21:22:59 <Vorpal> elliott, closed the window, so won't copy what I wrote
21:23:10 <Vorpal> and I have it on paper
21:23:19 <elliott> Vorpal: How much TNT you need to blow up the Cube when it's done?
21:23:22 <Vorpal> (not the code but the equation)
21:23:34 <Vorpal> elliott, this was university related.
21:23:37 <elliott> Thank god for LavaLite Inc's patented TNT Prevention System, integrated into all LavaLite lighting products.
21:23:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that it won't destory lava? Well indeed it won't I think
21:24:03 <Vorpal> should protect like water does
21:24:19 <elliott> So the most you can destroy of the Cube with one detonation without, like, going up the stairs is a floor.
21:24:26 <elliott> (And most likely less than that.)
21:24:29 <Vorpal> elliott, will destroy a lot sideways
21:24:40 <elliott> Sure, but the damage will be very localised.
21:24:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway Ḯ'm not you. I don't do this kind of stuff
21:24:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I do not blow up for other people
21:25:03 <elliott> CUBE INDUSTRIES TAKES NO CHANCES.
21:25:15 <Vorpal> elliott, no longer HHI? I see
21:25:25 <elliott> The Cube has never been HHI property.
21:25:35 <elliott> Also, Cube Industries is at war with Hoover Heavy Industries. And always has been!
21:25:36 <pikhq> elliott: Lava is more destructable than bedrock.
21:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, "always". Right
21:25:54 <elliott> pikhq: Can you destroy lava with only about 6-7 height to do it in?
21:26:00 <elliott> Possibly even a little bit less?
21:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: (126x126 floor space, but that's not really relevant.)
21:26:33 <pikhq> Lessee. Block resistance of 500...
21:27:03 -!- impomatic has left (?).
21:27:28 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: No way, foldl/foldr are useful in every single program ever :P <-- foldr yes, but maybe foldl and foldl' should have switched places
21:27:54 <pikhq> If you manage to get a 7-height high tower of TNT to be all primed simultaneously, you can destroy a single block of lava.
21:28:03 <elliott> oerjan: otoh putting strict things in the stdlib feels wrong
21:28:06 <elliott> and this includes Integers :)
21:28:13 <elliott> pikhq: Consider that it's actually
21:28:27 <elliott> pikhq: So it'd have to puncture the glass, *and* the lava, *and* glass to affect the floor above.
21:28:31 <pikhq> Oh, there's glass in the way?
21:28:36 <pikhq> You'll need much more TNT.
21:28:40 <Vorpal> why is there no foldr'
21:28:45 <Vorpal> well of course it doesn't make sense
21:28:46 <elliott> Lava sandwiched in-between glass for ceilings.
21:28:51 <elliott> Oh, technically you can puncture one floor.
21:28:54 <elliott> Lava is only every two floors.
21:29:08 <pikhq> BTW, I'm presuming you mean *stationary* lava; flowing lava has a block resistance of 0.
21:29:13 <pikhq> Not that that matters much. :P
21:29:19 <Vorpal> elliott, it is so unsymmetric
21:29:23 <elliott> pikhq: Stationary, yes. 16 thousand of it every two floors.
21:29:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Clearly there should be one "fold" function, that takes a fold specifier.
21:29:38 <pikhq> elliott: That gigantic Sphere O' TNT would do a number on it.
21:29:45 <elliott> pikhq: It wouldn't fit into that height.
21:30:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: The one that put a hole in the bedrock.
21:30:36 <elliott> Vorpal: data FoldDirection = Left | Right / data Fold = Fold { direction :: FoldDirection, one :: Bool, isStrict :: Bool }
21:30:36 * pikhq tries to find again
21:30:57 <elliott> Vorpal: data FoldDirection = Left | Right / data Fold a = Fold { direction :: FoldDirection, base :: Maybe a, isStrict :: Bool }
21:31:06 <elliott> (Nothing for base to get fold*1)
21:31:22 <elliott> Oh wait, the types of the function differ for each.
21:31:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZKtvHQSNY
21:31:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway bedrock have higher resistance than fluids. You wouldn't as much TNT to blow up obsidian for example. Fluid: even less
21:32:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but if it puts a hole in the *fucking bedrock*, it's going to destroy fluids.
21:32:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but it will be overkill :P
21:32:58 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZKtvHQSNY <-- nice music during the title screen!
21:33:28 <oerjan> <elliott> and this includes Integers :) <-- well if you make integers lazy i think it's not quite obvious exactly how lazy they should be
21:34:09 <elliott> oerjan: data Nat = Z | S Nat / data Integer = MinusS Nat | Zero | PosS Nat
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21:34:18 <elliott> oerjan: can it _get_ any lazier? hmm maybe sign could be made lazy?
21:34:46 <elliott> data Pos = One | Succ Pos; data Sign = Negative | Positive; data Integer = Zero | Signed Sign Pos
21:34:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, in fact extremely nice music in that video!
21:35:00 <Vorpal> that guy have good taste
21:35:07 <elliott> oerjan: or even just type Integer = (Nat, Nat) representing (a-b) :P
21:36:22 <oerjan> <Vorpal> why is there no foldr' <-- i guess it's less useful because you end up recursing on the stack anyway, unless you actually build a reversed list first
21:37:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was joking a bit. :P
21:38:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... the free-altitude water and lava lake generation can punch holes in the bedrock. Could perhaps that hole have been caused by that?
21:39:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: The thing is, bedrock actually does have finite TNT resistance...
21:40:02 <pikhq> And the hole is right at the epicenter of the explosion.
21:40:07 <elliott> Vorpal: That seems incredibly unlikely given what pikhq said.
21:40:11 <elliott> And considering it's the ONLY hole.
21:40:11 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the chat window, to the place where you reply
21:40:25 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ...why did you tell us that?
21:40:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Also it's from December.
21:40:33 <elliott> Vorpal: So pre-lava-lakes-anywhere.
21:40:44 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: can it _get_ any lazier? hmm maybe sign could be made lazy? <-- it's not that it can get lazier but that the maximally lazy choices are not _unique_, in my view
21:40:50 <Vorpal> elliott, which was added in mid-december
21:40:54 <Mathnerd314> elliott: because someone else told me, and I liked knowing
21:41:01 <elliott> oerjan: well no, but as long as it _is_ maximally lazy
21:41:11 <oerjan> or more precisely, not canonical
21:41:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: can't you reply wherever you are? i haven't seen a client which scrolls the input line.
21:41:21 <elliott> oerjan: well nor are various things in the Prelude
21:41:41 <elliott> "data Bool = False | True", why not "data Bool = Bool (Maybe ())"
21:44:52 <elliott> well apart from the fact that the latter has more values than the former
21:44:59 <elliott> former has three, latter has four
21:45:05 * elliott waits for Vorpal to go wtf
21:45:32 <oerjan> no they both have infinitely many :D
21:45:45 <oerjan> (well in ghc, not in haskell98)
21:45:47 <elliott> oerjan: isn't it generally assumed that all bottoms are equal
21:46:03 <elliott> if you don't mean that i don't know what you do mean
21:46:13 <elliott> something to do with exception catching maybe?
21:46:27 <oerjan> elliott: they developed a theory of imprecise exception precisely to distinguish those
21:46:39 <elliott> how does it have infinite values then?
21:46:45 <elliott> oh wait, to distinguish them?
21:47:07 <elliott> oerjan: who came up with that, if it's not oleg, i'm going to slap them
21:47:24 <oerjan> one of the big haskell guys, but not oleg iirc
21:47:51 <oerjan> it was to give a mostly pure semantics to exceptions from pure code
21:47:52 * Sgeo is glad he is not photosensitive epileptic
21:47:57 <elliott> dons? (ha ha yeah right dons does nothing but market (i know this isn't true))
21:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, how did that TNT thing blow a hole in the bedrock?
21:48:18 <elliott> oerjan: mostly pure, but only if you're merely somewhat pregnant
21:48:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently there is more to TNT than we know.
21:48:43 <Vorpal> * elliott waits for Vorpal to go wtf <-- you meant bottom I presume
21:48:50 <oerjan> "A semantics for imprecise exceptions. Simon Peyton Jones, Alastair Reid, Tony Hoare, Simon Marlow, Fergus Henderson."
21:48:58 <elliott> (True | False) has values [True, False, _|_]
21:49:00 <Vorpal> elliott, then I see no reason to go wtf
21:49:15 <elliott> (Maybe ()) has values [Nothing, Just (), Just _|_, _|_]
21:49:22 <elliott> hmm can you enumerate such values from within haskell?
21:49:28 <elliott> enumeration of () is [(), _|_]
21:49:34 <elliott> so that enumeration of (Maybe ()) is trivial
21:49:39 <Vorpal> elliott, but I think bottom is wrong. It shouldn't exist.
21:49:51 <elliott> Nothing : map Just enumeration ++ [bottom]
21:49:58 <elliott> Vorpal: you like sub-TC langs then?
21:50:06 <Vorpal> elliott, total programming ftw!
21:51:32 <Vorpal> elliott, and indeed. Though I strongly suspect that a nice way to do things might be to write as much as you can in a total language and then turn on some special TC-monad (okay I might need to work on that idea) to use in case you need a infinite mainloop that can't just be bound by input length (such as a server)
21:52:21 <elliott> Partiality monads exist...but er, what you said doesn't really make sense.
21:52:26 <elliott> It does if TCness is part of IO... kinda.
21:52:32 <elliott> But it's a real semantic headache.
21:52:41 <elliott> You can't just put random shit in monads to wave semantic issues away :P
21:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, well as I said I might need to work on the exact terms
21:52:56 <Vorpal> elliott, the idea I have is kind of vague
21:52:56 <elliott> Also, servers can be done totally.
21:53:14 <Vorpal> elliott, ah yes heard about that, should probably look closer at FRP
21:53:39 <Vorpal> elliott, does it move the main loop magic outside your code or how does it manage to do this totally?
21:54:11 <elliott> FRP isn't about totalness, it's an entirely separate thing.
21:54:22 <elliott> But, er, the main loop part is, as we say, an implementation detail.
21:54:33 <elliott> Indeed an OS, for instance, is likely to only have one gigantic main loop, at least conceptually.
21:54:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, an obvious solution to the server thing is to do it like some sort of inetd style (but for each byte or whatever). But that just shifts the non-totality elsewhere
21:54:45 <elliott> It doesn't shift it, it removes it from the language.
21:55:01 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but it would end up outside the language still, no?
21:55:06 <Vorpal> in the runtime or whatever
21:55:12 <elliott> CPUs are imperative, hard to avoid that.
21:55:31 <Vorpal> elliott, not imperative!
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21:55:46 <elliott> I think Reduceron does IO with lazy streams.
21:55:49 <elliott> So you could build FRP on top of that.
21:55:51 <oerjan> elliott: it wasn't oleg but i recognize at least three big names in there
21:56:02 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds awesome. But what does it mean in practise for hardware
21:56:16 <oerjan> elliott: both simons, and hoare
21:56:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The Reduceron isn't very fast, I don't think.
21:56:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course the IO port stuff is probably based on polling, as I think it is in every CPU :P
21:56:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant, what does lazy streams mean in practise at the hardware level
21:56:55 <Vorpal> elliott, oh wait, nvm. I confused two concepts :P
21:56:55 <elliott> Vorpal: The Reduceron does everything as functions (well graph rewrite rules, but), so they mean functions :P
21:58:07 <Vorpal> elliott, kind of scary: the first google result for "lazy streams" (without quotes) is "[PDF] Implementing Lazy Streams in C++"
21:58:28 <elliott> Lazy streams = infinite lists :P
21:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, as I said, I googled it because I was confusing it with another concept
21:59:53 <Vorpal> elliott, it sucks that google replaced "view as html" with that "Quick View" because "Quick View" just stalls in a progressbar for me and never works
22:00:20 <Vorpal> hey, I got a "broken image" now instead on it
22:00:28 <elliott> It renders text SUPREMELY badly.
22:00:47 <Sgeo> "which will turn the star's carbon and oxygen into elemental hydrogen"
22:01:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the old "view as html" was at least good shit. I mean, it let you quickly scan the start, then if you found it interesting you opened the pdf to get the formulas and such to display
22:01:06 <j-invariant> I feel like such shit for not being able to get a proof of this theorem
22:01:12 <Sgeo> oerjan, Star Trek
22:01:42 <oerjan> well it's certainly not realistic physics afaik
22:02:02 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, my PDF reader opens instantly with no fuss :P
22:02:18 <elliott> I even disabled the prompt for PDF downloads.
22:02:32 <oerjan> maybe it could happen briefly in a big crunch or big rip scenario
22:02:42 <elliott> The "remembers your place in a document and zoom settings" is actually really nice :P
22:02:56 <Vorpal> elliott, okay get back to me when I can get 1 TB SSD for not more than 1.5 the price of such a HDD
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22:03:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I need volume more than I need instantness
22:03:32 <elliott> What has that got to do with anything...
22:03:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I use evince. It does not open instantly when MC just been running and filling the RAM :P
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22:16:17 <elliott> Don't worry, the Alacrity Project will save GNOME 2...
22:19:09 <elliott> Vorpal: So what are you switching to when GNOME 3 comes out: GNOME 3 "Shit Edition", Ubuntu Unity "We Just Think It Looks Cool, That's All" or Alacrity??!?!?!
22:19:45 <elliott> "MCEdit Alpha 78.1 for Python2.7 on Linux (one-time build, no updates)" What the fuck does that mean, it's Python, all you have to do is copy some .pycs, dickwad...
22:21:28 <Vorpal> elliott, likely xfce if gnome 3 is bad
22:21:31 <elliott> "The GNOME 2 desktop had a long life, and parts of it became difficult to maintain over that period. As a result, continued releases of the entire GNOME 2 desktop was never a practical option for the GNOME Project, and several parts of the old GNOME 2 desktop will not receive new releases after GNOME 3 is released. The traditional GNOME 2 desktop will not disappear overnight, however: releases of GNOME 2 will continue to be supported by Linux dis
22:21:31 <elliott> tributions for years to come."
22:21:35 <elliott> Yep, Alacrity is inevitable.
22:21:37 <Vorpal> elliott, when is gnome 3 about to come out?
22:22:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Alacrity is the it's-a-word-and-nobody's-used-it-so-I'll-take-it name for the maintenance work I'm going to do on several pertinent components of GNOME 2.
22:23:00 <Vorpal> elliott, wait. gnome3 looks like a bad ripoff on KDE 4
22:23:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Specifically, I'll maintain gnome-panel and possibly others if they get thrown out.
22:23:30 <elliott> The idea is that you use the GNOME 3 applications (which are not anything other than continuations of the GNOME 2 versions), but keep the GNOME 2 desktop around them.
22:24:00 <Vorpal> elliott, unless xfce decides to go batshit insane too (in which case I'm truly lost) it is a decent alternative
22:24:18 <Vorpal> elliott, good idea. If you decide to do this
22:24:19 <elliott> Thankfully, gnome-panel should not take much maintaining, as it's a stable codebase.
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22:26:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I didn't see your last messages thanks to netsplit...
22:26:30 <elliott> But yeah, I will do it, since I don't like Xfce for various niggly reasons :P
22:26:32 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, unless xfce decides to go batshit insane too (in which case I'm truly lost) it is a decent alternative
22:26:32 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, good idea. If you decide to do this
22:26:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> Thankfully, gnome-panel should not take much maintaining, as it's a stable codebase.
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22:26:41 <elliott> 22:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, wait. gnome3 looks like a bad ripoff on KDE 4
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22:27:37 <Sgeo> The new GNOME?
22:27:39 <Sgeo> <elliott> 22:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, wait. gnome3 looks like a bad ripoff on KDE 4
22:27:39 <elliott> Vorpal: I hope they don't drop Nautilus too, as that would be a big maintenance task...
22:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I saw a lot you sent since then
22:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what a weird netsplit
22:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps the routes are async?
22:28:03 <elliott> That happened last netsplit too I think.
22:28:42 <elliott> fucking mcedit linux build doesn't work on python 2.6 ubuntu
22:29:05 <Vorpal> elliott, mcedit is closed source iirc?
22:29:12 <Vorpal> elliott, and include the *.pyc files
22:29:21 <Vorpal> elliott, so you need to run it with the same version
22:29:29 <Vorpal> elliott, and last I checked it was 2.6-only?
22:29:30 <elliott> But that's impossible on Ubuntu without manually compiling pygame for 2.7.
22:29:39 <Vorpal> elliott, then it changed recently
22:30:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I get the feeling he doesn't give a shit about Linux: "MCEdit Alpha 78.1 for Python2.7 on Linux (one-time build, no updates)"
22:30:27 <elliott> I'll use an older version... unless this is the one for beta.
22:30:37 <elliott> I'm going to use the win32 version.
22:30:39 <Vorpal> elliott, it used to be updated regularly for linux
22:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, mcedit sucks anyway
22:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, it is slow and hard to use
22:30:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Got anything better for tiling the landscape with TNT?
22:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, hmod/bukkit + worldedit
22:31:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't have the resources for that, and besides Bukkit isn't out.
22:31:46 <elliott> And hMod doesn't work with the current MC version.
22:32:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well worldedit is easy to use :P
22:32:48 <elliott> But impossible to use, as above.
22:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, like: type //wand, get wooden axe, left click with it to select a corner, right click to select other corner
22:33:01 <Vorpal> then you just use //expand if you need it to go up/down
22:33:05 <elliott> Yes, yes, yes. How does it show corners, anyway?
22:33:09 <elliott> Turning them into glass? :P
22:33:22 <Vorpal> elliott, well it doesn't show them, never found it an issue
22:33:30 <Vorpal> I mean you see where you aim when you click
22:33:48 <Vorpal> elliott, and it is easy to figure out what expanding say 4 down would do
22:34:09 <Vorpal> elliott, and you might want to use //overlay tnt
22:34:21 <Vorpal> will would cover the top blocks below any air in the selection with TNT
22:34:25 <elliott> Yes, but *I can't because hMod doesn't work with the current MC*.
22:34:39 <Vorpal> just do something like //expand 20 u to make sure to go above hills (or more)
22:35:35 <Vorpal> elliott, of you could stand in a cavern and type //fillr tnt 200 to recursively replace all airblocks connected to the block you are standing in (from you feet height and below only) for 200 steps
22:35:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, exploding massive amounts of TNT explodes servers. The client seems to be much better at it (especially with optimine, which HEAVILY optimises TNT).
22:35:56 <oerjan> sebbu2 is now known as ta_mere <-- classy :D
22:36:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, shouldn't it be "le"?
22:36:20 <Vorpal> or is this not French?
22:36:31 <Vorpal> wait, is it le mere or la mere?
22:36:41 <Vorpal> elliott, they should make worldedit for single player as a mod
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22:37:34 <Vorpal> elliott, worldedit can also fix snow. You type //snow 20 and it snows in a radius of 20 from you. Handling water -> ice and such too
22:37:56 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and //thaw and //drain and such exists too of course
22:37:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Unfortunately duplicating such work is not appealing to mod authors, as it's essentially coding the same shit over and over thanks to Notch's bad design.
22:38:01 <Vorpal> and //fixwater or //fixlava
22:38:09 <Vorpal> elliott, couldn't code be reused?
22:38:16 <elliott> Sure... but it's still a pain.
22:39:29 <oerjan> Vorpal: "ta" means "your"
22:39:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, and mere is sea isn't it?
22:39:53 <elliott> I doubt in this context :P
22:39:57 <oerjan> `translatefromto fr en mere
22:40:11 <elliott> *sigh* MCEdit doesn't work in WINE _or_ Mono.
22:40:18 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:40:24 <Vorpal> elliott, mono? it is python!
22:40:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you make no sense :P
22:40:51 <elliott> wine: Unimplemented function msvcr90.dll._get_output_format called at address 0x7b8352a2 (thread 0009), starting debugger...
22:41:09 <Vorpal> elliott, get the native dll in question using it
22:41:47 <elliott> Have I mentioned: Fuck closed-source software.
22:41:57 <Vorpal> elliott, write you own!
22:42:10 <Vorpal> elliott, heck a layer by layer 2D view would be useful
22:42:12 <elliott> Maybe mcmap will get an editor! It already does display!
22:42:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I was thinking that, yeah.
22:42:23 <elliott> also lol @ this should be in -minecraft
22:42:24 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't ones exist already
22:42:40 <Vorpal> elliott, no... it should be here
22:42:51 <Vorpal> elliott, why should it be in esoteric *minus* minecraft
22:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, you make no sense!
22:44:17 <elliott> "Impressive apps that work really, really well, and that anyone can try for free, are a great tool for demonstrating Wine to skeptical audiences. (And potentially good for automated regression testing.)"
22:44:19 <elliott> Now that's just dishonest.
22:44:39 <elliott> "To make sure you don't realise that Wine can't run 90% of games until you switch to Linux, here's a misleadingly good demonstration."
22:45:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it runs portal just fine btw
22:45:30 <elliott> Reminds me that I need to buy http://store.steampowered.com/sub/2546/ sometime.
22:46:27 <Vorpal> elliott, what really. Also where is the price?
22:46:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Individual price: £130.
22:46:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what, not more?
22:46:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Package price: £50.
22:47:06 <elliott> Considering that new games are like £35 :P
22:47:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it shows it in Euro here
22:47:54 <Vorpal> elliott, that explains why the numbers didn't match
22:48:25 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway portal isn't stem is it?
22:48:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean it predates stem iirc
22:48:50 <elliott> Steam came out in 2003, dude :P
22:49:05 <elliott> The Orange Box was released both via retail and also Steam.
22:49:14 <elliott> OK, Steam sucks, but that price is pretty good.
22:49:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well my copy of portal is standalone as far as I can tell
22:55:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: If it's on the PC, it isn't.
22:56:05 <pikhq> Erm. Well, you may have purchsed just Portal, but Steam is part of the package.
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23:06:27 <Ilari> Heh... Reportedly some beta versionw of Windows XP had no way to turn off IPv6 (sadly, the final versions do).
23:27:59 <Sgeo> The Nimrod guy is just ignoring any thoughts on concurrency
23:28:10 <Sgeo> "I can't think of any real problem they solve, they just pretend their are no problems :P"
23:28:18 <Sgeo> "and if I don't need shared state, I will use OS processes :P"
23:28:26 <elliott> Sgeo: Who is "the Nimrod guy".
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23:43:42 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Erm. Well, you may have purchsed just Portal, but Steam is part of the package. <-- now we shouldn't use world like "purchsed". I got it from a friend who didn't like the game. it is just wine on the .exe. Works.
23:44:08 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:45:21 <oerjan> indeed we shouldn't use world like "purchsed", ever.
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23:48:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ah, so you obtained a de-Steamed version.
23:49:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which probably doesn't have the latest update...
23:49:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: Granted, it's only a minor Portal 2 tie-in, but hey.
23:50:00 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:50:17 <pikhq> "Today's IANA depletion date estimate: 2011-01-19"
23:50:20 <pikhq> What's holding up APNIC?
23:50:35 <pikhq> They're at 1.78 /8s now.
23:50:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, I didn't really like the game
23:51:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, sure it was innovative. But I don't like the first-person format
23:51:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, and also well it gets a bit boring in the long run.
23:51:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, need to vary more especially the mid testing levels
23:51:34 <pikhq> It's maybe 10 hours!
23:51:38 -!- aloril_ has joined.
23:51:44 <pikhq> No, wait, that's too long.
23:51:56 <elliott> monkey island 1 is supposedly 30 hours :D
23:51:59 <Vorpal> lol: can't connect to google.com
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23:52:04 <Sgeo> "and IMHO the problems with locks are vastly exaggerated"
23:52:27 <pikhq> On the other hand, many people actually spend like 80 hours just to finish Final Fantasy games...
23:52:37 <pikhq> So I do have to account for people sucking ass.
23:52:45 <Vorpal> I'm likely to time out during the night. Can't hard-reset it. Since someone is sleeping in that room.
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23:53:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, didn't take 10 hours. Most of Portal is straight forward
23:53:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is another issue. It needs to be harder to figure out what to do to be fun.
23:53:39 <elliott> Sgeo: Locks aren't actually all that bad at all. :p
23:53:49 <Vorpal> I mean, there was a handful of places where it was hard
23:53:51 <elliott> Lock-free data structures are very, very tricky.
23:53:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: I suspect you'd like the sequel, then.
23:54:01 <elliott> And I don't think there's one known for every data structure.
23:54:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, doubt it would run on my computer
23:54:17 <pikhq> Which is basically making Portal into a fully fleshed out game, instead of basically a short, experimental pack-in.
23:54:37 <Vorpal> <elliott> And I don't think there's one known for every data structure. <-- isn't it known that you can do lock free in general but overhead might be huge?
23:54:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's still a Source engine game.
23:54:48 <Sgeo> I was thinking of lock-based concurrency as evil
23:54:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably, but that doesn't mean that concrete examples are known.
23:54:52 <pikhq> A 10 year old computer will run it fine.
23:55:03 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, that is because you are prone to misconceptions based primarily on what seems cool and hip in programming.
23:55:10 <Vorpal> elliott, actually many concrete examples are known with DCAS (see synthesis!)
23:55:16 <elliott> Sure, it'd be nice if all the world was lock-free.
23:55:19 <Vorpal> elliott, but plain old CAS sucks
23:55:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, well, x86 doesn't have DCAS :P
23:55:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it sucks. So does most other platforms
23:55:41 <elliott> Vorpal: But you could do it at the high-level language level couldn't you?
23:55:47 <pikhq> elliott: What you really want is software transactional memory, anyways.
23:55:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well that would be with locks then
23:55:57 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not convinced STM is the right thing.
23:56:06 <elliott> I haven't seen it put into wide-scale practice yet.
23:56:17 <pikhq> elliott: If it's not The Right Thing, it is certainly closer than anything else I know of.
23:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, what you really want is wait free structures!
23:56:32 <elliott> pikhq: It may be the Right Thing, but does it /work/?
23:56:35 <elliott> OK, where can I stick a 54 meg file.
23:57:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
23:57:08 <pikhq> elliott: Hard to say without people writing significant code in it.
23:57:29 <pikhq> Which is definitely something going for the actor model: it definitely works.
23:57:32 <Ilari> Heh... Now there are rumors using "inside information" (well, it isn't hard to see even without inside information) that allocations happen this week...
23:57:43 <elliott> [[No results found for "colostomy bag of a programmer".]] Google, you are not indexing my reddit comments well enough.
23:57:47 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:58:00 <pikhq> (what with telecom companies running stuff on Erlang)
23:58:15 <pikhq> Ilari: That's pretty funny.
23:58:50 <pikhq> Ilari: You don't need inside information to see that if APNIC *doesn't* allocate soon they'll actually run out of addresses before depletion. :P
23:58:55 <elliott> Vorpal: pikhq: Will you settle for access via scp?
23:59:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that. Will take forever
23:59:09 <pikhq> elliott: You know you want Bittorrent.
23:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott, bittorrent would be good
23:59:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, fine. I'll serve it ... via NETCAT.
23:59:30 <Vorpal> elliott, MAGNET ONLY TORRENT!
23:59:33 <elliott> But only if both of you download it to speed things up.
23:59:34 <Vorpal> elliott, YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!
23:59:44 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure I'll download it
23:59:54 <Vorpal> elliott, can't answer for the stability of my connection atm
00:00:06 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems like it decided to take a vacation
00:00:53 <elliott> pikhq: Vorpal: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:3ddc0ff171950d3ad4f3e9c4c265b87f153803c3&dn=foo.avi
00:01:15 <elliott> Suggest that you download Ubuntu 10.10 32-bit normal installer CD so we find each other.
00:01:31 <elliott> http://releases.ubuntu.com/maverick/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso.torrent
00:01:47 -!- olsner has joined.
00:02:45 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, more than half on that torrent use ipv6!
00:02:56 <Vorpal> well more than half in my list
00:02:58 <elliott> Vorpal: You did add that magnet link right? :P
00:03:04 <Ilari> Doesn't most clients also have "peer with this IP" functionality?
00:03:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the other one
00:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, ................................
00:03:35 <elliott> tell transmission to use the open port
00:04:07 <Vorpal> elliott, tell me when to start magnet again
00:07:28 <Vorpal> elliott, no luck so far
00:07:45 <elliott> Fuck this, I'm going to distribute it via netcat.
00:08:01 <pikhq> Just give it a tracker...
00:08:51 <Vorpal> elliott, just give me an IP to manually add as peer
00:09:13 * pikhq doesn't think Transmission can do that.
00:09:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, and I my ports done properly
00:09:41 <pikhq> Maybe Vorpal getting in on it will get me onto the tiny swarm.
00:10:28 <Vorpal> elliott, don't see you in the list?
00:10:39 <elliott> What list are you talking about?
00:10:47 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the list I need to add you in
00:10:52 <Vorpal> elliott, the ubuntu one
00:10:58 <Vorpal> elliott, can't add to a non-torrent
00:10:58 <elliott> Oh... why not add me in the foo.avi one
00:11:07 <Vorpal> elliott, because it is still magnet only
00:11:25 <Vorpal> elliott, it hasn't even found the data for the magnet yet!
00:11:32 <elliott> OK, re-added myself to Ubuntu.
00:12:06 <elliott> HTML5 has been renamed ... to HTML. /Now/ I'm confused.
00:12:23 <elliott> Ah: "In 2009 we announced that the HTML5 specification at the WHATWG was progressing to Last Call. The plan at the time was to finish the specification this year and publish a snapshot of "HTML5" in 2012. However, shortly after that we realised that the demand for new features in HTML remained high, and so we would have to continue maintaining HTML and adding features to it before we could call "HTML5" complete, and as a result we moved to a new
00:12:23 <elliott> development model, where the technology is not versioned and instead we just have a living document that defines the technology as it evolves."
00:12:27 * pikhq suspects that elliott doesn't have DHT working right.
00:12:44 <elliott> pikhq: My ports're forwarded.
00:12:54 <pikhq> Wait, CAN HAS CONNECTION TO ELLIOTT.
00:13:07 <elliott> Then I can cancel the Ubuntu torrent.
00:13:14 <elliott> Vorpal: LOOK AT PIKHQ AND SHARE IN HIS CONNECTION
00:13:22 <Vorpal> elliott, can I get his IP then?
00:13:45 <elliott> Port is presumably default.
00:13:52 <pikhq> 174.22.146.230, port 51413.
00:14:16 <Vorpal> well sooner or later it will work
00:14:58 * pikhq goes back on the Ubuntu swarm. Try now.
00:15:05 <Ilari> What's that foo.avi about?
00:15:20 <elliott> Ilari: It's a video of me failing at exploding lots of TNT in Minecraft badly :P
00:15:44 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> well sooner or later it will work
00:15:47 <elliott> But then I go underwater and let myself lose all my air and yet still suffer no damage thanks to my hacked armour, and that is the dramatic scene on which the video ends.
00:15:56 <olsner> anything referred to only as <filename>.avi always sounds like a relative to swap.avi
00:15:58 <pikhq> Even adding me as a peer?
00:16:09 <olsner> (not a good association fwiw)
00:16:15 <elliott> olsner: why weren't you around when SWAP.avi was relevant so I wasn't now known as THAT SCAT GUY???
00:16:39 <elliott> But oklopol was discussing scat porn.
00:17:00 <olsner> not even I managed to watch all of swap.avi
00:17:01 <pikhq> Well fuck it, then. Off the Ubuntu swarm, and let's see if Vorpal gets to peer.
00:17:42 <elliott> Vorpal: do you want the .torrent
00:17:44 <elliott> that would be more practical
00:18:05 <elliott> how do I export a torrent file from transmission...
00:18:15 <Vorpal> elliott, don't know. Easy from kTorrent of course :P
00:18:41 <elliott> pikhq: u disconnected y u hate me so much
00:18:52 <Vorpal> elliott, sure I get you don't like the cluttered feature-ladden kTorrent but still
00:18:54 <pikhq> elliott: Did you create it with the "new torrent" thing? If so, you saved it somewhere.
00:19:08 <elliott> pikhq: I DID but i don't know where
00:19:16 <elliott> let's try dcc, dcc is like
00:19:19 <elliott> i'm going to dcc you a torrent file
00:19:24 <Vorpal> elliott, uh firewall not set up for that here
00:19:33 <elliott> you get it uuencoded then, is that ok?
00:19:37 <Vorpal> elliott, and my modem seems broken atm
00:19:41 <Vorpal> elliott, sure. Or yencode
00:19:58 <Vorpal> elliott, on what gorunds?
00:20:13 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.faerber.muc.de/temp/20020304-yenc-harmful.html
00:20:52 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/yenc.html
00:21:10 <Gregor> I have now gotten two bursar notices in a row telling me "Amount Due --- [ $0.00 ]"
00:21:31 <elliott> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/SSRi
00:22:29 <Vorpal> elliott, or maybe. I haven't got it yet
00:22:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what about base64
00:22:42 <elliott> so i bet you are downloading it
00:22:48 <Vorpal> elliott, oh then it might be getting magnet from you
00:23:03 <Vorpal> elliott, because I haven't yet got the damn thing
00:23:45 <elliott> I'm giving foo.avi to some random guy.
00:23:49 <Vorpal> elliott, SO CAN I GET IT AS base64
00:23:52 <elliott> Sorry for revealing your icky IPv4 IP.
00:23:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I CAN'T FIND UUDECODE!
00:24:12 <elliott> Ilari: I forgot I linked it in here :P
00:24:18 <Ilari> Well, you can get if you know how to decode the IP address in hostmask...
00:24:36 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:24:40 <elliott> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/FTjZ
00:25:52 <elliott> Ilari: Interestingly your connection to me isn't encrypted ... and also pikhq is getting a lot more data than you are.
00:26:00 <elliott> Oh, I think uTorrent is set to prefer encrypted peers.
00:26:10 <pikhq> elliott: I'm uploading a lot to Ilari.
00:26:20 <elliott> Ah, I won't bother trying to fix it then :P
00:27:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, had to add ips manually
00:27:14 <Ilari> Might have something to do with the fact that I have UDP parts (e.s.p. PEX) disabled because they use too much bandwidth...
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00:28:03 <pikhq> Ilari: You disabled peer exchange?
00:28:05 <elliott> Ilari: That is, er, unlikely to help :-D
00:28:31 <elliott> Isn't it "esp."? Unless you mean "extra superlative penguins".
00:28:37 <pikhq> elliott: Transport protocol over UDP that some torrent clients implement.
00:28:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is more friendly to other internet traffic iirc
00:29:02 <Vorpal> as in, rate limiting and such
00:29:14 <Ilari> I have 1596 active torrents at the moment. PEX traffic for them would be huge.
00:29:34 <elliott> I physically cannot imagine downloading that many torrents.
00:29:36 <pikhq> Ilari: I think that's the least of your problems.
00:29:57 <Ilari> elliott: All (1596)
00:30:13 <elliott> Maybe if you're a gigantic porn addict and need a huge buffer because you have a ridiculously slow internet connection, 1596 torrents would be possible...
00:30:16 <Vorpal> idea: google to index torrents
00:30:35 <Ilari> (and no, those videos aren't porn)
00:30:38 <elliott> Vorpal: They already do. Kinda. In that they index tracker sites.
00:30:55 <elliott> Ilari: Then I have absolutely no idea :P
00:31:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah I meant more directly. Like google image search, google whatever search and so on
00:31:51 <Vorpal> hm I'm uploading way more than I'm downloading from each of pikhq and Ilari
00:32:08 <Ilari> Heh... If one uses torrent queueing, one can't have upload limit larger than 999 in this client...
00:32:12 <Vorpal> I mean, 12 vs. 46 kBps to you Ilari
00:32:31 <Vorpal> Ilari, you need to devote more bw to this
00:33:37 <pikhq> Ilari: Also, you realise that peer exchange is actually designed to be really low bandwidth, right?
00:34:11 <Ilari> Oh, and the amount of video in that that torrent collection is something like 685 hours...
00:34:17 <pikhq> Ilari: There can be no more than 50 added peers and 50 removed peers in a given PEX message, and PEX messages won't be sent more frequently than once a minute.
00:34:55 <Ilari> In packet traces, I saw things like 50+ UDP messages associated with Bittorrent PER SECOND.
00:35:03 <elliott> Ilari: How did you come to be downloading 1500 torrents at once...
00:35:42 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe he is seeding some?
00:35:55 <Ilari> Yeah, 1595 of those are being seeded.
00:36:19 <pikhq> Ilari: Oooooh, kilobit per second.
00:36:29 <Vorpal> elliott, you bandwidth. It sucks.
00:36:32 <pikhq> Ilari: Anyways, your client is braindamaged, apparently.
00:36:43 <elliott> My bandwidth is doing other things too, and also prioritising pikhq massively
00:36:51 <elliott> Oh wait pikhq is gone now.
00:36:59 <elliott> Well enjoy your bandwidth, bastard.
00:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is done now
00:37:22 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the most exciting video you'll watch all year.
00:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, however you must have been prioritising Ilari?
00:37:32 <Ilari> I once shut down the torrent client. Kernel was sending tens of kilobytes of second worth of ICMP unreachables for the UDP traffic (and that continued tens of minutes)...
00:37:32 <elliott> Ilari got almost no pipe :P
00:37:41 <elliott> Ilari: TENS of KILOBYTES? :P
00:37:58 <Vorpal> elliott, no sound AT ALL?
00:38:10 <elliott> My MC is, as I said, stuck in mute, and I couldn't get microphone recording working.
00:38:24 <elliott> Otherwise you'd hear my expressing JUST HOW GIGANTIC THIS CUBE OF TNT IS
00:38:24 <olsner> TENS OF KILOBYTES? that's like FIFTHS OF KILOWORDS
00:38:35 <Vorpal> elliott, issue I think is that not all the chunks can be loaded at once here
00:38:40 <olsner> or *a couple* of kilowords
00:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Irrelevant, it doesn't even do anything in one chunk :P
00:38:54 <Vorpal> <elliott> My MC is, as I said, stuck in mute, and I couldn't get microphone recording working. <-- how is it stuck
00:39:05 <elliott> When I turn the volume up it crashes because of Notch quality engineering.
00:39:15 <Ilari> 50+ bittorrent PEX messages per second use a lot of bandwidth...
00:39:28 <elliott> pikhq: ARE YOU WATCHINGT OO
00:40:42 <nooga> someone should really reimplement this nice game
00:40:57 <elliott> They have, and the reimplementations suck
00:41:09 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, I never saw you using that editor in the video. What happened there?
00:41:12 <elliott> We're too used to the game's mouth feel by now :P
00:41:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I cut off the video while I did the editing.
00:41:24 <elliott> It's when I switched to the terminal and suddenly tons of messages appeared in IRC :P
00:41:36 <elliott> It's boring enough without /that/ bit of tedium.
00:41:57 <pikhq> elliott: Dude, primed TNT succumbs to gravity.
00:42:22 <Ilari> How many blocks of TNT is there????
00:42:27 <elliott> But pikhq's point is very good.
00:42:32 <elliott> NEVERTHELESS, the game crashes just working out gravity, it seems.
00:42:39 <elliott> Ilari: 5.5 million or so IIRC
00:43:24 <elliott> pikhq: I feel kinda stupid now X-D ... but still, it crashed all the same later on.
00:43:30 -!- amca has quit (Excess Flood).
00:43:32 <elliott> So I wouldn't have been able to get anything interesting even if I had solidified the ground.
00:44:07 -!- amca has joined.
00:44:12 <elliott> pikhq: SO HAVE YOU BOUGHT THE GAME YET
00:44:20 <pikhq> elliott: NO EXPENDABLE INCOME YET
00:44:34 <Vorpal> elliott, hah it fell in the water first XD
00:44:39 <elliott> Vorpal: I'M NOT CLEVER OKAY
00:45:01 <elliott> In retrospect, the first half of the video is hilariously stupid :P
00:45:15 <Vorpal> `addquote <elliott> Vorpal: I'M NOT CLEVER OKAY
00:45:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that shelter is very wtf too
00:45:24 <HackEgo> 271) <elliott> Vorpal: I'M NOT CLEVER OKAY
00:45:30 <Vorpal> elliott, you protected the terrain behind you
00:45:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Did you see when I accidentally blocked it up and I looked up and down going "wut" :D
00:45:42 <elliott> and then extended it badly
00:47:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you ever watched a more exciting video?
00:48:02 <elliott> The bit where I look at the file size of the video I'm recording is nicely meta :P
00:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, .avi fails at seeking
00:49:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I needed to re-watch one
00:49:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it was so PRECIOUS
00:50:08 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I now know your mc password is 7 letters :P
00:50:22 <elliott> That's my password for everything, good thing MC doesn't use plaintext :P
00:50:40 <elliott> (I ought to use a password manager with a better master password...ought to...I will...sometime...I swear...probably...)
00:50:51 <elliott> Good thing I don't own or do anything of interest
00:50:54 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, should've muxed into mkv or something.
00:50:59 <elliott> pikhq: mencoder default :P
00:51:02 <pikhq> AVI has uber-overhead.
00:51:10 <elliott> Yah, it also has a blank MP3 audio track I think.
00:51:13 <pikhq> Just mkvmerge after the fact.
00:51:17 <Vorpal> elliott, what is with the mouse going in circles at some point?
00:51:27 <elliott> Vorpal: That's me making sure the video isn't BORING AND STILL.
00:51:50 <elliott> That part where it freezes near the end is where I switched to a vt to kill java :P
00:51:51 <Vorpal> elliott, next project: detonate in two minecraft instances at once
00:51:59 <elliott> Oh no wait, I didn't, it just crashed
00:52:22 <Vorpal> elliott, killall -9 java from a terminal window?
00:52:31 <elliott> Nope, I just waited until it ran out of heap space :P
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00:53:13 <elliott> The ending is super-dramatic.
00:53:40 <Vorpal> elliott, this will be fun. That constant notification window
00:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you think
00:54:14 <elliott> Vorpal: What are you talking about :P
00:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott, it pops up notification in corner
00:55:59 <pikhq> elliott: Like an electron!
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00:57:45 <Ilari> Probably not quite designed to explode 5 million cubic meters of dynamite at once...
01:00:15 <elliott> It wouldn't be at once, it'd be staggered :P
01:00:28 <elliott> In fact, I think that all the ones after the first would probably detonate underwater... or close to it at least.
01:02:25 <nooga> elliott: about passwords: almost every company i used to work for uses passwords in format <company name><year> for EVERYTHING
01:02:40 <Ilari> That amounts of dynamite would have explosive power in megaton range... :->
01:03:21 <nooga> probably one would get access in at leat 50% cases without even guessing
01:03:25 <elliott> Ilari: IT'S CLEARLY MARKED TNT
01:04:14 <nooga> are youguys talking about some video?
01:04:19 <nooga> with this tnt i mean
01:04:29 <elliott> get it from pikhq or Vorpal, i'm not seeding any more :P
01:04:38 <elliott> nooga: it's the most exciting video you will ever watch
01:05:01 <Ilari> But doesn't it look more like dynamite than TNT?
01:05:08 <Ilari> (aside from the markings)
01:05:59 <elliott> Ilari: And you make it out of gunpowder.
01:07:44 <olsner> http://www.quickmeme.com/Lame-Pun-Coon/
01:07:57 <olsner> too late must sleep :(
01:08:54 <Ilari> Approximate mass composition of TNT by element: 42% oxygen, 37% carbon, 19% nitrogen, 2% hydrogen. No sulfur in there.
01:09:00 <elliott> Ilari: you forgot dynamite!
01:09:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> get it from pikhq or Vorpal, i'm not seeding any more :P <-- I'm seeding to 1.0
01:09:23 <elliott> that raccoon is too cute :|
01:09:28 <elliott> Vorpal: what a good little torrenter!
01:09:31 <olsner> the puns are just puntastic too
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01:10:50 <olsner> at least I now have the complete collection of castle episodes, just in case I end up staying up a few more hours
01:11:39 <elliott> olsner: which is why you want to hear about sg yes?
01:12:18 <olsner> can't you put that in a paste or something so I don't have to hear all the yapping *about* talking about sg and can skip directly to the contents?
01:13:37 <elliott> olsner: oh i can tell you but only if you pledge FULL DEVOTED ATTENTION
01:15:11 <Ilari> And this one article says IANA has already allocated... That would mean they are currently writing out a press release (since I haven't seen any indication they have done so)?
01:19:02 <Ilari> Or then they do the usual thing with big news: Announce them Friday afternoon...
01:19:22 <Ilari> (banks always fail on Fridays)
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01:44:10 <elliott> http://twitter.com/angrydeveloper this is my favourite
01:44:32 <elliott> "(about the devs of a certain widely used piece of software) They are on my list with Rick Berman and that fuckwit who dreamt up javascript."
01:44:35 <elliott> offensive to both Sgeo and Gregor
01:45:47 <Gregor> When they guy's icon is trollface, I know to look elseward :P
01:46:20 <Ilari> javascript? More like javashit...
01:46:33 <elliott> Gregor: It's run by his cow-orkers, apparently.
01:46:38 <elliott> He doesn't know about it :P
01:46:51 <elliott> Ilari: Prepare for Gregor's wrath.
01:47:22 <Gregor> Why didn't Unicode 6 add a TROLL FACE character.
01:47:29 <Gregor> s/character/codepoint/
01:47:57 <elliott> Gregor: That is the best idea.
01:48:17 <Gregor> If they added friggin' LOVE HOTEL, they should have added TROLL FACE
01:48:33 <elliott> Gregor: They just imported emojis, didn't they?
01:48:42 <elliott> Remember, Unicode's primary method of growth is absorbing other encodings :P
01:49:07 <Gregor> elliott: Does that include GOAT and LOVE HOTEL? X-P
01:49:24 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, emoji = japs.
01:49:34 <elliott> Are you really surprised they have an icon for it? :P
01:49:49 <elliott> http://inner.geek.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/iphone-emoji1.png <-- find love hotel yourself
01:49:58 <elliott> Yep, in bottom-left somewhere
01:50:23 <elliott> Hundreds of Emoji characters were encoded in the Unicode Standard in version 6.0 released in October 2010 (and in the related international standard ISO/IEC 10646). The additions, originally requested by Google (Kat Momoi, Mark Davis, and Markus Scherer wrote the first draft for consideration by the Unicode Technical Committee in August 2007) and Apple Inc. (whose Yasuo Kida and Peter Edberg joined the first official UTC proposal for 607 characte
01:50:23 <elliott> rs as coauthors in January 2009), went through a long series of commenting by members of the Unicode Consortium and national standardization bodies of various countries participating in ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2, especially the United States, Germany, Ireland (led by Michael Everson), and Japan.
01:50:23 <elliott> It is hard to count the final number of actual emoji characters encoded in this specific update of the Unicode standard, because various characters were already encoded in previous versions, and lots of new characters (especially symbols for maps and European signs) were added during the consensus-building process. The new symbols were encoded in seven different blocks (some newly created), and there exists a Unicode data file called EmojiSources
01:50:27 <elliott> .txt[1] that includes mappings to and from the Japanese vendors' legacy character sets. It should be noted that some emoji characters were encoded (or were already encodable) as a sequence of Unicode characters, not single characters.
01:50:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, LOVE HOTEL is in the emoji block, and that is there soley for the sake of Japan.
01:53:46 <Gregor> How does one petition Unicode to add TROLL FACE ...
01:56:44 * pikhq pulls up the FCC's form for reporting an illegal telemarketing call to a cell phone.
01:56:47 <pikhq> Fucking local newspaper.
01:57:22 <elliott> I, Gregor Richards, Microsoft representative, demand you add TROLL FACE.
01:58:04 <elliott> Gregor: Propose it to http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/ instead.
01:58:08 <elliott> You might actually get it in :P
01:58:24 <elliott> Gregor: Include a bunch of other F7U12 icons too, so it counts as a "script"
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02:58:56 <plaidguy> I theoretically may be getting near a quantum computer this summer, and thus wanted to see if lament's quantum brainfuck interpreter still existed anywhere
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03:03:18 <pikhq> Holy fuck holy fuck holy *fuck* it's cold.
03:04:17 <Gregor> I exist only as an out-of-control cron job at Freenode.
03:04:29 <pikhq> According to http://weather.gov/, -9 °C (16 °F)
03:05:06 <pikhq> Wind chill of -18 °C (-1 °F).
03:06:57 <pikhq> Ilari: Hmm. Any news regarding IANA at all?
03:07:28 <pikhq> I mean, gaaah. Surely the final allocation should be happening any minute now.
03:09:21 <Ilari> At least address space registry hasn't been updated... And the counter at inetcore still shows 7 blocks...
03:20:50 <Sgeo> O'Brien Must Suffer!
03:41:19 <pikhq> Wow... "Final Fantasy Versus XIII". Anyone want to guess how much connection it has to Final Fantasy XIII?
03:42:26 <pikhq> Unless you guessed "none at all", you're very wrong.
03:44:13 <Sgeo> What if I didn't bother to guess?
03:44:30 <pikhq> Then you're neither right nor wrong.
03:44:57 <plaidguy> pikhq: yay the game that only exists in trailers!
03:48:31 <pikhq> plaidguy: Am I allowed to look forward to a game being done by a group of people that actually *make good games*?
03:49:14 <plaidguy> pikhq: I'd say yes if I wasn't 8 hours and 1/2 through FF13
03:49:50 <pikhq> plaidguy: FFvsXIII is coming courtesy of basically everyone that brought you Kingdom Hearts.
03:50:08 <pikhq> plaidguy: Rather than the abortion that is FFXIII, brought to you by the people who brought you FFX-2.
03:52:49 <plaidguy> pikhq: it's the reason I got the ps3
03:53:01 <plaidguy> when I heard that it was exclusive
03:53:06 <pikhq> plaidguy: You... Got a PS3 for FFXIII? You poor soul.
03:53:51 <plaidguy> the later being far superior to prototype
03:54:12 <plaidguy> though I'm just waiting for Deus Ex 3 at this point
03:54:37 * pikhq is looking forward to Catherine (by Atlus)...
03:55:34 <pikhq> What, I like Atlus.
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03:56:37 <plaidguy> it sounds like japanified amnesia >_>
03:57:47 <pikhq> That's certainly an *odd* complaint.
03:58:49 <plaidguy> but the erotic bit doesn't really help the game
03:59:55 <pikhq> I'm pretty confident they'll not fuck it up. But you never know, they could actually make a bad game...
04:00:45 <plaidguy> I'm too cynical about the industry
04:04:11 <pikhq> Anyways, even if it is a total stinker the sound track will almost certainly be worth it.
04:13:09 -!- Gregor has set topic: PACHELBEL-FLAVORED WEETABIX SUCK | logs: http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ (formatted); http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D (unformatted).
04:14:18 <pikhq> Gregor: All flavors of Weetabix suck.
04:14:41 <Gregor> Yeah, but this one tastes like a corpse that was exhumed in secret for the dubious reason of flavoring a breakfast food.
04:15:27 <pikhq> Okay, true, that would suck more than most.
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04:44:34 <Sgeo> Protip: Do not follow the Ioke/Seph guy on Twitter
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05:31:22 * Sgeo relearns of Fancy
05:31:27 <Sgeo> Maybe it's not as boring as I imagined
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06:45:46 <pikhq> So, I've got my Rockbox'd MP3 player plugged into my computer right now.
06:46:19 <pikhq> As it turns out, doing that makes it actually act as a USB multimedia keypad.
06:46:31 <pikhq> I'm using my MP3 player to control Quod Libet.
07:29:04 <myndzi\> hot damn, didn't know that
07:29:13 <myndzi\> what version of rockbox though?
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07:29:28 <myndzi> i rolled mine back because of some annoying bugs in the last stable release i tried
07:29:52 <myndzi> also i really wish one-click queue/insert would make it into the main release
07:37:41 <pikhq> May have worked in the previous as well.
07:37:52 <pikhq> I just noticed by accident.
07:38:05 <pikhq> (hit "pause" on the thing by accident, and went "WTF!")
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08:05:20 <Sgeo> There are people who have trouble with Scala's co and contravariance?
08:05:31 <Sgeo> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2808
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08:32:07 <Ilari> Oh, there are 1598 now... :-)
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08:48:27 <pikhq> "Today's IANA depletion estimate: yesterday."
08:48:50 <pikhq> Yeah, they could very well be holding out until Friday to announce.
08:55:31 <Ilari> Houston estimate is February 2nd...
08:55:57 <Ilari> But I doubt that is just allocation processing delay...
08:58:32 <pikhq> What, waiting for 1 /8 left or something?
09:00:20 <Ilari> I think the request for address space is already sent (I do not know when or how long it usually takes to process) and is now stuck in IANA for some reason...
09:01:36 <pikhq> If it's stuck in IANA, then almost certainly for the sake of PR.
09:02:08 <Ilari> APNIC pool seems to be the the second of all RIR pools (second to only AfriNIC)...
09:02:58 <pikhq> "Second" by what sorting metric?
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09:09:47 <Ilari> Which is bit scary, as APNIC is way more active in distributing space than any other RIR (in fact, it is about as active as the rest _combined_).
09:13:27 <Ilari> Listned some talks about IPv6. In one panel Arin CEO remarked that we don
09:13:58 <Ilari> Listned some talks about IPv6. In one panel Arin CEO remarked that we don't want IPv6 depletion (in something like 100 years time) and thus the allocation policies should be sane...
09:16:27 <Ilari> Oh and that relative share of allocations (~50%) is growing...
09:17:53 <Ilari> (well, likely at least until APNIC declares depletion phase 3, at IANA depletion + 1x/8 remaining).
09:19:40 <Ilari> Oh, and another problem of IPv4 depletion: Routing table growth.
09:21:00 <pikhq> Yeah, the routing table is pretty snarly as-is, and will probably only get worse if there's any notable IPv4 address market.
09:21:58 <Ilari> In those talks someone said something like that IPv4 DFZ is about 300k entries now, and could grow to about 3M entries...
09:23:07 <Ilari> Which basically needs the beefiest routers available...
09:29:42 <fizzie> Oh, it's already at 300k? It was something like 100k not long (ie. a decade?) ago.
09:38:21 <Ilari> And with stuff like that, there apparently are some that want to kill off IPv4...
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09:41:38 <Ilari> Hurr... RIPE has also allocated some IPv4 /29s(!).
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09:43:26 <Ilari> That's like 6 usable addresses...
09:47:24 <Ilari> (but good luck getting them routed, unless you are a Very Important Customer).
09:54:48 <Ilari> Ways to make IPv4 seem bad: Underprovision the GCN boxes...
09:56:53 <Ilari> Oh, and screw up geolocation for GCN boxes also works...
09:59:29 <Ilari> There are companies that care VERY much about the latency/speed of their sites to the end user.
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10:10:43 <Ilari> There currently seems to be something like 110k IPv4 allocations/delegations (for IPv6, roughly 7k).
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10:48:41 <cheater00> why are we talking about something as boring as ip
10:48:54 <cheater00> has this channel really gone to hell?
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11:54:10 <Ilari> Well, IP is the basis of the Internet...
11:54:59 <fizzie> The Internet, how boring. What's that good for, anyway?
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15:10:54 <elliott> 03:04:00 <plaidguy> newcomer
15:10:54 <elliott> 03:04:05 <plaidguy> name's josh
15:10:54 <elliott> 03:05:04 <plaidguy> I theoretically may be getting near a quantum computer this summer, and thus wanted to see if lament's quantum brainfuck interpreter still existed anywhere
15:11:02 <elliott> maybe he's going to work at d-wave
15:13:25 <elliott> 04:50:45 <Sgeo> Protip: Do not follow the Ioke/Seph guy on Twitter
15:13:30 <elliott> Sgeo: What's wrong with Ola Bini
15:13:45 <elliott> I KNEW HE EXISTED BEFORE HE WAS IOKE FAMOUS ZOMGGGGGGGGGGGGG i'm so hipster
15:15:53 <elliott> 10:55:04 <cheater00> why are we talking about something as boring as ip
15:15:53 <elliott> 10:55:16 <cheater00> has this channel really gone to hell?
15:16:11 <elliott> at this point in time it might be worth considering that _you're_ the boring guy who never talks about anything interesting, not us
15:19:42 <Tritonio> about the brainfuck bugs game: should the "api" to control the bug contain certain cells on the tape or just the i/o commands?
15:20:31 <Tritonio> so in most cases two outputs should be written for the bug to do something
15:20:47 <elliott> Tritonio: I'd prefer a modified language than overloading IO.
15:21:11 <Tritonio> really? a supetset of brainfuck?
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15:21:22 <elliott> Remove the IO commands, add a couple of commands for your game.
15:21:25 <elliott> (Although note that commands that look at anything other than the value of the current cell are bad BF.)
15:21:41 <elliott> (e.g., a command shouldn't look at "current cell and one to the right"... so it might be a pain to keep the language BFy)
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15:22:05 <elliott> Oh, that was just a random number.
15:22:12 <Tritonio> something like output:move followed by output:west
15:22:22 <elliott> Tritonio: Instead, have "nesw" instructions.
15:22:41 <elliott> Much more elegant (and also you don't have the problem of "but what about output that doesn't fit one of the commands?" and the like)
15:22:54 <elliott> Anyway removing IO and adding commands is the approach of FukYorBrane, the premier CoreWars clone for brainfuck (indeed, the only one :P)
15:23:01 <Tritonio> i was thinking about a m(ove) command that moves to the direction that the current cell points too...
15:23:02 <quintopia> and just havd turn left and turn right
15:23:40 <elliott> Tritonio: Erm, what direction is 124?
15:23:45 <Tritonio> ok then... a few more commands that is...
15:23:52 <quintopia> although i think i like elliott's plan slightly better
15:23:54 <elliott> Tritonio: brainfuck programs shouldn't have any runtime errors
15:24:05 <elliott> that's like having , error out on EOF :)
15:24:09 <Tritonio> no error. it will be silently ignores.
15:24:19 <quintopia> because it shouldn't take different amounts of work to turn different directions
15:24:29 <elliott> hmmm... I'd still prefer nesw :P especially as you have to do a conditional to change direction according to an algorithm
15:24:32 <elliott> quintopia: oh, that's a very good point
15:24:37 <elliott> since presumably the BF programs will be cycle-locked to each other
15:24:41 <quintopia> how about (t)urn that turns left on 0 and right on 1
15:25:15 <Tritonio> quintopia: elliott's approach will make it harder to keep a steady direction based on some factor. my way you can use the move command after you have finished the making of the direction decision.
15:25:41 <Tritonio> the turn command would be nice too
15:26:02 <elliott> * because it looks like a bunch of directional arrows if you zoom in
15:26:16 <elliott> ** makes you face backwards from where you were
15:26:37 <elliott> quintopia: make turn always go right?
15:26:50 <fizzie> Or you could do lrfb, for left/right/forward/back, all Logo-like.
15:27:05 <elliott> fizzie: Letters are for comments :P
15:27:29 <fizzie> In that case, {}^ and, uh, _.
15:27:35 <Tritonio> wait wait wait. the main question is: do we want the commands to take the current cell as an argument?
15:27:43 <quintopia> elliott: then it would take 3 times as long to turn left. which is dumb
15:28:01 <elliott> Tritonio: I don't think so
15:28:09 <elliott> since [ handles basically all you'd need for that
15:28:22 <elliott> quintopia: OK, \ for counterclockwise and / for clockwise (imagine arrowheads on the end) and ^ for forward
15:28:28 <elliott> / or \\ make you face the opposite way
15:28:34 <elliott> { for counter, } for clockwise
15:28:48 <Tritonio> if they don't take an argument you will have to write code which is full of "if"s
15:28:59 <fizzie> Or use ←→↑↓; Unicode's trendy. For turning you could even go for ↺↻ or ↰↱ or something.
15:29:53 <Tritonio> I like the turning thing with \ and /
15:30:12 <fizzie> I'd like to see ↯⇌⇈⇄⇶↜↩↫ as valid code in something.
15:30:18 <elliott> \ and / are ugly for sequences
15:30:35 <elliott> <Tritonio> if they don't take an argument you will have to write code which is full of "if"s
15:30:42 <elliott> It's always going to be tedious
15:30:54 <Tritonio> ok i need more commands now: birth, eat.
15:31:23 <Tritonio> like dividing an organism in two. :-P
15:32:31 <fizzie> Good old APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL GREATER-THAN DIAERESIS for eating: ⍩ -- it's like pac-man without the circular outline.
15:32:54 <elliott> It looks like a > with an umlaut on top.
15:32:57 <fizzie> Font issues, I guess. It's the price you pay.
15:33:00 <elliott> In fact that /is/ what it is.
15:33:17 <elliott> < would be better, as the traditional orientation of Pacman.
15:33:38 <fizzie> Written as >̈ (with a combining char) -- well, <̈ in that case -- might be more compatible.
15:35:21 <elliott> What does brainfork use? :P
15:36:38 <Tritonio> and what about input commands? I had a read command
15:36:45 <elliott> Tritonio: where does the input come from?
15:37:02 <Tritonio> it may contain enemies, friends or food.
15:37:16 <Tritonio> we need an attack symbol too...
15:37:24 <elliott> Tritonio: can't you unify input/attack?
15:37:53 <Tritonio> so you actually think about having one heading? because currently i was writting it in a way that it has two headings: one for the movement and one for reading the enviroment.
15:38:15 <Tritonio> elliott: you mean if there is an enemy automatically attack it?
15:38:31 <elliott> Tritonio: well, i mean, the same instruction would be used for eating food as attacking enemies
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15:39:39 <Tritonio> hmmm... unless they have a different effect on the bug.
15:40:08 <Tritonio> also the read commands whould give you a way to check your health and food.
15:42:17 <Tritonio> the move command would make sense for attacking too...
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15:44:57 <Tritonio> also the move/attack command could return what stands in front of you after moving.
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16:29:35 <Ilari> Now APNIC graph shows 1.67x/8...
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16:39:41 <j-invariant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Z0raWIHXk
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16:50:48 <nooga> http://ooc-lang.org/
16:53:14 <nooga> i think i could leave C++ for good
16:53:29 <nooga> in some rare cases
16:53:41 <nooga> but then i code like in C using basic OO and exceptions
16:54:00 <nooga> and use pointers instead of object types and references
17:02:20 <Ilari> And no field/method pointers? :->
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17:20:03 <j-invariant> elliott: haha why did aynone upvote this http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/f5si6/sometimes_i_hate_being_a_cs_major/c1didnb?context=3
17:20:41 <elliott> i'm tempted to upvote that
17:28:15 <oerjan> it is true. you are all going to die.
17:28:28 <oerjan> and that kurzweil guy will be first
17:30:26 <elliott> i'd love it if kurzweil died the day before the singularity
17:30:37 <elliott> "finally succumbed to old age"
17:30:40 <elliott> "THIS JUST IN: old age abolished"
17:31:02 <elliott> yeah kurzweil is a bit coocoo
17:31:09 <j-invariant> all the pills he takes... I bet they just make you more ill
17:31:26 <elliott> I think they're probably doing very little
17:31:41 <elliott> He does have type II diabetes though
17:31:48 <elliott> so he's surprisingly healthy
17:32:05 <elliott> still, 250 supplements a day is pretty crazy
17:32:30 <elliott> wonder how long it takes him to take those and the 10 cups of green tea
17:33:16 <Ilari> 150 pills/capsules of supplements?
17:33:28 <elliott> Presumably one pill of 150 different types.
17:33:37 <elliott> Some elements of Kurzweil's lifestyle are conventional. He exercises frequently, does not eat to excess, and does not abuse recreational drugs. Many others, however, are controversial and may be explained by his obsession with living as long as possible. Kurzweil ingests "250 supplements, eight to 10 glasses of alkaline water and 10 cups of green tea" every day and drinks several glasses of red wine a week in an effort to "reprogram" his biochemi
17:33:37 <elliott> stry.[55] Lately, he has cut down the number of supplement pills to 150.[56]
17:33:47 <elliott> Although not supported by science,[57] Kurzweil and many others believe that consuming large amounts of water is necessary for flushing toxins out of the body, and that alkaline water allows the body to preserve important enzymes used for neutralizing acidic metabolic wastes. For this reason, Kurzweil abhors soft drinks and coffee, which are both acidic. Kurzweil believes that acidic drinks drain detoxifying enzyme reserves. Kurzweil has taken cr
17:33:48 <elliott> iticism from nutritionists and scientists for his advocacy of alkaline water's alleged health benefits and other unconventional beliefs, and he responded to this over the Internet.[58] Green tea and red wine contain antioxidants that neutralize free radicals. Kurzweil also consumes red wine because it contains the compound resveratrol, which may help to fight heart disease according to some evidence, but it is also a potentiator of breast carcino
17:33:48 <elliott> mas which may prove to out-weigh any suggested benefit.[59] Kurzweil also takes pills containing high concentrations of the chemical because the amount in red wine is extremely inconsistent.
17:34:00 <elliott> On weekends, Kurzweil also undergoes intravenous transfusions of chemical cocktails at a clinic which he believes will reprogram his biochemistry. He routinely measures the chemical composition of his own bodily fluids, undergoes preemptive medical tests for many diseases and disorders, and keeps detailed records about the content of all the meals he eats. On that last note, Kurzweil only eats organic foods with low glycemic loads and claims it h
17:34:01 <elliott> as been years since he last consumed anything containing sugar. Kurzweil considers foods rich in sugars and carbohydrates to be unhealthy since they spike the levels of glucose and insulin in the bloodstream, leading to health problems in the long term. He instead eats mainly vegetables, lean meats, tofu, and low glycemic load carbohydrates, and only uses extra virgin olive oil for cooking. Kurzweil also diligently eats foods rich with Omega-3 fa
17:34:08 <elliott> tty acids (including small, wild salmon).
17:35:14 <elliott> j-invariant: come and see my use my powers on MC, that's more productive
17:35:16 <elliott> i can mine any block instantly
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17:38:00 <oerjan> that alkaline water thing sounds rather weird; wouldn't it just cause the body to do more work in order to keep the level of stomach acid stable...
17:38:06 <elliott> http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/01/duckduckgo-google-privacy/ I didn't know DuckDuckGo was big enough to afford a billboard.
17:38:16 <elliott> j-invariant: you bought the game didn't you
17:39:07 <elliott> j-invariant: oh yeah that's not a real update
17:39:08 <j-invariant> this is going to destroy all that customization I did... isn't it
17:39:13 <elliott> he just rearranged the server or sth
17:39:19 <elliott> j-invariant: you did back it up right? like i told you to
17:39:21 <elliott> before applying the texture pack
17:39:28 <elliott> so all you'll have to do is copy the backup back, and reapply the texture pack
17:39:33 <j-invariant> elliott: the reason it said I am not a premium user is because I clicked "play offline"
17:39:44 <elliott> you did do that backup right :p
17:39:47 <j-invariant> because it wasn't connecting to the minecraft site
17:40:12 <j-invariant> lwjgl_util.jar minecraft.mrm2011-1-16-0.jar
17:40:12 <j-invariant> minecraft-1.2_01.jar minecraft.patched.up.the.wazoo.jar
17:40:23 <elliott> copy the wazoo one to minecraft.jar
17:40:27 <elliott> and then run the texture pack customiser again
17:40:38 <j-invariant> but shouldn't I just reapply the patches to the new update?
17:40:44 <elliott> j-invariant: there _is no update_
17:42:07 * elliott tries to connect to server repeatedly
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17:42:39 <j-invariant> http://zh-cn.astronomycamerasblog.com/wp-content/uploads-extra/Saturn-B_WILLEMS.gif
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18:00:30 <quintopia> would i be allowed to stay here if I stopped being a computer scientist?
18:01:32 <elliott> unless you became a pure mathematician
18:01:46 <Gregor> Or a xenopsychologist.
18:05:04 <elliott> computational neuropsychologist
18:05:44 <Gregor> computation nutritionist
18:08:12 <pikhq> Computational cable guy.
18:08:59 <elliott> Computologist Xenucable wifologuyist.
18:09:30 <pikhq> PRAISE BE TO XENU!
18:12:11 <Gregor> That was the worst branch merge in human history.
18:12:24 <Gregor> Why must they change every datatype in every revision X_X
18:12:53 <oerjan> computer psychologist sounds like someone who is just destined to be the first victim when the computer decides to take over the world
18:13:18 <elliott> Gregor: Lightweight; we mcmap developers have to handle a brand new way to do a variable-length field almost every protocol update because Notch isn't clever enough to add a length field to the packets.
18:13:18 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:13:26 <elliott> (Or *wants* to make unofficial clients have to go to great pains not to desync.)
18:14:46 <elliott> Gregor: Did I mention that for the past months there has been an x/z mixup in the map generator, generating retarded maps? Compare:
18:14:48 <elliott> http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5729/mineo.png
18:14:50 <elliott> http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7637/mineme.png
18:14:55 <elliott> What we're learning, kids, is that Notch is retarded.
18:15:08 <elliott> <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: All "yaw"-style variables keep accumulating rotational information -- it's never fmod(x, 360.0)'d -- so if you don't balance how often you turn left and right, you'll eventually (though not very fast) start to lose precision in your direction.
18:15:16 <Gregor> elliott: Heh, that does look pretty retardulous
18:15:24 <elliott> <fizzie> " * TAG_Float[0]: The entity's rotation clockwise around the Y axis (called yaw). Due west is 0. Can have large values because it accumulates all of the entity's lateral rotation throughout the game."
18:15:25 <elliott> <fizzie> It's even stored in the data file like that, so it's not per-session, it's per-world.
18:15:38 <elliott> Gregor: (That fixed image was generated by a mod; the official version still flips every fucking chunk.)
18:15:47 <pikhq> elliott: Waitwaitwait, *what*?
18:16:07 <pikhq> elliott: The random map generator has mixed up x and z?
18:16:09 <Gregor> So if you rotate too much, you'd better rotate back again or you'll overflow?
18:16:22 <elliott> pikhq: Yes. Get http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=146200 for a fix.
18:16:30 <elliott> pikhq: (Only affects newly-generated chunks, obviously.)
18:16:34 <elliott> pikhq: Well, not mixing up x and z.
18:16:38 <elliott> It's just that every single chunk is flipped.
18:16:38 <pikhq> That certainly explains the abstract nature of my maps.
18:16:44 <elliott> So all the smooth transitions... aren't.
18:16:55 <elliott> Gregor: Pretty much, yup :P
18:17:05 <elliott> Gregor: Well, floats don't really overflow...
18:17:09 <elliott> It'll just end up at infinity after a few years.
18:17:25 <Gregor> elliott: Well, you might be able to get to a point where accuracy suffers, although even that would take a while *shrugs*
18:17:46 <elliott> Gregor: Except it's per-game, so if you play a single world for a year while constantly turning left for some reason... :P
18:17:59 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, turning right is for pussies.
18:18:12 <elliott> When I need to turn right in MC, I just turn left a bunch.
18:19:41 <asiekierka> any ideas what crazy thing could I do today
18:22:48 <oerjan> <elliott> It'll just end up at infinity after a few years. <-- or you reach a point where turning more doesn't actually _change_ the value at all...
18:22:57 <elliott> oerjan: floating point has an infinity value
18:23:00 <elliott> so, yes, that's that point :P
18:23:06 <elliott> although i suppose it could have other "infinities"
18:23:14 <elliott> floating point saturates not overflows
18:23:29 <oerjan> elliott: um no i mean you could never actually reach infinity because you would reach a point where turning doesn't change the value long before
18:23:54 <elliott> i guess that is possible but i have not seen that happen in floating point
18:24:24 <oerjan> the largest exponent possible is much larger than the number of significant bits
18:24:51 <oerjan> > 1e200 + 360 == 1e200
18:25:37 <oerjan> an interesting question then is whether you could still diminish it by turning back the other way
18:25:52 <oerjan> might depend on the value
18:26:51 <elliott> @check (\(x::Float) -> x-1 /= x)
18:26:51 <lambdabot> Parse error in pattern at "->" (column 14)
18:27:00 <elliott> @check (\x -> x-1 /= x) :: Float -> Bool
18:27:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Float -> GHC.Bool.Bool'
18:27:05 <elliott> @check ((\x -> x-1 /= x) :: Float -> Bool)
18:27:17 <elliott> @check ((\x y -> y == 0 || x-y /= x) :: Float -> Bool)
18:27:31 <elliott> @check ((\x y -> y == 0 )|| (x-y /= x)) :: Float -> Float -> Bool)
18:27:33 <fizzie> On the usual 32-bit float, f + 1 == f when f is 16777216.
18:27:34 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: after a very long time
18:27:41 <oerjan> i suspect the quickcheck instances don't tend to create very large numbers
18:27:41 <elliott> @check ((\x y -> (y == 0)|| (x-y /= x)) :: Float -> Float -> Bool)
18:28:17 <lambdabot> "Arguments exhausted after 0 tests."
18:28:29 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 1 tests:\nFalse\n"
18:28:41 <fizzie> And 16777216 degrees is about 46600 full revolutions; at that point, increments smaller than 1 will not change the value. I guess the sort of increments it does depend on how fast you move the mouse and what your FPS is.
18:28:44 <elliott> Probably used () as little sense as that makes before
18:28:51 <oerjan> that's rather annoying without the actual information about which values it tried
18:29:04 <elliott> fizzie: I would imagine it being independent of _that_... but then, Notch.
18:30:26 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if it took delta-x of the mouse coordinates in two successive frames, then turn that into a float, apply some acceleration factor, then += that into the player yaw value.
18:30:45 <fizzie> Possibly depends on how lwjgl does input.
18:30:48 <elliott> fizzie: Do you think Notch can think at a low level like that? :P
18:33:18 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 2 tests:\n2.0\n"
18:34:00 <elliott> oerjan: the only reason that works is (1) the magical f,x,y,z stuff lambdabot has and (2) the fact that quickcheck works on "functions of any argument"
18:34:01 <oerjan> how come _that_ included the value... oh right when there are 0 tests there aren't actually any values used
18:34:27 <oerjan> elliott: yeah i remembered that when i realized i hadn't made a scope for x
18:35:22 <oerjan> i think the Ord instance may be something resembling lexicographic
18:35:38 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: in a very limited manner
18:35:54 <lambdabot> f 1 (f 2 (f 3 (f 4 (f 5 (f 6 (f 7 (f 8 (f 9 (f 10 (f 11 (f 12 (f 13 (f 14 (...
18:36:01 <elliott> that is the best worst thing ever
18:36:06 <elliott> i bet they just did deriving (Ord)
18:36:25 <fizzie> elliott: In my single-player world #1, my current rotation value is 4517 degrees, indicating that I've turned left more than right for about 12.5 full rotations.
18:36:30 <Sgeo> What are we not telling me?
18:36:53 <oerjan> it's probably just for Map ordering or the like
18:38:04 <Sgeo> I vaguely remember being somewhere between "bored" and "frusterated at unintuitive documentation navigation"
18:38:54 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll look at it again
18:39:10 <oerjan> @check \x -> x < 100.1
18:39:11 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 328 tests:\n113.53982300884955\n"
18:39:31 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 1 tests:\n-2\n"
18:39:36 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 1 tests:\n0.0\n"
18:39:39 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 3 tests:\n-1.3333333333333335\n"
18:39:41 <oerjan> @check \x -> x < 1000.0
18:39:47 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 1 tests:\n-1\n"
18:39:48 <oerjan> @check \x -> x < 300.0
18:39:52 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 8 tests:\n6.625\n"
18:39:55 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 491 tests:\n206.35064935064935\n"
18:39:55 <oerjan> @check \x -> x < 300.0
18:40:26 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 5 tests:\n3.5\n"
18:40:29 <oerjan> elliott: i somehow doubt it's entirely deterministic
18:40:32 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 440 tests:\n242.5\n"
18:40:35 <elliott> oerjan: DAMMIT YOU MADE ME LOSE
18:40:40 <elliott> STOP FLIPPING THE BITS BY TALKING
18:44:36 <Sgeo> I think I'm starting to like Scala again
18:45:11 <oerjan> elliott: this may be the beginning of a system of divination
18:45:25 <elliott> oerjan: what, @check or Sgeo
18:45:41 <oerjan> "When Sgeo likes Factor, expect monetary trouble."
18:46:35 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Scala?
18:46:42 <elliott> oerjan: aren't horoscopes meant to present a hope-giving and pleasing fiction, not a horrifying, despair-filled one?
18:46:55 <Sgeo> Despite it being pretty much the opposite of what I claimed I liked?
18:47:17 <oerjan> elliott: yes but this is the _sgeoscope_, sheesh
18:47:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Plenty is wrong with Scala, but that's not relevant; we don't hate the fact that you like awful languages, even though you often do; it isn't about the damn languages.
18:47:29 <elliott> It's about *you* (or rather *what you do constantly*)
18:48:16 <oerjan> "when Sgeo likes Plain English, hide in a nuclear shelter."
18:48:35 <Sgeo> oerjan, not going to happen
18:48:50 <oerjan> Sgeo: YAY, THE WORLD IS SAVED
18:49:06 <elliott> i kinda liked plain english :D
18:49:09 <elliott> like in a camp sort of way
18:52:48 <Sgeo> Where was the documentation again?
18:54:00 <oerjan> PLAIN ENGLISH IS ITS OWN DOCUMENTATION
18:54:11 <j-invariant> if you are interested in number theory http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-01/eu-nmt011911.php
18:55:09 <Sgeo> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html
18:55:31 <Sgeo> It's sad that one of the people arguing against Plain English is a moron
18:56:22 <elliott> Because the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
18:56:56 <elliott> "Uhm, wtf, how can it recompile itself? That's like...writing PHP5 in PHP5. Impossible." This has to be my favourite thing though.
18:57:04 <elliott> Especially how he specified that it only applied to PHP version 5.
18:57:07 <elliott> You can totally do that in PHP4.
18:57:23 <elliott> "GCC (C++ compiler) was written in C++" >_<
18:59:49 <elliott> "if (this.code == System.Types.Rubbish) {
19:00:29 <Sgeo> elliott, where's the Plain English download?
19:00:34 <Sgeo> The one on that page doesn't work?
19:00:59 <elliott> It's worth buying just for the hilarity.
19:01:25 <elliott> [[Regarding the "bootstrapping compiler" you mentioned, I'm afraid it is now lost in the annals of programming history. It was a Pascal-like language of our own design and was implemented using a very tiny subset of Borland's Delphi. We employed it briefly to produce the extremely minimal CAL-1000 (our first Plain English development system) and then immediately abandoned it. At that point we took the Osmosian Oath ("I promise never to program in
19:01:26 <elliott> any language but my own";) and used the CAL-1000 to develop the more robust CAL-1001, entirely in English. The CAL-1001, in turn, was used to produce the more capable CAL-1002, again in English, and so forth, all the way up to the fully functional CAL-3037, which we released as a commercial product. It's successor, the CAL-3040, is currently in testing.]]]
19:01:40 <elliott> [[But the really interesting work is about to begin as we enter Phase II of our project and use the the last of the CAL-series compilers to create the initial incarnation of our "apparently intelligent"(tm) machine, the PAL-1000.]]
19:02:57 <Gregor> Why must you force us to learn these things :P
19:03:06 <oerjan> at least there's a nice pun
19:03:19 <elliott> Gregor: Oh come on, we already researched Plain English extensively before.
19:03:34 <elliott> I think I concluded that a BF interpreter is probably _possible_ to write, but so unbelievably tedious as to be a mammoth project :P
19:04:05 <elliott> Sgeo: How did you get it anyway?
19:04:42 <Sgeo> Oh, I tried http instead of https iirc
19:05:13 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.osmosian.com/cal-3040.zip
19:05:16 <elliott> Sgeo: ENJOY NEWER COMPILER PRODUCT
19:05:42 <elliott> Gregor said one and so did I.
19:05:57 <hiato> elliott: oh, ofc. *facepalm*
19:06:03 <elliott> I really wonder what lexicon/lexicon is for, does it reject misspelled programs?
19:06:32 <elliott> "Let me put it this way. The CAL-3040 is the most advanced Plain English
19:06:32 <elliott> compiler ever made. No 3040 compiler has ever made a mistake or distorted
19:06:33 <elliott> information. We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof
19:06:40 <elliott> Unfortunately, we are also unusable.
19:06:56 <elliott> Sgeo: But be warned: "When you start me up, I will quickly take over your screen so you no longer
19:06:56 <elliott> have to look at that painted whore of an interface that comes with the kluge."
19:06:58 <Phantom__Hoover> http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/remyvoodoo/Screenshot2011-01-20at122039PM.png
19:07:01 <elliott> Note that the IDE interface is, er, quite hard to work.
19:07:36 <Sgeo> It's a full screen convention-breaking file browser!
19:07:50 <elliott> It doesn't break that many conventions :P
19:08:17 <elliott> Sgeo: But note that menus are organised alphabetically.
19:08:25 <elliott> So for instance you go to the N menu to make a new file or directory.
19:08:50 <elliott> It's the worst of both hierarchically-organised menus and completion-based commands.
19:09:39 <elliott> Sgeo: PS, for the best results, open instructions.pdf in the editor itself.
19:09:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Or, wait, open the non-pdf version.
19:09:53 <elliott> The PDF is just a rendering of it.
19:10:03 <Sgeo> "Pages can contain vector graphics, bitmapped pictures, and text. You can
19:10:03 <Sgeo> spell-check, print, enlarge, reduce; it's all there. But what's really swell is tha
19:10:03 <Sgeo> documents are stored as text. Go ahead. Force me to open one that way."
19:10:18 <Sgeo> Bitmapped pictures are stored as text?
19:10:18 <elliott> I don't see why that's so quotable
19:10:22 <Sgeo> Do I want to know?
19:10:30 <elliott> Presumably encoded... but there are no bitmaps in that.
19:10:36 <Gregor> So, it seems like Plain English is roughly ... ORK 2000.
19:11:03 <elliott> Gregor: It's actually quite impressive in that the compiler actually has inline asm generators and shit ... and ... it all actually works and bootstraps, despite the fact that you name variables with "the" followed by a type name.
19:11:12 <elliott> (OK, you can add extra descriptors, but it's still a pain.)
19:11:27 <elliott> So they're certainly very skilled Plain English programmers, it's just that Plain English is a terrible language :-P
19:11:41 <Sgeo> Ooh, it has a C FFI
19:12:26 <Gregor> That's would be very un-plain-English.
19:12:50 <Sgeo> To initialize com:
19:12:50 <Sgeo> Call "ole32.dll" "CoInitializeEx" with 0 and 2 [coinit_aparthreaded].
19:13:00 <elliott> Sgeo: That's just a DLL FFI :P
19:13:06 <Sgeo> I guess it's part of the sausage
19:13:19 <Gregor> Misread that function as coinit_apartheid.
19:14:46 <elliott> The manual is quite wonderfully psychotic:
19:14:50 <elliott> Was it as good for you as it was for me? Look how handsome he is! But he
19:14:50 <elliott> is not me — you can prove it with the Version command. And if you look in
19:14:50 <elliott> the new directory on an empty tab, you'll see the executable file we begat.
19:14:53 <elliott> You can quit the Baby Cal now, and — assuming you believe that a creator
19:14:55 <elliott> can do as he pleases with his creations — you can destroy him.
19:15:36 <elliott> Sgeo: It's possible that 3040 isn't the newest compiler, but whatever.
19:16:18 <Sgeo> "I don't do REAL NUMBERS. I do ratios, very elegantly, but I don't do reals."
19:16:26 <Sgeo> Can't they just say floating-point?
19:16:48 <elliott> Floating-point numbers aren't reals either :P
19:16:49 <Sgeo> Do they have to confuse EVERYONE and not just the people who don't know about FP in other languages?
19:16:55 <elliott> so that would explain the terminology
19:17:11 <Gregor> Y'know what the greatest thing about Plain English is?
19:17:20 <Gregor> In no sense of the words is it plain English.
19:17:31 <Gregor> AND YET IT TRIES SO HARD
19:18:17 <elliott> to add the allocate and deallocate and finalize and destroy routines:
19:18:17 <elliott> if the compiler's abort flag is set, exit.
19:18:17 <elliott> get a type from the types.
19:18:17 <elliott> add the finalize routine for the type.
19:18:18 <elliott> add the allocate routine for the type.
19:18:22 <elliott> add the deallocate routine for the type.
19:18:24 <elliott> add the destroy routine for the type.
19:19:38 <Sgeo> Does it do tail call optimization?
19:22:59 <Sgeo> "The third kind of comment that I understand is the qualifier." "Note that qualifiers are not like simple comments and remarks. Qualifiers are
19:23:00 <Sgeo> considered part of the program and affect how the compiled code executes."
19:23:52 -!- acetoline has joined.
19:27:15 <Sgeo> Hey awesome, Plain English does not have a garbage collecter
19:27:22 <Sgeo> (Unless I'm missing something)
19:27:51 <Sgeo> "(3) Anything more than this falls under the heading "garbage collection" and,
19:27:51 <Sgeo> as every manly programmer knows, garbage collection is for sissies."
19:30:06 <elliott> So anyway, I made up an esolang.
19:31:08 <elliott> Sgeo: [[You will find that my editor displays simple comments in a delightful sky blue,
19:31:08 <elliott> making it easy for you to see what I'm going to ignore. And no, you can't
19:31:08 <elliott> change the color. My creators have assured me that this is the right color.]]
19:31:39 <Sgeo> I like sky blue
19:31:57 <elliott> Somebody ask me about my esolang.
19:32:00 <Sgeo> I'm not switching my allegiance to Plain English just so I can see sky blue
19:32:29 <Sgeo> asiekierka, if he didn't, he'll pretend to
19:33:14 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[elliotting].
19:33:19 <elliott> I have asiekierka on ignore.
19:33:22 <elliott> asie[elliotting]: Don't do that.
19:33:31 -!- asie[elliotting] has changed nick to asiekierka.
19:33:42 <elliott> Also, "secret communication"; I still have logs.
19:33:57 <elliott> I don't think I'm quite crazy enough to make Herobrine ignore lines by people I ignore.
19:34:20 <asiekierka> Especially ones by me as they bring no value
19:34:27 <asiekierka> they'd make the logs about 42% smaller, too
19:40:54 <Gregor> elliott doesn't ignore too many people, he's just ignored by most everyone.
19:41:07 <Gregor> Now, if Herobrine didn't log people who ignored elliott ...
19:41:17 <elliott> Gregor: AFAIK nobody in here actually ignores me :P
19:41:27 <elliott> At least nobody who ever talks.
19:41:55 <Gregor> Maybe they'd talk more if they'd stop ignoring you.
19:43:13 <elliott> What Gregor is saying is, my iron phallus lords over this channel.
19:46:09 <cheater99> asiekierka: why would you ask elliott anything? he's obviously having another one of his ego trips
19:46:28 <quintopia> so was it decided that people could be psychology majors and still be accepted members of this channel?
19:46:53 <elliott> why would you ever want to do that
19:48:59 <quintopia> take computer science ideas and throw them at the brain and see what sticks
19:49:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:51:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
19:52:17 <elliott> psychology is not scientific in 90% of cases
19:52:33 <cheater99> what about social networks vs computer networks
19:52:55 <quintopia> j-invariant: i am already involved in a project to determine whether the visual system uses random projection to learn categories from a very small number of examples
19:53:21 * elliott thinks quintopia is either using the word "psychology" to mean something else, or is deluded
19:53:46 <quintopia> elliott: it's the school of psychology at a tech school. it's more mainstream cogsci than medical.
19:53:59 <elliott> quintopia: I'd call that cognitive science, not psychology.
19:54:20 <quintopia> nonetheless the degree would read phd in psychology
19:56:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
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20:12:28 * Sgeo WTFs at the existence of Procter & Gamble
20:12:39 <Sgeo> I've heard of it, but didn't know what it was
20:13:53 <Sgeo> SOAP OPERAS? The same company does razors, dental stuff, and SOAP OPERAS?
20:14:23 <quintopia> it makes sense when you consider the origin of soap operas
20:14:38 <quintopia> why are they called /soap/ operas you might ask
20:18:13 <elliott> Did I mention that my esolang cured world hunger?
20:19:30 <olsner> elliott: when did it do that?
20:19:41 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's called TICK
20:22:04 <Sgeo> What's its C FFI like?
20:23:38 <elliott> Sgeo: ...but Amethyst has a C FFI.
20:24:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Demonstration. [libc.puts "Hello, world!"]
20:24:34 <Sgeo> How well does it deal with C functions requiring callbacks?
20:24:48 <Sgeo> Or C functions that want void** pointers?
20:25:04 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:25:06 <elliott> Sgeo: [active_worlds_thing ^[x: [say x]]]
20:25:15 <elliott> void**? Why the extra star?
20:25:29 <Sgeo> So that the function can return a new void*
20:25:52 <Sgeo> In the AW SDK, void* are used to refer to instances
20:26:39 <elliott> [another-active-worlds-thing [ref my-thing]]]
20:27:14 <elliott> [another-active-worlds-thing [ref my-thing]]]
20:27:21 <elliott> would actually store the resulting pointer in my-thing
20:27:27 <elliott> *[another-active-worlds-thing my-thing]]
20:27:34 <elliott> Sgeo: But, uhh, you'd want a wrapper.
20:27:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Why are instances (void *) in AW...
20:27:53 <Sgeo> elliott, well, I'd make a wrapper, presumably
20:28:00 <Sgeo> elliott, don't ask me
20:28:11 <Sgeo> I guess they're nice and somewhat opaque?
20:28:15 <elliott> Sgeo: OK, better example. Let's say there's a function "void foo(int, int *)", which adds one to the first int and stores the result in the pointer.
20:28:54 <elliott> my-int-value: [deref my-int]
20:28:55 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Aw_create
20:29:04 <elliott> You could wrap it like this:
20:30:05 <elliott> This generalises to that void ** thing, but it's freaky and stupid so I don't want to think about how to do it exactly :P
20:31:43 <elliott> Sgeo: Although you could write that usage more simply as [ii say [foo-wrap 123]]
20:31:46 <elliott> (naming of ii not decided on)
20:32:10 <Sgeo> http://www.runrev.com/company/press-room/press-release-archive/runrev-unveils-the-worlds-easiest-programming-language Oh no, how much do you want to bet that this is crap?
20:33:12 <elliott> http://www.runrev.com/products/livecode/very-high-level-language/
20:33:37 -!- acetoline has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:34:08 <Sgeo> "The LiveCode language combined with the easy-to-use no-compile coding model mean youll start to see results faster than you would in any other language"
20:34:17 <Sgeo> *cough* Smalltalk *cough*
20:34:21 <Sgeo> http://www.runrev.com/solutions/beginners-and-hobbyists/beginners-and-hobbyists/
20:34:28 <elliott> That has nothing at all to do with Smalltalk whatsoever.
20:34:54 <Sgeo> "and youll learn all the concepts of modern programming you might need, whether in LiveCode or in any number of other environments you might be required to use later in your career."
20:35:43 <Sgeo> put Hello is in theText
20:38:05 <Sgeo> "The LiveCode Player (Formally revWeb Player) is a plugin technology allowing any application made in LiveCode to run in your browser. "
20:38:25 -!- quintopia has joined.
20:38:28 <Sgeo> WHY DOES THIS NEED TO EXIST IF THE CLAIMS YOU MAKE ARE TRUE?
20:39:22 <Sgeo> http://www.runrev.com/products/web/
20:39:26 <Sgeo> DEAR GOD PLEASE DIE
20:42:20 <olsner> "no-compile coding model" but "compile to ... applet files"
20:42:34 <olsner> and "without the need for users to download and install a standalone executable." but "a browser plugin" (apparently you don't have to install it?)
20:43:11 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:44:31 <Sgeo> I may have accidentally biased you
20:46:21 <Sgeo> Well, they were up in arms over the iOS TOS thing
20:46:38 <Sgeo> And Reddit seems to .. have taken that article and completely failed to comprehend it
20:46:43 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/c59ty/runrev_banned_from_app_store_jobs_says_someone/
20:47:29 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/c59ty/runrev_banned_from_app_store_jobs_says_someone/c0q72yb
20:47:35 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:48:26 <elliott> ?so if they just built their hypercard building app with c they could probably get it in the app store. But they wouldn't be able to say "use this app to make iphone aps". Again, what's the big deal?"
20:48:27 <lambdabot> if they just built their hypercard building app with c they could probably get it in the app store. But they wouldn't be able to say "use this app to make iphone aps". Again, what's the big deal?"
20:48:29 <Sgeo> The point is, Reddit complained that RunRev is being obtuse because "They never actually made an app", while failing to comprehend that any LiveCode apps are forbidden due to the TOS
20:48:32 <elliott> ITT: "I have no fucking idea what hypercard is"
20:49:47 <olsner> ehm, afaik the TOS have changed and no longer say that thing about "originally written"
20:50:02 <Sgeo> olsner, yes, but this was before then, presumably
20:50:07 <olsner> lol, the reddit stuff is 8 months old
20:50:25 <Sgeo> olsner, you think I might have searched Reddit for mentions of RunRev?
20:50:28 <elliott> ?so !c char *s="something"; printf("?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(%s,34,s,34);",34,s,34);
20:50:28 <lambdabot> !c char *s="something"; printf("?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(%s,34,s,34);",34,s,34); not available
20:50:34 <elliott> ?so !c char *s="something"; printf("?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(%s,34,s,34);",34,s,34);//
20:50:34 <lambdabot> !c char *s="something"; printf("?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(%s,34,s,34);",34,s,34);// not available
20:50:36 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="something"; printf(,34,s,34);
20:50:36 <lambdabot> !c char *s="something"; printf(,34,s,34); not available
20:50:42 <Sgeo> Instead of just noticing that this was on the front page, which it wasn't?
20:51:24 <Sgeo> RunRev is moronic, Reddit is moronic, Apple is evil
20:51:28 <elliott> ?so !c char *s=""?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:51:28 <lambdabot> !c char *s=""?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:51:33 <olsner> I somehow got the impression that you were all talking about it because it was put on reddit today
20:51:36 <elliott> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:51:36 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:51:38 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);"; printf(s,34,s,34);
20:51:38 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);"; printf(s,34,s,34); not available
20:51:51 <elliott> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:51:51 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:51:53 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:51:53 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:51:54 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:51:54 <Sgeo> I was googling Plain English and some article on RunRev's LiveCode came up
20:51:54 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:51:56 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:51:56 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:00 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:01 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:04 <elliott> ok now to tell ...who does lambdabot again?
20:52:05 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:05 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:07 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:07 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:10 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:10 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:12 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:12 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:14 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:14 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:17 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:17 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:19 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:19 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:20 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:21 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:22 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:23 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:24 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:24 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:26 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:26 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:28 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:28 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:30 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:30 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:32 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:32 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:34 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:34 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:35 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:36 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:37 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:37 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:42 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:42 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:44 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:44 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:46 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:46 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:47 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:48 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:49 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:49 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:51 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:51 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:53 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:54 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:55 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:55 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:57 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:57 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:52:59 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
20:52:59 <elliott> that's the first botloop in like
20:53:00 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);//"; printf(s,34,s,34);// not available
20:53:00 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:53:01 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:53:19 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:53:34 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, bot loops are a channel tradition :P
20:53:49 <Gregor> Note: I am not currently on a system with SSH access to codu, I had to SSH through another system to get there.
20:53:52 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src . ? @ v
20:53:56 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do more show src vote yow
20:54:30 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:55:13 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ ask bf do ft id msg pl rc src thx v wn
20:55:21 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ ask bf do ft id msg pl rc show src v wn yow
20:57:22 <olsner> elliott: congratz on the botloop
20:59:30 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\"
21:00:37 <elliott> > show . show . show . show $ ""
21:00:39 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\""
21:00:55 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
21:03:02 <olsner> > fix (Just . head . show)
21:03:51 <lambdabot> Just "Just \"Just \\\"Just \\\\\\\"Just \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Just \\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
21:03:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a'
21:04:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
21:04:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String -> a'
21:05:58 <oerjan> > fix (show . fix . shows)
21:06:00 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
21:06:23 <olsner> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:05 <elliott> olsner: how did yours work
21:09:09 <elliott> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:12 <elliott> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:13 <elliott> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:14 <olsner> elliott: it's an actual command name
21:09:14 <elliott> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:14 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\"
21:09:16 <elliott> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:21 <elliott> @src yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:21 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
21:09:32 <olsner> and an in-joke from #haskell a long time ago
21:09:43 <oerjan> @list yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:09:44 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
21:10:29 <olsner> it goes like this: an old version of lambdabot's eval plugin translated the expression to something like (let v = foo in show v)
21:10:53 <olsner> people discovered that it was called 'v' and exploited it to write various clever fixpoints
21:11:18 <olsner> then they renamed it to something more complicated, and people found that variable name, and so on until they ended up with yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
21:11:30 <olsner> some time after that I think the rewrote the whole thing
21:11:37 <olsner> so you can't do these tricks anymore
21:11:41 <elliott> why did they rename it, sounds fun
21:13:22 <olsner> there was something between that and mu-eval iirc, but that's irrelevant and boring
21:15:12 <variable> olsner, meh better to ptrace the program and block it from performing anything evil
21:15:15 <olsner> btw, @v and @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw are the same command, and both just give you a random quote from its list of 7 or so selected funnies
21:15:37 <elliott> variable variable variable
21:15:46 <elliott> olsner: Just 'J' -- FUNNIEST THING
21:15:53 <olsner> variable: no, I didn't ... *you* did, by chosing that nick
21:15:58 <elliott> <variable> olsner, meh better to ptrace the program and block it from performing anything evil
21:16:03 <elliott> what has that got to do with this?
21:16:03 <variable> elliott, should make a bot that displays a :-) when highlighted on programming channels :-\
21:16:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a'
21:16:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a'
21:16:17 <elliott> the actual evaluation was sandboxed
21:16:31 <variable> elliott, better than picking a random variable name and hoping that helps :-\
21:16:33 <olsner> elliott: what with the what? I was talking about highlighting, not ptrace
21:16:45 <elliott> variable: erm "> v" didn't do anything evil
21:16:50 <elliott> variable: it just produced a silly string
21:17:23 <olsner> something like that might've been the "Exception: <<loop>>" one anyway
21:18:48 <elliott> j-invariant: DO YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT MY NEW ESOLANG, it: cured world hunger
21:19:18 <olsner> learn to program food, call it an esolang, use it to cure world hunger
21:19:21 <elliott> you're not j-invariant and you cured hunger
21:50:03 <elliott> val = VInt . read <$> many1 digit
21:50:03 <elliott> <|> vintChar <$> (char '\'' *> anyChar <* char '\'')
21:50:03 <elliott> <|> VList <$> (char '[' *> val `sepBy` char ',' <* char ']')
21:50:03 <elliott> <|> VList . map vintChar <$> (char '"' *> many (noneOf "\"") <* char '"')
21:50:04 <elliott> <|> VHole <$> many1 alphaNum
21:51:02 <olsner> an applicative parser!
21:54:24 <oerjan> well those _are_ Applicative functions too
21:54:49 <elliott> indeed, i'm using parsec 3
21:54:55 <elliott> what would be nice here is idiom brackets...
21:56:16 <elliott> between b x a = b *> x <* a
21:58:06 <elliott> rule = (,) <$> event <*> (string "->" *> event)
21:58:06 <elliott> <|> flip (,) <$> event <*> (string "<-" *> event)
21:58:12 <oerjan> for all Applicatives, i'd think
21:58:45 <oerjan> it's just liftA3 (\b x a -> x)
21:59:20 <oerjan> yes, the actions are performed left to right
21:59:39 <elliott> x <* a is do x' <- x; a; return x'
21:59:42 <elliott> j-invariant: no, it's absolutely great
21:59:55 <elliott> j-invariant: look at this:
21:59:58 <elliott> rule = (,) <$> event <*> (spaces *> string "->" *> spaces *> event <* char ';')
22:00:08 <elliott> you find the actual value by seeing what the *>s and <*s "contain"
22:00:16 <elliott> *> foo <* == this is the value here
22:00:22 <elliott> and it's written in the order that it's parsed
22:00:32 <elliott> that would be less scannable
22:00:36 <elliott> this way you can look for "> x <"
22:01:19 <oerjan> j-invariant: *< would be illogical, the argument on the * side behaves similarly for the two operators
22:01:34 <oerjan> (i.e. its value is discarded)
22:01:58 <olsner> you can think what you want, but that doesn't make it right :)
22:02:45 <elliott> j-invariant: what oerjan said is very relevant
22:04:21 <copumpkin> don't_keep_this_one_either *>>>>> keep_this_value <<<<<* don't_keep_this_value
22:04:23 <oerjan> although if Monads and Applicatives had been properly subclassed, then they would just have been called >> and <<
22:05:42 * copumpkin doesn't have access to j-invariant's machine
22:05:43 <oerjan> i guess that is more analogous to >>= vs. =<< though
22:06:03 <copumpkin> those have data dependencies, so there can only be one order
22:06:27 <j-invariant> oerjan: since a *> b /= b <* a, I don't like the notation
22:06:54 <copumpkin> in testing frameworks and such you often have ?= and =?
22:08:23 <elliott> while "a xyz b == b zyx a" is kinda nice it is not all /that/ important
22:08:34 <elliott> you'd have to scan for "> foo *"
22:08:41 <j-invariant> elliott: it is more important to me whther something is "ugly" or not
22:08:59 <copumpkin> a mnemonic is useful on sequences of punctuation
22:09:13 <elliott> j-invariant: *> and <* are not ugly at all
22:09:34 <j-invariant> in the quest for removing uglyness people invent stuff like ruby
22:09:51 <Sgeo> One of my webcomics is down!
22:10:01 <copumpkin> j-invariant: damn, you just used the godwin of programming language
22:10:47 <j-invariant> hm I should make a language called phithon where indentation is based on fibonacci numbers
22:11:19 <elliott> i wonder if my esolang could reasonably be called functional
22:11:22 <oerjan> phitler. it would _really_ be the godwin of programming languages.
22:11:38 <j-invariant> SYNTAX ERROR ON LINE 31: Indentation does not correspond to a fibonacci number
22:12:06 <elliott> `quote dynamic indentation
22:12:18 <elliott> very relevant, if HackEgo ever gets around to it
22:12:36 <elliott> `run grep 'dynamic indentation' quotes
22:12:38 <HackEgo> <oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program
22:12:56 <oerjan> you know perfectly well HackEgo doesn't get quote searches with spaces in, unless someone repaired that
22:13:05 <elliott> oerjan: well it's my bug, and i like to be ignorant of my own bugs
22:13:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
22:13:32 <elliott> I can't figure out the bug :P
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22:14:02 <oerjan> shell escaping is a dark art which i'm not even going to attempt
22:14:12 <elliott> hm perhaps -eq would help there rather than =
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22:14:53 <elliott> j-invariant: i don't wnana :D
22:16:06 <elliott> j-invariant: stop thinking your program sucks :)
22:16:28 <elliott> j-invariant: that it doesn't suck
22:16:35 <j-invariant> also I don't know how to do errors because thre is no "what is the type of object here" function
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22:16:46 <elliott> j-invariant: you mean manual typechecking?
22:17:00 <elliott> j-invariant: i don't get what you mean then
22:17:06 <j-invariant> anyway I just solved it, definea generic function that describes what sort of object you are
22:17:18 <elliott> j-invariant: this generic function stuff is not very idiomatic :P
22:17:19 <j-invariant> elliott: instead of ERROR: No implementation for #<pict>
22:17:27 <j-invariant> elliott: I want ERROR: No implementation for algebraic
22:17:36 <oerjan> `cp bin/quotes bin/quotes2
22:17:45 <elliott> dunno... still... it's not idiomatic :D
22:17:52 <j-invariant> elliott: actually that still sucks, if it gives an error for something I haven't defined a description for :/
22:18:02 <elliott> j-invariant: this is because you rolled your own :P
22:18:04 <j-invariant> I don't care about buzzwords like idiomatic
22:18:32 <elliott> j-invariant: well it reminds me of writing a haskell program that uses Data.Dynamic constantly
22:18:43 <elliott> that's what it looks like to my scheme goggles :)
22:19:22 <j-invariant> how would you impleemnt a + function that acts in the following way (+ 3 4) ;=> 7, (+ '(a b c) '(x y z)) ;=> (a b c x y z)
22:20:16 <j-invariant> the only reason I wanted a description of the type of the object is for error messages
22:20:28 <elliott> j-invariant: as unhelpful as that is :P
22:20:38 <elliott> j-invariant: but er racket has an object system, you could try that, but i dunno
22:20:40 <j-invariant> elliott: it makes me think your criticism is unfounded
22:20:48 <j-invariant> elliott: the racket system is probably just a bad version of my one
22:20:59 <oerjan> elliott: my brain refused
22:20:59 <elliott> j-invariant: a bad version??
22:21:10 <j-invariant> yeah it's like 30000 lines of code, mine is 20
22:21:25 <elliott> j-invariant: and it will be 30, when you have good error messages ...
22:21:46 <j-invariant> it would still be 20 when I add error messages
22:21:57 <j-invariant> I would just have replaced x with (type-description-of x)
22:22:13 <j-invariant> anyway it doesn't matter because the whole thing sucks and gets rewritten differently
22:22:17 <elliott> and the implementation of type-description-of :P
22:23:58 <j-invariant> I just want the proofs so I don't have to worry about bugs :/
22:25:47 <elliott> j-invariant: haha... you've been damaged by COq
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22:29:27 <j-invariant> elliott: it's too bad I can't actually use it for anything I want to do
22:29:49 <elliott> j-invariant: hehe... i promise programming without proofs can work :)
22:30:26 <j-invariant> people today seem to think bugs are inevitable and they actually brute force (!) their programs to try and filter out some of them
22:30:51 <elliott> j-invariant: I write programs without proofs
22:30:56 <elliott> and they have bugs but the bugs get ironed out
22:31:09 <elliott> and if it wasn't for me adding features, they'd eventually become reliable
22:31:14 <j-invariant> elliott: so what? It's pretty clear you aren't goint to write my pogram for me :P
22:31:18 <elliott> Think how much of the world lives on software :P
22:31:25 <elliott> j-invariant: but it's evidence that programming without proofs is doable..
22:31:56 <elliott> j-invariant: bug-free programming without proofs isn't possible, but that's why you do things iteratively
22:32:34 <elliott> a bug that nobody hits is not yet a bug; a program that nobody uses has no bugs; so if you use your program, and don't hit a bug, it's perfect
22:32:39 <elliott> if you then hit a bug, then you can fix it
22:32:43 <j-invariant> well bug is too vauge a notion, let me say there are some specific things I want to be true of my program --- maybe ti will have other bugs but at least it will satisfy my specification
22:32:52 <elliott> so basically programs either don't get used, or have their bugs revealed, in time
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22:35:32 <j-invariant> elliott: what a bout a program which satisfies some spec.
22:37:44 <elliott> j-invariant: you write it making sure it satisfies it :-)
22:37:54 <elliott> if it turns out that in some point of the future, it fails to verify the spec, then you figure out why, and fix it
22:37:58 <elliott> and it is, then, bug-free until someone hits another bug
22:38:14 <elliott> as time goes to infinity, bugs go to 0, unless you add features a lot, in which case it kinda fluctuates
22:38:21 <elliott> but eventually you end up with a program with every feature and no bugs
22:38:27 <elliott> trust in limits!!!!!!1312904
22:39:28 <j-invariant> yeah that seems completely idiotic, the fact that absolutely everyone works that way isn't enough to convince me otherwise
22:40:01 <elliott> j-invariant: not even Wiles got it all right the first time
22:40:03 <j-invariant> maybe programming isn't flat? maybe it's actually round. I want to sail to the edge and find out
22:40:34 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah but have you considered there might be another way to program effectively...
22:40:39 <elliott> iteratively, with proofs, ???
22:40:58 <j-invariant> elliott: We are discussing ways to program effectively, and you ask me that? :P
22:41:12 <elliott> j-invariant: i'm sayin' that you seem to believe that there's only two ways to program
22:41:16 <j-invariant> Phantom__Hoover: well I am certainly having trouble getting my orientation on it, so that could well be
22:41:51 <j-invariant> well maybe there are more ways but afaict nobody knows them
22:42:13 <elliott> j-invariant: you said you want to find out if programming is flat or round
22:42:20 <Phantom__Hoover> j-invariant, you can use my method of programming, i.e. procrastinating after half-finishing it.
22:42:23 <elliott> j-invariant: whatever it is, go to the edge and see what happens :P
22:42:31 <elliott> j-invariant: if you don't know what the third way is surely that's encouraging???
22:42:47 <elliott> j-invariant: because it means it's something people haven't really analysed yet...
22:42:56 <elliott> and if you want to explore the design space...
22:47:00 * Sgeo is slightly disturbed by the Scala people telling him to learn a different language
22:47:19 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, don't listen to them. If you learn another language the world will EXPLODE
22:47:54 <Sgeo> I think one of their recommendations was Clojure. Also on their list: Haskell and OCaml
22:48:50 <Sgeo> j-invariant, well, I mentioned that I didn't care at all about the JVM or learning Java libraries
22:49:03 <j-invariant> Sgeo: to be honest Scala is a gigantic mess, you probably have to know every language it's based on except one to be able to learn it
22:49:28 <elliott> yeah but Sgeo is a gigantic mess, he'll fit right in
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22:58:12 <elliott> @pl \rs -> concatMap (\e -> concatMap (\(t,(s,as)) -> maybe [] (\bs -> [(s, map (subst bs) as)]) (bindings e t)) rs)
22:58:13 <lambdabot> (=<<) . (. ((`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip flip snd . (ap .) . flip flip fst . (((.) . flip (flip . (maybe [] .) . flip flip [] . ((flip . ((:) .)) .) . (. flip (map . subst)) . (.) . (,))) .) .
22:59:45 <elliott> @pl \rs -> concatMap (\e -> concatMap (\(t,(s,as)) -> maybe [] (\bs -> [(s, map (subst bs) as)]) (bindings t e)) rs)
22:59:47 <lambdabot> (=<<) . (. ((`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip flip snd . (ap .) . flip flip fst . (((.) . flip (flip . (maybe [] .) . flip flip [] . ((flip . ((:) .)) .) . (. flip (map . subst)) . (.) . (,))) .) . flip
22:59:52 <elliott> oerjan: don't remind me that i haven't got any yet :p
23:00:04 <oerjan> elliott: i just started yesterday
23:00:18 <elliott> oerjan: how much are you taking per night? curious
23:00:37 <elliott> oerjan: how much is a pill :P
23:00:47 <elliott> "How much is that?" "Oh, about one unit.'
23:01:37 <Sgeo> I kind of like Scala's implict stuff, it's sort of like safe monkeypatching
23:01:39 <oerjan> Yksi tabletti sisältää 2 mg melatoniinia says the finnish text, the others are hidden by the prescription label
23:02:12 <elliott> oerjan: hm that's more than i've seen recommended (1.5mg)
23:02:22 <elliott> although i've also seen it being sold in 3mg tablets
23:02:42 <elliott> oerjan: is it working for you? i haven't yet seen anybody saying "it did absolutely nothing!" which is kinda weird
23:03:22 <oerjan> it didn't work yesterday but that may have something to do with how nervous i was (i had an appointment today too)
23:03:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:03:55 <elliott> oerjan: well 1.5mg supposedly knocks you out after 1 hour, maybe you didn't wait long enough :D
23:04:02 <oerjan> or rather, i got _tired_ but it took me at least 3 hours before i actually _slept_
23:04:28 <oerjan> the prescription says to take 1-2 hours before bedtime
23:05:08 <elliott> might need a higher dosage then
23:07:36 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin.html is the standard advocacy piece
23:08:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:08:46 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll take melatonin tonight
23:09:21 <elliott> What reason do you have /not/ to?
23:09:36 <j-invariant> Would that more Haskellers had this mindset! Indeed, would that more people in general had this mindset; as it is, people have bad habits of repeatedly failing when they think they have special information, are highly overconfident even in objective areas with quick feedback, and badly overestimate how many good ideas they can come up with4
23:12:43 <Sgeo> So, saw my first O'Brien Must Suffer episode
23:13:26 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn how to play Go
23:13:33 <j-invariant> elliott: http://www.gwern.net/Wooden%20pillows.html wow
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23:14:21 <elliott> j-invariant: i could never do that :)
23:16:05 <elliott> j-invariant: re polyphasic sleep, nobody claims 1 hours is doable ... but two ... http://tesser.org/sleep/teslapattern/
23:16:10 <j-invariant> 23:22 < bays_three> IF YOU USE A SYMETRICAL SYMBOL FOR AN ASYMMETRICAL RELATION OR VICE VERSA YOU ARE A PEDERAST
23:16:26 <elliott> Tesla actually results in 80 minutes of sleep.
23:16:30 <Sgeo> OCaml or Standard ML?
23:16:49 <elliott> j-invariant: so yes, the craziest adherents do claim 1 hour will work! (+ 20 minutes)
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23:20:50 <elliott> http://qwantz.com/index.php <-- best Dinosaur Comic of late? Answer: NO, there is no best Dinosaur Comic of late, they are all perfect.
23:20:57 <elliott> *http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1882
23:23:23 <Sgeo> I wish Oz didn't seem so dead
23:25:08 <elliott> another language for Sgeo to enjoy briefly and then leave in disgust
23:25:38 <j-invariant> I wonder if I could make a programming language that didn't exist
23:25:38 <Sgeo> The only thing that disgusts me about Oz is the apparent abandonment by the community
23:25:49 <j-invariant> Like have a wonderful thriving community, a really cool web2.0 site etc. etc.
23:25:54 <elliott> j-invariant: Sgeo would adore it.
23:39:56 <Sgeo> Oh, I misrepresented them, they were talking about OCaml's module system
23:41:55 <elliott> Sgeo: Misrepresented who...
23:43:04 <Sgeo> The people in #scala
23:43:52 <oerjan> elliott: (concatMap .) . ($ uncurry . flip . ($ ((maybe [] .) . ((:[]) .) . (. subst) $ uncurry (.) . ((,) *** flip map))) . flip (.) . bindings) . flip concatMap
23:44:04 <elliott> oerjan: have you been working on that ever since?
23:44:14 <elliott> oerjan: i don't actually want to make it point-free ;D
23:44:26 * elliott has been kicked by oerjan (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH)
23:44:27 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
23:44:42 <elliott> i appreciate the effort though, you mad bastard
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23:54:56 <j-invariant> elliott: shortly after complaining about DRM
23:54:57 <j-invariant> I love you, Twitter! I do sometimes only see the negative, but almost all of you are positive and awesome! <3
23:55:03 <Gregor> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230575982950 <-- who wants a fast-track Pandora?
23:55:15 <elliott> j-invariant: lol, Notch complaining about Twitte
23:55:22 <elliott> Gregor: I'll take your Pandora
23:55:41 <elliott> Gregor: Anywho, waaay too pricey :P
23:55:42 <Gregor> elliott: No. No you won't.
23:55:59 <elliott> ...and also why does the Pandora have a tiny, useless keyboard.
23:56:13 <Gregor> My cell phone has a keyboard.
23:56:18 <Gregor> It's because touchscreen keyboards suck ass.
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23:57:59 <elliott> Gregor: IT'S A HANDHELD GAMES DEVICE
23:59:01 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: People who don't take apart pens are lame.
23:59:29 <elliott> How... do you know...he takes apart pens.
23:59:32 <Phantom__Hoover> OMG YOU NOTICED THOSE PENS WHERE THE CLIPPY BIT IS ALSO THE LOCKING MECHANISM
23:59:42 <Gregor> elliott: I have a video of a particularly effective pen projectile on YouTube :P
23:59:46 <elliott> Did you look him up on MyPenIsTakenApartForAllToSee?
23:59:56 <elliott> You know, mypenistakenapartforalltosee.com.
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00:05:35 <elliott> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ClearBF
00:05:40 <elliott> This project was a scholar project at ENSIAS - Morocco to build a compiler in C/Flex. The team is supervised by Mr. Karim Baîna and Mrs. Mounia ABIK. Members of the team are: [...]
00:05:52 <elliott> http://clearbf.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/clearbf-project-introduced-at-esolang/
00:05:56 <elliott> ClearBF Project introduced at Esolang !
00:05:56 <elliott> We have just announced the ClearBF Project in the Esolang official website. In fact, we’ve added a new page in the wiki to present our project.
00:12:31 <Sgeo> This sounds like the sort of thing I used to support
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00:20:11 <Sgeo> Easy compilation to BF
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00:20:29 <elliott> C->BF is interesting, Scheme->BF would be, anything else, naw :P
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00:22:53 <Sgeo> There's a specific language with that goal in mind
00:23:22 <Sgeo> In connection with a brainfuck CPU iirc
00:23:56 <Sgeo> http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcomp.html
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00:51:15 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn Lisp Flavored Erlang
00:54:54 <Sgeo> Or I should just learn Erlang
00:55:20 <Sgeo> How do I keep from being bored while looking at ooc?
00:56:07 <Sgeo> Better yet: Show me in what order I should read the guide
00:56:33 <elliott> make him feel the pain i feel
00:56:55 <Sgeo> elliott, surely you must have learned about all these languages somehow
00:57:07 <elliott> yes, reddit throws me at them.
00:57:20 <elliott> atomo for instance i looked at the front page once and decided it was shit.
01:00:12 <Sgeo> what about it?
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01:02:45 <nooga> i just looked at it
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01:15:21 <elliott> http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/misc/elpp.html
01:15:24 <elliott> Gregor: So what happened to WIKI!
01:15:34 <elliott> Exclamation marks in a project name, a sure sign of insanity.
01:16:40 <nooga> compilation to BF is completely useless
01:16:40 <Gregor> I turned "Wiki!" into Giki, maintained it for a few years, then it was superceded by Hackiki.
01:17:15 <nooga> since compiling BF to make programs run faster is pretty non trivial
01:18:03 <nooga> i should think about an array of primitive, super-fast hardware bf processors in FPGA
01:18:36 <nooga> then the compilers targeting brainfuck would gain some purpose
01:24:11 <elliott> Gregor: What language is Hackiki written in?
01:24:44 <Gregor> elliott: What little there is that is properly Hackiki is in PHP. The wiki software you actually see is Python.
01:24:57 <elliott> Gregor: PHP communicating with a chroot?
01:25:10 <Gregor> PHP does no communicating with a chroot.
01:25:19 <Gregor> plash does all the chrooting and shtuff.
01:25:32 <elliott> Gregor: PHP communicating with plash... nope, I'm still vomiting :P
01:25:49 <Gregor> exec("pola-run", "shtuff") OH NOSE
01:25:50 <elliott> Gregor: I swear plash is overkill >_>
01:26:02 <Gregor> Probably, but it's good fun 8-D
01:26:04 <elliott> Mostly due to the fact that, despite its huge amount of code, it's still primarily libc-only :P
01:26:36 <elliott> Which is like writing the cleverest, optimising Brainfuck interpreter ever... in sed, making it one of the slowest out there.
01:27:59 <elliott> Gregor: Also the Debian-specificity is lame, even if you're a Debian fan :P
01:28:14 <elliott> (Because "only works on Debian" = "YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO DEAL WITH DEBIAN STUFF")
01:28:14 <Gregor> Yeah, that is kinda lame *shrugs*
01:28:36 <elliott> See botte has a Linux-portable layer for sandb...
01:28:55 <elliott> (In all srsness though, overriding syscalls isn't hard, see: anarchy golf, which has very good sandboxing :P)
01:29:57 <Gregor> I don't want to write something myself, and plash is trivially simple to use. There are other things that have their own system hacked in, but nothing so easily usable as plash that I've seen.
01:30:32 <elliott> Oh, certainly, it's not something you can fix without a project, I'm just saying that thankfully a project isn't too much work :P
01:31:00 <variable> pur-logicsolutions.com/.../White_Paper_7_Shortcuts_To_Lose_Your_Data_And_Probably_Your_Job_1_.pdf -->
01:31:17 <elliott> Gregor: OK, by "replacing syscalls" I didn't actually mean that.
01:31:26 <elliott> I meant overriding syscall().
01:31:45 <elliott> I forget how to handle statically-linked stuff :P
01:32:00 <Gregor> Do what plash does: Stick it in a chroot.
01:32:20 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but if you're happy relying on a chroot you can just use a chroot...
01:32:45 <Gregor> The chroot is just what it uses to set the lower-bound, I would NOT be happy with a chroot.
01:33:08 <elliott> Gregor: But you can reduce it to being just-a-chroot by calling syscalls directly or statically linking.
01:33:22 <elliott> Admittedly a rather empty one, but that's lame; you should be able to use a stock libc imo
01:33:33 <elliott> because plenty of stuff doesn't use libc :P
01:33:38 <elliott> OK, so not plenty of stuff, but...
01:33:45 <Gregor> elliott: Fine. Write the system that provides what I need doing that, and I'll use it.
01:33:55 <Gregor> Oh, doesn't exist? Actually a bitch to write? Well then I'll continue using plash.
01:33:58 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not criticising your choice, I'm thinking out aloud...
01:34:24 <elliott> I'm just sayin' that "I would NOT be happy with a chroot" is silly, because plash is trivially reducable to a chroot :P
01:34:45 <Gregor> It's reducible by attempting to be malicious.
01:34:55 <Gregor> 99.99999999% of programs will not see the empty chroot.
01:35:42 <elliott> Gregor: You mean benign programs aren't a security risk, but malicious programs are?
01:35:59 <elliott> I cannot think of a response :P
01:36:11 <Gregor> No, malicious programs can't do shit, but benign programs are happy.
01:37:05 <Gregor> Oh, I see what you're saying, I'm providing no greater protection than running the program in an empty chroot as a random user.
01:37:12 <Gregor> It's all convenience beyond that.
01:37:45 <elliott> Gregor: But there are programs that don't use libc... and programs you might want to link statically with another libc... etc.; OK, so they're rare, but plash is big enough that it should be platonically perfect :-P
01:37:54 <elliott> You could do it easily with a kernel module.
01:37:57 * Sgeo ponders Erlang web frameworks
01:38:07 <elliott> (Although writing to the syscall table is probably Unsupported I imagine it works.)
01:38:14 <Gregor> elliott: Doing it by a kernel module would be frikkin' awesome.
01:38:18 <Sgeo> <elliott> <some generic thing about being in pain>
01:38:28 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, I am really tempted to do that now...
01:38:41 <elliott> The practice of replacing syscall table entries is frowned upon by
01:38:41 <elliott> Linus and the other kernel maintainers -- so much so that the
01:38:41 <elliott> sys_call_table symbol is no longer exported. This explains why your
01:38:41 <elliott> module can't find it. If you care to know more details, use google to
01:38:41 <elliott> find the (many and extensive) discussions about, for and against the
01:38:55 <elliott> Gregor: Woot, so it _is_ possible, just so frowned upon that I get to do fun hackery to manage to do it :-D
01:39:06 <elliott> [[1. Modify the kernel source to directly include your own system call
01:39:07 <elliott> 2. Modify the kernel source to export the sys_call_table symbol. (Of
01:39:07 <elliott> course, your modification won't ever make it into the official kernel
01:39:07 <elliott> source tree but if you're just trying to learn...)
01:39:07 <elliott> 3. Figure out how to dynamically locate the sys call table from your
01:39:09 <elliott> loadable module. (This is ugly and I don't recommend it, but it
01:39:11 <elliott> certainly seems feasible. Hint: where in kernel memory could you find a
01:39:13 <elliott> block of 230+ consecutive words, each of which contains a valid kernel
01:39:20 <elliott> Gregor: Since when has the Linux kernel policy been to stop people from shooting themselves in the foot???
01:39:40 <elliott> [[I am trying to develope recycle bin like thing in Linux.
01:39:41 <elliott> For that i need to override unlink sys call!.
01:39:41 <elliott> Anyways,It is working now!!
01:39:41 <elliott> > Anything that can be done by intercepting a system call can be done
01:39:41 <elliott> > another way. What are you trying to do?
01:39:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Anything'Not in scope: `that'Not in scope: ...
01:39:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `do'
01:39:46 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `]'
01:39:47 <elliott> WORST REASON TO OVERRIDE SYSCALLS EVER
01:40:36 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, couldn't you get most of the way by using FUSE, actually?
01:40:40 <Gregor> Time to see if SDL_mixer 1.2.11 does seamless looping of .ogg properly ...
01:40:49 <elliott> Network access can be restricted in other ways, inside a chroot not much else matters but the fs...
01:40:54 <elliott> At least that's what I'm thinking.
01:41:04 <Gregor> elliott: Plash doesn't handle networking.
01:41:12 <Gregor> elliott: Actually FUSE does sound like a nice solution.
01:41:33 <elliott> But yeah, I think FUSE would get you like 75% of what overriding syscalls would, without all the fuss.
01:41:44 <elliott> Since it's basically equivalent to overriding all filesystem syscalls...
01:41:47 <Gregor> Much more flexible too :P
01:42:15 <elliott> And the only syscalls are pretty much random local shit + filesystem + network + root-only shit that the unprivileged user can't use anyway :P
01:42:28 <elliott> Admittedly network would be nice to control...
01:42:45 <elliott> But there's not much control you could do anyway beyond blanket policies.
01:42:52 <Gregor> There is no netfuse :P
01:43:01 <elliott> Gregor: Err, how's that related?
01:43:04 <elliott> I mean controlling the network syscalls.
01:43:41 <Gregor> elliott: Well, a user-controllable tuntap (netfuse) + a net version of chroot = tada :P
01:44:11 <Gregor> YES YES YES SEAMLESS LOOPING
01:44:12 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, I am confused. You mean create a virtual network device?
01:44:59 <elliott> Gregor: Just make the tuntap a named pipe or a FIFO or whatever the kids are calling it this day.
01:45:08 <elliott> Or even mount /dev as FUSE.
01:45:09 <Gregor> Yeah, I didn't quite think that one through :P
01:45:12 <elliott> And have it control your tuntap.
01:45:26 <Gregor> Anyway, you can't lock a process to a particular network device (AFAIK?)
01:45:45 <elliott> Gregor: Can't you "hide" eth0 somehow?
01:45:54 <elliott> Gregor: You know how you block network access in HackEgo?
01:45:57 <elliott> Just do it the same: firewall.
01:46:08 <elliott> Gregor: And you run the tuntap from /outside/.
01:46:33 <Gregor> So just use that instead of my HTTP proxy.
01:46:57 <elliott> Gregor: Plenty of legit non-HTTP connections to make :P
01:47:11 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, what would the FUSE fs do, anyway, apart from protect certain files?
01:47:38 <Gregor> elliott: Plash is essentially a unionfs, which is nice since I can have a hackiki fs checked out to <wherever> always be at /hackiki
01:48:01 <Gregor> (A unionfs with its own security system of course)
01:48:14 <elliott> Gregor: Sure, it's just that I've just forgotten what plash actually protects again :P
01:48:17 <elliott> Help me out here, brainfart...
01:48:49 <Gregor> w.r.t. the filesystem, it's just about writability.
01:48:58 <Gregor> The rest comes from chroot+random-user.
01:49:45 <elliott> Gregor: Can't you just do that by setting the owner?
01:50:07 <Gregor> Yeah ... but that's global ...
01:50:35 <elliott> Gregor: Eh? What local permissions do you have in hackego/hackiki?
01:51:27 <Gregor> Pretty minor actually :P
01:51:41 <elliott> Gregor: Example? I'm really having trouble thinking here :P
01:51:52 <Gregor> Just read on /usr and friends, r/w to /hackiki which is really /tmp/<foo> and read/write to /tmp which is really /tmp/<bar>
01:52:27 <elliott> Gregor: So basically, it's unix permissions + mapping two directories to process-specific ones :P
01:52:35 <elliott> http://www.themonkeysyouordered.com/ OH MY GOD THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER.
01:52:39 <elliott> New Yorker cartoons with literal captions.
01:52:44 <elliott> http://www.kottke.org/plus/misc/images/literal-new-yorker.jpg
01:53:07 <Gregor> elliott: I used plash because it's easy, not because I needed all of it :P
01:53:26 <elliott> Gregor: Sure, sure, I just had this LAPSE OF JUDGEMENT where I considered THROWING IT ALL OUT :P
01:53:40 <Gregor> elliott: Note that although plash didn't invent empty chroots and random users, it sure makes them easy to use :P
01:54:04 <elliott> Gregor: Except that you don't NEED an empty chroot :P
01:54:05 <elliott> <Gregor> Just read on /usr and friends, r/w to /hackiki which is really /tmp/<foo> and read/write to /tmp which is really /tmp/<bar>
01:54:16 <elliott> The remapping is the only thing that doesn't fit into straight unix permissions there..
01:54:39 <Gregor> <Gregor> elliott: I used plash because it's easy, not because I needed all of it :P
01:54:56 <elliott> Gregor: Sure, sure, I realise that, you think I'm being antagonistic or questioning your approach or something
01:56:19 <Gregor> I am in no way stopping you from writing the simpler alternative :P
01:57:21 <Gregor> Watching really bad TV shows on Hulu: So awesome.
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02:06:54 <Sgeo> I think Erlang may make it too easy to write my own impure functions
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02:28:04 <Gregor> OK, SDL_mixer is actually pretty awesome.
02:28:10 <Gregor> For some reason I was convinced that it was really difficult to use.
02:28:18 <Gregor> But I just went from no music to perfect seamless looping in no time flat.
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04:18:36 <benuphoenix> question: out of boredom, i decided to moniter the logs of my linode server. someone is trying to connect to it. what do i do?
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04:43:03 <Mathnerd314> benuphoenix: hunt them down and **** with them until they stop
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08:43:24 <Ilari> Apparently IANA is delaying it to create a media event...
08:57:03 <Ilari> Anyway, both main estimates are "today" now...
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09:08:39 <pikhq> And APNIC is sitting at 1.67 /8s.
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09:21:51 <Ilari> The new figures aren't out yet.
09:23:49 <Ilari> I think those figures appear in about 6 hours...
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12:27:30 <Ilari> That is, I think the figures update at about 15:15Z or so...
12:30:23 <Ilari> And then one will see if today APNIC allocated something like a /14 or something like a /9...
12:34:37 <Sgeo> "Warning: This document contains examples of bad code.
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13:17:49 <quintopia> the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss
13:18:49 <j-invariant> quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode
13:19:01 <fizzie> Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays.
13:21:59 <quintopia> friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies
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13:26:57 <Ilari> At least IPv6 has no digital signatures (at least outside IPSec). I heard some nutter say it has...
13:34:15 <fizzie> But IPSec's a mandatory part of IPv6, so it still counts.
13:34:44 <quintopia> so, raise your hand if you are jealous of Craig Rowin
13:41:52 <Ilari> NSA has sabotaged it enough... :->
13:43:46 <Ilari> (No, I'm not saying that there's a backdoor in the IPSec specs... There isn't.)
13:50:42 <Ilari> Putting backdoor in specs is quite stupid. There are better methods to sabotage it... :-)
14:01:04 <j-invariant> http://ninapaley.com/mimiandeunice/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ME_160_Rivalrous1-640x199.png
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14:55:29 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Not one iota.
14:55:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, that is evidently why your trombute playing sucks,
14:57:41 <Ilari> IPv4 depletion mess: Now someone says that IANA does not plan to delay servicing the request (and thus main reason is APNIC somehow not sending the request).
14:58:51 <Ilari> Wow... Release date for DNF...
14:59:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: One of my great life plans is to make a series of instruments in which the note selection is by a keyboard, but the sound production is like the original instrument.
14:59:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: So a keyboard horn would be played by lip buzzing, but the note selected by a keyboard and the world's most complicated series of valves.
14:59:49 <Gregor> Kiol is probably the most impossible :P
15:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> That's not vastly difficult, except for the difficulty of bowing it while playing the keyboard.
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15:02:44 <Gregor> The problem, in my opinion, is mainly with making double-stops work in any way, and that essentially for it to make any physical sense you'd have to key with your right hand and bow with your /left/ hand.
15:05:15 <Gregor> (And bowing with your left hand is ... it's just wrong)
15:09:53 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but physically what does that do, and how do you bow it?
15:10:43 <Phantom_Hoover> (The pianoflute has issues with being either really tiny or several octaves too low to play.)
15:11:40 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I think the trick to that one is that the flute is shorter than the keyboard, and the actual terminus to the flute proper is somewhere midway on the instrument.
15:12:53 <Gregor> ... transverse? You'd be holding up your right hand at a bit of an angle to get to the keyboard, and holding it with your left hand.
15:13:21 <Gregor> Alternatively it could go with the bass-flute route and be blown transverse, but then have an immediate bend and actually be held upright.
15:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, we appear to have come to an insurmountable disagreement.
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15:14:15 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: How is yours played :P
15:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Like a piano, except there's a mouthpiece to blow into.
15:14:50 <Gregor> Well that's a melodica.
15:14:59 <Gregor> It would be difficult-to-impossible to make that produce a flute-like sound.
15:15:24 <Gregor> Because it's not blown transverse ... you could make a recorderalike like that and have a fipple.
15:15:52 <Gregor> Or The World's Most Impossible Instrument, the keyboe, with a double-reed mouthpiece.
15:16:27 <Gregor> You could even go the clarinet or saxophone route with a single reed (which sound you'll get depending on the rest of the construction)
15:16:40 <Gregor> But for a flute ... that's really got to be transverse.
15:21:45 <variable> I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this?
15:22:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> But for a flute ... that's really got to be transverse. ← yeah, that's the tricky bit.
15:29:10 <variable> could anyone please explain what http://oi56.tinypic.com/1qhocx.jpg means? Where does S2 go on B ?
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15:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <variable> I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this? ← I'd parse that as "can be matched in finite time by an FSA"
15:30:45 <variable> j-invariant, how does it choose? randomly?
15:31:20 <variable> Phantom_Hoover, that makes a bit more sense
15:31:52 <j-invariant> variable: consider the string abbbbbba it can accept that
15:32:10 <j-invariant> variable: by going s0 -> s1 -> s2 -> s1 -> s2 -> ... -> s2 -> s3 -> s4
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15:43:27 <j-invariant> If I write a program z = 3; w = f(x,y); f cannot destroy my value of z by accident
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15:52:13 <oerjan> IT'S THE FIIINAL COUNTDOOOWN
15:53:18 <oerjan> that was exactly what i expected it to be
15:53:29 <elliott> 02:13:44 <Sgeo> I think Erlang may make it too easy to write my own impure functions
15:53:37 <elliott> Sgeo: I thought you _liked_ that kind of shit.
15:53:46 <elliott> 04:25:30 <benuphoenix> question: out of boredom, i decided to moniter the logs of my linode server. someone is trying to connect to it. what do i do?
15:53:55 <elliott> set up a chroot and run ssh in it
15:53:59 <elliott> when they connect, they think they're root
15:54:04 <elliott> but every command does weird shit or mocks then
15:54:16 <elliott> I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that.
15:54:43 <elliott> 13:29:10 <quintopia> friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies
15:54:51 <elliott> quintopia: ah, Friend of Mine, the ultimate authority on everything
15:55:59 <oerjan> elliott: although i did briefly consider the opposite interpretation
15:56:16 <elliott> oerjan: using a car as ... a moustache?
15:56:35 <oerjan> a moustache shaped like a car
15:56:47 <oerjan> google seems to fail me
15:57:30 <elliott> 15:23:06 <Gregor> Or The World's Most Impossible Instrument, the keyboe, with a double-reed mouthpiece.
15:57:33 <elliott> Gregor: why does this not exist
15:57:46 <elliott> 15:28:59 <variable> I have a question about regular languages. An article I'm reading defines them to be "those languages which can be matched in a single pass using a fixed amount of memory". Can someone give me an example of something which fails this?
15:57:54 <elliott> variable: not commenting on whether that's a good definition
15:57:57 <elliott> variable: but consider a^nb^nc^n
15:58:05 <elliott> i.e. any number of as, the same number of bs, and the same number of cs
15:58:09 <elliott> you have to store the number of "a"s
15:58:14 <elliott> which is an unbounded natural
15:58:19 <elliott> and, therefore, takes arbitrary amounts of memory
15:58:25 <Gregor> That's not so much a definition as a consequence >_>
15:58:44 <elliott> 15:50:10 <j-invariant> it's forth stupid?
15:58:45 <elliott> 15:50:42 <j-invariant> If I write a program z = 3; w = f(x,y); f cannot destroy my value of z by accident
15:58:55 <elliott> j-invariant: in Haskell you can say "= undefined" why would you want that
15:59:00 <elliott> No Forther says that that is a feature :P
15:59:10 <elliott> You're treating that like it's a purported feature, not a caveat
16:01:11 <oerjan> variable: also matching parentheses is not regular
16:01:37 <elliott> oerjan: hey that means that you can't even implement finite-tape brainfuck on an FSA :D
16:01:41 <oerjan> *checking for proper matching of parentheses
16:01:46 <elliott> oerjan: because you can't parse every program
16:02:03 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, and yet finite-tape brainfuck isn't TC
16:02:08 <elliott> it's Turing-requiring but not Turing complete
16:02:39 <oerjan> elliott: parentheses matching doesn't require TC, just something within context-free
16:02:59 <elliott> well point is, it requires a more powerful automaton to run than it can actually "harness"
16:04:30 <oerjan> actually a^nb^n is enough for not being regular. a^nb^nc^n gives you not even context-free iirc
16:04:37 <oerjan> (stronger pumping lemma)
16:04:57 <elliott> hmm, someone needs to make a language based on a^nb^nc^n
16:05:03 <elliott> preferably, with almost no computational power :D
16:05:15 <oerjan> why does that ring a bell
16:06:25 <Ilari> a^n b^n c^n is context-sensitive but not context-free.
16:06:36 <Ilari> Same for a^n b^n c^n d^n
16:07:33 <oerjan> yeah adding letter doesn't help, context-free == needs at most linear memory
16:09:41 <Ilari> Fun task: Describe a language that is not even context-sensitive but is recognable by recursive algorithm.
16:10:02 <oerjan> and that's enough for most things you'd want to do in practice, even includes SAT (NP-complete)
16:10:50 <oerjan> Ilari: ML/Haskell type checking iirc
16:11:08 <oerjan> or possibly that's just on the border of unknown equality
16:12:59 -!- variable has quit (Quit: hit 60 second ping time - reconnecting).
16:13:09 <Ilari> oerjan: What's the complexity class of that (at least the bounds for the class)?
16:15:02 -!- invariable has joined.
16:15:19 <invariable> elliott, what does Turing-requiring mean?
16:15:32 <elliott> it's something i just made up and ignore me
16:16:17 <invariable> also a^nb^nc^n == a{n}b{n}c{n} in regex
16:16:34 <oerjan> Ilari: bah i'm having trouble googling it
16:16:38 <elliott> invariable: no that's not valid regex
16:16:49 <elliott> regex = REGular EXpressions, most regexp implementations are actually more powerful than regular languages
16:16:52 <elliott> but it's still mostly regular :)
16:17:15 <elliott> only perl regexes can do a^nb^nc^n i think
16:17:30 <ais523> elliott: discussion we had recently at work: not counting (??{}) and (?{}) (i.e. embedded Perl), are Perl regexen TC?
16:17:46 <ais523> I'm not entirely convinced Perl regexen /can/ do a^nb^nc^n
16:17:55 <ais523> (although they can definitely do a^nb^n, and regular expressions can't)
16:17:56 <elliott> ais523: I suspect you can do a^nb^nc^n with the same stuff you use to do nested parens
16:18:10 <ais523> elliott: you can't, nested parens can be done by a PDA, a^nb^nc^n can't
16:18:11 <invariable> elliott, when you say ^n you just mean repeating N times - right?
16:18:23 <ais523> invariable: yes, but the point is that it's the same n for each of them
16:18:23 <elliott> invariable: all Ns must be the same
16:18:33 <elliott> ais523: hmm, well you can do something similar: let a be (, b be (, and c be ))
16:18:35 <ais523> so aabbcc matches but aabbccc doesn't
16:18:41 <ais523> elliott: that checks that a+b = c
16:18:41 <elliott> then c's n must be a's n plus b's n divided by two
16:18:58 <elliott> ais523: which is close but not exact
16:19:03 <invariable> elliott, ah - so your defining N by the first pattern. I thought N was fixed.
16:19:06 <ais523> aha, I think you might be able to do it via zero-width assertions
16:19:08 <elliott> ais523: now, if you can somehow localise the checking that a and b are the same
16:19:17 <ais523> you could check that a+b = 2c and that a=b
16:19:21 <elliott> ais523: then that becomes a+a = b+b = 2c, and thus -- yup
16:19:28 <elliott> and thus 2a = 2b = 2c, ergo a=b=c
16:21:57 <oerjan> Ilari: ah, "An example of this phenomena is the complexity of Type Inference in ML which was shown. to be complete for EXPTIME in [HM]."
16:22:44 <elliott> ais523: I'm thinking you'd treat a as (, b as [ (just like ( but a different char), and c as ))
16:22:52 <Ilari> Ah, that's between context-sensitive and recursive.
16:22:58 <ais523> elliott: that doesn't work
16:23:11 <oerjan> Ilari: although i don't think it is known whether EXPTIME is larger than PSPACE so that _might_ not actually be an example
16:23:14 <ais523> a as (, b as [, c as [)
16:24:03 <oerjan> although the general beliefs would imply that it is
16:24:22 <elliott> ais523: right, i meant c as ))
16:24:28 <elliott> and b would be treated as ( for that stage
16:24:37 <ais523> that still doesn't prove that a=b, at all
16:24:49 <elliott> ais523: well, you'd do the first part by treating a as ( and b as )
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16:25:20 <oerjan> Ilari: anything EXPSPACE-complete will certainly work, however
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16:25:36 -!- cheater00 has joined.
16:26:06 <oerjan> Ilari: "An example of an EXPSPACE-complete problem is the problem of recognizing whether two regular expressions represent different languages, ..."
16:27:29 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
16:30:16 <ais523> /^$|^(?=(?<x>a(?&x)?b)c+$)a+(?<y>b(?&y)?c)$/
16:30:20 <ais523> that took a bit of working out
16:30:23 <Ilari> Yes, PSPACE is strict subset of EXPSPACE, so EXPSPACE-complete problems are not in PSPACE.
16:30:23 <j-invariant> elliott: "Is it possible to write bug free programs in haskell" reply: "why would you want to do that"
16:30:27 <ais523> it could be golfed from there, I was trying to keep it readable
16:30:31 <elliott> j-invariant: I agree; who said that?
16:30:36 <elliott> ais523: now do it in cyclexa
16:30:46 * ais523 tries to remember Cyclexa syntax
16:31:08 <ais523> assuming I've remembered what : does correctly
16:31:19 <ais523> there is definitely an operator that does that, I might just have got the wrong character
16:31:20 <j-invariant> elliott: somone said " you can give formal proof your behavior" and I asked how and he said he didn't know
16:31:35 <elliott> j-invariant: Writing a bug-free program -- as in *writing* one -- is far, *far* more trouble than it is worth. Writing a buggy program, and then iteratively improving it, is far more productive and practical, 80% of the time, IMO.
16:31:40 <ais523> the Cyclex'as much simpler
16:31:47 <elliott> Of course formal verification is useful often, especially for data structure libraries and the like.
16:31:52 <elliott> XMonad has a few components formally proven, I believe.
16:31:56 <oerjan> Ilari: to be precise every context-sensitive language is in PSPACE, and some PSPACE-complete problems are, although not all since needing linear memory is not closed under polymial reductions
16:31:59 <ais523> as it has a "parse trees are equal" assertion
16:32:10 <j-invariant> "bug free software is by definition trivial"
16:32:18 <oerjan> *problems are context-sensitive
16:32:53 <ais523> elliott: the compilers I'm creating as part of my PhD are formally proven
16:32:59 <ais523> mostly because the proofs are more interesting than the compilers
16:32:59 <invariable> that reminds me of the famous knuth quote: "I have only proved this correct ...."
16:33:05 <ais523> in fact, they exist only in proof form atm
16:33:15 <ais523> and it isn't executable
16:33:16 <invariable> ais523, where are you doing your PhD ?
16:33:17 * oerjan thinks if he keeps adding *-corrections deciphering them might end up being NP-complete
16:33:29 <ais523> invariable: Birmingham University
16:33:30 <elliott> invariable: birmingham! ok i swear i will stop answering people's questions for them some day
16:33:54 <ais523> to be fair, you didn't answer my question for me
16:33:57 <ais523> because I'd already answered
16:33:59 <elliott> ais523: I typed it slowly to seem less creepy
16:34:04 <elliott> oerjan: I don't see why you'd think that
16:34:29 <j-invariant> elliott: anyone the sense I get form #haskell is don't bother writing correct programs
16:34:32 <ais523> oh look, P==NP has been proven again
16:34:40 <j-invariant> elliott: since they don't exist, your an idiot if you want a program that works, etc .
16:34:43 <ais523> I'd be more excited if P==NP and P!=NP weren't proved so often
16:34:44 <invariable> ais523, some day... :-) what is your thesis on?
16:34:46 <elliott> j-invariant: I don't agree.
16:35:06 <ais523> invariable: compiling software to hardware, via type systems
16:35:12 <elliott> j-invariant: But I believe writing mostly-correct programs and then iteratively improving them is far, far more productive in many, many cases than writing programs that are correct the first time.
16:35:18 <j-invariant> ais523: I don't know why so many people care, probably just because there is money on it
16:35:30 <elliott> because it's an important problem
16:35:32 <ais523> j-invariant: also because it's a really irritating problem, in a sense
16:35:32 <j-invariant> ais523: Nobody gave a shit with the BQP thing that was recently proved
16:35:37 <j-invariant> elliott: you're an important interesting problem
16:35:40 <ais523> if P does != NP, there's no obvious way to prove it at all
16:35:56 <ais523> I'd say the details of the proof would be more interesting than that for, say, Fermat's Last Theorem
16:36:00 <j-invariant> it's like "Hey im a complexity theorist when people prove HUGE resuts in the field"
16:36:15 <elliott> scott aaronson cares about everything!
16:36:22 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
16:36:26 <elliott> [[When people want to emphasize how pathetically far we are from proving P≠NP, they often use the following argument: for godsakes, we can’t even prove that NEXP-complete problems aren’t solvable by depth-3, polynomial-size circuits consisting entirely of mod 6 gates!
16:36:33 <ais523> at least the latest P == NP result is an algorithm for 3-SAT that actually has source available, so errors should be quite easy to find
16:36:39 <j-invariant> ais523: isn't that just because you understand computation much deeper than modular forms?
16:37:03 <j-invariant> personally, I know fine well that when it's proved I will not be able to understand a single word
16:37:12 <elliott> are there any interesting theorems that depend on fermat's last? :D
16:37:16 <j-invariant> I would have to spend decades studying this stuff to get to that level
16:37:21 <elliott> it seems completely useless, off the top of my head
16:37:28 <oerjan> ais523: the nice thing about P=NP proofs with algorithms is that it's easy to test them on actual hard cases
16:37:45 <elliott> oerjan: "Now we're just waiting for the A(G64,G64) constant to run out."
16:37:56 <ais523> ah, Slashdot has worked it out already, apparently it doesn't work in all cases
16:38:06 <ais523> so it's just an algorithm for solving special cases of 3SAT, which obviously doesn't prove P=NP
16:38:30 <elliott> ais523: slashdot, the home of complexity theorists
16:38:50 <ais523> elliott: the thing I love about Slashdot is, whatever the story, there will be exactly one comment by someone who really knows what they're doing that explains the whole thing
16:39:00 <ais523> and it's worth putting up with the other 500 or so comments of nonsense just to find that one
16:39:21 <ais523> (more than one person who knows what's really going on often reads Slashdot, but once one completely correct explanation is posted, the others don't bother)
16:39:27 <elliott> Sgeo will be so sad, Stargate Universe has been cancelled
16:40:12 <quintopia> elliott: it was an opinion of his obviously...i was asking for alternate opinions
16:40:14 <elliott> ais523: I'm surprised there isn't some super-secret invite-only version of Slashdot for just the people who post those kinds of comments :P (okay, not *very* surprised)
16:40:29 <elliott> quintopia: um i think it's a stupid opinion, everyone already has an IP address now, to some approximation
16:40:30 <ais523> elliott: the same people are the people who post all the junk on other stories, though
16:40:42 <elliott> you think making the two separate computers in your house have different IP addresses will change anything?
16:40:46 <ais523> elliott: that's obviously incorrect, there are more people in the world than there are IPv4 addresses
16:40:56 <elliott> ignoring things like Qatar's country-wide NAT, because they're edge-cases
16:40:58 <ais523> scary thought, isn't it?
16:40:59 <elliott> ais523: I mean people on the Internet
16:41:17 <ais523> now I'm wondering how Qatar /does/ NAT a whole country
16:41:23 <quintopia> elliott: i agree. but it can't be denied that there is some influence at work in the world to make piracy more difficult
16:41:27 <ais523> surely sometimes they have more than 65535 people trying to connect at once?
16:41:44 <elliott> quintopia: nice conspiracy, but IPv6 has been around for a LONG time
16:41:50 <elliott> before piracy fighting became the hot thing...
16:42:06 <elliott> RFC 2460 was published in 1998
16:42:08 <quintopia> this is not about IPv6. this is about anonymous proxies
16:42:15 <elliott> you said it in the context of ipv6
16:42:17 <ais523> what is this opinion? IPv4 being deliberately limited in order to prevent people torrenting?
16:42:28 <elliott> anyway, it is impossible to block all anonymous proxies
16:42:32 <coppro> IPv4 is far older than torrenting
16:42:33 <quintopia> well, i meant it as a completely different discussion
16:42:34 <elliott> because setting one up is trivial
16:42:47 <elliott> 13:25:00 <quintopia> the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss
16:42:47 <elliott> 13:26:00 <j-invariant> quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode
16:42:54 <ais523> coppro: I know, but elliott implied that it was a stupid opinion, and I was trying to think up a suitably stupid opinion that fit in the context of the conversation
16:42:57 <elliott> first line is wrong, second line is wrong
16:43:10 <ais523> elliott: second line is arguably sarcasm
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16:43:24 <quintopia> the first line is also the opinion of the friend i disagree with
16:43:27 <ais523> there were only two lines
16:43:33 <elliott> quintopia: your friend is stupid :D
16:43:42 <elliott> <elliott> 13:25:00 <quintopia> the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss
16:43:42 <elliott> <elliott> 13:26:00 <j-invariant> quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode
16:43:42 <elliott> <elliott> 13:26:11 <fizzie> Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays.
16:43:51 <ais523> something seems wrong with your copy/paste
16:44:00 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> 13:25:00 <quintopia> the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss
16:44:00 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> 13:26:00 <j-invariant> quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode
16:44:00 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> 13:26:11 <fizzie> Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays.
16:44:13 <elliott> ais523: you have some ignore or something
16:44:33 <ais523> elliott: herobrine only saw three
16:44:46 <ais523> and it's (4) that I'm missing
16:44:48 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:44:51 <elliott> umm i wonder if i have some script that's broken
16:44:59 <elliott> * *** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding
16:45:17 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> 13:25:00 <quintopia> the day everyone has their own IPv6 address is the end of the road for privacy. discuss
16:45:20 <elliott> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
16:45:24 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> 13:26:00 <j-invariant> quintopia: yeah might as well tattoo everyone with a barcode
16:45:26 <ais523> it makes more sense than the several minutes of fakelag that flooding used to give you
16:45:27 <elliott> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
16:45:31 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> 13:26:11 <fizzie> Yes, just like everyone with just a single computer at home (with a single IP address) has no privacy nowadays.
16:45:34 <elliott> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
16:45:38 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> 13:29:10 <quintopia> friend of mine says there will be nowhere on earth that will legally allow anonymous proxies
16:45:40 <elliott> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
16:46:01 <ais523> the last one seems a little implausible just due to the instability of various countries
16:46:11 <ais523> Somalia is actually an anarchy IIRC, it legally allows anything because there are no laws
16:46:18 <elliott> no, somalia has a government now i think
16:46:37 <ais523> I think its populace would certainly want a government, at least
16:46:37 <elliott> ais523: also, that's a strange interpretation; it (was/is) locally ruled by mobs
16:46:45 <ais523> anarchy tends not to work too well in practice
16:46:52 <ais523> elliott: indeed, that's what happens in an anarchy
16:46:57 <ais523> I wouldn't call that law, though
16:47:07 <elliott> ais523: you're strawmanning anarchy here
16:47:11 <elliott> Somalia has never been an anarchy
16:47:26 <elliott> ais523: it's like telling a socialist "hey, go and live in soviet russia LOL if you think that's so great LOL"
16:47:28 <ais523> at what point does a mob become a government?
16:47:36 <elliott> when it eliminates all the other mobs
16:49:59 <ais523> going in the other direction, at what point does a government become a mob?
16:50:16 <ais523> ooh, idea: you know how you treated B Nomic as an esolang a while ago?
16:50:22 <ais523> I wonder if you could do that with real-world governments
16:50:22 <elliott> ais523: when other mobs appear that manage to override its power in some cases
16:50:39 <elliott> ais523: (arguably, governments are just a certain /type/ of mob, and so they never cease to be one)
16:53:38 <ais523> also, Duke Nukem Forever now has a specific release date (May 3)
16:54:05 <oerjan> afair the "mobs" in somalia weren't without law, it's just that their law is an even-more-than-average fucked up version of sharia
16:54:16 <elliott> right, somalia wasn't lawless, just fractured
16:54:31 <oerjan> (i.e. punishing women for _being_ raped)
16:54:42 <elliott> there _was_ that thing about their market being so free that they had the absolute lowest SMS prices in the world, but that's not quite worth the rest of the situation there :)
16:54:54 <elliott> (and also ignores all the /downsides/ of a totally unrestricted economy)
16:55:29 <elliott> I can't believe that in the US it costs to _receive_ a text message
16:55:55 <quintopia> i think that model is going out of style elliott
16:56:24 <ais523> in the UK, it never costs to receive a call or text
16:56:44 <ais523> except when the other person explicitly reverses the charges, in which case the operator phones you up and asks if you're willing to accept a reverse charge call
16:56:56 <quintopia> in the US, wireless companies are trolls and milk you for whatever money they can get
16:57:28 <ais523> (or in a few cases like the one we have at home, where in addition to our normal phone number, we have a reverse charge phone number where we pay for anyone phoning it; it's stupidly long to prevent anyone guessing it, and exists so that I can call home via payphones in emergencies)
16:57:51 <elliott> ais523: Couldn't you just reverse the charges in the normal way?
16:57:54 <ais523> elliott: in the UK it's less than in the US because there's lots of competition, although instead of giving people good deals, the wireless companies mostly just try to confuse the hell out of everyone
16:58:02 <elliott> I don't actually know how that works here though
16:58:08 <ais523> you have to contact the operator and ask
16:58:16 <ais523> and with an operator involves, things get more expensive
16:58:26 <elliott> Yeah, but it's for /emergencies/ :P
16:58:32 <ais523> I used to regularly phone home reverse-charge from school, not for emergencies at all
16:58:39 <ais523> the reverse-charge number was my usual method of contact
16:58:44 <ais523> because I didn't have a mobile, and didn't want one
16:59:03 <ais523> the number still works AFAIK, but I hardly ever end up needing to use a payphone nowadays, mostly because most of them no longer exist
16:59:16 <ais523> but I've needed to a couple of times in emergencies, and typed in the whole number and it still works
16:59:27 <ais523> (the number starts 0800, so it works from payphones too)
16:59:29 <elliott> So what is it, 0123456789876543210?
16:59:44 <ais523> nah, it's 23 digits long
16:59:57 <ais523> and at that length, unlikely to be guessed
17:00:25 <ais523> (the first 10 are the same for all reverse charge numbers, though, and follow a pattern; the other 13 provide the entropy)
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17:02:45 <elliott> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01/20/2028252/Facebook-Images-To-Get-Expiration-Date err, no thank you
17:03:03 <elliott> prediction: X-Pire will never be implemented for Linux
17:03:04 <j-invariant> SECURITY EXCEPTION: Please type in your mothers madien name:
17:03:16 <elliott> causing Linux to be useless on Facebook (OK, this one is a stretch, it does not appear to be associated with facebook at all)
17:03:32 <ais523> wow that's a pretty stupid idea
17:03:39 <ais523> what's to stop people just saving the key with the image?
17:03:48 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
17:03:48 <elliott> ais523: worse is the Slashdot-quality reporting, which suggests that it's in any way affiliated with Facebook
17:04:03 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:04:14 <ais523> what I assumed that would mean would be that facebook would automatically delete images after a while
17:04:23 <j-invariant> elliott: what the hell that makes no sense
17:04:35 <ais523> which would actually be useful, but which would never happen because facebook users probably use it for the purpose of keeping the photos around forever
17:04:43 <elliott> It's not cryptography, it's CRYPTOLOGY! Like cryptography but less scientific!
17:04:48 <j-invariant> unless the "date" is actually a password that comes from facebook.org
17:04:50 <elliott> We used astrological measurements to invent the scheme!
17:05:18 <ais523> IIRC the Artemis Fowl books needed something like that for plot reasons, they invented a sort of virus that physically lived on the bits, being copied along with them, and degraded them over time
17:05:26 <elliott> ais523: thus solving piracy!
17:05:28 <ais523> which is good enough for fiction, I suppose
17:05:35 <ais523> and more plausible than most of the DRM schemes people come up with
17:06:02 <quintopia> sounds like something from discworld...
17:06:05 <ais523> at least it isn't obviously completely broken, the only problem is the physical impossibility because bits don't work like that
17:06:38 <elliott> but what happens if you use the analogue hole :)
17:06:41 <elliott> does it INFECT the result?
17:07:24 <ais523> elliott: the character in the book used the analog hole specifically to get a permanent copy before it degraded completely
17:07:28 <elliott> ais523: you're a pope, ais523
17:07:35 <elliott> G. is asking you if you're ready
17:07:47 <ais523> I should look up what that means
17:08:08 <j-invariant> Viewing these images requires the free X-Pire browser add-on. Currently only a version that works with Firefox is available. Those without the viewer will be unable to see any protected image.
17:08:08 <elliott> I wonder if you're a dictator
17:08:18 <j-invariant> how are these people able to call themselves "researchers"??
17:08:38 <ais523> in the book, the virus was used in order to transmit a message without the source being traceable, the idea being that the analog hole would save the video, but not the source information
17:08:47 <ais523> j-invariant: you can do research into engineering, I suppose
17:08:58 <j-invariant> ais523: it's not a research problem to write a stupid little plugin :/
17:09:11 <ais523> the research is probably the DRM algo
17:09:14 <j-invariant> this makes zero sense, they are using "research" to sound authoratative
17:09:22 <elliott> plenty of research involves engineering to demonstrate its effectiveness
17:09:22 <ais523> and the plugin just an implementation
17:09:35 <ais523> like in my PhD where the research is the algos for contructing the compiler, and the engineering is the compiler itself
17:09:46 <ais523> OK, that spam is pointless
17:09:47 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I vaguely recall that virus thing (I read the books, but many years ago)
17:09:56 <ais523> subject: xvff85; content: wq5
17:11:27 <ais523> hmm, the pope rules still don't actually do anythign
17:12:13 <ais523> also, I think I'm platonically ready
17:12:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
17:12:30 <ais523> popes are defined to be ready, that's what G. was referring to
17:12:55 <elliott> we have a policy that we are ready
17:13:11 <elliott> hmm, I think I'm going to read every single log of #esoteric, in order, from the first day to the last
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17:14:01 <j-invariant> to be brutally honest, I don't *beleive* in timing attacks
17:14:24 <elliott> your belief is incorrect... depending on your definition of timing attacks
17:14:32 -!- pumpkin has joined.
17:14:37 <ais523> elliott: got a copy of the Vladivostok Telephone DIrectory handy, btw?
17:14:49 <j-invariant> oh wait a second TCP timing attack makes sense
17:15:02 <ais523> j-invariant: don't believe they can work? don't believe they exist? don't believe they're useful?
17:15:06 <ais523> don't believe anyone tries them?
17:15:13 <elliott> ais523: http://www.nomer.org/vladivostok/
17:15:14 <j-invariant> ais523: I did not belive anyone uses them successfully
17:15:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:15:53 <ais523> elliott: it's now a requirement (not just a SHOULD) to read the vladivostok telephone directory in the first week of February
17:15:59 <ais523> because people were getting bored a couple of months ago
17:15:59 <j-invariant> if something takes 34 microseconds that means what? You would have to know my CPU and how much other stuff I was computing at the same time etc
17:16:14 <elliott> ais523: hmm, can I NoV you for that?
17:16:19 <ais523> perhaps we should change it back before the first week of February actually happens
17:16:34 <ais523> elliott: oh, I'm going to find a few phone numbers in Vladivostok and read those, it's close enough
17:16:39 <ais523> also, you should NoV Yally, e's the Pariah
17:16:49 <elliott> ais523: very insufficient, also, what does pariah do again?
17:17:06 <ais523> pariah wins if e goes long enough without accumulating Rests
17:17:09 <ais523> the idea is that everyone picks on them
17:17:18 <ais523> for even really minor rules breaches
17:17:30 <elliott> then i'll just NoV everyone
17:17:42 <ais523> you can't, NoVs are rate-limited
17:17:45 <elliott> (IMO, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that you obtained and read the Vladivostok telephone directory :))
17:18:04 <ais523> elliott: except it isn't, the burden of proof is on the judge
17:18:12 <ais523> or, well, the person bringing the NoV, indiretly
17:18:20 <elliott> oh, I just mean that I'm not going to bother to /ask/ anyone before NoVing them
17:19:27 <ais523> hmm, this one's shorter: http://pozvoni.net.ua/eng/yadro/179
17:19:38 <ais523> and has a funky sidebar
17:20:10 <quintopia> i'm glad i am not participating in this nomic
17:20:38 <ais523> it isn't normally, just people were getting bored
17:21:10 <elliott> quintopia: but it's the longest-running Nomic by far!
17:21:19 <elliott> in fact, it's heading towards its 18th birthday
17:21:25 <elliott> although i wonder if it won't almost die before then
17:22:11 <quintopia> surely it's had winners in that time...
17:24:07 <elliott> quintopia: winning doesn't end the game
17:24:26 <ais523> I've won over ten times now, I think
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17:26:01 <elliott> 05.10.20: Lisp/Scheme program text
17:26:39 <elliott> we also have java, pascal and c++ programs as logs
17:27:01 <ais523> file(1) is pretty bad at identifying programming languages
17:27:50 <elliott> Hey, cpressey was here in '05.
17:28:14 <elliott> 12:42:06 <GregorR-L> Where's {^Raven^} :P
17:28:15 <elliott> 12:42:17 <GregorR-L> Whatever happened to {^Raven^}...
17:28:15 <elliott> 12:42:37 <Robdgreat> nevermore.
17:28:22 <elliott> 12:43:31 <GregorR-L> Maybe the two working ones exploded :-P
17:29:34 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember when I joined #esoteric
17:29:42 <ais523> I know I was active on the wiki first, and found the channel via the wiki
17:31:05 <elliott> 07.01.15:09:15:34 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric
17:31:05 <elliott> 07.01.15:09:16:16 <ais523> So there are people on #esoteric at the moment after all, then? I was monitoring the logs to see if anyone was online, but somehow I never seem to be online at the same time as other people...
17:31:10 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:31:19 <ais523> <bjourne> There are no 800 pound gorillas. Very obese gorillas held in captivity may top out at 600 lbs at most. A healthy, strong, alpha gorilla out in the wild would weigh no more than 350-400 lbs. 800 pound gorillas are pure fantasy.
17:31:22 <elliott> can i be the channel's official archivist, that would be nice
17:31:39 <ais523> elliott: ah, that hostname brings back memories
17:31:51 <elliott> 12:58:02 <EgoBot> ^AACTION is not!^A
17:31:58 <elliott> (those are literal ^As in the log)
17:32:09 <ais523> also, I've been here just over three years, it feels like longer
17:33:10 -!- invariable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:33:13 <ais523> in other news, the video formats war is getting steadily more ridiculous
17:33:25 <elliott> 05:21:54 <ihope> I did Bitwise Cyclic Tag in Excel.
17:33:25 <elliott> 05:22:09 <ihope> And I don't mean a macro or anything.
17:33:26 <elliott> 05:22:21 <oklopol> with cell arithmetic?
17:33:27 <ais523> Microsoft released a plugin for Firefox on Windows that makes it do H.264 in the <video> tag
17:33:40 <ais523> elliott: it's doable with cell arithmetic, in both Excel and Works
17:33:55 <elliott> ais523: here's the standard Loper OS Malcontent Contrarian Opinion on the video format wars for you: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309
17:34:09 <ais523> I used to spend a lot of time finding things on my Windows computer that were programmable, the lack of any sensible programming languages meant I couldn't use them
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17:34:14 <elliott> worth a read but strangley irritating, like all loper posts :)
17:34:26 <ais523> wow, that one didn't try to set a cookie
17:35:00 <elliott> doesn't seem to have any tracking
17:35:36 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:35:48 <ais523> hmm, that blog is seriously advocating shipping executables rather than videos
17:35:55 <elliott> ais523: wait, "that blog"?
17:35:57 <elliott> _surely_ you know of Loper OS
17:35:59 -!- variable has joined.
17:36:29 <ais523> hmm, that's like the way my mother argues
17:36:42 <elliott> well because i link to the blog constantly and because it's been talked about at length in here
17:36:53 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's contrariness or disbelief
17:37:09 <elliott> Loper is the standard vapourware Lisp Machine revival OS with orthogonal persistence and all that
17:37:13 <ais523> elliott: well, that shows how rarely I click on links
17:37:21 <elliott> stanislav's our friend even if he is a bit barmy :)
17:37:42 <elliott> ais523: FWIW, he's basically right, if you consider it in the context of the rest of Loper
17:37:51 <ais523> elliott: Stallman would never agree to it
17:37:53 <elliott> in that the programs being shipped would be S-Expressions
17:38:02 <elliott> ais523: no, he isn't advocating shipping binaries
17:38:04 <ais523> he's been going on a crusade against closed-source JavaScript on webpages recently
17:38:07 <elliott> ais523: he's advocating shipping source which is executed directly
17:38:11 <ais523> on the basis that it's running on his computer
17:38:25 <elliott> ais523: Loper is an OS on top of a Lisp CPU emulated in x86-64, essentially
17:38:44 <elliott> ais523: what he's saying is more: the ability to access objects over the network transparently
17:38:56 <elliott> it's just that, obviously, objects can execute code
17:39:00 <ais523> this reminds me of my concept of an OS where everything is a function, even the files on disk
17:39:16 <ais523> so you have self-decompressing files that are indistinguishable from the unrolled version
17:39:22 <ais523> I think it'd be a security nightmare, though
17:39:39 <ais523> as if transparency was done properly, you could have, say, a file that expired a month later
17:39:45 <ais523> (although it could be copied up to that point)
17:39:46 <elliott> ais523: why a function? that's irrelevant to the concept
17:39:50 <ais523> or a file that was different on Tuesdays
17:39:55 <ais523> elliott: in the sense that it's opaque
17:39:57 <elliott> in fact, none of the lines you said make any sense at all, pretty much
17:40:00 <ais523> you can feed it arguments to get return values
17:40:05 <ais523> but you can't do anything else
17:40:27 <elliott> ais523: that's stupid, any decent os lets you view the code of functions
17:40:44 <ais523> elliott: it's obviously stupid, I didn't say it was a /good/ idea
17:40:46 <elliott> hmm, I'm going to mention the words "orthogonal persistence" now, and ais523 won't know what it means
17:40:49 <ais523> just that it was an idea
17:40:54 <ais523> elliott: yes I will, because you used to go on about it a lot
17:41:06 <ais523> I'm not sure if it was in that context or another one
17:41:11 <ais523> elliott: I haven't heard you go on about it recently
17:41:17 <elliott> I go on about @ all the time
17:41:22 <ais523> probably just missing each other online, or whatever
17:41:29 <ais523> you haven't even mentioned @ all that often
17:41:29 * elliott is still trying to process the fact that ais523 doesn't know what Loper is
17:41:46 <ais523> it didn't take you long to explain
17:41:47 <elliott> ais523: umm, do you know what LoseThos is?
17:41:59 <elliott> also, maybe not, but even Vorpal has read I think most of the posts :)
17:42:02 <ais523> it's an operating system, I forget the details beyond there
17:42:06 <elliott> *maybe not [take long to explain],
17:42:12 <elliott> you knew about LoseThos and not Loper
17:42:12 <ais523> I think I maybe knew what it was once
17:43:11 <elliott> that OS I managed to install once, yes!
17:43:39 <elliott> ais523: year-old proggit submission of the Loper OS blog: "Loper OS: every layer of abstraction by anyone else is crap"
17:43:43 <ais523> elliott: how many OSes are there which are large enough to be used by more than, say, 10 people, and that you've never installed?
17:43:58 <elliott> ais523: are there any OSes used by more than 10 people and less than a thousand?
17:44:06 <elliott> general-purpose ones, I mean
17:44:12 <ais523> is Plan 9 used by 1000 people?
17:44:28 <ais523> I have no idea how big it is
17:44:34 <elliott> it runs on supercomputers and did ...something at the 2000 olympics
17:44:42 <elliott> ok, one supercomputer, but it's IBM's
17:44:51 <elliott> and that probably has a lot of users
17:44:59 <elliott> the mailing list is fairly active
17:45:06 <elliott> let's say a few hundred users of plan 9, then
17:45:26 <elliott> memetech.com is still down :/
17:45:30 <j-invariant> I need strength not to rejoin haskell another day
17:45:57 <pumpkin> j-invariant: I can ban you if you need help :)
17:46:09 <elliott> YES BAN HIM BAN HIM FOREVER BAN HIM WITH FIRE MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
17:46:36 <elliott> ais523: fwiw, @'s "ideal" model of How The Web Should Be is similar to that blog post :)
17:46:53 <elliott> ais523: in that, it's as simple as "you can transparently access objects over a network and they're cached locally"
17:46:58 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:47:07 <elliott> ais523: and then you'd have some kind of standard "document" type which can include hyperlinks to objects
17:47:13 <elliott> and also include other objects (such as images)
17:47:18 <elliott> you wouldn't even need that type locally
17:47:24 <elliott> since it'd come with the page, so to speak
17:47:37 <ais523> that wouldn't be the web, then, it'd be something else
17:47:41 <elliott> you could link to anything, even, say, an application (although @ has little concept of that)
17:47:47 <elliott> ais523: it wouldn't be The Web, but it'd be a Web
17:47:59 <elliott> ais523: heck, it's closer to the original conception of the Web than The Web is
17:48:09 <elliott> hyperlinked documents and resourecs
17:48:21 <elliott> oh, disturbingly, this'd actually do java web start /correctly/
17:48:21 <ais523> wasn't the original concept of the web to host FAQs to stop people repeatedly emailing duplicate questions?
17:48:31 <elliott> in that, you could just link to, say, a game
17:48:42 <ais523> elliott: the real problem with java web start is that it requires people who don't know what they're doing to do something that people who do know what they're doing repeatedly tell them not to do
17:48:44 <elliott> ais523: er, no, not that I am aware of
17:48:55 <elliott> it started out as research
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17:49:07 <elliott> ais523: ok, managed to parse that :)
17:49:08 <ais523> elliott: well, suppose I send you a .jnlp link
17:49:20 <elliott> ais523: with @, every single thing runs in a total sandbox, pretty much
17:49:20 <ais523> in theory it's completely safe to download and run it
17:49:27 <pumpkin> j-invariant: that isn't an implication that I want you banned or not to return, by the way :P I don't think you should leave. But if you really don't want to return, I can help with that
17:49:44 <elliott> ais523: you can do this without it being a usability nightmare, because it doesn't share the stupid filesystem concept that holds back everything else's security
17:50:14 -!- aloril_ has joined.
17:50:17 <elliott> ais523: a random program being able to edit some other data you own, in @, is equivalent to, say, an OS that lets you run the C code "*0x834 = 9;"
17:50:21 <ais523> elliott: what to people use in order to store and find the equivalent of files?
17:50:29 <elliott> ais523: you don't, you just store objects
17:50:35 <ais523> I mean, how do you find them?
17:50:42 <elliott> ais523: by having an indexer run over them
17:50:48 <elliott> ais523: or by organising them into lists and sets
17:50:52 <elliott> ais523: or by organising them into lists and sets
17:50:58 <ais523> that's probably a little better
17:51:03 <elliott> what's wrong with indexing
17:51:11 <ais523> it assumes that the files in question have useful content
17:51:28 <elliott> you would store an image as an Image object
17:52:07 <ais523> but I mean, suppose I want to start writing a paper for a journal, and I haven't worked out what content I want yet, but the journal demands a particular format for submissions
17:52:16 <ais523> so I start off by creating a document that has that format, but no content
17:52:29 <ais523> how would an indexer know what that was meant to be, unless I told it explicitly?
17:52:42 <elliott> ais523: just title it that?
17:53:01 <elliott> ais523: I mean, you could even have a command "describe-object"
17:53:04 <ais523> but then it might get muddled with different documents that did have the content, but not the formatting
17:53:05 <elliott> so you'd do the equivalent of the Emacs:
17:53:16 <elliott> M-x describe-object RET journal paper 2010
17:53:33 <elliott> (if you say "but i can't think of a good name", well, what would you call the _file_? this doesn't introduce any new problems)
17:54:13 <ais523> what I'd normally do would be to organise things hierarchically, i.e. on a normal filesystem I'd have a directory that held together everything related to the subject
17:54:29 <elliott> say the subject was frobnicating
17:54:34 <ais523> and the start of the paper would just have a meaningless name like "paper" because the rest of the system gave the context
17:54:39 <elliott> I'd do "M-x describe-object RET frobnicating paper"
17:54:45 <elliott> ais523: sure, you could easily do that
17:54:57 <ais523> elliott: hmm, that goes at odds with your own opinions from a while ago
17:55:04 <elliott> ais523: just have a set object filled with pointers to relevant objects
17:55:11 <elliott> ais523: well, I'm trying to tell you how the system could work in the way you want it
17:55:13 <ais523> you said that you thought keyword-based systems were bad for web browser bookmarks
17:55:27 <elliott> ais523: this isn't keyword-based, it'd store the text you enter raw
17:55:32 <ais523> and preferred a relatively flat hierarchy
17:55:39 <elliott> ais523: I do, but evidently you don't
17:55:51 <elliott> and we're talking about how you'd use it, I believe
17:55:52 <ais523> elliott: it's /effectively/ keyword-based, as that's how you'd search the system
17:56:00 <ais523> elliott: actually, for web browsers, I just memorise URLs
17:56:18 <elliott> ais523: not really, you could easily stick a set called "relevant stuff" somewhere and e.g. have a pointer to the frobnicating set there
17:56:29 <ais523> and bookmark things only if I rarely access them
17:56:32 <elliott> ais523: this is effectively a regular filesystem but much much more flexible
17:56:35 <ais523> sort-of the other way round from most people
17:56:35 <elliott> because objects aren't "inside" directories
17:56:38 <elliott> directories are just sets of pointers
17:56:47 <ais523> elliott: hmm, didn't we discuss something like that for plan 10?
17:57:04 <elliott> ais523: plan 10 is just the implementor's wimpmode of @ times a billion
17:57:11 <ais523> besides, directories are just sets of pointers even on UNIX
17:57:13 <Ilari> http://inetcore.com/project/ipv4ec/en-us/index.html ... Allocation threshold fun (IANA hasn't allocated yet...)
17:57:28 <ais523> that's how hardlinks work
17:57:30 <elliott> ais523: (consider that @ implementation is currently blocked due to some very difficult compiler research)
17:57:40 <elliott> also, sure, but it's a pain to do things like this in unix :)
17:57:49 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if UNIX would be better if it were designed to work well with pervasive hardlinking?
17:58:01 <elliott> ais523: (as in, more research has to be done before I can know how to implement @ well)
17:58:13 <ais523> elliott: but my PHD's about something else
17:58:26 <elliott> ais523: well, that's your fault!
17:58:29 <ais523> (note: this is probably irrelevant)
17:59:35 <elliott> ais523: so clearly, your phd should be about lazy specialisers
17:59:48 <elliott> or if you want to do /my/ part of the job for me as well, lazy, parallel specialisers
18:00:03 <ais523> elliott: at least you'll be able to compile it into hardware when you're finished!
18:01:14 <elliott> 09:45:05 <ais523> Yes, I'm enjoying esolangs. I enjoyed the logs, too, before I had access to an IRC client.
18:01:29 * elliott tries to figure out what ais523-y reason made ais523 unable to obtain an IRC client
18:01:40 <ais523> elliott: to be precise, there was an IRC client installed, I just wasn't aware of it
18:01:45 <elliott> also, /me freaks out at the capitalisation
18:02:02 <ais523> anyway, /you/ try finding an IRC client for SunOS in 2007
18:02:17 <elliott> (related anecdote: I am pretty sure I once caused a friend to start using uppercase letters in IM, and then they /never stopped/ and have stayed like that ever since)
18:02:39 <ais523> also, we weren't allowed to install software on the machine, typical dangerous-executables stuff
18:02:45 <elliott> (this is more interesting when you consider that it seems to have unified /all/ their styles of textual messaging)
18:02:47 <ais523> although I compiled C-INTERCAL from source there
18:02:58 <elliott> ais523: couldn't you just write an irc client in perl or something?
18:03:15 <ais523> I wasn't aware that the format was so simple
18:03:20 <ais523> or of Perl's existence
18:03:27 <elliott> ...also, you didn't know perl existed in 2007?
18:03:40 <ais523> elliott: I'd spent my whole life on Windows
18:03:49 <ais523> and had pretty much got completely sick of it
18:03:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> also, maybe not, but even Vorpal has read I think most of the posts :) <-- yep, they are interesting though sometimes a bit ... hateful against the rest of the world? No not the right words but I can't think of any better.
18:03:57 <elliott> well, ok, but if you compiled C-INTERCAL... although i guess that was later on
18:04:00 <ais523> I found out I had a login on a SunOS box, as did everyone else, but I decided to actually use it
18:04:17 <Vorpal> elliott, ah yes that would fit it very well
18:04:22 <ais523> so I went and learnt UNIX, and preferred it to Windows
18:04:34 <elliott> I hope Loper and @ are engaged in bitter OS wars two decades from now
18:04:35 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how many other people here used UNIX before Linux?
18:04:59 <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: got a copy of the Vladivostok Telephone DIrectory handy, btw? <-- hey agora still remembers that?
18:05:06 <elliott> I started using Linux in late 2005 or early 2006
18:05:09 <elliott> oerjan: see, you should come back!
18:05:10 <ais523> then I tried to get an Internet connection, which I did via guessing names of browsers
18:05:21 <elliott> ais523: did you not know about ls?
18:05:31 <Vorpal> <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: got a copy of the Vladivostok Telephone DIrectory handy, btw? <-- hey agora still remembers that? <-- ???
18:05:32 <ais523> I did know about ls, but didn't realise you could point it at /usr/bin
18:05:45 <elliott> ais523: Windows brain damage at its finest.
18:05:54 <ais523> or indeed, that /usr/bin existed
18:06:02 <elliott> it would have been better if you thought /usr/bin existed, but was special
18:06:07 <elliott> like trying to do dir "Control Panel" in Windows
18:06:32 <ais523> oerjan: rule 1750/4: The first Agoran week each year which falls entirely in February is known as Read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory Week. During this time, Agorans SHALL read the Vladivostok Telephone Directory.
18:06:46 <elliott> hmm, is read the ruleset week gone?
18:06:51 <ais523> elliott: that actually works, it's just that its name is really messed up
18:06:51 <elliott> or is that in addition to?
18:07:24 <ais523> anyway, a bit of web searching seems to imply that Vladivostok doesn't actually /have/ a telephone directory
18:07:24 <Vorpal> ais523, did the guessing word?
18:07:42 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, "netscape" was the first one I found
18:07:45 <ais523> also, a really old version
18:07:55 <Vorpal> ais523, hah. It must have been ages ago to find that
18:07:57 <ais523> it once blanked the main page talk on Wikipedia
18:08:00 <Vorpal> ais523, on a *linux* system
18:08:04 <ais523> it just hadn't been updated since
18:08:13 <ais523> was Netscape ever released for Linux?
18:08:18 <ais523> (note: SunOS was obsolete in 2007)
18:08:31 <Vorpal> ais523, I think I used it back on redhat 5
18:08:34 <elliott> sunos was obsolete in 2007, ORLY
18:08:39 <pikhq> It used to be part of distros until Mozilla became usable.
18:09:04 <ais523> elliott: it was replaced by Solaris in 1992
18:09:14 <ais523> and end-of-lined in 1994
18:09:21 <ais523> according to Wikipedia, at least
18:09:27 <pikhq> And later versions were still offered for Linux just because there was no point in *not*.
18:09:31 <elliott> i remember talking to you when you were on SunOS/CDE, you're less weird now!
18:09:40 <pikhq> (take Mozilla, add a few patches, compile, and you've got Netscape)
18:09:49 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> yay CDE
18:09:53 <elliott> first time anyone has ever said that
18:10:08 <ais523> elliott: well, I only used xterms on it
18:10:14 <ais523> but it was nice having more than one up at a time
18:10:26 <pikhq> Ah, the *classic* use of X11: fancy terminal multiplexer.
18:10:27 <ais523> and the file manager, the one time I opened it by mistake, didn't look too awful
18:10:35 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure how to open it deliberately
18:11:23 <elliott> wow, oerjan only came in here in 2006
18:11:26 <ais523> elliott: imagine that the only way you have to open applications is something that looks and behaves vaguely like an OS X-style Dock, except it's completely inconsistent with everything and makes no sense
18:11:32 <elliott> 06.06.08:10:42:07 <lament> is Oerjan Johansen here?
18:11:32 <elliott> 06.06.12:12:33:20 <GregorR> Oerjan rawx 8-D
18:11:32 <elliott> 06.06.12:16:38:33 --- join: oerjan (n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
18:11:43 <elliott> ais523: so, OS X's Dock, then
18:12:02 <ais523> elliott: imagine each icon actually refers to more than one program
18:12:19 <Gregor> elliott: Why did I say that if it was his first time in the channel? :P
18:12:36 <ais523> and sometimes it opens a second copy Windows quick-launch style, rather than acting Dock-style
18:12:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:12:41 <elliott> Gregor: Because he improved your glass. Page.
18:12:50 <Gregor> Who are the active users who are longer-term than me? lament (if he's to be considered active), ais523, ...?
18:12:57 <elliott> ais523 came in here in 2007
18:13:10 <elliott> lament is not even vaguely active. fizzie has been here for 2002, but only re-activated recently.
18:13:21 <elliott> So fizzie, despite being here all this time, is basically a returning oldbie :P
18:13:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:13:51 <Gregor> jix is never active ...
18:14:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:14:09 <elliott> 05.05.02:18:56:58 --- join: GregorR (~GregorR@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net) joined #esoteric
18:14:09 <elliott> 05.05.02:18:57:28 <GregorR> Does anybody want to try out my combination of BrainFuck and CoreWars? Essentially, you have two BrainFuckish programs running concurrently, and their data space is the opponent's program space.
18:14:10 <elliott> 05.05.02:18:57:41 <GregorR> The objective being to crash the opponent.
18:14:18 <elliott> so, now I have to list every name before 2005
18:14:24 <elliott> and we can pick out the active ones
18:14:28 <Gregor> I totally do not want to be the longest-term person ...
18:14:40 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Ah, the *classic* use of X11: fancy terminal multiplexer. <
18:14:52 <Vorpal> *<-- hey I use it that mostly
18:14:53 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: We were just discussing whether he's still "active"
18:14:58 <Vorpal> that and a handful of GUI programs
18:15:11 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: Or whether the fact that he was away for a long time makes him not really long-term (although I was too X-P )
18:15:29 <ais523> hmm, Gregor originally came here to advertise FYB?
18:15:41 <ais523> how old is EgoBot, btw?
18:15:58 <elliott> Gregor: OK, I've got the list up :P
18:16:02 <Gregor> I wrote it to one-up calamari, who doesn't get to count as active.
18:16:16 <Gregor> elliott: Up ... where?
18:16:41 <elliott> Well, catseye is there, which is cpressey, who came back for a while earlier.
18:16:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, I'm curious as to what made you question fizzie's current activeness.
18:16:56 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: He didn't.
18:17:11 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: We were trying to decide whether it's continuous activeness or current activeness that counts.
18:17:13 <elliott> Gregor: dbc, he counts as active just because.
18:17:24 <Gregor> lol, I don't think he does :P
18:17:25 <elliott> fizzie is indeed on the list, obviously.
18:18:02 <oklopol> elliott was just linking some oklo from the olden days not so long ago
18:18:09 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:18:10 <elliott> Gregor: hcf is there, he was in here a whole once, to say that clog was here now
18:18:16 <oklopol> yeah i do recall why i came
18:18:21 <ais523> hmm, what are there more of, regular esolangers or pointless BF derivatives?
18:18:37 <ais523> elliott: what did you correct?
18:18:42 <ais523> I meant, people who studied esolangs
18:18:43 <elliott> Gregor: hmm "It`s_Puzzlet", I think puzzlet is lifthrasiir
18:18:43 <oklopol> i listed 50 bf derivatives once
18:18:49 <ais523> I didn't mean the esolangs themselves
18:18:56 <elliott> ais523: latter then I'd say
18:19:05 <elliott> Gregor: but lifthrasiir isn't too active :P
18:19:15 <elliott> Gregor: KEYMAKER AND KIPPLE THEY ARE VERY ACTIVE
18:19:23 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: I'm comparing two integers
18:19:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: they're both numbers
18:19:39 <elliott> Gregor: mooz and mtve... :P
18:19:40 <oklopol> integers form a complete lattice
18:19:49 <Gregor> elliott: Shaddap with totally inactive names X-P
18:20:07 <elliott> And nooga definitely counts as active, just not super-active :P
18:20:16 <elliott> hahaha this is so shameful for Gregor
18:20:19 <elliott> i think he has to kill himself now
18:20:21 <Gregor> How is it possible that I'm so long-term and I don't have any sort of operator privileges on the channel X-P
18:20:32 <elliott> Gregor: It's because you're really, really gay.
18:20:44 <Gregor> elliott: That's like the prerequisite for ops.
18:20:47 <elliott> Gregor: Also, by that logic nooga should be an op :P
18:20:53 <oerjan> <ais523> hmm, I wonder how many other people here used UNIX before Linux? <-- me definitely since i first used it back in '91-92 or so
18:20:58 <ais523> hmm, I actually admire this channel for not spontaneously giving me op privileges
18:21:04 <ais523> it seems to happen all too often these days
18:21:11 <elliott> ais523: the problem with giving you op privileges is that you'd use them even less than our other ops
18:21:26 <elliott> oerjan is currently on my naughty-list for disturbing the peaceful anarchy of the channel by banning shutup :D
18:21:27 <ais523> elliott: hey, I have used op privileges before
18:21:37 <oklopol> i used to have op privileges on ##algorithms or something
18:21:45 <elliott> ais523: it's not like we really need ops here, though
18:21:51 <ais523> banning spambots on #nomic (one #, on slashnet); and I once banned a troll from #interhcak
18:22:16 <elliott> ais523: the only time I'm aware of that they've actually helped here, other than banning spambots, was when Quadrescence and dixon hogged up the channel with trolling for an entire day
18:22:18 <Gregor> nooga: OH COME ON PLEAAAAAAAAAASE SAY SOMETHING D-8
18:22:25 <elliott> And Quad got unbanned the next day :P
18:22:47 <oklopol> Gregor: just wait a few years and i'll have been here longer than you
18:22:58 <elliott> in retrospect that wasn't even necessary, as communal readings of the Funge-98 spec do just a good job of getting rid of trolls
18:23:01 <ais523> oklopol: I don't think timespans work like that
18:23:01 <Gregor> oklopol: ... that ... follows logically ...
18:23:11 <elliott> i guess it's cpressey's calming influence
18:23:14 <Gregor> Unless I leave in a huff RIGHT NOW.
18:23:14 <elliott> oklopol: and when I'm older than you...
18:23:15 <oerjan> <Vorpal> <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: got a copy of the Vladivostok Telephone DIrectory handy, btw? <-- hey agora still remembers that? <-- ??? <-- it was an _old_ famous scam from the nomic preceding agora. in fact i think it referred to the 1957 phonebook or thereabouts
18:23:21 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:23:23 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> in retrospect that wasn't even necessary, as communal readings of the Funge-98 spec do just a good job of getting rid of trolls
18:23:24 <HackEgo> 273) <elliott> in retrospect that wasn't even necessary, as communal readings of the Funge-98 spec do just a good job of getting rid of trolls
18:23:38 <elliott> ais523: now you'll never be an op, you just endorsed rabid flooding!
18:23:48 <elliott> ais523: admittedly, of on-topic material
18:23:49 <ais523> that's not flooding, it's ontopic!
18:23:55 <oklopol> this one time elliott told me the funge 98 language is sooooooooooooooooooooooo complicated
18:24:00 <ais523> I know I got in trouble once for trying to learn python via bsmnt_bot
18:24:04 <Phantom__Hoover> <Gregor> elliott: That's like the prerequisite for ops. ← fizzie isn't gay, although now that you come to mention it lament *does* have a girl's name.
18:24:05 <ais523> even though I was writing a BF interp
18:24:10 <elliott> we should print out the funge-98 spec, to use as a doorstop
18:24:22 <ais523> it would make a pretty poor doorstop, it isn't long enough
18:24:24 <elliott> fizzie could be female and gay
18:24:32 <elliott> her hair is very long, after all!
18:24:40 <elliott> ais523: it is if you print it in 72pt type
18:24:46 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, well, the photos of him don't exactly contradict that...
18:24:52 <ais523> elliott: heh, I was about to mention 72pt
18:25:04 <ais523> it's the largest font size in existence, obviously, because the dropdown boxes in Windows don't go higher
18:25:05 <Gregor> Now "Gregor" on the other hand.
18:25:08 <oklopol> my dad's also called heikki
18:25:11 <elliott> ais523: nuh uh, some of them go to 96
18:25:17 <ais523> some go much higher than that
18:25:24 <ais523> I think so they can advertise super-large font sizes
18:25:35 <ais523> (note: all these boxes just let you type arbitrary numbers in if you double-single-click them)
18:25:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: she's his dad, obvs finland has a large transgender population
18:25:51 <elliott> ais523: you can't just use NUMBERS like that!
18:25:56 <ais523> there's a racing driver called heikki, who is also male
18:25:58 <elliott> Whoa, pasky ... I wonder if that's the same pasky as in git pasky ...
18:25:59 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: well i'm not completely sure about that, but i'm rather sure he's male
18:26:07 <ais523> elliott: alternatively, select it and hold down control-] (in Word)
18:26:21 <elliott> Gregor: {^Raven^}, very active
18:27:04 <elliott> 04.08.15:19:48:25 --- join: sbp (sbp@vorpal.notabug.com) joined #esoteric
18:27:04 <elliott> 04.08.15:19:48:31 --- part: sbp left #esoteric
18:27:16 <elliott> oklopol: it's from Jabberwocky
18:27:22 <elliott> Vorpal has just stolen it and ruined the poem for us forever
18:27:29 <elliott> because we can never again read it without being reminded of him
18:27:44 <ais523> elliott: how did your hyperignore filter not ignore that line?
18:27:46 <elliott> Gregor: Two months earlier, he was quoted:
18:27:47 <elliott> 04.06.09:14:58:59 <deltab> 215723Z #esp <sbp> http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~sdh300/stuffage/bf.net/
18:27:47 <elliott> 04.06.09:14:58:59 <deltab> 215733Z #esp <sbp> best bit: [[[
18:27:49 <ais523> because it decided it was being used as a word?
18:27:51 <elliott> 04.06.09:15:00:43 <deltab> 220014Z #esp <sbp> hello #esoteric
18:27:54 <elliott> Maybe it took him two months to decide to join :P
18:27:59 <elliott> ais523: because I disabled it
18:28:06 <elliott> ais523: Vorpal isn't on ignore, anyway
18:28:09 <Phantom__Hoover> Did I mention that someone should totally make a language that naturally works on TMs?
18:28:15 <elliott> also, I /wrote/ that line, how could I ignore it?
18:28:17 <ais523> hmm, I'm going to get dinner
18:28:41 <ais523> I'll be back in a while (maybe over an hour); and although I'll leave the IRC client running, this connection is unreliable and I'll be surprised if I'm still connected by the time I get back
18:28:46 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover: what does that mean
18:28:49 <elliott> Gregor: sexygirl153 was here before you
18:28:56 <Gregor> elliott: No, that's me.
18:29:08 <elliott> Who HAS TALKED IN HERE IN THE PAST CENTURY.
18:29:44 <elliott> cal153: I even grepped the logs to verify!
18:29:49 <elliott> You HAVE INDEED talked in the past century.
18:29:58 <cal153> iamcal = cal153 = sexygirl153
18:29:58 <Phantom__Hoover> oklopol, erm. That you could convert it into a TM without a thick abstraction layer.
18:30:01 <elliott> cal153: now, say 15 more lines, and you count as active enough for Gregor
18:30:02 -!- oklopol has changed nick to okl043.
18:30:06 <elliott> and therefore have superiority over him
18:30:29 <Phantom__Hoover> Vulgar version: you could write a compiler for it without tearing your hair out.
18:30:29 <elliott> slava. I wonder if it's /that/ slava
18:30:51 <okl043> Phantom__Hoover: you can directly compile brainfuck to tm
18:30:51 <elliott> Your line is SHOWING ITS LEGS!
18:30:57 <okl043> but you don't get all tm's this way
18:31:41 <impomatic> `addquote <testing> `addquote <testing123> Hmmm...
18:31:42 <HackEgo> 274) <testing> `addquote <testing123> Hmmm...
18:31:49 <Gregor> (Vulgar means "in the language of the common people")
18:32:08 <HackEgo> 34) <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
18:32:12 <Gregor> (Where "common people" is taken to mean "those inferiors")
18:32:20 <HackEgo> 42) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
18:33:32 <oerjan> <oklopol> integers form a complete lattice <-- um, i see no top or bottom
18:33:47 <okl043> oerjan: that was implied
18:33:52 -!- okl043 has changed nick to oklopol.
18:34:10 <oklopol> that i meant the extended integers
18:34:45 <oklopol> implied by "<oklopol> that i meant the extended integers", that is
18:34:51 <elliott> theory, cal153 is actually mars
18:36:52 <HackEgo> 273) I wonder how the numbering system works.
18:37:08 <HackEgo> 92) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
18:37:26 <cal153> i post every 779.96 days. you have discovered my secret
18:37:44 <Phantom__Hoover> (I really hope that the Ed apollo is referring to is Ed MacPherson.)
18:38:04 <elliott> OK, Adhamhahnajhnahnjanhanhanhn.
18:38:12 <elliott> How do you pronounce that name anyway?
18:38:42 -!- variable has joined.
18:38:49 <Phantom__Hoover> It's the CamelCase in "MacPherson" which annoys me: I've never seen it done that way. Ever.
18:39:35 <quintopia> considering that "Mac" is the prefix for "son of" and "Pherson" is the real name...
18:39:47 <fizzie> elliott: (As I've probably mentioned before) I keep getting ads from this German place (from where I bought a used laptop once) addressed to "Frau Kallasjoki", perhaps because "Heike" is a German female given name.
18:40:37 <oerjan> <Phantom__Hoover> [...] although now that you come to mention it lament *does* have a girl's name. <-- nikita isn't a female name in russian. or at least not primarily. i suspect something got lost in translation when it became popular in the west.
18:40:40 <oklopol> oerjan: also actually A(4, 4) is larger than any other integer, i learned this the other day when i was reading about this algo, it had complexity O(n a^-1(n)) = O(n a^-1(4))
18:41:06 <quintopia> everyone in the west wanted their daughters named after kruschev
18:41:09 <Gregor> ... surnames with multiple capital letters annoy Phantom__Hoover.
18:41:14 <quintopia> TO PROVE HOW NOT COMMUNIST THEY WERE
18:41:34 <elliott> Gregor: But Phantom__Hoover's name is a McFoo.
18:41:48 <oerjan> <elliott> Heikki, it's like, Helen! <-- incidentally "Kari" is a male name in finnish and a female one in norwegian
18:42:03 <elliott> or should I say Mr(s). Kari
18:42:14 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> oerjan: also actually A(4, 4) is larger than any other integer, i learned this the other day when i was reading about this algo, it had complexity O(n a^-1(n)) = O(n a^-1(4))
18:42:15 <HackEgo> 273) <oklopol> oerjan: also actually A(4, 4) is larger than any other integer, i learned this the other day when i was reading about this algo, it had complexity O(n a^-1(n)) = O(n a^-1(4))
18:42:27 <HackEgo> 229) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal> elliott, sure why not
18:42:28 <HackEgo> 251) <Goosey> I can play crysis, but not minecraft?
18:42:30 <HackEgo> 164) <cheater99> you don't have an urethra, you're a girl.
18:42:33 <HackEgo> 222) <pikhq> Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work.
18:42:47 <elliott> that was insufficient quotes HackEgo
18:42:59 <oklopol> actually it was sufficient quotes
18:43:06 <HackEgo> 59) <Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
18:43:10 <HackEgo> 159) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
18:43:11 <HackEgo> 119) <ais523> theory: some amused deity is making the laws of physics up as they go along
18:43:12 <HackEgo> 175) <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
18:43:17 <elliott> ais523: is this throttling thing new?
18:43:35 <HackEgo> 30) <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
18:43:36 <HackEgo> 41) <Dylan> kaelis: yes kaelis, but however will get the horses to wear knickers?
18:43:51 <HackEgo> 272) <elliott> in retrospect that wasn't even necessary, as communal readings of the Funge-98 spec do just a good job of getting rid of trolls
18:44:19 <HackEgo> 209) <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
18:44:26 <HackEgo> 236) <Vorpal> (had real world issues) <Vorpal> (to deal with) <ehird> Vorpal's pregnant. <Vorpal> yes
18:44:30 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/vg/zee1.ogg Hey guys I'm linking this 'cuz it's actually used in ZEE now durpadurp.
18:44:39 <elliott> Gregor: Zee pirates are invaoeisjgdflkfgpdtsref
18:46:08 <Gregor> oklopol: No, not that one :P
18:46:24 <Gregor> oklopol: ZEE is an eternally-stalled game I'm eternally making.
18:46:31 <elliott> this is the worst song and Gregor is the worst person ever
18:46:37 <elliott> just kidding i hate Gregor's soul and children
18:47:08 <elliott> ugh where is that stupid language
18:47:14 <oerjan> <okl043> oerjan: that was implied <-- O KAY
18:47:17 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: Actually yes :P
18:47:21 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: But more eternally-stalled
18:47:43 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: The fact that it needs crazydata.
18:47:59 <Gregor> oklopol: http://codu.org/projects/zee/
18:48:31 <Gregor> ... -Enhance-Extrapolate
18:48:36 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's the correct music
18:48:45 <oklopol> by zoom i meant is it the thing
18:49:00 <oklopol> that you talked about when we were young
18:50:25 <Sgeo> elliott, that was random
18:50:38 <oklopol> hey speaking of young, some kinds asked me to buy some tobacco for them and i did, and then they were all likd "wow that guy's coool" when i told them i don't need their money
18:51:06 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> hey speaking of young, some kinds asked me to buy some tobacco for them and i did, and then they were all likd "wow that guy's coool" when i told them i don't need their money
18:51:07 <HackEgo> 274) <oklopol> hey speaking of young, some kinds asked me to buy some tobacco for them and i did, and then they were all likd "wow that guy's coool" when i told them i don't need their money
18:51:08 <Sgeo> Claiming Stargate Universe was cancelled
18:51:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Syfy announced on December 16, 2010 that it would not be picking Stargate Universe up for a third season and that the Spring 2011 season would be the last to air on its channel.[6] There has been no word from MGM Television on this decision.
18:51:26 <oklopol> (i mean i actually heard them say that behind my back)
18:51:33 <fizzie> oklopol: You sure know how to make friends.
18:51:52 <elliott> the great thing is, one day we will all get oklopol arrested after he does something really, really terrible
18:51:58 <elliott> but until then we're just gonna laugh at pat him on the back
18:52:22 <elliott> like say oklopol have you raped anyone yet
18:52:45 <fizzie> "But I'm working on it"?
18:52:57 <Gregor> oklopol: Have you stopped raping people in the park yet?
18:53:10 <oklopol> Gregor: i don't recall stopping that, now
18:53:57 <oklopol> is buying kids tobacco bad? that was like my good deed for the day
18:54:04 <oklopol> i felt so good helping those kids
18:54:05 <quintopia> oklopol: have you reported your violence issues around children to the authorities?
18:54:50 <elliott> ais523: do you know if i can set ubuntu to install all updates automatically? i'm weird lik ethat
18:55:22 <oerjan> <oklopol> is buying kids tobacco bad? that was like my good deed for the day <-- oh no that's fine, the world needs all the help against overpopulation it can get
18:55:44 * elliott makes note to self - stay away from oerjan - murderer
18:55:56 <Sgeo> elliott, supposedly, the producers are looking for a way to keep it going
18:55:57 <Gregor> oerjan: This is also why we need more gays.
18:56:11 <elliott> Sgeo: That's because they really, really hate everyone.
18:56:12 <oklopol> yeah i also turned one of those boys gay
18:56:23 <elliott> "You're not going to escape our shitty show! MWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAA"
18:56:50 <quintopia> Gregor: easy way to ensure that is to discover which babies are at high risk for heterosexuality and smother them
18:57:09 <quintopia> infanticide has a long historical tradition of being effective population control
18:57:17 <elliott> or just have gay sex with everyone from a young age... uh
18:58:16 <quintopia> the first link in the topic is Herobrine's logs, yes?
18:58:41 <elliott> i'm only tampering with them if you believe I am
18:58:56 <elliott> mostly because editing http://208.78.103.223/2011-01-21.txt sounds like an exercise in pain!
18:59:25 <elliott> i'm going to import the clog logs into irc format sometime
18:59:32 <elliott> so that you can view all the past logs in formatted, UTC glory
18:59:33 <oerjan> elliott: NEEDS MOAR COLOR
18:59:46 <elliott> oerjan: Design suggestions welcome and likely to be ignored :P
19:00:26 <oerjan> i'm just nostalgic for old ircbrowse, is all. although not its speed.
19:00:50 <Gregor> This may come across a little bit effeminate, but cold whether does horrible things to my skin >_>
19:01:20 <elliott> Gregor: It destroys your FABULOSITY!
19:01:24 <oerjan> oh and maybe linkifying. not that irssi does that anyway.
19:01:27 <elliott> oerjan: we all miss ircbrowse :(
19:01:53 <elliott> oerjan: in my defence: http://sprunge.us/Cjff
19:02:03 <elliott> oerjan: editing this code is a real bitch because it's a horrible hack :D
19:02:10 <elliott> (yes, that /is/ the worst implementation of HTTP ever)
19:02:53 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: No. I have the beginnings of one level, and the engine is mostly in place ... data = difficult.
19:02:54 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
19:02:59 <quintopia> gregor: it came across as idiotic, as anyone unable to spell "weather" must be
19:03:02 <Gregor> Basically I've resigned myself to getting all the data myself ...
19:03:14 <elliott> Gregor is both gay and stupid
19:03:33 <Gregor> I've been confusing a lot of homonyms recently ... as in, in the last couple years ...
19:03:36 <oklopol> Gregor is doing zee completely wrong, he's going to have actual pictures in it
19:03:43 <elliott> Gregor: It's Gaylzheimer's.
19:03:52 <elliott> It happens to people who are gay, because they are bad people and hate God.
19:03:54 <quintopia> Gregor: same problem, but at least i notice and correct myself immediately :P
19:04:04 <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid
19:04:30 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: The idea is to find clues to solve mysteries within images, with the further caveat being that the "campaign" will have a running mystery through it, so there could be clues to either the mystery at-hand, or more global things.
19:04:39 <elliott> why are we talking about programming
19:04:46 <elliott> we can all go home now folks
19:04:49 <quintopia> `addquote <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid
19:04:50 -!- elliott has left (?).
19:04:52 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: Basically, within an image, you zoom in, "enhance" to get better quality, then sometimes "extrapolate" to look through reflections etc.
19:04:58 <HackEgo> 275) <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid
19:05:00 -!- elliott has joined.
19:05:09 <oklopol> Gregor: wait, there's more than one pic?
19:05:27 <oklopol> elliott: haha everyone was inside him on sunday
19:05:28 <elliott> OK, we can just talk about functional programming
19:05:29 <Gregor> oklopol: There's one starting-point picture per "case"
19:05:32 <Phantom__Hoover> (His sun supposedly dated Haskell Curry's daughter, which is completely crazy.)
19:05:33 <elliott> LC derivatives are OK, imperative languages are not
19:05:39 <Gregor> oklopol: And that can lead (via reflections etc) to other pictures.
19:05:44 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Yeah who has their own private sun?
19:05:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Also: BEST GENETIC PAIRING EVER
19:05:58 <oklopol> Gregor: okay one per case is maybe k
19:06:10 <quintopia> elliott: also, we can talk about the entscheidunsproblem since church basically proved that too (and first, yes?)
19:06:21 <ais523> wow, I am still connected as well
19:06:39 <Sgeo> elliott, I am learning Go.
19:06:39 <elliott> quintopia: I think so, so yes
19:06:51 <impomatic> Anyone have an idea how a functional programming game might work?
19:06:59 <elliott> impomatic: me and oerjan designed one once!
19:07:02 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: do you know if i can set ubuntu to install all updates automatically? i'm weird like that <-- there's a GUI setting for just security updates, but nothing's preventing you sticking an aptitude update aptitude upgrade in one of the startup scripts
19:07:05 <elliott> the idea was to predict elements of your opponent's list
19:07:09 <elliott> it was actually quite cool
19:07:12 <elliott> oerjan: <elliott> the idea was to predict elements of your opponent's list
19:07:20 <elliott> there was something about recognising your own function too but that sounds lamer
19:07:43 <oklopol> predict elements on your opponent's list how?
19:07:43 <elliott> impomatic: no, it was in-channel, if oerjan wakes up he'll remember some of it probably
19:07:49 <elliott> oklopol: i forget, I implemented it once
19:07:55 <elliott> it was like... ugh i forget
19:08:10 <impomatic> This is the only functional programming game I'm aware of http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Papers/strugman.ps.gz
19:08:38 <elliott> ours was cool, help me wake oerjan up
19:08:53 <oklopol> i bet it was not actually very cool
19:08:54 <elliott> impomatic: it was a program-battling game obviously
19:08:57 <elliott> but i suppose you know that
19:09:10 <quintopia> 1) make sure your functional language is implemented on a program stack, 2) make the stack circular so the top of one stack grows towards the bottom of the other stack, and 3) see who can smash the other player's stack to their own purposes first. >_>
19:09:30 <ais523> then that's not really functional
19:10:43 <oklopol> poop your fucking ASS i'm a poop!
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19:11:06 <oklopol> i haven't been on the computer like all week
19:11:19 <oklopol> i don't think i can ever leave again
19:11:43 <Sgeo> elliott, so, I decided that the one true language is Java.
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19:12:16 <oklopol> elliott: i played a game of freecell just now
19:12:24 <elliott> oklopol: you cannot get free...from your cell
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19:12:36 <ais523> oklopol: which version?
19:12:36 <oklopol> elliott: yesterday, i ate some pizza
19:12:37 <Sgeo> ais523, I was trying to get a reaction from elliott
19:12:41 <ais523> the one that comes with Windows?
19:12:50 <oerjan> elliott: you had a function, which got either itself or an opponent's function as argument, and your task was to determine which it was
19:13:00 <ais523> apparently, freecell accepts -1 as a puzzle number, and it's impossible
19:13:04 <elliott> oerjan: the one involving lazy lists
19:13:12 <elliott> oerjan: and it was like, mutual or something
19:13:13 <ais523> everyone likes undocumented features!
19:13:23 <oklopol> ais523: which freecell? this?
19:13:43 <oklopol> elliott: btw, there's a mat on the floor, but my feet are not touching it as it is a bit too far away
19:14:01 <Sgeo> Does that mean it's impossible to play Freecell off the computer, if there are unwinnable configurations?
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19:14:24 <elliott> oerjan: do you remember itttttttttttttttt
19:14:35 <oklopol> yeah Sgeo i didn't quite catch that either
19:15:07 <Sgeo> If sometimes it's impossible to win Freecell, that means, if you''re not on a computer, sometimes you'll have unwinnable games?
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19:15:31 <oklopol> Sgeo: have you an idea what the game is?
19:15:31 * oerjan doesn't remember the list version
19:16:05 <quintopia> sgeo: you're saying that the computer selects games that are guaranteed winnable?
19:16:47 <Sgeo> "All of the 32,000 Microsoft deals except for number 11982 are solvable."
19:16:58 <oklopol> so basically they made them manually
19:17:07 <oklopol> and had every game checked a few times
19:17:08 <oerjan> <ais523> apparently, freecell accepts -1 as a puzzle number, and it's impossible <-- there is also exactly one or... what Sgeo said
19:17:26 <ais523> oerjan: yes, I knew there was exactly one of the main 32000 that was impossible, but I wasn't sure which
19:17:53 <ais523> I suspect Freecell games are overwhelmingly likely to be possible, and 11982 was just chance
19:18:00 <ais523> (whereas -1 was deliberately selected to be impossible)
19:18:06 <oklopol> was just going to say what ais523 said
19:18:07 <ais523> quintopia: Solitaire on Windows doesn't have puzzle numbers
19:18:20 <ais523> (and has more than a 1/32000 chance of being impossible)
19:18:25 <oklopol> solitaire is usually not winnable
19:18:35 <oklopol> or i have completely misunderstood it
19:18:45 <ais523> klondike is winnable more often than not if you don't have a restriction on how many times through the deck you can go
19:19:11 <oklopol> winnable as in, there is a winning strategy?
19:19:21 <oklopol> that is, is there a computer program that usually wins
19:19:23 <ais523> as in some sequence of moves wins
19:19:42 <oerjan> solitaire is not perfect information like freecell is
19:19:46 <ais523> normally, the move sequence is reasonably obvious though, so I imagine a computer program could get above 50-50 with infinite deck recycle
19:19:55 <ais523> oerjan: *klondike, there are loads of versions of solitaire
19:20:07 <oklopol> and solitaire is also a synonym for klondike
19:20:07 <ais523> and aisleriot, the Linux version of solitaire, has loads of them
19:20:11 <ais523> I used to like playing Gold Mine
19:20:37 <quintopia> the windows klondike program is just called "solitaire" ... so i blame microsoft for that
19:20:45 <oerjan> ais523: well i meant the windows included game
19:20:51 <quintopia> the linux standard "solitaire" lets you pick the game rules
19:22:31 <ais523> I'm not sure if aisleriot is gnome or cross-toolkit
19:22:34 <fizzie> I don't think there's any "standard" solitaire. (The GnomeGames version is called "Aisleriot", it does "over eight different" variants.)
19:22:36 <ais523> but it does more than just let you pick the rules
19:22:44 <ais523> fizzie: "over eight"? it's a lot more than that
19:23:22 <fizzie> Shouldn't have been all "oh that bit is so short I won't bother actually copy-pasting for a quote".
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19:23:29 <quintopia> fizzie: standard as in "ubiquitous"
19:23:40 <fizzie> KDE's definitely not "ubiquitous" either.
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19:24:17 <quintopia> fizzie: but for folks using it, kpatience is more likely than any other solitaire
19:24:32 <quintopia> aka, it is ubiquitous among kde users
19:24:44 <fizzie> Welllll, maybe, but most you can say is it's the "KDE standard solitaire", not "Linux standard".
19:25:22 <Phantom__Hoover> It's the Windows solitaire, so that makes it far more widespread.
19:25:29 <quintopia> which is that microsoft decided that solitaire and klondike are synonymous
19:25:33 <fizzie> Yes, I just wanted to nitpick.
19:25:38 <ais523> also, Gnome is probably more popular than KDE at the moment because of Ubuntu
19:25:57 <quintopia> ais523: i wouldn't downplay the presence of kubuntu
19:26:16 <quintopia> seems to be very thriving from what i can tell
19:26:18 <fizzie> "Everything from favorites like Freecell and Klondike through to the hopelessly pointless Clock Patience."; the last sounds so very enticing.
19:26:26 <fizzie> "This is a game of zero skill and is a purely mechanical process. The chances of winning are 1 in 13."
19:26:52 <ais523> fizzie: I've seen people play Clock Patience in RL, with a real pack of cards
19:26:55 <oerjan> <quintopia> which is that microsoft decided that solitaire and klondike are synonymous <-- obviously that's just history - it was once the _only_ solitaire game included with windows
19:27:05 <ais523> and yes, the chance of winning is exactly 1 in 13, and you only have one legal move at each turn
19:27:18 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe some sort of a card fetishist could have fun doing it.
19:27:53 <fizzie> I used to know one "only one legal move" sort of a "game" too, though it was more complicated than that.
19:28:16 <fizzie> All the sheep in Scotland are black.
19:28:30 <oerjan> <ais523> fizzie: I've seen people play Clock Patience in RL, with a real pack of cards <-- i'm pretty sure i've done it :D
19:29:13 <Gregor> I had to look it up to see what it actually is.
19:29:18 <Gregor> "Hopelessly pointless" indeed.
19:29:46 <fizzie> Wikipedia's "solitaire card games" list isn't indexed by metadata like "shape of playfield", I can't find that one I used to know.
19:30:11 <oklopol> "<ais523> fizzie: I've seen people play Clock Patience in RL, with a real pack of cards" <<< i used to
19:31:17 <oklopol> so maybe it's a game for those who like mathematics
19:32:43 <ais523> it might be for people who are used to really interesting and difficult problems just wanting to do something mindless
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19:33:00 <oerjan> I TAKE THAT EXPLANATION
19:33:06 <elliott> ais523: ever played Valentine?
19:33:07 <oklopol> well that's why i'm here right now
19:33:42 <ais523> and this is probably a bad moment
19:34:02 <oklopol> irc makes me incredibly stupid, i just go completely numb from the neck up
19:34:32 <elliott> Valentine is like Clock Patience, but worse
19:34:33 <oklopol> maybe i should sleep at some point, and not come here tomorrow
19:34:38 <elliott> a game takes about two hours, afaik it's impossible to lose
19:35:09 <elliott> after playing it, your head is all funny for ages because it's just so numbed
19:35:34 <oklopol> today, i walked in a circle for a bit over an hour in this mall kinda thing
19:35:49 <oklopol> was waiting for someone, and realized i enjoy walking more than sitting
19:35:56 <ais523> oklopol: I've done that
19:36:21 <oklopol> i don't think i've done it in a mall, but otherwise i always walk in a circle
19:36:48 <ais523> 8 makes you less dizzy
19:37:07 <ais523> I tend not to use circles, but rather long meandering patterns that go to each of the boundaries of the area in which people might be expected to meat me
19:37:11 <oklopol> well it doesn't make me feel like i need to unwind the rotations
19:37:32 <oklopol> ais523: i need something highly repetitive or i can't think
19:37:52 <oklopol> well, of course occasionally i play the observation game called life and look at what people are doing
19:38:19 <oklopol> in which case i use more random pattenrs
19:38:20 <ais523> I do much of my thinking at bus shelters, often
19:38:26 <ais523> when I'm walking back and forth, mostly
19:38:36 <ais523> and people sitting in the bus shelter wonder why I'm walking back and forth in the rain
19:39:13 <oklopol> but i get lots of stuff done in the bus too
19:39:13 <ais523> it depends on the type of rain, really, some is nice than others
19:39:24 <oklopol> actually i just proved a theorem in the bus last week
19:39:31 <oklopol> i haven't used one this week except today
19:39:49 <oklopol> (it was a neat theorem, too)
19:40:05 <oklopol> i like all rain in theory, but i don't always want to get wet
19:40:18 <oklopol> my feet smell bad enough as is
19:40:20 <ais523> last night I was trying to sleep and thought about random stuff to try to get to sleep
19:40:26 <oklopol> quintopia 2WDFA = 2WNFA = RLG
19:40:26 <ais523> and realised I pronounced f and ph differently
19:40:28 <quintopia> and whose umbrella do you steal when you don't want to get wet
19:40:33 <ais523> although only with a very small difference
19:41:07 <oklopol> quintopia: it's obvious of course, the reason it's neat is that it fits really nicely in my framework, and is a converse to a theorem in HoFL
19:41:40 <oklopol> RLG is a class of picture languages, let L be a regular language over \Delta, and for all d \in \Delta, let L_d be a regular language
19:42:21 <oklopol> (L, (L_d)_{d \in \Delta}) defines a picture language by taking words from L, and substituting words from the languages corresponding to the letters, and making them the columns of the picture
19:42:27 <oklopol> picture = matrix over finite alphabet
19:42:49 <oklopol> also the theorem is "CDFA = CNFA = RLG"
19:43:23 <oklopol> CXFA is a class that just restricts automata of type X to only walk in a comb-like pattern on the picture, so that spikes go down
19:43:42 <oklopol> so yeah, it's pretty obvious if you know 2-way AFA give regular languages in the word case
19:44:19 <quintopia> ...this is much further than i went in automata theory actually
19:44:32 <oklopol> well there are like 7 researches in picture language theory in the world
19:45:02 <Gregor> <stan_man_can> can you return objects in JS?
19:45:06 * Gregor bashes his head into a wall.
19:45:10 <oklopol> that's not very deep, that's the languages of words such that there exists an alternating finite automata that can move left and right, that accepts exactly those words
19:45:11 <quintopia> maybe. i got DFA=NFA=regular languages. don't think i ever saw 2-way AFA
19:45:39 <oklopol> but they are more intuitive to program in
19:45:48 <oklopol> you can do function calls for instance
19:46:38 <oklopol> with DFA and NFA, you can't really do shit
19:46:51 <oklopol> when running on a more complicated graph
19:47:02 <oklopol> for instance tree-walking NFA are strictly weaker than regular tree languages
19:47:05 <elliott> dfa/nfa are for expert regex programmers
19:47:16 <oklopol> and NFA on pictures are incredibly stupid
19:47:50 <elliott> oklopol: regexps are nfas/dfas, i think with backrefs they are ndfas? or something
19:47:52 <oklopol> btw "tree-walking NFA are strictly weaker than regular tree languages" is a very new result
19:48:02 <oklopol> tree walking automata were not really studied at all until 2005
19:48:13 <oklopol> because really basic questions about them are really fucking hard to solve!
19:48:32 <j-invariant> hahah the hologram in star trek got "human" rights for holograms: And he said "it feels like a hollow victory"
19:48:47 <elliott> j-invariant: not Voyager i hope
19:50:33 <oklopol> elliott: what's a backreference?
19:50:59 <ais523> oklopol: it's an extension to the regexps used in programming that makes them not regular expressions
19:51:03 <oklopol> well pushdown automata obviously can't do that
19:51:11 <elliott> they're a different type of automaton
19:51:14 <oklopol> and it's obviously context-sensitive
19:51:14 <elliott> that has exponential worst-case behaviour
19:51:15 <Sgeo> I should probably eat
19:51:19 <oklopol> so something between those
19:51:23 <ais523> indeed, but regexp+backreference is less powerful than PDA, I think
19:51:29 <elliott> (even for non-backreferencing regexps)
19:51:35 <ais523> or at least, neither is strictly more powerful than the otehr
19:51:37 <elliott> (ofc you can use the more efficient kind if you know it has no backrefs)
19:51:40 <oklopol> you can do {ww : w is a word}
19:51:49 <ais523> PDAs can match brackets, backrefs can't
19:51:59 <elliott> for a very literal definition of word
19:52:03 <ais523> I mean, a PDA can match a^nb^n, but backreferences can't
19:52:24 <ais523> whereas backreference can match a^xb^ya^xb^y and PDAs can't
19:52:32 <oklopol> so mutually incompatible with CFG
19:53:00 <oklopol> and strictly smaller than CSG
19:53:18 <oklopol> (at least i think so, just make the thing you'll refer to later)
19:53:48 <oklopol> (and then when it's referenced, just compare the thing matched earlier, then continue)
19:54:14 <oklopol> using the fact CSG = linear space
19:57:16 <oklopol> of course would need an exact definition of backrefs
19:57:30 <oklopol> like in a star expression, is it clear what they do
19:59:00 <elliott> 16:56:33 <oerjan> and that type magic means it has varied whether you could use it with $
19:59:59 <oklopol> elliott: also wanna hear an even sexier characterization of the regular languages: L is regular iff there is an eq relation ~ on \Sigma^* such that 1) x ~ y => xa ~ ya for all words x, y and symbols a, 2) x ~ y => (x \in L iff y \in L)
20:00:11 <oerjan> elliott: referring to runST i believe?
20:00:55 <oklopol> more like runST*D* hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
20:00:58 <oklopol> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
20:01:01 <oklopol> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
20:01:32 <oerjan> elliott: for syntactic niceness you might want to write something like runST $ do ... rather than runST (do ...)
20:01:57 <elliott> oerjan: yeah why would that not work?
20:02:01 <elliott> does haskell do stupid things w/ forall
20:02:03 <oerjan> but without being very clever, the first cannot be typed
20:02:53 <oerjan> elliott: the thing is when you use the (do ...) directly as an argument for runST it is easier for the type system to notice it needs to pass through the forall part of the type
20:03:22 <oerjan> but with $ it has to sort of chain through the type of $ itself, which knows nothing about higher rank stuff
20:03:30 <oerjan> or at least that's my impression
20:04:02 <oerjan> and it's apparently technically tricky to make it work properly while still being decidable
20:04:32 <oerjan> :t runST $ do return "hi"
20:04:54 <oerjan> :t flip ($) runST (do return "hi")
20:04:55 <lambdabot> Cannot match a monotype with `(forall s. ST s a) -> a'
20:04:55 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `runST' is applied to too few arguments
20:04:55 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `flip', namely `runST'
20:05:21 <oerjan> the workaround is a cheat that depends on the _order_ of arguments
20:05:45 <oerjan> :t flip ($) (do return "hi") runST
20:05:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `forall s. ST s a'
20:05:46 <lambdabot> Expected type: (forall s. ST s a) -> a
20:05:48 <oklopol> why not just make $ syntactic sugar, it's not like anyone actually understands what it does anyway
20:06:19 <oklopol> haskell is like religion, people learn to preach about it but there's really no actual content
20:06:26 <oerjan> so it only works when runST is the _first_ argument of the function that the type needs to pass through
20:06:26 <oklopol> let's talk about regular languages instead
20:07:00 <oerjan> this is of course very ugly, so iirc they nearly removed it again
20:07:24 <Phantom__Hoover> <oklopol> why not just make $ syntactic sugar, it's not like anyone actually understands what it does anyway ← what's so hard to understand?
20:08:07 <oklopol> "<Phantom__Hoover> <oklopol> why not just make $ syntactic sugar, it's not like anyone actually understands what it does anyway ← what's so hard to understand?" <<< you can't understand something you can't touch with your fingers
20:08:27 <oklopol> you can try, sure, but you're living a lie.
20:08:54 <oklopol> elliott: yeah and what if it's really big? try understanding fucking $ oisjhgfoirewjfiorewjgfoiwrgijwreiguherhge
20:09:06 <elliott> becoming an ultrafinistit brb
20:11:46 <dbc> "Fuck your family" sounds like a more interesting game than "type the same thing repeatedly".
20:12:05 <elliott> what we're saying is, incest vs. spam, today on #esoteric
20:12:10 <elliott> dbc: are you just talkin' cuz i pinged you
20:12:39 <dbc> Maybe I should have swapped the pronouns, because I didn't mean MY family :)
20:13:18 <dbc> (Yes I am just talking because you mentioned my name earlier)
20:14:27 <dbc> It would be sneakier if it were not a standard feature of xchat.
20:15:56 <fizzie> The good old errno == E2BIG.
20:16:36 <elliott> dbc: xchat? you seem too old-school for xchat
20:16:40 <elliott> do we have any bitchx users here
20:17:04 <fizzie> I was one in one period of my IRC career.
20:17:27 <fizzie> Also I at some point had ircII script called "schlong", which was the most ridiculous thing ever.
20:17:47 <dbc> I'm not old-school Linux. I used Mac for most of my life. I was using Mac OS 9 for years after almost anyone else, because I thought if I was going to switch over to a Unix-based system I might as well switch over to Linux, and finally I did.
20:17:49 <oklopol> did it have buttons for drawing ascii penises
20:18:10 <fizzie> http://packetstorm.linuxsecurity.com/irc/scripts/schlong.irc
20:18:10 <elliott> "I ported my ircII script to Bitch-X. So one could say that I inserted my schlong into that Bitch-X."
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20:18:24 <elliott> i'm going to hang myself now -->
20:18:37 <fizzie> "oh and please dont run schlong with BitchX.. damn thats ugly."
20:19:04 <elliott> fizzie: oh man i love ircers, they're so irritating, look at dat ascii art splash screen
20:19:18 <fizzie> Yes, it was the very "gangsta".
20:19:20 <elliott> assign bogus_patterns *fuck* *shit* *suck* *dick* *penis* *cunt* *haha* *fake* *split* *ass* *hehe* *bogus* *yawn* *leet*
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20:19:33 <elliott> wow those quoats... i don't even
20:19:41 <fizzie> See the "random showers" part.
20:20:27 <elliott> wat @ those INPUT_PROMPT lines
20:20:37 <fizzie> It has some synflood-sort of "hacking" commands too.
20:20:40 <elliott> echo | /ls, /ls2, /ls3 - lists current directory
20:22:10 <fizzie> Also a "zmodem-bomb flood". And whatnot.
20:24:30 <elliott> fizzie: needs a command to write the entire contents of the latest phrack to irc
20:24:30 <fizzie> Also all kinds of attacks against different other scripts.
20:25:04 <fizzie> It was a bit more chaotic era. We used to hang on some ircnet channel that was the "command channel" of a backdoored mIRC script that was somewhat popular.
20:25:23 <fizzie> And then randomly autofix their infestations every now and then.
20:25:39 <fizzie> Until the channel was split-takeovered by (presumably) the script authors.
20:25:58 <elliott> fizzie: But... you were on the good side in a really, really gangster way, right?
20:26:28 <fizzie> Sure, I mean, I think there might have been some snooping around.
20:27:01 <fizzie> Anyway back then if you wanted to play with other people's machines you could just IP-scan a random ISP's dialup ranges for Back Orifice, there were always about five per a /24.
20:27:54 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:28:06 <fizzie> For example there was the Quake Incident.
20:28:14 <fizzie> But maybe I shouldn't go into any incriminating details.
20:29:46 <fizzie> Let's just say that hypothetically some people might have used BO to modify a person's quake 1 configs (to set the rainbow-colorful poly-test mode on, rearrange all keys, and make most of then send weird messages to the chat channel) and then pop up a MessageBox saying "I'm Quake 1: play me, I'm better than ever".
20:30:06 <fizzie> (But there was a backup of the original config too, hypothetically.)
20:31:26 <elliott> ircnet is descendent of original IRC, right?
20:31:28 <elliott> it's the one that kept eric
20:31:55 <elliott> did eris get dropped from everyone, then?
20:32:11 <oklopol> elliott: assuming fizzie'll know that is racist
20:32:30 <fizzie> And then that thing where a guy was ICQing to an away-being friend of him, and the hypothetical people were reading his messages via BO's keylogger and replying with MessageBoxes. He was very curious to know how we were sending those "pull-up messages"; also the hypothetical people tried to convince him that they were the "root administrators of the Internet", but he caught that ruse because they were speaking Finnish.
20:33:08 <elliott> Gregor: Meanwhile, in the realm of Ridiculous Ideas: "The Zaphod addon integrates Narcissus into Firefox."
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20:34:12 <fizzie> Yes, IRCnet split out of EFnet post the whole eris thing.
20:34:25 <fizzie> It's a bit arguable whether EFnet or IRCnet is "the" descendant.
20:34:35 <fizzie> I see EFnet's Wikipedia article claims they are.
20:34:44 <elliott> fizzie: So eris got completely abandoned?
20:34:48 <elliott> Eris Free Net is a bit of a strange name, then.
20:35:04 <fizzie> They had some sort of a short-lived network there too.
20:35:38 <elliott> Were you around before the split? This is, like, meeting someone who was alive when the dinosaurs were around! :p
20:36:22 <elliott> Right, so it went IRC ---> EFnet + A-net ---> EFnet ---> EFnet + Undernet ---> EFnet + Undernet + IRCnet ---> explosion
20:36:47 <fizzie> Not before EFnet, no. I had visited IRC before the EFnet/IRCnet split (via Freenet or whatever), but I wasn't very active back then.
20:36:53 <jix> Gregor: there is only so much time
20:37:02 <elliott> wrong, there is infinite time
20:37:03 <fizzie> I think I didn't seriously start doing the IRC thing until about '97 or so.
20:37:24 <elliott> fizzie: Erm, define Freenet.
20:37:27 <oklopol> lol, elliott wasn't even born
20:37:27 <elliott> Obviously not /that/ Freenet.
20:37:38 <fizzie> Not that; it was some sort of a modem-accessible thing.
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20:38:13 <fizzie> Free-Net Finland - Finland's K-12 school (whole nation)
20:38:17 <elliott> "Later in 2009, some major IRC servers were delinked: irc.vel.net, irc.dks.ca, irc.pte.hu, EFnet's only UK server efnet.demon.co.uk, and EFnet's only UK hub hub.uk, which were sponsored by Demon Internet."
20:38:17 <fizzie> Sort of a Finnish BBS thing.
20:38:21 <fizzie> Never all that popular.
20:38:26 <elliott> Does anyone actually /like/ EFnet?
20:39:37 <fizzie> EFnetters themselves are fond of their network, I think.
20:39:38 <elliott> Personally I wish Freenode would die and OFTC to take its place.
20:39:38 <elliott> Ho ho, us and our modern, stately, warezless, enlightened channels.
20:39:40 <fizzie> I'm not sure if I've spent any real time there; I was on a few Dalnet channels some time back, and had mostly idle-only connections to some others, including Quakenet.
20:39:50 <fizzie> I think there was a competing "fizzie" in Quakenet at some point.
20:39:59 <fizzie> Or it might've been a "fizzle".
20:40:02 <elliott> you should visit vjn, they're fun crazies
20:40:44 <fizzie> Aw, freenet.hut.fi no longer exists; I guess it's dead too.
20:40:46 <oklopol> * Spoli (~Samuvain@Spoli.users.quakenet.org) Quit (Ping timeout)
20:41:02 <elliott> oklopol: if this were like a year ago i could have pasted five pages of ooing
20:41:48 <elliott> quintopia: you're not european enough
20:41:48 <quintopia> what is the appropriate gateway server to use
20:41:53 <oklopol> we are actually thinking about doing some stuff soon
20:42:02 <elliott> hey you know what we should do
20:42:05 <elliott> blatantly break freenode policy
20:42:10 <oklopol> so it might be there's also more ooing coming up
20:42:20 <elliott> leaving freenode empty and barren
20:42:36 -!- Tritonio has joined.
20:43:00 <oklopol> i wonder how long freenode would last if we left
20:43:14 <elliott> after we, their main source of activity, disappear
20:43:15 <fizzie> irc.stealth.net used to be the main US mostly-open-for-everyone IRCnet server.
20:43:15 <fizzie> It splits somewhat often, though.
20:43:15 <elliott> (bad taste ahead) we could call it LFnet, lilo free net
20:43:16 <elliott> fizzie: "mostly-open-for-everyone"?
20:43:44 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, they have pretty flexible I:lines. Generally the .fi servers serve a rather limited region; usually ISP-run servers tend to serve just their own clients and so on.
20:43:46 <elliott> but man, esonet, we could all have oper status, apart from vorpal
20:44:03 <elliott> but we'd just k-line him whenever he threatened to use them
20:44:13 <oklopol> and we could even all have OUR OWN CHANNELS!
20:44:13 <elliott> that way we could claim to not be discriminatoring
20:44:15 <fizzie> And many others have those "restricted" i:lines where you can't get +o on a channel.
20:44:26 <elliott> oklopol: vjn could move in! to double the activity!
20:44:41 <fizzie> They're to encourage people to use their local server, of course.
20:44:49 <fizzie> We're not made out of bandwidth!
20:45:11 <pikhq> fizzie: By US standards, you are.
20:45:23 <tswett> So, guys, it's currently colder at this spot in Michigan than it is in Helsinki.
20:45:31 <elliott> oklopol: we could have non-# channels
20:45:35 <elliott> what are the fun channel types again
20:45:38 <tswett> <elliott> I didn't know Stanford was in Michigan again.
20:45:50 <elliott> again, yeah, it used to be
20:46:05 <fizzie> What I'm on, irc.nebula.fi, seems to have I lines mostly for their own customers.
20:46:09 <fizzie> The list is horribly long though.
20:46:40 <elliott> fizzie: lol in finland your isps run irc servers...strange world
20:46:45 <elliott> here it's like, no, we don't do usenet, no
20:46:52 <elliott> but we have 200mb of free web space do you want that
20:46:59 <fizzie> ISPs and universities.
20:47:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:47:01 <elliott> with bad webmail, this is a feature for you?
20:49:27 <fizzie> Most ISPs here tend to have a bad webmail too.
20:50:36 <fizzie> This Internet here comes with 600 MB of webspace (of which I use none) and 5 email boxes, that's I think pretty standard.
20:51:39 <fizzie> Oh, and they often bundle a subscription to some sort of antivirii/firewall/"end-user security" product at the same or low extra (+3e/month?) price, that's a common feature too.
20:52:29 <fizzie> It also seems to have become a standard that most ADSL/cable modem links come with a system that gives you (via DHCP) 5 simultaneous public IPs, but no more; if you want more devices than that, it's going to need to be NATted.
20:52:57 <elliott> fizzie: Here we get 1 public IP.
20:53:24 <fizzie> (Some of them even try in the contract to say that "you can only connect up to 5 computers to the pipe", but I'm not sure if that's even theoretically enforceable; in practice it isn't.)
20:54:37 <fizzie> Pretty much all of them also have a very vague "you must not connect a server into our pipe" condition, that's widely ignored.
20:54:55 <ais523> fizzie: in the UK, they actually try to enforce no-servers conditions sometimes
20:55:02 <ais523> normally by blocking a whole load of ports inbound
20:55:17 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's sometimes done.
20:55:30 <fizzie> And most of places block outbound SMTP except to their own relay, but that's just common sense.
20:55:42 <fizzie> I guess some (don't know how many) block inbound SMTP too.
20:55:58 <fizzie> At least it cuts down the number of badly configured open-relay spamservers.
20:56:10 <elliott> <fizzie> And most of places block outbound SMTP except to their own relay, but that's just common sense.
20:56:33 <elliott> john gilmore's toad.com is an open proxy
20:56:33 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "common sense", but it doesn't really inconvenience anyone.
20:56:37 <elliott> he gets shit from his isp all the time for it
20:56:49 <ais523> sending email directly rather than via the ISP relay is almost never deliberate
20:56:54 <elliott> "He runs the mail server at toad.com as an open mail relay. In October 2002, Gilmore's ISP, Verio, cut off his Internet access for running an open relay, a violation of Verio's terms of service. Many people contend that open relays make it too easy to send spam. Gilmore protests that his mail server was programmed to be essentially useless to spammers and other senders of mass email and he argues that Verio's actions constitute censorship. He als
20:56:54 <elliott> o notes that his configuration makes it easier for friends who travel to send email, although his critics counter that there are other mechanisms to accommodate people wanting to send email while traveling."
20:57:02 <elliott> ais523: eh, mailing directly is fun
20:57:10 <fizzie> I mean, you can still run a completely open mail relay if you want, it's just that you have to configure it to use the ISP's box as a relay.
20:57:13 <elliott> ais523: to be fair, i basically oppose any kind of isp filtering of the internet whatsoever
20:57:16 <fizzie> Presumably they can then notice spamming better.
20:59:05 <fizzie> A reasonable number I think also blocks inbound netbios-over-TCP and naked-CIFS-at-445 ports too.
21:00:00 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind that sort of thing being an opt-out thing you could disable if you liked, but I doubt many ISPs bother.
21:00:42 <fizzie> Somewhere I think I've seen a web-form driven system where you could configure your own port filterings.
21:00:53 <fizzie> Maybe it was at Dystopia or something, those guys were pretty informal.
21:01:21 <fizzie> ("Configure" as in "select one out of three options".)
21:02:47 <elliott> ais523: "Charles Walker (CWW) has invited you to join Empire Avenue, the social stock market game! To accept the invitation and sign up – it's totally free! – click on this link:"
21:02:54 <fizzie> Got merged into Sci.fi, which got merged into Saunalahti, which currently exists as a brand of Elisa, I think.
21:02:59 <ais523> elliott: it's a pretty common name
21:03:10 <elliott> ais523: yes, but most people don't have my email
21:03:13 <ais523> c_walker (or c-walker) was an Agoran for a while, I think
21:03:16 <elliott> i only know of one cwalker
21:06:14 <ais523> elliott: send him back similar spam, but which actually goes up to the signup page for an esolang
21:06:21 <ais523> err, if any esolangs have one of those
21:06:23 <elliott> ais523: signup page for an... esolang?
21:06:31 <elliott> what were you trying to say :D
21:06:59 <ais523> elliott: well, one proto-esolang idea I've had is that it's just like a normal language (or maybe BF, or whatever), except that the spec says that you have to send me money every time you run a program with it
21:07:02 <oklopol> why couldn't you have a signup page for an esolang
21:07:03 <ais523> otherwise, it's not a conforming impl
21:07:13 <elliott> ais523: i'd be the first to run a program! prolly not
21:07:16 <ais523> the spending money is the only interesting feature
21:07:45 <fizzie> Found an ISP review article in a Finnish computer rag from '98; it goes: "even though IRC addicts curse the new HPY calling costs and cut their calls every half an hour --"; I so remember doing that.
21:08:10 <ais523> wow, I think this paper was written on a typewriter with underlines and multiline square brackets drawn by hand
21:08:20 <ais523> also, all the pages are slightly different sizes
21:08:47 <fizzie> (HPY is the Helsinki area phone service; they used to have a per-call price for the "weekdays 17-08 + weekends" time range; but then they changed it to per-call price + per-minute addition for minutes extending 30, so that for asymptotical optimum it was best to hang up every 36-37 minutes or so.)
21:10:06 <pikhq> fizzie: Per-call pricing for phone in general?
21:10:22 <fizzie> Yeah, it was before widespread use of computars, really.
21:10:31 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that here, at least "local" calls have been flat rate per-month.
21:10:53 <pikhq> With a per-minute charge for "long distance" which has become completely stupid.
21:11:47 <pikhq> Where the definitions of either are slightly arbitrary, but *usually* the town you're in and the surrounding area will all be local.
21:11:58 <fizzie> Right; well, it was something like that except a (really rather small) per-call cost (and pretty small monthly payments), before they had to change it because people started making 12-hour "calls".
21:12:25 <pikhq> The phone companies here generally didn't give a rip about 12-hour calls.
21:12:41 <fizzie> I'm guessing they just saw a chance to make more money from Internet addicts.
21:12:47 <pikhq> Well, at least in my experience.
21:13:20 <fizzie> Anyway, when the phone companies went to per-call-time pricing for local calls too, the ISPs by contrast started offering flat-rate monthly prices.
21:13:49 <pikhq> I do know that Internet addicts here would often get a second phone line installed...
21:13:58 <Phantom__Hoover> <pikhq> With a per-minute charge for "long distance" which has become completely stupid. ← I really don't get that.
21:14:22 <elliott> should not be displayed directly, but are expected to be found in ordinary text files (such as backspace and tab).
21:14:25 <elliott> text files have backspaces in them?
21:15:01 <oklopol> well they can start with backspaces
21:15:34 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: At least around here "long-distance" used to be "goes into the area of another regional telephone service provider", and then it sort-of makes sense, since the other company's going to charge from the use of their network.
21:15:35 <pikhq> Ah, apparently the US domestic phone services offer not-very-expensive unlimited long distance now.
21:16:07 <fizzie> "Landlines" are pretty much dying now anyway, so the pricing model is a bit moot.
21:16:23 <pikhq> Erm, s/domestic/landline/
21:16:28 <pikhq> Phantom__Hoover: Once upon a time, long-distance calls entailed a lot of pricey infrastructure.
21:16:45 <pikhq> Now, they entail having Internet access.
21:17:31 <pikhq> (up until like 30 years ago, the entire phone system was analog...)
21:18:09 <fizzie> Some statistics say that in 2009 in Finland <30% of homes had landlines, while in Sweden the same was >55%.
21:18:47 <pikhq> elliott: Nowadays, your phone service gets digitised at the other end of the last mile.
21:19:12 <pikhq> Well, in some cases it actually gets digitised *during* that.
21:19:13 <Phantom__Hoover> fizzie, yeah, but you guys see internet access as a human right.
21:19:25 <pikhq> Say, at a box on your block, or even right at your POP...
21:19:30 <fizzie> With ISDN links it's digital all the way; those got some small amount of popularity in Finland (and more in Germany), but never really much.
21:19:48 <fizzie> I understand in most places it never caught on even to the degree it did here.
21:19:55 <pikhq> After that, it's all fairly low-fidelity PCM.
21:20:20 <pikhq> (this low-fidelity PCM is actually the *cause* of 56 kbps being the upper bound on modems)
21:20:26 <ais523> gah, the University doesn't seem to have rights to a copy of a particular paper I'm looking for, and it isn't very important
21:20:35 <fizzie> 8 kHz, 8 bits; 64 kbps.
21:20:41 <ais523> so I don't want to ask them to pay to obtain them
21:20:58 <elliott> ais523: that is... almost Sgeo-esque
21:21:06 <elliott> except with Sgeo it's feeling responsible for things
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21:22:09 <pikhq> Yay, mu-law or A-law PCM.
21:22:39 <ais523> the paper isn't found by Google at all; looking in more specialised search engines I managed to discover its existence, but nothing more than that
21:22:44 <Gregor> Did fizzie or nooga talk while I was gone?
21:23:19 <elliott> nooga is only medium-active :P
21:23:28 <Gregor> Oh, in fact, fizzie was talking four minutes ago :P
21:23:42 <elliott> i thought you wanted to be old
21:23:52 <Gregor> I don't want to be oldEST.
21:23:55 <quintopia> i don't understand how we went from a telegraph network to an analog network and couldn't go back to the old digital stuff...
21:23:59 <fizzie> Oh well, the landlines still make better-quality calls than most mobile phone networks. (I guess with 3G's AMR-WB that's a bit arguable.)
21:24:03 <ais523> also, sorting directories by last-modified time is a surprisingly useful sort order
21:24:07 <elliott> Gregor: you're the real-world-oldest! ok not even close
21:24:08 <ais523> although dotfiles and my IRC logs normally win
21:24:17 <Gregor> elliott: My age is a mystery X-P
21:24:19 <quintopia> seems like they'd keep that stuff around. replace the electromechanical switchs with electronic repeaters...
21:24:20 <elliott> i think impomatic is the oldest one we know
21:24:25 <elliott> Gregor: 27 and five quarters
21:24:43 <ais523> I don't think of impomatic as being particularly real-world old
21:24:54 <elliott> definitely >=40 (if i'm wrong: sry impo)
21:25:02 <ais523> that doesn't surprise me, although it's not what I expected
21:25:04 <elliott> but like 90% sure it's >=40
21:25:08 <elliott> oerjan is 38 or maybe 39 now
21:25:24 <ais523> and will never catch up
21:25:26 <elliott> I think Ruxglo is probably pretty old since he goes on about computers being so bloated these days
21:25:32 <elliott> but i'm less old-farty about it
21:25:32 <quintopia> Gregor: because you haven't C-sectioned the inner child yet :P
21:25:58 <pikhq> quintopia: The telegraph network is still running.
21:26:07 <Gregor> quintopia, elliott: Hint: my age is between 17 and 71
21:26:11 <pikhq> quintopia: It, too, runs over the Internet.
21:27:00 <quintopia> let's just assume he's 44 with a childlike spirit from here out
21:27:01 <fizzie> elliott: If you had some sort of an IRC clippy, it'd pop up now and say "I see you're doing a binary search. Would you like any help with that?"
21:27:24 * oerjan thinks his dad had ISDN at one time
21:27:29 <elliott> He said he was 14, I think, 1999-2001
21:27:34 -!- augur has joined.
21:27:37 <elliott> So he's 24 or 25, basically :P
21:27:50 <elliott> quintopia: well i knew that
21:27:54 <pikhq> quintopia: For instance, the recent Wikileaks stuff? Those are *leaked telegrams*.
21:28:00 <elliott> trollaximafyagratorybitchatok
21:28:12 <Gregor> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
21:28:21 <quintopia> pikhq: oh right. thankfully, we don't have to write STOP at the end of sentences now
21:28:22 <fizzie> oerjan: It was called the "I Still Don't Need it" network, too. Or the "I Smell Dollars Now" network.
21:29:53 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan is 38 or maybe 39 now <-- 40
21:30:26 <fizzie> Isn't the Wikileaks stuff from SIPRNet? I don't think that's exactly "the telegraph network", since it's a closed non-civilian thing.
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21:31:09 <pikhq> fizzie: Okay, it's not so much a single network as it is a bunch of networks with similar, archaic standards.
21:31:16 <elliott> The Secret Internet Protocol Router Network (SIPRNet) is "a system of interconnected computer networks used by the United States Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State to transmit classified information (up to and including information classified SECRET) by packet switching over the TCP/IP protocols in a 'completely secure' environment".[1] It also provides services such as hypertext document access and electronic mail. As such, S
21:31:16 <elliott> IPRNet is the DoD’s classified version of the civilian Internet.
21:31:23 <pikhq> fizzie: And the diplomatic cable leaks used one such archaic standard.
21:31:30 <pikhq> elliott: They tunnel Telex over it.
21:33:07 <fizzie> I'm surprised they don't use X.400 messages instead.
21:34:21 <pikhq> *Anyways*, it's pretty funny how all of that stuff is still in use just because it takes time to stop using it.
21:35:48 <fizzie> "UUCP was in use over special-purposes high cost links (e.g., marine satellite links) long after its disappearance elsewhere[4], and still remains in legacy use." Yes, it certainly seems that way.
21:36:23 <pikhq> And it'll probably be quite a while for UUCP to actually *stop*. Especially as it's easy to tunnel over IP.
21:36:43 <elliott> but it should have been done with the normal cp command >:D
21:37:34 <pikhq> An email address that needs to go through UUCP would be pretty funny to have.
21:37:37 <fizzie> "Unix-to-Unix Copy Program," said PDP-1. "You will never find a more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious." [From DEC WARS.]
21:38:10 <pikhq> "Oh, yeah, my email address is pikhq@uucp-proxy.com!foo!bar!baz"
21:39:28 <fizzie> Back in the '90s I think the emails sent from a Finnish insurance company went through a X.400-to-email-and-back gateway; this made for some pretty horrible-looking email addresses.
21:39:38 <fizzie> Maybe not as silly as bang paths, but long anyway.
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21:40:14 <pikhq> Ah, sorry "foo!bar!baz!pikhq@uucp-proxy.com"
21:40:18 <coppro> rumour has it the smtp daemon here at the university will forward mail with no envelop addresses
21:40:48 <ais523> bah, even formal papers can be really vague
21:41:14 <ais523> this paper says "alternating", and ababababab is obviously allowed, but I'm not sure if abababababa is
21:41:18 <ais523> and it's not obvious from context either
21:41:32 <Phantom__Hoover> <coppro> rumour has it the smtp daemon here at the university will forward mail with no envelop addresses ← surely that's easy to test?
21:42:20 <coppro> Phantom__Hoover: that requires me to figure out where it is
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21:42:26 <pikhq> elliott: Well who is actually *on* UUCP any more for email?
21:42:29 <coppro> and that sounds like effort
21:42:58 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, okay, you can just go to "foo!bar!baz!pikhq"
21:43:21 <elliott> are there any public uucp nodes still around :P
21:43:30 <fizzie> pikhq: Isn't the usual way to do {foo,fii,faa}!bar!baz!pikhq so that the user has easier time finding the starting point? :p
21:44:15 <ais523> any ideas here as to whether this paper intended (in a C-like syntax) {auto semaphore s; grab(s);} to be legal?
21:44:22 <ais523> (i.e. the semaphore is grabbed and then immediately goes out of scope)
21:44:43 <ais523> you could make a case either way
21:44:49 <elliott> ais523: that sounds "unsound"
21:44:53 <elliott> so i'd expect not, if it's like
21:44:57 <elliott> trying to make type-safe semaphores
21:45:05 <ais523> it's not trying to make type-safe semaphores
21:45:11 <elliott> no idea without more context, then
21:45:16 <ais523> it's just trying to express them in a strongly typed language
21:45:20 <ais523> and I don't have enough context to tell either
21:45:42 <fizzie> The X.400-derived addresses were something like "G=Ernie;S=Egbert;O=Company;OU=Sales;PRMD=strngabbrv;ADMD=strngabbrv;C=fi@x400.wht.evr.isp.fi", possibly with some of the more special pre-@ characters escaped in some way.
21:45:51 <ais523> the paper says that when a semaphore goes into scope, there's an alternating sequence of grabs and releases, then it goes out of scope
21:45:55 <ais523> that's the semantics of a semaphore
21:46:29 <ais523> and "alternating" is such a tricky word there
21:46:58 <elliott> ais523: I'd say it's invalid, then
21:47:10 <elliott> ais523: I would imagine that they grabs and releases must be balanced
21:47:15 <elliott> go on that assumption unless you find a contradiction later
21:47:21 <fizzie> Is this paper somewhere?
21:47:29 <Sgeo> Well, Atomo is not multiple-dispatch, despite claims to the contrary
21:47:30 <elliott> fizzie: I doubt ais523 would BREAK THE LAW like that.
21:47:31 <ais523> well, the paper does allow semaphores to be initialised in a grabbed state, which makes me think they needn't be
21:47:49 <ais523> actually, this one is: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/scc-tcs.pdf
21:48:14 <elliott> <ais523> well, the paper does allow semaphores to be initialised in a grabbed state, which makes me think they needn't be
21:48:19 <elliott> don't you know that Ghica guy?
21:48:21 <Sgeo> http://raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/atomo/today.txt
21:48:25 <ais523> yes, he's my supervisor
21:48:31 <elliott> ais523: ask him, you doofus :P
21:48:49 <ais523> and besides, I'm trying to figure out what the paper says, not what he means
21:48:56 <ais523> it's the sort of definition that can easily be changed on a whim
21:49:03 <elliott> [15:46:35] BrianRice-work: pattern-matching *is* multiple dispatch plus destructuring and some other conditionalized flow-control
21:49:05 <ais523> as long as you own up to it
21:49:07 <elliott> i hate that characterisation
21:49:20 <elliott> i guess it works for OOP languages
21:49:23 <ais523> elliott: it isn't incorrect, just useless
21:49:29 <elliott> ais523: it's incorrect in Haskell!
21:49:37 <elliott> and every language where pattern matching is common, pretty much
21:49:44 <ais523> because multiple dispatch doesn't really have meaning in Haskell
21:49:53 <ais523> but if it /did/ have meaning, it would be one way to define pattern matching
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22:00:25 <j-invariant> speaking of minecraft, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2mCDkqXki0
22:01:31 -!- variable has joined.
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22:05:41 <ais523> j-invariant: wrong channel...
22:06:34 -!- variable has joined.
22:07:30 <ais523> hey, now I get to enforce topicality here again!
22:07:37 <ais523> and I thought we'd all but given up on that years ago
22:07:49 <elliott> ais523: no you don't, only for minecraft
22:07:50 <ais523> that said, we do launch into ontopic conversation whenever something new in the world of esoprogramming comes up
22:07:52 <elliott> other offtopic things still belond here
22:07:55 <ais523> elliott: well, sometimes
22:08:14 <elliott> admittedly, I don't move offtopic, non-esoteric conversations in -minecraft here, due to that being just silly
22:08:28 <ais523> my research is sufficiently weird that I can almost claim it's ontopic here
22:08:41 <ais523> I mean, who uses lazy imperative languages anyway?
22:08:43 <elliott> oh, I'd say it's on-topic, in that it's relevant to all our interests :P
22:08:55 <coppro> probably someone at this university
22:08:57 <ais523> I just need to break through the mathsese to explain it here
22:09:02 <elliott> admittedly, I can conceive of an esolanger who wouldn't be interested in your research coming in here, but I doubt they'd be well-liked
22:09:07 <coppro> ais523: I mean waterloo
22:09:12 <ais523> well, not for programming, just as an intermediate step
22:09:17 <elliott> ais523: hey there are plenty of people in this channel fluent in mathsese :P
22:09:25 <oklopol> regular languages also have to following characterization, methinks: let M be a finite monoid, and let h be a monoid homomorphism from \Sigma^* to M, then the preimage of every subset of M is regular, and all regular languages are obtained this way
22:09:31 <ais523> yes, but it's a particular style of mathsese
22:09:40 <ais523> I struggle with oklopol's, for instance, just because I'm not used to it
22:09:44 <ais523> and probably vice versa
22:09:57 <elliott> no oklopol is just a genius who understands everything
22:11:20 <oklopol> i'm too tired to see if that characterization is true
22:11:54 <ais523> hmm, this website that gives the information needed for citing papers just puts it in a text file called "science"
22:13:23 <ais523> hmm, this report cites six different papers by my supervisor
22:13:30 <oklopol> okay so at least it's true for unary languages
22:13:35 <ais523> somehow I'm not surprised he took me on as a PhD student, now
22:13:39 <ais523> he must have known it'd get him more citations
22:13:55 <ais523> (it's quite a small field, there's something like six or eight people in it)
22:14:16 <coppro> lazy imperative languages?
22:14:22 <elliott> ais523: it's quite a strange field, i don't understand how anyone can get a phd without being converted to the functional order ;D
22:14:36 <oklopol> that's cool because mine is too
22:14:45 <elliott> oklopol: but do you play football on it
22:14:45 <ais523> elliott: oh, they're functional as well
22:14:58 <ais523> we compile imperative languages into lazy imperative languages into call-by-name functional languages into hardware
22:15:08 <ais523> but there are higher-order functions even in the original imperative languages
22:15:10 <elliott> side-effects, who cares about the world, i don't get it, the world sucks
22:15:11 <coppro> ok, that's pretty narrow
22:15:26 <coppro> oklopol: what's your field?
22:15:27 <ais523> because computer scientists are of the opinion that a language isn't really a language at all if it doesn't do higher-order functions
22:15:30 <elliott> ais523: higher-order functions are a requirement for being called a language :)
22:15:36 <oklopol> coppro: currently, it's picture languages
22:15:39 <elliott> ais523: /functional/ is when a language /just/ has functions
22:15:46 <elliott> or, well, ADTs are also acceptable
22:15:48 <oklopol> it's not really a "field" :P
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22:16:01 <elliott> but yes, languages without higher-order functions aren't
22:16:12 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to figure out if our functional languages that go straight into hardware have side effects or not
22:16:31 <ais523> I think they cheat by effectively using an IO monad, and hiding it better than Haskell does
22:16:39 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:16:54 <elliott> the haskell conspiracy denies these awful allegations of the IO monad's impurity!
22:16:58 -!- cheater00 has joined.
22:17:08 <elliott> (that they are true is besides the point)
22:17:17 <ais523> well, ICA has a type "com" which is basically just an IO action
22:17:23 <ais523> and all the other types are IO actions too
22:17:30 <elliott> you also have com -> exp -> exp
22:17:48 <elliott> what's the type of the read-char function in ICA
22:18:05 <elliott> it has to be an exp, right?
22:18:14 <elliott> your type system is more like an effect system
22:18:17 <ais523> or, well, exp x exp x exp x exp x exp x exp x exp x exp
22:18:21 <elliott> as it doesn't type the actual /values/
22:18:21 <ais523> because expressions are booleans
22:18:54 <ais523> my whole thesis is basically "you can use type systems for anything, even hardware"
22:18:55 <elliott> ais523: obviously, your only type should be .5 bits
22:19:13 <ais523> so we use type systems to represent anything that sensibly needs representing
22:19:24 <elliott> that way, it has 1.5 values
22:19:37 <elliott> and if you stick two of them together, you get a trit that you can just ignore one value of
22:19:38 <ais523> err, that doesn't map into hardware well
22:19:44 <oklopol> so anyway regular unary = eventually period binary sequences (where s_i = 1 iff word of length i is in the language);so take the monoid with one generator a, and a^m = a^k for m < k, so if you start from 1 and start multiplying by a, you get 1, a, a^2, ..., a^k, ..., a^{m-1}, a^k and the loop starts repeating, now it's obvious how to get eventually periodic sequences as preimages, just take homomorphism h(b) = a where your language is
22:19:51 <ais523> also, two 1.5-valued numbers gives you a 2.25-valued number
22:20:00 <oklopol> you get 1, a, a^2, ..., a^k, ..., a^{m-1}, a^k and the loop starts repeating, now it's obvious how to get eventually periodic sequences as preimages, just take homomorphism h(b) = a where your language is unary over b, and take preimages of 1, a, a^2, ..., a^k to get the nonperiodic part, and preimages of a^k, ..., a^{m-1} to get the periodic part
22:20:06 <oklopol> i should get an irc client
22:20:22 <ais523> oklopol: mIRC is an IRC client, sot of
22:20:29 <elliott> ais523: er, what's half of a trit then... oh wait, that's easy
22:20:31 <oklopol> or did you mean it didn't come through as in, nonsense filter caught it in your brain
22:20:44 <ais523> oklopol: the end of the line was cut off the first time
22:21:03 <oklopol> yeah well luckily you have it now
22:21:07 <elliott> ais523: ok wait, a trit is 1.5 bits, right?
22:21:16 <ais523> no, it's log 3 / log 2 bits
22:21:16 <oerjan> <oklopol> i'm too tired to see if that characterization is true <-- looks plausible to me, for one direction let M = S^S where S is your DFA states, for the other let S = M. i think.
22:21:30 <ais523> (the nice thing about that formula is that it doesn't matter what base you take the logarithms to)
22:21:37 <elliott> ais523: right, so how many bits is half a trit, i'm getting myself really confused
22:21:46 <ais523> elliott: log 3 / log 2 / 2
22:22:05 <ais523> and log 3 / log 2 is not log 1.5, log 3 - log 2 is log 1.5
22:22:22 <ais523> apparently log 3 / log 2 / 2 is 0.79248125
22:22:25 <elliott> ais523: I conclude, then, that exp should hold log(3)/2log(2) bits.
22:22:27 <oklopol> so S = M, then when you read a symbol, take its image, and multiply what you have by that
22:22:45 <elliott> ais523: to make a boolean, pack two of them together, and treat 2 as file-not-found
22:22:57 <ais523> elliott: unfortunately the semantics we're using requires all storage to have an integral number of states
22:23:01 <ais523> as we're storing things in regular expressions
22:23:07 <elliott> ais523: that's a shame, that you have to redo your semantics
22:23:17 <ais523> (the actual regular expressions, not regexps)
22:23:34 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah those look correct to me
22:23:37 <elliott> ais523: this is making me think of turkey bomb
22:23:57 <oklopol> not that you weren't sure already, prolly
22:24:53 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I want to make that log(3)/2log(2) esolang now
22:25:07 <elliott> ais523: obviously, you'd have to have an even number of variables at any one time (if you have an odd one, an extra one is added)
22:25:15 <elliott> ais523: then, the variable storage is just an array of trits
22:25:23 <elliott> ais523: but how does one extract the lower half-trit out of a trit?
22:25:36 <oklopol> oerjan: for S^S, the language is preimages of functions that map some initial to a final?
22:25:39 <elliott> i.e., if this was two bits, then it'd be (x&1) for 1 bit
22:25:43 <elliott> what's the equivalent for a trit, and half a trit?
22:26:12 <oklopol> yeah surely that's what it is
22:26:24 <ais523> elliott: make sure you add my nondeterministic lazy maximum function
22:26:24 <elliott> oerjan: fail: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Yasser
22:26:31 <elliott> ais523: that's not an answer to my question :D
22:26:38 <elliott> how do you extract the lower half-trit from a trit
22:26:58 <ais523> (it takes two of its three arguments in the order they're given, and works out the maximum value of them, not evaluating the second if the first was already at the maximum possible value)
22:27:07 <ais523> elliott: you don't, the operation doesn't make sense
22:27:31 <elliott> ais523: a trit is composed out of two half-trits, ergo there is some way to extract them
22:28:09 <elliott> ais523: and, obviously, the result is 0 <= result < 3^(log(2)^2 / 2)
22:28:14 <ais523> haha, not only do I have six papers from my supervisor cited, but they're dated 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
22:28:24 <elliott> excuse me ais523, we're on the verge of a breakthrough here!
22:28:26 <ais523> (I coauthored the 2010 and 2011 papers)
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22:29:57 <oklopol> the esolang page links to their blog, and the blog maps to the esolang page
22:29:59 <elliott> oklopol: some random crap ->bf language that the creators are treating all enterprisey
22:30:08 <elliott> they made a blog post announcing they made a page on esolang
22:30:16 <elliott> which makes the evil man in me want to have it deleted :D
22:30:24 <elliott> it says nothing about the language
22:30:30 <elliott> surely that's criteria for deletion? ais523?
22:30:37 <oklopol> well yeah that was very funny and all, but i'd like to know what the language is like, because that would be much funnier
22:30:38 <elliott> it's basically marketing material with not a _single_ bit of info about the actual language
22:30:44 <ais523> elliott: I haven't looked at it yet
22:30:51 <ais523> but that's par for the course for non-eso langs, isn't it?
22:31:00 <elliott> ais523: there is /no/ info about it /anywhere/
22:31:03 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: for S^S, the language is preimages of functions that map some initial to a final? <-- yeah
22:31:27 <coppro> oklopol: is piet considered the leading research in your field?
22:31:34 <elliott> ais523: the _entire_ info about the lang that can be gleaned from their esowiki page and blog: The syntax is "basically" inspired by Tbf.
22:31:34 <oklopol> oerjan: i like how i couldn't even see S = M :D
22:31:38 <elliott> the only info about the implementation:
22:31:45 <elliott> ClearBF is based on a C implementation using the Flex library to generate the lexical analyser for the ClearBF language. We have implemented the majority of algorithms used when translating the ClearBF code to the BF. However we've used some famous Brainfuck algorithms.
22:31:45 <oklopol> maybe i should consider sleeping...
22:31:49 <elliott> ais523: the rest is a development team list
22:32:05 <elliott> and the blog is filled with crap like this:
22:32:06 <elliott> [[The objective of “Compilation Project” at ENSIAS – Rabat is to apply the content of the Compilation course on the development of a compiler, which is a relatively large application. The project is therefore both a “compilation” project and a “software engineering” project. The main points are: compliance with requirements, software design, validation and verification techniques, quality process.
22:32:06 <elliott> The software, which is to be developed in C programming language with Flex (The Fast Lexical Analyzer), is a compiler for a simple language. In our case, we’ve created the ClearBF language. This theme has been chosen firstly because the requirements can be understood quickly, and secondly because it allows a deeper understanding of the underlying concepts of programming languages.
22:32:07 <elliott> The projects was developed with supervised and non-supervised lab work sessions.]]
22:32:20 <elliott> now this is /partly/ because i'm evil, but I do think it's a useless page even by esowiki's standards
22:32:34 <oklopol> coppro: robozzle was pretty close to what i'm doing research on, actually
22:32:35 <elliott> and I think new articles about languages that are clearly already designed should definitely include _some_ info about the language
22:32:41 <elliott> especially if the language creator is writing it
22:33:03 <ais523> they don't actually say it, but I get the feeling that ClearBF is actually an implementation of TBF, which is a trivial BF derivative
22:33:12 <ais523> the link to a page describing TBF wouldn't make sense otherwise
22:33:20 <elliott> ais523: they say the syntax is inspired
22:33:28 <quintopia> mark it for deletion so as to force them to expand the description
22:33:37 <elliott> also, tbf is a to-brainfuck compiler, not a brainfuck derivative
22:33:41 <ais523> I think a user talk note is probably simplest
22:33:48 <ais523> elliott: well, its input is a BF derivative
22:33:51 <elliott> ais523: probably, but they sound irritating :D
22:33:58 <elliott> and fail at wikis: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Yasser
22:34:55 <oklopol> The ClearBF is based in a C implementation using the Flex library to generate the lexical analyser for ClearBF language.
22:35:18 <Sgeo> Sounds enterprisey
22:35:23 <elliott> ais523: if you don't get a meaningful response i say delete
22:35:33 <oklopol> sounds like something fungot would say
22:35:35 <Sgeo> It's clearly meant for big businesses
22:35:36 <elliott> We hope to be able to describe the ClearBF language at a later date blah blah blah blah blah blah blah! ~~~~
22:35:46 <elliott> ais523: in which case I say delete until they are going to tell us anything ...
22:36:00 <oklopol> big businesses run by bots written in befunge
22:36:05 <elliott> ok, so really i just want their self-congratulatory blogpost announcing their innovative creation of a page on the wiki to be invalidated
22:36:33 <quintopia> elliott: see the clearbf talk page
22:36:46 <j-invariant> elliott: it already is, just by its nature
22:36:50 <Sgeo> Is it someone's school project?
22:36:58 <elliott> Sgeo: many people's, it seems
22:37:04 <elliott> This project was a scholar project at ENSIAS - Morocco to build a compiler in C/Flex. The team is supervised by Dr. Karim Baîna and Mrs. Mounia ABIK. Members of the team are:
22:37:04 <elliott> Mohammed ASSOUKTI (Team’s leader)
22:37:15 <elliott> requires a phd and a team leader to write a to-bf compiler!
22:37:31 <elliott> here's my predicted grammar for the language
22:38:03 <ais523> we have some information from the use of flex but not bison
22:38:12 <elliott> <prog> ::= 'forward' | 'bacward' | 'add1' | 'dec1' | 'loopstart' | 'loopend;' | 'read_char' | 'print_char;'
22:38:13 <ais523> but I'm not entirely sure what it means
22:38:15 <j-invariant> "I have no plans to learn UML before I die. I'm sure they'll be teaching it in hell."
22:38:18 <elliott> ^^^ ClearBF Enterprise Langauge
22:38:37 <elliott> every program consists of one statement
22:38:46 <elliott> putting the parser in a loop proved impractical!
22:38:54 <Phantom__Hoover> Even ignoring that, it completely fails to balance loopss.
22:38:55 <elliott> but it has the same commands as brainfuck
22:38:58 <elliott> so obviously it's turing complete
22:39:05 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: i'm joking if it's not clear
22:39:11 <elliott> <elliott> here's my predicted grammar for the language
22:39:20 <oklopol> Phantom__Hoover is just joking
22:39:36 * Sgeo splashes acid on Phantom__Hoover
22:39:39 <oklopol> i'm actually joking, of course i got that.
22:39:44 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to potential_of_Hyd.
22:39:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:39:59 -!- potential_of_Hyd has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:41:48 <ais523> should I apologise to Evince for making it open eight PDFs at once?
22:42:03 <ais523> somehow I doubt Adobe Reader could manage that without slowing the computer down to an unusable pace
22:42:08 <elliott> ais523: is it struggling with that? :P
22:42:46 <ais523> I didn't even notice I had so many PDFs open, except via the crowded taskbar
22:42:57 <elliott> ais523: btw, get ready for gnome to become terrible: http://gnome3.org/
22:43:00 <ais523> also, a Word document, using openoffice in its pretend-to-be-a-pdf-reader mode
22:43:06 <oklopol> ais523: Tbf is not exactly trivial from what i can tell
22:43:08 <elliott> ais523: their FAQ strongly suggests gnome-panel is going to become unmaintained, but I plan to maintain it
22:43:14 <oklopol> not very complicated either
22:43:21 <elliott> ais523: this of course includes their stupid gnome-shell crap...
22:43:27 <ais523> anyway, Ubuntu apparently invented Unity just because they didn't like gnome-shell
22:43:28 <elliott> ais523: ubuntu are switching to Unity, though, which is unusable in entirely different ways
22:43:36 <elliott> ais523: and Ubuntu Desktop is going to switch to it
22:43:44 <ais523> also, what's with all the retheming?
22:43:54 <elliott> ais523: but it's all right, I plan to make sure gnome-panel keeps working until hell freezes over
22:44:19 <ais523> and why would they integrate IM into the shell?
22:44:21 <elliott> i hope it doesn't need too many bugfixes :D
22:44:32 <elliott> ais523: but in @, everything is integrated into the shell!
22:44:37 <ais523> that's the sort of thing that it makes sense to have a separate program for
22:44:39 <ais523> elliott: then it isn't a shell
22:44:46 -!- macrohauler has joined.
22:44:51 <elliott> ais523: everything is integrated into the kernel too :D
22:44:57 <oerjan> <elliott> Sgeo: that cures cancer <-- i thought from yesterday that it was _alkaline_ water which cured cancer?
22:45:11 <elliott> oerjan: no no, sgeo's alluded-to girlfriend(?) thinks vitamin c cures cancer
22:45:15 <ais523> "Our system settings have been completely redesigned for GNOME 3, making them easier to use than ever before. There are some great new features in our system settings too, such as the ability to use Flickr images as desktop backgrounds."
22:45:16 <elliott> and that chemotherapy basically does the same things as vitamin c
22:45:25 <elliott> ais523: (you could make an argument that @ actually has almost no kernel)
22:45:30 <elliott> ais523: (although it isn't really a microkernel)
22:45:45 <ais523> that line I quoted really contradicts itself in style
22:45:48 <macrohauler> good day everyone *trying not to interrupt
22:45:55 <elliott> ais523: I'm not going to start maintaining all of GNOME 2, though, so everyone's going to have to deal with that... just with a panel
22:45:59 <ais523> don't worry about interrupting, we jump topics really quickly
22:46:04 <ais523> and can carry on multiple situations simultaneously
22:46:09 <ais523> elliott: can you make it work in xmonad?
22:46:19 <ais523> *multiple conversations simultaneously
22:46:26 <elliott> also, /me doesn't think of ais523 as the kind of person to use xmonad
22:46:38 <coppro> ais523: the answer is always yes
22:46:39 <ais523> elliott: xmonad tries to treat it like any other window
22:46:40 <macrohauler> im known as fr34k at the forums, so i was wondering, could i create a new page using my current nick and then redirect from the fr34k page?
22:46:42 <coppro> everything can be made to work in xmonad
22:46:50 <elliott> fr34k, haven't you been in here before?
22:46:55 <fizzie> ais523: That's not very impressive evidence of doing multiple convesations simultaneously, getting the words all giraffe like that.
22:47:01 <elliott> macrohauler: certainly, but i think sysops can rename accounts
22:47:03 <ais523> macrohauler: oh, usernames?
22:47:08 <ais523> elliott: no we can't, I don't have the perms for that
22:47:11 <oerjan> elliott: i was referring to kurzweil i believe, not SATG
22:47:16 <elliott> or is that just beaeurjocrats?
22:47:17 <ais523> mere sysops can't rewrite history
22:47:22 <elliott> macrohauler: just redirect then
22:47:27 <ais523> it's crat-only on wikipedia too
22:47:47 <elliott> macrohauler: stick around here, we're nice! well sometimes.
22:47:49 <ais523> elliott: we can distort history to take credit for other people's edits, but not attribute them to people other than ourselves
22:48:08 <ais523> except by merging two edits and attributing the resulting merge to the second user
22:48:17 <elliott> do that, for every one of macrohauler's edits
22:48:18 <macrohauler> elliott: i was actually thinking of doing it, have started using irc much more lately
22:48:21 <ais523> note that this probably isn't intentional, and there are rules saying "don't do that"
22:48:42 <nooga> elliott: is the mc server up?
22:48:50 <elliott> nooga: um yes but you don't have the address afaik
22:48:52 <macrohauler> so wait, should i make a redirect or is my username getting changed x)
22:48:59 <ais523> macrohauler: put a note on your userpage saying that you and Fr34k are the same person; also, make sure you have both accounts registered to stop someone else registering one
22:49:03 <elliott> only graue is a bear-o-crat and he's never online
22:49:11 <elliott> macrohauler: don't expect too much on-topicness in here btw :p
22:49:15 <ais523> not that it's likely to happen, but we had an account impersonation troll once
22:49:20 <Sgeo> Would I make a better beu..I can't spell
22:49:39 <ais523> elliott: crats can't rename users on Esolang either, the extension to do so isn't installed; it has to be done directly on the database
22:50:40 <oklopol> Sgeo: you would make an awesome beu
22:51:04 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: SATG? <-- i'm disappointed.
22:51:17 <ais523> "Spreading the word about GNOME 3 is a great way to help out. A positive tweet, dent, status update or post is always appreciated. You can also join our Facebook group or become a friend of GNOME. Additionally, you can help out with one of the many varied tasks involved in producing GNOME. Just check out our contribution page for more details."
22:52:00 <ais523> Mathnerd314: what did you have before?
22:52:08 <ais523> I need to figure out the proper way to flame and/or troll you
22:52:17 <elliott> ais523: he's using arch, that's enough to flame and/or troll anyone
22:52:19 <ais523> not that I actually would, but it's an interesting intellectual exercise
22:52:23 <elliott> if you need more information than that you're bad at trolling
22:52:46 <ais523> elliott: but you need to figure out whether to go for Linux distro flamewar, Linux vs. Windows flamewar, or Linux vs. Mac flamewar
22:52:51 <elliott> Mathnerd314: oh, that's easy
22:52:59 <ais523> and don't you dislike Arch just because Vorpal used it?
22:53:02 <Mathnerd314> elliott: and I haven't switched yet, just decided too
22:53:07 <elliott> no, I used arch for a length of time
22:53:12 <elliott> it was an exercise in pain and suck
22:53:18 <elliott> and the community is worse than ubuntu's
22:53:27 <Mathnerd314> elliott: thus why I'm telling you, to see if there's a better option
22:53:27 <elliott> because the average IQ is the same, but they think they're 10x as knowledgable
22:53:33 <elliott> because they use tiling wms and translucent terminals :P
22:53:37 <elliott> Mathnerd314: uh i usually use debian
22:54:01 <ais523> I use Ubuntu atm because I actually need to get on with my life
22:54:07 <elliott> ais523: hey debian lets you do that
22:54:10 <ais523> and it's what was on here before, and I didn't want to go to the trouble of jumping distro
22:54:11 <elliott> just without so many gradients
22:54:15 <oerjan> <ais523> not that I actually would, but it's an interesting intellectual exercise <-- ais523 secretly has plans to murder us all, not that he would ever _do_ it...
22:54:17 <pikhq> elliott: So, they're basically Gentoo a few years ago.
22:54:37 <elliott> Mathnerd314: but debian isn't
22:54:42 <pikhq> (as far as I'm aware, *most* of the idiots completely and utterly bolted from Gentoo... Probably helps that Gentoo no longer has stage1)
22:54:45 <elliott> pikhq: gentoo users are smarter than arch users, unbeliveably
22:55:15 <ais523> oerjan: note that it's mathematically impossible for me to confirm that statement without lying, because you stated "secretly", so either I don't have secret plans and would lie if I confirmed it, or I do and they wouldn't be secret if I confirmed it
22:55:59 <ais523> elliott: I have decided to stick with Ubuntu Lucid for the time being, though, which is strange as I normally upgrade pretty quickly
22:56:14 <elliott> ais523: 10.10 is pretty good, IMO
22:56:21 <elliott> upgrading ubuntu is "fun" though
22:56:57 * pikhq is quite happy with Debian.
22:57:02 <ais523> it's been 50:50 for me, but every time it's screwed up I've managed to fix it
22:57:18 <macrohauler> now that we all seem to enjoy irc, i'd like some feedback on terpir from anyone interested :3
22:57:39 <elliott> i think i looked at that for one second and then moved along :D
22:57:51 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:57:51 <elliott> macrohauler: i don't quite see why it's embedded in irc
22:57:56 <elliott> [00:01:02] <~jrunyon> define newfunc with output ohai thar [newline] alongside output how are you? without alongside newfunc
22:58:02 <elliott> IMO, the timestamp and <> part of that is just fluff
22:58:16 <elliott> seems like a language in search of a gimmick, frankly :P but then I think that about most esolangs...
22:58:30 <elliott> "[00:00:01] would be executed 2 seconds before [00:00:05] - half the time between messages"
22:58:36 <macrohauler> is thought of to be somewhat like real-time programming in an irc client
22:58:46 <ais523> I like the way it has its own wiki
22:59:03 <elliott> ais523: yes, only the most robust, enterprise esolangs have wikis!
22:59:05 <ais523> it could make for a great competitive programming game, though
22:59:09 <ais523> try to hack each other's programs in realtime
22:59:14 <ais523> by appending bits to the end of your own
22:59:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, appending, or spawning new threads
22:59:24 <ais523> I'd hate to actually play it, though
22:59:33 <elliott> really? that sounds awesome
22:59:35 <ais523> btw, I just emailed myself to backup some files: opinions on whether this is a good idea?
22:59:40 <elliott> you'd have to have a super-concise language
22:59:41 <ais523> elliott: I wouldn't have the concentration
23:00:00 <elliott> ais523: I email myself notes, like passwords that have to obey certain rules, that I'd normally forget
23:00:06 <elliott> because gmail's search is really good :D
23:00:14 <elliott> it's basically a ghetto note-taking app
23:00:24 <ais523> Evolution's isn't bad either, except when it permanently hides all the emails in an entire folder
23:00:30 <elliott> and I can do "from:me in:inbox" to see everything i've sent myself
23:00:36 <ais523> (they're still /there/, just there's no way to tell except screwing around with the FS directly)
23:00:52 <ais523> elliott: oh, I'd just type ais523 into the subject-or-sender box
23:01:11 <oklopol> speaking of awesome languages, we should have some clue-related ring-jerking with elliott some time soon
23:01:18 <elliott> ais523: that makes me see all my to-email-list messages
23:01:30 <elliott> oklopol: only if you've added function refs
23:01:41 <oklopol> oh shit the ball is in my court
23:01:46 <ais523> elliott: oh, I have a separate inbox for those
23:02:01 <elliott> oklopol: ...to my latest version.
23:02:15 <oklopol> well you know maybe some day
23:02:20 <ais523> oklopol: thanks for indirectly giving Esolang its first disambiguation page
23:02:29 <oklopol> actually it was pretty direct
23:02:53 <ais523> except you didn't create it yourself, or did you?
23:03:10 <oklopol> but i did directly ask someone to make it for me
23:03:25 <elliott> grr, i hate the required edit summary for anons
23:03:33 <elliott> if you ever see an anonymous edit with an edit summary like "ASflzkfdsgfdlkjx'd5" that's me :D
23:03:35 <ais523> elliott: it's an anti-spambot measure
23:03:39 <ais523> also, the spambots do that too
23:03:40 <elliott> i know, but it irritates me
23:03:45 <elliott> ais523: i know, that's why it's so great :D
23:03:46 <ais523> elliott: then get an account?
23:03:54 <elliott> ais523: i have one, but logging in is tedious
23:03:59 <ais523> set it to remember the login
23:04:02 <elliott> so i only do it to like, post talk page messages
23:04:10 <elliott> ais523: except i switch OSes too much for that and stuff :D
23:04:11 <ais523> unless you have an aversion to long-term logins
23:04:20 <ais523> elliott: hmm, there should be a way to share cookies between browsers
23:04:30 <ais523> that would really screw with the minds of certain sites, I imagine
23:05:14 <oerjan> is there any reason why you couldn't be logged in from several browsers at once?
23:05:36 <elliott> so it'd need to be cross-partition
23:05:49 <elliott> where one OS can't read one of the FSes
23:05:57 <ais523> you could use a cookie daemon
23:06:01 <ais523> on an entirely different system
23:06:09 <elliott> ais523: on my modem-router!
23:06:14 <ais523> also, ext4 sounds like the sort of system I'd expect OS X to have eventually
23:06:22 <elliott> OS X was going to use ZFS but then didn't
23:06:26 <elliott> I think HFS+ is here to stay :P
23:06:26 <pikhq> Good God, *still* no IANA allocation. What's holding them up?
23:06:27 <ais523> admittedly, I just suggested that because I like the name "cookie daemon"
23:06:31 <fizzie> There are cookie-sync systems that use external servers.
23:06:41 <ais523> pikhq: the IANA don't want to admit it's the end of the world
23:06:49 <elliott> IANA look like this right now: ;__;
23:06:51 <ais523> where do you check to see where the allocation's happened, anyway?
23:06:57 <ais523> *if the allocation's happened
23:07:02 <ais523> elliott: yep, but I mean websitewise
23:07:04 <elliott> ilari probably checks it every 20 seconds!
23:07:10 <ais523> that's one of the things I'd expect the web to be good for
23:07:11 <elliott> ergo we are the most up-to-date source
23:07:28 <elliott> ais523: there's that chart
23:07:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:07:33 <oerjan> the chinese government are holding APNIC hostage to prevent the inevitable rioting in the streets
23:07:43 <pikhq> http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xhtml Here's the IANA address space registry.
23:07:46 <oerjan> it's the only possible explanation
23:07:46 <elliott> the depletion things have been predicting the current day for the past N days, btw :P
23:07:48 <ais523> APNIC = asia? or APNIC = africa? I keep forgetting
23:07:51 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:07:59 <pikhq> APNIC is "Asia & Pacific".
23:08:06 <ais523> elliott: that's becaues it's long since depleted but nobody wants to admit it
23:08:10 <elliott> Asiapacific? be more spacific
23:08:14 <oerjan> ais523: asia. africa is still trivial in comparison.
23:08:25 <elliott> ais523: no, it's because the models think it should have happened already
23:08:25 <ais523> how did level 3 end up with two /8s?
23:08:28 <elliott> ais523: it only hasn't because IANA is stalling
23:08:29 <pikhq> AfriNIC is probably going to be the *last* RIR to be depleted.
23:08:35 <ais523> (and do they actually use them?)
23:08:37 <elliott> ais523: (previously APNIC were stalling but they have surely submitted by now)
23:09:21 <ais523> anyway, what will really cause fireworks is when 10/8 gets allocated
23:09:32 <pikhq> elliott: It's easy to tell when they started realising that IPv4 space was precious. :)
23:09:36 <ais523> it'll be like allocating 1/8 but on a much larger scale
23:09:45 <elliott> ais523: will it ever be allocated?
23:09:48 <pikhq> ais523: 10/8 cannot be allocated.
23:09:55 <ais523> I know, but it'd be funny if they did
23:09:59 <ais523> and shock people into using IPv6
23:10:05 <fizzie> Prior to CIDR (pre-'93) if you needed more than 64k addresses, /8 would have been it.
23:10:05 <elliott> (is that the correct notation?)
23:10:13 <pikhq> ais523: They'd have to actually replace every router.
23:10:13 <elliott> fizzie: this is from 1994, 1995
23:10:17 <elliott> fizzie: the allocations i quoted
23:10:31 <ais523> and 14/8 was reclaimed from a previously reserved use, after all
23:10:38 <elliott> they're probably preparing the biggest party ever
23:10:48 <pikhq> elliott: Everything but 192.168/16 is publically allocated.
23:10:50 <elliott> for some definition of probably
23:10:55 <elliott> pikhq: allocate 192.168/16!
23:11:02 <elliott> and whatever prefix of 127 is reserved!
23:11:03 <pikhq> elliott: Replace all routers!
23:11:22 <fizzie> Whole 127/8 is for loopback.
23:11:26 <pikhq> 127/8 is all loopback.
23:11:42 <fizzie> Allocate 240/4 instead, that's even bigger block.
23:11:53 <elliott> wait, no, it's /0 isn't it
23:12:01 <fizzie> (And also problematical when it comes to software.)
23:12:02 <ais523> so currently, 39/8, 102/8, 103/8, 104/8, 106/8, 179/8, 185/8 are free
23:12:07 <elliott> /0 is the entire space, right?
23:12:15 <elliott> and 127/1 is half the space?
23:12:25 <ais523> 127/1 is the same half as 0/1
23:12:27 <ais523> 128/1 is the other half
23:12:31 <pikhq> fizzie: 240/4, eh? Ouch.
23:12:34 <elliott> erm, can ips start with 0.?
23:12:37 <elliott> if not, then surely it's 1/1 and 129/1
23:12:53 <fizzie> They can, but 0/8 is reserved.
23:13:05 <ais523> they can, it's used for "local identification"
23:13:14 <fizzie> It's 0/1 and 128/1 if you want to divide into two halves.
23:13:33 <pikhq> elliott: 0/8 is link-local.
23:13:37 <elliott> because you could visit it as 0
23:13:39 <fizzie> I used to have static routes for 0/1 and 128/1 somewhere for an explicit "override default route except not really" somewhere.
23:13:52 <ais523> I saw an interesting article on why 240/4 wasn't used ages ago (I'm not sure where); apparently it was because routers didn't understand it, and upgrading them to understand it would be just as difficult as just upgrading to IPv6 so why don't we do that instead
23:13:57 <fizzie> Or maybe it was for 0/127 and 8000::/1.
23:14:00 <elliott> come on, wouldn't you put 0:6667 into your client
23:14:05 <elliott> would you not go WOOO THIS IS AWESOME
23:14:31 <ais523> I still think it was awesome when ARIN put a box on 1.2.3.4 that did nothing but listen for traffic and respond to pings
23:14:36 <ais523> to see just how badly it was being DDOSed
23:14:46 <elliott> 1.2.3.4 can't be addressed as "0"
23:14:50 <elliott> it is, therefore, inferior to 0.0.0.0
23:14:51 <ais523> and the answer was, unusably so, they had to take it down after a while
23:14:56 <ais523> anyway, time to go home
23:14:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:15:05 <elliott> PING 0.0.0.0 (127.0.0.1) 56(84) bytes of data.
23:15:07 <elliott> forgot it was used for that :
23:15:21 <elliott> "connect: invalid argument" nice :D
23:17:57 <zzo38> Is zero a valid IP address?
23:17:59 <macrohauler> ais523: thanks for the tip, terpir is now evolving into an IRC RPG using live programming ;'D
23:18:42 <fizzie> For some values of "valid".
23:18:47 <fizzie> It's not valid for global unicast use.
23:18:50 <fizzie> 0.0.0.0/8 - Addresses in this block refer to source hosts on "this"
23:18:50 <fizzie> network. Address 0.0.0.0/32 may be used as a source address for this
23:18:51 <fizzie> host on this network; other addresses within 0.0.0.0/8 may be used to
23:18:51 <fizzie> refer to specified hosts on this network ([RFC1122], Section
23:19:03 <pikhq> zzo38: RFC 5735 defines it as the source address for link-local packets.
23:19:33 <fizzie> Because INADDR_ANY == 0, it also has some trouble when it comes to the sockets interface.
23:21:12 <elliott> macrohauler: bah, not as good as MY version of it
23:21:28 <elliott> <bot> st1: 349 349 3498 293 48 28 47
23:21:36 <elliott> <bot> st2: 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 >9< 93 5 6
23:21:38 <elliott> <p2> OAU*@*$YH(@UOKE()RJF*G£&Y%
23:21:56 <elliott> ofc you'd have to cap the execution speed way down :D
23:22:45 <zzo38> Do you have a server which I can make remote version control system with?
23:23:41 <elliott> zzo38: you're making your own VCS too?
23:24:40 <zzo38> elliott: Actually that isn't what I was asking about. It was suggested I can use VCS for storing TeXnicard and other things, and it should probably be remote VCS so that we have two copies.
23:24:59 <zzo38> (I could make my own VCS too, but that isn't what I was asking about.)
23:25:05 <elliott> zzo38: You can sign up to http://github.com/ to get free git hosting.
23:25:22 <elliott> Or http://repo.or.cz/ if you're old-school.
23:25:41 <elliott> Or http://patch-tag.com/ or http://darcsden.com/ if you're a darcs person...
23:26:28 <fizzie> Or that thing, what is it, bitbucket, for mercurial?
23:26:31 <fizzie> I think it's free too.
23:26:46 <elliott> fizzie: But nobody likes Mercurial.
23:26:57 <elliott> (Gregor doesn't count as a person.)
23:28:38 <olsner> everyone likes git, except mercurial fans
23:28:52 <olsner> haskell people like darcs in theory, but git in practice
23:28:54 <coppro> even monotone fans like git
23:29:07 <elliott> olsner: i like darcs in practice
23:29:18 <elliott> olsner: well scapegoat is better but :)
23:29:25 <elliott> there's nothing wrong with darcs... although it has a stupid merge algorithm
23:29:31 <elliott> and "patch theory" is bullshit
23:29:36 <elliott> but the cherry-picking is unmatched
23:29:43 <elliott> olsner: admittedly for ghc-scale projects even darcs 2 is unusable
23:29:51 <elliott> but for most projects darcs 2 is very usable
23:30:41 <olsner> I haven't used darcs 2...
23:30:51 <zzo38> I did in fact think of a simple protocol which could be used: send the ASCII SOH, the username, the commit ID, the list of files and sizes (and text/binary mode), and the data of the files. And then it check for changes, and make list, and then you can use another command for receiving the data.
23:31:03 <olsner> but darcs 1 instantly went into the "take forever, do nothing" state as soon as I tried "branching" ny having repos with different sets of patches
23:31:11 <elliott> olsner: yeah, there were edge-cases
23:31:15 <elliott> one really big exponential one
23:31:21 <elliott> olsner: but darcs 2 focused on performance
23:31:38 <elliott> Darcs 2 introduces format changes designed to improve performance and safety. The changes are the hashed repository format and the darcs-2 patch format. The hashed repository format can be used in a manner that is interchangeable with older darcs -- darcs 1 cannot read the hashed format, but darcs 2 allows you to exchange patches between repositories in new and old formats. The darcs-2 patch format requires a repository conversion that is not bac
23:31:38 <elliott> kwards-compatible, so projects switching to darcs-2 patch format will have require that all their users upgrade to darcs 2.
23:31:41 <olsner> I think I got the "nothing fucking works" edge-case
23:31:44 <elliott> Identical primitive changes no longer conflict. See below for a discussion of these implications.
23:31:54 <elliott> olsner: I'm not saying darcs 1 is any good, just that darcs 2 is :P
23:32:08 <elliott> such important projects as C-INTERCAL were maintained in darcs until esr decided to be a jerkass!
23:32:23 <olsner> haha, darcs had its chance and blew it, I'm ignoring it completely now since git is good enough
23:32:45 <j-invariant> that's what happens when you write a program in haskell
23:32:53 <elliott> olsner: git's review of the repository is awful, though
23:32:53 <olsner> (just for the heck of it: I have had better luck using CVS than darcs)
23:33:01 <elliott> olsner: oh stop trolling :)
23:33:08 <elliott> <olsner> haha, darcs had its chance and blew it, I'm ignoring it completely now since git is good enough
23:33:12 <zzo38> I don't need all the services usable by github and repo.or.cz and so on, and I don't want to do it by email or webpages.
23:33:14 <elliott> i realise you're not serious but this kind of thinking stinks
23:33:16 <olsner> well, it's not even trolling though
23:33:19 <elliott> like all this shit is in competition
23:33:30 <elliott> fighting for users is stupid
23:33:33 <elliott> zzo38: repo.or.cz is not based on webpages
23:33:36 <elliott> you just sign up for webpages
23:33:39 <elliott> and then use the git command-line tool
23:34:09 <zzo38> But I still need email and SSH to sign up??
23:34:19 <elliott> zzo38: git handles pushing with SSH
23:34:26 <olsner> ok, that part is not completely serious... it's more like git is sufficiently close for my needs that I'm not re-evaluating new versions of darcs
23:34:43 <olsner> but I *have* more successfully used CVS than darcs
23:35:09 <elliott> ok, that part is not completely serious... it's more like C++ is sufficiently close for my needs that I'm not re-evaluating new versions of GHC
23:35:16 <elliott> but I *have* more successfully used Pascal than GHC
23:37:05 <zzo38> Does that mean I can do it on Cygwin?
23:37:12 <olsner> hmm, the difference between git and darcs is not quite comparable to C++ vs GHC I think
23:37:31 <elliott> olsner: well C++ has a stupid, backwards view of the universe, like git :)
23:37:35 <elliott> git doesn't even know what a change is, or a patch
23:37:53 <elliott> zzo38: Try this: http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/
23:37:59 <elliott> zzo38: It's the best git for Windows.
23:38:15 <elliott> zzo38: http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/detail?name=Git-1.7.3.1-preview20101002.exe
23:38:23 <zzo38> Actually I just tried it in Cygwin, I have the commands ssh-keygen, ssh, git, already installed.
23:38:32 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, but Cygwin git is very slow because Cygwin is slow.
23:39:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
23:39:35 <zzo38> How do I specify which files should be in the repository?
23:39:51 <elliott> zzo38: "git add x" adds the file x to the current revision.
23:39:58 <elliott> Then "git commit -m 'My commit message.'" makes a commit.
23:40:08 <elliott> You can also say "git commit -am 'blah'" if you don't want to have to "git add" every file you have changed first.
23:40:23 <elliott> Also you can say just "git commit" and it will start an editor to let you enter a longer commit message on multiple lines.
23:41:44 <zzo38> Why is a commit message mandatory? And what if I just want a file that lists which files belong in the repository?
23:42:09 <elliott> zzo38: Because it shows the commit messages in the log.
23:42:14 <elliott> And that isn't how git works, so you cannot do that.
23:42:29 <elliott> If you just "git add" then, you can just use "git commit -a" later, to make it commit all the files in the repository.
23:43:35 <pikhq> elliott: I'd think that git on Cygwin wouldn't be *too* bad.
23:43:39 <pikhq> I mean, it's not using fork.
23:43:50 <elliott> pikhq: Worse when git was partly shell scripts ...
23:44:03 <pikhq> Ah, yeah, that would be terrible.
23:44:19 <pikhq> Such a shame Microsoft can't just add a freaking fork() call.
23:45:00 <pikhq> The NT kernel already has such a system call; Win32 just doesn't expose it.
23:45:25 <pikhq> The POSIX subsystem uses it, though.
23:45:44 <elliott> pikhq: can you write a win32 dll using the posix subsystem?
23:46:27 <pikhq> No, but you can write a POSIX program that calls out to Win32.
23:47:23 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, why can't you go the other way?
23:47:46 <pikhq> Fuck you, that's why.
23:48:42 <pikhq> Anyways, even with fork() spawning processes will probably be pricy for Cygwin.
23:48:57 <pikhq> For various reasons, Win32 makes processes expensive to spawn in general.
23:49:44 <pikhq> Unlike POSIX, where that's what it does best.
23:50:52 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, could cygwin harness the posix subsystem?
23:51:01 <elliott> cygwin's fork() is basically "restart this process, and skip to here"
23:51:09 <elliott> and very slow, since it has to restore so much stuff
23:51:22 <pikhq> Not without a lot of work.
23:51:52 <coppro> IIRC someone has written a fork version which operates reasonably quickly
23:51:55 <coppro> by skipping all the win32 overhead
23:51:56 <zzo38> Are there any simpler version control systems?
23:52:02 <coppro> the actual kernel overhead is small
23:52:13 <pikhq> coppro: Fork is *actually in the NT kernel*.
23:52:29 <coppro> pikhq: wait, directly, including memory set up and everything?
23:52:45 <coppro> my understanding was there was a process split primitive, but it was not equivalent to fork
23:52:49 <pikhq> elliott: Because the subsystems are basically completely seperate things that happen to run on the same kernel.
23:52:55 <elliott> zzo38: None that are of any use. git is very simple.
23:53:02 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, it's for the sake of POSIX.
23:53:07 <elliott> pikhq: Could Cygwin run entirely in the POSIX subsystem? :P
23:53:14 <pikhq> coppro: Windows has a full, entire POSIX subsystem.
23:53:29 <pikhq> elliott: No, but a full UNIX userspace can.
23:53:38 <elliott> pikhq: I mean [could Cygwin be ported to].
23:53:45 <pikhq> elliott: No point.
23:54:00 <pikhq> All Cygwin is is a Win32 libc and patches to make stuff work.
23:54:21 <pikhq> And said libc is also a partial kernel emulator.
23:54:49 <elliott> pikhq: erm it's also a libposix, isn't it
23:55:07 <pikhq> When you've just straight-up got libc, you might as well just install Debian.
23:56:00 <elliott> 12:37:38 <fizzie> You find the strangest things when digging through old home directories; here's a "cp" replacement that copies files by starting two processes, having the first read the input file, the second write the output file, and doing all communication between processes by using the SIGUSR1 and SIGUSR2 signals as the "dit" and "dah" symbols for morse code, and suitable pauses to distinguish words.
23:56:06 <elliott> fizzie: That is the greatest thing ever created.
23:56:25 <elliott> pikhq: ^ This is Kitten's cp.
23:56:31 <pikhq> ... Cross root-filesystem cp.
23:56:51 <elliott> 12:38:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure why it doesn't just use those two signals as "on" and "off" events (or just one signal to toggle) and timing for even the dit/dah distinguishement; but it's reasonably silly as-is.
23:57:00 <elliott> 12:45:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it doesn't work for non-text files?
23:57:01 <elliott> 12:45:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for using timing: would be unreliable on a non-realtime OS
23:57:01 <elliott> 12:45:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: Right. But be honest, how often do you need to copy non-text files anyway? Almost never!
23:57:12 <elliott> fizzie: Make it convert bits in the file to "zero" and "one" words first.
23:57:27 <elliott> So it ends up doing "zero one one zero zero one zero one one ..." in Morse code.
23:57:52 <fizzie> It's not exactly blazing fast now either.
23:58:21 <fizzie> It was for a "unix programming" course, the assignment was to use signals for something.
23:58:54 <pikhq> I'd have probably just implemented pikhq coreutils kill or something.
23:59:04 <pikhq> But that's more awesome.
00:01:14 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:02:32 <fizzie> if (t > (data->pause_char+data->pause_word)/2 && t <= 2*data->pause_word) {
00:02:35 <fizzie> log_debug("[libsilly/morse] Based on the timing, appending a space to %d.", ch);
00:02:58 <elliott> fizzie: Aww, I was hoping you just wrote it when you needed to copy a file one day.
00:03:59 <elliott> 14:22:35 <oerjan> i used it in Malbolge Unshackled to create an infinite lazy datastructure containing IORefs. afaik that usage is perfectly safe.
00:04:29 <elliott> !haskell mdo iorefs <- (:) (unsafeInterleaveIO newIORef) iorefs
00:04:32 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:05:32 <Sgeo> But... do doesn't DO anything!
00:07:21 <elliott> GHC used to support the flag -XRecursiveDo, which enabled the keyword mdo, precisely as described in A recursive do for Haskell, but this is now deprecated. Instead of mdo { Q; e }, write do { rec Q; e }.
00:13:18 <elliott> justOnes = do { rec { xs <- Just (1:xs) }
00:13:18 <elliott> ; return (map negate xs) }
00:13:27 <elliott> "As you can guess justOnes will evaluate to Just [-1,-1,-1,...."
00:13:44 <elliott> see http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.3/html/users_guide/syntax-extns.html#recursive-do-notation
00:14:27 <zzo38> I don't need all the features of other systems. Only commands should be have is: send, receive, list, logs. And then have files in the directory such as ".vcsconfig" and ".vcsstate" to tell such things as which files should be listed, text/binary, server to connect to, which is your current version if you want to upgrade, and so on.
00:14:33 <zzo38> Is there any such things?
00:15:35 <elliott> zzo38: No. So you get to write your own!!
00:16:50 <zzo38> I can write my own but I would still need a remote server for running this system.
00:18:03 <elliott> my server is far too loaded, with irc logbots
00:19:10 <zzo38> It should also be acceptable to have multiple servers in case someone else wants copies of it too.
00:21:00 <zzo38> I suppose there is also the way to make it without server, in case you want to copy the packets by disks or by IRC or whatever.
00:25:18 <elliott> greebdogifiericificjiojewofijaejgdfklm
00:32:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I should email Stony Brook
00:32:54 <elliott> Sgeo: Email..st..for what purpose
00:33:18 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/silly.ogg <-- have something extremely silly I just wrote
00:33:24 <Sgeo> To try to figure out if I could get accepted into grad school or not, try to figure out what's going on
00:34:00 <Sgeo> Gregor, I like it
00:34:14 <elliott> I'm not sure me and quintopia have accurately conveyed just how worthless Sgeo's degree is going to be.
00:34:19 <elliott> Shall we have another bash at it?
00:34:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: No. No you could not.
00:34:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Transfer, you dumbass!
00:34:48 <elliott> There, that's enough work for me.
00:34:52 <elliott> quintopia: we're awaiting your statement.
00:35:03 <Sgeo> I want something to show my dad
00:35:12 <Sgeo> A response from them would probably be sufficient
00:35:24 <elliott> Sgeo: YOU CAN TRANSFER WITHOUT ASKING YOUR FATHER FIRST
00:35:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: You may have trouble even transferring.
00:35:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: As most of your classes have been *useless*.
00:36:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, my English classes haven't been, possibly
00:36:13 <pikhq> Those will transfer just fine, I bet.
00:36:23 <pikhq> But you're looking at literally having *the entire CS curriculum* to do.
00:36:39 <elliott> pikhq: Better than starting from square 1, still.
00:36:41 <Sgeo> I think that's what my dad is getting at. I'd have trouble getting homework done in non-computer courses at a more difficult college
00:36:47 -!- Mannerisky has left (?).
00:36:55 <elliott> Sgeo: So transfer and keep your non-CS courses.
00:37:25 <Sgeo> I still have more non-CS courses to do maybe. I'm not sure
00:37:32 <pikhq> *I* can get my homework done. And I'm a guy who actually spent a couple years not doing homework in high school until the very last minute.
00:37:40 <pikhq> "The very last minute" was literally "finals week".
00:37:43 <j-invariant> "You don't need a type system to avoid SQL injection, you just need to stop being terrible at programming."
00:37:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Getting homework done is easier when you're not at a shitty school with tedious work...
00:39:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: You'd have a more useful degree if you went to a 2-year college and got an associates.
00:40:27 <zzo38> Can I find a code to compute the message hash? I should use a fast one but secure.
00:40:32 <Gregor> All this hatin' on Sgeo is getting in the way of people praising my beautiful work X-P
00:40:50 <pikhq> Gregor: How dare you.
00:40:57 <Sgeo> Gregor, move it out of tmp and someplace more permanent
00:41:08 <Gregor> Sgeo: tmp is actually pretty permanent X-D
00:41:21 <elliott> We're not hatin' on Sgeo, we're hatin' on Sgeo's college.
00:41:28 <elliott> We're trying to help him to not be stuck in shitland with shit degree.
00:41:46 <elliott> What's your course called again Sgeo?
00:41:51 <elliott> Computer and Information Systems?
00:41:56 <Sgeo> Computer Programming and Information Systems
00:42:16 <elliott> Gregor: Sgeo thinks he might be able to get into grad school at Stony Brook with a degree in Computer Programming and Information Systems from Farmingdale State College.
00:42:28 <Gregor> I refuse to comment on this matter.
00:42:35 <elliott> Me and pikhq are _trying_ to beat logic into the man.
00:42:38 <Sgeo> elliott, right now, I just want to contact someone to confirm whether I can or not.
00:42:48 <pikhq> Gregor: The CIS program in question has data structures as a senior-level course.
00:42:48 <elliott> j-invariant: With that degree, his chances are pretty much nil.
00:43:04 <pikhq> Gregor: And yes, that class *is* the equivalent of what you probably did your freshman year.
00:43:09 <elliott> j-invariant: We're trying to spare him going to college again at a respectable university which would involve starting from scratch.
00:43:18 <coppro> probably 2nd year here
00:43:30 <Sgeo> elliott, I'll be starting from scratch no matter what, right?
00:43:44 <elliott> Sgeo: You'll almost certainly be able to keep your non-computer courses.
00:43:56 <elliott> And possibly even some of the computer ones, but pikhq will know more than I.
00:43:59 <j-invariant> apparently it's really hard to get into uni these days
00:44:12 <j-invariant> since aparently everyone is applying ??? due the recession ??
00:44:18 <j-invariant> this makes zero sense to me, but that's what newspaper says
00:44:29 <pikhq> elliott: He will probably be able to get one transferred as the intro to CS class.
00:44:41 <elliott> Sgeo: So: No, you won't be starting from scratch.
00:44:54 -!- augur has joined.
00:45:02 <elliott> If you transfer now, you'll almost certainly be able to skip 90% of the non-computer shit, plus a bit of the CS.
00:45:07 <elliott> j-invariant: "Knoll's Law of Media Accuracy: Everything you read in the newspapers is absolutely true except for that rare story of which you happen to have firsthand knowledge."
00:45:15 <pikhq> elliott: He will need math, though.
00:45:26 <elliott> pikhq: Better than starting from scratch.
00:45:28 <pikhq> elliott: His CIS program requires almost none.
00:45:32 <Sgeo> I'm taking a statistics course now.
00:45:32 <elliott> hey doesn't augur go to stony brook
00:45:34 <Sgeo> Does that help?
00:45:49 <augur> im at university of maryland now
00:45:50 <elliott> Sgeo: But point is, you'll have a lot less work to do than starting from scratch :P
00:45:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: If it's not shitty it'll probably transfer, and will probably be a degree requirement.
00:46:11 <elliott> augur: could Sgeo get into grad school for CS with a degree titled "Computer Programming and Information Systems" from SUNY Farmingdale
00:46:30 <elliott> <pikhq> Gregor: The CIS program in question has data structures as a senior-level course. <pikhq> elliott: He will need math, though. <pikhq> elliott: His CIS program requires almost none.
00:46:36 <augur> no idea, but i cant imagine why he couldnt
00:46:39 <elliott> just gettin' an opinion here :P
00:46:40 <augur> Sgeo: you went to farmingdale?
00:46:46 <Sgeo> augur, going to
00:46:51 <elliott> augur: his course is /really/ shitty
00:47:04 <augur> i didnt know you're on long island!
00:47:06 <elliott> i'ma let pikhq come up with words to describe how shitty it is
00:47:09 <elliott> because i lack the vocabulary
00:47:10 <augur> we couldve hung out!
00:47:18 <pikhq> It requires more *business classes* than math!
00:47:28 <pikhq> IT REQUIRES BUSINESS CLASSES, FOR GOD'S SAKE
00:47:37 <elliott> but it's about INFORMATION SYSTEMS
00:48:51 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, that data structures course *isn't even required*.
00:49:10 <elliott> augur: TALK SOME SENSE INTO SGEO
00:49:37 <Sgeo> augur, I want something to present to my dad more than "#esoteric says so"
00:49:43 <Sgeo> Thus, an email
00:49:55 <pikhq> You could take "Programming in Visual Basic" to meet your basic programming requirement!
00:50:02 <augur> not sbu university
00:50:11 <elliott> the most respectable university!
00:50:15 <coppro> are we making fun of Sgeo's institution again?
00:50:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, the Data Structures course is in C++, so that makes no sense, but yes
00:50:18 <pikhq> elliott: Then put your PIN number into the ATM machine.
00:50:20 <augur> sbu - stony brook university
00:50:26 <augur> I BET YOU SAY PIN NUMBER TOO
00:50:37 <elliott> nothing wrong with RAS syndrome
00:50:46 <elliott> you should know that, mr. descriptivist :P
00:51:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Why are you so hung up on what your dad thinks?
00:51:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's pretty clear that he has no fucking clue.
00:51:55 <elliott> bcuz his dad is god incarnate!
00:52:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: If you don't transfer to a more respectable university you will be qualified to ask, "Would you like fries with that?".
00:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> nothing wrong with RAS syndrome ← other than being pointless.
00:53:20 <elliott> pikhq: that requires a degree in advanced McDonalds!
00:53:38 <elliott> "PIN number" is easier to read in a lot of cases
00:53:44 <elliott> you don't read "PIN" as "Personal Identification Number"
00:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Now we have moved inescapably into the subjective, so there's no point arguing further.
00:54:52 <elliott> hmm, the ClearBF authors have edited the page, but not looked at either its talk page or their account's talk page
00:54:58 <elliott> augur: you argue with him, you have the CREDENTIALS
00:55:11 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/silly.ogg <-- Hey guys, still have something extremely silly I just wrote X-P
00:55:21 <elliott> Gregor: GAVE UP AFTER 15S DUDE
00:55:23 <pikhq> Gregor: Needs more cowbell.
00:55:41 <augur> elliott: im not going to argue with someone over the pointedness of something like RAQ
00:55:47 <Gregor> elliott: Actually, the cowbell comes in at 18s.
00:55:54 <elliott> Gregor: INSUFFICIENTLY SOON
00:55:56 <elliott> ALSO PROBABLY NOT ENOUGH OF IT
00:56:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I'm just trolltrolling :P
00:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> First you invent a trombute and completely fail at playing it, and now this!
00:56:44 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: lots of language is pointless on the surface, and its not subjective since we can do studies. does this pertain to RAS? who knows. its not a significant enough thing about language to worry about.
00:56:54 <elliott> My favourite instrument is the xylotheremin.
00:56:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, this is awesome :P
00:57:03 <elliott> You just sort of hold your hands above the relevant keys.
00:57:07 <elliott> augur: no, you have to kill him now
00:57:12 * augur kills Phantom_Hoover
00:57:27 * augur kills Phantom_Hoover irl
00:57:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes we do, Adhamhnan.
00:57:43 <elliott> Or however the fuck you spell your retarded name.
00:57:46 <pikhq> augur: The issue of "which is preferable", however, is inherently subjective when both options are equally understandable and natural-seeming.
00:57:51 <fizzie> Gregor: Perhaps you should switch to a zeusaphone.
00:57:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you don't know where i live either
00:58:01 * Sgeo sends the email
00:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I know you live in Hexham and I know your surname.
00:58:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Good luck with that :P
00:58:26 <augur> pikhq: indeed, and hence why i said its not significant
00:58:41 <pikhq> That said, I still think RAS syndrome is silly.
00:59:01 <pikhq> My thoughts on the matter don't change anything at all, of course, but it's still silly.
00:59:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I looked it up once and there weren't any famous people at all.
00:59:16 <pikhq> And obviously the work of the Department of Redundancy Department.
00:59:28 <elliott> pikhq: You have no idea how much redundancy the typical English sentence contains, dude :P
00:59:42 <augur> language is incredibly redundant
00:59:45 <elliott> pikhq: You no idea how redundancy typical English sentence contains.
00:59:51 <augur> for the same reasons that communications protocols have redundancy
00:59:55 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: his surname is Hird
01:00:08 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I do know that most all human-relevant data has very low entropy.
01:00:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's enough that finding me will be non-trivial :P
01:00:26 <augur> pikhq: we operate over very noisy channels
01:00:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, it's the sort of number you could kill before breakfast.
01:00:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: we're not listed
01:00:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: so GOOD LUCK
01:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ALSO THERE MUST BE LIKE 2 SECONDARY SCHOOLS THERE
01:03:32 <elliott> One middle school too afaik :P
01:04:01 <elliott> Yeeeeess... there are two systems and we have the three-tier one.
01:04:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm sure there's only like two people in Scotland with YOUR name :P
01:04:20 <elliott> j-invariant: 8-12 year olds
01:04:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, one of them is you.
01:04:42 <elliott> j-invariant: implement my language!
01:04:47 <elliott> (I'm already implementing it)
01:04:54 <elliott> hmm there was some problem with it, wonder what it was :D
01:06:40 <Sgeo> elliott, how's Amethyst coming?
01:07:01 <elliott> Sgeo: have i mentioned that it has sandboxing
01:07:12 <Sgeo> Now you have. This makes me feel happy.
01:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you should return the favour and get a transfer.
01:08:23 <elliott> Sgeo: In fact, EVERYTHING is sandboxed!
01:08:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:13:34 * Sgeo goes to watch more DS9
01:19:25 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: leaving).
01:19:46 -!- nooga has joined.
01:26:20 <zzo38> Is there a way to make git work with a list file?
01:26:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:28:42 <zzo38> What is a SSH randomart image?
01:29:54 <j-invariant> zzo38: well I think gpg generates them but I am not sure why
01:30:35 <zzo38> I am using the program "ssh-keygen" though.
01:33:51 <elliott> zzo38: I think it's some thing that shows your public key or something.
01:34:21 <elliott> zzo38: BTW, git was created by Linus Torvalds to manage the Linux kernel.
01:35:55 <zzo38> Does git allow specifying whether a file is text or binary file?
01:36:26 <elliott> zzo38: It automatically recognises binary files, but yes, you can: http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/gitattributes.html
01:36:44 <elliott> zzo38: For instance "*.foo -crlf" would make all .foo files binary.
01:37:08 <elliott> -crlf is deprecated, -text is equivalent.
01:37:15 <elliott> You can also tell it that the file is text by saying text.
01:37:19 <zzo38> Currently I have no binary files to upload to the repository, I want to make all files as text.
01:37:33 <elliott> zzo38: It behaves like that by default, I bleieve.
01:37:43 <elliott> zzo38: But to be sure, you could do:
01:37:52 <elliott> If you want to interoperate with a source code management system that enforces end-of-line normalization, or you simply want all text files in your repository to be normalized, you should instead set the text attribute to "auto" for all files.
01:38:01 <elliott> zzo38: So just create a .gitattributes file with the contents:
01:38:24 <pikhq> Hmm. Google doesn't help when finding Elliott.
01:38:34 <elliott> pikhq: I...stop talking me :P
01:39:01 <pikhq> Especially as there is a second Elliott Hird in Hexham.
01:41:23 <zzo38> I am a bit confused with using git. How can I make a shell script that adds the files according to a list file, and then sends all changed files when I tell them to send?
01:42:08 <elliott> zzo38: Is there something wrong with this?
01:42:13 <elliott> $ git commit -a commits all files in the repository
01:42:17 <elliott> $ git add foo adds a new file to the repository
01:42:22 <elliott> $ git rm foo removes a file
01:42:32 <elliott> zzo38: That's equivalent to having a list file, except to add you use "add", and to remove you use "rm".
01:42:40 <elliott> zzo38: You can use "git status" to see what files are in the repository.
01:42:44 <elliott> Files that aren't in the repository are shown with ? in front.
01:43:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:45:15 <zzo38> Do I need: git commit; git remote add origin ...; git push --all origin; like it tells me on the webpage?
01:45:29 <zzo38> When I type "git status" it lists all file under "untracked files" with # at the front.
01:45:39 <zzo38> I do not want to upload all of the files.
01:45:43 <elliott> zzo38: You only need to do "git remote add origin ..." and "git push --all origin" once.
01:45:47 <elliott> That will not add all of the files.
01:45:55 <zzo38> So I type "git add" and the filenames?
01:46:05 <elliott> zzo38: From then on, you just need to do "git commit -a" to make a local commit, and "git push" to give your changes to the server.
01:47:28 <elliott> zzo38: Actually do not do "push --all", just do "git push origin".
01:47:40 <elliott> After you make your first commit with the files, of course.
01:52:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:58:19 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:02:50 <zzo38> Can it be told to only add files that are changed, and tell it that files that are not part of the list are removed (but still kept on the local filesystem and in the deleted files area of the server)?
02:03:11 <elliott> zzo38: It does only add files that are changed, if you do "git commit -a".
02:03:18 <elliott> zzo38: And yes, it does not commit files that are not on the list.
02:03:22 <elliott> To remove a file from the list use "git rm filename".
02:05:26 <zzo38> Do I need --cached option when removing files?
02:06:41 <elliott> "git rm foo" will not touch your current files.
02:07:09 <elliott> zzo38: "git rm --cached foo" removes foo without removing it from your current directory.
02:07:38 <elliott> zzo38: If you have removed some files from your directory without using "git rm foo", just use "git add -u" and git will delete the files that are no longer there from the list.
02:07:56 <zzo38> Do I do like this? git add -- `cat vcslist`
02:08:12 <elliott> zzo38: No, you just do "git add somefile" to add somefile to the list.
02:08:16 <elliott> "git rm somefile" removes somefile from the list.
02:08:20 <elliott> "git status" shows you the list.
02:12:00 <zzo38> What happens if I use "git add" with a file that has already been added and not modified?
02:12:31 <zzo38> Does that make it safe to do so?
02:12:37 <pikhq> elliott: Börk börk börk.
02:12:40 <elliott> zzo38: But why would you want to?
02:12:56 <zzo38> In case I keep a separate list file.
02:13:04 <elliott> zzo38: Why? Git already has a list file.
02:15:32 <quintopia> i was out having a life and risking it and getting drunk and meeting hot girls elliot
02:15:41 <elliott> well, Sgeo is more important
02:15:54 <quintopia> but now i am fully willing to support you in your assessment of sgeo's degree as worthless
02:16:04 <elliott> appreciated but SADLY BELATED.
02:16:54 <quintopia> relay my feelings of disgust to him next time he comes around
02:20:55 <Sgeo> Erlang won't get out of my head1
02:21:44 <elliott> Sgeo: amethyst has concurrency
02:22:16 <Sgeo> Amethyst has to be compilable to machine code, and also capable of running on BEAM, and on Android
02:22:35 <Sgeo> Because BEAM's awesome?
02:22:40 <elliott> Sgeo: Not as awesome as machine code.
02:23:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Android, sure, that would be possible.
02:27:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:27:47 <zzo38> Hay, it's work now!!!
02:28:21 <elliott> zzo38: I see your commit. You should do: git config --global user.name zzo38
02:28:33 <elliott> zzo38: Also you did not add a commit message?
02:28:50 <elliott> http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/blob/c69b4f72ef872a35db284b772b06a82e47cc0af3:/vcslist You should probably not track vcslist in the repository
02:29:08 <Sgeo> There are people who don't do commit messages, besides the other person on my project?
02:29:26 <elliott> Sgeo: <quintopia> but now i am fully willing to support you in your assessment of sgeo's degree as worthless <quintopia> relay my feelings of disgust to him next time he comes around
02:30:50 <pikhq> "Inside sources" claim that IANA's been asked to do the final allocation, and they just need to finish the press release before doing so.
02:31:13 <zzo38> elliott: Why shouldn't I track vcslist in the repository?
02:31:23 <elliott> zzo38: Well, it just seems strange to.
02:31:23 <pikhq> Not that that means much... Even if that's BS, final allocation's within the week.
02:31:44 <elliott> zzo38: You could call it MANIFEST instead of vcslist, that's quite common.
02:32:00 <zzo38> And, I did the git config after that commit I realized, so hopefully next time it will use the username and email registered with repo.or.cz.
02:32:46 <zzo38> And didn't I add a commit message?
02:33:06 <zzo38> I just used "`date`" as the commit message, because it is mandatory.
02:33:29 <elliott> zzo38: You should describe your changes in the commit message, so that other people can see what you have changed.
02:33:33 <elliott> Otherwise it is hard to look through the history.
02:33:40 <elliott> That is the purpose of using a version control system.
02:34:13 <zzo38> I do not always remember what changes I made. I just make some changes and then send them when I want to send it.
02:34:42 <elliott> zzo38: If you do "git diff", you can see what changes you have made. Also, you can do "git commit" every time you make a significant change, and then do that multiple times before pushing.
02:34:49 <elliott> You can commit as many changes as you want before pushing.
02:35:26 <zzo38> And it does not seem to treat the files properly, I looked at the files and it says "\r" at the end of each line.
02:35:58 <zzo38> How can I make it remove it when sending, but to add it when receiving the files on a Windows computer?
02:36:26 <zzo38> Where is .gitattributes file?
02:36:39 <elliott> It is hidden from "ls" by default.
02:36:58 <zzo38> There is no such file, probably I have to create it?
02:37:23 <zzo38> Is a single line with "* text" good enough?
02:37:23 <elliott> And add the line "* text" to it without quotes.
02:37:43 <elliott> zzo38: You do not need to add the .gitattributes file to the repository, but you can if you want to.
02:38:58 <zzo38> OK, I fixed it now.
02:41:15 <zzo38> Also this time it commit with the correct username and email address, the same ones I used for register with the service. Please do not try to send message to this email address; it will probably bounce due to unreachable server.
02:41:39 <elliott> zzo38: But will you start making proper commit messages?
02:43:20 <zzo38> Did I configure everything correctly on the repo.or.cz service?
02:43:57 <elliott> 4 % Licensed by GNU GPL v3 or later version. Modified versions of this
02:43:57 <elliott> 5 % program must not be called "TeXnicard" without permission from the
02:44:02 <elliott> 10 % whatever you want, as long as they are not part of this file and it
02:44:04 <elliott> 11 % requires the user to compile it themself.
02:44:21 <elliott> You cannot license your program under the GPL version 3 with those restrictions, you must make your own license or use another one.
02:44:38 <zzo38> elliott: I thought there was some option in GPLv3 which permits some restrictions?
02:44:49 <elliott> zzo38: Yes but that restriction is not allowed
02:45:01 <zzo38> Then how can I rewrite it to make it allowed?
02:45:03 <elliott> zzo38: Also, anyone can remove the additional restrictions.
02:45:31 <elliott> zzo38: You cannot, with the GPL.
02:45:40 <elliott> zzo38: You should remove your extra text and just license it under the GPLv3.
02:45:59 <elliott> zzo38: Also, your terms are non-Free, and Debian will not include your program in its operating system because of that.
02:46:09 <elliott> So you should consider removing the restrictions.
02:46:14 <zzo38> I think I am trying to use option 7c.
02:46:23 <zzo38> I am not intending to make it non-Free.
02:46:36 <elliott> zzo38: No, that is not true. Misrepresenting the origin would be saying you wrote it.
02:46:41 <elliott> You cannot prohibit people using the name TeXnicard.
02:46:51 <elliott> zzo38: But you could say that they have to say "my version of TeXnicard" instead.
02:46:56 <zzo38> Can option 7e do that if I make it the trademark?
02:47:32 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, but you would have to pay, to make the trademark. Also, Debian would have to rename your program to include it.
02:47:36 <zzo38> I don't care if people say they wrote it I just don't want people to call incompatible versions also "TeXnicard".
02:48:00 <elliott> zzo38: Well, you have to. But you can make it so that people have to clarify that it is not the real TeXnicard, just their version of it.
02:48:53 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, that is my intention, that they are not allowed to claim it is the real TeXnicard.
02:49:32 <elliott> zzo38: OK, you should say instead: Modified versions of this program must, if they are called "TeXnicard", clarify in their included documentation that their modifications are not part of the official TeXnicard.
02:49:38 <elliott> zzo38: But I think that might be non-Free, too.
02:49:54 <zzo38> And isn't there such thing as unregistered trademark? (As long as "TM" instead of "(R)"?)
02:50:16 <zzo38> elliott: Why do you think that might be non-Free? Don't many projects already do that and called Free?
02:50:31 <elliott> zzo38: No, you cannot use that exception with an unregistered trademark, only a registered one.
02:50:35 <elliott> And no, no other Free project does it.
02:50:57 <elliott> Firefox does it, but Firefox is not Free by default, and this is why Debian calls it Iceweasel; GNU also have their own version of Firefox because of this, called IceCat.
02:52:15 <elliott> zzo38: Also, Debian only renamed Firefox because many people use it, if it is a smaller project, they will probably reject it completely.
02:53:17 <Gregor> elliott: The LaTeX license (LPPL) has roughly that restriction.
02:53:57 <elliott> Gregor: I do not think so.
02:58:43 -!- macrohauler has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
03:01:21 <zzo38> What do I type if I want to ensure that modified versions are not misrepresented as the official version of this program?
03:01:43 <elliott> zzo38: That is already prohibited by the GPL, I think.
03:03:14 <pikhq> elliott: The TeX license only allows the use of the TeX name if it strictly conforms to some test of TeX correctness.
03:03:33 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but that is not this restriction.
03:03:42 <Gregor> pikhq: COMMENT ON MY AWESOME SILLY MUSIC
03:03:45 <pikhq> LaTeX, though, has a clause stating "You must not distribute the modified file with the filename of the original file."...
03:04:17 <pikhq> elliott: Ah, sorry, it *used to* have that clause.
03:04:21 <zzo38> I do not care about filename, as long as it is clear that it is not the official version of TeXnicard.
03:04:30 <elliott> zzo38: Nobody will impersonate TeXnicard.
03:04:34 <elliott> The license does not allow it.
03:04:52 <pikhq> The current license has the same requirement as the GPL: modified components must not be misrepresented as original.
03:05:12 <elliott> zzo38: So the GPL already has what you want.
03:05:18 <pikhq> zzo38: BTW, DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT add odd license requirements.
03:05:27 <elliott> "Or the fire monster will get you!"
03:05:32 <elliott> The thing is, the GPLv3 allows anyone to remove them.
03:05:36 <elliott> So you can't really add much.
03:05:40 -!- azaq23 has joined.
03:05:49 <zzo38> OK I removed everything else now and it just says "Licensed by GNU GPL v3 or later version."
03:06:15 <pikhq> zzo38: At best, it makes people hate you. At worst, it makes it damned hard for any distro to have your package.
03:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: And with the GPLv3, almost all additional restrictions can be removed.
03:07:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, examples of this happening?
03:07:29 <zzo38> Now I removed that problem from my program.
03:07:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: It is near impossible to package it right.
03:07:54 <Sgeo> As in, that's an interesting example
03:08:11 <pikhq> I think the only distro not having to make some sort of peculiar arrangement for it is Slackware.
03:08:25 <pikhq> And that's because Slackware doesn't really patch stuff.
03:08:39 <elliott> pikhq: Even so, Slackware should rename it just so that it is not packaging a non-Free program.
03:08:49 <pikhq> elliott: Slackware has never given a shit.
03:09:08 <pikhq> Once upon a time it included Netscape.
03:09:28 <elliott> Was redistributing Netscape even /allowed/?
03:09:39 <pikhq> Well, once they made it gratis.
03:10:13 <pikhq> Pretty sure Debian had it in nonfree for a (short) while.
03:11:54 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, was netscape ever not gratis?
03:12:43 <zzo38> I doubt I am ever going to include any binary files in the repository for TeXnicard, since they can be compiled from the other files. Even such things as logos can be created using GF-Magick or something like that.
03:13:11 <pikhq> elliott: It was made gratis because of Internet Explorer being gratis.
03:15:26 <zzo38> Did I add enough Content tags to the repository?
03:15:46 <zzo38> And is there a way to remove the Content tags in case they have been added by mistake?
03:15:47 <elliott> Probably. Hay, you did not enter a good commit message!
03:16:43 <zzo38> I don't think I need a commit message, I just have a script that automates sending the files to the repository.
03:17:15 <elliott> zzo38: But that is what the purpose of a version control system is!
03:17:21 <elliott> You are meant to enter a commit message so that the history can be tracked.
03:17:29 <elliott> Otherwise there is no point in using a version control system.
03:17:43 <zzo38> But you can still track the history. You can still look at the changes!
03:18:01 <elliott> zzo38: But you are meant to be able to track the history without looking at the changes.
03:19:00 <Sgeo> zzo38 is Epsilion!
03:24:29 <zzo38> How long is the commit message allowed to be?
03:24:52 <elliott> zzo38: The first line should be less than 60 or at least 80 characters. 55 is probably the best limit.
03:25:01 <elliott> zzo38: But then you should have a blank line and as many as you want to describe the change. But you can leave those out.
03:25:08 <elliott> So you can just write one short line if you want.
03:25:15 <elliott> Like: "Optimise text procedures."
03:26:22 <zzo38> Do I use -F for multiple lines commit message?
03:26:48 <elliott> zzo38: No. If you just say "git commit -a", it will open an editor for you. You can set what editor it uses by setting the EDITOR environment variable.
03:27:06 <elliott> zzo38: But it must wait until you close it before the command exits, so EDITOR=notepad will not work because it exits immediately!
03:27:18 <elliott> You can also use -F if you want (-F - reads from standard input.)
03:27:25 <elliott> (And if you make a mistake you can use Control+C to cancel it and try again.)
03:33:38 <zzo38> OK I fixed the commit message.
04:08:26 <pikhq> So, there I was, calmly harvesting some wood...
04:08:38 <pikhq> When a TREE FREAKING DECIDES TO COEXIST WITH ME, THEREBY KILLING ME.
04:08:55 <elliott> pikhq: Try digging out in futute.
04:09:02 <elliott> pikhq: Or just blame Notch -- was there a sapling below you?
04:09:04 <elliott> If so, yeah, don't do that.
04:09:13 <pikhq> And now I can't find any of my stuff.
04:09:17 <elliott> It's just tree intercourse, gone horribly wrong.
04:09:23 <elliott> pikhq: It's near the tree :P
04:10:14 <pikhq> Fucking hell. There goes my diamond tools and some redstone.
04:10:52 <elliott> pikhq: Also, you have a full diamond toolset?
04:11:04 <elliott> pikhq: Are you still playing on Peaceful? Because, y'know, man up at this point.
04:11:10 <pikhq> elliott: No, but I had the relevant diamond tool.
04:11:22 <elliott> pikhq: ARE YOU PLAYING ON PEACEFUL
04:11:54 <pikhq> Yes. If I hadn't been I would have died several times by now. Because the tree spawned at me at the very start of night!
04:12:25 <pikhq> And my spawnpoint is not *that* close to where my stuff is.
04:12:32 <elliott> pikhq: If you have armour you can survive at night :P
04:12:52 <pikhq> elliott: When you die you start WITHOUT ITEMS
04:13:14 <elliott> pikhq: Well. Right. But it's semi-easy to run back to your base ... dig an underground tunnel to it with a door to enter maybe? :P
04:13:35 <pikhq> elliott: It's not like dying comes up often for me...
04:13:41 <pikhq> I've been playing on peaceful!
04:13:42 <elliott> pikhq: It will if you go off Peaceful :)
04:14:06 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:15:38 <elliott> pikhq: When your biggest enemy is a tree, it's time to turn off Peaceful :P
04:16:14 <pikhq> IT TOOK MY DAIMOND
04:16:24 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: ... Yeeessss.
04:17:24 <pikhq> quintopia: It's not there!
04:17:37 <pikhq> I did, however, kill all trees.
04:17:46 <elliott> Cause trees to go extinct!
04:18:25 <quintopia> pikhq: YOU elliott: HE CAN MINE IT AGAIN
04:18:52 <pikhq> quintopia: Diamond is rare. Insanely rare.
04:19:01 <elliott> quintopia: Do you actually play MC :P
04:19:11 <elliott> this isn't #esoteric-minecraft
04:19:16 <elliott> I was wondering why all you fuckwits were in here
04:19:21 <elliott> pikhq: Oi, get to the proper channel!
04:19:36 <elliott> quintopia: And destroy 70% of it ...
04:19:51 <zzo38> How do I remove a content tags from git repository?
04:20:02 <elliott> That's not a git thing, that's just a repo.or.cz thing.
04:21:10 <zzo38> How do I remove a content tags from repo.or.cz thing?
04:22:01 <elliott> zzo38: By emailing the administrator, I think. Why?
04:22:14 <elliott> The service is maintained by the admin team as a public service for the Git community, please contact admin@repo.or.cz with any requests, proposals, issues or patches - the underlying engine is fully open-source and easy to deploy. Or you may be also interested in other Git hosting sites.
04:22:17 <zzo38> There is a tag "porn" by mistake. You could use the program to make pornographic cards, but it is not the intention to do so. This repository does not contain anything pornographic.
04:22:21 <elliott> zzo38: So I think you email admin@repo.or.cz.
04:25:11 <zzo38> Is there some kind of prefix to tell it to delete a tag?
04:26:05 <elliott> zzo38: I do not think so. You have to email admin@repo.or.cz.
04:28:12 <zzo38> I looked at the source-codes for their system and in fact they do not have a command to tell it to delete a tag.
04:28:25 <elliott> zzo38: OK, that is why you should email admin@repo.or.cz.
04:28:26 <zzo38> But they probably should, in case some tags are added by mistake.
04:28:42 <zzo38> elliott: I don't have email.
04:28:54 <elliott> zzo38: But you used an email to sign up.
04:29:12 <zzo38> elliott: That is receive-only, and only when my SMTP server is running (which at this time, it isn't).
04:29:24 <elliott> zzo38: OK, well, you will have to send an email to them in some way to remove the tag.
04:29:48 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:30:42 <zzo38> No, I don't think they should remove the tag. I think they should add a command for removing the tag.
04:30:51 <elliott> pikhq: http://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2010-05-16-compiling_haskell_into_c++_template_metaprograms/
04:31:04 <elliott> zzo38: OK, then the tag will stay there. If you had email you could email them to suggest that they add a feature to remove tags.
04:31:17 <elliott> zzo38: You could even press the "fork" link on the repo.or.cz source, add that command yourself, and ask them to merge it back.
04:31:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
04:33:15 <elliott> But you would have to ask them using email.
04:34:06 <zzo38> I do not have any email!
04:35:22 <elliott> zzo38: Then you cannot ask them. But you could easily get an email address...
04:35:54 <zzo38> I do not want any email.
04:36:05 <elliott> Then you cannot ask them and the tag will have to stay.
04:36:25 <zzo38> Do they have any postal mail?
04:36:57 <elliott> zzo38: Why do you not want email?
04:37:02 <Sgeo> What's wrog with the tag?
04:37:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: The tag is mistake, it is not the correct tag.
04:38:07 <Sgeo> MetaFun is officially my new favorite language
04:49:31 * Sgeo looks at Erlang's TV
04:50:46 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: http://gergo.erdi.hu/blog/2010-05-16-compiling_haskell_into_c++_template_metaprograms/
04:51:00 <augur> whats with c++ templates
04:51:45 <augur> what do they do thats so magical
04:51:58 <elliott> now exCUSE me, i'm watching a minecraft video!
04:52:12 <augur> haskell's type system is exponential worst case
04:52:28 <augur> how do you even get into super-exponential domains
04:52:41 <augur> templates are related to type systems, right?
04:52:45 <augur> or am i mixing things up
04:53:04 <elliott> they're like java generics
04:53:08 <augur> thats what i thought
04:53:10 <elliott> or rather java generics are like them :P
04:53:13 <augur> generics are parametric polymorphism
04:53:19 <augur> like parametric types in haskell
04:53:24 <augur> or so #haskell says
04:53:33 <augur> and thats what it seems like to me
04:54:11 <augur> so if its almost TC to parse and typecheck C++ because of templates, wtf is going on
04:54:26 <elliott> *like type classes in haskell
04:54:32 <elliott> augur: um it's not actually that esoteric...
04:54:43 <elliott> anyway stfu im watching this video
04:54:47 <augur> i love haskell's type system, btw
04:56:25 <elliott> it's not powerful enough :P
04:56:58 <augur> but its sexier than fuckin C#'s type system
04:57:06 <augur> i just love haskell
04:57:26 <augur> i wouldnt mind it if it had OO support and the options of a more powerful type system
04:57:29 <augur> but i love its syntax
04:57:57 <augur> its pretty useless, yeah
04:58:26 <augur> what i like most about OO is the style
04:58:38 <elliott> functional style beats all!
04:58:44 <augur> ok let me rephrase that
04:58:49 <augur> i like postfix notation for certain things
04:59:30 <augur> alsp, i like the almost (but certainly not quite) reactive style that OO promotes
04:59:39 <augur> i dont think most people think of OO that way
04:59:42 <elliott> solution to all problems :D
05:00:08 <elliott> augur: (note: fully generic implementation of FRP that doesn't leak space requires a lazy specialiser which is an open research problem :D)
05:00:15 <elliott> well, doesn't require, but it's the only way anyone knows how to do that
05:00:26 <augur> dunno what a lazy specialiser is
05:00:36 <Gregor> OO is like a beautiful woman, who you want to make love to to prove to your dad that you're not a homosexual, but you just can't get it up, so you take some blue pills (functional paradigm) and ...
05:00:40 <augur> i know conal thinks that we should have good multithreading to make it truly shine, tho
05:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: ...and then your analogy breaks down.
05:00:53 <Gregor> "..." = nonsense metaphor taken too far :P
05:00:55 <augur> also, you're still gay
05:01:08 <elliott> augur: luke palmer is in cohorts with conal and he's the main proponent of specialisation for FRP :P
05:02:11 <augur> i feel that OO should be reconsidered in light of haskell type classes
05:02:21 <augur> elliott: im talking to Gregor
05:02:50 <elliott> Gregor: THAT VIDEO YOU DIDN'T WANT GETTING OU-- stupid Minecraft shit
05:03:48 <Gregor> I have only one thing to say to you, elliott.
05:03:55 <augur> Gregor: he's underage
05:04:31 <Sgeo> I should be nighty eating
05:04:47 <Gregor> Eating nighties doesn't sound wise at all.
05:05:06 <elliott> HE WILL DEVOUR THE BLACKNESS
05:06:07 <Gregor> "Nighty" is another word for "nightgown"
05:06:25 <Gregor> It's a black nightgown?
05:06:49 <elliott> Like Gregor Richards cannibalistic racist.
05:07:04 <pikhq> augur: Like being underage ever stopped anyone from watching porn.
05:07:18 <augur> no but it generally stops people from talking about porn to the underaged
05:07:23 <augur> it being a crime and all
05:07:42 <elliott> Is it really a crime for an underaged person to pretend to be 18 and to watch porn?
05:08:02 <pikhq> No, it's a crime to knowingly give an underaged person porn.
05:08:13 <elliott> Right. And websites can hardly do better than asking, since, well, this is the interwebs :P
05:08:19 <augur> its a crime for someone >=18 to give porn to someone <18
05:08:31 <elliott> augur: yes, but consider a website
05:08:33 <augur> or to talk about it
05:08:37 <Gregor> Even parent->child, even though in any good family that's a 16th-birthday tradition :P
05:08:41 <elliott> /talk/ about it, are you sure
05:08:50 <augur> i cant talk about sex with you
05:08:54 <augur> unless its in an educational fashion
05:09:00 <pikhq> It could be breach of contract for someone underage to pretend to be 18 and then watch porn, *if they could agree to contracts*.
05:09:06 <pikhq> augur: Lies and deceit.
05:09:08 <elliott> At least I don't think freedom of speech has been pooped on THAT much.
05:09:14 <elliott> I would be very, very surprised if that were true.
05:09:25 <augur> if i asked elliott what his cock looked like i'd be breaking the law
05:09:32 <pikhq> augur: In many states in the US, it would be legal to *actually have sex* with elliott.
05:09:43 <augur> its state-dependent
05:09:51 <augur> elliott: dont worry, you're not my type ;P
05:09:55 <augur> i dont like girls, after all!
05:10:09 <pikhq> And, anyways, it's too late for me to give a shit about stupid laws.
05:10:22 <pikhq> I've already earned a few thousand years in jail with DMCA violations.
05:10:25 <augur> where's oklopol when we need him
05:10:45 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think it is.
05:10:47 <elliott> are you sure, i don't believe you
05:10:58 <augur> i dont have citations
05:11:01 <augur> its just common knowledge
05:11:07 <pikhq> augur: [US Constitution, 1st Amendment]
05:11:08 <elliott> common knowledge is usually wrong
05:11:09 <augur> and its done mostly to justify other things
05:11:14 <elliott> common knowledge is usually wrong
05:11:16 <augur> pikhq: the first amendment doesnt apply to everything
05:11:31 * elliott tried to google "folk physics" -- entered "folk psychics" -- far more awesome
05:11:52 <augur> I SEE IN YOUR FUTURE... A BAND!
05:11:58 <pikhq> augur: Ah, right, it doesn't apply to judges being "it doesn't apply because FUCK YOU".
05:12:03 <pikhq> Even though the text does.
05:12:26 <augur> well im not having sex with you, either way
05:12:32 <elliott> wait was this just a really obfuscatory way for augur to be able to say <augur> if i asked elliott what his cock looked like i'd be breaking the law
05:12:34 <augur> so dont you think of trying!
05:12:35 <elliott> without it technically being illegal
05:12:45 <elliott> this raises the question, is it legal to talk about talking about sex with me
05:12:51 <augur> i imagine your cock looks like a cock
05:13:00 <elliott> http://www.petsintouch.com/nwposter/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/rooster-big1.jpg
05:13:16 <augur> and look at that red head...
05:13:27 <elliott> Plus the feathers! And claws!
05:13:34 <augur> thats how i like my cocks
05:13:34 <pikhq> Keep fuckin' that chicken.
05:13:40 <augur> feathered and clawed
05:13:42 <elliott> I swear that chicken only has one leg
05:13:44 <elliott> http://www.petsintouch.com/nwposter/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/rooster-big1.jpg
05:14:02 <Gregor> Due to the nature of this conversation, I keep reading that domain as penistouch.com
05:14:03 <augur> your eyes are broken
05:14:06 <augur> there are clearly two legs
05:14:20 <elliott> Augur and the Penistouch, a novel for young children
05:14:35 <augur> as written by Elliott Hird
05:15:05 <augur> i wouldnt fap to something named that
05:15:09 <augur> thats a stupid title
05:15:43 <zzo38> I have figured out how much memory is used in total by Plain TeXnicard. It uses 0x12C6 bytes (0x22 objects).
05:16:09 <zzo38> But of course it is not finish yet, so probably later it will be longer and use more memory.
05:16:24 <augur> elliott: be sure to submit it to nifty.org when you're done with it!
05:16:27 <elliott> augur: Augur and the Fapulatory Wonderganza!
05:16:52 <zzo38> Do you think it is bloated?
05:17:30 <elliott> I'm going to start Enhanced TeXnicard to remove the bloat.
05:18:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Would you prefer http://www.penisland.com/?
05:18:50 <Gregor> augur: http://eu.nifty.org/nifty/gay/highschool/my-sleepover/my-sleepover-2 "When I was 13 I gave my first blowjob and had my first gay anal sex. It was with a boy called Elliott." // elliott's secrets revealed by Google's site: feature X-P
05:19:22 <augur> didnt we already guess this?
05:20:13 <elliott> Gregor: From this we can conclude that my penis was at least 7 inches long as of two years ago. Now I just need to figure out a way to claim that the story proves it has exponential growth.
05:20:24 <elliott> I AM DETERMINED TO USE THIS TO MY ADVANTAGE
05:20:37 <Gregor> I didn't read past the first paragraph, didn't mean to actually make any positive statements >_>
05:20:52 <Gregor> I mean, 7in at 13 ... that's gotta equate to like 11in by adulthood <_<
05:21:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Definite qualifications for going into porn.
05:21:57 <elliott> I am not going to do _anything_ to dispel this rumour.
05:22:58 -!- acetoline has joined.
05:23:04 <augur> can i just point out that elliott has entered that period his life when he actually starts caring about sex?
05:23:15 <augur> as opposed to two eyars ago, where he only cared about programming languages
05:23:16 <zzo38> elliott: You can do that if you want to, but I think it is not bloated. I think even primitive TeX uses more than 4K of memory.
05:23:26 <elliott> augur: Psht, programming languages are clearly superior.
05:23:29 <augur> its so cute. we get to see him become a real woman <3
05:23:43 <elliott> `addquote <augur> its so cute. we get to see him become a real woman <3
05:23:47 <pikhq> elliott: You'll note that we are *here*, not sleeping with women.
05:23:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:23:52 <elliott> I don't really think I've changed much in two years apart from becoming less stupid :P
05:23:57 <elliott> pikhq: Which is *obviously* because we made that choice!
05:24:01 <Gregor> pikhq: (Or men, as the case may be :P )
05:24:11 <elliott> We're all either straight men or lesbians here.
05:24:21 <elliott> So augur is clearly a lesbian.
05:24:36 <augur> im a big fat lesbian
05:24:41 <pikhq> elliott: Nah, those of us interested in men multitask.
05:24:58 <pikhq> That came out slightly differently than intended.
05:25:11 <HackEgo> 276) <augur> its so cute. we get to see him become a real woman <3
05:25:15 <elliott> augur: i thought you said you weren't into girls
05:25:23 <Gregor> HackEgo: IT'S OK WE STILL LOVE YOU
05:25:35 <elliott> augur: but you're a lesbian!
05:25:40 <augur> except those girls that might as well be boys
05:25:48 <Gregor> At this exact moment, acetoline is thinking "What the hell kind of channel did I just join"
05:25:54 <elliott> acetoline: Here, we are GAY.
05:25:59 <elliott> Gregor: They've been in here before :P
05:26:04 <elliott> Although not said anything afaik.
05:26:15 <augur> acetoline is the fbi agent watching this channel
05:26:25 <augur> usually he just sniffs packets
05:26:36 <elliott> And cocaine. But mostly packets.
05:26:38 <pikhq> And doesn't notice that we save him effort with the logs.
05:26:41 <acetoline> elliott, wtf you mean none of you remember me?
05:26:56 <elliott> acetoline: OH NO I remember ... good ol'... acetoline... who are you
05:26:57 <pikhq> acetoline: Did you use a different nickname previously?
05:27:16 <Gregor> acetoline: According to my logs, that's the first line you've ever SAID in here :P
05:27:35 <zzo38> Primitive TeX has 322 multiletter control sequences and 1330 strings. The format file generated when "\dump" is given at the "**" prompt for INITEX, is 119694 bytes long.
05:27:45 <Sgeo> I have my "Three Worlds Collide" song stuck in my head
05:27:48 <acetoline> I might have changed my nick; the last time I talked in here was several months ago, I really don't remember
05:27:53 <Sgeo> Yes, I have a song for Three Worlds Collide
05:28:13 <acetoline> I don't remember my nick then, I mean
05:28:25 <augur> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110119-yellowstone-park-supervolcano-eruption-magma-science/
05:28:28 <zzo38> acetoline: I do not remember either.
05:28:29 <augur> yellowstone is going to erupe
05:28:32 <pikhq> I have "omoitè ha okusennmann" stuck in my head. (思いでは億千万 if you want to Google)
05:28:41 <elliott> yellowstone is just a big pizza
05:28:43 <acetoline> do you guys remember the regex replacement language?
05:28:54 <elliott> acetoline: there are fifty of those i think ... well the dfa thing
05:29:14 <quintopia> is the yellowstone supervolcano actually /about to erupt/
05:29:20 <quintopia> i thought we had a few more decades
05:29:44 <acetoline> It was mode-based, and it was blazing fast
05:29:44 <augur> actually im kinda drunk so
05:29:47 <quintopia> i say we start a massive geothermal energy project there
05:29:52 <augur> bulging is difficult
05:30:25 <augur> heat in yellowstone
05:30:50 <elliott> no pretty sure quintopia means your bulging
05:30:51 <augur> elliott: what do you look like, now that you've begun to become a "man"
05:30:59 <elliott> augur: like a girl still xD
05:31:16 <augur> well im not asking to see your secret vagina
05:31:23 <elliott> but i don't have one, that's how secret it is
05:31:26 <pikhq> Only the public one.
05:31:31 <elliott> it's being withheld from my OWN EYES
05:31:53 <elliott> maybe i'll try chopping things off to see if they're real, brb
05:31:57 <augur> last i saw of you, you looked lik a young david deutsch
05:32:06 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
05:32:08 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
05:32:22 <augur> cut your fingernail too close to the nail bed, huh
05:32:26 <augur> hate it when that happens :(
05:32:43 <elliott> i'm currently missing an arm and an anus
05:33:12 <elliott> augur is into girls only if they lack anuses
05:33:28 <augur> both arms and anuses are important to me
05:33:51 <elliott> shake hands -> anal sex, what more do you need
05:33:56 * Sgeo doesn't particularly mind if a girl's eye is near useless
05:34:08 <augur> not eyes, mind you
05:34:18 <augur> elliott: who shakes hands
05:34:45 <elliott> augur: isn't this discussion illegal
05:34:45 <quintopia> venus demilo is supposed to be quite beautiful
05:35:01 <elliott> Venus Demilo sounds like a pornstar
05:35:11 <pikhq> augur: How does the law work with a cross-jurisdiction conversation, anyways?
05:35:17 <quintopia> an armless anusless headless pornstar
05:35:26 <augur> pikhq: i think its determined based on where you are
05:35:26 <elliott> i'm just a bloody stump of a finger
05:35:30 <augur> or where the "victim" is
05:35:33 <elliott> AND AM GOING NOW FUCK OFF GOODBYE
05:35:40 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: fucking sleeping).
05:35:45 <augur> whichever jurisdiction wins
05:35:49 <pikhq> Hmm. Clearly we should all head out to the Vatican.
05:35:53 <pikhq> Age of consent is 12. Fuck yeah.
05:36:02 <augur> practical age of consent is 6
05:36:21 <augur> seriously tho, who the fuck would want to fuck a prepubescent kid?
05:36:38 <augur> post-pubescent, fine, but pre?
05:36:44 <augur> well yes thats not the point tho
05:40:43 <pikhq> NASA has a solar sail in space right now. FUCK YEAH.
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06:48:47 <zzo38> Is the reason why you get error messages saying "The operation completed successfully" because of the command to receive error message text not done immediately after the operation with error?
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07:41:19 <Sgeo> zzo38, exit(normal).
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10:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.2playerproductions.com/images/stories/jeb.png
10:15:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "How on earth did he confuse = for == and not notice for 3 years?"
10:54:29 <oklopol> in my dream, i actually saw the solution to the collatz problem!
10:54:40 <oklopol> prolly shouldn't be that hard to reproduce it
10:56:35 <oklopol> the solution was not written in traditional math notation tho, there was this black board that had like a 20x30 grid of holes, and then the girl who solved the prob put red, green and blue pearls in the wholes and drew a racetrack
10:58:08 <oklopol> she didn't quite have time to explain what the interpretation was before the killing started, i don't remember what happened, all i remember is the fear of death
11:08:05 <Vorpal> Swedish open source spell checking software generally sucks more or less badly. I wonder why.
11:09:00 <Vorpal> For example, firefox's spell checker suggested that "tvåkomplement" (two-complement) should be "tvålkomplement" (soap complement). The latter I have no idea what the fuck it would be.
11:09:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, Phantom_Hoover ^
11:10:48 <Vorpal> I mean, either it doesn't handle concatenating words properly, in which case "tvålkomplement" must actually be in the word list(!). Or it does handle concatenation. In which case it should handle "tvåkomplement" just fine.
11:14:21 <fizzie> Don't worry, Finnish free spell checkers suck even more; esp. wordlist-based approaches that can't do the inflections.
11:15:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, but seriously, "soap complement". That's ridiculous!
11:17:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least Swedish have rather few suffix variants for a given word. 4 I think. Or actually 8 I guess but the equiv of the 's (as in foo's) in English is pretty much the same always iirc.
11:20:28 <fizzie> Firefox's Finnish spell-checker actually seems to do better than I expected, based on five or so test-words.
11:24:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, the one in firefox is vastly better than the one in open office for Swedish
11:32:30 <oklopol> Vorpal: tv isn't a noun so it can't be the first part of a compound?
11:32:47 <oklopol> not really even a question, i'm sure that's the reason
11:32:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, know any modern general purpose language with built in support for fixed point values?
11:33:01 <fizzie> oklopol: I would think they can compoundize things like "kaksikäsinen"?
11:33:10 <Vorpal> oklopol, uh. tvåkomplement is the Swedish word.
11:33:22 <Vorpal> I mean, as far as I know it is valid
11:33:25 <oklopol> Vorpal: the spell-checker isn't a native spearker
11:33:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, well no, it is a stupid program :P
11:33:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does that word mean?
11:33:58 <oklopol> Vorpal: so what about two-handed
11:34:22 <oklopol> Vorpal: it means "he who possesses a pair of hands"
11:34:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, I would say it should be tvåhändig.
11:34:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that is better, though that means two-armed
11:34:57 <oklopol> i'm not asking what it is, i'm asking if the program understands it
11:35:21 <oklopol> yeah the finnish version can mean either really
11:35:35 <oklopol> although perhaps only the arms one makes sense
11:35:49 <oklopol> i didn't actually even consider it might mean something
11:35:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, yes it knows "tvåarmad" at least.
11:36:11 <oklopol> no, surely it said "you must mean" tvlarmad
11:36:23 <oklopol> so tvarmad might be an exception
11:36:33 <Vorpal> it *did* suggest tvålhändig though :P
11:36:33 <oklopol> tvlhndig must be in everyday use anyway
11:37:03 <oklopol> tv can't be the first part of a compound, tvarmad is in the word list
11:37:07 <Vorpal> oklopol, the problem here is that "händig" also means something else
11:37:22 <fizzie> Dictionary here does list "tvåhändig" and "tvåhänt" both; you could try the latter.
11:37:37 <fizzie> Or tvådimensionell, for that matter.
11:37:51 <fizzie> They're different sort of words than komplement, though.
11:38:00 <Vorpal> tvåhänt sounds better yes. But it doesn't handle that either.
11:38:17 <Vorpal> tvådimensionell it *does* handle
11:38:28 <Vorpal> what a weird spell checker
11:38:41 <Vorpal> it is like it handle compounds only in some cases
11:38:52 <fizzie> Not all compounds are valid, after all.
11:39:04 <fizzie> Must be something word-class-related.
11:39:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, well. I have always preferred a descriptive grammar to a normative one.
11:39:34 <Vorpal> And everyone would find words like that just fine. :P
11:39:38 <fizzie> I couldn't (immediately) figure out any unarguably correct Finnish words it didn't handle. I mean, it doesn't recognize "kissaisa" which I unambiguously parse as "catlike", but it does recognize "kissamainen" which is more "regular".
11:40:07 <oklopol> i parse kissaisa as a internetified kissais
11:40:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, a native speaker of Swedish just hears if a compound sounds valid or not. To me "tvåhänding" does sound slightly awkward but still valid.
11:41:10 <Vorpal> tvåhänding sounds like some creature from a book.
11:41:31 <Vorpal> oklopol, "very catlike"?
11:41:50 <oklopol> "a -> " does not have any sort of function in finland
11:41:51 <Vorpal> you said *internet*ified
11:41:58 <Vorpal> how did I misread that
11:42:16 <fizzie> And it doesn't recognize the always-touted "longest word" epäjärjestelmällisyydellistyttymättömyydellänsäkään, but that's just ridiculous anyway. It does do shorter variants, like "epäjärjestelmällisyydelleenkin".
11:42:33 <fizzie> And it does do the also-often-mentioned long-compound kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari.
11:43:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, I made a 73 letter word in Swedish. This was many years ago. Word 98 for Mac OS (classical mac os) thought it was valid btw. I doubt open office would
11:43:21 <oklopol> "epäjärjestelmällisyydellistyttymättömyydellänsäkään" makes perfect sense at least, i've heard variants that aren't really finnish at all
11:43:42 <Vorpal> though word failed miserably at hyphenating it!
11:44:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, is "epäjärjestelmällisyydellistyttymättömyydellänsäkään" a compound word?
11:44:12 <oklopol> compounds are unbounded in finnish, you can just concatenate any nouns as long as you like
11:44:40 <Vorpal> <oklopol> compounds are unbounded in finnish, you can just concatenate any nouns as long as you like <-- same in Swedish. Though after a while you run out of imagination.
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11:45:10 <fizzie> järjestelmällinen → organized, systematic.
11:45:18 <fizzie> Then it's just suffixes, and a negation prefix.
11:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, clearly a soap-complement would be what you get when you replace everything that isn't soap with soap and replace all the soap with something else.
11:46:04 <oklopol> that means "even with his not having been made become full of unsystematicness"
11:46:12 <fizzie> I don't really like the whole "järjestelmällisyydellisyys" bit it has in there.
11:46:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but soap is not a binary thing.
11:46:44 <oklopol> järjestelmällisyydellisyys iterates a syffix twice, yeah
11:47:02 <oklopol> iloisuudellisuudellisuudellisuudellisuudellisuudellisuud
11:47:31 <oklopol> so maybe unsystematicnessness
11:47:44 <fizzie> Yeah, it's a bit like repeating -ness in English.
11:48:11 <fizzie> And kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari means "three-phase kWh-meter", but that's very straight-forward.
11:48:11 <oklopol> well repeating ness is a perfectly valid way to construct arbitrary length words in english
11:48:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean like foonessness?
11:48:24 <oklopol> happinessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessness
11:48:33 <oklopol> is the longest english word that's not a compound
11:48:42 <oklopol> but i think i know a longer one
11:49:00 <Vorpal> <oklopol> well repeating ness is a perfectly valid way to construct arbitrary length words in english <-- actually I can't work out what it means after the third iteration or so
11:49:26 <oklopol> erm, the state of being the state of being the state of being happy?
11:49:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah in Swedish that would be "trefas kilowattmätare" I think
11:49:30 <oklopol> are you stupid or something
11:49:55 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm I meant actually sensible meaning
11:49:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: Doesn't that just measure kW's, not kWh's?
11:50:13 <Vorpal> "trefas kilowatttimmemätare"
11:50:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think one t should be stripped there
11:51:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I'm not sure.
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11:51:53 <oklopol> well someone could be experiencing happiness in your backyard, so you tell them happiness is not allowed in there, and then he says "but the happinessness of my happiness is so overwhelming i can't control it!" and then you say "the happinessnessness your happiness' happinessness is feeling is an illusion" and shoot the guy
11:53:21 <fizzie> Here in Finland we'd put a dash in, probably. Though usually there's two matching vowels at the inner border of a compound, not consonants.
11:53:41 <oklopol> that wasn't really correct use of -ness :D
11:53:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I would probably rewrite it in some way in Swedish
11:53:48 <oklopol> but let's not get into that
11:53:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, yeah I was wondering if happinessness really mean "happiness of happiness"
11:54:30 <oklopol> one thing it could mean is "the fact that someone is the happiness of something"
11:54:41 <Vorpal> oklopol, the way you used it, it seems like you reified happiness
11:55:07 <oklopol> well you pretty much have to for that meaning of -ness, don't you
11:55:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, yeah and I'm wondering if that is actually valid.
11:55:36 <oklopol> but you need to get some tangible grip of the happiness that someone is feeling
11:55:52 <oklopol> so that you can start talking about the happinessness of that particular happiness...
11:56:07 <Vorpal> oklopol, quite. So does adding extra -ness make any sense at all then?
11:56:16 <oklopol> someone might argue that there is only one happiness, but then talking about its happinessness surely is even more important.
11:56:32 <oklopol> it doesn't have any uses ofc
11:56:49 <oklopol> i mean in your everyday life
11:57:02 <oklopol> but it would be crazy to say it's not valid
11:58:46 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm what we need is a formal definition of what -ness means exactly. Because I don't read happinessness as happiness of happiness. But rather as the state of being in the state of being happy.
11:59:26 <oklopol> it's not the happiness of happiness, it's the property defining happiness.
11:59:49 <oklopol> you are feeling happiness if the thing you are feeling has the property of happinessness.
12:00:25 <oklopol> just like you are feeling cat if the thing you are feeling has the property of catness!
12:01:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, but what about non-emotions where you add -ness?
12:01:22 <Vorpal> oklopol, tidiness for example
12:02:06 <oklopol> well you know, when your room is tiny, it has the property of tidiness, in which case the tidiness characterizing your room shows clear signs of tidinessness.
12:02:12 <Vorpal> oklopol, also isn't -ness only for adjective -> noun? That is another reason why it wouldn't work for cat or for multiple ones
12:02:21 <Vorpal> oklopol, "tidy" not "tiny"
12:02:45 <oklopol> because if it didn't have the property of tidinessness, it wouldn't be tidiness in the first place, and thus wouldn't have been a property of the room in the first place
12:02:55 <oklopol> typo, d and n are so close
12:03:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, what keyboard layout?
12:03:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, but cat is a noun, and from what I can find -ness can only be used on adjectives. And that turns them into nouns.
12:03:50 <Vorpal> but okay, could be you are right
12:04:14 <oklopol> catness first turns cat into an adjective, then before anyone notices, it goes one level higher so that it looks less suspicious
12:06:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm oklopolnessness
12:07:04 <Vorpal> or would it be oklonessness
12:09:04 <fizzie> I think for catness a more attitudinous word is "cattitude", for obvious reasons.
12:09:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, "attitudinous"?
12:10:38 <fizzie> It's like "fabulous", but with more 'tude.
12:21:13 <Ilari> Wonder what the heck is going on with APNIC... Someone says the depletion date is known (but confidential), someone else says APNIC just hasn't requested (and if they will, it will be processed in normal time...)
12:22:35 <Sgeo> It's the end of the world as we know it
12:22:45 <Sgeo> It's the end of the world as we know it
12:22:53 <Sgeo> It's the end of the world as we know it
12:22:57 <Sgeo> and I feel fine
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12:25:17 <Ilari> Or they send the request on schedule (not on allocation threshold...)
12:27:00 <Ilari> They are way below when they should have allocated...
12:28:24 <Ilari> APNIC may well know how long IANA is going to take, so by sending request at suitable moment, one has pretty good idea about the depletion day....
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13:10:25 <Ilari> What's up with all the news articles about IPv4 depletion coming out lately?
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13:18:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently 60% of AOL's income comes from idiots who haven't realised they're paying for a service they don't use.
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13:37:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which service is that?
13:37:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so... what do they use AOL for then?
13:37:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and they use another ISP for actual browsing?
13:38:19 <Ilari> BTW: Any progress on getting esolangs.org to have an AAAA record? :-)
13:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on the stuff I've read it's mainly technologically-illiterate old people, so "idiots" is a bit harsh.
13:38:41 <Vorpal> Ilari, I doubt the server has IPv6.
13:38:55 <Vorpal> Ilari, as in, it doesn't have any inet6 ip apart from ::1 and a link-local one
13:42:26 <Ilari> Yeah, if the server doesn't have AAAA record, it probably doesn't have IPv6 address anyway...
13:49:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I have concluded that the clicking mechanism you used in the pen projectiles is unworkable for pen rockets.
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13:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I get this sense that my attention span is plummeting.
14:00:43 <oklofok> that usually happens as you get younger.
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14:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, oh, right, I'm just going through time backwards.
14:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> For a second there I was worried something was seriously wrong.
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15:04:46 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover in all four dimensions simultaneously -----###
15:08:10 <oerjan> suo!suaw!p ay+ u! punoje h11njaje> sujn+ uefjao *
15:08:28 <oerjan> some loss of information may be expected
15:14:31 <oerjan> 00:11:29 <elliott> 14:22:35 <oerjan> i used it in Malbolge Unshackled to create an infinite lazy datastructure containing IORefs. afaik that usage is perfectly safe.
15:14:34 <oerjan> 00:11:33 <elliott> hmm, I wonder how
15:16:28 * oerjan visits his own homepage directly, notices Unshackled isn't mentioned there
15:17:02 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/Unshackled.hs
15:18:14 <Vorpal> <oerjan> suo!suaw!p ay+ u! punoje h11njaje> sujn+ uefjao * <-- really? that's interesting!
15:18:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, do you have a proof of that though?
15:19:01 <oerjan> well you may notice that i am no longer going backwards in time
15:19:28 <oerjan> <elliott> !haskell mdo iorefs <- (:) (unsafeInterleaveIO newIORef) iorefs
15:19:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh. I blame it on the loss of information then. It ended up as "The Riemann hypothesis is true"
15:20:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, unless it has been shown that you not going backwards in time implies that it is true.
15:21:57 <oerjan> elliott: i think you'd want something like iorefs val = let iorefs' = liftM2 (:) (newIORef val) (unsafeInterleaveIO iorefs') in iorefs'
15:23:21 <oerjan> i've got nothing on the RH, although i could direct you to a crank commenting on godel's letter who does
15:24:28 <oerjan> elliott: oh you're just trying to make a cyclic mutable list
15:25:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, btw I'm downloading system upgrades. Just after I read your line about the crank I checked back at the terminal window and saw that it was downloading cracklib, which I first read as cranklib XD
15:25:34 <Vorpal> (in case you don't know, cracklib is the thing used to say "no, you can't use that as password, it is too weak)
15:25:44 <oerjan> in which case, mdo iorefs <- (: iorefs) `fmap` newIORef whatever should work, i don't think you even need unsafeInterleaveIO for that
15:26:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: SPOOOOKY SYCHRONICITY
15:26:55 <oerjan> although it _could_ be
15:27:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, don't you need more than two events for that to happen. Like if I would check into #nethack and someone would say "kraken" and then I would misread that or whatever.
15:27:46 <oerjan> elliott: um it needs a ; return iorefs at the end too
15:27:51 <Vorpal> (not that that happened atm)
15:28:13 <oerjan> Vorpal: no, two events is enough
15:28:32 <nooga> a friend of mine wrote a game in javascript
15:28:34 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvKZPvJ5dBY
15:28:51 <nooga> using his own 3d engine
15:30:10 <Vorpal> nooga, was the 3D engine written in js too?
15:30:46 <nooga> http://redshootinghood.info/
15:30:46 <Vorpal> nooga, meh doesn't count unless you write a JITing js implementation in js to host it :P
15:32:12 <oerjan> :t do rec {x <- return (True:x)}; return x
15:32:13 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *). (MonadFix m) => m [Bool]
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15:46:05 <Vorpal> oh just because of his nick?
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15:48:50 <oklofok> why? well because of the why of course.
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15:51:50 <oerjan> although them darn flies seem to be getting tougher
15:55:01 <Vorpal> <oerjan> MVSCA SWAPPENDA EST <-- hm. Is it a transposition crypo?
15:55:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh. What is it supposed to mean
15:55:30 <oerjan> well only the SWAPP- part is fake
15:55:53 <oerjan> The fly should be swapped
15:55:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, does latin have v or something as a vowel or how do you pronounce "MVSCA"?
15:56:21 <oerjan> in classical latin, U and V were still one letter. same with I and J.
15:56:32 <oerjan> and W didn't exist of course
16:03:04 <quintopia> you even translated it correctly...still not what you meant
16:03:14 <quintopia> also, if MVSCA is fly, what is mouse?
16:04:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, what does a fly have to do with a mouse?
16:04:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: the latin words look slightly similar
16:05:07 <oerjan> "The best known mouse species is the common house mouse (Mus musculus)."
16:05:41 <oerjan> the musculus part being an adjective only used in the scientific nomenclature, not in actual day-to-day latin
16:06:53 <quintopia> ah, but the modern term "muscle" comes from that adjective form, so i expect that they did use it in conversation to mean "mouse-like"
16:07:31 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mus#Latin
16:07:45 <Vorpal> also en:mouse = sv:mus
16:08:08 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/musculus, see etymology
16:08:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, I haven't checked yet but I expect something like "because the mouse back then were body builders"
16:09:14 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%E1%BF%A6%CF%82#Ancient_Greek it looks like the greek had some trouble giving this word just one meaning :D
16:09:45 <oerjan> Vorpal: the muscle meaning is borrowed from the greek, where the word has four different unrelated meanings
16:10:08 <oerjan> three of which sound similar in english, btw
16:10:36 <quintopia> the reason i heard was that when one flexed the bicep, it looked like a little mouse currying around underneath the skin
16:10:37 <oerjan> (well the last one is from the same greek/latin, so may not count)
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16:11:17 <oerjan> quintopia: plausible, but with it being from ancient greek it's not exactly easy to confirm...
16:11:41 <oerjan> the greek were big on fake etymologies iirc, they thought hero and eros were related...
16:12:17 <oerjan> (hero=heros in greek, so just one letter difference, and one that greek doesn't actually write to boot)
16:12:34 <oerjan> *didn't actually write
16:13:52 <oerjan> quintopia: i think the singular is still biceps, btw
16:14:11 <quintopia> if you want to be all latinate about it, yes
16:14:23 <quintopia> but bicep is common usage in english
16:15:28 <oerjan> what would you know. although it's listed as nonstandard.
16:16:09 <quintopia> but so common that i've never heard biceps used as a singular noun in my life
16:18:28 <oklofok> well maybe you only hang out with stupids
16:18:33 <oklofok> have you thought about that
16:19:53 <Vorpal> quintopia, isn't it "bicepses" or something in plural?
16:20:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, I meant in English
16:20:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, in Swedish it is same in singular and plural at least
16:20:34 <quintopia> oklofok: i would not be surprised if the entirety of the american population that can be commonly found on the weight room floor fell into that category
16:20:36 -!- Adiemus has quit (Quit: The Spirit and the bride say, Come! Let everyone who hears this say, Come! Let everyone who is thirsty come! Let anyone who wants the water of life take it as a gift! [Revelation 22:17]).
16:21:26 <oerjan> ...someone probably didn't fit in this channel
16:21:38 <oklofok> do you live on the weight room floor, quin?
16:22:32 <quintopia> oklofok: far from it. it's just that people don't talk about biceps much in other places
16:22:34 <oklofok> yeah esolangs can be too much for some
16:23:32 <oklofok> quintopia: oh right, i didn't actually realize that the word meant... even though i did look up the finnish term to check "<Vorpal> oerjan, in Swedish it is same in singular and plural at least"
16:24:28 <oklofok> i thought you met all your friends in the weight room, which sounded interesting
16:26:06 <quintopia> go to the gym just to make friends
16:26:10 <quintopia> see what kind of people i can find
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17:12:51 <fizzie> Based on the name they must be a Finnish thing.
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17:13:52 <Gregor> <Gregor> XML was a great choice for SVG. I usually write my SVGs by hand in a text editor, so it was nice to have a format that's human-readable.
17:13:53 <Gregor> <Sorella> Though, it shouldn't be too much of a problem in most cases.
17:13:53 <Gregor> <yorick> Gregor: like YAML or JSON
17:13:53 <Gregor> <Gregor> yorick, sadly, does not know The Way.
17:13:53 <Gregor> <Sorella> human-readable, maybe; human-editable, not even close.
17:13:54 <Gregor> <carlocci> you call reading a single line of xml "human readable"?
17:13:57 <Gregor> Trolling ##javascript for fun and profit.
17:16:40 <elliott> 11:02:07 <oklopol> i have great news btw
17:16:40 <elliott> 11:02:19 <oklopol> in my dream, i actually saw the solution to the collatz problem!
17:16:40 <elliott> 11:02:30 <oklopol> prolly shouldn't be that hard to reproduce it
17:16:41 <elliott> 11:04:25 <oklopol> the solution was not written in traditional math notation tho, there was this black board that had like a 20x30 grid of holes, and then the girl who solved the prob put red, green and blue pearls in the wholes and drew a racetrack
17:16:45 <elliott> 11:05:58 <oklopol> she didn't quite have time to explain what the interpretation was before the killing started, i don't remember what happened, all i remember is the fear of death
17:16:48 <elliott> I want to `addquote all of this.
17:17:13 <elliott> 10:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "How on earth did he confuse = for == and not notice for 3 years?"
17:17:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wtf, minecraft is fairly close to being 3 years old...
17:18:11 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure i played the alpha that long ago. sounds right.
17:19:02 <quintopia> it ran fast, but it didn't have much in the way of crafting or user interface...it was just pick up blocks here and put them there...
17:20:33 <elliott> quintopia: you don't mean alpha
17:20:40 <elliott> anyway it was mid/late 2009
17:20:56 <quintopia> classic? is that what they call it now?
17:21:20 <elliott> quintopia: It was never called alpha :P
17:22:32 <elliott> quintopia: not as much as Alpha did
17:22:42 <elliott> and Alpha wasn't as alpha as the first Beta :D
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17:23:54 <nddrylliog> hi everyone. bored. any cool esoteric language to implement? I'm kinda lost in esolang's language list.
17:24:14 <elliott> nddrylliog: Underload is pretty easy and fun to implement
17:25:55 <elliott> 15:25:00 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/Unshackled.hs
17:26:11 <zzo38> Of course, Underload have already been implemented many times. You can make another implementation if you want to, but other way is to make implementation of one which is not currently implemented.
17:26:16 <nddrylliog> quintopia: And then I'll write a Brainhype interpreter in Scheme-omega, right?
17:26:27 <quintopia> nddrylliog: if you have time, sure
17:26:39 <elliott> nddrylliog: If you implement Scheme-1 then you can run my error-compliant Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php implementation: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
17:26:52 <zzo38> (Some are not implementable though)
17:27:42 <nddrylliog> zzo38: yeah, that the problem. Most reasonable/not-a-clone-of-brainfuck languages seem to have been implemented already
17:28:10 <elliott> nddrylliog: You could implement Magenta.
17:28:25 <elliott> Note that Magenta is not only hideously complicated, but it has a curse on it, and implementing it is therefore incredibly unwise :P
17:28:34 <zzo38> nddrylliog: There are many others (see the Unimplemented category, many of those are implementable but have not been implemented yet)
17:28:37 <nddrylliog> elliott: seems like the spec's offline
17:28:41 <elliott> http://www.reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/magenta.html
17:29:02 <zzo38> I have a backup copy of the Magenta spec too.
17:29:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: Example Magenta function:
17:29:46 <elliott> function feedthebear (enum[bear] whichone, enum[food] bearfood)
17:29:47 <elliott> bool fed;//if all goes well...
17:29:50 <elliott> throw (whichone[eat](armp));//armp is a global indicating
17:30:26 <nddrylliog> it basically takes the worst in every language ever, right?
17:30:27 <elliott> Amusingly, I am fairly sure that, despite its incredibly redundancy, they still don't manage to have a loop construct as complicated as Common Lisp's LOOP.
17:30:37 <elliott> nddrylliog: It takes everything from every language ever.
17:31:00 <elliott> task feed_fish(food Fishfood, fish Goldfish) [yp=lastproc+1, \ zp=MINPRIORITY] begin
17:31:02 <elliott> feed(It, Goldfish);//It=Fishfood here
17:31:11 <elliott> clean(It);//It=toilet here
17:31:25 <nddrylliog> why the gratuitious backslash? (before zp=MINPRIORITY)
17:31:47 <nddrylliog> huh are comments somehow meaningful/interpreted sometimes?
17:32:09 <nddrylliog> well silly questions, I should just go and read the spec
17:32:23 <nddrylliog> I'll finish implementing Underload first
17:33:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: the backslash probably means something :D and no, I don't think so
17:33:35 <elliott> I wrote an Underload compiler once, which was good fun, but it was slower than a clever interpreter (that optimised integers).
17:34:06 <elliott> 15:29:55 <oerjan> elliott: i think you'd want something like iorefs val = let iorefs' = liftM2 (:) (newIORef val) (unsafeInterleaveIO iorefs') in iorefs'
17:34:18 <elliott> oerjan: isn't it technically valid for that to evaluate to an infinite list of the /same/ IORef?
17:34:34 <elliott> nddrylliog: have you been in here before btw? haven't seen your name before :)
17:35:10 <elliott> oerjan: I'm trying to get an infinite list of /different/ IORefs
17:35:43 <nddrylliog> elliott: Nope, never joined esoteric. I'm the author of http://ooc-lang.org/ though.
17:36:04 <elliott> nddrylliog: Oh, that language I've been ignoring :-)
17:36:08 <nddrylliog> but now non-esoteric languages sound a bit boring. I needed more nonsense in my life
17:36:39 <elliott> Actually ooc has the distinction of being the one language that Sgeo hasn't managed to decide is the best ever before getting bored of it.
17:36:51 <elliott> I was going to put "dubious" before "distinction" but I'm not so sure.
17:37:15 <elliott> But bah, darned kids and your mutability and yer side effects and yer objects.
17:37:25 <nddrylliog> yeah. I've repented of my sinful ways since.
17:37:38 <elliott> very well, we won't sacrifice you _immediately_
17:38:01 <nddrylliog> awesome. I'm just about done fucking over every relationship - one left to go. How does monday sound?
17:38:59 <nddrylliog> if I'm not into ethyl coma by then, sure
17:39:13 <nddrylliog> well, "into" is probably a poor choice of words.
17:39:33 <zzo38> nddrylliog: What are you going to use to write the implementation?
17:40:09 <nddrylliog> zzo38: Why ooc, of course. I'm almost done redefining basic constructs on top of basic types.
17:40:26 <nddrylliog> zzo38: Along the years, ooc has grown in some sort of INTERCAL-2. Or what Java would be if they listened to users.
17:40:33 <nddrylliog> so many features to abuse, it's really esoteric heaven
17:40:36 <elliott> nddrylliog: You probably want to just store everything as a string.
17:40:55 <elliott> ^ can be interpreted as "eval"
17:41:32 <zzo38> I have made implementation of Underload written in TeX.
17:42:36 <zzo38> Some things are easy like ! is just \endgroup
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17:45:40 <nddrylliog> wonderful, I already have 5 levels of indirection in just a few lines of code.
17:48:28 <nddrylliog> I'd extend Func but I'm not sure if rock supports that.
17:49:16 <nddrylliog> push(popAndThen(|| push(pop()))) // ain't that beautiful?
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17:51:38 <oklofok> in a few years elliott will be pasting this stuff, going all "lol nddrylliog u were so noob lol"
17:52:06 <elliott> nddrylliog: heh "I'd like to do this, but I dunno if my language can do that!"
17:52:11 <oklofok> and nddrylliog'll be like STFU FAGGOT IMA IGNORE UR ASS
17:52:54 <nddrylliog> but if you could see the things I'm throwing at it right now - it's a pretty fair fighter, if you ask me.
17:52:58 <oklofok> have you read sicp already, elliott
17:53:18 <oklofok> somehow i find that hard to believe
17:53:22 <oklofok> did you do all the exercises?
17:53:42 <nddrylliog> ooh I was gonna use match. but that's too high-level. Let's find another constricted way of doing it.
17:53:56 <oklofok> nddrylliog: sicp is a nice read
17:54:02 <quintopia> you guys think SICP is five times awesomer than CLRS?
17:54:03 <nddrylliog> maybe extending Char with a function taking a hashmap from strings to funcs.
17:54:30 <oklofok> abbreviations are useless, there's always some retard who asks what they mean
17:54:30 <fizzie> oklofok: It's that "Introduction to Algorithms" book.
17:54:54 <oklofok> i just skimmed that once and was all "lul i'm way above this stuff"
17:54:56 <fizzie> By Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest and Stein.
17:55:25 <fizzie> But the R in it is the same R as in RSA.
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17:55:56 <fizzie> The first edition was just CLR; second edition adds the S.
17:56:07 <fizzie> I've used their latex pseudocode thingie somewhere.
17:56:15 <quintopia> oklofok: no one is way above getting pseudocode for implementations of data structures. it's so much easier than trying to remember how to do them yourself
17:57:05 <elliott> oklofok doesn't use data structures!
17:57:10 <fizzie> Oh, they have a third edition out already.
17:57:17 <oklofok> quintopia: i'm way above programming
17:58:08 <oklofok> and i don't really do algorithm stuff either, aside from the occasional remark "which can clearly be done effectively"
17:58:35 <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof?
17:58:38 <quintopia> "and so it's reduced to a linear programming problem and we are done"
17:59:04 <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
18:00:11 <quintopia> `addquote <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
18:00:33 <HackEgo> 276) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
18:00:39 <HackEgo> 179) <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
18:00:41 <elliott> *Main> run $ parse "(:aSS):aSS"
18:00:46 <elliott> yet it's still a better impl than nddrylliog's!
18:00:48 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so.
18:00:55 <HackEgo> 27) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
18:01:06 <elliott> don't scare the newbie with our insane quotes :D
18:01:45 <oklofok> but they are so much fun to spam on the channel
18:02:12 <oklofok> also, ...says the man trying to kill bots using recursive asses
18:03:15 <HackEgo> 234) <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S.
18:03:36 <HackEgo> 148) <oerjan> alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles
18:07:09 <elliott> nddrylliog: http://sprunge.us/aRgY your move
18:07:38 <elliott> i suggest optimising church numerals like derlo does :D
18:08:01 <elliott> 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer.
18:08:01 <elliott> Take one down and pass it around, 88 bottles of beer on the wall.
18:08:01 <elliott> underload: That's not a program.
18:08:24 <nddrylliog> (c == this) ifTrue(yeah) ifTrue(noes) ifTrue(|| /* make up your mind */)
18:09:06 * elliott suspects forces of mild intoxication are at work :D
18:09:34 <elliott> so what do yeah and noes evaluate to, is that your language's innovation, nicer names for booleans
18:09:46 <elliott> because that's what i've been waiting for in a language
18:10:30 <elliott> isn't everything an object?!!?!?!?!
18:13:10 <elliott> i should read the rest of that synthesis paper
18:13:15 <nddrylliog> so, so far only one compiler segfault and twice generated invalid C code. Not bad, not bad
18:13:23 <Ilari> Aiming for Balmer peak but missing? :-)
18:13:31 <elliott> nddrylliog: you are getting me soooo hyped about your language
18:13:34 <nddrylliog> elliott: what, this quaject/OS/kernel/bizarre thing?
18:13:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: Synthesis is the quaject OS, yes.
18:13:52 <nddrylliog> so hyped > Sorry, did it look like I cared? :)
18:13:54 <elliott> Well, was, I doubt anyone has a machine that will run it any more.
18:14:09 <elliott> nddrylliog: oh i'm not being sarcastic ... your toolchain looks like it's rivalled only by D :-D
18:14:48 <nddrylliog> I have really really bad memories of.. the-language-that-shall-not-be-named.
18:14:58 <nddrylliog> but Walter's actually a pretty nice guy
18:15:06 <elliott> we have a few D victims here
18:15:21 <elliott> I don't think I ever /did/ get LDC compiled
18:15:40 <elliott> good thing the langauge sucks then :D
18:15:40 <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
18:16:09 <elliott> i'm fairly sure everyone in here is like that apart from oklofok
18:16:10 <Ilari> BTW, what is "PACHELBEL"?
18:16:11 <nddrylliog> oh, I'm using closures more than 4 levels deep - workaround time
18:16:28 <elliott> That would be a good drinking game, drink for every nested closure.
18:16:30 <elliott> Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Pachelbel
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18:17:16 <Ilari> I asked "what" not "who"... :-)
18:17:40 <oklofok> elliott wanna go drinking some time? i can buy you beer!
18:17:54 <HackEgo> 111) <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
18:17:58 <elliott> don't remember if i addquoted that
18:18:08 <HackEgo> total 56 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 53 Jan 22 18:27 1 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jan 22 18:27 babies \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jan 22 18:27 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 3 Jan 22 18:27 foo \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jan 22 18:27 paste \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 11 Jan 22 18:27 quine \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 27598 Jan 22 18:27
18:18:20 <elliott> nddrylliog: OH WOW WE DIDN'T THINK OF THAT HURRRR
18:18:28 <elliott> It uses plash in an empty chroot :P
18:18:30 <nddrylliog> elliott: Actually, bash designers thought of that
18:18:34 <nddrylliog> elliott: so I wasn't too worried anyway
18:18:50 <elliott> !c printf("RAPID C PROTOTYPING\n");
18:19:07 <elliott> /bin/rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/'
18:19:07 <elliott> /bin/rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
18:19:10 <elliott> pretty sure that's a coreutils feature
18:19:33 <nddrylliog> but I think the zsh folks *did* some tampering with rm in an inane attempt to make it safer
18:19:46 <nddrylliog> bah, this might be the lack of liquor talking
18:20:00 <elliott> they probably did, zsh does like everything
18:20:32 <nddrylliog> they probably reimplemented emacs in zsh.
18:20:44 <nddrylliog> which is, like, the universe in a box.
18:21:03 <nddrylliog> talking of which, does the new Futurama season suck or does it not? My internet connection wants to know
18:21:23 <elliott> i've heard only good things about it
18:21:32 <elliott> but no first-hand experience
18:21:47 <elliott> <nddrylliog> btw where are you guys located?
18:21:56 <elliott> we have a dangerously high population of finns here though
18:23:02 <nddrylliog> so a nested-closure-drinking-session is an easy-jet flight away.
18:24:17 <nddrylliog> on an unrelated note, I still haven't made good use of my jonskeetfacts.com domain.
18:25:53 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: isn't it technically valid for that to evaluate to an infinite list of the /same/ IORef? <-- i cannot imagine why, it's no more shared than it would be for let x = newIORef val in liftM2 (:) x (liftM2 x (return []))
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18:26:52 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Silly_Emplosions&curid=2318&diff=20841&oldid=19921 <-- in which my definition of "witty" is found to clash with another's
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18:33:48 <oerjan> 19:01 oklofok> did you do all the exercises?
18:33:48 <oerjan> 19:01 elliott> ALL OF THEM
18:34:05 <oerjan> so it's not the kind of book that contains famous unsolved problems?
18:34:57 <oklofok> the exercises are not problem solving, they are about 1) understanding program structure 2) filling gaps in code the writers were too lazy to include
18:35:47 <oklofok> at least afair, i didn't actually do any of them, and i read it quite a while ago
18:38:44 <oerjan> <elliott> alcohol is plural? <-- i don't know it's all arabic to me
18:40:38 <oerjan> `addquote <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
18:40:41 <HackEgo> 277) <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
18:41:21 <oklofok> i wonder if he actually said that out loud
18:42:14 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> btw where are you guys located? <-- all over europe and north american, plus the occasional korean, south african and kiwi
18:43:22 <oklofok> "Any "if" statement requires at least 14,000 subconditions."
18:43:42 <oklofok> that's actually quite many
18:44:03 <elliott> JS quine: _=/[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/,'_='+_+_(_)
18:45:26 <oklofok> can you parse that for me, my js skills are slightly lesser than that.
18:46:07 <elliott> i'm not even sure how it works, that // is a regexp i believe
18:46:28 <elliott> x = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, '_=' + _ + _(_)
18:46:36 <quintopia> i bet it matches the rest of the string as a regexp
18:46:36 <elliott> x = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, "_=" + _ + _(_)
18:46:44 <elliott> since _ is clearly assigned in ther
18:46:58 <elliott> oh maybe the regex stringifies in a weird way
18:47:10 <oklofok> does the comma after "/" separate two statements
18:47:13 <oklofok> or expressions or whatever
18:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: oh... well let's pretend not, since he's irritating
18:48:14 <elliott> x = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, "_=" + _ + _(_)
18:48:31 <elliott> regexp = /[,'_='+_+_(_)]+/, "_=" + regexp + regexp(regexp)
18:48:36 <elliott> ok so I bet regex(foo) matches regex on foo
18:48:39 <oklofok> well right, that was obvious
18:48:42 <elliott> so regexp(regexp) matches a regex on itself
18:48:54 <elliott> the [] is just the listing of characters used in the expression
18:49:08 <oerjan> <- norwegian, and strangely the only regular one i think
18:49:09 <elliott> so i guess the match results in the regexp's stringification itself
18:49:19 <elliott> but i don't see how that'd be different to just regexp.toString(), which could be written as just +regexp
18:49:29 <oerjan> although i recall someone else not too long ago
18:50:00 <oerjan> oh wait nddrylliog already left
18:50:18 <oklofok> but his name was something like thor
18:51:07 <oklofok> as elliott said, he was Velmont here
18:51:14 <oerjan> kipple is norwegian of course but he hasn't been seen in ages afaik
18:52:47 <oerjan> actually both the korean and the south african are present, just not saying much :)
18:54:25 <oerjan> and for some reason we have no danish regular that i can recall, there are some obvious holes here >:)
18:54:59 <elliott> it's because danes are stupid obviously
18:55:00 <oklofok> not really, 3 finns, 2 swedes, 1 norwegian, 0 danish
18:55:06 <elliott> let's say Herobrine is a dane
18:55:14 <elliott> although technically he should be a swede
18:55:17 <elliott> but maybe notch is secretly danish
18:55:26 <oerjan> elliott: well it almost looks like it could be danish
18:55:27 <elliott> (herobrine is notch's dead brother)
18:56:17 <oklofok> elliott: logging channels is unethical
18:56:51 <Gregor> Sex with weetabix is also unethical.
18:56:56 <oerjan> oklofok: but but it's so nicely formatted. well better than tunes.org anyway. although i am having a bit of trouble getting used to proportional irc font.
18:56:57 <Gregor> But you don't see ethics stopping us, do you?
18:57:37 <Gregor> elliott: THE FORMATTING SUCKS AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD
18:58:02 <oklofok> "proportional irc font" and "nicely formatted" don't really fit in the same internet.
18:58:16 <elliott> Gregor: What's wrong with the formatting.
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18:58:27 <elliott> oh maybe my font alias isn't right
18:58:32 <Gregor> Yeah, it's monospace :P
18:58:35 <elliott> oerjan: Can you screenshawt :P
18:58:38 <elliott> Gregor: I think it only is on Linux
18:58:48 <elliott> but Mono is a local fontconfig alias I think
18:58:56 <Gregor> Unicode SO needs a TROLL FACE codepoint.
18:59:02 <elliott> I had it as originally proportional, but changed it because the dates didn't line up :P
18:59:09 <oerjan> elliott: i cannot reach the host at the moment
18:59:16 <elliott> oerjan: try reconnecting, it's synchronous
18:59:21 <elliott> (i wrote my own http server :D)
19:00:55 <oerjan> i've never done a screenshot before :D
19:01:47 <elliott> alt+printscreen if you have donkey porn in the taskbar and just want to screenshot one window
19:03:03 <oerjan> i've tried all kinds of combinations of Fn/shift/ctrl/alt with Prt Scr and none of them seem to have any effect what so ever
19:03:14 <elliott> oerjan: they just copy to clipboard
19:03:16 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: open paint
19:03:20 <elliott> plz2be following instructions in full
19:06:04 <oerjan> now i cannot reach imgur :(
19:08:21 <oerjan> elliott: http://imgur.com/mahzT
19:09:04 <Gregor> while true; do nc 208.78.103.223 80; done
19:09:08 <elliott> lol @ having cellebration on your desktop :D
19:09:36 <elliott> oerjan: hmm i'm trying to decide between making the alignment work with proportional or making it monospaced for everyone :D
19:09:42 <oerjan> it's rarely opened these days
19:09:52 <elliott> oerjan: I basically need to rewrite the formatter, since it's an awful, awful hack
19:09:58 <elliott> thankfully the logs themselves are raw IRC
19:10:03 <elliott> so I can pretty much format them as I want
19:11:13 <oerjan> other than that, my desktop is rather clean, the only icon that's hidden is the image i just uploaded
19:11:59 <oerjan> i don't have icons for porn
19:12:12 <elliott> Oh, right, it's donkey RESEARCH.
19:12:23 <elliott> oerjan: You're 40, you can't do that, it's creepy. :p
19:12:29 <Gregor> Donkey porn is BIBLICALLY APPROVED
19:12:45 <oerjan> Gregor: as long as the donkey is FEMALE, mind you
19:12:45 <elliott> YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE TO ALLUDE CRYPTICALLY TO THINGS AND THAT CHANCE IS GONE
19:13:01 <Gregor> oerjan: The donkey has to be male, the human has to be female.
19:13:02 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:13:30 <oerjan> you are the half-jew, you should know this stuff
19:13:43 <oklofok> so what, if i love both donkeys AND god, i have to get a sex change operation
19:14:42 <oklofok> hey i just played that game a couple days ago
19:14:45 <elliott> oerjan: i didn't realise anyone actually used my logs except for me, my ego is soooo boosted :D
19:15:43 <oerjan> <Gregor> Unicode SO needs a TROLL FACE codepoint. <-- dammit there's going to be Unicode exhaustion eventually isn't there
19:16:04 <elliott> just make a codepoint an ipv6 address
19:16:15 <elliott> that runs a server that gives back the unicode info for it
19:16:22 <elliott> then, it's even distributed! anyone can make their own character!
19:16:56 <oklofok> that's actually not a bad idea
19:17:06 <oklofok> you should write that down
19:17:16 <elliott> Herobrine WROTE IT DOWN FOR ME
19:17:31 <quintopia> just because it's not the worst, doesn't mean it's actually good
19:17:59 <oklofok> but i wanna make my own character!
19:18:29 <oklofok> it would be a perfect circle
19:18:46 <oklofok> that spams itself a few times when you type it
19:19:19 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: i didn't realise anyone actually used my logs except for me, my ego is soooo boosted :D <-- it's nice to not have to scroll horizontally
19:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: also it has a saner timezone :P
19:20:37 <quintopia> i would make a character that was the current unix timestamp
19:20:52 <elliott> oklofok: also mirrored perhaps
19:20:59 <oklofok> quintopia: lol first you say you hate the idea and then you're all like OMG LET'S DO THIS I WANNA DO SOME TIMESTAMP STUFF
19:21:24 <quintopia> just because i would not support it actually happening doesn't mean i wouldn't mess with it if it already existed
19:21:33 <quintopia> it's not that it isn't a cool idea in theory
19:21:54 <oklofok> well everything in the universe should have their own ip
19:21:58 <oerjan> elliott: that too, although i eventually learned that tunes.org starts at 9am for me
19:22:00 <oklofok> unicode characters are no exception
19:22:00 <quintopia> sort of like having a character that looks different every time you requested it is a weird thing
19:22:04 <Gregor> Just needs smart caching + big lists of constants.
19:23:23 <oerjan> <quintopia> i would make a character that was the current unix timestamp <-- so basically you want to move unicode to ipv6 in such a way that you can get ipv6 exhausted as well?
19:26:08 <oerjan> hm if humanity discovers FTL travel and communication then ipv6 would likely no longer be sufficient would it
19:26:22 <lambdabot> 340282366920938463463374607431768211456
19:27:22 <oerjan> (assuming we also keep breeding like rabbits)
19:27:43 <lambdabot> 109074813561941592946298424473378286244826416199623269243183278618972133184...
19:27:54 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
19:27:54 <elliott> I'd just use a one-kilobyte identifier for everything if that happened
19:27:59 <lambdabot> 200352993040684646497907235156025575044782547556975141926501697371089405955...
19:28:53 <oerjan> elliott: both of those should work if EgoBot doesn't timeout
19:28:58 <EgoBot> 1090748135619415929462984244733782862448264161996232692431832786189721331849119295216264234525201987223957291796157025273109870820177184063610979765077554799078906298842192989538609825228048205159696851613591638196771886542609324560121290553901886301017900252535799917200010079600026535836800905297805880952350501630195475653911005312364560014847426035293551245843928918752768696279344088055617515694349945406677825140814900616105920256438504578013326493565836047242
19:29:05 <elliott> is that the whole thing, i wonder
19:29:22 <oerjan> and of course there's that bug that it sometimes prints long lines only at the next command
19:29:32 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:29:44 <Gregor> I think that bug was only the previous EgoBot ...?
19:30:01 <oklofok> that's not really infinity........
19:30:13 -!- elliott has joined.
19:30:14 <oklofok> it's just really big........................................
19:30:17 <oerjan> Gregor: well it ignored the !help, i was assuming that was the bug happening since !help is unlikely to timeout
19:30:20 <elliott> oerjan: i'm sure ipv6 is _sufficient_ -- 2^80 atoms in the visible universe and all -- but the technology means no
19:30:26 <elliott> oerjan: since there's a minimum allocation size
19:30:32 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:30:35 <oerjan> elliott: _10_^80 i believe
19:30:39 <elliott> and /actual/ allocations are far bigger than that, the usual allocation is many times the whole ipv4 address space
19:31:08 <oerjan> elliott: and of course FTL might easily get beyond the _visible_ universe
19:31:12 <elliott> oerjan: well a one-kibibyte identifier should be just fine for anything, even with a relatively crazy allocation policy. but of course then you can't really type them in
19:31:20 <elliott> OTOH, in an advanced FTL society, who would type anything like that manually :)
19:32:13 <elliott> oerjan: so basically a one kibibyte identifier could identify every atom in the visible universe 31 times
19:32:27 <elliott> oerjan: which, even in an FTL society, should be ok, since we're unlikely to want to actually give atoms addresses
19:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: btw lambdabot gives longer answers in privmsg
19:33:38 <j-invariant> log(infinity)=infinity <-- mtwo different infinities
19:33:43 <oerjan> in fact didn't lambdabot use to give longer responses than that in the channel before...
19:35:06 <quintopia> j-invariant: no, not really. there is a bijection...
19:36:17 <quintopia> indeed, log(x) and exp(x) provide a bijection between the positive reals and the reals...QED
19:36:29 <elliott> quintopia: hey that is cool
19:37:07 <quintopia> you can fill in the blanks here j-invariant
19:37:17 <oerjan> <elliott> heh, strange <-- i assume it's an anti-spamming measure
19:37:20 <j-invariant> I must read infinitely differently than you mean it
19:37:21 <oklofok> but if you want to make those functions continuous between the extended reals and extended positive reals, infinities would go to infinities right
19:37:28 <elliott> oerjan: one message can't really be spam
19:37:40 <oklofok> 0 <=> -infinity, infinity <=> infinity
19:38:16 <oerjan> elliott: it could still be annoying if it happened frequently, as is easy in haskell because of infinite lists
19:38:47 <elliott> oerjan: 2^big is just the same as [1..] i don't see the connection to infinite lists here
19:39:01 <quintopia> well yeah, i was, at that moment, making fun of the fact that lambdabot didn't do the lazy thing that preserves precision
19:39:21 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:39:35 -!- cheater- has joined.
19:39:37 <oerjan> elliott: i mean it is sometimes easier in haskell to write something that gives an infinite list even if you just want a few terms
19:39:41 <oklofok> j-invariant: i don't know what he meant, i just went mmmmm topology
19:40:04 <oerjan> > let fib=1:1:zipWith(+)fib(tail fib) in fib
19:40:05 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1...
19:41:45 <oerjan> > logBase 10 (2^8192) :: CReal
19:42:30 <oklofok> hmm, fibs actually do grow pretty fucking fast
19:42:43 <oklofok> i never realized how few there actually were below 1000
19:42:47 <oerjan> oklofok: they _are_ exponential up to rounding
19:42:54 <oklofok> well of course i know that
19:43:15 <j-invariant> that's how Matiyasevich produce a diophantine representation of the exponential function
19:43:23 <quintopia> hmm, exponential sequences actually do grow pretty fucking fast
19:43:29 <j-invariant> using binary quadratic forms to encode matrix multiplication which encodes fibonacci
19:43:31 <oerjan> j-invariant: oh, i didn't know that
19:43:50 * oerjan had been assuming it was something more insane
19:43:57 <j-invariant> that was the final missing peice of the theorem
19:44:58 <oerjan> quintopia: btw the :: CReal test above was to see what happened when we _make_ lambdabot do the lazy thing that preserves precision. alas.
19:45:23 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:46:16 <oklofok> the fibonacci word is given by the morphism f(a) = ab, f(b) = a and it's totally sturmian
19:46:32 <oklofok> by taking the limit of a's orbit
19:48:02 -!- elliott has joined.
19:48:09 <oerjan> it's a substitution shift system, we made bratteli-vershik diagrams for it during my phd years
19:48:29 <oerjan> that wasn't something entirely new then though
19:48:43 <oklofok> yeah that's very old stuff
19:49:20 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:49:29 <oklofok> a guy at uni gave a few lectures about bratteli diagrams once
19:49:58 <oklofok> what this vershik thing is i cannot understand
19:50:03 <oerjan> ah forum message. in delicious japanese.
19:50:21 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/forum/index.rss
19:50:31 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/forum/
19:51:17 <elliott> oerjan: i'm going to renovate that log-viewer now
19:51:24 <elliott> but i need a nice web server :(
19:51:49 <oerjan> oklofok: you add an order to the edges above each vertex, this gives you the dynamic map for all paths except one, which will if you do it right only have one possible place to map to
19:51:59 <oklofok> oerjan: it just always has the same stuff in katakana as in the link
19:52:23 <oerjan> oklofok: you realize i _was_ joking about the spam, right?
19:52:26 <oklofok> oerjan: yeah we actually talked about that stuff in pm when i had those lectures :D
19:52:38 <oerjan> oklofok: yeah probably
19:52:52 <oerjan> oklofok: that forum message is spam, surely
19:53:19 <oerjan> unless tiffanyjewhatever is an unexpected esolang site
19:53:23 <oklofok> oh well right, possibly, i just thought of it as an exercise in translating japanese
19:53:42 <oklofok> but umm, i don't actually remember how exactly substitutions have to do with bretteli diagrams, just that dynamic map thing
19:54:02 <oklofok> j-invariant: oh that old thing
19:55:02 <oklofok> "old thing" sort of implies that as abelian groups don't really have a nice little chracterization otherwise afai
19:55:21 <j-invariant> im not trying to classify the finite simple groups :D
19:55:32 <oerjan> j-invariant: all finite abelian groups are direct products of cyclic ones
19:55:57 <oklofok> everyone knows that, no one remembers how it's done
19:56:05 <oklofok> it's probably actually not that hard
19:56:05 <oerjan> neither do i, on the spot
19:56:15 <oklofok> but i have no idea where to start
19:56:18 <j-invariant> oklofok: I tried induction on composition series
19:56:29 <oklofok> i remember that one of the first things you do is characterize the free ones
19:56:31 <j-invariant> so that gets it down to classifying abelian extensions of products of prime powers
19:56:37 <oklofok> then you separate into free part and torsion part
19:56:41 -!- nddrylliog has joined.
19:56:43 <oklofok> and then you characterize the finite stuff
19:56:57 <nddrylliog> back o/ with a good excuse for weird code this time (ie. trojka)
19:57:12 <oerjan> j-invariant: what about separating the different primes first?
19:57:22 <oklofok> i don't even remember what a composition series is :P
19:57:32 <oerjan> they _should_ be separate parts of the product
19:57:44 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:57:45 <oerjan> since that's true for cyclic ones
19:57:54 <elliott> !haskell data Foo = A { x :: Int } | B { x :: Int }
20:00:42 <oklofok> so take the elements whose order is p, and then in some totally standard fashion show that part and the rest form the group as a direct product
20:00:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:01:16 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:01:19 <oerjan> <oklofok> but umm, i don't actually remember how exactly substitutions have to do with bretteli diagrams, just that dynamic map thing <-- well for a -> ab, b -> a you basically let each level except the top have two vertices labeled a and b, and up from the a one you have edges to both a and b above, in that order, and from b you have just one edge to a above. so you just read the edges off the substitution. although sometimes you need to massage it a
20:01:27 <j-invariant> but once it is seperated you still have to prove it :P
20:02:03 <oklofok> "sometimes you need to massage it a"
20:03:10 <oklofok> you have to show the group can't have an element that has order p that is generated by the subset of elements that don't have order p right
20:03:21 <oklofok> i have no idea how to do this
20:03:39 <oerjan> oklofok: it a bit afterward to ensure the "only one path left out" property.
20:03:49 <elliott> hey oerjan, StateT [String] IO
20:03:53 <elliott> this code is gonna be so ugly
20:04:01 <elliott> because whether to show a message or not depends on folded state
20:04:24 <oerjan> elliott: wait are you rewriting your logs in haskell? :D
20:04:42 <elliott> oerjan: rewriting the formatter, yes, currently it's the ugliest Ruby script ever written
20:04:52 <j-invariant> What really hurts my heart is Gauss proved all this stuff without even knowing the word "group"
20:04:59 <elliott> oerjan: the logbot I might rewrite in haskell too, but really the entirety of what it does is: respond to pings and discard them; log everything else to the current date
20:05:05 <elliott> so it's trivially swappable
20:06:12 <elliott> if the "target" of a MODE command is the channel it's sent to, what should I call the list of names and channels at the end?
20:06:16 <oerjan> elliott: do you really need your state to contain all the lines so far?
20:06:30 <oerjan> assuming that's what you are doing
20:06:32 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:06:34 <elliott> oerjan: no, but I have to keep track of who is in the channel, so that I know which PARTs and QUITs to display
20:06:48 <elliott> oerjan: this is because the same bot runs in both channels
20:07:22 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:07:31 <elliott> oerjan: i am /tempted/ to just make Herobrine log only #esoteric-minecraft, and have the #esoteric part just be an interface to the clog logs
20:07:45 <elliott> oerjan: but I'm not so sure, since clog is down relatively often and doesn't log perfectly
20:07:56 <oerjan> elliott: you could drop the IO part by using lazy input, couldn't you?
20:08:11 <elliott> oerjan: oh where did IO come from... it's not IO at all actually
20:08:31 <elliott> where Html is from blaze-html
20:08:32 <Sgeo> I want to learn Alice ML, but don't want to learn Standard ML first
20:08:35 <elliott> still, State is kinda ugly
20:08:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:08:38 <elliott> Sgeo: standard ml is nice enough
20:08:47 <Sgeo> Does it have OCaml
20:08:50 <elliott> alice ml seems like a mess
20:08:52 <elliott> Sgeo: does what have ocaml
20:08:53 <Sgeo> OCaml's +. weirdness?
20:08:54 <oerjan> elliott: you _could_ pass the state explicitly you know
20:09:06 <elliott> Sgeo: it instead has a special case for numeric types >:D
20:09:17 <Sgeo> elliott, FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
20:09:35 <elliott> Sgeo: pick one. typeclasses weren't really known at the time
20:09:38 <Sgeo> <==not actually that upset)
20:09:39 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, but "let (realresult,crap) = recurse in (foo:realresult,crap)" is even uglier
20:10:16 <oerjan> elliott: oh and btw you need to get the channel members at the start of each logging period
20:10:35 <Sgeo> Wouldn't a logbot in Erlang make sense?
20:10:50 <elliott> oerjan: indeed, one of my gripes with clog is that it doesn't have this, but OTOH it already does the filtering for me
20:11:10 <elliott> oerjan: still, for clog claiming to be a "raw" format, it omits much and is not trivial to parse
20:11:35 <elliott> i still need to get fizzie and Vorpal to give me their private logs so I can try and merge everything :P
20:12:43 <oerjan> oklofok: the massaging is usually what we call "telescoping", removing some subset of the levels and collapsing the paths between them to edges. iirc this works if you choose the levels to remove right.
20:13:05 <elliott> oerjan: I think what I'll do is make the #esoteric logs be formatted clog logs rewound to UTC ... except no
20:13:10 <elliott> because it'd only update, like, every day
20:13:23 <elliott> oerjan: OK, I'll stick to using Herobrine's logs for now, and work on getting the clog ones formatted for the archive.
20:13:42 <oklofok> oerjan: all that sounds really familiar
20:13:48 <lambdabot> forall s a. State s a -> s -> (a, s)
20:14:01 <lambdabot> Text.Parsec.Prim stateUser :: State s u -> u
20:14:01 <lambdabot> Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Prim stateUser :: State s u -> u
20:14:01 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Lazy evalState :: State s a -> s -> a
20:14:32 <elliott> actually Html is a monad itself
20:14:38 <elliott> @hoogle StateT s m a -> m a
20:14:39 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Lazy evalStateT :: Monad m => StateT s m a -> s -> m a
20:14:39 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Strict evalStateT :: Monad m => StateT s m a -> s -> m a
20:14:39 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.State.Lazy execStateT :: Monad m => StateT s m a -> s -> m s
20:14:59 <elliott> oerjan: actually, I could do the filtering beforehand
20:15:10 <elliott> keep track of nicks and filter out the irrelevant QUITs, and /then/ send it to the html press
20:17:10 <elliott> oerjan: ugh, having a few common fields in a record in haskell is a real pain :(
20:17:14 <elliott> why is everything so stupid
20:17:24 <oerjan> elliott: there's also evalState
20:17:33 <elliott> indeed, that's what I saw :P
20:18:02 * oerjan somehow glazed over the hoogle output
20:18:16 -!- acetoline has joined.
20:18:25 * elliott decides to represent timestamps as a String.
20:19:38 <oerjan> btw i _think_ clog's timezone is local time with DST shifts included
20:20:10 <oerjan> in case you want to get all of the history
20:21:48 <oerjan> elliott: yeah separating the nick handling from the printing sounds like a good idea
20:22:43 <elliott> oerjan: yeah the DST shifts are going to be a bitch
20:22:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:22:48 <elliott> gah, sometimes I really hate haskell-mode
20:22:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:22:58 <elliott> if it can't parse one line, it refuses to indent the rest of your code, forever
20:23:54 <oerjan> elliott: huh it should at least reset when things start at the beginning of a line, i think
20:24:09 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but it tries to indent based on past lines because it's clever
20:24:15 <elliott> so if it can't parse it just goes *cry*
20:24:34 <oerjan> unless it's inside literal brackets
20:25:28 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:25:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> i still need to get fizzie and Vorpal to give me their private logs so I can try and merge everything :P <-- for my private log, only from mid-2010 and later can be considered even. Before that the format was really screwed up and would be ambiguous.
20:26:01 <oerjan> hm i guess if you have a {} mismatch resetting at things starting at column 0/1 may technically be incorrect
20:26:26 <elliott> Vorpal: ambiguity is absolutely fine, I remember you talking about it: the specific case is so rare as to be irrelevant, and combined with other log sources + manual disambiguating it could work fine
20:26:44 <elliott> really everybody's private log would be ideal, but most people's are probably very small :P
20:26:50 <elliott> OTOH, Vorpal only has like 2008 onwards
20:26:56 <Vorpal> elliott, also there could be stuff from nickserv in there earlier.
20:27:00 <elliott> whereas fizzie I think has the mostpart of the entire channel
20:27:21 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but i'd rather it just forget that line ever existed rather than giving up for the rest of the file
20:27:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but how can I trust I got everything out? What I will do is white list to set out the proper stuff
20:27:36 <Vorpal> as in channel messages, actions, joins parts and so on
20:28:22 <elliott> [27 of 27] Compiling System.Console.Haskeline.IO ( System/Console/Haskeline/IO.hs, dist/build/System/Console/Haskeline/IO.o )
20:28:22 <elliott> System/Console/Haskeline/MonadException.hs:23:7:
20:28:23 <elliott> Could not find module `Control.Monad.State':
20:28:40 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? broken installation?
20:29:11 <elliott> maybe, or profiling libraries, or something
20:33:03 <elliott> i hereby appoint myself the channel's archivist since nobody else will
20:33:31 <elliott> hm actually I could use clog's logs by simply making the proxy request whenever anyone tries to view a log
20:33:35 <elliott> might be a bit slow though
20:34:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and not very nice towards tunes.org
20:34:55 <Vorpal> elliott, better use a local copy. It isn't large really
20:35:03 <elliott> it'd only load tunes.org whenever someone loaded a log
20:35:13 <elliott> if my interface didn't exist, whoever it was would just load up tunes.org instead
20:35:19 <elliott> the load is exactly the same, what are you talking about?
20:35:31 <elliott> I'd probably cache, say, 2 days old logs plus
20:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, okay I misunderstood you then
20:35:34 <elliott> (2 days for allow to UTC adjustment)
20:35:39 <elliott> but for the latest log it'd load from tunes.org
20:36:03 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you need to normalise timezones :P
20:36:11 <Vorpal> elliott, my older logs would be affected by this
20:36:22 <Vorpal> elliott, but current format records offset
20:36:24 <elliott> yes, the clog logs will be normalised to UTC
20:36:32 <elliott> which will make the current day "fun" to stitch together :)
20:36:48 <elliott> and I'm not sure there's a non-heuristictastic way to detect this
20:37:08 <Vorpal> elliott, my logs use dst too. Since mid 2010 the offset is recorded for every line though. Older logs, not so.
20:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, and the files are split per month by a cron job that triggers once a month
20:37:27 <elliott> really, logging "HH:MM:SS <raw irc line>" in UTC is the sanest way in the long term, plus doing TOPIC and NAMES at the start of each new day
20:37:31 <elliott> since you can turn that into basically anything else
20:37:38 <elliott> but you can't reliably turn other things back into that
20:37:48 <elliott> it's simple to write a log bot that does that too :P
20:37:58 <Vorpal> 2011-01-22 21:45:56 +0100 <elliott>it's simple to write a log bot that does that too :P
20:38:09 <elliott> right, that's imperfect for long-term archiving
20:38:16 <elliott> there's no point to do the pretty-printing at that stag
20:38:21 <elliott> it's error-prone, as you've pointed out
20:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, actually the timestamp is perfectly possible to extract correctly
20:38:29 <Vorpal> elliott, since it records +0100
20:38:32 <elliott> that's ... not what i said at all
20:38:40 <Vorpal> elliott, then I don't see what you mean
20:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh you mean the raw line. well that would be a hell to pick out since I don't log all channels anyway. I don't log a few really high traffic ones I'm in
20:39:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and I prefer it per channel
20:39:45 <elliott> I'm talking about long-term archiving logging bots, not personal logs.
20:39:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well you talked about wanting my logs :P
20:40:03 <elliott> For logging a channel, raw IRC is the only thing that makes sense, because it's the most reliable by far.
20:40:13 <elliott> Processing = potential for bugs.
20:40:58 <Sgeo> Let an Erlang process do the processing, if the processing process collapses, switch to raw logs
20:41:00 <Vorpal> elliott, but that can still have bugs
20:41:05 <oerjan> <elliott> and I'm not sure there's a non-heuristictastic way to detect this <-- well in the autumn you do have a couple hours that can theoretically be undistinguishable if there are no messages in a 1-hour period inside them. i think.
20:41:32 <oerjan> (assuming you use non-heuristical means to detect when the timezone actually changes)
20:41:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd trust "if PING; respond; else utctime + " " + line; done" about as much as I'd trust any piece of code...
20:41:36 <Vorpal> elliott, Better use RAID 1 or better. And ECC memory. And multiple radiation hardened CPUs running in lock step with circuits to compare what they do to flag errors.
20:41:44 <elliott> oerjan: oh, ofc, i can just look at a database
20:42:11 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't take channel logging _that_ seriously
20:42:17 <elliott> but i do take it seriously enough to be sad that clog does it wrong
20:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc there are weird jumps in mid-august some year for clog
20:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, that look DSTish but aren't
20:42:47 <elliott> once I get this interface up and running, I'm going to start the Chronological Logreading Effort
20:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the best way would be to try to match up sources against each other I think.
20:43:09 <elliott> 2003-present, all clog logs. although we might skip over most of 2004 as it's a wasteland of non-activity.
20:43:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus why I want fizzie's logs :P
20:43:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I made an attempt at that but it didn't work out
20:43:26 <Vorpal> elliott, netsplits make it a real pain
20:43:46 <Vorpal> though I only tried fairly simple algorithms
20:43:49 <elliott> Netsplits I think I'll just choose one side of... or have two log files for separate quantumly views. Mostly one side is pretty silent.
20:43:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm happy doing most of the work myself :P
20:44:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well and clog going down.
20:44:25 <elliott> Yes, I do wonder why it's so damn unreliable.
20:45:45 <elliott> (For layout, but actually it's perfectly valid tabular data.)
20:45:55 <elliott> Specifically, the time and message as two different columns.
20:46:05 <elliott> Heck, I could even do right-aligned, if I was a fan of hideousness!
20:46:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, iirc there are weird jumps in mid-august some year for clog <-- darn right i remember that happening too
20:46:15 <elliott> right-aligned nicks that is
20:46:33 <elliott> well Herobrine's logging should be pretty consistent from now on ...
20:46:49 <oerjan> it temporarily used a different time zone than usually. it may even have been UTC.
20:47:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> right-aligned nicks that is <-- you know, I'll just use firebug to change it on the fly :P
20:47:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Ooh, ooh, maybe I'll have SETTINGS.
20:47:23 <elliott> (No, that can wait for botte.)
20:47:50 <oerjan> elliott: mad idea: use heuristics based on who was talking when to guess timezone ;D
20:48:43 <oerjan> hey it's the only way to detect such a timezone jump i would think
20:49:26 <oerjan> oh or that source matching up thing could also work
20:49:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Wouldn't work here, though.
20:49:48 <oerjan> pikhq: _some_ people may have more reliable schedules than others
20:50:02 <pikhq> And some of us went to bed at 2 AM.
20:50:15 <Sgeo> Dear form: You should probably specify the format the date needs to be in BEFORE telling me I got it wrong
20:50:19 <pikhq> Been there done that.
20:50:32 <pikhq> Just not doing so presently.
20:50:56 <Vorpal> elliott, some of the time changes have no lines spoken for a backward jump
20:51:06 <Vorpal> elliott, so you can't even detect something fishy going on
20:51:15 <Vorpal> only found it by comparing logs
20:51:22 <elliott> Vorpal: you mean the next time is after the previous one, but in actual fact it's like two hours after?
20:51:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean that you don't have anything like 00:00:10, 00:00:05 and so on
20:51:51 <elliott> THIS IS WHY WE USE UTC PEOPLE
20:51:56 <Vorpal> elliott, where you can see thgy are out of order
20:51:59 <elliott> Vorpal: well you can easily detect that
20:52:04 <elliott> if time goes backwards, yell at the operator, ask them to compare logs
20:52:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but it doesn't there
20:52:24 <elliott> <elliott> 00:00:00, 00:00:05
20:52:24 <elliott> <elliott> when in reality it's
20:52:24 <elliott> <elliott> 00:00:00, 02:00:05
20:52:29 <Vorpal> elliott, because there are no suitable lines spoken
20:52:37 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. something like that
20:52:45 <oerjan> <pikhq> And some of us went to bed at 2 AM. <-- hey at this point that's about what i'm _aspiring_ to do :D
20:52:55 <oerjan> just to get it regular
20:53:08 <elliott> oerjan: melatonin not working? :P
20:53:11 <pikhq> oerjan: I've got a class at 10AM... I could do with sleeping earlier.
20:53:23 <Vorpal> elliott, or even that a line was spoken at 01:20, and another at 01:40 but in reality it was 01:20 and 02:40 or such. That happened too iirc
20:53:36 <oerjan> elliott: seems to be working, at least somewhat
20:53:40 <elliott> Vorpal: that's basically what i said
20:56:09 <pikhq> Debian squeeze to be released Feb. 5th. Whooo.
20:56:09 <oerjan> elliott: what vorpal says is just what i was alluding to above with "two hours with a silent 1 hour period within"
20:56:40 <elliott> pikhq: and it's already obsolete! :D
20:56:49 <pikhq> elliott: Not very.
20:56:58 <oerjan> elliott: of course this only happens once a year
20:57:03 <elliott> pikhq: well it's a gnome version behind at least
20:57:40 <oerjan> (the spring case of jumping forward is not a problem if you know the actual times of DST changing)
21:00:46 <elliott> holy shit http://haha.nu/entertainment/games/sensation-mario-doesnt-hit-the-blocks-with-his-head/comment-page-1/
21:00:59 <elliott> "Wait but if you crouch jump, he'll hit it with his head. So it's kinda both."
21:01:12 <pikhq> elliott: More like half of a Gnome version behind; it's using a bizarre hybrid of 2.30 and 2.32.
21:01:28 <pikhq> Not that I care, for I don't use Gnome.
21:01:32 <elliott> pikhq: This is why everyone should use Alacrity!
21:02:09 <elliott> pikhq: alacrity-panel is what I'm calling my fork of gnome-panel once it gets abandoned in lieu of GNOME "Shit" 3
21:02:40 <nddrylliog> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nanavati-panels-alacrity-surprises-rights/363226/ ?
21:03:10 <elliott> Alacrity was just the first word I thought of :P
21:03:18 <nddrylliog> elliott: I've been watching you for an hour now
21:04:10 <nddrylliog> Although I couldn't quite make sense out of all this timezone discussion. Logs should be easy :x
21:05:33 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's more that clog sucks :D
21:05:56 <nooga> i started mc and i see a title: MINECRAFT with flashing, yellow "Technically good!"
21:07:49 <oerjan> technically officially
21:07:55 <elliott> i have been able to figure out upsettingly little about oerjan from his screenshot, other than that he /still/ hasn't switched to WinGhci
21:08:33 <oerjan> elliott: i have the haskell platform downloaded but i couldn't get it set up the way i like
21:08:35 <nooga> which screenoshot?
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21:10:51 <oerjan> elliott: (1) winghci had utterly broken scrolling when the window is not maximized. (2) both winghci and ghci have the unpleasant property of _thwarting_ gvim's attempt to detach from the calling process when i use :e. (winghci has an & prefix to the editor setting which _should_ turn this off but didn't)
21:11:32 <elliott> oerjan: (1) hm did it? I never noticed that
21:11:38 <nddrylliog> okay so I'm glad ooc has syntax highlighting by default in gedit now (yes, in Ubuntu 10.10, haha my life is successful) but 1) why all-caps? 2) why the fucking red background on try/catch ???
21:11:50 <elliott> oerjan: if you used emacs and inferior-haskell you'd have no problem :D
21:11:57 <elliott> nddrylliog: i know the answers to these questions!
21:12:46 <oerjan> elliott: as for (1) text disappears beneath the window and the scrollbar cannot reach it
21:13:07 <elliott> oerjan: actually, you could use emacs just as a host for ghci :D
21:14:25 <oerjan> nooga: http://i.imgur.com/mahzT.png
21:14:34 <nddrylliog> elliott: nah, seriously. whoever did the default color mappings for gedit must live in a pumpkin-shaped violet house.
21:14:55 <elliott> nddrylliog: thankfully, nobody uses gedit
21:15:06 <elliott> don't tell him to stop using windows
21:15:07 <nddrylliog> elliott: except drunk and lazy people - ie. me right now
21:15:28 <nddrylliog> oerjan: I'm pretty sure it's in fact NetBSD with skins just to troll everyone
21:15:44 <nddrylliog> hmph yeah they wouldn't be pixel-perfect.
21:15:46 <elliott> yes, using windows and IE is now old-school
21:15:56 <nddrylliog> I gave up XP when it would take 10 secondes to Alt-tab between League of Legends and Google Chrome
21:15:58 <oerjan> elliott: technically i used linux for years before this
21:16:13 <elliott> tbh, oerjan probably battles with computers a lot less than I do
21:16:24 <elliott> although i guess he doesn't ever compile C :D
21:16:46 <elliott> oh joy, parse error even with the new one
21:16:51 <oerjan> elliott: it has happened, then i use my nvg account
21:16:56 -!- elliott has left (?).
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21:17:46 <elliott> can't think of any other reasons
21:18:15 <nddrylliog> everyone (actually just elliott), stop using words that fail the Googles.
21:18:15 <oklofok> C: is a bit TOO smily. lips should not bend like that
21:18:24 <nddrylliog> Marine Corps Martial Arts Program is nothing I can relate with
21:18:44 <nddrylliog> oklofok: Functional languages don't usually bend that much.
21:18:44 <elliott> https://github.com/fis/mcmap
21:18:50 <elliott> for us poor minecraft-addicted bastards
21:19:18 <elliott> it also uses glib, so it's fairly horrifying
21:19:29 <elliott> sort of medium horrifying I would say
21:19:40 <nddrylliog> haskell, freenode, reddit, minecraft, github, imgur - seems to be a popular combination
21:19:57 <elliott> they've started to make big pngs turn into jpgs
21:20:00 <elliott> and i can't forgive that :(
21:20:10 <elliott> also i dislike freenode :P
21:20:24 <elliott> ...and i'm not the biggest fan of github either, dammit, i refuse to be a stereotype!
21:20:36 <elliott> @hoogle [a] -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
21:20:38 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Protocol replace :: Eq a => a -> a -> [a] -> [a]
21:20:38 <lambdabot> Prelude zipWith3 :: (a -> b -> c -> d) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d]
21:20:38 <lambdabot> Data.List zipWith3 :: (a -> b -> c -> d) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d]
21:20:51 <elliott> nddrylliog: mostly because i'm not such a fan of git
21:20:59 <elliott> (not for stupid reasons like "lol bad interface" either)
21:21:03 <oklofok> haskell, freenode, reddit, minecraft, github, imgur - i don't like any of these things
21:21:08 <elliott> I dislike hg for the same reason :P
21:21:26 <elliott> specifically, they view the repository in a dumb way
21:21:35 <elliott> they don't have any concept of patches, just full dumps of the repository contents
21:21:37 <oerjan> elliott: what did you want to hoogle?
21:21:41 <elliott> oerjan: replace substring :-D
21:21:47 <elliott> haskell lacks such advanced functions as these
21:22:09 <oerjan> well it's probably not very efficient with lists
21:22:29 <nddrylliog> hey, cute, my pet rats fell asleep on my lap.
21:22:39 <oerjan> you can easily write it with isPrefixOf and drop
21:22:43 <elliott> nddrylliog: they're pooping on you
21:22:53 <elliott> oerjan: oh right, I should use ByteStrings because of invalid unicode...
21:22:59 <nddrylliog> elliott: so is C. I'm not doing Haskell for that little.
21:23:02 <oklofok> i was in a pet store just the other day
21:23:07 <oklofok> looking at different kinds of rats
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21:23:45 <elliott> maybe i should store the timestamp properly
21:23:49 <elliott> like as an actual time thing
21:23:49 <Gregor> oklofok: Rats make great pets. They're like tiny cats.
21:24:03 <oklofok> Gregor: i would never get any sort of pet
21:24:04 <elliott> Gregor: cats are like big rats!
21:24:10 <oerjan> elliott: you want to allow at least both iso-8859-1 and utf-8 in irc lines
21:24:14 <elliott> nddrylliog: well that's just because you're stupid obviously, can't think of any other reason!
21:24:19 <elliott> oerjan: no, I'm just going to tell the browser it's utf-8
21:24:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel at this point that I should mention that elliott does not like Haskell very much either.
21:24:27 <elliott> oerjan: anyone who doesn't send utf-8 on irc is lame
21:24:43 <oerjan> oklofok: you heard elliott. unless you've changed it recently.
21:25:03 <elliott> i can't parse that line oerjan
21:25:04 <pikhq> oerjan: Nobody uses ISO-8859-1.
21:25:29 <oerjan> elliott: oklofok's messages used to be iso-8859-1 when i checked
21:25:44 <pikhq> oerjan: Though many people use Windows-1252 and call it ISO-8859-1.
21:26:06 <oerjan> pikhq: i doubt oklofok uses any characters not in the intersection
21:26:14 <elliott> oklofok should download a real client
21:26:56 <nddrylliog> I wonder what purpose would an util named "octocat" serve.
21:26:58 <oklofok> well if i was a cat, i'd probably eat rats
21:27:13 <pikhq> oerjan: Like... €?
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21:27:55 <nddrylliog> oklofok: even with delicious cat foot being served to you by puny humans?
21:27:57 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> elliott: so is C. I'm not doing Haskell for that little. <-- hey the proper reason for doing haskell is so you can experience your brain exploding^H^H^H^H^H^Handing
21:27:58 <pikhq> nddrylliog: Clearly it concatenates octopice.
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21:28:19 <nddrylliog> pikhq: what did i say about words that fail the Googles?
21:28:50 <pikhq> nddrylliog: hòkukàsiranaiyo.osietekure.
21:28:53 <nddrylliog> elliott: no, don't tell me you seriously don't see the ^H..
21:29:14 <nddrylliog> pikhq: that's... better.. or worse, can't decide. Omg undecidability.
21:29:31 <oerjan> pikhq: ok € is not in 8859-1, is it in -1252?
21:31:24 <fizzie> € is also in 8859-15, or latin-9.
21:32:41 <oerjan> nddrylliog: no pikhq's self-designed japanese romanization is _definitely_ worse.
21:33:17 <Gregor> It's also in ipv6unicode X-P
21:33:29 <oerjan> fizzie: is it in the same place as in Windows-1252?
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21:34:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Of course not.
21:34:04 <oerjan> i recall the 8859-/latin- sets are careful to not move characters
21:34:47 <fizzie> oerjan: 8859-1 is already "full" if you don't go to the 0x80..0x9f control codes like Windows-1252; 8859-15 just does some replacements.
21:34:53 <elliott> Gregor: We need to make IPv6nicode :P
21:35:09 <Gregor> elliott: Yessssssssss ... I don't even have ipv6 :P
21:35:31 <Gregor> Maybe DNSnicode would be a bit more accessible :P
21:35:44 <fizzie> The euro symbol in latin-9 replaces the generic "currency symbol".
21:35:58 <elliott> Gregor: The day we get an IPv6 call into the inner loop of Pango's text rendering is the day we succeed.
21:36:16 <oerjan> nddrylliog: does nddrylliog mean anything?
21:37:09 <oerjan> it looks vaguely welsh or something
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21:39:37 <elliott> i thought welsh too when you came in
21:39:53 <elliott> mrf, looks like I need to convert all this to utf-8, presumably invalid stuff can become the substitution char thing
21:40:52 <oerjan> elliott: um i just told you not to do that didn't i :(
21:41:15 <oerjan> and if you do historical logs, it will certainly be used even more
21:41:29 <nddrylliog> I'm a bit confused by nested () in Underload.
21:41:36 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but i was just going to embed things as-is :D
21:41:39 <elliott> nddrylliog: what's confusing
21:41:44 <nddrylliog> It says that ( pushes everything between it and the matching ) to the stack
21:41:51 <elliott> nddrylliog: (x)a === ((x))
21:41:55 <nddrylliog> so I understand that (Hello world) would push Hello world to the stack.
21:42:04 <elliott> and ((Hello world)) would push (Hello world)
21:42:18 <oerjan> elliott: ideally you would check lines for whether they are correct utf-8 and if not you could convert from latin-1
21:42:18 <elliott> ((Hello world))(bob)* pushes "(Hello world)bob"
21:42:24 <elliott> nddrylliog: that pushes (x)S to the stack
21:42:37 <elliott> oerjan: right, I'll see if I can even use some detection thing
21:42:43 <elliott> nddrylliog: or output, remember :)
21:42:46 <nddrylliog> (yes, I do actually use 'evaling' instead of 'evaluation')
21:42:51 <nddrylliog> right, but who outputs parenthesis anyway :D
21:42:58 <oerjan> elliott: beware of ^A and the like i guess
21:42:58 -!- jix has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:42:58 <elliott> nddrylliog: um that is kind of vital
21:43:13 <elliott> oerjan: oh, i've processed that already by this point
21:44:27 <oerjan> elliott: there could be irc colors
21:44:28 -!- jix has joined.
21:44:39 <elliott> oerjan: this channel is +c, has it ever not been +c?
21:44:52 <elliott> hm i guess you actually got that escape from that message i pasted, but that's different (i saw it in the screenshot)
21:45:01 <oerjan> elliott: there probably have been occasions. or was that just in #haskell...
21:45:27 <elliott> it was ^H i think or something
21:45:45 <oerjan> elliott: um that's just ancient unix tradition afaik
21:46:06 <elliott> oerjan: no no no it was as an _escape_
21:46:14 <oerjan> elliott: i didn't actually write it as one character
21:46:21 <elliott> i was talking about MY line
21:46:26 <elliott> from the time you took the screenshot
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21:47:51 <oerjan> elliott: oh that one, well it was unrelated to what i did now, although i had been wondering why you pasted control codes
21:49:00 <oerjan> nddrylliog: mind you (Hello world) pushes Hello world to the stack as _one_ item
21:49:17 <oerjan> it's not split up into commands or characters
21:49:32 <elliott> nddrylliog: basically stack = list of string, when you see (, go to the matching ), that string inside, is pushed to the stack
21:49:41 <elliott> when you see an "a", you add ( before and ) after the top stack element
21:49:47 <elliott> when you see ^, you eval the top stack element
21:51:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: yeah that's what I had in mind from the beginning but.. I was wondering if the nesting was particular, or not.
21:52:23 <elliott> in fact you can make a variant of underload which doesn't even have ()
21:52:27 <elliott> although you can't really do IO
21:52:30 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> right, but who outputs parenthesis anyway :D <-- quines are a tradition and underload quines need them, also i sometimes have used (~aS:^):^ for printing the entire stack with elements in parentheses
21:52:52 <elliott> simple as this: when you run the instruction %, the previous instruction in the program (lexically) is pushed to the stack
21:53:08 <elliott> ():% makes the stack be (enclosed by []): [][][:]
21:53:18 <elliott> you can turn this into [:] by doing
21:53:31 <elliott> [][][:] -> [][:][] -> [][:] -> [:][] -> [:]
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21:53:41 <elliott> so (:) is the same as ():%~!~!
21:53:44 <elliott> except ofc you don't have ()
21:53:48 <elliott> but err how did I solve that
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21:53:53 <elliott> I think I had an instruction to push ()
21:54:17 <oerjan> fizzie: we have a fungot deficiency
21:55:31 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m ()
21:55:36 <oerjan> !underload (1)(2)(3)(~aS:^):^
21:55:36 <EgoBot> (3)(2)(1)Error: Stack underflow in ~
21:55:45 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
21:56:12 <elliott> oerjan: "(foo .) $ ..." <-- lol@me
21:57:07 <oerjan> elliott: that _could_ be useful in some cases, i'm sure
21:57:24 <oerjan> if the thing to the right of $ has low fixity
21:57:35 <elliott> formatLines = (table .) $ mapM_ $ \(Line timestamp origin message) -> do
21:57:41 <elliott> which then continues on the next line
21:57:50 <elliott> "table . mapM_ $ \... ->" is wrong obviously
21:58:23 <oerjan> elliott: you should use (table .) . mapM_ ... </cale>
21:58:29 <nddrylliog> ./underlood.ooc:46:64 ERROR Invalid use of operator = between operands of type Bool@ and Bool@
21:58:42 <elliott> oerjan: :D that's tempting
21:59:46 <oerjan> elliott: um that's recommended style by some, the not chaining $'s that is
22:00:07 <elliott> but in this case it seems weird
22:02:15 <elliott> nddrylliog: your compiler SUCKS :D
22:02:16 <oerjan> hm table . mapM_ ( ... ) would be correct but also ugly
22:02:19 <elliott> or your language, i'm not sure what it is here
22:02:23 <elliott> oerjan: well the lambda is multiple lines as i said
22:02:40 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:03:03 <oerjan> elliott: yes precisely
22:03:07 <elliott> No instance for (Data.String.IsString ByteString)
22:04:55 -!- cheater- has joined.
22:05:09 <nddrylliog> elliott: in this particular case yeah.
22:05:22 <elliott> nddrylliog: i blame mutability!
22:05:50 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
22:05:57 <nddrylliog> elliott: haha ^^ usually a good call, but.. not in this case :)
22:05:57 -!- fizzie has joined.
22:06:05 <elliott> <nddrylliog> elliott: haha ^^ usually a good call, but.. not in this case :)
22:06:13 <elliott> might as well make them complete!
22:06:19 -!- fungot has joined.
22:06:42 <oerjan> elliott: i think there's another option if you're willing to be more pointy: formatLines ls = table . forM_ ls $ ...
22:07:09 <elliott> oerjan: of course, i'm protesting against the gods of pointiness though
22:07:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:08:15 <oerjan> elliott: oh, shouldn't it be mapM not mapM_ ? hm what _is_ the monad...
22:08:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
22:08:28 <elliott> it's definitely meant to be mapM_
22:08:33 <elliott> formatLines :: [Line] -> Html
22:08:33 <elliott> formatLines = (table .) . mapM_ $ \(Line timestamp origin message) -> do
22:08:33 <elliott> td $ time "HH:MM:SS"--timestamp
22:08:33 <elliott> td $ formatLine origin message
22:08:55 <elliott> oerjan: all the functions in it take Html actions themselves as arguments, so it's a bit confusing
22:09:07 <elliott> oerjan: in fact IIRC it isn't even a proper monad, only applicative, but they have the instance so you can use do notation
22:09:11 <elliott> but don't quote me on that
22:09:18 <elliott> it also uses OverloadedStrings
22:09:21 <elliott> which is why that literal is in there
22:10:55 <nddrylliog> "* Concatenate the top element of the stack to the end of the second element of the stack." <- so huh.. it mutates the second element of the stack or it pushes the result of the concatenation?
22:11:07 <elliott> nddrylliog: let [] enclose a stack member
22:11:11 <elliott> nddrylliog: [abc][def]... -> [abcdef]...
22:11:17 <elliott> so e.g. if the full stack is
22:11:22 <oerjan> nddrylliog: no mutation needed in underload ever
22:11:24 <nddrylliog> oh, okay so pop both and push the result
22:11:33 <elliott> nddrylliog: or equivalently, pop the top one
22:11:36 <elliott> and then mutate the new top one
22:11:40 <elliott> by putting the one you popped in front
22:11:47 <elliott> nddrylliog: but that's just an obvious optimisation, your compiler does that, right?
22:12:09 <nddrylliog> haha, of course - but what doesn't ghc do?
22:12:16 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, what language?
22:12:20 <elliott> nddrylliog: dependent types!
22:12:27 <elliott> Sgeo: nddrylliog is the guy who made ooc.
22:12:50 <nddrylliog> elliott: that was more of a rhetorical question
22:12:59 <nddrylliog> oklofok: OH YEAH NOBODY MADE THAT JOKE BEFORE
22:13:06 <elliott> 11.01.08:23:50:04 <Sgeo> Now I'm looking at ooc
22:13:06 <elliott> 11.01.08:23:56:56 <Sgeo> I think ooc has more marketers than program language designers
22:13:16 <elliott> nddrylliog: i corrupt everyone
22:13:29 <elliott> ooc is a pretty terrible name, gotta say :D
22:13:47 <oklofok> erm is it like a real language?
22:13:57 <elliott> oklofok: real-ish! http://ooc-lang.org/
22:13:58 <Sgeo> Can I blame your webmaster for not having a coherent way to determine in which order to read the pages in your tutorial?
22:14:00 <nddrylliog> say what you will, we have the top google spot for "ooc". That's pretty epic if you ask me
22:14:01 <elliott> it's one of those fancy new languages
22:14:08 <elliott> nddrylliog: i have the top google spot for diughsfkjsrthre
22:14:23 <nddrylliog> elliott: ... it's not a TLA, you jerk.
22:14:23 <oklofok> we have the top one for vjn
22:14:52 <elliott> SO MUCH UNEXPLORED TERRITORY
22:15:04 <nddrylliog> abbreviations.com has the top spot for vjn and nqk
22:15:05 <Sgeo> http://ooc-lang.org/guide/cool.html "jump to..." that's great
22:15:08 <elliott> 11.01.20:10:37:27 <Sgeo> Oh, ooc
22:15:08 <elliott> 11.01.20:16:55:20 <Sgeo> How do I keep from being bored while looking at ooc?
22:15:14 <Sgeo> I have no idea where to jump to
22:15:18 <elliott> oklofok: vjn is #3 for vjn here
22:15:26 <oklofok> alright, just in finland then
22:15:33 <elliott> Sgeo: that's just a rocco clone
22:15:43 <oklofok> but the page hasn't been updated in years, maybe it once was #1 everywhere.
22:15:44 <elliott> the jump to menu looks fine to me
22:15:49 <elliott> this is obviously not a manual, it's a tutorial
22:15:52 <elliott> so i have no idea wtf you're complaining about
22:15:57 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, but which page do you jump to?
22:16:01 <Sgeo> What's the best order?
22:16:02 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: meh, you've been missing out on all the neat features.
22:16:03 <elliott> Sgeo: You don't, you read the thing :P
22:16:13 <oklofok> all i'm saying is top google spot requires absolutely nothing
22:16:14 <elliott> [[bash -c “curl -L http://ooc-lang.org/install.sh”]] <-- augh, stop teling people to do this :(
22:16:30 <nddrylliog> oh well, I'm tired of explaining why my webmaster and I are two different persons.
22:16:37 <elliott> nddrylliog: no no i'm sure you're identical
22:16:38 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: all the functions in it take Html actions themselves as arguments, so it's a bit confusing <-- hm? wouldn't that require it to be simply type HTML a = Action -> a, afaict you couldn't even wrap a in anything more and get a Monad instance
22:16:43 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, what should I read then?
22:16:44 <nddrylliog> I'm guilty for the compiler and the language sucking - mostly. Not the rest
22:16:55 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: my underload interpreter as soon as it's finished
22:16:57 <elliott> nddrylliog: but i need _someone_ to blame
22:17:06 <elliott> oerjan: "td :: Html -> Html"
22:17:10 <elliott> oerjan: I think Html is like HtmlMonad () or something
22:17:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: yeah ok. is it invisible?
22:17:50 <Sgeo> elliott, what's wrong with the curl, other than running potentially untrusted code (which you'd end up doing anyway without something so direct)
22:18:01 <elliott> Sgeo: the latter... ok so the whole compiler is untrusted code
22:18:10 <elliott> but changing one file in a website to rm -rf
22:18:14 <elliott> vs., say, hacking into github
22:18:19 <elliott> dunno it just rubs me the wrong way
22:19:11 <nddrylliog> elliott: nope, it's right there http://www.flickr.com/photos/cv47al/4337354455/
22:19:19 <oklofok> is it the solution to my problems
22:19:28 <elliott> oklofok: break your heart with mutability
22:19:30 <Sgeo> I think it's supposed to be a good compiled language
22:19:44 <nddrylliog> answers to all questions about ooc: No. ooc is the answer to nothing. I'm not marketing it anymore, and I never will be. I'm just having fun with it and figuring out what to implement next.
22:19:47 <elliott> and why aren't you using haskell
22:20:17 <Sgeo> What's concurrency like in ooc?
22:20:28 <oklofok> nddrylliog: that answers most of my questions, thanks
22:20:41 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: well. I'm pretty proud of what's going on in http://github.com/nddrylliog/oc
22:20:48 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: ie threads + coroutines = pretty neat.
22:20:54 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: but yeah, one could dream of much better.
22:21:06 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: mostly, mutability and side-effects make it pretty hard to go beyond that
22:21:23 <elliott> well see in haskell we do concurrency automatically! well not really but the research is vaguely promising.
22:21:32 <elliott> (I'm not a Haskell fan I just play one on IRC)
22:22:03 * Sgeo still wants to learn Alice ML
22:22:08 <oerjan> elliott: what i mean is in order for (table .) $ mapM_ $ ... to even _type_ the monad used has to be _literally_ the (e ->) monad
22:22:41 <nddrylliog> elliott: "The research is promising" HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHahahahaha. Sorry
22:23:20 <nddrylliog> elliott: but yeah, sure, chose your poison. STM or Actors, whatever.
22:23:37 <nddrylliog> oh. I missed the "vaguely". Now it all makes sense.
22:23:37 <elliott> nddrylliog: actually there were some recent advances in automatic parallelisation
22:23:44 <elliott> oerjan: well i didn't _test_ it
22:23:52 <elliott> oerjan: you tell nddrylliog, you're the one who told me that the research seemed promising, vaguely :D
22:24:16 <Sgeo> Why is SML a requirement for learning Alice ML?
22:25:46 <oerjan> elliott: well it was obviously hearsay even as i was saying it
22:25:49 * Sgeo stumbles onto some criticism of Scala
22:26:01 <Sgeo> That comes down to "Most people aren't smart enough to understand it!"
22:26:07 * Sgeo suddenly interests
22:26:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: um isn't Alice ML a _superset_ of SML, or something?
22:26:34 <Sgeo> oerjan, I still want a tutorial that assumes no prior knowledge of SML
22:26:52 <fizzie> Just paste it after a SML tutorial.
22:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNkvASxfEWQ&feature=channel
22:27:26 <nddrylliog> most people aren't smart enough to hate Scala
22:27:30 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: well i didn't _test_ it <-- ok so theoretically we don't know yet that it's even well-typed? :D
22:27:36 <j-invariant> 22:35 < nddrylliog> most people aren't smart enough to hate Scala
22:27:46 <nddrylliog> j-invariant: trust me, I know what I'm talking about ....
22:27:53 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, may I ask?
22:28:03 <nddrylliog> ate enough of it, and I study where it's been conceived.
22:28:15 <nddrylliog> so I'm in a bit of a Scala overload. And really, there's not much to be proud of.
22:29:14 <Sgeo> That's... not actually a criticism of the language, just of the main implementation
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22:29:43 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: right. The language isn't pretty either. They like to have 6 different syntaxes for everything
22:30:06 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: they also like to pretend non-nullability. And lack of side-effects. And they like to care about Big O notation even though their main impl. is slow as fuck.
22:30:49 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: Scala is the kitchen-sink of the 00s like C++ was the one of the 80s
22:31:01 <nddrylliog> there's so much stuff that you can actually pick a sane subset and make good stuff with it
22:31:08 <Sgeo> I recently asked in #scala if it was worth playing about even though I don't care one whit about JVM compatibility or Java libraries. They said no, due to how many concessions it made for Java compatibility
22:31:12 <nddrylliog> and lots of people will eventually use it.
22:31:35 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: haha :) java also made a lot of concessions for java compatibility (can you believe that erasure is *still* an ongoing debate? dear God.)
22:31:47 <elliott> nddrylliog: It's crazy how much anti-academic sentiment there is, especially when people dismiss languages that aren't hodge-podges of features kludged to work with each other as being impractically "purist"
22:32:19 <nddrylliog> elliott: ooh, I plead guilty. I've been anti-academic from the start, but I'm getting better. Mostly I fell in love with Scheme when I was forced to learn it.
22:32:55 <nddrylliog> j-invariant: I'll let Stephen Morley explain it better than me http://code.stephenmorley.org/articles/java-generics-type-erasure/
22:32:59 <Sgeo> Java can't tell a Something<OneType> from a Something<OtherType> at runtime, I think
22:33:04 <Sgeo> I may be mistaken
22:33:16 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: that's a side-effect of type erasure, yeah.
22:33:28 <zzo38> What six different syntax do you have for everything?
22:33:30 <nddrylliog> mostly it does all checks at runtime and stores no runtime information on generic specialization
22:33:37 <nddrylliog> so you don't have generic introspection, for example
22:33:49 <nddrylliog> zzo38: I was thinking mostly about function definition (ie. def vs () =>, etc.)
22:34:03 <j-invariant> nddrylliog: ah that, wasn't there a type soundness error in there at some point
22:34:06 <nddrylliog> zzo38: apart from that, humm () vs Tuple(), the clusterfuck of operators they have, etc.
22:34:16 <nddrylliog> j-invariant: couldn't tell but it seems likely
22:36:26 <zzo38> nddrylliog: I like the MSE function syntax, just put the function codes inside of { } I also like the Forth syntax that you can just make up your own syntax if the one it has is insufficient for your use. C doesn't have those kind of function syntax, but such things doesn't belong in C and C is good with what it does have.
22:36:58 <Sgeo> Maybe I should look into Factor again
22:37:19 <Sgeo> Although its standard libraries seem to be a hodgepodge of ideas
22:37:30 <Sgeo> I think it has 20 million different notions of concurrency
22:37:36 <zzo38> nddrylliog: In what program language is Blah() vs new Blah()?
22:37:36 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: disclaimer: the Factor guys drink a *lot*.
22:37:54 <Sgeo> Huh, shutup's dead.
22:37:59 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, hm?
22:38:13 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, I'm curious as to your opinion of Newspeak.
22:38:15 <nddrylliog> zzo38: Scala - sometimes you create objects with Blah(), sometimes with new Blah(), may have something to do with case classes, maybe not, I don't even want to look it up
22:38:24 <elliott> nddrylliog: anyone who comes into contact with Sgeo turns to heavy drinking, I feel
22:38:31 <elliott> maybe that's just me though
22:38:48 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "hm?": at the emerging languages conf., after the talks we went out for a drinks and all the Factor team was on heavy liquor
22:39:19 <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "Newspeak": awesome ideas, sounded very pure, I meant to try it for real one day, and I love the guy (except his taste for arts)
22:39:22 <zzo38> They drink a *lot* of air, blood, poison, acid, alkaline, eyes, tears, and dihydrogen monoxide, and also LSD and beer and wine.
22:39:51 * Sgeo also has an eye towards Seph
22:39:54 <elliott> nddrylliog: i read a post where gilad bracha claimed we should switch from filesystems to object databases because it allows for copy protection
22:40:11 <Sgeo> Have I met a language I didn't like?
22:40:21 <elliott> which is possibly like the biggest gap between the goodness of the justification (extremely bad) and the goodness of the idea (very good) I've ever seen
22:40:36 <elliott> `addquote <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "hm?": at the emerging languages conf., after the talks we went out for a drinks and all the Factor team was on heavy liquor
22:40:47 <zzo38> nddrylliog: Why do you have to use "new" sometimes, but not always? (I know how it works in JavaScript, I don't know how it works in Scala)
22:40:48 <HackEgo> 278) <nddrylliog> Sgeo: re "hm?": at the emerging languages conf., after the talks we went out for a drinks and all the Factor team was on heavy liquor
22:41:29 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to list languages and see nddrylliog's reaction
22:41:39 <elliott> nddrylliog is now a celebrity to sgeo!
22:42:59 <Sgeo> Slate, Atomo, Newspeak, Factor, Ioke, Seph, Io, Ruby, Erlang, Falcon, Oz, Alice ML\
22:43:11 <elliott> that's too many languages for 10:51 pm in the morning
22:44:10 <elliott> HE HASN'T EVEN ANSWERED YET :D
22:44:50 <Sgeo> I'm forgetting some
22:44:56 <nddrylliog> Slate: I tend to be doubtful when it comes to project with a *blog* for a homepage. But I'm pretty sure I know Brian from somewhere, so I wont criticize his overselling ("OMG SMALLTALK BUT USABLE")
22:45:09 <elliott> nddrylliog: slate used to have a real homepage
22:45:14 <elliott> i think they switched it out of laziness recently
22:45:18 <elliott> since it was dead for like
22:45:22 <elliott> it's a boring language tho
22:45:36 <nddrylliog> Newspeak: nested classes ftw. Die, packages, static classes, and other artificial wrappings
22:45:37 <elliott> the Atomo guy is nice enough, he's a haskell dude, but yeah, concur with nddrylliog
22:45:47 <elliott> *dependent records ftw. *Die, classes,
22:46:05 <elliott> i'm just going to publish my opinions as diffs to nddrylliog's
22:46:42 <nddrylliog> Factor: Half the time I can't quite understand what they're saying - either because they put *so much effort* into writing a kick-ass implementation of a... stack-based programming language, or because of the Whisky.
22:47:19 <elliott> Also, they prefer "concatenative".
22:47:32 <elliott> The only non-concatenative stack-based language is, like, Forth :P
22:47:35 <nddrylliog> Ioke: Ola has a nice gothic look, that's what i remember mostly about it. Also, Steve is a bit pissed off that this rip-off of Io got basically more attention than the original but he doesn't like to admit it. I'm more excited by...
22:47:40 <elliott> And Forth is very different to e.g. Factor.
22:47:41 <nddrylliog> Seph: buzz buzz buzz. Waiting to see actual stuff.
22:47:43 <zzo38> I think "new" command in JavaScript should be a function like: New=function(x)(function(){var y={__proto__:x.prototype};x.apply(y,arguments);return y;})
22:47:54 <elliott> nddrylliog: Seph looks interesting in that it's immutable! >_>
22:48:04 <elliott> But yeah, Ioke is like Io: The JVM Edition!
22:48:23 <Sgeo> With some functions that Io shold have come with
22:48:31 <elliott> Although Io lacks things such as any documentation at all.
22:48:44 <nddrylliog> Io: I'm absolutely in love with both the minimalism and Mr. Dekorte (except for his stance on existentionalism)
22:48:57 <elliott> It was true as of two or so years ago.
22:49:02 <nddrylliog> elliott: you need a good spank and a recent visit on iolanguage.com
22:49:06 <elliott> I seem to recall Array and String were barren of functions.
22:49:33 <elliott> Io is like Libertarianism: The Language... but maybe I just say that because I know Steve is one :P
22:50:02 <Sgeo> Io's documentation is ... annoying to navigate sometimes
22:50:05 <nddrylliog> Ruby: I'm absolutely admirative of everyone involved in maintaining 6 implementations of this language. I'm very jealous of their DSLs, and the community is all-around awesome (once you get over the whole rockstar thing). But they're facing the hard challenge that's evolution - as is Python & co
22:50:31 <zzo38> Is it possible to make directory in git that some users can only send files into that directory?
22:50:36 <Sgeo> Python's probably the language I have the most experience with
22:50:37 <elliott> You forgot to mention the part where the Ruby language itself is a gigantic mess :P
22:50:45 <nddrylliog> Erlang: sounds old and killed, lots of good have been said about it but I'm not too impressed so far. Also, I try not to look at its syntax when I feel dizzy
22:50:47 <elliott> ...and also that the Ruby community is very douchebaggy thanks to Rails.
22:51:09 <elliott> Erlang's syntax is what happens when you like Prolog and you want to make a language but it's nothing like Prolog but you'd be betraying the cause if you used another syntax!
22:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ooh, whining! I love whining about things I can't be bothered with!
22:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes me feel superior for not having bothered with them!
22:51:37 <nddrylliog> Falcon: heard so much hate about it that I didn't even bother looking seriously into it. Looks like it sinks even *more* features than Scala, except it's not done by academics
22:51:43 <elliott> I swear my brain has a natural supply of liquor.
22:51:49 <elliott> Falcon is the worst language ever :D
22:52:02 <elliott> ah the endless days of fun me and cpressey had mocking it
22:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> nddrylliog, elliott and I trolled #falcon a while ago.
22:52:06 <zzo38> I have not had much experience with Python but I did a little bit.
22:52:08 <elliott> nddrylliog: have you seen how Falcon does monads
22:52:14 <elliott> nddrylliog: every value has an "out of bound" value which is, I think, a bit
22:52:20 <elliott> and that's used to implement monads
22:52:27 <nddrylliog> Alice ML: sounds like an educational program poorly written in JDK - but it's actually not. I should take a look at it someday
22:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It failed because there are no language ideas stupid enough that johnnymind wouldn't add them.
22:52:42 <elliott> I seem to remember suggesting some hideously complicated, useless feature and they started thinking about how to make it work :P
22:52:43 <nddrylliog> Nimrod: a compromise between Atomo and Falcon, probably
22:52:44 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, I think that's the wrong ALICE
22:53:18 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, wrong one
22:53:28 <elliott> The fact that Nimrod has foo_bar and fooBar and FooBAR as equivalent identifiers saved me from looking at the rest of the language, as I already had confirmation that the author was seriously confused.
22:53:41 <nddrylliog> ah bah, by the looks of the Alice homepage, it's' no longer interesting whether a language is Turing-complete. Now people look for Gtk+-complete languages.
22:54:01 <elliott> was TCness ever interesting outside of esoteric circles?
22:54:09 <nddrylliog> elliott: and I thought it would be an ooc concurrent x_x
22:54:16 <elliott> it's hard to design a general purpose language that isn't TC
22:54:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: %s/concurrent/competitor/, sorry
22:54:49 <elliott> but bare, standalone C isn't, I don't _think_
22:54:56 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> elliott: you need a good spank and a recent visit on iolanguage.com <-- /me thinks nddrylliog fits in very well here :D
22:54:59 <elliott> I think you can make pure C TC, but if you do that, you can't host a libc on it
22:54:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <nddrylliog> ah bah, by the looks of the Alice homepage, it's' no longer interesting whether a language is Turing-complete. Now people look for Gtk+-complete languages. ← link!
22:55:14 <elliott> for instance, consider making char a bignum
22:55:20 <elliott> and so you can address infinite memory
22:55:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the guy who made http://ooc-lang.org/. ok clarification.
22:55:41 <elliott> the guy who made the language that that page is about.
22:56:08 <elliott> libc I think might be TC because of file io
22:56:28 <elliott> nddrylliog: more seriously though, Coq
22:56:31 <elliott> ok that's not quite mainstream
22:56:34 <zzo38> Does libc have file inode numbers or only POSIX does?
22:56:36 <elliott> but you can't write a non-terminating program in it
22:56:55 <oklofok> coq is the language where everything is a proof
22:57:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Have I ever mentioned my insane export-based module system here?
22:57:02 <elliott> everything is an object? no, a proof!
22:57:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i'm scared
22:57:10 <nddrylliog> elliott: Wiki says Coq is a proof helper or something, not really a programming language imho
22:57:15 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I love good module systems!
22:57:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Mention it if you want to.
22:57:22 <elliott> nddrylliog: it is a language
22:57:23 <j-invariant> nddrylliog: what is a programming language?
22:57:31 <elliott> nddrylliog: there are some haskell libraries written and verified in Coq
22:57:33 <elliott> and then exported to Haskell
22:57:39 <elliott> nddrylliog: you can write plain recursive functions in it
22:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, export <symbol> <module> makes <symbol> visible in <module>/
22:57:49 <elliott> nddrylliog: In fact, OCaml was invented to implement Coq (seriously!)
22:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> This is the *only* way of doing anything with modules.
22:57:56 <nddrylliog> elliott: oh so it's a bit like untyped lambda calculus?
22:58:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: dependently-typed lambda calculus
22:58:24 <Phantom_Hoover> So importing stdio would have to be something like export stdioImports stdio.
22:58:36 <elliott> nddrylliog: btw the inventor of underload is ais523 in here, more commonly known for http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html (ok, for strange definitions of "common")
22:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Where stdioImports is something that's executed by stdio.
22:59:02 <nddrylliog> are you kidding? wolfram is sooo mainstream. and WOW.
22:59:19 <nddrylliog> that explains why Underload is sane at all :)
22:59:30 <elliott> nddrylliog: Wolfram is _unfortunately_ mainstream :P
22:59:52 <elliott> nddrylliog: Apparently the Wolfram guys translated his Perl code to Mathematica, and when he tested it, Mathematica segfaulted
23:00:15 <nddrylliog> elliott: see, Mathematica sucks too :)
23:00:23 <elliott> nddrylliog: everyone knows THAT :P
23:00:39 <Sgeo> MORE LANGUAGES COME TO MY MIND
23:00:46 <elliott> http://blog.wolfram.com/?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved <-- this is quite amusing, "haha i'm right! i knew it! i'm such a genius! p.s. thanks to this guy who proved that i was a genius, did I mention I'm a genius"
23:00:47 <oerjan> <elliott> The fact that Nimrod has foo_bar and fooBar and FooBAR as equivalent identifiers [...] <-- they _totally_ stole that from Reaper. the fact that reaper is neither finished specced nor implemented is _totally_ irrelevant.
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23:01:00 <elliott> OH AND OERJAN IS KNOWN AS THAT GUY WHO WROTE LIKE HALF OF THE HASKELL 98 REPORT
23:01:40 <elliott> i like the idea of forcing other modules to import things
23:01:53 <nddrylliog> Phantom_Hoover: that line sounds like you should pull out a lightsaber or something right after
23:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm hoping Sgeo will use my module system due to him not being able to resist bad novelties.)
23:02:45 <nddrylliog> Phantom_Hoover: why? it has side-effects?
23:02:47 * Sgeo exports sabre to Phantom_Hoover
23:03:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: Phantom_Hoover can fence, don't fuck with his text!
23:03:22 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> gave away my origins, dammit. <-- hey a norwegian might make that error!
23:03:43 <nddrylliog> oerjan: ooh. That's right, I'm totally Norwegian.
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23:03:54 <elliott> you asked but didn't answer :D
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23:04:23 <nddrylliog> from France, studying in Switzerland, got both nationalities.
23:04:53 <elliott> cool... apart from the french part, I think I have to hate you for that
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23:05:10 <elliott> nothing personal, it's just that you're all smelly and unwashed
23:05:40 <Sgeo> Going to watch more DS9
23:05:49 <Sgeo> I think I like where this season is going
23:05:57 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that Scottish people are meant to like the French.
23:06:08 * zzo38 pulls out a lightbulb
23:09:01 <nddrylliog> elliott: oh really? that's false, now that exams are over
23:09:24 <elliott> although I guess you might have reformed, since Switzerland is probably pretty clean
23:09:28 <elliott> might be socially unacceptable not to be and such
23:09:51 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> oerjan: are you into leather? <-- er what, no. is that because i approved of your spanking comment?
23:10:09 <elliott> i think it was because you wrote half of the haskell 98 report :D
23:10:32 <Sgeo> ....the Factor people actually criticise Joy for an insufficient module system?
23:10:33 <oerjan> <elliott> isn't that right oerjan <-- well with enough orders of magnitude correction...
23:10:35 <Sgeo> Pot, meet kettle
23:10:44 <elliott> lol @ criticising Joy for anything
23:10:46 <nddrylliog> oerjan: nope, because you're into Haskell
23:11:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: he wouldn't be accepted as a Modern Haskeller, he uses /Hugs/ for chrissakes
23:11:16 <elliott> Hugs hasn't been maintained for half a decade, I think
23:11:23 <elliott> last release 2006 but it was dormant before that
23:11:26 <nddrylliog> "Primarily for teaching", says the Googles.
23:11:29 <Sgeo> elliott, it's not that they're criticising Joy, it's that Factor has some severe deficiencies
23:11:41 <Sgeo> http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Factor/FAQ/Why%3F
23:11:48 <nddrylliog> Ooh yeah, I like the academic world - dump awesome research proof-of-concept on an ftp somewhere and forget about it
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23:12:22 <elliott> nddrylliog: Hugs wasn't really dumped :P
23:12:35 <elliott> last releases were November 2003, March 2005, May 2006, September 2006
23:12:37 <nddrylliog> elliott: it was a consensual break-up?
23:12:37 <elliott> then GHC took over the owrld
23:12:48 <elliott> nddrylliog: more like GHC murdered hugs
23:13:06 <nddrylliog> that haskell compiler.. forgot its name now
23:13:49 <nddrylliog> oh right http://lhc-compiler.blogspot.com/
23:14:24 <elliott> lhc is like mlton for haskell i think
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23:15:20 <nddrylliog> I have no idea, but their blog articles are freaking awesome. To the point that I bookmarked it. (I never bookmark anything - much less browse my bookmarks)
23:15:39 <nddrylliog> approx. of the same level as the Factor blog
23:15:55 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> oerjan: nope, because you're into Haskell <-- elliott is seriously exaggerating, i just sent in some typo corrections while i was reading the haskell report. although haskell _is_ the language i use on most of the rare occasions when i actually program
23:16:06 <elliott> no no oerjan wrote 3/4s of the report
23:16:30 <elliott> haskell 98 was a mistake anyway, they removed monad comprehensions :(
23:16:37 <elliott> and that's why nobody comprehends monads nowadays
23:17:02 * elliott links http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/ since it's another blogspot blog worth bookmarking along with the lhc one and factor's :P
23:17:18 <elliott> it's not a non sequitur, it's just a really complicated sequitur!
23:18:56 <oerjan> <elliott> oh that was a good one <-- this is awkward, i don't think i've made a single pun today
23:19:11 <oerjan> nddrylliog might get the completely wrong impression
23:19:19 <elliott> yeah he might think you're like 50, not 40
23:19:30 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
23:19:33 <elliott> have you considered getting checked for alzheimer's
23:19:42 <elliott> (or do you keep forgetting :D)
23:19:42 <oerjan> elliott: i keep forgetting
23:20:30 <zzo38> Do you think some Japanese guy might have a implementation of AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! programming language?
23:21:01 <oerjan> elliott: it hardly hurts for insanity
23:21:29 <zzo38> elliott: I saw the scans of pages of some Japanese book mentioning this programming language.
23:21:46 <oerjan> it was iirc a japanese guy who found out how to program malbolge
23:22:00 <elliott> I still need to write the Esoteric Book
23:22:30 <zzo38> Yes really there is some Japanese book mentioning AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! programming language.
23:22:53 <zzo38> elliott: What is the Esoteric Book?
23:23:18 <zzo38> Can you print one of the pages upsidedown by mistake?
23:23:25 <zzo38> (Or by deliberate?)
23:23:25 <oerjan> zzo38: just some advice, when you get so famous that the japanese ask you to come to one of their tv shows, DON'T ACCEPT
23:23:57 <oerjan> doing it by mistake might be _more_ impressive, at least now
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23:24:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Whether or not I accept is my own choice; usually I do not accept to come on to some TV show.
23:25:35 <oerjan> zzo38: it's just that japanese tv shows can be _uncomfortable_, i hear
23:25:48 <zzo38> elliott: In this case, "usually" meaning, if it ever happens, but it never does and probably never will. I have no intention to be on some TV show, anyways.
23:26:24 <nddrylliog> rewb if you prefer, but that's ooc folklore
23:26:31 <oerjan> ablative singular of res
23:26:31 <zzo38> But if I *do* go on some Japanese TV show, I should learn better speaking Japanese!!
23:26:47 <nddrylliog> zzo38: you are invited to TV shows? what have you done?
23:27:00 <elliott> "meaning, if it ever happens, but it never does"
23:27:05 <zzo38> nddrylliog: I hever have been. And I probably never will. And I do not intend to.
23:27:28 <oerjan> nddrylliog: it's all my fault, as usual
23:28:13 <zzo38> But some Japanese people have written things related to things I have made. (This has happened more than once.)
23:28:17 <nddrylliog> so my Underload interpreter is almost finished.
23:28:24 <oklofok> http://blog.wolfram.com/?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved <<< god i hate this man
23:28:35 <nddrylliog> And by finished I mean ready for inclusion in the next Ubuntu, leading to a riot of the masses and its dubious cover-up
23:28:48 <nddrylliog> any likeliness with PulseAudio is pure speculation
23:28:50 <elliott> oklofok: he's the worst :P
23:29:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: the solution to a deficient layer of abstraction is another layer on top of that!
23:29:35 <zzo38> Should I write Underload interpreter in TeXnicard? I expect it is probably possible.
23:29:44 <oerjan> nddrylliog: make sure to test it on my rule 110 interpreter. then you can be vaguely wolfram-related too!
23:30:25 <elliott> oerjan: it's not on the wiki though i don't think
23:30:34 <oerjan> elliott: um sure it is?
23:31:14 <nddrylliog> that's not the if there's no binary porn of it, reinstall gentoo, right?
23:31:35 <zzo38> Rule 110 is the cellular automata rule.
23:31:48 <zzo38> It is mentioned on Wikipedia.
23:32:04 <oerjan> although you could easily modify the interpreter to do wolfram's rule 34 instead
23:32:10 <oklofok> what's the other one suspected to be "universal" that has those weird mushrooms
23:32:27 <elliott> um like uh what was the number again
23:32:36 <oklofok> 30 is the really random one
23:32:43 <nddrylliog> so huh now that we're acquaintances, is Banana Scheme actually possible in this universe?
23:32:53 <oerjan> nddrylliog: probably not
23:32:55 <nddrylliog> cause I really like the article but I can't figure out its level of seriousness
23:33:17 <oerjan> nddrylliog: it's mathematically serious, just not physically possible
23:33:18 <nddrylliog> I'm particularly fond of the "our Scheme would require a transfinite ordinal datatype - not a big deal." part
23:33:25 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's serious theoretical comp sci and an utter joke of software engineering :P
23:33:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: as is the whole theoretical computer science, right? :D
23:33:45 <oklofok> it's just very ininteresting from 00000100000
23:33:49 <elliott> nddrylliog: well it _might_ be possible that there are super-turing computers in this universe.
23:33:56 <elliott> nddrylliog: (the opposite of the Church-Turing thesis)
23:33:59 <elliott> nddrylliog: but it seems unlikely
23:34:16 <elliott> nddrylliog: there aren't, pretty much
23:34:16 <oerjan> oklofok: 54, hm wasn't that from a different numbering scheme, not elementary ones
23:34:19 <elliott> since there are no Turing machines
23:34:26 <elliott> nddrylliog: basically "is possible" is really ill-defined
23:34:29 <nddrylliog> maybe Turing machines are just an uncomfortable basis for computing
23:34:31 <elliott> Brainfuck isn't even possible in its TC form!
23:34:41 <elliott> because there are no machines with infinite memory, that we know of :P
23:35:03 <oklofok> http://uncomp.uwe.ac.uk/genaro/Rule54.html
23:35:05 <nddrylliog> reminds me of that epic prank http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/
23:35:08 <elliott> but no, you will never see a proper Banana Scheme interp.
23:36:42 <oerjan> <nddrylliog> I'm particularly fond of the "our Scheme would require a transfinite ordinal datatype - not a big deal." part <-- it's easy to implement some of them, like < epsilon
23:37:08 <elliott> you don't even really need that
23:37:24 <elliott> in Scheme-omega+1 or 1+omega or whatever it's called
23:37:27 <elliott> you just need "omega" to be a value
23:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> nddrylliog: it's serious theoretical comp sci and an utter joke of software engineering :P ← yeah, but SE is stupid and only idiots do it in favour of theoretical CS.
23:37:37 <elliott> ok when you get beyond that and need infinite of them, but jofgsfhjkl,hlkfjhdklhj what am i saying
23:37:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i meant software engineering as the doing things part, not as a subject
23:37:50 <oerjan> oklofok: ok i might be thinking of another one then
23:38:00 <elliott> software engineering could be a good field but it's being done badly
23:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I was under the impression that SE was for those antiïntellectual "CS is for ACADEMICS IN IVORY TOWERS" programmers.
23:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, the ones who are the reason most programs suck.
23:39:24 <nddrylliog> Phantom_Hoover: right :) Guilty as trolled.
23:39:44 <nddrylliog> elliott: the whole problem is to have something super-turing complete in the first place
23:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> nddrylliog, super-TC computers are actually surprisingly plausible.
23:40:12 <elliott> For strange definitions of plausible.
23:40:31 <oklofok> some believe in an omnipotent entity above the clouds
23:40:35 * nddrylliog tries to remove the mental image of Super-Turing from his mind.
23:40:41 <nddrylliog> like he got his super powers from the apple or something
23:40:58 <elliott> why would you ever try and remove that image
23:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it Gödel? Is it Alonzo Church? No, it's SUPERTURING!
23:41:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://codu.org/tmp/silly.ogg Forget you've already heard this.
23:42:01 <Gregor> It is now SuperTuring's theme.
23:42:09 <Gregor> It's pretty damn epic :P
23:42:16 <oklofok> Gregor: what did you use to make that stuff again
23:42:25 <nddrylliog> Gregor: you're surprisingly responsive
23:42:35 <Gregor> nddrylliog: Should I not be?
23:43:04 <nddrylliog> Gregor: it makes me reconsider my whole conception of an idler
23:43:22 <Gregor> nddrylliog: ... I am not in any sense an idler.
23:43:35 <elliott> Of all the idlers in this channel, you pick the guy who isn't an idler.
23:43:40 <nddrylliog> Gregor: forgive me my rapid and equally bad assumption
23:43:44 <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler.
23:44:18 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
23:44:19 <HackEgo> 279) <elliott> mtve, now he's an expert idler. <nddrylliog> mtve: kitty kitty kitty
23:44:22 * nddrylliog gives a snug look to the white rabbit with a jacket
23:44:28 <zzo38> Make music with seven and a half tones in one octave
23:45:14 <elliott> bet it's SLOW because your language is SLOW
23:45:35 <oklofok> nddrylliog: how come it took you this long to make underload work? i bet i could do it faster in clue
23:45:41 <oerjan> the violence is inherent in the system
23:45:45 <elliott> yeah clue is pretty bestest
23:45:50 <elliott> perhaps even the most bestest
23:45:53 <nddrylliog> oklofok: because I'm trying to write *really awful* code and it takes time
23:45:55 <oklofok> in fact i would've finished it hours ago, and it might even have compiled by now.
23:46:41 <oklofok> nddrylliog: oh well, then i guess we couldn't really compete, as you can't write bad code in clue
23:46:42 <oerjan> nddrylliog: but in clue you cannot _help_ but write awful code
23:46:56 <oklofok> so you can't write bad code
23:47:21 <oklofok> see in clue, you don't have to program, you just need to give a few hints and the high-iq compiler will do all the work for ya.
23:47:39 <oerjan> but does clue even have IO
23:47:45 <elliott> but you can call functions using luatre
23:47:54 <oklofok> well no, and you can't actually call any of your functions
23:48:13 <elliott> oerjan: my expression language for clue
23:48:17 <elliott> also the name of the bot that runs it
23:48:29 <oklofok> yeah so you can test the programs without directly calling the python functions given by the compiler
23:48:30 <elliott> it's basically just function name(arg arg arg ...)
23:48:49 <oklofok> btw elliott, parenthesis are perfectly legal in names... :D
23:49:49 <oklofok> i didn't do anything today, shit :DS
23:50:15 <oklofok> i knew it, the minute i open irc after a week of offlinity, i'm stuck forever
23:51:31 <nddrylliog> ndd@naku:~/Dev/underlood$ echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^' | ./underlood ~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^ You dun goofed: Trying to pop an empty stack.
23:52:00 <oklofok> you have to start over, since you even typoed the name
23:52:29 <oerjan> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
23:52:29 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
23:52:48 <oklofok> wow that's one helluva fast growing sequence
23:53:15 <oerjan> of course, you already said so earlier today
23:53:17 <oklofok> it's like hey i'm here NO I'M NOT I'M SOMEWHERE COMPLETELY ELSE
23:53:26 <nddrylliog> oklofok: right. Learn to spell everything and come back to denounce my bad plays on words.
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23:53:53 <oklofok> nddrylliog: well i can't learn to spell *everything* wait i see what you did thar haha :DDDD
23:54:40 <oerjan> MAKE ME ONE WITH EVERYTHING
23:54:59 <nddrylliog> okay, my headache migrated to my stomach. That's not a good development. I'm gonna lie down and watch Starcraft II replays while you continue make the world an esoteric-er place.
23:55:23 <oklofok> one for me, one for oerjan
23:55:29 <oklofok> but we have to split the heart
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23:55:51 <oklofok> i hear that symbol actually comes from the shape of a woman's ass
23:56:11 <oklofok> you probably meant to say that before what i just said
23:56:46 <oerjan> ...i heard the symbol comes from the shape of an ancient contraceptive seed or fruit
23:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok, erm, given that real hearts have that general shape.
23:57:05 <nddrylliog> oh btw if anyone wants to look at funny code: https://gist.github.com/791639
23:57:23 <oklofok> i thought the heart was a random lump
23:57:52 <elliott> nddrylliog: wow this is the worst code i've ever writte
23:58:00 <oerjan> i _also_ heard that it was shaped from a _pigs_ heart because most people didn't actually know what a human heart looked like (autopsies being illegal and stuff)
23:58:14 <oklofok> elliott: yeah who write load as "lood" :D
23:58:25 <elliott> nddrylliog: that main interpreter loop is... impressive :D
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23:58:52 <nddrylliog> elliott: 25% of it is workarounds for the compiler messing up scope capture for nested closures
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23:59:30 <elliott> i gotta tell you dude, i am so not regretting ignoring ooc, sorry man :D
23:59:30 <nddrylliog> elliott: which in turns prints a shitload of warnings for "Statement with no effect"...
23:59:33 <elliott> lemme know when you get that better compiler written
23:59:41 <elliott> and also remove side-effects *shot*
23:59:51 <zzo38> How can I make permission to send git some people only some directories, in case some people are different part of the project, such as documentation, testing, templates, general notice, etc. ?
00:00:30 <elliott> That question makes very little sense.
00:00:57 <zzo38> nddrylliog: Does git have a submodules command?
00:01:10 <zzo38> elliott: Why is it doesn't make sense?
00:01:14 <nddrylliog> zzo38: very much indeed http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-submodule.html
00:01:26 <elliott> zzo38: Submodules might be hard to use with your crazy vcslist system :P
00:01:49 -!- quintopia has joined.
00:01:54 <oklofok> btw what nationality is that of zzo's
00:02:06 <zzo38> Thanks for telling me about the submodules. Now I will read the instruction
00:02:31 <elliott> nddrylliog: i doubt it will work with zzo38's... idiosyncratic VCS usage
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00:03:11 <zzo38> oklofok: I live in Canada. And my internet service provider is also Canada.
00:03:30 <oklofok> zzo38: are you originally from there?
00:03:42 <oklofok> or are you a poser like lament
00:03:57 <oklofok> of course lament is not here so that's kind of a weird thing to say
00:04:04 <zzo38> oklofok: I was born in Canada, too.
00:04:36 <oklofok> zzo38: do you have long nails, and what color are your eyes
00:05:01 <zzo38> Why do you need to know what color are my eyes?
00:06:01 <zzo38> What if I told you that I have fifteen and a half eyes and all of my finger nails are different length from 1cm to 20cm long?
00:06:15 <oklofok> well i would not believe you
00:06:23 <zzo38> oklofok: Good, because it isn't true.
00:07:15 <elliott> nddrylliog: what about you
00:07:28 <oklofok> elliott: don't you mean me
00:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> People think I have 3 eyes but I actually only have 2.
00:08:51 <zzo38> My D&D character has 8 eyes but that is just a game.
00:09:06 <elliott> zzo38: it is not just game! it REAL!
00:09:17 <zzo38> Would you believe me if I told you that I have a cardboard cutout of a circle glued in my wall?
00:09:30 <elliott> it's definitely not a perfect circle
00:09:41 <elliott> oklofok: i don't think that's possible the universe is discrete and all
00:09:51 <oklofok> elliott: shut up fag that's ignorant
00:09:56 <zzo38> Would you believe me if I told you that I have a periodic table of elements on the wall?
00:10:11 <oklofok> zzo38: no table can be truly periodic in a discrete universe
00:10:23 <zzo38> Would you believe me if I told you that I am currently wearing a red shirt?
00:10:49 <oklofok> surely you mean a big box full of red shirts
00:10:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> it's definitely not a perfect circle <-- what about one perfect down to the atom level.
00:10:50 <zzo38> Do you believe I have all of the Akagi manga book so far?
00:10:53 <elliott> <oklofok> zzo38: no table can be truly periodic in a discrete universe
00:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: that's just an N-agon, not a circle
00:11:10 <elliott> zzo38: no that's impossible in a discrete universe
00:11:28 <Sgeo> I hate discrete stuff
00:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, what about a sphere then? is that a n-what?
00:11:43 <Sgeo> Therefore, I hate the universe.
00:11:45 <Vorpal> it is a LOT better than non-discrete
00:11:52 <Vorpal> a lot easier to calculate with generally
00:11:55 <oklofok> how can you hate discrete stuff
00:12:15 <elliott> continuous stuff is just really small discrete stuff
00:12:20 <zzo38> Is the D&D characters game REAL because of discrete universe?
00:12:32 <Sgeo> What would a continuous GoL look like?
00:12:33 <oklofok> really really small like small to the seventh power
00:12:53 <oklofok> there was something called ummm larger than life? anyhow something like continuous go
00:12:53 <Sgeo> Small as in lim size->0 small?
00:12:56 <elliott> Sgeo: um it would not look like a cellular automata
00:13:05 <elliott> so it wouldn't be anything like GoL.
00:13:12 <zzo38> Now try to answer these questions again by assuming not discrete universe.
00:13:22 <oklofok> you could take some sort of integral at each point, and average smaller and smaller neighborhoods to get some sort of local amount of neighbors
00:13:41 <oklofok> ignore the integral, i glued together two sentences :D
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00:14:25 <elliott> hmm what's the moore neighbourhood in a continuous universe
00:14:46 <oklofok> you can't have a fixed neighborhood size
00:14:55 <oklofok> you have to smallify it smaller and smaller.
00:15:08 <Vorpal> oklofok, you mean like falling off with distance?
00:15:09 <elliott> oklofok: so basically it's all the particles that are infinitesimally close?
00:15:28 <oklofok> then you assume something about your configurations, and show that this is well-defined almost everywhere or something
00:16:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use some weight that falls off with distance for how much they affect you
00:16:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect inverse square would be a good function!
00:16:24 <elliott> everything is fuckin inverse square
00:16:33 <oklofok> elliott: no, just the limit of white/black as neighborhood gets smaller, unless you want to tell me what infitesimally close means
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00:16:51 <oklofok> are the configurations over hyperreal plane?
00:17:15 <elliott> oklofok: say the position is (x,y), then you take the number of particles that can be expressed as (x+n\epsilon, y+n\epsilon) for real n
00:17:18 <oklofok> "<Vorpal> elliott, you could use some weight that falls off with distance for how much they affect you" <<< yeah this was what the integral would've been about
00:17:23 <elliott> where epsilon is infinitesimal
00:17:25 <oklofok> but that's not so nice for gol at least
00:17:34 <elliott> and then divide by infinity! :p
00:18:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I strongly suspect this is uncomputabe
00:18:18 <zzo38> Do you think repo.or.cz should add a few commands into git-shell?
00:18:20 <oklofok> elliott: oh alright, so take no points, do no computation, and then divide 0 by 0?
00:18:33 <oklofok> well that's not really what you said
00:18:36 <elliott> oklofok: why no computation
00:18:43 <elliott> oklofok: there's an infinite number of points that can be expressed like that
00:19:30 <oklofok> i thought no matter what you multiply an infitesimal with, it's less than a real
00:20:02 <oklofok> in which case you'll just have your one particle at (x, y)
00:20:26 <oklofok> in any case, you're just being silly, and this is a serious topic
00:20:48 <elliott> oklofok: well i'm assuming that the universe is indexed by two hyperreals
00:21:03 <oklofok> so we DO assume the configurations are over the hyperreal plane
00:21:21 <elliott> and then there's aleph one particles expressable as (x+n\epsilon,y+n\epsilon)
00:21:27 <elliott> divide by infinity again :D
00:21:41 <elliott> assuming you can have more than a finite number of alive particles
00:21:44 <oklofok> then don't we just get the usual kinds of configurations over Z^2, but just an uncountable number of disjoint orbits
00:22:05 <elliott> oklofok: yeah you're probably right... we need the neighbourhoods to overlap don't we
00:22:28 <elliott> maybe that distance-scaling thing Vorpal proposed is right, even though Vorpal said it
00:22:30 <oklofok> if we just look an infitesimal away, there can be no communication between two reals
00:22:30 <elliott> although you said it first
00:22:43 <elliott> oklofok: but then consider
00:22:45 <Vorpal> elliott, well inverse square might not be right. That was just a joke
00:22:57 <elliott> oklofok: we're looking at (42+5\epsilon, 34+6\epsilon)
00:23:05 <oklofok> they do overlap now, since by going one epsilons away, you'll have an overlapping neighborhood just like with Z^2
00:23:15 <elliott> oklofok: *its* orbit is (42+(5+n)\epsilon, 34+(6+n)\epsilon)
00:23:22 <elliott> oklofok: so the solution is obvious
00:23:30 <elliott> oklofok: make there be only one real particle!!!
00:23:39 <oklofok> of course, also say (x, y) + epsilon/2 will have a disjoint orbit
00:23:48 <elliott> oklofok: then every cell has every other cell in its neighbourhood :D
00:24:18 <elliott> oerjan: can you make #haskell answer my qs
00:24:49 <zzo38> I don't know if submodule does what I wanted. What I wanted is add users into repo.or.cz project settings for a subdirectory of the project so that you have only permission for some files.
00:25:21 <elliott> zzo38: if you set up a separate repository for those subdirectories
00:25:25 <elliott> and have them as submodules inside the main repository
00:25:30 <elliott> and only give people push access to the relevant repositories.
00:27:57 <zzo38> elliott: I could do like that. I still do not completely understand how to work submodules.
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00:32:26 <zzo38> What subprojects do you think I will need?
00:33:42 <elliott> zzo38: One for each directory with differing permissions.
00:34:42 <zzo38> But do you think I need a separate one for documentation and for testing, or can they be the same one with the same list of users?
00:34:55 <elliott> I'd personally just do it all as one repository.
00:36:21 <zzo38> Yes, they can be separate directories inside the repository for documentation, testing, etc. But maybe not all of them go together, and should have different groups of people.
00:38:13 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:ALGOL_60&action=edit&redlink=1
00:38:21 <elliott> This is the first Wikipedia talk page to not exist.
00:38:52 <zzo38> Can you tell me what commands I need to add to the script to make it deal with these kind of things? I am not very experienced with git and I do not know.
00:39:10 <oerjan> elliott: erm i'm not on #haskell and haven't been for years
00:39:18 <elliott> oerjan: hm why not, too crowded? :D
00:39:29 <zzo38> j-invariant: Do you know git?
00:40:20 <zzo38> Then probably you will not know what commands I need to add.
00:41:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: ? <-- None
00:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, it was pseudo-haskell
00:42:15 <zzo38> There is git-am command to receive patches from mailbox. But I am curious; can you pipe a message into this program when you are reading it from "mail" program?
00:42:16 <elliott> Also *everything was wrong
00:42:28 <Vorpal> elliott, notice that word?
00:42:30 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU&NR=1&feature=fvwp what.
00:42:33 <Vorpal> (okay so that is retcon)
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00:42:46 <elliott> Sgeo: That's how babies are made.
00:44:03 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zoTKXXNQIU&NR=1&feature=fvwp what. <-- cool
00:46:08 <Sgeo> I don't know if I should bother reading about Standard ML
00:58:11 <elliott> "The article was apparently written with a close conflict of interest and does little more than assert the expertise and importance of the subject who, near as I can tell, is in the business of selling Vitamin C as a cancer cure."
00:58:40 <elliott> "Dr. Riordan has recently launched Stem-Kine, a nutritional supplement that has been clinically demonstrated to increase circulating stem cells."
01:00:00 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't false marketing illegal?
01:00:29 <elliott> yeah that's why there are no homeopaths
01:01:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well some false marketing is forbidden I know. Probably they can get around it by putting a tiny label on the back saying "effects not confirmed" or such
01:02:36 <Sgeo> These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA.
01:02:58 <Sgeo> This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
01:07:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I meant in the rest of the world
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01:30:40 * pikhq can only conclude one thing...
01:30:49 <pikhq> I need to take over Square Enix.
01:36:32 <pikhq> Then and only then will they be forced to make the most profitable decision ever.
01:36:41 <pikhq> "Final Fantasy VII for the Playstation 3".
01:37:58 <coppro> sadly that's probably true
01:38:11 <coppro> make it a PSP2 launch title
01:38:20 <coppro> that would be more profitable
01:38:53 <pikhq> Remember that this would sell systems.
01:39:21 <pikhq> More so than the usual Final Fantasy release.
01:40:09 <coppro> hence PSP2 launch title
01:40:17 <coppro> you lose money on systems
01:40:24 <coppro> you only want them to sell o get penetration
01:40:28 <pikhq> Square Enix doesn't give a flying fuck.
01:40:33 <pikhq> They're not part of Sony.
01:41:02 <coppro> in which Sony pays tons of money
01:41:07 <coppro> and then you make it a lunch title
01:41:27 <pikhq> Regardless of what they release it *for*, a remake of Final Fantasy VII would be a license to print money.
01:42:12 <Gregor> Yeah, making it a launch title isn't as good.
01:42:50 <pikhq> They'd probably not want to make it an exclusive.
01:42:54 <pikhq> Moar money printing.
01:43:11 <pikhq> And then the 360 owners can have some extra authenticness: 3 disks!
01:44:21 <pikhq> It really does get me how many remakes of Final Fantasy I they end up making, though...
01:44:34 <pikhq> Do that many people want to really play that?
01:45:30 <pikhq> (FTR, it has been released for: the NES, the MSX2, the WonderSwan Color, the Playstation, the Game Boy Advance, Japanese cell phones, the PSP, the Wii, the PS3, *and* the iPhone.)
01:46:51 <pikhq> It... Was decent for the time, I guess.
01:46:59 <Gregor> For the Wii, it's just on Virtual Console, right? (So, no real porting effort)
01:47:06 <pikhq> Yeah, just on Virtual Console.
01:47:27 <pikhq> Still a freaking joke to have it on all but one current-gen console.
01:47:44 <pikhq> And have it playable a couple times over on the PS3 or PSP.
01:48:26 <pikhq> (they both play PS1 games, straight... Though for the PSP you need a PS3 to act as the disk drive. What a silly feature to have.)
01:48:41 <Gregor> ... I thought that the PS3 couldn't.
01:48:47 <elliott> "And now, you can use an even SMALLER screen!"
01:48:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Newer PS3s can't play PS2 games.
01:49:04 <pikhq> They all do PS1 games with software emulation, though.
01:49:06 <Gregor> pikhq: I thought that /no/ PS3 could play PS1 games.
01:49:12 <Gregor> Emulation, that explains it :P
01:49:19 <elliott> What the fuck is this shit
01:49:32 <pikhq> And Sony sells old PS1 games on PSN for both systems.
01:49:45 <Gregor> pikhq: Probably not this one though.
01:49:52 <elliott> HOW DO YOU FUCKING DO DIFFERENT CHARSETS IN HASKELL
01:50:03 <pikhq> I'd imagine it's a port rather than just being the PS1 port.
01:50:42 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, it's not actually offered for the PS3.
01:50:54 <pikhq> Though it would take very little effort to make it happen...
01:51:07 <pikhq> The PS3 also has a PSP emulator, which is only used for "Playstation Minis".
01:52:19 <pikhq> So. If I just hacked my PS3 a little bit, I could play every single game for every single system labelled "Playstation". That's... A bit nuts.
01:54:51 <coppro> Is it possible to hack the virtual console emulator on Wii to play other games from the same system?
01:54:58 <coppro> or is there encryption or something that keeps this from happening
01:58:09 <pikhq> coppro: It's done often.
01:58:15 <pikhq> coppro: The problem is, the emulator sucks ass.
02:09:13 <elliott> maybe he means the language
02:09:44 <coppro> one of those 'make it good enough to work' jobs?
02:10:29 <pikhq> coppro: They've got a config file for turning on and off various hacks in the emulator to make it work.
02:10:52 <pikhq> coppro: The Virtual Console selection is, in large part, limited by what they can get to work.
02:11:26 <pikhq> Especially for the SNES, which is probably the hardest of the old console to emulate.
02:11:37 <elliott> Ireland doesn't have post codes. what
02:12:39 <pikhq> Also, it's somewhat likely that they're grabbing ROMs off the Internet; all the NES Virtual Console games have an iNES ROM...
02:12:56 <coppro> that would be so awesome
02:13:15 <Sgeo> Going to watch The Maquis 2 parter soonn
02:14:37 <pikhq> Well. I suppose it's *possible* they got an NES copier that hands out iNES ROMs. But even that is pretty funny considering Nintendo's stance on *actual, honest-to-God backups*.
02:16:31 <pikhq> Wow. There's only 375 Virtual Console games available in the US...
02:17:06 <pikhq> That's probably not even all the games that people have heard of and care about on the various consoles they support.
02:17:37 <pikhq> Oh, right, includes NES, SNES, and N64. *Definitely* isn't.
02:18:47 <Sgeo> Please tell me that DS9 maquis are more interesting than VOY maquis
02:19:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: That goes without saying.
02:19:12 <pikhq> DS9 * is more interesting than VOY *.
02:19:28 <elliott> VOY Maquis are just Starfleet cocksuckers.
02:21:30 <Sgeo> You know, I have all these issues.. but when I meet someone who has actual issues, and a good reason for them, I just feel... weird
02:21:51 <Sgeo> Met a very short girl some time ago. She has some sort of.. digestive issues, I guess
02:22:00 <Sgeo> Things like that
02:22:25 <Sgeo> I know what she told me, I don't want to say it for some weird reason
02:22:33 <Sgeo> Despite not really knowing what it is, just the name
02:22:44 <Sgeo> [And no, I'm not talking about Alluded-To here]
02:23:58 <elliott> That is not as good a name as tall-orexia.
02:25:47 <Sgeo> I don't drive because.. because. A girl I know doesn't drive because she's mostly blind
02:26:18 <elliott> *I don't drive because my dad
02:26:57 <pikhq> *I don't do anything because my dad
02:27:45 <elliott> Apart from go to a terrible college
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02:51:49 <Sgeo> Verbal security authorizations suck
02:51:58 <Sgeo> Gul Dukat: ADL-40
02:53:26 <Sgeo> are you indicating that it becomes a plot point?
03:31:43 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yn1P72I7CY Python Bee. Contestants must think of, and then orally dictate their code, character by character. It must work first time.
03:31:49 <elliott> They are not allowed to see it.
03:33:57 <elliott> Oooh, should have used elif.
03:34:09 <elliott> This ain't gonna handle ")(" properly.
03:35:09 <acetoline> elliott, it would suck to make whitespace mistakes
03:35:23 <elliott> i coulda done that fast... prolly not
03:35:38 <elliott> bonus points if you can rap it
03:36:27 <j-invariant> "In the spirit of ‘the new programming’, the engineering of coincidence is replaced by the propagation of consequence." McBride & McKinna
03:36:57 <elliott> j-invariant: watch this python bee
03:38:16 <j-invariant> why do they have to spell they should just say the words
03:38:24 <elliott> j-invariant: because it's another cognitive load
03:40:30 <elliott> j-invariant: um they said that before
03:40:41 <elliott> another dude does it after
03:40:48 <elliott> but i think he is going to do it wrong
03:41:10 <elliott> j-invariant: difficult, I just did it myself with a mental image, and I managed it, but I made a mistake at a vital point, and it was basically a direct copy of the first guy's program
03:41:17 <elliott> if I'd just been given the challenge I'd be hyperventilating
03:41:41 <elliott> bet it's easier with a brace language :D
03:41:50 <elliott> j-invariant: hardcore version: bf interpreter
03:42:34 <elliott> yeah that'd be good, we should do that at the First Official Esoteric Meetup (which will never happen)
03:42:40 <elliott> j-invariant: "parentheses"
03:43:08 <elliott> his rhythm is good though when he's going
03:43:27 <elliott> this would be fun in haskell
03:43:54 <elliott> pointfree bf interp in haskell
03:44:04 <elliott> you can basically have useless variables lying around
03:44:10 <elliott> it has to be right first fucking time
03:44:16 <j-invariant> which is capable of running the program :P
03:45:41 <elliott> he's just counting the ( and )s
03:46:24 <j-invariant> the first guy did x-y, the second guy did (x,y).. but he did forget to check x-y == 0 aka x==y
03:46:55 <elliott> this would be a good thing to do, like as a regular challenge thing
03:46:57 <elliott> this problem is pretty simple
03:47:02 <elliott> I bet you could do a lot more, with practice
03:47:03 <coppro> what are you rambling about
03:47:11 <elliott> like once you write a function, forgetting the text, and just remembering what it does
03:47:23 <j-invariant> you could try a natural language programming language
03:47:41 <elliott> j-invariant: haskell would be more fun
03:47:50 <elliott> since every program is short enough to write entirely in your head lol
03:48:01 <coppro> will this make any more sense if I look at the logs?
03:51:02 <quintopia> nothing in particular, you have a good heart I GUESS.
03:52:34 <elliott> j-invariant: what is this shit explain it to me http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.3.1.0/doc/html/GHC-IO-Encoding-Types.html
03:54:43 <quintopia> i will point it out to you next time you say so,ething crazy
03:54:47 <elliott> Close parenthesis close parenthesis close ... parenthesis, close parenthesis, close parenthesis. "That's one too many." FUCK!
03:55:17 <coppro> also there is too much elliott in this conversation
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04:00:00 <zzo38> I played Pokemon card today. We played with large decks (each player had half of the entire collection of cards, selected at random), rock-paper-scissors, nine side-cards each, and no coins. I lost by one card (if my opponent failed to get an energy card we probably would have tied).
04:05:30 <j-invariant> I used to play that but I can't remember the rules
04:05:50 <elliott> j-invariant: I've gotta write that live programming war bot sometime
04:06:11 <elliott> j-invariant: basically you have this bot
04:06:15 <elliott> j-invariant: you know games like corewars?
04:06:25 <elliott> two programs try and make the other crash?
04:06:33 <elliott> you'd write the programs live
04:06:36 <elliott> they run at a fixed, slow speed
04:06:42 <elliott> like say 2 instructions per second
04:06:46 <elliott> and the irc bot prints regular status updates
04:06:51 <elliott> meanwhile, everything you write is appended to your program
04:07:02 <elliott> so you have to constantly improve your bots
04:07:27 <zzo38> You do not know the rules? We did not use all the normal rules anyways. One, we did not use any coin, we used rock-paper-scissors (Janken) instead. Second, whoever has lower level active card plays first. Third, ties stand, there is no sudden deathmatch.
04:07:53 <zzo38> And I prefer these modified rules.
04:08:26 <Sgeo> elliott, do you think I'm mistaken in thinking that Factor's module system sucks?
04:08:39 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't really care, but its module system seems fine to me.
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04:17:46 <Sgeo> elliott, what about Monticello
04:20:14 <elliott> Vorpal: GNU tla system requirements list "The null Device Your system must have /dev/null. Information directed to /dev/null should simply disappear from the universe. As a special "Green Software" measure, we have made provisions that will enable your computers to convert that discarded information into heat, which you may use to supplement conventional heating systems."
04:20:17 <elliott> This is the worst tutorial ever.
04:26:53 <j-invariant> An imaginary Robert Harper reminds me to remark that the use of functions to account
04:26:56 <j-invariant> for type dependency in the σ constructor does not constitute ‘higher-order abstract syntax’
04:27:20 <j-invariant> http://math.andrej.com/2011/01/03/the-dialectica-interpertation-in-coq/comment-page-1/#comment-14608
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04:31:02 <elliott> where's that post about comparing those functions on Cantor
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04:32:21 <j-invariant> http://math.andrej.com/2008/11/21/a-haskell-monad-for-infinite-search-in-finite-time/
04:32:38 <elliott> j-invariant: so the real answer is "yes" not "no"? :P
04:33:17 <elliott> the post had a bunch of successively optimised implementations
04:33:25 <elliott> http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/
04:33:54 <elliott> i miss it when ghci printed ascii art on startup :(
04:35:03 <j-invariant> Data = Mu . interpret -- IT all makes sense now!
04:36:12 <elliott> j-invariant: there is also this really cool thing: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/searchable-data-types/
04:36:37 <elliott> j-invariant: exploiting the fact that haskell's nats are actually conats to do a search on functions
04:39:57 <j-invariant> the moment I figured out how it worked I was like "fuck. that's lame"
04:40:06 <elliott> j-invariant: it's lame, but it's fun :)
04:40:22 <elliott> but it is cool, whatever you say :D
04:42:13 <j-invariant> it's really the x*x == 15 function that matters, rather than the other one
04:42:33 <j-invariant> for other problems it might not terminate even though nothing satisfies the property
04:44:02 <j-invariant> it should return Nothing but instead it gives Just (fix Succ)
04:45:11 <elliott> j-invariant: return is fine
04:45:17 <elliott> j-invariant: "reduce to" if you want to be anal
04:45:36 <elliott> j-invariant: it doesn't return Just (fix Succ) does it?
04:45:47 <j-invariant> elliott: well I think it does, haven't tried
04:45:50 <elliott> j-invariant: actually it returns _|_
04:45:52 <elliott> because it checks the result
04:46:06 <elliott> Succ (Succ (Succ ...)) > Succ (Succ (Succ ...))
04:46:27 <elliott> so actually, if it ever returns (Just foo), the result is correct
04:46:34 <elliott> if it ever returns Nothing, there is no result
04:46:40 <elliott> if it hangs, there is no result (<- ?)
04:47:51 <elliott> j-invariant: so actually this is more interesting than it first appears
04:48:15 <elliott> j-invariant: of course, if your property is False for all natural numbers, but somehow _true_ on (fix Succ), then you will get back Just (fix Succ)
04:48:25 <elliott> but are there any such properties that you can do with a total function?
04:48:50 <elliott> j-invariant: so I'd say this program is almost as impossible-seeming as the other!
04:49:07 <j-invariant> I think it must be impossible, because you can encoding halting problem as checking if a number is finite or not
04:49:19 <elliott> so actually this works perfectly
04:49:37 <elliott> j-invariant: crazy idea: integrate this into quickcheck :D
04:49:43 <elliott> just cap the number of recursions it does to stop it inf-looping
04:50:03 <elliott> j-invariant: "It looks like the key point is that the predicate must terminate on infinity, which means that it can only inspect a bounded amount of Succs before terminating. Fascinating!" --apfelmus
04:50:21 <elliott> j-invariant: but as luke said, it's explicitly only for total functions
04:51:15 <elliott> j-invariant: this kind of stuff is awesome
04:51:20 <elliott> although i'm not sure how to define "this kind of stuff"
04:51:34 <quintopia> elliott: have you figured out how drunk i am yet?
04:51:41 <elliott> quintopia: from your first line, my friend.
04:53:12 <j-invariant> the ornaments paper is about GADTs sort of
04:54:02 <elliott> maybe i will do something interesting tomorrow
04:54:12 <elliott> or get that log interface fixed!
04:54:14 <elliott> j-invariant: i have no idea.
04:54:33 <elliott> maybe i'll figure out how to define interesting and then figure out an efficient procedure to search for interesting things
04:54:37 <elliott> which would, in itself, be interesting
04:54:42 <elliott> and thus defeat the point.
04:54:47 <elliott> this is a sign i'm tired isn't it
04:54:53 <elliott> it's 5 fucking am j-invariant aren't you in the uk
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04:58:43 <zzo38> Do you want to join TeXnicard?
04:59:19 <j-invariant> No thanks, I wouldn't have anything to add
05:00:25 <zzo38> j-invariant: I did not mean anyone in particular.
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06:03:57 <Sgeo> http://mashable.com/2011/01/22/the-internet-is-running-out-of-space-kind-of/ it's hit [not-quite] mainstream media
06:04:40 <pikhq> Gah. Still no IANA depletion.
06:05:33 <pikhq> Just finish it already, IANA. Hell, force APNIC to take some addresses for all I care.
06:05:59 <Sgeo> pikhq, just because you're impatient?
06:06:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: At this point it's just pointless drawing it out.
06:07:22 <pikhq> Not to mention somewhat unusual; APNIC usually tries to allocate once they get below 2 /8s, IIRC...
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06:23:10 <zzo38> I set up TeXnicard_Extra repository by now.
06:23:33 <Sgeo> Factor's standard library seems to include every concurrency primitive under the sun
06:23:46 <Sgeo> I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing, but I suspect bad
06:23:57 <zzo38> Sgeo: How many are there?
06:24:15 <Sgeo> It supports both synchronous channels (CSP) and actors
06:24:52 <Sgeo> As well as more typical locks
06:25:27 <Sgeo> And promises/futures, although I suppose those aren't an independent concurrency paradigm
06:27:25 <Sgeo> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/vocab-concurrency.html and http://docs.factorcode.org/content/vocab-channels.html
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06:28:13 <zzo38> What do the icons mean?
06:29:11 <Sgeo> I'm not entirely sure, actually
06:30:00 <zzo38> I have seen the Factor documentations before, too, I do not know what the icons are for.
06:33:06 <zzo38> Do you have any ideas about what they might be for?
06:34:24 <zzo38> Now I looked at the filenames for the icons.
06:38:37 <zzo38> But I do not even understand what all of these things means anyways, since I did not write a program in Factor.
06:39:11 <Sgeo> A normal word is just a word
06:39:29 <Sgeo> A generic word is a word that dispatches based on the ... type of one or more of its arguments
06:40:02 <Sgeo> A symbol word is a word that just puts itself on the stack. I think they're used to represent classes
06:41:36 <Sgeo> (I think that's what a symbol is, anyway. Let me check)
06:41:57 <Sgeo> "A symbol pushes itself on the stack when executed. "
06:50:27 <zzo38> Are parsing words meaning execute immediately while parsing so that you can make your own parsing?
07:07:12 <Sgeo> Um, I think they're executed during execution, not entirely sure though
07:07:30 <Sgeo> Actually, I have no idea
07:07:41 <Sgeo> I do have some idea how to test it though
07:08:16 <Sgeo> : and ; are both parsing words..
07:10:03 <Sgeo> ( scratchpad ) [ : mytest ( -- val ) 5 ; ]
07:10:03 <Sgeo> --- Data stack:
07:10:03 <Sgeo> ( scratchpad ) mytest
07:10:03 <Sgeo> --- Data stack:
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07:11:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, but yes, you can make your own parsing
07:12:30 <Sgeo> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-parsing-words.html
07:13:23 <coppro> I can make my own parsing?
07:24:26 <zzo38> Please read this http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard_Extra.git
07:25:16 <zzo38> Notify me if you can help the project by sending files there.
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09:45:21 <oklofok> haha, that was the best dream ever
09:45:28 <oklofok> i was waiting for the death penalty
09:47:19 <oklofok> also in another dream i could give myself a blowjob, that was almost as fun
09:50:13 <oklofok> we just sat on the couch with murderers, i tried to remember what i had done and cried like a little girl and asked them if i could be tried in finland instead (for some reason i lived in u.s.)
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09:51:24 <oklofok> well i didn't cry all the time, feelings shifted rather randomly
09:53:39 <oklofok> at some point i even tried to find some sort of proof that there's something after this life, or otherwise make myself accept the fact that i'm going to stop living to "calm me down until they kill me"
09:53:53 <oklofok> because i didn't want to go like a shaking little loser
09:55:16 <oklofok> anyhow finally i went completely insane from the insanity of the situation and woke up, maybe this was a wake-up call for me to stop taking days off doing my master's thesis
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09:56:55 <oklofok> hi Phantom_Hoover, i dreamt i could give myself a blowjob
09:58:03 <oklofok> well it was more for the other ppl on the channel
09:58:56 <oklofok> anyway, i think i'll make this day count, see you
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10:11:33 <acetoline> Am I the only one who doesn't like Foundation?
10:12:04 <acetoline> I think a Foundation movie would seriously suck
10:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It wouldn't if done well, but it won't be done well by Emmerich.
11:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, HAVE YOU COMPOSED SUPERTURING'S THEME TUNE YET
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12:11:50 <oerjan> 00:00:43 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
12:11:51 <fungot> oerjan: action is better than scheme"
12:12:40 <oerjan> sheesh pasting changed the formatting to the exact opposite
12:12:56 <oerjan> <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
12:12:56 <fungot> oerjan: i just want ( as first thing to learn.
12:13:34 <oerjan> elliott: i think you might want after the date too
12:14:12 <oerjan> also it's still proportional front here
12:25:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, interesting paste
12:26:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, he hates fixed font iirc?
12:26:26 <oerjan> um no the logs were definitely _supposed_ to be monospace
12:27:22 <oerjan> (the paste itself is just the output of the underload fibonacci program)
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13:39:54 <Ilari> Hah: "New Study Shows that Lying About Your Hamburger Intake Prevents Disease and Death When You Eat a Low-Carb Diet High in Carbohydrates".
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14:05:47 <ais523> hmm: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Works_in_progress/&oldid=20846
14:06:03 <ais523> spambot title, and spambot-reminiscent text, except it all makes perfect sense and there's no actual spam
14:06:39 <ais523> it's clearly bot-generated, but I was wondering if I should leave it as a testament to the day when spambots got so good at trying to look legitimate that they forgot to spam
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14:14:25 <ais523> hmm, still seven /8s unallocated
14:15:30 * ais523 deletes the spambot text
14:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to have no mechanism for easy RSS subscription, and it has no facility for temporary file downloads.
14:20:39 <ais523> most browsers implement temporary file downloads as just downloading the file to /tmp (or another directory with similar semantics)
14:21:02 <ais523> also, people use browsers for RSS? I'm sure Google would want you to use Google Reader; I use Akregator myself
14:21:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm wondering if you could just set /tmp as the default location to download to
14:21:29 <Vorpal> * ais523 deletes the spambot text <-- I didn't read it in time. What was it about?
14:21:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it was probably a theoretical copyright violation or something.
14:21:48 <ais523> oh, it's just the typical "I'm new here, hello everyone at esolangs.org" but with worse grammar
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14:22:05 <ais523> completely useless, but it's trying to fit in to the extent that it isn't actually spam
14:22:44 <Ilari> Probably a probe... Or an URL spamming attempt.
14:22:45 <ais523> == hello! == I'm new here @ esolangs.org and wanna say hi to all the guys/gals of this board!
14:23:03 <ais523> Ilari: yep, it probably tried to fill in the URL field with spam, didn't find one, and sent the spam anyway
14:23:22 <ais523> esolangs.org only has a CAPTCHA on anons if they try to introduce new external links
14:23:37 <ais523> Vorpal: on blogs, etc, there's often a field to enter your homepage on comments, and your comment links to it
14:23:50 <Vorpal> ais523, well mediawiki never had that
14:24:01 <Vorpal> ais523, and mediawiki is large enough to handle specially
14:24:02 <ais523> but the spambot probably doesn't realise it's actually on mediawiki
14:24:07 <Vorpal> I mean, wikipedia and so on
14:24:14 <ais523> (actually, that one might, it uses == hello! == heading syntax)
14:24:28 <ais523> wikipedia's anti-spam measures are somewhat different from esolang's
14:24:53 <ais523> (I should know, possibly better than anyone else...)
14:25:42 <Ilari> If it accepts user comments, try to spam it... :-)
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14:27:07 <ais523> my favourite bit of spam on Esolang was the one that was almost impossible to delete, because any attempt to delete it tripped the spam filter
14:27:28 <ais523> because apparently, the title of the page was on a list of banned referrers, of all things
14:27:44 <ais523> eventually we (collectively) realised that you could spoof your referrer and delete it that way
14:28:07 <ais523> and my Firefox has been configured to send no referrer to Esolang ever since
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14:30:15 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you configure that
14:30:59 <ais523> RefControl, to be precise
14:31:26 <ais523> you can configure it per-site to give a real referrer, no referrer, or to lie about the referrer in a variety of ways
14:39:42 <ais523> hmm, useful discovery: I don't need to log out and in again in order to get sound working when it goes wrong, "killall pulseaudio" works around 2 times in 3
15:01:59 <Sgeo> Chrome is starting to get on my nerves again
15:02:08 <Sgeo> Does Firefox really suck as badly as I remember?
15:08:42 <fizzie> "pacmd exit" is the official way of terminating the "current" pulseaudio session.
15:08:52 <fizzie> Though killall does in practice do just fine.
15:33:37 <j-invariant> Haskell comes with a library of functions called the 'standard prelude'. Unfortunately, whoever designed it knew just enough mathematics to be dangerous and made a complete hash of it. Instead of using a well known hierarchy of algebraic structures such as group->ring->field they defined all kinds of bizarre structures starting with something like a ring with a norm or valuation. And while the library supports complex numbers it's not flexible
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15:48:36 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OK, I'm writing it.
15:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, you said that with absolutely no context.
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15:52:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: there was a bunch of context in the message
15:52:30 <ais523> it's clearly about Haskell, for instance
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15:54:06 <ais523> I mean, it's a non sequitur, but it has enough context to understand
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16:03:57 <ais523> hmm, I came up against this regex: ((R1|R1R2G2D2|R2R1G2D2|R2G2R1D2)((R2G1|G1R2)D1(R1G2|G2R1)D2)*G1D1|(R2|R2R1G1D1|R1R2G1D1|R1G1R2D1)((R1G2|G2R1)D2(R2G1|G1R2)D1)*G2D2)*
16:04:02 <ais523> what I'm wondering is, can it be simplified?
16:04:28 <ais523> (perhaps specifying the semantics of programming languages and circuits via regex isn't the best option)
16:05:44 <Sgeo> Perhaps regex is never the best option
16:06:04 * Sgeo goes off to hide some sox, of the p sort, into a closet
16:06:08 <ais523> it works really well in most cases
16:06:20 <ais523> for programming language semantics, I mean
16:06:31 <ais523> that one's messy because it's designed for synchronizing threads
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16:10:24 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You're going to hate it with hatred :P
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16:20:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly SuperTuring's sidekick should be a Turing machine called Timmy.
16:21:26 <oerjan> a hyperintelligent machine which is so geeky that it _still_ keeps managing to fail the turing test, and so cannot get full human rights.
16:22:17 <oerjan> it's great dream in life is of course to pass
16:22:54 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Nah, you'll love it.
16:22:56 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: With hatred.
16:23:51 <Gregor> What instruments are wussy?
16:25:00 <Phantom_Hoover> All the ones with at least one dimension greater than a metre.
16:26:18 <oerjan> it has considered cheating by simulating a whole normal human being, but considers that too unethical toward the simulated human
16:28:37 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, it has a trumpet.
16:31:37 <oerjan> <ais523> (actually, that one might, it uses == hello! == heading syntax)
16:31:55 <oerjan> it _might_ just be filling in the new section field for the + button
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16:35:46 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I have a friend that plays the trumpet, but this is going to be a computer-played piece :P
16:36:29 <fizzie> Gregor: You mean with some sort of robot arms and a fan-driven contraption?
16:37:19 * oerjan decides fizzie and Gregor are clearly describing the villain
16:39:15 <oerjan> his name is Cyberius Emmanuel Victor Imperator II
16:40:52 <oerjan> ironically, while being more than 2/3 mechanical, he is fanatically against mechanical _brains_
16:41:19 <oerjan> and thus wants to eradicate timmy and by extension superturing.
16:41:36 <oerjan> in between conquering the world, of course
16:42:36 <oerjan> of course it doesn't help that they keep thwarting 90% of his plans, including all the really major ones </obvious>
16:43:50 <oerjan> (btw. C.E.V.I. I met an unfortunate demise after trying to deny no. II staying up late to watch tv)
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16:44:57 <oerjan> oh wait the acronym needs some rearrangement
16:45:13 <oerjan> clearly his name must be Victor Imperator Cyberius Emmanuel
16:47:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: quite possible, he could be responsible for V.I.C.E.'s american operations
16:47:25 * oerjan realizes he cannot possibly have seen a picture of esr before
16:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/6692-lt_a_href_http_en_wikipedia_org_wiki_eric_s__raymond_gt_eric_s_raymond_lt_a_gt.jpg
16:48:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i said that of course because i _was_ for the first time looking at a picture of him
16:48:44 <oerjan> and it's clearly a face i would have remembered
16:49:10 <Gregor> Hahah this is AWESOME. I am the GREETIST.
16:50:02 <oerjan> hm that picture you linked reminds me of a certain swedish actor which i cannot remember the name of
16:53:38 <Gregor> I'm tempted to make an .ogg of what I've got, but I want to finish it so you can hear it in its FULL SPLENDOR.
16:57:23 <Gregor> Oh, you will be floored.
16:57:50 <oerjan> well up to rounding error, yes
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17:43:12 <Gregor> URGE TO POST PREVIEW RISING
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17:45:25 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Depends on your definition of "seriously"? X-P
17:46:58 <elliott> 04:03:38 <coppro> also there is too much elliott in this conversation
17:47:11 <elliott> I don't give a fuck if you ignore me, but seriously, shut the fuck up.
17:47:43 <elliott> If you ignore people some conversations don't make sense.
17:52:01 <elliott> zzo38 seems to think that anyone can push to his repository.
17:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, is it Gödel? Is it Church? No, it's SuperTuring!
17:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, he goes around doing the standard supermathematician/computer scientist stuff.
17:53:33 <Gregor> And you will LOVE this theme tune.
17:54:03 <j-invariant> elliott: I've managed to build a cave/mine so confusing that I get lost in it
17:54:50 <elliott> j-invariant: make a troch system
17:55:25 <elliott> j-invariant: e.g. three torches in a row = to exit
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17:58:20 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/superturing.ogg <-- WORK IN PROGRESS
17:58:24 <elliott> 10:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god, Stargate was created by Roland Emmerich.
17:58:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The Stargate film was shit on toast.
17:59:18 <Gregor> (And listen to the WHOLE THING before commenting :P )
17:59:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "It's "O'Neill," with two L's. There's another Colonel O'Neil with only one L, and he has no sense of humor at all." (O'Neill had only one L in the film.)
17:59:50 <elliott> Gregor: needs more cowbell right at the start
18:00:07 <elliott> also it's insufficiently gay, overlay it with livin' la vida loca
18:00:42 <Gregor> Dude, SuperTuring transcends genres.
18:01:00 <elliott> It's just not gay enough, even though I love it.
18:01:05 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, this needs to be performed live.
18:01:36 <elliott> 12:22:10 <oerjan> elliott: i think you might want after the date too
18:01:37 <elliott> 12:22:48 <oerjan> also it's still proportional front here
18:01:45 <elliott> oerjan: I haven't rewritten it yet, need to figure out how to do encodings in Haskell :P
18:01:58 <elliott> oerjan: I'm considering keeping the proportional font, dunno, comments welcome apart from from oklopol or Vorpal
18:02:12 <elliott> 13:40:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Why does the Onion even have articles.
18:02:12 <elliott> 13:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The headlines are the funniest parts
18:02:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They start with the headlines
18:02:18 <elliott> which explains everything.
18:02:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There's that one section which is just headlines and pictures :P
18:02:47 <elliott> 14:14:27 <ais523> hmm: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Works_in_progress/&oldid=20846
18:02:47 <elliott> 14:14:42 <ais523> spambot title, and spambot-reminiscent text, except it all makes perfect sense and there's no actual spam
18:02:47 <elliott> 14:15:19 <ais523> it's clearly bot-generated, but I was wondering if I should leave it as a testament to the day when spambots got so good at trying to look legitimate that they forgot to spam
18:02:49 <elliott> ais523: what was the text?
18:02:59 <ais523> I posted it a little later
18:03:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: I'm considering keeping the proportional font, dunno, comments welcome apart from from oklopol or Vorpal <-- hey why not from me and oklopol?
18:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I have a nagging feeling that we'll need to have a really long opening sequence to get the whole theme in.
18:03:24 <elliott> Vorpal: because you and oklopol are both fixed font nazis
18:03:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is no issue.
18:03:34 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I still have two styles I need to get in :P
18:03:39 <elliott> Just have SuperTuring standing there, looking awkwardly gay.
18:03:57 <quintopia> gregor: it would be excellent video game music...let me know when you use a non-suck sample pack
18:04:03 <Gregor> elliott: Except for the fluttering pink cape.
18:04:08 <quintopia> whatever people call them these dayws
18:04:13 <Gregor> quintopia: Let me know when you give me a non-sucky soundfont X-P
18:04:53 * oerjan dons a hitler moustache
18:04:55 <quintopia> the stereo effects are awful nice tho
18:05:07 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: because you and oklopol are both fixed font nazis <-- MAKE THAT THREE
18:05:22 <elliott> oerjan: I WILL CONVERT YOU THROUGH MY ACCIDENT
18:05:32 <Gregor> oerjan: elliott and oklopol are both three?
18:05:34 <elliott> it's just that i have no nice monospaced fonts :(
18:06:28 <oerjan> argh you and your damn font fixation
18:07:00 <elliott> 16:30:10 <oerjan> a hyperintelligent machine which is so geeky that it _still_ keeps managing to fail the turing test, and so cannot get full human rights.
18:07:03 <elliott> It should have a halting oracle.
18:07:23 <elliott> This should be invoked regularly to prove or disprove famous mathematical theorems.
18:07:32 <elliott> "Oh no! I can defeat this wicked trap only if Goldbach's conjecture is false!"
18:07:40 <elliott> "GOOD - NEWS - SUPER - TURING... IT IS!"
18:07:48 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: YES YES YES
18:08:31 <quintopia> "I want some banananananananananana pancakes"
18:08:47 <quintopia> and SuperTuring says "Does the hardware store accept returns on fenceposts?"
18:08:56 <Gregor> "Will this machine halt?" "This machine definitely w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-"
18:09:07 <elliott> Why would she be a villain
18:09:25 <elliott> So what's SuperTuring's overly phallic weapon of choice?
18:10:06 <elliott> Does he keep it rolled up?
18:10:16 <elliott> In his pockets, naturally.
18:11:07 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I have a nagging feeling that we'll need to have a really long opening sequence to get the whole theme in. <-- what theme?
18:11:10 <elliott> WE STARTED OFF WITH "OVERLY PHALLIC" I DON'T THINK WE CAN GET LESS MATURE
18:11:22 <elliott> Is that an infinitely long tape in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?
18:11:24 <Gregor> Vorpal: <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/superturing.ogg <-- WORK IN PROGRESS
18:11:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, "Resolving codu.org... "
18:12:05 <elliott> <Vorpal> Gregor: I HATE it! It's NOT MY STYLE
18:12:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is Timmy the TM?
18:12:29 <elliott> I don't think we should have a TM, that's not super-Turing
18:12:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, wow awesome music
18:12:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at predicting me :P
18:12:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When he got turned Super, his prototype Turing machine got turned Super too.
18:13:03 <elliott> So obviously Timmy has a halting oracle.
18:13:06 <elliott> THUS INVALIDATING YOUR PLOT
18:13:24 <quintopia> i do agree with the complaints that it is not a gay enough theme
18:13:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, a bit cheesy though maybe?
18:13:35 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's the point :P
18:13:51 <oerjan> ok ok timmy can have a halting oracle
18:13:57 <quintopia> i think the villain should be MEGALONZO
18:14:13 <elliott> oerjan: the stutter thing is a good idea though
18:14:44 <elliott> "TIMMY, IS THE GOLDBACH CONJECTURE TRUE OR NOT?!" "THE PROGRAM IN QUESTION D-D-D-D-D-D-" "HURRY UP!" "DOES HALT!"
18:15:00 <elliott> hmm, so SuperTuring is devoutly religious then
18:15:06 <elliott> because MegaLonzo is obviously for the separation of Church and State
18:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> HE SHOULD BE ALONZO CHURCH III, THE SECRET LOVE CHILD OF ALONZO CHURCH II AND HASKELL CURRY'S DAUGHTER
18:15:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, ... such a bad joke
18:15:57 <elliott> Oh yeah, this is the centre of GOOD JOKE DEVELOPMENTS.
18:16:02 <ais523> elliott: assuming you're still logreading, did you come across my regex yet?
18:16:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay. Still bad
18:16:05 <ais523> (well, regular expression)
18:16:11 <quintopia> i think elliott wins the computing pun award already.
18:16:24 <elliott> I didn't make up that Church and State thing, that's a Haskeller joke
18:16:42 <ais523> elliott: typical computer scientist thinking: regular expressions can be represented by FSMs, thus FSMs can be represented by regular expressions
18:16:51 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: google googleit do
18:16:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: google googleit do
18:17:04 <Vorpal> ais523, well that is true
18:17:07 <lambdabot> http://www.springerlink.com/index/N4T2V573M58G2755.pdf
18:17:07 <lambdabot> Title: SpringerLink - International Journal of Parallel Programming, Volume 15, Number ...
18:17:10 <Vorpal> ais523, given the right sort of regex
18:17:23 <elliott> HOW DO YOU DO CHARSETS WITH HASKELL ASKJXGCYKLDFJHCNVKFJGNKGDXLF;SJ,NMBGHJDSUIDAOK;LCMVNBSJKGHRIJE89MU84OEITJRDGKLFMCVGDTRIO54896UFGJKNJKGTUIIGJKFN
18:17:25 <ais523> Vorpal: simple regular expressions work
18:17:32 <ais523> well, not "simple" in my case
18:17:41 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but perl regexp would nopt
18:17:59 <Vorpal> they are more advanced than fsm
18:18:04 <elliott> "Summary: Hoogle Embed lets you include a small interactive Hoogle search box on your web page." <-- so USEFUL
18:18:15 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm talking about the mathematical concept
18:18:16 <elliott> Oh: "Configuration options allow you to automatically add a prefix or suffix to the users search, for example adding +hoogle to search only the Hoogle API." :P
18:18:27 <elliott> Vorpal: stop acting like AnMaste
18:18:29 <j-invariant> elliott: I have like 64x20 cobbleston, and athe same of dirt... I worry about conservation of mass
18:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, .................
18:19:07 <ais523> in fact, I had to translate that one into Perl so the notation was more familiar
18:19:19 <Vorpal> ais523, so what is this monster regexp that was in logs then
18:19:25 <ais523> the original uses + for alternation and superscript * for repetition
18:20:28 <ais523> ((R1|R1R2G2D2|R2R1G2D2|R2G2R1D2)((R2G1|G1R2)D1(R1G2|G2R1)D2)*G1D1|(R2|R2R1G1D1|R1R2G1D1|R1G1R2D1)((R1G2|G2R1)D2(R2G1|G1R2)D1)*G2D2)*
18:20:36 <ais523> I have a hunch that it can be simplified, though
18:20:55 <Vorpal> ais523, actually, don't you need an fsm with an accepting state to be able to encode it as a regexp. Consider a fsm for a door controller for example. It will have no accepting state since it will run forever
18:21:02 <ais523> (it represents the concept of a critical section)
18:21:16 <ais523> Vorpal: the regex matches all possible histories for the FSM
18:21:21 <ais523> well, after you prefix-close it
18:21:24 <elliott> ugh, this makes no damn sense
18:21:40 <elliott> Vorpal: charsets in haskell
18:21:45 <quintopia> multiple channel convergence ahoy...sam hughes appeared here and the "troll science: pi" thing appeared as a topic of discussion elsewhere...
18:22:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, what "troll science: pi"?
18:22:21 <elliott> quintopia: sam hughes is already on topic here
18:22:36 <oerjan> ais523: there are some parts that can be distributed further
18:22:56 <ais523> oerjan: I think there are, yes; but I was wondering if the two halves could be combined somehow
18:23:05 <elliott> http://twitter.com/qntm I DID NOT KNOW THIS EXISTED
18:23:28 <ais523> that regex is "psychic" in a way, in that it can go arbitrarily deep into the string before having to backtrack and using the second half of the main alternation
18:23:33 <elliott> "Did you know? If you run ASCII text through an ASCII->EBCDIC converter 484,330 times, it'll come back as ASCII again."
18:23:42 <Vorpal> <quintopia> Vorpal: http://qntm.org/trollpi <-- heh.
18:23:49 <ais523> elliott: only if the converter is reversible
18:24:01 <elliott> ais523: ASCII->EBCDIC is reversible
18:24:29 <ais523> elliott: some of the weirder punctuation marks in ASCII don't have standard locations in EBCDIC
18:24:41 <elliott> ais523: stop being AnMaster
18:25:05 <ais523> why is this being AnMaster/Vorpal? it matters because INTERCAL
18:25:24 <Vorpal> ais523, what about baudot?
18:26:11 <ais523> Vorpal: that one definitely doesn't round-trip to ASCII or EBCDIC
18:26:20 <ais523> it has no tab character
18:26:32 <ais523> (convickt replaces tab with space when doing that conversion, so as not to break existing programs)
18:26:43 <ais523> one space, that is; all whitespace is equivalent in INTERCAL
18:26:55 <elliott> ais523: all whitespace in intercal is the same as no whitespace, isn't it?
18:27:27 <ais523> elliott: it's debatable; sorear made a plausible claim that whitespace is allowed even inside constants (and the vim syntax highlighter for INTERCAL's based on that principle), but no known impl allows it
18:27:57 <ais523> and certainly, J-INTERCAL used to get confused by DOREADOUT, parsing it as DO REA DO UT
18:28:00 <ais523> which is again arguably correct
18:28:20 <ais523> so we'll just say that whitespace is possibly significant, and leave it at that
18:28:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, can I fix C-INTERCAL to allow whitespace in contents?
18:28:46 <ais523> elliott: if you can think of a plausible way to do it and it doesn't break anything else, why not?
18:29:03 <ais523> (note that E000 preserves whitespace, so just stripping all the whitespace in advance doesn't work)
18:29:14 <elliott> ais523: I'll just tweak the grammar
18:29:17 <elliott> ais523: will you apply the patch if I write it?
18:29:25 <ais523> depends on how well-written it is
18:29:38 <ais523> I've been known to rewrite patches altogether but steal the algorithms
18:29:45 <elliott> ais523: So it can be either really well-written or utterly horrid? :)
18:29:54 <elliott> Got a link to the repository?
18:29:56 <ais523> it's probably just worth mentioning that C-INTERCAL's parser is rather fragile
18:30:09 <Vorpal> ais523, that is an understatement
18:30:14 <ais523> checking browser history now
18:30:20 <ais523> Vorpal: no it isn't, it's not /that/ fragile
18:30:31 <ais523> elliott: http://git.gitorious.org/intercal/intercal.git
18:30:40 <elliott> "The Social Network is the most accurate computer movie since Swordfish." --Sam Hughes
18:31:00 <Vorpal> ais523, no longer darcs?
18:31:01 <ais523> elliott: gitorious for me is slow but up
18:31:13 <ais523> Vorpal: that's the big combined everything repo made by esr
18:31:16 <elliott> ais523: have you got a local repository you could send to me? it just isn't loading for me
18:31:18 <Vorpal> ais523, "The requested URL /intercal/intercal.git was not found on this server."
18:31:28 <elliott> ais523: darcs is fine, even preferable, if you still use that locally :P
18:31:37 <ais523> what about git://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal.git
18:31:45 <ais523> and no, I'm using the combined repo atm
18:31:51 <elliott> "My latest hypothesis: every James Cameron movie is set in the same fictional universe." --Sam Hughes
18:32:11 <elliott> ais523: why not "c-intercal"? esr ego?
18:32:24 <ais523> although it's been called "intercal" in Debian, etc
18:32:32 <ais523> so that might be another reason, consistency with package managers
18:33:00 <elliott> What, Darren Aronofsky is directing Wolverine 2.
18:33:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I used ick and c-intercal iirc for package names
18:33:35 <ais523> I used C-INTERCAL as the main index entry in info, and ick for the subentry that specifically dealt with ick(1) the executable
18:34:20 <ais523> (note to self: consider ick(6) and ick(8) as possible alternative locations)
18:34:48 <elliott> and now, I delve into the C-INTERCAL lexer, knowing not what I am doing
18:34:56 <ais523> elliott: don't worry, it doesn't either
18:34:56 <elliott> ais523: ick(8)? it goes in sbin? :P
18:35:07 <ais523> elliott: that would be a fun place for it, yes
18:35:18 <elliott> I'm going to assume that I can do this in lexer.l and avoid the parser entirely
18:35:19 <ais523> in case, umm, you need to recompile a kernel module written in INTERCAL
18:35:33 <elliott> does my name go in the copyright line or no? I'll stick to your /* AIS: ... */ format I think
18:35:48 <Vorpal> ais523, but gcc goes into bin not sbin...
18:35:53 <ais523> I gave up the /* AIS: */ thing when I used version control, as that was an alternative way to log things
18:36:04 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to do it anyway, as I like the look of it
18:36:13 <elliott> ais523: hmm, but I don't have a middle name, what do I do?
18:36:28 <Vorpal> ais523, what does the i stand for btw
18:36:33 <ais523> you could use x, that's what the university here does
18:36:39 <ais523> in order to give everyone three-letter initials
18:36:47 <elliott> ais523: /* EXH: ... */? that's ugly
18:36:52 <elliott> maybe I'll invent a middle initial
18:36:52 <ais523> (as for /why/ they give everyone three-letter initials, beats me)
18:37:12 <elliott> hmm, I wish I was named Elliott Fsomething
18:37:22 <ais523> elliott: who cares about consistency?
18:37:25 <Vorpal> ais523, what does your I stand for
18:37:36 <ais523> Vorpal: that's quite a personal question...
18:37:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Ia, as in Ia ftaghn.
18:37:44 <Vorpal> ais523, oh okay. Sorry then
18:38:15 <elliott> ais523: wow, where on earth are constants parsed here :-D
18:38:33 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I think I should do this in the parser, or does the lexer already muck it up?
18:38:44 <ais523> the two are designed to work together
18:38:47 <elliott> I'm assuming the lexer just makes it "SOMETHING DIGIT DIGIT SPACE DIGIT"
18:38:53 <ais523> although I think that's only necessary in the spark-ears matching
18:38:54 <elliott> in which case the solution is easier to do in the parser
18:39:05 <ais523> the lexer does group adjacent digits, though, look at the {D} rule
18:39:22 <ais523> (is there support in the spec for spaces inside numbers?)
18:39:23 <elliott> ais523: I don't understand
18:39:30 <elliott> hmm, why the {}s around D?
18:39:36 <elliott> to reference that definition?
18:39:44 <ais523> no, because otherwise it would be a literal D
18:39:48 <elliott> {D} {yylval.numval = myatoi(yytext); return(NUMBER);}
18:39:53 <ais523> it's defined as D, but used as {D}
18:39:55 <elliott> ais523: that looks to me like it should already support that
18:40:02 <ais523> yes, that looks like it contains whitespace
18:40:03 <elliott> depending on how myatoi works
18:40:07 <ais523> hmm, what does myatoi do anyway?
18:40:13 <ais523> it seems a little weird to use a custom atoi
18:40:22 <elliott> for(buf[i = 0] = '\0';*text && i < MAXTEXT;text++) {
18:40:32 <elliott> "thinbuf code added by an AIS" wut
18:40:46 <ais523> well, there might be more than one person with my initials
18:40:50 <elliott> CONFICE{W}\({W}{D}\) {yylval.numval = myatoi(yytext); return(CREATE);}
18:40:56 <elliott> COME{W}FROM{W}\({W}{D}\) {/* AIS */ yylval.numval = myatoi(yytext);
18:41:03 <elliott> ais523: as far as I can tell, spaces are already supported in numbers
18:41:04 <ais523> and thinbuf was just a bugfix for Unicode support
18:41:12 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: hmm, but I don't have a middle name, what do I do? <-- eh, i don't know
18:41:15 <elliott> \%{W}{D} {yylval.numval = myatoi(yytext);
18:41:15 <elliott> if (yylval.numval && yylval.numval < 100)
18:41:15 <elliott> ick_lose(IE017, iyylineno, (char *)NULL);}
18:41:24 <elliott> ais523: what's the prefix of constants?
18:41:36 <ais523> wait, what does CONFICE even mean?
18:41:46 <ais523> oh, must be CREATE in Latin
18:42:08 <elliott> ok, so a constant is done with "MESH(value), NUMBER"?
18:42:13 <elliott> {D} {yylval.numval = myatoi(yytext); return(NUMBER);}
18:42:21 <ais523> elliott: yep, in C-INTERCAL at least
18:42:29 <ais523> I think CLC-INTERCAL can dynamically determine whether something's a constant or not
18:42:32 <elliott> ais523: then since the {D} rule supports spaces, spaces in constants already worked, try it
18:42:39 <ais523> elliott: constants was a typo...
18:42:47 <elliott> ais523: what did you mean :D
18:43:12 <elliott> ais523: so I'd have to change it to C{W}O{W}N{W}F{W}I{W}C{W}E?
18:43:42 <elliott> ais523: hmm... perhaps I could write a program to automatically transform lexer.l so that every literal stream of characters gets separated by {W}
18:43:46 <ais523> I think so, and so forth with all keywords
18:43:50 <ais523> I'm just not certain that actually works
18:44:04 <elliott> ais523: why can't I just strip whitespace again? error reporting?
18:44:05 <Vorpal> elliott, there will be ambiguities
18:44:19 <ais523> and the fact that it possibly changes the semantics of something
18:44:22 <oerjan> `translatefromto la en confice
18:44:23 <elliott> ais523: can't I just make the impl look at the source in a different place when error-reporting?
18:44:40 <elliott> ais523: is it OK if the build depends on perl, so long as the pregenerated file is included?
18:44:41 <ais523> C-INTERCAL screws up the line numbers atm when you start a statement halfway through a line and end it halfway through a different line
18:44:47 <ais523> it's a nonstanding bug that nobody cares about
18:44:54 <oerjan> `translatefromto la en sic transit gloria mundi
18:44:59 <ais523> elliott: hmm, does it not depend on perl already?
18:45:08 <ais523> although the typo si fun
18:45:08 <elliott> * The spectacular ugliness of INTERCAL syntax requires that the lexical
18:45:08 <elliott> * analyzer have two levels. One, embedded in the getc() function, handles
18:45:08 <elliott> * logical-line continuation and the ! abbrev, and stashes each logical
18:45:08 <elliott> * line away in a buffer accessible to the code generator (this is necessary
18:45:08 <elliott> * for the * construct to be interpreted correctly). The upper level is
18:45:10 <elliott> * generated by lex(1) and does normal tokenizing.
18:45:14 <elliott> ais523: what if getc skipped whitespace?
18:45:23 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en Hva er nå dette?
18:45:24 <ais523> oh right, I forgot that the crazy function that did most of the parsing was called getc
18:45:29 <ais523> that was almost cetainly a bad idea
18:45:48 <oerjan> `translatefromto en la Is this right?
18:45:57 <ais523> and lead to fun when the function it actually called to do the reading was implemented in terms of getc
18:46:07 <elliott> ais523: but could I make getc skip whitespace or would that mess up error reporting too?
18:46:11 <ais523> I think I replaced it with a call to read in the end, to reduce the chances of it going via getc to near zero
18:46:18 <ais523> really, would you expect me to be?
18:46:48 <ais523> try doing it at the same stage as expanding ! to .', though, as it has a similar issue
18:48:02 <elliott> do dummy = fread(&c_char,1,1,fp);
18:48:02 <elliott> while (isspace(c_char)); /* EH: ignore whitespace */
18:48:09 <elliott> I just did it at getc, let's see if it works
18:48:16 <lambdabot> search provides: google gsite gwiki
18:48:20 <elliott> ais523: is there an automated test suite of any kind?
18:48:22 <ais523> elliott: that's a really evil do-while
18:48:28 <ais523> elliott: indeed, two of them
18:48:37 <elliott> OK, how do I run them? and can I run them without make installing?
18:48:42 <oerjan> `translatefromto en lat Is this right?
18:48:56 <ais523> there's ESR's compile-all-known-programs testsuite (I integrated it into the build system, run "make check"), and my separate fuzztester (which I think is "make fuzz")
18:49:06 <elliott> ais523: I'll do make check, then
18:49:12 <elliott> make fuzz sounds irrelevant to this
18:49:31 <ais523> well, it's fuzztesting with vaguely valid INTERCAL to test the optimiser
18:49:32 <elliott> configure.ac:10: required file `buildaux/install-sh' not found
18:49:32 <elliott> configure.ac:10: `automake --add-missing' can install `install-sh'
18:49:32 <elliott> configure.ac:10: required file `buildaux/missing' not found
18:49:32 <elliott> configure.ac:10: `automake --add-missing' can install `missing'
18:49:32 <elliott> buildaux/Makefile.am: required file `buildaux/depcomp' not found
18:49:33 <elliott> buildaux/Makefile.am: `automake --add-missing' can install `depcomp'
18:49:39 <elliott> how tf am i meant to create "configure"
18:49:41 <elliott> autoreconf fails like that
18:49:45 <ais523> elliott: there's a script to do it in buildaux
18:49:50 <ais523> the repo versions don't contain any generated files at all
18:50:04 <elliott> ais523: there's a standard name for that script but I forget what it is
18:50:19 <ais523> buildaux/regenerate-build-system.sh
18:50:21 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/Code/c-intercal$ buildaux/regenerate-build-system.sh
18:50:21 <elliott> Please run this script from its own directory.
18:50:23 <ais523> and it isn't autogen.sh as that does something else
18:50:32 <j-invariant> elliott: 18:58 < kuffaar> Stop saying evil all the time, you lot start sounding like Christian fundies on the telly!
18:50:44 <ais523> because I wrote it in a hurry, and it's maintainer-only really
18:50:51 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to fix that too :P
18:51:51 <elliott> ais523: fixed, and it even works with directories with spaces in the names and shells without $()!
18:52:03 <elliott> if that comes in as one patch, I blame git being incompetent at cherrypicking ..
18:52:52 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to try generating the parser with byacc, just because I'm perverse
18:53:06 <elliott> ais523: also, "make clean" starts configuring if you run it before configuring...
18:53:14 <ais523> elliott: last I tried, the parser worked on SunOS yacc with a few changes
18:53:20 <ais523> elliott: of course, how else would it know what to clean?
18:53:25 <elliott> are parallel builds supported?
18:54:05 <ais523> as far as I know, they even work
18:54:09 <ais523> which is not quite the same thing
18:54:19 <elliott> /home/elliott/Code/c-intercal/buildaux/missing: line 52: makeinfo: command not found
18:54:19 <elliott> WARNING: `makeinfo' is missing on your system. You should only need it if
18:54:19 <elliott> you modified a `.texi' or `.texinfo' file, or any other file
18:54:19 <elliott> indirectly affecting the aspect of the manual. The spurious
18:54:19 <elliott> call might also be the consequence of using a buggy `make' (AIX,
18:54:20 <elliott> DU, IRIX). You might want to install the `Texinfo' package or
18:54:24 <elliott> the `GNU make' package. Grab either from any GNU archive site.
18:54:26 <elliott> make[1]: *** [doc/ick.info] Error 1
18:54:28 <elliott> I did not edit any manual page.
18:54:52 <elliott> ais523: is that because the generated pages aren't included?
18:55:03 <ais523> elliott: yes, the repo version and tarball version are quite different
18:55:15 <elliott> parser.c:96: error: macro "yylex" passed 1 arguments, but takes just 0
18:55:17 <ais523> the repo version contains no generated files at all because git can't handle that
18:55:21 <elliott> ais523: your parser does not work with byacc, I am disgusted
18:55:33 <ais523> elliott: at what stage did you set byacc as the parser?
18:55:36 <coppro> it can either store or ignore them
18:55:40 <ais523> coppro: not without producing diffs
18:55:42 <elliott> ais523: by installing byacc without having bison installed
18:55:44 <ais523> and those drive ESR mad
18:55:50 <elliott> ais523: first it complained i had no parser, then i installed byacc, then configure worked
18:55:57 <elliott> so I'm going out on a limb here and guessing it decided byacc was good enough
18:56:07 <ais523> elliott: hmm, autoconf is meant to detect properties of yacc impls
18:56:15 <ais523> but perhaps you hit upon a difference I didn't know about
18:56:20 <elliott> ais523: I suspect you're doing something "manually"
18:56:22 <ais523> still, a change in the signature of yylex is bizarre
18:56:35 <ais523> elliott: I wrote the yacc detection manually
18:56:40 <ais523> but that was about yyrestart, I think
18:56:45 <elliott> /* Parameters sent to lex. */
18:56:45 <elliott> # define YYLEX_DECL() yylex(void *YYLEX_PARAM)
18:56:45 <elliott> # define YYLEX yylex(YYLEX_PARAM)
18:56:46 <elliott> # define YYLEX_DECL() yylex(void)
18:56:46 <ais523> which is a) undocumented, and b) required to get things to work
18:56:53 <elliott> extern int YYPARSE_DECL();
18:56:56 <elliott> ais523: the last line is the failing one
18:57:08 <ais523> looks like YYLEX_PARAM is misset
18:57:11 <Gregor> Bleh, ending music is hard.
18:57:14 <elliott> ais523: I get the same even with bison.
18:57:19 <elliott> I conclude that your parser is totally broke.
18:57:48 <elliott> ais523: i suspect esr broke it
18:58:09 <elliott> ais523: do I need "distclean" to remove generated files?
18:58:21 <ais523> elliott: there's an even cleaner than that, IIRC
18:58:25 <elliott> test -z "parser.c parser.h lexer.c oil-oil.c host.mak bconfig.h config.status.build" || rm -f parser.c parser.h lexer.c oil-oil.c host.mak bconfig.h config.status.build
18:58:36 <elliott> automake is so ridiculous...
18:58:40 <ais523> elliott: to avoid an error if it calls rm with no params, of course
18:58:51 <ais523> or worse, deletes -f by mistake becaues the rm is particularly stupid
18:58:55 <ais523> you might have needed that file!
18:59:07 <elliott> ais523: running make check now
18:59:10 <elliott> how long will this take? :p
18:59:18 <ais523> not too long, it only takes me a few minutes
18:59:21 <elliott> it's currently bottling beer... or hung
18:59:21 <ais523> some tests take longer than others
18:59:28 <elliott> make[2]: Entering directory `/home/elliott/Code/c-intercal'
18:59:33 <elliott> does it ignore the output?
18:59:45 <ais523> -F is a rather slow optimisation option
18:59:51 <ais523> and no, it compares the output
19:00:03 <elliott> ais523: I mean, doesn't send it to the screen
19:00:15 <ais523> no, it doesn't send it to the screen
19:00:23 <ais523> just runs diff and sends its output to the screen, which is normally blank
19:01:08 <elliott> ais523: incidentally, if my getc patch works, all the {W}s can be removed
19:01:13 <elliott> because all whitespace is simply dropped entirely
19:01:20 <elliott> ais523: OTOH, this _might_ break error reporting ...
19:01:24 <elliott> ais523: but I don't know where it gets the source from
19:01:34 <elliott> does it really use the output of the lexer's getc()?
19:01:37 <ais523> or a variable that's called something like that
19:01:48 <elliott> does getc maintain textlines?
19:01:50 <ais523> I think getc might be responsible for populating it
19:01:54 <elliott> if so, I could put all whitespace in textlines
19:03:19 <ais523> bear in mind that ick's getc != C's getc
19:07:38 <ais523> elliott: is there something wrong with the byacc detection / code using it, btw?
19:07:46 <ais523> as in, does the configure need a fix to work with byacc?
19:08:05 <elliott> ais523: I have no idea -- I suspect that that ifdef I quoted was the wrong way around
19:08:08 <elliott> i.e., YYLEX_PARAM is being set wrongly
19:08:57 <Gregor> (Maybe, need a quick check)
19:19:47 <elliott> ais523: beer.i still hasn't finished, I'm worried
19:21:11 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: beer.i still hasn't finished, I'm worried <-- you know in a different context that _could_ be worrisome.
19:21:26 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/superturing.ogg MY MASTERPIECE
19:21:28 <ais523> elliott: quite possibly, it should be faster than that
19:23:20 <elliott> ais523: can I run the test suite without beer.i somehow?
19:23:28 <elliott> ais523: or make ick print debug output?
19:23:53 <ais523> elliott: ick has a whole bunch of debug options, and there's some way to get the testsuite to use them but I can't remember what they are offhand
19:24:04 <ais523> try compiling beer.i by hand
19:24:24 <elliott> what's a good debug flag to use for parsing?
19:25:06 <elliott> hmm, Makefile ignores ICK and passes its own to pit/Makefile
19:25:17 <ais523> yep, you have to use pit/Makefile directly
19:25:24 <elliott> ais523: I have a feeling pit/Makefile is eating up the debug output
19:25:26 <ais523> (because ICK has the wrong value in Makefile)
19:25:32 <ais523> manually's likely best
19:26:38 <elliott> j-invariant: "We can’t expect to construct a reasonable Search Integer. We could encode in the bits of an Integer the execution trace of a Turing machine, as in the proof of the undecidability of the Post correspondence problem. We could write a total function validTrace :: Integer -> Bool that returns True if and only if the given integer represents a valid trace that ends in a halting state. And we could also write a function initialState ::
19:26:38 <elliott> Integer -> MachineState that extracts the first state of the machine. Then the function \machine -> searchInteger (\x -> initialState x == machine && validTrace x) would solve the halting problem."
19:27:10 <elliott> ais523: I have a feeling -d prints things too late
19:27:32 <ais523> elliott: I think what's happening is that you go into an infinite loop before it prints anything
19:29:20 <oerjan> as long as it's not what she said
19:29:27 <Gregor> NOBODY'S COMMENTING ON HOW AWESOME MY MASTERPIECE IS
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19:30:11 <Gregor> quintopia: Yes ... in that I had no intention of spending any real time on it, so I now decree it "done" :P
19:30:47 <quintopia> it definitely has every element one would expect from a video game theme
19:30:57 <quintopia> crossed with a tristan perich piece
19:32:04 <Gregor> I think the perspective that it sounds video-game-ish is just because it's made from soundfonts *shrugs*
19:32:27 <oerjan> iwc appears to have gone into "dmm is gone so now i can break all the time mode" :(
19:32:41 <quintopia> it would still sound videogamey if played live
19:33:00 <quintopia> but each moment could be a theme unto itself
19:40:31 -!- sshc has joined.
19:43:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:43:54 <elliott> hey oerjan how do I do CHARSETS, in HASKELL
19:45:13 <Gregor> Shouldn't SuperTuring be able to solve the halting problem anyway?
19:45:16 <Gregor> I mean, he is /Super/-Turing
19:45:23 <oerjan> elliott: i've never even tried to, but i recall that ghc changed the entire way text IO does charsets relatively recently
19:45:55 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but in this case I'm reading in as a bytestring and then need to detect the charset and convert it -- best thing is that iconv seems to use a different list of charsets to the charset detector package
19:45:59 <elliott> so I'm not sure htat will work :D
19:46:01 <Gregor> j-invariant: Most awesome superhero evars. elliott can explain better :P
19:46:21 <elliott> j-invariant: When Turing bit that apple, the cyanide didn't kill him... it transformed him... into SUPERTURING!!!!!
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19:48:03 <oerjan> elliott: well if you just try to detect utf-8 and fallback to latin-1 like i think irssi does?
19:48:04 <Gregor> elliott: Here's why SuperTuring should be able to solve the halting problem: "SpiderMan may have spider powers, SuperMan may have super strength, but only SuperTuring can solve the halting problem!"
19:48:14 <elliott> oerjan: That's cheating :P
19:48:27 <elliott> oerjan: iconv /might/ accept the alternate names, I'm not sure.
19:49:20 * quintopia gets to work drawing a cyanide-laced apple for websplat.
19:49:33 <quintopia> it shall transform gregor into super-turing!
19:49:53 <oerjan> elliott: well ask in #haskell
19:50:03 <elliott> i did, it's too high-traffic for me to be noticed :P
19:50:32 <elliott> oerjan: was monochrome always _really_ grumpy?
19:50:44 <elliott> he's always been grumpy but i think he's increased grumpiness levels since #haskell exploded in popularity
19:51:15 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:51:19 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
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19:51:36 <lambdabot> @where <key>, return element associated with key
19:52:02 <oerjan> what's the command to get lambdabot to tell its channels again
19:52:30 <oerjan> assuming that's even up to date
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19:53:26 <elliott> oerjan: I _think_ it's auto-generated
19:53:28 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:53:39 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:54:12 <oerjan> except for the fact that seen is clearly listed
19:55:17 <zzo38> The command list won't load......
19:55:31 <oerjan> zzo38: it was slow for me but loaded
19:57:25 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
19:57:45 <oerjan> aha it's _not_ the same list
19:57:56 <zzo38> Finally it loaded.
19:57:56 <oerjan> (forget is missing in the web list)
19:58:55 <lambdabot> Don't try to take on a new personality; it doesn't work.
19:59:44 <zzo38> Is it possible to make up poll with this program?
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20:00:24 <zzo38> oerjan: I mean with lambdabot program.
20:00:35 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pl spell tell
20:00:42 <lambdabot> Missing argument. Check @help <vote-cmd> for info.
20:00:44 <lambdabot> ["\"blah\"","food","logoVotingMethod","naming","remove@src","threeway"]
20:00:45 <lambdabot> ["\"blah\"","food","logoVotingMethod","naming","remove@src","threeway"]
20:00:48 <lambdabot> poll-add <name> Adds a new poll, with no candidates
20:00:56 <lambdabot> Poll results for remove@src (Closed): no=1, yes=1
20:01:02 <elliott> @poll-result logoVotingMEthod
20:01:02 <lambdabot> Missing argument. Check @help <vote-cmd> for info.
20:01:04 <elliott> @poll-result logoVotingMethod
20:01:05 <lambdabot> Poll results for logoVotingMethod (Open): Schulze=1
20:01:09 <lambdabot> Poll results for threeway (Closed): method3=3, method2=0, method1=1
20:01:10 <lambdabot> vote <poll> <choice> Vote for <choice> in <poll>
20:01:11 <lambdabot> Poll results for "blah" (Open): no=0, yes=0
20:01:13 <lambdabot> Poll results for food (Open): quesadilla=1, meatball-sub=0
20:01:17 <lambdabot> vote <poll> <choice> Vote for <choice> in <poll>
20:01:17 <lambdabot> The "remove@src" poll is closed, sorry !
20:01:25 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:01:28 <lambdabot> The "threeway" poll is closed, sorry !
20:01:29 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:02:29 <j-invariant> it's a sad day when changing a LIBRARAY FUNCTION continues a "new programming language"
20:02:38 <olsner> asking cale about caleskell is hilarious, he doesn't like the name apparently
20:02:42 <elliott> j-invariant: it's a joke...
20:02:52 <elliott> olsner: aw, i must have offended him then
20:03:28 <elliott> olsner: imo map needs to become fmap
20:03:42 <elliott> j-invariant: anyway Caleskell also includes industry-grade symbolic capabilities:
20:03:43 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:03:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
20:03:50 <lambdabot> against inferred type `SimpleRef...
20:03:53 <lambdabot> No instance for (SimpleReflect.FromExpr [SimpleReflect.Expr])
20:03:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (SimpleReflect.FromExpr [SimpleReflect.Expr])
20:04:01 <oerjan> j-invariant: (.) is a very basic function, almost on the border of syntax...
20:04:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (SimpleReflect.FromExpr [SimpleReflect.Expr])
20:04:19 <lambdabot> f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (...
20:04:24 <elliott> j-invariant: industry-grade symbolic capabilities
20:05:24 <zzo38> Please read this: http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/doc/extra_repository.txt
20:06:15 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:06:22 -!- sshc has joined.
20:06:52 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
20:06:56 <lambdabot> f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (f x (...
20:07:32 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
20:07:36 <lambdabot> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (...
20:07:39 <elliott> j-invariant: Industry grade.
20:07:43 <lambdabot> [x,f x,f (f x),f (f (f x)),f (f (f (f x))),f (f (f (f (f x)))),f (f (f (f (...
20:08:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
20:08:30 <zzo38> Can you read the message?
20:08:42 <olsner> practice in priv, feign mastery in channel :)
20:08:57 <elliott> we are the flaws, not Caleskell's industry grade symbolics capabilities
20:09:11 <copumpkin> olsner: that's the story of my life
20:09:17 <elliott> copumpkin: which is an official part of the Caleskell Report.
20:09:18 <zzo38> copumpkin: Why? Is broken? Can you read *this* message?
20:09:39 <elliott> zzo38: what are you saying i can read nothing
20:10:21 <zzo38> copumpkin: Then how can you reply?
20:10:49 <zzo38> elliott: For the first message, I was refering to the extra_repository.txt file, not the message "Can you read the message?" The second question was refering to itself.
20:10:58 <elliott> I cannot read your message.
20:11:01 <oerjan> > scanl f z (repeat (x :: Expr)) :: Expr
20:11:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
20:11:06 <copumpkin> zzo38: we're just fucking with you
20:11:21 <oerjan> > scanl f z (repeat (x :: Expr)) :: [Expr]
20:11:21 <lambdabot> [z,f z x,f (f z x) x,f (f (f z x) x) x,f (f (f (f z x) x) x) x,f (f (f (f (...
20:12:37 <copumpkin> > scanl (const . f) x (repeat x) :: [Expr]
20:12:39 <lambdabot> [x,f x,f (f x),f (f (f x)),f (f (f (f x))),f (f (f (f (f x)))),f (f (f (f (...
20:12:48 <elliott> j-invariant: industry-grade
20:13:12 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
20:13:15 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `EXpr'
20:13:17 <lambdabot> [g,f g,f (f g),f (f (f g)),f (f (f (f g))),f (f (f (f (f g)))),f (f (f (f (...
20:13:21 <elliott> > iterate f (g x) :: [Expr]
20:13:22 <lambdabot> [g x,f (g x),f (f (g x)),f (f (f (g x))),f (f (f (f (g x)))),f (f (f (f (f ...
20:13:30 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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20:14:39 <elliott> > iterate iterate x :: [Expr]
20:14:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `SimpleReflect.Expr'
20:14:53 <elliott> Caleskell 2012 should mandate that all functions can be used symbolically.
20:18:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> Caleskell 2012 should mandate that all functions can be used symbolically. <-- Caleskell?
20:18:48 <elliott> As implemented by lambdabot.
20:18:52 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = [a]
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20:21:10 <oerjan> :t iterate (iterate . concat)
20:21:11 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> [a]'
20:21:11 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(.)', namely `concat'
20:21:26 <oerjan> :t iterate (iterate . (concat .))
20:21:27 <lambdabot> forall a. ([a] -> [[a]]) -> [[a] -> [[a]]]
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20:23:00 <oerjan> > map ($ "hm") $ iterate (iterate . (concat .)) (return .)
20:23:01 <lambdabot> [["h","m"],["hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm","hm...
20:23:54 <oerjan> > map (take 4) . map ($ "hm") $ iterate (iterate . (concat .)) (return .)
20:23:56 <lambdabot> [["h","m"],["hm","hm","hm","hm"],["hm","hmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmhmh...
20:24:21 <oerjan> > map (take 4 . map (take 10)) . map ($ "hm") $ iterate (iterate . (concat .)) (return .)
20:24:23 <lambdabot> [["h","m"],["hm","hm","hm","hm"],["hm","hmhmhmhmhm","hmhmhmhmhm","hmhmhmhmh...
20:24:57 <oerjan> an immensely useful function.
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20:26:39 <elliott> oerjan: i wish you could override the type of (<)
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20:27:11 <oerjan> they're already class methods...
20:27:25 <elliott> oerjan: but you can't override their return type :D
20:27:50 <elliott> oerjan: consider you have some symbolic x
20:27:56 <elliott> it would be nice if (x<50) could be symbolic, too
20:28:15 <elliott> oerjan: in fact this is what stops you doing _too_ complicated symbolic number stuff in haskell
20:28:25 <elliott> but it'd be a pain to make work properly...
20:28:44 <oerjan> well there's always import Prelude ()
20:29:28 <elliott> cabal: cannot configure charsetdetect-1.0. It requires base >=4.2.0.2 && <5
20:29:28 <elliott> For the dependency on base >=4.2.0.2 && <5 there are these packages:
20:29:28 <elliott> base-4.2.0.2 and base-4.3.0.0. However none of them are available.
20:29:28 <elliott> base-4.2.0.2 was excluded because of the top level dependency base -any
20:29:28 <elliott> base-4.3.0.0 was excluded because of the top level dependency base -any
20:30:57 <oerjan> how eerily relevent to recent r/haskell discussion
20:31:05 <elliott> but I only have one base installed!
20:31:25 <elliott> hmm, I wonder what the .2 is
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20:35:21 <oerjan> i would snark something about not battling with my computer except the iwc forum _still_ keeps not loading.
20:36:04 <oerjan> although technically that may not be _my_ computer i'm battling with.
20:37:22 <elliott> oerjan: at this point, windows seems like a great option :)
20:37:40 <elliott> oerjan: Kitten would handle this. sigh.
20:37:49 <elliott> ok i'm downloading and compiling my own fucking haskell platform
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20:41:40 <elliott> oerjan: i'm actually tempted to make a windows partition now and try living the simple life :D
20:42:34 <oerjan> i don't see what's so norwegian about it...
20:43:49 <elliott> oerjan: you all live simple lives in fjörds
20:44:36 <quintopia> what do the following people have in common: BeholdMyGlory, nooga, me, rodgort, Vorpal, Wamanuz, yiyus?
20:44:53 <oerjan> at least the fjord part is fairly accurate for me
20:45:04 <oerjan> actually the simple part too
20:45:39 <elliott> oerjan: can i come visit, and steal your powers
20:46:04 <oerjan> i don't think i have any powers you'd want
20:46:17 <oerjan> and that would be stealable
20:46:25 <quintopia> oerjan: we're the only people you can reliably address in here with two keystrokes. hell, there are 7 nicks starting with m!
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20:47:05 <oerjan> INDEED WHAT ABOUT Phantom_Hoover
20:47:38 * oerjan just test p<tab> and saw it give the correct nick
20:48:01 <quintopia> anyone here know any irssi experts?
20:58:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, my client does in reverse order of speaking when tab complete
20:59:10 <Vorpal> so if pikhq spoke after Phantom_Hoover then it would tab complete to pikhq first
21:01:14 <olsner> how clever of it... I think mine just completes alphabetically
21:02:30 <quintopia> in irssi you have to add an extra script to get that functionality
21:04:53 <oerjan> ...i use irssi and it worked that way from the start, but it's a shared machine so may have some setup.
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21:18:18 <tswett> Oh, the Finnish word for "on top of" is the same as that for "turned on"? How CUTE!
21:19:12 <oerjan> the finns always skip a few steps
21:20:01 <tswett> Huh. Wiktionary says that "kaapin päällä" can mean "on top of the cupboard". "päällä" is also a noun, though, meaning "at the head/end/tip", and "kaapin" just means "of the cupboard".
21:20:20 <elliott> i need you to say something in a freaky windows charset
21:20:23 <elliott> and upload the file somewhere
21:20:37 <tswett> So "kaapin päällä" can be also thought of as "of the cupboard on the tip", aye?
21:21:13 <oerjan> um which freaky windows charset?
21:22:01 <oerjan> REQUEST DENIED DUE TO INSUFFICIENT SPECIFICATION
21:22:10 <elliott> like, windows-1251 or that ISO one
21:22:31 <elliott> oerjan: it's for the benefit of the log formatter :>
21:22:59 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure those are just 8-bit ASCII extensions?
21:24:25 <impomatic> Gregor: can you remember when you invented FYB? Was it July 2005?
21:24:34 <tswett> quintopia: well, it's that of päällä.
21:24:50 <elliott> impomatic: from the esoteric archive
21:24:58 <elliott> if it took a month to get in the archive :P
21:25:04 * oerjan tries saving notepad as "ANSI".
21:25:29 <elliott> oerjan: you _might_ want to try and DCC it here
21:25:34 <elliott> to avoid web servers messing with the encoding header
21:25:54 <oerjan> elliott: er that would require getting it onto NVG first
21:26:08 <oerjan> which might mess up things in itself
21:26:18 <elliott> oerjan: scp shouldn't mess anything up but i guess you might not have that
21:26:25 <elliott> ftp would probably be dodgy too
21:26:34 <elliott> oerjan: can you use uuencode?
21:26:41 <oerjan> putty does have an ftp thing
21:26:49 <elliott> yeah but ftp has a binary mode and a text mode
21:26:54 <elliott> so it might fuck with things
21:27:02 <elliott> i guess if you do BIN first it should be ok
21:27:17 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.bastet.com/uue.zip
21:27:20 <elliott> that's uuencode for windows
21:27:29 <elliott> which you could just put the output of on a pastebin I guess...
21:28:13 <Gregor> quintopia: http://codu.org/music/silly/superturing.ogg THERE I used different brass.
21:28:30 <elliott> I hope you've saved all the revisions of this :P
21:29:15 <quintopia> if only it had realistic ADSR now :P
21:29:50 <elliott> Gregor: Now turn it into a chiptune.
21:29:52 <Gregor> quintopia: MEH MEH MEH MEH
21:29:58 <Gregor> elliott: Turn your MOM into a chiptune.
21:30:10 <elliott> I think there are terrible midi->chiptune converters.
21:30:39 <oerjan> dammit my PsFTP icon is set to use the nvg machine that disappeared and i cannot find where it's set
21:31:48 <oerjan> elliott: um this is not supposed to be "real" ftp. iirc nvg has stopped supporting non-ssl solutions
21:32:03 <oerjan> it's putty's variant that is encrypted
21:34:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it is likely sftp
21:34:26 <oerjan> oh of course it's just a batch file
21:35:47 <oerjan> elliott: http://oerjan.nvg.org/test.txt
21:36:22 <elliott> test.txt: ISO-8859 text, with CRLF line terminators
21:36:27 <elliott> now to get this haskell package working
21:37:09 <elliott> Loading package charsetdetect-1.0 ... linking ... <interactive>: /home/elliott/.cabal/lib/charsetdetect-1.0/ghc-6.12.3/HScharsetdetect-1.0.o: unknown symbol `__dso_handle'
21:39:29 <Vorpal> <Gregor> quintopia: http://codu.org/music/silly/superturing.ogg THERE I used different brass. <-- nice
21:41:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh wait you added organ?
21:41:44 <elliott> oerjan: see on WIndows ... :D
21:42:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: ... there always was an organ :P
21:42:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh I somehow missed it before
21:42:13 <elliott> Gregor: Note that, as a child, organs regularly disembowelled Vorpal.
21:42:17 <elliott> This is why he has a fiery hatred of them.
21:42:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, I hate organs :P
21:42:32 <elliott> oerjan: there's a hackage for that: "clogparse library: Parse IRC logs such as the #haskell logs on tunes.org"
21:42:32 <Gregor> Well, you'll just have to tolerate it :P
21:42:49 <elliott> oerjan: *There's a Hackage for that.(TM)
21:42:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, what instruments are in there
21:43:31 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: there's a hackage for that: "clogparse library: Parse IRC logs such as the #haskell logs on tunes.org" <-- it logs that channel too?
21:43:59 <Gregor> Vorpal: (In nonsense order) Piano, overdriven guitar, trumpet, trombone, harp, timpani, orchestral hit, organ
21:44:09 <elliott> #slate #squeak #croquet #ai
21:44:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Presumably the Croquet Project thing.
21:44:35 <olsner> I'm going to read the hitchhiker's guide in english now!
21:44:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't heard of that, what is it?
21:44:53 <elliott> Which, being Smalltalk + 3D virtual reality, is probably what Sgeo murmurs the name of while asleep.
21:45:08 <olsner> (read it in swedish before I realized how sucky translations into swedish are)
21:45:11 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Edit_Source_Code.jpeg ROTATED CODE THE FUTURE IS NOW
21:45:49 <elliott> The file name (after any directory) is significant. It is used to set the date for timestamps. It should have the form YY.MM.DD, as do the files on tunes.org.
21:45:55 <olsner> since it's 3d you can just move your head to the right to get a better view, right?
21:45:57 <elliott> IRC has no single standard character encoding. This module decodes messages as UTF-8 following common practice on Freenode.
21:46:03 <Vorpal> elliott, the way I see it... The reason we are still using 2D interfaces is that a 3D interface projected on a 2D surface sucks.
21:46:05 <elliott> we have invalid utf-8 in here
21:46:13 <elliott> unless it replaces invalid chars
21:46:15 <Vorpal> and we can't do true 3D interfaces in a reasonable way
21:46:31 <elliott> hm it looks like it does some kind of time zone stuff though
21:46:48 <elliott> Vorpal: 3D interfaces require another axis of movement
21:46:54 <elliott> a 1D interface would be ideal but it is bad for conveying data
21:47:05 <elliott> since the point is basically
21:47:07 <Vorpal> oh now what I thought then
21:47:13 <elliott> you have to move to a button
21:47:17 <elliott> even though this is purely "overhead"
21:47:17 <Vorpal> elliott, 3D interfaces would be useful with some things
21:47:21 <elliott> and not relevant to what you actually want to do
21:47:25 <elliott> you have to align two axes
21:47:35 <Vorpal> elliott, such as a 3D editor. A true 3D interface for that would be useful
21:47:35 <elliott> and not only is the visual aspect a problem like you said
21:47:51 <elliott> but it makes manoeuvring even more of a pain
21:48:19 <elliott> oerjan: heh this is almost my structure http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/clogparse/0.2/doc/html/Data-IRC-Event.html
21:48:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah. Still for some applications a true 3D hologram thingy would be useful
21:48:25 <elliott> except mine has hostname and server name
21:48:26 <Sgeo> Ohh, right, Croquet
21:48:29 <elliott> but that's arguably unnecessary
21:48:33 <Sgeo> How's Cobolt coming along?
21:48:40 <elliott> since clog doesn't know it...except it kinda does sometimes
21:49:43 <Vorpal> elliott, no no, Cobbleot like Camelot
21:50:53 <elliott> hmm /me wants to upload acme-evil to Hackage
21:51:01 <Vorpal> elliott, is the thing in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Edit_Source_Code.jpeg squeak btw?
21:51:04 <elliott> including this wonderful, horrible package: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/isevaluated
21:51:26 <elliott> Vorpal: such as that isEvaluated :P
21:52:24 <elliott> j-invariant: it would be fun to formalise that (conat -> bool) thing in coq
21:52:57 <elliott> forall (P : conat -> Prop), decidable P -> decidable (exists x, P x)
21:54:03 <Gregor> Vorpal: So you don't like accordions OR organs?
21:54:51 <elliott> j-invariant: surely you can
21:55:34 <elliott> j-invariant: I don't see why it couldn't be, the only tricky thing is handling the not case (infinity)
21:56:00 <elliott> j-invariant: yeah ok later :P
21:56:05 <elliott> j-invariant: it'd be extra fun with this though:
21:56:36 <augur> elliott: chu talkin bout foo'
21:56:52 <elliott> j-invariant: forall (P : nat -> Prop), someCondition P -> decidable P -> exists (Q : conat -> Prop), (forall x, P x -> Q (nat2conat x)) /\ decidable Q
21:57:00 <elliott> j-invariant: no fucking clue what someCondition would be
21:57:15 <j-invariant> why is it, when I touch the speaker end it buzzes? I'm not electric
21:57:54 <elliott> j-invariant: OH YESY OU ARE
21:58:36 <elliott> you and your cat are made of electric.
22:00:32 <oerjan> it's the body electric
22:00:50 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: So you don't like accordions OR organs? <-- uh, accordions are okay
22:00:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, I'm neutral about them
22:01:02 <Gregor> Oh, I thought it was you who complained about zee3 because of the accordion :P
22:01:21 <Vorpal> Gregor, or maybe saying it didn't seem to fit into the style of the rest of the music
22:01:34 <Vorpal> but I'm neutral towards accordions in general
22:01:39 <Gregor> Well zee3 doesn't fit with the other zees, but the accordion fits zee3's style :P
22:02:21 <elliott> lazy evaluation is so great
22:02:43 <Gregor> elliott: NOBODY ASKED YOU
22:02:49 <Gregor> elliott: (So you shouldn't have evaluated that fact)
22:06:00 * Gregor is listening to superturing.ogg on loop X-P
22:06:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://codu.org/music/silly/superturing.ogg
22:06:36 <Gregor> The ending is friggin' amazing X-P
22:08:13 <elliott> oerjan: spot the error that made this program do nothing:
22:08:17 <elliott> main = print <$> detectEncodingName <$> B.readFile "test.txt"
22:08:26 <Gregor> Also, the transition at 1:20 is pretty much the greatest moment in musical history.
22:08:37 <elliott> Gregor: Is that when it goes all piano?
22:08:54 <Gregor> elliott: Straight from thrashing overdriven guitar to ragtime :P
22:09:09 <elliott> Gregor: There's GUITAR? X-D
22:09:15 <elliott> Your soundfonts REALLY suck :P
22:09:28 <elliott> Seriously, this needs a live performance.
22:09:29 <Gregor> It's an overdriven guitar, it's supposed to sound like a wtf mess.
22:09:32 <elliott> Done by people looking VERY serious.
22:09:41 <elliott> Gregor: I OBJECT TO THAT STATEMENT
22:09:59 <quintopia> i agree with this idea of performing it live
22:10:11 <Sgeo> I OBJECT TO ALL USAGE OF THE CONCEPT OF OBJECTIONS
22:10:12 <Gregor> Fine, you guys arrange it :P
22:10:23 <elliott> I suggest a lot of people with a lot of instruments.
22:10:46 <quintopia> i think a lot of people with one instrument is a better idea
22:11:00 * Sgeo hits elliott and quintopia with an object
22:11:16 <quintopia> A SINGLE INSTRUMENT THAT REQUIRES 100 PEOPLE TO PLAY IT
22:11:23 * Sgeo hits everyone else with a subject
22:12:29 <Sgeo> I've been tortured enough!
22:12:56 <elliott> ok now how can i do this without a painful conversion process :D
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22:30:44 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: spot the error that made this program do nothing: <-- the print <$> ... action doesn't _perform_ a print statement but _returns_ one
22:30:57 <elliott> this makes me think that main should really be clamped to IO () :)
22:31:47 <Sgeo> Or just write main :: IO () in all your programs
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22:34:08 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Functor.<$>' [infixl 4] of a section
22:34:48 <oerjan> so actually strictly speaking it's left associative, and the first <$> isn't even with the right Functor, so it's just the same as ., although it comes out to the same in the end.
22:35:34 <oerjan> because one of the Functor rules is that f <$> (g <$> x) = (f . g) <$> x = (f <$> g) <$> x
22:39:49 * elliott wows at "Silly comments on Apollo 13"
22:42:14 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-icu
22:44:45 <elliott> copumpkin: I have utf-8 PLUS like 3 messages with stupid Windows shit
22:44:45 <oerjan> copumpkin: you haven't been paying attention
22:45:00 <elliott> copumpkin: I have decided that the only thing I can do is therefore support any encoding possible :)
22:45:05 <elliott> and automatically detect and convert them all to Unicode
22:45:07 <elliott> and send out the result as utf-8
22:45:28 <elliott> copumpkin: so this is great because I can convert just about any string into a Text
22:45:44 <elliott> rather than going from bytestring to bytestring to (utf8 decoder) to text
22:46:21 <elliott> http://clpastebin.appspot.com/ lol @ man in the middle
22:48:04 <elliott> perhaps I'll normalise the unicode
22:48:29 <elliott> oerjan: "Character set converter type. Note: this structure is not thread safe. It is not safe to use value of this type simultaneously from multiple threads."
22:48:44 <elliott> oerjan: Surely I should never be reading anything like that in Haskell library documentation...
22:48:46 <elliott> Talk about a leaky abstraction.
22:50:31 <elliott> oerjan: worse is, even though you can only create one in IO, you have
22:50:32 <elliott> fromUnicode :: Converter -> Text -> ByteStringSource
22:50:32 <elliott> Convert the Unicode string into a codepage string using the given converter.
22:50:32 <elliott> toUnicode :: Converter -> ByteString -> TextSource
22:50:32 <elliott> Convert the codepage string into a Unicode string using the given converter.
22:50:40 <elliott> if it was in IO, it'd be problematic but not language-breaking...
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23:30:31 <elliott> oerjan: I think I just wrote a Haskell program that depends on the endianness of the system ...
23:31:07 <elliott> Well, because someone else used the ffi :)
23:31:17 <elliott> case detectEncodingName text of
23:31:17 <elliott> Nothing -> error "unknown encoding!"
23:31:19 <elliott> let bstr = IConv.convertFuzzy Transliterate encoding "UTF32LE" text
23:31:21 <elliott> I.putStr (E.decodeUtf8 bstr)
23:31:33 <elliott> case detectEncodingName text of
23:31:35 <elliott> Nothing -> error "unknown encoding!"
23:31:39 <elliott> let bstr = IConv.convertFuzzy Transliterate encoding "UTF32LE" text
23:31:47 <elliott> I think that won't work on a big-endian system
23:32:47 <oerjan> @hoogle Bytestring -> IO ()
23:32:48 <lambdabot> Did you mean: ByteString -> IO () /count=20
23:32:48 <lambdabot> Control.Concurrent.MVar putMVar :: MVar a -> a -> IO ()
23:32:48 <lambdabot> Data.IORef writeIORef :: IORef a -> a -> IO ()
23:32:58 <oerjan> @hoogle ByteString -> IO ()
23:32:58 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString putStr :: ByteString -> IO ()
23:32:58 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString putStrLn :: ByteString -> IO ()
23:32:59 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Char8 putStr :: ByteString -> IO ()
23:32:59 <elliott> oerjan: won't work, i'm using this with blaze-html
23:33:11 <elliott> oerjan: so my choices are a String or Text
23:33:23 <elliott> oerjan: Text wants strict bytestrings, not lazy ones, and bleh
23:33:27 <elliott> oerjan: Strings are... this
23:33:40 <oerjan> um i'm merely pointing out that there is a putstr directly on ByteStrings
23:34:00 <elliott> oerjan: right, the point is that it'll actually be
23:34:14 <elliott> oerjan: because the end program won't actually be printing to stdout.
23:35:49 <elliott> <poincare101> also, what's the benefit of writing code in a purely functional language aside from theorem proving?
23:36:41 <elliott> j-invariant: poincare101 :P
23:36:51 <elliott> copumpkin: i think it's time to ban j-invariant :D
23:42:51 <Sgeo> SYMANTEC. MUST. DIE.
23:53:31 <elliott> <monochrom> haskell is based on Dana Scott's mathematics but not Erdös's mathematics
23:54:41 <elliott> http://fsl.cs.uiuc.edu/index.php/A_Formal_Semantics_of_C_with_Applications
23:54:46 <elliott> Abstract. This paper describes an executable formal semantics of C expressed using a formalism based on term rewriting. Being executable, the semantics has been thoroughly tested against the GCC torture test suite and successfully passes over 96% of 715 test programs. It is the most complete and thoroughly tested formal definition of C to date.
23:54:46 <elliott> The semantics yields an interpreter, debugger, and state space search tool "for free". The semantics is shown capable of automatically finding program errors, both statically and at runtime. It is also used to enumerate nondeterministic behavior. These techniques together allow the tool to identify undefined programs.
23:54:52 <elliott> Gregor: You should PUT THIS IN JSMIPS
23:55:11 <elliott> Even though that would do nothing :P
23:55:30 <j-invariant> successfully passes over 96% of 715 test programs.???
23:55:47 <elliott> j-invariant: well gcc's test suite is very comprehensive
23:55:53 <elliott> j-invariant: it's not surprising that a lot of them test pathological behaviour
23:56:00 <oerjan> everything has Erdős's mathematics in it somewhere
23:56:16 <elliott> j-invariant: less than 28.6 failing programs in a test suite as comprehensive and evil as gcc's is very impressive!
23:59:10 <elliott> j-invariant: do you _realise_ how awful C's semantics are?
23:59:17 <elliott> and how evil gcc's test suite will be?
23:59:24 <elliott> oerjan: btw i had an idea to circumvent the (x<5) can't be symbolic thing
23:59:55 <elliott> oerjan: use "error" to throw an exception with x and 5 serialised, catch it higher up, and then construct a symbolic value from that :D
00:00:24 <elliott> oerjan: now obviously you can just use unsafePerformIO to throw an exception with the data in it directly rather than serialising
00:00:28 <elliott> as long as you keep it all globally pure ...
00:00:49 <oerjan> um you don't need unsafePerformIO to throw exceptions
00:01:07 <elliott> hey look someone thinks I'm conal or someone: <davidL> hello :). I'm a friend of Jason's. I've seen you around in #llvm and probably at a Galois talk or two. I figured I should say hi sometime
00:07:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: hoogle hoogle+ do show todo yow
00:07:22 <lambdabot> Control.Exception throw :: Exception e => e -> a
00:07:22 <lambdabot> Control.OldException throw :: Exception e => e -> a
00:07:22 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base throw :: Exception e => e -> a
00:09:42 <elliott> oerjan: now the issue is, what about (a<3) && (a>1)
00:09:52 <elliott> oerjan: && uses unsafePerformIO to catch the two exceptions of its arguments
00:09:56 <elliott> and throws another exception
00:09:59 <elliott> this one representing a conjunction
00:10:02 <elliott> using the data from its two arguments
00:10:31 <elliott> oerjan: ofc, any function using this hideous, hideous type is ridiculously unsafe unless called by a catching function :)
00:10:37 <elliott> so clearly, no constructors could be exposed
00:10:41 <oerjan> except for the minor fact && is not polymorphic
00:11:14 <elliott> oerjan: well you could hide prelude's (&&), but then you could just hide prelude's (<) too
00:11:21 <elliott> oerjan: the purpose of this btw is for optimisation, consider querying a database engine
00:11:32 <elliott> you'd have "findRecords (\p -> age p < 42)"
00:11:45 <elliott> and it'd turn into "findRecordsQuery (Lt (Field "age") 42)"
00:11:59 <elliott> and anything it can't handle just gets run over every record in the db
00:12:38 <oerjan> this would be essentially the anti-haskell
00:13:05 <elliott> oerjan: ironically, a querying interface /based/ on this would be rather Haskelly
00:13:17 <elliott> oerjan: in that you'd just use pure functional predicates, and those queries that _can_ be optimised are
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00:16:30 <Gregor> OK, I got a new overdriven/distorted guitar soundfont. Plus a new timpani to boot.
00:18:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:19:09 <Gregor> Trying to see if I can improve the organ (which is actually pretty darn good)
00:20:38 <elliott> Gregor: What would 14-year-old Gregor think of this folly
00:20:47 <elliott> Your NEGLECT of SERIOUSNESS!
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00:28:23 <elliott> <table><tr><td class="timestamp"><time>HH:MM:SS</time></td><td class="who"><span class="angle"><</span>elliott<span class="angle">></span></td><td class="text">Hello, world!</td></tr></table>
00:28:35 <elliott> oerjan: My log formatter is suffering from second system syndrome a bit.
00:29:00 <elliott> oerjan: But you want to be able to choose whether you want left or right-aligned nicks, right???
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00:29:53 <elliott> oerjan: well i might even add a font selection.
00:30:27 <oerjan> well not if i have to reselect every time i visit
00:31:05 <oerjan> also i tend to go directly to a date by editing the address bar
00:31:09 <elliott> oerjan: nonono, it will use COOKIES
00:31:44 <elliott> oerjan: actually right now I'm just trying to figure out how to show "* foo blahs" as "• foo blahs" but have it copy-paste correctly :D
00:32:12 <elliott> 00:00:00<elliott>Hello, world!
00:32:12 <oerjan> second system syndrome, O KAY
00:32:26 <elliott> how does one pronounce "O KAY" anyway
00:32:57 <oerjan> like OK but more refined, yet louder
00:36:51 <elliott> "[Please do not use the comments section of my site to make it easier for people to rely on undocumented behavior. If you want to do that, do it on your own blog. -Raymond]" --The Old New Thing
00:37:09 <Gregor> The ending, with this selection of soundfonts.
00:37:25 <oerjan> but but if it's in the comments then it's NO LONGER undocumented!
00:37:43 <Gregor> elliott: So. So. Amazing.
00:37:47 <elliott> Okay, so I can't use tables/
00:38:00 <elliott> Guess I'll make it a BIG OL' HEAP of DIVS and SPANS
00:38:22 <oerjan> basically these days you have to do your own carpentry
00:38:37 <Gregor> Ignore people who say not to use tables for tables :P
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00:39:39 <elliott> Gregor: Nonono, for reasons other than it being "bad".
00:39:57 <elliott> Gregor: Because at least my browser puts tabs between table columns when copying.
00:40:06 <elliott> Gregor: I want nicely-formatted IRC logs, but they _must_ look reasonable when copied :P
00:40:19 <elliott> Logreaders rely on being able to paste logs into the channel to respond to them, so I have to get that working properly.
00:40:24 <elliott> Which means BIG MESS O' SPANS
00:40:38 <elliott> This also means that I'm going to have to manually size the time "column" rather than the browser figuring it out itself. Progress!
00:40:46 <elliott> This is why using a monospaced font was so nice :P
00:41:30 <elliott> 00:00:00 <elliott> Hello, world!
00:41:34 <oerjan> total project crash in 3,2,...
00:41:54 <elliott> 00:00:00 <elliott> Hello, world!
00:41:54 <elliott> 00:00:00 <elliott> Hello, world!
00:42:03 <elliott> I wonder how IE copies lists :P
00:42:10 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/superturingsv.ogg
00:42:14 <quintopia> what happens when you paste things from logs?
00:42:15 <Gregor> elliott: My bet: poorly
00:42:23 <elliott> oerjan: You, go find a bulleted list on the internet, select it all, Ctrl+C, and Ctrl+V it into here. KTHX
00:42:25 <quintopia> does it link to other places in logs?
00:42:34 <elliott> quintopia: An automated log-linking bot would be awesome :P
00:42:43 <elliott> I wonder how many lines we duplicate.
00:43:11 <elliott> Gregor: It's lost a little bit of its ridiculousness at the start :P
00:43:19 <elliott> Gregor: That electric guitar still doesn't sound like a real electric guitar, dude.
00:43:25 <elliott> And it's definitely not overdriven :P
00:43:38 <oerjan> The South Korean Navy rescues the crew of the hijacked Samho Jewelry, killing eight Somali pirates.
00:43:41 <oerjan> A series of bomb attacks across Iraq kills more than 100 people.
00:43:44 <oerjan> More than 50 people are killed in widespread flooding across southern Africa.
00:43:47 <Gregor> elliott: You're on crack.
00:44:10 <elliott> oerjan: Why is that a list X-D
00:44:12 <Gregor> That distorted electric guitar sounds like a distorted electric guitar :P
00:44:13 <elliott> Okay, so IE doesn't screw that up.
00:44:26 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe to someone who really hates the sound of electric guitars and thus has no good idea of what one sounds like :P
00:44:36 <oerjan> elliott: um it's from wp frontpage
00:44:52 <elliott> oerjan: Oh, I thought it was like, an actual list of some kind.
00:45:22 <elliott> "Lions is the sixth studio album by American rock band The Black Crowes." ""The critics who rated Lions lowest considered it a poor imitation of the band's influences, such as Led Zeppelin."
00:45:23 <oerjan> it was the second list i tried, esolang didn't load
00:45:25 <elliott> What an odd featured article :P
00:49:09 <elliott> | JOIN { target :: String }
00:49:09 <elliott> | PART { target :: String, text :: Text }
00:49:09 <elliott> | TOPIC { target :: String, text :: Text}
00:49:09 <elliott> | NICK { newNickname :: String }
00:49:12 <elliott> | MODE { target :: String, mode :: String
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00:53:00 <elliott> copumpkin: yes, yes it will
00:53:08 <elliott> copumpkin: but almost all the constructors have that :P
00:53:16 <elliott> admittedly I haven't actually used an accessor on that structure yet
00:53:25 <elliott> I might eliminate them later
00:54:59 <elliott> hmm, does freenode actually let you part with a message nowadays?
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00:56:56 <quintopia> i forgot to use /cycle instead of /part and ended up on the wrong #esoteric upon rejoining :P
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00:57:08 <elliott> quintopia: "the wrong #esoteric"? :p
00:58:48 <elliott> mrf, I've forgotten, i'll ask copumpkin
00:58:55 <elliott> copumpkin: are where-s pattern-local or function local?
01:00:49 <elliott> copumpkin: you see i have this parameter with the same name in every clause, and I don't want to pass it around :D
01:01:08 <elliott> formatLine origin (PRIVMSG _ text) = withPunctuation angled origin text
01:01:09 <elliott> formatLine origin (NOTICE _ text) = withPunctuation dashed origin text
01:01:09 <elliott> formatLine origin (ACTION _ text) = withPunctuation bulleted origin text
01:01:49 <elliott> copumpkin: how do you use those again :D
01:01:58 <copumpkin> oh the withPunctuation first param changes too
01:02:02 <copumpkin> how would you _like_ to write that?
01:02:28 <elliott> copumpkin: withPunctuation angled
01:02:29 <elliott> copumpkin: withPunctuation dashed
01:02:33 <elliott> copumpkin: actually text is not always the parameter
01:02:35 <elliott> copumpkin: withPunctuation angled text
01:02:37 <elliott> copumpkin: withPunctuation dashed text
01:02:50 <elliott> basically one parameter is always constant :D
01:02:57 <elliott> formatLine origin (TOPIC _ text) = withPunctuation bulleted origin $ T.concat ["changed the topic to: ", text]
01:02:57 <elliott> formatLine origin (NICK newNick) = withPunctuation bulleted origin $ T.concat ["changed their nickname to ", T.pack newNick]
01:02:57 <elliott> formatLine origin (MODE _ mode affected) = withPunctuation bulleted origin $ T.concat ["set mode ", T.pack mode, " ", T.unwords (map T.pack affected)]
01:03:00 <elliott> you can see how ugly it gets
01:03:21 <copumpkin> hmm, maybe a pattern guard, which is h2010 anyway
01:03:31 <elliott> copumpkin: how do you use those again >_>
01:03:56 <copumpkin> f x y | Just [q, (a, b)] <- g y (x + 1) =
01:04:11 <copumpkin> basically you can write a guard that matches a pattern and fails if it doesn't match
01:04:25 <copumpkin> so regular guards are simply | True <- f
01:04:32 <elliott> yeah i seem to recall that
01:04:39 <elliott> copumpkin: how would that actually work here, though?
01:05:10 <copumpkin> helper :: YourMessageType -> (PunctuationType, TextCrap)
01:05:57 <copumpkin> formatLine o q | (zomgtype, text) <- helper q = withPunctuation zomgtype o text
01:05:58 <elliott> copumpkin: i wouldn't need pattern guards then though :)
01:06:09 <elliott> Gregor: SuperTuring needs a better ending, I feel.
01:06:14 <elliott> Gregor: I have a humble proposal.
01:06:19 <copumpkin> well, presumably you'd make it do something smarter than that
01:06:30 <copumpkin> like maybe return a Maybe of that pair
01:06:35 <elliott> Gregor: Merge EVERY SINGLE PART OF THE SONG into one gigantic ending cacophany placed right after the current ending.
01:06:38 <copumpkin> so you can handle the easy cases homogeneously
01:07:14 <Gregor> The ending is FRIGGIN' AWESOME
01:07:48 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, it is ... but a cacophony mergingfest *right after* it would be even better.
01:08:02 <elliott> Gregor: Right as SUPERTURING comes on the screen.
01:08:13 <Gregor> Wow, this whole song and we haven't even seen him?
01:08:13 <elliott> And he, uh, jets off with his gay fartstream or however the hell SuperTuring flies.
01:08:19 <elliott> Gregor: THE WORD SUPERTURING
01:08:25 <elliott> But that would be amusing X-D
01:08:48 <elliott> Gregor: The opening sequence could show all of Turing's work, then his homosexuality being uncovered,
01:08:57 <elliott> Gregor: Ending with his transformation
01:09:05 <elliott> Gregor: That is the only thing that could possibly fill up the entire length of the song :P
01:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: Bonus points if all the horrible parts happen while the cheery piano is going on.
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01:09:57 <elliott> Gregor: SRSLYTHOUGH. Append cacophony!
01:12:46 <quintopia> end it with the beginning of mortuos plango, vivos voco!
01:12:55 <Sgeo> I suck at Go. Even against someone who's never played Go.
01:16:06 <Gregor> elliott: Nope, this sucks.
01:16:17 <elliott> Gregor: You haven't made it cacophonous enough.
01:16:23 <elliott> (Wow, "cacophonous" is a word.)
01:16:36 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, better: end it with HEAVY METAL
01:16:37 <Gregor> elliott: Even by the standards of cacophony, this cacophony sucks.
01:18:40 <elliott> Gregor: I think this theme should be Opus 14.
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01:20:24 <Gregor> pikhq: You've missed so much awesome :P
01:20:37 <elliott> Gregor: HAVE YOU MADE THE METAL ENDING YET
01:20:46 <Gregor> elliott: Yes. It sucked. I deleted it.
01:21:37 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/silly/superturing.ogg MORE AWESOME THAN EVER
01:24:43 <elliott> Gregor: Isn't it superturingsv now
01:24:59 <Gregor> elliott: That was just for /tmp/.
01:25:26 <Gregor> I use /tmp/ as a pastebin/filebin (I have a command set up to do that quickly), then eventually I put things in their proper place :P
01:25:32 <coppro> Gregor: i have to honestly say it sounds like a video game medly
01:26:04 <Gregor> (statements about it, that is)
01:27:30 <elliott> Oh wow, Attoparsec is scary
01:28:05 <elliott> HEY GREGOR I'm actually going to work on Kitten again, your dreams of noGNU/Linux will come true. Using a really dodgy definition of dream.
01:28:23 <Gregor> Pics or it didn't happen.
01:29:01 <coppro> also in general it sounds about 20% too fast
01:29:50 <elliott> Gregor: Either that or I'll switch to Windows XP, WATCH THIS SPACE
01:29:56 <Gregor> elliott: HEY I COULD MAKE THE THEME EVEN LONGER
01:30:11 <Gregor> ('cuz according to coppro it's too fast)
01:30:23 <elliott> Gregor: I feel that experimental electronic music is sorely underrepresented in the theme.
01:30:24 <Gregor> Accidentally allowed myself to tab-complete coppro instead of typing "pooppy"
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01:50:42 <Gregor> elliott: The whole theme is experimental electronic music ;)
01:52:39 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 3.6M 2011-01-24 02:01 logview
01:52:43 <elliott> I love those compact Haskell binaries.
01:55:10 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *) b. (Functor f) => a -> f b -> f a
01:55:14 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
01:55:21 <lifthrasiir> elliott, seems to be too late, but puzzlet is not me
01:55:28 <elliott> lifthrasiir: yeah i realised that later :)
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02:00:48 <elliott> lifthrasiir: so when are we getting a new esotope-bfc :D
02:01:30 * elliott donates 1 Spare Time to lifthrasiir
02:01:43 <elliott> but I require that the new version completely evaluate every program up to input! :D
02:02:25 <elliott> seventy billion hours, now get on it :P
02:02:32 <elliott> oh and it cannot fail to halt of course
02:02:37 <elliott> so every non-halting program must be detected
02:08:36 <elliott> lifthrasiir: You could write esotope-brainfuck/w/index.php?title=talk:brainfuck/index.php instead. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
02:12:14 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Word.Word8'
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02:48:05 <lambdabot> expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression
02:48:08 <lambdabot> expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression
02:55:05 <Sgeo> Gilad Bracha just wrote some rant about monads and how actors are better
02:55:24 <elliott> imo strings are better than rationals
02:55:30 <elliott> also exponentiation is better than ascii
02:55:42 <Sgeo> http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2011/01/maybe-monads-might-not-matter.html
02:55:52 <elliott> furthermore, HTTP is better than a weasel talking about magic
02:56:07 <elliott> and I would generally use right-aligned text over, say, drop down menus that explode
02:57:30 <Sgeo> "The most important practical contribution of monads in programming is, I believe, the fact that they provide a mechanism to interface pure functional programming to the impure dysfunctional world.
02:57:30 <Sgeo> The thing is, you dont really need them for that. Just use actors. Purely functional actors can interact with the stateful world, and this has been known since before Haskell was even conceived."
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03:06:02 <elliott> tolkad: ah, and another #haskeller trickles in
03:06:12 <elliott> soon, we will envelop the entire channel
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03:16:09 <Gregor> I am one of the few elite who has beaten Muscle March.
03:16:09 <Gregor> That's right. I am amazing.
03:16:13 <tolkad> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
03:16:49 <Gregor> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_s7iCOj9HU
03:28:50 <tolkad> ^ul `r```````````.H.e.l.l.o. .w.o.r.l.di
03:29:29 <tolkad> isn't that valid unlambda?
03:29:53 <Ilari> Hah... There is hardly a blogpost by this cardiac doctor where he doesn't slam wheat... :-)
03:31:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
03:31:22 <elliott> !unlambda `r```````````.H.e.l.l.o. .w.o.r.l.di
03:31:26 <elliott> tolkad: fungot is btw written in befunge-98
03:31:26 <fungot> elliott: anybody care to recommend references for developing web apps in scheme
03:31:27 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
03:33:07 <fungot> > replicate 196 ' ' ++ "^botloop"
03:34:24 <fungot> > replicate 196 ' ' ++ "^botloop"
03:34:30 <elliott> how did that happen, are you using /msg? :-)
03:34:51 <fungot> (> replicate 196 ' ' ++ "^botloop")S
03:35:04 <tolkad> guess it doesn't wrap in-channel
03:35:10 <elliott> tolkad: you could probably use ?so.
03:35:27 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
03:35:30 <elliott> ^def lol ul (> "?so ^lol")S
03:35:56 <elliott> hey fizzie add lambdabot to fungot's magic list
03:35:57 <fungot> elliott: i googled time decay and i got to
03:37:50 <tolkad> @pl (\x -> x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x) ^botloop
03:37:53 <lambdabot> join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (
03:37:53 <lambdabot> join (join (join (join id)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ^ botloop
03:38:23 <elliott> ha ha, lambdabot is badly engineerd
03:38:28 <elliott> our befunge-98 code is far more reliable
03:38:43 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
03:39:46 <tolkad> @fact-set tolkad_test test
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03:40:24 <EgoBot> 128 +++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>+.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-----.++.>-.>----.<<-----.>----.-..+.>>+. [354]
03:40:29 <elliott> ^def poop: bf +++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>+.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-----.++.>-.>----.<<-----.>----.-..+.>>+.
03:40:40 <variable> elliott, 128 & 354 --> what are those
03:40:51 <elliott> variable: first is length, second is generations (it's a genetic algo of some sort)
03:40:54 <elliott> ^def poop: bf +++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>+.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-----.++.>-.>----.<<-----.>----.-..+.
03:41:17 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
03:41:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
03:41:34 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
03:41:53 <elliott> ...doesn't help me understand :D
03:47:33 <Sgeo> FILE_NOT_FOUND
03:47:55 <EgoBot> 72 +++++++++++[>+>++++++++>++++++><<<<-]>>--.>+++.<----.+.>++++.<----.-.<-. [77]
03:48:07 <elliott> ^bf +.+++++++++++[>+>++++++++>++++++><<<<-]>>--.>+++.<----.+.>++++.<----.-.[-]+.
03:48:25 <elliott> ^bf +.-+++++++++++[>+>++++++++>++++++><<<<-]>>--.>+++.<----.+.>++++.<----.-.[-]+.
03:48:27 <elliott> quintopia: no, that's impossible
03:48:58 <elliott> ew copumpkin is running that stupid commercial limechat fork
03:48:59 <tolkad> I like the screen clear command
03:49:04 <quintopia> elliott: no, i've seen a bot be made to quit by exploiting weirdnesses with line breaks in its echo ability
03:49:25 <quintopia> (it might be something that can only be done in whatever language that was written in tho)
03:49:27 <elliott> v0, that explains the excellent stability
03:49:42 * Sgeo gives up pretending to be a bot
03:50:13 <Sgeo> All v0 programs surely are one and the same?
03:50:14 <quintopia> elliott: oh pretty please try to break it :P
03:51:05 <Sgeo> 0 modifications to the code, it's all the same, like L-Space!
03:51:25 <tolkad> @bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<+[>.<+]
03:51:25 <lambdabot> 222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222...
03:51:40 <Sgeo> tolkad, don't worry. There's no such thing as 2.
03:52:13 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to ReferenceBot.
03:52:27 <elliott> there's no such thing as jews
03:52:27 <ReferenceBot> It would have been hilarious if this were registered
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04:00:31 <tolkad> it would be fun to pretend to be a bot
04:00:38 <quintopia> @bf +++++++++++++.->++++++++<[>[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<-]>>++++++++++++++++++++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.
04:01:14 <tolkad> use a markov-chain bot to come up with responses, then slowly start altering them to be more intelligent
04:01:17 <quintopia> i did that in my head at speed. surprised it came out spelling the right word.
04:01:39 <quintopia> ^bf +++++++++++++.->++++++++<[>[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<-]>>++++++++++++++++++++.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.
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04:27:54 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/71156/ <-- yes
04:33:56 <quintopia> Gregor: i find this graph sexist. if it said "male architects" in the middle, maybe it'd be okay.
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04:35:19 <Gregor> quintopia: Pfff, women can't be architects, skyscrapers aren't omelettes.
04:35:50 <quintopia> Gregor: i'll be sure to let my women architect friends know that.
04:36:07 <quintopia> (also: very few architects get to build skyscrapers)
04:37:39 <Gregor> And very few ... I can't find a way to turn that around for women->omelettes :P
04:38:45 <quintopia> nah, go ahead and say it formulawise
04:38:57 <quintopia> omelettes are pretty difficult to make
04:41:03 <variable> they are hard to make __well__
04:41:55 <quintopia> variable: can you make a good omelette?
04:42:09 <Gregor> I can't even make plain ol' fried eggs very well :P
04:42:28 <variable> quintopia, your missing the magic words
04:42:43 <variable> quintopia, magic - not technical
04:42:50 <Gregor> Make me an omelette, bitch!
04:43:29 <Gregor> (That's a female dog that is also an omelette)
04:43:45 <quintopia> they're even harder to make than omelettes alone
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05:50:29 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/71156/ <-- yes <-- hahah
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14:54:07 <elliott> hm the logs do not show Dana_of_The_mead leaving
14:54:19 <elliott> maybe the nick-change logic is borken
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14:56:33 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:ClearBF
14:57:07 <ais523> hmm, a lot of hate on the page
14:57:16 <ais523> I'll give it a few more days, it's not like it's hurting anything
14:57:46 <ais523> since when did we delete esolangs just because there was no evidence they existed?
14:58:21 <oerjan> "a lot"? it's just two posters...
14:58:30 <elliott> well there was discussion in here
14:58:33 <ais523> oerjan: that's a lot for esolang
14:58:33 <elliott> resulting in the first comment
14:58:35 <elliott> and i just posted the second
14:58:44 <fizzie> oerjan: In esolang circles, two people correspond to two million in the real world.
14:58:57 <oerjan> fizzie: EEK, it's crowded!
14:59:04 <elliott> ais523: it's because of their attitude really... not only is the article basically a laughable advertisement of their own "achievements" but their blog is similarly contentless with a whole post devoted to how they created an article on the wiki
14:59:20 <elliott> If it was just "oh we made this language but we haven't got a spec up yet" I wouldn't mind, but it's more like
14:59:33 <elliott> "We made a language! [List of people] And implemented it with C! And flex! And it's a project! And here is a link to our blog!"
14:59:46 <elliott> blog: "We made a wiki article! We use C and flex! The end!"
15:00:17 <fizzie> I'm just happy about the fact that esolangs.org is the "Esolang official website". Gives it all a nice veneer of legitimacy.
15:00:44 <elliott> alternatively, I wouldn't mind it being moved to User:Yasser/ClearBF, although [[User:Yasser]] is currently an old copy of the page...
15:03:07 <oerjan> hm my reading of the actual wordpress blog gives me the impression the project may not actually be _finished_
15:03:43 <elliott> oerjan: but they've implemented it, in C and Fast Lexical Analyser!
15:03:59 <elliott> Compilation Project! ENSIAS!
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15:05:42 * elliott tries to find their school on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles, fails
15:07:20 <ais523> elliott: C-INTERCAL is written in C, and generally uses flex
15:07:25 <ais523> does that make it a valid esolang project too?
15:07:59 <oerjan> OF COURSE NOT. REMOVE C-INTERCAL NOW!
15:08:00 <elliott> ais523: no! it is not "Compilation Project" at ENSIAS - Rabat!
15:08:16 <elliott> you have not applied the content of the Compilation course on the development of a compiler, which is a relatively large application!
15:08:17 <fizzie> Well, their school-link, http://www.ensias.ma/, is in .ma (Morocco), not .fr.
15:08:29 <elliott> fizzie: YOU AND YOUR SEMANTICS
15:08:39 <elliott> fizzie: I tried googling their name first but they don't appear to, you know, *exist*.
15:09:00 <elliott> But, err, I sorta forgot to .ma thing :P
15:09:21 <elliott> Morocco has also some of prestigious Postgraduate Schools like : L'École Mohammadia d'ingénieurs, l'Institut national de statistique et d'économie appliquée, l'École nationale d'industrie minérale, l'École Hassania des travaux publics, l'Institut supérieur de commerce et d'administration des entreprises, ENCG (écoles nationales de commerce et de gestion), EST (écoles supérieures de technolog
15:10:34 <fizzie> "Founded in 1992, the National School of Computer Science and Systems Analysis (ENSIAS) is one of nine institutions of the University Mohammed V - Souissi. C'est une grande école d'ingénieurs spécialisée en Technologies de l'Information et de la Communication. This is a great engineering school specializing in Information Technology and Communication. Elle a pour missions la formation d'ingénieurs d'état et la recherche en vue du développement technologi
15:10:34 <fizzie> que et économique du Maroc. Its mission is to train engineers and state of research to technological and economic development of Morocco."
15:10:48 <oerjan> ais523: Talk:AlphaBeta is spammed _again_
15:10:51 <fizzie> Which copy-pastes both the original and the translated.
15:10:59 <fizzie> I always manage to not remember that.
15:11:31 <ais523> wow those spambots are fast
15:11:42 <ais523> I'm going to look for a pattern (other than the page) to see how easy it would be to lock it down
15:12:37 <ais523> oerjan: there we go, I even deleted the spam from recent changes (just to make sure I could still remember how to do that)
15:13:51 <oerjan> ais523: one might suspect looking for filled in non-existing form fields might be a good idea?
15:14:01 <ais523> I mean, that I can implement
15:14:20 <ais523> I'm only an admin, I don't have server-level access
15:14:31 <ais523> but the spambots in question seem to be a wide range of IPs, it doesn't look like blocking them would help
15:14:40 <ais523> protecting the page helps sometimes, but sometimes just makes them move onto a different page
15:14:54 <oerjan> i was being slightly sarcastic there, it's pretty obvious this is reaching the point where you _cannot_ detect it
15:14:56 <fizzie> I'm an admin, not an elevator.
15:15:40 <oerjan> automatically, that is
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15:15:53 <fizzie> Moderate all talk pages by making the comments get pasted on #esoteric and need at least three different "!upvote"s before being shown on page?
15:15:53 <elliott> ais523: evil idea: require JS to submit
15:15:58 <elliott> yes, this is a pain, but less of a pain than spambots
15:16:04 <elliott> I doubt they execute full JS
15:16:53 <ais523> elliott: a) that's impossible in general (although you can do something crazy like send encrypted text and a public key and make a JS algo do the decrypting, which comes to much the same thing), and b) it'd hurt people who don't execute JS, which is probably a surprisingly large proportion of the site's visiters
15:17:58 <elliott> ais523: just run some source obfuscator over something that constructs the form, I doubt spammers know the URL to submit to or the form fields
15:18:07 <elliott> and (b) sure, but so does the restriction on divs!
15:18:14 <elliott> and making anonymous users add an edit summary!
15:18:35 <elliott> I'm sure every editor has a browser with some javascript capability, it's just a noscript exemption or whatever, and it'd probably solve the problem for good
15:18:37 <ais523> I completely forgot about the restriction on divs
15:18:43 <fizzie> If they don't run JS at all, you can just leave the form "action" field empty and put a <script> that sets it.
15:19:02 <ais523> fizzie: that depends on how guessable the action element is
15:19:14 <elliott> ais523: spammers == low hanging fruit
15:19:15 <ais523> spambots designed for mediawiki probably don't look at it anyway
15:19:24 <ais523> elliott: we've blocked most of those as it is
15:19:33 <ais523> the current spambots are aiming for a fruit that's slightly higher
15:19:47 <elliott> <form id="editform" name="editform" method="post" action="/w/index.php?title=Talk:AlphaBeta&action=submit" enctype="multipart/form-data">
15:19:56 <elliott> ais523: I imagine spammers have some kind of website automation framework
15:20:23 <elliott> ais523: they might already have to look at the form:
15:20:24 <elliott> <input type='hidden' value="20110124152903" name="wpStarttime" />
15:20:24 <elliott> <input type='hidden' value="20110124152128" name="wpEdittime" />
15:20:34 <ais523> elliott: that's for detecting edit conflicts
15:20:50 <elliott> ais523: hmm, they make sure to add an edit summary, whereas most spambots would probably avoid doing so, to stay unnoticed
15:21:00 <elliott> ais523: I wonder if it's because we reject non-edit-summary edits? naw
15:21:03 <ais523> based on the times in question, they know if overwriting someone else's change was accidental (to give a prompt), or deliberate
15:21:19 <ais523> elliott: some spammers are even posting URLs on occasion, which means they cracked the CAPTCHA
15:21:29 <ais523> admittedly, it's MediaWiki's default CAPTCHA and very simple
15:21:45 <ais523> but it requires knowledge that it's MediaWiki's default CAPTCHA in order to do that
15:21:56 <elliott> ais523: how much page layout can administrators edit?
15:22:02 <elliott> you can add stuff to the top and bottom of the edit page, right?
15:22:10 <ais523> hardly anything, we can't rearrange the skin or anything like that
15:22:19 <ais523> what we can do is add or remove text where there's text already
15:22:24 <ais523> but even then, it's not arbitrary HTML
15:22:29 <ais523> it's all escaped and sanitised
15:22:51 <elliott> ais523: you can rename the "edit" link, right?
15:23:20 <ais523> the link that says "edit this page"? we can change the text of the link, although not the URL it goe sto
15:23:27 <ais523> and I don't see how that would help at all
15:23:40 <ais523> I think either Esolang or Wikipedia customised it
15:23:44 <elliott> ais523: If you renamed edit to "change" and + to ++, well, it's an off-chance...
15:23:52 <elliott> ais523: but I bet they DO look for that link, if not for its text
15:24:01 <elliott> they don't know that mediawiki is at /w/index.php
15:24:03 <elliott> and the link tells them that
15:24:17 <elliott> they probably just look for it in a list, but it's worth a try
15:24:18 <ais523> elliott: they almost certainly find it by spidering for forms
15:24:24 <ais523> which is the completely obvious way to do it
15:24:29 <elliott> ais523: hmm, edit robots.txt?
15:24:35 <elliott> so google doesn't find it?
15:24:35 <ais523> elliott: spambots respect that?
15:24:40 <elliott> ais523: haha, that would be great
15:25:21 <fizzie> The spambots will be all "Oh, you didn't want spam after all? :/ Well then, never mind, I'll be going, have a nice day!"
15:25:38 <elliott> "But... don't you want to hear about how much I like your blog?"
15:26:00 <elliott> "Oh, I'm sorry, I just wanted to tell you about how you could make your penis bigger...if you don't want to that's ok..."
15:27:11 <oerjan> basically what we have here is a bunch of expert programmers who cannot keep a wiki spamfree because they don't actually have access to change its code.
15:27:50 <ais523> designing an esolang-based captcha would be so much fun, too
15:27:55 <elliott> if we had access to the source, I'd just rename all the form fields, add another one hidden by CSS visibility:hidden with a little note saying "don't fill this in" that stops the edit if it's filled in, called "url" or similar,
15:28:07 <elliott> and rename the edit action to editnospam
15:28:39 <ais523> elliott: visibility:hidden? that causes the object to take space on the screen, but not actually be rendered
15:28:53 <elliott> ais523: because apparently some spambots can do simple css
15:28:56 <elliott> so display:none might be caught
15:29:04 <elliott> ais523: I'd arrange it so that it's to the right of the buttons, say
15:29:09 <elliott> so that it doesn't actually change anything
15:29:15 <ais523> also, Google tends to get annoyed with you if you do that, although it's on a robots-excluded page so it probably doesn't matter
15:29:21 <elliott> ais523: oh, better: I'd have a white-backgrounded div with a higher z-index on top of it
15:29:32 <elliott> also, it's quite a common anti-spam technique
15:29:48 <elliott> <span class="emailfield"><input name="email" type="text" size="25" value="'"/> IGNORE THIS OK</span>
15:29:50 <Gregor> Do spambots handle JavaScript?
15:29:58 <elliott> Gregor: I already suggested that.
15:30:04 <elliott> Gregor: But, err, it's possible :P
15:30:07 <Gregor> elliott: Well I don't read backlogs :P
15:30:22 <ais523> Gregor: if they did, you could have all sorts of fun
15:30:37 <ais523> using botnets you didn't own for calculations
15:30:43 <Gregor> I was actually thinking the opposite, autocaptcha.
15:31:21 <ais523> a CAPTCHA that just sends a bunch of JavaScript and gets the user's browser to solve it?
15:31:39 <Gregor> Even one line of JavaScript, if the spambots don't run JS at all :P
15:32:03 <ais523> well, if you're a large enough site, they might hardcode what the JS is meant to do
15:32:21 <Gregor> We're not, and you could make the JS send down an arbitrary BF program.
15:33:07 <elliott> ooh, you could do JS-Hashcash
15:33:24 <elliott> at the very least, it'd slow them down a lot
15:33:25 <Gregor> Anyway, Vorpal will complain :P
15:35:52 <ais523> one issue with hashcash-style algos is trying to adapt them to the other person's processor
15:36:06 <Gregor> Doesn't somebody who isn't graue own esolangs.org?
15:36:09 <elliott> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash is pretty universal...
15:36:11 <ais523> e.g. what would slow a powerful desktop up for a second or so would be far too long on a mobile phone
15:36:22 <elliott> ais523: phones have 1ghz arms these days
15:36:36 <elliott> ais523: hashcash is fast, anyway
15:36:37 <ais523> elliott: there's still a definite speed difference, though
15:36:41 <elliott> ais523: the point is that spambots don't do JS
15:36:49 <ais523> and being fast defeats the point, doesn't it?
15:36:52 <elliott> ais523: and this way, the only way to circumvent it without doing JS,
15:36:55 <elliott> is to actually do the intensive work
15:36:57 <elliott> so it's basically ubreakable
15:37:07 <Gregor> elliott: All I'm thinking is that in principle we could just "mirror" the wiki, change the A record, and leave graue out of it :P
15:37:13 <elliott> ais523: hashcash takes like a second
15:37:20 <elliott> ais523: the point is that it's less than zero CPU work
15:37:22 <ais523> bruteforcing a hash that starts with lots of zeroes is faster if you do it native rather than JS
15:37:26 <elliott> ais523: spambots aren't gonna start manually doing our hashcash system
15:37:29 <elliott> and I very much doubt they execute JS
15:37:34 <ais523> elliott: oh, I'm thinking about CAPTCHAing in general
15:37:35 <elliott> the hashcash is just a proof that the browser executes JS
15:37:46 <elliott> Gregor: Categories without being yelled at?
15:37:48 <Gregor> I actually would not be surprised if they execute JS, that's the bit we haven't proven.
15:38:02 <elliott> Gregor: Well, sure, but if they have to do hashcash for every one of our pages, we're hogging their CPU time.
15:38:05 <oerjan> ais523: the thing about captchas is that it's best if you _don't_ do them "in general"
15:38:16 <ais523> oerjan: security through obscurity!
15:38:31 <elliott> obscurity through security1
15:38:40 <elliott> hmm, challenge: golf a package manager
15:43:39 <Ilari> APNIC at 1.4x/8... Crazy low...
15:44:17 <ais523> Ilari: any idea why the allocation hasn't happened yet?
15:44:27 <elliott> ais523: press release writing
15:44:31 <Ilari> 0.86x/8 allocated in 2 weeks...
15:44:45 <elliott> ais523: we don't hear when allocations get made, just when they're fulfilled
15:44:50 <Ilari> Nah, apparently APNIC hasn't requested yet (or did it recently).
15:44:50 <elliott> so IANA is almost certainly just stalling
15:45:12 <ais523> perhaps APNIC has just quietly NATted the whole of Asia and are hoping nobody notices
15:45:20 <Ilari> According to some IANA sources, they won't delay processing the request...
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15:47:27 <ais523> did I tell you about my idea for an anagolf-based programming language?
15:47:34 <ais523> programs are just integers
15:48:08 <ais523> and in order to interpret them, the interp finds the anagolf problem with the matching number, runs all the programs on it that aren't marked as cheats, and takes the majority opinion
15:48:12 <ais523> disregarding identical programs
15:48:42 <ais523> this leads to really short impls of most standard programs
15:49:02 <ais523> as well as almost tautologically winning on anagolf, although only after the deadline
15:49:10 <ais523> insane enough to work?
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15:53:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: -minecraft
15:53:37 <Ilari> And if they don't delay, that either means APNIC hasn't requested the space yet (WTF?) or the request has come so recently that IANA hasn't been able to process it yet...
15:53:58 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: People kept complaining about the soundfonts :P
15:54:57 <ais523> I'm at work, but should I listen to that when I get home, and if so, why?
15:55:40 <Gregor> ais523: http://codu.org/music/silly/superturing.ogg Yes, because it's awesome and will CHANGE YOUR LIFE
15:55:58 <ais523> I like the silly in the URL
15:56:04 <ais523> I should investigate to see if there's a serious dir too
15:56:16 <Gregor> That's everything that's not in "/silly/" :P
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15:58:55 <elliott> ais523: It's the theme tune to SuperTuring, the least tasteful superhero TV show ever.
15:59:33 <Gregor> With a theme like this, it's really gotta be a movie :P
15:59:57 <elliott> ais523: It is also the world's greatest musical achievement.
16:00:33 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, the transition at 1:22 is the most inspired in musical history.
16:00:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I think turning the suicide of a brilliant homosexual because of his government-mandated "treatment" into the birth of a super hero is way up there on the tasteless ranks :P
16:01:01 <elliott> Apart from Batman, who we all know is actually Hitler in a costume.
16:01:22 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, well, yes, but I'm sure the neo-Nazis have tried their hand at the superhero genre. Although that's not so much tasteless as hateful.
16:01:38 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Bummer
16:01:46 <elliott> Tyrannosaurus Reich is a supervillain who was featured in Major Bummer #5. T. Reich was pulled to earth through a dimensional portal from a dimension inhabited by Nazi dinosaurs.[1]
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16:03:47 <elliott> ais523: so I had a horrible idea
16:03:57 <elliott> ais523: you know my Python Braces?
16:04:09 <ais523> I know the concept of braces in Python in general
16:04:20 <ais523> yep, IIRC there's a source filter for that around somewhere
16:04:24 <elliott> ais523: the preprocessor I wrote that did "if x==3: { foo }" properly
16:04:38 <elliott> well...you were there so I'll just assume you remember
16:04:42 <elliott> ais523: I've figured out what version 2 should be
16:05:23 <elliott> (class Hello (object) (def (say_hello) (print "Hello, world!")))
16:05:31 <elliott> bonus points if print is a macro that cannot be passed around, like in real Python
16:06:09 <ais523> elliott: I thought that was an old version of Python?
16:06:21 <elliott> ais523: print is a function in Python 3, but nobody uses Python 3 at all
16:06:44 <elliott> ais523: that's like saying "I thought [Perl 5 feature] was an old version of Perl?", except if the Perl 6 implementations were good
16:06:59 <ais523> python 3 is that unpopular?
16:07:30 <elliott> ais523: well, nobody /dislikes/ it, but it's a catch-22 of "i won't port app until libraries" "i won't port library until users"
16:19:38 <oerjan> <ais523> Ilari: any idea why the allocation hasn't happened yet? <-- i saw some comment suggesting they might want to wait until some major conference in february for PR reasons ... didn't give any evidence though
16:27:40 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: It's the theme tune to SuperTuring, the least tasteful superhero TV show ever. <-- incidentally there's a norwegian web-only superhero series called "fanthomas" whose characters are based on norwegian celebrities; the main superhero character is based on a gay stylist. i'd probably know more if i actually watched tv, or for that matter the series...
16:28:42 <Gregor> oerjan: "gay" is redundant in that noun phrase.
16:29:26 <ais523> hmm, potential worst idea ever: in Chrome, the search/URL box should work like Google Instant and show the I'm Feeling Lucky result
16:29:38 <ais523> so you can keep typing until the site you were thinking of comes up
16:30:02 <elliott> ais523: it shows google results when you type in the url bar
16:30:07 <ais523> elliott: I didn't say results
16:30:14 <ais523> I said the actual pages themselves
16:30:37 <elliott> "porn" AAAAAAAAAH! I was going to type "ography is immoral"!
16:31:03 <ais523> now I'm vaguely wondering what the top google result for porn is, and how often it changes
16:31:36 <elliott> I just checked after saying that, it's pornhub.com
16:31:44 <elliott> amusingly, porn.com is just second
16:31:56 * elliott wonders how much porn.com is worth
16:32:05 <ais523> more than it should be, I suspect
16:32:24 <elliott> Man, pushing chickens into lava pits is really difficult.
16:34:41 <Gregor> pornhub.com is in the Alexa top 100, porn.com isn't.
16:35:11 <elliott> I have no idea why people look at Alexa ratings.
16:35:20 <Gregor> Ohhhhh I think I just called your mom a lesbian.
16:35:25 <Gregor> elliott: Because there's no alternative.
16:35:49 <Gregor> Google is not a toplist, and cannot spit out a toplist.
16:36:14 <oerjan> <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, well, yes, but I'm sure the neo-Nazis hae tried their hand at the superhero genre. [...] <-- somehow i thought i'd read that the _old_ nazis made up a jewish supervillain parody of superman, but i cannot seem to google it...
16:36:14 <elliott> Your mom can't spit out a toplist.
16:36:43 <Gregor> elliott: No, but then neither can Google, so *eh*
16:37:08 <elliott> Gregor: "Your mother can't feed her children." "No, but then neither can Google, so *eh*"
16:37:37 <Gregor> elliott: Now you've got it.
16:38:02 <Gregor> Should my mother REALLY be expected to be more powerful than The Google?
16:38:08 <Gregor> I mean, let's be honest, that's sacrilege.
16:38:16 <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: "gay" is redundant in that noun phrase. <-- perhaps. he has a husband too...
16:38:59 <Gregor> You crazy Europeans and your human rights *ha ha ha*
16:39:29 <elliott> Gregor: You know how I reduced plash to basically a FUSE exercise?
16:39:41 <elliott> Gregor: I just realised that the whole /tmp being an alias thing is exactly what you can do with cunionfs.
16:41:06 <Gregor> (However, cunionfs allows /any/ process to change what it views, so it's hardly a lockdown)
16:41:27 <ais523> doesn't plash also control CPU usage?
16:46:45 <oerjan> <Gregor> Should my mother REALLY be expected to be more powerful than The Google? <-- depends. are we considering force of gravitation here?
16:58:45 <Gregor> elliott: "OK, you can solve the halting problem ... but what use is that for fighting crime?" "Well, you know how every interesting problem in computing reduces to the halting problem, yes?" "A lot of them do, fine." "The universe is just a physical implementation of a bounded-storage Turing machine." "That's a bit of a stretch, but even so—" *bright flash of light, SuperTuring vanishes* "... what the hell?"
17:01:00 <oerjan> reminds me of qntm.org/responsibility
17:09:16 -!- quintopia has set topic: ALAMAAILMAN VASARAT RAWX | logs: http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ (formatted hammers); http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D (unformatted underworlds).
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17:11:55 <oerjan> the mailman from outer space
17:14:00 <Ilari> This artcle claims APNIC will ask for the address space this week...
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17:14:46 <oerjan> theory: some nigerian has somehow got AFRINIC to ask for an allocation and IANA is desperately trying to find a way to control the fallout
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17:16:30 <Ilari> I think that would be rejected...
17:20:17 <Gregor> Nah, the IPs would have all gone to whites in South Africa anyway.
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17:23:32 <Vorpal> <oerjan> theory: some nigerian has somehow got AFRINIC to ask for an allocation and IANA is desperately trying to find a way to control the fallout <-- what
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17:33:09 <oerjan> Vorpal: (1) it would amount to africa stealing IPs from asia (2) nigerian scammers
17:33:39 <Slereah> Yeah, I would trust the bank of Bangkok much more
17:33:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, would it? if they run out they could get some
17:34:29 <oerjan> Vorpal: obviously AFRINIC is _not_ running out, they are the smallest region
17:35:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, well they could come to the end of a block
17:35:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: well the whole point is no one expects them to need it
17:36:12 <oerjan> while asia's internet is growing faster than the rest of world's combined
17:36:48 <oerjan> (technically, asia minus middle east and russia or so)
17:37:10 <oerjan> oh and + australia etc.
17:38:03 <oerjan> Vorpal: in any case it's a joke on the fact that everyone expects APNIC to make the two last normal allocations
17:38:17 <oerjan> Slereah: well it's most of asia by population
17:38:27 <Slereah> More of a bordering-the-pacific kind of thing
17:38:40 <oerjan> yeah the P is for pacific
17:39:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: i hereby officially give you the cognomen of Joke-Slayer
17:41:33 <oerjan> Slereah: co- + (g)nomen
17:42:27 <pikhq> And APNIC at 1.4 /8s...
17:45:32 <oerjan> co-gnome obviously belong to the underworld categories
17:47:35 <oerjan> <quintopia> the unformatted ones of course
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17:51:53 <Gregor> Hmmm, would it be "immoral" to make a web service to render MIDI in an expensive (but legally purchased by me) soundfont? :P
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17:52:25 <quintopia> Gregor: my morals don't cover this situation
17:52:44 <quintopia> i say it is de facto legal, however
17:52:56 <Gregor> It is most assuredly legal.
17:53:32 <Phantom__Hoover> It is also moral unless you're ais, but he has a non-standard definition.
17:54:40 <Gregor> So yeah, I bought the SONiVOX 250MB GM set.
17:54:42 <quintopia> Gregor: if you have been known to pirate things, it's not even a question anymore...
17:54:53 <Gregor> It's pretty decent, and I /don't/ pirate things.
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17:56:44 * Gregor proceeds to create webmidi.
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18:23:11 <oerjan> no fucking way he could fit anything in 140 chars
18:26:42 <elliott> quintopia: http://twitter.com/FakeEliezer
18:27:30 <oerjan> is that a real picture of him?
18:28:23 <quintopia> apparently this guy ran out of funny tweets
18:29:09 <elliott> eliezer is on reddit though
18:30:42 <oerjan> actually three, the last one is an afterthought
18:34:37 <zzo38> Now I made index program with TeX.
18:35:28 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/gfMj
18:37:12 <elliott> http://lesswrong.com/lw/4g/eliezer_yudkowsky_facts/
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18:55:01 <Gregor> Gawd fluidsynth both sucks and is awesome >_>
18:55:18 <zzo38> Gregor: In what way?
18:55:27 <zzo38> Can you tell me why the first page doesn't line up?
18:55:35 <Gregor> zzo38: It's extraordinarily buggy, but when it works it's quite nice.
18:55:45 <zzo38> First page of the index.
18:57:14 <zzo38> I did asked on #LaTeX channel but they do mostly LaTeX in there (although it is supposed to be also about TeX in general?)
18:58:02 <zzo38> Would you know who else I can ask?
19:02:09 <zzo38> This program make up the index by insertion sort, please.
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19:08:21 <zzo38> Phantom__Hoover: Do you know anything about index-making in TeX?
19:12:22 <zzo38> There were a few people interested in TeXnicard and now I do not know who they are. Do you know?
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19:40:00 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/ TADA
19:40:04 <Gregor> It kinda sucks, needs some work :P
19:40:11 <Gregor> But it does just what it says on the tin.
19:40:15 <Gregor> Also, FluidSynth SUCKS.
19:40:26 <oerjan> as long as it doesn't sound like tin
19:41:43 <zzo38> Gregor: If FluidSynth is no good then use (or write) a different program.
19:42:28 <Gregor> zzo38: FluidSynth is great.
19:42:35 <Gregor> zzo38: It's just very buggy.
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19:47:12 <zzo38> Gregor: Are you able to fix it?
19:47:41 <Gregor> zzo38: I have no intention of fixing it, it's not my code and I don't have infinite time.
19:48:11 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/111772090722638/111772090722638.ogg <-- look what SONiVOX can do :P
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19:58:49 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I decided against it being 4 high; it's 3 now.
19:58:53 <elliott> Top ones were too inconvenient to access.
20:00:22 <Phantom__Hoover> (For "homework" read "bunging some variables into Mathematica and solving for them".)
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20:23:09 <oerjan> nice speculation in a reddit comment here: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/f83l6/internet_expected_to_run_out_of_ipv4_addresses_as/c1e0rvv
20:47:17 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/127001724023443/127001724023443.ogg <-- lawl, SONiVOX should not be used for strings X-D
20:47:44 <zzo38> Please I would like to know anyone interested with TeXnicard to please read the message.
20:48:59 <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> ooh I want to see ehird pole dancing <ehird> I think that would be illegal. <Vorpal> oh you are right <Vorpal> damn :/
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20:49:27 <HackEgo> 280) <Vorpal> ooh I want to see ehird pole dancing <ehird> I think that would be illegal. <Vorpal> oh you are right <Vorpal> damn :/
20:51:24 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/1286221765958/1286221765958.ogg <-- orchestral works are better, except for the string part ... bloody strings :P
20:51:50 <Gregor> (Mind you, the input .mid has no soul at all for that one :P )
20:53:02 <oerjan> always strings attached
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20:53:56 <elliott> Gregor: Do spiderturing^Wturingman^Wsuperturing with sunny-vocks
20:54:20 <Gregor> elliott: I did, the current version is using the samples from SONiVOX that improved it.
20:54:36 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/f83l6/internet_expected_to_run_out_of_ipv4_addresses_as/c1e0rvv <-- OR, IPv6 adoption will happen quickly and everything will be fine :P
20:58:00 <elliott> I should get an ipv6 tunnel sometime.
20:59:07 <elliott> Ilari: oerjan: meanwhile, reddit demonstrates how boundless its idiocy is: "If this is such a crisis, why then is it so hard to obtain personal routers for home users that support IPv6? Why is it that my ISP and the ISP I work for not provide IPv6 capability to the end user? Answer: Its not a crisis."
20:59:15 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/132011164021323/132011164021323.ogg <-- best use of SONiVOX ever
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21:04:28 <elliott> Gregor: Put the Monkey Island 1 theme in, I DARE YOU
21:05:00 <Gregor> Garbage in garbage out though./
21:05:07 <elliott> Gregor: *Brilliance in brilliance out
21:05:19 <elliott> Wasn't the Doom music done by Nine Inch Nails? I think it was.
21:05:26 <elliott> I think that's Doom music at least.
21:05:59 <elliott> Gregor: SRSLY, get the MI1 MIDI and try that.
21:06:23 <elliott> Gregor: http://imuse.mixnmojo.com/media/Midi/Monkeys/intro1.mid
21:06:29 <elliott> Also worth trying is http://imuse.mixnmojo.com/media/Midi/MONKEY1/Chuck.mid
21:06:53 <Gregor> You realize that, as a public web service, you too could do this :P
21:07:21 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/webmidi/
21:07:39 <elliott> WHAT THE FUCK IS A BANK SET WHAT IS THIS I'M DYING OF A HEART ATTACK OK I CLOSED THE PAGE AND NOW I AM OKAY
21:07:41 <elliott> Sorry, what were you saying?
21:08:55 <Gregor> elliott: It's not fast btw :P
21:09:07 <Gregor> (Takes 1/4 to 1/2 the length to convert)
21:09:19 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/13457265815880/13457265815880.ogg Ah, done
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21:09:37 <Gregor> elliott: So far, pretty awesome :P
21:10:10 <elliott> Gregor: Well, it was designed for the MT-32.
21:10:16 <elliott> So it was already pretty hi-fi :P
21:10:36 <Gregor> What is this open sine wave instrument X-D
21:11:42 <elliott> Gregor: The percussion is a bit too loud in this mix :P
21:12:50 <elliott> Gregor: What was the sine wave instrument?
21:13:19 <Gregor> I lost it, I thought I heard it somewhere in the mix, but maybe I'm just on crack *shrugs*
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21:24:44 <elliott> andrew12: You are really annoying.
21:24:53 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/13553113312348/13553113312348.ogg ... percussion is really loud in this set but it's great.
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21:25:17 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, this is pretty awesome.
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21:26:56 * elliott tries to get the Largo LeGrande theme and use that.
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21:41:21 <oerjan> elliott: aww, i was just about to give him a turing test...
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21:48:48 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/141992377926615/141992377926615.ogg Hmmm, 'snot bad.
21:49:38 <oerjan> Gregor: YOU DO A LOT OF NOSE PUNS FOR SOMEONE WHO CANNOT SMELL
21:50:50 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: You are really annoying.
21:52:45 <oerjan> Gregor: hey it's not your fault that you're a no nose sense guy
21:53:11 <Gregor> MY NOSE HAS FEELINGS TOO :(
21:53:51 <oerjan> IT'S JUST SLIGHTLY WRONG FEELINGS
21:54:00 <oerjan> basically your nose is gay
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22:13:22 <augur> Gregor: you're anosmic?
22:13:48 <Gregor> I'm hyposmic to the point that people accuse me of being anosmic :P
22:15:10 <oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair you're the one who taught us the word!
22:15:53 <Gregor> oerjan: I CHEAT AT LIFE
22:16:04 <elliott> I thought you were anosmic
22:16:19 <elliott> anosmic = NOT AT FUCKING TALLERTOIRJSYDLHKG
22:16:37 <Gregor> I am to smell as legal blindness is to vision :P
22:16:51 <oerjan> Hyper = OMG GET THOSE FLOWERS AWAY!
22:17:30 * oerjan is making an educaggerated guess there
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22:27:01 <oerjan> elliott: um, hypo- and hyper- are different prefixes
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23:40:36 <olsner> http://www.levelupstudios.com/punching-trees-gives-me-wood
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23:58:45 <quintopia> shit. someone remind me how to mv a non-empty folder in one command
00:00:04 <quintopia> mv: cannot move `coppelius/' to `../coppelius': Directory not empty
00:00:18 <quintopia> it doesn't say which directory is not empty!
00:00:26 <elliott> quintopia: obviously the latter :)
00:00:30 <elliott> that message is too specific!
00:00:37 <elliott> quintopia: it should just say "already exists" tv
00:01:02 <elliott> a fine example of when trying to be too user-friendly backfires
00:02:06 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/178871922613507/178871922613507.ogg SONiVOX does brass A-OK
00:06:01 <oerjan> elliott: except it probably works if the target exists and _is_ empty
00:06:28 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, but a slightly incorrect but vastly more useful message is better
00:06:38 <elliott> imo "mv foo ../foo" should make ../foo/foo if ../foo exists
00:06:47 <elliott> although i don't know what command quintopia used
00:07:29 <oerjan> now what if ../foo/foo already exists? >:)
00:14:12 <elliott> hmm can rsync synchronise a directory in one file?
00:14:19 <elliott> i guess that's just called tar
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00:38:06 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:38:12 <Gregor> Whoops, that's fungot ...'
00:38:13 <fungot> Gregor: i never said mine was turing complete, it's actually some neat magic. i think lmfs used host names too, but that
00:38:15 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:39:48 <pikhq> 2 more Matrix sequels coming.
00:40:20 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/webmidi/ looka the cool web service I made!
00:40:25 <elliott> The school mentioned does not exist, no appearance was made at the real similarly-named school.
00:40:27 <Sgeo> I've seen the sequels and the latter part of the original
00:40:36 <elliott> Sgeo: You should just kill yourself.
00:40:38 <pikhq> elliott: Oh. Thank God.
00:40:43 <elliott> You will never be able to enjoy the original movie.
00:40:49 <elliott> Oh wait Sgeo probably loved the sequels.
00:41:11 <pikhq> elliott: I will give the sequels this: definitely better than the Star Wars prequels.
00:41:19 <quintopia> we're talking about the fact they've decided to make sequels to the Matrix
00:41:39 <pikhq> They don't make you want to murder the Wachowski brothers, just beat a bit of sense into them.
00:42:17 <pikhq> "Psuedo-philosophical wanking is *not* how you follow up a decent action film, dammit."
00:42:19 <elliott> If we're going for unsubstantiated rumours, shouldn't you say "Wachowski siblings". :p
00:42:43 * Sgeo decides to abuse Gregor
00:42:45 <Sgeo> 's web service
00:43:00 <quintopia> gregor: make a webservice that converts strings to short bf code that generates those strings. i couldn't find one, and it's such an obvious tool to have.
00:43:02 <elliott> To play ALL OF HIS FAVOURITE MIDIS
00:43:05 <elliott> "It sounds too good!!!!!!"
00:43:22 <elliott> !bf_txtgen QUINTOPIA IS FA
00:43:23 <elliott> !bf_txtgen QUINTOPIA IS FAG
00:43:29 <Sgeo> Even I wrote such a tool
00:43:31 <Gregor> (!bf_txtgen is kinda slow though :P )
00:43:39 <Sgeo> Then again, my tool is crappier than bf_txtgen
00:43:39 <pikhq> elliott: As Larry still goes by "Larry" and claims to be male, they're still brothers...
00:43:42 <quintopia> how many newlines can i put in it?
00:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: I said "unsubstantiated rumours". :p
00:43:53 <elliott> quintopia: get the tool itself
00:44:04 <EgoBot> 140 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++>+++++>++<<<<-]>---.>+.>+++.<<---.>-.<+.+.>>.--------.>++++.<++++++++.<-.>>.<---.-----.>----------------------. [883]
00:44:05 <EgoBot> 143 +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++>++>++++++<<<<-]>>+++.++++.------------.>>.++++++.-----.+.<<.<.>>++++++.<.>>+++.<.<---.<.>+.>----------------------. [368]
00:44:05 <EgoBot> 62 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>+><<<<-]>.---.>+++..--------.>--. [438]
00:44:07 <quintopia> elliott: how can i do that without downloading and compiling something?
00:44:18 <elliott> quintopia: what have you got against compiling
00:44:22 <elliott> specifically javac in this case
00:44:22 <Sgeo> Gregor, is SONiVOX better than Unison?
00:44:37 <elliott> quintopia: well sucks to be you then
00:44:40 <pikhq> elliott: Given the various claims, though, I get the *feeling* that he enjoys crossdressing. Of course, even that is somewhat unsubstantiated.
00:44:42 <elliott> #esoteric is not your personal army of... text generators.
00:44:50 <pikhq> (and quite different from being transgendered, besides)
00:44:58 <Gregor> Sgeo: Haven't tried Unison, will give it a shot.
00:44:59 <quintopia> yes. it does suck for me. you assholes.
00:45:01 <Sgeo> quintopia, there's a text generator somewhere in my PSOX stuff
00:45:20 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's much, much bigger, that's for sure.
00:45:37 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/187322163012/187322163012.ogg HOLY FUCK YES (except the percussion is still way too loud)
00:46:20 <elliott> Gregor: Do the Onerously Uptight Toccata or whatever that really good one was from algorhythms
00:46:22 <Sgeo> It sounds like an AW song
00:46:25 <Gregor> elliott: Zeal from Chrono Trigger.
00:46:39 <Sgeo> No, a BYOND song
00:46:40 <elliott> I should really get around to actually playing Chrono Trigger sometime >__>
00:46:54 <elliott> quintopia do you need minecraft i need counsel
00:47:02 <Sgeo> Gregor, now find which one of my nonusefullynamed MIDIs that is
00:47:30 <elliott> Sgeo is the only person on earth who keeps MIDIs for nostalgia purposes.
00:47:51 <elliott> Gregor: You should make it automatically turn down percussion or something :P
00:48:07 <Gregor> elliott: 'snot that easy >_>
00:48:28 <Gregor> elliott: And once it gets into the song, I kinda like having the crazy-loud clacker :P
00:48:56 <elliott> Gregor: To be perfectly honest, the way the percussion sounds and echoes against the sparse background just makes me think of In The Air Tonight :P
00:49:06 <elliott> I know that's completely illogical.
00:49:27 <Gregor> elliott: I finally found a workaround for many of FluidSynth's bugs though ... if I give it a 2-second MIDI file with no audible notes before the actual MIDI file, then it applies all its bugs and bullshit to that one instead :P
00:49:48 <Sgeo> What are FS's bugs?
00:50:07 <elliott> "PLEASE ENUMERATE ALL THE BUGS OF THIS BUGGY PIECE OF SOFTWARE FOR ME:"
00:50:14 <elliott> I swear Sgeo acts like a non-programmer.
00:50:56 <Sgeo> Gregor, I love you http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/187671562520370/187671562520370.ogg
00:51:08 <Gregor> # fluidsynth's broken options:
00:51:08 <Gregor> # -i (no shell): Crashes 99% of the time
00:51:08 <Gregor> # -F (fast render): Doesn't map programs properly
00:51:08 <Gregor> # MIDI files: doesn't work with -f
00:51:08 <Gregor> # SF2 files: doesn't allow loading with an offset, so will clobber each other
00:51:26 <elliott> Gregor: Sgeo is proposing to you.
00:51:35 <elliott> Sgeo: Wow that is the worst song I have ever heard.
00:51:38 <Gregor> elliott: I think he's proposing to an ogg file.
00:51:42 <quintopia> ^bf ++++++++++.>+++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++>+++++>++<<<<-]>>+++++.++.>--.<++++.---------.++++++.>--.>++.+++.<<++++++++++++++++++.<-----.----.+++++.>.<--.>++++.------.>>---.<-------------.++++++++++++++++++++
00:51:47 <Gregor> elliott: But the soundfont is awesome ;)
00:52:58 * Sgeo queues another file
00:53:07 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just download SONiVOX
00:54:51 <Gregor> elliott: It is awesome http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/19004299946313/19004299946313.ogg
00:54:58 <elliott> Gregor: The Algorhythms one?
00:55:16 <elliott> Gregor: Oh god this is sex.
00:55:29 <elliott> LINK ME TO ALGORHYTHMS AGAIN
00:55:37 <Gregor> http://codu.org/algorhythms/
00:56:15 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what being blind has to do with soundfonts
00:56:26 <elliott> Gregor: I love 28-29s in Tocatta thingy whatever it's called.
00:56:32 <elliott> Gregor: When everything stops for a split second :P
00:56:42 <Gregor> elliott: 55ish is the best
00:57:05 <Sgeo> Why does http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/1917664324275/1917664324275.ogg seem broken?
00:57:28 <elliott> http://codu.org/algorhythms/?list
00:57:35 <Gregor> Sgeo: If it can't convert it within 2 minutes CPU time, it kills it and ends up fucky.
00:57:39 <elliott> Gregor: Are the older ones on the old Masterpieces site or something?
00:57:47 <elliott> Ooh, I wanna hear the broken!
00:57:49 <Gregor> elliott: If you did it before I split Algorhythms from Masterpiece--- yeah
00:57:54 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/
00:57:58 <GreaseMonkey> uh, for algorhythms, i have deprecation warnings all over my midi
00:58:21 <elliott> HOW CAN MIDI GET DEPRECATED
00:59:02 <elliott> Gregor: Deprecated: Function split() is deprecated in
00:59:09 <elliott> Gregor: Can you just... replace that :P
00:59:23 <elliott> "This function has been DEPRECATED as of PHP 5.3.0. Relying on this feature is highly discouraged.
00:59:30 <elliott> Gregor: Use preg_split apparently.
00:59:54 <quintopia> a free beer to anyone who can name this tune: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/19391356931184/19391356931184.ogg
01:00:14 <elliott> Gregor: lib/midi.php to be exact
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01:02:35 <Gregor> I recognize that SO HARD ...
01:02:55 <Gregor> I only listened to the first 9 seconds X_X
01:03:28 <Gregor> quintopia: Where's my beer.
01:03:28 <Sgeo> Gregor, are you a character in Superosity?
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01:03:51 <Gregor> Sgeo: I'm a character in SuperTuring.
01:03:52 <quintopia> gregor: i'll buy it next time we meet in person, wherever that shall be
01:04:15 <Gregor> elliott: Oh sorry, got distracted, uploading now :P
01:04:24 <elliott> Gregor: lol@not using vi on the server
01:04:43 <Gregor> I have hg repos that push themselves into /var/www :P
01:05:07 <elliott> Gregor: Mr. Fancy "Scared of Work" Pants
01:07:16 <quintopia> free beer to anyone besides Gregor who can name this one: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/19620121792712/19620121792712.ogg
01:08:04 <elliott> ha ha now you have to buy a 15 year old beer
01:08:06 <Gregor> Which piano is this? SONiVOX?
01:08:25 <elliott> I don't like the sound of this rendition much :P
01:08:34 <elliott> Whatever you made the real one with is better.
01:08:53 <pikhq> Cause "Opus 13" is probably a pretty common name.
01:09:08 <Gregor> pikhq: That's what I named my daughter.
01:09:09 <pikhq> Say, anyone who uses opus numbers and has had at least 13 of them. Or sucks at counting. :P
01:09:13 <Gregor> quintopia: Movement 2 is Finale
01:09:14 <elliott> quintopia: Movement 2 is Finale in Three.
01:09:27 <elliott> It's "in Three" because Gregor doesn't understand counting.
01:09:38 <elliott> Gregor: STATUS_DONE but the ogg seems "invalid". I think what happened is it got /queued/ for two minutes, but not actually processed.
01:11:01 <elliott> Gregor: D: It's consistently doing it.
01:11:04 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/198362294728300/
01:11:45 <Ilari> Haha... Lagerholm predicting April (that was back in November, before the surprise AFRINIC and RIPE allocations)...
01:11:50 <elliott> Gregor: It has like 70 channels :P
01:12:04 <elliott> But Opus 14 (aka SuperTuring) is better.
01:12:30 <elliott> Srsly Gregor, you must rename SuperTuring to Opus 14 :P
01:12:44 <Gregor> Good thing I can write a better work in two hours than three months :P
01:12:53 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, definitely, you MUST rename it.
01:12:55 <elliott> Ask pikhq, he will concur.
01:13:00 <elliott> And he is the arbitrator of truth.
01:13:13 <Gregor> pikhq: Congrats, you're the arbitrator of truth.
01:13:15 <quintopia> gregor: cf. "top 40 formula nailed in 8 hours"
01:13:35 <elliott> quintopia: Is that that video thing? If so, I actually liked the result :P
01:13:37 <elliott> Proof that I have no taste.
01:14:05 <elliott> Gregor: Yah, it did the broken ogg thing on my third try too.
01:14:10 <elliott> I conclude that you need to make it less pitiful.
01:14:30 <elliott> Gregor: Or, what happens if sonivox is missing an instrument?
01:14:35 <elliott> Maybe it's just too hardcore.
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01:15:19 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not sure. If it's missing /every/ instrument, it would cause that.
01:15:27 <elliott> Gregor: I very much doubt that :P
01:15:42 <Gregor> It's a full GM set ...
01:15:54 <elliott> That is misses all, I mean.
01:15:59 <elliott> Gregor: But bear in mind that this thing has like 11 tracks :P
01:16:25 <Gregor> Mmmmm, it might not work for >16 tracks.
01:18:47 <elliott> Gregor: Is it really that bad?
01:19:10 <Gregor> Yet the sound it produces is so beautiful.
01:19:17 <elliott> So anyway, how do I play a midi on Linux the plain boring way.
01:19:57 <elliott> Gregor: The MIDI in question is Onerous Cake-Eating Festival Disallowment Barricade, BTW.
01:20:06 <elliott> Which will ONLY BE BETTER with that fancy soundfont.
01:20:09 <Gregor> FluidSynth only turns to hell once you start trying to generate a .wav
01:20:32 <elliott> Gregor: But it doesn't work for >16 channels :P
01:21:12 <elliott> Timidity works ... and reminds me that this track only sounded great with Apple's MIDI sounds.
01:21:29 <elliott> Gregor: Can you believe this stuff is from 2009?
01:21:42 <quintopia> apple's midi sucks, but not as bad as everyone else's. why?
01:22:10 <Gregor> Yeah, they actually put money into it is all. They bought the license to a decent soundfont.
01:22:18 <elliott> --2011-01-25 01:31:48-- http://filebin.ca/wojhum/OnerousCake-EatingFestivalDisallowmentBarricade.mp3
01:22:19 <elliott> Resolving filebin.ca... 208.68.18.109
01:22:19 <elliott> Connecting to filebin.ca|208.68.18.109|:80... connected.
01:22:19 <elliott> HTTP request sent, awaiting response...
01:22:19 <elliott> C'mon... please exist, file...
01:23:02 <elliott> http://filebin.ca/bmdpxh/RidiculouslyAbsentToccata.mp3 too
01:24:08 <elliott> Gregor: THE FILES AREN'T LOADING PANIC
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01:26:41 <Gregor> elliott: A decent free GM soundfont.
01:26:48 <elliott> Gregor: But not as good as sonivox; right :P
01:26:52 <elliott> Is gregors actually any good for random midi files?
01:27:05 <Gregor> elliott: For random MIDI files, it's Chorium.
01:27:19 <elliott> fluidsynth: warning: Preset "Tremolo Strings": Some invalid generators were discarded
01:27:19 <elliott> fluidsynth: warning: Preset "Perc Organ": Some invalid generators were discarded
01:27:19 <elliott> fluidsynth: warning: Preset "SciFi": Some invalid generators were discarded
01:27:19 <elliott> fluidsynth: warning: Instrument "Reverse Cymbal": Some invalid generators were discarded
01:27:19 <elliott> fluidsynth: warning: Instrument "Nylon Guitar ": Some invalid generators were discarded
01:27:30 <elliott> Gregor: Didn't you put the MI1 theme through Sonivox?
01:28:09 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, fluidsynth likes to complain :P
01:28:18 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Didn't you put the MI1 theme through Sonivox?
01:28:18 <elliott> <elliott> Or was that Chorium?
01:28:41 <Gregor> Apparently we're lagged to hell, yes :P
01:28:58 <Gregor> Anyway, no, I never put the MI1 theme through anything.
01:28:59 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Didn't you put the MI1 theme through Sonivox?
01:28:59 <elliott> <elliott> <elliott> Or was that Chorium?
01:29:18 <Gregor> Oh, I thought you meant something else :P
01:29:39 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20221630415266/20221630415266.ogg This might just be amazing.
01:30:05 <elliott> Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
01:31:20 <Gregor> It's pretty alright :P
01:31:43 <elliott> Gregor: I think this is better than the MT-32 version of the same, but tbh MI2 wasn't so good on MT-32, compared to Adlib :P
01:32:34 <elliott> The campfire bit at the end is great too.
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01:33:47 <elliott> Now I MUST get the Largo LeGrande theme going.
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01:36:07 <elliott> The stabbing largo theme will HAVE TO DO
01:37:12 <elliott> Gregor: This is win, btw :P
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01:40:34 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAGEZnFVTos REAL-TIME PATH TRACING
01:41:17 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/203421205018158/203421205018158.ogg YESSSSSSSSS
01:41:31 <elliott> Gregor: This one did not turn out so well: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/204491201820231/204491201820231.ogg :(
01:41:34 <elliott> But it has multiple parts.
01:41:39 <elliott> So I'm hangin' on to see if it gets better.
01:41:50 <elliott> Gregor: The volumes are just a bit out of whack I think.
01:41:54 <elliott> Compared to "standard" MIDI.
01:42:03 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, that's an understatement.
01:42:45 <elliott> Yeah this has not turned out well at all :(
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01:44:01 <elliott> Gregor: What is that YESS one, I'm gonna listen in a second.
01:44:47 <Gregor> elliott: It's the ending to SMB2.
01:45:07 <elliott> Gregor: IT'S GREAT BEING IN THE 90S
01:47:24 <elliott> Gregor: Are you sure this is legal :P
01:47:28 <elliott> fluidsynth: warning: Failed to pin the sample data to RAM; swapping is possible.
01:47:35 <Gregor> elliott: Legal enough :)
01:47:36 <elliott> Gregor: Wow, chorium is so much faster.
01:47:44 <Gregor> elliott: Chorium is 1/10th the size.
01:47:47 <elliott> Copyright (C) 2000-2009 Peter Hanappe and others.
01:47:47 <elliott> Distributed under the LGPL license.
01:47:47 <elliott> SoundFont(R) is a registered trademark of E-mu Systems, Inc.
01:47:47 <elliott> fluid_ostream_printf: buffer overflowfluid_ostream_printf: buffer overflowRendering audio to file '/tmp/206163043921772.wav'..
01:47:52 <elliott> Gregor: That's why Onerous doesn't work.
01:47:55 <elliott> Because FluidSynth is a piece of shit.
01:47:59 <Gregor> Doesn't look broken to me ...
01:48:16 <elliott> Gregor: Onerous, not chorium.
01:48:16 <Gregor> The "buffer overflow" is always output X_X
01:48:26 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/206163043921772/ <-- does this look non-broken to you?
01:48:38 <Gregor> Nonono, I'm sure it's broken.
01:48:41 <Sgeo> elliott, two O'Brien Must Suffer episodes in the same season?
01:48:43 <Gregor> But the "buffer overflow" is unrelated.
01:48:58 <elliott> Gregor: Can you pass --handle-more-channels-please.
01:49:47 <elliott> "They should make a heist film where a group of thieves infiltrate the facility and slightly change the mass of the original prototype kilogram as well as its sister copies, thereby redefining the kilogram. Months later, chaos ensues as cars start crashing, planes fall from the sky, the stock market plummets, and overly self conscious women all over the world go crazy over their weight, thus fulfilling the 2012 doomsday prophecy"
01:49:51 <elliott> THIS WOULD BE THE BEST FILM EVER.
01:50:21 <quintopia> elliott: you should write your own shell that parses anomalous flags into english and rewrites and recompiles programs to make those flags work
01:50:27 <Gregor> With Chorium first plzkthx
01:50:33 <elliott> quintopia: You should write it for me.
01:50:44 <Gregor> Which apparently does ... something.
01:51:12 <elliott> $ sh --that-fixes-programs-based-on-unknown-flags
01:51:42 <Gregor> elliott: Wait to see whether it works first :P
01:51:53 <elliott> Gregor: I'm doing it with chlorine now.
01:52:11 <quintopia> elliott: now you just have to call it from within itself so that it creates itself so that it exists so that you can call it from within itself. can do?
01:52:39 <Gregor> This soundfont seriously fucking rocks.
01:52:45 <Gregor> And I'm glad that this is probably legal maybe.
01:52:58 <elliott> Gregor: I dunno... I think it's legal to render any MIDI someone gives you because YOU'RE doing it.
01:53:12 <elliott> Gregor: But I think that legally, you're essentially offering access to the copyrighted material to anyone, which isn't allowed :P
01:53:14 <Gregor> Yeah, I haven't given them the soundfont.
01:53:31 <Gregor> elliott: But I'm not, you couldn't reproduce the soundfont with this service.
01:53:36 <elliott> Gregor: It's kinda like "Yeah, I'll follow these instructions in Photoshop for you" vs. "OK, here's a world-accessible VNC to Photoshop."
01:53:47 <elliott> You can't produce photoshop.exe on disk with the latter, but it sure as hell isn't legal-sounding.
01:53:52 <elliott> "For personal use only" and whatnot.
01:53:58 <Gregor> elliott: Except that there ARE companies that offer VNC(ish) to programs, and rent it out.
01:53:58 <elliott> Not that anyone gives a shit, of course :P
01:54:16 <Gregor> Also, SONiVOX is too cool to actually specify licensing terms.
01:54:16 <elliott> Gregor: Nope, same result.
01:54:24 <Gregor> elliott: Then 'snot gonna work.
01:54:45 <Gregor> elliott: -K actually just sets the max channels :P
01:54:53 <elliott> Gregor: MAYBE IT NEEDS MORE HEADROOM
01:55:03 <Gregor> elliott: Maybe your mom needs more headroom.
01:55:14 <elliott> I thought you were above your mom jokes.
01:55:41 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20681251887557/20681251887557.ogg ;; this is pretty good
01:55:47 <Gregor> ... I make "your mom" jokes on an almost-constant basis.
01:55:59 * pikhq really wonders if the "Logic" course (offered in the philosophy department) will end up actually being worthwhile...
01:56:04 <pikhq> Or if it ends up just being an easy A.
01:56:16 <Gregor> These FLACs are fucking huge ... maybe I should just not generate the FLAC.
01:56:21 <Gregor> Or maybe I should make it optional.
01:56:32 <elliott> fcont = fcont[fcont.find('\n')+1:]
01:56:45 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but you used to be all about YOUR FACE, not YOUR MOM.
01:56:54 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah well, your mom, she bangs.
01:57:04 <elliott> Gregor: Also, just disable the FLAC ... if someone wants it they can ask you to do it manually :P
01:57:10 <elliott> Gregor: Or at least do the oggs first.
01:58:20 <elliott> return u"<pre>%s</pre>" % node.content
01:58:26 <elliott> Gregor: You forgot to preformat the result of the program.
01:59:01 <Gregor> elliott: I intentionally didn't.
01:59:09 <elliott> Gregor: Seems a bit weird :P
01:59:18 <elliott> Also, does Hackiki whitelist all the HTML or whatever at a high level?
01:59:35 <elliott> Gregor: <script>evil</script> ... just sayin'
01:59:38 <Gregor> That's a goal I gave up on on Hackiki day 1.
02:00:11 <elliott> Gregor: So, er, basically, "don't browse a popular Hackiki if I value my browser" :P
02:00:26 <elliott> There are plenty of APIs that make it easy to sanitise HTML, but whatever.
02:00:37 <elliott> I think that does HTML, but whatever.
02:00:57 <Gregor> Sanitizing JS is a joke, and remember, all the wiki software is IN THE WIKI, so if you want it to have any features at all, you have to let through arbitrary HTML+JS
02:01:07 <elliott> Gregor: HTML sure, JS I don't really see why.
02:01:28 <Gregor> For wikis that have JavaScript ...
02:01:44 <elliott> Gregor: What kind of wiki uses JS to show a page?
02:01:53 <Gregor> Even wikipedia has JS on its main page now.
02:02:03 <Gregor> Err, article view page that is.
02:02:13 <elliott> Gregor: Sure, but it's all trivial shit and it works ~the same without it.
02:02:19 <elliott> Like TOC collapsing and stuff.
02:02:41 <Gregor> WhyTF are you looking at Hackiki anyway?
02:02:49 <pikhq> elliott: Allowing JS on Hackiki is no worse than allowing JS on the web in general.
02:03:11 <elliott> Gregor: Perverse curiosity, plus the nagging feeling that there's a good idea trying to escape :P
02:03:17 <pikhq> elliott: Except that it's *slightly* easier for someone to be an asshat on a wiki.
02:03:28 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but at least a random webpage doesn't _inspire_ morons to go "Hey, I can put script tags in here!".
02:03:39 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes it does.
02:03:55 <elliott> pikhq: No ... no it doesn't. "Run any program!" -> Edit this -> HTML -> "IMA PUT <SCRIPT> IN"
02:04:02 <elliott> That is a problem rather unique to Hackiki :P
02:04:43 <pikhq> elliott: "Run any program!" → edit this → perl → "Imma fork while fork!"
02:05:01 <elliott> pikhq: I don't see the connection. That Perl program doesn't run when I click a link.
02:05:17 <pikhq> elliott: It runs *on the server*, though.
02:05:20 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/21156213132983/21156213132983.ogg YESSSSSSSSSSS
02:05:57 <Gregor> elliott: ... U SUCK AT RPG
02:06:05 <Gregor> elliott: It's the chocobo theme!
02:06:25 <pikhq> Gregor: That is a very odd rendition of "x de Chocobo".
02:06:50 <Gregor> pikhq: It's "Samba de Chocobo", it was the first result for "chocobo" on vgmusic.com under SNES->F :P
02:07:13 <pikhq> Ah, right, my least favorite rendition of the Chocobo theme.
02:07:14 <Gregor> pikhq: And that's more or less what it sounds like in-game, only more awesome.
02:07:29 <pikhq> ... No, wait, FFXIII.
02:07:45 <elliott> http://littleitaly.fortunecity.com/vatican/791/midi.htm <3
02:08:01 <elliott> "Is that applause or is that a laugh track?"
02:08:13 <elliott> KashmirLed ZeppelinWe dare you to listen to all 9 minutes!
02:09:54 * pikhq is fairly partial to Swing de Chocobo. Or "tiȳokohònotêma", in its NES glory...
02:10:33 <elliott> Gregor: Convince me not to feed Hit Me Baby One More Time, the MIDI rendition, into this.
02:10:43 <elliott> Wait. What happens with non-piano ones on the steinway one?
02:10:54 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/21262479113464/21262479113464.ogg
02:11:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Which one is *that*‽
02:11:49 <Gregor> It claims to be "Baroque de Chocobo" ... the only thing Baroque about it though is that it sucks.
02:12:08 <pikhq> Definitely not Uematsu's work.
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02:13:39 <Gregor> elliott: So have you put Hit Me Baby One More Time through webmidi yet? :P
02:13:56 <elliott> Gregor: You have not convinced me not to yet, so I WILL
02:14:09 <elliott> <elliott> Wait. What happens with non-piano ones on the steinway one?
02:14:34 <quintopia> i should put the cheers theme in the steinway on
02:14:43 <Gregor> elliott: They become pianos.
02:15:23 <elliott> Prepare for Hit Me Baby One More Piano
02:15:23 <Gregor> elliott: Well don't do THAT to Hit Me Baby :P
02:15:46 <quintopia> here tis: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/213811375219097/213811375219097.ogg
02:15:49 <elliott> Gregor: Remember that that site is for bad MIDIs of even GOOD songs
02:15:54 <elliott> So this is going to be the worst of the worst :P
02:16:18 <Gregor> quintopia: It's the best.
02:16:36 <Gregor> quintopia: Also, you are obsessed with TV :P
02:16:50 <Gregor> quintopia: And this MIDI sucks :P
02:17:02 <Gregor> It's the sheet music, with no dynamics. Yay.
02:17:04 <quintopia> Gregor: just shit i had randomly lying around
02:18:01 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/214051887116122/214051887116122.ogg
02:18:20 <Gregor> elliott: I'm afraid D-8
02:18:41 <quintopia> most of my tracked files are in .it or .xm
02:19:00 <quintopia> i have all the songs from jazz jackrabbit 2 in .s3m
02:19:13 <elliott> Gregor: I have never heard anything worse :P
02:20:19 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/21447310216470/21447310216470.ogg Rendered in real MIDI, I've actually heard much worse. It's pretty bad though :P
02:20:32 <elliott> ARE YOU LISTENING TO THE PIANO ONE
02:20:48 <Gregor> I listened to a bit of it :P
02:21:43 <Gregor> On the piano I love the little "plucks" of the piano in the background :P
02:22:41 <elliott> Gregor: I want to hear this played on real pianos.
02:24:54 <elliott> quintopia: the piano-only one?
02:25:46 <quintopia> i want to hear the conlon nancarrow version
02:26:24 <Gregor> I can't think of any more awesome video game music :P
02:27:18 <elliott> Gregor: Think it'll render an 8 minute masterpiece in the time allotted?
02:27:22 <elliott> If not, please specialcase job 21595134129605.
02:27:36 <Gregor> So long as it's <=16 tracks, probably :P
02:28:22 <pikhq> Gregor: "Final Fantasy".
02:28:37 <elliott> That will be Gregor's final midi fantasy HURHURHURHURHURHR
02:28:40 <Gregor> pikhq: MORE SPECIFIC PLZ
02:28:49 <pikhq> Gregor: That's the name of it.
02:28:58 <pikhq> Gregor: "Final Fantasy", by Nobuo Uematsu.
02:29:17 <elliott> He means the main title Gregor
02:29:20 <elliott> pikhq is just a PRETENTIOUS FAG
02:29:30 <pikhq> Though in FFI it was known as "Prologue".
02:31:34 <elliott> Gregor: I only had ten tracks and it gave up.
02:31:41 <elliott> Also no overflow warning :P
02:31:48 <Gregor> elliott: YOUR MOM GAVE UP
02:32:10 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/21595134129605/21595134129605.mid I think we can both agree that this needs to be rendered with SONiVOX.
02:33:50 <Gregor> Checking why it failed ...
02:34:00 <elliott> See, you realise how amazing it is.
02:34:57 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/21797299108804/21797299108804.ogg JUST FOR YOU
02:35:21 <pikhq> Gregor: That's Prelude.
02:35:23 <Gregor> The high bits on the harp are REALLY HARSH with the harp alone >_>
02:35:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Not "Final Fantasy".
02:35:35 <Gregor> lawl, I totes forgot what I was doing :P
02:36:16 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah highs kill in sonivox.
02:36:29 <Gregor> elliott: It's still trying to render ... maybe?
02:36:38 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, you restarted it?
02:36:42 <elliott> It was STATUS_DONE before.
02:36:47 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I'm watching the output here.
02:37:08 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_toothpick_syndrome X-D
02:37:34 <Sgeo> elliott, "The Jem'Hadar"
02:37:36 <Gregor> pikhq: Which Final Fantasy should I try to get Prologue from? :P
02:38:06 <Gregor> elliott: Yup, straight up time limit. And I've doubled the time limit twice, so screw you :P
02:38:19 <elliott> Gregor: Can't you just run this one specially?
02:38:21 * quintopia watches piano britney spears go viral
02:38:24 <elliott> Gregor: It will really be amazing :P
02:38:27 <pikhq> Gregor: It's pretty much the same in all the games it's been in.
02:38:38 <elliott> Gregor: I'm listening to it locally and it's just the best.
02:39:37 <pikhq> And yes, I *do* have all the Final Fantasy soundtracks, and so have confirmed that. :P
02:41:27 <Gregor> elliott: Fine, I'm doing it on MY OWN MACHINE.
02:41:45 <elliott> Gregor: With SONiVOX, mind you, not that LOW-CLASS CLAPTRAP.
02:42:56 <quintopia> with regard to piano britney spears: < thegrumples> @quintopia why is this playing on my computer. why has this not always been playing on my computer
02:43:22 <Gregor> quintopia: Y'know that URL will disappear in two days :P
02:43:31 <elliott> quintopia: Excuse me, you have CREDITED ME, RIGHT?
02:43:41 <quintopia> elliott: no one has asked me to yet
02:43:54 <elliott> AND REHOST IT SOMEWHERE PERMANENT
02:44:14 <elliott> How do I figure out who's responded to that twat, I can't figure it out :P
02:44:31 <elliott> http://twitter.com/#search?q=%40quintopia
02:44:45 <elliott> IT'S MISSING THAT ONE YOU QUOTED
02:45:01 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/21878737724151/21878737724151.ogg
02:45:14 <elliott> quintopia: I have no http server right now :P
02:45:20 <quintopia> GREGOR: CAN YOU JUST MAKE IT SO THAT ONE NEVER DELETES KTHX
02:45:25 <elliott> BUT SRSLY JUST CREDIT ME FOR HAVING THE *INSPIRATION*
02:45:44 <Gregor> quintopia: MIRROR IT URSELF ... AND CREDIT ELLIOTT FOR RUINING EARTH
02:46:06 <elliott> Gregor: Just add an if to the purger :P
02:46:15 <quintopia> but gregor! i already linked your copy! it is too late! it is already viral! you must preserve the madness!
02:46:20 <Gregor> elliott: I would just have to remove the at job, but still :P
02:46:33 <elliott> Gregor: It's a cultural ... icon? Item.
02:46:58 <elliott> It just sounds so... emotiona
02:47:01 <pikhq> Gregor: That comes out pretty lame in MIDI.
02:47:04 <elliott> sushimustwrite @ana_marai @quintopia Because it's on piano! Piano makes everything better.
02:47:05 <pikhq> Gregor: And is that cowbell?
02:47:21 <elliott> Gregor: Rendered my 8-minute masterpiece locally yet? :P
02:48:14 <quintopia> gregor: preserved the cultural icon for posterity yet?
02:48:30 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Rendered my 8-minute masterpiece locally yet? :P
02:48:32 <elliott> Also, seriously, please do :(
02:48:38 <elliott> quintopia: *MY cultural icon
02:50:12 <Gregor> elliott: This ogg is enormous :P
02:54:04 <Gregor> elliott: Is your mom uploaded yet?
02:54:48 <Gregor> elliott: It's stalling out every three seconds while uploading :P
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02:57:44 <elliott> Gregor: UPLOADED YERTHSJDLGKFMC
02:58:33 <elliott> quintopia: you have to tweet this one too
03:00:28 <quintopia> gregor: preserve the cultural icon or the beer deal is off >:(
03:00:44 <Gregor> quintopia: I don't drink :P
03:01:10 <elliott> quintopia: *the Moxie deal
03:02:05 <Gregor> quintopia: Make it a Moxie and I'll preserve it :P
03:02:27 <Gregor> What was the gen #? :P
03:02:55 <quintopia> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/214051887116122/214051887116122.ogg
03:02:59 <elliott> Gregor: GOGOGO AND ALSO FINISH THE UPLOAD
03:03:21 <Gregor> quintopia: WTF, surely you jest.
03:03:31 <elliott> Hmm, Moxie is probably horrible, since Gregor can't smell.
03:03:37 <elliott> It probably smells of pain.
03:04:13 <elliott> [[Through extensive advertising, the neologism "moxie" has entered popular American usage with the meaning "courage, daring, and energy,"[8][9] as in "This guy's got moxie!"]]
03:04:16 <elliott> ..not the other way around?
03:05:20 <elliott> Presevred, but UPLOADEDE?DE{?
03:05:34 <Gregor> elliott: It's at 100%, except not 8-D
03:05:43 <elliott> I hope it sounds like rape.
03:05:45 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/22160750729636/22160750729636.ogg Listen to this while you wait.
03:06:07 <elliott> Is that Chrono Trigger... I think so ... I have noooo idea :P
03:06:21 <Gregor> Other than the saxophone (?), that sounds friggin' awesome.
03:06:36 <Gregor> And the sax is just too quiet.
03:06:48 <elliott> It sounds that weird in the game too doesn't it.
03:08:42 * elliott tries to decipher http://www.1010.co.uk/org/ again
03:08:52 <elliott> I swear there's something cool in here but it's buried in zany.
03:10:38 <elliott> im going to kill gregor of i dont get my ear pina
03:10:39 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/21595134129605.ogg
03:10:55 <elliott> Gregor: Oh wow... it's deliciously awful.
03:11:02 <elliott> quintopia: Tweet this now: "more on the same theme: http://codu.org/tmp/21595134129605.ogg"
03:11:31 <elliott> Anticipate "@quintopia IT SOUNDS ALL WEIRD WHAT'S THE CORRECT LINK"
03:11:39 <elliott> quintopia: YOU ARE FOR THE FEW SECONDS IT TAKES TO COPY-PASTE THAT
03:11:48 <elliott> Gregor: Oh wow, it is so glorious ...
03:12:00 <quintopia> this chrono trigger thing is awesome still
03:12:48 <elliott> TO ALL FINNS: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f87p6/what_is_your_most_controversial_opinion/c1e0u3w?context=2
03:13:42 <elliott> quintopia: tweet it ggod damn
03:14:12 <quintopia> it sounds like HPSCHD but with more instruments
03:15:08 <quintopia> it really isn't all that bad if you're used to this kind of thing :P
03:15:16 <quintopia> and i am used to this kind of thing :P
03:15:39 <elliott> i want to get my viral std all around the interwebs
03:15:53 <quintopia> everyone will just go wtf and forget about it
03:16:08 <quintopia> a really weird one like balley mechanique
03:16:33 * elliott blinks... I think I just discovered cpressey
03:16:34 <quintopia> was this just a bunch of keymashing?
03:16:39 <elliott> but probably not but ... what
03:16:47 * Gregor goes back to listening to SuperTuring on loop :P
03:16:49 <elliott> quintopia: in fact all the tracks have the same general structure
03:17:48 <elliott> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309&cpage=1#comment-1382 <-- url links to a catseye language
03:17:52 <elliott> but it might just be a random url
03:18:07 <quintopia> you are george antheil crossed with john cage
03:18:12 <quintopia> see http://www.zappinternet.com/video/WaDtPiyPep/Fernand-Leger-Ballet-mecanique-1924
03:18:19 <elliott> quintopia: i hope you listen to all of this
03:18:45 <quintopia> elliott: only if you listen to something of mine :D
03:18:54 <elliott> quintopia: the ending is the best part of mine btw
03:19:15 <elliott> <quintopia> see http://www.zappinternet.com/video/WaDtPiyPep/Fernand-Leger-Ballet-mecanique-1924 <-- sry, no flash, got a youtube? :p
03:19:22 <elliott> (for sake of cpu/battery life on this)
03:19:46 <quintopia> just search for "ballet mecanique"
03:20:17 <quintopia> that was just the only complete one. the youtube ones are cut short.
03:20:51 <elliott> quintopia: full disclosure, i did get a computer to do the tedious parts of writing it for me
03:21:07 <elliott> so that's as valid as using any music composition software vs. writing a midi by hand
03:22:18 <quintopia> it did get more interesting towards the end though
03:22:46 <elliott> Also the basic algorithm is actually Gregor's, but I fed it the parameters I wanted.
03:23:08 <Gregor> Only the ipv4 part of it.
03:23:32 <elliott> WHAT I'M SAYING IS I did it with http://codu.org/algorhythms/
03:32:49 <quintopia> elliott: http://www.filedropper.com/binaccapella1 i listened to yours, so you must listen to mine, mwahahaha
03:36:44 <Gregor> Hey guys. WHY ARE YOU NOT LISTENING TO SUPERTURING ON LOOP
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03:51:10 <quintopia> gregor: because i have just discovered a vps that will give me 1024MB of RAM and 2 IP addresses for $20/mo (which is what I'm paying now for 256MB of RAM D:)
03:52:20 <Gregor> Mind you, that's what I get except for the 2 IPs part :P
03:52:24 <Gregor> And I have no need for 2 IPs
03:53:07 <quintopia> I AM OUTRAGED AT THE OVERPAYING I HAVE BEEN DOING AND SO CANNOT ENJOY SUPERTURING
03:55:19 <quintopia> (another advantage: the server is in the city i live)
03:55:28 <quintopia> (so i can personally bitchslap them if they fuck me)
03:55:41 <Gregor> ... wtf is "burst memory" and "guaranteed memory"
03:55:58 <quintopia> you don't know much about vms do you?
03:56:17 <quintopia> guaranteed memory means it's held in reserve for you. no one can have it
03:56:29 <quintopia> burst memory means you can steal that memory if no one else is using it
03:56:44 <Gregor> quintopia: "Pinned". Got it. So 1024 is what the VM sees, which would also be good to know.
03:57:08 <Gregor> Ohwait, I see, yes, 2 IPs.
03:57:37 <Gregor> Hm, that's kinda compelling ...
03:59:54 <quintopia> downside: "IRC access is forbidden"
04:00:17 <quintopia> which they won't notice for months, of course
04:00:34 <quintopia> if they bother to check and find you doing it, they'll drop you
04:00:49 <Gregor> ... prgmr's policy is "do what you want"
04:04:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Bet you can't wait for IPv6 to be ubiquitous.
04:04:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Instead of a single IP, you get a single /64. :P
04:04:36 <Gregor> vhosts are for pussies.
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04:11:51 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/23564130829196/23564130829196.ogg Hayden ala SONiVOX
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04:14:09 <quintopia> prgmr looks cool, in that the SLA comps you even if you don't complain...but you get less disk space, and they are out of space atm anyway :P
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04:47:25 <Gregor> quintopia: I've actually been autocompensated a couple times too.
04:53:56 <pikhq> tan^3(x)sec^4(x). Anyone want to tell me what I'm too stupid to see?
04:54:25 <pikhq> Sorry. Integral thereof.
04:54:29 <pikhq> Should have specified.
04:55:06 <pikhq> I managed to get a nonsensical answer doing that.
04:55:31 <pikhq> Though I bet I did just do something stupid there...
04:55:39 <quintopia> there's a way you can pull constants out of there too...
04:56:00 <pikhq> I'm certainly not seeing any "simple" u substitutions that work.
04:56:32 <pikhq> This is my diff eq professor's idea of a "review" of calculus.
04:57:06 <coppro> wait, fractions of trig functions
04:57:09 <coppro> there's a trick to this
04:58:10 <pikhq> Not *too* big of a deal if I don't figure this out right away, though. This is due a week from now. :P
05:17:24 <Sgeo> Why does Chrome hate reddit so much?
05:17:35 <Sgeo> I'm seriously starting to think that Firefox may be less hateful
05:19:04 <Gregor> Why are you offending The Google?
05:19:10 <Gregor> Do you want to bring down The Google's wrath?
05:39:08 <Ilari> Ah, this article has (normal) IANA request serving time: about 2 business days.
05:43:26 <pikhq> http://www.snyderstreasures.com/eBay/Images/2009/Terry/ColoredHouse-1.jpg Hitler really should have stuck with the art thing.
05:44:32 <Gregor> pikhq: The guy third from the right is a JEW.
05:45:15 <coppro> that's actually quite a nice piece
05:45:26 <quintopia> i'm not sure pikhq. as bad as the holocaust was, imagine if he had continued to subject the world to his awful version of art!
05:46:05 <pikhq> He was rejected by the art school for not being sufficiently "modern" in his art style...
05:46:16 <pikhq> Yes, stupid art snobbery brought us the death of millions.
05:46:19 <pikhq> Bravo, art world. Bravo.
05:49:40 <pikhq> And he probably wouldn't have even become antisemetic, were he accepted.
05:50:48 <Gregor> Amid rampant suspicion, what to make of Master Sgt. Paul Hitler? That was the name of an Army military police officer who, beginning in the spring of 1942, made his office in the old Trenton High School on Hamilton Avenue. But he had no relation to Adolf Hitler, he explained to curious interviewers; he was, in fact, Brooklyn-born and Jewish.
05:50:48 <Gregor> "I'm not changing my name," Sgt. Hitler told Time magazine. "Let the other fellow change his."
05:52:28 <Gregor> I keep forgetting that there was a time when "Hitler" wasn't synonymous with "evil"
05:52:46 <pikhq> Likewise with the toothbrush mustache.
05:54:08 <pikhq> God... The man managed to ruin an entire facial hair style.
05:54:57 <pikhq> Where they are, in fact, a quite common indicator of hierarchy.
05:54:58 <Gregor> You can suffix nearly any sentence about how people behave with "except in Japan"
05:55:29 <Sgeo> It kind of bothers me to see Suzumiya Haruhi with that armband
05:55:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: You get used to it pretty quick...
05:55:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: That sort of thing is *the norm* there.
05:57:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: What do you feel about swastikas?
05:58:32 <Sgeo> _Perpendicular lines_ can make me feel uneasy
05:58:51 <Sgeo> Well, hmm, more than two, I think
05:59:04 <Sgeo> Actually, I think I'm mostly over that
05:59:56 <pikhq> Then you'd probably be somewhat uneasy in learning Japanese or Chinese.
06:00:31 <Gregor> Yeah, that asshole stole the swastika too!
06:00:40 <pikhq> Meaning: swastika.
06:02:04 <Sgeo> This client isn't showing it properly
06:02:20 <pikhq> It's a Buddhist swastika.
06:02:20 <Sgeo> #redditdowntime is insane right now
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07:01:19 <Ilari> If the processing delay is 2 business days and request threshold is 1.5x/8, that would likely mean allocation tomorrow...
07:01:40 <Ilari> (no idea if that is correct...)
07:02:43 <pikhq> Maybe APNIC said "Fuck it, let someone else do it"?
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08:22:54 <fizzie> Literally "devil", but usually just a generic cuss word.
08:23:43 <augur> fizzie: you're finnish?! :o
08:24:08 <fizzie> Well, yes. Doesn't the fact that my nick starts with "fi" already indicate that?
08:24:38 <augur> no i thought you were just sparkling
08:25:12 <fizzie> http://theimaginaryworld.com/fizzie06.jpg
08:37:17 <augur> satw finland is so cute
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09:18:35 <fizzie> "bath whisk" says my dictionary. It's a bit of tree leaves and such, you whip yourself with it in a sauna.
09:18:53 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vihta
09:18:58 <augur> that makes no sense :D
09:18:59 <fizzie> There's two hanging on a wall there in that pic.
09:19:05 <fizzie> "It is used in traditional sauna-bathing for massage and stimulation of the skin."
09:19:20 <augur> http://satwcomic.com/sauna-time
09:20:29 <fizzie> Yes, that's pretty much how it works.
09:21:31 <augur> northern european boys <3
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11:53:09 <Ilari> Oh my... Talk of what if some other RIR grabs those two last blocks... That would be very bad, as APNIC would then have 3.09 normal pool after dust settles, and knowing the normal rate of APNIC, it is going to burn it in about 4 months even without run-on-the-bank.
11:53:45 <Ilari> Oops, not 3.09, about 2.96...
11:55:47 <Ilari> And regarding run-on-the-bank, some have already semi-jokingly stated that APNIC pool could deplete in April (or so...). Of course, that's trying to model panic.
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12:06:40 <Ilari> "We can't model panic. If you could tell me how to model panic behavior, I could give you an exact end date." -- Tony Hain (about IPv4 depletion).
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12:47:27 <ais523> wait, APNIC needs 3.09 blocks?
12:47:39 <ais523> it'd only get 3 even if it got 2 + final allocation
12:51:26 <Ilari> It would have ~3 blocks if someone else snatches the final 2x/8 allocation. But since that probably won't happen, it has 5x/8 at IANA depletion...
12:54:49 <ais523> I thought the last 5 blocks were going one to each RIR?
12:55:23 <Ilari> Yes, but the amount of address space APNIC will have after the 5x/8s go out happens to be about 5x/8...
12:55:34 <Ilari> (normally allocatable space, that is).
12:56:02 <Ilari> With 5x/8, at 6 weeks per /8 (approx rate of APNIC), it would be 30 weeks, or about 7 months...
12:57:20 <Ilari> After that, they still have 1x/8, but the allocations from that are rather restricted.
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12:58:09 <Ilari> Interestingly, the RIR policies to slow down full depletion of RIRs are probably not going to do good things to routing table size...
12:59:44 <ais523> yep, a routing table explosion's been predicted for a while
13:00:09 <ais523> and somehow I fear IPv6 won't do much to fix it, because it's unlikely to be allocated in a vaguely geographical way, which is what would be needed to keep the routing tables simple
13:01:35 <Ilari> Address bisection (that's popular with IPv6). Also apparently IANA does it too...
13:03:18 <Ilari> Allows allocating adjancent block when someone comes for more address space...
13:06:18 <Ilari> Also, transfer policies are also probably going to blow the amount of routes up.
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14:14:13 <ais523> hmm, most pointless Groklaw thread ever: http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20110124200708910&title=n%2Ft%20posts%20go%20here.&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=0#c897897
14:14:25 <ais523> it's not normally that much like reddit
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14:26:19 <ais523> heh, someone found a way to make the Sun/Oracle JVM version 1.6 segfault (using the matching JDK)
14:34:38 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of finding a way to make GCJ compile code (pure Java) that segfaults on runtime...
14:35:53 <Ilari> Involved somehow slipping uninitialized variable past initialization checks...
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14:36:52 <ais523> gcj is rather buggy IME
14:36:57 <ais523> and also pretty outdated
14:37:18 <Ilari> And it was also an old version...
14:41:15 <Ilari> Heh... And for C++, the magic words for hitting compiler bugs are "partial template specialization"...
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14:44:00 <ais523> hits program bugs quite easily too, IIRC
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15:14:58 <variable> Ilari, there was a funny bug in gcc which allowed one to declare a class inside a template decl.
15:17:33 <ais523> variable: did that do anything useful?
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15:27:38 <Gregor> I want to make a five-minute work that never resolves.
15:27:56 <Gregor> You would listen to it and just scream "Why why god why RESOLVE PLEASE OH GOD RESOLVE"
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15:36:07 <ais523> reddit are busy discussing the following program:
15:36:26 <ais523> ($=[$=[]][(__=!$+$)[_=-~-~-~$]+({}+$)[_/_]+($$=($_=!''+$)[_/_]+$_[+$])])()[__[_/_]+__[_+~$]+$_[_]+$$](_/_)
15:36:45 <ais523> I originally guessed the language incorrectly
15:37:14 <ais523> it isn't, although I tried to parse it as that originally
15:37:26 <ais523> you get a syntax error on the first ], if I mentally parsed it as Perl correctly
15:38:01 <Gregor> Also, "$" is an invalid variable name :P
15:38:21 <ais523> @= is a valid variable name, though
15:38:36 <ais523> and $=[1] would index it
15:38:50 <Gregor> Oh bloody effing wtf perl
15:38:52 <ais523> (I think there isn't actually a variable with that name, though, and it's in implementation namespace)
15:38:58 <ais523> (so you aren't allowed to use it)
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16:17:16 <elliott> Wow, it is impossible to find a Windows XP torrent that hasn't had shit added to it.
16:17:55 <ais523> don't you have a legitimate copy?
16:18:19 <elliott> ais523: yes, but I used my CD key 5 times, and Microsoft have decided that I need to call them on a telephone to use my legally-bought copy any more.
16:18:50 <ais523> elliott: I needed to do that even to use Windows once
16:18:55 <ais523> due to installing it somewhere without an internet connection
16:19:06 <ais523> it was all automated for that
16:19:13 <ais523> just typing long strings of numbers over the phone
16:19:18 <elliott> But yeah, I've decided that getting a cracked copy is less fuss, especially as it'll come with SP3 preinstalled.
16:19:21 <ais523> a little annoying as the phone was at the other end of a house
16:19:34 <elliott> It's not like they'd even sell me XP any more even if I wanted to buy it.
16:20:30 <ais523> and why would you want to buy something you already had a legit copy of?
16:20:57 <elliott> If you're not selling it and you want me to go through unreasonable hoops to make me use something I've already bought, I'm just going to crack it.
16:21:09 <ais523> cracking something is also unreasonable hoops IMO
16:21:37 <elliott> ais523: oh, certainly, but it doesn't involve a tedious phone conversation ... and the last time I did this it was easy to find a cracked Windows without any rubbish
16:21:49 <Gregor> ais523: HEY what's your opinion on the legality of http://codu.org/webmidi/
16:22:06 <ais523> Gregor: what does it do? if it's potentially illegal, I'm not sure if I want to click on it
16:22:30 <Gregor> ais523: It renders MIDIs to .ogg
16:22:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: MUAHAHAHAHA
16:22:51 <elliott> ais523: It renders MIDIs to .ogg using a paid-for sound pack thing.
16:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, but he already infuriates me with his attitudes!
16:22:56 <elliott> ais523: For free, arbitrary MIDIs
16:23:01 <ais523> it'd probably depend on the license of the sound pack
16:23:13 <ais523> and whether they thought of that when writing it
16:23:14 <Gregor> The license of the sound pack is "Here, have a soundfont"
16:23:36 <ais523> in that case, I think it'd come down to common law, which I don't know
16:23:40 <elliott> It would be awesome if the sound pack disallowed distribution of any part in any form ... then you couldn't distribute your own music rendered with it
16:23:46 <ais523> because they clearly intended you to be able to use the soundfont for something
16:24:02 <ais523> so there's an implied license there, but you probably need a huge court battle to work out exactly what it's implying
16:25:52 <elliott> Oh, this is cool: apparently corporate editions of Windows don't have the "YOU MUST ACTIVATE IN 30 DAYS" crap... so you can use a stock Microsoft ISO and as long as you have a valid CD key at install time (trivial to get), it won't bug you.
16:30:07 <ais523> elliott: the (I assume genuine) Windows installations at university decided to randomly fail WGA a few years ago
16:30:13 <ais523> and give little popup boxes about being illegal
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16:30:33 <elliott> Gregor: Microsoft's life would be a lot easier if they just didn't try and prevent piracy at all :P
16:30:58 <ais523> elliott: they need to prevent it enough that people who don't know what they're doing at all can't pirate it
16:31:08 <elliott> ais523: they can... by asking a techie friend
16:31:20 <ais523> in fact, IIRC the purpose of WGA is to prevent accidental institutional piracy
16:31:26 <ais523> where computer stores use illegal copies of Windows by mistake
16:31:33 <elliott> ais523: Piracy of Windows is probably the one constant in the universe, it's completely unstoppable and utterly rampant, and not only that but shit like WGA hurts good customers too.
16:31:44 <elliott> (By way of being FUCKING ANNOYING and occasionally deciding a legit machine isn't.)
16:32:03 <elliott> Not only would they get a lot of good karma for not fighting piracy, but they'd have a lot more time to fix bugs :P
16:32:04 <ais523> WGA is a bad idea, yes
16:32:19 <ais523> I'm not convinced that not fighting piracy would give them good karma, though
16:32:22 <elliott> Apple don't do it, although admittedly Apple solve problems like OSx86 via lawsuits.
16:32:32 <elliott> ais523: Certainly would from the pirates.
16:32:52 <elliott> ais523: And most Windows users don't care if people pirate Windows...
16:32:53 <ais523> elliott: hmm, they probably don't care about that, though
16:33:08 <elliott> ais523: Look at all the indie games without DRM and the praise they get for it.
16:33:42 <ais523> and even if they required a CD key, nobody would care
16:33:45 <elliott> ais523: Hell, look at every time a corporation has noticed piracy and not reacted in a hostile manner -- the internet explodes with gratitude.
16:34:01 <ais523> what sort of DRM does Minecraft have, anyway?
16:34:15 <elliott> ais523: if you don't authenticate with the MC servers on login, you can't play on 90% of multiplayer servers
16:34:29 <elliott> ais523: also, it automatically updates every time you log in without backup (but this is being fixed...)
16:34:49 <elliott> ais523: tl;dr when you fail to log in, you can play locally, but remote servers will check if you're logged in to minecraft.net, and if you're not, they won't let you in
16:34:52 <ais523> (see, if I treat Sun's pet projects like PSOX, perhaps they'll realise they're a bad idea)
16:34:55 <elliott> there are mods to stop this, but very few people use them
16:35:06 <elliott> ais523: err...I don't think Sun can realise anything at this point
16:35:15 <elliott> considering it's a lifeless carcass
16:35:20 <ais523> no, it was merged into Oracle
16:35:26 <ais523> that doesn't cause it to cease existing
16:35:31 <ais523> it's more like becoming a member of the Borg
16:35:32 <elliott> ais523: More like "dismembered".
16:36:15 <elliott> I seriously can't figure out whether Oracle are incompetent and evil or just REALLY evil.
16:43:26 <oerjan> just check for scales under the executives' makeup
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16:52:58 <Gregor> (If scales -> incompetent + evil. Friggin' lizards)
16:55:01 <elliott> no scales -> incompetent and evil
16:55:21 <oerjan> i was assuming elliott's interpretation here
16:55:32 <Gregor> Lizards aren't capable of that degree of evil, they're too stupid. Friggin' lizards.
16:56:00 <oerjan> these are ALIEN lizards, Gregor. not your average amazon jungle kind.
16:56:37 <Gregor> oerjan: And we all know that God's chosen people were on Earth, not out in space, so the space-lizards are clearly morons. QED.
16:56:45 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Microsystems#Sun_acquisitions Man... Sun acquired shitloads of corporations.
16:56:59 <oerjan> in fact they're probably dinosaurs who survived the extinction by developing FTL space travel and are now coming back to claim what they see as rightfully theirs.
16:57:11 <elliott> oerjan: but are they also nazis?
16:57:33 <oerjan> elliott: that's backward, the nazis were clearly them
16:57:45 <Gregor> Did they really have to develop FTL space travel to fit this story?
16:57:57 <Gregor> They would have had 30 million years of outwards travel (in potentia)
16:58:07 <elliott> DINOSAURS EXCEEDING LIGHTSPEED
16:58:17 <oerjan> Gregor: hm that's a point. in fact it would fit better with a slower-than-light generation ship
16:59:07 <elliott> CD87T-HFP4C-V7X7H-8VY68-W7D7M
16:59:10 <ais523> oerjan: wrong way round, FTL space travel would cause them to arrive before they set off
16:59:11 <elliott> that's just a random string of digits
16:59:14 <Gregor> They travelled for 30 million years, went "well this place is rubbish", and turned around in hopes that in the 60 million years since they'd left, Earth would've been restored.
16:59:16 <elliott> everyone ignore it, especially ais523
16:59:33 <ais523> elliott: I'm sure that posting suspicious random strings of alphanumerics is against some policy or other
16:59:46 <elliott> ais523: I have a policy that there is no such policy.
16:59:47 <Gregor> I'm betting it's a Windows product code
16:59:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It MIGHT be a Windows XP key that I just copied!
17:00:10 <oerjan> ais523: i think any ftl travel which doesn't come with some way of preventing closed time loops is going to be very destructive.
17:00:15 <ais523> why would you put it in the channel, anyway?
17:00:30 <elliott> ais523: because opening the iso again would be tedious, and why would i open another text editor when i have this one open?
17:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, to troll your boneheaded attitude towards copyright law, presumably.
17:00:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh shut up.
17:00:47 <elliott> ais523 is just anal about following laws, it doesn't mean he likes them.
17:01:10 <ais523> elliott: you could have PMed yourself
17:01:14 * elliott gives 768 megs of ram to the VM, but only because 1 gig seemed like a ridiculous amount
17:01:16 <ais523> it'd stop it getting lost in the garbage
17:01:30 <elliott> ais523: i'm just going to grep for lots of discussion about a key :D
17:02:06 <elliott> Failed to create a new virtual machine Windows XP.
17:02:06 <elliott> Registered machine with UUID {0380cf4a-618f-40a4-a9a0-e867c24c88ea} ('栯浯⽥汥楬瑯⽴嘮物畴污潂⽸慍档湩獥圯湩潤獷堠⽐楗摮睯偘砮汭') already exists.
17:02:38 <elliott> Now I can't remove this unknown VM :P
17:03:03 <ais523> elliott: why on earth would you not compare the hash to a known-genuine hash of Windows?
17:03:07 <ais523> because Microsoft doesn't publish those?
17:03:30 <ais523> elliott: well, you didn't put that VM there, presumably
17:03:37 <elliott> ais523: it was a virtualbox bug
17:03:43 <elliott> restarting virtualbox fixed it
17:03:49 <elliott> ais523: I haven't even /shown/ it the ISO yet
17:04:10 <elliott> ais523: anyway, there was a hash in the torrent information, and plenty of comments saying it was bit-for-bit identical to stock Windows, so I'm not going to bother checking -- after all, this /is/ a VM
17:04:18 <elliott> the whole _point_ is to run untrusted native code in complete safety
17:04:31 <elliott> ooh, I have hardware virtualisation now, which means I can emulate a dual-core machine if I so desire
17:04:48 <ais523> what about triple-core, two hardware, one software?
17:05:06 <ais523> elliott: sorry, just another insane idea
17:05:12 <ais523> that is probably a very bad one
17:05:44 <elliott> ugh, virtualbox is infuriatingly badly-designed
17:06:05 <elliott> also, by making the host key right ctrl, it has conveniently ignored the fact that i have no right control key
17:06:16 <ais523> elliott: how do you manage that?
17:06:32 <ais523> as in, what sort of keyboard wouldn't easily let you press control with either hand?
17:06:33 <elliott> fn ctrl alt cmd [spacebar] cmd alt <- V ->
17:06:37 <elliott> where <- V -> are the arrow keys
17:06:54 <elliott> (the arrow keys are one row heigh)
17:07:02 <elliott> ais523: obviously, you don't press ctrl in os x much
17:07:06 <elliott> since cmd is the main shortcut key
17:07:14 <ais523> the bottom row here is ctrl fn super alt ` spacebar altgr \ menu ctrl left down right
17:07:21 <elliott> no, wait, right winkey (cmd)
17:07:34 <ais523> ah, cmd = super, internally?
17:07:47 <elliott> ais523: well, by default -- this is Ubuntu, not OS X
17:07:54 <elliott> I could use xmodmap to change it if I wanted
17:08:03 <ais523> Ubuntu + apple keyboard
17:08:20 <elliott> ais523: *Ubuntu + MacBook Air
17:08:28 <elliott> except the rest of the hardware is Apple, too
17:09:17 <elliott> meanwhile on reddit: "Help! Just found out my vegan friend is trying to put her cat on a vegan diet, what should I do?"
17:10:29 <oerjan> <ais523> elliott: you could have PMed yourself> <-- /me didn't know this was possible
17:10:37 <ais523> oerjan: why wouldn't it be?
17:10:53 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
17:10:57 <elliott> <elliott> it's always good to have company
17:10:57 <elliott> <elliott> it's always good to have company
17:10:57 <elliott> <elliott> nobody else talks to me
17:11:00 <elliott> <elliott> nobody else talks to me
17:11:33 <copumpkin> for the lonely person too dumb to fire up to IRC instances?
17:17:48 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: why wouldn't it be? <-- it's not like using a remote chatting protocol to send yourself a message is an _intuitively_ obvious design feature
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17:18:19 <ais523> oerjan: well, it would more need a special case in order to stop that, and why would anyone implement that?
17:20:21 <elliott> only makes sense if you know the IRC protocol's basic structure, really
17:20:33 <elliott> mind you, stupid special-cases are annoyingly common in software
17:21:10 <elliott> wtf, the serial key doesn't work :(
17:21:16 <oerjan> <elliott> meanwhile on reddit: "Help! Just found out my vegan friend is trying to put her cat on a vegan diet, what should I do?" <-- it is a relatively well-known fact that felines _need_ some chemical(s) from meat in order to survive
17:21:37 <Gregor> Cats are not omnivores X_X
17:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the post said that the friend in question had taurine covered.
17:21:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, she was.
17:22:00 <Slereah> Well, cats sometimes eat a bit of plants.
17:22:04 <elliott> Trying to put a carnivore on a non-carnivorous diet = moron.
17:22:07 <Slereah> But it's not a big part of their diet, yes
17:22:13 <elliott> No matter how many precautions you take, you're still an abject moron.
17:22:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, she'd clearly thought out the nutritional blah blah blah.
17:22:28 <Gregor> Slereah: It's as much a part of their diet as fiber is a part of ours, it aids in digestion but is not itself digested.
17:22:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't stop her being a moron.
17:22:34 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, trying to force your beliefs on your cat is idiocy.
17:22:52 <elliott> MY KITTY-WITTY WOULD NEVER HUWT A FLY
17:22:52 <Gregor> My cat eats bugs ... hopefully hers will too :)
17:23:02 <elliott> WOULDN'T YOU KITTY? WUDDN'T YOO?
17:23:20 <elliott> NO YOO WUDN'T! OH NO YOO WUDN'T!
17:25:37 <oerjan> now what would _really_ make me facepalm is if it was an outdoor cat :D
17:26:07 <elliott> ugh @ the idea of an indoor cat
17:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I have, due to family stupidity, become the de-facto Disposer Of Dead Mice The Cat Brings In.
17:26:44 <Gregor> elliott: My cat is friggin' terrified of outside.
17:26:55 <elliott> Gregor: Your cat is broken.
17:27:01 <elliott> Gregor: (Don't tell me it's declawed)
17:27:10 <Gregor> Declawing is horrible.
17:27:19 <elliott> I had no idea you crazy bastards did it.
17:27:22 <Gregor> elliott: Having an indoor cat is not however.
17:27:40 <elliott> Gregor: Well, all the cats _I've_ known would have clawed you to death if you kept them indoors :P
17:27:49 <Gregor> quintopia: I have a friend whose cat is a dog.
17:27:57 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: get a new family
17:28:04 <elliott> I have a friend who's a dog.
17:28:13 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Strictly no, but imagine somebody tearing off all your fingernails so they wouldn't grow back.
17:28:18 <elliott> "Windows Xp Professional Professional serial number S/N: S/N:"
17:28:21 <elliott> Windows Xp PROFESSIONAL PROFESSIONAL
17:28:26 <quintopia> gregor: literally? or just acts like one?
17:28:36 <Gregor> quintopia: Behaviorally.
17:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> [[...amputating all or part of the distal phalanx...]] — WP
17:28:46 <elliott> Gregor: Your friend's cat is broken.
17:28:56 <coppro> My other cat is also a dog
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17:29:39 <Gregor> And hates everyone who isn't me. And outside.
17:30:02 <quintopia> the only thing better than a cute little kitty is any dog.
17:30:09 <Gregor> Pfff, dogs are made of fail.
17:31:20 <elliott> Fail and stupid and moron and SMELL.
17:31:32 <elliott> In conclusion, dogs = poop
17:31:52 <oerjan> <elliott> Gregor: Well, all the cats _I've_ known would have clawed you to death if you kept them indoors :P <-- i vaguely recall it only works if you do it from birth
17:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> [[It is estimated that 25% of owned cats in the United States are declawed (Patronek 2001).]]
17:32:14 <Gregor> oerjan: Nope, my cat lived the first seven years of her life as an indoor-outdoor cat.
17:32:19 <elliott> What's the point of a cat if you can't get a steady supply of dead mice from it
17:32:28 <elliott> Also the smiley for butts. I mean, the bottom value.
17:32:52 <Gregor> oerjan: Then she got bit and that got horribly infected, giving her very good reason to not want to go outside :P
17:33:05 <Gregor> oerjan: Since then, she's only willing to be outside if she's carried, and even then she's freaking out.
17:33:48 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me her eyes widen considerably.
17:33:56 <elliott> While being completely still apart from a slight tremble.
17:34:04 <Gregor> elliott: She is not still in the least.
17:34:23 <Gregor> elliott: She hugs my neck with her claws in the back of my neck, and her considerably poofed-up tail twitches like mad.
17:34:39 <elliott> Gregor: BUT DO HER EYES WIDEN
17:34:54 <Gregor> elliott: Probably, it's hard to see her eyes when I'm carrying her in this fashion :P
17:35:56 <elliott> I wonder what I should feed into webmidi next.
17:36:45 <Gregor> elliott: It pans out the instruments to give it a more natural, stereo feeling.
17:36:52 <elliott> Gregor: Do I... want that?
17:37:03 <Gregor> elliott: If you're feeding it something orchestral, maybe. Otherwise, no.
17:37:14 <elliott> Gregor: I would say that this is certainly ORCHESTRAL in scope.
17:37:44 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:39:30 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/6768222720461/6768222720461.ogg ... not as good as the MIDI :P
17:39:34 <elliott> It's oklopol's sevenfold.mid.
17:39:51 <elliott> Gregor: Some of the drums are missing or something I think.
17:41:06 <elliott> Gregor: Trying it with chorium now.
17:42:21 <elliott> I think the amazing broke Gregor's brain.
17:43:04 <oerjan> Igor! Bring Gregor a new brain.
17:43:38 <Gregor> Yeah, my brain is pretty much dead from that.
17:44:13 <elliott> Gregor: The midi verison is better :P
17:44:19 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/6914810022931/6914810022931.mid
17:44:20 <ais523> what is sevenfold.mid?
17:44:24 <elliott> ais523: oklopol's masterpiece
17:44:35 <ais523> yes, but in what sense?
17:44:38 <elliott> ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/sevenfold.mid
17:44:40 <ais523> I mean, more precisely?
17:45:06 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/6914810022931/ HOW LONG WILL THIS STAY QUEUED
17:45:35 <Gregor> elliott: FOREVER AND A DAY
17:47:38 -!- quintopia has joined.
17:49:20 <elliott> Gregor: It's still queued.
17:49:40 <Gregor> elliott: Has it been forever and a day yet?
17:51:04 -!- j-invariant has joined.
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17:52:36 <Gregor> I really wish SONiVOX had better strings >_>
17:52:48 <elliott> I RE-ADDED IT AND IT'S STILL QUEUED
17:52:53 <elliott> I think your system is b0rked.
17:53:00 <Gregor> My system is batch(1), it's not broken.
17:53:16 <Gregor> Probably Codu is just a bit busy right now, webmidi is about the lowest priority anything on the system can possibly be.
17:53:31 <elliott> Gregor: No, clearly bath(1) is broken :P
17:54:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, incidentally, it just occurred to me that the trombute isn't really like a flute.
17:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, yes, but other things like, say, producing notes by overblowing, don't translate well.
17:55:38 <Gregor> It's not a trombone, either.
17:55:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And when you get around to the high notes with crazy fingerings, the mechanism of producing sound is clearly entirely different.
17:55:45 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/6914810022931/6914810022931.ogg This is better, except the volumes are more screwed up.
17:55:54 <elliott> The guitar is way too quiet and the non-cymbal drums too.
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17:56:20 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/68611741718438/68611741718438.ogg This is better, but would be better if SONiVOX had better strings.
17:58:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, what's that enormous bit at the top of the trombute, BtW?
17:59:01 <elliott> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/7220343828770/7220343828770.ogg This is officially the greatest thing I have ever heard.
17:59:04 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... the mouthpiece??? I don't know to what you refer.
17:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, it has the narrow tube which slides, and then a much thicker cylinder at the top where you blow into it.
18:00:20 <Gregor> It's not thicker, it's the same bore.
18:00:48 <elliott> GUYS, http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/7220343828770/7220343828770.ogg
18:01:25 <variable> <ais523> variable: did that do anything useful? -> yeah it made the class :-)
18:02:01 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember if the bore of a flute would affect its pitch
18:02:17 <ais523> variable: now I'm trying to remember the context of /my/ comment
18:02:26 <variable> ais523, hehe; re the class in a template
18:02:31 <ais523> oh, defining a class in a template arg
18:03:13 <ais523> elliott: g++ specifically, you're not supposed to be able to do that
18:03:21 <ais523> and I think probably only in older versions
18:03:52 <elliott> Man, the Haskell Platform Windows installer sure is swanky.
18:04:07 <elliott> (I must put GHC on every OS I possibly can.)
18:04:35 <elliott> 04:09:43 <quintopia> downside: "IRC access is forbidden"
18:04:36 <elliott> 04:10:06 <quintopia> which they won't notice for months, of course
18:04:43 <elliott> quintopia: just use prgmr.com, like Gregor does :P
18:04:58 <ais523> banning IRC is quite common because IRC used to make you a DDOS magnet
18:05:09 <ais523> I'm not sure if it still does
18:05:20 <elliott> well, gcc is very buggy, I imagine g++ is even worse
18:05:31 <ais523> (incidentally, when Vorpal gave me shell access to one of his machines, the only requirement was "don't use it for IRC", although I wouldn't have done so anyway except possibly by mistake)
18:06:02 <elliott> ais523: I wonder why on earth.
18:06:23 <elliott> ais523: oh, maybe because if you did something evil, Vorpal would get the same IP banned :-P
18:08:15 <elliott> oerjan: I think you might have to _omit_ the & in winghci to get it to fork
18:08:27 <elliott> oerjan: the default editor is "¬epad", and "notepad foo.txt" from a console exits immediately
18:08:29 <elliott> so I bet & means "wait for"
18:09:17 <elliott> oerjan: also, non-maximised scrolling works for me, in haskell platform 2010.2
18:09:27 <variable> ais523, http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=47144
18:10:31 <elliott> 05:55:57 <pikhq> He was rejected by the art school for not being sufficiently "modern" in his art style...
18:10:31 <elliott> 05:56:08 <pikhq> Yes, stupid art snobbery brought us the death of millions.
18:10:35 <elliott> pikhq: ISTR this being a total myth
18:10:37 <zzo38> In Windows, when I use the Windows command-line, GUI programs will reactivate the command-line immediately instead of waiting for the program to finish. When the UNIX command-line is used in Windows (such as with MinGW or Cygwin), the command-line will not be reactivated until the program is finished, unless & is typed at the end.
18:10:46 <elliott> in that he got his political opinions and aspirations well before he was rejected from art school
18:11:28 <variable> zzo38, depends on if the program forks and execs to "deamonize" or not
18:11:36 <elliott> 06:08:25 <Sgeo> _Perpendicular lines_ can make me feel uneasy
18:11:47 <elliott> variable: No fork in Win32 :P
18:11:57 <oerjan> elliott: hm i guess i'll have to try again with the newest version
18:12:14 <elliott> oerjan: then we can welcome you to the glorious world of 2007
18:12:22 <zzo38> (Use START /WAIT if you want to run a GUI program in the Windows command-line and wait for it to finish, but it is useful only for batch scripts?)
18:12:42 <elliott> oerjan: btw i notice that it defaults to using Consolas even if you don't have Consolas installed, which causes it to revert to Times New Roman
18:12:43 <variable> elliott, there is something similar in createProccess; I was talking about the unix tools though
18:12:56 <ais523> elliott: Windows has the spawn*() family of functions, which do the same as fork/exec; also CreateProcess/CreateProcessEx
18:13:10 <elliott> ais523: IIRC they don't quite do the same
18:13:14 <elliott> ais523: note that the NT kernel has forking capabilities, and the POSIX subsystem exposes this
18:13:24 <ais523> well, unlikely to be quite the same
18:13:36 <elliott> ais523: so NT is perfectly capable of efficient exact POSIX forking
18:13:39 <elliott> (well, I think it's efficient)
18:13:42 <elliott> ais523: just not in Win32 programs
18:13:58 <oerjan> elliott: although i'm pretty sure i tried without & too. the thing is that gvim from a console _also_ exist immediately, but _not_ from ghci or winghci last i tried. iirc.
18:14:22 <elliott> oerjan: hm you could make a start-gvim.bat
18:14:25 <elliott> oerjan: and use that as the editor
18:14:27 <zzo38> variable: In Windows it doesn't do. Cygwin programs can use fork, and ngIRCd (also CthulhuIRCd) runs in daemonizing mode by default (although doing this in Windows causes it to say the service was unable to start, and start anyways; now the service command cannot stop it, so I run it in non-daemonizing mode since the service manager will daemonize it for me)
18:14:40 <olsner> I have a gvim.bat in windows
18:14:50 <elliott> oerjan: for instance "start notepad" starts notepad and immediately returns
18:14:55 <olsner> (not sure what the problem is, but I'll just drop a solution anyway)
18:14:55 <elliott> oerjan: so if you had a gvim.bat with
18:15:10 <elliott> oerjan: then you could just give that as the editor to winghci
18:15:17 <variable> zzo38, heh ok; I haven't programmed for windows in years
18:15:31 <elliott> oerjan: put that as C:\whatever\gvim.bat, and use that as the winghci editor
18:16:31 <zzo38> Most UNIX programs can compile on Windows if you have Cygwin, though. Some will also work with MinGW.
18:16:51 <elliott> oerjan: winghci doesn't blink matching parens though which is irritating
18:17:40 <ais523> ^ perhaps the first time anyone has accused /absence/ of blink of being irritating
18:21:21 <Phantom_Hoover> http://knol.google.com/k/carl/what-is-computation/pcxtp4rx7g1t/30#
18:22:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to be saying that the Cloud disproves the Church-Turing thesis.
18:22:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: by being super-TC and actually existing?
18:23:16 <ais523> AFAIK, that's the only way you can disprove the thesis, although it depends on your definition and there are something like 12 of them
18:23:26 <olsner> would something super-TC disprove the thesis?
18:23:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Seems to involve nondeterminism, which is not superturing by itself.
18:23:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> [[there is a bound on the size of integer that can be computed starting on a blank tape by an always-halting machine]]
18:24:38 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/78362931531772/78362931531772.ogg <-- solution to all of life's problems.
18:24:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: only if you also put a bound on the size of the machine
18:25:07 <j-invariant> it's just a quantifier mixup, everyone makes mistakes like that
18:26:05 <Gregor> lol, the way they handle the fireworks and eggs hatching in MIDI = epic to the max.
18:26:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: IF YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE IT, YOU ARE MADE OF FAIL.
18:26:36 <Gregor> j-invariant: 'course not
18:26:53 <Gregor> j-invariant: I made http://codu.org/music/e/superturing/superturing.ogg though! 8-D
18:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, well, OK, but is it actually the case that concurrency disproves the Church-Turing thesis?
18:28:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that was kind of the way the Reddit post for it framed it.
18:28:49 <olsner> based on the layout of the page, I'd say they're wrong
18:28:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: FAIL TO THE MAX
18:28:54 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You need more Mario.
18:29:15 <olsner> Gregor: I don't recognize it either
18:29:21 <elliott> <ais523> ^ perhaps the first time anyone has accused /absence/ of blink of being irritating
18:29:30 <elliott> (foobar|) <-- the ( blinks
18:29:33 <ais523> elliott: I know, don't ruin the joke
18:29:34 <elliott> makes it easy to match parens
18:29:48 <olsner> Gregor: and mario is overrated
18:29:52 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to be saying that the Cloud disproves the Church-Turing thesis.
18:29:52 <elliott> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: by being super-TC and actually existing? <-- nuh uh, there are no TC machines in this universe, and that doesn't disprove Church-Turing
18:29:56 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I was 4 at the end of the eighties, and this game came out in '95 :P
18:30:02 <elliott> the universe that Church-Turing applies to is ... ill-defined, but it's one with turing machines in it
18:30:10 <Gregor> It's the ending and credits to Super Mario World ya loser.s
18:30:43 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Then you're a child of the '00s, and the point you were trying to make is that you weren't a child of the NINETIES.
18:30:47 <elliott> <Gregor> lol, the way they handle the fireworks and eggs hatching in MIDI = epic to the max.
18:31:01 <elliott> with drums for the eggs it seems :P
18:31:11 <elliott> that's a firework setting off
18:31:18 <Gregor> elliott: The eggs are a ways through.
18:31:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So is SuperTuring Opus 14?
18:32:12 <Gregor> I thought it was pikhq's opinion that mattered.
18:32:19 <elliott> It is, and I'm sure he agrees. pikhq?
18:35:05 <elliott> pikhq: How do you get the POSIX subsystem running again?
18:35:57 <elliott> "Because only the first version of POSIX (POSIX.1) is implemented, a POSIX application cannot create a thread or window, nor can it use RPC or socket. Instead of implementing the later versions of POSIX, Microsoft offers Windows Services for UNIX."
18:36:01 <elliott> OK, tl;dr I should use Interix instead.
18:36:52 <ais523> elliott: IIRC, Windows POSIX implements only the bare minimum necessary to correctly claim compliance
18:36:58 <elliott> Still, I could download a Windows X11 server.
18:37:15 <elliott> ais523: false -- it ships with ksh, vi, gdb, perl, x11 programs and libraries (but no server), ...
18:37:28 <elliott> ais523: you're thinking of the POSIX subsystem, which just implemented the first POSIX standard, POSIX.1
18:37:37 <elliott> which is not the same thing as Windows Services for UNIX, based on the Interix subsystem
18:37:47 <elliott> (POSIX subsystem isn't included as of XP)
18:38:09 <elliott> ais523: heck, it even ships with gcc 3
18:38:18 <elliott> hmm, but it looks like the last release was in 200
18:38:25 <elliott> I'm just thinking that it's probably _much_ faster than cygwin
18:40:39 <elliott> oh look, Cygwin redesigned their website rather than making their package manager not suck or optimising
18:42:24 <Vorpal> <ais523> (incidentally, when Vorpal gave me shell access to one of his machines, the only requirement was "don't use it for IRC", although I wouldn't have done so anyway except possibly by mistake) <- I did?
18:42:34 <Vorpal> ais523, must have been ages ago
18:42:47 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt whatever machine it was exists still
18:42:49 <ais523> you were hosting a C-INTERCAL repo, IIRC
18:43:02 <Vorpal> ais523, ah yes that server is gone
18:43:26 <quintopia> "don't use it for IRC. forkbombs, sure, but no IRC."
18:43:33 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:43:44 <ais523> as is envbot, by the look of it
18:43:58 <Vorpal> ais523, still launchpad. Probably not running on irc atm though
18:44:10 <Vorpal> quintopia, well it was freebsd with sensible limits set up
18:44:17 <Vorpal> so fork bomb wouldn't have worked really
18:44:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: j-invariant: the same guy who wrote that concurrency-disproves-church-turing thing also thinks Wikipedia is corrupt and censors
18:44:25 <elliott> Wikipedia ban for disruptive professor response at http://wikicensored.info
18:44:25 <elliott> http://wikicensored.carlhewitt.info
18:44:25 <elliott> Professor Carl Hewitt has written a response at the Google Knol "Corruption of Wikipedia."
18:44:29 <elliott> at least, I think that's what that implies
18:44:39 <elliott> Knol is basically a crackpot wasteland, anyway
18:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, from replies on the Reddit thread it looks like he neglected to mention that the Actor model is superturing by dint of adding a halting oracle.
18:47:06 <elliott> Cygwin still installs bash 3 by default. Discuss.
18:47:27 <Gregor> bash 4 sux and is for noobs
18:47:37 <ais523> I didn't even realise bash had distinct major versions
18:47:55 <Gregor> elliott: Did you notice that I upgraded WebMIDI's interface and it is now awesome?
18:48:03 <Gregor> (Read: Slightly less terrible)
18:48:31 <ais523> elliott: many programs just leave the major version the same forever
18:48:32 <elliott> Gregor: It's almost identical, dude :P
18:48:35 <ais523> in fact, probably most
18:48:39 <elliott> Gregor: NEEDS MOAR COLOUR MATCHER SET TO "DON'T MATCH"
18:48:52 <Gregor> elliott: The interface when you tell it to generate, not the start page X_X
18:48:54 <elliott> ais523: software versioning is a joke
18:49:04 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, the text is different, but it still links to a raw directory listing :P
18:49:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:49:32 <Gregor> elliott: ... THE TEXT UPDATES ITSELF AND THEN GIVES YOU A DIRECT LINK TO THE OGG AND PLAYS THE AUDIO IN-PAGE YOU DUCKFUCKER
18:49:33 <quintopia> Gregor: update us when you get actual progress bars kthx
18:49:44 <elliott> Gregor: I didn't actually read the text.
18:49:47 <Gregor> quintopia: I have as close to a progress bar as is possible given FluidSynth.
18:49:50 <elliott> I just noticed that the wording was fluffier :P
18:50:03 <impomatic> I'm not a big fan of Wikipedia... Stupid bureaucracy, admins deleting stuff because they don't think it's notable yet they're not in a position to judge. Content being deleted because it's missing citations. :-(
18:50:22 <quintopia> Gregor: recommend you ditch fluidsynth forever
18:50:29 <Gregor> impomatic: Well, Wikipedia's not a fan of you either.
18:50:34 <Gregor> quintopia: FluidSynth - fucking - rocks.
18:50:48 <Gregor> quintopia: I don't think I can stress to you enough how much better FluidSynth is than all other options.
18:50:49 <ais523> impomatic: I get annoyed with the attitude of some admins wrt that too; in particular, "not notable" shouldn't even be a deletion reason
18:50:51 <quintopia> Gregor: surely there is something out there that rocks as much while sucking less
18:50:53 <elliott> FluidSynth is an utterly terrible program that produces great results, seemingly :P
18:51:09 <elliott> ais523: you shouldn't have given up your admin privileges, just so you can say things like that and people would listen
18:51:14 <ais523> "no significant secondary source coverage" is, and the one which should probably be used instead to remove the majority of people making pages about themselves, etc
18:51:23 <quintopia> suggest taking its main algorithm and putting it in a nonsuck program
18:51:33 <elliott> ais523: I still think the "reliable sources" criteria is... obsolete.
18:51:44 <ais523> elliott: it's policy, notability's just an essay
18:51:45 <elliott> ais523: I don't know what to replace it with, but "HURR IT'S INK ON PAPER" is just unbelievably stupid.
18:51:57 <ais523> oh, requiring printed sources is a little ridiculous, yes
18:52:04 <Gregor> quintopia: That's effort I have no intention of investing :P
18:52:07 <ais523> newspaper websites typically count, though, and are normally the easiest source to find
18:52:18 <ais523> (random blogs don't, which also makes sense)
18:52:30 <quintopia> Gregor: suggest you not be so damned lazy. leave laziness to the pros.
18:53:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:53:05 <ais523> email spam's dropped below 80% of all messages, it seems
18:53:19 <ais523> and has declined by more than half since this time last year
18:53:29 <Gregor> ais523: It's dropped below 99.99% of all messages???
18:53:57 <ais523> email spammers are either getting bored, or deciding other communication media are more worthy of spending cycles spamming
18:53:58 <quintopia> one of the major botnets quit outputting at the end of last year
18:54:02 <elliott> Vorpal: How does one obtain the latest cfunge?
18:54:06 <quintopia> and it has restarted but only at a trickle
18:54:11 <elliott> I want to subject Cygwin to it again.
18:54:16 <quintopia> who knows what they are gearing up for
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18:55:35 <elliott> oerjan: any luck w/ Haskell Platform?
18:55:49 <impomatic> ais523: marking an article for deletion only gets a response from regular wikipedia users... not the kind of people who can judge whether or not it's notable.
18:55:53 <j-invariant> they have failed if you are even asking that question
18:55:59 <elliott> j-invariant: oerjan just has a nitpick with it
18:56:02 <elliott> j-invariant: specifically WinGhci
18:56:08 <elliott> the windows gui interface to ghci
18:56:08 <ais523> impomatic: that's why the conditions for deletion shouldn't depend on something as vague as notability
18:56:11 <elliott> and its interaction with gvim
18:56:30 <ais523> deleting an article because you can't find sources for it makes sense, though, because otherwise you have no way to tell if it's reliable
18:56:49 <elliott> impomatic: note that "the people who can judge whether or not its notable" are hard to find
18:56:57 <elliott> the people who know a lot about it usually want it kept, after all
18:57:01 <elliott> even if it's utter twaddle
18:57:21 <quintopia> let us discard the notability condition
18:58:02 <impomatic> Wikipedia seems to be full of people making non-productive edits.
18:58:50 <oerjan> elliott: um i haven't started yet :D
18:58:55 <ais523> impomatic: if you see how much obvious junk there is, you wouldn't be surprised at how people end up quick to delete
18:59:09 <ais523> when 80% or so of new stuff is rubbish, people get into a mentality of just deleting everything
18:59:52 <ais523> not that they should, but it's easy to see how it happens
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19:00:49 <impomatic> The pseudo code on most Wikipedia pages seems to get regularly tweaked :-(
19:05:30 <oerjan> i've noticed an amount of what looks like very subtle vandalism that i simply cannot judge without knowing the subject - like changing single digits of years...
19:05:56 <oerjan> some places there is obviously a revert war going on but as a bystander i don't know who is the vandal :/
19:06:08 * elliott puts NetHack on the Windows VM
19:06:20 <elliott> GHC and NetHack -- does a computer without them have a right to exist?
19:06:45 <elliott> impomatic: The fork bomb page has something like 50 examples in different languages including multiple ways to do it in Win32 assembly (IIRC) -- totally ridiculous.
19:06:57 <elliott> impomatic: I got rid of most of them except for the iconic and useful ones and got reverted.
19:07:32 <elliott> "In PHP (probably only for POSIX compatible systems)"
19:07:52 <elliott> "In x86 FASM for Linux" "In x86 FASM for Win32" "In x86 NASM assembly for Linux" "In x86_64 NASM assembly for Linux"
19:08:04 <elliott> then a Lisp version that isn't even a forkbomb
19:08:19 <elliott> Java, VB.net, Pict, M, ABAP (wtf is ABAP)
19:08:29 <elliott> ABAP one looks like just for(;;);
19:08:42 <elliott> tl;dr People are idiots and I hate them.
19:09:45 <elliott> Quiz: What do you call a browser that isn't executing JavaScript but doesn't show noscript tags?
19:09:50 <elliott> Answer: Opera on Windows XP
19:10:13 <elliott> Gregor: Firefox would probably take all the VM's RAM hostage :P
19:10:25 <Gregor> Yeah, but at least it would execute JS.
19:10:34 <elliott> Gregor: I disabled JS execution :P
19:10:37 <olsner> hmm, "Any attempt of stopping this will cause the computer to flat-line"
19:10:42 <elliott> Gregor: I just want to know why it isn't showing the noscript contents.
19:10:44 <impomatic> Fork bomb in Redcode: spl 0 / jmp -1... I think it needs adding to Wikipedia
19:10:44 <Gregor> elliott: Well then you're made of fail.
19:10:54 <elliott> Gregor: Like Opera could handle any JS properly.
19:10:55 <Gregor> elliott: That reason is fine I guess :P
19:10:59 <Gregor> elliott: Fair enough :P
19:11:01 <elliott> Gregor: OH MAN WE'RE LAGGED AGAIN
19:11:10 <olsner> elliott: for the DOS forkbomb
19:11:31 <elliott> impomatic: you should add a complete OS implementation that just implements enough to be able to do while(fork()) fork()
19:11:40 <elliott> hmm, or should it be while (!fork()) fork()
19:11:48 <elliott> impomatic: in three different assemblers
19:12:02 <olsner> that is actually a really great idea
19:12:45 <elliott> olsner: it would act just like the NOP OS
19:13:05 <elliott> olsner: the OS that boots, and then does HLT, forever
19:13:12 <elliott> olsner: hmm, or just does JMP $ forever
19:13:16 <elliott> since the forkbomb will likely ramp up the CPU
19:13:25 <elliott> olsner: you should build every operation in your OS around fork()!
19:13:30 <olsner> depending on how you do it, you'd do nothing and then panic due to running out of memory
19:13:30 <impomatic> It doesn't mention the earliest example of a fork bomb.
19:14:07 <olsner> actually, I did consider making every syscall in my OS a "start process and send message" call with some magical way to start approved kernel processes
19:14:50 <olsner> which is not fork, but kind of somewhat similar
19:14:51 <elliott> the earliest example of a fork bomb is when somebody made a fork out of TNT
19:15:07 <elliott> olsner: ooh, or better: send message and start process before I started
19:15:20 <elliott> olsner: that is, it sends a message back in time, to a process that is retroactively created just before the current process was
19:15:35 <elliott> olsner: I have a proof that you can use this to implement your version but this message is too small to contain it
19:15:53 <olsner> aha, not just an OS but a causality experiment
19:16:23 <olsner> well, how hard can it be to say "oops, I didn't start this one before", then rollback to before the process started and try again
19:16:45 <elliott> olsner: result = compute_for_ages(); my_pid = getpid(); if (!preforksend(result)) { printf("Result will be: %d\n", result); exit(0); }
19:16:53 <elliott> olsner: this will print a result that takes a lot of time to compute, and then compute it
19:17:12 <elliott> olsner: note that *this* version will result in a causality error, probably resulting in your quantum universe being destroyed: result = compute_for_ages(); my_pid = getpid(); if (!preforksend(result)) { printf("Result will be: %d\n", result); exit(0); kill(pid); }
19:17:23 <elliott> hmm, shouldn't have had my_pid in the previous example
19:17:35 <olsner> if it calls exit, it can't have called exit!
19:24:56 <j-invariant> elliott: I said "love the game but one of the reason I bought it was because the site says no DRM. yet it connects to minecraft.org when you load it. fix pls?"
19:25:04 <olsner> elliott: the idea of doing syscalls in the past
19:25:06 <elliott> minecraft.org? moar like minecraft.net
19:25:21 <elliott> anyway the chances of him fixing that are nil.
19:25:28 <elliott> also he ignored fizzie too but i imagine he gets like 2 million tweets / second
19:25:33 <olsner> and an OS that can have causality errors
19:25:51 <elliott> olsner: it isn't the OS's error it's the universe's
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20:00:08 <j-invariant> elliott: have you read Conors new Ornaments paper?
20:00:48 <j-invariant> sure it sounds like a word so use it as one
20:02:27 <j-invariant> I guess snab would be the depiction of the sound of a mouse trap accidentally catchingp your finger
20:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, I thought it meant something more akin to 'grab', with added connotations of friendly borrowing without permission.
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20:10:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think you're just thinking of snag.
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20:11:31 <Gregor> Hmmm, no, that's definitely a real use of "snab", but I think that may be a corruption of "snag". I've definitely heard it.
20:12:44 <Gregor> Probably an Americanism too.
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20:17:19 <elliott> j-invariant: try a solid colour.
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20:22:02 <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spinners.png (tiled)
20:22:55 <Gregor> j-invariant: OKOKOK, then http://codu.org/ugly.png (also tiled)
20:23:57 * Gregor has the best wallpapers EVER.
20:24:00 <elliott> `addquote <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spinners.png (tiled) <j-invariant> uhrghoaudp
20:24:34 <Gregor> Oh Mercurial ... I still love you!
20:24:49 <HackEgo> 281) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spinners.png (tiled) <j-invariant> uhrghoaudp
20:24:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: solid colour
20:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I thought your love for Mercurial was being added to the next DSM?
20:25:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ...???
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20:33:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: GO LISTEN TO SUPERTURING ON LOOP
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20:43:24 <elliott> Gregor: You know what sucks? MERCURIAL. And YOUR MOM.
20:43:51 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> j-invariant, is 'snab' a word. <-- "snabb" is a word in swedish :)
20:44:30 <elliott> huh, mario is a bigger franchise than pokemon
20:45:15 <elliott> pikhq: I just did a quick REVIVAL of MicroXP.
20:46:08 <oerjan> (also in norwegian it means a piece of sausage)
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20:51:09 <elliott> pikhq: I've been a bit less drastic than last time in that I've left IE in for the purpose of downloading another browser... but the ISO is still <200 megs :P
20:57:38 <elliott> C:\WINDOWS: 339 MB (344 MB on disk)
20:58:26 <Vorpal> elliott, which version of windows?
20:58:35 <elliott> XP, with all the crap gutted.
20:58:40 <elliott> (OK, so it doesn't support printers or scanners like this.)
20:58:55 <elliott> And it has Windows 2000's installer, too.
20:59:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well I presume you don't
20:59:05 <elliott> Which is vastly superior to XP's by way of not being hideous.
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21:22:25 <quintopia> is there a python IDE that sucks least?
21:23:45 <elliott> or vi if you're that kind of person
21:24:00 <elliott> quintopia: emacs works fine on windows. gvim even better
21:24:18 <elliott> quintopia: if going the emacs route, get EmacsW32 to avoid pain
21:27:03 <quintopia> http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7084/screenshotrqx.png
21:28:17 <elliott> quintopia: gedit is actually "okay" if you customise it... kinda... that isn't windows
21:28:23 <elliott> that's ubuntu skinned to look vaguely like vista
21:28:37 <elliott> dear god my eyes, how can anyone live with all that noise on the screne
21:28:44 <elliott> lol at "sh: vim: not found"
21:28:49 <elliott> quintopia: but you COULD!!!!
21:28:55 <elliott> http://live.gnome.org/Gedit/Windows
21:29:01 <elliott> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/binaries/win32/gedit/
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21:52:33 <elliott> oerjan: btw running ghci in a cygwin terminal works quite nicely
21:52:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:52:53 <oerjan> ...now he wants me to install cygwin as well :D
21:52:53 <elliott> mintty (= fork of putty as a cygwin terminal) + running "ghcii.sh" = ghci
21:56:26 <oerjan> ok now about to start winghci
21:56:29 <elliott> heh, apparently cygwin startup is very slow because bash_completion forks a lot
21:56:39 <elliott> oerjan: written gvim.bat yet? :p
21:57:00 <oerjan> i'm checking the scrolling first
21:57:16 <oerjan> it decided to maximize without asking
21:57:29 <elliott> oerjan: it does that on first launch
21:58:35 <elliott> oerjan: hey in fact the vim installer has an option to create .bats for command line use for you :)
21:58:59 <oerjan> hm ok aborting an infinite fibonacci left it in reasonable state
21:59:22 <elliott> iirc I was unable to abort "sum [0..]", but i've never entered _that_ into ghci before :)
22:00:16 <oerjan> so did a simple mapM_ print of a list of lists
22:00:40 <oerjan> elliott: yes that's well known that you cannot abort loops that neither allocate nor do IO
22:01:03 <oerjan> or at least it was last i heard
22:01:11 <elliott> but not on windows i guess
22:01:13 <elliott> since ^C sends a signal on unix
22:01:16 <elliott> and i doubt it does on windows
22:01:26 <elliott> so it'd have to have a keyboard input check in the native code, I guess
22:01:30 <elliott> rather than just in the allocator/IO
22:01:32 <elliott> which would be very slow ofc
22:01:39 <oerjan> well winghci has an abort button did you use that?
22:02:07 <elliott> yeah you can't ^C with ghcii.sh either
22:04:32 <oerjan> i'm trying now just setting up gvim with & in front like i did last time, to see if that's also fixed
22:05:40 <oerjan> elliott: it looks like both of the irritating bugs from last time have been fixed so i don't need any special .bat file :)
22:06:07 <elliott> oerjan: mwahahaha, we have forcibly pulled you into the 21st century!
22:06:17 <elliott> oerjan: when are you going to upload your cabalised packages to Hackage
22:06:31 <elliott> oerjan: that malbolge unshackled interpreter of yours -- should use bytestrings shouldn't it?
22:07:39 <elliott> oerjan: oh and really you should rewrite your programs to take advantage of fusion... and then compile them with the llvm backend
22:08:08 <oerjan> nao replacing winhugs desktop shortcut
22:08:48 <elliott> oerjan: but will you uninstall it, or are you keeping it around for remembering the good ol' days?
22:09:00 <oerjan> the scrolling bug came back
22:09:48 <oerjan> the window doesn't show the bottom of the screen and i cannot scroll to it
22:09:56 <oerjan> (including the prompt)
22:10:12 <elliott> oerjan: try pressing enter?
22:10:36 <oerjan> i restarted winghci, loaded my Basic file of simple functions and imports, and did a :bro(wse)
22:11:03 <oerjan> maximizing and unmaximizing worked
22:11:31 <oerjan> another :bro didn't mess it up again
22:12:07 <oerjan> i'm wondering... could it have anything to do with the font fallback you mentioned?
22:12:22 <elliott> oerjan: hm possibly, go into options and set it to a font you have
22:12:24 <oerjan> i'll try setting it to times new roman explicitly
22:12:39 <elliott> proportional fonts for haskell
22:12:45 <elliott> oerjan: good for you ghci doesn't do layout :P
22:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> At some point someone should really do that in-GHCi documentation thing.
22:13:28 <oerjan> elliott: hm that is a point, what did i have in winhugs...
22:13:41 <elliott> oerjan: courier new maybe?
22:13:52 <elliott> please don't tell me it's fixedsys :D
22:13:53 <pikhq> Huh... Now, APNIC, ARIN, *and* RIPE are eligible to allocate.
22:14:05 <elliott> oerjan: I set it manually to Arial because that's what my fallback became when i installed NanoXP
22:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Due to Chrome not letting me move my webcomic feed collection, I have forgotten to follow Darths & Droids for the last week or so.
22:14:22 <elliott> oerjan: well... i'm not going to let you use fixedsys with winghci
22:14:35 <elliott> Courier New 9pt is quite nice if a bit small ... and serifed
22:14:45 * oerjan sets winghci to courier new
22:15:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: USE GOOGLE READER OR USE AN RSS READER PROGRAM OR WHATEVER
22:15:15 <elliott> it took several seconds to start irssi
22:15:16 <oerjan> elliott: perhaps the proportional font messed it up, say by not being able to guess how big the lines were
22:15:36 <elliott> oerjan: possibly, although it looks like a fairly standard windows text control to me
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22:16:17 <elliottXP> Cygwin is /impressively/ slow, even; I wonder if I'm doin it rong
22:16:41 <quintopia> someone help me build a magical flying auto-targeting sword to kill people who don't like Lynyrd Skynyrd. And also everyone who refuses to help build it.
22:16:45 <elliottXP> oh, ghc.exe at 99% CPU might have something to do with it
22:16:50 <elliottXP> quintopia: um I don't like Lynyrd Skynyrd
22:17:00 * quintopia puts ehird at the top of the list of kill targets
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22:18:25 <pikhq> Because of the PS3 hack, the *PS2* is hacked pretty wide open, too.
22:18:30 <elliottXP> pikhq: HEY YOU, I GOT A WINDOWS XP ISO DOWN TO LESS THAN 200 MEGS
22:18:44 <elliottXP> _WITH_ THE CONVENIENT BROWSER SELECTION & DOWNLOAD INTERFACE KNOWN AS "INTERNET EXPLORER"
22:18:52 <pikhq> One of the PS2 signing keys is on the PS3.
22:18:55 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: but will you uninstall it, or are you keeping it around for remembering the good ol' days? <-- well it _was_ occasionally nice to be able to :f straight to a function's source
22:19:09 <pikhq> Yes, that's *3* systems cracked for the price of one.
22:19:14 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, also Bluray.
22:19:26 <elliottXP> oerjan: Well hey, if you use Emacs, then you can even click errors to go to (and highlight) the appropriate region of your code ...
22:19:56 <quintopia> what fraction of Sony's console sales are PS2?
22:20:10 <pikhq> quintopia: Now? Somewhat small.
22:20:12 <oerjan> <oerjan> elliott: indeed it is <-- that was in response to courier new btw, not fixedsys
22:20:30 <quintopia> so they probably don't care so much
22:20:35 <pikhq> quintopia: In the past? Well, it is the best selling console of all time.
22:20:56 <oerjan> <pikhq> Huh... Now, APNIC, ARIN, *and* RIPE are eligible to allocate. <-- uh oh. maybe someone did a behind the scenes deal for APNIC not to take all at once?
22:21:06 <pikhq> oerjan: Irrelevant.
22:21:07 <elliottXP> so hey guys, what ridiculously impractical program should I compile on Cygwin
22:21:26 <pikhq> oerjan: Whichever RIR asks for the smallest possible IANA allocation finishes the IPv4 space off.
22:21:49 <pikhq> oerjan: As the remainder of the IANA space gets split and handed to every RIR when that happens.
22:22:00 <quintopia> pikhq: point is, they don't care as much now as they would have 2 years ago
22:22:37 <pikhq> quintopia: Quite true.
22:22:44 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Due to Chrome not letting me move my webcomic feed collection, I have forgotten to follow Darths & Droids for the last week or so. <-- heh. i actually don't use feeds for my webcomics since i know when they all update. (i did use for oots when i followed that, since it's so irregular.)
22:22:50 <quintopia> elliottXP: it prevents a lot of headaches and competition
22:22:54 <pikhq> quintopia: However, this is *in addition* to the PSP and PS3 both being hacked forever and ever and ever.
22:23:07 <pikhq> quintopia: And Bluray being kinda-sorta hacked forever and ever and ever.
22:23:13 <elliottXP> I don't think the RIRs are that childish.
22:23:14 <quintopia> pikhq: and, we know they DO care about those
22:23:50 <elliottXP> you know what sucks? Xming's release policy
22:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, I do follow OOTS, although I'm beginning to wonder why, as well as Hark, A Vagrant, which is unquestionably worth reading.
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22:25:03 <quintopia> kate beaton is pretty much awesome
22:25:07 <oerjan> <elliottXP> oerjan: Well hey, if you use Emacs, then you can even click errors to go to (and highlight) the appropriate region of your code ... <-- i actually meant code to the haskell _libraries_ there, hugs is an interpreter so includes them.
22:25:47 <elliottXP> oerjan: ah. hm I don't know if ghc includes sources, but it would be cool if it did
22:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> She is literally the only person with a humanities degree who I respect.
22:25:54 <pikhq> quintopia: Perhaps the best bit is that Sony appears to be learning absolutely no lessons on how to do this "right".
22:26:01 <elliottXP> oerjan: interpreting haskell seems a bit weird, since you already need a typechecking stage :)
22:26:20 <quintopia> pikhq: well, no worries. eventually they'll get out of the console business and someone who doesn't suck will step in
22:26:30 <elliottXP> someone who doesn't suck will step in
22:26:31 <pikhq> "Someone who doesn't suck". Not going to happen.
22:26:36 <elliottXP> never have less probable words been uttered
22:26:42 <pikhq> The closest we have is Microsoft.
22:27:01 <quintopia> (even though whoever that is will eventually suck as much)
22:27:03 <elliottXP> quintopia: name a field of computing where suckage has gone down over time rather than up
22:27:06 <quintopia> (it's the natural order of things)
22:27:16 <oerjan> <pikhq> oerjan: Whichever RIR asks for the smallest possible IANA allocation finishes the IPv4 space off. <-- oh so asking for just one /8 isn't possible?
22:27:26 <quintopia> we're talking about an instantaneous change
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22:27:45 <elliottXP> because sony are going to go out of business overnight
22:27:49 <elliottXP> and PoopCorp Consoles will take their place
22:27:52 <quintopia> sony takes the suck to level 50. someone steps in who sucks 40 and takes it up to 90, when someone who sucks 80 steps in
22:28:21 <pikhq> oerjan: And asking for that /8 causes IANA to split up the remaining 6.
22:28:34 <elliottXP> oerjan: btw i'm almost done rewriting the log formatter :D
22:28:43 <elliottXP> just need to tune it up, attach it to http, ... other stuff ...
22:28:48 <quintopia> elliottXP: i really think poopcorp has a chance. if not, i'm out a lot of money cuz i bought so much POOP stock
22:29:04 <pikhq> So far we have both Nintendo and Sony doing *ridiculously* basic crypto fails...
22:29:27 <pikhq> Kinda surprised that Microsoft's not had anything like that happen.
22:29:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: mind you the feed for oots didn't actually _work_ for me, it kept readding old comics.
22:30:07 <pikhq> strcmp is *definitely* the right way to compare arbitrary blocks of memory containing binary data. *Definitely*.
22:30:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nintendo.
22:30:51 <elliottXP> Phantom_Hoover: The Japanese esoprogram constantly.
22:30:59 <elliottXP> PostScript esoprogramming is common in Japan but seemingly rare elsewhere.
22:31:07 <elliottXP> Also they're the top golfers (see golf.shinh.org)
22:31:14 <elliottXP> Japanese programmers are awesome :)
22:31:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That is the first arbitrary code execution exploit.
22:33:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: For the Wii.
22:33:10 <oerjan> <pikhq> oerjan: And asking for that /8 causes IANA to split up the remaining 6. <-- erm there are 5 RIRs not 6
22:33:39 <elliottXP> Phantom_Hoover: don't do that i don't have an interrobang here
22:33:39 <pikhq> oerjan: Mmm... Lemme check.
22:34:05 <Gregor> TIME TO SEE IF MY NEW JACKET IS IN
22:34:22 <pikhq> oerjan: Ah, sorry, s/6/5/, and APNIC is almost certainly going to request 2 /8s.
22:35:06 <oerjan> pikhq: well i suggested conspiratorially above that maybe they had made a deal to only take 1 and so to wait until the others could take the other
22:35:23 <elliottXP> oerjan: I think one /8 would cause division too
22:35:24 <pikhq> elliottXP: IANA will deny the request for, like, the first time ever.
22:35:30 <pikhq> elliottXP: They are capable of it.
22:35:40 <elliottXP> pikhq: it'd be hilarious to see them try though
22:35:42 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There's been several other exploits for the Wii, because the thing is coded in C.
22:35:47 <oerjan> elliottXP: if they took one /8 there would be 6 left, which is plainly not divisible by 5
22:35:53 <elliottXP> "HELLO, I would like THE REST OF THE INTERNET, thank you."
22:35:56 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And, as you can tell, Nintendo's coders aren't carefull...
22:36:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also, third-party coders are even less careful.
22:36:07 <elliottXP> pikhq: you're not very carefull with your spelling either
22:36:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There's probably hundreds of usable buffer overflow bugs.
22:36:25 <pikhq> elliottXP: Shaddup.
22:37:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Probably the funniest thing is how Nintendo fixed the savegame buffer overflow bug in Zelda...
22:37:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They added buffer checking for that specific game *into the system menu*.
22:38:19 <oerjan> <elliottXP> PostScript esoprogramming is common in Japan but seemingly rare elsewhere. <-- there's this guy at ntnu's math institute who i recall occasionally wrote things directly in postscript. well, i've also tried too.
22:38:58 <pikhq> coppro: Well, yes, there is nothing they can update for actual on-disc games.
22:39:01 <Gregor> NEW JACKET NEW JACKET NEW JACKET YESSSSS
22:39:30 <pikhq> They can't even update IOS.
22:39:52 <pikhq> (oh, yeah, the Wii actually *adds a new copy of IOS* when it adds features.)
22:40:22 <pikhq> Such a terrible architecture.
22:41:00 <Gregor> This jacket ... it has so many pockets ... <3
22:41:02 <oerjan> postscript feels like a sort of forth/logo hybrid
22:41:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:41:09 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, how I felt about swastikas
22:42:04 <Sgeo> That showed up properly in the pop-up thingy, but not in XChat itself
22:42:10 <Gregor> Crap I seriously need the pocket map X_X
22:42:34 <Sgeo> Unless the second char wasn't a weird unicode
22:42:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:42:52 <pikhq> The second character was the full-width question mark.
22:42:59 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, showing up just after the nick of time
22:45:06 -!- elliottXP_ has joined.
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22:45:37 <elliottXP_> in a feat never previously accomplished by oerjan, I have an irssi in a PuTTY terminal running natively on Windows without the requirement or lag of an SSH connetion
22:45:44 -!- BMG has quit (Changing host).
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22:46:19 <oerjan> elliottXP's a witch. burn him!
22:47:56 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:48:34 <elliottXP_> i bet oerjan's such a noob as to not even use nanoxp
22:48:35 -!- elliottXP has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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22:49:39 <elliottXP> Windows 3.1 GUI executable gvim##w16.zip and gvim##m16.zip
22:49:40 <elliottXP> These are GUI versions for 16 bit windows (Windows 3.1). The "w16" has many features, "m16" has few features (for when you're short on memory).
22:50:41 <elliottXP> oerjan: NanoXP is what happens when you give me nLite (Windows ISO customisation tool) and a healthy belief that almost all software is completely useless
22:51:01 <elliottXP> oerjan: It's a Windows XP ISO that's less than 200 megabytes and doesn't install things like "themes" and "things needed for printer support".
22:51:21 <elliottXP> But hey, it runs pretty quick and doesn't yell at you for not installing things it wants you to.
22:51:46 <elliottXP> http://java.com/en/ "JAVA + YOU, DOWNLOAD TODAY!"
22:52:09 <elliottXP> Never before has a virtual machine been so aggressively, or badly, marketed.
22:53:04 <elliottXP> Hey, installing Windows is the key to getting a swatter.
22:54:14 <Gregor> lol, this jacket has an excellent spot for everything except my wallet :P
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22:54:50 <elliottXP> Sgeo: 23:01 < elliottXP> oerjan: NanoXP is what happens when you give me nLite
22:54:50 <elliottXP> (Windows ISO customisation tool) and a healthy belief that
22:54:51 <elliottXP> almost all software is completely useless
22:54:51 <elliottXP> 23:01 < elliottXP> oerjan: It's a Windows XP ISO that's less than 200 megabytes
22:54:54 <elliottXP> and doesn't install things like "themes" and "things needed
22:54:59 <elliottXP> 23:01 < elliottXP> But hey, it runs pretty quick and doesn't yell at you for
22:55:02 <elliottXP> not installing things it wants you to.
22:55:26 <elliottXP> Hey, Java didn't tell me that by installing Java, I will be able to experience the power of Java, brought to me by Sun Microsystems, Inc.
22:55:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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22:57:25 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:57:27 <oerjan> it is oracle now. you are utterly powerless. *MWAHAHAHA*
22:57:30 -!- augur has joined.
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23:00:03 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin_himsel.
23:00:07 -!- copumpkin_himsel has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:04:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:06:32 <elliott> does anyone know how to get opengl working in virtualbox?
23:07:07 -!- comex has joined.
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23:16:44 <tswett> "alaskausa" looks like a Finnish word.
23:17:12 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en alaskausa
23:17:41 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en kausa
23:17:44 <tswett> It's not a Finnish word, though.
23:18:02 <HackEgo> Alaska's primary provider of consumer credit and one of the State's largest financial institutions with branches across Alaska and Washington. AlaskaUSA ... \ www.alaskausa.org/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar
23:21:15 -!- elliottXP has joined.
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23:23:51 <Sgeo> elliott, so DS9 supposedly gets more storyline based in season 3 and beyond?
23:24:08 <elliottXP> Sgeo: It's all storyline, all the time.
23:25:57 -!- augur has joined.
23:26:07 <quintopia> Sgeo: but as soon as other members of Odo's people start showing up, it gets more coherent
23:26:14 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:27:29 <elliottXP> quintopia: Pretty good criteria for a name :P
23:27:52 <quintopia> yes, but it is also a poor choice for a name
23:28:08 <quintopia> since it traditionally refers to demon babies left in cribs to replace stolen human babies
23:28:30 <elliottXP> Uh oh, it's getting to the point where I've made Windows comfortable enough and the memories of battling with my GHC installation are still fresh enough in my mind to feel vaguely good about this installation ...
23:28:57 <olsner> elliott: uh oh, this is not a sign of anything good
23:29:12 <quintopia> elliottXP: be afraid. be very afraid. it's like a tootsie roll pop. too many licks and you will bite it. or it may bite you!
23:30:02 <elliottXP> olsner: don't worry -- as soon as I realise how fucking _slow_ Cygwin is and always will be, it'll subside
23:30:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:30:39 * oerjan recalls when he was young he used to eat the paper of the stick after eating the lollipop candy
23:30:54 <olsner> that seems like a common thing to do
23:31:16 <olsner> I never did it obviously, I realized that it was not a part of the candy and learned to throw it away
23:31:32 <elliottXP> olsner: also, once I realise that editing things like "C:\Users\Elliott\Application Data\cabal\config" is going to get really tedious quickly
23:31:35 <oerjan> (the paper the stick was made of, not the wrapping paper)
23:31:38 <elliottXP> oh wait, I can make a symlink ~/appdata
23:32:09 <olsner> symlinks only work in cygwin though, windows programs won't be able to use it
23:32:23 <elliottXP> olsner: yeah, but that doesn't exactly matter
23:32:39 <elliottXP> olsner: %APPDATA% works in Win32 :P
23:32:40 <olsner> (junction points can be used similarly to symlinks if you need windows support, but cygwin doesn't support them properly)
23:32:50 <elliottXP> well cygwin doesn't support anything properly.
23:32:54 <elliottXP> it's pretty much a failure at life.
23:32:56 <olsner> but $APPDATA doesn't work in cygwin?
23:33:08 <olsner> (of course not, it's cygwin...)
23:33:12 <elliottXP> olsner: well. it points to the C:\foo style path
23:33:15 <elliottXP> i dunno if cygwin progs will like that
23:33:33 <elliottXP> olsner: oh actually $ nano "$APPDATA/cabal/config" works
23:33:35 <olsner> it translates the PATH automagically
23:33:48 <elliottXP> does need quoting though thanks to windows spaces in filenames
23:33:58 <elliottXP> ofc gvim can just use $APPDATA too IIRC
23:34:09 <olsner> oh right, lots of cygwin stuff actually work with windows paths too iirc
23:34:21 <olsner> for other stuff and/or scripts you can use cygpath
23:35:03 <elliottXP> olsner: I've made progfiles be C:\Programs and Documents and Settings be C:\Users, so at least typing in paths isn't quite so tedious
23:36:11 <elliottXP> olsner: I have a feeling 2004-vintage Interix might be better than Cygwin
23:36:19 <elliottXP> because it, you know, actually uses a kernel subsystem to do this shit
23:36:28 <elliottXP> rather than a bad, rickety user-space impl
23:36:42 <elliottXP> lol gvim.bat in cygwin ignores my vimrc
23:38:15 <olsner> elliottXP: is any of that unix-on-windows stuff free?
23:38:25 <olsner> elliottXP: $HOME is different under cygwin
23:38:54 <olsner> and the cmd that runs the bat inherits its environment from cygwin
23:39:49 <elliottXP> olsner: Yes, Microsoft-supported Interix is free.
23:39:57 <elliottXP> Ships with, you know, gcc 3.3! You can run Gentoo Prefix on it I think.
23:42:15 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
23:44:46 <pikhq> elliottXP: Or Debian.
23:44:56 <olsner> hmm, I might be replacing some cygwin crap with that then
23:45:29 <elliottXP> olsner: last release 2004, supported until 2011 only iirc
23:45:37 <elliottXP> olsner: later releases integrated into Windows Server I think but no standalone download
23:45:46 <elliottXP> olsner: OTOH, POSIX doesn't really change much, so you could rip out the whole userland
23:46:06 <elliottXP> olsner: but note that it's a totally different kernel subsystem to Win32 -- i.e. there is literally no interaction with Win32
23:46:25 <pikhq> elliottXP: It's also available for Vista and Windows 7... For free.
23:46:29 <elliottXP> but then, you don't really need it
23:47:26 <pikhq> Ah, sorry, it's *included* in Vista and 7 Ultimate and Enterprise.
23:47:28 -!- variable has left (?).
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23:47:36 <olsner> elliottXP: not even starting windows programs?
23:47:37 <pikhq> But not standalone.
23:47:48 <elliottXP> olsner: the lengthy corporate name to google is "Windows Services for UNIX"
23:48:13 <pikhq> elliottXP: "Subsystem for UNIX-based Applications" post-XP.
23:48:17 <elliottXP> olsner: notably, I think it has a fast fork(), thanks to being an actual kernel (well, kernel-on-a-kernel)
23:48:30 <elliottXP> pikhq: Yeah, but post-XP versions aren't downloadable.
23:48:43 <olsner> hmm, meh, there are easier ways to get rid of cygwin
23:49:11 <pikhq> http://www.debian-interix.net/
23:49:32 <olsner> for this particular purpose, rewriting a bunch of shell scripts in (e.g.) python
23:49:33 <pikhq> Not an official port, but it's a functional one.
23:49:57 <pikhq> elliottXP: That's Debian Stable right now.
23:50:02 <elliottXP> without cygwin you don't have a shell
23:50:04 <pikhq> elliottXP: Anyways, I could swear there's a more recent one. :/
23:50:24 <elliottXP> pikhq: pretty sure subsystem for unix based applications is Server editions only
23:50:44 <pikhq> elliottXP: No. No it isn't.
23:51:20 <pikhq> Argh, yeah, that Debian port is no longer maintained.
23:52:05 <pikhq> The Gentoo one is.
23:56:03 <pikhq> Gentoo Prefix apparently also supports Win32?
23:58:16 <pikhq> I am attempting to find details.
00:01:24 <pikhq> In addition to Cygwin...
00:01:36 <pikhq> No. I don't know either.
00:01:49 <elliottXP> (AutoHotKey script that makes Win+K empty the recycle bin.)
00:02:23 <elliottXP> pikhq: So... got a link? I'm willing to try that out.
00:03:08 <pikhq> elliottXP: I haven't a clue how to use it.
00:03:27 <pikhq> elliottXP: All I know is they've got a shell script that bootstraps it.
00:03:39 <pikhq> elliottXP: I don't know how you're supposed to run that shell script without a shell.
00:04:24 <pikhq> elliottXP: http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/alt/browser/trunk/prefix-overlay/scripts/bootstrap-prefix.sh?format=txt
00:04:47 <pikhq> (see private message)
00:05:15 <cheater99> let's rewrite all of minecraft in sql!!!
00:05:34 * cheater99 is content having finally come up with the dumbest idea ever.
00:06:33 <elliottXP> pikhq: Won't this just compile all that shit with Cygwin?
00:06:38 <elliottXP> pikhq: How can I tell it I want a Win32 build?
00:07:11 <elliottXP> profile="${PORTDIR}/profiles/prefix/windows/interix/${C$
00:07:14 <pikhq> elliottXP: Uh... Should be an extra argument to the script.
00:07:19 <elliottXP> profile="${PORTDIR}/profiles/prefix/windows/winnt/${CHO$
00:07:27 <elliottXP> profile="${PORTDIR}/profiles/prefix/windows/cygwin/${CH$
00:07:33 <elliottXP> pikhq: I somehow doubt this will work ...
00:10:08 <pikhq> Good God there's a lot of stuff to bootstrap Gentoo Prefix.
00:10:46 <cheater99> hey oerjan i have something for you
00:10:48 <cheater99> http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Spicy-Cock-Soup-1-7oz/dp/B002Q46EH6/
00:11:51 <oerjan> elliottXP: um cheater99 started it
00:12:10 <elliottXP> oh did i, i wasn't paying attention
00:12:18 <elliottXP> oerjan: can you kick him, that would be great, thanks
00:12:30 <cheater99> oerjan: you can kick me in the ballz
00:12:31 <oerjan> elliottXP: i'll decide after visiting that link
00:12:43 <cheater99> oerjan: i'm quite into trampling today
00:13:01 <cheater99> elliottXP: i have a hunch he'd very much enjoy that topic...
00:13:18 <Gregor> Is cock soup somehow distinct from chicken soup ...?
00:13:23 <elliottXP> oerjan: oh please, just kick him and end our national nightmare
00:13:39 <elliottXP> lol cygwin bash fails at wrapping lines
00:13:45 <cheater99> elliottXP: what does this have to do with nationality?
00:14:08 <oerjan> elliottXP: ok i find the link to be insufficient reason for kicking
00:14:29 <cheater99> oerjan: do you find elliottXP's moaning to be sufficient reason?
00:14:36 <Gregor> I am seriously intrigued :P
00:14:44 <Gregor> I want to know why cock soup is different from chicken soup.
00:14:56 <Gregor> Unless the product actually /is/ a joke.
00:15:07 <elliottXP> oerjan: well cheater99 molested me you see.
00:15:19 <cheater99> elliottXP: you have such a slender bum
00:15:22 <Gregor> cheater99: Yes, but why would that make any difference?
00:15:33 <pikhq> There is actually a "cock-a-leekie soup".
00:15:37 <elliottXP> oerjan: also, I'm going to cry every day unless you kickban cheater99. (if you kickban me, I will continue to whine every day until cheater99 is kickbanned)
00:15:38 <Gregor> Do cocks and hens really taste so different in soup form?
00:15:53 <pikhq> Gregor: Not really.
00:15:58 <elliottXP> oerjan: hey you may appreciate :list foo in ghci
00:16:05 <elliottXP> oerjan: it shows the lines that define foo in a loaded module
00:16:30 -!- cheater99 has changed nick to chelliot.
00:16:50 <chelliot> i'm a cheater trappend in an elliott's body!
00:17:02 <oerjan> elliottXP: only for interpreted modules, alas
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00:17:16 <elliottXP> oerjan: clear impersonation, please kickban chelliot
00:17:30 <chelliot> oerjan: could compiled modules not have relevant meta data in them?
00:17:38 <elliottXP> if you give me a reason you consider adequate I can endeavour to make them come true
00:17:39 -!- amca has joined.
00:17:51 <oerjan> chelliot: _source_ metadata?
00:17:58 <elliottXP> oerjan: see, he's an idiot. kickban him.
00:18:15 <oerjan> it's not like they're not bloated already
00:18:34 <chelliot> oerjan: python modules contain source meta data after compilation
00:18:46 <chelliot> elliottXP: i'm bloated after molestating you
00:18:48 <elliottXP> chelliot just suggested that Python does anything that could even remotely be considered compilation.
00:19:12 <chelliot> elliottXP: i am michael jackson, you are macaulay culkin
00:19:28 <elliottXP> oerjan: kickban chelliot because he keeps pinging me
00:20:31 <chelliot> elliottXP: you're clearly impersonating windows xp..
00:20:36 <quintopia> elliottXP: he's an exception to the /ignoring people is more annoying than it's worth rule. no one talks to him anyway. go for it.
00:21:10 <elliottXP> quintopia: oh I do ignore him on my main client, it's just that while I can see his messages, I might as well try and get him kickbanned before resorting to ignoring him
00:21:22 <elliottXP> i think he's the only person in here that more than one person ignores
00:21:28 -!- augur has joined.
00:21:46 <chelliot> elliottXP: do your separate split personalities count as separate persons?
00:22:05 <EgoBot> 76 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.+.++++++++++++++.-.++++++.-------.++.>. [189]
00:22:28 <elliottXP> oerjan: we'd buy you a cake if you got rid of him.
00:23:01 <elliottXP> quintopia: can you bake one cake, to make it three?
00:23:36 <j-invariant> !bf_txtgen aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:23:38 <chelliot> elliottXP: he doesn't want to get fat and depressed like a certain person
00:23:41 <EgoBot> 277 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>-...>>-....<-..<..>..<..>..<..>......<.....<-.>..........>>.......<.<...>...<....>.......<...>..<.......<........>.......>..<.<...>...---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. [898]
00:24:01 <oerjan> j-invariant: that was underwhelming :D
00:24:10 <elliottXP> oerjan: kick him for being a poophead
00:24:40 <quintopia> what the fuck egobot? someone reimplement bf_txtgen plox
00:24:45 <chelliot> that's the funny thing about it
00:25:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Kicking myself out of this madness).
00:25:47 <quintopia> next time try reasonable human created heuristics combined by learning with boosting
00:26:24 <Mathnerd314> just use a compression algorithm + implement in BF
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00:27:08 <quintopia> most of the time that'd be rubbish Mathnerd314
00:27:10 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: it sucks that that would work better
00:27:36 <j-invariant> how many strings of text are the shortest BF programs that generate them known?
00:28:09 <j-invariant> what's the longest string for which the shortest program is known?
00:28:17 <quintopia> very few? like...the first 20 characters tops :P
00:28:30 <quintopia> after that it gets too hard to prove
00:28:49 <elliottXP> it's essentially busy beaver. i think
00:29:03 <j-invariant> I wonder how hard it would be to push that limit
00:29:14 <j-invariant> I really do want to see the first nontrivial brainfuck program to deal with
00:29:16 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure that as soon as it's long enough to implement multiplication in, we have no idea
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00:45:46 <elliottXP> j-invariant: want a ban? i could convince copumpkin :D
00:46:06 <j-invariant> elliottXP: well you could ban Axman and monochrom and a bunch of other peopel
00:47:04 <copumpkin> no, I am not, and several other people don't believe in it
00:47:12 <elliottXP> copumpkin: I'll have you know that #esoteric has an inalienable right and tradition of talking behind people's backs without consequences
00:47:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:47:33 <elliottXP> for instance, copumpkin is a poopy head
00:48:17 <elliottXP> 16:41:14 <j-invariant> Any tips on brainfuck termination checker
00:48:19 <elliottXP> 6: are you using Unicode symbols in your source code?
00:48:30 <elliottXP> 16:41:33 <Entroacceptor> j-invariant: it's theoretically impossible
00:48:35 <elliottXP> 16:41:41 <j-invariant> wow you guys are not that smart
00:48:36 <elliottXP> 16:41:45 <j-invariant> I thought #haskell was really clever
00:48:45 <elliottXP> j-invariant: protip: being a jerk to someone who said something entirely correct isn't a good idea
00:48:52 <elliottXP> j-invariant: you could have phrased your question better
00:49:08 <copumpkin> termination checker doesn't imply halting problem
00:49:11 <elliottXP> like "any tips on a brainfuck termination checker (that doesn't work in all cases, just a large number)?"
00:49:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:49:26 <copumpkin> I'm with j-invariant on this one, but I just think his attitude needs some adjustment
00:49:30 <elliottXP> j-invariant: since a ton of people don't realise you _can't_ solve the halting problem and really DO want to write a perfect termination checker
00:49:37 <elliottXP> you have to get past people's moron filters
00:50:29 <copumpkin> I honestly think he has me on ignore though
00:50:57 <elliottXP> j-invariant: you wouldn't happen to have copumpkin on ignore?
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00:53:16 <Sgeo> "The price is too damned high"
00:53:31 <Sgeo> I didn't know Jimmy McMillan was on Star Trek
00:54:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:54:39 <j-invariant> 01:04 -!- mode/#haskell [+o monochrom] by ChanServ
00:54:40 <j-invariant> 01:04 -!- degaus [50d448d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.212.72.208] has left #haskell [requested by monochrom (degaus)]
00:55:35 <copumpkin> [08:03:14 PM] <degaus> it must be more popular
00:55:35 <copumpkin> [08:03:26 PM] <degaus> because dons never talks about anything else
00:56:16 <elliottXP> Sometimes I forget that dons actually does cool stuff and isn't just a marketroid
00:56:54 <elliottXP> I have a feeling he puts more people off Haskell than encourages :P
00:57:11 <j-invariant> I hate this "pattern match" thinking that IRC encourages
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01:02:27 <Sgeo> This permanent seeming action cannot be permanent
01:02:41 <Sgeo> Why am I surprised when shows do permanent-seeming actions
01:02:57 <Sgeo> elliottXP, not a person (well, a person too)
01:03:26 <j-invariant> Sgeo: what I don't get is why permanent changes are such a problem?
01:03:46 <j-invariant> Sgeo: do they make a whole bunch of episodes in a random order then shuffle them and decide this one goes before that?
01:03:51 <Sgeo> j-invariant, because with this change there would be no show
01:04:02 <Sgeo> So clearly it's not actually occuring
01:04:06 <Sgeo> It still weirds me out
01:04:13 <elliottXP> j-invariant: DS9 subverts that by having actual plotlines
01:04:30 <elliottXP> j-invariant: the avoidance of change is mostly so that random syndication works and also so that you don't have to remember tons of canon to write an episode
01:04:51 <j-invariant> oh and so that people can join late to watch your series
01:05:19 <Sgeo> If I waited a few minute
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01:07:07 <pikhq> j-invariant: It's a fairly common thing in US TV, especially as shows tend to last several seasons.
01:11:59 <j-invariant> I have this wonderful vision of a site which shows the nth brainfuck program.. and if anyone submits a proof that it terminates or does not terminate then it moves the n+1th
01:13:01 <Sgeo> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8137688?dopt=Abstract
01:13:08 <elliottXP> j-invariant: why, I wrote a program to get the nth brainfuck program! ;)
01:13:39 <j-invariant> elliottXP: the point is finding the first brainfuck program that nobody knows how to decide
01:13:52 <j-invariant> I believe this program is very interesting
01:14:58 <j-invariant> I just don't know how many months I would have to work on refining and refining a termination checker to find it
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01:15:59 <td123> is there a fork bomb for brainfuck?
01:16:10 <td123> is it even possible?
01:17:11 <Sgeo> I still have trouble with the Y-combinator
01:17:42 <j-invariant> Sgeo: the Y-combinator is simple got any questions?
01:18:11 <Sgeo> bomb() -> spawn(fun bomb/1, []), spawn(fun bomb/1, []).
01:18:19 * Sgeo probably screwed that up
01:18:56 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Erlang?
01:19:16 <Sgeo> And I want to know how to do that without the named function, which is why I asked after the Y combinator
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01:24:48 <j-invariant> elliottXP: Example of how stupid people are:
01:24:49 <j-invariant> 01:34 < j-invariant> Does anyone know any good software for C which tries to decide if your program terminates or not
01:24:52 <j-invariant> 01:34 < j-invariant> I need a free software
01:25:27 <j-invariant> even the people that hang around in programming channels on IRC don't know anything
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01:29:19 <Sgeo> j-invariant, maybe CaZe was, you know, JOKING
01:29:21 <copumpkin> j-invariant: it's sophomoric computer science
01:29:47 <copumpkin> they hear "halts" and parrot "impossible"
01:29:57 <j-invariant> maybe I should use rewrite systems instead of BF
01:30:01 <Gregor> Soundfonts suck at strings X_X
01:30:55 <quintopia> also, gregor, that's because ADSR fail
01:31:03 <Sgeo> Wait, did I fall for what copumpkin said idiots fall for?
01:31:05 <j-invariant> I stoped caring about spiked math when it made that stupid mistake a while back
01:31:07 * Sgeo dies a little inside
01:31:15 <Sgeo> stupid mistake?
01:31:30 <quintopia> j-invariant: fine. but give me a hint how to do this one plox?
01:32:31 <Sgeo> j-invariant, ok, what's the thing? That you're asking for programs written in C? Or that you said "tries"?
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01:36:24 <Gregor> quintopia: VSTi's do strings OK, but it's difficult to mix and match X_X
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01:44:03 <quintopia> now how do i do arbitrary precision arithmetic to calculate the actual answer
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02:12:37 <j-invariant> http://spikedmath.com/358.html haha that's a good one
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03:02:26 <Gregor> Why must DSSI/VST/Rosegarden be 100% non-automatable X_X
03:02:37 <Gregor> I don't like anything that I can't type "make" to build
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03:27:10 <Gregor> Where's my goddamn shell.
03:28:27 <pikhq> I don't *hate* GUIs.
03:28:50 <pikhq> I just have yet to see one I'm actually enthusiastic about.
03:29:17 <quintopia> i made a GUI IDE I didn't hate once.
03:32:09 * Sgeo clicks the Build menu
03:32:18 * Sgeo clicks Compile and Run ( Ctrl-F5 )
03:32:34 * Sgeo completely neglects the existence of keyboard shortcuts
03:33:09 <Sgeo> Although I guess that's not as not knowing Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V
03:33:14 <Sgeo> My a key is being weird
03:33:26 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't allow crumbs to get near the keybord
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04:00:22 <zzo38> Does Google Chrome have a maximum line length for received data?
04:04:07 <augur> j-invariant didnt understand that the halting problem isnt a problem with turing machines alone? ahahaha
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04:12:47 <quintopia> you haven't read enough of the discussion then
04:13:03 <augur> i only read a tiny bit of it
04:13:09 <quintopia> summary: he is bad at asking for what he really wants
04:13:27 <augur> but what i did see was his agreeing that it was about halting behavior, but then complaining that hes not talking about turing machines
04:13:34 <augur> and why is everyone talking about turing machines
04:13:54 <quintopia> because he wasn't looking for a halting decider
04:14:11 <quintopia> he was looking for a halting predictor for specific languages
04:15:19 <pikhq> Namely, he was wanting something entirely doable: a function that accurately returns {Halts, Doesn't halt, I don't know}.
04:16:09 <Sgeo> Isn't there something along the lines of algorithmically determining that such a thing is such a thing is also impossible?
04:18:02 <quintopia> *deciding* whether an algorithm has non-trivial property X is impossible
04:18:14 <quintopia> you can make as many recognizers as you want
04:18:41 <augur> i love that its decidable that some things are undecidable
04:19:04 <quintopia> because decidability of non-trivial properties is a trivial property
04:19:07 <augur> or that you can prove that you cant prove something
04:19:12 <quintopia> all non-trivial properties are undecidable
04:19:40 <augur> like, it's possible to prove the existence of unprovable propositions
04:20:19 <augur> and there are provably unprovable propositions about that proposition as well
04:20:41 <augur> its like some power tower of provable unprovability!
04:20:58 <Sgeo> Provably unprovable propositions can be false [I hope]
04:21:44 <Sgeo> People seem to talk about provably unprovable, but true, propositions a lot
04:22:32 <augur> any provably unprovably false proposition is a negation of a provably unprovably true proposition!
04:23:11 <Sgeo> Surely it's possible that there are provably unprovable, but potentially disprovable, statements?
04:23:12 <quintopia> do you even know what you're saying?
04:23:27 <pikhq> I suspect Sgeo is word-vomiting.
04:23:38 <augur> and i can provide you with logical forms in at least two semantic formalisms.
04:23:46 <augur> Sgeo: no certainly not
04:24:01 <augur> if a statement is disprovable then its negation is provable
04:24:11 <augur> since disproof of P is proof of not P
04:24:22 <augur> making the initial statement provable
04:24:27 <Sgeo> But its negation doesn't necessarily need to be provable
04:24:30 <augur> and so its false that its provably unprovable
04:24:31 <Sgeo> Is wht I meant
04:24:47 <augur> but ofcourse that could just be a proof that leads to a contradiction!
04:24:55 <augur> so its inconsistent but complete!
04:25:14 <quintopia> well, Gdel's sentence is both true and not provable. It doesn't even make sense to talk about sentences that are false and not provable...
04:25:18 <Sgeo> If a statement is disprovable, then its negation is provable. But its negation doesn't need to be disprovable, does it?
04:25:34 <augur> we dont know if its sentence is true or not, quintopia
04:25:51 <Sgeo> quintopia, A^~A is false and, assuming consistency, not provable
04:26:33 <Sgeo> We shouldn't be able to prove that a sentence is a Godel sentence... I think
04:26:44 <Sgeo> That would be tantamount to a proof of the sentence?
04:27:01 <augur> Sgeo: disprovable(S) = provable(~S) = ~provable(S)
04:27:22 <augur> therefore disprovable(~S) = ~provable(~S) = ~disprovable(S)
04:27:44 <augur> so if S is disprovable, its negation must NOT be disprovable
04:28:02 <Sgeo> I don't get how you got provable(~S) = ~provable(S)
04:28:25 <augur> i think we can agree that disprovable(S) = provable(~S)
04:28:28 <Sgeo> I think I'm working off a different definition of "provable" than.. is correct
04:28:31 <augur> and that disprovable(S) = ~provable(S)
04:28:47 <Sgeo> By provable, I meant not proven to not be provable
04:29:01 <Sgeo> Not necessarily true
04:29:02 <quintopia> augur: yes we do. G translates to "G is not provable in this system" Assume it is false. then, G is provable in this system. therefore, G is true. Contradiction. Now, assume it is true. We can't prove it, but there is no contradiction. Hence, it must be true.
04:29:06 <augur> and thus nonsensical
04:29:18 <pikhq> augur: It does not follow that something being disprovable means that something is *not* provable.
04:29:36 <augur> but thats what disprovable means!
04:29:48 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait, dur. Sorry. I'm stupid. Carry on.
04:29:59 <Sgeo> I think augur's definition of provable relies on the provable statement being tre
04:30:05 <Sgeo> That's what was headaching me
04:30:14 <augur> it depends i suppose on whether you mean "dis-" in the metaphysical sense or the epistemological sense
04:30:42 <Sgeo> Just, forget everything I said. I think.
04:30:54 <augur> because you can say "disprovable" as in we dont know whether or not something is true, but we know for certain that we could find out SOMEHOW
04:30:59 <Sgeo> pikhq, did you fall into the same trap I did?
04:31:05 <pikhq> Sgeo: Who the hell are you?
04:31:24 <augur> but you can also say "disprovable" as in we have a way to disprove this proposition.
04:32:30 <augur> so on the one hand, "P = NP" is a provable/disprovable proposition
04:32:49 <Sgeo> "It doesn't even make sense to talk about sentences that are false and not provable..."
04:32:54 <Sgeo> This STILL makes no sense
04:32:54 <augur> we dont know if its true or false, but the truth or falsity of it is (afaik) possible to prove
04:33:16 <Sgeo> The quoted text, I mean
04:33:24 <augur> but on the other hand, "P = NP" is neither provable nor disprovable, in the sense that we dont have the ability to give you that proof right now
04:33:32 <augur> obviously this is a fact about the notion of "ability"
04:33:46 <augur> and the same semantic ambiguity relates to modal verbs like "can"
04:42:00 <Gregor> OK, so soundfonts can do woodwinds decently, and brass acceptably, VSTi's can do strings quite well but are a huge pain in the arse, and bleh.
04:43:42 * Sgeo is too tired for this shist
04:44:22 <Gregor> augur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundFont
04:50:41 <Gregor> augur: See http://codu.org/music/e/superturing/superturing.ogg :P
04:52:29 <augur> able to leap tall call stacks in a single bound, its: Super-Turing!
04:52:52 <Gregor> "The theme music for SuperTuring, the newest (and best) superhero. Spider-Man may have spider powers, and Superman may have super-strength, but only SuperTuring can solve the halting problem! "
04:54:38 <augur> that music sucks btw
04:55:46 <pikhq> ... Is that Prelude in a different key on the harp? Seriously, WTF?
04:56:23 <pikhq> Also, electric guitar and MIDI = OUCH
04:56:34 <Gregor> pikhq: Electric guitar and VSTi also = ouch.
04:56:48 <Gregor> And no, that's not Prelude at all, not all arpeggios are Prelude.
04:57:19 <pikhq> CLEARLY UEMATSU INVENTED THE ARPEGGIO.
04:59:01 <Gregor> augur: ITYM "That music is so awesome it changed my life forever"
04:59:22 <augur> i dont speak obscure acronym
04:59:33 <Gregor> "I Think You Mean" is not an obscure acronym
05:03:22 <zzo38> Do you have a computer which is as fast as Superman to convert Celsius/Fahrenheit?
05:03:38 <Gregor> SuperTuring transcends clock speed.
05:04:23 <Sgeo> Gregor, can SuperTuring decide whether SuperTuring will ever die?
05:04:50 <Sgeo> So, SuperTuring is SuperSuperTurinng
05:04:53 <Sgeo> How incredible
05:05:02 <zzo38> You cannot have a computer like SuperTuring, because no actually built physical computer is even quite Turing, either.
05:05:15 <augur> Gregor: i can assure you i didnt mean that.
05:05:38 <Gregor> augur: I am quite certain that you did.
05:10:55 <zzo38> What I want you do today? Make a linear-scale music, meaning that the notes are 100Hz, 200Hz, 300Hz, 400Hz, 500Hz, and so on.
05:13:17 <Gregor> pikhq: He meant "this music is so awesome it changed my life forever", right?
05:14:33 <Gregor> Well, I have two non-fans X-P
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05:21:59 <Gregor> calamari: http://codu.org/music/e/superturing/superturing.ogg
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05:28:26 * calamari solves the halting problem with ease
05:29:35 <Gregor> For all but the true SuperTuring, the effect is temporary.
05:30:49 <Sgeo> Gregor, the beginning sounds like you stole it from Falcon's Eye
05:31:08 <Gregor> Considering that I have no idea what that is, I'm gonna go with "no"
05:31:19 <Sgeo> I think it's the similar instruments
05:31:57 <Sgeo> http://users.tkk.fi/jtpelto2/nethack.html
05:43:18 <zzo38> Gregor: Can you write any John Stump style music?
06:04:17 <zzo38> What size of chapter headings should I use (from \magstep1 to \magstep5)?
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07:02:30 <Ilari> Just for fun, looking at allocations during 2010 (IPv4 addresses in /32s, IPv6 addresses in /64s):
07:03:13 <Ilari> IANA (direct): 0 IPv4, 0 IPv6
07:06:12 <pikhq> IANA has ceased to do direct allocations.
07:11:50 <Ilari> AFRINIC: IPv4: 8 520 960, 446 677 516 288 IPv6.
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07:13:37 <Ilari> LACNIC: 17 278 976 IPv4, 197 569 937 408 IPv6.
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07:16:06 <Ilari> RIPE NCC: 56 761 248 IPv4, 8 027 328 217 088 IPv6.
07:17:00 <Ilari> ARIN: 45 240 832 IPv4, 2 508 420 284 416 IPv6.
07:18:01 <Ilari> APNIC: 120 926 208 IPv4, 13 920 020 267 008 IPv6.
07:18:09 <pikhq> APNIC now at 1.38 /8s...
07:20:48 <Ilari> All RIRs combined except APNIC: 127 802 016 IPv4, 11 179 995 955 200 IPv6.
07:22:39 <Ilari> So APNIC allocated 48.6% of the total IPv4 space allocated last year and 55.5% of the total IPv6 space allocated last year.
07:24:38 <Ilari> One of the reasons for relatively low amount of IPv6 allocations might be that LACNIC region has extensive LIR system and some of those (especially Brazil) hold amazing amounts of IPv6 address space.
07:26:28 <pikhq> Seems kinda odd that it's that low for APNIC, also.
07:27:01 <pikhq> Given that much of Asia is actually on the ball with IPv6 adoption.
07:27:06 <Ilari> Actually only brazil there holds amazing amount of IPv6 address space, but that number is really amazing: Almost the same amount as rest of the world _combined_.
07:27:40 <pikhq> For instance, end user IPv6 has been easily available in Japan for 11 years now...
07:27:44 <Ilari> Err... 13.9 billion is more than rest of the world combined...
07:27:57 <Ilari> So they are allocating IPv6 a lot.
07:28:15 <pikhq> Well, all those numbers are going to be shooting way the hell up in the next couple of years.
07:28:18 <Ilari> Oops, 13.9 trillion
07:29:21 <pikhq> Well, actually, we'll probably see much less allocation of IPv6, relatively speaking, just because even a /48 is a *gigantic* allocation for anyone not actually running an ISP.
07:29:49 <Ilari> The standard for ISP is /32. And large ISP get blocks even larger than that...
07:31:35 <Ilari> Even IPv6 /32 is more network addresses than there are total host addresses in the entiere IPv4...
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07:33:32 <Ilari> That's IPv4 mentality... :-)
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07:34:07 <pikhq> No, really, it's ::ffff:0:0:0/96. :P
07:34:08 <Ilari> Note that I said "network address" about IPv6 and "host address" about IPv4.
07:34:59 <Ilari> It has some magic properties as address in some TCP/IP stacks (at least the one in Linux)...
07:35:51 <pikhq> It's intended to be a hook for magic properties in interacting between IPv4 and IPv6.
07:39:48 <fizzie> It's ::ffff:0:0/96; with 0:0:0 you'd have 48 bits of zeroes.
07:40:01 <fizzie> Alternatively, ::ffff:0.0.0.0/96, but that's just ugly.
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07:40:43 <pikhq> No, it's actually intended to have 48 bits of zeroes. (RFC 2765)
07:41:26 <fizzie> Oh, that's the IPv4-translated block.
07:41:28 <pikhq> Though ::ffff:0:0/96 is *another* form of IPv4 onto IPv6 mapping.
07:41:53 <pikhq> Gah, the transition methods are non-trivial.
07:42:07 <fizzie> The latter is what an IPv6 socket that has accepted an IPv4 connection returns for the peer address.
07:45:09 <fizzie> The whole "IPv6 wildcard-address-bound sockets also accept IPv4" thing is very messy. On Linux the port addresses are shared, so if you bind to IN6ADDR_ANY:1234 you can't bind to INADDR_ANY:1234 later, unless you setsockopt IPV6_V6ONLY on the v6 socket; on Windows it's similar except V6ONLY is set by default; on OS X you can bind to both, and the magical map-to-the-v6-socket only happens if there is no corresponding bound v4 socket.
07:46:18 <fizzie> And I think on some BSDs they don't (by default) map v4 connections to IN6ADDR_ANY v6 sockets at all.
07:46:50 <fizzie> Solaris at least treated those things completely separately, IIRC.
07:48:12 <fizzie> So you generally have to listen-an-accept on two sockets with some sort of select/poll thing, except that on some systems binding the second socket won't work.
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07:59:35 <Ilari> Isn't there way to override IPV6_V6ONLY on per-socket basis?
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08:00:00 <fizzie> Yes, with setsockopt before binding.
08:00:12 <fizzie> But I don't think the whole option is completely portable.
08:01:32 <Ilari> Well, anything that doesn't support it is probably either 1) Totally obsolete, 2) Windows (with who knows what TCP stack) or 3) Doesn't support IPv6 anyway.
08:01:47 <fizzie> It does exist on Linux, Windows and OS X, though, so I guess you can be portable to those three by explicitly either setting it + binding both v4 and v6 separately, or unsetting it and binding just a v6 wildcard socket.
08:01:59 <zzo38> I didn't know IPv6 has magic properties. Actually I don't know a lot about IPv6 in general.
08:03:24 <zzo38> How many addresses does an end user need?
08:05:55 <fizzie> 18 quintillion (short-scale) addresses is what you tend to get. At least that's what 3G specs to be given to each phone, for personal-area-networking stuff like that. You know, if you happen to be carrying 18 quintillion other devices that need to share the link.
08:06:58 <zzo38> That seems too much. Even 2048 addresses should be enough for someone with many devices. There are also port numbers, too.
08:07:06 <Ilari> Or if SLAAC is to be used...
08:08:34 <fizzie> "Stateless address autoconfiguration"
08:09:28 <fizzie> It's that thing that lets hosts automagically pick their addresses. The router sends a 64-bit prefix, and the host builds the other 64 bits out of (usually) its MAC address + fffe in the middle.
08:11:11 <zzo38> Is there some commands that IPv4 programs will work with IPv6 not requiring a change?
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08:16:11 <fizzie> I'm not sure what "commands" here refers to. There's the getaddrinfo() socket API function; if you use that to translate addresses to names (and don't explicitly specify AF_INET or AF_INET6, but use AF_UNSPEC) things will mostly work on both IPv4 and IPv6 hosts. And then there are those tricky translation mechanisms.
08:18:00 <zzo38> I mean some things like that, and some API command to tell it to make a connection with a hostname and port number, and those things.
08:18:50 <fizzie> Yes, well. getaddrinfo() takes a host and a port (string, actually; you can give it names in addition to numbers) and returns a list of address structures you can give to connect().
08:22:07 <zzo38> But IPv6 addresses can have colons. So, maybe what could be done to fix that, is have the local DNS program to check if it ends with ".ipv6" and if so, will change the dots to colons and then resolve it to the corresponding IPv6 address. Is such things exists/possible?
08:22:55 <zzo38> Programs designed for IPv4 will probably not accept colons in the address, so you would have to do something like that?
08:26:03 <fizzie> If you give "a:b:c:d:e:f:g:h" style of address to getaddrinfo, it'll return a IPv6 address back; of course usually you'd just use names.
08:27:04 <fizzie> What often breaks though is v4-oriented programs that take a "host:port" string; they might not handle numeric v6 addresses right.
08:27:40 <fizzie> Incidentally, is the "[a:b:c:d:e:f:g:h]:port" format standardized anywhere?
08:28:08 <zzo38> Yes, the "host:port" string is what I am refering to, that is why you should have some local DNS program that converts forms with dots if it ends with ".ipv6", so that IPv4 programs will continue to work with IPv6.
08:29:07 <fizzie> Well, you could do that; haven't heard of anyone doing it though.
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08:32:35 <Ilari> Sometimes programs supporting IPv6 are broken with at least numeric addresses: 1) Bugs in some resolver routines, 2) Bugs in handling the [addr]:port notation.
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08:36:41 <fizzie> That would be easier to get right if they would have made getaddrinfo support "host:port", "v4addr:port" and "[v6addr]:port" style strings internally.
08:41:23 <quintopia> what's the best way to get an image of a remote container?
08:41:40 <quintopia> i can't scp cuz that follows symbolic links
08:42:06 <quintopia> and besides, i have it set up to not allow connections as root
08:43:33 <fizzie> "ssh host tar blah-to-make-a-tarball > ball_of.tar", vaguely speaking.
08:43:55 <fizzie> As non-root it might not be so easy.
08:44:36 <fizzie> I've done tar-over-netcat too, but that's something you'd probably only do in a local, safeish network.
08:44:56 <olsner> if you have any ability to run things as root, you can "tar blah-to-make-a-tarball | ssh somewhere blah-to-save-somewhere"
08:45:19 <fizzie> Then there's tar-over-netcat-over-ssh-forwarded-port.
08:46:15 <quintopia> well, just making a tarball and then downloading it really
08:46:34 <quintopia> as long as tarring the folder you're creating the tar inside doesn't break things...
08:48:34 <fizzie> nc -l -p 1234 > ball.tar + (in another term) ssh -R 1234:localhost:1234 host + sudo + tar blah | nc localhost:1234 is one way.
08:49:51 <olsner> the trick is to not save the tar, but pipe it directly over the network
08:50:03 <fizzie> Or "nc localhost 1234" I guess. Netcat command line details depend on the variant.
08:50:07 <quintopia> but also i need to disconnect irc first
08:50:25 <olsner> why would you have to?
08:50:50 <fizzie> Pipe it (base64-encoded) here on channel, and then extract from the clog logs?-)
08:50:55 <quintopia> i was thinking because the log files might update as it is read
08:51:05 <quintopia> what the hell is that command you posted fizzie
08:51:43 <olsner> that was four commands (on two different hosts) :P
08:51:43 <zzo38> Is there anything like netcat that can receive multiple connections at the same time, send stdin to all of them, and send data received from all of them to stdout?
08:51:50 <fizzie> It's just tar-over-netcat except fed through a SSH port forwarding for safety.
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08:52:45 <fizzie> zzo38: Not that I know of, but it should be called netoctocat or something if it did exist.
08:53:24 <quintopia> you are opening a netcat receiver on my end, and then creating a tunnel for that port, and then connecting to the remote serving and tarring to netcat over that tunnel
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08:55:45 <fizzie> It depends on your netcat.
08:55:59 <quintopia> man nc says basically you can't use those options together
08:56:11 <fizzie> Some take "-l port", some "-l -p port".
08:56:24 <fizzie> NAME nc - TCP/IP swiss army knife
08:56:24 <fizzie> SYNOPSIS nc [-options] hostname port[s] [ports] ... nc -l -p port [-options] [hostname] [port]
08:59:04 <quintopia> tar without -f sends output to stdout?
08:59:23 <quintopia> it looks like it sends it to the content of the TAPE env variable...
09:01:12 <quintopia> localhost:1234: forward host lookup failed: Unknown host
09:02:05 <quintopia> does that mean i'm blocking 1234 on my end?
09:02:07 <fizzie> Yeah, that should've been "nc localhost 1234", not "nc localhost:1234".
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09:09:21 <quintopia> i just got the "error exit delayed from previous errors" message
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09:14:08 <quintopia> it was some socket ignoreds and a file changed as we read it
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09:16:31 <quintopia> what do i need to backup in order to preserve my iptables config? isn't it like iptables-save filename?
09:17:29 <fizzie> Yes, and ip6tables-save too if you have any.
09:17:51 <fizzie> Or "iptables-save > filename", I think.
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09:29:26 <quintopia> this netcatting thing is fun ... but there's no way to tell when the file has finished sending :P
09:30:15 <quintopia> anyway, i think i backed up the things i care about now...
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10:40:16 <Ilari> Transfer rate should drop a lot after it finishes... :-)
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12:07:03 <Ilari> Haha... "That's good news - we need to make sure we have a /3 for both the Moon and Mars colonies. ;)".
12:07:42 <Ilari> Nah... I think RIR-class notional allocation (/7) would be enough for the Moon... :-)
12:08:37 <Ilari> There are currently two of those free...
12:11:44 <Ilari> Oops, not 2 but 10.
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14:34:45 <elliott> pikhq: can you relink me that interix iso?
14:34:51 <elliott> i refound it but it's only downloading at 20 kilobytes / sec
14:35:01 <elliott> thinking i might be on a bad mirror
14:35:39 <elliott> 03:42:41 • Sgeo clicks the Build menu
14:35:40 <elliott> 03:42:50 • Sgeo clicks Compile and Run ( Ctrl-F5 )
14:35:40 <elliott> 03:43:06 • Sgeo completely neglects the existence of keyboard shortcuts
14:35:50 <elliott> I was going to something but I can't wrIte.
14:37:56 <elliott> 04:37:34 <augur> Sgeo: disprovable(S) = provable(~S) = ~provable(S)
14:38:01 <elliott> augur: excluded-middle scum
14:39:59 <Ilari> disprovable(S) is not the same as ~provable(S).
14:41:17 <copumpkin> augur: in constructive logic, I can't prove double negation elimination or LEM, but that doesn't make them false
14:43:55 <elliott> EXCLUDED MIDDLE IS FALSE ///HARDCORE CONSTRUCTIVISM///
14:44:12 <elliott> (OK, OK, so any intuitionistic logic + ~LEM is almost certainly inconsistent.)
14:44:26 <elliott> 08:56:57 <quintopia> well, just making a tarball and then downloading it really
14:44:34 <elliott> quintopia: if you did it like "ssh host tar foo >blah", you could skip the downloading
14:44:44 <elliott> by having it stream directly to your disk over the network
14:44:51 <elliott> Ilari: yeah augur is full of shit :P
14:45:02 <elliott> disprovable(S) = provable(~S)
14:45:14 <elliott> disprovable(S) also => ~provable(S)
14:45:33 <elliott> ~provable(S) does _not_ => provable(~S)
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14:46:25 <elliott> augur: hi, you said wrong things
14:46:31 <augur> copumpkin: im not a constructivist
14:46:35 <elliott> <augur> Sgeo: disprovable(S) = provable(~S) = ~provable(S)
14:46:38 <augur> elliott: also i didnt
14:46:52 <elliott> there are statements where ~provable(S) and ~provable(~S)
14:46:57 <elliott> which violate what you said
14:47:24 <elliott> augur: disprovable(S) = provable(~S). provable(~S) implies ~provable(S).
14:47:37 <elliott> copumpkin: tell augur why he's wrong kthx
14:47:46 <elliott> too early to deal with stupid statements
14:47:50 <augur> elliott: this depends on the meaning of provable, which we commented on afterwords
14:47:54 <augur> please read those comments
14:48:01 <elliott> augur: no, it doesn't, there's exactly one meaning of provable
14:48:11 <elliott> and it has nothing to do with whether humans have managed to prove it yet
14:48:25 <elliott> and there's exactly one meaning of disprovable, "negation is provable"
14:48:25 <augur> elliott: yes, well i was speaking in english
14:48:29 <augur> not in precise terms
14:48:36 <elliott> <augur> Sgeo: disprovable(S) = provable(~S) = ~provable(S)
14:48:38 <elliott> oh yeah that's some english
14:48:45 <elliott> augur: the precise terms were exactly what matter
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14:48:54 <elliott> sgeo was going on about godel and all the time you were talking about ...
14:48:59 <elliott> statements that people haven't proven yet?
14:49:07 <elliott> i have no idea what you were even talking about tbh
14:49:34 <quintopia> and i even gave a specific counterexample ... ~provable(G) and ~provable(~G)
14:51:03 <elliott> i think augur just admitted he lost the argument
14:53:21 <j-invariant> 14:48 < elliott> 04:37:34 <augur> Sgeo: disprovable(S) = provable(~S) = ~provable(S)
14:53:53 <elliott> j-invariant: SORRY EXCUSE ME BY "DISPROVABLE", AUGUR MEANT "NOT YET PROVED OR DISPROVED BY HUMANS" APPARENTLY
14:53:58 <j-invariant> 14:54 < elliott> EXCLUDED MIDDLE IS FALSE ///HARDCORE CONSTRUCTIVISM///
14:54:37 <elliott> j-invariant: i also follow the axiom of LIFE
14:54:47 <elliott> because of my deep religious beliefs
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15:12:58 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh, he admitted that he didn't have an argument and ran away because he is an intellectual coward.
15:18:38 <Phantom__Hoover> OK, so I'm being bitter, but he's done this before to me and cpressey.
15:19:42 <elliott> Hmm, I *do* need someone to blame for making cpressey leave that isn't me ...
15:20:26 <elliott> copumpkin: Yeah, I blame you.
15:20:49 <elliott> copumpkin: DRIVE AWAY THE MOST FAMOUSEST MEMBER OF THE ESOLANG COMMUNITY, WOULD YOU
15:21:14 <elliott> copumpkin: http://catseye.tc/
15:21:17 <elliott> copumpkin: inventor of Befunge
15:21:29 <Phantom__Hoover> He just said something stupid which we told him was wrong, and he basically stuck his fingers in his ears and sang "LALALALALAI'MRIGHT" until we got tired and gave up, then gloated about winning the argument.
15:22:00 <elliott> I think augur has a tendency to ... respond to questions using precise terminology by assuming they mean something else entirely.
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15:22:45 <Phantom__Hoover> He said IIRC that a TM that forbade one specific program couldn't be TC, which was blatantly wrong.
15:23:24 <elliott> if you forbid a countable set of programs then maybe.
15:24:08 <Phantom__Hoover> You'd need computational equivalence to do it so that a UTM was completely impossible.
15:24:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's arguable whether the language L = {a Brainfuck interpreter} is Turing-complete.
15:25:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: L could be another language (say, Brainfuck) with a countably infinite set of programs removed (all apart from that one program).
15:25:21 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, yes, I know. But the point stands that just adding steadily more complex nops would make it uncomputable to actually create such a TM.
15:25:26 <elliott> Specifically, it's TC by the "has a program that implements a UTM" definition, but not by the "has one program for every Turing Machine".
15:25:42 <elliott> (The latter is the original definition of a UTM generalised to arbitrary languages.)
15:25:51 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Eh? Erm, whatever.
15:27:13 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, i.e. that you can't actually *prove* that an arbitrary program is equivalent to the forbidden one(s), so it's not possible to prevent TCness without making it superturing.
15:27:31 <elliott> Oh, I was assuming it was just syntactic forbiddenness.
15:27:38 <elliott> i.e., if prog in forbiddens: slkjgsdkhjl
15:28:27 <elliott> <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's arguable whether the language L = {a Brainfuck interpreter} is Turing-complete.
15:28:37 <elliott> That's Brainfuck minus a countable subset of programs, and I don't think it's Turing-complete.
15:29:44 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, i.e. it's just if prog /= <specific BF interpreter>: stop else <BF intepreter>?
15:30:52 <j-invariant> or maybe Is hould do lambda calculsu instead
15:30:57 <elliott> theoretically impossible :D
15:31:05 <elliott> j-invariant: lc is probably easier to reason about in Coq, but
15:31:08 <Phantom__Hoover> j-invariant, pikhq has that super-optimising x86(-64?) compiler that he still hasn't shown me.
15:31:09 <elliott> I think harder to check termination for?
15:31:23 <elliott> j-invariant: bf seems easier to check termination
15:31:27 <quintopia> the haskell one would be a nice accomplishment
15:32:04 <quintopia> j-invariant: do it anyway, just for the challenge
15:32:21 <elliott> bf interps are not a challenge
15:32:35 <Phantom__Hoover> LC, perhaps, simply due to having to deal with alpha equivalence.
15:33:06 <quintopia> elliott: it'd be a challenge for me, who knows no haskell
15:33:23 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: you don't have to
15:33:45 <elliott> or just substitute directly when applying
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15:35:13 <j-invariant> 15:44 < Phantom__Hoover> But that's trivial.
15:36:08 <Phantom__Hoover> j-invariant, it seems unrelated to his point, which was anyway poorly articulated and was never supported with anything approaching that argument.
15:36:43 <j-invariant> I can't decide whether to use brainfuck or lambda
15:37:29 <elliott> j-invariant: I have no idea how you'd write an LC termination checker
15:37:36 <elliott> brainfuck at least has several easy halting types
15:37:47 <elliott> including the extended euclidean thing for a certain type of loop
15:38:06 <elliott> j-invariant: really though
15:38:10 <elliott> j-invariant: use esotope-bfc's output
15:38:18 <elliott> j-invariant: it detects certain simple infinite loops for you
15:38:21 <elliott> j-invariant: and e.g. can figure out arithmetic
15:38:25 <elliott> j-invariant: and also gives you While loops and the like
15:48:18 <elliott> 04.11.04:14:52:59 <cpressey_> hello :)
15:48:18 <elliott> 04.11.04:14:53:31 --- nick: cpressey_ -> cpressey
15:48:18 <elliott> 04.11.04:16:16:25 <cpressey> yep
15:48:18 <elliott> 04.11.07:19:57:21 <cpressey> heatsink: re type inference: the dragon book contains a good description & algorithm
15:48:19 <elliott> 04.11.07:19:58:42 <cpressey> np
15:48:21 <elliott> 04.11.07:19:58:57 <cpressey> it still took me a loooong time to figure out exactly what was going on with it :)
15:48:24 <elliott> 04.11.07:19:59:20 <cpressey> replacing the greek letters with T1, T2, T3 and walking myself through abunch of examples seemed to help
15:48:27 <elliott> 04.11.07:20:02:47 <cpressey> no
15:48:29 <elliott> 04.11.07:20:03:44 <cpressey> word-final :)
15:48:32 <elliott> either cpressey was lagged that day, or clog has ignores
15:50:11 <elliott> 19:33:53 <jDoctor> so uh whats the norm discussion here?
15:50:11 <elliott> 19:34:06 <heatsink> nothin'
15:50:11 <elliott> 19:34:22 <heatsink> This channel isn't active most of the time
15:50:11 <elliott> 19:34:33 <slava> lets make it active!
15:50:34 <elliott> 19:35:33 <slava> i'm working on stack effect inference for postfix languages
15:50:34 <elliott> 19:35:48 * heatsink has no idea what that is
15:50:34 <elliott> 19:36:05 <heatsink> what is that?
15:50:34 <elliott> 19:36:21 <slava> eg, the stack effect of 2 2 + is [ 0 | 1 ] because it takes no values from the stack, but leaves one
15:50:34 <elliott> 19:36:38 <slava> the stack effect of dup * is [ 1 | 1 ], because it takes one value, duplicates it, multiplies the two duplicates, to yield one value
15:51:24 <elliott> 19:46:47 <heatsink> What language syntax do you use? Is it taken from an existing language?
15:51:24 <elliott> 19:47:51 <heatsink> Hey, the inventor of factor is named slava too! what a coincidence!
15:52:26 <elliott> 14:31:20 <fizzie> not related, but mooz could perhaps say something here about his "random programs" experiments.
15:52:28 <elliott> 14:31:40 <fizzie> it's esoteric enough.
15:52:33 <elliott> 14:32:14 <fizzie> apparently he keeps finding composite-number-factoring algorithms at a surprisingly high rate. :p
15:52:33 <elliott> fizzie: is that a joke...?
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15:55:34 <elliott> 11:01:00 <Keymaker> hi all! i'm first time here with linux
15:55:34 <elliott> 11:02:39 <Keymaker> (i hadn't linux before)
15:55:34 <elliott> 11:02:39 <mtve> client is sirc i hope?
15:55:34 <elliott> 11:02:39 <Keymaker> it's something x-chat
15:55:35 <elliott> 11:02:39 <Keymaker> but i don't know anything about this
15:56:18 <elliott> lol nooga hasn't changed since 2004
15:56:33 <elliott> 13:55:00 <lament> mmmm befunge
15:56:33 <elliott> 13:56:58 <fizzie> My girlfriend complains when I speak of scheme and lambdas in bed, maybe I should try talking about befunge.
15:56:33 <elliott> 14:04:19 <lament> Maybe you should speak of brainfuck.
15:56:33 <elliott> 14:06:00 <fizzie> I find incomprehensible rectangular blocks of befunge code very exciting, maybe she would also?
15:57:22 <elliott> 21:35:06 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!)
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16:22:52 <elliott> WHO WANTS TO JOIN MY EPIC LOG-READING PROJECT
16:22:59 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover?! Er... clog?!
16:24:11 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> 14:06:00 <fizzie> I find incomprehensible rectangular blocks of befunge code very exciting, maybe she would also? ← clearly she did, assuming she's the one he married.
16:24:20 <elliott> The secret to a happy marriage.
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16:50:38 <augur> elliott: two points. 1) by disprovable i mean "in principle could be proven or disproven but not necessarily already so", as in "P = NP is a (dis)provable proposition, but we haven't yet found the (dis)proof"
16:50:40 <augur> and 2) "bai" was meant as "i wont be responding because im in class"
16:51:00 <elliott> (1) that isn't what disprovable means.
16:51:06 <elliott> disprovable is a formal term meaning "negation is provable".
16:51:12 <elliott> provable means "proof exists" not "proof has been found".
16:51:23 <elliott> don't argue, because it simply /isn't/ what disprovable means in the context of logic
16:51:32 <elliott> and my definition is the one Sgeo_ meant too, as it is the only relevant one
16:51:37 <augur> elliott: i already agreed to this on grounds that theres a muddling of non-technical language
16:51:38 <elliott> in the context of goedel's incompleteness theorems
16:51:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Wait, can you just clarify here that you no longer think that provable(¬P) = ¬provable(P)?
16:54:05 <augur> elliott: actually i also think that provable(~P) -> ~provable(P)
16:54:19 <elliott> but ~provable(P) does not -> provable(~P).
16:54:26 <augur> the reverse might be true if we have a closed world assumption
16:54:31 <elliott> and therefore provable(~P) =/= ~provable(P)
16:54:33 <augur> which i think is necessarily what we dont have
16:54:37 <elliott> augur: consider the axiom of choice in ZF
16:55:45 <augur> but this also, i suppose hinges on what "dis-" means. obviously if we dont take "dis-" to be analysable in this context, fine
16:56:07 <augur> but i think its true, in common parlance at least, that "dis-" is negation
16:56:12 <j-invariant> Th being the axiomatic theory S is provable in
16:56:24 <elliott> augur: in logic, disprovable(P) means provable(~P).
16:56:31 <elliott> that's just not arguable terminology
16:56:39 <j-invariant> If you say things like "provable" or "disprovable" without respect to an axiom system you will end up writing a book like GEB one day
16:56:40 <augur> but i mean that like
16:56:49 <elliott> tr.v. dis·proved, dis·prov·ing, dis·proves
16:56:49 <elliott> To prove to be false, invalid, or in error; refute.
16:56:50 <elliott> disprovable (not comparable)
16:56:50 <elliott> Capable of being disproved.
16:57:00 <augur> if its impossible to prove that P, i think that constitutes a disproof of P
16:57:13 <j-invariant> 17:07 < elliott> augur: in logic, disprovable(P) means provable(~P).
16:57:24 <elliott> augur: in Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, the Axiom of Choice is neither provable nor disprovable.
16:57:28 <elliott> augur: it is neither true nor false.
16:57:30 <j-invariant> In logic, disprovable_Th(P) has meaning though
16:57:32 <augur> ok, obviously this is true only in certain systems
16:57:36 <elliott> augur: both ZFC and ZF~C are valid.
16:57:39 <augur> because of completeness
16:57:44 <elliott> augur: no, it's true in no sufficiently powerful consistent system
16:57:59 <coppro> You need the completeness<->satisfiable equivalence
16:58:07 <augur> elliott: but in a consistent system, either proposition is either probably true or provably false
16:58:09 <coppro> also your axiom system must be consistent
16:58:18 <augur> so if you cant prove it's true, it must be possible to prove its false
16:58:27 <Phantom__Hoover> <j-invariant> If you say things like "provable" or "disprovable" without respect to an axiom system you will end up writing a book like GEB one day ← in that it can only be kept on reinforced steel bookcases?
16:58:30 <elliott> <augur> elliott: but in a consistent system, either proposition is either probably true or provably false
16:58:31 <coppro> augur: No, there are many consistent systems in which you can neither prove or disprove something
16:58:42 <augur> er sorry, you said consistent
16:58:47 <coppro> For instance, ZFC is a consistent system that cannot prove or disprove the continuum hypothesis
16:58:54 <elliott> in a complete system, yes.
16:59:01 <elliott> but there are no useful complete systems :)
16:59:01 <augur> i wasnt reading fully
16:59:05 <augur> and since i said complete
16:59:16 <augur> hey boolean algebra is both complete, consistent, AND useful!
16:59:26 <augur> not that its terribly complex
16:59:40 <coppro> (note that the completeness<->satisfiable equivalence, in an axiomatic logic system, follows from the principle of explosion and one other statement that I need to dig out of my notes)
17:00:18 <elliott> i hate text editors they are so bad.
17:00:24 <coppro> oh right, ((a->(~a))->~a)
17:01:00 <j-invariant> elliott: it's like teaching kids { x | P(x) } instead of { x in X | P(x) }
17:01:19 <elliott> j-invariant: yes but disprovable(P) is perfectly valid INFORMAL SHORTHAND
17:01:28 <coppro> if you have those two as theorems of your system, then you have completeness<->satisfiable which has all the nice properties you expect
17:01:36 <coppro> darn you for forcing me to unignore elliott
17:01:39 <elliott> in informal language, convenience wins over precision when the rest can be inferred
17:01:46 <elliott> j-invariant: informal discussion of formal logic
17:01:52 <elliott> in this case, the _theory_ wasn't relevant
17:02:00 <elliott> especially if left as a free variable
17:02:12 <quintopia> i agree with elliott here. it is understand that we are speaking of a particular system, namely any system where GIT applies.
17:03:10 <quintopia> but i can't prove that in this system
17:03:14 -!- elliott has set topic: githouse | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
17:03:14 <augur> elliott: why do text editors suck
17:03:49 <coppro> there are lots of systems in which (~a) and (a) are provable; namely all inconsistent ones
17:04:14 <quintopia> why is vim unusable? why is emacs unusable? why is <insert other text editor you've used> unusable?
17:04:24 <elliott> because they're either vastly inefficient or nearly impossible to commit to muscle memory
17:04:48 <elliott> quintopia: With enough time I could probably turn Emacs into a usable text editor, but that's just writing a text editor myself, except with keybinding clashes.
17:04:54 <elliott> no, not pebkac, just unrealistically high standards
17:04:57 <augur> elliott: make a usable one then!
17:05:26 <coppro> I was expecting interesting conversation
17:05:27 <elliott> quintopia: in #esoteric we are generally more lenient to those who are dissatisfied with the current status of computing.
17:05:51 <elliott> being unrealistic isn't a problem if you make attempts at fixing it, which i have
17:05:57 <augur> im utterly dissatisfied with the current status of computing
17:06:07 <augur> mostly because i dont know whats new and interesting
17:06:15 <augur> coppro, elliott: whats new and interestion
17:06:16 <coppro> augur: obviously your ACM membership isn't up to date
17:06:19 <quintopia> but what's the closest *realistic* approximation to your standards?
17:06:32 <augur> coppro: i dont need an acm membership, im at a university!
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17:06:46 <j-invariant> like I said yesterday, computer science is dead
17:06:47 <elliott> quintopia: well. acme is quite nice. yaedit has good finger feel and muscle memory.
17:06:58 <augur> coppro: what interesting stuff have you read lately
17:07:10 <coppro> augur: step 1) pick a field
17:07:11 <elliott> coppro doesn't do interesting things
17:07:18 <coppro> step 2) find the people at your university in that field
17:07:28 <augur> i dont know what the field is that im interested in
17:07:34 <augur> but its not really a field
17:07:50 <elliott> lol i was off ignore for coppro?
17:08:31 <elliott> i swear coppro gets paid by the number of times he mentions that i'm on ignore
17:08:34 <elliott> also, whining about minecraft discussion
17:08:57 <augur> constraint logic seems interesting, in principle
17:09:10 <augur> but a lot of the techniques ive seen involve just prologesque resolution
17:09:29 <coppro> you should try to solve 3-SAT in polynomial time :P
17:09:42 <augur> i cant prove p = np!
17:09:45 <coppro> but seriously; find the people, then find the research
17:09:48 <j-invariant> get interested in practical programming with dependent types
17:10:01 <j-invariant> We need an army of people interested in that in order to get things moving
17:10:20 <augur> elliott: whats your favorite dependent type language again? coq?
17:10:33 <elliott> they all suck! but you can define and prove things in Coq so that's a plus
17:10:54 <elliott> augur: come back in ten years
17:11:10 <augur> i hate you elliott :(
17:11:11 <j-invariant> since it's actually possible to automate proofs
17:11:15 <quintopia> coppro: any idea on the status of the latest try on that front?
17:11:18 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:11:53 -!- cheater99 has joined.
17:12:09 <quintopia> (or rather, the latest try at showing it can't be done :P_
17:14:18 <augur> showing that what can't be done?
17:14:51 <quintopia> 12:20 < coppro> you should try to solve 3-SAT in polynomial time :P
17:17:25 <elliott> maybe i'll add haskell indentation support to yaedi
17:25:12 <Phantom__Hoover> NO, GOOGLE, NOT EVERYONE HAS AN SMS-CAPABLE DEVICE TO HAND.
17:25:47 <Phantom__Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Birdsniper.jpg
17:29:22 <quintopia> yaedit seems okay, but that planned "smart syntax-checking and variable coloring" thing sounds awful nice. wonder how long that will take.
17:29:58 <elliott> quintopia: well the main thing i like about yaedit is its interface and its auto-save
17:30:18 <elliott> the interface, i.e. a spartan GUI where everything is shown at all times, accessed by the keyboard
17:30:28 <elliott> that informs you how to use the keyboard to do things when you do them with your mouse (e.g. clicking in the line dialogue)
17:30:36 <elliott> the line jumping/search is very well-done
17:30:38 <quintopia> elliott: auto-save kind of bugs me, but then, i want a text-editor that i can use as a textual scratch pad and not just programming
17:30:59 <elliott> quintopia: in leaden (my editor project), auto-save is coupled with VCS-save
17:31:09 <elliott> quintopia: that is, every change is saved to disk automatically, and Ctrl+S asks for a commit message and does a VCS commit
17:31:22 <quintopia> basically, i want to be able to use it as a multi-line input buffer that isn't associated with any file
17:31:31 <elliott> quintopia: also, undo information is stored to a file in ~/.leaden
17:31:36 <elliott> so you can undo, say, days of changes
17:31:39 <elliott> even after reopening a file
17:31:51 <elliott> the auto-save thing is great because you can test changes to a program extremely rapidly
17:31:58 <elliott> and the Ctrl+S vcs integration makes version control a lot nicer
17:32:02 <augur> Phantom__Hoover: i dont know if that word you mentioned is a word or not. that will depend on the person.
17:32:21 <quintopia> elliott: so what happens when you are editing without specifying a file?
17:32:32 <elliott> quintopia: it doesn't save it... either that or it saves it in /tmp
17:33:23 <quintopia> does leaden do all the things you like about yaedit?
17:33:50 <elliott> quintopia: also: smart language modes
17:33:58 <elliott> pervasive syntax highlighting and auto-indentation
17:34:01 <elliott> handled _programmatically_
17:34:09 <elliott> i.e., the indenter for a language is an actual program
17:34:17 <elliott> so even complex languages like Haskell can be auto-indented
17:34:53 <elliott> quintopia: also: extensive project support _without_ any project files
17:35:03 <elliott> if you have a certain directory open as a project, then you can "open in project" extremely rapidly
17:35:10 <elliott> e.g. if you have foo.h in myproj/foo/bar/baz/
17:35:29 <elliott> (assuming this is unambiguous; you select from a list)
17:36:10 <elliott> quintopia: I lost the code to the initial prototype and haven't yet got the energy to rewrite it?
17:36:46 <quintopia> so you have a binary with no source?
17:37:12 <elliott> quintopia: no, i just don't have it :)
17:37:27 <elliott> all this stuff is pretty easy to implement, but i didn't yet get around to it... if i still had the basic editor code i'd be implementing them now
17:37:35 <elliott> i had auto-indent working for python
17:38:52 <quintopia> what are the odds you'll come upon a link for your little roguelike that still has its source in it?
17:39:31 <elliott> quintopia: do you not have a copy?
17:40:39 <quintopia> i don't think so. if i did, it'd be one of the earliest ones
17:43:42 <elliott> i think cheater99 has it >__>
17:46:16 <elliott> quintopia: wiped drive by accident, then pastie.org went all fag and deleted old pastes
17:47:59 <elliott> quintopia: no, i was reinstalling linux and backed up my shit to the windows partition
17:48:03 <elliott> which i then accidentally deleted
17:48:41 <quintopia> linux is smaller than windows. basically always. i would have still tried recovering
17:50:25 <elliott> quintopia: but there was nothing of value :P
17:50:28 <elliott> other than vagrant, basically
17:52:52 <quintopia> rewrite vagrant for maximum awesomeitude
17:55:20 <elliott> quintopia: it was already max awesome
17:58:47 <elliott> quintopia: find it for me then fucker
18:10:20 <elliott> 09:37:43 <elliott> Gregor: OMG
18:10:20 <elliott> 09:37:47 <elliott> The smallest enemies, right
18:10:20 <elliott> 09:37:52 <elliott> Little tiny critters that are only a mild annoyance
18:10:20 <elliott> 09:37:55 <elliott> Gregor: Make them the favicon.
18:10:20 <elliott> 09:38:02 <elliott> The website fights back!
18:10:20 <elliott> 09:38:06 <elliott> It doesn't want you to steal its images!
18:10:22 <elliott> 09:38:14 <Gregor> ... YES. YES, YES.
18:10:24 <elliott> 09:38:29 <Gregor> Favicon goombas!
18:10:35 <elliott> I LIKE HOW THE FAVICON GOOMBAS WERE FUCKING TERRIFYING RATHER THAN A MILD ANNOYANCE
18:11:00 <Gregor> Dude ... they're goombas.
18:11:39 <quintopia> did i ever give them a death sequence? i don't remember...
18:13:35 <quintopia> then that was my next task i was trying to remember :P
18:13:54 <quintopia> also a giant flying boss with 1000 HP
18:14:34 -!- elliott_ has joined.
18:14:42 <elliott_> Gregor: They're goombas and YOU HAVE ONE HEART OF HEALTH.
18:14:51 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:14:52 <Gregor> elliott_: That's your fault.
18:17:19 <Gregor> elliott_: Also, in Mario * you have one hit worth of health until you get a powerup, and they still throw goombas at you *shrugs*
18:17:32 <elliott_> Gregor: Mario's collision detection is A LOT MORE FORGIVING :P
18:17:47 <elliott_> And it's easier to move around without slipping.
18:19:54 <quintopia> < qntm> Switching from Courier New to Consolas has made a tangible improvement to my programming happiness.
18:20:11 <quintopia> i can't believe he used courier new
18:20:29 <quintopia> it is a cool looking font, but does not look good in an editor
18:21:24 <Gregor> You crazy fontophiles.
18:23:22 <elliott_> I use Courier New in my XP VM :P
18:23:36 <elliott_> (My XP VM has font antialiasing disabled.)
18:23:42 <elliott_> Anyone know a decent Windows 7 torrent...?
18:23:54 <quintopia> i just use Droid Sans these days...
18:23:57 <elliott_> Trying to find a cracked one without any extra bullshit...
18:25:12 <quintopia> my terminal is set to use droid sans though
18:25:35 <elliott_> quintopia: Droid Sans *Mono*, more likely
18:27:42 <quintopia> cheater99: do you have um, say, like, a Vagrant, like, loitering on your system somewhere, that, uh, you'd like to, erm, share, pretty please?
18:29:29 <cheater99> didn't someone mention something about a minecraft server //__ //
18:29:51 <quintopia> i don't know about that. can't help you there.
18:30:21 <elliott_> cheater99: i demand vagrant.py
18:30:28 <quintopia> actually, i do know a few good ones...i just dont know #esoteric's
18:30:55 <elliott_> cheater99: I am not allowed to give you the server address, nor is any other member. Please give me my program.
18:32:25 <quintopia> cheater99: give it to me then? i promise i won't give that file to elliott. i'll work on it myself.
18:32:26 <elliott_> Please cut the childishness, I merely want the single latest .py file that is my program.
18:32:50 <cheater99> it's called game.py >________________>
18:33:30 <elliott_> Please just give me my program.
18:33:41 <cheater99> i feel the ratio of you being non-nice to me vs me being non-nice to you is not balanced!
18:33:49 <j-invariant> did you accidentally delete your program and this guy has a backup?
18:34:37 <elliott_> cheater99: Look, I'll be nice, just give me my program.
18:35:03 <impomatic> I'm a fan of Droid Sans Mono. I just wish it had a dotted 0
18:35:13 <cheater99> -rw-r--r-- 1 cheater cheater 2.0K 2010-10-06 01:48 game.py
18:35:20 <cheater99> elliott: is this actually genuine?
18:36:18 <elliott_> cheater99: yes. please give me my program.
18:36:28 <elliott_> j-invariant: that's the name of the program
18:37:11 <j-invariant> cheater99: you're not setting a good example
18:37:25 <elliott_> cheater99: Can you put it on sprunge/any pastebin?
18:37:47 <cheater99> i'm just trying to figure out which file is which
18:40:08 <elliott_> cheater99: Can't you just upload all of them?
18:40:21 <cheater99> http://hpaste.org/43340/vagrand_alternate
18:41:43 <elliott_> i don't know which of those is more recent. hm
18:41:49 <fizzie> VagRand, the random number generator for ladies only.
18:42:07 <elliott_> is that all the versions you have?
18:42:54 <cheater99> before that they would beeline you
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18:43:07 <elliott_> both these versions are broken
18:43:11 <cheater99> now they can even go around obstacles
18:43:18 <cheater99> but they're not big bugs from what i remember
18:44:58 <elliott_> in fact they raise no exceptions
18:45:26 <cheater99> i forgot what that was... but we were able to figure it out.
18:48:53 <elliott_> cheater99: do you not have the more recent code with my rewritten ai?
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19:00:34 <cheater99> u = int((1-2*(r(0,10)/10))*o(1,11+y-B)+11-B),int(A-40+o(1,40+x-A)*(1-2*(r(0,10)/10)))
19:00:34 <cheater99> if u in w and w[u] in (0,32,33,36,37) and u not in s:
19:00:48 <cheater99> (that's with one extra indent for the try/except)
19:02:51 <cheater99> in fact you can take off those int()'s
19:03:03 <elliott_> that's your lame ai version though
19:03:12 <elliott_> what's the bug in the other :P
19:03:23 <elliott_> hm i suppose i could backport my ai to the first one
19:03:42 <elliott_> does anyone know a good X server for windows?
19:05:40 <Gregor> Are there even any options besides the one that comes with Cygwin and XMing?
19:06:20 <elliott_> Gregor: I don't think so... but the thing with Xming is that the author thinks that only offering a version from 2007 for free and then asking for a "donation" (read purchase) to get something recent is a good strategy.
19:06:41 <elliott_> Great way to pretend to be an "open source community program" while charging for it ..
19:07:39 <elliott_> Gregor: We evidently have different definitions of cool.
19:08:02 <elliott_> Gregor: If it was "Newer versions cost money and are released for free after four years", fine.
19:08:11 <elliott_> But it's worded in a slimy way.
19:08:33 <Gregor> I <3 both "Donor Password" and the incorrect use of "Public Domain"
19:08:39 <Gregor> It's still under the X11 license, right?
19:08:50 <elliott_> Gregor: Only the PUBLIC DOMAIN versions.
19:08:59 <elliott_> The cost versions are proprietary, pay-for software, plain and simple.
19:09:09 <elliott_> Almost makes you wanna use the GPL :
19:09:11 <Gregor> Well that's retardalicious.
19:09:22 <Gregor> Just makes me want to not use Windows *shrugs*
19:09:27 <elliott_> Gregor: Hell, I'd prefer a restricted free version rather than just an OBSOLETE free version.
19:09:38 <elliott_> Gregor: The problem here is a moron, not Windows :P
19:10:02 <Gregor> And yet, I'm running a recent version of X11 ;)
19:10:17 <Gregor> (Again, where's my goddamn TROLL FACE codepoint)
19:10:49 <elliott_> Gregor: Cygwin/X exists ... and requires Cygwin, which is the worst piece of software ever created :P
19:11:20 <elliott_> Gregor: I wonder if your ELF loader thing would work with Interix.
19:11:31 <Gregor> I can't imagine why not.
19:11:45 <Gregor> I mean, it might require some minor tweaking to get the image offset right, but otherwise.
19:14:09 <quintopia> Gregor: there is that one trollface emoticon that's <funkyunicode>_<funkyunicode>
19:14:23 <Gregor> 'snot trollfacey enough :(
19:16:12 <Gregor> Y'know, when the electric guitar isn't shredding MIDIly, it's actually not that bad ;P
19:16:56 * Gregor had no luck finding any VSTi's that do electric guitars any better ... particularly at the end, where it's really vital.
19:17:41 <elliott_> "crumbs", he said, "i'm all out of crumbs"
19:17:59 <Gregor> cheater99: End of http://codu.org/music/e/superturing/superturing.ogg
19:18:04 <elliott_> Gregor: Play it on a real guitar.
19:18:13 <Gregor> elliott_: I don't play the geetar
19:18:16 <elliott_> Gregor: In fact, play all of it.
19:18:25 <elliott_> Gregor: Yeah, but neither does SuperTuring's theme tune :P
19:18:41 <Gregor> cheater99: ... more reverb? :P
19:19:01 <Gregor> I really think elliott_ is exaggerating how bad the guitar is, all things considered it's pretty darn good :P
19:19:10 <elliott_> Gregor: It's just not hardcore enough.
19:19:19 <Gregor> elliott_: Well that's definitely true.
19:20:08 <Gregor> cheater99: Oh it does not.
19:20:46 <cheater99> you totally need to work on your mix
19:21:46 <cheater99> well, the fact that everything shares the same reverb is not helping at all
19:22:04 <Gregor> But I'm not an audiophile.
19:22:11 <cheater99> and that you're not using any eq on anything
19:22:28 <cheater99> and that all velocities are set to 100 or some other constant number
19:22:35 <cheater99> elliott_: it sounds like an mpu 401
19:22:39 <elliott_> No they're not... at least I doubt they are.
19:22:41 <cheater99> if that's what you want, it sounds awesome
19:22:46 <Gregor> cheater99: No, they're not.
19:22:59 <cheater99> but, i wager a bet that wasn't gregor's intention
19:23:06 <elliott_> cheater99: It's meant to be a cheesy theme tune.
19:23:14 <elliott_> So, yes, it's meant to sound like that.
19:23:17 <Gregor> It is most assuredly meant to be cheesy, yes.
19:23:25 <Gregor> It's not supposed to be dramatic, it's supposed to be ridiculous.
19:23:40 <Gregor> Or rather, ridicoulous in a way that makes it sound like it's trying to be dramatic but failing hard.
19:23:56 <cheater99> are you recording it all with vst synths?
19:24:24 <Gregor> 's all soundfonts ... my experience with VSTs is somewhat limited and I find them very annoying.
19:24:44 <elliott_> I decided to pretend VSTs existed when I found out that they all have custom skins.
19:24:47 <cheater99> do you have a physical midi interface?
19:24:50 <elliott_> Custom, terrible skins meant to look like REAL AUDIO HARDWARE MAN.
19:25:07 <cheater99> here's a trick you can use to make it more cheesy
19:25:11 <Gregor> The problem I have with VST's is that I can't "make" and go from source -> sound.
19:25:19 <cheater99> dump the output as a midi file through the interface
19:26:27 <Gregor> Uhhh, awesome, but that's not really the way in which it's supposed to be cheesy :P
19:26:38 <Gregor> Well, not necessarily ... maybe.
19:28:45 <cheater99> also another thing you can do is play it back through cheesy speakers and a cheesy microphone, and mix that with the original
19:29:03 <cheater99> especially when lots of bass comes in and the tiny speaker starts farting
19:29:24 <elliott_> I don't think cheater99 has a very good conception of cheesy.
19:33:41 <Gregor> The real problem here is that I'm a classically-trained musician, and electronic music ain't my thing ... I'm used to composition and performance being well-separated, and a lot of the aspects of tonality being related to environment rather than human fine-tuning. And I hate that fine-tuning, and I'm not an audiophile :P
19:34:01 <cheater99> well... the first half a minute isn't tonal at all
19:34:37 <Gregor> Sorry, I meant character, not tonality >_>
19:34:46 <Gregor> As in, character of tone.
19:35:40 <Gregor> That is to say, things like reverb are out of the hands of both the composer and the performer.
19:36:16 <Gregor> Even making my hand-played piano works sound as good as I'd like is annoying for me because I am not an acoustical engineer :P
19:36:38 -!- miekko has joined.
19:37:42 <Gregor> Anyway, I'm learning, so shut your facehole.
19:37:46 <Gregor> (Which you already have :P )
19:39:51 <elliott_> who is this miekko guy, i blame fizzie
19:39:55 <elliott_> looks suspiciously fizzie-related
19:40:45 <cheater99> Gregor: you have no idea what an awesome amount of work goes into fine-tuning the reverberation of a concert area!
19:40:58 <Gregor> cheater99: Fine-tuning BY ACOUSTICAL ENGINEERS, not the performers.
19:41:01 <Gregor> cheater99: That's my goddamn point.
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19:41:11 <cheater99> you're the acoustical engineer here
19:41:18 <cheater99> since you're building from ground up
19:41:22 <Gregor> THAT - IS - MY - POINT
19:41:27 <cheater99> alternatively, you can get altiverb
19:41:50 <elliott> "Altiverb 6 is a convolution reverb plug-in for Mac OS X and Windows XP."
19:41:52 <elliott> "Mac OS X and Windows XP."
19:42:05 <cheater99> or use one of those philharmonic ensemble samplers that also have a reverb/space placement solution
19:42:20 <elliott> I suppose they have the same stunning Linux support too.
19:42:34 <cheater99> elliott: i wish audio software would come to linux :(
19:42:42 <Gregor> So basically, by dumping hundreds of dollars into something I make no money on, I can make something good enough to make cheater99 say "this is tolerable"
19:42:57 <elliott> cheater99: My 100% disbelief that Gregor will stop using Linux for his music especially when he's stated that he doesn't want any solution that he can't use from the command-line for the fact that it already sounds fine.
19:43:06 <Gregor> cheater99: I don't pirate stuff.
19:43:11 <cheater99> elliott: well, you can use windows vst under linux
19:43:18 <elliott> Welp, cheater99's going back on ignore now that I have what I want.
19:43:48 <Gregor> cheater99: The only VSTs I've found that enable my absolute requirement of "make -> music" are DSK's (quite awesome) VST's of brass and strings. The brass I haven't tried integrating into this yet.
19:44:40 <Gregor> Or rather, I tried integrating it's trumpet and it's not as good (IMHO) as the relatively-good soundfont I have. Its trombone MUST be better than the one I have since the one I have has shitty audible looping X_X
19:45:11 <Gregor> But controlling the dynamics mix when you have both soundfonts and VSTis in a make-able way is a PITA *sigh*
19:45:15 <miekko> elliott: I am a Finn, I study CS and am writing my bachelor's thesis on complexity theory, no association to any fizzie of any kind
19:45:26 <elliott> miekko: Aren't all you Finns related?
19:45:37 <Gregor> Related by Finnish EVIL.
19:45:39 <elliott> Are you sure fizzie isn't your uncle or something?
19:45:59 <cheater99> Gregor: there are soundfont vst's.
19:46:05 <Gregor> cheater99: Terrible ones.
19:46:31 <Gregor> cheater99: FluidSynth is still, by a wide, wide margin, the best SoundFont renderer for any platform available legally for free.
19:47:07 <miekko> elliott: maybe, but if that is the case, his identity as fizzie is unknown to me
19:47:10 <Gregor> (I haven't tried all of them, blah blah blah disclaimer)
19:47:26 <miekko> I was told to come here by slereah
19:50:43 <fizzie> I'm not in abo.fi at all.
19:50:52 <fizzie> I'd blame the oko instead.
19:51:57 <fizzie> Anyway, not everything that ends in .fi is related to me.
19:53:00 <cheater99> in finland everyone is a second cousin
19:53:28 <miekko> uhm, I am probably not a second cousin to everyone else, because my village is so badly inbred that it's ...
19:53:36 <miekko> well, let's say, all my second cousins are my third cousins
19:54:00 <cheater99> how many ancestors 20 generations ago would that be?
19:55:08 <miekko> of course it grows exponentially, but you can also make exponential-sized cuts in it
19:55:54 <miekko> if we're going to have it grow exponentially, we're assuming every grandparent only is present in one place
19:56:04 <miekko> generations may be of different length
19:56:22 <miekko> so your paternal whateverwhateverwhatever may be half-sibling with your maternal whateverwhateverwhateverwhatever
19:56:39 <miekko> I think we should avoid counting anyone twice?
19:56:53 <elliott> miekko: you are not helping the "finns are not crazy" case here
19:57:05 <miekko> well, there's undoubtedly been multiple bottlenecks throughout biological history
19:57:15 <Gregor> The whole human race is related by incest :P
19:57:41 <elliott> I never thought my life would turn out like this ... updating a Gentoo installation that's running on Windows...
19:57:58 <miekko> hey, how's gentoo these days?
19:58:13 <miekko> I abandoned it a few years ago
19:58:44 * Gregor begins screaming "Debian" over and over again and foaming at the mouth
19:58:55 <elliott> miekko: I hate Gentoo, it's just that nothing else is maintained for Interix...
19:59:06 <elliott> miekko: (POSIX kernel running on top of Windows NT.)
19:59:11 <elliott> It's like Cygwin, except not terrible :P
19:59:12 <Gregor> elliott: Why do you have Interix? :P
19:59:24 <elliott> Gregor: Because if I didn't, I'd have Cygwin, and Cygwin is the worst piece of software ever invente.
19:59:28 <Gregor> elliott: Why in the sense of "by what totes-legal means did you obtain it"
19:59:40 <elliott> Gregor: By downloading it from microsoft.com, it's free :P
20:00:00 <elliott> Gregor: You almost certainly want to download the Gentoo Prefix ISO instead.
20:00:04 <elliott> That gets you things such as "a gcc newer than 3.3".
20:00:06 <miekko> hm, I guess gentoo isn't worth getting back to then
20:00:09 <elliott> Gregor: And it installs Interix for you.
20:00:16 <Gregor> INTERIX COMES WITH GCC?!?!
20:00:27 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, and Gentoo Prefix comes with gcc 4.2.
20:00:30 <elliott> You can of course update that.
20:00:41 <Gregor> But ... it's a Microsoft product!
20:00:47 <elliott> Gregor: In fact, you can use Gentoo Prefix to build native Windows applications with GNU make...
20:00:56 <elliott> Gregor: It also comes with ksh... Gentoo Prefix gets you bash :P
20:01:28 <elliott> Gregor: The only Interix available for XP is 2004-vintage but it works fine. If you have Windows 7 Ultimate (Ultimate only... well, also Enterprise) it comes with Interix.
20:01:40 <elliott> If you have a Windows Server OS (why?!?!!) it comes with it.
20:01:44 <elliott> If you have some other Windows 7 version sucks to be you :P
20:01:57 <elliott> But yeah, Interix and Gentoo Prefix are actually pretty polished...
20:02:00 <Gregor> I have Windows No Edition
20:02:05 <elliott> For instance fork() is instant because it isn't implemented in a retarded way on top of Win32.
20:02:09 <elliott> Gregor: That's the BEST edition!
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20:03:09 <elliott> My god, emerge is slow to synchronise.
20:06:21 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:07:55 <fizzie> elliott: My only Windows here is Windows Server 2003; I suppose that'd work. (Except I somewhat fail to see the point.)
20:08:18 <elliott> fizzie: I *think* you need the standalone for that, only Vista's server onwards have it. *Think*.
20:08:24 <elliott> fizzie: Also, the point is FUN!
20:08:42 <elliott> fizzie: You could probably build mcmap with the existing Makefile and Gentoo Prefix :P
20:09:15 <fizzie> Heh. Would it then work on non-POSIX-subsystemy Windowses?
20:09:45 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, you set it up using the I-forget-the-name Gentoo thing so that "cc" is just a wrapper around Visual Studio.
20:09:57 <elliott> fizzie: Admittedly it would be easier just to use MinGW with the Gentoo Prefix's Makefile.
20:10:22 <elliott> fizzie: One thing that Cygwin can do that Interix can't is build a hybrid Win32/POSIX program.
20:10:28 <elliott> e.g. a Win32 program that uses ptys.
20:12:37 <elliott> Is "emerge --sync" meant to take five years?
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20:13:28 <elliott> pikhq: How long is $ emerge --sync meant to take.
20:15:37 <Vorpal> elliott, first sync or later on?
20:15:48 <Vorpal> elliott, since it is rsync the time will vary
20:15:52 <elliott> Vorpal: First sync after install of what I think is a stage1.
20:16:07 <elliott> I think it might be synchronising everything...
20:16:09 <Vorpal> elliott, not stage3? I thought stage1 wasn't supported any more
20:16:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, maybe. This is Gentoo Prefix.
20:16:34 <elliott> Except it says it's deleting things, so I bet I already had one.
20:16:40 <elliott> Vorpal: It has gcc 4.2 and stuff, so maybe it is stage3.
20:16:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well probably
20:16:55 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe a very out of date tree?
20:17:06 <elliott> Vorpal: 2010-03; so only about 7 months out of date.
20:17:13 <elliott> I guess that's reasonably close to "very" for computers.
20:17:45 <Vorpal> elliott, for the portage tree: extremely
20:20:07 <elliott> I wish a better distribution was maintained for Interix :P
20:20:27 <elliott> Hm, Funtoo was started by the same guy as Gentoo?
20:20:39 <elliott> I seem to recall Funtoo's website having something crazy on it...
20:22:26 <elliott> So, er, is it wise to try and install a new package with Portage before updating the system?
20:28:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it might not complain though
20:28:29 <elliott> I don't want to devote the next five years to updating the system :P
20:28:32 <Vorpal> elliott, initial sync can take like 20-30 minutes
20:28:38 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I remember
20:28:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you might be using a bad mirror
20:28:48 <Vorpal> did you select a UK mirror
20:28:57 <Vorpal> elliott, or did you go with the default US one
20:29:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Note that I doubt every mirror has Gentoo Prefix.
20:29:01 <Vorpal> elliott, that's the issue then
20:29:14 <elliott> So this is probably one of, like, 3 I could pick :P
20:29:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway I don't mean update, I mean upgrade.
20:29:33 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc the default US mirror is rate limited if you don't run an official mirror since it is the master sync server for them
20:29:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Can I install a package without upgrading the world? (Isn't that the TERMINOLOGY?)
20:29:39 <Vorpal> or something like that
20:30:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you can but the issue with doing this while it is syncing could be that 1) ebuild is changed while building 2) deps might be messed up possibly
20:30:56 <elliott> So do the binary packages have different names or whatever? I just want the basic X programs i.e. xlogo, xterm, etc. and if there are binary versions that is preferable.
20:31:28 <Vorpal> I'm starting to forget them
20:31:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Won't be long until he does, he's a Debianer now
20:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, so why windowas
20:34:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Because this is entertaining.
20:34:22 <elliott> It disturbs me slightly that the Windows in a VM is performing better than its Ubuntu host.
20:34:44 <Vorpal> elliott, is it xp 64-bit?
20:35:00 <elliott> It's also allocated only 768 megs of ram and a single core.
20:35:02 <Vorpal> elliott, then I'm utterly surprised
20:35:16 <elliott> Vorpal: To be fair, I did disable almost every service... but still.
20:35:19 <Vorpal> elliott, 64-bit XP is the best windows version
20:35:32 <elliott> I dunno about that, very little supports 64-bit on XP :P
20:35:43 <elliott> XP is pretty good though if you configure it.
20:35:55 <elliott> Although Windows 7 has several advantages...
20:36:13 <Vorpal> elliott, xp 64 bit was based on 2003 server iirc
20:36:16 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Yes. And don't ask for a comprehensive list of why.
20:36:18 <Vorpal> which explains why it is snappy
20:36:40 <elliott> Vorpal: NanoXP is based on XP SP3 corporate.
20:36:43 <elliott> (Corporate = doesn't bug you about activation. Ever.)
20:36:55 <elliott> Vorpal: And it's the snappiest Windows around! :P
20:37:47 <elliott> The problem with the server ones is that they're usually configured to give priority to background services, not applications.
20:37:51 <elliott> Which is the opposite of what you want.
20:37:57 <Vorpal> elliott, do nano-2003!
20:37:58 <elliott> And if you change that, well, they're essentially the consumer edition :P
20:38:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Maaaaybe... 2003 is very un-desktop-suitable by default.
20:38:48 <elliott> Vorpal: That will never happen, since XP/64-bit is incredibly unsupported by everything :P
20:39:06 <elliott> Windows 7's start menu is better than XP's at least... because you can just type in a program name and hit enter :P
20:40:41 <Vorpal> elliott, hey I was able to play an old windows 9x game on xp 64
20:40:52 <Vorpal> elliott, planescape iirc
20:41:18 <elliott> Major advantage of NanoXP: It uses the Windows 2000 installer interface.
20:41:22 <elliott> Which is waaaay less gaudy :P
20:41:32 <elliott> ...and doesn't even _install_ the Fisher Price theme.
20:41:59 <fizzie> Is that the XP default blue thing?
20:42:09 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, Fisher PRice.
20:42:29 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, go eat shit fuckers
20:42:38 <Sgeo_> [Possibly not what elliott was referring to]
20:42:45 <elliott> NanoXP comes with two themes: Windows Standard, and Windows Classic. Both are Windows Classic themes, the latter looks like Windows 95 :P
20:44:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Have I mentioned that the resulting C:\WINDOWS is 200 or so megs?
20:44:40 <Sgeo_> slava was in #esoteric ?
20:44:43 <elliott> MORE BENEFITS: C:\Programs instead of C:\Program Files! C:\Users instead of C:\Documents and Settings!
20:45:04 <Sgeo_> elliott, I was being an idiot
20:45:11 <Sgeo_> For a proof to exist, a statement must be true
20:45:19 <elliott> Sgeo_: NOT IF YOU'RE INCONSISTENT
20:45:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Pestov, creator of jEdit, Factor.
20:45:46 <elliott> Oh, wait, I forgot his greatest achievement, Flying Shits 2000.
20:46:11 <elliott> http://factorcode.org/slava/FlyingShits.html
20:46:36 <Sgeo_> So, you have to catch elliott?
20:46:38 <elliott> EMERGE STILL HASN'T FINISHED SYNCING
20:46:40 <Vorpal> "You need a Java compatible browser to run this applet!"
20:46:43 <Vorpal> elliott, will check later
20:46:49 <Vorpal> since I can't run more than w3m atm
20:46:50 <elliott> Vorpal: It's quite possibly not worth it :P
20:47:01 <Vorpal> elliott, summary of it then?
20:47:15 <elliott> It's a game where you catch feces.
20:47:24 <elliott> Evil shits are coming to Earth from Uranus! The only way to stop them is to catch them with your Super-Loo.
20:47:36 <elliott> It was, as the page said, made when he was 13 :P
20:47:44 <Sgeo_> I seem to be having some trouble with it
20:48:05 <Sgeo_> Clicking does nothing
20:48:23 <Sgeo_> Also, some of the text is cut off
20:48:44 <elliott> "The Mac OS X cat program is not actually interrupt-safe"
20:49:21 <elliott> Ohh, {^Raven^} is jonripley.
20:50:08 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I bet gnu could anywhere
20:50:17 <Vorpal> interrupted system call... why the heck really
20:50:22 <Vorpal> EINTR is the stupidest thing ever
20:50:28 <Phantom__Hoover> They have a unique talent for messing up the simplest programs.
20:50:37 <elliott> is the basic transcript on os x
20:50:45 <elliott> Vorpal: EINTR is basically the PC luser problem, isn't it?
20:50:50 <elliott> As outlined in Worse is Better...
20:51:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I prefer correctness over simplicity
20:51:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I prefer reducing the problem until making it correct requires no thought :P
20:51:41 <elliott> For instance, the obvious thing to do here is to not have signals.
20:51:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure that would be nice....
20:51:49 <Gregor> [20:58] eazyigz: can't i manually gc? I mean like in C/C++?
20:51:49 <Gregor> [20:58] bradleymeck: you can use delete
20:51:49 <Gregor> [20:58] brianc: maybe "delete"
20:51:50 <Gregor> [20:58] Gregor bashes all three of you in the head.<CTCP>
20:51:52 <Gregor> [20:59] Gregor: "Manually GC" is meaningless, you cannot manually allocate/deallocate, and delete in JavaScript is not the same as delete in C++.
20:51:53 <elliott> Ha, it wants me to update portage.
20:51:54 <Gregor> [20:59] eazyigz: Gregor: but v8 is c++ based, not JS based
20:52:14 <elliott> Gregor: I suggest you /part that channel forever
20:52:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> Ha, it wants me to update portage. <-- yeah if it wants that you should
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20:52:32 <elliott> * IMPORTANT: 2 news items need reading for repository 'gentoo_prefix'
20:53:13 -!- Behold has joined.
20:53:21 <elliott> Sweet, cmd.exe fails at Unicode :P
20:53:39 <elliott> eselect is ridiculously slow ...
20:53:52 <elliott> Is it written in bash or something? :P
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20:56:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... eselect is iirc written in bash yes
20:56:27 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably fork() still sucks
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20:56:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Interix is implemented at the same layer as Win32; i.e. directly on top of NT.
20:56:55 <elliott> Vorpal: NT has code in it specifically to support fork().
20:57:02 <elliott> So, no, Interix fork() is actually pretty fast.
20:58:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Remember that Interix is actually used in ENTERPRISEY environments.
20:58:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Unlike Cygwin, which is a creaky, half-broken toy.
20:59:40 <elliott> "/opt/gentoo/usr/lib/portage/bin/chpathtool"
20:59:46 <elliott> You might think that this is the most ridiculous path ever.
20:59:56 <elliott> Allow me to tell you what its path is in the Win32 subsystem.
21:00:08 <elliott> C:\SFU\opt\gentoo\usr\lib\portage\bin\chpathtool
21:00:11 <elliott> THAT is the most ridiculous path ever.
21:00:36 <Vorpal> elliott, what happens if you put a literal \ in a filename using this
21:00:58 <Vorpal> elliott, after that: newline in filename (yay)
21:01:05 <elliott> Newlines in filenames are a bug :P
21:01:17 <elliott> They're never useful and make it harder to use things like find etc. safely.
21:01:28 <elliott> Because you need a separate print-with-\0s function... which is useless for console output.
21:01:35 <elliott> So the whole Unix "pass around text" stuff kinda falls apart.
21:01:47 <elliott> Has anyone ever put an \n into a filename intentionally? If yes: Without being a moron?
21:02:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I get a "no such file or directory" when I do $ touch 'a\b'.
21:02:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the other ones that are forbidden. Such as :
21:03:12 <elliott> That works too. Remember that that restriction is at the Win32 level, and Interix is accessing NTFS directly through NT.
21:03:29 <Vorpal> elliott, but \ is on NTFS level?
21:03:32 <elliott> They show as squares in explorer for me.
21:03:48 <Vorpal> elliott, how does c:\ and d:\ and so on show up from interix
21:03:59 <elliott> Vorpal: /dev/fs/C, /dev/fs/D
21:04:08 <elliott> Not the prettiest solution but you can always symlink e.g. /c: there.
21:04:14 <Vorpal> elliott, under /dev? *cringe*
21:04:14 <elliott> Vorpal: / itself is C:\SFU.
21:04:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes. But I would have expected under /mnt
21:04:41 <elliott> But they're not mountpoints :P
21:04:53 <elliott> * IMPORTANT: 2 config files in '//opt/gentoo/etc/' need updating.
21:05:17 <Vorpal> elliott, you can set it to use colordiff if you install it
21:05:39 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe it tries /etc
21:05:39 <elliott> Well. It paused for a second then exited.
21:05:56 <Vorpal> elliott, there is another tool for it too
21:06:25 <elliott> Scans, and then says "nothing left to do, exiting"
21:06:32 <elliott> Maybe they didn't really need updating.
21:06:40 <elliott> OK, pikhq: what's the binary package for the basic X executables?!
21:06:44 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc portage does that already
21:06:54 <Vorpal> elliott, find /opt/gentoo/etc -iname '.*'
21:06:59 <elliott> (SAD OF THE DAY: I need the Cygwin DLL or something somewhere on the system so I can use mintty.)
21:07:00 <Vorpal> elliott, look for any strange ones
21:07:07 <Vorpal> elliott, just to make sure they *are* merged
21:07:14 <Vorpal> elliott, probably ._something
21:07:22 <elliott> .keep_app-admin_eselect-python-0
21:07:31 <elliott> Those are the only strange ones.
21:08:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm they are fine
21:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, they are like .keep for CVS kind of
21:08:44 <Vorpal> portage doesn't track dirs. Just files
21:12:07 <Sgeo_> My dad spent $150 to let me have mobile Internet access while preventing my step-mom from knowing about it?
21:12:27 <elliott> I stopped watching Zero Punctuation and pressed alt-tab to reply, but I can't think of anything to say.
21:14:20 <elliott> Vorpal: So, that masking thing... wtf is it?
21:14:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo_, I... your stepmother must be the most awful person ever
21:14:26 <elliott> Apparently xeyes is MASKED.
21:14:33 <elliott> So I'm just imagining Zorro here.
21:15:28 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: What kitten thing.
21:16:20 <Phantom__Hoover> You know, the one that adds a kitten which follows your mouse around.
21:17:31 <Vorpal> elliott, more specific
21:17:42 <elliott> Vorpal: xeyes is apparently Masked.
21:17:49 <elliott> I'd rather have plain old unmasked eyes on my desktop rather than Zorro.
21:18:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well masked by what
21:18:12 <elliott> At least I seem to recall you can't install things that are masked because Gentoo loves to make everything complicated.
21:18:17 <elliott> Vorpal: * x11-apps/xeyes [ Masked ]
21:18:23 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. No more details?
21:18:25 <elliott> Maybe X11 is masked or something?
21:18:42 <elliott> Do I need to run something specific to ask for more details?
21:18:42 <Vorpal> elliott, what was -s now again
21:18:50 <Vorpal> elliott, try emerge -pv xeyes
21:18:54 <Vorpal> elliott, -p for pretend
21:19:12 <elliott> Masked by missing keyword.
21:19:30 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the interix arch called
21:19:47 <elliott> x86-interix, I think... or something. Let me check.
21:19:54 <Vorpal> elliott, the ebuild is missing that
21:20:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Is there a standard way to look at it, or should I just fish in directories?
21:20:37 <Vorpal> elliott, which version number?
21:20:48 <elliott> 1.1.1. but there's also 1.1.0.
21:20:51 <elliott> I assume you mean of xeyes.
21:21:10 <Vorpal> elliott, less /whatever/your/prefix/is/usr/portage/x11-apps/xeyes/xeyes-1.1.1.ebuild
21:21:18 <Sgeo_> The reason my step-mom would be mad is because she'd see it as a waste of money
21:21:43 <Vorpal> elliott, in other words: the package category/name + version gives ebuild path and name
21:21:53 <elliott> Vorpal: KEYWORDS includes ~x86-linux...
21:22:00 <elliott> does that mean that regular Gentoo users can't install xeyes? :-D
21:22:04 <Vorpal> elliott, they changed it to read ~x86-linux?
21:22:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe 1.1.1 is TESTING xeyes.
21:22:17 <Vorpal> elliott, is 1.1.0 stable?
21:22:20 <elliott> Nope, 1.1.0 has ~x86-linux.
21:22:24 <elliott> Vorpal: x86 is in there but also ~x86-linux.
21:22:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I never heard of ~x86-linux before
21:22:38 <elliott> Vorpal: x86-linux is Gentoo Prefix.
21:22:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well x86 is plain linux then
21:23:02 <elliott> OK, so, how can I tell portage that I don't give a shit about no damn maskin' and I want it anyway? Isn't it editing some conf file?
21:23:02 <Vorpal> elliott, ask pikhq for how to work around this. I forgot
21:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, oh wait wasn't it /etc/portage/something.keywords and add a specific line
21:23:22 <Vorpal> I don't remember details
21:23:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I have a serious question. Do Gentoo users think that every distribution is this over-complicated?
21:23:54 <elliott> I'm just trying to understand the mind of a person who would subject themselves to this.
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21:24:20 <elliott> package.keywords it seems.
21:24:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well having several versions available of a package at one time *is* actually useful sometimes
21:24:40 <Vorpal> elliott, apart from that: no clue
21:24:51 <elliott> *I mean the masking stuff :P
21:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, when I began with it I wanted rolling release. I didn't know about arch then. Heck was arch around in 2004 even?
21:25:23 <elliott> I'm not exactly a noob but just about every Gentoo document confuses me... so much random terminology.
21:25:33 <elliott> Vorpal: arch started in 2002
21:25:43 <Vorpal> elliott, well I didn't know about it anyway
21:25:49 <elliott> Maybe Kitten will run on Interix. :-)
21:26:11 <elliott> Supported platforms: x86/Linux; x86/NT
21:26:46 <elliott> x11-apps/xeyes x86-interix
21:27:04 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc you need
21:27:18 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to list a keyword that it has
21:27:19 <elliott> I need the full version too it seems
21:27:33 <elliott> Vorpal: "For example, if we're not on x86 but would like to install quake3-demo anyway
21:27:37 <elliott> games-fps/quake3-demo x86"
21:27:54 <Vorpal> elliott, well it might :P
21:28:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Well it *should*, there's a compiled xfce-terminal on the DVD image.
21:28:22 <elliott> USE: elibc_Interix kernel_Interix prefix userland_GNU x86-interix
21:28:28 <elliott> FEATURES: nostrip preserve-libs
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21:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, also they put random-non-user-options in USE
21:28:51 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I'd have to fight with Mac hardware to develop it on here.
21:28:56 -!- Behold has joined.
21:28:58 <elliott> When I get a desktop work will continue.
21:29:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, I know USE is crazy.
21:29:04 <Vorpal> elliott, which was really an abuse (pun not originally intended) of USE
21:29:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: More trouble than it's worth, it's not like it has rigorously-supported hardware either.
21:29:26 <elliott> A desktop will really be the most convenient platform to do it on.
21:29:51 <Vorpal> elliott, a thinkpad would work well too
21:29:54 <elliott> I would just like to say that Kitten's package manager will be rigorously sane.
21:30:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but only because ThinkPad gets preferential treatment by kernel devs... the hardware is just as nonstandard as any laptop :P
21:30:23 <Phantom__Hoover> So how long until ais or Keymaker vapes the ClearBF page on the wiki?
21:30:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder why kernel devs like thinkpads?
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21:30:44 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe because it works well mostly. Circular preference
21:31:08 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, "vapes"?
21:31:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Because they were decent when laptops were terrible :P
21:34:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Why does xeyes depend on libxslt.
21:36:17 <Vorpal> elliott, emerge -pvt xeyes
21:36:21 <Vorpal> elliott, this list it as a tree
21:36:25 <elliott> Vorpal: I have no idea, I did "emerge xeyes" and it's installing libxslt, so I don't want to question it :P
21:36:28 <elliott> Can I do that while it installs?
21:36:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it won't list already installed ones
21:36:45 <olsner> maybe you found xcb or something in the depends
21:36:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can do multiple emerges side by side
21:36:56 <elliott> olsner: oh, right, I blame xcb.
21:36:57 <olsner> (iirc that involves XML)
21:37:25 <elliott> All Xlib programs depend on XCB depend on libxslt, wooooo :P
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21:37:46 <olsner> indeed, that's PROGRESS right there
21:40:35 <elliott> Wow, source-based distros are so tedious ... and emerge is so noisy.
21:40:39 <elliott> Why do people put up with this stuff?
21:40:57 <olsner> for the speed of course
21:41:18 <olsner> it takes a while to compile, but it's SO FAST afterwards, like SEVERAL PERCENT faster
21:41:34 <elliott> olsner: Several percent? I doubt that very much ... :P
21:41:43 <elliott> A *single* percent, maximum, unless the comparison is _really_ biased.
21:44:15 <Vorpal> elliott, so use debian interix
21:44:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Not even vaguely maintained.
21:45:14 <Vorpal> elliott, is gentoo/interix maintained?
21:45:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Gentoo/Interix is just Yet Another Gentoo Prefix port.
21:45:45 <elliott> Gentoo Prefix's main targets are OS X, Solaris, other Linuxes.
21:46:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Interix is POSIX, and it has gcc, so porting Gentoo Prefix to it is honestly not that hard.
21:46:07 <olsner> it has "other" as a main target?
21:46:16 <elliott> olsner: Well, Linux, yes. :p
21:46:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It only has one main developer, but hey, it has a swanky installer.
21:46:26 <olsner> this port is *mainly* for everything, but mostly everything else
21:46:49 <elliott> Vorpal: It just uses the main Gentoo Prefix tree (I don't know whether that's the main ports tree, I don't think so since --sync kept printing out a figlet "Gentoo Prefix" from the ports server).
21:46:59 <elliott> Might be maintained as a diff to the ports tree adding the target keywords or whatever.
21:47:03 <Vorpal> olsner, no it is so you can do Gentoo/Debian Linux
21:47:12 <elliott> Vorpal: But really, with a source distro it's quite easy to do ports like this :P
21:47:27 <elliott> But yeah, there's one developer of the port itself, but many more of Gentoo Prefix.
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21:48:07 <elliott> Emerging 6 of 23... boy oh boy this is fun.
21:48:15 <elliott> I can almost taste the wasted CPU cycles.
21:48:52 <olsner> hmm, I shouldn't have closed that mplayer window, I'm never going to be able to watch this episode without rewatching something I've already seen
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21:49:37 <Vorpal> elliott, minecraft weirdness: the fastest tool to break a wooden pressure plate is a pickaxe
21:49:48 <elliott> But is it a WOODEN pickaxe?
21:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, diamond. Because everyone know diamond is so good for cutting wood
21:50:08 <olsner> amber tamblyn sucks in house :/ but I liked her in joan of arcadia
21:50:31 <fizzie> Bleh. Figured out how to make a ray-transparent (it's what Blender calls actually raytracingly transparent stuff, as opposed to just z-sort + blending) object cast shadows based on the material (so the gridwork I have in windows casts grid-shaped shadows), but it's horreebly slow to render that. (I keep dabbling with that house-render.)
21:50:47 <olsner> she's incidentally the daughter of one of the actors in twin peaks
21:50:50 <elliott> We are terrible at this, aren't we.
21:51:15 <fizzie> Also I first thought you were criticizing it for being not minecraft-related enough.
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21:52:09 <olsner> hmm, taub's wife looks like she could be taub's sister
21:53:12 <olsner> Phantom__Hoover: yeah, I just realized they look a lot like each other
21:53:21 <elliott> olsner: well duh that's because of genetics!
21:53:32 <olsner> right, they mix the genes when they have intercourse
21:54:00 <olsner> luckily this means infidelity is not that big a deal since you get your genes in there anyway
21:54:43 <olsner> (there is one of those yahoo answers thingies on this topic, it's kind of fun)
21:56:35 <olsner> was that gentoo installing stuff?
21:59:34 <elliott> olsner: It has a fancy installer and everything.
21:59:39 <elliott> olsner: tl;dr it's the only maintained Interix distro :P
21:59:56 <elliott> olsner: But hey, it has a fancy graphical installer that lets you set up accounts and everything, and installs Interix for you.
22:00:20 <olsner> gentoo/winnt includes interix? this sounds crazy convenient
22:00:34 <olsner> if I had an nt kernel running anywhere, that is
22:00:39 <elliott> olsner: yep, and all the hotfixes
22:00:47 <elliott> olsner: also, it uses the system interix on later OSes
22:00:52 <elliott> olsner: downside is it's a 2 gigabyte ISO :P
22:00:56 <elliott> but yeah, it is really convenient
22:01:02 <elliott> you basically click next a bunch of times and you're done
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22:02:13 <olsner> what is the nature of its non-integration with win32? can it start windows programs at all?
22:02:15 -!- Behold has joined.
22:04:56 <elliott> olsner: Well, /dev/fs/C/WINDOWS/notepad.exe works.
22:05:13 <elliott> olsner: The "non-integration" is simply that you can't have a program that makes both Interix and Win32 calls (like e.g. mintty does).
22:06:26 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:06:47 <elliott> olsner: Also it's a lot faster than Cygwin. :p
22:08:52 <olsner> made out of win and awesome, eh?
22:10:03 <olsner> Win32some, Lose32some?
22:10:14 <olsner> incidentally 32 is the ascii for space
22:10:43 <elliott> olsner: Downside: at least Cygwin has binary packages :P
22:11:00 <elliott> olsner: You can even run Gentoo Prefix on Cygwin, if you want the true slow-compilation experience.
22:12:02 <olsner> hmm, i should have proper whisky glasses
22:12:46 <elliott> olsner: you should be like me, use this channel as a substitute for drinking hard liquor while looking grumpy and pissed off
22:13:02 <elliott> ok, i don't exactly have first-hand experience, but I'm pretty sure it's equivalent
22:13:35 <olsner> sure, being grumpy and pissed off doesn't require alcohol (or anything at all, really)
22:13:50 <elliott> olsner: oh sure, but I do it in a really classy way.
22:14:00 <elliott> Interix might be faster than Cygwin but ./configure still ain't quick :P
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22:21:38 <Gregor> PANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORAPANDORA
22:22:43 <olsner> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZcqV7pLC0A
22:23:41 <quintopia> someone help replace the speechbox? this one's shortcircuited
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22:25:17 <elliott> `addquote * quintopia sits on gregor
22:25:29 <elliott> 17 of 23 ... holy fuck this is slow.
22:25:37 <HackEgo> 282) * quintopia sits on gregor
22:25:39 <elliott> Vorpal: is rolling release really worth this crap
22:26:50 <olsner> "rolling release" is where packages get updated continuously?
22:28:40 <elliott> "Putting Gentoo users on the same level as ricers is a bit unfair; the Gentoo users don't annoy the general public and cause traffic hazards."
22:28:41 <olsner> ah, that sucks... but the alternative also sucks :D
22:28:54 <elliott> Gentoo users don't annoy the general public?
22:29:01 <elliott> well maybe not but certainly the Linux public...
22:29:14 <elliott> olsner: why does rolling release suck? sure everything is hideously unmatched with each other but you get that anyway
22:29:18 <olsner> the general public is luckily complete unaware of their even existing
22:29:20 <elliott> since no fucking release cycles are synched up
22:29:41 <elliott> they do cause the analogy of traffic hazards too... well, for developers
22:29:43 <Sgeo> I asked my game programming professor if there was an equiv. of Haskell's Maybe types in C#
22:29:50 <Sgeo> He doesn't know Haskell, so
22:29:52 <elliott> "game programming professor"
22:30:04 <elliott> quintopia: this is where we pull out our standard line about Sgeo's college
22:30:06 <Sgeo> I think I'll write some code that does the same
22:30:10 <olsner> hmm, "their even existing", but I think that's how you say it?
22:30:29 <elliott> Sgeo: useless, C# already has null
22:30:34 <elliott> so Maybe is completely unsafe, basically
22:30:57 <j-invariant> 22:40 < elliott> "game programming professor"
22:31:04 <Sgeo> Can you put null into a bool?
22:31:13 <olsner> null is like Maybe with implicit fromJust
22:31:19 <elliott> Sgeo: you can certainly put _|_, but then you can in Haskell too :-)
22:31:35 <elliott> Vorpal: from a thread about funroll-loops.org on the Gentoo forums, circa 2004: "One week later: this is on the Arch forums. One month later: the Arch people get the joke."
22:32:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that *might* be biased though :P
22:32:41 <olsner> aw fuck, pandora is now making schlager music
22:33:00 <elliott> here's Kitten's CRAZY policy: I upgrade packages, except when that would break shit!
22:33:23 <elliott> also, I upgrade gcc every two major releases! :-P
22:33:36 <elliott> (Well... I'm not going to ship the latest gcc, considering its stability record...)
22:33:51 <oerjan> olsner: vikingarnarna?
22:34:14 <elliott> "* Gentoo does save time because it is easier to administer -- emerging does not require user intervention and its CPU usage can be tuned"
22:34:15 <elliott> This person has never used apt.
22:36:33 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:40:50 <elliott> "That's the power of Gentoo, being able to choose whether or not you want to install all of KDE just to get arts, or whether you want to enable gnome support in Abiword. No RPM-based distro can do that."
22:41:07 <elliott> (Reading anti-Gentoo material helps me forget that I'm running emerge in the background.)
22:43:34 <Sgeo> How does Gentoo deal with self-hosted compilers other than gcc?
22:44:01 <elliott> Same way it deals with gcc?
22:46:39 <Sgeo> So, it just allows binaries
22:46:41 <Sgeo> Just like that
22:48:10 <elliott> Sgeo: Um, no, it uses the binary to compile the source.
22:48:21 <elliott> Vorpal: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35890
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22:49:23 <Sgeo> So, if I write a self-hosted SgeoLang compiler, I can just get the binary to be downloaded, even if it's only temporary before it gets compiled on the user's machine?
22:49:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Are you assuming that Gentoo has some kind of... religious objection to binaries?
22:52:31 <Sgeo> I think I thought that part of the reason behind it using source instead of binaries mostly is ... safety. Somehow. Although what sane person actually reads all of the source code for everything that they use?
22:52:49 <Sgeo> I'm sure zzo38 could do it
22:55:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35890 <-- what
22:55:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Lead GAIM developer gets fed up of Gentoo users, hilarity ensues.
22:56:11 <Vorpal> elliott, his request is a bit stupid though
22:56:32 <Vorpal> elliott, but stupid as well
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23:04:16 <elliott> Did I mention that Kitten is made of happiness and yay?
23:06:19 <elliott> Vorpal: wow! emerge crashed!
23:06:37 <elliott> "error: sys/poll.h: No such file or directory"
23:09:11 <Sgeo> "*** Bug 124595 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
23:11:09 <elliott> Sgeo: Yeah, that's the "get rid of Quod Libet god damn" bug.
23:13:26 <elliott> Vorpal: will libX11 even _work_ on a platform without poll?
23:14:07 <elliott> it's just in poll.h, not sys/poll.h
23:15:17 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Quot Libet?
23:15:40 <elliott> Sgeo: The Quod Libet developer asked for the package's removal, as the package was unmaintained and broken.
23:15:51 <oerjan> latin lesson: quod = what, quot = how many
23:15:53 <elliott> And because it was causing many, many incorrect bug reports for the developer.
23:16:04 <elliott> (Due to the package being broken.)
23:16:07 <elliott> The Gentoo developers said "no".
23:17:18 <oerjan> maybe he should send them a bill for his wasted time
23:17:46 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, that should be possible
23:19:01 <elliott> oerjan: consider that things like Bitcoin essentially use time as a currency :)
23:19:10 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:19:16 <elliott> because a bitcoin is a proof that you've done at least this much computing work, which takes about this much time
23:23:49 <elliott> Vorpal: oh wow: http://pastebin.com/7VRZpfmy
23:24:04 <elliott> In which Gentoo tells everybody who installs libX11 to bother the X.Org developers.
23:27:24 <pikhq> elliott: Implicit declarations can have really surprising results sometimes.
23:27:38 <elliott> pikhq: Yeees... but a distro shouldn't be telling EVERYONE who installs a package to bug the developers.
23:27:44 <elliott> Because that way lies FIVE THOUSAND DUPLICATE BUG REPORTS.
23:28:06 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not entirely sure why emerge outputs those QA notices by default.
23:28:11 <elliott> pikhq: Better would be for the *damn package maintainers* to be able to run it and get those notices to report.
23:28:16 <pikhq> elliott: Cause it's kinda intended for the maintainers.
23:28:34 <elliott> Right ... but the wording doesn't say "maintainers, report this" it says "report this" :P
23:28:50 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, the Gentoo Prefix installer Just Works.
23:29:11 <elliott> pikhq: And I'm on the slow, slow path to installing xeyes with only one thing I had to fix (link /usr/include/sys/poll.h to /usr/include/poll.h).
23:30:19 <elliott> "Then there are the people who compile everything with "-O3 -fomit-frame-pointers -ffast-math -fguess-at-hard-math -mmmx -msse2 -fexpensive-optimizations -mcpu=Pentium4 -march=AthlonXP -finline-functions" and don't understand why things crash from time to time." --Gentoo forums
23:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: You should integrate -fguess-at-hard-math into the cfunge build process
23:32:13 <elliott> pikhq: Have I mentioned that in Kitten, the package manager automatically updates all packages before installing a new one? :p
23:32:24 <elliott> That's my INNOVATIVE solution to the "packages don't like each other" problem.
23:33:23 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, I just realised something. You know how you said that dynamically-linked stuff will fail if it's built for prefix / and you put it in e.g. /arch/x86?
23:35:24 <elliott> pikhq: That's not a problem if you don't dynamically link!
23:35:45 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, I just realised something.
23:36:00 <elliott> pikhq: The only directories that actually differ depending on the architecture are /lib and /bin, right?
23:36:25 <elliott> Most distros have /lib -> /lib64 or vice versa and then use /lib32. Well... why not just have /bin64 and /bin32? Except by /bin64 I mean /bin-x86-64, of course.
23:42:04 <pikhq> elliott: A handful of packages will actually install different headers as well.
23:42:36 <elliott> pikhq: I am about to run xeyes on Gentoo on Interix on Windows NT, shown on an X11 server running on Win32 running on Windows NT.
23:43:59 <lambdabot> foldl f z (x:xs) = foldl f (f z x) xs
23:44:10 <lambdabot> foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs)
23:44:27 <elliott> pikhq: How does one take a screenshot in Windows if one has no Print Screen key, do you know? :p
23:45:12 <elliott> Apparently you have to use the onscreen keyboard :P
23:45:25 <quintopia> just because it is defined recursively using itself doesn't mean its functionality is absolutely necessary as a primary syntactical element... is there a way to define it with respect to other functions only?
23:45:46 <elliott> quintopia: no. haskell has no recursive primitives
23:45:52 <elliott> everything is implemented in terms of recursion
23:46:00 <elliott> quintopia: you can implement the Y combinator with a data type
23:46:11 <elliott> and you can use that to implement fix
23:46:17 <elliott> so technically you don't need to recurse
23:46:43 <elliott> pikhq: Jesus though, is installing xeyes meant to take hours?
23:46:55 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, from scratch?
23:47:02 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, X has a giant dependency tree.
23:47:06 <elliott> pikhq: Well, installing libxcb upwards and all, yeah.
23:47:13 <elliott> pikhq: Faster than Cygwin :P
23:51:14 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
23:51:32 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
23:52:39 <fungot> . "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~
23:53:51 <quintopia> fungot strips a lot of special chars by replacing them with .
23:53:52 <fungot> quintopia: that'll never grow the stack indefinitely. i assume irc has limits to the language you choose pales in comparison to its peers, perl, etc.
23:54:32 <oerjan> quintopia: i see only a few .'s
23:55:01 <elliott> pikhq: for some reason xeyes causes 64% cpu usage in the posix process...
23:55:55 <quintopia> so what happened to ^B? that makes bold right? did the ^C override it?
23:55:56 <oerjan> quintopia: however ^B-^H are probably stripped by the channel +c mode
23:56:33 <oerjan> ^O, ^V and ^W also are missing
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23:57:52 <oerjan> does anyone else see the 128 and up a while characters as double inverted?
23:58:06 <elliott> oerjan: that's ctrl+foo, I think
23:58:09 <elliott> which irssi shows as inverted foo
23:58:29 <elliott> I think ^@ is 127 or something
23:58:36 <elliott> and something = offset of H from @
23:58:40 <quintopia> after which are undisplayable characters in this font...
23:58:42 <elliott> and that's shown as inverted H in irssi
23:59:11 <oerjan> elliott: except i don't see them as a single char but as two equal copies of the x-128 one, which is itself x-64 inverted i think
23:59:29 <oerjan> that is, i see char 128 as two inverted @'s
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23:59:58 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
00:00:33 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: You should integrate -fguess-at-hard-math into the cfunge build process <-- what
00:00:40 <elliott> Vorpal: see the line above
00:01:13 <quintopia> 16*8=128 okay...since when is 128 a euro symbol >_>
00:03:00 <oerjan> quintopia: no, someone mentioned the other it's windows-something-or-other
00:03:58 <oerjan> which is based on 8859-1, but fills in the 128-159 characters with its own values i think
00:05:17 <oerjan> but those chars are useless i think, anyway
00:05:44 <oerjan> quintopia: oh. it's the recode_fallback setting
00:05:49 <elliott> pikhq: Vorpal: xeyes running on Gentoo/Interix/WinNT, displayed on an X server running on Win32/WinNT: http://ompldr.org/vNzV6OA
00:06:21 <oerjan> i changed it to iso-8859-1 myself when changing to unicode, but it was windows-something before
00:06:28 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:06:55 <oerjan> which might be why we see different things
00:07:13 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
00:07:20 <oerjan> there, no i see a euro sign too
00:07:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:08:01 <quintopia> ^bf ++++++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
00:08:13 <oerjan> i think i'll keep the CP1252, someone (i think it was pikhq) said it was the defacto thing for irssi when not doing utf-8
00:08:35 <oerjan> quintopia: yay we switched settings ;D
00:09:12 <elliott> "ps -A" will show windows processes on Interix
00:09:16 <elliott> because ps is backed by the actual NT process tree
00:09:26 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
00:09:26 <quintopia> i'm going back to CP1252 also. at least it displays something meaningful there :P
00:09:49 <oerjan> huh that didn't show right
00:09:58 <quintopia> no this one has a lot of cool characters at the end
00:10:18 <oerjan> i guess that had so many strange chars that irssi thought it couldn't be cp1252
00:11:20 <oerjan> or that it thought it was utf-8
00:11:32 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
00:11:55 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[.+]
00:12:38 * oerjan considers going back too
00:13:07 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[.+]
00:13:22 <oerjan> now at least the proper iso chars show right
00:15:29 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:15:36 <elliott> pikhq: http://ompldr.org/vNzV6OA
00:16:05 <quintopia> i don't understand why they put mu in there but not pi
00:19:20 <oerjan> quintopia: SI prefix, i guess
00:20:21 <pikhq> elliott: If I had need to use Windows as my main OS, I would probably have a similar setup.
00:21:53 <elliott> pikhq: Now to replace cmd.exe with a decent terminal emulator.
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00:23:34 <Ilari> For some reason houston estimate has now frozen on Feburary 2nd...
00:28:21 <oerjan> Ilari: all mathematically based estimates are obviously obsolete at this moment
00:29:21 <elliott> they'll be useful for RIR depletion once the allocation actually gets made :P
00:29:23 <elliott> [[The remaining hurdle was that several of the VM's low-level subroutines were written directly in GNU assembler, and not C++. Microsoft's toolchain uses a different assembler syntax, and I don't fancy writing the same routines twice, especially since the code in question is already x86-specific. Instead, I've decided to eliminate assembly code from the VM altogether. Factor's compiler infrastructure has perfectly good assembler DSLs for x86 and Po
00:29:23 <elliott> C written in Factor itself already.
00:29:23 <elliott> Essentially, I rewrite the GNU assembler source files in Factor itself. The individual assembler routines have been replaced by new functionality added to both the non-optimizing and optimizing compiler backends. This avoids the issue of the GNU assembler -vs- Microsoft assembler syntax entirely. Now all assembly in the implementation is consistently written in the same postfix Factor assembler syntax.]]
00:29:33 <elliott> Factor is the most advanced language that nobody wants to use ever.
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00:32:53 <pikhq> That is the correct answer for doing assembly in a Forth-like.
00:33:07 <elliott> Factor isn't a Forth-like.
00:33:22 <elliott> hmm, what does it mean if you have PermitEmptyPasswords yes, but you can't log in to a user with no password via ssh?
00:33:26 <elliott> results in "Access denied"
00:33:36 <pikhq> Concatenative stack-based language?
00:33:40 <pikhq> I'm calling that a Forth-like.
00:34:33 <elliott> double { double double } "cdecl"
00:34:36 <elliott> pikhq: "Joy-like" is far more appropriate
00:34:51 <elliott> pikhq: Forth is based around peeking and poking random memory locations. Forth code has no structure, no quotation, no lambdas, no combinators.
00:35:03 <elliott> Joy and Factor are heavily based around purely-functional combinators and quotations.
00:35:16 <elliott> As such, they bare little relation to Forth other than being concatenative.
00:35:46 <pikhq> Oh, it's not that low-level?
00:36:07 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, Factor does not let you have words with inconsistent stack effect.
00:36:28 <oerjan> <elliott> hmm, what does it mean if you have PermitEmptyPasswords yes, but you can't log in to a user with no password via ssh? <-- perhaps empty is not technically the same as none, in this case?
00:36:28 <pikhq> Okay, then. At most, Forth-inspired. Which is of course short for concatenative. :P
00:36:37 <elliott> oerjan: no, it has an empty password :P
00:36:42 <elliott> pikhq: And functional combinators like "bi" make up a large part of Forth code.
00:37:01 <oerjan> elliott: ok, disregard wild speculation then
00:37:20 <elliott> I'm just going to give the account a password :P
00:38:30 <pikhq> elliott: You could just give it an SSH private key...
00:40:12 <elliott> pikhq: this is just for local use though
00:45:29 <elliott> hmm, how the hell does ssh decide what your HOME is?
00:46:35 <pikhq> Normal login process?
00:47:13 <elliott> pikhq: yeah, how does that work, there's no /etc/passwd on interix :)
00:49:31 <pikhq> Clearly the interix libc does magic.
00:50:04 <elliott> pikhq: prolly, thing is, when i start interix from cmd.exe or whatever it gets my home directory that i changed since installing thingybob...gentoo prefix
00:50:08 <elliott> but ssh, it uses the old one
00:52:19 <elliott> pikhq: I feel my inclination to work on Kitten increasing.
00:52:35 <elliott> Mostly because this NanoXP installation's usage has actually been smoother than Ubuntu and that's just not right...
00:54:01 <elliott> pikhq: HAVE I MENTIONED HOW EASY IT IS TO CREATE A KITTEN PACKAGE LATELY
00:57:09 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to HaskellLove.
00:57:40 <elliott> HaskellLove: no haskell love allowed!
00:58:38 -!- HaskellLove has changed nick to copumpkin.
00:59:05 <elliott> copumpkin: hey you should give me +o on #haskell, that would be a brilliant idea
01:00:35 <oerjan> to spread a little joy and chaos, obviously
01:01:56 <elliott> copumpkin: ah, but to be able, for a day, to show the world love.
01:06:56 <elliott> I like the part where Windows let me just choose not to enter a serial key and it didn't complain.
01:07:03 <elliott> "Oh, you don't want to? That's... that's okay, I guess."
01:25:56 <pikhq> Not entering a serial key?
01:26:33 <elliott> pikhq: I think the iso might be cracked or something. Although IIRC it's an OEM ISO of some kind.
01:27:23 <pikhq> elliott: That's quite abnormal.
01:33:34 <elliott> pikhq: Next up: Gentoo Prefix on Win7!
01:34:02 <elliott> Meanwhile: http://i.imgur.com/UAjbo.jpg
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01:45:51 <elliott> pikhq: I have come to the conclusion that all the POSIX layers on Windows are braindamaged.
01:46:05 <Ilari> Haha... Binary file format with a text header (so that the header stuff would be easily editable with a text editor)...
01:46:25 <elliott> pikhq: Even Cygwin wants to exist in its own universe by having its own interpreters for Python, etc.
01:46:49 <elliott> pikhq: So if all you want is to be able to use bash, coreutils, gcc, etc. on Windows, you're basically out of luck.
01:51:32 <Sgeo> elliott, what does MinGW do? Or is it not a POSIX layr
01:51:49 <elliott> MinGW is just gcc-for-Windows; its POSIX layer is MSYS, which is a bad, old, outdated fork of Cygwin.
01:51:50 <Gregor> MinGW is a nothing layer, it's just a bunch of ports.
01:52:36 <elliott> The basic problem is that Cygwin tries to be "too much" ... meaning that it utterly fails to integrate with command-line Windows programs.
01:55:08 <elliott> Also it maintains its own home directory which is just silley.
01:59:04 <Gregor> I believe that decision predates Windows having such a concept.
01:59:49 <elliott> Gregor: Probably... but hysterical raisins are rarely good justifications for not /fixing/ something.
02:00:03 <elliott> If you don't break minor compatibility every decade or so, your software is never going to get any better.
02:00:49 <elliott> Gregor: ...besides, My Documents has always existed.
02:01:13 <elliott> The fact that its name is cringe-worthy (well, was; it no longer exists) doesn't mean it isn't a home directory :P
02:01:34 <Ilari> ... Well, at least until text editor corrupts the binary part when editing the text part... :-)
02:01:39 <Gregor> There weren't per-user home directories in 9x, although there were (poorly-implemented) users.
02:01:52 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but nobody used the multiple users.
02:02:04 <elliott> Gregor: Although maybe the sort of people who use Cygwin did.
02:02:22 <elliott> Perhaps they called one of them "root", and refused to install any software with their (equally-privileged) own-name account.
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02:03:51 <elliott> Oh wow, in 1999 Cygwin was released as a commercial product.
02:04:05 <elliott> I cannot imagine a bigger letdown of a purchase.
02:05:10 <pikhq> elliott: Dude, it got you a Win32 build environment before such a thing was cheap-to-free.
02:05:32 <elliott> pikhq: No. Cygwin does not and never has provided a Win32 build environment.
02:05:36 <elliott> It provides a *Cygwin* build environment.
02:05:54 <elliott> (OK, you can do -mwindows and some hackery... but I think it still depends on cygwin1.dll in the end.)
02:06:00 <pikhq> It can build native Win32 programs.
02:06:03 <elliott> (And you don't get Win32 API headers, of course.)
02:06:08 <elliott> pikhq: *If* you have the headers...
02:06:27 <Gregor> You can build native Win32 programs on Cygwin, and its installer can install the relevant headers etc.
02:06:29 <pikhq> Haven't those been readily available?
02:06:40 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Dude, it got you a Win32 build environment before such a thing was cheap-to-free.
02:06:45 <elliott> So this only applies *before* MinGW existed.
02:06:56 <elliott> Before MinGW existed, Cygwin was not a viable environment to build Windows programs.
02:07:39 <elliott> pikhq: And I'm sure Wacom or something was available pretty cheap before Cygwin was released in 1999.
02:07:52 <elliott> ("not free!" -- neither was Cygwin.)
02:09:04 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know what? Fuck Win32. As a whole.
02:09:41 <elliott> pikhq: Totally...but I can't really shake this feeling of irritation until Windows in a VM isn't outperforming its host.
02:10:18 <elliott> Ooh, perhaps I could advertise Kitten like that: "The only Linux distribution that lets you watch Windows perform worse!"
02:11:30 <pikhq> elliott: You *could* strip down a Linux distro until it's as featured as Windows XP.
02:11:44 <elliott> pikhq: Windows XP isn't featured?
02:11:56 <elliott> I doubt removing random commands would make a Linux distro go faster.
02:12:06 <elliott> pikhq: It's X11, really. Sigh.
02:12:08 <pikhq> Removing most of a DE would, though.
02:12:41 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, if someone wrote an Xlib replacement that somehow talked to Win32, and then removed every Windows program, it'd probably make any X11 program 10x snappier :P
02:13:12 <pikhq> That would be, uh, an X server.
02:13:21 <elliott> pikhq: No. I said Xlib replacement.
02:13:39 <pikhq> It would be a lot *of* an X server, then.
02:13:41 <elliott> pikhq: Note the lack of message generation/parsing and network round-trips.
02:13:51 <pikhq> IIRC Xlib lets you directly generate messages.
02:13:55 <elliott> pikhq: Yes. But it would differ in the important ways.
02:14:02 <elliott> OK, don't implement that part :P
02:14:07 <pikhq> And you know full well that X on localhost uses shared memory, anyways.
02:14:24 <pikhq> Still, the message generation and parsing is ridiculous.
02:14:29 <elliott> Sure... but it's still more overhead than sticking the GUI in the kernel :P
02:14:45 <elliott> (Yes, this is architecturally unsound, but so is the rest of Linux.)
02:15:02 <pikhq> There's really not much overhead in sticking the GUI in the kernel (see: Windows).
02:15:29 <elliott> Perhaps Wayland will be better, but I'm sceptical.
02:15:37 <pikhq> At least compared to X11, which has more context switches then directly calling into the kernel.
02:15:44 <elliott> I fear that a lot of window managers will be lost in the tradition as Wayland is much less flexible there.
02:15:54 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, it's much more flexible.
02:15:57 <elliott> Anyone want to bet on whether Ratpoison will work in/be ported to Wayland?
02:16:03 <elliott> pikhq: Programs decorate their own windows.
02:16:29 <pikhq> elliott: s/decorate/can decorate/
02:17:30 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, WMs still need porting.
02:18:18 <elliott> pikhq: And of course the sun will go cold before a lot of people abandon X11, so I imagine that for the next N years, anything other than Gtk/Qt desktop programs will be relegated to running under rootless X.
02:19:25 <pikhq> elliott: Still quite likely an improvement.
02:19:38 <pikhq> elliott: After all, moving Gtk and Qt over gets you 99% of what normal people use.
02:19:46 <pikhq> With X as the legacy technology.
02:20:11 <elliott> pikhq: Yes -- but I'm not normal. OK, so most things I use are Gtk, but, dammit, WMs.
02:20:39 <pikhq> *In theory*, writing a Wayland compositor will be no harder than writing an X WM.
02:22:20 <elliott> pikhq: *In theory*. But anyway, it's not the difficulty, it's whether it will happen.
02:22:31 <elliott> pikhq: Want to bet on whether dwm/wmii will be officially ported to Wayland before the decade's out?
02:23:00 <elliott> pikhq: How about ratpoison, now that it's abandoned for Stump-"Oh-god-SBCL-is-a-royal-pain-in-the-arse"-WM?
02:23:20 <elliott> (Oh dear, turning every name into a comment on what it's naming. Am I turning into tuomov?)
02:23:55 <pikhq> It must be said that Wayland's *rendering model* is at least much better than X's.
02:24:27 <pikhq> Here is how you do graphics on Wayland: write to buffer. Tell compositor that the buffer changed.
02:24:42 <elliott> pikhq: Here's how you do graphics on Plan 9: Write to /dev/screen.
02:25:00 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, yes, Plan 9 does it all better.
02:25:30 <elliott> pikhq: Here's how you write a WM on Plan 9: Set up /dev/{screen,keyboard,mouse} (IIRC) in child processes to point to buffer. Decorate windows however you wish, spit out the result to /dev/screen.
02:25:38 <elliott> Erm, just /dev/screen is a buffer.
02:25:47 <elliott> /dev/keyboard and /dev/mouse you just filter on whether the window is active or not.
02:26:50 <pikhq> Oh dear *God* the context switches you get with a compositing manager.
02:27:14 <elliott> pikhq: Plan 9 has no compositing because fuck you.
02:27:31 <pikhq> Let's say you click on a button in a window.
02:27:55 <pikhq> Kernel → Server → Client → Server → Compositor → Server → maybe kernel
02:28:47 <elliott> Plan 9: kernel -> wm -> window
02:29:35 <elliott> Kernel notices mouse event, writes it to /dev/mouse, WM reads it, decides to write to the window's /dev/mouse, does so via the kernel, the window reads it via the kernel, and handles it.
02:30:53 <elliott> pikhq: I'M SORRY, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, THERE'S TOO MUCH PLAN 9 IN MY EAR.
02:31:50 <elliott> pikhq: SAD THING OF THE DAY: The wonderful ratpoison logo was changed.
02:32:16 <oerjan> THOSE RATS POISONED THE LOGO
02:32:31 <elliott> pikhq: Wonderful old logo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ratpoison.png
02:32:37 <elliott> pikhq: Rubbish new logo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Ratpoison_new.png
02:35:19 <elliott> Why'd you switch to xfce again?
02:37:10 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, switching to Debian?
02:38:40 <pikhq> No, it was before that.
02:39:23 <elliott> Series 2 of Yogscast Minecraft SMP starts tomorrow!
02:39:36 <elliott> Maybe they'll set the server to hellworld rather than wait for fixed Nether portals. Well, presumably.
02:40:44 <elliott> pikhq: Have you watched the Yogscast.
02:40:52 <pikhq> elliott: Should I?
02:41:07 <elliott> pikhq: Oh god yes. It's hilarious and amazing.
02:41:34 <elliott> pikhq: Start with the plain Survival Multiplayer videos, then go on to Survival Island. You can skip the other misc. videos they have if you want -- they're just filler -- but they *are* amusing filler.
02:41:59 <elliott> pikhq: Note that the series isn't strictly a Let's Play, it's kind of scripted... oh, I can't explain, just watch them.
02:42:47 <elliott> pikhq: A lot of the time it's two British people doing stupid things and reacting hilariously dimly, and you can't go wrong with that.
02:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: Lemme get you a playlist link.
02:44:01 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=F60520313D07F366
02:53:00 <elliott> pikhq: ARE YOU WATCHING also i thought this was in -minecraft
02:58:35 <elliott> pikhq: Should I write a WM or resist the temptation.
03:04:52 <elliott> quintopia: Oh certainly, but I might just ship dwm or wmii or something.
03:05:26 <elliott> quintopia: Currently I just need to figure out how to make the PUREST FORM OF A PACKAGE MANAGER.
03:06:41 <quintopia> i think the purest form would be no package manager :P
03:07:04 <elliott> quintopia: that's not the purest form.
03:07:09 <quintopia> just a database filled with websites where you can get the source
03:08:06 <elliott> quintopia: that lacks such things as "uninstallation"
03:08:14 <quintopia> it never puts stuff in places where you can't find it, because you had to put everything everywhere yourself
03:08:32 * Sgeo emotionally ills
03:09:23 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't care how bad you're feeling, (1) ill is not a verb, and (2) "emotionally ill" is a silly phrase.
03:09:55 <copumpkin> what amuses me is that my iphone corrects ill to i'll
03:10:21 <pikhq> elliott: Yay British people reacting dimly.
03:10:27 <elliott> copumpkin: iphone autocorrection is both the only thing that makes the keyboard even vaguely acceptable, and the thing that makes typing correctly with it nearly impossible
03:10:27 <Sgeo> My Android turns Il to I'll, but Ill stays Ill
03:10:34 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, I think I've seen a couple of their videos.
03:10:40 <elliott> pikhq: Wait until it gets a plot.
03:10:43 <Sgeo> As I feel like I need to type out i l l, it gets really annoying
03:10:44 <elliott> pikhq: (Yes, it gets an overarching plot.)
03:10:51 <elliott> (Impossible to explain, just keep watching it in order.)
03:10:54 <Sgeo> elliott, what is "it"?
03:11:00 <quintopia> my android phone does none of the above because i turned that shit off
03:11:06 <elliott> Sgeo: The Yogscast: Minecraft Survival Multiplayer.
03:11:20 <elliott> i have a new life philosophy which is not to type on phones
03:12:30 <quintopia> i like how that's one of the cases where you must split the infinitive for it to parse correctly
03:12:44 <elliott> I split infinitives like ATOMS.
03:12:48 <quintopia> or use the present participle i suppose
03:12:50 <elliott> (In large, well-funded research facilities.)
03:14:05 <oerjan> quintopia: um i thought not splitting the infinitive had the same meaning in that case...
03:14:50 <oerjan> might depend on stress when spoken?
03:15:03 <elliott> my new policy is not to type on phones, i.e. my policy is something other than "type on phones"
03:15:12 <elliott> admittedly the stress could change the meaning to the intended one, yes
03:15:25 <elliott> "not to" and "to not" are almost equivalent when you're speaking at conversational speeds anyway
03:15:40 <elliott> hooray for redundancy in language
03:17:37 <Sgeo> (to not type) seems like a verb, while not (to type) seems like a negated verb
03:18:46 <elliott> Sgeo: "my policy (is not) to type" is how it parses by default
03:18:53 <elliott> whereas I want "my policy is to (not type)"
03:19:12 <Sgeo> Ooh, that's a non-equivalent parsing
03:21:58 <pikhq> "Find some coal", eh? Well. Who needs coal when you've got a hole?
03:21:58 <elliott> pikhq: I might keep developing Kitten in a VM.
03:22:30 <pikhq> Sadly, this predates charcoal.
03:23:10 <elliott> pikhq: They get more competent as time goes on. :)
03:23:16 <elliott> pikhq: You're looking through the eyes of the first-time player.
03:23:29 <elliott> Lewis (the other one) is ... _meant_ to be more competent :P
03:23:31 <pikhq> elliott: I read about it first. :P
03:23:40 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but instead of the wiki, Simon has Lewis!
03:23:47 <elliott> And Lewis is hilarious, unlike wikis!
03:26:53 <oerjan> "The only winning move is not to play."
03:27:27 <oerjan> "The important thing is not to stop questioning."
03:27:49 <elliott> oerjan: "is to not" reads better, anyway
03:28:07 <oerjan> the next example agrees with quintopia: "Your task is not to seek for love"
03:28:48 <oerjan> "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
03:29:23 <oerjan> i skipped "The main thing is not to install Flash!"
03:29:57 <elliott> pikhq: Top comments on Part 3:
03:29:58 <elliott> i die inside when he breaks dirt with a pickaxe.
03:29:58 <elliott> I cringed when he used the pick-axe to dig dirt.
03:29:58 <elliott> SaotaTheSangheili 1 week ago 36
03:30:13 <oerjan> "The scope of this document is not to tell you how to install and set up a. LATEX system"
03:31:05 <quintopia> does dirt wear out pickaxes? or is it just the inefficiency compared to shovels?
03:31:34 <elliott> quintopia: everything wears out tools
03:31:50 <oerjan> quintopia: we might suspect that the "rule" against splitting infinitives is the reason why it's ambiguous in the first place
03:31:56 <elliott> oerjan: well consider that "is not to" is basically a typo of sorts
03:32:00 <quintopia> i meant at an unreasonably fast rate of course
03:32:05 <elliott> although given time it will probably become equivalent
03:32:11 <elliott> quintopia: well picks are precious
03:32:12 <oerjan> elliott: even in the wargames quote? :D
03:32:15 <elliott> quintopia: it's just OCD :)
03:32:30 <elliott> oerjan: well, not typo. just misuse. but ofc misuse is just innovation a few years early.
03:32:35 <pikhq> quintopia: Using the wrong tool will wear it out doubly.
03:32:50 <quintopia> oerjan: it's not really a rule. people just say whatever sounds best.
03:33:10 <oerjan> elliott: the thing is that some people have considered "is to not" to be wrong in principle, even it's a misguided rule
03:33:20 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, but they're stupid
03:33:42 <Sgeo> Split infinitives. Only in English.
03:33:44 <elliott> oerjan: "To not type is my new policy" is the correct way or something i guess
03:33:49 <Sgeo> [Note: Possibly not true]
03:34:26 <oerjan> elliott: well "to not type" looks ugly to me...
03:34:37 <elliott> oerjan: looks fine to me, you're insufficiently native
03:34:53 <oerjan> elliott: or maybe i'm just _old_
03:35:16 <elliott> oerjan: yeah you're what, 57?
03:35:39 <elliott> man, i'm only going to be like 45 to 55 when oerjan dies
03:36:01 <elliott> oerjan: sign up for cryonics kthxbai
03:36:09 <elliott> otherwise who will make puns after the singularity?
03:37:05 <oerjan> Sgeo: other germanic languages also have splittable infinitives
03:37:25 <elliott> oerjan you haven't yet reacted to my perfect argument for cryoncis
03:37:38 <Sgeo> Is English considered a Germanic language?
03:37:50 <elliott> we're all germans, thanks to wwii
03:37:57 <oerjan> english may be the only one which has a "rule" against doing it though
03:37:59 <elliott> oerjan i get the feeling you don't think much of my argument
03:38:51 <oerjan> elliott: i am not going to sign up for cryonics while i don't have a good feeling about living forever
03:39:05 <elliott> oerjan: then who will make puns after the singularity?
03:39:27 <elliott> also, it's pretty much assumed that suicide will be an option in any post-revival scenario, but whatever :P
03:40:18 <oerjan> elliott: the possibility of a crapsack singularity is not something to be brushed aside
03:40:41 <elliott> oerjan: a crapsack singularity isn't just going to be a naff, boring after-life, it's going to be paperclip-tiling
03:41:04 <elliott> oerjan: a singularity that results in just a "naff" post-singularity environment wouldn't revive cryonics patients
03:41:09 <Sgeo> elliott, it could be a hellish afterlife
03:41:20 <elliott> what has that got to do with cryonics?
03:41:28 <Sgeo> <elliott> oerjan: a crapsack singularity isn't just going to be a naff, boring after-life, it's going to be paperclip-tiling
03:41:38 <elliott> that doesn't answer my question
03:41:47 <elliott> your statement made no sense
03:41:51 <Sgeo> I just decided to use the word you used
03:42:21 <Sgeo> What I meant was, it might not be paperclipfilling. It could be deliberately torturing every single human who ever lived that the AI can access
03:42:26 <elliott> Sgeo: the only way a superintelligence would both keep humans alive *and* revive cryonics patience to experience hell would be if it was deliberately and explicitly programmed to do so
03:42:37 <Sgeo> elliott, or so you think
03:42:39 <elliott> there's no way coherent extrapolated volition etc. could backfire in that way
03:42:43 <elliott> Sgeo: no, or not "so I think"
03:42:55 <elliott> it turns out that you can apply sound logic without having to say "or so I think"
03:43:27 <elliott> the probability is lower than the probability that cryonics is impossible, anyway
03:45:28 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, the (negligible) risk is worth it for pun delivery
03:51:38 <pikhq> DON'T PUNCH THE FURNACE AWAY
03:51:56 <elliott> I'm rewatching and I'm only on part 3.
03:52:53 <Sgeo> I'll have to watch that when I'm not on the verge of tears
03:53:17 <elliott> Sgeo, either tell us what's wrong, or shut up.
03:53:40 <Sgeo> I think I seriously offended a close friend talking about religion
03:53:46 <Sgeo> We usually talk about religion though
03:53:50 <Sgeo> Or, well, often
03:54:09 <elliott> If you said something insensitive, apologise. If they're just being stuck up, don't.
03:54:20 <elliott> If they don't accept your sincere apology, they're a dick.
03:54:36 <pikhq> I also want to let these guys know that spiders are neutral in light...
03:54:56 <elliott> pikhq: They figure it out in the $many main series episodes and $many Survival Island episodes ahead. :p
03:55:01 <elliott> pikhq: (Survival Island is part of the main plotline.)
03:55:06 <oerjan> pikhq: THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK
03:56:12 <elliott> pikhq: Here, have a package installer: $pkg/preinst && tar -C / -xf $pkg/root.tar && $pkg/postinst
03:57:23 <Sgeo> I pretty much asked "We are still friends, right?"
03:57:39 <Sgeo> I don't think what I said was insensitive, so much as.. made me seem like a brick wall to her
03:58:16 <elliott> Sgeo: Friends who won't accept sincere apologies when misunderstandings come up = not real friends.
03:58:29 <Sgeo> I didn't quite apologize
03:59:23 <elliott> Sgeo: What did you say...?
03:59:44 <Sgeo> It wasn't really one thing
04:00:07 <Sgeo> It was the entire discussion. She pretty much said that I hold the things I read online to a different standard than what she holds as true
04:00:57 <elliott> Sgeo: I asked what you said, not what she said.
04:01:08 <elliott> (Even if that's what she said hur hur)
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04:01:39 <Sgeo> I pretty much described how I learn about experiments that occur, hearing about those things, reading about research, etc.
04:01:43 -!- azaq231 has quit (Changing host).
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04:01:59 <Sgeo> Earlier in the day, I was saying that I don't consider the Bible to be good evidence
04:02:06 <elliott> Sgeo: OK. So you said absolutely nothing wrong.
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04:02:11 <elliott> You didn't impose your views upon others.
04:02:16 <elliott> You didn't insult anyone for their views.
04:02:29 <Sgeo> elliott, and I'm not entirely sure if she's "done with" me, or just the discussion
04:02:31 <elliott> And you didn't even say anything even vaguely controversial beyond not being religious.
04:02:33 <pikhq> Not your fault that she has a stick logged firmly in anus.
04:03:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Look -- if she'll stop talking to you for saying those perfectly valid, non-offensive things, then she wasn't your friend in the first place.
04:03:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Even by /American/ standards you have nothing to apologise by; your country isn't quite so bad as to consider "I don't believe the Bible to be factually accurate" as taboo (well, unless you're in the deep south).
04:04:38 <Sgeo> From her perspective, I'm holding what she believes to a different standard from what I believe
04:04:40 <elliott> If it was "I don't like religion and I think it's bad and I don't think anyone should be religious"... that would be a stupid thing to say to someone. But you didn't say that or anything of the sort, and you've said nothing wrong.
04:05:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Her not talking to you for that is just the same as you not talking to someone for being Christian.
04:05:21 <Sgeo> elliott, it has nothing to do with the raw fact that I'm an atheist
04:05:24 <elliott> "I think your beliefs are wrong so we're not friends any more" = asshole.
04:06:01 <pikhq> TAKE YOUR COAL OUT OF THERE YOU'RE BURNING COAL FOR NO REASON
04:06:02 <Sgeo> I think it would be more comparible to, after a debate, me not being friends with someone because they completely ignored my argument about something
04:06:18 <pikhq> Oh, okay, they're done wasting it. Good.
04:06:27 <elliott> Sgeo: That's just as stupid...
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04:06:48 <coppro> Sgeo: #1 mistake in religious debates is to take the other side as absolutely wrong
04:06:58 <coppro> 99% of the time, neither side can convince the other
04:07:08 <quintopia> #2 mistake in religious debates is having one
04:07:23 <coppro> it is entirely possible to have a cordial religious debate
04:07:31 <elliott> Sgeo: Well, anyway, regardless of whether you should apologise or not (I think definitely not), there are two possibilities: either she'll keep talking to you, or not. In the latter case, you have two options: Accept it, or apologise. If you apologise and she accepts it, you've reduced it to the first situation. If you apologise and she doesn't accept it, you don't want to be friends with her anyway.
04:07:37 <coppro> but both parties are involved for the sake of the debate
04:07:43 <coppro> and not for the sake of convincing the other side
04:07:45 <elliott> Have I expanded the decision tree enough do you think?
04:07:54 <quintopia> coppro: then let me add "with strangers on the internet"
04:08:02 <coppro> quintopia: ok, that's usually a mistake
04:08:08 <coppro> but that's not what we're talking about with Sge
04:08:16 <elliott> Sgeo is obvs not talking about stranger on internet
04:08:19 <coppro> Sgeo: apologize profusely
04:08:28 <coppro> make it clear you respect her beliefs
04:08:40 <coppro> (if this would be a lie, learn why that's dumb, learn to respect her beliefs, then tell her)
04:08:51 <elliott> Sgeo: anyway there is no reason to cry over that, either it's easily resolvable, or she's not a good friend anyway.
04:08:55 <coppro> and attempt to maneuver to an agreement to disagree
04:09:09 <Sgeo> I'm hoping the reason she's not responding to me right now is either that she's busy, or maybe she'll just talk tomorrow or something
04:09:12 <Sgeo> She hasn't blocked me
04:09:26 <Sgeo> Maybe I just need to eat
04:09:36 <elliott> That is indeed a requirement of human life.
04:22:55 <elliott> pikhq: What part are you on now, 20? :P
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04:26:02 <elliott> Ah, edging towards THINGS HAPPENING.
04:26:05 <pikhq> Where it becomes clearly at least forward-planned.
04:27:23 <Sgeo> It occurs to me where I saw an interesting discussion she might just have wanted to learn about what I think
04:29:21 <elliott> pikhq: You know what's awesome? dmenu.
04:29:44 <Sgeo> elliott, that looks like a lojban word
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04:31:14 <elliott> pikhq: The KITTEN DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT's start menu: dmenu loaded with all the programs on the path, plus the history patch (ordered by most frequent use).
04:34:01 <pikhq> GOD DAMMIT YOUTUBE
04:34:12 <pikhq> THE BUFFER IS MUCH LARGER THAN WHAT I'VE SEEN SO FAR.
04:34:19 <pikhq> STOP REQUIRING LARGER BUFFERS.
04:36:30 <elliott> pikhq: Use an HTML5 YouTube player extension like I do. :p
04:42:37 <elliott> pikhq: Question. What's a decent terminal _that handles multibyte_?
04:42:44 <elliott> That isn't tied to a desktop environment.
04:44:09 <elliott> pikhq: That's a "none", then.
04:44:18 <elliott> I wonder if st's multibyte support has improved?
04:44:22 <elliott> I assign you to go and check.
04:44:39 <elliott> pikhq: 2 months agoAurélien Aptel utf8 support! print text in delicious unicode greatness! all hail to the glorious Damian Okrasa for the patch!changeset | files
04:45:00 <elliott> pikhq: You should try it again!
04:45:03 <elliott> http://hg.suckless.org/st/archive/tip.tar.gz
04:46:10 <elliott> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT APPRECIATION OF MY RESEARCH
04:47:44 <pikhq> You should be able to smelt mossy cobblestone into mossy smooth stone.
04:47:53 <pikhq> Or make mossy tools.
04:49:00 <elliott> pikhq: EXCUSE ME ST DOES UNICODE NOW
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04:55:34 <zzo38> Today I received a game in the mail.
04:55:39 -!- elliott has set topic: anything is possible house http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:55:46 <elliott> you removed my formatted logs
04:55:55 <quintopia> does urxvt not handle multi-byte then?
04:56:02 -!- zzo38 has set topic: anything is possible house | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:56:03 -!- elliott has set topic: anything is possible house | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:56:27 <zzo38> elliott: No, it is not a hat game. It is a cross between a card game and a fighting game.
04:56:30 <pikhq> Okay, well, it does...
04:56:34 <pikhq> That being the whole point.
04:56:35 <elliott> pikhq: have you tested st yet
04:56:41 <elliott> http://hg.suckless.org/st/archive/tip.tar.gz
04:57:21 <zzo38> No. Not like that.
04:57:58 <zzo38> The game has ten decks, with fifty-six cards each, although two of them are removed from the deck before play begins.
04:57:59 -!- quintopia has set topic: anything is possible rhar | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:59:59 <zzo38> There are no rares and no random packs. The cards that are not removed consist of Ace to King in each of four suits, and two jokers; but each card also hasa picture and two special effects depending on which direction you play the cards.
05:01:16 <Sgeo> I wonder how much of this teariness is just caused by me being hungry
05:01:23 <Sgeo> All I ate today was a 440 calorie danish
05:02:03 <elliott> in which Sgeo discovers that eating is not optional
05:03:10 <elliott> there was an anorexic at the unit. it was uh, interesting
05:03:27 <elliott> the unit's advanced psychiatric treatment consisted of telling her to eat until she ate
05:03:41 <elliott> it...was...not terribly effective
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05:04:05 <elliott> she was on a feeding tube pretty often
05:04:17 <quintopia> treatment for anorexia doesn't even suck that bad in america
05:04:22 <Sgeo> My parents threatened me with a feeding tube once
05:04:50 <elliott> Sgeo: yes but we've established on many occasions that you're parents are incompetent psychos who shouldn't be allowed to breed
05:04:56 <elliott> well ok, so that line just established it far more
05:05:10 <elliott> Sgeo: move the fuck out already
05:05:24 <Sgeo> elliott, when I said parents, I wasn't referring to my step-mom
05:05:33 <elliott> Sgeo: i am aware of that fact
05:07:08 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: do you have any more more music similar to superturing?
05:07:19 <Sgeo> Considering that I want to try F# at some point, should I cancel the VS2008 install and install VS2010?
05:07:23 <elliott> That is such an insult to Gregor.
05:07:32 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Opus 13 is like SuperTuring, perhaps even more cheesy though!
05:07:45 <Gregor> Mathnerd314: http://codu.org/music/vg/ is the only other electronic music I've made.
05:07:56 <quintopia> elliott: you're good at this insulting gregor thing
05:08:08 <elliott> tbh though i think all of Gregor's music is like
05:08:20 <elliott> it's hilarious, he pretends to have talent so well
05:08:27 <quintopia> i hear that gregor couldn't figure out how to use a non-piano instrument...not even a player piano.
05:08:36 <elliott> lol he can't play the piano
05:08:50 <Mathnerd314> elliott: am I missing something, or is this just general insanity?
05:08:55 <Gregor> I just poke keys and go "zomg sounds it's SATAN D-8"
05:10:56 <copumpkin> woot, I'm up to 65 karma on mathoverflow
05:11:14 <copumpkin> one mathoverflow point = 1000 stackoverflow points
05:11:36 <elliott> now sleeeeeepsuckitudylesseryiminy
05:11:51 <elliott> iy960rpe;d.cv,mbhjy69504[ws'c.v,gkyi69043[
05:12:04 <Mathnerd314> copumpkin: and 1000 stackoverflow points = $0 ?
05:13:11 <copumpkin> pff, who needs money when you have karma
05:13:39 <copumpkin> with all my newfound stackoverflow credibility, I can tell lowly programmers that the solution to their programming problem is to clean my house and drive me around
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05:29:42 <zzo38> Gregor: Maybe you should write more music, write John Stump style music. Probably GNU Lilypond can do that.
05:30:02 <Gregor> GNU Lilypond can't write music :P
05:30:20 <zzo38> You can use GNU Lilypond for writing music.
05:30:45 <Gregor> You can use GNU Lilypond for /notating/ music.
05:30:57 <zzo38> Your files are in GNU Lilypond, that's what I saw, I think.
05:31:21 <Gregor> Yes, that's what I use for notation. Notating music != writing music.
05:32:01 <zzo38> Then make a John Stump style music and notate it with GNU Lilypond.
05:32:45 <zzo38> I read that DVI files created with Lilypond will not contain note heads. Is that right? If so, that is a serious problem.
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05:36:42 <Gregor> I have no idea, I've only ever created PDF files with it.
05:56:45 <zzo38> Why does netcat need a CRLF option, you can just type: unix2dos | nc
05:57:20 <quintopia> so you don't have to have that program
05:57:23 <zzo38> If I make my own, it will certainly be different, it will have different options.
06:01:01 <zzo38> Is it possible to send a print job to a PCL network printer (with an IP address) by using a command such as: dvilj | nc
06:03:19 <coppro> theory: the zero wing introduction probably has the highest density of a single source introducing new phrases to english in the last century
06:03:46 <zzo38> Did you that Android includes constants for the gravity for all of the planets in this solar system?
06:05:55 <zzo38> coppro: I don't know.
06:06:29 <Sgeo> zzo38, do you know why I don't like food?
06:07:12 <zzo38> Sgeo: Is it because that food is no good to eat?
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06:27:36 <quintopia> beer is liquid bread it's good for you
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06:36:04 <pikhq> coppro: I had a friend who thought that food sucked.
06:36:22 <pikhq> As it turns out, his mother was just an incredibly awful cook.
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06:40:55 <pikhq> So, Sony released a new PS3 update.
06:41:27 <pikhq> They changed a number of keys.
06:41:32 <pikhq> All of them symmetric.
06:41:56 <pikhq> The new update has *already* been unpacked and the new keys extracted.
06:43:34 <pikhq> Seriously, it took an hour.
06:48:15 <pikhq> In short, Sony seems to have completely misunderstood the whole entire hack.
07:02:39 <quintopia> ohey. google is 100% and inarguably evil now. sure they pushed the boundaries a few times before, but they have finally totally fallen to the dark side.
07:02:59 <quintopia> http://torrentfreak.com/google-starts-censoring-bittorrent-rapidshare-and-more-110126/
07:04:35 <pikhq> That's pretty evil.
07:24:21 <myndzi> The search engine now actively censors terms including BitTorrent, torrent, utorrent, RapidShare and Megaupload from its instant and autocomplete services.
07:24:33 <myndzi> lots of stuff gets struck off those lists, for good reason
07:25:02 <myndzi> it probably opens them up to legal action to be actively suggesting results for searches that relate to piracy
07:25:15 <myndzi> for example: type artist name, get suggestions for download links
07:25:31 <myndzi> everybody likes to forget that all you have to do is hit enter
07:28:42 <myndzi> i think google gets too much shit about their don't be evil line. what it means is that they should try to do right in all cases, but what people hold them to is "don't make me angry"
07:38:58 <quintopia> fuck that man. they crossed the line. when you start suggesting A but not suggesting B because C asked you to, you are failing to be what a search engine is supposed to be.
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09:06:22 <zzo38> I made JavaScript preprocessor.
09:07:54 <fizzie> I've used cpp on some javascript earlier, but I've completely forgotten the reason.
09:10:49 <zzo38> I would not expect the C preprocessor to work properly on JavaScript, especially if your program contains regular expressions!!
09:17:36 <zzo38> My program works also with regular expressions, but it has other features, too.
09:18:36 <quintopia> we don't need preprocessing for js. we have eval :P
09:18:38 <zzo38> Instead of (function(x,y){return x+y;}) or function(x,y)(x+y) you can type @(x,y;x+y)
09:18:59 <zzo38> There is also \def and \enum command.
09:20:22 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tex-js/jspp.js
09:22:00 <quintopia> what kind of input does http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tex-js/tex-js.htm take?
09:22:23 <zzo38> (At least, not yet.)
09:22:33 <zzo38> (But that file is not part of JSPP anyways)
09:23:13 <zzo38> I will try to implement TeX.
09:23:33 <zzo38> I might later also implement TeX in C (with Enhanced CWEB) as well.
09:23:52 <zzo38> But I don't know for sure.
09:25:08 <zzo38> You can also make suggestions of JSPP, if you want to.
09:26:07 <zzo38> Note the regular expression /./ does not match line breaks, but /[^]/ matches any character.
09:28:59 <fizzie> Funny that JavaScript regexps do the /.../i case-insensitive and the /.../m multiline modifiers, but not the /.../s "dot matches newlines" one.
09:30:12 <zzo38> Yes, I don't know why they didn't put that in. But at least you can still use [^] if you want newlines matched as well. Maybe I could add a feature in JSPP supporting /.../s modifier.
09:31:08 <quintopia> it'd just be a matter of replacing all . with [^] yes?
09:31:22 <zzo38> Yes, just look if the "s" modifier is set, replace all . with [^] unless preceded by \ or inside of a [...] group
09:31:57 <zzo38> Except for things like /\\./s where the . is not considered preceded by \ because the \\ is one token by itself, and . is the next one.
09:33:05 <zzo38> These aren't really special cases, just use a proper regular expression that matches them properly.
09:34:11 <zzo38> (Actually MDC says to use [\s\S
09:34:20 <zzo38> (Actually MDC says to use [\s\S] but [^] works too)
09:34:46 <quintopia> still, you can't just replace . with [^]. it'll be a tricky regex
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09:35:28 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, you are right about that. It will be a bit tricky, but it is doable.
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09:52:43 <zzo38> OK, I added that feature now.
09:55:37 <Ilari> Current RIR depletion estimates: APNIC at October 2011, RIPE at Sepember 2012, ARIN at November 2012, AFRINIC in June 2015 and LACNIC in Novameber 2016. Of course, run-on-the-bank could move those much earlier, and the AFRINIC and LACNIC probably don't deplete.
09:58:30 <Ilari> Oven deLong predicts that IPv6 will last 30-50 years. After that, migration to new protocol for yet unknown reasons (not exhaustion of address space).
10:00:37 <zzo38> Maybe the reason is quantum computer.
10:02:27 <fizzie> zzo38: Your Rnumber regex doesn't seem to match numbers of the form ".5" or "1e9" or "1.5E3".
10:02:49 <zzo38> fizzie: Oops, sorry. Now I will fix that.
10:03:16 <Ilari> His estimate of the total address space given to RIRs is 15 blocks...
10:03:37 <fizzie> Or I guess "+5" or "-7" either.
10:04:03 <zzo38> I don't need to match "+5" or "-7" because those are just treated as an operator followed by a number.
10:04:29 <Ilari> Even with the present system, there are 512 of those total.
10:05:06 <fizzie> Syntactically speaking the sign is part of a number in JavaScript, but I guess it works for preprocessing.
10:05:45 <fizzie> But you need to match it in the exponent, because 1e+9 and 1E-3 are legal.
10:11:53 <zzo38> I have now corrected that problem.
10:12:52 <zzo38> fizzie: Did you find any other mistakes in this program?
10:14:30 <fizzie> Well. Technically speaking for identifiers you would need to match all Unicode letters (categories Lu, Ll, Lt, Lm, Lo and Nl) and digits (Nd), as well as combining marks and connector punctuation (Mn, Mc, Pc); and also allow Unicode escape sequences ("\uXXXX", where Xs are hex digits) in the identifiers, but only when the escape sequence denotes and otherwise legal character.
10:14:35 <fizzie> But that would be pretty ugly.
10:16:17 <zzo38> So I will not allow Unicode identifiers in JSPP.
10:17:19 <fizzie> Also for strings you perhaps should use that "\\[^]" in place of "\\.", because a multi-line string with an escaped embedded newline like "foo\
10:21:12 <zzo38> I would like to know if there are any additional features you think is needed?
10:31:16 <fizzie> Can't think of any right now. I'm not sure where you match the + in something like "2 + 2", though; it doesn't seem to be Roperator, which is what I'd have guessed from the name.
10:32:19 <fizzie> Is it just a generic fall-through sort of thing?
10:37:57 <zzo38> The + is matched there.
10:38:34 <zzo38> So are other operators. It just uses ranges since the ASCII numbers for the operators are close together.
10:39:28 <fizzie> Ah, (-\/ -- it's not exactly very clear, but sure.
10:40:22 <zzo38> OK I added a comment there now.
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11:06:45 <Ilari> "Here we are discussing the exhaustion date and most of the world doesn’t know ipv6 exists :p"...
11:08:08 <cheater00> fizzie: what about composition of letters by say umlauts?
11:16:10 <fizzie> cheater00: What about it? It is legal in identifiers (the combining diaeresis has the Mn "non-spacing mark" category), though the identifier ä (single char) is not equal to ä (a + diaeresis). (The spec says the source is supposed to be converted to normal form C beforehand.)
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12:44:08 <Ilari> Haha... This must be the most misinformed article about IPv4 exhaustion I have seen in a while: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/26/internet-run-ip-addresses-happens-anyones-guess/ (but hey, it is Fox News).
12:45:14 <Ilari> Containing gems like "a system that recognizes six-digit IP addresses rather than four-digit ones." (err...). Oh, and it is 'Huston', not 'Hutson'.
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12:47:38 <fizzie> Well, you know, it's "v4" and "v6" and the addresses are longer, so...
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12:50:42 <fizzie> The end of the article links to http://www.news.com.au/technology/the-internet-has-run-out-of-ip-addresses-and-what-happens-after-that-is-anyones-guess/story-e6frfro0-1225995086627 which has pretty much identical text except "Web developers have compensated for it by creating IPv6 - a system which recognises 128-bit addresses as opposed to IPv4's 32-bit addresses."
12:51:03 <fizzie> Apparently that somehow got turned into "four-digit" and "six-digit".
12:53:14 <Ilari> And also that news.com.au article has that name spelled correctly...
12:55:00 <Ilari> That "at best it is slow" thing is present in both...
12:55:58 <fizzie> Yes, I think there the train of thought has gone "well the incompatible protocols are a bit like a square peg and a round hole, and you can sort of fit them together if you just hammer really much, but it's not going to go in smoothly".
12:57:28 <Ilari> Well, IPv6 is bit slower: In fast ethernet link (100Mbps), one can transfer data over IPv6 at 11.6MB/s. IPv4 is bit faster at about 11.8MB/s.
12:59:42 <fizzie> Yes, but the point was that it's "clunky and slow" when you're accessing the IPv4 sites with it. Though maybe it's referring to some sort of a clunky translation mechanism.
13:01:13 <Ilari> Transferring 700MB (one CD full) of data, that would correspond to about 1s difference (out of about 60s transfer time)...
13:01:58 <Ilari> Holds irrespective of speed, so IPv6 slows down data downloads by about 1s per minute...
13:03:33 <Ilari> Also, translation mechanism? Yes, there is NAT64, but nobody in their right mind is going to use it...
13:05:28 <fizzie> I meant something like that SIIT thing.
13:05:46 <fizzie> And those aren't the only ones.
13:07:10 <fizzie> Really, it's a bit hard to say what they meant there, if anything.
13:08:11 <Ilari> I guess that "IPv6 connection timeouts and the client falls back to IPv4" issue.
13:12:58 <fizzie> This is a longer (and possibly a bit less vague) article about his talk: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/crunch-time-for-upgrade-of-internet-addresses-that-are-running-out-20101116-17v26.html
13:15:48 <fizzie> "Anyone purchasing new hardware or software that has any sort of internet connection should ask if it is v6-capable, because most modems and routers on the market are not and those devices that are can be costly.
13:15:48 <fizzie> The same philosophy applies to new computers, though by now, they should all be running v6-compatible operating systems."
13:17:15 <Ilari> Is there an OS that is neither IPv6 capable nor end-of-lifed?
13:17:42 <fizzie> I would think most of the consumer things that do internets (or at least complicated internets, like routers) actually run on operating systems that are v6-capable (embedded Linux seems to be pretty popular) in theory, so logically speaking it'd just be a matter of a firmware upgrade.
13:17:43 <fizzie> (Discounting the fact that the device manufacturers are probably more interested in selling new boxes instead of for-free upgrading old.)
13:18:25 <Ilari> I mean computer OS...
13:19:57 <fizzie> Not anything popular, at least.
13:20:22 <fizzie> http://isoc.org/wp/newsletter/?p=2902 "for the first global-scale trial of the new Internet Protocol, IPv6" well that's also quite curiously said.
13:22:58 <Ilari> Worst case, world IPv6 day will be after APNIC depletes... Ouch.
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13:27:04 <fizzie> Sadly the Great IPv6 Porn Experiment (which was going to start "real soon now" for years) never happened; the domains now redirect to some "regular" porn site.
13:28:08 <fizzie> While trying to re-find the experiment by googling I did come across two other IPv6-only porn sites, but from the looks of it, not even the lure of porn seems to be enough for widespread (no pun intended) IPv6 adoption.
13:29:41 <fizzie> (Also one of the sites doesn't even have an AAAA record, so I'm a bit suspicious. There's no IPv6 connectivity here at work, unfortunately.)
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15:57:59 <elliott> "Is it just me or did Oracle just break every schemaLocation in the Java universe?"
15:58:18 <ais523> elliott: technically speaking those URIs are just names, they don't have to correspond to anything
15:58:21 <ais523> but in practice everyone ignores that
15:58:34 <elliott> ais523: the W3C took down the DTDs for HTML a while ago, IIRC
15:58:41 <elliott> because it was killing their servers
15:58:54 <elliott> (not altogether, just from the "standard" location)
15:58:55 <ais523> elliott: really? I thought they put something like a 10-second delay on serving them
15:59:06 <ais523> so you could still access them if you wanted to
15:59:15 <ais523> but the idiots downloading them in a loop without caching had their programs break
16:00:16 <elliott> oh wow, quality zzo38 in the logs today
16:01:16 <elliott> nddrylliog: wow, i was just thinking that you didn't come back after the first time you were here a short while ago
16:01:35 <ais523> I wasn't here the first time, I imagine
16:01:38 <ais523> as I've never met nddrylliog before
16:01:53 <elliott> ais523: nddrylliog is the INVENTOR OF http://ooc-lang.org/
16:02:04 <elliott> *INVENTOR OF the language but not the site about it which is at
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16:02:31 <ais523> hmm, why is that site trying to set a cookie?
16:02:37 <elliott> because it's an awful site >_>
16:02:58 <ais523> and why does it have a sidebar which is mostly blank space, apart from a position:static link to Twitter?
16:03:09 <elliott> because it's an awful site >_>
16:03:11 <elliott> This app would like to be able to do the following:
16:03:11 <elliott> Read your public information.
16:03:14 <elliott> Update your public repository info.
16:03:17 <elliott> why on earth does it let me log in with github :D
16:03:35 <elliott> don't blame nddrylliog anyway he didn't make it, as I've taken it upon myself to painstakingly point out for him
16:03:47 <ais523> also, the type of reduce there looks dubious
16:04:06 <ais523> (Func (T, T) -> T) -> T?
16:04:09 <elliott> err, yes, wtf is with that reduce type, nddrylliog?
16:04:30 <nddrylliog> elliott: also, next time please just tell people I eat shorts, it'll be easier to justify
16:04:39 <nddrylliog> oh, don't ask. I was young. I've drank a lot to forget all about it.
16:04:40 <elliott> it seems to create an iterator for nothing at the start :D
16:04:40 <ais523> the implementation itself looks suitably eso, too
16:05:16 <ais523> aha, is the list argument there implied?
16:05:24 <elliott> i hope not, that sounds terrifying
16:05:36 <ais523> that function/method almost makes perfect sense if you assume there's a list argument there that isn't mentioned anywhere
16:05:45 <ais523> nddrylliog: oh, that's meant to go in a List class?
16:05:51 <ais523> that does make sense now
16:06:00 <elliott> but anyway folds are (Func (A, B) -> B) -> B or (Func (A, B) -> A) -> A
16:06:06 <nddrylliog> I guess I'll have to ask my webmaster to make the "Object-oriented" words bigger
16:06:06 <elliott> so that type is NEEDLESSLY RESTRICTIVE!
16:06:16 <nddrylliog> elliott: yes. Also it needlessly compiles :)
16:06:21 <ais523> no, I noticed it was object-oriented
16:06:23 <elliott> well usually you don't see a method on the List class right after a main function declaration
16:06:25 <nddrylliog> elliott: whereas the less restrictive version.. well who knows
16:06:32 <ais523> just that it was taken out of context
16:06:51 <elliott> let's stop talking about ooc!
16:06:59 <ais523> elliott: hmm... is reduce/fold normally implemented taking the element at one end of the list as a starting point, or asking for a zero as a starting point?
16:07:17 <elliott> ais523: the latter in Haskell, the former in Python
16:07:31 <ais523> yep, I realised that langs were generally inconsistent about it
16:07:35 <ais523> and were wondering which was more common
16:07:44 <elliott> nddrylliog: if it's any consolation it doesn't seem that bad a language really :P
16:07:50 <ais523> (also, which is more useful; the two can trivially be converted between each other if you have cons/car/cdr)
16:07:57 <elliott> ais523: SRFI-1 takes a zero... the best way is to take a zero
16:08:11 <elliott> ais523: implementing the zero-taking right fold
16:08:15 <elliott> with the end-of-list right fold
16:08:21 <elliott> ais523: can be inefficient in a strict language
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16:08:26 <elliott> since you have to do "lst ++ [zero]"
16:08:31 <ais523> ah yes, because it basically involves reversing a list
16:08:31 <elliott> ofc in a lazy language it's the same
16:08:46 <elliott> it just involves appending an item
16:08:51 <elliott> which iterates through the list
16:08:54 <ais523> elliott: that is basically reversing a list
16:09:00 <elliott> well...same complexity, but?
16:09:02 <ais523> because you can only append items to the start of a list
16:09:13 <ais523> hmm, it makes sense in my head, anyway
16:09:24 <elliott> ais523: yes, but then so does Feather almost
16:09:25 <ais523> lazy ++ is great btw, derlo does that even though Underload is a strict language
16:09:38 <ais523> because it turns out that * being lazy is impossible to detect from inside the language
16:09:57 <ais523> why would you make ! lazy?
16:10:12 <ais523> admittedly, it hardly makes a difference, as it's going to be forced with the next command if it's anything but ()
16:10:20 <ais523> and if it /is/ (), then lazifying the ! just wastes memory
16:11:13 <elliott> ais523: EVERYTHING SHOULD BE LAZY
16:11:35 <ais523> elliott: well, if you implemented, say, an Underload -> Haskell compiler, it probably would be
16:11:38 <elliott> so ais523 when you gonna delete ClearBF :p
16:11:50 <ais523> let's give it a couple more days, and wait for a few more responses
16:11:54 <ais523> I don't see how it's hurting anything
16:12:03 <elliott> it's hurting ... uh ... um
16:12:10 <ais523> in fact, I've half a mind to just pick a title, and write '''title goes here''' is an esolang that does not exist.
16:12:27 <ais523> and put it in [[Category: Languages]][[Category:2011]][[Category:Unimplemented]] and see if anyone does anything about it
16:12:52 <ais523> hmm, should be marked {{stub}} too
16:12:55 <elliott> 10:25:59 <fizzie> Well. Technically speaking for identifiers you would need to match all Unicode letters (categories Lu, Ll, Lt, Lm, Lo and Nl) and digits (Nd), as well as combining marks and connector punctuation (Mn, Mc, Pc); and also allow Unicode escape sequences ("\uXXXX", where Xs are hex digits) in the identifiers, but only when the escape sequence denotes and otherwise legal character.
16:12:56 <elliott> 10:26:03 <fizzie> But that would be pretty ugly.
16:13:03 <oerjan> <elliott> so that type is NEEDLESSLY RESTRICTIVE! <-- um no, note there is no initial value
16:13:11 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> a) -> [a] -> a
16:13:17 <elliott> oerjan: oh right... i thought we were not discussing it any more
16:13:22 <elliott> ais523: btw that proves that the zero-taking version is more powerful i think
16:13:26 <elliott> because the zero can have a different type
16:13:31 <elliott> (only in strongly-typed languages)
16:13:51 <elliott> ais523: although you could apply the folding function once on the last element and the zero, say
16:13:57 <elliott> and then handle the rest with the fold1
16:14:02 <elliott> but by that point you might as well just recurse
16:14:24 <ais523> elliott: oh, I didn't assume we had /recursion/
16:14:50 <ais523> (perhaps because SCI has fold but not recursion, and I've been working with it quite a lot)
16:15:13 <elliott> ais523: foldr f z xs = foldr1 f (allButLast xs ++ [f (last xs) z])
16:15:24 <oerjan> <ais523> (also, which is more useful; the two can trivially be converted between each other if you have cons/car/cdr) <-- not with strong static typing involved
16:16:21 <oerjan> <ais523> because you can only append items to the start of a list <-- *prepend
16:16:53 <ais523> oerjan: that's a sort of appending!
16:18:54 <oerjan> <ais523> in fact, I've half a mind to just pick a title, and write '''title goes here''' is an esolang that does not exist. <-- see also [[Schrodilang]]
16:19:07 <ais523> oerjan: but that one might
16:20:49 <elliott> <oerjan> <ais523> (also, which is more useful; the two can trivially be converted between each other if you have cons/car/cdr) <-- not with strong static typing involved
16:20:53 <elliott> that's what I /just told you/....
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16:21:27 <ais523> oh, the zero can have a different type
16:21:37 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: hmm? <-- see the difference in type between foldl and foldl1, the former cannot be written in terms of the latter without using something like an Either value
16:21:53 <ais523> and that is ofc useful, such as reducing a list of integers into a string
16:22:28 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: foldr f z xs = foldr1 f (allButLast xs ++ [f (last xs) z])
16:22:28 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: oh right... i thought we were not discussing it any more <-- beware the power of the annoyingly backscrolled! *MWAHAHAHA*
16:24:49 <oerjan> elliott: nope, the type of that is wrong i believe
16:25:09 <oerjan> :t let foldr f z xs = foldr1 f (allButLast xs ++ [f(last xs) z]) in foldr
16:25:09 <lambdabot> Data.List drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a]
16:25:16 <elliott> oerjan: there's no allButLast
16:25:27 <oerjan> :t let foldr f z xs = foldr1 f (init xs ++ [f(last xs) z]) in foldr
16:25:27 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a -> a) -> a -> [a] -> a
16:31:59 <oerjan> oh hm there's another way
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16:33:43 <elliott> so ais523, is kitten the best, or the best?
16:34:08 <oerjan> :t let foldr f z xs = (foldr1 (.) $ id : map f xs) z in foldr
16:34:09 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (a -> a1 -> a1) -> a1 -> [a] -> a1
16:34:14 <ais523> elliott: with those as the choices, do you even need to ask me?
16:34:58 <ais523> elliott: this is some strange meaning of the word "which" that I'm not familiar with
16:35:11 <elliott> choose from the set {best, best}
16:35:36 <ais523> elliott: that isn't a set
16:35:49 <ais523> or, if it is, has only one element
16:36:00 <elliott> sure, so pick which of its one elements Kitten is
16:36:03 <ais523> and a choice of one element is rather tautologous
16:36:45 <ais523> oerjan: heh, you beat me to reverting that last spambot
16:36:58 <ais523> probably because my all-edits-to-esolang feed isn't realtime
16:37:02 <ais523> so I only notice a few minutes later
16:37:18 <oerjan> it was just because i was looking up schrodilang
16:38:08 <elliott> we should have a bot in there that notifies of every edit to esolang (that you can temp-turn-off with a command for spam floods)
16:38:14 <elliott> the wiki is pretty darn low-traffic, after all
16:38:38 <ais523> if there's a flood, it should be dealt with via deleting the edits in question from recent changes
16:38:49 <ais523> which I've been doing to spambots recently in order to help keep it uncluttered
16:39:15 <elliott> ais523: yes, but while no admins are online, etc.
16:39:17 <elliott> it would flood the channel
16:39:22 <elliott> so it just needs a shutup command
16:39:26 <ais523> you could ratelimit it instead
16:39:40 <elliott> nah, the only time it'd ever flood is when there's a spambot attack
16:39:46 <ais523> like Rodney in #nethackwiki, which goes ...and 6 more changes or whatever
16:39:58 <ais523> ratelimits would just automatically detect spambots, effectively
16:40:10 <elliott> that's way too much work :)
16:40:16 <Sgeo> elliott, "Civil Defense" is shaping up to be awesome
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16:47:01 <j-invariant> If pi is the RATIO of a circle's circumference to its diameter, why is pi irrational? (self.math)
16:47:05 <oerjan> elliott: come to think of it, my last implementation of foldr above is essentially the default definition for the Data.Foldable.foldr method
16:47:16 <elliott> j-invariant: because it just doesn't make sense!
16:47:20 <ais523> j-invariant: because one or the other must be not an integer
16:47:45 <j-invariant> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/f9ije/if_pi_is_the_ratio_of_a_circles_circumference_to/
16:47:57 <elliott> ais523: um you do realise it was a quote
16:48:10 <ais523> elliott: indeed, I can answer a question in a quote can't I?
16:48:25 <ais523> and the nickping was just to identify which thread of conversation my reply was in
16:48:32 <elliott> ais523: well, it's a stupid question :P
16:48:34 <elliott> hmm, I wonder why dwm installs to /usr/local by default
16:48:45 <ais523> elliott: giving stupid questions sensible answers is part of a day job for a teacher
16:48:54 <ais523> elliott: don't all programs install to /usr/local by default, more or less?
16:49:00 <ais523> (if they don't install to Program Files?)
16:49:13 <elliott> ais523: yes, but with dwm all configuration is by editing the configuration header
16:49:18 <elliott> ais523: and often you use patches
16:49:24 <elliott> so nobody has the same dwm binary, essentially
16:49:32 <elliott> and, as such, putting it in /usr/local is ridiculous
16:49:41 <elliott> as it's plainly a per-user binary
16:50:08 <ais523> well, it's a case of forgetting to change usually sane defaults when they happen to be insane in your particular project
16:50:49 <elliott> actually dwm causes me a bit of a headache for Kitten, as I want to include it by default, but a binary package will be useless for almost everyone, as it would be uncustomisable
16:51:56 <ais523> simple, modify it to be a quine
16:53:06 <elliott> j-invariant: best reply from that thread: "Pi has been struggling with alcohol and drug issues for many years now. A lot of his behavior makes more sense when it is seen through this lens."
16:53:18 <Vorpal> elliott, patch it to add a config file
16:53:28 <ais523> hmm, I was reading through recent xkcds, and one mentioned the Wikipedia article "List of common misconceptions"
16:53:34 <Vorpal> elliott, preferably xml based for extra insanity
16:53:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not going to destroy the whole ethos of the programs I include by default...
16:53:39 <elliott> besides, most dwm users use patches
16:53:46 <elliott> do you want me to have a program that automatically applies patches on dwm startup? :)
16:53:49 <ais523> I find it hilarious that they're not just sourced to show that the misconception is wrong, but many are also sourced to prove that the misconception is indeed commonly believed
16:54:08 <elliott> ais523: reading through recent xkcd? my condolences
16:54:12 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I guess dwm depends on libxlst nowdays due to xcb
16:54:12 <ais523> elliott: dwm should be able to be given a patch as argument and recompile itself
16:54:15 <ais523> elliott: some of them aren't bad
16:54:22 <ais523> today's made me laugh, for instance
16:54:25 <elliott> Vorpal: clearly it should be rewritten to use raw x11 protocol
16:54:31 <ais523> I agree that the average quality is quite poor, though
16:54:35 <elliott> ais523: it's picked up _very_ slightly as of late
16:55:09 <elliott> ais523: but 600-8xx were pretty much the worst ever
16:56:02 <oerjan> there was no xkcd today. or was there?
16:56:11 <Vorpal> or yesterday or whatever
16:56:14 <elliott> latest xkcd would be best without the last panel
16:56:20 <Vorpal> I don't read it on daily basis
16:56:26 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit slow to get to the joke too
16:56:32 <elliott> Vorpal: that's part of the humour
16:56:37 <elliott> but the last one is just a "now that the joke is over, I'm going to kill it by explaining it!" panel
16:56:40 <elliott> which randall can never seem to avoid
16:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, also given it is him I assume he did the math for this. And that's quite interesting then.
16:57:29 <elliott> http://xkcd.com/851/ <-- is the omission of hey jude intentional, I wonder
16:57:50 <elliott> "I can't believe I forgot Hey Jude.
16:57:50 <elliott> I don't get do-overs, but I couldn't resist making this fixed version."
17:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, uh is that comic about generic song texts or the problem with remembering song texts. (It does remind me of how people sing the national anthem generally)
17:00:28 <elliott> it's not about anything, it's not even a joke
17:01:39 <ais523> it's just a guide to songs that start with lots of "na"
17:01:46 <elliott> just have them in the hook
17:01:57 <elliott> ais523: wtf, the esolangs wiki doesn't have the API enabled
17:02:03 <ais523> elliott: it's off by default
17:02:11 <ais523> and there are security issues in it on occasion, perhaps that's why
17:02:29 <elliott> why didn't graue turn it on... OH RIGHT BECAUSE HE HATES US
17:03:01 <Vorpal> http://xkcd.com/850/ <-- ...
17:03:21 <elliott> that one's amusing in theory
17:03:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, it is slightly amusing yet not at the same time
17:03:45 <Vorpal> which is a very strange thing to say
17:04:00 <ais523> partly, it's amusing because it's more accurate than you'd expect
17:04:05 <ais523> although far from completely accurate
17:04:13 <elliott> ais523: erm that's the whole joke
17:04:15 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed. the sizes of many things are off
17:04:35 <elliott> wait, since when does dwm have a bottom bar
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18:19:21 <Sgeo> People hate "Meridian"?
18:19:30 <Sgeo> If that's the _worst_ of the season...
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19:09:17 <elliott> hmm, you should be able to add tags to dwm at runtime
19:22:41 <ais523> asking him not to do what, exactly?
19:22:48 <ais523> publish stuff that's already been mirrored all over the web?
19:22:52 <ais523> that's unlikely to do a lot
19:23:16 <copumpkin> they get to confiscate everything tech-related he owns
19:23:28 <ais523> that isn't a restraining order at all
19:24:35 <copumpkin> it's an additional requirement on the restraining order
19:24:39 <copumpkin> which tells him not to do anything bad
19:25:03 <ais523> ah well, I'll look at the story on Slashdot the day after tomorrow
19:25:09 <ais523> or maybe even tomorrow if they're unusually fast
19:28:30 <quintopia> does he have enough time to wipe all the incriminating shit from them? :P
19:29:35 <quintopia> "in which any circumvention devices are stored"
19:29:52 <quintopia> aka, upload to cloud, delete locally
19:30:00 <quintopia> and then he must give them nothing
19:30:11 <ais523> you aren't allowed to destroy evidence after a court case starts
19:30:42 <quintopia> oh, they've already been through his disks and shit and know what he has?
19:31:04 <ais523> no, but if they can prove he destroyed evidence, he's in trouble
19:31:12 <ais523> later on, in the actual case
19:32:05 <quintopia> even if he just happens to drop a huge magnet on his hard drive?
19:33:03 <quintopia> I ALWAYS PLAY WITH MAGNETS THAT POWERFUL, BUT USUALLY I DON'T HAVE MY HARD DRIVES OUT ON THE TABLE AND I JUST FORGOTTED
19:33:19 <elliott> <copumpkin> they get to confiscate everything tech-related he owns
19:33:19 <elliott> <copumpkin> including USB keys and shit
19:33:33 <elliott> <quintopia> "in which any circumvention devices are stored"
19:33:52 <elliott> ais523: erm I think we're all aware that destroying the evidence would be /illegal/
19:33:54 <ais523> elliott: in SCO vs. IBM, discovery meant that IBM had to sent SCO a huge amount of code for them to look through
19:34:14 <elliott> nonetheless, considering the unjust laws, it is probably the sanest thing to do
19:34:16 <ais523> and they couldn't think of any easy way to ship it, so they physically sent a small mainframe with all the code on it and instructoins for using it
19:34:26 <ais523> elliott: well, in the middle of a court case against you, it would likely be a bad decision
19:34:41 <elliott> ais523: _unless_ you have a reasonable excuse...
19:34:42 <ais523> because in the case itself, they can use it as evidence that you had something to hide
19:34:58 <ais523> whereas if he submitted stuff and nothing turned up, it'd look really good and destroy Sony's case somewhat
19:35:11 <ais523> this is more a case of not shooting yourself in the foot, than legality
19:35:51 <elliott> I doubt that nothing would turn up :P
19:36:09 <elliott> what should I call my recent-changes-ircing bot?
19:36:55 <ais523> no reason to have two separate bots
19:37:01 <elliott> ais523: yes there is, code simplicity
19:37:10 <elliott> ais523: Herobrine is designed for utmost reliability in long-term log storage
19:37:28 <elliott> ais523: I'm not going to add any code that I think would make it less reliable or complicated
19:37:43 <elliott> ais523: it's basically a loggic-design bot
19:38:07 <elliott> ooh, I'll call it SomethingOnWheels
19:38:48 <ais523> wow, I'm near the top of the second screen of Enigma players wrt level completion percentage
19:38:52 -!- elliott has changed nick to onwheels.
19:38:54 <ais523> and that's as of last month, I've done a few monre since
19:39:38 <ais523> and I think I'm second out of esolangers (Safalra is 6 places ahead of me)
19:39:42 <ais523> quintopia: http://enigma-game.org
19:40:06 <ais523> as long as you disregard the tutorial being mostly full of Pelmanism clones, it's an excellent game
19:40:40 -!- onwheels has changed nick to elliott.
19:40:51 <ais523> also, it has some of the worst advertising ever
19:41:21 <quintopia> also, the creator doesn't have very good english
19:41:51 <ais523> most of the main devs are German
19:42:19 <ais523> I find the wording and grammar is mostly good (if a little odd in style), and the punctuation is occasionally insane
19:42:52 <ais523> hmm, that homepage pluralises Unix -> Unices; an interesting decision
19:43:42 <quintopia> "Day by day another level is waiting to no longer hold out living behind a closed door.
19:44:16 <ais523> it's grammatically correct I think, but the style is bizarre
19:44:28 <quintopia> also it's impossible to understand what is meant
19:44:30 <ais523> although "Day by day" should probably be "Every day,"
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19:44:45 <ais523> and the rest of the sentence could do with being rearranged to be a bit easier to parse
19:45:38 <elliott> you know what I love? and by love I mean hate?
19:46:05 <quintopia> saying it's grammatical is like saying "The mouse the cat the dog the boy loved chased ate died." is grammatical. True, but useless.
19:46:07 <ais523> elliott: you don't need to screenscrape, just parse the HTML
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19:46:28 <ais523> anyway, time to go home ... !
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19:46:32 <elliott> ais523: yes, yes, screenscrape has come to mean that in the common vernacular
19:47:08 <j-invariant> The mouse the cat the dog the boy loved chased ate died. <-- is that danish?
19:47:19 <olsner> no, I think it's english
19:48:20 <quintopia> nested dependent clauses are valid english grammar, but once you nest them too deep, it can't be parsed.
19:48:35 <quintopia> because humans are poor at parsing
19:49:02 <elliott> did i never share scrape.py
19:52:33 <quintopia> can i find out what date a folder was made?
19:52:42 <elliott> no, it is an impossible task
19:52:56 <elliott> scientists have been unable to find out how to do that
19:53:06 <elliott> quintopia: (it is actually impossible on linux i think)
19:53:09 <elliott> iirc ctime is something else
19:54:02 <elliott> st_ctime, a member of the stat structure specifying the last inode change time of a file in a Unix-like filesystem
19:54:54 <fizzie> It's a very poor approximation for "creation time", since it changes if you change the file permissions and stuff.
19:57:07 <fizzie> Well, FAT has an actual creation time, but not a specific "inode change time". (It does have the usual mtime and atime, though.)
20:00:06 <fizzie> And ext4 adds an (I think optional) "creation time" field in the inode structure, but it's very hard to extract since the usual stat() API can't read it.
20:00:29 <fizzie> Or at least it was suggested; don't know if they actually added it.
20:03:16 <fizzie> debugfs's "stat" command does show a "crtime" field, but the contents are as bogus as the atime on this "noatime"-mounted system.
20:04:00 <fizzie> (It shows Sep 7, 2010 for atime and crtime; I don't really know what time that is. Maybe the filesystem creation time.)
20:05:02 <fizzie> No, because show_super_stat's "filesystem created" time is Mar 30, 2010. Weird.
20:08:14 <fizzie> Hmm, actually I think I was just looking at an old file instead of a new one.
20:08:19 <fizzie> It does record the creation time.
20:09:43 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/crtime -- so that's how you get the creation time if you happen to have an ext4 system there.
20:10:17 <fizzie> (Just substitute the proper /dev/ path to the filesystem, and copy the inode number from ls -i.)
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20:13:19 <Ilari> Hmm... APNIC pool free figures have been at 1.38x/8 for three days in row...
20:14:34 <fizzie> Also if you happen to have a noatime-mounted fs, then atime == creation time.
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20:16:17 <Gregor> Ilari: I feel like I'm not clear on the terminology, even though it should be obvious. What this means is that there are 1.38*2^24 IPs available, yes? I mean, if it's only .38 of a /8, it's not a /8 at all, so does this really imply that there's a whole /8 free? Or is it just a needlessly-bizarre counting system?
20:16:47 <fizzie> It's just multiples of 2^24, AFAIK.
20:17:09 <Ilari> The standard allocation block at RIR level is /8 for IPv4 (/12 for IPv6).
20:17:35 <Gregor> (Yeesh, it should be friggin' /32 at least for IPv6 X_X)
20:17:58 <elliott> Gregor: Thank god there's more of us that think the IPv6 allocation policies are harmful.
20:18:27 <elliott> It's like we suddenly found this fuel source in massive abundance that'll last us meeeeellions of years, and so we decide to increase our energy consumption a hundredfold.
20:18:53 <Gregor> "A hundredfold" ... more like a hundred orders-of-magnitude-fold (OK, not quite that much :P )
20:19:19 <fizzie> But the routing table! (I mean, that's what I always hear as the justification of the giant blocks; more space to do network-hierarchical assignments so that you can aggregate routes better.)
20:19:25 <elliott> It's like we realise that IPv6 could last us FOREVER, we just don't want it to :P
20:19:59 <Gregor> elliott: When they have IPv8 (there will be no IPv7), it'll have 512-bit addresses, and be assigned in /13s.
20:20:24 <elliott> But hey, EvilMegaCorp thanks you for your donation of as many IPv6 addresses as are inside the entire IPv4 space; they will be useful to assign to pitiful, mortal slaves once our master plan is in action.
20:20:36 <elliott> (I cannot think of any other way a single organisation could use up an allocation that big.)
20:20:54 <elliott> Gregor: IPv17 -- one megabyte addresses, allocated in /1s.
20:21:18 <Ilari> The present IPv6 allocations: Over 10^24 per capita. IIRC, the similar number is something like 0.5 addresses...
20:21:19 <Gregor> Why don't we have bignum IPs? *runs*
20:21:29 <elliott> Gregor: BEST WORST IDEA EVER
20:21:56 <elliott> OK, whyTF is ii acting up.
20:22:20 <elliott> Meanwhile, the fabled "if switch" statement:
20:22:21 <elliott> 237 if(buf[2] == ' ' || buf[2] == '\0') switch (buf[1]) {
20:22:23 <Gregor> elliott: The greatest thing is that even if we could make it work, they would just assign some massive space at the 32-bit level, then leave a sliver of that free for 64-bit-long addresses. Then they'd assign a sliver of that space for 128-bit addresses. So if the address was 64-bits long, by definition you'd know the first 32 :P
20:22:40 <fizzie> Well, if they do run out of space from 2000::/3 in the next twenty years, maybe they'll try out smaller blocks in 4000::/3, 6000::/3, 8000::/3, a000::/3 and c000::/3, which are all equally large and in the "regular addresses" class.
20:22:55 <elliott> Gregor: So once the first 32-bits die, we can just start referring to 64-bit addresses as their 32-bit suffixes!
20:23:00 <elliott> OMG YOU SOLVED BOTH DEPLETION AND LONG ADDRESSES IN ONE GO
20:23:48 <elliott> The allocation policies aren't THAT crazy.
20:24:02 <Ilari> There also are 1000::/4 and E000::/4... But Those are /4s...
20:25:00 <Gregor> Ilari: So that you can simulate a complete IPv4 internet at the molecular level?
20:25:44 <elliott> Gregor: We should go back to the old !-separated addresses.
20:26:02 <elliott> Gregor: After all, the rest of the bang path was interpreted however the first host wanted to interpret it, so it's DISTRIBUTED.
20:26:08 <elliott> And those are ALL qualities we like!
20:26:41 <elliott> Gregor: I wish I was around when bang paths were... I'd set up a host that interpreted the rest of the path as an esoprogram before routing it.
20:26:42 <fizzie> Maybe just use interface index numbers. 0!3!2!66!12!5!22!13!...
20:26:47 <fizzie> Easier for them routers.
20:26:50 <elliott> And make sure all my mail had to come through that.
20:27:02 <Gregor> PACKET ROUTING WAS A MISTAKE
20:27:16 <elliott> Let's go back to banging rocks together.
20:27:27 <Gregor> I'm pretty sure that's what we did before computers.
20:27:27 <olsner> "note: the european router has been reorganized, please replace the 7 with 5 for talking to the US"
20:27:52 <Gregor> olsner: Oh god but how do you send that note nooooooooooo oh wait it's simple, flooding.
20:27:55 <elliott> Gregor: Then someone came around and discovered fire, and somebody sent fire down an integrated circuit made out of transistors, and here we are today.
20:28:14 <elliott> ACCURATE HISTORY OF COMPUTING
20:28:14 <olsner> yeah, all routing changes will be broadcast over the internet, obviously
20:28:41 <Ilari> The presently defined IPv6 ranges (bit combined) are: 0000::/6, 2000::/3 and FC00::/6...
20:28:42 <olsner> *routing changes and penis enlargement schemes
20:29:22 <Gregor> olsner: Well naturally.
20:29:49 <olsner> elliott: let me guess: you're doing it wrong
20:29:57 <elliott> olsner: unlikely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:30:07 <Ilari> So there are 27 undefined /5s...
20:30:11 <elliott> * [onwheels] (~onwheels@91.105.119.236): William
20:30:12 <elliott> * [onwheels] hubbard.freenode.net :Pittsburgh, PA, US
20:30:12 <elliott> * [onwheels] is logged in as onwheels
20:30:12 <elliott> * [onwheels] End of WHOIS list.
20:30:14 <elliott> WHY WON'T YOU JOIN THE FUCKING CHANNEL
20:31:34 <fizzie> elliott: Well, APNIC did change their policies so that the "default" size for an end-site is /56, not /48.
20:31:59 <fizzie> I'm finding it hard to find a proper changelog.
20:32:11 <fizzie> But their graph page says "The graph on this page shows a levelling of growth from the IPv6 address size point of view. This is a direct result of the policies to reduce the end-site assignment from /48 to /56, and the change of the HD ratio, where Members can obtain additional IPv6 addresses, from 0.8 to 0.94"
20:32:15 <fizzie> http://www.apnic.net/publications/research-and-insights/stats/ipv6-distribution
20:32:23 <Gregor> fizzie: But that means you can only have 1,099,511,627,776 IPv4 Internets at an end site D-8
20:32:28 <Ilari> ARIN is proposing policy that would bump the allocation sizes for LIRs (presently mostly /32) a lot..
20:32:28 <fizzie> Unfortunately the graph itself gave me a "O3 Portal error" and a long stack-trace.
20:32:54 <elliott> this is completely fux0ed0ejreodklm
20:33:08 <quintopia> elliott: re: history of computing. was that integrated circuit made of redstone by any chance?
20:33:18 <elliott> quintopia: no, it was made out of rocks
20:33:42 <quintopia> good thing we discovered magic then
20:33:45 <fizzie> Gregor: It would be more correct to say that you can only have 256 subnets at and end-site, since you can't split networks smaller than /64 really.
20:36:47 <olsner> or rather, what are you failing at?
20:37:11 <olsner> that much is assumed, what else?
20:37:47 <elliott> yay, at least it breaks now
20:38:08 -!- onwheels has joined.
20:38:17 <olsner> I've just discovered that my thing that works fine in bochs is completely broken on qemu
20:38:19 -!- onwheels has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:38:30 <quintopia> this looks like a job for me! so everybody just follow me! cuz we need a little controversy! cuz it feels so empty without me!
20:38:33 <elliott> ./onwheels: 5: cannot create irc/irc.freenode.net/in: Directory nonexistent
20:38:33 <elliott> ./onwheels: 6: cannot create irc/irc.freenode.net/#esoteric/in: Directory nonexistent
20:38:33 <elliott> tail: cannot open `irc/irc.freenode.net/#esoteric/out' for reading: No such file or directory
20:38:33 <elliott> tail: cannot watch parent directory of `irc/irc.freenode.net/#esoteric/out': No such file or directory
20:39:10 <olsner> the directory doesn't exist, obviously
20:39:19 <olsner> maybe you should create it?
20:40:09 <olsner> what is that and why may I be one?
20:40:40 -!- onwheels has joined.
20:40:49 <olsner> right, because of the sjdgflking
20:41:13 -!- onwheels has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:41:47 -!- onwheels has joined.
20:41:52 -!- onwheels has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:42:11 <olsner> because it and so on etc, is it?
20:42:25 <elliott> yes but with the and of it whit's on end if i could
20:42:27 -!- onwheels has joined.
20:42:54 <olsner> how is babby formed? onwheels!
20:43:07 <olsner> on wheels, is babby formed
20:43:16 <elliott> well kelps are kind of like that?
20:43:54 <elliott> methinks it is like a weasel
20:45:54 -!- onwheels has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:46:50 <elliott> hmm, what's a reliable way to set up that x in "x &" will terminate when the script does?
20:48:59 -!- onwheels has joined.
20:49:06 <Gregor> elliott: If you don't know how many things may be started and just want to assert that everything gets killed, a reliable but sort-of silly way is while ! kill %; do sleep 1; done
20:49:18 <Gregor> Err, sorry, while kill %, not while ! kill %
20:49:23 <elliott> Gregor: That doesn't run when the script exits, dude :P
20:49:26 <elliott> I mean when it exits abnormally.
20:49:31 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
20:50:42 -!- onwheels has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:51:53 <elliott> How often do you think I can poll the recent changes page without Graue hating me
20:52:06 <Gregor> Once every 6 milliseconds.
20:56:12 <quintopia> wut. "in 60 years, technology will be far past irc bots and myself"
20:56:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:56:51 <quintopia> it means that irc bots won't be around in 60 years! D:
20:57:16 <j-invariant> somehow my whole cactus thing and the mine underneath ithave disappeared
20:57:28 <j-invariant> i dont know to blame optimine/etc or thm egame itself
21:03:50 -!- Guest34714 has joined.
21:03:54 -!- Guest34714 has changed nick to Slereah.
21:18:12 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.16/20101130074636]).
21:21:20 <elliott> Anyone know why MediaWiki's recent changes feed is so terrible?
21:29:37 <quintopia> if i forgot to put the right options in useradd to make the home dir, can i just cp /etc/skel /home/user?
21:32:06 <j-invariant> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/17152/given-an-infinite-number-of-monkeys-and-an-infinite-amount-of-time-would-one-of jeff atwood is a fucking idiot
21:35:24 <copumpkin> so math.stackexchange.com is for low-level math questions and mathoverflow is for fancy math questions?
21:35:31 <copumpkin> I didn't even realize there was a math.stackexchange.com
21:35:52 <elliott> math.stackexchange.com is for stupid questions, mathoverflow is for people who are actually mathematicians
21:36:13 <elliott> why did jeff atwood close that question
21:36:19 <elliott> is it because he's a moron
21:36:22 <elliott> or because he's a fucking moron?
21:36:23 <copumpkin> damn, they should expel me from mathoverflow
21:36:33 <elliott> i think it's because he's a fucking moron, yeah
21:37:04 <elliott> I closed this question as it's attracting a lot of "fun" answers which aren't helpful. I also marked it community wiki so these "fun" answers aren't reputation factories for stuff that really isn't about math. – Jeff Atwood♦ Jan 15 at 6:16
21:37:10 -!- variable has joined.
21:37:19 <variable> this might be of some interest to people: http://blog.regehr.org/archives/364?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EmbeddedInAcademia+%28Embedded+in+Academia%29
21:37:31 <copumpkin> I SHALL ENFORCE MY LIMITED VIEW OF MATH
21:37:51 <variable> copumpkin, I am part of math. I am fun. QED. You are wrong.
21:38:06 <elliott> oh don't do it variable j-invariant will get started
21:38:21 <elliott> mention program verification :)
21:38:34 <variable> elliott, you did it - not me :-)
21:40:45 <variable> elliott, IMHO program verification is useful if done well and for the critical components of a system.
21:47:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:50:57 <elliott> mycroftiv: you should talk more
21:59:13 <pikhq> What the *fuuuck*.
21:59:22 <pikhq> The TRO against George Hotz et al. was granted.
22:00:13 <pikhq> Jurisdiction still in question.
22:00:18 <elliott> does anyone have vagrant.py
22:00:32 <elliott> i replaced this with two statements
22:02:23 <pikhq> Yes, it is still in question *whether* the Northern District of California has the power to grant a TRO against George Hotz, but they went ahead and did so.
22:04:37 -!- acetoline has joined.
22:06:01 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:06:41 <pikhq> Near as I can tell (IANAL), George Hotz would be entirely in the clear to completely ignore this until the time of the jurisdiction hearing.
22:07:54 <pikhq> Hahahah you're 13 I get it.
22:08:30 <pikhq> Nope, the claim is that the plaintiff has "met its burden to show that the Court *may* exercise specific jurisdiction over Hotz"...
22:08:47 <pikhq> That is really frightening precedent.
22:15:02 <copumpkin> is there a different between being 13 and being TOTALLY 13?
22:18:26 <Mathnerd314> in the meantime, anyone willing to explain to a dumb guy on the internet why formatting functions aren't invertible?
22:19:19 <elliott> gee, don't be so hard on yourself!
22:19:26 <elliott> (this joke will fail if Mathnerd314 is actually referring to himself)
22:20:17 <Mathnerd314> elliott: do you count figments of my imagination as myself?
22:21:04 <Mathnerd314> j-invariant: invertible in the sense of "determine formatting string from various input-output pairs"
22:21:08 <acetoline> Mathnerd314, you mean like to_number() ?
22:21:14 <pikhq> ... Okay, the TRO is even worse.
22:21:23 <pikhq> It's a restraining order against every sentient being.
22:21:51 <elliott> Mathnerd314: printf("%.2f", 0.123) == printf("%.2f", 0.1234)
22:21:58 <elliott> or do you mean reverse to the string?
22:22:01 <acetoline> Mathnerd314, as soon as you define 'invertible' I will answer your question.
22:22:06 <pikhq> Yes, the court is exercising universal jurisdiction.
22:22:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:22:17 <elliott> printf(" %d",3) == printf("% 2d",3)
22:23:00 <pikhq> So. I do believe his lawyer has cause to move for a mistrial.
22:23:06 <Mathnerd314> elliott: reverse to the string; but it has to satisfy an arbitrarily large number of I-O pairs
22:23:17 <elliott> Mathnerd314: there is no such printf string
22:23:21 <elliott> all printf strings take a fixed number of arguments
22:23:54 <acetoline> Mathnerd314, that is as far removed as 'invertible' as I could imagine
22:24:23 <acetoline> you don't know what you're talking about
22:24:31 <Mathnerd314> acetoline: I have a printf function of type String -> Input -> Output. but this is currying, so I am reversing from (Input -> Output) to String
22:24:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: a computable function cannot analyse a function fully
22:24:59 <elliott> only a finite number of input/output pairs
22:25:00 <j-invariant> Mathnerd314: f is invertible if there exists some g such that fg = id and gf = id
22:25:09 <elliott> therefore, no computable function can establish a bijection String <-> (Input -> Output)
22:25:20 <elliott> if i said something wrong, that's cuz i'm tired!
22:25:32 <elliott> ofc Mathnerd314 might mean non-computably.
22:25:52 <copumpkin> Mathnerd314: there's no difference between (s)printf("123") and (s)printf("%d", 123), or (s)printf("1%d%d", 2, 3)
22:26:27 <Mathnerd314> copumpkin: yes, there is, because they take different argument inputs
22:26:30 <elliott> copumpkin: you can show that "123" and "%d" differ by simply feeding both two different inputs
22:26:36 <elliott> you can only ever feed a finite number of inputs
22:26:39 <copumpkin> oh you're talking about a fixed format string?
22:26:45 <elliott> so you will be able to foil it
22:26:53 <elliott> (assuming the inversion has to be computable)
22:26:53 <acetoline> copumpkin is right; you can't do it because it's not injective.
22:27:55 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but I don't think format strings are Turing complete
22:29:17 <Mathnerd314> j-invariant: are there only a finite number of format strings that can produce a given input-output pair?
22:31:01 <Mathnerd314> j-invariant: so, take one input, feed it to a formatting function, calculate possible format strings from the output, and find distinguishing inputs until the format string is reversed
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22:33:14 <elliott> <Mathnerd314> j-invariant: are there only a finite number of format strings that can produce a given input-output pair?
22:33:18 <elliott> i don't think this is true at all
22:34:29 <pikhq> Judging from previous rulings by Illston, I can conclude one thing.
22:34:38 <pikhq> Judge Illston loves her bribes.
22:34:45 <Mathnerd314> elliott: what about an ordering by # of characters?
22:34:48 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:34:57 <elliott> Mathnerd314: what do you mean
22:35:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: there are only a finite number of format strings of a given length that produce an input-output pair
22:36:20 <pikhq> "n February 2004, Illston ruled that the company's software, which was intended, according to the company, to allow consumers to make backup copies of DVDs by "circumventing" so-called "copy protection" methods, was illegal under Federal law."
22:36:51 <pikhq> Dear God that's awful.
22:36:57 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so by testing each length in order, you're guaranteed to halt if the given formatting function is defined by a finite format string
22:37:10 <pikhq> She made a ruling on a *federal crime* in a *civil suit*.
22:37:23 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i don't see how this is an algorithm for doing what you say
22:37:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314: how does that change the black-box formatting function back into its string?
22:37:52 <pikhq> That is completely contrary to hundreds of years of precedent.
22:38:09 <elliott> your mom is completely contrary to hundreds of years of precedent
22:38:18 <pikhq> Going back *several languages*.
22:38:18 <elliott> by breaking all the accepted theories of MAXIMUM FAT
22:38:51 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, this breaks common law. Seriously, she broke it on a whim.
22:39:07 <elliott> they decided to fix the maximum legal fat value centuries ago
22:39:08 <pikhq> I walked into that.
22:39:42 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you can enumerate all format strings but there is no way you can decide if "blackbox == format_function_for(str)"
22:40:08 <elliott> because equality on functions with infinite inputs isn't computable etc etc etc
22:40:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: you're given a "white box": a function that you know has been defined by a format string
22:40:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: but the point is that you simply can't identify it with a string
22:40:59 <elliott> because that involves checking infinite inputs
22:41:05 <elliott> pikhq: │ If you want the uClibc math library to contain the full set C99 │
22:41:06 <elliott> │ math library features, then answer Y. If you leave this set to │
22:41:06 <elliott> │ N the math library will contain only the math functions that were │
22:41:06 <elliott> │ listed as part of the traditional POSIX/IEEE 1003.1b-1993 standard. │
22:41:08 <elliott> │ Leaving this option set to N will save around 35k on an x86 system. │
22:41:45 <Mathnerd314> elliott: when do you need an infinite input?
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22:42:05 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok let's make this simpler. let's say we only allow format strings with one input, an arbitrary natural.
22:42:07 * pikhq suspects that the entire US legal system needs to be razed to the ground.
22:42:15 <elliott> Mathnerd314: and let's say that this is a format string:
22:42:46 <pikhq> Fucking remove it all.
22:42:54 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: duh. endsoftwarepatents.org has been around for ages
22:43:06 <elliott> Software patents == entire legal system
22:43:09 <elliott> format string is literal text interspersed with <format>. <format> := '% ' nat 'd'
22:43:10 <pikhq> And forbid all those involved in it from acting in the successor.
22:43:26 <elliott> i dunno this is making my head hurt, back to configuring uclibc
22:43:28 <pikhq> Seriously, near as I can tell it's a gigantic kangaroo court system.
22:45:09 <elliott> taht would be a good court system
22:45:14 <elliott> all judges are gigantic kangaroos
22:48:10 <Mathnerd314> elliott: test 1, 10, 100, etc. - the nat is finite, sooner or later you'll stop
22:48:37 <elliott> fmt1(1) == fmt1(1), ok keep going
22:48:44 <elliott> fmt1(2) == fmt1(2), ok keep going
22:48:55 <elliott> fmt1(g64) == fmt2(g64) ...
22:49:01 <elliott> you can decide inequality in finite time
22:49:06 <elliott> pikhq: http://cxx.uclibc.org/
22:49:24 -!- Mannerisky has joined.
22:49:28 <j-invariant> elliott: this augur guy in #haskell is a real dick head
22:49:38 <elliott> augur is in here you moron
22:50:52 <augur> HEY GUYS SOMEONE IN ANOTHER CHANNEL WAS MEAN TO ME :(((((((((((((
22:50:54 <elliott> j-invariant: you just hate everyone
22:51:16 <augur> j-invariant: im a dick to you because you were a dick to me back when you called yourself fax.
22:51:25 <augur> not that you can see what i just said, but
22:54:13 -!- Behold has joined.
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22:55:09 <elliott> j-invariant: how was augur a dick?
22:58:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:58:58 <elliott> pikhq: WHY DOESN'T UCLIBC SUPPORT ZONEINFO
23:01:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:01:55 -!- coppro has joined.
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23:08:24 <oerjan> elliott: i'm not sure if augur just tried to drop a "bomb" or not.
23:10:41 <oerjan> j-invariant: in any case, some of us knew already, personally i just didn't want to embarass you unless you wanted to tell it yourself.
23:10:52 <elliott> j-invariant has augur on ignore doesn't he
23:11:19 <elliott> that's what he said in the #haskell logs i read before he called augur a dickhead in here :p
23:13:16 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:13:18 <oerjan> j-invariant: also you're welcome here as far as i am concerned
23:14:12 <elliott> i have no idea what's going on
23:14:38 <oerjan> and _i_ am having this awkward deja vu feeling :(
23:15:22 <oerjan> i don't know it's sort of dream-like
23:15:43 <elliott> have i mentioned that everyone is happy and life is wonderful
23:15:55 <elliott> thought you might like to know
23:16:35 <oerjan> i'm feeling rather counter-examply
23:17:10 <elliott> oerjan: well when people aren't happy it's generally because they're not being happy enough
23:17:15 <elliott> watch, this is the correct way to do it:
23:17:18 <elliott> ^_____________^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:17:23 <elliott> :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
23:17:34 <elliott> haaaaapyyyyyyptykptorkyopojdfjshglfdjJO!IJOI!J!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:17:52 <elliott> let's have a party in here right now please
23:18:06 <elliott> i don't think anyone is lame
23:18:18 <oerjan> quintopia: oh btw you asked whether you could fold over a list without recursion didn't you?
23:18:40 <quintopia> if foldl could be implemented without calling itself
23:18:56 <oerjan> quintopia: you can do it if you _implement_ lists as the corresponding foldr function
23:18:59 <quintopia> if it calls something else recursive, that's fine
23:19:06 <elliott> quintopia: the thing is that haskell doesn't actually come with any functions or data types
23:19:18 <elliott> so there's no "primitive" functions foldl could be implemented in terms of
23:19:21 <elliott> what oerjan said would work, though
23:19:24 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
23:19:33 <elliott> type List a = (a -> b -> b) -> b -> b
23:19:44 <oerjan> you want a forall on that type though
23:19:44 <elliott> cons :: a -> List a -> List a
23:19:53 <quintopia> well, it doesn't need to be primitive. just other standard library functions...
23:20:00 <elliott> cons x xs = \f z -> f x (xs f z)
23:20:18 <elliott> quintopia: you can do foldl in terms of foldr
23:20:44 <elliott> ask oerjan, i've forgotten
23:20:50 <elliott> and he's not as happy as me but he should be!!!!
23:21:55 <Sgeo> elliott, should I bother watching Past Tense, Parts I and II, considering that I've seen the ending before?
23:22:04 <elliott> /tmp/ccKnb956.o: In function `main':
23:22:04 <elliott> foo.c:(.text+0x11): undefined reference to `__printf_chk'
23:22:46 <elliott> guys i have an important announcement to make
23:22:47 <quintopia> that's pretty cool, elliott. i can see why you're so happy
23:22:51 <elliott> mur furzur curbur turbu duh
23:23:20 <elliott> j-invariant: are you feeling the happy
23:23:44 <elliott> you guys are dicks ... be more happy
23:25:42 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:26:12 * pikhq still can't believe that the court has claimed jurisdiction over all of everything.
23:26:56 <pikhq> coppro: The Northern District of California, in SCEA v. George Hotz et al.
23:27:41 <quintopia> elliott: only if it's better than mine: a horse walks into a bar and orders a beer. the bartender says "sure, but why the long face?" and the horse says "my wife is dying of an inoperable malignant brain tumor."
23:28:27 <pikhq> coppro: http://www.scribd.com/doc/47676627/50-Order-GRANTING-TRO
23:28:30 <quintopia> i didn't give you permission to tell a joke that was worse than mine
23:29:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:29:48 <quintopia> shut up. i just poisoned your water and you are dying
23:30:37 <oerjan> :t let foldl f start l = foldr (\y g t -> g (f t y)) id l start in foldl
23:30:37 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (a -> a1 -> a) -> a -> [a1] -> a
23:30:42 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
23:31:06 <elliott> man wtf this is some shitty shit
23:31:25 <oerjan> elliott: ARE YOU REFERRING TO MY foldl
23:31:28 <elliott> so oerjan are you still using winghci:DDDDDDDDDD
23:31:41 <elliott> can you shout FOLDL is it POSSIBLE what are these people doing...?
23:31:51 <quintopia> oerjan: could you explain what that does in plain english to a non-haskeller?
23:32:03 <oerjan> elliott: actually i fired up winhugs last because i was checking the Foldable source code
23:32:34 <coppro> pikhq: it hasn't explicitly asserted jurisdiction has it?
23:32:35 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or ")"
23:32:53 <elliott> @pl \f start l -> foldr (flip (.) . flip f) id l start
23:32:54 <lambdabot> flip . flip foldr id . (flip (.) .) . flip
23:32:58 <elliott> quintopia: it's just flip . flip foldr id . (flip (.) .) . flip
23:33:02 <oerjan> quintopia: basically it uses a foldr to build up the \x -> foldl f x l function for a list
23:33:20 <quintopia> oh, it's just using the trick of flipping a list and then foldring it?
23:33:45 <oerjan> quintopia: that's not how i thought of it
23:34:21 <quintopia> yeah i'll just wait until i learn haskell i suppose
23:34:38 <oerjan> quintopia: but think about it this way, if you know how to foldl over a list l, how can you foldl over the list (x:l)? once you have that you can use _foldr_ to build the function for foldling over any list
23:35:33 <oerjan> the g in there is the function that foldl's over l. oh.
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23:35:49 <oerjan> quintopia: s/x/y/ to match the variables better with what i wrote
23:36:34 <elliott> oerjan i don't think much of your happiness levels
23:37:04 <elliott> are all norwegian mouths pointy like that?
23:37:18 <quintopia> oerjan: i don't think much of your happyness levels. can I get a "HAHAHAHAFAWAHAHAHA"
23:37:26 <elliott> quintopia: oh that would be the best est!
23:37:45 <elliott> this isn't working i wonder why
23:37:55 <oerjan> quintopia: i would need to ponder my plans for world domination for that, and i'm not sure that would be good
23:38:09 <elliott> in the post-oerjan world, do we get happies
23:38:17 <quintopia> oerjan: just don't ponder them out loud. if you don't expose them, we can't foil them
23:39:13 <elliott> it would probably be quite nice
23:39:32 <oerjan> (btw when i checked the Foldable source code was earlier today, i didn't look for this function there)
23:41:41 <oerjan> elliott: happies or harpies, i haven't quite decided yet
23:42:17 <elliott> oerjan: i am no longer so supportive of your dictatorship
23:42:39 <oerjan> elliott: but but harpies, free weight loss program!
23:42:56 <elliott> oerjan: are the harpies the free weight loss program?
23:43:21 <oerjan> ...i thought that was obvious
23:45:18 <elliott> so anyway i realised something i was doing was stupid
23:45:27 <elliott> Some other configuration options are:
23:45:27 <elliott> make oldconfig - Update an old .config file for a newer version of busybox.
23:45:28 <elliott> make allyesconfig - Select absolutely everything. This creates a statically linked version of busybox full of debug code, with dependencies on selinux, using devfs names... This makes sure everything compiles. Whether or not the result would do anything useful is an open question.
23:45:28 <elliott> make randconfig - Create a random configuration for test purposes.
23:45:32 <elliott> HEAD EXPLODING FROM AWESOME
23:46:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:46:22 <elliott> pikhq: i realised something i did was stupid
23:50:01 <pikhq> Oh motherfucking hell.
23:50:21 <pikhq> Apparently Sony is claiming jurisdiction based on the terms of use on their website.
23:50:37 <pikhq> Somehow, by visiting a website you can be submitted to personal jurisdiction.
23:50:51 <pikhq> elliott: No, just not responding to you.
23:50:58 <elliott> pikhq: i do not understand why you would do that!
23:51:21 <pikhq> "However, even if the firmware was downloaded pursuant tothe PlayStation website as done by Hotz’s attorney, the user is still subject to the PlayStationwebsite’s terms and conditions athttp://us.playstation.com/support/termsofuse/index.htm.These terms prohibit, among other things, “using, making or distributing unauthorizedsoftware or hardware in conjunction with the Sites, or taking or using any data from the Sitesto design, develop or
23:51:28 <pikhq> The terms also includea forum selection clause and consent to jurisdiction in San Mateo County, California. They also incorporate by reference the terms of the PSN User Agreement. Therefore, a user who downloads the firmware via the PlayStation website, instead of the PSN, nonethelessconsents to jurisdiction in California."
23:51:50 <elliott> typedef signed char smallint;
23:52:02 <pikhq> By visiting that site you... Come under the jurisdiction of California‽
23:52:11 <elliott> pikhq: so you know how I fixed #!/usr/bin/env by adding an interpreter thing
23:52:25 <elliott> since i have no /usr/bin/env
23:52:36 <elliott> to add the magic for "#!/usr/bin/env"
23:52:41 <coppro> pikhq: I see the reasoning
23:52:47 <elliott> pikhq: well i don't need to write my own processor -- i can just specify the interpreter as /bin/env!
23:52:50 <elliott> that is my realisation for the day
23:53:00 <coppro> but IIRC those sorts of nonnegotiable consent-to-jurisdiction clauses are typically ill-received
23:58:13 -!- pikhq has set topic: By joining this chatroom you consent to the jurisdiction of Agora Nomic. | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:58:34 <pikhq> Now to convince their lawyers to join #esoteric.
23:58:52 <elliott> gcc: /usr/x86_64-linux-uclibc/usr/lib/crt{1,i,n}.o: No such file or directory
23:59:02 <coppro> courts historically are not a big fan of "<BIG CORPORATION> implements non-negotiable required unreasonable arbitration clause"
23:59:17 <pikhq> coppro: Well, they didn't laugh it out of court.
23:59:26 <pikhq> coppro: Instead, the TRO was granted.
23:59:30 <elliott> wow, this is working how is this working ...?
23:59:54 <coppro> pikhq: it could be a) the judge is simply incompetent
23:59:55 <pikhq> coppro: As I have suggested before, the judge may like bribes.
00:00:02 <elliott> pikhq I am actually making progress on Kitten so you should be happy.
00:00:19 <coppro> c) the judge is unsure about the jurisdictional issue and figures somehow issuing a TRO is correct?
00:00:27 <pikhq> Sony's lawyers are literally down the street from this court...
00:00:43 <coppro> d) the judge is planning to reject the jurisdictional challenge but hasn't written it up yet
00:00:47 <elliott> vfork_daemon_rexec.c:(.text.bb_daemonize_or_rexec+0x21): undefined reference to `close'
00:01:13 <pikhq> coppro: Incompetence or malicious ignorance is required for d.
00:01:44 <pikhq> coppro: As it currently stands, the TRO has been granted but jurisdiction may not exist.
00:02:18 <elliott> 00:11:47 <coppro> pikhq: it could be a) the judge is simply incompetent
00:02:18 <elliott> 00:11:57 <coppro> oh, it could be that
00:02:19 <elliott> 00:12:12 <coppro> c) the judge is unsure about the jurisdictional issue and figures somehow issuing a TRO is correct?
00:02:27 <elliott> pikhq: ask coppro where b went
00:02:38 <coppro> pikhq: No, d) is entirely reasonable
00:02:50 <coppro> if I as the judge was entirely sure I was going to reject the motion to dismiss
00:02:53 <coppro> but hadn't written it up
00:02:58 <coppro> I would go for the TRO still
00:03:12 <coppro> since I have alread decided I have jurisdiction
00:03:27 <pikhq> coppro: The issue is that before you reject the motion to dismiss, it is de jure entirely in question whether you have any power to grant the TRO.
00:03:38 <elliott> pikhq: how can one use -nostdinc but still get gcc internal headers?
00:03:44 <coppro> no, the power is platonice
00:04:05 <pikhq> coppro: So, courts have power in Pluto?
00:04:29 <pikhq> If you say "yes" I'm commiting xenocide.
00:04:36 <coppro> I mean that if I have jurisdiction, I have jursdiction
00:04:50 <coppro> I don't need to say "no your motion to dismiss for lack of jursidction fails" for that to be the case
00:07:24 <oerjan> pikhq: he said platonic, not plutonic. pay attention!
00:08:09 <pikhq> coppro: Also, merely rejecting the motion to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction *seems* to indicate maliciousness or incompetence to me.
00:09:56 <pikhq> coppro: One of the many, many claims here is that exercising personal jurisdiction over Mr. Hotz is unreasonable in this case, and as such the court must dismiss...
00:09:57 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:10:04 <pikhq> coppro: Sony has done fuck-all to address this.
00:10:22 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:10:37 <pikhq> http://www.scribd.com/doc/47676622/1-Defendant%E2%80%99s-Supplemental-Brief-in-Opposition-to-Plaintiff-s-Ex-Parte-Motion-for-Temptorary-Restraining-Order
00:10:47 <pikhq> http://www.scribd.com/doc/47676625/47-Plaintiffs-Reply-to-Defendant-s-Supplemental-Brief
00:13:48 <coppro> pikhq: he hasn't rejected the motion to dismiss yet, has he?
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00:20:48 <oerjan> dismiss motion to reject
00:21:30 <pikhq> coppro: Not at all.
00:21:42 <pikhq> coppro: Also "she".
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00:23:02 <elliott> pikhq: excuse me importance in -minecraft
00:23:17 <pikhq> elliott: I'm up to 21, okay?
00:23:32 <elliott> pikhq: you have to get through Survival Island too
00:23:37 <elliott> before you're up to date for this new one
00:23:52 <pikhq> elliott: I've got a 3 day weekend coming up.
00:23:59 <pikhq> Like I will every week this semester.
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00:27:36 <coppro> admittedly, the actual stuff I care about Friday ends at 11:30 am
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00:56:49 <c0w> j-invariant: seriously, what is your problem
00:57:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:57:38 <copumpkin> I'm trying to get through to j-invariant
00:58:03 <copumpkin> then jmcarthur is an idiot for silencing?
00:58:41 <elliott> j-invariant: why not just be more civil to people ...
00:58:45 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*116559cd@*.17.101.89.205.
00:59:18 <elliott> j-invariant: do you have me on ignore
00:59:46 <copumpkin> j-invariant has everyone on ignore
00:59:54 <copumpkin> as I said, IRC is a twitter substitute
01:00:17 <pikhq> ... He has *everyone* on ignore‽
01:00:19 <copumpkin> oerjan: you could've just asked me to remove it
01:00:29 <elliott> obviously me, copumpkin, augur
01:00:38 <pikhq> j-invariant: Mi ankaŭ?
01:01:08 <elliott> I think j-invariant needs some...cool down time away from IRC.
01:01:23 <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:01:31 <pikhq> What the heck happened, anyways?
01:01:35 <copumpkin> can someone paste that so that j-invariant can see it?
01:01:40 <elliott> ^cat <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:01:50 <elliott> !echo <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:01:52 <elliott> `echo <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:02:01 <EgoBot> <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:02:08 <HackEgo> <copumpkin> I honestly don't want j-invariant to be silenced in #haskell. I hate banning/silencing people, especially when the behavior that led to it is pretty simple to avoid, and j-invariant seems to know enough to be fun to talk to
01:02:10 <elliott> oops, it's going to come through twice
01:02:18 <oerjan> elliott: EgoBot and HackEgo are _always_ slow, you know that perfectly well
01:02:28 <elliott> j-invariant: none of that shit.
01:02:35 <elliott> copumpkin: well his temper has been shortening by the day.
01:02:41 <elliott> a temporary ban is probably for the best ...
01:02:53 <Mathnerd314> copumpkin: IRC is open source, so it's better than twitter
01:02:56 <elliott> `echo j-invariant: why am I (elliott) on /ignore?
01:02:57 <HackEgo> j-invariant: why am I (elliott) on /ignore?
01:03:01 <elliott> Mathnerd314: IRC isn't software, so no it's not open source
01:03:26 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It is, however, an *open standard*.
01:03:32 <elliott> `echo j-invariant: I seriously just want to know what I said ...
01:03:36 <HackEgo> j-invariant: I seriously just want to know what I said ...
01:03:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the freenode servers are open-source, as are several clients, and the standard is as well... it's about as open as can be
01:04:09 <copumpkin> `echo j-invariant because I've asked you to be civil and stop disparaging Haskell in #haskell? I'm not even sure when you ignored me or why. Can you unignore me and we can sort this out in private maybe?
01:04:10 <HackEgo> j-invariant because I've asked you to be civil and stop disparaging Haskell in #haskell? I'm not even sure when you ignored me or why. Can you unignore me and we can sort this out in private maybe?
01:04:31 <elliott> it might be good to note that that was you
01:04:38 <elliott> because we're getting mixed up botwise here
01:05:06 <oerjan> i should point out that i consider evading ignores to be bannable.
01:05:26 -!- copumpkin has left (?).
01:05:49 <oerjan> sheesh is _everyone_ overreacting now...
01:06:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:06:15 <elliott> oerjan: oh come on, evading ignores happens in here all the time.
01:06:23 <elliott> copumpkin was trying to reach a peaceful resolution to the situation in #haskell.
01:06:51 <elliott> oerjan: are personal insults a bannable offence?
01:08:02 <oerjan> i was implying somewhat more extreme cases
01:08:23 <elliott> oerjan: what does that mean
01:08:45 <elliott> oerjan: that's an actual question :/
01:08:49 <elliott> i can't parse the sentence
01:09:10 <elliott> oh joy <gwern> at least Zetsubou-sensei had the courtesy to hang himself <j-invariant> m aybe I sh;uold
01:10:23 <pikhq> Is j-invariant bipolar or something?
01:11:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:11:30 <copumpkin> but having rejoined, I shall now close my laptop and walk home!
01:14:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:14:43 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*116559cd@*.17.101.89.205.
01:14:54 <elliott> isn't there meant to be a boss fight?
01:15:27 <copumpkin> I'll return and resume the boss fight later :)
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01:16:35 <elliott> can i use you as a punching bag oerjan?
01:18:40 <oerjan> as if you've ever asked before
01:20:19 <elliott> well j-invariant's been -q'd on #haskell now
01:20:23 <elliott> maybe we can just forget it ever happened! >_>
01:21:00 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:21:07 <oerjan> let's try that for a while
01:23:23 <pikhq> So. Egypt no longer has Internet at all.
01:23:52 <pikhq> The local government shut down pretty much all ISPs in response to the protests.
01:24:34 <oerjan> mubarak doesn't mess around.
01:24:45 <pikhq> No, but he may still be fucked.
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02:14:33 <Gregor> Idea: Mind-bogglingly slow Internet access which is extremely prone to middle-man attacks.
02:15:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: By joining this chatroom you consent to the jurisdiction of the Principality of Gregora, Land of Hats. | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
02:16:30 <oerjan> shouldn't that be http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats ?
02:32:04 <Sgeo> Wow, I haven't eaten much these past two days
02:32:16 <Sgeo> ...actually, I don't think I even ate today
02:35:13 <elliott> Sgeo: you realise eating is a requirement of human life
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03:07:10 * oerjan waves his hands vaguely in a southwestern direction
03:08:35 <oerjan> YOU HAVE TOO LITTLE FAITH, ELLIOTT
03:08:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that doesn't solve the slow problem. or the unreliable problem.
03:08:58 <elliott> Mathnerd314: also, https is insecure if you get MITM'd
03:09:05 <elliott> because the man in the middle can just send you any old certificate
03:09:12 <Mathnerd314> elliott: not if you cache your certificates
03:09:25 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so basically to use this you have to first have a real internet connetion
03:09:34 <elliott> and then use the slow, unreliable, insecure network?
03:10:06 <Mathnerd314> elliott: you send for a USB key in the mail, plug it in, and use the internet. alternately, it comes preloaded on the PC
03:10:17 <elliott> what do usb keys have to do with anything
03:10:29 <oerjan> MAIL IN THE MIDDLE ATTACKS
03:10:51 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you buy a USB key containing the certificate of every website ever?
03:10:54 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: if they can get your mail, they can get anything
03:11:00 <elliott> i have no fucking clue what you're on about
03:11:31 <elliott> anyway root certs aren't a trustable model in the slighest.
03:11:34 <elliott> your idea is a bad idea. :p
03:12:07 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I'm pretty certain there's some protocol for secure communication over an insecure medium with prior knowledge
03:12:23 <elliott> Mathnerd314: going to work on the incredibly slow and unreliable problems?
03:12:42 <Mathnerd314> elliott: why would it be slow and unreliable?
03:12:59 <elliott> Gregor: yo join in, i have a headache and typing is hard
03:13:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: slow because there would be many, many router hops.
03:13:16 <elliott> unreliable because routers would go out all the time.
03:13:23 <elliott> Mathnerd314: bittorrent has central trackers
03:13:26 <elliott> the DHT is less fast and reliable
03:13:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: and bittorrent peers don't let you access any resource on the internet
03:13:38 <Gregor> The prior knowledge is CAs. Discuss.
03:13:54 <elliott> Gregor: tell him why it's slow and unreliable with better wording than i used :P
03:15:21 <elliott> "Here's my incredibly slow, impractical and useless architecture based on sending data by forcing pigeons to poop in a certain way over the course of a year
03:15:25 <elliott> ...but everything can be optimised!"
03:24:10 * copumpkin challenges oerjan or j-invariant to a duel at midnight eastern
03:25:46 <elliott> turns out headache are superpowers
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03:32:42 <Sgeo> I just thought of an idea for a language that may be more difficult to program than malbolge. It's based on Go.
03:32:54 <Sgeo> [Ok, that might be a slight exaggeration]
03:33:33 <elliott> i blame copumpkin for this headache
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03:34:15 <Sgeo> I was hoping for someone to say that the Go language is easy
03:34:45 <oerjan> Sgeo: i was assuming you meant the game here...
03:34:54 <oerjan> i mean we're trying to be _esoteric_ here...
03:34:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, I did. I was hoping people didn't realize
03:35:25 <elliott> copumpkin: fuckin' faught me
03:36:03 <oerjan> GIVING HEADACHES TO PESKY TEENAGERS MAY BE BANNABLE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED:
03:36:36 <elliott> oerjan: btw i'm goin gto murder you for that pesky remark, just as soon as i can do anything without excruciating pain
03:36:40 <elliott> maybe i'll turn the lights off
03:36:55 <Sgeo> Remove the ko rule. Take two Go bots. Have them play eachother. The programmer gives a starting board (arranges stones) such that the bots will play in the manner that the programmer wants. To do I/O, there are specific areas on the board that should be in specific shapes by specific colors
03:37:40 <Sgeo> elliott, don't IRC with a headache? </hypocrite>
03:37:45 <Sgeo> elliott, take some medicine?
03:37:51 <elliott> i don't see how not ircing would help
03:38:06 <elliott> i could go and get some ibuprofen, but i'm not sure where it is, and downstairs is a long way away
03:38:15 <elliott> the lower light seems to be helping a bit, i'll drink some more
03:42:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `ENTERTAIN'Not in scope: data constructor `ME'
03:42:12 <elliott> how do you do it in \bot again
03:42:23 <oerjan> did they add a way to do that?
03:42:50 <Sgeo> elliott, write some code for my esolang
03:43:01 <Sgeo> That's not currently well-specified enough to code for!
03:43:17 <elliott> Sgeo: no it actually sounds vaguely interesting, which doesn't fit my mental image of you :)
03:43:29 <elliott> oerjan: there's a way to do it for djinn isn't there?
03:43:30 <oerjan> @let data TestData = Testing1 | Testing2
03:43:34 <elliott> copumpkin: you're the HASKELL GUY, you tell us
03:44:03 <Sgeo> I have no clue how one would go about actually using the language
03:44:10 <Sgeo> No pun intended
03:44:15 <oerjan> doesn't @let actually add it to a module file? it wouldn't be too difficult to allow data too in there would it?
03:44:48 <lambdabot> undefine. Reset evaluator local bindings
03:45:06 <oerjan> and @undefine actually deletes _all_ of them iirc
03:46:03 <elliott> MWAHAHAHAHAHA NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST
03:46:17 <elliott> you shall all die because i am in pain
03:46:46 <elliott> i would care less if i could figure out WHY
03:46:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: all i recall is that deciding which of two perfect players wins a Go game on an arbitrary-sized board is supposedly PSPACE-complete
03:47:01 <elliott> yeah cuz gnugo is perfect :)
03:47:08 <oerjan> elliott: if it helps i just got some pain in my back
03:47:23 <elliott> maybe this is my punishment for being happy before
03:47:28 <Sgeo> I was assuming I'd have to go hunting for an appropriate bot. I should look into GnuGo
03:48:08 <Sgeo> How to program in the language depends far more on the bot than the actual game itself
03:48:56 <elliott> gnugo is the standard "open" one
03:49:10 <elliott> Sgeo: this would be far more elegant if you made the bots instead perfect players :)
03:49:19 <elliott> (and also 100% more unimplementable with the current state of the art)
03:49:27 <elliott> also easier to reason about, probably
03:52:05 <Sgeo> What if the perfect strategy turns out to have some completely nutty seeming moves?
03:52:23 <Sgeo> We could only guess at what a given program does
03:52:36 <Sgeo> Well, that's rather interesting, come to think of it
03:52:46 <Sgeo> It would also mean not writing a single line of code, though
03:53:01 <Sgeo> Which may be good, given my tendencies to put stuff down to look at the shiny
03:53:59 <Sgeo> Easier to reason about is a minus, though
03:54:14 <oerjan> well i presume the PSPACE-completeness proof constructs game situations for which determining who wins _is_ determinable if you can solve the original problem
03:55:04 <elliott> Sgeo: easier to reason about is a plus really, easy to reason about but impossible to actually use
03:55:07 <elliott> is like the holy grail of esoterica
03:55:49 <Sgeo> elliott, gravity does that
03:57:51 <Sgeo> The only real difference between PerfectPlayer-based and Gravity is that we can't know for certain that a given program does what we think it will do
03:58:08 <elliott> like oerjan said it's pspace
03:58:20 <elliott> i guess there is an algorithm?
03:58:48 <Sgeo> But the algorithm may be something that makes no sense whatsoever to current Go thought
03:58:58 <elliott> ima let oerjan take over here
03:59:04 <elliott> while i curl up more into this bed
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04:01:07 <oerjan> well to solve a pspace-problem it is completely permissible to search through all branches
04:01:26 <elliott> right obviously there is an algorithm
04:01:29 <oerjan> which means it's sort of obvious that Go should be in pspace
04:02:35 <Sgeo> The definition of the language would ... no it wouldn't. I was thinking it would have to be different, but probably the programmer would fill most of the board. They'd have to do that for GnuGo-based anyway, right?
04:02:44 <Sgeo> In order to reason about it effectively?
04:02:59 <Sgeo> I was thinking more along the lines of a few stones on the board, for some reason
04:03:39 <oerjan> i'd guess a few stones would mean it is completely impossible for _us_ to determine who has the win
04:03:53 <oerjan> so we can obviously not program efficiently with it
04:04:15 <elliott> i think ehat would help this headache
04:10:36 <Sgeo> It's not "who has the win" that I had in mind. It's "These stones get placed here to do X"
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04:11:06 -!- elliott has set topic: bro_mine.
04:11:11 <elliott> that was meant to be a nick
04:11:46 * Sgeo puts elliott to sleep
04:12:11 <Sgeo> elliott, feel better soon
04:12:13 <oerjan> except those who are blowers
04:12:16 <elliott> i hate you all and you should all die :)))))
04:12:25 <Sgeo> And sadly, at this point, I'm not a fucker
04:13:03 <elliott> if only katie a.t. the alluded-to-female whose name is constantly elongated believed that orange juice caused love instead
04:13:16 <elliott> ...i don't even remember what it says at this point...
04:14:31 <elliott> wow people actually use fvwm
04:14:50 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png http://i.imgur.com/6hJAm.png
04:15:27 * oerjan vaguely thinks fvwm was the wm on his last office linux machine
04:16:24 <elliott> yay there's a teddy bear on my desktop
04:16:37 <elliott> oh wow, the mouse cursor changes to a heart when you hover over it
04:16:40 <elliott> this is advanced magic shit
04:18:07 <elliott> this is what fvwm users are like http://www.xteddy.org/fvwmquiz.rbx
04:19:50 <elliott> oerjan: people, aren't tehy crazy
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04:23:14 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/f5fzt/what_books_should_i_read_to_get_up_to_speed_on/c1df2e9 this is the weirdest reddit post ever
04:23:18 <elliott> first its like reasonable advice
04:23:27 <elliott> here's how to do this thing you never asked about
04:23:39 <elliott> here's even more instructions you didn't ask for
04:23:51 <elliott> read the source code of this playlist i wrote for this occasion!
04:23:53 <elliott> you can see it's not malicious
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04:26:24 <elliott> oerjan: is there an analouge of fs=1:1:zipWith(+)fs(tail fs) for factoryalllle
04:27:29 <elliott> oerjan: yeah jst accept it
04:27:33 <lambdabot> [1,2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800,8...
04:27:35 <elliott> it is the only thing that gives me pleasure in this kind of state
04:27:41 <elliott> oh nice, i think i've seen that before
04:27:47 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
04:27:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t1] -> t'
04:27:54 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
04:28:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[t1] -> t'
04:28:08 <lambdabot> [1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
04:28:11 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800...
04:28:30 <elliott> > let fact = (scanl (*) 1 [1..])!! in fact 1000
04:28:31 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
04:28:36 <elliott> > let fact = (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !!) in fact 1000
04:28:37 <lambdabot> 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398...
04:29:20 <elliott> p00O0o)O)o0o0oo0oO)O)O))O)O)O)O)OO)))))))))))))PPPPPPpppppppq
04:30:17 <lambdabot> 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398...
04:32:35 <elliott> oerjan: but is the former fact not more efficient
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04:33:08 <oerjan> well if you look at more than one value...
04:33:36 <elliott> oerjan: right, if you don't it's ofc equivalent
04:33:47 <elliott> oerjan: but the memoising function is preferable for the memoising reason
04:33:57 <elliott> oerjan: although it feels a bit upsettingly manual.
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04:34:30 <elliott> :t let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2) in fib
04:34:32 <lambdabot> forall t a. (Num a, Num t) => (t -> a) -> t -> a
04:34:46 <elliott> oerjan: can we transform this into the list-based fib?
04:35:01 <elliott> :t let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib (fibs!!)) [0..] in fibs
04:35:05 <elliott> > let fib _ 0 = 0; fib _ 1 = 1; fib me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib (fibs!!)) [0..] in fibs
04:35:06 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
04:35:24 <elliott> > let fib' _ 0 = 0; fib' _ 1 = 1; fib' me n = me (n-1) + me (n-2); fibs = map (fib' fib) [0..]; fib = (fibs!!) in fib 1000
04:35:26 <lambdabot> 434665576869374564356885276750406258025646605173717804024817290895365554179...
04:35:39 <elliott> that's really nice, i wonder what algorithms it is applicable to
04:35:44 <elliott> and if you can package this up as a generic function
04:36:09 <elliott> :t \f -> let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo
04:36:10 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Num a, Enum a) => ((Int -> b) -> a -> b) -> Int -> b
04:36:21 <elliott> @pl \f -> let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo
04:36:22 <lambdabot> fst . fix . (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . (flip ((,) . (!!)) .) . flip flip [0..] . (map .)
04:36:30 <oerjan> i think i've seen something like it called memoize
04:36:40 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but the point here is that the recursion is factored out
04:37:14 <elliott> @let memoFix :: ((Int -> a) -> Int -> a) -> (Int -> a); memoFix f = let foos = map (f foo) [0..]; foo = (foos!!) in foo
04:37:44 <elliott> > let fact' _ 0 = 1; fact' me n = n * fact' me (n-1); fact = memoFix fact' in fact 1000
04:37:53 <elliott> oerjan: this is cool, too bad it only works for Ints without some hackery
04:38:11 <elliott> > let fact' _ 0 = 1; fact' me n = n * me (n-1); fact = memoFix fact' in fact 1000
04:38:20 <elliott> i guess it is not so efficient then?
04:38:37 <oerjan> it will retraverse the list whenever looking up stuff
04:39:04 <oerjan> the direct list version can optimize because it always knows it needs the previous two values
04:39:38 <oerjan> a Trie may be somewhat more efficient
04:39:47 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but that starts getting heavy-duty and stuff
04:40:03 <elliott> sad that generalising something simple results in a complexity change :
04:42:43 <elliott> hm http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics says that _|_+1 must = _|_
04:42:47 <elliott> but that's not true with lazy naturals
04:43:25 <elliott> "Not all Functions in Strict Languages are Strict
04:43:45 <oerjan> it's still rather hard to avoid _either_ _|_+1 = _|_ or 1+_|_ = _|_
04:44:35 <elliott> oerjan: you can do it with lub I think
04:45:19 <elliott> lub [\Zero y -> y, \x Zero -> x, \(Succ x) y -> Succ (add x y), \x (Succ y) -> Succ (add x y)]
04:45:26 <elliott> oerjan: but then lub is magical! :)
04:45:44 <oerjan> uses concurrency i assume
04:45:58 <elliott> oerjan: yes, it's specified that your function must Obey Ze Rules
04:46:13 <elliott> oerjan: i.e., if two cases could apply (i.e. one of them isn't _|_), then they have to produce equal values
04:46:24 <elliott> oerjan: Lub is an experiment in computing least upper information bounds on (partially defined) functional values. It provides a lub function that is consistent with the unamb operator but has a more liberal precondition. Where unamb requires its arguments to equal when neither is bottom, lub is able to synthesize a value from the partial information contained in both of its arguments.
04:46:44 <elliott> oerjan: lub was used in that blog post that defined arithmetic on "data Omega = W Omega"
04:46:52 <elliott> where "zero = zero" and "succ = W"
04:47:02 <elliott> Where unamb requires its arguments to equal when neither is bottom, lub is able to synthesize a value from the partial information contained in both of its arguments, which is useful with non-flat types.
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04:49:34 <elliott> oerjan: based on http://conal.net/blog/posts/merging-partial-values/ it seems
04:49:58 <elliott> oerjan: hm what is that ~ he uses before the patterns?
04:50:15 <elliott> oerjan: great news!! my headache disappeared
04:50:56 * Sgeo dances for elliott
04:52:32 <elliott> oerjan: *Main> add one bot
04:52:34 <elliott> oerjan: http://hpaste.org/43387/lazy_conats
04:52:38 <pikhq> elliott: hąateīinisiyô!
04:52:57 <oerjan> elliott: ~ is lazy matching
04:53:01 <elliott> oerjan: how does that work
04:53:53 <oerjan> > case Nothing of ~(Just x) -> x; _ -> "hm..."
04:53:53 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <interactive>:(3,0)-(4,21): Irrefutable pattern failed for pat...
04:53:54 <pikhq> elliott: A lazy pattern match can't fail.
04:54:09 <pikhq> Well, it can, but that's _|_.
04:54:55 <oerjan> elliott: um that _was_ the intended effect
04:55:10 <pikhq> elliott: He was demonstrating that a failed lazy pattern match is _|_.
04:55:24 <oerjan> it is not checked that the value _is_ a Just until it's actually used
04:55:29 <elliott> *Main> mul two (add bot two)
04:57:32 <elliott> oerjan: http://hpaste.org/43388/lazy_conats_annotation?pid=43388&lang_43388=Haskell
04:57:34 <lambdabot> f &&& g = arr (\b -> (b,b)) >>> f *** g
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04:58:12 <elliott> oerjan: also "mul (add bot one) inf" = inf
04:58:28 <elliott> oerjan: although it piles on S's quite slowly :)
04:59:02 <elliott> *Data.Lub> (⊥,False) ⊔ (True,⊥)
04:59:02 <elliott> *Data.Lub> (⊥,(⊥,False)) ⊔ ((),(⊥,⊥)) ⊔ (⊥,(True,⊥))
04:59:46 * oerjan checks logs for unicode
05:00:04 <elliott> oerjan: didn't you fix your client? :(
05:00:23 <oerjan> it only shows european alphabets
05:00:35 <elliott> oerjan: i could help you fix that but i doubt you're bothered :P
05:00:48 <elliott> oerjan: hey you can implement a cond function that works like "cond _|_ x x = x" with lub!
05:01:20 <elliott> oerjan: condc x y = lubs [ if c then x else y, x, y ]
05:01:30 <elliott> oerjan: cond c x y = lubs [ (if c then x else y), x, y ]
05:01:38 <elliott> Your use of unamb in defining if' does not meet the required precondition (of information-compatible arguments). From a conversation on #haskell, I know you’ve come up with a really beautiful correct definition. I’d love to see you post the correct version for all to admire.
05:01:44 <elliott> i wonder what the proper solution is
05:02:30 <elliott> -- | Multiplication optimized for either argument being zero or one, where
05:02:30 <elliott> -- the other might be expensive/delayed.
05:02:30 <elliott> ptimes :: (HasLub a, Num a) => a -> a -> a
05:03:31 <oerjan> elliott: ah x and y may not be compatible even if c is non-bottom
05:03:39 <oerjan> i guess that's the problem
05:03:53 <elliott> oerjan: cond c x y = lubs [ (if c then x else y), if x == y then x else undefined ]
05:03:56 <elliott> oerjan: but that won't work on [1..] ofc :)
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05:04:08 <elliott> at least conal said luke (palmer) came up with a correct solution
05:04:20 <elliott> perhaps i could trawl the #haskell logs :)
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05:08:49 <elliott> oerjan: tell me to go in a minute
05:10:47 <oerjan> lubs [ if lubs [c, True] then x else y, if lubs [c, False] then y else x ]
05:11:07 <elliott> oerjan: lubs [x,y] == lub x y
05:11:43 <oerjan> actually can you use lubs on two incompatible values if you want the result to be bottom?
05:11:55 <oerjan> otherwise i think there's a problem there
05:11:58 <elliott> <oerjan> actually can you use lubs on two incompatible values if you want the result to be bottom?
05:12:25 <oerjan> rephrase: i don't think the above works if c is non-bottom
05:12:46 <elliott> the latter turns into True `lub` False, say
05:13:06 <elliott> oerjan: (if c then x else y) `lub` lubs [ if lubs [c, True] then x else y, if lubs [c, False] then y else x ]
05:13:17 <elliott> since if c=True and x is _|_
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06:00:48 <Ilari> More odd games with routing: Now two interfaces share an IP address...
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06:28:12 <zzo38> Some strange chess..... what if you are allowed to promote your pawns into pieces of opponent's color?
06:28:58 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing a chess problem based on that
06:29:54 <zzo38> It is on Wikipedia.
06:29:59 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke_chess_problem#Offbeat_interpretations_of_the_rules_of_chess
06:30:26 <zzo38> There is also the problem based on the rule, if you are allowed to castle with a rook that has just been added by promoting a pawn.
06:32:11 <pikhq> ... Castling with a rook that was just promoted from a pawn?
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06:40:17 <oerjan> http://i.imgur.com/xDtDL.jpg :D
06:46:23 <Sgeo> Someone should have used that in a tournament, if the rules of the time allowed it
06:48:09 <zzo38> Now it can be made a variant, with rules such as allowing to promote into opponent's pieces, even if you also make the rule that you are only allowed to promote to pieces which have already been lost.
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07:11:44 <coppro> the puzzle was how they got fixed
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10:36:48 <evincar> What's up in here these days?
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12:34:10 <Ilari> Wonder what the heck is going on with APNIC/IANA...
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12:58:50 <fizzie> Perhaps the speculation is true and they're planning a big party, with those party hats and noise-makers and so on.
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13:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The New Scientist has used Kurzweil's estimate for the Singularity as fact.
13:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I suppose I shouldn't have been expecting standards that high anyway.
13:05:00 <Ilari> At least it isn't a 6 digit IPv6 address (from Fox universe)... :-)
13:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> They actually interviewed him and were uncritical of his whole life-extending crap.
13:07:20 <Ilari> Yeah, most life extension and health stuff is crap.
13:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so transparently obvious that Kurzweil is just desperately trying to hide from his own mortality by any means possible.
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13:24:28 <Ilari> Wonder what APNIC figures for today will be...
13:24:55 <Ilari> I think those will appear in few hours...
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14:46:27 <asiekierka> do you know of any 2-opcode, 0-parameter esolang?
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15:45:10 <Ilari> That's crazy low...
15:45:58 <Ilari> 2 weeks ago it was 2.01, so 0.77 in 2 weeks...
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15:56:18 <Ilari> Also, 3 blogposts in a row blaming wheat in Dr. Davis' blog... :-)
15:56:36 <Sgeo> Blaming wheat for IPv4 depletion?
15:56:52 <Ilari> Blaming wheat for various health problems...
15:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd have thought they taught you this in Farmingdale, Sgeo.
15:59:10 <Ilari> That rate is about 1.5 a month. APNIC will allocate about 4.80 in phases 1 and 2. That's sightly more than 3 months... Ouch.
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16:00:56 <Ilari> Would mean APNIC depletion in May (of course, not a serious model, but I have seen estimates even more pessimistic than that).
16:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought depletion was estimated to start in less than a month?
16:02:26 <Ilari> APNIC allocates those last blocks in few days at most. That date was about APNIC RIR depletion.
16:05:50 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder how much has APNIC allocated in December and January?
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16:10:44 <Ilari> 38 927 872 addresses (2.32 blocks)
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16:13:42 <Ilari> That would be about 1.2 blocks per month. Not quite as bad as 1.5 per month but that would still deplete the pool in about 4 months...
16:16:43 <Ilari> Note: The current predicted time to first RIR depletion is about 8 months... This would amount to exhaustion in half the time.
16:18:00 <Ilari> And note: No discontinuous run-on-the-bank after IANA depletion is assumed...
16:18:28 <Ilari> (the biggest reason for this: "We can't model panic.")
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16:53:53 * Phantom_Hoover downloads the Windows version of a program because the Linux version crashes due to shared library problems.
16:54:05 <Sgeo> I'm a but upset about opendylan failing that nowww test
16:54:26 <oerjan> better nowww than laterrr
16:55:03 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, try going to opendylan.org. Then try www.opendylan.org
16:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, was that to the thing about shared library thing?
16:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if that is not an open-source version of Bob Dylan I will be severely disappointed.
17:10:01 <ais523> according to Slashdot, the Internet's been shut off in Egypt
17:10:06 <ais523> and I haven't found a comment contradicting that yet
17:10:10 <ais523> that's pretty shocking
17:13:04 <Sgeo> The Inglip people just _had_ to make a wiki on Wikia
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17:28:33 <Sgeo> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-1350817/Le-Whaf-Now-theres-food-dont-eat-INHALE.html
17:29:01 <Sgeo> I was _so excited_, then "Best of all, each breath (or whaf) contains hardly any calories so you can have as much as you like without gaining weight.
17:29:08 <Sgeo> FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
17:30:32 <asiekierka> by two opcodes i probably meant syntatic elements, yes
17:30:46 <ais523> hmm, http://www.renesys.com/blog/2011/01/egypt-leaves-the-internet.shtml is posted about the Egyptian internet loss by people who apparently know what they're doing
17:30:57 <asiekierka> i'm trying to make a computer in my own game, 64pixels
17:31:31 <asiekierka> and due to 2D limitations i can only have two "instructions"
17:31:56 <asiekierka> i was thinking of this, for example: "] move right, skip next command if byte at pointer is 1" and "* flip bit"
17:32:46 <Ilari> Now that's fail...
17:32:53 <cheater-> ais523: i'm reading a story by von daeniken, it has a protagonist named ais
17:32:59 <Ilari> (the one Sgeo posted)
17:33:06 <ais523> cheater-: probably coincidence
17:33:12 <fizzie> ais523: It's been everywhere in the "regular" news; also funny quote from an interview of the Renesys folks: "'We have enough Internet here [in the US] that we can have our own Internet,' he told the AP. 'If you cut it off, that leads to a philosophical question: Who got cut off from the Internet, us or the rest of the world?'"
17:33:46 <ais523> you end up with two internets, obviously
17:33:55 <ais523> the notion of an internet doesn't imply it's necessarily singular
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17:34:15 <ais523> it's just that if you have more than one, it's likely that they'll be connected, so you generally have one big Internet as a result
17:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, FFS, It's the _Mail_. Its journalistic standards are second to all but, say, your average school magazine.
17:34:31 <ais523> OK, although I'm a bit busy in real life
17:34:42 <Sgeo> <Hugh Laurie> We're talking about multiple Internets.
17:34:46 <Ilari> Ah, yeah. Having at least one root server and servers for your ccTLD and most important gTLDs is enough...
17:35:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I just want to know why they weren't wondering, if it's how people eat in the future, where they get what they need to survive from
17:35:43 <ais523> Ilari: I think you can have an internet even without DNS
17:35:51 <ais523> all you need is a global routing table that scans multiple networks
17:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, they don't think. I am surprised that they even write.
17:36:24 <calamari> Gregor: remember that video you posted a long time ago with the bears crossing the street (cyriak cycles)? well my son remembered it and watched to watch it again, you seem to be dialed into the 5yr old mind.
17:37:33 <fizzie> ais523: OED subscribes to the "an internet; the Internet" theory: "internet, v. intr. Originally, esp. of networks: to be connected together. Later: to be connected to the Internet; to communicate using the Internet. Also trans.: to connect to the Internet or an internet."
17:37:49 <Ilari> Of course, having DNS helps...
17:38:23 <oerjan> Gregor's loyal army of remote controlled five year olds
17:38:35 <oerjan> basically we are doomed
17:39:14 <fizzie> And for the noun: "Originally (in form internet): a computer network consisting of or connecting a number of smaller networks, such as two or more local area networks connected by a shared communications protocol; spec. such a network (called ARPAnet) operated by the U.S. Defense Department. In later use (usu. the Internet): the global computer network (which evolved out of ARPAnet) providing a variety of information and communication facilities to its users, a
17:39:15 <fizzie> nd consisting of a loose confederation of interconnected networks which use standardized communication protocols; (also) the information available on this network."
17:39:30 <Ilari> Hey, nutrional defiencies are already rampant (basically the only one that isn't deficient is calories, unless you are on diet)... :-)
17:40:11 <fizzie> Anyway, if you insist going by the first definition, you most likely have "the internet" now in Egypt too; I find it rather unlikely there wouldn't be at least two networks still connected to each other there.
17:41:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: IRC is better for gaining info than the Internet, in many cases
17:41:38 <ais523> e.g. if I want to know about IPv4 depletion, asking Ilari is likely to give more up-to-the-minute and precise information than trying to find it on Google
17:42:03 <ais523> fizzie: apparently there aren't, though; not only is the Internet cut off, but so are mobile phones
17:42:40 <fizzie> ais523: I'm pretty sure there's still at least one company that has two LANs in, say, two floors of a building, and a network in-between.
17:43:14 <ais523> fizzie: ah; although, don't companies normally have just the one LAN?
17:43:28 <ais523> to me, internet really implies networks connected at the BGP level
17:43:44 <fizzie> I guess it again depends on how L you define the LAN.
17:44:32 <fizzie> At least some sort of a large university campus might have rather separate networks in there.
17:45:09 * oerjan subtly hints to ais523 that IRC is part of the Internet
17:45:23 <Sgeo> oerjan, ISIDTID?
17:45:25 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's still geographically pretty local, assuming the operators have cut all their per-customer-dedicated-link routings.)
17:45:33 <ais523> oerjan: I meant to say the Web
17:45:40 <ais523> and messed up due to the subject of conversation
17:45:44 <ais523> I'm well aware of the distinction
17:45:59 <Sgeo> oerjan, you don't know what ISIDTID means?
17:46:14 <Sgeo> I Say I Do Therefore I Do
17:46:32 <fizzie> "About 140 results" and all those look pretty Agora-centric.
17:46:39 <fizzie> It's certainly not what I'd call common vocabulary.
17:47:12 <ais523> I mean, it's a fallacy that's theoretically applicable anywhere, but generally only becomes relevant in nomics
17:47:14 <Ilari> And also, getting every nutrient and such one needs to survive from modern food is bit so and so...
17:50:07 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing a technical term for something similar
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17:56:04 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance
17:56:59 <ais523> hmm, I didn't realise the argument about whether those could be true or false had spread to Wikipedia too
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18:01:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: read the article to see a summary of the arguments
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18:30:30 <fizzie> Heh, with IPv6 enabled the FUnet (Finnish university network) file archive's HTTP frontend no longer works (well, or no-www fails, anyway): http://p.zem.fi/funet6 -- if you connect with v4, it redirects to www.; if you connect with v6, it ends up in an infinite redirect loop.
18:30:50 <fizzie> A bit of a shame, since www.nic.funet.fi works just fine with both ways of connecting.
18:32:34 <fizzie> I hear even some "consumer-grade" broadband router-boxes do 6to4 nowadays.
18:33:45 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6to4#Consumer_routers_with_6to4_support
18:33:52 <ais523> fizzie: and Windows Vista does Teredo, but it's off by default
18:37:06 <fizzie> Do they have a fancy anycast address for Teredo too, or is that a 6to4 exclusive?
18:38:11 <fizzie> FUnet has a 6to4 relay, I remember that's where my 192.88.99.1 connections went back when I was in the university student apartments.
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18:41:44 <fizzie> And they did the thing that didn't exist back then: an automatic system-thingie that lets you delegate the reverse-DNS zone corresponding to your 6to4 /48 block.
18:42:16 <fizzie> Although it seems to be "still in a testing phase" since 2004.
18:45:47 <Ilari> Hmm... Kernel IPv6 routing table is quite WTF...
18:47:36 <quintopia> RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone.
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19:07:33 <Ilari> Isn't there those very small alcoholic drink bottles that only hold few centiliters?
19:09:26 <pikhq> Makes sense for strong liquor.
19:16:01 <quintopia> < BestWorstAdvice> Hate being bothered with an Internet bill every month? Move to Egypt.
19:20:47 <fizzie> Ilari: Yes; there are 2cl, 3cl, 5cl sized bottles.
19:22:22 <Sgeo> Huh. Katie A.T. has something going on in her life, where I have something similar going on in my life that isn't less bad than what's going on in hers.
19:22:25 <Sgeo> That's a first
19:26:48 <fizzie> I think you just broke PH.
19:27:07 <fizzie> Soon the magic smoke will come out.
19:32:23 <Sgeo> Bad things in her life seem to correspond to things in my life that aren't as bad, or that shouldn't be. She, for example, has a very good reason that she doesn't drive. But this particular bad thing is just about as bad for me
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19:46:38 <pikhq> Omelettes are delicious. Especially when you just figured out how to make them by thinking about it for a bit.
19:47:20 <fizzie> You can't make them without killing a few people, I've heard. (From the internet.)
19:48:00 <pikhq> The mass murder is entirely optional.
19:48:12 <pikhq> But I'm pretty sure exceptionally delicious.
19:52:35 <Ilari> Yeah, stuff made from good ingredients tends to be much better than procesed crap... :-)
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20:21:00 <elliott> zzo removed my damn logs from the topic again
20:21:19 -!- elliott has set topic: Bromine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (Inasmuch as zzo's actions can be comprehended by the relatively sane.)
20:24:14 -!- ais523 has set topic: Bromine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://example.com.
20:28:44 <elliott> 13:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so transparently obvious that Kurzweil is just desperately trying to hide from his own mortality by any means possible.
20:28:44 <elliott> hm is kurzweil even signed up for cryonics?
20:28:51 <elliott> ais523: example.com: THE BEST LOGS
20:29:57 <ais523> I didn't say it was a log
20:30:53 <ais523> hmm, we should just make a one-off channel, say the content of example.com, and then never use it again that day
20:31:42 <elliott> example.com is a redirect now
20:32:02 <elliott> * Now talking on #example.com
20:32:02 <elliott> * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +n #example.com
20:32:02 <elliott> * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode +t #example.com
20:32:09 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:32:19 <elliott> maybe I should have /nick IANA'd :)
20:34:10 <elliott> IANA = Internet Assigned Numbers Authority :P
20:34:34 <ais523> ooh, example.com looks a lot funkier than it used to
20:34:42 <impomatic> Oh... nothing to do with number 6 then :-(
20:34:50 <elliott> ais523: I just said, it's a redirect
20:34:57 <elliott> heh oerjan doesn't know what ISIDTID means
20:35:16 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I like the implication that you /do/ need IANA's permission to use any domain except example.com and its relatives as examples
20:35:29 <elliott> ais523: well, you basically do
20:35:42 <elliott> I thought you mean, to use a domain name
20:36:28 <elliott> 19:00:04 <quintopia> RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone.
20:36:57 <elliott> 19:34:50 <Sgeo> Huh. Katie A.T. has something going on in her life, where I have something similar going on in my life that isn't less bad than what's going on in hers.
20:36:57 <elliott> 19:34:54 <Sgeo> That's a first
20:37:08 <elliott> also *Katie A.T. the Alluded-To Female, her name was extended by forceful deed poll
20:37:15 <ais523> is IPv4 exhausted yet?
20:38:26 -!- elliott has left (?).
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20:38:56 <elliott> does anyone know what you have to do to compile a gcc that will compile programs with another libc? hmm, I guess it might be able to do it without editing any spec files
20:39:09 <elliott> in particular, I want it to compile statically by default with uClibc
20:39:20 <elliott> I _think_ that you link with uClibc and its start files in the same manner as glibc
20:39:24 <elliott> so presumably just using it should work
20:39:27 <elliott> but the static-by-default thing?
20:40:31 <elliott> ah, http://bent.latency.net/bent/git/gcc-3.4.6/spec may hold the clue
20:40:36 <elliott> make BOOT_LDFLAGS="-static" bootstrap
20:41:01 <elliott> hmm... http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=6132
20:41:10 <elliott> don't think I need that patch, I'm going to use uClibc's libstdc++
20:42:17 <elliott> ais523: it's libstd(c++), not (libstdc)++
20:42:27 <elliott> uClibc++ is just uClibc's version of it
20:42:31 <ais523> elliott: indeed, the first is somehow scarier than the second
20:42:33 <elliott> rather than GNU's which most people use
20:42:38 <elliott> I think it ships with gcc, not glibc
20:42:38 <ais523> unless you actually intend to compile C++
20:42:48 <elliott> ais523: err, why else would I get the library?
20:42:54 <elliott> if not intending to compile C++?
20:42:55 <ais523> that's why I was scared
20:43:08 <ais523> I just naturally assumed that nobody sane would actually want to use C++
20:43:11 <elliott> ais523: because I'm a distributor, I have to compile other people's terrible software for the masses
20:43:16 <elliott> ais523: for instance, WebKit
20:43:24 <ais523> and thought it was more natural that you were using a C++ library for C by mistake, than actually compiling C++
20:43:28 <elliott> as such, I need a C++ compiler and a libstdc++
20:43:41 <elliott> no, such is the plight of the distributor
20:45:57 <elliott> I should try actually compiling gcc
20:46:07 <ais523> with custom patches, indeed
20:46:14 <elliott> ais523: I've done it too, but never cross-libc
20:46:28 <elliott> I want to compile gcc statically with uClibc so that it compiles programs with uClibc
20:46:30 <ais523> part of my build script runs the compilation halfway, then runs a Perl script over a generated Makefile to change it, then does the other half of the build
20:46:45 <elliott> Vorpal: how stable is the gcc 4.5 series?
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20:49:35 <elliott> Support has been removed for the protoize and unprotoize utilities, obsoleted in GCC 4.4.
20:50:08 <elliott> hmm: If a header named in a #include directive is not found, the compiler exits immediately. This avoids a cascade of errors arising from declarations expected to be found in that header being missing.
20:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, did you ever actually "release" that x86 BF superoptimisey compiler on the wiki?
20:50:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq's compiler isn't the best out there.
20:50:44 <elliott> esotope has far superior optimisation.
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20:51:09 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . m Joke language list; 08:29 . . (+10) . . Kraftfeld (Talk | contribs) (added BitZ, a BF variant with more freedom in graphics design)
20:51:20 <elliott> (2) FUCKING BF VARIANTS FUCK
20:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I thought he made it because esotope produces very optimised C, but that C was not compiled into very well-optimised C.
20:51:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, he made it because he was bored.
20:51:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: GCC and clang do wonders to esotope's C.
20:52:23 <ais523> I noticed it, looked like another BF derivative
20:52:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR him saying that it did all kinds of stupid things when compiled. Something to do with pushing something to the stack and popping it far more often than necessary.
20:52:26 <pikhq> elliott: Also, that compiler outputs assembly.
20:52:27 <ais523> I haven't looked at in detail, because
20:52:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not that I know of.
20:52:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I was complaining about GCC's output.\
20:52:48 <elliott> clang does a better job than gcc.
20:52:58 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also clang's, but to a lesser extent.
20:53:08 <elliott> And esotope's high-level optimisations are far more relevant.
20:53:26 <pikhq> Esotope's insanely awesome high-level optimisations are far more relevant than my reasonable low-level ones.
20:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Who votes that we make a Brainfuck derivative namespace on the wiki and sling all of the crap into there.
20:54:34 * pikhq can't even find the compiler any more. :(
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20:58:22 <variable> <elliott> 19:00:04 <quintopia> RT @thetorpedodog: IPv4 exhaustion party: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol and pretends to be surprised when it's gone. -> nope: everybody brings an EXTREMELY SMALL amount of alcohol to your friend's house and get really surprised when your entire class shows up
20:58:35 <Ilari> Current guess for the X-day: Monday 31st...
20:59:10 <variable> (ie - it was an experimental thing never designed for real world use :-) )
21:00:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Chlorine | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://example.com.
21:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> ONCE I HIT FLUORINE DO I GO AROUND TO ASTATINE OR DO I START GOING DOWN
21:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I decided that there was clearly a halogen theme going on and that I should continue it, without regard to the consequences.
21:03:27 <elliott> I thought you were making a Minecraft joke :D
21:06:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's worth pointing out that even I have a BF derivative
21:06:38 <ais523> but I think they're both interesting due to not obviously being TC
21:06:50 <ais523> and not obviously BF-complete, either
21:06:58 <elliott> huh, gcc is distributed in both monolithic and modular forms
21:07:31 <ais523> it used to be only monolithic
21:07:43 <ais523> but they started making it modular after clang
21:08:19 <elliott> I guess I just want gcc-core and gcc-g++, but I'll download the monolithic one
21:08:22 <elliott> less of a headache to start with
21:08:31 <Ilari> Haha... "Yeah, I'm sure the fires in the street across from the Hilton and sound of gunshots that Al Jazeera is live streaming on the web right now is all CGI and sound effects too."
21:09:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:12:44 <Ilari> "Especially when Egyptian state media releases statements like this: '1628: Egyptian state TV channel al-Misriyah plays down protests, saying they are peaceful, and quotes a local official condemning Al Jazeera TV for "misinforming" the public.'"
21:13:25 <ais523> I wonder how Al Jazeera got the video, if Egypt has locked down communication
21:13:49 <ais523> yep, that would make sense
21:14:05 <pikhq> Egypt has locked down domestic ISPs and is very much controlling domestic media.
21:14:20 <pikhq> Al Jazeera is out of Qatar.
21:14:42 <elliott> why did nobody tell me that making a Linux distro is difficult? :)
21:15:01 <ais523> journalists normally do have satellite uplinks
21:15:51 -!- SomeEnthusiast has changed nick to copumpkin.
21:17:42 * elliott idly wonders if gcc 3 was more stable than gcc 4 is
21:18:13 <elliott> gcc only supports out of tree builds, right?
21:18:46 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if it supports in-tree-subdirectory builds
21:18:53 <elliott> probably not, autohell sucks at those
21:19:14 <elliott> I wonder what gcc's NLS does
21:19:49 <quintopia> "Well, now that we will have all 6 million IPv4's from #Egypt available again. Lets procrastinate #ipv6 implementation?"
21:20:26 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if gold works well with static linking
21:20:29 <ais523> that joke's been made before in this channel
21:20:31 <copumpkin> individual universities have more than that
21:22:05 <elliott> does anyone know when gcc is going to start including c++ code?
21:22:24 <pikhq> quintopia: Hey, look, it's a day's worth!
21:24:50 <elliott> --with-boot-ldflags=-static
21:24:57 <elliott> that won't link with uclibc though
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21:38:59 <Sgeo> cheater-, you just missed it in #haskell
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22:27:15 <zzo38> The only other people in here who are interested in TeXnicard are the people who never type anything on here anymore but are still on here.
22:28:15 <elliott> zzo38: you removed my logs from the topic :(
22:28:42 <zzo38> elliott: I don't think so. I think they are still there.
22:28:51 <zzo38> quintopia: Can you write Egyptian hieroglyphics?
22:28:55 <elliott> When you set the topic you took them out.
22:29:07 <zzo38> elliott: Oops maybe I made a mistake.
22:29:49 <quintopia> herobrine forgives you and forgets you
22:30:11 <zzo38> quintopia: Can you type computer program in Egyptian hieroglyphics?
22:31:27 <zzo38> What is herobrine?
22:33:44 <ais523> that does the first set of logs in the topic
22:33:46 <ais523> clog does the second set
22:33:53 <quintopia> zzo38: not currently. make it happen.
22:36:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: how stable is the gcc 4.5 series? <-- hm. Some bugs I know of
22:37:11 <Vorpal> elliott, about the same. Just different bugs than 4.4
22:37:23 <elliott> 4.5 removed protoize/deprotoize though :(
22:37:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen code that works in 4.4 and miscompiles in 4.5. And I seen the reverse of that too.
22:37:49 <zzo38> What is protoize/deprotoize?
22:37:55 <elliott> zzo38: converts k&r/c89 prototypes
22:38:03 <ais523> Vorpal: is the code itself broken? or is gcc?
22:38:28 <Vorpal> ais523, in one case I'm fairly sure gcc is to blame. In the other case I have no clue. The other case works under gccc 4.5
22:38:48 <Vorpal> ais523, I found a matching bug report for the one that broke with 4.5. Last I checked the bug still had no comments
22:38:56 <Vorpal> and no I don't have the link handy
22:38:58 <ais523> Vorpal: to be more precise, protoize is meant to convert a k&r C file to C89, and deprotoize does the opposite, by replacing function declarations
22:39:01 <Vorpal> I just switched to clang
22:39:09 <Vorpal> ais523, I know what protoize does
22:41:21 <elliott> hmm, I'm going to try buildroot; compiling gcc with uclibc manually seems like a pain
22:41:26 <elliott> although i'm not sure buildroot can even do that
22:42:43 <elliott> --with-boot-libs=LIBS Libraries for stage2 and later
22:42:43 <elliott> --with-boot-ldflags=FLAGS Linker flags for stage2 and later
22:43:16 <ais523> elliott: isn't Vorpal in UTC+1?
22:44:12 <Sgeo> I wish I were a changeling so I wouldn't have to eat
22:45:34 <Sgeo> This would be the point where my dad and step-mom decide that I'm no longer able to distinguish fantasy and reality
22:47:05 <Sgeo> [A long while ago, they were saying something. I was trying to convey the point that I might not be perfectly rational, and it makes no sense to ... I don't remember. Anyways, I said "I'm not a vulcan" and my dad apparently thought that I thought vulcans are real
22:48:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, might I advise that you use the brick/brain transplant on them?
22:49:12 -!- BMG has joined.
22:49:57 <elliott> The famed Vulcan Brick/Brain Transplant.
22:50:20 <quintopia> also, you know, learn to like eating. as crazy as they are, you don't need to be crazy too.
22:50:44 <quintopia> (yes, I know that's a hard thing to do. no, I'm not trying to trivialize it)
22:50:50 <elliott> Theory: Sgeo's (step)parents are the actual worst cooks in the world.
22:50:56 <elliott> In the most literal sense possible.
22:51:28 <Sgeo> I'm the one who makes the pasta I eat at night
22:52:06 <quintopia> oh pasta. good choice. i could really go for a fresh light seafood pasta salad right now
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22:52:59 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> The famed Vulcan Brick/Brain Transplant. ← this is actually how they do the whole "logical" thing.
22:55:24 <Sgeo> "It's pretty ridiculous, don't you think? The two of us being outsmarted by a chunk of crystal?"
22:55:55 <Sgeo> Well, rouge cells in the body often seem to outsmart a whole lot of very intelligent people...
22:56:37 <quintopia> the revolution is being televised.
22:56:42 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:50 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:51 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:52 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:52 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:56:53 <elliott> Sgeo: CANCER IS NOT SMARTER THAN PEOPLE.
22:57:13 <Sgeo> elliott, well, the use of the word "outsmart" in the context used in the episode is similar
22:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Make sure you tell her that it is actually one of the few things that has been demonstrated to reyouthismootherate skin.
22:57:37 <elliott> I want to `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
22:57:43 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
22:58:04 <HackEgo> 283) <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
22:58:09 <HackEgo> 181) <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
22:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, then spin her an elaborate yarn about the cosmetics companies keeping it down to increase costs, and the FDA being bribed into advising against it.
22:59:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Under no circumstances mention that the actual reason it isn't used is because it is a fairly strong irritant.
22:59:35 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, why do you think I'm an asshole?
22:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, because I am an asshole and I have problems with dealing with the fact that other people think differently to me.
23:01:08 <elliott> Sgeo: She thinks Vitamin C cures cancer, this is even more innocuous than mocking homeopaths.
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I think he's asking me why I'd assume he'd do such a thing, which is a simple humour fail.
23:01:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hell, I approve of this plan :P
23:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, I really can't see Sgeo forgoing a relationship to make a (hilarious) point.
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23:04:33 <elliott> http://nibble.develsec.org/hg/toys/file/d4f38103fa4e/passman Spot the security hole.
23:06:32 <zzo38> This game I received in the mail a few days ago, it comes with eleven copies of the rules.
23:06:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's the fact that the unencrypted file is there until the user quits vim.
23:07:07 <elliott> Admittedly, nobody can read it, but if you have someone with your user account...
23:07:13 <elliott> (but without your GPG passphrase)
23:07:25 <Vorpal> elliott, "TMPFILE=~/.passmandb.$$" is an obvious issue in any case. Sure it is in the same user's dir
23:07:37 <elliott> Vorpal: why's that an issue? apart from what i mentioned?
23:08:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well, the collision risk in theory of another program creating that file. For example a malicious exploit of another software.
23:08:39 <Vorpal> you should never do temporary files that way
23:09:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Unfortunately I don't see a _good_ way to support saving with vim.
23:09:52 <pikhq> “The court also orders Hotz to "retrieve any Circumvention Devices or any information relating thereto which Hotz has previously delivered or communicated to the Defendants or any third parties." ”
23:09:52 <elliott> I don't think it can save to stdout.
23:10:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well why vim then
23:10:04 <pikhq> Yes, Geohotz is being ordered to remove data from the Internet.
23:10:09 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe vim isn't the right tool for that jobe
23:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: For looking at and editing a file?
23:10:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Emacs can't save to stdout either.
23:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but maybe this is the wrong solution for a password manager
23:10:45 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what I'm saying
23:11:03 <elliott> Because vim and Emacs have a simple deficiency that is annoying in more cases than just this?
23:11:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and every other editor I know apart from ed possibly
23:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, workable suggestions I see so far: fuse encrypted file system, specialised program for the task. Patch the editor
23:12:06 <Vorpal> elliott, heck you might be able to do this to the *scratch* buffer of emacs somehow
23:12:18 <elliott> (1) Encrypted file system would work, but then you could just use vim directly. I don't think they support every-FS-operation passphrases like this does.
23:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you are saying that to edit an encrypted file you need to mount an encrypted FUSE filesystem?
23:12:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not saying it is a good solution.
23:12:43 <elliott> joe, at least, can save to /dev/stdout.
23:12:44 <Vorpal> but one that would work
23:12:57 <Vorpal> elliott, hm but doesn't that point to the terminal
23:13:01 <Vorpal> elliott, where the user is editing
23:13:05 <Vorpal> otherwise editing might be hard
23:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal: You save-and-edit in one go.
23:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: You want it to read from stdin and save to stdout.
23:13:25 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
23:13:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and where do you see the file in the editor so you can edit it? /dev/tty?
23:13:48 <pikhq> He is also ordered to remove any form of data storage with these "circumvention devices" to court custody.
23:13:50 <elliott> Uhhh, you do realise that curses etc. don't look at stdin/stdout...?
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23:14:02 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I didn't know that.
23:14:05 <pikhq> I strongly suggest that he go and demand to be impounded.
23:14:06 <Vorpal> elliott, guess it makes sense
23:14:10 <ais523> elliott: sure? I thought curses did use stdin/stdout by default
23:14:12 <elliott> AFAIK they use /dev/tty exclusively.
23:14:14 <ais523> although you can point it anywhere
23:14:16 <elliott> If they don't, well, that's a bug.
23:14:30 <ais523> elliott: I'm writing a program atm in which I direct ncurses into a pipe
23:14:52 <elliott> ais523: most curses programs won't let you do that
23:14:57 <elliott> since they do all sorts of "foo is a tty" checks
23:15:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f87p6/what_is_your_most_controversial_opinion/?sort=controversial
23:15:36 <ais523> Vorpal: encoding ttyrecs from an unrelated format
23:15:45 <ais523> I need to convert it into a sequence of vt100 codes
23:15:49 <ais523> which is what ncurses does
23:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "Children should be driven to have an intense fear of adults." "Why?" "So that they will behave themselves."
23:16:19 <elliott> "That homosexuality is wrong, and is no more in-born than pedophilia." ;; this is hilarious because paedophilia /is/ born-in
23:16:31 <quintopia> people actually implement that policy with their kids :/
23:16:39 <elliott> (and also because the morality of homosexuality has nothing to do with whether it's born-in or not, but whatever)
23:17:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/f87p6/what_is_your_most_controversial_opinion/c1e3vuc?context=1
23:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, it pleases me that the controversial ones are all the bigoted ones.
23:17:40 <elliott> "I believe a mother should be able to kill their baby without any legal repercussions." <-- I am fairly sure that 90% of the posts in this thread are trolls.
23:19:21 <quintopia> here's one of mine that is controversial but not bigoted: babies are not people. they do not earn their personhood for many many months.
23:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, what do you define as the difference between "baby" and "person" in terms of rights, etc.
23:20:32 <quintopia> rights? babies have no more rights than pets.
23:20:46 <elliott> That's stupid and you're stupid. (<-- my reasoned opinion)
23:21:03 <quintopia> but they can have "potential rights" in expectation of the day when they become people
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23:21:51 <ais523> if you want a controversial opinion: people should never have any responsibilities at all, except the ones they take on them through choice
23:22:02 <ais523> people don't have a choice on whether to be born, thus they shouldn't be punished for it
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23:22:33 <elliott> ais523: isn't another way to solve that to offer suicide as a respectable option at every point?
23:22:47 <elliott> that way, people can avoid any responsibilities without repercussion, but society can stay mostly the same as it is
23:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, yes, but you do, inevitably, end up sponging off society at some point, and you need to make things break even otherwise you end up going to hell in a handbasket.
23:23:39 <quintopia> elliott: like the right to health insurance and life insurance etc. things that ensure they get the best shot at becoming people.
23:23:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: surely it's society's responsibility to not create people unless they can support them?
23:24:03 <elliott> quintopia: OK, so is it ok if I keep my baby on a leash?
23:24:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean a literal leash. 24/7.
23:24:31 <ais523> it's pretty common to avoid accidents with children near dangerous places like roads or trains
23:24:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it's illegal to keep a pet on a leash 24/7
23:25:01 <elliott> and quintopia said babies have only the same rights as pets apart from, uh, "potential rights"
23:25:36 <ais523> elliott: it probably /is/, actually
23:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you're perfectly entitled to keep your baby on a leash as things stand.
23:25:46 <ais523> pets are rarely leashed indoors, doing so might lead to trouble
23:25:54 <ais523> and apparently keeping a cat indoors 24/7 is a really bad thing to do
23:25:55 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I can believe that, but it seems an odd thing to have a law for
23:25:58 <elliott> unless it's forbidden by some generic law
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23:26:07 <ais523> elliott: generic animal cruelty laws, I think
23:26:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think that would count as child abuse, definitely
23:26:23 <ais523> being confined to a single location for too long is bad for the health of pretty much anything but rabbits and hamsters
23:26:24 <elliott> ais523: possibly, but if a pet is docile enough it might not even mind.
23:26:33 <ais523> (and hamsters need a wheel or something like that to practice running in)
23:26:35 <elliott> ais523: ha, rabbits are impossible to leash
23:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if it's just decoration, it's hardly child abuse.
23:26:45 <quintopia> in general i feel like if your baby is lithe and fast enough to get away from you and not come back when you're outside, a leash is perfectly acceptable
23:26:47 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I'm sure there's /some/ way
23:26:53 <elliott> ais523: they drag you around for two miles and then wriggle out
23:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, yeah, that's exactly what a lot of people do.
23:27:07 <ais523> do you know this from personal experience?
23:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's more with toddlers than babies because human babies suck.
23:27:17 <elliott> either it's too tight and they freak out and escape through the powers of magic, or they just hop out of it without thinking
23:27:25 <ais523> hmm, that's the first time I've laughed in over 24 hours, I think
23:27:27 <elliott> quintopia: I meant indoors.
23:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, my cat managed to get out of a collar somehow.
23:27:51 <quintopia> elliott: you would be stupid to do that. you can create fenced off areas indoors.
23:28:01 <elliott> quintopia: plenty of parents are stupid, abusive, etc.
23:28:04 <elliott> that's why babies have rights.
23:28:22 <quintopia> plenty of pet owners are abusive too
23:28:29 <elliott> quintopia: ok, here's a question: _why_ do babies not have rights in your view?
23:29:21 <quintopia> they do have rights. as many rights as any other living non-person.
23:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> More seriously, they obviously don't qualify for full human rights because most human rights don't actually make very much sense in the context of babies.
23:29:36 <elliott> quintopia: why do they not have the same rights as people?
23:29:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Eh... there are plenty of mentally retarded adults.
23:30:31 <quintopia> and i should hope those adults receive rights that make sense for them given their abilities
23:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, and upholding the freedom of speech of someone who is incapable of communication is not a very pressing issue.
23:30:55 <elliott> quintopia: give me an example of a people right that you wouldn't give to babbies
23:31:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Certainly. But there is no reason to _deny_ them such.
23:31:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, shouldn't they have a right to have people attempt to find a way to communicate with them?
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23:31:18 <ais523> many people in comas did end up being able to communicate eventually
23:31:18 <elliott> i don't believe marriage is a right
23:31:29 <ais523> elliott: what about the right of free association?
23:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it is according to the universal declaration.
23:31:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't agree.
23:31:37 <oerjan> elliott: the UN declaration says it is
23:31:59 <ais523> marriage is a special case, really
23:32:10 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: what about the right of free association?
23:32:28 <elliott> marriage is just a religious ritual that has become an ill-defined legal ritual
23:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> [[i think homosexuality is the same as pedophillia, zoophillia, necrophillia and the like. in all these cases, you cant help who or what youre attracted to. so why are the latter seen as disgusting? they are all "sexualities" as far as im concerned.]]
23:32:58 <elliott> Civil unions make sense, marriage doesn't; I'm fine with people getting married, but IMO it should be a matter of church.
23:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> They are actually incapable of seeing the difference between sex between two consenting adults and between adults and children, animals and corpses.
23:33:08 <elliott> And the government doesn't need any part in it.
23:33:21 <ais523> is necrophilia actually illegal, btw?
23:33:24 <elliott> All the legal benefits that marriage grants should be available to pretty much any group of more than one person.
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23:33:38 <quintopia> well, i don't really see anything immoral about necrophilia if the corpse consented before death
23:33:43 <ais523> not that it makes a whole lot of sense
23:33:58 <elliott> I don't see why the person's consent matters for necrophilia.
23:34:03 <elliott> it's not like there's a soul in that corpse.
23:34:18 <quintopia> elliott: it's a matter of respect for the person's friends and relations
23:34:18 <ais523> many people before their death care about what happens to their corpse afterwards
23:34:28 <ais523> hmm, should a person's corpse be considered one of their possessions, and not inherited?
23:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, yes, but good luck getting anyone else agreeing that corpses are lumps of meat with no special significance.
23:34:36 <elliott> ais523: I don't care what they care about
23:34:59 <elliott> ais523: would you let people set it up so that after they die, a vote is counted for a party they name every single election?
23:35:06 <elliott> after all, they probably care about what happens to the world after they're gone
23:35:11 <ais523> elliott: no, but specifically because of "party"
23:35:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it's a bit dickish to ignore someone's wishes after they die; surely you support the idea of wills?
23:35:24 <ais523> I think I vaguely agree with the idea in general, but not that implementation in particular
23:35:25 <elliott> ais523: OK, assume there's a perfect way for anyone to express their political preferences as a formula
23:35:35 <elliott> that can be given the election info to decide a vote perfectly
23:35:48 <ais523> really, what would be more useful would be to give yet unborn people the right to vote retroactively
23:35:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, certainly, but I don't think your corpse should be considered a possession.
23:36:00 <ais523> that'd help stop people screwing up the world for future generations
23:36:05 <ais523> but I can't think of any way to implement that at all
23:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Burial is incredibly wasteful, for one.
23:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Why is your corpse less yours than your house or your bank account?
23:36:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Shrug. I don't believe you own the air in your house.
23:36:49 <elliott> It's a bit of an arbitrary distinction.
23:36:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That was an abortive attempt at trying to explain myself.
23:37:14 <elliott> ais523: with voting machines written in Feather, obviously
23:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (I suppose you could own a bag of air, but if you let it diffuse into the atmosphere you've probably lost any right to it.)
23:37:31 <ais523> elliott: even Feather can't do that
23:37:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I kind of see corpses as part of your "environment" like air.
23:37:47 <ais523> I mean, what it would do would be to speculatively let history play out to see what the votes would be
23:37:59 <ais523> and then rewind history, apply the votes, and let it run again
23:38:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can you own the air in your house? (Assume the house is perfectly sealed.)
23:38:22 <ais523> and Feather isn't /that/ integrated with the real world
23:38:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And I don't see even then why your corpse shouldn't be yours.
23:38:34 <elliott> ais523: OK, first, reimplement the universe in Feather ...
23:38:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't really have much justification for it, tbh.
23:39:05 <elliott> Oh joy: [[Rape is seriously overrated. If it's nonviolent, it's just unwanted sex. If a woman is unable to physically resist, she can comply and endure the sex, possibly even try to enjoy it (although that's a stretch). She can leave, take a morning-after pill, and notify the police. It would definitely be an aggravating and nerve-wracking situation, but not one that's "traumatic" or that will "ruin your life".
23:39:06 <elliott> I especially hate it when rape is put on the same level as violent assault or murder, they are nowhere near on the same level in terms of the extent of damage and the permanence of it.]]
23:39:07 <elliott> Why am I reading this thread.
23:39:17 <quintopia> i say yes. let's let people seal their houses perfectly and build their own algae gardens to purify it and never let in any bad air
23:39:41 <elliott> quintopia: yes, and then cut off their phone line so that they have no communication with the outside world
23:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Then make health idiots pay for the uncontaminated air.
23:39:54 <quintopia> in the future, when pollution has destroyed the surface, it will be common :P
23:39:55 <elliott> hell, the hole that the cable goes through probably has tiny gaps!
23:40:08 <elliott> quintopia: An underground biodome is more likely :P
23:40:27 <quintopia> elliott: yea probs, but my way would make a better movie
23:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't hollow out a ten-metre cave over the course of an afternoon.
23:40:52 <elliott> "reddit: now available in kazoo form
23:40:52 <elliott> By popular demand, reddit kazoos are now available! We heard your thousands, nay, hundreds of calls for an official reddit kazoo. In fact, over the past few months it's become difficult to wade through the reddit feedback mailbox because it looks like this:
23:40:52 <elliott> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SMII3qiVCz8/TUHJGNApNLI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/0qQDe91RNSw/s1600/kazoofeedback.png
23:41:17 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> You can't hollow out a ten-metre cave over the course of an afternoon.
23:41:25 <elliott> the earth is going to be uninhabitable over the course of an afternoon?
23:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, there's a thread at the top of r/Minecraft stating that Mojang should sue them.
23:42:09 <elliott> They should stop using the logo and clarify that they're not official, but apart from that it's fine.
23:42:15 <elliott> Although using the texture pack is iffy.
23:42:32 <elliott> Hmm, their furnace texture is different, at least.
23:44:10 <elliott> Seriously though... [[Rape is seriously overrated. If it's nonviolent, it's just unwanted sex. If a woman is unable to physically resist, she can comply and endure the sex, possibly even try to enjoy it (although that's a stretch). She can leave, take a morning-after pill, and notify the police. It would definitely be an aggravating and nerve-wracking situation, but not one that's "traumatic" or that will "ruin your life".]]
23:44:22 <elliott> I am unable to comprehend the moronicness required to make that statement.
23:44:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OH GOD THIS ONE IS THE WORST
23:45:10 <elliott> [[That Oasis > The Beatles]]
23:45:27 <elliott> I want to report that comment
23:45:57 <quintopia> eh, there are a lot of bands better than the beatles. oasis are good competitors at least, though i can't say I'd say that
23:46:07 <elliott> oasis are a terrible, terrible band.
23:46:13 <elliott> I don't even like the Beatles that much, but come on.
23:46:30 * Phantom_Hoover has never heard one of their songs, but hates them on general principle.
23:46:30 <elliott> Oh goody, they broke up. I wasn't aware.
23:49:39 <pikhq> elliott: "Rape is seriously overrated", eh?
23:49:45 <pikhq> That's pretty retarded.
23:50:25 <ais523> pikhq: the sentence itself isn't retarded, because as Phantom_Hoover pointed out, it's ambiguous and the natural meaning isn't an insane opinion at all; but the paragraph itself is atrocious
23:50:28 <quintopia> haha. pretty retarded. good one. understatement is an underestimated form of humor
23:53:34 <elliott> no, there is no limit to my tastelessness, thank you for asking
23:54:48 <quintopia> rape? you mean rape me? the nirvana song? yeah probably was
23:55:42 <Sgeo> Yes, Bashir, it's 100% A-OK to just talk about your patients medical stuff while identifying them by name
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23:56:57 <elliott> I think Sgeo is going to ruin DS9 for me.
23:57:32 <elliott> ais523: hmm, i have this shell script that's sourced by stuff on the system, but it could be installed into any one of a number of places
23:57:43 <elliott> ais523: if it were just a program, I'd just use its name, and rely on $PATH
23:57:49 <elliott> ais523: but it's not, it's something other shell scripts source
23:57:55 <elliott> any ideas how to avoid making people specify the full path?
23:58:09 <ais523> doesn't source respect $PATH?
23:58:21 <ais523> if not, you could probably make it somehow
23:59:22 <elliott> ais523: problem is, it would be useless to call this program from the command-line
23:59:25 <elliott> so it's cluttering the path a little
23:59:39 <ais523> that's a pretty weird problem you have
23:59:59 <ais523> you need something that works exactly like $PATH except it doesn't work like $PATH at all
00:00:22 <Sgeo> elliott, you haven't seen all of DS9?
00:00:29 <Sgeo> Where are you, so I can avoid spoiling you
00:00:32 <elliott> Sgeo: no, I haven't; but I meant ruin my enjoyment
00:00:51 <elliott> I've seen the last season iirc, so you can't really spoil me
00:00:57 <elliott> ais523: I need something like $PATH but for non-command-line-tools
00:01:06 <elliott> ais523: sort of like $LD_LIBRARY_PATH
00:01:10 <elliott> ais523: except it's... $SHELLPATH
00:01:11 <copumpkin> elliott: omg look at what glguy posted in #haskell
00:01:42 <copumpkin> <glguy> If there are any Minecraft players here, I've been toying around with a Haskell project http://www.github.com/glguy/minecraft-proxy
00:01:51 <elliott> fizzie: I SUGGEST IMMEDIATE LEGAL ACTION.
00:05:01 <fizzie> I stupidly forgot to patent the technology. :/
00:05:21 <ais523> how did Minecraft end up so popular anyway?
00:05:33 <elliott> ais523: because it's a good game, despite all its flaws
00:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/fa6fs/i_heard_notch_wanted_to_add_another_realm_like/c1efi59
00:07:08 <elliott> copumpkin: the reason I didn't link in-channel is because of //goto
00:08:36 <elliott> copumpkin: it can crash servers :)
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00:19:17 <ais523> elliott: I thought, only when you use it
00:19:33 <ais523> the really ironic thing is, Minecraft definitely qualifies as an esolang
00:19:37 <ais523> so I'm not even convinced it's offtopic here
00:19:42 <ais523> maybe we should add it to the wiki
00:19:52 <ais523> along with Dwarf Fortress
00:20:16 <elliott> ais523: "only when you use it"?
00:20:35 <ais523> elliott: wasn't it you who crashed the server via /goto?
00:21:05 <elliott> ais523: PH is the one who crashed the reddit server with it :)
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00:22:18 <ais523> perhaps a /travel could be useful, equivalent to NetHack's _ or Crawl's control-G
00:23:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Entirely possible if someone actually writes a pathfinder for it.
00:23:21 <elliott> fizzie: how did you work around the zlib truncated chunk updates?
00:23:29 <elliott> ais523: part of MC's appeal is how manual it is
00:23:51 <elliott> mcmap commands start with two /s to avoid clashing
00:23:58 <ais523> oh, I assumed you'd overescaped by mistake
00:26:08 <oerjan> avoid clashing by slashing
00:26:51 <elliott> <glguy> I found that the server will let you place blocks wherever
00:26:51 <elliott> <glguy> it doesn't check that you are in range or that you aren't just placing against air
00:27:00 <elliott> fizzie: we were wondering about that
00:27:41 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I use the same zlib decompression style as openjdk (which doesn't finalize and therefore won't fail if it's just the checksum that is truncated), and I also accept truncated updates as long as the chuck data (first two fifths) is there.
00:28:00 <fizzie> Usually it doesn't blow up so much that this would be a problem.
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00:29:48 <oerjan> isn't game servers trusting their clients too much like, the oldest way to be easily cheated ever
00:30:23 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/KM74P.jpg <-- this is the stupidest thing ever
00:31:51 <elliott> i can't think of anyone who would say yes
00:32:05 <elliott> apparently that's from Chuck Klosterman
00:32:09 <elliott> who reddit says is an idiot
00:32:20 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some kind of obscure ethics philosophy that implies it
00:32:34 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes. The philosophy of "Fuck you".
00:32:45 <pikhq> This is actually astoundingly common.
00:33:05 <oerjan> pikhq: well _that_ philosophy makes it redundant to mention that it's hitler, doesn't it
00:33:08 <elliott> some people think that revenge is more important than justice
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00:33:17 <elliott> so, making Hitler less happy is inherently good
00:33:23 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, yes it does.
00:33:25 <elliott> (even though he hadn't /done/ the awful things he did yet at the time)
00:34:03 <pikhq> elliott: By that point he was Chancellor of Germany.
00:34:09 <elliott> had he killed any jews yet
00:34:43 <elliott> the more interesting variant i've heard is "Say Hitler was still alive. You can decide whether Hitler spends the rest of his life in a utopian paradise, completely happy, with his every need catered to, living in absolute luxurious bliss. Do you?" (I forget what the alternative was)
00:34:44 <oerjan> elliott: that philosophy + a little time travel could lead to a nice little genocidal closed time loop
00:35:46 <pikhq> The Holocaust didn't start for a few more years...
00:35:53 <oerjan> elliott: hm. my ethical philosophy implies that i _should_ send hitler to paradise.
00:35:55 <ais523> elliott: rather depends on what "his every need" is
00:35:59 <Sgeo> coppro, what about respecting a person regardless of their beliefs, rather than respecting the belief itself?
00:36:07 <pikhq> He *was* de facto dicatator, though.
00:36:11 <elliott> ais523: just imagine a wonderful paradise resort
00:36:32 <ais523> elliott: I mean, would he be allowed to commit genocide, if he felt a need to do that?
00:36:43 <oerjan> elliott: i didn't expect you to agree on that :D
00:36:48 <elliott> ais523: As I said, it's perfect -- he would have absolutely no desire to commit genocide.
00:36:49 <pikhq> s/dicatator/dictator/
00:37:01 <ais523> elliott: doesn't that imply that he's been brainwashed?
00:37:19 <elliott> ais523: The resort was created based on every one of his beliefs.
00:37:24 <coppro> Sgeo: I mean respecting the right to hold the belief
00:37:24 <elliott> There are no Jews there, for instance.
00:37:33 <coppro> rather than respecting the content of the belief
00:37:40 <elliott> oerjan: Hitler can never repay his debt to society, so it's basically a case of "make Hitler happy" vs. "don't make Hitler happy", and obviously more happiness for a sentient being wins out in that case
00:37:41 <pikhq> ais523: Not really. He could just be convinced that the resort is entirely run by Übermensch in his honor.
00:38:05 <elliott> ais523: if it makes it easier, you can imagine that it's a perfect virtual reality
00:38:15 <elliott> filled with philosophical zombies emulated by an AI :)
00:38:22 <elliott> (note: i don't believe in philosophical zombies)
00:38:25 <elliott> (but it's called a thought experiment)
00:38:34 <elliott> i.e. even if he did want to commit genocide, no sentient being would die
00:38:34 <ais523> elliott: the thing is, I find the hypotheticals hard to follow
00:38:39 <Sgeo> I think... I may have indicated to her that there are beliefs that I don't do that for, but that her beliefs aren't those
00:38:41 <oerjan> only philosophical zombies believe in philosophical zombies
00:38:45 <ais523> I can't work out whether that would be a blessing or a curse
00:38:50 <elliott> ais523: ok, let's completely abstract the resort away
00:39:06 <Sgeo> [I got somewhat hysterical when I mistakenly thought that she believed that medicine should be ignored in favor of prayer. This was a while ago]
00:39:11 <elliott> ais523: You can either make Hitler happy forever completely separated from society, or not. Do you?
00:39:15 <ais523> we can simplify it by saying that I don't believe in revenge
00:39:26 <ais523> which I think answers the question without having to establish what the question actually is
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00:40:32 <ais523> <Ben Olmstead> I think Malbolge needs an update. I may write Visual M++ 2008 Extra Ultimate Edition if I'm feeling bored some weekend.
00:40:40 <elliott> ais523: now, I think you'd find that the vast majority of the general public would disagree
00:40:55 <elliott> revenge is awfully and sadly popular
00:40:58 <ais523> elliott: that wouldn't surprise me
00:41:05 <elliott> see for instance: the entire justice system (moreso in the US)
00:41:32 <ais523> I mean, you might not want to do that if it had other negative effects; for instance, if it inspired people to go around committing genocide because they thought they'd be rewarded the same way as a result
00:41:34 <oerjan> ais523: wait Ben Olmstead is still around?
00:41:40 <ais523> oerjan: it's an old comment
00:41:44 <ais523> I assume he still exists, anyway
00:42:00 <ais523> date was "03/02/07", unfortunately I'm not sure of the notation
00:42:00 <Sgeo> oerjan of FRC fame is still around?
00:42:17 <ais523> oh, must be mm/dd/yy because otherwise the dates here wouldn't be in sorted order
00:42:35 <oerjan> Sgeo: well i hadn't seen anything new by olmstead last i checked... although i don't recall if i checked very carefully
00:42:35 <ais523> <oerjan> Future rules must not exist.
00:42:51 <ais523> oerjan: see, I can quote you from old FRC from memory
00:43:06 <oerjan> ais523: hm rings a very vague bell, did that get declared invalid
00:43:23 <ais523> oerjan: I think so, but you were platonically incapable of writing any valid rules that round
00:43:45 <ais523> the person who actually won did so unintentionally
00:43:52 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't remember the number, but the theme was "win at all costs"
00:44:11 <Sgeo> I remember seeing that summary, I don't remember reading what the archives said
00:44:25 <ais523> and there was an overrule for the round stating that any posts to the mailing list counted as rule submissions, also that any invalid rules at all disqualified you from the round
00:44:38 <Sgeo> ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/35
00:44:48 <Sgeo> "Win at Any Cost"
00:44:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:45:07 <Sgeo> 'A record breaking round. The meanest round in FRC history, the round with most proposals, and also the round with the highest number of participating members (thanks to Stephen).'
00:45:26 <Sgeo> Does FTP offend ais523?
00:45:55 <oerjan> i wouldn't think so, where else would _he_ have read it...
00:46:15 <oerjan> i suppose someone might have mirrored them elsewhere
00:46:49 <Sgeo> I can't find the quote
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00:47:28 <elliott> hm maybe i can reel oerjan back into agora via FRC
00:49:30 <Sgeo> oerjan was an Agoran?
00:49:55 <elliott> http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/agora-horoscope/
00:50:10 <elliott> although i think he was around in like 1994
00:50:13 <elliott> oerjan knows more than I do :P
00:50:20 <elliott> and in turn, Registrar probably knows more than oerjan
00:50:22 <Sgeo> Was that before or after ISIDTID was defined?
00:50:27 <oerjan> i joined a couple months after it started
00:50:35 <elliott> ISIDTID is like a mid-2000s invention!
00:50:36 <oerjan> and was a member of nomic world before that
00:50:54 <elliott> oerjan: but did you yell at lindrum????
00:51:11 <Sgeo> I took a glance at Agora around 2005 or so
00:51:35 <Sgeo> Didn't get into it until after Canada ceased to be
00:51:50 <Sgeo> I think elliott brought me into Canada
00:51:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: i cannot find the quote either
00:52:08 <Sgeo> We should find logs1
00:52:33 <elliott> most of it was just Vorpal ruining everything :)
00:53:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: grepping implies "should not exist" does not exist in that archive
00:54:39 <elliott> oerjan: btw ISIDTID = I Say I Do Therefore I Do, it's an Agoran idiom
00:54:45 <elliott> oerjan: e.g. someone posting "I win."
00:54:47 <Sgeo> elliott, I meant of #esoteric hearing of IRCnomic
00:54:52 <elliott> that's an example of ISIDTID
00:54:54 <oerjan> elliott: someone already said that
00:54:59 <elliott> Sgeo: um ihope mentioned it right before I entered
00:55:12 <elliott> oerjan: there's also ATEOISIDTIDWHPAFALT
00:55:24 <elliott> oerjan: "A typical example of "I say I do, therefore I do", which has plagued Agora for a long time.", first said by Kelly
00:55:30 <elliott> (note: nobody actually says that :D)
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00:56:06 <elliott> oerjan: wait, did NttPF/TTttPF exist in your time?
00:56:37 <elliott> oerjan: ("Not to the Public Forum" i.e. you posted to agora-discussion, you dummy, and "This time to the Public Forum" (said when quoting an NttPF'd message to have it take place))
00:58:02 <Sgeo> I'd love to see someone NttPF in ##nomic
00:58:04 <elliott> they're making a documentary about Turing? great!
00:58:18 <elliott> Sgeo: well ##not-a-cow was an Agoran Public Forum for all of a few hours
00:58:25 <Sgeo> I just thought of something inappropriate I could have said
00:59:02 <oerjan> i didn't realize there were full mailing list digests there as well
00:59:21 <elliott> oerjan: can I convince you to subscribe to the Agoran lists as a daily digest? :D
00:59:22 <Sgeo> "elliott, apple?"
00:59:23 <oerjan> well "full" for when they were made
00:59:34 <elliott> Sgeo: that would be more inappropriate if it made any sense
00:59:34 <oerjan> elliott: absolutely not
00:59:51 <Sgeo> elliott, I got this idea in my head that Turing poisoned himself with an apple
01:00:12 <Sgeo> elliott, as in, I don't know if it's true
01:00:23 <Sgeo> I wasn't certain when I said it
01:00:28 <elliott> Sgeo: After being persecuted by the government for being gay and forced to take oestrogen (which caused him to grow breasts among other things).
01:00:35 <oerjan> "must not exist" does not exist in the digests either
01:00:42 <Sgeo> I did know that he comitted suicide
01:00:52 <Sgeo> Just didn't know whether "by apple" was some story or not
01:00:57 <oerjan> ais523's memory is FAULTY, i tell ya!
01:01:15 <Sgeo> And weights the same as a duck!
01:04:14 <oerjan> is the fact that i can grep the frc ftp archives directly on disk making me mad with power? only time will tell.
01:05:15 <oerjan> oh and the digests are not owned by my user, only the summary directory
01:09:24 <oerjan> spam saves lives! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8284279/Black-Widow-attempted-New-Year-Moscow-attack-but-blew-herself-up-by-mistake.html
01:11:59 <oerjan> elliott: that's it, it's refusing to work on a saturday
01:12:17 <elliott> i think i'm going to shoot myself
01:12:24 <elliott> that would solve this problem!
01:14:51 <elliott> http://www.mojang.com/notch/j4k2k6/dachon4k/ he stole asteroids ii
01:18:22 <elliott> this shit is seriously fucked.
01:18:53 <Gregor> HEY GUYS: Sociopath is htapoicos spelled backwards!
01:23:19 <elliott> Gregor: ...gonna follow up on that? :P
01:24:09 -!- elliott has changed nick to htapoicos.
01:25:19 <htapoicos> Wow... bash's "<<-" only supports literal tab characters.
01:36:46 <htapoicos> oerjan: WE MUST INVENT MORE OPERATORS QUICKLY
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02:08:15 -!- htapoicos has changed nick to elliott.
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02:11:42 <elliott> GermainAdrian: definitely _not_ programming
02:11:49 <elliott> not at _all_ the esoteric kind
02:12:10 <Gregor> According to the topic, it's chlorine.
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02:12:19 <zzo38> GermainAdrian: The purpose is various things, who knows
02:12:23 <Gregor> Apparently people in Europe fear chlorine.
02:12:41 <Sgeo> O'Brien Must Suffer!
02:13:01 <Sgeo> What about Bromine?
02:13:02 <oerjan> i don't fear chlorine. much.
02:13:09 <oerjan> as long as it's not in gas form.
02:13:09 <zzo38> GermainAdrian: The channel is for esoteric computer programming, but they discuss a lot of things in here of various things that have nothing to do with esoteric or with programming.
02:13:25 <Gregor> oerjan: Do you use bleach? I'm told that using chlorine bleach is an almost-exclusively American thing, but all my Euro friends are crazy.
02:13:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: Esoteric and chlorinated programming | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://example.com.
02:13:55 <Sgeo> Isn't Beach+Ammonia dangerous? Or is it something else that I'm thinking of
02:13:58 <GermainAdrian> as for chlorine bleach, ive heard its nice to mix it with some strong vinegar
02:14:11 <elliott> this channel is actually about cooking
02:14:16 <elliott> sorry if I mislead you GermainAdrian
02:14:32 <Sgeo> This channel is about cooking, which is why I am not in this channel.
02:14:45 <Gregor> Cooking with chlorine! Discuss.
02:15:10 <elliott> cooking people with chlorine
02:15:17 <oerjan> Gregor: hm my mom used to use chlorine bleach but i'm mostly going with something called JIF, don't really recall what it contains
02:15:52 <elliott> GermainAdrian: no but seriously, this channel is about esoteric programming languages.
02:17:38 <Gregor> oerjan: Do your washing machines have this crazy "cook" mode I'm told of? Maybe that's just some crazy German thing ...
02:18:20 <elliott> To...cook food in your washing machine?
02:18:37 <oerjan> Gregor: there's a 95 degree mode, yes. i only use it when the machine starts smelling (the manual said to do that to clean it properly) not for actual laundry
02:19:03 <Gregor> elliott: One of the German postdocs here claims that instead of using chlorine bleach, they use "cook" mode, which is apparently somehow just as good for whites. Idonnowtf.
02:19:22 <elliott> anyway chlorine on clothes sounds like an excellent stupid idea
02:19:28 <oerjan> ok it's not a mode it's a dial which goes up to 95
02:19:38 <Gregor> elliott: wtfman bleach = chlorine (usually)
02:19:58 <elliott> Gregor: well okay yes... i'm scared of bleach though
02:20:13 <Gregor> elliott: Wuss. I drink the stuff. Just to prove my might.
02:20:13 <elliott> bleach is for cleaning toilets and nothing else :P
02:20:14 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:20:33 <oerjan> Gregor: i understand one is _theoretically_ supposed to use it for white linen or underwear or something but i never go above 60 anyway
02:20:44 <oerjan> modern washing powder doesn't need it, i think
02:21:20 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:21:50 <oerjan> GermainAdrian: almost never serious
02:22:02 <oerjan> ok sometimes pikhq drags in political or law talk
02:22:41 <oerjan> i suppose you could call actual pasted programming code serious
02:24:15 <Gregor> Insanity: Trying to use debootstrap to capture a copy of wine and JUST its dependencies (not bash, coreutils, etc)
02:25:25 <Gregor> elliott: It appears not to be working :P
02:25:35 <elliott> Gregor: Why would you do that.
02:26:09 <Gregor> elliott: Because wine can't be compiled statically and qemu-usermode doesn't need bash.
02:26:32 <Gregor> (But wine has a fuckton of dependencies, so gathering them all = nightmare)
02:26:33 <elliott> Gregor: WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE, FOUL DEMON?
02:26:41 <Gregor> elliott: Windows binaries on Pandora :P
02:40:45 <elliott> thought you should all know
02:48:05 -!- Slereah has joined.
02:49:46 <elliott> this doesn't work why doesn't this work
02:50:10 <oerjan> i _told_ you kosher software doesn't work on the sabbath
02:54:21 <elliott> hm how do you get from foo.bar -> foo in bash?
02:59:36 <Sgeo> And there's now another person who seems to want me out of her life
03:00:17 <Sgeo> [Not that she was ever in my life really. She does have some good reasons to dislike me. But today, I spontaneously decided to apologize for something that.. wasn't one of those reasons]
03:01:02 <elliott> Sgeo: PLEASE GET A FUCKING BLOG
03:01:42 <quintopia> or, if you prefer, post stuff here, because we don't really mind
03:02:08 <Sgeo> If I were certain the religious one didn't want to talk to me again, I'd be miserable right now
03:02:09 * copumpkin uses it to post all sorts of shit his followers don't care about
03:02:15 <Sgeo> Not thinking "Hmm, maybe that was stupid of me"
03:02:51 <elliott> <quintopia> or, if you prefer, post stuff here, because we don't really mind
03:03:11 <elliott> pay ALL the attention to me!
03:03:16 <copumpkin> he's just bummed he can't use #esoteric as his own brainfarting ground
03:03:31 <elliott> psht i can do that even with Sgeo liveblogging
03:03:42 <elliott> Sgeo: go, tell me about your day, and I'll talk about my feud with gnu make
03:04:22 <Sgeo> elliott, I'd treat that the same way I'd treat anything that mildly, but not completely, bores me. Ask about interesting or weird stuff, and just ignore the rest
03:04:44 <elliott> so anyway gnu make fails at variable substitution and i hate it
03:04:48 <elliott> i'm thinking about killing it? it's possible
03:05:07 <Sgeo> Some things I have no intention of revealing on IRC, believe it or not.
03:07:07 <quintopia> why not? do we know too much about you already?
03:08:35 <quintopia> then feel free to tell us all kinds of stuff
03:08:45 <quintopia> if we don't know enough to trace it back to you, who cares?
03:08:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: There's thinks you don't reveal on IRC?
03:09:14 <Sgeo> Mostly past stuff, really
03:09:35 <Sgeo> quintopia, let's see. This channel knows my name, age, and where I go to college.
03:10:05 <pikhq> There's actually not a whole lot I feel like *not* mentioning on IRC.
03:10:14 <elliott> also the entire details of your relationship with katie at the alluded-to female
03:10:34 <Sgeo> elliott, "entire" LOL
03:10:43 <pikhq> Passwords? Some of my tastes in porn? Oh, and anything that's just too fucking boring.
03:11:08 <elliott> copumpkin: you haven't been paying enough attention!
03:11:20 <elliott> copumpkin: (Seth Gold, 21, Farmingdale SUNY, and she thinks vitamin c cures cancer)
03:11:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:12:00 <pikhq> I also have pictures of Seth Gold.
03:12:37 <elliott> quintopia: oh i just kinda noticed that
03:12:42 <elliott> i don't know if that's intentional though
03:12:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:12:47 <pikhq> Granted, it's not hard to get pictures of someone you've friended on Facebook.
03:13:10 <pikhq> It is, in fact, fucking easy.
03:13:27 <oerjan> shockingly, my nick is also related to my name
03:13:41 <pikhq> I would have never guessed that, Ørjan Johansen.
03:13:42 <Sgeo> elliott, it's intentional
03:13:55 <Sgeo> Seth Gold sEth gOld
03:13:56 <elliott> oerjan: indeed, Orkney Ecclesiastical Ruckus Johnny Ackermann Nullified
03:14:05 <elliott> Sgeo: wow that is the worst nickname creation ever
03:14:15 <copumpkin> I really like the intro sequence to mad men
03:14:23 <pikhq> elliott: Mine is from when I was 8...
03:14:53 <Sgeo> oerjan, I used tlhd as my currency in NationStates
03:15:44 <oerjan> > concat . transpose . words $ "Seth Gold"
03:15:58 <elliott> wow it works ... bash is terrible
03:16:02 <elliott> every variable is a global
03:16:08 <elliott> but that's not /bin/sh-compliant
03:16:23 <Sgeo> elliott, Perl was created BECAUSE Bash is such a terrible language
03:16:25 <elliott> copumpkin: this is sgeo http://twitter.com/DJSETHGOLD
03:16:36 <Sgeo> elliott, joke I heard
03:17:12 <Sgeo> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/4361/99979.aspx#99979
03:18:46 * Sgeo decides not to reveal his middle name
03:19:34 <copumpkin> there's the most awesome way to write transpose
03:19:39 <lambdabot> transpose ([] : xss) = transpose xss
03:19:39 <lambdabot> transpose ((x:xs) : xss) = (x : [h | (h:t) <- xss]) : transpose (xs : [ t | (h:t) <- xss])
03:19:58 <copumpkin> :t getZipList . Data.Traversable.traverse ZipList
03:19:59 <lambdabot> forall b (t :: * -> *). (Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t [b] -> [t b]
03:23:46 <oerjan> :t Data.Traversable.traverse
03:23:47 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *) b (t :: * -> *). (Data.Traversable.Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
03:26:03 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
03:26:20 <lambdabot> forall b c. [b -> c] -> [b] -> [c]
03:27:04 <lambdabot> forall a b c. [a -> b -> c] -> [[a]] -> [[b] -> [c]]
03:27:10 <quintopia> so, um, my nick? nothing to do with my name. at all.
03:27:18 <quintopia> not that i care if people know my name
03:27:28 <elliott> sure it is, if you replace quint with david and opia with r you get your name
03:27:39 <oerjan> copumpkin: there are probably some discrepancies if the matrix isn't rectangular
03:27:49 <lambdabot> forall b b1. [b -> b1] -> [b] -> [b1]
03:27:54 <copumpkin> oerjan: yeah, but I don't use weird things like that :P
03:28:00 <lambdabot> forall a b. [a] -> [a -> b] -> [b]
03:28:05 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) b b1. (Functor f) => [f (b -> b1)] -> [b] -> [f b1]
03:28:18 <elliott> and how did functor get in there?
03:28:20 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
03:28:22 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
03:28:36 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ((a -> b) -> b)
03:31:11 <quintopia> elliott: very creative substitution scheme
03:31:55 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
03:32:51 <oerjan> or well (a1 ->) to prevent collision
03:35:39 <Sgeo> Stupid YouTube descriptions spoiling eipsodes
03:36:11 <elliott> oerjan: oh wow, that's crazy
03:36:37 <elliott> > flip [\x -> x, \y -> y] 3
03:36:42 <elliott> > flip [\x -> x, \y -> y+1] 3
03:36:53 <elliott> oerjan: methinks the name "flip" becomes somewhat misguided at that point...
03:37:37 <oerjan> :t \f x -> fmap ($ x) f
03:37:38 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
03:38:09 <elliott> oerjan: made that more readable for you
03:38:16 <elliott> let flip = flip (fmap . flip id)
03:39:27 * oerjan hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/
03:41:28 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
03:41:44 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
03:42:54 <oerjan> flip, (.) and id are enough for pointlessing all linear functions, iirc. wonder if the Functor has any meaning for that
03:43:22 <oerjan> oh wait that's not linear
03:43:25 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => m (m a) -> m a
03:43:27 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t1 -> t
03:43:35 <elliott> :t \x y z -> x (y (x (y z)))
03:43:36 <lambdabot> forall t t1. (t -> t1) -> (t1 -> t) -> t1 -> t1
03:43:40 <elliott> :t \x y z -> x (y (x (y (y z)))) z
03:43:41 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> t1
03:43:42 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `x' is applied to too many arguments
03:43:49 <elliott> :t \x y z -> x (y (x (y (y z z) z)) z) z
03:43:50 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> t1
03:43:51 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `x' is applied to too many arguments
03:44:07 <lambdabot> forall a b a1. a1 -> a -> (a1 -> a -> b) -> b
03:44:47 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => f1 (f (a -> b)) -> f1 (a -> f b)
03:46:13 <lambdabot> forall b (f :: * -> *) a b1. (Functor f) => ((a -> f b1) -> b) -> f (a -> b1) -> b
03:49:44 <oerjan> if replacing (a ->) with [] that would give [[b] -> b]
03:50:41 <oerjan> which only fits empty lists i think
03:51:56 <oerjan> hm i recall map ($x) l is also sequence l x
03:52:36 <quintopia> what's a good way to convert levenshtein distance into a %similarity measure?
03:52:56 <oerjan> :t \f x -> fmap ($x) f
03:52:57 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
03:53:30 <oerjan> :t \f x -> Data.Traversable.traverse f x
03:53:31 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *) b (t :: * -> *). (Data.Traversable.Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
03:55:23 <oerjan> :t (\f x -> Data.Traversable.traverse f x) `asTypeOf` (\f x -> fmap ($x) f)
03:55:24 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = t a
03:57:20 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
03:57:29 <oerjan> :t Data.Traversable.traverse
03:57:31 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *) b (t :: * -> *). (Data.Traversable.Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
03:57:37 <elliott> quintopia: /((len(a)+len(b))/2)?
03:57:43 <elliott> i.e. divide by average length
03:57:45 <oerjan> oh... traverse is like mapM not sequence
03:57:51 <oerjan> :t Data.Traversable.sequenceA
03:57:52 <lambdabot> forall (t :: * -> *) (f :: * -> *) a. (Data.Traversable.Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a)
03:57:55 <elliott> quintopia: that gets you [0,1] i think but i may be wrong ther
03:58:11 <oerjan> :t (\f x -> Data.Traversable.sequenceA f x) `asTypeOf` (\f x -> fmap ($x) f)
03:58:12 <lambdabot> forall (t :: * -> *) a a1. (Data.Traversable.Traversable t) => t (a1 -> a) -> a1 -> t a
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04:01:05 <lambdabot> class (Functor t, Foldable t) => Traversable t where
04:01:05 <lambdabot> traverse :: Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
04:01:05 <lambdabot> sequenceA :: Applicative f => t (f a) -> f (t a)
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04:10:59 <copumpkin> pikhq: what's the etymology of it anyway?
04:11:33 <elliott> he repeatedly points out he made it up when he was 8
04:11:43 <copumpkin> that's a bit of a stretch, pronunciation-wise
04:12:12 <oerjan> an 8-year old with a serious speech impediment
04:12:38 <elliott> copumpkin: well if you take kh as one sound
04:12:52 <elliott> admittedly q = oo is a bit... yeah
04:13:01 <elliott> but i can see how it works!! kinda
04:13:07 <elliott> copumpkin: no the ch is from the h
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04:20:00 <oerjan> another chlorine hater
04:21:28 -!- elliott has set topic: bromine, minin' for bros since bro o clock | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
04:21:33 -!- elliott has set topic: bromine, minin' for bros since bro o' clock | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
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04:28:33 <pikhq> copumpkin: I was 8 and now I'm not changing it.
04:28:35 <quintopia> or are clog logs now fully imported?
04:28:44 <pikhq> I've had it for longer than I was alive then, so. :P
04:29:08 <elliott> and want everyone to use my bot!
04:29:11 <quintopia> my nick is only like 11 years old, but it's still pretty much the best nick ever.
04:29:22 <pikhq> Also, I still actually like Pokemon.
04:29:53 <quintopia> that's the length of the shortest pole i would use to touch you
04:30:15 <quintopia> i figured you had to be a few years younger than me to like pokemon
04:30:42 <pikhq> How the hell would I have been able to like Pokemon at age 8 if I weren't a max of 20 years old?
04:30:44 <elliott> ais is like...24 by now and he likes pokemon :p
04:31:01 <pikhq> Well. If I were Japanese the max would be 22, barring time travel.
04:31:05 <pikhq> (localisation took 2 years)
04:32:47 <elliott> hm why is ther ea syntax error
04:33:02 <oerjan> because you cannot spell
04:33:25 <elliott> oh please, someone has to pick up the gauntlet now that j-invariant has seemingly disappeearaerdad
04:38:41 <elliott> If a here document appears within a compound block, the contents of the document must be after the whole block:
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07:05:53 <pikhq> Huh. The Decemberists' "The King Is Dead" is #1 on the Billboard 200 right now.
07:06:17 <pikhq> I didn't know there was that big of a fanbase for prog folk rock with the occasional sea shanty.
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07:13:54 <quintopia> and the hazards of love was just so awesome they couldn't help but gain a following
07:14:02 <pikhq> The Decemberists? I was really under the impression they were pretty niche. Guess The Hazards of Love fixed that.
07:14:07 <quintopia> i tuned in for the live radio broadcast of the whole album
07:15:01 <quintopia> the king is dead is #2 most heavily trafficked album on Rdio
07:15:14 <quintopia> after Tron: Legacy OST (another awesome album)
07:15:32 <pikhq> I need to get that.
07:15:45 <augur> http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldestree/sets/72157623651032801/with/4492815824/
07:18:08 <pikhq> That's very clever photography there.
07:18:40 <quintopia> i don't even see how it's just photography.
07:19:54 <pikhq> It's all upside down shots in puddles, very carefully composed.
07:20:23 <augur> turn your computer upside down
07:20:27 <augur> then itll just look normal and boring
07:23:13 <pikhq> Bull of Heaven is a prog rock band. They have done some insanely long songs.
07:23:37 <pikhq> By "insane" I mean "6 years long".
07:24:59 <quintopia> erm...they've actually performed these?
07:25:16 <quintopia> this sounds like something impossible without computer-aided composition
07:25:18 <augur> pikhq: brian eno wrote a 10000 year long song.
07:25:28 <pikhq> quintopia: Almost certainly impossible without computer-aided composition.
07:25:31 <quintopia> writing and performing are two different things
07:25:38 <pikhq> quintopia: However, they *do* have a 3.9 terabyte MP3 of it.
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07:26:47 <augur> john cage wrote a song thats currently being played in germany over a period of 639 years
07:27:19 <pikhq> Ah, yes, that piece.
07:27:20 <augur> jem finer wrote a song thats 1000 years long
07:27:29 <pikhq> The one with the annotation that it be played "as long as possible".
07:27:48 <quintopia> augur: you mean the organ piece with one note per day or w/e?
07:28:04 <zzo38> Of course you would not have time to play the music that long!!
07:28:24 <quintopia> they switch off organists every time they change notes
07:28:56 <zzo38> Only one note per day? Can they make one long song with 120 notes per minute?
07:31:30 <pikhq> Ah, yes, "As Slow As Possible", by John Cage...
07:32:22 <pikhq> Exactly how slow it should be played is up to one's own taste...
07:33:10 <pikhq> But generally limited by things like the decay of the waveform in a string instrument, or a human's breath, or such things.
07:33:43 <pikhq> A pipe organ has no such limits; you can simply get an object to hold down the notes, and you can repair the thing while it's in use, for the most part.
07:33:46 <zzo38> John Cage wrote music with strange thing, such as one with twelve radios and you have to turn the channel and volume according to the book. And one music which is entirely silence, no notes (I have seen one paper of 4'33" that has dynamics written down, but no notes, only full rests in each bar).
07:34:00 <zzo38> pikhq: Have you ever built a pipe organ?
07:34:55 <zzo38> Have you ever seen a pipe organ with 65536 stops?
07:35:21 <pikhq> John Cage did love his avant garde music.
07:35:50 <pikhq> zzo38: I haven't built a pipe organ, no.
07:36:03 <Sgeo> Pipe organs are hot swappable?
07:36:13 <quintopia> aleph-10 is about 2.12 years long, assuming every part is 67secs long like the other alephs
07:36:37 <Sgeo> Physically, not just emotionally
07:37:00 <quintopia> Imaginary Lanscapes no. 4 i believe is the title of the radio piece
07:37:07 * quintopia know far too much about electronic music
07:37:35 <zzo38> In contrast to John Cage, the music by John Stump is not even playable.
07:38:06 <pikhq> And doesn't have an associated Wikipedia page.
07:38:12 <quintopia> the music by conlon nancarrow is not playable by humans
07:38:41 <quintopia> (he has pieces for 10 synchronized player pianos)
07:39:04 <pikhq> Okay, so it's playable by machine. I can actually accept that.
07:39:19 <zzo38> I mean, music by John Stump has notation which doesn't even make sense. It is not playable even by computer.
07:40:09 <pikhq> zzo38: Can it even be called music if it has no sound representation?
07:40:26 <zzo38> It also has instructions to the performers which don't work, and Italian terms which are wrong in this context.
07:40:49 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't know. But it is written like music, it just can't be played like music.
07:41:12 <pikhq> Oh, wait, right. Faerie's Aire and Death Waltz.
07:41:39 <pikhq> The guy was a music typesetter and felt like having some fun.
07:42:15 <pikhq> Not music, but definitely a work of art.
07:42:40 <zzo38> That makes it "unmusic"?
07:43:25 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure to be music it needs to at least *be sound*.
07:44:20 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCgT94A7WgI
07:45:12 <quintopia> "with much passionfruit through the frog"
07:46:23 <quintopia> "Notice: If you are a 2nd Violinist, do not use a 1st Violin. Use the 2nd Violin you were issued."
07:49:23 <pikhq> I do hope that someday Lilypond will be able to typeset Faerie's Aire and Death Waltz, and Strin Quartet No. 556(b) for Strings In A Minor (Motoring Accident).
07:51:43 <zzo38> Make a music designed to be played by non-existent creatures, using non-existent musical instruments.
07:52:22 <quintopia> but then people will just invent the creatures and the instruments so that the music gets played
07:52:48 <zzo38> quintopia: No they won't, they will write a computer program to synthesize the music.
07:54:25 <quintopia> but then how can they be sure that's how it will actually sound? synthesizers just can't accurately reproduce the music with the same emotion the fictional creatures can
07:55:16 <zzo38> quintopia: That is the point, nobody can actually do it with the same accuracy.
07:55:34 <zzo38> Which is why the music will never get played properly.
07:55:41 <quintopia> but where there is a will, there is a way
07:55:48 <quintopia> aka, invent the creatures and the instruments
07:57:48 <quintopia> last year we synthesized an entire batch of DNA for a functioning bacterium from scratch, people are already working on engineering the DNA themselves. give it another 100 years and they'll have completely artificial tardigrade-sized animals swimming around.
07:57:55 <zzo38> How do you expect that to happen if both things are such that they are uninventable?
07:58:01 <quintopia> hundred years after that...who know?
07:58:16 <zzo38> Or at least, require so much money and energy that you cannot do that?
07:58:33 <zzo38> Or else, violate the laws of physics in some subtle way?
07:59:32 <quintopia> i think i'm more amused by the idea of someone building a living entity from scratch just so it can play a piece written a thousand years earlier accurately for the first time
07:59:43 <quintopia> the impossible to play music has been done
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08:00:18 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, if genetic engineering becomes anywhere *near* as simple as, say, programming, then it would almost certainly happen.
08:01:11 <pikhq> And given that it seems entirely likely that 100 years from now we'll have a pretty good understanding of the actual functioning of the genetics of various life forms...
08:01:20 <pikhq> (quite likely sooner)
08:01:51 <quintopia> indeed, i suspect that it will have such a strong back-influence on programming, that we'll actually be able to engineer software with tolerances and self-repair
08:02:47 <zzo38> And the length of the music is long enough that only the more insane people will try to make these creatures and instruments for the purpose of this music. And also the complicated musical instrument.
08:02:48 <pikhq> As DNA processing is TC, yeah, quite likely.
08:03:10 <zzo38> And as such, a new musical notation is required.
08:03:11 <quintopia> i mean...in the language of T:L...isomorphic algorithms baby
08:03:17 <quintopia> yeahhhh, the ISOs are gonna take over
08:03:32 <pikhq> (yes, it's Turing complete. Really.)
08:03:38 <Sgeo> Java 2 tools from Sun Microsystems on CD!
08:05:04 <zzo38> pikhq: If it is Turing complete, is there a C compiler for it?
08:05:21 <quintopia> pikhq: it's really not that hard for a signalling system to become turing-complete. the brain is practically randomly wired with just a handful of governing rules, and it's obviously TC. no one is really surprised that DNA is. Esp. in consideration of the fact that Hofstadter's Typogenetics are a /simplification/ of the genetic process.
08:05:35 <pikhq> quintopia: It's still pretty awesome.
08:05:52 <zzo38> quintopia: Is Typogenetics TC?
08:06:26 <zzo38> (I know it has no loops, but somehow can make loops using some external force?)
08:06:33 <quintopia> zzo38: I've never seen a proof, but I'm p sure it is. The operations it provides are very complex.
08:07:13 <quintopia> oh, it doesn't have loops but it does have the ability to quine itself, so it could "loop" in the underload fashion
08:07:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, but there is no command to load the produced code, so you have to load it by an external force too, otherwise it will just stop.
08:08:20 <zzo38> So you do have to load whatever code is made by the Typogenetics program.
08:09:07 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure it was presumed that every free-floating bit of DNA would get the appropriate proteins attached to it if they existed
08:09:17 <quintopia> aka, all code gets executed when possible
08:10:22 <zzo38> But some are treated as data?
08:10:37 <quintopia> everything is code, everything is data :P
08:11:12 <quintopia> heck, some code is actually two different codes depending on where you start reading it
08:11:30 <quintopia> ...that's something we need a good esolang for
08:11:53 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, I believe someone should make a esolang for that.
08:12:16 <quintopia> it would be the ultimate golfing language
08:13:24 <quintopia> the interpreter would cycle between x different modes in a loop as it passed over the program, and you could execute the same bit of code multiple times but slightly out of phase each time in order to get different output from it
08:13:44 <quintopia> but it would need to be cleverly written so that you could actually really do clever stuff with that
08:14:35 <quintopia> i suppose that's kind of how BCT works...
08:16:16 <quintopia> so something like BCT, except the program is not separate from the data or something like that...
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08:21:02 <zzo38> I am just working on TeXnicard now.
08:23:44 <zzo38> marry: Hello, World!
08:24:20 <zzo38> marry: Do you have any question or anything to discuss?
08:24:47 <quintopia> if by we you mean you, then i suppose that's a question for you to answer by introspection
08:25:02 <quintopia> if you mean me, i'm pretty sure i can
08:25:43 <marry> how is it goin there
08:26:20 <zzo38> Nothing is wrong on my end.
08:27:28 <zzo38> marry: Do you know any computer programming? Do you know any esoteric computer programming?
08:27:34 <quintopia> okay, i think self-BCT could be extended to a more interesting rule set by using a full huffman coded set of instructions, and that would be even more complicated than the thing we were discussing
08:28:00 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, that is why to invent such a things as that.
08:28:56 <quintopia> i'm gonna go to bed and think about what would make the most interesting instruction set
08:31:13 <zzo38> marry: I fail to understand. Maybe you can be more specific?
08:32:28 <quintopia> marry is connected from a nigerian ip address
08:33:09 <zzo38> Ah, they speak only Nigerian and not very good English?
08:33:23 <quintopia> a lot of nigerians have good enough english
08:33:59 <pikhq> English *is* the official language of Nigeria...
08:34:15 <zzo38> pikhq: O, I didn't know that before.
08:35:16 <zzo38> marry: You are still not being very specific with what you want, I think......
08:36:24 <zzo38> I think you are not being specific.
08:36:42 <marry> u think that marry is a very specific girl
08:36:59 <pikhq> Mind, Nigeria has some 510 languages native to the region, so English being the official language there doesn't actually say that much.
08:37:21 <zzo38> Now I am getting confused?
08:37:37 <zzo38> pikhq: I didn't know that either.
08:38:31 <marry> ok can i no where u from
08:38:38 <zzo38> pikhq: Now you do know.
08:38:59 <zzo38> marry: I live in Canada.
08:39:21 * pikhq resides in the United States of America
08:39:47 <marry> canada is good to live ok
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12:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> 03:12:18 <Sgeo> And there's now another person who seems to want me out of her life ← was it the benzene or the vitamin C?
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12:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> 08:49:35 <marry> u think that marry is a very specific girl
12:30:38 <Phantom_Hoover> There is something hilarious about that which I can't put my finger on.
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13:01:37 <Ilari> Huh about that benzene (ugh...) or vitamin C (useful...)
13:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, because I first suggested that Sgeo put benzene into KT-AT's perfume to teach her that vitamin C does not actually cure cancer, then that he trick her into using vitamin C as a skin reyouthismootherator (which it is, but it burns your skin.)
13:04:07 <Ilari> It is reyouthismootherator because it burns skin?
13:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Possibly; I'm basing this on a passage in Bad Science.
13:06:48 <Ilari> That would remind me of fiber... At least insoluble one etches your intestines from the inside... Which has certain effects that are of questionable usefulness... And possibly harmful effects as well... :-)
13:07:48 <Ilari> As for soluble fiber... Part of it gets turned into some short chain fatty acids (that might actually be useful)...
13:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's just that it's an acid, and putting it on your skin in high concentrations is going to hurt.
13:11:38 <Ilari> Yeah, vitamin C is also known as L-ascorbic acid... Looking at its structure, dunno about its acidity, it doesn't have carboxylic acid groups...
13:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The WP article on ascorbic acid explains the acidity, but I didn't really look at it.
13:13:14 <Ilari> Depends on what one considers "acid". Chemical defintions tend to encompass quite mild substances.
13:14:43 <Ilari> Hah... If you have 1612 torrents transferring, DHT is going to blow up the bandwidth usage (PEX doesn't seem to use very much...)
13:17:53 <ais523> hmm, are you trying to think up a really complex way to indirectly kill Sgeo's girlfriend?
13:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover> "Putting an extremely potent carcinogenic in her perfume" is hardly a subtle plan worthy of the greatest masterminds in history.
13:27:20 <ais523> well, why would you do that?
13:27:27 <ais523> it strikes me as being evil for no good reason
13:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> To demonstrate that vitamin C is not, in fact, a cure for cancer.
13:27:59 <ais523> that's a really pointless reason
13:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> That's basically the most noble thing ever that doesn't involve kittens.
13:33:58 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: by causing cancer as a side effect?
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13:59:05 <ais523> <tsmc> I don't really have a point, but I'm trying to fit in by bashing PHP on reddit.
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14:06:38 <noteda> http://youtube.com/watch?v=cK5yl9t_vfc
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14:09:51 <ais523> elliott: Herobrine doesn't show parts
14:10:18 <ais523> but according to the raw unformatted logs, it joined, sent a link, and parted in the same second
14:10:22 <ais523> so I'm going to guess spam
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14:11:38 <noteda> http://youtube.com/watch?v=cK5yl9t_vfc iwillrockyou
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15:20:40 <Ilari> Hmm... 1st depleted date given on IPv4depletion.com is now 2011-09-02...
15:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> They remembered a block that someone had left lying around.
15:25:45 <Ilari> That's RIR depletion... That site has IANA depletion today (probably will actually happen this month)...
15:26:41 <ais523> there isn't a lot of January left
15:27:20 <Ilari> Yeah, third last day today... But Monday is 31st...
15:28:57 <Ilari> And also, NANOG51 (North American Network Operators Group meeting) will start tomorrow...
15:40:00 <Ilari> Hurr... "Current burnrate in used /8 per month: 2.27
15:46:01 <Ilari> 250k+ allocations from APNIC in last 30 days: Something like 20.25Mi...
15:51:50 <Ilari> That's about 1.25 blocks... Single RIR... One month.
15:53:56 <Ilari> At 4.8 blocks left until phase 3, depleting that at 1.25 blocks per month would take almost 4 months (4 months from now is end-May).
15:56:10 <Ilari> So APNIC IPv4 pool might deplete before world IPv6 day...
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17:08:14 <quintopia> someone give me a perl subsitution that maps '####. "arbitrary text" - text' to '<text> arbitrary text' :P
17:09:08 <ais523> s/^####\. "(.*)" - ([^"]*?)$/<$2> $1/
17:10:27 <quintopia> #### is actually an arbitrary number
17:10:31 <oerjan> that would likely depend on where stray "'s and -'s are allowed
17:10:53 <oerjan> and if it's everywhere, it's ambiguous
17:10:54 <quintopia> but i'll just plug in [0123456789]+ there
17:11:09 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah, i'm pretty sure there's nothign i can do about that
17:11:44 <ais523> the regex there disallows double quotes in the text at the end
17:12:03 <ais523> in order to resolve the ambiguity
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17:19:26 <noteda6> irc.hardchats.com #gnaa - RECRUITMENT DRIVE, JOIN US FOR THE BEST IRC CHAT EVER! iwillrockyou
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17:20:38 <ais523> why pick on /this/ channel?
17:20:53 <ais523> as places to spam go, #esoteric seems like a bad choice...
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17:24:39 <oerjan> hm should i include the anlego part as well...
17:25:01 <ais523> nah, keep it as-is, no need for a more specific block than that
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17:57:44 <Vorpal> has anyone tried a bayesian spam filter on irc?
17:57:50 <Vorpal> I wonder how well it would work
17:58:32 <quintopia> it would be the smart thing to do...
17:58:35 <Vorpal> ais523, would bayesian spam filters work for wikis btw?
18:10:26 <ais523> potentially, but I doubt it would work reliably
18:11:28 <ais523> because it's inherently probabalistic
18:14:00 <quintopia> they've been very effective for email...but it's probably easier to distinguish spam emails than spam IRC messages
18:14:41 <ais523> spam IRC messages from noteda are really easy to detect anyway: they join and part in the same second
18:14:47 <quintopia> one way to cut down spam would be to auto-detect the behavior of join-privmsg-part
18:14:51 <ais523> and nobody does that legitimately, at least not sending a message in between
18:15:28 <quintopia> but then spambots would just join-waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait-post-part
18:15:37 <ais523> that would slow them down a /lot/
18:15:49 <quintopia> not if they can join a lot of channels simultaneously
18:15:55 <quintopia> which is something legitimate users do
18:16:11 <quintopia> a better behavior to detect would just be "joining all public channels"
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18:16:33 <quintopia> for certain values of all, i bet they do
18:16:50 <ais523> seems to be a random subset
18:23:48 <quintopia> i suspect that unregistered nicks joining 200 channels sooning after requesting the channel list is probably a good indicator :P
18:25:18 <ais523> I thought #esoteric wasn't on the list?
18:28:54 <quintopia> the only problem is how do you confirm humanness for false positives? if you use captchas, then you have to choose between a per-message captcha (annoying) or a single captcha (easily circumvented by the human operating the bot)
18:30:26 <quintopia> irc is not designed for easy spam prevention really
18:34:16 <Ilari> Isn't the channel limit less than 200?
18:37:49 <Vorpal> there is a limit on how many channels you can join
18:38:48 <Vorpal> quintopia, why. It is 100 channels at once max
18:39:07 <quintopia> i know people who like to idle in more channels than that at a time
18:39:08 <Vorpal> quintopia, it isn't for spam prevention. It is to prevent overloading server by 100 clients all joining every channel on the network
18:39:15 <quintopia> mostly inactive channels of course
18:39:29 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'm in 95 on this network. In total about 300 nowdays
18:39:35 <Vorpal> used to be above 500 for a while
18:39:39 <quintopia> so why don't they limit the channel join rate then?
18:39:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, they do as well
18:40:03 <quintopia> then why do they need to cap the number of channels?
18:40:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, but that wouldn't help with the huge load of sending a huge number of high traffic channels to a client
18:40:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, or why not make a client join a new channel every second. Finally the server will run out of memory
18:41:21 <Vorpal> /join #a0000001 //join #a0000002 ...
18:41:44 <quintopia> they could just say 100 channels *per server*
18:41:50 <quintopia> if you want more, connect to more servers
18:42:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, well sure. It is per connection
18:43:29 <Sgeo> Vorpal, someone mentioned that you like Erlang?
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19:30:19 <quintopia> vorpal: i assumed it was per user.
19:30:48 <quintopia> can you even use the same username on multiple servers okay?
19:31:06 <ais523> quintopia: I'm ais523 on more than one server atm
19:33:00 <quintopia> it only lists anthony when i whois you
19:33:43 <ais523> oh, you mean Freenode server? that's impossible
19:33:47 <ais523> I thought you meant a different network
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19:41:07 <ais523> a different network would be a different server
19:42:36 <quintopia> it would be a silly question about a diff net tho
19:43:08 <ais523> that's why I was confused
19:44:21 * elliott wonders why ais523 is on slashnet
19:44:25 <ais523> I tend to think of the different servers as all being the same, because IRC makes them work like that
19:44:39 <ais523> it's BlogNomic-specific
19:45:08 <Vorpal> <ais523> I tend to think of the different servers as all being the same, because IRC makes them work like that <-- too many netsplits for that abstraction to hold up
19:51:52 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I think by servers ais523 means IRC network?
19:52:15 * Sgeo should learn to read more scrollup before commenting
19:52:54 <Sgeo> [I feel manipulative. With what I just said, either I corrected myself and avoided making a fool of myself, or I was right the first time, in which I'd be told that and wouldn't be considered a fool for thinking it in the first place]
19:57:05 <Sgeo> Since I was still unsure what exactly the case was.
19:59:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Please apologise for being manipulative.
20:00:40 <ais523> Sgeo: btw, despite the advice of this channel, don't cause cancer on your girlfriend just to make a stupid point
20:01:25 <elliott> ais523: Yes, I'm sure Sgeo is stupid enough to do that.
20:01:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Kill everyone you know.
20:01:39 <elliott> Sgeo: By setting them on fire.
20:01:49 <Sgeo> elliott, I'll start with you
20:01:57 <elliott> I mean everyone you know in real life.
20:02:49 <ais523> why can't we give good advice for a change?
20:03:09 <elliott> ais523: I've tried giving good advice to Sgeo and he ignored it, so I gave up
20:03:10 <ais523> (actually, I can get a reputation for good advice really easily by waiting until other people give obviously bad advice and then contradicting them)
20:06:56 <Sgeo> Also, just because I like her, doesn't mean she's my girlfriend
20:12:14 <elliott> 14:22:53 <ais523> elliott: Herobrine doesn't show parts
20:12:14 <elliott> 14:23:21 <ais523> but according to the raw unformatted logs, it joined, sent a link, and parted in the same second
20:12:14 <elliott> 14:23:25 <ais523> so I'm going to guess spam
20:13:08 <ais523> not showing parts is a bug
20:13:11 <ais523> that I reported to you
20:13:18 <ais523> the other two comments were a different fork of the thread
20:15:17 <ais523> I reported that spambot in #freenode, so did a bunch of other people on unrelated channels
20:26:21 <elliott> http://vimeo.com/19273744 Visual (Max/MSP) language based on Haskell, used for livecoding music performances
20:26:32 <elliott> (the guy behind it is the most "famous" livecoder, popularised it...)
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20:31:16 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i would love to code in) `1=(+ ,in ( old 1)) taxi-list)) is
20:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the fact that someone wrote taxi-list in a Lispy context.
20:35:32 <elliott> Sgeo: writing a music program live.
20:35:49 <elliott> i.e. setting up synthesisers, samples, delays, blah blah blah, as a program, as a live music performance
20:38:01 <coppro> Is Omicron Persei 8 a horrible pun on "operate"?
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20:42:56 <ais523> is:noun:adjective is not the same as equalityt
20:43:13 <ais523> just is:noun:noun, and even then only if you aren't using collective nouns like "programmer"
20:43:20 <ais523> hmm, that's not quite collective, but you know what I mean
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20:56:36 <quintopia> i did a live coding performance once
20:56:53 <quintopia> which should really exist for linux :/
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21:34:04 <Gregor> church: Where's Turing?
21:38:34 <oerjan> well i wouldn't be one to imply things, but has anyone ever _seen_ turing and superturing together?
21:39:06 <oerjan> (note: first part is a lie)
21:39:43 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
21:39:53 <elliott> for pointing out your mistake? :p
21:40:04 <oerjan> um there was no mistake
21:41:52 <Gregor> The fact that SuperTuring is a Super-endowed Turing isn't a secret :P
21:42:23 <oerjan> hmph, i'll go ask super goof if he thinks it makes sense
21:43:42 * oerjan realizes super goof won't understand the question anyhow
21:47:15 <oerjan> Gregor: hm but how can superturing be a superhero without a secret identity? impossible!
21:47:41 * oerjan brushes away all counterexamples as irrelevant
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21:57:37 <Gregor> oerjan: Dude, if you can solve the halting problem...
22:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Cygwin the Linux-on-Windows (Unix Environment)]] — MC wiki.
22:02:24 <ais523> that's... a crazy page title
22:02:28 <ais523> why is it not just [[Cygwin]]?
22:02:35 <ais523> which is the obvious name
22:06:19 <ais523> why would you quote with [[]] when referring to a wiki?
22:06:22 <ais523> that's massively misleading
22:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I picked it up from elliott, and I use it because it enables unambiguous quoting of large passages.
22:16:16 <oerjan> why that is _far_ too indistinct, try {/\||_#== ==#_||\/} instead
22:18:49 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if {{{ or }}} exists in what I want to quote, I add extra { or } to the quote marks
22:18:51 <ais523> that way they nest well
22:19:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You might want to use [[[...]]].
22:19:11 <elliott> I stole it from [other people] who used triples, but I normally use doubles out of laziness.
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22:32:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Korean children fill in Hark, a Vagrant comics for an English lesson; hilarity ensues.
22:36:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's stolen off Dinosaur Comics :P
22:36:46 <elliott> The second one is amazing.
22:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, except with CHIL— wait, Axe Cop did that as well.
22:37:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No... Dinosaur Comics has been filled in by English students in Japan.
22:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> You never know, maybe it could even make xkcd funny again.
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22:40:09 <oerjan> US secretary of state fills in comic. hillarity ensues.
22:42:29 * elliott has set topic to: oerjan is banned forever
22:43:01 <oerjan> IT DOESN'T MATTER MY LIFE PUNISHMENT IS FULFILLED
22:43:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, augh was that a pun in "punishment"?
22:59:32 <Sgeo> This. Episode. Bores. Me.
23:01:45 <Sgeo> There is no A-plot
23:01:51 <Sgeo> Just a B-plot and a C-plot
23:01:57 <Sgeo> As far as I'm concerned
23:02:11 <ais523> also, just tried to upgrade MSE on a friend's Windows computer, as they refuse to use anything else
23:02:22 <ais523> the upgrade worked, but claimed it had crashed and that there was no virus protection
23:06:19 <Sgeo> ais523, what's wrong with MSE?
23:06:52 <ais523> nothing as Windows antivirus software goes, that's why it's MSE on there rather than something else
23:06:58 <ais523> but I didn't expect Windows to just lie to me like that
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23:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, now, thanks to you, I hate people who say "GNU/Linux".
23:32:41 <oerjan> um that's an accurate term isn't it
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23:33:51 <oerjan> linux kernel + GNU utilities
23:34:06 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but GNU utilities are not that relevant
23:34:18 <elliott> oerjan: you could replace Ubuntu's coreutils with busybox tomorrow and the system would be exactly the same for 90% of users
23:34:29 <elliott> substantially the same for some percentage of the rest
23:34:51 <elliott> oerjan: for instance on a KDE system, KDE/Linux is a far more accurate description than GNU/Linux, for the user
23:34:52 <Sgeo> elliott, please tell me that "Explorers" is as canonical as "Threshold"
23:35:22 <elliott> Sgeo: what's wrong with it
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23:36:08 * elliott googles. well. bullshit science isn't exactly unusual for star trek.
23:37:06 <Sgeo> It seems to imply that the various civilizations _should_ have roughly the same level of technology at the same time. They act surprised when this is violated
23:37:35 <Phantom_Hoover> To us mere mortals, it is a molecular form of gaseous lithium. To us mere mortals who read Trek science crap, it's an isotope of strontium. But it's also apparently a transparent, non-metallic crystal.
23:38:32 <elliott> I'm still disappointed there isn't a Star Trek episode about the poor sods who have to clean all the bodily fluids off the holodeck floor.
23:39:13 <elliott> oerjan: a complete immersive virtual reality environment that has been demonstrated to allow perfect simulated intercourse?
23:39:53 <elliott> oerjan: Oh come on, like they wouldn't be permanently in use.
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23:49:33 <Sgeo> Maybe the holo(decks|suites) vaporize all such fluids or something
23:50:06 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I'm not sure if Star Trek vaporization refers to annihilating something or turning it into a gas
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23:52:55 <elliott> "all *such* fluids" -- if (semen)
23:53:39 <pikhq> Perhaps they've got automated cleaning.
23:53:52 <pikhq> Seems to me that you'd want to invent that soon after inventing the holodeck.
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23:59:39 <Sgeo> elliott, suppose someone _really really_ wants to use a simulated toilet for some reason
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00:15:08 <zzo38> To me, at least, GNU is more a part of the operating system than KDE is.
00:16:45 <variable> I reset my computer yesterday - so its gets a new name "befunge"
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00:40:04 <oerjan> copumpkin: hey what is the Monad instance for that
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00:41:39 <elliott> there are comonad transformers? :D
00:42:19 <copumpkin> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/comonad-transformers
00:43:12 * oerjan cunningly checks #haskell logs but is none the wiser
00:44:21 <oerjan> i'm sure Sgeo would like that AWW transformer
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01:07:18 <nddrylliog> got a crazy ideas I'd like feedback on
01:09:46 <zzo38> What is the ideas?
01:09:51 <nddrylliog> https://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0AakBA-t72L0TZGZncTh0aGJfMTAwZzM0cTJmYzk&hl=en&authkey=CMyQ8Qc
01:10:15 <nddrylliog> ^ here it is, in its nake beauty. Bear in mind that it's 02:23 AM.
01:11:06 <elliott> who the fuck makes slideshows at 2:23 am
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01:11:28 <elliott> nddrylliog: you're disturbed!
01:12:03 <elliott> We also know that it's probably stupid to try to access element -1, or element i > size (syntactic sugar aside).
01:12:03 <elliott> But we have to spell it out carefully so that the program won't crash and burn because we joyfully walked over the boundaries of the allocated memory.
01:12:08 <elliott> nddrylliog: you may like http://www.ats-lang.org/.
01:12:29 <nddrylliog> basically, I'm hesitating between "this has been done before" and "nobody's smart enough to implement such a compiler"
01:12:29 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's a low-level functional systems programming language with dependent types to ensure safety and correctness.
01:12:38 <nddrylliog> with option 2 being a little more hopeful than the first
01:13:11 <elliott> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/tags/ats/ are probably interesting posts since most of chris double's are :P
01:13:58 <nddrylliog> elliott: but I hope you undertand from my slideshow that what I'm suggesting is way more than just pre/post conditions
01:14:05 <elliott> well I haven't read any more yet! :D
01:14:23 <elliott> "An array has constant time access to element of index 0"
01:14:31 <elliott> is that important for the compiler to know?
01:15:01 <elliott> nddrylliog: looking at slide 11, i can safely say you're going to need to write proofs to program in this language
01:15:05 <nddrylliog> this part doesn't matter much, it's just examples
01:15:08 <elliott> at least in complicated cases
01:15:25 <nddrylliog> elliott: I think that's a safe assumption, yeah
01:15:31 <elliott> nddrylliog: that element inside array can be written as e.g.
01:16:08 <elliott> Record ElementOf (array : Array) := mkElement { index : nat; index_in_range : index < sizeOf array; data : something goes here }
01:16:15 <elliott> where "index < sizeOf array" represents a proof of that
01:16:32 <nddrylliog> I should really take a look at Coq, it's been teasing me for years
01:17:27 <oerjan> i cannot kick you, i didn't get the pun
01:17:44 <elliott> (0 <= index < size) => exists(element e | e.index == index)
01:18:13 <elliott> (0 <= index < size) <=> isElementAt(array, index)
01:18:16 * oerjan wasn't aware of that word
01:18:35 <nddrylliog> elliott: right but how do you define isElementAt ?
01:18:36 <elliott> "So, what can our language do?" <-- absolutely nothing, you haven't specified any computation mechanism >:D
01:18:59 <nddrylliog> bbbahh at this point it can check for things
01:19:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: well here's an abstract array structure in Coq
01:19:20 <oerjan> also, having a good person inside is no excuse, that's true even for cannibals!
01:19:33 <elliott> Record Array (elemType:Set) := mkArray { size : nat; get : forall index:nat, (index < size) -> elemType }
01:19:51 <elliott> nddrylliog: where get is initialised by the run-time system and such
01:19:54 <elliott> i.e. this is just abstract
01:20:09 <nddrylliog> yeah but. you're missing the "consecutive" element part.
01:20:39 <nddrylliog> grr this is the only point I wanted to get across in these slides and I failed
01:20:52 <nddrylliog> you're describing any kind of list-like structure
01:21:02 <nddrylliog> I, on the other hand, I'm describing a specific implementation of a kind of list-like structure
01:21:03 <elliott> nddrylliog: sure... but that's just a stupid low-level detail :D
01:21:22 <elliott> another stupid low-level detail, like CPUs and the universe
01:21:25 <nddrylliog> victim cache - if anyone ever does that in hardware
01:21:42 <elliott> nddrylliog: i'm sorry, all I can see is "DETAIL DETAIL DETAIL"
01:21:47 <elliott> nddrylliog: more seriously, you might want to look at Frama-C
01:21:58 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's a theorem-proving system for C code
01:22:04 <elliott> nddrylliog: that uses Coq as a backend
01:22:21 <elliott> (I realise it's not what you want, but you could perhaps compile your language to this.)
01:22:24 <elliott> (Or even just get ideas from it.)
01:22:32 <nddrylliog> anything that looks like it interests me
01:22:47 <nddrylliog> but yeah, this idea is pretty much all about the details
01:22:53 <nddrylliog> that makes a program run fast, you know.
01:23:05 <nddrylliog> correctness and conciseness are just two nice side effects :)
01:23:23 <elliott> nddrylliog: "In the following code, # means belong to and something' means the future version of something" <-- go purely functional, simply return a new array satisfying an additional condition
01:23:35 <elliott> nddrylliog: this will make your language's semantics a _lot_ simpler and allow for easier implementation
01:23:49 <elliott> nddrylliog: (without significantly reducing performance -- in most cases, it is easy to turn this into mutation at the compiler level)
01:23:54 <elliott> nddrylliog: (after you verify correctness)
01:24:03 <nddrylliog> where are you seeing any modification?
01:24:23 <nddrylliog> well hmmph actually it's a bit unclear, I agree.
01:24:45 <nddrylliog> but mhm yeah I can go purely functional.
01:25:27 <elliott> array.insert (index i, data d) =>
01:25:27 <elliott> (element e | e.data == d, e.index == i) # arra
01:25:30 <elliott> nddrylliog: I would rephrase this as.
01:26:04 <elliott> nddrylliog: dude, your element e thing is broken
01:26:08 <elliott> because it doesn't specify what array it refers to
01:26:23 <elliott> nddrylliog: it should be (exists e : element theArray | ...)
01:26:26 <elliott> i.e. taking the array as a type parameter
01:26:47 <elliott> here's how i would phrase it: array.insert(index i, data d) == array' => exists (e : element array' | e.index == array.size && e.data = d)
01:27:55 <elliott> "The compiler can detect edge cases itself, and optimize for them."
01:28:00 <elliott> beware the sufficiently-smart compiler argument
01:28:20 <elliott> your language seems nice, but so far, you haven't provided ANY concrete details as to how any of this could be implemented :)
01:28:29 <nddrylliog> but it seems so simple from here, and we could help it for complex cases
01:28:46 <nddrylliog> yeah I know but you should know how my brain works - I have ideas how to implement that. I'm being practical
01:28:47 <elliott> as someone who's looked a lot at formal verification of software
01:28:51 <elliott> THIS IS NOT SIMPLE AT ALL :)
01:28:56 <elliott> even these simple examples you give
01:29:09 <elliott> nddrylliog: well let's put it this way i think your language would advance the state of the art about 20 years.
01:29:13 <nddrylliog> but hmm your version of insert is 1) much longer 2) I don't see what's wrong with my 'element e'
01:29:26 <nddrylliog> when you first define it, it doesn't belong anywhere... yet
01:29:35 <elliott> nddrylliog: by version is much longer but much more precise and purely functional
01:29:45 <elliott> nddrylliog: also, exists (element e | e.index == n && e.data = d) is true by definition
01:29:48 <elliott> you can construct such an element structure
01:29:55 <elliott> nddrylliog: the point is that you've just said it exists, not where it is
01:29:58 <nddrylliog> so "e: element array'" replaces the '#' notation
01:30:01 <elliott> basically that statement is logically nonsense.
01:30:08 <elliott> your # notation makes no sense :)
01:30:20 <nddrylliog> when I wrote that, I knew it would be a nightmare to implement
01:30:22 <elliott> well it does intuitively, but not from a logic point of view at all
01:30:36 <elliott> and it would also hold you back a bit i think as far as what propositions you could construct
01:30:57 <elliott> nddrylliog: my insert is also longer because i removed the "future value" stuff and replaced it with a saner functional approach :)
01:31:10 <elliott> nddrylliog: you may want to rephrase the whole thing as array.insert's type signature returning a certificate
01:31:21 <elliott> basically return a tuple of (array', proof of the proposition on array')
01:31:38 <elliott> (you can have language support for ignoring the proof but absorbing it into the "environment" to make actually using the function easier)
01:33:10 <nddrylliog> what do you mean make using the function easier?
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01:33:40 <elliott> nddrylliog: as in, without having to explicitly say "first_tuple_element result"
01:34:02 <elliott> you could e.g. say that %x takes the first element of tuple x, but remembers the second one for the proof system
01:34:21 <elliott> nddrylliog: oh and my insert was actually an append i just realised
01:34:25 <elliott> which is why it was different to yours
01:35:21 <nddrylliog> but we can do e.index == i, no big deal
01:36:16 <elliott> nddrylliog: just an example
01:36:24 <elliott> nddrylliog: also just saying e.index == i isn't really enough
01:36:35 <elliott> nddrylliog: you'd want to also demonstrate that every element at i and after in the original array is at i+1
01:36:39 <elliott> to make managing things easier
01:38:09 <nddrylliog> since we have (e1, e2: element array) => (e1.index != e2.index)
01:38:24 <nddrylliog> so either the compiler would say that insert is invalid
01:38:41 <nddrylliog> either it would figure out that the only way to do it is to move all the elements on the right of it
01:38:50 <nddrylliog> because then we'd have two elements with index i
01:39:02 <elliott> here's how i would write insert's type signature, Coq-style (since Coq is less ambiguous ... :))
01:40:22 <elliott> insert : forall (array : Array), forall (i : Index array), ElementType -> (Sigma (array' : Array), (forall (j : Index array), j < i -> ... bleh
01:40:30 <nddrylliog> oh btw, "i think your language would advance the state of the art about 20 years." => yes, I figure that it's better to work on such a language even if it's not an easy problem, rather than try to re-implement Java/C# done right (ie. ooc)
01:40:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: i think using any kind of non-opaque integer for index types is a bad idea.
01:40:54 <elliott> because the propositions get really gnarly :)
01:41:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: have an opaque index type or something
01:42:57 <nddrylliog> the only opaque I know is C-struct-opaque and I don't see how it applies
01:43:10 <elliott> nddrylliog: I mean exactly that. as in, you don't know that an (Index array) is a number.
01:44:48 <nddrylliog> then you could even implement a hashtable on top of that dynamic array, haha :)
01:46:13 <elliott> nddrylliog: it does change much
01:46:21 <elliott> because it lets your propositions be less ugly :P
01:46:39 <elliott> well see my line of coq above. it got ugly.
01:46:51 <elliott> nddrylliog: and the nice thing is you'd need no < relations or whatever.
01:46:58 <elliott> (Index array) is always addressable, no exceptions.
01:47:09 <elliott> and also, you know, maybe the compiler will think of a better representation of indices for your very specific type of data, because it has to be a genius already :)
01:47:28 <elliott> (note: I'm interested in your ideas, don't take my mocking seriously :P)
01:47:43 <nddrylliog> 256-elements array = use chars for indices \o/ (on an 8-bit processor, obviously - otherwise we're losing the perf. improvement)
01:48:01 <nddrylliog> elliott: I don't take it seriously :) it's very constructive so far
01:48:11 <nddrylliog> elliott: from what I can see, Coq quickly gets clumsy.. probably because it works
01:48:28 <elliott> nddrylliog: oh Coq isn't a party. but yes, it works. frama-c seems nice enough. coq is a good backend at least :P
01:49:01 <nddrylliog> elliott: let's talk about your element { data } part
01:49:07 <elliott> nddrylliog: the thing is that Coq was designed by taking a core, simple logic to ensure correctness, and then the rest was built on top of that
01:49:16 <elliott> rather than starting with convenience and ending with a mess like a lot of people :P
01:49:19 <nddrylliog> elliott: somehow it bothers me to 'declare' index inside element, because it somehow makes me think the compiler will store it
01:49:22 <elliott> nddrylliog: well i don't think your element structure even makes much sense.
01:49:39 <nddrylliog> but.. not so much because from all the constraints it can be deduced that it's unnecessary to store it
01:49:41 <elliott> elements aren't "real", there are just valid indices that you can access.
01:49:48 <elliott> really you want an index type.
01:50:10 <elliott> which could even be defined to be index array := n | 0 <= n < size array.
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01:51:33 <nddrylliog> well we have to be able to express that elements belong to the array and that they have a data.. and they definitely all have an index associated
01:51:48 <nddrylliog> I'd have trouble defining the 'get' operation without element.index :)
01:52:01 <elliott> nddrylliog: no you wouldn't
01:52:10 <elliott> get : (array:Array) -> Index array -> ElementType
01:52:19 <elliott> (assuming all arrays have the same type of element for simplicity)
01:52:45 <elliott> nddrylliog: then you can prove that "forall idx:(Index array), exists (e:ElementType), get array idx == e"
01:52:49 <elliott> because that's just a direct restatement of the function
01:52:56 <elliott> well this would be easier to implement. :p
01:53:13 <nddrylliog> easier to make a compiler for it, or easier to implement get in that language?
01:53:13 <elliott> you'd likely have to actually implement arrays at some level... but then your genius layer takes care of that :)
01:53:23 <nddrylliog> I'm still not seeing your implementation of get, only the function's signature
01:53:59 <nddrylliog> the point is, my (horrible, sketchy, ambiguous, not purely functional, unimplementable) language does away with that array primitive
01:54:07 <elliott> there is no implementation there.
01:54:16 <elliott> nddrylliog: no, in your language _everything_ is a primitive.
01:54:28 <elliott> nddrylliog: ok, well let's put it this way
01:54:37 <elliott> nddrylliog: let's imagine a proposition IsArray T, where T is a type.
01:55:38 <elliott> nddrylliog: IsArray Ary := exists (Index : Ary -> Type | exists (get : Ary -> Index Ary -> ElemType))
01:55:42 <elliott> (ignoring the consecutive things FOR NOW)
01:55:54 <elliott> nddrylliog: then your language pretty much takes IsArray and comes up with a type that fits.
01:56:01 <elliott> ofc you'd likely want to specify how index behaves more.
01:57:58 <nddrylliog> nah nah nah don't "whatever" me - speak your mind
01:59:05 <elliott> nddrylliog: no no no that was me speaking my mind
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01:59:18 <elliott> "but whatever" was just me breaking out of the train of thought as it became too complicated :)
02:00:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: you may want to become rather proficient with formal logic if you're embarking on this endeavour. :p
02:00:53 <elliott> Recursive call to slow_fib has principal argument equal to
02:00:53 <elliott> instead of one of the following variables: n0 n1.
02:01:47 <nddrylliog> I think I have something simpler in mind :)
02:02:02 <elliott> nddrylliog: what simpler thing?
02:02:45 <elliott> Toplevel input, characters 142-154:
02:02:45 <elliott> Error: This clause is redundant.
02:03:11 <nddrylliog> haha :D. This is Coq's error messages?
02:03:20 <elliott> Fixpoint fibonacci (n:nat) : Z :=
02:03:21 <elliott> | S (S n as p) => fibonacci p + fibonacci n
02:03:33 <elliott> recursive functions in Coq have to be written... anally
02:03:37 <elliott> since it has to ensure termination
02:04:03 <zzo38> I have made TeX to read its own output.
02:05:33 <elliott> it doesn't have that stupid principle argument why do you think i'm writing it like this coq
02:05:36 <elliott> what have i ever done to you
02:05:50 <zzo38> nddrylliog: What do you think?
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02:06:22 <nddrylliog> zzo38: dunno, maybe some child abuse story
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02:07:14 <nddrylliog> zzo38: okay, I was messing with you. But making TeX do all sorts of weird stuff sounds extremely cool. Really.
02:07:30 <elliott> nddrylliog: he's done underload in tex
02:07:34 <elliott> which kinda puts yours to shame :P
02:07:47 <nddrylliog> oh and mine doesn't work on all examples, too
02:08:16 <elliott> zzo38: isn't your current project a magic the gathering card generator based on TeX that's written in an underload-like language implemented in tex? i forget how texnicard is structured exactly
02:09:04 <zzo38> elliott: Something like that. It is not specific to Magic: the Gathering, and it uses TeX and METAFONT, but the main program is a C program (using Enhanced CWEB), it has a built-in programming language something like Underload (although more like dc than like Underload).
02:09:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: sometimes Coq's error messages are even better: "Anomaly: uncaught exception Not_found. Please report."
02:09:54 <elliott> (ok so the Program system is experimental.)
02:10:54 <Sgeo> I should learn Coq. And Standard ML. And Erlang. And Esperanto.
02:11:40 <Sgeo> I love some Lojban words, like their "we"s. English should import those wes
02:12:17 <zzo38> (TeXnicard is less specific to Magic: the Gathering than Magic Set Editor)
02:13:18 <elliott> nddrylliog: (match Fib0 return Fib n 0 with x => x end)
02:13:27 <elliott> looks like i have to prove that 0 = 0
02:13:58 <nddrylliog> elliott: "prove me, baby. prove me good"
02:14:02 <elliott> hm wait i thought dependent pattern matching was meant to solve problems like this :D
02:14:05 <elliott> now how do you use it again...
02:17:56 <nddrylliog> elliott: you're more or less scaring my ass off Coq :)
02:18:04 <elliott> nddrylliog: oh i'm actually just pretty stupid
02:18:18 <nddrylliog> elliott: not a relief - not what it looks like
02:18:23 <elliott> but coq is a great way to prove to yourself that you're stupid in general
02:18:41 <elliott> nddrylliog: well i may be giving you the misleading impression that i'm actually any good at Coq at all, which I am not
02:20:00 <nddrylliog> elliott: oh I do smell the faint odor of someone trying to pretend he knows more than he does - but it's not bothering me :)
02:20:36 <Sgeo> Of course Sensei's Library uses custom wiki software. Why wouldn't it?
02:20:51 <Sgeo> Oh, it's based on PhpWiki
02:21:12 <elliott> nddrylliog: oh i make no pretensions about knowing what i'm doing
02:21:21 <Sgeo> "The source could (if at all) only be published on alt.tasteless.jokes."
02:21:25 <elliott> nddrylliog: i just know that a lot of things REALLY DON'T WORK, mostly because i tired them
02:22:05 <elliott> Toplevel input, characters 1068-1072:
02:22:05 <elliott> slow_fib : forall n : nat, Sigma nat (Fib n)
02:22:08 <elliott> The term "Fib0" has type "Fib 0 0" while it is expected to have type
02:22:26 <elliott> | witness fibp _ => fibn + fibp
02:22:34 <elliott> sorry for flooding, actually no i'm not, you all had to see that.
02:22:57 <nddrylliog> seriously, "witness" is a keyword in Coq?
02:24:30 <elliott> nddrylliog: don't worry, it doesn't feel so much like an interrogation, as a shouting match
02:25:48 <elliott> Recursive definition of slow_fib is ill-formed.
02:26:11 <elliott> i'll tell it i'm going to use a termination proposition
02:26:15 <elliott> and then add it as an axiom
02:29:32 <elliott> now if you'll EXCUSE me, I'm going to devote 15 minutes of my life to watching two British dolts walk around in a computer game made out of 1 m^3 blocks being confused and doing lots of silly things.
02:29:39 <elliott> because my time has no value!
02:31:23 <nddrylliog> I'm probably going to die of a haha overload.
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02:43:57 <nddrylliog> seriously, cereals and coma sound good right now.
02:44:25 <oerjan> you've turned nddrylliog into a cereal killer!
02:45:50 <elliott> "I'm going to eat cereal and then ENTER A VEGETATIVE STATE."
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02:47:32 <nddrylliog> elliott: and ya, I can't really call that sleep, when I just pass out
02:47:35 <elliott> ah yes, the famed computer science codenames
02:48:20 <nddrylliog> one would think that to be rather coqy.
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03:17:08 <elliott> The term "prfp" has type "(fun H : nat => Fib ?119 ?120) n2"
03:17:08 <elliott> while it is expected to have type "Fib (S ?119) ?118".
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03:29:49 <quintopia> don't let ghc get you down, hugs, you're okay with me
03:30:18 <elliott> how cute, quintopia travelled here from 2003
03:30:29 <elliott> hi quintopia, we've invented science while you're away
03:30:33 <elliott> also there's this thing called the "internet" now
03:31:05 <quintopia> elliott: even the woefully outdated need love too
04:02:44 <Sgeo> She's talking to me again
04:02:58 <Sgeo> Or, well, said one thing, but basically it said that we're talking
04:03:27 <elliott> I like how I can predict who "she" is by telepathy!
04:03:48 <Sgeo> elliott, or by memory
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04:04:42 <oerjan> elliott: that's because the subject is telepathetic
04:05:40 <Sgeo> What? Have I talked about more than one person recently who I feared stopped talking to me?
04:08:16 <elliott> i tend to try and forget everything you say very quickl
04:23:02 <Sgeo> The religious girl
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04:29:55 <zzo38> I also made TeX-js, although so far the only commands that work are \catcode and \message
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04:53:01 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if Kitten build scripts should be written in rc rather than sh
04:53:50 <zzo38> elliott: How can I know where to mail it to?
04:54:24 <elliott> zzo38: 37.5A Cabbles Street, Vistum Street, Orkney
04:55:19 <zzo38> I have no opinion about whether they should be in rc or sh, but if someone does, they would need to know where to send the postcard.
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10:19:12 <Ilari> Now the rumours are about 31st...
10:40:17 <Ilari> Looks like this IPv4 depletion will be a giant clusterfuck (in the best case).
10:43:05 <Ilari> And there's no guarantees that there won't be a RIR depletion(!) event before the World IPv6 day...
10:47:40 <Ilari> Basically, the current official estimates for APNIC depletion are in end of September. But there have been speculations about April and May...
10:49:11 <quintopia> how much does the official estimate assume demand will rise as depletion date approaches
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10:53:04 <Ilari> IIRC, the model is exponential or quadric demand...
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10:55:23 <Ilari> I think one of the estimates uses exponential model and one uses quadric model. But the amount of data those use is rather large, so effects from IANA depletion (including effects before it) are not taken into account...
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16:15:01 <fizzie> variable: If you don't like the single smiley, you probably hate the 1F600 block: http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1F600.pdf
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16:17:33 <fizzie> Includes such gems as the CAT FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY, the KISSING CAT FACE WITH CLOSED EYES, and the {SEE,HEAR,SPEAK}-NO-EVIL MONKEY triplet.
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16:19:22 <Ilari> Sadly those are astral characters... ☹
16:19:57 <fizzie> Well, we'll always have the snowman.
16:20:30 <fizzie> And the nicely zen U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW.
16:20:45 <fizzie> "What, is that, like, a man?"
16:21:08 <fizzie> (It's actually just snowman without a snowfall background.)
16:22:42 <Ilari> It is a weather symbol?
16:23:00 <fizzie> It's for "light snow"; and the BLACK SNOWMAN is for "heavy snow".
16:29:32 <variable> its like someone said "we have all these code pages - so lets use them for our random (crappy) art!
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17:05:22 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Sadly those are astral characters... ☹ <-- ?
17:06:04 <fizzie> Characters outside the BMP are called "astral".
17:06:16 <Vorpal> why is it sad they are outside BMP?
17:06:31 <fizzie> That I don't know; maybe because those are still often broken?
17:09:25 <Ilari> Yeah, sometimes BMP characters work but characters outside it are broken.
17:11:58 <coppro> UTF-16 applications in particular hate astral characters
17:12:00 <fizzie> I can believe there's quite a lot of Java code that doesn't do UTF-16 properly, just assumes a "char" can hold any character.
17:12:04 <coppro> because often they're really using UCS-2
17:12:29 <coppro> also, there are no easy fonts to cover the astral planes like unifont
17:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Did I mention that the Scottish 5th-year computing course states in no uncertain terms that Unicode is a 16-bit character encoding?
17:14:02 <Sgeo> Lies to Children?
17:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Lies to children are oversimplifications which are needed for basic understanding, not blatant falsehoods.
17:15:29 <olsner> and it's probably not so much lies as merely "insufficient clue when teaching was made"
17:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The Manager demanded a clear glass window in his room. To fucking look at what, I asked him. Your room doesn't have a hole leading to the outside. Your room doesn't have a view of anything. The best I can do is put in a window that is 2 feet away from a stone wall.]]
17:16:28 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: there is one Scottish 5th-year computing course?
17:16:54 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: all the post-secondaries are standardized or something?
17:17:32 <coppro> write angry letters to newspapers about them teaching falsehood
17:17:36 <coppro> with detailed citations
17:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> (Which is different in Scotland and England for hysterical raisins.)
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17:21:13 <Phantom_Hoover> (Well, not so much hysterical as the fact that the two have entirely separate education systems.)
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17:26:21 <Ilari> Hah... Post that calls Somalia "no longer a nation but an area on the map.". :-)
17:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> [[I've started project "Fuck The World", a top secret attempt to funnel magma to the outside. I'll kill those elephants. I'll kill *_all_* those fucking elephants.]]
17:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> This is even funnier than Tom Francis. This is even funnier than the Yogscast.
17:32:16 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I've read Boatmurdered
17:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, spoil it and you and all you care about will die.
17:46:28 <olsner> hmm, the english for "execution by firing squad" is boring
17:46:32 <Sgeo> Isn't part of the problem with PHP the standard library?
17:54:42 <olsner> mostly that it's a proper word
17:55:37 <olsner> "arkebusering", iirc arcebus means rifle in some language like latin
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18:05:59 <Gregor> You know who else liked invoking Godwin's law? HITLER.
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18:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Dwarf Fortress world generation + Minecraft gameplay: the best thing ever?
18:09:51 <elliott> Isn't DF gameplay just MC gameplay++?
18:11:03 <elliott> 16:43:23 <variable> its like someone said "we have all these code pages - so lets use them for our random (crappy) art!
18:11:09 <elliott> variable: all the crap in unicode is for backwards-compatibility.
18:11:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think partly, but you definitely mine a lot...
18:11:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, but don't you mine by finding some dwarfs and telling them to go and mine?
18:12:07 <elliott> variable: for instance the emoji block was recently added to unicode for interoperability, so some unicode character names actually specify a colour now :)
18:12:10 <pikhq> elliott: And it has a roguelike mode.
18:12:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not that I know of, no.
18:12:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I believe you act as yourself in the game, and keeping the dwarves alive is just your goal.
18:12:52 <pikhq> elliott: You just order around the dwarves.
18:13:02 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. But people on the subreddit talk about mining a lot.
18:13:12 <elliott> I guess you can basically order a dwarf around as a third-person-view player.
18:13:16 <pikhq> Yes, you order them to mine a lot. They're effing dwarves!
18:13:24 <variable> damn - why can't I find the real hustle online that doesn't forever to buffer :-\
18:13:37 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but how much mining is "manual"?
18:13:54 <elliott> Oh my, the Let's Play archive looks all modern now.
18:14:22 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, do you have to tell it how to branch the mine? Or does it manage it itself?
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18:14:47 <pikhq> elliott: Well, if you don't tell it what to do it'll try doing its own thing.
18:14:55 <pikhq> Its own thing may just be bloody stupid, however.
18:15:26 <pikhq> "Let's mine right next to a magma flow. That's a good OH GOD WHY IS MY FLESH MELTING! OH, THE MIASMA!"
18:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> (This leads to one of the fundamental tenets of Boatmurdered, i.e. elephant massacres.)
18:15:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ha, I just started reading Boatmurdered.
18:15:45 <elliott> [[In a nutshell, Dwarf Fortress is best described as a 2-D base building game in the theme of Dungeon Keeper. The concept is simple, the graphics are simple; but the depth of the game is fairly awesome. (Even more amazing when you realize it is all the product of a single man gaming company.)
18:15:45 <elliott> The dwarves you "control" are somewhat autonomous. They have likes, dislikes, and needs. While you can assign them specific duties and set basic orders, they have minds of their own and will act according to how they feel. You can give them a job, but that doesn't always mean they'll do it right away. Injuries to all animals and dwarves are tracked, down to internal organs and body parts. Dwarves have moods that are affected by the things around
18:15:45 <elliott> them. They can decide to throw a party for their friends, or they might stress out under strain and suddenly kill each other with little to no warning. Female dwarves occasionally get pregnant and, if they are exposed to trauma (say a goblin siege); they very well might miscarry. Sad thoughts caused by things of that nature can lead dwarves to tantrums or even suicide.
18:15:50 <elliott> You begin with 7 dwarves and scarce few supplies at the face of a mountain. Your only objective is to survive the elements while building yourself as cool a fortress as you possibly can before you inevitably die. Simple enough, yes?]]
18:15:59 <elliott> I WONDER IF MY COMPUTER CAN HANDLE DWARF FORTRESS.
18:16:40 <elliott> MC is mainly CPU-intensive...
18:16:47 <elliott> (And even then not *that* much.)
18:16:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure, the GPU has a very easy job.
18:17:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It just has to render gigantic squares, not any detail at all.
18:17:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The CPU has to simulate like 16x16 chunks.
18:17:34 <elliott> OK, the 9x9 chunks are loaded.
18:17:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 144*144*128 = 2,654,208.
18:18:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Answer: It's simulating MC's warped version of physics on two and a half million blocks every frame.
18:18:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It still has to *look* at them to figure out *if* anything is happening.
18:18:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Especially water and lava flow are intensive.
18:18:49 <elliott> Yes, the game could be optimised, but it's never going to run on a 486.
18:19:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THE DWARF FORTRESS INTRO IS AMAZING
18:20:01 <elliott> Hey, the title screen gives me an even longer name with which to refer to the game!
18:20:15 <elliott> Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress: Histories of Cupidity and Diligence, v0.31.188
18:20:25 * Sgeo imagines GoTris
18:20:53 * Sgeo should shut up
18:20:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG DWARF FORTRESS IS HARDCORE WITHOUT A NUMPAD.
18:21:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: On your /laptop/?
18:21:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, an 18" lugtop.
18:22:31 <elliott> lmao, you can make a 17x17 world
18:22:35 <fizzie> They put numpads in ~16" laptops nowadays.
18:22:36 <elliott> and the largest is 257x257
18:22:58 <fizzie> Also it could be one of those fancy external numpads.
18:23:26 <elliott> World generation is going pretty fast for me.
18:23:35 <elliott> I think it's almost done with the default settings.
18:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a video on YouTube of someone massacring some elves he didn't like by opening a portal to hell and giving the flood of demons convenient stairs into their village.
18:24:51 <elliott> HOW DO I CHOOSE WHERE TO PUT MY FORTRESS.
18:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> More "gaping hole in the adamantine seal over a hole in what amounts to bedrock in DF".
18:26:22 <elliott> Holy shit this is complicated.
18:26:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've always thought that the Nether's roof should be the world's floor.
18:26:43 <elliott> And you should enter the Nether by instead somehow poking a hole in bedrock.
18:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> If the chunk height could actually be extended like that, adding the Nether beneath the world would be the least thing to do.
18:27:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Quickstart_guide
18:27:46 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[afk].
18:27:56 <elliott> Actually the floating down should just be accomplished by putting sand down there.
18:28:03 <elliott> It's OK if things are manual, Notch.
18:28:41 <elliott> Oh, I did not actually realise I could customise my dwarves, so I guess I just have some random dudes.
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19:22:34 <Sgeo> Is Disallow: /?blockme= valid in robots.txt?
19:22:52 <Sgeo> For some reason, I was under the impression it had to end with /
19:24:03 <Deewiant> The "Disallow" field specifies a partial URI that is not to be visited. This can be a full path, or a partial path; any URI that starts with this value will not be retrieved. For example, Disallow: /help disallows both /help.html and /help/index.html, whereas Disallow: /help/ would disallow /help/index.html but allow /help.html.
19:25:45 <Sgeo> Anyways, don't visit http://senseis.xmp.net/?blockme=AccessBlocked unless you want your access to Sensei's Library blocked for 48 hours
19:25:50 * Sgeo is so intensely curious
19:27:17 <elliott> Access blocked for about 1 minutes because of misbehaving mirror script.
19:27:18 <elliott> See AccessBlocked for more information once you are unblocked again.
19:27:18 <elliott> If you would like to have a local copy of Sensei's Library,
19:27:18 <elliott> do not mirror this site, but download the SL Snapshot instead.
19:27:18 <elliott> It is less trouble for everyone.
19:27:36 <elliott> Clicked the AccessBlocked link:
19:27:38 <elliott> Access blocked for about 36 hours because of misbehaving mirror script.
19:30:01 <Ilari> Before one minute timeout?
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19:40:39 <Ilari> Well, Maybe "giant clusterfuck" was much too optimistic about IPv4 depletion....
19:46:01 <Sgeo> Oh ffs. Mahjong scares me, and I don't even know what it is. Just that some craptastic collection of computer games I had as a kid included some Mahjong game
19:47:33 <oerjan> finally, a job for zzo38!
19:47:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:48:34 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:48:55 <zzo38> Open the door and let me in!!
19:49:10 <zzo38> Open the door and let me in!!!!
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19:49:54 <zzo38> Open the door and let me out!!!
19:50:14 <zzo38> Open the door and let me in!!!!!!!!!!
19:50:20 <Sgeo> "The eternal battle between Helvetica and Arial: the two popular fonts are nigh indistinguishable to civilians, intolerably different to font snobs"
19:51:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Just let's use Computer Modern Sans Serif, then.
19:52:13 <zzo38> (Unless, of course, you do not like Computer Modern Sans Serif)
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19:53:00 <pikhq> Ilari: Yes, "giant clusterfuck" is way too optimistic at this point.
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19:54:38 <Ilari> Now the time window to deploy it would be 7 months (and even that might be optimistic...)
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20:07:13 <quintopia> zzo38: i thought about the language we were talking about and instead come up with possibly the most difficult to program language ever invented. I can't even tell if it's TC.
20:07:49 <zzo38> quintopia: Did you type the description?
20:08:49 <quintopia> zzo38: not yet. it's certainly not wiki-ready
20:10:25 <quintopia> but the basic paradigm is that the only way to do computation is by rearranging the program itself, and the only non-I/O operation is "mark this character to be moved to the end of the program at the end of the next pass"
20:10:48 <quintopia> aka, the program never grows or shrinks, just permutes
20:11:12 <quintopia> need to figure out the best way to add conditionals to it to ensure maximum chances of TCness
20:11:48 <zzo38> You might need also some external memory if the program cannot grow/shrink because otherwise you have limited memory which means is not TCness
20:13:28 <quintopia> actually, that's not true. i think i did come up with a way to make the program grow...
20:13:41 <zzo38> OK. What is the way to make the program grow?
20:14:11 <quintopia> select the same character repeatedly to be moved to the end. it'll only be deleted once, but appended multiple times.
20:14:40 <zzo38> OK, that can work, I think.
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20:15:43 <zzo38> I have been thinking of new kind of chess pieces that when your piece is capable of capturing an opponent's piece of the same kind, their piece can never capture yours (if it was their turn).
20:16:23 <zzo38> One kind is a Chinese cannon that jumps over only your own pieces, or a Chinese cannon that can jump over only opponent's pieces.
20:16:28 <quintopia> so two bishops on the same diagonal are protected from one another, basically
20:17:20 <zzo38> quintopia: I am refering to new kind of pieces. One piece can capture the other but not the other way around.
20:17:27 <elliott> <Sgeo> Oh ffs. Mahjong scares me, and I don't even know what it is. Just that some craptastic collection of computer games I had as a kid included some Mahjong game
20:18:18 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you know Chinese chess (Xiangqi)?
20:19:55 <zzo38> In Xiangqi there is one piece that can sometimes attack the opponent's piece of the same kind without being attacked back (but not always). The horse can do this. (Also, there is a way in which any piece other than the kings or advisors can, by having the target blocking the king's view; but this has to do with the rules and not with the pieces.)
20:20:51 -!- Behold has joined.
20:21:17 <zzo38> quintopia: OK. The horse in Xiangqi is like the knight in chess, but cannot jump over other pieces. The cannon moves like a rook when not capturing, but when it is capturing, there must be exactly one piece of any color in between the moving piece and the target piece.
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20:22:40 <zzo38> Xiangqi has a few other rules too. The kings and advisors must stay inside of their own palace, the elephants are not allowed to cross the river, and the kings are not allowed to look at each other.
20:22:42 <Sgeo> "scares" was the wrong word
20:22:59 <Sgeo> It's just... it puts me in mind of .. other games such as a 3d pacman thing
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20:23:09 <Sgeo> Actually, I should look for that game
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20:23:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have played Pacman with 3D view, called 3-Demon. But other idea is to make a Pacman game with 3D grid instead.
20:23:53 <Sgeo> zzo38, that wasn't it
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20:24:10 <Sgeo> It was a 3D grid like thing
20:24:16 <Sgeo> It was nonfree in both senses, iirc
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20:25:11 <Sgeo> Found the company
20:25:15 <Sgeo> That made the pack, anyway
20:25:25 <Sgeo> But it seems to have changed focus
20:25:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Also, some collections have game titled "Mahjong", but it is not always a real mahjong game, some are actually a different game properly called "mahjong solitaire". Mahjong solitaire is not the same game as mahjong although the same tiles are used.
20:25:56 <zzo38> (Nor is poker the same game as bridge, even though both games use the same cards.)
20:26:00 <Sgeo> zzo38, I wouldn't know whether it was real Mahjong or Mahjong solitaire
20:27:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: Real mahjong is played with four players. Mahjong solitaire is played by only one player. (Of course also they are entirely different games, but this is one way to tell the difference.)
20:27:20 <Sgeo> zzo38, I never played the thing
20:27:25 <quintopia> zzo38: we have differently-sized cards for bridge and poker
20:27:30 <Sgeo> I just saw the name in the collection and got bored and moved on
20:28:00 <Sgeo> Although the collection was for mostly single-player games, I think
20:28:02 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes there are differently sized cards, although they are basically the same kind of cards, for many card games.
20:28:10 <Sgeo> Although some of the games had multi-player modes
20:31:15 <zzo38> I also have a collection of single-player computer games, which are free and Free, but some of them require a few modifications if you want to compile them on Free compilers.
20:31:35 <zzo38> (This collection is called the CGA Collection, and it is not yet complete.)
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20:34:58 <zzo38> Invent a game called "Rust monsters has to eat, too"
20:38:51 <Zuu> I think he is
20:40:28 <zzo38> What country is ".dk"?
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20:49:51 <quintopia> so how is it that database systems make complicated queries on structured files fast?
20:50:40 <zzo38> One of the best computer games I have designed is probably Xnazzyball (unfortunately using a proprietary system that works only on Windows; later I might rewrite it in C/Enhanced CWEB).
20:51:06 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know. Maybe some index tree? Is there a book about such things?
20:51:23 <zzo38> Is there such a database program written by literate programming, then you can learn?
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21:06:45 <zzo38> Do you like PBM file? (This is what TeXnicard uses as intermediate output. It goes .cards -> .tex & .mf; .mf -> .tfm & .*gf; .tex & .tfm -> .dvi; .dvi & .*gf -> .pbm & ImageMagick command-line; .pbm & ImageMagick command-line -> various output formats.)
21:07:50 <quintopia> zzo38: how close is texnicard to being as full featured as Magic Set Editor? (in terms of the aspects that aren't specific to MTG)
21:08:30 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> bool isAnswer(int num) { return (num == 42 ? true : false);}
21:08:50 <Sgeo> Someone else noticed...
21:09:27 <zzo38> quintopia: That is unfortunately a difficult question to answer. The best way is to look at the code and decide for yourself (since you may have different measures?).
21:09:59 <quintopia> zzo38: i've never used MSE, so i can't really compare myself :P
21:11:24 <zzo38> Unfortunately it takes a while to write (I think I have most of the core program done except for most of the GF/DVI stuff, but the Plain TeXnicard metatemplate is probably very incomplete. I am currently doing the GF/DVI stuff.
21:13:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:13:53 <zzo38> quintopia: However, if you would like to help with any parts of it (including documentation, testing, templates, suggestions, discussion, etc) you can notify me and I will add your repo.or.cz username into the Extra repository.
21:14:13 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you just missed me explaining how I made a fool of myself in another channel
21:15:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, your brain has been POISONED by IMPERATIVE THINKING.
21:16:31 <zzo38> I am not even sure of the use of the isAnswer function, except possibly where function pointers are used (and the "?true:false" part is unnecessary)
21:18:10 <zzo38> I do need some help with some parts of TeXnicard, so please notify me if you can help with this kind of stuff!!
21:19:55 <zzo38> I know one feature MSE has specific to Magic: the Gathering, is the command to export to Apprentice; I am not sure if there are others. With TeXnicard, exporting to Apprentice must be done in a template just like any other exporting must be.
21:25:37 <quintopia> kthx zzo38 but i don't care about card games really
21:28:16 <zzo38> quintopia: OK, but do you know anyone else who might help with these kind of things?
21:28:58 <elliott> I know my long lost half-brother's cousin, Melvinoid.
21:29:20 <zzo38> elliott: Expert at what?
21:30:11 <zzo38> elliott: Is he on this IRC?
21:30:27 <elliott> I could send him some mail but he lives in Africa so the post takes a long time to arrive.
21:32:02 <elliott> zzo38: Sorry, he actually does not exist.
21:32:37 <Phantom_Hoover> He is backpedalling so that he can keep Melvinoid to himself.
21:32:38 <zzo38> elliott: Yes it is strange to know your long lost half-brother's cousin, I was partially doubting his existence.
21:33:08 <zzo38> (But it is possible some people do)
21:33:14 <Sgeo> He doesn't exist because you murdered him.
21:33:27 <Sgeo> Dammit, voices don't transmit over IRC
21:33:46 <zzo38> Sgeo: If you have a microphone in your computer, you can record it.
21:36:30 <elliott> church: SO ARE YOU, ALONZO
21:36:44 <church> the how am I watching SCTV
21:36:54 <church> its not even on the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR
21:37:01 <Sgeo> When did church die?
21:38:02 -!- church has changed nick to omen.
21:38:31 <omen> womp womp wommmp
21:38:54 <omen> so whats so esoteric about this place then
21:39:11 <zzo38> omen: Esoteric computer programming.
21:39:33 <omen> zzo38: haha, serious?
21:39:43 <zzo38> omen: Well, sort of.
21:39:59 <omen> a program named Esoteric?
21:40:04 <elliott> Using programs to create magicke.
21:40:22 <zzo38> omen: See the wiki for more information: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/
21:40:59 <zzo38> However, a lot of things are discussed in this channel, not only esoteric computer programming.
21:42:04 <zzo38> omen: Read the various pages in the wiki to learn some things.
21:42:19 <zzo38> (Try the page titled "Esoteric programming language" if you want a description)
21:43:08 <zzo38> "An esoteric programming language is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use."
21:43:41 <zzo38> omen: Does that help?
21:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> omen, esoteric programming is that which is too crazy to use.
21:44:10 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, so BancSTAR is considered esoteric?
21:44:40 <Sgeo> So PSOX is not esoteric?
21:44:56 <zzo38> Not everyone has quite the same ideas of what is esoteric programming.
21:45:14 <zzo38> Because there is some ambiguous areas. Sometimes you can say some are quasi-esoteric.
21:46:42 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Sometimes.
21:47:01 <elliott> PSOX is just boring and lame.
21:47:30 <zzo38> PSOX is not a programming language, it is a I/O layer.
21:47:55 <Sgeo> It's still esoteric programming, just not a language
21:48:34 <elliott> Arguably, the things you send to it are programs.
21:49:24 <Sgeo> Would PSOX2, as once described here, have been more of a language? Or the same
21:50:47 <elliott> Since it'd just forward the input on.
21:51:11 <Sgeo> I think we're thinking of two different PSOX2s
21:51:19 <Sgeo> I meant the one with the turing-complete thingy
21:54:45 <elliott> I was talking about the one that is catbus.
21:55:35 <zzo38> There is also things, such as, dc has something similar to the STASH and RETRIEVE commands in INTERCAL, as well as something similar to the RESUME command in INTERCAL.
21:58:12 <zzo38> omen: Do you know dc or INTERCAL? INTERCAL is the first esoteric programming language, while dc is a UNIX arbitrary precision desk calculator program.
22:00:30 <omen> never heard of this
22:00:53 <zzo38> Learn INTERCAL, then: http://esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL
22:01:19 <omen> and why would I do that
22:01:32 <omen> especially if you are already so informed
22:01:33 <elliott> omen sounds boring, let's scare him away.
22:01:51 -!- elliott has set topic: For the intelligent (and not-so-intelligent) discussion of ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ONLY | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
22:01:56 <zzo38> omen: Just in case you are interested, that is only.
22:02:00 <elliott> omen: That line was not a line about esoteric programming languages.
22:02:23 -!- zzo38 has set topic: For the intelligent (and not-so-intelligent) discussion of ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ONLY | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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22:06:08 <omen> for the record
22:06:20 <omen> more melancholy and bored
22:06:25 <omen> than scared, thanks.
22:06:30 -!- omen has left (?).
22:06:37 * Sgeo shoots elliott
22:07:13 <Sgeo> Deliberately pshing people away annoys me
22:07:16 <elliott> he obviously had not interest in programming or esolangs
22:07:31 <elliott> <church> the how am I watching SCTV
22:07:31 <elliott> <church> its not even on the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIR
22:07:31 <elliott> <Sgeo> When did church die?
22:07:38 <elliott> ^^^ anybody who says these lines is a terrible person
22:08:01 <elliott> evidence of no interest, apart from the fact that he had no idea what the channel was about:
22:08:01 <elliott> <zzo38> Learn INTERCAL, then: http://esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL
22:08:02 <elliott> <omen> and why would I do that
22:08:02 <elliott> <omen> especially if you are already so informed
22:08:31 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L40f39bPII
22:09:09 <olsner> (yes, that's me posting one of those "funny youtube videos")
22:09:50 <elliott> olsner: Maybe this is what Vorpal is really like.
22:09:58 <olsner> elliott: one can only hope
22:10:12 <elliott> olsner: IRC is the only place he can act normal. well ok vaguely normal.
22:13:12 <olsner> "what what what what in the butt"? I don't think that's how it goes
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22:32:38 <Ilari> Huston said failure rate of 6to4 is 15% on reverse path... That would imply total failure rate of something like 30%...
22:34:31 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
22:35:50 <Ilari> Wonder what's failure rate on backward path if forward path is good...
22:39:55 <Ilari> Of course, for provoding "native" IPv6, there's choice of "last mile" technology...
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23:09:07 <Ilari> What a freaking CF was handling that swine flu... Major shoot-in-the-foot for vaccination programs...
23:17:10 <th3b0m> could someone help me?
23:17:22 <zzo38> th3b0m: With what?
23:17:36 <th3b0m> i wanna make a permanent irc channel...
23:17:47 <zzo38> th3b0m: On Freenode?
23:18:10 <zzo38> First you need to register with NS REGISTER and then register the channel with CS REGISTER.
23:18:21 <elliott> this is not a support channel
23:18:32 <zzo38> (Use NS HELP REGISTER for help about registration of nickname, and CS HELP REGISTER for help about registration of channel.)
23:18:42 <zzo38> And, like elliott said, the support channel is #freenode not this one.
23:18:54 <th3b0m> so ok thankyou for helping me
23:20:16 <th3b0m> i just tryed doing that and it said i hadnt joined a channel...
23:20:30 <zzo38> th3b0m: You might have to enter /RAW before the command, some IRC clients require that.
23:20:51 <zzo38> Or you might have to use a menu. Some IRC clients use menus.
23:25:11 <th3b0m> well, i got the registration of my nickname working correctly
23:25:32 -!- yorick has quit (K-Lined).
23:25:41 <zzo38> th3b0m: You need to complete the verification.
23:25:46 <th3b0m> it was : /RAW NS REGISTER (password) (my email)
23:25:59 <zzo38> You should receive an email message that contains the verification code and instruction about how to complete verificiation.
23:26:06 <th3b0m> yeah i no but the e-mail hasnt arrived yet
23:26:20 <zzo38> OK, then you must wait for that before you can register the channel.
23:26:41 <th3b0m> and can i password protect the channel?
23:26:46 <zzo38> Remember this IRC network is meant for Free software/Open source projects, so most channels created should have something to do with that.
23:27:01 <zzo38> th3b0m: Yes, you can password protect the channel: MODE (channelname) +k (password)
23:27:08 <zzo38> (Again, enter /RAW before the command)
23:27:49 <th3b0m> i no stuff about hacking, and coding not irc stuff lol
23:28:21 <zzo38> th3b0m: Good, because computer programming is the main purpose of this IRC network.
23:28:48 <th3b0m> and our prposes for this channel
23:29:30 <zzo38> OK. However, although I can help you on this channel, the proper channel for discussing inquiries about this IRC network is the #freenode channel.
23:29:53 <elliott> 1337 hax0rz? W3 are l00king for Dz33em!
23:30:39 <zzo38> You can discuss hacking on your channel too, as long as it is related to the Free software and that you are not discussing anything illegal.
23:30:53 <zzo38> Do not use this network for illegal discussion.
23:31:15 <elliott> th3b0m: j01n us... type /j #2,000
23:31:22 <elliott> bcause we are two thousand str0ng
23:32:18 <elliott> th3b0m: there is a secret way to get in, try /join 0
23:32:28 -!- th3b0m has left (?).
23:32:43 <zzo38> This channel is logged anyone can read that. And anyways that won't work
23:33:03 <elliott> we've got a lot of off-topic morons today...
23:33:13 -!- th3b0m has joined.
23:33:20 <zzo38> elliott: Yes we have.
23:33:30 <elliott> th3b0m: no it worked, you have to wait five minutes after doing it
23:33:36 <zzo38> th3b0m: No it won't work.
23:33:49 <zzo38> The correct way is to type "#freenode" instead of "0"
23:34:15 <th3b0m> do can u give me the exact code for me to use?
23:34:56 -!- th3b0m has set topic.
23:35:03 <zzo38> th3b0m: I don't know the name of your channel.
23:35:06 <elliott> th3b0m: yes, type this: /part of us
23:35:15 -!- Deewiant has set topic: For the intelligent (and not-so-intelligent) discussion of ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ONLY | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:35:17 -!- th3b0m has set topic: For the intelligent (and not-so-intelligent) discussion of ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ONLY | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=DFor the intelligent (and not-so-intelligent) discussion of ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ONLY | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:35:20 -!- Deewiant has set topic: For the intelligent (and not-so-intelligent) discussion of ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES ONLY | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:35:49 <th3b0m> it leaves the channel!
23:36:10 <zzo38> I do not know the code to use to join your channel. Use your own channel name in place of the this one and read the XChat documentation for more help.
23:36:12 <elliott> th4t's b3cause y0u are not yet 4uthentic4ted
23:37:13 <zzo38> th3b0m: OK. Now use the CS REGISTER command to register your channel.
23:37:22 <elliott> th3b0m: authenticated with our hax0rzz!
23:37:56 <th3b0m> zzo38: how many diff channels can i have?
23:38:05 <th3b0m> elliot: how do i authenticate?
23:38:27 <elliott> th3b0m: you must disconnect and reconnect in an hour...i've started the process now
23:38:28 <zzo38> th3b0m: You have already authenticated. I do not know how many channels you are allowed to have, ask that question on #freenode
23:40:00 <th3b0m> thanks guys for ur help
23:40:14 <th3b0m> btw, how do u then join the channel when it has a password?
23:40:25 <zzo38> th3b0m: Give the password after the channel name in the JOIN command.
23:54:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:04:37 <zzo38> th3b0m: One more thing: Next time you connect to IRC, you will need to give your password that you registered your name with. If your IRC client has a prompt for a password anywhere, enter it there.
00:17:23 <oerjan> ^ul ((*)(*))(~:^*a~^Sa*~:^):^
00:17:23 <fungot> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************ ...too much output!
00:17:36 <oerjan> ^ul ((*)(*))(~:^*a~^(/)*Sa*~:^):^
00:17:36 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
00:19:31 <oerjan> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
00:19:31 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
00:20:03 <oerjan> hm mine is shorter than the wiki's
00:20:20 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you able to help with TeXnicard at all? Alternatively, can you suggest what additional functions you think should be predefined in Plain TeXnicard (the "plain.cards" file)?
00:20:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Can you shorten: ((*)(*)) to ((*):) ?
00:21:23 <oerjan> ^ul ((*):)(~:^*a~^(/)*Sa*~:^):^
00:21:23 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
00:22:44 <quintopia> is that the shortest way to produce exponentially growing output in ul?
00:23:26 <elliott> I think that's quite easy because you have multiplication
00:23:28 <oerjan> ^ul (*)(~:*:(/)*S~:^):^
00:23:28 <fungot> **/****/********/****************/********************************/****************************************************************/********************************************************************************************************************************/*************************************************************** ...too much output!
00:24:56 <elliott> how do i turn (a)(b) into (a)(a)(b)
00:25:15 <elliott> (a)(b) -~> (b)(a) -:> (b)(a)(a) ... hmm
00:25:18 <elliott> oerjan: I know you can do dip
00:26:23 <elliott> i'll wait until oerjan writes a b -> a a b, and then write the rest :
00:27:56 <elliott> oerjan: how do you do a simple infinite loop again?
00:29:02 <elliott> ^ul (:*)()((a~a:*~*^^S)~a*^:^):^
00:29:11 <elliott> that's meant to be 2^1, 2^2, 2^3, ...
00:29:41 <elliott> 2 1 { { [[a b -> a a b]] exponentiate print } dip dup exec } dup exec
00:30:48 <zzo38> It would mean something similar that you did could also be used in TeXnicard to manipulate the stack this way, although you would ordinarily do it with temporary variables instead, probably (like in dc).
00:31:01 <oerjan> a b -> a a b is not a way to increment a number, anyway
00:31:21 <zzo38> I wrote a way to increment a number in the Talk:Underload page in the wiki.
00:31:54 <elliott> oerjan: i wasn't incrementing it...
00:32:06 <elliott> oerjan: f(0) = 1; f(n+1) = 2^f(n)
00:32:17 <elliott> oerjan: done iteratively: x=1; while true: x=2^x
00:32:29 <elliott> oerjan: the duplication is to turn
00:32:34 <elliott> 2 exponent -> 2 2 exponent
00:32:47 <elliott> which becomes the new exponent
00:33:54 -!- Behold has joined.
00:34:01 <elliott> oerjan: so my loop must be wrong
00:34:14 <elliott> <elliott> ^ul (:*)()a~a:*~*^^S
00:34:15 <fungot> elliott: is evoli whitewashed? :p
00:34:16 <elliott> that's the program sans loop
00:34:36 <Deewiant> Without knowing any underload: if you print the exponent, don't you need to dup it first to not lose it
00:34:43 <elliott> Deewiant: er yes thanks :P
00:34:53 <elliott> oerjan: (:*)(){a~a:*~*^^:S(/)S} -- this is the program, where {} is an infinite loop
00:35:19 <elliott> ^ul (:*)()((a~a:*~*^^:S(/)S)~a*^:^):^
00:35:19 <fungot> :*/:*:*/:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/ ...too much stack!
00:35:28 <elliott> <oerjan> ^ul (*)(~:*:(/)*S~:^):^
00:35:45 <oerjan> mine only does n -> 2*n
00:35:55 <elliott> oerjan: but the result is still exponential
00:36:37 <zzo38> Deewiant: Do you know dc?
00:36:56 <elliott> ^ul (:*)()((a~a:*~*^^:(/)*S(/))~a*^:^):^
00:37:01 <elliott> ^ul (:*)()((a~a:*~*^^:(/)*S)~a*^:^):^
00:37:01 <fungot> :*/:*:*/:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/ ...too much stack!
00:37:05 <elliott> ^ul (:*)()((a~a:*~**^:(/)*S)~a*^:^):^
00:37:11 <elliott> ^ul (:*)()((a~a:*~*^*:(/)*S)~a*^:^):^
00:37:11 <fungot> :*/:*:*/:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/: ...too much output!
00:37:21 <elliott> ^ul (:*)()((a~a:*~*^^:(/)*S)~a*^:^):^
00:37:21 <fungot> :*/:*:*/:*:*:*:*/:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*/ ...too much stack!
00:37:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:37:28 <zzo38> Deewiant: In dc, the p command (but not the P command) keeps the number or string to output on the stack afterward.
00:37:44 <elliott> Deewiant: In dc, every ASCII character is a valid register name.
00:37:46 <elliott> THOUGHT YOU MIGHT LIKE TO KNOW
00:37:56 <Deewiant> I didn't know dc had registers. :-P
00:38:11 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes. And all registers are both strings and stacks!
00:38:13 <zzo38> Deewiant: Yes, dc does have registers. Also, each register can be stashed and retrieved like you can in INTERCAL.
00:38:16 <elliott> It's a delightfully demented little language.
00:38:29 <elliott> Deewiant: Also, functions are just strings.
00:38:34 <zzo38> You can also do something similar to the RESUME command in INTERCAL.
00:39:00 <zzo38> Each register, and any entry on the stack, in dc, can store any string or any number (with arbitrary precision).
00:39:19 <Deewiant> In my mind dc supports integer constants, four arithmetic operations, and dup and print.
00:39:24 <elliott> oerjan: hm why is your program so short
00:39:43 <Deewiant> No, I don't know the command. :-D
00:39:43 <zzo38> Deewiant: There is a GNU extension to dc that supports r for swap.
00:40:39 <Deewiant> My Solaris's dc doesn't have it, so presumably yes.
00:40:43 <oerjan> elliott: which program?
00:40:53 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, although you could do it without extensions by: SaSbLaLb
00:41:03 <oerjan> the exponential one doesn't try any arithmetic, just doubles a string
00:41:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:41:44 <elliott> oerjan: your multiplying one
00:42:19 <elliott> Deewiant: gcd in dc: ??[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+p
00:42:27 <elliott> It even takes input and produces output from the console!
00:42:31 <oerjan> also since there is only one such string, dip can be simplified to just ~'ing the code a bit. well if that actually _is_ a simplification.
00:42:34 <elliott> [a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp
00:43:17 <elliott> oerjan: now rewrite it in underload-minus-()
00:43:36 <zzo38> The ? in dc just takes a line of dc code from stdin and executes it.
00:44:09 <zzo38> Also, you can change the input radix and output radix in dc. This also affects numbers in any subroutines you have stored, so be careful.
00:44:35 <elliott> oerjan: it's *easy*, you just turn X into X(X^-1)%
00:45:25 <zzo38> However, in TeX, % starts a comment.
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00:46:55 <elliott> hmm, it looks like errata for my errata were published in mathNEWS but not my actual errata
00:47:44 <zzo38> elliott: Well, mathNEWS sometimes does that. They publish the errata for the errata without publishing the errata.
00:47:59 <elliott> I hereby express scepticism that that has happened before.
00:48:00 <olsner> I hate it when that happens to the errata of my errata
00:48:50 <elliott> "Some of you may have noticed an article published earlier in this issue with errata to an article printed in the previous issue of mathNEWS." <-- pretty sure I haven't as it's not bloody here!
00:48:53 <olsner> well, it happens to the errata... or maybe rather it *doesn't* happen to the errata, at least not soon enough
00:48:57 <zzo38> (That is, % starts a comment by default, but you can change the category codes to make it do other things)
00:48:59 <elliott> maybe they decided it was so amazing that it was print-only
00:49:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:50:16 <olsner> what was amazing, the errata or the errata for it?
00:50:16 <elliott> I'd yell at coppro to get it fixed but I think I'm still on ignore
00:50:34 <elliott> olsner: the errata, which I wrote
00:50:40 <elliott> the errata for the errata are slanderous and incorrect
00:50:47 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, maybe that is it. But even for print-only things don't they sometimes make a PDF of those parts?
00:50:53 <olsner> oh, you didn't write the errata?
00:51:00 <olsner> *the errata for the errata
00:51:03 <zzo38> I do not see any of coppro's messages on here in the past few hours.
00:51:07 <elliott> olsner: that was written by an evil canadian
00:51:17 <olsner> damn the canadians and their errata
00:51:19 <elliott> http://www.mathnews.uwaterloo.ca/Issues/mn11402/ErrataToTheErrata.php this is the meta-errata
00:51:27 <elliott> also, errata errata errata
00:51:33 <elliott> congratulations, you know longer know what the errata "errata" means
00:52:31 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Errata+for+the+article+%22Python+Implementation+of+ed%22+by+*null,+as+printed+in+issue+114.1+of+the+University+of+Waterloo+Faculty+of+Mathematics+Student+Newspaper+mathNEWS.
00:52:36 <elliott> yep, those bastards don't have it online
00:53:07 <oerjan> <zzo38> I do not see any of coppro's messages on here in the past few hours. <-- according to whois, he hasn't spoken for 7 hours
00:53:41 <olsner> aha, elliott killed him
00:53:49 <oerjan> THAT MAY BE THE MOST LIKELY EXPLANATION
00:53:58 <elliott> oerjan: well why else would you not talk on irc for 7 hours
00:54:01 <elliott> without telling everyone first
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01:23:16 <lambdabot> Data.List (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
01:23:16 <lambdabot> Data.List deleteFirstsBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] -> [a]
01:23:27 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadLogic m) => m a -> m a -> m a
01:24:10 <elliott> > let int [] ys = ys; int (x:xs) ys = x : int ys xs in int [1,2,3] [4,5,6]
01:24:16 <elliott> > let int [] ys = ys; int (x:xs) ys = x : int ys xs in int [1,2,3] [1,2,3]
01:24:19 <elliott> > let int [] ys = ys; int (x:xs) ys = x : int ys xs in int [1,2,3] [1,2,3,4]
01:24:41 <elliott> > let int [] ys = ys; int (x:xs) ys = x : int ys xs in int [1,2,3,4] [1,2,3]
01:25:06 <elliott> @check \xs ys -> let int [] ys = ys; int (x:xs) ys = x : int ys xs in int xs ys == int ys xs
01:25:33 <lambdabot> Prelude product :: Num a => [a] -> a
01:25:33 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable product :: (Foldable t, Num a) => t a -> a
01:26:09 <elliott> > sequence [[],[],[]] [[],[],[]]
01:26:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[a]] -> t'
01:26:20 <elliott> > sequence [[[],[],[]], [[],[],[]]]
01:26:21 <lambdabot> [[[],[]],[[],[]],[[],[]],[[],[]],[[],[]],[[],[]],[[],[]],[[],[]],[[],[]]]
01:26:24 <elliott> :t sequence [[[],[],[]], [[],[],[]]]
01:26:35 <elliott> :t sequence [[1,2,3], [4,5,6]]
01:26:38 <elliott> > sequence [[1,2,3], [4,5,6]]
01:26:39 <lambdabot> [[1,4],[1,5],[1,6],[2,4],[2,5],[2,6],[3,4],[3,5],[3,6]]
01:26:43 <elliott> > length $ sequence [[1,2,3], [4,5,6]]
01:26:55 <elliott> > length $ sequence [[(),(),()], [(),(),(),()]]
01:27:06 <elliott> > sequence [[(),(),()], [(),(),(),()]]
01:27:07 <lambdabot> [[(),()],[(),()],[(),()],[(),()],[(),()],[(),()],[(),()],[(),()],[(),()],[(...
01:27:16 <elliott> > concat $ sequence [[(),(),()], [(),(),(),()]]
01:27:16 <lambdabot> [(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),()]
01:27:24 <elliott> @pl \xs ys -> concat (sequence [xs,ys]_
01:27:25 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or ")"
01:27:26 <elliott> @pl \xs ys -> concat (sequence [xs,ys])
01:28:39 <elliott> > concat (sequence [[],[]])
01:28:41 <elliott> > concat (sequence [[],x])
01:28:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
01:28:42 <lambdabot> against inferred type `SimpleRef...
01:28:48 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
01:28:48 <lambdabot> against inferred type `SimpleRef...
01:28:53 <elliott> > concat (sequence [[x],[y]])
01:29:01 <elliott> > concat (sequence [[x],[]])
01:29:05 <elliott> > concat (sequence [[],[y]])
01:30:00 <elliott> > concat (sequence [[x,y],[a,b]])
01:32:50 <elliott> @check let f _ [] = []; f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = concatMap (\y -> [x,y]) ys ++ f xs ys in \xs ys -> f xs ys == concat (sequence [xs,ys])
01:33:00 <elliott> @check let f _ [] = []; f (x:xs) ys = concatMap (\y -> [x,y]) ys ++ f xs ys in \xs ys -> f xs ys == concat (sequence [xs,ys])
01:33:01 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <interactive>:3:19-82: Non-exhaustive patterns in function f
01:33:20 <elliott> @check let f _ [] = []; f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = concatMap (\y -> [x,y]) ys ++ f xs ys in \xs ys -> length (f xs ys) == length xs * length ys
01:33:20 <lambdabot> "Falsifiable, after 0 tests:\n[()]\n[()]\n"
01:33:33 <elliott> > let f _ [] = []; f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = concatMap (\y -> [x,y]) ys ++ f xs ys in f [()] [()]
01:33:50 <elliott> > let f _ [] = []; f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = concatMap (\y -> [x,y]) ys ++ f xs ys in sequence [[()], [()]]
01:33:55 <elliott> > let f _ [] = []; f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = concatMap (\y -> [x,y]) ys ++ f xs ys in sequence [[()], [(),()]]
01:34:01 <elliott> > let f _ [] = []; f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = concatMap (\y -> [x,y]) ys ++ f xs ys in sequence [[(),()], [(),()]]
01:34:35 <elliott> what's a list function that obeys |f(xs,ys)| = |xs|*|ys| but has the same depth as the input lists :P
01:36:26 <elliott> oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan
01:55:15 <oerjan> <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadLogic m) => m a -> m a -> m a <-- eek, more caleskell?
01:57:40 <elliott> oerjan: <elliott> what's a list function that obeys |f(xs,ys)| = |xs|*|ys| but has the same depth as the input lists :P
02:00:20 <lambdabot> forall a1 a2 (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => m a1 -> m a2 -> m (a1, a2)
02:00:38 <elliott> oerjan: that counts as additional depth
02:00:59 <elliott> oerjan: specifically, "f [[],[],[]] [[],[],[]]" needs to produce a list of 12 []s
02:01:44 <oerjan> > liftM2 (++) [[],[],[]] [[],[],[]]
02:01:59 <elliott> > liftM2 (++) [1,2,3] [4,5,6]
02:02:00 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a1' in the constraints:
02:02:12 <elliott> > liftM2 (++) [[1],[2],[3]] [[4],[5],[6]]
02:02:14 <lambdabot> [[1,4],[1,5],[1,6],[2,4],[2,5],[2,6],[3,4],[3,5],[3,6]]
02:02:27 <elliott> oerjan: specifically i'm designing operations for the language where "obj := [] | obj * obj"
02:02:36 <elliott> addition is easy, it's just interleave
02:02:44 <elliott> oerjan: and numerals are just lists of []s i.e.
02:02:55 <elliott> oerjan: but ofc the operations have to have some generality :)
02:03:20 <oerjan> well the thing is whatever you use instead of ++ must work for two of your _actual_ list elements
02:03:38 <elliott> oerjan: no, I can use (++)
02:03:43 <elliott> oerjan: obj = [] | cons obj obj
02:03:50 <elliott> oerjan: obviously, (++) is defined on this :)
02:05:18 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:05:30 <elliott> oerjan: so er what's (liftM2 (++)) recursively...
02:05:44 <elliott> > liftM2 (++) [] [[],[],[]]
02:05:49 <elliott> > liftM2 (++) [[],[],[]] []
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02:11:43 <oerjan> liftM2 _is_ cartesian product, with your choice of combining function
02:12:17 <elliott> oerjan: right. so instead of x:y:... in the combining loop, we do (x++y):...
02:15:14 <elliott> oerjan: is that function actually useful :D
02:15:44 <oerjan> i'm sure it must have happened
02:16:13 <oerjan> probably more likely to be written as a list comprehension, though
02:16:14 <elliott> has someone used this haskell function before? does a bear shit in the woods?
02:17:08 <oerjan> maybe for table labels or something...
02:19:15 <oerjan> > liftM2 (++) ["row " ++ show n | n <- [1..3]] [", column " ++ show m | m <- [1..3]]
02:19:17 <lambdabot> ["row 1, column 1","row 1, column 2","row 1, column 3","row 2, column 1","r...
02:19:55 <oerjan> of course that's contrived since it'd probably be combined more
02:21:10 <oerjan> liftM2 (++) might be more likely with another Monad, perhaps...
02:22:12 <elliott> oerjan: well (++) also works as addition. although i've chosen interleave, I'm not sure why
02:22:40 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadLogic m) => m a -> m a -> m a
02:22:50 <elliott> so er [1,2,3] * [4,5,6] = [5,6,7,6,7,8,7,8,9]
02:23:01 <oerjan> :t Data.List.interleave
02:23:02 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.List.interleave'
02:23:15 <oerjan> oh i'm thinking of intersperse
02:23:18 <elliott> > interleave [a,b,c] [x,y,z]
02:23:30 <elliott> i don't know why i chose it for addition rather than (++)
02:23:54 <lambdabot> System.IO.Unsafe unsafeInterleaveIO :: IO a -> IO a
02:23:54 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.ST unsafeInterleaveST :: ST s a -> ST s a
02:23:54 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.ST.Lazy unsafeInterleaveST :: ST s a -> ST s a
02:24:11 <lambdabot> System.IO.Unsafe unsafeInterleaveIO :: IO a -> IO a
02:24:11 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.ST unsafeInterleaveST :: ST s a -> ST s a
02:24:11 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.ST.Lazy unsafeInterleaveST :: ST s a -> ST s a
02:24:22 <oerjan> doesn't @more work any more?
02:24:49 <elliott> @hoogle interleave :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
02:25:37 <oerjan> hm they haven't registered hoogle.org
02:26:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:26:15 <oerjan> @hoogle map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
02:26:15 <lambdabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
02:26:15 <lambdabot> Data.List map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
02:26:15 <lambdabot> Prelude fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
02:26:42 <oerjan> @hoogle map :: (a -> b) -> Either [a] Fnord -> Maybe [b]
02:27:15 <oerjan> @hoogle fap :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
02:27:32 <oerjan> OK HOOGLE I ADMIT YOU PROBABLY _DO_ LOOK AT BOTH PARTS
02:32:32 <oerjan> @hoogle map :: (a -> b) -> Either [a] Bool -> Maybe [b]
02:32:49 <Ilari> IPv6-related term: White Screen of Death.
02:33:16 <Ilari> Hoston used that term in his keynote talk in Linux.conf.au...
02:33:56 <Ilari> And for some reason, it had trainwreck theme (nearly every slide had picture of rail disaster...)
02:34:00 <elliott> <oerjan> @hoogle map :: (a -> b) -> Either [a] Bool -> Maybe [b]
02:34:28 <oerjan> elliott: hm it's actually possible i think
02:35:11 <oerjan> :t let map f (Left x) = fmap f x; map f (Right b) = Nothing in map
02:35:11 <lambdabot> forall a b t. (a -> b) -> Either (Maybe a) t -> Maybe b
02:35:51 <oerjan> :t let map f (Left x) = Just $ fmap f x; map f (Right b) = Nothing in map
02:35:52 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) t. (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> Either (f a) t -> Maybe (f b)
02:36:47 <oerjan> :t let map f (Left x) = Just $ fmap f x; map f (Right False) = Nothing; map f (Right True) = [] in map
02:36:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Maybe (f b)'
02:36:55 <oerjan> :t let map f (Left x) = Just $ fmap f x; map f (Right False) = Nothing; map f (Right True) = Just [] in map
02:36:56 <lambdabot> forall a a1. (a -> a1) -> Either [a] Bool -> Maybe [a1]
02:38:06 <oerjan> Ilari: hoston? strange name for a person
02:38:37 * oerjan slightly suspects finnish pronoun failure
02:39:07 <oerjan> i mean hoston would be a _good_ name for an ISP
02:39:22 <elliott> oerjan: (++) or interleave WHAT'S A BETTER ADDITION
02:39:52 <elliott> There are two choices of toilet paper orientation when using a toilet roll holder with a horizontal axle parallel to the wall: the toilet paper may hang over or under the roll. The choice is largely a matter of personal preference, dictated by habit. In surveys of American consumers and of bath and kitchen specialists, 60–70% of respondents prefer over.[1]
02:39:52 <elliott> What surprises some observers, including advice columnist Ann Landers, is the extent to which people hold strong opinions on such a trivial topic. Defenders of either position cite advantages ranging from aesthetics, hospitality, and cleanliness; to paper conservation and the ease of detaching individual squares. Celebrities and experts are found on both sides. Theories abound of what one's choice might say of a person: possibly it indicates age,
02:39:53 <elliott> or gender, or socioeconomic status, or political philosophy; possibly it offers insights into personality traits such as dependability and flexibility; possibly it correlates with ownership of a recreational vehicle or a cat.[2]
02:39:57 <elliott> Solutions range from compromise, to using separate dispensers or separate bathrooms entirely. One man advocates a plan under which his country will standardize on a single forced orientation, and at least one inventor hopes to popularize a new kind of toilet roll holder which swivels from one orientation to the other.[3]
02:40:11 <Ilari> Ah yeah, huston...
02:40:37 <elliott> > foldl (flip (:)) [1,2,3] [4,5,6]
02:40:47 <elliott> oerjan: THAT IS THE MOST USELESS FUNCTION I HAVE EVER SEEN
02:41:17 <elliott> oerjan: i guess [1,2,3]+[4,5,6] = [1,2,3,4,5,6] is more Useful, but otoh interleave is a fun function that isn't so trivial to implement in terms of other things
02:41:25 * oerjan is a strict hang over person
02:42:47 <oerjan> also i saw a norwegian page about the subject years ago, it was hang over supporting too
02:43:21 <elliott> i thought you were expressing an opinion on drinking
02:43:28 <elliott> or, making a terrible pun on "huston"
02:43:32 <elliott> because it turned into... hanover
02:43:34 <elliott> and then hang over and what
02:43:40 <oerjan> oh wait i misremembered http://www.home.no/haraldweider/dorull.html
02:43:49 <oerjan> those heretics have it _wrong_
02:46:08 -!- Adiemus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
02:46:12 <oerjan> elliott: you seem not to have read the thing you pasted :D
02:46:29 <elliott> excuse me i am asking for opinions
02:46:31 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: i guess [1,2,3]+[4,5,6] = [1,2,3,4,5,6] is more Useful, but otoh interleave is a fun function that isn't so trivial to implement in terms of other things
02:48:25 <oerjan> elliott: the thing about the function i mentioned is that it's tail recursive in a strict language. of course that's not important for haskell.
02:48:51 <elliott> oerjan: well yes, but you have to reverse first :P
02:49:01 <elliott> but i think my language might be lazy.
02:50:17 * elliott very much doubts that Slaves to Armok: God of Blood will ever get a second sequel.
02:50:51 <elliott> heh chapter ii was developed for four years before release
02:53:04 <oerjan> > foldr (foldl (flip (:))) "hm..." ["alpha", "beta", "gamma"]
02:53:51 <oerjan> > foldl (foldl (flip (:))) "hm..." ["alpha", "beta", "gamma"]
02:55:05 <elliott> that would make a good chant
02:55:26 <oerjan> NO! DON'T SUMMON THE AAARGH...
02:56:03 <oerjan> > foldr (flip (:)) 'h' "abc"
02:56:04 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = [b]
02:56:12 <oerjan> > foldr (flip (:)) "h" "abc"
02:56:13 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = [b]
02:56:50 <elliott> why on earth _did_ i decide on it
02:56:55 <elliott> it was because of the way I wrote it at first
02:57:04 <elliott> treating Base as 0 and Comp irrelevant x as a natural
02:57:38 <elliott> add (Comp <IRRELEVANT> x) (Comp <IRRELEVANT> y) = Comp <IRRELEVANT> (Comp <IRRELEVANT> (add x y))
02:57:42 <elliott> because Succ = Comp <IRRELEVANT>
02:57:58 <elliott> add (Comp x xs) (Comp y ys) = Comp x (Comp y (add xs ys))
02:58:05 <elliott> then I realised you could do this elegantly
02:58:13 <elliott> vPlus (Comp x xs) ys = Comp x (vPlus ys xs)
02:58:22 <elliott> still, I'm not sure this is better than (++)
02:59:25 <elliott> oerjan: YOU GIVE INSUFFICIENT OPINIONS
03:00:30 <elliott> vTimes :: Val -> Val -> Val
03:00:30 <elliott> vTimes (Comp x xs) ys = go ys (vTimes xs ys)
03:00:31 <elliott> go (Comp y ys) rs = Comp x (Comp y (go ys rs))
03:00:33 <elliott> what's this function I wonder
03:00:36 <elliott> oh wait that's the broken one
03:00:46 <elliott> vTimes :: Val -> Val -> Val
03:00:46 <elliott> vTimes (Comp x xs) ys = go ys (vTimes xs ys)
03:00:49 <elliott> go (Comp y ys) rs = Comp (vAppend x y) (go ys rs)
03:01:03 <elliott> hm that second clause is needless
03:01:38 <elliott> @check let f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = go ys (f xs ys) where go [] rs = rs; go (y:ys) rs = (x++y):(go ys rs) in \xs ys -> length (f xs ys) == length xs * length ys
03:01:50 <elliott> @check let f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = go ys (f xs ys) where go [] rs = rs; go (y:ys) rs = (x++y):(go ys rs) in \xs ys -> f xs ys == liftA2 (++) xs ys
03:01:58 <elliott> @check let f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = go ys (f xs ys) where go [] rs = rs; go (y:ys) rs = (x++y):(go ys rs) in \xs ys -> f xs ys == liftA2 (++) xs ys
03:02:03 <elliott> oerjan: what's the correct function
03:02:08 <elliott> @check let f [] _ = []; f (x:xs) ys = go ys (f xs ys) where go [] rs = rs; go (y:ys) rs = (x++y):(go ys rs) in \xs ys -> f xs ys == liftM2 (++) xs ys
03:02:28 <elliott> why is it exceeding? just bad luck?
03:02:41 <elliott> also, hmm, i kind of feel like + should be (++), just because vTimes uses (++) in a loop
03:03:43 <elliott> oerjan: now what's the list function where |f xs ys| == |xs|^|ys| :D
03:04:52 <oerjan> > (mapM . const) "abc" "def"
03:04:54 <lambdabot> ["aaa","aab","aac","aba","abb","abc","aca","acb","acc","baa","bab","bac","b...
03:05:28 <oerjan> > length $ (mapM . const) "abc" "def"
03:05:41 <elliott> oerjan: nice! now what's the actual algorithm to that...
03:05:58 <elliott> > (mapM . const) "abcd" "def"
03:05:59 <lambdabot> ["aaa","aab","aac","aad","aba","abb","abc","abd","aca","acb","acc","acd","a...
03:06:04 <elliott> > (mapM . const) "abc" "defg"
03:06:05 <lambdabot> ["aaaa","aaab","aaac","aaba","aabb","aabc","aaca","aacb","aacc","abaa","aba...
03:06:20 <elliott> > (mapM . const) [[],[],[]] [[],[],[],[]]
03:06:21 <oerjan> > length $ (mapM . const) "abc" "defg"
03:06:21 <lambdabot> [[[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[]],[[],...
03:06:31 <elliott> it introduces another level of nesting
03:06:39 <elliott> oerjan: what's the _flat_ function obeying that
03:09:03 <oerjan> i'm just trying to think if there's anything better than just applying map (const []) to the result
03:09:22 <elliott> oerjan: yeah that wouldn't be good, i want functions that can theoretically munge arbitrary data around here
03:10:44 <oerjan> mapM intrinsically returns m ([a])
03:10:53 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
03:12:10 <oerjan> and the use of sequence is essential to blowing up the size
03:12:30 <elliott> oerjan: sequence (concatMap f as)?
03:12:40 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
03:12:44 <elliott> :t \f as -> sequence (concatMap f as)
03:12:45 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) a1. (Monad m) => (a -> [m a1]) -> [a] -> m [a1]
03:12:52 <oerjan> sequence also essentially returns m [a]
03:13:06 <elliott> oerjan: _essentially_? it *does* :)
03:13:27 <oerjan> i mean that's an essential part of how it works
03:13:48 <elliott> oerjan: maybe i'll ask #haskell
03:14:51 <oerjan> you could apply map head to the result, none of the sublists can be empty
03:15:47 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m [a]))
03:15:47 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M50975851...
03:15:57 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => m [a]
03:16:06 <elliott> <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M50975851...
03:16:09 <oerjan> > sequence [] :: [[()]]
03:16:27 <elliott> <oerjan> you could apply map head to the result, none of the sublists can be empty
03:16:31 <elliott> i don't want to throw away information, dammit :)
03:16:42 <elliott> the |xs|^|ys| should seem like a happy side-effect to a general operation
03:17:00 <oerjan> well then it's a question of what kind of general operation _does_ look like that
03:17:21 <elliott> oerjan: meanwhile, Cale scares me:
03:17:22 <elliott> <Cale> elliott: produce the list of all functions from xs to ys and enumerate their codomains in the order of xs?
03:17:27 <elliott> <Cale> err, no, that can't be right
03:17:38 <elliott> oerjan: well i never said it was EASY :D
03:17:57 <oerjan> i think Cale's suggestion would be rather more enormous
03:18:53 <oerjan> well it _is_ true each element is essentially such a function before you simplify it
03:19:52 <oerjan> the problem then is distilling each function down to just one element of xs and/or ys
03:21:02 <elliott> <monochrom> I am one of those who get mad for askers not accepting my answers. Q: "is it true 2+2=4?" A: "yes" Q:"I'm asking because I'm buying a $2 thing and another $2 thing online and I only want to pay $3" That gets me mad. Wishful denial of my factual answer.
03:22:43 <oerjan> well tell monochrom i think he looks at this too much in black and white
03:27:10 <elliott> <elliott> dafis: if i mention #esoteric again, in the future people will look back at #haskell logs, and think it was some place of great importance, what with the frequency it turns up in here. so I won't!
03:27:28 -!- kfr has joined.
03:27:37 <kfr> Haha, awesome
03:27:52 <kfr> Is this where people gather to invent bizarre languages?
03:27:56 -!- elliott has set topic: THERE IS NOBODY HERE | http://esolangs.org/ | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:27:58 <oerjan> elliott: this is horrible! and our topic is nearly accurate too!
03:28:17 <elliott> oerjan: do you want to just set +b for everyone?
03:28:23 <elliott> maybe they'll all go away!
03:28:26 <oerjan> we cannot have an accurate topic, that would be nontraditional
03:28:27 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:28:56 <elliott> at some point in time we will have assimilated the entire population of #haskell
03:28:56 <kfr> Wow, there are many people from #haskell in here
03:28:59 <elliott> isn't that our grand master plan?
03:29:00 <kfr> Coincidence? I think niot
03:29:13 <oerjan> elliott: WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME OF THIS PLAN
03:29:26 <elliott> haskellers may know oerjan as the person who wrote 7/8ths of the Haskell 98 report
03:29:30 <elliott> no exaggeration, not in the slightest
03:29:53 <oerjan> probably not. although i _was_ the 6th most active person in #haskell for a while.
03:30:09 <kfr> oerjan: Oh, did you really write parts of the 98 report?
03:30:16 <elliott> kfr: he fixed WHOLE TYPOS!!!
03:30:21 <oerjan> no, i sent typo corrections
03:30:23 <elliott> give him your utmost adoration!
03:30:36 <kfr> No, I hate Haskell
03:30:45 <elliott> oerjan: 6th most active? pfft, when that social graph was still being generated i was the gigantic centre of it
03:30:51 <elliott> without ever talking about haskell!
03:31:10 <elliott> oerjan: i think we're giving everybody the impression that we're the only two who ever talk in here
03:31:21 <elliott> > text "but lambdabot talks too!"
03:31:41 <oerjan> it _is_ a bit silent at the moment
03:32:08 <elliott> sheesh neither #haskell nor oerjan have figured out the function yet
03:32:13 <elliott> i treat these sources as equals
03:32:35 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ChalcraftGreen somebody less lazy than me should wikify this page someone made
03:33:10 <oerjan> elliott: EXACTLY my thought. except with "me" standing for oerjan.
03:33:40 <kfr> At first you start learning it and you can't reuse any of your previous programming knowledge. You write like 20 lines of Haskell and then you spend 40-60 minutes desperately trying to make it compile. Then at some point you develop Haskell cancer and you turn into a language fascist who doesn't use any other languages anymore. Eventually you stop writing programs, lost in abstract discourse over the newest zyganometamonadomorphism type classes etc.
03:33:42 <oerjan> elliott: i was referring to ChalcraftGreen
03:34:12 <elliott> kfr: excuse me, we are the kind of people who skip straight to the zyganometamonadomorphism type classes.
03:34:34 <oerjan> the metadone morphisms, for the heavily addicted
03:34:55 <elliott> did we ever actually agree on a definition of turing completeness? :)
03:34:57 <kfr> Congratulations, at this stage you have completed your transformation from a once cheerful and productive hobby programmer to a bitter intellectual wreck.
03:35:17 <elliott> bitter, yes intellectual, yes wreck, yes, dunno if we were ever cheerful and productive
03:35:33 <elliott> a significant portion of us have sworn off programming altogether :D
03:36:02 -!- elliott has set topic: IVORY TOWER OF GRUMPY ACADEMIC ELITISTS | bring whisky or be kicked | http://esolangs.org/ | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:36:18 <kfr> Ew, IRC logs
03:36:22 <kfr> Big brother is watching
03:36:31 <elliott> kfr: logged by the same people as #haskell!
03:36:37 <elliott> yes our insidious connections go WAY back!
03:36:49 <elliott> kfr: hey i'll have you know that logreading is a respected tradition here.
03:36:54 <elliott> we literally just pick logs at random and start reading. well I do.
03:37:08 <elliott> don't worry, google only finds us if you phrase your query well :D
03:37:10 <kfr> That sounds bizarre
03:37:28 <kfr> Well, I used to have centralised nicks which were easy to google
03:37:35 <kfr> Nowadays I use like 30 different nicks
03:37:42 <elliott> it's actually interesting reading material a lot of the time
03:37:44 <kfr> A different one for each service
03:37:44 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ Try Underload instead!
03:37:45 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
03:37:58 <elliott> oerjan: oh my god what sequence is that printing
03:37:59 <kfr> elliott yes, I also use full system encryption with TrueCrypt etc
03:38:10 <elliott> kfr: ah. we'll get along like a house on fire.
03:38:32 <elliott> kfr: I wouldn't trust TrueCrypt mind you.
03:38:58 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just trying to give kfr a taste of what it's like on the rare occasions we are on topic
03:39:15 <elliott> oerjan: i think that's happened once.
03:39:26 <elliott> oerjan: HAVE YOU FIGURED OUT MY FUNCTION YET.
03:39:53 <oerjan> elliott: i've sort of given up a bit after Cale pointed out it's about functions
03:40:03 <elliott> oerjan: well it's like zfc isn't it
03:40:17 <elliott> well not zfc, that applies pretty much anywhere
03:40:51 <oerjan> you could in fact use mapM to list all functions that way
03:41:30 <oerjan> elliott: it's not going to help with your flattening desire
03:42:01 <elliott> oerjan: perhaps we could use liftM2 (++) as (*) and do the rest from there.
03:42:07 <elliott> using my <IRRELEVANT> thing
03:42:16 <elliott> erm what's the recursive exponentiation algorithm again :D
03:42:32 <lambdabot> Source not found. There are some things that I just don't know.
03:42:34 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a -> a
03:42:37 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
03:43:17 <elliott> oerjan: you write the exp on Nats, i'm too lazy to
03:43:32 <oerjan> elliott: hm liftM2 (++) iterated you mean, hm...
03:43:50 <elliott> oerjan: right, replace Zero with Base and (Succ x) with (Comp <IRRELEVANT> x)
03:44:05 <elliott> oerjan: then you just have to change those comps into (Comp x xs), and figure out where the "x" and "y" go on the right-hand side :)
03:44:10 <elliott> i.e. which <IRRELEVANT>s they match up to there
03:44:19 <elliott> well that's the basic idea i'm using for transforming nat functions into these functions
03:44:47 <oerjan> well i'm trying to think if there's a simpler name for foldr1 (liftM2 (++)) or thereabouts
03:45:17 <lambdabot> forall a1 (m :: * -> *). (Monoid a1, Monad m) => [m a1] -> m a1
03:45:32 <elliott> > foldr1 (liftM2 (++)) [[1,2,3], [4,5,6]]
03:45:33 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a1' in the constraints:
03:45:35 <oerjan> :t foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]]
03:45:50 <elliott> > foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] [[1,2,3], [4,5,6]]
03:45:51 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_12123456' at ...
03:46:04 <elliott> > foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] [[[1,2,3], [4,5,6]], [[7, 8, 9], [10, 11, 12]]]
03:46:06 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3,7,8,9],[1,2,3,10,11,12],[4,5,6,7,8,9],[4,5,6,10,11,12]]
03:46:17 <elliott> > length $ foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] [[[1,2,3], [4,5,6]], [[7, 8, 9], [10, 11, 12]]]
03:46:31 <elliott> > length $ foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] [ [[],[]], [[],[],[]] ]
03:47:12 <oerjan> elliott: i intend it only as a building block, sheesh
03:47:24 <elliott> oerjan: seriously though, write out recursive exponentiation for me, i'm insanely lazy
03:47:48 <elliott> exp n Z = n; exp n (S Z) = n; exp n (S (S m)) = n * exp n m
03:48:12 <oerjan> the ^ definition uses binary representation anyway
03:48:41 <lambdabot> forall a b. (Num a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
03:48:44 <elliott> exp n (Comp irr (Comp irr' m)) = vTimes n (exp n m)
03:48:48 <elliott> hmm that (S Z) is problematic
03:49:08 <elliott> exp n (Comp irr (Comp irr' m)) = vTimes n (exp n m)
03:49:13 <elliott> not at all clear what to do here :D
03:49:46 <elliott> exp xs (Comp irr Base) = xs
03:49:46 <elliott> exp xs (Comp irr (Comp irr' ys)) = vTimes xs (exp xs ys)
03:49:55 <pikhq> ... Wait wait wait... Someone is claiming that most Brits find peanut butter "revolting".
03:50:07 <pikhq> elliott: Is there any truth to this bullshit?
03:50:07 <elliott> oerjan: maybe "vTimes xs (Comp irr (Comp irr' (exp xs ys)))"?
03:50:14 <elliott> but then i'm not sure that would produce the correct lengths.
03:50:30 <pikhq> elliott: LIES AND DECEIT.
03:50:51 <pikhq> elliott: INSUFFICIENT PEANUT BUTTER AND JELLY. BY FAR.
03:51:12 <oerjan> :t \a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (const a) b
03:51:13 <lambdabot> forall a a1. [[a]] -> [a1] -> [[a]]
03:51:55 <oerjan> > (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (const a) b) [[],[],[]] [[],[]]
03:53:03 <elliott> *Main> :load "/home/elliott/Code/meddle/meddle.hs"
03:53:03 <elliott> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( /home/elliott/Code/meddle/meddle.hs, interpreted )
03:53:03 <elliott> Comp Base (Comp Base (Comp Base (Comp Base (Comp Base (Comp Base Base)))))
03:53:03 <elliott> *Main> len $ vExp three two
03:53:09 <pikhq> What's not quite right is disliking peanut butter but liking Marmite. Seriously, WTF.
03:53:18 <oerjan> elliott: exp n Z = S Z, surely
03:53:25 <elliott> oerjan: facepalm, yes indeed
03:53:41 <elliott> except that seems a bit ungeneral...
03:53:50 <elliott> *Main> len $ vExp three two
03:53:56 <elliott> *Main> len $ vExp three three
03:55:02 <oerjan> what is that Comp thing again
03:55:44 <elliott> data Val = Base | Comp Val Val deriving (Show)
03:56:53 <oerjan> ok so exp n (Comp irr x) = vTimes n (exp n x)
03:57:05 <elliott> you are not allowed to leave irrs lying around
03:57:13 <elliott> oerjan: remember, no throwing away information :p
03:57:28 <oerjan> that makes this _very_ awkward
03:57:30 <elliott> oerjan: the irr is just an easy way to turn simple recursive functions on nats into those on vals
03:57:47 <elliott> add Zero y = y; add (Succ x) y = Succ (add x y)
03:57:49 <oerjan> since the obvious thing to do _is_ to throw them away and multiply copies of n
03:58:12 <elliott> add Base ys = ys; add (Comp <irr> xs) ys = Comp <irr> (add xs ys)
03:58:27 <elliott> add Base ys = ys; add (Comp x xs) ys = Comp x (add xs ys)
03:58:38 <elliott> oerjan: is it, from a list point of view?
03:58:45 <elliott> oerjan: i don't really see any list functions ignoring their data
03:59:46 <oerjan> oh it's easy to include the information if you don't insist on a^b containing elements from a and b _on the top level_
04:00:04 <elliott> oerjan: but then (num^num) wouldn't be a num
04:00:08 <elliott> because numbers are lists of []s
04:00:10 <oerjan> just do what Cale said
04:00:13 <elliott> oerjan: but then (num^num) wouldn't be a num
04:00:14 <elliott> because numbers are lists of []s
04:00:17 <elliott> thus the flatness requirement
04:00:19 <oerjan> enumerate the functions
04:00:33 <elliott> oerjan: isn't that going to be hideously impractical...
04:00:49 <oerjan> sure if you look inside them...
04:01:48 <elliott> oerjan: hm i don't quite understand then
04:03:17 <elliott> oerjan: THAT WAS YOUR CUE TO EXPLAIN
04:03:23 <oerjan> well in order to define exponentiation of a^b using multiplication, you generate b lists of the same length as a and then multiply them. it's easy to do this if you don't need the information from b inside those lists (just use a itself)
04:03:43 <oerjan> otherwise we need some other way to construct lists of length |a|
04:04:20 <elliott> oerjan: by mixing together a and b somehow?
04:04:31 <elliott> oerjan: but what was that enumerate the functions thing?
04:05:02 <oerjan> elliott: you can describe a function as a list of tuples
04:05:22 <elliott> oerjan: i just mean how would that be used
04:05:36 <elliott> oerjan: flattening [(a,b),(c,d),...] into [a,b,c,d,...] won't work, since that doubles the length
04:05:55 <oerjan> elliott: it's just the "natural" (in the category sense, probably) way of constructing a^b as a set
04:06:32 <oerjan> however hm let us _try_ to include information from b in the a copy lists.
04:06:34 <elliott> oerjan: hmm. how many times can we give the entire contents of b with |b| lists of length |a|?
04:06:49 <elliott> how many times can we give the entire contents of a with |b| lists of length |a|?
04:06:56 <oerjan> since there are |b| of them, each can be based on a single element of b
04:07:00 <elliott> how many times can we give the entire contents of both a and b with |b| lists of length |a|?
04:07:06 <oerjan> elliott: SHUT UP I'M THINKING
04:07:22 <elliott> well the answer is... we need to store |a|+|b| in |a|*|b|
04:07:50 <elliott> = |a| - (|a|^2)/(|a|+|b|) thx W^A
04:07:59 <elliott> so we need to pack the list that many times...heh
04:08:02 <oerjan> let x in b, then we want to combine x with a. now x is ostensibly of the same type as a's elements
04:08:05 <elliott> i'll let you return to your thinking, this is going nowhere
04:08:10 <elliott> oerjan: type is irrelevant, yeah
04:08:19 <elliott> everything is of type T = [T]
04:08:23 <oerjan> so we can do map (x++) a
04:08:39 <oerjan> elliott: TYPES ARE IMPORTANT FOR INTUITION
04:09:29 <oerjan> or (++x) more, i think
04:09:47 <elliott> note that for the numeric case x = []
04:10:15 <oerjan> yes, that's the main case which needs to work
04:10:40 <elliott> i think you're on to something, by jove
04:11:07 <oerjan> \a b -> map (\x -> map (++x) a) b
04:11:14 <elliott> :t \a b -> map (\x -> map (++x) a) b
04:11:15 <oerjan> :t \a b -> map (\x -> map (++x) a) b
04:11:15 <lambdabot> forall a. (Monoid a) => [a] -> [a] -> [[a]]
04:11:16 <lambdabot> forall a. (Monoid a) => [a] -> [a] -> [[a]]
04:11:23 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
04:11:25 <lambdabot> forall m. (Monoid m) => m -> m -> m
04:11:35 <elliott> ok so that's [[a]] -> [[a]] -> [[[a]]] in _real land_
04:11:52 <elliott> > length $ (\a b -> map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[],[],[]] [[],[],[]]
04:11:59 <elliott> > length $ (\a b -> concatMap (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[],[],[]] [[],[],[]]
04:12:07 <elliott> > length $ (\a b -> concatMap (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[],[],[]] [[],[],[],[]]
04:12:26 <oerjan> ...the part where your brain doesn't get that WE'RE STILL BUILDING BLOCKS.
04:13:10 <oerjan> and we do _not_ want concatMap there, that list contains elements to be multiplied together
04:13:38 <oerjan> :t \a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b
04:13:46 <elliott> oerjan: i'm just trolling you :)
04:14:02 <elliott> > length $ (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[],[],[]] [[],[],[]]
04:14:21 <elliott> > length $ (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] [[10,11,12],[13,14,15],[16,17,18]]
04:14:27 <elliott> > (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] [[10,11,12],[13,14,15],[16,17,18]]
04:14:29 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3,10,11,12,1,2,3,13,14,15,1,2,3,16,17,18],[1,2,3,10,11,12,1,2,3,13,14...
04:14:40 <elliott> oerjan: i'm just going to assume it has all the information there :P
04:14:47 <elliott> oerjan: so, er, is this option actually useful for _anything_
04:15:36 <oerjan> well unless a is empty, then there isn't much we can do to keep the information
04:17:01 <oerjan> :t \a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [mempty] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b
04:17:02 <lambdabot> forall a. (Monoid a) => [a] -> [a] -> [a]
04:18:48 <oerjan> :t \a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [mempty] $ [y++x | x <- b, y <- a]]
04:18:56 <oerjan> :t \a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [mempty] $ [y++x | x <- b, y <- a]
04:18:57 <lambdabot> forall a1. (Monoid a1) => [[a1]] -> [[a1]] -> [a1]
04:19:37 <oerjan> :t \a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [mempty] $ [[y++x | y <- a]| x <- b]
04:19:37 <lambdabot> forall a1. (Monoid a1) => [a1] -> [a1] -> [a1]
04:21:03 <lambdabot> forall a. (Monoid a) => a -> a -> a
04:21:07 <elliott> > (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] [[]]
04:21:14 <elliott> > (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] []
04:21:29 <elliott> > (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8]] [[]]
04:21:34 <elliott> > (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8]] [[],[]]
04:21:35 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3,1,2,3],[1,2,3,4,5,6],[1,2,3,7,8],[4,5,6,1,2,3],[4,5,6,4,5,6],[4,5,6...
04:21:41 <elliott> oerjan: yikes, differing lengths?
04:22:06 <oerjan> you started out with differing lengths
04:23:06 <elliott> oerjan: ok so is this function actually useful for shit...
04:23:15 <elliott> > (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) [[1], [2,3]] [[4,5,6],[]]
04:23:17 <lambdabot> [[1,4,5,6,1],[1,4,5,6,2,3],[2,3,4,5,6,1],[2,3,4,5,6,2,3]]
04:23:27 <elliott> it doesn't look useful at all :D
04:23:39 <elliott> but it does nicely satisfy the properties, now oerjan, how about SUBTRACTION
04:23:49 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaa
04:24:49 <elliott> i'm still not sure whether to use interleave or append for addition
04:25:05 <elliott> my current addition function corresponds to "add Zero y = y; add (Succ x) y = Succ (add y x)"
04:25:24 <elliott> but append corresponds to "add Zero y = y; add (Succ x) y = Succ (add x y)", you can see my problem here :)
04:25:39 <elliott> i suppose having + be concatenation on lists is something people consider "useful".
04:25:45 <oerjan> @check \l -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [mempty] == map mconcat (sequence l)
04:25:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[[a]]] -> [[a]]'
04:26:09 <oerjan> @check \l -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [mempty] l == map mconcat (sequence l)
04:26:17 <elliott> oerjan: so does (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) have a simple recursive representation? i doubt it...
04:26:23 <oerjan> well at least it typed
04:26:32 <oerjan> :t map mconcat . sequence
04:26:37 <lambdabot> forall a. (Monoid a) => [[a]] -> [a]
04:26:41 <elliott> "it typechecked, the program works, time to push the build into production"
04:26:46 <oerjan> :t foldr (liftM2 (++)) [mempty]
04:26:47 <lambdabot> forall a1. (Monoid a1) => [[a1]] -> [a1]
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04:27:37 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: so does (\a b -> foldr (liftM2 (++)) [[]] $ map (\x -> map (++x) a) b) have a simple recursive representation? i doubt it...
04:27:55 <elliott> foldr is just a loop through the list, liftM2 (++) is just my vTimes, and that map can be done at each recursive step, I think
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04:59:31 <Mathnerd314> random q: is it weird if you read blog posts entitled "I suck" and start agreeing with them?
05:00:35 <Mathnerd314> like, "this person totally sucks; they even wrote a blog post about how badly they suck"
05:09:24 <oerjan> hey, _i_ suck so badly i cannot even write blog posts!
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05:16:49 <Mathnerd314> alright, so it's the blog that's weird and not necessarily me
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05:22:21 <zzo38> How to bring whisky on the IRC?
05:23:36 <oerjan> DON'T ASK ME, I DIDN'T MAKE THE POLICY
05:25:07 <pikhq> konnhįȳûtaniarutoki,uīsukîwomotu.sìȳa',uīsukîtoIRCsurune.
05:25:30 <pikhq> "Translation": No, I don't feel like giving you a useful answer.
05:26:12 <oerjan> THAT'S AN OBVIOUS LIE I CAN SEE "IRC" IN THERE
05:26:18 <zzo38> Why don't you write it properly in kana (and/or kanji)? That is more efficient to read than the romaji.
05:26:28 <pikhq> zzo38: Because I don't feel like giving you a useful answer.
05:26:41 <zzo38> pikhq: O, that's why. Now I know why.
05:26:49 <pikhq> But if you *insist*...
05:27:25 <pikhq> コンピュータにあるとき、ウィスキーを持つ。じゃっ、ウィスキーとIRCするね。
05:28:14 <pikhq> "When you're at your computer, have whisky. There, you're now IRCing with whisky."
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06:15:26 <Lymia> Can somebody here patch the FukYorBrane reference implementation?
06:15:36 <Gregor> I should certainly hope I could.
06:16:00 <Lymia> What's up with line 580
06:16:04 <Lymia> It's causing segfaults.
06:16:15 <Lymia> It looks like [procowner] should be [procowner-1]
06:18:09 <Gregor> WOW it's been a long time since I've looked at this code :P
06:19:21 <Gregor> Yup, that should most assuredly be procowner-1 >_>
06:20:16 <Gregor> That bug is now five years old X-D
06:20:34 <Lymia> And somehow unnoticed.
06:20:52 <kfr> Are research languages tolerated in here or do they have to be sufficiently whack/bizarre?
06:21:08 <Gregor> kfr: Usually tolerated, unless they're too normal :P
06:21:13 <kfr> Are practical languages frowned upon in here?
06:21:25 <zzo38> kfr: Try. Write what you want to write and then we can see.
06:21:35 <Gregor> kfr: Depends on the definition of "practical" of whoever's in here :P
06:21:47 <kfr> I wanted to make a self hosting compiler for fun
06:21:50 <Lymia> I assume a normal language with convoluted enoguh syntax will do.
06:21:55 <kfr> Wit IA-32/AMD64 cod generation
06:22:05 <kfr> Supporting both Windows PE and Linux ELF
06:22:14 <kfr> With*, code*
06:22:15 <Lymia> kfr, and provide no other documentation.
06:22:39 <Lymia> Go read the source, or go read the binary.
06:22:57 <kfr> I wonder how short you can make this without really writing any larger parts in ASM
06:23:28 <zzo38> kfr: What is it that you are making?
06:23:37 <kfr> zzo38 just a joke really
06:23:45 <kfr> If I wanted to make a serious language I'd use LLVM
06:23:52 <kfr> And no self hosting
06:24:28 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_failolz: 1.9
06:24:45 <kfr> Gregor what was that?
06:24:46 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for fyb!
06:24:49 <zzo38> kfr: OK. But still, what is it?
06:24:55 <Gregor> kfr: Rerunning the FYB hill with the bug fixed >_>
06:25:01 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
06:25:08 <Gregor> Bleh, doesn't announce the scoreboard location :P
06:25:10 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
06:25:18 <kfr> zzo38: I haven't decided on any specifics really, I just wanted to make a self hosting compiler in some joke language at some point
06:25:20 <Lymia> If I understand what this bug means correctly.
06:25:31 <Lymia> * in a subprocess only works if you're the first program, and crashes otherwise.
06:25:31 <Gregor> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt Whew, logicex-2 still remains supreme.
06:25:39 <Lymia> And farthermore, it looks for the ; in the ENEMY program.
06:25:43 <Gregor> Lymia: 'til it was now fixed X-P
06:26:04 <Gregor> 's not a popular command :P
06:26:05 <Lymia> Anywhere to submit larger programs?
06:26:27 * Gregor tries to recall if !fyb can use URLs ...
06:26:39 <Lymia> !fyb test http://example.com
06:26:42 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 0.0
06:27:09 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
06:27:13 <zzo38> kfr: Well, such things are things that are sometimes related to esolangs. There is a "Joke language list" in the wiki, which you can view. However, "joke language" is mostly like unusable things, things that don't work, and so on; most esolangs are not considered "joke language" even if it is partially created as a joke.
06:27:30 <Gregor> Lymia: http://codu.org/eso/fyb/in_egobot/Lymia_test.fyb Yup, worked
06:27:51 <Lymia> HTML makes a horrible fighter. :V
06:27:53 <kfr> Well it wasn't supposed to be lolcode or anything like that
06:28:03 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/fyb/
06:28:17 <zzo38> kfr: Review the wiki and then you can decide whether or not it belongs.
06:28:22 <Gregor> Lymia: Can you defeat logicex-2? ^^
06:29:25 <Lymia> !fyb evil http://lymia.x10.bz/evil.fyb
06:29:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evil: 71.3
06:30:30 <Lymia> I think it's quite clear how it works.
06:30:35 <kfr> zzo38 hmm those look quite different from what I had in mind
06:30:39 <Gregor> Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooose
06:30:43 <Lymia> (I expected it to lose more agienst other bots actually)
06:30:52 <zzo38> kfr: Review the non-joke list, too.
06:30:52 <Gregor> This is the first time in nearly five years that logicex-2 has gotten a score less than 100.0 X-P
06:31:03 <kfr> zzo38 but I was considering using tons of UTF-8 symbols
06:31:04 <Lymia> The bot destroys every ! command in LogicEx
06:31:09 <kfr> To catch the eye
06:31:10 <Gregor> Pff, time for logicex-3.
06:31:12 <Lymia> Then goes bomb every single command.
06:31:15 <kfr> APL calls!
06:31:25 <Lymia> It's explicitly targeted at logicex.
06:32:05 <Lymia> And it's very successful at doing just what it's meant to do.
06:32:06 <zzo38> kfr: You can consider using tons of UTF-8 symbols, then. Ideas like that are on the wiki, but nothing even partially complete. You could make one with better descriptions and a more complete one than just the idea.
06:32:48 <Gregor> Lymia: It does pretty friggin' well otherwise, too (simply because running like hell and bombing randomly isn't a bad strategy)
06:33:05 <Lymia> Gregor, also, the fact that @ also sets the data pointer to the current instruction pointer isn't documented anywhere but the code.
06:34:17 <Lymia> You can fix logicex by adding a single nop somewhere.
06:34:21 <zzo38> I noticed the git repository commitdiff log has "author" and "committer" fields, both are the same. Is there a difference?
06:34:42 <Gregor> Lymia: Well, FYB is effectively "maintained" as part of EgoBot now, so you can get the fixed code in http://codu.org/projects/egobot/ . I will eventually retaliate, but for the time being I have other stuff to do :P
06:35:08 <Lymia> zzo38, you can pull from an external server that you don't own.
06:35:11 <Lymia> Including other's commits.
06:35:25 <Lymia> i.e. it comes into play when you pull from a fork
06:35:26 <zzo38> Lymia: OK, thanks.
06:36:18 <Gregor> If they're different for a revision that introduces a bug, you know both who to blame for /writing/ a bug, and who to blame for /approving/ the bug ^^
06:38:01 <zzo38> Gregor: In my case it is a non-forked repository that I am the only one with write-access, so it makes no difference. However, there is another repository (the "Extra" repository) which I am willing to add other users to the access list if they can help with it.
06:38:32 <zzo38> Does that make such a thing possible sometimes?
06:39:57 <kfr> I was thinking about making a functional language with only one type, integer
06:40:07 <kfr> Wait, I need lists obviously
06:40:13 <kfr> But they would be arrays really, I won't lie
06:41:20 <zzo38> kfr: Then make up ideas if you want to. But how can you have functional language if there is no function type? Maybe by making just lists of numbers to represent a function?
06:41:41 <kfr> zzo38 it's not really functional and not homoiconic either
06:41:54 <kfr> But you don't have sequential statements
06:42:09 <zzo38> kfr: OK, well, make it in whatever way you want to make it.
06:42:35 <oerjan> hey all you need is gödel numbers
06:42:59 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I think so.
06:43:32 <zzo38> (In fact that was also one of my idea in some programming language idea I had, where anything in square brackets gets converted to its godel number)
06:45:31 <zzo38> Do you have computer game ideas? I have had many different ideas for computer games (and other games)
06:45:38 <kfr> Then a string would just be an array of numerical codepoints haha
06:45:53 <kfr> This is starting to sound like emacs Lisp :[
06:46:21 <zzo38> kfr: There are some programming languages that do just treat strings as arrays of numerical codepoints.
06:46:28 <oerjan> i recall we discussed something like that, converting data types bijectively to numbers. although it had a bit of tendency to blow up when given long lists.
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06:47:00 <zzo38> You could even represent the lists as a natural number, too.
06:47:00 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:47:21 <oerjan> well of course that was the idea, and that encoding blew up
06:47:34 <kfr> I don't really need signed integers for a primitive self hosting compiler I think
06:47:41 <zzo38> (dc can use a number as a string, and treats the number as base 256 and then sends the string to output)
06:48:05 <oerjan> because it encoded conses, and did not balance very well when the tails got deep
06:48:23 <Lymia> Gregor, you have another segfault somewhere.
06:48:31 <oerjan> i think it was encoding brainfuck
06:48:40 <Gregor> Lymia: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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06:49:03 <zzo38> There are a few possible ways to encode multiple natural numbers in one number, one way is the INTERCAL interleave operator (but with unbounded size).
06:49:24 <oerjan> zzo38: hm yes that was suggested too
06:50:21 <Lymia> Have you considered rewriting this in a more memory safe language?
06:50:49 <kfr> I'd write the first compiler in Haskell
06:50:50 <Gregor> Bear in mind that I haven't looked at this code in years :P
06:50:52 <kfr> Because I hate myself
06:51:27 <Lymia> if (!progSpent[procnum][*pptr]) {
06:51:32 <Lymia> You have a segfault in there.
06:54:44 <Lymia> Gregor, screw this. Quick question.
06:54:53 <Lymia> Every thread executes one opcode every tick, right?
06:57:51 <zzo38> Is it sometimes strategically useful to sacrifice a wicket (without declaring)?
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07:22:14 <zzo38> Read computer game idea: gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/0textfile/miscellaneous/computergameidea
07:24:37 <zzo38> Have you played the game called "Tetanus on Drugs" or "Lockjaw: The OverDose"?
07:28:38 <fizzie> MATLAB strings are vectors of character codes.
07:29:10 <zzo38> fizzie: I didn't know that. Now I know. There are also other programming languages where strings are treated as list of character codes, too.
07:29:56 <fizzie> The data type for the vector is set to "char", though, which makes many more mathematical operators not act on them. I think in earlier versions it wasn't so strict about types, though.
07:30:46 <fizzie> But you can still do, for example,
07:30:49 <fizzie> >> norm(floor('hello'))
07:31:09 <fizzie> The "floor" operator doesn't care that they're chars, and after flooring it's just a numeric vector.
07:31:22 <fizzie> s/operator/function/ I guess.
07:33:10 <fizzie> Or you can sum them, that also throws away the flag that it's a string:
07:33:12 <fizzie> >> norm('you' + 'me!')
07:33:21 <oerjan> > sum.map((^2).fromEnum)$"hello"
07:33:40 <fizzie> (I used "norm" there just because it was the first thing that came to my mind that didn't really make that much sense for a string.)
07:33:54 <fizzie> (It's the Euclidean norm by default.)
07:34:11 <oerjan> > sqrt.sum.map((^2).fromEnum)$"hello"
07:34:12 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
07:34:25 <oerjan> > sqrt.sum.map((^2).fromIntegral.fromEnum)$"hello"
07:35:43 <fizzie> Yeah, it's not that many things that care about types.
07:36:06 <zzo38> Can it be done the other way around, to change a list of numbers to a string?
07:36:36 <fizzie> Yes. Well, in the sense that you can just pass a list of numbers pretty much wherever a string is expected. Though sometimes you need to put a char() around it so it gets the correct type.
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07:37:02 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes that is what I meant. OK.
07:37:19 <fizzie> 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110
07:37:19 <fizzie> >> disp(char(100:110))
07:39:38 <zzo38> Even in C, a string is like an array of char.
07:40:13 <zzo38> (Except, that it is null-terminated; arrays in C you cannot find the length easily because it is not stored with the array)
07:40:27 <zzo38> (unless you put it there)
07:42:12 <fizzie> Whereas in TCL, lists are just strings.
07:42:28 <zzo38> And is useful; you can even write something like *strchr(s,':')=0; if you want to cut off a string.
07:42:38 <fizzie> % puts [list "foo" "bar" "baz quux"]
07:42:41 <fizzie> That's one silly language.
07:43:23 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes it does seem like silly to me, too.
07:43:24 <fizzie> Every time you use 'lindex' to access one element of a list, it goes and parses that string.
07:45:44 <zzo38> fizzie: And that would make it slow, isn't it?
07:45:56 <fizzie> I think it is pretty slow, yes.
07:48:04 <zzo38> How fast is the strlen command in C anyways? Like, how fast would this be: while(i--) p+=strlen(p)+1;
07:48:55 <pikhq> Depends on your libc, but the worst case is going to be the obvious, naive loop.
07:49:41 <zzo38> Do some things also depend on the CPU?
07:49:43 <oerjan> how could it possibly do anything other than scan all of it?
07:50:41 <fizzie> oerjan: You're such a computer scientist!
07:51:11 <fizzie> Anyway, it can be a compiler builtin, in which case it might be able to deduce something, but I wouldn't count on that.
07:51:12 <pikhq> oerjan: Scan up to the right alignment, and then scan in words.
07:51:25 <fizzie> pikhq: That is also "scan all of it" to him, I'd wager.
07:51:30 <zzo38> oerjan: I do suppose it cannot work in any other way, but depending on the machine instructions some might be faster?
07:51:36 <pikhq> That is a fairly common optimisation, though obviously only changed constant factors.
07:51:38 <fizzie> As long as it's O(n) it's all the same.
07:52:17 <zzo38> pikhq: I guess scan in works might be a bit faster, but it has to scan each byte to find where it ends, so the scan words can only be used for reading memory not for calculating the length.
07:52:34 <fizzie> It can be done with REP SCASB or something like that on x86 too, but I think it's faster to do something word-oriented.
07:52:57 <fizzie> I do know glibc's memcpy tries to use the wide SSE registers and loops instead of the naive rep movsb.
07:53:27 <pikhq> zzo38: There's some moderately clever bitwise operations you can do on the words.
07:53:49 <zzo38> You could do it with: while(*string) string++,length++; but that doesn't deal words or optimize to the machine.
07:53:53 <fizzie> I recall one processor (maybe ARM, or SH-3 or something) that had a special opcode for "test if any of the four bytes of a 32-bit word equals 0", specifically for string-scanning.
07:54:03 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes maybe there is like that
07:54:28 <pikhq> zzo38: Even if it is more actual opcodes than the naive loop, it generally comes out on top because fetching from memory is expensive.
07:54:33 <kfr> rep movs* hasn't been efficient in many x86 generations if I'm not mistaken
07:55:16 <pikhq> zzo38: Though at this point for quite a bit of it we're comparing a register to an L1 fetch.
07:55:52 <zzo38> pikhq: It is possible, yes. Including if the processor allows accessing individual bytes of a register that was loaded from words.
07:56:35 <zzo38> But the instructions must also be stored in RAM, unless it is cached, which can make it faster.
07:57:15 <pikhq> Oh, dang. The BSD libc's one is also branchless for the checking-for-any-\0s.
07:57:44 <pikhq> That comes out quite a ways ahead on modern CPUs.
07:57:48 <kfr> I've seen the Dinkumware strlen implementation
07:57:52 <kfr> It used quite a lot of bit hackery
07:58:26 <pikhq> ((x - 0x01....01) & ~x & 0x80....80)
07:58:28 <fizzie> Current glibc strlen is like this: http://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=string/strlen.c;h=5f22ce95097d4090c6c32fc7cf6c2ef9cf6e86a8;hb=HEAD
07:58:39 <fizzie> I've seen it be more complicated-looking earlier, though.
07:58:45 <pikhq> That is non-zero if any of the bytes in x are 0.
07:59:26 <kfr> http://siyobik.info/index.php?module=pastebin&id=584
07:59:34 <kfr> That's the Dinkumware one
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08:00:54 <fizzie> glibc has machine-specific variants of some things (like memcpy) somewhere too, I just can't recall the folder and the web-repo isn't very find'able.
08:00:55 <zzo38> But I think that is only for 64-bit computers?
08:01:15 <kfr> No, that's AMD64 code
08:01:15 <pikhq> zzo38: It's for n-bit computers.
08:01:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, the algorithm is.
08:01:28 <kfr> Oh you mean the other one
08:02:27 <fizzie> Oh right, it was the sysdeps one.
08:02:34 <fizzie> Here's the x86-64 strlen: http://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=sysdeps/x86_64/strlen.S;h=28f828780e9b6449aa1ac077c53586ab0ec5e50d;hb=HEAD
08:03:08 <fizzie> Curiously on i386 it in fact does do repnz scasb.
08:03:48 <kfr> I once wrote an SSE strlen
08:03:50 <fizzie> glibc's memcpy is the one with all kinds of different-sized loops: http://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=blob;f=sysdeps/x86_64/memcpy.S;h=b4545ac9f704deb1b11e44be8ffa4bce03c9aab3;hb=HEAD
08:04:05 <pikhq> On an actual i386, I suppose repnz scasb would actually be reasonably efficient.
08:04:06 <fizzie> With prefetchnta's and movntiq's and everything.
08:04:17 <pikhq> What with a complete lack of pipelining.
08:04:30 <zzo38> What is the speed compare and energy compare between arithmetic operation and bitwise operation?
08:04:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Negligible.
08:06:00 <kfr> zzo38 it greatly varies
08:06:21 <kfr> Mind you, "arithmetic" includes multiplication and division :p
08:07:08 <pikhq> Ah, right, multiplication and division are relatively expensive operations.
08:07:25 <pikhq> Addition and subtraction are hardly distinct from bitwise operations.
08:07:27 <kfr> Integer multiplication/division used to be pretty harsh
08:07:34 <kfr> Nowadays they are pretty fast though, sec
08:08:06 <zzo38> x86 does have AAM and AAD commands, does GNU C compiler ever use those in a compiled program?
08:08:55 <pikhq> kfr: Still more expensive than addition, AKA "xor with carry".
08:10:02 <olsner> zzo38: those are removed (cause invalid-opcode exceptions) in 64-bit mode
08:10:17 <kfr> zzo38: Only a small fraction of the instructions are generally generated
08:10:36 <kfr> 32-bit MUL has a latency of 3
08:10:39 <kfr> 64-bit MUL has a latency of 5
08:10:53 <zzo38> olsner: Is AAA also removed, or not?
08:10:54 <kfr> ADD, SUB, AND, OR, etc are all 1
08:10:55 <Lymia> !fyb crash :......;@<++!*
08:10:59 <pikhq> zzo38: x86 is going to be treated by modern compilers a lot like a RISC with a lot of quirks and completely useless instructions...
08:11:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_crash: 3.2
08:11:57 <fizzie> And DAA, but that's not surprising either.
08:12:04 <pikhq> kfr: That's pretty impressive.
08:12:28 <olsner> pretty sure they removed all the BCD instructions
08:12:44 <fizzie> They also threw away PUSHA/POPA.
08:12:55 <kfr> Ah but DIV is still very expensive
08:12:56 <pikhq> Oh god *right* x86 has BCD instructions.
08:13:11 <kfr> The latency is roughly around 24
08:13:25 <kfr> Can be as great as 72 though
08:13:37 <fizzie> olsner: At least they've kept XLAT, so not all the really quirky single-use instructions have been eliminated.
08:13:52 <zzo38> AAM and AAD are still seems useful for some kinds of multiplication and division (it is not limited to base ten and can be usable for things other than BCD), though.
08:13:54 <pikhq> I do know that compilers are pretty aggressive about optimising DIVs into bitwise operations whenever possible, at least.
08:15:36 <kfr> pikhq: That's just one special case for a constant divisor
08:15:47 <kfr> In general you use multiplication to achieve division by a constant divisor
08:17:18 <pikhq> Doesn't help at all with variable divisors, of course.
08:23:41 <zzo38> Sometimes using AAM and AAD and those kind of commands will make the program code smaller, but it will be slower.
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08:41:22 <kfr> Oh no, I just realised that I might have to optimise for tail recursion if I were to offer no execution flow control other than function calls (i.e. recursion)
08:42:18 <oerjan> to optimize for tail recursion, you have to optimize for tail recursion.
08:42:32 <zzo38> kfr: Yes you do, even TeX is designed optimized for tail recursion for the same purpose. Often at the end of one macro you might have a name of another macro which takes the next parameters from afterward
08:46:03 <kfr> Storing everything in nested arrays of integers must be brutal to do more structured programming though :/
08:46:11 <zzo38> The AAM command is a useful kind of divmod by a constant.
08:46:21 <zzo38> (For 8-bit values)
08:46:37 <kfr> It has a latency of 15 lol
08:47:02 <zzo38> And it sets zero flag according to the remainder.
08:47:28 <kfr> I won't have first class functions or polymorphism or anything like that though :|
08:47:35 <kfr> And strict evaluation, of course!
08:47:44 <zzo38> In places where you want small code, you could save many instructions.
08:47:49 <kfr> Not lazy like Hatkell
08:48:25 <zzo38> In some places in your program you might want fast code, and other places with small code, depending on the purpose of those sections of the code.
08:50:07 <zzo38> XLAT is not useless either.
08:59:09 <kfr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_syntax_and_symbols <3
09:01:08 <zzo38> I have also think, of one esolang idea, that instead of Unicode it uses the Computer Modern mathematics symbols and other symbols, including accents and overstrike.
09:24:34 <kfr> Doesn't ring a bell
09:24:39 <kfr> Googled, got mixed results
09:24:43 <kfr> zzo38 got an example of those?
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09:45:02 <zzo38> kfr: The Computer Modern typefaces are the ones used by default in TeX (although you can use your own fonts, too).
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10:33:44 <kfr> Wait a second! Strict evaluation in FP makes no sense!
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10:44:11 <kfr> if blah [print "a"] [print "b"]
10:44:18 <kfr> Would print ab haha
10:44:24 <kfr> Damn side effects!
10:44:58 <zzo38> You can make a functional programming language that doesn't have side effects then
10:45:27 <kfr> Yeah I was just thinking about that
10:45:34 <kfr> It just takes crap from stdin in the beginning
10:45:53 <kfr> But hmm in the end it must print something
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10:46:13 <zzo38> kfr: It should print the result of the entire program
10:46:49 <kfr> I was also thinking about how I can avoid out of range errors on arrays entirely
10:46:57 <kfr> By making it impossible somehow
10:47:19 <kfr> I'm not just talking about range checks
10:47:30 <kfr> I'm talking about preventing it in the semantics of the language somehow
10:47:50 <oerjan> needs dependent types afaiu
10:48:01 <kfr> Oh no, like Agda?
10:48:12 <kfr> That sounds complicated
10:50:36 <kfr> Or I could just refuse to provide any kind of just being able to access a particular index.
10:51:46 <oerjan> just mapping and for loops? right but that could be inefficient for some things
10:51:46 <kfr> Oh, but even head on an empty list would cause a runtime error
10:51:57 <kfr> Haha efficiency is the least of my concerns
10:52:02 <kfr> This is just nuttery
10:52:15 <ais523> kfr: welcome to #esoteric!
10:52:30 <ais523> dependent types are interesting in that they solve a lot of problems
10:52:35 <ais523> but people consider them too much effort anyway
10:52:39 <zzo38> One way is to not have a array index command
10:52:40 <ais523> perhaps they're even correct
10:52:57 <kfr> zzo38 but you need to have some way to access an element in an array
10:53:34 <zzo38> kfr: You can have maybe some map that passes the index number and value to a function, for each element in the array.
10:53:39 <oerjan> :t Data.Array.Mutable.Array i x -> [(i,x)]
10:53:46 <zzo38> And also the return value becomes the new value in the array.
10:53:52 <oerjan> @hoogle Data.Array.Mutable.Array i x -> [(i,x)]
10:53:53 <lambdabot> --count=20 "Data.Array.Mutable.Array i x -> [(i,x)]"
10:54:10 <zzo38> This way you can change a value by making a function, that check the index number, if it is the one you want to change, return a new value, otherwise return the old input value.
10:54:14 * oerjan isn't getting this right
10:54:26 <oerjan> @hoogle Array i x -> [(i,x)]
10:54:26 <lambdabot> Data.Array.IArray assocs :: (IArray a e, Ix i) => a i e -> [(i, e)]
10:54:26 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Graph lpre :: Graph gr => gr a b -> Node -> [(Node, b)]
10:54:26 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Graph lsuc :: Graph gr => gr a b -> Node -> [(Node, b)]
10:55:05 <ais523> hmm, apparently the resurfacing of example.com broke darcs
10:55:49 <kfr> I thought about providing nothing but the following types: Int, [Int], [[Int]], [[[Int]]] etc
10:55:55 <kfr> To make it really simple
10:56:04 <ais523> oerjan: the test suite checked to see whether 404s were handled properly by looking for a nonexistent page there
10:56:23 <ais523> they changed it to http://darcs.net/nonexistent in order to make sure the page was a 404
10:58:53 <ais523> kfr: to make it even simpler, just provide [[[[[[...]]]]]]
10:58:54 <oerjan> zzo38: i think if you use that method there is little reason to use an array rather than a linked list, since you are always updating all of it
10:59:10 <ais523> oerjan: arrays have better cache performance than linked lists
10:59:14 <kfr> ais: Huh? I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean
10:59:45 * oerjan has been officially declared O(n)-blind
11:00:41 <ais523> kfr: the only type is a list of that type
11:00:50 <kfr> Hm but the easiest way to take care of this index issue is to simply check the size whenever there's an access and when it's out of bounds -> terminate and print an error
11:01:04 <ais523> I think that's enough support for data in the language in order to bootstrap arithmetic
11:01:22 <oerjan> kfr: i thought you said you _didn't_ want to just do range checking
11:01:25 <ais523> (I'm the sort of person who tends not to add arithmetic to a language unless it actually needs it, except maybe in a wimp mode)
11:01:43 <kfr> oerjan: I can't come up with a better way :|
11:02:20 <kfr> ais523 I want to make a self hosting compiler so I'll have a hard time without any arithmetic
11:02:25 <oerjan> ais523: that [[[...]]] seems almost exactly what elliott seemed to be constructing a few hours ago
11:02:54 <ais523> oerjan: I think it's what Ursala does behind the scenes
11:03:10 <ais523> and OK, Ursala's not technically an esolang, but it's still hilarious
11:03:21 <oerjan> mind you he also wanted to use only "natural" list operations
11:03:24 <ais523> (it's in the same sort of category as BancSTAR)
11:03:56 <oerjan> and of course it is also in some sense what ZFC set theory does
11:04:04 <kfr> Have any of you actually written a self hosting compiler for anything?
11:04:28 <kfr> Or even opcode generation from an intermediate form in general?
11:05:48 <ais523> hmm, I've written a bunch of compilers, but I'm not sure if any self-host
11:06:11 <kfr> ais523 oh so you have dealt with code generation?
11:06:22 <kfr> IA-32/AMD64?
11:06:55 <ais523> mostly because I'd hate to, say, have to write an INTERCAL compiler in INTERCAL
11:07:07 <ais523> kfr: I rarely go all the way to asm
11:07:14 <oerjan> self-hosting those circuit compilers ais523 seems to be doing would be something impressive
11:07:15 <fizzie> I've written one Scheme compiler that with the "I'd like to have something self-hosting" thought, but it got sort of abandoned mid-way; the compiler works fine, and does compile a reasonably large set of code, but I don't think it quite does itself yet.
11:07:24 <kfr> I wouldn't even generate assembly
11:07:28 <ais523> with esolangs, translating to C or a similar low-level lang is enough
11:07:36 <kfr> ais523: Weak
11:07:41 <ais523> oerjan: indeed, I'd love to pull that off, but it seems a little implausible
11:08:04 <ais523> the hardware compilers would go to VHDL/Verilog
11:08:10 <ais523> kfr: there's nothing really special about asm, though
11:08:22 <ais523> I've also done some work on gcc-bf, but it's far from finished
11:08:32 <ais523> (a brainfuck-targeting backend to GCC)
11:09:01 <ais523> and that goes via an asm I designed for the purpose of targeting BF
11:09:08 <ais523> really, though, gcc is a mess for that sort of thing
11:09:17 <ais523> perhaps I'll look at modern gcc with its plugin architecture, or llvm
11:09:48 <fizzie> I have that Funge-98 compiler too, but it really isn't self-hosting, and also quite incomplete.
11:10:00 <ais523> oh, funge-98 in funge-98?
11:10:03 <Ilari> Haha... How to fail password security: Give user password they can't change and the password is weak (dictionary word!)...
11:10:10 <ais523> how far does it get in Mycology?
11:10:13 <fizzie> ais523: No; that's why it's not self-hosting. :p
11:10:23 <ais523> that could be an interesting project
11:10:37 <fizzie> I guess if you're targeting Funge-98 it's easy. :p
11:10:46 <ais523> although funge is basically impossible to compile no matter what lang you write the compiler in, that's the whole point
11:11:03 <fizzie> There's that 93 self-interp, befbef.bef or whatever.
11:11:11 <fizzie> A bit limited when it comes to code-space.
11:11:21 <ais523> (without just cheating by copying yourself to negative space, copying the input program into positive space, then deleting yourself and running into the start of the input program afterwards)
11:11:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure if anyone's done a proper Funge-98 one. I *think* there was one, but not entirely sure.
11:13:02 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters does list two self-interpreters for -93, but none for -98.
11:13:53 <fizzie> Anyway, there's also a reasonably large subset of Funge-98 programs that can be compiled completely statically.
11:14:37 <fizzie> (Even without going to absurd lengths.)
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11:20:28 <Ilari> The ones that don't ever execute potentially modified code?
11:22:29 <fizzie> Well, that's a hard condition to detect. But you can approximate. (And you could handle some programs that do; say a program does '>00p in one place and '<00p at another; that's just flipping a branch at (0,0).)
11:22:53 <fizzie> My static compiler does a very heuristic code-flow analysis when it comes to complicated things like j.
11:23:11 <fizzie> Where "heuristic" is here in the traditional meaning of "half-assed".
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11:28:10 <kfr> I'm not sure what UTF-8 symbol I should use for the if statement hmm
11:28:48 <fizzie> Oh no, I feel a nitpick coming onto me.
11:29:45 <fizzie> Here it comes: there is no such thing as a "UTF-8 symbol"; it's just an encoding for Unicode. (And the Unicode glossary doesn't define a meaning for "symbol" either, but I'm not *that* nitpicky.)
11:30:12 <zzo38> In Plain Texnicard, what should be the maximum number of set symbols per set, and what should be the maximum number of modes per set symbol? (Their product must not exceed 256.)
11:31:10 <kfr> fizzie is UTF-8 encoded codepoint any better?
11:31:34 <zzo38> (For example, of each symbol comes in two sizes, with one border color (or gradient), and one fill color (or gradient), then you need four modes: border of small symbol, border of large symbol, fill of small symbol, fill of large symbol.)
11:31:47 <fizzie> Well, that's fine, I guess, though I don't quite see why to mention UTF-8 at all, unless you're choosing the code point based on how pretty the encoded bits are.
11:31:53 <fizzie> For some reason I kind-of like the idea of using the "option key" symbol for if -- that is, ⌥ -- but it's really obscure.
11:32:09 <kfr> Well, for the choice it doesn't matter but the compiler will depend on a particular encoding
11:32:10 <ais523> zzo38: make them both 16 as a starting point, if you run out of one but not the other you can shift the requirements
11:32:45 <kfr> fizzie haha I'd like to see the set that one is from
11:33:02 <zzo38> ais523: OK, that should work. It was my first thought, 16 of each.
11:33:07 <fizzie> The block is the "miscellaneous technical" one, the same place that has all the APL symbols.
11:33:12 <zzo38> I do suppose I can change it later.
11:33:24 <kfr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%8C%A5
11:33:42 <zzo38> fizzie: Is the "option key" symbol the one also called the "place of interest" symbol?
11:33:57 <zzo38> No, never mind. I am wrong
11:33:59 <fizzie> zzo38: No, that's the "command key".
11:34:13 <zzo38> The "command key" symbol is the "place of interest" symbol.
11:34:22 <zzo38> I made a mistake since I never use Apple computers
11:34:47 <zzo38> (I did make the "place of interest" ("command key") symbol in METAFONT, once.)
11:35:00 <zzo38> I think I did the option symbol, too.
11:36:03 <kfr> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/miscellaneous_technical/utf8test.htm
11:36:07 <kfr> It's from that set haha
11:36:50 <fizzie> It's got the silly top/bottom halves of integrals and sums and brackets, too.
11:36:53 <zzo38> I think METAFONT is a good program to design fonts.
11:36:56 <fizzie> Like the name says, "miscellaneous".
11:37:32 <fizzie> ⎇ is another alternative for ⌥.
11:43:37 <fizzie> If you want the totally obscure character for "if", use U+1D30E TETRAGRAM FOR BRANCHING OUT: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1d30e/index.htm
11:44:39 <fizzie> There are quite a few other useful programming-related concepts in the block, too, and they all look alike, which will make the language look more harmonious. Not to mention harder to read.
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12:21:00 <kfr> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/tai_xuan_jing_symbols/utf8test.htm
12:21:03 <kfr> Definitely not.
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12:47:29 <Ilari> This IP address counter is going to hit zero today at this rate...
12:47:53 <Ilari> Okay, it shows first of february, but that could be the timezones.
12:47:54 * kfr is on an IPv6 only host
12:48:02 <kfr> Ping my hostname for great justice.
12:49:16 <fizzie> Aw, vanity v6 address assignments like that are so 2000s.
12:49:49 <Ilari> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 122.129/159.620/224.113/41.806 ms
12:49:49 <kfr> It's the AAAA only record :[
12:49:56 <kfr> Many people are irrtated by that
12:50:00 <kfr> irritated*
12:50:12 <fizzie> Sure, but using :fade:fade:fade:fade...
12:50:14 <kfr> They go like "aozomg it says unknown host!"
12:50:46 <kfr> Then again changing DNS records after you're on the server is even funnier
12:50:56 <fizzie> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 64.248/65.609/74.548/2.580 ms
12:51:01 <kfr> I fooled somebody into thinking I was connecting from microsoft.com once
12:51:14 <kfr> Or just removing the record entirely is hilarious, too
12:51:44 <fizzie> Occasionally I've wondered whether ping's "mdev" is in fact standard deviation or not. I would assume it is, but I'm not sure what the "m" is trying to say.
12:52:20 <fizzie> Oh, it's mean deviation.
12:52:28 <fizzie> Strange statistic to report.
12:52:57 <fizzie> Well, or maybe it's the std dev with a strange name.
12:53:10 <kfr> lol I am so going to use ⨝ for joining arrays.
12:53:30 <kfr> It's great that there are Unicode symbols for database relational algebra stuff
12:53:44 <Ilari> In some cases, it is easiest to just make up host ID. Such as when something blocks off RAs but not connectivity.
12:54:44 <Ilari> Yes, I have heard of cases where one has to manually configure IPv6 addresses and gateways and then it'll work.
12:54:50 <kfr> There's an insertion symbol: ⎀
12:56:05 <ais523> <kfr> I fooled somebody into thinking I was connecting from microsoft.com once <--- didn't they check forwards and reverse and make sure they were equal, like anyone should if they want to make sure that a DNS is authoratitive?
12:56:18 <kfr> Of course not
12:56:25 <kfr> Otherwise it wouldn't have worked, duh!
12:57:47 <fizzie> IRC servers don't tend to check either, and they only report the reverse-name they got (and not the address) in whois and such, so I don't see how a J. Random User could really check.
12:57:53 <Ilari> Weird stuff going on local systems: Two interfaces with the same IP, same IPv6 /64 used for two segments...
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12:58:35 <fizzie> I have a really hacky /64-sharing thing going on at home.
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12:59:31 <ais523> as in, why share a /64 when, say, a /60 would be trivially available?
13:00:01 <fizzie> ais523: The ISP only gives out a /64 to random home DSL connections. (Well, by default, anyway. Maybe it could be negotiable. But they could also ask for money there.)
13:00:20 <ais523> fizzie: oh, it's an attempt to persuade you to pay them more
13:00:40 <ais523> giving people just individual /64s is sort-of as contrary to the spirit of IPv6 as handing out /16s
13:00:59 <fizzie> Giving DSL users individual /64s sounds pretty much like the only sensible thing to do to me.
13:01:12 <Ilari> What hacks does that sharing do?
13:01:17 <fizzie> Otherwise you'd have to agree on one host identifier to use as a gateway and all.
13:02:41 <Ilari> fizzie: As in, what hacks?
13:02:51 <fizzie> Ilari: Well, since they only route the /64 to the link, not to any specific gateway, I have to add proxy-NDP entries for all hosts in the "inner" networks on the gateway (so the ISP's side finds them with ND); so I have a crude kludge that listens for router-solicitations in the inner network, sends faked replies back, then sets up proxy-NDP entries on the outer interface and single-host /128 routes for the inner machines in the inner interface.
13:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> 03:52:09 <elliott> oerjan: oh my god what sequence is that printing ← how does he not recognise Thue-Morse?
13:03:53 <Ilari> Ah, multiple layer 2 segments...
13:04:30 <ais523> fizzie: oh, I muddled /64 and /128
13:04:35 <ais523> yep, a /64 is entirely sane
13:04:42 <ais523> a single /128 would be ridiculous
13:04:53 <fizzie> Ilari: I used to do it by bridging the two network segments, then ebtables filtering so that only IPv6-protocol Ethernet frames got bridged, but that wasn't any prettier either.
13:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> THUE-MORSE RECOGNITION SHOULD BE TAUGHT IN ALL SCHOOLS AT THE AGE OF 7
13:05:30 <ais523> 01101001100101101001011001101001
13:05:44 <fizzie> ais523: From what I hear from a friend whose workplace has interwebs from the same ISP, getting a /56 was just a matter of sending an email to the service desk. It is possible it'd work for a home user too.
13:06:03 <kfr> Maybe ∑ is funnier for concatenating lists hmm
13:06:09 <kfr> Or arrays rather*
13:06:15 <ais523> hmm, what's to stop you just putting two different machines at different /128s in the same /64? anything?
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13:07:22 <Ilari> The problem is that ISP gateway has to be able to ND all the hosts in the network (if they are to be reachable).
13:07:31 <fizzie> ais523: You can't really split a /64, the stateless address autoconfiguration won't work. And also they just route the /64 into the link, not a particular gateway address, so you have to have the gateway reply to ND messages (like IPv4 ARP queries) that "hey, send packets for this IPv6 host into this Ethernet address".
13:08:57 <fizzie> (Also I've poked the RIPE registry with their prefix as a search query, and some dude who's listed in linkedin as "Systems Engineer" working at the ISP has a /48 assigned with a descr: field of "[person's name] DSL", so obviously with the right kind of connetions you'll get more addresses at home...)
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13:09:54 <ais523> OK, so why is Kraftfeld uploading esoprograms in JPEG format?
13:10:48 <Ilari> Wonder what's in that network if even /56 isn't enough? Just for bragging? PI space?
13:13:02 <fizzie> Well, "/48 to end-sites" isn't an unheard-of policy. I don't know how RIPE instructs people nowadays; their instructions list both /48s and /56s as popular end-site network sizes, and then there were some guidelines about how those are aggregated in the whois so that RIPE's WHOIS db doesn't fill up with many small networks.
13:13:15 <fizzie> The assignment was pretty old, I think.
13:14:34 <fizzie> Hm, isn't there a timestamp in inet6num whois entries, or is the client just not reporting that?
13:15:49 <fizzie> It might even have been that they were testing things out there.
13:21:02 <Ilari> The rate this IPv4 counter counts down addresses seems to be about 1300 addresses per minute.
13:21:18 <fizzie> Uh: http://www.db.ripe.net/whois?form_type=advanced&full_query_string=&searchtext=AMRM1-RIPE&do_search=Search&inverse_attributes=author&ip_search_lvl=&alt_database=RIPE&object_type=limerick&object_template=none
13:21:33 <fizzie> Why is the database full of poetry?
13:21:42 <fizzie> (Maybe "full of" is an exaggeration.)
13:22:05 <fizzie> remarks: Role object for limerick working group administrator(s)
13:22:05 <fizzie> remarks: This is the most secret object in the whole database
13:22:05 <fizzie> remarks: Don't ask who's behind this, nobody knows
13:22:05 <fizzie> remarks: Feel free to send in new limericks!
13:24:54 <Ilari> This counter is going to hit zero (at this rate) in about 8 hours 20 minutes...
13:27:30 <ais523> Ilari: until exhaustion of what? IPv4 addresses allocated to end-users? or just to the RIRs?
13:28:02 <Ilari> I don't know exactly what it counts: http://inetcore.com/project/ipv4ec/en-us/index.html
13:31:17 <fizzie> I think their "X-Day" is IANA depletion.
13:31:55 <Ilari> Note timezones... In UTC+2h and earlier timezones, the bottom number should hit 0 today.
13:32:23 <fizzie> The counter doesn't exactly look too scientific.
13:32:47 <fizzie> Given in how discrete blocks IANA gives those things out, counting down with a silly number like that is a bit movie-ish.
13:35:40 <Ilari> And of course, there are various uncertainities in IANA allocations. Remeber the 5 blocks being surprise-allocated last fall?
13:36:54 <fizzie> I remember it... like it was yesterday. [Cue dreamy background music and a fade to a flashback sequence.]
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13:49:24 <Ilari> 1300 addresses per minute... That's about a /24 every 12 seconds... /16 every 50 minutes...
13:50:43 <Ilari> v6 allocation rate is a good bit higher than 1300 addresses per minute...
13:51:15 <fizzie> A /24 of IPv6 every 12 seconds would be 101412048018258352119736256430080 addresses per minute.
13:51:22 <fizzie> I doubt it's quite that high.
13:54:34 <fizzie> Maybe they should've started to number those things from the other end when the /N notation started.
13:55:32 <Ilari> APNIC's been allocating about 1 /48... Per second.
13:56:16 <fizzie> Pshaw, that's just 72535549176877750482370560 addresses.
13:58:25 <Ilari> Worldwide, that rate is probably double that... So about 140 septillion addresses per minute...
14:00:34 <fizzie> Allocating one /47 per second would mean a total exhaustion in just 4.5 million years. Worrisome.
14:06:05 <fizzie> Given that Egypt no longer seems to care about being part of the internet, maybe we could just reclaim all their v4 space? (Though according to one page that's just 0.17x/8.)
14:07:20 <Ilari> Heh... One of the NANOG51 schedule events (for tomorrow) is titled: "Panel: IPv4 Exhaustion What Now?"
14:09:15 <fizzie> "This is a track to expand on the panel I did at NANOG 50" -- called "IPv4 to IPv6 Transition and Co-Existence Experiences". Maybe the panel-moderator thought a more catchy name would help.
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14:29:56 <kfr> This is a hello world in a primitive esoteric semi-functional language (i.e. no state/side effects except for writing the return value of the program function to stdout when it terminates) which is statically typed (everything is an unsigned integer, or an array of unsigned integers, or an array of an array of ..., functions aren't first class objects, though) and uses prefix notation with lots of Unicode stuff: http://siyobik.info/misc/esolang/prime.html
14:30:18 <kfr> I took some of the symbols from APL
14:30:56 <kfr> Phantom_Hoover: What
14:31:04 <kfr> You don't like it? :[
14:31:21 <Phantom_Hoover> kfr, no, it's just that Agda has completely spoilt gratuitous Unicode for me.
14:31:40 <kfr> Doesn't Agda actually use ⇾
14:31:43 <kfr> Or something like that?
14:32:39 <kfr> The first one to figure out the meaning of all the symbols used gets a cookie
14:32:40 <ais523_> kfr: I like the look of it, at least
14:32:57 <kfr> I can't even imagine how complicated it would be to write a self hosting compiler in this...
14:34:04 <kfr> Yeah, just the end of the function definition
14:34:09 <kfr> (nested functions are not supported)
14:34:20 <kfr> :O it's just a name
14:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, why the hell are you using lambda for named functions?
14:34:46 <kfr> I couldn't come up with a more suited Unicode symbol
14:34:58 <kfr> And I wanted to have a prefix symbol for functions
14:35:14 <kfr> Then it would be more difficult to parse!
14:35:21 <kfr> It would require like... lookahead!
14:35:25 <ais523_> hmm, this computer lab's just gone crazy
14:35:32 <ais523_> nobody has any permission to access anything
14:36:00 <ais523_> it's as if someone ran chmod -R 000 / on the entire network
14:36:00 <kfr> Although with the ◼
14:36:00 <kfr> it's superfluous for sure hm
14:36:15 <kfr> Urgh fail paste again, hatred against the hidden newlines from Firefox
14:36:20 <ais523_> I'm in the middle of a marking session atm, but it's kind-of hard to mark when I can't even open a terminal
14:36:55 <kfr> There is no pattern matching :|
14:37:01 <ais523_> luckily Firefox happened to be open at the time, and is still working
14:37:08 <kfr> Phantom_Hoover: It's the if operator
14:37:28 <ais523_> also, the entire system's gone really unresponsive
14:37:29 <kfr> Syntax: ⌥ predicate thenValue elseValue
14:37:55 <kfr> = # primes 0
14:37:55 <kfr> means length primes == 0
14:38:37 <kfr> | is the APL modulo thing
14:38:58 <kfr> So err 0 == number `mod` iterator
14:39:12 <kfr> Hah, that's the recursion operator
14:39:30 <kfr> It just calls the current function it's used in again
14:40:11 <kfr> The ≡ stuff is just supposed to be some let stuff, but it doesn't have a value in this notation hmmm
14:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you want to do two mutually recursive functions?
14:40:20 <kfr> Whereas it should really
14:40:53 <kfr> Well you can explicitly call other functions, the recursion operator was just a joke abbreviation
14:42:14 <kfr> Ah wait, actually you can basically interpret the ≡ stuff as let ... in constructs right now
14:42:21 <kfr> That's just []
14:42:30 <kfr> [] :: [Int] if you so wish
14:42:42 <kfr> Concatenation of arrays
14:43:17 <kfr> △ x is [x]
14:43:47 <kfr> ○ is just head
14:43:59 <kfr> ↓ is the APL drop operator
14:44:24 <kfr> The ▷ in the signature contains types
14:44:32 <kfr> x means integer
14:44:37 <kfr> ▷x means an array of integers
14:44:44 <kfr> ▷▷x means an array of array of integers
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14:45:28 <kfr> The program writes its main return value to stdout in the end, you can't explicitly do any IO in the language itself
14:46:23 <kfr> △ 256 has a codepoint which is too large for that, for example
14:46:28 <kfr> Since that would be more than 0xff
14:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, with that, input passed as an argument and lazy semantics you can do full-featured IO.
14:46:45 <kfr> Not sure how to handle those cases
14:46:57 <kfr> Just skip it perhaps
14:47:06 <kfr> Or split it up into multiple Char8
14:47:21 <kfr> Anyways yeah this is really terrible
14:47:35 <kfr> Doing structured programming wich such a primitive set of operations must be a huge pain
14:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Structured programming is an imperative thing, for a start.
14:48:52 <kfr> I mean, I wanted to come up with a simple esolang I can write a self hosting compiler for
14:49:32 <kfr> Huh? It compiles to IA-32/AMD64 PE/ELF
14:50:23 <Phantom_Hoover> High-level abstractions and easy self-hosting do not go particularly well together.
14:50:23 <kfr> Why not? :D
14:50:43 <kfr> But this one is actually easy to generate code for, I think
14:51:10 <kfr> It's very primitive.
14:51:32 <kfr> But imagine representing uhmm some intermediate form in this thing
14:52:04 <kfr> I will map them to the native word size
14:52:09 <kfr> So 32-bit or 64-bit
14:52:32 <kfr> But imagine storing everything in a [[[[Int]]]] or something like that
14:52:35 <kfr> It must be terrible
14:52:46 <kfr> That would be weak.
14:53:15 <kfr> It needs to generate everything itself
14:53:25 <kfr> It would be a self hosting cross platform compiler
14:53:30 <kfr> Otherwise it isn't impressive really
14:53:59 <kfr> Yes, it has no inference at the function level
14:54:17 <kfr> There is just Int, [Int], [[Int]], etc
14:54:28 <kfr> All based on the number of the triangles in front of the name
14:54:33 <kfr> In the signature
14:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you guarantee that tail call elimination will be performed?
14:55:00 <kfr> I have no idea how to go about that really
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14:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, if you have a function f x = g <some expression>, when you compile it into assembly, there will be an instruction to call g.
14:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So f will work out <some expression>, push it onto the stack (or whatever, I'm doing this based on the x86 C calling convention), then push its current point of execution, then jump to g.
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14:59:25 <kfr> I was mostly worried about using up too much memory with the recursion
15:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If g = f in that example (and there's a condition so it stops somewhere) the stored points of execution can overflow the stack, which is why you eliminate it.
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15:03:49 <ais523_> hmm, it's been ages since I've been in /this/ lab
15:04:02 <ais523_> (strangely, this is unrelated to the earlier issue, which somehow fixed itself after a while)
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15:31:35 <kfr> There, wrote a small introduction: http://siyobik.info/misc/esolang/prime.html haha
15:32:28 <kfr> I guess you would have to write tons of helper functions to retrieve properties from implicit structures stored in massively nested arrays
15:32:35 <kfr> In more sophisticated programs
15:35:06 <kfr> Phantom_Hoover: 3 / 2 == 1 :p
15:36:17 <kfr> Forgot to mention the unsignedness, right
15:43:33 <ais523_> also, wtf: SourceForge hacked (not wtf), they make a full disclosure post talking about what happened (not wtf), many comments complain about the loss of CVS and talking about how much better it is than SVN (wtf)
15:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> kfr, well, there's one small way you can delay your firey death at elliott's hands.
15:45:48 <kfr> Phantom_Hoover why would they want to slay me?
15:45:59 <kfr> Because of my esolang example?
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15:53:11 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I doubt elliott will slay anyone for VCS choice until scapegoat is finished
15:53:18 <ais523_> and then demand everyone switches to it at once
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15:54:01 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I'm surprised that there are people who think CVS > SVN, though
15:54:07 <ais523_> even people who hate SVN generally hate CVS more
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16:06:07 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, the main complaint about SVN I've heard from elliott is "it's supposed to be 'CVS done right', which is impossible".
16:10:34 <ais523_> I thought that was a Linus Torvalds quote/misquote?
16:15:27 <fizzie> The impossibility, or the first part? I don't know where it's from, but I do think SVN people characterize themselves that way.
16:18:15 <ais523_> hmm, perhaps it wasn't Torvalds, I can't find anything relevant on wikiquote
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16:26:47 <kfr> <ais523_> I thought that was a Linus Torvalds quote/misquote?
16:26:52 <kfr> That's a correct Torvalds quote
16:26:56 <kfr> I watched that presentation
16:43:43 <quintopia> has the toilet paper orientation wp page gone viral?
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17:07:37 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Sometimes toilet paper is simply entertaining.
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17:09:01 <ais523> hmm, theory: there's a serious attempt to get that article featured in time for it to be put on the Main Page on April 1
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17:14:08 <ais523> hmm, apparently that theory is incorrect, I know where the discussions for such things take place and that article hasn't been suggested
17:16:52 <ais523> I was thinking about it, but I don't have the time to carry such a nomination through
17:19:28 <ais523> btw, in our house, the toilet paper isn't placed in a dispenser at all
17:19:34 <ais523> but just left to stand on end
17:24:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's mostly unnecessary, in that the :::-style version of wiki communication is both simpler and more flexible
17:24:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there are a couple of points in its favour, like less strain on the database.
17:35:18 <ais523> it's like Canada, except zzo38
17:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence it is ten orders of magnitude more crazy than normal Canada.
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17:45:52 <quintopia> Someone come up with a language that is deserving of the name Bugger Overflow please.
17:49:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps it is named that way because whenever you write programs in it you end up saying "bugger, overflow!"
17:50:35 <ais523> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day!
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18:17:55 <elliott> 06:36:06 <Lymia> I assume a normal language with convoluted enoguh syntax will do.
18:17:56 <elliott> no, we hate those. generally
18:18:00 <elliott> 06:36:21 <kfr> Supporting both Windows PE and Linux ELF
18:19:14 <elliott> It looks like he's fallen into the old trap of "weird syntax = interesting esolang".
18:19:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Works for me. Download the binary, perhaps it was updated.
18:20:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The...site?
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18:20:30 <elliott> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
18:20:38 <elliott> Did you think it was pay-for or something?
18:20:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You realise that programs get updated.
18:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt somehow that it has broken in the interval between us getting it.
18:21:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sigh. What error.
18:21:33 <cheater00> is there a language in which the concept of sequence convergence is the basic concept you work with?
18:22:11 <elliott> 07:02:48 <oerjan> i think it was encoding brainfuck
18:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64
18:23:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you need 32-bit sdl.
18:23:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you are starting it with ./df right?
18:24:21 <elliott> well, i don't have 32-bit sdl here and it works
18:26:09 <elliott> In addition to the hardware requirements (which will be the same as the other
18:26:09 <elliott> platforms) your system will need these libraries installed:
18:26:10 <elliott> And some kind of OpenGL implementation, so:
18:32:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, you just have to figure out the solution yourself because I don't know.
18:46:20 <cheater00> o shit, eye of sauron! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomalhaut
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18:50:10 <quintopia> what qualifies a language as being "Low-level"...is it anything remotely tarpit-like?
18:50:57 <ais523> quintopia: basically, it's tarpits, to some extent or another
18:51:05 <ais523> including ones which aren't really minimized
18:51:22 <ais523> basically, if you need to go through stupid hoops to even do simple arithmetic, it's probably low-level
18:52:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
18:52:21 <ais523> but, say, befunge-98 is what I'd consider "high level" in esolang terms
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18:52:35 <ais523> good library support, no real hoops other than those inherent in the structure
18:53:10 <quintopia> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ETAS
18:53:16 <elliott> ais523: underload isn't low-level
18:53:27 <elliott> but both have non-trivial arithmetic
18:53:30 <ais523> elliott: I consider underload low-level
18:53:31 <elliott> (OK, underload not so much)
18:53:42 <ais523> precisely because you have to build everything from the ground up
18:53:46 <ais523> even arithmetic and flow control
18:53:52 <ais523> you can't get much lower than that, in an abstract sense
18:54:04 <ais523> it isn't low-level in the sense that it strongly resembles machine code for an actual machine
18:54:13 <ais523> but then, what esolang does, apart from some of the asms that aim at BF?
18:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, the best advice from #debian wrt DF was "use a chroot".
19:10:15 <elliott> 10:48:08 <kfr> Wait a second! Strict evaluation in FP makes no sense!
19:10:15 <elliott> 10:58:36 <kfr> if blah [print "a"] [print "b"]
19:10:15 <elliott> 10:58:43 <kfr> Would print ab haha
19:10:15 <elliott> 10:58:48 <kfr> Damn side effects!
19:10:32 <elliott> non-strict evaluation doesn't help you there either, unless you specify a guaranteed evaluation order
19:16:25 <elliott> 11:13:18 <ais523> kfr: to make it even simpler, just provide [[[[[[...]]]]]]
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19:16:30 <elliott> ais523: you stole my language!
19:16:36 <elliott> ais523: i was INSPIRED by ursala
19:16:41 <olsner> what's [...]? quoting?
19:16:47 -!- calamari has left (?).
19:17:01 <elliott> ais523: he means "is it quoting?"
19:17:13 <elliott> ais523: MY LANGUAGE which I was going to tell you about anyway
19:17:21 <elliott> you know how at the base of ursala, every object is
19:17:53 <elliott> ais523: I took it ONE FURTHER.
19:18:03 <elliott> ais523: Everything in my language is one of those.
19:18:08 <olsner> I don't get how a deeply nested list is meaningful in the context of kfr's example, so I don't think ais523 meant that?
19:18:14 <elliott> (Accordingly, you can describe it as a tree without even using anything other than lines.)
19:18:30 <elliott> olsner: kfr said he'll just have Int, [Int], [[Int]]
19:18:37 <elliott> and ais523 proposed [[[[[[[[[[...]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
19:19:30 <elliott> 11:16:50 <oerjan> ais523: that [[[...]]] seems almost exactly what elliott seemed to be constructing a few hours ago
19:19:30 <elliott> 11:17:19 <ais523> oerjan: I think it's what Ursala does behind the scenes
19:19:35 <elliott> ais523: omg, you're skipping ahead of me
19:20:28 <olsner> elliott: hmm, as in the language would only support list-of-list but not anything deeper?
19:21:21 * olsner still doesn't know what anyone is talking about
19:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> What's that command that lists the currently-mounted filesystems?
19:21:27 <elliott> olsner: obj := nil | cons obj obj
19:21:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you may also find df useful
19:22:17 <elliott> ais523: how does ursala do naturals? in mine, a list of N []s is N
19:22:27 <elliott> i.e. 0 = [], 1 = [[]], 2 = [[],[]], 3 = [[],[],[]]
19:22:47 <ais523> elliott: you think I know that sort of thing offhand?
19:22:51 <ais523> it's almost certainly insane, though
19:23:23 <elliott> ais523: I already have operations on (T = [T]) for +, *, and ^ though, that work correctly when using naturals of that form
19:23:28 <elliott> and do something to other lists that may or may not be useful
19:23:43 <elliott> * is cartesian product, except instead of (x,y), it returns (x++y)
19:40:50 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I finally understand why ursala requires those explicit casts
19:41:17 <ais523> elliott: because it doesn't know the type the rest of the time
19:41:23 <ais523> type info isn't tracked at all
19:41:44 <elliott> ais523: in my language, 3 = [0,0,0] = [[],[],[]] = [nil,nil,nil] = [0,nil,[]] = ...
19:41:49 <elliott> (OK, nil is just a name for [], but still.)
19:41:55 <elliott> ais523: oh, = [0,false,[]] too
19:42:21 <elliott> I *think* types are created by writing a clause for is_valid
19:42:21 <ais523> overload was based on that principle, but even simple data structures were infinitely recursive
19:42:28 <elliott> for instance (in a Haskell-style language):
19:42:52 <elliott> is_valid int x := x == [] || (car x == [] && is_valid int (cdr x))
19:43:09 <elliott> and then if you cast e.g. [[[]],[]] to int, it'll fail
19:43:46 <elliott> ais523: and I think "object files" (a huge list of 0s and 1s, where 1 is cons and 0 is nil) will have a first line consisting of an expression representing the type
19:43:51 <elliott> list_of int\n111101010101011...
19:44:09 <elliott> most commonly "module", I guess
19:47:02 <elliott> ais523: "There is no reason for function application to be left associative in a language without automatic currying, and no reason for automatic currying in a language that distinguishes notationally between product spaces and function spaces (unlike lambda calculi)."
19:47:10 <elliott> ais523: I don't understand this, do Ursala functions not compile to the basic object type?
19:48:18 <ais523> hey, SCI distinguishes between product and function spaces; and it does currying /and/ pairing in order to write functions that take multiple args!
19:48:28 <ais523> that Ursala quote has offended me slightly
19:48:36 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: I don't understand this, do Ursala functions not compile to the basic object type?
19:48:37 <ais523> as finding a reason to make the distinction is the whole point of much of my research
19:51:04 <Ilari> The counter is under 148k now... No allocation yet as far as address space registry is concerned.
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20:17:01 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to grue.
20:17:10 -!- joaopizani has left (?).
20:27:17 <grue> I'm wearing sunglasses
20:27:23 <grue> I got with the times
20:27:40 * grue picks at his teeth to remove bits of elliott
20:29:04 * impomatic activates his Frobozz Magic anti-grue kit
20:29:46 <grue> nah, got the vaccine against that
20:29:53 * grue eats impomatic
20:30:29 * impomatic grumbles about the rules governing grues as he perishes :-(
20:31:45 -!- adventurer has joined.
20:32:14 -!- adventurer has left (?).
20:32:25 <grue> I am a constructive proof of the existence of grues
20:32:26 <elliott> CRAFT STICKS AND WOOD INTO WOODEN SWORD
20:32:27 * grue eats quintopia
20:32:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:32:32 <elliott> KILL GRUE WITH WOODEN SWORD
20:32:49 <grue> elliott: you're in my stomach and don't have a wooden sword
20:33:06 <quintopia> grue: stop talking. you don't exist.
20:39:28 -!- grue has changed nick to copumpkin.
20:44:25 <cheater00> You are in open forest, with a deep valley to one side.
20:44:26 <cheater00> The trees of the forest are large hardwood oak and maple, with an
20:44:26 <cheater00> occasional grove of pine or spruce. There is quite a bit of under-
20:44:26 <cheater00> growth, largely birch and ash saplings plus nondescript bushes of
20:44:26 <cheater00> various sorts. This time of year visibility is quite restricted by
20:44:28 <cheater00> all the leaves, but travel is quite easy if you detour around the
20:45:53 <Ilari> Hmm... This depletion counter probably just uses 0000J on the calculated depletion day as the time...
20:49:03 <Ilari> (If the timezone is different than UTC+2, see if you get a different number than about 73k on http://inetcore.com/project/ipv4ec/en-us/index.html
20:49:38 <elliott> 11:46:19 <fizzie> For some reason I kind-of like the idea of using the "option key" symbol for if -- that is, ⌥ -- but it's really obscure.
20:49:41 <elliott> fizzie: Not among Mac users.
20:52:49 <Ilari> elliott: What you get there as number of IP addresses? :-)
20:53:23 <elliott> counting down rapidly of course.
20:53:42 <Ilari> Ah... So it is apparently just midnight local timezone...
20:54:24 <elliott> 14:15:04 <fizzie> Allocating one /47 per second would mean a total exhaustion in just 4.5 million years. Worrisome.
20:55:15 <olsner> I assume you've already discussed the news at length, but "All remaining allocatable IPv4s would now fit into a /9 prefix"
20:57:09 <Ilari> Isn't there about 22x/8s of total free IPv4 space? That doesn't fit in /4...
20:58:35 <Ilari> (the sum of all RIR and IANA pools, minus known reservations)
21:01:03 <olsner> I'm not entirely sure where those numbers come from :)
21:01:09 <elliott> hmm, now I'm wondering how to represnt function objects like this
21:01:21 <olsner> I guess it comes down to defining "allocatable"
21:02:40 <elliott> 16:20:41 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, the main complaint about SVN I've heard from elliott is "it's supposed to be 'CVS done right', which is impossible".
21:02:40 <elliott> 16:25:09 <ais523_> I thought that was a Linus Torvalds quote/misquote?
21:02:46 <elliott> quote, yes, but it's not exactly a hard opinion to formulate
21:03:20 <olsner> torvalds expressed it with more vitriol than that
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21:03:47 <elliott> IIRC no that was the exact quote, plus some extra
21:04:01 <elliott> "When I say I hate CVS with a passion, I have to also say that if there are any SVN (Subversion) users in the audience, you might want to leave. Because my hatred of CVS has meant that I see Subversion as being the most pointless project ever started. The slogan of Subversion for a while was "CVS done right", or something like that, and if you start with that kind of slogan, there's nowhere you can go. There is no way to do CVS right."
21:04:07 <elliott> So, with enough [...]s, the quote is accurate. :p
21:04:44 <olsner> I seem to recall him calling everyone on the svn project idiots as well
21:04:55 <olsner> but maybe it was more implied than literal
21:06:02 <hagb4rd> do you prefer an alternative cvs solution?
21:06:32 <olsner> the final cvs solution, perhaps
21:07:22 <olsner> only for CVS, for everyone else it's more of an epiphany
21:07:54 <Vorpal> I looked a bit at DF. People compared it with minecraft. However it reminds me of nethack more (though not in genre), but it looks harder.
21:08:02 <olsner> elliott: what is that scapegoat thing?
21:08:04 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it has strong similarities to Minecraft.
21:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott, but is it harder than nethack?
21:08:19 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance, a large part of the game is mining ore, which you can melt, and then make into pickaxes.
21:08:44 <elliott> Well, "harder"; it's certainly much, much deeper. I think it's not so hard to keep a fortress going after you've played for a while, but doing interesting things certainly doesn't look too safe.
21:08:53 <elliott> olsner: well you see, it's a version control system based on BLAME.
21:09:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course you do it all indirectly with dwarves, but they're stupid enough that you basically manually hand-hold them through it.
21:09:35 <Vorpal> elliott, so like minecraft with a hundred pickaxes at once?
21:10:02 <olsner> elliott: Be Lame, gotcha
21:10:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't know how practical coordinating a hundred dwarves to mine would be.
21:10:41 <olsner> elliott: BLAME, BLame, B Lame, Be Lame
21:10:50 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that what DF is about?
21:11:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I think keeping the dwarves alive is what it's about. :p
21:11:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover read that long Let's Play (although old; of the 2D version), ask him.
21:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, so what is an usual population?
21:11:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover read that long Let's Play (although old; of the 2D version), ask him.
21:11:27 <elliott> I haven't actually played.
21:11:31 <Vorpal> elliott, also does DF have any easy mode so you can learn the damn gameplay ?
21:11:38 <elliott> I got scared off when the initial screen had an awful lot of characters and many, many menu items.
21:12:00 <olsner> elliott: no but seriously, what's BLAME?
21:12:17 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it now then
21:12:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Now it's 3D displayed in cross-section 2D.
21:12:23 <elliott> olsner: Yes. It's based on blame.
21:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, Boatmurdered had a population of around 100 at its peak, but it wasn't exactly a pinnacle of competent management.
21:12:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Incidentally, the largest world it will generate is less than 300x300. :p
21:12:57 <olsner> elliott: hmm, ok... so what does that mean?
21:12:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Boatmurdered was done with the 2D version.
21:13:06 <elliott> olsner: Basically, every patch is done in terms of other patch.
21:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hm. But they had mines, which aren't exactly possible in 2D.
21:13:18 <elliott> olsner: An example change is "insert STRING between CHANGE and CHANGE", where each CHANGE is the hash of another change.
21:13:28 <elliott> olsner: The version control system keeps track of what change created which lines.
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21:13:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is there any sort of easy mode so you can learn the game mechanics without caring about monsters. Kind of like nethacks's explore mode
21:13:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's what they were.
21:13:43 <elliott> Dwarf Fortress initially supported 2D landscapes only, with X and Y axes corresponding to the four cardinal directions. Later versions added a Z axis – multilayered maps – while retaining two-dimensional graphical representation. This allows for geographic features like hills, mountains, and chasms and player-created features like multilevel fortresses, waterfalls, above-ground towers, elaborate deathtraps, and pits.
21:13:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah okay
21:13:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Man up and play the game properly. :p
21:14:06 <elliott> Vorpal: This is the philosophy:
21:14:10 <elliott> Either way, it keeps you busy.
21:14:10 <elliott> There is no internal end point, single goal, final Easter egg or "You Win!" announcement in Dwarf Fortress. Therefore, eventually, almost every fortress will fall. The only ones that don't tend to be very conservative and very boring—and what fun is that? Therefore, DF = losing /\ DF = fun => losing = fun, and that's okay! It's a game philosophy, so embrace it, own it, and have fun with it!
21:14:10 <elliott> Most new players will lose their first few forts sooner rather than later; when you lose a fortress, don't feel like you don't understand the game. Dwarf Fortress has a steep learning curve, and part of the process (and fun!) is discovering things for yourself. However, this Wiki serves as an excellent place to speed up the learning process.
21:14:13 <elliott> If you lose, you can always reclaim fortress or go visit it in adventurer mode.
21:14:15 <elliott> If you're looking for more ways to test yourself, try either the mega construction or the Challenges articles.
21:14:20 <elliott> http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Losing
21:15:00 <elliott> Having said that, I do want to create my own MC-esque game now...
21:15:12 <elliott> I have figured out the most inane way to make the game difficult ever.
21:15:28 <elliott> Specifically, a game mechanic that means that you absolutely cannot start a reasonable mine until you do a LOT of things.
21:15:48 <olsner> elliott: I see, I think... so do you group those patches into things like files and commits afterwards?
21:16:07 <elliott> *You can only mine the block in front of you or above you*. Not downwards. To make a mine, you have to excavate tunnels with dynamite.
21:16:15 <elliott> To get dynamite, you need expensive materials... expensive materials that you get from mining.
21:16:29 <elliott> To get those materials, you make *animals that dig* follow you into the mine, and hope they dig good paths.
21:16:40 <elliott> To get the animals, you need, e.g. a dog, to sniff them out, and food, to make them follow.
21:17:00 <elliott> olsner: Erm, no. But a commit is just a patch.
21:17:11 <elliott> olsner: Specifically, there is a type of patch called a changeset, that is just a set of other patches.
21:17:22 <elliott> olsner: They're applied in the order of dependencies (i.e. if p1 depends on p2, p2 is applied before p1).
21:17:32 <elliott> olsner: To add a line to a blank file, you do:
21:17:39 <elliott> Insert "hello world" (StartOfFile FILEHASH) (EndOfFile FILEHASH)
21:17:53 <elliott> olsner: Each file has its own start-of-file/end-of-file patches.
21:18:19 <olsner> how do you create the file?
21:18:26 <elliott> olsner: (A file itself is referenced in the same way, by blaming a patch: the hash of the change that added the file to its directory.)
21:18:37 <elliott> (The permissible patches working on directories are basically like those on files, except they don't involve order.)
21:18:37 <hagb4rd> basic idea is not to save complete files but only the changes made
21:19:10 <elliott> (so there's "Insert FILENAME which is a [file|directory] into DIRECTORY", where DIRECTORY has to refer to an Insert patches that "is a directory".)
21:19:18 <elliott> (and also "RootDirectory", which is the patch you start off with.)
21:19:40 <hagb4rd> yes.. patch fits this issue
21:21:45 <Ilari> Heh... The amount of addreesses this gives would already fit into /17...
21:22:09 <olsner> and the current state of a (branch|repository) is just a single changeset that depends on a bunch of other changesets?
21:22:55 <olsner> is there any kind of branching support?
21:23:05 <elliott> olsner: well, it's more like a set of changes (otherwise i think you could technically end up with a repository with only one file as a freak accident)
21:23:30 <elliott> olsner: if two changes conflict, that's an automatic branch right there, because you can either have one or the other
21:23:38 <elliott> and you can also add branches specifically; ais523 can explain more when he's here
21:23:53 <elliott> olsner: the advantage of blame is that it makes very accurate merging *very* easy to implement
21:24:05 <elliott> olsner: and also basically eliminates fake conflicts... but also adds more conflicts that aren't caught by other VCSes
21:24:34 <elliott> olsner: it's what ais come up with after learning that darcs' merging model was insane :P
21:24:47 <olsner> designed to be even more insane? :P
21:24:54 <elliott> olsner: no, this is perfectly sane
21:25:00 <elliott> darcs' is insane in the "makes no sense" way
21:25:23 <elliott> I forget the name but the main TAEB guy looked into patch theory and concluded that it was a load of twaddle and that the merging algorithm didn't make any sense at all
21:25:52 <olsner> Tactical Amulet Extraction Bot?
21:27:58 <olsner> so I guess the guy you're talking about is sorear which is short for a name I don't recall?
21:28:10 <oerjan> <elliott> Having said that, I do want to create my own MC-esque game now... <-- /me read that as M.C. Escher
21:28:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: insufficient commenting on how perverse my evil early-game idea is
21:30:02 <elliott> Vorpal: THAT'S NOT A COMMENT
21:30:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you updated mcmap, btw?
21:31:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Nukeray, a.k.a. the non-Euclidean raytracer that I have wanted to do for ages.
21:46:07 <Ilari> Num of IP addresses at 0. Estimated days to x-day... 1...
21:47:55 <Ilari> Reloaded the page, it estimates X-day today...
21:49:36 <olsner> Ilari: which page btw?
21:51:26 <Ilari> http://inetcore.com/project/ipv4ec/en-us/index.html ... But apparently it uses timezones...
21:52:38 <olsner> oh, so that's why you're already out while I still have 68k addresses on the counter?
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21:54:31 <olsner> Ilari: something like that, it's 23:09 here
21:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, incidentally, DF has an option in world generation for natural savagery and number of beasts.
21:57:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:58:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MY EARLY-GAME CRAZY
21:59:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Although Escherian geometry would make it even better.
21:59:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But awesome.
21:59:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Come on, having to get a pet, use it to find digging animals, lure them with food into a cave, hope they dig in the right places, and hope it leads to useful minerals without eating them?
22:00:47 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: ? <-- non-Euclidean raytracer.
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22:10:28 <elliott> Output XXXXX UTF-16 characters beginning at DP. (Note that a UTF-16 character is the same length in digits as an instruction.)
22:12:12 <elliott> quintopia: because unicode takes up more than 16 bits
22:12:25 <elliott> only UTF-32 can encode every codepoint in one fixed size.
22:12:32 <elliott> Output XXXXX UTF-16 characters beginning at DP. (Note that a UTF-16 character is the same length in digits as an instruction.)
22:12:37 <elliott> UTF-16 (16-bit Unicode Transformation Format) is a character encoding for Unicode capable of encoding 1,112,064 numbers (called code points) in the Unicode code space from 0 to 0x10FFFF. It produces a variable-length result of either one or two 16-bit code units per code point.
22:12:49 <elliott> quintopia: UTF-16 is stupid, yes, but it's mainly "backwards compat"
22:12:55 <elliott> originally unicode was 16-bit
22:12:57 <elliott> and UTF-16 was called UCS-2
22:13:03 <elliott> but then it got expanded to ~21 bits IIRC
22:13:07 <elliott> and UTF-16 was created based on UCS2
22:13:25 <quintopia> so if changed that to say UCS2, it'd be right? :P
22:14:05 <quintopia> eh, i could also just write "where possible"
22:14:08 <elliott> UCS-2 is obsolete and cannot encode any even vaguely recent Unicode version.
22:14:10 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:14:26 <elliott> U+64321 in utf-16: 0xD950, 0xDF21
22:14:52 <elliott> quintopia: just say "Output XXXXX UTF-16 code units beginning at DP."
22:14:57 <elliott> quintopia: and remove the note
22:15:09 <elliott> quintopia: code units meaning, U+64321 would have XXXXX=2
22:16:40 <quintopia> elliott: or i could just remove the note.
22:17:01 <quintopia> so if you start a 2 code point character it finishes it for you :P
22:17:16 <elliott> quintopia: no, you have to s/characters/code units/, UTF-16 doesn't define what a character is anyway
22:17:22 <elliott> and "code points" would mean that e.g. length=1 could scan /two/ bytes ahead
22:17:28 <elliott> your impl would have to be UTF-16 knowledgeable
22:17:30 <elliott> just saying "code units" is better
22:17:39 <elliott> because things that get encoded into two 16-bit values just have length 2
22:18:25 <quintopia> although i'm not sure what you said
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22:19:30 <elliott> <elliott> quintopia: just say "Output XXXXX UTF-16 code units beginning at DP."
22:19:30 <elliott> <elliott> quintopia: and remove the note
22:20:05 <quintopia> but what happens when it outputs the first half of a double length character as the last unit?
22:21:29 <elliott> It doesn't really matter. :p
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22:25:46 <elliott> quintopia: I highly doubt that language is TC.
22:25:58 <elliott> I don't see any way to do anything conditionally.
22:26:03 <elliott> But it's very non-obvious.
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22:27:21 <quintopia> elliott: well, let me know if you come up with a proof either way
22:27:56 <quintopia> not that you need to actually think about it
22:28:12 <quintopia> if it comes to you in a gestalt, all you need do is describe the proof and i will fill in the details
22:28:56 <elliott> that doesn't happen to me.
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22:31:16 <quintopia> in any case, i think conditionals are possible (if difficult) by combining TRANSFORM with JUMP
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22:31:42 <quintopia> may even be possible without TRANSFORM, iunno
22:35:21 <Ilari> 039/8 APNIC 2011-01 whois.apnic.net ALLOCATED
22:35:29 <Ilari> 106/8 APNIC 2011-01 whois.apnic.net ALLOCATED
22:36:18 <Ilari> 102, 103, 104, 179 and 185 are still marked as unallocated.
22:37:39 <elliott> oerjan: well it was inevitable that it would happen before the end of the month.
22:37:48 <elliott> so it's not _too_ surprising
22:42:01 <olsner> so are we officially out of IP:s yet? :)
22:45:30 <Ilari> Nope... But the IANA has officially entered Exhaustion Phase
22:48:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:54:46 <Ilari> No further normal IPv4 allocations to RIRs will occur. There will still be 1x/8 handed to each RIR, and that's it.
22:55:18 <Ilari> Wonder which RIR is most depleted in IPv6 space...
22:55:23 <Ilari> *the most depleted
22:56:04 <elliott> so Ilari how long until rir depletion :)
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22:56:45 <Ilari> Very difficult to say...
22:57:00 <elliott> what do the models say? not that i expect them to be very accurate at this point
22:58:07 <Ilari> Models say end September... But those models may be hopelessly optimistic.
22:58:32 <elliott> Ilari: RIR depletion is not even the end, IIRC some university with an /8 says they'll donate it
22:58:38 <elliott> and probably many others with similarly huge allocations will
22:59:24 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:00:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:03:17 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia.
23:03:18 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
23:03:18 -!- Lymia has joined.
23:04:00 <elliott> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hhnjdplhmcnkiecampfdgfjilccfpfoe ;; didn't expect that from Google...
23:07:14 -!- TLUL has joined.
23:10:54 <Ilari> IPv6 usages: AFRINIC: 0.016%, ARIN: 1.5%, APNIC: 2.6%, RIPE: 3.4%, LACNIC: 6.3%.
23:11:43 <Ilari> So even the most depleted RIR (in terms of IPv6 space) still has >90% of /12 available...
23:12:02 -!- augur has joined.
23:12:11 <Sgeo> Depleted? IPv6?
23:12:36 -!- elliott has set topic: IPv6 has been depleted, tell your friends | http://esolangs.org/ | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:13:02 <Ilari> One of the allocations from LACNIC is a IPv6 /16(!).
23:13:11 -!- nddrylliog has joined.
23:13:30 <elliott> Ilari: what's that, like, seventy gajillion addresses? :P
23:13:52 <elliott> oerjan: topic is not mistake, it is troll
23:14:22 <Ilari> It is apparently the largest IPv6 allocation ever made by a RIR...
23:15:02 <elliott> it's actually 4 addresses, /16 is a special case
23:15:02 <Ilari> Seems so (5*10^33).
23:15:47 <Ilari> OTOH, what it was allocated to: The main LIR of Brazil...
23:16:17 <Ilari> Those guys need metric shitton of address space...
23:16:41 <elliott> WHAT IS IT WITH BRAZIL AND IP ADDRESSES
23:16:53 -!- Behold has joined.
23:17:25 <Ilari> 45% of entiere allocated IPv6 address space is marked as allocated to brazil...
23:18:08 <olsner> We demand: ONE HALF INTERNET
23:18:39 <nddrylliog> one half? are you kidding? I won't settle for less than OVER NINE THOUSAND.
23:18:52 <elliott> olsner: unfortunately they only got 9/20ths.
23:19:04 * elliott tells oerjan to swat nddrylliog
23:19:16 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
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23:20:33 <olsner> five thousand quadrillion quadrillion addresses
23:20:42 <pikhq> Ilari: Any idea when the final IANA assignments go out?
23:20:57 <nddrylliog> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=number+of+IPv6+adresses <- fail
23:21:29 <pikhq> Hmm. It's 15:35 at IANA.
23:21:45 <pikhq> It would be entirely plausible that they do it today.
23:21:57 <olsner> or just 5000 quintillion, if you're using "long scale" for large numbers, rather than "short scale"
23:22:18 <cheater00> nddrylliog: why are you interested in dresses?
23:23:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
23:23:51 <pikhq> If not today, then tomorrow, I guess?
23:24:13 <nddrylliog> cheater00, oh just a particular dress.
23:25:32 <nddrylliog> anyway, since we're off-topic: does anyone have an opinion on gnome-xchat? it sounds like a very gnome program - take the original, remove features, hinder settings, there you go.
23:25:42 <elliott> nddrylliog: It's very unmaintained.
23:27:50 <nddrylliog> ah, anyone has a name idea for that low-level declarative programming language I'm playing with?
23:28:35 <Sgeo> Because the world needs more single letter language names
23:28:46 <elliott> nddrylliog: it's not really that low level. :p
23:29:02 <elliott> Call it "crap", I bet nobody has ever called their programming language the crap programming language before.
23:29:12 <nddrylliog> elliott, yeah, indeed. The fact that you can write stuff like ([e1, e2] # self | e1.next == e2) => e1 == e2.prev is pretty neat
23:29:20 <Sgeo> elliott, that language you like
23:29:27 <elliott> Sgeo: That's merd, not crap.
23:29:42 <elliott> nddrylliog: Funny, in my programming language you can write "Sort the list of integers given on the command line." which is also pretty neat. :p
23:30:14 * Sgeo hits elliott with an Osmosian
23:30:26 <elliott> nddrylliog: Call it Oracle-Originating Compiler, because that's the only place you're going to find it.
23:30:32 <elliott> You could even abbreviate it and get a nice TLA.
23:31:00 <nddrylliog> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Og_(programming_language)
23:31:03 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:31:26 <Sgeo> Call it Stackoverflow
23:31:41 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:31:43 <Sgeo> Then declare nomic war
23:31:43 <elliott> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Og_(programming_language) <-- I like how this is just a thinly-veiled rant made by someone who really hates Go
23:31:47 <nddrylliog> I'd like to somehow make a reference to the fact that it's somehow impossible to implement.
23:31:54 <elliott> They could at least try and use the letter-swap for humour.
23:32:03 <nddrylliog> "The syntax of Og is pretty much the same old crap that we have been using for over 40 years which mostly comes from the C language. Blocks of code are surrounded with the usual stupid curly braces, it has the usual common control flaw structures including for, switch, if, and maybe even the universally despised go to" <- Hell yeah.
23:33:14 <Sgeo> They don't even mention magical make()?
23:33:16 <olsner> nddrylliog: you could call it ž
23:33:16 <olsner> (BARRIER CONTRACEPTIVE)
23:33:30 <elliott> Sgeo _really_ hates magic.
23:33:49 <Sgeo> No. I just hate magic I can't use for myself.
23:34:08 <nddrylliog> hey, I reinvented make() and go() in pure ooc in a few minutes
23:34:19 <Sgeo> ALL SYNTAX IS MAGIC. SYNTAX MUST DIE
23:34:23 <nddrylliog> and then I called off the Go guys in my talk, showing how I reimplemented their so-called novelties on top of my language
23:34:23 <olsner> hmm, not sure if that came across right, it's U+1621E
23:34:46 <nddrylliog> olsner, yeah.. I'm not sure about non-ASCII stuff. Well, I'm french and all but.. yeah, no.
23:34:49 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, the point of integrating those things in an stdlib is so that everyone uses it
23:34:58 <elliott> nddrylliog: Ignore Sgeo. :p
23:35:03 <nddrylliog> Sgeo, oh it's in the ooc standard lib now. Which means everyone is free not to use it.
23:35:03 <Sgeo> Although go and make() aren't stdlib level
23:35:03 <olsner> nddrylliog: seriously, choose one really obscure incode character and call it that
23:35:14 <olsner> your users have to find a special font to even read the name, it's awesome
23:35:26 <elliott> pronounced "see plus plus"
23:35:35 <olsner> then invent your own symbolic language in which the manual is written
23:35:55 * Sgeo is watching Hikaru no Go
23:35:56 <nddrylliog> I guess asking #esoteric for help really is not the best idea
23:36:21 <Sgeo> nddrylliog, put it on the wiki
23:36:21 <elliott> nddrylliog: I'm trying here!
23:36:27 <Sgeo> Then we can come up with a name
23:36:27 <olsner> you can put your symbol language in one of the private use ranges of unicode and make your own font for it
23:36:36 <Sgeo> (I just want the docs but am too lazy to logread
23:36:40 <nddrylliog> http://www.producemagic.com/Produce-Accounting-Software-Content.asp?CategoryID=5&ContentID=202 <- OH. MY. GOD. IT'S ALIVE.
23:37:03 <olsner> "pronounced Linenoise"
23:37:08 <Sgeo> <Ami> I'm tracking 2 nicks. Both nicks are for the same person.
23:37:08 <nddrylliog> elliott, one eighth of euros weird hyphen upper one what?
23:37:27 <nddrylliog> Sgeo, yeah as soon as I have half a decent spec/tutorial/examples I'll put it on the wiki
23:38:39 <nddrylliog> ooooh btw, forgot to ask - will any of you guys be at FOSDEM this week-end?
23:39:14 <elliott> don't be silly, it's probably populated with people who actually program and such
23:39:27 <Deewiant> VULGAR FRACTION ONE EIGHTH EURO SIGN NOT SIGN SUPERSCRIPT ONE, or ⅛€¬¹ for short.
23:40:25 <nddrylliog> the thing is, I really like the name (⅛€¬¹). I'll probably use it somewhere.
23:40:55 <elliott> You can even pronounce it nicely: "one eighth of a euro, not ... superscript ... one".
23:42:13 <olsner> it's a splendid name for an esolang it is
23:43:36 <nddrylliog> it'd need a... "usable" name for folder names and such, though
23:44:08 <nddrylliog> hey one8thenot1 is actually next to usable :)
23:44:24 <olsner> it reads as one-eight-the-not-one though
23:46:13 <elliott> nddrylliog: call it Point.
23:46:17 <nddrylliog> Now I'm feeling guilty about using braces in a programming language. should I?
23:46:43 <nddrylliog> bahh I could go S-expressions instead, but..
23:47:15 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:47:15 <nddrylliog> actually, I couldn't go for S-expressions, () is already meaningful
23:47:17 <olsner> ascii? that's a standard from 1963, you might as well try and be compatible with the apollo guidance computer
23:50:07 <elliott> nddrylliog: just have all the syntax totally redefinable. at runtime
23:50:26 <Lymia> Why are we talking about Lisp in #esoteric?
23:50:39 <olsner> Lymia: it's not us! it's nddrylliog
23:50:45 <Lymia> It would fi- *knived*
23:51:14 <quintopia> what is going on so much color i agh
23:51:26 <olsner> he may have merely been talking about S-expressions though
23:51:46 <quintopia> usually all the nicks are green because elliott is the only one talking...the activity is too much to handle
23:51:49 <olsner> elliott: maybe he in the, just like that
23:52:12 <elliott> quintopia: is that better?
23:52:19 * Lymia hides from the spam
23:52:22 <Lymia> Spam dosn't fix the problem!
23:53:08 <olsner> "No output." the bot does not want you kicking anyone
23:53:16 <quintopia> what was hackego showing up late for
23:53:26 <nddrylliog> "No output" is a terrible error message. Especially in bed.
23:54:08 <elliott> quintopia: lymia said "`-`" which is probably meant to be some sort of smiley
23:54:11 <elliott> except it just looks more like... uh
23:54:16 <elliott> a backtick, a hyphen and a backtick
23:57:16 <nddrylliog> I give you: the singly-linked list: http://bpaste.net/show/13387/
23:57:36 <nddrylliog> and now... the doubly-linked list: http://bpaste.net/show/13388/
23:59:33 <elliott> nddrylliog your element thing doesn't work god damn :p