←2012-11 2012-12 2013-01→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:42:46 <kmc> what's the best chess AI that can run on an ATtiny13 with 64 bytes of RAM under standard time controls?
00:43:11 <kmc> i think this would be more fun than writing a standard chess AI, and would require a lot more knowledge of the game
00:43:28 <shachaf> olsner: Neverhood!
00:44:45 <oerjan> so, a chess AI that hasn't room to store more than a handful of game boards. check.
00:44:52 <oerjan> (mate.)
00:45:54 <oerjan> (and that's with some clever compression.)
00:47:02 <oerjan> i guess you just need one game board and the ability to store undos to previous positions, to do a minimax thing.
00:48:11 <kmc> yeah
00:49:09 <oerjan> ok, good luck.
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00:52:07 <kmc> you also have 1kB of read-only code+data
00:52:18 <kmc> well actually you can write to it but sloooooowly and only a limited number of times
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01:11:31 <shachaf> hi monqy
01:11:35 <shachaf> hi monqy
01:11:48 <shachaf> monqy: what does do
01:12:12 <oerjan> eally not much
01:12:49 <shachaf> eally?
01:12:57 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott it's tomorrow now
01:13:01 <shachaf> Øh wëll.
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01:15:20 <zzo38> What is standard time controls?
01:17:57 <kmc> don't know
01:18:13 <kmc> FIDE gives "90 minutes for the first 40 moves followed by 30 minutes for the rest of the game with an addition of 30 seconds per move starting from move one"
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02:31:18 <zzo38> Now I made a GEN routine "s3msample" for use with Csound. S3M loop point is one after the end, and I do not know if this is the case with Csound.
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03:10:12 <zzo38> But it does not support Adlib instruments. Perhaps there could be a plugin or UDO which plays Adlib instruments?
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03:29:01 <zzo38> At least what I think would be a good way to design a file browser for UNIX computers would be, is, if you type in some wildcards and push some key to open the file list which you can click the left button to add to the command, and perhaps right button to preview (you can set up the preview command with another key).
03:29:07 <zzo38> What do you think?
03:36:54 * Fiora looks up, sees kmc's chess AI
03:37:29 <Fiora> 64 bytes... I guess you could fit a few bitboards in that
03:39:01 <Fiora> That might be tricky though, I wonder if that's even enough room to store stuff for alpha/beta pruning
03:39:25 <hagb4rd2> zzo038: yes your the ideas are good. but i really don't see why there must be a difference in the behaviour of a file browser and a http browser (for example). indeed i wonder why i need both..
03:39:34 <Fiora> I guess I
03:39:42 <Fiora> I'd even be worried about running out of just, like, temp space. like doing move generation
03:41:10 <zzo38> hagb4rd2: Well, it is useful for different things, and there are other reasons too, why it should differ in whatever ways.
03:41:39 <kmc> yeah, i think it would be a fun challenge because you would rely a lot more on heuristic tricks rather than tree search
03:41:50 <zzo38> I mean the terminal emulator would load it to allow you to select files and then the files you selected are put in the command line.
03:41:57 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: i dunno. there should be a a good way to browse through any hierarchical grouped data
03:42:15 <Fiora> writing a chess AI sounds like a lot of fun
03:42:24 <kmc> when i was judging students' othello AIs, it seemed that the ones that did reasonably well in very little time were more interesting than the ones that had a competent implementation of alpha-beta minimax that consumed the full available time
03:42:30 <Fiora> I used to do a good bit of chess stuff but I was more interested in the AI than in, like, the actual game ^^;;
03:42:41 <Fiora> othello AIs! I remember that
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03:43:08 <Fiora> there's still a ton of heuristic stuff in tree search though
03:43:21 <Fiora> like so much, I remember reading for days about it
03:43:31 <Fiora> and all the really complicated heuristics for gauging the state of the board
03:43:48 <Fiora> extensions, quiescence search...
03:44:23 <kmc> it would be a fun thing for a hacker con with programmable badges
03:44:23 <Fiora> and the horizon problem <_>
03:44:31 <kmc> to have a thing where you can program a chess AI onto your badge
03:44:36 <kmc> and then it plays against other people you encounter
03:45:04 <Bike> that is just about the nerdiest idea i've ever heard said
03:45:07 <Fiora> XD
03:45:14 <Fiora> my favorite chess AI thing though is nakamura beating rybka in blitz chess
03:45:22 <Fiora> and the horrid way he did it
03:45:31 <Bike> that was awesome
03:45:42 <Bike> assuming you mean the playbook hack thing
03:45:42 <Fiora> ( http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/20186536921/ )
03:45:54 <Bike> right
03:46:06 <Fiora> horizon effect abuse, plus 50-move-rule abuse
03:46:14 <zzo38> hagb4rd2: Well, I don't think HTTP really supports hierachical grouped data (although the file being served could be XML or something which does support it), which, the file manager should be difference due to such thing.
03:46:43 <hagb4rd2> i didn't try extensions which enhance the abilities of some browsers to browse files too, but i've heard they're out there
03:47:09 <hagb4rd2> sure there are differences on the technical side
03:47:37 <zzo38> Still I don't think it is such a good idea as a general purpose file browser though, even if a web browser does have a file browser function.
03:48:25 <hagb4rd2> maybe this is due to a kind of a strange meme
03:50:32 <kmc> Fiora: wow, nice
03:51:22 <Fiora> nakamura is terrifying
03:51:29 <Fiora> in a good way of course
03:52:39 <Fiora> the horizon effect is really tricky though with tree search stuff in general
03:52:51 <Fiora> since the AI can keep "putting off" an inevitable doom and make it look like it's not actually coming
03:52:59 <Fiora> but it's hard to prove that it is
03:53:35 <Fiora> @google chess programming wiki horizon effect
03:53:37 <lambdabot> http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Horizon+Effect
04:02:19 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: if no other routes are specified you can access files on a http server in the way their source is organised in files and directories on the server itself. nevertheless you can access all other routes with a string (typically by separating the tree level element names with a slash or sth)
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04:06:02 <hagb4rd2> on the other hand: who is typing urls anyway?
04:07:56 <hagb4rd2> (i know it was my stupid idea :)
04:08:23 <zzo38> I do type URLs sometimes.
04:09:06 <zzo38> However even though with HTTP generally (not always) the directory/filename is the URL, still HTTP doesn't have the option to list the files, so you have to instead output a HTML or XML file or whatever which list them.
04:09:18 <zzo38> But I am usually typing in the URL if I want one.
04:09:30 <kmc> WebDAV probably has a standard way to list them
04:10:18 <zzo38> Maybe it does, I don't know.
04:10:28 <hagb4rd2> that's right. file listing is not allowed by default.. or better say route listing (which could be an option in the future)
04:10:38 <zzo38> If you want file listing, use FTP
04:11:10 <zzo38> And for menus in general, you can use gopher.
04:11:20 <kmc> haha
04:11:35 <zzo38> Although I suppose you can also use Plan9 protocol for file access is another way.
04:12:31 <hagb4rd2> oh np, i could use even http
04:13:13 <zzo38> But if you want file listing, that is what FTP is for, not HTTP.
04:15:00 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: the issue was to provide a sitemap, to enable the user to browse hierarchical grouped data not beeing bounded to "old fashioned ways" beeing aware of where the data is physically stored
04:15:16 <hagb4rd2> i know there is no such standard
04:15:18 <zzo38> In that case, that is what gopher menu is for.
04:17:10 <hagb4rd2> i love the idea to mount anything as device :)
04:17:56 <hagb4rd2> on which i could just navigate like on my filesystem.. that's it
04:18:38 <zzo38> What I think is programs should expose a virtual filesystem (if they have one) in their directory under /proc/
04:19:09 <hagb4rd2> yes that comes closer to what i called a route map
04:19:10 <zzo38> So process ID 666 might have a virtual filesystem under /proc/666/fs/ or something like that.
04:20:46 <hagb4rd2> yep
04:21:58 <zzo38> So they should make it, if you have environment variable XPID for the X process ID, to access X clipboard buffers and stuff like /proc/$XPID/fs/PRIMARY and so on, as if it is like ordinary files.
04:22:17 <hagb4rd2> absolutely
04:22:24 <hagb4rd2> now we're at home brp
04:22:37 <hagb4rd2> :D
04:28:14 <hagb4rd2> also this tree should relly be pretty much orgnanized by the logical context rather than by physical storage or sth
04:29:48 <hagb4rd2> so the role in which the user behaves on the system might change the access (or even the structure)
04:32:56 <shachaf> monqy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPdzCZdvBp0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhACtJSCtq4
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04:36:03 <monqy> hi how did i know this would be return to the neverhood
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04:37:18 <shachaf> monqy: are you psychic
04:37:32 <monqy> that would explain it
04:37:45 <shachaf> monqy: or was it "bitter experience"
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04:38:01 <monqy> the bitter experience of you telling me to listen to return to the neverhood
04:39:03 <shachaf> monqy: yes that one
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06:11:29 <zzo38> If the sample rate does not mean the delay wanted is an integer number of samples, what is the best way to modify the delay buffer to more closely approxmiate the delay wanted more precisely?
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06:37:34 <zzo38> For example if the delay is 3.5 samples then how to make it closer to 3.5 rather than 3 or 4?
06:42:39 <kmc> apache is now disabling SSL compression by default
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07:07:01 <ifnspifn> if I were to build a program which just takes as input the Godel or "description" number of a Turing machine, along with an input, could the space of input for this program be correctly termed a "programming language"?
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07:07:30 <Bike> if you want
07:07:32 <quintopia> i'd say so
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07:07:51 <ifnspifn> Bike: well, would YOU call it a programming language? :P
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07:08:13 <Bike> i'd call it inefficient, have you /seen/ godel-encoded stuff?
07:08:38 <ifnspifn> I have; this isn't a practical project I'm planning on doing
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07:11:11 * Sgeo__ hasn't seen godel-encoded stuff
07:11:39 <Bike> you know how it works, right? code up something to encode strings or w/e and see for yourself
07:11:43 <Bike> hope you have bignums!
07:12:20 <quintopia> godel encoded programs are shorter than brainfuck programs if they use a good encoding
07:14:43 <ifnspifn> Sgeo__: here's the reference I've been using: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoedelNumber.html
07:15:15 <ifnspifn> Bike: I've got a few ideas in mind :D if it works out, I'll share it here
07:15:46 <Bike> ifnspifn: what ideas are those? so far you've just described the standard UTM definition
07:17:08 <ifnspifn> Bike: Well, I was going to go a few levels above just natural numbers, mostly for novelty/interest; in particular, I'm planning on making an interpreter which will read regular english words (e.g. an essay) and return a reasonably large godel number
07:17:36 <Bike> most probably won't correspond to valid programs, you realize
07:17:41 <ifnspifn> definitely
07:18:23 <ifnspifn> for demonstrative purposes, I'll start with some simple machine (Fibonacci, etc) have a dict.txt file and choose adequate words randomly
07:18:44 <ifnspifn> from there it might be the case that I can prune a somewhat sensible selection of words, but that's not necessary
07:19:39 <ifnspifn> if my text-to-natural number converter is flexible enough though, it should be possible to get a meaningful english snippet
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07:23:04 <Bike> any particular reason you're involving godel coding?
07:27:37 <ifnspifn> mostly because it's neat, and an interesting way to represent a TM
07:28:30 <Bike> well it's not just for TMs, it's for arbitrary strings of integers
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07:29:52 <ifnspifn> definitely! I actually started learning about its application to his Incompleteness theorems long before I started programming
07:30:19 <ifnspifn> the numbering system, although far from practical, has always struck me as very elegant
07:30:39 <Bike> you might be interested in looking at optimal coding
07:31:27 <ifnspifn> heh, funny you mention that. I'm currently in an introductory abstract algebra class, and got waaaaay over my head in Shannon's work with groups and coding
07:31:59 <Bike> you can find shannon's big paper on communication online somewhere, though it's a bit old now
07:33:07 <ifnspifn> I'll definitely check it out. I suppose the foundational papers are usually a good place to start, considering how technical the modern coding schemes are
07:33:20 <Bike> stuff like huffman coding is pretty easy to understand
07:33:53 <ifnspifn> oh yeah, I've got most of the basic schemes down
07:34:17 <Bike> shannon's paper is just about information entropy and stuff iirc, fundamental but hasn't changed much
07:34:46 <ifnspifn> this stuff though? *whoosh* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Golay_code
07:35:33 <Bike> things like "twelve-dimensional subspace" aren't nearly as scary as they look. just persevere, it'll make sense soon
07:37:17 <ifnspifn> good advice, thanks :)
07:37:34 <ifnspifn> I know my linear algebra has been neglected for one too many semesters..
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07:38:06 <Bike> maybe you should follow up your godel thing with representing tms as infinite-dimensional matrices, just to practice your linear shit
07:40:51 <ifnspifn> trying to imagine how that representation applies.. an infinite dimensional matrix would correspond to a TM's (potentially) infinite string, where each "digit" is a vector?
07:41:48 <Bike> nah, just to computable functions (note that I'm tired and not thinking this through)
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08:06:00 <Sgeo__> There are plenty of operations such that a `op` a = a + 1 but a `op` non-a is not necessarily a+1
08:06:22 <Sgeo__> f(a, b) = log_2 (2^a + 2^b) is one, but there's another
08:06:33 <Sgeo__> f(a, b) = (a+b)/2 + 1
08:07:15 <Bike> what about f such that f(a,a) = a+1 but f(a,b) = 37
08:08:12 <Sgeo__> Where a!=b ?
08:08:20 <Bike> yeah
08:09:10 <Sgeo__> Also f(a,b) = a+1 for all a and all b except when a=0 and b=1; f(0,1) = 0
08:09:38 <Sgeo__> Lots of easy ones, but ... there's something more interesting about the two I named, I think
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10:29:30 <FireFly> http://www.pltgames.com/competition/2012/12 cue the brainfuck derivatives
10:36:50 <FreeFull> Does it really list Befunge as a turing tarpit?
10:37:33 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel like living in a tar pit?
10:37:34 <fungot> fizzie: there is always a dumb fuck?
10:37:55 <fizzie> fungot: There's no call for that sort of language, young ma... uh... bot!
10:37:56 <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't output anything. either it has to
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10:46:56 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/REVERSE This reminds me of unefunge
10:51:10 <fizzie> Unefunge programs tend to be so >a#Eb#Dc#Cd#Be#A_-y.
10:51:46 <Deewiant> Use semicolons, be happier
10:52:27 <fizzie> There are probably really few (if any) bidirectional pieces of code in fungot.
10:52:28 <fungot> fizzie: and subtle cough too, sort of reminiscent of " the little schemer is a good approach
10:52:40 <fizzie> (There are also no semicolons.)
10:53:59 <fizzie> (There are three j's, and they're all jump tables.)
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10:55:25 <Deewiant> fizzie: Your style is too maintainable, you should be crisscrossing all over the place
10:56:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's just because I'm so stuck in the 93s.
10:57:04 <Deewiant> If you were actually stuck in the 93s you'd be forced to crisscross due to having only 80x25 space
10:57:37 <Deewiant> You don't have to use semicolons, in fact it's better if you don't because they make it too easy
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11:27:59 <fizzie> I'm mentally stuck, not physically stuck.
11:28:45 <fizzie> So I just naturally avoid the actually-new features, not things like increased playfield size.
11:28:59 <fizzie> I don't think I have any [] turnings in there either.
11:29:54 <fizzie> Oh, there's one.
11:30:29 <fizzie> It's actually just a combined v and ^.
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12:29:36 <Arc_Koen> being physically stuck in 1993 must be weird
12:30:34 <Arc_Koen> are you somehow sent back one year every year? or do you stay young forever?
12:42:47 <fizzie> I wouldn't know; I'm not stuck that way.
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15:19:03 <shachaf> This is some awful keming on Chromium's part: http://slbkbs.org/keming.png
15:20:30 <fizzie> Or is it an Unicom?
15:20:44 <Jafet> Is it related to the Farnicorn?
15:21:11 <shachaf> fizzie: The HTML source says Unicorn
15:32:36 * ion shivers at the horribly blurry font rendering in the screenshot
15:37:27 <olsner> hmm, shouldn't horrible keming be good kerning?
15:38:06 <shachaf> Maybe that's true.
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15:56:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fyi i was sleeping when you said it was tomorrow
15:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> that is understandable i guess
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16:41:53 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262018462/
16:46:17 <shachaf> ghc -e 'import System.Random' -e 'putStr . map ("╱╲"!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< newStdGen'
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16:51:27 <ion> > chr 205.5
16:52:05 <shachaf> Halfway between Í and Î?
16:52:30 <ion> yes
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16:57:30 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C64_Petscii_Charts.png
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17:01:40 <kmc> oh i see RND(1) returns a float between 0 and 1
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17:02:28 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/c64-8x8.png I made this once for an "ASCII-compatible" "C64-inspired" "high half is mostly line-drawing" thing.
17:05:20 <fizzie> I've forgotten what the £ is there for.
17:05:40 <fizzie> Some of the last characters are slightly application-specific, too.
17:06:38 <kmc> the book contains an equivalent program written in http://esolangs.org/wiki/PATH as well
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17:21:42 <elliott> ais523: hi
17:29:02 <elliott> ion: "Windwoes"
17:29:24 <ion> Yes, that’s what lead to my comment.
17:29:51 <elliott> ion: yes. but then I repeated it!
17:29:52 <shachaf> Windwhoas
17:37:00 <shachaf> ion: Oh, they were just being political.
17:43:39 <kmc> ╱╲ ╲ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╲ ╱ ╱ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╱╲
17:43:40 <kmc> ╲ ╲ ╲ ╱ ╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱ ╱ ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱
17:43:43 <kmc> buh
17:43:55 <kmc> ╱╲ ╲ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╲ ╱ ╱ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╱╲
17:43:56 <kmc> ╲ ╲ ╲ ╱ ╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲
17:43:59 <kmc> ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱ ╱ ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱
17:44:09 <fizzie> Oh, I thought those were some kind of runes.
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17:44:13 <kmc> haha
17:44:14 <shachaf> So did I!
17:44:18 <kmc> yes they do look runic
17:44:18 <shachaf> Reminded me of Myst or something.
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17:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, forgot the bottom part of the 1
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17:44:40 <FreeFull> I was thinking of a simple maze generator
17:44:44 <elliott> kmc: now make it work on the alphabet too
17:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> and the 7
17:45:04 <FreeFull> A simple way to generate mazes is to randomly print ╱ or ╲
17:45:11 <kmc> FreeFull: WOW REALLY TELL ME MORE
17:45:36 <kmc> (that is what we have been talking about)
17:45:48 <FreeFull> You have? Where?
17:45:51 <FreeFull> Oh
17:45:52 <kmc> rigth here
17:45:57 <FreeFull> Didn't see that
17:45:58 <olsner> I thought you were generating /// programs
17:46:18 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: you can't make them longer on an actual 7 seg display
17:46:32 <shachaf> kmc: Should I go to http://www.meetup.com/Stripe/events/92206302/ ?
17:46:32 <FreeFull> I don't know if all combinations of / and \ are valid /// programs
17:47:03 <FreeFull> kmc: do the whole alphabet
17:47:04 <shachaf> FreeFull: Also those aren't mazes.
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17:47:19 <kmc> shachaf: shrug
17:47:22 <kmc> probably
17:47:22 <FreeFull> shachaf: Well, they aren't guaranteed to have a way through
17:47:34 <FreeFull> Or to only have an unique way through
17:48:06 <shachaf> "We're trying something a little different this time: while the hackathon will still be informal and you're welcome to hack on anything you'd like, we're encouraging projects built on top of Stripe Connect (stripe.com/connect)."
17:48:20 <Phantom_Hoover> FreeFull, yes
17:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> unless maybe you had, like \ on its own at the end of the file
17:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> and nothing before it
17:48:56 <FreeFull> You can also use "|| __" as the random characters
17:49:00 <FreeFull> Or other stuff
17:49:59 <shachaf> I use "           " as the random characters.
17:50:03 <shachaf> 0020 SPACE [ ]
17:50:06 <shachaf> 00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE [ ]
17:50:12 <shachaf> 2002 EN SPACE [ ]
17:50:13 <shachaf> 2003 EM SPACE [ ]
17:50:13 <shachaf> 2004 THREE-PER-EM SPACE [ ]
17:50:13 <shachaf> 2005 FOUR-PER-EM SPACE [ ]
17:50:13 <shachaf> 2006 SIX-PER-EM SPACE [ ]
17:50:15 <shachaf> 2007 FIGURE SPACE [ ]
17:50:17 <shachaf> 2008 PUNCTUATION SPACE [ ]
17:50:20 <shachaf> 2009 THIN SPACE [ ]
17:50:22 <shachaf> 200A HAIR SPACE [ ]
17:50:25 <shachaf> Hmm, those lines were supposed to merge into one super-line.
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17:50:28 <shachaf> Oh, well.
17:50:30 <kmc> shachaf: you should make a brainfuck derivative
17:50:48 <fizzie> shachaf: What, no 205F MEDIUM MATHEMATICAL SPACE?
17:51:02 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm racist against mathematicians.
17:51:07 <kmc> space has a terrible power
17:51:19 <fizzie> 3035 IDEOGRAPHIC HALF FILL SPACE
17:51:19 <shachaf>
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17:51:56 <FreeFull> shachaf: They all look like a single space to me
17:52:15 <shachaf> FreeFull: Maybe you should put on your 3D glasses then.
17:52:44 <kmc> they are all a single space
17:52:53 <kmc> each of abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz is a single letter
17:53:22 <shachaf> I once heard U and I were together.
17:53:33 <shachaf> But I guess that was just a rumour.
17:53:44 <fizzie> OGHAN SPACE MARK is in the Zs "Separator, Space" category even though it has a line right through it.
17:53:49 <fizzie> OGHAM, I mean.
17:54:20 <fizzie> And the ETHIOPIC WORDSPACE is two dots, but at least it's Punctuation, Other.
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17:55:26 <FreeFull> kmc: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz don't look the same though
17:55:34 <shachaf> fizzie: What about ᠎
17:55:40 <kmc> well the spaces won't look the same either
17:55:43 <kmc> if you have the right font
17:55:56 <FreeFull> I'm in a terminal. Monospace fonts only
17:56:01 <kmc> well
17:56:03 <kmc> there's yer problem
17:56:04 <shachaf> kmc: In NetHack I used a configuration option that remapped ghosts to Xs
17:56:07 <shachaf> Instead of spaces.
17:56:12 <shachaf> "cheating?"
17:56:15 <FreeFull> shachaf: yes
17:56:27 <kmc> useful
17:57:02 <fizzie> shachaf: The MONGOLIAN VOWEL SEPARATOR is also whitespace, but at least it's empty.
17:57:54 <shachaf> fizzie: I THINK YOU MEAN personspace
17:58:05 <kmc> i'm still not clear on why all those emoji made it into unicode
17:58:27 <fizzie> kmc: GREEN APPLE.
17:58:40 <kmc> how do they draw the line between "a nonstandard character encoding with a bunch of new characters" and "a strange binary encoding for both characters and certain graphics"
18:00:04 <kmc> i'm going to invent ISO-8859-GOATSE where every codepoint above 0x7F is goatse
18:00:14 <pikhq_> Committee members debate it, basically.
18:00:29 <pikhq_> ... So, you'll probably not get that through unless you can convince people it should be done.
18:00:41 <pikhq_> In this case, Apple and Google proposed the emoji set initially.
18:01:06 <kmc> huh
18:01:11 <kmc> i thought they came from japanese mobile phone companies
18:01:23 <kmc> who were already using these characters in nonstandard encodings
18:01:31 <pikhq_> That's who made the characters in nonstandard encodings.
18:01:40 <pikhq_> Google and Apple are the ones who wanted them in standard encodings.
18:01:41 <kmc> i see, and apple and google pushed for them to become part of the UCS
18:01:50 <kmc> because they want to be able to compete in japan
18:02:01 <kmc> nobody will use Android if they can't text their friend a PILE OF POO
18:02:08 <pikhq_> Yup.
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18:09:20 <Bike> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4644 hey, rapido showed up on LtU!
18:10:52 <shachaf> elliott: That's an innovative GHC switch, don't you think?
18:11:26 <elliott> which
18:11:33 <elliott> oh
18:11:53 <elliott> Bike: haha
18:13:47 <elliott> Bike: "I'm not sure what the goal (or point) of this document is, and how you evaluate whether it accomplished it or not."
18:13:52 <elliott> very good
18:15:32 <Bike> apparently he wants a language with no runtime exceptions
18:16:17 <elliott> well, that's just a total language
18:16:33 <shachaf> elliott: You know the thing where State = Reader + Writer?
18:16:37 <elliott> you can, of course, represent division in such a language just fine... by giving it a proper type
18:17:22 <Bike> somehow i don't think he understands that
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18:26:56 <kmc> (/) :: (Num a, MonadPlus m) => a -> a -> m a
18:28:27 <elliott> kmc: ITYM div ::
18:28:44 <elliott> or even div :: Nat -> PosNat -> Nat etc.
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18:36:50 <kmc> div :: Nat -> (d :: Nat) -> Positive d -> Nat
18:37:08 <kmc> look at all the types i know
18:37:22 <Bike> i'm a bit curious what he even means by "destroying information"
18:37:29 <elliott> kmc: not the best infix operator
18:37:32 <Bike> like, is 14/2 supposed to be distinct from 7?
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18:54:40 <nooodl_> Bike: i think he just means, "x * 0 = 0 is bad"
18:54:53 <kmc> "0 but true"
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18:55:08 <AnotherTest> Hello
18:56:32 <Bike> nooodl_: yeah but i'm trying to put more thought into it than he did
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20:09:37 <oerjan> <Bike> i'd call it inefficient, have you /seen/ godel-encoded stuff?
20:10:55 <oerjan> you _can_ encode things more compactly than using prime factorization exponents, if you want. it's just that prime factorization exponents is intuitive to think about, even if not efficient.
20:11:42 <Bike> not for me, but of course that's very subjective
20:12:09 <oerjan> in fact we had a discussion some years ago about how to encode brainfuck programs bijectively to numbers, and you had to choose the coding carefully to avoid short programs giving huge blowup. but it is possible.
20:12:20 <elliott> did we ever come up with a viable encoding
20:14:08 <oerjan> i think so. wasn't there this fibonacci base encoding of a list?
20:14:55 <elliott> maybe
20:14:57 <oerjan> basically you took each value, wrote it in fibonacci base, interspersed 11 between them (which cannot occur in fibonacci base) and interpreted _that_ as binary.
20:15:14 <oerjan> it's reasonably balanced between the list elements, naturally.
20:15:42 <elliott> oerjan: um that doesn't work for a bijection does it
20:15:54 <oerjan> *fibonacci base beginning with 1 and ending with 0
20:16:13 <oerjan> i thought it did
20:16:19 <elliott> maybe it does idk
20:16:40 <oerjan> oh hm forget the *
20:16:57 <oerjan> i think there were some small details that needed to be just right to make it a bijection
20:17:36 <oerjan> or wait maybe you just interspersed 1
20:17:44 <oerjan> since they were already beginning with 1
20:18:05 <oerjan> and to reverse, you broke up the binary at strings of several 1's
20:19:29 <oerjan> hm that encoding may have had some trouble with deep nesting, though.
20:20:08 <oerjan> since there's a constant multiple of approxim. phi/2 for each level
20:22:01 <zzo38> I think I have had ideas about some encoding of brainfuck programs with natural numbers.
20:22:05 <zzo38> Maybe you could have that since all high bits are zero, they correspond to [] at beginning of the program, might be able to make it bijective.
20:22:48 <oerjan> ifnspifn: see above ^
20:26:53 <oerjan> ifnspifn: you might also be interested in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran
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20:34:58 <oerjan> <FreeFull> I don't know if all combinations of / and \ are valid /// programs
20:35:16 <atriq> "\" on its own isn't, I don't think?
20:35:22 <ifnspifn> oerjan: Fractran's nuts... thanks for sharing!
20:35:39 <oerjan> sure they are. there's a "if you don't have a complete command the program halts" rule.
20:35:47 <oerjan> ifnspifn: you're welcome!
20:36:22 <oerjan> and of course only the current command is parsed at all, since the rest can be changed at any time.
20:36:44 <oerjan> !slashes \
20:36:47 <EgoBot> No output.
20:37:16 * pikhq_ randomly notes that fopencookie is a neat interface
20:51:29 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:52:16 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
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20:52:47 <FireFly> Why, hello there
20:52:52 <oerjan> g'day
21:23:30 <fizzie> Mate.
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21:24:11 <oerjan> Check.
21:24:36 <elliott> fizzie: You should help me get IPv6 working!!!
21:26:17 <fizzie> oerjan: Sum.
21:27:03 <oerjan> Dim.
21:28:04 <fizzie> elliott: I can not fathom why it would not work. Does it work from irssi at all? If you, say, "/connect -6 -network Freenode chat.eu.freenode.net 6667".
21:28:27 <elliott> fizzie: Well, what I did from telnet was SSL-less.
21:28:35 <elliott> I guess I could set my irssi to non-SSL for a bit.
21:29:01 <fizzie> That /connect with explicit 6667 port should be SSL-less.
21:29:21 <elliott> Right.
21:29:24 <elliott> Will that do my autojoins and so on?
21:29:26 <elliott> I'm scared.
21:30:50 <zzo38> Maybe you have to run the autojoin macro manually after connecting?
21:32:00 <fizzie> elliott: I think with -network Freenode it should work just as if you would have added a temporary server to the Freenode network.
21:32:07 <fizzie> But I'm certainly un-sure.
21:32:14 <elliott> fizzie: I have to manually disconnect before doing that, right?
21:32:20 <elliott> Or it'll try to connect to both servers at the same time or something.
21:33:01 <fizzie> Mmmaybe, yes.
21:33:15 <elliott> I'm still scared.
21:35:07 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
21:35:42 <fizzie> I would be scared, too.
21:36:42 <elliott> fizzie: You should try it!
21:42:39 <fizzie> I'm too scared to.
21:43:05 <shachaf> elliott: Colenses are "pretty exciting huh"
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21:44:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Bulb, by the way.
21:45:15 <atriq> elliott, did you start the fortress yet
21:45:29 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
21:45:38 <elliott> I'm waiting for fizzie to try it.
21:45:45 <fizzie> atriq: How could he, with the IPv6 problem still unfixed? It's unthinkable.
21:46:27 <elliott> fizzie: C'mon.
21:46:29 <elliott> What could go wrong?
21:46:38 <fizzie> Everything would catch flame.
21:46:47 <atriq> I thought IPv6 didn't exist in the UK or something
21:47:07 <elliott> fizzie: It'll be exciting!
21:49:07 <oerjan> fizzie: Onion.
21:50:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Router.
21:50:11 <fizzie> I foresee a problem here.
21:50:22 <shachaf> ion: would i be a better person if i acquired ftl
21:50:40 <fizzie> Perhaps it would be best to nip it off in the bud.
21:50:44 <oerjan> fizzie: IPv6.
21:50:57 <oerjan> (nothing like merging the conversations, right?)
21:51:00 <elliott> fizzie: TEST IT
21:51:18 <fizzie> oerjan: Problem.
21:51:20 <fizzie> elliott: NOOO.
21:51:25 <ion> shachaf: No, but everyone else would be worse, so it would be a net win for you.
21:51:27 <oerjan> fizzie: Child.
21:51:54 <fizzie> I want to say "killer", but I'm afraid it might have negative social consequences.
21:52:51 <shachaf> ion: Do I need OpenGL for it?
21:53:56 <ion> shachaf: yes
21:54:22 <elliott> fizzie: TEST
21:54:25 <shachaf> ion: help
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21:57:09 <fizzie> elliott: NEST
21:58:25 <zzo38> fizzie: I think you need not worry about those kind of social consequences in this specific circumstances.
22:01:33 <elliott> ^rainbow TEST
22:01:33 <fungot> TEST
22:01:36 <elliott> fizzie: DO IT
22:06:01 <fizzie> No can do, I am suddenly busy with various important matters.
22:10:40 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:15:59 <oerjan> a sudden urge to hide the bodies better
22:20:28 <zzo38> Can you disguise them?
22:21:00 <oerjan> i mean fizzie's sudden urge. to avoid negative social consequences, you see.
22:26:36 <zzo38> Well, in Dungeons&Dragons game I have idea what to do with the chancellor's dead body, which includes both disguising it and hiding it, and casting a spell on myself to forget it.
22:28:35 <zzo38> Therefore, I think hiding the bodies is not sufficient, live or dead.
22:29:25 <oerjan> OKAY
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22:59:09 <atriq> It's so cold...
22:59:19 <atriq> Why is my room so cold
22:59:53 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:02:23 <olsner> atriq: winter is coming
23:03:01 <atriq> Oh no!
23:03:37 <olsner> also, because your country hasn't invented insulation yet
23:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, do you have the window open
23:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> classic mistake, that one
23:04:18 <olsner> (tip: Alt-F4 usually closes the window)
23:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> unless you're on a mac, then it's cmd-w
23:05:05 <Phantom_Hoover> and if you're on linux it's anyone's guess
23:05:15 <olsner> ctrl-alt-del?
23:05:33 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: ^C ?
23:08:25 <atriq> ^Q?
23:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, that's not even consistent on the command line
23:10:50 <nortti> atriq: ^Q is xoff
23:11:24 <atriq> Who knows?
23:11:25 <atriq> ???
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23:15:23 <zzo38> I sometimes use Ubuntu computer in FreeGeek, so I know at least in Ubuntu, close window is ALT+F4 like in Windows.
23:16:00 <fizzie> ^w closes some windows too.
23:16:43 <nortti> I myself prefer ^ak
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23:34:57 <oerjan> no, temperature, you're _not_ allowed to drop below -10 celsius :(
23:35:34 <pikhq_> I've been waiting for it to drop below 0°C here...
23:35:38 <pikhq_> (this is a weird ass winter)
23:36:32 <fizzie> Foreca is forecasting -21°C for the Sun-Mon night.
23:36:59 <oerjan> i see -15 on tuesday.
23:37:59 <fizzie> Daily highs go -12, -9, -6 -14, -11, -7, -7, -6, -4, -5 in the ten-day forecast, that's not so cold.
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23:38:33 <elliott> its -74 on pluto
23:38:50 <pikhq_> At that point just start doing it in Kelvin.
23:39:00 <pikhq_> 199K.
23:39:05 <Fiora> only -74?
23:39:11 <Fiora> Wikipedia says it's 33-55K
23:39:23 -!- augur has joined.
23:39:24 <oerjan> pluto is having a heat wave?
23:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, depends on the place i suppose
23:40:13 <Bike> pluto doesn't have an atmosphere worth talking about, right?
23:40:22 <oerjan> don't think so
23:40:32 <Bike> so no climate. sucks
23:40:32 <Fiora> "Pluto's atmosphere consists of a thin envelope of nitrogen, methane, and carbon monoxide gases, which are derived from the ices of these substances on its surface.[89] Its surface pressure ranges from 6.5 to 24 μbar."
23:40:56 <Fiora> the pressure is about like 0.15-0.3 pascal
23:41:10 <Fiora> accordnig to like, different measurements >_>;
23:41:15 <Fiora> I'm guessing new horizons will make things a lot more certain
23:41:19 <Bike> well it's not like we've been there
23:41:27 <Fiora> they did it with observations of occultations with stars
23:41:28 <Bike> (by "we" i am referring to our robot slaves)
23:41:42 <Bike> yeah, i know, but that's not as accurate as just flying a barometer out there, is it
23:41:51 <oerjan> maybe our robot slaves will revolt and send us there.
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23:42:01 <Bike> one can only hope
23:42:04 <Fiora> I don't think we're actually putting the spaceship in the atmosphere XD
23:42:16 <Bike> boooooriiiiing
23:42:28 <Bike> i wanna see if arnold's cousin's corpse is actually there, from magic school bus
23:42:38 <oerjan> yeah you need to bore deeply to get to the interesting parts
23:43:09 <oerjan> magic school bus had deaths?
23:43:23 <Bike> that's what we need new horizons to find out
23:44:03 <oerjan> mind you i think i may have seen approx. 1/2 episode of that show.
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23:47:18 <elliott> 23:39:04 <Fiora> only -74?
23:47:21 <Fiora> space probes are so cool, I'll finally be able to actually live through one exploring the outer planets
23:47:21 <elliott> Fiora: i didn't specify units!!
23:47:33 <Fiora> I mean I was alive with Galileo but I was really young
23:47:36 <olsner> -74 degrees hird
23:48:13 <Fiora> and voyager 2 passed neptune the year before I was born
23:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, uh what about cassini
23:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember reading a book about space when i was little and there was a thing about cassini
23:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> when it actually reached saturn i was like "holy shit it's the future!"
23:55:24 <Fiora> oh right!!
23:55:29 <Fiora> wow I totally forgot about that one
23:55:45 * pikhq_ randomly notes that Planck temperature is perhaps the hardest to actually *use* temperature scale.
23:55:58 <Fiora> I remember the pictures it took and everything
23:55:59 <Bike> planck temperature is some absurdly high thing, right
23:56:02 <Fiora> and all the news about Titan
23:56:09 <pikhq_> 0 Planck temp = 0 K. 1 Planck temp ~= 1.4*10^8 YK.
23:56:19 <pikhq_> Bike: Yes. It's in yottakelvin.
23:56:26 <Bike> an oft-used unit right there
23:56:31 <Fiora> the planck temperature is where they hypotheize grand unification right?
23:56:36 <pikhq_> I'd use a larger SI prefix but they don't exist.
23:56:44 <Bike> lol.
23:56:54 <pikhq_> Fiora: Among other things.
23:57:05 <Phantom_Hoover> is it
23:57:12 <zzo38> Combine SI prefixes if it is really necessary (even though you are not supposed to combine them)
23:57:17 <Fiora> gigayottakelvin!
23:57:30 <olsner> bah, it's not even a gigayottakelvin
23:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought planck units were just where the theory totally breaks down
23:57:37 <pikhq_> It's about 0.14 gigayottakelvin.
23:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> not necessarily where some physically-significant thing happens
23:57:50 <zzo38> I have used "decimicron" before, which is short for "decimicrometre"
23:57:52 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yuh. And then people guess what that means.
23:58:21 <pikhq_> With no justification, because why figure shit out when you can speculate. ;)
23:58:23 <elliott> obviously what this proves is that 1.4*10^8 yottas is the biggest number ever
23:58:28 <elliott> ultrafinitism proven by physics
23:58:36 <Fiora> but but but
23:58:38 <Fiora> attoparsecs
23:58:38 <zzo38> And there are also some units that I don't like, such as "tonne", so we can use "megagram" instead, for example.
23:58:48 <Jafet> 10^3 K: weld; 10^6 K: fusion; 10^32: grand unification?
23:58:54 <Jafet> Kilokilogram
23:58:57 <elliott> Fiora: have you ever SEEN an attoparsec
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23:59:12 <Bike> wait, wait, wait, i thought that at least some of the planck units do correspond to physical things, like with energy quantification and all
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23:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover> urk
23:59:27 <pikhq_> Beheheh. The peak wavelength emitted by a black body radiator at Planck temperature is also Planck length.
23:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> look around you maths is off youtube now :(
23:59:38 <Bike> nooooo
23:59:43 <zzo38> "Kilokilogram" can be used too, but "kilo" is already the SI prefix for "gram" (even though "kilogram" is considered the base unit)
23:59:48 <Fiora> I think um... 1TeV is roughly equal to 11 petakelvins
23:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oi elliott use your dvds and find out what the biggest number is
00:00:01 <Fiora> so like the LHC gets like 11 petakelvins
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00:00:21 <Fiora> elliott: I'm roughly 50.5 attoparsecs tall! seeeee
00:00:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5054356894457127152
00:00:31 <Bike> shorty
00:00:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the barn-megaparsec is my favourite stupid unit
00:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> because it's actually a completely reasonable unit
00:00:55 <zzo38> "Tonne" is confusing with "ton" so I think "tonne" should not be used.
00:00:58 <elliott> Fiora: i think this means you may actually be shorter than me
00:01:00 <elliott> which is a first
00:01:33 <pikhq_> Bike: Well, the derived Planck units are often quite reasonable.
00:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> heh, the hubble-barn is also a reasonable unit
00:01:50 <pikhq_> Bike: For instance, 1 Planck impedence is about 30 ohms.
00:02:15 <Bike> huh.
00:02:21 <Fiora> elliott: wait how tall are you
00:02:22 <Phantom_Hoover> the planck pressure, though...
00:02:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, like 1.7m iirc
00:02:40 <Phantom_Hoover> less, even
00:02:45 <pikhq_> 4.63309e113 Pa? Jesus.
00:02:46 <oerjan> `frink 1 attoparsec -> m
00:02:51 <elliott> i am like 5 feet 1 inch or something
00:02:57 <elliott> maybe i grew since the last time i figured that out
00:03:03 <Fiora> oh, I'm 5'1" too
00:03:13 <HackEgo> 0.030856775813057289536
00:03:28 <zzo38> Another thing you can do other than use metres and so on, is if the other units are wrong size, use other base units. So, such things as lightyear and so on, etc.
00:03:36 <Phantom_Hoover> planck momentum is reasonable
00:03:40 <pikhq_> 0.4 petayottayottayottayottapascal?
00:03:57 <pikhq_> 0.4 PYYYYPa is awesome.
00:03:58 <Fiora> an attoparsec is like 3cm
00:04:11 <Fiora> attoparsec per microfortnight is the best though :3
00:04:23 <pikhq_> Bit over an inch? Huh.
00:04:25 <Bike> about a foot per second or something, right?
00:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the dwarf fortress units are quite silly
00:05:26 <Phantom_Hoover> they're fahrenheit + 9000 or something
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00:05:46 <Fiora> it's like a cm/s I think
00:06:01 <olsner> iirc, a lightnanosecond is about a foot
00:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, it would be
00:08:16 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:11:48 <pikhq_> Huh. Planck charge is also fairly reasonable. About 12 times larger than the elementary charge.
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00:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, you mean the coulomb?
00:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> the coulomb is not a reasonable unit
00:13:24 <Bike> the charge of an electron
00:13:30 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: No, the elementary charge is the magnitude of the charge of an electron.
00:13:32 <Bike> is called the "elementary charge"
00:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> that's not even close to a reasonable unit!
00:13:50 <pikhq_> It's reasonable in many contexts.
00:14:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought we meant 'macroscopic'
00:14:34 <pikhq_> Okay, fine.
00:15:08 <pikhq_> It's still more reasonable than most of the Planck units... I mean, shit, there's an SI prefix for that one. :P
00:15:46 <pikhq_> It's a mere 1.8 aC.
00:16:57 <Fiora> planck impedance: 29.979 ohms?
00:17:26 <pikhq_> Yup.
00:17:31 <Fiora> there's a planck momentum too, it's not big
00:17:38 <Fiora> I wonder what the planck magnetic field is
00:18:17 <pikhq_> Magnetic flux density?
00:18:22 <Fiora> 2.15 * 10^53 teslas says a quick google? ohgod
00:18:32 <Fiora> "215000 yottayottateslas"
00:18:46 <fizzie> HTK's timestamps are in units of 0.1 microseconds. I've always presumed it's because it's accurate enough for each sample of 16 kHz audio to have an integer time in those units (unlike microseconds; one sample is 62.5 us), but nanoseconds would've resulted in too large numbers.
00:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i think that's above the point where maxwell's equations go to hell and the vacuum becomes polarised
00:19:08 <Fiora> I think that happens at like, about 10^40 times less? XD
00:19:12 <elliott> polarised, n. really cold (it's cold at the north and south pole)
00:19:20 <Bike> "megasecond" is my favorite usual unit, i think
00:19:20 <zzo38> Or just make up new prefixes.
00:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> not any more *badum-tsh*
00:19:47 <zzo38> Someone once told me, they read they wanted to add another prefix "heva"
00:19:59 <olsner> fizzie: might also be that they stole their time unit from windows
00:20:01 <Bike> wasn't there a petition to make "hella" official, or something
00:20:06 * oerjan swats elliott for confusing nouns and adjectives -----###
00:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i liked the proposal for zeppo-, harpo- and groucho-
00:20:27 <Fiora> pfffffff
00:20:32 <Fiora> link?
00:20:54 <olsner> n., n. separator between dictionary entries and their definitions
00:21:09 <zzo38> I don't want "zeppo" because it is similar to "zepto"
00:21:10 <oerjan> well if we have hella, then clearly the opposite prefix should be heava
00:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> it may have been in either the feedback or letters sections of the new scientist
00:21:48 <zzo38> I think they wanted "heva" one above "yotta" although I am unsure.
00:21:51 <fizzie> olsner: I suppose it's possible, though I don't think it's a very Windows-oriented piece of software.
00:22:06 <oerjan> itsymeter. yw.
00:22:14 <fizzie> I've seen at least one "serious-looking" SI extension proposal.
00:22:34 <Fiora> they have to add bitsy too
00:22:38 <Fiora> so then you can have an itsybitsymeter
00:22:38 <olsner> itsy-, bitsy-, teeny- and weeny-
00:22:44 <pikhq_> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11984 *grin*
00:22:47 <elliott> oerjan: fuck you i'm a disctionary
00:22:49 <Fiora> an itsybitsy spider would be very small indeed
00:22:50 <oerjan> polkadotmeter
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00:23:02 <zzo38> But I am OK if you want to add other prefixes, whether it is "groucho" or whatever else
00:23:17 <oerjan> elliott: is that like a book using discworld spelling conventions?
00:23:44 <elliott> oerjan: who publsiehs the definitions around here
00:24:08 <zzo38> There is also "myria" not used much anymore, although it is a metric prefix for a myriad (ten thousand).
00:25:30 <pikhq_> Be handy for CJK folk.
00:25:50 <pikhq_> (CJK all group numbers in myriads.)
00:26:47 <zzo38> Yes, I know that too.
00:27:02 <Bike> oh, that's probably where knuth got the idea, isn't it.
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00:27:36 <zzo38> At least I think so.
00:28:12 <fizzie> "Angstro" has been suggested for 10^(-10). Perhaps to get rid of ångström as a separate unit. (It even has the "m" there.)
00:28:59 <zzo38> I think it would be OK.
00:29:25 <Fiora> angstrometer
00:29:56 <fizzie> (Don't know whether the suggestion kept the diacritics. At least å would be free for abbreviations.)
00:30:13 <fizzie> 1 åm.
00:30:27 <zzo38> Yes, and then "angstrom" becomes short for "angstrometer". But yes you should use the lowercase a with ring above for this prefix (uppercase A with ring above is angstrom)
00:31:14 <zzo38> Make a list of these things.
00:31:36 <fizzie> Then you also have 1 åÅ = 10 zm.
00:31:58 <pikhq_> :D
00:32:00 <zzo38> I suppose it does allow you to do that although I do not think it would be a good idea.
00:32:23 <fizzie> One ångströångström does sound a bit silly.
00:32:42 * pikhq_ approves of the ångströångström
00:33:35 <pikhq_> Though maybe that should be "ö¨å" (can't be bothered to find the combining char)
00:34:19 <elliott> [[
00:34:20 <elliott> > The excuse for not fixing this does not make sense.
00:34:21 <elliott> What doesn't make sense is you.
00:34:21 <elliott> ]]
00:34:21 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:52: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:34:23 <elliott> -- ulrich drepper
00:34:33 <oerjan> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_(m%C3%A5tt)
00:34:34 <olsner> you mean an å with a diaeresis?
00:35:04 <nooodl__> ä you guys are lazy
00:35:09 <pikhq_> olsner: Yes.
00:35:11 <olsner> oh, 1 fat is 480 osmunds ... pretty thin fella this Osmund
00:35:24 <elliott> ŕ
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00:35:33 <nooodl__> ĥ
00:35:37 <zzo38> What is the equation for the Railsback curve?
00:35:56 <pikhq_> olsner: Needs both, clearly, as otherwise that'd be a diphthong.
00:36:32 <olsner> not really, since öå doesn't become a diphtong in the first place
00:37:24 <pikhq_> olsner: Bah humbug.
00:37:26 <oerjan> olsner: unless you're very drunk
00:37:47 <pikhq_> I will diäresisize all vowels that are adjacent!
00:38:21 <oerjan> föå en öål til föår föan
00:39:45 <oerjan> olsner: or from skåne, probably
00:39:52 <pikhq_> Which is why it's "oërjan" not "Ørjan". >:D
00:40:10 <elliott> øærjan
00:40:47 <oerjan> oërhöert
00:41:05 <nooodl__> does this: "å̈" look fine to you guys
00:41:16 <oerjan> nooodl__: excellent plain a, there
00:41:18 <Bike> no, it looks like you have some kind of growth on your head there
00:41:31 <nooodl__> it's supposed to be... an a with an ö above it, essentially
00:41:46 <nooodl__> a + ° + ¨
00:42:09 <Bike> ǟ
00:42:36 <pikhq_> nooodl__: That composed poorly.
00:42:39 <pikhq_> I blame my renderer.
00:44:13 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&safe=off&tbo=d&site=&source=hp&q=sk%C3%B6%C3%A5ne&oq=sk%C3%B6%C3%A5ne&gs_l=hp.3...122718.172765.0.173062. gives a bit of hits
00:49:13 <elliott> ion: I think he meant rwbarton?
00:50:17 <ion> <shachaf> Unless someone like ion wants to do it.
00:50:28 <ion> Dunno whom he meant, but i was asking about it in response to that. :-)
00:50:46 <olsner> "someone like ion" might refer to you
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01:40:08 <n2liquid> Do you guys sometimes discuss about practical (albeit experimental) programming languages?
01:40:25 <shachaf> Like Norwegian?
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01:41:19 <olsner> there's some Finnish too, but opinions differ as to wether that counts as a language at all
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01:41:39 <oerjan> _programming_, people
01:41:53 <olsner> ... shachaf started it
01:41:59 <n2liquid> lol
01:42:06 <oerjan> if haskell counts, then we do.
01:42:25 <n2liquid> Ok, Haskell; what about new programming languages?
01:42:26 <oerjan> also some have had less esoteric projects, i recall Gregor's plof
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01:42:32 <pikhq_> n2liquid: Well, it's not esoteric programming, so *yes*.
01:42:44 <n2liquid> Or languages that extrapolate concepts like object orientation
01:43:39 <n2liquid> Especially not stuff that's too focused on mathematical concepts
01:43:48 <oerjan> @quote oerjan
01:43:49 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
01:44:06 <oerjan> COUNT ME OUT
01:44:39 <n2liquid> oerjan, is plof on the esolang wiki?
01:44:56 <oerjan> no, because it's not esoteric
01:45:02 <Sgeo> Glass is OO
01:45:11 <oerjan> well, _maybe_ it's linked from Gregor's user page.
01:45:27 <pikhq_> n2liquid: Plof is more a research language than anything else.
01:45:28 <Sgeo> Oh, practicaal?
01:45:31 <oerjan> glass is OO, esoteric, and also gregor's :)
01:45:34 <pikhq_> Yes.
01:46:56 <oerjan> http://plof.codu.org/wiki/
01:47:09 <n2liquid> Hey, thanks :D
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01:52:11 <zzo38> We do discuss experiemental programming and stuff too sometimes
01:53:11 <n2liquid> I've been munching some concepts for a programming language for some time now
01:53:28 <zzo38> Although I suppose we also sometimes discuss completely different things too
01:53:28 <oerjan> i recall edwardk had a language project when he came here, although i think he's gravitated towards "everything fits better into haskell"? also everything edwardk is by definition the opposite of "not stuff that's too focused on mathematical concepts".
01:54:17 <oerjan> in the same way, some haskellers seem to go on to agda.
01:54:22 <n2liquid> It's nothing bat-crazy like what's often explored in academic research projects or esoteric languages
01:54:26 <n2liquid> oerjan, agda?
01:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> dependently-typed experimental language
01:55:38 <n2liquid> I see
01:55:41 <Sgeo> Has there been any work on Plof recently?
01:55:54 <Sgeo> Mostly, I just want to read awesome documentation, even if the language isn't well implemented
01:56:05 <Gregor> Why hallo thar, people talking about me >_>
01:56:17 <oerjan> well the fythe VM for it was worked on in february, at least, i see
01:56:33 <Gregor> Fythe was last poked at a few months ago.
01:56:45 <Gregor> It's possible that I'm currently contractually obligated not to touch it, so I'm not :)
01:56:56 <oerjan> ouch
01:57:22 <Gregor> Just for two more weeks now *shrugs*
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01:57:50 <Gregor> The Fythe engine works great, and I have some neato ideas for making it work better, I just haven't bothered to finish porting Plof to it yet.
01:58:13 <Gregor> What with my being distracted by silly irrelevant stuff like pursuing a PhD and making money and watching ponies.
01:58:14 <oerjan> any relation to your ioccc entry? :P
01:58:20 <Gregor> OH YOU
01:58:38 <oerjan> sorry, *winning entry
02:00:03 <Gregor> ^^
02:00:33 <Gregor> Lest it's not obvious, my IOCCC entry has no practical application whatsoever. Anything to make it not suck would also make it unportable, defeating the whole purpose.
02:01:33 <oerjan> obviously.
02:02:30 <Bike> what entry is this?
02:02:50 <n2liquid> What do you guys think about LLVM?
02:02:53 <n2liquid> Just curious
02:03:18 <Gregor> Bike: http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2011_richards
02:05:14 <Bike> well that's... impressive
02:06:20 <zzo38> I happen to like LLVM, although I also think some things missing, such as supporting bytes other than 8-bits, and supporting ARM2
02:07:50 <n2liquid> I know I wouldn't be into programming language design without LLVM
02:07:54 <n2liquid> That's a given
02:08:17 <Bike> is the point of all this preprocessor stuff to make the source resemble dc code
02:11:29 <ion> gregor: Is there a description of how the JIT is done somewhere?
02:14:04 <Gregor> ion: The description was in your heart all along.
02:18:39 <Fiora> omg
02:18:51 <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing
02:19:08 <Fiora> it manages to hide the opcodes and stuff too, wow
02:25:33 <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:29:35 <oerjan> `addquote <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:29:38 <HackEgo> 859) <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:29:51 <elliott> oerjan: TWO SPACES!!!!!
02:30:12 <shachaf> elliott: Two spaces are the devil. :-(
02:30:18 <oerjan> elliott: i checked with `quote, and the first example that came up had only one
02:30:32 <elliott> oerjan: two spaces between the first two messages, I mean
02:30:40 <shachaf> kmc: The GHC inliner is annoying me. :-(
02:30:41 <shachaf> Can you fix it?
02:30:53 <oerjan> `quote
02:30:55 <shachaf> I should probably read that one paper, _Secrets of the GHC Inliner_.
02:30:56 <HackEgo> 683) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
02:30:59 <oerjan> `quote
02:31:01 <shachaf> `quote
02:31:03 <HackEgo> 341) <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! <CakeProphet> I have the weirdest boner right now.
02:31:27 <HackEgo> 43) <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
02:31:33 <oerjan> OKAY THEN
02:31:40 <oerjan> `delquote 859
02:31:44 <shachaf> oerjan: Don't give in!
02:31:45 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:31:52 <oerjan> `addquote <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:31:55 <HackEgo> 859) <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:32:15 <ion> ½ fixed
02:32:16 <Bike> wait, why did you do that
02:32:40 <oerjan> ion: the rules for [...] are even more complicated.
02:32:50 <ion> You should use “ ” and see if anyone notices.
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02:34:04 <oerjan> Bike: elliott is a space nazi
02:34:14 <oerjan> we don't want to annoy him
02:34:26 <elliott> Bike: the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:34:27 <ion> Like in Iron Sky?
02:35:03 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott>bike:the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:35:06 <HackEgo> 860) <elliott>bike:the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:35:09 <Bike> i was just about to do that
02:35:19 <Bike> i'm so uncreative.
02:35:25 <shachaf> So am I. :-(
02:35:30 <elliott> `delquote 860
02:35:34 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <elliott>bike:the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:35:36 <elliott> broken
02:35:37 <oerjan> what is an appropriate THAT'S THE JOKE link?
02:35:49 <Bike> the simpson's clip?
02:36:29 <oerjan> i guess that is the top google hit
02:36:36 <kmc> shachaf: inliner? i hardly know her!
02:36:37 <Bike> i'm going to pretend that apostrophe was supposed to be there. "The Simpson" is a nickname of a bigfoot-like internet legend, known for posting photographs of firearms with jokes engraved on them.
02:36:49 <oerjan> ion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
02:37:15 <shachaf> kmc: good point thx
02:37:34 <elliott> fizzie: ok
02:37:37 <elliott> fizzie: what was that connect command again
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02:47:18 <elliott> oerjan
02:47:20 <elliott> go wake fizzie up
02:47:54 <oerjan> fizzie: WAKE UP
02:49:03 <c00kiemon5ter> oh, it's december o.O late happy new month people o/
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02:49:34 <elliott> oerjan: go to finland
02:50:36 <zzo38> Yes, is December now, and is Advent tomorrow, I think.
02:50:44 <shachaf> Finland isn't real, elliott.
02:50:52 <shachaf> Do you actually know anyone who's ever been there?
02:51:01 <pikhq_> Finland is drunk Japan. No more, no less.
02:51:16 <shachaf> Drunk Japan + lakka?
02:51:25 <pikhq_> Well, when you're drunk... :P
02:51:28 <elliott> `? finland
02:51:31 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:51:39 <zzo38> I added some commands in my Csound plugin, including "meanfilter", "multiguide", "pairecho", etc
02:52:06 <oerjan> it would appear the bus has got lost
02:52:31 <zzo38> The "pairecho" command makes two delay lines which are allowed to interfere with each other and the amount of interference and output levels can be adjusted at x-rate.
02:52:39 * oerjan tried to read pairecho as something latino
02:52:54 <zzo38> Why? Do you speak Latino?
02:53:05 <Bike> ladino's cool.
02:53:17 <oerjan> ...it looks vaguely spanish.
02:53:31 <Sgeo> monqy, elliott Fiora
02:53:33 <pikhq_> Nah, oerjan only speaks onital.
02:53:34 <zzo38> It is meant to be English.
02:54:28 <oerjan> pikhq_: ¡orter edav
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03:00:39 <elliott> Alright, I got insecure IPv6 working.
03:00:44 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest55032.
03:00:44 <Guest55032> TODO: Get secure IPv6 working.
03:00:56 <shachaf> hi Guest55032
03:00:57 <Guest55032> Um.
03:01:04 <shachaf> imo Guest55034 > Guest55032
03:01:19 -!- Guest55032 has changed nick to elliott.
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03:14:26 <ion> 68060 > 55032
03:14:48 <shachaf> > compare 68060 55032
03:14:50 <lambdabot> GT
03:15:39 <ion> λ> compare Guest55034 Guest55032
03:15:41 <ion> LT
03:15:43 <ion> ¡!!
03:16:26 <shachaf> What!
03:17:01 <Bike> how did that happen?
03:17:08 <pikhq_> let compare = flip compare
03:17:14 <pikhq_> :P
03:17:29 <Bike> insidious
03:21:52 <ion> data Guest = Guest55034 | Guest55032 deriving (Eq, Ord)
03:23:00 <shachaf> data Comparing = Eq | Ord deriving (Eq, Ord)
03:23:45 <Bike> note to self do not ask questions
03:24:39 <oerjan> i'd be more impressed if he made it work in lambdabot
03:28:02 <shachaf> oerjan: You should set this channel -n
03:28:09 <shachaf> So elliott can spam it without joining.
03:28:48 <oerjan> i already did once
03:29:18 <shachaf> oerjan: Also, you should kick me for spamming.
03:29:19 <zzo38> If there is Haskell library for defining moves of chess pieces, what should it be called?
03:29:34 <shachaf> zzo38: Hlfdmocp
03:30:16 <elliott> oerjan: twice
03:30:30 <zzo38> I mean the module name, not the package name, though.
03:32:37 <oerjan> Control.Games.Board.Chess.Moves.Class
03:32:48 <oerjan> hth
03:36:04 <Fiora> oh gosh I got quoted
03:36:21 <Bike> you've really hit the bigtime now.
03:36:23 <shachaf> @remember Fiora oh gosh I got quoted
03:36:23 <lambdabot> Nice!
03:36:36 <shachaf> No, lambdabot is for high-quality quotes.
03:36:38 <shachaf> @forget Fiora oh gosh I got quoted
03:36:38 <lambdabot> Done.
03:36:51 <oerjan> @quote fuck
03:36:51 <lambdabot> sorear says: [emacs haskell mode] not fucked up, just well documented
03:37:10 <oerjan> @quote duh
03:37:10 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
03:37:18 <elliott> so Fiora has gone through two phases of initiation
03:37:30 <elliott> excessive welcoming and being quoted
03:37:34 <Bike> is she going to have to write an eodermdrome interpreter too
03:37:38 <elliott> next up is the goat sacrifice
03:37:49 <oerjan> Bike: no, no one actually managed that yet
03:37:51 <elliott> Bike: yes but that usually comes later
03:37:51 <Bike> oh i'm so up for that
03:38:01 <elliott> how has yours been
03:38:04 <Bike> oerjan: isn't that the joke
03:38:12 <elliott> oerjan: oklofok did
03:38:24 <oerjan> she has to spend a few weeks agonizing over how to do it before she fails, though
03:38:28 <elliott> you mean no *person*
03:38:36 <Bike> i got bored/frustrated, turns out np-complete problems are annoying, especially when you look at graph rewriting and then look at thue and think "why"
03:38:51 <oerjan> elliott: he just chose a different failure mode, known as "losing the source"
03:39:06 <Fiora> what's an eodermdrome interpreter @_@
03:39:23 <Bike> Fiora: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome it's an esoteric language, or "esolang" for short
03:39:37 <oerjan> anyone whose eyes look like @ isn't sane enough to be told!
03:41:08 <Fiora> yes I know what an eslolang is
03:41:20 <Fiora> oh no. it's /that/ one
03:41:21 <Fiora> the graph
03:41:27 <Bike> the one i was failing at, yes
03:41:42 <shachaf> Fiora: "what is an eslolang"
03:41:44 <shachaf> help
03:41:53 <Bike> i did write a mascarphone interpreter when arc_koen was talking about it the other day, though. completely untested, as the gods demanded
03:42:16 <Fiora> sorry I'm like randomly being pulled away and things because I'm at my parents' house this weekend
03:42:27 <oerjan> does this mascarphone interpreter have good call rates?
03:42:38 <Bike> nope
03:42:58 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:43:13 <Bike> what does that mean? if it's some subquestion of "is it efficient" the answer is still no
03:43:37 * oerjan notes strong winds above Bike's head
03:44:06 <Bike> i have congenital joke-blindness, you bigot!
03:44:49 <oerjan> oh. i'm afraid you'll probably not survive in this channel, then.
03:44:56 <Fiora> oh. subgraph isomorphism is the hard one
03:44:59 <Bike> :(
03:45:01 <Fiora> and graph isomorphism is the almost-hard one
03:45:18 <Bike> i actually got the subgraph isomorphism bit, but the replacement semantics are not what i assumed
03:47:00 <oerjan> there's the "some vertices need to have no extra edges" bit
03:47:47 <Bike> yeah, basically i didn't pay enough attention to the description and wrote it wrong, so, frustration when i found out
04:04:06 <shachaf> ion: So do you do the thing where you capitalize your sentences, but not the word "I"?
04:04:18 <ion> heh
04:04:39 <shachaf> ?
04:04:51 <olsner> if a sentence starts with I, do you capitalize the following word instead?
04:04:58 <shachaf> I was wondering whether you do that on purpose or what it is that you do.
04:05:14 <shachaf> olsner: I meant treating "I" as any other word, and capitalizing it like any other word.
04:05:19 <shachaf> Rather than giving it special treatment.
04:05:31 <ion> I’d like to learn the reasoning for the special treatment of “I”. You don’t capitalize “You”.
04:05:52 <Bike> probably something to do with the venerable medieval lack of punctuation or spaces
04:05:52 <shachaf> U don't?
04:05:55 <ion> or “a”
04:06:13 <shachaf> ion: So it is a thing you do on purpose?
04:06:32 <zzo38> Bike: Yes I am guessing something like that
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04:07:42 <ion> Well, i capitalize “I” in anything more formal, but i find the exception strange.
04:08:03 <shachaf> i AGREE
04:08:22 <n2liquid> I agree, but I just got over it
04:08:47 <n2liquid> There are enough oddities in my own language to be questioning english
04:08:53 <olsner> Write All Sentences in Some Kind of Title Case
04:09:04 <Fiora> Kanaya?
04:09:08 <Gregor> I read an article that suggested that the only reason “I” is capitalized is because printers thought “i” looked ugly.
04:09:18 <pikhq_> Bah, we should just capitalize all Nouns, as is the historical Practice.
04:09:24 <elliott> guys
04:09:24 <shachaf> Nowadays printers have no free will.
04:09:32 <elliott> I have a 1-2 ms ping to the london freenode server from my server
04:09:34 <elliott> how wild is that
04:09:44 <oerjan> shachaf: that's what they _want_ you to think
04:09:45 <Gregor> elliott: Not particularly wild?
04:09:51 <shachaf> elliott: the wildest
04:09:52 <elliott> Gregor: fuck you
04:09:53 <ion> The same guys who thought you should move a subset of punctuation following a right quotation mark inside the quotation? Screw those guys.
04:10:01 <pikhq_> Free Will is for Plebians, Peasants, and Fools. We educated Souls know that there is no such Thing as free Will.
04:10:03 <shachaf> I'm in San Francisco!
04:10:05 <shachaf> How wild is that?
04:10:10 <pikhq_> There is only the Dictates of Physics.
04:10:17 <Gregor> shachaf: I am too.
04:10:21 <elliott> look at this shit
04:10:22 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net ( icmp_req=1 ttl=56 time=1.06 ms
04:10:26 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net ( icmp_req=3 ttl=56 time=1.16 ms
04:10:29 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net ( icmp_req=4 ttl=56 time=1.15 ms
04:10:31 <shachaf> Gregor: I looked for a taquería and didn't find one.
04:10:32 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net ( icmp_req=5 ttl=56 time=1.15 ms
04:10:34 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net ( icmp_req=6 ttl=56 time=1.13 ms
04:10:38 <elliott> don't tell me that's not wild
04:10:47 <Gregor> shachaf: Where the heck are you in SFO that you can't find a taqueria???
04:10:49 <ion> elliott: You seem to have some packet loss.
04:10:50 <Gregor> They're EVERYWHERE.
04:10:50 <pikhq_> elliott: ... How many lightmilliseconds are you from London?
04:10:59 <shachaf> Gregor: I didn't look very far, admittedly.
04:11:02 <elliott> pikhq_: me, a while
04:11:04 <elliott> my server, 0
04:11:06 <elliott> because it is in london
04:11:11 <pikhq_> Ah. Okay.
04:11:19 <elliott> ion: you're a packet loss
04:11:30 <pikhq_> Though "a while" is not a quantity of lightmilliseconds, vague or otherwise. ;)
04:11:41 <elliott> you're a while
04:11:53 <oerjan> `frink 1 while -> lightmillisecond
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04:12:01 <kmc> shachaf: are you in san francisco san francisco or are you in epa
04:12:04 <HackEgo> Syntax error: <String>, line 1, near column 2 \ 1 while -> lightmillisecond \ ^ \ 1 error(s) occurred during parsing.
04:12:09 <kmc> epa gangnam style
04:12:17 <shachaf> kmc: At the moment San Francisco San Francisco.
04:12:18 <oerjan> pikhq_: shocking
04:12:39 <kmc> hm
04:12:41 <shachaf> kmc: San Francisco is the best San Francisco, don't you think?
04:12:41 <kmc> where abouts
04:12:59 <elliott> pikhq_: anyway you should help me get ipv6 working
04:13:00 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_(disambiguation)
04:13:03 <elliott> i can connect to freenode via ipv6
04:13:04 <elliott> i can connect to freenode via ssl
04:13:06 <elliott> but not both at the same time
04:13:47 <oerjan> DUN DUN DUN
04:14:21 <shachaf> Gregor: Are you doing a PhD thing in San Francisco?
04:14:39 <Gregor> shachaf: I'm doing an internship thing in San Francisco.
04:14:59 <shachaf> Oh.
04:15:03 <shachaf> Where?
04:15:08 <Gregor> Oracle
04:15:30 <pikhq_> Is it true that a soulectomy is a job requirement?
04:15:43 <kmc> oh no
04:15:48 <kmc> most of my coworkers used to work at oracle :(
04:15:54 <kmc> they must be zombies now
04:16:08 <pikhq_> :(
04:16:22 <shachaf> kmc: Are they using Python?
04:16:26 <shachaf> That's a sure sign of being a zombie.
04:16:31 <kmc> i don't understand
04:16:32 <kmc> but, yes
04:16:46 <shachaf> Do you have lots of coworkers now?
04:16:51 <kmc> only six
04:17:01 <shachaf> Six up from four?
04:17:11 <kmc> of whom five used to work at oracle
04:17:18 <kmc> shachaf: i suppose
04:17:21 <olsner> six down from however many it was before the zombies started munching brains
04:17:33 <kmc> there are four founders; i am employee #1 and employee #2 started two days after me
04:18:13 <shachaf> Public Employee #1
04:18:28 <kmc> that's right
04:21:25 <shachaf> kmc: My sister wants to move to Cambridge.
04:21:30 <shachaf> Unfortunately it's the wrong one.
04:21:59 <shachaf> How do I persuade her that Mid-Cambridge, MA is the best city?
04:25:37 <kmc> heh
04:25:39 <kmc> shrug
04:25:41 <kmc> it's not the best city
04:25:44 <kmc> but pretty good
04:26:07 <kmc> why is your sister moving to the other cambridge?
04:26:21 <shachaf> I think she wants to go to university there.
04:26:31 <kmc> cool
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05:00:18 <zzo38> Once I read something by someone who capitalized every word
05:00:52 <monqy> the !!!batch specification? I guess that's not every word
05:00:54 <monqy> a book title?
05:01:12 <zzo38> No, I mean many sentences.
05:01:18 <n2liquid_> PROBABLY MY BLOG
05:01:35 <zzo38> Not only that but the lines were also numbered even though the line numbers are not related to text items.
05:04:54 <shachaf> monqy: have you learned lenses yet
05:05:00 <monqy> no
05:05:02 <shachaf> monqy: there's a new thing on the block to learn
05:05:06 <shachaf> monqy: co-lenses
05:05:12 <monqy> co-lenses
05:05:16 <zzo38> What do co-lenses do?
05:05:26 <shachaf> zzo38: The dual of what lenses do.
05:07:18 <zzo38> It still doesn't help. Can you be more specific what its type and so on is? Does it make a category like lenses do?
05:08:58 <shachaf> Lenses aren't really a category, are they?
05:09:11 <shachaf> Lens s t a b = (s -> a, (s,b) -> t)
05:09:39 <shachaf> Colens s t a b = (b -> t, s -> Either t a)
05:09:56 <shachaf> Well, OK, a category.
05:10:01 <shachaf> But not a Category. :-(
05:10:13 <monqy> : (
05:11:47 <shachaf> monqy: you need a nose
05:11:49 <shachaf> here:
05:11:49 <zzo38> If you have the one with only two parameters instead of four, then there is the lens category (including the Category instance).
05:11:54 <shachaf>
05:12:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes.
05:12:25 <monqy> shachaf: where is colens
05:12:36 <shachaf> ?
05:12:43 <elliott> monqy: it's projection
05:12:45 <shachaf> It's called Projection in lens.
05:12:49 <monqy> ok :⿐)
05:12:58 <shachaf> monqy: much better
05:13:11 <pikhq_> Nice.
05:13:22 <pikhq_> 目鼻口
05:13:29 <shachaf> :⿐)
05:13:36 * pikhq_ wins
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05:14:56 <shachaf> @tell elliott You know what you should do?
05:14:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
05:15:42 <pikhq_> へのへのもへじ?
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05:20:19 <elliott> Well, I have SSL + IPv6 working.
05:20:20 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
05:20:32 <elliott> But it's broken SSL certificate verification. :(
05:20:53 <elliott> Seems to be a result of this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/irssi/+bug/573256
05:21:05 <shachaf> elliott: If you wrote a lazy syntax highlighter for Haskell.
05:21:12 <elliott> I think I could work around it just by adding all the freenode servers I want to connect to to the irssi network rather than the round-robin?
05:21:24 <elliott> shachaf: what should I do
05:21:44 <shachaf> elliott: ?
05:21:51 <elliott> you sent me a lambdabot message
05:21:56 <shachaf> 21:21 <shachaf> elliott: If you wrote a lazy syntax highlighter for Haskell.
05:22:09 <shachaf> Hmm, I might've changed my tense-thing in the middle there.
05:22:26 <elliott> i don't want to do that
05:22:48 <shachaf> elliott: but http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/144biy/pretty_output_in_ghci_howto_in_comments/ :'(
05:23:58 <Sgeo> Edit 2: You will need to either :seti -XNoMonomorphismRestriction or give myPrint an explicit type annotation. I happened to have the former already.
05:24:17 <Sgeo> Shouldn't rewriting myPrint to not be pointfree work?
05:24:21 <shachaf> Sgeo: I don't care about that.
05:24:27 <shachaf> elliott: Someone bountied my stackoverflow answer!
05:24:32 <shachaf> How do I get my points?
05:24:52 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe they bountied one of the other answers.
05:25:26 <Sgeo> Or actually, nothing's wrong with a type annotation, right?
05:25:29 <elliott> the points come automatically
05:25:50 <shachaf> But the asker person didn't pick best answer!
05:25:53 <shachaf> This is complicated.
05:26:05 <elliott> then it's assigned automatically
05:26:22 <elliott> shachaf: you should upvote http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9050725/call-cc-implementation/9050907#9050907 so my top-voted answer isn't to the question "How do you identify monadic design patterns?"
05:26:54 <shachaf> Hmm, you could get people to downvote that one instead.
05:26:57 <elliott> hmm i don't even like how the latter answer words it at the start
05:26:59 <shachaf> That answer is long.
05:27:02 <elliott> shachaf: yeah but then i would lose internet points
05:27:34 <shachaf> elliott: but how did you get a billion internet points without every getting more than 50 votes on an answer
05:27:45 <elliott> by writing 343 answers
05:28:05 <shachaf> help
05:28:23 <elliott> writing one great answer that immediately gets a huge number of votes doesn't even help that much anyway due to the 200 rep cap
05:28:32 <elliott> (per day)
05:29:04 <shachaf> Why is there a cap?
05:29:05 <elliott> fizzie: are you there i need help with this certificate thing!!
05:29:10 <elliott> shachaf: long story
05:29:33 <elliott> feel free to peruse the long and tedious history of posts at http://meta.stackoverflow.com/ if you want an answer
05:29:57 <shachaf> nothx
05:40:16 <elliott> ion: are you the ion in http://bash.org/?152037 by the way
05:40:20 <elliott> important questions
05:40:40 <shachaf> elliott: Nope.
05:40:43 <shachaf> I've asked before.
05:40:57 <pikhq_> Nicknames should be unique!
05:46:29 <Sgeo> I should go read the Facebook TOS
05:48:55 <Sgeo> "For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License). "
05:49:05 <Sgeo> Why do they need a transferable and sub-licensable license?
05:50:09 <Bike> so that they can grant reproduction rights to advertisers and other licensees and stuff
05:51:09 <Sgeo> Honestly, I understand the rest of it, from a technical perspective
05:51:26 <Sgeo> Just in terms of showing photos to peoples friends when their privacy settings are set such, for example
05:51:57 <Sgeo> "You will not post unauthorized commercial communications (such as spam) on Facebook."
05:52:08 <Bike> the main thing to get about facebook is you're the product, not the customer. the customers are ad companies and zynga and companies like that. the TOS is oriented to help the cusotmers.
05:52:36 <Sgeo> How does one get authorization? Many companies have Facebook pages, which I can only assume are used for commercial communications
05:53:28 <Sgeo> "You will not use Facebook to do anything unlawful, misleading, malicious, or discriminatory.
05:53:28 <Sgeo> "
05:53:36 <Sgeo> Uh. I'm not allowed to lie on Facebook?
05:54:15 <Bike> TOSs aren't exactly meant to be followed to the letter, it's just for legal cases and shit
05:54:33 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Yup. So, if you're gay you better be out.
05:55:26 <Bike> I wonder if "don't mislead" would cover being gay and not telling anyone. Since you're only "misleading" them in that they assume you're straight because that's the cultural norm.
05:55:49 <pikhq_> Curses be unto heteronormativity.
05:56:13 * Bike makes traditional hand gesture of agreement
05:57:05 <Sgeo> What about April Fools jokes?
05:57:13 <Sgeo> Such as "just got arrested for drunk driving"
05:57:14 <pikhq_> Not actually misleading.
05:58:00 <Sgeo> Had an April Fools Day where I was just posting statuses saying how I was going to a party, got drunk, had unprotected sex with some girl, and got arrested for drunk driving.
05:58:04 <Sgeo> I don't think anyone believed it
05:58:17 -!- elliott has left.
05:59:20 <Sgeo> "You will not transfer your account (including any Page or application you administer) to anyone without first getting our written permission.
05:59:20 <Sgeo> "
05:59:40 <Sgeo> That... seems annoying for companies. Unless the company is considered the administer the page, and not individual employees?
06:01:01 <Sgeo> "You will not tag users or send email invitations to non-users without their consent. Facebook offers social reporting tools to enable users to provide feedback about tagging.
06:01:02 <Sgeo> "
06:01:58 <Sgeo> ...how does that even work? The tagging mechanisms don't require consent, do they? And sending email invitations to non-users... um, it's an invitation, how do you get consent to send an invitation?
06:02:06 <Sgeo> Although I think that that section is geared more towards developers
06:03:29 <Sgeo> In a section for developers: "You will not directly or indirectly transfer any data you receive from us to (or use such data in connection with) any ad network, ad exchange, data broker, or other advertising related toolset, even if a user consents to that transfer or use."
06:03:50 <Sgeo> That's pretty blatant in terms of what Bike was saying before
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06:04:10 <monqy> hi!!
06:04:25 <Sgeo> hi elliott. helliott.
06:12:10 <Sgeo> CALIFORNIA CIVIL CODE 1542 is useless, isn't it?
06:13:38 <monqy> maybe
06:13:54 <elliott> i hear monqy knows about california
06:13:58 <monqy> no
06:13:59 <monqy> i dont
06:14:33 <Sgeo> From what the Facebook TOS quoted, it's a thing about releases (of liability I guess) not applying in all circumstances. So, all an organization needs to do to get a fully general release is say that the other party waives it
06:14:56 <elliott> are you still talking about facebook's terms of service jesus
06:15:43 <Sgeo> I stopped. And didn't say everything I wanted to say, after you joined, because I figured that that's why you left
06:15:51 <elliott> don't let me stop you
06:16:02 <elliott> if #esoteric said only things i wanted it would be a very different place
06:23:01 <n2liquid_> ... I see this channel is full of respectful people, eh
06:23:08 <n2liquid_> That's rare, really
06:26:21 <shachaf> kmc: I missed the train south and now the next one won't be for another ~1.5 hours.
06:28:05 <elliott> n2liquid_: we must be in different #esoterics
06:28:23 <Bike> my esoteric is better than your esoteric.
06:28:44 <monqy> yes
06:29:46 <n2liquid_> Well, I've only been here for this night, but it does seem peaceful
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06:48:28 <elliott> @tell fizzie does the client certificate thing work as good as sasl now that you're using it? with the cloak-guaranteed-to-take-effect-before-joining-channels stuff
06:48:28 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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09:22:33 <fizzie> @tell elliott I haven't actually tried reconnecting after setting it up. It worked for the first time, I think, but then again I still had the server pass thing set up, and that works too most of the time.
09:22:33 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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12:24:56 <Sgeo> "In fact, the odds of dying from a scorpion sting are one in 300 million. To put this in perspective: Your odds of dying by simply falling over in the shower are one in 65,000. In other words, if you find a scorpion in your shower tomorrow morning, the shower stall itself may still be the greater danger.
12:24:56 <Sgeo> Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19171_5-things-that-arent-nearly-as-dangerous-as-hollywood-thinks.html#ixzz2Dtf6HJYx"
12:25:05 <Sgeo> ...screw you thingy
12:25:23 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to facepalm at the misunderstanding of probability, or should I just accept it as a joke
12:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> uh
12:26:00 <Phantom_Hoover> is that 1 in 300 million the population-wide probability of dying from a scorpion sting
12:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover> in which case: :facepalm:
12:26:24 <Sgeo> It links to http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Death/Death-Rates/Odds/The-odds-a-person-will-die-from-being-stung-by-a-scorpion-in-a-year-are-1-in-299-400-000-US-2006
12:27:36 <Phantom_Hoover> :facepalm:
12:28:21 <Sgeo> It could still be true, I guess, but there's not enough information.
14:21:55 <FreeFull> Sgeo: The reason why the odds of dying from a scorpion sting are so low is that scorpions don't live in most places that people do
14:22:14 <FreeFull> If there is actually a scorpion there, your odds definitely go up
14:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> yes well done FreeFull
14:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> your ability to state what everyone else had already implicitly figured out is truly a boon to the channel
14:31:33 <FreeFull> Well I am Captain Obvious, if that's not obvious
14:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> please stop being captain obvious then
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16:42:03 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> please stop being captain obvious then <-- who should be captain obvious then?
16:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> this isn't a boat!
16:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> we don't need any captains
16:42:45 <fizzie> But then the discussion can go astray.
16:42:46 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:43:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I always thought of Captain Obvious like a superhero, like Captain America or whatever
16:43:13 <Vorpal> now I'm curious as to what was originally intended in that phrase
16:43:27 <kmc> mutiny
16:43:28 <fizzie> Captain Planet.
16:43:34 <Vorpal> yeah like that
16:43:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Lt. Cmdr. Obvious
16:44:05 <fizzie> "By your inanities combined, I am Captain Obvious!"
16:44:29 <c00kiemon5ter> not a boat? I though I was aboard to cookieland
16:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> no
16:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> this is a spaceship to the planet of anticookies
16:45:07 <c00kiemon5ter> 8O
16:45:12 <Vorpal> then we obviously need a Captain Obvious
16:45:21 <kmc> fuck captain planet
16:45:34 <elliott> fizzie: imo you should do some testing & also help me out w/ my new ssl problem
16:45:34 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:45:38 <elliott> (i solved ssl+ipv6)
16:45:39 <elliott> @messages
16:45:39 <lambdabot> fizzie said 7h 23m 7s ago: I haven't actually tried reconnecting after setting it up. It worked for the first time, I think, but then again I still had the server pass thing set up, and that works
16:45:39 <lambdabot> too most of the time.
16:45:54 <kmc> his agenda of taking pollution "down to zero" puts one in mind of the fanatical de-industrialization agenda of the khmer rouge
16:46:39 <elliott> #esoteric, number one channel for sociopolitical analysis of captain planet
16:46:56 <kmc> shachaf: did you make it to a train
16:46:58 <Phantom_Hoover> captain planet throws gi in a labour camp because she looks too intellectual
16:47:06 <kmc> or did you just have to run along the tracks at high speed yelling "CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUCKER"
16:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> (thank you wikipedia for that one)
16:48:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heh what?
16:48:37 <Vorpal> also who is gi?
16:48:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i have never seen captain planet or indeed heard of it beyond 80s pop culture references
16:48:51 <Vorpal> same here
16:49:15 <fizzie> I have watched it, it was broadcast in Finland.
16:49:26 <Phantom_Hoover> yes fizzie but you are old!
16:49:28 <kmc> in college we had a house office named "captain planet"
16:49:39 <kmc> they were charged with taking care of all the living things in the house
16:49:41 <kmc> primarily the hot tub
16:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> how is that living
16:50:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It was also made in 1990-1996, so it's curious it appears in 80s pop culture.
16:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> everything before ~1998 is '80s' to me
16:50:28 <kmc> it's a complex ecosystem
16:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, is it like the it crowd rainforest
16:50:46 <kmc> haven't seen
16:51:39 <fizzie> Helsinki University has a greenhouse warmed by computer exhaust heat on top of the Exactum building.
16:51:51 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct1-zq8gf_0
16:51:59 <kmc> fizzie: nice
16:52:02 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmmfmYID1Yw -- you can see it there.
16:52:26 <fizzie> Or you can see the rack, but the vaguely transparent plastic thing behind it is a greenhouse.
16:53:20 <fizzie> (I saw the link somewhere a while ago.)
16:54:04 <kmc> heh he has a shirt with the pac man kill screen
16:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, the it crowd is good with having actual nerdy references in the background
16:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> there are some eff posters around the place too, and a picture of bob dobbs
16:57:12 <kmc> nice
16:57:22 <kmc> 'This show's like "The Big Bang Theory" except it doesn't suck a Big Franch Dick.'
16:57:27 <kmc> well put, random youtube idiot
16:58:06 <kmc> (franch, as everyone knows, is a condiment composed of a mixture of french and ranch dressing)
16:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> even assuming that's a baffling typo for french, since when were french dicks known for their size?
16:58:51 <kmc> well if they were, the adjective wouldn't be necessary
16:59:04 <kmc> insert coq joke here
16:59:51 <kmc> 'Twenty years ago, I wrote a comedy in which a scientist accidentally kills God and feels really terrible about it. Meanwhile, his former lab assistant goes on to fame and fortune by inventing something called "Franch" -- a salad dressing that's half-French, half-ranch.'
17:00:14 <Vorpal> <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmmfmYID1Yw -- you can see it there. <--- lol what?
17:00:18 <Vorpal> servers out in the open?
17:00:21 <Vorpal> whaaaat
17:00:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not out in the open.
17:00:31 <Vorpal> it looks like it?
17:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> well they do have that cubicle thing
17:00:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a transparent plastic in front of the rack.
17:00:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: But yes, it's a "Experimental Free Air Cooling setup".
17:01:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, looks like he is removing snow directly from the servers but oh well
17:02:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are they talking about btw?
17:02:31 <fizzie> There's a translation in the comments, though it's a bit off.
17:02:35 <Vorpal> "Person 1: this is a really stupid idea" "Person 2: No no, it will just work"
17:02:44 <Vorpal> "Person 1: you idiot"
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17:03:19 <fizzie> It's something like "Here is Mikko doing server administration." "Works well!" "And that's how we do a little clean<cuts off>"
17:03:39 <kmc> reminds me of http://www.afrotechmods.com/
17:04:17 <kmc> in particular http://www.afrotechmods.com/papercooling.htm
17:04:35 <fizzie> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6F8oAMFyZtk/T2iGlBvcFaI/AAAAAAAACVs/GJwiMc8Oo94/s1152/IMG_20120320_145825.jpg shows the other side of the rack.
17:04:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, it might become too cold for the servers as well hm
17:05:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: The blog mentions they haven't had any problems at -30 degrees Celsius or so.
17:05:23 <elliott> <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Mozilla/3.04Gold (WinNT; I) [Netscape]">
17:05:26 <elliott> this page is as old as kmc
17:05:28 <Vorpal> hm
17:05:44 <kmc> haha
17:06:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Most of their computer centers are more traditional, I think this is more of a hobby experiment.
17:06:39 <kmc> http://afrotechmods.com/stupid/memory/memory.htm
17:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://totl.net/Eunuch/
17:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (i forget, is that one of the things everyone's seen but some twat always posts it)
17:09:29 <olsner> why doesn't the heat of the servers melt the snow and create horrible water problems?
17:10:36 <fizzie> olsner: That's exactly what one of the comments asked, I think.
17:10:49 <fizzie> I don't have any sort of answer.
17:11:10 <fizzie> Except that water flows down, I suppose you can sort of guide it elsewhere.
17:11:31 <olsner> I suppose it could be cold enough that nothing in the server is above freezing
17:11:36 <fizzie> The linked blog has a lot of content about the design of the box around it.
17:12:19 <fizzie> The snow is going to melt before summer, anyway, so I'm sure they've considered water.
17:12:30 <fizzie> Also, it sometimes rains.
17:19:22 <kmc> what if a moose tries to eat the servers
17:20:07 <arcatan> the servers are on the roof of the university building, so no mooses there (hopefully)
17:20:59 <kmc> ah
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19:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oi elliott
19:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> have you by any chance done that thing you've claimed you'll do for like a week
19:06:37 <elliott> tonight
19:06:37 <elliott> promise
19:06:39 <elliott> bug me
19:07:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it's already tonight!
19:08:33 <elliott> it's evening!
19:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm you may have a point there
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19:14:47 <ion> elliott: I’m not.
19:15:02 <ion> elliott: It’s a fake ion.
19:17:31 -!- ifnspifn has quit (Quit: ifnspifn).
19:17:45 <elliott> ion: did you see that fancy new edwardk exported unsafeCoerce
19:18:50 <ion> I saw the paste, didn’t look at “vacuous” yet.
19:19:05 <elliott> ion: the implementation is vacuous = unsafeCoerce
19:19:09 <ion> heh
19:19:16 <elliott> because if you have a legit functor f, you can implement f Void -> f a that way
19:19:30 <elliott> unfortunately, people can lie!
19:19:35 <ion> hehe
19:19:41 <elliott> so (Functor f) => f Void -> f a actually means forall f. f Void -> f a
19:19:48 <elliott> which means Iso Void Void -> Iso Void a
19:19:55 <elliott> which means (a -> Void, Void -> a)
19:20:04 <elliott> er, with a forall on each, of course
19:20:07 <elliott> which means compose them and you get a -> b
19:20:09 <ion> :-)
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19:36:16 <zzo38> You could write it with empty case blocks if it were allowed, such as (fmap $ \x -> case x of {})
19:37:03 <zzo38> But you could use undefined instead.
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20:13:03 <oerjan> !help languages
20:13:04 <EgoBot> ​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:13:13 <elliott> oerjan: I found an exported unsafeCoerce bug in an edwardk package!
20:13:37 <fizzie> !help im trapped in a #esoteric factory
20:13:38 <oerjan> *GASP*
20:13:38 <EgoBot> ​Sorry, I have no help for im_trapped_in_a__esoteric_factory!
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20:13:43 <elliott> oerjan: You know the void package?
20:13:54 <oerjan> no, not really
20:13:55 <elliott> And its unsafeCoerce trick for implementing vacuous :: (Functor f) => f Void -> f a?
20:14:04 <elliott> Because that works for all functors.
20:14:07 <elliott> WELL, http://hpaste.org/78675
20:14:10 <kmc> elliott: pfft found that bug like a year ago
20:14:16 <kmc> srsly though good work
20:14:23 <elliott> kmc: haha did you really
20:14:30 <oerjan> !malbolge ('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>}=<M:9wv6WsU2T|nm-,jcL(I&%$#"`CB]V?Tx<uVtT`Rpo3NlF.Jh++FdbCBA@?]!~|4XzyTT43Qsqq(Lnmkj"Fhg${z@>
20:14:32 <EgoBot> Hello World!
20:14:37 <oerjan> i see.
20:14:43 <elliott> it is funny because this is the second time one of edwardk's "safe" unsafeCoerces has turned out to result in an external unsafeCoerce
20:14:46 <elliott> in a week
20:15:00 <elliott> admittedly the first one was only in the git version of lens and never released
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20:15:07 <kmc> http://hpaste.org/52660
20:15:27 <kmc> different bug i guess
20:15:38 * oerjan is testing the Malbolge hello world to see what it actually prints, because of a strange edit war on wikipedia.
20:16:31 <fizzie> oerjan: But wouldn't that be ORIGINAL RESEARCH?
20:16:35 <elliott> kmc: did you tell edwardk :P
20:17:43 <oerjan> fizzie: OH WHOOPS
20:18:30 <FreeFull> !malbolge a
20:18:31 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
20:18:34 <FreeFull> !malbolge (
20:18:34 <EgoBot> No output.
20:18:38 <FreeFull> !malbolge ()()((()
20:18:39 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
20:18:49 <FreeFull> !malbolge (|||(|(|(|(((|((|(|
20:18:49 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
20:18:50 <shachaf> kmc: YOur bug is the same one, I think, or pretty close.
20:18:52 <fizzie> oerjan: You must write a published book about Malbolge Hello Worlds, and then wait until someone else writes a book that refers to your book, and then you can rely on that.
20:19:00 <kmc> elliott: i did
20:19:28 <elliott> did he not fix it
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20:19:31 <oerjan> elliott: ok so it's an unsafeCoerce that is only safe if the Functor instance actually satisfies the laws, presumably?
20:19:33 <elliott> he said he'd fix it when i showed him this one!
20:19:35 <FreeFull> Wait wait wait
20:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: right
20:19:40 <FreeFull> Does EgoBot do assembly
20:19:47 <elliott> oerjan: any data type that is an actual functor will admit that unsafeCoerce implementation, I think
20:19:48 <FreeFull> Or is asm some other esoteric language
20:19:55 <elliott> or at least, I can't think of a counterexample
20:20:00 <FreeFull> !asm mov eax, 1
20:20:00 <elliott> maybe there is one with fancy GADT type family stuff
20:20:01 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
20:20:16 <fizzie> FreeFull: There's "asm" in both the esoteric and other lists.
20:20:58 <FreeFull> !c int main() { printf("%d\n", 1); return 0;}
20:21:01 <elliott> for some reason I thought of this unsafeCoerce bug while trying to get to sleep
20:21:02 <EgoBot> 1
20:21:08 <elliott> after not having looked at or used the void package in ages
20:21:14 <FreeFull> I wonder
20:21:46 <FreeFull> !c int main() { int arr[1]; int i; for(i=0;;i++) { arr[i] = i; } return 0; }
20:21:48 <EgoBot> ​./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 17341 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:22:01 <fizzie> FreeFull: The !asm runs /interps/gcccomp/gcccomp assembler which will try to gcc yourcode.s.
20:22:15 <fizzie> FreeFull: So you need to write it in x86-64 AT&T assenbler.
20:22:16 <FreeFull> Oh, AT&T syntax
20:22:17 <FreeFull> Evil
20:22:29 <FreeFull> !asm mov 1, @eax
20:22:31 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
20:22:35 <fizzie> That's not what it looks like.
20:22:40 <fizzie> !asm mov $1, %eax
20:22:41 <FreeFull> !asm mov 1, %eax
20:22:42 <EgoBot> No output.
20:22:43 <EgoBot> ​./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 17509 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:22:48 <FreeFull> !asm mov $1, %eax
20:22:49 <EgoBot> No output.
20:22:57 <fizzie> mov 1, %eax would be intel mov eax, [1].
20:23:04 <FreeFull> Ah, without $ it's a memory address
20:23:12 <fizzie> There's also .globl main; main: pushq %rbp; movq %rsp, %rbp; prependend automatically, and movl $0, %eax; leave; ret; suffixed.
20:24:09 <nooodl__> can !asm do anything reasonably nifty
20:24:18 <elliott> fizzie: wanna hear a joke?
20:24:20 <elliott> fizzie: AT&T syntax
20:24:37 <fizzie> !asm .extern puts; .data; hello: .asciz "hello there"; .text; mov $hello, %rdi; call puts
20:24:39 <EgoBot> hello there
20:24:42 <fizzie> Nifty, eh?
20:27:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: btw the error you got on the Malbolge is because every position in the program allows a varying set of 8 bytes, namely the ones which decrypt to actual commands at that spot.
20:27:18 <oerjan> and no other byte is allowed at that spot
20:27:21 <FreeFull> oerjan: I know
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20:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wait when did that become the topic
20:39:20 <elliott> you only just noticed?
20:39:27 <Phantom_Hoover> yes?
20:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> why would i look at the topic, it's not like it ever contains any useful information
20:40:45 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> your ability to state what everyone else had already implicitly figured out is truly a boon to the channel <-- hey don't be too hard on him, i was tempted myself. even while logreading.
20:41:26 <Phantom_Hoover> you don't make a habit of it
20:41:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: Babies are usually not eaten owing to their repugnant looks, as well as their viscosity and unpleasant habits. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:41:44 <oerjan> improvement, yes?
20:41:54 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:42:02 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
20:42:14 <oerjan> bloody minimalists
20:42:24 -!- elliott has set topic: .
20:42:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H.
20:43:00 * oerjan wonders if that actually breaks any clients
20:43:06 <nooodl__> of course not
20:43:24 <atriq> My client doesn't support topics shorter than 28 characters
20:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> no because i just typed in a caret followed by an h
20:43:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that might explain it.
20:43:54 -!- elliott has set topic: caret h.
20:43:59 -!- nooodl__ has set topic.
20:44:00 -!- oerjan has set topic.
20:44:10 -!- atriq has set topic: carrot ache.
20:44:13 <oerjan> ANYONE BROKEN YET?
20:44:17 <elliott> oerjan: how do you insert the actual Ctrl+H with irssi
20:44:23 <oerjan> elliott: ^V^H
20:44:35 <elliott> oerjan: doesn't work for me :(
20:44:37 -!- nooodl__ has set topic: /topic: the new way to chat.
20:44:39 <elliott> maybe it is mosh's fault
20:44:53 <FreeFull>
20:44:56 <FreeFull> No
20:45:01 <FreeFull> ^V^H doesn't work in irssi
20:45:12 -!- atriq has set topic: /topic: the new way to chat | How arre you? | *-r.
20:45:14 <oerjan> hm i may have set a binding myself
20:45:15 <nooodl__> on x-chat ctrl+shift+u-8 works but that's probably not the case in irssi
20:45:30 <oerjan> ^V escape_char
20:45:36 <FreeFull> You need to /bind -delete ^H
20:45:43 <FreeFull> Then you can just do ctrl-h
20:46:06 <oerjan> elliott: ^ the above binding is what i have, and allows me to do that with any control char
20:46:42 <elliott> oerjan: ah
20:46:45 <elliott> FreeFull: that's not what i want to do
20:46:53 <oerjan> i probably set it to resemble vim in that respect
20:48:40 <elliott> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forget,_when_up_to_one%27s_neck_in_alligators,_that_the_mission_is_to_drain_the_swamp
20:49:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd say that's just having your priorities straight
20:49:37 <Bike> is that an actual term anyone has ever used
20:50:04 <elliott> Bike: let's not forget, when up to one's neck in alligators, that the mission is to drain the swamp. it doesn't matter whether anyone has *used* the term.
20:50:33 <Bike> ¬_¬
20:50:37 <oerjan> elliott: i've also bound home to scroll_start and end to scroll_end
20:50:46 <atriq> Why is a lot of things making me feel guilty
20:51:04 <atriq> It's not as if those nuns didn't deserve to be guillotined...
20:52:23 <nooodl__> elliott: thanks for that idiom
20:52:25 <oerjan> because i kept wanting to do that, while they by default just duplicated ^A and ^E. iirc.
20:52:32 <elliott> nooodl__: please dont use that idiom
20:52:40 <nooodl__> i'm sorry
20:52:43 <nooodl__> it's too good
20:55:00 <fizzie> oerjan: They are beginning_of_line and end_of_line by default, yes.
20:55:26 <elliott> does ecape_char even have a default binding
20:55:41 <fizzie> It does not. At least it wasn't bound to anything for me.
20:55:49 <fizzie> Now it is bound to ^V IT'S SPREADING
20:56:37 <elliott> me too
20:56:50 <elliott> maybe i can bind something to type "/win " for me
20:56:55 <elliott> that would be cool
20:57:21 <fizzie> /lose big
20:57:53 <oerjan> yay!
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21:10:35 <shachaf> kmc: Yes.
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21:15:29 <FreeFull> oerjan: But how am I meant to get to the start or end of what I typed then
21:16:43 <oerjan> FreeFull: ^A and ^E, i said
21:17:25 <oerjan> in my initial setup, those had the same bindings as home and end. so i changed one pair to something else useful.
21:17:43 <hagb4rd> and mess things up
21:17:53 <hagb4rd> mindfuck factor
21:18:11 <elliott> 21:16:34 -!- TuxBlackEdo [~TuxBlackE@unaffiliated/tuxblackedo] has joined ##crypto
21:18:14 <elliott> 21:17:16 <TuxBlackEdo> hey i just met you, and this is crazy, but here is a cyphertext, crack it for me maybe?
21:18:20 <elliott> regretting joining this channel so i could let lambdabot in it
21:18:49 <oerjan> elliott: well if you can now find a one-line lambdabot command to crack it, all will be well.
21:19:46 <FreeFull> oerjan: I have ^A as my tmux key
21:19:52 <FreeFull> And if I pass ^A through
21:19:58 <FreeFull> I have that make a literal <CTCP>
21:20:08 <FreeFull> For manually making CTCPs
21:20:53 <oerjan> FreeFull: fine, we can assume there's a reason irssi allows personal settings.
21:21:25 <FreeFull> Because otherwise nobody would use it?
21:21:41 <hagb4rd> exactly
21:21:49 <zzo38> This IRC client makes CTRL+A send a literal CTRL+A for such purpose; to send other controls literal requires CTRL+P at first.
21:26:27 <fizzie> I keep using ^A and ^E for start_of_line/end_of_line even though it's under screen; I just ^Aa all the time. It's very stupid.
21:26:37 <elliott> have you considered changing your screen key
21:26:40 <elliott> to not be stupid
21:27:03 <fizzie> I think that would just make me type a lot of ^As everywhere.
21:27:04 <FreeFull> ^A is the most convienient for me
21:27:37 <FreeFull> The default key for tmux is ^B or some shizz
21:28:31 <fizzie> It's not as if I could think and operate a computer at the same time, so I have to keep doing the stupid thing.
21:29:52 <elliott> fizzie: Is there a way to do a "/window list" that lists in the current buffer?
21:29:55 <elliott> Current window.
21:29:57 <elliott> Thing.
21:30:18 * oerjan suddenly imagines an intelligent race that cannot think and act at the same time, but must do all actions according to (short) preplanned algorithms
21:30:30 <fizzie> elliott: You can not have a status window at all, I think that would do it.
21:30:43 <hagb4rd> fizzie: you could try to pawlow self-conditioning
21:30:46 <elliott> fizzie: that is not terribly satisfying
21:30:58 <oerjan> *species
21:31:01 <elliott> fizzie: i would be ok with a way to write a key combo that switches to the status window and does /window list and then types "/window " for me i guess
21:31:02 <hagb4rd> fizzie: everytime you use type ^A bite yourself
21:31:06 <elliott> so i could do like ^W <number><enter>
21:31:52 <shachaf> elliott: What about Alt number?
21:32:00 <oerjan> and once an algorithm has started, it cannot be halted, except according to its own rules, and no thinking can happen simultaneously.
21:32:29 <elliott> shachaf: that doesn't show me a list. this is for when i forget which number is which
21:32:39 <fizzie> elliott: You can probably do that switch-to-status thing.
21:32:51 <shachaf> elliott: Just type the name in?
21:33:15 <oerjan> and the algorithms are too short to simulate any significant intelligence.
21:33:22 <elliott> "/win goto the-full-name" is a bit long.
21:33:28 <elliott> I would accept "/w substring"
21:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oi elliott
21:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> it's definitely tonight
21:34:25 <oerjan> hm it occurs to me that such an intelligence species would get around this by cooperation.
21:34:30 <oerjan> *-nt
21:34:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not quite
21:34:47 <FreeFull> I should bind scroll_start and scroll_end to something
21:34:53 <FreeFull> Might be useful
21:35:14 <fizzie> elliott: "/bind X multi change_window 1;command window list;insert_text /win " (with the trailing space) where X is your key, I think.
21:35:16 <atriq> elliott, are you getting addicted to lens?
21:35:17 <kmc> switch (core.opcode_index+Fetchb()) {
21:35:18 <kmc> #include "core_normal/prefix_none.h"
21:35:18 <kmc> #include "core_normal/prefix_0f.h"
21:35:18 <kmc> #include "core_normal/prefix_66.h"
21:35:36 <hagb4rd> intelligence seems not be the best method for multitasking
21:35:39 <elliott> atriq: more like addicted to HAPPINESS
21:35:54 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, let's try this. (Is ^W bound to anything by default?)
21:36:05 <fizzie> elliott: It's bound to the usual delete-word thing.
21:36:22 <elliott> Oh, right.
21:36:23 <elliott> I use that.
21:36:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what are lenses and can they be given a succinct, incomprehensible definition in terms of category theory
21:37:39 <atriq> There to Functors as something else is to Applicatives
21:38:17 <oerjan> atriq: Traversables?
21:38:26 * oerjan vaguely recalls something about that
21:38:31 <atriq> No, something more category theoryish
21:39:21 <zzo38> A lens is not a functor, although there is functor from category of isomorphisms of (->) to Lens, I think.
21:39:22 <oerjan> i thought lens had a spot where you put in either Functor or Applicative and the former gave you an ordinary lens
21:39:27 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, basically, they use functors to generalize functions and setters to the SAME THING
21:39:35 <atriq> oerjan, yes
21:40:05 <zzo38> But perhaps they could be made on other categories too, I don't know
21:40:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: store comonad coalgebra or something
21:41:05 <elliott> ah: "Lenses are the coalgebras for the costate comonad"
21:41:24 <Phantom_Hoover> are colenses algebras for the state monad
21:41:33 <elliott> ask shachaf
21:41:41 * oerjan might perhaps look at lens properly some day.
21:41:56 <oerjan> although maybe not until after upgrading the platform.
21:42:07 <shachaf> hi
21:42:08 <FreeFull> fizzie: I just made lots of alt+shift and then ^Z bindings
21:42:14 <oerjan> i think i'm at least two versions behind.
21:42:22 <FreeFull> I'll do ^Z-shift or ^Z-alt when I'll need it
21:42:23 <atriq> What would an algebra in the state monad even look like
21:42:24 <fizzie> Conans are to good cooperation what nans are to good operation.
21:42:28 <atriq> "State b a -> a"?
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21:42:54 <oerjan> fizzie: i thought Conans were barbarians.
21:43:08 <shachaf> atriq: Yep.
21:43:13 <atriq> oerjan, it's cool, nans are grandmothers
21:43:15 <zzo38> I guess algebra of state monad would be like ((s -> (a, s)) -> a)
21:44:49 <FreeFull> A grandmother certainly isn't a number
21:44:54 <oerjan> except that Conan that is a comedian. i guess his nan is rather median, then.
21:45:02 <hagb4rd> and conan is an instance of barbarian
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21:45:38 <fizzie> Nan the Cobarbarian.
21:47:34 <hagb4rd> no remorse & no regret
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21:51:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OMG an elf siege
21:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never had an elf siege before
21:51:50 <elliott> kmc: edwardk fixed it
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21:53:17 <kmc> heh
21:54:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: do the elves walk around saying "siege heil"?
21:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> perhaps
21:59:02 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Nan the Cobarbarian. <-- I read that as "Nam"
21:59:14 <Vorpal> and was wondering why you were joking about Indian food
22:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal,
22:03:04 <Phantom_Hoover> the indian bread is called 'naan'
22:03:43 <FreeFull> It's flat and tasty
22:03:43 <Vorpal> hm, is that how it is written in Swedish though? *checks*
22:03:45 <kmc> woah that's a palindrome
22:03:59 <kmc> nån
22:04:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah you are right
22:04:51 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sometimes also plain 'nan'; I refer to it as "not-a-number bread" personally.
22:05:02 <FreeFull> palindrome is disappointing because it's not autological
22:05:35 <FreeFull> fizzie: I haven't seen bread that was a number
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22:06:07 <fizzie> "Nam" is also a Finnish interjection much the same as the English "yum".
22:06:16 <fizzie> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nam#Interjection agrees.
22:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, i bet you're really popular with all the local takeaways
22:06:26 <FreeFull> Nom nom nom
22:07:27 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I've ever had to mention it to one of those; the not-a-number designation has pretty much been confined to discussions at home about what to buy from the store.
22:08:21 <kmc> shachaf: do you know how hard it is to segfault DOSBox with bad guest code? if you answered "not at all hard" then you are correct
22:08:43 <kmc> printf '\x62\xe5' > foo.com && dosbox foo.com
22:09:00 <fizzie> Hey, Volapük also has the word "nam".
22:09:07 <FreeFull> kmc: Hell, I have it happen even with valid DOS programs
22:09:12 <fizzie> "Etymology: Reversal of “man”, from Latin manus (“hand”)."
22:09:24 <FreeFull> mandible
22:09:25 <fizzie> (It means "hand".)
22:09:26 <shachaf> kmc: That's not very hard.
22:10:28 <fizzie> DOSBox doesn't check segment limits either. :/
22:11:53 <FreeFull> Its OPL emulation seems better than worse though
22:12:21 <fizzie> You can poke the VGA memory with a xor ax, ax; mov ds, ax; mov eax, 0xa0000; mov byte [eax], 42 in it.
22:12:59 <FreeFull> What would happen on a 386 machine in 16 bit mode with that code?
22:13:07 <FreeFull> Or a 486
22:14:47 <fizzie> I am not entirely sure, but I'd guess an exception in at least virtual-8086 mode; maybe not in real-address mode.
22:15:27 <fizzie> Perhaps in real-address mode too.
22:15:30 <kmc> sadly that segfault is only a call to a NULL function pointer
22:16:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:16:55 <fizzie> "In the real-address mode, vector 13 is the segment overrun exception" just going by the name, that could happen.
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22:22:17 <nys> so i just got this idea
22:22:20 <nys> http://pastebin.com/UnfL0Z7T
22:22:30 <shachaf> kmc: Looks like segfaults aren't very hard to come by.
22:22:41 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe I was just wrong.
22:26:09 <kmc> what did you observe?
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22:28:08 <shachaf> Hm, printf '\x44\x51' > foo.com && dosbox foo.com
22:28:25 <shachaf> Unlike 62 e5, this isn't an invalid instruction.
22:28:36 <shachaf> It's just inc sp; push cx
22:28:58 <FreeFull> So overwrite whatever was on top of stack
22:29:13 <shachaf> Right.
22:29:20 <shachaf> I don't *think* that's supposed to segfault it...
22:29:24 <zzo38> But will the program terminate, or probably it will result something invalid and break it?
22:29:29 <kmc> segfaults my Debian DOSBox 0.74 but not the SVN trunk version
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22:30:32 <FreeFull> shachaf: I think the top of the stack would contain the return to dos
22:30:43 <FreeFull> But that shouldn't matter
22:31:58 <shachaf> kmc: Anyway there are a bunch of other 2-byte .com files that will crash it.
22:32:09 <kmc> did you try them all?
22:32:33 <zzo38> To return to DOS using the stack I think you will need a RET instruction, though.
22:32:38 <FreeFull> Yeah
22:32:40 <shachaf> No.
22:32:46 <shachaf> I generated them all but trying them is a hassle.
22:32:49 <FreeFull> Otherwise the CPU would just go past your program and then execute whatever
22:35:02 <kmc> seems the guest can install a callback for certain events (not the ISA-provided interrupt vector mechanism but some DOSBox thing) and the default callback is "jump to address 0 in the host"
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22:36:30 <zzo38> Is that implementing the "mount" command?
22:37:08 -!- nys has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:37:21 <kmc> no idea
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22:44:31 <shachaf> kmc: How did you come across it?
22:44:40 <kmc> randomly
22:46:06 -!- nys has joined.
22:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oi elliott
22:46:21 <nys> oi
22:46:40 <elliott> its not night yet
22:47:39 <monqy> have you really not
22:47:42 <monqy> started the fortess yetr
22:47:48 <monqy> are you ever going to..........................
22:48:20 <elliott> yes
22:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover> one step at a time man!
22:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> first, get df working (come on you must have done this)
22:48:59 <elliott> i have to come up with a way to make sure Phantom_Hoover won't cheat!!
22:49:06 <elliott> something about cats and explosoins
22:49:12 <shachaf> elliott: imo don't play df btw
22:49:26 <monqy> playing df means not fixing lens : )
22:49:55 <shachaf> monqy: What happened to your nose?
22:50:17 <monqy> it's invisible
22:50:27 <shachaf>
22:50:28 <monqy> alt. stylized out
22:50:54 <monqy> alt. it's a " "
22:50:59 <monqy> alt. can't you see it????
22:51:14 <FreeFull> :3)
22:51:26 <monqy> no
22:51:30 <shachaf> monqy: whats alt.
22:51:33 <shachaf> is it like ctrl
22:51:35 <FreeFull> alternatively
22:51:47 <shachaf> is it like meta
22:51:53 <FreeFull> super
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22:57:38 <oerjan> @tell ais523 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Carriage#Representation_erasure
22:57:38 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:21:34 <Arc_Koen> my god it's full of (5-legged) stars
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23:44:28 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: *MWAHAHAHA*
23:44:57 <Arc_Koen> do you not say "five-legged"?
23:45:41 <oerjan> i think five-pointed is more common, although my maniackal laugh was not about that.
23:47:02 <hagb4rd> where do i know that from?
23:47:16 <hagb4rd> it sounds familiar
23:47:25 <oerjan> there's even a wp article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-pointed_star
23:50:33 <hagb4rd> though i find legs more accurate than points since it 10 of them
23:50:39 <hagb4rd> it has
23:51:00 <hagb4rd> pentagram has 5, right
23:51:16 <zzo38> Yes
23:51:37 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um isn't the mutual recursion in ocaml solved the same way with types as with functions, by using "and"?
23:52:08 <Arc_Koen> you can do that?
23:52:15 * Arc_Koen will try in 3.2 seconds
23:52:32 * oerjan keeps count
23:53:04 <Arc_Koen> IT WORKS
23:53:06 <Arc_Koen> man
23:53:09 <Arc_Koen> that was simple
23:53:12 * oerjan does a little dance
23:53:39 <Arc_Koen> and I had always thought "it's stupid that you can do mutual recursion for variables but not for types"
23:54:05 <Arc_Koen> that's kind of a problem I have, though
23:54:40 <Arc_Koen> for instance when playing a board game and my opponent does something unexpected I will usually think "uh, that's a weird move" rather than "ok, now, why did he do that?"
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23:56:10 <oerjan> obviously this is simpler in haskell >:)
23:56:11 <hagb4rd> on the other hand this would pretty much depend on the move
23:56:55 <hagb4rd> is there a native operator in haskell to get the cartesian product?
23:57:12 <Bike> how can it be simpler than "use and"
23:57:15 <oerjan> > liftM2 (,) "may" "be"
23:57:17 <lambdabot> [('m','b'),('m','e'),('a','b'),('a','e'),('y','b'),('y','e')]
23:57:47 <hagb4rd> okay
23:58:51 <hagb4rd> couldn't it be more like may X be?
23:58:57 <oerjan> Bike: admittedly for values/functions you also need to use "rec", i think
23:59:33 <oerjan> hagb4rd: it's not _that_ often you need it i think...
00:00:03 <hagb4rd> not really no.. at least not for now
00:00:21 <oerjan> @hoogle f a -> f b -> f (a,b)
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence zip :: Seq a -> Seq b -> Seq (a, b)
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:00:25 <elliott> you can just define an operator for it if you want
00:00:35 <oerjan> wrong function
00:00:38 <hagb4rd> yea
00:00:39 <elliott> with idiom brackets it'd be (| (a,b) |) :P
00:01:01 <shachaf> Would it really?
00:01:11 <elliott> something like that
00:02:09 <oerjan> @hoogle Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f (a,b)
00:02:09 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence zip :: Seq a -> Seq b -> Seq (a, b)
00:02:10 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:02:10 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:02:17 <oerjan> bad hoogle
00:02:53 <oerjan> zzo38 has been suggesting this function, i think :)
00:03:07 <oerjan> it's an alternative base function for applicatives
00:03:39 <zzo38> If you are doing applicative (not zip) then for f a -> f b -> f (a,b) you will have uncurry liftPair or liftA2 (,)
00:04:00 <oerjan> and more connected to the category theory way of looking at it.
00:04:02 <zzo38> I called it the liftPair which I think should be one of the class methods for Applicative
00:04:35 <hagb4rd> thx a lot
00:04:59 <oerjan> @hoogle (><)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Arbitrary (><) :: (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck (><) :: (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.Monad (><) :: (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> (a, c) -> (b, d)
00:05:41 <oerjan> >< is used, but not in a very basic library, i think
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01:23:42 <Arc_Koen> what
01:23:43 <Arc_Koen> what
01:23:56 <Arc_Koen> I just begin to watch the next stargate episode
01:24:07 <Arc_Koen> and it started by a "previously in stargate sg-1..."
01:24:09 <Arc_Koen> and
01:24:36 <Arc_Koen> cute ewoks coming out of everywhere
01:24:43 <Arc_Koen> weeee arrrre the fuuurrrrrlings
01:24:52 <Arc_Koen> daniel jackson: we finally get to meet you!
01:24:54 <oerjan> doing that for a time travel episode would be a mindscrew
01:25:03 <Arc_Koen> haha
01:25:11 <Arc_Koen> yeah it would
01:25:41 <Arc_Koen> I think there was a series called "stargate gravity" that was canceled very early because it was too much of a mindscrew
01:25:46 <Arc_Koen> ihavetofindthat
01:25:57 <Arc_Koen> anyway, back to episode *hoping it's a joke*
01:26:35 <Arc_Koen> .
01:26:43 <Arc_Koen> (it is)
01:33:57 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: regarding your last edit, if it's like haskell -rectypes is only needed when there is no named constructor between a type and its recursed appearance.
01:34:21 <oerjan> (well haskell doesn't have -rectypes, but that's when you get an error.)
01:34:36 <Bike> Arc_Koen: that episode was awesome.
01:35:46 <oerjan> value constructor, that is.
01:36:41 <oerjan> so if you removed _both_ "A of" and "B of", it would be needed, but having at least one of them is enough.
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01:46:57 <kmc> wine doesn't provide any isolation against malicious windows programs right
01:47:03 <kmc> like they can still execute native linux syscalls i think
01:48:10 <Bike> are you asking because your system has been compromised by a Fallout crack
01:49:04 <kmc> it hasn't been compromised yet ;)
01:49:49 <shachaf> Fallout for DOS, right?
01:50:06 <shachaf> kmc: What's with the dosbox and WINE thing?
01:52:07 <kmc> well you see
01:52:12 <kmc> i am excited about grand theft auto v
01:52:18 <kmc> coming out next year
01:52:26 <kmc> so i decided to play grand theft auto i in dosbox
01:52:31 <kmc> but i realized it sucks
01:52:43 <kmc> so now i am trying to play san andreas in wine
01:54:50 <kmc> great i'm supposed to get wine from multiarch now
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01:55:02 <shachaf> How do you get WINE in Debian anyway?
01:55:04 <kmc> i'm sure this will not in any way ruin my entire system and cause apt to segfault randomly like last time
01:55:10 <kmc> shachaf: the usual way?
01:55:57 <shachaf> Hmm.
01:56:09 <shachaf> At one point the package wasn't available in testing.
01:56:16 <shachaf> Even though it was in stable and unstable.
01:56:19 <shachaf> Looks like it's back.
01:56:28 <shachaf> I still get that issue occasionally with other packages.
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02:06:11 <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft
02:06:23 <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:06:51 <shachaf> Hmm, WINE ran Red Alert 3 better than Windows for me at one point.
02:07:01 <kmc> oh nice
02:07:09 <kmc> i guess i did run about half of deus ex too
02:07:12 <kmc> didn't totally work
02:07:28 <shachaf> It also ran a bunch of other things.
02:07:34 <shachaf> Diablo II worked well.
02:08:12 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:08:24 <HackEgo> 860) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:09:10 <Sgeo> Shattered Galaxy worked in WINE for me some years ago
02:09:21 <Sgeo> ...the UI looks like Starcraft, I think
02:09:59 <kmc> are you sure you weren't actually playing starcraft
02:10:35 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: hmm, right
02:10:43 <Sgeo> wtf I tried going to wine.appdb.com derp
02:11:05 <Arc_Koen> that seems like a very primitive way to recognize troublesome recursive types
02:11:18 <Sgeo> http://appdb.winehq.org/appimage.php?iId=12758
02:11:30 <Arc_Koen> especially for a language like Ocaml which is supposed to be good at that kind of stuff
02:11:57 <Arc_Koen> Bike: yeah it was great :)
02:12:03 <Arc_Koen> it didn't really have an ending though
02:12:11 <Arc_Koen> and it felt really really short
02:12:23 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the thing i've heard is that if you don't have that rule, you very often get things that type well if you leave out arguments
02:12:54 <Arc_Koen> can you rephrase?
02:13:00 <Arc_Koen> I'm notsure I understand
02:13:20 <oerjan> missing or extra arguments to functions often end up not giving type errors if you allow recursive types.
02:13:29 <Sgeo> Wait, does Starcraft look like that image? I've never actually played
02:13:39 <Arc_Koen> oh, right
02:13:57 <Arc_Koen> yes for instance with "('a -> 'a) as 'a"
02:14:00 <oerjan> yeah
02:15:08 <Arc_Koen> so it's not about preventing nonsensical data structures?
02:15:26 <oerjan> for haskell, they have newtype which always compiles as no extra overhead, so it's not _necessary_ to use recursive types for anything.
02:16:01 <Arc_Koen> for instance if you define type 'a endless = 'a * 'a endless
02:16:51 <oerjan> i guess it prevents nonsensical data structures too, although in haskell data Stream a = Stream a (Stream a) is a perfectly useful type for always infinite lists
02:17:30 <oerjan> and more or less the same as what you wrote, underneath
02:17:37 <Arc_Koen> # type a = a;;
02:17:37 <Arc_Koen> Error: The type abbreviation a is cyclic
02:17:38 <Arc_Koen> # type a = A of a;;
02:17:38 <Arc_Koen> type a = A of a
02:17:56 <Arc_Koen> soooooooooo not so useful after all
02:18:24 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait, it works
02:18:31 <Arc_Koen> let rec x = A x
02:19:47 <oerjan> yeah ocaml has special support for cyclic constants
02:20:34 <oerjan> :k Mu
02:20:36 <lambdabot> (* -> *) -> *
02:20:59 <oerjan> > fix (Mu . Identity)
02:21:01 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
02:21:24 <oerjan> > fix (Fix . Identity)
02:21:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Fix'
02:21:29 <shachaf> kmc: Is Starcraft good?
02:21:33 <shachaf> Are there any good RTSes? :-(
02:21:35 <oerjan> darn what was it called
02:22:07 <monqy> @type In
02:22:08 <lambdabot> f (Mu f) -> Mu f
02:22:16 <monqy> that?
02:22:18 <oerjan> oh right
02:22:24 <shachaf> @src Mu
02:22:24 <lambdabot> newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) }
02:22:34 <oerjan> > fix (In . Identity)
02:22:35 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show
02:22:35 <lambdabot> (Data.Functor.Identity.I...
02:22:36 <shachaf> @src Rec -- better??
02:22:36 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
02:22:41 <oerjan> bah
02:22:43 <shachaf> I guess not.
02:22:48 <oerjan> > fix (In . Just)
02:22:50 <lambdabot> In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (J...
02:23:17 <Sgeo> In?
02:23:20 <monqy> In.
02:23:21 <Sgeo> Oh
02:23:44 <shachaf> @ty InR
02:23:46 <lambdabot> (Rec a -> a) -> Rec a
02:23:51 <shachaf> better than In??
02:24:40 <oerjan> shachaf: not the same purpose
02:24:54 <shachaf> oerjan: "better" is a total ordering on all objects.
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02:25:34 <shachaf> For example, InR is better than In, and In is better than bell peppers
02:26:47 <oerjan> objects that think "better" is not a total ordering on all objects are better than objects that think "better" is a total ordering on all objects
02:27:18 <shachaf> Objects that don't think are better than both of those.
02:27:27 <zzo38> I think "better" is not even a partial ordering
02:27:38 <oerjan> also, i like bell peppers
02:27:51 <zzo38> I also think "better" is not always transitive.
02:28:04 <Sgeo> zzo38, is a computer that works not better than a broken computer?
02:28:13 <shachaf> Caltrain is not always transitive. :-(
02:28:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: depends. was it trying to kill you before it broke?
02:29:03 <zzo38> oerjan: Good point I suppose.
02:29:17 <zzo38> However, I meant is not *always* transitive; it is sometimes transitive.
02:31:25 <oerjan> if x <= y or y <= x always holds, then any three objects must have some transitivity among them.
02:32:46 <oerjan> (clarifying and then proving the above statement left as an exercise.)
02:34:33 <zzo38> Well, in a partial ordering and in a total ordering you would have if x<=y and y<=x and x=y. A partial ordering is the same as a thin category, isn't it?
02:35:08 <zzo38> (They may be different even though equal, I guess?)
02:35:18 <zzo38> Also, what is better than something else, also means, is better in what way?
02:37:40 <shachaf> @quote edwardk ieee
02:37:40 <lambdabot> edwardk says: type level ieee floats are a crime against nature. i had to implement them in c++ for template meta programming once. never ever again
02:37:45 <shachaf> kmc: See what you're missing?
02:38:20 <shachaf> Actually I've been getting more annoy{ed,ing} lately where #haskell is concerned.
02:38:37 <shachaf> The other day shapr told me I was being too negative.
02:40:53 <oerjan> shapr hasn't broken long ago?
02:40:57 <ion> shachaf is becoming kmc?
02:41:51 <zzo38> Maybe there should be that a instance can be designated "evil" which indicates that it is not completely mathematically correct, and that derived instances from evil instances also are called evil; for example, instances such as (Num Float) and so on have this designation. In case of optimization of mathematical laws (if any), they can be omitted.
02:42:22 <zzo38> So due to this it would apply also to (Monoid (Sum Double)) and so on since rounding errors can cause the result to be wrong.
02:48:54 <zzo38> Do you know of chess variant involving Scrabble tiles as the pieces? (There is the number in the corner, which can be used to tell which direction it is facing, if you like.)
02:54:44 <Arc_Koen> "how is it that you are alive when everyone else on the planet was killed?" "I was protected by this" *points at her necklace* *camera zooms in to display necklace + cleavage* ... *camera stays on cleavage* ... *camera still on cleavage*
02:55:18 <Bike> scifi.jpg
02:55:41 <zzo38> *camera won't move because now the camera men is killed too
02:55:50 <Arc_Koen> haha
02:56:39 <Arc_Koen> seriously the necklace thing is just there for fanservice
02:58:45 <Arc_Koen> you can't expect the lead female opposing character to die in the first scene just because of jewelry
03:02:18 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/97PdF.jpg
03:02:22 <Sgeo> (found on Reddit)
03:10:09 <oerjan> :t to
03:10:10 <lambdabot> Gettable f => (s -> a) -> (a -> f a) -> s -> f s
03:11:47 -!- TheSmooze has changed nick to WindWhistler.
03:13:22 -!- WindWhistler has changed nick to Gregor.
03:16:19 <oerjan> :t over mapped
03:16:34 <oerjan> >_>
03:17:07 <shachaf> foo :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]; foo f xs = over mapped f xs is even compiled into foo = map!
03:18:14 <oerjan> > "hm..."
03:18:23 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
03:18:23 <lambdabot> mueval: Prelude.undefined
03:18:25 <lambdabot> thread killed
03:18:34 <oerjan> :(
03:18:38 <oerjan> :t over mapped
03:18:40 <shachaf> oerjan: I messed things up a little bit in the other channel.
03:18:46 <shachaf> 19:11 <shachaf> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo
03:18:47 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
03:18:52 <shachaf> 19:13 <shachaf> "whoops"
03:19:16 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
03:19:29 <shachaf> oerjan: Isn't it great, though!
03:19:37 <oerjan> yay!
03:19:49 <shachaf> oerjan: There are a lot of unsafeCoerces in lens to make it happen.
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03:25:21 <oerjan> :t from
03:25:46 <oerjan> *chirp*
03:25:53 <shachaf> from
03:25:53 <shachaf> :: forall r.
03:25:53 <shachaf> Isomorphic r =>
03:25:53 <shachaf> Isomorphism (B r) (A r) (T r) (S r) -> r
03:26:01 <shachaf> bats
03:26:29 <oerjan> wtf
03:26:45 <lambdabot> thread killed
03:26:54 <shachaf> oerjan: We could sure use a nicer Iso. :-(
03:27:11 <Sgeo> It is becoming obvious that I don't understand delimited continuations as well as I thought
03:27:33 <oerjan> he said, before his brain exploded.
03:27:47 <elliott> shachaf: quote that and not the other one?
03:27:53 <elliott> the anon one
03:27:57 <Bike> of COURSE, if I just shift into four day cubic time then *boom*
03:27:58 <shachaf> elliott: ?
03:28:14 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, I just gave the answer to oerjan's question.
03:28:20 <shachaf> anon
03:28:20 <shachaf> :: forall r.
03:28:20 <shachaf> (Isomorphic r, S r ~ Maybe (A r), T r ~ Maybe (A r), B r ~ A r) =>
03:28:20 <shachaf> A r -> (A r -> Bool) -> r
03:28:55 <shachaf> @Arr
03:28:57 <shachaf> @Arrr
03:29:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: arr yarr
03:29:22 <lambdabot> Aye Aye Cap'n
03:29:34 <monqy> what are S, T, A, B
03:29:40 <elliott> :t (^.)
03:29:48 <lambdabot> s -> Getting a s t a b -> a
03:29:56 <elliott> monqy: its what you get
03:30:09 <monqy> no thats s t a b
03:30:15 <monqy> a s t a b
03:30:20 <elliott> monqy: aren't you ready to get a s t a b.....
03:30:24 <monqy> this is S T A B...............................
03:30:29 <elliott> theyre type families
03:30:29 <shachaf> S = s
03:30:39 <shachaf> monqy: haskell = casein sensitive
03:31:10 <oerjan> shachaf: how cheesy
03:31:30 <shachaf> OK, fine.
03:31:33 <shachaf> That's a lie. :-(
03:32:32 <oerjan> in fact haskell pays no attention to cheese at all
03:32:57 <shachaf> Depends on the cheese.
03:33:21 <shachaf> oerjan: You know the thing that's called "bulgarian cheese" in Hebrew?
03:33:28 <oerjan> ...no.
03:33:36 <monqy> elliott: why would people name their type families S T A B
03:34:00 <shachaf> monqy: elliott just got startled
03:34:02 <oerjan> monqy: it's a very dysfunctional family
03:34:11 <elliott> monqy: some people know no taste. sooner or later they'll be getting a s t a b
03:34:23 <monqy> shachaf: do you know ?
03:34:30 <shachaf> monqy: know what
03:34:35 <monqy> why its S T A B
03:34:54 <shachaf> oh
03:35:00 <shachaf> S is a reference to s
03:35:03 <shachaf> T is a reference to t
03:35:07 <shachaf> A is a reference to a
03:35:11 <shachaf> B is a reference to c
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03:35:30 <monqy> help :(
03:35:54 <oerjan> obvyusly
03:35:56 <shachaf> monqy: class Isomorphic r where iso :: (S r -> A r) -> (B r -> T r) -> r; type S; type T; type A; type B
03:36:07 <shachaf> "um....."
03:36:13 <shachaf> monqy: class Isomorphic r where iso :: (S r -> A r) -> (B r -> T r) -> r; type S r; type T r; type A r; type B r
03:36:37 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicA (x :: *) :: *
03:36:37 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicB (x :: *) :: *
03:36:38 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicF (x :: *) :: * -> *
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicA (a -> f_b) = a
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicB (a -> f b) = b
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicF (a -> f b) = f
03:36:52 <shachaf> instance (Functor f, x ~ (a -> f b), y ~ (s -> f t)) => Isomorphic (x -> y) where type S (x -> y) = CoalgebraicA y type T (x -> y) = CoalgebraicB y type A (x -> y) = CoalgebraicA x type B (x -> y) = CoalgebraicB x iso sa bt afb s = bt <$> afb (sa s)
03:37:08 <Bike> glad we got that cleared up.
03:37:09 <oerjan> i think shachaf is going critical. RUN!
03:37:34 <shachaf> oerjan: "don't worry it's constructive criticism"
03:37:45 <shachaf> `quote critcism
03:37:49 <HackEgo> No output.
03:37:50 <shachaf> `quote criticism
03:37:54 <HackEgo> 175) Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/ \ 720) <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you wrote a Haskell book, I would read it and possibly provide classical criticism. <shachaf> That is to say, non-constructive.
03:38:00 <shachaf> imo 720
03:38:44 <oerjan> international mathematics olympiad 720
03:39:03 <oerjan> *al
03:39:17 <shachaf> olympial
03:39:33 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSalienandpredat
03:39:42 <shachaf> It's a very good URL.
03:39:49 <zzo38> Do you like my other symmetric variants too?
03:39:51 <shachaf> It has almost all the components.
03:40:02 <shachaf> Variants?
03:40:12 <oerjan> microsoft aliens sound scary
03:40:13 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't mean the URL; I mean the game written by the rules described on that HTML page.
03:40:21 <shachaf> What page?
03:40:22 <shachaf> Oh!
03:40:28 <shachaf> You want me to send an HTTP GET request.
03:40:31 <shachaf> I get it now.
03:40:33 <zzo38> oerjan: I think "MS" stands for "member submission".
03:40:37 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes.
03:40:50 <oerjan> oh it was submitted by alien members, ok
03:42:04 <shachaf> monqy: you should take the bus to san francisco
03:42:06 <shachaf> $1!
03:42:09 <zzo38> Other games I made which is symmetric variant of asymmetric game, is: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MStworingchess http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsymmetricsnark http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsymmetricmonst
03:42:26 <shachaf> Microsoft symmetric snark?
03:42:49 <oerjan> shachaf: it's what happens when their tech support goes _really_ wrong
03:44:26 <shachaf> zzo38: btw asymmetric ≻ symmetric
03:48:18 <kmc> ok i got GTA San Andreas to run in Wine
03:48:54 <zzo38> I have also, in comments on other pages, proposed symmetric variant of Angels and Devils.
03:49:16 <kmc> it works pretty well except that the world is filled with huge flickering multicolored polygons, and every object casts a trail of flame against the sky
03:49:26 <kmc> so i'm just going to play as if my character is tripping on acid
03:50:14 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know conal lives in San Andreas?
03:50:32 <kmc> maybe
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03:51:00 <shachaf> kmc: Isn't that how you play "real life" too?
03:52:42 <kmc> not really
04:01:31 <elliott> kmc isn't real.
04:02:00 <elliott> kmc: should I learn Agda
04:02:40 <kmc> yeah
04:02:57 <zzo38> There are different definitions of "astrological age" which is not agreed on. As far as I know two is possible: [1] The constellation of the vernal equinox point. [2] The negative of ayanamsha. In the second case, you have to know what the reference date is!
04:03:06 <oerjan> elliott: wait, you haven't already?
04:03:08 <shachaf> I thought Agda was just Haskell with fancy types and ":" instead of "::".
04:03:31 <elliott> oerjan: well I "know" it
04:03:41 <elliott> oerjan: i can't read their freaky unicode proofs
04:03:53 <elliott> (have you seen them)
04:04:22 <oerjan> i ... am not sure.
04:04:42 <zzo38> Agda is also require Unicode.
04:04:48 <zzo38> I don't like that.
04:04:57 <elliott> actually agda does not require unicode at all
04:05:17 <shachaf> The worse part is that you have to use Emacs. :-(
04:05:24 <shachaf> (It's actually not that bad.)
04:06:53 <zzo38> Haskell does not require Unicode, but it does supports it. Some libraries do have names only using non-ASCII, and GHC has no way to enter the name using Punycode or something like that!
04:07:11 <elliott> agda does not require unicode
04:07:21 <elliott> shachaf: do you know of any agda-mode docs
04:07:33 <shachaf> elliott: Yes.
04:07:39 <shachaf> C-h C-something
04:07:50 <elliott> that's not good docs
04:07:57 <elliott> :(
04:08:13 <shachaf> They're not terrible either.
04:08:13 <Bike> try C-h m to get the mode's online documentation.
04:08:23 <shachaf> "online documentation"
04:08:29 <elliott> Bike: It's useless.
04:08:33 <elliott> Bike: Also, "online documentation", really.
04:08:43 <Bike> shrug.
04:08:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do you use emacs for anything else?
04:08:55 <elliott> yes
04:08:56 <elliott> sometime
04:08:56 <elliott> s
04:09:28 <shachaf> You just have to know Emacs.
04:09:47 <shachaf> elliott: btw colenses are pretty cool right??
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04:09:57 <shachaf> I'm kind of annoyed at how ugly Isomorphic etc. are.
04:09:59 <elliott> shachaf: yo is there something like http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~nad/listings/lib/Category.Functor.html in the stdlib but that encodes the laws
04:10:02 <elliott> or do i gotta write this shit mysel
04:10:03 <elliott> f
04:10:04 <shachaf> `welcome epicmonkey
04:10:07 <HackEgo> epicmonkey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:10:09 <kmc> http://blog.opensourcenerd.com/i-can-haz-virus this person seems to have some serious misunderstandings about what wine does and doesn't provide
04:10:39 <zzo38> They should add a pragma in GHC to allow you to write the names in ASCII, by specifying the quoted string of the Unicode name, and the unquoted name in ASCII; the first letter/symbol must have the same case. It also allow to specify alternative names for constructors, even if it is already ASCII.
04:10:45 <kmc> also lol @ the many commenters who think the difference between user account and root on a linux desktop is super important
04:11:19 <shachaf> elliott: https://github.com/copumpkin/categories/blob/master/Categories/Functor/Core.agda
04:11:44 <elliott> shachaf: I... don't want to use that.
04:11:52 <kmc> that is a really pervasive bit of cargo cult security
04:11:54 <shachaf> elliott: Good thinking.
04:12:02 <kmc> it took me many years to realize how wrong it is
04:12:13 <elliott> how do i type the fancy l
04:12:14 <elliott> for levels
04:12:46 <monqy> "\ell"
04:13:05 <monqy> i forget how emacs/agda-mode does its thing
04:14:44 <shachaf> ℓ?
04:14:50 <shachaf> What does that mean?
04:15:42 <elliott> yeah that one
04:15:45 <elliott> oh \ell works
04:15:54 <elliott> shachaf: does cabal install agda get me the stdlib
04:15:57 <elliott> or do i have to do my own stuff
04:16:13 <shachaf> elliott: I think it works?
04:16:17 <shachaf> elliott: "try it out"
04:16:27 <shachaf> elliott: Also you didn't answer my question.
04:17:14 <elliott> what
04:17:18 <shachaf> what
04:18:31 <zzo38> Is there any 3D modeling that you can write x^2+y^2+z^2=25 and it will work?
04:19:28 <elliott> what's the composition law for functors called
04:20:56 <zzo38> I don't know if it is called anything other than a composition law for functors.
04:21:46 <elliott> shachaf: It doesn't find the stdlib.
04:23:21 <shachaf> elliott: Try apt-get install agda
04:23:30 <shachaf> apt-get install agda-stdlib
04:24:02 <elliott> apt-get command not found
04:24:06 <elliott> -- my computer dot com
04:24:12 <zzo38> The "wgpluck" command in Csound seem to be good quality of plucked string sounds.
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04:41:00 <zzo38> Do you have reverb files for Stonehenge?
04:52:46 <ion> Are there samples of wgpluck somewhere?
04:54:09 <zzo38> ion: I don't know of any, but if you have Csound you can use the examples in http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/wgpluck.html
04:54:22 <zzo38> You can use it with real-time or you can send output to a sound file if you want that.
04:55:30 <zzo38> I also find using "wguide1" with PhISEM opcodes makes a nice sound too (although not a plucked string sound)
04:59:13 <ion> alright
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05:01:35 <zzo38> ion: Do you need samples of Csound?
05:01:58 <ion> I already installed it and listened to them.
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05:26:24 <shachaf> score
05:26:26 <shachaf> -------
05:26:29 <shachaf> elliott
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06:21:08 <kmc> http://whyismarko.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/food-nativity.jpg
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06:23:51 <elliott> kmc: More like #messoteric, right?
06:24:12 <shachaf> elliott: what was monqy doing in #haskell
06:24:24 <elliott> @ask monqy <shachaf> elliott: what was monqy doing in #haskell
06:24:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
06:24:47 <shachaf> :'(
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06:38:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | /topic: the new way to chat | How arre you? | *-r.
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07:06:02 -!- elliott has set topic: MEGA EXTRA SUPER FOREVER | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:06:14 -!- elliott has set topic: qqqqq | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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07:22:51 <ion> I disagree with your chosen amount of Qs.
07:23:23 -!- shachaf has set topic: @ask monqy http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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07:24:47 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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07:28:24 <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:28:39 <fizzie> I'm just not getting usd to this.
07:29:13 <olsner> Getting used to being a train may be difficult, but with the right attitude you can!
07:29:43 <fizzie> At least it gives me consolation that the connection is terribly laggy.
07:29:46 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://cоdu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:29:47 <olsner> getting USD for being a train may be even more difficult
07:30:32 <fizzie> olsner: I don't know, you could rent yourself out to someone who needs a train for $$$ars.
07:30:56 <olsner> as I understand it, the money doesn't go to the train but usually to the owner of the train
07:31:25 <fizzie> So... that would conventionally be my wife, I guess?
07:32:05 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:32:16 <HackEgo> 861) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:32:29 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trains_owned_by_wifes
07:32:35 <elliott> "wives", olsner
07:33:12 <olsner> indeed
07:33:13 <fizzie> Oh, the train is also going to Turku, city of oklopol. I think.
07:33:28 <elliott> are you going to meet oklopol
07:34:26 <fizzie> I hope not, I'm not sure I'm prepared for that.
07:34:39 <elliott> how can you pass up the opportunity
07:34:43 <fizzie> I will be around what I think is his university, though.
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07:37:50 <fizzie> Oh no, this is stupid. I have this bluetooth headset that can be used as a regular headset with a cable, but when the battery is completely out (like now) it won't switch to the regular-headset mode.
07:38:18 <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
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07:38:57 <elliott> oklofok: ping
07:38:58 <elliott> oklofok: ping ping ping
07:39:01 <elliott> oklofok: emergency
07:39:04 <elliott> oklofok: you have to meet fizzie
07:39:10 <elliott> oklofok: travel to nearest train station
07:39:23 <elliott> oh right i wanted to addquote that
07:39:26 <fizzie> Look for a fizzie-shaped train?
07:39:31 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
07:39:34 <HackEgo> 862) <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
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07:50:37 <Sgeo|web> "SCP-411 speaks an as-yet-unknown dialect of English that has significant grammatical and vocabulary deviations from Modern English. Individuals who are to be given training in this language will benefit from a background in Spanish, Mandarin and/or Cantonese, ██████ and Haskell."
07:50:57 <Bike> that entry made me chuckle
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07:51:41 <Sgeo|web> Oh, I wasn't able to do the thing where I say monqy elliott
07:51:58 <monqy> i forgive you
07:53:12 <coppro> damn, I should have beat you :P
07:54:08 <coppro> `quote
07:54:11 <HackEgo> 158) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
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08:01:59 <ion> fizzie: mosh
08:06:25 <fizzie> ion: Bish bosh.
08:11:17 <coppro> `quote
08:11:28 <HackEgo> 488) <Phantom_Hoover> On further reflection, I think I did manage to miss winter and spring altogether. <Phantom_Hoover> This does explain the goblin siege I had in autumn.
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08:18:13 <elliott> ion: I think you are insufficiently agile.
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10:02:43 <Sgeo|MOG11111> elliott: Phantom_Hoover monqy
10:02:47 <Sgeo|MOG11111> Fiora:
10:02:53 <elliott> mog11111
10:03:24 <monqy> MOG11111, excuse you
10:04:31 <elliott> im sorry
10:05:12 <Sgeo|MOG11111> Well, I didn't think a nick of Sgeo|MOG!!!!! would work
10:05:18 <shachaf> oh no it's monqy
10:05:20 <shachaf> hi monqy
10:05:31 <monqy> hi shachaf
10:05:35 <shachaf> monqy: have you ever read the ghc inliner
10:05:53 <shachaf> monqy: do you know what main:Foo.Foo{v reR} means!
10:06:40 <shachaf> Oh, I finally got my verbose output!
10:07:02 <shachaf> Considering inlining: main:Foo.Foo{v reR} [gid[DataConWrapper]] arg infos [] uf arity 0 interesting continuation ArgCtxt False some_benefit False is exp: True is work-free: True guidance ALWAYS_IF(unsat_ok=True,boring_ok=True) ANSWER = YES
10:07:54 <monqy> ok
10:09:05 <shachaf> monqy: yes or no
10:09:21 <shachaf> if you were ghc you would say ANSWER = YES
10:09:25 <shachaf> or ANSWER = NO
10:09:58 <monqy> i dddont know
10:17:11 <ion> Also if you’re prolog.
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10:35:22 -!- oklopol has changed nick to xD.
10:35:49 <xD> everything is so funny i decided this will save my time
10:35:52 -!- xD has changed nick to Guest7699.
10:35:59 <Guest7699> krhm
10:36:06 <Guest7699> what :D
10:36:08 -!- Guest7699 has changed nick to oklopol.
10:36:10 <elliott> Guest7699: fizzie is coming to yr town
10:36:13 <elliott> go meet him
10:36:30 <oklopol> [12:35:10] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
10:36:31 <oklopol> -
10:36:31 <oklopol> [12:35:10] -NickServ- You have 30 seconds to identify to your nickname before it is changed.
10:36:31 <oklopol> -
10:36:31 <oklopol> [12:35:39] -NickServ- You failed to identify in time for the nickname Xd
10:36:32 <oklopol> oh.
10:37:05 <oklopol> he is?
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10:37:37 <elliott> yes
10:37:40 <elliott> he may even be there right now
10:37:41 <atriq> Yes indeed
10:38:03 <elliott> oklopol: apparently he's going to your university-abouts
10:38:03 <oklopol> fizzie: where should we meet?
10:38:08 <oklopol> yeah i read
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10:39:58 <atriq> I'm kind of bored of being atriq
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10:45:28 <Taneb> Aaargh
10:50:40 <shachaf> `whoami
10:50:44 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
10:50:44 -!- ais523 has quit.
10:50:47 <shachaf> `id -a
10:50:51 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=873786
10:50:54 <shachaf> `id -a
10:51:00 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=787581
10:51:02 <shachaf> Pft. Why can't we be root?
10:51:43 <Deewiant> `id -G
10:51:46 <HackEgo> 736514
10:52:03 <Deewiant> `id -Z
10:52:06 <HackEgo> id: --context (-Z) works only on an SELinux-enabled kernel
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11:15:29 <atriq> How is the topic link doing that
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11:16:28 <Deewiant> Doing what
11:16:48 <Taneb> If I click it and say open in browser, it goes to http://xn--cdu-sed.org/logs/_esoteric/
11:17:18 <Deewiant> The 'o' is cyrillic
11:17:25 <Deewiant> U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O
11:17:32 <Taneb> Wow, crazy
11:18:09 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://cоdu.org/lоgs/_еsоtеric/.
11:18:26 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://соdu.оrg/lоgs/_еsоtеric/.
11:20:46 -!- elliott has set topic: http codu logs esoteric.
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11:24:54 <Jafet> xanadu-sed.org
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12:06:39 <elliott> ais523: any idea what's up with http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=OISC&curid=1012&diff=34930&oldid=33316?
12:07:08 <elliott> not sure the link actually is relevant -- I can't tell what it's on about and certainly it is in the wrong section -- but the commentless removal is a bit odd
12:08:26 <Deewiant> The link talks about OISCs
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12:15:43 <fizzie> What is this about meeting people. :/
12:16:04 <fizzie> I am at the ICT building, I think I'll be mostly in hiding.
12:17:06 <elliott> oklopol: fizzie is at the ICT building
12:17:08 <elliott> go meet him
12:17:43 <fizzie> "Seppo Pulkkinen, Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Turku" is this guy from your guys?
12:17:53 <fizzie> He's talking about something.
12:18:39 <fizzie> I'll be here in this thing until 18 and my train away leaves Kupittaa at 19, so there.
12:19:15 <elliott> oklopol: THERE'S NOT MUCH TIME
12:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott did you do that thing
12:22:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I AM BUSY ORGANISING A MEETING OF FINNS
12:22:37 <Phantom_Hoover> you can run worldgen in the background while doing that!
12:23:25 <elliott> Without fully devoting my attention to it????
12:23:27 <elliott> That would be sloppy
12:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it's worldgen man, you just watch 3 numbers increment at an ever-slower rate
12:24:55 <elliott> This is why you are hopeless Phantom_Hoover
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12:38:26 <Sgeo|MOG11111> What is sleep?
12:39:04 <elliott> what is MOG11111
12:39:38 <c00kiemon5ter> sleep is that time of the day when people don't pay attention as I break into their kitchens looking steal'em cookies
12:40:21 <monqy> yes
12:42:08 <nortti> sleep is what happens when you have too much blood in your caffeine circulation
12:42:31 <monqy> that's kinda gross nortti
12:42:46 <nortti> in what way?
12:43:07 <monqy> blood in my caffeine??gross
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12:52:35 <Taneb> Just caused some nostalgia
12:52:44 <monqy> hi
12:54:34 <nortti> how?
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12:56:14 <Taneb> Reminded a couple of people of something they were planning to make years ago
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13:43:21 <oklopol> fizzie: seppo works in the same tiny building as me
13:43:26 <oklopol> i've never talked to him
13:43:45 <oklopol> waaaait
13:43:48 <oklopol> different seppo :D
13:44:24 <oklopol> oh okay
13:44:26 <oklopol> same seppo
13:47:13 <elliott> oklopol: go go go
13:47:22 <elliott> you have to get to the ICT building!!!
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13:47:42 <nooga> blorgh
13:47:48 <oklopol> maybe next time
13:48:51 <nooga> where's the topic?
13:49:00 <elliott> oklopol: wtf
13:49:08 <elliott> oklopol: you are depriving fizzie of a once-in-a-lifetime experience to meet oklopol!!
13:49:16 <elliott> and also: the first #esoteric meeting ever
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13:50:23 <fizzie> This Seppo is talking about "Optimization Algorithms for Large-Scale and Robust Dimensionality Reduction" soon.
13:50:54 <fizzie> I think it's going to involve numbers.
13:51:32 <elliott> oklopol: RUN
13:51:50 <fizzie> RUN AWAY
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14:01:51 <elliott> ais523: you have to convince oklopol to travel a short distance to see fizzie, right now
14:04:15 <fizzie> And fizzie to not run away and hide from the impending oklopol.
14:05:47 <elliott> oklopol: in fact
14:05:57 <elliott> oklopol: i'll pay you 30 pounds gbp to go do it
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14:07:17 <oklopol> :D
14:07:48 <oklopol> sorry i have works to do :(
14:15:21 <arcatan> elliott seems to be passionate about this
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14:17:30 <elliott> arcatan: it is of great theological importance
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15:46:40 <Taneb> It's quiet here
15:48:57 <elliott> gu
15:48:59 <elliott> hi
15:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> hi
15:50:36 <ais523_> hi
15:50:44 <ais523_> remember oracle versus google?
15:51:03 <ais523_> I, umm, may have paraphrased the spec for rangeCheck and set it as an exercise for a bunch of first years
15:52:34 <ais523_> around half of them got it exactly on spec, which is less than I expected
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16:26:57 <oklofok> so i didn't meet FireFly
16:26:58 <oklofok> erm
16:27:01 <oklofok> fizzie:
16:27:03 <oklofok> erm
16:27:06 <oklofok> fizzie
16:27:16 <oklofok> but i met seppo on his way back from the thingie
16:28:20 <Gregor> Oh seppo. And the thingie. Ha ha ha, I'm participating.
16:35:04 <ais523_> what thingie?
16:42:56 <ais523_> suggested type for an esolang: int™
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16:58:55 <fizzie> oklofok: It's all right, I kind of had to go eat with the Hatutus folks.
16:59:15 <oklofok> what's hatututs
16:59:17 <oklofok> hatutus
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16:59:18 <fizzie> Though now my 19:06 train has been delayed to 19:24.
16:59:30 <fizzie> Pattern recognition research society.
16:59:43 <fizzie> Hahmontunnistustutkimuksen seura.
17:00:04 <fizzie> It was our twice-a-year meeting/seminar that I was here for.
17:01:40 -!- truckngear06 has joined.
17:01:59 <truckngear06> whats up
17:02:16 <ais523_> hmm
17:02:19 <ais523_> do I recognise you?
17:02:26 <truckngear06> no sir
17:02:32 <ais523_> `welcome truckngear06
17:02:36 <HackEgo> truckngear06: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:02:36 <truckngear06> ty
17:02:38 <truckngear06> can u see my ip ?
17:02:42 <ais523_> wow, HackEgo was fast that time
17:02:54 <ais523_> and yes,, or possibly
17:03:02 <truckngear06> just wondering
17:03:43 <ais523_> connecting anywhere on the internet sends your IP to the site you connect to
17:04:26 <truckngear06> yup
17:05:14 <truckngear06> who plays black ops 2
17:05:19 <truckngear06> xbox 360
17:06:30 <oklofok> fizzie: do you know seppo?
17:07:02 <fizzie> oklofok: No, I just listened to his talk.
17:07:14 <truckngear06> cya gonna play some black ops
17:07:15 <oklofok> was it awesome
17:07:44 <fizzie> ais523_: Hey, your computer may be broadcasting an IP address.
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17:10:58 <fizzie> oklofok: I... suppose? It was about doing this one thing faster than other people do that thing. He claimed he's the only one from "his people" dabbling with anything pattern-recognition related.
17:11:18 <oklofok> what's that thing
17:11:18 <Phantom_Hoover> is he the last of his people
17:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> are his people fools with no vision of the future
17:12:32 <fizzie> oklofok: It was the optimization problem related to this maximum-variance based dimensionality reduction method that works well if there's an underlying low-dimensional description for the points of the high-dimensional dataset.
17:13:07 <fizzie> Also there was a thing about doing it well even if the data is a bit noisy and not strictly on the low-dimensional thing.
17:13:15 <oklofok> i see
17:13:49 <fizzie> Based on projecting it onto a thing formed by ridges of the density function of the data set.
17:14:14 <ais523_> hmm, that channel join was weird
17:14:28 <ais523_> we get people like that in #nethack sometimes, mislead by the name
17:14:30 <ais523_> but #esoteric?
17:14:56 <fizzie> Oh no, battery low.
17:15:06 <fizzie> There was electricity just a moment ago.
17:15:23 <fizzie> I suspect this phone is "acting up" occasionally.
17:15:44 <fizzie> Oh well, I'll just wait until the train gets here. ->
17:15:53 <fizzie> Oh, now it's 19:34.
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17:29:12 <kmc> yeah #hackage got some of those too :)
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17:53:35 <fizzie> Bleh. Left 19:49, 43 minutes late. Is this the famed Finnish punctuality? (Okay, there is no such thing.)
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18:11:27 <FreeFull> fizzie: So if you have a set of 4D points
18:11:51 <FreeFull> But the fourth coordinate is just random quantised noise between -0.5 and 0.5
18:11:56 <FreeFull> Is it going to work well?
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18:15:42 <fizzie> FreeFull: Don't ask me, ask Seppo. Maybe it will. That kind of thing *is* one of the common types of toy data; many methods do suppress that sort of thing pretty well.
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18:39:23 <olsner> fizzie: did you meet oklofok?
18:40:38 <fizzie> olsner: I did not.
18:40:58 <fizzie> Such a loss for the advancement of the human race &c.
18:41:48 <oklofok> :'(
18:42:02 <olsner> a day of mourning for all of oklokind
18:45:06 <fizzie> "This is not a national day of mourning in Helsinki, Finland's capital -- these are Finns in their natural state: brooding, private, grimly in touch with no-one but themselves."
18:45:25 <nortti> :D
18:45:44 <nortti> tht sound about right
18:46:43 <fizzie> So started a "60 minutes" (US TV show) segment about tango's popularity in Finland.
18:46:53 <fizzie> It was apparently considered quite rude.
18:47:06 <nortti> strange
18:47:19 <fizzie> The visuals were random clips from Helsinki streets.
18:47:43 <fizzie> Admittedly the adjectives described them quite well.
18:49:23 <arcatan> tango is rude?
18:49:39 <fizzie> No the show was rude.
18:49:47 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure if early morning commuters (especially in bad weather) tend to look all that happy anywhere.
18:49:55 <fizzie> Or at least manywhere.
18:50:03 <olsner> manywhere, nice word
18:50:32 <fizzie> It's like "anywhere" except not meaning quite all the places, just many of them.
18:51:49 <oklofok> not all finns like the antisocial stereotype?
18:51:52 -!- Bike has joined.
18:52:06 <nortti> yes
18:52:11 <oklofok> don't we have like the best one there is
18:52:17 <olsner> hmm, I think 'anywhere' sometimes means something more like 'somewhere' ... feels a bit like universal/existential quantification
18:52:47 <olsner> maybe there should also be a 'fewwhere'
18:53:35 <fizzie> oklofok: As I understood it, the show was just considered taking the thing too far. But I'unno.
18:54:00 <fizzie> "THigh quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e33f00e-a36e-11e1-ab98-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz2E15YAoQo
18:54:06 <fizzie> What.
18:54:17 <olsner> thigh quality!
18:54:22 <fizzie> You stupid piece of stupidest stupidity.
18:54:38 <fizzie> I hadn't highlighted the initial "T" so I typed it myself.
18:54:48 <oklofok> i don't get it, it's not even racist because most finns are white
18:56:20 <oklofok> also do i need to register
18:56:31 <fizzie> Well, feel free to peruse the link, if you want to visit a page which programmatically ejaculates stupidity all over a copy-paste.
18:57:14 <fizzie> I didn't need to.
18:57:29 <fizzie> Apparently there is a "8 free articles per month" thing.
18:57:48 <fizzie> So be careful about wasting one of your valuable free articles for *that*.
18:58:16 <fizzie> "The report goes on to say that the prescriptive tango dance sessions, with their set times when men can ask women to dance or the other way around, are perfect for shy Finns and that the lessons and dances give them a “licence to touch” one another."
18:58:28 <fizzie> There you go, that's what I wanted to paste.
18:58:53 <fizzie> I pasted it ALL OVER. All over the Internet. It's probably in dozens of places now.
18:59:05 <fizzie> How do you like that, FT?
19:00:29 <fizzie> This train, it is exactly an hour late.
19:01:24 <fizzie> The next TurkufHelsinki train was supposed to leave an hour after this one, I wonder if it's right behind there.
19:01:34 <fizzie> TurkufHelsinki. Yes.
19:03:11 <oklofok> yes.
19:03:47 <oklofok> also 8 whole articles? that's huge
19:13:21 -!- soundnfury has joined.
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19:15:24 <AnotherTest> Hello
19:15:28 <nortti> hi
19:15:38 <AnotherTest> No more topic :(
19:15:51 -!- nortti has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :(.
19:15:59 <fizzie> Maybe it's just invisible.
19:16:06 <fizzie> Oh, now it's not.
19:16:17 <AnotherTest> Yay! I'm in the topic.
19:16:27 <olsner> but there is no link to the logs now!
19:17:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :( | No more logs :(.
19:18:14 -!- nortti has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :( | No more logs :( | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:18:27 -!- monqy has joined.
19:18:35 -!- olsner has set topic: No more :(.
19:18:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail.
19:19:04 <nortti> :D
19:20:30 <kmc> gobble gobble
19:20:33 <nortti> how did you get so legit url?
19:20:40 <Gregor> shadyurl.com
19:20:57 <nortti> ah
19:23:16 <Gregor> ... two people in the cubes next to me are arguing about using oil vs butter in brownies X_X
19:24:07 <olsner> if brownies is similar to what I think it is similar to, oil doesn't work
19:25:37 <fizzie> What about oil v. butten in ponies?
19:25:41 <fizzie> Butten.
19:25:46 <fizzie> Butten butten.
19:25:53 <Gregor> fizzie: You sick, sick fuck.
19:26:01 <olsner> derfinertly butten
19:26:13 <Gregor> CLICK THE PONY BUTTON
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20:54:07 <oerjan> <c00kiemon5ter> sleep is that time of the day when people don't pay attention as I break into their kitchens looking steal'em cookies <-- i suggest not trying that with me.
20:55:57 <oerjan> <elliott> oklopol: you are depriving fizzie of a once-in-a-lifetime experience to meet oklopol!! <-- has anyone on this channel ever successfully met oklopol?
20:56:37 <fizzie> I think oklofok has.
20:56:54 <oerjan> fellow clones don't count, fizzie
20:57:33 <oerjan> <elliott> and also: the first #esoteric meeting ever <-- oh.
20:57:40 <olsner> maybe we should all go visit oklopol at the same time some time
20:57:51 * c00kiemon5ter om nom ? :(
20:58:01 <olsner> ... and get murdered by his 15 clones
20:58:52 <oerjan> c00kiemon5ter: (1) i don't sleep at sane times (2) i have no cookies afaik. (although there is milk chocolate.)
20:59:09 <fizzie> I've technically met some #esoteric people; mooz, ineiros, and sort of unidirectionally Deewiant in that he's seen me several times but I still don't know what he looks like.
20:59:14 <oerjan> (1)(*) except by accident
20:59:47 <olsner> if you count "technically", maybe you'd have to count IRC and that's boring
21:01:00 <fizzie> The first two are "technically" in the "#esoteric people" aspect (mooz hasn't been here in a long time, ineiros is mute) while the last is "technically" in the "meet" aspect.
21:01:56 <oerjan> i must have met [[User:Rune]] from the wiki at some time, although this was surely before #esoteric existed.
21:02:01 <fizzie> fungot: Have you met any of the people here?
21:02:01 <fungot> fizzie: later tell sjamaan also, the convention of returning the offset. i normally do that, though
21:02:14 <arcatan> i've met some of the guys here before joining this channel. hmm.
21:02:22 <fizzie> I think shachaf and kmc have met.
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21:02:43 <fizzie> At least it's the sort of "vibe" I've gotten from there.
21:02:51 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
21:02:53 <fizzie> Wink, wink.
21:03:44 <olsner> oh, shachaf and kmc have a vibe? good for them!
21:03:46 <arcatan> "unidirectionally meeting people" is a great term
21:04:28 <fizzie> I suppose it doesn't really count as a "#esoteric meet" unless the meeting happens first on-channel and only later in real life, possibly even with a causal relationship to the on-channel meeting.
21:05:06 <oerjan> fizzie: my chances are truly slim, then.
21:05:24 <fizzie> Since there's a connotation of the channel having brought the people involved together.
21:06:53 <Arc_Koen> well what if they first met irl but it didn't work out and then they met again on the channel and realized how much they shared
21:07:23 <oerjan> very romantic!
21:07:52 <Deewiant> I think I've met arcatan.
21:08:30 <arcatan> yeah, we've met
21:08:53 <arcatan> I've also met Lumpio- and nortti, and unidirectionally met at least atehwa
21:09:03 <shachaf> fizzie: Are you sure you're not thinking of HackEgo?
21:09:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:09:12 -!- boily has joined.
21:09:30 <Lumpio-> 8)
21:09:53 <oerjan> <elliott> arcatan: it is of great theological importance <-- it would provide nearly incontrovertible proof that the people on #esoteric are not just figments of imagination!
21:10:12 <fizzie> Is arcatan some kind of a Finn too? I mean, that's a very suspicious list.
21:10:29 <shachaf> Hm, I've met at least four people in this channel.
21:10:31 <arcatan> the programming kind
21:10:33 <oerjan> fizzie: /whois corroborates that
21:10:47 <shachaf> Not including myself and lambdabot.
21:10:47 <Lumpio-> `? finland
21:10:59 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
21:12:00 <oerjan> /whois corun show up a not-very-finnish looking whowas
21:12:03 <oerjan> *s
21:12:33 <olsner> you don't have to be finnish to drive the bus
21:12:35 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, no one said that sentence has anything to do with the preceding two. Corun drives the bus.
21:12:47 <Lumpio-> Which bus
21:13:01 <oerjan> shachaf: AAAA
21:13:04 <olsner> Lumpio-: the bus that Corun drives
21:13:06 <Lumpio-> The usual interpretation of that would be the Corun drives the bus of Finland (yes, *the* bus)
21:13:10 <oerjan> i was assuming the finnish bus.
21:13:13 <monqy> why would you need multiple buses for a country with only two people
21:13:24 <monqy> silly question.........................
21:13:33 <olsner> especially when 9 of them are on IRC and don't need bussing around in the first place
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21:15:46 <shachaf> monqy: to get from one end of the country to the other??
21:15:57 <shachaf> monqy: use logic next time ok
21:17:12 <oerjan> <fizzie> oklofok: I... suppose? It was about doing this one thing faster than other people do that thing. He claimed he's the only one from "his people" dabbling with anything pattern-recognition related.
21:17:30 <oerjan> i get this vibe fizzie is becoming more similar to fungot, in that dog/owner sense
21:17:31 <fungot> oerjan: richard stallman, fnord, desolation, and fnord is on the eso forum to demonstrate.
21:17:33 <nooga> pattern recognition
21:17:53 <oerjan> less fnords, i guess
21:17:57 <oerjan> *fewer
21:19:12 <nooga> pattern recognition
21:19:21 <nooga> that's tartan
21:19:46 <oerjan> that's plaid to see
21:20:02 <fizzie> I am not like fungot! The whole idea is ludicrous. That sword alone can't stop.
21:20:03 <fungot> fizzie: ccnum.scm released. http://www.neilvandyke.org/ weblog/". tell me if astyle works on fnord
21:20:38 <oerjan> ...i cannot `addquote a conversation including me, can i?
21:20:43 <oerjan> *may not
21:21:08 <Gregor> Nothing's stopping you, but if you do, you'll be killed and fed to starving children.
21:21:15 <oerjan> ooh
21:21:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:21:21 <Gregor> So all said and done it's a good deed.
21:21:24 -!- boily has joined.
21:21:59 <oerjan> very tempting, then
21:22:25 -!- Gregor has set topic: Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
21:22:43 <nooga> 22:07 < oerjan> very romantic!
21:22:44 <nooga> 22:21 < oerjan> very tempting, then
21:22:46 <kmc> yes shachaf and i have met irl
21:22:49 <nooga> i see a pattern here
21:22:56 <kmc> once at boston python and once at the stripe ctf meetup in sf
21:22:59 <kmc> and maybe another time
21:23:07 <kmc> we are more awkward in person
21:23:09 <oerjan> nooga: is it plaid?
21:23:16 <nooga> very plaid!
21:23:35 <arcatan> hey, does anyone know about a programming language based on minimization? like the µ operator for µ-recursive functions
21:23:57 <nooga> or
21:24:02 <nooga> well plaid, oerjan
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21:30:21 <oerjan> <olsner> hmm, I think 'anywhere' sometimes means something more like 'somewhere' ... feels a bit like universal/existential quantification <-- maybe, but recall that scandinavian languages don't have distinct words for english "some" and "any"
21:31:26 <shachaf> @where any
21:31:27 <lambdabot> I know nothing about any.
21:31:31 <shachaf> @google trebla any all some
21:31:33 <lambdabot> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/any-all-some.html
21:31:33 <lambdabot> Title: Any, For All, Exists
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21:42:01 <oerjan> back to your old atriq
21:42:10 <atriq> Different computer
21:42:15 <atriq> Different settings
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21:42:31 <fizzie> If you order a klein bottle shipped via USPS/UPS/DHL/whatever, will the tracking page say "volume: 0"?
21:42:45 <Ngevd> fizzie, if it's not in a box
21:42:45 <lambdabot> Ngevd: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:42:46 <kmc> if you order helium balloons does it have a negative weight
21:42:59 <Bike> i don't think usps usually ships through the fourth dimension
21:43:18 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
21:43:21 <oerjan_> boo
21:43:22 <fizzie> I don't know if they measure mass or weight. I mean, the do state it in grams.
21:43:22 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
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21:44:28 <fizzie> (By way of context, according to the post office parcel tracking system, what they're delivering to me has a mass of 0.00 kg and a volume of 0 m^3, but I didn't order a massless klein bottle.)
21:44:51 <FireFly> ^rot13 Taneb
21:44:51 <fungot> Gnaro
21:45:07 <oerjan> ^rot13 FireFly
21:45:07 <fungot> SverSyl
21:45:12 <fizzie> ^rot14 Gnarly.
21:45:17 <fizzie> ^rot13 Gnarly.
21:45:18 <fungot> Taneyl.
21:45:23 * shachaf
21:45:37 * ion
21:45:43 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sorry, only dour puns allowed today
21:45:54 <shachaf> ^rot13 ion oerjan monqy
21:45:54 <fungot> vba brewna zbadl
21:46:13 <fizzie> That sounds like an incantation.
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21:46:30 <fizzie> Ia, ia, vba brewna zbadl!
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21:53:42 <oerjan> ^rot13 shub niggurat
21:53:42 <fungot> fuho avttheng
21:53:57 <oerjan> ^rot13 shub niggurath
21:53:57 <fungot> fuho avtthengu
21:54:05 <shachaf> ^rot13 fizzie fungot
21:54:06 <fungot> svmmvr shatbg
21:54:18 <shachaf> ^rot13 olsner oklofok oklopol
21:54:19 <fungot> byfare bxybsbx bxybcby
21:54:20 <Taneb> Summer shitbag?
21:56:30 <fizzie> fungot: Did you hear that?
21:56:30 <fungot> fizzie: still had the older version) somewhere else. what unclear in that? :)
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21:58:51 <shachaf> ^rot13 ehird
21:58:52 <fungot> ruveq
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22:00:13 <nys> byfare
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22:24:04 <nooodl> ^rot13 shachaf
22:24:05 <fungot> funpuns
22:24:17 <olsner> oerjan: nånstans, varsomhelst, överallt?
22:24:29 <olsner> not as systematic as X-where, but whatever
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22:27:54 <oerjan> olsner: anywhere can also be translated as nånstans in some uses
22:30:14 <olsner> that's what I was referring to
22:30:28 <shachaf> kmc: Would that Hotspot trick help for something like GHC's GC, where it does a comparison and conditional jump on every allocation?
22:30:37 <oerjan> some = nån, any = nån or vilkensomhelst, depending on meaning (modulo actual swedish spelling)
22:30:43 <shachaf> I suppose the overhead of a page fault is too high for how often it needs to GC.
22:30:48 <kmc> shachaf: maybe
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22:31:12 <kmc> you might use it for cheap checkpoints in allocation-free loops
22:31:18 <oerjan> nooodl: ONLY DOUR PUNS, I SAID
22:31:18 <kmc> but ezyang has a different clever solution
22:31:21 <kmc> that i think is implemented
22:31:48 <shachaf> What's that solution?
22:31:51 <nooodl> what is dour
22:32:31 <olsner> oerjan: säg ett datum, vilket som helst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QXL-o8DQM4)
22:32:41 <oerjan> nooodl: almost the opposite of fun
22:32:42 <kmc> you compile your loops with whatever check, and then you copy that page of code and make another page which is exactly the same except that the checks are replaced by NOPs
22:33:00 <oerjan> olsner: um "datum" isn't a common norwegian word, please clarify
22:33:00 <fizzie> oerjan has a dour odour.
22:33:01 <kmc> then when another thread wants to make your thread stop at a checkpoint, it masks the appropriate bit in the instruction pointer
22:33:47 <olsner> oerjan: date
22:33:59 <oerjan> 3 december *ducks*
22:34:05 <olsner> i.e. calendar date, not the fruit or the activity
22:34:32 <Arc_Koen> the fruit is spelt date?
22:34:41 <olsner> I think so
22:34:48 <oerjan> yes
22:35:20 <fizzie> A date with a date.
22:35:50 <fizzie> (SO MANY MEANINGS!)
22:36:26 <olsner> a date had a date with a date, but the date forgot the date
22:36:57 <fizzie> But the future refused to change.
22:48:37 <Arc_Koen> so here's a language:
22:48:47 <Arc_Koen> each program is a pair (n, p)
22:49:05 <Arc_Koen> where n is a natural number
22:50:12 <Arc_Koen> and p a program in befunge-93, except with unbounded playfield (instructions p and g have access to an infinite grid)
22:51:18 <Arc_Koen> well numbers on the befunge stack are bounded so let's say that it's an infinity of bound * bound squares, and p and g can only affect cells in the square the ip currently is in, or something
22:51:36 <Arc_Koen> so running the program (n, p) is similar to running p as befunge
22:51:55 <Arc_Koen> except that every instruction goes along with an accumulator
22:52:14 <Arc_Koen> and if ever one instruction's accumulator goes higher than n execution halts
22:52:32 <Arc_Koen> prove tc (you have two hours)
22:53:49 <coppro> may the nonzero subset of the field be unbounded? May it be aperiodic?
22:53:56 <oerjan> um is the accumulator tied to the spot in the playfield?
22:54:47 <coppro> if aperiodic, it's quite trivial
22:55:11 <oerjan> i don't think you need that. finite initial setup should be sufficient.
22:55:49 <Arc_Koen> not sure I understand your questions
22:56:01 <Arc_Koen> idea is playfield is infinite and each cell has an accumulator
22:56:10 <oerjan> right, each cell.
22:56:23 <oerjan> but is the initial program infinite?
22:56:27 <Arc_Koen> nope
22:56:37 <Arc_Koen> but you get p and g
22:57:08 <oerjan> well i think you can do a turing machine that copies itself in some direction each step
22:57:14 <Arc_Koen> that's the idea
22:57:17 <coppro> what if n = 1
22:57:28 <oerjan> you need a big n, obviously
22:57:34 <Arc_Koen> if n = 1 then creating a new instruction costs you an instruction
22:57:49 <coppro> oh, n isn't provided
22:57:49 <coppro> ok
22:58:05 <coppro> yeah, this seems doable
22:58:44 <Arc_Koen> also: is there some constant N such that the subset of pairs (N, p) is also turing-complete?
22:59:00 <oerjan> yes i think so
22:59:08 <Arc_Koen> that would force you to write quining befunge programs :)
22:59:21 <oerjan> ...you have to do that anyhow
23:00:12 <oerjan> or perhaps a cellular automaton is more intuitive than a TM here
23:00:46 <Arc_Koen> ("that" was the whole thing, not the bound on n
23:00:48 <oerjan> (a 1d one)
23:01:06 <oerjan> which "that"?
23:01:20 <oerjan> oh right
23:01:44 <coppro> I'd just use i
23:02:15 <oerjan> well i would then represent each CA cell as a subsquare of the befunge program that takes care of copying itself to the next level and calculating the right CA value to put there
23:06:25 <fizzie> Can you write anything into an empty square, though?
23:06:39 <oerjan> isn't that what p does?
23:06:42 <fizzie> The p doing the writing would have to be in that square.
23:06:46 <fizzie> Not cell, square.
23:07:32 <oerjan> not _that_ big squares, smaller than the relative wrapping
23:07:37 <fizzie> "an infinity of bound * bound squares, and p -- can only affect cells in the square the ip currently is in" kind of square.
23:08:11 <oerjan> yes, but the squares to represent cells don't have to be anywhere near as large as bound * bound, if bound is something like 2^23
23:08:34 <fizzie> Yes, but wouldn't you eventually have to get out of the wrapping-square?
23:08:47 <fizzie> If the cells in it wear out and all.
23:08:47 <oerjan> oh. i was assuming the bound*bound squares were centered on the current ip
23:09:10 <fizzie> That's not what it sounds like, but I guess it could be.
23:09:12 <oerjan> so that they overlap.
23:09:23 <oerjan> otherwise there could be a problem yeah
23:10:14 <oerjan> i guess what Arc_Koen actually said doesn't imply overlapping
23:10:28 <fizzie> It *sounds* like there's a fixed grid of squares, but that might be just me.
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23:11:25 <oerjan> i don't know befunge well enough to know whether there is an instruction that could get around that
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23:12:19 <oerjan> you could save data on the stack instead of moving across the boundary directly, but you would still need some way to get a minimal program into a non-used square
23:12:52 <oerjan> to do the copying from the stack to a nearly empty square
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23:14:17 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge-93 seems to have nothing other than p
23:14:21 <fizzie> I don't think 93 has anything that can write to playfield except p.
23:14:39 <fizzie> 98 also has s which might work though would be quite awkward to use.
23:15:19 <fizzie> It writes a character to pos+delta, but I can't recall if it the skips that character or not.
23:15:41 <fizzie> Of course it'd wrap so maybe it's not a problem even if it skips it.
23:15:53 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: so i think we are going to need the p restricting squares to be overlapping for this to work
23:15:57 <fizzie> Moot point, of course, since it wasn't 98.
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23:31:20 <zzo38> I have now my own concept, another way to group pokemons, where each pokemon also belongs to a "prefix group". A prefix group is identified by zero, one, or two letters. All official pokemons belong to the Nintendo prefix group, identified by no letters. There is a partial order on prefix groups, with Nintendo being initial.
23:32:02 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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23:33:36 <zzo38> It is designed to be usable with battle simulators supporting custom pokemon species.
23:35:07 <shachaf> Why zero, one, or two?
23:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> because 3 would just be madness
23:35:38 <shachaf> > 26^2 + 26^2
23:35:39 <lambdabot> 1352
23:35:41 <zzo38> So that the ID could fit in a six character field. It could be extended to three letters if necessary.
23:35:49 <shachaf> > 26^2 + 26^1 + 26^0
23:35:50 <lambdabot> 703
23:36:18 <shachaf> 703 is hardly better than 1.
23:36:35 <zzo38> Possibly even four or five if the number of species per those groups is very small.
23:36:58 <shachaf> "zzo" would make a good prefix group.
23:37:09 <shachaf> Where does your nick come from, anyway?
23:37:28 <zzo38> I don't actually know for sure.
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23:43:20 <zzo38> What is the best way to represent the partial ordering in the computer?
23:44:32 <shachaf> A long English document?
23:45:23 <zzo38> I wanted to do something in a ASCII text file which is both readable by people and processable by computer.
23:45:44 <zzo38> And in a packed form that does not necessarily require every one.
23:46:04 <zzo38> As well as being easy to correct.
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00:00:01 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh, right. otherwise a square that was initially empty can never be written to from out, but if the ip enters a square that's empty it will exit without performing any writing...
00:02:48 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well partial orders over a finite set are basically trees
00:03:02 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:04:06 <oerjan> no they are not.
00:04:15 <Arc_Koen> oh?
00:04:25 <oerjan> .
00:04:29 <oerjan> / \
00:04:35 <oerjan> / \
00:04:38 <Arc_Koen> ohhh
00:04:39 <Arc_Koen> right
00:04:40 <oerjan> .------.
00:04:42 <Arc_Koen> ok ok
00:04:53 <Bike> dags, then
00:05:11 <oerjan> darn miscounted
00:05:30 <Arc_Koen> but that's almost like trees
00:05:33 <Arc_Koen> since it's oriented
00:05:50 <shachaf> .
00:05:52 <shachaf> / \
00:05:53 <shachaf> / \
00:06:04 <Arc_Koen> after all we do talk about "genealogy trees" even though they're not trees either
00:06:23 <Bike> They're not?
00:06:51 <Arc_Koen> well I can be the descendant of two people which are cousins
00:06:55 * oerjan gently teaches Bike about incest
00:07:24 * Arc_Koen didn't even realized there was something wrong with that
00:07:25 * oerjan notes he may have been unusually creepy today
00:07:33 <Fiora> they're directed acyclic graphs, right...?
00:07:47 <oerjan> Fiora: barring time travel hth
00:07:53 * Gregor gently teaches oerjan that we're ALL cousins.
00:08:13 <shachaf> Gregor: I thought we were all brothers and sisters.
00:08:20 <oerjan> kinky
00:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> eew
00:08:30 <Fiora> true... the homestuck family geneology consists entirely of cycles
00:08:40 <shachaf> Did you read that one story by Heinlein?
00:08:43 <Bike> oh, i was confusing dags with possibly cyclic graphs, durr.
00:08:46 <Gregor> The only way you can be the child of two people who are not cousins (and it's just a matter of terminology) is if they're siblings, uncles/aunts/nieces/nephews, or direct linear descendents/ancestors.
00:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i read of it, that's just as good
00:09:07 <Bike> shachaf: he wrote a few about time travel fuckery? you probably mean all you zombies though
00:09:13 <shachaf> Yes.
00:09:21 <shachaf> On the topic of family graphs.
00:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the only one with actual time travel fuckery
00:09:26 <shachaf> Family monoids?
00:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> family rings
00:09:38 <Bike> @google the man who folded himself
00:09:39 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself
00:09:39 <lambdabot> Title: The Man Who Folded Himself - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:09:41 <Bike> also notable
00:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> if only heinlein wasn't a complete arsehole
00:10:07 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I'm pretty sure back to the future is about marty having sex with his mother
00:10:12 <Bike> then we could read his stories about spacetime incest in peace.
00:10:19 <shachaf> What was that other time travel thing he wrote?
00:10:41 <Gregor> By the way, white folk (probably most of you), did you know that you're part neanderthal? It's true!
00:11:04 <Bike> i was thinking of... i forget the title, time enough for love maybe? i think he has sex with his mother, and also twin clones of himself or something
00:11:17 <shachaf> By His Bootstraps is the on I was thinking of there.
00:11:17 <Fiora> is there any racial group that isn't part neanderthal?
00:11:19 <Arc_Koen> all at the same time?
00:11:24 <Gregor> Fiora: African.
00:11:29 <Fiora> ahhhh
00:11:30 <shachaf> Also The Door Into Summer. That was a good one.
00:11:45 <Bike> homo sapiens purity. purge the nonafricans
00:12:17 <Gregor> Well I, for one, find it fascinating, so nyaa.
00:12:27 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: so maybe you can have each line be an ordered list of prefixes
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00:12:49 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: and some "debugger" would tell you if there are redundancies
00:13:27 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK. I can try that.
00:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, um
00:13:44 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not sure whether redundancy is good or bad
00:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't the point at which the human ancestor pool merges at most a few millenia ago
00:14:56 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read _The Door Into Summer_?
00:15:04 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: additionally the 'debugger' could also warn you of "nodes" which are not at the beginning of a line
00:15:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's closer to 200,000 years.
00:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I think everyone has *some* Neanderthal ancestors, Africans just don't have many.
00:15:36 <Arc_Koen> uh, not sure what I meant
00:15:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, uhhhh, not what I'd heard.
00:16:46 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam // one ancestor is as recent as 60,000 years, but no more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve // the other, ~200,000 years.
00:17:02 <Arc_Koen> that's not what they said in stargate
00:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, those are *direct male and female lines*.
00:17:21 <shachaf> Adam and Eve were born 140,000 years apart?
00:17:45 <Arc_Koen> I think in some episode they find a frozen human body that's a hundred million years or so old
00:18:00 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The last real merge of humanity into a single pool was before the latest exodus from Africa (duh), and our intermingling with neanderthals just after it.
00:18:01 <shachaf> Gregor: Please use https: Wikipedia links.
00:18:03 <shachaf> "thanks"
00:18:07 <shachaf> ^rot13 Gregor
00:18:08 <fungot> Tertbe
00:18:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, doesn't have to be a single pool.
00:18:19 <shachaf> ^rot13 Gregory
00:18:20 <fungot> Tertbel
00:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> One migrant can very quickly propagate their ancestry through an isolated population.
00:18:51 <Arc_Koen> shachaf: yeah that's gotta count as statutory rape or something
00:19:30 <shachaf> Hmm, I suppose "born" isn't quite the right word to use there.
00:19:54 <Bike> i thought the last common ancestor thing was at the bottleneck after that explosion in east asia.
00:20:02 <oerjan> <shachaf> Adam and Eve were born 140,000 years apart? <-- basically males tend to spread their genes faster than females, so the direct male lines also die out faster
00:20:05 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The study they did found /no/ neanderthal genomes in modern Africans.
00:20:06 <oerjan> afaiu
00:20:13 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor#MRCA_of_all_living_humans ?
00:20:23 <Gregor> (For the group they studied)
00:20:39 <shachaf> edwardk did that skew binary online LCA thing.
00:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "The identical ancestors point for Homo sapiens has been estimated to between 15,000 and 5,000 years ago."
00:21:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> Gregor: Please use https: Wikipedia links. <-- please don't
00:21:39 <oerjan> (sure i can edit them by hand...)
00:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Neanderthals died out around twice as far back.
00:22:10 <shachaf> oerjan: What's the matter with https:?
00:22:11 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: do you mean males can use the 9-month pause in the spreading somewhere to start spreading elsewhere?
00:22:39 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: SOMETHING LIKE THAT
00:23:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: That statistic is contrary to everything else I have ever read, including in relevant college courses >_>
00:24:21 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm when i tested now it worked fine, i'm still logged in and everything.
00:24:32 <shachaf> https: works great.
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00:24:51 <shachaf> I bet oerjan is just the NSA trying to spy on my Wikipedia readin's.
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00:27:20 <oerjan> Gregor: could be true though, that ancestor can be through mixed male and female lines after all, so not as restricted as "adam" and "eve"
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00:28:37 <oerjan> and because of this, you cannot simply measure it by comparing dna like with the single-line inherited parts
00:29:37 <oerjan> heh, "It is incorrect to assume that the MRCA passed all of his or her genes (or indeed any gene) down to every person alive."
00:30:11 <oerjan> we could have a common ancestor that left no genes at all...
00:31:16 <Fiora> I like the Ship of Theseus mention
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00:32:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: of course at that point you're feeling the urge to do the math
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00:32:34 <oerjan> oh identical ancestors point is something else again
00:33:41 <oerjan> in fact i think we discussed that very concept on the channel a while ago
00:33:51 <oerjan> (without the name)
00:35:03 <Gregor> So, it looks like all the stuff suggesting 15,000-5,000 years is based on computer models of human populations.
00:35:33 <Arc_Koen> they didn't even bother to build a time machine to conduct the experiment?
00:35:35 <Gregor> Whereas the recent (2010) study finding neanderthal genes was, y'know, not models. It was people, and their genes.
00:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you haven't actually addressed the point about common ancestors not necessarily implying common genes.
00:36:20 <Gregor> Right, if there's sufficiently little flow then they can end up sort of flushing the last bits out anyway.
00:36:27 <Gregor> And still having neanderthals in their line.
00:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ...so what're we disagreeing on?
00:37:47 <Gregor> I suppose we're not :)
00:37:59 <Gregor> I just preferred the original interpretation to the possibly-more-accurate one ;)
00:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the accurate version is "you're descended from Neanderthals, but if you're African you might as well not be".
00:40:26 <Gregor> Yeah.
00:46:04 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: What did you mean, note not at the beginning of a line?
00:46:43 <zzo38> Why does the Haskell read function not allow comments?
00:47:30 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: hmmm well imagine if you have a line "2 4 12 24 48" and another line "3 6 12 36"
00:47:39 <Arc_Koen> then the two lines "cross" at 12
00:47:48 <zzo38> O, OK.
00:48:15 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure that's a problem; maybe crossing prefixes should be hilighted or something
00:49:05 <Arc_Koen> because that makes 36 bigger than 2
00:49:56 <Arc_Koen> so when you're for instance looking for "all prefixes bigger than 2" you might want not to scan all the lines, only the lines for which the first element is bigger than 2
00:50:20 <Arc_Koen> sorry I did not mean "cross" I meant "merge"
00:50:22 <oerjan> i think what you want to avoid for redundancy is anything that can be deduced from transitivity. i.e. don't list adjacently any prefixes that have intermediate ones between them
00:50:40 <oerjan> so if you have 2 4 12, then 2 12 would not be allowed.
00:50:52 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what I meant
00:51:04 <oerjan> oh and of course no adjacent pairs should be repeated
00:51:04 <zzo38> Well, perhaps it should still be allowed even though it is redundant, it could still be a warning.
00:51:31 <zzo38> But there is not allowed different ones equal in this context so that would be error.
00:51:34 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not so sure it's such a bad thing - maybe you very much want one prefix to be lower than another, notwithstanding intermediate prefixes
00:52:24 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um that's an automatic consequence, since this is a partial order
00:52:28 <Arc_Koen> it should of course check for cycles and stuff
00:52:29 <zzo38> One idea I have is, every line only lists what is lesser, and some things are deduced from transitivity
00:53:00 <zzo38> I wanted to use Haskell format, but the read function doesn't allow comments, so I won't use that.
00:53:06 <oerjan> you only need to list things that are "closest neighbors"
00:53:11 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I'm talking about "maintainability" of the partial order description file :)
00:53:25 <oerjan> well ok
00:54:14 <zzo38> Well, this file will contain more than just the partial order.
00:56:51 <oerjan> although i am also thinking you might want to have groupings. for example if you have 1 4, 1 5, 1 6, 2 4, 2 5, 2 6, 3 4, 3 5, 3 6 then it would be shorter to say that all of 1 2 and 3 are smaller than all of 4 5 and 6 if you can name groups.
00:58:01 <oerjan> hm this is almost essentially the same problem as how to design a more flexible way of giving haskell operator precedences
00:58:23 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh you only make pairs?
00:58:30 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking you could make whole lines
00:58:41 <Arc_Koen> ie compress 1 2, 2 3, 3 4 as 1 2 3 4
00:58:43 <zzo38> oerjan: I really think the operator precedences ought to be surreal numbers.
00:58:52 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: that was just in that example, which had no lines to make
00:59:49 <Arc_Koen> maybe you could make 1 2 3 an equivalency class if they share the same properties
00:59:52 <oerjan> zzo38: ...but those are totally ordered, which may be unsuitable... oh well right, there are other issues with operators.
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01:00:08 <Arc_Koen> and maybe you could give a scope to that class if they don't have all their properties in common
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01:02:40 <zzo38> I don't know exactly what the file syntax should be, although probably not Haskell because its read function does not parse comments.
01:03:35 <zzo38> But I did think of the idea to make the partial ordering, but if you have a better idea you can specify your ideas too.
01:05:28 <Arc_Koen> what is the ordering be used for anyway?
01:06:25 <zzo38> Well, it is an optional feature (programs using this file are not required to support it), but can be used to define "baby pokemon" according to the definition I used, if you want to use that definition.
01:14:33 <zzo38> Would you like this: this_prefix(lesser_prefixes): "text" url
01:17:04 <zzo38> The URL can be any internet URL, telephone, postal address, or ISBN.
01:17:38 <zzo38> Perhaps also allow Tor domains.
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01:18:24 <zzo38> If the list of lesser prefixes is empty you omit the parentheses; if you include them with nothing in between, it includes a single entry which is the empty (Nintendo) prefix.
01:20:25 <zzo38> The URL and text is recommended to be ASCII, although Unicode is allowed (including Conscripts), however they must be encoded using ASCII format: For URL, encoding using % or punycode. For text, encoded using Haskell string literal syntax.
01:20:45 <oerjan> somehow i'm thinking the other way around would be more logical, with () meaning empty, since it is explicit
01:20:46 <zzo38> Comments have # at front of the line.
01:21:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, maybe...
01:26:12 <zzo38> Still, I am thinking () is a single blank prefix, because the entries separated by commas, and so no comma = 1 entry, which is blank.
01:26:20 <zzo38> That is why I did it that way.
01:30:25 <shachaf> @wn avuncular
01:30:26 <lambdabot> *** "avuncular" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:30:26 <lambdabot> avuncular
01:30:26 <lambdabot> adj 1: resembling a uncle in kindness or indulgence
01:30:26 <lambdabot> 2: being or relating to an uncle
01:32:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Why do you think other way is really more logical?
01:33:28 <Bike> oh hey, i remember that word from anthropology class. are you still looking up MRCA stuff?
01:35:33 <oerjan> zzo38: well i guess it's intuitive from what () means in haskell, like in import lists and tuples.
01:36:23 <zzo38> Well, yes but if it is Haskell we would use square brackets because it is a list.
01:36:43 <oerjan> i guess C tends to use more of () as "use defaults" sometimes
01:36:48 <oerjan> zzo38: not in import lists
01:37:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, yes, in import lists () does mean an empty list, and nothing at all means, it is everything.
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01:39:00 <zzo38> And even if it is Haskell, this isn't an import list anyways.
01:40:21 <oerjan> more like an inheritance list. but haskell has (A a, B a) => for that instead.
01:40:59 <zzo38> No, it isn't an inheritance list either; it is only a partial ordering.
01:41:18 <oerjan> oh well
01:41:38 * oerjan no good argue about not facts
01:41:50 <shachaf> hi oerjan
01:41:58 <oerjan> hi shachaf
01:42:07 <oerjan> you look very avuncular today
01:42:32 <zzo38> Even then, for an inheritance list, omitting it does not mean it inherits everything or meaning it inherits anything which it will not inherit if you do include the list. And with import lists, no () means import everything, which is also different to mine.
01:42:51 <zzo38> So, either way, it doesn't work.
01:45:14 <zzo38> Now you may see what my logic is, although other ideas are still possible, such as something before or after each item, so you explicitly know the empty item.
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02:04:06 <zzo38> The file "interlocks.h" for Csound, is I cannot find a document of it, but I look at the other codes to try to figure it out, but still I don't know what SB and _QQ mean, and some codes also use 0x20 as an interlock value and I don't know what that means either.
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02:11:54 <zzo38> #define MEMDEF(x) x; typedef struct { x object[sizeof(x)<0xFF00?1:-1]; } x##__
02:16:05 <zzo38> Have you used these kind of things in any C codes?
02:19:08 <Lumpio-> How would you even use that
02:21:52 <zzo38> http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/csound5extending.html#AddmodAddSpace
02:22:49 <zzo38> Does that explain it to you?
02:24:26 <Lumpio-> good grief, was this written for the IOCCC?
02:24:33 <Lumpio-> "f-rate streaming pvoc fsig type"
02:24:40 <Lumpio-> I don't think that counts as English
02:25:29 <zzo38> Are you sure? Well, I don't think it was written for the IOCCC.
02:25:47 <Lumpio-> What happens when an array ends up with a -1 size anyways
02:25:55 <zzo38> You get a compiler error.
02:25:57 <Lumpio-> Is that just a hacky and unreadable way to causing a compiler error?
02:26:30 <zzo38> I wouldn't call it unreadable.
02:26:38 <Lumpio-> Also where would you use that macro
02:26:43 <Lumpio-> The "x;" at the start intrigues me
02:27:45 <zzo38> typedef struct { OPDS h; MYFLT*ao; MYFLT*ai; } MEMDEF(mem_avecrev);
02:27:57 <Lumpio-> oh it comes at the end of a typedef
02:29:04 <Lumpio-> I think I once made a piece of software somethign like this thing thing
02:29:25 <Lumpio-> It was graphical though.
02:30:25 <Lumpio-> And I never really bothered coming up with interesting blocks
02:30:40 <Lumpio-> Or modules or whatever you call them
02:31:15 <Lumpio-> I wonder if browsers are fast enough to do it in JavaScript these days
02:31:30 <Lumpio-> I still don't trust JS when it comes to raw math performance
02:32:22 <zzo38> Well, this is Csound; what software were you using?
02:34:18 <Lumpio-> er
02:34:19 <Lumpio-> GCC?
02:34:32 <Lumpio-> I was making my own thing from scratch. This was years ago
02:35:16 <zzo38> What did the program do?
02:35:28 <shachaf> zzo38: How long have you had your nick?
02:35:35 <shachaf> Was it always 38, or a different number once?
02:35:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Always 38
02:36:05 <zzo38> I don't know how long.
02:37:24 <Lumpio-> It made sounds
02:37:41 <Lumpio-> I had basic waveform generators, ADSR, some filters, and MIDI input.
02:37:51 <Lumpio-> Plus a block that takes a chain and clones it for polyphony.
02:38:08 <Lumpio-> It'd be kind of fun to make something like this with a physical interface
02:38:22 <Lumpio-> Something that looks like an analog modular synthesizer but is really just a simulation.
02:38:28 <Lumpio-> But that's probably never going to happen
02:38:47 <shachaf> oerjan: Do I really?
02:40:17 <oerjan> shachaf: just about ready to engage in some nepotism, i'd say
02:40:50 <shachaf> oerjan: Hm, I was leaning toward despotism.
02:40:59 <oerjan> those go well together
03:01:20 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Csound does such things and even more, and probably could even be made to connect to a physical interface.
03:01:39 <shachaf> what about a mental interface
03:02:31 <zzo38> It might be possible too, I don't know
03:03:46 <Sgeo_> Chrome seems to be seriously struggling with the new tab page
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03:33:41 <c00kiemon5ter> ohai o/ something blew up somewhere near and caused a power failure <.<
03:34:00 <shachaf> `welcome c00kiemon5ter
03:34:08 <HackEgo> c00kiemon5ter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:34:20 <c00kiemon5ter> i've had this message before
03:34:31 <oerjan> `WeLcOmE c00kiemon5ter
03:34:36 <HackEgo> C00kIeMoN5TeR: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
03:35:00 <c00kiemon5ter> :)
03:35:35 <oerjan> although i bet elliott still hasn't made the link work
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07:12:11 <oklofok> lament is so positive and full of hope in the 2003 logs
07:12:47 <shachaf> Where is lament?
07:12:52 <shachaf> Oh, 2003
07:13:08 <fizzie> Stuck in 2003, how horrible.
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07:13:36 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, lament is moving forward in time.
07:13:40 <shachaf> But unfortunately so are we.
07:13:46 <shachaf> We'll always be 9 years ahead. :-(
07:14:00 <Sgeo|web> elliott: Fiora
07:14:12 <oklofok> fizzie hasn't changed a bit
07:16:20 <oklofok> <fizzie> what with the topics on this channel, not a surprise (s?he|it) refused.
07:16:20 <fizzie> Maybe I'm stuck in 2003 too.
07:17:17 <oklofok> how old are you and how old is lament?
07:18:18 <fizzie> I wasn't this old then.
07:18:35 <oklofok> i'm looking for a number
07:18:53 <fizzie> 29 now, I think.
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07:20:33 <oklofok> interesting
07:20:57 <fizzie> I don't know about the age of lament(ation).
07:21:29 <fizzie> The lament of their women, as Conan says.
07:21:58 <oklofok> <lament> yay, ten people!
07:22:17 <zzo38> Should Proce have command to specify external input/output?
07:22:19 <oklofok> so weird
07:22:28 <zzo38> Otherwise, it doesn't do much.
07:23:25 <fizzie> Yay, sixty-eight people!
07:23:29 <fizzie> Still including clog!
07:23:40 <fizzie> fungot: You count as people too!
07:23:41 <fungot> fizzie: before the renaissance, western mathematics was pretty shitty on the notation side.
07:24:03 <fizzie> fungot: That's a direct quote, you lazy.
07:24:04 <fungot> fizzie: it is used or something like that wouldn't be equally tricky if you want
07:24:16 <fizzie> That probably isn't. Though you never know.
07:25:59 <oklofok> <oklopol> and i made a 3D bf with the IP being a SPACESHIP (now that's REAL COOL, right?), then i made a lang called metafuck, where you can execute the memory with it's own nulled memory
07:26:01 <oklofok> wait.
07:26:12 <oklofok> am i just sarcastic from the beginning
07:26:49 <oklofok> it seems i've calmed down quite a bit in any case
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08:00:17 <shachaf> /o/
08:00:21 <shachaf> myndzi?
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09:14:35 <shachaf> monqy: omg that takes ages :D
09:14:46 <monqy> hi
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09:17:04 <shachaf> monqy: or maybe its my function :o
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12:47:46 <asiekierka> Long time no see!
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13:03:34 <shachaf> `WELCOME asiekierka
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13:17:52 <fizzie> That's so big.
13:19:35 <fizzie> Also, this monitor developed a full-height vertical line of always-on blue pixels in the 354th column. It is visible also in the monitor startup logo splash and in different graphics modes.
13:20:23 <fizzie> I think it is a fault.
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13:21:51 <asiekierka> >354th column
13:21:53 <asiekierka> ah the accuracy
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13:23:44 <fizzie> It might be the 353th or the 355th column, to be honest.
13:24:14 <asiekierka> Gotta be more accurate br
13:24:15 <asiekierka> o
13:24:18 <asiekierka> Get a magnifying glass
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14:13:33 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: are you using a iMac?
14:14:38 <Arc_Koen> I have a friend with an iMac who developed the same problem (though he did not tell me the number of the column). Later on the monitor developed a second column like that, except purple instead of blue.
14:18:01 <fizzie> No, it's just a monitor.
14:18:09 <fizzie> Some old Fujitsu-Siemens leftover.
14:21:44 <elliott> fizzie: hi
14:22:03 <fizzie> (It's not *my* monitor. I'd be more dismayed if it were.)
14:22:09 <fizzie> Well HELLO THERE.
14:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> so elliott have you started that fortress
14:26:43 <elliott> fizzie has
14:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oh good
14:27:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie can be counted on
14:27:57 <Phantom_Hoover> he's dependable
14:28:15 <elliott> relatedly,
14:28:20 <elliott> fizzie: help me with SSL thanks !
14:28:48 <elliott> tswett: is you?
14:35:12 <tswett> Probably.
14:35:55 <tswett> Yup, that's me.
14:36:33 <elliott> tswett: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=///&curid=1636&diff=34935&oldid=33068 hides a link to a user page which is a no-go by the wiki policies
14:36:44 <tswett> Ah.
14:36:55 <tswett> In that case, no, that's not me.
14:37:08 <elliott> well I wanted to know so I could ask what you wanted done :P
14:37:17 <elliott> would be easy to make a [[Tanner Swett]] stub that linked to the user page, that would suffice
14:37:25 <tswett> I just changed it to "Tanner Swett ([[User:Ihope127]])".
14:37:42 <elliott> don't you mean did :P
14:37:52 <elliott> thanks, anyway
14:37:52 <tswett> Yes, yes.
14:38:02 <elliott> I should really fix it so that links to the /// page actually work again
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14:55:57 <elliott> "The process of constructing instruction tables should be very fascinating. There need be no real danger of it ever becoming a drudge, for any processes that are quite mechanical may be turned over to the machine itself." -- Turing
14:57:03 <Taneb> "I'm hungry." -- Nathan "Taneb" van Doorn
15:02:59 <kmc> elliott: nice
15:03:53 <elliott> via http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/there-need-be-no-real-danger-of-it-ever.html via http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=711, fwiw
15:03:58 <elliott> or are those vias the wrong way around
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15:46:15 <kmc> blind vias and buried vias
15:50:34 <Arc_Koen> if the last character in a /// program si \ what happens?
15:52:05 <elliott> "If the character is \, the character after it (if any) is printed and both characters are removed from the program."
15:52:24 <Arc_Koen> oh right, if any
16:01:16 <elliott> that description is less than clear admittedly (I wrote it)
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17:43:13 <hey> hey
17:43:17 <hey> every one
17:43:29 <hey> For programmer HELLO WORLD :)
17:43:32 -!- hey has changed nick to Guest89142.
17:44:00 <Guest89142> hey
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17:46:44 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhhh kay
17:46:59 -!- Gregor has set topic: hey hey hey everyone for programmer HELLO WORLD! | Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
17:47:10 <Gregor> Ohwait
17:47:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: hey hey hey every one for programmer HELLO WORLD! | Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
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18:46:39 <fizzie> Isn't that missing a hey.
18:46:43 <zzo38> tswett: Did you make Proce esolang? I think there should be the way to specify external input/output?
18:46:50 <fizzie> hey hey hey every one hey for programmer HELLO WORLD.
18:46:51 <zzo38> fizzie: No, it is missing a key.
18:47:08 <Gregor> fizzie: I opted to paraphrase.
18:47:44 <zzo38> And the log URL is missing a percentage sign.
19:05:31 <elliott> @ping
19:05:31 <lambdabot> pong
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19:07:10 <olsner> there was a hey after HELLO WORLD! too
19:08:08 <olsner> hey hey, hello world hey ... has a nice ring to it somehow
19:08:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:08:43 <AnotherTest> hello
19:08:44 <AnotherTest> I can no longer visit the page "///" on the wiki for some reason
19:09:04 <elliott> it has been like this for months because I am lazy and awful
19:09:07 <elliott> you can go to "Slashes" instaed
19:09:09 <elliott> *instead
19:09:10 <AnotherTest> Yes, I know
19:09:10 <elliott> sorry
19:09:13 <elliott> I will fix it sometime
19:09:22 <AnotherTest> but, the language list redirects you to ///
19:13:57 <AnotherTest> well
19:14:03 <AnotherTest> I guess I could change that
19:14:42 <AnotherTest> oh wait, never mind, it does redirect you to Slashes
19:18:14 <tswett> zzo38: I did make Proce, yeah, and there's no one obvious way to do I/O.
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19:19:46 <zzo38> tswett: To me would seem, should have some line indicating the outputs and inputs?
19:20:16 <zzo38> I might try to implement this, as a Csound plugin.
19:46:25 <zzo38> tswett: Do you think that may be reasonable way doing I/O?
19:46:34 <zzo38> Or, do you want a different way?
19:53:50 <zzo38> How do you program Mozilla to finish loading the HTML before attempting to load any CSS, script, images, etc?
19:54:43 <Bike> Finish loading or finish rendering?
19:57:22 <zzo38> Both.
19:57:55 <nortti> well for one you should probably upgrade to firefox or seamonkey but I think that is not what you mean
19:58:00 <Bike> because I"m pretty sure you need CSS and some scripts before it can be rendered properly
19:59:10 <zzo38> I mean the Mozilla engine (so that includes Firefox and so on)
19:59:19 <nortti> gecko?
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19:59:37 <nortti> or are you insane enough to tamper with mariner?
20:01:49 <zzo38> I think it could be rendered not too bad, if you don't use the CSS/scripts; it should display placeholders for images, and if for any reason it cannot finish rendering, it ought to still be required to finish loading first.
20:01:57 <zzo38> And then render as much as possible, before loading the rest.
20:02:30 <shachaf> hi elliott
20:02:47 <elliott> hello
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20:09:18 <oerjan> <shachaf> /o/
20:09:24 <oerjan> hm...
20:09:29 <oerjan> ^celebrate
20:09:29 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:09:40 <oerjan> oh noes
20:09:42 <elliott> myndzi......
20:10:22 <oerjan> looks distinctly idle
20:10:29 <FireFly> poor guys, their heads and arms are all chopped off
20:13:09 <shachaf> myndzi: hi
20:24:04 <fizzie> FireFly: There are also some disembodied hands.
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20:31:18 <zzo38> Can FM synthesis be done with acoustics rather than electronics?
20:32:38 <olsner> isn't that almost how humans speak?
20:32:52 <zzo38> I don't know.
20:33:03 <FreeFull> olsner: Nah
20:33:15 <FreeFull> Human speech is really more of resonance and resonant filtering
20:33:20 <zzo38> But I mean using strings and pipes and so on, not using speech.
20:33:22 <Lumpio-> I guess you could, at least to some extent
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20:34:01 <FreeFull> FM works by taking an oscillation and using it to change the frequency of another oscillation
20:34:11 <FreeFull> Then there is PM which changes the phase instead
20:34:19 <FreeFull> For some reason synthesiser companies call PM FM
20:36:52 <zzo38> So there is, frequency modulation, phase modulation, but is there duty modulation?
20:37:21 <kmc> pulse-width modulation?
20:37:39 <zzo38> The "squarewave" command in my Csound plugin could probably duty modulation too since the duty is an x-rate parameter
20:38:06 <zzo38> kmc: I guess it is like that.
20:38:43 <zzo38> Still with this command, the frequency is also x-rate, so you could make both the frequency and duty to be modulated.
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20:46:30 <fizzie> "FM" as a general term certainly doesn't really require the modulating signal to be an LFO or any sort of oscillator; the pitch effects of human speech (which work by altering the vocal fold oscillation frequency) are arguably rather clear examples of FM. (The bit that generally carries all "content", i.e. the frequency responses of the resonant filters, perhaps not so much.)
20:46:54 <elliott> fizzie: of course the speech recognition researcher jumps to the voice
20:46:58 <elliott> it's all about speech recognition!!
20:47:21 <FreeFull> zzo38: Ever heard of the Commodore 64?
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20:49:15 <kmc> -_-
20:49:21 <oerjan> one pole, washed away
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20:55:39 <fizzie> elliott: It was someone else who brought up the voice topic.
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20:58:33 <elliott> `welcome yorberth_puente
20:58:38 <HackEgo> yorberth_puente: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:00:19 <shachaf> Does anyone ever talk about deployment in here?
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21:00:44 <shachaf> `cat bin/welcome
21:00:47 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
21:01:12 <arcatan> 10 tips for deploying brainfuck in production
21:01:14 <shachaf> `run wc -c bin/welcome
21:01:17 <HackEgo> 135 bin/welcome
21:01:27 <shachaf> `run ls bin
21:01:31 <HackEgo> ​? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ delquotee \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping
21:01:46 <shachaf> `cat bin/\?
21:01:49 <shachaf> `run cat bin/\?
21:01:49 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\?: No such file or directory
21:01:51 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z) \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] || { echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; } \ cat "wisdom/$topic" \
21:01:58 <shachaf> `cat wisdom/welcome
21:02:01 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:02:13 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//'
21:02:16 <HackEgo> sed: no input files
21:02:18 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
21:02:21 <HackEgo> No output.
21:02:39 <shachaf> `welcome fizzie
21:02:42 <HackEgo> fizzie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:03:36 <fizzie> Oh! I thought it was like mediums and channeling and angel healing.
21:05:40 <ion> and angle grinding
21:08:29 <boily> angle grinding?
21:08:41 <fizzie> An acute case of angels.
21:09:14 <fizzie> There was a book at the book store called Angels in My Hair. Plus two further books "from the author of Angels in My Hair".
21:09:50 <fizzie> "In this uplifting autobiography, a modern-day Irish mystic shares her vivid encounters and conversations with the angels and spirits she has known her entire life."
21:10:09 <fizzie> "For as long as she can remember, Lorna Byrne has seen angels. As a young child, she assumed everyone could see the otherworldly beings who always accompanied her. Yet in the eyes of adults, her abnormal behavior was a symptom of mental deficiency. Today, sick and troubled people from around the world are drawn to her for comfort and healing, and even theologians of different faiths seek her ...
21:10:15 <fizzie> ... guidance." ...yeah.
21:10:30 <fizzie> Just think! People dared to think she might have something wrong in the head department.
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21:12:00 <olsner> how despicable
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21:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, otoh this /is/ in ireland
21:26:33 <Arc_Koen> does this mean the other hand is under ireland?
21:28:09 <Phantom_Hoover> probably
21:28:52 <olsner> it could also mean mayonnaise
21:29:27 * oerjan gently fails at sweeping norwegian princess Märtha Louise under the rug
21:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> the pithy observation i was leading up to is that irish culture isn't really one of hardline rationalism
21:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, why, is she nuts
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> her wikipedia doesn't make her sound /that/ much crazier than prince charles
21:33:59 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: that's like "not /that/ much hotter than the sun" or "not /that/ much wetter than the Atlantic Ocean". Or, y'know, "not /that/ much less usable than Haskell"
21:34:08 <soundnfury> (sorry. contractual obligation)
21:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> you're not a very good troll
21:34:14 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:34:26 <oerjan> soundnfury is back?
21:34:34 <soundnfury> yeah, well, you can't fire me. Trolls have an /awesome/ union
21:34:40 <soundnfury> or maybe it's a struct, I'm not sure
21:34:45 <Phantom_Hoover> wait is he the climate change denialist tory
21:34:47 <soundnfury> its members might not overlap
21:34:54 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:34:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
21:34:54 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:34:56 <soundnfury> oerjan: I'm afraid I am
21:35:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_M%C3%A4rtha_Louise_of_Norway#Spirituality_school_controversy anyway
21:35:10 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not a tory! I'm an anarcho-capitalist libertarian
21:35:22 <soundnfury> there /is/ a difference
21:36:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well obviously i already read that
21:36:29 <shachaf> 23E4 STRAIGHTNESS [⏤]
21:36:29 <shachaf> 23E5 FLATNESS [⏥]
21:36:34 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know those?
21:36:34 <oerjan> OKAY
21:36:45 -!- olsner has set topic: Use angels and your own power to create miracles in the logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
21:37:38 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, not helping with the 'no, not that kind of esoteric' problem
21:37:54 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
21:37:57 <olsner> I'm not exactly trying to :)
21:37:59 <soundnfury> meh, we never talk about esolangs /anyway/, what does it matter?
21:38:20 <oerjan> we do too! several times a week, sometimes
21:38:21 <soundnfury> (well, except when we talk about Haskell) <-- seriously guys, it says in my contract that I have to do this.
21:39:01 <oerjan> soundnfury: the contract also says what eventually happens to your soul, i take
21:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> this is not funny now, and i'm not sure it ever was
21:39:12 <oerjan> and is signed in blood
21:39:13 <Taneb> I liked today's Critical Miss
21:39:29 <Phantom_Hoover> being self-aware of one's idiocy does not excuse it
21:40:20 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: I just wanted to make sure everyone could remember who I was. I'll stop now
21:40:31 <oerjan> soundnfury isn't identical to fax? just checking.
21:40:32 <soundnfury> (unless there are any /really good/ opportunities, then I might be unable to resist)
21:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, they're both british
21:40:54 <oerjan> fax is british?
21:41:11 <Phantom_Hoover> well they made clangers references
21:41:12 <soundnfury> I am most assuredly /not/ a low-resolution image transmission system
21:41:24 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, talk about esolangs!
21:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> there may have been other things also
21:41:28 <fizzie> ...
21:41:45 <fizzie> ^echo Hello there.
21:41:45 <fungot> Hello there. Hello there.
21:41:47 <fizzie> ...
21:41:54 <Taneb> fungot, are you okay?
21:41:55 <fungot> Taneb: i took up emacs so i can do
21:41:57 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have something AGAINST esolangs there?
21:41:57 <fungot> fizzie: look to the past....
21:42:05 <fizzie> Spooky.
21:42:06 <soundnfury> Is fungot's "echo" supposed to... well... echo like that?
21:42:06 <fungot> soundnfury: manipulating xml as sexps?) or you can
21:42:08 <oerjan> experience, clearly
21:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oooh you've upset fungot
21:42:13 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's the return of the last
21:42:21 <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings?
21:42:21 <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:42:23 <soundnfury> yay, sexps!
21:42:28 <oerjan> soundnfury: of course, it wouldn't me much of an echo if it only said things _once_, would it?
21:42:47 <soundnfury> ^echo a duck's quack
21:42:47 <fungot> a duck's quack a duck's quack
21:42:55 <soundnfury> well, that disproves /that/ urban legend!
21:43:10 <soundnfury> sorry, I'm very bored and not a little drowsy
21:43:21 <soundnfury> this may lead to minor outbursts of insanity
21:43:42 <oerjan> a drow! kill it!
21:44:00 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think of APL?
21:44:01 <fungot> FireFly: it was the joke. shriram krishnamurthi was saying that the headings should always use the -sign for arrays.... not insert /way/ better alternative.
21:44:19 <FireFly> Oh, okay
21:44:27 <soundnfury> fungot: what do you think of AAPL?
21:44:28 <fungot> soundnfury: upper management latched on to anything with a suxor name...) construct where parts of app pass procedures to compose: ( ( (1 2 3)
21:44:45 <soundnfury> that's almost true!
21:45:09 <FireFly> Well, why wouldn't it be?
21:45:15 <FireFly> fungot always speak the truth
21:45:15 <fungot> FireFly: you can request fnord at a distance 5000 feet.) mention what you managed to install fnord
21:45:42 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:45:43 <fungot> oerjan: i have access to your screen sessions, most of the time
21:45:45 <HackEgo> 863) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:46:10 <FireFly> oerjan: I'd be afraid if I were you
21:46:21 <FireFly> I wouldn't want fungot messing with my screen sessions
21:46:21 <fungot> FireFly: iso media, apple quicktime movie
21:46:22 <oerjan> FireFly: that would be worrisome if i used screen
21:46:45 <soundnfury> heck, the mere fact of using screen would be worrisome
21:47:08 <soundnfury> FireFly: fungot has actually been known to lie, but usually he corrupts the hard disks of anyone who has a log of the event
21:47:08 <fungot> soundnfury: can you see pretty easily what's going on?
21:47:32 <oerjan> soundnfury: DON'T ANSWER THAT
21:47:45 <olsner> ircing #esoteric through screen would give fungot access to your screen session
21:47:45 <fungot> olsner: wait a sec :) just store the symbols and labels)?
21:47:47 <olsner> fsvo access
21:47:54 <GreyKnight> fungot: *I* can pretty easily see what's going on.
21:47:54 <fungot> GreyKnight: it's definitively no toy environment'. it's great
21:48:01 * soundnfury chortles. Fnordingly.
21:48:30 <FireFly> ^style
21:48:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:48:43 <GreyKnight> fungot, don't you want to talk to me?
21:48:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: methinkx it was the fastest back then; the guile people are slow to calculate them lazily. that is
21:49:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:49:10 <FireFly> fungot: back then, huh?
21:49:10 <fungot> FireFly: or is there another way
21:49:47 <GreyKnight> fungot: yeah the guile people *are* slow, aren't they?
21:49:48 <fungot> GreyKnight: if i want to mail a poor teacher a copy?). having to pack values into a monad moot.
21:50:02 <soundnfury> must... resist... temptation... to mock monads...
21:50:27 <arcatan> i mock monads so they're easier to test
21:50:45 <kmc> oh this again
21:51:18 <GreyKnight> fungot: what would happen if I were to pack soundnfury into a monad, do you suppose?
21:51:18 <fungot> GreyKnight: i think it's gotta run at fnord
21:51:34 <FireFly> fungot: yes, obviously it would
21:51:35 <fungot> FireFly: and we want to switch back and forth, but if i was you, i'd leave him. everyone has hated him since. the end.
21:51:45 <FireFly> That's sad
21:51:47 <GreyKnight> :-D
21:53:37 * soundnfury is used to being hated
21:53:41 <soundnfury> but being hated by a bot?
21:53:46 <soundnfury> that's just low
21:54:21 <GreyKnight> fungot: let's talk about Feather. What would be a good name for a Feather interpreter?
21:54:21 <fungot> GreyKnight: let me rephrase! " captive market" anybody?
21:54:36 <GreyKnight> fungot: Perfect, thanks!
21:54:37 <fungot> GreyKnight: care to describe it.
21:55:05 <soundnfury> fungot: what should be the foundation of my next esolang? I'm thinking something involving ed
21:55:06 <fungot> soundnfury: if my macro does not. cmuscheme.el does.
21:55:09 <GreyKnight> well, first I'll implement it in some other language, then retroactively host it in Feather all the way down
21:55:50 <Deewiant> Quill
21:55:53 <soundnfury> fungot: soo... reimplement ed in lisp, or reimplement emacs on top of ed?
21:55:54 <fungot> soundnfury: we disagree about where it was revealed that the health service had a hospital running for several months and come back
21:55:54 <FireFly> fungot wants GreyKnight to describe the inner workings of this Feather interpreter? oh god.
21:55:54 <fungot> FireFly: if you used a proper xml production library that can be used as a teaching language.
21:56:13 <GreyKnight> I'm surprised how relevant he manages to be
21:56:26 <oerjan> GreyKnight: IT'S A TRAP
21:56:35 <GreyKnight> IT'S A TARP
21:56:50 <soundnfury> yeah, but I'm not quite sure what the relevance of the NHS is to my question about ed-macs
21:57:26 <FireFly> fungot: what's your favourite programming paradigm?
21:57:26 <fungot> FireFly: so it's two proof, after which you can ask
21:57:56 <GreyKnight> clearly you should sell ed-macs systems to the hospitals
21:58:47 <soundnfury> GreyKnight: nah, they already have MUMPS
22:06:09 <GreyKnight> ais523: I am actually going to call it captive-market now, just FYI
22:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, you aren't trying to write a feather interpreter are you
22:08:11 <GreyKnight> I can neither confirm nor deny this statement
22:08:41 <Taneb> Hmm
22:09:03 <Taneb> Would the TardisT monad transformer be useful for writing a feather interpreter
22:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> does it take up less memory than it contains
22:10:28 <Taneb> I don't know
22:10:31 <Taneb> Ask me again in the past
22:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i did, don't you remember?
22:12:48 <Taneb> Oh yes
22:13:17 <Taneb> On a different note, I'm listening to songs I don't really like in a language I don't speak a word of
22:13:22 <elliott> do I really see soundnfury saying bullshit about haskell in the logs yet another day
22:13:28 <elliott> can't you just go away forever or something
22:13:40 <FireFly> Taneb: why?
22:13:52 <Taneb> FireFly, TO PERFECT MY ROLEPLAY
22:14:13 * GreyKnight wraps soundnfury in a monad
22:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh no, don't you see? he's saying bullshit about haskell ironically
22:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> that makes him funny and interesting
22:14:35 <elliott> interesting proposition!
22:14:46 <elliott> i disagree and offer instead the proposition that it just makes him even more pointless
22:15:04 <Taneb> @pl soundnfury
22:15:04 <lambdabot> soundnfury
22:15:07 <Taneb> Yep
22:15:12 <Taneb> He's as pointless as they get
22:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> he's being pointless ironically too!
22:15:24 <FireFly> @unpl soundnfury
22:15:25 <lambdabot> soundnfury
22:16:05 -!- monqy has joined.
22:16:43 <Taneb> FireFly, really, it's just noise
22:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> he's like the fixed point of pointlessness
22:17:12 -!- Vorpal has joined.
22:22:09 <soundnfury> You can't Y combinate me!
22:22:18 <monqy> hi
22:22:25 <elliott> please
22:22:29 <elliott> this is embarrassing for everyone
22:23:00 <shachaf> i'm not embarrassed!!!!!!!!!
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm just tiredly shaking my head
22:23:43 <monqy> im smiling. hello soundnfury!!!welcome to esoteric
22:23:49 <soundnfury> hello monqy
22:24:10 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: Reconnecting…).
22:24:16 <soundnfury> I think I annoyed elliott by making a couple of haskell jibes
22:24:24 <soundnfury> but I'm sure he'll get over it eventually
22:24:24 <monqy> pfff that'd annoy anyone
22:24:27 <oerjan> <Taneb> FireFly, TO PERFECT MY ROLEPLAY <-- is this quenya, sindarin, klingon or something else?
22:24:36 <monqy> don't worry about it : )
22:25:02 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
22:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> yes soundnfury, elliott was annoyed to a positive fervour by the sick burns you landed on haskell
22:25:39 -!- jfischoff has joined.
22:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> your attitude to life would make willy loman proud
22:25:58 <elliott> soundnfury: well it's more that you literally say nothing of value and have apparently created your "#esoteric persona" entirely around saying dumb things about haskell that nobody even cares about (because who cares about the opinions of someone who clearly knows nothing about haskell??)
22:25:59 <GreyKnight> (Y pointlessness)
22:26:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:26:25 <elliott> so you live up to your name i.e. told by an idiot, signifying nothing
22:26:28 <monqy> soundnfury: elliott's right!!! i know you only as "the haskellphobe"
22:26:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:26:33 <soundnfury> elliott: I do occasionally talk about other things
22:26:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:26:39 <soundnfury> like, actual esolangs
22:26:53 <elliott> well maybe it would be good if you didn't drown that out with that dumbness
22:27:10 <soundnfury> well maybe if there were more esolang talk in here there'd be something for me to talk about that wasn't dumb
22:28:04 <soundnfury> case in point: what does some irish lass who thinks she talks to angels have to do with esolangs?
22:28:12 <elliott> well so clearly you don't like the contents of this channel
22:28:17 <elliott> so instead of feebly "trolling" the people inside
22:28:18 <elliott> why not just go away
22:28:29 <soundnfury> but I /do/ like the thing this channel is ostensibly about
22:28:40 <monqy> hint: thats not what the channel is actually about. shoo
22:28:42 <elliott> so you are going to troll it in the hopes it becomes off-topic???
22:28:44 <elliott> by talking about
22:28:47 <elliott> something off-topic
22:29:01 <elliott> i don't see how this can possibly have a productive end... you're freely admitting you are trying to bother us because you don't like what we talk about
22:29:19 <GreyKnight> fungot: what is the meaning of life?
22:29:19 <fungot> GreyKnight: ' ( 1 2) ( scheme-report-environment 5)
22:29:37 <soundnfury> elliott: I'm not actually trying to bother you
22:29:59 <GreyKnight> Ah, scheme. Of course.
22:30:05 <soundnfury> I just have difficulty resisting the opportunities to direct childish humour at Haskell when I happen to be bored
22:30:29 <elliott> well
22:30:33 <soundnfury> and since, on days when I'm /not/ bored, there's not usually any conversation in this channel to join in with productively,
22:30:40 <elliott> i think you will find everyone in the channel either doesn't care about it or is bothered by it
22:30:44 <soundnfury> you only tend to hear from me when I'm bored
22:30:47 <GreyKnight> Well, *I'm* going to sleep
22:30:50 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: zzz).
22:31:02 <elliott> so perhaps restrain yourself?? or just don't join when you're bored
22:31:10 <oerjan> darn i was just going to xkcd him
22:31:35 <soundnfury> I usually do restrain myself, but you don't see that, you only see the cases when my restraint fails
22:31:49 <soundnfury> so, try not to hate me /too/ much for not being perfect at restraint
22:32:49 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:33:21 <oerjan> technically soundnfury had been here for hours before i noticed he was, of course that _was_ when he mentioned haskell.
22:34:12 <elliott> well if you have a person the vast majority of who's (total pro grammar) contribution to the channel is to fail to restrain themselves and say dumb things then that's pretty suboptimal imo
22:34:50 <soundnfury> programmers are in favour of syntax. Erm, I mean... they're pro grammar.
22:35:01 <oerjan> "whose" yw
22:35:07 <kmc> haskell... more like FUCK SKULL am i right
22:35:14 <kmc> (no, i am not)
22:35:51 -!- Deewiant has joined.
22:36:07 <soundnfury> kmc: good morrow, hail and well met. Prithee tell me how thou farest this day.
22:36:13 <monqy> haskell more like who would ever use a language with no I/O and you can't have variables???????am i right
22:36:18 <oerjan> it's ok you are allowed to dis haskell here. but you have to do it in the type system.
22:37:11 <elliott> monqy: i hear they represent strings as multiply-boxed linked lists!!! ha ha ha
22:37:12 <oerjan> and only because the kind system isn't powerful enough yet.
22:37:14 <elliott> ( :( )
22:37:37 <soundnfury> be kind to your type system. or is that a category error?
22:38:51 <soundnfury> On an unrelated topic, can someone give me architectural advice on a project I'm working on?
22:39:17 <soundnfury> it's a programmable text editor (-ish thing) in Python...
22:39:20 <Phantom_Hoover> no
22:39:22 <oerjan> in any case, http://hauptwerk.blogspot.no/2012/11/coming-soon-in-ghc-head-poly-kinded.html is _clearly_ relevant
22:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> sort it out yourself, or ask people you haven't systematically annoyed
22:40:12 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: but annoyed people can give good advice, under a set of implausible assumptions I won't list here
22:43:46 <monqy> am i annoyed enough to give good advice ?
22:43:48 <elliott> good to know the channel is getting back on topic
22:43:54 <elliott> #esotexteditors
22:44:24 <monqy> python is esoteric if you think about it hard enough
22:44:34 <monqy> eschew's the common wisdom to use lexical scoping
22:44:42 <monqy> now that's innovation
22:44:50 <kmc> it's almost lexical scoping
22:45:18 <elliott> monqy: i think python 3 gets it right?
22:45:19 <elliott> not sure
22:45:21 <elliott> "right" anyway
22:45:24 <elliott> "Another cool thing is that now even type classes can have Typeable instances; since we allow abstraction over Constraint, datatypes may have parameters involving the Constraint kind, so to support Typeable for those datatypes, we need to support Typeable for type classes in general (as pointed out by Gábor Lehel)."
22:45:29 <elliott> is this the future
22:45:39 <elliott> is there an instance Typeable Typeable.....
22:45:57 <monqy> a future in which the future is syb
22:45:57 <kmc> holy god
22:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> what's python's scoping like
22:47:02 <shachaf> elliott: Want to write alongside for traversals?
22:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> this sounds juicy
22:47:35 <olsner> are these lens shenanigans related to syb?
22:47:46 <shachaf> Not really.
22:47:53 <soundnfury> I should add that the first part of it I'm implementing is actually an emulated `ed' session
22:48:35 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck off and ask someone who cares
22:48:59 <kmc> soundnfury: perhaps bonghits will fix your emulated `ed' session
22:49:25 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: oh. I was assuming you'd continue to maintain a pretense of civility
22:49:30 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: if you write "x = 3" in a nested function, it puts a binding in your most local frame, not in whatever frame (if any) originally defined 'x'
22:49:33 <kmc> big whoop imo
22:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, ass of u and me, etc.
22:49:45 <kmc> it's kind of like scheme's 'define' vs 'set!'
22:49:49 <shachaf> In Python 3 you can say nonlocal x
22:50:00 <olsner> nonlocal? what a nice keyword
22:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry wait no, you haven't made an ass of me at all
22:50:13 <kmc> this arises because python doesn't have a distinction between declaring a variable and assigning to one
22:50:13 <zzo38> Well, local definitions like that may sometimes be useful in macros, although Haskell has bad support for macros anyways.
22:50:14 <soundnfury> olsner: well, they couldn't call it "global", that was taken
22:50:16 <kmc> which even scheme does kinda
22:50:19 <olsner> now, does that mean "sane x" or just "different x"
22:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> you are simply digging your own fetid little hole ever-deeper
22:50:33 -!- augur has joined.
22:50:40 <zzo38> I have used macros like that in C, though.
22:50:52 <kmc> the other thing about python is that 'for' loops and friends don't create new scopes; they mutate the counter variable in the function's scope
22:50:57 <kmc> however many languages work this way
22:51:01 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: funny, it doesn't look that way to me
22:51:27 <kmc> there is some additional weirdness with generator expressions tho
22:51:33 <olsner> I love how choosing the wrong name for the iteration variable in a for loop causes bugs after the for loop
22:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, your lack of perspective is one of your major flaws
22:51:47 <soundnfury> and I haven't even /mentioned/ a certain language even though several other people have
22:51:49 <kmc> see #3 here: http://web.archive.org/web/20101009122154/http://web.mit.edu/rwbarton/www/python.html
22:52:02 <shachaf> kmc: I heard you were going to get that back up on the real Internet.
22:52:05 <soundnfury> not that I expected you to indicate any awareness of my restraint when present
22:52:27 <elliott> ok so one of you has to go otherwise this dumb argument will continue on to infinity
22:52:30 <elliott> i vote soundnfury
22:52:53 <soundnfury> I've been /trying/ to let go, but Phantom_Hoover doesn't seem to like that idea
22:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> it's cute how you think you can just act obnoxiously and expect everyone to 'let go'
22:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i vote soundnfury also
22:56:10 <soundnfury> so, how about that other topic of conversation that isn't a pointless argument between me and Phantom_Hoover, eh? <-- if someone can provide one, I'd be grateful
22:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> no we'd be perfectly content for you to simply shut up
22:56:43 <kmc> or get kicked
22:56:51 <elliott> i vote both soundnfury and Phantom_Hoover shut up
23:01:12 <ion> http://pandyland.net/random/?comicid=722779190
23:01:19 <shachaf> elliott: Remember that one time I said nonsense in #haskell?
23:01:22 <zzo38> I read somewhere, making up cards of Magic: the Gathering only involving the name of itself and the text of the comprehensive rules. One card is a enchantment called "Nirvana" with text: Goblins cannot reach Nirvana.
23:02:00 <elliott> shachaf: yep
23:02:08 <zzo38> I interpret it to mean that, if this card ever becomes a creature, and gains flying, then the reach ability does not permit other creatures to block it if those creatures have the "Goblin" creature type.
23:03:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:03:46 <kmc> zzo38: nice
23:03:54 <kmc> any other good examples?
23:03:58 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
23:04:18 <ion> The closest thing to “<shachaf> nonsense” i could find was “<shachaf> What nonsense?” on 2012-11-20.
23:04:35 <shachaf> ion: Don't logread me!
23:05:00 <zzo38> kmc: I don't have other examples, sorry.
23:10:36 * Phantom_Hoover -> sleep
23:10:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:12:59 <kmc> the enchantment itself has to become a creature?
23:13:23 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think it would have to become a creature with flying before its text would have any effect on the game.
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23:18:24 <Gregor> Quoth Wikipedia: In 1864, Congress authorized a third series of fractional currency notes. The five-cent note was to bear a depiction of "Clark", but Congress was appalled when the issue came out not with a portrait of William Clark, the explorer, but Spencer M. Clark, head of the Currency Bureau. According to numismatic historian Walter Breen, Congress's "immediate infuriated response was to pass a law retiring the five-cent denomination, and another to forbid p
23:18:24 <Gregor> ortrayal of any living person on federal coins or currency."
23:18:32 <Gregor> That guy is the greatest troll in history X-D
23:20:26 <olsner> I'll give that a chuckle and an imaginary slow clap and/or applause
23:25:57 <kmc> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/04/one-in-four-americans-has-an-opinion-about-an-imaginary-debt-plan/
23:31:39 <Bike> PPP is pretty awesome. I like their twitter.
23:32:03 <kmc> oh i didn't even notice it was them
23:32:04 <fizzie> Point-to-Point Protocol?
23:32:13 <kmc> ppppolls
23:32:59 <Bike> Public Policy Polling, I think.
23:33:06 <kmc> haha, they re-tweeted someone asking "Could @ppppolls be any more blatantly biased?"
23:33:21 <Bike> They were retweeting people ranting at them all throughout November.
23:33:26 <kmc> didn't even respond
23:33:29 <kmc> i like their style
23:33:32 <Bike> All the ones about how Romney was totally going to win, etc
23:33:55 <Bike> "(I don't remember getting a single phone call in response to that video, although the crazy voice mails did blend together at some point)"
23:34:05 <kmc> "49% of GOP voters nationally say they think that ACORN stole the election for President Obama. We found that 52% of Republicans thought that ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama, so this is a modest decline, but perhaps smaller than might have been expected given that ACORN doesn't exist anymore."
23:34:20 <Fiora> pffff
23:34:41 <kmc> they also point out that "One reason that such a high percentage of Republicans are holding what could be seen as extreme views is that their numbers are declining"
23:35:00 <kmc> everybody remotely sane is being driven out of the party
23:35:04 <Fiora> did they also record the percentage of people identifying as republican in that poll?
23:35:09 <Fiora> I remember it went down a lot lately
23:35:10 <kmc> it's kind of wonderful as well
23:35:15 <Fiora> it is
23:35:20 <Fiora> it's a fun implosion to watch
23:35:25 <kmc> don't know about that poll specifically but they say it went down from 37% to 32% at the election
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23:51:45 <shachaf> I hird elliott likes vault.
23:52:08 <ion> Death Metal Fat Cat Drum Cover http://youtu.be/yWcak9tZupc
23:52:19 <shachaf> yo elliott, i hird you like vault, so i put a vault in your vault
23:53:14 <ion> I see what you did there.
23:55:40 <shachaf> I don't.
23:55:54 <shachaf> elliott: Remember back when I did that "u mad" thing?
23:56:04 <shachaf> I remember that #esoteric was window 19 in irssi at the time.
23:56:06 <shachaf> Or maybe 18
23:56:07 <shachaf> Now it's 11
23:56:15 <ion> 26
23:56:34 <shachaf> 26 is terrible!
23:57:47 <olsner> what is the significance of the number itself and the fact that you remember it?
00:00:03 <shachaf> elliott: Tell conal that.
00:00:08 <elliott> what
00:00:13 <shachaf> olsner: No significance.
00:00:23 <olsner> shachaf: ok, thanks for sharing
00:00:53 <shachaf> Remember back when I had #concatenative as window 10?
00:00:56 <shachaf> That was crazy.
00:01:43 <olsner> I don't remember that
00:03:44 <oerjan> remember back before we got amnesia?
00:03:51 <fizzie> Seventeen.
00:04:27 <olsner> that's numberwang
00:09:20 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/0textfile/miscellaneous/PMUIDS
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00:24:38 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't have Gopher.
00:24:41 <shachaf> Can I have an HTTP version?
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00:26:07 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/PMUIDS
00:26:31 <zzo38> The gopher version is considered official, however.
00:27:10 <shachaf> By whom?
00:28:12 <zzo38> By myself.
00:28:28 <zzo38> But, both are the same file, so it doesn't matter.
00:29:11 <olsner> oh, it's about pokemon
00:32:15 <olsner> sweet, class 1 snow warning in my area (class 1 is lowest class and basically means "potentially annoying weather", but still)
00:32:53 <pikhq_> zzo38: Would I be correct in assuming the Nintendo pmuids use National Pokedex numbers?
00:33:17 <pikhq_> i.e. Bulbasaur is pmuid:1
00:33:30 <pikhq_> Erm, pmuids:1
00:34:27 <pikhq_> (and Mew of course pmuids:151)
00:34:45 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes.
00:34:55 <zzo38> You are correct.
00:35:02 <pikhq_> You may want to specify that. :)
00:36:04 <zzo38> OK. I fixed it.
00:39:21 <oerjan> <- no snow at all but annoyingly cold. for now.
00:40:02 <pikhq_> <- chance of snow this weekend.
00:40:18 <Gregor> <- Saaaan Fraaaanciscoooooooo
00:40:25 <pikhq_> Maybe my girlfriend will actually see a snowy Colorado. That'd be something.
00:40:38 <pikhq_> Gregor: Well, if it snows there the apocalypse is real.
00:40:44 <Gregor> Hehehe
00:41:22 <oerjan> california gets apocalypses all the time, doesn't it?
00:41:59 <olsner> apocalypses really only happen once though
00:43:35 <kmc> SF got an inch of snow in Feb 2011
00:43:39 <kmc> previous occasion was in 1976
00:43:55 <kmc> i would believe that both 1976 and 2011 were apocalypse years
00:44:25 <Fiora> Wow, the last time the LA area got snow was 1962
00:53:36 <oerjan> Fiora: cuban missile crisis, obviously.
01:04:50 <fizzie> We got about 7 inches of snow last weekend.
01:08:21 <fizzie> They did predict up to 16, so I guess it wasn't that bad.
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02:17:25 <kmc> wow a friend just pointed out to me that clang can do things like this: https://gist.github.com/4211534
02:19:00 <Bike> what's movabsq do?
02:20:52 <Fiora> load 64-bit immediate value
02:20:54 <Fiora> I think
02:21:23 <Fiora> btq... bit test @_@
02:22:04 <oerjan> oh
02:22:17 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 4294977024 ""
02:22:18 <lambdabot> "100000000000000000010011000000000"
02:22:19 <kmc> yes
02:22:27 <Fiora> \r is 0x0D, \n is 0x0A, \t is 0x09, ' ' is 0x20
02:22:30 <Fiora> so um...
02:22:51 <oerjan> > length $ showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 4294977024 ""
02:22:53 <lambdabot> 33
02:23:26 <Fiora> it copies a bit from the given register to the carry flag....?
02:23:51 <Fiora> OH.
02:24:03 <Fiora> It's doing a 64-way table lookup using a single register.
02:24:07 <Fiora> 64-bit boolean table lookup
02:24:08 <kmc> yes
02:24:09 <Fiora> omg
02:24:14 <Fiora> that is wonderful
02:24:24 <Fiora> I've never seen it done that way
02:24:38 <Fiora> I've done it before in code with something like...
02:25:06 <Fiora> #define 4BIT_ARRAY_LOOKUP(x) ((constant>>(4*(x)))&0xF)
02:25:22 <Fiora> but bit test saves an instruction if you only need one bit I think...
02:25:31 <Fiora> since you'd have to do shift + and
02:25:44 <Fiora> but gosh I've never seen a compiler automate that, wow
02:28:42 <kmc> yeah
02:28:44 <kmc> i am impressed
02:29:08 <kmc> it must be pretty good for lexers in general
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02:32:15 <Fiora> I'm guessing it's a similar optimization to the one where it combines if( i == 15 || i == 16 || i == 17 ) into if( i >= 15 && i <= 17 )
02:32:22 <Fiora> I think gcc does that one
02:34:10 <Bike> this seems rather more involved, to my ignorant eyes
02:34:39 <Fiora> I think it's just combining N checks, realizing they fall in a 64-bit range, and generating a bit array I think...?
02:34:45 <Fiora> I mean the asm is weird but
02:36:06 <kmc> i'm not sure exactly how the optimization pass is implemented
02:36:10 <kmc> would be interested to find out
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03:59:01 <kmc> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/320 example 7 here is similar
04:00:25 <Fiora> Intel's compiler does some really neat things
04:00:30 <Fiora> One thing I saw it do once was something like this
04:00:52 <Fiora> there was some code where two pointers could alias, and if they actually did, the compiler would have to do something a lot worse
04:00:58 <Fiora> so it made a branch based on whether or not the pointers aliased
04:01:03 <Fiora> and compiled two copies of the code
04:02:19 <Fiora> ooh. I like the thing clang does in example 5, I've never seen gcc do that sort of thing
04:03:18 <Bike> so clang is better at compiling gcc than gcc is, then :P
04:03:50 <Bike> guess that coincidentally answers the question of whether gcc deals with ranges, though
04:04:24 <Fiora> Example 4!! oh god I actually remember that thing from the optimization manual
04:04:46 <Fiora> Intel optimized their instruction decoder in some weird way that makes handling length-changing prefixes insanely slow (like, 6 cycles per instruction slow)
04:05:00 <Fiora> oops
04:06:03 <Fiora> wow, intel did a crazy good job on example 3.
04:06:46 <kmc> yeah iirc intel's chips have a few decoder units, and only one of them can handle the full x86 syntax with all its stupid bells and whistles
04:07:09 <Fiora> I think it's worse than that, it holds up the entire pipeline for something like 6 cycles per instruction
04:07:14 <kmc> ouch
04:07:20 <Fiora> I think this is a new thing though
04:07:27 <Fiora> I think the old rule was "3 simple instructions, 1 complex instruction" per cycle
04:07:46 <Fiora> My guess is they have some kind of predecoder that guesses the lengths of instructions and if it's wrong they have to flush the whole thing and start over
04:08:26 <Fiora> and example 1. I wonder what the conditions for able-to-statically-evaluate-loops is for each compiler... and I just read that article backwards <_<;
04:09:54 <Fiora> http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2012-03/msg01932.html oooh here's the patch for gcc to fix that 16-bit immediate issue.
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04:13:37 <kmc> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/324 there are some followups here
04:13:39 <kmc> another gcc patch
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04:15:13 * Fiora throws example 4 at bike because division by multiplication taking advantage of limited input range
04:15:36 <Bike> mruh, i'm totally out of my depth here, you know
04:15:46 <Fiora> but you were just talking about that the other day right :<
04:15:56 <Bike> yeah but i'm still shit at it
04:16:03 <Fiora> you are nooooot
04:16:38 <oerjan> multiply and conquer
04:16:44 <Fiora> you are really smart okay >_<
04:18:54 <kmc> where is shachaf
04:25:36 <SingingBoyo> kmc: idk, I think he was on #haskell earlier though
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04:26:04 <Sgeo|web> Did coppro use the opportunity to beat me?
04:26:33 <Sgeo|web> In case not: elliott monqy Fiora
04:27:44 <coppro> I did not :(
04:27:54 <Fiora> thankies
04:32:22 <shachaf> hi kmc
04:32:33 <shachaf> Palo Alto
04:32:43 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/4211534
04:33:35 <oerjan> i'm sorry you cannot be at palo alto, that's a mythical place from legends
04:33:51 <kmc> it's a big tree
04:33:56 <kmc> are you in the tree shachaf
04:34:41 <shachaf> I've never actually seen the tree, though I think it's relatively close to where I live?
04:34:44 <shachaf> Maybe I should go see it.
04:34:50 * shachaf looks.
04:35:06 <oerjan> you aren't confusing it with yggdrasil?
04:35:22 <Fiora> yggdrasil? watch out for the FOEs
04:37:27 <shachaf> Oh, it's using the char as a bit index into a 64-bit integer?
04:37:32 <shachaf> That's clever.
04:38:02 <kmc> yes
04:38:49 <oerjan> "Efforts to restore the tree's health by the Southern Pacific Railroad, the City of Palo Alto and local citizens included progressive pruning off of the dying treetop, addition of soil and mulch at the tree’s base, removal of dead limbs, pesticide spraying and installation of a pipe up its trunk to bring water to the top of the tree.[6] Although the tree stands today at only 68% of its former stature, it enjoys greater health than nearly a century a
04:39:41 <oerjan> ago."
04:41:03 * shachaf wonders how general whatever it is that does that optimization is.
04:41:19 <Fiora> it'd be cool to see the code for it
04:42:49 <kmc> there is some FUD about how Supertrain will murder El Palo Alto
04:42:52 <kmc> NIMBY FUD
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04:43:30 <kmc> shachaf: i tried it on various subsets of ASCII 0..128 and it seemed to use the bitmask
04:43:56 <shachaf> Well, yes, I assume it's not *just* for the characters " \r\n\t"
04:44:17 <kmc> but i think it won't branch to use two different bitmasks, one for 0..63 and one for 64..128
04:44:29 <kmc> for a randomly selected subset of 0..255 it used a function pointer lookup table
04:44:33 <kmc> that's 2 kB!
04:44:49 <kmc> i would have thought a table of single bytes is better
04:44:55 <Fiora> a function pointer lookup table, wow
04:45:00 <kmc> since you are just going to load that byte to %rax and then ret, anyway