←2012-10 2012-11 2012-12→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:04:58 <kmc> Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Know Anything About Baseball
00:06:26 <kmc> this is the one area where nerds -- usually a fairly intellectual lot -- are extremely proud of ignorance
00:06:33 <kmc> is it so in all countries or just the USA?
00:08:13 <olsner> well, outside USA and Japan *no-one* knows what baseball is
00:09:27 <olsner> I suppose nerds might be more proud of that ignorance though
00:09:38 <olsner> as opposed to simply not caring about it
00:09:52 <kmc> well sports in general i mean
00:10:18 <kmc> baseball's just on my mind because San Francisco won at baseball and now all the nerds in San Francisco are loudly proclaiming how much they don't know or care about baseball
00:10:37 <Phantom__Hoover> they don't actually realise san fransisco won
00:10:46 <Phantom__Hoover> it's just a coincidene
00:10:48 <Phantom__Hoover> *c
00:10:52 <olsner> what's san francisco?
00:11:02 <kmc> hehe
00:11:04 <elliott> olsner: some baseball thing i think
00:11:14 <olsner> maybe it's a player?
00:12:40 <Phantom__Hoover> i think it's a type of base
00:12:50 <pikhq> olsner: Some other countries play baseball. Japan managed to get other bits of Asia in on it, and it's apparently pretty common in the Carribean.
00:13:40 <kmc> olsner: this clip will make it clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElAcu-1dlPM
00:13:40 <pikhq> Also, I can't comment about the ignorance: I don't actively *follow* most sports, but I'm not exactly ignorant on them.
00:13:43 <kmc> (nsfw language)
00:14:06 <pikhq> (hell, I've been known to nerd out on the origins of (American) football and its relation to other games)
00:14:38 * pikhq also enjoys watching football, so. *shrug*
00:14:51 <kmc> yeah that's the irony (?)
00:14:54 <kmc> sports fans are sports nerds
00:14:58 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, i never understood nsfw language
00:15:14 <Phantom__Hoover> i mean ffs you shouldn't be listening to videos at work with speakers on
00:15:20 <pikhq> For the most part? Yeah, it's just nerding out about sports instead of something else.
00:15:59 <olsner> nsfwu
00:16:04 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: people do though
00:16:05 <kmc> beats me
00:16:16 <olsner> it appears to have been fairly safe for wu though, so that's not funny
00:16:16 <pikhq> Especially given that for most spectator sports, 99% of the audience doesn't actually *do* the sport in question.
00:16:30 <pikhq> (in any capacity, obviously)
00:16:36 <olsner> kmc: thanks, I think I understand san francisco now
00:16:42 <kmc> baseball in particular is all about the stats and the obsessive knowledge of past games and teams
00:16:51 <kmc> anyway
00:16:57 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, in that case your workplace is either so relaxed I can't believe someone's going to flip out over some cursing, or you deserve what's coming to you anyway.
00:17:22 <pikhq> And, yeah, baseball in particular is a land of statistical analysis.
00:17:35 <Phantom__Hoover> brrrr stats
00:18:34 <kmc> anyway i don't care if people care about baseball or are ignorant of baseball
00:19:22 <pikhq> You're just finding it an interesting cultural phenomenon.
00:19:46 <pikhq> That smarter people go "sports -- eeew" as a *rule*.
00:19:59 <kmc> no what i mind is people who are conspicuous about their ignorance and proud of it
00:20:11 <pikhq> Aaah. Well. Yes, there is that.
00:20:18 <pikhq> Pride in ignorance is sad.
00:20:31 <kmc> there's a rule that whenever spots are brought up, you have to be the loudest in proclaiming your utter contempt and ignorance of sports
00:20:33 <elliott> q
00:20:35 <kmc> lest you be branded as one of Them
00:20:56 <kmc> this is one of the aspects of "nerd culture" which I think derives directly from middle school bullying or something
00:21:04 <pikhq> Probably.
00:21:26 <kmc> elliott: r
00:21:31 <elliott> s
00:21:37 <olsner> hmm, I might end up having to watch the rest of deadwood now... all because of wu
00:21:40 <pikhq> ティ
00:21:59 <elliott> olsner: can you explain san francisco to me?
00:22:02 <elliott> i didn't watch the video
00:22:48 <comex> hey elliott go vote in the distributor election
00:22:58 <olsner> elliott: I really can't do it as well as wu does
00:23:03 <comex> ;o
00:23:05 <elliott> comex: isn't it all votes for you?
00:23:12 <elliott> if i do that i'd have to like email taral though and ugh
00:23:14 <pikhq> Hey, go vote for President of the World.
00:23:25 <elliott> pikhq: i vote comex
00:23:34 <elliott> actually no
00:23:36 <comex> it's one vote for me, one vote for scshunt, one vote endorsing me, two present, endorse Google Groups, and denounce Google Groups :p
00:23:37 <elliott> i vote olsner
00:23:47 <elliott> comex: well i dont think anyone actually cares about the vote
00:23:49 <kmc> deadwood is fucking brilliant
00:23:55 <elliott> i'm not sure why you're even voting at all
00:24:00 <comex> yeah, I just don't want to arbitrarily declare myself the winner
00:24:14 <elliott> comex: well you can arbitrarily declare yourself the winner by having taral decide you'd be good to give the lists :P
00:24:26 <comex> and I started a vote because I felt it was an appropriately Agoran way to do things :p
00:24:28 <elliott> i guess i could vote for you though
00:24:32 <elliott> but not right now, too lazy
00:24:50 <coppro> comex: yw
00:25:01 <quintopia> is there anything a regex can do that a finite list of greedy string substitutions can't?
00:25:03 <comex> coppro: ?
00:25:07 <coppro> comex: voted for you
00:25:12 <pikhq> elliott: But there's only Obama and Romney!
00:25:12 <elliott> oh shit
00:25:15 <elliott> i'll vote coppro then
00:25:20 <comex> hehe
00:28:10 <olsner> elliott: but you already voted me
00:29:05 <elliott> no this is for distributor silly
00:29:34 <olsner> voting for sillies?
00:31:23 <elliott> yes
00:32:05 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen).
00:33:41 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Epsilo wow what a page
00:33:45 <elliott> perhaps this should be deleted
00:35:02 <elliott> pikhq: btw
00:35:12 <elliott> pikhq: do you know why ctrl+alt+fN might not work to switch to vts
00:35:16 <elliott> it's been like this a while for me!
00:36:32 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:36:37 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:37:38 <kmc> hey elliott do you think i should follow this link to accounts-google-com-id189134acx-ssl-k-emailrenew77.idns.pl and put in my gmail password
00:37:43 <kmc> seems legit right
00:37:54 <elliott> kmc: yes
00:38:02 <elliott> kmc: google is the most famous polish company
00:38:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:38:25 <kmc> and it has ssl right there in the name!
00:38:28 <kmc> secure!
00:39:06 <olsner> and emailrenew77 ... if the previous 76 renews got lost, they might give up trying to renew your email any moment
00:40:54 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:40:59 -!- DH____ has joined.
00:44:07 <elliott> kmc: do you know :(
00:44:16 <kmc> do i know what
00:44:24 <kmc> why ctrl+alt+fN might not work to switch to vts?
00:44:46 <kmc> well if you've remapped those keys in X then you have to use the remapped ones
00:45:30 <elliott> i haven't remapped them at all
00:45:32 <elliott> they just don't do shit
00:47:30 <ion> Confirmation process complete.. Click here to Continue to your Gmail
00:48:09 <elliott> i just put q in all the fields
00:48:13 <elliott> am i SCAMMING the SCAMMERS????
00:48:15 <ion> I put “test”.
00:48:54 <shachaf> elliott: does that make YOU a SCAMMER?
00:48:59 <shachaf> are you SCAMMING the YOURSELF?
00:49:01 <ion> scammer²
00:49:15 <shachaf> contravariant scammer
00:49:16 <ion> It’s scammers all the way down.
00:51:42 <kmc> wait did you actually visit that url
00:51:45 <kmc> i haven't been there
00:51:48 <kmc> i had the good sense to stay away
00:51:57 <kmc> you should see if you can SQL inject it
00:52:38 <shachaf> what url ?? ?
00:53:23 <shachaf> oh
00:54:27 <shachaf> kmc: You can tell it's fake because it doesn't require you to check the "I agree to the Google Terms" checkbox.
00:54:44 <elliott> kmc: the malware will aim heck your linux system
00:54:46 <elliott> dont visit the page!!!
00:55:04 <shachaf> elliott: "2 l8" :'(
00:55:22 <elliott> anyway seriously does anyone know why vt switching is fucked
00:55:31 <shachaf> elliott: You should upgrade to lens 3.1
00:55:36 <elliott> if it helps i am using kms
00:55:39 <elliott> intel graphics
00:56:21 <tswett> So guys, you know how there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely determines the natural numbers?
00:56:44 <elliott> no tswett
00:56:50 <elliott> if someone had been repeatedly saying that for the past week or so
00:56:50 <shachaf> tswett: No number greater than about 30 is natural.
00:56:52 <elliott> maybe I would know that
00:57:17 <tswett> shachaf: hm. I'm not so sure about that.
00:57:20 <tswett> Is 30 a natural number?
00:57:31 <shachaf> Yes.
00:57:36 <tswett> How about 32?
00:57:42 <shachaf> No.
00:57:48 <tswett> What about 31?
00:57:53 <shachaf> Yes.
00:57:59 <ion> 32 is quite unnatural indeed.
00:58:02 <tswett> How about 31 + 1?
00:58:05 <shachaf> No.
00:58:12 <tswett> Hmm...
00:58:22 <tswett> Are the natural numbers closed under addition?
00:58:31 <shachaf> tswett: Are you thinking of the axiom "every natural number has a successor"?
00:58:38 <shachaf> That was mistranscribed from the original.
00:58:47 <tswett> Oh?
00:58:49 <shachaf> The original is "every natural number (except 31) has a successor".
00:58:56 <ion> Indeed.
00:58:57 <tswett> Ah.
00:59:03 <tswett> So they are, in fact, not closed under addition?
00:59:13 <shachaf> That depends on what addition is.
00:59:21 <elliott> 31 has a successor
00:59:23 <ion> The mindblower is that the “31” in the original text is in base-8.
00:59:24 <elliott> it's just not a natural successor
00:59:25 * tswett nods.
00:59:44 <coppro> shachaf: I prefer wording it as "Every natural number that is not 31 has a successor"
00:59:51 <coppro> so it's clear that it doesn't preclude 31 having a successor
01:00:01 <shachaf> coppro: No, that's not right.
01:00:05 <shachaf> 31 *doesn't* have a successor.
01:00:10 <tswett> Let's define n + 0 as n, and n + (the successor of m) as the successor of (n + m).
01:00:36 <tswett> Then clearly 31 + 1 is undefined, since it would be the successor of 31.
01:00:51 <shachaf> tswett: Well, you have to prove that a natural number N isn't 31 before you can say things like "the successor of N"
01:00:58 <tswett> Right.
01:01:04 <shachaf> Just like you have to prove it's not 0 before you can say "the predecessor of N".
01:01:21 <shachaf> elliott: fix my ghc bug :'(
01:01:37 <elliott> no
01:01:58 <tswett> Let's add another axiom.
01:02:11 <shachaf> elliott: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7364
01:02:42 <elliott> btw zfc is inconsistent guys
01:02:42 <tswett> There exists an operation @ such that for all natural numbers a, b, c, and d, if a @ b = c @ d, then a = c and b = d.
01:02:56 <shachaf> tswett.gimli.moed++
01:03:02 <elliott> tswett: that axiom looks rejectable
01:03:23 <tswett> I dunno. Maybe it's consistent with the axioms we have so far.
01:03:30 <shachaf> elliott: dont wrorry!! hes not talking about @
01:03:33 <shachaf> just "@"
01:03:58 <elliott> shachaf: that isn't a funny joke though
01:04:11 <shachaf> uh oh
01:05:17 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243 - I think these are the axioms we're dealing with.
01:05:22 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know much about accordions?
01:05:52 <ion> according to whom?
01:06:06 <tswett> 1 is zero, 2 is successors for n != 31, 3 is successors for n = 31, 4 is the predecessor of 0, 5 is that succession is a bijection, and 6 is the @ operation.
01:06:18 <ion>
01:07:11 <tswett> I think this system might be inconsistent.
01:07:31 <shachaf> tswett: You just had to go and add that weird axiom, didn't you?
01:07:49 <tswett> shachaf: well, yes. How else are we supposed to represent ordered pairs of natural numbers as natural numbers?
01:08:17 <shachaf> What's the type of @?
01:08:33 <tswett> Nat -> Nat -> Nat, I guess.
01:08:41 <tswett> Right, I should have specified that.
01:09:04 <shachaf> That doesn't make sense. :-(
01:09:19 <elliott> i think @ is just fine
01:09:25 <tswett> Consider the natural numbers 0 @ 0, 0 @ 1, 0 @ 2, ..., up through 0 @ 31, as well as 1 @ 0. Assume that 0 @ 0 = 0, 0 @ 1 = 1, 0 @ 2 = 2, ..., up through 0 @ 31 = 31. Then 1 @ 0 can't be any natural number, so we have a contradiction.
01:09:28 <elliott> because tswett does not restrict natural numbers to 0 and successors of natural numbers
01:09:35 <Phantom__Hoover> you know what's annoying
01:09:36 <elliott> @ can just create natural numbers that are not the successor of anything
01:09:40 <elliott> no?
01:09:43 <tswett> elliott: oh, good point.
01:09:56 <elliott> so for instance
01:09:59 <elliott> it could give back 32
01:10:06 <elliott> whereby 32 i mean the number that is not the successor of 31
01:10:13 <tswett> So, 5?
01:10:19 <elliott> 5 is a number
01:10:24 <tswett> If we *do* assume that every natural number is either 0 or the successor of a natural number, though, we simply have to go through all 32! permutations there, and we can show that our system is inconsistent.
01:10:28 <FreeFull> So you get a different set of natural numbers depending on the left side of @
01:10:28 <tswett> And it's not the successor of 31.
01:10:34 <elliott> tswett: but why would you assume that
01:10:40 <elliott> are you trying to break mathematics???
01:10:43 <FreeFull> What is (0@1) + (1@0)
01:10:59 <tswett> elliott: no, I'm trying to bend it as far as it will go without breaking it.
01:11:10 <Phantom__Hoover> you guys are so boring :/
01:12:03 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Let's make things more interesting by defining a new esolang!
01:12:05 <shachaf> I'm thinking it'll have about 8 operations.
01:12:10 <FreeFull> 1@0 could be 0 + aleph
01:12:12 <shachaf> Not quite sure what they'll be yet.
01:12:17 <FreeFull> Then 1@1 would be 1 + aleph
01:12:23 <FreeFull> By aleph
01:12:28 <FreeFull> By aleph I mean aleph zero
01:12:43 <tswett> How about 2@0?
01:12:59 <ion> shachaf: One of them is @
01:13:09 <shachaf> ion: What does @ do?
01:13:19 <elliott> everything
01:13:30 <FreeFull> 2@0 would be 0 + theconstant + theconstant
01:13:38 <FreeFull> Or 0 + 2*theconstant
01:13:56 <kmc> shachaf: no
01:16:07 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, supersedes all lesser operating systems and gives you a sensual massage
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01:16:34 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243 - okay, we've added an axiom and clarified an axiom.
01:16:38 <tswett> This new system is inconsistent.
01:16:39 <shachaf> kmc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan_(accordion) are pretty the future, huh?
01:16:41 <FreeFull> 1@0 is larger than any 0@x
01:16:49 <FreeFull> 2@0 is larger than any 1@x
01:16:51 <FreeFull> So on
01:16:56 <elliott> define larger
01:17:15 <shachaf> elliott: It's a type of beer, right?
01:17:15 <FreeFull> tswett: Why are you only going up to 31?
01:17:28 <tswett> FreeFull: well, how high would you go?
01:17:42 <ion> elliott: Like yo momma
01:17:46 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, suggn. @'s name should be bayan
01:17:52 <FreeFull> tswett: I wouldn't have an upper limit
01:17:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: why
01:18:02 <elliott> FreeFull: you can't just have all the integers.
01:18:08 <Phantom__Hoover> accordion, that's why
01:18:10 <elliott> that's greedy as fuck. people like you disgust me!!
01:18:18 <tswett> Yeah, I mean, you have to stop *somewhere*.
01:18:34 <FreeFull> elliott: I wonder if you could declare 31 as its own successor
01:18:43 <elliott> that's just saturated arithmetic no
01:18:53 <tswett> So let's see, how can we make our system consistent.
01:19:05 <FreeFull> Where is the inconsistency?
01:19:12 <ion> The successor of 31 is 31.5. The successor of 31.5 is 31.75.
01:19:13 <Phantom__Hoover> why use the boring old definition of consistency anyway
01:19:23 <tswett> Currently, it's possible to prove that every natural number is equal to 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, or 31.
01:19:36 <tswett> And that none of these numbers are equal to each other.
01:20:15 <FreeFull> And?
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01:20:18 <tswett> FreeFull: in http://pastie.org/5147243? Given a set of 32 different natural numbers, you can prove that there are no natural numbers different from all of them.
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01:21:09 <FreeFull> Do these rules forbid an x where S(x) = 0
01:21:18 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
01:21:20 <tswett> Yes. Axiom 4.
01:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> 4. 0 is not the successor of any natural number.
01:21:31 <FreeFull> Ah
01:21:33 <FreeFull> Missed that one
01:21:44 <tswett> Wait, hang on.
01:21:54 <tswett> Maybe these axioms aren't inconsistent after all.
01:22:27 <FreeFull> Maybe you shouldn't be calling them natural numbers
01:22:28 <tswett> Define 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 as the "standard" natural numbers.
01:22:35 <tswett> Okay, let's call them...
01:22:45 <tswett> Chafian numbers.
01:22:54 <shachaf> tswett: You *did* see ion's remark, right?
01:22:58 <tswett> Define 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 as the "standard" Chafian numbers.
01:23:13 <tswett> shachaf: what remark was that?
01:23:14 <FreeFull> Is there any value defined for 1@1
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01:23:25 <FreeFull> I think the @ operation needs to be fleshed out further
01:23:28 <shachaf> The natural numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30, 31
01:23:35 <FreeFull> Although
01:23:36 <shachaf> ion: Right?
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01:23:42 <tswett> FreeFull: well, yeah. Axiom 6. There is a natural number a @ b, for all a and b.
01:23:59 <FreeFull> tswett: But that doesn't say what the natural number would be
01:24:27 <tswett> Well, see. Perhaps there exists a natural number, let's call it i, such that iterating the successor function on i never gets you a standard Chafian number, and iterating the successor function on a standard Chafian number never gets you i.
01:25:12 <tswett> I don't think you can disprove that.
01:25:19 <FreeFull> I think you are right
01:25:37 <FreeFull> Let's call the non-standard Chafian number 33
01:25:57 <FreeFull> Or maybe 32
01:26:17 <tswett> I dunno. What would we call the predecessor of its predecessor?
01:26:42 <tswett> I think we should just call it i. Then we can speak of numbers like i + 5, and i - 480, and so on.
01:26:57 <ion> shachaf: Sounds right.
01:27:07 <FreeFull> Hmm, we can't have 32 without 3 and 7 conflicting
01:27:15 <FreeFull> But maybe we could have i
01:27:58 <FreeFull> i would have to be on a different ring
01:28:09 <tswett> So, I think we have a model of these axioms.
01:28:48 <FreeFull> But even with i
01:28:50 <tswett> It's the set {0, 1, 2, ..., 31} union {i + n where n is an integer}, such that 0 and S are defined in the obvious ways, and then @ is defined just however.
01:28:54 <FreeFull> Do you see any inconsistency?
01:29:07 <tswett> No, these axioms are consistent. There's a model of them.
01:29:40 <FreeFull> If there was an axiom stating there were only 32 chafian numbers, then it might be inconsistent
01:29:44 <FreeFull> But as it stands
01:29:48 <tswett> Right.
01:30:35 <tswett> Now, this seems to raise a question: what is i + i? I don't think this model admits a consistent definition of addition.
01:30:59 <tswett> Then again, neither does the set {0, 1, 2, ..., 31}.
01:31:15 <FreeFull> a @ b could be defined as b + a*i
01:31:26 <tswett> But then you need to define + and *.
01:31:30 <FreeFull> Yeah
01:31:57 <FreeFull> If you defined + in terms of successors
01:31:59 <FreeFull> Hmm
01:32:03 <FreeFull> Then it wouldn't work
01:34:42 <tswett> So, what axioms do we want + to obey?
01:36:01 <tswett> We want 0 + a = a + 0 = a. We want a + b = b + a, and (a + b) + c = a + (b + c).
01:36:17 <tswett> And we want a + 1 = S(a) for all a ≠ 31.
01:37:06 <tswett> Are these new axioms consistent?
01:37:42 <tswett> We can now posit a Chafian number corresponding to every natural number.
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01:38:02 <tswett> But all Chafian numbers corresponding to natural numbers 32 or greater are non-standard.
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01:38:38 <tswett> Hm, but does this work? 32 is not 0, so it has a predecessor. Call it P(32).
01:39:30 <tswett> P(32) is clearly not 31. This means that P(32) + 1 = 32. However, 31 + 1 = 32 as well.
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01:40:46 <augur> tswett!
01:40:48 <augur> what are you doing!
01:41:16 <tswett> augur: I'm trying to do as much math as I can with the Chafian numbers.
01:41:26 <augur> chafian numbers?
01:41:39 <tswett> Yeah. "Natural numbers" as defined here: http://pastie.org/5147243
01:41:42 <shachaf> 18:23 <shachaf> The natural numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30, 31
01:42:07 <tswett> So, it's impossible for + to satisfy zero-is-identity, commutativity, associativity, compatibility with the successor function, and bijectivity.
01:42:42 <augur> i dont follow
01:44:05 <tswett> Well, the axioms at http://pastie.org/5147243 are consistent.
01:44:16 <tswett> I'm trying to add more axioms, defining arithmetic and stuff.
01:44:44 <FreeFull> tswett: There is no 31 + 1
01:44:53 <FreeFull> Because there is no S(31)
01:45:27 <augur> im not sure these are truly consistent
01:45:28 <quintopia> tswett: where does the standard Z/32 arithmetic break down?
01:45:50 <tswett> augur: I gave a model of it.
01:45:53 <tswett> < tswett> It's the set {0, 1, 2, ..., 31} union {i + n where n is an integer}, such that 0 and S are defined in the obvious ways, and then @ is defined just however.
01:45:54 <augur> tswett: oh?
01:45:59 <FreeFull> If P(0) was 32 and S(32) was 0 then it would be standard modular arithmetic
01:46:08 <FreeFull> Other than the @ stuff
01:46:28 <tswett> Oh yeah. I said that "32 is not 0, so it has a predecessor", but maybe 32 *is* 0.
01:46:29 <augur> tswett: well i suppose you could define trivial models like {*}
01:46:37 <augur> no that wouldnt work
01:46:41 <augur> {*,31}
01:46:53 <FreeFull> tswett: 32 isn't 0
01:47:09 <tswett> FreeFull: can you prove that?
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01:47:31 <FreeFull> You can't prove either way with these axioms
01:47:55 <FreeFull> Whatever the definition of + is, 16+16 wouldn't be a standard Chafian number
01:48:43 <FreeFull> We could forget about having +
01:48:45 <augur> btw 7 and 4 say the same thing
01:49:06 <augur> well, more or less
01:49:11 <tswett> Aren't you contradicting yourself? You said you can't prove that 16 + 16 ≠ 0, but you also said that 16 + 16 is not a standard Chafian number, didn't you?
01:49:45 <augur> so
01:49:52 <FreeFull> I am contradicting myself
01:49:58 <augur> {0,31} work for S(0) = 31
01:50:03 <augur> it satisfies up to 7
01:50:05 <FreeFull> Obviously + is ill-defined right now
01:50:05 <shachaf> I am contracting m'self.
01:50:11 <FreeFull> So you can't prove anything about it
01:50:15 <augur> 6 is also definable
01:50:30 <augur> but lemme check if any @ can satisfy 8
01:52:06 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243 - okay, here are our axioms now.
01:52:20 <tswett> I'm pretty sure we can prove that 31 + 1 = 0.
01:52:43 <FreeFull> You could define addition in following way: x + 0 = x x + y = S(x) + P(y)
01:53:40 <augur> hm
01:53:47 <augur> im confident, actually, that 8 is unsatisfiable
01:54:04 <elliott> howso
01:54:10 <tswett> Let 32 = 31 + 1. Suppose 32 ≠ 0; then, by axiom 7, the predecessor of 32, P(32), exists. By axiom 3, P(32) ≠ 31. Therefore, by axiom 14, P(32) + 1 = 32. This means that P(32) + 1 = 31 + 1, so, by axiom 15, P(32) = 31. This is a contradiction.
01:54:12 <augur> wel
01:54:16 <tswett> Therefore, 31 + 1 = 0.
01:54:17 <elliott> oh hm
01:54:18 <Phantom_Hoover> pigeonhole, no?
01:54:24 <elliott> tswett added 7
01:54:25 <augur> yeah pigeon hole i think will work
01:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> there are 32^2 pairs of natural numbers (a,b)
01:54:34 <elliott> do you have the necessary infrastructure for pigeonhole though
01:54:41 <elliott> do you have the necessary infrastructure for pigeonhole though
01:54:45 <augur> elliott: yes
01:54:47 <augur> elliott: yes
01:54:50 <FreeFull> tswett: Those axioms don't state what happens when you have something like 3 + 4
01:54:52 <elliott> that was at Phantom_Hoover
01:54:52 <tswett> Axioms 1 through 8 are consistent. You can't prove that there are only 32 natural numbers.
01:55:01 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: actually there arent 32^2 pairs
01:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ...ah
01:55:16 <tswett> FreeFull: sure they do. 3 + 4 = 3 + (3 + 1) = (3 + 3) + 1.
01:55:18 <augur> theres (k+1)^2 pairs
01:55:23 <augur> for some choice of k
01:55:32 <augur> actually k+2 sorry
01:55:54 <augur> because the model might identify things that you dont identify in the axioms
01:55:54 <elliott> tswett: so when augur said yes he actuall ymeant no
01:56:01 <augur> elliott: no, i meant yes
01:56:02 <elliott> *actually meant
01:56:03 <FreeFull> tswett: You didn't put anywhere that x + y = x + P(y) + 1
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01:56:18 <elliott> augur: well i do not see how you can prove it from those axioms
01:56:25 <tswett> FreeFull: yes, but I put somewhere that x + S(y) = x + y + 1. Axiom 14 says so.
01:56:43 <FreeFull> 14. For all a ≠ 31, a + 1 = S(a).
01:57:00 <augur> elliott: if there are (k+2)^2 pairs of numbers, and @ is an endomap on the (k+2) elements of Nat
01:57:09 <elliott> augur: "if there are (k+2)^2 pairs of numbers"
01:57:09 <tswett> Anyway, I think axioms 1 through 15 are no longer consistent. I think you can prove that i = i + 32, and that i ≠ i + 32.
01:57:10 <augur> then @ is not injective
01:57:14 <elliott> augur: you cannot prove there are only 32 chafian numbers
01:57:15 <elliott> going by those axoims
01:57:17 <elliott> *axioms
01:57:18 <elliott> afaict
01:57:22 <augur> elliott: i never said there were only 32
01:57:25 <augur> thats why i said k+2
01:57:27 <augur> keep up, kid
01:57:31 <tswett> augur: so, there are infinitely many Chafian numbers.
01:57:32 <elliott> augur: you cannot prove there are only N chafian numbers for any constant N
01:57:41 <elliott> stop being condescending
01:57:58 <augur> elliott: and you need to stop not reading what i say
01:58:10 <elliott> tswett: have fun
01:58:10 <augur> tswett: yes, thats true. if there's infinitely many it might work
01:58:14 <elliott> wow no shit
01:58:19 <tswett> elliott: thanks.
01:58:19 <augur> for finite N it pigeonholes
01:58:20 <elliott> you think there being infinitely many might have been....
01:58:21 <elliott> the point???
01:58:40 <tswett> Proving that i = i + 32. That's easy: i = i + 0 and 0 = 32.
01:58:56 <FreeFull> Where did you prove 0 = 32
01:59:03 <augur> tswett: there is no + in these axioms
01:59:21 <tswett> FreeFull: 21:54:10 EDT.
01:59:28 <tswett> augur: these axioms? http://pastie.org/5147243
01:59:36 <FreeFull> What sort of bullshit time is EDT
01:59:36 <tswett> Axioms 10 through 15 are about +.
01:59:43 <tswett> FreeFull: I have no idea.
01:59:50 <augur> oh, you added some axioms, ok
01:59:52 <tswett> 21:54:10 < tswett> Let 32 = 31 + 1. Suppose 32 ≠ 0; then, by axiom 7, the predecessor of 32, P(32), exists. By axiom 3, P(32) ≠ 31. Therefore, by axiom 14, P(32) + 1 = 32. This means that P(32) + 1 = 31 + 1, so, by axiom 15, P(32) = 31. This is a contradiction.
01:59:52 <augur> i didnt see that
02:00:25 <FreeFull> tswett: 32 doesn't = 31 + 1 though
02:00:43 <FreeFull> Wait
02:00:47 <FreeFull> Let me read the whole thing
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02:01:57 <tswett> Okay, so, proving that i ≠ i + 32. We know that i + 32 = i + 1 + 1 + ... + 1, where there are 32 1s. Since all of those numbers are undefined, this means that i + 32 is the 32nd successor of i.
02:02:03 <tswett> This means that i is the 32nd successor of itself.
02:02:08 <FreeFull> tswett: You've proven that 32 ≠ 31 + 1
02:02:14 <FreeFull> But not that 32 = 0
02:02:40 <tswett> FreeFull: I said at the beginning, "Let 32 = 31 + 1". I think said "suppose 32 ≠ 0". I then derived a contradiction.
02:03:09 <tswett> I believe this proves that 32 = 0.
02:03:49 <tswett> So, i being the 32nd successor of itself. Is that actually impossible?
02:04:05 <elliott> perfectly possible if 32 = 0, surely
02:04:30 <elliott> tswett: anyway can't i just be S(i)
02:04:36 <FreeFull> tswett: Ok, what you've proven is that either 32 = 0 or that 32 ≠ 31 + 1
02:04:37 <elliott> i don't see that forbidden in the axioms
02:04:49 <elliott> FreeFull: you do not seem to understand what a definition is
02:04:55 <tswett> FreeFull: and 32 = 31 + 1 by definition; therefore, 32 ≠ 0.
02:04:55 <elliott> the sequence of digits "32" has no meaning in itself.
02:05:00 <elliott> tswett defined 32 as meaning 31 + 1.
02:05:06 <tswett> Maybe i can be S(i).
02:05:06 <FreeFull> tswett: The axioms don't state that 32 = 31 + 1
02:05:16 <elliott> ok so you actually do not understand what a definition is
02:05:30 <tswett> FreeFull: okay, replace 32 with 31 + 1 in this entire conversation, forever.
02:05:43 <tswett> What I've proven is that either 31 + 1 = 0, or that 31 + 1 ≠ 31 + 1.
02:05:54 <FreeFull> The axioms don't state anything about what 31 + 1 would be
02:06:08 <elliott> he just proved what it is tho
02:06:10 <elliott> using: the axioms
02:06:12 <tswett> Okay, let me repeat my theorem a third time.
02:06:55 <tswett> Suppose 31 + 1 ≠ 0; then, by axiom 7, the predecessor of 31 + 1, P(31 + 1), exists. By axiom 3, P(31 + 1) ≠ 31. Therefore, by axiom 14, P(31 + 1) + 1 = 31 + 1. This means that P(31 + 1) + 1 = 31 + 1, so, by axiom 15, P(31 + 1) = 31. This is a contradiction.
02:07:05 <FreeFull> If 31 + 1 ≠ 31 + 1 then it could be not a Chafian number
02:07:33 <tswett> Nor could it be anything whatsoever.
02:08:14 <FreeFull> It's late at night
02:08:33 <tswett> So it is.
02:08:47 <coppro> tswett: your theorem has a flaw
02:08:47 <elliott> tswett: how long until you have to specify the logic you're using
02:08:51 <tswett> Let me take two 300-microgram tablets of melatonin.
02:08:54 <tswett> elliott: first-order logic.
02:08:58 <tswett> About six seconds.
02:09:23 <tswett> coppro: it does?
02:10:25 <FreeFull> tswett: Ok, ok, I see it
02:10:49 <FreeFull> It's a contradiction because of axiom 3
02:11:25 <FreeFull> But
02:12:07 <coppro> no wait, you're right
02:12:52 <FreeFull> tswett: Does this mean that all chafian numbers smaller than 0 or larger than 31 are equal to 0?
02:14:15 <FreeFull> Does one of the axioms imply uniqueness or something like that? This might be used to prove that there are only 32 unique chafian numbers
02:14:56 <elliott> define larger
02:15:18 <tswett> Yeah, depends on how you define "larger".
02:15:26 <FreeFull> x + 1 is larger than x
02:15:57 <FreeFull> Actualyl
02:16:08 <FreeFull> It wouldn't prove all chafian numbers are equal to zero
02:16:40 <FreeFull> 31 + 1 + 1 would be the same as 1, not the same as 0
02:17:41 <FreeFull> All assuming 32 = 31 + 1
02:18:09 <FreeFull> Actually, I can still see nonstandard chafian numbers
02:18:37 <FreeFull> Let's see
02:19:24 <tswett> "x + 1 is larger than x" isn't satisfied by any total orders, since 31 + 1 = 0.
02:20:34 <coppro> eh, just well-order the thing
02:21:15 <FreeFull> Suppose i ≠ 0; By axiom 7, P(i) exists. By axiom 2, S(i) exists
02:21:30 <coppro> Not all models of the Chafian numbers have 32 elements, if that's what you're asking
02:21:35 <FreeFull> This can be repeated for the value P(i) and the value S(i), extending infinitely in both directions
02:21:36 <coppro> but there exists a model that does
02:21:42 <elliott> FSVO infinitely
02:21:45 <tswett> And indeed, we're just defining i as "a non-standard number".
02:21:48 <FreeFull> At no point you will encounter a standard chafian number
02:21:52 <elliott> oh, I see
02:21:54 <tswett> FreeFull: right.
02:22:07 <tswett> coppro: doesn't axiom 8 imply that there are no finite models of the Chafian numbers?
02:22:34 <tswett> Along with axiom 6.
02:22:35 <FreeFull> tswett: 0 could be larger than 31
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02:23:10 <tswett> FreeFull: yeah, but you can't consistently have... let me have lambdabot tell you.
02:23:16 <elliott> tswett: what is axoim 7
02:23:18 <elliott> *axiom
02:23:20 <elliott> oh
02:23:23 <elliott> it comes after axiom 3
02:23:25 <elliott> and before axiom 4
02:23:26 <FreeFull> Funny, chafian numbers are almost but not quite mod32
02:23:30 <elliott> chafian ordering??
02:23:44 <tswett> > "You can't consistently have " ++ concat [show n ++ " < " | n <- [0..31]] "0."
02:23:45 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char] -> [GHC.Types.Char]'
02:23:45 <lambdabot> ...
02:23:53 <tswett> > "You can't consistently have " ++ concat [show n ++ " < " | n <- [0..31]] ++ "0."
02:23:53 <FreeFull> tswett: Ok, how about this
02:23:55 <lambdabot> "You can't consistently have 0 < 1 < 2 < 3 < 4 < 5 < 6 < 7 < 8 < 9 < 10 < 1...
02:24:02 <FreeFull> tswett: S(x) is larger than x
02:24:07 * tswett nods.
02:24:17 <FreeFull> Since there is no S(31), there is no number larger than 31
02:24:17 <tswett> Yeah, that seems consistent.
02:24:27 <tswett> i could be larger than 31.
02:24:41 <coppro> tswett: totally forgot about those ><
02:24:52 <coppro> ok, so yeah, you definitely have nonstandard ones
02:25:07 <coppro> actually
02:25:13 <coppro> your axioms are stupid
02:25:22 <quintopia> finally someone speaks sense
02:25:26 <coppro> S(0) = 31 is allowable as a model of the Chafian numbers
02:25:52 <tswett> FreeFull: wait, no, that's not consistent. Every nonstandard number is the 32nd successor of itself.
02:25:53 <shachaf> Y'all're still talking about this?
02:26:01 <coppro> tswett: not necessarily
02:26:01 <FreeFull> coppro: Not with the axioms disallowing it
02:26:02 <tswett> coppro: 31 is defined as the 31st successor of 0.
02:26:07 <coppro> tswett: no it's not
02:26:28 <tswett> Fine, I'm adding another axiom saying it is.
02:26:56 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243
02:27:00 <tswett> 16. 1 = S(0), 2 = S(1), 3 = S(2), ..., and 31 = S(30).
02:27:07 <tswett> shachaf: yes.
02:27:36 <FreeFull> Why are the axioms numbered weirdly?
02:28:01 <tswett> Because I want them to be presented in a logical order, but I don't want to renumber any of them.
02:28:21 <tswett> Agora Nomic gets along well that way.
02:28:51 <FreeFull> Can you show that i would be the 32nd successor of itself?
02:30:05 -!- QuaeroVeritatis has joined.
02:30:24 <QuaeroVeritatis> hello all
02:30:35 <elliott> `welcome QuaeroVeritatis
02:30:40 -!- QuaeroVeritatis has left.
02:30:46 <HackEgo> QuaeroVeritatis: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:30:48 <elliott> well fuck you
02:31:31 <shachaf> `welcome shachaf
02:31:34 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:31:40 <shachaf> HackEgo: thx :')
02:31:45 <shachaf> No one's ever welcomed me before.
02:40:23 <FreeFull> `WELCOME shachaf
02:41:14 <tswett> `wELCOME tswett
02:41:16 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wELCOME: not found
02:41:22 <tswett> i FEEL SO UNWELCOME.
02:42:19 <elliott> hi
02:42:45 <FreeFull> tswett: Can you show i = S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(i))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
02:42:58 <tswett> FreeFull: I don't believe so.
02:43:27 <FreeFull> Ok
02:44:04 <FreeFull> So i is the 32nd successor of itself only if by 32 you mean the chaffian number 31 + 1
02:44:20 <tswett> You used 16 Ss there, not 32 of them.
02:44:44 <elliott> but hey, what's the difference
02:44:45 <tswett> By "32nd successor", I mean the successor iterated 32 times, where "32" is the ordinary natural number 32.
02:45:04 <elliott> didn't we just establish 32 wasn't a natural number hours ago
02:45:27 <tswett> We did, but then we changed our definition of "natural number" to be not stupid.
02:45:35 <tswett> Actually, I'm not sure we really have a definition of "natural number".
02:45:42 <FreeFull> tswett: Woops
02:45:57 <tswett> After all, there's no definition of "natural number" in first-order logic that does not also admit things that aren't the natural numbers.
02:46:10 <FreeFull> S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(i))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
02:46:32 <tswett> I guess they're perfectly definable in second-order logic, aren't they? But I don't know what the semantics of second-order logic are.
02:46:41 <FreeFull> Is there a number that isn't a surreal number?
02:46:52 <elliott> define number
02:47:00 <tswett> Imaginary numbers are not surreal numbers.
02:47:22 <tswett> Cardinal numbers are only sometimes identified with ordinal numbers.
02:47:54 <coppro> cardinal numbers are ordinal numbers
02:48:11 <coppro> but not all ordinal numbers are cardinal numbers
02:49:43 <FreeFull> You're right about imaginary numbers not being surreal numbers I think
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02:49:53 <FreeFull> Hmm
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03:04:25 <Sgeo|web> hibye im alive
03:04:54 <elliott> Sgeo|web: are you drunk
03:05:22 <Sgeo|web> was in a rush
03:05:44 <coppro> that's worse
03:05:45 <elliott> this is the second time we have been told Sgeo|web is alive recently
03:05:58 <elliott> try not to die
03:06:32 <Sgeo|web> not in any danger. except for crossing streets.
03:06:56 <shachaf> don't cross sts Sgeo|web
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03:08:49 <tswett> Hi, Bike.
03:09:23 <shachaf> Hike.
03:09:24 <Bike> hi, tsett.
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03:13:02 <elliott> is it bad if i can't stop laughing at sgeo right now
03:13:25 <tswett> Yes.
03:13:34 <elliott> what kind of bad
03:13:46 <tswett> Hm...
03:13:46 <shachaf> Sgeo crossed a saint.
03:13:51 <shachaf> You don't want to do that.
03:13:52 <tswett> A couple dozen millihitlers.
03:14:06 <tswett> Between 40 and 50.
03:14:16 <tswett> But yes, as I was saying.
03:14:18 <tswett> Hm...
03:14:54 <tswett> You know how there's no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers? And, in particular, the Peano axioms, in first-order logic, admit multiple models?
03:14:57 <tswett> Only one of those models is computable.
03:15:12 <tswett> You can kind of define the natural numbers as "the computable model of the Peano axioms".
03:15:56 <elliott> but i hear there's no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers
03:16:05 <tswett> True.
03:16:17 <tswett> And, in particular, the Peano axioms, in first-order logic, admit multiple models.
03:16:21 <Bike> dumb question time: a model is computable if it's a recursive set?
03:16:22 <tswett> But only one of those models is computable.
03:16:35 <tswett> Bike: that's the meaning I had in mind, yeah.
03:19:59 <Bike> cool
03:19:59 <elliott> tswett: a computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the booleans
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03:21:26 <tswett> elliott: yeah, those exist.
03:22:08 <tswett> There exist Booleans x and y such that x ≠ y. There do not exist Booleans x, y and z such that x ≠ y, y ≠ z, and x ≠ z.
03:22:25 <elliott> tswett: well then!
03:22:28 <elliott> tswett: just do the same thing for naturals
03:22:44 <elliott> there exist naturals x and y such that x =/= y. there exist naturals x and y and z such that x =/= y =/= z. there exist ...
03:24:24 <tswett> There do not exist naturals a_0, a_1, ..., a_n such that a_0 ≠ a_1, a_0 ≠ a_2, ..., a_0 ≠ a_n, a_1 ≠ a_2, a_1 ≠ a_3, ..., a_1 ≠ a_n, ... ... ..., a_(n-1) ≠ a_n?
03:24:30 <tswett> For some uncountable natural number n?
03:24:35 <elliott> tswett: yes.
03:24:58 <Bike> I still don't understand "uniquely", is this something with ordinals
03:26:05 <tswett> Bike: if a computable set of axioms has the natural numbers as a model, then it also has other things as models.
03:26:27 <Bike> Other things like what?
03:27:56 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_model_of_arithmetic
03:27:57 <tswett> Those.
03:28:15 <Bike> oh, those things that I don't understand... thanks.
03:28:17 <shachaf> tswett: did you know:
03:28:22 <shachaf> there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely determines the natural numbers
03:28:25 <shachaf> ?
03:28:32 <Bike> probably I should just read more boolos or somefin
03:28:34 <shachaf> "tru fax"
03:28:48 <tswett> shachaf: hm. I think I remember somebody saying that before.
03:28:55 <Jafet> Shadow fax
03:31:19 <tswett> I wonder what the Peano axioms + the negation of Goodstein's theorem is like.
03:31:44 <shachaf> What about the Peano axioms + the negation of Godwin's law?
03:31:50 <shachaf> Nah, that's unthinkable.
03:36:12 <Jafet> It's like the Peano axioms + the negation of Goodstein's theorem
03:39:46 <tswett> Let i be the smallest number such that the Goodstein sequence G(i) is infinite.
03:41:17 <tswett> i must be very large, of course.
03:41:29 <Jafet> O kay
03:41:36 <tswett> So large, in fact, that ZFC tells you there's no such thing.
03:41:46 <tswett> But let's ignore the fact that i doesn't exist. Is it even or odd?
03:42:19 <Jafet> Obviously neither is provable in peano arithmetic
03:42:34 <Jafet> Unless adding the axiom made it inconsistent, in which case both are provable
03:42:50 <tswett> That doesn't seem obvious to me.
03:42:57 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> But let's ignore the fact that i doesn't exist. Is it even or odd?
03:43:00 <HackEgo> 874) <tswett> But let's ignore the fact that i doesn't exist. Is it even or odd?
03:43:05 <tswett> Maybe Goodstein's theorem is trivial for odd numbers or something.
03:43:36 <Jafet> You can prove that for any n, G(n) is a natural number
03:43:55 <Jafet> So you can't prove anything about i, because it doesn't exist
03:44:13 <tswett> Yeah, but what can you prove about it within the Peano axioms?
03:44:30 <Jafet> Nothing, it doesn't exist
03:44:47 <tswett> On the contrary, you can prove that it's greater than 3.
03:44:56 <Jafet> Okay, yes.
03:45:01 <tswett> Rather: that if it exists, it's greater than 3.
03:45:25 <Jafet> Since its existence is somehow an axiom, you don't need that bit
03:45:33 * tswett nods.
03:45:38 <Jafet> I guess it might be possible to prove it even or odd
03:45:47 <Jafet> Proving it to be both would be interesting
03:46:21 <tswett> That would mean that your system is inconsistent. And it isn't.
03:46:48 <Jafet> Well, it could be inconsistent
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03:46:58 <Jafet> I don't think anyone knows
03:47:08 <Bike> couldn't it only be inconsistent if peano was inconsistent?
03:47:19 <tswett> The Kirby–Paris theorem states that it is, in fact, consistent.
03:47:38 <Bike> or that...
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03:47:52 <Jafet> In the sense that it is neither provable nor unprovable in peano arithmetic
03:47:56 <elliott> well PA could be inconsistent
03:48:09 <Jafet> Not in the sense that adding it or its negation won't cause the new axioms to be inconsistent
03:48:32 <Jafet> Gentzen showed that PA is consistent, sort of
03:48:39 <elliott> yes the "sort of" is the rub
03:48:59 <elliott> Edward Nelson had an attempted proof of PA inconsistency recently
03:49:06 <elliott> but it turned out to be flawed
03:50:39 <tswett> elliott: do you know if you've exceeded my little brother in age yet?
03:50:55 <elliott> i don't know, how old is he
03:51:29 <elliott> "Theorem: Nelson's proof can't be right.
03:51:29 <elliott> Proof: The formal system within which Nelson carries out his proofs requires a theory of syntax. This theory is surely at least as strong as PRA. So:
03:51:29 <elliott> (1) If Nelson's proof is right, then it follows that Nelson's proof is wrong."
03:51:29 <elliott> heh
03:52:11 <Jafet> But you have consistent proofs in an inconsistent logic
03:52:22 <Jafet> You just have to be really careful, probably
03:52:43 <elliott> i wonder what would happen if PRA got proved inconsistent overnight
03:53:25 <Jafet> The total and irrevocable collapse of civilisation
03:53:28 <tswett> elliott: uh, I think he's like 17 or something.
03:53:36 <elliott> edward nelson is one of my favourite wacky mathematicians
03:53:41 <elliott> IIRC he doesn't believe exponentiation is total
03:53:54 <elliott> I forget his argument, although ISTR it's at least vaguely compelling
03:54:17 <tswett> Hey, Nelson is the guy that developed internal set theory.
03:54:38 <Jafet> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=103
03:54:52 <elliott> Jafet: yes! I love that anecdote
03:55:19 <shachaf> Everyone loves that anecdote.
03:59:35 <kmc> i love that anecdote
04:00:09 <kmc> ∀p. ♥(p, A)
04:02:17 <ion> > 2^100
04:02:22 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
04:02:32 <ion> > 2^100
04:02:37 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
04:02:40 <ion> k
04:02:41 <Bike> guess that proves that.
04:02:47 <ion> QED.
04:02:51 <shachaf> > 2^100
04:02:56 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
04:02:58 <shachaf> > 2^100
04:03:01 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:03:01 <lambdabot> Use -v to see a list of the...
04:03:06 <Bike> I have to ask what the time limit is...
04:03:07 <shachaf> > 2^100
04:03:11 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:03:11 <lambdabot> Use -v to see a list of the...
04:03:15 <shachaf> Something weird is going on with lambdabot recently.
04:03:16 <shachaf> > 1
04:03:19 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:03:19 <lambdabot> Use -v to see a list of the...
04:05:23 <tswett> > 1
04:05:27 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:05:27 <lambdabot> Use -v to see a list of the...
04:05:47 <Jafet> > ∀p. ♥(p, A)
04:05:52 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
04:08:28 <shachaf> > 1
04:08:32 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
04:08:35 <shachaf> > 2^100
04:08:38 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:08:38 <lambdabot> Use -v to see a list of the...
04:09:19 <tswett> 1267650600228229401496703205376
04:13:42 <elliott> thanks tswett
04:20:03 <Jafet> `run echo '2^100' | bc
04:20:06 <HackEgo> bash: bc: command not found
04:20:46 <Jafet> `run echo '2 100^p' | dc
04:20:49 <HackEgo> 1267650600228229401496703205376
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05:06:12 <kmc> this machine has sda1 through sdo1
05:06:16 <kmc> more than half way through the alphabet
05:08:25 <elliott> sdz9
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05:08:32 <elliott> what comes after sdz
05:08:36 <elliott> monqy: hey
05:08:52 <kmc> st:ds9
05:08:59 <monqy> hi
05:09:05 <kmc> is next i think
05:12:25 <Jafet> 9 STDs
05:12:58 <kmc> i'm not sure i can even name 9 STDs
05:13:15 <Jafet> You'd need to be as debauched as five Babylons
05:13:21 <kmc> -_-
05:13:32 <kmc> i mean if you have sex with someone who has a cold, you might get a cold
05:13:34 <kmc> does that count
05:14:02 <kmc> what about sexually transmitted crazy
05:14:45 <Jafet> I think it's only used for things that are transmitted only through sex
05:14:57 <kmc> well HIV is not transmitted only through sex
05:14:59 <Jafet> Like national secrets
05:15:13 <kmc> i think all STDs are possible to catch some other way
05:15:15 <kmc> if you get creative
05:15:30 <Jafet> Depends on how phallic you think needles are
05:15:57 <kmc> fair point (no pun intended (pun very much intended))
06:09:34 <shachaf> kmc: My flag shirt arrived today.
06:09:51 <shachaf> "Time Sensitive Material"
06:10:14 <shachaf> Seems a higher-quality shirt than the last one.
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09:52:19 <nooga> gur
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10:02:02 <elliott> gur
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10:14:53 <shachaf> rug
10:15:43 <shachaf> elliott: Please /nick to enlightening
10:15:46 <shachaf> And then back to elliott.
10:15:54 <shachaf> So my /query window gets renamed.
10:15:56 <shachaf> "thx"
10:16:13 <elliott> no
10:16:32 <shachaf> elliott: :'(
10:16:44 <shachaf> elliott: Alternatively, tell me how to rename an irssi /query window.
10:18:06 <elliott> idk
10:18:14 <elliott> try not using irssi
10:18:52 <shachaf> elliott: how about you try
10:18:56 <shachaf> BEING SAD
10:19:52 <elliott> no
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10:31:35 <Arc_Koen> so here's an idea for a language
10:31:54 <Arc_Koen> its only way of branching would be to use lazy evaluation of boolean expressions
10:32:31 <Arc_Koen> (for instance, assuming x always return true, "if (b) {x} else {y}" can be written "(b AND x) OR y")
10:33:01 <Arc_Koen> but this language would do its best to do minimalist; in particular, its only logic gate would be the universal logic gate XOR
10:34:15 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
10:34:21 <AnotherTest> Hello
10:36:37 <Arc_Koen> hello
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11:36:25 <elliott> mean: are you mean
11:37:23 <Jafet> /mode +median mean
11:37:23 <fizzie> Sounds likely; the average person is mean.
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11:41:10 <mean> =))
11:41:29 <mean> i noticed they don't have this mode
11:41:32 <mean> on freenode
11:41:35 <mean> like undernet
11:41:35 <mean> why
11:41:36 <mean> ?
11:42:15 <mean> to hide my ip
11:45:42 <elliott> sounds like you want a cloak
11:45:53 <elliott> you can get one for asking for one in #freenode
11:45:55 <elliott> meanwhile,
11:45:56 <elliott> `welcome mean
11:46:06 <HackEgo> mean: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:46:21 <elliott> (asking in #freenode after reading http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks, ofc)
11:46:32 <mean> yep
11:46:33 <mean> cloak
11:46:55 <mean> great
11:46:57 <mean> thanks
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12:04:17 <elliott> pikhq: hey you know things about wayland right
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12:35:14 <FreeFull> When I try to start thunar, I get (thunar:27545): GVFS-RemoteVolumeMonitor-WARNING **: invoking List() failed for type GProxyVolumeMonitorUDisks2: Method `List' returned type `(a(sssbbbbbbbbuasa{ss}sa{sv})a(sssssbbssa{ss}sa{sv})a(sssssbsassa{sv}))', but expected `(a(ssssbbbbbbbbuasa{ss}sa{sv})a(ssssssbbssa{ss}sa{sv})a(ssssssbsassa{sv}))' (g-io-error-quark, 13)
12:35:21 <FreeFull> Isn't that the weirdest error
12:40:05 <elliott> FreeFull: i think that's a dbus type thing
12:41:22 <fizzie> You seem to be expecting three s too many.
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13:02:05 <FreeFull> Logging out and back in fixed it
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13:14:26 <atriq> elliott, you were right
13:15:00 <fizzie> Elliott was right?! Uh, I mean, of course.
13:15:15 <elliott> atriq: but of course!
13:15:42 <atriq> Brogue is very fun
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13:39:18 <nooga_> i've finally found the best reason to use OS X
13:39:42 <atriq> Go on...?
13:39:48 <nooga_> ehttp://cl.ly/image/3N1V131H2Z1B
13:39:56 <nooga_> http://cl.ly/image/3N1V131H2Z1B
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13:42:45 <Jafet> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=50107
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14:40:13 <Arc_Koen> uh, how do I get rid of this horrible scroll bar if my <pre> </pre> is too large?
14:41:10 <AnotherTest> overflow:
14:41:17 <Arc_Koen> (that is, how do I tell mediawiki that it should let my browser display a newline if the line is too large for the screen)
14:41:17 <AnotherTest> using CSS, that is
14:41:56 <AnotherTest> oh, mediawiki
14:42:02 <AnotherTest> nevermind in that case
14:42:11 <Arc_Koen> thanks anyway :)
14:42:34 <Arc_Koen> of course I could insert newlines my self but that sounds like a bad way to deal with the problem
14:42:57 <Arc_Koen> especially if not everyone has the exact same screen I have
14:43:48 <fizzie> The obvious solution is of course to mandate same screens for everyone.
14:44:23 <Arc_Koen> yes I was thinking about sending a mail to the president of computers
14:45:17 <tswett> Lessee, which US federal executive department would that be?
14:45:52 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
14:46:12 <tswett> The Department of... Energy?
14:46:42 <ais523> don't the chamber of commerce run the internet?
14:46:58 <fizzie> Does US have a Department of Conservation of Energy?
14:47:18 <ais523> you don't normally need government departments to enforce the laws of physics
14:47:32 <fizzie> Just in case.
14:47:39 <tswett> That's have to be an agency of the Department of Things We Have No Control Over.
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14:48:15 <atriq> fizzie, nah, the Democrats are in power and they're liberal
14:48:25 <atriq> They've got a Department for the Liberation of Energy
14:48:33 <Arc_Koen> are you saying there the president of physics is not needed?
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14:48:45 <Arc_Koen> I don't think he would like hearing that
14:48:51 * pikhq_ votes for a Department of Entropy
14:51:04 <ais523> can we compromise on a department of enthalpy?
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14:53:53 <tswett> I demand that it be a Department of Enormity.
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14:54:03 <tswett> I will not settle for anything less.
14:54:31 <atriq> I wonder if I could apply for US citizenship on the basis that my gran was born in California
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14:55:04 <tswett> I wonder what would happen if I applied for US citizenship.
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15:02:58 <Arc_Koen> so, hum, anyone knows how to get rid of the scroll bar?
15:04:08 -!- nooga has joined.
15:05:39 <elliott> scroll bar?
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15:07:25 <Arc_Koen> elliott: if I have a long line in a <pre> block, it all stays in one line, with a horizontal scroll bar to see what's out of the screen
15:07:43 <Arc_Koen> instead of displaying automatic newlines as is done with normal text
15:08:28 <elliott> oh. ask oerjan :P
15:08:35 <elliott> oh i see
15:08:38 <elliott> right that is intentional
15:08:47 <elliott> you can change the pre-wrap style thing but i forget how right now
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15:22:07 <nooga> baa
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15:45:02 <atriq> Is "Sherlock" a real name?
15:45:17 <atriq> Oh, it appears to be a surname that exists
15:45:25 <atriq> So it could presumably be used as a first name
15:45:39 <atriq> (cf. Robson Green et al)
15:45:55 <atriq> (who incidentally was from Hexham)
15:46:42 <nooga_> hex ham
15:46:49 <atriq> `? hexham
15:46:52 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
15:47:11 <nooga_> i know what's Hexham, atriq
15:47:27 <atriq> Robson Green doesn't
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15:48:02 <Phantom__Hoover> what about at riq
15:48:05 <nooga> Octham
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16:09:41 <nooga> after playing with this PDP8/e
16:10:06 <nooga> I don't get how they could use it for something useful back then
16:18:18 <Jafet> Spoiled by Gordon Moore.
16:21:03 <nooga> he didn't really predict anything
16:22:21 <nooga> IMHO management divisions just learned about his predictions and ordered enginieers to fulfill them
16:25:05 <Jafet> He should have predicted faster chips then!
16:25:31 <nooga> yeah
16:26:18 <nooga> but there is another law
16:26:56 <nooga> that limits the speed of electrons :F
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16:29:50 <Phantom__Hoover> Also the size of components.
16:30:00 <Phantom__Hoover> I thought the size restrictions were the harsher ones.
16:30:10 <Phantom__Hoover> And the thermal ones too, I guess.
16:31:02 <Jafet> Smaller components get hotter because they have to move more electrons, which makes it harder to move electrons around, which makes it necessary to make the components smaller
16:31:10 <Jafet> It's a wonder that these chips ever get made
16:32:04 <Phantom__Hoover> Don't modern chips generate more power per unit volume than a nuclear reactor?
16:32:10 <Phantom__Hoover> s/power/heat/
16:32:42 <Jafet> Well, nuclear reactors can probably generate more if they turned all the safeties off
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16:43:29 <Arc_Koen> Jafet: in which case they would be called nuclear bombs
16:43:53 <Phantom__Hoover> Arc_Koen, no they wouldn't
16:44:22 <Arc_Koen> do you mean there would be nobody left to call them anything?
16:44:25 <Phantom__Hoover> nuclear reactors aren't even close to being able to properly explode.
16:44:30 <Arc_Koen> oh
16:44:48 <Arc_Koen> I thought if you removed the control bars the reaction would chain exponentially
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16:45:08 <Phantom__Hoover> Not enough to actually blow up.
16:45:20 <Arc_Koen> I'VE BEEN LIED TO
16:45:32 <Phantom__Hoover> They tend to melt through the containment vessel or cause heat-related explosions.
16:46:19 <kmc> the only reason you get so much power out of a nuclear bomb is that you shove all the stuff together at high speed in a very precise way
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16:46:37 <Phantom__Hoover> Not just that, the stuff has to be a lot purer than fuel.
16:46:45 <kmc> which keeps it from flying apart just long enough to go crazy
16:46:47 <kmc> yeah that's true
16:49:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Although a criticality excursion might count as a tiny nuclear explosion? Anyway, not enough to fit into what everyone thinks of as a nuclear explosion.
16:49:49 <kmc> yeah, the manhattan project had originally planned to use a gun-type bomb with plutonium
16:50:06 <kmc> but they couldn't make plutonium pure enough at scale to prevent it from spontaneously fizzling during the detonation process
16:50:31 <kmc> so they had to use the much more complex implosion design for Pu
16:54:14 <Arc_Koen> what if you mix naquida in the fuel?
16:54:47 <Phantom__Hoover> depends, is it fissile
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16:57:07 <Arc_Koen> I honestly have no idea. They usually just link it to some random ship they found, using copper and a lot of tape, and it generates enough power to travel across the galaxy (and sometimes outside)
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18:01:39 <Phantom__Hoover> I have an email notifying me of a "female movable feast".
18:02:49 <FreeFull> o.o
18:03:22 <Phantom__Hoover> It's run by RBS so doubtless the name will be the most interesting thing about it.
18:03:39 -!- nooga has joined.
18:04:42 <nooga> what?
18:05:12 <Phantom__Hoover> <Phantom__Hoover> I have an email notifying me of a "female movable feast".
18:05:14 <Phantom__Hoover> that's what
18:06:39 <nooga> what's "female movable feast"?
18:07:44 <Phantom__Hoover> no idea
18:07:53 <Phantom__Hoover> It involves investment banking though.
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19:23:35 <zzo38> Do you know what speed the ARMv2a-compatible Amber core can run at? Do you know how to make some of kind of modifications such as hardwiring the cacheable areas and supervisor areas and so on?
19:27:52 <zzo38> I might need to make the computer at first using FPGA, later on it may be replaced with open-source FPGA and/or ASIC components.
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19:43:42 <zzo38> Do you like this chess/shogi variants? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSkirachesskiras
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19:52:50 <Arc_Koen> If your opponent's Kira is a knight's move away or one space orthogonally away
19:53:03 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: what do you mean by "one space orthogonally away"?
19:54:48 <Arc_Koen> also I don't understand the thing about double wins
19:57:38 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: I mean what is sometimes called the "Wazir"; from c3, it can capture on c2, c4, b3, and d3, for example.
19:58:09 <Arc_Koen> ok
19:58:21 <zzo38> Double wins is just for scoring, you count as 2 wins instead of 1
19:58:31 <Arc_Koen> yes but when does it occur?
19:58:50 <Arc_Koen> from what I understand, you win when both special pieces of your opponents are out
19:58:59 <zzo38> yES.
19:59:38 <Arc_Koen> so when do you double-win?
20:00:14 <zzo38> But if you win due to your opponent's L dies from your Kira when they have no Kira, then you win, this is a special win count as double. Same if your L capture opponent's Kira when they have no L, it is win so it count as a double win.
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20:00:45 <zzo38> Is this understandable to you, or not?
20:03:23 <Arc_Koen> well yes but it that case it's only possible to double-win, is it not?
20:03:48 <Arc_Koen> I mean, a win occurs when both L and Kira are dead... but for that, you have to kill one of the two, then the second
20:04:03 <Arc_Koen> and you're saying that when the second dies, if the first was already dead, it's a double-win
20:04:10 <zzo38> Yes, in those cases it is only possible to double win; if the second is captured normally though, then it is a single win.
20:04:10 <Arc_Koen> so it looks to me like it's always a double-win
20:04:19 <Arc_Koen> oh
20:04:21 <kmc> 'Did U know that 1-877-SAF-RAIL dials directly to our Transit Police dispatch center? Put it in ur contacts. #potontrain #crimesinprogress'
20:04:24 <kmc> HASHTAG POT ON TRAIN
20:04:35 <Arc_Koen> I might be confusing "killing" and "capturing"
20:05:49 <Arc_Koen> so what exactly is the propoer vocabulary? "killing" for the death note, "capturing" for regular chess captures, and "eliminating" when not making the distinction?
20:06:12 <zzo38> I suppose so.
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20:07:13 <zzo38> I can add that to the notes section.
20:10:00 <Arc_Koen> ohhhh I get it
20:10:30 <Arc_Koen> if you eliminate your opponent's second special piece using your special power, then it's a double-win
20:10:37 <Arc_Koen> did I get it right?
20:13:32 <zzo38> Yes.
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20:28:30 <kmc> '...physics doesn't really need sophisticated stats (unlike biology and medicine) because your data isn't crap. Nobody approves a billion-dollar supercollider because somebody was just slightly able to exclude the null hypothesis at two sigma with a chi-square. People do approve billion-dollar pills that way.'
20:29:36 <pikhq> Isn't the frontier of physics actually based in sophisticated stats? :)
20:30:15 <Bike> don't anger the nerds
20:30:28 <Bike> "rational drug design" being a distinct thing is pretty funny, though.
20:30:48 <kmc> who's angering what nerds
20:31:12 <kmc> i think in physics you are just expected to get more data until your conclusions are relatively clear
20:33:13 <pikhq> kmc: Well, yes, physics does expect a ton of data. The higgs boson result recently was "5 sigma confirmation of the existence of *a* boson that happens to be consistent with the Higgs boson hypothesis.", no?
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20:50:25 <kmc> yeah i think so
20:50:30 <kmc> i
20:51:01 <kmc> it sounds like you are emphasizing a distinction between "the higgs boson" and "a boson that happens to be consistent with the higgs boson" and I'm not sure that's a meaningful distinction
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20:52:14 <zzo38> I don't think they would be different anyways; if it has the properties of the Higgs boson then it must be the Higgs boson isn't it?
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20:52:30 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, sure it is.
20:53:26 <Phantom__Hoover> If you detected an unknown particle and you only knew it had a charge of -1 it would be consistent with an electron, but it could well be something else.
20:53:52 <zzo38> Yes the electron has more properties than just its electric charge.
20:54:13 <kmc> fair enough
20:54:41 <pikhq> kmc: I'm saying that the physicists themselves are making that distinction. In the name of being careful.
21:07:29 <kmc> 'What does a $1.6 million explosion sound like? We'll have to ask Fisker Automotive. Sixteen of the luxury carmaker's $100,000 Karma hybrid sports sedans caught fire, blew up and then burned to a crisp after being submerged during Hurricane Sandy. '
21:17:14 <ion> ‘Not a lot of people know this, but the “B” in Benoît B. Mandelbrot’s name stands for “Benoît B. Mandelbrot”.’
21:18:44 <pikhq> ♥ Mandelbrot
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21:42:57 <kmc> if only Unicode had a Mandelbrot Set character :/
21:43:40 <Arc_Koen> pikhq: actually for one of the two experiments it was actually 4.9 sigma :)
21:50:32 <Arc_Koen> (which is not really relevant at all, except very enjoyable for those who were part of the other experiment that got 5.1)
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23:57:57 <zzo38> I have had idea before, of a + | ^ operator (these being the C operators), which is allowed only if all are the same result, and its opposite being the - &~ ^ operator.
23:58:15 <zzo38> It could be usable for optimization in some cases, I guess.
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00:08:35 <zzo38> Can you make a Verilog/VHDL/PALASM/other hardware description languages implementation of Checkout?
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01:22:46 <shachaf> «I'm not a real programmer. I throw together things until it works then I move on. The real programmers will say "Yeah it works but you're leaking memory everywhere. Perhaps we should fix that." I’ll just restart Apache every 10 requests.» -- Rasmus Lerdorf
01:22:50 <shachaf> «We restart HN every 5 or 6 days, or it gets slow (memory leaks).» -- Paul Graham
01:22:54 <shachaf> Coïncidence?
01:24:17 <kmc> haha
01:24:35 <kmc> real programmers indeed
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01:57:35 <ais523\unfoog> esolang idea: an esolang where leaking memory and having allocations fail is the only way to do conditionals
01:59:36 <zzo38> ais523\unfoog: OK, let's write that in esolang list of ideas.
02:00:22 <zzo38> I have been told that LLVM does not target old ARM architectures. It is not too much of a problem, since GCC can still target them.
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02:02:24 <zzo38> ARM are still called RISC even though the new ones are more complicated.
02:02:43 <Bike> do they have an "evaluate polynomial" instruction?
02:03:13 <zzo38> I don't know, but I don't think it has something like that; only I know VAX has evaluate polynomial, I think.
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02:06:35 <kmc> RISC just means "not x86" now ;P
02:09:46 <Slereah> I program in notx86 all the time!
02:09:54 <Slereah> notx86 is the best language
02:13:43 <zzo38> kmc: Why did they do that?
02:14:19 <pikhq> RISC is in the name of ARM though.
02:15:34 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know but still the new ones are more complicated, having not just one but many instruction sets, and various other features added on
02:16:16 <Bike> but it's still "reduced" from the vax, so it's all good
02:16:50 <pikhq> In modern parlance "RISC" refers to ISAs that use a load/store architecture, no?
02:17:28 <kmc> well i would say it refers to a whole set of architectural features
02:17:33 <pikhq> i.e. without really ludicrously complex addressing modes, like x86 is known for...
02:17:43 <kmc> ARM has some fairly complex addressing modes
02:17:51 <pikhq> Hrm, right.
02:17:51 <kmc> and x86's aren't that complex
02:18:01 <kmc> ARM has pre/post increment/decrement which x86 lacks
02:18:27 <kmc> but x86 lets you do things like INC a memory address, which RISC processors typically avoid
02:18:39 <pikhq> And has a strcpy opcode.
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02:18:54 <kmc> though you need something like that for concurrency primitives
02:19:05 <kmc> atomic test-and-set is also a memory read and a write together in the same instruction
02:20:35 <zzo38> 6502 also has increment a memory address (it lacks a increment accumulator instruction!), and VAX even has increment immediate.
02:21:00 <Bike> increment immediate, really? is it self-modifying, then?
02:23:22 <zzo38> Yes, if the program is stored in RAM it may, I suppose, do so. It sets the flags too so it might be useful for that purpose too.
02:24:43 <Bike> dang.
02:30:45 <zzo38> (RogueVM also can use (non-short) immediates as a destination, by using the PC post-increment addressing mode. I think this is similar to how VAX does it.)
02:33:02 <zzo38> 6502 does have increment X register and increment Y register, but cannot increment A register; but, instruction for addition is only usable with A register.
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02:43:03 <kmc> by that standard, AMD64 also has store immediate, increment immediate, etc.
02:43:56 <kmc> incb (%rip); .byte 0xc2
02:44:55 <shachaf> rip %rip
02:46:00 <kmc> ARM is interesting because they added various features specifically to combat weaknesses of RISC
03:01:49 <kmc> i think increment/decrement address modes are an example of that
03:02:18 <kmc> otherwise you have to load, add, store, and it just sucks
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03:08:10 <shachaf> kmc: That fourth operation is the worst.
03:21:25 <kmc> the sucking one?
03:21:40 <kmc> hm but what i said isn't very accurate
03:21:46 <kmc> because your counters should be in registers anyway
03:27:59 <kmc> i am the wrost
03:28:35 <kmc> i watched Star Trek: TNG for the first time the other day
03:29:09 <pikhq> Fair warning, TNG honestly varies from awesome to suck.
03:29:47 <pikhq> How'd you like whatever episode you saw?
03:30:14 <kmc> we had some expert nerds select a 3-episode cycle
03:30:21 <kmc> well okay "select 3 episodes"
03:30:55 <pikhq> That probably helps.
03:30:56 <ion> I watched all of Star Trek a few years ago. It took about a year.
03:31:10 <ion> (in chronological order)
03:31:15 <kmc> we watched "Clues", "The Measure of a Man", and "The Inner Light"
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03:31:43 <pikhq> Perfect selection.
03:32:17 <kmc> i didn't much care for the second one
03:32:24 <kmc> "clues" was good and "inner light" was great
03:32:59 <pikhq> "The Inner Light" is often considered the best episode of TNG. It is inarguably a great one.
03:33:15 <kmc> yeah it's pretty cool
03:33:24 <pikhq> That selection is overall great for giving you a feel of what the series is like.
03:33:31 <kmc> excellent
03:33:38 <kmc> i have the whole series stashed away on a hard drive somewhere
03:33:42 <kmc> maybe it's time for a marathon
03:34:42 <kmc> "clues" had a cool idea but the structure was kind of weak
03:35:01 <pikhq> Beware: season 1 sucks horribly, and season 2 varies ("Measure of a Man" is one of the better ones)...
03:35:23 <kmc> they don't really get very far in unraveling the mystery before data is just like "ok, here's what happened"
03:35:37 <shachaf> Should I watch these?
03:36:18 <pikhq> The show really got into its stride after Roddenberry's death, TBH...
03:36:18 <kmc> you should watch "The Inner Light" at least
03:36:23 <pikhq> shachaf: In short, yes.
03:37:02 <pikhq> Especially The Inner Light. Hugo Award winner.
03:37:30 <ion> A brilliant series of TNG remixes (to be watched in order): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9CCCF2C09E92679B
03:38:05 <pikhq> One of three Trek episodes so awarded. (the other being "The Menagerie", the only TOS two-parter, and "All Good Things...", the TNG finale)
03:38:17 <pikhq> ("All Good Things..." is an amazing episode, but don't watch it yet.)
03:39:00 <pikhq> kmc: Another one I recommend is "Darmok".
03:40:36 <ion> Has everyone watched Babylon 5?
03:40:47 <pikhq> No; it's in my giant queue
03:41:32 <shachaf>
03:42:12 <shachaf>
03:43:01 <ion> It’s a rare show in that they had a great five-year story in advance instead of inventing the story as they go.
03:43:21 <ion> One of my absolute favorites.
03:43:56 <kmc> that's cool
03:43:58 <kmc> i should watch that too
03:44:20 <pikhq> kmc: You may also enjoy DS9. There might be a modicum of enjoyment from TOS and TAS. VOY and ENT will make you want to drink all the alcohol.
03:45:06 <kmc> that sounds hazardous
03:45:19 <pikhq> It's better than remembering.
03:46:24 <ion> B5 can seem to start a little slowly (especially since you don’t realize all the apparently insignificant things that are preludes to big events later on) but after watching enough of it you’ll surely find it worth it.
03:46:37 <ion> don’t realize the first time you watch it, that is
03:47:00 <pikhq> And the episode "Threshold" will make you omit the middlemen and simply give yourself a brainectomy.
03:48:48 <ion> Be sure to watch Star Trek: The Animated Series, the pinnacle of the franchise.
03:49:07 <pikhq> I wouldn't say that.
03:49:19 <pikhq> It's decently written, but the animation is hilariously bad.
03:49:42 <coppro> pikhq: is threshold the one that got retconned out instantly?
03:49:44 <pikhq> It also does weird things to the setting if you accept it as canon.
03:49:46 <pikhq> coppro: Yes.
03:50:21 <ion> M’Ress making random noises while talking http://youtu.be/jjGhYexrJ0c
03:50:21 <pikhq> Among other things, TAS imports parts of Known Space into the setting.
03:51:13 <pikhq> Also, the coloring is sad. ... The guy in charge of chosing the colors of things was literally color blind.
03:52:37 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdQwE6VK1hg
03:52:40 <coppro> fan
03:52:41 <coppro> fucking
03:52:42 <coppro> tastic
03:53:53 <ion> Haha, i had forgotten Threshold was *that* episode. Yeah, it was horrible. :-D
04:06:41 <kmc> aw, they're not making that spinoff of The Office starring Dwight and his wacky Nazi uncle, after all
04:07:02 <kmc> i was looking forward to finding out just how bad it would be
04:08:41 <ion> I have everything from S06E20 still in the queue.
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04:12:03 <krzysz00> I wrote this over the last few days. Your thoughts? https://github.com/krzysz00/singl
04:13:28 <kmc> i see a spec for a language but not a high-level overview of why it's interesting
04:13:35 <kmc> good languages (esoteric and otherwise) usually have both
04:13:57 <krzysz00> You have a point there, kmc.
04:15:29 <zzo38> krzysz00: It is OK, I think. Still you should also have what kmc request too
04:19:23 <shachaf> I have an esolang but its spec is uncomputable.
04:19:33 <shachaf> tswett: You know what else is uncomputable?
04:37:19 <tswett> All non-standard models of the natural numbers?
04:43:44 <kmc> somebody's mom?
04:49:49 <coppro> shachaf: the busy beaver function?
04:50:23 <Slereah> Busy beaver is very computable
04:50:28 <coppro> Slereah: no it isn't
04:50:37 <Slereah> Isn't it?
04:50:43 <Slereah> It has been a while
04:50:43 <coppro> no
04:51:07 <coppro> suppose you had a TM which could compute busy beaver
04:51:46 <coppro> then you could create a machine which took as input another machine, determined its size, and ran it for BB(n) steps; if it halts, then it accepts, otherwise it fails.
04:51:51 <coppro> then you've solved the halting problem
04:53:21 <kmc> in fact this demonstrates that any upper bound for BB(n) is uncomputable
04:53:31 <kmc> so we can say that it grows faster than any computable function
04:53:33 <kmc> which is kinda crazy
04:54:15 <Bike> so, how are exact values (for BB on really simple machines) known?
04:54:28 <Bike> or are those just lower bounds?
04:54:36 <kmc> some of them are exact
04:55:05 <kmc> you enumerate all the different turing machines of that size and prove that they halt or don't
04:55:23 <Bike> isn't that a procedure, then?
04:55:47 <kmc> no because you can search for larger and larger proofs forever
04:56:22 <coppro> exactly
04:56:26 <kmc> that is, given the size of the machine, you have no computable bound on the size of a proof that it halts or doesn't
04:56:40 <coppro> Given a fixed n, you can compute BB up to n
04:56:49 <coppro> but no turing machine can compute BB for arbitrary n
04:56:58 <shachaf> FSVO "you"
04:57:21 <Bike> well, that's a bit clearer. The whole thing always sort of confused me.
04:57:46 <Bike> of course I have a book with a graph of the kolmogorov complexity of numbers as a function, maybe I should focus on that confusingness first.
05:03:48 <kmc> ohhh i think there is something deeper going on here
05:04:45 <kmc> say i have a turing machine M. in one thread i run M, and in another thread I enumerate all possible proofs that M doesn't halt, and check them one by one
05:04:52 <kmc> why doesn't this solve the halting problem?
05:04:55 <kmc> i think the answer is
05:05:27 <kmc> for any (r.e.) axiomatic system of talking about turing machines, there is some machine which doesn't halt, such that you can't prove it doesn't halt within your system
05:05:36 <kmc> basically by gödel's incompleteness theorem
05:05:53 <pikhq> Bahahah.
05:06:12 <kmc> (or else the system is inconsistent, but in that case it doesn't agree with the meta-theoretic definition of "halt" and so is useless)
05:06:42 <coppro> How do you enumerate the possible proofs that M doesn't halt?
05:07:24 <ion> [minBound..]
05:07:25 <kmc> the proofs are just strings in some formal system; you can enumerate strings easily enough
05:08:08 <coppro> But there are infinite such proofs
05:08:43 <kmc> sure, but they are recursively enumerable
05:08:54 <coppro> yeah, but how do you know your system will halt?
05:09:07 <kmc> because every machine either halts or doesn't (on a given input)
05:09:14 <kmc> so either there exists a computation history showing it to halt
05:09:19 <kmc> or there exists a finite proof that it doesn't
05:09:27 <kmc> but it's the second statement which is wrong
05:09:30 <coppro> yeah
05:09:44 <kmc> because even though the "proof exists" informally, you can't nail it down in any particular formal system
05:09:48 <coppro> not even
05:09:54 <kmc> whichever formal system you choose, some machine will escape you
05:09:56 <pikhq> coppro: Either the machine M halts, or the search for a proof that M doesn't halt, halts.
05:09:58 <coppro> example: write a TM which enumerates theorems of ZFC and terminates when it finds a proof or disproof of CH
05:10:16 <pikhq> Except that by Gödel's incompleteness theorem, the second is not necessarily the case.
05:10:20 <pikhq> Yes, you get the idea.
05:10:33 <pikhq> I think?
05:10:46 <kmc> yeah, i'm not sure if that is the same thing or different
05:10:47 <Bike> so any r.e. axiomatic system has turing machine halting proofs independent of it?
05:10:48 <coppro> err, sorry, a proof of CH
05:11:14 <pikhq> Bike: Seems like it.
05:11:19 <coppro> hmm... actually, that doesn't quite work
05:11:36 <coppro> but yeah, you can find a TM for which halting is independent of your axiom system
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05:13:41 <Bike> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=710 maybe this is what I'm thinking of
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05:34:09 <kmc> do you know which form of transit is still operating well in New York? boats!
05:34:21 <kmc> even the IKEA boat is already back in service
05:34:51 <Bike> ikea has a boat?
05:35:21 <kmc> yes
05:35:30 <Bike> rad
05:36:26 <kmc> the ikea in NYC is somewhat inconvenient by bus or train
05:36:31 <kmc> but it's right on the water
05:36:45 <kmc> so they run a free shuttle boat
05:37:29 <Bike> clever
05:37:38 <Bike> good to have cheap furniture during the apocalypse
05:38:30 <kmc> except then people started using it for commutes and whatever
05:38:37 <kmc> so now it's $5 to go to IKEA, but you get a $5 gift card
05:38:43 <kmc> and you have to show a receipt on the way back
05:39:00 <kmc> this is like the express buses to atlantic city that make you buy casino chips with your bus ticket
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08:20:51 <shubshub> Hey guys guess what
08:21:36 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison <-- My new programming language
08:22:52 <shubshub> I finished making my new programming language (Sort of enough for release)
08:23:11 <shubshub> Just adding a few more things before I release 1.1
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08:28:20 <nooga> is this a joke shubshub
08:28:57 <Jafet> Dude, mediafire is legit
08:31:45 <nooga> shubshub: couldn't you just paste help contents onto the wiki page?
08:34:22 <shubshub> Maybe in next release
08:34:37 <shubshub> Alright fine ill post help on wiki page
08:34:50 <shubshub> ill also update it to 1.1
08:42:56 <nooga> you're supposed to briefly explain what the language is
08:45:27 <shubshub> Im going to
08:56:48 <shubshub> Updated along with help on wiki page
08:56:49 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
09:01:36 <shubshub> nooga I updatred it
09:05:17 <nooga> uh
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09:18:39 <nooga> not sure if troll or just a beginner ;o
09:20:19 <shubshub> why whats wrong with it
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09:22:32 <nooga> read other entries, like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda , http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge
09:22:40 <nooga> and then read yours again
09:23:31 <shubshub> meh ill edit it later
09:26:58 <nooga> it's not only the description
09:27:12 <nooga> what makes your language interesting?
09:31:49 <shubshub> the fact that it uses smasller commands]
09:44:01 <nooga> smaller than what?
09:44:03 <nooga> python?
09:46:44 <shubshub> yea
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09:47:52 <nooga> what's the execution model?
09:49:28 <shubshub> what do u mean?
09:49:38 <shubshub> -+
09:53:44 <shubshub> What do u mean by execution model
09:59:28 <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, but did you actually write if x == 'a' or x == 'A': y = str(1); elif x == 'b' or x == 'B': y = str(2); ... elif x == 'z' or x == 'Z': y = str(26)?
10:00:51 <shubshub> yes
10:01:14 <shubshub> im typed up the entire language by hand
10:01:42 <shubshub> anyway how did you get the py file I only posted the pyc file
10:02:38 <fizzie> I decompiled it; to be honest, the urllib.urlretrieve and ['runas', '/user:Administrator', x] parts seen in strings file.pyc made me a bit uncomfortable.
10:02:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:02:48 <shubshub> ah
10:03:39 <ion> Why would you release only the pyc file?
10:03:54 <shubshub> Idk cuz I didnt want it to be Open source
10:04:09 <ion> How is that useful?
10:04:18 <shubshub> why not
10:05:58 <shubshub> I added the runas admin feature for something I was doing at school
10:08:04 <shubshub> I Am Al
10:08:35 <shubshub> i am also the creator of another language called !!!Batch and also NumericBatch both of which are very unstable
10:13:00 <shubshub> anyway gtg
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11:49:49 <russkiyhuy> hello! preved!
11:51:21 <russkiyhuy> pidorasy present today?
11:52:57 <russkiyhuy> everybody ebanod dniwe?
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14:22:35 <ion> A Slower Speed of Light Official Trailer — MIT Game Lab http://youtu.be/uu7jA8EHi_0
14:26:49 -!- elliott has joined.
14:31:14 <kmc> preved medved
14:31:54 <elliott> x
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14:33:46 <elliott> @ask monqy One day I was Bored and Decided to learn how to program in python so I went and watched some youtube videos however I didn't just want to program in Python I wanted to form my own language perhaps an easier No wait more simplistic version of Python with smaller command names And easier programming so here it is The Poison Programming Language
14:33:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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14:34:39 <ion> Verily.
14:34:47 <atriq> Verily indeed.
14:34:48 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:34:52 <atriq> Oh, sweet
14:35:04 <ion> Verily indeed indubitably.
14:35:13 <atriq> I...
14:35:17 <kmc> Oh Wow it's Shubshub
14:35:19 <elliott> did you get good messages
14:35:20 <atriq> I had seen all those messages before
14:35:32 <elliott> kmc: shubshub: the best?
14:35:39 <elliott> should i make poison the featured language
14:36:02 <atriq> elliott, I did see them and I downloaded Brogue and I am playing it RIGHT NOW
14:36:05 <atriq> Well, not right now
14:36:08 <atriq> But I have it open
14:36:24 <ion> clear() - Clear the command line screen on a Linux Computer
14:36:26 <ion> cls() - Clear the command line screen on a Windows Computer
14:36:39 <elliott> ion: it's cross-platform
14:36:42 <elliott> like java
14:36:51 <fizzie> ion: def clear(): os.system('clear') def cls(): os.system('cls')
14:36:53 <atriq> ion, a specific Linux Computer, or just any
14:37:35 <Jafet> We need languages that let us clear other people's screens
14:37:46 <fizzie> The mathes eqaution commands just print the result; now I need to manually copy the intermediate result to add three numbers. :/
14:38:08 <elliott> fizzie: sounds better than mathematica
14:39:00 <Arc_Koen> elliott: what about http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Ozone#Interp ?
14:39:22 <elliott> Arc_Koen: apparently i said something in 2008 and then didn't do it
14:39:29 <Arc_Koen> :(
14:39:34 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I hate that I have to write 1 + 2 and then Out[1] + 3 to add three numbers there. :/
14:40:05 <elliott> wouldn't it be 1 + Out[3]
14:40:22 <fizzie> Maybe it's that.
14:40:31 <elliott> since 1+2 is 3 iirc
14:40:52 <ion> 1+2 ≈ FileNotFound
14:41:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/cCjC look I'm pulling results from the future.
14:42:06 <tswett> forall x: def x(): os.system('x')
14:42:33 <elliott> fizzie: Ohh, right, Out is an array.
14:42:42 <Arc_Koen> ocaml doesn't like me :(
14:42:55 <elliott> fizzie: It should automagically recalculate the display of the Out[n]s each time you cause them to change.
14:43:01 <elliott> Like a spreadsheet.
14:43:18 <fizzie> I suppose the gooey version can do some stuff like that.
14:43:27 <Arc_Koen> I'm trying to implement circlefuck using the circular buffer module I wrote some time ago but I need two pointers to the same buffer and ocaml won't let me do that
14:44:28 <Arc_Koen> if I try including the module and adding functions to it, they don't work because they're not allowed to access the internal structure
14:47:16 <ion> 1.9.2p318 :001 > def method_missing(cmd, *args) system(cmd.to_s, *args) end; echo "foo"
14:47:18 <ion> foo
14:47:54 <kmc> http://amoffat.github.com/sh/ is like that
14:47:56 <kmc> and is wonderful
14:48:29 <elliott> Arc_Koen: have you considered changing the module
14:48:43 <Arc_Koen> well, yes, I could rewrite it all
14:48:45 <ion> self = sys.modules[__name__]
14:48:46 <ion> sys.modules[__name__] = SelfWrapper(self)
14:48:48 <ion> I like the kluge.
14:48:57 <Arc_Koen> but is that really a good idea?
14:49:14 <Arc_Koen> my first idea was to add a function "shallow copy" or something to it
14:49:30 <Arc_Koen> but it causes problem if you try to pop an item that's the front item from a copy
14:49:51 <ion> A European shallow or an African shallow?
14:49:52 <elliott> Arc_Koen: all i hear is yet more arguments against mutable state :p
14:50:27 <Arc_Koen> do you have any idea to avoid using them?
14:51:30 <elliott> well presumably you could use a purely-functional data structure instead... maybe for circular things that's a bit of a pain though, iirc Okasaki's /Purely Functional Data Structures/ extends the language with basic lazy values for things like that
14:51:45 <elliott> (though I suppose you could implement them easily as (() -> a) if you're not worried about performance)
14:52:02 <elliott> that said there is probably some solution to your problem that does not involve rewriting your program
14:52:07 <elliott> but I don't know OCaml, so who knows what it is
14:52:18 <atriq> When I was on holiday I wrote a Hunt the Wumpus clone
14:52:21 <atriq> It's awful
14:52:24 <kmc> you can implement them as (() -> a) with good performance if you can close over a mutable cell
14:52:40 <elliott> kmc: right
14:52:47 <elliott> I guess that is nicer than exposing the mutable cell in the type
14:52:51 <kmc> yes
14:52:57 <elliott> which was my first idea
14:53:04 <Jafet> You can write it in fucking C
14:53:07 <kmc> <3 functional imperative programming
14:53:17 <kmc> i would like to learn Fucking C
14:53:21 <Jafet> Fucking C is like system F, except you're forced to be more explicit.
14:53:21 <kmc> is there a relevant ISO standard
14:53:21 <atriq> Jafet, how is fucking C different from regular C?
14:53:26 <kmc> ISO-Fucking-9899
14:53:31 <Arc_Koen> what is it you call (() -> a)?
14:53:37 <kmc> Arc_Koen: The Aristocrats
14:53:39 <Arc_Koen> replacing the data structure with a function?
14:53:40 <Jafet> Arc_Koen: haskell
14:53:53 <elliott> Arc_Koen: I guess it is (unit -> a) in OCaml
14:53:58 <elliott> or I guess (unit -> 'a) even
14:53:59 <atriq> Arc_Koen, I think it's thunking, but everyone's gonna shout at me because I'm wrong
14:54:08 <elliott> I think it's thunking about thinking
14:54:21 <fizzie> Who'd've thunk it.
14:54:52 <elliott> Arc_Koen: anyway I was just talking about the implementation of a simple lazy value
14:55:07 <elliott> to use for implementing something circular-ish in a purely-functional manner
14:55:13 <elliott> though I suppose a circular buffer could work as a zipper or something instead
14:55:19 <Arc_Koen> well I still have no idea what you mean
14:55:25 <elliott> that's ok
14:55:35 <Arc_Koen> a zipper would be fine if there weren't two iterators
14:55:40 <Arc_Koen> I mean, two pointers
14:56:25 <atriq> data BiZipper a = BiZipper [a] a [a] (Maybe a) [a]?
14:56:42 <elliott> atriq: yuk
14:56:48 <Arc_Koen> a a a
14:56:56 <atriq> Yes, that is the worst
14:57:17 <Arc_Koen> is Maybe a constructor similar to ocaml's None / Some option type?
14:57:31 <atriq> Probably
14:57:42 <atriq> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
14:57:58 <Arc_Koen> type 'a option = None | Some of 'a
14:58:29 <atriq> elliott, there are at least three birthday parties in Hexham tomorrow. What's the word on the street?
14:58:55 <elliott> is there word
14:59:03 <quintopia> yes
14:59:08 <quintopia> it is
14:59:14 <quintopia> "slow"
14:59:26 <elliott> but i dont know the word
14:59:30 <atriq> One of them's a sort of surprise party for me
14:59:34 <atriq> And I want to know more details
14:59:45 <atriq> Except I don't actually
14:59:50 <elliott> ok well atriq
14:59:52 <elliott> i can tell you this
14:59:59 <elliott> if there is ever word on the street i know literally none of it
15:00:14 <elliott> i may, in fact, be the single worst person in hexham to ask about the word on the street
15:00:15 <elliott> so
15:00:16 <elliott> congratulations
15:00:18 <quintopia> the word on the street is "slow"
15:00:24 <quintopia> its a school zone
15:00:42 <fizzie> elliott: Are you 'in' in the Hexham party scene, though?
15:01:27 <elliott> fizzie: what is the opposite of in these days
15:01:33 <atriq> "out"
15:01:42 <elliott> right I am "out"
15:02:55 <quintopia> start your own private party scene. then everyone else will be out and you will be in
15:03:11 <elliott> what if i get lonely
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15:03:40 <quintopia> then little has changed
15:04:12 <elliott> :'(
15:09:47 <ion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_with_bushy_tails
15:10:39 <elliott> nice
15:16:09 <atriq> A mysterious package arrived for me when I was in Ibiza
15:16:18 <atriq> I have to go down to the post office depot thing to pick it up
15:20:12 <kmc> how was Ibiza?
15:20:17 <atriq> Boring
15:22:31 <kmc> that sucks
15:25:16 <elliott> kmc: you know what else sucks?
15:25:42 <kmc> PHP?
15:25:49 <elliott> everything
15:26:46 <ion> ∀x. x sucks
15:26:57 <atriq> Hence PHP sucks
15:27:20 <Jafet> PHP used to be a thing, but is it still a thing?
15:27:25 <atriq> Yes
15:27:27 <coppro> it is sadly still a thing
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15:32:36 <quintopia> earth sucks
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15:34:29 <elliott> `welcome girafee
15:34:40 <HackEgo> girafee: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:37:02 <atriq> You know, we might be able to do quicker welcome messages if we didn't rely on a bot starting up a linux environment on one of Gregor's computers every time
15:37:38 <elliott> pfft
15:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I confused immersion with orientation today and I think I made a complete tit of myself :(
15:38:09 <coppro> do you feel blue?
15:38:18 <kmc> atriq: that reminds me of boltzmann brains
15:38:34 <atriq> kmc, that means nothing to me
15:38:47 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, what's your sexual immersion
15:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (ah, vienna!)
15:39:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: don't you always make a complete tit of yourself
15:39:22 <atriq> elliott, no, that's me
15:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, homeomorphic.
15:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (Pedant's note, I couldn't be bothered doing that properly.)
15:40:41 <Jafet> Hrm, Aphrodite?
15:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, sometimes cauchy sequences on the tit don't converge.
15:41:31 <Jafet> You just need to apply the squeeze test
15:42:22 <elliott> these jokes are dumb guys
15:42:24 <Phantom_Hoover> To see if the tit is contractible?
15:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you would know dumb wouldn't you??
15:46:03 <elliott> no
15:54:12 <kmc> atriq: what did you do in Ibiza?
15:54:22 <atriq> kmc, very little
15:54:37 <atriq> It was too windy to go to the beach and the wrong part of the island to party
15:55:05 <kmc> well... that sucks
15:55:11 <atriq> Anyone want to see how much I suck at programming?
16:08:27 <kmc> apparently not
16:11:03 <Arc_Koen> show us
16:11:07 <Arc_Koen> let us be compleasant
16:11:36 * hagb4rd turns the light down low
16:12:19 <atriq> It's time to GET A PACKAGE
16:12:27 <atriq> http://hpaste.org/77161
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16:17:22 <Arc_Koen> the monster is called a wumpus
16:17:30 <Arc_Koen> and where are the bats and the pits?
16:18:42 <Arc_Koen> also I don't know if that's how it worked with the original game, but I believe it's better if the room numbers are attributed randomly
16:18:56 <Arc_Koen> so that when you start you don't already know what leads where
16:20:02 <Arc_Koen> and last thing my comments are probably irrelevant as I can't read haskell
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16:46:31 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1136.html
17:03:36 -!- atriq has joined.
17:03:38 <atriq> Back
17:04:33 <elliott> atriq: don't use data.array it sucks
17:04:35 <elliott> - my helpful advice
17:08:46 <atriq> Okay
17:08:50 <atriq> Elaborate please
17:09:01 <atriq> And also give thoughts on the mysterious package I recieved
17:10:21 -!- Bike has joined.
17:10:31 <elliott> it sucks
17:10:34 <elliott> that's my elaboration
17:10:54 -!- ogrom has joined.
17:11:02 <coppro> atriq: try importing it
17:11:05 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit).
17:11:19 <atriq> I don't know what modules it contains!
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17:14:41 <atriq> elliott, what would you suggest to replace it?
17:15:18 <elliott> atriq: either a function, vector (from the vector package), or a map/hashmap
17:15:21 <elliott> depends on your needs!
17:15:28 <atriq> I'd go for a function in this case
17:16:07 <elliott> you should randomise the layout tho
17:16:10 <elliott> that'd be cool!
17:16:12 <elliott> and dumb
17:18:27 * ion randomizes elliott’s layout.
17:18:37 <atriq> Go ion
17:19:49 <elliott> atriq: btw why are you using makeLensesFor
17:19:52 <elliott> rather than makeLenses or makeClassy
17:20:22 <atriq> I didn't know how they named them
17:21:51 <elliott> atriq: they expect your fields to be named _foo and produce a lens named foo
17:22:39 <atriq> Hmm
17:22:43 <atriq> That isn't quite what I have
17:22:55 <atriq> I have fields named foo and lenses named foo_
17:23:52 <elliott> right but that sucks
17:23:54 <elliott> so i don't care
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17:34:18 <atriq> Okay, I've changed it
17:38:12 <atriq> It now uses functions instead of arrays, and makeLenses instead of makeLensesFor
17:38:47 <elliott> ok now split that one gigantic definition you have into like five
17:40:12 <atriq> That's not gigantic
17:40:16 <atriq> That's merely stupidly big
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17:40:32 <atriq> It's less than 100 lines
17:40:35 <atriq> Ergo, not gigantic
17:40:45 <elliott> it's gigantic
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18:06:20 <atriq> Wow, I've just been retweeted by an Internet not actually celebrity
18:06:29 <atriq> Webcomic author Dan Shive
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18:55:31 <Sgeo|web> elliott, I crossed a shachaf. Am I alive?
18:55:36 -!- atriq has joined.
18:58:56 <elliott> hi
18:59:17 <atriq> Oh no!
18:59:18 <atriq> Aaah!
18:59:21 <elliott> that was to sgeo
18:59:26 <atriq> Oh thank god
18:59:29 <elliott> kmc: what does this mean: mount: /my/image/im/trying/to/loop/mount.img failed to setup loop device: No such file or directory
18:59:32 <elliott> *img:
19:01:16 <elliott> (the file exists)
19:01:18 <elliott> (so does the mount point)
19:01:25 <kmc> maybe you have no loopback devices for some reason
19:01:33 <kmc> strace it
19:01:37 <atriq> Remember that time I installed pacman on my computer
19:01:40 <atriq> That was fun
19:01:55 <elliott> oh hm
19:02:01 <elliott> apparently that is true kmc!
19:02:07 <elliott> why don't i have a loopback device
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19:02:16 <kmc> do you have a normal udev
19:02:33 <elliott> yes AIUI
19:02:42 <elliott> with systemd, which I don't think matters?
19:02:49 <kmc> well i don't know then :/
19:03:05 <elliott> all i know is systemd and udev merged
19:03:11 <elliott> so now i don't actually have a udev package
19:03:13 <elliott> it's just systemd
19:03:50 <kmc> huh
19:04:01 <kmc> keeping up with how linux systems work is hard
19:04:18 <elliott> kmc: well it's more that they just merged the packages upstream apparently
19:04:24 <elliott> and it's still buildable separately or something
19:05:49 <elliott> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
19:06:01 <elliott> apparently that means basically "you can use udev without systemd in the future but we're not going to make it any better"
19:09:20 <elliott> hmm
19:09:34 <elliott> kmc: actually maybe i do have a loopback device or something
19:09:40 <elliott> i do have the loop module loaded at least
19:12:51 <elliott> open("/dev/loop-control", O_RDWR) = -1 ENODEV (No such device)
19:12:52 <elliott> this is puzzling
19:12:58 <elliott> because
19:12:59 <elliott> $ ls -lh /dev/loop-control
19:12:59 <elliott> crw------- 1 root root 10, 237 Nov 2 14:25 /dev/loop-control
19:13:10 <elliott> so wtf
19:14:05 <kmc> oh probably you just don't have loop.ko loaded
19:14:15 <elliott> kmc: i've done sudo modprobe loop about 10 times
19:14:21 <kmc> haha ok
19:14:23 <elliott> https://gist.github.com/3397886 apparently this person has the same issue on the same OS three months ago
19:14:25 <kmc> well maybe it's fucked somehow
19:14:51 <elliott> well i am sure it is fucked
19:14:53 <elliott> since it doesn't work
19:14:59 <kmc> anything in dmesg?
19:15:11 <elliott> checked before but no
19:15:19 <elliott> nothing since boot-up
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19:16:54 <elliott> $ echo hi | sudo tee /dev/loop-control
19:16:54 <elliott> [sudo] password for elliott:
19:16:54 <elliott> tee: /dev/loop-control: No such device
19:16:54 <elliott> hi
19:16:59 <elliott> so loop-control exists as a device
19:17:02 <elliott> but is not a device
19:17:09 <elliott> so i guess the problem is 10, 237 doesn't identify a valid decide
19:17:10 <elliott> *device
19:17:12 <elliott> so why not
19:17:14 <kmc> it's a file but there's no device hooked up to it in the kernel
19:17:14 <kmc> yeah
19:17:19 <kmc> that is the mystery
19:18:40 <elliott> $ lsmod | grep loop
19:18:40 <elliott> $
19:18:46 <elliott> so modprobe loop didn't work i guess
19:18:48 <elliott> so why didn't it complain??
19:19:07 <elliott> ok
19:19:10 <elliott> sudo modprobe -v sdlfkjsdfkl
19:19:12 <elliott> also outputs nothing
19:19:19 <elliott> what is going onnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
19:20:49 <fizzie> Maybe your system has deprecated the loop device completely, in favour of dm-loop?
19:21:09 <elliott> fizzie: OK, I'm willing to accept that... but why is modprobe fucked?
19:21:15 <elliott> (and how would I get dm-loop working)
19:21:42 <fizzie> I don't even know if dm-loop ever went anywhere, I just remember there was one once.
19:22:04 <elliott> dm-loop is lvm only from the looks of it?
19:22:05 <elliott> I don't have lvm.
19:23:36 <elliott> "sudo modprobe -v -n dosfjsdofjoidsf" doesn't even give any messages.
19:23:39 <fizzie> I think grep loop /proc/devices should at least definitely say if the device is there.
19:23:46 <elliott> Even "modprobe foo" as non-root doesn't give me any messages.
19:23:48 <elliott> What's going on?
19:24:02 <elliott> fizzie: That outputs nothing, right.
19:24:15 <elliott> It seems fairly obvious I need to load loop... so the problem is just that modprobe is completely broken??
19:24:24 <fizzie> Maybe they deprecated modutils and it's just a dummy stub. :p
19:24:39 <elliott> Well it responds to --help and everything.
19:25:08 <fizzie> $ sudo modprobe -v -n dosfjsdofjoidsf
19:25:08 <fizzie> FATAL: Module dosfjsdofjoidsf not found.
19:25:17 <elliott> $ modprobe -V
19:25:17 <elliott> kmod version 10
19:25:30 <fizzie> Your system has EVERY MODULE, that's why they all work.
19:25:54 <elliott> (what's your version?)
19:26:03 <fizzie> "module-init-tools version 3.16".
19:26:09 -!- ogrom has joined.
19:26:11 <fizzie> Very different.
19:26:35 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit).
19:26:57 <elliott> Name : kmod
19:26:57 <elliott> [...]
19:26:57 <elliott> Conflicts With : module-init-tools
19:26:57 <elliott> Replaces : module-init-tools
19:27:00 <elliott> fizzie: What's going on? :(
19:27:14 <fizzie> It must be some kinda thing.
19:28:04 <elliott> With module-init-tools being declared a dead project by its current maintainer, a new project has stepped up to take its place: kmod. This is intended to be a drop-in replacement, though deprecated functionality in module-init-tools has not been reimplemented.
19:28:05 <elliott> Hokay.
19:28:58 <elliott> [[
19:28:58 <elliott> Hello,
19:28:58 <elliott> While setting up a new VPS with Wheezy under a module-less kernel
19:28:58 <elliott> (everything compiled-in) I've noticed that kmod's modprobe silently
19:28:58 <elliott> returns 1 with no error message printed, no matter if you tell it
19:28:58 <elliott> to load or unload a module.
19:29:00 <elliott> ]]
19:29:02 <elliott> Hokay.
19:29:19 <elliott> So "modprobe loop" is, in fact, failing.
19:29:29 <elliott> How is a mystery.
19:29:56 <fizzie> Apparently things like "diagnostics" and "any messages" are part of the deprecated functionality they've not reimplemented.
19:30:33 <elliott> [[
19:30:33 <elliott> After a bit more testing using a more "standard" Debian install
19:30:33 <elliott> (barebones system from current netinst with Debian standard kernel
19:30:33 <elliott> 3.2.0-3-686-pae) I've found out that this behavior is caused by lack
19:30:33 <elliott> of /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/modules.alias.bin .
19:30:33 <elliott> ]]
19:30:35 <elliott> Hokay.
19:30:49 <kmc> fucking linux kids
19:30:57 <kmc> gotta reimplement the whole system from scratch every few years
19:31:05 <kmc> because clearly the old authors were idiots and that's why nothing works
19:31:06 <elliott> Except I have that file.
19:31:09 <elliott> Hmm.
19:31:18 <kmc> it couldn't be that nothing works because it's all reimplemented from scratch every few years
19:31:27 <fizzie> Do you have a loop.ko in there though?
19:31:30 <kmc> this reminds me of uni computing clubs actually
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19:31:35 <kmc> probably no coincidence
19:31:50 <elliott> fizzie: Well, um, it's a binary file.
19:31:53 <elliott> I don't know how to check.
19:32:09 <elliott> I guess look at modules.alias?
19:32:11 <fizzie> I mean, in the module dir.
19:32:21 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I have loop.ko.gz, yes.
19:32:22 <elliott> alias devname:loop-control loop
19:32:22 <elliott> alias char-major-10-237 loop
19:32:22 <elliott> alias block-major-7-* loop
19:32:28 <elliott> That's what modules.alias has.
19:32:48 <elliott> kmc: it's linux... the reason usually is because the old authors were idiots
19:33:07 <fizzie> That sounds suspiciously reasonable. It may be lulling you to a false sense of security.
19:33:46 <elliott> fizzie: I'm going to have so strace modprobe, aren't I :(
19:34:24 <fizzie> There weren't any of these .bin files when I last wondered about modules, around the 2.4.x series or something. There was just one ascii .dep file for modprobe and that was about it.
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.dep.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.dep.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.alias.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:39 <elliott> OK, it's upset that those don't exist.
19:34:46 <elliott> Ah.
19:34:57 <elliott> fizzie: Guess why it's broken? Hint: It's a really dumb reason and I feel like an idiot.
19:35:30 <elliott> fizzie: Here's a hint:
19:35:36 <elliott> $ ls /lib/modules
19:35:36 <elliott> 3.6.4-1-ARCH 3.6.5-1-ck extramodules-3.6-ARCH extramodules-3.6-ck
19:35:56 <fizzie> Ah ha.
19:36:10 <fizzie> I see some different numbers.
19:36:17 <elliott> The reason is I upgraded my kernel and it removed the old one and I haven't rebooted yet. :(
19:36:28 <elliott> So, uh... be right back.
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19:36:48 <fizzie> It's a Linux system, you should always try rebooting first, it usually fixes all the problems.
19:36:53 <fizzie> ...wait...
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19:38:54 <elliott> Okay, now it gives error messages.
19:38:59 <elliott> And works when it loads loop.
19:39:56 <elliott> Yay, it works.
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19:43:54 <elliott> 03:44:20: <pikhq> kmc: You may also enjoy DS9. There might be a modicum of enjoyment from TOS and TAS. VOY and ENT will make you want to drink all the alcohol.
19:43:59 <elliott> pikhq: aw c'mon, voyager is hilarious
19:44:09 <kmc> so is being very drunk
19:44:59 <elliott> kmc: I suspect the experiences are comparable
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19:50:54 <shubshub> hi guys
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19:55:19 <kmc> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0048331
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20:04:16 <elliott> shubshub: your language is really bad
20:04:26 <shubshub> why
20:04:42 <elliott> i have no idea how to articulate the reasons
20:04:51 <shubshub> ...
20:05:46 <elliott> kmc: help me out here
20:06:45 <ion> Is shubshub the alter ego of someone here?
20:06:55 <shubshub> no
20:07:09 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:07:11 <kmc> i didn't really look at it
20:07:12 <kmc> heh
20:07:16 <elliott> he's the alter ego of shubshub
20:07:18 -!- shubshub has joined.
20:07:25 <elliott> kmc: here http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
20:08:15 <kmc> this is terrible
20:08:34 <kmc> why do the built-in functions have terrible short names
20:08:49 <kmc> also why do you need a different function to clear the screen on linux vs windows
20:08:51 <shubshub> to make it easier
20:08:53 <kmc> shouldn't the language hide that detail
20:09:06 <ion> Apparently the function to Perform a Mathes eqaution doesn’t return the result, it prints it. So you can’t compute a Mathes eqaution such as 2+3*4 with it.
20:09:22 <kmc> wow
20:09:23 <ion> And it’s only distributed as a .pyc file, no source.
20:09:29 <kmc> wow
20:09:47 <kmc> <shubshub> to make it easier
20:09:48 <elliott> ion: that's a maths equation, not a Mathes eqaution
20:09:58 <elliott> don't you know about famous Mathesamatician John Mathes
20:10:06 <kmc> are you one of those people who believes the difficulty of programming is proportional to the number of keys you have to push?
20:10:36 <ion> elliott: I only know about Imhotep.
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20:11:58 <ion> <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, but did you actually write if x == 'a' or x == 'A': y = str(1); elif x == 'b' or x == 'B': y = str(2); ... elif x == 'z' or x == 'Z': y = str(26)?
20:12:03 <ion> <shubshub> yes
20:12:07 <ion> <shubshub> im typed up the entire language by hand
20:12:15 <shubshub> can u please stop quoting me
20:12:23 <pikhq> ion: If Jean stands exactly one nautical mile away from Lord Scotland, how tall is Imhotep?
20:13:05 <ion> pikhq: I dare not compute that, lest i suffer the Helvetica scenario.
20:13:17 <pikhq> ion: It's easy!
20:13:19 <elliott> <shubshub> can u please stop quoting me
20:13:34 <pikhq> And there's no calcium involved, so no fear of Helvetica.
20:13:35 <ion> u: Please stop quoting shubshub.
20:13:53 <ion> freenode -- u: No such nick/channel
20:15:28 <ion> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Poison&oldid=32167
20:16:01 <ion> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Poison&oldid=32171 As you can see Poison takes less coding to do Hello World :D
20:16:43 <shubshub> what do u mean
20:17:17 <elliott> you realise you wrote that sentence not ion right
20:17:38 <shubshub> yes
20:18:02 <ion> Why did you switch from Ruby to Python in the middle of implementing Poison?
20:18:19 <shubshub> Cuz I didnt like ruby that much
20:18:19 <ion> And why does the Python implementation not have hgWorld("True")?
20:18:52 <ion> And what does the g stand for?
20:19:15 <shubshub> hold on let me think
20:19:56 <shubshub> Ah
20:20:08 <shubshub> hgWorld stands for Hello/Goodbye World
20:20:23 <elliott> ok i take it back poison is my favourite language
20:20:30 <shubshub> really
20:21:17 <elliott> yes
20:21:20 <shubshub> why
20:21:23 <Bike> does hgWorld("False") print "Goodbye World !"?
20:21:33 <elliott> shubshub: well why did you make it
20:21:37 <hagb4rd> hello, goodbye, world. it's very minimalistic.. though it may be not TC
20:21:39 <shubshub> no but I Believe hgWorld("False") did
20:21:40 <elliott> some questions nobody can answer
20:21:56 <elliott> shubshub: you literally just said the exact same thing as Bike
20:22:12 <shubshub> oh sorry i didnt read it properly
20:22:30 <ion> elliott: He describes why he made it in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
20:22:46 <elliott> ion: well
20:22:49 <elliott> ion: i wasn't counting that
20:24:52 <kmc> what about hgWorld(True) and hgWorld(False) though
20:24:54 <kmc> what do those print
20:25:05 <ion> And how about hgWorld("Foo")?
20:25:12 <shubshub> ...
20:25:55 <kmc> !!!
20:26:05 <ion> ¿¿¿
20:27:38 <hagb4rd> ok.but i miss the two_power_eight(bool use_division_instead_of_power) function
20:45:04 <shubshub> Maybe I should redo my language with better commands or something
20:45:09 <hagb4rd> i strongly recommend removing hoovers blog entry from the topic. we should encourage folks with a positive attitude. show them where to look among the garbage and the flowers
20:45:24 <elliott> that's not even Phantom_Hoover's blog post
20:45:49 <hagb4rd> doesn't change much
20:46:20 <elliott> (that blog entry is a joke)
20:47:33 <hagb4rd> really? sry i forgo to take my meads
20:52:17 <ion> shubshub: It’s perfect the way it is.
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21:47:14 <elliott> `welcome noooooooooooooooooooooodl
21:47:17 <HackEgo> noooooooooooooooooooooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:47:31 <nooodl> Thanks
21:47:37 <elliott> `welcome nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl
21:47:41 <HackEgo> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:47:44 <elliott> i dont think you feel sufficiently welcomed yet
21:48:37 <nooodl> "THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA"?????
21:49:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
21:49:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:49:30 <elliott> `? esoteric
21:49:30 <Gregor> Astral projection, crystal healing, the Bible, you know.
21:49:33 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
21:49:40 <pikhq> Gregor: :)
21:50:05 <pikhq> Though if you make an astral projection-based programming language, this is probably the appropriate place.
21:50:15 <Gregor> Indeed!
21:50:16 <nooodl> man, do you guys seriously get visited by "that kind" of people often enough for that to be in the welcome message
21:50:21 <elliott> yes
21:50:27 <Gregor> Yup.
21:50:29 <nooodl> ouch
21:50:35 <pikhq> nooodl: It's not *exceptionally* common, but it's sufficiently common that it's necessary, yes.
21:50:40 <Gregor> elliott: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP
21:50:43 <elliott> nooodl: do you feel welcome yet asshole
21:50:47 <elliott> Gregor: it's ok i know nooodl
21:50:52 <elliott> i'll never
21:50:52 <elliott> stop
21:50:58 <Gregor> For everyone ELSE'S sake X-D
21:51:02 <ion> `WELCOME nooodl
21:51:03 <elliott> those people dont have souls
21:51:03 <shachaf> Twist: nooodl *is* "that kind" of people.
21:51:05 <elliott> anyawy im going
21:51:28 <shachaf> elliott: lambdabot has lens now
21:51:38 <Gregor> We should buy the TLD “esolangs” so that http://esolangs will work.
21:51:56 <ion> We should buy the protocol “esolangs” so that esolangs: will work.
21:52:18 <olsner> esolang:/esolang/esolang/esolang?esolang#esolang
21:52:25 <shachaf> how much does a protocol cost
21:52:32 <nooodl> host an irc server on there too
21:52:47 <Bike> however much it takes to bribe browser developers
21:53:02 <nooodl> /server esolangs
21:53:14 <Gregor> Heheh
21:53:23 <Gregor> We should build our own Internet.
21:53:29 <Gregor> With booze and hookers and esolangs.
21:53:30 <pikhq> nooodl: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:54:23 <nooodl> pikhq: ありがとう
21:55:05 <Gregor> `learn wercome エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:55:08 <HackEgo> I knew that.
21:55:15 <pikhq> Gregor: :)
21:56:15 <Gregor> `run echo -e '#!/usr/bin/perl -w\nif (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? wercome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "wercome"; }' > bin/wercome; chmod a+x bin/wercome
21:56:17 <HackEgo> No output.
21:56:20 <Gregor> `wercome pikhq
21:56:24 <HackEgo> pikhq: wercome エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:56:30 <Gregor> ... >_<
21:56:57 <Gregor> `run echo 'エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)' > learndb/wercome
21:56:59 <HackEgo> bash: learndb/wercome: No such file or directory
21:57:04 <Gregor> Grr
21:57:23 <Gregor> `run echo 'エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)' > wisdom/wercome
21:57:27 <HackEgo> No output.
21:57:31 <Gregor> `wercome pikhq
21:57:34 <HackEgo> pikhq: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ!詳しく、ウィキを見て: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。(他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ)
21:57:43 <Gregor> That took more effort than it deserved X-D
21:58:25 <shubshub> lol
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22:01:58 <elliott> `rm bin/wercome
22:02:01 <HackEgo> No output.
22:02:11 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: lambdabot has lens now
22:02:15 <elliott> doesnt lens use a ton of common names
22:06:59 <shachaf> Exactly.
22:07:53 <shachaf> > ("hello","world") % zipper % down _1 % fromWithin traverse % focus .~ 'J' % rightmost % focus .~ 'y' % rezip
22:07:55 <lambdabot> ("Jelly","world")
22:08:01 <elliott> well isnt that bad then
22:08:04 <shachaf> kmc: "pretty crazy huh"
22:08:15 <olsner> lambdabot should just import every single package on hackage
22:08:27 <kmc> great
22:08:36 <elliott> so how does this gel with edwardk updating lens every 2 days
22:08:40 <elliott> and lambdabot being updated every 0
22:08:45 <kmc> they should patch GHC so that if there's a name conflict, it picks the one with the most complicated type
22:09:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:09:06 <shachaf> elliott: I think you mean me updating lens every 2 days.
22:09:09 <shachaf> elliott: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/graphs/impact
22:09:12 <nooodl> `learn bonvenon Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-o: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
22:09:15 <HackEgo> I knew that.
22:09:21 <nooodl> "true esoteric"
22:09:21 <kmc> esperanto?
22:09:26 <nooodl> yeah
22:09:39 <shachaf> Um, shouldn't we have tervetuloa?
22:09:47 <shachaf> And however you say "welcome" in Hexhammish.
22:09:58 <kmc> esperanto is the "pointless brainfuck derivative" of constructed languages
22:10:07 <ion> What’s Lojban?
22:10:11 <kmc> malbolge
22:10:14 <kmc> i dunno
22:10:19 <kmc> esperanto just seems pointless
22:10:19 <shachaf> malbolojban
22:10:25 <kmc> there are already so many romance languages
22:10:29 <kmc> they're pretty regular and easy to learn
22:10:35 <kmc> and people actually use them
22:10:39 <elliott> :t (^.)
22:10:42 <lambdabot> forall s a t b. s -> Getting a s t a b -> a
22:10:47 <elliott> i dont understand Mutator
22:10:53 <nooodl> lojban is binary lambda calculus
22:10:53 <elliott> where does it ever get specialised to Mutator
22:10:54 <shachaf> Mutator = Identity
22:10:56 <elliott> where does it ever get specialised to Mutator
22:10:59 <nooodl> "it's so 'simple'!"
22:11:01 <elliott> so that it appears in errors
22:11:03 <shachaf> elliott: ^. doesn't use Mutator
22:11:07 <elliott> er
22:11:08 <ion> kmc: But there are too many of them. Let’s make one that everyone can use! I’m sure everyone will switch to that one.
22:11:10 <elliott> :t (^=)
22:11:11 <lambdabot> forall s (m :: * -> *) a e. (Integral e, Num a, MonadState s m) => SimpleSetting s a -> e -> m ()
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22:11:19 <elliott> ok
22:11:20 <kmc> i guess esperanto makes more sense in the 19th century context where all of europe hates each other and is super proud of their own shitty local things
22:11:24 <shachaf> SimpleSetting uses Mutator
22:11:24 <elliott> so where does Mutator come into play
22:11:29 <elliott> type SimpleSetting s a = Setting s s a a
22:11:30 <elliott> does it?
22:11:36 <shachaf> type Setting s t a b = (a -> Mutator b) -> s -> Mutator t
22:11:40 <shachaf> type Setter s t a b = forall (f :: * -> *). Settable f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
22:11:41 <elliott> oh
22:11:41 <elliott> type Setting s t a b = (a -> Mutator b) -> s -> Mutator t
22:11:43 <kmc> it's a "politically neutral language that transcends nationality"
22:11:43 <elliott> ok then
22:12:18 <shachaf> elliott: Do you like Bazaar?
22:12:35 <kmc> i want a language that transcends rationality
22:12:41 <kmc> also
22:12:45 <kmc> i want a god that stays dead, not plays dead
22:13:33 <zzo38> kmc: Can you do those things?
22:13:40 <kmc> I, even I, can play dead
22:14:04 <shachaf> But can you rationalize transcendentals?
22:14:13 <kmc> doubtful
22:14:22 <ion> Time to gette some sleepe.
22:14:22 <elliott> whats wrong with bazaar
22:14:45 <shachaf> elliott: Well, there was a strictness bug in holesOf.
22:14:52 <shachaf> Now it's fixed.
22:14:57 <shachaf> But can you make it more safe?!
22:15:10 <elliott> more safe howso
22:15:17 <shachaf> holesOf :: LensLike (Bazaar a a) s t a a -> s -> [Context a a t]
22:15:17 <shachaf> holesOf l a = f (ins b) (outs b) where b = l sell a f [] _ = [] f (x:xs) g = Context (g . (:xs)) x : f xs (g . (x:))
22:15:28 <shachaf> ins :: Bazaar a b t -> [a]
22:15:28 <shachaf> ins (Bazaar m) = getConst (m (Const . return))
22:15:28 <shachaf> {-# INLINE ins #-}
22:15:34 <shachaf> outs :: Bazaar a a t -> [a] -> t
22:15:34 <shachaf> outs (Bazaar m) = evalState $ m $ \c -> state $ \cs -> case cs of [] -> (c,[]) (d:ds) -> (d,ds)
22:15:40 <olsner> `learn välkommen Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
22:15:42 <shachaf> See that?
22:15:43 <elliott> more safe howso
22:15:43 <HackEgo> I knew that.
22:15:55 <shachaf> elliott: It's using lists!
22:16:03 <elliott> who cares
22:16:08 <elliott> looks total to me
22:16:17 <elliott> whats the problem
22:16:35 <shachaf> unsafePartsOf :: LensLike (Bazaar a b) s t a b -> Lens s t [a] [b]
22:16:35 <shachaf> unsafePartsOf l f a = unsafeOuts b <$> f (ins b) where b = l sell a
22:16:38 <shachaf> unsafeOuts :: Bazaar a b t -> [b] -> t
22:16:39 <shachaf> unsafeOuts (Bazaar m) = evalState (m $ \_ -> state unsafeUncons)
22:16:50 <shachaf> The point is it's ugly. :-(
22:17:31 <elliott> howso
22:17:43 <elliott> how would you write it
22:18:06 <shachaf> I don't know.
22:18:20 <elliott> newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t }
22:18:22 <elliott> looks fine to me
22:18:27 <elliott> problem if anything is in the functions using it
22:18:29 <elliott> so fix them
22:18:32 <elliott> define your own f i guess
22:19:07 <shachaf> The *problem* is that there's no type safety, elliott!
22:19:12 <shachaf> "start caring plz"
22:19:45 <elliott> i don't see how there's no type safety
22:20:53 <shachaf> Well, it's using regular lists, so how can you guarantee that it'll have the same number of elements?
22:21:50 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((n -> b) -> t) (n -> a)
22:21:59 <zzo38> I have written some things on some paper I think there is some ways to make something like it having list of same number of elements, depending what you are doing with it there is the way.
22:24:54 <elliott> shachaf: but whats wrong with bazaar's definition
22:25:13 <shachaf> Nothing's wrong with *Bazaar*.
22:25:18 <shachaf> Just the functions that are using it.
22:25:20 <zzo38> Is that the right and left bazaar? What is it?
22:25:35 <shachaf> zzo38: What's a left and right bazaar?
22:26:00 <elliott> shachaf: so change the functions, not bazaar
22:26:11 <shachaf> elliott: I never said anything about changing Bazaar.
22:26:22 <elliott> just define your own f that works as both Const and State
22:26:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know, it is why I asked.
22:26:49 <shachaf> elliott: OK, how?
22:26:58 <shachaf> kmc: Can you believe there was once a time when you cared about crazy types like that?
22:27:17 <zzo38> But I thought it was something like, newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t } being the right bazaar and data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((n -> b) -> t) (n -> a) being the left bazaar, or something like that.
22:28:06 <elliott> shachaf: well there's such a thing as applicative product....
22:28:16 <shachaf> zzo38: Those are isomorphic.
22:28:33 <shachaf> Er wait.
22:28:42 <elliott> shachaf: so just use product of const and state?
22:28:45 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((Fin n -> b) -> t) (Fin n -> a)
22:28:52 <shachaf> elliott: Which is what?
22:28:59 <zzo38> shachaf: What is Fin in here?
22:29:08 <elliott> shachaf: Product (Const a) (State b)
22:29:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Fin n = natural numbers < n
22:29:41 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar (Vect n b -> t) (Vect n a)
22:29:45 <zzo38> shachaf: OK
22:30:53 <zzo38> O so that is how they work, OK.
22:31:11 <shachaf> Sorry for my category error before.
22:31:19 <shachaf> elliott: What's that?
22:31:24 <elliott> what's what
22:31:31 <shachaf> Product blah blah
22:31:35 <shachaf> Can you write out the type?
22:31:50 <shubshub> Im rebuilding my language
22:31:55 <shachaf> Also how does it help?
22:31:57 <shubshub> here is a new command
22:31:59 <shubshub> cat("This is a cat program", math(9, 9, "*"))
22:32:47 <elliott> shachaf: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/transformers/
22:33:24 <nooodl> shubshub: this language is the one taped onto python right
22:33:32 <shubshub> yea
22:33:44 <shachaf> I'm not sure how that'll help.
22:33:52 <nooodl> why would you write math(9, 9, "*") instead of 9 * 9
22:33:55 <elliott> well you can combine in and out
22:33:57 <elliott> nooodl: it's shorter
22:33:58 <elliott> less typing
22:34:01 <elliott> that's what poison's good at
22:34:02 <nooodl> elliott: oh
22:34:16 <monqy> you know what would be really rad
22:34:27 <monqy> !!!python, numeric python, maybe numeric python
22:34:27 <elliott> monqy: what
22:34:30 <elliott> good
22:34:48 <shachaf> monqy: do you like Bazaar
22:34:51 <shubshub> no just no monqy
22:34:57 <monqy> what's bazarre
22:35:14 <shachaf> monqy: it is spellt bizaar!!!
22:35:19 <monqy> no it's not
22:35:29 <olsner> bezoar
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22:36:38 <shachaf> monqy: oh drat, you caught me
22:37:33 <shachaf> monqy: data Bazaar a b t = Buy t | Trade (Bazaar a b (b -> t)) a
22:37:34 <monqy> yes
22:37:36 -!- mindlessDrone has left.
22:37:58 <monqy> what's that
22:38:22 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar (Vect n b -> t) (Vect n a)
22:38:47 <monqy> ok
22:38:56 <monqy> what does it do
22:39:20 <shachaf> traverse
22:39:42 <monqy> ok
22:39:51 <shachaf> now do you like it
22:40:13 <monqy> yes
22:40:25 <shachaf> monqy: Bazaar a b t = forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t -- REAL DEFINITION
22:40:39 <shachaf> newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t } -- ACTUAL REAL DEFINITION
22:41:41 <monqy> are you sure
22:41:45 <monqy> you seem to be changing your mind a lot !
22:42:06 <shachaf> monqy: it's a medical issue :'(
22:42:07 <copumpkin> those are all equivalent
22:42:10 <shachaf> changeminditis
22:42:21 <shachaf> hi copumpkin
22:42:23 <copumpkin> hi
22:42:23 <nooodl> monqy: A New And Much More Improved Interpreter For !!!Batch has Been developed It is Called !Py!Batch: Download It Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?9zx97k7zl04xk67
22:42:35 <monqy> nooodl: i've seen that
22:42:35 <shachaf> copumpkin: I fixed the holesOf bug!
22:42:40 <copumpkin> what bug?
22:42:59 <shachaf> It was too strict.
22:43:12 <shachaf> "no longer !" !
22:43:20 <shachaf> So you you can use it on infinite lists and what not.
22:44:24 <nooodl> monqy: http://codepad.org/jThI4mnL !!!
22:44:36 <monqy> hello
22:44:43 <nooodl> line 9 is the !!!Python code
22:44:52 <shachaf> !!!Python = !Python
22:44:56 <shachaf> even in intuitionism !!!
22:44:58 <nooodl> imo "exec e('')" is part of it
22:45:53 <monqy> thhe encoding of the future
22:49:53 <shubshub> ...
22:50:02 <monqy> hi
22:50:03 <nooodl> hi
22:50:34 <elliott> hi
22:50:53 <monqy> hey remember that time we all set our names to some variation of "monqy" and said hi like a billion times
22:51:00 <monqy> me neither
22:51:12 <elliott> hi
22:51:35 <monqy> nobody is innocent
22:51:55 <elliott> that's ok because that means you're not innocent
22:51:59 <elliott> partner in crime
22:53:01 <olsner> hi?
22:53:40 <elliott> olsner: hi.
22:53:58 <olsner> elliott: hej!
22:54:17 <nooodl> hoi
22:54:26 <elliott> sup
22:54:54 <olsner> soup? no, no soup
22:57:12 <olsner> oh, macgyver ran long enough to have episodes taking place after the wallfall
23:13:01 <olsner> hmm, what previously appeared to just be poor attention to keeping up the german accent, might actually be in-character
23:15:09 <zzo38> I made a game with backgammon and chess together http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSbackgammonches
23:31:08 <shachaf> monqy: Is "shachaf" a variation of monqy?
23:33:45 <olsner> shachaf: yes, it's the rot13 of monqy
23:34:10 <shachaf> uh oh
23:34:12 <shachaf> ^rot13 monqy
23:34:13 <fungot> zbadl
23:34:20 <olsner> see, shachaf
23:34:26 <shachaf> elliott: Where's oerjan?
23:34:29 <shachaf> I miss oerjan.
23:34:38 <shachaf> All we have is this cheap knock-off.
23:35:52 <kmc> ꙮrjan
23:36:30 <shachaf> @∀rr
23:36:31 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
23:36:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan??
23:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
23:36:42 <Phantom_Hoover> o oerjan
23:38:07 <shachaf> I bet he'll never come back.
23:38:39 <zzo38> How much money do you want to bet?
23:39:06 <shachaf> I'll bet you one Bazaar function.
23:39:16 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read _The Bottle Imp_?
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
23:39:38 <shachaf> By Robert Louis Stevenson.
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
23:39:44 <shachaf> I think it's the only thing of his that I've read.
23:40:03 <shachaf> elliott: :-(
23:40:06 <elliott> shachaf: Maybe you shouldn't make jokes about oerjan dying.
23:40:29 <shachaf> @tell oerjan sorry
23:40:29 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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23:40:44 <elliott> Hmm.
23:40:47 <elliott> So it's been almost 20 days.
23:40:55 <elliott> That's... not reassuring.
23:41:03 <elliott> er, s/almost/over/
23:41:18 <elliott> Maybe I should try to get in contact with him.
23:41:56 <shachaf> You should.
23:42:12 <olsner> what if he just doesn't want to be here?
23:42:22 <shachaf> impossible
23:42:47 <elliott> olsner: that's perfectly possible... I never said I was going to drag him kicking and screaming back to the channel.
23:44:05 <olsner> he wouldn't be kicking and screaming if you chain and gag him first
23:45:20 <elliott> I guess I will just send him an email.
23:45:40 <nooga> caulk
23:46:39 <elliott> "Instead of taking up your entire Gmail window, clicking Compose now opens a smaller window at the bottom of your screen."
23:46:40 <elliott> oh good.
23:46:43 <elliott> just what i always wanted.
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23:50:26 <kmc> shachaf: no, what is it?
23:50:46 <kmc> what happened to oerjan?
23:50:59 <shachaf> A short story.
23:51:07 <shachaf> I remember enjoying it years ago but that was years ago.
23:51:11 <shachaf> Maybe I should read it in English.
23:51:38 <olsner> the story of oerjan?
23:51:51 <elliott> kmc: last time he was in the channel was:
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
23:52:13 <elliott> probably he's just recovering or whatever
23:52:21 <elliott> but it's getting on close to a month now
23:52:23 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try to get in contact with him?
23:52:35 <elliott> shachaf: what
23:52:38 <elliott> i said that like a few minutes ago
23:52:47 <elliott> it takes time to do things
23:58:18 <elliott> Hmm, he last edited the wiki on 27 October.
23:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it doesn't help that from what oerjan's told us he's pretty recluded
23:58:23 <elliott> So... no need to worry, I guess.
23:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> unless he set up a bot to make it look like he was alive?
23:59:34 <shachaf> I bet he's logreading this right now
23:59:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Come on.
23:59:39 <shachaf> AREN'T YOU ØRJAN
00:00:02 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
00:00:14 <kmc> well i was wondering why he was in the hospital
00:00:17 <kmc> but maybe nobody knows
00:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> mathematician's elbow
00:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Motion to include Poison in Category:Shameful.
00:01:47 <shachaf> Housemaid's knee.
00:02:25 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:28 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:30 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:33 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:34 <FreeFull> Waait
00:02:36 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:39 <FreeFull> < elliott>
00:02:41 <FreeFull> < shachaf>
00:02:42 <FreeFull> Where did the rest of the text go
00:02:45 <FreeFull> Wtf
00:03:02 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: second
00:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> it was too outrageous for your irc client to show
00:03:12 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
00:03:15 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
00:03:17 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
00:03:20 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
00:03:26 <FreeFull> That's what I meant to do
00:03:40 <Bike> so now somebody should quote you?
00:03:50 <olsner> let's misquote a bit "<oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect to survive hospital"
00:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> I probably shouldn't survive hospital
00:04:24 <olsner> let's misquote again "<oerjan> Just realized I probably should clarify that I expect not to survive hospital"
00:04:24 <shachaf> <oerjan> hi monqy
00:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> i am a penis
00:04:58 <FreeFull> <oerjan> stick it in my pooper
00:05:08 <kmc> yikes
00:05:15 <olsner> that went south quickly
00:05:39 <FreeFull> <oerjan> just like migratory birds during winter
00:06:10 <Phantom_Hoover> (my sincerest apologies to oerjan's ghost)
00:06:43 <FreeFull> Wait
00:06:51 <FreeFull> Penises don't have poopers
00:11:35 <olsner> if this channel had rules or anything, that could be considered offensive
00:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought we'd established he's almost certainly better?
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00:12:34 -!- monqy has left.
00:14:59 <olsner> oerjan or his ghost?
00:18:05 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
00:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> both i guess
00:18:26 -!- nooodl has left ("Leaving").
00:18:29 <SgeoN1> Finally, crossed a stable shachaf. Erm, have a stable Internet connection.
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00:22:53 <SgeoN2> For some value of stable. Better than 3g at least.
00:25:34 <zzo38> One thing that the Amber core documentation does not say is how fast will it run on the Xilinx Spartan 6?
00:28:13 <kmc> 4G? 5G?
00:28:15 <kmc> 6?
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00:32:19 <shachaf> http://gaslight.mtroyal.ab.ca/bottlimp.htm
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01:07:28 <kmc> damn it Lenovo, why won't you take my money
01:12:11 <shachaf> kmc: I hear Apple has MacBooks Air with 8GB RAM & i7.
01:12:22 <zzo38> What are you trying to buy?
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01:26:57 <Sgeo> <technomancy> you can't use clojure in GPL'd projects
01:27:08 <Sgeo> <technomancy> the EPL's patent clause is ironically considered "additional restrictions" by the GPL
01:27:14 <kmc> shachaf: no nipple pointer though
01:27:33 <kmc> oh boy my two favore things: Clojure and arguing about software licenses
01:27:47 <shachaf> True.
01:28:52 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear the RethinkDB code is out?
01:28:56 <kmc> also the keyborad is probably worse
01:28:57 <kmc> oh really
01:28:59 <kmc> cool
01:29:00 <shachaf> Apparently they've decided to AGPL3 it.
01:37:22 <shachaf> kmc: Why aren't laptops getting the crazy high-resolution displays?
01:41:38 <kmc> because copying apple takes time
01:46:18 <shachaf> Apparently you can get a $400 2560×1600 tablet these days.
01:46:34 <shachaf> But the laptop people don't even care! Ridiculous.
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02:45:08 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig2-16.jpg
02:47:14 <SgeoN2> This client has no rewson to be running.
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03:09:46 <shachaf> "One of the most familiar images in New York transit history"
03:09:53 <shachaf> Should I feel bad for not recognizing it?
03:10:19 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:10:23 <kmc> obviously
03:10:48 -!- evincar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:12:41 -!- evincar has joined.
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03:20:20 <kmc> also i'm impressed you back-resolved what web page that appears on
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03:21:38 <shachaf> kmc: The filename has a clue.
03:24:27 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=29641
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03:36:09 <nooodl> zzo38: hey, is your Chronojournal still hosted somewhere? it was interesting
03:37:52 -!- monqy has joined.
03:42:55 <kmc> people don't understand probability
03:43:06 <kmc> if you say that something has a 25% chance of happening and then it happens, you are an idiot
03:43:41 <monqy> hi
03:44:10 <monqy> what if it doesn't happen are you still an idiot
03:44:11 <monqy> imo yes
03:44:42 <kmc> yeah most likely
03:44:55 <kmc> hi monqy
03:57:18 <shachaf> zzo38: You have a brother?
03:57:22 <shachaf> Who invents chess variants?
03:57:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I have a brother who has invented some chess variants.
03:58:00 <shachaf> Who invented more, you or your brother?
03:58:04 <zzo38> nooodl: I still have the software but there is no data.
03:58:16 <zzo38> shachaf: I did. However, some we have invented together.
03:58:26 <shachaf> Is it a competition?
03:58:29 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
03:58:45 <zzo38> shachaf: No.
03:59:04 <shachaf> Who's winning?
03:59:41 <zzo38> Well, we have not played all of these games, but I won sometimes and he won sometimes. I have not keep track.
04:01:19 <zzo38> There are four files not yet published: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSbackgammonches http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSrecapturablech http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSwithdrawingche http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSkirachesskiras
04:05:31 <Sgeo> Ooh, backgammon+chess?
04:05:33 <Sgeo> Sounds fun
04:21:11 <zzo38> Yes
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04:38:50 * Sgeo goes to actually click the link
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04:42:49 <kmc> guys
04:43:01 <kmc> should i vote for the Green-Rainbow Party candidate for President of the United States?
04:43:29 <Bike> the hell is that?
04:43:53 <Sgeo> "It is the Massachusetts state affiliate of the Green Party of the United States."
04:44:22 <kmc> yes
04:44:42 <kmc> and there is zero chance that my vote will actually affect who is president
04:44:54 <Bike> do you support rainbows?
04:45:07 <kmc> because MA will almost certainly go for Obama, and because any world where MA goes for Romney is a world where Obama is hopelessly fucked nation-wide
04:45:13 <kmc> Bike: yes
04:45:15 <kmc> the more the merrier
04:45:21 <shachaf> You should vote for yourself.
04:45:23 <Bike> you know what you must do
04:45:25 <shachaf> kmc 2012
04:45:33 <kmc> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
04:45:53 <Bike> that's right: vote for a version of yourself that has been blessed by the prism gods
04:45:56 <Sgeo> My dad thinks that NY might actually go Romney because of low turnout
04:46:16 <kmc> that seems... unlikely
04:46:28 <kmc> does your dad have any evidence or credibility
04:46:44 <Sgeo> No.
04:47:16 <kmc> urban areas probably recover faster from the hurricane
04:47:23 <kmc> and your voting place is just down the street
04:48:04 <kmc> you don't have to drive around suburbia avoiding fallen trees
04:48:52 <kmc> and Obama is ahead by 20-30 points so...
04:56:06 <kmc> "Indoor laundry drying 'poses a health risk'"
04:56:19 <kmc> was confused until i realized it's the BBC and remembered that clothes drying machines haven't been invented in the UK yet
04:56:46 <kmc> i think because of nazis or something
05:00:19 <copumpkin> like fan death, except dryer death
05:00:35 <copumpkin> they're pretty rare in italy too
05:00:56 <copumpkin> but average household power allotments is much much smaller there than it is in the UK or here
05:13:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you think that game is OK?
05:14:01 <Sgeo> zzo38, I only looked at the Chess+Backgammon one
05:14:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, interesting, although can games go indefinitely? I note that bearing off is actually reversible, in a sense, as beared off checkers can end up back in jail
05:16:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, I suppose it might, although checkmate always ends the game too, and there is the randomness involved too.
05:17:00 <zzo38> But it is possible to miss a turn in the chess game, sometimes!!
05:20:07 <zzo38> (Because of this, there is no draw by repetition.)
06:00:16 <Bike> having not paid attention in several minutes: what about the 50 move draw?
06:03:05 <zzo38> Bike: There is no 50 move draw. The only draw is not having a legal FIDE move (if not in check).
06:03:20 <Bike> ah.
06:18:12 <zzo38> You can make other suggestion if you want to.
06:38:32 <zzo38> Do you know Chinese chess?
06:38:52 <Bike> I know of it, barely.
06:39:17 <Bike> Er, wait, Chinese chess more than Japanese chess, yes. If Chinese chesss is the one on a star of david looking thing.
06:40:36 <zzo38> Neither game is played on a Star of David (although that is an idea, to make up a variant involving such board)
06:41:04 <zzo38> Probably you mean Chinese Checkers, is played on the Star of David.
06:41:12 <pikhq> Bike: You're probably thinking "Chinese checkers".
06:41:13 <zzo38> Chinese Chess is a different game.
06:41:36 <Bike> oh, dammit.
06:41:37 <pikhq> Chinese chess, or xiangqi, is actually a chess derivative of sorts.
06:41:46 <pikhq> (it evolved from the same game chess evolved from)
06:41:55 <pikhq> And Japanese chess is based on that.
06:42:07 <pikhq> (aka shogi)
06:42:10 <Bike> ok, that makes sense.
06:42:15 <zzo38> I can play all of those games.
06:43:54 <zzo38> I made up a variant of Xiangqi with drops similar to Shogi. http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSdroppablexiang
06:44:23 <zzo38> The piece with different names are considered different kind, instead of calling them different name for the same kind of piece as is normally done.
06:48:58 <Sgeo> I mostly heard of those games in context of alternative games in Hikaru no Go
06:48:59 <Sgeo> :/
06:50:07 <pikhq> I've played Shogi. I'm not very good at it.
06:51:08 <zzo38> I have pieces and board of shogi, the board is made of paper, pieces are normal though. All of them fit in one small box.
06:58:06 <zzo38> I prefer the flat pieces used with Shogi and Xiangqi rather than the 3D figures used with FIDE.
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11:27:08 <atriq> Today's Hexham challenge: gatecrash birthday parties
11:27:13 <atriq> Three to collect!
11:28:16 <Jafet> What is Hexham.
11:29:13 <shachaf> Jafet: The dual of Finland.
11:29:16 <shachaf> Whose birthdays?
11:29:19 <shachaf> Is it elliott?
11:29:26 <shachaf> I bet it's elliott, oerjan, and monqy.
11:37:50 <atriq> Isn't elliott's birthday like in August or something
11:38:13 <shachaf> It's also in August.
11:38:19 <shachaf> Who said you can only have one a year?
11:38:25 <atriq> True, true
11:38:40 <atriq> Anyway, I must prepare for partyings!
11:38:43 <atriq> Goodbye
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11:39:00 <Jafet> Born again elliott.
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13:16:21 <Vorpal> I'm playing with USB OTG, so far my phone handled everything I threw at it
13:16:35 <Vorpal> hm lets try the printer XD
13:16:47 <Vorpal> okay... "Printer connected"... now what
13:18:51 <Vorpal> hrrm "can only print on samsung printer"? fail...
13:20:25 <Vorpal> oh hey, I could try this USB midi device...
13:21:26 <Vorpal> okay, it fails that
13:23:04 <Vorpal> USB Lego IR tower: fail
13:25:42 <fizzie> What happens if you connect it to another phone of the same model? Which one pretends to be the host and which one the device?
13:26:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't have more than one phone handy
13:26:03 <fizzie> Aw.
13:26:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I think it depends on who has the USB OTG cable
13:26:18 <Vorpal> since the cable itself is being detected by the phone
13:26:20 <fizzie> Mhm, that'd make sense.
13:26:25 <Vorpal> even with nothing at the other end
13:26:28 <fizzie> Does it have more than one USB port? I suppose not.
13:26:34 <Vorpal> nope
13:26:43 <fizzie> I was hoping you could connect it to itself.
13:26:45 <Vorpal> going to try my Saitek X52 Pro Joystick now
13:27:02 <Vorpal> well the joystick powers on...
13:27:09 <Vorpal> but the phone said nothing
13:27:33 <Vorpal> oh well
13:27:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, it works with mouse, keyboard, USB sticks and that sort of stuff
13:27:54 <Vorpal> and apparently some printers
13:28:03 <Vorpal> hm web cam!
13:28:05 <Vorpal> lets try that
13:28:21 <Vorpal> old old old webcam
13:28:29 <fizzie> My keyboard reports "MaxPower 300mA" in lsusb -v, but it worked in the RPi's built-in USB port; was a bit worried. (Those are officially rated only for single unit load devices.)
13:28:46 <Vorpal> hm nope
13:29:02 <Vorpal> does the webcam even work *tries in a computer*
13:29:26 <Vorpal> well windows says "no driver found". Linux seems to handle it as usual with older hardware
13:29:58 <Vorpal> for the record, lsusb identifies it as a "Bus 003 Device 002: ID 046d:0870 Logitech, Inc. QuickCam Express"
13:30:28 <fizzie> Webcam support went a lot nicer ever since that gspca thing was rolled into the mainline kernel.
13:30:43 <Vorpal> I would try my graph calculator, but I have a TI BlackLink for that
13:30:46 <Vorpal> so serial port
13:31:27 <fizzie> I have a useless webcam around here somewhere too.
13:31:50 <fizzie> Does 640x480 and is usable only with very well-lit targets.
13:31:53 <Vorpal> not sure if I have any crazy stuff left to experiment with
13:31:54 <Vorpal> oh wait
13:32:02 <Vorpal> I have an old dumb phone with USB somewhere
13:32:06 <Vorpal> it is a samsung as well
13:32:09 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the Windows drivers worked a lot better, so maybe there's a gain setting that the Linux driver doesn't know about.
13:32:13 <Vorpal> so that should totally work, right? XD
13:32:59 <fizzie> Do you have any USB wifi dongles?
13:33:12 <Vorpal> nope
13:33:59 <Vorpal> samsung on samsung action: both phones turned on their screens when connected, but showed no further interest in each other. One wasn't even charging the other
13:34:08 <fizzie> Was wondering if it'd support that. Sounds a bit pointless, but not too far out.
13:34:16 <fizzie> This webcam is by Saitek.
13:34:28 <Vorpal> Saitek made webcams?
13:34:38 <fizzie> Apparently so.
13:34:50 <Vorpal> I thought they only made HID devices
13:35:00 <Vorpal> hm, HID devices is a bit silly, like PIN number
13:35:21 <fizzie> It looks like this: http://www.cbiz.nu/Media/Cache/Images/3/8/WEB_Image%20Saitek%20Flexicam%20webkamera%20%20webcam%20631362926.Jpeg
13:35:34 <fizzie> (It folds down to be a short cylindrical thing.)
13:35:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe Nokia on samsung will work better? have an old dumbphone nokia that I now use as an incredibly loud alarm clock (it rocks for that)
13:36:04 <Vorpal> think it has usb
13:36:09 <kmc> no, acronyms are words, they should be used in the clearest way without getting hung up on the etymology of the word
13:36:11 <Vorpal> might be usb mini instead of micro though
13:36:19 <fizzie> You'd think the old phone would work as a mass storage device just fine.
13:36:21 <fizzie> Bus 001 Device 028: ID 0c45:60fc Microdia PC Camera with Mic (SN9C105)
13:36:35 <fizzie> I don't think it actually has a microphone, though. But maybe it does.
13:36:41 <kmc> there are situations where "ATM machine" flows better than "ATM" in a sentence, and it's not like when people hear "ATM" they think to themselves "automated teller machine"
13:36:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, my old phones don't do mass storage
13:36:55 <fizzie> bInterfaceClass 1 Audio
13:36:55 <fizzie> bInterfaceSubClass 2 Streaming
13:36:58 <fizzie> Well, look at that.
13:37:17 <Vorpal> ah the nokia does USB micro
13:37:22 <kmc> so yeah I think saying "Linux has good support for HID devices" sounds better than "Linux has good support for HIDs" and that's fine
13:38:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey, the nokia asks if I want to connect as "PC Suite" or "Utskrift & media" to the other thing, with "Datalagring" greyed out
13:38:17 <Vorpal> I think the last one is greyed out since it doesn't have a microsd card
13:38:39 <Vorpal> neither of the available options do anything though
13:38:51 <fizzie> [4322122.491248] input: sonixj as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:12.2/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/input/input29
13:38:56 <fizzie> Hah, the camera even has a button.
13:39:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny thing, that Nokia doesn't charge through USB
13:39:39 <Vorpal> it uses a separate connector for that
13:40:27 <Vorpal> hey, lego USB tower doesn't work on 64-bit windows 7
13:40:33 <Vorpal> works fine on linux still
13:40:37 <Vorpal> though not on the phone
13:41:00 <fizzie> My work phone (Nokia C2-01) came with a charger for the "small hole" (2mm or whatever), even though it does have a µUSB port, and can charge through that.
13:41:09 <Vorpal> heh
13:41:36 <fizzie> The USB hole is in the side of the phone, under one of those tiny plastic flaps, though; the regular charger connector is in the top and always open.
13:41:42 <Vorpal> hm what about my camera... if I can find the USB cable for that (it uses a non-standard connector)
13:42:20 <fizzie> I get a "type 1 (EV_KEY), code 212 (KEY_CAMERA), value 1" out of /dev/input/event10 when I press the button in the webcam.
13:42:44 <Vorpal> heh
13:43:03 <Vorpal> where the hell is the battery for the camera...
13:43:44 <Vorpal> or the charger...
13:45:51 <fizzie> Oh yes, the camera quality was just as horrible as I thought.
13:47:36 <Vorpal> hm what about a hub
13:47:43 <Vorpal> I should have a powered hub somewhere
13:47:50 <Vorpal> USB 1.1 one
13:48:39 <Vorpal> hey I found a non-optical mouse
13:48:53 <fizzie> What you should plug in your phone is one of those cell-modem USB sticks; then you could make phone calls and access the Internet over it, from your phone.
13:49:07 <Vorpal> heh
13:49:11 <Vorpal> don
13:49:14 <Vorpal> don't* have that either
13:50:40 <Vorpal> found USB hub
13:50:46 <Vorpal> not sure where the adapter to it is
13:51:02 <Vorpal> doesn't say which voltage on the port
13:51:03 <Vorpal> so eh
13:51:40 <Vorpal> not going to risk that
13:52:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of USB power, I have a USB stick here that requests two units of power
13:52:40 <Vorpal> weird
13:52:46 <Vorpal> it is just a 512 MB stick
13:52:57 <Vorpal> fairly old
13:55:52 <fizzie> Well, as mentioned, this keyboard requests three.
13:56:02 <fizzie> Admittedly it has a backlight kind of a thing.
13:56:31 <Vorpal> so I watched one video about Halo 4, since I was curious as to what the franchise is about (never played any Halo games)... Guess what the recommended list on the youtube front page is filled with now...
13:56:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it act as a hub as well?
13:57:13 <Vorpal> if so that is probably why
13:57:20 <fizzie> No, it's just a keyboard.
13:57:24 <Vorpal> oh
13:57:27 <Vorpal> backlight then
13:57:50 <fizzie> My #1 recommendation seems to be some *really* bizarre-looking Sonic comic thing.
13:58:09 <fizzie> Probably I clicked some links from the Sonic let's-play videos, they had some rather bizarre links too.
13:58:53 <fizzie> There's a badly drawn Sonic in a hospital bed with both hands bandaged, and an annoyed-looking Knuckles looking at him.
13:59:05 <fizzie> (In the thumbnail; I don't think I want to watch the video.)
13:59:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, youtube is currently ONLY recommending Halo
13:59:35 <Vorpal> 100%
13:59:41 <fizzie> Heh.
13:59:50 <fizzie> There probably are quite a few Halo videos around.
14:00:07 <Vorpal> I think they need a bit of inertia added to that algorithm
14:00:59 <fizzie> Gah. I went to the "recommended for you" page, and there the #1 hit is "Funny pics of Sonic and friends 2", where the thumbnail is a comic of Amy and Shadow kissing.
14:01:09 <Vorpal> who?
14:01:15 <Vorpal> I never played any sonic game
14:01:30 <Vorpal> I know who knuckles is, but Amy and Shadow? no clue
14:01:36 <fizzie> Amy is canonically Sonic's girlfriend, or at least a clingy thing that'd want to be his girlfriend.
14:01:39 <fizzie> She's very pink.
14:02:02 <fizzie> And Shadow is kind of like Sonic except all edgy and dark and antihero. He shoots guns, and works for G.U.N. or something.
14:02:06 <Vorpal> " or at least a clingy thing that'd want to be his girlfriend." <-- oh? some drama there? Unanswered love?
14:02:27 <fizzie> Yes, I think Sonic is mostly depicted as being annoyed by her.
14:02:46 <fizzie> She does seem quite annoying, so maybe that's understandable.
14:03:46 <fizzie> There was some backstory for Shadow, but I've forgotten what it was. Some kind of an attempt to create the "ultimate life form".
14:04:22 <fizzie> He's Sonic's adversary in some games, but also an ally in others.
14:05:03 <Vorpal> I see
14:05:04 <fizzie> All very interesting, I'm sure. :p
14:05:12 <Vorpal> Sonic have any sort of story to it?
14:05:18 <Vorpal> other than, beat the boss
14:05:37 <fizzie> The newer games tend to have bit more of that; and then there's of course the comics.
14:07:08 <fizzie> Sonic 3 & Knuckles have that emerald-stealing plot, so there's a bit of a story there.
14:07:42 <FreeFull> There was always Eggman trapping little animals
14:07:47 <FreeFull> And turning them into robots
14:07:54 <fizzie> Yes, there's that too.
14:08:49 <fizzie> But the new games do have cutscenes and all that fluff, and a story.
14:09:25 <nortti> what am I reading?
14:09:51 <fizzie> You're reading #esoteric, the global hub of whatever it was.
14:09:54 <fizzie> `welcome nortti
14:10:09 <fizzie> ...
14:10:14 <FreeFull> Sonic Adventure was released in 1998/1999, does that still count as new?
14:10:14 <nortti> :D
14:10:16 <HackEgo> nortti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:10:24 <nortti> FreeFull: I'd say so
14:10:35 <Vorpal> <FreeFull> And turning them into robots <-- how?
14:10:36 <nortti> but I think most people will disagree
14:10:40 <fizzie> FreeFull: It's threedee, it's new.
14:10:50 <Vorpal> it seems an terribly inefficient way to get hold of the component materials
14:10:56 <Vorpal> even if blod is quite rich in iron
14:11:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: The animals are still inside the robots.
14:11:06 <FreeFull> Original Sonic The Hedgehog came out in 1991
14:11:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay?
14:11:19 <FreeFull> So 7 years between original and Adventure
14:11:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or something like that, anyway. I really don't know what the point is.
14:11:37 <FreeFull> But 14 years between Adventure and now
14:11:38 <Vorpal> ah
14:11:57 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes, yes, but it's all "new games" since Sonic & Knuckles anyway.
14:12:41 <fizzie> ("Since" in the non-inclusive sense.)
14:23:43 <fizzie> http://hs11.snstatic.fi/webkuva/oletus/560/1305612374418?ts=176 -- yesterday, this was still a water tower.
14:24:00 <fizzie> (Then the two-million-litre tank fell off, this morning.)
14:24:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, where? And was anyone hurt?
14:24:22 <Vorpal> also, what about the flood from that
14:24:28 <fizzie> In Jyväskylä; and no, there's nobody living nearby.
14:24:38 <fizzie> Or at least too nearby.
14:25:02 <fizzie> I don't think those things tend to break quite that spectacularly, usually.
14:25:42 <fizzie> Here's a "before" shot: http://static.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/tattijuttu0311MH_uu.jpg
14:25:52 <fizzie> The stump is what's left.
14:27:45 <Vorpal> heh
14:27:57 <Vorpal> that is a very clean break
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16:53:57 <elliott> 04:46:28: <kmc> does your dad have any evidence or credibility
16:54:02 <elliott> kmc: the generalised answer to this is "no" btw
16:55:19 <elliott> 11:28:16: <Jafet> What is Hexham.
16:55:22 <elliott> Jafet: what isn't hexham
16:57:01 <elliott> kmc: "As of October 2009, the states of Florida, Colorado, Utah,[11][12][13] Hawaii, Maine and Vermont had passed laws forbidding bans on clothes lines."
16:57:06 <elliott> kmc: laws forbidding bans
16:57:13 <elliott> (re: dryer thing. why am i looking this up)
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17:00:03 <kmc> heh
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17:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "I always thought Chan4 was a branch of BBC." -- redditor
17:10:07 <kmc> that is, as i believe the kids these days say, "lulzy"
17:10:39 <kmc> one of my coworkers uses that word all the time and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me
17:11:45 <elliott> it sounds like he is trololololing you so that u mad
17:11:47 <elliott> ugh kill me
17:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> there is a guy in my kitchen who is like that it is so annoying
17:16:43 <kmc> elliott: ok i'll get right on that
17:17:09 <elliott> ok
17:17:17 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: like, some guy just showed up in the kitchen in your house and won't leave and talks in internet memes only?
17:17:42 <kmc> that would be a good plot point for a wacky post-modern sitcom slash angst-inducing existentialist play
17:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> no, we just share a kitchen in the halls
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17:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> that would be an awesome play though
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18:45:30 <kmc> woah there are a lot of birds in my yard now
18:45:55 <kmc> two robins, two bluejays, a bunch of sparrows, a starling, and possibly a mockingbird
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18:47:38 <kmc> not as pretty as this starling though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lamprotornis_hildebrandti_-Tanzania-8-2c.jpg
18:52:27 <fizzie> A startling starling.
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19:57:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> kmc: "As of October 2009, the states of Florida, Colorado, Utah,[11][12][13] Hawaii, Maine and Vermont had passed laws forbidding bans on clothes lines." <-- lol what? banning cloth lines?
19:57:54 <Vorpal> in what context? Sale of them or just using them to hang clothes on?
19:59:19 * Vorpal googles it
19:59:46 <Vorpal> okay... that's weird
20:01:42 <kmc> maybe because they are deemed unsightly?
20:02:02 <Vorpal> apparently it is associated with poverty in some parts of US.
20:02:06 <Vorpal> very strange
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20:02:18 <elliott> kmc: Vorpal: you are both misreading
20:02:22 <elliott> they passed laws *forbidding* bans
20:02:26 <elliott> unless i am misreading you in turn
20:02:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I understand that
20:02:35 <kmc> the question is why there were bans in the first place
20:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I just find the concept of them being banned in the first place so weird
20:02:50 <kmc> and yeah http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/us/11clothesline.html
20:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so I was investigating that
20:02:54 <kmc> fucking NIMBYs
20:03:00 <Vorpal> kmc, fucking what?
20:03:23 <elliott> nimbys
20:03:29 * Vorpal googles that
20:03:42 <Vorpal> ah I see
20:04:50 <fizzie> "-- a time before clotheslines became synonymous with being too poor to afford a dryer --"
20:05:00 <fizzie> Weird stuff.
20:05:01 <kmc> it's really fucked the degree to which your neighbors can screw with your if your house doesn't match the ideal of perfect soulless suburbian mcmansion
20:05:35 <elliott> have these people ever actually used a drying machine
20:05:37 <elliott> they are sort of awful
20:05:44 <Vorpal> kmc, in US maybe... You can't really do that stuff over here
20:05:44 <kmc> elliott: no the ones in the USA are great
20:05:53 <elliott> kmc: reall
20:05:53 <elliott> kmc: really
20:05:56 <kmc> for some reason all the drying machines in the UK are awful
20:06:02 <elliott> nice
20:06:02 <kmc> i blame hitler
20:06:28 <elliott> clothes-line-dried clothes are really nice though, i am going to be a luddite and say not even fancy us drying machines can compare
20:06:39 <Vorpal> heck you don't even need to contact the planning offices if what you are building is small enough (forgot exact size, iirc something like 8 m² or such)
20:07:27 <kmc> houses in the UK are destroyed => flimsy post-war houses built with shitty wiring => can't run a clothes dryer
20:07:33 <kmc> ring circuits!
20:07:40 <Vorpal> hah
20:07:52 <kmc> in the USA a clothes dryer is a huge thing which plugs into a special outlet that has twice as many volts as usual
20:08:07 <fizzie> Your twice as many volts, isn't that our regular? :p
20:08:08 <kmc> and it will dry a big load of clothes completely in about an hour
20:08:11 <kmc> yeah
20:08:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, you beat me to that
20:08:30 <kmc> presumably it is rated for more current as well, but i don't know the figure off hand
20:08:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, no that is just 220 actually
20:08:58 <Vorpal> we use 230
20:09:02 <kmc> probably 30A
20:09:06 <fizzie> Well *our* dryers plug into three-phase power. (Not really.)
20:09:29 <Vorpal> hey, I think our washing machine is three phase
20:10:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:11:07 <Vorpal> and the stove. Since there are three fuses protecting it and parts of it still works when the fuses are blown.
20:11:23 <Vorpal> don't have a cloth drier though
20:11:55 <fizzie> Some of the washing machines in some more communal laundry places have used industrial plugs -- the IEC 60309 "CEE" ones -- though I haven't checked whether it's single-phase or three-phase.
20:12:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, is your stove three phase though?
20:12:28 <fizzie> Sure.
20:12:50 <Vorpal> I think there is also a three phase outlet in the greenhouse
20:12:55 <Vorpal> since I
20:13:02 <fizzie> But the washing machine isn't; it's just regular Schuko.
20:13:06 <fizzie> Then again, it's pretty dinky.
20:13:10 <Vorpal> I'm not the one interested in gardening in this household I have no idea what it is used for
20:13:15 <Vorpal> some sort of heating or something maybe?
20:14:15 -!- nooga has joined.
20:14:48 <fizzie> "A small number of marinas provide 230 V single-phase power through a red three-phase connector (breaking the relevant standards in the process). This goes some way to ensuring that only boats that have paid the required fee (and thus obtained an appropriately made-up adaptor cable) are able to use the electricity." Heh, nasty.
20:15:12 <Vorpal> hah
20:15:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, or you could make one yourself pretty easily
20:16:06 <Lumpio-> Wouldn't it be easier to, I dunno, put locks on the power boxes
20:16:18 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, probably
20:17:35 <fizzie> We've got a blue CEE 2P+E single-phase <-> Schuko adapter in the boat, since marinas indeed quite often have the former.
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20:18:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, does the former have any advantage?
20:18:43 <Vorpal> like water resistance or something?
20:18:49 <fizzie> I suppose it's maybe more rugged by default.
20:18:55 <Vorpal> ah
20:19:13 <fizzie> Though you could just put a flap on top of the regular outlet.
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20:19:39 <fizzie> Maybe it's rated for a bit more current too, the standard size is I think 16A.
20:19:54 <fizzie> I just seem to recall that's Schuko's rating too.
20:20:16 <fizzie> Apparently so.
20:24:41 <kmc> 'Ruby on Rails Jobs - www.mirRoRplacement.com - All we do is work with startups seeking Ruby on Rails developers.'
20:24:56 <kmc> 'Rails didn’t just help us build better web apps, it introduced us to the most welcoming and nourishing developer community we’ve experienced.'
20:24:59 <kmc> mmmmmm yes nourishing
20:25:34 <fizzie> I was looking at this µUSB charger that came with a Bluetooth headset, to see if I could use it also to provide power to the RPi; it's a mains-powered standalone charger, but according to the markings it manages to provide the 5V DC current at a stupendous 180 mA.
20:25:43 <fizzie> No wonder charging the phone with that didn't quite work out.
20:26:21 <fizzie> (The phone's own bundled charger does 1.2A or so.)
20:29:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perilex do you have this kind of thing? It mentions "Sweden" in the first paragraph.
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20:29:34 <FreeFull> Never saw one of those before
20:29:54 <fizzie> It looks kind of silly.
20:30:09 <elliott> fizzie: PerilEx sounds like a Win32 API function that gives extended peril.
20:30:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you seen the bottom of https://www.apple.com/uk/ ? Heh.
20:30:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, not familiar with it.
20:30:43 <elliott> Vorpal: that is less flashy than i was hoping
20:30:49 <elliott> i was hoping for a full-page "samsung tablets are awesome" ad
20:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, quite so
20:31:14 <Vorpal> Weren't those supposed to go into news papers or something?
20:31:19 <Vorpal> have that happened yet
20:31:35 <fizzie> I seem to recall that the earlier statement was more like "the court said our tables are significantly cooler, so there, nyah nyah".
20:31:39 <fizzie> Tablets.
20:31:47 <fizzie> Though I'm sure Apple's tables are quite cool too.
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21:54:32 <kmc> Tables, reinvented. Again.
21:54:42 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy has been UPDATed
21:55:12 <elliott> hi
21:57:46 <monqy> hi
22:02:58 <monqy> Sgeo: add nooodl to the list btw
22:03:10 <nooodl> hi
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22:15:57 <ais523> my mother is trying to install a purchased copy of Office on a new computer
22:16:08 <ais523> doing so apparently requires creating a Windows Live account before they'll tell you your product key
22:16:22 <ais523> and giving a lot of personal information as a result
22:16:27 <ais523> she doesn't understand why
22:18:06 <ais523> anyone here have a built-in explanation?
22:18:37 <kmc> microsoft gotta get paid
22:19:06 <ais523> this is after buying a copy of office, though
22:20:02 <FreeFull> :/
22:20:14 <FreeFull> Wtf would Office require a live account
22:20:25 <nooodl> ais523: which office version is that?
22:20:55 <ais523> 2010, no-CD-in-box version
22:21:07 <ais523> they give you a code that you can put into their website to get the product key
22:21:15 <ais523> but the website also forces you to log in
22:21:46 <kmc> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/10/31/nyregion/20121031_SANDY_GOBIG-slide-KULN/20121031_SANDY_GOBIG-slide-KULN-jumbo.jpg
22:22:10 <kmc> presumably it makes it harder in some way to use the same key twice
22:23:56 <nooodl> i'm thinking it's an anti-piracy thing yeah
22:28:40 <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, for most people libreoffice should be just fine
22:28:48 <kmc> hahahaha
22:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> good one Vorpal
22:29:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the powerpoint replacement is kind of terrible, but the spreadsheet and document editing parts are okay
22:29:47 <Vorpal> at least for me
22:29:57 <Sgeo> Unless you're trying to work on documents that are slightly more complicated than an essay with someone who uses Office.
22:30:03 <kmc> do they properly import and export -- yeah
22:30:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, hm okay. Is that with docx or doc though?
22:30:21 <Vorpal> never really worked with docx
22:30:59 <Sgeo> Vorpal, even if doc worked perfectly, if docx doesn't, are you really going to convince everyone to save as doc?
22:31:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, we use .doc, .xls and so on at work for compatibility reasons, even though we have modern office
22:31:36 <Vorpal> so eh, doesn't seem unreasonable
22:33:07 <Vorpal> I don't have office at home, works just fine for me.
22:33:24 <Vorpal> don't use libreoffice a lot either though.
22:34:20 <nortti> why is everyone using libreoffice instead of openoffice?
22:34:44 <Vorpal> when I last installed/upgraded it, openoffice was oracle, not sure if that is still the case
22:34:54 <nortti> no. it is now apache
22:34:57 <Vorpal> ah
22:35:03 <Vorpal> nortti, what is the difference nowdays then
22:35:53 <nortti> Vorpal: openoffice is under apache license
22:36:08 <Vorpal> fair enough
22:36:14 <Vorpal> nortti, and the other one is under gpl?
22:36:30 <nortti> yes
22:36:37 <Vorpal> I couldn't care less then.
22:36:42 <Vorpal> any feature differences?
22:37:18 <nortti> I think no
22:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> one of them is run by oracle, no?
22:37:42 <nortti> not anymore
22:37:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, except it isn't any longer it seems
22:37:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oracle divested OpenOffice to Apache.
22:37:50 <tswett> Hey, you know these? http://i.imgur.com/VpfZV.jpg
22:37:59 <tswett> I just made a subreddit for them. http://www.reddit.com/r/westwoods/
22:38:13 <pikhq> LibreOffice is by far the better one.
22:38:22 <nortti> why?
22:39:21 <pikhq> A major part of their development has been targetted towards "making it not suck". They've removed tons of dead code, and made it *actually integrate* into the UI on Linux systems...
22:39:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, which UI on linux? All of them?
22:39:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: It integrates with GTK2, GTK3, and Qt.
22:40:01 <Vorpal> aww, no motif
22:40:07 <nortti> aww, no xaw
22:40:21 <pikhq> Only the useful targets.
22:40:28 <nortti> why nothing integrates to my twm desktop?
22:40:31 <Vorpal> what about CDE? for those poor SunOS users out there?
22:40:33 <pikhq> OO.o just looked like a Win95 program.
22:40:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: *Solaris* has been on GNOME for over a decade now. :)
22:40:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, I know
22:41:01 <Vorpal> guess why I said SunOS specifically
22:41:03 <pikhq> Fuck SunOS.
22:41:12 <Vorpal> true
22:41:21 <nortti> why?
22:41:40 <Vorpal> it is ancient=?
22:41:43 <Vorpal> s/=//
22:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti confirmed to be obnoxiously curious toddler
22:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> news at 11
22:42:16 <nortti> :D
22:42:38 <nortti> but really, what is so wrong with SunOS and Solaris
22:42:40 <nortti> +?
22:42:51 <kmc> but Motif is now free software!!!
22:43:04 <nortti> and so is cde
22:43:07 <Vorpal> kmc, heirloom or what?
22:43:19 <kmc> don't know what that means
22:43:27 <Vorpal> heirloom toolkit
22:43:32 <Vorpal> some old *nix tools
22:43:44 <Vorpal> probably even older ones though
22:43:49 <Vorpal> sysv and such iirc
22:43:50 <kmc> what does that have to do with motif
22:43:52 <Vorpal> forgot the details
22:44:00 <Vorpal> kmc, motif would fit right into there :P
22:44:06 <Vorpal> who uses it these days
22:44:32 <nortti> I do
22:44:51 <nortti> I use either motif, xaw or tk
22:44:51 <kmc> i would guess that "Fuck SunOS" is by contrast to Solaris
22:45:24 <elliott> tswett: is your name greg
22:46:12 <tswett> elliott: yes.
22:46:18 <tswett> Well, no.
22:46:19 <elliott> tanner greg swett
22:46:30 <tswett> But it's part of my reddit username.
22:46:33 <shachaf> Did someone say something about uncomputable axioms?
22:46:38 <monqy> hi shachaf
22:46:58 <tswett> Yeah, there's this funny thing I learned recently.
22:47:01 <tswett> I'll have to tell you about it later.
22:47:16 <shachaf> hi monqy
22:47:21 <shachaf> monqy: how's monqying
22:47:27 <monqy> ok
22:47:37 <shachaf> just ok :'(
22:48:33 <ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, for most people libreoffice should be just fine ← she says it's so that the corporate IT people where she works won't refuse to support her when she has trouble showing a presentation
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22:49:21 <Vorpal> ah
22:49:28 <Vorpal> fair enough
22:49:50 <Vorpal> ais523, but that is on her home computer?
22:49:53 <Vorpal> hm
22:50:03 <ais523> Vorpal: she's making the presentations at home and showing them at work
22:50:07 <Vorpal> ah
22:50:49 <shachaf> monqy: make a smiley face
22:50:58 <monqy> why should i
22:51:24 <nortti> monqy: because :)
22:54:13 <ais523> haha, the words "Completing Office setup" are being shown in the windows 3.1 system font
22:54:22 <ais523> except it seems to have been doubled in size by doubling the pixels
22:55:36 <nortti> what?
22:55:40 <nortti> what office?
22:57:06 <elliott> imagine a world in which nortti does not pretend not to konw what people are talking about
22:57:35 <monqy> sorry elliott i can't
22:57:39 <monqy> my imagination: kaput???
22:58:44 <elliott> monqy: kaput is such a good word
22:58:50 <elliott> can you think of a better word; i can't
22:59:33 <monqy> not off the top of my head. imagination remember
23:00:11 <elliott> remembering things isn't imagination, monqy
23:00:16 <shachaf> elliott: what about: doff
23:00:37 <elliott> shachaf: no
23:00:43 <shachaf> elliott: what about: paraphernalia
23:00:52 <elliott> shachaf: no
23:01:10 <shachaf> elliott: what about: אצטרובל
23:01:21 <elliott> shachaf: no
23:01:45 <shachaf> elliott: what about: hypothesisn't
23:02:05 <nortti> elliott: I am not sure if it is refering to openoffice, libreoffice or (most probably) microsoft office
23:02:41 <monqy> too bad ais never said which it was earlier
23:02:46 <shachaf> elliott: what about: experiphysically
23:02:51 <shachaf> elliott: help
23:02:55 <elliott> shachaf: what is the point of this
23:03:10 <elliott> nortti: do you use Vorpal's irc client
23:03:11 <shachaf> elliott: good point
23:03:19 <nortti> elliott: no. why do you ask?
23:03:49 <elliott> Vorpal's irc-client is well-known to not support backlog
23:04:00 <nortti> why?
23:04:17 <elliott> you'd have to ask him
23:04:37 <elliott> some suspect that it was not his client but in fact himself who chose to not read backlog to the inconvenience of others
23:04:41 <elliott> but those are just rumours
23:05:57 <nortti> I think I found the lin you were talking about but it looks like this: 00:48 < ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, �~augur@] has quit [Remote host closed the connecti
23:06:24 <elliott> it was actually more like 30 lines
23:06:34 <ais523> nortti: for reference, Microsoft Office 2010
23:06:40 <ais523> (the exact version number hadn't been mentioned before)
23:06:43 <ais523> Home & Student
23:07:06 <nortti> elliott: that is only ais line I can find before my backlog goes so corrupted it can't be read
23:07:23 <elliott> maybe you should use an irc client that doesn't corrupt your backlog
23:07:27 <elliott> quite a good feature IMHO
23:07:31 <nortti> I am using irśssi
23:07:46 <elliott> i don't dare to ask how that differs from irssi
23:07:55 <nortti> *irssi
23:08:52 <nortti> the problem is either ncurses version in broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009, irssi compiled wrong or screen messing something up
23:09:25 <monqy> have you asked the geek squad
23:09:30 <nortti> no
23:09:49 <elliott> nortti: have you tried not using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009
23:10:25 <nortti> elliott: it is not my server. it is mailserver of my irc friend
23:10:47 <nortti> monqy: irssi is up to date
23:11:00 <elliott> nortti: have you tried not using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009
23:11:22 <nortti> elliott: yes. the problem was not present on my own computer
23:12:31 <monqy> but you'r still using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009??
23:12:48 <monqy> is this some sort of friend agreement
23:12:52 <nortti> no
23:12:57 <monqy> use the mailserver or you are no longer pals
23:13:03 <elliott> monqy: the dumpster gods wanted his computer back
23:13:12 <nortti> oh no!
23:13:19 <nortti> don't take my computer!
23:13:41 <nortti> monqy: it is just so much easier to run irssi on server I can stab
23:13:49 <nortti> *stand backlog corruption
23:14:18 <Sgeo> elliott, do you still SO?
23:14:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/12kz49/what_optimizations_can_ghc_be_expected_to_perform/
23:14:44 <Sgeo> "[SO, bounty, expires in 20 hours]"
23:15:00 <elliott> i answer questions on SO occasionally when i feel like it
23:15:24 <elliott> writing a gigantic answer in 20 hours for some points is not quite up my alley
23:15:34 <elliott> it's not even that large a bounty!! i need larger internet point bribes than that
23:15:45 -!- augur has joined.
23:15:50 <ais523> nortti: this line contains a UTF-8 character in the Latin-1 range: é and one outside the Latin-1 range: ņ and then it continues on afterwards
23:15:55 <ais523> how does it look for you?
23:17:04 <nortti> ais523: < ais523> nortti: this line contains a UTF-8 character in the Latin-1 range: é and one outside the Latin-1 range:
23:17:25 <nortti> that is 2 lines by the way
23:17:30 <ais523> nortti: "and then it continues on afterwards"
23:17:42 <nortti> hmm
23:17:48 <elliott> ņhi guys what's up
23:17:59 <ais523> elliott: that was my idea too
23:18:06 <nortti> ok. it seems it converts utf-8 to latin-1 and then back to utf-8
23:18:13 <nortti> just why
23:18:14 <elliott> ņ ais523: it was someone else's, also
23:18:25 <elliott> ņ something about microsoft office
23:18:38 <ais523> elliott: how did you hide lines from Vorpal, again?
23:18:41 <ais523> was it starting them "ehird:"?
23:18:56 <nortti> elliott: I can see what you are talking about from logs
23:19:06 <shachaf> ehird: hi monqy
23:19:11 <elliott> ņ if you have to read the logs, then you'll be able to see the context
23:19:13 <elliott> shachaf: shut up
23:19:29 <elliott> ais523: i forget
23:19:32 <shachaf> elliott: Make ais523 kick me!
23:19:35 <shachaf> spam
23:19:35 <shachaf> spam
23:19:36 <shachaf> spam
23:19:39 <shachaf> ais523: ☝
23:19:44 <nortti> well not straight from the logs but tail -f irclogs/freenode/\
23:19:51 <elliott> shachaf: how about you just stop being a fucking moron and embarrassing yourself by acting like an idiot whenever me or monqy talks
23:19:52 <elliott> thanks
23:20:02 <nortti> *tail -f irclogs/freenode/\#esoteric.log | cat -v works
23:20:05 <ais523> shachaf: this is not an interesting meme
23:20:18 <ais523> and it's one that's quite harmful for productive discussion
23:20:24 * nortti kicks shachaf
23:20:25 <ais523> about the best you can hope for is everyone ignoring you
23:20:34 <shachaf> Hmm.
23:20:43 <shachaf> That's a good deal worse than kicking. :-(
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00:07:13 <kmc> dickachu
00:07:40 * pikhq translates to Japanese
00:07:42 <pikhq> Pikachin
00:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> dikhq
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00:21:55 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/31/us/2012-sandy-POD-2.html#/?slide=11 Our Lady of the Extension Cord
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00:27:14 <ion> :-D http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/12kce9/apple_resizes_website_so_that_the_samsung_apology/
00:36:37 <elliott> "It is there specifically to get the bottom 310px of the website out of view. Independent of screen resolution."
00:36:37 <elliott> amazing
00:41:12 <elliott> "This code appears in most of Apple's non-US sites, not just the UK site." aw
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01:44:04 <shachaf> kmc:
01:44:06 <shachaf> @ty flip
01:44:07 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
01:44:13 <shachaf> It's not everything, but it's something!
01:44:17 <kmc> heh
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01:47:14 <shachaf> > over both (+1) (1,2)
01:47:18 <lambdabot> (2,3)
01:47:42 <shachaf> > toListOf (traverse._1) [(1,2),(3,4),(5,6),(7,8)]
01:47:44 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7]
01:50:11 <elliott> > both succ (1,2)
01:50:14 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Enum.Enum (f0 b0), GHC.Num.Num (f0 b0))
01:50:14 <lambdabot> arising fr...
01:50:16 <elliott> :-(
01:50:18 <elliott> :-----(
01:50:25 <elliott> )-------------------------------------------:
01:50:32 <elliott> > both (pure . succ) (1,2)
01:50:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f0 (b0, b0)))
01:50:34 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M48...
01:50:39 <elliott> > runIdentity $ both (pure . succ) (1,2)
01:50:41 <lambdabot> (2,3)
01:50:44 <elliott> yuck
01:50:50 <elliott> :t over
01:50:51 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
01:51:27 <shachaf> · ·
01:51:29 <shachaf> |
01:51:33 <shachaf> /-\
01:51:49 <kmc> is that the king of all cosmos?
01:54:18 <ion> :───────────┐
01:54:20 <ion> ┌──────┼───────┬────D
01:54:22 <ion> └──────┘ └────D
01:57:13 <elliott> :(
01:57:59 <FireFly> ...what exactly is that meant to be?
01:58:14 <pikhq> Alien dick?
01:58:38 <FireFly> A..ha
01:58:47 <olsner> the two-faced smile of ion
01:59:31 <kmc> A-ha?
02:00:01 <kmc> ion++ for using line drawing characters
02:00:06 <kmc> line drawing characters are the best
02:01:18 <shachaf> ┌─────────┐
02:01:19 <shachaf> │I ♥ CP437│
02:01:21 <shachaf> └─────────┘
02:04:26 <kmc> my terminal font does a really, really bad job with the ♥ character
02:04:30 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/sW4qQ.png
02:04:49 <kmc> i don't think it was always thus
02:05:25 <ion> You should ask for your money back.
02:06:17 <shachaf> What's your terminal and font?
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02:12:44 <kmc> rxvt-unicode -bg black -fg white -fn "x:6x13"
02:13:15 <kmc> sometimes my computer does this thing where it uses up all the ram (?) and then there is weird graphics corruption that doesn't fully go away
02:13:28 <kmc> like not just the framebuffer gets corrupted but various offscreen buffers that programs keep using
02:13:31 <kmc> so maybe this is that
02:13:36 <kmc> or maybe it's the fault of a dist-upgrade
02:13:39 <kmc> or maybe i'm just cursed
02:13:41 <olsner> that's what happens when you fill the bitbucket
02:16:54 <FreeFull> Bits spill out
02:17:01 <FreeFull> And have a war
02:21:05 <olsner> halp, I'm thinking about watching SG-1 again
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02:24:00 <kmc> is that a good one or no
02:28:01 <shachaf> I like the font "Monospace".
02:28:06 <shachaf> It's the default one.
02:28:08 <shachaf> Very good font.
02:28:23 <olsner> i also have a monospace font
02:28:31 <shachaf> I think you can get it in urxvt with -fn 'xft:Monospace'
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02:30:37 <olsner> or by putting "URxvt.font: xft:Terminus:size=8" in .Xdefaults
02:37:11 <kmc> yeah i'll have to look into that
02:37:20 <kmc> i can become one of these droid sans mono evangelists
02:37:36 <kmc> your choice of fonts really says a lot about you as a programmer
02:37:41 <kmc> it can define whether you're a rockstar or more of a ninja
02:37:48 <olsner> yeah, it has to be some obscure unreadable but supposedly-really-good-for-code font
02:38:24 <kmc> "The color camera on Apollo 12 provided a few brief moments of color telecasting before it was inadvertently pointed at the Sun, ending its usefulness."
02:38:56 <kmc> how much money was spent to send this fancy camera to the goddamn moon and then "whoops"
02:39:13 <Bike> hey be fair. the sun is pretty big!
02:39:29 <kmc> it's much bigger up there in space
02:39:55 <olsner> it gets bigger the closer to the sky you get
02:40:11 <kmc> until you hit the bounding box and then you just can't move even though your legs are moving
02:52:10 <FreeFull> shachaf: Monospace is actually an alias to a different font
02:52:26 <FreeFull> It gets you either Bitstream Vera Sans Mono or DejaVu Sans Mono, I don't know which
02:52:34 <Sgeo> Hmm
02:52:39 <Sgeo> There exists a Tcl-Java bridge
02:52:49 <monqy> hi sgeo
02:52:56 <monqy> whats this about??
02:52:59 <Bike> haha, why the fuck?
02:53:03 <Sgeo> Wonder if I can fix it up so that it can interact with Clojure in a more idiomatic way than dealing with the Java objects directly
02:53:10 <Sgeo> http://tcljava.sourceforge.net/docs/website/
02:54:00 <Sgeo> I actually potentially have a use for this thing, although probably writing my own parser for the data in question and just rewriting the code would make more sense
02:54:46 <elliott> Sgeo: by "use" do you mean "thing you will actually use"
02:55:51 <Sgeo> No. I have no real reason to rewrite this project from scratch, in a way that will possibly cause pain for actual user in that a JVM would be needed.
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02:56:10 <kmc> https://twitter.com/fivethirtynate
02:58:01 <Sgeo> Although actually, Tcl and Clojure are both awesome languages.
02:58:06 <Sgeo> (And I have actually used Tcl)
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03:09:38 <shachaf> FreeFull: No, the font is called "Monospace"
03:09:56 <shachaf> That's the name of the font.
03:10:57 <FreeFull> shachaf: Monospace is an alias
03:11:01 <FreeFull> An alias I say!
03:11:15 <shachaf> MAYBE AN ALIAS FOR "Monospace"
03:11:57 <ion> The “M” stands for “Monospace”.
03:14:28 <shachaf> What does the "onospace" stand for?
03:14:45 <Bike> it's actually a beatles reference
03:15:32 <shachaf> You're a Beatles reference!
03:16:38 <Sgeo> WTF
03:16:46 <ion> In space, no-one can hear you marry John Lennon.
03:16:48 <Sgeo> Some people in New Jersey might be ... voting by email?
03:17:20 <Bike> i for one support giving our electoral process over to srizbi
03:17:42 <Sgeo> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/03/new-jersey-residents-can-_n_2070016.html
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03:32:53 <shachaf> ion: Man, I should learn Finnish.
03:33:05 <pikhq> shachaf: Learn Japanese and get drunk.
03:33:26 <shachaf> do they have drinking in japan
03:33:35 <ion> shachaf: Noooo, don’t do it
03:33:36 <kmc> great, so they are implementing electronic voting at absolutely the last minute with zero security measures
03:33:50 <pikhq> shachaf: Yes.
03:34:10 <kmc> to be fair there is no real security on mail-in ballots
03:34:36 <kmc> and voter fraud is mainly a bullshit issue used by republicans to make it harder for poor people and minorities to vote
03:34:52 <kmc> and NJ won't matter for the presidential election, anyway
03:35:56 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see that nytimes.com thing?
03:36:01 <kmc> which?
03:36:07 <shachaf> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/11/02/us/politics/paths-to-the-white-house.html
03:37:12 <kmc> yeah, that's cool
03:37:50 <ion> sgeo: Faxes still exist?
03:38:04 <shachaf> ion: No.
03:38:14 <shachaf> If someone claims they have one, you should tell them it's really a faux fax
03:38:19 <ion> shachaf: Why do you think you should learn Finnish?
03:38:44 <shachaf> ion: Because Finnish people should speak Finnish!
03:38:52 <shachaf> Or Swedish, I guess.
03:38:55 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how 70% of the country is completely irrelevant to presidential politics?
03:40:04 <shachaf> kmc: Today I learned about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
03:40:57 <kmc> yeah that is an amusing hack
03:40:59 * pikhq lives in a part that is relevant. Bleh.
03:41:38 <kmc> they're almost halfway there
03:43:43 <kmc> now, what if more states allocated electoral votes per congressional district
03:43:48 <kmc> as ME and NE do
03:43:52 <kmc> would that be good or bad?
03:44:01 <Gregor> That… is such a retarded way to fix the system, but oh well, better than nothing.
03:45:31 <kmc> yep
03:47:30 <kmc> another option is for states to allocate their EVs proportionally to the statewide popular vote, rather than all-or-nothing
03:47:41 <kmc> neither of those requires a compact or a federal constitutional amendment
03:48:45 <Jafet> Oh, it's November already.
03:49:14 <quintopia> yes
03:49:34 <quintopia> some call it "election month" but i call it nanowrimo
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03:51:59 <kmc> some call it erection month
03:54:17 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that be opposed by whatever the majority of a state is, since they're now not as strongly represented?
03:54:31 <pikhq> Why call it "election month"? The majority of the month is taken up by not-election.
03:55:06 <Sgeo> Post-election month, since most of it is post-election, while the beginning is pre-election?
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04:03:40 <Gregor> Sgeo: Really, it should just be opposed by Republicans, since in each election where the popular vote hasn't matched the electoral vote, they've won ;)
04:04:26 <quintopia> Gregor: but like every electoral trend, that could change in any given year
04:08:43 <shachaf> "an electoral trend could change in any given year" sounds like an electoral trend.
04:08:54 <shachaf> Or is that a metaëlectoral trend, and therefore immune to itself?
04:09:52 <quintopia> you are mistaken in interpreting it as a trend
04:10:47 <quintopia> a trend is "this has always been" while that is just "this might or might not be"
04:11:04 <elliott> i dont think thats what trend means
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04:22:35 <quintopia> feel free to define it as you like
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04:23:02 <elliott> Gracenotes: hi
04:23:52 <Gracenotes> hey. how's it?
04:23:58 <shachaf> hi Gracenotes
04:24:03 <shachaf> What brings you here?
04:24:06 <shachaf> `welcome Gracenotes
04:24:19 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:25:10 <elliott> Gracenotes: it's itty
04:25:19 <Gracenotes> When the server my irssi screen session is on resets, sometimes I forget to join channels
04:26:00 <FreeFull> Why don't you have the channels on autojoin
04:26:08 <Gracenotes> and so went my habit of coming here from I-forget-when.
04:26:24 <Gracenotes> I've never liked the idea of autojoin
04:27:02 <Gracenotes> I join so rarely, it doesn't seem worth it >_>
04:28:57 <Gracenotes> well, connect rarely, due to good uptime. in any case, I've made trawls through the wiki here and there when bored :p The only lang I've created was a stack-based lambda calculus interpreter
04:30:45 <kmc> Gregor: i'm not sure if 1824 is a counterexample to what you said or not, it's just that fucked up
04:31:28 <kmc> the candidate with the largest popular vote share and the most electoral votes lost
04:31:35 <kmc> to another candidate from the same party
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04:32:13 <Gregor> Well, yeah, 1824 was just weird.
04:32:54 <kmc> i had forgot about this until just now
04:32:59 <kmc> or maybe i never learned it in the first place
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05:41:41 <shachaf> elliott: jfischoff in #haskell wants to talk about mapping on HLists and things.
05:42:58 <elliott> i dont know much about oleg's definition of hlists
05:43:09 <shachaf> '[*] HLists.
05:44:25 <shachaf> elliott++
05:44:58 <elliott> i did my duty
05:47:09 <shachaf> elliott: He spelled your name with one t.
05:47:17 <shachaf> You should give him a new version of the code with a backdoor in it.
05:47:36 <elliott> the backdoor is already in there
05:47:38 <elliott> it's an unsafeCoerce
05:49:03 <shachaf> elliott: But it's commented out in the most recent version. :-(
05:50:04 <elliott> thats not my paste
05:50:07 <elliott> thats another persons paste
05:50:29 <copumpkin> people seriously need to start standardizing the elliott spellings
05:50:34 <copumpkin> way too many variations
05:50:40 <elliott> eliet
05:51:29 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm pretty sure T. S. Eliot already decided on the correct spelling.
05:51:43 <copumpkin> see, Eliot just looks wrong
05:52:00 <monqy> that's a funny way to spell "right" !
05:58:29 <ion> hi shackhaff
05:59:45 <shachaf> ion: The correct spelling is שחף
06:00:35 <copumpkin> omg crypto
06:00:44 * copumpkin invokes metatron
06:01:09 <ion> > (unwords . map concat . sequence) [["E"], ["l", "ll"], ["io"], ["t", "tt", "tte"]]
06:01:10 <lambdabot> "Eliot Eliott Eliotte Elliot Elliott Elliotte"
06:01:44 <ion> shachaf: shchf?
06:01:45 <monqy> elliott: how would you like to be "Eliotte"
06:02:11 <shachaf> monqy: if elliott doesn't want to be Eliotte can i be Eliotte
06:02:19 <monqy> sure why not
06:07:17 <ion> ‘libtcod, a.k.a. “The Doryen Library”, is a free, fast, portable and uncomplicated API for roguelike developpers providing an advanced true color console, input, and lots of other utilities frequently used in roguelikes.’
06:07:23 <ion> Who wants to developpe roguelikes?
06:07:49 <shachaf> "pushing the roguelike enveloppe"
06:09:12 <monqy> dear roguelike how does it feel to have your envolope pushed??
06:10:17 <shachaf> enveloppe
06:10:26 <ion> envoloppe
06:15:39 <ion> My clothes only have single-hole zippers.
06:46:22 <Sgeo> 1:59:54
06:46:24 <Sgeo> 1:00:44
06:47:54 <monqy> hi
06:55:13 <elliott> hi
07:09:46 <ais523> I think libtcod is mostly useful as a terminal substitute for windows
07:09:53 <ais523> the rest of it seems too disjointed, really
07:11:04 <ais523> also, I think it's hilarious what Apple did with their homepage (designing it to be slightly too tall for the screen no matter what size the screen is, it deliberately adjusts for it and makes itself too large to fit, in order to hide the link to the apology to Samsung)
07:11:49 <monqy> gosh
07:21:02 <elliott> ais523: i like how the judge literally said "samsung's tablets are less cool, so they don't infringe"
07:21:16 <elliott> can't imagine samsung were terrible happy about winning on that account
07:21:19 <elliott> *terribly
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08:24:51 <fizzie> ais523: Reportedly it's not too tall "no matter what"; it doesn't actually stretch, just rearranges itself a bit.
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10:55:01 <Vorpal> hm where is elliott when you need him
10:55:19 <shachaf> Hexham
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10:55:58 <Vorpal> well duh
10:56:53 <shachaf> "well duh" - vorpal
10:57:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, I supposed you don't know anything about what god ergonomical keyboards exist?
10:58:20 <Vorpal> that isn't silly ultraflat
10:58:32 <shachaf> I heard Kinesis is good.
10:58:41 <shachaf> I think kmc might know something.
10:58:51 <Vorpal> I was looking at microsoft's keyboard lineup (I really like their mice) but it seems to be all ultra-flat these days
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11:00:33 <Vorpal> shachaf, that maybe looks too ergonomical (Kinesis), seems kind of hard to get used to
11:01:00 <shachaf> I know a few people who use it and like it.
11:01:07 <Vorpal> wouldn't want to buy that without trying it first. And there aren't really any good physical shops around here that would have it.
11:01:23 <Vorpal> that is a bit of an issue
11:03:52 <Vorpal> heh
11:04:02 <Vorpal> Jafet, why not go for a Datahand while you are at it :P
11:04:34 <Vorpal> anyway, I want something that isn't completely different, I'm not only typing on it. Game keymappings still need to make sense for me. As do emacs keymappings.
11:05:17 <Vorpal> also if the layout is going to be different I would need a reasonable Swedish keymapping for it still
11:07:29 <fizzie> I had one of the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic" line keyboards once -- something like the http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/71/2_27314-358x228.jpeg except few (dozen?) product generations back.
11:07:53 <fizzie> Can't say I liked it terribly much, but keyboards are kind of personal things.
11:09:19 <fizzie> (The one in the image is Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 -- I think the one I had didn't have any numbers.)
11:10:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah the modern ones appear to be ultraflat
11:10:13 <Vorpal> well okay not that one
11:10:19 <Vorpal> I was looking at the curve one
11:10:29 <Vorpal> which is a bit between that and normal keyboards
11:10:35 <Vorpal> I liked the older curve ones
11:11:07 <fizzie> The Comfort Curve 3000 seems kinda flat, yes.
11:11:12 <Vorpal> sadly so
11:12:03 <Vorpal> I used a 2000 at one point, it was kind of slightly flatter than classical keyboards, but not as flat as the 3000 appears
11:12:14 <fizzie> (Some) gamer keyboards look kind of different.
11:12:16 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/97/2_137749-1000x1000.jpeg
11:12:21 <fizzie> That's a lot of buttons.
11:12:24 <Vorpal> lol what
11:12:55 <Vorpal> don't really need that. All I really need is a comfortable standard keyboard + volume buttons. Anything else I don't really care about
11:13:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the thing in the middle of MS natural?
11:13:20 <Vorpal> scroll wheel?
11:17:47 <Vorpal> uh uh, it has a "nordic" layout too?
11:17:50 <Vorpal> what does that even mean
11:19:51 <Vorpal> okay, from that photo it even appears to be an US layout, guess they used stock photo
11:20:04 <Vorpal> would have to call them to make sure it is actually correct before I buy it
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11:20:23 <FreeFull> Tiny enter D:<
11:20:29 <Vorpal> that yeah
11:20:31 <Vorpal> hate that
11:20:43 <Vorpal> not going to buy a keyboard without a large enter key
11:21:00 <FreeFull> Instead I have a tiny leftshift :D
11:21:16 <Vorpal> eh?
11:21:56 <FreeFull> To make space for \| between left shift and z
11:22:05 <ion> Can one access I²C devices asynchronously using the Linux API?
11:22:31 <Vorpal> ah right
11:22:41 <FreeFull> No idea
11:23:04 <Vorpal> ion, async in what way?
11:23:07 <Vorpal> non-blocking IO?
11:23:33 <ion> vorpal: Tell it to start doing something, block in poll()/select(), then read the result.
11:23:38 <Vorpal> if so couldn't you just create a thread to handle the request for you and have that notify you async
11:23:55 <Vorpal> but yeah I have no idea if it supports it
11:23:58 <Vorpal> what do the docs say?
11:24:02 <Vorpal> and what happen if you try it
11:24:10 <ion> Yeah, using threads is an alternative.
11:25:06 <ion> It supports read() for a subset of the functionality: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/i2c/dev-interface
11:25:40 <ion> Namely, the equivalent of i2c_smbus_read_byte.
11:26:24 <ion> But i’d like to be able to use the full API asynchronously.
11:28:01 <Vorpal> ion, what sort of device are you interfacing with?
11:28:24 <fizzie> It's a scroll wheel, yes.
11:28:28 <fizzie> It's for zooming.
11:28:49 <ion> An accelerometer, a magnetometer, a gyroscope, a barometer and a temperature sensor.
11:28:59 <Vorpal> ion, hm... laptop?
11:29:05 <fizzie> (The version I had had no wheels.)
11:29:09 <Vorpal> or a smartphone?
11:29:12 <ion> Oh, and another pressure sensor with a pitot tube.
11:29:17 <ion> An RC airplane.
11:29:19 <Vorpal> ah
11:29:48 <Vorpal> ion, yeah I could guess when you mentioned pitot tube :P
11:31:01 <Vorpal> upgrading ubuntu 10.04 to 12.04.1 on a laptop here, there is always something that goes wrong isn't it. This time lsb_release stopped working partway through the upgrade and the upgrade process is spewing warnings as a result, still seem to work
11:31:09 <Vorpal> also wth
11:31:28 <Vorpal> mojabake error dialog showed up. With two mojabake buttons
11:31:33 <Vorpal> I have no idea what that is for
11:45:40 <Jafet> The change in version number represents how many things have been replaced for no reason
11:45:49 <Vorpal> hah
11:45:58 <Vorpal> true
11:46:29 <Vorpal> Jafet, which is why I'm doing this upgrade on an old, otherwise unused, laptop first.
11:46:50 <Vorpal> to see how much time I will need to set aside to clean up the mess when I do it on this modern laptop
11:47:08 <Vorpal> well, reasonably modern laptop anyway
11:47:43 <Jafet> Upgrading ubuntu: echo deb ftp.debian.org/debian sid main > /etc/apt/sources.list
11:47:55 <Vorpal> nice one
11:48:40 <Jafet> (You will need to use the Terminal for that. Open the Terminal from the Start Menu. I mean the App Launcher.)
11:50:20 <Vorpal> Jafet, I'm going to convert it into xubuntu after the upgrade anyway
11:52:48 <fizzie> XXXbuntu.
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11:55:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, :P
11:55:22 <Jafet> fizzie: a new animal every time!
11:56:35 <fizzie> There's the Ubuntu Satanic Edition.
11:58:17 <FreeFull> Arch
11:58:28 <fizzie> Ubuntu Arch?
11:58:34 <FreeFull> No
11:58:39 <FreeFull> Just Arch
11:59:07 <Vorpal> Arch Linux is okay
11:59:43 <fizzie> The Suse Ubuntu Archmint Genfedoratoo Linux.
12:00:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, with the SlackDebGoboWare package manager?
12:01:35 <fizzie> It installs package.rpm.deb.tar.gz.xz.bz2 files.
12:02:51 <Jafet> > "apt portage" \\ " ott"
12:02:53 <lambdabot> "apprage"
12:03:23 <fizzie> "apprage" sounds like the best package manager ever.
12:03:38 <fizzie> Best, and furious.
12:04:00 <fizzie> "Like the "Deb" part of the term Debian, it originates from the name of Debra, then girlfriend and now ex-wife of Debian's founder Ian Murdock." <- Heh, I did not know that.
12:04:19 <Vorpal> lol
12:04:45 <fizzie> Must be a nice reminder these days.
12:04:56 <Jafet> Think about that the next time you unpack a deb file.
12:06:15 <FreeFull> `anagram aptgetpacmanportage`
12:06:29 <FreeFull> A Carnage Gap Tempt Top
12:06:32 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: anagram: not found
12:06:44 <FreeFull> Lol
12:08:00 <FreeFull> ACGTT package manager
12:08:44 <Jafet> The next step in linux evolution
12:11:03 <FreeFull> `alias echo='echo $( echo )'; echo Test
12:11:07 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: alias: not found
12:11:25 <FreeFull> `yes
12:11:28 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
12:12:08 <quintopia> FreeFull: abbreviated, it looks like a gene
12:12:38 <FreeFull> quintopia: Three letters for one aminoacid though
12:12:54 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
12:13:36 <quintopia> it's the start of a gene?
12:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover> it's 5/3 of a dipeptide
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12:34:47 <FreeFull> > [1..]
12:34:48 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
12:34:54 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
12:35:09 <FreeFull> > concat $ map show [1..]
12:35:11 <lambdabot> "12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940414...
12:35:35 <FreeFull> > "0.0" ++ concat $ map show [1..]
12:35:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
12:35:37 <lambdabot> with actual ty...
12:35:44 <FreeFull> > "0.0" ++ (concat $ map show [1..])
12:35:46 <lambdabot> "0.012345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940...
12:36:14 <FreeFull> Look ma, an irrational number!
12:36:45 <Jafet> > [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
12:36:48 <lambdabot> "27182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303...
12:36:56 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: 5/6?
12:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> shut up quintopia
12:39:25 <quintopia> ?
12:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> you heard me
12:40:15 <quintopia> i dont take orders, but feel free to explain your sudden hostility
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12:52:05 <FreeFull> quintopia: 5/3
12:52:14 <FreeFull> Wait
12:52:17 <FreeFull> He said dipeptide
12:52:19 <FreeFull> 5/6 then
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15:56:17 <Vorpal> hm
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16:30:06 <Vorpal> unity of gnome 3, which is the most screwed up GUI of the two? Hard to decide
16:30:25 <fizzie> "Unity of Gnome 3" sounds fancy.
16:30:33 <fizzie> Also like a royal title.
16:31:00 <fizzie> All kneel for His Highness Unity of Gnome 3.
16:31:12 <Vorpal> or*
16:31:18 <Vorpal> but hah
16:32:14 <Vorpal> unity runs like shit on the laptop I'm upgrading to 12.04 anyway
16:32:24 <Vorpal> Pentium M with 512 MB RAM so not surprised
16:33:02 <fizzie> In 12.10 with LLVMPipe I'm sure it'd be BLAZING FAST.
16:33:03 <nortti> Vorpal: use lubuntu
16:33:25 <kmc> is lubuntu ubuntu for losers?
16:33:30 <FreeFull> I'm considering switching to dwm
16:33:59 <fizzie> Why are three leds of the switch blinking if I'm downloading a file? Two I'd get.
16:34:44 <nortti> kmc: it is ubuntu with lxde
16:35:17 <fizzie> Is there an Enlightenment-Ubuntu too? Enbuntu?
16:35:44 <FreeFull> lxde isn't a real de
16:35:45 <kmc> fizzie: you forgot about the NSA intercept port
16:35:54 <FreeFull> It's just a bunch of different things put together
16:37:09 <FreeFull> Ok, half of it was written for it
16:37:24 <fizzie> I remember running Enlightenment... E14? Something like that. It was very impressive-looking.
16:37:31 <fizzie> Compared to fvwm95 anyway.
16:37:33 <olsner> I "like" how unity by default comes with 7 out of 10 icons being open office and the rest being pretty much indistinguishable other useless stuff
16:37:40 <olsner> except the magic button for accessing everything else
16:37:44 <Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: use lubuntu <-- uh... LXDE?
16:37:51 <fizzie> http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif SO HOT
16:37:56 <Vorpal> haven't tried that for years, but eh, didn't like it back then
16:37:57 <olsner> (i.e. useful, but still indistinguishable)
16:38:27 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway the only reason I upgrade that laptop is so I can figure out all the issues before I upgrade my modern laptop
16:38:52 <Vorpal> nortti, other than that it is just used when I need a serial port
16:39:31 <nortti> ah ok
16:39:49 <nortti> use gentoo
16:39:52 <fizzie> Incidentally, couldn't manage to convince pulseaudio (via pavucontrol) to make the laptop to mute the internal speakers while at the same time keeping the optical s/pdif jack unmuted.
16:40:35 <fizzie> Fortunately the volume control doesn't (naturally) affect the s/pdif stream, so I could just turn the volume REAL LOW (but not quite to 0, that muted both) so that the internal speakers were inaudible.
16:40:42 <fizzie> Such an elegant solution.
16:41:41 <nortti> pulseaudio - makes even alsa look good
16:41:43 <ion> http://youtu.be/5Ro9yu6Jces?t=2m33s
16:42:13 <kmc> fuck pulseaudio
16:42:52 <ion> A lot of its functionality belongs in the kernel, but despite that my experiences with it have been positive.
16:43:24 <nortti> I use oss
16:43:27 <olsner> ah, http://toastytech.com/guis/ubuntu114dash.png
16:43:36 <kmc> of course you do nortti
16:44:08 <nortti> I have never had any problems with it
16:44:53 <olsner> only 3 OOo icons, but 5 mysterious ones, plus the "home" thing that you somehow have to figure out is the way to access anything else
16:44:54 <ion> You can *gasp* add and remove favorite programs to/from the sidebar.
16:45:53 <fizzie> My experiences with PA have been really bland. It's worked well enough, and I like the way I can easily route different streams to different outputs without trying to figure out each program's well-hidden audio device configuration method, but sometimes there's things like the aforementioned.
16:46:00 <olsner> I guess the gods have deliberated and decided that the only things ubuntu systems are really used for is spreadsheets, presentations, and whatever the big "U" thing is
16:46:17 <fizzie> olsner: It's Ubuntu One, I'm pretty sure.
16:46:25 <olsner> yes, whatever that is :)
16:46:26 <fizzie> olsner: See, it has a little "1" inside the U.
16:46:28 <ion> olsner: What would be the better set of defaults?
16:46:58 <olsner> ion: dunno, I think the big problem is that everything else is hidden
16:48:03 <ion> The home thing is an equally big button on the top of the sidebar nowadays. That’s an old screenshot.
16:48:37 <ion> Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png
16:49:05 <fizzie> Is it, these days? I thought they got rid of that in 8.
16:49:19 <ion> Is “everything” hidden in OSX because it’s available from one of the buttons in the bottom panel? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/empty/macosx102.png
16:49:48 <Vorpal> <ion> Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png <-- what happened there?
16:49:51 <Vorpal> it looks strange
16:50:07 <ion> http://windows7themes.net/wp-content/gallery/windows-8-screenshots/Windows_8_screenshot.png
16:50:33 <Vorpal> ion, that isn't metro though
16:50:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's no such thing as Metro nowdays either.
16:51:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, whatever they changed the name to then
16:51:16 <fizzie> "Modern UI".
16:51:25 <Vorpal> lol what
16:51:26 <fizzie> Or possibly "Windows 8".
16:51:31 <Vorpal> uh
16:51:57 <nortti> wasn't it "Windows 8 style user experience" ?
16:52:03 <fizzie> Or "Microsoft design language" in place of "Metro design language".
16:52:04 <olsner> I think a row of icons without text or a search box are both really bad ways to find stuff
16:52:10 <olsner> ... what both the start menu and mac's application thingy have (last time I checked) is that they give you a big list/grid of everything you can do
16:52:44 <fizzie> AIUI, it's "Start screen" now, and it's full of "tiles".
16:53:23 <fizzie> Some of the tiles are also "live".
16:53:29 <fizzie> (They're "made of people"?)
16:53:39 <ion> You get the big list and the search box by clicking on the big Ubuntu logo on the top. There are tooltips for everything in the vertical panel.
16:54:00 <olsner> tooltips are useless
16:54:25 <fizzie> There's also a Charms bar in 8.
16:54:34 <fizzie> "Start. Get to your Start screen. Or if you're already on Start, you can use this charm to go back to the last app you were in."
16:54:42 <fizzie> Very charming.
16:54:55 <ion> I don’t see text in the OSX dock or the Windows quick launcher either.
16:55:39 <ion> Nor do they contain a search bar.
16:56:48 -!- elliott has joined.
16:56:51 <Vorpal> elliott, hi!
16:56:59 <elliott> hi
16:56:59 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:57:40 <Vorpal> elliott, keyboard recommendations? I need a new one. Something ergonomic and not ultra flat. Nothing crazy like the data hand though :P
16:58:06 <elliott> Vorpal: depends what you mean by ergonomic & your budget
16:58:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: POWER GLOVE.
16:58:43 <nortti> Vorpal: model m?
16:58:50 <elliott> Vorpal: however take a look at http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm
16:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, budget, up to approx 150 USD or so. Not a sharp line
16:59:01 <elliott> Vorpal: they use cherry brown switches
16:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, and ergonomic: my hands must stop hurting, they are hurting from the temp keyboard I'm using atm
16:59:24 <elliott> well at least the advantage ones do
16:59:36 <elliott> i hear good only things about them but haven't used them mind you
16:59:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so something that means your wrists can be straight lines. I really liked the old MS Comfort Curve keyboards, but the modern one appears to be ultra flat
16:59:59 <kmc> kinesis advantage is great
17:00:01 <olsner> ion: true, the quick launchers don't have text on any os ... but the menu/thing you get to display all applications is usually useful in !unity :)
17:00:12 <olsner> whereas unity apparently requires me to Search for whatever I want (and I won't know exactly what it's called until after I find it)
17:00:13 <Vorpal> kmc, issue: game keybindings appear to be weird on that
17:00:19 <Vorpal> kmc, also how long does it take to get used ot
17:00:21 <Vorpal> to*
17:00:23 <kmc> not very long
17:00:25 <Vorpal> hm
17:00:32 <elliott> Vorpal: that's the one i linked btw
17:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it is loading
17:00:51 <kmc> if your hands hurt and you use qwerty i also suggest switching to a better layout
17:00:52 <elliott> they sell an "advanced" "reprogrammable" version but i suspect it does nothing you cannot do more easily in software
17:00:54 <kmc> that will take longer
17:01:09 <elliott> nortti: btw model m is pretty much ergonomically terrible
17:01:21 <Vorpal> kmc, possible, but my hands never hurt with qwerty except on straight traditional keyboards.
17:01:53 <kmc> well i'd say it all matters
17:01:59 <kmc> maybe you only need one or the other change
17:02:02 <kmc> but both could be better long-term
17:02:21 <Vorpal> kmc, since I'm really wide at the shoulders, the small keyboard area of a traditional PC keyboard basically means I need to angle my wrists quite a bit
17:02:29 <Vorpal> which is why a curved keyboard is better
17:02:29 <kmc> i had this experience of changing one thing, and then my hands would eventually start to hurt again, and repeat
17:02:32 <kmc> yeah
17:02:44 <ion> olsner: The per-category installed applications browser isn’t *that* bad, but i admit it could be better.
17:02:46 <kmc> also look out for awkwardly placed keys that you use often
17:02:51 <kmc> that's one great thing about the kinesis
17:02:56 <Vorpal> kmc, oh?
17:03:01 <elliott> if kinesis sold an advantage keyboard with topre switches i'd buy it
17:03:05 <elliott> it'd cost like $9999999 though
17:03:12 <olsner> ion: maybe it is, but I haven't seen it... how do you find it?
17:03:21 <kmc> Vorpal: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg note the two thumb clusters
17:03:29 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway the advantage is $299 rather than $150 though maybe you can get a deal on it somewhere or buy a second-hand one
17:03:34 <Vorpal> kmc, hm yeah
17:03:35 <kmc> those have ctrl, alt, backspace, delete, home, end, enter, space, etc
17:03:50 <elliott> Vorpal: i seriously doubt you will find a keyboard that (a) has good switches and (b) a non-traditional layout for cheap though
17:03:56 <kmc> though e.g. i had to bind a second escape key
17:03:59 <kmc> cause i use vim
17:04:10 <kmc> i recently learned about https://github.com/alols/xcape which lets you use capslock as ctrl and capslock as esc at the same time
17:04:20 <kmc> maybe i'll switch over to that
17:04:21 <Vorpal> kmc, two questions: have you used it with 1) emacs 2) various modern games?
17:04:22 <elliott> btw if anyone ever has lots of money
17:04:26 <elliott> please buy me a datahand
17:04:34 <kmc> not much of either
17:04:45 <elliott> kinesis seems pretty good for emacs
17:04:56 <elliott> ctrl and alt are on opposite sides
17:05:00 <ion> olsner: Click on the applications tab in the dash or hit Windows-A and select “Filter results” if it’s not open already.
17:05:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I can go higher than $150 sure
17:05:02 <kmc> another example, on my laptop keyboard there's this awkward 3-key combination i hit all the time
17:05:10 <kmc> and i'm trying to train myself to use the opposite hand for one of the keys (shift)
17:05:15 <elliott> so you can ctrl-alt-shift
17:05:21 <kmc> you just have to pay attention to that stuff
17:05:21 <Vorpal> elliott, one issue is that how will I know without trying it
17:05:27 <kmc> learn hjkl for vim instead of using arrow keys
17:05:27 <kmc> etc.
17:05:30 <Vorpal> not a lot of keyboard shops around here
17:05:34 <elliott> Vorpal: well you won't
17:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, could be costly thus
17:05:51 <ion> FWIW, this is what i see when i hit the Windows™ key or click on the top button in the launcher. It displays the recent applications and files and focuses in the search bar. http://i.imgur.com/VX74S.jpg
17:05:56 <elliott> Vorpal: you could sell it on ebay or something
17:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, if I knew I would like it I wouldn't hesitate to spend $700, but...
17:06:02 <FreeFull> Arrow keys work while in insert mode though
17:06:04 <kmc> what's $700?
17:06:08 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah
17:06:11 <kmc> so i still use them sometimes
17:06:13 <Vorpal> kmc, money?
17:06:15 <elliott> datahand is over $700 i think
17:06:18 <elliott> but Vorpal was just using a hyperbolic figure
17:06:21 <kmc> oh, i thought you meant the kinesis advantage
17:06:24 <kmc> which is like $250
17:06:26 <elliott> kmc: do you know about the datahand
17:06:26 <kmc> which is still crazy
17:06:28 <kmc> no
17:06:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I would like datahand though
17:06:38 <kmc> oh yeah this thing
17:06:41 <elliott> kmc: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8559/dhhandinunitof2.jpg
17:06:44 <olsner> ion: oh, but that's the search thingy, is that the same as the applications tab?
17:06:48 <elliott> you flick really light magnetic switches to type
17:06:56 <elliott> it even does mouse input
17:07:25 <ion> olsner: It’s the button next to the activated home button in the bottom of the windowish thingy. Windows™-A opens it directly.
17:07:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it is very good for playing an FPS with though. Which I sometimes do.
17:07:47 <ion> olsner: Hold down the Windows™ key to see the list of keyboard shortcuts.
17:08:00 <Vorpal> elliott, what about MS natural keyboards?
17:08:09 <Vorpal> I don't know anything about the modern ones
17:08:10 <kmc> Vorpal: how you sit and where your keyboard is are also super important
17:08:20 <kmc> but i don't know much about that
17:08:21 <elliott> Vorpal: here are videos of crazy people using a kinesis advantage https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kinesis+advantage
17:09:22 <ion> I want DataHand <http://youtu.be/_rzFqEqzhmA>, but it’s insanely expensive.
17:09:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure it can be good if you get used to it, but it is a expensive investment and I'm not purely a typist, so it still need to work for other stuff, such as playing games.
17:09:52 <olsner> ion: hmm, so unity could've avoided most of my rage just by making a different tab of the search thingy open by default?
17:09:56 <Vorpal> elliott, so hrrm
17:10:09 <kmc> i work at a 7 person company and we have 2 people with the kinesis advantage keyboard
17:10:18 <kmc> and the other guy (not me) has the foot pedals as well
17:10:27 <ion> olsner: Perhaps. I’ve been happy with the default.
17:10:29 <Vorpal> kmc, what do the foot pedals do?
17:10:38 <kmc> you can map them to any keypress or macro
17:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: well kinesis advantage is just a regular keyboard with a gap... I guess it is bad if you have a game whose shortcuts spill over to the right hand side but you could just rebind those?
17:10:53 <Vorpal> kmc, hey I already have some Saitek rudder pedals
17:10:56 <Vorpal> :P
17:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't seen any ergonomic-as-in-curved-a-bit keyboards with good switches
17:11:08 <kmc> maybe i should build a crazy foot keyboard to one-up him
17:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't rebind everything usually. Look at minecraft for example, can't rebind 1-0 for quick slots
17:11:41 <elliott> Vorpal: kinesis sell other keyboards: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/max-spec.htm http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle2.htm but idk what switches they use
17:11:55 <elliott> well you can rebind things at the OS level if nothing else
17:12:16 <elliott> or buy the reprogrammable ~kinesis advantage pro~ for only $359! but wait, there's more!!
17:12:22 <Vorpal> "The award winning Kinesis Maxim adjustable ergonomic computer keyboard is the only ergonomic keyboard licensed to use the Microsoft "combo" USB/PS2 technology" <-- lol what
17:13:05 <kmc> shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now
17:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hrrm, no numpads? oh well
17:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: numpads are awful anyway :p
17:13:23 <kmc> i have the advantage pro but it wasn't $359
17:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, except for nethack ;)
17:13:39 <elliott> Vorpal: hjklyubn
17:13:43 <Vorpal> :P
17:13:45 <kmc> my #1 complaint with the kinesis is no nipple pointer
17:13:58 <Vorpal> kmc, a track point would have been nice yes
17:14:32 <nortti> 19:13 < kmc> shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now // I am building one
17:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway since I would need to learn to touch type again with something like the advantage... can you get them with Swedish layouts?
17:15:11 <kmc> yeah i started building one too
17:15:25 <kmc> ideally i would mold clay or something to match the resting shape of my hands
17:15:43 <Vorpal> kmc, so a home built datahand?
17:15:45 <kmc> no
17:15:53 <Vorpal> then what?
17:16:00 <FreeFull> Keyboard layouts are fully OS-dependent, as long as the keys have all the right shape
17:16:14 <kmc> for starters the resting shape would be gripping a vertical rod, not flat horizontally
17:16:28 <kmc> but it would be a chording keyboard, not a datahand type
17:16:40 <kmc> just a single switch for each finger
17:16:49 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt you can get them with other layouts but you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard if you are learning to touch type anyway :P
17:17:09 <Vorpal> elliott, useful to learn where the key is at all I guess
17:17:10 <FreeFull> I want one of those keyboards with blank keycaps
17:17:24 <elliott> Vorpal: i really doubt the adjustment period is that bad, though... if not for the space between the two sides it would just be a regular keyboard with a slope
17:17:37 <elliott> FreeFull: don't buy a das keyboard
17:17:53 <kmc> but it makes you a real ninja rockstar
17:18:02 <nortti> kmc: you won't have enought combos for alphabet+numbers
17:18:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the stuff under the thumbs is different but eh
17:18:21 <kmc> > 2**10
17:18:22 <lambdabot> 1024.0
17:18:24 <elliott> you can buy label-less replacement keycaps from places
17:18:38 <Vorpal> kmc, where is alt on the advantage?
17:18:39 <nortti> kmc: ah. you are making 2 hand one?
17:18:43 <FreeFull> Switching keycaps around would be a pain
17:18:43 <kmc> nortti: it would be, yeah
17:18:51 <elliott> Vorpal: clear solution is to switch to colemak simultaneously
17:18:58 <Vorpal> hah
17:19:02 <kmc> well maybe one hand, plus another hand that is basically a mouse or trackball but has a few other keyboard modifiers
17:19:04 <elliott> FreeFull: less of a pain than typing on a keyboard as low-quality as das keyboard
17:19:13 <FreeFull> My only requirement is that the keyboard is the standard big-enter layout
17:19:17 <FreeFull> No small enter please
17:19:17 <elliott> well it's better-quality than your average rubber dome probably but it's really bad
17:19:24 <Vorpal> FreeFull, yeah!
17:19:30 <kmc> Vorpal: it's on the thumb cluster
17:19:31 <kmc> one of them
17:19:37 <kmc> mine are all remapped
17:19:47 <Vorpal> I see
17:19:50 <kmc> actually i think alt isn't but i don't use it very much
17:19:51 <elliott> i think i would be unable to use an advantage because my hands are too small and i wouldn't be able to use the thumb bits
17:19:52 <FreeFull> I used to have a model m but it broke
17:20:01 <FreeFull> It was a DIM one anyway
17:20:10 <kmc> my housemate has a pckeyboard model m successor
17:20:13 <kmc> it's really really loud
17:20:20 <nortti> kmc: I am building 1 handed one with state 2 state switch keys that thumb can access
17:20:24 <kmc> he is one floor above me right now and it sounds like machine gun fire
17:20:31 <elliott> i think model m is overrated
17:20:33 <kmc> yeah
17:20:36 <elliott> the switches are way too heavy
17:20:36 <kmc> i had one for a while
17:20:46 <kmc> first an original m and then a pckeyboard one
17:20:51 <nortti> model m is nice but not as nice as some say
17:21:04 <kmc> they feel satisfying to use but they aren't really ergonomic in any sense
17:21:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so if I would go for something that wasn't such a huge investment, what about a MS natural keyboard, they are certainly cheaper. And the older models at least were quite comfortable
17:21:38 <Vorpal> what sort of key caps do they have
17:21:39 <FreeFull> DIN*
17:21:44 <FreeFull> Not DIM =P
17:21:58 <kmc> DIM a From 1 To 10
17:22:23 <kmc> anyway yeah i think having a good chair and desk is at least as important as having a good keyboard
17:22:42 <kmc> but i fail at these things
17:22:43 <elliott> Vorpal: aren't those rubber dome
17:22:51 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what I'm wondering
17:22:55 <elliott> i can't really in good conscience recommend a rubber dome keyboard even though i'm typing on one right now
17:23:07 <Vorpal> I still think microsoft make the best mice, well traditional mice at least. Never liked trackballs and such
17:23:27 <kmc> i'm typing on a thinkpad keyboard right now, which is a scissor mechanism above a rubber dome
17:23:34 <kmc> they're pretty good as far as laptop keyboards go
17:23:38 <Vorpal> well yeah
17:23:39 <FreeFull> Vorpal: microsoft mice are just rebranded logitech mice
17:24:00 <kmc> i hear the new one (island layout) is also very good, but i am fearful that they've screwed it all up massively
17:24:04 <Vorpal> FreeFull, hm, pretty sure they use a different outer shell too?
17:24:14 <kmc> however it's true that the internal mechanism of the "classic" keyboard did change all the time
17:24:19 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php this uses cherry switches apparentlt
17:24:20 <elliott> *apparently
17:24:22 <elliott> that layout is wack tho
17:24:30 <kmc> btw fuck colemak
17:24:37 <elliott> oh and it's $229
17:24:40 <elliott> what's wrong with colemak
17:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, lol, that looks crazy
17:24:45 <kmc> what's the point of being 50% qwerty
17:24:49 <kmc> you still need to relearn how to type
17:24:51 <elliott> kmc: thats not the design goal of colemak
17:24:52 <elliott> common misconception
17:24:55 <kmc> and dvoark is more standard, it's in every OS
17:24:58 <kmc> oh, what is it then
17:25:01 <Vorpal> FreeFull, the logitech mice I used haven't been nearly as good as my "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000"
17:25:14 <Vorpal> FreeFull, which Logitech mouse is that based on then
17:25:17 <kmc> elliott: looking at that trulyergonomic keyboard makes me feel like i'm drunk
17:25:33 <nortti> does anyone know how to use one handed dvorak on linux?
17:25:47 <elliott> kmc: well "easy to learn for qwerty typers" is one of the goals I think but I hear it actually fares better than Dvorak
17:25:49 <elliott> e.g. "According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models."
17:26:02 <kmc> interesting
17:26:09 <elliott> kmc: also one of the reasons for the qwerty closeness is to make common computer shortcuts less awful to type compared to dvorak it seems
17:26:20 <elliott> (note that that quote is from the colemak site so it's obviously biased but i don't see any reason the study itself (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/) would be biased)
17:26:49 <elliott> http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layout.3F
17:27:00 <elliott> if i switched from qwerty it would probably be to colemak
17:27:04 <elliott> i doubt i can be bothered any time soon though
17:27:09 <kmc> is this carpalx thing based on actual science (e.g. human physiology)
17:27:42 <kmc> or is it one of those "i'm a programmer therefore i must be an expert in all fields" things
17:27:49 <Deewiant> kmc: RTFA http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_evaluation
17:28:01 <kmc> i was looking for that
17:28:19 <kmc> so where are the citations
17:28:24 <elliott> http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?worst_layout
17:28:27 <elliott> i should switch to TNWMLC
17:28:40 <FreeFull> I'm staying with qwerty
17:28:57 <FreeFull> The only word that's awkward for me to type on a qwerty keyboard is qwerty itself
17:28:59 <kmc> elliott: so that FAQ does say "The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY."
17:29:33 <kmc> 'Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky.' what? i hit that key with the ring finger
17:29:33 <elliott> right but then it says other things
17:29:37 <kmc> using the pinky would be absurd
17:29:42 <kmc> maybe for people with much smaller hands
17:30:23 <elliott> advantages of colemak: you can type "arse" on the home row
17:30:42 <kmc> "'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards." so? f is an uncommon key
17:30:47 <kmc> something will be hard to hit
17:30:57 <kmc> elliott: i can type shithead
17:31:35 <kmc> anyway i don't doubt that colemak has some advantages (and dvorak some) but i've never seen anything to outweigh the fact that dvorak is already installed on most computers in the world and i can sit down and switch to it with 15 seconds of effort
17:32:25 <FreeFull> elliott: But on a qwerty you can type arse with your left hand
17:32:31 <nortti> why is it so hard to find info how to use one-handed dvorak on linux?
17:33:09 <FreeFull> nortti: Because not many people do that maybe
17:33:11 <pikhq> It's not like using my pinky for typing is excessive stress.
17:34:13 <kmc> so yeah this carpalx thing has a big complicated model, with zero citations to any existing literature or any empirical studies of the suitability of that model
17:34:17 <kmc> why are programmers so bad at science
17:34:48 <pikhq> Programmers have this idea that if you can measure it, you should optimize it.
17:34:57 <kmc> but they can't measure it!
17:35:00 <pikhq> And damn the notion that you need to optimize things you actually want to be optimal.
17:35:06 <pikhq> This is a metric.
17:35:07 <FreeFull> kmc: How big is your sample of programmers?
17:35:09 <kmc> i mean, they are measuring some completely pulled-out-of-ass thing
17:35:11 <kmc> FreeFull: c.c
17:35:19 <pikhq> Whether or not the metric is relevant is not necessary. :)
17:35:32 <pikhq> We have a metric, now to optimize for it.
17:35:45 <Deewiant> Nobody wants the optimal solution, the most optimized solution is where it's at.
17:35:52 <kmc> yeah
17:35:53 <Deewiant> I.e. the one which took longest to optimize.
17:36:08 <kmc> bonus points if you use something fancy like genetic algorithm even where a simple gradient descent would suffice
17:36:17 <elliott> apparently this guy invented port knocking
17:36:21 <kmc> shrug
17:36:32 <kmc> it's a fine idea that i'm sure many people have thought of
17:38:35 <kmc> when i was young i coded a GA in Perl to figure out how to most efficiently burn all my pirated music and tv shows onto CD-Rs
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17:40:58 <olsner> hmm, this datahand thing - is it actually a good idea to minimize hand/finger movement?
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17:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, why were you burning them to cd-rs
17:42:52 <Phantom_Hoover> was this in, like, the early 70s
17:44:16 <Deewiant> CD-Rs didn't appear until the late 80s, and burners cost thousands of dollars until the mid-90s
17:47:06 <FreeFull> Right now people just buy a bunch of 3TB HDDs and put everything on them
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18:21:30 <AnotherTest> Hello
18:21:30 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:25:20 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah i just bought 6 of those
18:26:50 <kmc> it does seem extravagent but having random access to everything without thinking is pretty useful
18:27:53 <kmc> yeah i used CD-Rs because i was a kid and didn't have money for extravagences like DVD burning
18:27:58 <kmc> but i did get a DVD burner eventually
18:28:25 <kmc> also i had an MP3-CD player
18:29:33 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I only have two eSATA ports though
18:29:45 <Vorpal> and hm two USB3
18:30:19 <kmc> you can get external enclosures that use multiple drives and plug into a single eSATA port
18:30:33 <kmc> MP3-CD players were the best
18:30:51 <kmc> at a time when a nice flash-based MP3 player had 64MB of storage
18:30:53 <pikhq> Funnily enough, I have never owned a DVD burner.
18:31:07 <pikhq> I own a late 90s CD burner still. I use it maybe once a year, if not less.
18:31:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have one in my current computer
18:31:17 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Hotswappable HDD bay
18:31:18 <fizzie> We used to go over to Tallinn to buy DVD-R's; a lot cheaper there, partially due to them not having this extra tax-like "renumeration for private copying" price they add to all empty media, and I think hard drives and such too these days.
18:31:18 <kmc> you could fit 10x that on a CD-R that cost 50¢
18:31:21 <Vorpal> and a DVD-RAM device in my laptop
18:31:26 <pikhq> It still *works* is the amazing bit.
18:31:28 <Vorpal> FreeFull, hm that would work
18:31:34 <pikhq> Does a whole 12x.
18:31:37 <pikhq> (4x on CD-RW)
18:31:46 <kmc> fizzie: did they sell them duty-free on the ferry
18:31:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, but what about DVD reader?
18:32:00 <Vorpal> you have that?
18:32:10 <pikhq> Yes, I have a DVD-ROM drive.
18:32:28 <Vorpal> DVD-RAM?
18:32:31 <pikhq> Nope.
18:32:47 <pikhq> And I mostly use the DVD drive for CD ripping. (what, so I like FLAC)
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18:33:00 <fizzie> kmc: Sadly, not that I know; you had to go to a shop on land. (We went to some really obscure "abandoned warehouse"-style-atmosphere place someone had heard of.)
18:33:35 <kmc> nice
18:34:01 <kmc> we had this really sketchy traveling computer show in Iowa that would set up shop for a week in the livestock showing barn at the faregrounds
18:34:08 <fizzie> I have about 80% unused of the last stack of 50 "PRINCO" brand DVD-R's I got there.
18:35:26 <kmc> also Iowa LAN parties were great
18:35:45 <kmc> because people would come from all over the state, from rural places that had really crappy dial-up or satellite Internet
18:35:49 <kmc> so they would come to play games
18:36:01 <kmc> but they would *also* come to run KaZaA in the background at full speed
18:36:17 <kmc> downloading as much warez and porn as possible over 24 hours
18:36:28 <kmc> and share it locally as well
18:37:20 <fizzie> Downloading lots of stuff was quite a large part of the Assembly experience too, back before broadband days. Nowadays it's just not so exciting. :/
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18:39:13 <FreeFull> I want to go to a demoparty
18:40:23 <fizzie> The ones I've been to don't exactly have much qualifications for participation, except for having enough money for the ticket.
18:40:38 <fizzie> So it doesn't sound like it should be a problem.
18:41:44 <FreeFull> Getting there in the first place would be the problem for me
18:43:30 <fizzie> Where did you live again? Sweden?
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18:54:05 <fizzie> For the record, the "copying-renumeration-tax" for a single DVD is 0.60 EUR; that's kind of much when the actual price is something like 0.20 EUR/disc. (Price calculated from the first 100-disc spindle from newegg; is perhaps representative.)
19:02:07 <kmc> wow, that is outrageous
19:02:13 <kmc> i didn't know they had that in not-US
19:02:20 <kmc> but it makes sense because the US writes copyright law for the rest of the world
19:03:38 <fizzie> We started it in 1984; the US apparently in 1992.
19:03:44 <fizzie> (And Germany in 1960s.)
19:03:48 <kmc> with tape??
19:04:09 <fizzie> Yes, it used to be called "kasettimaksu".
19:04:16 <kmc> haha
19:04:21 <kmc> home taping is killing music!
19:04:27 <fizzie> Applied to C cassettes and VHS tapes, I believe.
19:05:02 <atriq> Help
19:05:09 <atriq> I have a cigar
19:05:21 <fizzie> Currently in Finland it also applies to just regular external USB HDs, no matter what you're going to be storing there; 9 EUR for 50-250 GB; 12 EUR for 250-1000 GB; 18 EUR for > 1 TB.
19:05:24 <kmc> you're gonna go far
19:05:42 <kmc> you're gonna fly high, you're never gonna die you're gonna make it if you try they're gonna *love* you
19:05:45 <fizzie> (But it does not apply if you buy a external USB HD chassis and a regular SATA drive separately.)
19:05:47 <Deewiant> fizzie: Re. the DVDs: fi.wikipedia says the tax is 74% of the price
19:05:55 <atriq> kmc: help
19:06:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think they've changed the numbers; those are from 2007.
19:06:40 <Vorpal> Deewiant, 74%!?
19:06:43 <Vorpal> that is insane
19:06:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: The 0.60 EUR/disc came from http://www.tulli.fi/fi/suomen_tulli/julkaisut_ja_esitteet/kasikirjat/rajoituskasikirja/liitetiedostot/hyvitysmaksu.pdf that's dated December 2011.
19:07:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's correct, the 2007 bit is just for the price of the disc without the tax
19:08:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: The latest is http://www.hyvitysmaksu.fi/teosto/hymysivut.nsf/0/0f085260b8604de9c22573b1003c22ec/$FILE/Asetus2012_FI.pdf and it too says 0.60 EUR per disc.
19:08:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Unlike fi.wikipedia, which claims 0.73.
19:08:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: It says "arvonlisäveroineen", and 0.6 * 1.22 is ~0.73
19:08:41 <pikhq> atriq: I'm with kmc on this.
19:08:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh; right, then.
19:09:04 <elliott> atriq: why do you have a cigar
19:09:07 <Deewiant> fizzie: Although shouldn't it be 1.23 these days? In which case it's off by a cent
19:09:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think it should, yes.
19:09:20 <Deewiant> Unless they're rounding down; whatever
19:09:33 <fizzie> Maybe it's not all that important.
19:09:42 <Deewiant> In any case, the non-tax price of a disc is probably lower so it's probablby more than 74% these days.
19:09:46 <Deewiant> -b
19:10:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: As mentioned, my first hit for a 100-disc spindle from abroad was 0.20 EUR/disc. I'm sure you could find cheaper too.
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19:11:25 <fizzie> (Or 24.99 USD / 100 discs, to be exact; it maps to something pretty close.)
19:11:33 <atriq> elliott, ironic birthday present
19:11:42 <fizzie> atriq: Sometimes it's just a cigar.
19:12:28 <olsner> how is it ironic?
19:12:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: They cite (a broken link to) mbnet's hintaseuranta, which would probably have a bit higher price due to the cost of importing. (I don't know how they found a tax-free price there, though.)
19:12:45 <pikhq> Is atriq a tee-totaller?
19:12:49 <olsner> does the box say it's actually a pipe?
19:12:49 <elliott> fizzie: do they have computers in Finland
19:13:00 <pikhq> olsner: :D
19:13:07 <atriq> pikhq, nah, I just don't like the smell of tobacco
19:13:10 <fizzie> elliott: I've heard there's, like, five.
19:13:15 <atriq> Or alcohol
19:13:18 <pikhq> elliott: No, they have konnpyuuta.
19:13:22 <kmc> 'irony' means "bad ideas done on purpose" these days
19:13:41 <atriq> I'm effectively teetotal, but it's personal preference, not ideological
19:13:52 <atriq> Except I like wine on occassion
19:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a guy in my analysis class who smokes a pipe
19:14:11 <pikhq> atriq: Yeah, there's a rather big difference between "don't like it" and "I am morally opposed". :)
19:14:13 <Phantom_Hoover> he looks quite dashing but i always gag when he walks past
19:14:37 <atriq> Someone I know got ironically given a pipe for his birthday
19:15:15 <olsner> I had a fried who claimed to be a teetotaller because he was only drinking a little
19:15:17 <kmc> sometimes i wonder if i should take up smoking e-cigarettes
19:15:25 <pikhq> olsner: Silly.
19:16:20 <fizzie> There was a couple with some... things, that I think were e-cigarettes; they looked really scifi, and suspicious, and I'm still not quite sure what was up there.
19:16:54 <kmc> yeah "electronic cigarettes" sounds like something a lazy sci-fi writer would invent to sound more future-y
19:16:59 <fizzie> They didn't look like regular cigarettes, which I understand some (many?) attempt to look like.
19:17:04 <elliott> digital water
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19:17:12 <kmc> digital bath
19:17:31 <fizzie> I think they kind of looked like light saber handles from Star Wars. Except they kept smoking them.
19:17:34 <kmc> i like the effects of nicotine on occasion, but i don't want to smoke tobacco
19:17:35 <olsner> cig-e-rettes
19:18:19 <kmc> when i owned a vape i should have tried vaping tobacco in it
19:18:34 <kmc> that's what an e-cig is basically
19:18:46 <kmc> also i wonder if you can make e-joints by analogy
19:18:56 <kmc> temperature needs to be adjusted
19:18:56 <fizzie> A combination lightsaber/e-cigarette: good idea, or best idea? (Just remember which end is which.)
19:19:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how would they work, these e-cigs?
19:19:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think electricity is involved.
19:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, is tobacco still involved?
19:20:01 <fizzie> Not as far as I know.
19:20:10 <Vorpal> hm
19:20:17 <fizzie> But really, you're asking a guy who's still not sure whether the only ones I've seen were e-cigs or lightsabers.
19:20:35 <Vorpal> hah
19:20:36 <Vorpal> true
19:20:41 <fizzie> It just vaporises something, I know that much.
19:20:48 <Vorpal> well both do that yeah
19:21:08 <fizzie> Yes, perhaps the combined model can share some parts.
19:21:17 <olsner> given that lightsabers are lightsaber-handle-sized and e-cigs are cigarette-sized, it should be fairly easy to tell them apart
19:21:37 <kmc> it vaporizes 'a propylene glycol- or glycerin- or polyethylene glycol-based liquid solution '
19:21:53 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe they've made thinner handles these days. Anyway, they weren't made up like fake cigarettes.
19:22:16 <elliott> technically everything fizzie says is made up
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK fizzie but you're going to look like a right tit if you're trying to smoke a lightsabre handle
19:22:44 <Vorpal> kmc, and that gives the same result as nicotine?
19:23:05 <olsner> presumably, the solution contains nicotine
19:23:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it contains nicotine, so... yes.
19:23:11 <Vorpal> ah right
19:23:11 <Sgeo_> Oh, there's a flaw in Clojure that I thought of, but I may have mentioned it before
19:23:30 <kmc> Sgeo_: i don't think you've ever mentioned Clojure here, actually
19:23:48 <fizzie> I like that wikipedia article, it's so encyclopædic: "Newer e cigarettes are using the two piece design now. You now have a battery and a disposable cartomizer. The old three piece method was bad because the cartridge did not hold much "e-juice" and the atomizers were burning up after one or two refills. With the new two piece you get a better "throat hit" and plenty of vapor."
19:24:18 <fizzie> The tone is *exactly* like, say, Encyclopædia Britannica.
19:24:41 <kmc> http://www.thedailychronic.net/2012/8422/thc-e-cig-goes-to-market/
19:24:50 <kmc> encyclopædophile
19:27:07 <ion> derpyclopædia
19:29:00 <kmc> i actually find it remarkable how consistent the tone is on wikipedia
19:29:13 <kmc> given the number of editors
19:29:20 <kmc> there are some aberrations like this article, of course
19:29:58 <kmc> but mostly people converge to a shared style in a way that's almost creepy
19:30:09 <fizzie> It's the mind control, I'd say.
19:30:18 <kmc> another explanation is that there are many authors but few editors; people add content and then the core editors massage the style
19:30:24 <fizzie> I think what they had were maybe something a tiny bit like http://unlimitedecigs.com/store/products/mega-ego-ce5-e-cigarette although I didn't really get a close look.
19:30:32 <kmc> which i think is supported by the data on edits
19:30:43 <fizzie> But that thing has some slight lightsabreish vibes in there.
19:30:49 <kmc> at one point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrichka was less of an encyclopedia article and more a guide on how to ride trains without paying
19:31:04 <Phantom_Hoover> man i would buy that thing just for how cool it looks
19:31:26 <kmc> i rode a suburban train in riga without paying so maybe i've been dog-riding
19:32:19 <Phantom_Hoover> no kmc, you've been train-riding
19:32:27 <Phantom_Hoover> the differences are at once subtle and glaring
19:33:25 <kmc> also in warszawa the gap between train and platform was like 30 cm or more, wtf
19:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> all the more space to get out if you fall down!
19:34:17 <elliott> trains are scary
19:34:27 <olsner> fizzie: including 2 MEGA EGO batteries, nice
19:34:41 <fizzie> olsner: Just in case you're having ego problems.
19:35:25 <fizzie> Apparently you can have one of 14 different colors for that middle translucent bit, too.
19:35:40 <olsner> how do you know if you're running low on ego?
19:36:03 <fizzie> There's a handy scale printed on top of the EGO-CE5 Cartomizer.
19:36:22 <fizzie> (Also available in 14 different colors!)
19:36:32 <kmc> wow, red bull flavored nicotine liquid
19:36:36 <kmc> just what i've always wanted
19:39:59 <Sgeo_> I kind of like the taste of Red Bull, I think
19:40:10 <Sgeo_> Although only had Red Bull twice
19:40:16 <atriq> I was on a train today
19:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i cemented my hatred of sports people today
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19:47:45 <atriq> Any in particular?
19:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> just in general
19:49:38 <olsner> how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers
19:51:44 <elliott> olsner: how is your os
19:53:06 <olsner> elliott: how's @?
19:53:44 <atriq> I remember @
19:54:52 <elliott> olsner: better than your os
20:00:07 <kmc> "sports people"?
20:00:14 <kmc> atriq: what kind of train?
20:00:18 <kmc> what was the track gauge
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20:01:22 <fizzie> "How much does this building weigh?" is a standard question to ask on the company excursions organized by the CS student "guild"/organization.
20:01:42 <fizzie> I don't know how many times there's been a serious answer.
20:02:00 <kmc> ham!
20:03:09 <elliott> fizzie: 3.
20:03:16 <kmc> 10 decibuildings
20:03:19 <pikhq> fizzie: It weighs 1 Biru
20:03:35 <olsner> you should organize your excursions to happen after the group of students who study the calculation of weights of buildings
20:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <olsner> how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers
20:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> hey now i'm cool with sports and its followers
20:06:48 <Phantom_Hoover> it's sports people i hate
20:07:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with sports people?
20:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> you know, sports people
20:07:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like athletes? or sport nerds?
20:07:23 <Phantom_Hoover> the people who are always jogging everywhere
20:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> and are in permanent tracksuits
20:07:29 <Vorpal> aaah
20:07:31 <Vorpal> those
20:07:32 <Vorpal> yeah
20:07:44 <Phantom_Hoover> and emanate an aura of condescending motivation
20:08:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also walking with ski poles or whatever they are called in English
20:08:15 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm wearing a jokey science shirt
20:08:17 <Taneb> Am I scum?
20:08:24 <Taneb> It says "Science gives me a hadron"
20:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> no, you're just bad
20:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> one of my analysis teachers seems to make a point of coming in in novelty t-shirts
20:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i only noticed it a week or so ago though
20:09:59 <Taneb> I often wear a Homestuck shirt
20:10:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what is your opinion about people using ski poles when walking?
20:10:09 <Vorpal> s/about/on/
20:10:21 <kmc> that's a good shirt
20:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> but do you wear a homestuck skirt/
20:10:42 <Taneb> kmc, it has similar origins to my cigar
20:10:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, would if I coulsd
20:10:48 <Taneb> * could
20:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a shirt from nasa with some terribly-typeset equations for escape velocity on it as a gift
20:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i always get told i look stupid when i wear it though
20:12:27 <Taneb> Haters gonna hate
20:12:34 <Taneb> Oh god I just said that
20:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck
20:12:38 <Taneb> Almost unironically
20:12:38 <Phantom_Hoover> you
20:12:44 <Taneb> Fuck me indeed
20:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought you weren't into that sort of thing
20:13:15 <Taneb> So did I
20:13:22 <Taneb> But Tumblr is doing bad things to me
20:13:22 <Taneb> help
20:13:54 <kmc> haters gonna make some valid points
20:14:11 <Taneb> Now I'm gonna suscribe to the Haskell tag
20:14:18 <Phantom_Hoover> wow man maybe you should leave tumblr alone if it's going to change your sexuality
20:17:35 <pikhq> Taneb: You pervosexual!
20:17:40 <Taneb> :O
20:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> weirdophile
20:25:16 <fizzie> olsner: Do you suppose those people that do architecture do that kind of thing?
20:25:24 <olsner> fizzie: no idea
20:25:34 <fizzie> We've got a department of that.
20:25:45 <fizzie> And maybe some other kind of building engineering thing.
20:28:02 -!- constant has changed nick to function.
20:28:20 <fizzie> "The Master’s Programme in Structural Engineering provides students with a solid knowledge of structural engineering and mechanics, building physics, ageing and life time management of structures, construction economics and management as well as building materials technology, foundation engineering or building services technology."
20:28:37 <fizzie> It doesn't sound too far off.
20:29:03 <fizzie> (Sadly, the companies selected for the excursions tend to differ.)
20:31:46 <elliott> Taneb: these fireworks are lam
20:31:47 <elliott> Taneb: these fireworks are lame
20:32:09 <elliott> actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much
20:32:10 <Taneb> Hence (lam -> lame)
20:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, possibly you are not the best person to evaluate firework quality then
20:34:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much <-- yeah, they are kind of cool the first time, but the novelty quickly fades
20:35:08 <nooodl_> fireworks in hexham?
20:35:39 <olsner> the inhabitants of hexham have given up and are trying to blow the whole thing up
20:39:44 <pikhq> Yes, the city of Roppiki Buta.
20:40:30 <pikhq> (ro'hîki hùta)
20:41:02 <kmc> no some fireworks are fucking sweet
20:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously elliott has never seen proper fireworks
20:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover> e.g. the one at the end of the fringe
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20:55:15 <olsner> pikhq: six pigs?
20:57:24 <Taneb> olsner, hex ham
20:58:28 <olsner> three times as much pig as twin pigs
20:58:36 <Lumpio-> Piggies!
21:00:21 <fizzie> Six Pigs is probably like the UK version of Six Flags. (Which I understand is a kinda thing.)
21:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Six Sheep is the Welsh version, of course.
21:11:51 <pikhq> olsner: Yes, six pigs is hexham
21:12:06 <pikhq> Well, maybe it should be Roppiki Butaniku
21:12:25 <pikhq> 六匹豚 does look awesome though
21:13:16 <olsner> !rot13 hexham
21:13:18 <EgoBot> urkunz
21:13:32 <olsner> oh, that must be german hexham
21:13:32 <Taneb> Sounds black speech
21:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> how appropriate for a place that was formerly slang for hell
21:14:13 <fizzie> Urkunz sounds like a site of a nuclear accident.
21:16:12 <olsner> it might be something like chwechmochyn in welsh
21:17:29 <Phantom_Hoover> that sounds like the site of a welsh nuclear accident
21:17:31 <Taneb> shestsvineygrad
21:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so does japanese not have a word for pigmeat
21:18:55 <Taneb> "豚肉"?
21:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, apparently that means 6 4 pig?
21:27:14 <Sgeo_> !rot13 kurloz
21:27:14 <EgoBot> xheybm
21:28:36 <quintopia> ^scramble hexham
21:28:37 <fungot> hxamhe
21:28:54 <olsner> fungot: say something about hexham
21:28:54 <fungot> olsner: she needs to know. do you agree with me, i'd probably be good at that too
21:29:30 <quintopia> ^style
21:29:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:29:31 <fizzie> ^rot13 Kurzweil
21:29:31 <fungot> Xhemjrvy
21:29:34 <quintopia> lol
21:29:36 <quintopia> i knew it
21:30:03 <Sgeo_> !rot13 hxamhe
21:30:04 <EgoBot> uknzur
21:30:31 <quintopia> ^scramble urkunz
21:30:32 <fungot> uknzur
21:31:01 <quintopia> stop repeating egobot, fungot!
21:31:02 <fungot> quintopia: but i wouldn't
21:32:49 <fizzie> fungot: Wouldn't repeat, or wouldn't stop?
21:32:50 <fungot> fizzie: like that, although i have no idea what the problem might be
21:32:56 <elliott> pikhq: do you know anything about logrotate
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21:44:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: "豚肉" is the word for pig meat.
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21:48:20 <Sgeo_> There exists a thing called OK! Magazine.
21:48:44 <Taneb> Yes
21:48:48 <Taneb> There's also Hello!
21:49:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also, 匹 is not 四, they just look similar.
21:50:31 <elliott> Sgeo_: i don't understand
21:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> also there's Heat
21:55:14 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
22:05:35 * Phantom_Hoover quickly regrets reading the wp articles on vcjd
22:06:39 -!- elliott has joined.
22:10:47 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:12:11 -!- quintopia has joined.
22:12:23 <Taneb> Hold on
22:12:26 <Taneb> I'm Taneb
22:12:30 <Taneb> When did this happen
22:12:57 <elliott> yes
22:13:33 <fizzie> You've been a Taneb for more than two hours now.
22:13:43 <Taneb> Wow
22:13:48 <Taneb> Wierd
22:13:52 <Taneb> *Werid
22:13:56 <Taneb> **Weird
22:13:59 <kmc> tan ebb
22:14:00 <Taneb> I'll get there eventually
22:14:01 <fizzie> There's a magazine called "Wired".
22:14:04 <Taneb> Yes
22:14:09 <Taneb> And an esolang called Wierd
22:14:34 <Taneb> I'm gonna get some sleep now
22:14:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:15:24 <elliott> it's only 22:00...
22:17:19 <shachaf> @localtime elliott
22:17:20 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Nov 4 22:17:19
22:17:22 <shachaf> netcraft confirms it
22:17:26 <shachaf> Well, the 22 part
22:18:31 <kmc> my UTC offset changed today!
22:20:22 <kmc> @localtime kmc
22:20:25 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sun Nov 4 17:21:26 2012
22:21:01 <fizzie> Finland's UTC offset changed last weekend.
22:24:02 <kmc> woooo
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22:56:06 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
22:56:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor doesn't have voice any mor
22:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> e
23:01:09 -!- ais523 has joined.
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23:26:54 <zzo38> So........
23:26:58 <zzo38> Do you like this??????
23:27:31 <elliott> yes zzo38
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23:32:23 <Sgeo_> I like this-as
23:32:35 <Sgeo_> (Disclaimer: Previous statement should not necessarily be regarded as correct)
23:37:03 <nooodl_> zzo38: i don't understand
23:48:00 <zzo38> nooodl_: Which one did you not understand?
23:48:12 <nooodl_> <zzo38> Do you like this??????
23:48:15 <nooodl_> what is "this"
23:48:39 <zzo38> It is.
23:48:45 <zzo38> Yes it is.
23:51:13 <nooodl_> hi
23:56:44 <zzo38> Which esolangs can be implemented using hardware description language?
00:15:10 <quintopia> 1mpr0mp2
00:15:27 <quintopia> i mean
00:15:28 <quintopia> uh
00:15:37 <quintopia> if you like writing lots of HDL code
00:20:56 <zzo38> The only HDL codes I have written are FamicomHDL, although I have read Verilog codes for the Amber processor core and for other things.
00:22:14 <kmc> what's FamicomHDL?
00:22:34 <zzo38> Hardware description for Famicom cartridges
00:22:51 <zzo38> It is actually a library in Haskell
00:23:14 <shachaf> 16:22 <jrajav> Ohh xkcd
00:23:15 <shachaf> 16:22 <jrajav> The monty python of nerds
00:23:15 <shachaf> 16:22 <jrajav> :P
00:24:30 <kmc> isn't that monty python
00:24:36 <kmc> also http://xkcd.com/16/
00:24:39 <zzo38> nrom = do { prgrom <- makeROM 0; chrrom <- makeROM 16384; connects $ zip cpuAddress (take 14 $ addressPins prgrom); connects $ zip cpuData (dataPins prgrom); connects $ zip ppuAddress (take 13 $ addressPins chrrom); ... and so on.
00:24:50 <kmc> cool
00:25:30 <elliott> war and peace, truly the crime and punishment of 19th-century russian novels
00:25:34 <elliott> btw i have read neither of those
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00:26:41 <zzo38> Even though NROM is the simplest mapper (well, almost; there is a simpler one that has neither CHR ROM nor CHR RAM), you still need ten lines of code to program it.
00:27:51 <zzo38> And of course you also need to import (or define) functions such as makeROM, connects, cpuAddress, etc
00:28:59 <zzo38> There are other hardware description languages, I do not know a lot about them. I know a few things of Verilog since I have read the codes to implement the Amber processor core.
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01:13:31 <elliott> kmc: do you know anything about linux networking
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01:22:44 <kmc> yes
01:22:51 <kmc> that is a pretty vague question though
01:23:00 <kmc> whatcha whatcha whatcha want
01:25:56 <elliott> well i thought i figured out what i wanted
01:25:58 <elliott> but then i became less sure
01:26:03 <elliott> i realise it is vague
01:26:21 <elliott> what i am wondering is how the hell do you communicate with tcp_diag from wizmode
01:26:38 <elliott> kernel docs for /proc/net/tcp{,6} say that they are deprecated in favour of tcp_diag
01:26:45 <elliott> but i have no idea how to use it and google is no help
01:26:50 <elliott> maybe i should read the docs or something
01:27:10 <elliott> ps what i am trying to do is figure out the UID of the owner of a TCP connection
01:27:37 <kmc> i have no idea what that is
01:28:06 <elliott> define that
01:28:14 <kmc> tcp_diag or wizmode
01:28:25 <elliott> er
01:28:28 <elliott> s/wizmode/user mode/
01:28:37 <elliott> by which i mean
01:28:38 <elliott> userspace
01:28:59 <kmc> netstat -p will give you PIDs
01:29:25 <elliott> right i guess that works
01:29:27 <elliott> i am trying to do it programmatically
01:29:30 <elliott> maybe i will look at netstat's source
01:29:44 <kmc> or lsof
01:29:49 <kmc> they are probably terrifying though
01:29:58 <elliott> probably
01:29:58 <kmc> sometimes when i want to see how a program does its magic, i use strace
01:30:06 <elliott> i hear something about tcp_diag using netlink sockets
01:30:08 <elliott> which uhhhhhh
01:30:10 <shachaf> strace++ kmc++
01:30:11 <kmc> buhhhhh
01:30:11 <elliott> i don't know how to use netlink sockets
01:30:14 <kmc> run away
01:30:18 <elliott> i barely even know what netlink sockets are!
01:30:20 <elliott> i don't wantto know
01:30:27 <kmc> a trainwreck
01:30:28 <elliott> s/wantto/want to/
01:30:29 <kmc> is what
01:31:05 <shachaf> strace: greater program or greatest program
01:31:25 <kmc> the linux developers decided that there aren't enough ways for userspace to communicate with the kernel (you know, every system call and every file in procfs or sysfs or debugfs) and so there should be a special socket type for communicating with the kernel as well
01:31:57 <kmc> oh i forgot "every device file" and "every ioctl on every device file"
01:32:32 <kmc> they couldn't even be like "here's a UNIX socket with the kernel on the other end"
01:32:38 <elliott> kmc: okay well this sounds like a distinct regression from /proc/net/tcp, yes
01:32:42 <kmc> it has to be a new socket type which behaves mostly like UNIX sockets
01:32:44 <shachaf> «Netlink was designed for and is used to transfer miscellaneous networking information between the Linux kernel space and user space processes.»
01:32:45 <kmc> but not quite
01:32:54 <shachaf> Miscellaneous networking information.
01:33:00 <shachaf> That's pretty useful.