←2016-07 2016-08 2016-09→ ↑2016 ↑all
2016-08-01
00:01:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, maybe we should start storing Ozone that we can fire into the atmosphere when needed
00:05:35 <wob_jonas> Taneb: sure, it already includes http://oeis.org/A107357 and http://oeis.org/A053169
00:06:14 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, that's the original phrasing of the puzzle.
00:06:30 <shachaf> int-e: But it turns out that Wikipedia is wrong, and it says "universality" instead of "non-universality".
00:07:00 <shachaf> I.e. universality is coNP-complete
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00:11:39 <int-e> shachaf: yes, I saw that clarification yesterday, thanks!
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00:34:07 <Xnuk> How do you pronounce ///? http://esolangs.org/wiki////
00:34:20 <oerjan> "slashes"
00:36:41 <Xnuk> oerjan: thanks
00:36:54 <oerjan> you're welcome
00:37:02 <oerjan> `relcome Xnuk
00:37:19 <HackEgo> Xnuk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, Goonies never say "die"
00:49:58 <hppavilion[1]> They must have a hard time playing DnD with English majors
00:51:10 <shachaf> I don't think English majors are particularly pedantic.
00:51:23 <shachaf> But surely they have trouble playing in German.
00:51:52 <shachaf> I learned that fact from The Onion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAa8Rf_a_Mo
00:54:38 <oerjan> de:die is not a homophone of en:die hth
00:55:41 <shachaf> Right.
00:55:49 <shachaf> And you think it's the latter than they never say?
00:56:05 <shachaf> Given that they speak English and not German, the former seems more likely.
00:56:05 <oerjan> i dunno, i have no idea what goonies are.
00:56:21 <shachaf> @google goonies
00:56:23 <lambdabot> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089218/
00:56:23 <lambdabot> Title: The Goonies (1985) - IMDb
00:57:23 <wob_jonas> wow. this travel insurance actually has a price per day that isn't an integer number of HUF. you rarely see that nowadays.
00:57:53 <wob_jonas> most things are rounded to integer HUF, except for very cheap things like per minute prices of mobile phone calls.
00:59:18 <shachaf> HUF is what came before HUG?
00:59:40 <shachaf> whoa, 1 HUF < 0.01 USD
01:00:02 <shachaf> Even 0.01 USD is too fine-grained for most things.
01:01:13 <pikhq> It's not that uncommon for currencies to be similarly overly-fine-grained though.
01:01:44 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, which is why the smallest cash coin is 5 HUF, and most bank transactions and similar are restricted to multiples of 1 HUF, but prices can still be fine grained even though they're usually multiples of 1 HUF for cheap things and multiples of 10 HUF for expensive things.
01:01:50 <pikhq> 1 KRW < 0.001 USD, for example.
01:02:11 <shachaf> How fine-grained should stock prices be?
01:02:16 <wob_jonas> You can have prices to high resolution and round for the whole transaction.
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01:03:19 <pikhq> Though, the KRW no longer has 1 KRW coins in circulation...
01:03:20 <shachaf> Until 2001, US stock prices were measured in sixteenths of a dollar.
01:03:26 <shachaf> Now they're measured in cents.
01:03:57 <shachaf> I mean the finest granularity.
01:04:25 <shachaf> It's called the tick size, and there are all sorts of trade-offs for deciding what it should be.
01:04:35 <shachaf> It seems silly to have the same tick size for expensive stocks and cheap stocks, though.
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01:07:34 <wob_jonas> In particular, the price of gas (petrol) for cars is shown per liters, and is usually shown as a multiple of 0.001 or 0.01 HUF. The price of household water and sewage in this location is 469.06 HUF per cubic meter.
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01:20:45 <hppavilion[1]> ahoily
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01:36:32 <oerjan> bohily
01:37:12 <boily> hppavellon[1]!
01:37:16 <boily> hellørjan!
01:38:17 <hppavilion[1]> I declare the winner of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njos57IJf-0 [Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates. Epic Rap Battles of History Season 2.] to be Richard Stallman
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02:28:23 <Sgeo> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bizarre-proof-to-torment-mathematicians-for-years-to-come/
02:28:27 <boily> there was a greater mummy behind khufu... holy fungot I didn't see it...
02:28:28 <fungot> boily: next it unveiled the latest to benefit of any party other than ena also sold more to do the right thing on the sidelines for any period. if you have not had any more.
02:28:31 <Sgeo> So, almost like the proof is bad code?
02:28:49 <boily> fungot: I'm still alive!
02:28:50 <fungot> boily: for complete information on the first is the pulmonary injury by capacity and fuel to the rate to a policy what policy: " section vii of the bond, the treasurer of each company
02:33:26 <boily> okay, not alive. got berserk and petrified at the same time.
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03:23:40 <Cale> Sgeo: Or code written in a programming language that nobody understands except Mochizuki
03:24:13 <Cale> Sgeo: I think it would be pretty hilarious if this was all an elaborate troll
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03:40:49 <Jafet> there are computer proofs written in languages that nobody else understands
03:41:17 <Jafet> the proofs work when you check them, but no one knows why
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05:23:14 <oerjan> `? password
05:23:34 <HackEgo> The password of the month is late.
05:30:11 <oerjan> <quintopia> it's too easy for alt+5 to slip and become alt+f4==instakill app <-- that's pretty much how my hydra died, except with fn instead of alt.
05:30:49 <quintopia> oerjan: well, killing the hydra was the goal, right?
05:30:54 <oerjan> and f5 instead of 5, probably.
05:31:00 <oerjan> quintopia: not quite that way.
05:31:24 <quintopia> oerjan: picky. just be happy the goal was accomplished
05:31:39 <oerjan> OKANEVER
05:40:14 <baordog> oerjan: You cracking stuff?
05:40:54 <oerjan> only GHC hth
05:43:51 <oerjan> @massages-lout
05:43:51 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
05:44:05 <oerjan> @massages-lout
05:44:05 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
05:44:10 <oerjan> huh.
05:44:23 <oerjan> ...maybe there was a ^O.
05:51:02 <zzo38> In my Linux system though, ALT+F4 has no special use. (When in text mode, it switches to screen 4, but in X you need CTRL+ALT+F4 to switch to screen 4.) (But I think the default window manager and desktop environment for Ubuntu does use ALT+F4 and some other stuff similar to Windows to make it easier for Windows users, but I have uninstalled those things.)
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06:56:10 <orin> It is a bad idea to watch love live and fly an airplane at the same time
06:56:37 <orin> i crashed into a mountain
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07:39:34 <moon_> Moo
07:55:15 <orin> ooom
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08:03:11 <orin> Oh crap it happened
08:04:35 <orin> I was watching anime and --oh shit I've actually been to that exact place in tokyo where the character's standing!
08:04:51 <int-e> shachaf: okay, in the end I think membership in coNP is easier than coNP-hardness. (I don't know an NP-complete problem that embeds naturally)
08:05:13 <orin> really weird feeling of deja vu
08:06:20 <orin> what would you call deja vu induced by a cartoon
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08:08:17 <orin> "deja toon"
08:09:59 <shachaf> int-e: I found an article that has a reduction from 3SAT
08:10:56 <int-e> does it work for arbitrary CNFs or is the size of clauses actually used?
08:11:02 <orin> whoever drew this must have been sketching from the balcony of the McDonalds that overlooks Shinjuku
08:12:03 <shachaf> I think it'd work for arbitrary CNFs?
08:12:52 <shachaf> But I'm typing on my phone at the train station. Will probably be able to say more later.
08:13:49 <int-e> shachaf: then it may be doing a similar thing to what I've dreamed up.
08:13:50 <shachaf> Anyway the coNP argument is probably something like "raise the adjacency matrix to the nth power"
08:14:03 <int-e> and yes, it is
08:17:33 <int-e> Hmm, the current Schlock Mercenary story arc would fit perfectly under "Force Multiplication". Too bad that book title is already taken within the series :P
08:18:10 <moon_> Im trying to run a game in a way that people can play it all together through telnet. How should i do this? Im thinking bash
08:19:41 <oerjan> isn't that what MUDs are for.
08:20:24 <moon_> Im trying to hae fun by haveing a bunch of people play a single instance of dwarf fortress over telnet
08:21:53 <farrioth> Twitch plays Dwarf Fortress?
08:22:03 * oerjan points at the non-present ais523
08:22:09 <farrioth> And good luck getting that going over telnet...
08:22:22 <moon_> Putty then
08:22:24 <moon_> ?
08:23:01 <oerjan> could screen or tmux work that way?
08:23:06 <farrioth> Dwarf Fortress is a graphical program (even when not using graphical tiles).
08:23:09 <moon_> no
08:23:16 <moon_> Linux has text mode
08:23:22 <moon_> S does mac
08:23:41 <farrioth> Really?
08:23:44 <moon_> mhm
08:23:57 <farrioth> Since what version?
08:24:02 <moon_> Change the graphics setting from 2D to TEXT
08:24:11 <moon_> dunno, long while
08:24:56 <farrioth> You're not mistaking the normal (non-tiles) mode for an actual console-based mode?
08:25:04 <moon_> nope
08:25:10 <moon_> i've used it over ssh
08:25:55 <moon_> and i helped develop a discord bot that has a selfupdating (message ediT) emulated terminal, it could display df too
08:26:08 <moon_> the bot hasent been on for a while
08:26:11 <farrioth> That is news to me, then.
08:26:15 <moon_> lol
08:26:40 <moon_> well, how would i broker it using bash, i have ncat (that comes with nmap) if that helps
08:28:37 <farrioth> Hmm, documentation says, "primitive ncurses output". You are correct.
08:29:10 <farrioth> You'd probably want to use whatever it is that nethack@alt.org uses, let me see what it's called.
08:29:25 <moon_> no, single game instance
08:29:33 <moon_> im nit running a hoard of df lo,
08:29:36 <farrioth> Although you want everyone controlling one instance, right, not just providing it as a service?
08:29:41 <moon_> mhm
08:29:51 <farrioth> I'd just use screen, then.
08:30:42 <moon_> And what would i do with the screen? I need to know how to broker it
08:31:03 <farrioth> I'm not really sure what you mean by broker here.
08:31:31 <moon_> Be a server, transmit the games data to the users and give the game their input
08:32:26 <farrioth> So you're just connecting multiple terminal endpoints to the same program and sending that all the input from all the terminals?
08:32:52 <moon_> Mhm lol
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08:35:37 <farrioth> Just have everyone connect to the same screen session, I suppose.
08:36:37 <moon_> But i dont know how i should do that in bash, or is there something about screens i dont know
08:36:59 <farrioth> I don't think you need to involve bash at all.
08:37:44 <moon_> What should i use? Node.js and C++ are my main kanguages, am i just looking at this wrong?
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08:38:35 <farrioth> I'm not sure what part of it you feel requires any programming.
08:39:04 <moon_> Hi hppavilion[1] .
08:39:17 <hppavilion[1]> Helloon
08:41:26 <moon_> You know a good way to allow multiple people to telnet to a system and use one instance of a prgram, in this case dwaf fortress?
08:42:13 <farrioth> What was wrong with my suggestion? :/
08:42:59 <moon_> I really just dont get how im going to USE the screen.
08:43:16 <oerjan> he means "screen", the program.
08:43:39 <moon_> I know, i dont know what to do with it afterwrds
08:44:07 <farrioth> So people log in and then all connect to the same screen session. Their input is all sent to whatever's running in it, and they all see the output of whatever's running in it.
08:44:22 <moon_> Problem: open server
08:44:53 <farrioth> So you run Dwarf Fortress inside screen, then people log in, and attach to that screen session.
08:45:09 <farrioth> I'd personally do it over ssh, but you could use telnet if you wanted to.
08:45:37 <moon_> Err, but then i have to give them access to the system, i only want them to have dwarf fortress
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08:47:01 <farrioth> They're always going to need to log in to the system, you just need to stop them from running anything other than screen or Dwarf Fortress.
08:47:20 <farrioth> How to stop screen from being able to execute arbitrary commands is a good question, though.
08:49:19 <moon_> Thought so, i just want to do something with the output, send it to the users, and get input
08:52:34 <farrioth> Unbinding C-a : should be sufficient, I think.
08:52:55 <farrioth> But you'll probably want to unbind some other stuff too so users don't try and do annoying stuff.
08:54:01 <moon_> I personally think that adding screen is a bit of a waste, i dont see where its needes in the input => program => output => repeat loop
08:57:01 <farrioth> It effectively virtualizes a terminal and allows multiple endpoints to be connected to it.
08:57:18 <farrioth> In other words, it lets people log in on multiple terminals and see the same thing.
08:58:28 <farrioth> (And send input to it.)
09:01:41 <izabera> last week i was testing stuff and added debug code that dumped a structure to /tmp/izdump
09:01:50 <izabera> it turns out that shit is now packaged and shipped -_-
09:02:00 <moon_> Gg
09:02:15 <farrioth> It looks like you can actually use screen's builtin acl support to stop users from executing commands.
09:03:18 <moon_> Hmm.. damn a example script eould help lol, but ok, im following
09:03:35 <izabera> google isn't providing solutions for "unship code"
09:03:43 <moon_> Lol
09:08:30 <farrioth> I'll have a go at one, hold on.
09:08:59 <int-e> did it brick the devices? no -> push update to the previous release. yes -> cash in your stock in the company and move far away
09:09:38 <izabera> int-e: it's not my fault! that wasn't supposed to end up in prod
09:09:42 <izabera> i don't wanna move away
09:09:59 <b_jonas> My "f" finger hurts. I wonder if I should hold a pen between that finger and the left thumb to make sure I'm not typing with it, because typing just makes it hurt more.
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09:11:25 <Jafet> you could remap f to capslock (and r and v, for good measure.)
09:12:01 <farrioth> moon_: To be honest I think this will do it:
09:12:01 <farrioth> escape ''
09:12:02 <farrioth> bind ^d detach
09:13:56 <farrioth> Unless ^d does something in Dwarf Fortress; I can't remember.
09:23:33 <moon_> Dwarf fortress overrides ^d
09:25:28 <farrioth> Pick some other keystroke it doesn't use, then (if there are any :p).
09:25:51 <farrioth> You could use a prefix like screen normally does, it would make the config longer is all.
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09:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> ...why the hell does the H○ scale convert real-world feet to scale-world millimeters?
09:38:49 <farrioth> Because 16.5 mm is a nice value for rail spacing?
09:39:02 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: But is it really?
09:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> Personally, I think all railroad models should be in 87:1
09:39:21 <izabera> `` echo open shell? Hopefully no # moon_
09:39:31 <HackEgo> open shell? Hopefully no
09:40:03 <moon_> Ik, but thats sandboxed, and so is shbot, i didnt know what you used
09:40:12 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: 87:1 not 1:87? :p
09:40:18 <izabera> shbot has a much stricter sandbox
09:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: Yes.
09:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: Your model has to be larger than the original.
09:42:25 <hppavilion[1]> I think a good xkcdsw would be http://xkcd.com/1294/, but "telescope" becomes "dildo"
09:44:04 <myname> railroad models should be 1:1
09:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: All railroad models should be made in 1:89+41i
09:49:11 <farrioth> Lol.
09:50:58 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i am okay with that
09:51:31 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps model train layouts should be logarithmic?
09:52:48 <myname> 1:i*pi
09:52:58 <moon_> You know what, just plain out how do you stream a program to multiple users using telnet?
09:54:39 <hppavilion[1]> Interestingly, I was introduced to Never Gonna Give You Up by anything other than 4chan
09:55:30 <myname> that's easy if you don't 4chan
10:00:07 <farrioth> moon_: Normally you don't need to do such a thing, since for most services you'd fork per connection.
10:00:39 <farrioth> In fact, I can't really think of a use case apart for something like this or nethack@alt.org, etc.
10:00:49 <farrioth> I'd be interested if there are, thoguh.
10:00:54 <farrioth> *though
10:01:09 <moon_> Im good now
10:05:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, but the first time I heard it was in the movie "Miracle in Toyworld" or something like that
10:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> So it's permanently associated with that
10:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> If HO is supposed to be H0, is there an H1?
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15:25:07 <b_jonas> ah!
15:39:11 <int-e> oh!
15:41:26 <Taneb> uh?
15:42:48 <myname> eh.
15:44:55 <izabera> æ ø å you ain't got the æ ø å
15:48:48 <int-e> nor the äöü
15:49:41 <int-e> nor аиоуэ
15:49:59 <int-e> (greek anyone?)
16:17:15 <b_jonas> `olist 1046
16:17:44 <HackEgo> olist 1046: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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16:33:00 * ybden appreciates `? chicken
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20:20:27 <quintopia> @metar katl
20:20:27 <lambdabot> KATL 011911Z 24006KT 10SM -RA FEW020 SCT075 BKN100 BKN250 28/24 A3008 RMK AO2 RAB02 TSE11 TS MOV SE CB DSNT NE & DSNT S-SW-W TCU DSNT N-NE & DSNT SW SHRA DSNT S-SW-W P0000 T02830239
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20:20:32 <quintopia> not bad
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20:36:25 <Taneb> @metar LIPZ
20:36:26 <lambdabot> LIPZ 011920Z 03009KT CAVOK 24/15 Q1015 NOSIG
20:37:15 <Taneb> Going there on Wednesday
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20:40:58 <izabera> and checking @metar now helps?
20:41:51 <shachaf> And saying "and checking @metar now helps?" helps?
20:43:15 <izabera> yes
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20:48:34 <Taneb> izabera, I have a friend near there right now
20:48:40 <Taneb> Also I can't actually read meta
20:48:40 <Taneb> r
20:48:47 <Taneb> It just makes me feel like I'm doing something
20:48:50 <shachaf> No one can read METAR.
20:49:15 <Taneb> And the friend is closer to LIPB anyway
20:49:27 <Taneb> @metar LIPB
20:49:28 <lambdabot> LIPB 011850Z VRB02KT 9999 SCT090 24/14 Q1015
20:49:44 <shachaf> Taneb: All you need to do is look at the two numbers separated by a /
20:49:55 <shachaf> The first one is temperature.
20:50:04 <shachaf> That's all I know about METAR.
20:50:22 <shachaf> `? metar
20:50:29 <izabera> the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport
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20:50:36 <HackEgo> metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
20:50:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the second number is apparently the dew point
20:50:56 <shachaf> I knew that.
20:51:00 <izabera> the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport, also called the dew point
20:51:02 <shachaf> But I didn't know what dew point was.
20:51:22 <Phantom_Hoover> the dew point is apparently the point at which you get dew
20:51:52 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s# w# metar, w#
20:51:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, are you sure you'd never invent a genetic algorithm with sexual reproduction?
20:53:00 <shachaf> Wait, Taneb invented Tanebventions?
20:53:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, fairly
20:53:28 <Taneb> With modern technology, sex is completely unnecessary for algorithms, you see
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20:53:58 <Taneb> Although I've not a clue about genetic programming
20:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, well obviously, who else would invent them
20:54:09 <Taneb> (doing a module on it next term)
20:54:17 <Phantom_Hoover> they'd be izaberaventions or whatever in that case
20:54:31 <Taneb> izabera, have you been inventing tanebventions
20:54:41 <izabera> not yet
20:54:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, there you go
20:55:29 <izabera> i was planning to
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20:55:37 <izabera> but it takes a while
20:55:40 <izabera> it's a long project
20:55:53 <shachaf> Not really.
20:56:00 <shachaf> You just put the tanebvention in the wisdom entry.
20:56:05 <shachaf> Taneb is the one who has to do the hard work.
20:56:22 <izabera> that's the lazy way
20:56:59 <Taneb> shachaf, what izabera is planning is to invent something and convince me and everyone else that I was the one who invented it
20:57:19 <shachaf> D-modules were the first Tanebvention, right?
20:57:29 <izabera> something something three headed dildos ?
20:57:53 <Taneb> shachaf, I believe so
20:58:03 <shachaf> I think that falls outside the purview of Tanebventions.
20:58:42 <Taneb> izabera, I'm no expert but I think three headed dildos involve sex
20:59:35 <izabera> it's your invention
20:59:42 <izabera> make something up with it
20:59:55 <shachaf> I think Taneb would rather just uninvent it.
21:00:03 <izabera> too late
21:00:12 <izabera> patent pending
21:00:24 <shachaf> Taneb never invented it in the first place.
21:00:33 <izabera> whoa easy there
21:00:33 <shachaf> `? taneb
21:00:35 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:01:02 <Taneb> Can someone who knows the HackEgo magic change that eight to a nine please
21:02:03 <shachaf> Taneb: The magic is this: `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:02:27 <Taneb> `swld taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:02:28 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swld: not found
21:02:31 <Taneb> ARE YOU SURE
21:02:43 <shachaf> YES HTH
21:02:51 <shachaf> but you gotta type it correctly
21:02:51 <Taneb> `? taneb
21:02:54 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:03:01 <Taneb> `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:03:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:03:16 <Taneb> shachaf, I haven't invented typing things correctly yet tht
21:03:27 <shachaf> `? tht
21:03:29 <HackEgo> tht? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:03:44 <Taneb> It's hth but I haven't invented typing things correctly
21:04:08 -!- dleled has joined.
21:05:48 <izabera> yet
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21:14:25 <moon_> Hi
21:18:59 <orin> mhelloon!
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21:39:42 -!- moon_ has joined.
21:40:01 <moon_> I've started playing around in MSDOS 6.22
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21:40:51 <int-e> the best OS ever to come out of the house of Microsoft
21:41:10 <int-e> (I hope my University OS professor doesn't read this ;-) )
21:41:56 <moon_> lol what does he prefer win10?
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21:43:11 <int-e> Probably not.
21:43:55 -!- atrapado has joined.
21:44:00 <int-e> But DOS offers almost none of the defining features of an OS, most notably it does not offer any multitasking or isolation of multiple processes or access control.
21:44:18 <shachaf> I prefer Windows 10 to MS-DOS 6.22
21:44:40 <int-e> That MS botnet is scary.
21:45:49 <int-e> (I honestly believe that this term is 100% accurate in this context: It is software that phones home automatically and updates itself with whatever code its masters provide, automatically.)
21:46:22 <int-e> Of course Android isn't much different.
21:46:50 <int-e> Most Linux distros on the other hand, are... though perhaps not different enough to matter in practice.
21:49:22 <shachaf> What about web software?
21:49:37 <shachaf> All software is becoming web software.
21:50:00 <int-e> You mean SaaS?
21:50:13 <int-e> "web software" is not a meaningful term to me.
21:50:59 <moon_> hmm... Hey, b_jonas, you here?
21:51:15 <shachaf> I mean software written in JavaScritp and delivered to a web browser.
21:51:26 <int-e> horrible.
21:51:35 <shachaf> Well, being written in JavaScript isn't even that important.
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21:52:08 <int-e> But it kind of depends on how good the sandboxing is.
21:52:17 <int-e> And what you do with it...
21:52:31 <int-e> ...a web online game I have no trouble with.
21:53:05 <int-e> ...a web office program that may cease existing tomorrow... that's an entirely different matter.
21:53:14 <int-e> but not really part of the botnet problem in my view
21:53:18 <int-e> more the opposite
21:53:24 <int-e> (dual, if you like)
21:53:33 <shachaf> It has the same auto-update issue.
21:53:37 <Zekka> int-e: W10 is a botnet under those terms imho, it's just hypothetically a desirable one
21:53:46 <shachaf> Every time you start up the software, you fetch a brand new copy from the web server.
21:53:48 <int-e> shachaf: yes it does, hence the sandboxing
21:54:05 <shachaf> OK, so run Windows 10 in a VM, I guess?
21:54:21 <int-e> shachaf: which allows me to think of it as an extension of *THEIR* server using some of my own computing resources
21:54:39 <Zekka> there is lots of software that updates the same way -- the reason a botnet is evil is because it does evil things with your computer resources
21:54:49 <shachaf> I'm sure Microsoft would like for you to think of Windows the same way.
21:55:15 <int-e> yes, Win 10 in a VM is an option... well... once we find a secure hypervisor. :P
21:55:16 <Zekka> (disclaimer: MS employee here)
21:55:36 <int-e> Zekka: the technology is neutral.
21:55:58 <Zekka> FWIW I'm not qualified to assess if W10 is doing evil -- I have friends who worked on it who said the parts they worked on did not appear to be doing evil
21:56:02 <int-e> and from a technological perspective there's not enough of a difference that it matters to me.
21:56:18 <Zekka> it's possible, even likely that there are parts he didn't work on that are evil
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21:57:46 <int-e> (and this whole way we're doing software... as indicated above this is not limited to MS or even the commerical world... has ramification that I really don't want to think about. For example, for cryptography. Your crypto software may be secure now, but it can be backdoored without notice.)
21:58:07 <wob_jonas> Oh man. I'll indeed so have to buy a new computer in autumn. I love this one and it's served it well, it will probably retire with full honors, but it's just SLOW.
21:58:20 <Zekka> FWIW I think you should never assume your data is safe because of crypto
21:58:23 <int-e> Hmm, computer.
21:58:34 <int-e> Will MS still allow me to install my Win 7 copy on another machine?
21:58:40 <Zekka> you can shake your fist at companies like microsoft because we've probably backdoored our crypto implementations in one place or another
21:59:06 <Zekka> But afaik usually it's humans following bad security precautions that compromise security situations
21:59:06 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Install Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS 6.22
21:59:16 <int-e> Or will that be the point where I give up on Windows altogether and suffer through the lmited supply of games that work on Linux?
21:59:24 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I have them in an emulator
21:59:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: have you seen termbot? that runs ms-dos 6.22
21:59:34 <Zekka> your crypto is not particularly important if your super anonymous messages to known targets are sent from the same computer at the same times as your normal tweets
22:00:07 <Zekka> if I started sending tons of messages to ISIS from my personal machine, even if I used magic to guarantee my channel was cryptographically safe, it would probably be evident I was talking to ISIS
22:00:10 <int-e> Oh I know... https://xkcd.com/538/
22:00:18 <wob_jonas> it could also run windows 3.11, but it would be a bit hard to use unless you did some serious preparation, because normally you control windows through the monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and termbot doesn't give you access to those
22:00:28 <int-e> Zekka: that's what Tor is for.
22:00:30 <Zekka> probably the best strategy you can do is not communicate things you don't want found
22:00:35 <Zekka> int-e: Oh yeah, bring in anonymous third-parties
22:00:52 <Zekka> Obviously a hostile government could never run its own tor nodes and have them collude
22:00:57 <Zekka> and obviously this hasn't already happened
22:01:14 <int-e> (Tor, obviously, isn't perfect either, and a very lucrative target for secret services)
22:01:19 <wob_jonas> Zekka: why'd they pay for their own nodes? they just put malware on existing nodes.
22:01:51 <int-e> (But we know from the Snowden files that it must, actually, be quite good and be causing the NSA a lot of headaches.)
22:02:06 <Zekka> Didn't the guy who made bomb threats to get out of tests at Stanford or something get found out because he was the only dude on campus using Tor?
22:02:20 <Zekka> It probably wasn't Stanford, but it was some major school for smart people
22:02:53 <Zekka> I would be wary of crypto that makes it obvious I'm using crypto, because it means more people would want to snoop on me
22:04:09 <Zekka> If I had secret terrorist plans I would probably meet my secret terrorist buddies in person somewhere in the wilderness
22:04:52 <wob_jonas> Zekka: crypto that makes it obvious that you're using crypto? like connecting to freenode through ssl?
22:04:55 <int-e> . o O ( because that worked so well in 1984 )
22:04:55 <Zekka> maybe I'd develop secret terrorist plans I could carry out alone
22:05:09 <shachaf> Microsoft has secret terrorist plans?
22:05:18 <Zekka> shachaf: Don't tell the press!
22:05:18 <wob_jonas> Zekka: tell the logs all about them
22:05:25 <shachaf> I always thought Microsoft had secret communist plans.
22:05:32 <shachaf> They don't call it "Redmond" for nothing.
22:05:48 <Zekka> wob_jonas: I dunno, SSL's so commonplace that it's probably not seen as a red flag any more
22:06:05 <shachaf> And you would know all about red flags.
22:06:25 <wob_jonas> Zekka: so just use SSL for everything you want to encrypt?
22:06:51 <Zekka> I would not make the assumption that SSL is safe
22:07:02 <moon_> could you try connecting to 76.1.72.128 port 5138? (telnet). im making sure a port works before i do something
22:07:24 <wob_jonas> Zekka: of course not. it's just a tool. you have to use it correctly.
22:07:46 <Zekka> That'sk inda what I'm getting at -- you can't blame a single party for "I used crypto and my secrets aren't safe"
22:07:59 <Zekka> if you actually want to be safe you shouldn't communicate your secrets
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22:19:25 <int-e> @tell oerjan GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey!
22:19:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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22:23:35 <shachaf> `? tanebventions: math
22:23:44 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
22:23:51 <shachaf> `? lambek's lemma
22:23:54 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
22:24:02 <shachaf> Taneb: Vaughan Pratt says "the ability to prove Lambek's lemma is a litmus test of whether you can think categorically"
22:24:12 <shachaf> Did you prove it or just invent it?
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22:29:17 <alercah> what is lambek's lemma?
22:29:46 -!- almightynsx1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:31:43 <alercah> what use is pointless topology?
22:32:01 <myname> it's pointless
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22:33:19 <int-e> alercah: from what I just read, the fact that an initial algebra is an isomorphism
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22:34:40 <alercah> isomorphism of?
22:34:54 <alercah> oh wait
22:34:58 <shachaf> Its domain and codomain.
22:34:59 <alercah> what is an initial algebra?
22:35:27 <int-e> something categorical.
22:35:41 <alercah> presumably an initial object in some category?
22:35:48 <shachaf> Yes.
22:35:57 <alercah> which category?
22:36:06 <shachaf> the category of algebras hth
22:36:15 <int-e> the category of F-algebras for a functor F, which are maps F(A) -> A.
22:36:15 <alercah> how is it a morphism then?
22:36:21 <alercah> ahhh ty
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22:37:18 <int-e> So I can still prove Lambek's lemma. But I've seen it before and I don't like category theory.
22:37:53 <shachaf> What do you like?
22:38:28 <int-e> logic, algebra, combinatorics
22:41:50 <shachaf> Well, category theory is just algebra.
22:42:40 <alercah> ^
22:42:53 <alercah> int-e: what is A in the above?
22:42:57 <alercah> an object?
22:43:56 <int-e> alercah: in some underlying category, yes. I mean it's an argument to F which is a functor, so there's little choice in the matter.
22:44:12 <alercah> int-e: a functor maps morphisms too though
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22:45:59 <int-e> shachaf: I get basic category theory; it's even useful to some extent. But it's a very hard way of thinking for me, and I tend to interpret everything in Set to make sense out of it.
22:46:03 * int-e shrugs
22:46:48 <alercah> try poset categories
22:48:11 <wob_jonas> Categories in the sense of thinking of some of maths as talking about morphisms between objects is useful, but it doesn't require too much theory of course.
22:48:33 <wob_jonas> It does give some useful naming conventions that helps communicate with other mathematicians.
22:48:39 * gamemanj looks at the backlog. gamemanj scrolls up. gamemanj scrolls up further. gamemanj is an idiot. YGMP+SLP==???
22:49:04 <int-e> ?!
22:49:04 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
22:49:13 <int-e> lambdabot: I most certainly did not.
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23:06:18 <wob_jonas> This happens a lot with algebra, not only category theory. There's also a negative effect though, in that when mathematicians explain something with algebraic language, and young mathematicianlings are listening, it can seem quite alien and hard to understand, even if the underlying thought is pretty simple and they could understand it.
23:06:23 <wob_jonas> But that's just a temporary effect.
23:06:51 <shachaf> Soon, the young mathematicianlings will turn into aliens.
23:07:16 <alercah> mathematicianling is an overly complicated word
23:07:37 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you a mathematicianling?
23:08:44 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:09:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah. eventually they grow and they themselves will talk nonsense like "Wait, that's too abstract. Let's take a specific example. Say, let A be a self-adjoint operator over a complex space."
23:09:54 <shachaf> roll your self-adjoint and join the fun
23:11:34 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:15:36 <shachaf> i,i "Take a positive integer N. No wait, N is too big; take a positive integer k."
23:15:51 <shachaf> I was looking for a different joke but I've forgotten it now.
23:17:37 <int-e> gone up in smoke.
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23:18:13 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, like that
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23:24:47 <moon_> I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help?
23:25:16 <moon_> cmd: ncat -l --keep-open --sh-exec "./df" 5318
23:25:36 -!- boily has joined.
23:26:08 <moon_> I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help?
23:26:10 <moon_> woops
23:26:12 <moon_> damnit
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23:36:14 <shachaf> this joke from mathoverflow is so good
23:36:17 <shachaf> I went to visit him while he was lying ill at the hospital. I had come in taxi cab number 14 and remarked that it was a rather dull number. "No" he replied, "it is a very interesting number. It's the smallest number expressible as the product of 7 and 2 in two different ways."
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23:45:01 * boily mathwackematics shachaf
23:45:05 <boily> hellørjan!
23:45:11 <boily> `relcome byteflame
23:45:18 <HackEgo> byteflame: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:49:28 <oerjan> helloily!
23:50:04 <boily> byerjan!
23:50:06 <boily> (poutine time!)
23:50:08 <oerjan> @messages-foul
23:50:08 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 30m 43s ago: GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey!
23:50:13 <oerjan> int-e: wat?
23:50:22 <boily> bwah ah ah!
23:50:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SUGAR CHICKEN).
23:50:50 <oerjan> hey, he left, i was going to make an awful pun :(
23:54:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e sadly, i've played very few computer games hth
23:54:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:54:50 <shachaf> oerjan: which ones twh
23:55:08 <oerjan> well, there's tetris...
23:56:46 <oerjan> civilization, although i usually chickened out soon after the enemies started appearing.
23:57:52 <oerjan> a number of small mindless games and abstract puzzle games.
23:58:48 <oerjan> many of which i've forgot.
2016-08-02
00:00:25 <oerjan> i guess i played a couple MUDs, and that's about all of rpg-like things. (excluding a game for Oric-1 called Zodiac, which i never got very far in.)
00:00:46 <oerjan> no first person shooters, ever, afair.
00:01:19 <shachaf> the hydra game hth
00:01:22 <shachaf> and palisade hth
00:01:33 <oerjan> i thnk that counts as "abstract puzzle" hth
00:01:51 <oerjan> i wasn't going to list those individually.
00:01:55 <oerjan> *think
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00:02:24 <shachaf> what about nomic hth
00:02:41 <oerjan> i didn't count that as a computer game.
00:03:09 <oerjan> unless you want to argue semantics tdnh
00:03:25 <oerjan> except for that schemenomic thing, once.
00:03:33 <shachaf> isn't that what nomic is about
00:03:42 <oerjan> shachaf: ...point.
00:05:57 <oerjan> the chances of getting deeper into gaming diminished sharply after my hands started aching back in 2003 or thereabouts.
00:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i feel like there are genres of game that you can play fine even with that
00:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> like there are strategy games which require about the same level of mouse use as just web browsing
00:08:14 <oerjan> i don't use a mouse these days, but a trackpad. also, i can ache simply from typing if i do it long enough.
00:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> trackpad, mouse, if you can click buttons on a screen it works out the same
00:09:15 <oerjan> well i'm just not sure how different they are for the hands.
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00:13:48 <fizzie> You can play text adventures with voice control hth
00:14:14 <shachaf> hizzie
00:14:27 <shachaf> `tervetuloa fizzie
00:14:28 <HackEgo> fizzie: Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavan #esoteric päälle EFnet tai Dalnet.)
00:15:23 <fizzie> That's very silly.
00:15:35 <shachaf> What is?
00:15:39 <oerjan> grammar corrections are also `welcome hth
00:15:53 <shachaf> Telling people to go to Dalnet #esoteric, when it doesn't even exist?
00:16:05 <oerjan> it used to?
00:16:25 <oerjan> it was the first we found afair.
00:16:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Everything except the parenthetical remark seems fine.
00:16:57 <oerjan> fizzie: and the grammar of that is atrocious?
00:16:57 <shachaf> HackEgo: what are you Muumin' for
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00:17:01 <shachaf> wait, that doesn't make sense
00:17:10 <oerjan> we _do_ get the other kind occasionally.
00:17:29 <shachaf> moomins are tg
00:17:32 <oerjan> in fact we have one here right now, who somehow doesn't leave.
00:17:45 <oerjan> no wait
00:17:50 <oerjan> e just left.
00:18:03 <oerjan> although there might be others.
00:18:08 <fizzie> The latter could be something like: "kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa."
00:19:09 <oerjan> `slwd welcome.fi//s/kokeile.*/kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)/
00:19:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome.fi//Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)
00:19:35 <fizzie> It's hard because you really would need to inflect the names EFnet and Dalnet, and they're not really very Finnish. So I cheated by making it "in the EFnet or Dalnet network" instead.
00:20:02 <oerjan> Efnetti
00:20:10 <oerjan> *F
00:20:17 <shachaf> oerjan: are you making fun of finland
00:20:20 <shachaf> tdnh
00:20:26 <fizzie> Well. EFnetissä. Maybe.
00:20:40 <shachaf> the dogs now howl
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00:21:11 <oerjan> the owls now hdog
00:21:16 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:21:19 <fizzie> (For some reason, in Finnish, the channels are definitely "in", not "on".)
00:21:31 <shachaf> oerjan: that doesn't make a tonh of sense hth
00:21:43 <oerjan> socking
00:21:55 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you recommend learning Finnish?
00:21:58 <fizzie> Hyperbolic dog.
00:22:15 <fizzie> Or no, that'd be dogh.
00:22:43 <shachaf> arcdog
00:23:01 <shachaf> my arcdog has an arctic problem
00:23:40 * oerjan arcs his swatter onto shachaf -----###
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00:25:02 <shachaf> i,i internet relay cat
00:27:44 <oerjan> is shacaf a decaf brand
00:28:18 <shachaf> why would it be decaf
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00:29:35 <oerjan> for ryming purposes hth
00:30:24 <quintopia> i c wut u did
00:30:49 <oerjan> quhintopia
00:31:07 <shachaf> oerjan: You have permission to mispronounce my name, because I always mispronounce yours.
00:31:18 <quintopia> altoug, i tink you meant "for ryming purposes t" t
00:31:26 <moon_> how would i randomly run one of 5 diffrent commands? (bash)
00:31:38 <oerjan> shachaf: but, but, i've been training on uvular fricatives
00:31:41 <lynn> How does Finnish generally handle the inflection of foreign names, fizzie?
00:31:49 <shachaf> hi lynn
00:32:00 <oerjan> . o O ( "badly" )
00:32:21 <shachaf> did you hear about how unary nfa universality is conp-complete (scow)
00:32:24 <quintopia> ...i would never have thought to pronounce shachaf with a uvular fricative
00:32:26 <oerjan> (that's the inflection, not the fricatives)
00:32:27 <quintopia> now i'm going to
00:32:33 <oerjan> shachaf: yes.
00:32:37 <shachaf> That's the official pronunciation.
00:32:45 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes what?
00:33:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i saw int-e point out that's an equivalent formulation
00:33:28 <oerjan> quintopia: you could sabotage it by pronouncing the "sh" as one instead
00:33:53 <quintopia> oerjan: i'll voice the "sh" hth
00:33:57 <quintopia> what is conp
00:34:06 <shachaf> CoNP
00:34:09 <quintopia> oh
00:34:12 <oerjan> oh, and btw, the stress is apparently on the first syllable, which was opposite of my initial assumption.
00:34:32 <shachaf> Your initial assumption was that it's on the other two?
00:34:44 <quintopia> i've never thought of emphasizing the second syllable--now i'm going to
00:35:33 <quintopia> new unofficial quintopia pronunciation: "zhach AS fuck"
00:35:59 <oerjan> quintopia: that would be "for ryming purposes t t", i think, since it would break my script.
00:36:05 <int-e> that makes me feel better about "schaf" ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schafe )
00:36:14 <int-e> oerjan: what awful pun didn't you make
00:36:34 <int-e> oerjan: I mean there was a bunch of bad puns anyway
00:36:38 <lynn> My pronunciation advice: say "shachaf-chan" but pronounce "shachaf" all wrong but make the ch in "chan" is a uvular fricative
00:37:00 <quintopia> CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!!~~~~~
00:37:02 <fizzie> lynn: We just mangle them in the way that sounds least bad.
00:37:42 <oerjan> moon_: using shuf -n 1 maybe?
00:37:50 <oerjan> (as an ingredient.)
00:38:09 <fizzie> So it would likely be "EFnetissä", "Dalnetissa".
00:38:13 <quintopia> oerjan: i think maybe they were asking about the giant nested if statement, and possible replacements for it?
00:38:29 <int-e> mantissa, exponent
00:38:38 <oerjan> moon_: oh and -e looks useful too
00:38:51 <fizzie> And if someone is impolite enough to put vowel harmony mismatch already in the original word, we'd probably just get all confused.
00:39:06 <fizzie> (Mostly an issue with y.)
00:39:06 <oerjan> `` shuf -e -n 1 t e s t i n g
00:39:08 <HackEgo> t
00:39:26 <int-e> that was the most likely outcome!
00:39:36 <oerjan> `` `shuf -e -n 1 'echo hi' 'echo ho'`
00:39:36 <moon_> `` shuf -e -n 1 t e s t i n g
00:39:40 <HackEgo> ho
00:39:40 <HackEgo> t
00:39:42 <shachaf> Dälnetissä
00:39:48 <oerjan> moon_: ^
00:39:56 <moon_> kkthx
00:40:18 <int-e> `` for i in $(seq 1000); do shuf -e -n 1 t e s t i n g; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
00:40:31 <oerjan> int-e: a pun with "pouting" hth
00:40:41 <HackEgo> ​ 272 t \ 169 i \ 153 s \ 146 g \ 139 n \ 121 e
00:41:24 <moon_> Thanks
00:41:26 <oerjan> <quintopia> CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!!~~~~~ <-- with that, it feels hard not to make the CH a full trill hth
00:42:06 <quintopia> oerjan: go ahead. i do.
00:43:08 <int-e> oerjan: would you be pouting nonsense?
00:43:16 <oerjan> <shachaf> Your initial assumption was that it's on the other two? <-- i'd read somewhere that hebrew stress is usually on the last syllable, or something else i garbled into that.
00:43:19 * int-e is too tired to think of anything better than that.
00:43:51 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew_phonology#Stress hth
00:44:02 <quintopia> shachaf: whence did derogatory adjective "scow" originate? twh
00:44:12 <int-e> `? scow
00:44:15 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
00:44:16 <int-e> quintopia: scowling, I though
00:44:22 <shachaf> quintopia: It originated on a scow.
00:44:24 <int-e> t
00:44:27 <shachaf> Near Los Angeles.
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00:44:52 <int-e> `? shachaf
00:44:54 <HackEgo> Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
00:44:56 <quintopia> shachaf: by a passenger or crew?
00:45:05 <shachaf> Passenger.
00:45:08 <shachaf> s
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00:45:32 <int-e> hmm, that entry fails to mention the propensity to lie about etymology
00:45:43 <oerjan> <fizzie> And if someone is impolite enough to put vowel harmony mismatch already in the original word [...] <-- Ørjan feels targeted
00:45:55 <quintopia> shachaf: and how did you come to be the only other person in the universe to use it?
00:46:00 <shachaf> int-e: When have I lied about etymology?
00:46:09 <shachaf> quintopia: I'm not the only person in the universe to use it!
00:46:14 <shachaf> For example, oerjan uses it.
00:46:19 <shachaf> Being young and impressionable.
00:46:40 <shachaf> Other people also use it.
00:46:49 <quintopia> yes but i doubt he uses it anywhere but here, thereby not perpetrating it to the wider population
00:46:59 <oerjan> quintopia: i didn't see the if statement, but he did say "random".
00:47:11 <int-e> I can believe the lispy cow.
00:47:11 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, the ø alone is pretty weird, so.
00:47:15 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you speak English anywhere but here?
00:47:25 <quintopia> oerjan: oh i didn't see random. also you are far behind the present moment?
00:47:50 <shachaf> I don't think "scow" has a direct translation to Norwegian or German or any of oerjan's other languages.
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00:49:43 <int-e> oh when did dictionary.com add maps?
00:50:05 <int-e> e.g. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/scowl
00:50:08 <shachaf> I thought "dictionary" and "map" meant the same thing.
00:50:15 <shachaf> In Python, for example.
00:50:22 <quintopia> shachaf: map is something you do with dictionaries hth
00:52:01 <int-e> :t map
00:52:02 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
00:52:05 <int-e> :t dictionary
00:52:06 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘dictionary’
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01:03:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Do you speak English anywhere but here? <-- i'm only on two chat channels, really, and the other doesn't have much talk.
01:03:41 * oerjan waves to quintopia from the past
01:05:36 * oerjan returns briefly to the present, before running
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01:15:26 * oerjan notes that the section on /r/ in the article shachaf linked is inconsistent on whether israelis prefer velar or uvular.
01:16:00 <shachaf> oerjan: hey, i linked to the stress section hth
01:16:11 <shachaf> oerjan: Last I tried I can't distinguish velar and uvular fricatives.
01:16:59 <oerjan> i suppose you need an oscilloscope :P
01:17:30 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but i was thinking of something i wanted to check
01:19:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway those are voiced fricatives.
01:19:28 <shachaf> Of course the one in my name is unvoiced.
01:19:38 <oerjan> i figured.
01:22:00 <oerjan> apparently it's been discussed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Modern_Hebrew_phonology#Uvular_Fricative
01:22:55 <oerjan> "Perhaps they are supposed to be uvular, but this article is about what they actually are, which is velar in 80% of speakers according to Dekel (2014), who performed a statistical study to answer exactly this question."
01:23:14 <shachaf> I'm not actually sure what a velar fricative is.
01:23:39 <oerjan> shachaf: well it depends on where in your mouth your tongue is blocking...
01:23:39 <shachaf> I know what a uvula is.
01:23:49 <shachaf> But do I even have a vela?
01:24:16 <oerjan> well g and k are velar stops afaik
01:25:58 <oerjan> velum=soft palate, supposedly
01:26:26 <oerjan> although that's a pretty big region, isn't it.
01:28:41 <oerjan> and afaiu the discussion, "back velar" is hard to distinguish from uvular.
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01:34:06 * oerjan posts on the talk page
01:35:02 * shachaf wonders whether to bring up fixing the error in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language#Decidability_properties
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01:35:21 <oerjan> that's your job hth
01:35:23 <shachaf> It's a serious error, claiming that it's NP-complete when it's really coNP-complete.
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01:37:21 <moon_> got bored
01:37:31 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might have found a solution to the paradox of the stone, but it's pretty fucking stupid (and still can be broken)
01:37:33 <moon_> now im running something silly
01:37:44 <moon_> What is it?
01:38:07 <hppavilion[1]> God becomes more powerful as needed
01:38:18 <hppavilion[1]> So he creates a really heavy stone that he can't currently lift
01:38:27 <hppavilion[1]> But then when he needs to, he becomes stronger so he can lift it
01:38:50 <Phantom_Hoover> could he make a stone that he could never lift
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01:39:08 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: No.
01:39:10 <moon_> Certainly, just make it a unmoving object
01:39:13 <moon_> well
01:39:14 <moon_> hmm
01:39:22 <moon_> maybe not actually, depends on view point
01:39:33 <hppavilion[1]> Wait! Just use relativity!
01:39:35 -!- Cale has joined.
01:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> Could God make an argument so circular that even He couldn't believe it?
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01:39:55 <moon_> Hmm idunno
01:39:56 <hppavilion[1]> "Most of my arguments are elliptical"
01:40:41 <moon_> someone try telnetting to this silly server a few times: 76.1.72.128 5318
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01:44:30 <oerjan> shachaf: ok i didn't find the answer to what i was actually looking for, so i have to ask you: are hebrew t, p, k aspirated or not?
01:44:45 <shachaf> What's aspirated?
01:45:20 <oerjan> a small h sound at the end, essentially. english has it, except after s.
01:45:34 <oerjan> (as does norwegian.)
01:46:31 <oerjan> germanic languages tend to have aspirated unvoiced plosives, romance languages tend not to afaik.
01:46:48 <oerjan> and i've read somewhere that semitic languages can have aspiration...
01:47:34 <oerjan> (some languages, like ancient greek and standard chinese, distinguish stops _only_ with aspiration, not voicing.)
01:47:52 <oerjan> no wait
01:48:05 <oerjan> greek also has voicing - three way distinction.
01:51:35 <shachaf> I'm not sure.
01:51:41 <shachaf> Is it only at the end of a word or something?
01:52:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:52:21 <oerjan> it's mostly before a vowel.
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01:53:50 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant suggest testing it by holding your palm in front of your mouth to feel how much air there is.
01:53:55 <oerjan> *+s
01:54:30 <oerjan> (in english, there should be more with "pin" than with "bin".)
01:55:11 <shachaf> Wait, how do you pronounce "p" unaspirated?
01:55:41 <oerjan> take a "b" and just don't voice it, i think...
01:56:24 <oerjan> oh, also contrast "pin" vs. "spin", the latter should be unaspirated.
01:57:51 <oerjan> "Aspiration varies with place of articulation. The Spanish voiceless stops /p t k/ have voice-onset times (VOTs) of about 5, 10, and 30 milliseconds, whereas English aspirated /p t k/ have VOTs of about 60, 70, and 80 ms."
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02:03:38 <oerjan> "French,[5] Standard Dutch,[6] Tamil, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Modern Greek, and Latvian are languages that do not have aspirated consonants."
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02:05:33 * oerjan surprised about dutch
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02:14:42 <oerjan> huh the article used to use "spin" as the example, but someone changed it to "bin".
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02:24:04 <oerjan> huh the article used to use "spin" as the example, but someone changed it to "bin".
02:24:08 <oerjan> oops
02:24:21 <oerjan> Cale: *cough*
02:25:16 <Cale> sorry
02:25:28 <oerjan> turns out, shift-* on my keyboard is just next to up-return
02:25:32 <Cale> Was just sorting out something with my IRC client
02:25:50 <oerjan> ah. i was thinking you'd got into a bad cycle.
02:27:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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02:31:52 * oerjan wishes freenode didn't keep resetting the times on bans
02:32:09 <oerjan> we need elliott here to do a proper cleanup of the list :(
02:32:30 <oerjan> 69 bans left
02:33:20 <alercah> is elliott the only +F?
02:34:04 <alercah> ... apparently it's freenode-staff?!?
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02:37:00 <oerjan> alercah: elliott isn't an op, as he left and got deregistered. however, he was very good with cleaning up the ban list :P
02:37:26 <alercah> ahh
02:37:27 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i have all the authority, i just don't have the skill.
02:38:03 <oerjan> i think fizzie should be the founder but apparently freenode has a different policy :(
02:38:22 <oerjan> (he's the oldest op nick afaik)
02:38:24 <zzo38> Wikipedia is calling transitions of NFA that match an empty string as epsilon transitions, but a book I have is calling them as lambda transitions instead. Do you know why?
02:39:03 <alercah> I do not.
02:39:17 <alercah> but for what it's worth, I learned them as epsilon
02:39:28 <shachaf> zzo38: I never heard "lambda".
02:40:34 <shachaf> Haskell calls it \&
02:40:40 <zzo38> The book that is calling them lambda transitions is from 1988
02:41:02 <shachaf> Oh, I don't believe in books that were written before I was born.
02:41:19 <oerjan> anyway, because freenode resets the times on the ban list, and also adds new ones at either end, i'm pretty confused about which bans are old enough that they're safe to remove.
02:41:30 <shachaf> Why not generalize NFAs further?
02:41:42 <shachaf> If you allow epsilon transitions, why not allow transitions to be labeled with arbitrary strings?
02:43:09 <zzo38> That would be possible to do too yes, and then you can easily convert into the one that only allows up to one symbol.
02:43:12 <zzo38> (I think)
02:43:38 <oerjan> you can label them with arbitrary regexes hth
02:44:06 <zzo38> Yes you can do that too and then convert them.
02:44:09 <oerjan> also, the atoms of the regexes can be NFAs
02:44:23 <oerjan> and then you can add some turtles to taste
02:49:57 <zzo38> DFA can sometimes have many more states than the corresponding NFA. However DFA can also be made minimized. What will it be if a NFA has these restrictions: [1] A state can have no more than one epsilon transition leading out. [2] A state can have no more than one epsilon transition leading in. [3] It is not allowed to form a loop entirely of epsilon transitions.
02:51:00 <shachaf> What do you mean, what will it be?
02:54:16 <alercah> you can eliminate epsilon-transitions though
02:54:33 <shachaf> Right.
02:54:49 <shachaf> You can eliminate arbitrary string transitions, too.
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02:55:22 <moon_> 76.1.72.128, port 5318. i got bored and made this :P might keep it up just for the fun of it
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03:01:06 <zzo38> I don't know what it is, and I cannot seem to connect either
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03:03:52 <oerjan> `? chicken
03:03:58 <HackEgo> chicken is boily af
03:04:07 <zzo38> How can you convert into a minimum NFA that has the three restrictions I mentioned?
03:05:11 <shachaf> Why do you like those restrictions?
03:06:07 <zzo38> A parser I have designed has these restrictions.
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04:16:48 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is Strindberg
04:17:06 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Strindberg
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07:00:39 <[ctcp-for-yell]> Network went crazy
07:00:41 <[ctcp-for-yell]> srry
07:01:39 <zzo38> Can any computer printer support printing in invisible ink as well as black?
07:02:22 <[ctcp-for-yell]> No idea lol
07:02:56 <zzo38> I intend to make the FreeUHS "print" program to support an option to tell it what specials (if any) to use to tell it to select or deselect invisible ink, so that if this option is used, then you can print the contents of the hints in invisible ink.
07:04:01 <zzo38> (Such a program can be implemented even if no such thing currently exists, because when it does exist, then that option can be used.)
07:05:32 <zzo38> Another thing that can be put is to cover up the text and then you can scratch it off in order to read it (like some lottery cards).
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07:13:50 <[ctcp-for-yell]> i wonder what would happen if i fed a ethernet switch 2.5v through the data lines, no ossilation or changes
07:18:10 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
07:19:59 <pikhq> [ctcp-for-yell]: If you're applying 2.5v on a *pair*, rather than individual parts of the pair? Not much.
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07:21:11 <pikhq> A similar (but fairly carefully specified) scheme is used in Power over Ethernet.
07:21:44 <[ctcp-for-yell]> would 2.5v ac do damage?
07:21:55 <pikhq> 2.5V AC would probably ruin the signal.
07:22:24 <[ctcp-for-yell]> 120v ac?
07:24:11 <pikhq> 120V AC would likely ruin the signal, possibly the cable as well, and might ruin the opto-isolator in the Ethernet switch.
07:24:37 <[ctcp-for-yell]> I was hoping it'd start it on fire :
07:24:54 <[ctcp-for-yell]> ok, neon transformer hooked to it lol
07:25:04 <pikhq> (though I *think* the opto-isolator is actually rated for a couple kV?)
07:25:15 <pikhq> Arc through the insulation on the cable.
07:25:31 <[ctcp-for-yell]> Ruin everythin
07:25:35 <[ctcp-for-yell]> ?
07:25:51 <pikhq> Wouldn't even reach the switch, it'd be arcing pretty close to where you hook the cable up.
07:26:52 <pikhq> If you want to have a good guarantee of destroying a switch you'd need to basically connect all of its contacts up to a Tesla coil or a beefy capacitor bank or something.
07:27:12 <[ctcp-for-yell]> Someone already said that in ##chat
07:28:42 <pikhq> One of the nice things about Ethernet is it's designed to be pretty robust to people screwing it up, from a physical or electrical point-of-view...
07:29:04 <pikhq> Your most likely failure cases are just gonna make the network stop working, not cause lasting damage to equipment on the network.
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07:37:21 <orin> [ctcp-for-yell]: if you really want to screw up a network switch, try to make a virus
07:37:47 <orin> there are probably already viruses that pread over ethernet
07:38:02 <[ctcp-for-yell]> on outdated switches a socket into socket cable works sometimes
07:38:46 <pikhq> That'll screw up the network it's attached to, not the switch itself (permanently). :)
07:39:39 <[ctcp-for-yell]> Ik
07:39:54 <[ctcp-for-yell]> works on stupid it/big server tho
07:41:02 <[ctcp-for-yell]> It also works on my home netwrk :P
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07:46:39 <Jafet> it's somewhat unlikely that a mains AC waveform will be decoded as a valid ethernet frame
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07:50:25 <pikhq> Jafet: Yes, but it will likely corrupt any Ethernet frames going over the cable.
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07:55:45 <Jafet> even at 60 Hz? an ethernet frame is much smaller than 1/60s.
07:56:03 <izabera> https://devnull-as-a-service.com/
07:56:06 <moon__> They will collide
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07:58:24 <farrioth> Jafet: Whatever you're doing, it sounds like a bad idea...
07:58:43 <pikhq> Jafet: I dunno, I'd be worried about it considering it's adding a 50/60 Hz 120V waveform to a 2.5V AC signal.
07:59:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
07:59:17 <pikhq> ... That said it probably shouldn't do much more than be noise.
08:00:19 <hppavilion[1]> www.name.tld: the domain of the tribush
08:01:05 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, this is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Bush is _not_ a redirect
08:01:32 <izabera> where did you expect it to redirect?
08:02:19 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Well, "Jeb" isn't Jeb Bush's name
08:02:26 <hppavilion[1]> Jeb = John Ellis Bush
08:02:42 <izabera> maybe he should change it
08:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah
08:02:52 <izabera> wikipedia says so
08:13:13 <lifthrasiir> Jebush
08:13:36 <izabera> je suis bush
08:13:52 <lifthrasiir> ...somehow sounds like ambush, so I've immediately discarded the idea
08:15:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: iirc wikipedia policy is to usually name articles what most people call the subject.
08:16:45 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump <- why is this not called big fat racist?
08:22:24 <Jafet> (is it worse to be a big fat racist, or to be a miserable failure?)
08:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Trump isn't yet qualified as a miserable failure, because he is yet to be president
08:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure whether Trump's wikipedia article (see: http://loser.com/) is biased
08:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like it is, but then again, I'm biased
08:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> "Trump is a strong proponent of law and order. He has suggested a temporary suspension of immigration to the United States from nations having a "proven history" of terrorism against the U.S. until more precise vetting techniques can be put in place to screen out potential terrorists; he also believes that the quick defeat of ISIS is mandatory."
08:31:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's a little incorrect, because it's not so much nations with that history as it is muslims
08:32:31 <hppavilion[1]> Whether or not they have that history
09:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> When the ratio of illegitimate births in comparison to the number of total births is high, the number of mustaches within the population drops
09:07:11 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently
09:08:00 -!- augur has joined.
09:13:09 <myname> maybe they get killed by husbands
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09:24:25 <b_jonas> This one is mostly for the logs: my vacation to Sweden and Norway starts on 2016-08-05 and ends on 2016-08-17, I'll be barely available during that time. I probably won't be on the internet, or only a little. I might not even be reading email much. For urgent problems, try phone call and SMS, or call my family.
09:25:09 <izabera> i'll just send you an owl like every normal person
09:26:07 <shachaf> b_jonas: How can I reach your family?
09:27:05 -!- Zekka has joined.
09:29:56 <izabera> creep
09:30:58 <myname> lol
09:31:02 <shachaf> Do you think that's justified?
09:34:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: if you're a co-worker or family or other person who should know, ask me privately and I can give email and phone number of them
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09:35:25 <b_jonas> or you might already know
09:35:26 <shachaf> Ah, I didn't realize those folks were in here.
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09:36:33 <b_jonas> they aren't, probably
09:36:44 <b_jonas> so if you're here, then you probably won't want to reach me for anything urgent
09:37:01 <b_jonas> but it's hard to tell anything for sure, especially about people reading a public log
09:37:31 <b_jonas> and besides, if you want to meet me, and ask nicely in private, I can probably give my phone number (even if not my family's)
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09:40:25 <b_jonas> (mind you, it's probably not that hard to find a contact for my family on the internet, since some of them has the same last name as me)
09:40:38 <shachaf> But I've forgotten your last name.
09:40:42 <shachaf> Though it's somewhere in the logs.
09:41:09 <shachaf> Ah, and also on the Internet.
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09:42:11 <b_jonas> it's on the internet, yes
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10:46:08 <fizzie> I should probably set up a pager for urgent esolangs.org matters.
10:57:45 <izabera> what happened this time?
10:58:29 <fizzie> Nothing, just musing.
10:58:46 <fizzie> Inspired by b_jonas' announcement above.
10:59:50 <FireFly> b_jonas: enjoy your vacation
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11:07:32 <shachaf> you should HireFly to handle the pages
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11:23:37 <int-e> oh Faraday cage news... fun.
11:24:08 <int-e> `` (cd wisdom; grep -ri faraday .)
11:24:33 <HackEgo> No output.
11:26:17 <ybden> `grep -ri cage wisdom
11:27:03 <HackEgo> grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
11:27:14 <ybden> is it ``?
11:27:18 <ybden> ``grep -ri cage wisdom
11:27:25 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `grep: not found
11:27:27 <ybden> HackEgo: you are being very slow
11:27:41 <ybden> `` grep -ri cage wisdom
11:28:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/boxmodel:boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be.
11:29:05 <gamemanj> "Taneb's cage"?
11:29:27 <gamemanj> I'm not sure people like cages. IDK. Is Taneb a cage collector?
11:29:39 <int-e> is to to protect Taneb or to protect the other people?
11:30:47 <gamemanj> It's obviously to protect Taneb. If we had to protect the other people, well,
11:30:51 <gamemanj> that would be impossible anyway.
11:30:57 <gamemanj> `? tanebventions
11:31:03 <FireFly> Obviously Taneb's cage is a tanebvention
11:31:17 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
11:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> `? tanebventions: math
11:31:36 <gamemanj> You'd have to somehow protect people from the BBC.
11:31:37 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
11:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn tanebventions: linguistics//Linguistic tanebventions include [...]
11:32:15 <HackEgo> Learned «tanebventions: linguistics»
11:32:42 <gamemanj> the common comma
11:32:49 <gamemanj> (now falling out of style)
11:33:10 <int-e> HackEgo: huh?
11:33:21 <int-e> `? tanebventions: linguistics
11:33:25 <HackEgo> ​/Linguistic tanebventions include [...]
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11:35:02 <int-e> `revert
11:35:05 <ybden> oops
11:35:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:35:32 <ybden> how does learn/le\rn work?
11:35:36 <ybden> er
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11:35:40 <ybden> learn and le/rn
11:36:06 <FireFly> (Normally)
11:36:07 <int-e> there's le//rn as well
11:36:23 <ybden> was le//rn meant to be used instead?
11:36:28 <int-e> (it's magical)
11:36:37 <int-e> ybden: maybe!
11:37:05 <gamemanj> what about le///rn
11:37:19 <int-e> `cat bin/slashlearn
11:37:30 <gamemanj> or le/s/ignorance/truth/g/rn
11:37:33 <HackEgo> sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb «$key»"
11:38:33 <FireFly> Pretty sure you mean strength
11:41:37 <b_jonas> The old musing at https://cr.yp.to/djbdns/ipv6mess.html from 2002 is still fucking completely true.
11:43:33 <boily> @massages-loud
11:43:33 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
11:44:26 <int-e> boily: have you seen http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2900/fv02843.htm?
11:45:42 -!- int-e has left ("PANICKED CHICKEN").
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11:45:51 <boily> int-ello. I'm not a chicken and I don't look like a chicken >_>'... <_<;...
11:46:01 <boily> I'm a sane man!
11:46:22 <int-e> `? mad
11:46:25 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
11:46:27 <int-e> :-/
11:46:47 <b_jonas> `? sarlacc
11:46:49 <HackEgo> sarlacc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:48:06 <boily> int-e: the old version is still there in the PDF hth
11:48:07 <int-e> I wonder how many other people out there prefer the canine version of FreeFall to the colorized one.
11:48:48 <gamemanj> "canine version of FreeFall"???
11:49:08 <ybden> `? `
11:49:10 <HackEgo> ​` is the prefix to greatness.
11:49:11 <int-e> gamemanj: alluding to lack of color vision.
11:49:14 <ybden> `? ``
11:49:16 <HackEgo> ​``? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:49:22 <ybden> `? ?
11:49:26 <HackEgo> ​? is wisdom
11:49:31 <ybden> Excellent.
11:49:43 <ybden> `which cat
11:49:46 <HackEgo> ​/bin/cat
11:49:50 <ybden> Ah, that cat
11:49:54 <ybden> `which `
11:49:54 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`
11:50:09 <ybden> `cat bin/`
11:50:10 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
11:50:25 <ybden> `? rnooodl
11:50:26 <HackEgo> rnooodl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:50:34 <ybden> `rnooodl
11:50:47 <ybden> `cat bin/rnooodl
11:50:49 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
11:50:53 <ybden> uh
11:50:54 <int-e> `` echo noodle
11:50:56 <HackEgo> noodle
11:51:04 <int-e> `` echo nooodle
11:51:04 <HackEgo> No output.
11:51:05 <HackEgo> noooooodle
11:51:15 <ybden> :D
11:51:20 <ybden> oh, I see
11:51:25 <ybden> I misread the pipe as a \
11:52:44 <ybden> `echo noooooodle
11:52:46 <HackEgo> noooooodle
11:52:49 <ybden> hm
11:57:49 <int-e> `? nooodle
11:57:51 <HackEgo> Nooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
12:03:09 <int-e> . o O ( s/ancestor/creator/ )
12:04:00 * ybden . o O ( Taneb created Taneb )
12:04:32 <int-e> among other people
12:06:48 -!- int-e has set topic: Refrigerator | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
12:23:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GLOVED CHICKEN).
12:32:37 <b_jonas> `? pokemon
12:32:54 <HackEgo> A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket.
12:34:18 <b_jonas> `? p-speed
12:34:19 <HackEgo> p-speed? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:50:53 <ybden> `? mario
12:50:56 <HackEgo> Mario is a classic PSPACE-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
12:51:01 <ybden> `? pspace
12:51:02 <HackEgo> pspace? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:10 <ybden> `? pspace-complete
12:51:14 <HackEgo> pspace-complete? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:18 <ybden> `? completionist
12:51:19 <HackEgo> completionist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:21 <ybden> `? complete
12:51:23 <HackEgo> complete? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:25 <ybden> `? completion
12:51:27 <HackEgo> completion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:28 <ybden> `? pocket
12:51:30 <HackEgo> pocket? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:32 <ybden> `? nintendo
12:51:33 <HackEgo> nintendo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:39 <ybden> *sigh*
12:51:43 <ybden> `? problem
12:51:44 <HackEgo> problem? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:48 <ybden> `? solution
12:51:49 <HackEgo> solution? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:52 <ybden> `? solvent
12:51:53 <HackEgo> solvent? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:51:57 <ybden> `? monster
12:51:58 <HackEgo> monster? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:52:01 * ybden stops spamming
12:56:34 <ybden> `? do not put the baby
12:56:35 <HackEgo> do not put the baby? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:56:39 <ybden> `? baby
12:56:40 <HackEgo> baby? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:56:43 <ybden> `? babies
12:56:44 <HackEgo> babies? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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13:34:23 <int-e> wee I have an OEIS wiki account...
13:34:31 <int-e> ...now what shall I do with it
13:43:33 <ybden> `? wiki
13:43:36 <HackEgo> The wiki is at http://esolangs.org/wiki
13:43:42 <ybden> `? oeis
13:43:43 <HackEgo> oeis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:43:55 <int-e> @google oeis
13:43:56 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/
13:44:59 <ybden> Oh, that
13:45:02 <ybden> hehe
13:45:59 <alercah> I think I want a new terminal emulator
13:46:15 <alercah> urxvt is okay but configuring it is literally the worst
13:46:51 <b_jonas> alercah: what? what's so hard in configuring it? I just have a script that starts it with the right command-line arguments and it works that way
13:47:09 <b_jonas> (except for that one mysterious bug that took days to debug, but that was ages ago)
13:51:48 <alercah> b_jonas: setting e.g. the font requires arcane invocations in .Xresources
13:51:54 <alercah> and it *sucks* at fonts
13:52:19 <alercah> it can't render the font I like correctly at the size I like
13:52:31 <alercah> and in general it sucks at picking font sizes
13:55:30 <b_jonas> alercah: no, I don't need to put anything in X resources
13:55:43 <b_jonas> unlike with xterm, I can give ANY setting in the command line for urxvt
13:55:50 <b_jonas> (or any setting in xresources if you prefer that)
13:56:32 <b_jonas> I put everything in the command line, but putting everything in xresources and perhaps just putting a -name in the command line to choose from multiple configs could work just as well
13:57:46 <alercah> fair enough, still doesn't solve the problem that a) the configs are arcane b) font config just doesn't work period
13:58:10 <feliks> alercah: how does it 'not work'?
13:58:46 <alercah> feliks: with the font I'm using for instance
13:58:57 <alercah> height 12 pixels is the same as height 13 pixels, which is too small
13:59:07 <alercah> height 14 pixels is good, but underscores don't render
13:59:13 <alercah> height 15 pixels is too big
13:59:40 <feliks> what do you use for font rendering?
13:59:49 <alercah> urxvt...
14:00:12 <feliks> no i mean systems wide. you're not into infinality are you?
14:00:31 <alercah> I'm doing nothing special
14:00:56 <feliks> what font are you using then?
14:01:01 <alercah> Droid Sans Mono
14:01:28 <feliks> what a coincidence :)
14:01:51 <feliks> how does your .Xresources/.Xdefaults line look like?
14:02:56 <feliks> you could try:
14:03:05 <feliks> URxvt.font: xft:Droid Sans Mono:pixelsize=13:antialias=true:hinting=true
14:04:06 <alercah> also dynamic reconfiguration of settings is the *worst*
14:04:22 <alercah> now it's even smaller O_o
14:05:09 <alercah> if I set it to 14, it's back to the correct size but underscores are still invisible
14:05:36 <feliks> so is that what you wanted?
14:05:39 <alercah> no
14:05:49 <alercah> I want the size it's currently at with underscores actually rendering
14:05:55 <alercah> which appears to be too much to ask
14:06:48 <alercah> I also consider the fact that the only way to dynamically change a setting, near as I can tell, is to bind a keyboard shortcut to a command to do so to be a major anti-feature
14:06:58 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:07:57 <feliks> you could have a look at your freetype config
14:08:50 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
14:08:55 <alercah> or I could switch to a better terminal emulator?
14:09:56 <feliks> whatever floats your boat
14:11:00 <alercah> I don't want to mess around with ridiculous arcane configs for hours trying to solve what is a super easy problem in other terminal emulators
14:17:16 <izabera> halp meh
14:17:19 <izabera> if (flags == O_TMPFILE) write(1, "TEMP!!!", 7);
14:17:21 <izabera> if ((fd = open(template, flags | O_RDWR | O_CREAT | O_EXCL, 0600)) != -1) return fd;
14:17:32 <izabera> these two lines produce this in strace
14:17:35 <izabera> write(1, "TEMP!!!", 7TEMP!!!) = 7
14:17:36 <izabera> open("/tmp/hYnyMH", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL|O_DIRECTORY|O_TMPFILE, 0600) = -1 EINVAL (Invalid argument)
14:17:56 <izabera> why is O_DIRECTORY there?
14:27:14 <izabera> i see, the pathname must specify a directory
14:27:20 <izabera> so i guess glibc is adding that
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14:38:25 <myname> what was the closed fibonacci in haskell?
14:38:53 <Taneb> > scanl1 (+) [1..] -- ??
14:38:55 <lambdabot> [1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,276...
14:39:00 <Taneb> myname, not that
14:39:20 <myname> well, yeah
14:39:50 <Taneb> What do you mean by closed?
14:40:15 <myname> as in: working as anonymous function
14:40:45 <myname> without fix perfectly
14:41:59 <Taneb> Yeah, I think I know the one...
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14:43:26 <Taneb> Just can't get it
14:43:31 <Taneb> Aaargh, this is annoying me
14:44:58 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
14:44:59 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
14:45:09 <Jafet> > iterate (\(a, b) -> (b, a+b)) (0, 1)
14:45:11 <lambdabot> [(0,1),(1,1),(1,2),(2,3),(3,5),(5,8),(8,13),(13,21),(21,34),(34,55),(55,89),...
14:45:39 <int-e> (I think I invented that one, but at the very least I discovered it independently :P)
14:46:53 <b_jonas> `? potato
14:46:56 <b_jonas> `? potatoe
14:47:03 <HackEgo> potatoe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:47:03 <HackEgo> potato? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:47:47 <myname> does it work without fix?
14:48:04 <myname> iterate is kinda lame
14:48:35 <b_jonas> hmm, I wonder if I should put the entry to potato or to potatoes
14:49:13 <Taneb> b_jonas, follow your heart
14:50:10 <b_jonas> `slashlearn potatoes/You are not allowed to take potatoes to Norway without a special permit.
14:50:15 <HackEgo> Learned «potatoes»
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14:55:54 <Jafet> > map (\n -> read . take n . drop (n*(n-1)+1) . show $ 1000^n^2 `div` (100^n - 10^n - 1) :: Int) [1..]
14:55:56 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1771...
14:57:13 <int-e> yes, ouch.
14:59:26 <Jafet> but take and drop are typically defined using fix...
14:59:32 <Jafet> > map (\n -> 1000^n^2 `div` (100^n - 10^n - 1) `div` 100^n^2 `mod` 10^n) [1..]
14:59:33 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
15:01:52 <int-e> `rm canary
15:01:56 <HackEgo> No output.
15:02:14 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/tan*:*
15:02:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: linguistics wisdom/tanebventions: math
15:02:45 <hppavilion[1]> xk3d+hoverboard
15:02:47 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/tan*:*s
15:02:50 <HackEgo> No output.
15:04:12 <int-e> (my revert earlier failed)
15:04:43 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: ;-;
15:09:10 * hppavilion[1] casually awaits OSX Housecat
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15:17:47 <gamemanj> `? RAR
15:17:48 <HackEgo> RAR? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:18:35 <gamemanj> I'd write "`learn RAR is a legal headache waiting to happen for whoever has to embed support for it into their application due to an obscure 'tradition' of MMD model makers" but that wouldn't really be in the spirit of wisdom.
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15:19:16 <Jafet> ` cat canary # eep, a puddytat
15:19:18 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
15:19:29 <Jafet> `` cat canary
15:19:29 <HackEgo> No output.
15:19:54 <int-e> hmm, I don't know why it's empty.
15:20:43 <int-e> `` ls -la canary
15:20:45 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Aug 2 14:02 canary
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15:22:39 <int-e> `` echo -n ribbit > canary
15:22:42 <HackEgo> No output.
15:25:50 <int-e> ah. http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/ae8c2e353600/canary may be the explanation
15:50:37 <bauen1> `echo ":)"
15:50:38 <HackEgo> ​":)"
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16:07:07 <b_jonas> Ah! I got an answer to my question from more than a week ago
16:07:10 <b_jonas> it was whiskey
16:08:14 <b_jonas> almost a month ago, actually
16:08:37 <int-e> this sounds like a useful bit of information
16:08:54 <int-e> (Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot)
16:12:03 <b_jonas> int-e: I asked what drink Faye bought, because it's unclear from http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3257 and the previous few strips
16:13:06 <int-e> Oh. I think I would've known that.
16:13:24 <b_jonas> It's probably in the logs
16:13:30 <b_jonas> someone gave guesses I think
16:13:38 <b_jonas> let me check how accurate they were and who won
16:15:15 <b_jonas> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.07.05
16:17:07 <int-e> b_jonas: okay I didn't know... I just assumed by color.
16:17:53 <int-e> and from the context it had to be something strong
16:19:13 <int-e> so what's the regular pentagon doing?
16:19:30 <b_jonas> int-e: I didn't think much about it recently
16:19:40 <b_jonas> I have to prepare for the vacation, which takes most of my remaining time
16:19:49 <b_jonas> (together with work and other usual stuff)
16:20:01 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm just asking because I brought up that game the same say as you asked the question about QC
16:20:02 <b_jonas> that's why I found out that you can't take potatoes to Norway
16:20:27 <b_jonas> (and you're recommended to take a passport, which is less surprising)
16:22:19 <int-e> oh, today's 5th panel would be... "That didn't occur to me, please hold the fort while I take care of those bastards."
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17:47:21 <alercah> `le/rn nundrum/A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless.
17:47:25 <HackEgo> Learned «nundrum»
18:20:14 <myname> lol
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21:21:29 <wob_jonas> damn
21:21:49 <wob_jonas> I brought up my huge bag from the basement so I can pack in it for travel
21:21:59 <wob_jonas> I thought it was just some dust or paint on it
21:22:09 <wob_jonas> but in the light it turns out there's actually MOLD GROWING ON IT
21:30:33 <alercah> welp
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21:38:35 <orin> wob_jonas: buy a new suitcase
21:38:52 <orin> and dispose of the old one by fire
21:41:13 <S1> Buy new mold. That one has a bag on it. Eww.
21:43:56 <wob_jonas> I think it could grow because the basement has barely any air circulation
21:47:11 <orin> how does traffic change orientation in the chunnel
21:47:29 <orin> is there a helix that switches the left and the right?
21:47:59 <shachaf> driving on the left side of the road makes no sense
21:48:08 <shachaf> neither does writing from the left side of the page
21:48:44 <orin> I prefer writing downward
21:49:05 <myname> are there pathfinder nerds in here?
21:49:17 <orin> the space probe?
21:49:19 <shachaf> In the other channel the other day I was talking about the old puzzle of why mirrors flip things left-to-right.
21:49:36 <myname> the role playing game system
21:49:51 <orin> shachaf: they flip things front to back, not left to right?
21:50:02 <shachaf> That answer is correct but incomplete.
21:50:46 <orin> and your mirror self writes with the opposite hand
21:50:58 <shachaf> Only on opposite day.
21:51:13 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I dunno, but I also don't understand why some mirrors zoom and distract your face. people keep using those, but those are confusing and I hate them.
21:51:26 <wob_jonas> I use only non-zooming flat mirrors which don't distort
21:51:26 <shachaf> Do you mean distort?
21:51:29 <wob_jonas> distort, yes
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21:52:17 <orin> wob_jonas: it's for magnifying the blemishes on your face and allowing you to obsess oover them
21:52:27 <shachaf> I don't mind distorting mirrors.
21:52:34 <shachaf> My face is already distorted in the opposite way.
21:52:35 <wob_jonas> and in the bathroom I have two cupboards with mirror on the door, so basically I have two movable mirrors that let me look at even the back of my face, even without flipping left and right,
21:52:43 <shachaf> So they're the only way to see myself as I truly am.
21:52:51 <wob_jonas> plus I have a handheld mirror for when it helps.
21:52:58 <shachaf> I never look at mirrors.
21:53:06 <shachaf> I also don't get photographed.
21:53:22 <wob_jonas> I don't look *at* the mirror (except when cleaning it). I look *through* it to my face or body or clothes.
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22:18:09 <moon___> wob_jonas: do you remember how you connected your bot to DOS 6.22?
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22:18:25 <moon___> im trying to write a experiement that connects to DOS 6.22 :P
22:18:30 <wob_jonas> moon__: sure
22:18:33 <moon___> Using the virtualbox Serial
22:18:50 <wob_jonas> I won't start it up now, but I can answer questions
22:18:54 <moon___> ik
22:19:24 <moon___> how'd you connect it to the Bot, and what language (the language is just so i can judge how hard it would be in js, which im using)
22:20:33 <wob_jonas> moon__: I connect to the virtual machine's serial connection, which DOS lets you use as the terminal for all programs that access stdin and stdout.
22:21:21 <wob_jonas> The bochs emulator exposes this serial terminal by connecting it to... I don't quite remember, probably the master side of a pty terminal?
22:21:33 <moon___> and how did you set up the serial connection? i know that DOS can use ctty to connect to COM
22:22:31 <wob_jonas> Yes, I used the ctty command to redirect stdin and stdout and stderr there, and I used a command-line program from norton utilities to set the parameters of the serial connection from DOS, although I think you can also use DOS's MODE COM command for that
22:22:59 <wob_jonas> The mode matters only partly, because I think bochs actually lets data through it faster than a real serial terminal hardware would permit.
22:23:20 <wob_jonas> So the mode might actually be mostly ignored, except perhaps the number of bits per character.
22:23:58 <wob_jonas> let me see http://bochs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/topper.pl?name=New+Bochs+Documentation&url=http://bochs.sourceforge.net/doc/docbook
22:24:05 <moon___> im using virtualbox >_>
22:24:11 <moon___> Hmm
22:24:15 <moon___> Ill figure it out eventually
22:24:18 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure which mode I used, the socket or the pty
22:24:23 <wob_jonas> probably the socket, that's easier to set up
22:24:34 <wob_jonas> moon__: I think virtualbox can also expose the serial terminal to you somehow
22:25:24 <wob_jonas> no, I must have used the pty mode
22:27:56 <wob_jonas> no, checking the source code, it turns out I actually used the socket mode
22:28:56 <moon___> hmm, virtualbox doesnt like me with sockets
22:29:31 <wob_jonas> but don't take this as good practice
22:29:39 <wob_jonas> my script is old and half-broken anyway
22:29:41 <moon___> ik
22:29:42 <moon___> :P
22:29:52 <wob_jonas> if I were to want something like this seriously, then I'd have to rewrite the whole thing properly
22:29:59 <moon___> the port im using is closed, to prevent possible, well, unmonitered dos invasions :P
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23:17:03 <moon___> wob_jonas: a single DOS image would work on multiple platforms for bochs, right?
23:17:19 <moon___> if so, can i have a copy of your DOS image? im too lazy to make one on windows :P
23:20:35 <wob_jonas> moon__: what do you mean multiple platforms?
23:21:19 <wob_jonas> I won't give you the whole DOS image, it has a whole lot of various software with unclear copyright status. I can give you parts of it if you want.
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23:21:58 <moon___> i only need the boot
23:22:00 <moon___> :P
23:22:05 <wob_jonas> that's easier
23:22:25 <moon___> oh wait dont i need a config too? lol, ill adjust it as needed
23:23:06 <wob_jonas> let me see
23:23:55 <moon___> Hey, why is the word 'Refrigerator' in the topic?
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23:24:49 <wob_jonas> moon__: please wait a minute
23:24:53 <wob_jonas> or five minutes
23:25:15 <moon___> kk
23:25:23 <moon___> I can wait all day :P
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23:32:55 <wob_jonas> moon__: can you give an email address (in private message) I can send it to?
23:33:17 <wob_jonas> I'll send you my fancy full-featured dos boot floppy, which I used a lot
23:34:19 <wob_jonas> it still has a lot of software with unclear copyright status (including some of norton utilities and norton commander, some of turbo pascal, some of DOS itself, etc), but it's at least less than the whole image
23:34:28 <boily> mhelloon__, wellob_jellonas.
23:34:42 <moon___> If someone pops up to cause issues, i can remove it
23:34:53 <wob_jonas> pity it doesn't have the one useful utility on the image of which the copyright status is clear, my DOS version of the joe editor, whcih I can give separately if you want
23:34:54 <moon___> Obviously (;
23:35:12 <moon___> Please do :P
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23:47:01 <moon___> pc decided to die on me
23:47:13 <izabera> RIP
23:48:10 <moon___> :P
23:54:57 <moon___> wob_jonas: im impatient, is it uploading?
23:56:04 <wob_jonas> moon__: sending it now
23:56:08 <wob_jonas> I was just writing an editor
23:56:10 <wob_jonas> um
23:56:13 <wob_jonas> writing a description
23:56:21 <wob_jonas> if you need the joe-editor, I can send that separately
23:56:30 <wob_jonas> although it's hard to use because my config file for DOS is crap
23:57:39 <moon___> does it work for noninteractive, thats my big question (Yup, doing a thing)
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23:58:05 <wob_jonas> moon__: not alone, you'll need more of DOS to set up that
23:58:11 <wob_jonas> moon__: like, you need ctty probably
23:58:16 <wob_jonas> this mostly has interactive utilities
23:58:39 <moon___> doesnt DOS have ctty by default?
23:59:22 <moon___> also, why did you never writeprotect the boot drive?
23:59:31 <moon___> on your bot
23:59:39 <wob_jonas> moon__: so that you can tinker with it
23:59:40 <moon___> remember we formatted C:\?
23:59:43 <wob_jonas> I can restore it easily
23:59:59 <wob_jonas> come on, the whole purpose of the bot was to be a sandbox you can break
2016-08-03
00:00:05 <moon___> True enough
00:00:06 <moon___> :P
00:00:12 <wob_jonas> you can even rewrite autoexec so it does something different next time you boot, or boot linux
00:00:26 <wob_jonas> mind you, you could just boot linux from a user disk with a command after booting
00:00:29 <wob_jonas> so you don't really need that
00:00:31 <wob_jonas> but this way is better
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00:02:50 <moon___> actually, is it possible to use the DLX image bochs comes with over the serial port?
00:09:08 <moon___> i'd seriously like the compilers too you know :P, could that come as one last package?
00:09:20 <wob_jonas> what's DLX?
00:09:44 <moon___> Extremely minimal linux, comes with bochs (at least it did for me)
00:10:09 <wob_jonas> you can use linux from serial console much better than dos
00:10:33 <moon___> Ik, how would i do that with DLX tho? :P
00:10:58 <wob_jonas> lots of dos programs use the console and keyboard directly (even for just speed, when they wouldn't need to strictly speaking), but linux programs don't do that, they work fine in a virtual terminal that you control from serial terminal
00:11:11 <moon___> the DLX linux is the bochs demo
00:12:27 <wob_jonas> moon__: ask the linux guys. you probably have to make init spawn gettys on the serial terminal, do some config, and optionally also put the console (boot time and later debug messages and stdio for early userland boot script stuff) to the serial terminal,
00:12:36 <wob_jonas> and optionally put the console for the boot loader to serial terminal.
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00:16:51 <wob_jonas> moon__: I'm unlikely to send you the whole turbo pascal and borland C distributions, or all of dos or its installer, or all of norton utilities or its installer, or all of norton commander or its installer, or the windows or winword or excel installers. I have them, but I probably won't distribute them.
00:16:55 <wob_jonas> get them from somewhere else.
00:17:00 <moon___> kk
00:17:11 <wob_jonas> I think you can find the turbo pascal and borland C somewhere on the internet
00:17:25 <wob_jonas> finding hungarian version of excel 5 might be more difficult
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00:20:28 <wob_jonas> this stuff isn't even big. I have all the dos stuff on a one gigabyte large image of which about 25% is free space, and it includes all the above and more, and is quite close to what I had on my first computer back when I had 2 decimal gigabytes of hard disk, \
00:21:04 <fizzie> You used to be able to find all that stuff on abandonware sites no problem. Well, maybe not the Hungarian Excel.
00:21:09 <wob_jonas> omitting the linux install on a 850 megabyte partition (to which I had to install and uninstall programs to make them fit because I didn't know what I could safely remove), and omitting the minimal windows 95 install that's on a 50 megabyte sized compressed partition and boots from a floppy. I had no easy way to backup at that point, because hdd or
00:21:09 <wob_jonas> cd burners were expensive.
00:21:41 <wob_jonas> so basically all my useful dos stuff is about 750 megabytes, including installers and games,
00:22:05 <wob_jonas> plus there's a few hundred megabytes (mostly some games) I've lost permanently from a hard disk failure earlier.
00:24:07 <wob_jonas> there's a lot of small old software in there
00:24:32 <izabera> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/711770/fast-implementation-of-rolling-hash am i reading this correctly? they say to compute hash1 = [0]*base^(n-1) + [1]*base^(n-2) + ... + [n-1] but they always multiply by the same number?
00:25:16 * izabera isn't sure because 12 people thought it's correct
00:25:21 <fizzie> I keep a 'dos' directory that I had on a computer, it's full of random silly little programs from the era where I went "well C:\DOS is in PATH so I'll just stick stuff there".
00:25:42 <wob_jonas> fizzie: that's one of the things I cleaned up properly back on dos
00:25:55 <wob_jonas> I made a C:\PATH directory for all the miscellania I run
00:27:13 <fizzie> I never managed.
00:27:44 <fizzie> Which makes no sense, because I did set PATH.
00:28:02 <fizzie> Although I'm pretty sure this autoexec.bat I'm looking at is not mine.
00:28:37 <fizzie> Or, huh. Maybe it is.
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00:29:06 <wob_jonas> so the path contains C:\PATH;C:\DOS;C:\NC;C:\NU;C:\WINDOWS;C:\BC\BIN;C:\TP\BIN;C:\NAV
00:29:13 <wob_jonas> it varied a bit, but that's basically it
00:29:16 <fizzie> I remember some things (like these goto %config% target labels), but some of them seem really off.
00:29:57 <fizzie> This PATH contains C:\BC45\BIN;C:\IEXPLORE;C:\ANIPAINT;C:\CPQDOS;C:\;C:\DOS;C:\WINDOWS;C:\MOUSE;C:\SB16;C:\PGP;C:\SE;C:\MCAFEE;C:\PMAIL;c:\cdtsr but I'm... a bit suspicious.
00:30:32 <wob_jonas> I see
00:30:56 <fizzie> (I don't know what all that stuff even is.)
00:32:04 <fizzie> I do remember using 4dos a lot.
00:32:26 <shachaf> i remember borland turbo-c
00:32:29 <shachaf> it was tg
00:32:34 <wob_jonas> C:\PATH contains the joe editor, mouse, the more frequently used compressors (pkzip, pkunzip, arj, rar), setup.bat that invokes c:\windows\setup because otherwise c:\dos\setup (which is useless) would shadow it, and a few other things
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00:34:19 <moon___> wob_jonas: does the amount of Cylinders Heads and Sectors matter for the DOS img? i bet it does
00:35:04 <wob_jonas> moon__: it sort of might matter. but you can set it to any sane amount.
00:35:10 <wob_jonas> actually, I'm not sure it matters
00:35:15 <wob_jonas> I think it matters only for fdisk basically
00:35:20 <wob_jonas> but everything else uses lba
00:35:36 <wob_jonas> fdisk just makes sure to write the partition table to cylinder boundary to make it compatible with old stuff
00:35:48 <wob_jonas> although I'm not really sure
00:35:57 <wob_jonas> set it sanely and then you can't have a problem
00:36:13 <wob_jonas> (basically just set it to 63,255 and as many cylinders as completely fit)
00:36:26 <wob_jonas> and make sure the bios (emulator) and the partition table agree in them
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00:37:04 <moon___> its complaining it cant open the drive image, wtf?
00:37:04 <wob_jonas> the best way for that is to erase the disk to all zeros (not only the partition table, but where each boot sector goes) and then create them with fdisk and format
00:37:35 <moon___> thats what i get for using it on windows *shrug*
00:37:39 <wob_jonas> note that dos (including the format program) is stupid, and will believe some values in the mbr AND the old boot sector blindly, which is why you should zero the boot sector before formatting a drive
00:37:42 <wob_jonas> fdisk doesn't zero it
00:37:49 <wob_jonas> (this is old dos lore)
00:38:36 <wob_jonas> so start from a clean all zeros hard disk image, boot from boot floppy, partition hard disk with DOS fdisk, reboot, boot from boot floppy, use DOS format command
00:38:43 <quintopia> helloerjan
00:38:43 <wob_jonas> then it's safe to copy data in there
00:39:54 <moon___> its unable to find the disk when i have the path everything and all that, its complaining
00:39:55 <moon___> ):
00:40:08 <wob_jonas> don't forget to tell fdisk to make the mbr bootable (set boot partition)
00:40:32 <wob_jonas> AND to make the file system bootable by formatting it with format /s or with the DOS sys command after it's formatted (
00:40:33 <wob_jonas> )
00:40:48 <moon___> its not loading the floppy for some odd reason
00:41:32 <moon___> NVM there it goes
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00:42:16 <oerjan> hellopia
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00:42:48 <wob_jonas> oh, and virtualbox uses some custom disk format for hard disk, not raw hard disk image, so either you have to create the hard disk image with virtualbox, or use some arcane incantations to virtual box to turn a raw image to its favourite format
00:42:58 <moon___> ik
00:43:08 <moon___> im using bochs, i had it installed, but didnt like it
00:43:15 <moon___> and now i got it working
00:43:17 <moon___> :P
00:43:22 <wob_jonas> you could try raw qemu too
00:43:51 <moon___> how do i get what discs are avaliable?
00:44:41 <wob_jonas> moon__: um, what do you mean?
00:44:49 <moon___> Drives
00:45:00 <moon___> What drives are avaliable
00:47:35 <wob_jonas> um, from what? dos? bochs?
00:47:40 <wob_jonas> outside? inside?
00:48:08 <moon___> DOS
00:48:20 <moon___> Srry about being uninformative :P
00:49:26 <wob_jonas> use the fdisk utility, it's interactive and console-based (there's a non-interactive read-only more), it tells how many hard disks the bios sees and how many partitions dos sees on them
00:49:49 <wob_jonas> alternately the de and ndd programs from norton utilities also tell how many physical disks you have
00:51:32 <wob_jonas> then dos sees the partitions as logical disks, denoted by C:, D:, etc, but those letters also include ram drives and cd drives and possibly other, which programs can access logical sector-based through dos, or the file system on them if there's one
00:51:46 <wob_jonas> format formats the logical disks
00:52:17 <wob_jonas> cds work differently though
00:52:20 <wob_jonas> they still get a drive letter
00:53:35 <wob_jonas> oh, and lba sectors are numbered from 1, there's no sector 0
00:53:42 <wob_jonas> this one confuses the hell out of me all the time
00:53:45 <wob_jonas> be careful with it
00:53:48 <wob_jonas> sector 1 is the boot sector
00:54:00 <wob_jonas> sector number 0 is not used for arcane historical reasons
00:57:03 <moon___> kk
00:57:11 <wob_jonas> or something
00:57:13 <wob_jonas> I dunno how this works
00:57:16 <wob_jonas> seriously
00:57:45 <moon___> lol
00:59:28 <moon___> Tip: PowerISO is cancer, dont even peek like it did, i opened installer, and it was offering me random software
00:59:42 <moon___> Deleted\
01:03:16 <wob_jonas> my joe-editor for dos is about 260 kilobytes in size (not copressed) it seems, including the executable and config file (that's all you need to run) but not sources
01:03:47 <wob_jonas> moon__: tell use how you fare with this
01:04:04 <moon___> ?
01:04:33 <moon___> Also, Virtualbox finally got that emulator bug fixed, it can now run that one version of the linux kernal that it used to cause a race on
01:05:09 <wob_jonas> moon__: as in, tell me later if you manage to get it working, or where you're stuck
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02:03:29 <moon___> wob_jonas?
02:03:39 <moon___> b_jonas?
02:04:07 <moon___> Hmph, anyone know how to prevent people from formating C:\ on MS DOS 6.22?
02:07:13 <oerjan> handcuffs hth
02:07:35 <moon___> lol, this is in bochs if it help
02:08:17 <oerjan> it doesn't because i have no clue hth
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02:12:45 <oerjan> `? tanebventions: linguistics
02:13:00 <HackEgo> tanebventions: linguistics? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:14:54 <oerjan> `lastfiles
02:15:01 <HackEgo> wisdom/nundrum
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02:30:11 <boily> `? tanebventions
02:30:13 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:30:28 <boily> `? tanebventions: math
02:30:29 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
02:30:41 <boily> sounds well-rounded.
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03:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> I don't get the phrase "ugly as sin"
03:26:11 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, trig functions are awesome
03:27:05 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
03:27:22 <oerjan> 'cos you deserved it.
03:30:00 <hppavilion[1]> Would a wikipedia article for "List of crazy shit said by Donald J. Trump" break NPOV?
03:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Obviously, not with that name- probably more along the lines of "List of controversial statements made by Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential race"
03:30:34 <hppavilion[1]> )
03:30:44 <orin> probably not
03:30:55 <hppavilion[1]> orin: Probably not which way?
03:31:08 <orin> probably not NPOV
03:31:16 <hppavilion[1]> Because, while it is obviously getting /really/ close to NPOV, Trump DOES say a LOT of crazy things that it would be nice to have a neutral lookup of
03:31:41 <oerjan> well, they'd have to make one for hillary too, then.
03:32:02 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump is probably basically that
03:32:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well of course
03:33:02 <hppavilion[1]> And honestly, saying "Donald Trump is an emotionally-unstable compulsive liar" probably doesn't really break NPOV at this point
03:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> Wow, Trump said Snowden should be "executed"
03:36:21 <orin> hppavilion[1]: he probably won't say that now, now that russia is on his side
03:39:50 <orin> "List of changes to the political positions of Donald Trump"
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04:23:38 <oerjan> . o O ( much adu about nothing )
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04:25:47 <shachaf> Where is a paper I can point someone to that has a formal definition of Leibniz's dy/dx notation?
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04:41:16 <Sgeo__> comex... isn't here
04:41:17 <Sgeo__> bah
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04:55:14 <oerjan> Sgeo__: he's in another channel.
04:56:26 <Jafet> do you really need to be formal about it? just divide the height thingy d^2 by the width (dx)^2 to get the slope, then simplify using (dx)^2 = dx^2
05:16:11 <orin> shachaf: I have a book about the hyperreals somewhere
05:16:19 <shachaf> The hyperreals are scow.
05:16:32 <shachaf> And in NSA they define dy/dx to mean something like the real part of some expression.
05:16:37 <shachaf> It's not literally dy divided by dx
05:25:09 <Jafet> non standard (crypt-)analysis
05:28:14 <orin> shachaf: the derivative of y is the standard (non infinitesimal) part of dy/dx
05:28:41 <shachaf> Right. So dy/du du/dx = dy/dx doesn't make sense seen as canceling.
05:29:17 <orin> shachaf: it does if you use the various properties of the st() function
05:32:19 <orin> in this case, the property st(xy) = st(x)st(y) : x,y finite
05:48:23 <oerjan> not much chance of getting a break in girl genius
05:49:16 * oerjan hopes zeetha and dimo won't get wasped
05:50:47 <oerjan> or violetta, hm
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06:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> Just found an xkcd I haven't seen before :D
06:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> http://xkcd.com/679/
06:18:37 <shachaf> oerjan: SPOILERS tdnh
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07:05:35 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry :(
07:05:51 <shachaf> I'll probably forget it by the time I read GG.
07:05:53 <shachaf> If I ever do.
07:06:28 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
07:06:58 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure my spoiler wasn't precise enough to matter unless you've been recently following.
07:07:25 <shachaf> I didn't mean to make you feel bad.
07:07:35 <shachaf> I should be the one who's apologizing.
07:07:41 <oerjan> EXACTLY
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07:08:41 <shachaf> So what does the notation dy/dx mean?
07:08:46 <shachaf> Please advise.
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07:09:13 <moonythedwarf> Moo
07:09:33 <oerjan> if y is a function f(x) then it means lim h -> 0 (f(x+h)-f(x))/h, hth
07:09:43 <oerjan> *-a function
07:10:19 <shachaf> y is a function or an expression?
07:10:31 <oerjan> i already corrected it
07:10:38 <shachaf> So is y an expression?
07:10:41 <oerjan> yeah
07:10:48 <shachaf> Does dy/dx mean D(\x.y)(x)?
07:11:00 <oerjan> pretty much.
07:11:05 <shachaf> That's what I was thinking.
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07:11:20 <shachaf> OK, now people say things like y^2 = x^2; d/dx both sides to get dy/dx = x/y
07:11:27 <shachaf> What's dy/dx in that case?
07:11:45 <oerjan> MAGIC
07:12:52 <oerjan> well, really the same thing.
07:13:44 <shachaf> When y isn't an expression in terms of x?
07:13:49 <oerjan> you're just assuming y is some expression in x.
07:14:06 <oerjan> and you want to solve for it, or something.
07:14:07 <shachaf> How can you use D if you can't make a function \x.y?
07:14:39 <oerjan> just think of y as a meta-variable?
07:14:47 <shachaf> I never meta-variable I didn't like.
07:14:52 <shachaf> But I'm not sure how it helps here.
07:15:09 <oerjan> of course then they'll turn it around and solve x in terms of y.
07:15:54 <shachaf> One property of dy/dx is that dx/dy = 1/(dy/dx)
07:16:17 <oerjan> indeed
07:16:40 <oerjan> what you can do is to think of this as both x and y being expressions in a third variable
07:17:40 <oerjan> and then dy = dy/dt * dt, where dt is just a formal term.
07:18:04 <moonythedwarf> Hmm? Wheres my jick? My client pinged me
07:18:08 <oerjan> an arbitrary nonzero constant, even.
07:18:17 <moonythedwarf> ??
07:18:18 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: when?
07:18:35 <moonythedwarf> its highlighting (oerjan) and then dy = dy/dt * dt, where dt is just a formal term.
07:18:38 <moonythedwarf> Wtf
07:19:03 <moonythedwarf> *shrug* onetime only i bet
07:19:33 <oerjan> and then dy = dy/dt * dt, where dt is just a formal term.
07:19:43 <moonythedwarf> Highlighted it again
07:19:44 <moonythedwarf> Wtf
07:19:53 <oerjan> fancy
07:20:00 <shachaf> twotime only i bet
07:20:17 <moonythedwarf> Got pinged somewhere else just now, also a apparently random highlight, wtf
07:20:33 <moonythedwarf> Irc had better explain
07:20:44 <oerjan> i think it's your client doing that hth
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07:21:28 <oerjan> check if it has some highlight settings.
07:21:30 <moonythedwarf> Ill check my HL filters
07:21:44 <oerjan> hey, binary search!
07:21:52 <oerjan> and then dy = dy/dt * dt, wh
07:22:05 <oerjan> where dt is just a formal term.
07:22:10 <shachaf> oerjan: you gotta be more like a cpu
07:22:15 <shachaf> start branch predicting hth
07:22:35 <moonythedwarf> Oh lol there was a stray 'a' in my j=highlight settings
07:22:38 <oerjan> it's hard to predict without data
07:22:52 <shachaf> Well, binary search is maximally unpredictable anyway.
07:22:58 <shachaf> That's the whole point.
07:23:24 <shachaf> But predicting nothing is worse than a wrong prediction.
07:23:31 <shachaf> Unless you care about spam, that is.
07:23:34 <shachaf> `1 allquotes
07:23:38 <HackEgo> 1/496:1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warr
07:23:39 <oerjan> OKAY
07:23:44 <shachaf> `spam
07:23:44 <HackEgo> 2/496:igal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 7) <SimonRC> TODO:
07:23:56 <moonythedwarf> Oh boy
07:25:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway, what justifies the whole thing where you separate the dy and the dx?
07:25:56 <oerjan> MAGIC
07:25:58 <shachaf> dy/dx = y -> dy = y dx
07:26:24 <oerjan> seriously, is not like i formally know this.
07:26:42 <shachaf> No one formally knows this.
07:26:44 <shachaf> That's the thing.
07:26:48 <shachaf> But they all use it and it works somehow.
07:27:05 <shachaf> coïncidence?!
07:28:20 <shachaf> Anyway, can you do these tricks on derivatives with types?
07:28:29 <oerjan> wat
07:28:50 <shachaf> Let's see. T = T^7, so dT/dT = dT^7/dT, so 7*T^6 = 1
07:30:36 * oerjan sidles away
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07:42:13 <shachaf> L(x) = 1 + x*L(x), so dL(x)/dx = L(x) + x*dL(x)/dx
07:42:14 <shachaf> Who knows.
07:44:31 <oerjan> hm? that's just differentiating multiplication.
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08:57:45 <b_jonas> "Hmph, anyone know how to prevent people from formating C:\ on MS DOS 6.22?" => I think you don't understand how DOS works. DOS allows all programs full access to your system. Including booting a linux. Make backups if you have sensitive data.
09:09:49 <oerjan> b_jonas: you didn't ping him
09:16:12 <Jafet> are you sure? there were a lot of 'a's in that line
09:16:22 <oerjan> ...
09:16:55 <oerjan> Jafet: i think it was only "a" as a single word, although there's one there.
09:19:44 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: you've been unpinged hth
09:20:02 <oerjan> doesn't look overly present.
09:21:39 <shachaf> poochythedog
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09:40:16 <b_jonas> moon__: ^
10:30:09 <fizzie> Whoop, the wiki recent-changes bridge seems to have gone away again.
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12:33:04 <b_jonas> ok, so a unitary matrix is a square-shaped complex matrix whose columns are unit length and pairwise orthogonal, but if it's a real matrix then it's called an orthogonal matrix instead of a unitary matrix, and if it's a Christian religious denomination then they call it unitarian instead.
12:33:19 <b_jonas> this terminology is confusing, especially if you also add the Hungarian translations.
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13:29:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49067&oldid=47098 * TuxCrafting * (+41) Added a link to my implementation
13:30:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49068&oldid=49067 * TuxCrafting * (-77) y u lie
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14:54:13 <gamemanj> ...what would happen if you took a board designed to be used with a main processor, but noted that you couldn't use the main processor and could only use the co-processor? (The main processor would be responsible for initial data upload to the co-processor, though)
14:54:33 <gamemanj> Would that, for sufficiently annoying-to-use co-processors, be esoteric? :)
14:57:27 <b_jonas> gamemanj: do you mean a coprocessor like in the Sega Saturn which has two equally powerful processors, or a coprocessor as in an intel 80387 which is totally impossible to use without a 386 because it can't even sequence instructions or compute addresses on its own, or a graphics processor in a modern day computer?
14:57:46 <gamemanj> b_jonas: I was thinking the J1 coprocessor in the Gameduino.
14:59:01 <b_jonas> or say the processor in a large printer or printer-scanner on which you can even play Doom, or the processor in the router which runs linux or bsd even when your desktop is turned off, or the small processor in the keyboard, or the processor in ...
14:59:15 <b_jonas> these days we have powerful processors everywhere
15:00:39 <gamemanj> yep, hence I was thinking of a specific hardware platform in which the coprocessor has, among other things:
15:02:51 <gamemanj> code size limitations, and pretty much all available RAM (afaik not usable as code) is used for some hardware feature or another (so you have to make a choice between RAM or video)
15:03:36 <gamemanj> (like, you could sacrifice tile RAM, or maybe sacrifice sprite palettes/sprite image data)
15:04:22 <gamemanj> (and ofc you can still use the other sprite image RAM areas, but it still means you have less sprite images available)
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15:34:51 <alercah> gamemanj: sounds like graphics code
15:37:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49069&oldid=49068 * TuxCrafting * (+25)
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16:42:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SetBang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49070&oldid=47016 * 63.116.152.166 * (+107) Third blog post.
16:48:16 <ybden> ooh, new setbang post
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16:49:14 <gamemanj> if a language is good for job security, I doubt I want to use it
16:49:40 <gamemanj> because that's usually "you go and everything collapses" kind of security
17:45:53 <orin> wasn't there a language recently where everything is a pointer to a pointer to a pointer?
17:46:31 <orin> and you could only do pinter arithmentic indirected through sevarl pointers as the only opearion?
17:46:44 <ybden> orin: 3*?
17:46:50 <orin> oh right
17:46:57 <ybden> or however it was stylised
17:47:02 <ybden> I tried doing some stuff with that
17:47:08 <ybden> It was fun
17:47:29 <orin> three star programmer
17:48:01 <ybden> orin: was that the name of the language, or are you calling me one?
17:49:03 <orin> that's the name
17:57:16 <ybden> ah
17:57:25 <ybden> Well, both would be correct, then :P
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18:14:01 <MoonyTheDwarf_> Someone please explain why 'Refrigerator' is in the topic
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18:15:25 <izabera> it's too hot without it
18:16:51 <MoonyTheDwarf_> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
18:17:05 <quintopia> MoonyTheDwarf_: its the last line of the haiku
18:17:14 <MoonyTheDwarf_> ?
18:17:57 <quintopia> telekinetic interdisciplinary refrigerator
18:20:39 <gamemanj> quintopia: ...because anything can be interdisciplinary, right?
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18:43:05 <izabera> `` unidecode $'\357\273\277'
18:43:18 <HackEgo> ​[U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE]
18:49:51 <quintopia> gamemanj: duh
19:07:04 <orin> refigerator also has five syllables in Japanese
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19:25:44 <MoonyTheDwarf_> wanyone know how to set up serial over network for bochs?
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20:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> Horseshoe Theory is fun
20:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if I can combine it with the Political Compass or something...
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20:40:56 <izabera> protip: don't work in /tmp if it's a tmpfs and there's the slightest chance of a power fail
20:52:57 <hppavilion[1]> Protip: Follow all protips you see, because they're usually good advice
20:53:36 <fizzie> ProtIP: protects your IP address.
20:54:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:02:33 <izabera> what happens if you don't? D:
21:02:51 <izabera> will hackers find where i live and tell isis to kidnap my dog?
21:03:00 <hppavilion[1]> New favorite hard-to-parse-but-still valid ("garden path") sentence: Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?
21:03:10 <int-e> it depends... do you have a dog?
21:03:13 <izabera> n
21:03:15 <izabera> o
21:03:19 <int-e> then no.
21:03:22 <izabera> oh
21:03:24 <izabera> wait
21:03:27 <izabera> how did they know it?
21:04:37 <myname> from ypur ip, dude
21:05:02 <int-e> time to stop using Isabelle for today... I'm starting to find "by auto blast" amusing.
21:05:03 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, they just check the dog bit
21:05:33 <izabera> gotta get one of those fancy new dynamic ips
21:05:43 <shachaf> pooch bit?
21:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> We shouldn't use Appeals to Tradition in debates because they've always been considered invalid arguments
21:13:52 <hppavilion[1]> Non sequiturs are a bad form of reasoning because space monkeys are trying to conquer the moon
21:16:09 <shachaf> i get it
21:16:13 <shachaf> the joke is that you're arguing against classes of arguments by using those arguments themselves
21:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> People who invoke Ad Hominem are assholes
21:16:14 <izabera> fail
21:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> Ha! Ad Hominem apparently translates to "against the man"
21:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor, hippies can be called "Ad Hominites"
21:16:14 <shachaf> ad poochinem
21:17:44 <hppavilion[1]> If we allow Appeal to Fear to be used, then Trump will be elected
21:18:19 <shachaf> what about appeal to rudeness
21:20:41 <shachaf> i'm being rude now
21:20:41 <shachaf> but that's ok
21:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> My preferred argument is Appeal to the Supreme Court
21:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> :P
21:21:55 <hppavilion[1]> But the argument I like to use the most is (1) take the opponent's basic claim/evidence, assume it's true (letting other people debunk that, as I usually do mass debating) (2) show that, even if their evidence is true, their conclusion is still stupid because, once you calculate statistics, their are several other possibilities
21:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> For example, Trump claimed he saw New Jersey muslims cheering on 9/11
21:22:42 <hppavilion[1]> I did the math and found that there are a few thousand muslims in New Jersey whose birthday was on 9/11, so even if he did see that, it could very well have been a coincidence
21:24:35 * hppavilion[1] prays that that doesn't have any glaring flaws
21:29:52 <izabera> you came up with a pathetic excuse for something that didn't happen in the first place
21:30:31 <izabera> only making your opponent look more credible than you
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21:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Carl is a jackass." - Wikipedia, and not in the context of a quote
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21:47:58 <boily> `wisdom
21:48:09 <HackEgo> nundrum//A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless.
21:48:32 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:48:33 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:48:34 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:48:35 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:48:55 <HackEgo> turing//Turing is what you are doing when you Tur
21:49:03 <HackEgo> monoid//A monoid is the easy version of a category.
21:49:03 <HackEgo> hexchat//Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham.
21:49:03 <HackEgo> clbin//clbin is a "command line pastebin" web application: https://clbin.com
21:50:08 <shachaf> I thought "turing" meant "using the Internet".
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21:56:58 <moon___> i just got a amazing 46 FPS on a max size embark (dwarf fortress 0.43.05, 64bit)
21:59:02 -!- augur has joined.
22:02:57 <orin> now flood the map with magma and see that go down to less than one
22:04:22 <moon___> lol
22:04:34 <moon___> it already halved, vut arill, 46 starting fps is new
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22:12:18 <boily> hellochaf, mhelloon___, hellorin!
22:12:45 <shachaf> @tell boily yo
22:13:59 <moon___> hi boily
22:16:46 <boily> @massages-loud
22:16:46 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
22:17:13 <boily> ???
22:19:07 <shachaf> `cwlprits clbin
22:19:15 <HackEgo> dipperswett
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22:25:47 <boily> @massages-loud
22:25:47 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
22:25:58 <boily> OKAY
22:28:31 -!- moon___ has changed nick to MoonyTheHuman.
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22:35:19 <orin> hellwob_jonas!
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22:40:30 <wob_jonas> the large fast SD card I ordered hasn't arrived, even though the delivery was estimated for up to today, and it comes from the UK
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22:42:27 <wob_jonas> `dateu
22:42:29 <HackEgo> 2016-08-03 21:42:19.388000000+00:00
22:42:41 <boily> the UK is faraway hth
22:43:07 <wob_jonas> boily: yeah, I heard scary stories
22:44:10 <boily> maybe Taneb is a nazgûl?
22:50:55 <MoonyTheHuman> hi wob_jonas
22:51:35 <wob_jonas> Hmm... if I digitally edit the airplane boarding pass to remove the LARGE ADS WITH FULL-COLOR PHOTO THAT TAKE UP A THIRD OF THE SHEET to conserve ink, but keep the barcodes and text data, would that be crazy of me?
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22:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-U4kg2cHyP6k/URLY6BOsypI/AAAAAAAAA6E/HGLOlRU1HBc/s1222/foxnewsprime.jpg
22:59:44 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody needs to die
23:02:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:04:34 <boily> hppavellon[1]. this makes me angry.
23:04:57 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Me too.
23:05:06 <hppavilion[1]> I will find that article and execute the writer.
23:05:16 <shachaf> I don't think anyone needs to die.
23:05:25 <shachaf> And I particularly don't think you should talk about killing people.
23:05:26 <hppavilion[1]> Bullet to the stomach seems appropriate, unless there's something more ironic
23:05:27 <shachaf> Please don't.
23:05:32 <shachaf> Hey, stop it.
23:05:44 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Is there any more ironic, less illegal response?
23:05:53 <shachaf> I don't know or care.
23:06:14 <shachaf> Honestly, your jokes in here aren't funny anyway. I just ignore them.
23:06:23 <shachaf> But this is crossing some line.
23:06:42 <hppavilion[1]> :,(
23:06:58 <hppavilion[1]> I wasn't so much joking as I was appalled and angry
23:07:01 <int-e> . o O ( http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/serenity.png )
23:07:23 <shachaf> I don't see anything appalling.
23:07:41 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:50 <shachaf> Well, except for the bit where you're talking about murdering people.
23:07:53 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A person who was tasked with writing a news article that would be read by many Americans about math said that prime number have "very little importance"
23:08:00 <hppavilion[1]> s/number/numbers/
23:08:07 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: tswett).
23:08:12 <hppavilion[1]> If it was just one guy being an idiot to himself, it'd be fine
23:08:21 <shachaf> int-e: ?
23:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> But this is an article that will be read by lots of people
23:08:33 <shachaf> Prime numbers have very little importance.
23:08:54 -!- Warrigal has joined.
23:08:55 <shachaf> Whereas death threats or whatever have a lot more importance.
23:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure prime numbers have a lot of importance to society
23:09:14 <hppavilion[1]> Like, y'know, encryption
23:09:37 <shachaf> Small amount of imortance. You can do encryption without prime numbers.
23:09:52 <shachaf> But that's not the point. Even if that person is wrong, your behavior is unacceptable.
23:10:13 <shachaf> I request that you stop.
23:10:20 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
23:10:32 <hppavilion[1]> Fine
23:11:31 <MoonyTheHuman> read this over. ??? never seen hppavilion[1] use that bad of a joke >_>
23:11:48 <hppavilion[1]> MoonyTheHuman: It's what happens when I'm angry
23:12:07 <hppavilion[1]> And keep in mind, I saw that in the middle of a long line of fox news fails and lies
23:12:35 <hppavilion[1]> For example, several disproportionate bar graphs where an increase of 1 would be represented as 8 times as much
23:12:42 <int-e> shachaf: it's a coping mechanism, though a bit leaky
23:13:11 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, I see now.
23:13:35 <myname> hppavilion[1]: just don't do news
23:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I have family that watches Fox News exclusively, so this is personal for me
23:14:26 <myname> american problems
23:14:40 <boily> int-e: int-ello. serenity?
23:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> So on a different note
23:14:52 <MoonyTheHuman> hmm.. Gimmie the latest D-Wave computer and a good prime number calculator. done. moar
23:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> What would be a better form of math education in the US
23:15:09 <MoonyTheHuman> Dunno
23:15:24 <hppavilion[1]> What classes should be mandatory (at what grades can they be taken, what grades must they be taken by), what do they cover, what options should be mandatorily available?
23:15:27 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:15:48 <MoonyTheHuman> heres one: Vector\
23:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf please stop being such a grumpy codger
23:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> how old are you hppavilion[1] anyway
23:16:47 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: no u
23:17:24 <int-e> boily: as long as I avoid reading between the lines
23:18:05 <shachaf> int-e: Perhaps I should use an IRC client that supports temporarily showing ignored text.
23:18:09 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: ...object to answer?
23:18:26 <hppavilion[1]> I do think schools should teach logic of some sort
23:18:45 <hppavilion[1]> (at least, a half-semester class where they go over logical fallacies and say why they're wrong and you shouldn't use them)
23:18:54 <myname> so that less people get reasonable grades?
23:18:57 <Phantom_Hoover> that's not how logical fallacies work
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23:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I think it is?
23:20:22 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i have to tell you a truth
23:20:29 <myname> people are stupid
23:20:32 <myname> deal with it
23:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> 'logical fallacies' with the latin name and shit are kind of useless
23:20:41 <hppavilion[1]> myname: On average, people are average intelligence.
23:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Not really; and it would cover informal ones too
23:21:04 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't make most of the people less stupid
23:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> cognitive biases are the empirically-measurable equivalent and they don't work like a little book of Reasons People Are Wrong Online
23:21:32 <hppavilion[1]> (note: True Scotsmen get to skip the class)
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23:24:21 <boily> just opened my first pickled peppers. they taste good ^^
23:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> you could go full UEF and try to coach people out of the fundamental attribution error but i imagine it'd be p tricky in real life
23:27:28 <oerjan> baroi lyereko
23:27:58 <shachaf> Good afternoon, oerjan.
23:28:09 <oerjan> Good evening, shachaf.
23:29:25 <boily> . o O ( baroi lyereko??? I have no fungotting clue... )
23:29:26 <fungot> boily: oct. 19, 2000
23:29:30 * oerjan notes that his procedure for reading the logs has become ridiculously convoluted.
23:29:36 <shachaf> How d'you do?
23:29:39 <oerjan> boily: *MWAHAHAHA*
23:29:40 <int-e> hoerjani
23:29:51 <oerjan> evenint-e
23:30:11 <boily> ubusuku oerjabuhle
23:30:14 <int-e> oerjan: not quite the same https://xkcd.com/609/
23:30:19 <oerjan> boily: it's transliterated, anyway.
23:30:34 <boily> ukrainian?
23:31:03 <oerjan> . o O ( is there a rickrolling wiki )
23:31:08 <oerjan> boily: nope
23:31:46 <oerjan> i assume ukrainian would use something dobry-like, like any good slavic language?
23:32:33 * oerjan has to cheat, anyway.
23:32:45 <boily> yeah, dobroho večora.
23:32:45 <oerjan> except i can guess it's a bantu language?
23:33:02 <boily> xhosa.
23:33:08 <oerjan> yay
23:33:12 <boily> yours is some sami variant?
23:33:14 <oerjan> no.
23:33:24 <boily> darn.
23:33:25 <shachaf> oerjan: jolly good show, old chap
23:33:31 <int-e> oerjan: (never) I (gonna) sincerely (give) hope (you) that (up) there (never) is (gonna) no (let) such (you) thing! (down!)
23:34:08 * boily subliminally mapoles int-e
23:34:23 <oerjan> i haven't used sami because the phrases i found did not seem to attach well to boily.
23:34:35 <oerjan> afair.
23:35:15 <oerjan> boily: hint?
23:35:22 -!- augur has joined.
23:35:44 <boily> not yet, still searching.
23:36:29 <boily> found!
23:36:33 <boily> eastern armenian.
23:37:17 <oerjan> int-e: to read the logs, i'm (1) making sure tunes is shown in utf-8 (it isn't always. in some cases i cannot even show it but have to save.) (2) copy into vim (3) break lines (4) load file in browser.
23:38:16 <shachaf> That sounds complicated.
23:38:19 <shachaf> You should automate it.
23:38:38 <oerjan> also the line breaking is convoluted too. i should make a macro.
23:39:12 <shachaf> Why is it convoluted?
23:39:33 <oerjan> boily: yep
23:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> `? ngevd
23:39:53 <HackEgo> L½ŒÛµìüª¦¼Ð’ÝæÕ}9´Ï]Jm玅¾í[¸Ï¯0³óUÔ.Fi¸
23:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> short, that time
23:40:15 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a normal mode command that only inserts one break (and indent) per affected line, so i repeat until it stops.
23:41:29 <oerjan> :%s/\(.\{75\}\) /\1^M /
23:42:37 <shachaf> Why don't you make a small web page that fetches the latest log, applies transformation, and serves it to your browser?
23:42:47 <oerjan> fancy
23:43:11 <shachaf> Then you could just go to that URL directly. It'd be so easy.
23:43:58 <oerjan> oh i forgot the step where i sometimes join two days hth
23:44:25 <shachaf> You can do that too.
23:44:39 <shachaf> With only a small amount of work you can ask for the logs for any time interval.
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23:45:15 <quintopia> coily!
23:47:58 <boily> quinthellopia!
23:48:20 <oerjan> ...so ghc is going to get a "bespoke" keyword.
23:48:26 <oerjan> (in deriving clauses)
23:48:41 <int-e> spooky
23:49:04 <oerjan> it's not a word i'm intuitively familiar with, although the dictionary meaning _does_ fit.
23:49:50 <oerjan> (it means to apply the specialized deriving method for a builtin class.)
23:50:22 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
23:50:29 <oerjan> although it may not be used that much, being the default whenever applicable.
23:50:51 <oerjan> (i hope.)
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2016-08-04
00:08:41 <zzo38> You can also type "view-source:" in front of the URL to force it to display in the browser (at least this works for Firefox and other Mozilla-based browsers).
00:10:10 <shachaf> Does it work in Mozilla Navigator?
00:12:40 <Sgeo__> shachaf, do you play Dominion?
00:12:52 <shachaf> Hardly.
00:13:01 <Sgeo__> Also ais523 isn't here, I wanted to tell him thanks for being a good historian
00:13:25 <Sgeo__> Or... whatever you call it when someone meticulously documents stuff for the benefit of future historians
00:13:58 <fizzie> A HistoryProvider.
00:14:25 <fizzie> I think I've played Dominion once at a birthday party. If that's referring to the card game.
00:14:31 <Sgeo__> yes
00:14:48 <Sgeo__> I learned the rules and might try playing through the tutorial tonight
00:15:06 <Sgeo__> It's evenly matched like Prismata but has RNG
00:15:53 <shachaf> OK, then let's play Prismata.
00:16:03 <shachaf> fizzie can play too.
00:16:46 <fizzie> Thanks, but no-thanks. Sounds too reasonable a thing to do.
00:17:03 <MoonyTheHuman> hi fizzie
00:18:24 * Sgeo__ is reading http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg07043.html
00:23:10 -!- augur has joined.
00:28:40 <oerjan> Sgeo__: chronicler?
00:29:12 <Sgeo__> Huh, that was an office in Agora that I apparently held but don't remember holding
00:30:57 * oerjan stealthily takes a DNA sample of MoonyThe"Human"
00:31:58 <MoonyTheHuman> Sorry, too busy messing with DF raws
00:32:24 <MoonyTheHuman> making cats highly volatile
00:32:29 <MoonyTheHuman> just for fun
00:33:30 * oerjan puts the sample into the analyzer
00:34:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:34:45 * oerjan wonders why the analyzer ran away screaming
00:35:17 -!- augur has joined.
00:35:19 <MoonyTheHuman> lol
00:35:39 <boily> MoonyTheHuman: you aren't human. you're a moon hth
00:35:53 <Sgeo__> boily, like Prozac the Bear?
00:36:32 <oerjan> that's no moon!
00:36:33 <MoonyTheHuman> I dunno what i am, have a list of usernames: MoonyTheHuman, qbitn, MoonyTheDwarf, moon, moon_, moon__, moon___, moonheart08
00:36:55 <MoonyTheHuman> note that qbitn is new, i wanted something original :P
00:37:44 <oerjan> hm Prozac the Bear, that was a long time ago. i don't even remember clearly what he was.
00:38:01 <oerjan> oh qbitn was you?
00:38:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:38:34 <MoonyTheHuman> i just added [DAMBLOCK:1] to cats
00:38:49 <MoonyTheHuman> should i make it higher
00:40:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:40:18 <Sgeo__> oerjan, Triangle and Robert character
00:40:58 <oerjan> Sgeo__: i know that. i just don't remember how far he was from being a bear. probably a lot, given the comic.
00:41:19 <Sgeo__> He was a Prozac
00:42:07 <oerjan> `? esoteric
00:42:11 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
00:42:15 <oerjan> `? #esoteric
00:42:16 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric is the only channel that doesn't exist. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:43:02 <shachaf> `slwd #esoteric//s-doesn't exist-exists-
00:43:06 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:43:37 <oerjan> `slwd #esoteric/s/about/a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about/
00:43:39 <HackEgo> usage: sled file//script
00:43:50 <oerjan> `slwd #esoteric//s/about/a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about/
00:43:54 <shachaf> fwiled
00:43:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:44:20 <shachaf> `` rgrep burrito wisdom
00:44:36 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric:#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:44:41 <shachaf> I protest.
00:44:56 <shachaf> `slwd #esoteric//s#burrito#whatever#
00:44:58 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperwhatever about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:45:04 <shachaf> Just about anything is an improvement over burrito jokes.
00:45:52 <oerjan> shachaf: but the original has taco ;_;
00:46:15 <shachaf> Original?
00:46:19 <oerjan> `slwd #esoteric//s#whatever#enchilada#
00:46:22 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:46:22 <shachaf> 7-tacodimensional?
00:46:35 <oerjan> shachaf: triangle and robert's world is a 4-dimension hypertaco hth
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01:20:17 <MoonyTheHuman> [BODY:QUADRUPED_NECK:2EYES:4EARS:8NOSE:16LUNGS:32HEART:64GUTS:128ORGANS:256THROAT:512NECK:1024SPINE:2048BRAIN] << i seriously regret putting this on cats
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01:31:51 <boily> uhm. are they the number of body parts, or some other random stats?
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01:44:23 <MoonyTheHuman> number of parts
01:44:33 <MoonyTheHuman> ;-;
01:44:39 <MoonyTheHuman> i thought it was something else
01:45:30 <boily> holy fungot may you have mercy on us all...
01:45:30 <fungot> boily: to find. initiates my bad reaction of companies that the attached and let it go with maureen's december 22nd.
01:45:53 * boily will try to not have nightmares about these Teratomorphic Kitties
01:47:18 <MoonyTheHuman> Wow in this DF world Dingo Men are the most successful
01:47:20 <MoonyTheHuman> wew
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01:47:41 <MoonyTheHuman> wew
01:47:44 <boily> wew?
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01:49:50 <boily> `? wew
01:49:53 <HackEgo> wew? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> W E W L A D
01:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> E
01:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> W
01:52:23 <Phantom_Hoover> L
01:52:24 <Phantom_Hoover> A
01:52:25 <Phantom_Hoover> D
01:55:47 * boily confusingly mapoles Phantom_Hoover
02:02:28 <quintopia> hello
02:02:42 <quintopia> what is boily still doing here
02:03:50 <quintopia> and where is oerjan?
02:04:04 <MoonyTheHuman> Im busy beheading my monstercats in DF
02:04:15 <quintopia> tdnh
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02:04:30 <MoonyTheHuman> i keep oneshotting them >_>
02:04:52 -!- augur has joined.
02:05:09 <quintopia> sdnh
02:05:34 <quintopia> oerjan do you beer
02:05:55 <MoonyTheHuman> Oh, and they have 2048 brains bythe way
02:06:55 <quintopia> svmdnh
02:07:10 <MoonyTheHuman> 4EARS:8NOSE:16LUNGS:32HEART:64GUTS:128ORGANS:256THROAT:512NECK:1024SPINE:2048BRAIN
02:07:13 <MoonyTheHuman> there is ur list
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02:10:39 <boily> I am not there. I am an illusion.
02:10:50 * boily flees and hides under covers
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02:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> MoonyTheHuman, this reminds me of a story i red
02:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> *read
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02:27:55 <oerjan> quintopia: i am not sure when's the last time i beered. it may have been a family visit some years ago. on rare occasions i cognac or aquavit. hm, i haven't had wine in a while either.
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02:50:12 <quintopia> oerjan: i just tried a Nøgne Ø doible IPA and it was pretty bad so so far norways beer performance is a bit lacking
02:50:21 <quintopia> aquavit is good tho
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02:59:28 <Zarutian> hmm.. Anyone know of any macro extensible version of LOOP or other esolang that is basically at the primitive recursive function level of completeness?
02:59:46 <oerjan> i have a problem with the GHC user's guide. its table of contents needs a table of contents.
03:02:09 <oerjan> Zarutian: i got confused because BlooP is like the last part of that.
03:06:07 <Zarutian> I was thinking if combining something like such macro LOOP with something like Postscript display model or RIPSCRIP|NAPLPS plus outside eventlooping would yeild somewhat usable software whose turns|iteration of the eventloop are known to terminate*
03:07:36 <Zarutian> (* property of primitive recursive functions that by construction they do terminate as the only backbranching (or backjumping) construct is a countdown loop whose counter is only set right before it is entered)
03:07:46 <shachaf> i,i Zarutian38
03:08:57 <Zarutian> shachaf: ?
03:11:17 <shachaf> never mind
03:14:11 <Cale> RIP RIP
03:14:27 <Cale> good ol' BBSes
03:16:49 <shachaf> `relcome Cale
03:17:02 <HackEgo> Cale: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:17:21 <Cale> such colours
03:21:19 <moonythedwarf> Welvomr
03:21:25 <moonythedwarf> Damnit
03:22:15 <shachaf> `` ln -s relcome bin/welcome
03:22:20 <HackEgo> No output.
03:22:34 <shachaf> `welcome HackEgo
03:22:37 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:22:44 <shachaf> that's more like it tdh
03:23:34 <Cale> Is the choice of starting colour randomised, or based on the user's name?
03:23:41 <Cale> `welcome HackEgo
03:23:43 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:23:45 <Cale> oh, heh
03:23:52 <Cale> `relcome HackEgo
03:23:54 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:23:59 <shachaf> `cat bin/relcome
03:23:59 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
03:24:05 <shachaf> `cat bin/rainwords
03:24:05 <HackEgo> ​#!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
03:26:30 * oerjan notes that no one `relcomed Zarutian, but isn't sure whether e's new or not.
03:27:22 <moonythedwarf> Cale, hackego is a sandboxed linux system
03:27:45 <Cale> shachaf: haha, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow-growing_hierarchy#Relation_to_fast-growing_hierarchy
03:28:59 <shachaf> That article title looks like a joke.
03:29:44 <shachaf> This is great.
03:30:34 * Zarutian wonders what HackEgo would do with: curl -sS https://gist.githubusercontent.com/zarutian/9191d98f731241a52e1a4f6a59dd0587/raw/f4b7cee07dea66e8721ded9559059245e79bdf9b/test.sh | tee test.sh | openssl dgst -sha256 | { read k; if [ "$k" == "113b61457034e72b9a12eb875df5ed71e265dcc6105c00e472187d30c0cc8c88" ] ; then source test.sh ; else echo "failed"; fi }
03:31:08 <moonythedwarf> No network access
03:31:21 <moonythedwarf> Curl doesnt exist to hackego anyways
03:32:29 <Zarutian> btw that is a demostration of a better curlpipebash though such things are still rather bad
03:34:02 <Zarutian> `echo -n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256
03:34:04 <HackEgo> ​-n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256
03:34:46 <moonythedwarf> Use `` for multiple args
03:34:57 <moonythedwarf> Dont forget the space
03:35:09 <shachaf> Also you can /msg HackEgo to try things out.
03:35:17 <shachaf> Just make sure that if you change anything you do it in the channel.
03:35:18 <moonythedwarf> `` echo -n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256
03:35:20 <HackEgo> WARNING: can't open config file: /usr/lib/ssl/openssl.cnf \ (stdin)= 4df3c3f68fcc83b27e9d42c90431a72499f17875c81a599b566c9889b9696703
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03:43:19 <shachaf> `? mustard watch
03:43:21 <HackEgo> mustard watch? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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03:46:47 <shachaf> `le/rn mustard watch/A mustard watch is just a classical watch extended with a certain amount of mustard in the mechanism.
03:46:50 <HackEgo> Learned «mustard watch»
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05:10:26 <mrSynAckster> Sup brainfuckers ;)
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05:29:03 <mrSynAckster> Unusually quiet in here tonight.
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06:17:51 <Jafet> `? brainfuck
06:18:06 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
06:27:02 <oerjan> `? taste
06:27:04 <HackEgo> taste? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
06:27:10 <oerjan> `? flavor
06:27:12 <HackEgo> flavor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
06:27:14 <oerjan> `? flavour
06:27:15 <HackEgo> flavour? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
06:27:18 <oerjan> hm
06:27:35 <oerjan> `` rgrep 'of the day' wisdom
06:27:44 <HackEgo> wisdom/markdown:The markdown flavor of the day is walnut.
06:28:16 <oerjan> `slwd markdown//s/walnut/camphor/
06:28:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/markdown//The markdown flavor of the day is camphor.
06:34:55 <shachaf> `learn The number of the hour is 14.
06:34:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'number': The number of the hour is 14.
06:35:43 <zzo38> Now I added the program to make hint files into FreeUHS.
06:36:04 <zzo38> Please look at the documentation and tell me if it is good or not good or whatever.
06:36:17 <shachaf> But you didn't provide a link to the documentation.
06:37:06 <zzo38> https://www.npmjs.com/package/freeuhs
06:39:52 <zzo38> It also has JSON export and SQL export.
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10:03:22 <hppavilion[1]> Question: Will silence fall?
10:09:05 <zzo38> Falling on top of what?
10:09:22 <zzo38> When I type these messages on this computer, it makes noise; it doesn't silence.
10:12:15 <gamemanj> if you threw silence off of a cliff, would it fall?
10:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> OMG
10:19:42 <hppavilion[1]> Trump's odds of winning (according to five3eight) have dropped to about 25%
10:20:00 <gamemanj> Finally.
10:23:48 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: So instead, we'll probably get... Hillary
10:25:08 <zzo38> You have to injure both candidates so that they will not recover in time.
10:25:34 <gamemanj> Well. You'll probably get Hillary. I, on the other hand, will be sipping tea and watching as the rotten tomatoes get flung over that golf course I heard about.
10:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
10:26:26 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Where do you live and how hard will it be to flee there?
10:26:53 <gamemanj> At least one famous ship hit an iceberg when trying to get from here to where you are.
10:27:01 <hppavilion[1]> Wait...
10:27:04 <gamemanj> Where "here" is at the country level.
10:27:11 <hppavilion[1]> Isn't that New York?
10:27:17 <gamemanj> No?
10:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember the Titanic aiming for New York
10:27:19 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
10:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> Canada, then?
10:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> Has to be one of the two
10:27:33 <gamemanj> If the titanic was aiming for New York
10:27:39 <gamemanj> then where was it coming from?
10:27:48 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm 99% certain that the Titanic was going west)
10:27:56 <gamemanj> (exactly)
10:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> Russia?
10:28:06 <gamemanj> ...
10:28:12 <gamemanj> England!
10:28:15 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
10:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> So the Titanic was going East then?
10:28:25 <gamemanj> ...
10:28:48 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Europe is east of the U.S.
10:29:00 <gamemanj> Yes. So if it was going *from* Europe
10:29:03 <gamemanj> *to* the US
10:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> OH
10:29:13 <hppavilion[1]> OMFG
10:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> I read it "to here from where you are"
10:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> And then read it that way again repeatedly
10:29:46 <gamemanj> ...
10:30:03 * hppavilion[1] goes and sits in the stupid hole
10:30:11 * gamemanj gives hppavilion[1] a biscuit
10:30:39 <fizzie> http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/531/391/b58.gif is what people hereabouts tend to use when they've done something like that.
10:31:17 <gamemanj> what on earth is that?
10:31:29 <fizzie> It's the shame cube.
10:31:42 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: I thought it was the shame matrix of solidity?
10:32:05 <fizzie> I don't know where it's from. Know Your Meme just has the image in their gallery, no explanations.
10:32:08 <int-e> it's a box you can... meditate... in
10:33:10 <int-e> (now I'm wondering why Portal doesn't feature one of those... it would fit perfectly)
10:33:57 <int-e> Perhaps you could even use one to capture turrets.
10:34:57 <int-e> Which would be much more turricula
10:35:08 <int-e> Which would be much more turriculane than the usual technique of knocking them over?
10:35:40 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Maybe in Portal 3
10:37:26 <fizzie> To jump back to the original conversation -- given recent events, I'd think fleeing to here is going to be increasingly difficult, what with this whole "get all them foreigners out" stuff.
11:00:14 <shachaf> But almost everyone in England is a foreigner.
11:20:44 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, that's america
11:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, are we talking about immigration recently or about the fact that Americans are all immigrants unless they're native?)
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11:22:09 <shachaf> We're talking about the fact that people in England tend not to be US citizens, under a US-centric view of the world.
11:35:53 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, right
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11:43:39 <hppavilion[1]> ahoilyQ
11:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> s/Q/!/
11:43:53 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, do I need to escape bangs?)
11:45:05 <boily> hppavellon[!]1
11:45:40 <boily> only if you use them as /-substitutes hth
12:09:37 <boily> `wisdom
12:09:40 <boily> `wisdom
12:09:42 <boily> `wisdom
12:09:52 <shachaf> `wisdom
12:09:52 <shachaf> `wisdom
12:10:52 <HackEgo> No output.
12:11:09 <HackEgo> cia//CIA sees it all.
12:11:14 <HackEgo> arabic//.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA
12:11:15 <HackEgo> copower//Copower rrupts.
12:11:17 <HackEgo> guestbot//guestbot is nobody
12:12:10 <boily> how the fungot am I supposed to format wisdom/arabic in the PDF...
12:12:37 <shachaf> I'd half a mind to delete it.
12:12:54 <shachaf> `howg guestbot
12:12:58 <HackEgo> ​<int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <Bike> revert \ <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ <guestbot> learn guestbot is nobody
12:13:09 <gamemanj> boily: Well, by the look of it, it's just in reverse
12:13:11 <gamemanj> no special chars
12:13:22 <b_jonas> shachaf: feel free to revert it
12:13:39 <gamemanj> taht etalume tsuj os
12:15:23 <shachaf> `? cat
12:15:25 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
12:15:27 <shachaf> `? dog
12:15:29 <HackEgo> dog? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:15:30 <shachaf> `? pooch
12:15:31 <HackEgo> pooch? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:15:35 <boily> yes, but I'd like for the arabic part to be to the right. and maybe LaTeX supports character reflections, so it can really be RTL.
12:15:36 <shachaf> `? zebra
12:15:37 <HackEgo> zebra? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:17:25 <b_jonas> boily: don't do character reflections for this. reflect the whole paragraph.
12:19:08 <boily> uuh... that's what I meant, just checking if somebody paid attention...
12:19:36 <b_jonas> but I think the arabic entry shouldn't be reflected
12:19:55 * boily tries to whistle innocently, but only splits bits of peanut butter toast
12:19:57 <b_jonas> you should either just show it as is, or show it aligned to the right margin instead of the left
12:20:19 <boily> ss\split\ss\spit\ss
12:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> How long do you think it is before fandoms dominate enough of the world that politicians start having to pander to them?
12:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, Ted Cruz officially* endorsed Applejack as best pony
12:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> Weirdly
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12:38:30 <Jafet> `hd wisdom/arabic
12:38:32 <HackEgo> 000000 2e 73 63 69 68 70 79 6c 67 6f 72 65 69 48 20 73 >.scihpylgoreiH s< \ 000010 61 20 64 72 61 68 20 73 61 20 74 6f 6e 20 68 67 >a drah sa ton hg< \ 000020 75 6f 68 74 20 2c 74 72 6f 70 70 75 73 20 73 74 >uoht ,troppus st< \ 000030 6e 6f 66 20 65 6b 61 6d 20 6f 74 20 64 72 61 68 >nof ekam ot drah< \ 000040 20 79 72 65 76 20 73 69 20 74 61 68
12:48:20 <Jafet> `echo ‮Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics.
12:48:21 <HackEgo> ​‮Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics.
12:48:41 <Jafet> I wonder how many terminals display that correctly.
12:49:07 <nortti> I know of three. os x terminal.app, pangoterm, and one I can't remember the name of
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13:01:56 <FreeFull> Jafet: What counts as correctly, and what as incorrectly?
13:02:59 <FreeFull> I saw this (typed out rather than copy-pasted): "Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics."
13:03:08 <FreeFull> Is that what it's supposed to look like?
13:13:06 <gamemanj> What I see is ",troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA not as hard as Hieroglyphics."
13:13:30 <gamemanj> Oh, there's also "hguoht" at the start.
13:13:41 <gamemanj> I was wondering where that "though" went.
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13:21:42 <FreeFull> But which one is correct????
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13:38:25 <b_jonas> oh, then why didn't you say that, stupid error message?
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14:03:32 <Jafet> gamemanj: that's a... novel interpretation of RTLO.
14:04:22 <Jafet> hmm, most articles about the RTLO seem to be about using it to spoof filename extensions.
14:06:11 <gamemanj> Jafet: Blame the line break.
14:06:27 <gamemanj> Jafet: Well, word-wrapping break.
14:06:54 <gamemanj> It's after "cibarA" that it wraps to the next line.
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16:42:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49071&oldid=19937 * Weux082690 * (+513) /* Boolean Logic */ new section
16:43:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49072&oldid=49071 * Weux082690 * (+92) /* Boolean Logic */
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20:07:24 <haavard> Does anyone know of a simple black-box testing framework I can use to test my esolang interpreter? As in, running my program with lots of different input and testing for output or performance regressions
20:07:47 <haavard> I'm using a home-made shell script currently, but it feels like I'm reinventing the wheel
20:08:51 <gamemanj> home-made shell scripts are pretty useful to get things quickly. As long as you don't try embedding a scripting language into it...
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20:09:26 <gamemanj> There's probably a better way, but it depends what language your esolang interpreter is written in
20:10:13 <haavard> It's worked pretty well so far, but it only checks stdout/stderr output. I'd love to be able to monitor performance improvements/regressions, but that complicates things a lot
20:10:21 <haavard> FWIW, the interpreter is written in C
20:15:54 <gamemanj> Perhaps consider a define to load & run the test suite from a file (alternating code/input/output) then write out the test times to another file?
20:16:09 <gamemanj> That way you don't end up covering binary start times, which will always be off on the first test,
20:16:15 <gamemanj> etcetc.
20:16:36 <gamemanj> (There's some complex stuff about caching which I don't think anybody entirely understands)
20:17:14 <gamemanj> (Maybe there should be a sysfs interface for finding out about - and potentially adding to - the cache...)
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20:18:36 <haavard> I feel like I'm gonna spend more time creating a test system than improving the interpreter
20:33:03 <quintopia> @tell boily USPS is chatting with Postes Canada to find out why this package was returned to me. They'll get back to me by Sep. 8. Is this too long to wait for redress y/n?
20:33:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:34:50 <gamemanj> haavard: That's true. You'd probably spend more time configuring any test system you get than the interpreter, anyway.
20:35:36 <gamemanj> haavard: So, you'd probably end up spending more time either way than if you stick with the shell script...
20:36:25 <haavard> Yeah, I'm sticking with the basic shell script for now. The only thing it lacks is performance testing, anyway
20:37:46 <gamemanj> Easily doable just with a few additional lines in the program itself to check the time at the start & end.
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20:55:07 <int-e> Somehow I think Cindercone is getting hacked.
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21:03:01 <izabera> what's the expected run time of a program that mmaps a 4gb file on a machine with less than 4gb free ram, and then writes a byte in 1 million random positions on that file?
21:03:38 <izabera> with a 5700rpm hdd
21:05:38 <gamemanj> Around about 8.2zorks. The realtime values depend on, for starters, HDD density, kernel version, and magic.
21:06:06 <izabera> i don't know how much magic i get
21:06:09 <izabera> how do i test that?
21:06:24 <gamemanj> Oh, no, it's not how much magic.
21:06:35 <gamemanj> It's just magic itself provides the answer. Kind of.
21:06:45 * izabera has a lot to learn
21:06:57 <gamemanj> ...in all seriousness, though, IDK? Try it and find out! :)
21:08:12 <gamemanj> I'm pretty sure HDD density and kernel version are major factors, but so are things like "what else is currently causing HDD usage" and "what other programs does the kernel consider a priority..."
21:08:52 <gamemanj> Like, if you were running two copies of this program, you'd get different results.
21:13:05 <int-e> What's the actual read granularity of modern drives? I imagine it could be larger than the typical 4kb page size...
21:14:44 <pikhq> It depends on the drive, but most commonly it's 4k on new spinning rust.
21:15:19 <int-e> anyway if it were 4kb, then you'd be loading about 1.47GB of data... if that fits in the RAM and the read heads don't have to move you're looking at about half an hour. In practice, I wouldn't be surprised to be off by a factor of 4 in either direction, and possibly more.
21:16:02 <int-e> The real answer is to measure, not guess.
21:16:05 <izabera> i'm not reading in
21:16:22 <int-e> the kernel will read in
21:16:36 <izabera> well ok but it can discard each page as soon as it's read
21:16:54 <int-e> and that's the slow part... writing out can be delayed and done in a nice escalator algorithm fashion so I expect it will actually be quite a bit faster.
21:17:02 <int-e> izabera: it won't.
21:17:24 <pikhq> It won't unless you specifically tell it to with madvise.
21:17:26 <int-e> and since you're going to read each sector approximately e times, it's actually worthwhile to keep them around
21:17:32 <izabera> ok let's try with madvise
21:17:55 <int-e> s/sectore/4kb block/
21:18:31 <pikhq> If you say MADV_DONTNEED each time it still probably *won't* immediately flush to disk.
21:19:23 <int-e> Hmm, are MADV_DONTNEED pages zeroed eagerly?
21:19:42 <izabera> what's the difference between MADV_FREE and MADV_DONTNEED
21:19:50 <izabera> the man page isn't clear about it
21:20:01 <int-e> (just realiizing that I know dangerously little about the specifics of Linux' memory management)
21:20:39 <pikhq> int-e: They're not zeroed *at all*.
21:21:07 <int-e> pikhq: afaiui there's a pool of zeroed pages for mmap of /dev/zero.
21:21:35 <pikhq> MADV_DONTNEED only informs the kernel that a given memory range won't be accessed soon, so the kernel is free to discard the in-memory page (in which case reads will trigger a load from the backing store).
21:21:42 <int-e> which is very useful because the C library likes to satsify large calloc requests that way
21:22:03 <int-e> (and malloc... not clearing pages would produce data leaks)
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21:22:47 <pikhq> MADV_FREE does MADV_DONTNEED, but if it discards the in-memory page it will zero-fill on demand (i.e. COW a zero page) instead of loading from backing store.
21:23:17 <pikhq> MADV_DONTNEED also works on any memory mapping, while MADV_FREE only works on private anonymous pages.
21:24:03 <izabera> pikhq: that's totally not in the man page
21:24:18 <izabera> oh it is
21:24:23 <pikhq> So: MADV_DONTNEED is a minor potential optimization for reducing the working set. MADV_FREE is usable by a malloc's free() implementation.
21:24:27 <pikhq> :)
21:24:34 <shachaf> U MADV
21:24:38 <shachaf> hth
21:24:54 <int-e> shachaf: you're just as helpful as usual
21:25:04 <shachaf> It doesn't have the same feel to it now that elliott is gone.
21:25:40 <izabera> would MADV_DONTDUMP also improve performance somehow?
21:26:02 <pikhq> Only when you're crashing.
21:26:09 <shachaf> int-e: Really? I think that's a lot less helpful than usual.
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21:26:53 <shachaf> I couldn't take participate in this conversation on my phone, anyway.
21:27:06 <int-e> shachaf: I believe that you only add "hth" when whatever you say is not, actually, very helpful.
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21:27:37 <shachaf> Well, that's the standard usage in this channel.
21:27:41 <int-e> which is perfectly fine, btw
21:27:53 <shachaf> Sometimes I put it on helpful things, though.
21:27:59 * izabera tries with MADV_RANDOM
21:28:05 <shachaf> Gotta keep people on their toes, right?
21:28:34 <pikhq> izabera: The situation you describe would best fit MADV_RANDOM, yeah.
21:30:34 <int-e> hmm, I wonder whether it would be worthwhile to make a list of 1000 random addresses, tell the kernel that they will be needed using MADV_WILLNEED, and then start modifying the bytes...
21:30:56 <int-e> ...the theory being that this gives the kernel an opportunity to schedule the disk reads nicely
21:31:13 <shachaf> Oh, do you know the addresses in advance?
21:31:45 <int-e> shachaf: it's just chunking
21:32:56 <int-e> basically, instead of generating a random address for each write access, I would generate a few in advance, then write.
21:33:10 <int-e> this may not be possible in all cases.
21:41:38 <int-e> and I also have no clue whether it actually pays off... it's a matter of magic.
21:42:35 <shachaf> mmap is slightly scow
21:47:42 <int-e> grrrr @mercurial... why does a hg revert -a not clear the resolution status of files
21:48:14 <int-e> shachaf: why is that?
21:48:33 <shachaf> Hm.
21:48:55 <shachaf> It blocks the whole thread when there's a page fault, so it's unusable if you implement your own threading.
21:49:43 <int-e> well that means you don't like any virtual memory management at all
21:49:54 <shachaf> Probably.
21:50:11 <shachaf> Or I want it to integrate with my userspace threads better.
21:50:57 <int-e> use OS threads.
21:51:12 <gamemanj> If you're worried about page faults, just have a thread controlling access to the memory, and then use FIFOs to send commands to/from it.
21:51:21 <gamemanj> How will you allocate memory for these FIFOs? mmap, of course...
21:51:33 <gamemanj> page faults take up time, that's the nature of page faults.
21:52:18 <int-e> I see no sane other way. The thing that causes the page fault is a plain CPU instruction... So whatever alternative instructions you want to have executed while the page is loaded, the kernel will have to know about. That's what OS threads are for.
21:52:52 <shachaf> Well, asynchronous page faults could be an option.
21:53:37 <gamemanj> When a page fault is executing, your program is in the middle of an instruction.
21:53:40 <int-e> I think you'd have to talk to CPU desgners about that.
21:53:43 <gamemanj> There's not really any better API that is possible.
21:55:16 <int-e> It should be possible to have instructions that check whether a page is currently mapped. and I could imagine triggering some sort of "soft" page fault as well [arguably madvise fills that niche already].
21:55:42 <int-e> But it needs serious effort and I'm not convinced it's worth it.
21:55:56 <shachaf> Checking whether a page is currently mapped has a race condition, of course.
21:56:03 <shachaf> Unless that instruction is mlock or something.
21:56:16 <shachaf> Er, never mind, "instruction".
21:56:22 <gamemanj> By that, do you mean that the page can be unmapped before you actually do anything with it?
21:56:54 <int-e> And with Linux, you can have page faults on any memory access anyway. Code is loaded using mmap, and basically anything can be swapped.
21:57:17 <gamemanj> To put it simply... If you are working on a system where the memory is managed for you, expect the memory to be managed for you.
21:57:59 <shachaf> Well, I'd like my RTS to manage my memory, not the kernel.
21:58:14 <shachaf> Or at least I have to have it do that.
21:58:23 <shachaf> My thoughts are not coherent right now.
21:58:44 <gamemanj> Well, I'm sure there's some way to coerce the kernel with some specific obscure features.
21:59:09 <gamemanj> And by "coerce" I mean "make it so page faults are not a thing, ever, unless you are using mmap for file IO"
22:00:00 <int-e> presumably mlock (shachaf mentioned it) goes a long way in that direction
22:00:22 <gamemanj> When what more is there to say? :)
22:00:25 <gamemanj> *Then
22:01:13 <int-e> gamemanj: rhetorical questions are dangerous on here... they tend to get answered.
22:01:48 <gamemanj> Then why haven't pigs started to fly?
22:01:51 * gamemanj looks out of the window
22:01:58 <int-e> gamemanj: physics!
22:02:10 <gamemanj> I was hoping pigs would start to fly. :(
22:02:32 <int-e> gamemanj: I guess a catapult would do the trick
22:02:38 <int-e> gamemanj: or an airplane
22:03:52 <gamemanj> "Delivery on receipt of one (1) English pound to the first person who walks to <geolocation> with a picture of a pig on an aeroplane - preferably piloting it."
22:04:06 <gamemanj> ...would be what I was writing if I was living in the 1900's.
22:05:12 <gamemanj> Of course, the person would just fly the aeroplane there,
22:05:28 <gamemanj> obviously piloting it,
22:05:38 <gamemanj> and then walk about it a bit so as to meet the second requirement.
22:05:50 <gamemanj> *first requirement, not second.
22:06:17 <gamemanj> And then they'd ask for two pounds just because they cheated the system.
22:07:16 <Jafet> it would be nice to have asynchronous L2 caches
22:07:47 <int-e> hyperthreading
22:08:08 <int-e> I mean, to some extent this idea is implemented
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22:08:39 <Jafet> I wonder if you can detect this by pinning pairs of hyperthreads so that each one wakes up when the other faults
22:09:49 <int-e> yes, hyperthreads *are* a target for side channel attacks
22:10:11 * Zarutian wonders what the fuck 'hyper'-threads are.
22:10:19 <int-e> (not quite what you said, but this has real world security implications)
22:10:32 <int-e> Zarutian: several threads running on a single core
22:10:36 <izabera> fun thing: try truncating a file that's being mmaped by someone else
22:10:44 <shachaf> hyperthreads are tg
22:10:57 <alercah> Zarutian: hyperthreads are when a single processor interleaves computations on multiple threads as if it were two separate CPUs
22:10:58 <Zarutian> int-e: how is that diffrent from usual multithreading?
22:11:09 <izabera> it causes a bus error in the process that mmaped that file
22:11:11 <alercah> Zarutian: it's hardware-level
22:11:16 <int-e> Zarutian: the idea is that each thread will suffer from latencies and not use all execution units, so two threads can better use the core.
22:11:19 <izabera> is there even any way to detect that before it happens?
22:11:25 <Zarutian> alercah: oh, an never works fast.
22:11:30 <int-e> Zarutian: more traditionally, threads would be one per core.
22:12:19 <Zarutian> int-e: hyperthreads each seems to suffer from the combined latencies of two or more threads.
22:12:25 <int-e> Zarutian: from a logical point of view there is no difference to normal multithreading (that's pretty much the point really).
22:12:51 <int-e> Zarutian: they are designed to improve total throughput.
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22:13:07 <int-e> they will slow down individual threads (hopefully only slightly)
22:14:08 <Zarutian> int-e: total throughbut yes, overall slowdown much more noticable. (At least in soft-hard realtime applications such as interactive A/V processing)
22:15:23 <int-e> yes.
22:15:48 <int-e> it's application specific. I care a lot about make -j wallclock time and then hyperthreading is actually a good thing
22:17:51 <int-e> and in principle a kernel could reserve a whole core for realtime threads (reducing latencies) and use hyperthreading for batch threads (improving throughput). Is that done?
22:17:54 <Zarutian> isnt make mostly IO bound and that to mass storage?
22:18:26 <int-e> It depends. Recompiling stuff (after editing a file) tends to be served from the fs cache.
22:18:29 <Zarutian> int-e: I think hyperthreading is just turned on by default without any regard of this issues.
22:18:34 <Jafet> make is mostly the-build-tools-it-runs-bound.
22:19:30 <int-e> I'm mainly talking about make because it's what I use for parallelization of those other tools.
22:20:03 <Jafet> linux probably assumes that people who set up real-time systems know how to pin them to cpus.
22:20:51 <Jafet> and how to come up with scheduling priorities that don't lock up the whole system.
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22:42:56 <moon___> 76.1.72.128 at port 5138 << little telnet based chat im working on, it already has nicknames and so far only one bug i can find which might just be microsoft telnet being wierd
22:44:42 <myname> irc already is a little telnet based chat
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22:45:09 <moon___> ik lol, im just writing it for fun
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23:00:23 <tswett> Here's a vague question.
23:00:28 <tswett> Suppose I have a group presentation.
23:00:38 <tswett> How can I write a nice machine-readable proof that the group it presents is finite?
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23:01:39 <tswett> There's a decision problem there, of course: given a group presentation, determine whether or not the presented group is finite.
23:01:56 <tswett> Is that decision problem even semidecidable in either direction?
23:02:12 <int-e> hmmmm.
23:02:24 <tswett> To prove that the group given by a presentation is finite, you can get part of the way by specifying a multiplication table for the group.
23:02:29 <int-e> "presentation" is the thing with generators and equations, right?
23:02:33 <tswett> Yeah.
23:02:42 <tswett> It's easy to verify that the group given by the multiplication table has all the generators and satisfies all the equations.
23:02:53 <int-e> it
23:03:06 <int-e> it's tempting to think that finiteness is semidecidable :P
23:03:13 <int-e> but probably wrong.
23:03:55 <tswett> I think I've got it. Yes, it's semidecidable.
23:04:06 <int-e> yeah.
23:04:11 <tswett> Suppose that the generated group is, in fact, finite. Then there's a proof that it's finite, consisting of...
23:04:22 <int-e> lots of equational proofs
23:04:44 <tswett> A multiplication table, where every element of the multiplication table is written in terms of the generators.
23:04:55 <tswett> And...
23:05:04 <int-e> I shouldn't have guessed wrong in the first place... from my theoretical background this should've been immediately obvious. lala
23:05:07 <tswett> Each generator must be present as one of the elements of the multiplication table.
23:05:27 <tswett> And finally, prove that each of the equations implied by the multiplication table follows from the presentation.
23:05:34 <tswett> Righto.
23:06:19 <tswett> That's not necessarily a very concise proof, though.
23:06:36 <int-e> but it settles the question
23:07:17 <tswett> But I'm wondering how to write a *nice* machine-readable proof that the generated group is finite.
23:09:36 <tswett> Here's a group presentation written in terse notation:
23:09:41 <tswett> ss; tt; ststststst
23:09:45 <tswett> Whoops, lemme try again.
23:09:48 <tswett> ss; ttt; ststststst
23:10:41 <tswett> According to this page, that group presentation is for A5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group
23:10:56 <tswett> But A5 has 60 elements.
23:11:05 <tswett> So its multiplication table has 3600 entries.
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23:12:15 <tswett> What's a "nice" way, then, to prove that the generated group is finite?
23:16:04 <int-e> well, you can reduce the multiplication table size; you only need to be able to multiply by generators and their inverses
23:17:31 <tswett> Hmm. http://mathoverflow.net/questions/7721/what-methods-exist-to-prove-that-a-finitely-presented-group-is-finite
23:17:37 <int-e> or perhaps you can produce a complete list of suffixes that are each equivalent to a shorter one
23:17:57 <int-e> and then I'd investigate (Knuth-Bendix) completion in this context
23:18:37 <int-e> (hmm, prefixes are conceptually easier)
23:19:28 <izabera> /whois ________________
23:19:50 <int-e> (I had not looked at the link when I suggested Knuth-Bendix completion)
23:21:48 <int-e> I guess the main point of doing completion would be to actually find equational proofs.
23:21:52 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tietze_transformations - maybe you could prove that a group is finite by using Tietze transformations to turn its presentation into one that's "obviously" finite.
23:23:06 <tswett> Are there any finitely presented groups which are infinite, but where every element has finite order?
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23:34:19 <boily> `wisdom
23:34:23 <boily> @massages-loud
23:34:23 <lambdabot> quintopia said 3h 1m 20s ago: USPS is chatting with Postes Canada to find out why this package was returned to me. They'll get back to me by Sep. 8. Is this too long to wait for redress y/n?
23:34:35 <HackEgo> hockey//Hockey is okey, but parsley is gharsley.
23:35:08 <tswett> I guess one "easy" way to prove that a finitely presented group is finite is by showing that every expression longer than a certain length is equivalent to a shorter one.
23:35:30 <boily> @tell quintopia quinthellopia. I'll be on vacation between September 3 and September 18 inclusive. Like, really on vacation. Like, on another continent. If you could resend after that, that'd be great. I'll be home at that time.
23:35:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:36:15 <tswett> Like, consider this group presentation in terse notation:
23:36:16 <tswett> aa
23:36:32 <boily> tswellott. aa?
23:36:39 <tswett> It's a group presentation.
23:36:44 <int-e> tswett: I think I pretty much suggested this
23:36:47 <quintopia> helloily. if you'd rather pick it up in person, come meet me at niagara falls on october 9th...
23:36:50 <tswett> int-e: right.
23:37:19 <tswett> Every expression for that group presentation contains one of these four subexpressions: aa, aa', a'a, a'a'
23:37:25 <tswett> Each of which is equivalent to e.
23:37:26 <boily> niagara falls is what... 9 hours from here?
23:38:09 <quintopia> probs. but it's at least twice that from here, so i'm doing most of the work here. besides, i'll be there anyway :P
23:38:18 <boily> which is a good argument :D
23:38:47 <tswett> Man, this is turning out to be a bit of a tricky problem.
23:38:57 <tswett> Here's a different problem...
23:40:15 <quintopia> istm that "group presentation" doesn't have its usual meaning here...
23:40:42 <int-e> "m", hmm
23:41:10 <tswett> Prove that the additive group of the integers (characterized as the initial ring) is freely generated by 1.
23:41:12 <int-e> quintopia: aa means aa = e, or a = a^-1.
23:41:43 <int-e> as an abelian group?
23:41:54 <tswett> Yes.
23:41:54 <int-e> oh wait, nonsense
23:42:04 <int-e> it's cyclic anyway
23:42:17 <tswett> That the additive abelian group of the integers is the abelian group freely generated by 1.
23:42:45 <quintopia> int-e: very different from a group of people working together to research, organize, and present, in speech form, some information to a larger group
23:43:12 <int-e> quintopia: AH, that didn't occur to me at all, thanks
23:43:34 <int-e> quintopia: so what does "m" in "istm" stand for?
23:43:38 <tswett> Memorialize.
23:43:40 <quintopia> me
23:43:59 <int-e> oh. "it", not "I".
23:44:23 <int-e> That's where I went wrong. (mislead by "istr")
23:44:33 <int-e> or misled
23:44:52 <quintopia> that's what 4la's are for: mizzling
23:45:09 <int-e> meddling
23:45:34 <quintopia> is in mislington bile
23:46:55 <tswett> iimb
23:47:22 <int-e> "if I may believe"
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02:10:49 <oerjan> @tell jafet <Jafet> I wonder how many terminals display that correctly. <-- it made the tunes logs show as one line in my browser from that point onwards
02:10:49 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:12:01 <oerjan> at least vim handled it fine.
02:14:14 <trn> http://i.imgur.com/IXrvECO.jpg
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02:52:09 <moonythedwarf> X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE! $H+H*
02:52:36 <moonythedwarf> ^that does mericals to the logs of some bots
02:52:42 <pikhq> Well that's just not very nice.
03:03:23 <Zarutian> what are mericals?
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04:08:27 <Jafet> I wonder if the eicar test files are in the blockchain somewhere.
04:08:49 <Jafet> well, there's probably already actual malware in the blockchain somewhere
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05:33:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49073&oldid=19995 * Weux082690 * (+3110) /* Computational class */
05:34:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49074&oldid=49073 * Weux082690 * (+1) /* Computational class */ copyedit
05:41:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49075&oldid=49074 * Weux082690 * (-46) /* Computational class */ Removing repitition
06:02:24 <Jafet> @messages-good
06:02:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 51m 34s ago: <Jafet> I wonder how many terminals display that correctly. <-- it made the tunes logs show as one line in my browser from that point onwards
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07:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> It's weird when you stumble across an interesting author that you want to readf
07:02:29 <hppavilion[1]> One you've never heard of and that you haven't read anything by
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07:03:11 <hppavilion[1]> Then realize that they were big and important and wrote a book that has influenced the world indirectly (perhaps by inspiring a tribute work or a movie)
07:03:21 <hppavilion[1]> In this case, I found the Andromeda Strain
07:03:37 <hppavilion[1]> By Michael Crichton
07:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> Then the following (unrelated) book, The Terminal Man
07:03:53 <hppavilion[1]> Then I went to see what else he wrote
07:04:04 <hppavilion[1]> And he's the guy who made the book Jurassic Park
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07:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_science_fiction_writers includes 9MOTHER9HORSE9EYES9
07:10:29 <hppavilion[1]> A reddittor who publishes creepypasta
07:15:51 <izabera> turns out the entry barrier to have your own wikipedia page isn't that high
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07:43:07 <Jafet> the american reddit, I presume.
07:43:34 <izabera> how many reddits are there?
07:44:05 <myname> one
07:47:58 <Jafet> you can't simultaneously apply the one reddit and ignore the other three reddits.
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07:50:54 <Jafet> hmm, the time cube advocacy site no longer exists.
07:51:38 <myname> i like r/fifthworldproblems
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07:57:28 <izabera> r/baduk !
08:10:29 <oerjan> Jafet: i think i saw some link that may have been to a mirror the other day.
08:11:32 <hppavilion[1]> In the 1986 film "The Transformers: The Movie", Unicron was played by Orson Welles
08:12:33 <oerjan> hm, i guess that must have been his last role...
08:12:49 <oerjan> (he died in 1985)
08:13:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...weird. Perhaps he sent in a message from beyond the space-time continuum, as he did for The Juice Media when scolding us for treating 1984 as an instruction manual for the NSA?
08:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> I love finding the wiki for a franchise and seeing that it's a MediaWiki instead of a Wikia subdomain
08:14:42 <oerjan> a film is usually made a bit before it's released, hppavilion[1]
08:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well yeah, that too
08:16:16 <oerjan> girl genius: larana's dad, best villain?
08:16:23 <hppavilion[1]> Though, the wiki I found seems to be... unofficial
08:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> It looks like the information is legit
08:16:35 <oerjan> also does that count as nsfw around your parts
08:16:55 <hppavilion[1]> But... well, "The levitation trick gets The Fallen all The Ladies at parties."
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08:50:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to try to read Time Cube
09:09:12 <oerjan> R.I.P. hppavilion[1]'s brain
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09:39:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Refrigerator™ | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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09:57:54 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
09:57:58 <hppavilion[1]> In the Cars franchise
09:58:04 <hppavilion[1]> Is the Pope Car a Popemobile?
09:58:35 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, no, he was actually IN Cars 2
09:59:07 <hppavilion[1]> Just a normal car (but with a hat), but he does RIDE in the Popemobile
09:59:27 <gamemanj> meta-cars
09:59:46 <gamemanj> ...must inevitably lead to meta-meta-cars...
10:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: How do we protect the Popemobile?
10:00:25 <hppavilion[1]> I don't even want to know what Cars 9/11 was like
10:00:31 <hppavilion[1]> Don't make me think about it
10:04:39 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, there's something called "Satanic Reversal" (I guess that 12:20 becomes 2012 or something?)
10:05:04 <hppavilion[1]> "In Soviet Hell, acid mines YOU!"
10:12:05 <izabera> how high are you right now
10:17:16 <gamemanj> Presumably, he's... as high as the pope.
10:22:15 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Higher than the pope's hat?
10:22:22 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Define "high"
10:22:36 <hppavilion[1]> If anything, I'm the opposite; this is me when I'm /not/ on speed
10:22:50 <hppavilion[1]> (also, slightly sleep-deprived)
10:23:20 <hppavilion[1]> Here's a new academic motto
10:23:26 <hppavilion[1]> "Time makes scholars of us all"
10:24:23 <gamemanj> By whose definition of "scholar"?
10:24:57 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: By the definition of "knows a lot about something most people don't know a lot about"
10:26:44 <hppavilion[1]> The meaning being that things which are just common knowledge today will become the stuff that only a small group of people have comparable levels of knowledge on in a few hundred years
10:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> Nobody will care about the Trump presidential campaign a few generations down the road if he loses; most of the people who have even heard of him might wonder what his position was on funding the Apollo missions (that may be a slight exaggeration, but only slight)
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10:55:33 <izabera> NOOOOOO torrentz :(
11:04:07 * gamemanj sees no torrents
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11:15:31 <boily> `wisdom
11:15:47 <HackEgo> abnf//Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthogonal-compatibility purposes.
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12:12:19 <Jafet> “Volume 5 – Syntactic Algorithms (as of 2015, estimated for release in 2025)” — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming
12:12:47 <Jafet> so it looks like this publication is going to be about everything except compilers.
12:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> If english is going to have Spelling Reform, can we also do Grammar Reform?
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12:41:12 <hppavilion[1]> Google trends seems to have changed their layout
12:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Criticism_and_controversy
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12:51:51 <hppavilion[1]> ...wow
12:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> the IOC tries to forbid anybody anywhere from making GIFs of the games during the games
12:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, it includes after the games
12:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> Someone needs to inform the IOC that this is the internet, and they can kindly fuck the fuck off
12:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> you care too much about these things
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13:10:03 <Jafet> this is well-known: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2016/06/07/olympic-committee-trademark-protection/id=69739/
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14:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> My GOD this week is going well for anyone who doesn't want trump
14:53:32 <izabera> fwiw it's great in europe
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14:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
14:58:51 <izabera> just move here already
14:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> In Wyoming, each house seat represents 526000 people
14:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: That's the plan
14:59:07 <hppavilion[1]> In Montanna, it's almost 1000000
14:59:37 <hppavilion[1]> I conclude that Montanna has the lowest absolute voter power of any state, as house seats are directly linked to electoral weight
15:00:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Of course, when you account for swinginess, Nevada is the most powerful)
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15:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> The University of Arkansas has called 100% of US presidential races correctly
15:22:46 <gamemanj> In which case, they are behind a conspiracy. It is clear.
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15:36:59 <izabera> wait wait
15:37:03 <izabera> there was an octopus
15:37:13 <izabera> that could predict the result of football matches
15:37:24 <izabera> are they employing the same technique in arkansas?
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19:25:46 <int-e> @tell oerjan thanks for suggesting stackage-update the other day, it's so much faster than its cabal counterpart!
19:25:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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22:58:01 <Zarutian> I am still trying to understand how a cyclic bittag system is turing complete. Anyone care to enlighten me?
23:00:34 <Sgeo__> `ping
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23:10:25 <fizzie> Zarutian: If you mean bitwise cyclic tag, by virtue of being able to emulate any cyclic tag system with a binary alphabet, which can further emulate any tag system. Or so they claim, anyway. I certainly haven't spent any time thinking about it in detail.
23:11:42 <Zarutian> bitwise indeed it is.
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23:30:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tag system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49076&oldid=12501 * Fizzie * (+233) Convert to <ref>erences + add Minsky 1961.
23:30:35 <fizzie> Just so you know, I went and enabled the 'Cite' extension.
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23:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, how many years did that end up taking
2016-08-06
00:01:29 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Four and a bit.
00:01:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean since the wiki got started
00:02:24 <fizzie> Well, I don't remember when that was. But elliott said something about going to install it in 2012.
00:03:41 <fizzie> I still wouldn't have done it except that they bundled it into the MediaWiki distribution a while ago, which meant installing it was a one-line edit to LocalSettings.
00:08:20 <fizzie> Maybe around 2020 or so I'll get around to Math.
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00:46:19 <quintopia> Zarutian: fizzie nailed it. BCT can emulate CT can emulate any post canonical system
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00:46:50 <quintopia> anyone watching the opening ceremony
00:47:10 <Zarutian> the what now?
00:47:20 <fizzie> The big sports thing.
00:47:32 <Zarutian> "Here we open up these new box!" is what I thought of
00:47:37 <quintopia> the biggest athletic event of the year
00:47:40 <fizzie> That's an unboxing.
00:48:42 <fizzie> There's a "Finnish people in London" facebook group, I know they're watching it in some scandinavian bar.
00:48:46 <Zarutian> quintopia: I have an permanent filter that filters out any and all sport news
00:49:09 <quintopia> Zarutian: impressive. i don't even know how you would set up such a thing.
00:49:33 <quintopia> Zarutian: nonetheless, the opening ceremony is not a sporting event, but rather a performance and a parade.
00:49:34 <Zarutian> quintopia: naah, it is more of an mental one.
00:49:39 <quintopia> the performance is usually worth watching
00:49:58 <Zarutian> my one exception is curling
00:51:11 <quintopia> so you tuned to sochi in 2014?
00:52:06 <Zarutian> nope, just found youtube (or other stored video streaming site) video of the curling
00:53:02 <quintopia> ah
00:53:14 <quintopia> why curling specifically?
00:53:20 <quintopia> did you play?
00:53:34 <Zarutian> nope, just low to watch the absurdness of it
00:53:41 <Zarutian> s/low/love/
00:54:06 <quintopia> ...yet you don't tune in for synchronized swimming or dressage? :P
00:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> can't beat the cycle sprint for absurdity
00:54:23 <quintopia> dressage beats cycle sprint for absurdity
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00:54:30 <quintopia> helloerjan
00:54:39 <Phantom_Hoover> dressage is just horses prancing around
00:54:44 <oerjan> hellopia
00:54:47 <quintopia> yes it is
00:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cycle sprint is game theory conspiring to make a cycling race about who can cycle the slowest
00:55:22 <oerjan> @messages-good
00:55:22 <lambdabot> int-e said 5h 29m 35s ago: thanks for suggesting stackage-update the other day, it's so much faster than its cabal counterpart!
00:55:25 <quintopia> okay, back in the 1900s, for a year or so, motorboating was an olympic sport. boats driving in circles.
00:56:08 <fizzie> oerjan: I installed Extension:Cite hth hand etc
00:56:52 <oerjan> wat
00:57:01 <fizzie> The thing that lets you <ref>.
00:57:05 <oerjan> aha
00:57:59 <fizzie> (I'm advertising this to people I think might care about citations.)
00:58:23 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: the game theory aspect could be negated by the invention of uniforms and bikes that channel air into the person behind you, if they would allow that...
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01:15:31 <quintopia> brazil has a lot more singable and danceable anthem than average, i should think
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01:41:27 <quintopia> that dnsmask looks familiar
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02:12:54 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Nobody will care about the Trump presidential campaign a few generations down the road if he loses; most of the people who have even heard of him might wonder what his position was on funding the Apollo missions (that may be a slight exaggeration, but only slight)
02:13:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i hereby point you at "Diana: Warrior Princess" hth
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02:14:23 <oerjan> (disclaimer: never played it, only heard the legends. which somehow seems appropriate.)
02:16:06 <oerjan> of course it my be so old by now that hppavilion[1] gets a meta-experience from it.
02:16:47 <oerjan> wtf hppavilion[1] has been idle for an hour
02:16:51 <oerjan> stupid silent channel
02:17:15 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] if you ping out before seeing what i said, see the logs.
02:17:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:17:37 <hppavilion[1]> Hellu
02:17:39 <hppavilion[1]> It didn't beep
02:17:43 <hppavilion[1]> @massages-oud
02:17:43 <lambdabot> oerjan said 28s ago: if you ping out before seeing what i said, see the logs.
02:17:48 <oerjan> oh?
02:18:17 <oerjan> are you one of those silly people who only get pinged when their nick is at the start of a line
02:18:24 <oerjan> if so, welcome to the club
02:18:48 <oerjan> no wait, i _did_ use it at the start of a line
02:20:33 <oerjan> you know, after this year they really need a new version.
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03:03:15 <izabera> http://sorting.at/ look how cool this is
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03:51:10 <oerjan> . o O ( new rule: hppavilion[1] doesn't get to bring up mainstream news in the channel )
03:51:24 <hppavilion[1]> :(
03:51:26 <oerjan> it's in . o O ( ) because i'm only tempted
03:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> Why not?
03:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> How about tributarystream news?
03:51:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you do a lot of it, and it's all depressing :P
03:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> Ah :P
03:54:26 <zzo38> GPL3 says "If the Program specifies that a proxy can decide which future versions of the GNU General Public License can be used, that proxy's public statement of acceptance of a version permanently authorizes you to choose that version for the Program." I think this might be useful for protecting business interests, although the proxy should always authorize it if they do not have a good reason not to, and if the company goes defunct, they should
04:04:19 <pikhq> The proxy feature in the GPLv3 is one of its best features.
04:05:12 * izabera gets her sarcasm detector
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04:08:33 <zzo38> I doubt it is of much use unless you are running a business, but for a business it looks like a good feature.
04:12:26 <zzo38> You can just omit "or later version" and omit the proxy too, but then it can be problem if there are new versions of GPL that can be good and then they cannot be used. If you do add "or later version" then the business does not have full control over the licensing of the software they are selling, and that can be a different problem. With the proxy, you can avoid both problems.
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04:15:24 <oerjan> . o O ( can you be your own proxy )
04:16:21 <zzo38> I would expect so; I do not see anything that says that you can't.
04:19:15 <pikhq> Though if you are a copyright holder, who needs a proxy?
04:19:20 <pikhq> You can dictate terms.
04:21:17 <zzo38> In case there are multiple copyright holders I suppose, or in case the copyright holder is dead.
04:22:44 <alercah> pikhq: I assume the intent is to declare yourself as the proxy for your program so that you can control icensing on derivatives?
04:22:48 <alercah> *licensing
04:23:12 <pikhq> alercah: Except you can only control licensing on derivatives made with the same terms, proxy and all.
04:23:32 <pikhq> Though, it's likely that would be the case for a decent number of projects.
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08:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> Define "pre-haste"
08:18:18 <oerjan> i think i'll wait until it's more urgent.
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09:34:32 <hppavilion[1]> I want https://vine.co/v/edXbvrwdpgE to be made into a techno remix
09:55:30 <izabera> https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/761188320042823680/pu/vid/1280x720/0lw0LhCnZzpop7sO.mp4 sfw
10:03:21 <gamemanj> where is this from
10:04:03 <gamemanj> also that tree grew fast
10:07:07 <izabera> it's the latest ending in the anime
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10:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> There's a rumor that Matt Smith will be back on Doctor Who
10:28:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Personally, the best thing EVER would be The Doctor regenerating... into (the appearance of) Amy Pond... but that doesn't seem likely)
10:28:35 <gamemanj> (the best thing ever would be the Doctor regenerating into the Master)
10:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> (They did fairly recently establish that Time Lords can flip genders on the regeneration, so I'm expecting The Doctor to be a woman fairly soon)
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11:17:30 <myname> anybody can tell me what to look for if i want to find stuff about the _real_ mahjong and not these pair finding solitaire games?
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13:22:13 <boily> @metar CYUL
13:22:13 <lambdabot> CYUL 061200Z 28014KT 15SM FEW010 BKN070 23/19 A2965 RMK CF1ACC6 CF TR SLP041 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
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15:33:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AshuraTheHedgehog * New user account
15:51:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AshuraTheHedgehog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49077 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (+565) Created page with "'''''<big>Under construction.</big>''''' These are '''all''' of my Brainfuck derivatives: == BF-M == Brainfuck with a memory cell. +, -, >, <, ., ,. [, and ] are unchanged...."
15:56:03 <myname> i wouldn't be proud of that
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16:37:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49078&oldid=33564 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (+234) Added my attempt.
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18:25:18 <zzo38> If you are betting at roulette in American casino and have unlimited time, and you have $1000 but you need $2000 then what strategy is best? The answer in this case is to bet everything on black (or on red, or odd, or even). But how will the strategy differ if you need only $1500 instead, or if you need $3456 instead? What changes if there is a maximum bet imposed, or if you are betting at crap instead of roulette?
18:26:50 <int-e> if I have all the time I need why don't I just put it into a bank account :P
18:28:39 <int-e> And can we simplify this to a fair coin throw?
18:29:46 <int-e> though, perhaps not... because that would make it a zero sum game, and as long as you never overshoot your target, you'll have a 50% chance of reaching $2k and a 50% chance of going broke, regardless of your strategy.
18:30:12 <int-e> (just a simple expected value computation)
18:30:38 <int-e> "zero sum" is the wrong term, I mean expected earnings are zero.
18:32:57 <int-e> $1500 is still boring; you can just bet $500 (on one of the 18/37 chances) all the time.
18:36:35 <int-e> But for $2500, is it better to bet $500, then $1000, or vice versa?
18:37:17 <zzo38> The chance of winning is less than 50% regardless of what strategy is used. The game is memoryless, and you cannot use bank interest, other games, asking other people for help, comp bonuses, cheating, angling, etc.
18:37:35 <zzo38> And you have those good points too. I don't know what is best for $2500.
18:43:15 <zzo38> I believe you about $1500 if the game is roulette at least; but at craps I don't know because the betting is much more complicated.
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18:45:24 <zzo38> (I'm not sure that these complications change much, although the odds and so on seem to be more confusing, and changing bets is sometimes possible, and even bets are also sometimes possible as auxiliary bets.)
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18:47:36 <int-e> apparently the greedy approach wins out
18:54:10 <int-e> (I get a 38.2% chance for greedy, and a 37.6% chance for the non-greedy strategy, of reaching $2500)
18:54:25 <zzo38> OK
18:55:00 <int-e> assuming 18/37 odds of winning and 19/37 odds of losing
18:56:20 <zzo38> More strange restrictions than a maximum bet would be to require the bet to be a prime number of dollars. (This restrictions is not actually used at any casino as far as I know, though.)
18:57:11 <zzo38> Or, to disallow any bet to be the same amount as any previous bet (also something that does not exist as far as I know). Or both restrictions together.
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19:21:13 <Augure> Anyone using tarot?
19:21:49 <zzo38> I have no tarot cards. I know a few (but not much) about it.
19:22:15 <int-e> `welcome Augure
19:22:25 <int-e> HackEgo: c'mon
19:22:43 <HackEgo> Augure: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:22:47 <zzo38> What I know is that a standard deck has 78 cards, being fourteen in each minor suit (rods, swords, cups, and coins; these are the Latin suits, some are French suited), and twenty-one trumps, and one Fool or Excuse (also sometimes considered a trump).
19:23:20 <zzo38> Also in some decks the coins have pentagrams on them; this is irrelevant, they are still the same suit of coins.
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19:25:55 <zzo38> HackEgo is 182 seconds idle it says
19:27:24 <zzo38> int-e: Just type the correct output yourself if you know what it is
19:27:46 <Augure> Oh sorry guys ah ah ;)
19:28:47 <zzo38> Augure: We are unlikely to answer your questions, but you can ask if you wish I suppose; it would probably better to asking someone else I think, though.
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19:30:36 <int-e> zzo38: it did reply
19:30:46 <zzo38> O yes it did.
19:30:55 <zzo38> Why is it sometimes slow though?
19:31:09 <zzo38> Sometimes it is fast, and sometimes very slow.
19:31:21 <zzo38> And it seems sometimes you get error messages that should not occur.
19:32:57 <int-e> I think it's slow because it's sharing a host with too many other VMs... possibly doing stupid stuff like cryptocurrency mining, password cracking and the like
19:34:43 <zzo38> O, OK
19:39:22 <int-e> (As far as I recall, HackEgo is running on one of those $35 for a life time VMs at Cloud at Cost... and overloading the hosts is pretty much the only way that this can be a sustainable business.)
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19:40:42 <int-e> Oh and of course there will be no people handling issues... abuse, VMs running amok (you're not supposed to have long-running CPU intensive jobs) etc.
19:40:50 * int-e shrugs
19:42:30 <zzo38> Maybe you should get your own computer that you can put it in?
19:45:03 <fizzie> int-e: It's one of those, yes. Although it's some higher-tier offering than the $35 one.
19:45:53 <fizzie> 2G RAM and so on.
19:46:18 <int-e> zzo38: I'm already paying for lambdabot's VM (and doing it gladly, but I don't want to do that for two bots).
19:48:01 <zzo38> O, OK
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19:53:54 <fizzie> The same system is running the wiki as well.
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21:22:19 <izabera> can we talk for a moment about the man who attacked a police station with a machete in belgium?
21:22:25 <izabera> how fucking stupid is that
21:22:34 <FireFly> quite a lot
21:22:56 <izabera> how hard is it to get a gun in belgium?
21:23:19 <FireFly> Maybe it's more about making a statement
21:23:27 <izabera> what statement?
21:23:43 <FireFly> the Gävle goat got torched one year by someone firing a fire arrow into it while being dressed up.. there's probably easier ways to torch it
21:23:55 <FireFly> but it's kind of more notable that way
21:24:19 <izabera> but he was shot dead before even managing to kill one police officer
21:24:34 <izabera> i can't think of anything more inefficient than that
21:25:04 <izabera> ok maybe if you blow yourself up /in a desert/...
21:26:26 <Zarutian> they dont have anti-riot-foam? (Basically uhu glue or equiv forced through an areosolizer)
21:26:49 <izabera> where can i get a ton of that?
21:27:06 <zzo38> Maybe they want to die without too much police investigations?
21:32:31 <int-e> izabera: could be a suicide by proxy thing, rather than poltical
21:33:10 <Zarutian> izabera: hardware stores and general stores? Just take the areosolizer (must be of metal) of an spraycan, make a pressure container that has that plus ports for four of those sodastream/whipped-cream CO2 charges. Take the glue and put it in the pressure container, use four CO2 charges.
21:34:22 <izabera> you should start selling it
21:35:51 <izabera> i don't even know what to think of that suicide by proxy thing
21:35:58 <izabera> reading about it for the first time now
21:38:39 <int-e> Hmm, I've read the term somewhere, I didn't know it was born out of a religious loophole.
21:45:24 <zzo38> `danddreclist 81
21:45:37 <HackEgo> danddreclist 81: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
21:51:15 <zzo38> I hope that I can somehow to convince them that the tin cups are magic and to trick them to go there just before they fall down and make noise. If they try to dispel it after they fall and make the noise, they will fail to dispel it, because the cups are not magic!
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21:57:55 <zzo38> While in the prison cell, with no items or magic (except for a few short lengths of rope), I would have to figure out how to confuse them and lead them astray.
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22:45:12 <quintopia> hello
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23:57:10 <quintopia> ick my left cursor key has gone all mushy
23:57:15 <quintopia> helloerjan
23:57:59 <oerjan> hellopia
23:58:39 <oerjan> <myname> anybody can tell me what to look for if i want to find stuff about the _real_ mahjong and not these pair finding solitaire games? <-- i assume boily knows, and possibly zzo38.
2016-08-07
00:00:07 <zzo38> It also depend what kind of mahjong game there is many variants, such as Japanese game, or Chinese game. The Japanese game is popular in many parts of the world including in Japan.
00:00:59 <quintopia> it would be sad if the japanese didn't like the japanese one
00:01:20 <oerjan> improvements i'd like for freenode: to stop resetting the time on bans, and to _not_ reset idle time over pingout quit/joins...
00:01:22 <quintopia> oerjan: isn't "impact" the worst word ever
00:01:41 <oerjan> quintopia: all dinosaurs agree with you
00:01:52 <quintopia> oerjan: not that usage. that one is fine.
00:02:12 <oerjan> are you saying they weren't impacted by it
00:02:14 <quintopia> the other one, as a synonym for "affect" or "effect"
00:02:24 <myname> who would've guessed the japanese version is popular in japan
00:02:35 <quintopia> i'm saying they were mostly not impacted, yes
00:02:42 <quintopia> the earth was definitely impacted
00:02:53 <quintopia> which had an effect on the animals living at the time
00:03:06 <oerjan> well it could be worse. they could have been effected by it.
00:03:28 <quintopia> the ones who are alive now--basically were
00:03:38 <quintopia> molars can be impacted
00:03:42 * oerjan once corrected someone on wikipedia who overcorrected affect/effect
00:03:43 <quintopia> educational outcomes should not be
00:04:16 <oerjan> quintopia: i think you missed the part where i misused "effected" hth
00:04:42 <oerjan> or maybe it works in a different sense, barely.
00:05:27 <quintopia> oerjan: i assume you meant in the sense of "to cause to come into being" hth
00:05:30 <quintopia> *assumed
00:06:14 <quintopia> anyway, you can misuse afect/effect all you want, just don't replace them with "impact" hthem
00:06:28 <quintopia> why is my f key spasming today
00:07:01 <Zarutian> quintopia: keyboard gunk
00:08:14 <oerjan> a small gunk civilization between the f and g keys
00:09:07 <oerjan> soon they will spread all under the keyboard, but carefully learn to avoid the area right under the keys.
00:09:25 <oerjan> *learn to carefully
00:10:49 * oerjan realizes his brain incorrectly corrected spasming to spamming
00:11:08 <oerjan> which is a bit opposite in this case.
00:12:30 <Zarutian> hmm.. talking about spam, what do you people do with speculative invocies?
00:13:28 <oerjan> fortunately, i don't get any tdh
00:13:36 <quintopia> request discounts
00:14:07 <quintopia> and insist that i receive the services i'm paying for
00:14:08 <oerjan> (i guess because i don't buy on the internet)
00:14:29 <Zarutian> I usually mail back an rubber cheque, in both senses of the word
00:14:29 <quintopia> then threaten lawsuits when the service is not provided
00:14:48 <quintopia> you writr it on an eraser?
00:15:06 <Zarutian> the guy selling me the rubber says its rather elastic payment method
00:15:46 <quintopia> i don't even know what an elastic payment method is when taken seriously
00:15:57 * oerjan gives Zarutian a medium low swat -----###
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00:31:20 <oerjan> <FireFly> the Gävle goat got torched one year [...] <-- . o O ( have they considered using a different material )
00:32:02 <FireFly> They've been trying to fireproof it with some spray
00:32:11 <FireFly> I think with moderate success?
00:32:20 <FireFly> but I think it burned down in the end anyway
00:32:49 <FireFly> "2013 As in 2006 and 2007, the straw used to build the goat has been soaked in anti-flammable liquid to prevent it from burning in the event of an arson attack.[48] The inauguration ceremony took place on 1 December. On 21 December the goat was burned down.[49]"
00:32:56 <FireFly> Hmm
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00:48:27 <oerjan> FireFly: wiktionary's audio play failed on me again. is "ström" pronounced with a short or a long ö?
00:48:39 <FireFly> short ö
00:48:50 <oerjan> thanks, i'll add ipa
00:48:53 <FireFly> long m I suppose, but I'm not good at telling consonantal length
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00:49:41 <oerjan> well afaik swedish is like norwegian there, either long vowel or long consonant in stressed syllables.
00:50:08 <Zarutian> oerjan: svo þú ert að læra sænsku?
00:51:39 <oerjan> Zarutian: nah i already understand swedish well enough, i just wondered how the name "Ström" in the article about the Gävle goat was pronounced.
00:52:07 <oerjan> FireFly: um, that's not different, is it :P
00:52:18 <FireFly> nah, it's the same
00:52:39 <FireFly> Like most (all?) names named after geographical features like that.. at least all I can think of
00:56:26 <oerjan> i think the wiktionary standard is sort of to not include consonant length for the (phonemic) ipa in such cases, though.
00:57:35 <oerjan> Zarutian: i have been trying to get a more accurate pronunciation because i've been learning some swedish songs, though.
00:58:19 <oerjan> but most sounds are not that different from norwegian.
00:58:36 <oerjan> (sj and a being the most obvious exceptions)
01:00:05 <oerjan> wiktionary's swedish pronunciation guide looks much better than the norwegian.
01:00:24 <FireFly> Hmm, what article is that?
01:00:34 <oerjan> (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swedish_pronunciation)
01:00:56 <oerjan> although the audio play failed for me there, too.
01:01:09 <oerjan> (i think IE doesn't like very short audio clips, or something.)
01:02:17 <oerjan> as in, it plays, but cuts off nearly all of it. and then goes into some swirling animation mode.
01:03:43 <oerjan> (_wikipedia's_ norwegian pronunciation guide is good, though... but they're inconsistent, and i almost got into an edit war with someone who changed to the wiktionary style)
01:04:09 <oerjan> (only didn't because i didn't bother to revert back)
01:04:29 <FireFly> Hmm, does norwegian have retroflex consonants? for rs, rt, etc
01:05:03 <oerjan> ok all trivial except for /œ/ as the short ö
01:05:30 <oerjan> FireFly: yep, most dialects (the exception being south western ones with guttural rs)
01:06:00 <oerjan> *r's
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01:11:37 <oerjan> FireFly: another question. is it common to vary "är" between /æ:r/ and /e:/ dependent on whether a vowel or consonant is following? i noticed a song doing this, but wiktionary only describes those as "clear" vs. "everyday" pronunciation.
01:12:02 <oerjan> (Wennersten's Det Vakraste fwiw)
01:12:34 <oerjan> *V
01:12:56 <FireFly> I don't think so, no. I'd use /e:/ in typical everyday speech even before a word starting with a vowel sound
01:13:14 <FireFly> "dé é inte [...]" "it isn't [...]"
01:13:26 <oerjan> well i meant not necessarily in everyday speech, but in some intermediate style
01:13:47 <FireFly> Well, I don't know
01:13:52 <FireFly> Maybe
01:13:52 <oerjan> ok
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01:18:12 <oerjan> now this audio _did_ play right, probably because it was slightly longer, but only on first try :P
01:18:32 <oerjan> (the pitch "anden vs. anden" example)
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01:53:46 <oerjan> our spam filter rules are holding pretty well :)
01:54:31 <oerjan> heaps of attempts a day ago
01:55:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Instead of limiting the wiki to defence, I think that it should be equipped for retaliation and the occasional preemptitive strike
01:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Perhaps we should r&d the ability for the wiki to invade the dreams of our adversaries and give them constant nightmares- and the occasional sleep paralysis- until they are afraid to sleep?)
01:56:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Prefrigerator™ | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
01:58:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't think this world can survive if people keep a general habit of escalating conflicts unnecessarily hth
01:58:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It can if we crush our adversaries completely, to the point that they can never retaliate
02:00:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the problem is that even after you win, your own side will re-split into a new conflict, precisely because you've become addicted to conflict.
02:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Hm...
02:00:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Perhaps we can use religion to keep everyone in line?
02:01:00 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that has a mixed success rate i think :P
02:05:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: We'll include a subset that is compatible with Atheism to keep them(/us) on board- drop the dogma, keep a lightweight set of traditions and rituals and require that a solid 80% of the moral laws be maintained
02:07:52 <zzo38> Don't force religion on everyone, either.
02:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> religion for some, miniature american flags for others
02:13:33 <zzo38> Also not everyone live in United States anyways.
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02:13:46 <zzo38> And, not everyone does or should be same religious.
02:14:04 <zzo38> There are many different kinds, and we can learn from everything a bit.
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02:34:02 <B1ood6od> Long time no see, how's the chat?
02:35:44 <zzo38> OK
02:36:18 <B1ood6od> Anything interesting in the last few months?
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02:45:25 <zzo38> Look in the logs and wiki and see.
02:45:38 <zzo38> I am not on during 100% of all the time and do not remember 100% of the things
02:50:58 <izabera> what should a library do in case of memory exhaustion?
02:51:17 <izabera> what's the sane behaviour?
02:52:00 <izabera> 1. do nothing, set errno to ENOMEM, return
02:52:04 <izabera> 2. abort
02:52:29 <izabera> 3. free all the data structures it previously allocated
02:52:49 <zzo38> Probably can depend on what the function is, I suppose?
02:52:53 <izabera> and by previously i mean other function calls, unrelated to the one that failed due to memory exhaustion
02:53:00 <izabera> zzo38: a bignum library
02:54:48 <izabera> e.g. this generates a random bignum number https://github.com/maandree/libzahl/blob/a02ba0b0602fb1d6caa5ce332a0c3483c3e4c4aa/src/zrand.c
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02:55:12 <izabera> and if it fails it frees all the structures
02:55:25 <izabera> even the ones used by other bignums
02:55:56 <izabera> i just fail to see the point
02:56:22 <zzo38> I also fail to see the point
02:57:09 <izabera> so what would be the sane thing to do?
03:00:57 <zzo38> It should be changed so that the return type is not void, and therefore it can tell you if it is OK or not.
03:01:19 <izabera> that sounds reasonable
03:06:42 <hppavilion[1]> Has anybody ever written a constitution in the style of a man page?
03:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, to REALLY keep everyone in line, we'll need to also have people know that they prefer it this way
03:08:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: of course, i don't think keeping everyone in line is a sane thing to aim for.
03:08:33 <hppavilion[1]> So we'll discretely fund a rebellion- with our own people in charge- that will have the job of rebelling, but having all rebels live in shitty conditions so that only the most dedicated-to-the-cause people join and being sure to rebel badly
03:10:11 <oerjan> that sounds a little bit like 1984 hth
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03:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If we want to go full-on bureaucratic hell, we can make the funding of the rebellion open and legit
03:13:48 <hppavilion[1]> Maintained by the Department of the Rebellion
03:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> Quick question: Does the US congress qualify as a parliament?
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03:21:32 <oerjan> i thought it did hth
03:22:13 <oerjan> of course that doesn't make the us have parliamentarism
03:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The Wikipedia page for Parliaments doesn't mention it at all, and the page for Congress mentions it twice- the first time is "parliamentary procedure" which is probably just saying that it's in the style done by parliaments, the second time is "parliamentary privilege" which is just the common term for a thing /usually/ applied to Parliament members but that extends to non-Parliament countries in general (in theory, it could
03:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> probably extend to an Oligarchy)
03:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> There does appear to be a distinction between "Parliamentary governments" and "Presidential governments", and I assume the US falls under the latter, but it's not inconceivable that a government with a parliament isn't a parliamentary government (or even that a country can be somewhere in between)
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03:32:12 <oerjan> norway used to be in between between 1814 and 188something
03:32:44 <oerjan> then the parliament got the bright idea to use our equivalent of an impeachment procedure to enforce parliamentarism.
03:33:31 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, the Australian Government once shut down
03:33:41 <oerjan> "Although some restrict the use of the word parliament to parliamentary systems, it is also commonly used to describe the legislature in presidential systems (i.e. the French parliament), even where it is not in the official name."
03:34:17 <hppavilion[1]> The Queen responded by dissolving parliament
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03:35:42 <oerjan> norway's king cannot actually dissolve parliament, i guess it's one of the many features we borrowed from the us constitution.
03:35:49 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, the B1ood6od is here?
03:35:54 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: I have some B1ood for you
03:36:26 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( What is the government of #esoteric? )
03:38:15 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( Surveillance state with an absolute oligarchy (like an absolute monarchy, but with more than one monarch that can contradict the others- with no proper mechanism for resolving contradictions beyond reversal wars and friendly agreement))
03:38:19 <hppavilion[1]> )
03:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> Participation is involuntary while in the channel, and can be involuntary elsewhere if the oligarchs decide as such (though the surveillance state doesn't extend beyond the borders)
03:40:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oligarchs can, of course, single-handedly introduce a new oligarch without the consent of others
03:40:08 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm pretty sure I understand IRC)
03:40:32 <oerjan> of course it extends beyond the borders, we borrow intelligence from google hth
03:40:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course
03:41:48 <oerjan> technically there is a possible hierarchy of oligarchs, but i don't think there's any difference between the 3 currently active ones hth
03:42:23 <oerjan> (it depends on chanserv flag settings)
03:42:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The surveillance state can extend beyond the borders upon request by pooling state surveillance, and one of the major surveillors will respond to most queries on the drop of a hat and is basically the world's most powerful surveillance state
03:43:43 <oerjan> secondmost, don't forget the NSA hth
03:43:51 <oerjan> or wait, is that CIA
03:44:16 <hppavilion[1]> NSA is the one spying on everybody
03:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> CIA and FBI are still too powerful, but they aren't the ones collecting and storing EVERYONE's EVERYTHING
03:45:36 <hppavilion[1]> Oligarchs are specifically equipped with the powers to- quite easily- deport citizens, imprison or execute citizens, promote to an oligarch or specifically permit an individual to break a state-mandated Period of Silence, and at will modify the small set of standing laws
03:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> While not relevant in #esoteric, many similar governments permit Oligarchs- and only Oligarchs- to modify the Universal Psychic Message Broadcast
03:47:09 <hppavilion[1]> (in #esoteric, it's available to everyone)
03:47:53 <oerjan> despite rumors, we cannot actually execute citizens, we need to ask freenode staff for that hth
03:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Can't you permaban from #esoteric?
03:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> (I guess that's more of permanent deportation...)
03:48:48 <oerjan> that's what i thought.
03:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> #esoteric's oligarchs can even impose population control
03:50:15 <hppavilion[1]> Man, internet governments are horrifying
03:50:31 <alercah> ^
03:50:50 <alercah> especially when someone hacks the government and steals all the democracy
03:50:56 <alercah> or whatever happend to the DAO
03:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> DAO?
03:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_DAO_(organization)
03:54:14 <zzo38> Then, make Zenarchy.
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05:03:34 <B1ood6od2> I never did finish my lang
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05:28:48 <izabera> lazyass
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05:32:55 <oerjan> me neither!
05:33:06 <oerjan> well, mostly.
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06:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> I just went to Amazon and searched for something
06:20:52 <hppavilion[1]> I got a sponsorship at the top of the results
06:21:05 <hppavilion[1]> "SPONSORED BY ADMINTESTBRAND: Lorem Ipsum"
06:21:23 <oerjan> Sit Dolor Amet.
06:21:46 <myname> i'll take 5
06:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It gave real sponsorships related to my search though
06:22:52 <hppavilion[1]> (PETITION: Change the USA's motto to "Lorem Ipsum Sit Dolor Amet"
06:23:48 <myname> the hell did you searched for
06:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ... "My Little Pony'
06:24:41 <myname> well ...
06:24:44 <hppavilion[1]> Also, the capital of the US should be moved to Blackacre in Franklin
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12:13:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WolfgangTS * New user account
12:15:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49079 * WolfgangTS * (+2641) Pipefuck
12:20:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49080&oldid=49079 * WolfgangTS * (+581)
12:21:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:WolfgangTS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49081 * WolfgangTS * (+148) Created page with "== About me == I'm a developer, who really does nothing. I like JavaScript, and node. I like learning '''lots''' of languages, and making some too."
12:22:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:WolfgangTS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49082 * WolfgangTS * (+13) Created page with "Nothing here!"
12:23:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49083&oldid=49080 * WolfgangTS * (+0) /* Multiplication program */
12:27:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49084&oldid=49083 * WolfgangTS * (-14) /* Comments */
12:33:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49085&oldid=49084 * WolfgangTS * (+32) /* The tape */
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12:37:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49086&oldid=49085 * WolfgangTS * (-16) /* Multiplication program */
12:38:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49087&oldid=49086 * WolfgangTS * (-7) /* Computational Class */
12:39:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49088&oldid=49087 * WolfgangTS * (+11) /* Implementation */
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12:44:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49089&oldid=49088 * WolfgangTS * (+36)
12:46:07 <myname> he likes js and immediateöy creates a bf derivate
12:46:11 <myname> i don't like him
12:47:01 <izabera> immediateöy?
12:47:11 <myname> yeah, typo
12:47:15 <myname> happens
12:47:26 <izabera> how can you typo *that*?
12:47:37 <myname> on a german keyboard
12:48:06 <myname> l and ö are right next to each other
12:48:07 <izabera> shit haèèns
12:48:40 <myname> exacteöy (sic)
12:48:47 <izabera> why would anyone use ~ in pipefuck?
12:48:50 <myname> shit haüüens
12:48:52 <izabera> what is it useful for?
12:50:01 <izabera> ok i see
12:50:33 <myname> ~ is like f in befunge
12:50:44 <myname> basically, it is a worse befunge
12:51:11 <izabera> i think their examples shouldn't use 4 at t0 and 3 at t1
12:51:40 <izabera> wait, they can't be reached
12:51:44 <izabera> ok it's fine
12:52:36 <izabera> it's cool tho
12:52:46 <izabera> probably because i don't befunge
12:52:56 <myname> you should
12:53:21 <izabera> i still have to learn c++ properly
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12:53:42 <izabera> you know, priorities
12:53:48 * izabera is so responsible
12:53:53 <myname> lol c++
12:53:56 <myname> learn rust
12:54:08 <izabera> i don't like the name
12:54:27 <myname> c++ is like the worst language i could probably think of
12:54:29 <ybden> That's a bit of a silly reason
12:54:34 <ybden> And C++ is horrible
12:55:12 <izabera> are you guys implying that befunge > c++?
12:55:18 <ybden> I don't see how the first pipefuck example would work, if 'equal' means the same character
12:55:42 <myname> izabera: pretty close, but yeah
12:55:42 <ybden> since as soon as it finds the first space, it will randomly choose a space to teleport to
12:56:01 <izabera> it never finds a space
12:56:10 <ybden> izabera: howso?
12:56:20 <izabera> it finds \ and goes downwards
12:56:30 <ybden> oh, never mind me
12:56:38 <ybden> thought the first code block was in pipefuck
12:56:51 <izabera> it is..?
12:57:15 <ybden> no, it's in brainfuck
12:57:28 <izabera> oh that first block
12:57:41 <ybden> unless I'm on an old version of the page
12:57:43 * ybden refreshes
12:58:17 <izabera> when you say "the first code block" you should specify that you mean the one before the 2nd
12:58:20 <izabera> for clarity
12:58:26 <myname> lol
12:58:26 <ybden> Of course.
12:58:38 <ybden> I should really be more precise
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16:38:12 <Jafet> `unicode ALMOST EQUAL TO
16:38:31 <HackEgo> ​≈
16:38:39 <Jafet> `unicode APPROXIMATELY EQUAL TO
16:38:41 <HackEgo> ​≅
16:40:21 <izabera> WHY IS UNICODE SO LOUD??
16:42:31 <Jafet> `unicode small letter iota
16:42:39 <HackEgo> U+0269 LATIN SMALL LETTER IOTA \ UTF-8: c9 a9 UTF-16BE: 0269 Decimal: &#617; \ ɩ (Ɩ) \ Uppercase: U+0196 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0390 GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH DIALYTIKA AND TONOS \ UTF-8: ce 90 UTF-16BE: 0390 Decimal: &#912; \ ΐ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Dec
16:42:52 <Jafet> I guess ≅ is a reasonable approximation of ≈.
16:43:45 <Jafet> `unicode brakcet
16:43:51 <HackEgo> U+FE18 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET \ UTF-8: ef b8 98 UTF-16BE: fe18 Decimal: &#65048; \ ︘ \ Category: Pe (Punctuation, Close) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Decomposition: <vertical> 3017
16:51:30 <quintopia> izabera: for compression reasons
16:51:39 <izabera> makes sense
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18:04:54 <orin> `unicode NEITHER EXACTLY NOR APPROXIMATELY EQUAL TO
18:05:04 <HackEgo> No output.
18:06:04 <orin> `unicodde nor
18:06:05 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unicodde: not found
18:06:40 <orin> `unicode nor
18:06:42 <HackEgo> ​⊽
18:06:59 <orin> `unicode neither
18:07:02 <HackEgo> U+2247 NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO \ UTF-8: e2 89 87 UTF-16BE: 2247 Decimal: &#8775; \ ≇ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: 2245 0338 \ \ U+2270 NEITHER LESS-THAN NOR EQUAL TO \ UTF-8: e2 89 b0 UTF-16BE: 2270 Decimal: &#8816; \ ≰ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \
18:07:29 <orin> `unicode NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO
18:07:32 <HackEgo> No output.
18:08:09 <orin> `unicode NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO
18:08:11 <HackEgo> ​≇
18:15:25 <ybden> `unicode ALMOST BUT NOT QUITE ENTIRELY UNLIKE
18:15:29 <HackEgo> No output.
18:15:38 <ybden> bah
18:59:06 <quintopia> orin: pretty sure all the "neither" symbols are just some other symbol with a / through it
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20:29:48 <Jafet> combining neither overlay
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20:59:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49090&oldid=49078 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-1) /* AshuraTheHedgehog's attempt */ removed a colon
21:07:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49091&oldid=41646 * 12.161.214.178 * (+127) add filesizes
21:23:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AshuraTheHedgehog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49092&oldid=49077 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (+224) Finished table.
21:25:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AshuraTheHedgehog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49093&oldid=49092 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-7) Changed headers.
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21:42:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49094&oldid=49058 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-1) /* Input */ correction
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2016-08-08
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00:34:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49095&oldid=49089 * Darkrifts * (+1) Commens -> Comments. Comments section
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01:03:50 <izabera> poor thing
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01:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:91.231.140.161]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (anonymous users only, account creation disabled, email disabled): spambot; it can't get past the spam filter but it's rather spamming up the spam filter itself
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01:15:53 <FireFly> How ironic
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01:35:17 <derHummer> A CPU is essentially an abacus, no? You set a number on this row (mem location), another there, you operate on both numbers, you put the result on that row (register), you make a register of of other numbers (other mem locations) . . . both devices, abacus and CPU, are registers (registers of registers, ad infinitum); memory and a stepper processor.
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01:37:51 <derHummer> conceptually, elementary step-by-step processing, linear processing.
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01:44:30 <derHummer> aside from processing speed and RAM capacity, how is a CPU different from an abacus?
01:45:24 <ais523> derHummer: even the simplest CPUs have registers /and/ an ALU; an abacus just has registers
01:45:59 <ais523> and arithmetic/logic is up to the human user rather than implemented in the abacus
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01:49:59 <derHummer> you hire 1,000 abacus operators ... there's your CPU. ok, 900,000 operators ... 200 million (unemployment is high these days). Point is that conceoptually / functionally, we still have the step-by-step processing.
01:50:52 <derHummer> err, or the ALU, rather
01:51:40 <ais523> now I'm imagining what an abacus with an ALU would look like
01:51:53 <ais523> something like, when you had enough beads at the bottom of one column
01:52:02 <ais523> they'd rise up to the top and drop one bead from the next
01:52:13 <derHummer> yes, indeed
01:52:15 <ais523> that'd be a half-adder, one of the simplest arithmetic components
01:52:54 <derHummer> but any complexity could be implemented in a wire/bead abacus ... given enough care
01:53:14 <ais523> you'd need a power source
01:53:16 <ais523> but I think it's doable
01:53:19 <derHummer> s/complexity/algorithm/
01:53:40 <derHummer> the operator's finger
01:53:47 <ais523> I think you just end up inventing the Analytical Engine if you go too far along these lines, though, don't you?
01:56:39 <derHummer> something like that; essentially the key is writing down the algorithm; then you give one page of the book to each abacus operator. But that's just talking the mechanisms of the thing. But the concept, the functional idea, is the thing. What else is different about a CPU---leave aside the electronics.
01:57:17 <ais523> a modern CPU, or a conceptual one?
01:57:27 <derHummer> a modern CPU
01:57:36 <ais523> I'd say an abacus is an excellent analogue for a set of registers
01:57:43 <ais523> so the differences are all the things that aren't just registers
01:57:52 <ais523> instruction scheduling, caches, and the like
01:57:53 <derHummer> well, the concept informing a modern CPU. the von Neumann architecture
01:58:18 <ais523> does a CPU even have to know which memory architecture it's using?
01:58:43 <ais523> I mean, if it's using the same signals to communicate with code and with data, then it has to be von Neumann
01:58:48 <derHummer> for its own correct funtioning, yes, probabley
01:59:12 <ais523> but in general, an old/traditional CPU doesn't need to care about the details of how memory works
01:59:32 <ais523> look at the 6502 and old NES games; many of them had hardware which automatically swapped between multiple RAMs and ROMs
02:00:02 <ais523> exploiting the fact that the CPU didn't care that it was connected to memory, just that it'd get particular responses if it sent particular requests
02:00:59 <derHummer> yes, the hardware don't matter; not as far as correctness of computation schema
02:01:27 <ais523> I mean, to a certain extent, a system needn't /have/ a memory architecture, really
02:01:52 <ais523> I'm imagining a device that streams values to a CPU's memory read port
02:01:53 <derHummer> sliding beads on a wire is a "memory", no?
02:01:54 <ais523> from a recording
02:02:16 <ais523> yes, it's what's known as distributed memory, or as a register
02:02:22 <ais523> because it isn't addressable
02:02:31 <derHummer> yes, register
02:03:12 <derHummer> streaming values sounds like a punched tape, or ibm punched cards
02:03:45 <derHummer> but punched cards were the memory storage of the day ... the "floppy disks", lol
02:04:37 <derHummer> oops ... afk ... bbl ...
02:18:33 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Parser_Framework#Example compiling this example takes several seconds...
02:18:36 <izabera> time to learn yacc i guess
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03:59:45 <derHummer> The more complex the computation, the more powerful the computation. (solves more complex unknowns.) Sonds like a good axiom to come up with leading edge apps?
04:02:52 <alercah> hahaha
04:03:17 <derHummer> :) whut?
04:10:15 <Jafet> I only solve for real unknowns.
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04:48:10 <hppavilion[1]> ...huh
04:48:16 <hppavilion[1]> Everything eventually goes back to Bell Labs
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05:12:45 <hppavilion[1]> I was trying to figure out Cthulhu's family tree
05:12:49 <hppavilion[1]> I created infinite recursion
05:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> Figures
05:15:13 <orin> I'm watching the beach volleyball
05:15:43 <orin> is there an actual difference in the rules between beach and regular volleyball?
05:17:18 <alercah> if only there was some sort of encyclopedia that anyone could put this information on
05:17:22 <alercah> oh wait
05:17:25 <alercah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_volleyball#Rule_differences_between_beach_and_indoor
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06:26:39 <oerjan> the logs are informing me that shit haååens.
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06:53:36 <izabera> please recommend me a great pdf reader
06:54:09 <izabera> i usually use zathura which supports vi keys to navigate
06:54:36 <izabera> but it's being insanely slow with a pdf with almost 4k pages
06:55:14 <izabera> despite being based on mupdf, and mupdf renders that file instantly
06:56:45 <izabera> ooh mupdf has vi keys
06:56:52 <izabera> why did i use zathura at all?
06:58:12 <oerjan> it's a mystery
06:59:47 <izabera> ooh mupdf does very fancy transitions between pages when it's in presentation mode
06:59:54 <izabera> this is so nice
07:00:08 <izabera> and so useless
07:00:19 <izabera> ok i'll never use this, it just slows down things
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07:29:45 <oerjan> <ais523> I think you just end up inventing the Analytical Engine if you go too far along these lines, though, don't you? <-- . o O ( every sufficiently overengineered calculation device is indistinguishable from a computer )
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07:32:24 <oerjan> my jokes seem to be repelling their targets today.
07:36:46 <izabera> einstein developed a theory about space
07:36:50 <izabera> and it was about time too
07:47:40 <zzo38> Apostasy is not apostasy.
07:47:47 <oerjan> it was relatively fancy.
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11:52:04 <oerjan> helloily
11:54:44 <boily> hellørjan!
11:55:09 <oerjan> boily: what was it like when the time travellers had to flee the Morlocks, but couldn't agree on past vs. future?
11:56:33 <boily> eh?
11:56:46 <oerjan> it was a tense situation hth
11:57:05 * boily *THWACKS* oerjan. 0.95 shachafs.
11:57:17 <oerjan> darn i was hoping for more.
12:00:12 * int-e idly wonders where oerjan's standard timezone is currently located
12:00:30 <oerjan> @time oerjan
12:00:33 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Mon Aug 8 13:00:30 2016
12:00:39 <oerjan> hth
12:00:44 <int-e> (personally I'm somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic)
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12:00:51 <int-e> oerjan: that doesn't answer my question.
12:01:07 <oerjan> surprisingly enough, i got up at 7 AM today
12:01:30 <oerjan> it's one of those rare days of apparent synchronization.
12:01:35 <int-e> oh, synchornized for once
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12:08:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49096&oldid=8485 * Keymaker * (+958) Need help with a Black interpreter.
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13:43:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49097&oldid=41864 * Mihip * (-1243)
13:46:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wct]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49098&oldid=41871 * Mihip * (+138)
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13:50:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49099&oldid=49097 * Mihip * (+725) Added example
13:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49100&oldid=49099 * Mihip * (-8)
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17:34:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49101&oldid=47311 * Weux082690 * (+245) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ Emacs = Communism for Programmers
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19:16:55 <quintopia> hello
19:17:28 <shikhin> Hello.
19:18:12 <quintopia> whats new
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19:33:34 <int-e> hundreds of trillions of human skin cells, just today
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20:19:56 <int-e> Sigh, the GG story is branching out like a hydra. At this rate I will not live to see it finish.
20:20:51 <izabera> cut the dire necks first
20:20:53 <izabera> start from the top
20:20:55 <izabera> hth
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20:21:53 <int-e> I would but all they gave me is the "forward button", which is a very blunt tool.
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20:59:35 <hppavilion[2]> int-e: GG?
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22:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
22:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> I hate it how YouTube (though it may be the fault of the YouTubers, but I doubt it) has it so, if a video is uploaded in 720p60 or 1080p60, you can't watch it at normal 30fps in HD
22:29:44 <nortti> is there a reason to use 30fps aside from smaller file?
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23:52:28 <pikhq> nortti: Local hardware might be incapable of rendering at 30fps, but could at 60fps.
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2016-08-09
00:00:01 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
00:00:09 <hppavilion[1]> Drama going on in some of my online friends' lives
00:03:18 <pikhq> Oh dear.
00:04:36 <izabera> does someone know something specific that changed from posix 2008 to 2013?
00:06:06 -!- B1ood6od2 has joined.
00:07:09 <pikhq> Not off the top of my head, but any such changes should be minimal: 2013 merely had some corrigenda applied to 2008's text.
00:07:50 <izabera> i see
00:07:52 <izabera> thanks
00:09:45 -!- B1ood6od has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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00:28:19 <fizzie> izabera: "This 2013 Edition includes IEEE Std 1003.1-2008/Cor 1-2013 incorporated into IEEE Std 1003.1-2008 (the base document). The 2013 edition incorporates Technical Corrigendum 1 addressing problems discovered since the approval of the 2008 edition."
00:28:33 <fizzie> izabera: So you can just peruse the TC1: https://webstore.iec.ch/corrigenda/iso/isoiecieee9945-cor1%7Bed1.0%7Den.pdf
00:29:28 <fizzie> (321 pages might not quite count as "minimal" in an absolute sense, but maybe if measured as a fraction of the full thing.)
00:30:12 <izabera> thanks for that :O
00:34:43 <fizzie> Technically, I guess that's the ISO/IEC bizarro-universe variant of it -- that is, it's "ISO/IEC/IEEE 9945:2009 Technical Corridgendum 1" which you would apply as a patch to the "ISO/IEC/IEEE 9945:2009" base document, as opposed to being "IEEE Std 1003.1-2008/Cor 1-2013" which would apply to "IEEE Std 1003.1-2008".
00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> Why is everybody so upset about Wrath of Khan right now?
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00:54:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> int-e: GG? <-- girl genius hth
00:54:24 <oerjan> a very award-winning webcomic.
00:54:33 * izabera thought it was good game
00:55:01 <oerjan> no, around here that would be a TG game hth
00:55:43 <pikhq> fizzie: The text of the two documents are identical.
00:56:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, Adventure, Romance, MAD SCIENCE! (TM) hth
00:57:25 <oerjan> heh they have their own awards page
00:57:34 <hppavilion[1]> Oh right
00:57:58 <hppavilion[1]> TG?
00:58:03 <hppavilion[1]> (t... t... t...)
00:58:05 <oerjan> at least a couple of those hugos are not for GG but for comics back in the '70s...
00:58:06 <hppavilion[1]> Terrible Game?
00:58:08 <oerjan> `? tg
00:58:16 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
00:58:40 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
00:59:00 <hppavilion[1]> What's the easiest possible multiplayer game?
00:59:10 <oerjan> either phil foglio started _really_ young, or he's older than i thought.
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01:00:19 <oerjan>