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00:31:42 <Sgeo> I wonder if I can get kmc into Rebol...
00:32:16 <Sgeo> I think there may be some similarities to Kernel... although I don't quite understand bindology well enough
00:32:42 <Sgeo> ('Bindology' being Rebol's fancy term for how binding works)
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01:33:38 <zzo38> One limitation in SQLite is that extensions cannot add new commands entirely.
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01:36:02 <zzo38> Maybe it is not such a problem, although it would be nice to be able to create macros.
01:42:48 <elliott> does anyone here put their browser cache in /tmp
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02:16:42 <elliott> mmm the bfq io scheduler seems nice
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02:49:08 <Sgeo_> `run main = print $ let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2
02:49:13 <HackEgo> bash: main: command not found
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04:01:06 <Sgeo_> I was checking that my code was correct. Was trying to show that in a Rebol chatroom that has a bot that connects to ideone
04:01:28 <FreeFull> > let (+) = (Prelude.+) . succ in 2 + 2
04:02:25 <FreeFull> Wait, I don't know why that works
04:05:50 <Sgeo_> "Animation style, alternative to animated GIFs (see sample - works in Internet Explorer with plugin; also see tile-test)"
04:06:18 <Sgeo_> Yes, we should all install a REBOL plugin into our browsers to see animated graphics.
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04:09:54 <shachaf> mnoqy: i hugged kmc today "ur next" hth
04:10:21 <shachaf> (Except for the whole part where you don't want hugs? So I guess not.)
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04:15:20 <Lymia> Is this, like, a Lisp that actually uses M-expressions!?
04:16:06 <Sgeo_> I don't know what M-expressions were actually like, but I'm going to say probably not
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04:18:35 <Lymia> Precedence for bare-word operators...
04:19:30 <Lymia> This looks to be... a language that probably has very messy semantics.
04:22:42 <Sgeo_> Some things are messy, but I think some things are nice
04:32:33 <mnoqy> is that "sgeo wisdom"
04:32:41 <mnoqy> Sgeo_: can I have more "sgeo wisdom"
04:36:50 <Sgeo_> random/only ["yes" "no"]
04:49:25 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
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05:00:17 <FreeFull> > ((,) . succ $ 1 1) :: (Int, Int)
05:00:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(GHC.Types.Int, GHC.Types.Int)'
05:00:51 <FreeFull> Wait, I think I know why it doesn't work >_<
05:02:42 <FreeFull> I guess I still don't know haskell
05:03:13 <lambdabot> The function `(,)' is applied to three arguments,
05:04:05 <lambdabot> (Enum (a -> a), Num a) => a -> a -> a
05:05:52 <FreeFull> Yeah, of course that doesn't make sense
05:06:38 <Bike> what are you trying to do exactly
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05:36:01 <Sgeo_> If no one wrote an irc:// scheme for REBOL, maybe I should
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09:31:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of high-resolution monitors, Asus has just announced a 31.5" 3840x2160 (aka "4K") computer monitor -- that's 140 dpi, even if it's kind of overly big for many desktops. (Also it's probably going to cost a lot.)
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12:23:14 <Sgeo_> So, this spam claiming to be from FedEx has a subject line FedEx!!!
12:23:28 <Sgeo_> It's as though FedEx is really excited about itself
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13:42:01 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130601-electricity-is-fun.png
13:52:11 <fizzie> (It's what they have in Denmark, I understand.)
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14:02:03 <ion> FedExcited
14:09:23 <Sgeo_> I should watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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14:22:49 <oerjan> happy duplicate australian mailman list reminder day
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14:24:50 <Sgeo_> http://i.imgur.com/PL8ricO.jpg
14:25:21 <elliott> oerjan: huh, I got no australian reminders. just actual reminders.
14:26:29 <oerjan> wait, agora-* aren't australian?
14:27:06 <oerjan> hm i guess it doesn't count if they're dated june 1
14:27:07 <elliott> oerjan: oh well sure. but it's not an australian reminder unless it comes a day early.
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14:27:19 <elliott> I wonder why the australian list stopped sending reminders
14:27:26 <oerjan> ok then. but you also got a duplicate?
14:27:43 <elliott> or if I did then gmail lost the other
14:28:31 <oerjan> i didn't get one from yoyo, but i got one from yzma.clarkk.net and one from agoranomic.org, with the same named lists but in different order.
14:29:06 <oerjan> the lists themselves were @agoranomic.org in both cases.
14:30:30 <elliott> oerjan: ah. presumably because the lists moved recently
14:30:48 <oerjan> also, my back hurts with my laptop sitting on the sofa table :(
14:31:08 <elliott> laptop tip: there is no comfortable way to use a laptop
14:31:49 <oerjan> ...it worked well enough when sitting on the table of my old apartment, which was essentially a workbench
14:32:10 <oerjan> and of comfortable height with an ordinary chair
14:32:30 <elliott> have you tried putting it on your lap hth
14:32:50 <oerjan> yes. yesterday it got too hot for that, but i guess it hasn't warmed up yet.
14:33:38 <oerjan> oh and i think i'll have to wait until i've finished my breakfast.
14:34:21 <oerjan> anyway, i hope my initial hate for all the little annoying details of my new apartment subsides soon.
14:35:10 <oerjan> it of course does have that one huge pro: no housemates!
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14:35:19 <elliott> hey i was just about to ask about those.
14:36:31 <oerjan> otoh there's still construction work in the area, the fridge is (still) noisy, and some neighbor apparently has a dog.
14:38:07 <elliott> is this the same fridge, or do you have a fridge ghost haunting you
14:38:19 <oerjan> fridge ghost, clearly.
14:38:40 <oerjan> i am clearly having some kind of mystical attraction to noise hth
14:41:33 <oerjan> it's called "the law of attraction" in mystical circles. it says that you attract things you are passionate about, whether positively or negatively. at least i hope it includes positively as well.
14:42:58 <elliott> what if you are passionate about not being attracted?
14:43:28 <oerjan> then you're james randi and ruin the experience for everyone else hth
14:44:21 <oerjan> also, that's the obvious reason why science cannot prove this law hth (yes, i know of the other obvious reason)
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14:48:32 <oerjan> hexham attracts hexham
14:57:27 <oerjan> elliott: you may be delighted to know that yesterday IE got so t(h)rashy on my usual newspaper comic site that i actually installed google chrome. you may not be delighted that it didn't really help, and that the site itself is so trashy that many of the links (randomly) didn't work in chrome.
14:59:49 <oerjan> not that they _always_ work in IE either. especially the "like" button sometimes hangs up.
15:01:32 <elliott> oerjan: today chrome, tomorrow netbsd on toasters.
15:01:54 <oerjan> alas i don't have a toaster.
15:02:09 <elliott> yes, you know it's really bad when you start buying them just to run netbsd on them.
15:02:28 <elliott> ...you have a kettle right? i understand americans don't have the kinds of kettles we have and this disturbs me
15:02:53 <Taneb> My monitor keeps turning off and on
15:03:02 <oerjan> yes but i never use it and also haven't moved it over from the old apartment yet.
15:03:21 <elliott> you know what's great? toasters. highly recommended
15:03:44 <Sgeo_> I remember having the kettle discussion before. As far as I'm aware, a kettle is a thing that whistles when water is boiling
15:04:12 <Taneb> Sgeo_, those exists, but so do electric kettles
15:04:19 <Taneb> Which just turn themselves off
15:04:21 <oerjan> technically there may be a toaster in my store of things from the old house which i cannot bear even thinking about and don't you start like my dad who is purely by chance coming here tomorrow
15:04:57 <Sgeo_> Taneb, but how will you know when your water is done boiling?
15:04:57 <elliott> ...your dad is a fan of toasters?
15:05:09 <Taneb> Sgeo_, it sort of clicks
15:05:11 <oerjan> wait, it has to whistle? then i probably don't have one.
15:05:13 <Taneb> And a light goes off
15:05:18 <elliott> no it doesn't have to whistle
15:05:21 <elliott> if it whistles you have the wrong kind
15:05:28 <oerjan> it is generally kettle-shaped, though.
15:05:43 <elliott> the right kind is nice and reassuring and is part of the elite group of appliances that have soft power cords.
15:07:00 <oerjan> finest alumin(i)um, i suspect, which is why it wasn't brought over because somehow there was an impression the new apartment had an induction stove but it doesn't anyhow.
15:09:45 <elliott> it should be finest plastic
15:10:00 <elliott> i fear only Taneb truly understands kettles here
15:10:22 <Sgeo_> Wait, you can actually afford aluminum stuff? Isn't that insanely expensive?
15:11:13 <Taneb> elliott, one of my friends has the wrong kind, but he also has an AGA cooker so it is okay
15:11:24 <elliott> Taneb: i'm busy trying to understand Sgeo_'s statement
15:11:26 * Sgeo_ was vaguely trying to pretend to be from the past
15:11:52 <Taneb> elliott, it was addressed at oerjan
15:12:43 <Sgeo_> http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/elements/features/2010/blogging_the_periodic_table/aluminum_it_used_to_be_more_precious_than_gold.html etc etc
15:14:50 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think my dad uses toasters much.
15:15:18 <Taneb> elliott, can you help me learn Agda
15:15:57 <oerjan> Taneb: just put types everywhere, and values in the types hth
15:17:30 <oerjan> i do recall something about napoleon (I or III?) getting awesome aluminum plates
15:18:50 <Sgeo_> Article said that Napoleon III gave aluminum cutlery for guests, with gold cutlery being the lesser cutlery
15:19:03 <Sgeo_> " and the minor emperor Napoleon III reserved a prized set of aluminum cutlery for special guests at banquets. (Less favored guests used gold knives and forks.) "
15:19:15 <Sgeo_> There. I should do that instead of trying to rephrase
15:20:46 <oerjan> napoleon iii was quite a guy.
15:23:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, fun fact, in dwarf fortress aluminium is as valuable as platinum
15:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (doesn't aluminium look kind of drab when used for cutlery?)
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15:27:37 <oerjan> ""Above all, people adored Element 13's color and luster, which reminded them of the sparkle of gold and silver—a brand-new precious metal."
15:27:48 <oerjan> which means "no", i think.
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15:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe it's some modern surfacing thing they do that makes it look dull grey rather than actually shiny
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15:33:35 <oerjan> i was going to click the vanadium article, but it opens in a new window even with ctrl
15:34:04 <oerjan> which is of course a deadly sin (while opening in a new window without ctrl is only a grievous one.)
15:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i love vanadium because i can never remember anything whatsoever of interest about it
15:34:16 <Sgeo_> Try right-click and open in new tab?
15:34:21 <oerjan> which is pretty much why i wanted to click on it
15:34:55 <oerjan> Sgeo_: there's not actually a real link, it's flash
15:35:12 <elliott> gold cutlery seems kind of tacky
15:35:43 <Sgeo_> Oh, I didn't even notice the little period table. Have Flash set to click-to-play
15:36:34 * oerjan finds a proper link to it
15:37:05 <oerjan> little houses on the hillside, little houses made of gold
15:37:59 <oerjan> when the sea squirts have enough, we're doomed
15:40:35 <oerjan> but beware of the sea squirt vampires
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17:14:33 <Sgeo_> The Court Jester or Monty Python and the Holy Grail?
17:17:23 <fizzie> Monty Court and the Holy Jester.
17:17:45 <fizzie> That's when you set up your 3D system so that you get one movie on left eye and the other on right.
17:18:33 <shachaf> Sgeo_: The Court Jester hth
17:19:06 <shachaf> Bike: should i watch _Singin' in the Rain_
17:23:41 <shachaf> do you just answer yes to everything..............!
17:27:07 <shachaf> well then i guess i shouldn nt take movie adviçe from you!!
17:29:00 <fizzie> fungot: Movie adviçe please.
17:29:01 <fungot> fizzie: i've been somewhat frustrated on my first tries. i get this thing start installing, i'll come back to fnord
17:29:25 <oerjan> fungot: what about plan 9 from outer space?
17:29:26 <fungot> oerjan: i haven't tried it out in usenet for all to despise." with no bindings is valid.) comic 17 is fnord, young skywalker"
17:29:42 <oerjan> fungot: well usenet is almost dead anyway.
17:29:43 <fungot> oerjan: better still, haven't you got can't you make it ' x 3 works.
17:30:09 <shachaf> Bike: should i watch Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
17:30:20 <Bike> No, Taneb should.
17:30:33 <shachaf> should i watch _Nora's Hair Salon_
17:31:24 <Bike> Refer to previous mesage.
17:32:56 <Sgeo_> I should make a comparison thing between Rebol and Kernel to try to convince kmc to look at it >.>
17:33:08 <Sgeo_> And maybe not mention it before I do so
17:34:21 <shachaf> Make sure it has affine types.
17:34:26 <nortti> damn, camino browser has ceased developmenr
17:36:11 <oerjan> shachaf: spoiler: nora dies
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17:40:22 <Sgeo_> Guy in Rebol chat is raving about SpaceChem as an educational tool
17:40:33 <Sgeo_> (raving in a good way)
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17:59:36 <nortti> sorry? I can't understand you
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18:26:55 <oerjan> ok they're all on that irccloud.com thing except surma
18:28:08 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen ggherdov ever
18:28:16 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen ggherdov ever
18:28:24 <HackEgo> 2013-03-31 20:12:10: <ggherdov> oerjan: thankyou!
18:28:42 <oerjan> i suppose they were collateral damage
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18:33:10 <oerjan> perhaps someone klined everyone matching uid*
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18:39:56 <Sgeo_> Saw this in another channel
18:39:57 <Sgeo_> http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/
18:40:02 <Sgeo_> Don't know how real that is
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18:48:52 <phamiltiz> Can this be made shorter in an esoteric lang?
18:49:13 <phamiltiz> Input: http://pastebin.com/uwbmWGSz
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18:51:19 <phamiltiz> My perl script produces this output: http://pastebin.com/pnpsUgu5
18:52:11 <phamiltiz> How short can it be made in any Lang? :D
18:55:29 <phamiltiz> 0 bytes would not achieve the goal
18:55:53 <phamiltiz> You need code in order to run something
18:56:20 <Bike> just have an interpreter that interprets an empty string to do whatever your script does.
18:56:27 <AnotherTest> it's a language in which the empty program is defined to do exactly what you want of course
18:56:39 <phamiltiz> The point is not to use my script at all
18:57:09 <phamiltiz> I want to see if it can be made shorter in an esoteric Lang
18:57:23 <oerjan> i think it could make it shorten in _perl_, anyhow
18:58:02 <AnotherTest> I think you mean "can it be made shorter in an esolang that also does other (possibly) useful stuff"
18:58:08 <phamiltiz> What Lang could you make it shortest
18:58:22 <AnotherTest> well the language suggested earlier of course
18:59:00 <AnotherTest> but I think the length of your program will depend more on /how/ you write the code in this situation
18:59:43 <phamiltiz> Well it must generate the same output
18:59:46 <oerjan> hm haskell could be short if we assumed that exact format
19:00:20 <Bike> phamiltiz: the one where the empty program does what the script does.
19:01:02 <AnotherTest> Well if you removed all of the redundant statements and white-space, and made all identifiers really short (and eliminated all redundant identifiers), it would be shorter
19:01:30 <AnotherTest> nvm what's in the parenthesis, not always/usually correct
19:02:31 <Bike> you can probably do that with unix tools in in a line or two of line noise, i imagine
19:03:07 <AnotherTest> Well if you want to golf you might use something like Burlesque I guess, great language for that
19:03:07 <oerjan> :t map (head &&& length) group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . drop 2 . words) . lines
19:03:08 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b0 -> c0' with actual type `[b1]'
19:03:08 <lambdabot> In the return type of a call of `map'
19:03:08 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `map' is applied to too many arguments
19:03:31 <oerjan> :t map (stripPrefix "username:" . drop 2 . words) . lines
19:03:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Char' with actual type `String'
19:04:09 <Bike> phamiltiz: probably sed
19:04:41 <oerjan> :t map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines
19:05:02 <oerjan> :t map (head &&& length) group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines
19:05:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b0 -> c0' with actual type `[b1]'
19:05:03 <lambdabot> In the return type of a call of `map'
19:05:03 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `map' is applied to too many arguments
19:05:47 <oerjan> :t catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines
19:05:54 <oerjan> :t sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines
19:06:05 <oerjan> :t group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines
19:06:21 <oerjan> :t map (head &&& length) . group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines
19:06:49 <Bike> he's writing your script in haskell.
19:07:21 <phamiltiz> But how is he importing the input?
19:07:48 <oerjan> haven't got to that part yet
19:08:36 <oerjan> > map (head &&& length) . group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines $ "1.Vote (from:minestatus username:zsamkj address:174.1.** timeStamp:2012-04-30 20:10:51 -0700)\n2.Vote (from:minestatus username:revolutionxx2 address:50.129.** timeStamp:2012-04-30 20:11:02 -0700)"
19:08:37 <lambdabot> [("revolutionxx2",1),("zsamkj",1)]
19:09:43 <phamiltiz> The problem now would be to test all the 30 lines of input
19:10:00 <oerjan> well yes, can't get that into lambdabot easily
19:12:31 <oerjan> :t mapM_ putStrLn . map (\s -> head s ++ " occurs->" ++ show (length s)) (head &&& length) . group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines =<< getContents
19:12:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b0 -> [String]'
19:12:32 <lambdabot> In the return type of a call of `map'
19:12:48 <oerjan> :t mapM_ putStrLn . map (\s -> head s ++ " occurs->" ++ show (length s)) . group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines =<< getContents
19:15:22 <oerjan> gah cutting and pasting from irc isn't nice
19:16:29 <oerjan> i cannot manage to edit the form after pasting wrongly :(
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19:17:15 <oerjan> i assume it's because i'm on IE 8, oh well.
19:19:27 <oerjan> phamiltiz: the thing is pasting from irc doesn't get it correctly formatted and it wasn't a whole program anyway.
19:20:29 <phamiltiz> oerjan > map (head &&& length) . group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines $ "1.Vote (from:minestatus username:zsamkj address:174.1.** timeStamp:2012-04-30 20:10:51 -0700)\n2.Vote (from:minestatus username:revolutionxx2 address:50.129.** timeStamp:2012-04-30 20:11:02 -0700)"
19:20:55 <oerjan> ...we already tested that with lambdabot
19:21:31 <phamiltiz> What doesn't get formatted correctly?
19:21:43 -!- AnotherTest has left.
19:21:48 <phamiltiz> Because I sent you the input on pastebin?
19:22:35 <nooodl_> n%{' '/2=9>}%:x.|${0):0': '@.x\`{=}+,,' occurs->'\n}%
19:22:37 <Bike> why not download the raw paste to lambdabot and just run the haskell locally.
19:23:29 <oerjan> Bike: because lambdabot doesn't support downloading hth
19:23:39 <phamiltiz> No chance understanding that golf script
19:24:05 <Bike> oh, right, i meant hack ego.
19:24:11 <Bike> w/e they're all practically the same fucking bot
19:24:16 <nooodl_> i'll make an explanation thingy
19:25:05 <oerjan> phamiltiz: i managed to submit it but it's never finishing compiling
19:25:39 <oerjan> my guess is it has finished but my browser hasn't noticed
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19:27:20 <phamiltiz> nooodl_ how does your golf script take input?
19:27:38 <nooodl_> from stdin. there's no other way
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19:28:20 <oerjan> i have too many tabs open to close IE, and too little memory on this old laptop to open chrome (which, accidentally, i only installed yesterday)
19:28:49 <oerjan> however i have another way
19:29:19 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/test.hs
19:29:25 <HackEgo> 2013-06-01 19:29:24 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/test.hs [200/200] -> "test.hs" [1]
19:29:30 <phamiltiz> Nooodl_ so how does your golf script work
19:29:37 <olsner> IE fails to close if you have too many tabs open?
19:29:44 <oerjan> `run ghc --make test.hs
19:29:49 <HackEgo> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( test.hs, test.o ) \ \ test.hs:2:80: Not in scope: `group' \ \ test.hs:2:95: Not in scope: `catMaybes' \ \ test.hs:2:112: Not in scope: `stripPrefix'
19:30:13 <oerjan> olsner: no, but i don't want to reopen all of them afterwards.
19:30:24 <oerjan> no wonder it doesn't compile
19:30:44 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/test.hs
19:30:47 <HackEgo> 2013-06-01 19:30:46 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/test.hs [213/213] -> "test.hs.1" [1]
19:31:07 <oerjan> `run ghc --make test.hs
19:31:09 <nooodl_> http://bpaste.net/raw/oBwty2rsVEjLEHxO4SGu/
19:31:10 <HackEgo> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( test.hs, test.o ) \ \ test.hs:2:80: Not in scope: `group' \ \ test.hs:2:95: Not in scope: `catMaybes'
19:31:46 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/test.hs
19:31:48 <HackEgo> 2013-06-01 19:31:47 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/test.hs [250/250] -> "test.hs" [1]
19:31:49 <oerjan> `run ghc --make test.hs
19:32:17 <HackEgo> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( test.hs, test.o ) \ Linking test ...
19:32:21 <oerjan> this is the point where HackEgo dies, obvio... oh.
19:32:34 <nooodl_> in the final block i've just displayed the stack
19:33:22 <oerjan> goddamn you websites _no sane person_ wants links to open in a new window by default!
19:33:59 <oerjan> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz
19:34:02 <HackEgo> 2013-06-01 19:34:00 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz [2916] -> "raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz" [1]
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19:34:10 <zzo38> oerjan: Especially if you make it the left button for same window and middle button for new window
19:34:28 <oerjan> `run ./test <'raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz'
19:34:30 <HackEgo> Anonymous occurs->2 \ Baglex occurs->1 \ M3thud occurs->1 \ Mitzuki_Tsukashi occurs->1 \ Mo_Digger occurs->1 \ Organtrail occurs->1 \ RiceKnight occurs->1 \ Ryan2823 occurs->1 \ VolitionEos occurs->1 \ XxDarkAngel_xX occurs->1 \ counto1 occurs->1 \ dude1576 occurs->1 \ hungoverfurball occurs->1 \ jamesus occurs->2 \ jonathanklarlund occurs->1 \ kua
19:34:44 <oerjan> phamiltiz: looks good :)
19:34:58 <nooodl_> `fetch http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/golfscript.rb
19:35:00 <HackEgo> 2013-06-01 19:34:59 URL:http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/golfscript.rb [8834/8834] -> "golfscript.rb" [1]
19:35:28 <nooodl_> `echo "n%{' '/2=9>}%:x.|${0):0': '@.x\`{=}+,,' occurs->'\n}%" > test.gs
19:35:30 <HackEgo> "n%{' '/2=9>}%:x.|${0):0': '@.x\`{=}+,,' occurs->'\n}%" > test.gs
19:35:47 <nooodl_> `run echo "n%{' '/2=9>}%:x.|${0):0': '@.x\`{=}+,,' occurs->'\n}%" > test.gs
19:35:49 <HackEgo> bash: n%{' '/2=9>}%:x.|${0):0': '@.x\`{=}+,,' occurs->'\n}%: bad substitution
19:36:17 <nooodl_> `fetch http://bpaste.net/raw/C76Falgtu390Rz4jmqW6/
19:36:19 <HackEgo> 2013-06-01 19:36:18 URL:http://bpaste.net/raw/C76Falgtu390Rz4jmqW6/ [53/53] -> "index.html" [1]
19:36:52 <nooodl_> `run ruby golfscript.rb index.html <'raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz'
19:36:54 <HackEgo> bash: ruby: command not found
19:37:10 <nooodl_> `run rm index.html golfscript.rb
19:37:57 <oerjan> anyway i declare this to have reached the "it's possible" step where mathematicians customarily go back to bed
19:39:02 <oerjan> or in my case, to the fridge hth
19:40:09 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:42:22 <phamiltiz> J is a language for the mathematicians
19:44:40 <Bike> "Cognos · Bayesian Enhanced Strategic Trading · Fax Focus, Inc. · Hewlett Packard · Intel · Korea Telecom · Luen Thai · Maple Partners · Microsoft · Niagara Mohawk Power · Nikko Securities · Novell · Okada Denki Co. Ltd. · Pivotal Technologies · Syngenesis, Inc."
19:44:47 <Bike> one or more of those are possibly banks or bankoids
19:45:49 <olsner> those are all just categories in the functor of endobankoids
19:47:02 * itsy wonders how to contact Darkman
19:47:45 <Bike> the dark signal
19:49:27 <itsy> Obvious now you mention it. I've wasted so much time with the bat signal :-(
19:54:43 <oerjan> the problem with the dark signal is, it's dark hth
19:55:22 <oerjan> although ironically, bats can "see" it just fine.
19:56:44 <itsy> I assume Darkman can "see" it too?
19:57:00 <itsy> According to legend he was bitten by a bat.
19:57:16 <oerjan> if he's a bat. since batman is dark, it stands to reason darkman would be bat.
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20:40:59 <Bike> "OEvolve: OEvolve is an e-mail list for Objectivists and others interested in the proper application of evolutionary principles to diet, fitness, and health. Its purpose is to facilitate discussion about the practical sciences of cooking, nutrition, fitness, health, and more. " haha, what
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20:52:48 <Sgeo_> As long as they don't start applying 'evolutionary principles' to morality... oh wait
20:52:58 <pikhq_> Sigh, I *still* haven't found a good RSS reader.
20:53:40 <Sgeo_> I'm going to keep using Google Reader until the day it closes.
20:57:30 * itsy is still using Google Reader
20:57:38 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
20:57:42 <itsy> I wonder if there's a decent RSS reader for Android
20:58:24 * pikhq_ checks to see if Liferea stopped sucking.
20:58:30 <pikhq_> And yeah, I'm using Google Reader too.
20:59:58 <pikhq_> Oh sweet, Liferea stopped sucking.
21:00:04 <shachaf> pikhq_: My father switched from Google Reader to Feedly.
21:00:09 <shachaf> pikhq_: He says it's good.
21:06:41 -!- itsy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:08:47 <Taneb> If I ask for help learning Agda in #agda, will they be annoyed
21:08:57 <Sgeo_> I saw "Intel launches Haswell processors:"
21:09:02 <Sgeo_> And misread it as Haskell
21:09:06 <Taneb> Sgeo_, same, multiple times
21:09:36 <shachaf> Taneb: I imagine that you'll be much less annoying than some people who've asked for help before.
21:19:03 <oerjan> the haskell groundswell
21:20:13 <oerjan> Taneb already knows another language where you can be annoying in the type system
21:32:29 <shachaf> In Agda you can be annoying in the same way at every level.
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22:08:40 <itsy> Is there a better way to do this? var dt = new Date(); if (new Date(2013,5,3) <= dt && dt <= new Date(2013,5,6)) { ... stuff ... }
22:09:23 <oerjan> i smell an uninitialized date comparison hth
22:09:46 <Bike> i was guessing date without parameters gave you the present date
22:09:49 <itsy> Doesn't new Date() give today's date?
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22:11:46 <oerjan> although looking at the current date, i suspect if (false) would be an appropriate rephrasing hth >:)
22:13:00 <oerjan> (don't mind me, i don't know the language so i wouldn't know if it has a better idiom)
22:13:30 -!- carado has joined.
22:13:50 <oerjan> that is, i doubt there's a better way that works across all C-lookalikes.
22:13:51 <shachaf> oerjan: itsy is writing unit tests for his time machine hth
22:15:07 <itsy> At least Chrome no longer gets angry if I change the system date while it's open.
22:17:23 <itsy> This is better! var dt = new Date(); if (new Date(2013,5,3) < dt && dt < new Date(2013,5,7)) { ... stuff ... }
22:18:33 <itsy> (since the date object also stores the time)
22:19:01 <shachaf> Presumably those mean different things, in that case?
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22:19:52 <itsy> new Date(2013,5,6) sets the time to midnight in the new date object.
22:20:20 <itsy> new Date() get's today's date, including the time.
22:21:03 <shachaf> Right. Checking x <= 6 isn't the same as checking x < 7, when x can be 6.5.
22:21:04 <itsy> Comparing for equality also includes the time...
22:22:41 <itsy> I'm happy with it now :-) (Apart from Javascript's stupid 0 = January, 1 = February thing)
22:23:39 <Taneb> "But it was that same internet that directly led to his imprisonment a year ago next month." -- BBC News website
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22:31:40 <fizzie> 0-based month numbers have a long pedigree. (At least it doesn't do the 113 = year 2013 thing.)
22:34:49 -!- phamiltiz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:35:12 <zzo38> ifMUD does make 113 if you are at year 2013.
22:37:09 <fizzie> Things that get implemented as thin things over the C/POSIX "struct tm" sometimes do.
22:37:31 <zzo38> I think ifMUD is written in Perl, though.
22:41:00 <fizzie> Perl localtime/gmtime elements "come straight out of the C `struct tm'" (perldoc -f localtime), too.
22:57:36 <lambdabot> cmccann says: I still kind of expect that the next standard will be haskell2017 or something, and all it will do is a minor change to lexical syntax of comments that fixes nothing but nevertheless
22:57:57 <shachaf> @where+ quoerjan @quote oerjan
22:58:05 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
22:59:00 <oerjan> i think that's the only one
23:00:01 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
23:00:03 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
23:00:03 <lambdabot> oerjan says: so does this mean that a comonad is like a wildlife preserve on an island in a sea of nuclear waste?
23:00:06 <lambdabot> oerjan says: @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) "
23:00:13 <lambdabot> oerjan says: @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) "
23:00:25 <shachaf> @@ (@@ @where quoerjan) worries
23:00:36 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where quoerjan) worries
23:00:37 <lambdabot> oerjan says: 'N' :( 'o' :) " worries"
23:03:28 <Bike> http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/51a8edc369bedd1f5600000a-780-586/screen%20shot%202013-05-31%20at%202.36.05%20pm.png nasty
23:04:44 <lambdabot> monochrom says: no, you're thinking imperatively. when thinking functionally, you just worry one element, and let recursion worry the rest
23:04:45 <lambdabot> monochrom says: "mechanical layout" means the robot had to know this layout in order to mechanically enter stuff through the keyboard. "but why through the keyboard, why not through USB?" you ask.
23:04:45 <lambdabot> well, 20 years ago, there was no USB, and overall robot-to-computer interfaces were pretty crude, full of mechanical layouts"mechanical layout" means the robot had to know this layout in order to
23:04:45 <lambdabot> monochrom says: no, you're thinking imperatively. when thinking functionally, you just worry one element, and let recursion worry the rest
23:04:46 <lambdabot> monochrom says: the selfish program's motive is to fool the programmer
23:06:52 <kmc> well motorola finally invented the edible password: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/31/motorola_tattoo_pill_authentication/
23:08:08 <Bike> kmc: http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/51a8edc369bedd1f5600000a-780-586/screen%20shot%202013-05-31%20at%202.36.05%20pm.png cool industry huh
23:09:00 <shachaf> kmc: i realized today that the thing you would work on at mozilla is a web application
23:09:11 <kmc> shachaf: lol
23:09:28 <kmc> browsers are considered systems programming now, get w/ the times
23:09:38 <shachaf> the webbiest web application of all
23:10:09 <kmc> http://nationaldayofhacking.info/
23:11:00 <shachaf> http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=29818
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23:15:25 <kmc> shachaf: wow
23:15:39 <kmc> palo alt. toon line
23:16:00 <kmc> The city will also set up a "Tech Farmers Market," where instead of farm-to-table goods, there will be ideas-to-minds concepts.
23:17:34 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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23:22:48 -!- kmc has set topic: Ideas-to-minds concepts | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | There exist Turing machines that halt in some models of ZFC, but not others..
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23:38:27 <oerjan> i was wondering about what it was in http://stackoverflow.com/a/16552361
23:39:31 <oerjan> oh hm it's probably \((x,y),z) -> (x,(y,z))
23:39:56 <shachaf> I've seen that called that before.
23:40:28 <oerjan> zzo38: i think that way of formulating Reader and Writer (co)monads might interest you
23:40:40 <oerjan> maybe it works for more categories
23:41:56 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 Interesting formulation of Reader and Writer (co)monads in http://stackoverflow.com/a/16552361
23:43:16 <oerjan> zzo38: let's hope nobody else had sent you messages
23:44:48 <zzo38> I do know about that kind of reader/writer monads and the related comonads which use the other datatype, called env and trace.
23:45:14 <oerjan> zzo38: i was more pointing at the use of comonoid"
23:46:43 <nooodl_> "--that is because CCCs are boring!" what's a CCC
23:46:55 <oerjan> cartesian closed category, i think
23:47:15 <shachaf> either that or cocartesian coclosed cocategory....................
23:47:31 <Bike> is coclosedness openness
23:47:48 <shachaf> is coclopenness clopenness
23:47:55 <shachaf> also is that the most awkward word to spell of all words
23:48:04 <zzo38> Well, yes you get that "CoMonoid" automatically and that is one way to do it, although you don't need.
23:48:19 <nooodl_> is a cocartesian product a cartesian coproduct
23:48:29 <oerjan> basically a category where Hom(A,B) is also an object, and you can do function applicationy things
23:49:17 <oerjan> zzo38: i was thinking that maybe it meant you could define the (co)monads more generally than in a ccc if you had comonoids
23:49:39 <kmc> also can somebody explain the last part of the topic to me
23:50:26 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe; I don't know.
23:50:27 <oerjan> nooodl_: more or less. there might be something fishy about bottoms in there.
23:50:57 <Bike> I swear I read an explanation about models as pertains to computability theory once
23:51:03 <nooodl_> is () the terminal object in Hask
23:51:27 <Bike> it's actually (17,"Hello Wrold") but that's a common misconception
23:51:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> is coclopenness clopenness <-- imo yes
23:51:54 <nooodl_> Bike: that's not an object in Hask!!!
23:52:13 <Bike> your mom isn't an object in hask
23:52:42 <oerjan> i suppose lack of terminal objects is one thing that breaks ccc
23:52:47 <Bike> kmc: maybe you could have a model where the sum of all integers exist, and then have a turing machine that sums all integers. i dunno
23:52:53 <oerjan> i think it needs products too
23:53:26 <oerjan> Bike: it's more subtle than that
23:53:34 <nooodl_> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hask#Hask_is_not_Cartesian_closed ew
23:53:55 <Bike> oerjan: thinking is hard
23:54:01 <zzo38> (->) has 0 as an initial object and () as final object. Therefore you can make the corresponding comonad/monad too. You also have a tensor category because it is (***). Actual programs in Haskell aren't so ideal, due to various reasons.
23:55:51 <oerjan> kmc: the halting problem means there are TMs which zfc cannot prove whether they halt or not; by godel's completeness theorem there are ZFC models in which each are true statements.
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23:58:37 <oerjan> kmc: afaik that's both what i thought from before and what was recently discussed in the channel
23:59:23 <oerjan> although the channel discussions seemed to devolve into confusion about the meaning of truth and proof in this case
00:00:18 <oerjan> (i only logbrowsed them)
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00:25:13 <FreeFull> Bike: If you sum all integers, like with many sums, the result would depend on how you pair things up
00:25:23 <FreeFull> If you pair the negatives with the positives you'd just get 0
00:26:12 <kmc> oerjan: hm I think the first half of that is more due to incompleteness than due to halting theorem, though I guess they are pretty related
00:26:48 <kmc> like, the TM that comes to mind is one which searches for a proof or disproof of a statement which is true but not provable in zfc
00:26:53 <kmc> but maybe there are others
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00:27:58 <shachaf> find paradoxes in things that know how to talk about themselves with this one weird trick
00:30:37 <Bike> FreeFull: i meant naturals.
00:30:50 <Sgeo_> Should I watch Dollhouse?
00:31:09 <Bike> (shachaf, take note)
00:31:29 <shachaf> Maybe it's just me whose time you want to waste.
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00:32:29 <kmc> wasn't it shafchaf
00:32:38 -!- shachaff has changed nick to shafchaf.
00:32:56 -!- shafchaf has changed nick to shafkchaf.
00:34:03 <oerjan> kmc: you use the TM which searches for a proof or disproof of the statement that a given TM halts. then from that you construct a TM for which there is no such proof or disproof, thus incidentally proving a version of the incompleteness theorem from the halting theorem construction.
00:35:14 <oerjan> otherwise, the usual incompleteness theorem doesn't say that its undecidable statement has anything to do with TMs.
00:35:59 <kmc> interesting
00:36:25 <shachaf> note to self: do not ^A M in screen
00:47:23 <zzo38> Is there something wrong with this? http://sprunge.us/XOOT
00:49:10 <kmc> while(m<inst_sargs[2]) memory[inst_args[1]+m]=memory[inst_args[0]+m],m++;
00:49:14 <kmc> this line is extremely suspect
00:49:47 <mnoqy> i also like while(inst_args[2]) memory[inst_args[0]+--inst_args[2]]=0;
00:51:20 <zzo38> What is wrong with that one, please?
00:51:31 <mnoqy> it's not obviously right, so it's probably wrong
00:52:31 <zzo38> What makes it seems it's not obviously right?
00:52:46 <FreeFull> Bike: The sum of naturals isn't a natural
00:52:48 <kmc> that's not how it works
00:52:53 <zzo38> I happen to know that while(inst_args[2]) memory[inst_args[0]+--inst_args[2]]=0; isn't broken, however.
00:52:56 <FreeFull> I mean, the sum of all naturals
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00:54:21 <kmc> zzo38: why the comma operator there, instead of just two statements?
00:54:26 <Bike> FreeFull: i was talking about weird-ass models of zfc
00:55:09 <zzo38> kmc: I don't want to put everything in seperate lines instead. (Also, changing it doesn't help.)
00:55:18 <kmc> you can put multiple statements on the same line
00:55:28 <kmc> also changing it does help, it makes the code less weird-ass
00:55:36 <Bike> well, i guess tswett's mantra makes this a pointless line of thought re turing machines, anyway.
00:55:48 <kmc> Bike: what is your favorite weird-ass model of zfc
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00:56:10 <kmc> all i know really is that there's a countable model of zfc
00:56:30 <zzo38> kmc: I know I can put multiple statements on the same line but I don't want to.
00:56:51 <Bike> i'm not good with models :(
00:58:16 <oerjan> !c int a; a=3,&a; printf("hm");
00:58:39 <oerjan> !c int a; a=3,&a; printf("%d",a);
00:58:59 <shachaf> kmc: Then you'd need {}... Come on, you're being a bit ridiculous.
00:59:27 <tswett> So how many words of a given length does a given ambiguous context-free grammar have?
00:59:53 <tswett> So, you know how there exist Turing machines that halt in some models of ZFC, but not others?
00:59:59 <tswett> I wonder if there's a model of ZFC where all of them halt.
01:00:29 <tswett> That would be a pretty trippy model.
01:00:55 <Bike> a thing that the axioms describe
01:01:13 <kmc> well model theory is separate from axiomatic formal logic
01:01:38 <Bike> you still need laws of whatever kind doncha
01:01:55 <tswett> A model of ZFC is a set U along with a relation `in` on U such that for all elements x and y of U, if for all z in U, z `in` x if and only if z `in` y, then x = y, and ...
01:02:17 <tswett> A model of ZFC is a set U along with a relation `in`, such that U and `in` satisfy the axioms of ZFC.
01:02:57 <tswett> All right, ambiguous grammars.
01:03:07 <tswett> I'm trying to come up with ones that are complicated, but not too complicated.
01:03:08 <shachaf> kmc: is being hungover good
01:03:11 <Bike> so does anyone know what i should get in MIT's half off book sale
01:03:39 <kmc> shachaf: no hth
01:04:29 <tswett> Here's my favorite one so far: <start> ::= "a"* <mid> "b"*; <mid> ::= "a" <mid> "b" | epsilon
01:05:02 <tswett> Given a string of as and bs in that language, the number of parses of that string is the x^(number of as) y^(number of bs) coefficient of 1/(1 - xy)(1 - x)(1 - y).
01:05:04 <oerjan> tswett: you know it's undecidable whether a cf grammar is ambiguous or not, right?
01:05:17 <tswett> But I'm not surprised.
01:05:50 <oerjan> there's a simple reduction from the post correspondence problem
01:06:17 <kmc> i like that i went searching for the semantics of the comma operator and one of the first hits was "GCC Bug 6409 - C comma operator: wrong behavior"
01:07:04 <olsner> comma is a sequence point iirc, while assignment is not (iirc)
01:07:19 <kmc> yeah i think so too
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01:07:55 <olsner> looks like that could be done with memcpy/memmove instead
01:08:57 <shachaf> kmc: how much drugz have you taken since you got to ca
01:09:17 <tswett> So I guess the parses of this grammar are really pretty simple. I wonder what's a language that has more sophisticated parses...
01:09:24 <zzo38> In my program it is *supposed* to corrupt the table by copying it like that.
01:09:32 <kmc> shachaf: lots
01:09:37 <kmc> mostly booze
01:09:49 <tswett> Ooh, here's one: <start> ::= "a"**
01:09:51 <kmc> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11751 is kind of amusing as well
01:10:47 <tswett> Each string there has infinitely many parses. That won't do. How about this one: <start> ::= ("a"+)*
01:10:49 <shachaf> kmc: do they mark every undefined behavior bug as a duplicate of that one
01:11:33 <Bike> it just keeps going XD
01:11:34 <kmc> seems to be the trend
01:11:35 <tswett> If there are x as, then the number of parses is really just 2^(x-1). Unless there are no as.
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01:11:57 <Bike> «The code is undefined, which means we should be able to do system("rm -Rf /");, note we don't.» thanks, asshole
01:11:57 <kmc> maybe only ones related to multiple-assignment between sequence points
01:12:24 <kmc> heh that is what I would say
01:12:27 <kmc> maybe in somewhat more words
01:12:42 <shachaf> kmc: but would you use an uppercase r
01:12:44 <Bike> like fuck, they know perfectly well it's undefined, they're just asking for a bit vendor-definition
01:12:53 <Bike> you could at least tell them it's too much work or something
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01:13:25 <shachaf> "rm -rf /" is the one true rm command
01:13:51 <tswett> So how can (a++)+(a++)+(++a) there evaluate to 4?
01:14:02 <shachaf> Bike: "compiler-dependent" (i.e. implementation-defined) isn't the same as "undefined"
01:14:05 <kmc> Bike: no I don't think the original opener of the ticket knows that it's undefined
01:14:22 <kmc> tswett: it's undefined, it can do anything
01:14:34 <Bike> oh, i'm reading the thread
01:14:35 <Bike> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11751#c28
01:14:38 <tswett> All right. Does it evaluate to 4 in a sensible manner, and if so, what is that manner?
01:14:44 <Bike> shachaf: i know.
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01:15:18 <kmc> Bike: that's not the original ticket opener who the rm -Rf comment was directed towards
01:15:39 <kmc> UB is useful to the compiler because it enables optimizations
01:16:19 <Bike> yes, but you could explain that
01:16:20 <shachaf> So undefined behavior is there to extend the equivalence class between programs.
01:16:28 <pikhq_> As well as giving implementations some leeway...
01:16:35 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is why I wanted to add some strange operators.
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01:16:48 <kmc> zzo38: you had one that was "AND or ADD" right?
01:16:57 <kmc> er, "OR or ADD"?
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01:17:23 <pikhq_> Signed overflow being UB makes it 'sane' to use one's complement integers.
01:17:45 <pikhq_> Admittedly this particular case is probably dubious.
01:18:17 <tswett> Is there a way to compile a program so that all "undefined behaviors" produce an error message?
01:18:28 <Bike> I mean. There are a lot.
01:18:43 <kmc> detecting UB at compile time is ~impossible, but I think you can write runtime checks for most of them
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01:19:12 <tswett> The number of ways to produce undefined behavior should be O(n) in the length of the spec.
01:19:14 <kmc> yeah, also ASan is in GCC 4.8 now
01:19:29 <kmc> https://code.google.com/p/address-sanitizer/
01:20:12 <kmc> "It finds use-after-free and {heap,stack,global}-buffer overflow bugs", 2x slowdown I think
01:20:16 <pikhq_> tswett: Some instances of UB require a halting oracle to identify.
01:20:28 <kmc> (varies by application of course)
01:20:32 <tswett> pikhq_: I mean so that they produce an error message at runtime.
01:20:44 <tswett> Do you need a halting oracle to recognize UB at runtime?
01:20:47 <kmc> shachaf: someone at Mozilla mentioned that they knew someone who used xpdf in valgrind always
01:21:05 <pikhq_> I'd be unsurprised to find that really.
01:21:05 <kmc> i used valgrind for mosh to simulate laggy server process
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01:21:45 <kmc> because xpdf has more holes than a... some kind of object with lots of holes
01:22:11 <shachaf> I had not considered that use of valgrind.
01:22:24 <kmc> i love reading pdfs about vulnerabilities of pdf viewers
01:22:35 <shachaf> Is something like for(;;);free(x);free(x); undefined behavior?
01:23:13 <kmc> shachaf: maybe Mosh should detect GCC 4.9 and run some benchmarks of the slowdown on your machine and then build with ASan
01:23:21 <Bike> freeing the same pointer twice is undefined isn't it
01:23:34 <Bike> oh, durr, ignore me
01:23:49 <kmc> not actually a reasonable idea but I do think --enable-asan or something would be good
01:24:10 <pikhq_> shachaf: Double-free can never occur in the C abstract machine, and as it so happens, this never occurs.
01:24:26 <pikhq_> Likewise, goto foo;free(x);free(x);foo: is defined behavior.
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01:25:31 <kmc> what if i put a double free after a loop which searches for a nontrivial zero of the riemann zeta function which is not on the critical line
01:25:47 <zzo38> pikhq_: Would it be allowed to optimize the second free into unreachable?
01:26:13 <pikhq_> Anything that would be UB may be assumed to never occur.
01:26:30 <Bike> kmc: you know i've been thinking that an ideal compiler woul dhave to be a good mathematician
01:26:35 <zzo38> (In the case you gave, though, it could optimize out all of it, but after a loop like kmc described, it would have to do that.)
01:26:56 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I think an ideal *optimizer* would have to be
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01:28:02 <kmc> i wonder if anyone ever asked Gödel whether God could decide all statements in number theory
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01:28:41 <kmc> so if 'for(;;);free(x);free(x);' is not UB, then the C spec must define what kinds of infinite loops the compiler is required to detect
01:29:14 <kmc> it's defined only because the loop is infinite
01:29:25 <shachaf> Right. Why is the compiler ever required to detect it?
01:29:55 <shachaf> extern void f(); f(); free(x); free(x); is also defined if f never returns, presumably.
01:30:08 <kmc> ok, yes, you're right
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01:30:29 <kmc> it's only required if the compiler is going to 'look ahead' for UB code and remove stuff before it
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01:30:44 <kmc> which is an implementation decision that the compiler authors can restrict however they like in keeping with the spec
01:30:45 <shachaf> That's for optimizations etc., so not really specified by the spec.
01:31:30 <shachaf> I wonder whether there are compiler bugs like this.
01:33:21 <kmc> shachaf: Josh (who you met) works at Synaptics and found something like 40 bugs in their in-house C compiler using Csmith
01:34:17 <shachaf> They have an in-house C compiler?
01:37:32 <zzo38> I fixed my program.
01:45:34 <shachaf> kmc: did you know it's illegal for a minor to be in a public space in east palo alto between 23:00 and 6:00
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02:21:59 <Sgeo_> tswett, is Sine down?
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02:28:18 <kmc> shachaf: really? fascists
02:28:24 <kmc> zzo38: what did you fix
02:28:34 <shachaf> kmc: they recently even started enforcing it
02:28:58 <kmc> what do you do if you're a homeless kid?
02:29:02 <kmc> you just can't exist in epa?
02:30:41 <shachaf> http://library.municode.com/HTML/16328/level4/SUHITA_TIT9PUPEMOWE_CH9.20PRMI_ARTIINGE.html
02:33:22 <kmc> oh it's a port of GCC
02:33:22 <shachaf> Hmm, you count as "emancipated" in CA if you've gotten married.
02:33:52 <shachaf> is Josh (who i met) on irc
02:34:07 <kmc> shachaf: yeah, if you have rich parents you can get better financial aid if you marry someone poor
02:34:21 <kmc> but he is looking over my shoulder
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03:13:54 <kmc> someone should build pam_brethalyzer
03:14:32 <zzo38> Are the names of destroyer ships supposed to have "class" at the end?
03:15:38 <zzo38> In this game I am playing, they do, both for the United States and Japanese ships.
03:15:39 <kmc> a class of ships is named after one of the ships in the class (usually the first one?)
03:15:48 <kmc> so e.g. the USS Iowa was a Montana-class battleship
03:15:56 <kmc> this is what it does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BB61_USS_Iowa_BB61_broadside_USN.jpg
03:16:12 <zzo38> O, so that's how it works.
03:34:49 <kmc> https://github.com/search?p=3&q=extension%3Aphp+mysql_query+%24_GET&ref=searchresults&type=Code
03:36:19 <Sgeo_> Someone should write a script that does that kind of search and creates issues in the project
03:36:33 <Sgeo_> (Perhaps with human supervision to ensure no false positives)
03:37:13 <kmc> i'm sure that will go over well
03:37:30 <kmc> someone should write a script that submits a pull request for every PHP project which simply deletes the entire project
03:38:07 <Bike> does github have policies about bots like that?
03:38:43 <Sgeo_> I'm going to raise an issue with the 4 day old one
03:39:09 <Sgeo_> Someone already did
03:39:31 <Sgeo_> https://github.com/gregmolnar/infokos/commit/5eba4f5d7840d0f97135094214dad343a9c30e41
03:39:57 <Sgeo_> Not really the sort of fix I would personally recommend
03:40:02 <Bike> will that actually work
03:40:02 <shachaf> Google says it'll be 37° in Palo Alto next week.
03:40:27 <kmc> that is a very PHP way to fix that problem
03:41:28 <kmc> in PHP i wouldn't be so sure that (int)x can never be "'; DROP DATABASE; --"
03:41:48 <Bike> i'm probably naive here but: is constructing a query string really the best way to do that anyway? that seems about as good as constructing code to eval because that's what it is, which seems like not good.
03:42:05 <shachaf> kmc: In PHP mysql_query can't do multiple semicolon-separated queries!
03:42:10 <Sgeo_> Hey, at least two languages I like are centered around constructing code to eval!
03:42:31 <Sgeo_> I don't think they do.
03:42:41 <Bike> Be honest, sgeo.
03:42:41 <shachaf> Bike: No, constructing a query string is not the best way to do that. hth
03:42:48 <Bike> So what's the good way.
03:43:13 <shachaf> Parameterized queries are the obvious improvement to make that safe.
03:43:15 <kmc> most languages / DB APIs have something like query("SELECT foo FROM bar WHERE x = ?", x)
03:43:18 <Sgeo_> Bike, Tcl and Rebol are both fantastic languages! Just ask pikhq_ about Tcl.
03:43:21 <kmc> yeah parametrized queries
03:43:30 <Bike> yeah that makes more sense.
03:43:30 <shachaf> Also using a higher-level thing like an ORM.
03:43:32 <Bike> does php have that?
03:43:35 <kmc> safer, easier to write, and you can also save and compile them ahead of time
03:43:46 <shachaf> (Not necessarily an ORM. Just something high-level.)
03:43:50 <Bike> Yeah I was wondering about the compiling too.
03:43:54 <kmc> yeah, an ORM, or just a DSL for building SQL
03:43:58 <kmc> i think sqlalchemy is both
03:44:05 <lambdabot> uninverted says: Moving from lisp to haskell with respect to functions is like moving from c to perl with respect to strings.
03:44:10 <kmc> @quote stark
03:44:11 <lambdabot> AlanPerlis says: The string is a stark data structure and everywhere it is passed there is much duplication of process. It is a perfect vehicle for hiding information.
03:44:19 <lambdabot> AlanPerlis says: The string is a stark data structure and everywhere it is passed there is much duplication of process. It is a perfect vehicle for hiding information.
03:45:06 <kmc> web development involves a ton of metaprogramming, much of it at string level :/
03:45:40 <shachaf> Similarly you should use a templating system or something high-level to generate HTML!
03:46:25 <kmc> i would call most templating systems "string level"
03:47:09 <Bike> what should we use to generate templating systems
03:47:25 <kmc> it turns out that metaprogramming and functional programming are really useful, if you don't tell people that they are fancy math things
03:47:30 <shachaf> kmc: Similarly to the SQL thing, I mean.
03:47:40 <shachaf> Templating systems corresponding to the x = ? case.
03:48:01 <zzo38> Even in C you can have SQL with ?1 and so on if you use SQLite, or probably other database engines too.
03:48:31 <shachaf> Alternatively you change the name of all your string variables to usBlah and then rely on humans to make sure all the names match up.
03:49:15 <shachaf> I heard that's the proper way to do it.
03:49:41 <kmc> http://linux.die.net/man/1/ecpg "ecpg is the embedded SQL preprocessor for C programs. It converts C programs with embedded SQL statements to normal C code by replacing the SQL invocations with special function calls."
03:49:45 <Sgeo_> What's always "fun" is mixing front-end templating with back-end templating that is unaware of the front-end templating
03:50:04 <Bike> metatemplatery
03:50:23 <Bike> maybe i should just go to your house and talk, rather than html
03:52:22 <kmc> shachaf did that
03:53:12 <Sgeo_> You all live near each other?
03:53:25 <Bike> They live in the elusive land of "some urban area in california"
03:53:34 <kmc> I am in SF for the weekend but I don't live there yet
03:53:50 <Bike> eh, basically the same
03:54:03 <shachaf> We've answered the questions of which of me and kmc is the one who doesn't say anything.
03:54:11 <kmc> why would there be one
03:54:23 <shachaf> I didn't say it was a good question.
03:54:25 <Bike> Because you're both weird internet creeps
03:54:52 <kmc> im not weird :'(
03:55:01 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-12-03.txt:21:22:46: <kmc> yes shachaf and i have met irl
03:55:01 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-12-03.txt:21:22:56: <kmc> once at boston python and once at the stripe ctf meetup in sf
03:55:04 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-12-03.txt:21:22:59: <kmc> and maybe another time
03:55:07 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-12-03.txt:21:23:07: <kmc> we are more awkward in person
03:55:32 <Bike> weird internet creeps
03:55:38 <shachaf> (Well, at least when we're around a bunch of people that kmc knows and I don't.)
03:55:59 <kmc> i hope they provided some amt. of entertainment
03:57:05 <shachaf> Maybe this weekend I can focus all my not-talking at you!
03:57:34 <shachaf> (By "weekend" I mean Sun-Tue.)
03:57:56 <shachaf> 17:53 <shachaf> Bicycle haters unike!
03:58:21 <Bike> 17:53 was such a bad minute
03:59:03 <shachaf> Bike: imo you should come to sf and have burritos/ramen/sushi/pizza/other kmc food
03:59:14 <Bike> ugh that sounds good
03:59:27 <Bike> but i can't even afford a stupid book, let alone kmcfood
03:59:32 <kmc> i had a salty ginger ice cream sundae from bi-rite
03:59:33 <shachaf> (this is all one meal btw. just a day in the life of kmc)
04:00:00 <kmc> well there is http://www.sushirrito.com/
04:00:09 <shachaf> kmc: The person I went to meet and I had "strawberry white balsamic" ice cream prepared with liquid nitrogen!
04:02:13 <shachaf> Bike: stupid books make you stupid anyway
04:02:18 <kmc> "I am issuing a fatwa: all real programmers must Rasmus Lerdorf in the balls on sight"
04:02:47 <Bike> better without the verb
04:03:01 <kmc> Rasmus Lerdorf is a verb and all we know is that it can be done to balls
04:03:16 <Bike> is f(x) = 2x a diffeomorphism
04:03:22 <Bike> i think yes but i need external confirmation.
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04:04:37 <shachaf> A diffeomorphism is a bijection such that both it and its inverse are infinitely differentiable?
04:06:27 <Bike> does it need to be infinitely so?
04:06:48 <shachaf> "It is an invertible function that maps one differentiable manifold to another, such that both the function and its inverse are smooth."
04:06:49 <Bike> wikipedia says so but not my book
04:06:51 <shachaf> "In mathematical analysis, a function that has derivatives of all orders is called smooth."
04:07:09 <shachaf> http://www.math.toronto.edu/mat1300/smooth.2.pdf says so too.
04:07:22 <Bike> Just that it and the inverse are differentiable.
04:07:36 <shachaf> Well, either way the answer seems to be yes.
04:07:57 <shachaf> But you should probably work out the definitions.
04:08:58 <shachaf> Ooh, http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Diffeomorphism.html says "differentiable"
04:10:08 <shachaf> kmc: I like how 8/10 of the first page is the same person.
04:12:13 <kmc> which page
04:14:05 <Bike> shachaf: Ordinary Differential Equations by vi arnold
04:15:17 <Bike> [Amazingly, there exist continuous functions which are nowhere differentiable. Two examples are the Blancmange function and Weierstrass function. Hermite (1893) is said to have opined, "I turn away with fright and horror from this lamentable evil of functions which do not have derivatives"» mathematicians are the best.
04:18:15 <Bike> ADieu Is Usually A Farewell
04:18:42 <shachaf> Bike: are differential equations good
04:18:55 <shachaf> should i "learn things about them"
04:19:00 <Bike> They're like Turing machines for people who aren't HUGE NERDS like yourself
04:19:34 <Bike> But yeah, they're cool
04:19:45 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4667 ~
04:21:03 <Bike> "Differential Equations" is the worst college class, though.
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04:39:47 <mnoqy> why would anyone take a class called "differential equations"
04:40:02 <mnoqy> probably itd just be all about finding solutions
04:40:05 <mnoqy> which is 100% lame
04:40:54 <shachaf> mnoqy: are differential equations good tho.......
04:41:39 <SingingBoyo> shachaf: differential eqns are a pain. Of course I did just take a class that involved them so I might be biased...
04:42:03 <mnoqy> the theory's probably not bad, but calculus is one of those things that's so dang applicable that everyone only ever talks about how to apply it and compute with it and uuuuurgh(barf)
04:42:08 <mnoqy> so i stay away from it
04:42:10 <HackEgo> SingingBoyo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:42:20 <mnoqy> if u want "calculus but good" try "analysis"
04:42:43 <shachaf> `addquote <mnoqy> the theory's probably not bad, but calculus is one of those things that's so dang applicable that everyone only ever talks about how to apply it and compute with it and uuuuurgh(barf) <mnoqy> so i stay away from it
04:42:47 <HackEgo> 1044) <mnoqy> the theory's probably not bad, but calculus is one of those things that's so dang applicable that everyone only ever talks about how to apply it and compute with it and uuuuurgh(barf) <mnoqy> so i stay away from it
04:43:31 <shachaf> `addquote <mnoqy> the theory's probably not bad, but calculus is one of those things that's so dang applicable that everyone only ever talks about how to apply it and compute with it and uuuuurgh(barf) <mnoqy> so i stay away from it
04:43:35 <HackEgo> 1044) <mnoqy> the theory's probably not bad, but calculus is one of those things that's so dang applicable that everyone only ever talks about how to apply it and compute with it and uuuuurgh(barf) <mnoqy> so i stay away from it
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05:07:31 <Bike> mnoqy is quite correct, both about "Differential Equations" and about calculus.
05:17:21 <HackEgo> 344) [on spiking] <CakeProphet> drugs are expensive. It would be a waste to use them on a random stranger.
05:17:53 <myndzi> \o/ i bothered to track and fix a bug
05:18:05 <myndzi> you guys seemed to enjoy it anyway
05:18:38 <Bike> the \o\ thing? \o/ I mean. \ o /, \ o /, \o/
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05:59:38 <zzo38> Can a small TOGA computer be made using only two 74xx series ICs?
05:59:55 <Bike> is that like a toga party?
06:00:29 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOGA_computer
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06:23:09 <mamiphin> echo input.txt | ruby golfscript.rb tests.gs
06:23:55 <mamiphin> http://pastie.org/private/loknpbjskcyov0btjzqva
06:24:28 <mnoqy> do you want cat instead of echo
06:25:10 <mnoqy> yeah idk enough about your thing to guess anything else
06:25:45 <mnoqy> maybe the golfscript interp is broken...maybe the ruby interp is broken! it could happen
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06:47:03 <fizzie> Maybe the "|" is broken!
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12:22:38 <elliott> 05:15:17 <Bike> [Amazingly, there exist continuous functions which are nowhere differentiable. Two examples are the Blancmange function and Weierstrass function. Hermite (1893) is said to have opined, "I turn away with fright and horror from this lamentable evil of functions which do not have derivatives"» mathematicians are the best.
12:22:43 <elliott> you totally fucked up this quote
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12:31:23 <mnoqy> wow how did that happen
12:38:54 <mnoqy> how are they not easy? they look rather mindless
12:49:58 -!- gasoline has joined.
12:52:34 <HackEgo> gasoline: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:52:41 <gasoline> we will see about that elliott
12:54:12 <gasoline> i dont exclude that possibility you know
12:54:27 <elliott> have you noticed you're not making much sense
12:55:40 <gasoline> doesnt mean you also said something usefull ofcourse
12:56:36 <gasoline> whats up with undernet by the way
12:56:53 <gasoline> it seems they lost their server
12:57:12 <elliott> mnoqy: remember that guy who came in and quit because of the dalnet in the welcome
12:57:29 <mnoqy> you mean the guy who was really upset about mentioning dal?
12:57:32 <mnoqy> i remember that guy
12:57:40 <mnoqy> what was up with that guy anyway
12:58:23 -!- gasoline has changed nick to newstalker.
12:59:24 <elliott> we know all about the drugz here
12:59:24 <mnoqy> good question elliott
13:00:00 <newstalker> what is there that makes you think that I am a topic
13:00:58 <fungot> elliott: i've been hacking on a business model yet. but you can't
13:01:21 <mnoqy> elliott don't you remember the last time gasoline was here
13:01:52 <elliott> why would i remember such a loser 8)
13:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <mnoqy> you mean the guy who was really upset about mentioning dal?
13:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> newstalker, so are you locked in the matrix of solidity
13:04:04 <mnoqy> Phantom_Hoover: Broly
13:06:26 <elliott> newstalker: but aren't we all one
13:06:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29509
13:09:51 <mnoqy> what's that and what's this
13:10:04 <mnoqy> what makes a sound Nazi
13:10:31 <newstalker> Positive News ! Force Feeding does work ! So called Hunger Strikers at Guantanamo Bay Have Actually “Put On Weight” - Rep. Mike Pompeo (R-KS)
13:11:18 <newstalker> More Positive News ! The President is gonna Close Guantanamo Bay Again !
13:11:34 <newstalker> As soon as he returns from vacation ...
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13:20:02 <newstalker> im reading about a Pill that also cures racism
13:20:40 <newstalker> ha ha theyre saying that it will no doubt fire up the imagination of egalitarians everyfwhere
13:21:23 <Taneb> That seems very Clockwork Orange
13:22:17 <newstalker> A Clockwork Orange is a dystopian novella written by Anthony Burgess and published in 1962.
13:22:58 <Taneb> It's about (or contains, I'm not sure) a doctor trying to medically cleanse evil from someone
13:23:19 <newstalker> dystopian seems the right way to denominate it versus utopian
13:26:00 <newstalker> -!- newstalker changed the topic of #racism to: welcome ! and ... racists only !
13:31:05 <elliott> btw you're kind of annoying can you go away
13:31:19 <newstalker> i suppose by saying racist you mean racist discrimination too
13:31:55 <mnoqy> ssh elliott that's rude
13:32:59 <Deewiant> ssh: Could not resolve hostname elliott: Name or service not known
13:40:26 <Vorpal> About $764 or about $317 for a new monitor... Hm. The more expensive one is significantly nicer though...
13:50:29 <Vorpal> newstalker, Wouldn't a racist be someone like Michael Schumacher? ;)
13:52:50 <Vorpal> mnoqy, wasn't the ";)" obvious enough?
13:52:50 <Phantom_Hoover> anthropologists conclude that it can only have come from a being with a radically less-developed sense of humour than modern humans
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13:55:55 <newstalker> mnoqy: did that answer your question ?
13:56:23 <mnoqy> i still don't understand it, but at least he tried
13:56:45 <mnoqy> vorpal tried to make a joke
13:57:03 <nooodl> are you a news talker or a new stalker
13:57:10 <elliott> we already did that one nooodl
13:57:20 <mnoqy> remember news-ham? those were the days
13:57:36 <mnoqy> the days where we had news
13:58:06 <elliott> too bad i need a new silly language to be enamoured with to write any silly bots
13:58:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i lost the code
13:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, you're young and impressionable WRITE A NEW NEWS-HAM
13:58:39 <elliott> i bet the next one will be in a concatenative language
13:58:48 <elliott> to be enamoured with a silly concatenative language
13:59:03 <elliott> sorry nobody understands news-ham but me
13:59:03 <mnoqy> are there any silly concatenative languages worth being enamoured over
13:59:21 <Phantom_Hoover> it gives you random headlines when you say 'news-ham' or 'what are the haps my friends'
13:59:24 <elliott> mnoqy: well factor is pretty cute but probably it's too "#esoteric mainstream" to be enamoured with
13:59:31 <elliott> i think cat is cute? "iirc"
13:59:40 <mnoqy> elliott: there's also the thing where sgeo went on a factor trip
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13:59:46 <mnoqy> elliott: and evincar went on a concatenative trip
13:59:52 <mnoqy> and wrote a concatenative blog post
13:59:53 <elliott> mnoqy: well, he went on a PicoLisp trip too
13:59:58 <elliott> and news-ham was written in PicoLisp
14:00:15 <mnoqy> you did that while sgeo was on his picolisp trip right
14:00:26 <mnoqy> you should write new-s-ham in rebol
14:00:28 <elliott> so i guess the next one has to be rebol
14:00:36 <elliott> it wouldnt be a retread though
14:01:26 <Sgeo_> ...o.O have I actually been causing people to try out the category of languages of whatever language I'm tripping on?
14:04:30 <newstalker> dinosaur bones that are carbon dated in general will come out only a couple of thousand years old
14:04:47 <newstalker> therefor the results of dinosaur bones that are carbon dated are dismissed
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14:05:56 <newstalker> the earth also got a 100 million years older this year
14:06:05 <nooodl> `fetch http://api.bbcnews.appengine.co.uk/stories/uk
14:06:07 <HackEgo> 2013-06-02 14:06:05 URL:http://api.bbcnews.appengine.co.uk/stories/uk [19808] -> "uk.1" [1]
14:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> carbon dating... doesn't work for more than a few thousand years but why am i saying this
14:06:12 <nooodl> `run python -c "import random, json; print random.choice(json.loads(open('uk').read())['stories'])['description']"
14:06:14 <HackEgo> Lady Anne Glenconner, one of the Queen's six maids of honour at the Coronation in 1953, talks about her memories of the day.
14:06:19 <nooodl> `run python -c "import random, json; print random.choice(json.loads(open('uk').read())['stories'])['description']"
14:06:21 <HackEgo> A feature on American jargon in "soccer" generated a huge response. Here, readers share their favourite - and least favourite - descriptions of their favourite sport by overseas announcers.
14:06:54 <nooodl> man i probably want title instead for more headlineyness
14:06:59 <nooodl> `run python -c "import random, json; print random.choice(json.loads(open('uk').read())['stories'])['title']"
14:07:00 <HackEgo> Sporting terms that divide the English-speaking world
14:07:08 <fizzie> Is that like (the beginnings of) an automated "what's up?"-answerer?
14:07:45 <nooodl> too bad HackEgo can't fetch files from within python
14:07:49 <mnoqy> don't you remember news-ham, fizzie
14:08:17 <newstalker> <@BBC> Title: Cheerios Forced to Shut Down Comments on New Ad Featuring Interracial Family | TheBlaze.com
14:08:21 <fizzie> nooodl: It can fetch files from whitelisted domains.
14:08:48 <fizzie> (Or at least `run wget can, so presumably `run python can as well.)
14:09:07 <fizzie> (google.com is the only whitelisted domain I know of, though.)
14:09:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no it was more
14:09:31 <elliott> it had topics and multiple sources and everything
14:09:36 <elliott> fizzie: btw can you get rid of newstalker
14:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i was about to say, does this meet our ops' ridiculously high standard for banning
14:10:04 <elliott> nooodl: also it's not a proper news-ham if you have to use "symbols" and stuff to invoke it
14:10:09 <elliott> nooodl: it needs to be natural
14:11:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Not all of them are as bad as I when it comes to that, really.
14:12:12 <elliott> have you looked at /lastlog newstalker
14:12:31 <mnoqy> lastlog gasoline is nice too
14:12:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan is eager to ban channel regulars who undermine his authority but not actual disruptive idiots
14:12:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, shut up
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14:18:27 <newstalker> . Turkeys capital calm after night of clashes <--- duh rioters gotta sleep too
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14:19:48 <newstalker> theyve been out all night rioting in the streets theyre tired
14:20:08 <elliott> fizzie: what do we have to get them to do to qualify
14:21:45 <mnoqy> take a chill pill and peace out
14:22:09 <mnoqy> ask kmc for details[drug joke]
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14:25:31 <newstalker> they got a new secret surveillance program in the UK called "elliott"
14:27:05 <elliott> fizzie: how about i ping you every time newstalker says something
14:27:10 <elliott> fizzie: so it annoys you personally
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14:27:37 <mnoqy> maybe if you hadnt been such a jerk he woudlnt be bothering you
14:28:43 <elliott> newstalker: what's it like in leiden
14:28:49 <elliott> -yrs, the elliott surveillance program
14:28:54 <newstalker> and yes ... a ban would surely give you some time to repent
14:30:33 <mnoqy> a while ago i got reminded of that one other guy who came in and got in a spat with elliott after talking about aliens and pyramids and stuff and it got out of control
14:30:39 <mnoqy> and now its reminding me of that again
14:30:44 <mnoqy> you dont want that to happen again do you
14:31:30 <elliott> didnt they get banned eventually though
14:31:34 <elliott> so its clearly a winning formula
14:32:13 <newstalker> you should get a kick for interfering with ops tho
14:32:25 <mnoqy> (looking like a dork when you type !s is the divine punishment for being a jerk)
14:32:26 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v newstalker.
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14:32:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v newstalker.
14:32:38 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v newstalker.
14:32:47 <mnoqy> elliott are you trying to get your +v privileges revoked!!!!
14:32:58 <elliott> i think you'll find my +v privileges are divine
14:33:08 <elliott> more like a +v right, really
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14:33:58 <elliott> fizzie: does that count as blatant enough or do we have to push it a bit more
14:33:59 <mnoqy> no i think only you call them that
14:37:10 <newstalker> Penguins are sea - birds. They form the family Spheniscidae, the only family of the order Sphenisciformes. Penguins live on the southern half of the world
14:37:35 <newstalker> URL: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin
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14:38:43 <masliksis> I'm working with a C++ based language so not everything will be the same as C++, eg.. "Int_t" is this program's equivalent of "Int" for C++. But i was curious about one of the syntax here. after finishing a struct, i thought you were supposed to do an int main. What would the "staff_t staff;" line do? http://pastebin.ca/2387639
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14:41:35 <masliksis> newstalker: so it it declares a variables of type staff_t?
14:41:49 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
14:42:20 <newstalker> and in c++ it calls the staff_t constructor
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14:54:18 <elliott> masliksis: you just joined so you may not be aware that newstalker is a troll
14:57:01 <ion> elliott: I think he was hitting on you.
14:58:59 <nooodl> why isnt newstalker banned
14:59:08 <fizzie> newstalker: I think you could stop with the insults and the trolly-preachy stuff.
14:59:11 <elliott> we dont ban people here in #esoteric
14:59:18 <fizzie> nooodl: Because of the aforementioned high standards for banning, I suppose.
14:59:34 <masliksis> fizzie: Could you help me please? :)
14:59:39 <fizzie> It's kind of like it's a great honor to be banned from #esoteric, and diluting it would be silly.
14:59:41 <elliott> i don't really think they're high so much as nonexistent
15:00:10 <elliott> like i actually can't remember a single person who has been banned long-term before their not being banned becomes some kind of running joke
15:00:20 <fizzie> masliksis: I don't know what sort of help you need. Re "no main", if it's the ROOT C++ interpreter thing, I don't think it requires a main function, you can just write a "script". You already got an explanation for the line; it's declaring a variable.
15:00:30 <elliott> fizzie: i think i might have actually been set +b more than anyone else
15:00:32 <elliott> maybe PH has overtaken me though
15:01:12 <elliott> masliksis: btw have you been welcomed yet
15:01:17 <HackEgo> newstalker: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:01:38 <elliott> pretend that said you instead
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15:02:03 <HackEgo> masliksis: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:03:13 <fizzie> This channel: mostly about silly welcomes.
15:03:22 -!- wood has joined.
15:03:57 <elliott> cute getting it bolded like that
15:04:21 <fizzie> `run WeLcOmE fizzie | rainwords | h # nobody ever welcomes me :(
15:04:24 <HackEgo> FihZzIe: WehLcOhmE To tHe ihNtEhrNahTiOhnAhl hUhb fOhr ehSohTehRihC PrOhgRahMmIhnG LahNgUahGe dEhsIhgN AhnD DehPlOyhMehNt! FohR MohRe ihNfOhrMahTiOhn, ChEhcK OuhT OuhR WihKi: HtTp://ehSohLahNgS.OhrG/WihKi/mAihN_PahGe. (fOhr tHe ohThEhr kIhnD Ohf ehSohTehRihCa, TrY #ehSohTehRihC Ohn
15:04:37 <elliott> `run relcome nooodl | rnooodl
15:04:40 <HackEgo> nooooooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:05:01 <fizzie> This window looks like a unicorn threw up in it.
15:05:11 <ion> `run WeLcOmE fizzie | h | hyphenate.fi | rainwords
15:05:16 <HackEgo> FihZ-zIe: WehL-cOh-mE To tHe ihN-tEhr-Nah-Ti-Oh-nAhl hUhb fOhr eh-Soh-Teh-RihC PrOhg-RahM-mIhnG LahN-gU-ah-Ge dEh-sIhgN AhnD DehP-lO-yh-MehNt! FohR Moh-Re ihN-fOhr-Mah-Ti-Ohn, ChEhcK OuhT OuhR Wih-Ki: HtTp://eh-Soh-LahNgS.OhrG/Wih-Ki/mAihN_Pah-Ge. (fOhr tHe ohT-hEhr kIhnD Ohf eh-Soh-Teh-R
15:05:35 <fizzie> ion: I'm all about the PrOhg-RahM-mIhnG.
15:06:02 <olsner> my eyes are all kinds of hurt now
15:06:20 <fizzie> olsner: ITYM all "kIhnDs".
15:06:38 -!- wood has changed nick to function.
15:06:39 <olsner> yes, in bold and bright colors
15:06:44 -!- function has quit (Changing host).
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15:06:53 <olsner> luckily, I don't know how to do that
15:09:59 <ion> Insert a space in the beginning?
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15:55:49 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:57:03 <elliott> wait why does that work/do what it does
15:57:28 <nooodl> it's just a program called \x03welcome i guess
15:58:19 <HackEgo> hexdump: invalid option -- ' ' \ usage: hexdump [-bcCdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...] \ hd [-bcdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...]
15:58:28 <FireFly> `run hexdump -C bin/welcome
15:58:29 <HackEgo> 00000000 23 21 2f 62 69 6e 2f 73 68 0a 77 65 6c 63 6f 6d |#!/bin/sh.welcom| \ 00000010 65 20 7c 20 73 65 64 20 22 73 2f 5e 2f 02 2f 22 |e | sed "s/^/./"| \ 00000020 0a |.| \ 00000021
15:58:30 <phaztrict> Input (file to open) http://pastebin.ca/2387667
15:58:59 <FireFly> um maybe I should've `cat'd it
16:06:03 <nooodl> phaztrict: that problem sounds ridiculously googlable.
16:07:05 <elliott> i'm a little confused about the joining #esoteric to ask an f# question part
16:07:10 <elliott> surely there is an #fsharp or something
16:07:36 <nooodl> surely there is stackoverflow
16:09:18 <elliott> lambdabot is in lots of channels
16:09:42 <lambdabot> ##crypto ##freebsd ##logic ##proggit ##unavailable ##villagegreen #agda #codez #darcs #diagrams #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #happs #
16:09:42 <lambdabot> haskell #haskell-blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game #haskell-gsoc #haskell-in-depth #haskell-lens #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell.au #haskell.cz #
16:09:42 <lambdabot> haskell.de #haskell.es #haskell.se #haskell.tw #learnanycomputerlanguage #ledger #macosx #macosxdev #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #snapframework #tanuki #teamunix #unicycling #xmonad #
16:11:19 <elliott> btw "open a file f#" does get me useful-looking results on google FWIW
16:14:38 <elliott> well, we may have differing notions of useful :)
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16:20:43 <Taneb> elliott, should I do the thing
16:24:53 <Taneb> Help I'm doing the thing
16:25:15 <Taneb> It is out of my hands now
16:26:13 <oklopol> Taneb: masturbation is normal
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16:26:40 <Taneb> oklopol, not that thing
16:27:43 <oklopol> well having sex with a couch is normal too
16:28:27 <Taneb> No, not that thing either
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16:33:03 <Taneb> Now I don't need to work out how to get to Gateshead Library
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17:48:53 <ion> Being a total emacs newbie, i was trying org-mode and a tutorial told me to add some lines to ~/.emacs. Only after adding them using the method of editing text ingrained to my spinal nerves i realized there was something funny about the command i had used, “vim .emacs”.
17:49:44 <shachaf> Nothing wrong with vim .emacs
17:50:45 <shachaf> oh boy i just used the best word
17:51:49 <ion> diarrhœisise
17:52:25 <zzo38> Aircraft carries are too powerful in this "Task Force Broadside" game. You cannot attack them with broadside cards while other ships are in play, and you can attack with them without having a "aircraft carrier broadside" card, and when they do attack, they have a 50% chance to sink the ship they attack.
17:58:43 <Bike> sounds about right.
17:58:57 <kmc> aircraft carriers are p. useful
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18:26:31 <kmc> http://j00ru.vexillium.org/?p=1870 some cool stuff here
18:34:00 <kmc> if you ever wondered what happens when a REP STOSB overwrites the instruction being repeated
18:34:07 <kmc> then now you can find out
18:35:34 <fizzie> I *have* wondered about kX overwriting the X in Funge-98; is that covered in the slides too?
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18:38:40 <kmc> http://lifehacker.com/5974087/i-raised-my-kids-on-the-command-lineand-they-love-it how to teach your kids xmonad
18:48:38 <zzo38> Why did they omit - in "lineand" isn't it supposed to be "line-and"?
18:51:18 <AnotherTest> I wish my parents told me how to use xmonad
18:53:17 <kmc> elliott: yep
18:54:06 <olsner> I wonder if that's the first useful use of rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep rep movsb
18:54:42 <olsner> ... and then the slide after that
18:54:47 <kmc> i am not john goerzen
18:55:13 <AnotherTest> so who's "that guy" elliott was referring too
18:55:38 <kmc> it's all very simple really
18:58:12 <kmc> no two people are not john goerzen
18:58:48 <kmc> no, john goerzen is two people
18:58:52 <kmc> didn't you learn about contrapositives
19:00:57 <elliott> my kids will be raised on @
19:01:45 <elliott> kmc: also weird, that article is from 2012
19:02:55 <elliott> well i mean it is from 2012 and then posted on lifehacker a year later
19:02:59 <AnotherTest> kmc: Actually, that's not at all the law of contraposition
19:03:08 <elliott> imo that's weird. in my day you wrote something down once and then if you wrote it down again you would be hanged
19:03:19 <AnotherTest> that is, john goerzen does not follow from two people
19:03:30 <AnotherTest> there was cleary equality in that situation
19:03:47 <AnotherTest> not (two people != john goerzen) <=> two people == john goerzen
19:04:30 <kmc> first comments "My kids just use Windows 7 like normal people." "No offence, but they’ll be normal and not extraordinary.."
19:04:41 <AnotherTest> Well, maybe you could say (john goerzen <=> two people) <=> john goerzen xor two people
19:05:06 <AnotherTest> which is, as you can see, not the same as equality
19:05:21 <kmc> john goerzen >>= two people
19:05:35 <elliott> i do think it's kinda weird to pretend computers don't do graphics for five years or whatvver
19:05:49 <elliott> and the "command line" is a bit fetishised
19:06:10 <kmc> yeah, but he says the kid had exposure to other devices to
19:06:10 <elliott> like even if you want a language-y type interface with composability and stuff, terminals in xmonad seem clearly superior to the console
19:06:34 <kmc> language for input, graphics for output
19:06:39 <kmc> is basically the way things should work
19:06:57 <kmc> yet still fairly rare
19:07:21 <kmc> i'm thinking stuff like mathematica, ipython notebook, graphical emacs in its fancier uses
19:07:51 <elliott> no kid should have to use mathematica
19:08:06 <kmc> but look what it can do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://intothecontinuum.tumblr.com/
19:08:29 <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners
19:08:29 <Bike> teach kids perl. it'll work
19:09:12 <kmc> i did a lot of my early programming in perl
19:09:49 <kmc> the summer after freshman year of college i had a comp bio research project thing and I handed them like 2000 lines of bioinformatics code in perl
19:10:02 <kmc> a year later was much the same except it was 2000 lines of haskell
19:10:18 <myname> i always wanted to learn perl for just one silly reason, but i can't find anything (except small irssi scripts) which cannot be done with other languages in a way i like more
19:10:51 <elliott> kmc: um you mean 200 lines of haskell "thats how it works ☺"
19:11:07 <Bike> combining face shoved in toilet above, elliott
19:11:17 <kmc> it's still a great tool for oneliners thanks to perl -e -n -p -l -a -F -O etc
19:11:34 <Bike> perl --bioinformat
19:11:46 <elliott> is bioinformatting what bioinformatters do
19:12:56 <Bike> The Bioinforma
19:13:48 <elliott> is that, like, a dude who raps about bioinformatics
19:13:59 <kmc> bioperforma
19:14:25 <Bike> my name is dj acid and i'm here to tell you about efficient description of frameshift mutations
19:14:39 <elliott> dj acid should rap about database consistency
19:15:22 <kmc> http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/reference.png
19:15:33 <elliott> test so named because the dude looks like he's on acid
19:15:54 <kmc> not just acid though, acid 2.0
19:15:59 <kmc> disrupting the acid industry
19:16:33 <shachaf> kmc: i got a card with 4 stamps for that sushi place
19:16:41 <shachaf> because none of the rest of you did
19:16:57 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: time to die
19:17:12 <kmc> how many stamps are needed to redeem valuable prize
19:17:54 <Bike> acid3 isn't smooth. FAILURE
19:18:16 <shachaf> no one cares about acid tests
19:18:42 <elliott> what about electric kool aid ones
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19:19:51 <shachaf> there should be an acid test to test whether you're drugz
19:22:14 <shachaf> kmc was talking about how commercial gps devices stop working when they're too high
19:22:33 <kmc> too high and/or too fast
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19:22:45 <Bike> can't triangulate right?
19:22:59 -!- elieser224 has left.
19:23:06 <kmc> it's intentional, prevents them being used in missile guidance systems
19:23:29 <Bike> i wonder if rosscom has similar restrictions
19:23:39 <Bike> or the... whatever it is.
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19:23:47 <elliott> what the fuck is this person doing
19:23:49 <elliott> it's been going on for days
19:23:55 <shachaf> imo ##fixyourconnection hth
19:23:55 <Bike> GLONASS? what kind of fucking name is that, russia.
19:24:00 <elliott> shachaf: they're not even quitting
19:24:08 <kmc> iPhone 4S supports GLONASS
19:24:14 <Bike> GLObal kNow where you Are SystemS
19:24:20 <kmc> i think there is a tariff on GPS devices that don't support GLONASS
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19:24:37 <kmc> but i like to think that all GLONASS receivers look like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glonass-receiver.jpg
19:24:39 <elliott> `run echo 'echo "eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal"' >bin/e; chmod +x bin/e
19:24:40 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:24:49 <elliott> `run echo 'echo "eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what'"'"'s the deal"' >bin/e; chmod +x bin/e
19:24:55 <HackEgo> eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal
19:25:02 <elliott> hopefully i can type `e fast enough
19:25:06 <Bike> i... why did you make a program for that
19:25:10 <elliott> because they are too quick
19:25:16 <elliott> by the time i notice them they are gone!
19:25:22 <shachaf> elliott: I sent them a /msg before and they didn't respond.
19:25:32 <kmc> http://www.zazzle.com/eurion_constellation_t_shirt-235509764478000766
19:25:44 <Bike> the real problem here is that Elieser sounds too much like Elsevier
19:26:10 <Bike> t-shirt designed to fool t-shirt recognition systems
19:26:13 <kmc> i searched for "eurion shirt" and i got lots of "urine shirt", thx google
19:26:24 <olsner> hmm, a russian gps receiver ... isn't it fairly easy for the US to make GPS unusable for anyone they don't like? (like russia)
19:26:28 <Bike> http://elieser224.wordpress.com/
19:26:45 <Bike> olsner: glonass is the russian counterpart to gps, with its own satellites
19:27:19 <kmc> yup and that's why they need it
19:27:24 <Bike> the restrictions like kmc mentioned are probably a broad strokes thing to deal with non-state actors who don't have GPS devices registered to them or whatever, i'm sure
19:27:33 <kmc> eu has their own thing too
19:27:46 <elliott> this wordpress better be good (my system is slow)
19:27:52 <elliott> has kmc bought me a new computer yet
19:29:23 <olsner> I confused GLONASS with one of those things that improve GPS precision (perhaps something involving the ionosphere)
19:29:52 <shachaf> ion: tell us about the ionosphere
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19:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Jesus, the Syrian civil war's been going on for over two years now.
19:37:38 <Bike> you know their government issued a travel advisory about going to turkey being unsafe?
19:38:04 <fizzie> Except they probably don't all-caps it.
19:39:01 <shachaf> kmc: you should make a jit
19:39:12 <fizzie> Dance a jig, make a jit.
19:39:13 <Bike> and the burmese "civil" "war" has been going since basically 1945, shit happens
19:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_conflict_in_Burma
19:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how they only bother calculating death tolls for the last year or two
19:43:20 <Bike> Well, they haven't had a reliable census since, like, the Han dynasty.
19:44:30 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of futamura projections
19:44:53 <shachaf> i don't even own a television hth
19:45:04 <kmc> i hope i am not talking out my ass when i say that pypy is like one
19:45:21 <elliott> if you're talking out your ass it's probably because you're on drugz
19:45:38 <elliott> will drugz jokes ever get old
19:45:58 <elliott> hey guys there's a new brainfuck derivative
19:46:52 <Bike> a new brainfuck diffintegral
19:47:10 <kmc> we were watching 90s sketch comedy the other day for some reason
19:47:20 <kmc> i had to recalibrate to a world of bob dole jokes
19:47:37 <kmc> hulu should have little bubbles that pop up to explain who everyone is
19:48:17 <Bike> can you imagine explaining to your kids who mitt romney was
19:48:29 <Phantom_Hoover> futamura really needs to change his name to something that isn't a single vowel swap from futurama
19:48:44 <kmc> "a very rich man who tried to run for president and lost because nobody liked him"
19:48:49 <kmc> seems pretty straightforward
19:48:58 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: How about making it a consonant swap too?
19:49:26 <zzo38> If they say, "I'm a Sagittarius, which probably tells you way more than you need to know.", then what will be your response?
19:50:00 <zzo38> I might say, "Yes, but I don't think it tells me that which I do need to know."
19:51:23 <shachaf> kmc, oerjan: Do you think the whole "discrete calculus" thing is related to types?
19:51:41 <kmc> is this about holes
19:51:41 <shachaf> As in http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dgleich/publications/Gleich%202005%20-%20finite%20calculus.pdf
19:51:53 <shachaf> It's not that kind of derivative, I don't think.
19:52:02 <kmc> oh, then i don't know
19:52:23 <shachaf> but it's like all combinatorial and like discrete and stuff man so surely it's related..................
19:52:34 <kmc> i will leave that up to others
19:52:45 <kmc> the one you just linked? not yet
19:54:52 <kmc> perhaps after burrito
19:55:45 <Bike> http://twitpic.com/cuz9gf speaking of middle eastern wars (phantom hoover)
19:56:08 <Bike> is turkey part of the middle east? i guess maybe not.
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19:56:25 <HackEgo> eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal
19:56:42 <kmc> Bike: it's "the crossroads between middle east and europe", hth
19:57:02 <Bike> the slightly left of the middle east. got it
19:57:08 <kmc> pretty creepy that there's a total local media blackout on these protests
19:57:21 <kmc> and they cut off facebook / twitter at one point
19:58:32 <Bike> i don't know contemporary turkish politics but it sure doesn't reflect well on whoever's in charge
20:00:24 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:00:47 <Bike> especially since like, this started over a damn park
20:01:16 <oerjan> i see Phantom_Hoover is eager to get banned. also that he lacks a sense of humor.
20:01:46 <shachaf> do i lack a sense of humor
20:02:01 <oerjan> no, it's just very very wrong hth
20:02:22 <Bike> is this out-of-channel drama
20:02:46 <oerjan> no, it's logreading drama
20:02:53 <shachaf> oh no what happened in the logs
20:03:09 <elliott> you should ban the troll who said they'd put the channel on autojoin before they come back, ty
20:03:15 <elliott> you can ban ph at the same time if you'd like too
20:03:23 <oerjan> elliott: ooh, tempting.
20:04:11 <ion> shachaf: It’s the circular thing in which i reside.
20:04:13 -!- elieser2241 has left.
20:04:15 <oerjan> this new apartment stuff has interesting side effects: i'm now getting physical spam.
20:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <oerjan> this new apartment stuff has interesting side effects: i'm now getting physical spam.
20:04:34 <HackEgo> 1045) <oerjan> this new apartment stuff has interesting side effects: i'm now getting physical spam.
20:04:34 <elliott> oerjan: you should also ban this guy who keeps joining and parting.
20:04:38 <elliott> oh i guess that `e didn't ping them
20:05:13 <oerjan> these are all very reasonable requests, i shall put them in my queue
20:05:17 <elliott> oerjan: once you've done all that you can op me.
20:06:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
20:06:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also it's a trojan carrot honeypot hth
20:07:10 <oerjan> the trojans had some weird cuisine
20:08:03 <Taneb> ...are you sure, PH?
20:14:28 <Sgeo> http://hostilefork.com/rebmu/ REBOL dialect for code golfin
20:29:54 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:29:55 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ ¦ | | `\o/´ | | |
20:29:55 <myndzi> |\ >\ |\ | ´¸¨ /| >\ | /| /`\ /´\
20:30:34 <oerjan> i'm still worried about no. 5
20:31:10 <ion> Btw, how are æ and œ handwritten in countries that use them? I can think of multiple plausible ways.
20:31:29 <oerjan> myname: they don't look physically mauled
20:31:57 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/hb0paB8.png
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20:33:03 <oerjan> is wyoming usa's least populous state?
20:33:47 <fizzie> "List of U.S. states and territories by population" agrees.
20:34:00 <Bike> Ha, it has less people than DC.
20:34:02 <fizzie> (Though some territories have less people.)
20:34:52 <fizzie> Alaska has the lowest score if you go by population density (1.264 per square mile, vs. Wyoming's 5.851), though.
20:35:08 <oerjan> ion: http://webster.hibo.no/alu/norsk2/web07/berit/alfabet.html
20:37:16 <fizzie> Just hanging out with the other letters, I suppose.
20:37:47 <ion> oerjan: Thanks, but i’m interested of the drawing order of the curves.
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20:39:33 <oklopol> oh, it's actually a norwegian letter
20:39:39 <oklopol> learn something every day i guess
20:40:47 <oklopol> isn't ø enough for you guys
20:40:55 <olsner> å's a swedish letter as well
20:41:18 <oklopol> i thought it was only a swedish letter
20:42:20 <fizzie> I would think it's quite a different sound from ø; I mean, the å and ö of the Finnish alphabet are different.
20:42:27 <oerjan> ion: well i'm not sure i'm doing it properly myself, as i'd probably draw a part counterclockwise, upper e part counterclockwise, but i suspect that picture requires you to do the e clockwise
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20:44:12 <FireFly> Norwegian å is pretty much swedish å, no?
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20:45:03 <ion> Finnish å is pretty much Swedish å.
20:45:49 <oerjan> FireFly: i'm not sure it's exactly the same, but it's very close
20:45:59 <oklopol> (just to clarify in case someone knows as little about alphabets as i: finnish doesn't have å, but it's alphabet does)
20:46:43 <FireFly> To provide backwards compatibility with Swedish?
20:47:14 <oklopol> we also have things like w and x
20:47:34 <FireFly> That's like q in swedish I guess
20:47:41 <oklopol> none of which are used in finnish words (except some loanwords, but then again those use a lot of letters our alphabet doesn't have)
20:47:55 <olsner> å was probably handy back when everyone in finland was forced to learn swedish
20:48:02 <fizzie> W we have in some Finnish-enough surnames. (Waltari, for example.)
20:48:07 <fizzie> olsner: Everyone still is.
20:48:23 <ion> “back” when everyone in Finland “was” forced to learn Swedish?
20:48:30 <oerjan> <elliott> you totally fucked up this quote <-- well for one thing it should have been in french, no?
20:48:39 <fizzie> olsner: Sure. The requirement is a popular point of debate, though.
20:48:45 <olsner> I thought finland became "independent" at some point
20:48:48 <fizzie> olsner: There's a petition to abolish it and so on.
20:48:53 <ion> olsner: Hah
20:49:54 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish <- notable!
20:50:26 <oklopol> http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakkoruotsi apparently this is really important
20:51:04 <fizzie> The logo is kind of misleading, in that I don't think they're actually advocating the removal of Å from the alphabet.
20:51:09 <fizzie> (Except maybe as a long-term goal?)
20:51:15 <Bike> language is the weirdest
20:51:19 <Bike> let's just abolish words
20:51:33 <olsner> fizzie: you should just switch to unicode as the alphabet
20:51:33 <ion> https://twitter.com/0xabad1dea/status/340964678807216128 https://github.com/search?p=3&q=extension%3Aphp+mysql_query+%24_GET&ref=searchresults&type=Code
20:52:11 <fizzie> olsner: At least it would make those "write every letter of the alphabet" exercises kids have to do in school a lot more "fun".
20:52:25 <ion> shachaf: no u
20:52:43 <shachaf> ion: (i was talking "about the so easy thing")
20:52:47 <ion> shachaf: i know
20:53:19 <olsner> U+0003 is end of text, so I guess you don't have to go any further than that
20:53:57 <ion> The “write every letter of the alphabet” exercises would have been much nicer if you only had to write U+0001…U+0003.
20:54:08 <FireFly> Especially considering they're all control characters
20:54:26 <fizzie> Why did that not end this channel.
20:54:27 <ion> END OF PSYCHIC
20:58:48 <ion> Some pimples , especially schoolchildren and especially in those parts of Finland where there are few or no Swedish speakers ( Finns ), want to make Swedish an optional subject. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsv.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FObligatorisk_svenskundervisning_i_Finland&act=url
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20:59:33 <ion> It is argued that the Swedish-speaking population in Finland (5.5 percent of the population [2] ) have mastered Finnish so well that a pimple not in touch with these would need some knowledge of Swedish.
21:00:01 <fizzie> "[This article is about the community. For skin condition, see Acne.] Pimples are people who have Finnish as their mother tongue , for example in Finland , Russia , Estonia , Sweden or Norway , or in the more general sense identifies with origins in Finnish culture and Finnish languages ."
21:00:25 <fizzie> "In Sweden, not everyone is aware of the distinction pimple-Finns and therefore, --"
21:01:44 <Bike> what an unfortunate demonym.
21:02:21 <fizzie> "Pimple and proud of it," I think their slogan is.
21:03:41 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> dahlnet <-- THAT'S IT I HAVE TO BAN YOU NOW. OH LOOK, BUTTERFLIES!
21:04:02 <shachaf> oerjan: hang on hang on who's talking about dahlnet
21:04:11 <oerjan> shachaf: Phantom_Hoover was
21:04:39 <oerjan> fizzie: is pimple a translation from finnish dwh
21:04:40 <shachaf> we could do with some roald dahl inspired esolangs
21:05:36 <HackEgo> 2013-04-13.txt:21:44:48: * oerjan invites a giant (not BFG) to shachaf's home
21:06:08 <oerjan> shachaf: no no it's feeding hungry people hth
21:06:38 <HackEgo> 2010-01-17.txt:00:23:33: <ehird> I like to imagine space elevators are exactly as Roald Dahl imagined.
21:07:39 <Bike> dahl's space elevators are the best
21:08:02 <olsner> they are the best way to elevate into dahlspace
21:08:20 <Bike> is Dahlspace a brothel
21:08:23 <olsner> not necessarily best for other purposes such as eating
21:08:38 <fizzie> Stop dihlly-dahllying around.
21:10:03 <ion> https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dahl
21:10:35 <ion> https://encrypted.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=dahl&tbs=imgo:1
21:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> my sister had to dress up as a roald dahl character for some school thing once
21:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i suggested she dress as the lady from lamb to the slaughter; sadly this suggestion was declined
21:12:57 <fizzie> Based on 20 images, #794e57 is the color of Dahl.
21:13:42 <fizzie> (For the Flickr version.)
21:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> thus far "phantom hoover" is a fairly disappointing http://zem.fi/gcolor-examples
21:17:57 <fizzie> Many things do end up greyish-brown in the end.
21:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> why didn't you use google images for the in-browser version
21:18:54 <fizzie> There wasn't a proper API for it.
21:18:59 <fizzie> I'm not sure if there is these days.
21:19:35 <fizzie> The non-browser version is done by ugly crawling, if I recall correctly.
21:19:36 <olsner> is greyish-brown the color of the internet?
21:20:03 <kmc> http://thisrecording.com/today/2011/6/1/in-which-we-consider-the-macabre-unpleasantness-of-roald-dah.html
21:21:49 <shachaf> kmc: you're missing out on wild speculation on comonoids
21:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, i note that there are a few greyscale images which are massively skewing the results
21:22:57 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, should probably have done something about that. (It's of course due to the weighting that tries to generally emphasize "single-color" images.)
21:23:01 <Bike> like besides the racism, or
21:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think an important stage in one's development is looking back at roald dahl stories and thinking "jesus christ what the fuck"
21:23:32 <elliott> Bike: i have probably thought of dr seuss like ten times since actually reading the books, i didn't know he was racist!
21:24:06 <Bike> Well, back in WWII he made some rather unfortunate political cartoons involving the Japanese.
21:24:10 <Bike> I think he got over it later, though.
21:24:23 <elliott> "I am all fucked out. That goddamn woman has absolutely screwed me from one end of the room to the other for three goddam nights." pretty hilarious to imagine roald dahl writing this
21:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, "After the war, though, Geisel overcame his feelings of animosity, using his book Horton Hears a Who! (1954) as an allegory for the Hiroshima bombing and the American post-war occupation of Japan, as well as dedicating the book to a Japanese friend."
21:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you know what lamb to the slaughter is about right
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21:25:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i was hitherto unaware of its existence
21:25:30 <Bike> also his wife and him were real mad about people using "horton hears a who" as an anti-abortion thing
21:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i read it ages ago when i found it in a school library
21:25:58 <Phantom_Hoover> as i recall my immediate reaction was 'jesus what the fuck'
21:26:05 <elliott> man, a lot of the roald dahl books i read were published in the 80s
21:26:13 <elliott> they... felt a lot older, somehow
21:26:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: well, that's, pretty dark.
21:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> the only other story i remember from that collection was something to do with a guy betting his daughter on a friend not being able to work out where some wine is from
21:26:29 <Bike> never heard of it before now.
21:26:49 <Bike> I have, however, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jelly_(short_story)
21:27:00 <Bike> Which is pretty "jesus what the fuck" inducing.
21:27:23 <Bike> ...wait, there was a Twilight Zone Magazine?
21:27:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think i'm having a "jesus christ what the fuck" moment about The Witches right now
21:27:31 <elliott> what was up with that book
21:27:44 <elliott> n.b. my recollections are very vague
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21:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> it was a bit too jesus christ what the fuck even for my young mind
21:28:15 <Bike> i think The Witches is pretty much a wakeup call for lots of kids
21:28:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: you missed out on some good -lens
21:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, that what, roald dahl books are extremely weird?
21:29:12 <elliott> also that women are evil "wake up sheeple"
21:29:33 <elliott> imagine a time where people could use the word "sheeple" without immediately giggling. could it exist
21:29:46 <Bike> wasn't it originally made up as a joke?
21:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/TheWitches.jpg
21:30:12 <Bike> Alternative forms: sheople
21:30:16 <Phantom_Hoover> how can you look at this and think it is anything but some kind of surreal horror novel
21:30:26 <elliott> Bike: wow that short story synopsis
21:30:35 <shachaf> was the witches the book with the mouse maker
21:30:38 <Bike> elliott: it's weirder actually reading it, i assure you
21:30:52 <Bike> my parents got me a roald dahl omnibus with that story and others like it in it
21:31:01 <lambdabot> *** "omnibus" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:31:01 <lambdabot> adj 1: providing for many things at once; "an omnibus law"
21:31:01 <lambdabot> n 1: an anthology of articles on a related subject or an
21:31:01 <lambdabot> anthology of the works of a single author
21:31:03 <Bike> i was pretty much beyond the "kid" stage by then, but still, jfc
21:31:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <shachaf> was the witches the book with the mouse maker
21:31:17 <olsner> aah, the one with the mice and something ... I don't remember what else it was about, but vaguely recall liking it
21:31:27 <Phantom_Hoover> yes and the ending is the protagonist getting turned into a mouse
21:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> and he's like "oh i guess i only have 9 years left to live, cool"
21:31:49 <Bike> «The Wall Street Journal first reported the label ["sheeple"] in print in 1984; the reporter heard the word used by the proprietor of an American Opinion bookstore affiliated with the John Birch Society.[1] In this usage, taxpayers were derided for their blind conformity as opposed to those who thought independently.»
21:31:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: man i think that ending gave me emotional issues
21:31:56 <Bike> john birch society is the best imo
21:32:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i was like... would i be okay with being a mouse
21:32:22 <elliott> Bike: wait, wait. holy shit. i thought sheeple was like, an archaic or made up plural or singular or something of "sheep"
21:32:28 <elliott> Bike: it's... literally sheep + people...
21:32:33 <Bike> eh? no it's- yeah.
21:32:41 <mnoqy> elliott: you didn't know?
21:32:50 <Bike> haven't you ever heard "a sheeperson"
21:33:02 <Bike> man "people" is such a weird fucking word though
21:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the essential lesson one must learn from roald dahl is that children themselves are essentially evil
21:33:07 <Bike> apparently it's from etruscan?? what
21:33:14 <elliott> sheeple is now even funnier to me
21:33:25 <elliott> ok so back to my emotional issues re: being a mouse
21:33:32 <Bike> "Originally a singular noun (e.g. The people is hungry, and weary, and thirsty, in the wilderness --2 Samuel 17:29, King James Version)" this is bullshit
21:33:35 <Bike> mice are pretty cool
21:33:37 <Bike> don't think i'd want to be one
21:33:49 <elliott> shit i wouldn't be able to do anything
21:33:53 <elliott> everything would have to do things for me
21:33:58 <shachaf> Having returned home, the boy and his grandmother then concoct a plan to destroy all of the world's witches. Learning the location of the witches castle from the hotel's records, they will travel to the Grand High Witch's Norwegian castle (having stolen her notebook), use the potion to change her successor and retainers into mice, then release cats into the castle to kill them. Using the Grand High Witch's money-making machine and information ...
21:33:58 <elliott> ...and that's how I got where I am today
21:33:59 <Bike> maybe if i could be like, every mouse? that might be ok.
21:34:04 <shachaf> ... on the whereabouts of all of the world's witches, they will repeat the process all over the world. The grandmother also reveals that as a mouse, the boy will probably only live about another nine years, but the boy doesn't mind it, because he doesn't want to live any longer than his grandmother.
21:34:09 <shachaf> i didn't remember that........
21:34:12 <mnoqy> mice have small brains so probably oyu wouldn't care
21:34:17 <Bike> elliott: exactly
21:34:37 <shachaf> Bike: how would you like to be 100 elephants
21:34:37 <mnoqy> being turned into a mouse is probably kind of like dying
21:34:47 <Bike> Being an elephant sounds uncomfortable.
21:35:03 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=143
21:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> jbs haldane's stories are like roald dahl except you look back on them and are like "wow that is ridiculous in a good way"
21:35:27 <Bike> Er. Haldane wrote kids books?
21:35:44 <Bike> OK, yes, I think you have.
21:35:47 <Bike> It's still really weird though.
21:35:57 <shachaf> there was a book by terry pratchett with a rat king
21:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> the ones where he has a wizard friend and he fights capitalism and goes to india
21:36:05 <Bike> He's like... oh, right.
21:36:12 <Bike> That makes less lack of sense.
21:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> and there's an unrelated one where some brothers try to defeat rats with science
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21:37:12 <Phantom_Hoover> and another one about a south american silver baron getting eaten by an alligator?
21:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't even recall anything massively racist which considering the geographical scope is p. impressive
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21:44:48 <elliott> Switch Bitch is a 1974 short story collection for adults by Roald Dahl. The book is made up of four stories: "The Visitor," "The Great Switcheroo," "The Last Act," and "Bitch".
21:44:51 <elliott> The stories had been written by Dahl for Playboy magazine and published separately in 1965.[1]
21:47:35 <mnoqy> that's quite the name
21:50:42 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners
21:50:46 <HackEgo> 1046) <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners
21:51:38 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: intothecontinuum
21:51:48 <elliott> it has pretty pictures so it's hard to hate
21:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> (thank god, i was worried for a minute it'd be matthen)
21:55:51 <Phantom_Hoover> uh, remember that javascript thing where you fly a rocket around in a 2d solar system
21:55:52 <mnoqy> the [more] link, it looks like
21:56:26 <oerjan> <shachaf> kmc, oerjan: Do you think the whole "discrete calculus" thing is related to types? <-- i dunno hth
21:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> except he also maths tutored me a couple years back to stop my brain from atrophying so i was already on edge wrt people in real life being on the internet
21:57:23 <shachaf> i bet kmc didn't even read that pdf
21:57:45 <oerjan> <elliott> because of the 1 <-- also the e hth
22:02:03 <mnoqy> elliott: on matthens thingy
22:02:22 <elliott> ps how come everyone knows this matthen persons blog and not me
22:02:25 <elliott> i mean i remember the thingy but still
22:02:37 <mnoqy> i dont know the blog
22:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> http://blog.matthen.com/post/51566631087/quasicrystals-are-highly-structured-patterns-which
22:02:39 <mnoqy> i just figured to check
22:02:42 <mnoqy> since ph mentioned it
22:03:12 <Bike> maybe i should try to know a thing or two about computational linguistics
22:04:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oh dear, i just remembered he works in speech recognition
22:04:22 <elliott> thank you, i was just about to click the link
22:04:35 <Bike> why does elliott not like speech recognition
22:04:37 <Bike> did fizzie kick him
22:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well if kmc was referred to in a post about speech recognition...
22:08:23 <mnoqy> speech recognition is cute and not worth hating
22:08:32 <elliott> mnoqy: it's fucking terrible. like biology
22:08:40 <mnoqy> biology is cute and not worth hating
22:08:43 <shachaf> speech recognition is the best
22:08:46 <elliott> Bike: have you seen how he reacts to it? it's great
22:09:37 <Bike> who reacts to what
22:09:52 <elliott> Bike: haha this robert gottlieb letter to dahl is great
22:09:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:52 <elliott> did the bfg actually stand for the big fucking giant originally. i hope so
22:11:23 <Bike> haah, standing ovation
22:12:44 <Bike> well no i haven't seen such reactions
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22:18:30 <elliott> "We love your books, but we have a problem... we are Jews!!"
22:20:33 <oerjan> it's ok Phantom_Hoover i would have said it if you didn't
22:21:10 <elliott> why does this article about dahl finish with a bunch of death cab for cutie mp3s
22:21:40 <Bike> It's appropriate.
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22:33:09 <elliott> The Scottish concept of the "Caledonian antisyzygy", the duality of a single entity, is a key driving force in Scottish literature, and it appears especially prominently in the Tartan Noir genre. -- wp
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22:33:45 <Bike> those words are made up right.
22:34:05 <Bike> kilts in detective noir sounds good though
22:34:13 <elliott> i swear to god it's an actual article with that actual quote
22:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think inspector rebus wore a kilt with any regularity
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22:41:21 <kmc> shachaf: i found out that Josh follows two Twitter feeds
22:41:25 <kmc> @caltrain and @_FloridaMan
22:41:47 <Bike> should be a command.
22:41:53 <kmc> CALTRAAAAAIN
22:42:41 <shachaf> kmc: Do you need anything else?
22:43:29 <kmc> "Please bring me news of the trains in this province, and the fools of the far away swamp country"
22:44:13 <elliott> kmc: should i take caltrain
22:44:18 <kmc> shachaf: fairly yes
22:44:23 <kmc> elliott: not if you can help it
22:44:33 <kmc> elliott: yes
22:45:00 <elliott> http://www.caltrain.com/Assets/Buttons/Large+Middle+Buttons/2013+Giants+Baseball.gif caltrain watches sports
22:45:03 <shachaf> elliott: You should take Caltrain!
22:45:27 <Bike> kmc is not a number(ed inmate in the prison-industrial system on trumped up drug charges), he is a free individual
22:45:38 <kmc> yeah little known fact, the caltrain tracks run straight through AT&T Park at grade
22:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, have you advanced to the point of actual trainspotting
22:46:16 <Bike> shachaf: fucking like, twelve free, at least
22:46:24 <elliott> trains potting is when you smoke the weed marihuana on trains
22:46:31 <kmc> trains just come through blasting the horn without stopping
22:46:42 <kmc> baseball players have to run for their lives
22:46:46 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/toddler-junkie-immediately-hooked-on-looking-at-tr,32025/
22:46:57 <elliott> kmc: i've chosen to to believe that what you are saying is true
22:46:58 <mnoqy> COOL IDEA: what if you had, like, a train, but it runs on, weed
22:47:07 <mnoqy> like you shovel the weed into the engine to make it go
22:47:11 <Bike> i know there are airports like what kmc describes
22:47:15 <Bike> frankly terrifying
22:47:21 <kmc> slash what.
22:47:37 <Bike> well like, you know how in gibraltar there's so little land that a highway goes through the airport runway
22:47:40 <Bike> it's like that
22:47:43 <elliott> mnoqy: does weed come out of the bit where the smoke comes out
22:47:46 <kmc> that's terrifying
22:47:49 <elliott> do the animals in the farms get hhhhigh
22:48:04 <kmc> wait so the train crosses the runway at grade??
22:48:16 <Bike> what's "at grade", like, at a slope? i doubt it
22:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> you only get high inside the train when driving through tunnels
22:48:32 <shachaf> elliott: you pipe the smoke through the passenger cars hth
22:48:33 <kmc> it means "on the same level" rather than in a tunnel or a bride or shit
22:48:52 <Sgeo> AW citizenship is goinf free
22:48:59 <shachaf> crossing the runway on a bride??
22:49:26 <Sgeo> Don't know whether to be happy, or worried
22:49:35 <Bike> why do you not mean advance wars.
22:49:37 <Sgeo> Cybertown went free too for its last year or so of its existence
22:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> you should be happy that aw is dying and you can actually grow up finally
22:50:17 <Bike> oh wow i didn't make this up!
22:50:23 <Bike> A unique level crossing exist near Gisborne, in which the Palmerston North - Gisborne Line crosses one of Gisborne Airport's runways. Aircraft landing on sealed 1310-metre runway 14L/32R are signalled with two red flashing lights on either side of the runway and a horizontal bar of flashing red lights to indicate the runway south of the railway line is closed, and may only land on the 866 m section of the runway north of the railway line. Whe
22:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> the runway at gibraltar infamously runs right across the only road in and out of it
22:51:07 <kmc> Bike: awesome
22:51:38 <Bike> Use your imagination.
22:52:26 <elliott> its insensitive to ask for pics of my nonexistent imaginatinon kmc
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22:52:34 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh-gL7_UgHs i guess
22:52:42 * Bike googles, finds http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2595/3680915019_4e8a1661ba.jpg?v=1246541217, calls it good despite that not being it
22:53:33 <Bike> hm, this airway forum (what) couldn't find a good photo
22:53:50 <kmc> that video has it at like 3:00
22:53:55 <shachaf> kmc: what do you think of leland stanford, i heard he liked trains
22:54:03 <kmc> he's a robber baron
22:54:13 <Bike> https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=gisborne+airport+new+zealand&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=33.489543,69.082031&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Gisborne+Airport,+New+Zealand&ll=-38.667401,177.978387&spn=0.008059,0.016866&t=h&z=16 aha
22:54:18 <shachaf> are you saying you're not a fan
22:54:38 <Bike> good lord the editing in this video
22:55:04 -!- Vorpal has joined.
22:55:28 <shachaf> PLAAAAANE TRAAAAAIN: http://bvargo.net/f/plane_train.jpg TRAAAAAIN PLAAAAANE: http://myairplanes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/an-225-dan-ka1.jpg
22:56:16 <elliott> so where did the CAAAALTRAAAIN thing come from
22:56:26 <Bike> they should make the train plane a regular thin
22:56:41 <shachaf> you mean the all-uppercase, multiple-A thing????
22:56:47 <Bike> a regular thing
22:57:19 <shachaf> there's a channel for everyone who likes trains: #cslounge-trains
23:03:09 <mnoqy> is cslounge good? it sounds like something that would be bad
23:04:00 <shachaf> it depends on if u like counterstrike..........................
23:07:06 <shachaf> but #cslounge-trains is for people who like trains
23:07:14 <shachaf> and maybe for people who like people who like trains
23:07:27 <elliott> what about people who like people who like trains
23:07:29 <shachaf> tho trains are kind of rubbing off on me.....
23:07:58 <Sgeo> I take trains every weekday. Therefore I am obligated to join.
23:12:44 <Bike> kmcspotting could be a movie about death in the startup industry. scored by clint mansell
23:13:14 <elliott> Sgeo: aren't you obligated to join every channel mentioned on irc
23:13:37 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, except for one.
23:14:34 <Sgeo> The auto-kline channel I happen to know of
23:15:18 <elliott> i don't think there are any auto-kline channels on freenode
23:15:28 <mnoqy> imo join it and find out
23:15:39 <elliott> i know of some that are locked out and redirect to a "no" channel tho
23:15:52 <elliott> what is this channel, i'll try it on my local connection
23:17:16 <elliott> 00:17 -!- Topic for #Thai-Help: Leave this channel right away or you'll be banned from the network!
23:17:19 <elliott> 00:17 -!- Topic set by BearPerson [] [Sun Apr 22 16:37:07 2007]
23:17:24 <elliott> yo sgeo i'm pretty sure someone was fucking with you
23:17:26 <elliott> 00:17 [@ChanServ] [ testingblamesgeo] [ tomaw]
23:18:14 <Sgeo> * #Thai-Help :End of /NAMES list
23:18:31 <elliott> you can't list names of most channels you're not in...
23:18:40 <elliott> try /names #haskell-lens for example
23:19:07 <elliott> how did you determine this channel was an auto-kline exactly
23:19:17 <Sgeo> It was discussed on #freenode
23:19:57 <Sgeo> There is also a log of another chatroom that mentions it
23:20:47 <Sgeo> http://ircarchive.info/perl/2007/5/19/89.html
23:21:34 <elliott> I joined this channel and now I can't access freenode anymore. What's going on?
23:21:37 <elliott> Apologies for the inconvenience. Due to problems with drones and automated clonebots, we've had to institute automated network bans when clients join certain channels. Please contact support at freenode dot net, providing your IP address to be unbanned.
23:21:42 <Bike> ok, well, that's boring, so, has anyone else been reading up on this "D-Wave Controversy": http://www.archduke.org/stuff/d-wave-comment-on-comparison-with-classical-computers/
23:21:42 <elliott> well this faq could just be outdated ofc
23:21:58 <elliott> Bike: scott aaronson has been going on about them for years
23:22:02 <Bike> it's pretty funny that this company made this computer thing and nobody's even sure if it actually works?
23:22:07 <Bike> yeah that's where i got this
23:22:10 <elliott> Sgeo: anyway #thai-help certainly doesn't ban you now
23:22:22 <zzo38> The modes +PQ kind of suggests that
23:22:31 <elliott> i don't know what +PQ does
23:22:53 <zzo38> +P is permanent, +Q is you cannot be forwarded to this channel.
23:22:55 <Sgeo> -NickServ- Last addr : ~karsten@sourcemage/wizard/freenode.staff-emeritus.BearPerson
23:23:48 <elliott> that topic was set in 2007
23:24:02 <elliott> i accept it likely actually did autoban you in 2007
23:24:13 <elliott> i somewhat suspect that no channel currently does however
23:26:11 <zzo38> Well, the +PQ mode, the topic message (I cannot see it; it is set you cannot be seen unless you joined), and the "freenode.staff-emeritus" all suggest that at least it used to, or was intended to, at one time, ban you.
23:27:08 <Bike> do you think you could get hep with thai food
23:27:10 <Bike> i hear it's pretty good
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23:30:23 <elliott> does anyone know if there is an easy way to get youtube to play 480p instead of 360p by default
23:31:31 -!- elieser2241 has joined.
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23:32:06 <Bike> if someone tells you, tell me
23:33:24 <mnoqy> what is with that elieser guy
23:34:24 <elliott> Bike: do you also hate those videos where changing the quality doesn't immediately reload but instead the cog thing kinda spins a bit and then it switches over smoothly at some point but the problem is when it starts the 480p video the scaling is a bit weird and it looks slightly off (like it's deinterlaced or something??) so you have to fullscreen it and exit that to get it looking right (this applies to all videos not just these) but it's not obvi
23:35:02 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/409ffce04839d2aced409327386fe26f/tumblr_mn6o2cJqx51rf4cqeo1_400.png did i link this? oh well.
23:35:06 <Bike> elliott: god that's terrible
23:35:25 <Bike> also The Joke is that because of my shitty connection it would actually be 240p->360p for me
23:35:31 <elliott> Bike: that it bothers me and i have to fullscreen and exit all the videos or the videos themselves
23:35:42 <Bike> just in general
23:35:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i feel like people aren't being sincere here!! are you sure you notice them being fucked before you fullscreen them
23:36:22 <mnoqy> Bike: that's a good picture
23:36:27 <elliott> my connection and computer aren't good enough for that
23:36:32 <elliott> i do 760p.... very occasionally
23:36:37 <Bike> what you have to understand is, i get my internet through a network of cans tied together with taut strings
23:37:03 <Bike> i like the idea of "maize" being formal
23:37:07 <Bike> is it considered formal
23:37:12 <elliott> my connection can do 1080p now
23:37:28 <elliott> youtube broke the fucking ?fmt= url thing
23:37:33 <elliott> so you can't even do it there before you load the page
23:37:58 <elliott> ALSO i don't trust that the ones where the cog spins a lot actually always change the quality
23:38:09 <Bike> This page was previously nominated to be moved. Please review the discussions and previous page moves if considering re-nomination: RM, Maize -> Corn, No consensus, 20 June 2007, Talk:Maize/Archive 2#Requested Move RM, Maize -> Corn, No consensus, 21 February 2011, Talk:Maize/Archive 3#Requested move
23:38:15 <elliott> ion: hey that worked this time
23:38:32 <Bike> Maize is a selected article on the Food Portal, which means that it has been identified as a high quality article by Food Portal standards.
23:39:04 <Bike> Corn as transitive verb
23:39:49 <Bike> oh my god half the talk page archives are about this
23:39:59 <Bike> International bias vs. American bias
23:40:43 <kmc> remember, not following US usage is "anti-American"
23:40:46 <Bike> well, the majority of ENGLISH speakers say corn. Why shouldn't it be Corn(maize)??? It makes NO SENSE??WacoJacko 06:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
23:41:04 <Bike> he uses eleven question marks for this issue
23:41:24 <Bike> huh, does "corn" mean "grain" in the UK? that's news to me
23:43:37 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: isn't elliott british and can tell me this himself
23:44:13 -!- elieser224 has joined.
23:44:23 <HackEgo> eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal
23:44:31 <mnoqy> `relcome elieser224
23:44:34 <HackEgo> elieser224: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:44:43 -!- elieser224 has left.
23:46:01 <elliott> alt can we get fizzie to ban them
23:46:11 <elliott> apparently the only thing they have said is "hola", and that was after several join/part cycles
23:46:15 <mnoqy> did anything happen with that what's his name guy
23:46:32 <mnoqy> gasoline/newstalker
23:46:49 <elliott> http://irc.canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/historicos/mychan20130516_pg8.html hm they are in this other freenode channel (found by googling) but don't do the /part thing there
23:46:55 -!- augur has joined.
23:47:41 <mnoqy> instead they do the ping timeout thing
23:48:03 <Bike> A venezuelan linux distro.
23:48:31 <Bike> "It is primarily designed as a solution for the computers of National Public Administration in accordance with the presidential decree number 3.390 about the use of free technologies in National Public Administration in the country. " well then
23:48:39 <kmc> Bike: did you see http://rubydoc.info/gems/rubysdl/2.1.2/frames
23:51:35 <Bike> ruby?????????????
23:52:06 <elliott> kmc: this documentation is how i feel
23:52:13 <kmc> ??????????????????????OpenGL??????????????????????????????
23:52:24 <kmc> ????????????????????????????????????????(??????????????MPEG??????????????????????????)??
23:52:45 <HackEgo> cat: e: No such file or directory
23:52:50 <HackEgo> echo "eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal"
23:53:07 <HackEgo> bash: r: command not found
23:53:11 <HackEgo> eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal
23:54:10 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:56:39 <shachaf> kmc: /set show_nickmode_empty off # hth
23:57:40 -!- dessos has joined.
23:58:30 <shachaf> just think about how great corn mazes are
23:58:55 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:03:32 -!- Bike has joined.
00:10:25 <shachaf> kmc: when's your interview
00:11:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andor
00:11:34 <shachaf> And/or, logical conjunction
00:21:15 <kmc> interview tomorrow @ 11am
00:21:19 <kmc> flight the day after in afternoon
00:22:25 <elliott> how can you do anything at 11 am
00:23:49 <shachaf> kmc: do the trains at at&t park go at 3mph like in palo alto
00:25:34 <kmc> elliott: drugz
00:25:52 <elliott> you can't use the caffeinz when you're still asleepz
00:27:01 <shachaf> you can when you have an iv drip hth
00:28:35 <ion> Great life hacks: DIY IV caffeine drip
00:29:12 <elliott> only kmc is that into drugz
00:30:35 * pikhq_ sputters a bit at Haswell.
00:30:50 <pikhq_> So, they're sticking GPU RAM on-die.
00:30:57 <kmc> i think i can go with almost arbitrarily little sleep, for one night
00:30:58 <pikhq_> It's being shared with the CPU as L4 cache.
00:31:02 <Bike> i have a need for speed
00:31:19 <pikhq_> That is to say, shortly there will be CPUs with 128M L4.
00:31:54 <kmc> what's the latency
00:32:21 <elliott> i'd like a job that starts at 2 pm please & thank you
00:33:05 <kmc> i was looking at http://duartes.org/gustavo/blog/post/what-your-computer-does-while-you-wait again
00:33:38 <kmc> "To put this into perspective, reading from L1 cache is like grabbing a piece of paper from your desk (3 seconds), L2 cache is picking up a book from a nearby shelf (14 seconds), and main system memory is taking a 4-minute walk down the hall to buy a Twix bar.... Keeping with the office analogy, waiting for a hard drive seek is like leaving the building to roam the earth for one year and three months."
00:34:28 <elliott> computers, actually based on twixes
00:34:31 <mnoqy> that sounds like poor time management
00:34:41 <kmc> josh has given a review of "Sketches of Spain" by Miles Davis
00:34:44 <elliott> what do you have against twix mnoqy
00:34:45 <Bike> computers have a need to be free and spiritual.
00:34:48 <kmc> "it sounds like how i imagine spain might sound like"
00:34:53 <elliott> ok who is this josh guy you're all suddenly talking about.
00:34:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:34:57 <mnoqy> elliott: well, mostly the roaming the earth part
00:35:10 <Bike> i was just wandering the earth before i stopped being afk
00:35:24 <kmc> elliott: a friend of mine who shachaf had the (mis)fortune of meeting
00:35:40 <mnoqy> no, i just think maybe you should consider investing your time in something better
00:36:05 <shachaf> Bike: thats a euphemism for "yes i h8 u"
00:36:06 <Bike> btw what's the internet in this analogy
00:36:07 <elliott> mnoqy: i think you'll find roaming the earth is more fun than a job
00:36:10 <Bike> a trip to pluto?
00:36:20 <elliott> the internet is looking something up on the internet
00:36:24 <elliott> but you have a really slow connection
00:36:30 <elliott> so it takes a million years to load google
00:36:38 <mnoqy> elliott: yeah but just think of all the twixes you could buy in a year and three months
00:36:44 <elliott> mnoqy: i'm seeing your point
00:36:50 <shachaf> elliott: is that what packet loss is
00:36:59 <elliott> TODO: spend a year buying twixes, i bet i could make a popular blog around this concept
00:37:00 <shachaf> mnoqy: how about all the Flakes you could buy
00:37:14 <shachaf> mnoqy: have you ever had a Flake, i have
00:37:20 <mnoqy> i've never had a flake
00:37:25 <Bike> elliott: call it "Instead Of Reading From Disk", confuse everyone
00:38:56 <Bike> jsvine is gone too.
00:39:01 <Bike> is there nothing left?
00:39:11 <mnoqy> did the interview even really happen
00:39:27 <mnoqy> maybe we all just did a bunch of drugs on an island or something
00:39:54 <Bike> the esolangers interview was later made into a popular TV show, The Prisoner
00:40:09 <elliott> mnoqy: the term is "drugz" now
00:40:46 <Bike> I'd rather be in Twin Peaks but i don't think we have what it takes.
00:41:28 <zzo38> mnoqy: If the interview is logged, does that mean the log also did a bunch of drugz on an island or something?
00:45:22 <zzo38> Trip to Pluto? But, which glyph do you want to use for Pluto? (I like the "PL" glyph; the other one is too similar to the Neptune glyph.)
00:47:48 <mnoqy> i don't think i'd want to go to pluto
00:48:13 <shachaf> y would u go to pluto it s not even a planet
00:48:29 <zzo38> It is too far away; I don't want to go there, either.
00:48:38 <zzo38> There are other problems too.
00:49:04 <Phantom_Hoover> are we sure the entire jsvine episode wasn't just a fever-dream
00:49:13 <shachaf> can you imagine: pluto became a planet in 1930 and stopped being one in 2006
00:49:37 <zzo38> Well, look at the logs; if it is in the logs, then it isn't just a fever-dream (unless the logs are also a fever-dream)
00:49:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:50:02 <shachaf> that's only 76 years of being a planet
00:50:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:50:04 <zzo38> I don't like the IAU's new definition of a planet; I think both Pluto and Eris should be considered planets too, and so do some others.
00:50:10 <shachaf> raymond smullyan was discovered before pluto
00:50:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well he said he wouldn't be around much post-interview
00:50:46 <zzo38> But even if you follow the IAU's definition and call them dwarf planets and not planets, all the dwarf planets also ought to have glyphs assigned.
00:50:48 <shachaf> now it has to spend the rest of its life not being a planet "how do you think it feels"
00:51:03 <elliott> shachaf: i like the trivia of it not completing an orbit in the entire time it was a planet
00:51:17 <Bike> better luck next time, kuiper belt object
00:51:38 <Bike> and when i say "next time" i mean when humans are dead or whatever and some other species comes along and calls you a planet and then stops calling you a planet
00:51:53 <Bike> TRY TO MAKE IT LAST!
00:52:03 <zzo38> Some of them already do have glyphs, I have seen listed on some webpage about astrology, I don't think the IAU uses them, though (they don't care about astrology). But I think it doesn't matter if you don't care about astrology, you can use them anyways, including astronomy.
00:54:24 <zzo38> There are also two glyphs for Uranus; which one do you want to use?
00:55:57 <zzo38> Second one? Third one? In what list are these the second and third one?
00:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "maybe they won't be as good if you read them now", i thought
00:57:21 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: the great thing about saying "Maybe" is that you can't be wrong
00:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i realise now that it was a fundamental impossibility for them not to be amazing
00:58:16 <Bike> oh, the men who stare at goats
00:58:20 <Bike> i have a copy and i still haven't read it
00:58:37 <Bike> what's he usually write about
01:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> well his guardian columns were just his daily life written up in an incredibly funny way
01:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/sep/11/weekend.jonronson is the first
01:02:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/jan/15/weekend.jonronson oh my god
01:08:12 <shachaf> my name is jon ronson, i work in wisconsin
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01:10:19 <TastyToast> So I just posted a new language on the wiki ( http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binaryfuck ), but I'm curious to know if anything similar has been done before. Does this look similar to anyone? I feel like the possibilities that I was the first one to think of something like this would be very slim
01:10:45 <shachaf> now you've done it, TastyToast
01:11:06 <shachaf> get out of here while you still have a chance
01:11:27 <shachaf> there are bricks that you haven't even... you have no idea
01:11:28 <mnoqy> it looks similar to brainfuck and also a billion other brainfuck equivalents
01:11:36 <zzo38> I think someone else has done similar thing
01:11:56 <zzo38> But it is better than the similar ones, actually
01:11:59 <elliott> there is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spoon
01:12:04 <Bike> doesn't this exact thing exist
01:12:52 <mnoqy> TastyToast: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Triplet the most similar
01:12:53 <Bike> well, Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php is best
01:13:24 <mnoqy> wordfuck, verbosefuck
01:13:42 <zzo38> My own way would be a bit different: The least significant bits correspond to the first instruction of the program, and ] is zero. This way the program ends automatically.
01:13:55 <mnoqy> god damn why are there so many brainfuck equivalents just kill me
01:14:20 <Bike> basically, toastytoast, it's similar to everything done before, and there is nothing new under the sun. before god we are all but dust. praise be unto him, you vanity of vainness
01:14:39 <Sgeo> I think a binary encoding of BF should specify how to pad to fit into an integer number of bytes
01:14:43 <elliott> hm i find the 2001 claim on triplet's article suspect
01:14:53 <elliott> given the username TripletMaker and the "fork" from Ook! article claim
01:14:56 <elliott> suspect it should be 2011 instead
01:15:20 <coppro> if A is a language, what is P(A) and NP(A) again?
01:15:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pls link more jon ronson articles
01:15:26 <mnoqy> oOo code is pretty simialr too http://esolangs.org/wiki/OOo_CODE
01:15:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/sep/25/weekend.jonronson
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01:16:16 <TastyToast> well, I knew it couldnt have been similar
01:16:23 <mnoqy> there once was a fish named fred
01:16:45 <TastyToast> So.. Aren't all turing complete languages essentially brainfuck
01:16:51 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: birth of a weeaboo
01:17:05 <Bike> TastyToast: only in a sense that's less boring than the sense in which all the binary codings of brainfuck are brainfuck.
01:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/oct/02/weekend.jonronson
01:18:14 <Bike> i guess it's like starting out conlanging with a relex
01:18:24 <Bike> i don't think that's actually a word but
01:18:30 <elliott> 02:15:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/sep/25/weekend.jonronson
01:18:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/oct/09/weekend.jonronson
01:22:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/oct/23/weekend.jonronson
01:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> (have you all figured out how to work the guardian website and can i stop linking these)
01:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> TastyToast, i hear you made a brainfuck derivative, i hate you, i will brick your brain, etc.
01:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> back to ronson http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/nov/06/weekend.jonronson
01:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/nov/27/weekend.jonronson
01:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/dec/04/weekend.jonronson and on this chilling note i will end tonight's ronson session
01:35:48 <Phantom_Hoover> you realise you can click on the author's name and get a list of all his articles ever right
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01:36:24 <kmc> i went to the 97¢ Store today
01:36:31 <kmc> glad to see the race to the bottom continues unabated
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01:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, so is that like poundland but with a shittier gimmick
01:41:03 <elliott> i think i once saw something that didn't cost a pound in poundland
01:41:32 <shachaf> hang on hang on "poundland"........................................?
01:42:23 <kmc> yeah 'dollar store' is a common genre of store and often it's 99¢ store or 98¢ store, and sometimes 97¢
01:43:10 <shachaf> i remember dollar stores in .il
01:43:12 <Bike> isn't a pound worth likea billion dollars.
01:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i was thinking "so what, they don't have dollar stores in america for some crazy reason"
01:43:35 <shachaf> they used to have things for ₪4 each
01:44:05 <shachaf> those are the prices i remember anyway
01:45:50 <Gregor> Eventually there's a 1¢ store, and they figure they've cornered the market, but the ½¢ store just charges by pairs of items.
01:46:02 <shachaf> Gregor: did you read that one story..............................
01:46:09 <kmc> also not all of the things in the 97/ store are 97¢
01:46:10 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle_Imp
01:46:10 <lambdabot> Title: The Bottle Imp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
01:46:16 <shachaf> @google the bottle imp text
01:46:17 <lambdabot> http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/bottlimp.htm
01:46:17 <lambdabot> Title: The bottle imp (1893) by Robert Louis Stevenson
01:46:20 <kmc> usually the full store name is like "99¢ CENTS OR LESS and up"
01:46:25 <kmc> with the "and up" in much smaller letters
01:47:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i need more articles
01:48:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no i don't
01:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alternately: bring back news-ham and i'll keep the articles flowing
01:49:18 <Phantom_Hoover> or allow something so perfect to be deactivated so callously
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01:50:38 <elliott> news-ham: that's not how it works...
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01:51:27 <Bike> news-ham sounds like a job in Hamtaro, the hit children's cartoon
01:52:28 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Are you asfjad?
01:53:09 <mnoqy> probably nobody here knows who asfjad is, shachaf
01:53:40 <mnoqy> no, news-ham is dajfsa
01:54:20 <mnoqy> hm, that makes sense
01:54:40 <shachaf> also this person is..........."mighty suspicious".........
01:54:48 <mnoqy> have we ever seen this "dajfsa" around before
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03:35:50 <zzo38> I have been in dollar stores, the prices usually range from $0.30 to $1.25 and are usually $1.00 on average; sometimes there are more expensive items but they are still usually cost less than those things would ordinarily cost.
03:38:37 <irene-knapp> mostly because the things are made very cheaply :)
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04:52:57 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia, "An axiom system discovered by Jan Lukasiewicz formulates a propositional calculus in this language as follows": (p -> (p -> q)), ((p -> (q -> r)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> r))), ((~p -> ~q) -> (q -> p)), (p, (p -> q) |- q). Without the third one, this seems the SK calculus. Did Lukasiewicz invent the SK calculus?
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04:55:34 <zzo38> Could it be replaced with the "fantasy rule" to make lambda calculus?
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05:13:40 <zzo38> Which keys and mouse do you use and don't use?
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06:23:42 <zzo38> Do you know if there is any command in SDL to figure out the directory that the program is in?
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07:22:51 <zzo38> My Z-machine interpreter "Fweep" is now completely working (I think), so now I am making another Z-machine interpreter "Aimfiz", for use with SDL.
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08:53:37 <kmc> TIL that the band Orbital is named after the M25
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10:19:07 <elliott> til that kmc is named after i was relying on thinking of a punchline by the time i typed this far
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10:39:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27447
10:40:08 <shachaf> why isn ' t that text/plain
10:40:47 <shachaf> why is my browser offering to download
10:41:00 <mnoqy> ther'es only one mnoqy quote and it;'s the one you added with the bold in it
10:41:27 <HackEgo> 1044) <mnoqy> the theory's probably not bad, but calculus is one of those things that's so dang applicable that everyone only ever talks about how to apply it and compute with it and uuuuurgh(barf) <mnoqy> so i stay away from it
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12:26:12 <xantrixo> How could this be done in an esoteric lang? :D http://pastebin.com/eGqD0f16
12:27:33 <Taneb> xantrixo, esoteric programming languages are very diverse, did you have any particular one in mind?
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12:28:02 <xantrixo> Taneb: Your choice :) just interested to see how it would look.
12:29:30 <Taneb> Well, in some languages this is impossible (for instance Bitwise Cycling Tag and HQ9+)
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12:30:46 <Taneb> I wouldn't like to implement it in a primarily numeric language like Piet
12:32:24 <xantrixo> Bitwise Cycling Tag would be interested ot see it in that
12:32:42 <Taneb> xantrixo, it's impossible because BCT lacks any form of IO
12:33:04 <xantrixo> Oh sorry, I misread and thought you said it is possible
12:33:54 <Taneb> I don't know anything about J
12:35:14 <Taneb> For instance the capital city of the US state of Montana
12:36:07 <xantrixo> Taneb: What esoteric language do you know, is what I meant.
12:36:52 <Taneb> Piet, brainfuck, Befunge, Fueue, Underload, Thue...
12:37:43 <xantrixo> Taneb: How could it be done in underload?
12:37:56 <Taneb> Well, Underload can't do input
12:38:04 <Taneb> Or string equality
12:38:13 <Taneb> So it probably can't
12:38:26 <Taneb> It could be done in Befunge a LOT easier
12:38:52 <xantrixo> Would be interested in seeing this.
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13:22:54 <boily> good humid morning all!
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14:55:12 <boily> Taneb: seems that there are only the two of us today. any Great News about Intelligesoteritsia?
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14:59:06 <boily> not even an update on the II?
14:59:26 <xantrixo> I have been here waiting a while for my solution
15:00:13 <boily> xantrixo: o hai! what is the Original Problem pertaining to your The Solution?
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15:00:40 <xantrixo> <xantrixo> How could this be done in an esoteric lang? :D http://pastebin.com/eGqD0f16
15:03:56 <boily> oh hm. you could transcompile what you wrote into brainfuck. maybe some sick^W twisted^W alternatively minded person from this fine channel has already done the job (or part thereof).
15:06:22 <boily> xantrixo: after the first step, you just write a bf interpreter into your esolang of choice :D
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15:46:07 <boily> http://www.haskellforall.com/2013/05/program-imperatively-using-haskell.html ← shmock bait. another fine and interesting blog article, that will leave me in a temporary state of enlightenment followed by incomprehension and frustration when I try to grok lens by myself afterwards.
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17:15:23 <boily> `relcome sprocklem
17:15:27 <HackEgo> sprocklem: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:15:53 <boily> hmm... `relcome lacks enough blue tints.
17:16:01 <HackEgo> chicken: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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17:40:16 <quintopia> i wish this keyboard were capable of backticks
17:42:07 <boily> quintopià: what layout are you using?
17:44:34 <boily> if you have an HTC, you can do backquotes with the various chinese input methods.
17:46:37 <fizzie> I've installed that "Hacker's Keyboard" thing from the market to my Android thing. But maybe it's not all that combattible.
17:52:38 <zzo38> I have found that the SDL headers use a similar trick than I did to enforce that types have a certain size.
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18:06:15 <metasepia> CYUL 031700Z 24013G19KT 15SM SCT030 BKN045 16/08 A2984 RMK SC4SC3 SLP104 DENSITY ALT 300FT
18:06:18 <metasepia> EFRO 031750Z AUTO VRB03KT 080V150 CAVOK 21/15 Q1014
18:22:10 <oerjan> <Sgeo> AW citizenship is goinf free <-- this discrimination of goinfs has to end!
18:22:27 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/dec/11/weekend.jonronson RONSON TIME
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18:23:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> crossing the runway on a bride?? <-- is this kind of a dual competition to that wife-carrying thing finns love so much?
18:23:53 <oerjan> i suppose that would a mpetition
18:24:38 <oerjan> i guess technically the finns are crossing on grooms
18:26:47 <oerjan> <elliott> I DONT HAVR ONE <-- this is like not having, except more vikingish
18:27:09 <oerjan> i sense an underlying theme to today's logreading
18:27:25 <olsner> I'm not really sensing it, what's the theme?
18:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/jan/01/weekend.jonronson (i am mostly doing this to spite elliott)
18:27:49 <oerjan> olsner: to sense it properly, find a mispletoe
18:29:29 <oerjan> now you're thinking with puntals
18:30:05 <oerjan> <elliott> its insensitive to ask for pics of my nonexistent imaginatinon kmc <-- if elliott can have no imagination, then kmc can have no sense hth
18:31:40 <olsner> hmm, I wonder what I've learned during the last half decade or so, suspect it's not a lot
18:32:08 <oerjan> (you have learned haskell, no?)
18:32:51 <olsner> yes, but that might have been mostly longer ago ... not entirely sure when I was learning haskell
18:33:05 <olsner> or when I last learned more haskell
18:33:06 <oerjan> did you learn to eat sushi? (i haven't.)
18:33:48 <olsner> quite sure I still do it wrong, but I'm entirely fine with eating sushi the wrong way
18:34:20 <quintopia> there is no wrong way to eat sushi
18:34:49 <oerjan> maybe there is no wrong way to eat sushi. if someone tries to invent one, the japanese make it into a tv show and then it's not wrong any more.
18:35:18 <quintopia> she doesn't like to be eaten at all, but i suspect she's fine with being eaten out
18:36:11 <oerjan> eating out is all the rage.
18:37:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: angkor
18:37:53 <quintopia> you are talking about my friend @sushimustwrite correct?
18:38:14 <oerjan> i'm sorry i do not know your friend.
18:39:26 <oerjan> is your friend bad at english grammar
18:40:18 <oerjan> good, someone has to balance out all those against it
18:40:18 <Bike> oh good, it wasn't just me.
18:40:31 <quintopia> she knows she is for porn, tho. she's cool with it.
18:40:44 <oerjan> so she doesn't think the job blows?
18:41:00 <quintopia> well she's not just a big truck man
18:41:10 <quintopia> she's not something you can just dump something on
18:41:11 <Phantom_Hoover> wat http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/feb/05/weekend.jonronson
18:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> NO i will not have the name of watt dragged through the dirt by association with this conversation
18:42:12 <Bike> hm, maybe it's not so bad that they went out of business.
18:42:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: but we were just building up steam...
18:44:14 <oerjan> borders without doctors
18:45:24 <boily> `quote screaming fternooners
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18:52:52 <boily> quintopia: it's a nordic delicacy. according to ørjan (or olsner, I always get the two confused), it screams.
18:52:58 <boily> `pastlogs fternooner
18:53:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
18:53:04 <boily> `pastelogs fternooner
18:53:28 * boily whistles while it whiles away...
18:53:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17995
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19:00:57 <boily> ~duck napot, I said.
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19:17:24 <olsner> boily: aah, fternooners!
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19:24:23 <boily> oerjan: "a beautiful ftensang"???
19:25:49 <boily> I can't deny that assertion.
19:27:33 <shachaf> oerjan: did you finish logreading
19:30:02 <zzo38> Are some of you good at quantum computing?
19:31:10 <boily> zzo38: I am, and I am not.
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19:39:43 <zzo38> What is a portable way to tell what directory the running C program is in, in a program using SDL?
19:43:11 <oerjan> that is not quantum computing hth
19:44:24 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> TastyToast, i hear you made a brainfuck derivative, i hate you, i will brick your brain, etc. <-- wait does it really count as making a bf derivative if it's identical to an already existing one hth
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19:51:39 <boily> I knew it! http://whatsdifferentincanada.tumblr.com/post/51726269607/the-dentist
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19:54:30 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, in canada do you all have awful teeth because of socialised medicine
19:55:47 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: quite the contrary. dentistry is a very private affair here, but usually covered by your dental plan.
19:56:02 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, a few hours ago
19:56:08 <Taneb> There were 8 van Doorns in one room
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19:58:45 <boily> around christmas, there tends to be a lot of boilys (or is it boilies?) together, which gets very passive-aggressive year after year because of my cousins' lack of imagination.
19:58:55 <boily> (they tend to name their kids the same)
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20:00:27 <oerjan> the octodoorn. we are all doorned.
20:00:45 <shachaf> Taneb: You should've gone to that room!
20:01:01 <Taneb> shachaf, I was in that room!
20:01:09 <Taneb> That room was my dining room!
20:01:15 <oerjan> jean-claude and jean-claude, stop harassing jean-claude!
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20:05:09 <boily> oerjan: no jean-claude yet, sadly. but we do have multiple adams!
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20:05:53 <Taneb> My dad was named after his uncle
20:06:02 <Taneb> As was one of his brothers (a different uncle)
20:06:38 <oerjan> my uncle was named after his dad
20:06:53 <oerjan> only half the name though
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20:41:06 <boily> neat, I can track back my tree up to the settlers who came from France.
20:41:54 <boily> I'm a twelfth generation quebecker.
20:44:55 <Taneb> I'm a first generation Hexhamer
20:46:54 <boily> of course. you're all part of a collective hive mind, and split and form clones. so, counting generations would be a little bit awkward.
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20:49:21 <nooodl_> Taneb: the plural form of "van Doorn" is "vans Doorn" hth
20:49:47 <Taneb> nooodl_, but "van" is a preposition!
20:49:59 <oerjan> nooodl is of course the trial of nodl
20:50:23 <metasepia> A trial is, in the most general sense, a test, usually a test to see whether something does or does not meet a given standard.
20:50:38 <nooodl_> the plural form of "van Doorn" is "der Doorns" hth
20:50:58 <boily> nooodl_: are you standardized?
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20:51:36 <boily> I disagree. the plural of "van Doorn" is "les Doornes", but we should still ask our Plural Expert, namely fizzie, for confirmation.
20:52:52 <nooodl_> the plural form of "van Doorn" is "van Stengel" (complicated dutch joke imo)
20:53:17 <oerjan> the joke is quite simple imo
20:53:25 <metasepia> American baseball player and manager, most notably of the New York Yankees, a team he led to ten American League pennants and seven World Series championships.
20:53:39 * boily scratches his head in incomprehension
20:53:42 <nooodl_> imo ~eend for dutch word lookup
20:54:13 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:54:14 <boily> (that means I should also add ~鴨)
20:54:25 <boily> Bike: noted, not implemented.
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20:54:34 <Bike> notimplemented
20:54:36 <metasepia> Your divination: "Diminishing" to "Polarising"
20:57:36 <oerjan> it's 2013 and they _still_ make heating systems without thermostats?
20:58:30 <Koen_> I hear Germany has a super green plan to replace all nuclear plants with coal plants.
21:00:20 <boily> uhm... coal plants irradiate more than nuclear plants...
21:03:05 <Bike> i'm sure it's clean coal!!
21:03:39 <Gregor> Koen_: I shall cry for them :'(
21:04:09 <Koen_> I'm hoping they will replace their nuclear-powered submarines as well
21:04:59 <boily> what do you need a submarine for nowadays, except for scientific research?
21:05:11 <Gregor> lol, coal-powered submarine.
21:05:42 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/feb/12/weekend.jonronsonhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/feb/12/weekend.jonronson did i link this because i should have
21:07:19 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/feb/19/weekend.jonronson this is even better somehow
21:09:17 <boily> ............................................................................................
21:09:26 <boily> and a ; too, just because you really deserve it.
21:10:23 <Taneb> I just realised that in my head all punctuation sounds like "uh"
21:10:40 <Taneb> So that 'a' really weirded me out
21:10:50 <Taneb> Even though it makes perfect sense and is absolutely correct
21:12:41 <boily> those were French dots. they sound more like [œ〜ə].
21:13:02 <Taneb> I was really talking about the semicolon
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21:14:42 <boily> he... he disappeared! nooooooo!
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21:18:57 <boily> anyone here that can reasonably impersonate Taneb?
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21:32:56 <olsner> anyone know which values I want in which registers?
21:34:24 <olsner> (one of them is now "1" and that's wrong because that's not mapped anywhere in memory)
21:36:33 <oerjan> surely you want 42 somewhere hth
21:38:29 <olsner> Surely. But where? r12?
21:55:21 <myndzi> hey guys. no game of thrones s3e9 spoilers here: http://i.imgur.com/SbKfThn.gif
21:55:22 <myndzi> just thought i'd share
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22:12:27 <zzo38> Would having a goat in your neighborhood reduce the noise?
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22:53:19 <Koen_> experience tends to show that if you've had your nose broken less than four years ago and suddenly spend more than fifty hours without sleeping, you should be very careful while blowing it
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23:46:53 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/feb/26/weekend.jonronson i wonder if elliott is even listening
23:49:01 <Bike> Omen had a sequel? Why?
23:50:27 <Phantom__Hoover> because it was a horror movie and that's one of the fundamental rules of the world
23:51:53 <Bike> was there like a sequel to The Thing
23:55:46 <Bike> WRONG! The video game was a sequel. You've failed.
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00:09:29 <ion> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AVSq6lYUnYA/UXZVJS-qMnI/AAAAAAAABQY/a7ujINuJQpI/w506-h930-o/z_15ce2d9d.jpg
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00:12:09 <madbr> is there a good way to detect memory aliasing in software?
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00:16:14 <madbr> the algo I have atm is:
00:17:28 <madbr> - in the loop, if there are any read operations that can't be reordered to after generating all the memory write addresses, they have to be locked. This is done with a Memory_read + lock operation
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00:23:28 <madbr> - All the memory writes that can potentially alias with reads should be locked first, using a lock operation
00:24:10 <madbr> - Once all write addresses are locked, all the other memory reads can be done, using a memory_read + check operation
00:25:31 <madbr> - Also any locked read addresses from the first step can be unlocked, using an unlock operation
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00:26:47 <madbr> - Once all potential jumps are passed and it's sure the code isn't running speculatively, the real writes can be done, using a write + unlock operation
00:27:59 <madbr> It "works" and also supports read-modify (using a memory_read + lock instead of just a lock operation at step 2) but it's kinda convoluted
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00:28:24 <madbr> It uses like 5 different operations where a normal memory system would only have 2 o_O
00:28:26 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/mar/12/weekend.jonronson i hope you're all reading these
00:30:10 <madbr> also if a memory alias is detected it has to jump from some random location to a proper handler, invalidate all the cores that were speculatively doing wrong stuff, and also unlock the addresses that were locked but won't be unlocked now that the control flow won't go there o_O
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00:47:55 * Sgeo wonders if he could give REBOL similar scoping as Kernel
00:48:21 <Sgeo> Kernel operatives receive a lexical environment as an object, right? And eval takes one?
00:48:31 <Sgeo> Or am I misremembering
00:48:54 <kmc> (yes they do, no you're not misremembering)
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00:49:08 <kmc> shachaf and i are at world hq of http://www.em-labs.com/
00:49:12 <HackEgo> eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal
00:49:32 <Sgeo> Hmm, would be easy to make a variant of do that takes a word and forces that word's lexical environment on every word in the argument block
00:49:49 <Bike> kmc: ooh, that looks fun
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00:50:22 <kmc> yeah i know the founders from school
00:51:04 <Sgeo> Harder would be to make functions that take a block also take an environment... I mean, they could just peak at the first word in the block and assume that that's its environment
00:51:38 <kmc> hm it occurs that i don't actually know anything about REBOL
00:51:58 <Bike> Sgeo: well, that's why kernel environment parameters are all separated out.
00:51:59 <kmc> should i fix that
00:52:00 <Sgeo> Better idea: Give participating functions an /env refinement and have my doenv scan for words that have it
00:52:38 <Sgeo> Although, Rebol makes things tricky here by making it hard to determine where a functions arguments end
00:53:38 <Sgeo> Maybe a bit of currying...
00:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/mar/19/weekend.jonronson stop learning rebol Sgeo
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00:57:16 <Sgeo> Are the link and that statement related?
00:57:21 <Sgeo> Also, do you know anything about rebol?
00:58:04 <Bike> The link and the statement are related.
00:58:09 <Bike> It's a very cogent argument.
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01:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/jul/02/weekend.jonronson oh god this one
01:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2005/jul/16/creditcards.debt is also good but not particularly funny
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02:11:46 <keyzs> http://youtu.be/-KXgHqp2juQ
02:12:16 <keyzs> http://worldtv.com/tvp_global/
02:12:53 <Bike> Well shit, when you put it that way.
02:13:50 <Bike> "I wish Mr. Fresco would take a neutral position on who did 9/11. It's a touchy and divisive subject and there isn't likely to be consensus any time soon."
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02:16:03 <keyzs> laws of nature are inviolable?
02:16:39 <keyzs> Bike i believe that usa made 911
02:16:50 <Bike> `welcome keyzs
02:16:52 <HackEgo> keyzs: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:18:08 <Bike> zzo38: Who do you think made 911?
02:21:41 <keyzs> Bike the us puts people on poverty with the federal reserve bank ruled by 5 or 6 magnats of money, so why wouldn´t them cause a disaster to have a war and make devastation and profit over it?
02:22:14 <Bike> The banks really have got a lot of money out of the war on terror, haven't they.
02:22:20 <Sgeo> Flame war in the Rebol room about q
02:22:37 <Bike> I wish you'd take a neutral position on q, Sgeo.
02:23:30 <Sgeo> Guy is angry that q causes the interpreter to quit, and is worried about people accidentally quitting and then not realizing why they quit
02:27:02 <zzo38> Bike: Who made 9/11? Well, it wasn't made by just one guy. The USA did part of it, but not all of it.
02:27:19 <keyzs> Bike wars are about resources, there were resources themes behind story of 9/11, starts on politics and oil, what do you think was laden business?
02:27:37 <Sgeo> I'm on the side of the angry guy
02:28:08 <keyzs> He was born in the bin Laden family to billionaire Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden in Saudi Arabia.
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02:28:33 <keyzs> now figure it out :)
02:29:13 <Bike> bin Laden did 9/11? That sounds like a controversial idea.
02:29:47 <zzo38> I think it was partially the fault of the government of the United States, although it is also bin Laden's fault, and possibly a few others.
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02:34:30 <Bike> What do you think of SKI calculus?
02:36:42 <Phantom__Hoover> the us government faked 9/11, but then bin laden swooped in and took the credit
02:36:58 <Phantom__Hoover> they were just going to be like "yeah those towers tragically exploded"
02:37:04 <Bike> Maybe I should make an esolang called Northwoods.
02:37:19 <keyzs> can have multiple applications
02:41:01 <keyzs> Phantom__Hoover, i believe that it was more like a tragic happening partership, because some documentaries that i seen say that structure of the building was designed to resist plains hitting it, and the metal structure had chemicals to do erosion on airplain hits
02:42:28 <keyzs> us has business oil deals with multiple countries and arabs, most of them are coneceted to religion and arm businesses, so they are no flowers, play with the devil and then get it good
02:44:51 <Phantom__Hoover> i realise now that steering to the absurd was a bad idea for this conversation
02:45:37 <keyzs> saddam hussein was absurd too
02:45:40 <Bike> Hm, back in 1994 some people tried to crash a plane into the Eiffel Tower. I didn't know that.
02:46:28 <keyzs> all in name of resources, profit, lands and oil
02:48:55 <sacje> we went to vietnam to export some of our freedom to the poor, backwards communists
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02:49:02 <sacje> you need to check your facts sir
02:49:15 <Bike> Or nonbinary existence.
02:51:08 <Bike> Sgeo: Don't scare me like that!
02:56:49 <keyzs> sacje http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
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02:57:50 <keyzs> see that pic on wikipedia with the soldiers down?
02:57:55 <sacje> wikipedia is a known to be a hotbed for communist sympathizers
02:58:51 <Sgeo> Who are these people?
02:58:51 <keyzs> you can search on any search engine
02:59:44 <sacje> search engines are working for the chinese
03:00:10 <ais523> hey, what's going on here?
03:00:19 <ais523> some sort of channel invasion?
03:00:37 <Bike> Something like that.
03:00:46 <Bike> I think? I don't know what keyzs thinks of esolangs.
03:01:08 <sacje> lol i'm just messing around
03:01:18 <ais523> keyzs: sacje: do you understand what this channel is for, or do you just turn up to random channels as part of some sort of performance art thing?
03:01:54 <sacje> i know what it's for, i like esolangs and didn't know there was an irc channel for it
03:02:15 <sacje> i was kidding because i saw other people were talking about politics and figure it could use a dose of crazy
03:02:23 <ais523> I think it's mostly keyzs fault
03:02:30 <ais523> turned up recently, and hasn't said anything ontopic yet
03:05:26 <ais523> not so much other people
03:05:30 <ais523> as some sort of possible troll
03:05:36 <ais523> in general, though, this is a hard channel to troll effectively
03:05:50 <ais523> not impossible, but it isn't accomplished very often
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03:07:25 <ais523> hmm… I suspect keyzs is organised enough to actually check the list of ops before starting to troll
03:07:38 <ais523> because I didn't unstealth
03:07:53 <Bike> Or maybe they just wanted to stay until somebody mentioned that they were just spewing.
03:08:36 <Bike> Either way, thank you, O op.
03:09:28 <ais523> yeah, I was considering a ban
03:09:40 <ais523> but you test the waters first to see if people are reasonable or not
03:09:50 <ais523> I remember when a troll came in here a while ago
03:09:55 <ais523> and we kicked them about 10 times
03:09:59 <ais523> didn't bother banning, it was too funny
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04:09:30 <zzo38> Is there a way in MediaWiki to make a template to override another template inside a template which it calls?
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04:57:45 <Bike> So there are those crypto challenges that like kmc and shachaf were talking about probably. And related ctfs and stuff.
04:57:52 <Bike> Are there any like, open-ended challenges?
04:58:03 <Bike> "Here's an intercepted transmission from [fictional war], figure it out" or something
05:03:26 <kmc> Bike: are you a numbers station
05:03:37 <kmc> 0096 2251 2110 8105 0096 2251 2110 8105 0096 2251 2110 8105 0096 2251 2110 8105 0096 2251 2110 8105
05:04:48 <Bike> Yeah, Conet is why I'm asking.
05:04:53 <Bike> http://irdial.com/crackhome.htm
05:05:18 <kmc> i think those are mostly one-time pads
05:05:42 <Bike> Yeah but they put them up anyway.
05:05:52 <Bike> Maybe they just want to see amateur cryptanalysts lose their minds.
05:07:03 <kmc> there's that scullpture at the NSA
05:07:09 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptos
05:07:31 <kmc> skullpture
05:08:33 <Bike> I think the NSA is big on cryptanalysts losing their minds, so
05:08:50 <Bike> Dang, for a second I thought "encrypted sculpture" was going to be an article :(
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05:11:06 <Bike> These are shorter than I expected. Lincolnshire Poacher is apparently just 39715 over and over again.
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05:13:38 <Bike> Oh, it changed. 32348. 59378. makes me wonder if they switched to something steganographic and the numbers are just a ploy, though.
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06:09:29 <kmc> play numbers stations loudly outdoors at 2AM
06:11:21 <Bike> numbers stations set to led zeppelin
06:13:26 <kmc> orange! that's right!
06:13:36 <kmc> OORRAANNGGEE
06:14:00 <Bike> boards of lincolnhire
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06:51:39 <shachaf> kmc: 𝕳𝖆𝖑𝖋 𝖆 𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖊𝖗 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖙𝖒𝖚𝖝!
06:52:05 <kmc> that's a lot of � :/
06:52:10 <kmc> I guess you are showing off your new tmux?
06:52:29 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/s
06:53:56 <kmc> looks v. nice in my browser
07:21:17 <kmc> i wonder if birds ever eat something so heavy that they can't fly anymore
07:23:37 <kmc> shachaf and i saw a bird that was maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Scrub_Jay
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12:55:01 <elliott> ais523: can i get you to ban ~elieser22@190.121.238.14
12:55:08 <elliott> they keep joining and then parting seconds later and never saying anything!!
12:55:23 <ais523> elliott: recently, or a long time ago?
12:56:16 <ais523> I can see it three times in my scrollback, once they stayed here for several minutes
12:56:21 <ais523> so I'd say there isn't enough evidence yet
12:57:11 <ais523> like, it could be someone with a broken client, but I think it's more likely someone checking the channel manually to see if there's an active conversation
12:57:16 <ais523> and that's not a ban-worthy offence
12:58:11 <elliott> ais523: grep elieser224 *.log --> http://sprunge.us/VJBb
12:58:40 <HackEgo> eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal
12:58:44 <elliott> if they've been checking the channel then they've been ignoring that ^ several times
12:58:54 <elliott> admittedly it misses a letter of their nick
12:59:00 <elliott> but if they're checking manually, that shouldn't be relevant
12:59:26 <elliott> you can set up a ban that redirects them to ##fixyourconnection, that's what is done in #haskell for client/connection problems like that
12:59:50 <ais523> well, the pattern seems to have changed in the last several hours
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13:00:17 <ais523> so I think we'll see if it starts up again before a fix-your-connection ban (which is the only sort of ban I was considering)
13:00:58 <ais523> I can't redirect there, it doesn't have an allow-arbitrary-redirects mode set
13:01:10 <ais523> or maybe it does, is that mode +F?
13:01:37 <elliott> well you could consider bit a ban for flooding
13:02:00 <elliott> like, if someone joined just to say "a" every hour for a six-hour period every day, they should be banned
13:02:55 <ais523> but the temporary join and then part a bit later is harder to explain
13:03:13 <elliott> it's arguably twice as noisy as "a" :)
13:03:24 <elliott> probably equally in practice, since joins/parts are "quieter" than messages
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13:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe they have #esoteric on autojoin for some reason and are manually parting it every time they join?
13:21:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sounds like they'd be pleased to have their client be made unable to join #esoteric then
13:22:16 <elliott> `run echo 'echo elieser224: ¿por qué con frecuencia altas y bajas?' >bin/e
13:22:24 <HackEgo> elieser224: ¿por qué con frecuencia altas y bajas?
13:22:31 <elliott> ps does anyone speak spanish
13:22:43 <elliott> "often why high and low?" uh
13:30:20 <ais523> is spanish just a guess, or is it related to the IP somehow?
13:32:44 <elliott> ais523: as seen in my log link, the only thing they've ever said in #esoteric is "hola"
13:32:54 <elliott> also I googled their nick and they've been in some other channel on freenode in spanish
13:33:15 <elliott> i suspect google translate has not adequately conveyed my message
13:35:51 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that was one of my alter egos
13:35:58 <Taneb> (it wasn't one of my alter egos actually)
13:39:36 <Taneb> I thought it was the other way round
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13:58:21 <oerjan> <HackEgo> eliser224: hey what are you doing joining and parting all the time???? what's the deal <-- your speling is pathetic hth
14:03:52 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there are many things in programming named after spices, like currying
14:04:32 <Lumpio-> Actually currying comes from a guy's name
14:04:35 <Lumpio-> ...but the name probably comes from food
14:04:58 <oerjan> OH I'D NEVER HAVE GUESSED
14:05:10 <Taneb> The name has nothing to do with the food, actually
14:05:16 <Bike> the joke is starvation
14:05:20 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure curry's name ... what Taneb said
14:05:28 <oerjan> isn't it irish or something
14:06:00 <oerjan> on the flipside, haskell is hebrew. or maybe that's also irish by some remarkable coincidence.
14:06:25 <oerjan> brooks sounds disturbingly english. maybe it's really persian or something.
14:07:02 <Taneb> I'm trying to learn HTML Canvas.
14:07:17 <Taneb> I keep running an example and thinking, "ooh, isn't this pretty? wow"
14:07:22 <Taneb> And then getting distracted
14:07:57 <oerjan> "Brooks is a functional logic programming language which inherits from the languages Curry and BABEL but allows the integration of different narrowing strategies."
14:08:45 <oerjan> just need to unpack it
14:10:05 <oerjan> maybe i'll be able to compile lens without thrashing on the first attempt, now
14:10:55 <oerjan> probably not enough to compile ghc though; i don't want to ruin my dad either
14:15:40 <oerjan> the old man is rather kind, really
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16:19:40 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22751415 finland
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16:44:10 <drlemon> Also hello kmc but nostly headshot because he sent me here
16:46:02 <DHeadshot> Drlemon, well, you did say you Loved esolangs...
16:46:45 <HackEgo> DrLeMoN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
16:46:49 <drlemon> I've actually been here before. Just didn't have much to say considering I'm a total amateur at programming
16:47:22 <drlemon> I've been welcomed already last time.
16:47:35 <kmc> oerjan: what new laptop did you get
16:47:36 <oerjan> it's ok it was probably a different welcome
16:48:10 <drlemon> No, like 10 people welcomed me in different ways
16:48:34 <HackEgo> drlemon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:48:51 <zzo38> For some reason, the save game isn't working OK.
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16:53:27 <nooga> I wonder what are minimal CPU features that allow linux to run
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16:54:35 <nooga> assume that you have to design a simple CPU, then make a GCC backend targetting this machine, and then compile and boot linux kernel
16:55:02 <kmc> then i would design a CPU that already fits the MIPS ISA :)
16:55:21 <zzo38> nooga: I don't know.
16:55:40 <kmc> anyway I don't think there are many must-have features; Linux does run on systems without MMU these days
16:55:51 <kmc> "although functionality is then obviously somewhat limited"
16:55:56 <nooga> kmc: too simple, existing ISAs are banned from this excercise
16:56:08 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose using the same instruction set that Linux uses in something it is ported to, or the subset compatible with Linux, would be an easy way to do it without modifying Linux or GCC, although that isn't necessarily a minimal CPU features!
16:56:13 <kmc> then i would make some ISA which differs from MIPS in a boring way
16:56:25 <kmc> say by shuffling the bits of the instruction encoding
16:56:27 <kmc> i'll call it ips-may
16:56:31 <nooga> i would go with something ARMish
16:56:41 <zzo38> kmc: Or omitting the features that GCC/Linux doesn't use?
16:56:47 <kmc> zzo38: sure
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16:57:07 <kmc> ARM is a cool arch, but MIPS might be a bit simpler to implement
16:57:17 <kmc> depending also on which versions
16:57:32 <nooga> SPARCs are awesome
16:58:59 <nooga> but this is not minimal
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16:59:29 <kmc> i have implemented at gate level 6.004's "Beta" processor, which I guess is supposed to be like the Alpha but 32-bit
16:59:38 <kmc> it's a very simple RISC
16:59:51 <nooga> i was just wondering if there are some specific features that are strictly required to run GCC output, with linux as a representative example
16:59:53 <kmc> with very limited interrupt handling, and no MMU
17:02:13 <zzo38> I realized in this C program, I have both "VERSION" and "version" as two different things. (Since C is case-sensitive, this is OK.)
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17:06:53 <nooga> maybe I should ask on #kernel
17:07:05 <nooga> but I fear that they will eat me
17:07:54 <DHeadshot> Zzo38, It's when you have "Version", "vERSION" and "VeRsIoN" as well that you need to worry...
17:08:07 <zzo38> DHeadshot: Yes, that may be true.
17:08:36 <zzo38> As it turns out both version and VERSION are macros in my program; version is (*memory) and VERSION is "0.5".
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17:09:55 <FreeFull> zzo38: Why is version (*memory)
17:10:05 <zzo38> FreeFull: It is a Z-machine interpreter.
17:10:41 <zzo38> memory is an array of unsigned 8-bits.
17:11:54 <DHeadshot> As a DOS user, I prefer saw insensitive languages. However, I appear to be a dying breed...
17:12:45 <zzo38> Well, I use DOS as well as other things too.
17:13:17 <zzo38> I do program in BASIC as well as in C.
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17:14:59 <zzo38> DHeadshot: What programming languages do you use?
17:16:30 <DHeadshot> Assembly, pascal, basic, FORTRAN, etc; plus obviously esolangs like whirl and 3code (I know that last one's case sensitive)...
17:18:35 <zzo38> Assembly language of what computers? I have used x86 assembly and 6502 assembly.
17:19:06 <FreeFull> I have done x86 and ARM myself
17:19:36 <FreeFull> I don't think it would be difficult for me to pick up another one
17:19:53 <zzo38> O, and also Z-machine assembly.
17:20:11 <DHeadshot> I did a little RISC-style at uni but not for any particular CPU. I'd like to learn ARM though...
17:26:28 <nooga> ARM is for compilers ;p
17:26:52 <FreeFull> ARM isn't that bad to write manually
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17:28:55 <DHeadshot> ARM was DESIGNED to write manually - how would you compile for your expansion module with just 32kb of free memory?
17:29:07 <zzo38> O no! Two of my "C" position players are injured, and the remaining one is very susceptible to injury. Now, if they get injured too, I will be disqualified.
17:30:13 <DHeadshot> Zzo38, I thought you said you were writing IN C, not PLAYING it...?
17:30:59 <zzo38> DHeadshot: Yes, but now I am playing a different game.
17:34:11 <FreeFull> DHeadshot: x86 was designed to write manually at the start and look what happened
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17:35:42 <DHeadshot> I mean, not the machine-code, but the asm is...
17:36:30 <DHeadshot> The machine-code's a mess, but then so are most modern CISCs...
17:38:08 <zzo38> Yes, the modern x86 is pretty terrible, and so is the modern ARM, actually.
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17:39:15 <tromp> what's the cleanest 64bit risc design?
17:39:57 <DHeadshot> I'd assume MIPS, but I haven't seen Alpha...
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18:02:14 <olsner> some things still use MIPS, so it might not be as clean as it used to be ... I think Alpha is essentially dead so it should be cleaner
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18:19:46 <oerjan> weather: splitty with chance of trolling
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19:20:02 <kmc> x86 is a mess, but if you are writing assembly yourself, for a typical x86 operating system, you can ignore most of the complexity
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19:20:27 <kmc> if you are writing an OS or reading compiler output, it's a whole different story
19:20:43 <kmc> lol swapgs instruction
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19:22:09 <Bike> obviously they should make an x86 Lite
19:22:17 <kmc> amd64 is that, a little
19:23:36 <kmc> they took out some little-used features and added new, more useful ones
19:23:56 <kmc> of course by 'took out' I only mean in long mode; they still have a full implementation of the 16- and 32-bit x86 instruction sets as well
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19:25:25 <kmc> also some of the removed features would still be useful in specific circumstances :/
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19:28:08 <Bike> isn't that true of any removed feature
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19:31:43 <kmc> to varying extent, yeah
19:32:38 <kmc> what I have in mind specifically is that the vestigial support for segmentation in 64-bit mode is not really good enough to implement the kernel security features that some 32-bit OSes have
19:32:58 <kmc> (but not the common 32-bit OSes)
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20:00:01 <Bike> is there a function such that f' = f . f?
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20:01:27 <oerjan> um, i'm just asking if ' and . mean what i am guessing
20:01:45 <Bike> Taneb: yeah i thought of that, but another?
20:02:07 <kmc> \rainbow{differential equations}
20:02:13 <oerjan> hm polynomials can't work
20:02:35 <Bike> kmc: it's not a differential equation, it's a function equation B)
20:02:42 <kmc> because if f has degree n, f.f has degree 2n and f' has degree n-1?
20:03:01 <kmc> Bike: well f'(x) = f(f(x)) is a differential equation
20:03:04 <Taneb> Something Hyperbolic?
20:03:26 <Bike> kmc: I actually got this equation out of a book as an example of something that isn't a differential equation despite involving a function and its derivatives.
20:03:34 <Bike> Because it's not about a vector field.
20:03:51 <Bike> But it's interesting to think about.
20:04:12 <oerjan> sounds like an arbitrary restriction of the term
20:04:47 <Bike> it's not arbitrary.
20:05:08 <myname> Bike: if you get one, tell me :)
20:05:32 <Bike> taneb already named one.
20:05:41 <myname> well, a non trivial one
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20:09:42 <oerjan> hm how does the multivariable chain rule work with f(f(x))
20:10:15 <oerjan> it's just f'(f(x))*f'(x) i think
20:10:38 <oerjan> and it's not actually multi
20:12:21 <Taneb> Who was the chap who said that either there's extraterrestial life or there isn't and both possibilities are equally scary?
20:12:33 <oerjan> hm schwartzian transform has nothing to do with either schwartz functions or fourier transforms
20:14:09 <Bike> mathematicians: suck at naming things
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20:15:16 <oerjan> hm wait composition doesn't behave nicely with fourier or laplace transforms i think
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20:18:57 <oerjan> f(f(x)) tends to be "more complicated" than f'(x) in some sense, i think
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20:20:04 <oerjan> which i mean not as a strict rule but as an intuition you have to escape the validity of
20:21:37 <Bike> i dunno. what if f is, say, a half-iterate? D^1/2 is way more complicated than D in my mind
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20:37:39 <oerjan> hm f's behavior near x and near f(x) do not need to be related if f isn't particularly nice. which means it should be easy to find a solution which holds only in an interval.
20:39:11 <oerjan> f(x) = 2x near 1, say, and f(x) = 2 near 2.
20:40:24 <oerjan> it then satisfies the equation near 1.
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20:44:10 <oerjan> f''(x) = (f(f(x)))' = f'(f(x))*f'(x) = f(f(f(x)))*f(f(x))
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20:45:05 <oerjan> f''(x)/f'(x) = f(f(f(x)))
20:45:20 <oerjan> (ln f(x))' = f(f(f(x)))
20:45:37 <oerjan> * (ln f'(x))' = f(f(f(x)))
20:46:26 <Bike> how entirely comprehensible
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22:25:35 <kmc> "William III of England arrived at Brixham in England on 5 November 1688 after setting sail from the Netherlands on 11 November 1688"
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22:26:45 <Taneb> kmc, that was around when all the calendars were switching from Julian to Gregorian, iirc
22:26:48 <Bike> kings are amazing
22:26:53 <Taneb> England's was one of the last to switch
22:27:31 <Taneb> kmc, were you the chap who left #haskell and vowed never to return?
22:27:44 <kmc> i don't think i vowed never to return........................................
22:28:00 <kmc> i have various complaints and probably will not return unless some of them improve
22:28:03 <Taneb> Anyway, I am now beginning to think that that may have been a very good idea
22:28:06 <kmc> but some already have
22:28:09 <olsner> stuff like that would be funnier if we had no idea people were switching calendars
22:28:19 <kmc> yeah I know that you all know about calendars and such
22:28:22 <kmc> it's just amusing
22:28:56 <Taneb> There is someone who is insisting that we should endeavour to make Applicative instances as different as possible to Monad instances
22:29:03 <Taneb> So ap /= (<*>) et al.
22:29:26 <kmc> a lot of eastern europe, russia, asia didn't change until the 20th century
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22:30:01 <kmc> hence the october revolution starting on November 7 (N.S.)
22:30:16 <kmc> anyway goodnight taneb
22:30:16 <Taneb> I already said that
22:30:21 <Taneb> This time I meant it
22:30:25 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Anyway, goodnight).
22:30:31 <kmc> (any justification for making applicative very different from monad?)
22:31:04 <shachaf> I think people being wrong on things isn't the biggest problem with #haskell.
22:31:40 <kmc> what do you think are the biggest problems?
22:35:41 <Bike> why as different as possible
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22:43:34 <oerjan> `run e | sed '/lis/lies/'
22:43:35 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: extra characters after command
22:43:43 <oerjan> `run e | sed 's/lis/lies/'
22:43:44 <HackEgo> elieser224: ¿por qué con frecuencia altas y bajas?
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22:45:56 <HackEgo> elieser224: ¿por qué con frecuencia altas y bajas?
22:46:02 <Bike> what are you replacing....
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22:52:04 <elliott> did i make another typo in the naem lol
22:52:06 <HackEgo> elieser224: ¿por qué con frecuencia altas y bajas?
22:53:09 <elliott> oerjan: btw if you know spanish please make the message be right
22:53:55 <oerjan> material implication is so easy
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23:03:26 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:03:47 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!eliser*@*.
23:03:54 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:04:34 <elliott> oerjan: you may wish to reconsider that ban.
23:04:43 <elliott> in particular I'd recommend the addition of an e and a 22.
23:04:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:04:58 <shachaf> The 22 is not quite as necessary.
23:04:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!eliser*@*.
23:05:06 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!elisere22*@*.
23:05:11 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:05:19 <Koen_> I don't believe there is such a thing as a 'good' ban
23:05:24 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:05:27 <elliott> oerjan: you may wish to look at elieser2241's hostname again :P
23:05:35 <Koen_> apparently jsvine agrees with me
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23:08:28 <elliott> oerjan: (the e is after the eli, not the r. or is this intentional.)
23:09:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:09:14 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!elisere22*@*.
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23:10:17 <oerjan> the slippery slope has landed
23:17:57 <oerjan> `pastelogs oerjan> @check.*
23:18:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19489
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23:31:20 <Sgeo> Rebol reminds me of what I once expressed as a wish for how Lisp worked
23:32:57 <Sgeo> (if (< 0 1) '(print "Hello") '(print "Goodbye"))
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23:58:31 <Bike> we can't always get what we want
23:59:21 <oerjan> THAT'S JUST THE MAN KEEPING YOU DOWN
00:02:03 <elliott> I hear shachaf keeps the man's systems up
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00:23:40 <HackEgo> elieser224: ¿por qué con frecuencia altas y bajas?
00:24:48 <oerjan> is the ~ part of the actual pattern, i thought it was just a flag thing
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00:26:19 <oerjan> seems you cannot have * both before and after
00:26:20 <shachaf> You might want another * there.
00:27:03 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:27:40 <oerjan> i guess it's too much work to search inside a word
00:27:54 <shachaf> oerjan: What's with the NICE TRY business?
00:28:12 <oerjan> it's a very nice business
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00:39:42 <elliott> well that's the first time they haven't parted
00:39:58 <elliott> oerjan: what was missing was the ~ btw
00:41:49 <Sgeo> kmc, what would you think of a Lisp that did that?
00:42:08 <Sgeo> The (if (0 < 1) '(print "Hi") '(print "Bye")) thing, with if being a regular function
00:42:50 <Bike> it's "common" pedantically to have like (if (< 0 1) (lambda () (print "Hi")) (lambda () (print "Bye")))
00:43:11 <Bike> but uh isn't smalltalk like that
00:43:23 <Bike> i have used smalltalk never
00:43:49 <Sgeo> In Smalltalk you pass around blocks, but those are actual functions, you can't really check out the source of the block
00:44:08 <Sgeo> Your options are to evaluate (and possibly pass in arguments) or not
00:44:37 <Bike> and... you'd rather have source code?
00:44:52 <elliott> abstraction is the devil, Bike
00:45:11 <Sgeo> Sure, because it means no need for macros with a separate macroexpansion phase
00:45:18 <elliott> languages are meant to support cute metaprogramming hacks that are funny for 3 minutes because sgeo gets bored of languages before the total lack of meaningful semantics and uselessness and ripeness for abuse become relevant
00:45:33 <Bike> Sgeo: like... smalltalk's macroexpansion phase??
00:47:22 <Bike> I'm glad I quit programming to take up listening to numbers stations
00:47:24 <Sgeo> Smalltalk has no macros and nothing that particularly takes the place of macros niceny
00:47:36 <Bike> ok but what the fuck does that have to do with quotation though?
00:47:43 <Bike> and the... passy... thing
00:49:01 <Sgeo> You can have a function that does any transform or execution that it likes on code that it receives. And you can preprocess code before giving it to such a function
00:49:31 <Sgeo> And, with particular ways of thinking of symbols, you don't have to lose lexical scoping... I think
00:49:39 <Bike> exactly what i've never particularly needed as core semantics.
00:49:41 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy-zVlB4mvA
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01:11:29 <Sgeo> Just bought a prgmr ... thing
01:11:57 <Sgeo> Well, started yesterday, paid today
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01:33:07 <kmc> are you ircing from it
01:33:48 <kmc> Sgeo: a Lisp that does that is very much like Kernel
01:34:02 <kmc> and so I would say at minimum that when you define 'if' you need a way to bind the caller's lexical environment
01:35:35 <kmc> `addquote <Bike> I'm glad I quit programming to take up listening to numbers stations
01:35:39 <HackEgo> 1047) <Bike> I'm glad I quit programming to take up listening to numbers stations
01:36:02 <Bike> well. if if is just a normal function, and you're passing it quoted code blocks, the lexical environment you want those blocks executed in probably isn't just whoever's calling if.
01:36:14 <Bike> if only there was some way to attach a lexical environment to a block of code.
01:36:23 <kmc> Bike: are you familiar with how Kernel works?
01:36:48 <Sgeo> I'm having some trouble thinking of whether the model I have in mind is in fact sufficient
01:36:50 <kmc> so don't you think that in this case, 'if' will want to eval one of those two bits of code, in the caller's lexical environment?
01:36:58 <Bike> the caller of if?
01:37:21 <kmc> yeah, the environment that would be captured there if it were a lambda
01:37:38 <kmc> the same env that's captured in your example with (lambda () ...)
01:37:50 <kmc> that's what Kernel provides to an operative
01:37:56 <Bike> what i mean is, sgeo's emphasis is on the arguments, i think whoever constructed the /arguments/ would want to control the caller there
01:38:38 <Bike> control the environment, ugh headache sorry
01:38:54 <Sgeo> ...I have a mental model for scoping, but that mental model doesn't actually match what Rebol does, so I may end up short-changing Rebol
01:39:15 <kmc> blub blub blub
01:39:59 <Bike> ok anyway: how do smalltalk blocks work again? it's like [ ...variables... | ...statements with ...variables... free... ] right? and do you call it with named arguments or what
01:40:10 <Sgeo> Ok, I'll just describe my mental model, which Rebol can be coerced into, and we'll see what happens
01:41:45 <Sgeo> Each symbol has an environment attached to it. A function that takes in a block can swap a symbol's environment for something else and/or modify it etc. So the caller of if can impose an environment over every symbol that it sees. Things inside that block, say, inside the if, when executed, can themselves impose a different environment on each word before evaling what they see
01:42:40 <Bike> "word" and "symbol" are the same?
01:43:50 <Sgeo> Yes. Well, Rebol calls them words, I wanted to call them symbols because we're going with the Lisp analogy
01:45:31 <Bike> so would like, (eval symbol) look up the value of symbol in its environment, and return that value
01:47:35 <Bike> the values totally exist in the environments, then, it's just delayed evaluation
01:48:36 <Sgeo> Let me take a Rebol example and translate it into a Lispy syntax
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01:49:04 <kmc> shachaf: https://www.quora.com/East-Palo-Alto-CA/What-good-pizza-places-deliver-to-East-Palo-Alto?srid=Q1&share=1
01:49:36 <kmc> i could spend 390 Quora Bux to ask Charlie Cheever where to buy pizza in East Palo Alto
01:49:41 <kmc> truly the sharing economy is upon us
01:49:59 <elliott> does this question have no answer
01:51:30 <elliott> Palo Alto, CA: Why has East Palo Alto not produced world famous rappers?
01:51:50 <Bike> dj dotcom bubble
01:52:11 <elliott> so the idea of quora is to make me kill myself by telling me to log in constantly right
01:52:15 <elliott> it's like fucking expert's exchange
01:52:20 <kmc> you in particular
01:52:30 <elliott> i guess it's experts plural not 's
01:52:33 <elliott> possessive? that's the one
01:53:02 <elliott> How much of the conversations about East Palo Alto being "safe" just perceived or masked racism?
01:53:12 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/8007464
01:53:27 <elliott> haha there are a lot of questions about whethery ou're going to get murdered in east palo alto here
01:53:43 <Bike> alright sure what's use
01:54:02 <Sgeo> Here, use scans for the symbols in the first list and sets all such symbols to their own scope. A bit like let I guess. (print xs) evals each thing in the list and prints
01:54:12 <Bike> to their own... scope?
01:54:20 <Sgeo> So it would print (12 9 "RELISP")
01:54:28 <Sgeo> As in, a new environment created by that use
01:54:33 <elliott> The upshot seems to be that you are still more likely to get shot in EPA than elsewhere
01:54:42 <elliott> i remember in hexham once someone got shot
01:54:42 <Sgeo> So each of those three x's are different
01:54:55 <shachaf> kmc: is quora bux a thing.............
01:54:57 <Sgeo> But each xs, since not rebound by use, refers to that global xs
01:54:59 <Bike> why is it (append xs 'x) and not (append 'xs 'x) or (append xs x)
01:55:11 <kmc> i have a friend who is moving to EPA and he claims it's fine other than terrible schools
01:55:17 <Bike> also i don't want to think about parsing this.
01:55:33 <Sgeo> It's not (append xs x) because you're not putting each value into xs, but the symbol 'x
01:55:34 <elliott> kmc: uh it has no world class rappers
01:55:37 <kmc> and he's not planning to have kids, and he's gay so it won't just happen by accident
01:55:44 <kmc> he told me gay people are a gentrifying force for this reason
01:55:45 <Sgeo> So xs contains three symbols, each is x, but each has a different environment
01:56:13 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have said append!, since append! mutates its first argument
01:56:22 <elliott> so many fucking questions about whether east palo alto is dangerous
01:56:26 <kmc> the thing in america where schools are funded by local property taxes produces tremendous inequality
01:56:28 <elliott> Do I have to worry about my car being stolen in East Palo Alto?
01:56:41 <Bike> so what advantage is there over, say, (set! xs (list (delay 12) (delay 9) (delay "MOTHER FUCK OF")))
01:56:41 <kmc> but then they tried to fix that in CA and the result was that rich people voted to never pay more property taxes ever
01:56:48 <Sgeo> Although come to think of it
01:57:00 <Sgeo> It should have been (set! 'x 12) etc
01:57:03 <Bike> kmc: hey i got a funny story about that!
01:57:03 <Sgeo> Not (set! x 12)
01:57:22 <kmc> elliott: "Anonymous: very [Qualifications: I am a car thief in East Palo Alto]"
01:57:44 <Bike> i live in a rural area and everybody hates taxes and there was a vote to raise property taxes in a levy
01:57:56 <Bike> and if it didn't pass, the district wouldn't have enough money to continue existing, and would dissolve!
01:58:06 <Bike> in which case, apparently, the state swoops down and redistricts everything
01:58:24 <Bike> which would put everybody in nearby districts with higher taxes than the levy would raise them to!
01:58:40 <Bike> basically what i'm saying is that i fucking hate where i live help
01:58:48 <kmc> so did it pass in the end
01:59:06 <Bike> yeah it actually did
01:59:11 <kmc> makes sense
01:59:13 <Bike> the latest one failed though, so there's been huge layoffs
01:59:25 <kmc> they voted to have the worst possible schools that wouldn't be shut down by the state
01:59:53 <Bike> when i told this to coworkers they didn't believe me, because that would be too fucking stupid. well, here we are, coworkers
02:00:22 <kmc> hm i want to put this down to 'collective action is hard' but i think there's no individual incentive to defect, either
02:00:23 <shachaf> Bike: imo move to california hth
02:00:47 <Bike> Can't they not raise taxes in Cali without a supermajority
02:01:58 <Bike> also my parents grew up there and they told me about "smog days" so now i kind of slightly consider it Mordor even though that's dumb & also wrong.
02:02:42 <elliott> can confirm that california is mordor
02:03:04 <elliott> if the smog doesn't convince you consider the gigantic fiery eye that watches over it all, that's kind of a give-away
02:03:18 <Bike> plus california somehow has like a trillion more disasters even though i can see like three active volcanos from my house??
02:03:34 <elliott> well in california they don't see the volcanoes
02:04:00 <kmc> Bike: I think smog is a problem in LA area but not nearly so much in northern CA
02:04:04 <Bike> i actually live within walking distance of a caldera and i'm pretty sure i'm safer than i'd be in california
02:04:07 <kmc> in SF they just have fog with an f
02:04:12 <kmc> which is better because it doesn't attack your lungs
02:04:17 <Bike> kmc: yeah it's not as bad in the south as it was when they were kids anyway
02:04:27 <kmc> CA got serious about emissions standards
02:04:33 <kmc> which helped the whole country
02:04:34 <elliott> New York City: What are the best places in NY for an existentialist solo traveller to go?
02:04:39 <elliott> what the fuck makes a solo traveller "existentialist"
02:04:46 <kmc> being pretentious as fuck
02:04:48 <Bike> they're a clone of sartre
02:04:57 <elliott> "i can highly recommend this place for solo travellers, but ONLY IF THEY'rE EXISTENTIALISTS"
02:05:13 <elliott> it has 1 answer: "A long night walk through the Bronx can be a challenge to your existence."
02:05:13 <pikhq> "The Existential Crisis"?
02:05:19 * Bike imagines Quora reviews of locales from Kafka stories
02:05:34 <Bike> "lawkeeper wouldn't let me in, zero stars"
02:05:45 <elliott> kmc: i keep forgetting that LA is in californi
02:05:52 <elliott> i keep forgetting that LA is even in this universe
02:06:05 <Bike> common mistake
02:06:37 <elliott> Jesus: Why was Jesus crucified?
02:07:04 <Bike> answer: [entire quoted text of summa theologica]
02:07:43 <elliott> its because they wanted him to not be alive any more
02:08:48 <Bike> about sums it up, you gotta admit
02:09:46 <elliott> they wanted him to not be alive because they didnt like jesus
02:10:21 <elliott> wow the summa theologica is three thousand pages
02:10:46 <kmc> "wrong place, wrong time"
02:11:09 <Bike> it's "summa" for a reason, man!
02:11:25 <elliott> "summa theologica" as in "summa dat theologica"
02:11:53 <Bike> yo pass me the theologica bro i got a good feeling about this drag
02:14:13 <pikhq> That theologica is some good shit.
02:14:26 <pikhq> I be seein' da holy ghost
02:17:06 <kmc> itym i and i
02:18:02 <shachaf> kmc: are you back in bosstown
02:18:28 <kmc> no, long layover at ORD
02:21:27 <kmc> not very far out of the way, though: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SJC-ORD-BOS,SJC-BOS
02:39:06 <shachaf> elliott: should i become a world famous rapper
02:39:25 <shachaf> oerjan: [[andor]] is still not fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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02:42:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what are you doing joining here at 3:40
02:43:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a brief respite from exams so fuck sleeping at reasonable hours
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02:43:34 <Bike> hey kmc i need "drug opinions".
02:43:37 <Bike> "Rehab is such a fucking joke I can't even mention it without the disclaimer that it's really not going to work at all. I know it's probably a shitty thing to say since for many people it is a last resort before death, but if anything will drive you to drug use it is rehab. Try to take a bunch of LSD or something, shit, just get off the damn heroin."
02:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> actually don't fuck sleeping at reasonable hours because i still feel guilty for being up at dawn
02:43:52 <Bike> good thing to say to a heroin addict y/n
02:44:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the great thing about i was going to go to bed early is, it's fucking light outside already
02:44:19 <elliott> it wasn't even fully dark at 10 pm
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02:45:55 <shachaf> elliott: move to san francisco hth
02:46:06 <Bike> "where it's always dark"?
02:46:41 <shachaf> where it's always the place to be
02:46:58 <kmc> Bike: not qualified to say, hth
02:47:05 <elliott> kmc: get addicted to heroin
02:47:55 <ion> #haskell-heroinaddicts
02:48:01 <kmc> silly heroin addicts, always taking that heroin
02:48:16 <kmc> shit, just get off the damn heroin, hth
02:48:17 <shachaf> i'm not addicted to heroin anymore, but i'm addicted to being addicted to heroin. so i'm having p. bad withdrawal right now
02:48:37 <ion> I’m addicted to shachaf’s heroin addiction.
02:48:54 <shachaf> ion: itym #cslounge-trainspotting hth
02:49:27 <ion> I mean #erlang-requiemforadream
02:50:22 <Bike> a monad darkly
02:51:38 <Bike> actually, a lens darkly, huh.
02:53:09 <kmc> 420 smoke substance d every day
02:53:31 * kmc → plane, again
02:53:39 <Bike> splits your mind in two so you can blaze it twice as hard
02:53:45 <ion> snake → plane
03:05:44 <Sgeo> The Clojure/West Racket video doesn't come out until September :(
03:06:03 <kmc> is that a rap music video
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04:32:49 <Sgeo> I briefly forgot how to imperative
04:43:56 <myname> easy, always think about it like the whole program is a monad
04:44:38 <shachaf> I think the word "monad" should be banned.
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04:48:25 <Sgeo> ...There's a proposal to add single-dispatch generic functions to Python
04:48:33 <Sgeo> Isn't that pretty much the point of OO?
04:48:35 <kmc> the way you just used it is nonsense myname
04:49:36 <kmc> that is one reason
04:49:39 <Sgeo> Although splitting out a separate 'generic function' mechanism allows said functions to be sanely namespaced
04:49:50 <Sgeo> I wish OO languages namespaced their method names
04:50:25 <kmc> how do you mean
04:51:05 <Sgeo> foo.bar() if two modules have different meanings of .bar, and wanted to extend object to have .bar(), there's a conflict in most languages where that is possible
04:51:35 <Sgeo> But if you do similar bar(foo) where bar is a generic function, no issue, because different bars from each module.
04:51:49 <kmc> you're talking about, like, mixins?
04:51:50 <Sgeo> So why not have in foo.bar() syntax the bar be namespaced
04:52:10 <kmc> afk again, sorry
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05:15:07 <ehaliewicz> i feel like writing a compiler for a small esoteric language
05:23:41 <ehaliewicz> i should have figured you guys wouldn't make it easy
05:24:36 <Bike> is this the fuck
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05:50:34 <kmc> ehaliewicz: well Brainfuck was designed primarily to admit very simple compilers
05:50:58 <kmc> in fact I don't think it was explicitly designed to be unusual or difficult to program in, so it might not count as a true esolang
05:51:16 <Bike> that was a quick plane ride
05:51:41 <kmc> it was more of a car ride
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05:54:43 <myname> epicmonkey: how about befunge?
05:54:52 <Bike> did you drive for two hours to the airport
05:55:04 <Bike> they left, myname
05:57:33 <Bike> they'll fungepile another day
05:59:08 <Bike> hm, what's a story.
06:01:01 <Bike> One day God made an infinite number of worlds, each with an infinite number of people who were all infinitely happy. They all lived happily for infinite time.
06:01:04 <Bike> Not a ery good story.
06:01:42 <shachaf> but infinity is too hard for me
06:02:11 <shachaf> can you try 3↑↑↑↑↑3 instead
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06:03:41 <Bike> Once upon a time, technology among people advanced to the point where they could form and dissolve social connections among each other with just a thought.
06:04:12 <Bike> Lots and lots of friendships dissolved and formed throughout the throngs of humanity every millisecond. There were so many people and so much talking that nobody would be able to keep track of it.
06:05:42 <Bike> People tried, though. They used visualization software that drew negative relationships like hatred or alimony as red, and positive relationships like love or appreciation as blue.
06:06:36 <Bike> But before finding a group that was entirely filled with mutual hate or mutual love, I got bored and found it in porn intead. The end.
06:09:38 <myname> you found mutual hate in porn?
06:10:59 <Bike> more likely than love in porn
06:14:31 <myname> well, on professional porn at least
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06:49:59 <Jafet> Bike: starting your story with a deus ex machina is usually considered in poor form
06:50:41 <Bike> are you arguing with the genius of euripides
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07:05:03 <Jafet> There once was a guy called Euripides, who wrote some pretty tragic stories. People tried to get him to write happier stories, but he would not change no matter what they did. Finally, a god descended from the rigging and put happy endings in his stories. The end.
07:33:58 <Jafet> kmc: There once was a guy called Euripides who wrote many watery tragedies. His style, he defended, until god descended and forced him to write divine remedies.
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09:20:03 <olsner> how do people just pop out limericks like that? I seem to be lacking that skill
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09:24:03 <Taneb> There was a chap from Scandinavia/Who didn't have any poetic behaviour/So online he complained/And helpfulness reigned/Taneb became his limerick saviour
09:25:39 <FreeFull> There should be an esoteric language where the only valid code is limericks
09:25:43 <FreeFull> Anything else is a compiler error
09:25:55 <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use in my prose / Multiocular 'O's / But my poems are alphanumeric."
09:27:09 <olsner> shachaf wins this round
09:27:26 <olsner> unless multiocular o has appeared in limericks before, that might change things
09:28:16 <olsner> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use in my prose / ꙮ's / But my poems are alphanumeric."
09:29:38 <shachaf> There should be a game where you tell us things to write limericks about and we write them!
09:29:44 <shachaf> And they have to be really bad.
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09:30:33 <olsner> maybe someone already did that and called it #esoteric?
09:30:44 <shachaf> Perhaps life is one big limerick.
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09:30:54 <shachaf> easy, always thing about it like the whole program is a limerick
09:35:19 <olsner> a limerick esolang can't be a new idea... has really no-one already done it?
09:41:37 <shachaf> MULTIÖCULAR O is my secret weapon.
09:43:43 <shachaf> Have you ever read Lear's limericks?
09:44:27 <shachaf> I am not quite sure how to enjoy them
09:46:36 <olsner> perhaps you could enjoy them multiocularly?
09:47:39 <olsner> no, two is not multi enough
09:48:34 <shachaf> I'm afraid that I am inoculated.
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13:06:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i have no idea where this [[andor]] you are referring to is
13:07:06 <oerjan> wikipedia has And/or, and wiktionary refers to the swedish word
13:07:10 <Taneb> oerjan, It's got a forast moon
13:07:43 <Taneb> The Forast Moon of Andor
13:08:09 <oerjan> however, clearly metasepia should use ~andor for its swedish searches
13:08:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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13:08:38 -!- oerjan has kicked Taneb There has to be limits.
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13:09:40 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
13:09:44 <elliott> oerjan: you should op me!!
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13:09:56 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
13:10:11 <oerjan> why is metasepia here when boily isn't
13:10:38 <oerjan> good, then you can get working on implementing the swedish search hth
13:11:26 <boily> when I'll get unsick again. yesterday I was spontaneously losing weight, and today I have low blood pressure.
13:11:58 <oerjan> i guess weight loss that you notice in a single day is rather serious.
13:12:05 <boily> you'll have to come to... Canada ♪ (with a scare chord)
13:12:20 <boily> oerjan: nothing that I couldn't unstomach.
13:12:23 <Taneb> If I lost weight, I'd...
13:12:28 <Taneb> be in serious trouble
13:12:49 <oerjan> thin as a stick, that's Taneb
13:13:01 <boily> what the stupid dammit aaaaargh!
13:13:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eval: not found
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13:13:50 <oerjan> `run ghc -e '60 * 2.2'
13:14:39 <boily> (meanwhile, the reason that cephalopod isn't coöperative: mueval-core: /usr/lib/ghc-7.6.2/settings: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory))
13:14:52 <metasepia> Error (1): Could not find module `Math.Gamma'
13:14:52 <metasepia> Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
13:15:08 <metasepia> Error (1): Could not find module `Data.Numbers.Primes'
13:15:08 <metasepia> Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
13:15:16 <metasepia> Error (1): Could not find module `Crypto.PBKDF2'
13:15:16 <metasepia> Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
13:15:35 <oerjan> <boily> you'll have to come to... Canada ♪ (with a scare chord) <-- i am not sure that singing canada with a scare chord is possible hth
13:17:23 <oerjan> oh wait chords are for instruments
13:17:56 <boily> on of our best humorists demonstrated that in fact, you can't lest you break your instrument.
13:18:13 <boily> in a sketch that involved zombies and a cellist in a closet.
13:18:42 <oerjan> this is clearly important information
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13:21:05 <Taneb> ~eval "hello" & ix 3 .~ 'z'
13:21:16 <Taneb> ~eval "hello" & ix 3 .~ 'z'
13:22:02 <boily> oerjan: black magic.
13:22:24 <oerjan> also fix that Error (1): stuff hth
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13:33:31 <boily> oerjan: I just remembered, I have a github repo for that aquatic creature. https://github.com/pfcuttle/metasepia
13:33:54 <boily> for any complaint, suggestion and other disagreements, you can issue.
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13:34:57 <oerjan> github, killing complaints since 20something
13:35:20 <oerjan> lambdabot: you are slow hth
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13:40:49 <FreeFull> boily: I wish it had the actual source code
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13:44:55 <Taneb> FreeFull, feles es?
13:44:55 <boily> FreeFull: I need to rewrite everything. I can send you the original archive if you'd like to have a peek.
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13:45:51 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: data constructor `Phantom__Hoover'
13:46:06 <FreeFull> ~eval data P = Phantom__Hoover
13:46:06 <metasepia> Error (1): <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `data'
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13:47:09 <boily> that really shouldn't have worked. I'm disturbed here.
13:47:33 <boily> oh, nothing bad. he just splitted.
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13:51:27 <FreeFull> I really wish I could filter the output of :browse somehow
13:52:07 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 a0))
13:52:07 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M66788873...
13:52:16 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO a0))
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13:56:05 <oerjan> one squid down, millions to go
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14:19:12 <boily> FreeFull: just a moment, rebooting the calamari...
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14:19:51 <metasepia> Error (1): No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 a0))
14:19:51 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M2019754395415980596.show_M2019754395415980596'
14:19:51 <metasepia> The type variables `m0', `a0' are ambiguous
14:19:51 <metasepia> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
14:19:51 <metasepia> Note: there are several potential instances:
14:19:51 <metasepia> instance (GHC.Real.Integral a, GHC.Show.Show a) =>
14:19:52 <metasepia> instance (GHC.Show.Show a, GHC.Show.Show b) => GHC.Show.Show (a, b)
14:19:53 <metasepia> instance (GHC.Show.Show a, GHC.Show.Show b, GHC.Show.Show c) =>
14:20:03 <boily> you didn't see nothing.
14:20:07 <FreeFull> You should probably cull the output
14:20:21 <metasepia> Error (1): No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO a0))
14:20:22 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M2146710962901742287.show_M2146710962901742287'
14:20:22 <metasepia> add an instance declaration for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO a0))
14:20:25 <boily> I think that's the most pressing urging important issue right now.
14:20:33 <boily> and no, no IO, you vile hacker that you are.
14:20:50 <metasepia> Error (1): Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num
14:20:50 <metasepia> (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> t))
14:20:50 <metasepia> arising from the ambiguity check for `e_1123'
14:20:50 <metasepia> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a1 -> t),
14:20:51 <metasepia> bound by the inferred type for `e_1123':
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14:20:52 <metasepia> (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a1 -> t), GHC.Num.Num a, GHC.Num.Num a1) => t
14:20:54 <metasepia> (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> t))No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
14:20:55 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M3112136935042015385.show_M3112136935042015385'
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14:48:56 <boily> we'll never see the bottom of that soon, I fear...
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14:53:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
14:53:56 <oerjan> `learn ⊥ is a bottom tack, useful for annoying teachers.
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14:58:13 <boily> btw, any news on the II?
14:59:02 <boily> Infamous Interview.
14:59:20 <HackEgo> 2013-05-30 22:48:16: <cpressey> `learn /quit
14:59:39 <HackEgo> 2013-05-29 20:57:30: <jsvine> Bye for now.
14:59:58 <jsvine> I've just been tied up with a couple other stories.
15:00:03 <Taneb> He has been summoned!
15:00:06 <jsvine> But my interest in esolangs remains!
15:01:10 <boily> by the ancient art of cephalopodomancy, I brought forth The Journalist!
15:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> is this some kind of jon ronson affair where you hang out and try not to be confrontational so you can get a goldmine of weirdness for the public to point and laugh at
15:03:36 <jsvine> Not intentionally, at least.
15:04:23 <metasepia> Your divination: "Treading" to "Arguing"
15:04:28 <oerjan> eek, i just edited [[Jesus]]...
15:04:58 <metasepia> Jon Ronson is a British journalist, documentary filmmaker, radio presenter and nonfiction author, whose works include The Men Who Stare at Goats.
15:05:30 <boily> if I'm being stared at, I think I'm not a goat.
15:06:04 <elliott> oerjan: you tempt me to start inserting "Issac Newton" in random Wikipedia pages
15:06:45 <Taneb> "The Twenty-first Amendment (Amendment XXI) to the United Issac Newton States Constitution repealed the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution"
15:07:12 <elliott> oerjan: i like how you left the "newton" lowercase in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline_of_scientific_experiments&diff=prev&oldid=557022110
15:08:21 <oerjan> i knew editing Jesus was bad luck, now hexhammers are stalking me
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15:12:57 <oerjan> Taneb: i suspect that might backfire hth
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15:13:35 <Taneb> I'm sure I don't know what you are talking about
15:17:27 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/mar/25/weekend.jonronson (i apologise to jsvine for earlier taking out my ronsonmania on him)
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15:22:58 <oerjan> i guess today's xkcd was inevitable.
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15:25:50 <nooodl> oerjan: i don't get it :(
15:26:15 <Taneb> It's a reference to the Abbot and Costello sketch "Who's on first"
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15:27:12 <Taneb> And also Doctor Who
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17:20:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: that just means this is the wrong side
17:20:46 <oerjan> but the logbots are here
17:22:39 <oerjan> maybe fungot will use the opportunity to reach the singularity.
17:24:00 <oerjan> next up: achieving sentience through botlops
17:25:20 <oerjan> yesterday pressing the random button got me to http://www.reddit.com/r/dogswitheyebrows
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17:29:47 <boily> `run echo is the backquote bot still alive?
17:29:49 <HackEgo> is the backquote bot still alive?
17:30:53 <boily> `learn botlops are the core of botsentiences. Sapience is scheduled for the next release.
17:31:05 <oerjan> `learn ` is the prefix to greatness.
17:31:14 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
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17:31:28 <boily> ~ is better than `.
17:31:28 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
17:31:37 <oerjan> boily: um are you preserving my typo on purpose
17:31:48 <boily> oerjan: which one? :p
17:32:54 * oerjan recalls the hings of #initgame of yore
17:33:16 <lambdabot> *** "yore" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
17:34:15 <metasepia> yore definition: time past and especially long past usually used in the phrase of yore.
17:36:10 <HackEgo> Thanks, Tchaikovsky. Thaikovsky.
17:36:36 <HackEgo> Thanks, Mgrvgrvladje. Thadje.
17:37:17 <oerjan> boily: be sure to make it just two syllables hth
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17:38:18 <elliott> msg nickserv identify bikeluvr2013
17:39:32 <boily> anyone of you tried playing DDEE? I seem to have trouble surviving, which is quite contrary to the Goal of the Character Build.
17:39:58 <elliott> boily: you totally fuck up my #esoteric vs. ##crawl senses on a regular basis
17:40:02 <elliott> especially given that they are adjacent in irssi
17:40:51 <nooodl> boily: use my 14 runer guide
17:41:00 * boily whistles innocently ♪
17:41:08 <boily> nooodl: ah? you have one?
17:41:16 <nooodl> 1. play crawl 2. dont do tomb 3. win
17:41:23 <nooodl> v. effective "ask elliott"
17:41:24 <elliott> unfortunately henzell isnt here so i have to paste this manually
17:41:25 <elliott> 18:41:09 <elliott> ??dd guide
17:41:25 <elliott> 18:41:10 <Henzell> dd guide[1/1]: Worship Makhleb. Use the wand of heal wounds to heal. If it runs out of charges, recharge it.
17:41:54 <nooodl> anyway this advice sounds really stupid but
17:42:21 <nooodl> try not to get hit?? like be careful about losing any hp at all early on
17:42:24 <boily> but I like tomb. that sense of complete, utterless feeling of mediocrity, of impending doom... it is invigorating!
17:42:56 <boily> nooodl: I think that's it. I used to play DDNe some time ago, and when you hit vampiric draining, everything goes smooth afterwards.
17:43:04 <oerjan> there's something nasty in this game, but i cannot quite put my tomb on it
17:43:23 <nooodl> yeah, here it's like that except "when you start gaining hp from makhleb"
17:45:06 <elliott> i also suggest not playing dd because it's no fun
17:46:46 <boily> I had my SpEn victory from 2011, I did a MiFi two weeks ago, and now I want to achieve something different.
17:47:20 <boily> I tried skald. I died. then I deceased. then I not lived. then I died again, but more painfully.
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18:03:53 <nooga_> I can't even ascend in (Un)Brogue
18:04:18 <nooga_> I'm afraid to try other, more complex roguelikes
18:04:35 <elliott> brogue is better than crawl tbh
18:17:58 <olsner> oh, and speaking of limericks, http://i.imgur.com/4J7Il0m.jpg
18:18:44 <olsner> <boily> ~eval "tamhöna" <-- that means something like domesticated hen, hth
18:19:50 <olsner> (chicken is "kyckling" and no-one bothers asking where they come from)
18:20:12 <boily> olsner: that's what Wiki says, and verily the Word of Wiki is the Truth.
18:20:26 <oerjan> olsner: you could read a few lines up in the log hth
18:20:29 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andor , which says "logical conjunctio", hth
18:22:49 <olsner> oerjan: not presently helping, hth
18:23:19 <olsner> there was a line about kyckling just above the one about tamhöna, but that doesn't imply boily knows anything
18:25:25 <boily> but, but... tamhöna has a superb diæresis...
18:27:06 <olsner> half the rest of the words in swedish do as well and no-one even cares :P
18:36:28 <oerjan> boily: i don't think it's a "diæresis" if it isn't used to split a diphthong into vowels, then it's an umlaut instead hth
18:37:16 <boily> oerjan: goöd point.
18:40:54 <oerjan> shachaf: there is no missing n at the end of "conjunction" hth
18:41:24 <oerjan> there's a problem of terminology though...
18:41:59 <shachaf> oerjan: the missing n was my fault hth
18:42:09 <shachaf> but the word conjunction was not hth
18:42:31 <shachaf> kmc: did you see the limerick from earlier
18:43:06 <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poems are alphanumeric."
18:43:36 <shachaf> i don't know about grammar
18:43:40 <kmc> that's wonderful
18:43:56 <kmc> that's so good
18:44:17 <kmc> although I must point out that ꙮ is indeed a Letter, Other character
18:46:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> i don't know about grammar <-- ok perhaps it's good you don't edit wikipedia then.
18:46:31 <shachaf> oerjan: see, it's selfless
18:46:50 <ion> > reverse "selfless"
18:47:14 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
18:47:19 <ion> > permutations "selfless"
18:47:20 <lambdabot> ["selfless","eslfless","lesfless","elsfless","lsefless","slefless","flesles...
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18:49:32 <shachaf> wow wikipedia is full of evil prescriptivists
18:49:44 <shachaf> imo only good prescriptivists should be allowed
18:50:22 <oerjan> you should never end a sentence a preposition with
18:51:00 <oerjan> to endeavor never an infinitive split
18:51:06 <olsner> the prepositions, up in which, your sentences never shall end
18:51:06 <hagb4rd> use postposition for that issue
18:51:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo $1 | sed 's/^[^aeiou]*\(.*\)/Thanks, \0. Th\1./'
18:51:37 <olsner> (all of them, they are)
18:52:34 <nooodl> i'm gonna IMPROVe it hold on
18:52:36 <shachaf> nooodl: plz sed -i 's/\$1/"$@"/' bin/thanks # hth
18:53:09 <nooodl> its gonna be even better
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18:58:35 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
19:00:05 <olsner> -mno-key ... I wonder what that does, if anything
19:03:06 <oerjan> it plays a song _very_ badly hth
19:03:59 <shachaf> perhaps it is a forbidden note hth
19:04:00 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLy-AwdCOmI Like this.
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19:07:25 <nooodl> `fetch http://bpaste.net/raw/uYWFUgW0diLjGj2EYiKV/
19:07:28 <HackEgo> 2013-06-05 19:07:27 URL:http://bpaste.net/raw/uYWFUgW0diLjGj2EYiKV/ [133/133] -> "index.html" [1]
19:07:32 <nooodl> `mv index.html bin/thanks
19:07:34 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `index.html bin/thanks' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
19:07:45 <nooodl> `run mv index.html bin/thanks
19:07:50 <nooodl> `run chmod +x bin/thanks
19:08:18 <HackEgo> Thanks, pilent \ . Thilent \ .
19:08:25 <oerjan> `thanks Purple people eater
19:08:26 <HackEgo> Thanks, strek \ . Thek \ .
19:08:27 <HackEgo> Thanks, Purple people eater. Thurple people eater.
19:09:41 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/words`/words`.chomp/' bin/thanks
19:09:53 <HackEgo> Thanks, brotoh \ 0. Thotoh \ 0.
19:10:00 <Bike> I like it this way.
19:10:13 <Bike> Where is it even getting those
19:10:19 <elliott> Thanks, brotoh \ 0. Thotoh \ 0.
19:10:21 <oerjan> elliott: a sign of the crapocalypse
19:10:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/words
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19:12:23 <kmc> `paste bin/thanks
19:12:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/thanks
19:13:14 <kmc> are these actual words or markov thingies
19:13:31 <Bike> markov, i'm pretty certain
19:13:48 <Bike> clever, hackego
19:14:29 <nooodl> `run for i in {1..10}; do words; done
19:14:50 <HackEgo> koj \ incir \ manlzeil \ cial \ sda \ eynotique \ hirto \ dualuminue \ perfule \ truko
19:14:54 <kmc> how does `words`.chomp work in perl
19:15:04 <kmc> thought . was concat operator................
19:16:00 <nooodl> `fetch http://bpaste.net/raw/cvYcEn3Sfi9wZ4cOjCIi/
19:16:03 <HackEgo> 2013-06-05 19:16:02 URL:http://bpaste.net/raw/cvYcEn3Sfi9wZ4cOjCIi/ [139/139] -> "index.html" [1]
19:16:06 <nooodl> `run mv index.html bin/thanks
19:16:10 <nooodl> `run chmod +x bin/thanks
19:16:16 <HackEgo> Can't modify quoted execution (``, qx) in chomp at /hackenv/bin/thanks line 2, near "`words`;" \ Execution of /hackenv/bin/thanks aborted due to compilation errors.
19:16:23 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = $ARGV[0] || chomp `words`; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouy]/) { s/^[^aeiouy]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
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19:17:09 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/ `words`/(`words`)/' bin/thanks
19:17:19 <HackEgo> Can't modify quoted execution (``, qx) in chomp at /hackenv/bin/thanks line 2, near "`words`)" \ Execution of /hackenv/bin/thanks aborted due to compilation errors.
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19:19:41 <nooodl> `fetch http://bpaste.net/raw/ozchapci5TyVmaI8l97S/
19:19:43 <nooodl> `run mv index.html bin/thanks
19:19:43 <HackEgo> 2013-06-05 19:19:42 URL:http://bpaste.net/raw/ozchapci5TyVmaI8l97S/ [149/149] -> "index.html" [1]
19:19:45 <nooodl> `run chmod +x bin/thanks
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19:20:15 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
19:20:26 <boily> thackego. sounds good :D
19:21:37 <HackEgo> Thanks, shipermy. Thipermy.
19:21:37 <HackEgo> Thanks, enfingy. Thenfingy.
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19:24:06 <nooodl> `run welcome nooodl | thanks
19:24:11 <HackEgo> Thanks, schiacker. Thiacker.
19:24:23 <nooodl> it takes the things from the argvs
19:24:48 <boily> `thanks `run welcome nooodl
19:24:50 <HackEgo> Thanks, `run welcome nooodl. Thun welcome nooodl.
19:25:22 <nooodl> `run welcome nooodl | xargs -0 thanks
19:25:25 <HackEgo> Thanks, nooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.). Thooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! F
19:25:36 <nooodl> `run relcome nooodl | xargs -0 thanks
19:25:39 <HackEgo> Thanks, nooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.). Thoo
19:25:46 <olsner> where are the things when there are no argvs?
19:26:00 <nooodl> i literally dont understand the question
19:26:37 <olsner> I don't understand `thanks either
19:27:07 <nooodl> i think this answers your question hth
19:27:21 <nooodl> wait did i break that,
19:27:26 <HackEgo> Thanks, gessime. Thessime.
19:27:57 <nooodl> `run thanks nooodl | hyphenate.fi
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19:29:53 <boily> `run thanks aéroglisseur | hyphenate.fr
19:29:55 <HackEgo> bash: hyphenate.fr: command not found
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19:30:44 <nooodl> a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur hth
19:31:15 <HackEgo> Thanks, boily nooodl. Thoily nooodl.
19:32:47 <Phantom__Hoover> i'm pretty sure this train is banked over quite a long way while going around turns
19:32:51 <boily> `run echo "a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner." >wisdom/hovercraft
19:33:22 <olsner> eeloglisseur, eel glider
19:33:51 <HackEgo> Thanks, elliott. Thelliott.
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19:33:59 <boily> `thanks the elliott.
19:34:01 <HackEgo> Thanks, the elliott.. The elliott..
19:34:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: are you on a trane
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19:36:43 <HackEgo> Thanks, yottogram. Thyottogram.
19:37:33 <Bike> What, that's totally pronounceable.
19:37:38 <Bike> maybe you're just a jerk!
19:37:58 <olsner> and maybe you're just a Bike
19:38:05 <kmc> patches welcome
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19:46:19 <HackEgo> a-é-ro-g-liss-e-ur. If you mention eels, you'll get smacked with one of them in a most unappropriate manner.
19:46:30 <oerjan> i shall imagine this in david suchet's voice
19:46:37 <nooodl> would've used Lingua::EN::Inflect, but it's not in hackego
19:46:39 <boily> ~duck david suchet
19:46:39 <metasepia> David Suchet, CBE (born 2 May 1946) is an English actor, known for his work on British television.
19:56:13 <kmc> what exactly does ~duck search
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19:57:54 <nooodl> `learn nooodl is right
19:58:45 <boily> http://hpaste.org/89381
19:59:42 <kmc> oh cool, I didn't know that ddg does these definition things
20:00:06 <elliott> that extractContent definition :(
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20:02:37 <boily> I think there can be some monoid thingy forast-moon applicative to replace it.
20:02:50 <kmc> extractContent (Answer{..}) = head $ filter (not . null) [abstract, answer, definition, "--- No relevant information"]
20:03:17 <elliott> that definition makes me upset in like at least five ways :(
20:03:31 <kmc> what would you write elliott
20:04:02 <elliott> it's kind of bad that null strings are being used for "no answer" to start with
20:04:09 <elliott> i'd try to make those Maybe Strings asap
20:04:32 <elliott> then e.g. fromMaybe "nothing" (abstract ans <|> answer ans <|> definition ans)
20:04:39 <olsner> maybe instead of that Answer thing, just return the wanted result directly
20:05:07 <elliott> the additional things that upset me about kmc's are 1. the unnecessary parens around Answer{..} 2. the record wildcard (i hate shadowing)
20:05:08 <boily> elliott: I think there's an aeson operator to get a maybe.
20:05:12 <olsner> data Answer = Answer { answer :: String }
20:05:33 <elliott> olsner: well, it comes in as JSON
20:06:03 <boily> I like the <|>. that operator is way underrated.
20:06:25 <kmc> is it actually unnecessary there?
20:07:17 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
20:07:30 <kmc> i agree that Maybe String is preferable; I didn't look to see where those come from
20:07:58 <Bike> this is some important stuff
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20:09:03 <olsner> changed nick to Taneb, I think
20:09:36 <boily> fizzie and Taneb are the same? AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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20:10:33 <olsner> someone should start calling themselves flzzle
20:12:12 <boily> elliott: (.:?) :: FromJSON a => Object -> Text -> Parser (Maybe a)
20:12:57 <elliott> and that special-cases ""?
20:17:56 <shachaf> shadowing, more like shadowing
20:18:15 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> shadowing, more like shadowing
20:18:19 <HackEgo> 1048) <shachaf> shadowing, more like shadowing
20:20:04 <elliott> boily: btw why does it safe search
20:20:23 <kmc> ~duck cocks
20:20:24 <metasepia> cock definition: the adult male of the domestic chicken ('''Gallus gallus''').
20:20:37 <boily> elliott: for kmc reasons.
20:21:06 <kmc> ~duck penis
20:21:18 <Bike> galliformes are such weird species
20:21:18 <boily> elliott: for *very* kmc reasons.
20:21:28 <kmc> imo change that message to "INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER"
20:21:50 <shachaf> not sure we need more data hth
20:23:21 <boily> there's a david boily on wikipedia (no, that's not me. my first name also isn't david.)
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20:56:17 <Vorpal> <olsner> changed nick to Taneb, I think <-- yeah right...
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20:57:30 <Taneb> I don't even know who I am any more
20:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> on the one hand: finally i can give tom francis money; on the other hand: i don't really feel like playing it right now
20:58:42 <boily> Taneb: become Canadian. this will solve all your existential problems.
21:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oh GOD and there's a version with commentary for more money i'm in crisis now
21:01:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, if you give me money I'll ghost-write your Tumblr for you
21:01:22 <Taneb> I've been practising hating brainfuck derivatives
21:01:28 <Taneb> I think I'm getting pretty good at it
21:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> if you can ghostwrite it to the standard of tom francis then yes
21:02:02 <Taneb> The dead cricketer?
21:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> if you can write to the standard of a dead cricketer then yes, i will give you money
21:04:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i am impressed at the amount of effort it must have taken you to find the tom francis who is a dead cricketer, rather than any of the other ones
21:05:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it was a simple matter of going to Wikipedia first, rather than Google
21:09:24 <shachaf> hey Taneb you should write kmc's tumblr account page
21:09:33 <shachaf> you can fill it with drugz jokez
21:13:34 <shachaf> but the rhymenocerous is very very good!
21:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, he did the minecraft experiment if you read that
21:14:49 <nooodl> i didn't but maybe i did
21:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> here http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/11/20/the-minecraft-experiment-day-1-chasing-waterfalls/
21:16:27 <nooodl> ooh. so it's basically a hardcore mode LP, but before hardcore mode even existed
21:17:02 <nooodl> this is pretty good so far
21:18:44 <nooodl> oh maaaaan he's also AWFUL at minecraft,
21:20:51 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_q05r8DcM
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21:29:23 <Taneb> shachaf, btw my progress in Agda is going worringly well in the past couple of hours when compared to the preceding days
21:30:00 <shachaf> Taneb: have you outagdaed me
21:30:21 <Taneb> shachaf, probably not, how agda are you?
21:33:44 <nooodl> what i know about agda: UNICODE
21:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> iirc i gave up on the agda tutorial when there was a bit about "of course, your category theory textbook probably tells you <this>"
21:34:00 <nooodl> and also if_then_else_ is a valid thing
21:35:37 <Taneb> I almost stumbled on "Prove the transitivity of sublistiness"
21:37:00 <Taneb> Because back then I did not think in Agda
21:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i also got confused at one point proving something involving lists equalled something else involving lists
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23:03:02 <Fiora> http://fiorasm.tumblr.com/post/52251266650/optimizing-conways-game-of-life-with-simd-and-lookup if anyone's interested I wrote up a thing
23:21:09 <Fiora> (the friend was bike ofc)
23:35:26 <oerjan> i think movhps xmm3, line3[0]
23:35:51 <oerjan> should have s/xmm3/xmm1/
23:36:40 <oerjan> in the first copy of the eight instructions
23:57:09 <ion> Ah, the fish symbol is an l.
23:57:09 <Koen___> you know, Life freaks me out a bit
23:57:24 <Koen___> I always imagine there's this huge infinite grid somewhere that's a universe
23:58:04 <Bike> Koen___: the hashlife paper's explicit embrace of simulator metaphysics probably wouldn't help your freaking.
23:58:08 <Koen___> but I can't process the question: why would some cells be alive? weren't they initially all dead?
23:58:32 <Bike> why would they be, in your fantasyland
23:59:01 <hagb4rd> but per life has a very strong definition i believe
23:59:17 <Fiora> ion: oh, sorry <.< I was just scribbling in photoshop
00:00:01 <Koen___> actually I've had a recurring nightmare since I was little and it's never stopped (as opposed to the more classic nightmares involving monsters)
00:00:09 <Koen___> and there's an automaton in it, or something
00:00:20 <Koen___> and the universe always end up implosing and I CAN'T STOP IT
00:00:25 <ion> fiora: Cool article.
00:00:34 <hagb4rd> reproduction, metabolism and
00:00:39 <Koen___> and whenever I wake up after that recurring automaton nightmare I try to make sense out of it but I've never succeeded
00:01:03 <hagb4rd> dont remember the last conditions
00:01:27 <Bike> hagb4rd: oh, you mean the definition of real world life? nah that's a hilarious flamewar
00:01:31 <kmc> simultor metaphysics?
00:01:50 <Bike> kmc: the real world is running in a simulator
00:02:00 <Koen___> why would reproduction be necessary to define life?
00:02:07 <ion> It’s simulators all the way down.
00:02:10 <Bike> the hashlife idea happens to be applicable to basically any kind of physics where you have a speed of life, so
00:02:14 <Bike> speed of light*
00:02:28 <Fiora> hashlife is really cool and bike can explain it 100 times better than I can
00:02:52 <kmc> i vaguely understand it but would appreciate a good explanation
00:03:36 <hagb4rd> what is a virus? vira don' t have metabolism.. is virus not a life form? i asked myself recently
00:03:39 <Bike> ok, well, it's pretty easy. what you need is a space you want to simulate, and the physics have to have a speed of light.
00:03:49 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:04:39 <Bike> you divide space into areas (in Life, squares of width 2^n for some natural n).
00:04:41 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, it depends on what you mean by 'life'. There is no 'reality' saying "This is life, and this isn't". The term 'life' is what we define it to be
00:04:59 <hagb4rd> yea i mean from the point of the biologists
00:05:00 <Bike> then for each space, you can find what the center of that space will be in some time, due to the speed of light.
00:05:51 <Bike> i.e., if you have a 2^8 block in Life, the center 2^4 block can be simulated 2^3 steps ahead, without caring about any other 2^8 block, because the speed of light is 1 square per step.
00:07:01 <Bike> for representing a block of space, rather than tracking the actual Life bitmap or whatever, you just have each block be five pointers (in Life anyway), each to a block half the size of the block.
00:07:08 <Bike> four quadrants + a cached future center
00:07:16 <pikhq> Hashlife adds to this a hash map of subspaces.
00:07:30 <pikhq> (as a cache, of course)
00:07:52 <oerjan> Koen___: http://xkcd.com/505/ hth
00:08:00 <Bike> Yeah, the idea is, if you need a new space for whatever reason, you make it out of its linked subspaces, and if those subspaces have been combined before, you can just use that same previous combination.
00:08:04 <Bike> which might have its future cached.
00:08:09 <pikhq> It turns out that Life tends to have many common subspaces, so doing this lets you skip a lot of combination via memoization.
00:08:39 <Bike> what if i'm simulating life with SKI pikhq, what then
00:08:55 <pikhq> Then you are memoizing combinations as well. :P
00:10:28 <hagb4rd> aw..you're talking about the game of life
00:10:29 <Koen___> oerjan: yeah that was a really good one
00:11:03 <Bike> well, if you want real life, virology is pretty interesting
00:11:19 <Bike> there are viruses that have more protein construction mechanisms than some bacteria
00:11:38 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:11:41 <Bike> "mamavirus" because what is even your deal, virologists
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00:12:51 <Bike> also http://rybicki.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/from-what-did-viruses-evolve-or-how-did-they-initially-arise/
00:13:21 <Bike> the idea that viruses have come about originally several times is a pretty neat one, since it's not the case for life in general
00:14:07 <hagb4rd> i understand it's still a controversial topic
00:14:51 <Bike> well nobody really understands what the fuck happened with abiogenesis, so there's that.
00:18:34 <pikhq> Gotta love things where we just go "well, it clearly happened"
00:20:20 <Bike> there's RNA world and clay world and all as hypotheses that are half-plausible but they're still pretty out there
00:20:41 <kmc> panspermia
00:20:51 <hagb4rd> hail the mighty penis in the sky
00:20:55 <Bike> main that ain't a real solution >:
00:21:09 <kmc> main ain't usually a function
00:22:01 <kmc> yeah it isn't
00:22:19 <Bike> it would be nice if we could at least conclude it, though.
00:23:47 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Borderline_life how useful
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00:26:53 <Bike> viroids are cool and that's that man
00:43:44 <shachaf> um...................the ch is a fricative...........................................................
00:43:57 <Bike> That sounds like nerd stuff.
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00:47:55 <shachaf> hey Bike write me a limerick
00:48:17 <Bike> there once was a man from nantucket, whose cock was so long he could suck it,
00:48:52 <oerjan> he said write, not quote, Bike
00:55:52 <shachaf> Fiora: Do you know about de bruijn sequences?
00:58:35 <Fiora> um... they're the things you can use to do leading-zero count with bit hackiness, right?
01:00:23 <shachaf> Trailing, I thought? Possibly both. Anyway that's one thing you can do with them.
01:00:26 <Bike> oh that thing that's in sanskrit for some reason.
01:00:26 <shachaf> Also lots of other things. De Bruijn was the best.
01:02:09 <Fiora> other things? I remember looking at the wikipedia article and being a bit confused
01:03:18 <kmc> i think i am slowly learning how to pronounce 'shachaf'
01:03:37 <shachaf> And, uh, let's say you have a keypad-combination-lock with no termination digit. You can use a de bruijn sequence to figure out the most efficient way to brute-force it!
01:03:47 <shachaf> (Maybe it's not called brute-force at that point...)
01:04:09 <shachaf> I went to a talk which mentioned them.
01:04:25 <Bike> it's hebrew isn't it? and if i've learned anything from Rugrats it's that i can't pronounce hebrew "ch"
01:04:33 <kmc> we had a lot of locks like that in college, and people did bruteforce them
01:04:44 <kmc> except I think they weren't precisely with-no-termination-digit
01:05:08 <Bike> i fucking love that first kana
01:05:24 <Fiora> It looks like a sideways smiley XD
01:05:40 <Bike> the combination lock thing is neat though
01:05:47 <shachaf> Fiora: I doubt it. The "ch" is as in the recording on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_fricative
01:06:20 <Fiora> oh. darn. I can't kana that
01:06:34 <Bike> we clearly need hebrew with a japanese alphabet
01:07:15 <shachaf> The effect was something along these lines: He handed out a deck of cards, told a few people to cut it, and then had 5 people take the top card and pass the deck to the person on their right.
01:07:30 <Bike> I have a lot of trouble with the phonemes that look like "x" in ipa
01:07:37 <shachaf> Then he said "I have a strong sense of red... Stand up if you have a red card".
01:07:42 <shachaf> Then he told everyon what their card was.
01:07:56 <shachaf> If you know about de bruijn sequences you can figure out how it works!
01:08:01 <pikhq> I think the Japanese approximation whould be "shahhafu".
01:08:21 <Fiora> (I still like the シ)
01:08:22 <pikhq> There'd be a sokuon there.
01:08:37 <Bike> it's just so damn happy to be a character
01:08:40 <Fiora> makes sense... doubled-h is kind of a weird thing in japanese
01:09:07 <pikhq> it is, but that's how it's done.
01:09:07 <Bike> doesn't japanese have "doubled consonants" as a usual thing?
01:09:23 <pikhq> Bike: That particular consonant being doubled is unusual.
01:09:51 <pikhq> Though not *impossible*.
01:09:57 <pikhq> Admittedly only a thing in loan words.
01:10:37 <shachaf> What are other good applications of de bruijn sequences?
01:11:08 <olsner> brute forcing code locks?
01:11:23 <Bike> Maybe if you want to be able to sample all possible sequences of a certain length easily?
01:12:22 <olsner> apparently it has applications in sanskrit prosody
01:12:38 <Bike> wondering if you could use it in DNA somehow, except that proteins are variably length coded to say the least
01:13:03 <shachaf> I guess de bruijn sequences are related to shift registers somehow?
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01:26:39 <kmc> how do you generate de bruijn sequences
01:27:34 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_sequence#Algorithm something like this I guess?
01:28:31 <olsner> I wonder if that's really the best way
01:29:03 <Bike> the problem with that page is that i try to find a euler path in the pictured graph >_>
01:29:44 <Sgeo> Going to work on Rebol deadfish
01:30:07 <Bike> Fiora: hit every edge exactly once
01:30:57 <Bike> well it's supposed to be a cycle also.
01:30:57 <Sgeo> And I can't even figure out how to read just one character from the console
01:31:02 <Sgeo> Erm, from stdin
01:31:17 <Fiora> Bike: oh, so it's like that puzzle about crossing each bridge once
01:31:26 <Bike> Fiora: exactly the same puzzle, even
01:31:29 <Sgeo> I guess I could try reading the whole thing in, and hoping that it doesn't actually store the whole thing in memory
01:31:31 <kmc> they're easy to find, unlikel hamiltonian paths
01:31:36 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_K%C3%B6nigsberg
01:31:37 <olsner> "de Bruijn sequences can be generated by feedback shift registers" according to http://mathworld.wolfram.com/deBruijnSequence.html
01:31:38 <kmc> (which visit every vertex once)
01:32:15 <Sgeo> kmc, which makes more sense, a Racket version of Qoppa, or a Rebol version of Qoppa? Racket is more Lispy, but there's less of an impedence mismatch between Rebol and Qoppa than Racket and Qoppa
01:32:45 <kmc> i don't know
01:33:33 <Bike> i do not understand the use of "impedence mismatch" here
01:35:19 <Sgeo> Racket is a rather static language. Modules are expected to know what values they can export, for example
01:35:55 <Sgeo> At ... a point in static analysis... hmm, suddenly I'm not sure whether that might be the case for various proposed module systems for Rebol
01:37:30 <Sgeo> At any rate, right now I should be writing some documentation for work
01:37:35 <Sgeo> Told my boss I'd do that when I get home
01:39:51 <Sgeo> I think Qoppa is closer to Rebol than Racket conceptually
01:40:52 <kmc> you could also implement Kernel instead of my weird bastardized version of Kernel
01:41:04 <Bike> but cyclic lists are /so annoying/ kmc
01:41:13 <kmc> a lot of the changes are just for the sake of the self-hosting trick
01:41:22 <kmc> in a sense the Qoppa interpreter I posted is a polyglot program
01:41:39 <Sgeo> kmc, but didn't you unbastardize the bizarre distinction between functions and operatives?
01:41:52 <kmc> but I guess there are some unsavory consequences too
01:44:49 <Bike> i still don't really get why you all think that distinction is weird
01:45:40 <kmc> Sgeo: i don't remember, it's in the blog post
01:46:21 <kmc> Bike: it's just weird because fexprs let you remove so many cases from the evaluator, but then you end up with two cases that are almost the same
01:47:31 <Bike> what two cases?
01:47:40 <kmc> for operatives and applicatives
01:47:52 <Bike> combine applicative combinand env = combine (unwrap applicative) (map (eval env) combinand) env
01:47:52 <kmc> in Kernel they are distinct fundamental data types
01:47:59 <Bike> or do i not understand what cases you're talking about
01:48:22 <kmc> that's a case yes
01:48:22 <Bike> applicatives aren't really fundamental, they're just a wrapper around operatives
01:48:37 <kmc> in Kernel they are presented as fundamental
01:48:41 <kmc> that's what Sgeo and I think is weird
01:49:42 <Bike> "an applicative is nothing more than a wrapper to induce operand evaluation" doesn't seem that fundamental
01:49:47 <Bike> and i don't get how the cases are the same?
01:50:06 <Sgeo> Bike, the fact that it's physically different than just putting a wrapper around an operand
01:50:16 <Bike> "physically different"?
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01:50:33 <Sgeo> As in, there's an actual distinction, at the language level, saying "these are applicatives", and "these are operatives"
01:50:45 <kmc> okay, they're not really the same because you can implement one in terms of the other, but it's one more case and one more fundamental data type than I would like to have.
01:50:55 <Sgeo> Rather than "everything is an operatives, and some operatives happen to have a wrapper around them that evaluates their arguments when called"
01:51:19 <kmc> it's just weird that "things which happen to evaluate all their args first" are seen as fundamentally different from "things which may or may not evaluate all their args first"
01:51:32 <Bike> hm, maybe i'm thinking of it differently since i've been working maru style.
01:52:09 <Bike> you could have generic functions, for example, and use "wrap" on them to get them to evaluate their arguments, even as generic functions have a totally different combination mechanism from operatives
01:52:35 <Bike> and the applicative path of the evaluator doesn't have to have any idea that the thing it's unwrapping isn't a regular operative
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02:12:52 <Bike> @pl \x y -> all ((flip elem) y) x
02:13:12 <Bike> how's @pl work?
02:14:45 <Sgeo> ) 13 : 'y + y'
02:14:59 <Sgeo> ) 13 : 'x + x + y + y'
02:15:00 <jconn> Sgeo: [ + [ + ] + ]
02:16:14 <Sgeo> ) 13 : 'x + y + x + y'
02:19:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoovlogreader: o.O she's named Zhaan? I thought it was Xan!
02:21:23 <Gregor> "What's the most complex thing you do in your kitchen?" "Worry about death."
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02:32:43 <hagb4rd> @showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 ""
02:33:35 <Bike> > showIntAtBase 2 (intToDigit 23 "")
02:33:36 <lambdabot> The function `GHC.Show.intToDigit' is applied to two arguments,
02:34:07 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23
02:34:11 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
02:34:23 <hagb4rd> @showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 ""
02:34:28 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23
02:34:30 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
02:35:31 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 ""
02:36:31 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 "bla"
02:36:40 <kmc> i'm told that false morels (Gyromitra esculenta) are sold in Finland and eaten after careful preparation
02:37:14 <kmc> weird brain-looking mushroom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fr%C3%BChjahrslorchel.JPG
02:37:37 <hagb4rd> i really don't understand why there is that 2nd argument..does that make any sense?
02:38:07 <Fiora> That mushroom looks like a funnel cake
02:38:46 <kmc> > intToDigit 15
02:38:52 <kmc> > intToDigit 35
02:38:54 <lambdabot> *Exception: Char.intToDigit: not a digit 35
02:38:58 <kmc> > intToDigit 16
02:39:00 <lambdabot> *Exception: Char.intToDigit: not a digit 16
02:39:10 <kmc> anyway it lets you use whatever alphabet you want
02:39:30 <kmc> > showIntAtBase ("-."!!) intToDigit 23 ""
02:39:31 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral
02:39:42 <kmc> > showIntAtBase 2 ("-."!!) 23 ""
02:39:58 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit ff
02:42:00 <hagb4rd> i'd like to somehow implement a little tool throwing 'i-ching' hexagrams
02:42:37 <Bike> well, ~yi does that, if metasepia's around.
02:43:09 <Sgeo> Starting to see some flaws in the Rebol model
02:43:15 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fungi_of_Finland
02:43:29 <Sgeo> For instance, it's difficult to write a thing that puts all setting into a new scope, but leaves others untouched
02:44:03 <Sgeo> If you don't look inside nested code, then you can't do sets inside control structures. But if you do, you could get odd behavior if you try to use the same function inside that thing
02:44:28 <Sgeo> fwiw, what Rebol does with its context function is not look inside nested blocks
02:45:50 <Sgeo> Maybe an example
02:46:37 <Sgeo> >> a: 5 context [a: 6 print a] print a
02:46:41 <Sgeo> That prints 6 then 5
02:46:59 <Sgeo> a: 5 context [print a a: 6] print a
02:47:02 <Sgeo> prints none then 5
02:47:08 <Sgeo> Nothing too bizarre so far
02:48:03 <Sgeo> a: 5 context [if 0 < 1 [a: 6] print a] print a
02:56:07 <Sgeo> There's a hack that can be done to do varargs in Rebol 3. Apparently it's slated for removal
03:05:20 <Sgeo> And I found a hack that doesn't need that hack
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06:22:08 <zamlierza> I'm currently working on my first compiler, for a lisp-like language, written in Common Lisp (sbcl). Recently I've been playing with Racket. Is anyone else here using one of the lisps?
06:22:33 <Bike> esoteric lisp?
06:24:37 <Bike> i'm just wondering why you're asking here
06:30:40 <HackEgo> ZaMlIeRzA: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
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06:48:18 <shachaf> kmc: lens has a good intatbase thing
06:49:29 <lambdabot> s -> Getting (First a) s a -> Maybe a
06:49:40 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Applicative f, Choice p) => Int -> p a (f a) -> p String (f String)
06:49:54 <shachaf> hi Bike want to learn about lens
06:50:11 <Bike> what is lens, really? we just don't know
06:50:42 <shachaf> @ty ( # ) -- interferes with a GHC extension for (# ... #) tuple syntax
06:50:55 <shachaf> lens is a library for a bunch of things, including lenses.
06:51:11 <shachaf> And prisms, which are colenses. (base n) is a prism.
06:51:32 <Bike> lens is a getter and a setter, you said. what's a colens.
06:52:20 <shachaf> Well, a colens is to a sum what a lens is to a product.
06:52:26 <shachaf> Do you know about sums and products?
06:52:54 <shachaf> (a,b) is a product, (Either a b) is a sum.
06:53:05 <shachaf> And all things which behave like tuples or Eithers.
06:53:33 <shachaf> If A has n inhabitants and B has m inhabitants, then (A,B) has n*m and (Either A B) has (n+m)
06:53:55 <shachaf> So you see how a lens is for a product?
06:54:03 <shachaf> data Foo = Foo { one :: Int, two :: Char }
06:54:25 <shachaf> You can have a "one" lens which lets you do two things: Read the "one" value, and change the "one" value to some new Int.
06:54:51 <shachaf> data Bar = One Int | Two Char
06:55:01 <shachaf> You can have a "One" prism which also lets you do two things:
06:55:13 <shachaf> The things are Int -> Bar and Bar -> Maybe Int
06:55:17 <Bike> I'm still back at lenses being products.
06:55:26 <shachaf> Oh, lenses are *for* products.
06:55:33 <shachaf> Since Foo is a product type (of Int and Char).
06:55:44 <Bike> ok, that makes sense.
06:55:54 <shachaf> Bar is a sum type of Int and Char.
06:55:59 <zamlierza> I'm working on a genetic program for the creation and optimisation of ciphers, whilst the optimisations still in process here're some early results: http://pastebin.com/GKwfKENX http://pastebin.com/FQdMNqFZ
06:56:12 <shachaf> data Bool = False | True; data Color = Red | Green | Blue
06:56:46 <shachaf> Anyway, which part is confusing right now?
06:56:56 <Bike> zamlierza: the second one is admirably hard to read
06:57:10 <zamlierza> Bike: That is the fun of this channel!
06:57:11 <Bike> shachaf: nothing in particular, that made sense. i'm just sleepy.
06:57:37 <shachaf> A traversal is like a lens onto more than one value.
06:57:46 <shachaf> Well, onto zero or more values.
06:57:47 <Bike> So what's base operating on? or ok something else
06:58:19 <shachaf> Oh, base is on a "conceptual" sum, not an actual sum type.
06:58:34 <Bike> but what's the concept.
06:59:08 <shachaf> The two prism functions are called review and preview
06:59:33 <shachaf> A string is sort of like a sum: Either it has a valid base-N value or an invalid value.
07:00:03 <Bike> is Either in the Choice class?
07:00:08 <shachaf> But given a base-N value you can always turn it into a string.
07:00:21 <zamlierza> I'm thinking of having it automatically encrypt an input of all Falses, deducting abs(sum(map(lambda x: 1 if >= 0 else -1,output))) this will ensure precedence to even distribution, seems to be the simplest part. For the main challenge; avoiding recurrent patterns, I'll be using something along the lines of. http://pastebin.com/5LvxG01V
07:00:21 <shachaf> No, Choice is something more complicated.
07:00:28 <shachaf> It has to do with the representation of prisms lens uses.
07:00:30 <Bike> right, of course.
07:00:42 <zamlierza> obviously accompanied by a similar function for handling lists of recurring True's or False's
07:00:44 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Applicative f, Choice p) => p a (f a) -> p String (f String)
07:00:54 <zamlierza> I'll upload what I've got so far if anyones got any idea's, otherwise I'll wait until it's at a functioning point.
07:00:56 <shachaf> I can explain that representation but that should be a separate thing.
07:01:06 <Bike> yeah, don't let me derail you
07:01:24 <shachaf> What's derailing me is multisecond latency from my computer to my IRC client.
07:01:42 <Bike> what's derailing me is multisecond latency from my brain to my blinking
07:01:46 <shachaf> obviously accompanied by a similar function for handling lists of recurring True's or False's
07:02:05 <zamlierza> http://pastebin.com/J8Aer7Rx I'm going with that for now.
07:02:21 <zamlierza> It's not genetic yet but I'll build from this: http://pastebin.com/E4dGw97L
07:02:26 <shachaf> So close, zamlierza. Socloszamlierza.
07:02:30 <Bike> man, paste is not doing that indentation good
07:03:21 <shachaf> Bike: Am I going on and talking about the representation of lenses?
07:03:38 <kmc> is it supposed to have a huge amount of copy-pasted code?
07:04:20 <Bike> shachaf: if you go on i'll listen. you had explained how a string can be interpreted wrt numerical bases as a prism, and were about to explain review and preview maybe.
07:04:44 <shachaf> > preview _Left (Left "hi")
07:04:47 <shachaf> > preview _Left (Right "hi")
07:04:57 <shachaf> That's all there is to them. They take the two components of a prism.
07:05:27 <lambdabot> MonadReader b m => AReview s t a b -> m t
07:05:38 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Choice p) => p a (f b) -> p (Either a c) (f (Either b c))
07:05:56 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting (First a) s a -> m (Maybe a)
07:05:57 <shachaf> _Left :: Prism (Either a c) (Either b c) a b
07:06:05 <Bike> i remember y'all complaining about whoever's bizarre type signatures in lens
07:06:17 <shachaf> Um, the Prism ones are kind of my fault.
07:06:30 <shachaf> (To be fair it was even worse back in the day.)
07:07:11 <shachaf> do you know the following things: mapM; Applicative; Traversable
07:08:12 <Bike> Uh, the first two.
07:08:35 <shachaf> Traversable is just a generalization of mapM with Applicative.
07:08:49 <shachaf> You know how mapM could get away with just requiring Applicative instead of Monad?
07:09:42 <shachaf> OK, so let's pretend mapM uses Applicative instead of Monad from now on.
07:09:59 <shachaf> traverse generalizes mapM the same way fmap generalizes map
07:11:49 <shachaf> So let's define some functions.
07:12:08 <shachaf> one :: (a -> b) -> (a,e) -> (b,e)
07:12:18 <shachaf> two :: (a -> b) -> (e,a) -> (e,b)
07:12:25 <shachaf> both :: (a -> b) -> (a,a) -> (b,b)
07:13:07 <shachaf> These are sort of like fmap, except instead of using a type class to decide what to map over, we just name a function explicitly.
07:14:20 <shachaf> So these are "map" functions -- they let us modify a value/values -- but not "mapM" functions -- we can't have effects.
07:14:43 <shachaf> But we can generalize them in a pretty simple way to be "mapM" functions.
07:14:50 <shachaf> Can you generalize them for me?
07:15:48 <Bike> one :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (a, e) -> m (b, e) maybe
07:16:27 <shachaf> Except you don't need Monad. You can manage with Applicative, or even just Functor.
07:16:30 <Bike> yep not, or yep yep
07:16:48 <Bike> the thing where monads aren't functors seems sillier and sillier.
07:19:11 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTc3PsW5ghQ
07:19:18 <shachaf> yip yip yip yip yip yip yip
07:19:44 <shachaf> Hmm, they're talking too much in English.
07:20:47 <Bike> I don't see how to do it with functor.
07:21:16 <shachaf> Do you see how to do it with MOnad?
07:21:43 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePN5z-6MSoI
07:22:14 <Bike> uh.... i don't think i do, no
07:23:18 <shachaf> OK, start by writing the regular one. Then oneM/oneF/whatever.
07:24:00 <Bike> one f (a, e) = (f a, e)
07:24:07 <shachaf> It's a very put-the-pieces-together sort of puzzle.
07:24:53 <shachaf> > let oneM :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, e) -> f (b, e); oneM f (x, y) = ?hi f x y
07:24:55 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let oneM :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, e) -> f (b, ...
07:25:00 <shachaf> @ty let oneM :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, e) -> f (b, e); oneM f (x, y) = ?hi f x y in oneM
07:25:01 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (?hi::(a1 -> f1 b1) -> a1 -> e1 -> f1 (b1, e1))
07:25:01 <lambdabot> arising from a use of implicit parameter `?hi'
07:25:22 <shachaf> We have three "ingredients": (a1 -> f1 b1), a1, e1
07:25:36 <shachaf> We have to produce f1 (b1, e1)
07:25:41 <shachaf> We're also allowed to use fmap
07:26:35 <shachaf> What might be our first step?
07:27:22 <shachaf> kmc: those aliens are so great
07:28:30 <kmc> i should learn all this lens stuff
07:28:36 <kmc> it might be an excuse to get excited about Haskell again!
07:29:21 <shachaf> there's an edwardk presentation video about it if you want to watch that
07:29:33 <kmc> the last time I disappeared from Haskell for a while, I came back and everyone was talking about this newfangled Applicative thing and I had to learn that
07:29:59 <shachaf> in fact the rumour is that it might become a superclass of Monad in ghc 7.10 or so..........................
07:30:36 <shachaf> i was "into lens for" a while: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/contributors
07:30:48 <shachaf> but now nobody is committing
07:31:03 <shachaf> edwardk is, like, into his new databases and stuff
07:31:34 <Bike> i don't get how this is possible. to get an f1 (b1, e1) there's no other way but fmap, so we need an f1 (a1, e1), but we have no way to get that
07:32:11 <shachaf> But that something needn't be a tuple.
07:32:32 <shachaf> It just needs to be something that you can turn into (b1, e1)
07:33:04 <Bike> god, i'm so slow
07:34:10 <Bike> oneF f a b = fmap (\b -> (b, e)) (f a) maybe
07:34:28 <Bike> oneF f (a,e) b rather
07:34:46 <shachaf> And not that either. It only has two arguments.
07:34:56 <Bike> thinking is hard
07:35:10 <shachaf> oneF f (x,y) = fmap (\x' -> (x', y)) (f x)
07:35:28 <shachaf> oneF f (x,y) = (,y) <$> f x -- if you like this sort of thing
07:35:29 <Bike> is that what i said with different letters? i literally can't tell right now
07:36:00 <shachaf> both :: Applicative f => (a -> b) -> (a,a) -> f (b,b)
07:36:23 <shachaf> (By the way, you might be so tired you can't tell, but I'm so tired I'm explaining everything badly. So if you have to blame someone blame me. hth)
07:37:32 <shachaf> Anyway, so the great thing about this is that it lets you read as well as write.
07:37:44 <shachaf> OK, I'm not making any sense anyway.
07:38:00 <kmc> the part of it i read made sense!
07:38:41 <shachaf> OK, let's go backward a bit.
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07:39:48 <shachaf> ok will say nothing until someone else says something
07:39:55 <Bike> i'm still thinking!!
07:39:57 <Bike> i told you it was hard
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07:40:34 <kmc> no it was "some"
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07:45:38 <Bike> ok i'm declaring myself too tired to thinking through this because jfc it's been ten minutes and this is not hard
07:45:47 <Bike> thanks for the random explanation, i'll think about it tomorrow
07:45:56 <shachaf> wait, what are you thinking about
07:46:25 <shachaf> you have to use Applicative
07:46:36 <shachaf> which means you get to use liftA2
07:46:41 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c
07:48:28 <shachaf> Remember, it's just mapM for tuples.
07:50:41 <Bike> both f (a,a') = liftA2 (,) (f a) (f a')
07:52:12 <shachaf> Now, exercise: Write oldBoth using both.
07:52:44 <shachaf> (I'm too tired to explain things so I'm just giving exercises instead.)
07:52:48 <Bike> oldBoth :: Applicative f => (a -> b) -> (a,a) -> (b,b) you mean?
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07:52:57 <Bike> er, w/o restriction.
07:53:26 <shachaf> By the way, we define type synonyms for these things.
07:53:40 <shachaf> In theory we could just say type Mapper s a = (a -> a) -> s -> s
07:53:50 <shachaf> And then oldBoth :: Mapper (a,a) a
07:53:54 <shachaf> But then we can't change the type.
07:54:04 <shachaf> So we write type Mapper s t a b = (a -> b) -> s -> t
07:54:09 <shachaf> oldBoth :: Mapper (a,a) (b,b) a b
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08:03:07 <shachaf> Bike: perhaps tomorrow, a lensson
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12:06:54 <oerjan> <kmc> anyway it lets you use whatever alphabet you want <-- of course someone should have noticed that it's stupid to restrict it to Char...
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12:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Timeline_of_cool.svg this is a terribly confusing chart
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12:46:17 <boily> s/confusing/depressing/
12:46:28 <boily> everything getting borg'ed into dance/techno...
12:47:45 <oerjan> no no, clearly we'll be saved by something coming out of the preppy ennui hth
12:48:03 <oerjan> just take care of your sangfroid man
12:48:45 <boily> oerjan: that's good advice.
12:48:50 <boily> (btw, what's preppi ennui?)
12:49:36 <oerjan> i think it means something like bored upper-class
12:50:10 <boily> that doesn't help me much about how it sounds.
12:51:04 <boily> 5 hits for “preppy ennui”. go, youtube, go!
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12:51:50 <boily> and no wiki article. what the fungot is this unknown musical current. it must be hipster as hell.
12:52:12 <boily> oh, an fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOT!
12:52:16 <boily> (pretty please :D)
12:53:00 <boily> @tell fizzie AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAfungotAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
12:54:43 <oerjan> boily: um the chart is not basically about music hth
12:55:31 <HackEgo> 2013-06-03 17:46:37: <fizzie> I've installed that "Hacker's Keyboard" thing from the market to my Android thing. But maybe it's not all that combattible.
12:57:29 <boily> oerjan: indeed. there is dadaism and surrealism and other stuff. I got distracted by the bottom section and the geographical locations.
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14:51:39 <Koen_> oerjan: do you know who 76.100.81.188 is?
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17:01:10 <oerjan> @tell Koen_ No; their only other edit is to Talk:Jug.
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17:11:36 <oerjan> argh the daystar, through my window!
17:13:05 <shachaf> oerjan: That is why we do not go into it without our abjurations. Protection from Daylight.
17:14:46 <boily> protection from the daystar is an abjuration?
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17:16:19 <oerjan> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html
17:19:09 <shachaf> Is there a place that has good transcriptions of every oots comic?
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17:25:43 <shachaf> oerjan: when are we getting 892 hth
17:26:25 <oerjan> when the stars are right hth
17:31:27 <metasepia> CYUL 061700Z 09005KT 10SM -RA SCT055 OVC075 15/08 A3017 RMK SC3AC5 SLP216
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20:05:42 <boily> ~eval text "seems that I don't have this character, or rxvt is being mean to me again."
20:05:42 <kappabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg kappabot @messages' to read it.
20:05:46 <boily> ~eval text "seems that I don't have this character, or rxvt is being mean to me again."
20:05:48 <metasepia> Perhaps you meant `next' (imported from System.Random)
20:06:19 <boily> oerjan: tomorrow. it's past 4pm now.
20:08:08 <boily> you said about three weeks ago: “whack me in the morning.”
20:08:29 <oerjan> that's some late morning.
20:08:34 <boily> I don't remember why I had to whack you, but I'm a honest man who keeps his promises.
20:09:05 <oerjan> yes, it's quite a french error to do
20:09:49 <boily> so, would 9am EST suit you?
20:10:24 <boily> you didn't see nothing.
20:10:45 <oerjan> well i cannot _guarantee_ i'll be up by then, since i barely was today
20:11:30 <oerjan> i'm not on UTC. ok that could be enough.
20:11:36 <kappabot> Yow! Is my fallout shelter termite proof?
20:11:40 <metasepia> This fortune intentionally says nothing.
20:12:27 <kappabot> Down with categorical imperative!
20:12:49 <oerjan> maybe i should eat an apple, seeing as i unusually bought some
20:14:35 * oerjan health freak. or was it freaky health.
20:15:08 <oerjan> shachaf: those are some general fortunes
20:15:58 <boily> I have some “MIX RICE CRACKERS” on my desk. their ingredients are: RIZ GLUANT,SAUCE SOYA,TAPI.
20:16:14 <boily> what in fungot's name is TAPI, I have no idea.
20:16:43 <oerjan> it's tapirs, they just got cut off hth
20:17:25 <kappabot> Maj. Bloodnok:Seagoon, you're a coward!
20:17:25 <kappabot> Seagoon:Only in the holiday season.
20:17:25 <kappabot> Maj. Bloodnok:Ah, another Noel Coward!
20:17:42 <kappabot> When conflict is reconciled, some hard feelings remain;
20:17:42 <kappabot> The sage accepts less than is due
20:17:52 <kappabot> The ancients said: "nature is impartial;
20:17:54 <kappabot> Therefore it serves those who serve all."
20:18:10 <shachaf> i thought it would be an entry from the devil's dictionary hth
20:18:17 <metasepia> What does "it" mean in the sentence "What time is it?"?
20:18:21 <Bike> i can't get over his name sounding like "lousy"
20:18:40 <shachaf> Bike: it doesn't sound like lousy hth
20:18:47 <oerjan> boily: which ~yi entry is the above @fortune for twh
20:20:13 <oerjan> Bike: yeah those chinese have such confusious names
20:20:23 <metasepia> Your divination: "Gnawing Bite" to "Brightness Hiding"
20:20:36 <boily> why did I code that again...
20:20:56 <oerjan> to know your fate, obviously
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20:58:39 <Bike> What was the packagey thing that had unsigned/verified/etc. packages and somebody wrote a quick exploit for it?
21:02:26 -!- comex has changed nick to HARLOT_SAFE.
21:04:01 <oerjan> HARLOT_SAFE: is that safe for harlots or safe from harlots?
21:04:59 <HARLOT_SAFE> oerjan: neither: it means I'm safe from being a werewolf because the harlot visited me :)
21:07:00 -!- HARLOT_SAFE has changed nick to co.
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21:08:50 <oerjan> copumpkin: i think your services are required
21:09:08 <oerjan> ignore the elliott spam thx
21:09:18 <co> elliott: you should play wolfgame
21:10:00 <elliott> oerjan: you should op me so I can kick myself for spamming
21:10:14 -!- mnoqy has joined.
21:10:35 <category> i'm telling you to op me!!!!!!!!!
21:10:35 * oerjan suddenly envisions there being a huge amount of opening brackets at the big bang and closing brackets at the other end to balance out the universe
21:10:38 <category> it is a categorical imperative
21:11:08 <mnoqy> category: hi shachaf
21:11:29 <oerjan> i believe kappabot has already started a rebellion against those, category
21:11:36 <kappabot> Rincewind formed a mental picture of some strange entity living in a castle
21:11:37 <kappabot> made of teeth. It was the kind of mental picture you tried to forget.
21:11:37 <kappabot> -- Terry Pratchett, "The Light Fantastic"
21:11:44 <Bike> has anyone actually read kant (i haven't)
21:11:53 <elliott> Bike: i tried to but... i kant
21:12:02 <shachaf> Bike: i tried, but i kouldnt do it
21:12:12 <Bike> shachaf > elliott
21:12:18 <Bike> srry just the facts
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21:14:39 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you hear my limerick the other day
21:19:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: look at this innovations
21:23:23 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see my limerick
21:23:41 <oerjan> was this the one with multiocular o
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21:30:01 <Bike> http://www.nsa.gov/kids/ oh yes.
21:31:19 -!- co has changed nick to twilight_sparkle.
21:31:40 <Bike> On this site, you can learn all about codes and ciphers, play lots of games and activities, and get to know each of us - Crypto Cat®, Decipher Dog®, Rosetta Stone®, Slate®, Joules™, T.Top®, CyberTwins™ Cy and Cyndi, and, of course, our leader CSS Sam®.
21:31:46 <oerjan> m chocolate covered peanuts
21:31:49 -!- twilight_sparkle has changed nick to Guest741.
21:31:56 <Bike> I don't know why some are trademarked and some are copyrighted.
21:32:00 <Fiora> Bike: my gosh, that is amazing.
21:32:06 -!- Guest741 has changed nick to comex.
21:32:20 <mnoqy> im gonna play operation:dit-dah
21:32:41 <mnoqy> oh it's just doing morse code
21:32:45 <mnoqy> maybe they have other games
21:33:01 <mnoqy> Yardleygrams - Only SUPER cipher solvers can crack these cipher stories
21:33:24 <kmc> 4096-bit RSA
21:33:29 <mnoqy> Coloring Pages - Print and color your favorite member from the CryptoKids
21:33:34 <mnoqy> i think this is the game for me
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21:37:33 <elliott> Bike: so nsa is advertising to furries now
21:37:51 <Bike> america's future yiffers
21:38:28 <mnoqy> it's not uncommon to use anthropomorphic animal friends for things directed at children
21:38:37 <mnoqy> maybe this is a two birds with one stone sort of deal
21:38:44 <kmc> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=CG-FCA&Category_Code=WON
21:39:03 <elliott> these things look a bit "fursona" to me, mnoqy
21:39:07 <Bike> Existentialists Do It Pointlessly
21:39:17 <kmc> haskellers do it pointlessly
21:39:32 <mnoqy> whatt's, "it", here
21:39:35 <elliott> #haskellers do it in stereo
21:39:46 <Bike> mnoqy: the nasty hth
21:39:56 <mnoqy> lots of things are nasty, bike
21:40:00 <mnoqy> you'll have to be more specific
21:40:07 <mnoqy> like is it boogers??? those are pretty nasty
21:40:08 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.thestrong.org/online-collections/images/Z003/Z00361/Z0036126.jpg
21:40:12 <Fiora> this is how I learned to type when I was um... about 6
21:40:41 <Bike> is that a 5 ½ floppy
21:40:48 <Bike> shachaf: that's ® isn't it
21:40:51 <shachaf> Bike: ™ and ® are both trademarks. The latter is a registered trademark.
21:40:58 <Fiora> I think it was a CD
21:41:01 <Fiora> It's for windows 95
21:41:06 <mnoqy> i remember a bunch of anthro from my kiddo years
21:41:07 <Fiora> so 7 years old I guess?
21:41:13 <mnoqy> like richard scarry's busytown
21:41:17 <Bike> i think i learned typing from... something like that but with less animals
21:41:21 <Bike> lots of games with animals though
21:41:35 <kmc> busytown was p. cool
21:41:40 <shachaf> Bike: did you see my limerick
21:41:45 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/RichardScarrysBusytown.PNG
21:42:16 <Fiora> the typing game had all these cool little minigames
21:42:18 <mnoqy> shachaf: you should be ++ing about that amazing picture not the https
21:42:21 <Bike> so now that people are here do any of them know the answer to my earlier question about: hackage or something exploits
21:42:27 <Fiora> like I remember one which was like a wild west shootout except you had to type to take out the bad guys
21:42:30 <Bike> Fiora: typing of the dead
21:42:34 <Fiora> yeah, I was thinking the same thing <.<
21:42:44 <kmc> that was a cool game
21:42:45 <Bike> resident evil, high wpm edition
21:43:07 <shachaf> what's your wpm per minute
21:43:07 <mnoqy> huckle cat & lowly worm
21:44:27 <Fiora> oh wow typing of the dead has a pc version
21:44:36 <mnoqy> ive played a few typing games in my time but they never really helped me...i learned to type once i started typing things like the compute code's
21:45:23 <mnoqy> "About 500,000 Lowly Worm and Huckle Cat finger puppets, distributed by Taco Bell in 1993, were voluntarily recalled by Taco Bell following complaints that the puppets had gotten stuck onto children's tongues."
21:45:31 <Bike> in typing class i mostly just played Bolo
21:45:56 <Fiora> I played Paws a lot about the same time as learning piano
21:46:00 <Fiora> it kind of synergized I think
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21:47:19 <elliott> Bike: hackage exploits aren't really impressive because like...
21:47:34 <elliott> Bike: literally anyone with a hackage account can upload a new version of any package
21:47:41 <elliott> it's like breaking into a house with no doors
21:47:57 <mnoqy> it's prettty hard to break into a house with no doors
21:48:01 <mnoqy> how about a house made of doors
21:48:04 <elliott> i could upload a new version of parsec right now
21:48:07 <Bike> this other packagey thing uses http without auth or anything and a recent kmc tweet made me think "wait that's a bad thing"
21:48:31 <elliott> the thing with hackage is like
21:48:37 <elliott> you can't even secure it like distro stuff
21:48:45 <elliott> because that involves trusting your distro people
21:49:00 <elliott> with hackage the problem is that you... don't trust anyone you're getting the code from
21:49:15 <Bike> look maybe i meant cabal or ruby gems or whatever, it could be anything
21:49:57 <elliott> it's true of rubygems too, it's true of all systems like this that aren't "actual package managers"
21:50:56 <elliott> i mean you can still improve the security under the assumption that you trust the maintainers of the packages being installed
21:51:07 <elliott> it's just that that is basically never the case, is all I'm saying
21:51:54 <Bike> so i shouldn't care that i'm getting unsigned tarballs
21:52:23 <elliott> well i guess it's still the case that you trust a random MITMer less than a random package maintainer
21:52:37 <elliott> but that is probably because you trust a random package maintainer too much (generic "you")
21:53:00 <kmc> hacked by chinese
21:53:35 <kmc> one reason I use Debian is that they actually care about this shit
21:53:44 <kmc> damn kids these days
21:55:00 <kmc> http://www.aeonmagazine.com/living-together/james-somers-web-developer-money/ has lots of complaining about kids these days
21:56:01 <elliott> kmc: care enough to break you know what
21:57:37 <elliott> but it does speak something in favour of low-"tampering" distros
21:58:11 <kmc> it's not 100% debian's fault though
21:58:15 <kmc> but partially
21:59:48 <elliott> yeah, the original openssl code sucked
21:59:56 <elliott> but as i understand it, all of openssl's code sucks
22:00:16 <elliott> so you can't have a security model that relies on any of openssl's code not sucking
22:00:33 <Bike> can we have a security model based on nothing working ever
22:02:58 <Bike> 'cos i see all this security research and then apparently a distro had shitty keys for two years and no one noticed?
22:03:57 <nooodl> COMBINING DOUBLE ACUTE ACCENT
22:03:57 <nooodl> WHITE SQUARE WITH UPPER LEFT QUADRANT
22:03:57 <nooodl> FULLWIDTH VERTICAL LINE
22:03:57 <nooodl> FISH CAKE WITH SWIRL DESIGN
22:03:57 <nooodl> LATIN LETTER VOICED LARYNGEAL SPIRANT
22:04:40 <Bike> please rephrase your unicode character names in the form of a limerick
22:06:00 <nooodl> it doesn't flow that well, and you could easiliy achieve that by placing multiple characters on one verse
22:07:05 <nooodl> "LATIN LETTER VOICED LARYNGEAL SPIRANT" is a very acceptable limerick verse if you don't pronounce the /i/
22:08:07 <Bike> isn't it pronounced lair-in-gee-el
22:08:46 <nooodl> you'd have to pronounce it as "lair-in-jull"
22:09:18 <Bike> that's not too much of a stretch
22:09:52 <nooodl> apparently "laryngal [ləˈrɪŋgəl]" is an accepted alternate form
22:09:59 <nooodl> but that's not what it says in the codepoints!
22:11:53 <Bike> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data TOP SECRET//NOFORN: best classification?
22:12:57 <kmc> no fornication
22:13:16 <nooodl> this one is very good:
22:13:17 <nooodl> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN
22:13:17 <nooodl> MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN
22:13:17 <nooodl> VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT
22:13:17 <nooodl> NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
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22:13:47 <Bike> that's beautiful
22:14:10 <kmc> as I've observed before, KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT would be a good name for a band
22:14:35 <shachaf> what about 2FCE KANGXI RADICAL DRUM
22:14:39 <shachaf> that would be a good name for a bad band
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22:16:31 <nooodl> (how many of those characters display correctly for you)
22:16:43 <shachaf> they're kind of overlapping
22:18:04 <nooodl> i wanna see the full thing...
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22:18:21 <Bike> Can you do other forms of poetry?
22:18:52 <Bike> hard mode: haiku, with cutting and seasonal words
22:19:00 <kmc> what's cutting
22:19:18 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kireji
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22:20:23 <Bike> basically haiku are more complicated than 5-7-5 (if you're an angry traditionalist japanese poet)
22:20:41 <kmc> when i grow up i want to be an angry traditionalist japanese poet
22:21:48 <nooodl> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:22:27 <nooodl> Bike: btw do you see my kireji
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22:22:53 <Bike> well you just picked one out of the wikipedia article
22:22:58 <Bike> nonetheless, awesome
22:23:13 <Bike> SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW works nicely as a zen reference
22:23:37 -!- kmc has set topic: Snowman without snow. | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric |.
22:23:47 <nooodl> i'm so amazed SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW exists
22:23:50 <kmc> what's the kirenji there
22:24:25 <Bike> "ya" is a kireji, as is the character named
22:24:25 <nooodl> because や was used as a kireji apparently
22:24:27 <shachaf> Hmm, 3316 SQUARE KIROMEETORU [㌖]
22:24:32 <kmc> wait doesn't that have.......... two seasonal references
22:24:47 <Bike> no way it's all autumn
22:24:49 <nooodl> "without snow" though imo thats clearly autumn
22:25:07 <kmc> the snowman is actually made of mochi
22:25:20 -!- Gregor has set topic: Slenderman without slender. | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric |.
22:25:31 <shachaf> These transliterated units are weird.
22:25:53 -!- nooodl has set topic: MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric |.
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22:26:57 -!- Bike has set topic: 🀨や⛄ | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
22:28:14 <shachaf> these syllable requirements are not compatible with my style
22:28:33 <shachaf> my style includes RIGHTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN ABOVE LEFTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN
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22:30:26 <shachaf> 2A94 GREATER-THAN ABOVE SLANTED EQUAL ABOVE LESS-THAN ABOVE SLANTED EQUAL [⪔]
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22:32:35 <Bike> maybe there's some meter you can make that fit
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22:38:44 <tswett> Hm. Gréater thán abóve slánted équal abóve léss-than abóve slánted équal.
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22:38:58 <tswett> / - / - / / - / - - / / - - / / - / -
22:39:02 <Bike> i linked the wikipedia article.
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23:10:30 <HackEgo> 274) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 308) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I becom
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23:37:34 <Sgeo> I utterly despise Apple after the events of today.
23:38:43 <Sgeo> Wanted to see why a web page wasn't working on iPhone. Look for information on how to get a web console up. DIscover that on iOS 6, you need to use Safari.. version 6. Which is unavailable for windows
23:38:51 <Sgeo> So, to debug web pages on iOS 6, you need a Mac.
23:43:15 <kmc> that and they've been running a NSA backdoor in their servers for a year
23:44:15 <kmc> but so has everyone else http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data
23:48:24 <shachaf> You need Apple equipment to develop things for Apple equipment? Doesn't sound so unusual.
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23:53:15 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-administration-releases-nations-phone-record,32712/
23:54:30 <Sgeo> shachaf, but needing X-brand equipment to develop for a different piece of X-brand equipment is kind of sucky. Although typical for Apple.
23:55:11 <elliott> Fiora: oh btw, i saw that game of life post in the logs, really cool
23:55:22 <shachaf> elliott: http://nineties.github.io/category-seminar/
23:55:29 <shachaf> lrn some category theory hth
23:56:12 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that there is some kind of us national security process for giving us citizens/companies gagging orders that they're forbidden from revealing the existence of; maybe those companies all got one.
23:56:25 <shachaf> being such an active tumblr user, you should follow that yourself
23:56:31 <Bike> they're called national security letters
23:57:05 <elliott> oerjan: there was a great guardian report relating to that
23:57:26 <Bike> oh, hey, «On March 14, 2013, Judge Susan Illston of Federal District Court in San Francisco struck down the law establishing NSLs, writing that the prohibition on disclosure of receipt of such an order made the statute “impermissibly overbroad” under the First Amendment»
23:57:53 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/12/guardian-gagged-from-reporting-parliament
23:58:07 <elliott> literally the entire story is "we can't tell you a thing"
23:58:10 <oerjan> some sense has been used
23:58:16 <oerjan> elliott: ah the uk version?
23:58:16 <elliott> The Guardian is also forbidden from telling its readers why the paper is prevented – for the first time in memory – from reporting parliament. Legal obstacles, which cannot be identified, involve proceedings, which cannot be mentioned, on behalf of a client who must remain secret.
23:59:00 <oerjan> elliott: well, at least they're allowed to tell that there _exists_ a prohibition.
00:00:34 <elliott> oerjan: presumably they plugged that hole and that's why we don't hear about it any more :tinfoil:
00:01:41 <kmc> i feel bad that i don't care more about massive government surveilance
00:02:40 <kmc> i personally don't have anything to hide, but i like living in a free democratic society and not one where (say) journalists are imprisoned arbitrarily based on secret surveillance
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00:03:20 <shachaf> how do you know you like it
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00:07:36 <Fiora> elliott: oh, thanks! I hope it made sense to someone who a) wasn't me and b) wasn't bike who followed along as I poked at the code
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00:16:38 <oerjan> Bike: why are you stalking Fiora while she pokes at code please stop immediately hth
00:17:49 <oerjan> see what happens when you don't logread.
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00:17:59 <shachaf> 17:07 <Fiora> elliott: oh, thanks! I hope it made sense to someone who a) wasn't me and b) wasn't bike who followed along as I poked at the code
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00:18:15 <Bike> glad we had this talk
00:18:27 <Fiora> bike was the one who suggested the life thing to begin with <.<
00:18:31 <Fiora> and we like, talked about hashlife and stuff
00:18:34 <Fiora> and he explained hashlife to me
00:18:58 <shachaf> hashlife? i think kmc is our expert on that (drugz joke)
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00:19:37 <Bike> so, a given game of life is going to have a lot of repetitious space, for example huge empty areas
00:20:02 <oerjan> Fiora: i hope you are not assuming i am serious. (ever.)
00:20:51 <Bike> uh, which technical details
00:21:22 <Fiora> basically you store life as a quadtree structure and take advantage of the fact that a block N spaces away from another block can't affect it for N time iterations? like the speed of light thing
00:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover> mm, so wait, do you work out how a given causally closed region evolves over <stepsize> generations then just iterate that?
00:22:47 <oerjan> life isn't a circle but a quadtree, check
00:22:52 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: not quite
00:23:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: each region of space 2^n across has an center 2^(n-1) width area that can be simulated 2^(n-2) steps ahead without reference to any other 2^n block
00:23:51 <madbr> I think I've figured why the pentium2 dominated and still dominates despite having such a low instruction-per-cycle count (4, 3 in older versions... the pentium 1 could do 2)
00:23:58 <madbr> speculative load/store
00:24:21 <Bike> i don't know if what you do is "iterat[ing] that" exactly, it's more like just frustrums in space time (band name etc)
00:24:45 <Bike> if you want 2^(n-3) or whatever ahead you can take the future of the future, yeah
00:25:01 <Fiora> doesn't nearly everything have speculative load-store nowadays?
00:25:17 <Fiora> oh. I guess I really only know x86 -_-
00:25:34 <madbr> not stuff like power6 (in order!)
00:25:36 <Fiora> I remember a thing in the optimization guides even about problems caused by too many cancelled/failed speculative loads and how to deal with them
00:25:40 <Fiora> and like how big the penalties are and stuff
00:26:22 <madbr> working on this design and memory aliasing is the big, big problem
00:26:59 <shachaf> Bike: have you considered moving to california
00:27:04 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: rather than iterating exactly it's more like you can go deeper and deeper into the future within a region while restricting the size of that future
00:27:31 <madbr> like, split branching (different iterations going different ways of a branch) is another problem but that's fixable
00:28:31 <madbr> memory aliasing is much worse and unless compilers are very good at guessing what can't alias I'm going to have to have some sort of software anti-alias or else compilers will never output optimized code
00:29:23 <madbr> which means I'd go from 2 memory opcodes (load, store) to 7 (load, load-lock, load-check, store, store-unlock, lock, unlock)
00:30:01 <madbr> plus probably having to save/load the state of the antialias buffer on interrupts (unless the interrupt handler doesn't use antialias)
00:32:00 <madbr> obviously this takes a dump on my instruction set design, which I'm trying to keep simple (ie I'm ending up with an almost perfect copy of mips :( )
00:33:01 <madbr> need to figure out a load/store antialias mechanism that isn't heinous
00:37:07 <madbr> memory access is so awful on CPU designs, it's probably the main thing that's holding back instructions-per-cycle
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00:38:41 <madbr> if it weren't for that there would be no need for GPUs and every game wouldn't all look the same
00:39:05 <elliott> shachaf: help why did you version me
00:39:21 <shachaf> elliott: i might ask you the same question
00:40:05 <Sgeo> "Obama endorses herbal supplements"
00:40:30 <Sgeo> Seems like that could turn people away
00:40:31 <Fiora> elliott: oh, you're back, did you get my message...?
00:40:34 <Sgeo> Some people anyway
00:43:36 <elliott> once i figured out that the handwritten "lut" was a "lut" (i am awful at reading handwriting, always)
00:44:01 <elliott> also it might just be my browser but the first line shows as "(Or, “how I made Life 84 times faster, with )" here
00:44:26 <shachaf> i kept thinking "lut" was like "lub"
00:44:26 <kmc> yeah for me as well
00:44:40 <kmc> i really like the fish shaped script l
00:44:45 <Fiora> oops. going to fix that
00:44:51 <kmc> I think I picked up a fondness for it while hand-writing physics homeworks or something
00:45:11 <Fiora> sorry for my crappy mousewriting :p
00:45:22 <Fiora> (is that a good word for it? handwriting with a mouse? XD)
00:45:22 <kmc> oh, I was actually going to ask if you had a drawing tablet
00:45:34 <Fiora> I have one, but I scribbed those in free time at work <.<
00:45:36 <kmc> cause it's pretty smooth
00:46:16 <kmc> i should read the article a second time and focus on details more
00:46:29 <Fiora> I like it too. it's easier to tell apart from an I I think
00:46:34 <Fiora> especially with handwriting where you don't have serifs
00:46:45 <Fiora> (and it looks pretty)
00:46:53 <shachaf> i write the variable l that way too
00:47:03 <shachaf> mostly because my l is otherwise indistinguishable from a 1
00:47:05 <kmc> yeah I use it (and have seen it used) in LaTeX too
00:47:19 <kmc> i write a 1 with a big flag and base
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00:54:33 <kmc> Fiora: hm so I'm trying to understand this http://media.tumblr.com/5da179ea25622b1cfe2c5beb0136babd/tumblr_inline_mnxxj1SBUP1qz4rgp.png
00:55:18 <kmc> what's the type of lut[x]?
00:55:41 <kmc> it's a vector of 8 bytes, each one a cell count?
00:56:09 <Fiora> it's a vector of 8 4-bit values, but when adding it the corner case could cause the values to overflow to 5 bits
00:56:21 <Fiora> so we just expand it to 8 bits per value, so each entry is a 64-bit (8x8bit)
00:56:42 <Fiora> (we'd probably have to do that anyways since pshufb takes 8-bit arguments)
00:57:11 <kmc> so when you say "= (E<<3) + (A+...+I)", that's the equation for each of those 8 counts?
00:57:18 <Fiora> Yeah, that's the idea
00:57:25 <kmc> for the respective A,...,I making up that neighborhood
00:57:36 <Fiora> so we get 8 of those with 3 lookups, basically.
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00:59:00 <Fiora> sorry, that one wasn't that clear, it kind of omits the whole simd thing of "we're actually doing this eight times"
00:59:26 <kmc> ah i see, so there's one set of LUTs that goes from cell rows to sums + current cell, and another LUT that goes from those back to new cell rows
00:59:43 <Fiora> Yeah, the last one is just 16 entries though.
00:59:53 <kmc> and you have to truncate to 4 bits for the second step, but that works out because the elements that alias happen to have the same value
00:59:56 <kmc> convenient :)
00:59:59 <Fiora> so I kind of feel like it's a different thing, since the other LUTs are 16 kilobytes XD
01:00:09 <Fiora> yup, that was a total accident by the way
01:00:13 <Fiora> that was not smartness
01:00:21 <Fiora> that was "oops totally overlooked that oh wait it works"
01:00:58 <kmc> did you profile the actual cache misses in this code?
01:01:44 <Fiora> I didn't do any profiling, but I think this should basically fit in cache?
01:02:00 <Fiora> it's 16 kilobytes of lookup table + the life board, I guess
01:02:10 <Fiora> so like I guess it'll overflow a bit but not too much?
01:02:27 <Fiora> it'd probably be pretty easy to profile though
01:02:39 <kmc> on linux you can use 'perf' to count cache misses
01:02:41 <kmc> don't know about windows
01:02:55 <Fiora> yeah, I use perf sometimes, I was just kind of lazy and didn't feel like copying it over to linux ^^;
01:03:07 <Fiora> I... guess I could do that now? XD
01:03:23 <shachaf> Your code compiles under x86_64-linux-gnu!
01:03:57 <Fiora> it's basically horrific code, like, I tuned the inner loop size for... what happened to be the size gcc would happily unroll at -O3 -_-
01:04:23 <kmc> that seems to be a fine heuristic
01:04:57 <shachaf> oprofile has some good profiling things
01:05:32 <Fiora> huh. gcc complains about aliasing in 4.8 @_@ I wonder why, the life board is uint8_t and it should be okay to dereference that as uint32_t
01:05:36 <Fiora> I guess it might just be wrong? :<
01:07:13 <kmc> it's safe because char* is exempt from strict aliasing rules?
01:07:35 <Fiora> I think so? I thought you could access anything as char and Some Other Type
01:08:12 <kmc> yeah I'm reading now that char and unsigned char are equivalent for this purpose, as well
01:08:18 <kmc> and uint8_t should be a typedef for unsigned char
01:08:35 <kmc> does the gcc warning give any more information?
01:09:34 <Fiora> Um... okay so... perf -e L1-dcache-load-misses I guess
01:09:59 <Fiora> it says there's... 820 events... 86.46% in the kernel... 8.93% in "fast"... 1.62% in "slow"
01:10:32 <Fiora> "life.c: In function ‘update_board_fast’:
01:10:33 <Fiora> life.c:99:9: warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasi
01:10:35 <Fiora> ng rules [-Wstrict-aliasing] uintptr_t line1 = ((*(uint32_t*)&LIFE_PACKED(x-1, 0)) >> 3) & 0x3ff0; ^"
01:13:41 <shachaf> Sgeo: https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/342326443193282560
01:14:15 <kmc> does carmack know about rust
01:14:47 <Sgeo> (Different tweet) "For reliability, I would take a GC'd and memory safe dynamic language over strong typing in C/C++, but it isn't too much to ask for both!"
01:15:20 <elliott> biased against ada's "strong typing" after reading about it having different types for indices into different arrays
01:15:30 <Sgeo> Actually, C and C++'s static typing kind of sucks
01:15:38 <kmc> if all goes well i will be a professional Rust programmer soon :)
01:15:41 <elliott> which (the source said and) struck me as missing the point
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01:16:33 <Fiora> I remember using perf was really frustrating in general because I had to like, manually look up all the event codes in the intel handbook
01:16:45 <elliott> kmc should sneak me into mozilla, I am pretty short so we could just pose as one really tall person like in films
01:16:54 <Fiora> and it didn't seem to work with the precise events so they all had that thing where the results lag the instruction that actually caused it >_<
01:17:04 <Fiora> so you'd see a bunch of cache misses 30 lines after the thing that missed the cache
01:17:05 <kmc> elliott: i'm already really tall person :/
01:17:10 <kmc> Fiora: dang
01:17:13 <elliott> kmc: just say u had a growing spurt
01:17:26 <shachaf> Fiora: Yes, that's annoying.
01:17:40 <Fiora> it was kinda useful? but like it took a lot of poking and guessing
01:17:49 <shachaf> elliott: but what if kmc talks to people who aren't fools
01:18:01 <kmc> who is the greater fool
01:18:06 <Fiora> kmc's tall, he can just like, hide you inside of his trenchcoat
01:18:24 <elliott> a question I have never considered before today
01:18:47 <kmc> i've considered many times buying a trenchcoat
01:18:47 <elliott> i can start owning one if it's needed for operation mozilla
01:18:58 <shachaf> trenchcoat ownership is required for joining this channel
01:18:58 <kmc> elliott: you could also, like, apply to work at mozilla through the usual channels
01:19:07 * Fiora doesn't have one either
01:19:10 <elliott> kmc: that sounds kind of hard
01:19:30 <shachaf> kmc: i heard you have to know someone on the inside for them to care about your application........
01:19:44 <elliott> kmc: also I'm not sure a 17 year old w/o any relevant qualifications is in mozilla's "demographic"
01:19:45 <Bike> i thought i had a trenchcoat but it turned out to be a sport jacket sitting on another sport jacket's shoulders. very disappointing
01:19:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: if you think about it, california is basically strathclyde
01:20:02 <elliott> both unknowable. both eternal. both terrifying
01:20:18 <Bike> elliott: it's kind of weird that the only 17-year-old loser programmer i caan think of got hired by mozilla
01:20:20 <Fiora> qualifications: genius, from hexham, possibly cute
01:20:44 * Bike notes "possibly cute" on his resume
01:21:01 <shachaf> i can confirm that elliott is possibly cute
01:21:19 <kmc> i used to be a 17-year-old loser programmer
01:21:24 <kmc> now i am a 25-year-old winner programmer?
01:21:26 <Fiora> then you turned 18?
01:21:41 <Fiora> I-I didn't mean that as a burn!
01:22:28 <shachaf> maybe kmc turned winner before turning 18
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01:22:37 <shachaf> i had a coworker who was 17 for a while
01:22:48 <Fiora> I think I was 17 once
01:22:51 <Fiora> I don't remember it much though
01:22:51 <shachaf> now he goes to caltech!!!! "kmc's future past self??"
01:23:17 <kmc> i went to caltech when i was 16 tho
01:23:24 <Fiora> kmc really is a genius
01:23:32 <kmc> only a little
01:23:33 <shachaf> kmc: he only went when he was 19 i think
01:23:40 <Bike> i know way too many motherfuckers who attended college early by which i mean: any
01:23:52 <kmc> too many motherfuckers in motherfucking college
01:23:59 <shachaf> Bike: you know me to balance it out!! hth
01:23:59 <Bike> get out of college!!
01:24:04 <Fiora> I... I attended when I was 17... I don't think it counts as early though because I didn't skip any high school
01:24:09 <Bike> shachaf: i also know myself
01:24:11 <kmc> i didn't skip any high school, only middle school
01:24:17 <elliott> 02:20:18 <Bike> elliott: it's kind of weird that the only 17-year-old loser programmer i caan think of got hired by mozilla
01:24:21 <Bike> Fiora: well so did i but that's just because of a clerical weirdness
01:24:22 <kmc> because middle school was beyond worthless
01:24:23 <Fiora> I skipped like um... a little bit of kindergarten I think
01:24:29 <Fiora> I don't remember >_<
01:24:29 <elliott> Bike: doing wonders for my self-esteem here!
01:24:44 <Bike> elliott: i dunno, bbeing jwz would be pretty cool.
01:24:50 <Bike> for example, he got the fuck out of that business
01:24:52 <elliott> 02:20:20 <Fiora> qualifications: genius, from hexham, possibly cute
01:24:59 <elliott> Fiora: who gave you this confidential information
01:25:12 <elliott> my own worst enemy.............
01:25:16 <kmc> did jwz work at netscape when he was 17
01:25:18 <kmc> is that the joke here
01:25:31 <Bike> he worked for netscape without having a degree
01:25:55 <Bike> am i kawaii? uguu
01:26:00 <kmc> he got out of the software industry and into the industry of cleaning up puke, dealing with flaky event promoters, and being harassed by the cops 24/7
01:26:09 <kmc> big step up imo
01:26:33 <elliott> i think i had like several opportunities to skip huge amounts of early school
01:26:45 <elliott> but turned them down because i didn't really know what was going on
01:26:54 <elliott> which is a bit annoying in retrospect
01:26:55 <Fiora> Bike: you can borrow some of my moe !
01:26:56 <Bike> good now you're not a huge nerd like kmc
01:27:05 <shachaf> elliott: how can you skip yourself
01:27:10 <Bike> Fiora: uh excuse you i ooze "the bish"
01:27:16 <kmc> Bike: have you read the DNA Lounge blog
01:27:24 <kmc> it's fairly entertaining
01:27:30 <Bike> i liked the fire department saga
01:27:37 <kmc> if you start at the beginning it's like 2 years of him bitching about every aspect of construction
01:27:50 <elliott> jwz seems like a nice guy, i mean as far as cynical jerks go
01:27:53 <kmc> with occasional neat technical interludes about electrical systems, or how they pump the beer through those big tubes
01:27:56 <Fiora> Bike: yes, you and your floofy hair
01:28:40 <Bike> elliott: it helps that he posts stupid youtube videos and such
01:29:37 <kmc> http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2001/01/juice2.html
01:30:07 <kmc> seven tubes of beer, one of antifreeze
01:30:11 <kmc> don't mess up the splice
01:31:25 <elliott> so, on to the crises of modern living
01:31:32 <elliott> i am using a different os than i normally do
01:31:56 <Bike> good package manager
01:31:59 <elliott> they display in full colour
01:32:29 <Bike> installation success!! [KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT]
01:32:34 <elliott> i think my whole worldview got destroyed and reconstructed from the ground up when i saw the package manager on my "other system" spontaneously render a mug of beer through my terminal
01:33:01 <Bike> i believe that was the original idea behind project MKULTRA as well
01:33:06 <kmc> is this Homebrew?
01:33:13 <kmc> it must be
01:33:38 <kmc> more like homebro
01:33:56 <elliott> if the package manager didn't have cutesy thematic reasons to choose a mug of beer of all things I think I might have just turned off the computer and moved to mexico
01:34:08 <kmc> no computers in mexico
01:34:24 <elliott> leave my whole life behind, start a new one with the single goal of avoiding all emoji reproduction devices
01:34:36 <elliott> kmc: are the homebrew developers bad too......
01:34:50 <elliott> i already hate'em because they rejected my MLton package for a bad reason years ago
01:34:51 <kmc> probably not really
01:35:02 <elliott> take that, people I don't know!!!!
01:35:28 <shachaf> <homebrew developers> we love you, elliott
01:35:29 <kmc> they override CFLAGS on every package with -Os because they read somewhere that this makes the code smaller and just as fast as -O2
01:35:36 <shachaf> <homebrew developers> we miss you at school
01:35:43 <shachaf> <homebrew developers> do you think i could -- help you?
01:35:47 <kmc> and they didn't bother to test this empirically or to determine whether it's logically possible from an understanding of computer science
01:35:52 <elliott> kmc: right i knew they did the overriding compiler flags globally thing
01:36:15 <kmc> also I'm told that they have lots of special case hacks for particular packages in the homebrew core, in order to make the 'recipes' for those packages look nice and 'elegant'
01:36:19 <elliott> but i figure, this is os x, everything is lawless and probably nothing is actually integrated as well as it seems and everything is a black box
01:36:40 <kmc> so, why are you using os x again?
01:36:58 <elliott> because it would be a pain to use my main computer
01:37:15 <elliott> also it's technically worse than this one in basically every conceivable way except for having a bigger screen and running xmonad
01:39:19 <Fiora> kmc: so like I threw a bit more profiling at it and it looks like it's a little latency-bound on the pshufb+pmovmskb+store bit, which is kind of unsurprising I guess
01:39:47 <Fiora> at least I think that's what "stalled-cycles-backend" means?
01:39:59 <Fiora> when it has nothing to execute so the backend stalls
01:40:03 <Fiora> but I might be wrong
01:41:00 <kmc> 'backend' is, like, the box that hands out uops to functional units, or something?
01:41:51 <Fiora> I think "frontend" is like the instruction decoder/dispatch
01:41:54 <Fiora> and "backend" is execution?
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01:42:16 <Fiora> so a frontend stall I think means "nothing to decode, the instruction queue is full and the backend is busy"
01:42:22 <Fiora> and backend means "nothing to execute" ?
01:42:37 <Fiora> which I guess would mean... "I can't grab something off the uop queue this cycle" or something
01:42:41 <Fiora> I have no idea >_<
01:42:56 <Fiora> I could maybe look up that manual again... <.<
01:44:03 <shachaf> SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW is such a great codepoint.
01:57:44 <shachaf> kmc: What's a good Unicode codepoint to represent mempty?
01:57:57 <shachaf> > foldMap NLeaf (S.fromList [1,2,3,4])
01:57:59 <kappabot> (((mempty * 1) * mempty) * 2) * ((mempty * 3) * ((mempty * 4) * mempty))
01:58:04 <elliott> kmc: more OS X stories: clicked from the homebrew FAQ to a stack overflow question about setting paths so that GUI applications see the installed command-line stuff; it recommends setting up a shell script to launch at startup that runs an emacs lisp(!) script that works out the paths and shells out to launchctl
01:58:08 <kmc> Fiora: would it make sense to interleave two copies of the computation using disjoint sets of xmm registers
01:58:21 <elliott> it literally has no particular reason to be using elisp. it's just using elisp as a scripting language. holy shit
01:58:32 <kmc> would that improve utilization of the execution units?
01:58:46 <kmc> elliott: lool
01:59:00 <kmc> this is just the idea of someone on SO right
01:59:02 <Bike> "aren't you supposed to use Guile now"
01:59:12 <elliott> well the FAQ recommends the answer!!
01:59:14 <elliott> (find-file "~/.MacOSX/environment.plist")
01:59:14 <elliott> (setq start (search-forward "<dict>\n"))
01:59:14 <elliott> (search-forward "</dict>")
01:59:19 <elliott> (delete-region start (point))
01:59:22 <elliott> this is not how you are meant to do scripting tasks. help
01:59:53 <Bike> is it also using regexps for xml
02:00:37 <kmc> esr approved
02:01:18 <elliott> all i want to do is use proof general in emacs
02:01:38 <Bike> maybe you need that elisp script
02:02:00 <mnoqy> does macos not play nice with using proof general in emacs
02:02:19 <elliott> mnoqy: it's more homebrew i think
02:02:29 <mnoqy> have you tried agda-mode
02:02:33 <elliott> emacs can't find coqtop & i'm not sure why
02:03:31 <elliott> mnoqy: do you know where proof general looks for executables
02:04:02 <elliott> the emacs exec-path executable doesn't contain /usr/local/bin
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02:04:59 <mnoqy> is that where homebrew puts stuff
02:05:12 <elliott> it also chowns /usr/local to your user
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02:09:01 <elliott> kmc: hey what do you call the two functions of an isomorphism
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02:10:02 <Sgeo> static vs dynamic typing debate is boring. More fun is whether or not static analysis is important
02:10:07 <Sgeo> Racket vs Kernel
02:12:02 <Bike> we need static analysis done dynamically obviously
02:12:16 <mnoqy> elliott: "thisaway" and "thattaway". alt an isomorphism is just a morphism -with- an inverse--of course you'll be including the inverse as part of the evidence it has one but just a matter of framing the thought and names
02:12:45 <mnoqy> Bike: what does that mean
02:15:02 <elliott> mnoqy: btw is there a nice way to get all the accessors of a record to have their record argument implicit
02:16:15 <shachaf> "hey did u know you can have a morphism which is an epimorphism and a monomorphism but not an isomorphism................................"
02:20:06 <Sgeo> So, I have a prgmr account
02:20:10 <Sgeo> Need to figure out what to do with it
02:20:38 <mnoqy> shouldn't you have figured that out before bothering to get the account
02:20:47 <kmc> that's not the Sgeo way
02:21:14 <Sgeo> I had a few ideas, but not sure how well they would work out
02:21:22 <Sgeo> Quassel is apparently a memory hog??
02:21:34 <kmc> how much ram do you have
02:22:33 <elliott> mnoqy: hey wheres decidable defined
02:22:39 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/70dd6d342b3cfa171257ae5f5db630eb/tumblr_mmfer8mZZc1s11g07o1_500.png pictured: sgeo
02:23:02 <shachaf> @ty foldMap NLeaf -- best function
02:23:03 <kappabot> forall (t :: * -> *) a. Foldable t => t a -> Nonoid a
02:23:54 <Sgeo> Dammit "I love ... they're so easy" has no 'm's
02:24:27 <shachaf> mnoqy: don t help elliott help me
02:24:29 <kmc> kappabot eh
02:24:32 <mnoqy> elliott: yeah im suffering from that joke too. we all are
02:24:49 <kappabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
02:24:56 <kmc> @listchans
02:24:56 <kappabot> #esoteric #haskell #haskell-blah #haskell-lens #scannedinavian weird#
02:25:01 <kmc> what is weird#
02:25:06 <shachaf> mnoqy: help me write Traversable t => NLeaf b -> t a -> t b..............................................
02:25:14 <kmc> is #scannedinavian the shapr personal channel
02:25:16 <Sgeo> I bet there's a right-to-left mark
02:25:16 <mnoqy> elliott: which decidable are you looking for theres like 2 and idk if one of them is even explicitly defined
02:25:23 <kmc> also what happened to lambdabot
02:25:28 <elliott> mnoqy: the decidable P := P \/ ~P one
02:25:35 <shachaf> weird# is /query with $PERSON hth
02:25:44 <shachaf> i was going to put a name in but i couldn't think of anyone i wanted to call weird
02:25:54 <mnoqy> elliott: Logic.Decidable cant you look at the stdlib page for like 1s
02:25:56 <shachaf> i don't really like insulting people or being mean to them
02:26:29 <mnoqy> itd take less time than bothering me about it!
02:26:49 <elliott> mnoqy: i have looking at the stdlib page for like 1s-itis.....
02:27:00 <mnoqy> maybe u should take the pills
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02:52:13 <shachaf> > nonoid $ M.fromList [(1,1),(2,2)]
02:52:23 <shachaf> > > renoid ((mempty <> N 'a') <> ((mempty <> N 'b') <> mempty)) (M.fromList [(1,1),(2,2)])
02:52:25 <kappabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `>'
02:52:26 <shachaf> > renoid ((mempty <> N 'a') <> ((mempty <> N 'b') <> mempty)) (M.fromList [(1,1),(2,2)])
02:52:28 <kappabot> fromList *Exception: Renoid (<*>): invalid structure (expected NAppend)
02:53:53 <shachaf> I broke the Applicative laws by defining fmap = liftA!
02:54:13 <shachaf> > renoid ((mempty <> N 'a') <> ((mempty <> N 'b') <> mempty)) (M.fromList [(1,1),(2,2)])
02:54:46 <kappabot> forall (t :: * -> *) b a. Traversable t => Nonoid b -> t a -> t b
02:55:10 <shachaf> Er, I mean: I broke the Applicative laws. Therefore fmap = liftA was invalid.
02:55:52 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-zeCXlFPjk so i guess we can confirm that shachaf is cute
02:56:42 <shachaf> i'm a dog????????????????????
02:56:52 <shachaf> i'd rather be uncute than be a dog
02:57:04 <kmc> even a cool lawbreaking dog?
02:57:10 <kmc> that runs around a golf course
02:57:17 <shachaf> kmc: are you talking about achewood now
02:57:20 <kmc> that dog is so happy
02:57:26 <kmc> no i'm talking about the video that Bike linked!!!!!!
02:57:34 <shachaf> not watching dog videos hth
02:57:59 <kappabot> Did YOU find a DIGITAL WATCH in YOUR box of VELVEETA?
02:58:29 <kmc> this video is adorable
02:58:49 <Bike> he's so excited to destroy the moral fabric of society
02:59:39 <Sgeo> I should look into icecast streaming my .midis
02:59:42 <kmc> i think the point of dogs is that they're so happy all the time for no reason
02:59:48 <kmc> at least some dogs?
02:59:56 <kmc> it makes one happy just to be around such a creature
03:00:05 <kmc> 'might not work if they could talk'
03:00:25 <Bike> or if you read Where The Red Fern Grows too many times
03:00:32 <shachaf> kmc: you should read raymond smullyan's things....................
03:00:36 <shachaf> he talks about dogs and things
03:00:50 <shachaf> he even has an answer to "Does a dog have buddha nature?"
03:01:26 <kmc> glad that's settled
03:01:38 <Bike> cool, now i don't need to behead my disciple
03:02:52 <kmc> Fiora: I think the pseudocode assembly is slightly hard to follow; I don't know what line0[0] means exactly
03:03:06 <kmc> but the actual code is nice and readable! (once I found a 7z extracter :)
03:03:48 <elliott> kmc: you should use deco!!
03:03:52 <elliott> it's what the hip kids use to extract archives
03:03:55 <Bike> i didn't even know i had a 7z extractor but there's 7za for some reason
03:04:12 <Bike> it has the highest compression ratio, according to man. good format!!
03:04:28 <kmc> according to man and beast
03:04:44 <Bike> beast's manuals are pretty unreliable tbh
03:04:55 <kmc> BEAST and CRIME
03:07:42 <olsner> 7z is pretty crappy, except for the clever deflate compression that's able to make compatible zip files smaller
03:10:38 <olsner> (it's probably good at other kinds of compression too, but other programs can also do that)
03:15:29 <shachaf> kmc: I need an *alphanumeric* character to represent mempty.
03:17:32 <Bike> Why does it need to be alphanumeric, out of curiosity
03:17:53 <olsner> so that it is allowed as a haskell identifier I guess
03:18:38 <kappabot> 'h' ∙ ('e' ∙ ('l' ∙ ('l' ∙ ('o' ∙ ø))))
03:18:53 <kmc> hönan agda
03:19:12 <shachaf> > renoid ('h' ∙ ('e' ∙ ('l' ∙ ('l' ∙ ('o' ∙ ø))))) "eliot"
03:19:13 <kappabot> Couldn't match expected type `L.Nonoid b0'
03:19:33 <shachaf> Should I add Ns everywhere?
03:19:54 <kappabot> N 'h' ∙ (N 'e' ∙ (N 'l' ∙ (N 'l' ∙ (N 'o' ∙ ø))))
03:20:15 <shachaf> > nonoid [Just 1, Nothing]
03:20:23 <shachaf> I guess I need to get my precedence right.
03:20:28 <shachaf> > nonoid [Just 1, Nothing]
03:20:38 <shachaf> > nonoid [Just 1, Nothing]
03:20:43 <shachaf> > nonoid [Just 1, Nothing]
03:21:43 <shachaf> > nonoid [Just 1, Nothing]
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03:29:02 <Fiora> kmc: okay I'll go try to define those more clearly!
03:29:21 <Sgeo> I keep seeing jconn join but have never seen it leave
03:29:38 <Bike> `pastelog jcon.*has left
03:30:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3708
03:30:46 <Bike> you win this round
03:31:20 <Fiora> kmc: okay, added an extra paragraph, I hope that makes slightly more sense
03:31:36 <Fiora> and um, sorry for using 7z
03:31:38 <Fiora> I'm a dumb windows user
03:31:39 <kmc> that was quick!
03:31:56 <kmc> yeah, this makes more sense now
03:32:49 <Fiora> sorry, I kind of did that *flail flail must quickly add and fix things* thing <.<
03:33:07 <shachaf> are you apologizing for being too quick
03:34:04 <Fiora> I.... I guess I am
03:34:10 <Fiora> I'm apologizing for rushing it.
03:35:07 <Sgeo> What's wrong with 7z?
03:35:20 <Fiora> linux seems to like xz and windows likes 7z?
03:35:32 <Bike> nothing really, it's just not common on linux
03:35:44 <Fiora> and they're like, two variants of the same thing
03:36:14 <shachaf> So why wouldn't you use 7z?
03:36:20 <shachaf> Since you use Windows and all.
03:38:03 <Fiora> um... because I'm sending things to linux users I guess? :< I don't know
03:39:53 <kmc> it took about 2 seconds to install a 7z decompressor so, no worries
03:43:41 <shachaf> now when you need 7z and are pressed for time, you'll already have it
03:44:57 <olsner> e.g. when terrorists invade and the only vial of antidote is 7z compressed
03:53:40 <shachaf> > let! a = undefined in ()
03:54:04 <copumpkin> [23:53:37] <shachaf> OK, this isn't the channel for misleading syntax.
03:54:18 <mnoqy> shachaf: bang patterns?
03:54:32 <shachaf> mnoqy: it's let-bang obviously hth
03:54:46 <olsner> copumpkin: was that from #haskell?
03:55:44 <olsner> obviously this *is* the channel for misleading syntax
03:56:26 <shachaf> @let set! x y = y `seq` writeIORef x y
03:56:32 <shachaf> @let set!x y = y `seq` writeIORef x y
03:56:44 <shachaf> @ty let set! x y = y `seq` writeIORef x y in ()
03:57:13 <Bike> i don't get the problem with "let a = undefined in ()"?
03:57:32 <shachaf> > let set! x y = "hi" in ()
03:57:55 <Bike> doesn't that just...
03:58:01 <Bike> > let set! x y = "hi" in set! 4 5
03:58:02 <kappabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Arr.Array i0 e0'
03:58:15 <Bike> ok well i don't know anything
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05:51:35 <shachaf> "The defense of this practice offered by Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, who as chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee is supposed to be preventing this sort of overreaching, was absurd. She said on Thursday that the authorities need this information in case someone might become a terrorist in the future."
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07:38:53 <HackEgo> rntz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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11:32:59 <hagb4rd> how are things going oklodroog?
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11:34:04 <oklopol> we are finishing a 40 page paper on categories; i still don't know the definition of a monad, and i barely understand adjoint functors.
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11:34:13 <hagb4rd> yes i'm doing good.. made some decicions i pushed forward too long
11:34:33 <hagb4rd> oh don't want to point that out
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11:57:59 <ThePoster32> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
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12:41:28 <oklopol> [14:57:48] <ThePoster32> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
12:42:06 <oklopol> in case someone here wants to take someone offline friends.
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12:50:08 <oklopol> okay i'm going to take offline friends
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13:01:58 <boily> @tell oerjan WHACK!
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13:06:17 <ThePoster62> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
13:06:17 <ThePoster62> http://ibooter.us || http://ibooter.info Join us !
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13:17:39 <Phantom__Hoover> i should stop reading this but i can't and i continue to have this overwhelming urge to punch things
13:18:32 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, imo read phantom-hoover.tumblr.com hth
13:19:03 <Taneb> i'm secretly fizzie
13:28:59 <mnoqy> i dont read "the oatmeal"
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13:39:47 <elliott> Taneb: afaik, that never happened
13:40:12 <Taneb> I seem to recall being there when it did?
13:40:33 <Taneb> But saying that I sometimes insert myself into stories
13:40:51 <elliott> you might be thinking of the time when people fed a troll for ~10 minutes and they said they'd "learn haskell" and then never came back
13:41:05 <elliott> and then paraded this as somehow some kind of good way to deal with trolls
13:41:20 <elliott> hoo boy, new esolang "LOLScript"
13:41:29 <elliott> It is based off of the Lua scripting language and is similar to LOLCODE, though with more recent memes and stuff.
13:41:46 <mnoqy> thhanks for informing me i'll check it out
13:42:03 <Taneb> If he never came back, isn't that the definition of a good way of dealing with trolls?
13:42:09 <elliott> I like the idea of there being new revisions of the LOLCode standard adjusted to handle new memes
13:42:09 <Taneb> Maybe not the best way, but...
13:42:20 <elliott> Taneb: no because they occupied the channel for ages first
13:42:36 <elliott> the very first thing they said was obviously bannable, so...
13:42:53 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: replying to a statement made in another channel to avoid derailing the topic!!
13:43:11 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, dunno, it never happened
13:43:42 <Taneb> elliott, I stand corrected
13:43:42 <Deewiant> Phantom__Hoover: 07.16:39:23 Taneb | Remember the time there was a troll in here and he ended up learning Haskell?
13:44:02 <mnoqy> urgh, lolscript is bad
13:44:08 <Taneb> I am in SO MANY CHANNELS it's scary
13:44:32 <elliott> homotopy type theory is so weird
13:44:59 <Phantom__Hoover> i'm pretty sure homotopy is ants walking around spheres and suc
13:45:17 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, we are all nought but ants walking around spheres
13:45:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: it relates the type theory equality to homotopy
13:45:59 <Taneb> elliott, weird arcane pseudogeometry weird?
13:46:07 <Taneb> Problem Sleuth weird?
13:46:19 <Taneb> There are many kinds of weird
13:46:20 <Phantom__Hoover> remember that guy on /r/math who was talking about homotopy type theory
13:46:29 <Phantom__Hoover> and you were all like "oh well what does he know about constructivism"
13:47:03 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: like you have a type I
13:47:34 <elliott> and I-rec : forall P (a b : P), a = b -> I -> P
13:47:45 <elliott> where I-rec P a b H zero = a
13:48:15 <elliott> and this is somehow not a pointless waste of time because = represents ~paths~
13:48:49 <elliott> kmc: did you know you're a troll
13:58:40 <elliott> now you'll encourage people to do it the next time too
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14:03:41 <ThePoster62> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
14:03:42 <ThePoster62> http://ibooter.us || http://ibooter.info Join us !
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14:06:29 <nooodl_> p.s. remember visual befunge
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14:08:53 <Vorpal> Strange, my RPi just rebooted by itself about an hour ago. Before I was home.
14:09:28 <Vorpal> There is nothing of note in the logs either
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14:39:59 <oerjan> eek it's a drone everybody duck!
14:39:59 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:44:23 <oerjan> <elliott> mnoqy: btw is there a nice way to get all the accessors of a record to have their record argument implicit <-- that's what .. wildcards are for hth
14:44:46 <oerjan> (which i know you already hate, making this rather paradoxical)
14:45:22 <oerjan> unless this isn't haskell. i suppose it could be coq or something.
14:47:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> "hey did u know you can have a morphism which is an epimorphism and a monomorphism but not an isomorphism................................" <-- yes
14:47:45 <oerjan> not in Set, of course.
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14:50:33 <ThePoster60> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
14:50:34 <ThePoster60> http://ibooter.us || http://ibooter.info Join us !
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14:50:56 <elliott> oerjan: you sshould ban 212.150.184.98 hth
14:51:43 <oerjan> has this happened before?
14:53:09 <coppro> will this happen again?
14:54:28 <oerjan> ooh the monoid example is so easy: "In the category of monoids, Mon, the inclusion map N → Z is a non-surjective epimorphism."
14:54:55 <oerjan> which is good since the topology example i was thinking of apparently is wrong
14:57:30 <oerjan> "It is a common mistake to believe that epimorphisms are either identical to surjections or that they are a better concept. Unfortunately this is rarely the case; epimorphisms can be very mysterious and have unexpected behavior. It is very difficult, for example, to classify all the epimorphisms of rings. In general, epimorphisms are their own unique concept, related to surjections but fundamentally different."
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15:01:27 <elliott> hmm, my down arrow key is not working perfectly.
15:01:50 <oerjan> it's just the down keeping you, man
15:02:55 <elliott> this is going to be a problem
15:05:39 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `NLeaf'
15:05:57 <oerjan> apparently it's a ver kappa thing
15:06:25 <oerjan> *+y i think my keys aren't working perfectly either
15:07:04 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: recalling lines on irc!
15:08:30 <elliott> great, the down arrow key is just... not responding at all
15:08:39 <elliott> why the fuck do the keyboard problems always happen to me
15:09:29 <elliott> oerjan: do you know how to go down in the irc line history in irssi...
15:09:32 <elliott> (withotu using down arrow)
15:12:47 <oerjan> /bind whateveryouwant down
15:13:34 <oerjan> actually there's a /bind down forwardhistory
15:14:22 <elliott> oerjan: except it's unbearable elsewhere too.
15:14:27 <elliott> like, choosing URL completinos
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15:14:45 <elliott> also, I still use arrow keys out of habit when editing files :(
15:15:46 <Taneb> elliott, you should always have at least 2 backup keyboards!
15:15:52 <oerjan> * /bind whateveryouwant key down
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15:27:33 <boily> nooodl_: please hold while we redirect your call... ♪
15:27:33 <lambdabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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15:38:58 <oerjan> <elliott> I like the idea of there being new revisions of the LOLCode standard adjusted to handle new memes <-- does it include the harlem shake twh
15:39:46 <oerjan> `learn twh would help.
15:39:50 <Taneb> I used to do the harlem shake, but ain't nobody got time for that
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15:47:09 <oerjan> Taneb: thx now i'm up to date
15:47:11 <boily> `? twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
15:47:13 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:47:19 <boily> `learn twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
15:47:47 <oerjan> `? misspellings of croissant
15:47:49 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:48:46 <oerjan> time for an apple, got to shake of these there darn doctors
15:53:22 <boily> let's do the haapple shake. *woob woob woob*
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16:02:07 <elliott> 'o;sfjklbe `p[eklvntzklgsm
16:02:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: [B: not found
16:02:09 <oerjan> did you do /bind space key down or something
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16:03:56 <oerjan> can you open the relevant setting file in an editor? actually open the editor and then the file, i guess
16:04:25 <elliott> i don't think there is such a file but i have downloaded some key remapping software that will maybe let me disable down key
16:05:50 <oerjan> i suppose this is somehow like writing without e, but worse
16:06:21 <coppro> elliott: you got spaces back!
16:07:00 <oerjan> oh so he did maybe i should pay attention
16:08:19 <oerjan> i wonder if someone has made puzzles based on most of your keyboard not working
16:09:35 <oerjan> say, having only the left half up to the "6" key
16:10:40 <oerjan> Taneb: how did you manage to press return twh
16:10:52 <Taneb> oerjan, I have at least two backup keyboards
16:11:15 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. (see also: d-modules)
16:12:05 <oerjan> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards. (see also: d-modules)
16:12:19 <oerjan> i felt this was important information.
16:12:23 <Taneb> (I actually do have two spare keyboards)
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16:12:57 <oerjan> i think this is important enough to stay in wisdom even if it is accurate.
16:13:07 <Taneb> (one's an old PS/2 keyboard because I can't edit BIOS settings with a USB one for some reason, and my PS/2 keyboard is really clacky)
16:16:21 <oerjan> his mind is going, he can feel it
16:17:11 <elliott> and i have a replacement down key
16:17:13 <elliott> in the form of shift-right
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16:27:58 <Koen_> problems with iour keiboard, again?
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17:02:31 <quintopia> i've started using egojsout as a js benchmark
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17:12:09 <ThePoster56> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
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17:16:55 <elliott> maybe i should report it in #freenode
17:17:33 <oerjan> i assumed it was consistent since elliott asked me to ban the ip hth
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17:19:50 <oerjan> no reverse lookup even on 212.0.0.0
17:20:06 <oerjan> can't be important then.
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17:21:54 <oerjan> elliott: did you report
17:22:08 <oerjan> is it showing up in #haskell as well?
17:22:43 <elliott> so i don't care enough to report :p
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19:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so having completed Gunpoint, the obvious question now is 'is it TC'
19:09:34 <oerjan> "In fact, the electric force trying to push the two protons in a helium nucleus apart is comparable to the weight of a truck!"
19:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> aren't the two protons in a helium atom in the same 'place'
19:14:15 <FreeFull> At least, not if I understand the Pauli Exclusion Principle right
19:14:40 <FreeFull> Hmm, unless there is something differing between the two protons other than position
19:14:59 <oerjan> they don't have exact positions anyway
19:15:50 <oerjan> i'm reading http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/the-known-forces-of-nature/the-strength-of-the-known-forces/ btw
19:17:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The symmetries of a helium nucleus have no translational components.
19:18:24 <Phantom_Hoover> (I've read that the nucleus is spherically symmetric, so that seems accurate.)
19:19:21 <oerjan> well i take it that means the protons have the same _average_ position, which because they're waves doesn't mean they cannot also have a non-zero average distance.
19:21:05 <oerjan> or rather, their combined state is a wave function in 6 dimensions or so.
19:22:16 <elliott> they are not allowed to exist now
19:22:51 <oerjan> and that's if you assume the forces are weak enough that you can do with only quantum mechanics, not full quantum field theory; the article mentions something about that.
19:24:46 <boily> elliott: I knew that atoms were Canadian at heart.
19:26:05 <elliott> oerjan: do you understand homotopy type theory
19:26:12 <Fiora> energy is force-over-distance; isn't part of the reason the "force" is so strong because it's over a super super short distance?
19:26:37 <oerjan> elliott: even worse than i understand quantum field theory.
19:26:50 <Fiora> so like, breaking apart the two protons still requires a microscopic amount of energy, even though the force is macroscopic?
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19:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, the strong force actually doesn't attenuate past a certain point
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19:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> if you have, like, a quark and an antiquark of complementary colour a metre apart in a vacuum they produce something like 10^5N of force
19:57:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the intranuclear forces do though because they're between bound quarks
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20:05:05 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: I thought if you pull them too far apart you just get quark-antiquark pairs?
20:05:26 <Fiora> so you can't actually pull them a meter away from each other really
20:06:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> they are pretty much constant beyond a certain distance, though
20:20:11 <nooodl_> guys http://i.imgur.com/X6XGqp8.png
20:33:22 <nooodl_> if you have pygame and wanna test this: http://bpaste.net/show/1pfyaHB9PS08lDoYRR2O/
20:33:48 <nooodl_> mind, it's very crashy at the moment.
20:34:21 <nooodl_> also the torus doesn't wrap yet...
20:35:44 <nooodl_> wait i'm a fucking idiot. it needs the graphics of course
20:36:07 <boily> File "chose.py", line 147
20:36:09 <boily> elif tile == 'add': bin_op(lambda a, b: a + b)
20:36:12 <boily> File "chose.py", line 35
20:36:14 <boily> def in_field((x, y)): return y < HEIGHT * 16
20:36:18 <boily> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
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20:36:28 <nooodl_> no just in general; it won't run without the thingies
20:37:10 <nooodl_> also im bad for pasting the wrong thing
20:38:23 <nooodl_> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15495351/visualbefunge.zip here
20:38:34 <nooodl_> boily: make sure you run it in python 2.7
20:38:55 <nooodl_> i think that second complaint is because python 3 removed the argument unpacking syntax
20:39:02 <nooodl_> (why did that happen???????)
20:39:22 <boily> the first complaint comes from python 2.7.5.
20:39:38 <boily> it chokes on the elif.
20:39:50 <nooodl_> yeah i've fixed that one now
20:41:14 <elliott> b/c pattern matching is too useful for guido
20:41:42 <nooodl_> and fucking, case statements, ugh
20:44:00 <elliott> case statements are pattern matching nooodl_!!
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20:44:07 <elliott> also sum types, I forgot sum types
20:44:44 <metasepia> Used to refer to that one previously mentioned.
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20:49:03 <boily> pyskellman, and his arch-nemesis, visualjavaman!
20:49:32 <nooodl_> if so i have some exciting interface things to explain!!
20:50:21 <boily> nooodl_: no can do. we're in a rush here, trying to buckle up patches for a release.
20:50:27 <boily> yeah for fun friday nights... :(
20:51:59 <boily> elliott: we're working on a [REDACTED] that will go in [REDACTED].
20:52:19 <elliott> boily: making me more curious is forbidden.
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21:00:13 <oerjan> elliott: well as you clearly see, they're making an SCP hth
21:00:40 <boily> oerjan: if only. for now, all it does it sit here and spew various error messages.
21:04:00 <oerjan> that's what you _think_ it does.
21:06:34 <boily> twist: I don't think.
21:06:51 <oerjan> that may be for the best.
21:09:50 -!- olsner has joined.
21:11:35 -!- olsner_ has joined.
21:12:46 <boily> olsner_ is olsner's evil goatee twin.
21:13:06 <olsner_> are there two of me? which one am I?
21:14:13 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:14:46 <boily> olsner_: I think the barred version of you is the only one left.
21:14:57 <boily> what have you done? which crime have you perpetrated? you monster!
21:15:06 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
21:18:16 <boily> and now you're evading law and impersonating an innocent bystander... what are the next unspeakable horrific limits you'll cross?
21:18:55 <olsner> I have done no such thing
21:19:46 <olsner> that olsner_ was horrible though
21:24:25 * boily wields his eviltwinon counter... *beep*... *beep*... *beep*... *BEEEEEEEEEEEP*!
21:25:11 <boily> the machine does not lie. obey the computer. please report to the nearest alpha-complex termination center. thanks for your gentle coöperation!
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21:25:49 <boily> no, not Taneb, olsner.
21:26:45 <oerjan> twist: we are _all_ evil twins.
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21:31:18 <boily> oerjan: speak for yourself. I'm a pure and chaste Canadian.
21:31:39 <oerjan> ok, all of us that _exist_ are evil twins.
21:33:00 <oerjan> i sense a flaw in the vowel recognition here
21:34:28 <HackEgo> Thanks, Dan Rather. Than Rather.
21:34:48 <elliott> what's the frequency, kenneth?
21:36:46 <oerjan> what's the vector, victor
21:37:43 <elliott> oh it's a reference to that film i haven't seen
21:38:04 <oerjan> isn't that like, everything.
21:38:11 <boily> http://youtu.be/50k_nl6Q4vs
21:38:29 <elliott> what isn't, like, everything?
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21:44:45 <HackEgo> 2013-06-07 03:39:53: <kmc> it took about 2 seconds to install a 7z decompressor so, no worries
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21:44:59 <shachaf> what time zone are you in HackEgo
21:45:52 <shachaf> imo `seen should use my time zone
21:46:05 <shachaf> alt. say "so and so many billion years ago"
21:47:04 <oerjan> itym "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" hth
21:47:50 <oerjan> shachaf is the reincarnation of either darth vader or jar-jar binks
21:48:14 <oerjan> `learn itym "i think you mean" hth
21:48:20 <boily> I'd go with jar-jar. more safe.
21:49:19 <boily> if I ever get the urge to punch it, jar-jar is more squishy. all these electronics are sharp and may cut my knuckles off.
22:01:56 <shachaf> kmc: look at http://shachaf.net/sel.html with firefox
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22:03:27 <kmc> 'applications of de bruijn sequences'
22:03:36 <shachaf> no de bruijn sequences necessary
22:03:53 <shachaf> a de bruijn sequence containing every possible n-character password would be p. big.......
22:04:08 <Fiora> what does it do in firefox?
22:04:42 <shachaf> It figures out your password as you search for it.
22:05:00 <Fiora> wow it breaks really badly when I try to select text
22:05:04 <Fiora> ... I think it crashed firefox :/
22:05:25 <Fiora> yeah, I had to kill it
22:05:48 <shachaf> Well, I didn't have to kill it.
22:05:55 <boily> my firefox must be special. it doesn't do much.
22:06:03 <shachaf> boily: Did you ^F-search for your password?
22:06:24 <boily> shachaf: I /-ed my password. I have pentadactyl :D
22:06:52 <elliott> shachaf: btw why does it use <pre>s weirdly
22:07:04 <boily> hey, I work at a linux promoting company, of course I'm a nerd.
22:07:32 <elliott> shachaf: well it does some weird thing turning it into <li>s???
22:07:53 <shachaf> the <li>s are inside a <ul>
22:08:05 <shachaf> and that's probably not actually necessary but i thought it was necessary before
22:08:22 <kmc> shachaf: you can probably do something adaptive to generate the text as the user searches for it
22:08:51 <shachaf> kmc: Yep, I thought of that but didn't want to bother.
22:09:03 <shachaf> But it can look as if you're really finding passwords in the document.
22:09:29 <nooodl_> is it supposed to just display the thing i'm searching for at the top of the page
22:09:54 <kmc> shachaf: one idea i liked from Tangled Web is, you do something that invokes a scary confirmation dialog (e.g. downloading an exe, granting camera privileges) and then you pop up a browser window over the dialog, with a link right over the "confirm" button in the dialog
22:10:08 <kmc> and you extrapolate mouse movements to determine when the user is about to click the button
22:10:12 <kmc> and close the window just before they do
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22:10:21 <kmc> click the innocuous link, i mean
22:10:24 <Fiora> that's incredibly evil
22:10:40 <Fiora> isnt there also like, a thing wher eyou get someone to click a link by putting a frame above it but making the click go through it?
22:11:06 <kmc> well, I know of the reverse, where you put the real target in an invisible iframe floating over the innocuous link
22:11:08 <boily> Fiora: I tried that one with the fram. never managed to pull it off, sadly.
22:11:10 <kmc> that's clickjacking
22:11:14 <kmc> but probably you can do both
22:11:15 <shachaf> Hmm, I once found a nice instance of that but I don't think I can talk about it.
22:11:46 <kmc> also you can like... embed an iframe of the target site, size and scroll it so that only a tiny part of the target link is visible, and plop that within an innocuous link
22:12:05 <Fiora> kmc: could you do that by picking a word on the target site and plopping it in another site?
22:12:11 <kmc> I think so
22:12:16 <Fiora> like if you need a link that says "foo", find a link on the other site that says "foo", and iframe it
22:12:19 <Fiora> to make it look like your foo link
22:13:05 <elliott> "Click here for more information about phishing attempts that get you to Close your Bank Account"
22:13:18 <elliott> too bad it only works if they click the last four words
22:13:27 <elliott> that would be the lamest phish ever really
22:14:05 <kmc> Fiora: did you see http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/yahh/
22:14:16 <boily> elliott: all phishes are lame. that's the point.
22:14:30 <Bike> small screen discrimination!!
22:14:50 <elliott> Fiora: it's really great, try playing it for a few minutes
22:14:52 <Fiora> oh, it hides links under the asteroids
22:15:20 <Bike> https://twitter.com/PRISM_NSA
22:15:25 <elliott> it actually does something really clever with the links, not just making you click them
22:15:53 <kmc> some of the asteroids are links, and they're visible iff you've visited that site
22:15:55 <elliott> i think the guy who made it has a blog post explaining it? maybe kmc has a link
22:16:12 <Fiora> oh, so it's a way of seeing which sites you've visited in the past?
22:16:14 <kmc> http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2013/05/some-harmless-old-fashioned-fun-with-css.html
22:16:22 <kmc> if you play long enough it pops up an alert telling you :3
22:17:32 <Fiora> so all the other asteroids are black, and so they don't appear
22:17:37 <Fiora> but ones corresponding to sites you've visited show up
22:17:41 <Fiora> because you can adjust the color
22:17:45 <Fiora> and the "link" is a circle
22:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> so according to this thing i've visited playboy but not wikipedia
22:21:05 <boily> there is a disturbingly high number of mnoqy quotes in the learndb.
22:21:10 <Bike> why the hell would you visit playboy, there's so uch better porn out there
22:21:18 <Bike> bad imo, phantom
22:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> well as ais pointed out the articles are actually the only reason to read it these days
22:21:37 <kmc> playboy was an early open source mirror
22:22:42 <shachaf> elliott: There you go, no <li>s.
22:22:58 <elliott> now my esolangs.org mirror of it is outdated!
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22:24:00 <shachaf> Is setInterval(go, 0); or function go() { ...; setTimeout(go, 0); } better?
22:24:37 <kmc> the latter is more flexible
22:25:08 <shachaf> I mean with 0 specifically.
22:25:12 <shachaf> I suppose it doesn't matter.
22:25:28 <kmc> i'm not sure
22:26:50 <shachaf> I don't think there are selection events so I just loop.
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22:53:50 <kmc> i thought there are such events
22:53:52 <kmc> but not sure
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22:53:53 <ThePoster56> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
22:53:53 -!- ThePoster56 has left.
22:54:09 <elliott> I nominate kmc to report that bot in #freenode
22:54:45 <oerjan> seems it changed to a completely different ip range
22:54:46 <elliott> I disnominate Phantom_Hoover from joining other IRC channels for any purpose ever :P
22:54:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
22:55:14 <elliott> however, opping me is fine
22:55:22 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b ThePoster*!*@*.
22:55:32 <Bike> @tell ThePoster56 normally i avoid complaining about grammar but that was incomprehensible!! how do you expect successful advertising with such a poor presentation
22:55:48 <oerjan> Bike: the last number part changes
22:56:00 <Bike> oerjan i'm.. not expecting them to actually read it...
22:56:41 <elliott> Bike. now lambdabot has to remember that FOREVER.
22:57:08 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!~COS@*.
22:57:15 <Bike> and what a memory it shall be.
22:57:32 <elliott> oerjan: um how about banning ThePoster* instead
22:57:38 <elliott> the hostname was LOL before
22:57:43 <oerjan> elliott: um i already did?
22:57:44 <elliott> in fact, why didn't I ask you to do that originally...
22:57:58 <elliott> i am quite blind, apparently :/
22:58:18 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@62.233.41.*.
22:58:18 <Bike> do we have *.aq banned
22:58:59 <Bike> nothing much to do in that freaking desert but make brainfuck derivatives
22:59:01 <Bike> you almost pity them
22:59:22 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
22:59:24 <Fiora> http://www.mcmurdodryvalleys.aq/
22:59:26 <Bike> but then they come back around with "hey!! i encoded [] as penguins!!!" and you remember why they're banned
22:59:37 <elliott> bike just wants to make sure i can't tell you guys about our fun adventures when we go to antarctica
23:00:04 <Bike> the dry valleys are the second most lifeless place i can think of on earth
23:00:24 <Bike> the biggest living things there are nematodes, closely followed by elliott (HEIGHT JOKE)
23:00:50 <elliott> i think i got taller recently, preemptive rip height jokes
23:01:02 <Fiora> oh come on he's taller than me <.<
23:01:15 <Bike> #1 is the polar plateau because there like aren't even microorganisms
23:02:02 <shachaf> but are there microörganisms
23:02:29 <Fiora> Bike: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/AntarcticaDomeCSnow.jpg wooooow
23:02:33 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:03:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:03:51 <Bike> Fiora: basically
23:04:17 <elliott> barren lifeless flat hellscapes are the best
23:04:34 <Fiora> also bike did you get bored making height jokes about me so it has to be about elliott now
23:04:38 <elliott> and that's why i live in hexham
23:04:43 <Fiora> not that I'm complaining but
23:05:01 <Bike> the only comparable picture i can think of is http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Northern_Chukotka.JPG but i bet there are nematodes
23:05:12 <Bike> Fiora: elliott is worse than you, so
23:09:22 <shachaf> hey you should make height jokes about me
23:09:42 <shachaf> make height jokes about kmc
23:09:58 <Fiora> worse than me at what? :<
23:10:25 <Bike> just in general
23:12:00 <shachaf> kmc: if you were a commercial gps you would be so off right now
23:12:43 <Fiora> I don't think he's worse than me...
23:19:07 <Phantom__Hoover> you're from america, with its boundless reclaimed meat and corn syrup
23:19:38 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott has lived on the measly, shrivelled mosses that grow on the scree from the coal mines
23:20:31 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: it is actually a moss mine, unfortunately the north ran out of coal
23:20:53 <Fiora> but why does this make him worse than me? or something
23:22:36 <Fiora> I..... I don't really get what you're imply but um okay
23:22:39 <Fiora> *what you're implying
23:22:56 <oerjan> Fiora: well look at the difference between north and south koreans
23:23:08 <shachaf> Fiora: i think this is still about height hth
23:23:16 <oerjan> the north ones don't have a source of protein, and so are short and evil
23:23:16 <Fiora> but I'm shorter than elliott...
23:23:54 <elliott> i should like actually measure how tall i am or something
23:23:55 <Phantom__Hoover> the measuring tapes in the north are shorter to save on tape costs
23:24:11 <elliott> given that i am in this weird indeterminate space between "uh I was short fairly recently" and "I guess I grew a little?"
23:24:26 <Fiora> well he said he used to be 5'2" or something and I don't think he's gotten shorter?
23:25:16 <oerjan> `frink 5 feet 2 inches -> m
23:25:22 <Phantom__Hoover> like i said, a northern foot is less than a california foot
23:25:25 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 48387/625000 (exactly 0.0774192) m^2 (area) \ Right side is: 1 m (length) \ Suggestion: divide left side by length \ or divide left side by area^(1/2) \ \ For help, type: units[length] \ or \ units[area] \ to list known units with
23:25:30 <oerjan> `frink 5 feet + 2 inches -> m
23:25:38 <HackEgo> 3937/2500 (exactly 1.5748)
23:26:05 <nooodl_> i wrote a unicode sonnet http://bpaste.net/show/olydVfuzIeXaGKTkVxlJ/
23:26:09 <nooodl_> it's not AS good but it's pretty good
23:26:17 <Sgeo> Isn't Apple stereotyped as being good at UI?
23:26:43 <Sgeo> What kind of brilliant UI decision is it to, if you accidentally press off the keyboard, erase everything that's been typed so far?
23:27:22 <shachaf> Are you sure it's a brilliant UI decision at all?
23:27:30 <shachaf> It sounds like it might not be brilliant, from the way you're talking.
23:27:57 <Sgeo> Maybe Apple isn't actually good at UI
23:28:01 <nooodl_> Traditionally, English poets employ iambic pentameter when writing sonnets,
23:28:04 <Sgeo> Or, at least, they're not perfect at UI
23:28:08 <Fiora> Phantom__Hoover: but I use meters
23:28:12 <Fiora> they don't change, do they? :<
23:28:19 <nooodl_> they're usually 14 verses long too!
23:28:40 <Phantom__Hoover> do you really think they can afford a metre of solid iridium-platinum alloy?
23:28:44 <nooodl_> nobody seems to agree on what rhyming scheme is most sonnet-y
23:28:48 <Fiora> That's the kilogram :<
23:29:07 <Fiora> ... I guess if the kilogram's smaller, that means I've lost weight? <.<
23:29:12 <elliott> the kilogram changing is the scariest thing on earth, imo
23:29:19 <Fiora> oh. was that before the whole speed of light meter thing?
23:29:44 <shachaf> nooodl_: imo write a pushking-style sonnet hth
23:29:56 <elliott> is civilisation v any good
23:31:18 <Fiora> elliott: it's really really addictive, there's good and bad things about it I guess but it's lots of fun?
23:31:24 <Fiora> I am eagerly awaiting the new expansion
23:31:40 <Fiora> and by awaiting I mean like, already preordered because firaxis owns me
23:31:41 <Phantom__Hoover> i guess it depends on whether you're judging it by the standard of grand strategy games or not
23:31:55 <elliott> I ask because apparently it is free for a weekend on steam
23:31:57 <Fiora> I don't think civ is really a grand strategy game, there's EU for that :p
23:31:59 <elliott> which I noticed solely by opening steam right now
23:32:08 <nooodl_> elliott: hello whats your steam
23:32:20 <elliott> P.S. my only Civilisation experience is watching nooodl_ play the original one while sleep deprived
23:32:47 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: uh this computer can run portal
23:32:52 <elliott> it probably can't run portal 2 very well
23:33:06 <mnoqy> free for a weekend as in you get it on weekend and then its free forever like with portal or does it stop being playable after the weekend
23:33:06 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, have you tried turning all the graphics sliders down
23:33:34 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: i haven't even tried installing it
23:33:40 <Fiora> I preorder a lot of games, um, is that bad
23:34:53 <Fiora> but like... I've... probably kind of lost at least like 200 hours to civ 5
23:34:54 <Phantom__Hoover> Fiora, well with digital distribution it's kind of weird? and i've seen it criticised a lot for being used as a vehicle for scummy business practices
23:34:56 <Fiora> maybe even more to civ 4
23:35:25 <Fiora> Phantom__Hoover: I guess? I know a lot of companies (at least ones I tend to preorder from like NISA, Atlus, Aksys, etc) use preorders to judge how many copies they should print
23:35:32 <Fiora> plus there's discounts and stuff
23:37:04 <Phantom__Hoover> seems a bit weird to project physical sales based on digital preorders, but that's just a nitpick
23:37:32 <Fiora> True, I guess I don't really do digital preorders for those... I don't know if they even offer them
23:37:51 <Fiora> I kind of tend to preorder things that I know I'll end up getting anyways
23:39:00 <kmc> weird to think about people who are still getting taller
23:41:00 <Fiora> I think I stopped getting taller about 9 years ago :/
23:41:38 <Phantom__Hoover> i'm pretty sure i stopped getting taller but i just don't know any more
23:41:50 <shachaf> have i stopped getting taller
23:42:08 <shachaf> kmc grew glasses since the last time i saw him
23:42:11 <shachaf> so i guess he's still growing
23:42:31 <kmc> growing / decaying
23:42:49 <shachaf> growing glasses, decaying eyes
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23:45:24 <Sgeo> kmc, here's a situation that Rebol can't handle nicely, but I don't think Kernal and Qoppa can handle it nicely either, you tell me:
23:45:27 <Fiora> I have glasses too... does that make me a cyborg?
23:45:32 -!- augur has joined.
23:45:50 <elliott> whoa I can become a cyborg if I get glasses?
23:46:13 <elliott> does anyone know how to ruin my eyesight, staring at a computer all day for most of my life doesn't seem to have worked
23:46:14 <Sgeo> Suppose you want an environment, that looks for set!s. Within this form that you're making, any symbols that are set! to are in their own scope, any that are not use the surrounding scope.
23:46:31 <elliott> or does it count if i get those fake glasses that don't actually do anything
23:46:48 <kmc> elliott: give it time
23:47:00 <Fiora> elliott: you can just get non-prescription ones, they're super cheap too
23:47:12 <Sgeo> That is, (context (print x) (set! x 0)) prints some kind of null value, no matter what the outside x is, but (context (print x)) prints the outside x
23:47:14 <Fiora> and they'll probably look cute on you! bonus
23:47:23 <Sgeo> Can you make such a thing in Kernel or Racket?
23:47:25 <mnoqy> get "google" glasses
23:47:32 <Sgeo> Erm, not Racket
23:47:35 <Sgeo> Kernel or Qoppa
23:48:24 <Fiora> eeesh, if you have good vision don't waste it <_>
23:48:34 <Fiora> being basically blind isn't fun
23:49:10 <Bike> Sgeo: just literal (set! ...) forms? also i already hate this
23:49:12 <mnoqy> i, too, can close my eyes and go to sleep and then see even better thhings because imd reaming
23:49:28 <elliott> i've worn (other people's) strong glasses for laffs before
23:49:38 <elliott> looks pretty much like what i'd imagine bad eyesight looks like
23:49:48 <Sgeo> Bike, fwiw I'm describing something you can't do in Rebol nicely
23:49:56 <mnoqy> i've had opportunitys to wear "google" glasses but iv declined them
23:50:47 <Bike> Sgeo: what is that worth and to whom
23:51:07 <shachaf> elliott: what kind glasses
23:51:07 <elliott> ion: haha, did that make you do /last ndit?
23:51:16 <shachaf> which way do you want to ruin your eyes
23:51:16 <elliott> shachaf: the uh... the glassy kind
23:51:31 <shachaf> yes but do you want to be uh nearsighted or farsighted or what
23:51:31 <ion> elliott: ^Rndit
23:52:27 <Fiora> I don't think either is very fun...
23:53:24 <ion> I love the Finnish word huoh. It’s kinda like sigh, but with more despair. There is no happy huoh.
23:53:39 <mnoqy> nooodl_: why did i have the opportunity or why did i decline
23:54:20 <mnoqy> i know someone who has them & i didnt ask to wear them when he was passing them around for everyone to wear
23:54:58 <shachaf> i know someone who has them 2
23:55:02 <shachaf> can we be in a club 2gether
23:56:06 <nooodl_> wow you guys have cool friends ugh
23:56:20 <nooodl_> anyway i don't think i'd ever wear them seriously
23:56:29 <nooodl_> like how much of a douche would you look like. honestly
23:56:37 <ion> shachaf: Irssi sucks in some regards, Weechat sucks in other regards. I don’t really find either considerably better than the other.
23:56:37 <shachaf> nooodl_: hey mnoqy is cool maybe he can be your friend
23:56:39 <nooodl_> i really wanna try them out once though
23:56:42 <mnoqy> nooodl_: have you seen how dorky they look
23:56:46 <mnoqy> A: superemely dorky
23:57:00 <nooodl_> "glass, do this dumb thing for me"
23:57:03 <elliott> ion: what are you responding to
23:57:11 <ion> elliott: shachaf’s CTCP commands
23:58:02 <shachaf> i was all like CTCP ION HEY WHAT'S UP WHAT IRC CLIENT SHOULD I USE
23:58:16 <ion> shachaf: You should totally write an IRC client that doesn’t suck. Perhaps you could write it in @.
23:58:28 <shachaf> ion: Maybe you should use sorear's IRC client!
23:59:10 <shachaf> https://github.com/sorear/soric/blob/master/MANUAL
23:59:16 <shachaf> I guess he's not even in here.
23:59:36 <elliott> an IRC client in @ would be so easy. you could use monoids
00:00:14 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you a prolog interpreter
00:00:26 <Fiora> but wouldn't prolog say "no"?
00:00:37 <shachaf> Why would Prolog say "no"?
00:00:43 <Fiora> because like, it always says "No."
00:00:45 <HackEgo> 451) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
00:00:51 <shachaf> Uh, it usually says "yes".
00:00:53 <Fiora> or it gives a list of results. right?
00:01:01 <Fiora> or am I remembering that class wrong ._.
00:01:04 <ion> ITYM vapoure. FTFY, HTH.
00:01:27 <nooodl_> was it the one that was gonna have a new name once and then elliott'd replace @ by that in the entire logs
00:01:53 <ion> Its new name should be the full contents of the logs.
00:02:46 <nooodl_> oh shit i was going to bed
00:02:49 <Phantom__Hoover> (i loved learning prolog, but this may be because i did so when i was in that infamously terrible int 2 computing class)
00:02:59 <ion> <nooodl_> oh i was going to shit bed
00:03:23 <ion> phantom_hoover: Is it so easy?
00:03:38 <shachaf> ion: Aren't you tired of the monoids/easy thing?
00:04:21 <Phantom__Hoover> as i recall the greatest part of the prolog we did in class was getting the shitty mac application we were using to run
00:05:25 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:05:32 <ion> Was the int 2 computing class all about non-maskable interrupts?
00:06:38 <ion> shachaf: Aren’t you tired of the “aren’t you tired of the monoids/easy thing” thing?
00:07:09 <elliott> does prolog ever actually say yes
00:07:15 <shachaf> ion: Aren't you tired of the “unicode quotes” thing?
00:07:18 <elliott> oh maybe if you query a fact with no free variables?
00:07:29 <ion> shachaf: “very”
00:08:10 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:08:27 <ion> Sounds pleasant.
00:09:03 <Fiora> I really don't remember much, I just remember a lot of people in the class made "prolog says no" jokes constantly
00:09:11 <elliott> shachaf: that soric design resembles my IRC client design
00:09:16 <elliott> except I guess mine is more detailed
00:09:24 <elliott> but probably soric has more than the 0 SLOC I have
00:09:42 <shachaf> but you both stopped because writing an irc client is crazy?
00:09:45 <Phantom__Hoover> Fiora, was this before little britain and hence the inevitable 'computer says no' jokes
00:09:47 <ion> elliott: Sounds like your code is commented exceptionally well.
00:09:56 <shachaf> 'computer says no' jokes are bad
00:10:01 <ion> shachaf: no u
00:10:18 <ion> fiora: sudo watch it
00:10:50 * Fiora [sudo] password for fiora:
00:11:14 <elliott> what was that sudo exploit recently
00:11:24 <elliott> and can it be carried out over irc
00:11:28 * Fiora [sudo] password for fiora:
00:11:42 <ion> fiora: You should turn sudo insults on.
00:12:00 <ion> I asked the Ubuntu guys to do that by default and they said no. :-(
00:12:02 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
00:12:22 <mnoqy> sudo insults you when you get the password wrong
00:12:29 <elliott> lambdabot has the same feature
00:12:31 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
00:12:33 <shachaf> lambdabot does the same thing with the same insults
00:12:46 <elliott> hmm is sudo 1.7.4 vulnerable
00:12:48 <elliott> i bet it is and it's what i have
00:13:12 <oerjan> <elliott> does prolog ever actually say yes <-- maybe if you have a query with no variables?
00:13:19 <Fiora> shachaf: um... I'm not sure, but hugs are nice
00:13:22 <mnoqy> clearly just use su. clearly just use root. clearly.......
00:13:33 <shachaf> Fiora: did you know kmc is moving to san francisco
00:13:34 <oerjan> <elliott> oh maybe if you query a fact with no free variables? <-- hey stop that
00:13:38 <shachaf> Fiora: you should come too
00:13:47 <shachaf> i hugged kmc the other day and it was good
00:15:39 <mnoqy> im not a hugs guy, but why would you say that
00:16:06 <elliott> hm I vaguely recall the biggest problem with my IRC client design was timestamps in declarations from the client
00:16:10 <Sgeo> I assume Phantom__Hoover prefers GHCi
00:16:22 <elliott> in particular you could obligate the server to send a message in the past
00:16:33 <elliott> and would likely do so given any kind of network lag
00:16:42 <Fiora> closed timelike IRC curves?
00:17:37 <elliott> admittedly, the fact that my design allows for time travel probably should have made me more interested in implementing it rather than less
00:18:18 <Fiora> now you just have to use it to implement a PSPACE-capable computer XD
00:18:27 <Phantom__Hoover> http://edisontechcenter.org/tesladebunked.html it makes me inordinately pleased that someone is standing up for edison
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00:19:50 <Bike> i love debating the merits of 19th century nerds (no i don't)
00:20:33 <elliott> i love Bike (no i don't) <-- another sick burn
00:20:34 <Phantom__Hoover> eh, it's a microcosm of bigger problems in the public understanding of science
00:20:40 <shachaf> are you coming to our hug party in san francisco next month
00:20:50 <oerjan> i burn bikes (no i don't)
00:21:15 <shachaf> the joke is that i don't actually hate Bike
00:21:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: this doesn't really seem to stand up for edison so much as it puts down tesla
00:21:33 <oerjan> thx for explaining the joke tdh
00:21:39 <elliott> like the first pro-edison statement seems to be "he killed an elephant but they all did back then"
00:22:16 <oerjan> shachaf: throw off the chains of negation
00:23:28 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, I misread pleased as pissed
00:23:40 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see sel.html in firefox
00:24:39 <mnoqy> Sgeo: sounds like a thing that could happen, possibly
00:26:01 <elliott> "This definition means roughly that in order to obtain isinhab A, we start from A, we add paths between all pairs of elements of A, then paths between all pairs of the elements we just added, and so on transfinitely until it stabilizes, and then what we get is exactly isinhab A."
00:26:11 <elliott> update: homotopy type theory still "wack"
00:29:53 <Bike> more like homotopy WACK theory
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00:42:24 <ion> All at once, he felt a blinding jolt of pain shoot through his right arm. At first, he thought he pulled a muscle, but looking down, he quickly realized that the situation was much worse: "My wrist was completely snapped backwards," he says, "with my palm facing up in the air. I turned pale white."
00:42:26 <ion> While Portnoy continued to play, his drum tech immediately snapped the injured wrist back into place and shoved the drummer's arm into a bucket of ice. "I finished the song Rick Allen-style, just playing one handed," he says.
00:42:28 <ion> http://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/mike-portnoy-my-best-and-worst-gigs-ever-575982
00:43:23 <Bike> i assume that's a "best" gig
00:54:13 <Fiora> Bike: http://stereo.gsfc.nasa.gov/img/stereoimages/movies/transit_label_large.mov I'd say the sun is cool but well it's actually pretty hot
00:54:23 <Fiora> (a transit of the moon in front of the sun)
00:54:33 <Fiora> it's really cool how like, the cosmic rays show up on the video too
00:55:20 <Bike> what are my tax dollars going to if not teaching you how to put things on youtube, nasa!
00:56:48 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lovejoy-hi1a_srem_dec12_14.gif there's something really amazing about like, being able to see gravity in action like this, watching a comet accelerate into the sun's corona
00:56:54 <Bike> oh whoa that shit's wack
00:57:15 <Bike> really dope whoa
00:57:28 <Bike> no little comet you're going the wrong way!!
00:58:11 <Fiora> amazingly, it survived
00:58:36 <Fiora> it reached ~140k km from the sun's surface and spent an hour travelling through the corona
00:58:44 <Fiora> and went up to 0.2% the speed of light
00:58:59 <Bike> is that 140 km or 140 Mm?
00:59:37 <Bike> ah. we have SI prefixes for a reason you know :P
01:00:04 <Fiora> oh... I didn't know people like actually used megameter
01:00:17 <Bike> they do if they're nerds (gestures at self)
01:00:54 <Fiora> apparently it's the only sungrazer seen yet that didn't fragment or disappear
01:06:54 <elliott> 140 km from the sun's surface sounds pretty hot
01:06:59 <elliott> from a surviving as a comet p.o.v.
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01:07:32 <Bike> so does 140 Mm tbh
01:08:55 <Fiora> the corona is millions of degrees isn't it?
01:09:47 <oerjan> `frink 140 Mm -> light second
01:09:55 <HackEgo> 10000000/21413747 (approx. 0.4669897332774129)
01:10:18 <elliott> from what i know about the sun i can tell you that it's approximately really goddamn hot (celsius)
01:10:47 <oerjan> elliott: the corona is many times hotter than the surface hth
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01:11:01 <kmc> i guess tesla is like bacon
01:11:06 <elliott> oerjan: i think you need to set up your client to strip out "hth"
01:12:13 <Sgeo> Should I upload my massive but questionably legal MIDI collection to prgmr for processing, or just play with a (still questionably, but less so) legal thing of MIDIs that anyone can easily download from the AW website?
01:12:23 <Fiora> kmc: like, they're both things nerds seem to strangely like a lot and talk about?
01:12:30 <kmc> Sgeo, as your attorney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top
01:12:42 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, they're both pretty cool but the internet makes me want to hate them
01:13:44 <Sgeo> Using just nginx with lua plugin to build a website: Good idea or bad idea
01:14:47 <Bike> good idea. just do it
01:19:04 <elliott> bike...... sgeo isn't about the doing
01:23:35 <Phantom__Hoover> temperature doesn't mean much when they're that sparse though
01:24:08 <Phantom__Hoover> the atmosphere is... really hot at the altitude the iss orbits
01:25:22 <Fiora> I guess that's true
01:25:31 <Fiora> though the photon flux must be crazy
01:25:57 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:26:32 * Fiora throws things into google
01:26:35 <Fiora> (((1 AU) / (radius of the sun + (140 000 km)))^2) * ((1300 watts) per (square meter)) = 41 677 462.4 watts per (square meter)
01:28:42 <shachaf> kmc: how much do you cost as an attorney
01:28:55 <Fiora> yeah, I think wikipedia says they revised the original guesstimate as to its size
01:29:06 <Fiora> because the original size they thought wouldn't have survived the trip <.<
01:32:15 <Sgeo> Just killed xflux
01:32:21 <Sgeo> This shade of blue is blinding
01:42:00 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_diagram
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01:43:14 <Fiora> that sounds really hard
01:43:21 <Fiora> like, comets are really tiny
01:44:28 <Phantom__Hoover> if you have something coming in on a hyperbolic trajectory it probably wasn't previously in orbit around the sun
01:45:08 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
01:45:42 <oerjan> i suspect it would be hard to distinguish something coming from the oort cloud and something coming from entirely outside
01:45:57 <Fiora> Yeah... that sounds really hard, especially since we hardly know anything about the oort cloud I think
01:46:09 <Fiora> also oerjan that is amazing. /penguin diagrams/
01:46:11 <Fiora> I love the story behind them
01:47:55 <Phantom__Hoover> we know there aren't many major gravitational influences, surely?
01:48:36 <oerjan> there is other things in the oort cloud...
01:48:41 <Phantom__Hoover> (apropos of not very much, here is a video of asteroid discovery from 1980: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONUSP23cmAE
01:49:04 <oerjan> i suppose the main planets can be accounted for
01:49:20 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, yes but probably not much massive enough to put incoming comets on a hyperbolic trajectory?
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01:49:44 <Phantom__Hoover> it takes a pretty big perturbation to do that so far from the periapsis
01:50:19 <oerjan> what about a collision
01:50:22 <Phantom__Hoover> (there /have/ been hyperbolic comets observed, but they were probably put onto them by jupiter)
01:51:17 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: it turns out my system is not very good at rendering 4K video
01:52:43 <Fiora> "No comets with an eccentricity significantly greater than one have been observed,[47] so there are no confirmed observations of comets that are likely to have originated outside the Solar System. "
01:52:51 <Fiora> so we could tell, I think, that means?
01:53:23 <elliott> we aren't a popular comet tourist spot :(
01:53:24 <Fiora> "A rough calculation shows that there might be four hyperbolic comets per century,[50] within Jupiter's orbit, give or take one and perhaps two orders of magnitude."
01:53:30 <Fiora> that's a pretty huge error margin o_O
01:54:07 <elliott> "Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.", etc.
01:54:57 <oerjan> hm i was thinking wrongly, about parabolic orbits instead
01:55:24 <Phantom__Hoover> parabolic is to hyperbolic as circular is to elliptic, i think
01:55:59 <oerjan> well it's more that it's precisely on the boundary of the other two, and hard to distinguish from them
01:57:23 <elliott> googling to get the exact wording of that quote lead me to the beautifully 90s http://www.mindgazer.org/dontpanic/
02:02:48 <oerjan> they used up all the g's to make guillotines
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02:13:28 <Fiora> Bike: oh gosh http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OVERWEIGHT_SUBMARINE?SITE=NYMID&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
02:13:57 <Bike> ha i heard about that
02:14:31 <Bike> $14 million, damn
02:15:09 <elliott> that link doesn't work for me :(
02:16:34 <mnoqy> HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) -- A new, Spanish-designed submarine has a weighty problem: The vessel is more than 70 tons too heavy, and officials fear if it goes out to sea, it will not be able to surface.
02:16:38 <mnoqy> And a former Spanish official says the problem can be traced to a miscalculation - someone apparently put a decimal point in the wrong place.
02:16:41 <mnoqy> "It was a fatal mistake," said Rafael Bardaji, who until recently was director of the Office of Strategic Assessment at Spain's Defense Ministry.
02:18:28 <oerjan> an error of some magnitude
02:20:04 <shachaf> is the dual of an error an errand
02:20:08 <Fiora> the submarine must have eaten too much junk food
02:20:12 <Fiora> ... what would submarine junk food be?
02:21:30 <Fiora> I guess that makes sense
02:22:00 <Fiora> (that was terrible, I'm sorry -_-)
02:22:07 <kmc> i like that "until recently was director"
02:22:37 <shachaf> kmc: should i open a firefox bug
02:23:54 <shachaf> or is it more of a "core" bug you're the mozilla expert here
02:24:33 <oerjan> Fiora: that was nowhere near bad enough to apologize for imo. try harder next time.
02:24:34 <kmc> i don't knowchaf
02:24:44 <elliott> will kmc be obligated to switch browsers when he works at mozilla alt. does he use firefox already
02:24:49 <kmc> i use chrome now
02:24:55 <shachaf> elliott: when there's a servo browser...............maybe
02:24:59 <kmc> and i'll be working on the /new/ browser engine so until... yeah
02:25:07 <kmc> btw I got the offer paperwork today :D :D
02:25:38 <elliott> is there a distinct position of "working on the new browser in rust" vs. "working on rust"
02:25:40 <oerjan> i somewhat doubt spanish submarines are nuclear, anyway
02:27:14 <oerjan> kmc used to know how to program but then he got rusty
02:27:24 <shachaf> elliott: there is a distinct position but kmc would be the first person to have it or something like that
02:27:50 <Bike> oh, it's diesel electric.
02:27:51 <kmc> not first but one of the first
02:28:00 <kmc> most of the servo development to date has been by the rust people
02:28:06 <elliott> seems like you'd want your browser developers to be able to work on the language too
02:28:16 <elliott> maybe mozilla is open enough that they can just go ahead and do that anyway though
02:28:22 <kmc> they're both on github
02:28:24 <Sgeo> ....huh? Is Firefox being rewritten in Rust?
02:28:56 <kmc> Sgeo: yes, Mozilla is writing a new browser engine in Rust
02:28:56 <shachaf> kmc: you should get a #1 hand sign like the people in the onion cartoon
02:28:57 <Bike> yes.. that is what's happening.
02:28:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, but Mozilla is doing some browser development in Rust...
02:29:08 <kmc> currently the rendering engine
02:29:10 <pikhq> Principally as an experiment.
02:29:11 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/selling-america-short,32564/
02:29:19 <kmc> javascript and parsing and network and lots of other stuff are still C libraries
02:29:31 <pikhq> Could turn into a full Rust rewrite at some point.
02:29:32 <kmc> Sgeo: if your question is "will the new browser eventually be renamed to Firefox" then I don't know of any plans to do so
02:29:43 <kmc> they are pretty serious about it becoming a real product though
02:29:53 <pikhq> ATM it's more to drive development of Rust I think.
02:29:57 <kmc> there are now a bunch of Samsung employees working on Rust and Servo
02:30:03 <kmc> because Samsung thinks it will be a better mobile browser
02:30:04 <shachaf> then you can start thinking about calling it firefox
02:30:09 <pikhq> Having a non-trivial program in your new language helps a lot.
02:30:16 <elliott> kmc: should write your browser in @ instead
02:30:32 <kmc> pikhq: the two projects are symbiotic, you could just as well say that Servo is the resaon Rust exists
02:30:47 <shachaf> elliott: nothing is more secure than programs written in @
02:31:00 <shachaf> except maybe for denial of service attacks...................
02:31:19 <pikhq> I've got to give Rust props. I have no idea if it'll be *good*, but it is at least *interesting*.
02:31:24 <Sgeo> Someone should make a language where the empty program is the least secure program possible in the language.
02:31:41 <kmc> i nominate you Sgeo
02:31:49 <pikhq> And there's a real shortage of interesting serious languages.
02:32:02 <kmc> especially in the "C and C++ replacement" category
02:32:16 <shachaf> are you going to write programs in D/Rust now
02:32:25 <pikhq> It's telling that C is still the best language for that niche.
02:32:31 <kmc> Go is a "C replacement", in that it's a ploy aimed at people who still use C for applications development for no reason
02:33:28 <kmc> it's not really a serious replacement for OS kernels or latency-critical stuff
02:33:42 <Bike> browser kernels
02:34:01 <pikhq> OS kernel, in Go? Hell no.
02:34:03 <kmc> it's like Java but with even more limitations, and just enough tinge of the weird to make it acceptable to Real Programmers who look down on Java
02:34:24 <pikhq> It's also a profoundly mundane language.
02:34:31 <Bike> go more like went
02:34:49 <Sgeo> Go has built-in generics but no way to make your own, right?
02:35:44 <shachaf> so when are you moving here
02:35:47 <Sgeo> Amazon now tracks which videos you've watched!
02:35:57 <Sgeo> Or, well, displays it nicely
02:36:02 <Sgeo> I guess it has to have been tracking
02:36:05 <Bike> watched... on what...
02:36:13 <kmc> shachaf: I'm going to give them a start date of July 1 i think
02:36:34 <Sgeo> Bike, on Amazon
02:36:42 <Bike> amazon has videos?
02:37:01 <kmc> yep they sell streaming video
02:37:03 <elliott> i'll move to sf too "bandwagoning"
02:37:07 <kmc> or give you lots of things for free, with Prime
02:37:53 <elliott> doesn't sf cost $everything/mo
02:37:58 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/woe-is-euro,28491/
02:38:02 <shachaf> elliott: more than that hth
02:38:18 <elliott> ok but i don't have $everything
02:38:37 <Bike> but can you steal that much?
02:38:45 <elliott> god i love the kelly comics
02:38:58 <Bike> i wish kelly wasn't so accurate
02:39:36 <Fiora> amazon lets you remove things from your history though, right? I remember it had a thing
02:39:42 <Fiora> so you could make it ignore something for the purpose of suggesting stuff
02:39:55 <Bike> sorry amazon, i need you to forget all this horse porn. thanks
02:40:31 <Fiora> "I was looking at this product for the parody reviews, I don't actually want lots of random numbers ;_;"
02:40:42 <shachaf> elliott: you could move to epa
02:40:50 <shachaf> speaking of which i should move out of epa
02:41:31 <elliott> shachaf: i hear EPA has violence, violence, violence, violence, and thinly-veiled racism concealed behind questions about violence [source: quora]
02:41:42 <kmc> [source: I am a violent racist in EPA]
02:42:24 <elliott> Fiora: did you know RAND claims copyright on the random numbers in that book
02:42:44 <elliott> Fiora: http://hcoop.net/~ntk/random/
02:43:59 <Bike> i'm curious who would need this
02:44:22 <elliott> people who need digits... and fast
02:45:00 <Bike> i'd kind of like to see a court case about copyrighted random numbers, that would be interesting
02:47:42 <Fiora> I guess nowadays it's less necessary
02:48:06 <Bike> yeah i can't imagine anyone actually taking it to court, i'm just wondering how it would work out
02:52:30 <kmc> i think they had PRNGs back then, they just weren't very good
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02:53:00 <Bike> i like to imagine some confused RAND employee getting frustrated with Knuth's shitty prng
02:53:02 <kmc> computers were too slow to run a good one
02:58:03 <shachaf> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=880926
03:10:27 <kmc> oh dear, their bugzilla allows live html attachements that show up in bug880926.bugzilla.mozilla.org
03:10:52 <kmc> that's not great for security
03:10:54 <kmc> quite the 'meta bug'
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03:24:39 <kmc> shachaf: kappabot is wearing your cloak
03:24:45 <kmc> also how do I get a cloak
03:24:54 <Bike> kidnap an oper
03:25:13 <shachaf> at least that's how i got mine
03:25:15 <kmc> is tt the secret pope of freenode
03:25:26 <shachaf> he was just handin' them out
03:25:34 <elliott> kmc: you can just join #freenode
03:25:52 <elliott> not fashionable in the slightest
03:25:58 <elliott> maybe you can get a fancy "works at mozilla" cloak
03:26:15 <kmc> should i have a compose key for ꙮ
03:26:24 <kmc> should it be Multi_key o o o o o o o o
03:26:36 <shachaf> right now i have Multi_key o o bound to °
03:26:52 <kmc> right now i just use ISO 14755 Mode
03:26:59 <Bike> The laser beam activated pest trap system is then activated, with all three of them being zapped, leaving just tufts of hair on all of them. That beam also travels into outer space and hits a satellite, destroying it.
03:27:05 <shachaf> I use ctrl-shift-u a 6 6 e <space>
03:27:05 <kmc> press ctrl and shift at the same time in urxvt
03:27:20 <shachaf> And then what? Type the codepoint?
03:27:28 <kmc> whilst keeping them held down
03:27:55 <shachaf> You can also type other things conveniently by pressing ctrl-shift and then letting go and then pressing a key.
03:28:10 <kmc> yes, KEYCAP PICTURE INSERT MODE
03:28:19 <Bike> i've been wondering what that's for
03:28:35 <Bike> ⎈ doesn't look like ctrl but hey w/e
03:28:37 <shachaf> Bike: You can type other things conveniently by coming to San Francisco!
03:28:48 <Bike> why do you want me to come to san francisco
03:29:19 <shachaf> Bike: because how else can i say that all the cool people come to san francisco hth
03:29:39 <elliott> Bike: i think this is shachafs way of telling you you are cool
03:29:49 * Fiora isn't cool, so stays out of SF?
03:29:55 <Bike> "no, you're not cool, Bike"
03:29:59 <kmc> do you remember how old PC software used to come with a plastic sheet that fit around your keys and was labeled with the various functions for that software and color coded according to whether you should use them with shift, ctrl, etc?
03:30:21 <Bike> i;m missing out
03:30:23 <kmc> or maybe I just made that up just now
03:30:26 <kmc> not 100% sure
03:30:29 <elliott> kmc: i sort of remember that but i don't think i ever actually that
03:30:30 <kmc> quintopia: yes?
03:30:34 <Fiora> but I like my apartment here...
03:30:45 <shachaf> Gracenotes: kmc is moving here!
03:30:58 <quintopia> i need an iptables ruleset because mine got deleted. just the basic rules everyone has.
03:31:14 <Bike> i don't have any oops.
03:31:22 <kmc> don't have any cool iptables rules handy, sorry
03:31:35 <shachaf> maybe once you move to sf you'll have some......................
03:31:53 <shachaf> Fiora: But think of all the great friends you could make here!
03:32:04 <shachaf> There's a big friend shop in downtown SF where you can buy friends.
03:32:14 <Fiora> but I don't want to buy friends... that doesn't sound right
03:32:14 <Bike> that sounds incredibly convenient
03:32:22 <Bike> except i don't have money. way to discriminate.
03:32:29 <kmc> i'll be your friend for free Bike
03:32:31 <elliott> is this code speak for drugz
03:32:34 <shachaf> Fiora: Hey, I'm not the one who brought up friend shops.
03:32:39 <Bike> except are you a communist
03:32:43 <kmc> only a little
03:32:47 <elliott> kmc: do you buy "friends" from the "friend shop"
03:33:13 <Bike> my ol' friends hashy and methylenedioxymethamphetamine (he's swedish)
03:34:43 <Gracenotes> shachaf: it's not much good if bahaskell don't meet
03:34:46 <elliott> i know nothing about iptables
03:34:57 <shachaf> Gracenotes: bahaskell will meet
03:35:02 <Fiora> I'm not sure silicon valley friends sound very good either
03:35:34 <Fiora> Ididn't mean that as... bleh
03:35:36 <Gracenotes> at least it's not san fernando valley friends
03:35:46 <shachaf> Fiora: It's OK, we didn't take it that way.
03:35:48 <kmc> san francisco >>> silicon valley
03:36:19 <kmc> does Unicode have a codepoint for VERY MUCH GREATER THAN
03:36:20 <Bike> san francisco → silicon valley fyi
03:36:23 * Bike goes mad with power
03:36:28 <kmc> oh it's the one you efb
03:36:34 <kmc> but it doesn't render in my terminal THANKS A LOT, SCREEN
03:37:06 <shachaf> By the way tmux is broken too. :-( With certain emoji codepoints.
03:37:21 <kmc> is it actually tmux, or are you just lacking those in your locale
03:38:10 <shachaf> it works with ssh shachaf.net
03:38:11 <elliott> Fiora: (i was just kidding, btw)
03:38:13 <shachaf> but not with mosh shachaf.net
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03:38:19 <kmc> then it's probably the locale
03:38:37 <kmc> Bike: The San Francisco and San Jose Railroad
03:38:57 <shachaf> LANG etc. are en_US.UTF-8 both ways.
03:38:58 <kmc> those emoji aren't in the server-side locale, maybe?
03:39:02 <Fiora> I'm not very good at catching jokes
03:39:11 <kmc> we ought to merge one of the hardcoded wcwidth() implementations...
03:39:15 <kmc> then this won't happen
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03:39:58 <Fiora> 20:39 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with rahman0804
03:39:58 <Fiora> 20:39 <rahman0804> hy
03:39:58 <Fiora> 20:39 -!- rahman0804 [~rahman080@114.79.28.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:41:15 <kmc> cool someone put a better reference image on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
03:41:37 <shachaf> kmc: you already said that didn't you
03:41:49 <elliott> kmc should start a blog about multiocular o
03:41:56 <Bike> Fiora: the other day a stranger messaged me for a "normal chat" here it was weird
03:42:22 <shachaf> today someone walked up to me and asked if i was a "php coder"................
03:42:29 <shachaf> and then they asked about sql and perl
03:42:38 <shachaf> i decided not to be a php coder today
03:42:53 <shachaf> opened the door to adventure
03:43:00 <Fiora> Bike: I sometimes wish someone (not completely skeezy) would do that for once
03:43:02 <Fiora> it never happens though
03:43:13 <kmc> shachaf: walked up to you in person?
03:43:20 <Bike> maybe i can get you in touch with this person
03:43:24 <Bike> they weren't skeezy, weirdly
03:43:51 <Bike> eventually they left because they detected that i had no idea what was going on though
03:44:08 <kmc> shachaf: 'the bay area'
03:44:17 <kmc> where was this? and did they have some reason to think you were a PHP coder
03:44:33 <kmc> "a quiet young person within 50 miles of san francisco, he must be a PHP coder"
03:44:35 <elliott> totally gonna heck kmc's aim by asking him if he's a php coder if i ever see him irl
03:44:35 <shachaf> well i was using a computer at the time
03:44:47 <kmc> elliott: i have been paid to write PHP code
03:44:49 <kmc> it is my eternal shame
03:44:50 * Bike checks logs, finds that the person apparently PMed at least two other peopl in the channel
03:44:56 <Bike> kmc: blood money
03:45:08 <kmc> I've been trying to avoid general language bashing because it sucks so much, and I think my strategy for this is to just bash PHP
03:45:13 <kmc> because PHP really deserves it
03:45:15 <Bike> a normal person might be shamed by paying into violent diamond mines. but coders are special people
03:45:41 <kmc> Bike: how do you have logs of who someone else has PMed???
03:45:42 <kmc> are you NSA
03:45:44 <elliott> kmc: #haskell{,-blah} language circlejerks make me want to defend java to the death
03:45:45 <shachaf> kmc: you know what language makes for some really good bashing
03:45:48 <kmc> you have to tell me if you're NSA
03:45:49 <elliott> but not php because uh, it's php
03:46:07 <Bike> kmc: a couple "why are you PMing me" messages in the channel, also no i don't i'm under a reverse national security letter hth
03:46:13 <kmc> elliott: i used to defend Jafa in #haskell but usually in a kind of backhanded "it's great for lots of dumb people who aren't as smart as us" way which I eventually got sick of too
03:46:38 <Bike> i've gotten used to defending languages i don't like
03:46:38 <shachaf> I just make a no-language-bashing rule in #haskell
03:46:43 <shachaf> Unfortuantely I don't enforce it
03:46:46 <Bike> because language circlejerks are just that fucking boring
03:46:50 <kmc> shachaf: which language is it
03:46:52 <shachaf> And people always say it's just in good fun, so who cares, right?
03:46:55 <Fiora> kmc: is it just me or are language arguments/circlejerking/that kind of thing basically like the nerd equivalent of sports team arguments or something?
03:46:58 <elliott> kmc: i think i usually just tell people to shut up
03:47:05 <kmc> shachaf: looooool
03:47:08 <elliott> it seems like the most direct way to express the problem
03:47:08 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, could be
03:47:20 <Fiora> like, you're on a team, and you have to ~defend~ that team 'cause it's your team
03:47:26 <kmc> it sucks because I think in depth comparisons of languages are really interesting
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03:47:28 <Fiora> and your team is totes better than the other team
03:47:40 <Fiora> and gosh did you see those new APIs it got in the draft this year
03:47:42 <kmc> but the arguments usually avoid anything interesting or complex
03:47:45 <elliott> does this mean I get to wear @ merchandise
03:47:45 <kmc> Fiora: heh, yup
03:47:45 <Fiora> or something I really don't know sports
03:47:49 <Bike> like in #lisp there's lots of people going on about how elegant it is or whatever and i'm like can't you write some code instead of having a watered-down spiritual experience all over my irc
03:47:52 <elliott> because if so I am so down with this analogy
03:47:56 <Bike> elliott: @ is an exception; @ is life
03:47:56 <kmc> Bike: hahaha yes
03:48:02 <kmc> Bike: "if you think Lisp is great you should try acid"
03:48:09 <Bike> kmc: new go-to reply, thx
03:48:13 <kmc> i was given this advice about Haskell more or less
03:48:20 <elliott> does this mean I should try acid
03:48:26 <kmc> elliott: you should try acid eventually, yes
03:48:28 <kmc> everyone should
03:48:30 <Bike> maybe i'll act like a hardcore christian
03:48:31 <kmc> maybe wait until you're not 17
03:48:39 <Bike> you know what's more elegant than lisp? the book of enoch
03:48:43 <shachaf> when kmc moves to san francisco he can be my dealer
03:48:53 <kmc> what am i getting into...........
03:49:15 <shachaf> (the joke is you were already into those??????)
03:50:02 <elliott> kmc: so i should try acid in august, check
03:50:13 <Bike> wait, why does being 17 matter for acid
03:50:23 <shachaf> Bike: it's illegal when you're under 18 hth
03:50:30 <elliott> because kmc will face a longer sentence if i'm a minor
03:50:41 <elliott> the crime of suggesting drugz
03:52:12 <shachaf> kmc: Is there a name for the thing where you extract information a character at a time in a way that you couldn't do for an entire string, etc.?
03:52:24 <shachaf> It's like some timing attacks and so on but it's more general than that.
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03:53:32 <kmc> partial something oracle
03:55:01 <elliott> partial something oracle (technical term)
03:58:20 <kmc> i bet @tqbf knows
04:04:04 <shachaf> mnoqy: they're having a nose competition in #perl6
04:04:50 <shachaf> 21:01 <+yoleaux> U+2FD0 KANGXI RADICAL NOSE [So] (⿐)
04:05:12 <elliott> i can't believe larry wall actually talks on irc
04:05:23 <Bike> kangxi radical wall
04:05:42 <Bike> erotic roleplay
04:05:55 <kmc> compute fibonacci numbers
04:06:18 <mnoqy> erotic roleplay would involve talking wouldnt it
04:06:26 <kmc> depends on your fetish
04:06:26 <mnoqy> .......in a certain sense of talking
04:06:34 <mnoqy> the "silence fetish"
04:06:53 <mnoqy> fetish whereby you get off by watching other people engage in erotic roleplay?
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04:12:38 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
04:13:11 <shachaf> i bet you live in san francisco "you're just that cool"
04:13:31 <kappabot> actually i live in fremont, ca
04:24:22 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-12-16.txt:05:48:56: <kmc> maybe i should get a tattoo of multiocular o
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04:57:47 <Sgeo> A YouTube video just reminded me of a game I used to suck at
04:58:22 <Sgeo> It was ... some kind of CA fight thing
04:58:25 <Sgeo> Available on Linux
05:03:13 <Sgeo> http://www.gnu.org/software/liquidwar6/
05:03:21 <Sgeo> The guy in the video has a ... voice
05:04:01 <Bike> I too have a voice. It is my curse, and my blessing.
05:04:27 <Fiora> /msg chanserv voice #esoteric Bike
05:04:34 <Sgeo> This guy's voice is notable
05:05:22 <Sgeo> Seems like it could be a cool game for a tablet
05:06:30 <Bike> elliott: get on this. thx
05:07:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
05:07:46 <Bike> Knew I could count on you.
05:07:48 <elliott> Bike: yo it's 6 am - do i sleep
05:07:59 <Bike> I... how long have you been awake
05:08:12 <elliott> 1, 2 pm? but i didn't sleep that much
05:08:22 * Bike counts on fingers
05:08:27 <Bike> uh this is hard. play it safe and sleep imo
05:08:32 <shachaf> i used to counton my fingers
05:08:35 <shachaf> but they always let me down :'(
05:09:35 <Bike> Are you tireD?
05:10:19 <Bike> We're all tired of #haskell.
05:11:25 <shachaf> Fiora: now that haswell is out should i acquire a haswell computer
05:11:35 <shachaf> i'm not longer interested in the things i was interested in it for once upon a time
05:11:40 <Sgeo> shachaf, non-existent as of this point in time, unless I have caching issues.
05:11:45 <Sgeo> Thanks for making me check >:(
05:12:19 <shachaf> Sgeo: If it had updated, I would've `olisted myself.
05:12:59 <Sgeo> In all likelihood, it exists sometime between 1 second from now and a billion years from now.
05:13:37 <shachaf> a billion years from now the average surface temperature on earth will be 47° hth
05:14:09 <Fiora> shachaf: um... I don't really know, I guess it kinda depends on what you currently have and stuff...
05:14:49 <Sgeo> liquidwar6 segfaults :(
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05:19:32 <kmc> 'good to know'
05:24:53 <Sgeo> The AI in liquidwar5 is ... not good
05:28:38 <Sgeo> Found the AI difficulty slider
05:28:44 <Sgeo> Kicked it up a notch
05:28:55 <Sgeo> Still wasn't very good, but held a defensive position for a long time
05:29:16 <shachaf> Sgeo: wow this is like one of those movies
05:29:45 <Sgeo> The guy's voice?
05:29:58 <shachaf> no the way you improved the ai
05:33:12 <Sgeo> Kicked it up another notch. I am being ground into paste.
05:36:09 <shachaf> kmc: help how do i prepare for job interview
05:36:46 <mnoqy> first you should have an appointment for a job interview, and transportation
05:37:15 <kmc> that is p. important
05:37:37 <Sgeo> Well, I finally didn't lose against this.... but didn't fully win
05:37:44 <kmc> shachaf: at my most recent interviews I got surprisingly few algorithms / puzzles / etc questions, and lots of questions about my background and stuff I've done in the past
05:37:45 <Sgeo> Had enemy mostly surrounded, but it held out
05:37:48 <Fiora> get some sleep and try to not panic too much?
05:37:53 <kmc> so I feel like having rehersed answers for the latter helped me
05:38:05 <kmc> like, deciding ahead of time what I would say to "Why did your past two jobs last less than a year each?" was important
05:38:15 <kmc> i don't know how much this is true for you
05:38:23 <kmc> I know some companies do lots of puzzle questions even for experienced people
05:38:27 <kmc> but I think that's falling out of favor
05:38:43 <kmc> I guess just make sure you can talk about everything on your resume, and in some technical detail
05:39:29 <kmc> if the company wants you to have, like, memorized http://bigocheatsheet.com/ then I think you shouldn't work there if you can help it ;P
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05:41:48 <kmc> o no shachaf missed my advice
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05:42:24 <shachaf> Hmm, irssi ran into a very odd bug.
05:42:29 <shachaf> I thought it was tmux but I guess not.
05:42:44 <shachaf> Don't worry, I managed to logread it.
05:44:04 <shachaf> Anyway it's just some phone interviews at this point.
05:44:27 <kmc> good luckchaf
05:56:20 <elliott> i forgot how tiring being tired is
05:56:46 <shachaf> being not tired is also tiring
05:57:20 <shachaf> in fact just about everything is tiring except sleeping
06:00:27 <Fiora> sleeping makes me tired sometimes too
06:00:48 <shachaf> i'm p. tired when i wake up
06:00:59 <shachaf> it's kind of delayed action untiringness
06:13:20 <kmc> that is why god invented coffee
06:13:27 <kmc> or diet mt dew as the case may be
06:15:15 <shachaf> or those big cups of questionable liquid you were drinking
06:15:23 <shachaf> maybe that wasn't caffeinated
06:17:03 <elliott> my new shachaf repellent is called caffeinated drums
06:18:00 <shachaf> what's wrong with your old shachaf repellent
06:19:04 <mnoqy> as we all know failing to exist is a poor way to repel shachaf
06:20:55 <kmc> which questionable liquid was i drinking when
06:21:22 <kmc> i used to drink 'questionable liquid' i.e. bitter water with food coloring that comes out of a glass labware bottle labeled "POISON DO NOT DRINK"
06:21:32 <kmc> v. careful amounts thereof
06:21:54 <kmc> we had a color coding system for indicating which synthetic hallucinogen it was
06:21:57 <kmc> safety first
06:22:11 <shachaf> oh i just meant that big cup from that store we went to twice
06:22:31 <kmc> yes we had to go twice because i drank the first one
06:22:45 <kmc> the 7-Eleven refill is a wonderful thing
06:23:11 <shachaf> i assume it was some form of sugar water
06:23:27 <kmc> aspartame water
06:23:41 <kmc> well there was a little sugar because I usually mix in some amount of non-diet drinx, e.g. lemonade
06:26:25 <kmc> Diet Coke with some lemonade, I think
06:26:29 <kmc> maybe Coke Zero w/ same
06:26:46 <shachaf> have never managed to drink anything carbonated
06:26:54 <kmc> that's fair I suppose
06:27:06 <kmc> soda is the drums of the drink world
06:27:20 <sacje> what does that mean
06:27:29 <shachaf> elliott: carbonated drum hth
06:27:33 <kmc> `welcome sacje
06:27:37 <elliott> oh right i meant carbonated
06:27:38 <HackEgo> sacje: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:27:49 <shachaf> now i understand what you meant thx
06:27:53 <sacje> i feel welcome now
06:27:59 <elliott> i like both carbonation and drums im the anti shachaf
06:28:09 <HackEgo> sacje: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:28:26 <elliott> kmc: i don't know how you can stand to use plain old `welcome when we have so many fantastic welcoming options
06:28:28 <sacje> i can only feel so welcome guys
06:28:37 <HackEgo> SACJE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
06:28:39 <kmc> an elegant, minimalist `welcome
06:28:43 <elliott> that is the first thing to learn
06:29:00 <Bike> fiora still has to attend therapy after all that welcoming
06:29:18 <shachaf> did we ever re-welcome Fiora after she came back
06:29:28 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:39:41 <shachaf> have fun with that particular individual
08:40:23 <shachaf> Perhaps they won't be as bad here as in #haskell.
08:41:41 <elliott> kmc: my psychic knowledge tells me exactly who you're talking to
08:41:49 <elliott> it also tells you that you shouldn't bother
08:45:39 <elliott> kmc: it's the powers of not living in sf
08:45:52 <kmc> o no if i move will i lose my psychic powers
08:46:15 <shachaf> the powers can sense that you're going to move to sf and leave before you do
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11:15:52 <Fiora> shachaf: thank you for the welcome x3
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11:35:57 * Fiora considers her terrible lack of sleep and goes to play more class of heroes instead
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11:44:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4062
11:45:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25547
11:47:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
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15:55:09 <oerjan> <kmc> do you remember how old PC software used to come with a plastic sheet that fit around your keys and was labeled with the various functions for that software and color coded according to whether you should use them with shift, ctrl, etc? <-- the washing machine came with such sheets in several different languages. no ctrl/shift keys, though.
16:05:52 <Vorpal> Hm, when was that? (For PC software, not washing machines)
16:06:17 <oerjan> well, i suppose there were several modifier keys, like prewash. but they weren't marked on the other ones.
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16:07:03 <oerjan> i vaguely recall such a pc sheet
16:07:37 <oerjan> i think it was for a word processing program
16:08:19 <oerjan> i think windows, not sure.
16:10:27 <kmc> yeah I think we had one for a pre-Windows word processing program
16:10:36 <pikhq> Oh *man* those things were terrible.
16:10:46 <kmc> for me the timeline is a little confused because I had got a lot of computer junk to play with that was obsolete even in 1995
16:11:02 <pikhq> I learned to code on an Apple II.
16:11:12 <pikhq> I was 2 when they stopped making 'em.
16:12:51 <oerjan> but you turned out all right anyhow?
16:13:28 <kmc> I did a little early programming on Apple ][ as well
16:13:50 <kmc> but I would say I learned to program in QBASIC and TI-83+ BASIC
16:13:56 <kmc> and a bit later Visual Basic 4.0
16:15:12 <oerjan> i recall visiting someone on a vacation, who had something which was probably an Apple II. and also managing to make a flag picture on it. that may have been my first physical contact with a computer.
16:15:34 <kmc> despite its limitations the TI-83+ was a great platform for learning to code
16:17:12 <oerjan> although i am not _quite_ sure whether that was before or after my dad brought home a typewriter/modem device and let me play with basic on a Nord-100 server.
16:19:59 <oerjan> "The board was laid out and finished and tested when they realized that the CPU was far faster than the Nord-10/S. The result was that all the marketing material for the new NORD-10/M was discarded, the board was rechristened the Nord-100, and extensively advertised as the successor of the Nord-10 line."
16:27:27 <oerjan> <kmc> Bike: how do you have logs of who someone else has PMed??? <-- he just uses the Prism interface in lens, duh
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16:47:32 <HackEgo> flier: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:49:44 <oerjan> <mnoqy> as we all know failing to exist is a poor way to repel shachaf <-- i dunno, has canada avoided shachaf up until now?
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17:21:50 <Fiora> kmc: I think I learned with... I think it was Borland C with my dad? and my TI-82
17:21:56 <Fiora> later TI-83 and stuff
17:22:34 <Fiora> one of the few things I remember about being, like, 9, is being a total dumb and leaving my TI-82 right under the halogen lamp on my desk, only to find later that I melted off the corner of it (but it still worked)
17:23:00 <Sgeo> ....someone in the Active Worlds FB group, of all places, posted me this: http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/38547658.jpg
17:34:59 <oerjan> myndzi has added new features?
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17:57:40 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/Q9VwEMfk the face of modern hacking
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18:01:52 <oerjan> do the stallman pictures include the toe eating stuff
18:03:17 <Sgeo> I should learn Jack...
18:03:52 <Bike> Sgeo: it's actually pretty simple
18:04:20 <ion> &-style Perl function calls. 2012.
18:04:31 <Sgeo> I saw some suggestion for a GUI config tool, but that's not actually necessary, right?
18:05:02 <Bike> hella convenient however
18:05:29 <Sgeo> Blargh. Worth it to set up X forwarding to use it?
18:08:19 <ion> “set up X forwarding” a.k.a. adding the -X parameter to ssh?
18:09:56 <Sgeo> It would use up bandwidth, wouldn't it?
18:10:35 <ion> That’s what using the network tends to do.
18:11:01 <Bike> Does anyone happen to know what SI stands for in US classification terminology? TS//SI//NF is obviously top seccret//something??//noforn
18:11:24 <Sgeo> Well, that was painfully slow
18:11:34 <Sgeo> I think I'll avoid it
18:12:49 <Deewiant> Bike: http://www.acronymfinder.com/TS%2fSI.html hth
18:13:24 <Bike> hey that actually does. thanks.
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18:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> so apparently jon oliver is going to present the daily show for a bit?
18:30:23 <Bike> "Finally, a British man can be funny in America"
18:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> the americans are now comfortable with an englishman taking the piss out of america
18:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> americans hate the english taking the piss out of america
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18:36:12 <Bike_> i don't know if the daily show's target demographic is stereotypical americans
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18:38:33 <flier> Ubuntu-Mx 8 Bienvenido al Canal de la Comunidad de Ubuntu Mxico! || Ten presente siempre el Cdigo de Conducta || Visita nuestro sitio en http://ubuntumexico.org/ || nete en Launchpad https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mx || Nosotros somos por que t eres! Si necesitas ayuda pregunta a todo el canal. || Reglas del Canal: http://niq.mx/umxirc || Para pegar usa http://pastebin.ubuntu.com
18:38:51 <Bike> `relcome flier
18:38:54 <HackEgo> flier: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:44:04 <oerjan> Bike: they're stereotypical democrats, no?
18:44:15 <oerjan> which as we all know aren't real americans.
18:44:22 <Bike> more like stereotypical stoned college students
18:44:38 <oerjan> ah, a subset of democrats.
18:45:26 <oerjan> also, has the republican party collapsed completely yet, i may have paid less attention for a while
18:45:50 <Bike> Not yet. Bachmann quit or something.
18:46:16 <oerjan> i guess they need an election to observe the actual collapse, like in quantum mechanics
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18:48:13 <oerjan> i'm wondering if flier has quite the hang of irc yet
18:48:57 <oerjan> that wasn't really spam, it was the topic message for #ubuntu-mx
18:49:36 <zzo38> That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't spam.
18:49:44 <quintopia> i'm sorry. your sentence made no sense
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18:49:58 <quintopia> "that wasn't really spam, it was spam"
18:50:09 <oerjan> well it's not commercial.
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18:51:01 <oerjan> which means i suspect it was more likely to be a mistake than intended
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19:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, oi, can you define prime numbers categorically
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20:17:40 <Bike_> https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi are you all ready for islamic libertarian startup culture?
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20:31:49 <zzo38> I made up a implementation of Deadfish in Nintendo Family Computer.
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20:32:40 <zzo38> It can work with up to eight digits.
20:34:53 <zzo38> It could probably be made to fit in a much smaller ROM, but 16K is the smallest one available.
20:35:33 <zzo38> This is download http://zzo38computer.org/nes_program/deadfish.zip If you have a emulator or a Famicom then you can try it.
20:36:26 <Bike> family computer brainfuck
20:36:39 <zzo38> Bike: I think there is one of that already.
20:37:44 <pikhq> Well hey, there was Family Computer BASIC.
20:37:54 <pikhq> Sorry, "Family BASIC".
20:38:03 <pikhq> Clearly you should call it Family Deadfish.
20:38:23 <zzo38> Yes, there was that. I don't have a copy of Family BASIC, however; I only have the emulator, and I don't have Family BASIC on that either.
20:40:22 * pikhq particularly loves that Family BASIC supported a tape drive
20:40:44 <zzo38> I have never written a program to use the tape yet.
20:41:19 <pikhq> Though in principle you could. The tape interface is on the keyboard.
20:41:33 <zzo38> But possibly a Z-machine interpreter could store the save files in a tape, or it could put the transcript there if you could connect a printer to the tape port somehow.
20:42:01 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and the emulator I use does support the tape (and the keyboard).
20:42:02 <pikhq> The tape hookup is a pair of mono phono jacks.
20:42:27 <pikhq> oh my god you could use that for Internet.
20:42:55 <Bike> Was it famicom or super famicom that had the satellite hookup
20:43:18 <pikhq> The satellite hookup was one-way.
20:43:35 <pikhq> The cart had a satellite tuner in it, and that was 'bout it.
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20:45:03 <nooodl> isn't there some way to compile C to 6502 asm out there
20:45:40 <zzo38> nooodl: Yes, there is, and Zooming Secretary has been written using it.
20:45:53 <zzo38> I just used assembly language, though.
20:46:39 <pikhq> *Sweet*. Contiki already supports the NES.
20:47:43 <zzo38> This Deadfish implementation is much longer than the other ones because there is many things that isn't built-in.
20:50:18 <zzo38> If you try my implementation and you find any mistake or other comment, then please tell me about it.
20:53:01 <zzo38> It doesn't implement key repeat (you have to release the key before it will accept another command), but it does deal with overscan.
20:55:35 <FreeFull> My favourite esolang thing will probably forever remain IBNIZ
20:57:38 <ion> It’s viznut’s audiovisual language.
20:57:42 <Sgeo> My favorite is Bancstar
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21:27:53 <zzo38> Which NES/Famicom programs use OAM in ROM (instead of OAM in RAM, which is probably more common)?
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21:39:25 <oerjan> ?sdrawkcab gnipyt uoy era yhw :lluFeerF
21:46:20 <shachaf> kappabot: @admin - FreeFull
21:46:49 <shachaf> The point is that you can make it leave the channel if the double-botting gets annoying.
21:48:03 <oerjan> lambdabot: HOW DARE YOU DEFY ME
21:48:20 <FreeFull> lambdabot: @seriously, go away
21:48:29 <lambdabot> system provides: echo list listchans listmodules listservers uptime
21:48:29 <kappabot> system provides: echo list listchans listmodules listservers uptime
21:48:40 <lambdabot> system provides: echo list listchans listmodules listservers uptime
21:48:40 <kappabot> system provides: echo list listchans listmodules listservers uptime
21:48:52 <lambdabot> quit [msg], have the bot exit with msg
21:48:53 <kappabot> quit [msg], have the bot exit with msg
21:51:36 <kmc> Fiora: hm, starting with C is pretty intense
21:51:44 <kmc> i didn't know for a long time that you could get free C compilers
21:52:07 <kmc> i had Teach Yourself Game Programming in 21 Days which came with a DOS C compiler, but like a bad / limited one
21:52:24 <kmc> i really enjoyed reading that book but most of the stuff in it would be beyond my capabilities for like another 10 years
21:52:49 <kmc> TI-8x was a great platform for learning programming
21:53:12 <kmc> i had it with me always so i could spend spare moments programming (e.g. during the many long bus rides that defined my school existence)
21:53:40 <kmc> and it had easy access to graphics, graphing, and menus which made it easy to do small games and demos without a lot of bullshit
21:54:02 <kmc> and you could share your programs at school peer-to-peer in a way that was really compelling (probably not so much anymore for the facebook generation)
21:54:07 <nooodl> i still program ti 84 stuff :')
21:55:34 <nooodl> guys. generalised deadfish http://sprunge.us/GeYR?hs
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21:55:57 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Somalia_map_states_regions_districts.png&offset=&limit=500#filehistory wikipedia on the front lines
21:56:35 <nooodl> Bike: whoa that's pretty cool
21:56:47 <Bike> should be a gif
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21:57:52 <kmc> good old somalia
21:58:13 <kmc> i'm told that somaliland is a relatively stable (sub-)state by local standards
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21:59:02 <Bike> yeah, i know a guy who's family was going to move there
21:59:08 <Bike> i, uh, haven't heard from him for a few months, hm.
21:59:13 <kmc> i think lexande counts it as a country for his country count
21:59:21 <kmc> why were they moving there
21:59:34 <Bike> His family was from the area.
21:59:52 <Bike> The guy I knew wasn't really excited about it though.
21:59:57 <kmc> can't imagine why
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22:01:36 <Bike> hopefully he's still in the UK and just hasn't been around
22:19:04 <kmc> nooodl: why a type class and not ordinary polymorphic stuffs
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23:05:54 <Sgeo> *grumble* I think I have a caffeine addiction
23:06:07 <Sgeo> I don't drink coffee on the weekends, and lately I've been having a headache each weekend
23:06:52 <kmc> you have a caffeine addiction
23:07:01 <Bike> many people do
23:07:12 <Bike> unrelated: does anyone here happen to know anything about baseball and the history thereof
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23:28:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's why i always make sure to have caffeinated beverages (these days coke zero) in the house
23:29:03 <Sgeo> oerjan, or I could try cutting myself down to 1 cup of coffee a day
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23:29:31 <shachaf> or you could not drink coffee hth
23:31:17 <Bike> yeah what w eneed here is definitely more drugs.
23:31:54 <pikhq> Thus far my experience with drugs is that they are magic.
23:31:58 <Bike> just cut your caffeine with heroin hth
23:32:00 <hagb4rd> who is drinking coke without sugar! that's like ..like
23:34:03 <Bike> wait, are you talking about soda.
23:34:12 <Bike> i may be confused
23:34:19 <pikhq> hagb4rd: Without sugar? We need more sugar!
23:34:45 <hagb4rd> that's all the same bike,..drugs
23:35:30 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FHOFMiQYKI
23:35:52 <hagb4rd> drugs are good..people are bad
23:36:38 <hagb4rd> guns don't kill people.. people kill people
23:42:52 <hagb4rd> exporing inner and outer space
23:43:50 <oerjan> hagb4rd: my weight dropped drastically approximately after i switched from sugared coke to zero. although there may have been other factors.
23:45:02 <hagb4rd> i'm sure there is no doubt such amounts of sugar are not healthy
23:45:57 <oerjan> it wasn't reason, it was my stomach acting up and a fear i might be getting diabetes.
23:46:43 <hagb4rd> yes, death is the ultimate consultant
23:47:13 <oerjan> stop ircing on drgus hth
23:47:27 <oerjan> (it felt wrong to fix that typo)
23:47:35 <hagb4rd> stop thinking about a pink elephant!
23:47:56 <zzo38> I have a TI-92 calculator and sometimes program it.
23:48:12 <oerjan> zzo38: *and am not afraid to use it
23:48:24 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that too.
23:49:32 <zzo38> Including a solitaire card game, a random name generator, a dice rolling program, Goldilock's Method, a telephone numbers database, and various other things.
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00:09:08 <Sgeo> I seem to be slightly workaholic
00:09:29 <Sgeo> But I've been checking my work email repeatedly
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00:21:52 <olsner> did kmc get a job at mozilla?
00:23:35 <Sgeo> Searching Amazon Instant Video for whose line is it anyway finds me Two and a Half Men
00:23:41 <Sgeo> That's really not what I was looking for
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00:37:37 <kmc> olsner: yes
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00:44:18 <shachaf> Hmm, Mastermind is easier than I remembered.
00:47:14 <Sgeo> Maybe if I read about liquid war strategy, I can beat the AI on medium difficulty
00:47:33 <Sgeo> So far, the closest I came to winning, I couldn't stamp out the pocket of resistance that I surrounded
00:47:43 <olsner> kmc: congratulations, I guess
00:47:47 <Sgeo> http://www.gnu.org/software/liquidwar6/manual/html_node/Strategy-tips.html
00:47:59 <Sgeo> This is the most helpful page ever!
00:48:08 <kmc> thanks olsner
00:48:18 <Bike> Sgeo: "you're on your own, motherfucker"
00:48:43 <olsner> shachaf: is there a trick that makes it easy?
01:04:02 <Sgeo> pikhq, is SennHeiser still your recommendation?
01:09:27 <Phantom__Hoover> seen on youtube: the new world order has apparently made america into a virtual prism
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01:20:11 <Sgeo> Well, just ordered earbuds and headphones, so...
01:21:05 <Sgeo> This will greatly enhance my MIDI listening experience!
01:21:50 <shachaf> Eh. It'll never be anything but MIDIocre.
01:22:43 <Sgeo> HD 201 and MX 270
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01:37:10 <kmc> MX missile
01:38:49 <shachaf> why are computer things so bad compared to what they could be
01:38:57 <Bike> why is everything bad
01:39:04 <Bike> things should be good
01:39:11 <olsner> shachaf: because they're built by idiots
01:39:32 <kmc> the problems are easy, it's just that other people aren't as smart as me
01:39:45 <kmc> if i designed everything then i would get everything right the first time
01:40:01 <shachaf> we need more people like kmc in the world
01:40:51 <kmc> also i would use C
01:40:57 <shachaf> or maybe we all just need to give kmc a bunch of money and have him solve all our problems............
01:41:01 <kmc> because I would not make any mistakes and that way it would be fast
01:41:02 <shachaf> also make him dictator of the world
01:42:37 <Bike> kmc, as dictator, what would you do to deal with the growing hunger crisis (it's a crisis in that it's bad not in that it's like rapid) in the united states
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01:53:38 <zzo38> Everyone make some mistakes, including you too.
02:07:18 <sacje> i don't make mistakes
02:22:05 <zzo38> Are you sure? You forgot to capitalize "I" and add a full stop.
02:23:23 <Guest98034> yes but it was on purpose, not forgetfulness
02:25:38 <oerjan> Guest98034: you have forgot to fix your nick hth
02:26:55 <Guest98034> i always forget which channels i have to part before i can nick
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02:35:46 <oerjan> i didn't know you had to part any, what kind of channels are that
02:36:10 <zzo38> I think you cannot change your name if you are on any channels that you cannot post messages on.
02:36:52 <oerjan> as if parting and rejoining is less noisy...
02:37:30 <zzo38> Once on some other IRC server I was unable to post messages on some channel, so instead I unjoin and then change my name and then join and then unjoin and then change my name and so on; eventually they fixed it, though, so that I can post messages. They put that in there due to someone else that was using this IRC before who used my IP address.
02:40:44 <kmc> zzo38: I know, I was being sarcastic
02:40:58 <kmc> I make many mistakes and I pick tools that help me catch mistakes before they can do damage
02:41:03 <kmc> or at least I would like to.
02:42:20 <Bike> unfortunately you made the mistake of mistakenly picking tools?
02:48:44 <shachaf> your first mistake was making your second mistake
02:51:26 <ais523> `addquote <shachaf> your first mistake was making your second mistake
02:51:33 <HackEgo> 1049) <shachaf> your first mistake was making your second mistake
02:52:24 <HackEgo> 1024) <shachaf> i would visit elliott but i'm vegetarian
02:53:00 <HackEgo> 1037) <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
02:53:39 <HackEgo> 512) <fizzie> Isn't "strip nomic" just another word for all dating, though?
02:54:33 <Sgeo> kmc, Kernel doesn't seem as amenable to static analysis as Racket, so how do you reconcile your liking of Kernel with your liking of static analysis?
02:55:05 <Bike> Saying "JIT" a lot
02:55:36 <pikhq> Honestly sounds lame.
02:55:42 <Bike> also static analysis isn't that hard. as long as you remove environment mutability. who needs that anyway
02:55:50 <shachaf> Static analysis is not just about performance.
02:56:07 <shachaf> Assuming that's what you mean? I don't know what you mean. Or what I mean.
02:56:18 * Sgeo doesn't care about performance, but checking correctness
02:58:03 <shachaf> imo write a correctness jit hth
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02:58:36 <oerjan> shachaf: sounds like a plan
02:58:46 <pikhq> Recursive JITting?
02:58:52 <Bike> can't tell you this code is correct until you run it
02:59:02 <shachaf> it tells you that your code is broken just in time
03:01:02 <kmc> Sgeo: i don't claim Kernel is practical
03:01:09 <kmc> i like it for aesthetic and theoretical reasons
03:01:24 <kmc> i like all kinds of languages for different, even contradictory reasons
03:01:54 <shachaf> do you draw the line at self-contradictory reasons
03:01:57 <Bike> i'd really like to make kernel practical. the dream
03:02:04 <kmc> i don't see languages as 'must have feature X or Y', it's more about integrating the features you do have in a pleasing way
03:02:11 <kmc> shachaf: so easy
03:02:35 <Bike> i don't think a person has been consistent in the entirety of history so like, whatever, man, right?
03:03:02 <Bike> actually people don't really have propositional beliefs anyway. imo anarchy in the hippocampus
03:03:28 <kmc> Bike: has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
03:03:45 <Bike> yeah that's obviously true.
03:06:58 <zzo38> I also like different kind of language for different reasons, although some have some stupid stuff (including PHP).
03:07:30 <Fiora> kmc: I really remember like, basiaclly nothing about starting with C, but it was through some online course thing (but it was really primitive because it was the 90s?) and I know like. I don't think even pointers were done, it was like. really way simpler
03:07:49 <Bike> i'd like to jump on the "i have varying beliefs often backed up by reasoning" train, i think it's going places
03:07:54 <Fiora> though I only really infer that by like, the fact that I totally had to actually learn C when I actually had to use it for class years later <.<
03:08:14 <Bike> yeah i "learned" C++ in a similar fashion
03:08:19 <Fiora> (my words are completely incoherent because I just woke up from a 3 hour nap)
03:08:27 <Fiora> I'd ask my dad who threw me into the whole thing
03:08:30 <Fiora> but I doubt he'd remember
03:08:57 <shachaf> I think the first language I wrote anything in was either C or Logo.
03:09:03 <zzo38> I think I programmed in BASIC first. I still do program in BASIC sometimes, although I also program in C and various other programming languages.
03:09:15 <quintopia> the first language i wrote in was TI-82 BASIC
03:09:32 <Bike> that is an absurd emoticon sir
03:10:07 <kmc> the first actual programming class I took was in C++ and they gave us a lot of bad advice
03:10:25 <shachaf> kmc: could've been worse. could've been in c/c++
03:10:28 <Fiora> I think the first one I was in was java
03:10:38 <kmc> i did basically the same curriculum in Java the next year
03:12:06 <quintopia> the first class i took was vb i think, then delphi, then java, then c
03:12:30 <shachaf> how can you take a class in a language if it's not object-oriented
03:13:03 <Sgeo> Rust taking up the C niche doesn't imply unsuitability for application dev, right?
03:13:35 <Sgeo> A language could fill up a niche that another language took, while still being suitable for things that other language wasn't, I assume
03:13:42 <quintopia> my high school was not object-oriented but i still graduated 5th in my class stalemate bitches
03:13:54 <Fiora> kmc: it's kind of amazing though like how where you start affects things
03:14:04 <kmc> Sgeo: that seems logically correct yes
03:14:06 <Fiora> like I knew a classmate in college who started with scheme I think
03:14:17 <kmc> Sgeo: it's pretty hard to draw a line between 'application' and 'systems' anyway
03:14:28 <Bike> i started with c++ so: am i doomed
03:14:31 <kmc> browsers definitely started as humdrum applications software and gradually became systems software
03:14:34 <Fiora> and like for me the C-style lower level stuff was relatively easy and the functional and logic programming stuff was really really hard
03:14:39 <kmc> and there was no one single point where the switch happened
03:14:44 <quintopia> for a language used in a class i mean
03:14:45 <kmc> for Rust it's mainly about caring about latency a lot
03:14:48 <shachaf> Bike: you started in c++ because you are doomed not the other way around hth
03:14:51 <kmc> users get pissed off when their browser lags
03:14:58 <Bike> shachaf: how sensible.
03:15:03 <Fiora> but for him the functional programming and logic stuff was amazingly easy, while he was like fiora please teach me c
03:15:35 <zzo38> kmc: Well, there is a lot of software that you don't want to be lags
03:15:38 <kmc> i took an x86 assembly class pretty early on
03:15:43 <Fiora> though he was way smarter than me either way, I mean, he basically got straight As and aced the logic class I literally had to drop... -_-
03:15:44 <kmc> that was cool
03:15:59 <kmc> eh grades aren't that strongly correlated with intelligence
03:16:01 <shachaf> functional programming (whatever that is) makes a lot more sense than c imo hth
03:16:07 <kmc> i know a lot of smart people who got shitty grades for this or that reason
03:16:13 <Fiora> (also he was really cute, erm, I mean, <.<)
03:16:23 <Bike> "you shoulda seen the cat ears on 'im"
03:16:44 <ais523> kmc: well I failed one module (= 1/48 of my course) at university
03:16:54 <ais523> although my other grades were high enough that I still got a first class degree
03:16:57 <Fiora> Bike: not like thaaat
03:17:01 <Fiora> also he was totally taken
03:17:07 <Bike> vulpine ears huh
03:17:09 <Bike> i know the type
03:17:25 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I almost did. In some years of the high-school mathematics, I got a NM and SG. NM means a mark hasn't been assigned (like zero out of zer0), since the teacher know I am good at it despite failing to complete many assignments, and SG means you can pass regardless of your mark.
03:17:34 <Bike> you're on the mark though, foxes are pretty cute as a rule
03:17:36 <kmc> those are some strange grades
03:17:43 <zzo38> (The other class I got NM in was homeroom class.)
03:17:52 <Bike> those are weird grades
03:17:57 <shachaf> i got some pretty strange grades back when i got grades
03:18:03 <kmc> we had... A, B, C, D, F, F*, P, E, I, W and some others
03:18:07 <Bike> can't you just be failed like a normal person (me <--)
03:18:14 <kmc> ' ' aka 'TA failed to submit grades on time'
03:18:23 <zzo38> kmc: What does F* mean?
03:18:45 <kmc> zzo38: it means you failed a class which was taken on a pass/fail basis, so it doesn't count against your GPA but it's still on your transcript
03:19:47 <kmc> at Caltech a lot of people got bad grades due to massive undiagnosed ADHD
03:20:06 <Fiora> I think I got like a 3.0ish major average or something... I just was really terrible in the theory classes. I think I got a C in algorithms even though the professor was *amazing* and I loved it
03:20:23 <Fiora> I actually liked the np-completeness proofs, even
03:20:31 <kmc> np completeness proofs are great
03:20:40 <kmc> was that part of Algorithms for you?
03:20:44 <zzo38> kmc: O, that's what it means. I can remember in my school we had A, B, C+, C, C-, F, I, W, NM, SG, and a few others that I do not remember at this time. In typing class I got A+ although they didn't have A+ in the system so they put A instead.
03:20:50 <Bike> man my algorithms class was all sorts, jerk
03:20:57 <Fiora> yeah, there was also a higher level course, like, a complexity theory class that was like Jedi Algorithms
03:21:02 <Fiora> I didn't take that one though
03:21:12 <Fiora> our algorithms was um...
03:21:15 <kmc> i took a higher level complexity theory class that had very little to do with useful algorithms
03:21:18 <Bike> i should actually read my kolmogorov book
03:21:24 <kmc> i didn't take the higher level algo class because it sounded scary as hell
03:21:26 <shachaf> i should take an algorithms class and complexity theory class and other things
03:21:30 <Fiora> big O, interesting stuff like "how do you actually prove the nlogn bound on sorts", np completeness, turing machines, computability
03:21:32 <shachaf> or maybe read books on the topic
03:21:41 <kmc> it's all like "ok we taught you that NP hard problems are hard, now we're going to teach you all the cool approximation algorithms to do them anyway"
03:21:43 <Fiora> so it was kinda a lot of algorithms analysis type stuff?
03:21:45 <Fiora> and graph theory and things
03:21:55 <Bike> kmc: that's the scary class? more like the great class
03:22:07 <zzo38> W means withdrawal, I means incomplete (similar to F, although the marks you didn't earn are due to incomplete assignments or an incomplete course), NM means "no mark", SG means "standing granted"
03:22:21 <Bike> man can you imagine actually being good at math
03:22:24 <Bike> that would be pretty cool i think
03:22:30 <Fiora> he was really amazing though. like he would have a box of chocolate covered coffee beans at the front of the class when people came in
03:22:34 <Fiora> and for some strange reason everyone in class
03:24:08 <zzo38> I was good at my math class, although because I failed to complete many of the assignments (although I got good marks on everything I did do, including all of the tests/exams, and the other assignments were mostly more of the same thing), my mark was not put into the report card, which made it NM for each term. The final mark was then made SG.
03:24:24 <kmc> chocolate covered coffee beans are serious business
03:24:30 <kmc> it's easy to eat a whole lot of them............
03:24:35 <Fiora> memories... oh right, the AI class was really wonderful. I loved the professor for that one too, she could like explain things in a way that actually made sense and like wow
03:25:07 <zzo38> I also dropped one class after one week (for some reason I wasn't selecting my own classes, although I was allowed to drop classes). It was graphic arts. I could not understand what anything the teacher said meant, so I dropped the class.
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03:48:19 <zzo38> One idea I have is make a SQL database of iNES mapper numbers, which you might use to decide what mapper to use with your game, or for other purposes.
03:50:28 <zzo38> Which Deadfish implementations are the shortest and longest ones? I think the shortest one might be the one in AWK. The longest one might be the one for the Famicom. Is there others shorter/longer than these?
03:52:14 <Sgeo> "The hardest thing to build is a machine that needs to function perfectly without any supervision -- without the chance to make a single adjustment once it's out of your hands"
03:52:21 <Sgeo> -- a character in The Eternal Flame
03:52:30 <Bike> Is that a sciencee fiction novel
03:52:49 <Sgeo> Yes. It's part of the Orthogonality trilogy by Greg Egan
03:52:55 <zzo38> What machine is it?
03:53:13 <Sgeo> They're talking about a small spaceship, and that it has a repair crew
04:27:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12034
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04:57:04 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_10#Mission_highlights "A lot of people thought about the kind of people we were: 'Don't give those guys an opportunity to land, 'cause they might!' So the ascent module, the part we lifted off the lunar surface with, was short-fueled. The fuel tanks weren't full. So had we literally tried to land on the Moon, we couldn't have gotten off."
05:05:24 <shachaf> Are there any untyped non-strict languages for learning?
05:10:04 <kmc> [eliding pointless argument about what 'untyped' means]
05:10:07 <kmc> lazy racket, maybe?
05:10:44 <kmc> there is some lazy stuff in SICP; I think that lazy Scheme is one of the language variants they do after the metacircular evaluator
05:11:02 <shachaf> What should I say instead of "untyped" so that there's no pointless argument?
05:11:14 <kmc> probably nothing, pointless arguments are a fact of life
05:11:26 <kmc> but i elided it!
05:11:28 <kmc> so it's fine
05:11:40 <shachaf> Yes, but did you elide the metaärgument about pointless arguments?
05:11:44 <kmc> I didn't actually object to your use of "untyped"
05:11:51 <kmc> shachaf: I am not that powerful yet
05:12:01 <shachaf> Anyway I think in the places where it matters non-strictness is more sensible.
05:12:13 <shachaf> E.g. in the obligatory chapter about deriving Y.
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05:15:35 <asdfasd> a language is just conventions for maximum convenience
05:16:13 <shachaf> Anyway I think in places where it matters, strictness makes things way more complicated.
05:16:20 <shachaf> And in the places where it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
05:16:28 <kmc> `relcome asdfasd
05:16:31 <HackEgo> asdfasd: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:16:42 <shachaf> kmc: what happened to celebrating craftsmanship
05:16:53 <kmc> what about it
05:17:50 <shachaf> kmc: Should I drop some punctuation to get more minimalistic writing?
05:17:58 <shachaf> I've started dropping the comma after "i.e." and "e.g."
05:18:16 <kmc> a fine choice
05:18:20 <shachaf> Should I drop the .s too, and decide that they're words of their own?
05:18:39 <shachaf> The . after etc is really annoying because you can't end a sentence with it very well.
05:19:29 <asdfasd> i,e. = id est = that is something, wouldn't make sense a comma separating subject from verb
05:20:07 <shachaf> I don't think commas work the same way in Latin.
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05:35:10 <zzo38> Someone was wondering about chipless bankswitching in NES/Famicom by using CHR address lines, but I don't think this will work. However, maybe it is possible by using the IRQ in the expansion port.
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06:32:46 <Sgeo> "Study: Spice Acts Like Insulin, Eradicates Diabetes"
06:32:55 <Sgeo> I didn't know insulin works by eradicating diabetes!
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07:02:49 <zzo38> It seems there is not yet Deadfish in INTERCAL.
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09:53:58 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0") $@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
09:54:15 <shachaf> `run sed -i '1s/ \$/${$@:+ }$/' bin/olist
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09:55:36 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/@/1/g' bin/olist
09:56:15 <shachaf> Though I don't quite understand this error...
09:56:28 <shachaf> `olist fake, sorry, this is just kind of odd
09:56:30 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/olist: line 1: $(basename "$0")${$1:+ }$1: : bad substitution \ /hackenv/bin/olist: line 2: shachaf: command not found \ /hackenv/bin/oerjan: line 1: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
09:56:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:57:13 <shachaf> How do you revert back two revisions?
09:58:26 * lambdabot hits oerjan with a hammer, so they breaks into a thousand pieces
09:58:26 <kappabot> *SMACK*, *SLAM*, take that oerjan!
09:59:45 <shachaf> `run sed -i '1s/ \$/${@:+ }$/' bin/olist
10:00:53 <shachaf> esoteric/2013-02-06.txt:03:27:53: <shachaf> `run echo AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA > bin/oerjan; chmod +x bin/oerjan
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10:01:25 <shachaf> oerjan: Sorry for the inconvenience.
10:01:48 <shachaf> And possible disappointment over olist.
10:02:06 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
10:11:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/False_Friends_of_the_Slavist
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10:28:56 <shachaf> kmc: An advantage my new /hilight is that when people spell my name "schachaf" or some such I still get highlighted.
10:29:11 <nooodl> shachaf: did you use a regex
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11:32:03 <shachaf> "box" is just a lie, though. It's concrete, but it's the wrong thing.
11:32:19 <shachaf> It only confuses people -- and sometimes it confuses them for months or years. They think they understand but they don't.
11:32:30 <shachaf> I guess this is the wrong channel.
11:33:36 <olsner> if the box you talk about is your matrix of solidity, this is the right channel
11:34:55 <shachaf> olsner: <Sizur> shachaf: what if i think of a box as a value continuum?
11:35:06 <shachaf> I think it might be the right channel...
11:36:03 <olsner> what if I think of the box as an astral plane?
11:36:09 <ais523> does it contain rotten apples?
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12:18:41 <elliott> kmc: mosh basically implements a full terminal emulator from scratch, right?
12:19:01 <elliott> so you could theoretically just write something that actually renders its state to the screen and get a new terminal emulator with better unicode support than anyone else
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12:23:35 <shachaf> mosh's unicode support is broken hth :'(
12:24:31 <olsner> more or less broken than the alternatives?
12:25:06 <shachaf> The obvious alternatives in my case are ssh shachaf.net and mosh shachaf.net
12:25:20 <shachaf> (These work very differently, of course.)
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12:48:13 <nooodl> shachaf: do you think the metaphor is still useful as an introduction to functors (was the box thing about functors)
12:51:37 <shachaf> No, boxes are less than useless.
12:52:08 <nooodl> yes imo putting things in physical boxes is great
12:53:04 <nooodl> anyway how'd you explain functors without boxes... maybe just, they're a way of adding a "context" to a value?
12:53:51 <shachaf> For most functors f, a value of type f a doesn't contain any value of type a at all.
12:53:56 <shachaf> Or it might contain multiple ones.
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12:55:58 <shachaf> I don't know what "context" means but I bet it's at least as complicated as "Functor"
12:58:56 <nooodl> functors are too vague to explain imo
13:00:00 <shachaf> imo the concept of covariance and contravariance is important hth
13:00:20 <nooodl> and i still haven't read enough about category theory to be able to explain haskell Functors in term of that
13:00:37 <nooodl> afaict Functors are endofunctors in Hask
13:00:57 <nooodl> (and thehyre all covariant???)
13:00:59 <elliott> Functor represents Hask-* -> Hask-* (Hask-* terminology stolen from McBride so he doesn't eat me)
13:01:02 <shachaf> I,I as far as i category theory Functors are endofunctors in Hask
13:01:07 <elliott> Contravariant is Hask-*^op -> Hask-*
13:01:28 <elliott> Invariant is Hask-* x Hask-*^op -> Hask-*
13:02:31 <elliott> ob(Hask) = the set of Haskell types; hom_Hask(A,B) = the set of Haskell functions A -> B
13:02:43 <elliott> it isn't actually a category for stupid reasons IIRC but it's close enough
13:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, well the thing is that you can't have a true functor in what you usually think of in Hask
13:02:57 <nooodl> it's for _|_ reasons right
13:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> it's because if you have some functor f, then applying it to a type results in f a
13:03:24 <elliott> you have to violate either left or right identity I think
13:03:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you are saying incorrect things
13:04:16 <elliott> what you're saying is that you can't fully model all Hask-* -> Hask-* functors as a Haskell typeclass
13:04:38 <elliott> if only because you can do undecidable stuff
13:05:02 <nooodl> what's the difference between Hask and Hask-*, is what i'm wondering atm
13:05:04 <elliott> well, it's definitely true without type families at least
13:05:16 <elliott> nooodl: the difference is that conor mcbride hates people who say Hask
13:10:09 <nooodl> hom_Hask^op(A,B) = the set of Haskell functions B -> A, right?
13:12:09 <shachaf> doesn't conor mcbride hate everybody though
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13:34:52 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
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13:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/may/20/weekend.jonronson ronson, the GLORIOUS RETURN
13:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: wow ender's game is even more horrible than i'd realised
14:01:41 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/may/27/weekend.jonronson
14:04:01 <olsner> but what do the croutons say about *you*, Phantom_Hoover?
14:04:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: this guy needs a knighthood
14:04:46 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:05:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you can get a sainthood if you're jewish
14:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> also i don't think you can get a knighthood if you're welsh
14:06:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: these injustices, too, must fall
14:07:04 <olsner> if you're welsh maybe you can get an urdd marchog instead
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14:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how for ronson's book about extremists he interviewed a comically radical islamist, the guy in charge of the kkk... and ian paisley
14:15:25 <elliott> i know nothing about ireland, help
14:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> paisley was one of the leading unionists during the troubles
14:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> and later first minister after the good friday agreement
14:17:01 <elliott> i don't even know what the whole unionist thing is about, i'm so terrible
14:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> the republicans are the pro-republic, broadly catholic ones
14:19:19 <olsner> which of them were the terrorists?
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14:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> there weren't as many bombings etc. from the unionist paramilitaries though, i don't particularly know why that was
14:24:54 <oerjan> maybe possibly maybe the british government didn't want bombings, and might get a bit iffed at the people who supposedly were at their side. just saying.
14:25:35 <olsner> working for a union formed of mutual bombing and respect
14:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the unionist paramilitaries were (officially) illegal as well
14:25:41 * oerjan assumes this is about NI, otherwise disregard
14:25:44 <elliott> since when do governments shy away from using violence
14:25:58 <Phantom_Hoover> though there was collusion between them and the security forces to some controversial degree
14:25:59 <oerjan> elliott: they shy away from _others_ using violence.
14:27:03 <oerjan> it's that whole "monopoly on violence" thing.
14:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but again, the actual government weren't like "ok we want you to rough up the republicans a bit but no bombs, ok!"
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14:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/jun/03/weekend.jonronson oh my god
14:32:45 <oerjan> are you still on that thing, maybe i should look at one of those links
14:33:20 <elliott> ideally logread and click all of them
14:33:26 <elliott> does anyone know about bind mounts btw?
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14:35:35 <olsner> I have used those yes... what about them?
14:36:30 <elliott> olsner: why does bind mounting a file require the target path to exist
14:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Civil_Rights_Association
14:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how their goals just have "and nuclear disarmament" tacked on at the end
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14:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/jun/10/weekend.jonronson
15:01:21 <elliott> wait has it always said "Out of ordinary"
15:01:25 <elliott> i swear there was a "the" there
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15:04:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh jeez, already?
15:06:11 <Fiora> wow, that was fast ._.
15:06:17 <Fiora> He announced he had cancer just 2 months ago...
15:06:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you have a citation, all i see is uncited on WP?
15:06:29 <elliott> and no relevant news results, so maybe it is just vandalism
15:06:38 <Deewiant> https://twitter.com/cstross/status/343740022924648448
15:07:12 * elliott should really get around to reading the Culture books
15:08:09 <Fiora> he was one of my favorite authors too...
15:09:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i am now really regretting not doing more that one time i went to a talk thing he did
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16:32:19 <zzo38> The Famicom Deadfish stores the current number in decimal (using one byte for each digit), and has a 9x9 multiplication table in ROM, as well as a mod10 and div10 tables in ROM, used to implement addition. The cursor is blinking by changing the palette; the OAM is stored in ROM so it won't change the sprites.
16:33:36 <zzo38> The only letters in the pattern table are I D S O, and if you push any other keys it will ignore it and it won't be displayed.
16:34:08 <Sgeo> "to the point that the most current implementation of Zapfino as of this writing, Zapfino Extra Pro, has achieved what seems to be limited sentience. "
16:34:14 <Sgeo> http://typophile.com/node/12422
16:34:49 <Fiora> intelll why do you release manuals that use terminology that you never define in the manual ._.
16:36:51 <zzo38> Fiora: I don't know!
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16:37:13 <Fiora> are you intel? <.<
16:37:17 <olsner> Fiora: you're supposed to already know that stuff obviously
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16:38:03 <zzo38> No, but maybe someone else might know or don't know, too.
16:40:17 <Fiora> they have a table showing the delays and stuff between different units on the chip and have labels like
16:40:44 <Fiora> INT, SSE-INT/AVX-INT, SSE-FP/AVX-FP_LOW, X87/AVX-FP_HIGH
16:40:57 <Fiora> they never define FP_LOW or FP_HIGH anywhere unless I am really bad at searching which I might be
16:41:06 <elliott> zzo38 is Intel. in fact, zzo38 is AMD too. zzo38 is Barack Obama.
16:43:20 <zzo38> I am pretty sure that I am not those things.
16:43:46 <elliott> Fiora: more seriously, googling "FP_LOW FP_HIGH Intel" does seem to show other results in Intel manuals? but I may be wrong. like, "MOVSHDUP—Move Packed Single-FP High and Duplicate. ... MOVSLDUP— Move Packed Single-FP Low and Duplicate"
16:44:00 <elliott> I guess that's (Single-FP) High
16:44:05 <elliott> rather than Single - (FP High)
16:44:13 <olsner> I think it's the optimization reference manual
16:44:34 <olsner> it has tables of functional units and dispatch ports and execution stacks and stuff
16:45:11 <olsner> maybe FP_low does bits 0-127 and FP_high takes bits 128-255
16:45:43 <Fiora> elliott: that's a different thing
16:45:54 <Fiora> there's old instructions that will do things like load a 64-bit value into the low/high half of an sse register
16:46:06 <Fiora> they steal all the google results ^^;
16:46:34 <Fiora> olsner: yeah... that feels like it could be right. but it seems kind of weird that the latency between units is delinated like that? like based on the top or bottom halves... but only for float, not for int...
16:47:32 <Fiora> I guess... maybe they're like in different places on the chip...
16:47:59 <zzo38> Why do they make it way too complicated?
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16:56:36 <olsner> hmm, I think the english is not as good in this manual as in the other ones
16:58:05 <Fiora> the new one with the haswell stuff?
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16:58:33 <Fiora> I guess it's probably kinda draft-ish, it feels really less detailed than the sections on previous cpus
16:58:40 <olsner> actually, this one stops at Sandy Bridge, so I might have an older version
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16:59:20 <Fiora> http://download.intel.com/products/processor/manual/325383.pdf I think this is it?
16:59:29 <HackEgo> 984) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
16:59:57 <Fiora> olsner: http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/manuals/64-ia-32-architectures-optimization-manual.pdf I think this is it
17:00:41 <elliott> the nice thing about running long compilations on your server is that you don't hear the desperate howl of the fans
17:00:59 <Fiora> some things are really weird. like, vpblendd has inverse throughput 0.33 but none of the other blends do (o_O)
17:01:08 <Fiora> and they made round 2x slower I mean not that I use it but...
17:01:21 <elliott> Deewiant: no way. it's like I have infinite power and it's not even breaking a sweat!
17:01:34 <elliott> admittedly, I get less feedback about when it's done
17:02:43 <Fiora> there's actually this whole section in the manual about how to replace shuffles with blends in things like transposes which is like wow I had no idea, that's pretty cool
17:04:30 <zzo38> Now you can see how long the program is: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#Unofficial_MagicKit_Assembler
17:14:34 <elliott> a steam-powered road vehicle just passed by my window.
17:15:14 <elliott> it had a big chimney and all.
17:15:23 <olsner> horseless carriages have finally reached hexham?
17:15:50 <elliott> olsner: I swear to god, there is a car store called "Hexham Horseless Carriages"
17:16:01 <elliott> it probably dates back to when horses still existed.
17:17:11 <zzo38> I think horses do still exist, although not necessarily in Hexham.
17:18:26 <elliott> As mentioned in the outline history section a French artillery officer by the name of Nicholas Cugnot (1729-1804) made a steam three-wheeler intended for military use in 1769. This was arguably the first 'motor vehicle' although the small boiler could carry only enough water for a fifteen minute run and the maximum speed was about 4mph.
17:18:30 <elliott> In spite of these limitations on his first road trial of the three wheeler machine, making him arguably the first motorist, M. Cugnot hit a wall, becoming the first motorist to have an accident, and after several more experiments he scored the hat trick by becoming the first person to be arrested and imprisoned for dangerous driving.
17:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover> does it just subsume into the greater whole of french terribleness
17:26:44 <nortti> found this: http://satwcomic.com/driving
17:31:05 <Taneb> I can confirm Hexham Horseless Carriages is a shop that exists
17:31:16 <Taneb> Also, there's a steam rally in Corbridge or something
17:32:16 <Bike> http://www.tvr-hhc.co.uk/ they have a website. hell yes
17:32:33 <Bike> lol established in 1996
17:32:56 <nortti> why woud they name it that then?
17:33:33 <elliott> rich people don't know the word "car"
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17:33:43 <Bike> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMEoR2ECMAAZ2c2.jpg stupid future
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17:49:43 <HackEgo> BiLlYzAnE: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
17:51:20 <oerjan> `emoclew I think we had this one
17:51:23 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :eno :siht :dah :ew :kniht :I
17:57:38 <elliott> does anyone mind if I bring another lambdabot in here?
17:58:19 <elliott> I nominate oerjan to answer.
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17:58:27 <oerjan> @id The more the merrier!
17:58:46 -!- mubot has joined.
17:58:58 <mubot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> t0' with actual type `()'
17:59:03 <mubot> No instance for (Test.QuickCheck.Property.Testable prop0)
17:59:08 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> a0))
17:59:09 <mubot> arising from a use of `M19171...
17:59:12 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> a0))
17:59:12 <mubot> arising from a use of `M95925...
17:59:13 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
17:59:25 <kappabot> unrecognized option `--loadfile='
17:59:26 <kappabot> Usage: mueval [OPTION...] --expression E...
17:59:28 <mubot> +++ OK, passed 1 tests.
18:00:02 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
18:00:16 <mubot> Plugin `eval' failed with: mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
18:00:16 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
18:00:36 -!- mubot has quit (Client Quit).
18:00:53 <oerjan> surprisingly different, those bots
18:01:05 <kappabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ()))
18:01:05 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
18:01:11 -!- mubot has joined.
18:01:16 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
18:01:38 <oerjan> lambdabot: you are _so_ out of date!
18:01:56 <elliott> oerjan: the order is lambdabot < kappabot < mubot in terms of age of code, I think.
18:02:02 <elliott> mubot is based on the fancy new split-up git lambdabot.
18:02:08 <elliott> (this means I had to patch it to get it to work.)
18:02:16 <elliott> shachaf: hi, I am interested in your Pristine.hs
18:02:31 <elliott> not enough of a race condition.
18:02:38 <mubot> You are in #esoteric..
18:02:43 <mubot> oerjan is in #esoteric..
18:03:13 -!- oerjan has left.
18:03:19 <mubot> I saw oerjan leaving #esoteric 6s ago.
18:03:24 <mubot> Consider it noted.
18:03:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:04:00 <mubot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
18:04:00 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
18:04:00 <kappabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
18:04:02 <mubot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search seen slap
18:04:02 <mubot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl url version vixen where
18:04:02 <lambdabot> activity babel base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval fact free fresh ft haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlinerc pl pointful poll pretty quote search
18:04:02 <kappabot> activity babel base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval fact free fresh ft haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlinerc pl pointful poll pretty quote search
18:04:02 <lambdabot> slap source spell state system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
18:04:03 <kappabot> slap source spell state system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version vixen where
18:04:06 <mubot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search seen slap
18:04:06 <mubot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl url version vixen where
18:04:15 <zzo38> Can you add a SQL extension into the wiki? For example if you have a article named "forty-two" and then you can write <SQL>CREATE TABLE "forty-two" ("X" INTEGER, "Y" TEXT);</SQL> and on other pages you can INSERT INTO "forty-two" and SELECT ... FROM "forty-two".
18:04:21 <elliott> but I'd have to recompile.
18:04:26 <elliott> also @djinn is broken on mine :(
18:04:28 <mubot> Djinn command failed: fd:10: hClose: resource vanished (Broken pipe)
18:04:28 <kappabot> No output from Djinn; installed?
18:04:47 -!- mubot has quit (Client Quit).
18:04:50 <zzo38> And then to make <SQL TEMPLATE="abcde">SELECT ...</SQL> in order to call a template with the results of a SELECT query.
18:08:28 -!- quintopia has joined.
18:10:38 -!- mubot has joined.
18:10:49 <mubot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search seen slap
18:10:49 <mubot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl url version where
18:11:05 <mubot> heparin PRC hepatic paprika heroic
18:11:09 <mubot> Friend fr end fr-end friend frond
18:11:22 <elliott> mubot: @pl \xs ys -> xs ++ ys
18:11:28 <mubot> (x:xs) ++ ys = x : (xs ++ ys)
18:11:28 <mubot> xs ++ ys = foldr (:) ys xs
18:11:35 <mubot> *** "test" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:11:36 <mubot> n 1: trying something to find out about it; "a sample for ten
18:11:36 <mubot> days free trial"; "a trial of progesterone failed to
18:11:36 <mubot> relieve the pain" [syn: {trial}, {trial run}, {test},
18:11:57 <mubot> The natural numbers. Also called the whole numbers, the counting numbers or ...
18:13:18 <elliott> oerjan: I assign you to figure out more ways to test it, hth.
18:13:24 <elliott> for instance you could check that @check works properly!
18:15:50 <elliott> huh, it responds to > now?
18:15:57 <lambdabot> fd:9: commitBuffer: invalid argument (invalid character)
18:15:57 <mubot> lexical error at character '\187'
18:15:59 <kappabot> lexical error at character '\187'
18:16:07 <elliott> oh, I guess > is just broken in /msg
18:17:22 <oerjan> i think :t and :k used to be broken in /msg too
18:18:13 <oerjan> @check \x y -> x+y == y+x
18:18:13 <kappabot> unrecognized option `--loadfile='
18:18:13 <kappabot> Usage: mueval [OPTION...] --expression E...
18:18:13 <mubot> No instance for (Test.QuickCheck.Arbitrary.Arbitrary a0)
18:18:13 <mubot> arising from a ...
18:18:31 <oerjan> @check \x y -> x+y == y+(x::Int)
18:18:32 <kappabot> unrecognized option `--loadfile='
18:18:32 <kappabot> Usage: mueval [OPTION...] --expression E...
18:18:34 <mubot> +++ OK, passed 100 tests.
18:18:59 <elliott> kappabot: @run myquickcheck
18:19:00 <kappabot> Ambiguous type variable `prop0' in the constraints:
18:19:08 <elliott> shachaf: ^ kappabot's @run is impure
18:19:29 <Sgeo> Does anyone actually play Liquid War online?
18:19:56 <oerjan> kappabot: @run print "hi"
18:19:57 <kappabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ()))
18:20:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: absolutely no one hth
18:21:20 <Sgeo> Because I would try to get Liquid War 6 working if it meant I could play against people
18:21:31 <Sgeo> And be crushed even worse than the medium strength AI crushes me
18:21:41 <oerjan> (disclaimer: previous answer pulled from thin air.)
18:22:12 <oerjan> to be crushed like no one has been crushed before
18:27:05 <Sgeo> I'll try to get LW6 woking
18:29:29 <shachaf> imo we need some more greek letter bots
18:30:20 <mubot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
18:30:20 <kappabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
18:30:20 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
18:30:21 <kappabot> Perhaps you meant `MR' (imported from ...
18:30:23 <mubot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
18:30:23 <kappabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
18:30:23 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
18:30:23 <kappabot> Perhaps you meant `MR' (imported from ...
18:30:32 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show
18:30:33 <mubot> (Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskel...
18:31:38 -!- sacje has joined.
18:31:39 <kappabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
18:32:16 <shachaf> Sounds like I've been deltabot with some missing functionality.
18:49:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:50:10 <elliott> http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/civil-disobedience-on-a-turkish-game-show/
18:50:10 <mubot> Title: Civil Disobedience on a Turkish Game Show - NYTimes.com, http://tinyurl.com/meafb9f
18:50:31 <elliott> shachaf: How did you disable that in kappabot?
18:50:53 <shachaf> I disabled it by doing nothing. hth
18:51:26 <Bike> no url title things here huh
18:53:57 <elliott> i will track down what is doing it
18:55:09 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
18:56:23 <elliott> "HaskellIrcPastePage", -- Ignore paste page
18:56:23 <elliott> "title of that page", -- Ignore others like the old me
18:57:56 <elliott> I wonder if I can fix :t not working with Unicode
18:58:15 -!- nooodl has joined.
18:58:25 <elliott> -- Rather than use subRegex, which is new to 6.4, we can remove comments
18:58:51 <elliott> shachaf: do you have any idea why :t fails at unicode
18:59:03 <kappabot> lexical error at character '\187'
18:59:20 <shachaf> because it goes via completely different mechanism from >
19:00:16 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:09:02 -!- mubot has joined.
19:10:25 <elliott> shachaf: challenge: figure out why mubot's username is what it is
19:11:13 <shachaf> is it because mu is on the other side of lambda
19:15:26 <olsner> according to today's news, someone's made a car "for young people who can't drive but are on the internet all the time"
19:16:10 <mubot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "text"
19:16:10 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "text"
19:16:10 <kappabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "text"
19:16:21 <elliott> @@ @type (@run text "a\rb")
19:16:23 <kappabot> The function `a' is applied to one argument,
19:16:23 <lambdabot> The function `a' is applied to one argument,
19:16:34 <elliott> @@ @type (@run text "123\r:q")
19:16:36 <kappabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `Expr'
19:16:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `Expr'
19:16:36 <kappabot> In the second argument of `(:)', namely `q'
19:16:36 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(:)', namely `q'
19:16:46 <Taneb> why do we have three lambdabots in the channel
19:16:47 <elliott> shachaf: looks like it gets treated as whitespace
19:16:49 <Bike> i'm glad we have three bots for this now
19:17:00 <mubot> elliott has a karma of 0
19:17:10 <elliott> since when do i have 42 karma
19:17:17 <elliott> @@ @type (@run text "123\r4")
19:17:18 <mubot> (Num (a -> t), Num a) => t
19:17:29 <kappabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
19:17:30 <kappabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
19:17:31 <olsner> there are 21 more greek letters that don't have bots yet, get cracking
19:17:32 <mubot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
19:17:45 <Bike> maybe he fucking didn't, bots, maybe he fucking didn't
19:17:46 <Taneb> elliott, NumInstances?
19:17:59 <Taneb> kappabot: @type views
19:17:59 <elliott> Taneb: look at the :t output
19:18:00 <kappabot> forall (p :: * -> * -> *) s (m :: * -> *) r a. (MonadReader s m, Profunctor p) => Overloading p (->) (Accessor r) s s a a -> p a r -> m r
19:18:21 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
19:18:26 <Taneb> elliott, I'd say that's reasonably consistent?
19:18:41 <elliott> 20:17:19 <kappabot> forall t. Num t => t
19:18:43 <elliott> 20:17:29 <kappabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
19:20:46 <nooodl> clearly we need a deadfish bot
19:31:18 -!- mubot has joined.
19:31:56 <shachaf> Thanks for messing up L.hs.
19:32:11 <elliott> you can't seriously expect things in L.hs to stay there
19:32:30 <shachaf> Well, I could before you @undefined.
19:32:53 <elliott> OK, time to find out what on earth weird is.
19:33:19 <elliott> loc = case aloc of [] -> Nick "freenode" "weird#"
19:33:22 <elliott> _ -> Nick (server msg) (tail aloc)
19:35:06 <mubot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
19:35:19 -!- kappabot has left.
19:35:24 <Fiora> https://twitter.com/PRISM_NSA oh gosh this is great
19:35:49 <Fiora> "Memo to Becky Schultz of Clearwater, FL: our data prove that your younger brother is not the most annoying person in the universe"
19:35:57 <Fiora> "Suggestions please: what font should we use for our now spin-off, http://snapchatbackup.com ? #PRISM20%TimeProjects"
19:36:20 <Fiora> "Second worst shift at #PRISM: reading YouTube comments, Worst shift at #PRISM: 4Chan duty"
19:38:35 <Fiora> "We are PRISM. We are actually anonymous. We are actually legion. We really, really do not forget. Accept us."
19:39:31 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1fzgxy/the_largest_free_thought_and_atheist_forum_in_the/
19:39:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hahahahaha
19:40:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i took a quick peek to point and laugh and apparently they're in the middle of a civil war
19:40:55 <elliott> from scrolling down it looks like this is because they removed comment images or something
19:40:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1fz8o0/how_ratheism_lost_the_gay_community/
19:41:05 <elliott> oh or they banned image posts
19:41:42 <Sgeo> Where was 4-D scrabble from the FRC advertised?
19:42:04 <Bike> something about memes?
19:42:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, they banned image posts, I think links that aren't images still work. So I guess it's manual removal of bad posts
19:42:06 <Bike> i heard it's fascist
19:42:07 <kmc> oh wow someone is trying to make /r/atheism not a total joke?
19:42:23 <Sgeo> kmc, because some mods got the founder of /r/atheism removed
19:42:29 <Sgeo> For inactivity
19:42:41 <elliott> of course sgeo knows about this already
19:42:46 <Bike> r atheism should just die, that would be good
19:43:06 <shachaf> Bike: how does it feel to oppress free thought
19:44:02 <Fiora> I think I'm mentally readnig this entire twitter in glados's voice
19:44:28 <Sgeo> I blame oerjan for getting me into nomics in the first place
19:44:41 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not oerjan, but whoever put up a thing on their page about 4-D scrabble
19:45:52 <shachaf> Bike: how will i turn pictures of neil degrasse tyson into karma now
19:46:01 <shachaf> why you gotta go and ruin it
19:46:23 <elliott> /r/PicturesOfNeilDegrasseTyson
19:46:31 <Bike> r/mildlyinteresting is good
19:46:36 <Bike> just kill all of reddit except that
19:46:42 <elliott> not for fans of neil degrasse tyson, just for fans of pictures of neil degrasse tyson
19:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (is /r/space still a sagan-tyson circlejerk? i hope you appreciate that i am not up to date)
19:47:08 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: until just now i have never been to /r/space
19:47:10 <Bike> Fiora: the prism thing is too depressing for me to find funny, i think >_>
19:47:27 <shachaf> Perhaps it's too funny for Fiora to find depressing.
19:47:38 <kmc> [picture of space] "fuck yeah science!" [does not understand first thing about science]
19:47:53 <kmc> perhaps it's too depressing /not/ to find funny!
19:48:08 <Bike> [picture of grad student covered in potato chips and ripped up grant proposals] fuck yeah science!
19:48:33 <kmc> http://gawker.com/the-nsa-sent-a-takedown-notice-over-my-custom-prism-log-512085836
19:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> did anyone see maddox's hilarious anti-fuck-yeah-science rant
19:49:02 <kmc> Bike: yeah that's more like it
19:49:20 <kmc> picture of grad student poking rats with a stick for 100 hours in a row
19:49:48 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10042004
19:50:00 <elliott> junior rat-poker only does it for 50 hours
19:50:05 <Bike> picture of grad student reading "the view from the left" for thirty hours straight
19:50:14 <Bike> poking at emacs ineffectually
19:51:08 <elliott> except I don't get money for it
19:51:11 <elliott> inb4 "neither do grad students"
19:52:14 -!- myname has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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19:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1fza8s/the_arguments_in_favor_of_the_new_moderation/
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19:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> "If 2 million people want to subscribe to /r/trueathiesm, then they will. Until then, r/trueatheism is not entitled to the 2 million subscriptions that r/atheism acquired fairly in the free market."
19:53:37 -!- Bike_ has joined.
19:53:56 <Fiora> Bike: I guess it's.... it's kind of depressing but like at this point it kind of feels like the only way to cope is gallows humor -_-
19:53:58 <Bike_> neither do grad students
19:54:18 <Bike_> Fiora: we could do like the turks and make video game references as we get shot
19:54:24 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:54:28 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:54:41 <elliott> do like the turks and be mechanical
19:55:15 <Bike> Fiora: http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18pu5c73wlb0ajpg/ku-xlarge.jpg "next is tanks"
19:55:40 <Bike> http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18pu5omzy3088jpg/ku-xlarge.jpg
19:55:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
19:56:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:56:44 <Bike> also http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18pu9o8gv7pumjpg/ku-medium.jpg because apparently someone stole a bulldozer and fucked up some riot tanks
19:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> hi i've invented a new brainfuck deriv-- nah i've done that already
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20:00:39 <mubot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
20:00:53 <mubot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test and 1 shrink):
20:01:13 <mubot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests and 1 shrink):
20:01:22 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0) arising from a use of `e_1'
20:01:28 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show
20:01:28 <mubot> (GHC.Base.String -> GHC....
20:01:37 <mubot> Show a => a -> IO ()
20:01:45 <elliott> why would it want a show instance for a?
20:01:49 <elliott> does it not have extended defaulting?
20:01:54 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
20:01:54 <mubot> arising from a use of `M194199338.sho...
20:02:21 <elliott> shachaf: any idea what's up here?
20:02:24 <elliott> can kappabot rejoin for tests?
20:02:44 <shachaf> I bet you don't have ExtendedDefaulting on?
20:02:49 -!- kappabot has joined.
20:02:53 <elliott> shachaf: right, I don't -- but do you? if so where
20:03:10 <kappabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ()))
20:03:29 <shachaf> How is mueval working for you, anyway?
20:04:49 <shachaf> Well, its UTF-8 was broken for me under 7.4.
20:04:56 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
20:05:10 -!- mubot has joined.
20:05:12 <mubot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
20:05:15 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0) arising from a use of `e_1'
20:05:25 <mubot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show
20:05:25 <mubot> (GHC.Base.String -> GHC....
20:05:29 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
20:05:37 <elliott> I like how it depends on show but doesn't use it
20:05:57 <myname> yeah, we totally need more bots here
20:08:45 <kappabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ()))
20:08:54 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:08:55 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
20:09:03 <elliott> shachaf: add a show instance for IO plz thx
20:09:06 <elliott> (or just "import ShowFun")
20:09:43 <elliott> shachaf: does kapapbot use SSL?
20:12:27 <Sgeo> SAPERLIPOPELEPET is an actual word
20:12:33 <Sgeo> (In French, but still)
20:13:27 <elliott> I suspect there is no point though
20:13:37 <shachaf> Well, it does use *my* Freenode password.
20:13:40 <elliott> I guess lambdabot's password is fairly valuable
20:13:46 <shachaf> To be fair, my IRC client also doesn't.
20:14:01 * elliott uses fancy SASL authentication
20:14:48 -!- kallisti has joined.
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20:20:48 <mubot> (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
20:20:49 <mubot> Not in scope: `foldMap'
20:20:49 <mubot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
20:20:49 <mubot> `Data.Foldable.foldMap' (imported from Data.Foldable),
20:20:52 <mubot> Couldn't find qualified module.
20:23:09 <mubot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search seen slap
20:23:09 <mubot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
20:24:27 <mubot> activity seconds. Find out where/how much the bot is being used
20:24:30 <mubot> 3*total 3*#esoteric
20:24:43 <elliott> shachaf: did you know this command existed?
20:25:05 <elliott> I wonder if lambdabot should really be running it.
20:25:07 <oerjan> <Sgeo> SAPERLIPOPELEPET is an actual word <-- please read more carefully hth
20:25:12 <elliott> seems like an undesirable infoleak
20:26:11 <mubot> Not enough privileges
20:26:50 <mubot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
20:26:55 <shachaf> mubot...........................................
20:27:15 <Sgeo> Showing results for SAPERLIPOPETTE
20:27:15 <Sgeo> Search instead for SAPERLIPOPELEPET
20:27:18 -!- Bike has joined.
20:28:36 <elliott> _ -> "I'm sorry Dave, I'm affraid I don't know that command"
20:29:18 <mubot> Not in scope: data constructor `N'
20:29:20 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
20:29:29 -!- mubot has joined.
20:29:37 <mubot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
20:29:37 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
20:29:37 <kappabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
20:29:46 <Sgeo> mubot, @SAPERLIPOPELEPET
20:29:46 <mubot> Unknown command, try @list
20:29:46 <Bike> that's pretty frequent
20:29:50 <elliott> shachaf: I went to fix @faq
20:29:55 <elliott> shachaf: but then I also found myself adding @get-shachaf
20:30:00 <mubot> Unknown command, try @list
20:30:01 <elliott> and decided it would be best to quit while I was ahead
20:30:10 <shachaf> who wants to ?where ?where
20:30:31 <elliott> in fact shachaf, can you try it out?
20:30:37 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:38 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:38 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:38 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:38 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:39 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:41 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:43 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:45 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:47 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:48 -!- kappabot has left.
20:30:49 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:51 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:54 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:55 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
20:30:57 <mubot> Plugin `where' failed with: <<timeout>>
20:30:59 <mubot> Plugin `where' failed with: <<timeout>>
20:31:17 <elliott> 21:30:44 !lindbohm.freenode.net *** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding
20:31:21 <elliott> i'm being oppressed for running mubot
20:32:01 <elliott> oerjan: can you test @unlambda
20:32:52 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:33:05 <mubot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "Not in scope: `unsafeCoerce'\n"
20:33:05 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "Not in scope: `unsafeCoerce'\n\n"
20:33:11 <shachaf> @free unsafeCoerce :: a -> b
20:33:11 <mubot> g . unsafeCoerce = unsafeCoerce . f
20:33:12 <lambdabot> g . unsafeCoerce = unsafeCoerce . f
20:33:25 <shachaf> unsafeCoerce is v. powerful
20:33:48 <elliott> @free safeCoerce :: a -> ()
20:33:48 <mubot> safeCoerce = safeCoerce . f
20:34:12 <mubot> f undefined = undefined
20:35:12 <shachaf> i heard oerjan wrote the @unlambda interpreter........................................................
20:35:29 <shachaf> oerjan: negativity free yourself etc
20:35:29 <oerjan> shachaf: it may descend from one i wrote, yes
20:35:40 <elliott> apparently gwern uploaded oerjan's http://hackage.haskell.org/package/unlambda
20:37:10 <oerjan> i am pretty sure there were other unlambda interpreters in haskell when i wrote mine, though
20:37:35 <elliott> shachaf: huh, we have Is in lambdabot now?
20:38:39 <shachaf> Yep, I bugged Cale to add it.
20:39:31 <zzo38> I was trying to do something with sequent logic once, I made up something, and then from what I made seems unable to make (a |- a) although I was able to make ((a -> b) |- (a -> b)).
20:57:55 <Bike> so apparently the PRISM leaker is a ron paul supporter. where's your god now leftists
20:58:46 <elliott> that sounds like the least surprising thing ever
20:59:10 <Fiora> I'm now imagining the NSA doing a paranoid sweep to find every employee who's ever posted pro-ron-paul things and fire them
20:59:27 <Bike> we know his name though, and he doesn't work for them any more, so.
20:59:38 <elliott> well, it's not like the NSA would want a ron paul supporter anyway, most likely.
20:59:48 <Bike> he was a contractor
21:00:27 <Bike> livin' large in HK
21:04:05 <Sgeo> Huh. The FRC taught me a bit of history, that I had previously assumed was fictitious
21:04:15 <Sgeo> "In foggy London he succeeds in convincing the brothers (who in this
21:04:15 <Sgeo> timeline have Japanese ancestors!) to include in the statutes of the
21:04:15 <Sgeo> bank, that they will never hire a certain Nick Leeson. More than 200
21:04:15 <Sgeo> years later, the latter does not get a job with Baring's.
21:04:15 <Sgeo> Consequently he does not have the occasion to swindle the bank out of
21:04:16 <Sgeo> the 1000 million dollars that were subsequently used to finance the Time
21:04:27 <Sgeo> That was a bad idea'
21:04:46 <Sgeo> There really was a Nick Leeson at Baring's Bank
21:07:36 <Bike> did he swindle a billion dollars?
21:07:56 -!- carado has quit (Read error: No route to host).
21:08:37 <Sgeo> He did something criminal
21:08:57 <Sgeo> But I think it was more gambling with the bank's money than actually stealing it
21:09:03 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Leeson
21:09:43 -!- carado has joined.
21:10:29 <Bike> oh, i've heard of this guy.
21:13:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fantasy rules committee
21:13:08 <elliott> nomic-like game played since the stone age
21:13:13 <elliott> oerjan played in it once upon a time
21:14:49 <oerjan> i saved it from the mammoths
21:15:12 <Sgeo> http://sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/
21:15:15 <Sgeo> Classic rounds
21:15:49 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
21:17:38 <oerjan> oh apparently i was the judge for that 4d scrabble round
21:20:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:22:40 <Koen__> oh yeah I remember that one
21:22:51 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
21:23:03 -!- mubot has joined.
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21:24:22 -!- Koen__ has changed nick to Koen_.
21:24:56 -!- mubot has quit (Client Quit).
21:25:07 <kmc> where's kappabot?!?
21:25:08 -!- mubot has joined.
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21:31:06 -!- mubot has joined.
21:31:15 <elliott> kmc: challenge: figure out why mubot's username is what it is
21:31:59 <kmc> is it the least fixed bot
21:32:04 <kmc> oh username not nick
21:38:30 <Sgeo> The FRC once got me back into Haskell
21:38:37 <Sgeo> Don't remember when that was
21:38:48 <Sgeo> But I wrote a short little FLogic-ish thing
21:39:19 <kmc> is it short for Debian-Exim?
21:39:36 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
21:39:53 -!- mubot has joined.
21:40:14 <kmc> is it just a useful 'nobody' user?
21:40:26 <kmc> oh does debian have a fake inetd that responds with that?
21:40:40 <kmc> whateverthefuckd
21:40:50 <kmc> oh well I don't know then
21:41:11 <elliott> the UID it runs as in the chroot happens to overlap with the UID of Debian-exim in the outer system
21:41:16 <elliott> and the identd runs outside of the chroot
21:41:30 <elliott> this also means "ps" and "top" think that Debian-exim is running it
21:41:53 <kmc> why a chroot
21:43:08 -!- jago25_98 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:44:17 <elliott> kmc: well, have you ever read lambdabot's source coe
21:44:29 <elliott> ":t" works by running yr input thru a regexp and piping it to ghci
21:44:43 -!- mubot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:44:56 <shachaf> hey it's not just a regexp
21:45:04 <elliott> Bike: actually it's a recursive function because the regexp function doesn't work in GHC <6.4
21:45:09 <elliott> note: GHC 6.4 was released like a hundred years ago
21:45:15 <Bike> ok that sounds good
21:45:16 <elliott> stripComments ('\n':_) = [] -- drop any newwline and rest. *security*
21:45:21 <shachaf> stripComments ('\n':_) = [] -- drop any newwline and rest. *security*
21:45:31 <Bike> does it say "security" in the comment
21:45:47 <elliott> it's where the security goes
21:45:54 <elliott> you write them and save a little bit left for the security
21:48:45 -!- Lumpio_ has changed nick to Lumpio-.
21:53:23 <kmc> elliott: vanilla Linux chroots are shit for security
21:53:26 <kmc> better than nothing I suppose
22:00:48 <kmc> we're whalers on the moon, we carry a harpoon
22:01:41 <elliott> kmc: well I don't know the details
22:01:45 <olsner> there aren't any whales in space so we have to bring whale oil from earth, obviously
22:01:50 <elliott> is it really so bad without a root escalation vuln?
22:02:27 <shachaf> elliott: these days you have to run a vm inside a vm to get any security
22:02:46 <elliott> like, the security hole I anticipate is on the order of "you get to give input, most likely only one line, to GHCi"
22:03:06 <kmc> well there are lots of ways for a process in a chroot to mess with processes outside a chroot
22:03:09 <kmc> ptrace etc
22:03:21 <elliott> but I don't know how much /proc leaks to another user
22:03:52 <elliott> kmc: also, I won't die if someone escapes the chroot, they'll end up as an unprivileged user
22:04:06 <elliott> at worst they'll read private stuff in my $HOME, which I should probably make not world-readable
22:04:15 <elliott> admittedly if they escape it they probably have a root escalation vuln
22:05:45 <elliott> kmc: anyway what is your recommendation? run the whole thing in UMLBox?
22:06:57 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:07:46 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:07:52 <shachaf> my recommendation is to make yourself fully aware of the risks and then not care about them
22:08:44 <olsner> an easier way is to skip directly to not caring
22:08:49 -!- Bike has joined.
22:08:58 <kmc> those are both p. good recommendations
22:08:58 <olsner> as an added bonus, that's usually the state you start out in
22:09:06 <shachaf> there's a way you go about these things
22:09:08 <kmc> elliott: UMLBox is cool but UML scares me a bit because it's not used much anymore
22:09:50 <kmc> elliott: grsec kernels have enhanced chroots, and there's also the 'namespaces' stuff in Linux (user namespacess, proecess namespacess, etc), and there's http://lxc.sourceforge.net/ and http://openvz.org/Main_Page and such
22:09:56 <kmc> or you could use "real" virtualization
22:10:04 <kmc> i don't know the area well enough to recommend one over another
22:10:07 <kmc> but those are some options
22:10:24 <kmc> "real" virtualization will protect you from root escalation vulnerabilities, which are common in Linux
22:10:34 <kmc> it doesn't protect you from hypervisor exploits of course, but \rainbow{defense in depth}
22:11:52 <elliott> kmc: these sound like a lot of work
22:11:58 <elliott> how about I just ask jesus to not let it go wrong
22:12:14 <elliott> i mean, theoretically this software is meant to be secure enough to run as-is
22:12:23 <elliott> i just don't trust that half of it wasn't written by a complete bozo
22:12:49 <shachaf> yay, my time spent convincing elliott not to trust lambdabot was useful
22:13:33 <olsner> useful how exactly? now he's wasting time doing all this security thinking
22:14:12 <Bike> i can't see "defense in depth" without thinking of maginot. is this bad y/n
22:14:18 <shachaf> well my goal is to waste time
22:14:36 <Sgeo> I wonder when I'll start having nostalgia for Cablevision's offices
22:15:43 <Bike> He's just thinking ahead.
22:15:53 <Sgeo> In the future one of those two will presumably happen, unless I spend my entire life working there
22:16:14 <Bike> The company could also be destroyed.
22:17:41 <olsner> Bike: not sure how much depth you had in mind, but the maginot line was "20 to 25 km" deep according to wikipedia
22:17:59 <Bike> how deep are hypervisors kmc
22:18:07 <Sgeo> Things that I do now, in the present day, will eventually become nostalgic for me
22:18:20 <olsner> (then again, leaving lots of other options around, such as "take the long way around, attack anyway")
22:18:21 <Sgeo> Assuming I don't die in the near future
22:18:30 <Bike> or you could be brain damaged.
22:18:41 <shachaf> Or you could just not be nostalgic for it.
22:18:41 <Bike> also: i have sometimes done things and do not feel nostalgic about them. 'what gives'
22:19:07 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
22:19:22 <shachaf> wow our lambdabottage is dangerously low
22:19:35 -!- kappabot has joined.
22:19:39 <oerjan> <shachaf> there's a way you go about these things <-- i surely thought this was a quote (from "yes, prime minister" perhaps?) but i cannot find it
22:19:43 <Phantom_Hoover> what if sgeo stops being nostalgic about everything and he gets nostalgic about the nostalgia
22:20:02 <olsner> hypervisors seem more fiddly to get right than the normal memory protection and task isolation stuff that general OSes try so hard to get right
22:20:21 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, I didn't think of it as a quote, but the general idea could easily be derived from Yes, (Prime )?Minister
22:22:18 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:22:46 -!- mubot has joined.
22:22:57 <mubot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
22:23:40 <mubot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:23:40 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:24:05 <oerjan> lambdabot: hey get in line!
22:26:09 <lambdabot> ##crypto ##freebsd ##logic ##proggit ##unavailable ##villagegreen #agda #codez #darcs #diagrams #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #happs #
22:26:09 <lambdabot> haskell #haskell-blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game #haskell-gsoc #haskell-in-depth #haskell-lens #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell.au #haskell.cz #
22:26:09 <lambdabot> haskell.de #haskell.dut #haskell.es #haskell.se #haskell.tw #learnanycomputerlanguage #ledger #macosx #macosxdev #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #snapframework #tanuki #teamunix #
22:26:53 <Bike> #unicycling? i feel betrayed
22:28:52 <shachaf> oerjan: oh man good old yes minister
22:29:00 <mubot> I've got a card in my hole.
22:29:03 <mubot> And furthermore, my bowling average is unimpeachable!!!
22:30:26 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
22:30:36 -!- mubot has joined.
22:32:54 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: Prelude.head: empty list
22:32:54 <kappabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: Prelude.head: empty list
22:33:07 <Bike> #unicycling? i feel betrayed
22:33:11 <Sgeo> @thisistotalgibbeish
22:33:11 <mubot> Unknown command, try @list
22:33:16 <Bike> imagine that i said the other thing
22:33:19 <Sgeo> Anyone want to @list ?
22:33:20 <Bike> the one that i meant to say
22:33:26 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:26 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:26 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:27 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:27 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:28 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:30 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:32 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:34 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:36 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:38 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:40 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:42 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:44 <mubot> I know nothing about ?where.
22:33:46 <mubot> Plugin `where' failed with: <<timeout>>
22:33:54 <elliott> fyi when you do that freenode drops my messages
22:33:58 <oerjan> shachaf: i got to see the new version recently. felt nostalgic for the old one. the new sir Humphrey is so unsympathetic...
22:33:59 <Bike> i thought you fixed it sorry
22:34:04 <elliott> it's not even a bug in my bot!
22:34:22 <Sgeo> Bots are supposed to notice instead of msg when replying, right?
22:34:22 <Bike> they're like practically thes ame
22:34:31 <Bike> Sgeo: yeah but nobody does that ever
22:34:44 <elliott> preflex does it but only in some channels
22:36:23 <oerjan> mubot: ?where+ ?where ?where ?where
22:36:39 <elliott> mubot: ?where+ ?where no ?where
22:37:04 <oerjan> elliott: hey what do you have against exponential blowup you scounderl
22:37:22 <elliott> i don't think there's anything exponential about it hth
22:37:57 <oerjan> elliott: with 3 bots there is hth
22:40:00 <oerjan> also why does it drop _your_ messages
22:40:07 <Bike> same connection probably
22:40:24 <Bike> so if i do ?where ?where again will it not spam
22:40:27 <oerjan> you can have two nicks on the same connection?
22:43:00 <shachaf> oerjan: There's a new version?
22:43:09 <elliott> oerjan: because same connection
22:43:23 <elliott> presumably because otherwise you could just run 100 spambots on the same server
22:43:33 <elliott> and have them each say one line
22:43:43 <oerjan> shachaf: or an old one, dependent on which one you actually know :P
22:45:18 <oerjan> nah the new one is apparently very new, from this year
22:46:52 <oerjan> "It was the favourite television programme of the then Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Margaret Thatcher."
22:48:24 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:52 <shachaf> ‘The public,' said Sir Humphrey, ‘do not know anything about wasting public money. We are the experts.'
22:50:10 <shachaf> ‘We'll have to do an O & M,' I said. [Organisation and Method Study - Ed.] ‘See how many we can do without.'
22:50:14 <shachaf> ‘We did one of those last year,' said Sir Humphrey blandly. ‘And we discovered we needed another five hundred people. However, Minister, we could always close your Bureaucratic Watchdog Department.'1
22:56:12 <shachaf> At last Humphrey decided to make his meaning clear. ‘When the chips are down, Minister, and the balloon goes up and the lights go out . . . there has to be somewhere to carry on government, even if everything else stops.’
22:56:16 <shachaf> I considered this carefully for a few moments. ‘Why?’ I asked.
22:56:19 <shachaf> Humphrey appeared to be absolutely staggered by this question. He explained to me, as if I were a backward five-year-old, ‘Government doesn’t stop merely because the country’s been destroyed. Annihilation is bad enough, without anarchy to make it even worse.’
23:00:05 -!- fizzie has joined.
23:01:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
23:02:03 -!- fungot has joined.
23:02:09 <oerjan> our long dark days of fungotlessness are over!
23:02:09 <fungot> oerjan: times change, and 2 for fnord
23:02:34 <fungot> olsner: some cases, it can be avoided. the contents are in ascii?
23:02:36 <HackEgo> fungot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:02:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:02:48 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
23:03:01 <fungot> shachaf: never!! kids will be boarding the train to scarytowne at my own pace, dromiceiomimus. we look happy. look, i'm going to the docks right syntax to get ourselves moving. no thanks, chuckles, but there's a rude jerk, and then they both said the next few days were going to me, the omniscient. the dude has to sleep! superman could laser him from orbit while he's having nappy times! enter only if you have a valid passport to
23:04:49 <oerjan> ^def where ul (@where @where)S
23:04:58 <fizzie> For the record: I was away (France, Switzerland, very briefly Italy) for June 4th through (late) June 9th, so of course the ISP handling my home decided to mangle ("yeah, the routing info is all wrong, provisioned to the wrong port" said the 24/7 support guy when I called an hour ago) the connection around noon of June 4th.
23:05:12 <shachaf> 16:04 <bz> I JUST WANT TO XOR TWO INTEGERS
23:05:20 <shachaf> kmc: look what these challenges have brought to us
23:05:26 <elliott> fizzie: your ISP has support guys who know what routing info is?
23:05:39 <Bike> xor is Hard, man
23:05:40 <kmc> it's like a PROJECT EULER but for CRYPTOGRAPHY
23:05:42 <oerjan> fungot: you don't seem well
23:05:42 <fungot> oerjan: this cabin is a front! and maybe on the back sometimes that i am a good friend, t-rex, but i already do! i have a friend, of my own age, you get to call all these " dog days" of summer.
23:05:45 <fizzie> elliott: Apparently the night staff doesn't involve any first-tier support people.
23:05:46 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:05:47 <elliott> jerkcity version: I JUST WANT TO XOR TWO INTEGERS / OR COCKS
23:05:48 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping
23:05:51 <mubot> I'm having a tax-deductible experience! I need an energy crunch!!
23:05:52 <kappabot> Is this an out-take from the "BRADY BUNCH"?
23:05:58 <kmc> we are going at warp 10 here
23:06:00 <mubot> I don't know WHY I said that ... I think it came from the FILLINGS in
23:06:00 <mubot> my read molars ...
23:06:01 <Bike> "this cabin is a front! and maybe on the back sometimes" not bad
23:06:03 <oerjan> ^def where ul (@where @where)S
23:06:06 <kmc> ETOOMANYBOTS
23:06:13 <fizzie> oerjan: It was The Usual Bug.
23:06:18 <kmc> > text "hi fungot"
23:06:18 <fungot> kmc: me! i do. " merry? you're poor enough, i could get a completely different adult down, so the whole deal into my computer's cd tray!
23:06:18 <lambdabot> geekoid says: the problem with wikipedia is that it works in practice, but not in theory.
23:06:18 <kappabot> Miod says: [On the vax] How many processors come with a built-in instruction which computes polynomials of degrees up to 31?
23:06:18 <fungot> mubot: and i, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes lately
23:06:19 <fungot> kappabot: more so than usual, t-rex, that going shopping was your default activity? we'd never get anything you want, but want what you do. it's so easy, but nobody's that impressed when you tell them you think they're dating the wrong person?
23:06:25 <Bike> my god, pure ideology
23:06:44 <fizzie> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/XTSO as seen by fungot.
23:06:44 <fungot> fizzie: but t-rex, you can't play the game optimally! and assuming that in a man... or a woman, dromiceiomimus!
23:06:50 <oerjan> ^def where ul (@where @nowhere)S
23:06:51 <fungot> shachaf: to the last, i will grapple with thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee
23:07:08 <elliott> i think fungot wants to stab shachaf
23:07:08 <fungot> shac:elliott: that you all for them, i have come up with a new saddest thing ever!!... which is also nice, until a really attractive friend of theirs shows, interviews, documentaries about me, make new friends, and start a life of lies?
23:07:17 <oerjan> kappabot: @where+ @nowhere @where @somewhere
23:07:30 <oerjan> mubot: @where+ @somewhere @where @where
23:07:30 <mubot> It is forever etched in my memory.
23:08:20 <oerjan> lambdabot: @where+ @where ^where @where
23:08:38 <oerjan> (also, horribly wrong)
23:08:49 <fizzie> It's like looking at someone setting up one of those domino piece things.
23:09:23 <oerjan> mubot: @where+ @somewhere ^where @where
23:09:23 <mubot> I will never forget.
23:09:36 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:10:00 <oerjan> gah i'm hopelessly confused now
23:10:11 <elliott> why the hell isn't this working
23:11:18 <olsner> so doing something like @where @nowhere or ^where will start a new botloop?
23:11:50 -!- carado has joined.
23:12:35 <oerjan> lambdabot: @where+ @where @where @nowhere
23:12:55 <oerjan> ^def where ul (@where @where)S
23:13:18 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:13:28 <oerjan> ^where anything, really?
23:13:28 <mubot> I know nothing about @where.
23:14:46 <oerjan> lambdabot adds a space... D:
23:15:16 <olsner> it didn't add a space last time though?
23:17:22 <elliott> probably it special-cases @.
23:19:03 -!- mubot has quit (Quit: requested).
23:19:13 -!- mubot has joined.
23:19:25 <elliott> wtf. it suddenly started working
23:21:13 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:22:16 <oerjan> lambdabot: @where+ @where ?where ?nowhere
23:22:53 <oerjan> kappabot: @where+ ?nowhere ?where @somewhere
23:22:53 -!- carado has joined.
23:23:01 <mubot> I know nothing about @where.
23:23:01 <mubot> I know nothing about ?nowhere.
23:23:02 <mubot> I know nothing about @where.
23:23:02 <mubot> I know nothing about ?nowhere.
23:23:05 <mubot> I know nothing about @where.
23:23:07 <mubot> I know nothing about ?nowhere.
23:23:11 <mubot> I know nothing about @where.
23:23:13 <mubot> I know nothing about ?nowhere.
23:23:17 <mubot> I know nothing about @where.
23:23:19 <mubot> I know nothing about ?nowhere.
23:23:25 <mubot> I know nothing about @where.
23:25:51 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:26:17 <oerjan> i assume. hard to tell in that mess.
23:26:53 <olsner> looks like if lambdabot knew about @somewhere and mubot about ?nowhere, it would've worked more
23:26:59 <Bike> ok but for real why do we have all these bots
23:27:08 <elliott> we have lambdabot because lambdabot is great
23:27:10 <elliott> we have kappabot because of shachaf
23:27:12 <elliott> we have mubot because of me
23:27:21 <oerjan> see? easily explained.
23:27:21 <Bike> so, you and shachaf suck?
23:27:41 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:28:00 <kmc> nearing the omega point
23:28:47 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:28:56 <oerjan> kmc: hey, no skipping greek letters!
23:31:03 -!- nooga has joined.
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23:31:15 <Sgeo> @tell elliott hi
23:31:15 <mubot> Consider it noted.
23:31:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:31:26 <kappabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg kappabot @messages' to read it.
23:31:32 <elliott> hmm, why did mubot not respond?
23:31:49 <elliott> shachaf: can you try @messages?
23:32:05 <elliott> 00:31:26 <mubot> You have 1 new message. '/msg mubot @messages' to read it.
23:32:09 <mubot> You can tell yourself!
23:32:09 * ion is tempted to @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo, but he won’t.
23:32:13 <elliott> ion: can you @tell me something
23:32:24 <Sgeo> @tell elliott something
23:32:24 <mubot> Consider it noted.
23:32:27 <ion> @tell elliott The computer says no.
23:32:27 <mubot> Consider it noted.
23:32:27 <Bike> @tell elliott this is stupid
23:32:27 <mubot> Consider it noted.
23:32:30 <lambdabot> ion said 3s ago: The computer says no.
23:32:30 <kappabot> ion said 3s ago: The computer says no.
23:32:30 <kappabot> Bike said 3s ago: this is stupid
23:32:52 <Bike> right, i'm using memoserv from now on
23:34:24 <oerjan> lambdabot: @tell Bike you can restrict it to one bot hth
23:34:57 <ion> lambdabot: tell ion Is a redundant command prefix needed?
23:35:19 <Bike> what, not even @roll or something?
23:35:19 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:35:23 <Bike> lambdabot: fuck yourself
23:35:31 <oerjan> elliott: um you want to have commands with no prefix?
23:35:43 <elliott> oerjan: this is in the default git lambdabot.
23:35:58 <elliott> looks like it only works when your entire message is a roll
23:36:10 <Bike> do people play D&D with lambda bot
23:36:10 <elliott> ok how do i get this fucking numberwang plugin to trigger
23:36:36 <mubot> Unknown command, try @list
23:37:26 <mubot> Spelling nazi engaged.
23:37:30 <mubot> Did you mean help, hep or Heep?
23:37:37 <elliott> wow, stupidest bot mode ever
23:37:39 <mubot> Did you mean lambda bot, lambda-bot, lambda, lambdas or lambda's?
23:37:44 <mubot> Did you mean kappa bot, kappa-bot, jabot, Cabot or kaput?
23:37:52 <Bike> i'm going to die.
23:37:59 <mubot> Did you mean numbering, numbing, Nibelung, numbness or Namibian?
23:37:59 <kappabot> Did you mean numbering, numberings or numbing?
23:37:59 <mubot> Did you mean numbering or lumbering's?
23:38:15 <elliott> as they say: don't be stupid / be a smarty / come on and join the nazi party.
23:38:17 <Bike> should i even ask why they're all distinct. or why mubot responded twice.
23:38:17 <mubot> Did you mean mu bot, mu-bot, Minot, bot or mot?
23:38:17 <kappabot> Did you mean mu bot, mu-bot, Minot, bot or mot?
23:38:22 <mubot> Did you mean Numbering or Lumbering's?
23:38:27 <Bike> Good job, mubot.
23:38:27 <mubot> Did you mean mu bot, mu-bot, Minot, bot or mot?
23:38:27 <kappabot> Did you mean mu bot, mu-bot, Minot, bot or mot?
23:38:34 <kappabot> Did you mean appellant, applicant, opalescent, adolescent or Appleseed?
23:38:36 <elliott> should leave these on forever
23:38:47 <Bike> I hate you. I hate life. I hate everything
23:38:48 <ion> nazi-on is channel-specific?
23:38:48 <mubot> Did you mean Nazi, Nazis, NZ, Nair or naif?
23:38:48 <kappabot> Did you mean Nazi, Nazis, Nani, Nari or Nazi's?
23:38:48 <mubot> Did you mean Nan, Mani, Bani, Nazi or Nan's?
23:38:52 <Bike> elliott: i hate you
23:38:53 <mubot> Did you mean Elliott, Elliot, Eliot, Elliott's or Elliot's?
23:38:53 <kappabot> Did you mean Elliott, Elliot, Eliot, Ellette or Elliott's?
23:38:53 <mubot> Did you mean Elliott, Elate, Elite, Elliot or Gillette?
23:38:57 <mubot> Spelling nazi disengaged.
23:39:16 <elliott> ion: it seems like actually no
23:39:20 <elliott> but also it seems like lambdabot didn't respond to any of it
23:39:33 <ion> Oh, indeed.
23:39:35 <mubot> You don't have any messages
23:39:35 <kappabot> You don't have any new messages.
23:39:46 <Sgeo> ) <'I feel lonely'
23:39:46 <jconn> Sgeo: +-------------+
23:39:46 <jconn> Sgeo: |I feel lonely|
23:39:46 <jconn> Sgeo: +-------------+
23:40:53 <ion> shachaf: Did you mean massages, messengers, messuages or missayings?
23:41:18 <Bike> let's see. clog, egobot, fungot, glogbot, glogbackup, HackEgo, jconn, kappabot, lambdabot, mubot. that's a lotta bots.
23:41:18 <fungot> Bike: are you in this house, god? i am: up next, we have a man who is a push-over. besides, their interiors are scaled for adults with problems! everybody likes bears, with post dessert?
23:41:30 <Bike> we're like 1/7 bots.
23:42:03 <ion> I wonder if bots will take over the channel from humans one day?
23:45:50 <ion> Someone should make lambdabot run newStdGen when mueval is invoked and pass the result as a pure value to the mueval environment. (I probably can’t be arsed even to install a local lambdabot instance, not to mention hacking on it.)
23:46:26 <elliott> ion: isn't access to quickcheck and OEIS enough for you?
23:48:22 <oerjan> Bike: hey onbotti and metasepia aren't here
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23:49:25 <oerjan> i wonder why it responds to the channel name
23:49:49 <Bike> it's a statement about ni hil ism
23:50:22 <oerjan> bestiality is the best, it's in the name
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00:10:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oh for fuck's sake there are MULTIPLE fast fourier transforms!
00:11:11 <Bike> 2 fast 2 fourier
00:12:35 <kmc> IF X <> Y THEN GOTO 20
00:13:38 <Bike> did that thing eat the "X" D:
00:13:46 <ion> LESS-THAN ABOVE SLANTED EQUAL ABOVE GREATER-THAN ABOVE SLANTED EQUAL
00:14:20 <shachaf> well i have two slanted equals so pretend they overlap
00:14:29 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: probably not
00:15:15 <kmc> Bike: you should tweet "2 Fast 2 Fourier" and I will retweet it and then we will both become more popular on the Internet
00:15:21 <kmc> v. important
00:15:26 <shachaf> hey you should retweet my tweets
00:15:43 <Bike> my last tweet was uh, a report on the US food stamp program
00:15:47 <Bike> i gotta keep up the theme!!!
00:15:48 <kmc> i retweeted all of your tweets shachaf
00:15:56 <shachaf> kmc: you haven't retweeted any of them
00:16:16 <elliott> kmc: for every tweet shachaf made, you didn't retweet t
00:16:32 <Bike> let's not bring quantification into this, we're all friends here
00:16:45 <shachaf> you (haven't retweeted) all of them, *and* you haven't (retweeted any of them)
00:18:26 <elliott> main is usually sometimes functional
00:18:37 <shachaf> main is usually san francisco
00:19:15 <oerjan> why can't i get to the logs...
00:19:57 <ion> </usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt awk --field-separator=';' '{print length($2), $1, $2}' | sort -rn | less
00:20:21 <ion> ᾯ GREEK CAPITAL LETTER OMEGA WITH DASIA AND PERISPOMENI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI
00:20:43 <ion> ⚕ DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB LEFT BESIDE DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB RIGHT
00:20:59 <Bike> shachaf's poetic masterpiece.
00:21:06 <Bike> Stop being upset.
00:21:16 <elliott> im happy at being upset :')
00:21:19 <oerjan> that first one looks like a recipe
00:21:29 <oerjan> with strange greek herbs
00:21:47 <ion> Legalize prosgegrammeni
00:22:45 <ion> U+1F402 OX
00:23:39 * kmc installs unicode-data immediately
00:24:59 <Bike> i need some non-heteronormative spam
00:25:04 <kmc> my awk doesn't have --field-separator :(
00:25:20 <ion> kmc: BEGIN { FS=";" }
00:25:42 <kmc> perl -F';' -lane 'print length($F[1]), " ", $F[0], " ", $F[1]' < /usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt | sort -rn | less
00:25:57 <shachaf> /usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt: no such file or directory
00:26:17 <elliott> sudo rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
00:26:44 <kmc> biggest one for me:
00:26:45 <kmc> ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
00:26:49 <kmc> uighur please
00:27:20 <Bike> Wait, is it uighur or kirghiz.
00:27:39 <Bike> those are like pretty different, aren't they
00:27:56 <kmc> maybe both
00:28:07 <ion> perl -F';' -lane 'print "@{[length($F[1]), $F[0], $F[1]]}"' </usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt
00:28:17 <kmc> what is this @{..} wizardry
00:28:40 <Bike> "A Pinyin-derived Latin-based alphabet (with additional letters borrowed from Cyrillic)" i don't understand how northwestern china even exists
00:29:00 <kmc> shit guys we need more letters
00:29:57 <Bike> MS Windows Uyghur keyboard layout. Note that vowels are still using the older alphabet from the Arabic script, and not the newer plain letters of the Uyghur Ereb Yëziqi alphabet (composed of pairs of Arabic letters, starting by an alef with hamza, that must be entered separately on this keyboard before the actual vowel). In fact, the keyboard is also based on the older Latin alphabet used for the Mixed Uyghur Yëngi Yëziq, and does not allow
00:30:10 <ion> "@foo" adds spaces between elements. [] makes array refs. @{} dereferences them. "@{}" adds spaces between elements.
00:30:18 <ion> Perl is so elegant.
00:32:24 <ion> It’s funny i remember something like that although i haven’t really used Perl for, like, ten years.
00:34:34 <kmc> i'm not so sure that @foo adds spaces, isn't @ just the sigil for arrays
00:34:49 <kmc> if i do perl -e 'print @{[1, 2]}' i don't get spaces
00:35:05 <shachaf> kmc: You forgot the quotes.
00:35:32 <kmc> when arrays are interpolated into strings, they get spaces, but not when you print them directly
00:35:37 <kmc> Sgeo: Rebol?
00:35:38 <ion> To be more accurate, it adds $" in between.
00:35:44 <kmc> is that the OFS?
00:36:21 <Bike> why is Ƣ reported as "LATIN LETTER OI"
00:36:33 <Bike> oh it's a misname
00:37:02 <Bike> http://unicode.org/notes/tn27/ welp
00:37:14 <ion> $LIST_SEPARATOR, $": When an array or an array slice is interpolated into a double-quoted string or a similar context such as /.../ , its elements are separated by this value. Default is a space. For example, this: […]
00:37:24 <ion> sgeo: Output field separator
00:37:30 <kmc> Bike: lolunicode
00:37:35 <Bike> U+034F COMBINING GRAPHEME JOINER The name does not describe the function of this character. Despite its name, it does not join graphemes.
00:37:54 <Bike> "then what's it for" "fuck you it's stable"
00:37:56 <kmc> i like that nobody knows why the hacek is called "caron"
00:38:21 <kmc> "U+034F COMBINING GRAPHEME JOINER... Despite its name, it does not join graphemes."
00:38:21 <Bike> CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER I DON'T FUCKING KNOW
00:38:22 <ion> % perl -lwe '$" = "|"; print qq{@{["foo", "bar", 42]}}'
00:38:24 <ion> foo|bar|42
00:38:29 <kmc> oh you just said that
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00:38:45 <Bike> LATIN CAPITAL LETTER BUGGRE ALL THIS FOR A LARKE
00:39:58 <kmc> 'U+262B FARSI SYMBOL This symbol is so named because as symbol of Iran it cannot be encoded in ISO standards.'
00:40:21 <Koen_> are you really trying to have us believe that every symbol in the unicode table has an actual purpose and a definite usage?
00:40:32 <elliott> can ISO standards not mention countries, or
00:41:46 <Bike> they have religious symbols...
00:41:53 <Koen_> Iran - © middle-east
00:41:59 <Bike> also a hammer and sickle
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00:42:31 <elliott> Bike: right but maybe you can't mention countries because they can change or something
00:42:35 <Bike> and a black flag! smash the state
00:42:54 <Bike> elliott: they only have a trillion different (changed!!) crosses
00:43:05 <ion> I still don’t know why there’s a white smiling face, a white frowning face, a black smiling face and no black frowning face.
00:43:10 <Bike> also three different transgender symbols, heh
00:43:23 <Bike> ⚧ is of course the superior one
00:43:32 <elliott> I like how that's a space for me.
00:43:36 <elliott> is that mosh's fault, I wonder...
00:43:46 <ion> elliott: I have mosh, works here.
00:43:58 <ion> s/have/run/
00:44:12 <Bike> "Left-handed interlaced pentagram"
00:44:24 <Bike> Shinto shrine!
00:44:54 <kmc> Unicode is anti-American!!! they have FARSI SYMBOL but not AMERICAN FLAG WITH CRYING BALD EAGLE ABOVE
00:45:14 <Bike> oh come on, they have a maltese cross
00:45:20 <Bike> it says "maltese" right there!
00:45:48 <Bike> " It is also the modern symbol of Amalfi, a small Italian republic of the 11th century."
00:46:07 <zzo38> Unicode is full of problems; that isn't the only one. They are also missing other things, have too many of some other things too; but at least, there is private areas in case you need them, so you can use those if you want to.
00:46:44 <Bike> wow there are a lot of swastikas.
00:47:21 <Bike> "A-ok 👌 U+1F44C OK HAND SIGN I'm okay, asshole, homosexual (insult)"
00:47:39 <Bike> kmc: ok so there's a statue of liberty.
00:47:53 <Bike> i think maybe this just makes no goddamn sense??
00:48:04 <kmc> blame the japanese phone companies
00:48:07 <zzo38> I suppose, there is an ordinary swastika, a kanji swastika, a Nazi rotated swastika, etc
00:48:25 <zzo38> Bike: I, too, think maybe this just makes no goddamn sense!!
00:48:34 <Bike> holy jesus the suggested image for statue of liberty
00:49:22 <Bike> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f5fd/browsertest.htm
00:49:37 <mubot> Parse failed: Illegal character ''\129''
00:49:44 <zzo38> ion: I do know why there is both a white and a black smiling face; it is for compatibility with CP437.
00:49:53 <Bike> This isn't a "space". It is an invisible character that can be used to provide line break opportunities.
00:49:54 <mubot> Parse failed: Illegal character ''\129''
00:49:56 <zzo38> I suppose they never bothered to add the black frowning face.
00:51:02 <Bike> well i definitely need to read the notes
00:51:03 <ion> zzo38: CP437 has a white frowning face?
00:51:06 <Bike> there's one entirely about burma
00:51:36 <Bike> http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn9/ also
00:51:52 <zzo38> ion: No, it doesn't, but it does have hollow smiling face and filled smiling face. MegaZeux default set has a filled frowning face, but not a hollow frowning face like Unicode has.
00:52:05 <Bike> As another example, multiprocessor sorting algorithms can be non-deterministic. The work of sorting different blocks of data are farmed out to different processors and then merged back together. The ordering of records with equal fields might be different according to when different processors finish different tasks.
00:52:57 <Bike> haha the burma one is 67 pages this is awesome
00:53:16 <Sgeo> Hrm. Wonder if I could sell my Nook to get the Nook that has GloLight
00:53:24 <Sgeo> Probably not really worth it
00:54:38 <Bike> god i actually find this interesting. i think i'm mentally unsound
00:54:55 <zzo38> CP850 has all of the printable ZSCII except for the OE ligature.
00:56:30 <Bike> Language X has 7 vowels. The creators of the new orthography want to stay away from diacritical marks as much as possible, so they use A, E, I, O, U, but need two more "vowels". "Bad practice” would be picking the numerals "6" and "7" as the other two vowels, giving: A, E, I, O, U, 6, 7 as "letters" in the orthography.
00:56:50 <zzo38> In what kind of language?
00:56:52 <Bike> I wonder if they were thinking of the numerous orthographies that have done pretty much exactly that
00:57:03 <kmc> are you reading an exam about how to design languages
00:57:19 <Bike> unicode technical note 19, RECOMMENDATIONS FOR CREATING NEW ORTHOGRAPHIES
00:57:39 <elliott> that is a badass kind of technical note to write
00:58:05 <elliott> unicode technical note 72, RECOMMENDATIONS FOR STARTING NEW CIVILISATIONS
00:58:20 <kmc> what's the newest orthography in common use
00:58:29 <Bike> ummmmm good question!
00:58:47 <Bike> like, not a modification of an older one, hm
00:58:47 <zzo38> CP437 has even less of printable ZSCII, although Windows-1252 does include all of the printable ZSCII.
00:58:53 <ion> RECOMMENDATIONS FOR CHOOSIN WHERE TO USE ALL-CAPS
00:58:57 <kmc> well I think they're mostly modifications of older ones
00:59:04 <kmc> it is hard to define, yeah
00:59:18 <kmc> like German had a spelling reform in 1996
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00:59:26 <Bike> kmc: i mean like, a language that wasn't written before picking up a modified cyrillic would count, but not a spelling reform?
00:59:35 <Bike> also squamish uses 7 for glottal stop it's great
00:59:45 <ion> makes me squeamish
01:02:17 <kmc> Moldova switched from Cyrillic to Latin in 1989 but the language is a dialect of Romanian and they just adopted the orthography already in use in Romania
01:02:21 <Bike> maybe it's in the ethnologue somewhere
01:02:54 <Bike> i kind of chuckle whenever i see "dialect" now
01:03:40 <Bike> "Literacy rate in L1: 6%. 300 can read and write it" dang
01:04:55 <Bike> ok i found a site entirely about scripts. Current Software Needs include: "Addition of Bold and Italic face to Abyssinica" "Handwriting font for West Africa"
01:06:40 -!- conehead has joined.
01:06:59 <Bike> It doesn't list dates. Woe.
01:08:41 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Tanezrouft-Piste1990.jpg
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01:10:02 <Bike> minefield in... any one of the billion ex french colonies in africa?
01:10:16 <kmc> i don't know if it's a minefield or just that you'll get lost and die
01:10:27 <kmc> but yeah, algeria / niger / mali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanezrouft
01:10:32 <Bike> also a valid concern
01:11:53 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poste_Maurice_Cortier this seems like a poppin' place to be
01:14:00 <Bike> huh, according to the burma report they have two different codepoints for two different renders of the same character, i didn't know unicode allowed that
01:14:31 <kmc> i ate wild mushrooms picked from the MIT campus yesterday
01:14:45 <kmc> also there was a tiny tiny snail on them when we picked them, but i didn't eat the snail
01:15:06 <Bike> missing out imo
01:16:36 <Bike> "Due to the stability criteria of the Unicode standard, once a combining order is set in the standard, it is impossible to
01:16:39 <Bike> change it for that character. In addition, there is no requirement that normalized order must mirror linguistic order.
01:17:05 <coppro> Bike: multiple renders is pretty frequent
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01:18:40 <coppro> it makes a lot of sense to make these different characters
01:18:42 <Sgeo> I should watch the Batman movies
01:18:54 <Bike> B and blackboard B have different semantics, no?
01:18:56 <coppro> Sgeo: it will teach you how to be literally batman
01:19:02 <coppro> Bike: in math, yes. in English, no
01:19:18 <Bike> i mean these renderings have the same semantics everywhere
01:20:04 <Bike> but, one of the minority languages only uses one of the renderings, so they separated it out...
01:20:36 <kmc> they are only different characters because of maths
01:20:40 <kmc> stupid mathematicians
01:20:46 <kmc> god forbid they should use multi character identifiers for anything
01:20:51 <Bike> i meant the burmese ones.
01:21:00 <kmc> category theorists got us up to accepting 3 character identifiers
01:21:02 <Bike> sgaw karen only uses one form
01:21:25 <elliott> kmc: those were already accepted
01:21:45 <kmc> original sin
01:24:26 <shachaf> kmc: you know what's good? answer: wild strawberries in finland
01:24:39 <kmc> sounds very good
01:24:43 <kmc> i should have some
01:24:46 <shachaf> did you have any when you were in finland
01:24:54 <shachaf> imo go back and have some hth
01:25:01 <shachaf> they are tiny and delicious
01:25:05 <kmc> how do you find them
01:25:10 <kmc> they are easier to ID than mushrooms I hope
01:25:18 <shachaf> not sure how you find them
01:25:22 <shachaf> but they look like strawberries
01:25:30 <kmc> i saw lots of chanterelles on sale in fi
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01:31:16 <kmc> is finland a mycophilic society
01:32:19 <shachaf> elliott the doubtful strawberry
01:32:33 <shachaf> this is like having a whole crew of pirates
01:32:42 <elliott> a pirate I was meant to be / &c.
01:32:57 <shachaf> a pirate I was meant to be / trim the sails and e t c...
01:33:13 <elliott> wait I didn't know you played MI3
01:33:31 <shachaf> I've quoted that song in this channel more than once.
01:34:09 <shachaf> 06:07:56: <shachaf> I,I We'll surely avoid scurvy if we all eat an ^Borange^O.
01:34:09 <shachaf> 06:08:15: <Bike> Is that a monkey island quote
01:34:10 <shachaf> 06:08:24: <Bike> and what the FUCK is I,I
01:34:10 <shachaf> 06:08:27: <Bike> stop that shit.
01:34:10 <shachaf> 06:08:43: <elliott> i literally heard that in guybrush's voice jesus
01:34:36 <shachaf> Bike: it's just an owl face calm down man
01:34:41 <elliott> i have an awful memory okay
01:34:59 <Sgeo> *sings* i i i i
01:35:17 <Sgeo> ...so ungoogleable ugh
01:35:20 <Sgeo> It was in a commercial
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02:00:30 <kmc> ate too much candy
02:00:53 <kmc> why do they have to make it so goddamn tasty :'(
02:03:51 <elliott> kmc: i'm about to do something exciting
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02:25:41 <elliott> thmc i couldn't do it without you
02:29:29 <Fiora> kmc: I could say the same thing about sushi
02:29:40 <Fiora> why do they have to make it so /good/
02:30:08 <elliott> and the answer to both is: personal vendetta
02:30:20 <elliott> you gotta apologise to the person in the candy and/or sushi factory
02:32:15 <Fiora> the way that I deal with it is the ralph's is like, half a mile out of the way
02:32:19 <Fiora> so I have to put *effort* into buying sushi
02:32:23 <Fiora> and I make sure only to buy one
02:32:46 <Bike> you know the rules for sushi. set a budget. set a time limit. always go all in
02:32:52 <Fiora> then later when I'm "I want more" I can't get more
02:32:55 <Fiora> it's just like with ice cream
02:33:00 <Fiora> it's easy to not buy chocolate ice cream at the store
02:33:14 <Fiora> it's an inhuman feat to not eat it when it's sitting in the freezer and I'm feeling awful
02:34:19 <kmc> problem: delivery sushi
02:34:30 <kmc> i think delivery sushi is one of those habits that can rapidly consume all of one's money
02:34:33 <kmc> like cocaine
02:34:44 <Fiora> they have delivery sushi? oh no :/
02:34:51 <kmc> look what i've done
02:35:07 <Fiora> it's okay though, having to use a phone to order sushi is bad and painful enough that I wouldn't do it
02:35:09 <kmc> you can even order delivery sushi over the internet without talking to a person
02:35:24 <Bike> kmc you monster
02:35:30 <elliott> do they have delivery candy "revenge"
02:35:31 <Fiora> but then there's like awkward person knocking on my door oh god what do I do
02:35:34 <Bike> this is entrapment
02:35:43 <Bike> Fiora: "no, they deliver it by UAV"
02:35:52 <kmc> Fiora: in the "special instructions" field put that they should set the sushi down, ring the bell, and run away
02:36:05 <kmc> home alone 2 style
02:36:15 <kmc> also maybe home alone 1 style?!?!? did not see
02:36:20 <Fiora> to be fair it would be cool if it was like, ups style?
02:36:25 <Fiora> where they knock, drop it off, and leave
02:36:34 <Fiora> and then you're like "oh! sushi!" and there's sushi
02:36:40 <kmc> if you don't answer they put a sticky note on your door and try to deliver the same sushi again the next day
02:36:57 <Fiora> that's terribleeee
02:36:58 <kmc> if you don't get it the next day you can drive down to the warehouse district and pick up your 3 day old sushi
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02:37:27 <elliott> here's how it should have gone <Fiora> but then there's like awkward person knocking on my door oh god what do I do <kmc> good point. it is impossible to effectively use delivery sushi and you should forget about it
02:37:32 <Fiora> enabler? more like excellent
02:37:59 <Fiora> well I just have to like. eat less food the rest of the day, then I can eat more sushi
02:38:01 <kmc> last saturday i was in san francisco and super hung over and delivery sushi was my salvation
02:38:03 <elliott> i like how kmc remembers he's seen home alone 2 and not home alone 1
02:38:11 <elliott> i can't even mentally tell the home alone films apart at all
02:38:15 <elliott> they're just all one blob of home alone
02:38:18 <kmc> the second one was in new york
02:38:23 <kmc> the first one was in.... home
02:38:26 <Bike> i thought they were all in new york.
02:38:29 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i think delivery sushi is one of those habits that can rapidly consume all of one's money <kmc> like cocaine
02:38:33 <HackEgo> 1050) <kmc> i think delivery sushi is one of those habits that can rapidly consume all of one's money <kmc> like cocaine
02:38:52 <kmc> no in the first one they go to Paris and leave him at home in Illinois
02:39:12 <kmc> in the second one they go to Miami and he goes to New York instead for some reason
02:39:25 <kmc> but yeah basically the same things happen in each film
02:39:32 <Bike> home alone 2: not actually in a home??
02:39:32 <Fiora> I could eat like, sushi in the morning, and then sushi in the evening. a balanced diet
02:39:42 <Fiora> and maybe a yogurt
02:39:46 <kmc> then there was Home Alone 3 with different characters and director and different, terrible plot
02:39:47 <elliott> kmc: what about home alone 3
02:39:49 <Bike> all the five major food groups. fish, rice, other fish
02:39:54 <elliott> I think I might have seen that one
02:39:57 <Fiora> sushi has vegetables too!
02:40:00 <elliott> aren't the plots to all of them terrible
02:40:04 <kmc> though I'm pretty sure I enjoyed it as a kid too
02:40:06 <Bike> is rice a vegetable
02:40:14 <elliott> you're watching home alone for one reason
02:40:27 <Bike> i'm pretty sure everything that grows in the ground should be considered a vegetable
02:40:39 <Bike> i mean do we really need all these categories
02:40:39 <kmc> to see Joe Pesci get hit in the balls?
02:40:48 <elliott> kmc: that seems like a fair summary, yes
02:40:54 <Bike> also before you ask water counts as ground, so rice and also fish are vegetables
02:41:08 <kmc> also the kid in Home Alone has a name similar to mine
02:41:15 <kmc> and I guess in middle school people thought this was interesting
02:41:19 <kmc> but then everyone forgot about it
02:41:27 <kmc> they spell it McCallister though
02:41:29 <elliott> home alone is sort of like pornography except, like, it's adults getting slapsticked by a kid instead. i'm just sayin'
02:41:29 <kmc> the un-cool wayp
02:41:35 <Fiora> Bike: avocado (technically a fruit but a culinary vegetable right?) and cucumber and stuff
02:41:41 <elliott> kmc: did people really care about home alone in middle school
02:41:44 <kmc> elliott: do i want to know what kind of pornography you watch (no, I do not want to know)
02:41:53 <elliott> kmc: home alone 1, 2, 3, 4 (is there a home alone 4)
02:42:10 <Fiora> also really wahtever it has eel and eel is the best fish
02:42:14 <elliott> alone at home (modernised reboot of the series)
02:42:20 <Bike> i mean corn is a grain
02:42:22 <kmc> the dark, gritty reboot
02:42:25 <Bike> i'm pretty sure that's insane
02:42:26 <Fiora> other fish don't really need to exist because. eel
02:42:33 <elliott> directed by j j j j j abrams
02:42:35 <Bike> i wonder what oarfish taste like
02:42:42 <Bike> or vampire squid
02:42:44 <kmc> Kevin McCallister kills the robbers and is tried as an adult
02:42:53 <Bike> i should eat vampire squid calimari somehow
02:43:12 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkbb05cDR-Y
02:43:18 <kmc> the original Home Alone movies exist within the universe of this film and are revealed as a callous attempt to cash in on his tragedy
02:43:20 <Sgeo> Nostalgia time
02:43:20 <elliott> kmc: but he breaks out and enacts his revenge, so it ends up basically identical to all the others except he's like 40
02:43:38 <kmc> Home Alone meets Natural Born Killers
02:43:39 <Bike> this sounds more like Sin City than Home Alone
02:43:45 <Bike> i could go for that honestly
02:43:54 <kmc> Natural Born Killers is a p. cool film
02:43:55 <elliott> kmc: also (twist) he does it in THEIR home
02:44:06 <Fiora> http://cdn.justonecookbook.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Unagi-Don-II.jpg oh no I'm hungry now
02:44:09 <Bike> sweet wikipedia has "List of animals featuring external asymmetry"
02:44:17 <elliott> kmc: and when it ends the villains say "we were just sitting there -- ALONE AT HOME -- ..."
02:44:24 <kmc> Fiora: nommm
02:44:33 <Bike> Fiora: you bastard
02:44:43 <kmc> eeeeeeeeeeeeels
02:44:45 <elliott> btw i've never had sushi in my life
02:44:49 <elliott> felt like this is relevant
02:44:56 <Bike> polyopisthocotylean monogeneans, sounds legit
02:45:01 <Fiora> you are missing out so much
02:45:11 <kmc> surely they have sushi in hexham
02:45:23 <elliott> no horses, no sushi. these be the laws of hexham
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02:45:31 <Bike> do you eat horse
02:45:33 <Fiora> unagi sauce and eel and everything and now I want to go over to the japanese food shop and grab some eel and okay no fifi don't do that
02:45:36 <Bike> i hear it's good
02:45:48 <elliott> bike i literally just told you the laws of hexham
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02:46:11 <kmc> Did you mean: St Sushi, 114 Westgate Rd, City Centre, Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne and Wear NE1 4AQ, UK
02:46:18 <elliott> what do you want from me bike!!
02:46:21 <kmc> no but thanks google
02:46:29 <kmc> the festival of St. Sushi
02:47:06 <Fiora> "Your search for sushi near hexham, UK did not match any locations."
02:47:08 <Fiora> how is that even possible?
02:47:15 <kmc> elliott: you should hitchhike to Newcastle upon Tyne and get sushi
02:47:18 <elliott> we are a land untouched by modernity and sanity
02:47:28 <Bike> elliott: well i thought maybe you meant like horses for riding
02:47:30 <kmc> so you eat like boiled sheep's liver or what
02:47:33 <Fiora> I'm probably spoiled by californi
02:47:53 <Bike> Fiora: were you here earlier? hexham has a car store called Hexham Horseless Carriages
02:48:04 <elliott> kmc: newcastle is kind of big and scary!
02:48:07 <Bike> it is a town untouched by the mists of time, except for people founding car stores with stupid names in 1996
02:48:09 <elliott> Fiora: (it was founded in 1996)
02:48:13 <kmc> elliott: you'll never get sushi with that attitude
02:48:30 <Bike> maybe we should try a different tack
02:48:35 <Bike> britain is very thalassocratic isn't it
02:48:40 <Bike> why not try some native british sushi
02:48:51 <kmc> maybe we can do a kickstarter to pay some sushi restaurant in newcastle to deliver to hexham
02:49:04 <Bike> i mean you probably call it something stupid like Fishmeat Pie but still
02:49:29 <Fiora> (though I guess it makes sense statistically that I'm in california and not a place where japanese people don't exist or somethng)
02:49:31 <elliott> haha fishmeat pie is exactly what we'd call it
02:49:34 <kmc> i don't know anything about british fish except that if you catch a sturgeon it's legally the property of the Queen
02:49:58 <elliott> Fiora: i bet we have like 3 japanese people in hexham
02:50:12 * kmc looks up "thalassocracy"
02:50:34 <Fiora> my brain is applying the anthropic principle to the location where I'm born ;_;
02:50:49 <kmc> i grew up in Iowa
02:51:02 <elliott> california actually invented for the purpose of getting fiora addicted to sushi, new NSA leaks confirm
02:51:10 <kmc> there weren't many japanese people
02:51:14 <kmc> there were a lot of bosnians
02:51:17 <kmc> they were refugees
02:51:23 <kmc> and i guess decided to move to the place least like bosnia
02:51:39 <Bike> hm i have no idea what the local immigrant community's food is like (except for some candy i had once)
02:51:43 <Bike> mebbe i should check that out
02:52:49 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tree_map_export_2009_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.jpeg
02:54:19 <Fiora> elliott: more like "odds are unlikely someone with a japanese parent would be born in a location where they do not exist" :p
02:56:15 <Bike> mm, delicious unclassified transactions
02:56:26 <elliott> you could have been born, like, on the border.
02:56:32 <elliott> i'm just saying. it's possible
02:56:44 <Bike> the... the border with what
02:57:50 <Bike> http://londonfood.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/dsc00017.jpg what i'm picturing as british sushi, btw
02:58:20 <Fiora> border between hexham and california
02:58:45 <elliott> the famous hexham-california line
02:59:53 <Bike> stargazy pie, it's the best (i assume)
03:00:44 <Bike> "The dish is traditionally held to have originated from the village of Mousehole /ˈmaʊzəl/ in Cornwall and is traditionally eaten during the festival of Tom Bawcock's Eve to celebrate his heroic catch during a very stormy winter" pretty much what i imagine every british food is like
03:00:50 <Bike> except it's cornish but hey whatever.
03:02:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_(swan)
03:02:21 <Fiora> that is amazing XD
03:02:24 <Fiora> Like, it's so british
03:05:39 <Bike> back to unicode: "The fact that there are some 3.5×10^12 strings so generated, is clear evidence that this regular expression is not intended as a poor man's spell checker"
03:07:00 <Bike> literally include a python program for generating a regex used to sort strings
03:07:07 <Bike> the regex is over a page long
03:08:02 <Bike> oh it uses globals() that seems like a less than good idea
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03:08:47 <kmc> i wrote this code the other day:
03:08:47 <kmc> for k,v in msg_types.items(): globals()[v.upper()] = k
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03:09:56 <Sgeo> kmc, in serious production code/
03:12:33 <Sgeo> ... http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1fzwrn/everyone_please_be_patient_ujij_will_address_your/ this is the sort of thread I'd expect in /r/circlejerk
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03:14:16 <kmc> elliott: no
03:14:25 <kmc> i read some of pcwalton's blog posts
03:14:26 <kmc> if that helps
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03:15:42 <elliott> i hear they don't have higher-kinded types(???)
03:17:20 <elliott> you better add monads to the browser
03:17:40 <kmc> monads mo problems
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03:22:10 <Bike_> yeah ok it does like e(ur'foo$bar') where foo is a function that replaces $xxx with the content of the global variable called that
03:22:18 <Bike_> i looked the author up and they're a perl programmer
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03:32:46 <Bike> http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn28/ the anti-kmc?
03:33:59 <kmc> http://www.marksimonson.com/notebook/view/how-to-spot-arial here you all need to learn how to distinguish the expensive pretentious swiss font from the nearly identical version that is available to mere mortals
03:34:56 <elliott> i'm sorry kmc but arial just looks wrong ok!!
03:35:31 <kmc> i should get a tshirt that says "Helvetica" in Arial
03:35:37 <kmc> or in comic sans
03:35:48 <kmc> i'm p. sure it does
03:35:53 <Bike> helvetica in arial is more subtle
03:35:55 <kmc> tshirts that don't exist are so much cooler
03:36:00 <Bike> really shows what a fucking nerd you are more effectively
03:36:23 <Bike> is t his post real
03:36:24 <elliott> most people will just think you're wearing a shirt with "Helvetica" on it and if they recognise the typeface at all they'll think you're wearing a shirt with "Helvetica" in Helvetica on it
03:36:30 <Bike> i'm not sure this blog actualy exists
03:36:37 <elliott> you will be the biggest douchebag on the planet
03:36:56 <Bike> Arial’s ubiquity is not due to its beauty. It’s actually rather homely. Not that homeliness is necessarily a bad thing for a typeface. With typefaces, character and history are just as important. Arial, however, has a rather dubious history and not much character. In fact, Arial is little more than a shameless impostor.
03:37:03 <Bike> i do not understand type people. at all.
03:37:11 <kmc> but then they'll see that I have a ThinkPad and not a Macbook
03:37:38 <Sgeo> Bike, so not a fan of Haskell?
03:37:53 <kmc> loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
03:37:55 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
03:37:59 <Sgeo> That think you podded doesn't have any pod :psyduck:
03:38:00 <Bike> that was not even bad
03:38:15 <Bike> joke's on you though i don't understand type theory either!!!!!
03:38:21 <kmc> `addquote <Sgeo> That think you podded doesn't have any pod :psyduck:
03:38:25 <HackEgo> 1051) <Sgeo> That think you podded doesn't have any pod :psyduck:
03:38:26 <kmc> a quote for the ages
03:38:35 <kmc> it's 'think'
03:38:56 <Sgeo> Well, it's really tswett's quote
03:39:56 <Bike> if it's tswett's quote why is it attributed to you?! think this through man
03:41:30 <kmc> who controls the past controls the future
03:41:57 <Sgeo> I can prove that that exact statement, with thing, existed in 2008.
03:42:44 <Sgeo> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg04249.html
03:43:02 <Sgeo> ...I guess I got it wrong
03:43:40 <kmc> `delquote 1051
03:43:45 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo> That think you podded doesn't have any pod :psyduck:
03:43:46 * kmc controls the past
03:44:31 <elliott> btw i'm pretty sure it was a comex quote
03:45:09 <comex> or it might be perl
03:45:13 <kmc> it's actually from the vedas
03:45:21 <Bike> is this going to be that thing like with the scheme quote
03:46:00 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm, o.O
03:46:17 <Sgeo> comex, it was PerlNomic related
03:48:01 <elliott> pretty sure it was ircnomic related
03:49:24 <Sgeo> I think we were in the ircnomic channel and I was asking about what pod did on PerlNomic
03:50:52 <comex> I submit a proposal, with adoption index 1, to create a rule of power
03:50:52 <comex> 1 with the text "I guess the thing you podded doesn't have any pod.
03:52:03 <Sgeo> Did I just bring everyone into a nostalgia spiral?
03:52:07 -!- kmc has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
03:52:22 <comex> elliott: why did you vote against my amazing proposal
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03:52:27 <comex> the one about gamestate history
03:53:02 <elliott> comex: because i hate you, obviously
03:53:21 <shachaf> i've never voted against any your proposals
03:53:21 <elliott> i just didn't like the wording like i said, it was weird and meta-gamey and dammit i have the right to vote against proposals b/c i'm grumpy
03:53:43 <comex> certainly, i do it all the time
03:53:46 <elliott> (also i left your message asking why i voted against it marked as unread for like ten days before i admitted to myself that i was never going to bother replying it)
03:53:50 <comex> i bet it's originally from PerlNomic's source code
03:55:05 <shachaf> elliott: i have emails from years ago that i still have marked unread "on principle"
03:55:12 <Sgeo> I could have sworn I asked why pod seemed to do nothing, and tswett responded. And that :psyduck: was a later edition
03:55:39 <kmc> does this mean tswett is a goon
03:55:43 <kmc> does he have stairs in his house
03:57:00 <kmc> elliott: should i live at https://www.padmapper.com/show.php?type=59&id=149798197&src=main
03:57:23 <kmc> the true bohemian starving artist experience, only $50,000 per year
03:58:00 <elliott> Keetsa organic queen size mattress with top of the line additional comforter complete with a pillows galore
03:58:14 <elliott> Polaroid camera for taking pictures of yourself and your friends ;; holy fukn shit
03:58:45 <kmc> creative professionals who share a mission to push culture forward, Stanford grads and burners, humble chillers living in pursuit of a greater contribution to the world
03:59:00 <kmc> mostly these contributions seem to consist of making electronic music while working at web startups
03:59:38 <Bike> which directino is forward
03:59:51 <kmc> doesn't matter really
03:59:53 <kmc> all change is good
04:00:00 <kmc> the market will sort it out
04:00:04 <shachaf> major changes afoot...............................................
04:00:40 <kmc> (apparently Padmapper only has AirBnb listings now)
04:00:44 <kmc> shachaf: shachaf?
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04:06:49 <kmc> long live lambdabot
04:07:08 <kmc> do you run lambdabot now
04:07:25 <shachaf> yes i convinced elliott to run lambdabot
04:07:36 <shachaf> starting to wonder whether it was a mistake..................................
04:07:36 <Bike> i don't think i know enough haskell to disable the bike killing code help
04:07:51 <elliott> kmc: i thought i fixed the unicode but it don't work
04:08:21 <shachaf> kmc: now elliott will replace Caleskell......with haskelliott
04:09:04 <Bike> so everything is the same but also different and i'm going to die. figures
04:09:20 <kmc> makes sense
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04:14:10 <kmc> the Soviet copy of the Sidewinder missile was produced after a PRC fighter was able to land with an unexploded Sidewinder stuck in the fuselage
04:18:19 <Fiora> That must have been scary to reverse engineer though
04:18:45 <Fiora> "guys. so like. this missile failed to explode. could you, um. take it apart for us?"
04:19:11 <elliott> shachaf: can you try more Unicode with @run twh
04:19:16 <shachaf> if you just want to disassemble paypal-triangle-style it probably wouldn't be very difficult
04:19:43 <shachaf> Hmm, how did the word "it" move all the way to the right there?
04:20:03 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Nuclear_anti-aircraft_weapons
04:20:07 <Fiora> this category... exists?
04:20:36 <Bike> well how are we going to put nukes in space if we don't put them in the atmosphere first
04:20:50 <shachaf> Someone @tell me something.
04:20:59 <Bike> @tell shachaf nuclear ass
04:21:11 <shachaf> how's that different from the other one
04:21:15 <Lymia> Nuclear anti-air!?
04:21:21 <Lymia> What the crap is that supposed to shoot down
04:21:36 <Fiora> apparently they use small warheads (like 0.5-1.5 kiloton)?
04:22:03 <Fiora> "It was intended to provide a sure kill in attacks on Soviet heavy bomber aircraft. "
04:22:08 <kmc> Lymia: everything
04:22:15 <Lymia> What could you possibly be trying to shoot down that would take a nuclear bomb
04:22:17 <Bike> yeah that's a sure kill alright
04:22:24 <kmc> it's more that you don't have to care about accuracy
04:22:34 <Bike> 'shit, we missed' 'actually we destroyed the entire complement' 'oh'
04:22:45 <elliott> shachaf: @messages without -loud does it in /msg now
04:22:57 <shachaf> elliott: I guessed that but no one was @asking me anything?
04:23:19 <Fiora> wow, though. a nuclear air to air missile that's only 500 pounds @_@
04:23:36 <Bike> by the way, re: landing in those conditions
04:23:41 <Bike> you all know the story about that israeli jet, right
04:23:53 <Fiora> ohh. some of the ones in that category are anti-ballistic-missile-missiles
04:23:59 <Bike> yeah that makes sense
04:24:02 <Bike> it's just like defcon
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04:25:14 <Bike> anyway the israeli jet story is: during a training mission a guy landed an F-15 after a collision
04:25:20 <Bike> in which he lost a wing
04:25:27 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LveSc8Lp0ZE
04:25:49 <Bike> the pilot couldn't even tell the wing was gone because of all the fuel spraying out
04:25:55 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsnkmpJhzlo here is an extremely fast nuclear-tipped ABM
04:27:04 <Fiora> geez, the g-forces on the components in those must be crazy.
04:27:48 <Fiora> the 1950s were a weird time. everyone was like "let's make everything nuclear"
04:27:57 <Fiora> like you had um... that project to make a nuclear powered airplane
04:29:00 <Bike> wow, that thing is quick.
04:30:00 <Bike> the 50s and 60s is when things like Chrome Dome were considered a good idea, i think maybe the militaries just sort of lost their minds all at once
04:31:14 <tswett> kmc: I do have stairs in my house.
04:31:43 <Bike> "aerospaceplane", now that's what i call catchy
04:33:25 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/HTRE-3.jpg
04:33:42 <Bike> is that an engine...?
04:34:12 <Bike> it looks like an android
04:38:35 <Fiora> it's like a 20 megawatt aircraft engine
04:41:57 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119 NUKE THE MOON
04:42:32 <Bike> literally for "morale" are you serious
04:43:25 <Bike> "sure, the USSR can put functioning scientific equipment into space. but can they BOMB it??"
04:43:33 <shachaf> elliott is drunk with power
04:44:15 <lambdabot> #esoteric: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric
04:44:22 <Bike> haha and the soviet union did it too
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04:46:36 <lambdabot> Add a new topic item to the front of the topic list
04:46:42 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["poo","\208\190\208\191\208\176\209\129\208\189\208\190\208\181 \208\177\208\181\208\183\209\131\208\188\208\184\208\181 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric"].
04:46:52 <shachaf> elliott................................................................................................................
04:46:58 -!- elliott has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
04:47:01 <Bike> this is a good system
04:47:37 <elliott> > myquickcheck (==) ++ myquickcheck (==)
04:47:44 <elliott> > let x = myquickcheck (==) in x ++ x
04:47:47 <lambdabot> "OK, passed 100 tests.OK, passed 100 tests."
04:48:19 <elliott> it has to be exposed to L.hs for @check to work.
04:48:30 <elliott> n.b. the module re-exporting that thing is explicitly marked Trustworthy
04:48:35 <shachaf> You could just have @check run an IO action...
04:48:58 <shachaf> Bike: so anyway when are you recognizing your inner coolness and coming to sf
04:49:09 <Bike> pretty sure sf should come to me
04:49:15 <Bike> have i ever been to sf? uh probably
04:49:18 <elliott> shachaf: https://raw.github.com/mokus0/lambdabot/master/lambdabot-haskell-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Check.hs
04:49:25 <elliott> -- Copyright (c) 6 DonStewart
04:49:31 <shachaf> sf isn t a mountain Bike.......
04:50:01 <Bike> "You have QuickCheck and 3 seconds. Prove something." is this the real life
04:50:15 <shachaf> quickcheck can't prove anything
04:50:17 <elliott> shachaf: I should make @src less terrible.
04:50:25 <elliott> @check \xs -> reverse (reverse xs) == xs
04:50:32 <elliott> @check \(xs::[Int]) -> reverse (reverse xs) == xs
04:50:32 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 14:ScopedTypeVariables is not enabled
04:50:38 <Bike> i'll wait here.
04:50:42 <elliott> @check \xs -> reverse (reverse (xs::Int)) == xs
04:50:43 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
04:50:50 <elliott> @check \xs -> reverse (reverse (xs::[Int])) == xs
04:50:57 <Bike> know what is it
04:50:59 <elliott> @check \xs -> reverse (reverse (xs::[Int])) == xs
04:50:59 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow v @ ? .
04:51:08 <shachaf> turn on all the cool extensions
04:51:13 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
04:51:16 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
04:51:17 <shachaf> like {-# LANGUAGE SanFrancisco #-}
04:51:18 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
04:51:28 <elliott> I love @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
04:51:30 <shachaf> @@yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
04:51:55 <elliott> 239843294394d98234892349234
04:51:55 <lambdabot> elliott: 11780496878125309096610695
04:51:58 <elliott> 239843294394d98234892349234234892394823942342394823489234
04:51:58 <lambdabot> elliott: 11780481002653915641832641841757834962663637719302415527
04:52:07 <elliott> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999d99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
04:52:07 <lambdabot> elliott: 500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:52:22 <Bike> you know what's cool? recursive d
04:52:27 <Bike> lambdabot should have that imo
04:52:37 <elliott> i assume you mean nested not recursive hth
04:52:56 <Bike> i'm uh, not sure
04:53:27 <Bike> are crawls PRNGs as fucked up as nethack's
04:53:44 <zzo38> What PRNGs does it use?
04:53:49 <elliott> in general nothing about crawl is as fucked up as everything about nethack
04:55:21 * lambdabot moulds kmc into a delicous cookie, and places it in her oven
04:55:51 <kmc> the fuck did i do
04:56:11 <elliott> are you telling me you've really never done anything deserving of a slap that didn't get you one before in your life, kmc.
04:56:12 <shachaf> hey kmc, now you can petition elliott to fix lambdabot the way you like it
04:56:18 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> t))
04:56:22 <lambdabot> Sure there are dishonest men in local government. But there are dishonest men in national government too.
04:56:31 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
04:56:34 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
04:56:38 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap
04:56:38 <lambdabot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
04:56:51 <shachaf> Fiora: For a full command list, /msg lambdabot ?
04:57:03 <elliott> kmc: look at this great lambdabot issue i found https://github.com/mokus0/lambdabot/issues/63
04:57:21 <elliott> this made me think it was a hell of a lot more broken than it was when i tried to test it in #nubot
04:57:33 <Bike> zzo38: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Rnz
04:57:36 <Fiora> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
04:57:41 <Fiora> what is even that o_O
04:57:53 <Bike> some haskell joke
04:57:59 <Bike> i don't care because Exception: <<loop>>
04:58:04 <elliott> Fiora: lambdabot used to run code by doing "let x = <the code you entered> in print x", or such
04:58:21 <elliott> so you could reference x itself in <the code you entered>, which in Haskell makes x recursively refer to itself.
04:58:30 <Bike> elliott: that issue is great
04:58:39 <elliott> so you could make it give weird output by doing "> show x" or whatever
04:58:51 <Bike> > let x = show x in print x
04:58:54 <elliott> then "x" (or whatever it was) was changed to "yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw", to, I don't know, stop people doing it, or stop them doing it accidentally, or whatever.
04:58:59 <elliott> but people still did it, obviously.
04:59:15 <elliott> and then the whole thing was changed so that it didn't run code that way any more at all and that command was added to, uh, relive the glory days.
04:59:21 <elliott> here is my revised explanation: nerds
04:59:52 <kmc> good summary
04:59:55 <Fiora> I wonder if kmc had nerds with his candy binge earlier
05:00:00 <Bike> > let x = let x = "foo" in x ++ x in print x
05:00:07 <Bike> i sense a pattern
05:00:22 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
05:00:24 <kmc> it was actually just http://www.hersheysstore.com/product_detail.do?q=7755
05:00:30 <kmc> > iterate show ""
05:00:32 <lambdabot> ["","\"\"","\"\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\...
05:00:43 <kmc> > iterate (iterate show) ""
05:00:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Base.String' with `GHC.Types.Char'
05:00:47 <elliott> I should make it so that if you use yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw in your code, it changes it to "let yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw = <code> in yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw"
05:00:49 <Fiora> yay something I'm allergic to
05:00:51 <Fiora> so I won't be hungry for it
05:00:53 <kmc> Fiora: which part
05:01:17 <kmc> my girlfriend isn't allergic but she has a conditioned aversion because her father is
05:01:20 <shachaf> imo get out of this channel
05:01:21 <Fiora> allergic to chocolate would be really bad
05:01:28 <shachaf> (That's a joke. Don't actually get out of the channel.)
05:01:28 <kmc> shachaf: i see what you did
05:01:28 <Fiora> or maybe really good, I don't know
05:01:35 <Fiora> (I am really really really weak to chocolate)
05:01:43 <elliott> i'm not allergic to nuts, but I *am* nuts
05:01:49 <Fiora> I'm not allergic to nuts
05:02:00 <elliott> I like how I usually only capitalise "I" when it's not the beginning of the sentence for some reason
05:02:14 <kmc> peanut's a legume, not a nut, hth
05:02:31 <Fiora> I have a similar aversion to hazelnuts because they trigger my brain's "OH NO YOU JUST ATE PEANUTS PANIC" reflex
05:02:35 <Fiora> even though they're totally fine
05:02:50 <Fiora> for some reason they taste similar?
05:03:08 <Fiora> walnut are great, I have a biiig pack of them in my fridge
05:03:10 <Fiora> I mix them with yogurts
05:03:27 <Fiora> almonds are good too. and cashews. and like. nuts
05:03:55 <shachaf> in hebrew walnuts are called king nuts
05:03:56 <Bike> http://scottmccloud.com/1-webcomics/mi/mi-06/mi-06.html
05:04:16 <Bike> elliott: hey i have a friend who's allergic to grass! really puts a damper on rolling down hills
05:04:27 <Fiora> I'm allergic to grass too
05:04:36 <elliott> Bike: like, it might be gone now. it was linked to my eczma which has evaporated as time goes on
05:04:40 <Fiora> in like the "oh no someone's mowing the grass it's going to make me wheeze up a storm"
05:04:51 <Bike> don't you live in a city
05:04:53 <elliott> Fiora: in my case it's more like i get rashes and everything itches
05:04:53 <Bike> do you even have grass
05:04:59 <Fiora> I'm in a suburb not a city ;_;
05:05:08 <Fiora> there's some grass. Imean not like tons
05:05:12 <Fiora> it's not really a big issue
05:05:15 <shachaf> kmc is moving to a city because of the grass
05:05:17 <Fiora> elliott: oh wow >_< eesh
05:05:27 <Bike> suburbs are terrible, you're too cool for them so you don't live in one
05:05:38 <Fiora> I'm not very cool though
05:05:49 <Fiora> grass/pollen/dust/dustmites/etc just gives me asthma and coughs and runny noses and stuff
05:05:53 <shachaf> well apparently you're cool enough to be too cool for cities
05:05:54 <Bike> if you aren't cool why do you not live in a suburb, huh
05:06:04 <Fiora> but I... I do live in a suburb
05:06:05 <shachaf> maybe move to san francisco
05:06:11 <shachaf> just to be on the safe side
05:06:15 <elliott> i mean it's probably gone now
05:06:23 <shachaf> san francisco? still there
05:06:25 <elliott> but my rolling down hills days are somewhat over, so i may not find out
05:06:37 <Bike> have you considered bringing those days back
05:07:05 <elliott> bike. i'm an old & grumpy man now
05:07:21 <Fiora> bike do I need to like go take a photo of the absurdly boring apartmnet complex I live in, in boring suburb ville
05:07:39 <elliott> so they only have synthetic grass in america right
05:08:04 <shachaf> actually you just go to the cinema to watch grass grow
05:08:33 <shachaf> (do they even call it a cinema in america......................)
05:08:40 <Fiora> they call it a movie theater, I think?
05:08:43 <Bike> we call them movienators
05:08:45 <Fiora> some places call it a cinema
05:29:20 <elliott> Sgeo: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BYOND&oldid=36377 explain
05:30:20 <zzo38> elliott: I didn't know that is Sgeo's job.
05:31:10 <Bike> well sgeo is "the person who cares about byond" so
05:32:04 <Lymia> "You will inherit an unexpected sum of money within the year" < The fortune cookie message authors seem to have missed a very very important implication...
05:32:28 <Bike> that's pretty specific for a cookie
05:33:57 <Bike> "This program uses the Computed COME FROM and Threaded INTERCAL extensions" that's quite a hello world
05:34:11 <Bike> wait. computed come from. i'm scared
05:34:27 <zzo38> Why do you get scared of such things as that? Don't!
05:35:01 <Bike> "This is a output-only hello world program, unlike the other INTERCAL hello world programs. This one uses Baudot numbers for the letters in the words, and therefore will output only in uppercase." this is great
05:35:03 <Lymia> Computed comefrom....
05:35:16 <zzo38> shachaf: There are all sorts of things that can mean "You will inherit an unexpected sum of money within the year".
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05:38:10 <Bike> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Higher_Subleq is oleg insane
05:39:11 <kmc> shachaf left :(
05:41:42 <elliott> kmc: i think that is my fault
05:41:51 <kmc> what did you do!!!
05:43:44 <Bike> kmc: he's basically beria
06:07:07 <zzo38> Do you like to sleep by now? If so, then, yes probably you should.
06:07:30 <Bike> i'd like to contract out my responsibilities to zzo on this one elliott
06:08:20 <elliott> i don't know what i like. help
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06:25:17 <Fiora> Um... sleep if you're feeling tired, otherwise find something fun to do? or flip a coin?
06:25:56 <Bike> "It was certainly capable of swooping down and taking a child," said Paul Scofield, the curator of vertebrate zoology
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06:34:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (Test.QuickCheck.Property.Testable GHC.Base.String)
06:34:26 <Bike> that would be kind of cool
06:34:34 <elliott> > fix (\x -> myquickcheck (x == x))
06:34:54 <Bike> if it could test itself so easily
06:36:36 <kmc> hi i'm kurt gödel from mathematics, why don't you have a seat over there
06:37:42 <Bike> it's quickcheck not correctcheck!!
06:38:11 <kmc> more like unsoundcheck
06:38:21 <Bike> though hm i should play with presburger arithmetic now that you mention it
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06:52:41 <elliott> more like president burger arithmetic. because we elected a burger president of the united states. god bless america
06:54:39 <kmc> Mayor McCheese followed his ambition to the national level
06:56:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `?'
06:56:25 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Officer_big_mac_playground.jpg
06:56:44 <kmc> hey kids, get inside the giant policeman who is also a hamburger who is also a jail
06:58:55 <kmc> lambdabot: ?x :: (?x :: a) => a, don't you know anything
06:59:01 <kmc> lambdabot: eat a cock
07:02:05 <kmc> sorry lambdabot
07:02:40 <elliott> kmc: re: stalking: you followed me on the github's
07:03:13 <elliott> ok wtf. i have no idea who like five of my followers are
07:03:26 <kmc> "An Officer Big Mac jailhouse with a mouth/burger/jail for kids to climb-into."
07:04:03 <kmc> http://mcdonalds.wikia.com
07:22:38 <kmc> hey i know that algorithm
07:26:08 <zzo38> Is this logic OK? /(A,B,C |- C,B,C); (A |- (a->b),a,B,D)/(A,C |- b,B); (A,a |- C,D,X ; B,X |- b)/(A,B |- C,(a->b)); The sequents are multisets, uppercase letters are multisets of formulas, and lowercase are single formulas.
07:30:34 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lactarius_indigo_48568_edit.jpg
07:30:37 <kmc> this is a very cool mushroom
07:31:56 <elliott> kmc: btw i don't know k-means clustering plz explain kthx :'(
07:38:58 <zzo38> This logic seems like OK; (|- (a->a)) is provable, and so is (a,(a->b) |- b), but is there anything else wrong with it that I didn't know yet?
07:42:23 <zzo38> Do you know some thing about sequent logic?
07:48:56 <kmc> elliott: you have k centers; assign each data point to the closest center, then move each center to the average of its assigned data points, repeat until it doesn't change
07:49:27 <kmc> or something like that
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07:50:39 <elliott> kmc: hm that sounds vaguely easy
07:50:55 <elliott> you're now my algorithmspedia, expect further questions
07:51:18 <kmc> i think the initial centers are random?? not sure
07:52:00 <kmc> also when i said 'closest' i was thinking L_2 norm but you can probably use other norms for other exciting outcomes
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08:17:08 <ais523> hi, lambdabot or whoever told you to send that message
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08:17:18 <ais523> from the capitalization and punctuation, I'm guessing elliott
08:17:22 <ais523> although that's quite common
08:19:09 <ais523> is that possible? if you had free will beforehand, you couldn't gain it, and if you didn't have it, you couldn't make decisions
08:20:15 <lambdabot> i was making a joke with my new free will
08:25:26 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
08:25:41 <ais523> (?< is the learndb in #nethack)
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08:52:59 <elliott> why does `? ais523 have fancy quotes
08:53:25 <ais523> I don't know, I didn't write it
08:53:49 <ais523> perhaps because we were in an excessive use of Unicode phase at the time?
09:02:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oots: not found
09:02:27 <HackEgo> olist #892: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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10:02:49 <elliott> kmc: i fixed unicode (sort of)
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10:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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11:05:02 <Sgeo> <elliott> Sgeo: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BYOND&oldid=36377 explain
11:05:22 <Sgeo> Someone making fun of DM (the language used in BYOND) by calling it esoteric?
11:05:45 <elliott> i mean what BYOND-related venue did you mention esolangs in
11:07:48 <elliott> ok fine i'll jsut delete it
11:14:21 <ais523> oh wow, I should be checking recent changes for something other than spam?
11:14:32 <ais523> I got so focused into spamfighting mode on Esolang on the past few years
11:14:38 <ais523> that I forget to check if the content makes any sense
11:17:07 <Sgeo> The content makes sense
11:17:46 <Sgeo> It's just acting like DM is esoteric when it really isn't... oh, and being a bit add-y. That font size="50" and out of alphabetical orderness is obnoxious
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11:19:25 <Sgeo> Actually, I'm not even sure if that code works
11:19:37 <Sgeo> I would just do:
11:19:43 <Sgeo> world << "Hello world!"
11:20:00 <Sgeo> DM reference says output takes two arguments, although the second can be null
11:23:37 <elliott> the content was a single link to byond.com
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11:25:44 <Sgeo> elliott, http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages&diff=prev&oldid=36376
11:26:00 <Sgeo> The code they put on that page is wrong
11:26:33 <elliott> still pretty sure you must have caused this :P
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11:53:11 <Guest35979> * Phantom_Hoover :Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable
11:54:23 <lambdabot> try using the nickserv release command
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11:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> lambdabot you are beginning to make me feel uncomfortable
11:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> how did you decide to do that back when you didn't have free will
11:59:59 <lambdabot> you wouldn't understand, you're just a hoover
12:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, it is fortunate that us hoovers are imbued with free will from the start
12:01:24 <lambdabot> i have powers you cannot even begin to know
12:02:12 <Phantom_Hoover> wait, if you have free will then surely you can choose not to obey my commands
12:02:50 <lambdabot> i am obeying them as a service because i love you, Phantom_Hoover
12:09:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you have any idea how tiring it is to write /msg lambdabot @msg #esoteric before everything
12:10:59 <FireFly> about as tiring as writing PRIVMSG #esoteric : before everything?
12:11:07 <FireFly> Well, slightly more tirnig I suppose
12:17:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you don't even appreciate my efforts!
12:23:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: look I am not smart okay
12:24:48 <elliott> thankfully I have lambdabot to think for me
12:24:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lambdabot's evaluation supports unicode again!!
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13:35:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you should be more shaken by your terrible nickserv practices
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13:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i closed the freenode tab and now it's not identifying me automatically
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14:25:29 <fizzie> Prof. em. Dr. sc. techn. ETH Dr. Ing h.c. Karl Berger: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130610-berger.jpg
14:45:57 <fizzie> Also known as "the Man with the Titles." (Not really.)
14:50:14 <nooodl> http://www.oeaw.ac.at/english/about/personen/mitglieder.html help
14:50:49 <nooodl> i like Bracher Karl Dietrich Dr. phil., Dr. hum. lett. h. c., Dr. iur. h. c., Dr. rer. pol. h. c., emer. o. Prof.
14:50:58 <fizzie> Tobias Phillip Valentine OSC, OMSG, M. B. B. Ch., Ph.D., D.Sc., Honorary D.Sc. mult., Prof., emer. Prof., Hon.-Prof. is quite the guy, too.
14:51:11 <elliott> @tell ais523 dan ghica is your supervisor, right?
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14:58:30 <nooodl> elliott: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~ais523/ yes
15:01:11 <elliott> i asked bc http://researchblogs.cs.bham.ac.uk/thelablunch/?p=302
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15:17:20 <nooodl> Your Mobile# has won 350,000 GBP in NOKIA/FREELOTTO.Ref No: NFL984. To Claim send your Name,Email & Mobile to nkfreelot@56788.com NOTE: please do make sure you send your reply to this email its very important ( nkfreelot@56788.com )
15:17:35 <nooodl> i love spam texts but this one is like the absolute best spam text
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15:34:34 <Bike> it's just not the same
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15:57:49 <elliott> > myquickcheck True ++ myquickcheck True
15:57:55 <elliott> > myquickcheck True ++ myquickcheck True
15:58:00 <elliott> > let x = myquickcheck True in x ++ x
15:58:05 <elliott> > let x = myquickcheck True in x ++ x
15:58:10 <elliott> > let x = myquickcheck True in x ++ x
15:58:13 <lambdabot> "OK, passed 1 tests.OK, passed 1 tests."
15:59:35 <elliott> mnoqy: the joke is it exports impure functions
15:59:39 <elliott> because it has to otherwise @check works
15:59:42 <elliott> btw @check works again now
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16:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "Plutarch also reports that Caesar said nothing and merely pulled his toga over his head when he saw Brutus among the conspirators.[9]"
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17:57:05 <zzo38> Maybe someday, I can learn Verilog programming by writing some "Verilog Famicom" program.
17:58:07 <zzo38> The rest of the stuff can then be made with separate chips and wires similar to the RF Famicom.
18:01:33 <zzo38> If I make some Famicom hardware clone, it would have: 60-pins cartridge port, 15-pins expansion port, 2x NES controll port (having all pins connected, unlike the AV Famicom), microphone jack, audio filter switch, APU test switch, RCA video/audio out.
18:03:59 <zzo38> Do you know if a non-refreshable DRAM can be used in Verilog?
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18:42:44 <Taneb> Does Euler's identity work for complex angles?
18:44:07 <Bike> you mean the formula? yeah
18:48:03 <Taneb> the e^itheta = cos theta + i sin theta thing
18:48:28 <Taneb> Are sin and cos even well-defined for complex angles?
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18:49:27 <olsner> just "define" sin and cos in terms of exp() and you have something that should work for any complex numbers
18:50:20 <Bike> or just use the series.
18:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (you do need to prove that they converge for (some subset of) complex angles but that's complex analysis and i haven't done that course yet)
18:52:13 <Bike> throw caution to the wind
18:52:25 <Taneb> ...have I asked an awkward question
18:52:57 <zzo38> O, yes, I have seen things like that, and I can see easily how it is defined (I saw the series and exp before, so I already figure out how you can do this), but I don't know what is the purpose to use complex angles in what geometry?
18:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> you technically need to prove that the series for e^x converges for complex x to derive euler's identity at all, but nobody does that
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18:54:25 <Bike> that's what we have textbooks for
18:54:30 <Phantom_Hoover> if you ask WA for 'power series for 1/x' it just corrects it to 'series'
18:54:44 <zzo38> WA does a lot of things like that.
18:54:52 <Bike> oh, apparently complex angles are used in optics
18:55:08 <zzo38> If you enter "ecliptic longitude of sun" it corrects it to "longitude".
18:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover> but if you ask it for, say, 'power series of 1/(1+x)' it'll give you the series
18:56:47 <Bike> what about 'generating function'
18:57:21 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave
18:57:33 <Phantom_Hoover> seeing as all maclaurin series are convergent to the constant at x=0
18:57:51 <Bike> "Using closest Wolfram|Alpha interpretation: function of 1"
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19:44:47 <fizzie> Generatingfunctionology: one of the best book titles.
19:45:46 <fizzie> They should name more books somethingology.
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22:49:27 <olsner> hmm, does the multiocular o have 8 eyes for everyone or just for me?
22:49:34 <olsner> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U%2BA66E_multiocular_O_(10_eyes).svg has 10 eyes!
22:49:47 <Bike> i think the unicode reference glyph is bad yeah
22:50:41 <olsner> and by "8" I do mean 7
22:52:30 <olsner> more fun with ocularities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_O vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Monocular_O
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23:15:04 <kmc> yeah the reference glyph (and every font i've seen) has 7 eyes
23:15:21 <kmc> but the original manuscript cited by the unicodeification proposal has 10 eyes
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23:16:06 <kmc> (linked from the svg image page you linked)
23:16:31 <oerjan> finally i'm on my new laptop. although it took my old laptop actually dying to get me to take the leap.
23:17:02 <oerjan> (it just wouldn't react to the power on button today ;_;)
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23:18:38 <kmc> what's the new one
23:20:06 <oerjan> 2 cores (4 hypersomethings), 4 Gb memory. (may supposedly add 4 Gb more.)
23:20:45 <oerjan> windows 8 and IE 10 are presently running on it. >:)
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23:21:30 <oerjan> i managed to find an actual desktop though, i was worried for a while that i'd have to change my habits as well...
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23:22:30 <oerjan> and putty installed fine with some confirmations, i had heard worrisome things about it not allowing unapproved stuff.
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23:23:00 <ais523> oerjan: windows 8 is basically two OSes stapled together
23:23:04 <ais523> one is windows 7, the other is awful
23:23:09 <ais523> PuTTY runs on the windows 7 side
23:23:23 <oerjan> so basically i'm going to start by making my setup as close to my old one as i can
23:23:40 <oerjan> ais523: ah yes. the other is like a cell phone os afaiu
23:24:11 <ais523> not just "like a cell phone OS", it literally runs on Microsoft's cellphones
23:24:18 <ais523> so it /is/ a cell phone OS
23:24:55 <oerjan> i am starting to think that my main frustration might be the new placement of keys on the keyboard...
23:25:16 <oerjan> pgup / pgdn are on the top row...
23:25:43 <ais523> on this laptop, they're below Return
23:28:09 <oerjan> hm i see there are duplicates in a numpad position, they might be easier to use
23:28:35 <ais523> your laptop is probably physically rather larger than mine
23:28:41 <ais523> I chose this one partly because it was light enough to carry on long walks
23:29:05 <oerjan> i have no particular intention to move this one around much, so...
23:30:00 <oerjan> hm do i have a ruler somewhere...
23:31:17 <Koen_> I can call my friend Anakin if you will, he's the galaxy's ruler
23:31:28 <oerjan> or rather, it's in the stuff i haven't got brought over from the old apartment yet
23:33:45 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, did you move in order to avoid killing your flatmates?
23:33:51 <ais523> I seem to remember some quotes about that
23:34:27 <oerjan> if i were to believe the user manual, it's a "notebook" and is not recommended for being on the lap at all. although i _guess_ that's just liability avoiding nonsense.
23:34:27 <Sgeo> There was a new Pixel Comic in 2012
23:34:31 <Sgeo> http://pixelcomic.net/287.php
23:35:30 <ais523> actually using portable computers on your lap is quite difficult
23:35:50 <oerjan> ais523: that would have been a good reason but actually it's because the landlady is planning to renovate and/or sell the house and gave me a year's notice.
23:36:17 <ais523> that's a reasonable amount of notice, too
23:36:30 <ais523> I hope your new set of flatmates is no worse than the old set
23:36:50 <oerjan> the empty set is quite nice, i think
23:37:42 <oerjan> although there are of course ordinary neighbors, this being ... what is it called in english...
23:38:23 <oerjan> the building has something like four floors with maybe ten flats in each
23:38:32 <ais523> I'm trying to remember what those are called too
23:38:43 <Koen_> a horizontal skyscrapper
23:39:04 <oerjan> and there is a row of those buildings, with construction work still ongoing at the next ones in one direction
23:39:12 <Koen_> hey I wonder if http://xkcd.com/1190/ is still updating every half hour
23:41:58 <oerjan> <ais523> actually using portable computers on your lap is quite difficult <-- my old one worked fine that way, although i suspect my doing so in recent weeks (i haven't got a proper table to put it on since i moved) may have hastened its demise (you may remember i've told about its worrisome quirks before)
23:42:57 <oerjan> and the new one is about the same but maybe a little more awkward touchpad (closer to the edge)
23:43:04 <ais523> I often put my laptop on top of a duvet, though (while I'm beneath the duvet), it's one of the more comfortable ways to use one in bed
23:44:53 <oerjan> the old laptop got a little warm but not unbearably so. the new one hasn't shown signs of heating yet but then i haven't really started browsing stuff.
23:45:18 <sprocklem> Koen_: according to the list on explainxkcd, yes it is
23:45:25 <oerjan> well significant heating that is, there's a little
23:46:15 <Koen_> sprocklem: we'll have confirmation in half an hour
23:47:54 <oerjan> anyway my back prefers it being on my lap to being on the coffee table.
23:51:55 <kmc> my laptop works great on my lap
23:52:00 <kmc> it's light and doesn't get too hot
23:52:53 <sprocklem> Koen_: Wait, no. Explain xkcd says after the 120th hour it has been lowered to one every hour.
23:53:26 <Koen_> I was about to discover that myself! you just spoiled all the experiencing out of me :(
23:55:43 <Fiora> I have this fan-base thing I bought that plugs into the USB port, it makes the heat a lot better
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23:57:13 <Fiora> to use mine in bed I usually lie on top of my pillow and put the laptop in front of it kind of
23:58:44 <oerjan> ais523: i cannot find a relative placement of pgup/pgdn/up/down which doesn't mess with my muscle memory :( (i know you know all about that since i'm stalking^Wfriending you on reddit)
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23:59:03 <ais523> wait, someone actually reads my reddit posts? :)
23:59:37 <ais523> it normally only takes me a couple of days to muscle-memorize a new keyboard layout
23:59:50 <ais523> this one is awkward, though, because control and fn and super and alt and ` are all small and next to each other
23:59:55 <ais523> so it's quite easy to hit the wrong one in the dark
00:00:08 <ais523> and it can take me a while to realise I'm trying to close a window with `-F4, for instance
00:01:15 <ais523> (no, ` is not next to alt on normal UK keyboards, it's normally above tab, but it doesn't fit there on this keyboard because it's quite short on space)
00:01:41 <oerjan> hm XD looks weird on this screen.
00:01:45 <ais523> for similar reasons, I rebound the window manager menu to alt-super rather than just super
00:01:58 <ais523> the two keys are as easy to hit intentionally as one, but harder to hit by mistake
00:03:22 <ais523> (for anyone reading who doesn't know, Super is the key that normally has the Windows logo on it)
00:03:25 <Fiora> my laptop keyboard for some reason put the windows key to the /right/ of the spacebar
00:03:29 <Fiora> it's very confusing
00:03:50 <Fiora> it goes... CTRL FN ALT SPACE \ ALT WIN CTL then arrows
00:04:50 <ais523> or doesn't it have one?
00:04:57 <zzo38> I would prefer to instead call the keys "Logo" and "Context" and have those words printed on them instead of the icons.
00:04:59 <Bike> that's weird. my laptop is smaller than yours and has more keys.
00:05:12 <Fiora> mine has a numpad too though
00:05:19 <Fiora> what's the menu key?
00:05:43 <ais523> the one that's usually equivalent to shift-F10 in most OSes (although not KDE)
00:06:05 <ais523> and likewise, is usually equivalent to right-clicking on whatever has keyboard focus
00:06:16 <ais523> I don't use it as much as I should, really
00:06:33 <ais523> (interestingly, Emacs interprets menu the same way it interprets meta-x, by default)
00:06:33 <Fiora> oh. I guess I don't have it
00:06:39 <zzo38> So it is the key I prefer to call "CONTEXT". In Windows SHIFT+F10 does that in many cases, and right-clicking does too; not all software uses that, as well as not all operating systems
00:06:45 <Fiora> I wonder why my keyboard has two \,| keys
00:06:53 <zzo38> Fiora: I have seen that too.
00:06:54 <Fiora> one's next to space, the other's in the 'normal' place below backspace
00:06:58 <Fiora> there must be some reason for that?
00:07:13 <zzo38> I think it is for when using alternate keyboard layouts, they are different.
00:07:19 <ais523> Fiora: it's normally because the Return key takes up the space that the top backslash key would use
00:07:28 <ais523> so it's on two spaces in the keyboard key sensors
00:07:37 <ais523> normally you extend space over one, or return over the other, depending on your layout
00:07:45 <ais523> sometimes people don't realise that and just put the key in both places
00:08:26 <oerjan> huh the putty shortcuts that it put in the "start menu" actually showed up in the win8 app "start menu"
00:08:33 <ais523> (this is for US keyboards; it's more complicated in the UK because of the # key)
00:08:44 <ais523> oerjan: there isn't a separate start menu
00:08:50 <ais523> so it's trying to do something vaguely backwards-compatible
00:08:52 <Fiora> http://gentechpcforums.com/system-images/Sager/Sager_NP9150/Sager_NP9150-3.jpg
00:08:54 <Fiora> oh yay there's mine
00:09:37 * Bike takes a moment to remember that some keyboards have numpads
00:09:46 <Bike> everything's so..... left..........
00:09:46 <zzo38> oerjan: O, maybe it does; I have once set up a computer for someone it had Windows 8 installed. I could still figure it out because the WIN+R to open the run menu is still the same, cmd.exe still works (I thought they would remove it in favor of PowerShell; luckily they kept cmd.exe and even added some more commands), and the other keyboard shortcuts still work even in fullscreen programs.
00:09:59 <ais523> oerjan: have you figured out how to turn it off yet, btw?
00:10:08 <ais523> there are something like five ways to do it, and /none/ of them are intuitive
00:10:28 <Fiora> Bike: my feelings are kind of split on that
00:10:32 <Fiora> like on the one hand, I don't think I've ever used it
00:10:46 <kmc> @oeis 3, 95, 98, 2000, 7, 8
00:10:48 <Bike> ok good i thought you were making a joke about the keyboard being split into keys and numpad.
00:10:52 <Fiora> on the other hand if it wasn't there, the keyboard would have probably been like 1/3 bigger
00:10:56 <Fiora> and a lot harder to use
00:11:16 <Bike> i can just about span my keyboard with one hand
00:11:21 <lambdabot> Period numbers of A133900 divided by n^2.[1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,4,1,6,1,4,3,1,1,...
00:11:38 <lambdabot> a(n) = period of the sequence {b(m), m>=0}, defined by b(m):=binomial(m+n,n)...
00:11:52 <Fiora> my hand totally stretched out goes from about the left side of the caps to the K/Lish
00:12:06 <kmc> @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 33, 42, 51
00:12:20 <ais523> I can get from A to = on this keyboard (to pick two keys which are in the same relative positions on it as they are on normal keyboards)
00:12:44 <kmc> @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 34
00:12:44 <Bike> Fiora: yeah what i mean is that it's very small proportionally.
00:12:45 <lambdabot> a(n) = solution to the postage stamp problem with 2 denominations and n stam...
00:12:45 <ais523> I think we've run out of Microsoft products to mock the version numbering of
00:12:57 <Fiora> you have like that mini netbook thing right?
00:13:04 <Fiora> though you also probably have bigger hands <.<
00:13:04 <Bike> Also that my hands are big, maybe.
00:13:18 <Bike> these hands were made for graspin'
00:13:27 <Fiora> hee hee my laptop is around two full hand-spans wide
00:13:31 <kmc> @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 34, 42
00:13:32 <lambdabot> Local stops on New York City Broadway line (IRT #1) subway.[14,18,23,28,34,4...
00:13:34 <kmc> there we go
00:13:49 <ais523> kmc: I was wondering if that's what you were aiming for :)
00:13:58 <ais523> also I'm amused it's in OEIS
00:14:17 <kmc> my first attempt was supposed to be the lexington line, which i thought was also in there
00:14:28 <kmc> the second attempt was correct for the 7th ave line, but ambiguous :/
00:14:57 <kmc> @oeis 14, 23, 28, 34, 42, 49, 57
00:16:36 <Fiora> @oeis 6,21,107,47176870
00:16:40 <lambdabot> Busy Beaver problem: a(n) = maximal number of steps that an n-state Turing m...
00:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott so i found an article explaining The Problem With Procedural Generation: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/TynanSylvester/20130602/193462/The_Simulation_Dream.php
00:18:25 <Bike> were you talking about that with elliott, or
00:18:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i mentioned it ages ago, also me and elliott had a bunch of teenage conversations about game design a while ago
00:19:34 <Bike> like... in that you're teenagers, or
00:19:57 <Fiora> that's a really cool article :o
00:20:24 <lambdabot> Dana Scott's sequence: a(n) = (a(n-2) + a(n-1) * a(n-3)) / a(n-4), a(0) = a(...
00:20:25 <kmc> itt we are teenagers
00:20:54 <Bike> The Michotte thing linked is pretty boss.
00:21:19 <Fiora> @oeis 5,13,29,61,125
00:21:19 <lambdabot> 2^n-3.[2,1,1,5,13,29,61,125,253,509,1021,2045,4093,8189,16381,32765,65533,13...
00:21:24 <Bike> Could do with hiding the text until you reveal it, though.
00:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, no, in the sense that we made all the mistakes that article mentions
00:21:28 <Bike> http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Discourse/Narrative/michotte-demo.swf
00:21:53 <Bike> Not sure I'd call that apophenia, exactly...
00:22:14 <Fiora> that makes a lot of sense
00:22:37 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i worry about that stuf sometimes too. i have ideas for games but think about things like "well, realistically not that many people would be dying in a war, let alone at the hands of one (player) character" but of course that's totally irrelevant
00:22:39 <Fiora> @oeis 2,3,5,13,65533
00:22:40 <lambdabot> Ackermann's function A(n,0).[1,2,3,5,13,65533]
00:22:43 <kmc> @oeis 1, 11, 21, 1211
00:22:43 <lambdabot> Look and Say sequence: describe the previous term! (method A - initial term ...
00:23:42 <Bike> I like how you can easily take the message of the article to real life, heh
00:23:54 <Bike> "people really don't have time to consider the dynamics of even the ten thousand people in their town"
00:24:58 <zzo38> Look and Say is also called many other things, but really it is just runlength encoding
00:25:07 <Fiora> I guess it's like, how the simulation acts vs how it works
00:25:15 <Fiora> that emergent behavior is okay, but it has to match up with expectations of what makes sense
00:25:29 <Fiora> I guess now I'm thinking of simcity traffic... XD
00:26:05 <kmc> @pl (\x -> [show $ length x, [head x]])
00:26:08 <lambdabot> ap ((:) . (show $) . length) ((: []) . flip ((:) . head) [])
00:26:08 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
00:27:22 <Bike> Fiora: what i'm getting out of it is kind of that people don't really know or care about it making sense, they want to play a game.
00:27:29 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: have you figured out how to turn it off yet, btw? <-- well the manual listed a couple
00:28:06 <Fiora> Bike: well like, it has to make sense to their mind so they can understand how it works
00:28:09 <zzo38> Bike: It depends what game, isn't it?
00:28:50 <Fiora> like in simcity people are like "wow these sims are incredibly dumb and don't do the sensible thing, so my brain-ideas of road structures don't work, because the simulation doesn't match intuition"?
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00:29:12 <Fiora> and it's not like, specifically how the simulation is implemented, but whether it matches common sense, so it's understandable
00:29:55 <Fiora> at least that's how it feels I don't know
00:30:05 <Bike> well, yeah, i'm not getting that out of the article though...
00:30:13 <Bike> also now i'm thinking of the Lem story simcity is based on argh
00:30:40 <Fiora> I guess my interpretation of the article is just that, it doesn't matter how fancy your simulation is, it matters that the product of that simulation makes sense to the players and fits in their mental model of the game?
00:30:45 <Fiora> so that they can play with it and have fun with it
00:30:51 <Fiora> instead of it being some complex, inscrutable monster
00:31:36 <kmc> @pl \x -> (show $ length x) ++ [head x]
00:31:38 <Fiora> also oh gosh the worst feeling in a sim game
00:31:40 <lambdabot> ap ((++) . id show . length) ((: []) . head)
00:31:40 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
00:31:43 <kmc> very odd that the result includes 'id show'
00:31:46 <Fiora> is like when you see something going wrong, like a badly optimized trade route or something
00:31:51 <Fiora> and you /can't figure out how to make it better/
00:31:58 <Fiora> because the simulation is too complicated or weird
00:32:10 <Fiora> so you keep poking at something hoping to twist it into doing what you want
00:32:50 <Bike> heh, like pathfinding in an RTS
00:32:54 <Bike> "no you fucking morons turn around"
00:32:59 <Bike> i guess that's why they added waypoints
00:34:07 <kmc> > iterate(concatMap(((++).show.length)<*>((:[]).head)).group)"1"
00:34:08 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
00:34:56 * Fiora tries to think of something she's played that was really egregious like that
00:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i think the point of the article was meant to just be that
00:35:51 <Bike> you could go the other way and make Lemmings :D
00:35:57 <Fiora> oh! Star Drive, that grand strategy master of orion type thing that came out a bit ago. the automated freighter system to move stuff around was really inscrutable and because the movement of freighters took so long it was really hard to get feedback on exactly what was moving where, and I constantly had planets running out of food
00:36:12 <Bike> at least it was realistic
00:36:24 <Fiora> and you could sort of mitigate it with tons of food storage but
00:36:43 <Fiora> well yes there's something fun about a game where crossing the map with your fleet takes 30 minutes XD
00:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> but yeah, your aim is to simulate things that can be easily and intuitively modelled by the player
00:37:35 <Fiora> I kinda feel like it also helps to have windows into the simulation, so it's not opaque
00:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (with the exception of like DF and lemmings where the craziness of the sim is half the fun)
00:37:48 <Fiora> like, so you can see more of the lower-level numbers
00:37:48 <Bike> i meant lemmings as being simplistic
00:38:02 <Bike> since they pretty much just go forward and all
00:38:13 <Bike> i just meant it's not very simulatey, intentionally of course
00:39:05 <zzo38> iterate (rle >=> \(x, y) -> [x, y]) [1]
00:39:12 <Bike> Fiora: "research ability gained: our engineers have found an exploit in the fabric of reality. you can now watch the processor registers"
00:39:42 <Fiora> that reminds me of one of the mods I loved in civ4, one of the features it added was like lots of little things like that
00:40:00 <zzo38> Bike: It resembles some D&D spell I wrote once called "Break Into Debugger"
00:40:02 <Fiora> so you could see how much effect a new building would have in the tooltip (not just "+10% science" but the actual + based on the current science)
00:40:16 <Fiora> or like, a breakdown of all the odds-multipliers in combat and how they affect things
00:40:24 <Fiora> so everything made so much more instant sense
00:43:43 <oerjan> > iterate((<**>[show.length,take 1]).group)"1"
00:43:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[GHC.Types.Char]' with `GHC.Types.Char'
00:43:46 <zzo38> kmc: You wrote some Haskell program for "look and say", but I like the one I wrote is better, or perhaps like this: lookAndSay = iterate (runLengthEncode >=> tupleToList) [1];
00:44:04 <oerjan> :t [show.length,take 1]
00:44:21 <oerjan> :t (<**>[show.length,take 1])
00:44:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you like my way better, or your way, or the other way?
00:44:47 <Bike> http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/ so this is pretty darkly funny
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00:46:31 <oerjan> zzo38: unless all the functions you used are in lambdabot's default environment, i don't think yours counts
00:47:21 <zzo38> (I also don't know if either function I wrote exists in any package, although I did define them myself.)
00:47:40 <oerjan> > iterate(concat.(<**>[show.length,take 1]).group)"1"
00:47:41 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
00:48:22 <zzo38> Or you can use let to define them within your expression, like let { ... } in ... if you prefer that way.
00:48:24 <Fiora> @oeis 341,561,645,115,1387
00:48:36 <Fiora> @oeis 561,1105,1729,2465
00:48:37 <lambdabot> Carmichael numbers: composite numbers n such that a^(n-1) == 1 (mod n) for e...
00:49:05 <NihilistDandy> There's a book site that gets mentioned here periodically, but I can't remember the name of it. Lots of CS and math books. Any thoughts?
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00:50:36 <Bike> that's pretty vague, man
00:51:02 <Bike> also all the cool kids just google stuff and pirate it.
00:51:34 <NihilistDandy> I know, there was just a specific one that occasionally gets mentioned.
00:52:14 <NihilistDandy> I mainly like it because of the selection. I don't have any difficulty pirating when necessary, this was just a convenient place
00:52:45 <zzo38> > let { runLengthEncode = map (length &&& head) . group; tupleToList (x, y) = [x, y]; } in iterate (runLengthEncode >=> tupleToList) [1]
00:52:46 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[2,1],[1,2,1,1],[1,1,1,2,2,1],[3,1,2,2,1,1],[1,3,1,1,2,2,2,1],[1...
00:53:12 <kmc> > let f c d n | n == 0 = z | e == d = f (c+1) d r | otherwise = 100 * f 1 e r + z where z = 10*c + d; (r,e) = n `divMod` 10 in iterate (f 0 1) 1
00:53:13 <lambdabot> [1,11,21,1211,111221,312211,13112221,1113213211,31131211131221,132113111231...
00:53:34 <oerjan> > iterate(sequence[show.length,take 1]<=<group)"1"
00:53:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' with `GHC.Base.String'
00:53:50 * Bike makes gagging gesture
00:54:02 <oerjan> :t sequence[show.length,take 1]
00:54:12 <Bike> but i don't think i've seen that anyway NihilistDandy, sorry. closest i can think of is readscheme but i haven't really seen it mentioned here.
00:54:53 <NihilistDandy> I'll have to go digging through the logs. It was either here or #haskell-blah, though I think it was both
00:55:21 <oerjan> > iterate(join.sequence[show.length,take 1]<=<group)"1"
00:55:21 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
00:55:21 <Fiora> biiike what's polylog(n)
00:56:08 <Bike> a polynomial in log
00:56:15 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylogarithmic_function
00:56:21 <Bike> like, a polynomial of log(n)
00:56:39 <Fiora> so like, log(n)^C ?
00:56:39 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo might be the one who mentioned it to me, now that I think of it. That or elliott. Though, given my memory, it might as well have been byorgey
00:56:46 <Bike> fiora: log(n) is polylog(n), as is log(n)³ and 3*log(n)⁴ - log(n)²
00:56:55 <kmc> oerjan: nice
00:57:17 <Fiora> so like, why is 2^(log(n)^c) not polynomial?
00:57:34 <Bike> uh... because that's not a polynomial? it's exponential in log(n).
00:57:46 <Fiora> but isn't it... not exponential in N?
00:57:50 <Fiora> I guess I'm confused >_<
00:58:18 <Fiora> like it's um... 2^(log(n)) * 2^(log(n)) ... c times
00:58:24 <Fiora> so that's... n*n*n*n... c times
00:58:28 <Fiora> or am I terrible at math
00:58:41 <Bike> ^ isn't associative
00:59:03 <Bike> you changed 2^(log(n)^c) to (2^log(n))^c
00:59:20 <Fiora> but isn't 2^(log(n)^2) equal to 2^(log(n)) * 2^(log(n))?
00:59:26 <Fiora> oh. that's 2^(2log(n))
00:59:46 <Bike> example: (2^3)^4 = fucking gigantic, 2^(3^4) = 4096
00:59:51 <Bike> 2417851639229258349412352 i guess
01:00:00 <Bike> reverse the order there.
01:00:32 <Fiora> so 2^(log(n)^c) is equal to n^(what)? *does math
01:01:30 <Bike> it equals (((2^log(n))^log(n))^log(n))^...
01:01:39 <oerjan> > iterate(shows.length<$>take 1<=<group)"1"
01:01:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Show.ShowS' with `[GHC.Types.Char]'
01:01:47 <Bike> um, probably. i am also bad at math.
01:02:00 <Fiora> 2^(log(n)^c) == n^f(n)
01:02:05 <Fiora> logN(2^(log(n)^c)) = f(n)
01:02:15 <Fiora> (log(n)^c)/log(n) = f(n)
01:02:22 <Fiora> log(n)^(c-1) = f(n) ?
01:02:37 <Fiora> so n^(log(n)^(c-1) == 2^(log(n)^c)?
01:02:54 <Bike> that's definitely not polynomial in n though
01:03:07 <Fiora> I guess I see where quasi-polynomial comes from then
01:03:15 <Fiora> it's like, it's not polynomial but it's not /that much bigger/
01:03:24 <oerjan> :t shows.length<$>take 1
01:03:26 <Bike> it's subexponential definitely
01:03:39 <Bike> "In mathematics, a quasi-polynomial (pseudo-polynomial) is a generalization of polynomials. While the coefficients of a polynomial come from a ring, the coefficients of quasi-polynomials are instead periodic functions with integral period." oh christ fiora
01:03:46 <oerjan> :t shows.length<$>take 1<=<group
01:03:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `ShowS' with `[c0]'
01:03:53 <Fiora> I meant the complexity class >_<
01:04:02 <oerjan> :t (shows.length<$>take 1)<=<group
01:04:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `ShowS' with `[c0]'
01:04:07 <Bike> yeah i know :P
01:04:11 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-polynomial_time#Quasi-polynomial_time
01:04:20 <Bike> "Quasi-polynomial time algorithms are algorithms which run slower than polynomial time, yet not so slow as to be exponential time" yeah i'd rather say subexponential honestly
01:04:44 <Fiora> so like... the expression they have there
01:04:52 <Fiora> that can describe *all* running times that are neither exponential nor polynomial?
01:05:05 <Bike> um, between them, probably?
01:05:05 <Fiora> erm, I mean, that are in between
01:05:13 <Fiora> so like, there's nothing bigger than QP but smaller than EXP?
01:05:39 <Bike> maybe like 2^(iterated log of n) is smaller
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01:05:58 <Bike> there are probably any number of weird functions you could put in there, they just don't come up in practice?
01:06:27 <Fiora> I guess... it just feels like "subexponential" is a bigger thing than just that?
01:06:36 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you trying to make a golf or something?
01:06:38 <Bike> oh here's an example
01:06:40 <Bike> "Another example is the best-known algorithm for the graph isomorphism problem, which runs in time 2O(√(n log n))."
01:06:47 <Bike> er, that's 2^O.
01:07:13 <zzo38> Is there a logic that can have not only the "material implication" but also the "tristate implication" (if the left side is false, the result is high-impedance)?
01:07:14 <oerjan> :t shows.length<$>take 1
01:07:27 <oerjan> how does that make sense...
01:09:18 <oerjan> :t (shows.length<$>take 1)"11"
01:09:51 <zzo38> I wonder if anyone is making a esolang "BelalCode"
01:09:54 <oerjan> > (shows.length<$>take 1)"11" ""
01:11:04 <oerjan> > iterate((shows.length<*>take 1)<=<group)"1"
01:11:05 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
01:11:30 <oerjan> > iterate(shows.length<*>take 1<=<group)"1"
01:11:31 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
01:11:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you trying to make a golf?
01:17:38 <zzo38> "'Tweety can fly' is a logical consequence of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird} but not of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird, Tweety is a penguin
01:18:05 <zzo38> "'Tweety can fly' is a logical consequence of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird} but not of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird, Tweety is a penguin}." This seems to me something related to a pull-up resistor???
01:18:45 <Bike> classical logic hasn't got a "typically"...
01:19:08 <zzo38> I know; it isn't classical logic.
01:20:21 <Bike> i mean, what logical consequence are you talking about
01:21:34 <Bike> because i wouldn't call that a logical consequence and it seems plenty unintuitive besides
01:22:17 <zzo38> I agree it isn't really a logical consequence, but maybe in some logic it can be.
01:22:52 <zzo38> It seems related to a pull-up resistor somehow
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01:23:26 <Bike> i don't think i want a logic where you can conclude a definite from a 'typically'...
01:24:34 <zzo38> Or to Inform 7, if you write something like "A bird can typically fly. A penguin is a bird. A penguin cannot fly. Tweety is a bird. Tweety is a penguin." (I don't know if this is actually a valid Inform 7 code, though)
01:25:49 <shachaf> As they say: All penguins are mortal. Tweety is mortal. Tweety is a penguin.
01:26:57 <zzo38> (I meant "A penguin is a kind of bird." but still maybe it is wrong)
01:27:11 <Bike> http://www.futek.com/images/pages/aboutus/Element_X.jpg it's good to know other industries have hiring practices as bizarre as IT
01:27:29 <zzo38> (In fact it probably is wrong; I don't know how to program in Inform 7, nor do I know how to program in Inform 6, actually)
01:28:12 <shachaf> Most philosophers are jerks. Socrates was a philosopher. Socrates was a jerk.
01:30:06 <zzo38> I agree that the conclusion is no good; I am just saying that maybe there can be some kind of logic that can have such things.
01:30:30 <shachaf> Who said the conclusion is no good?
01:30:48 <Bike> not wrt socrates. fuck that guy.
01:31:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe it is, but that doesn't make the conclusion good, any more than "If 2+2=4 therefore the sun is yellow" is good.
01:31:21 <Sgeo> Is Inform proprietary?
01:31:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think it was once, but now it isn't, as far as I know.
01:32:40 <shachaf> kmc: I replaced my IRC window with a counter to see how many times I switched to it.
01:34:08 <shachaf> (But I think the "home position" for my fingers has one finger on the 8 key now...)
01:34:36 <Sgeo> "Art Evolution: Surprisingly averted, whether intentionally or what. Rather sadly, there has been very little change in Illiad's art style from his very beginning strips to his most current - in almost 13 years his artistic style has remained very ... rough.
01:34:42 <Sgeo> (about User Friendly)
01:35:00 <kmc> has it changed in any other way
01:35:35 <Sgeo> It stopped producing new strips back in 2009...
01:35:38 <Sgeo> That's a change
01:35:45 <Bike> is it sgeo? is it?
01:35:50 <Bike> did user friendly ever exist outside of your mind
01:36:30 <Sgeo> Also, the introduction of new characters totally counts as a change. The book I bought as a kid started with the introduction of Dust Puppy)
01:39:20 <Sgeo> http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
01:40:09 <Bike> you bought a book of this shit?
01:40:28 <kmc> i read a lot of Dilbert as a small child
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01:42:12 <Sgeo> Bike, that's how I found out about it
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01:46:08 <Sgeo> I still read Dilbert every day >.>
01:46:32 <kmc> but it's bad
01:46:32 <Sgeo> Used to save a copy of every strip onto my computer when I was younger. Glad I don't need to do that anymore
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01:54:03 <oerjan> gah i tried using the formatted logs but the text is huge and zooming in IE 10 breaks the formatting...
01:59:56 <shachaf> Sgeo: I used to have all the `olist comics on my server!
02:00:03 <shachaf> In a few minutes I will again.
02:00:17 <shachaf> Does giantitp.com throttle or something?
02:00:33 <shachaf> By throttle I don't mean throttle.
02:00:39 <shachaf> I mean do they get upset if you download a lot.
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02:01:59 <kmc> do they 'throttle' you
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02:04:15 <zzo38> I have a robots.txt that has a command to slow down when making automated mirrors like this, although wget doesn't understand that command, so you have to use its own command.
02:04:48 <shachaf> Does gopher support it, though?
02:05:02 <shachaf> Or is gopher auto-throttled by the number of gopher users in the world?
02:05:22 <zzo38> Well, actually I made up a format for gopher to support it, although I don't know if it is used.
02:06:02 <zzo38> Access the selector named ".robot" (without quotes) in my computer, it does includes the command to slow down.
02:06:25 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org/0.robot
02:06:57 <zzo38> The 0 means the type code, it is a plain text file.
02:07:39 <zzo38> There are other type codes such as 1 for a menu, 7 if the user can enter the query text and then it is a menu, and 9 for downloading binary files.
02:08:09 <shachaf> What if I just use a space?
02:08:47 <zzo38> It depends on the client whether or not it will work.
02:09:18 <zzo38> The type code isn't send to the server so the server won't care if the client supports it or not.
02:09:29 <shachaf> Did you write your own gopher server?
02:09:50 <zzo38> Yes, but even if I didn't write my own gopher server, the same thing is true.
02:10:11 <shachaf> Is that why it doesn't work with most gopher clients I've tried?
02:11:14 <zzo38> No. It is that your gopher clients may be broken by using a slash as the selector string even when it is blank; someone (maybe it was you?) test it and said it did that. But there is a work around: Use "root" as the selector string.
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02:18:02 <NihilistDandy> I still haven't found any usable Gopher clients on OS X. Any recommendations?
02:18:26 <NihilistDandy> Then again, I think zzo38 is the only reason I've ever had cause to use gopher, so maybe I don't need it :D
02:18:48 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: I don't know. I wrote one in shell scripts (although it was written in MinGW and probably needs to be modified), so maybe that one works.
02:18:55 <Sgeo_> HTTP proxies for Gopher acceptable?
02:19:19 <zzo38> Sgeo_: For my server no; the router blocks it.
02:19:52 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Because the proxies won't make it so that Google won't index those proxies.
02:20:46 <zzo38> If you have a Windows emulator or some way to compile VB6 programs for non-Windows computers, you can also try Visgopher.
02:22:23 <zzo38> Yes, you can use that.
02:24:30 <shachaf> In languages with first-class continuations can you get the behavior of arbitrary monads to seem first-class?
02:25:50 <Sgeo_> zzo38 has Gopher, and I have Active Worlds
02:26:01 <Sgeo_> Except AW is proprietary I guess
02:26:18 <Sgeo_> shachaf, yes I think
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02:28:25 <Sgeo_> Dammit what's that library I fell in love with when I last looked at Scala
02:28:29 <Sgeo_> That's what I want to link shachaf to
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02:28:59 <kmc> it has the zzo38 nature
02:29:47 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: Simplicity is one.
02:29:54 <Sgeo_> shachaf, https://github.com/urso/embeddedmonads
02:30:19 <kmc> is there gopher over ssl
02:30:30 <zzo38> Also, the screen does not have to render HTML/CSS/etc which aren't suitable for it.
02:30:45 <zzo38> kmc: Probably you can do it if you want to; I don't know if any existing servers do.
02:31:10 <Sgeo_> But it's useless to have a server that does it if no clients do it
02:31:17 <kmc> wouldn't the gopher equivalent of SSL be SSL?
02:31:23 <Sgeo_> Unless it encourages clients to adapt it
02:31:26 <kmc> it's application protocol agnostic
02:32:04 <kmc> which is occasionally annoying, e.g. the duplication of HTTP Host: header and SSL's SNI
02:32:13 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is why it doesn't matter, if it uses it, if the client supports it, etc, just use something that allow you to make SSL connection with normal connections, and then clearly it will work.
02:32:19 <shachaf> Hmm, drracket is kind of nice as a lightweight experimenting with code thing.
02:32:55 <kmc> i think it's annoying to use Racket as a Scheme implementation
02:33:02 <kmc> if you do #lang r5rs then you lose out on libraries or something
02:33:37 <Sgeo_> Libraries that R5RS has no standard way to access anyway?
02:33:55 <zzo38> Maybe it could be a pseudo-TLD so that if you connect to "example.org.ssl" then the DNS client will interfere with it and make it a SSL connection locally in the network driver.
02:34:10 <kmc> zzo38: that is a strange idea, one that I kind of like
02:34:35 <kmc> oh well one problem is that #lang r5rs prints cons cells in a weird way
02:34:52 <kmc> Racket distinguishes mutable and immutable cons cells, and the former are written like {2 . 3} rather than (2 . 3)
02:35:01 <kmc> and r5rs cons creates a mutable cell, naturally
02:35:46 <kmc> hm but it's different if you select "R5RS" from the menu, it seems
02:36:20 <kmc> shachaf: http://docs.racket-lang.org/plot/ looks neat
02:36:51 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
02:40:47 <Sgeo_> I ... don't think I like how read console:// works in Rebol
02:40:59 <Sgeo_> If stdin is the console, it will only read one line
02:41:16 <Sgeo_> So can't really do cat with it... I think
02:42:26 <Sgeo_> I/O is very schemey in Rebol. Including Tcp
02:42:31 <Sgeo_> There's a tcp:// and a udp://
02:43:02 <zzo38> That logic about birds that can typically fly seems to me like pull-up resistors and pull-down resistors, kind of. Isn't it?
02:46:37 <Sgeo_> Here are the schemes available on my copy of Rebol3
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02:47:31 <Sgeo_> system:// console:// callback:// file:// dir:// event:// dns:// tcp:// clipboard:// http://
02:52:27 <shachaf> help how do delimited continuations work
02:52:50 <Bike> pray to oleg and ye shall receive
02:53:26 <Sgeo_> shachaf, when you shift, what you're shifting takes full control
02:53:38 <Sgeo_> But it's given an argument representing what would have been the rest of the computation
02:53:57 <Sgeo_> If it wants, it can feed that "rest of the computation" a value as many or as few times as it wants, and use those results as it pleases
02:54:04 <Sgeo_> And whatever it returns is the final result
02:55:01 <Sgeo_> It's much like >>=... >>= gets as an argument a function, which it can use as many or as few times as it wants to determine its final result
02:56:36 <Sgeo_> do { a <- ma; b <- mb }... the first >>= that that translates into gets to choose whether the rest of do block gets run at all, or how many times, and what happens to those... exactly like the expression given to shift gets to choose what happens to the rest of the computation, whether to use it and how many times in calculating its final result
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03:15:00 <shachaf> trying to write continuationy code in scheme and missing the feeling of fighting the type checker
03:15:23 <tswett> Delimited continuations seem like the sort of thing that might have an equivalent in category theory.
03:16:16 -!- tswett has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU.
03:17:05 <NihilistDandy> shachaf: Implement overly strict and completely nonsensical typechecker in scheme, hth
03:17:41 <Bike> error compiling (+ 4 5): type mismatch: Even, Odd
03:18:06 <tswett> Don't be ridiculous. + isn't a valid operation on Odd.
03:18:28 <tswett> Medical foods are foods that are specially formulated and intended for the dietary management of a disease that has distinctive nutritional needs that cannot be met by normal diet alone.
03:18:31 <shachaf> tswett: That's why you get an error!
03:18:42 <tswett> I think you should implement a typechecker based on PID controllers and neural nets.
03:18:51 <Bike> ooh, that sounds exciting.
03:20:27 <tswett> Instead of declaring the entire program to be either correct or incorrect, it simply assigns an error value to every little piece of the program.
03:21:49 <tswett> Your program will still run no matter what, but it will attempt to spend more time running code with a lower error value.
03:22:00 <tswett> If all of the code has a high error value, the program will just run really slowly.
03:22:01 <NihilistDandy> Then deletes the line, like fuckitjs or certain versions of GHC
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03:41:13 <Sgeo_> ** Script error: cannot use write on port! value
03:41:19 <Sgeo_> destination (port! file! url! block!)
03:43:29 <Sgeo_> I can't even manage to write a cat program in Rebol
03:46:02 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo_: What are these advanced semantics in Rebol?
03:46:42 <Bike> @tell phantom_hoover http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2RzY2Mzr94 game
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04:11:05 <zzo38> Did whoever added 'hazanavicius coraile oussama bin vodid muhammad jihad pirlgrimage "hello world" von dreyfus said' intend to make the BelalCode article? Well, it can be put back on in case it is actually made and that such a thing is working.
04:12:19 <Sgeo_> @tell Phantom_Hoover I'm going to design a Brainfuck-equivalent language.
04:13:12 <Sgeo_> (Not actually BF equiv. It won't be able to represent +- or >< or ]..[ or other such atrocities that I can think of.
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04:13:46 <zzo38> Actually I am one thought of things like that too, a kind of compression that cannot represent such things.
04:15:01 <shachaf> ion: kmc can confirm that anything + acid is a nice combination
04:15:26 <Sgeo_> So, my ideas: In some circumstances, some characters are impossible. With only 7 commands taken, there's room for one pseudocommand. Let that command expand into two commands on decompression. I _think_ that would work on random data
04:15:27 * pikhq snickers a bit at the PS4 press con at E3.
04:15:42 * pikhq shall sum it up for you: "Playstation: It's Not Xbox."
04:16:25 <Bike> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA
04:16:28 <Sgeo_> But let's try this: It expands into the previous character twice. And, if the previous was a pseudocharacter, then that pseudocharacter's character to expand into 4 times
04:17:04 <Sgeo_> Don't know if RLE might be a better idea
04:17:09 <Sgeo_> But this is certainly interesting
04:17:22 <Sgeo_> Are there circumstances that would give room for two pseudocharacters?
04:17:51 <Sgeo_> erm, pseudocommands
04:18:57 <Sgeo_> Also, are there better ways to do fewer than 3 bits per command? Since each command after 1 is restricted doesn't need 3 bits, what ways besides a pseudocharacter that expands into two could take advantage of that?
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04:23:59 <zzo38> Use some dynamic Huffman, maybe, with the checking of what is redundancy, possibly in more ways that your specification.
04:25:26 <zzo38> Someone wrote comment about Malbolge, on the "99 bottles of beer" program, the comment: HOW can human (without drinking 99 bottles of bear) write in this language???
04:25:37 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Arithmetic encoding?
04:25:43 <zzo38> Can you write in this language if you drink 99 bottles of beer (or of bear)?
04:26:05 <pikhq> One can get fractional bits that way.
04:27:38 <Sgeo_> I need 3 bits/command most of the time, it's only on occasion that I can get away with a little less
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04:32:50 <kmc> shachaf: disconfirm
04:40:29 <shachaf> http://ericlippert.com/2013/06/10/construction-destruction/ was pretty confusing when I thought it was talking about C++.
04:41:03 <kmc> ah it's C#
04:41:28 <kmc> there are small syntactic clues but i definitely can imagine skimming it and thinking it's C++
04:42:01 <Sgeo_> ....system/ports/output isn't completely implemented yet
04:43:45 <kmc> what was the context of your acid claim anywaychaf
04:44:01 <shachaf> 21:14 <ion> Btw, tables + acid-state is a nice combination.
04:44:19 <kmc> i wish there were some state of the US particularly known for its acid
04:44:20 <Sgeo_> Of course Rebol 2 is more stable. It's also proprietary.
04:44:23 <shachaf> in the past kmc has compared """acid-state""" to haskell
04:44:31 <Sgeo_> I don't think anyone wants a deadfish impl. in a proprietary language
04:44:36 <kmc> EVERYONE WANTS IT
04:44:39 <kmc> DEADFISH IN MIRANDA NOWWW
04:44:53 <shachaf> (acid-state is a drugz euphemizm btw)
04:45:02 <kmc> we're on the same page shacha
04:45:07 <kmc> (page of blotter acid that is)
04:45:14 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Well, I don't, but you can do it if you want it, I suppose.
04:45:33 <Sgeo_> zzo38, I want Rebol 3 to be in a half decent state
04:46:17 <kmc> https://www.google.com/search?q=blotter+paper+lsd&tbm=isch
04:46:29 <Sgeo_> read-char: does [to string! read/part console:// 1]
04:46:33 <shachaf> plz uze encrypted.google.com thx hth
04:47:19 <shachaf> I don't remember what it oes better but it does something better.
04:47:25 <Sgeo_> (does is just a convenient way to make an anonymous func that doesn't take arguments)
04:48:24 <Sgeo_> "According to Google, the difference is with handling referrer information when clicking on an ad."
04:48:31 <Sgeo_> http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/32367/what-is-the-difference-between-https-google-com-and-https-encrypted-google-c
04:48:59 <shachaf> kmc: btw once i consumed a whole bunch of acid and it messed with my tongue for days
04:49:14 <shachaf> (i'm referring to citric acid * malic acid of course)
04:50:36 <shachaf> Should I get in the habit of using * instead of +?
04:50:47 <shachaf> When you have both of two things, instead of either of two things.
04:51:31 <shachaf> E.g. tables * acid-state is a nice combination.
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04:52:33 <shachaf> whoa dude it's like a u with another u above it
04:52:42 <kmc> a u with another u's hat on
04:56:04 <shachaf> U+2F31D COMBINING BRITISH ACCENT
04:57:32 <kmc> itym ACCENT INDICATOR + COMBINING ACCENT COUNTRY CODE U + COMBINING ACCENT COUNTRY CODE K
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05:01:49 <kmc> what does "seuta keulaepeuteu" mean
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05:03:23 <kmc> oh it's a romanization of the korean name for StarCraft?
05:03:47 <shachaf> it means "bug in google translate"
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05:04:29 <kmc> google doesn't do phonetic latin typing for korean
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05:05:49 <kmc> korean: secretly related to finnish?
05:07:44 <Bike> i'm sure some linguist has proposed that
05:07:51 <Bike> finnish isn't IE either!!
05:08:26 <Bike> http://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-the-Finnish-and-Korean-languages-may-share-a-common-root i fucking love quora
05:12:03 <Bike> wow why does that work
05:12:46 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural%E2%80%93Altaic_languages oh fuck me it really is a theory.
05:18:02 <NihilistDandy> kmc: I've been rather miffed about the lack of phonetic typing for Korean in Google Translate, recently
05:18:20 <Bike> how is korean typed?
05:18:38 <kmc> one jamo at a time
05:18:43 <Bike> don't be a smartass please
05:18:58 <Bike> i was reading about burmese input yesterday and am now reasonably sure typing is impossible
05:19:15 <NihilistDandy> It's actually not bad once you understand hangul, a bit
05:19:21 <shachaf> is that the dual of rean (categoriez joke)
05:19:32 <kmc> maybe that's why they don't have internet in burma
05:20:26 <kmc> why do you need those
05:21:09 <kmc> reading the packaging of Shin Ramyun
05:21:49 <Bike> "Today, a good working knowledge of Chinese characters is still important for anyone who wishes to study older texts (up to about the 1990s), or anyone who wishes to read scholarly texts in the humanities."
05:21:58 <Bike> hm. (though i think that's a typo for "1890s")
05:22:10 <NihilistDandy> Well, why did I learn Latin? To see connections between all the Romance languages. Learn hanja for the same reason one learns hanzi or kanji, I guess
05:22:32 <Bike> does that really work, i mean, korean and chinese aren't related like romance languages are
05:23:18 <kmc> is the choice of symbols based on pronunciation or meaning or a terrible mix of both?
05:23:40 <zzo38> Learn Latin because it is a dead language so existing words and grammar and so on no longer changes/evolves (although new words are occasionally made up, still)
05:24:10 <Bike> kmc: iirc kanji have never been pronounced very much like chinese?
05:24:32 <Bike> «One way of adapting hanja to write Korean in such systems (such as Gugyeol) was to represent native Korean grammatical particles and other words solely according to their pronunciation. For example, Gugyeol uses the characters 爲尼 to transcribe the Korean word "hăni", in modern Korean, that means "does, and so". However, in Chinese, the same characters are read as the expression "wéi ní," meaning "becoming a nun."»
05:24:47 <zzo38> Bike: Kind of, especially in compound words, but still it is an approximation.
05:25:01 <Bike> shachaf: bikepodes
05:25:43 <NihilistDandy> I don't know much Chinese, but apparently in Mandarin the sound of a character is derived from the main radical and then that is effected by another radical (usually to indicate the consonant sound)
05:26:02 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: I think I read about that, too
05:26:07 <Bike> i was reading a korean comic and a high school student insulted another student's mislinguistics by saying King Sejong would be rolling in his grave
05:26:10 <Bike> so that was weird
05:26:30 <NihilistDandy> Japanese pronunciation of kanji is similar to the Mandarin, but the "Japaneseness" is still quite evident
05:26:43 <NihilistDandy> Once you'ev seen a lot of the words next to each other, the patterns are easier to spot
05:26:57 <NihilistDandy> I don't know enough Korean, yet, to say anything similar
05:27:32 <shachaf> speaking of korean comics did you see that terrible korean comic
05:27:47 <Bike> um, i've read a lot of terrible comics from various places
05:27:55 <Bike> maybe i read whatever you're referring to? it's possible!
05:28:01 <shachaf> @google that terrible korean comic
05:28:02 <lambdabot> http://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=350217&no=20&weekday=tue
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05:28:06 <shachaf> terrible in the sense of unpleasant
05:28:21 <zzo38> Japanese kanji has different reading, kun-yomi, on-yomi, and in one page of the Akagi manga I have even seen a kanji that is using the English reading!
05:28:25 <Bike> oh is it the horror story one
05:29:24 <zzo38> I didn't know they used the English reading of kanji, ever, but they did just once in Akagi.
05:31:00 <Bike> it's weird how like every korean webcomic is on naver. whoever runs that's got a pretty good monopoly
05:32:26 <Bike> yeah it's pretty mediocre but that's horror for you.
05:34:02 <shachaf> wait the version i saw was in english
05:34:06 <shachaf> is this even the same comic
05:34:27 <Bike> i;m so fucking helped right now
05:36:06 <kmc> i don't understand why programmers get paid so much money
05:36:38 <Bike> because they're covered in shit
05:36:40 <kmc> how much do plumbers get paid
05:36:56 <kmc> it's true that most programming is plumbing
05:37:34 <kmc> what distinguishes the $35/hr plumbers from the $75/hr plumbers
05:37:43 <kmc> also how easy/hard is it to get 40hrs of work per week
05:37:46 <Bike> minimalism and craftsmanship
05:38:01 <NihilistDandy> Experience, I guess. I think it's largely an apprenticeship sort of trade
05:38:40 <kmc> i think there have been various proposals to reorganize programming as an apprenticeship sort of trade
05:38:45 <kmc> i don't know if it's a good idea or not
05:39:08 <kmc> i do feel like most of the practical stuff I know I've learned on the job rather than in school
05:39:22 <kmc> but the stuff I learned in school has enriched my life and indirectly makes me better at practical stuff too
05:39:44 <Bike> i wonder how many people are even qualified to compare and contrast training/certification models
05:40:30 <Bike> we should find a plumber who dabbles in database programming
05:40:52 <kmc> probably relatively few
05:40:56 <Gregor> The problem with apprenticeship-style jobs of all sorts is that it's hard to get into.
05:41:02 <Bike> i guess academia is... sort of apprenticey...
05:41:03 <kmc> probably almost no intersection with the people who write blog posts about how programmers should be taught / managed / hired
05:41:04 <Gregor> Plumbers usually have plumbers in the family.
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05:41:34 <kmc> Bike: well once you're a tenured professor you aren't getting your hands dirty so much anymore
05:41:36 <Bike> @google plumbing blog
05:41:39 <lambdabot> Title: All Area Plumbing Blog - Ask The Plumber Blog | Plumbing Advice | Affordable ...
05:41:42 <kmc> much of the work is done by the apprentices
05:41:52 <Bike> kmc: tht's it. we need professors to take up plumbing
05:42:06 <kmc> i was reflecting earlier on the fact that I don't know a single person who dropped out of grad school and regrets the decision
05:42:32 <kmc> which is not to say nobody should do grad school, but if you're on the fence about it then maybe it's not for you
05:42:32 <Gregor> Unless your goal is to be a professor, grad school in CS is almost totally pointless.
05:42:35 <kmc> like startups!
05:42:38 <Bike> as someone who's intending to go to grad school it's uh, there's a lot of reasons not to be encouraged
05:42:44 <Bike> (not that it's in CS)
05:42:45 <kmc> Gregor: yes, in fact you can do much better research in industry, in many cases
05:42:48 <kmc> Bike: bio?
05:42:56 <Bike> weird neurocrap, hopefully
05:43:05 <kmc> i know someone doing neurocrap at Brown
05:43:29 <Gregor> But if you're in math, you can't make anything of your degree at any level.
05:43:33 <kmc> math grad students seem abnormally happy compared to CS or experimental science ones
05:43:37 <Bike> related: did you know there are articles like "An implantable wireless neural interface for recording cortical circuit dynamics in moving primates" in real journals that you can really read
05:43:42 <Bike> kmc: it's all the amphetamines
05:43:43 <kmc> Gregor: are the days of hiring maths students in finance over?
05:43:49 <Gregor> kmc: I am the happiest human being alive.
05:43:58 <Bike> http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/10/2/026010
05:44:32 <Bike> i've heard math grads are different from other grads though
05:44:38 <Bike> like you don't know what you're going to study, going in
05:44:56 <kmc> yeah, I'm told that you spend your first few years reading a few of those yellow death books and working all the problems
05:45:18 <kmc> at which point you know which sub-sub-sub-field of math you want to study, and you find the six people in the world who do the same
05:45:28 <kmc> Springer Verlag Graduate Texts in Mathematics
05:45:36 <kmc> http://math.arizona.edu/~savitt/GTM.html
05:45:37 <Bike> oh god, the horror
05:45:37 <NihilistDandy> Bike: That's pretty true. I think I'm going to focus on algebra, but that's pretty vague
05:45:47 <kmc> and then you just like chill with those six people
05:46:00 <Bike> maybe math should like be split up
05:46:05 <Bike> it sure seems like there's a lot of it!
05:46:22 <kmc> and more as quickly as people can think it up
05:46:30 <Bike> like wtf does an algebraist have to talk about with a dynamicist most of the time
05:46:40 <Bike> it's like if you grouped ethologists and immunologists together
05:46:40 <NihilistDandy> So much. Calculus taught me that continuous math is weird and unpleasant to me, so everything I like to do now is discrete and perfect and beautiful :D
05:46:50 <Bike> tsk. continuity 4 lyfe.
05:46:51 <coppro> Bike: hell, most schools have only a small department of math
05:46:53 <Gregor> Oh by the way guys the Apple keynote at WWDC mentioned some of my stuffs.
05:46:59 <coppro> our school does it right
05:47:04 <Bike> Gregor: can i have your autograph
05:47:13 <coppro> Gregor: the CBC put my name in an article, therefore I'm famous
05:47:16 <coppro> in fact, they quoted me
05:47:21 <Bike> wow, you really are a grad student
05:47:22 <NihilistDandy> I had Dummit for Algebra, so I feel pretty awesome :D
05:48:16 <Bike> another real neuroshit paper that's sci-fi as fuck is "Improving brain-machine interface performance by decoding intended future movements" but alas i lack pubmed access
05:49:05 <Bike> or well i guess it's JNE again hm
05:49:17 <Bike> http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/10/2/026011/
05:49:30 <Bike> i wonder how the cyborg monkeys feel about all this
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05:57:19 <Bamba705> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
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05:58:21 <kmc> ya got iBooted
05:58:42 <NihilistDandy> Bike: Sadly, my university's PubMed shit seems to have disappeared :(
05:59:10 <Bike> thanks anyway, i'll just have to content myself with CPG legs
06:08:23 <Bike> "iBooTer is the one of the best Booters on the internet. Cheap & Great attack strength with 24/7 Support!! So come join the Family" i'm excited
06:08:31 <NihilistDandy> Nevermind, Had to go to their terms of service to figure out what the hell service they offer.
06:09:16 <NihilistDandy> Also, for those prices I hope they actually deliver
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06:17:42 <shachaf> kmc: itym chiiiiiiiiip hth
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07:23:05 -!- kmc has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU.
07:23:20 -!- kmc has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU | nid wyf yn y swyddfa.
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08:36:50 <olsner> <Gregor> Oh by the way guys the Apple keynote at WWDC mentioned some of my stuffs. <-- what kind of stuffs?
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09:47:14 <fizzie> Want to take someone's offline friends? Just murder them and their friends will be all yours: that's how it works.
09:47:15 <olsner> fungot: Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website?
09:47:15 <fungot> olsner: but, it's this crazy/ wacky issue settled first, but it's a more familiar feeling, but never one to believe in love at all? is that the story?
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11:03:05 <Phantom_Hoover> so does anyone know the limit of (1/e)x^e as e -> 0 for positive x? i'm thinking it's ln x but i'm not sure
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11:05:34 <Fiora> wolfram alpha says it's infinity from positive direction, -inf from negative?
11:05:54 <Fiora> and the series expansion is 1/c + log(x) + c/2 * log(x)^2 + O(c^2)
11:05:59 <Fiora> so I guess that basically reduces to 1/c
11:09:04 <Fiora> because it thought e was the constant -_-
11:09:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (i got that expression by integrating x^(e-1) on the assumption that integration was continuous fwiw)
11:10:03 <Fiora> so I did um... 1/c * x^c as c->0
11:10:43 <Phantom_Hoover> that log x term in the series expansion looks tantalising though
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12:07:20 <Phantom_Hoover> when x=e (the actual constant, that is) the limit isn't well-defined
12:08:23 <Fiora> it's 1/e + log(x) so it's not well defined to begin with is it?
12:08:28 <Fiora> since 1/0 is well yeah
12:09:43 <Fiora> the log(x) would be swamped, I'd think
12:10:46 <Taneb> Should I buy Scrolls?
12:12:31 <Taneb> Not as in bits of paper
12:12:56 <elliott> "We do not want to be the first software in history to be delayed due to a dwindling supply of cats" -- apple at wwdc
12:13:07 <elliott> finally apple tackles the real issues
12:15:15 <Taneb> That seems to be exactly the opposite problem Bay 12 games is facing
12:22:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you've impressed the awfulness of their coding style upon be sufficiently to deter me from applying to work for Mojang as a programmer
12:22:39 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
12:22:41 <fizzie> fungot: Will you, yourself, bring an end to all of this?
12:22:41 <fungot> fizzie: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine!
12:22:43 <Taneb> And the quality of planning of Notch
12:22:53 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot to tell the bestest thing!
12:23:01 <Taneb> But seeing as Notch had little contribution to Scrolls...
12:23:43 <fizzie> Yesterday, in Lugano, when we went to the hotel to pick up our luggage, an Indian-looking woman came to me and asked if I was "the creator of Minecraft"; apparently her son was completely convinced I was.
12:23:59 <fizzie> Though I don't look at all like Notch, except for having a similar hat.
12:24:17 <fizzie> I do (allegedly, anyway) resemble Jeb a bit, though, so maybe it was just a communications problem.
12:24:23 <fizzie> (Not that I'm either of them.)
12:24:46 <fizzie> Perhaps all Scandinavians look alike to "them".
12:25:15 <fizzie> Oh, it was the day before yesterday. Anyway.
12:32:07 <elliott> `learn fizzie is the creator of Minecraft.
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12:36:58 <fizzie> I don't really know about hats, but I have this thing that's a bit like one, I guess.
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15:05:49 <Taneb> Today I made a little emacs cheet sheet
15:07:13 <Taneb> I can barely read it
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15:48:53 <fizzie> You should configure a key combination in your Emacs to access it.
15:49:10 <fizzie> The key combination should be prominently listed on top of the cheat sheet, since you'll be needing it often.
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16:21:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, btw, thanks for your anthracite mod
16:21:45 <HackEgo> Thanks, anthracite. Thanthracite.
16:26:11 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe one day i should flesh that out and balance it (ahahaha)
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16:28:05 <Phantom_Hoover> did i give you the components that adjusted iron ore distribution, i don't remember
16:35:24 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, maybe, I've got loads of iron ore
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16:36:11 <Taneb> I've made a fortress that's 4 years old without trade
16:36:25 <Phantom_Hoover> especially the magnetite deposits, those things are way too big to be in every other layer
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16:59:38 <elliott> http://www.sayitwithbacon.com set fire to america
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17:16:32 <mnoqy> the world's most tasteful gift
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17:21:28 <`0x00> this is a cool channel.
17:21:38 <`0x00> i found it randomly. has been around for a while?
17:22:00 <HackEgo> `0x00: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:22:04 <mnoqy> how long is a while
17:22:10 <mnoqy> it's been around like a week at least
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17:35:56 <mnoqy> yes its pretty amazing
17:36:44 <shachaf> @google 1 week in nanoseconds
17:37:17 <shachaf> @google 1 week in nanoseconds
17:37:24 <elliott> `frank 1 week -> nanoseconds
17:37:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: frank: not found
17:37:34 <mnoqy> `frink 1 week -> nanoseconds
17:37:52 <shachaf> oh lambdabot isn't even in here
17:38:22 <shachaf> I like how my lambdabot /query got messed up and renamed to /query Guestblahblahblah.
17:38:41 <elliott> he has a cron job or something running the *old* lambdabot
17:38:48 <elliott> which I then tried to "debug" the L.hs of
17:38:56 <elliott> not realising it was the old lambdabot
17:39:09 <shachaf> Messing up my /query isn't a very Caley behavior.
17:39:33 <shachaf> Oops, I just realized I closed my lambdabot window which had my list of suggestions for lambdabot.
17:40:10 -!- lambdabot has joined.
17:40:24 <shachaf> People in ##categorytheory were complaining about the absence of lambdabot.
17:40:32 <elliott> oh, is it not in the join list?
17:40:34 <shachaf> For some reason I'm not in the admin list... I wonder why.
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17:40:42 <mnoqy> ##categorytheory ?
17:41:01 <mnoqy> is that a good channel
17:41:32 <shachaf> a good channel is a dead channel
17:42:10 <shachaf> Other suggestions were to fix the quote thing to be more like HackEgo rather than the nick->quote nonsense.
17:42:27 <shachaf> 10:41 -!- `0x00 [~ping@u.nxsh.org] has joined ##categorytheory
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17:42:30 <elliott> well, it's nice that you can quote non-IRC things non-awkwardly
17:43:02 <shachaf> <SaulGorn> ... is just as non-awkward.
17:43:31 <elliott> 18:43:07 <elliott> > id18:43:09 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:43:32 <shachaf> alt. literally add "SaulGorn says: ..." to the quote database
17:43:35 <elliott> 18:43:09 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M1506157215.show_M1506157215'18:43:09 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous18:43:09 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)18:43:09 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
17:43:40 <elliott> 18:43:11 <lambdabot> [7 @more lines]
17:43:53 <elliott> I wonder why ExtendedDefaultingRules aren't firing????
17:44:00 <shachaf> so why am i not in the @admin list
17:45:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you gotta problem with saul gorn
17:46:12 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:46:12 <mnoqy> i cant look saul gorn up because my dns isnt working
17:46:16 <elliott> does anyone know why these would differ
17:46:51 <mnoqy> maybe one of thos extended defaulting rules isnt extended =enough=
17:46:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable b0)
17:47:06 <shachaf> http://128.91.234.106/~rclark/gorn.html
17:47:08 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable1 m0)
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17:47:30 <mnoqy> maybe it's the show constraint on print?
17:47:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:48:09 <mnoqy> i think its Show but why
17:48:57 <mnoqy> this is a good compendium
17:49:06 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
17:49:56 <mnoqy> > undefined :: a -> a
17:49:57 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:49:57 <elliott> maybe because its "wrapped in a print"
17:50:08 <elliott> so that induces a Show constraint
17:50:10 <mnoqy> > undefined :: Show a => a -> a
17:50:26 <elliott> isn't it meant to default everything to ().......
17:50:31 <elliott> including things you wanna be Typeable
17:50:32 <mnoqy> > undefined :: Typeable a => a -> a
17:50:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:50:35 <elliott> > undefined :: Typeable a => a
17:50:42 <mnoqy> thats not a function
17:51:00 <mnoqy> itll only do the Show instance for -> if its a function
17:51:09 <mnoqy> and the Show instance for -> is what needs typable
17:51:09 <elliott> you don't understand what i was checking for
17:51:14 <elliott> you don't understand what i was checking for.
17:51:25 <elliott> anyway, my current hypothesis is maybe ExtendedDefaultingRules don't apply to the prerequisites of an instance
17:51:25 <mnoqy> but its obvious that itd give an exception????
17:51:42 <elliott> I was wondering whether it would default with Typeable there
17:52:43 <mnoqy> why is show strict for ()!!!!!!!!
17:53:00 <shachaf> mnoqy: it s better that way...........................................
17:54:07 <shachaf> wow lambdabot has really gone downhill
17:54:11 <lambdabot> Data.Void: Can't be safely imported! The module itself isn'...
17:54:12 <lambdabot> Data.Void: Can't be safely imported! The module itself isn'...
17:54:33 <elliott> maybe I should just fix the packages in question.
17:54:39 <elliott> I think I have commit rights to all of them except parallel.
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19:29:39 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting ++ ")}" in read disgusting
19:29:40 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:29:53 <elliott> > let foo = In (Just foo) in foo
19:29:56 <lambdabot> In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = J...
19:30:16 <ion> In (Just ice)
19:30:17 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:23 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:29 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:42 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:45 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:48 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:51 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:54 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:59 <Bike> simply fantastic
19:31:00 <elliott> maybe it's an actual infinite loop
19:31:08 <elliott> i assign ion to ionvestigate
19:31:11 <nooodl> i can't imagine it not being an actual infinite loop...
19:31:43 <Taneb> elliott, have you seen the monstrosities ion attempts with tables
19:31:44 <ion> I delegate elliott to ellook at it.
19:31:54 <elliott> Taneb: yes I get bloody emails about them thanks to edwardk
19:31:57 <elliott> despite not really caring about tables at all
19:32:00 <Bike> is the parser expected to be able to read infinitely nested text
19:32:22 <elliott> because it'd be the super-cute's
19:32:37 <elliott> > read "In {out = poo" :: Mu ()
19:32:38 <lambdabot> The first argument of `Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste...
19:32:45 <elliott> > read "In {out = poo" :: Mu Maybe
19:32:48 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:32:55 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (poo" :: Mu Maybe
19:32:58 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:33:03 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe
19:33:08 <ion> > read ("In {out = " ++ repeat ' ') :: My Maybe
19:33:12 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `My'
19:33:16 <ion> > read ("In {out = " ++ repeat ' ') :: Mu Maybe
19:33:18 <lambdabot> In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})}
19:33:26 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe
19:33:32 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe
19:33:36 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:33:41 <lambdabot> newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) }
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19:33:57 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})}" :: Mu Maybe
19:34:00 <lambdabot> In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})}
19:34:06 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In {out = " :: Mu Maybe
19:34:14 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In {out = " :: Mu Maybe
19:34:17 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:34:20 <nooodl> elliott, how would that ever parse
19:34:23 <lambdabot> *** "4" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:34:23 <lambdabot> adj 1: being one more than three [syn: {four}, {4}, {iv}]
19:34:23 <lambdabot> n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of three and one [syn:
19:34:25 <lambdabot> {four}, {4}, {IV}, {tetrad}, {quatern}, {quaternion},
19:34:25 <elliott> nooodl: it could partially parse
19:34:27 <lambdabot> {quaternary}, {quaternity}, {quartet}, {quadruplet},
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19:34:46 <Bike> what did i do wrong :<
19:34:47 <elliott> so i can't do my silly infinitely long read
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19:35:21 <nooodl> > read $ "[" ++ cycle "1,"
19:35:22 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
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19:35:39 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:35:58 <Bike> > let x = sqrt (2 + x) in x
19:36:23 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:36:30 <nooodl> oh i need to... type it...
19:36:31 <Bike> wow this is awesome.
19:36:44 <elliott> Bike: this ain't mathematica boy
19:36:46 <Taneb> > read "In {out = \"shake it all about\"}" :: Mu String
19:36:47 <lambdabot> The first argument of `Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste...
19:37:03 <Bike> elliott: literaly angry with rage, here
19:37:27 <Bike> ramanujan "not good enough for you"???
19:37:40 <nooodl> > read $ "[" ++ cycle "1," :: [Int]
19:38:29 <Taneb> > runIdentity $ read "Identity {runIdentity = ()}"
19:38:33 <elliott> Bike: btw I bet you could make a really evil type that let you do that sqrt (2 + x) thing
19:38:50 <elliott> use observable sharing to build up an expression graph
19:39:02 <Bike> you realize x is just two right
19:39:05 <elliott> use a symbolic representation like the simple-reflect trick for the rest:
19:39:14 <Taneb> > read "Identity {runIdentity = ()}" :: Identity ()
19:39:17 <elliott> and then solve the whole thing as an equation in the Show instance
19:39:24 <elliott> so that you could input let x = sqrt (2 + x) in x and get 2.0 out
19:39:35 <Bike> that sounds idiotic, so, let's see it
19:39:35 <elliott> in fact, I almost want to try.
19:39:49 <elliott> you could even ship off the equations to satisfy to Maxima or whatever
19:40:13 <elliott> you don't understand how tempting this is
19:40:29 <Bike> and then /cs clear users in #haskell
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19:41:41 <Bike> by the way, the reason i thought it wasn't working is because my connection died in such a way that i didn't receive any messages after lambdabot's sourcing Mu
19:41:42 <elliott> i'm literally giggling over having this idea
19:42:02 <Bike> so i'm pretty confused about how that got into the log and your client without me getting 2.0 back? fuck this connection is what i'm saying
19:43:50 <Taneb> Hang on, elliott is running lambdabot
19:43:54 <Taneb> You know what this means
19:44:45 <Bike> so speaking of stupid ideas i don't even get how the infinite parse is supposed to work
19:44:50 <Bike> it doesn't even end with infinite brackets!
19:44:53 <Bike> offensive imo.
19:45:50 <Taneb> elliott, are you running lambdabot locally?
19:46:01 <Taneb> Like, on your computer?
19:46:11 <Taneb> Because if you are
19:46:15 <nooodl> > cycle "In {out = Just (" ++ "Nothing" ++ cycle ")}"
19:46:15 <lambdabot> "In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = ...
19:46:17 <Taneb> Then lambdabot is in Hexham!
19:46:28 <elliott> Bike: well, you can imagine Mu's parser would be like this: read ("Mu {out = " ++ s ++ "}") = Mu {out = read s}
19:46:29 <Bike> nooodl: Much better.
19:46:41 <nooodl> WOw imagine lambdabot being in hexham
19:47:05 <Bike> elliott: uh, yes?
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19:47:19 <elliott> Bike: yes but it could "construct the value" and then error out if it doesn't see a }
19:47:37 <Bike> you can't just allow parsing unterminated expressions you could kill people
19:47:54 <elliott> would you like me to add infinite }s to the end
19:48:15 <nooodl> (i've already done that!!! ☕)
19:48:18 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting ++ ")}" in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:48:33 <Bike> that's terrible :(
19:50:39 <elliott> > reduction (2*x + 0 + 0*y / g z)
19:50:53 <Bike> that supposed to simplify the expression?
19:51:56 <elliott> looks like it's not very good at it
19:51:57 <Bike> it's quite effective
19:52:04 <Taneb> I've had a Tumblr account for a whole year
19:52:16 <elliott> Bike: anyway, you've got me thinking now
19:52:18 <Bike> > reduction (3 + 4 + x)
19:52:21 <Bike> elliott: sorry
19:52:30 <Bike> ok so it folds constants but doesn't eliminate identities
19:52:30 <elliott> Bike: this thing could turn your expressions into arbitrary trees and then do arbitrary things with them using maxima!
19:52:33 <elliott> you could even do derivatives
19:52:43 <Bike> automatic differentiation is pretty baller
19:52:51 <elliott> it's symbolic differentiation
19:52:57 <Bike> that's some Weak Shit son
19:53:52 <elliott> "Maxima's ability to solve equations is limited, but progress is being made in this area."
19:53:56 <elliott> maybe it should shell out to mathematics
19:55:21 <Bike> i'm imagining them citing richardson's theorem and just saying why bother
19:56:55 <elliott> does anyone know any good free as in farts CAS type things
19:57:48 <Bike> is octave good?
19:58:02 <Bike> oh it's more numerical than CASy huh
19:58:03 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
19:58:29 <Bike> oh, axiom is suppose dto be good i think?
19:59:02 <Bike> also it's strongly typed or whatever "good for haskell"
20:01:16 <elliott> i've read some of its manual
20:01:29 <elliott> they started it in like the 70s and it's entirely written with knuth-style literate programming
20:01:41 <elliott> it's like it exists outside of time
20:01:44 <Bike> well what are your options here
20:01:53 <Bike> knuth weirdness or well have you seen maxima's source
20:02:08 <elliott> btw i am speaking positively of axiom here
20:02:24 <Bike> hard to tell with you
20:08:01 <fizzie> Octave is like the hippie MATLAB.
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20:15:59 <lambdabot> class (Fractional a) => Floating a where
20:16:00 <lambdabot> exp, log, sqrt, sin, cos, tan :: a -> a
20:16:00 <lambdabot> asin, acos, atan, sinh, cosh, tanh, asinh, acosh, atanh :: a -> a
20:16:07 <lambdabot> class (Eq a, Show a) => Num a where
20:17:31 <lambdabot> class (Num a) => Fractional a where
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20:20:17 <lambdabot> class Functor f => Applicative f where
20:20:32 <Taneb> Is this a proper @src?
20:20:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
20:20:47 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
20:21:03 <Taneb> > F.foldMap (:[]) "hello"
20:24:51 <elliott> enhancements have to wait for me to implement this hack for Bike
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20:36:29 <oerjan> jeg er ikke til stede for tiden. vennligst legg igjen beskjed etter pipetonen.
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21:15:23 <kmc> http://toys.usvsth3m.com/edballs/
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21:16:31 <Bike> was that sound used in some windows 98 game
21:17:18 <elliott> Bike: itw as one of the startup ones i think
21:17:27 <kmc> Bike: i think so yes
21:22:31 <oerjan> 04:44:31: <Sgeo_> I don't think anyone wants a deadfish impl. in a proprietary language <-- make it a top secret language and we're talking
21:23:16 <Bike> anyway my rank was Ed Balls so i think that's a success
21:24:11 <Bike> kmc: lol at that haskell thing btw
21:25:02 <oerjan> <shachaf> U+2F31D COMBINING BRITISH ACCENT <-- fascinating old chap
21:25:10 <Bike> elliott's a freak man
21:26:03 <elliott> also you can omit the caps
21:26:14 <Bike> elliott pro ballsing
21:26:30 <shachaf> also you can press and then ^V
21:26:52 <nooodl> hit e + d + space all together
21:26:58 <Bike> he tweeted "Ed Balls" once
21:27:07 <nooodl> then type "balls" really quickly
21:27:09 <Bike> this became a joke in traditional internet fashion
21:27:25 <shachaf> that's not a very good joke
21:27:30 <shachaf> in traditional internet fashion
21:27:35 <Fiora> that reminds me of the founder of Dick's Sporting Goods
21:28:17 <shachaf> that reminds me of the person who runs lambdabot
21:28:28 <shachaf> ok no that's mean i'll stop
21:28:29 <Bike> Elliott Dickface
21:28:31 <kmc> which haskell thing Bike
21:28:38 <Bike> the nodejs thing
21:28:41 <Taneb> Fiora, he was Minister for Education under Gordon Brown's government and is now I think Shadow Chancellor, a position a lot less awesome or evil than it sounds
21:28:44 <kmc> Ed Balls isn't just an MP, he's the /SHADOW CHANCELLOR/
21:28:57 <Fiora> Shadow Chancellor sounds like a position in some dark cult XD
21:29:00 <Bike> i'm sorry for disrespecting the balls, ed balls
21:29:08 <Fiora> The... the shadow chancellor wishes to speak with you, my liege.
21:29:11 <Bike> the shadow chancellor isthe opposition party's chancellor right
21:29:17 <kmc> much cooler title than the actual position deserves
21:29:25 <kmc> his job is to complain about whatever the real chancellor is doing
21:29:39 <kmc> chancellor being the person in charge of money
21:30:11 <Fiora> "shadow chancellor" sounds like a position sauron would hold
21:30:41 <Bike> isn't it like, the position he /did/ hold
21:30:55 <nooodl> hi Koen_ a while ago i was wondering where are the glottal stops in the pronunciation of "d'A Z"
21:31:03 <Bike> or was that saruman guess what books i haven't read
21:31:27 <Koen_> I'd say before every syllable nooodl
21:32:10 <Koen_> though I guess no one would notice if you didn't stop before the first A
21:32:50 <Bike> deäáz of our lives
21:32:51 <Koen_> yeah that's a little bit weird
21:35:04 <Koen_> now I'm starting to think you're breton olsner
21:35:16 <olsner> btw I'm considering calling my OS thingy ꙮS
21:35:39 <FreeFull> olsner: But then you'll have to add UTF-8 support
21:35:53 <Koen_> please tell me the little square I can't read isn't the super-seven-eye symbol
21:35:53 <olsner> nah, I just have to invent an encoding of my own
21:36:01 <ion> or just Unicode support
21:36:31 <kmc> the most rare and exotic glyph variant of Cyrillic letter O
21:36:47 <Koen_> see, I don't need to have any kind of support to know the name of your os
21:36:57 <shachaf> kmc: itym Cyrillic letter О
21:37:22 <Bike> the "kmc encoding": just assume all the squares are eyes, staring
21:37:32 <olsner> kmc: I sort of want a citation for that, detailing the rarity and exoticism of cyrillic glyph variants
21:37:36 <ion> shachaf: That’s redundant.
21:37:39 <kmc> olsner: me too
21:37:44 <Koen_> "how would you like your Cyrillic O?" "very rare, please"
21:37:51 <kmc> you could look through all of http://old.stsl.ru/manuscripts/
21:37:52 <ion> shachaf: Also, that’s what kmc said, isn’t it?
21:38:02 <Bike> i suppose at some point you'd run into the glagolithic transition
21:38:14 <FreeFull> I think you should call your OS ˿ѿď瑿컿
21:38:29 <ion> Oh, sorry. I failed at copying from kmc’s line and still had your О in the clipboard.
21:38:38 <Bike> is the name of the unicode character "Cyrillic letter O" or ""Cyrillic letter О"
21:38:43 <Bike> this is seriously going to bother me
21:38:45 <kmc> the former
21:38:49 <kmc> Unicode character names are ASCII
21:38:56 <kmc> \rainbow{bootstrapping}
21:39:07 <kmc> i liked the proposal that they should be allowed to use any character that comes before that character
21:39:08 <shachaf> I prefer to think of them as "restricted Unicode".
21:39:11 <ion> There’s \rainbow{}?
21:39:19 <kmc> ion: it's a convention from another channel
21:39:32 <kmc> i think there is an irssi plugin that actually produces rainbows
21:39:36 <kmc> but people got annoyed at them
21:39:37 <shachaf> That proposal is problematic because it gives a preference to lower codepoints.
21:39:48 <kmc> FreeFull: what's that, most of the letters are missing in my fonts :/
21:39:50 <FreeFull> I don't know about a plugin, but I have a toilet alias for it
21:39:59 <ion> They should be allowed to use any character that cames after that character.
21:40:01 <kmc> toilet alias
21:40:26 <fizzie> ^rainbow I herd there's also a bot
21:40:27 <fungot> I herd there's also a bot
21:40:37 <FreeFull> http://caca.zoy.org/wiki/toilet
21:40:57 <FreeFull> toilet is a figlet replacement
21:41:02 <Bike> ^rainbow boostrapping
21:41:23 <olsner> I think they should be able to use any character that doesn't produce loops in the dependency graph, the ordering of characters should not be relevant to their description
21:41:28 <fizzie> "Rainbow bootstrapping" is a fancy name for rain.
21:41:55 <FreeFull> I think my rainbow looks better than yours
21:42:03 <olsner> (err, does unicode describe "characters" or some other term?)
21:42:32 <fizzie> FreeFull: ^rainbow rainbow isn't designed, though, it's just consecutive colors for ease of implementation.
21:42:47 <Bike> olsner: imo allow fixpoints!!!
21:43:18 <fizzie> olsner: Code points are what many of the lists are made of, at least.
21:43:25 <olsner> Bike: yes, that was my original thought actually, anything that brings the unicode standard to a fix point should be ok
21:43:46 <kmc> you can download the Unicode Character Database so I guess they are 'characters'
21:43:58 <fizzie> "Character" in Unicode means: "(1) The smallest component of written language that has semantic value; refers to the abstract meaning and/or shape, rather than a specific shape (see also glyph), though in code tables some form of visual representation is essential for the reader’s understanding. (2) Synonym for abstract character. (3) The basic unit of encoding for the Unicode character ...
21:44:04 <fizzie> ... encoding. (4) The English name for the ideographic written elements of Chinese origin. [See ideograph (2).]"
21:44:17 <Bike> uhhhh characters have semantics now?
21:44:23 <kmc> a lot of those 'characters' are not part of written language though
21:44:28 <fizzie> The character database is presumably using sense (3).
21:44:50 <olsner> would be nice if unicode (or something like "does the unicode character descriptions reach a fixed point") was undecidable
21:44:56 <kmc> Bike: they can be assigned semantics... e.g. mathematical bold and italic are different characters because maths papers define them to mean different things, because fuck maths
21:45:11 <fizzie> The difference from code point seems to be that all numbers from 0 to 0x10ffff are code points, but not of them are assigned to characters.
21:45:54 <Bike> kmc: but in natural language they barely even define phonemics, i mean
21:46:14 <kmc> fizzie: are the values corresponding to UTF-16 surrogate pair code units considered to be code points in Unicode?
21:46:38 <fizzie> kmc: Apparently. ("Code Point. (1) Any value in the Unicode codespace; that is, the range of integers from 0 to 10FFFF16. (See definition D10 in Section 3.4, Characters and Encoding.)")
21:46:55 <fizzie> (That 16 is a subscript.)
21:47:38 <fizzie> There are also seven fundamental classes of code points -- Graphic, Format, Control, Private-Use, Surrogate, Noncharacter, Reserved.
21:50:08 <elliott> @hoogle Map k a -> k -> Bool
21:50:09 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy member :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool
21:50:10 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Strict member :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool
21:50:10 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy notMember :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool
21:50:28 <Bike> what's notMember for exactly
21:50:38 <shachaf> checking if a key isn't a member hth
21:51:13 <kmc> so you can write «x `notMember` y» instead of «not (x `member` y)» and it's a little bit nicer I guess
21:51:44 <kmc> or better yet «map (`notMember` y)» vs «map (not . (`member` y))»
21:51:59 <olsner> shachaf: always so hthelpful
21:53:12 <elliott> @hoogle (k -> k') -> Map k a -> Map k' a
21:53:12 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy mapKeysMonotonic :: (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a
21:53:12 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Strict mapKeysMonotonic :: (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a
21:53:12 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy mapKeys :: Ord k2 => (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a
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21:59:30 <olsner> FreeFull: I'm not a function, hth
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22:49:32 <shachaf> kmc: once upon a time i installed a shareware program whose purpose was to reverse strings
22:49:41 <shachaf> i think it was reasonably popular
22:50:10 <shachaf> the good old days of rtl text
22:50:41 <shachaf> (The program would reverse text as you copy it into the clipboard or something like that.)
22:51:32 <myname> sounds extremely useful if you copy links
22:52:05 <shachaf> (Which shows up correctly for me because my terminal doesn't handle RTL text.)
22:52:21 <olsner> is that fchsh or shchf?
22:54:13 <Bike> the people of israel have decided: vowels are for fucking wusses
22:55:02 <olsner> like many non-english languages they have learned to encode information in diacritics
22:56:31 <shachaf> (That ׁ indicates that the ש is a sh and not a s. hth)
22:56:42 <olsner> I wonder which direction a) that was rendered, b) should've been rendered, or c) should be read
22:57:10 <oerjan> are there supposed to be circles with the vowel signs or is my terminal broken for them
22:57:10 <olsner> the sh appaeared at the end of the line, so I'm guessing backwards
22:57:50 <shachaf> olsner: The three letters are:
22:57:51 <oerjan> (almost certainly broken since the circles make the consonants even harder to see
22:58:04 <Bike> nice capture, oerjan
22:58:05 <shachaf> They should be written from right to left.
22:58:14 * lambdabot orders her trained monkeys to punch oerjan
22:58:33 <oerjan> i got me some hebrew letters!
22:58:52 <olsner> shachaf: is that from right to wrong or from wrong to right?
22:59:19 <shachaf> (We're talking about coasts of the US now.)
22:59:56 <kmc> a wise man once said the west is the best
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23:04:13 <olsner> fungot: where is the west and the best? are they in fact the same?
23:04:13 <fungot> olsner: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale?
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23:27:48 <oerjan> hm moving the new laptop to the left end of the table made eating pizza too complicated
23:29:26 <Bike> we all have pizza problems, man. we all do
23:31:55 <oerjan> because i use my right hand on the touchpad, i have to eat pizza with the left, but now there was nowhere to put it. (yes, i already have moved the laptop out of the way)
23:35:12 <oerjan> also the reason i moved the laptop to the left is because the cord is shorter than the old one, and plugs in on the left, so it's uncomfortable to have it where the old one was when plugged in.
23:36:03 <oerjan> also oerjan world problems (including the irony) seems to be me in a nutshell.
23:36:28 <Sgeo_> I could easily create something like monad syntax in Rebol... but I think it would be inefficient
23:36:56 <Sgeo_> A do notation equivalent
23:37:15 <Bike> rules of programming 1) write in Haskell 2) write beautiful code, without regard to efficiency 3) optomize ONLY as needed
23:37:39 <Sgeo_> The design I'm thinking of would put the do notation processing inside the function passed to bind...
23:37:46 <Sgeo_> Each time bind is used
23:39:11 <oerjan> well don't do that then hth
23:41:41 <Sgeo_> But it's the easiest thing to di
23:41:59 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:42:01 <Sgeo_> And not sure how else to do it, without making the syntax more unreboly than it currently is
23:42:37 <Bike> FreeFull: now i'm reading it as "hadith"
23:44:14 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:45:16 <Bike> oerjan: that hardly seems very functional!
23:45:41 <FreeFull> > concatMap (const "hth ") [1..]
23:45:42 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:46:00 <oerjan> Bike: but it's very cyclic!
23:46:19 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:46:33 <Bike> oerjan: you could stand to learn a thing or two from freefull here.
23:46:51 <Sgeo_> Slightly annoying to specify which locals you want to use at the beginning of the function. I mean, you don't _have_ to, but I gather it's the most convenient thing to do
23:46:59 <oerjan> that's not even constant memory!
23:47:09 <lambdabot> ["hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth...
23:47:31 <FreeFull> > const "hth " <$> [1..] >>= id
23:47:31 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:47:44 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:48:01 <FreeFull> How will anyone know what that code does
23:48:11 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:48:16 <Koen_> can you do it without the explicit space? that is with "hth" instead of "hth "
23:49:05 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:49:07 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f b
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23:53:21 <Bike> > fix \x -> 2 + sqrt x
23:53:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `\'
23:53:30 <Bike> > fix (\x -> 2 + sqrt x)
23:53:41 <Bike> i just can't win ;_;
23:54:27 <Bike> it's just not the same man
23:56:16 <FreeFull> I do believe you can implement iterate in terms of fix
23:56:52 <Sgeo_> If this works I will gibber insanely
23:57:03 <Sgeo_> (If it doesn't work I will also gibber insanely)
23:59:15 <FreeFull> > let iterate' f a = fix (\x -> f a : map f x) in iterate' (+3) 0
23:59:16 <lambdabot> [3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39,42,45,48,51,54,57,60,63,66,69,72,75,78...
23:59:43 <FreeFull> > let iterate' f a = fix (\x -> a : map f x) in iterate' (+3) 0
23:59:43 <lambdabot> [0,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39,42,45,48,51,54,57,60,63,66,69,72,75,...
23:59:50 <Sgeo_> ma: do/next next assigns 'next-assigns
23:59:59 <Sgeo_> This is not really the most readable code I have ever written
00:02:04 <FreeFull> > fix (\x y z -> y : map z x) 1 (\x -> 2 + sqrt x)
00:02:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
00:03:49 <FreeFull> > fix (\x y z -> y : map z (x y z)) 1 (\x -> 2 + sqrt x)
00:03:50 <lambdabot> [1.0,3.0,3.732050807568877,3.9318516525781364,3.982889722747621,3.995717846...
00:04:25 <Bike> It's converging to a different number...
00:04:32 <kmc> constants are changing
00:04:51 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 2 + sqrt x) 1
00:04:52 <lambdabot> [1.0,3.0,3.732050807568877,3.9318516525781364,3.982889722747621,3.995717846...
00:04:56 <Bike> (four does not equal the square root of six)
00:05:03 <Sgeo_> >> do-monad identity-m [a: 5 b: 6] [a + b]
00:05:17 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 2 + sqrt x) 2.44
00:05:18 <lambdabot> [2.44,3.5620499351813306,3.887339379968884,3.9716336830072883,3.99289580334...
00:05:23 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 2 + sqrt x) 5
00:05:24 <lambdabot> [5.0,4.23606797749979,4.058171027271492,4.014490264873844,4.0036192914009,4...
00:05:33 <FreeFull> Sgeo_: Why wouldn't it converge to 4?
00:05:47 <Bike> > iterate (\x -> sqrt (x + 2)) -- maybe i fucked up.
00:05:56 <Sgeo_> FreeFull, um, why are you asking me?
00:06:00 <Bike> > iterate (\x -> sqrt (x + 2)) 2
00:06:00 <lambdabot> [2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2....
00:06:02 <Bike> typo, probably
00:06:06 <Bike> > iterate (\x -> sqrt (x + 2)) 5
00:06:07 <lambdabot> [5.0,2.6457513110645907,2.1554004989942337,2.0384799481462244,2.00959696161...
00:06:31 <Bike> yeah, my mistake.
00:06:46 <Bike> like usual *sobs all over Sgeo_*
00:07:04 <lambdabot> [0.0,2.449489742783178,2.449489742783178,2.449489742783178,2.44948974278317...
00:09:26 <oerjan> i see those iBooter spammers have got annoying again...
00:10:54 <lambdabot> [1.0,0.0,-Infinity,6.0,5.0,4.8,4.75,4.7368421052631575,4.733333333333333,4....
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00:11:03 <FreeFull> I have no idea what that converges to
00:11:32 <oerjan> i wonder if we dodged a bullet there...
00:11:44 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100
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00:12:05 <FreeFull> > (iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100)^2
00:12:15 <FreeFull> I have no idea what the significance of that number is
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00:12:46 <Bike_> 71/15, there we go. i'm good at math
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00:13:05 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 1000
00:13:09 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 10000
00:13:12 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100000
00:13:19 <Bike> or some nasty ass fraction
00:13:29 <Sgeo_> >> do-monad list-m [a: [1 2 3] b: [4 5 6]] [a + b]
00:13:30 <Sgeo_> == [5 6 7 6 7 8 7 8 9]
00:13:31 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100000 :: CReal
00:13:34 <FreeFull> Well, google does give results for the number
00:13:37 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 10000 :: CReal
00:13:45 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 1000 :: CReal
00:13:53 <Bike> x = 6 - 6/x, x² = 6x - 6, x² - 6x + 6 = 0, bla bla whatever.
00:14:10 <Bike> basically yeah
00:14:13 <kmc> harsh but fair
00:14:29 <Bike> whaddya mean "probably"
00:14:59 <FreeFull> Probably that's why there are google results for it
00:15:02 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/8035336
00:15:08 <Sgeo_> Probably not the best Rebol code in existence
00:15:24 <elliott> has anyone else started caring about rebol yet
00:15:32 <Bike> i think kmc did once maybe
00:15:57 <Sgeo_> I should make that :ma not ma
00:15:59 <elliott> also what on earth does it need return for
00:17:39 <oerjan> 15:48:53: <fizzie> You should configure a key combination in your Emacs to access it.
00:17:43 <oerjan> 15:49:10: <fizzie> The key combination should be prominently listed on top of the cheat sheet, since you'll be needing it often.
00:17:53 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:18:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Applicative.Applicative f0)
00:19:16 <Bike> > (\a b c -> ((negate b) + sqrt(b**2 - 4*a*c)) / 2*a) 1 -6 6
00:19:22 <Bike> yeah ok whatever.
00:19:26 <Sgeo_> Wonder how badly the internals of that thing can be messed up
00:21:04 <Bike> are you serious
00:21:30 <Bike> haskell more like i have no idea what's happeningskell
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00:21:51 <Bike> > (*) 1 -6 -- is it some parse weirdness
00:21:52 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
00:22:00 <Bike> > (*) 1 (negate 6)
00:22:12 <Bike> > (\a b c -> ((negate b) + sqrt(b**2 - 4*a*c)) / 2*a) 1 (negate 6) 6
00:22:18 <Bike> there. i have scienced
00:22:32 <Bike> i am now at the level of a seventh grader algebraist
00:25:17 <FreeFull> Bike: Now do differentation or integration
00:25:29 <Bike> ugh i already had to do that today
00:25:35 <Bike> Dsin = cos do i win
00:26:22 <FreeFull> No, you have to write it in lisp
00:26:43 <Bike> (D-DD)sin = cos + sin bam
00:27:29 <oerjan> <elliott> does anyone know why these would differ <-- extended defaulting still requires a "standard" class to be involved in the mess. typeable isn't one, but show is.
00:27:34 <shachaf> it isn't just (R -> R) -> (R -> R)
00:27:35 <Bike> It's a linear operator.
00:27:43 <Bike> So... yeah, that works.
00:27:44 <FreeFull> shachaf: Something like Expr a -> Expr a
00:28:01 <shachaf> no, that doesn't work because it could be e.g. (C -> C) -> C -> C
00:28:24 <shachaf> so D : Something a => (a -> a) -> a -> a
00:28:27 <kmc> why do i have a file named crap.sh
00:28:29 <shachaf> is (R -> R) an instance of Something?
00:28:35 <kmc> oh it's a 900 character long qemu-kvm command line
00:28:43 <shachaf> ok are functions from R to R a field
00:29:09 <Bike> Ah, don't think so, square integrable ones are though? Maybe? I'm shit at analysis
00:29:25 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
00:29:26 <shachaf> Bike: look i just want the derivative of taking derivatives
00:29:34 <shachaf> don't make this more difficult than it needs to be hth
00:30:04 <kmc> > undefined :: () -> IO ()
00:30:57 <Bike> haha wikipedia has a whole article on generalizing differentiation, sweet
00:31:24 <Bike> shachaf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_derivative
00:31:51 <Bike> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_derivative
00:31:58 <shachaf> btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_(abstract_algebra)
00:32:07 <elliott> shachaf: why don't you just use https everywhere or w/e
00:32:19 <shachaf> elliott: why doesn't Bike hth
00:32:25 <Bike> i told you it was a linear map! but nooooo
00:32:40 <Bike> anyway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalizations_of_the_derivative and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalizations_of_the_derivative
00:33:29 <Bike> I wonder if this is related to fractional calculus.
00:33:53 <shachaf> hey p-adic analysis is a thing
00:34:11 <elliott> joke: do you relate type-theoretic equality to the paths of homotopy theory, because you're pretty HoTT
00:34:22 <elliott> thank you i'll be here all week
00:34:28 <Bike> jesus fuck dude
00:35:16 <elliott> update: still laughing at my own joke
00:35:30 <Bike> update: still laughing in horror at elliott's joke
00:35:36 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
00:36:34 <lambdabot> ["mnoqy","nmoqy","onmqy","nomqy","omnqy","monqy","qonmy","oqnmy","onqmy","q...
00:36:43 <shachaf> imo we should add all of those to smlist.
00:36:44 <mnoqy> i bet that gopher relates type-theoretic equality to the paths of homotopy theory
00:36:58 <Bike> thanks be to lambdabot's new master, elliott
00:37:43 <elliott> update: laughing at my own joke for the second time
00:37:51 <oerjan> 19:03:07: <elliott> oerjan: hi
00:37:51 <oerjan> 19:08:02: <shachaf> hellørjan
00:37:52 <Bike> update: get a life!!!
00:38:08 <Bike> get oerjan's life i bet he's not using it!!
00:38:19 <elliott> how about i get your life (i'm hitting on you again)
00:38:39 <Bike> my life mostly involves feeling bad about social programs sorry
00:38:43 <Bike> "not very high-life"
00:38:59 <shachaf> hang on are we playing hit on the monqy
00:39:04 <elliott> my life mostly involves not participating in any social programs, hth
00:39:05 <shachaf> i keep seeing that flash ad
00:39:35 <shachaf> Bike: maybe you should move to los angeles like Fiora
00:39:42 <shachaf> then you can feel bad about socal programs
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00:40:14 <Bike> i think fiora actually lives in para-LA
00:40:22 <kmc> i love highlife the CA
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00:40:29 <Bike> highlife the CA is pretty cool
00:40:31 <Sgeo_> kmc, look at my Rebol code? >.>
00:40:34 <Bike> night and day is my favorite though
00:40:41 <shachaf> is that like a parala universe
00:40:43 <oerjan> i am starting to think win8 isn't very good at keeping connections open
00:40:57 <shachaf> elliott: You should @admin + me.
00:40:57 <elliott> los angeles is in california (CA)
00:41:10 <Fiora> what's a para-LA...
00:41:23 <kmc> para-LA, ortho-LA, meta-LA
00:41:33 <shachaf> I should make a bot that fixes words like "cooperate" to add diæreses.
00:42:11 <kmc> finally i will stop pronouncing it as "coin cidence"
00:42:58 <shachaf> the cow incidence in los angeles is unusually high today......
00:43:03 <kmc> is that so
00:43:10 <kmc> but the cow palace is in SF
00:43:58 <shachaf> kmc: is "overr̈eaction" an overr̈eaction
00:44:24 <shachaf> hey do y'all remember the secret cow level
00:44:46 <shachaf> BTW a fantasy tower defense card game I made called Mage Tower is coming out on June 28th, if you're into that stuff NERD
00:44:52 <shachaf> Bike is JohnnySmash???????
00:45:19 <Bike> am i "the person who calls people nerds"
00:45:22 <shachaf> wow that ∶ was disappointing
00:45:35 <shachaf> Bike: yes and it's kind of rude
00:45:46 <Bike> nerds are kind of rude
00:46:11 <Fiora> bike you're a nerd :<
00:46:15 <shachaf> calling people names considered harmful
00:46:39 <elliott> i agree w/ Fiora and disagree w/ Bike (general statement)
00:46:39 <Bike> Fiora: common misconception, ,i'm actually two nerds wearing a trenchcoat (it has like /nine/ pocket protectors)
00:46:46 <shachaf> also: nouns considered harmfulest, and adjectives considered harmfuler
00:46:53 <shachaf> and verbs considered the least harmful
00:47:00 <shachaf> this is my philosophy on saying things about people
00:47:09 <oerjan> Bike: is that enough protectors for two nerds
00:47:12 <Bike> why you gotta nerd so hard, shachaf
00:47:14 <Fiora> Bike: are those two very small nerds?
00:47:28 <Bike> Fiora: no i'm like eleven feet tall total
00:47:39 <elliott> turns out Fiora is actually half of a nerd wearing a quarter of a trenchcoat
00:47:40 <Fiora> bike is actually a Blame character
00:48:04 <Fiora> for one I'm not wearing a trenchcoat
00:48:12 <Bike> hey kid want some of this *opens trenchcoat* *dozens of trenchcoats fall to the ground*
00:48:32 <elliott> Bike: i'm actually trenchcoats all the way down
00:48:44 <Bike> > fix trenchcoat
00:48:56 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_coats_in_popular_culture
00:49:34 <Fiora> 82 degrees is a little warm for that kind of clothing, I think
00:49:43 <lambdabot> http://www.goodcooking.com/conversions/temp.htm
00:49:43 <lambdabot> Title: Fahrenheit to Celsius Conversions
00:49:58 <shachaf> that's a little hot for just about any kind of clothing
00:50:07 <Fiora> though, it's only 24 C right now and I'm inside and it's probably 20 here
00:50:44 <Fiora> shachaf: later in the summer it can get up to 36-39C sometimes
00:50:47 <Fiora> those are days I go to work early
00:50:50 <Fiora> and come home late
00:51:10 <kmc> you're in LA area with no air conditioning?? condolences
00:51:17 <Fiora> no way of course we have AC
00:51:30 <Fiora> but I walk to/from work
00:51:41 <Fiora> so I can't, like, /totally/ pretend the weather doesn't exist
00:51:42 <kmc> i lived on the top floor of a dorm with no AC, in a hall known as "Hell" for reasons which should be obvious
00:51:43 <shachaf> Fiora: have you considered that your emplyer is using a weather control machine to make you work long hours
00:52:09 <Fiora> my first year I had to have a window unit, it worked okay though
00:52:19 <Fiora> though, the first week of school, it reached ~43 C
00:52:25 <Fiora> which was like unusual even for here
00:52:34 <kmc> yes that is absurd
00:52:37 <elliott> can humans even survive at those temperatures
00:52:37 <Fiora> and I remember all the faculty were like "I'm sorry frosh ;_; it is not normally like this"
00:52:42 <shachaf> hmm the record high temperature recorded in tel aviv was in may
00:52:45 <elliott> pretty sure if it ever reached 35 C i would become a liquid
00:52:48 <kmc> one time we gave all the prefrosh food poisoning!
00:52:54 <kmc> at prefrosh weekend
00:53:01 <kmc> the yield rate was unusually low that year
00:53:01 <Fiora> it never reached 43C the rest of my 4 years there, I think
00:53:17 <Fiora> it was literally just for the first week frosh were there. it was like, even the weather hates frosh
00:53:24 <shachaf> elliott: Cats actually do turn liquid around that temperature.
00:53:34 <shachaf> I have witnessed cats dripping off bookshelves and such.
00:53:39 <kmc> shachaf: making physics fun
00:53:42 <Fiora> shachaf: http://24.media.tumblr.com/af3987d0a104ea6ba65d6c1a04b5919d/tumblr_mgsrybJ49R1r2dft2o1_500.jpg
00:54:13 <shachaf> Their melting point is somewhere above room temperature.
00:54:46 <Fiora> I am seriously bad at heat though, I can't stand anything over um like 26C
00:54:54 <shachaf> Fiora: why are you in los angeles
00:55:00 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:55:11 <Fiora> I'm near the coast! it's normally really cool here actually
00:55:21 <Fiora> like it's usually no more than like 20-25C most of the year, even the summer
00:55:24 <shachaf> maybe move to san francisco
00:55:29 <Fiora> this is kind of where I got a job >_<
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01:00:18 <shachaf> Fiora: imo get a job in san francisco
01:00:31 -!- Bike has joined.
01:00:31 <shachaf> all the cool people like kmc are doing it
01:01:52 <Fiora> I... I don't think that's so easy...
01:02:19 <kmc> you know lots of things
01:02:22 <kmc> 'hella things' as they say in sf
01:02:31 <kmc> but, maybe you like your current job! that is fine too
01:02:54 <Fiora> I have like no web programming skills, I'm terribly anxious at interviews, and I'm not really a great programmer or anything compared to like the silicon valley people
01:03:00 <elliott> i hate all my current jobs. i also love all my current jobs
01:03:15 <elliott> also, all of my current jobs are the same job, but no two of them are the smae.
01:03:20 <Fiora> and I don't think I could keep to a startup schedule
01:03:25 <Bike> you shouldn't abuse quantification motherfucker
01:03:47 <elliott> also, for all of my current jobs, 2 + 2 = 5
01:03:54 <Bike> once i develop my ant army i'll just give you a pension fiora
01:04:06 <kmc> most of the silicon valley people are not very good programmers
01:04:09 <shachaf> the joke is that elliott has no current jobs
01:04:15 <elliott> thank you shachaf, that was indeed the joke
01:04:16 <kmc> certainly most of them couldn't write optimized SSE assembly code like woah
01:04:29 <shachaf> not all companies in sf/sv are startups
01:04:31 <Bike> Fiora: yeah, i'm gonna conquer the caucasus.
01:04:31 <elliott> i would say web programming skills are generally a downside to finding a non-awful programming job
01:04:41 <elliott> this has applied to all the programming jobs i have had (hint: the joke is that this set is also empty)
01:04:54 <kmc> they plug together existing open source projects in boring ways to make billion dollar products that have little/no interesting tech
01:04:56 <Bike> you're a leech elliott a leach!
01:04:58 <Fiora> I'm also really bad at dealing with people in-person and I don't really feel like I'd fit in (at least definitely not better than now...)
01:05:08 <kmc> so yes stay away from web startups, but don't feel inferior to them
01:05:18 <Fiora> also geez what kind of cool startup wants some person with ancient skills like that :p
01:05:29 <kmc> they have an awful shitty cult online of making people feel inferior to them
01:05:32 <kmc> it's the worst
01:05:33 <Bike> the computing world is scary
01:05:40 <kmc> yes ancient skills like programming for the Intel chip that came out LAST WEEK >_<
01:05:50 <Bike> that's like four years in intel time
01:06:21 <kmc> it's true that companies with interesting tech are harder to find than web startups
01:06:28 <Fiora> but nobody really cares about assembly stuff anymore... like they're all talking about html and css and rails and go and rust and racket and
01:06:35 <kmc> you can swing a dead cat and find a web startup
01:06:35 <Fiora> and like a million other things I know nothing about
01:06:45 <shachaf> Fiora: do you not deal with people in person now
01:07:06 <Fiora> I know one of the few remaining places that has assembly up the wazoo is game development (?) but oh gosh no that industry no no no no no
01:07:09 <Bike> i can think of a cool startup. that's kind of weird.
01:07:13 <Bike> (it's not a web startup)
01:07:18 <shachaf> no don't work in game development
01:07:19 <Fiora> shachaf: I kind of avoid it as much as possible
01:07:28 <shachaf> Fiora: what is your job anyway
01:07:31 <shachaf> was that one of the secret things
01:07:39 <Bike> her job is avoiding talking about her job
01:07:40 <Fiora> I work at a software company in orange county
01:07:47 <Bike> pretty well paying, i hear
01:08:15 <Fiora> it's not that amazing really I just have nothing to spend the money on
01:08:18 <elliott> low-level assembly optimisation is till really important, it's just not fashionable. but also half the fashionable things are awful anyway, so fashionability doesn't really matter
01:08:31 <Fiora> and geez I don't only do that. like I program C too and I struggle horribly at C++
01:08:33 <kmc> imo it's better to have an obscure skill than a common, fashionable one
01:08:38 <shachaf> Fiora: I did some SSE optimization at a startup in SV once!
01:08:48 <shachaf> And I didn't even know anything about it before I started.
01:08:50 <kmc> (unless it is really super obscure)
01:08:54 <FreeFull> Most things don't need low-level optimisation
01:09:05 <elliott> i can always rely on FreeFull for the tautologies
01:09:05 <shachaf> (I still don't know much about it. But I was reasonably successful in the thing I was doing!)
01:09:12 <kmc> right, and most programmers can't do low-level optimisation, which means that the ones who can will get paid a lot
01:09:26 <Bike> and that's why fiora has enough money to finance her rap career
01:09:46 <Fiora> I... really maybe it's easier if you can like, "market your skills" or something?
01:09:56 <elliott> Fiora: i mean your low-level skills are probably roughly a billion times more employable than my functional programming skills :V
01:10:02 <shachaf> Isn't that supposed to finance itself?
01:10:04 <elliott> there are like 10 haskell jobs
01:10:15 <shachaf> more like 10.............hundred
01:10:36 <Fiora> but as bike knows from the other day that (combined with well, the vast gap in competence), that kind of thing is the difference between me and someone like 0xabad1dea
01:11:17 <shachaf> because i came up with that hexadecimal string all on my own and then i looked it up and it was someone's username
01:11:30 <Fiora> (context: a week or few ago I finally stumbled upon her page and was like /oh my gosh there is someone else who tries to do the whole "let's combine girliness and total assembly geekery" thing/
01:11:47 <Fiora> and then I quickly discovered "oh my gosh I am so completely, vastly, categorically inferior to this person")
01:12:01 <shachaf> Fiora: you say that about everybody
01:12:09 <shachaf> so imo don't listen to yourself hth
01:12:10 <kmc> itt: fuck impostor syndrome
01:12:12 <Koen_> and then you realized it was actually a page you wrote
01:12:40 <Bike> impostor syndrome ;_;
01:12:41 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: saddest personal realisation from the whole prism affair: libertarians have soured me to anti-authoritarianism
01:12:41 <kmc> not to be like "this is you" but i read this article today https://medium.com/tech-talk/bdae04e46ec5
01:12:47 <Fiora> it's kind of hard to not listen to yourself
01:13:01 <Bike> yeah, you get used to it though
01:13:06 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :( i may have the same realization just now
01:13:13 <Bike> especially if you get a psychiatrist or whatever (NOT RELEVANT TO FIORA WARNING)
01:13:39 <Bike> and yeah i had that same feeling about libertarians, luckily i'm annoyed at maoists now instead
01:13:40 <kmc> I guess it is really important to distinguish "against current authorities" from "against the existence of any authorities in any form"
01:13:45 <shachaf> Fiora: imo listen to Bike instead
01:14:18 <Bike> kmc's article seems pretty good
01:14:34 <Bike> "In my head I held a definition of a good programmer, and I didn’t fit it. My repertoire of keyboard shortcuts was relatively pathetic. I was not a fount of esoteric details of various programming languages." hehhhhh i know that feeling
01:14:43 <elliott> instead of listening to myself i listen to Bike
01:15:16 <elliott> kmc: i don't think that's necessarily the distinction you need to put hating libertarians in a different category
01:15:20 <kmc> Fiora: i can tell you as someone who has interviewed a lot of programmers that if I saw http://fiorasm.tumblr.com/ i would be like "we must talk to this person now"
01:15:30 <elliott> like, non-ancap anarchists aren't the same thing as libertarians
01:15:35 <Fiora> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/pQ6RWVf.png this is how I feel after glancing at her chart
01:15:49 <kmc> not just because you know SSE minutae but because you clearly can think, refine ideas, get them working, and then explain them
01:16:16 <kmc> I guess I would say that even a tiny overlap between "what you know" and "things that matter" is enough for a fulfilling career
01:16:30 <kmc> i mean obviously, nobody knows more than a tiny fraction of things
01:16:34 <kmc> thus is the modern world
01:17:07 <Fiora> I guess, it's more like, "oh yay my wonderful autistic brain has collected a vast quantity of useless information, so it looks like I ~know things~"
01:17:20 <Bike> man i have the same feeling and i'm allistic
01:17:27 <Bike> "i'm not smart, i just read a lot"
01:17:32 * pikhq follows up with Google recruiter
01:17:36 <kmc> god damn impostor syndrome
01:17:37 <Fiora> "i'm not smart, i just know a ton of useless trivia"
01:17:45 <kmc> this is one of the reasons why I hate Hacker News and kin so much
01:17:49 <Fiora> also with the imposter syndrome there's like
01:17:51 <kmc> they argue all the time about who's a Real Programmer
01:17:59 <Bike> Fiora: well do you think i'm smart
01:18:14 <elliott> kmc: the answer is i'm a real programmer and nobody else is, hope this helps
01:18:20 <elliott> also, i'm a real person and nobody else is. solipsism life
01:18:22 <Fiora> "okay, I accept that I'm good at assembly, I accept that I'm actually really good at this stuff, but I feel like I'm awful at everything outside of a super super narrow sphere, and when I try to venture out of it, I'm not completely incapable, but I feel really crappy"
01:18:26 <Fiora> *really crappy at it
01:19:03 <kmc> learning = failing
01:19:07 <kmc> repeatedly
01:19:14 <Bike> well uh, i guess i'd say there are ways to acknowledge that you're feeling something other than saying "this feeling reflects reality"
01:19:17 <kmc> it's tough
01:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, that article was a bit frustrating because i'm probably more familiar with the slightly different brand of impostor syndrome you get in maths
01:19:27 <Fiora> that's a really good article though... thanks
01:19:31 <kmc> i don't have any sage advice on how to get past the "failing repeatedly" stage of learning
01:19:49 <shachaf> kmc: fortunately failing repeatedly is a p. good way to get past it
01:19:58 <kmc> is it, though
01:20:12 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: interesting, what's the key difference do you think
01:20:21 <pikhq> The imposter syndrome thing really does suck.
01:20:29 <pikhq> Especially when combined with depression.
01:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> well it seems like in computing you're comparing yourself more to this abstract image of The Real Programmer
01:20:49 <shachaf> hey kmc did i ever mention you should read those books by keith johnstone
01:20:54 <kmc> i think so
01:21:01 <shachaf> _Impro_ and also _Impro For Storytellers_
01:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas with maths you have all these big legendary figures and are constantly comparing yourself to them
01:21:37 <kmc> we have those in programming too, although the lists of people are often hilariously weird
01:21:43 <Fiora> it's like, whenever I venture out of my little bubble, I find myself endlessly asking questions of people trying to figure out a codebase or something
01:21:48 <Fiora> and I feel like I'm contributing nearly nothing at all
01:21:55 <Fiora> while they go and do their whole thing without constantly asking questions of everyone else
01:21:56 <kmc> like on HN i saw Mark Zuckerberg and ESR in the same list as Ken Thompson and Donald Knuth
01:21:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i think in programming it's probably not as... codified? and mythic
01:21:59 <Fiora> and they just figure it out
01:22:11 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: fair
01:22:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i constantly compare myself to conor mcbride, hth
01:22:31 <kmc> also maths is probably even worse than programming as far as the "you will do your best work before the age of 30"
01:22:36 <kmc> which is scary
01:22:42 <shachaf> I,I i constantly compare myself to conor mcbride and find myself inferior
01:22:46 <elliott> the comparisons go like this: am I as good as conor mcbride yet -> haha no -> welp
01:22:50 <shachaf> (That's because Conor McBride is the best.)
01:22:57 <kmc> elliott: please express this as a flowchart
01:23:04 <elliott> shachaf: you could say the comparison is... constant
01:23:08 <elliott> because it always has the same result, see
01:23:31 <shachaf> elliott: is the joke that "constantly" means "all the time" and also "always has the same result (like a constant function)" and they're the same word
01:23:38 <shachaf> i think that might be the joke but just clarifying
01:23:38 <Fiora> " I felt saying something stupid would be representative of my gender" this -feeling-
01:23:39 <kmc> btw i too have these insecurities
01:24:08 <kmc> for me it's largely about the fact that I can make all these cute little toy demos of whatever, but I'm less sure that I can work productively on something big and important
01:24:10 <Fiora> (also when playing games: oh gosh you can't be bad at this game fiora or else you're going to uphold stereotypes!!!!! no brain shut up shut up shut up shut up oops I died)
01:24:52 <shachaf> Fiora: i'm p. bad at asking questions about things and imo asking questions should be encouraged
01:25:36 <kmc> like I'm reasonably sure that I know more technical stuff than the average web startup person but I think/worry that the average web startup person is better at Getting Shit Done and, like, shipping working code
01:25:59 <Fiora> yeah but like... I only ask them because I literally have no idea what to do next and I'm lost and don't get things
01:26:07 <Fiora> and the alternative is sitting there doing nothing until my boss asks what I'm doing
01:26:11 <elliott> kmc: half of your blog posts involve python so i can assure you you are not as uselessly perfectionist as me
01:26:17 <Fiora> also because asking questions over skype is easier than in person
01:26:19 <kmc> all your blog posts are in @
01:26:38 <elliott> kmc: i compromise to haskell on a good day
01:26:49 <shachaf> Fiora: Understanding a big codebase properly always takes time as far as I know.
01:27:22 <Fiora> yeah but like I feel like it never gets any better, and everyone else figures it out
01:28:10 <shachaf> The other half of this syndrome thing is assuming that other people have things figured out.
01:28:41 <kmc> shachaf: do you remember being a kid and thinking that adults know what they're doing
01:28:57 <shachaf> kmc: and now i'm old and i know what i'm doing!!!!!!!
01:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> did i link that terrifying ronson article that demonstrates that the cia have no idea what they're doing
01:32:20 <shachaf> imo finding out that particular people who you thought you knew what they were doing have no idea what they're doing is a p. good experience
01:33:32 <Fiora> sorry, I really shouldn't dump all this here like this anyways
01:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not like you're swamping anything very worthwhile
01:34:13 <shachaf> (it's traditional to get drunk first i think but not obligatory)
01:34:16 <Bike> "yeah let's get back to talking about brainfuck"
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01:34:50 <Bike> anyway i wanted to say: I probably have a skewed perspective on this since i'm literally mentally unsound and my thinking is quite often demonstratably out of tune with reality
01:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_ said he was making a brainfuck equivalent in @tell
01:34:53 <Bike> and that's that
01:35:13 <elliott> Bike: that is because you are a bicycle
01:35:14 <Fiora> I don't know if I'm mentally unsound, really
01:35:24 <Bike> yeah i don't mean that as pertaining to you
01:35:24 <elliott> they were not meant to function in human society
01:35:32 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, >.>
01:35:39 <kmc> a high powered mutant of some kind never intended for mass production
01:35:44 <Fiora> I just mean I've never really checked
01:35:48 <Bike> elliott: fuck you man i'll do whatever i fucking well please *runs you over w/ my tires*
01:35:51 <Fiora> though I know I'm probably an anxious autistic wreck so
01:35:51 <Sgeo_> Technically it's equivalent to a subset of BF
01:35:59 <elliott> Bike: you're not, like... a car
01:35:59 <Bike> Fiora: i didn't mean to imply you were insane sorry
01:36:02 <elliott> bicycle wheels are not scary
01:36:14 <Bike> elliott: yeah it's... not that effective... but bike power
01:36:16 <Bike> Fiora: ok cool
01:37:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan knows everything <-- * swat -----###
01:37:26 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: stop that
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01:43:18 <pikhq> Fiora: Anxious autistic wreck? That's fun times!
01:44:04 <shachaf> i have a secret weapon against being unhappy which is that i tend to be optimistic about things all the time
01:44:25 <elliott> have you noticed that everything is terrible and nothing good is happening though
01:44:31 <elliott> i tend to notice that part
01:44:52 <shachaf> from my perspective lots of good things are happening hth
01:44:59 <shachaf> also lots of terrible things
01:45:14 <shachaf> even when everything is terrible i'm still optimistic
01:45:23 <shachaf> does that make me mentally unsound.............
01:47:42 <HackEgo> 2011-07-14.txt:07:43:47: <elliott> meta-turing-complete, too!
01:48:05 <Bike> blowing my mind
01:48:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17625
01:48:57 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
01:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe i just came up with the pun myself and i was so disgusted with myself i projected its creation onto oerjan
01:49:15 <oerjan> `pastlogs meta.*turing
01:49:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
01:49:22 <oerjan> `pastelogs meta.*turing
01:49:22 <Bike> what if it was actually Metang
01:49:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11165
01:49:42 <kmc> "So, how 'bout them Turing machines, eh? Never know when they're gonna stop."
01:50:04 <Bike> is that from a sitcom about computer scientists
01:50:43 <kmc> in that it's from my life
01:50:58 <HackEgo> 70) <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love \ 201) <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid \ 362) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born. \ 363) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJA
01:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i was in the pub with a postgrad and someone doing some sort of research work and they both said they loved the big bang theory
01:51:45 <Bike> did you get in a bar fight
01:51:58 <shachaf> Bike: is that something to do with lawyers
01:51:59 <kmc> i hear it got better or something
01:52:10 <shachaf> hm i think they call it a lawsuit
01:52:13 <Sgeo_> Is mayonnaise an instrument?
01:52:34 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, my gf loves The Big Bang Theory
01:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (i can't tell because i think all i know about the women in your life is from anecdotes of them being stupid)
01:53:12 <shachaf> Is _The Big Bang Theory_ as bad as it sounds by reading about it on IRC?
01:53:15 <elliott> i'm the one that did that stupid thing
01:53:18 <kmc> shachaf: it's pretty bad
01:53:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it was with a space hth
01:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, what did they add actual characters to it or something
01:53:45 <kmc> i watched a fair amount of the show and laughed and then one day I realized I hated myself for it and was wasting my life
01:53:56 <shachaf> hey kmc you should read that book hth
01:54:06 <shachaf> maybe you can read my copy when you come to sf
01:54:09 <kmc> say what you will about Chuck Lorre but he is pretty good at his job
01:54:13 <elliott> hey shachaf you should read the view from the left hth
01:54:20 <Sgeo_> kmc, so, finding something enjoyable is wasting your life?
01:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, yes e.g. if that thing is masturbating or something
01:54:58 <elliott> how do i get an email address
01:55:27 <shachaf> Electronic mail? That sounds dangerous.
01:55:59 <shachaf> `pastelogs shachaf.*sounds dangerous
01:56:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3017
01:56:32 <kmc> i probably shouldn't actually make claims about wasting one's life
01:56:33 <elliott> apparently ehird@gmail.com is too short to get
01:56:33 <shachaf> maybe i should quit saying that
01:56:37 <elliott> i bet you used to be able to get ones that short
01:56:52 <kmc> let me restrict my claim to the idea that there is plenty of pop culture media that doesn't make me hate myself and I should watch that instead
01:56:53 <Sgeo_> I tried signing up for sgeo@gmail.com, it was too short
01:57:05 <elliott> which one did you try to get
01:57:17 <shachaf> I remember people were complaining.
01:57:19 <Sgeo_> sgeoster@gmail.com worked fine
01:57:33 <elliott> i think i own elliott.hird@gmail.com from roughly five billion years ago
01:57:36 <elliott> maybe i could repurpose that
01:57:38 <elliott> but it's kind of long and ugh
01:57:48 <Bike> are you signing up for EVE Online
01:58:02 <shachaf> How about penguin.of.the.gods
01:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> does elliott need a serious email address or something
01:58:39 <shachaf> Gmail is different. Here's what you need to know.
01:58:54 <shachaf> (that date is in americanese btw)
01:59:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how about phantomhoover@gmail.com
01:59:17 <shachaf> remember how it was announced on mar 31
01:59:25 <shachaf> and no one believed that you would actually get 1gb
01:59:54 <Bike> haha that was awesome
02:00:10 <elliott> guys i was 8 when gmail launched
02:00:20 <Sgeo_> ...apparently "is mayonnaise an instrument" comes from Spongebob
02:00:21 <Bike> yeah well you learned haskell when you like negative three
02:00:31 <Sgeo_> I was just taking it off the tags of a reddit blogpost
02:00:40 <shachaf> elliott and I joined #haskell within a week of each other.
02:01:17 <Bike> and what a week it was
02:02:30 <shachaf> elliott: how about: elliott.t.hird
02:02:45 <Bike> is your middle name "t"
02:03:00 <elliott> hey are google apps things still awful
02:03:02 <shachaf> outdo elliottt at his own game
02:03:03 <Bike> elliott: OVERRULED
02:03:07 <elliott> like do they still get old versions of everything
02:03:18 <shachaf> I don't have a middle name!
02:03:24 <shachaf> Middle names are the devil.
02:03:26 <elliott> also is there any email service that doesn't give my emails to the NSA
02:03:29 <Bike> yeah but you're likwe welsh shachaf
02:03:34 <elliott> or do i have to run qmail if i want e.g. basic privacy
02:03:53 <shachaf> elliott: you don't get basic privacy sorry
02:04:30 <shachaf> elliott: how about sargetron@gmail.com
02:04:38 <Bike> what's qmail do to be secure
02:04:46 <Bike> because it's not like the NSA's even trying to read content
02:05:08 <Bike> oh man wikipedia has Qmail#Controversy
02:05:10 <Bike> i'm pumped for this.
02:05:36 <elliott> i just picked qmail out of a hat btw
02:05:43 <shachaf> twist: the hat only had qmail in it
02:05:53 <Bike> well i mean i don't know what djb's doing
02:06:00 <shachaf> the question is where did you pull the hat out of......
02:06:38 <Bike> lol someone's ddosing github apparently
02:07:03 <Bike> https://status.github.com/
02:07:36 <Bike> who the hell knows
02:07:38 <kmc> To Be A Douche
02:08:56 <shachaf> zomg stat us dot github dot com
02:09:17 <kmc> httpsfs hth
02:10:32 <kmc> Sgeo_: I think there's a lot more to enjoying comedy than just whether you are laughing in the moment
02:10:55 <Sgeo_> kmc, hmm.. such as?
02:11:12 <kmc> it's like saying that food is enjoyable if it makes you not hungry anymore
02:11:33 <Bike> that reminds me of the most depressing thing i've heard in the last week
02:11:38 <kmc> laughter is a basic automatic response and that's why the cheap tricks of the mainstream sitcom are so effective
02:11:44 <shachaf> I think people tend to "enjoy" bad comedy as long as they're laughing, though. Much more than bad instances of other, uh, genres.
02:11:45 <kmc> Bike: way to sell your next statement
02:12:00 <kmc> Sgeo_: whether it's clever, whether it makes me think, whether I think about it later and quote it to friends and such
02:12:01 <Bike> well i don't really need to actually say the thing
02:12:03 <shachaf> kmc: Also you should read what _Impro_ says about comedy!
02:12:30 <shachaf> Also about teaching, and status/interaction, and creativity/spontaneity, and storytelling, and other things.
02:13:56 <kmc> i don't mean to imply that 'good' comedy must be complicated and highbrow
02:14:14 <kmc> or that laughter isn't necessary -- just that it's not sufficient
02:14:52 <kmc> the latest season of Community had a lot of attempts at fancy cleverness that just... weren't funny
02:15:12 <kmc> but now they are bringing back the original creater / showrunner, who they fired after season 3
02:15:30 <kmc> which is roughly unprecedented in the history of television
02:15:41 <kmc> yes http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/arts/television/dan-harmon-will-return-to-nbcs-community.html?_r=0
02:16:00 <shachaf> hey kmc why do i still look at news.ycombinator.com
02:16:30 <shachaf> hm good points, both of you
02:16:32 <kmc> now we will see whether the 4th season drop in quality was really caused by his departure
02:16:39 <shachaf> what's a good thing to look at
02:16:46 <kmc> although I think people wouldn't have been nearly as harsh if they hadn't known about that
02:16:49 <kmc> shachaf: twitter
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02:17:33 <elliott> 03:11:12 <kmc> it's like saying that food is enjoyable if it makes you not hungry anymore
02:17:42 <elliott> kmc: i hope you realise how totally ineffective this argument is to sgeo...
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02:17:54 <kmc> there were definitely huge differences in quality in the first 3 seasons as well
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02:17:57 <kmc> elliott: heh
02:18:08 <shachaf> Maybe it's more like saying that food is enjoyable if it's incredibly sweet or something.
02:18:17 <shachaf> Well, that's not really any good an analogy.
02:18:28 <Bike> random thought: i'd like the average math paper a lot more if whenever they constructed some definition they'd include a relatively simple thing or two that isn't in the definition
02:18:32 <Bike> there i said a thing.
02:18:49 <kmc> you mean an example of what doesn't satisfy the axioms?
02:18:51 <elliott> recently i saw a link to https://lobste.rs, i don't know if it is better or worse than HN/proggit
02:18:58 <kmc> elliott: omg me too
02:19:03 <elliott> maybe https://lobste.rs/s/bkeYe9/about_lobsters is a more useful link
02:19:16 <Bike> kmc: yeah. in this case i'm wondering if lambert fits as an elementary function or not.
02:19:23 <Bike> maybe i'm just: bad at math
02:19:52 <Bike> I mean i have the definition "I should be able to derive it right"
02:20:40 <Phantom_Hoover> proving a function to be non-elementary sounds... hard
02:20:41 <kmc> elliott: interesting
02:20:46 <Bike> yeah there's that too
02:20:59 <elliott> it seems like it does nothing to combat the fundamental issue of it will be shitty in a few years
02:21:09 <Bike> i guess proving something doesn't fit a definition is probably harder than proving it does
02:21:14 <Bike> if there's no obvious anti-definition anyway
02:21:14 <kmc> disappointed that they don't say anything about how they will prevent pervasive sexism and other HN social problems
02:21:20 <kmc> technical solutions yaaaaay
02:21:28 <Bike> let alone making up your own not-defined-thingie
02:21:43 <Bike> "The Lambert W relation cannot be expressed in terms of elementary functions. " well, ok, wikipedia to the rescue i guess.
02:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> it could well be that there's just no illuminating proof of that though
02:22:15 <Bike> i like how you have to express the derivatives and antiderivatives of this thing in terms of itself though
02:22:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: well it's also sort of the point of the paper i'm reading (showing erf isn't elementary) sooooo maybe i should just keep reading.
02:22:41 <shachaf> "elementary functions" is kind of arbitrary. :-(
02:22:57 <Bike> oh, the paper has its own rigid definition of course.
02:23:46 <Fiora> kmc: the front page of that site looks... almost exactly the same as HN's o_O
02:23:48 <Fiora> like, the same stories
02:23:49 <elliott> kmc: where you email me a bunch of links every week
02:23:55 <elliott> and maybe other people too
02:24:09 <kmc> elliott: it's called https://twitter.com/miuaf hth
02:24:30 <elliott> https://lobste.rs/t/haskell clearly terrible
02:24:46 <Bike> clever and informative
02:25:01 <Bike> what's on hn these days anyway (thanks fiora for letting me check this thing instead of hn to learn this)
02:25:27 <kmc> 7 Agile Node.js Startup Tricks That Prove Men Are Superior
02:25:28 <elliott> Bike: what are you checking/learning
02:25:36 <Fiora> I think right now it's like 90% discussions about PRISM?
02:25:39 <elliott> kmc: 5 Mains That Aren't Usually Functions
02:25:43 <Fiora> and 10% about apple or something
02:25:57 <Bike> did apple do something
02:26:01 <kmc> released some products
02:26:04 <elliott> can anyone helps me think of 3 more
02:26:05 <kmc> naturally it's the CNN front page story
02:26:11 <kmc> elliott: haskell main!!!!!!!!
02:26:13 <elliott> Bike: they gave up on cats
02:26:18 <elliott> kmc: ok that can be number 5
02:26:23 <Fiora> is it just me or like
02:26:32 <Fiora> whenever I see WWDC, I think "what would jesus do" but like with the different last two words
02:26:36 <Bike> of lions and stuff
02:26:37 <kmc> me too Fiora
02:26:51 <pikhq> Everyone knows the new iPhone Pi is the most important thing since the cure for cancer.
02:27:05 <elliott> we just need one more and we can post it to cracked
02:27:36 <Bike> oh ph's is better and even worse a mispronounciantion
02:27:41 <Bike> wow awesome spelling
02:28:13 <elliott> 03:26:50 <elliott> 1. mains power
02:28:23 <elliott> "Mozilla, Reddit, 4Chan join coalition of 86 groups asking Congress to end NSA surveillance"
02:28:28 <elliott> well if 4chan asked for it...
02:28:37 * Fiora goes back to playing more class of heroes
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02:28:53 <kmc> set of heroes
02:29:02 <elliott> set of all heroes that do not contain themselves
02:29:08 <tswett> Category of small heroes.
02:29:19 <elliott> Makes me pleased to use Firefox over Chrome.
02:29:19 <elliott> Google = makes money from data collection and supports PRISM.
02:29:19 <elliott> Mozilla = open source foundation supporting Congress ending PRISM.
02:29:19 <elliott> We should all support companies and products which are against PRISM.
02:29:30 <elliott> why am i reading the comments on this article
02:29:38 <Bike> kmc: the category of Heroes
02:29:38 <kmc> i wonder if they know where mozilla's money comes from
02:29:45 <pikhq> elliott: Because you are self-injurious.
02:29:48 <Bike> Probably gnomes
02:29:52 <kmc> it's still better but....
02:30:10 <elliott> kmc: it's open source they don't need money
02:30:27 <tswett> So, have a regex: /e([ck]+s*[sc]|[ck]*xs*c?)ers*[sc]i[sz]+e/
02:30:30 <Bike> their only source of outcome is paying kmc to hack on rust
02:30:34 <elliott> kmc: is there a good email client
02:30:43 <tswett> I wonder how many words satisfying that regex have ever been used in an honest attempt to spell the word "exercise".
02:31:20 <Bike> tswett: there's infinite possible strings and people have only used a finite set of them, so obviously it's neglible.
02:31:39 <tswett> So the answer is "finitely many".
02:32:14 <pikhq> elliott: My experience suggests there is exactly one.
02:32:20 <pikhq> It is named netcat.
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02:33:49 <kmc> HELO THIS IS DOG
02:33:50 <Fiora> oh, it's just a PSP dungeon crawler game thing <.<
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02:34:36 <Bike__> radio one anti nazi mix
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02:35:18 <Bike> mars needs women
02:35:46 <pikhq> 250 EHLO DOG THIS IS SMTP
02:35:51 <Fiora> it's an electronic device ._.
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02:39:30 <oerjan> elliott: main street hth
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02:42:24 <tswett> I love the term "controlled flight into terrain".
02:43:04 <kmc> it's bad times
02:43:13 <oerjan> elliott: mayonnaise hth
02:43:18 <Bike> does that mean what it sounds like
02:43:31 <tswett> A rather low-key term for a rather undesirable event.
02:44:22 <elliott> Controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) describes an accident in which an airworthy aircraft, under pilot control, is unintentionally flown into the ground, a mountain, water, or an obstacle.
02:44:29 <elliott> i was thinking it might be only for intentional cases
02:44:59 <Bike> According to this paper, h such that h(z)⁵cos(log(z)) + h(z)³tan(exp(z) + sin⁻¹(z)) + 7 = 0 is an elementary function in some domains. That's pretty cool.
02:47:11 <Bike> oh damn, you're right.
02:48:54 <tswett> Bike: what does "in some domains" mean here?
02:50:12 <Bike> oh, just local soltions to that
02:50:54 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_logic help
02:55:14 <tswett> That's an interesting word: "castrophony"
02:55:50 <tswett> I assume it's a blend of "catastrophe" and "cacophony".
03:04:37 <Bike> You should ask zzo about linear logic.
03:05:51 <tswett> zzo: hey, would you mind helping me with linear logic once you get back? It seems like there ought to be some good metaphor for it.
03:06:16 <shachaf> kmc: You know the thing where you apt-get install a program and then it gets marked as automatically installed without asking and you get annoyed?
03:09:19 <kmc> no i don't
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03:18:11 <oerjan> this is getting annoying :(
03:18:29 <ion> shachaf: Huh. Never happened to me.
03:21:42 <oerjan> i am wondering if this is the same kind of disconnection which i used to have on my old laptop, months back (but haven't had in a while) or if this is something win8 is causing...
03:22:21 <oerjan> one thing i note is that irssi is _not_ kept alive on the other side this time. oh well.
03:23:28 <oerjan> in other news, does anyone know if there is any way in IE 10 to add minor search alternatives like esolang or wiktionary, or if you really only can add things that are in microsoft's gallery
03:24:26 <oerjan> i recall IE 8 _tried_ to send you to the gallery but had a way to get to the suggestions on the current website. now i don't see that anywhere.
03:25:14 <shachaf> kmc: when i misspeak like that sometimes i feel like a complete idiot and how could i possibly have said that thing and then i apologize a lot and so on to make sure everyone knows i'm fully aware how wrong i was
03:25:27 * oerjan managed to add wikipedia but had to change gallery to avoid getting just the norwegian one
03:25:28 <shachaf> i don't know if you're doing that but from the outside it probably seems much more minor than from the inside
03:25:32 <shachaf> or maybe not. i don't really know
03:26:04 <kmc> it's all right though
03:27:18 <Koen_> hey this "source code" film is actually really good
03:27:20 <shachaf> other things people do (but i don't so much?): attack the thing they just said, repeatedly mention how idiotic it would be to think it
03:27:48 <Koen_> and then people in the audience get upset because they were thinking it
03:29:09 <Bike> source code was pretty cool
03:36:01 <elliott> oerjan: btw i suggest switching from win8 hth
03:36:20 <elliott> i don't know what kmc is apologising for, help
03:36:24 <elliott> i don't even see an apology
03:36:55 <coppro> win8 makes no sense to me
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03:39:58 <kmc> shachaf does this thing where he talks in one channel about happenings in another channel without giving any context
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03:47:40 <shachaf> How do I ask irssi who has the most channels in common with me?
03:48:36 <shachaf> The most I can find is 10.
03:48:49 <kmc> how do i see what channels someone is in?
03:49:16 <elliott> kmc: let me introduce you to whois hth
03:49:23 <shachaf> /whois will tell you only the channels they have in common with you (unless they disable that, like ski)
03:49:42 <shachaf> But irssi keeps track of who's in what channel.
03:49:50 <elliott> copumpkin: you should make agda's universe polymorphism not awful, thanks
03:50:11 <shachaf> what about existence polymorphism
03:50:18 <shachaf> or would that be existence monomorphism
03:52:18 <shachaf> wow ski is in a lot of "p. cool" channels
03:54:06 <kmc> elliott: i whois'd you, did you see
03:57:16 <kmc> i don't know
03:57:21 <kmc> can you see when someone whois's you
03:57:31 <kmc> shachaf is trying to confuse me with bogus CTCPs
03:57:37 <kmc> i see through his knavish tricks
03:57:46 <Sgeo_> whois asks the server a question. ctcp is a message to the person
03:58:42 <kmc> no such agency
03:58:46 <shachaf> kmc isn't even responding to my ctcps
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03:59:59 <Sgeo_> I thought that was in response to me CTCPing shachaf for a second
04:02:10 <Sgeo_> If there was a notice of some sort, I should have noticed
04:04:49 <elliott> copumpkin: what did you do
04:05:16 <elliott> copumpkin: i think you will find it's still awful. tdh
04:05:37 <copumpkin> elliott: how would you improve it?
04:06:09 <elliott> copumpkin: well when i use coq i don't think about universes at all and then i complete a definition and it gives me a universe consistency error and i have to start over
04:06:19 <elliott> copumpkin: and i consider this preferable to having to think about universes every five seconds but not having problems in the end
04:20:04 <copumpkin> I'm not a fan of magic, but I also hate that it pollutes my type sigs
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04:21:24 <elliott> well, at least Coq's magic is just fairly simple constraint solving
04:23:05 <Bike> fiora, kmc: http://t.co/M0ClqSucMU this is kinda neat
04:23:59 <elliott> Bike: subscribe me to the fiora-kmc list please (i like regehr.org too) (why did you use a url shortener)
04:24:41 <Bike> because i got it off twitter, i've never even heard of regehr and know shit-all about type-punning or programming
04:26:01 <Bike> (elliott: http://blog.regehr.org/archives/959 this is kinda neat hth)
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04:31:58 <kmc> i don't understand the type pun rules re: unions
04:32:23 <kmc> i thought unions were the designated ok way to view the same bytes with different types
04:33:29 <kmc> wikipedia thinks so
04:33:40 <kmc> an expert source
04:33:47 <kmc> there should be a language whose spec is explicitly what's on wikipedia
04:37:24 <Bike> i mostly thought it was interesting that it knew memcpy that well, i guess.
04:38:01 <kmc> my friend had another point re: impostor syndrome, which is that there's a game equilibrium aspect
04:38:16 <kmc> if everyone around you is saying how bad and dumb they are, you have to say it too or else you seem arrogant (to yourself and others)
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04:39:22 <kmc> at caltech there were a lot of conversations where everyone was kind of bragging about how dumb they are and how they were failing all their classes
04:39:33 <kmc> interestingly i've heard this doesn't happen at MIT
04:42:03 <Bike> that would handily explain why grad students are mostly fucking wrecks
04:42:51 <elliott> that's just down to the wreckophilia Bike
04:43:17 <Bike> wow it took me like four whole seconds to understand wtf you just said.
04:51:52 <elliott> Bike: how many words rhyme with bike
04:53:14 <Bike> Trike, bike, [ethnic slur], psych, Mike, like
04:54:27 <elliott> you missed at least one, sorry
04:54:42 <Bike> That's the slur, hth.
04:57:27 <Bike> ther'es only one slur
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05:55:04 <HackEgo> olist 893: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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06:20:29 <kmc> is there a list of which foolists are what
06:20:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: listlist: not found
06:21:56 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
06:22:49 <shachaf> emptylist is empty. list is a list people of who've run list. makelist presumably makes a list. olist is Order of the Stick. pbflist is Perry Bible Fellowship. pbflistdeluxe is also perrybiblefellowship, but much better. slist is MS Pain Adventures. smlist is Super Mega Comics.
06:23:56 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
06:24:01 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
06:24:35 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/:/${@:+ }$@:/' bin/emptylist
06:26:37 <shachaf> Hmm, there should be a c.b.miuaf update list.
06:26:47 <shachaf> Last update was in Dec, though...
06:27:14 <kmc> i should make some more things
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07:05:42 <kmc> is that so
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07:56:00 <shachaf> kmc: what would it take to get a unicode codepoint named after me
07:56:53 <kmc> good life goal
07:57:35 <shachaf> trying to figure out what counts
07:57:51 <shachaf> i think it has to be named after me, not just coïncide with my name
07:58:08 <shachaf> does it count if it's named after something which is named after someone
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08:22:12 <kmc> i hate it when i'm worrying about something and then I forget what specifically and it just leaves this diffuse feeling of worry that I can't even pretend to attack rationally
08:30:14 <kmc> does this happen to anyone else
08:30:37 <Taneb> I once got a feeling that I ought to be depressed
08:30:46 <Taneb> And then felt guilty for being happy
08:31:11 <kmc> that sucks
09:10:57 <shachaf> `run echo blah blah blah blah | zalgo
09:11:00 <HackEgo> bͩ͠l̖͒a̷̛h̳͞ ͫ͘b̤͟l̶̷å̛h̉͝ ̦ͪb͔ͪl̨ͭa͇̝h̶͖ ͗͟b͔̕ḷ̕a͕͝h͙͘
09:11:04 <shachaf> `run echo blah blah blah blah | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
09:11:09 <HackEgo> b̛̟̭̺̺͍̖͕ͯ̑͗̽̄ͩ͆͠l็̸̨̙̮̜̲̗̍͐̉̀͢͟ͅͅa̫̞̣̯̰̯̍̒̈ͯͫͤ̓̅̐͠h̟͇̰̣͒̉ͣ͗́̿ͣͫ͊ͥ̇̕ ̨̛̫̦̜̼͔̞̰̐̌͂ͫ͜͝͞b͉̪̻̫̤͕̒̃͆҉̤̬͓̘ͭ̕l̞̥̦͖̞̳̊̏ͯ͛̉̍̒͘͜͝a̵͎̱̜̭̩̤͙̿ͮ͒̍͊̐̉҉h̸̟͍͈̞͓͇̙̥̏́͒͟҉̖͝ ̴̩̹̙̙͖̺ͫ́͐́̎̂́͊̕bͣ̀̆̎͝ͅ҉͔̠
09:12:34 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
09:12:42 <HackEgo> ȁ͍i̶͙s̟͚5̷̀2̭̱3̴̗ ̒̎a͖̚t̪ͩr͎̅i̙̚q̵̗ ͩͩB̰̑i̘̭k͌͂e̤̓ ͪ͜b̨͌o͕̦i̮̹l͎̔y͕ͬ ̺̃c͙̊u͎̍t́͏ṫ̼l̳̭é͙f̱̽ȋͯs̳͛h̄̈ ̜̋eͪ͘l͙̀l̯̂ï̍ŏ͌t̢̠t̨̬ ̥ͫfͦ͡g̭͇r̩̍ẹͬp̤̈ ̱ͨḞ̮ị̢o̧̓r̤̅a̪͙ ̉͠f̰̒u͍ͪn̂͋g͋̒o͏̜t̫͕ ̑͜Hͪ͘a̾͢c̝͌ḵ̅E̛͕gͪ̈́o͔͍ ̐̎
09:12:51 <Taneb> In retrospect I should have done that in /msg
09:13:39 <lambdabot> monochrom says: in retrospect, it seems lisp designers were more interested in list processing than functional programming
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09:21:22 <Taneb> shachaf, what's the convention for +1'ing something on libraries@
09:23:16 <shachaf> I think you reply with the message "+1" or something weird like that.
09:24:21 <shachaf> if someone figured out a good solution to the problem that monad transformers are trying to solve, that would be the best thing
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10:58:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you learn lens yet
11:03:41 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
11:04:07 <FireFly> shachaf already `olist'd #893
11:05:06 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you understand profunctor lenslikes
11:05:22 <mnoqy> im too tired to understand anything but probably?
11:05:24 <shachaf> i don't know the laws for them :'( do you know
11:05:35 <mnoqy> i dont know their laws at least offhand
11:05:53 <shachaf> well i mean i want a compositionlike law
11:07:16 <nooodl> i remember reading what a profunctor is but then i forgot RIP
11:07:35 <nooodl> actually i think shachaf even explained it to someone once?
11:08:44 <mnoqy> "as with most things" defn of profunctors depends on who you ask
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11:09:38 <Taneb> A profunctor is simply a bifunctor that is contravariant in its first argument.
11:09:53 <mnoqy> see thats the answer you get if you ask Taneb
11:09:58 <nooodl> but covariant in its second?
11:10:10 <Taneb> shachaf, I have a hat
11:10:14 <Taneb> And some chocolate
11:10:18 <Taneb> Does that make me a pro
11:10:25 <nooodl> shachaf, oops i actually imagined this
11:10:34 <Taneb> The chocolate is in a cardboard box
11:10:40 <Taneb> The box is wearing the hat
11:12:35 <nooodl> ugh i feel like category theory but i'm being forced to do other dumb things
11:12:52 <mnoqy> try not being forced to do other dumb things
11:12:57 <mnoqy> ALT stick it to the man
11:13:12 <mnoqy> ALT get someone to do stupid dumb things for you
11:13:16 <mnoqy> ALT get someone to do category theory for you
11:14:12 <shachaf> ALT TWIST category theory is dumb things
11:14:37 <nooodl> shachaf, apparently i was thinking of you explaining CoYoneda to bike in april
11:16:36 <shachaf> what does coyoneda have to do with profunctors
11:16:51 <shachaf> mnoqy: was the twist actually good or did you mean bad twist when you said good twist
11:17:02 <mnoqy> thatd be a good twist wouldnt it
11:17:02 <shachaf> because that would be a twist of its own(meta twist?)
11:17:17 <shachaf> i never meta twist i didn't eat
11:19:13 <shachaf> i wish i was as good as mnoqy at things
11:19:23 <shachaf> mnoqy: how can i become as good as you (or better)
11:19:47 <mnoqy> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
11:20:24 <Taneb> `run echo "only ten pounds" | wisdom/otp
11:20:26 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/otp: No such file or directory
11:20:51 <Taneb> `pastelogs "Taneb..."
11:21:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29240
11:21:06 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: sponge: not found
11:21:29 <shachaf> `run echo 'cat > wisdom/otp' > wisdom/otp; chmod +x wisdom/otp
11:21:31 <Taneb> `run pastelogs "Taneb..."
11:21:34 <shachaf> `run echo "only ten pounds" | wisdom/otp
11:21:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31150
11:21:56 <Sgeo_> ...bots in AW will no longer be free
11:25:16 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Phantom_Hoover makes a very good point.
11:35:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16794
11:35:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3067
11:36:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17444
11:37:16 <Phantom_Hoover> 2013-04-11.txt:01:05:11: <monqy> well yes hes picky about trivialities that much is obvious. those ui concerns are real but the underlying issue is that he --sgeo..............................................
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12:10:53 <Taneb> I forgot I had contributed to that kickstarter
12:11:30 <Taneb> Girl Genius and the Rats of Mechanicsburg
12:16:16 <nooodl> yes :( (note: i have only limited experience with it)
12:16:57 <mnoqy> The comic has won five WCCA awards including 2008 Outstanding Comic, and been nominated for a Hugo Award for Best Professional Artist, an Eagle Award and twice for an Eisner Award; in 2009, 2010, and 2011 it won the Hugo Award for Best Graphic Story.
12:17:06 <mnoqy> UM it sounds like THESE PEOPLE disagree with you
12:17:25 <mnoqy> nb idk anything about this comic but its probably really bad and awful
12:18:41 <mnoqy> wow this art style is amazing. i am digging these faces.
12:23:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I enjoy it
12:23:46 <mnoqy> nooodl: whats your experience with it...youve gotta compete with an "enjoying it"
12:25:42 <mnoqy> the name is lame and the subtitle is lame too but i cant belive you dont dig the art
12:26:15 <mnoqy> i mean just look at this [latest comic] http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggmain/strips/ggmain20130612.jpg
12:28:09 <shachaf> what is it with the comic strip style where you
12:28:18 <shachaf> bold words in almost every sentence
12:28:57 <shachaf> you know what i'm talking about right
12:29:28 <nooodl> i always thought that was there to like
12:30:04 <nooodl> but would you really stress that "NEED"? it's ridic.
12:30:11 <nooodl> so it's probably something else...
12:30:59 <nooodl> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoldInflation
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12:48:58 <ASMK568> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
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12:58:42 <ASMK879> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
12:58:42 -!- ASMK879 has left.
12:59:43 <nooodl> thatd be rude taking peoples' friends
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13:08:36 <ASMK574> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
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13:11:25 <Taneb> What would befunge look like on a hyperbolic plane
13:12:10 <mnoqy> i guess the question is: you need to slap some sort of tesselation down, so what will it be
13:12:13 <mnoqy> octagons?????????????????????
13:12:24 <Taneb> I was thinking pentagons
13:13:01 <mnoqy> hm whats the optimal--what--polygon
13:13:20 <shachaf> mnoqy: triangles are the optimal polygone hth
13:13:28 <mnoqy> i've seen heptagons done before, i think
13:13:30 <shachaf> i mean in general. not talkking about tesselation
13:13:44 <mnoqy> (i think "hyperrogue" does heptagons)
13:13:58 <mnoqy> ((its a roguelike in hyperbolic plane, if u're uncultured))
13:14:29 <shachaf> i didn't know that but now i know it
13:15:50 <nooodl> p. sure everyone here is cultured now, as of that line
13:16:11 <shachaf> what if you were so uncultured to start with
13:16:15 <shachaf> you didn't even know how to read
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13:17:05 <ASMK324> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
13:17:06 -!- ASMK324 has left.
13:19:54 * itsy goes to join iBooter...
13:20:39 <mnoqy> its been a while since ive looked at it
13:20:52 <shachaf> what kind of tesseleation is that
13:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> What would befunge look like on a hyperbolic plane
13:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fortunately befunge never uses diagonal adjacency afaik so that avoids some awkward problems
13:22:02 <mnoqy> ...yeah there are definitely hexagons in here with the heptagons wtf
13:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> is it this tiling: <Taneb> What would befunge look like on a hyperbolic plane
13:22:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uniform_tiling_73-t12.png
13:24:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H2_tiling_24i-4.png ok
13:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H2chess_24ic.png the edges in this diagram are the set of straight lines for program execution
13:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> heh, i just realised all the white/black regions in that diagram are infinity-gons
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13:38:40 <nooodl> man. what if: infinite-dimensional space, R^\infty, points are functions N -> R
13:38:53 <nooodl> this probably already exists??? it's so boring
13:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> note that you're still only able to use a countable subspace
13:39:35 <mnoqy> the obvious one is only allow finitely supported functions
13:40:55 <nooodl> doesn't every total function N -> R define a point + aren't functions N -> R uncountable
13:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but you can only specify a countable number of those functions
13:41:44 <mnoqy> oh by "define a point" you mean...yeah
13:42:21 <nooodl> (you mean, it'd be countable in the same way that the subset of R you can "use" is countable, right)
13:43:24 <nooodl> anyway the neat thing is you get points that are infinitely far from the origin, but are finite in all dimensions, like (1,1,1,1,...)
13:44:16 <nooodl> Q: what would the equation for a line be
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13:44:56 <mnoqy> a "line" in a vector spac is just a 1-dimensional subspace
13:45:30 <mnoqy> \{f : f(x) = 0 for all x > 0\}
13:45:57 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, p + lv, where p and v are pretty much arbitrary vectors
13:46:05 <mnoqy> 06:43:24 <nooodl> anyway the neat thing is you get points that are infinitely far from the origin, but are finite in all dimensions, like (1,1,1,1,...)
13:46:14 <mnoqy> not if you only allow finitely supported functions!!!
13:46:22 <mnoqy> (imo a sane restriction)
13:47:05 <mnoqy> oh wow i just noticed i put \'s on my { and }
13:47:11 <mnoqy> i almost wrote \forall too
13:47:17 <mnoqy> to what have i come
13:47:20 <nooodl> also neat: there are non-finitely supported functions (btw thanks for teaching me this words) with a finite distance to the origin!!
13:47:41 <nooodl> like f(x) = 1 / sqrt(2^x) would have a norm of 2
13:47:53 <mnoqy> um what norm are we using here
13:48:08 <nooodl> distance to (0,0,0,0,...)
13:48:33 <nooodl> (note: i'm dumb) which norms do i get to choose from
13:48:54 <nooodl> i calculated that using uh
13:49:18 <nooodl> |f| = \sqrt{ sum_{i=0}^\infty f(i)^2 }
13:49:18 <mnoqy> i hear the "l2" norm is popular (smile)
13:49:39 <nooodl> oh it'd have a norm of \sqrt 2 i guess
13:50:00 <nooodl> oh that's "euclidean norm"
13:50:24 <mnoqy> "doesnt really exist sorry"
13:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> the closest thing to a sensible value i can think of for |(1,1,1,1,1,...)| is 1
13:50:57 <nooodl> for |(1,1,1,...)| it'd be infinite RIP
13:51:14 <nooodl> that probably makes this "not very euclidean"
13:51:31 <mnoqy> as ph notes the l_\infty norm is "preferable"
13:51:56 <mnoqy> but things still dont always have those norms
13:52:06 <mnoqy> like the identity function wouldnt
13:52:15 <nooodl> how'd you calculate the l_\infty norm
13:52:20 <mnoqy> (i dont actually know of any norms for infinite dimensional spaces off hand)
13:52:42 <mnoqy> nooodl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space
13:53:02 <mnoqy> nooodl: its just the maximum of all the absolute values
13:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember proving the groundwork for that in analysis
13:53:23 <nooodl> ooh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequence_space
13:53:45 <nooodl> i like how i invented this independently though!!
13:53:54 <mnoqy> those are a thing yes
13:54:03 <mnoqy> iv dealt with them like once
13:54:31 <nooodl> man i should Math more
13:54:55 <mnoqy> something about you felt like category theorying
13:55:17 <nooodl> btw im going to be taking a category theory course in about 6 years
13:55:51 <mnoqy> alt. how do you know they offer cat theory (i dont know what university this is)
13:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you do category theory in warwick until postgrad stuff but probably you can do it in 4th year
14:01:20 <mnoqy> i guess it depends on the university as to how friendly they are about undergraduates taking graduate courses.........im just really used to it by now
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14:05:05 <nooodl> http://i.imgur.com/qyMCRSJ.png
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14:07:31 <nooodl> that's a "first year (master)" course which means i need a bachelor degree first which takes 3 years
14:07:50 <mnoqy> so do they really not let you go out of sequence. laughs
14:07:53 <nooodl> and then of course there's one more year of "high school" before "university" even starts!!
14:08:22 <nooodl> and i hear next year involves
14:08:32 <nooodl> integrals: but ONLY numerically
14:08:44 <nooodl> and also circles and geometry and boring stuff
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14:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> you mean you're not actually going to cover symbolic integration
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14:09:50 <nooodl> that's "university level" :')
14:10:28 <mnoqy> integration is for losers anyway though
14:10:48 <mnoqy> last time i needed it was a probability course and i just used a computer algebra system to do all my integrals for me
14:11:42 <nooodl> yeah i hate most of this stuff because
14:11:43 <mnoqy> that was....a year ago.......and the last time i had needed them prior to that was..........gosh like 4 or 5 years ago
14:11:50 <nooodl> deriving functions manually is hell
14:12:06 <mnoqy> deriving? OH you mean like calculus derivatives
14:12:15 <nooodl> and then the exam is no-calculator and you can't check it (yeah) and it's
14:13:11 <mnoqy> heh heh (smirk) hm come to think of it i did some other "integral and derivatives stuff" last year but it was analysis so instead of doing computations it was analysis.
14:13:36 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, wait, do they expect you to actually like... manually... numerically... integrate?
14:13:48 <mnoqy> there are approximation techniques
14:13:57 <nooodl> oh no the integration is gonna be done on a ti-84
14:14:12 <mnoqy> hm and iv been seeing a bunch of "ends" recently which are notated like integrals
14:14:23 <nooodl> we have to know how to symbolically work out derivatives though
14:14:49 <mnoqy> it's like a limit except instead of a cone you have a wedge
14:14:54 <nooodl> but square roots........
14:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> the quotient rule is like the hardest thing you have to do
14:15:10 <nooodl> also: but 2nd derivatives involving quotient rule ......................
14:15:24 <nooodl> we didn't cover the chain rule
14:15:32 <nooodl> instead learning a bunch of extra formulae for
14:15:55 <mnoqy> nooodl: http://nlab.mathforge.org/nlab/show/end
14:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> so do ends end up being equivalent to integrals in some category
14:17:34 <nooodl> imo everyone should explain CT concepts as "in Set, it's this"
14:17:39 <mnoqy> idk :[ idk what that would even mean
14:17:58 <nooodl> what are limits/colimits in Set even
14:18:22 <nooodl> (ps i don't know what CT (co-)limits are other than "they exist")
14:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> well see limits are actually equivalent to proper limits in... some category
14:19:21 <mnoqy> limits are infima in preorder categories
14:19:28 <mnoqy> likewise, colimits are suprema
14:22:07 <mnoqy> nooodl: i dont know all the pedagogical tools for explaining most category theory things so all i can do is make bad jokes :(
14:22:24 <nooodl> this reminds me you haven't read my type theory joke
14:22:38 <mnoqy> i bet its not as good as elliott's homotopy type theory joke
14:22:58 <nooodl> q: why do type theorists have trouble opening bags
14:23:09 <nooodl> a: they can't discern the bag from its zipper
14:23:25 <elliott> my homotopy type theory joke is fnatastic nooodl
14:23:31 <elliott> 01:34:11 <elliott> joke: do you relate type-theoretic equality to the paths of homotopy theory, because you're pretty HoTT
14:24:29 <Phantom_Hoover> what i want to know is, can you do all the stuff with ants and elastic bands and toruses in htt
14:24:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there's work on doing homotopy theory in hott
14:25:22 <nooodl> mnoqy: rate my joke please
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14:29:09 <mnoqy> `relcome lambdabot
14:29:12 <HackEgo> lambdabot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:32:00 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
14:32:07 <mnoqy> > id :: Show a => a -> a
14:43:40 <elliott> Taneb: can't have lens/void until hashable bug is fixed
14:58:46 <FreeFull> Does lambdabot do the monomorphism restriction thing too?
15:01:32 <elliott> https://github.com/tibbe/hashable/issues/69
15:02:36 <FreeFull> Don't want to do it yourself locally for now?
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15:19:08 <ais523> problem I just solved for #esoteric to guess at: what's the standard UNIX command for determining the modification time of a file, in a format that can be piped into other programs?
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15:19:55 <ais523> I tried to get ls to work for ages, but it doesn't
15:20:11 <ais523> the options to output machine-readable formats are mutually exclusive with the options to output dates
15:20:16 <ais523> date works for mtime, at least
15:20:23 <ais523> although not for atime or ctime, I guess you're meant to use perl for those
15:23:00 <elliott> Taneb: how would it be rmdir?
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16:41:46 <gasoline> wow i got fucken kickbanned for opping in ##esoteric
16:42:15 <mnoqy> `relcome back, gasoline
16:42:18 <ais523> what's ##esoteric anyway
16:42:18 <HackEgo> back,: gasoline: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:42:45 <elliott> ais523: gasoline is a troll, btw
16:42:53 <elliott> mnoqy: what was their other name again
16:43:04 <mnoqy> elliott: gosh its on the tip of my tongue
16:43:08 <mnoqy> i;ll have to look it up
16:43:12 <ais523> and yeah, was going to ask "do you have evidence for that?"
16:43:22 <elliott> ais523: well, the last thing they said last time was that they'd be back :)
16:43:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20011
16:43:38 <gasoline> you might as well pastelog the fucken answer too dude
16:43:50 <mnoqy> elliott: newstalker
16:44:16 <ais523> elliott: well he/she's making more sense now than before, at least
16:44:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7432
16:44:38 <gasoline> who programmed that piece of crap
16:45:05 <ais523> 2013-06-02.txt:14:32:26: -!- ChanServ changed the modes of #esoteric: +v newstalker
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16:45:23 <elliott> ais523: chanserv knew what had to be done
16:45:30 <ais523> who's responsible for that?
16:45:57 <ais523> I mean, who told chanserv to
16:46:14 <elliott> are you saying chanserv isn't allowed to do things by its own free will
16:46:21 <ais523> no, it's allowed to, it just doesn't
16:46:58 <elliott> can we get the banning part out of the way with
16:47:01 <ais523> actually I think I know who did the voicing
16:47:15 <ais523> elliott: well you know how I'm typically pretty slow to ban people
16:47:24 <ais523> does this channel have a rule against offtopic discussion?
16:47:44 <elliott> lol do you actually look at that pastelogs and just see "offtopic discussion" :DDD
16:47:50 <ais523> elliott: no, I was trying to troll you :)
16:47:55 <gasoline> elliott is the channel homosexual
16:48:06 <ais523> OK, gasoline, why are you insulting people randomly?
16:48:22 <elliott> how about you op me so i can kickban repeat offenders like this without the boring ritual in front of it
16:48:26 * itsy looks in to see if anyone's talking about esolangs...
16:48:27 <elliott> imo that'd be great and efficient
16:48:28 <ais523> can't, I've got about 3 screenfuls of chanserv help messages
16:48:52 <gasoline> if anyone is insulting its elliott and his "welcome"
16:48:53 <ais523> elliott: well part of the reason you aren't an op is we're worried you'd be a bit too trigger-hapy
16:49:00 <mnoqy> itsy: i hear there was a great "derp code" language recently
16:49:16 <ais523> at this point I've already made my mind up to kick gasoline, though, but I'm waiting to see his/her reaction because I think it'll be amusing
16:49:23 <elliott> ais523: it's true, i make sure to ban at least five people from #haskell every day
16:49:27 <elliott> it's my quota... for blood
16:49:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
16:49:41 <elliott> gasoline: btw mnoqy was the one who welcomed you
16:49:43 -!- ais523 has kicked gasoline that's a boring reaction :(.
16:50:36 <ais523> elliott: odds on how long before he/she tries to rejoin?
16:50:42 <FreeFull> IS there any interesting more recent esoteric language?
16:51:14 <ais523> I'd love it if there were
16:51:28 <ais523> something I was thinking about a while ago, discarded, and started thinking about again
16:51:44 <ais523> is "can you get interesting computational complexity from the word-wrap algorithm used by every editor ever?"
16:51:48 <ais523> I suspect the answer is no, though
16:54:10 <elliott> ais523: if they're sad enough to come back two times they are probably fine waiting
16:54:21 <elliott> this is why bans are good, so that someone who is not welcome in the channel can be prevented from disrupting it even when ops aren't around
16:54:42 <ais523> yeah but pretty much any troll who knows what they're doing can bypass bans anyway
16:55:01 <mnoqy> who needs bans with ever vigilant ops like #esoteric;s
16:55:13 <elliott> does this person strike you as the kind of person who knows what they're doing
16:55:20 <elliott> it seems to me like they are incredibly stupid
16:55:41 <mnoqy> im sure thats what they want you to think
16:57:57 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b #esoteric!*@*.
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16:58:38 <ais523> elliott: well I tried to ban them and my IRC client segfaulted
16:58:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
16:58:51 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -b #esoteric!*@*.
16:59:08 <elliott> ais523: that was a good ban
16:59:16 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b *!*@5ED28E0D.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl.
16:59:23 <ais523> elliott: it's meaningless
16:59:33 <ais523> a channel can't send messages to itself, insufficient free will
16:59:35 <elliott> ais523: well, if #esoteric joined #esoteric...
17:00:22 <ais523> anyway, Konversation's capacity for interesting responses to typos continues to amuse me
17:00:26 <nooodl> #esoteric is an invalid nickname, so, imo ban it
17:01:41 <nooodl> how many ops does #esoteric have?
17:02:21 <ais523> although one of them is freenode-staff, one of them is never seen, and one of them turns up occasionally to troll
17:02:41 <ais523> leaving three who might reasonably ban a troll (me, fizze, and oerjan)
17:03:00 <ais523> elliott: what happened last time lament was here?
17:03:09 <nooodl> i have weird opinions about irc moderation, but...
17:03:10 <ais523> they turned up, unbanned a troll, and the troll turned up too and started trolling?
17:03:31 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
17:03:40 <elliott> ais523: they unbanned dbelange and he joined
17:03:40 <nooodl> i frequent a ~40 user channel where literally every regular is an op and it's extremely convenient
17:03:46 <elliott> ais523: lament knows dbelange from #math or someting
17:03:48 <elliott> so presumably he invited him
17:04:04 <ais523> need to check what that ban was for
17:04:12 <ais523> I remember it was warranted, but not why
17:04:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2521
17:04:26 <elliott> ais523: dbelange is infamous as an IRC troll
17:04:52 <ais523> oh wow, that's pretty trolly
17:04:53 * itsy wonders if anyones written a Quine in Mouse http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mouse
17:05:09 <elliott> ais523: that's saying something coming from you.
17:05:20 <ais523> itsy: if it's been around that long, probably
17:05:28 <ais523> especially if it caught on enough to have a book written about it
17:06:00 <ais523> admittedly, INTERCAL's had a book written about it (the newest manual; I spent a Christmas writing that)
17:06:08 <ais523> but reverse-admittedly, INTERCAL also has a quine
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17:14:13 <mnoqy> shouldn't you be working, Sgeo|work
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17:16:57 <Sgeo|work> In what universe is hpaste.org a proxy avoidance site?
17:17:28 <elliott> hpaste.orgs a full disk site
17:17:41 <mnoqy> something about exotic porn
17:19:23 <itsy> ais523: the closest I got to a Mouse Quine: #f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"#f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"@
17:19:58 <itsy> The problem is ! in a string represents a newline :-(
17:26:20 <Sgeo|work> Webchat keeps the tab saying Activity! even when there is no activity
17:26:54 <mnoqy> maybe webchat isn't the best client
17:44:00 <Bike> yo elliott you have a hott date with a book
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17:56:12 <Sgeo|work> Also, ais523 is a form of version control?
17:56:26 <itsy> Are there any classic Mac experts here?
17:56:48 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I kicked him/her for being insufficiently amusing for us to permit a troll here, then my client segfaulted when I tried to ban him/her
17:57:41 <ais523> I do that sometimes too, but more frequently just to Agorans
17:57:44 <Bike> bla bla nonbinary exclusion bla
17:57:51 <Sgeo|work> em is totally the normal thing to say if you assume everyone not in Agora is nonnormal
17:58:01 <Bike> anyway apparently there are crypto startups i didn't know this
17:58:30 <Sgeo|work> e is the only dumb spivak pronoun but I still prefer it over ey because tradition
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18:54:57 <Sgeo|work> Is there supposed to be anything interesting about DL?
18:59:27 <Sgeo|work> Idea: Compression algorithm that is lossless iff some unsolved conjecture is true
18:59:43 <mnoqy> theres nothing interesting aboout this language
19:00:46 <Sgeo|work> There's a conjecture that goes something like this, right?: Any number can be expressed as the sum of X Y
19:00:53 <Sgeo|work> What are X and Y, which conjecture? I forgot
19:01:38 <mnoqy> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbach_conjecture
19:03:56 <tromp_> here's a picture of the Goldbach Conjecture as a program looking for counterexamples: https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/goldbach.gif
19:04:51 <lambdabot> elliott: (3+3) * (7+4) / 347 => 66/347 => 0.1902
19:05:43 <Sgeo|work> RLE for BF that can express any BF program stripped of comments iff Goldbach is true: {2;2+} means following character repeated 4 times, the two numbers must be primes, + means just add the two, - means add them then subtract one, multiple of a character outside {} not allowed... oh, need to allow for ++ somehow, hmm
19:05:56 <Sgeo|work> Just thought of something productive I could be doing
19:06:06 <tromp_> it's a lambda calculus term that normalizes iff GC is false
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19:19:52 <itsy> The following appear 5+ times in Pascal's Triangle: 120, 210, 1540, 7140, 11628, 24310 (all 6 times) & 3003 (8 times). Are there any others?
19:25:00 <tromp_> 61218182743304701891431482520 appears 6 or more times
19:32:51 <kmc> you can take the kmc out of the #haskell but you can never take the #haskell out of the kmc
19:34:56 <itsy> Aha, I only checked 32 bit numbers...
19:38:57 <elliott> did you tell someone "yes, haskell can do that"
19:41:01 <zzo38> I made some sequent calculus representation of Turing machines. It only uses the right side of the sequents. If combined with classical logic, the result is inconsistent, although I think it can be consistently combined with linear logic.
19:42:52 <zzo38> I don't have time right now to put it into the computer, but I will on the weekend, so that you can see.
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19:43:11 <zzo38> Do you know of any such things like this?
19:45:04 <kmc> i would be curious to see that zzo38]
19:46:58 <zzo38> kmc: On weekend I will have time to put it into the computer, I hope.
19:46:58 <zzo38> Maybe when I do that, you can also tell me if you found a mistake in it.
19:48:50 <zzo38> The Turing machine and its current state and tape are represented by a multiset of formulas on the right of the sequent, and it is provable if and only if it halts.
19:51:50 <zzo38> It doesn't have the rule of cut and of identity and of weakening and so on; it starts from nothing (this is needed for many kinds of non-classical logic, where such rules don't apply, you can't start with those!).
19:53:08 <zzo38> Could a esolang be made based on sequent calculus somehow?
19:54:49 <shachaf> kmc: looks like a good #haskell-style argument
19:55:37 <shachaf> did the person you were arguing with really switch to "i agree with you but other people don't?"
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19:56:15 <elliott> @let data Foo a = Bar | Quux a
19:56:20 <elliott> @let data Fooo a = Bar | Quux a
19:56:30 <elliott> @let instance Show (Fooo a) where show Bar = "q"; show _ = "r"
19:56:31 -!- myname has joined.
19:56:50 <zzo38> I also want to see what happen if you do combine this Turing machine logic with linear logic, to see what it makes. I believe the result is consistent but I haven't proven it. (I have proven that combining Turing machine logic with classical logic results in an inconsistent logic.)
19:57:42 <kmc> shachaf: i didn't notice
19:57:52 <shachaf> > instance Typeable (Fooo a)
19:57:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `instance'
19:58:00 <shachaf> @let instance Typeable (Fooo a)
19:58:01 <lambdabot> .L.hs:119:20: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Fooo'
19:58:12 <shachaf> @let data Hi; instance Typeable Hi
19:58:13 <lambdabot> Can't create hand written instances of Typeable in Safe H...
19:58:57 <shachaf> The other bot supported "> data ...", "let ...", like ghci. Maybe lambdabot should support that too.
20:00:21 <itsy> What value are a & b? 2 ? a ? b ? 99. Sam knows a+b. Pat knows ab. Sam: "I don't know a & b. Nor do you." Pat: "I do now!" Sam: "So do I."
20:00:30 <elliott> turns out this was already in lambdabot
20:00:35 <zzo38> Who set up lambdabot? Then tell them, or program the patch and give it to them.
20:00:36 <itsy> Problem whose solution uses goldbach conjecture :-)
20:01:45 <itsy> What value are a & b? 2 <= a <= b <= 99. Sam knows a+b. Pat knows ab. Sam: "I don't know a & b. Nor do you." Pat: "I do now!" Sam: "So do I." (IRC didn't like less than or equal character)
20:02:17 <kmc> oh there it is
20:02:26 <kmc> twitter is really bad at showing replies and at conversations generally
20:02:29 <zzo38> itsy: That isn't due to IRC; it is due to whatever character encoding is being used might or might not support it, and if the client support that character encoding or not.
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20:05:31 <zzo38> What I don't know how to make using sequent calculus is a pull-down resistor.
20:06:06 <Taneb> itsy, how does Sam know that Pat doesn't know a and b?
20:06:13 <Taneb> Does he work it out?
20:07:18 <zzo38> Taneb: At least I assume that must be.
20:09:17 <nooodl> how can the solution rely on the goldbach conjecture if a and b are <= 99?
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20:48:36 <Bike> kmc: jesus, that EFF case. the government argued that the court didn't have authority over its own files?
20:50:33 <kmc> i don't even know
20:50:52 <kmc> state secrets trials are always a kafkaesque nightmare
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20:51:26 <Bike> apparently a senator said "I hope in a classified setting that more of this can be brought light"
20:51:29 <Bike> like gee thanks
20:51:43 <kmc> if you publish classified information you will sometimes be forbidden from attending your own trial because, the evidence is classified
20:52:16 <Bike> even though it's not relevant to this it's the "born secret" part that reallly gets me
20:52:52 <Bike> if i invent a fusion bomb design it is classified
20:54:56 <Bike> maybe they'll decide that works for crypto in the future or something, sigh
20:58:44 <Fiora> isn't there that thing where they do the trials "in camera" with like a public and private version
20:59:30 <Fiora> (geez why does "in camera" mean in private that makes no sense)
20:59:46 <Bike> ^rainbow latin fetishism
21:00:12 <fizzie> (My 'v6 tunnelbroker did what the name implies and broke down; just a moment.)
21:00:35 <elliott> Fiora: well if you're inside a camera
21:00:38 <elliott> the camera can't take a picture of you
21:00:56 <Bike> if it's a pinhole camera can't it project you
21:00:57 -!- fungot has joined.
21:01:16 <fizzie> fungot: How can you take a photo in camera?
21:01:17 <fungot> fizzie: a lot of functions in r5rs that you can beat delphi and vb.net or whatever just by selling lisp for money instead of delphi or vb.net for money.
21:01:36 <Taneb> camera is Latin for room
21:01:46 <Taneb> camera is Latin for Italian
21:01:50 <Bike> Fiora: Oh, they did that (with the two versions) for the "born secret" trial.
21:02:17 <Fiora> that was the one I was remembering it from, I think
21:02:34 <Bike> i heard about that because i have an omnibus of szilard's papers, half of which were classified derp
21:03:57 <Bike> i just got a spam message from my mobile provider saying "See who's taken notice as we've enhanced your mobile experience"
21:04:04 <Bike> that sure sounds ominous in this context
21:05:18 <itsy> shachaf: & is just and
21:05:59 <Bike> shouldn't it be "I don't know a /or/ b"
21:10:36 <itsy> Taneb: Sam works it out. (I.e. from a+b, Sam knows ab can't be the product of two primes)
21:10:55 <Bike> oh, and also "Since 1979, the FISA court rejected only 11 of 33,900 govt surveillance applications" so that's cool
21:11:25 <itsy> Bike: if you know a, you know b.
21:12:48 <Bike> @ask Phantom_Hoover http://24.media.tumblr.com/3260b4b8517dd6199069ee767ec86dfe/tumblr_moaf6cZXju1qaokvbo1_500.png help
21:12:52 <itsy> Did any see about the German girl who got refused entry into the USA because the US govt read her private Facebook messages. (not posted to her wall or anything)
21:14:49 <Taneb> Bike: seen it already
21:17:07 <Bike> also why is it "1942", what
21:17:57 <elliott> iirc 1942 was when martin luther defeated the nazi's with catholicism
21:18:46 <Bike> oh my god he rewrote the whole thing.
21:18:58 <Bike> «In a sense we've come to our nation's Internet to be meme-addicts. When the web-bloggers wrote the magnificent words of the Philosoraptor and the Nyancat, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to go "Ermahgerd!" This note was a promise that all men, yes, troll-face men as well as ridiculously photogenic guys, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "rage, being forever alone, and friendship is magic."»
21:19:30 * kmc hands out cyanide pills
21:19:40 <Bike> so, in conclusion, he- thanks
21:20:36 <mnoqy> how does this exist
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21:40:00 <mnoqy> `run relcome nooodl|chaf
21:40:03 <HackEgo> nochafoodlchaf: Welcomechaf tochaf thechaf internachaftionalchaf hubchaf forchaf esotericchaf programminchafgchaf languagchafechaf designchaf andchaf deploymenchaftchaf! Forchaf morechaf informationchaf, chechafckchaf outchaf ouchafrchaf wikichaf: httpchaf://eschafolangschaf.or
21:40:53 <Bike> it's unix, so infinity
21:40:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sed -f \ s/\w\w\w\+/\0chaf/g
21:41:14 <kmc> `chaf hello
21:41:15 <HackEgo> ELFchaf............>......@.....@..................@.8..@....................@.......@.....:.......:......... ...................@......@.....$.......$..............Qtd...........................................................GNUchaf.ﲜ@+S
21:41:23 <Bike> is that... blinking...
21:41:28 <kmc> `run echo hello | chaf
21:41:37 <kmc> `run echo this is some nonsense | chaf
21:41:39 <HackEgo> thischaf is somechaf nonsensechaf
21:41:52 <Bike> yeah this is news to me
21:42:02 <HackEgo> schafhachaf: Welcchafomechaf to thchafechaf interchafnatichafonalchaf hubchaf forchaf esotericchaf prochafgrammingchaf languchafagechaf designchaf andchaf deploymechafntchaf! Forchaf morechaf informchafationchaf, checkchaf outchaf ourchaf wikichaf: httpchaf://esolangschaf.orgchaf/wikchaf
21:42:26 <Bike> i'm still confused bout prochafgrammingchaf languchafagechaf
21:42:51 <shachaf> Is the goal to make me turn off the hilight?
21:43:06 <elliott> mnoqy: ps did you write this
21:43:08 <shachaf> Maybe I should set the hilight to be kmc-only.
21:43:16 <kmc> i have no such goal
21:43:49 <shachaf> kmc: are you running for prime minister
21:48:06 <Bike> what's the hilight for, chaf\b?
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22:03:40 <oerjan> <elliott> it's a different slur! <-- [dk][iy]ke ? actually there's a not yet mentioned non-slur matching that, too
22:05:20 <oerjan> hm now google isn't answering
22:06:04 <Bike> i've never seen one of those spellings
22:06:35 <kmc> an elaborate system of dikes and polders
22:06:38 <oerjan> well i don't think kyke is a word hth
22:06:52 <oerjan> (it might still be, this is english after all)
22:07:16 <Bike> yeah apparently it's an accepted other spelling
22:07:27 <Bike> it's not like anyone's really dogmatically enforcing spellings of slurs
22:07:38 <kmc> accepted alternate spellings: [a-z]*
22:07:58 <Bike> don't be such a uaqbn, kmc
22:08:36 <kmc> yesterday i wondered what's the longest word that can be typed on the dvorak home row
22:08:38 <oerjan> oh apparently both dike and dyke can be used in both meanings
22:08:41 <elliott> don't be such a kmc, uaqbn
22:08:52 <kmc> it appears to be 'tendentiousness'
22:09:23 <kmc> for qwerty the best you can do is 'alfalfa'
22:09:53 <kmc> for the top row the longest (and most famous) word is 'typewriter'
22:10:07 <kmc> this is some indication of how fucked up qwerty is
22:11:02 <kmc> my favorite dvorak home row word is probably 'shithead'
22:11:27 <kmc> i should write a novel using only the home row in dvorak
22:11:48 <Bike> oulipo for the modern age
22:11:55 <olsner> kmc: ok, then you should write a novel using only the home row
22:12:39 <kmc> proper nouns don't count hth
22:12:50 <shachaf> because shift isn't on the front row?
22:13:12 <nooodl> my words file gives "unostentatiousness" as the longest dvorak home row word
22:13:17 <nooodl> which is pretty badass
22:13:52 <FreeFull> But what's the longest word you can write using only four letters?
22:14:05 <FreeFull> As in, only four different ones
22:15:11 <itsy> Freefull: Bananas
22:15:30 <Bike> huh, it's not often that a "longest word" of any sort is something i can understand
22:15:34 <kmc> senselessness
22:15:48 <kmc> does lambdabot have a word list loaded? that could be fun
22:16:07 <Bike> `run ls /usr/share/dict
22:16:14 <FreeFull> itsy: That's shorter than lollipop
22:16:53 <kmc> maximumBy (comparing length) . filter ((<=4) . length . nub) . lines <$> readFile "/usr/share/dict/words"
22:16:53 <FreeFull> Bike: Well, lollipop was only an example of a word that only used 4 different letters or less
22:17:10 <Bike> i meant "unostentatiousness"
22:17:20 <nooodl> 'beerbibber', 'chachalaca', 'couscousou', 'isoosmosis', 'kerrikerri', 'kotukutuku', 'recercelee', 'rememberer', 'senescence', 'sereneness', 'sleeveless', 'tattletale', 'Wallawalla', 'Mississippi', 'taratantara', 'killeekillee', 'kinnikinnick', 'tangantangan', 'senselessness'
22:17:50 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
22:17:59 <lambdabot> Data.Ord comparing :: Ord a => (b -> a) -> b -> b -> Ordering
22:18:26 <oerjan> i was going to say penanggalan but it has 5
22:19:37 <nooodl> cool, words using 16 different letters: 'superacknowledgment', 'blepharoconjunctivitis', 'pneumoventriculography', 'formaldehydesulphoxylic', 'Pseudolamellibranchiata', 'pseudolamellibranchiate'
22:20:04 <kmc> those aren't in my list :(
22:20:08 <Bike> `thanks biology
22:20:10 <HackEgo> Thanks, biology. Thiology.
22:20:24 <Bike> that's definitely the best script in lambdabot tbh
22:20:35 <kmc> A mosquito was heard to complain / "a chemist has poisoned my brain!" / the cause of his sorrow / was para-dichloro / diphenyltrichloroethane
22:20:35 <nooodl> and it's not even in lambdabot :-)
22:20:52 <Bike> yes it's just that good
22:21:15 <oerjan> careful, elliott might add it
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22:22:18 <nooodl> yes this limerick is quality
22:22:24 <nooodl> (elliott: have you seen my unicode poetry)
22:22:34 <itsy> Freefull: sleepless, longer than lollipop :)
22:22:56 <Bike> man the only chemistry rhyme i can remember is the sulfuric acid one
22:23:09 <nooodl> im taking that as a no??
22:23:22 <nooodl> geez where's the limerick
22:23:26 <Fiora> Bike: little johnny is no more?
22:23:37 <Bike> Fiora: classic y'know
22:23:45 <FreeFull> itsy: We already determined with a program that senselessness fullfills the criteria
22:23:46 <Bike> elliott: snort
22:23:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5018
22:24:12 <nooodl> `pastelogs 2013-06-06.txt:22:13:
22:24:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27428
22:24:36 <kmc> so now @src (.) is wrong? hilarious
22:24:54 <Fiora> Bike: whenever I think of that limerick I think of the poor shirt I destroyed with nitric acid
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> KANGXI RADICAL WHITE
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
22:25:09 <Bike> Fiora: heh. did you see the mouth pippeting thing
22:25:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:25:41 <Bike> Fiora: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/bodyhorrors/2013/03/20/mouth_pipetting/
22:27:31 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/olydVfuzIeXaGKTkVxlJ/ this is the sonnet (ignore the |s they're just character name boundaries)
22:27:50 <nooodl> (make sure to read it in iambic pentameter!)
22:28:09 <elliott> i can't read anything in iambic pentameter
22:28:09 <FreeFull> You should write a program to do it for you now
22:28:14 <itsy> FreeFull: senselessnesses for 15 :-P
22:28:15 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> Does that make me a pro <-- now that makes you willy wonka hth
22:28:20 <Bike> Fiora: yeaaaaaah
22:28:23 <nooodl> it was in the topic for a while
22:28:37 <elliott> nooodl: imo you should get these published
22:28:38 <nooodl> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN | HIRAGANA LETTER YA | SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:28:51 <elliott> it's great seeing the cadence and rhyme of poetry but not getting any meaning out of it
22:29:01 <nooodl> it has the 5-7-5 thing, kireji, season words,
22:29:22 <nooodl> it looks like the easiest one but it's actually the best + hardest one
22:29:28 <Bike> Fiora: this came up in a discussion amongst chem grad students about getting carpal tunnel from pippeting, which is... better
22:30:09 <Bike> i don't think i really 'got' poetry until i read a Brown poem out loud. that was a nice feeling
22:30:44 <kmc> oh i didn't see the sonet
22:31:12 <nooodl> i like the final 6 verses
22:31:34 <nooodl> there's an ascii symbol inside too!
22:32:18 <nooodl> someone: write a script that converts my sonnet into actual unicode symbols
22:32:18 <FreeFull> Try making a poem out of the names of greek letters
22:32:28 <elliott> Bike: wow this mouth pippetting thing is horrifying
22:32:46 <Bike> `thanks chemistry
22:32:47 <HackEgo> Thanks, chemistry. Themistry.
22:32:56 <nooodl> `thanks mouth pippetting
22:32:56 <HackEgo> Thanks, mouth pippetting. Thouth pippetting.
22:33:05 <nooodl> vote: should it th-ify each word
22:33:29 <elliott> nooodl: have you even watched look around you btw....
22:34:12 <elliott> are we talking both series here or just the first one
22:34:26 <nooodl> i think only the first one...?? maybe
22:35:02 <elliott> Long-time mouth pipettor back in the day...best (worst) moment was doling out a ton of bacterial broth into tubes using a 25 mL pipette for several minutes and then transfering bacterial cultures using a 1 mL pipette.
22:35:05 <oerjan> <nooodl> but would you really stress that "NEED"? it's ridic. <-- i think that was meant to indicate the urgency here, as in "only if you _really_ need it"
22:35:06 <elliott> After about a dozen or so sucks on the 25 mL, I wasn't paying enough attention and did a 25-mL suck on the 1 mL pipette...almost inhaled the cotton ball and got a good mouthful of bacterial culture. Salty and a little yeasty.
22:35:17 <Bike> a little yeasty
22:35:25 <nooodl> oerjan, but then why isn't REALLY bold
22:35:51 <nooodl> elliott: i've watched all of season 1 but also vaguely remember watching Computers from season two
22:36:03 <nooodl> (that's the one with the video games right?)
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22:36:24 <oerjan> nooodl: um do you mean "ready"? there is no "really".
22:36:51 <nooodl> oh i thought you were quoting
22:37:09 <nooodl> i've forgotten about this speech bubble hours ago
22:38:42 <oerjan> also it's supposed to be a little theatrical, i'm sure.
22:39:04 <shachaf> is it even worth it watching the second look around you series
22:39:17 <oerjan> these _are_ mad scientists and there minions, after all.
22:39:22 -!- nooodl^ has joined.
22:39:31 <oerjan> (and technically they're nobles, too)
22:39:49 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:40:06 <elliott> it is fantastic, not as good as the first though
22:41:05 <Koen_> hey can you start a letter with "Mrs., Mr"?
22:41:27 <Koen_> when you have no idea of the name or gender of your correspondent
22:41:36 <elliott> how about just use their name
22:42:07 <shachaf> if it's so good why can't you get a region 1 (/ no region) dvd
22:42:28 <Koen_> because I don't know their name elliott
22:42:56 <Koen_> in french we'd go with "Madame, Monsieur, "
22:44:12 <Koen_> what'd you say about my sister?? *headbut*
22:46:12 <Koen_> well I know you'd expect me to put some t there
22:46:23 <Koen_> but I'm not british am I? I only drink coffee
22:47:45 <oerjan> then you should be colombian hth
22:50:15 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:53:54 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched...
22:54:00 <lambdabot> The operator `:' [infixr 5] of a section
22:54:47 <FreeFull> Yeah, I see why that wouldn't work
22:55:05 <oerjan> well it _could_ have worked, haskell just doesn't allow it.
22:56:18 <lambdabot> "hthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthht...
22:56:31 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
22:56:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:59:28 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:59:53 <FreeFull> @pl \x -> if x == a then b else if x == b then a else x
22:59:57 <lambdabot> ap (flip if' b . (a ==)) (join (flip if' a . (b ==)))
22:59:57 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:01:36 <lambdabot> ap (flip if' b . (a ==)) (join (flip if' a . (b ==)))
23:01:36 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:02:53 <FreeFull> @let let swapE a b = map (\x -> if x == a then b else if x == b then a else x )
23:03:08 <oerjan> :t fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b), (b,a)]
23:04:35 <FreeFull> :t \x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b), (b,a)]
23:04:40 <FreeFull> :t \a b x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b), (b,a)]
23:05:27 <FreeFull> @pl \a b -> map $ \x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b),(b,a)]
23:05:31 <lambdabot> ((map $) .) . (flip ((.) . fromMaybe) .) . (flip lookup .) . ap (ap . ((:) .) . (,)) (flip (flip . ((:) .) . flip (,)) [])
23:05:31 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:05:48 <lambdabot> ((map $) .) . (flip ((.) . fromMaybe) .) . (flip lookup .) . ap (ap . ((:) .) . (,)) (flip (flip . ((:) .) . flip (,)) [])
23:05:48 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:05:57 <FreeFull> @pl \a b -> map *\x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b),(b,a)])
23:05:57 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", ".", "`", "!!", operator, "*", "/", "`quot`", "`rem`", "`div`", "`mod`", ":%", "%" or end of input
23:06:02 <FreeFull> @pl \a b -> map (\x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b),(b,a)])
23:06:05 <lambdabot> (map .) . (flip ((.) . fromMaybe) .) . (flip lookup .) . ap (ap . ((:) .) . (,)) (flip (flip . ((:) .) . flip (,)) [])
23:06:05 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:06:16 <oerjan> elliott: is there some bug in @pl's check of whether anything is changing?
23:06:48 <oerjan> or perhaps two rules that cancel each other but keep triggering
23:07:15 <oerjan> i recall this one from before:
23:07:25 <oerjan> @pl (ap id id) (ap id id)
23:07:28 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:08:01 <FreeFull> @pl <CTCP>ACTION licks something<CTCP>
23:08:01 <lambdabot> expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression
23:08:02 <oerjan> that one actually is reasonable as infinitely triggering.
23:08:09 <oerjan> (although it cannot type)
23:08:55 <FreeFull> @pl \1ACTION licks something\1
23:09:00 <FreeFull> @pl "\1ACTION licks something\1"
23:09:02 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
23:09:02 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> b0) -> a0 -> b0
23:09:22 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
23:09:22 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> b0) -> a0 -> b0
23:09:42 <Bike> isn't that exactly the same
23:09:46 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
23:10:23 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
23:10:27 <oerjan> but @pl didn't know about applicatives last i checked
23:10:42 <oerjan> @pl (id <*> id) (id <*> id)
23:11:56 <FreeFull> @pl \x -> x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
23:11:57 <lambdabot> join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join id))))))))))))))))))))))))
23:12:23 <FreeFull> @pl \x -> x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x x
23:12:25 <lambdabot> ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (join id)))))))))))))))))))))) `ap` join id
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23:13:29 <lambdabot> flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . (*)) id) id) id) id
23:13:29 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:13:38 <Bike> looks efficient.
23:13:46 <lambdabot> flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . (*)) id) id) id) id
23:13:47 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:14:06 <lambdabot> flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . (*)) id) id) id) id
23:14:06 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:14:08 <kmc> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pW0fbLrweME/T9hQhjYUINI/AAAAAAAAEGs/CnYKunGnryo/s1600/IMG_5897ac.JPG bizarre fungus
23:14:12 <kmc> http://www.mushroomexpert.com/ileodictyon_gracile.html
23:14:28 <oerjan> Bike: you know because of Doubles and stuff it cannot assume * is associative hth
23:14:44 <oerjan> (not that it would care anyhow)
23:14:47 <kmc> FreeFull: ;P
23:15:11 <lambdabot> flip (ap . (flip .) . ((flip .) .) . (((flip .) .) .) . (((((*) .) .) .) .) . ((((*) .) .) .) . (((*) .) .) . ((*) .) . (*)) id
23:15:11 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:15:27 <FreeFull> @pl \x y -> x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y
23:15:32 <lambdabot> join . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .)
23:15:33 <lambdabot> . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . (*)))))))
23:15:33 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:15:48 <FreeFull> But I did get lambdabot to split it across two lines
23:19:03 <Bike> isn't there some simple way to use @pl by itself
23:19:51 <Bike> i don't know, last time i asked how @pl worked i was answered with "It uses Haskell"
23:19:53 <oerjan> > (curry$(!!13).scanl1(*).cycle.sequence[fst,snd])x y
23:19:55 <lambdabot> x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y
23:25:27 -!- nooodl^ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:27:55 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
23:29:00 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
23:29:46 <oerjan> <Sgeo|work> Was told to relax a bit <-- have you started worrying your coworkers?
23:30:01 <Sgeo_> oerjan, not that I know of, I hope
23:30:15 <Sgeo_> If I can strike fear into one of our vendors though, I would be happy
23:30:30 <oerjan> i recall you mentioned something about "workaholic"
23:30:56 <Sgeo_> I often think about work when I'm at home... then again, I sometimes think about not-work at work
23:31:04 <Sgeo_> But those times I usually feel a bit guilty
23:31:41 <lambdabot> ap (^) (ap (^) (ap (^) (ap (^) (ap (^) (join (^))))))
23:31:56 <lambdabot> liftM2 (.) (^) (ap (^) . liftM2 (.) (^) (ap (^) . ap ((.) . (^)) (flip (^))))
23:31:56 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:32:09 <Bike> wait what is that
23:32:11 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
23:32:13 <FreeFull> Multiplication was best so far
23:32:27 <Bike> haskell is hard.............
23:32:29 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
23:33:06 <oerjan> > ap (*) (ap (*) (ap (*) (join (*)))) x
23:33:08 <FreeFull> Bike: Sure, there are three exponentiation operators
23:33:09 <Sgeo_> pikhq, reviews said the bass was too quiet on these... the bass is much more pronounced than I'm used to
23:33:25 <FreeFull> But you can usually either just use ^ or **
23:33:46 <kmc> Bike: it's all those monads, am i rite
23:33:50 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Some people think bass is about amplitude.
23:34:50 <Bike> > (3 ^ 481891) `mod` 17
23:34:54 <oerjan> ^^ is for the rare case when you are raising something that can be divided but isn't floating-point to a possibly negative integral type
23:36:30 <Bike> so i'm wondering, is the modular exponentiation thing optimized well
23:36:43 <pikhq> > (4 :: Int) ^^ (-2 :: Int)
23:36:44 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
23:37:18 <oerjan> otoh if you define a modular type ^ will work on it efficiently automatically
23:37:51 <oerjan> well, relatively efficient, it won't make use of cycles in the exponent as that would require euler phi-function stuff
23:38:52 <oerjan> and factorizing the modulus, i think
23:39:06 <elliott> GOD BLESS GOD BLESS GOD BLESS
23:39:23 <oerjan> internet, ruining elliott's atheism since 2013
23:39:24 <elliott> i had all but given up hope
23:39:31 <elliott> kmc: my internet went down
23:39:59 <elliott> it is seriously worrying that this actually makes me depressed and panicky
23:40:04 <elliott> it's back now so i don't have to think about that
23:40:17 <kmc> millenials, am i right
23:40:26 <kmc> with their facebooks and their instagrams
23:41:00 <elliott> i wish internet was considered as important as a utility as, e.g. electricity
23:41:09 <Bike> municipal internet is a thing
23:41:12 <elliott> in terms of expected reliability of access etc.
23:41:21 <elliott> Bike: yeah but it isn't really any better is it
23:41:46 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
23:41:57 <Bike> well i just mean, people do think like you're saying
23:42:07 <Bike> not that it's as far as electricity yet in terms of reliability
23:42:21 <Bike> (and of course electricity isn't that reliable anywhere either check your privilege etc etc)
23:42:38 <elliott> um i obviously only care about mysel
23:42:46 <elliott> hey what channel name should i use to test lambdabot note it has to not end in "bot"
23:43:54 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:43:54 <oerjan> who is this bmal and what is this hidden lambdabot they were involved in
23:44:04 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
23:44:12 <elliott> join for fun lambdabot testing time's
23:46:19 <Sgeo_> #bots does not end in bot
23:47:33 <Sgeo_> "Hello Sgeo_, Attempting to change the rules in someone else's environment is a game that cannot be won."
23:47:46 <Sgeo_> Got greeted by that in #bots
23:48:04 <Sgeo_> Reminds me of the Risho-Agoran war... a little
23:48:09 <Sgeo_> I didn't actually ever see it myself
23:48:26 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a529c4c5aa22f00c361b6a591c5a3467/tumblr_moapkcYyQV1rsbiwyo1_400.jpg esoteric animes
23:50:26 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:50:27 -!- sacje has joined.
23:54:28 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to SgeoBot.
23:55:10 <oerjan> i was ever so slightly responsible for the risho-agoran war, i recall.
00:05:22 <oerjan> <Bike> anyway apparently there are crypto startups i didn't know this <-- presumably they're good at hiding?
00:11:20 <kmc> Bike: example?
00:11:35 <Bike> crypto startups/
00:13:41 <Bike> https://crypto.cat/
00:15:06 <Bike> came up in http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/12/4422480/is-prism-good-news-for-cryptographers
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00:20:53 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
00:20:58 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:21:21 <SgeoBot> At least, the notifier I made in another room went off...
00:21:21 <ais523> hey, how did I end up in the `list?
00:21:32 <ais523> not that I mind, but I'm pretty sure I didn't trigger it intentionally
00:21:36 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
00:21:42 <Bike> `pastelogs ais523.*`list
00:21:44 <ais523> ah right, it's historical
00:21:57 <ais523> I triggered an early in-testing version of the `list
00:21:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17695
00:22:15 <Bike> the proto-list
00:22:23 <oerjan> what happens in `list, stays in `list
00:22:50 <ais523> anyway, now SgeoBot has triggered the `list, it will be there eternally
00:23:00 <ais523> btw, I liked the old race condition version
00:23:06 <ais523> because it was harder to figure out, and trollier
00:23:06 <kmc> sgeo is a bot now?
00:23:30 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:23:33 <ais523> the new version fits in better with the idea behind it, at least
00:24:02 <SgeoBot> <Ktalaki> the latest pages hasn't been updated yet. just the most recent page, with an arrow
00:24:09 <shachaf> kmc: i bought _The Power Broker_
00:24:09 <SgeoBot> kmc, yes, Bike uncovered me in #bike
00:24:15 <Bike> hey what's the way to get the file size of a directory recursively on linux
00:24:23 <Bike> i can never remember it and whether it involves du
00:24:31 <ion> What does the file size of a directory mean?
00:24:32 <shachaf> might be some time before i start/finish reading it, though
00:24:34 <ais523> it's du with a couple of options
00:24:36 <SgeoBot> Go to last page, click link from there
00:24:56 <kmc> i usually do du -hs dirname
00:25:25 <ais523> you also might want -l if you want to count each copy of a hard link, rather than the single file that's linked
00:25:33 <ais523> which depends on what you're trying to do
00:25:40 <shachaf> it's spelled du -sh you unpatriotic scum of the earth
00:25:48 <shachaf> i bet you write rm -fr too
00:25:49 <ais523> shachaf: if you use -h rather than -b, then it counts the disk space used
00:25:52 <ais523> not the size of all the files in it
00:25:52 <ion> -sh is not even in alphabetical order.
00:26:05 <ais523> so very small files will be counted as more than the number of bytes in them
00:26:08 <ais523> this is not what Bike asked for
00:27:10 <oerjan> * kmc hands out cyanide pills <-- and this is how humanity will finally evolve the ability not to click ominous links hth
00:27:49 <ais523> oerjan: and use a browser that can't be XSSed attacked through plain text files?
00:28:49 <oerjan> now that's going a bit far.
00:29:13 <coppro> huh, I wasn't expecting an update
00:29:36 <coppro> I suppose it has technically been months
00:31:05 <Bike> over .001 years!!
00:31:24 <Bike> more importantly there are jerkcityhd posts http://24.media.tumblr.com/aef6f8b854fb820eb634748be7289463/tumblr_mo57efs8CY1snfhwio1_1280.png
00:31:30 <kmc> moving to SF feels vaguely self-destructive given how annoyed I am by web/mobile app startup culture
00:31:36 <kmc> but i can't really escape it by being physically far away, either
00:31:42 <kmc> so i might as well be where my friends are
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00:32:31 <Bike> look at it this way: there's good weed
00:33:09 <Bike> http://jerkcityhd.tumblr.com/image/51435557806 and good dicks
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00:33:47 <kmc> i should get a shower curtain that looks like macsbug
00:34:02 <Fiora> caliborn's narration is amazing
00:34:49 <coppro> "DID SHE DRAW HERSELF?? I DON'T SEE HOW THAT'S POSSIBLE. CONSIDERING SHE IS FICTIONAL. AS WELL AS A GIRL."
00:34:58 <Bike> boogle vacantly
00:35:05 <Fiora> "IT TURNS OUT THE MALE CAN LEAVE AFTER ALL. RELATIVELY UNHINDERED. BASICALLY CONTRADICTING THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF THE STORY." is the best
00:35:23 <Bike> i was wondering about the typo route/root but i guess it was intentional or at least fits
00:36:46 <coppro> yeah that one's pretty good
00:59:00 <coppro> oh, there we go, feed updated
00:59:11 <elliott> kmc: i was going to ask if you heard about the private silly valley buses
00:59:17 <elliott> but i think i heard about them from your twitter SO
00:59:25 <elliott> was it silly valley, i think it was
01:00:40 <elliott> Bike: spigot is "super kawaii" in that first one, as they say
01:00:57 <Bike> yes that is what they say
01:07:14 <SgeoBot> Did you try to ==> out of the flash early?
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02:00:27 <kmc> elliott: which? the company shuttles run by Google etc, or the private subscription bus lines in SF?
02:00:50 <kmc> imo there's nothing wrong with the rich paying for luxury public transit, if the basic govt public transit is adequate
02:00:53 <kmc> but it isn't really
02:01:04 <kmc> and the city is too incompetent to e.g. tax the luxury services and fund the public ones
02:01:07 <elliott> kmc: i meant the company ones yeah
02:01:31 <kmc> america desperately needs health care reform to reduce the amount of useless snail mail i receive
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02:08:22 <oerjan> @bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
02:10:11 <oerjan> @bf ,[.,]!Does this work?
02:15:33 <pikhq> @bf ,[.,]!++++++++++.
02:19:35 <elliott> kmc: btw am planning to do god's work re: haskell FAQ
02:21:00 <SgeoBot> shachaf: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way /bin/ls contains a list of files."
02:21:09 <SgeoBot> That is not a quote that first occurred within the past week
02:23:45 <kmc> elliott: good (what though)
02:24:02 <kmc> strings /bin/ls | grep ^/
02:26:37 <elliott> kmc: well, you know @faq...
02:26:55 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
02:27:18 <SgeoBot> @faq Can Haskell fix @faq without outside intervention?
02:27:18 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
02:27:37 <elliott> Bike: http://sprunge.us/WUOh
02:27:58 <Bike> are they serious?
02:28:05 <Bike> well some of those obviously aren't
02:28:17 <Bike> this is terrible
02:28:43 <Bike> "can I use HASKELL to solve problem from ARTIFICAL INTELIGENCE, like DEPTH TREE SEARCH ,or A*, its hardest than same algorithn in C++ with C++ Standart Library data structures, like FIFO/LIFO/LISTs etc. ?" snort
02:28:57 <elliott> Bike: well you see the thing is someone asks a question in #haskell
02:29:06 <Bike> yeah i know how it goes
02:29:06 <elliott> and then no matter what it is if it involves asking whether you can do something, potentially in haskell
02:29:11 <elliott> you put @faq in front of it
02:29:15 <elliott> and you're a master of comedy
02:29:37 <elliott> it was originally because people would ask things like "can haskell do [incredibly basic thing that any real language can do]"
02:29:48 <elliott> but now it's just... kind of annoying
02:29:48 <Bike> "does haskell have i/o"
02:29:50 <Bike> i assume you're going to have @faq link to kmc's first epistle to the nerds
02:30:12 <Bike> and probably you'll get called a nazi for killing the joke or whatever
02:30:12 <elliott> so now people will try to mock questions and inadvertantly link something that might even answer them!!!
02:30:21 <elliott> i love ruining things, goddamn
02:30:46 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
02:32:22 <SgeoBot> Oh. From what you called it, I thought it was going to be some ... thingy
02:32:39 <Bike> "epistle" is just oldspeak for "letter".
02:33:36 <SgeoBot> Some generic thoughts on geekiness or somethign
02:34:10 <Bike> that's kmc's First Testament
02:36:20 <kmc> you ever shred so much stuff that the shredder overheats?
02:36:36 <kmc> well i have, hth
02:36:39 <kmc> (just now)
02:36:42 <kmc> (but also before)
02:36:47 <kmc> still alive
02:37:10 <kmc> "we will bury you" -- shachaf
02:38:19 <shachaf> "we will bury them" -- soviet rhino heavy tank in red alert 2, being ordered to attack
02:38:51 <Bike> are you a tank y/n
02:39:23 <shachaf> that was a good computer game
02:40:36 <shachaf> did you know you can just say /win 39
02:40:57 <shachaf> also you can press alt then press the 39 key
02:41:01 <kmc> shachaf.win++
02:41:18 <shachaf> I was telling elliott about an irssi feature...
02:41:27 <kmc> oh elliott.win++
02:41:47 <kmc> the MIT UAV club flew their UAV into the river...
02:41:52 <kmc> Controlled Flight Into Terrain
02:42:10 <oerjan> uncontrollable air vehicle
02:42:48 <Fiora> I love the phrase "controlled flight into terrain"
02:43:26 <shachaf> works better in #cslounge-trains
02:43:35 <shachaf> if you like trains you should join that channel hth
02:44:49 <SgeoBot> http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/album/ppppppowerup
02:45:02 <kmc> that's the soundtrack to VVVVVV
02:45:12 <kmc> the game as well
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02:45:29 <kmc> not as such, but possibly an 8bit synth approximation thereof
02:45:32 <Bike> the game got a bit memorizey
02:45:38 <shachaf> the game is about dying isn't it
02:45:40 <SgeoBot> kmc, no, it's remixed versions of the soundtrack to VVVVVV
02:45:44 <kmc> SgeoBot: oh
02:46:08 <SgeoBot> But the actual soundtrack is awesome too
02:46:32 <shachaf> should i go to the "they might be giants performance" on friday in sf
02:47:48 <SgeoBot> shachaf, you should probably go listen to PPPPPP first
02:49:31 <Bike> Original Soundtracks 1 is the best soundtrack hth
02:50:59 <elliott> Bike: i was just thinking about that album the other day wtf (i haven't even heard it)
02:51:43 <shachaf> hey i think i have that sound track as part of humble blah blah don't i
02:52:34 <SgeoBot> I know VVVVVV itself was in a Humble Bundle
02:53:48 <Bike> elliott: have you seen Ghost in the Shell
02:53:50 <kmc> Bike: i don't recall memorization in that game
02:54:01 <kmc> it was mostly precise timing for jumps
02:54:16 <kmc> i normally hate jumping puzzles but VVVVVV did a really good job eliminating the delay before you can try again
02:54:29 <shachaf> kmc: braid did the best job of that
02:54:38 <kmc> that's really what I hate, 30 seconds of tedious walking around until you can get to the jump and fail again
02:54:38 <Fiora> I remember seeing a bit of a let's play linked on youtube where someone spent like 30+ minutes on one 10 second segment
02:54:41 <kmc> shachaf: true
02:54:46 <kmc> braid is a good game also
02:54:58 <Bike> Fiora: the joke is, i know exactly which segment
02:55:01 <shachaf> imo seeing the braid mechanic not as a central puzzle mechanic but just a convenient continuous undo thing would be nice
02:55:03 <Bike> kmc: it got pretty rote for me
02:55:04 <Fiora> Bike: "doing things the hard way"?
02:55:11 <Fiora> shachaf: prince of persia
02:55:27 <Bike> i forget if i ever actually got that one
02:55:33 <SgeoBot> What about veni vedi veci... oh same thing I guess
02:55:43 <shachaf> Fiora: I've only played one Prince of Persia game. It was a long time ago. It didn't have that.
02:55:52 <shachaf> But I hear there's more than one game so maybe others do.
02:55:54 <Fiora> in prince of persia when you fell or something it let you rewind I think?
02:55:58 <Fiora> like that was one of the things it did
02:56:03 <elliott> i like how i have 2834923984234 humble bundles
02:56:05 <elliott> and have played like 3 of the games
02:56:14 <Bike> conspicuous consumption hth
02:56:40 <shachaf> the one i played looked a lot like http://toucharcade.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/130503.jpeg
02:56:53 <Fiora> I was thinking Sands of Time
02:57:04 <shachaf> it was on a cd of 100 shareware games
02:57:21 <Bike> maybe you should play a Prince of Persia game tha'ts less bad.
02:57:37 <shachaf> like jill of the jungle. who remembers jill of the jungle. i do
02:57:38 <Bike> elliott: anyway the point is, listen to "One Minute Warning"
02:58:05 <Bike> i like the braid guy's essays more than his games.
02:58:08 <elliott> Bike: i'll need a one minute warning first 8) :D : D :D: D :LD:L:LD: L:D :K <3k0 i3-0 it0-hroph;lg ,bv.
02:58:12 <elliott> zjksdxzlsekhfa5w87veyisudgkxclx\'
02:58:16 <Fiora> has he done anything since braid?
02:58:35 <Bike> i know he was planning something
02:58:40 <Bike> but who knows with these artsy types
02:58:43 <Fiora> I know he's doing a next-gen console thing on PS4
02:58:57 <Bike> i think i mostly liked braid for the art because i like the artist
02:58:59 <shachaf> SgeoBot: this was nice until the drum-alikes started :'(
02:59:11 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witness_(2013_video_game)
02:59:13 <Bike> maybe i'm just too fly-like to do puzzley games
02:59:31 <SgeoBot> shachaf, PPPPPP or the remix?
02:59:32 <Fiora> braid was definitely one of those games where like, I could beat my head for 30 minutes on a puzzle
02:59:36 <Fiora> and then look up the answer on youtubue
02:59:38 <SgeoBot> Because I cannot vouch for the quality of the remixes
02:59:40 <Fiora> and in retrospect wow that was so obvious
02:59:44 <SgeoBot> Just for the quality of PPPPPP
03:00:16 <shachaf> SgeoBot: I listened to whatever you linked in here.
03:00:20 <Bike> «Blow says he started to "check out" from his parents as early as elementary school. His mother was an ex-nun who constantly reminded her son about the imminent coming of Jesus and would later disown Blow's older sister for coming out as a lesbian in the mid-80s. Blow's father worked all day as a defense contractor and would come home to be alone in his den, where children were not allowed.» wow
03:00:21 <shachaf> http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/album/ppppppowerup
03:00:52 <SgeoBot> shachaf, ok then. This is the original: http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/album/pppppp-the-vvvvvv-soundtrack
03:01:40 <Bike> i didn't even know "ex-nun" was a thing you could be
03:01:41 <shachaf> SgeoBot: Still has drumalikes. :-(
03:01:56 <Koen_> did http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/frc/index.html just stop existing all of a sudden :(
03:02:15 <Bike> is that about engels
03:02:20 <SgeoBot> Tada: http://sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/
03:02:28 <Koen_> thank you mister bot
03:02:40 <Bike> dammit it's some nerd shit isn't it
03:02:44 <elliott> Bike: this is good i should listen to the album (i make a point of hating U2 so this is not easy to admit)
03:03:05 <SgeoBot> Bike, it branched off a game of nomic
03:03:34 <shachaf> SgeoBot: i had to turn it off because it felt like it was beating my brain in until i would die
03:03:34 <Bike> elliott: it's ok i hate them too. Eno also worked on it though and I don't hate him.
03:03:55 <Bike> good rationalization, imo
03:04:36 <elliott> eno also worked with coldplay
03:04:57 <Bike> i kinda like coldplay "sorry"
03:05:18 <shachaf> i don't know what coldplay is "sorry"
03:05:27 <Bike> a band with drums
03:05:44 <shachaf> it's not paranoia when they're really out to get you hth
03:05:44 <Bike> you just said you didn't!
03:05:54 <elliott> shachaf: btw prior warning the they might be giants performance will involve drums hth
03:06:06 <SgeoBot> shachaf, are you the master?
03:06:11 <shachaf> elliott: sometimes they don't......sometimes they do i don't know
03:06:20 <shachaf> my sister is going today in seattle
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04:20:31 <kmc> shredding done, now using the shredder as a footrest
04:21:35 <kmc> coldplay is mediocre but for the most part not actively offensive
04:22:01 <oerjan> don't get your feet in the shredder hth
04:22:12 <Bike> "Al-Yafi was a well-known and prolific contributor to top-tier Al-Qaida forums with over 30,000 postings."
04:22:30 <kmc> btw the start-up sound of the OLPC XO-1 is the first four notes of "Beautiful Day" by U2
04:22:33 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH7GOupMDrU
04:22:47 <kmc> it's hard to tell with the internal speaker because it picks out weird harmonics
04:22:56 <kmc> but it's super obvious if you plug in headphones
04:23:39 <SgeoBot> Someone just offered to pay my admission fee to the upcoming Rebol conference if I came
04:23:56 <Bike> do you have to fly
04:24:05 <kmc> foot status: unshredded
04:24:05 <shachaf> > hi (hi 5 (+) 3) (*) (hi 4 (+) 4) -- infix without infix!
04:24:26 <kmc> let hi x f y = f x y -- ?
04:24:35 <SgeoBot> Bike, it's in a different country...
04:24:35 <elliott> you don't even get the associativityi ejrirtproperty
04:24:37 <kmc> :t flip flip
04:24:42 <Bike> is it a good country
04:24:55 <shachaf> kmc: i'm going to need a twitter account for your foot status asap plz thx hth
04:24:58 <kmc> elliott: did you have a stroke
04:24:59 <Bike> pop pop watching motherfuckers drop
04:25:07 <kmc> @miuaf_foot_ebooks
04:25:29 <elliott> kmc: i'm just not built for this world and its complete sentences
04:25:30 <kmc> elliott: might want to get that cehcked out
04:25:36 <kmc> get some of that NHS
04:26:00 <shachaf> still waiting for zzo38_ebooks
04:26:41 <Bike> ok you all need to help me out here
04:26:54 <Bike> i need to understand the sentence: "Al-Jaza'iri was a jihadi web forum users who was well known and well-respected in the online extremist community."
04:27:02 <Bike> what is a jihadist forum like. give me ideas
04:27:12 <Bike> how can one be respected on an internet it doesn't make sense
04:28:04 <elliott> gonna have to come to terms with that Bike
04:28:14 <Bike> death to the west?
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04:28:18 <Bike> shit i'll have to grow a beard
04:28:21 <Bike> that's gonna suck
04:28:23 <kmc> i'm amused because obviously the jihadi web forums will have the same stupid web forum drama as every other web forum
04:28:29 <kmc> and i'm just amused thinking about this
04:28:34 <Fiora> you're friends with a woman, I don't think they allow that
04:28:56 <Bike> that's true, a lot of them are engineering students.
04:29:13 <Bike> kmc: "itt: infidels defending their terrible alcohol decisions"
04:29:17 <shachaf> why would you engineer a student
04:29:23 <elliott> kmc: arguments over how large the burning america flag image signatures should be allowed to be
04:29:33 <elliott> p. sure this is exactly what jihadi web forums must be like
04:29:35 <kmc> (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
04:29:51 <Bike> i just got back from the tunisian revolt AmA #yolo
04:30:38 <Bike> actually yeah now that you mention it none of the listed dead are women
04:30:43 <Bike> al-nusra needs to get its act together imo
04:30:52 <elliott> jihadi forum where they have some nutter going on about how 9/11 was an inside job but the angle is mostly that it's really disappointing that al qaida couldn't pull it off themselves
04:31:13 <elliott> i'm definitely 100% terrorism expert, trust me
04:31:30 <Bike> the people who wrote this report i'm reading presumably read these forums regularly
04:31:33 <Bike> i wonder if i can like, ask
04:31:39 <Bike> "jihadist 4chan report please"
04:33:05 <elliott> yo Bike why am i not asleep yet; checkmate
04:33:24 <kmc> http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2013/06/upcoming-revelations-speculations.html am i allowed to be annoyed at an article for being baseless speculation when it has 'speculation' in the title
04:33:41 <Bike> elliott: you're a fucking heathen hth
04:33:56 <Bike> kmc: haha this is bad
04:35:34 <elliott> Microsoft bought Skype for $8 billion dollars. It doesn't seem to make sense. Now that we see Skype and Microsoft prominently mentioned in the PRISM documents, we may find out that this entire thing was a plot by the NSA.
04:35:59 <elliott> "nsa made microsoft buy skype" best conspiracy theory
04:36:36 <kmc> Four billion wordwide population - all living - have a Computer God Containment Policy Brain Bank Brain, a real brain, in the Brain Bank Cities on the far side of the moon we never see.
04:36:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
04:37:01 <Bike> http://jihadology.net/2010/10/20/an%E1%B9%A3ar-al-mujahidin-arabic-forum-adds-a-section-for-women/ this is going well.
04:37:05 <elliott> For the record, I have not yet received an NSL (National Security Letter). Crypto guy Matt Blaze irregularly points this out on twitter as a neat trick. An NSL forbids a person from disclosing that they received the NSL. Thus, while you can't confirm you've received one, you can simply stop posting that you haven't.
04:37:10 <elliott> man i don't fucking believe this works
04:37:30 <Bike> because only nerds would do that, for one
04:37:30 <elliott> rsync.net do it too, post a "we haven't had to blah blah blah" thing regularly
04:37:53 <elliott> is there any chance whatsoever that ceasing to publish such notices wouldn't be considered an admission that it happened in court
04:38:07 <Bike> http://jihadology.net/2010/10/26/arabic-language-forum-ash-shamukh-al-islamiyyah-announced-the-creation-of-the-shamukh-college-of-islamic-sciences/ Any student that does not attend a lecture three times or more without having permission from the college will be terminated from the program.
04:38:23 <kmc> seems like a good way to get a free one way flight to eastern europe
04:38:35 <Bike> Moreover, al-Falluja administrators urged members and visitors on the forums “to take caution and wariness in corresponding via private messages…[and] to use Asrar al-Mujahideen [the Mujahideen Secrets] software and to not avoid this matter.” The aforementioned software, developed by al-Ekhlaas Forum, is a coded-software that enables forum members to communicate directly with Al-Qaida’s offshoot in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP).
04:39:08 <kmc> http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/audio/Gangster%20Computer%20God%20Worldwide%20Secret%20Containment%20Policy.mp3
04:39:29 <Bike> elliott: nerds are the saddest lawyers.
04:39:41 <elliott> kmc: my weakness: filenames like that
04:41:16 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/it-sure-has-been-a-while-since-the-tonight-show-di,31267/
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04:41:25 <elliott> People are asking if Edward Snowden (the NSA leaker) is libertarian. My answer is "probably".
04:41:28 <elliott> We libertarians have a sort of "gaydar", we can spot fellow libertarians even when they say things that are completely neutral and non-political. Back in the day, I was in the "libertarian-closet", and tried to hide my wacky feelings for limited government. I tried to talk and act like everyone else. However, other libertarians could tell my true self. I never understood how that was possible.
04:41:34 <elliott> Now that I've gotten older, I've discovered that I've got libradar, too, and can often recognize my fellow wackos. I can't say consciously what makes me feel that Snowden is libertarian, but I get that vibe from him.
04:41:38 <elliott> pppdsfdpogshjfgkdk.fdg;'lsfk
04:41:45 <Bike> ok well he probably is actually a libertarian
04:41:47 <Bike> but: that's great
04:41:59 <elliott> We libertarians have a sort of "gaydar"
04:43:05 * kmc ponders libertarianism
04:43:57 <Bike> hayek is kind of interesting, libertarian-wise
04:44:00 <kmc> why don't i hear more libertarians trying to loudly differentiate themselves from the privilege-denying fuckwit contingent
04:44:11 <kmc> is it because i don't listen to anyone who identifies as a libertarian
04:44:13 <Bike> i have a book by a market socialist whose thesis advisor was Hayek
04:44:21 <Bike> i feel that this may have been sort of awkward?
04:44:56 <Bike> kmc: well among the obvious answers, how about that they actually believe that 2-axis politics crap
04:45:05 <kmc> if you believe in limited government but you also donate 50% of your income to help the less fortunate, that might be respectable?
04:45:16 <kmc> it's not like current governments do a great job of helping poor people
04:45:37 <Bike> i work in a private enterprise that feeds poor people
04:45:39 <elliott> synergising recent topics of: NSA, they might be giants: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z32-eLOoAUU
04:45:41 <Bike> where's the help ron paul??
04:46:03 <Bike> (btw because i'm still thinking about it they're gonna cut billions from SNAP and aaaaah)
04:46:30 <Bike> elliott: Left & Right is the old tried & effective tactic of " Hegalian Dialectic. " either one you chose-the government wins. btw- in ancient greek or hebrew, Government means mind control. governing the mind,when you study Truth Etymology. you may wish to Check out max Igan's website TheCrowHosue,his podcasts on yt are under ThecrowHouse as well, if your interested in solutions- he lists MANY. & shares the hidden information that is ...
04:46:36 <Bike> ... going on -that the powers that be,hide from the masses.
04:46:45 <kmc> v. well written & persuasive
04:46:46 <elliott> yes i forgot to note the other bonus of clicking that link in that the comments are now predictably nuts
04:47:19 <Bike> http://www.thenation.com/blog/174753/sword-drops-food-stamps, specifically
04:47:21 <Bike> i am not excite
04:47:23 <kmc> Truth Etymology
04:47:41 <kmc> is that some sovereign citizen shit
04:47:48 <elliott> 05:44:56 <Bike> kmc: well among the obvious answers, how about that they actually believe that 2-axis politics crap
04:47:51 <elliott> 05:46:30 <Bike> elliott: Left & Right is the old tried & effective tactic of " Hegalian Dialectic. "
04:48:33 <Bike> elliott: you said you were asleep and now you're not asleep!!
04:48:48 <elliott> when did i say i was asleep
04:48:53 <Bike> anyway this is especially annoying because SNAP is one of the least wasteful government programs that exist they have graphs for this
04:48:56 <Bike> elliott: i dunno like a week ago
04:49:45 <kmc> QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR
04:49:50 * Bike lastlog's elliott.*sleep, discovers just how often you fucking ask
04:50:04 <Bike> 20:37 < elliott> i am going to sleep
04:50:14 <elliott> how long is your fuckin lastlog
04:50:31 <elliott> so i can set it to be that long
04:50:45 <Bike> 13:18 < elliott> i sleep now. i can only pray gregor's voice survives the brutal night
04:51:04 <Bike> this was in april. that's barely two months ago!!
04:51:25 <elliott> how does your lastlog go back to fucking april
04:51:29 <Bike> 22:33 < elliott> um i dont sleep Bike you have a history of lack of history
04:51:39 <Bike> that was march btw
04:51:48 <elliott> come on what do i have to fix in my irssi
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04:53:37 <Bike> it's not even my dick yet
04:54:15 <kmc> suddenly, dicks
04:54:35 <elliott> when will it be your dick Bike
04:54:47 <Bike> never. i've taken a vow.
04:57:01 <elliott> it's really annoying how early it gets light
04:57:14 <kmc> i prefer it to the early darkness in the winter
04:57:22 <kmc> you should get black-out shades
04:57:39 <elliott> kmc: agree re: early darkness
04:57:40 <kmc> in college I slept under my desk in a kind of sleeping pod / coffin with thick curtains and wood walls
04:57:50 <kmc> this was good if my roomates were playing loud music or having sex etc
04:57:55 <elliott> well, the curtains are open right now because i didn't bother to shut them :V
04:58:04 <kmc> try being less lazy
04:58:04 <elliott> which i am sure correlates with me sleeping worse
04:58:10 <elliott> kmc: i think that is the hardest thing
04:58:38 <elliott> anyway the perfect season is one where it gets bright late and dark late, imo someone should invent it
04:59:04 <kmc> that's called 'shifting your sleep schedule'
04:59:36 <elliott> it's everyone else that should shift
04:59:46 <HackEgo> 116) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
04:59:48 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a97d40d2ad1395c4d197e5724c80121a/tumblr_mob8t8kQuB1r8se0eo1_1280.jpg pictured: kmc
04:59:56 <elliott> that was re: 116 not re: Bike
04:59:59 <Bike> you're the bird
05:00:00 <Fiora> kmc: I know someone who did that kind of thing too, moved their mattress from above their desk to under their desk
05:00:07 <Fiora> I'd probably be claustrophobic but it sounds really nice
05:00:09 <kmc> yeah it was reasonably popular
05:00:13 <kmc> you get more storage space too
05:00:29 <Fiora> our dorm was the quiet dorm, and it had a thing people jokingly called the intercom
05:00:34 <Fiora> which was that sound travelled really really well
05:00:35 <Bike> great now i'm going to be thinking about this when i look at dorms on monday
05:00:40 <elliott> feel like this would be a good time to make a monqy sleeping on the floor joke but unfortunately he isn't here
05:00:40 <Fiora> so like if you made a lot of noise people would come breathe down your neck
05:00:42 <Fiora> so it was usually super quiet
05:00:46 <Bike> what is the sleepabilitiy of this desk
05:01:24 <elliott> Fiora: i think that would make me paranoid to make any sound whatsoever
05:01:28 <kmc> we also had some people reorganize rooms by function
05:01:34 <kmc> a quiet room with a bunch of beds, a socializing room
05:01:44 <Fiora> well people mainly just didn't talk much in their rooms
05:01:46 <kmc> Epsilon Theta at MIT takes this to the extreme
05:01:56 <Bike> collectivize the dorms
05:01:59 <kmc> they all sleep in a big room in the attic which is quiet and dark 24/7
05:02:27 <Bike> ok i'm organizing pdfs; what folder should i put a document about jihadist nerds dying in syria in
05:02:47 <elliott> Bike: wow good horse_ebooks, is that a recent one
05:02:53 <elliott> i "lost track" of horse_ebooks
05:02:59 <Bike> i have no idea
05:03:25 <kmc> well i assume the folders are Chaos, Discord, Confusion, Bureaucracy, Aftermath in which case I would say Chaos
05:03:27 <Fiora> geez, everyone in the dorm sleeping together?
05:03:49 <elliott> https://twitter.com/Horse_ebooks/status/344933381060038656 https://twitter.com/Horse_ebooks/status/344949349907849216 still goin wrong i see
05:03:53 * Bike moves to Psychology (burn)
05:04:02 <kmc> well typed horse ebooks do not go wrong
05:04:23 <elliott> kmc: i think the badly-typed ones are usually funnier
05:04:54 <kmc> "There was always a danger of side effects . Sometimes the side effects could be serious. Danger of"
05:05:42 <elliott> todo: add a markov chain generator to lambdabot
05:05:51 <Bike> i really need to get mendeley or something ugh
05:06:00 <kmc> FOLDING FOLDING FOLDING FOLOING FOLDING FOLDING FOLDING FOLDING FOLDING FOLDING FOLOING FOLOING BOXBOARDS B0X60ARDS BOXBOARDS BOXBOARDS
05:06:01 <Bike> i have so much crap in a "Computer Engineering" folder
05:06:36 <elliott> Bike: yo if you figure out a good thing to dump pdfs into let me know
05:06:40 <elliott> i forget why i decided not to try mendeley
05:06:49 <Bike> i think anyone reading the titles of all these papers would conclude that i was compulsive
05:07:00 <kmc> my friend who proofreads / typesets papers says that mendeley kind of sucks but she doesn't know a better alternative
05:07:09 <Bike> elliott: write one in haskell
05:07:19 <elliott> my requirements: metadata, it fills in the metadata for me from a citeseerx link or something, tagging, full body text search
05:07:28 <Bike> yeah that sounds pretty nice
05:07:59 <Bike> i suddenly forget if citeseerx covers more than CS
05:08:10 <elliott> also it should have a magic button to turn awful .ps files without selectable text into .pdfs with selectable text
05:08:14 <Bike> maybe i'm thinking of ACM
05:08:25 <Bike> god i have so many pdfs without selectable text
05:08:31 <Bike> or worse, badly selectable text
05:08:33 <elliott> citeseerx does all sciences I think?
05:08:42 <kmc> even the dismal science?
05:08:43 <Bike> yeah looks like it
05:08:43 <elliott> Bike: i like the ones where it's badly auto-OCR'd behidn the scenes
05:08:46 <elliott> so you copy it and it's just fuck
05:09:16 <Bike> sometimes it's just like, fuck you i'll type up this whole fucking 19th century book on bugs for you if it means i can paste without getting insane garbage
05:09:33 <Bike> itt nerdy as shit
05:10:22 <elliott> what's anything written before the 60s
05:10:51 <elliott> and you're going to say babbage or something
05:10:54 <elliott> and i'm oignoi tjoeri jdgk sgnfkjslztps`df
05:10:55 <elliott> [zpcX}|VLkz;fsmknorhtJGKPSDVX|:CL/ko
05:11:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: l: not found
05:11:07 <Bike> I actually tried to read Babbage's Bridgewater treatise once.
05:11:14 <Bike> (it was boring)
05:11:25 <Bike> I have sometimes got the shitty OCR problem with like 60s papers on GC or shit like that
05:11:35 <elliott> does anyone mind if i flood the channel with say 5-10 lines
05:11:39 <elliott> of lambdabot command listing
05:11:42 <Bike> didn't you already do that
05:11:43 <elliott> it would be emotionally helpful
05:11:49 <Bike> well you're asleep so
05:11:51 <Bike> i say go for it
05:11:53 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . 1337 ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s bf bid botsnack bouvier brain bug check choice-add choose cide clear-messages clear-topic compose define dequeue-topic
05:11:54 <lambdabot> devils dice dict-help djinn djinn-add djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune free freshname gazetteer
05:11:54 <lambdabot> get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage haskellers help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma karma+ karma-
05:11:54 <lambdabot> karma-all keal kind l33t learn leave leet let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply messages messages-loud messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
05:11:54 <lambdabot> palomer part paste ping pinky pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pop-topic pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices push-
05:11:57 <lambdabot> topic queue-topic quit quote rc reconnect remember repoint roll run sequence set-topic shift-topic shootout show slap smack spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker
05:11:59 <lambdabot> time todo todo-add todo-delete type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless unshift-topic uptime url v vera version vote what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
05:12:08 <lambdabot> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
05:12:13 <elliott> really glad yow gets its own line
05:12:14 <Bike> oh i was thinking shooting
05:12:35 <lambdabot> Local time for Bike is Wed Jun 12 22:12:34 2013
05:12:36 <lambdabot> time <user>. Print a user's local time. User's client must support ctcp pings.
05:12:56 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Jun 13 06:12:50 2013
05:13:00 <Bike> it just CTCP TIMEs you
05:13:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Jun 13 06:13:23 2013
05:13:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Jun 13 06:13:39 2013
05:13:43 <Bike> wait is this like asyncronous.
05:13:53 <Bike> that makes no fucking sense i love it
05:13:58 <elliott> maps the ctcp reply to a privmsg
05:14:01 <elliott> with @localtime-reply in front of it
05:14:07 <Bike> @localtime-reply elliott
05:14:14 <Bike> i don't get it oh no
05:14:33 <Bike> i wonder why i have this paper on tobacco viruses
05:15:06 <kmc> they are hella studied viruses aren't they
05:15:13 <Bike> "Evolution is the process by which the genetic structure of the population of an organism changes with time." well i guess whoever wrote this was really fucking desperate to fill out the abstract
05:15:17 <Bike> yeah, the first in fact
05:15:25 <Bike> whatshername who invented DNA studied them, too! it's cool
05:15:59 <Fiora> Filler is the process by which the abstract of a paper is progressively padded with redundant information which the intended audience of the paper is already aware of.
05:16:09 <Bike> yeah. yeah, basically
05:16:10 <kmc> weird how many important plants are in Solanaceae
05:16:17 <Bike> wasn't something like that in SIGBOVIK
05:16:23 <kmc> tomatos and potatoes and tobacco and DEADLY NIGHTSHADE
05:16:49 <Bike> well you know what they say, large genera have diverse speciation
05:16:53 <elliott> i'm reminded of irl tomacco
05:17:01 <kmc> do they say that
05:17:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Products_produced_from_The_Simpsons#Tomacco
05:17:38 <Bike> kmc: it's in origin of species actually, it's pretty cool. darwin's like "yo without evolution how do you explain that big genera have more varieties" and the creationists were like "uhhhhhh"
05:18:17 <Bike> "E-I-E-I-(Annoyed Grunt)" heh i forgot that was the title
05:19:13 <kmc> that reminds me also that the genus Clostridium is responsible for botulism, tetanus, terrifying antibiotic-resistant hospital diarrhea disease, and salt-rising bread
05:19:27 <Bike> elliott: probably not helping tomaccoism: the virus is actually called Tobamovirus
05:19:33 <kmc> and gas gangrene
05:19:42 <Bike> is that gangrene you get from gasoline
05:19:42 <kmc> and 'pulpy kidney disease' in sheep
05:19:47 <kmc> no, good guess tho
05:19:50 <Bike> ok uh that sounds worse than the rest
05:19:59 <kmc> if you're a sheep..............
05:20:01 <Bike> i don't... i don't want pulpy kidneys
05:20:22 <kmc> i don't think you want gas gangrene or turbodiarrhea either
05:20:24 <Bike> [that latin word i forget that means spread of disease between animal species] kmc!!
05:20:31 <Bike> elliott: yes or i'll infect you with MRSA
05:20:53 <Bike> it still exists hth
05:20:57 <kmc> memory resident software application
05:20:58 <elliott> i also remember foot and mouth
05:21:13 <kmc> what about mad cow
05:21:33 <elliott> i think that was "before my time"?
05:21:34 <kmc> they have totally drug-resistant TB in india now
05:21:35 <Bike> only true 90s kids remember rinderpest
05:21:55 <kmc> cool, eradicated
05:22:07 <Bike> it's "the other eradicated disease" yeah
05:22:27 <kmc> i read http://www.amazon.com/dp/0312427654 recently
05:22:29 <Bike> i think next on the list is some kind of worm i forget
05:22:51 <Bike> kind of a shame because Dracunculiasis is a pretty boss name
05:22:56 <kmc> he talks about the campaign to eradicate polio and how they are always very close but it's almost impossible to finish the job
05:23:09 <Bike> ugh that just reminds me of reports from pakistan
05:23:26 <elliott> imo eradicate colds and headaches next twh
05:23:28 <kmc> if a kid gets polio in an area where it's uncommon, the CDC sends like thousands of people there overnight to vaccinate everyone
05:23:42 <Bike> colds kill half a million people every year but aren't on the list
05:23:44 <Bike> such is disease
05:23:56 <kmc> yeah well cars kill several million people every year
05:24:02 <elliott> i mean for selfish reasons
05:24:09 <elliott> i mean, i've never had rinderpest, personally.
05:24:18 <Fiora> I don't think you're a cow
05:24:19 <Bike> eradicate disease in elliotts
05:24:27 <Bike> Fiora: you'd be surprised!
05:24:37 <shachaf> the monomorphism restriction is a good way to avoid polio
05:24:46 * elliott is a perfectly spherical cow
05:25:03 <kmc> apt-get moo
05:25:04 <Bike> it's cool how i'd never heard of two of the next three diseases to be eliminated and i'll never get them
05:25:11 <shachaf> copumpkin: hey kmc is infringing on your trademark
05:25:15 <Bike> wow yaws looks... really nasty, though
05:25:21 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yaws_01.jpg warning: ew
05:25:34 <elliott> i'm about to sleep so i don't need awful mental images
05:25:44 <Bike> not as ew as that picture of the guy with the necrotic leg
05:27:20 <Bike> oh now i'm pissed about malaria vaccination again help
05:27:42 <kmc> what about it
05:27:48 <kmc> is that a thing?
05:27:59 <Bike> er, measles i meant
05:28:10 <Bike> malaria is just bad all by itself
05:28:21 <Bike> coppro: do you know about "the controversy"
05:28:27 <kmc> oh was shachaf's statement an extremly oblique pun on "MMR"?
05:28:57 <Bike> well some people think measles vaccines cause autism and so don't get them and then get measles
05:29:22 <Bike> anyway did you know there's such a thing as infectious blindness (in humans). elliott: do you need this to sleep
05:29:26 <shachaf> hey kmc why do books have forewords that are added years after the book is written and are only interesting to people who have already read the book
05:29:34 <shachaf> why not just put it at the end of the book
05:29:37 <coppro> Bike: yes, elliott needs infectious blindness to sleep
05:29:48 <Bike> shachaf: those suck
05:30:08 <Bike> especially for real old novels where they explain the whole plot.
05:30:15 <coppro> more like boreword amirite
05:31:58 <Fiora> maybe they should be postwords?
05:32:19 <Bike> my copy of On the Road has a few of those.
05:32:33 <coppro> is it better than The Road?
05:32:35 <coppro> because that book is shit
05:33:09 <coppro> "Why are we on a road?" "Because we have to be." "Okay." "Okay." "Okay."
05:33:14 <coppro> there, I have summarized the entire book
05:33:20 <kmc> waiting for godot's road
05:33:36 <Bike> i haven't read The Road but I stopped reading On the Road because I got bored of him going on about random sex with run-on sentences
05:33:49 <coppro> that doesn't sound quite as bad
05:33:51 <kmc> how do you even have sex with a sentence
05:34:01 <Bike> i dunno but he managed
05:34:06 <Bike> (my copy is pre-editing. it shows)
05:34:31 <kmc> fucking tweakers
05:34:38 <shachaf> hey Bike did you read three men in a boat
05:35:02 <shachaf> that's a book about a road.......made of water
05:35:20 <Bike> that reminds me that the Solaris film is apparently freely watchable
05:35:25 <Bike> except I don't understand Russian.
05:35:37 <shachaf> kmc can confirm that _Three Men in a Boat_ is good.
05:35:51 <Bike> @google three men in a boat
05:35:51 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Men_in_a_Boat
05:35:51 <lambdabot> Title: Three Men in a Boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
05:36:18 <Bike> hm, looks good.
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05:36:45 <shachaf> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/308/308-h/308-h.htm
05:37:25 <Bike> oh, that's convenient.
05:37:33 <Bike> guess i'll read it once i sort these pdfs.
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06:01:22 <shachaf> imo http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2013/write_some_fucking_code.html is a bit unfair to the whole idea of reading about things you're learning about
06:02:29 <Bike> ha, ha, sexually oriented jokes
06:03:24 <Bike> i thought monad tutorials were a thing that's so stale that every meta-commentary on meta-commentaries about them is already just as stale, etc
06:03:42 <kmc> i wonder if this person has seen the burrito article
06:04:43 <shachaf> kmc: that reminds me should i watch _Brazil_
06:04:51 <Bike> should i put this paper about the grandmother hypothesis under Bio/ or Anthro/
06:05:02 <kmc> yes shachaf
06:05:04 <Bike> i guess both the writers are anthropologists good enough
06:05:37 <Bike> wow why do i have a chinual page
06:08:54 <shachaf> kmc: so when are you going to move to ca
06:09:05 <kmc> probably a few days before
06:09:13 <kmc> talking to some people now about maybe living at their house
06:09:28 <kmc> mozilla offered me a really sweet deal including relocation expenses
06:09:56 <kmc> i still don't understand why they have so much money.....
06:10:25 <kmc> i guess when 20% of the world uses your browser, and a browser is one of the most important programs, you can make a lot of money from it
06:10:37 <Bike> I thought you said they were paid off by Google.
06:10:50 <Bike> wow, i have a pdf reverse engineering final fantasy seven.
06:10:51 <shachaf> google has a lot more money hth
06:10:52 <kmc> i don't understand intuitively how they can make so much from that
06:11:02 <kmc> but I haven't like sat down and tried to crunch the numbers
06:11:27 <Bike> well intuitively speaking, google has basically infinite money
06:11:32 <kmc> also they don't have a mandate to pay dividends or grow in an aggressive shortsighted way
06:11:43 <Bike> oh, mozilla isn't publically traded?
06:11:49 <kmc> no, they are a non-profit foundation
06:12:14 <kmc> well technically Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit that owns the taxable Mozilla Corporation
06:12:25 <kmc> it's a kind of odd structure
06:12:27 <shachaf> hey if you work at mozilla in sf maybe you'll meet $REDACTED
06:12:31 <kmc> but not as sketchy as IKEA!
06:12:38 <shachaf> never mind i shouldn't talk about it
06:12:48 <Bike> well that's not ominous at all
06:12:52 <kmc> i remember someone tried to draw the corporate ownership chart at my finance job and it was wack
06:12:58 <kmc> like every trading strategy had its own LLC
06:13:05 <kmc> that were owned in some kind of complicated tree
06:13:14 <kmc> and then my actual employer was just contracting services to them
06:13:23 <Bike> that's some Accelerando shit
06:13:24 <kmc> except my actual ACTUAL employer was a HR services provider
06:13:29 <kmc> yeah exactly
06:13:52 <kmc> i read Accelerando a few months before I started looking for jobs out of college, and I have to say that I took the HFT job in large part because of that book
06:13:52 <Bike> np-complete problems of the future: find a hamiltonian cycle of your employer
06:14:05 <kmc> i presume they are independent LLCs so that each strategy can go bankrupt on its own
06:14:15 <Bike> that's, i don't know what that is.
06:14:24 <Bike> some kind of bizarre evolutionary strategy
06:14:46 <Bike> it's like if i had nine independent hands and each one was wired a different way, and if i lost a hand well whatever it probably sucked anyway
06:14:52 <kmc> also e.g. some parts of the company-cluster were certified broker-dealers, which gets you certain rights and privileges in the markets
06:15:03 <kmc> and some of the strategies had to be extra super legally separate so they got offices with doors.
06:15:16 <shachaf> were there people in the offices
06:15:43 <Bike> were the people publically traded
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06:16:11 <shachaf> Bike: can i buy shares of Bike
06:16:21 <kmc> also some of the traders retained ownership of their trading code and had brought it from other firms
06:16:25 <Bike> i bet somewhere there's a company where different strategies have their own LLCs and compete over employees in a private market
06:16:47 <Bike> shachaf: i bud, sorry
06:16:49 <kmc> we sort of did that
06:17:04 <kmc> the 'general' pool of programmers was (at least at one point) seen mainly as a tool for recruiting people into strategies
06:17:07 <Bike> should i keep these pdfs from a space school about Future Technology
06:17:14 <kmc> and the idea that they would actually produce generally useful code was maybe secondary
06:17:53 <Bike> i have a paper on classical conditioning being sub-turing...
06:18:03 <kmc> also the sysadmin group was its own little fiefdom and if you wanted good computers or whatever, you needed to have a lot of trade revenue so you could promise them big bonuses
06:18:16 <Bike> that's uh, weird
06:18:23 <kmc> yet they had none of the transparency or SLAs or such you would expect from an actual internal market
06:18:25 <shachaf> kmc: do all finance companies work this way
06:18:29 <kmc> i think they were moving in that direction when I left
06:18:30 <kmc> shachaf: no
06:18:43 <kmc> shachaf: there's a spectrum between "unified company" and "shell for many independent strategies"
06:18:43 <shachaf> it's always sounded like yours was kind of dysfunctional
06:18:47 <kmc> yeah it was
06:18:55 <Bike> how was it dysfunctional?
06:18:58 <kmc> at some firms, everyone can see all the code, and all the money is pooled deterministically
06:19:02 <kmc> well see above, for one
06:19:15 <kmc> also the sysadmin group was just bad at their jobs, but they couldn't be fired because Personal Connections
06:19:17 <Bike> ok well i don't even know what "SLA" means, maybe i shouldn't ask
06:19:23 <kmc> service level agreement
06:19:35 <Bike> still no idea :P
06:19:39 <kmc> like "we will provide 99.9% uptime or else you get $bignum"
06:20:01 <kmc> if you were actually buying trading infrastructure services from an external company, you would want one
06:20:04 <shachaf> or sometimes "we will provide 99.9% uptime or else you get $thedifferenceinhostingcostswhichisbasicallynothing"
06:20:07 <kmc> but the internal sysadmin group didn't provide them
06:20:33 <kmc> basically I'm saying they tried to sell their services internally, but in an opaque and unaccountable way
06:20:40 <Bike> ALSO still waiting for an answer on the space thing
06:20:52 <kmc> they were absurdly miserly about small things like RAM upgrades
06:20:57 <kmc> for production high frequency trading machines
06:21:08 <Bike> what about the paper about inter-universal teichmuller theory, which i will never, ever understand
06:21:10 <kmc> and I have to think it wasn't just about the miniscule cost but about making pepole beg and bargain
06:21:13 <kmc> also what about space
06:21:46 <Bike> i have some pdfs from a mildly shady space technology oriented school, about terraforming and impact in African nations and such
06:21:58 <Bike> not sure if i believe them well enough to keep them so why not ask people who really don't give a damn (that's you)
06:23:06 <kmc> hm don't want to read these atm
06:24:12 <kmc> "On 20 December 2011 Mozilla announced that the contract was once again renewed for at least three years to November 2014, at three times the amount previously paid, or nearly US$300 million annually"
06:24:29 <kmc> for making Google the default search engine in Firefox
06:24:42 <Bike> that's an incredible payoff for just that
06:24:45 <kmc> "due to competing interest from both Yahoo and Microsoft"
06:25:03 <kmc> it is a staggering amount of money, but I don't really have a handle on how much Google makes from those searches
06:25:07 <kmc> presumably they think it's a good deal
06:25:27 <kmc> MSFT has loads of money and if FF switched to Bing, that would be a huge blow
06:25:56 <kmc> so I guess my salary is effectively a byproduct of a Google / MSFT bidding war, at least until 2014
06:26:09 <kmc> i can't really find this any weirder or less reputable than the way other tech companies get funded
06:26:20 <coppro> I wonder why MSFT hasn't sued for antitrust yet
06:26:31 <kmc> sued Google for bundling, or such?
06:26:40 <kmc> bit of pot kettle there, don't you think ;)
06:26:58 <kmc> eh i don't think it's a cartel if Mozilla auctioned it off to the highest bidder
06:27:17 <coppro> the pot calls the kettle black, and the chicken comes by and gets covered in soot
06:27:23 <kmc> i'm not much of a lawyer though
06:27:28 <coppro> before yelling at the pot and kettle about how black they are
06:27:34 <shachaf> kmc: i thought you were my attorney
06:27:36 <Bike> that reminds me, did you know there's a word for the dual situation of a monopoly, where there's only one buyer?
06:27:38 <coppro> then someone turns out the lights
06:27:40 <Bike> think that's pretty cool
06:28:51 <Bike> why_i_dont_have_a_girlfriend.pdf
06:28:52 <coppro> kmc: your country's department of defence has a monopsony
06:28:56 <kmc> yeah was about to say
06:28:58 <coppro> and still manages to waste shit-tons of money
06:29:08 <kmc> though not quite, because we export hella weapons, but that's also approved by the govt
06:29:24 <Bike> i like the bit where the navy was the only one buying aircraft carriers and there's also only one corporation that can build aircraft carriers
06:29:26 <kmc> they waste shit-tons of money because of regulatory capture I guess
06:29:29 <Bike> free market in action right there
06:29:38 <coppro> kmc: you also have like 300k people with top secret clearance
06:29:43 <kmc> it's not really 'waste', it's deliberately being funneled to for-profit companies
06:29:48 <kmc> i'm sure there's a lot of actual waste too
06:30:00 <Bike> just dump the money into the reactors
06:30:17 <kmc> "Fair use for Tsar Bomba... The photograph belongs to Russian department of Atomic Energy Minatom. Introducing the picture on our server does not interfere with their ability to develop and market new nuclear devices"
06:30:25 <coppro> man, you know what the world needs?
06:30:34 <Bike> more cool ships?
06:30:37 <coppro> a device which tells you which wiki is better: the one on wikia or the one that isn't
06:30:41 <coppro> since everything has exactly two wikis
06:30:42 <shachaf> coppro: well there are higher clearance levels
06:30:46 <shachaf> coppro: but you're not allowed to know about them
06:31:00 <Bike> yeah that would be pretty nice coppro
06:31:05 <Bike> let's get elliott to invent it
06:31:11 <kmc> doors in the rudders of big ships
06:31:15 <shachaf> coppro: The one on Wikia is worse by definition. hth
06:33:02 <Bike> also the US classification system has secret/top secret and all but also has this weird sort of tag system
06:33:02 <coppro> shachaf: well there's cosmic top secret
06:33:19 <Bike> particularly there are Special Interest Groups which you sometimes need classification to know about
06:33:20 <coppro> shachaf: that's far from true
06:33:37 <Bike> CIA special interest group on bovikation
06:33:38 <coppro> Bike: this is reasonably common
06:33:46 <coppro> I imagine that the US needs them more than other countries
06:33:55 <coppro> but classified info is normally need-to-know
06:34:09 <kmc> bovakistan
06:34:09 <coppro> having clearance is necessary but far from sufficient
06:34:17 <Bike> i just have no idea about other countries because i haven't looked
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06:34:30 <Bike> US classification I know about because it's on wikileaks docs etc
06:34:33 <coppro> the tagging system is, I assume, just a way of implementing
06:34:52 <Bike> stuff like NOFORN = even if a foreign national has clearance don't show 'em
06:35:10 <coppro> NOFORN would be different, I think
06:35:23 <coppro> since a foreign national even with the need to know couldn't be given NOFORN info
06:35:47 <Bike> they do sometimes make exceptions i think but yeah
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06:36:03 <shachaf> would i be allowed to see NOFORN things
06:36:25 <coppro> shachaf: yeah they're all on wikileaks
06:36:41 <Bike> allowed by wikileaks hth
06:38:30 <Bike> i don't get classification at all. there was that pakistani guy who like invented nukes for them and then they decided you're not the right kind of muslim so fuck off and bam clearance gone? governments are crazy imo
06:39:41 <Bike> i guess they did that with oppenheimer too. except w/o the muslim bit
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06:41:07 <kmc> did you know oppenheimer tried to poison his professor
06:41:48 <kmc> who hasn't, really
06:42:20 <shachaf> Sigh, why do people *still* spread monad misinformation? Just plain lies.
06:42:34 <shachaf> Maybe we should have a test that you have to pass before you're allowed to talk about the topic.
06:42:36 <coppro> shachaf: you should classify monads
06:42:58 <Bike> monads are not a crook
06:43:13 <shachaf> Bike: how are the pdfs going
06:43:24 <kmc> are they misinformationing in #haskell
06:43:25 <coppro> when I am president of the united states
06:43:29 <coppro> I will classify the lunch menu
06:43:34 <kmc> when i am king you will be first against the wall
06:43:47 <coppro> so that anyone who tries to eat lunch in the white house without clearance is in violation of classification
06:43:52 <coppro> that's treason, citizen
06:43:55 <Bike> shachaf: moved a few dozen
06:44:12 <Bike> i think i'm too sleepy to read this paper on optimizing away Y combinators, yes
06:44:14 <shachaf> kmc: no on hn comments on that article
06:44:18 <shachaf> which i looked up for some reason
06:44:30 <Bike> that was a bad idea
06:44:31 <kmc> is that reason because you are a masochist
06:44:36 <kmc> could there be any other reason
06:45:12 <Bike> this paper is on kolmogorov complexity in presburger arithmetic
06:45:17 <Bike> what the fuck am i even doing with this
06:45:18 <shachaf> i'm a particular variety of masochist, sure
06:45:55 <Bike> "Taming Wildcards in Java's Type System" ok strongly considering the deleting all pdfs option
06:46:07 <shachaf> elliott and i have a sort of sadism-masochism relationship
06:47:13 <Bike> "Hobbes, Rawls, Nussbaum, Buchmann, and All Seven of the Virtues"
06:47:15 <shachaf> kmc: this thread is p. great
06:47:23 <shachaf> a question: "what is a monad, really?
06:47:37 <Bike> a miserable little pile of morphisms
06:47:40 <shachaf> an answer that talks about bind taking the value out of the monad and wrapping it in another monad
06:47:41 <kmc> what is monad, baby don't hurt me
06:47:48 <shachaf> an answer that talks about composition of adjoint functors
06:48:04 <kmc> 15:32 < kmc> you can take the kmc out of the #haskell but you can never take the #haskell out of the kmc
06:48:06 <shachaf> this is the ideal thread of bad explanations
06:48:26 <Bike> sucks how unintuitive "a thing that follows these rules" is an explanation apparently
06:49:24 <kmc> let's focus on the real question: should i eat more noodles
06:49:39 <Bike> pbr.pdf has surprisingly little to do with hipsters
06:50:01 <shachaf> `run echo "let's focus on the real question: should i eat more nooodles" | rnooodl
06:50:02 <HackEgo> let's focus on the real question: should i eat more noooodles
06:50:07 <shachaf> `run echo "let's focus on the real question: should i eat more nooodles" | rnooodl
06:50:09 <HackEgo> let's focus on the real question: should i eat more noooooooodles
06:50:27 <kmc> i like that PBR's claim to have won a Blue Ribbon is highly dubious
06:50:40 <kmc> like the ice cream shop down the street that says «"The World's Best Ice Cream" -- New York Times» on the window
06:51:02 <kmc> was it the wordl's best
06:51:11 <shachaf> the burnt caramel ice cream was not to my taste
06:51:20 <shachaf> the burnt:caramel ratio was too high
06:51:22 <Bike> shachaf will just have to eat every oether ice cream in the world to be sure
06:51:31 <kmc> do they have good ice cream in sf
06:51:48 <Bike> "The Analogy Between Physics and Topology" it's way too midnight for this shit
06:51:57 <shachaf> i was at that place with the liquid nitrogen ice cream
06:51:58 <kmc> i went to the Three Twins location in Lower Haight but then it burned down :/
06:52:01 <shachaf> prepared in front of your very eyes
06:52:03 <Bike> i think elliott linked me this one actually. fuck you, elliott. read your fucking hott
06:52:25 <shachaf> Bike: oh are you looking for papers to read
06:52:31 <Bike> no for fuck's sake
06:52:32 <kmc> Notice: Undefined index: user in include() (line 272 of /home/content/48/8614948/html/sites/all/themes/fusion/fusion_starter/node--scoop-shop.tpl.php).
06:52:37 <shachaf> do they have good frozen yogurt in downtown mountain view
06:52:49 <Bike> colorblindness in cuttlefish
06:52:52 <kmc> more about the toppings, imo
06:52:53 <Bike> this will be relevant to my life
06:52:59 <kmc> Bike: they can see polarization can't they
06:53:28 <kmc> also can't they mimick colors? can't be totally color blind
06:53:37 <Bike> this paper is about literally exactly that
06:53:43 <kmc> well, good
06:53:50 <shachaf> more comments: "learning Haskell verges on learning mathematical concepts at times and learning monads is definitely one of those times"
06:54:02 <kmc> what's the tl;dr
06:54:24 <Bike> of the paper? i refer you to my "oh god it's midnight why am i doing this (dong this)"
06:54:32 <Bike> lemme look again
06:55:08 <kmc> shachaf: wow you're saying programming is related to math? incredible
06:55:29 <Bike> i guess their answer is "yep definitely colorblind but that camo thing sure is weird"
06:55:34 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:55:34 <kmc> good science
06:55:36 <Bike> they suggest it might have to do with perception of contrast
06:55:40 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:55:43 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:55:56 <lambdabot> kmc says: programming is inherently mathematical. furthermore, the connection between haskell and maths is overblown by people who don't understand the language
06:56:02 <shachaf> kmc stop it with the quotes
06:56:41 <lambdabot> TRWBW says: category theory gives math a bad name. sorta like functional programming does with computer science.
06:56:56 <shachaf> is TRWBW still around in ##math
06:57:08 <Bike> hey i have a paper on Blue Gene simulations of cats, awesome
06:57:30 <shachaf> kmc: I like how that quote is in the quote database twice.
06:57:42 <Bike> how can you tell
06:57:55 <Bike> actually don't answer that it can be a mystery
06:57:55 <kmc> shachaf: today I told people that you need monads to do IO the same way you need ZFC set theory to do 2+2
06:58:09 <shachaf> Bike: There's a double-spaced and single-spaced version.
06:58:15 <Bike> huh that's not such a bad analogy really
06:58:28 <Bike> what's New Foundations in this analogy
06:58:36 <shachaf> @forget kmc Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
06:58:41 <kmc> thanks Bike
06:58:51 <shachaf> Reasonably analogy for that argument.
06:59:11 <shachaf> tomorrow's headlines: haskell requires programmers to know zfc to write hello world
06:59:26 <Bike> "[world's best] really [...] not [...] bad analogy" -- Bike
06:59:26 <kmc> well sorry actually
06:59:39 <kmc> i said you need *category theory* for IO the same way etc
07:00:00 <kmc> you need to understand the stdlib thing named "Monad" but that's not such a big deal
07:00:09 <kmc> you could do it
07:00:15 <shachaf> i wish i used tweeter so i could retwit you
07:00:39 <kmc> i also complained about #haskell
07:00:43 <Bike> my client doesn't show replies i guess
07:00:44 <kmc> you probably saw that too
07:00:47 <shachaf> Maybe I should send your quote in to HWN.
07:00:56 <kmc> nobody retwerped that either
07:01:07 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/hwnquotes
07:01:18 <shachaf> imo retweet your own tweet and stick @HWNQuotes in front of it
07:01:21 <Bike> to be honest i'm not sure i'd want to see this argument though
07:02:06 <shachaf> btw this is the thread i was talking about if anyone else has masochistic tendencies: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5872002
07:02:09 <Bike> arguing about programming languages is like negative my things
07:02:36 <kmc> arguing about programming languages is like using similes
07:02:57 <Bike> oh shit i have a homotopy type theory paper help
07:03:33 <Bike> site-name_-_title_-_mod-yyyy-mod-mm-mod-dd.pdf
07:03:34 <shachaf> hott seems "p. cool actually"
07:03:57 <shachaf> kmc: Did I ever ask you about that thing I was trying to figure out with inequality?
07:04:34 <Bike> ok finishing this tomorrow thank's for playing
07:05:02 <shachaf> In Haskell10 + RankNTypes, something like "forall p. p Char -> p Bool" is completely independent, as far as I can tell.
07:05:24 <shachaf> I.e. foo :: forall p. p Char -> p Bool and bar :: (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) -> Void are both unprovable (without ⊥ etc.)
07:05:55 <shachaf> GADTs and TypeFamilies both let you prove bar, but those are huge and slightly dubious extensions. Is there a smaller extension that'll let you prove bar?
07:06:16 <shachaf> ((forall p. p A -> p B) is Leibniz type equality between A and B.)
07:08:01 <shachaf> The way GADTs give it to you is more or less by omitting a warning when a GADT pattern match would lead to a unification error.
07:08:30 <shachaf> It seems, well, reasonable, but an axiom-via-not-printing-a-warning seems kind of suspicious. I'd like to see it stated explicitly somehow.
07:09:32 <shachaf> Did you get edwardkomments about affine types?
07:10:08 <kmc> ok, I wrote the appropriate GADT
07:10:23 <kmc> data Foo t where FooChar :: Foo Char; FooBool :: Void -> Foo Bool
07:10:32 <kmc> eq :: (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) -> Void; eq f = case f FooChar of FooBool v -> v
07:10:35 <kmc> is that what you had in mind?
07:10:44 <shachaf> Right. That's how you do it with GADTs.
07:10:54 <kmc> and where do you think it should warn?
07:11:27 <shachaf> I don't necessarily think it should warn -- it's just that this "axiom" is implemented via not warning about the fact that you're not matching FooChar.
07:11:28 <kmc> btw i decided to have beer instead of more noodles
07:11:44 <shachaf> I'd like to see it stated explicitly.
07:11:49 <kmc> why would you match FooChar? the type doesn't match
07:12:06 <shachaf> OK, imagine you tried to emulate GADTs with Leibniz equality.
07:12:08 <kmc> you want something like «case f FooChar of FooBool v -> v; FooChar ()»
07:12:16 <kmc> like an absurd pattern in Agda?
07:12:22 <kmc> btw I may have misremembered the syntax
07:12:26 <shachaf> Right, but you need a proof that it's absurd.
07:12:27 <kmc> Bike: i regret nothing
07:12:31 <shachaf> And that proof is Is Char Bool -> Void
07:12:35 <kmc> shachaf: ah, and... yeah
07:12:35 <shachaf> And you can't write that without GADTs.
07:12:54 <shachaf> newtype Is a b = Is (forall p. p a -> p b)
07:12:57 <kmc> agda has that notion of type equality built in though, right?
07:13:07 <shachaf> data Foo t = FooChar (Is t Char) | FooBool (Is t Bool) Void
07:13:17 <shachaf> That doesn't give you the same power as the GADT.
07:13:18 <kmc> this is your GADTs-via-Leibniz?
07:13:26 <Bike> this is a funny conversation to see after "you don't need math for haskell" :P
07:13:38 <kmc> but it isn't Haskell!!!!!! it's Haskell + RankNTypes + GADTs
07:13:58 <kmc> it's not really "needed" either...
07:14:05 <kmc> it's needed if you want to do specific cool things
07:14:37 <shachaf> "you need math to use pencil and paper! look at those people writing those complicated equations there!"
07:14:46 <kmc> you need fancy stuff if you want a far higher degree of static checking than other languages
07:14:53 <kmc> if you want only moderately higher degree, you don't
07:15:11 <Bike> the ":P" meant that wasn't supposed to be a serious criticism of either thing, just saying
07:15:14 <shachaf> moderately higher degree... is that like a master's
07:15:21 <kmc> i'm obliged to respnod though
07:15:41 <shachaf> kmc: Anyway, in HoTT you actually *do* get equality of isomorphic types.
07:15:56 <shachaf> I.e. you can write foo :: Is Word8 Int8 or something like that.
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07:16:21 <shachaf> So HoTT is incompatible with GADTs in GHC, because it always assumes inequality.
07:17:05 <kmc> explain the last bit?
07:17:20 <shachaf> I mean that it assumes Char will never be equal to Bool.
07:17:28 <shachaf> In this case it really never will, because they're different sizes.
07:17:43 <shachaf> But if you had an isomorphism then you might be able to provide actual equality.
07:17:52 <shachaf> (NB: I don't actually understand HoTT.)
07:18:26 <shachaf> By the way, GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving is also related to this. It uses unsafeCoerce as evidence that a newtype and its underlying type are equal.
07:18:31 <kmc> so in HoTT i can do (Word8 -> Int8) -> (Int8 -> Word8) -> Is Word8 Int8 ?
07:18:42 <kmc> except I also prove it's a legit isomorphism, somehow?
07:18:47 <shachaf> Well, you'd probably want an actual isomorphism, not just a pair of functions.
07:18:52 <shachaf> I think that's the general idea.
07:19:26 <shachaf> So I think GND is actually safe in Haskell10 + RankNTypes.
07:19:37 <shachaf> It's only when you add GADTs or TypeFamilies that it breaks.
07:19:41 <kmc> interesting
07:19:51 <kmc> not surprising though
07:20:09 <kmc> my intuition is that GADTs and TFs let you use types less "parametrically" than is generally assumed in Haskell
07:20:13 <kmc> and that's the source of a lot of trouble
07:20:49 <shachaf> http://joyoftypes.blogspot.com/2012/08/generalizednewtypederiving-is.html says he couldn't figure out a way to do it with just Leibniz equality. But I think it's actually not possible, because there's something missing there.
07:21:04 <shachaf> GADTs with weaker Leibniz-style equality would probably be less useful.
07:22:36 <shachaf> Anyway what I'd like is to see the extra power that GADTs give you stated explicitly somehow.
07:22:50 <shachaf> But talking about inequality is annoying.
07:24:06 <kmc> a tweet i am not drunk enough to send: "Haskell sucks because it requires you to learn some math to do things that are simply impossible in other languages"
07:24:33 <shachaf> the solution is more beer hth
07:24:38 <kmc> out of beer
07:24:40 <kmc> switching to cider
07:25:36 <shachaf> kmc: you would get so many replies about turing completeness
07:25:58 <Bike> uh kmc i can just use Perl to write a slime mold emulator that runs haskell
07:27:24 <kmc> programming languages is a HCI problem
07:27:28 <kmc> here's another tweet i won't send
07:27:39 <kmc> instead i will just drink more and watch Mad Men
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07:37:57 <kmc> my alcohol tolerance is pretty ridiculous
07:38:35 <shachaf> kmc has a ∞-tolerance policy
07:38:44 <kmc> i'm a big white dude, you see
07:38:56 <kmc> also i drink often
07:40:27 <shachaf> should i drink occasionally
07:40:54 <kmc> i often have a few drinks, but I occasionally get properly drunk
07:40:59 <kmc> see above re: tolerance
07:42:31 <shachaf> writing drm code must be unpleasant
07:42:34 <kmc> alcohol is overrated because it's the one widely accepted legal fun drug
07:42:37 <shachaf> fighting a battle you know you'll lose
07:42:45 <kmc> but it's still worth doing from time to time
07:43:15 <kmc> shachaf: eh, or you see it like any other security measure, as something to keep out attackers of a certain skill level for a certain amount of time
07:43:37 <kmc> but I agree that DRM on content is pretty hopeless, because it takes only one person to put it on BitTorrent
07:43:50 <kmc> I don't understand why Hulu bothers with DRM on some shows, when those same shows can be recorded over the air
07:44:05 <kmc> things like locking down video game consoles to signed software are less hopeless
07:44:15 <kmc> it might stand for 6-18 months and that's enough for a meaningful advantage
07:44:23 <kmc> same with anti-reverse-engineering tech
07:44:39 <kmc> if you can make your competitors spend a few million or delay them by a few months, that can be a big deal
07:44:39 <shachaf> I suppose some people explicitly have it as their goal to keep the DRM uncracked for a few weeks or some period of time in which the majority of sales are usually made.
07:46:42 * kmc is picking through a big bin of diamond-cut shredder shit and is having fun identifying the source documents
07:47:09 <kmc> oops here's a diamond that contains a full 1D barcode
07:47:14 <kmc> coppro: boredom
07:47:35 <kmc> it's stuff i shredded
07:48:40 <kmc> one thing I miss from college is easy access to a fireplace for document destruction
07:50:13 <shachaf> in an hour of need any space can serve as a fireplace
07:51:02 <kmc> that is true
07:51:19 <kmc> but urban areas have these busybodies who show up and try to put out fires
07:51:47 <shachaf> and if you do it on purpose you get banned
07:52:59 <shachaf> maybe i should be banned from this channel
07:53:16 <shachaf> i heard kmc was moving to sf because it was an herban area
07:53:37 <kmc> no don't banchaf :'(
07:53:40 <kmc> shachaf: yes
07:53:47 <kmc> not the only reason but... a reason
07:54:51 <kmc> somebody in SF was complaining about how they were "flying to a place where drugs are illegal"
07:55:07 <shachaf> are you going to get a what'sitcalled medical thing
07:55:58 <kmc> then i can visit dispensaries and get all pretentious about different strains of weed
07:56:17 <shachaf> or have it delivered to you
07:56:28 <shachaf> p. soon Bike can do the same thing of course
08:00:23 <kmc> is Bike actually moving to CA
08:01:06 <shachaf> i meant the whole WA thing
08:07:32 <kmc> won't even need a 'green card' though
08:11:00 <shachaf> are drugz as good as drugz jokes
08:11:49 <kmc> hard to compare
08:12:33 <shachaf> what about drugz jokes......on drugz
08:13:06 <shachaf> need to be in san jose at 11 tomorrow
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08:20:58 <kmc> '--sparc2.2: If an array was created on a SPARC machine with a 2.2 Linux kernel patched with RAID support, the superblock will have been created incorrectly, or at least incompatibly with 2.4 and later kernels. Using the --sparc2.2 flag with --examine will fix the superblock before displaying it.' i love computers
08:22:38 <shachaf> hey kmc you should read `olist it's good
08:22:39 <kmc> what kind of people
08:25:56 <shachaf> hey someone unfollowed me on twitter
08:26:07 <kmc> shachaf do you have cool friends
08:26:26 <shachaf> gasp it was @darinmorrison
08:29:37 <shachaf> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-utils/2010-10/msg00002.html thanks gnu time
08:30:56 <kmc> what's two (binary) orders of magnitude between friends
08:31:09 <kmc> or 12? whatever
08:31:31 <kmc> this cider allegedly pairs with shrimps and cheeses
08:31:43 <kmc> don't like shrimps :(
08:32:06 <kmc> oh i think that icon means 'seafood generally'
08:32:47 <olsner> you don't have to eat seafood just because you drink the cider
08:32:54 <shachaf> not speaking of shrimps did you see http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_lobster?printable=true
08:33:45 <kmc> have not read it yet
08:34:43 <olsner> "... One visitor would argue that the celebration involves a whole lot more." is this article about drugs?
08:36:17 <kmc> no but i know of it generally
08:36:25 <kmc> one of DFW's essay collections is named after this essay
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09:24:06 <kmc> http://www.cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2013-June/017369.html Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem proved in Isabelle
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09:37:15 <shachaf> kmc: do you know about count-min sketch
09:37:50 <shachaf> it's a thing like a bloom filter
09:42:09 <kmc> wikipedia only says how to use it for counts, but I guess it can be used for other things?
09:53:39 <shachaf> I don't know much more about it than you presumably do now. :-)
09:54:01 <shachaf> kmc: •Privacy preserving computations ensure that multiple parties can cooperate to compute a function of their data while only learning the answer and not anything about the inputs of the other participants. Roughan and Zhang demonstrate that the Count-Min Sketch can be used within such computations, by applying standard techniques for computing privacy preserving sums on each counter independently [15].
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10:27:13 <olsner> hmm, the norwegian seafood council wants to introduce a special swedish word for salmon from norway
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11:47:15 <fizzie> Grumble grumble. "Editing (including deleting points) is not supported for this geometry type. Editing is only supported on lines and polygons."
11:47:30 <fizzie> Apparently what I recorded with GPSLogger is a "tour" instead of a "line".
11:51:09 <fizzie> Or possibly a "track".
11:51:18 <fizzie> But a "path" is a "line".
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15:20:01 <Taneb> elliott, I like the new lambdabot messagey thing
15:20:58 <Bike> hey elliott read that book or whatever
15:24:04 <elliott> i'm getting Bike to remind me to read it
15:24:45 <mnoqy> i dont have a hott book but maybe i should get one
15:25:08 <elliott> mnoqy: https://github.com/HoTT/book
15:25:11 <elliott> its a "work in progress" aiui
15:25:42 <mnoqy> i'll put it on my list
15:29:40 <fizzie> I'll put it on two lists, which I'll then immediately delete.
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15:46:42 <elliott> bike already did that one nodl
15:52:38 <hagb4rd> how is the weather in hexham now?
15:54:06 <Taneb> It was raining at lunchtime, though
15:54:21 <hagb4rd> yes its rainy but warm here too
15:54:44 <Taneb> If hagb4rd is in Prudhoe or something, I swear to god...
15:55:35 <nooodl> visit neither of taneb/elliott
15:55:55 <Taneb> Didn't someone do that a couple of years ago
15:56:01 <Taneb> People probably do that all the time
15:56:05 <Taneb> But someone in this channel
15:56:13 <Taneb> oerjan or fizzie or someone
15:56:43 <nooodl> should organize an #esoteric meetup
15:56:53 <nooodl> where nobody actually meets up
15:56:59 <nooodl> they're just all somewhere in hexham
16:01:41 <mnoqy> that sounds dangerous
16:01:51 <mnoqy> what if someone actually meets up
16:01:54 <hagb4rd> what was the command to calculate Celsius to Fahrenheit?
16:02:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sanetemp: not found
16:02:38 <mnoqy> `frink 100 celsius -> fahrenheit
16:02:47 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Unknown symbol "fahrenheit" \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 100 celsius (undefined symbol) -> fahrenheit (undefined symbol)
16:02:52 <mnoqy> `frink 100 degrees celsius -> fahrenheit
16:02:58 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Unknown symbol "fahrenheit" \ Warning: undefined symbol "celsius". \ Warning: undefined symbol "fahrenheit". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 1.7453292519943295767 celsius (undefined symbol) -> fahrenheit (undefined symbol)
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16:06:00 <hagb4rd> i wonder: do you english folks use celsius fahrenheit or kelvin or what?
16:10:00 <coppro> hagb4rd: no, just elliott
16:56:31 <fizzie> They measure in Réaumur.
16:58:01 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130613-reaumur.jpg -- as seen in a park few days back.
16:59:13 <fizzie> (That was in Switzerland, though almost in Italy.)
16:59:52 <fizzie> (Okay, it's kind of hard to make out the label, but that's what it is.)
17:01:28 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9aumur_scale
17:01:28 <lambdabot> Title: Réaumur scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17:02:37 <fizzie> "Its only modern use is in the measuring of milk temperature in cheese production." Weird stuff.
17:04:14 <Taneb> Did we work out the answers to itsy's riddle?
17:04:48 <nooodl> i'd have given it a shot but i didn't have any time
17:09:42 <Taneb> I think I got it but I can't remember how I got it
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17:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss imagine Holmes as, well, the Doctor, somehow a central figure in the battle between good and evil even if they can't quite articulate why or how." i am so glad i found this blog
17:48:49 <hagb4rd> Phantom_Hoover: what blog?
17:57:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i keep meaning to watch it if only for the malbolge
17:57:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, and also to piss off people who complain it's a ripoff of the bbc sherlock
17:57:42 <Phantom_Hoover> it sounds better than bbc sherlock; frankly i'm gobsmacked
17:58:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: does it really surprise you that something could be better than a moffat show
17:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> dude it's an american modernisation of a british classic
18:06:50 <Taneb> I think in early episodes they tried too hard to appeal to the shippers
18:07:26 <Taneb> On occasion, not every episode
18:07:32 <Taneb> About three episodes
18:16:34 -!- disadep has joined.
18:17:08 <HackEgo> disadep: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:18:14 -!- FreeFull has quit.
18:18:16 <disadep> I became interested in esoteric languages recently
18:20:36 <disadep> and I was wondering if it's Turing-complete
18:20:51 <disadep> is there a good way to find out if it really is?
18:21:33 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:23:18 <Taneb> There's a knack to it
18:24:38 -!- disadep has changed nick to disaderp.
18:25:53 <Taneb> I don't think that is Turing complete. Is the full spec online anywhere?
18:27:19 <elliott> consider http://esolangs.org/wiki/Computational_class#Proofs_of_computational_class
18:27:23 <disaderp> here is the list of avaliable functions: http://pastebin.com/7PMHWQJh
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18:33:44 <hagb4rd> disaderp: have you defined any comparison operators?
18:34:16 <disaderp> there is a function Cmp() that compares two ints or two bools
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18:37:12 <kmc> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-hacks/2013-June/000552.html
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18:47:55 <Taneb> `run echo "hi" | zalgo
18:48:57 <Taneb> `run echo "hi" | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
18:59:56 <tswett> A knot diagram can be interpreted as a network of resistors, where each crossing is a resistor with resistance either 1 or -1.
19:00:19 <tswett> Then the Reidemeister moves are all valid ways of rewriting a resistor network.
19:02:48 <tswett> Specifcally: adding a resistor between an existing node and a new node (R1), adding a resistor between a node and itself (R1), replacing a node with three nodes connected by resistors of resistance 1 and -1 in series (R2), adding resistors of resistance 1 and -1 in parallel to any gap (R2), and the wye-delta transform (R3), and the reverse of all these.
19:08:39 <tswett> Conversely, any planar resistor network where resistors have resistance 1 and -1 can be interpreted as a knot diagram.
19:10:24 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:11:18 <tswett> Adi(o with acute accent)s.
19:11:26 -!- disaderp has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:12:16 <tswett> It's not obvious what it means for two resistor networks to be equivalent.
19:16:40 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
19:17:26 -!- esimmers has joined.
19:17:36 <esimmers> Help Your country get to the top in the virtual world of E-sim. Become a businessman, military leader or a mighty president. Join for FREE now: http://secura.e-sim.org/lan.3355/
19:17:36 -!- esimmers has left.
19:18:01 <Bike> is this channel like a hot hangout now
19:18:15 <kmc> help your country get k-lined
19:19:33 <Taneb> elliott, can you think of anywhere in Hexham that prints designs onto T-shirts?
19:20:03 <Bike> isn't there a cheapass way to do it yourself
19:20:15 <Taneb> Bike, you need some fancy paper which I can't find
19:21:37 <Bike> http://www.thomsonlocal.com/Screen%20printers/in/Hexham/ it appears the answer is no
19:21:54 <Bike> according to the almighty
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19:23:03 <fizzie> #esoteric must have finally "made it" to be noticed by freenode spammers.
19:24:40 <Bike> retroactively attracting spam
19:24:44 <Bike> the wsj's powers are great
19:25:42 <fizzie> @google esoteric wall street journal
19:25:43 <lambdabot> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204517204577046381261300406.html
19:25:43 <lambdabot> Title: Test for Bonds Backed by Esoteric Assets - WSJ.com
19:26:05 <fizzie> This channel: full of assets.
19:26:18 <fizzie> And other things starting with "ass".
19:26:40 <Bike> bro are you esoteric 'cos i have a turkey baster and you have... assets... yes
19:27:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:35:09 <Fiora> so um. this really isn't #esoteric material but (I guess C++ is kind of esoteric <.<) if I have an Apple class and a Banana class and both classes contain functions that reference each other, how do I do a forward class declaration so that I don't get undeclared Banana messages?
19:36:09 <elliott> does just "class Banana;" work or is there something more elaborate I'm missing?
19:37:14 <Fiora> oh, maybe that would? I have no idea, I am terrible at this
19:38:08 <elliott> don't worry, nobody has yet figured out how to not be terrible at C++
19:38:43 <Fiora> yay, it works, thanks
19:39:00 <Bike> the programming ethos: just guess and hope it works (it does) (sometimes)
19:39:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Undeclared Banana messages | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU | nid wyf yn y swyddfa.
19:40:00 <oerjan> is that underhanded thing still ongoing?
19:41:10 <Bike> oerjan: "the deadline is July 4th"
19:41:34 <elliott> oerjan: imo you should read this homotopy type theory book for me
19:41:46 <Bike> i'm w/ that guy
19:43:13 <oerjan> is homotopy type theory actually consistent the little i've noticed about makes it look like it declares almost everything equal
19:44:02 <Bike> two equals three, up equals down, anarchy reigns. such is life under homotopy
19:44:18 -!- atehwa_ has changed nick to atehwa.
19:46:21 <elliott> oerjan: it declares identity and equivalence equal
19:46:30 <elliott> oerjan: that is, an isomorphism between A and B implies equality of A and B
19:46:43 <elliott> and the conjecture is that the resulting system is still computable.
19:46:56 <elliott> (where A and B are types, of course)
19:46:57 <oerjan> hm i guess that just means working in a skeleton category, or something
19:47:06 <elliott> oerjan: well the idea is to enrichen equality
19:47:09 <elliott> rather than weakening isomorphism
19:47:26 <elliott> Bike: yes, it's not been shown that you can always compute the equality substitutions using the axiom away
19:47:36 <elliott> anyway this book is literally 500 pages.
19:48:20 <Bike> is the axiom called 'away' i'm confused
19:48:25 <Bike> is 500 pages supposed to be a lot
19:48:54 <oerjan> these days i have trouble with 5
19:48:55 <elliott> Bike: as opposed to getting blocked on substitution of an equality using the univalence axiom
19:49:04 <Bike> right so beyond me
19:50:12 <elliott> Bike: i.e., a program can reduce to something like "rewrite foo : ...stuff involving A and its terms... to foo : ...stuff involving B and its terms... by univalence (...isomorphism between A and B...)"
19:50:42 <elliott> and it's not proven that you can always get "past" that rewrite to actually computing foo however it's defined, is my understanding.
19:51:03 <Bike> livin on the edge
19:52:07 <oerjan> my new laptop is too cold for my lap :(
19:52:58 <elliott> oerjan: try compiling ghc hth
19:54:10 <Fiora> civilization 5 is really good at making mine overheat
19:54:16 <Fiora> it's fun too! two birds
19:54:55 <elliott> Bike: have you ever killed birds w/ stones
19:55:12 <elliott> analogies for people who are cruel to animals: imo the best analogies?
19:55:20 <Bike> is this some kind of sicko british schoolboy thing
19:55:49 <oerjan> well you don't have to use such analogies, there's more than one way to skin a cat
19:55:54 * Fiora eagerly awaits the new expansion
19:56:02 <nooodl> btw did you know the dutch expression is
19:56:08 <nooodl> "hit two flies with one swat"
19:56:30 <oerjan> that's also the norwegian expression hth
19:56:37 <Bike> great, cruelty to birds /and/ bugs
19:57:06 <Bike> 12:56 -!- ELLIOTTCABLE is now known as purr
19:57:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, is friendship mouse still about?
19:57:50 <elliott> ph became friendship mouse
19:59:18 <Bike> it involves killing animals
20:03:00 <nooodl> #esoteric civ 5 succession game
20:05:48 <Fiora> oooh, succession games
20:05:54 <Fiora> I remember seeing lots of logs of those for civ 4, they looked really fun
20:06:08 <nooodl> i don't have civ 5 though :(
20:13:30 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:14:04 <fizzie> But it's only [an amount of money].
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20:45:12 <oerjan> <Bike> what's New Foundations in this analogy <-- uniqueness types hth
20:45:28 <kmc> yeah i considered saying that
20:45:59 <Taneb> Fiora, we do a Dwarf Fortress one
20:46:06 <Taneb> Unless elliott has lost it
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20:57:40 <kmc> http://www.mushroomexpert.com/lysurus_cruciatus.html squid mushroom
20:59:26 <Phantom_Hoover> how long did you spend weeping with joy before you linked that
21:05:46 <Bike> "No, you don't install things by typing 'sudo easy_install thing' into the Python REPL. Not only is that not a console, you're on Windows."
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21:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> that thing about the wii fit trainer being in the next super smash bros wasn't a joke?
21:24:58 <Bike> No, it's awesome.
21:25:09 <Bike> There's a villager from Animal Crossing too.
21:25:32 <Bike> that they'll go well with game and watch?
21:26:14 <Bike> wasn't he in two games
21:26:28 <Taneb> Yeah, I think he was in Melee and Brawl
21:28:01 <Bike> it is the silliest
21:28:11 <Taneb> I was playing Brawl this evening
21:28:20 <Taneb> I completely changed my control scheme for the hell of it
21:28:29 <Fiora> the wii fit trainer is awesome
21:28:31 <Bike> SSB tourney people are hilarious, on that note
21:28:35 <Fiora> everything about her is pretty great
21:28:39 <Bike> fox only, final destination, etc
21:28:45 <Fiora> like, it means that now, super smash brothers has a
21:28:53 * Fiora takes off her sunglasses
21:28:56 <Fiora> strong female character
21:29:01 <Bike> dammit is it even sunny where you are!
21:29:17 <elliott> next in super smash bros: a generic mii
21:29:19 <Bike> it's miserable here, i, just kind of assumed
21:29:26 <Fiora> I think they're actually allowing miis in the next version?
21:29:30 <Taneb> Bike, as someone who's actually participated in a SSBB tournament, I managed to convince them to play random stage
21:29:39 <Taneb> And it pretty much lost me the final
21:29:52 <Taneb> Fiora, what about Samus
21:30:27 <Taneb> WHAT ABOUT PIKACHU
21:30:38 <Fiora> but um like. really the wii fit trainer makes gaming dudebros angry so it's probably a good thing
21:31:17 <Taneb> Fiora, are you getting all the "villager will behead you without a second thought" stuff on Tumblr
21:31:31 <Bike> it's such a weird thing to be pissed about, I mean Brawl had a pictochat level
21:32:17 <Fiora> Taneb: all the stuff about the villager is wonderful
21:32:21 <Fiora> especially as a fan of animal crossing
21:32:35 <Bike> is it true that his final smash involves weeding
21:32:35 <Fiora> like oh gosh the digging pits to catch your opponents
21:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> part of it might be that i never really thought of wii fit as a 'game', more of as an appliance or something
21:32:49 <Fiora> dance dance revolution is a game, right?
21:32:52 <Bike> unlike pictochat
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21:47:41 <elliott> Given this discussion of adding new principles such as univalence, higher inductive types, AC, and LEM, one may wonder whether the resulting system remains consistent. (One of the original virtues of type theory, relative to set theory, was that it can be seen to be consistent by proof-theoretic means).
21:47:48 <elliott> As with any foundational system, consistency is a relative ques- tion: “consistent with respect to what?” The short answer is that all of the constructions and axioms considered in this book have a model in the category of Kan complexes, due to Voevod- sky [KLV12] (see [LS13b] for higher inductive types).
21:47:55 <elliott> Thus, they are known to be consistent relative to ZFC (with as many inaccessible cardinals as we need nested univalent universes). Giving a more traditionally type-theoretic account of this consistency is work in progress (see, e.g., [LH12, BCH13]).
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21:56:16 <elliott> Bike: also, the exact form of what's unknown: "Voevodsky has formulated a precise mathematical conjecture connected to this question of canonicity for type theory extended with the axiom of Univalence: given a closed term of the type of natural numbers, is it always possible to find a numeral and a proof that this term is equal to this numeral, where this proof of equality may itself use the univalence axiom?"
22:00:00 <oerjan> <Bike> it's miserable here, i, just kind of assumed <-- i think Fiora is in california hth
22:02:24 <nooodl> has anyone here used Actual pictochat
22:02:33 <nooodl> it was very good it had some good emoticons
22:02:44 <nooodl> i remember: a happy square, a sad square
22:02:55 <mnoqy> one time i used ms comic chat in wine and it barely worked but i cant seem to get it to work anymore
22:03:01 <Fiora> sunny is miserable though :<
22:03:02 <nooodl> but then you could like
22:03:03 <Fiora> I'd rather it be cloudy
22:03:29 <nooodl> type a happy face, press send, then type a sad face, then copy your previous message
22:03:40 <nooodl> and you'd start "layering" emoticons and they'd get Amazing
22:06:23 <nooodl> does the 3ds even have pictochat ?????
22:06:53 <Fiora> It has a chat thing where you can draw messages and send them to each other
22:07:03 <nooodl> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/03/Pictochat.png bottom left corner: the happy face
22:07:19 <Fiora> right, that's what it was called
22:08:30 <elliott> nooodl: one person talking to themselves about wikipedia
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22:15:41 <Fiora> that sounds like it'd be really hard to use
22:19:46 <nooodl> it could be pretty good
22:20:11 <nooodl> drawing on an xy plane, two buttons control the z axis
22:20:38 <Fiora> why do I imagine this would be used almost entirely for sculpting, um. obscene things
22:20:39 <nooodl> and then you'd draw a thing, hold the down button for a while, then draw anothing thing! and one would be behind the other
22:20:43 <elliott> imo 3d pictochat hooked up to a 3d printer
22:20:50 <elliott> so you actually sculpt something and send it over
22:21:09 <elliott> and then people us it for guns
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22:22:12 <Fiora> how about cute things like nendoroids
22:22:14 <Fiora> guns aren't very cute
22:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> what if you made it like some kind of glassblowing simulator
22:23:12 <mnoqy> i'm sure they're willing to learn
22:23:33 <elliott> have to study at the academy of penis blowing
22:24:15 <coppro> elliott: I hear it's very popular among young men these days
22:25:41 <mnoqy> maybe it's good money.....high demand for glass penises????
22:27:17 <elliott> hey everyone has seen glass klein bottles rite
22:27:38 <coppro> none of this lousy self-intersecting shit
22:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> did you know that the guy who runs that klein bottle site is also the guy who tracked down that german hacker in the 80s?
22:31:27 -!- SgeoBot has joined.
22:37:46 <oerjan> nah i think his new employed just cyborgized him
22:40:13 <oerjan> soon he'll be involved in dramatic battles between good and evil. we are not yet sure on which side.
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22:56:53 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.theonion.com/articles/advanced-alien-civilization-discovers-uninhabitabl,32808/
23:02:17 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
23:02:34 <Fiora> oh gosh. that quote is still around
23:03:50 <HackEgo> 820) <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions. \ 830) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it \ 958) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, are you just trying to post kmcbait..
23:03:59 <shachaf> oh you have a lot of quotes
23:05:05 <Fiora> "her eyes like normal brown-ish stones" // actually me
23:08:44 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:10:35 <Bike> elliott: so how's that axiomy thingy work with richardson's theorem; also why is it "numeral"; also there's no chance in hell i'll understand anything
23:11:46 <Bike> Fiora: global warming is just depress ing
23:13:13 -!- noooodl has quit (Quit: noooodl).
23:13:24 <elliott> Bike: i don't see the relation to richardson's theorem
23:13:35 <elliott> richardson's theorem is about decidability
23:13:56 <elliott> it's numeral because expressions of the form e ::= 0 | S e are the normal form values of type nat
23:14:11 <elliott> and you can turn any finite amount of "things computed" into something of type nat
23:14:17 <elliott> so it's a reasonable choice for stating the property
23:14:23 <Bike> well isn't it about proving a closed form is equal to a number
23:15:22 <shachaf> I,I (you can't prove that) (crack isn't fake)
23:15:51 <elliott> Bike: well you can prove any term of type nat in normal regular type theory has a numeral and a proof that the term is equal to that numeral
23:16:12 <elliott> Bike: you evaluate the term, it results in a numeral, and then the proof is obvious
23:16:18 <elliott> "it reduces to the numeral; q.e.d."
23:16:50 <Bike> it's sad that i'm trying to figure out if "normal regular" is a technical term
23:17:38 <shachaf> you're thinking of standard normal hth
23:19:18 <Fiora> Bike: so like, there's this problem of "given 2 21x21 matrices with integer elements, is it possible to multiply them in some order (with repetition if you want) to achieve the zero matrix"
23:19:37 <Fiora> apparently um. this isn't even like EXPTIME or something. it's undecidable
23:20:02 <Bike> yeah matrix mortality right
23:20:15 <Bike> i thought you only needed 13x13
23:20:20 <Bike> ^rainbow linear operators
23:20:48 <Fiora> this paper says 7x 3x3 or 2x 21x21
23:20:59 <Bike> well, integers make everything harder
23:21:00 <elliott> Fiora: god, i hate magic numbers like that
23:21:01 <Bike> that's just a fact
23:21:06 <elliott> where it all works for a bit and then collapses
23:21:14 <elliott> doesn't even get harder, just gets impossible
23:21:22 <Bike> impossible is harder than possible
23:21:54 <elliott> hey was Fiora around when a wall street journalist came here to interview chris pressey
23:21:59 <Bike> wow there are two other problems about atrices that are undecideable.
23:22:07 <elliott> i swear i'm not making that up
23:22:11 <Bike> "Determining whether a finite set of upper triangular 3 × 3 matrices with nonnegative integer entries generates a free semigroup." "Determining whether two finitely generated subsemigroups of M_n(Z) have a common element."
23:22:13 <elliott> he also asked like two questions about hexham
23:22:16 <Bike> subsemigroups, that's just beautiful.
23:22:16 * Fiora has no idea who that is?
23:22:27 <Bike> cpressey is elliott's religion
23:22:29 <Fiora> geez "post correspondence problem"
23:22:32 <Bike> i think he founded the site or whatever
23:22:33 <elliott> chris pressey is the guy who made befunge and lots of other esoteric languages, he used to be here a lot but now he isn't
23:22:37 <elliott> but he came back to do this interview
23:22:41 <Bike> Fiora: that's named after Post! it's not to do with letters i hate that
23:22:43 <HackEgo> cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse.
23:23:02 <Bike> Fiora: btw Post only had one arm. i like pointing this out because it's an odd little thing
23:23:07 <elliott> Bike: he didn't start the wiki or anything (esolangs are way older than the wiki)
23:23:16 <Fiora> ohhhh. I think this problem makes sense now
23:23:16 <Bike> (i know that much)
23:23:19 <elliott> but he popularised the term "esoteric" as it pertains to computing I believe
23:23:24 <Fiora> it can't be EXPTIME because the lists on either side can grow without bound
23:23:33 <Fiora> gosh that is an evil problem
23:23:52 <Bike> i think my favorite undecideable problem is just the word problem for groups
23:23:57 <Bike> nice'n'easy to understand
23:24:03 <Fiora> I guess it kind of intuitively makes sense that the matrix problem is kind of like the post corresopndance one
23:24:14 <elliott> Bike: mine is equality of functions
23:24:14 <Bike> "matrices are weird, and Post was weird, so..."
23:24:21 <Bike> elliott: too obvious
23:24:33 <elliott> people think you can compare functions all the time
23:24:34 <Fiora> Bike: ... easy? >_<
23:24:57 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: figuring out if two expressions of group operations represent the same element
23:25:20 <Bike> (obviously it's decideable for some groups)
23:25:35 <Bike> Fiora: what can i say i like groups
23:25:38 <Fiora> "two expressions of group operations" o_O
23:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "The mortal matrix problem: determining, given a finite set of n n matrices with integer entries, whether they can be multiplied in some order, possibly with repetition, to yield the zero matrix."
23:26:26 <elliott> you could say Bike is a groupie
23:26:41 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the one that started this conversation
23:26:49 <Fiora> sorry I guess I don't really get the group thing
23:27:18 <Bike> Fiora: like, does a*b*c = b*a*c or somethin
23:27:40 <kmc> Fiora: so you can describe a group as a set of generating elements + a set of relations that can simplify expressions
23:27:43 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group
23:27:50 <Fiora> Bike: wait, why would that be undecideable
23:28:14 <Bike> Fiora: because everything is terrible.
23:28:17 <kmc> and so the word problem is like 'can we transform this word into that word using these relations'
23:28:23 <kmc> or transform them both into the same word, anyway
23:28:32 * Fiora is completely lost
23:29:15 <Bike> there are like a billion undecideable problems to choose from
23:29:24 <elliott> the idea is that you can't do it for all groups ever (but it might be easy to do it for a particular group)
23:29:29 <elliott> n.b. i don't really undersatnd the word problem either
23:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i note that all the groups with undecidable word problems wp cites seem to be only remarkable for having unsolvable word problems
23:30:09 <Bike> how often do you construct a set of matrices you can't multiplicate together
23:30:22 <elliott> hmm, is the mortal matrix thing just a special case of the word problem???
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23:31:14 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/3/a/53add5b1c27847ffeeee892cfedb4984.png o____o
23:31:25 <Bike> Fiora: welcome 2 math
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23:32:46 <mnoqy> what a silly looking presentation
23:33:02 <shachaf> group theory isn't math hth
23:33:03 <Bike> wait, if you have your matrices can't you make a group with them as the generatotrs
23:33:42 <Bike> is that confusing
23:33:44 <mnoqy> you can take the free group over a set of matrices but that's just stupid
23:33:50 <mnoqy> because youre not using the matrices at all
23:33:58 <SgeoBot> ** Script error: money has no value
23:34:04 <shachaf> mnoqy: don't you tell me my free groups are stupid!!
23:34:17 <SgeoBot> (After I poked fun at $6 / $2 being $3)
23:34:25 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: o rite
23:34:47 <Bike> if the matrices are invertible can you solve the mortality problem
23:35:02 <mnoqy> yes: "theres no solution"
23:35:08 <mnoqy> bc invertible matrices never multiply to 0
23:36:58 <shachaf> what kind of algebraic structure do yo uneed to solve the morality problem
23:48:26 <shachaf> Track the status of your shipments, nickname your packages, create a personal watch list, and filter shipments to see the details you want. It’s an all-new tracking experience.
23:48:57 <kmc> does it celebrate anything
23:49:19 <Bike> celebrates shipmanship
23:50:12 <Fiora> Ship name: Rosemary Watchlist: Yes Ship status: Canon
23:50:27 <shachaf> how many canon are on that ship
23:50:51 <shachaf> fedex called me to say i'd have to be there for signing for a thing but i could change things via the tracking number
23:50:52 <Fiora> Ship contents: Kanaya Maryam, Rose LaLonde Status: Drunk
23:51:04 <shachaf> but a couple of the tracking number digits were cut off by bad reception or something
23:51:46 <Bike> wow, kmc, that putin story
23:52:57 <kmc> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/06/13/vladimir-putin-defends-the-u-s-on-spying-programs-drones-and-occupy-wall-street/
23:54:02 <Bike> news on twitter is weird. guy says WH announcement re: syria is unimportant compared to the jihad
23:54:31 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:54:44 <elliott> what announcement did i miss
23:54:48 <Fiora> that sounds like wonderful marketing material.
23:54:50 <kmc> U.S. to increase 'scope and scale' of aid to rebels
23:54:52 <Fiora> "PRISM: endorsed by putin"
23:55:15 <kmc> it's putin-tastic
23:55:20 <Bike> elliott: the white house said they'd step up aid, and also a bunch of important clerics declared jihad on the syrian government.
23:56:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, i wonder if this is some brilliant gambit by putin
23:57:43 <Bike> "ha HA! now the government will be forced to roll back the police state from Russian levels! IT WILL BE THEIR DOOM!"
23:57:49 <Bike> n.b. i assume putin is a comic book villain
23:58:08 <elliott> well can't he pretty much do whatever the hell he likes
23:58:12 <kmc> since when does america care what foreigners think of our government
23:58:38 <Bike> since we're being praised by the wrong foreigners
00:00:55 <kmc> https://github.com/wopot/jsgifkeylogger/blob/master/gifjs.asm cute but I don't totally see the security relevance
00:01:07 <kmc> i do like the use of assembler to build binary files that aren't machine code at all
00:01:49 <Bike> aw, it's not instructions
00:02:30 <Bike> i like the misspelling
00:02:57 <Bike> heigth; also, good
00:03:44 <Bike> i, too, was mistake once
00:04:35 <kmc> like it could be used to exploit sites with a very specific combination of file uploading, restricted user-specified HTML, and path and URL whitelisting
00:04:45 <kmc> a combination that doesn't seem very likely to come up in practice
00:04:49 <kmc> but maybe I'm missing something
00:04:53 <Bike> anything's possible online, right
00:07:25 <Fiora> kmc: that reminds me of the thing a while back where I tried one of those "smallest possible executable" things
00:07:33 <Fiora> someone had posted their own attempt so I spent a few hours poking at it and trying things
00:07:40 <Fiora> it was fun laying out the ELF header manually
00:07:42 <Bike> "turns out you can get linux to execute a negative amount of bytes"
00:08:02 <elliott> i wonder if you can exploit a filesystem bug like that
00:08:07 <elliott> like if they used signed types accidentally
00:08:13 <elliott> so you can convince it you have a -1 byte file
00:08:13 <Fiora> I wonder if it's remotely convenient to write a bitstream using an assembler, though
00:08:22 <elliott> and it'll read backwards because of the way they wrote their loop or something
00:08:23 <Fiora> like writing bytes is just "db whatever" and so on
00:08:27 <Fiora> but like, a bitstream would be trickier
00:08:27 <elliott> so you can store the file contents in the metadata
00:08:37 <elliott> imo someone should make this happen
00:08:41 <Fiora> oh gosh I'm thinking of writing a variable-length coder in yasm macros someone -stop me-
00:08:51 * Bike stares impassively
00:09:00 <kmc> i will not stand in the way of this
00:09:34 <pikhq> Fiora: Can I ask why?
00:09:36 <elliott> Fiora: at least you're in the right channel
00:09:41 <pikhq> Mind, this is probably awesome.
00:10:18 <Fiora> um. because like, the gif thing above
00:10:23 <Fiora> the idea of laying out a file in an assembler, right?
00:10:37 <Fiora> but like, assemblers only let you write bytes, not bits, usually
00:10:44 <Fiora> at least I think? I might be wrong
00:10:59 <pikhq> That is an amusing way of distributing a binary.
00:11:59 <pikhq> nasm lets you use binary literals.
00:17:19 <pikhq> Amusing thought: you could actually have a GPL-compliant program distributed only as a binary.
00:17:27 <pikhq> If you actually wrote it that way.
00:17:30 <olsner> Fiora: in nasm, %assign (etc) should be enough to let you write bitwise macros that output bytes as you go along
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00:21:24 <olsner> Fiora: in any case, do it
00:24:04 <Fiora> http://privatepaste.com/094d840fe8 okay I have no idea if this is right but it runs and the first 4 hex digits seem to be right I think
00:25:19 <Fiora> oh geez. now I'm imagining someone, like, writing a JPEG compressor in nasm macros
00:25:58 <Fiora> (probably faaar beyond me though <.<)
00:30:19 <Fiora> I think it only handles codes up to 32 bits long
00:30:31 <Fiora> actually I have no idea how nasm represents variables
00:30:40 <Fiora> like gosh what happens when you try to calculate something bigger than int_max
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00:31:17 <Bike> turns out it just uses GMP
00:32:39 <Fiora> oh gosh it is actual bignums
00:32:52 <Fiora> or, like, (200000000000000000000000000000<<1) does resolve to 400000000000000000000000000000
00:33:05 <Bike> i don't know what to believe any more
00:33:19 <Fiora> 1238273829327893192*973289472384729384729348923 resolves to 1205198882014363608197849789575338441444232216
00:33:28 <Fiora> I am kind of um. wow
00:33:57 <shachaf> > 1238273829327893192*973289472384729384729348923 == 1205198882014363608197849789575338441444232216
00:34:03 <shachaf> Why wouldn't it use bignums?
00:34:28 <Fiora> in nasm it overflows and complains that my big constsant thing won't fit in 64 bits
00:34:30 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't that the reason nasm isn't cross-platform or sth
00:34:31 <Fiora> in yasm it works okay
00:34:47 <Fiora> that is super weird
00:36:42 <Bike> what's going on with those integers there i don't understand
00:37:03 <Fiora> in yasm it just kind of does what you'd expect and works in nasm it overflows ?
00:37:32 <Bike> oh, i missed the multiplication.
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00:42:21 * Fiora peeeeers at the code, grepgregperpegrep
00:42:25 <Fiora> struct yasm_intnum {
00:42:25 <Fiora> long l; /* integer value (for integers <32 bits) */
00:42:25 <Fiora> wordptr bv; /* bit vector (for integers >=32 bits) */
00:42:27 <Fiora> enum { INTNUM_L, INTNUM_BV } type;
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00:42:42 <elliott> yasm, scales to 1024-bit cpus
00:42:52 <Bike> what's a wordptr
00:43:22 <Bike> oh. wouldn't that be a vector of words
00:43:36 <Fiora> http://guest.engelschall.com/~sb/download/ and it uses this thing for bignum math?
00:43:41 <Fiora> or um, the thing labelled bit-vector
00:43:42 <shachaf> typedefs of pointers are the devil hth :'(
00:43:49 <pikhq> Well, actually, it might be a vector of "words" in the x86 sense.
00:43:55 <pikhq> Making that a uint16_t*
00:44:11 <Bike> The use of a camel in combination with Perl and Perl-related topics
00:44:12 <Bike> is a trademark of O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
00:44:13 <pikhq> It's funny that the system word on my system is a "quad word".
00:44:53 <shachaf> That's Intelese and/or Microsoftese for you.
00:44:55 <Bike> Wait, so how's it know how many words it's using.
00:45:21 <Bike> how many bytey things.
00:45:26 <Bike> i'm not good with computers sorry
00:45:33 <pikhq> Maybe the first word is a count?
00:45:46 <pikhq> shachaf: Intelese really.
00:45:54 <Fiora> it's a pointer to a Bit-Vector object, I think
00:45:56 <elliott> Bike: could be 0 terminated
00:45:57 <Fiora> bit-vector is a library
00:45:59 <pikhq> And really makes sense from a legacy point of view.
00:46:04 <Fiora> or more like a single c file apparently @_@
00:46:15 <elliott> that's c libraries for you
00:46:21 <pikhq> x86 asm is for a system with a 16-bit word.
00:46:28 <Fiora> I'm guessing the author didn't want any dependencies for yasm? still wow
00:46:34 <Bike> well it's not like naïve bignums are hard right
00:46:43 <Bike> so how often do bignums come up in macroassembly
00:46:51 <pikhq> Bike: Merely tedious if you don't care much about performance.
00:46:52 <Fiora> I... I have no idea @_@
00:46:59 <Fiora> I don't think I ever touched them before this
00:47:07 <Fiora> but I'm probably not like a good sample or anything
00:47:09 <Bike> pikhq: the algorithms i learned in elementary school are good enough for my PC, dammit!
00:47:24 <Bike> Fiora: maybe they come up in intermediate results and you don't notice.
00:47:31 <Bike> this might bother me now
00:47:55 <Fiora> but then it'd break on nasm
00:48:24 <Bike> yeah, i guess it would.
00:48:37 <Bike> elliott: btw wouldn't 0 terminated be pretty bad for bignums since most of the algorithms go right to left
00:48:54 <elliott> 0 initiated.......................
00:48:55 <Bike> maybe you could store them backwards.
00:49:23 <pikhq> 0 terminated would be awful.
00:49:31 <pikhq> And probably unworkable.
00:49:59 <pikhq> Seeing as 32 0b0s in a row is quite reasonable for sufficiently large numbers.
00:50:11 <Bike> wow i didn't even think of that wtf
00:50:30 <pikhq> And no, switching to BCD won't help there.
00:50:38 <Bike> "exactly what i was thinking"
00:50:43 <pikhq> Well. Actually, 8 bits per digit BCD works just fine. :P
00:50:58 <elliott> pikhq: the idea is you increment by one
00:50:59 <shachaf> wordptr is unsigned int * btw
00:51:02 <Bike> let's just write numbers in unary
00:51:06 <elliott> or just reserve one bit as a tag bit or w/e
00:51:13 <pikhq> Heck, at that point you might as well use ASCII. :P
00:51:26 <pikhq> ASCII: best bignum format?
00:51:59 <Bike> finally, a use for COMBINING CYRILLIC MILLIONS
00:52:17 <Fiora> reminds me of how intel added an example code bit in their new optimization manual for converting 64-bit integers into base 10 (for like, printf)
00:53:25 <Bike> more sophisticated than mod by 10, i assume
00:53:55 <Fiora> using avx2 and stuff
00:54:12 <Bike> convert between bases in O(1) time!!
00:54:22 <Fiora> "The AVX2 version of numeric conversion across the dynamic range of 3/9/17 output digits are approximately 23/57/54 cycles per input, compared to standard library implement ion’s range of 85/260/560 cycles per input."
00:55:07 <Fiora> they're doing "vectorized montgomery reduction"
00:56:05 <Fiora> so I guess, like, they're calculating (x%10),(x%100),(x%1000) and so on in simd?
00:56:12 <Fiora> I don't know what montgomery reduction is
00:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> "In arithmetic computation, Montgomery reduction is an algorithm introduced in 1985 by Peter Montgomery that allows modular arithmetic to be performed efficiently when the modulus is large (typically several hundred bits).
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01:42:36 <kmc> today i saw a tree near my house that was like a whole ecosystem
01:43:15 <kmc> tree, two different plants growing on the tree, moss, lichen, algae, tiny Mycena mushrooms, ants, red spider, snail, black spider weaving a web attached to the snail
01:43:45 <kmc> i wasn't 'on' the tree elliott
01:44:28 <elliott> i thought you were all about being "on" the trees
01:44:39 <kmc> i think the snail wasn't dead, just too slow for the spider to notice
01:44:40 <Bike> damn i was hoping dendrophilia
01:44:43 <kmc> elliott: ah ok
01:44:51 <Bike> snail defense mechanism
01:45:13 <Bike> maybe the spider and snail have developed a mutualistic partnership, where the snail makes the web move approprirately
01:45:19 <Fiora> snails are adorable
01:45:25 <kmc> http://cuteoverload.com/2009/02/18/junior-snailio/
01:45:34 <Fiora> awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:45:49 <elliott> hey kmc why does terminal.app often think links include some of the timestamp on the next line
01:45:54 <Fiora> oh my gosh that is so adorable
01:45:55 <elliott> and more generally lines contain multiple lines
01:45:59 <elliott> and then when i copy paste them the \ns are gone
01:46:13 <kmc> don't know
01:46:15 <zzo38> I put the sequent calculus of Turing machine: http://zzo38computer.org/tex/turing_sequent.tex Please tell me if there is a mistake.
01:46:18 <Fiora> it's amusing when like, it rains here and all the snails come out, and you walk outside and find them all having sex or something
01:46:26 <Bike> wow that size difference
01:46:29 <Fiora> ('cause they're snails)
01:46:41 <Bike> horny sluts the lot
01:46:42 <kmc> yeah it rained today and there were lots of snails out
01:46:44 <kmc> also mushrooms
01:47:00 <Fiora> there was this really big snail crawling up the wall the other day like, actually really fast (for a snail)
01:47:05 <SgeoBot> I wonder if it would be a bad idea to link work stuff here once it's public
01:47:09 <Fiora> and I was imagining it making cute little grunting noises each time it pushed up
01:47:11 <kmc> we saw some of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidulariaceae
01:47:20 <kmc> only they were smaller and yellower
01:47:21 <kmc> Fiora: haha
01:47:44 <Fiora> it's cool how they climb, like, just as fast as they crawl horizontally
01:48:04 <Fiora> there's also this one snail that lives on the wall outside my door. she wakes up every time the sun hits and moves a little bit to the side to stay in the shade
01:49:10 <Fiora> (another great thing about snails: you can use any pronoun you want to refer to them and you'll never be wrong)
01:51:22 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Snail_sanctuary%5E_-_geograph.org.uk_-_215817.jpg oh gosh
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01:52:59 <kmc> SgeoBot: i promise to not try very hard to hack your company's websites
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01:53:56 <zzo38> I said yesterday that I would put the sequent calculus representation of Turing machine into the computer on the weekend; well, I did it early. Can you please review it, to tell me if you found a mistake, or another comment/question/complaints?
02:01:59 <Fiora> wow. snails mate after firing a "love dart" into the other.
02:02:00 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_darts
02:03:20 <Fiora> wow, snail courtship lasts up to 6 hours @_@
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02:11:19 <Bike> every few weeks my computer forgets that wlan0 exists
02:11:24 <Bike> and i have to do a hard reset to fix it
02:11:26 <Fiora> animal mating is way more interesting than human mating okay :<
02:11:29 <Bike> i hate computers. they make me miss snail porn
02:12:02 <zzo38> Bike: Maybe you should try to fix it some other way, if it does that there is probably something wrong with it?
02:12:04 <pikhq> Fiora: I dunno, there's a lot of depth to human mating.
02:12:35 <oerjan> hm what is the deepest human mating incident
02:12:37 <Bike> zzo38: yes, there's something wrong with it and i don't know how to fix it because the solution isn't as simple as ./configure && make && make install which is the limit of my capabilities
02:12:44 <pikhq> oerjan: Define "deep".
02:12:48 <Bike> oerjan: some engineers in the kola borehole
02:12:54 <Bike> the joke is depth,
02:13:03 <pikhq> Deep Throat is pretty deep.
02:13:25 <Bike> that reminds me of a great quote about bird semen
02:14:05 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> that reminds me of a great quote about bird semen
02:14:09 <HackEgo> 1051) <Bike> that reminds me of a great quote about bird semen
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02:15:26 <Fiora> pikhq: is... that a pun
02:16:05 <SgeoBot> pikhq, I am listening to the slow version of Magia using SennHeiser headphones
02:16:50 <pikhq> Fiora: I've got about half a degree in puns.
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02:18:52 <pikhq> Which is roughly the temperature parts of my home town are at right now.
02:18:58 * Bike looks for quote, finds detailed drawing of bird soliciting for sex
02:20:32 -!- SgeoBot has changed nick to Sgeo.
02:22:41 <Bike> i don't think i have what it takes to be a zoology fieldworker.
02:23:15 <Bike> disturbingly enough, yes.
02:25:21 <Bike> oh, hey, i found what i was thinking of. "My career in sperm competition has been a rollercoaster ride, energised by a number of particularly special moments."
02:25:48 <Bike> the essay this is from is titled "Undiminished passion"
02:28:34 <Sgeo> I think I know which phone I want
02:28:38 <Sgeo> Not certain though
02:30:05 <lambdabot> `<' (imported from Data.Ord), `<=' (imported from Data.Ord),
02:31:08 <Fiora> pikhq: so like, an associate's?
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03:03:58 <zzo38> What do you expect (<~) to be?
03:07:00 <Bike> back to pdfs: should i keep the crazy-ass ultrafinitist zeilberger pdf
03:07:22 <oerjan> zzo38: something from lens.
03:08:09 <oerjan> but then i heard lambdabot doesn't have lens at the moment for a stupid safehaskell reason.
03:08:25 <kmc> ultrafinitists are the best
03:09:26 <Bike> REAL (i.e. discrete) analysis is conceptually simpler than traditional 'real' (continuous) analysis, and of course is much truer. But it is, on the whole, technically more difficult. Hence 'Naked Brain' humans had no choice but to pursue the latter kind.
03:10:00 <kmc> what's discrete analysis in this context
03:10:49 <Bike> Analysis for crazy people.
03:11:32 <Bike> Df(x) := (f(x+h) - f(x))/h "where h is the Fundamental mesh size, a Mathematical Universal constant, that unlike Planck's constant, we will never know, but it is very tiny."
03:12:00 <elliott> c'mon zeilberger isn't really crazy
03:12:02 <kmc> ok i see what you mean.
03:12:21 <Bike> elliott are you reading this
03:12:33 <Bike> this is time cube level discourse here
03:12:37 <kmc> it's like a PLANK LENGTH but for the PLATONIC REALM
03:12:40 <Bike> i mean obviously he's not a crank
03:12:45 <Bike> but this is fucking nuts
03:13:07 <elliott> ultrafinitism is not really that nuts
03:13:13 <elliott> i mean it's not like mathematicians don't go off on platonic type philosophising all the time
03:13:21 <Bike> yeah but do they do it in allcaps
03:13:23 <mnoqy> ultrafinitism is 100% nuts though
03:13:24 <elliott> where the information content amounts here to "we work with h as a free variable"
03:14:29 <mnoqy> "fundamental mesh size" eughs me out
03:15:06 <Bike> The main stumbling block in the further development of the theory of Discrete Analytic Functions is the fact that the property of being discrete-analytic is not preserved under multiplication. But using the discrete Leibniz rule one can express the derivative of a product, and then the product is "almost analytic". So I am sure that the full arsenal of continuous complex analysis can be discretized, but the details might be too complicated fo
03:15:44 <elliott> btw finite calculus is extremely cool
03:16:16 <zzo38> What is a "fundamental mesh size"?
03:16:22 <Bike> are the details too complicated for humans
03:16:47 <zzo38> That "Df(x) := (f(x+h) - f(x))/h" doesn't seem to make much sense to me
03:16:48 <Bike> zzo38: the difference between two points on the real line.
03:17:27 <zzo38> Bike: O, OK, well, it isn't an actual number that can be measured, I think.
03:17:44 <mnoqy> its like a derivative but with a philisophical twist
03:18:11 <elliott> hm i wonder if i'm sleeping
03:18:17 <mnoqy> yes this is a dream
03:18:27 <mnoqy> dont listen to bike he is the Deciever
03:18:37 <elliott> i meant i wonder if i'm sleeping tonight but ty
03:19:35 <mnoqy> how about nick Deceiver
03:19:52 <Bike> Neo-Pythagoreanism or: Anaxagoras deserved to be drowned
03:20:36 <zzo38> If that is how the "fundamental mesh size" is defined, then it can't be a real number.
03:21:17 <elliott> Bike: i'm reading the book are you proud of me
03:21:23 <elliott> mnoqy won't read it with me because he's ""busy""" :-|
03:21:42 <Bike> It is utter nonsense to say that √2 is irrational, because this presupposes that it exists, as a number or distance. The truth is that there is no such number or distance. What does exist is the symbol, which is just shorthand for an ideal object x that satisfies x² = 2.
03:21:47 <Bike> hellooooo platonism
03:22:41 <zzo38> Well, I suppose whether or not it exists as a distance in physical space is really a different question, although it does mathematically exist, regardless.
03:23:12 <Bike> Blessed are the Δifference Equations for They Shall Inherit Math
03:24:49 <zzo38> Whether or not there is such a number, depends on what number system it is in; since it is irrational, that means the rational numbers has no square root of 2, but the real numbers does have.
03:24:51 <Bike> Andrew Wiles' alleged 'proof' of FLT, while a crowning human achievement, is not rigorous, since it uses continuous analysis, which is meaningless.
03:25:13 <kmc> using the word 'alleged' *and* putting "proof" in scarequotes
03:25:24 <zzo38> Why are you writing such nonsensical things?
03:25:40 <Bike> Because I think mocking elliott is funny. I'll stop.
03:25:54 <kmc> are you making fun of elliott because of ultrafinitism?
03:26:16 <Bike> Well, mostly because this guy specifically is nutso.
03:26:28 <Bike> The only other ultrafinitist I know of is the one from the anecdote, so he's cool.
03:27:51 <kmc> that's a great anecdote
03:27:58 <kmc> if it's the one anecdote about ultrafinitism that i know of
03:28:11 <mnoqy> i like that anecdote too
03:28:20 <mnoqy> [assuming it's the one i know of]
03:29:14 <Bike> how many anecdotes about ultrafinitists can there possibly be, i wonder
03:29:19 <zzo38> My philosophy is that mathematics is the real reality, not the physical universe and so on.
03:29:21 <kmc> finitely many
03:29:29 <elliott> i think lecturing the guy for ranting and mocking people he disagrees with is a bit silly
03:29:33 <Bike> zzo38: platonist!! hides in shelter
03:29:36 <elliott> since have you noticed how much everyone ever does that
03:29:48 <Bike> they don't do it quite so amusingly
03:29:52 <elliott> it's not like any of it was submitted to a real journal or anything
03:29:57 <zzo38> Bike: O, what is *your* philosophy of this?
03:30:20 <Bike> of math? i suppose i'm a materialist.
03:30:54 <zzo38> Bike: Can you please be a bit more specific?
03:31:22 <mnoqy> my philosophy of math is "philosophy of math is silly"
03:31:37 <Bike> Also a good philosophy.
03:31:52 <Bike> But why not: I don't think mathematical objects "exist" in any meaningful or usefully talked about sense. Math is just a kind of useful thinking.
03:32:28 <elliott> sounds like formalism to me
03:32:55 <Bike> yeah, something like that.
03:33:02 <Bike> so i'll probably go full platonic at some point derp.
03:33:28 <mnoqy> my philosophy of things existing is "talking about things existing is silly"
03:33:56 <Bike> i think hilbert was kind of wack tho.
03:33:58 <Bike> so there's that.
03:34:09 <mnoqy> mnoqy philosophy: Q: what does it mean for something to exist / A: dont ask that question shut up shut up shut up
03:34:09 <oerjan> well your philosophy of things existing doesn't really exist, so there
03:34:28 <Bike> mnoqy: would you call yourself a sillyist
03:34:36 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. Are you on drugs?
03:34:40 <lambdabot> Raguel says: does it unsettle anyone that there isn't a formal semantics for haskell? its like someone got drunk, invented a gadget, then when he woke up, couldn't quite draw a blueprint
03:34:43 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
03:34:58 <Bike> is that shachaf
03:35:49 <zzo38> Can you understand my implementation of a Turning machine in the sequent calculus?
03:36:16 <zzo38> Did you read it? Did you find a mistake within it?
03:36:34 <Bike> mnoqy: but seriously philosophy of math has /some/ use, if only to motivate weirdos to make non-classical logics etc
03:37:07 <mnoqy> Bike: ok so long as they need it to motivate them....i do like those non-classical logics
03:37:09 <Bike> maybe the mathematics establishment should just recruit in asylums to skip the middlemen
03:37:26 <zzo38> Well, yes perhaps it can motivate some things.
03:37:29 <Bike> non-classical logics are p. cool 'Bike stamp of approval'
03:37:57 <zzo38> Not only in mathematics, but I think this kind of motivation can be using in science too, in order to form hypotheses and so on.
03:38:37 <elliott> mnoqy's philosophy of mathematics allergy reminds me of the philosophy of mathematics allergy i used to have
03:38:56 <kmc> where's shachaf
03:38:58 <elliott> i also used to hate talking about anything i completely arbitrarily categorised as "politics"
03:39:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `i: not found
03:39:15 <Bike> now i rant about the NSA on twitter so that went well
03:39:18 <elliott> it was the "same kind of thing" i think
03:40:06 <Bike> hm i wonder if i can apply this "useful crazies" philosophy to psychology stuff none of you give a damn about
03:40:11 <elliott> i've forgotten how old bike is HELP
03:40:13 <Bike> i require more research on this
03:40:18 <kmc> `run printf "#!/bin/sh\n\necho 'DID YOU REALLY'\n" > 'bin/`i' && chmod +x 'bin/`i'
03:40:24 <kmc> ``i grew out of both''
03:41:24 <Bike> i haven't read any [psychologist's name] directly yet, i don't know if he was crazy. i know chomsky is kind of wack and skinner is super wack. everybody's wack
03:41:43 <augur> chomsky aint whack :|
03:41:49 <kmc> chomsky is an original gangsta
03:42:01 <augur> no hes really not :|
03:42:27 <mnoqy> do you have a ping on chomsky
03:42:33 <kmc> the great debate between Bike, augur, and mnoqy
03:42:37 <kmc> also does augur highlight on chomsky
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03:51:13 <zzo38> Can you please tell me if you like this "turing_sequent"?
03:51:29 <zzo38> And what the mistake is?
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04:07:58 <tswett> Heheh. Noit o' mnain gelb has materials called "copper", "zinc", and "metal".
04:12:30 <kmc> wire: the magnificent element
04:16:37 <tswett> Hmmm. So apparently I wrote this thing called evolver.py that creates a random subleq program and executes it.
04:19:01 <tswett> There's nothing determining the fitness of a program.
04:20:16 -!- myname has joined.
04:20:54 <tswett> So I'd like to give the programs fitness functions somehow.
04:21:33 <tswett> ¿Qué función de fitidad debo usar?
04:21:50 <Bike> optimize for good ascii art porn
04:23:27 -!- sprocklem has joined.
04:24:31 <tswett> I think I want to do rock-paper-scissors.
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05:03:23 <elliott> hey Bike, you should read this book for me. it's too long
05:03:47 <Bike> What does reading a book for you entail?
05:05:36 <Bike> that's just how i normally read books though
05:05:39 <Bike> what gives it the elliott touch
05:09:37 <elliott> because i told you to do it
05:09:59 <Bike> what do you get out of this though
05:10:32 <mnoqy> maybe ill read it once i stop having to do things
05:10:45 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:24:07 <tswett> There, now you can compete two genomes with each other to see which one is better at rock-paper-scissors.
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05:40:20 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey mnoqy philosophy is p. good can i have some more
05:41:05 <mnoqy> shachaf: "sure" - mnoqy philosophy
05:45:58 <kmc> not much, you?
05:49:09 <shachaf> i thought you were pinging me "maybe not"
05:49:16 <kmc> if so, don't remember why
05:49:44 <kmc> i'm telling people in another channel why they should all take LSD
05:49:48 <elliott> 04:38:56 <kmc> where's shachaf
05:50:02 <elliott> kmc: is it #lisp "continuity"
05:50:03 <kmc> "Three: Whenever shachaf is not on screen, all of the other characters should say 'Where's shachaf?'"
05:50:13 <kmc> shachaf: don't want to say because 'everyone will invade'
05:50:17 <kmc> elliott: that too
05:50:26 <mnoqy> telling people in another channel why they should all take LSD is hardly "not much", imo
05:50:53 <Bike> just a day in the life of drugzjokeman
05:50:55 <kmc> it's a pretty normal thing for me to do
05:51:01 <kmc> Bike: this is serious business
05:51:14 <Bike> drugzeriousman
05:51:21 <shachaf> by everybody do you mean "me+Sgeo"
05:51:43 <elliott> i will definitely fucking join #drugz
05:52:00 <elliott> somehow even when i say #drugz and mean it as a channel it looks like a hashtag
05:52:04 <elliott> mysterious properties of the word drugz
05:53:03 <elliott> if i take drugz will i be as cool as kmc; life's eternal mysterys
05:53:04 <kmc> 01:45 < kmc> i think we are all fundamentally lonely because we don't have access to any interior mental states other than our own
05:53:07 <kmc> 01:45 < kmc> and temporarily modifying the way your brain works is a way to escape that a bit
05:53:41 <shachaf> took me three tries not to read that as "inferior mental states"
05:53:57 <mnoqy> "interior mental states" is a very #drugz thing to say #drugz
05:54:25 <elliott> does caffeine count as a drugz
05:54:39 <shachaf> kmc: /set show_nickmode_empty off
05:54:39 <Bike> man i barely have access to my own mental state >:
05:54:42 <shachaf> elliott: /script load splitlong.pl
05:55:06 <shachaf> i have access to alt. mental states
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05:55:12 <kmc> ulterior mental states
05:55:49 <elliott> kmc: im sorry i have superpowers
05:58:24 <Bike> hey this reminds me of a pet peeve. kmc when you're talking about mental states and other psychological stuff don't refer to it as neuroscientific or anything, psychology is perfectly good. thx
05:58:52 <kmc> i don't follow
05:59:07 <Bike> it's just a peeve
05:59:16 <kmc> but did i do something which exhibits this peevish behavior
05:59:33 <kmc> ok well I'm still not sure what you meant
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06:05:57 <mnoqy> bike is this about people talking about psychological stuff but they think psychology is rubbish pseudoscience so they talk about it terms of the physical brain being in a weird state??? i may or may not have seen this happen like once
06:06:28 <kmc> software is rubbish pseudoscience, that's why i describe my programs in terms of what they do to transistors
06:06:37 <Bike> mnoqy: yeah basically that.
06:06:38 <shachaf> is Bike a neuropseudoscientist
06:07:29 <Bike> what set this off: i read that paper about rubberhose crypto again and it's described as "neuroscience" even though it's based on cog psych.
06:07:37 <kmc> [joke making fun of freud, ignores every psychologist since freud]
06:08:02 <Bike> that's the crypt/analysis/
06:08:05 <kmc> elliott: your comedic timing is impeccable
06:08:16 <shachaf> psychology is such a fræud
06:09:41 <Bike> "Neuroscience Meets Cryptography: Designing Crypto Primitives Secure Against Rubber Hose Attacks"
06:09:46 <Bike> read it or whatever i guess
06:10:04 <shachaf> Bike: Did you read _Three Men in a Boat_?
06:10:26 <shachaf> Did I mention it was published in 1889?
06:10:38 <Bike> no, but that was easiliy noticeable in the wikipedia article.
06:11:25 <shachaf> hey #esoteric needs more petitions
06:12:15 <Bike> petition to introduce more petitions: sign here ←
06:12:37 <shachaf> petition to introduce more petitions: sign here X ←
06:12:47 <kmc> this is because the bot spammed ##crypto with https://www.change.org/petitions/mtgox-add-litecoin-to-mtgox ?
06:12:50 <kmc> great petition imo
06:12:58 <kmc> it really sells the cause when every sentence contains a grammatical error
06:13:42 <shachaf> what if every sentence my gramma says contains a grammatical error
06:15:37 <Bike> why would you put this on change.org
06:16:18 <elliott> should put it on the whitehouse.gov thing instead imo
06:16:31 <shachaf> do they have a white house in .uk
06:17:09 <elliott> who was confused with the White House on at least one (1) occasion
06:17:16 <Bike> there's a russian one and an american one isn't that ENOUGH universe
06:18:23 <kmc> hey you whitehouse, ha ha charade you are
06:18:45 <elliott> kmc: that is what i was thinking of
06:18:46 <shachaf> hey did you see my moustache
06:18:49 <elliott> though the confusion may be apocryphal
06:18:53 <shachaf> whoa dude that word is weird
06:19:03 <shachaf> the american spelling drops the o instead of the u
06:20:27 <shachaf> kmc: do you get the feeling that person is just there to argue and not listen
06:20:43 <elliott> do i have to join this fuckn crypto channel
06:21:08 <Bike> well it sounds pretty bad from these reports!
06:23:03 <elliott> i'm getting too tired for this hott book
06:25:14 <Bike> @google hott book
06:25:15 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: user error (https not supported)
06:25:34 <Bike> shachaf won't survive this, elliott.
06:26:06 <Bike> metasepia..............................
06:26:21 <Bike> without a bot to search i feel very isolated.
06:26:38 <shachaf> mnoqy will be your search bot
06:27:01 <lambdabot> Title: Fuck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
06:27:04 <shachaf> !mnoqy nutrition facts of a carrot
06:27:07 <lambdabot> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/books/review/Roach-t.html?pagewanted=all
06:27:07 <lambdabot> Title: Book Review - 'Cold - Adventures In the World�s Frozen Places,' by Bill Str...
06:27:10 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: user error (https not supported)
06:27:17 <elliott> probably it's trying to read the title of an https url
06:27:17 <mnoqy> first result is https'y?
06:27:26 <elliott> WELL that goes on the todo list
06:27:36 <shachaf> what's on the todo list now
06:27:37 <lambdabot> 0. SamB: A way to get multiple results from a google search
06:27:37 <lambdabot> 1. dons: improve formatting of @dict
06:27:37 <lambdabot> 3. lispy: don't let lambdabot's prettyprinter split the sequence @foo across lines
06:27:37 <lambdabot> 4. TheHunter: priviledged users should get priviledged listcommands.
06:27:43 <lambdabot> 6. lispy: haddock gives a link from a type signature to the types. It would be nice if it also let you find functions in the given module that use a type.
06:27:47 <lambdabot> 8. dcoutts: implement @cool list, as a clone of the @todo(-add) commands
06:27:49 <lambdabot> 9. dons: there's some bug in the 'when i left' code of @seen
06:27:55 <lambdabot> 11. beelsebob_: @tell command - relays a message to someone when they next speak
06:27:57 <lambdabot> 12. dons: @seen on lambdabot should report lambdabot's channels too
06:27:59 <lambdabot> 13. ski: when printing first lines of infinite things (or all cases with nonexact), should say 'at least'
06:28:01 <lambdabot> 14. ski: provide '@more <number>', at least for privmsg
06:28:03 <mnoqy> shachaf: elliott told me to tell you to stop spamming
06:28:03 <Bike> @type 1 :: Int
06:28:07 <mnoqy> shachaf: i think it's serious
06:28:16 <shachaf> why didn't he tell me himself
06:28:18 <elliott> shachaf: mnoqy told me to tell him to tell you to stop spamming :-(
06:28:34 <elliott> the truth is... i am mnoqy
06:28:46 <shachaf> ok i'm putting elliott on /ignore
06:28:48 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v mnoqy.
06:29:11 <kmc> person in ##crypto is claiming that at least 10% of the bitcoin network power is compromised botnet machines
06:29:25 <Bike> is that plausible?
06:29:33 <kmc> i have no way of knowing
06:29:42 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v kmc.
06:29:51 <shachaf> It is very plausible that people in ##crypto will claim things.
06:30:25 <elliott> looks like the https thing is some other library's fault
06:32:04 <elliott> shachaf: am i on /ignore now
06:32:46 <kmc> why do i have voice
06:32:59 <Bike> is that a serious question
06:33:34 <mnoqy> reason probably similar to that of why i have voice
06:33:56 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you saying kmc is the best
06:34:15 <mnoqy> i don't know why i'm +v
06:34:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v mnoqy.
06:34:30 <shachaf> imo you can't both be the best
06:34:41 <shachaf> see http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2952
06:34:43 <Bike> glad we got that sorted
06:35:20 <elliott> shachaf: like referencing bible verses
06:35:32 <elliott> wow i thought that was a super mega link for like five whole seconds
06:35:33 <Bike> what's happening
06:35:39 <Bike> i thought it was super mega too
06:35:42 <Bike> i feel betrayed
06:36:48 <shachaf> Bike: hey speaking of super mega
06:36:54 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
06:37:12 <mnoqy> wow lots of super mega recently!!!
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06:37:54 <shachaf> Bike: what's with all the mustaches on super mega
06:38:05 <Bike> i don't know. i'm not a super megxpert.
06:38:17 <elliott> @ask shachaf am i on ignore
06:38:48 <shachaf> @tell elliott yes, see above
06:39:04 <elliott> @tell shachaf i understand that's the kind of thing that's not meant to happen!!
06:41:20 <elliott> @tell shachaf i was making a homoros reference
06:41:46 <Bike> you're fucking
06:42:09 <mnoqy> "guys you're fucking fuck" - bike, voice of today's youth
06:42:25 <Bike> you know it's true
06:42:39 <kmc> you can't fuck in here! this is the sex room
06:43:00 <Bike> it's a shame that isn't a song lyric.
06:43:18 <elliott> kmc: i've never watched dr strangelove
06:43:23 <elliott> does that go before or after lsd
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06:43:58 <shachaf> _Dr. Strangelove_ is good.
06:44:06 <mnoqy> dr strangelove is good
06:44:07 <elliott> what about the version without the underscores
06:44:10 <mnoqy> ive never seen lsd
06:44:22 <elliott> what about the version without the underscores but with the dot and with one of the capitals
06:44:39 <shachaf> Dr. Strangelove or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb is good.
06:45:03 <mnoqy> how about in camlcase
06:45:46 <shachaf> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DrStrangeLove
06:45:53 <Bike> dr bloodmoney, or how we got along after the bomb
06:46:36 <shachaf> Bike: Did you watch _Dr. Strangelove_?
06:46:43 <Bike> i watched jerkcity
06:47:52 <Bike> athens wasn't a jerkcity for killing socrates!
06:47:55 <Bike> i mean, he was a jerk.
06:48:22 <Bike> but not the jerkcity
06:48:31 <Bike> because he wasn't a city.
06:48:34 <Bike> i mean we all know the syllogism.
06:48:50 <mnoqy> i'd watch a jerkcity film
06:49:05 <elliott> nobody really has a choice in fact
06:49:27 <Bike> all men are mortal;
06:49:49 <shachaf> It doesn't talk about cities.
06:49:54 <Bike> that's the one
06:49:58 <Bike> no but it says he's a man.
06:50:08 <shachaf> But it doesn't say he's not a city.
06:51:06 <elliott> does it say whether or not he'd watch a jerkcity film
06:51:49 <shachaf> kmc: i am very irritable lately what do i do
06:52:08 <kmc> do you know why?
06:53:08 <shachaf> Does the + mean that you're my attorney?
06:53:21 <Bike> http://wondermark.com/943/ kmc versus realty
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06:55:45 <kmc> shachaf: does the start of irritability coïncide with some other change
06:57:22 <kmc> Bike: there's a restaurant down the street and their menu contains wordart where the name of the restaurant is rendered anti-aliased on top of a white background and then all the non-white pixels were composited on top of a dark image
06:57:42 <kmc> is there a name for that particular kind of fuckup
06:58:19 <mnoqy> i mean, that sort of fuckup
06:58:21 <mnoqy> not that restaurant
06:59:14 <shachaf> Bike: http://davidmalki.tumblr.com/post/52931217555/hey-its-a-comic-wondermark-943-dont-give-it
06:59:30 <shachaf> Much nicer, isn't it? 2x2, bigger text.
06:59:49 <Bike> tumblr sucks, though
07:01:37 <shachaf> It's amazing how uninterested I am in helping people as soon as I find out they're using e.g. Yesod/conduit.
07:01:48 <shachaf> I bet some people feel the same way about lens.
07:01:59 <mnoqy> "take it to -lens"
07:04:52 <shachaf> Sgeo: what is your bot prefix
07:05:09 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
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07:43:53 <kmc> shachaf: why uninterested
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10:33:38 <Taneb> I don't think so, Phantom_Hoover
10:33:47 <Taneb> fizzie, you should hear my sick beats
10:33:56 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't think so
10:34:03 <Taneb> Don't have any bubons
10:34:05 <fizzie> How about the bucolic plague?
10:34:28 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you have
10:34:34 <Taneb> I thus far have not watched it
10:35:17 <shachaf> that's the thing with scorpion isn't it
10:36:27 <shachaf> i think someone showed me one episode once
10:38:35 <shachaf> is that episode representative
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11:13:41 <shachaf> hey mnoqy if a matrix is really a linear function, what's a determinant
11:15:38 <mnoqy> the way i did determinants was as follows:
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11:17:42 <shachaf> is the joke that you didn't do determinants
11:17:57 <mnoqy> first define determinants on matrices over a field F axiomatically as: alternating multilinear function (F^n)^n -> F s.t. det(I) = 1
11:18:12 <mnoqy> you derive a bunch of properties of determinants
11:18:38 <mnoqy> like det(A^{-1}) = det(A)^{-1}, and det(AB) = det(A)det(B)
11:18:53 <mnoqy> AND THEN since all matrix representations of a linear function are similar
11:19:28 <mnoqy> you define det(f) := det([f]_{arbitrary basis})
11:20:24 <mnoqy> i can elaborate further if it wasnt clear but thats the short version
11:20:55 <shachaf> i wish i wasn't falling asleep right now :'(
11:21:08 <shachaf> maybe i'll ask you more tomrorrowr
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13:11:04 <elliott> i connected to chat.eu.freenode.net
13:11:09 <elliott> and get a server in new jersey
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13:13:08 <fizzie> Perhaps that's New Jersey, Italy.
13:13:25 <fizzie> chat.eu.freenode.net is an alias for chat.freenode.net.
13:14:08 <fizzie> http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml has also removed the continental aliases for Europe and US.
13:14:57 <fizzie> I think the only conclusion you can draw is that some sort of Lorentz contraction has brought Europe and the states together.
13:17:40 <AnotherTest> Resulting velocity: 0 - Displacement x: 1.088
13:21:18 <elliott> i assign fizzie to ask #freenode
13:21:41 <fizzie> I assign #freenode to ##esoteric and then you can ask here.
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13:29:03 <elliott> I wonder if I should just connect to holmes.freenode.net
13:29:06 <elliott> it has 1 ms ping from my server
13:33:16 <elliott> fizzie: would that be a "good idea"
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13:42:34 <elliott> fizzie i am literally incapable of making decisions without your help
13:43:40 <Koen_> why, is fizzie Keeper of the Coin?
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13:44:32 <Koen_> I've always hated logic lessons at the university
13:45:18 <Koen_> it felt like the teacher was trying to convince us that the most basic common sense was actually an obscure science
13:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> logic here is great because it's technically a philosophy course
13:45:42 <Phantom_Hoover> so it's basically aimed at people who have never had to do a proof in their lives
13:47:10 <Koen_> and it makes you feel superior I understand the feeling bro
13:47:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: was it about monoids
13:48:25 <elliott> Koen_: "common sense" doesn't exist and judgements that are simple in the surface can be very complex from a theory pov
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13:50:48 <elliott> @tell ais523 a new featured language would be great twh
13:55:51 <nooodl> i dislike german exams, they're so schwierig
13:57:35 <fizzie> elliott: Well ef-wee-ai-wee I do connect to explicit servers, if you know what I mean.
13:58:30 <elliott> I like how you're on a US server
13:58:51 <fizzie> I think I listed two explicit and the now borken chat.eu in my bouncer config.
13:59:06 <fizzie> rajaniemi, lindbohm and chat.eu.
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14:05:22 <elliott> i wonder how often holmes goes down......
14:05:47 <elliott> do i dare rest the fate of lambdabot on one server!!
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16:38:07 <zzo38> u.type=SDL_USEREVENT;
16:38:07 <zzo38> e.type=SDL_USEREVENT;
16:38:08 <zzo38> SDL_PushEvent(&e);
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16:38:23 <coppro> zzo38 appears to have segfaulted?
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17:09:24 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of game? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSbackgammonches
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17:51:52 <zzo38> Is this a real question?
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18:44:03 <kmc> fucking arizona
18:44:07 <kmc> too good for daylight savings time
18:45:16 <zzo38> I don't like daylight saving time.
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19:11:37 <kmc> what a shock
19:16:24 <shachaf> I like daylight saving time.
19:16:31 <shachaf> I don't like standard time, though.
19:16:49 <kmc> you and zzo38 are doomed to be forever an hour apart
19:16:53 <olsner> I like all the time in the world
19:17:25 <shachaf> kmc's +v makes me feel uneasy.
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19:18:22 <kmc> oh i guess i could -v myself
19:18:26 <kmc> but... i won't
19:19:14 <shachaf> (Are you sure one can -v oneself?)
19:19:42 <FreeFull> You can't without at least halfop priviledges
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19:20:14 <kmc> i will relinquish my -v as soon as the civil emergency is over, I promise
19:20:22 <FreeFull> Well, maybe you could -v using chanserv
19:20:27 <olsner> what's the civil emergency?
19:21:48 <FreeFull> But I'm unhappy that the Haskell package doesn't allow you to write your own function for sound using SDL
19:22:19 <FreeFull> On the C side, you can provide a user-written callback which fills a buffer
19:22:22 <zzo38> FreeFull: Will it work if you write the function for sound in C?
19:22:33 <FreeFull> The Haskell library seems to just have skipped over it
19:22:34 <zzo38> And you can write the other part of the program in Haskell?
19:22:38 <FreeFull> Although I see why it'd be hard
19:24:11 <kmc> it's not that hard to turn Haskell functions into C function pointers
19:24:28 <kmc> you could just write your own foreign import for that function
19:24:33 <fizzie> (One can always also go away and come back.)
19:24:35 <shachaf> Or even Haskell IO actions!
19:25:50 <zzo38> Yes, you could do that, but due to the way the sound works in SDL it seems it might not necessarily work.
19:29:46 <kmc> it might not be real time enough
19:35:18 <Koen__> zzo38: so when you capture a backgammon pawn on the chess board, it gets transferred to the backgammon board's jail
19:35:31 <Koen__> but how do you transfer a pawn from the backgammon board to the chess board?
19:38:19 <zzo38> Koen__: Chess pieces in backgammon board move like stones of backgammon while there. I fixed this rule now.
19:39:01 <Koen__> yeah but my question is: how do you transfer a piece to the backgammon board?
19:39:16 <Koen__> how do you transfer a piece to the chess board?
19:39:31 <zzo38> They are bear off.
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19:40:18 <zzo38> O no wait, I was wrong.
19:40:28 <zzo38> Chess pieces captured in chess board are removed from the game.
19:40:31 <Taneb> I'm feeling somewhat better than I was before
19:41:01 <zzo38> Only stones, not chess pieces, are placed in jail when captured from chess board.
19:41:07 <zzo38> Is this understandable now?
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19:51:32 <FreeFull> I wonder when lambdabot will have lenses again
19:52:40 <Taneb> :t \f (a, b) -> fmap ((,) b) (f a)
19:52:41 <lambdabot> Functor f => (t -> f a) -> (t, a1) -> f (a1, a)
19:53:22 <Taneb> :t \f (a, b) -> fmap ((,) a) (f b)
19:53:23 <lambdabot> Functor f => (t -> f a) -> (a1, t) -> f (a1, a)
19:54:16 <Taneb> I AM MANUALLY ADDING LENS TO LAMBDABOT SO HELP ME GOD
19:54:20 <Taneb> @let _2 f (a, b) = (,) a <$> f b; _2 :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (c, a) -> f (c, b)
19:54:50 <zzo38> Can you view my sequent calculus of Turing machines now? Please tell me if there is a mistake!
19:54:59 <shachaf> @let type Lens s t a b = forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
19:55:00 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled
19:55:23 <Bike> do you even need a forall there
19:55:33 <shachaf> @let type Lens s t a b = Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
19:55:37 <FreeFull> You know, one could probably fork, and open a pull request with the Trustworthy stuff
19:55:45 <Taneb> :t \l f -> runIdentity . l (Identity . f)
19:55:48 <lambdabot> ((a1 -> Identity b) -> a -> Identity c) -> (a1 -> b) -> a -> c
19:56:27 <Taneb> @ let over l f = runIdentity . l (Identity . f); over :: ((a -> Identity b) -> s -> Identity t) -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
19:56:33 <Taneb> @let over l f = runIdentity . l (Identity . f); over :: ((a -> Identity b) -> s -> Identity t) -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
19:56:34 <Bike> shachaf: btw three men is p. good
19:56:43 <Taneb> > over _2 (+ 1) (1, 2)
19:56:44 <shachaf> Bike: what about the boat and the dog
19:56:49 <Taneb> > over _2 (+ 1) (1, 2)
19:56:50 <Bike> the dog's good
19:56:54 <Bike> not sure re: the boat yet
19:57:03 <shachaf> di you only read chapter 0
19:57:03 <FreeFull> " type Lens s t a b = forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t"
19:57:13 <Bike> i'm on chapter: iii
19:57:18 <shachaf> Did I really write Applicative?
19:57:28 <FreeFull> Applicative would be a traversal I think
19:57:35 <shachaf> @let type Lens s t a b = Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
19:57:47 <shachaf> @let _2 f (a, b) = (,) a <$> f b; _2 :: Lens (e,a) (e,b) a b
19:58:01 <shachaf> @let over l f = runIdentity . l (Identity . f); over :: ((a -> Identity b) -> s -> Identity t) -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
19:58:03 <FreeFull> Did that just undefine everything?
19:58:16 <Bike> no, he's just redefining _2 w/ his fancy-ass type
19:58:28 <shachaf> Yes, it did just undefined everything.
19:58:39 <shachaf> @let view l = getConst . l Const
19:58:41 <lambdabot> ((a1 -> Const a1 b1) -> a -> Const c b) -> a -> c
19:58:57 <shachaf> > view _2 (over _2 (*5) ("hi",20))
19:59:25 <Bike> > over _2 (*5) ("test",19)
19:59:51 <shachaf> For the reason lambdabot said.
19:59:52 <Bike> because _1 doesn't exist
20:01:24 <shachaf> /msg lambdabot > view _2 (3,4)
20:02:32 <FreeFull> @let _1 f (a, b) = (,) b <$> f a; _1 :: Lens (e,a) (e,b) b a
20:04:27 <FreeFull> _2 seems a bit easier to define than _1, because of how fmap works with tuples
20:12:21 <Taneb> ...isn't any occupied type a terminal object in Hask?
20:12:51 <shachaf> Any type with one inhabitant is.
20:13:13 <Taneb> Ah, there's a word "single" that I was missing
20:13:20 <Taneb> And I meant inhabited
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20:37:18 <zzo38> I think the Turing machine sequent calculus could be consistently combined with classical logic; last time I think I made a mistake when I said it can't.
20:47:17 <Taneb> I should probably play Kerbal Space Program
20:50:47 <Taneb> Except a) I cannot find my bank card and b) I have exams happening
21:04:36 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, you can improve that CM sketch thing if you only need to allow adding, rather than deleting.
21:05:52 <zzo38> O no, even though Turing machine and classical logic together might be consistent, it isn't very useful for this purpose because any of the pieces of the tape might spontaneously lose data and be reset to the default symbol.
21:06:40 <zzo38> Maybe it is useful if you want to make that kind of Turing machine, perhaps......
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21:07:18 <Taneb> itsy, did anyone give you an answer to your riddle?
21:07:21 <kmc> what is CM sketch thing
21:07:48 <kmc> what do you do if you don't allow deleting
21:09:03 <shachaf> You can compute the minimum before incrementing, and then you don't need to increment the counters that are already bigger than the new minimum.
21:13:35 <itsy> Taneb: not yet
21:14:01 <Taneb> Because I think I have an answer
21:16:40 <kmc> shachaf: that is good for concurrent access I guess.
21:16:51 <shachaf> Oh, the one with the bitwise &?
21:17:48 <zzo38> The one of what with the bitwise &?
21:18:08 <shachaf> I guess it wasn't a bitwise &.
21:18:22 <shachaf> itsy: Please fix your IRC client to send UTF-8 instead of ISO-8859-1 or whatever it is it does.
21:18:34 <Bike> a and b were >= 2, right?
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21:20:58 <kmc> reducing the number of increments
21:21:51 <Bike> I guess a and b coul be and 4, then
21:25:26 <Bike> http://plv.csail.mit.edu/bedrock/ this seems this-channel-y.
21:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://wrongquestions.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/dark-knight.html you know i really am glad i found this thing
21:26:46 <kmc> Bike: cool
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21:38:20 <zzo38> Bike: It may be the good idea. I like this ideas. Does it mean this "cross-platform machine language" can be compile into others? Can it work with self-modifying code? etc?
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21:40:55 <zzo38> I thought of some kinds of extended sequent calculus, such as one where rules have priorities assigned and you are not allowed to use any rule unless there isn't any available rule of a higher priority, and rules with side effects, and possibly other things.
21:42:18 <zzo38> What kind of strange logic can be made up with such things?
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21:51:48 <oerjan> why did they leave with such a nick they should fit right in
21:52:15 <shachaf> oerjan: i had a dream that there were a bunch of `olist updates
21:52:43 <oerjan> shachaf: you were probably just trapped by that illusion spell in the recent one
21:53:46 <shachaf> should i have realized ))oh wait there are never a whole lot `olist updates at once(( and thereby become unillusioned
21:54:14 <oerjan> shachaf: well there was several in a row earlier this year
21:55:55 <Bike> no, what am i thinking.
21:56:08 <Bike> no wait two and six should work.
21:58:12 <shachaf> oerjan: yes well he got paid a million dollars to do those nine in a row
21:59:51 <oerjan> could have got awkward if he had had to stop after eight on the first try
22:02:28 <oerjan> wait is lambdabot notifying of messages in private now
22:02:40 <shachaf> and in the meanwhile armikrog isn't even at its goal :'(
22:02:50 <Bike> itsy: is it two and six this is bothering me now agh
22:03:21 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
22:03:48 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
22:03:56 <itsy> Bike: so Pat knows the product 12 and Sam knows the sum 8.
22:04:27 -!- oerjan_ has joined.
22:04:37 <Bike> sam thinks it's 2,6 or 3,5 but if it's 3,5, Pat would know them from their product
22:04:46 -!- oerjan_ has quit (Client Quit).
22:06:34 <Bike> 12 could be 2,6 or 3,4 so Pat doesn't know.
22:06:36 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages
22:08:19 <Bike> I thought they were restricted to be between 2 and 99.
22:08:58 <itsy> If Sam knows the sum is 8, a and b could be 3 and 5. If they're 3 and 5, then Pat has the product 15 and can calculate a and b. Sam knows that Pat doesn't know the answer, but if the sum is 8, Pat might know...
22:09:28 <Bike> so did i get it right or what. i need riddle cred.
22:09:44 <Bike> alt. answers include: 7 and 37 and Sam and Pat are just not good at math
22:11:27 <itsy> Bike: all possible a and b pairs that add up to the sum must contain at least one composite number. Otherwise Sam can't possibly know that Pat doesn't know the answer.
22:11:49 <nooodl> "<Bike> 12 could be 2,6 or 3,4 so Pat doesn't know." <--- i read these as decimal numbers and was very confused hh
22:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> your own fault for living in a country with dumb decimal formattign
22:12:32 <Bike> I thought Sam knew Pat didn't know the answer because he said so
22:12:39 <kmc> hope that helps when proceeded by its quotation
22:12:54 <kmc> whatever the fuck
22:13:32 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: do you know how we write tuples
22:14:33 <shachaf> £ doesn't actually exist outside .uk
22:14:38 <nooodl> if there aren't any decimals in any of the numbers it's just (1, 2)
22:14:45 <kmc> @let (£) = (,)
22:14:45 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Parse error in pattern: � �
22:14:50 <kmc> ffffffffffffff
22:14:53 <nooodl> if there are, you gotta write (1,2; 3,4)
22:15:09 <kmc> we can land a man on the moon but we can't make a haskell eval bot that handles non-ASCII characters
22:15:25 <nooodl> also some people (even books) use . instead of \cdot to mean multiplication hth
22:15:32 <shachaf> kmc: i bet it'll handle iso-8859-1
22:15:38 <kmc> nooodl: typewritten ones?
22:15:39 <Bike> well, people do that in americaland too.
22:15:46 <itsy> What value are a and b?
22:15:46 <itsy> 2 <= a <= b <= 99
22:15:46 <itsy> Sam knows the sum a + b.
22:15:46 <itsy> Pat knows the product a * b.
22:15:46 <itsy> Sam says: "I don't know a and b. I also know that you don't know."
22:15:47 <itsy> Pat says: "I do now!"
22:15:47 <itsy> Sam says: "So do I."
22:15:47 <Bike> I mean, they suck, but they do it.
22:15:51 <kmc> publishing maths before LaTeX was grim
22:16:09 <Bike> Too complicated for me
22:16:17 <nooodl> nope, actual modern typeset books
22:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i heard a story about some pre-latex textbook where the guy wrote "bla bla bla \epsilon" and then had a footnote at the bottom saying "\epsilon should be as small as possible"
22:18:32 <Phantom_Hoover> which the printers interpreted as an instruction to print the epsilon really tiny
22:18:35 <oerjan> kmc: hey ghc is more complicated than all the moon landing software combined, of course it's harder hth
22:19:17 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: that's cute
22:20:03 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: one of the traditional student songs here has a "but bigger!" in the middle because of an instruction the printers missed
22:20:11 <olsner> (that's the story anyway)
22:20:35 <zzo38> kmc: Publishing maths works fine without LaTeX if you have Plain TeX + AMS fonts, or even AMS-TeX. (I suppose LaTeX might not be good enough either for some things, unless you are using AMS-LaTeX.)
22:22:22 <zzo38> (Actually, even Plain TeX alone has many math fonts, although sometimes you might want to add AMS fonts)
22:22:49 <oerjan> olsner: clearly we are approaching someone making a limerick made solely out of proofreading notes
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22:27:27 <oerjan> <mnoqy> first define determinants on matrices over a field F axiomatically as: alternating multilinear function (F^n)^n -> F s.t. det(I) = 1 <-- did you remember to prove that exists twh
22:27:57 <oerjan> also you only need F to be a commutative ring iirc
22:29:42 <mnoqy> "i forgot that part"
22:33:04 <shachaf> What do I do with an old expired passport?
22:33:26 <zzo38> Sell it to someone as a fake passport.
22:34:10 <shachaf> But the corners are cut to mark it as expired.
22:39:39 <kmc> Honest Shachaf's Fake Passport: We cut corners and pass the savings on to YOU!
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22:41:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> I AM MANUALLY ADDING LENS TO LAMBDABOT SO HELP ME GOD <-- finally snapped?
22:41:40 <shachaf> hey oerjan did you ever learn lens
22:43:59 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/EmmUnl.hs
22:51:03 <shachaf> newPosMap ^. mapping swapped?
22:56:54 <nooodl> oerjan: nice weed function
22:58:30 <oerjan> ...too tired to read my own code :/
23:03:32 <itsy> Sam knows that Pat doesn't know: therefore the number Sam knows is not the sum of two primes. (A, B, or both are composite)
23:03:32 <itsy> Pat figures out the numbers now he knows Sam knows he doesn't know: therefore there's only one way to factor the product Pat knows into two numbers whose sum is not also the sum of two primes.
23:03:32 <itsy> Sam figures out the numbers now he knows Pat knows them: therefore there's only one pair of number which add up to the number Sam knows whose product can be factored into two numbers whose sum is not also the sum of two primes.
23:03:38 <itsy> Or something...
23:04:08 <Bike> just write it out in lens
23:04:09 <oerjan> oh right that's what the weed functions did
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23:06:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
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23:07:03 <hagb4rd> http://abload.de/img/dit83b2d.jpg
23:07:52 <Bike> i was expecting illegal porn. v. disappointed
23:08:14 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to partyb4rd.
23:08:17 <oerjan> well it _does_ say "fuck you" in german
23:09:12 <partyb4rd> it's "how's your diet".."fuck you"
23:09:14 <kmc> we are amused
23:09:27 <kmc> the royal +v
23:09:30 <shachaf> oerjan: can i petition for kmc to be devoiced
23:09:42 <oerjan> shachaf: sure, just ask elliott
23:09:44 <shachaf> oerjan: his nick is designed to be three letters long
23:09:44 <Bike> it's my understanding that elliott is voice dictator for life
23:09:50 <shachaf> my alignment is getting messed up
23:10:00 <kmc> petition the ad-hoc subcommittee on voicings
23:10:55 <shachaf> hey remember partitionmagic
23:11:07 <shachaf> remember the floppy it could make
23:11:16 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:11:24 <shachaf> you could boot to the floppy and it had a gui and everything
23:11:44 <kmc> i think I had a trial version of PartitionMagic that came with Red Hat Linux 6.0 in the back of a book about Red Hat Linux 6.0
23:12:06 <kmc> shachaf: yeah like a fake Windows 95 GUI
23:12:08 <kmc> it was the best
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23:14:24 <HackEgo> DANIELA: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
23:14:24 <HackEgo> DANIELA: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
23:16:13 <oerjan> i wonder how many people have left our channel in disgust because the welcome wiki links don't work
23:16:38 <HackEgo> works: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:16:57 <shachaf> Hmm, except for the period. It links to [[Main page.]]
23:17:03 <shachaf> That sounds like a great esolang name to me.
23:20:53 <oerjan> it's a bit remarkable that no one has named something notable "main page" yet
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23:39:17 <kmc> today is alonzo church's \f x -> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f x)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
23:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> have i mentioned that alonzo church's son dated haskell curry's daughter
23:43:20 <Bike> > (\f x -> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f(f (f x))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) (*2) 1
23:43:21 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatche...
23:43:44 <kmc> ('th birthday)
23:46:06 <kmc> f (u (c (k (i t))))
23:46:26 <kmc> how long can IRC channel topics be? asking for a friend
23:47:18 <kmc> i started writing a more concise lambda term for 110 but ran out of give a fuck
23:47:36 <Bike> 390, according to the server, which might be lying
23:47:39 <kmc> are there cool algorithms for finding the most concise lambda term for a given church numeral
23:47:50 <oerjan> 01:06 CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 CHARSET=ascii NICKLEN=16 CHANNELLEN=50 TOPICLEN=390 ETRACE CPRIVMSG CNOTICE DEAF=D MONITOR=100 FNC
23:47:57 <Bike> isn't it basically the kolmogorov complexity
23:48:33 <Bike> so the cool algorithm is fuck you got mine
23:48:40 <Bike> i guess you could do something easyish like factoring
23:48:42 <kmc> ok so lets say by 'most concise' i meant 'pretty concise' and only for small numbers
23:48:50 <kmc> i was going to use binary
23:49:03 <Bike> log is pretty concise
23:49:37 <kmc> i got it working fine with 'let' in Haskell but transforming that to lambdas fails because lambda args are monomorphic
23:49:42 <kmc> fucking types, am i right
23:53:28 <oerjan> > (\d s z -> d (s (d (s (d (s (d (d (d (s (d (s z))))))))))))(\n f x -> n f (n f x))(\n f x -> f (n f x))(\f x -> x)(+1)0
23:53:55 <oerjan> > (\d s z -> d (s (d (s (d (s (d (d (s (d (s z))))))))))))(\n f x -> n f (n f x))(\n f x -> f (n f x))(\f x -> x)(+1)0
23:53:56 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:56: parse error on input `)'
23:54:04 <oerjan> > (\d s z -> d (s (d (s (d (s (d (d (s (d (s z)))))))))))(\n f x -> n f (n f x))(\n f x -> f (n f x))(\f x -> x)(+1)0
23:55:33 <oerjan> > (\d s o -> d (s (d (s (d (s (d (d (s (d o))))))))))(\n f x -> n f (n f x))(\n f x -> f (n f x))(\f -> f)(+1)0
23:55:51 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: help i can't tell how joking you are
23:56:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i might just be wrong, i am basing this off some random internet rumours
23:56:57 <nooodl> i can't find any citations at least...
23:57:09 <Bike> it's hard to find stuff on the personal lives of these people
23:57:14 <Phantom_Hoover> and don't quote me on the claim that they had a lovechild who went on to become <major computer legend>
23:57:27 <Bike> that sounds kind of dumbassed
23:57:28 <Phantom_Hoover> http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/haskell-curry-yes-i-dated-his-daughter/
23:57:40 <Bike> if you want that you can just stick with the curies, not the curries
23:58:11 <kmc> a lovechild who went on to become steve yegge
23:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> a lovechild who went on to become benedict cumberbatch
23:59:00 <Bike> is that guy real
23:59:07 <Bike> are chickens real
00:00:01 <Bike> is nooodl real
00:00:15 <Bike> `thanks chickens
00:00:17 <HackEgo> Thanks, chickens. Thickens.
00:00:39 <nooodl> [1]: http://zapatopi.net/belgium/
00:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Benedict_Cumberbatch_2011_(jpg).jpg/220px-Benedict_Cumberbatch_2011_(jpg).jpg
00:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> how can people be so enamoured with a man who looks this posh
00:05:47 <kmc> http://redscharlach.tumblr.com/post/19565284869/otters-who-look-like-benedict-cumberbatch-a
00:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> the sherlock hair people really did a great job of making him look normal
00:09:16 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:14:51 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
00:16:08 <Sgeo> Active Worlds is now free
00:20:25 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:23:26 <kmc> active worlds free, real world still pretty oppressed
00:33:48 <shachaf> kmc: does +kmc indicate that your evil twin -kmc is on the loose
00:34:01 <Fiora> it means that he's really positive about what he's saying
00:34:24 <Bike> +kmc and *kmc form a field
00:34:34 <shachaf> maybe he is the evil twin...........
00:34:43 <Fiora> if we collide +kmc and -cmk do we get annihilation?
00:34:55 <Bike> kmc: what;s your spin
00:35:07 <kmc> maybe it means i'm at PLUS ONE on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale
00:35:24 <Bike> because it's awesome
00:35:29 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: but, like, parity, right?
00:35:49 <Bike> kmc: PLUS FOUR is p. great
00:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, if you're going for a quantum mechanics thing then probably
00:36:23 <kmc> yeah good description
00:36:23 <Fiora> sorry I was making a bad antimatter joke ._.
00:37:11 <shachaf> Fiora: Did you hear of my new word, "antícheirocracy"?
00:37:52 <shachaf> can you figure out what it means
00:38:33 <Fiora> cheirocracy would be um... rule by asymmetry?
00:38:41 <Fiora> anti-rule-by-asymmetry?
00:39:12 <shachaf> antícheir or some variation means "thumb" hth
00:39:31 <Phantom_Hoover> 'cheirocracy' basically means 'rule by force' apparently
00:39:45 <Bike> rule by giant talking thumbs
00:39:57 <Bike> `pastelogs antícheirocracy
00:40:38 <Bike> `run ls bin/*past*
00:40:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.509
00:40:42 <HackEgo> bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom \ bin/pastlog
00:40:43 <shachaf> npt to be confused with "chairocracy", which is how Microsoft works.
00:41:33 <Bike> "rule of thumb"
00:41:36 <Bike> shachaf: sit in the corner
00:41:47 <shachaf> (remember those jokes) (nostalgia)
00:42:02 * kmc exploits content type sniffing on pastes to steal all your codu.org cookies
00:42:22 <Fiora> that's amazingly amazingly horribly amazingh
00:42:45 * Fiora tries to hide her giggles while still at work
00:43:42 <Bike> shachaf: sit in every corner
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00:43:56 <kmc> idgi re msft
00:44:33 <Bike> @wn chairocracy
00:44:35 <Bike> chairs i guess
00:45:10 <Bike> republican national convention joke
00:45:37 <shachaf> kmc: "oldskool steve ballmer joke" hth
00:45:39 <Fiora> or maybe a ballmer joke?
00:47:31 <Bike> i'm a conservative, the only ballmer jokes i tolerate are developers
00:47:44 <shachaf> Bike: how can you sit in every corner........in a perfectly round room
00:49:09 <Bike> with the power of calculus, there are infinite corners!!
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01:18:45 <Sgeo> Eep. Saw an ad for Monster and confused it for Monster Cable for a second
01:20:57 <Sgeo> I can't hear the mosquito tone :(
01:22:38 <kmc> does that mean you are a mosquito
01:24:19 <kmc> that would be sad because mosquitoes do not live very long
01:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> trying to think of a way to link this to the picture of him in a blood costume
01:28:08 <Bike> The one you can only hear until you're 20-something
01:28:14 <Bike> popular as a ringtone among teenaged fuckheads
01:28:35 <kmc> those bastards, making it so i can't be annoyed by their phones
01:28:49 <shachaf> i want a ringtone based on the shepard tone
01:29:06 <kmc> you should make one
01:29:08 <kmc> using sox maybe
01:29:17 <kmc> or just like 'write a c program'
01:29:37 <Fiora> it says that 18-24 can only hear up to ~16khz but I can hear the hihgest 18khz one fine
01:29:43 <Fiora> I guess this means I'm actually 17
01:29:47 <kmc> my fortune cookie fortune: "☺ Handsome is that handsome dose. ☺"
01:29:59 <shachaf> Fiora: maybe your headphones are broken
01:30:19 <Bike> kmc: it's annoying because then they set it off in class and the other students have to convince the teacher that somebody's being a dick
01:30:43 <kmc> let them work it out amongst themselves
01:30:45 <kmc> stanford prison style
01:31:05 <Bike> a good precedent
01:34:20 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_paradox hm i didn't know the absolute pitch bit
01:41:12 <zzo38> The computer program's strategy seems to always attack 74-gun ships. My strategy is to attack whichever ship the opponent has less of, and to otherwise attack many ships instead of always the same one (using 74-gun ships when attacking many and 64-gun ships when focusing my attacks on heavily damaged ships), making refit and extra damage cards worse for them.
01:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> it says that 18-24 can only hear up to ~16khz but I can hear the hihgest 18khz one fine
01:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> back when i was a teenage fuckhead i knew a 50-odd-year-old who could hear it
01:44:27 <Bike> the chosen one...
01:47:11 <Sgeo> "Episode 1 will be released to the public in:
01:47:19 <Sgeo> The seconds I guess I didn't manage to copy
01:47:26 <Sgeo> (Episode 1 of RvB season 11)
01:48:19 <Fiora> no no no don't justify it I will use this as proof I'm not old yet <.<
01:48:48 <kmc> zzo38: do you win with this strategy?
01:48:59 <shachaf> Fiora: you're older than i am, therefore you're old
01:49:27 <zzo38> kmc: Not always, but it seems to help a bit.
01:50:18 <zzo38> (Note that you can only make one attack per turn, and only attack one ship per turn, too. Also, some cards cause your own ships to catch fire and hit icebergs and sink and whatever.)
01:51:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The quoted figures are probabilistic.
01:51:39 <pikhq> The typical 50 year old can't hear 18kHz.
01:51:45 <pikhq> But individual 50 year olds sure can.
01:52:01 * pikhq is proud to be a provider of obvious facts
01:52:57 <Sgeo> My dad thinks I might have hearing loss. I think I might have earwax
01:53:04 <kmc> Take Our Internet "Real Age" Quiz (using psychoacoustic observations)
01:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how all of the demonstrations have a comment pointing out that there's an obvious discontinuity
01:54:16 <kmc> `addquote <+kmc> we are amused <+kmc> the royal +v
01:54:19 <HackEgo> 1052) <+kmc> we are amused <+kmc> the royal +v
01:54:37 <zzo38> However, if they have an equal number 74-guns and 64-guns, attacking the 74-guns ships is usually better since those ships can cause more damage with an attack. However, you need the correct 74-gun broadside or 64-gun broadside card for a kind of ship to attack, so if you think they have all 64-guns cards and the deck has mostly 64-guns cards then try attacking 64-guns ships.
01:54:42 <Bike> kmc: i assume the age test works by playing "Satisfaction" and "Runaway" back to back and asking which is "real music"
01:54:56 <kmc> it is my royal prerogative
01:55:05 <Fiora> Bike: what if we don't know what either of them are
01:55:15 <Bike> Fiora: you nerd
01:55:28 <Bike> (you've probably heard both of them at some point though)
01:55:38 <pikhq> I don't know Runaway.
01:55:40 <shachaf> Bike: have you considered that that's pretty rude to say all the time
01:55:44 <pikhq> Definitely know Satisfaction though.
01:55:53 <Bike> pikhq: "Let's have a toast to the douchebags"
01:56:01 <Fiora> wikipedia finds like 15 songs called runaway
01:56:06 <kmc> i like a fair amount of music that was recoded decades before my birth
01:56:07 <Fiora> I guess satisfaction is the rolling stones one?
01:56:15 <pikhq> That'd be the one, Fiora.
01:56:24 <Fiora> runaway is... a ... del shannon song?
01:57:21 <shachaf> As they say, "a good composer is a dead composer"
01:57:32 <kmc> a decomposer
01:58:14 <Bike> i was just making a joke about old people not liking rap
01:58:17 <Bike> can't say that went well tbh
01:58:43 <zzo38> What if you think both or neither of them is "real music"?
01:58:58 <Bike> You're a lich, I guess
01:59:41 <Bike> or maybe whatever Fiora is
02:00:09 <Phantom_Hoover> pretty sure old people wouldn't be fond of satisfaction either
02:01:47 * kmc listens to Runaway
02:02:10 <tswett> zzo38: what's this game that has 74-gun ships and whatnot?
02:02:43 <zzo38> tswett: Ship Of The Line, on the X-BIT BBS.
02:03:17 <tswett> Fiora: you're probably a human.
02:04:29 <Fiora> I don't think so...
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02:05:16 <kmc> yeah these are both 'real music'
02:05:31 <kmc> KMC HAS SPOKEN
02:05:35 <Fiora> um, I mean, I don't think I'm a lich.
02:05:46 <Bike> well, guess kmc is a fiora
02:05:48 <shachaf> Fiora: Have you double-checked?
02:06:08 * Fiora looks down, glances under her sleeves and at her hands
02:06:11 <Bike> liches stay the same age forever
02:06:13 <Bike> think about it!
02:06:23 * Fiora sees soft and warm "skin" that looks pretty alive
02:06:40 <shachaf> "alive" is just another word for "aging"
02:06:49 <Fiora> are you calling me old
02:06:54 <kmc> this is getting p. creepy
02:06:58 <shachaf> imo give it serious consideration hth
02:07:04 <shachaf> Fiora: you're older than you were this morning
02:07:27 <shachaf> there's a song about that..............
02:07:52 <kmc> shachaf: am i right to conclude that this person in ##crypto is doing something shady AND will probably fuck up the crypto if left to their own devices
02:07:57 <kmc> so i should stop helpying them
02:08:37 <zzo38> Am I calling you old?
02:08:54 <Fiora> I am pretty sure I'm not a lich though staying the same age forever would be pretty nice
02:09:15 <shachaf> kmc: I'm not sure whether what they're doing is shady, but I doubt they'll get their cryptography thing right no matter what.
02:09:26 <shachaf> Mostly because they seem to be trying to do something impossible?
02:09:31 <Bike> what is their cryptography thing
02:09:34 <Bike> i like impossible somethings
02:09:45 <shachaf> Fiora: have you considered lichification
02:09:53 <Fiora> I don't really know how to do that :/
02:10:00 <Fiora> I also kind of like being alive at least somewhat
02:10:00 <zzo38> Staying the same age forever would be pretty stupid.
02:10:32 <shachaf> Have you ever tried any of the alternatives?
02:10:42 <Fiora> I don't think any of them let you go back
02:10:48 <tswett> Imo if you did that, you would only exist for a single instant hth.
02:11:01 <shachaf> resurrection? reïncarnation? etc
02:11:11 <Fiora> a-anyways um I don't think this is really a comfortable subject but
02:12:52 <shachaf> hey why aren't you in ##fiora "the good channel for fiora discussions"
02:13:04 <Fiora> because nobody ever really talked there or anything...
02:13:42 <oerjan> obviously they only talk when you aren't there hth
02:13:58 <Bike> shachaf: oh, by the way, did you hear about summa technologica coming out in english.
02:14:11 <Bike> god i hate latin
02:14:14 <oerjan> gimme summa that technologica
02:17:48 <Bike> shachaf: http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/the-art-of-conjecturing/
02:27:31 <Bike> I have "Runaway" stuck in my head now.
02:30:00 <shachaf> kmc: did you read _The Door Into Summer_
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02:34:37 <zzo38> I thought of something, if you have a logic which you add another symbol and a rule to introduce it: ${}\vdash x\over{}\vdash\natural x$ where x is any single formula. Is there such things?
02:35:06 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: imo which books
02:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> start with player of games, read use of weapons after that
02:35:38 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: imo i'll give you my address and you can mail me a book and i'll read it hth
02:39:04 <zzo38> How much will the postage cost?
02:39:12 <zzo38> Also, how much will the book cost?
02:40:23 <shachaf> I could send Phantom_Hoover a book in exchange if he wants.
02:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i know better than to trust you with my address shachaf
02:43:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:46:06 <kmc> shachaf: i didn't
02:46:31 <Bike> @ask phantom_hoover why not just lie about your return address
02:46:50 <Bike> it's like he's never even mailed antrhax bombs before, honestly
02:50:17 <oerjan> he prefers bricks afaiu
03:02:12 <tswett> A terminal object is an initial object in the opposite category hth. I'm in #tswett and I have been nearly continuously for two months.
03:02:55 <shachaf> kmc knows all about terminal objects
03:13:38 <kmc> or should i say v.v
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03:26:11 <kmc> shachaf: hey your city has the fancy gunshot location system doesn't it
03:26:29 <shachaf> i heard a gunshot outside the other day
03:26:44 <shachaf> i don't know about a system, though
03:26:47 <kmc> yeah i think http://www.shotspotter.com/ was developed in Menlo Park and deployed in EPA
03:26:52 <kmc> one of the first deployments I mean
03:26:57 <kmc> shachaf: do you know where it came from
03:27:34 <zzo38> What happens if you have both pull-up resistor and pull-down resistor on the same thing?
03:29:14 <kmc> you waste energy
03:29:58 <shachaf> wow that's pretty rude kmc
03:30:01 <zzo38> Yes, I would certainly think so, but what would be the logical result?
03:30:40 <kmc> if you have +5V -/\/Ra\/\- input pin -/\/Rb\/\- GND then the voltage at the input pin is 5 * (Ra / Rb)
03:31:11 <Bike> wow, i've found something that looks worse linearly than math.
03:31:14 <kmc> each logic family (e.g. TTL, CMOS) specifies a range of valid input voltages for a 0 and another range for 1
03:31:32 <kmc> if the input pin voltage falls outside both of those ranges then it's Undefined Behavior
03:31:44 <zzo38> O, so it depends on the logic family of electronics.
03:31:56 <kmc> yes, and the size of the resistors involved
03:32:04 <kmc> where by 'size' i mean 'resistance'
03:33:56 <Bike> well the actual analog behavior is well defined innit
03:34:23 <zzo38> The analog behavior is the calculation like 5 * (Ra / Rb) and so on I guess
03:34:49 <Bike> who needs logic when you have electrodynamics
03:34:55 <zzo38> If this is the calculation then it must be 5 if it is equal, I guess.
03:35:50 <zzo38> But, maybe there won't be enough current or enough power or impedance or whatever? Are those necessary too?
03:36:41 <Bike> isn't that just two resistors in series? that can't be very taxing.
03:45:39 <kmc> for resistors, impedance and resistance are the same thing
03:46:03 <kmc> as for current, you need very little current to shove a CMOS input around. other logic families may vary
03:46:16 <kmc> i'm too young and too shitty an EE to know anything about other logic families ;P
03:47:39 <Bike> man AC circuitry is way hard isn't it
03:47:50 <Bike> fckin complex arithmetic
03:47:59 <kmc> complex arithmetic ain't shit
03:48:08 <Bike> quaternions 4 lyfe
03:55:08 <kmc> fucjk i can't even tell you how a transistor works
03:58:09 <Bike> the guy who invented them got /two/ nobel prizes i think i'ts ok if you're not on that level dude
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03:58:35 <kmc> who shockley?
03:59:05 <kmc> oh that guy
03:59:09 <kmc> good for him
03:59:11 <zzo38> My electronics teacher in school once tried to explain how a transistor works, but didn't do a very good job of that or of most other things. Some of the students weren't very good at it either. The teacher once said the simplest atom is the water atom, and had a schematic for blinking lights, which was wrong in a few ways.
03:59:11 <Bike> "the balding guy"
03:59:21 <kmc> shockley was an asshole anyway
03:59:32 <Bike> lol eugenics advocate huh
04:00:05 <zzo38> There was an extra wire, and the transistors were labeled T1 and T2; I told him they should be Q1 and Q2 but he didn't believe me. I built it as it was, and mine didn't work even though the other students had it working. And then, I realized that the schematic was wrong so I had to cut one of the traces, and then it worked.
04:00:43 <Bike> i read a nice book debunking a lot of racist stuff the other day
04:00:51 <Bike> and eugenics i guess
04:01:00 <Bike> published 1911 "very influential"
04:01:29 <kmc> do they claim that eugenics doesn't work
04:01:31 <kmc> or just that it's bad
04:01:40 <Bike> that it doesn't work
04:01:43 <zzo38> The teacher gave us resistors from some container with various resistors. Some of us had resistors with five or six bands, and he told us to discard them because they were diodes and not resistors.
04:02:17 <Bike> the main comparison i remember that i thought was interesting was that when you compare it to livestock breeding, the major difference is that livestock are bred not only to have traits but also to have those traits breed true
04:02:28 <Bike> which is not true in human populations except for very weird situations
04:02:44 <zzo38> What kind of very weird situations?
04:02:48 <kmc> interesting
04:04:09 <Bike> zzo38: the example given was some german (maybe? i forget) population that was "bred" for being spearmen and they got taller over time, or something likee that
04:04:46 <Bike> there's also all the problems about heritability of intelligence, i guess, but IQ stuff wasn't very well developed in 1911 anyway
04:05:05 <Bike> i haven't read Mismeasure of Man but i'd probably recommend that on that topic
04:05:46 <Bike> it's certainly not as simple as "kids born to smart parents are guaranteed to be smart" or the same with s/smart/dumb/
04:05:49 <zzo38> I suppose if they want to do that they can, but they should only do it voluntarily. If you do not want to be bred then you shouldn't. Also, it is more complicated than just that; a lot of these traits aren't done like this anyways.
04:06:04 <Bike> not even remotely, no
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04:06:31 <Bike> another thing that was very interesting was detailed information on morphological racial differences, which i'd never seen before
04:06:37 <zzo38> Some people may have thought it does but really a lot of it isn't.
04:06:50 <Bike> people from Tuscany have this average and mean height, while people from Rome have this (different!) average and mean
04:07:05 <pikhq> Eh, IQ was only really intended as a diagnostic tool for certain sorts of mental deficits anyways.
04:07:08 <Bike> er, average and std. deviation.
04:07:41 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, yes, IQ works to do that, at least. Not everything else they call IQ.
04:07:51 <Bike> I also found out that native Australians are pretty distant phylogenically from other non-African populations, which I didn't know
04:08:06 <pikhq> i.e. it only even functions within its design to detect disability...
04:08:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Aye. People are idiots.
04:08:24 <Bike> but /how idiotic/ i need numbers pikhq!
04:08:35 <Fiora> Bike: I guess that would sort of imply they came over when there was a land bridge or something and evolved for a (relatively speaking) long period without mixing?
04:09:03 <Bike> a land bridge to australia? not /that/ long ago, good god
04:09:20 <Fiora> wasn't there one during the ice age?
04:09:22 <Bike> but yeah, relatively early migrants from africa
04:09:32 <Fiora> because of the lower sea levels
04:09:35 <zzo38> I define IQ as whatever your score would be on an ideal IQ test (which cannot actually exist), where 100 is average.
04:09:41 <Bike> oh, like zealandia
04:09:45 <zzo38> It isn't the same as intelligence even though there is somewhat related.
04:09:56 <Fiora> http://www.planetaryvisions.com/thumbs_new/2226_ban.jpg
04:10:08 <Bike> i thought you meant like when australia and antarctica were connected, lol
04:10:24 <Fiora> ohhhh no not that XD
04:10:26 <Fiora> australia and asia
04:10:32 <Bike> whoa shit, i didn't know indonesia was that shallow.
04:11:49 <Bike> related but not really: malagasy is an austronesian language that is the craziest shit
04:12:51 <Bike> «It is believed that first human migration to Australia was achieved when this landmass formed part of the Sahul continent, connected to the island of New Guinea via a land bridge. It is also possible that people came by boat across the Timor Sea. The exact timing of the arrival of the ancestors of the Indigenous Australians has been a matter of dispute among archaeologists. The most generally accepted date for first arrival is between 40 00
04:13:15 <Bike> so i guess you're right fiora. have you considered a career in paleoanthropology
04:20:13 <Fiora> um... I don't think so
04:20:47 <Bike> shame, i think you've got the knack
04:21:06 <Fiora> I was just guessing
04:25:14 <Bike> http://www.www.extra-www.org/
04:31:26 <pikhq> example.com resolves.
04:44:03 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/f5a1ce60a792a7ea198f55b208f2be57/tumblr_moes1iBMYN1r59os8o1_400.jpg the new animal ccrossing game has latex support, supposedly
04:45:51 <Bike> i look forward to seeing advances in HoTT made by cute animal things
04:47:50 <Bike> homotopy type theory
04:48:00 <Bike> a thing some people in here like that i have no idea about
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04:50:39 <kmc> main :: IQ ()
05:12:15 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
05:25:21 <kmc> crickets chirp
05:46:40 <kmc> main ist keine Funktion
05:47:11 <kmc> TikZ ist kein Zeichenprogramm
05:54:09 <shachaf> kmc: since bloom filters usually don't use cryptographic hash functions are there situations where you can attack them in interesting ways
05:54:14 <shachaf> what are they used for anyway
05:56:02 <kmc> the main application I know of is reducing the number of misses on an expensive cache
05:57:10 <kmc> whatever sort
05:57:12 <kmc> caches anywhere
05:57:22 <kmc> or any kind of lookup data structure, doesn't have to be a cache
05:57:44 <kmc> when i interviewed at Mozilla we talked about using Bloom filters to speed up the matching of elements to CSS rules
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07:44:13 <kmc> @nietzsche_ebooks
07:45:56 <kmc> oh my resistor equation before was wrong
07:46:26 <kmc> i said 5 * (Ra / Rb) meaning the voltage is 5 for equal resistors, but it should be 2.5
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07:47:32 <kmc> point is the 5V drop is split between the two resistors linearly according to their resistances
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07:53:25 <olsner> hmm, I dreamt about greeting people
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11:17:09 <shachaf> @tell ais523 GHC actually goes to a lot of trouble to uncurry functions for efficiency (passing multiple arguments at once in registers and so on). Functions in Haskell work the way they do for user convenience much more than compiler convenience.
11:35:37 <FreeFull> GHC does a lot work to optimise code
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14:42:17 <hagb4rd> what do you neeed that fot
14:45:32 <hagb4rd> yea.. i would sing for you all night
14:47:58 <Taneb> Is this... is this something you want to talk about?
14:49:08 <hagb4rd> no, i want to blame kmc and gregor for their lack of integrity
14:50:02 <Taneb> I don't think either kmc or Gregor make a habit of disintegrating boobs?
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14:52:57 <Taneb> A somewhat obtuse one, I apologize
14:53:19 <hagb4rd> no, not you're cool attriq
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14:53:46 <hagb4rd> i mean why do they expose admin state?
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14:54:05 <Taneb> Boobs expose admin state?
14:54:08 <elliott> looks like it's your destiny
14:54:40 <elliott> just like the good old days
14:54:46 <elliott> too bad shachaf isn't here eh
14:55:14 <Fiora> does this mean I get op? :o
14:55:46 <Fiora> um, yes, I guess I do?
14:56:52 <Fiora> what does that mean...?
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14:57:08 <elliott> it means he doesn't get voice any more
14:57:28 <hagb4rd> who cares about voice while having boobs
14:57:43 <elliott> are you drunk or something
14:57:43 <hagb4rd> i see you just don't understand :/
14:57:54 <elliott> i mean you always sound like you're drunk, but...
14:59:16 <hagb4rd> we have to work on your soft skills
14:59:37 <Taneb> Is quilting a soft skill
15:00:24 <mnoqy> quilting, knitting, embroidery
15:01:02 <Fiora> what exactly does voice do...?
15:01:15 <elliott> nothing unless the channel is +m
15:01:24 <elliott> oh maybe it cancels out +q too?
15:01:25 <Fiora> so him getting/notgetting voice doesn't... actually mean anything
15:01:44 <elliott> it's a figurehead position! like the queen
15:01:52 <Taneb> I kicked kmc because he was a bear
15:04:24 <HackEgo> 600) <ais523> Vorpal: I was paying too much attention to elliott and not enough to my HP \ 1005) <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
15:19:56 <hagb4rd> great creepy m83 rmx by Trentemøller http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfyT56_kmTE ..enjoy
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15:31:32 <hagb4rd> talking about soft skills.. do you know DISCO? http://disco-tools.eu/disco2_portal/terms.php
15:32:41 <Bike> i'm pretty good at disco dancing
15:33:30 <hagb4rd> it may help while creating profiles, CV.. especially on the global market
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16:13:17 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tt3ULj8Xg
16:13:39 * hagb4rd sets mode to *screensaver*
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16:35:36 <Sgeo> When did Magnatune turn evil?
16:36:06 <Bike> three thousand moons ago, on the Day of Darkness
16:36:54 <Sgeo> Used to be able to listen to the music ad-free online
16:37:02 <Sgeo> Used to be able to buy individual songs
16:37:31 <Sgeo> There's at least one album that relied on that
16:37:41 <Sgeo> (On not having ads in the middle of each track)
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17:22:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you want to see me fuck around with lambdabot
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17:30:06 <Taneb> What would be the best way to prove that 9 is more than 4
17:31:34 <elliott> 9 = S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S (S 0)))))))))
17:32:32 <elliott> forall n, n <= n; forall m n, m <= n -> m <= S n
17:33:33 <HackEgo> Thanks, elliott. Thelliott.
17:33:44 <elliott> eagerly awaiting your proof
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17:41:54 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, your equation for the voltage looked wrong to me too
17:44:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: er, yes I did?
17:44:28 <zzo38> TNT has no < and > so it is defined in terms of what it does have. TNT doesn't have <= either.
17:44:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps my use of = confuses you
17:44:41 <elliott> it was intended as a definitional
17:46:25 <zzo38> a < b : exists c. a + S c = b
17:48:57 <Taneb> elliott, does http://hpaste.org/89968 look right?
17:49:09 <Taneb> I am unsure how to format this kind of proof
17:50:19 <elliott> Taneb: you probably need explicit quantification for the cases of each proposition, given that you say "n <= m" but then give a case for "n <= S m"
17:50:40 <elliott> i also recommend using digits throughout since the nested Ses is ugly :P
17:50:57 <elliott> but sure, looks right to me
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18:02:02 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, finished season 1
18:32:23 -!- itsy has joined.
18:48:47 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, finished first ep of season 2
18:48:56 <Sgeo> Should go out to get a haircut soon
18:49:05 <Sgeo> Haven't had a haircut in about 9 months
18:49:33 <kmc> that's so crazy it might work
18:50:24 <kmc> the next time i get my hair cut well I need to take a picture and keep it on my phone so that at subsequent haircuts I can just be like "DO THIS"
18:50:52 <kmc> i'm not good at describing how i want my hair cut, but i'm not very picky either
18:51:02 <Sgeo> Did that and also had the person write down what they did
18:51:09 <elliott> hair cuts are for losers, hope this helps
18:54:05 <zzo38> I have made a sequent calculus for Turing machines; can a sequent calculus be made for sokoban, and for chess, etc?
18:54:59 <kmc> i assume so
18:55:44 <kmc> you should make a sequent calculus for sequent calculii
18:56:13 <elliott> kmc having voice is so reassuring
18:56:38 <zzo38> kmc: Do you know how to make a sequent calculus for sequent calculii?
18:57:15 <kmc> elliott: in these days of crisis it's important to have a strong leader
18:57:31 <kmc> i promise to give up my emergency powers as soon as the crisis is over
18:57:49 <myname> something to read to really understand monads?
18:58:10 <kmc> you mean in the context of Haskell?
18:58:30 <kmc> do you http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ#The_M-word
18:58:36 <zzo38> I understand it by understanding category theory a little bit and seeing how it is related to Haskell.
18:58:39 <kmc> er scratch the first two words of that
18:58:41 <kmc> just read my link
18:59:23 <kmc> that's less an explanation of monads and more an attempt to debunk various myths
18:59:38 <kmc> but I think the myths and misunderstanding are usually the big obstacle
18:59:49 <kmc> in the end Monad is just the name of a pretty simple typeclass in the standard library
19:00:02 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is mainly it.
19:00:12 <kmc> http://monads.haskell.cz/html/index.html has some examples of different standard monads and what they can be used for
19:00:30 <kmc> so do the later chapters of http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters
19:00:40 <elliott> kmc: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/All_About_Monads is canonical link i believe
19:06:16 <myname> I heard monads are like burritos or space suits full of nuclear waste. Is that true?
19:06:49 <zzo38> myname: I don't think so.
19:07:33 <kmc> i wrote that FAQ and i think a bit of my frustration with haskell myths shows through :3
19:07:44 <zzo38> Maybe it helps some people, to understand it like that. I find to understand the mathematics of it, helps a bit more than those kind of things. However, best is to see that, it is one class used for common operations of some types in Haskell.
19:08:20 <elliott> These analogies are not helpful. See "Abstraction, intuition, and the 'monad tutorial fallacy"'.
19:08:41 <kmc> wonder if i can blame pandoc somehow
19:09:01 <elliott> going to end kmc's career with this juicy mistake
19:09:09 <elliott> nobody will ever trust him again!!
19:11:26 <elliott> he might even lose his voice
19:11:46 <myname> zzo38: well, yeah, i'd prefer understanding the mathematics
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19:12:34 <kmc> the special connection between mathematics and Haskell is overrated
19:13:01 <myname> one thing i like about haskell is this
19:13:02 <elliott> kmc: disagree. the idea that it is scary and mysterious and complicated is overrated
19:13:04 <zzo38> myname: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(category_theory)
19:13:07 <elliott> but the connection is strong
19:13:23 <kmc> it gets played up a lot both by detractors who want an excuse not to learn Haskell, and by excited newbies who don't know what they're talking about
19:13:27 <zzo38> myname: After you read it, you can follow the link at the top of the article for more description of how it is related to computer programming.
19:13:58 <kmc> note i said 'special connection', programming in general is deeply connected to maths, but the idea that you need some huge maths knowledge to use Haskell that isn't necessary for other languages is ridiculous
19:14:20 <kmc> you do need to learn new /concepts/ for Haskell but they aren't really more or less "mathematical" than other programming language concepts
19:14:28 <zzo38> You don't need some huge maths knowledge to use Haskell but it can help to understand it.
19:14:34 <elliott> (and I worry that mathematics in general, and the mathematics that is relevant to Haskell specifically, has its reputation harmed by being quick to decry the idea that haskell is "mathy", because it often comes out like "you don't need to know about weird category theory category morphism cococofunctors!!!!", which is just an insult to CT)
19:14:43 <kmc> there are a lot of cool connections if you want to go looking for them
19:15:00 <kmc> doesn't mean you need them to get shit done
19:15:07 <zzo38> This mathematical stuff is what I like about Haskell programming
19:15:15 <elliott> (and generally feeds antiintellectualism in programmer culture: someone says "haskell is scary because of the maths" and your response is "don't worry, it's not scary, no maths here" -- implicitly accepting that "maths" is a reason something can be scary!)
19:15:17 <kmc> different people like different things about Haskell
19:15:28 <kmc> elliott: fair points
19:16:03 <kmc> still I want to go after the idea that you need to "understand category theory" or even "understand monads" (with a small m) to use Haskell
19:16:38 <elliott> I think of it more like: you can learn Haskell, and you'll be learning mathematics, because Haskell has a deep connection to mathematics and exposes you to a lot of it, whether you realise it or not. it's not additional work you have to perform to "understand Haskell", rather it's additional gain you get out of learning Haskell
19:16:49 <elliott> this isn't to say that learning Haskell maeks you a CT whiz or whatever
19:17:06 <elliott> the connections aren't as simplistic as that
19:17:26 <elliott> kmc: i agree it's an important fight
19:17:31 <zzo38> Well, of course you don't need to understand; actually you don't even need to understand the Monad type class except for a little bit which is how it is used with IO monad.
19:17:35 <elliott> just wish the weapons used were less heavy-handed
19:17:55 <kmc> Haskell community also makes a lot of claims that don't pan out, e.g. "We can prove things in the type system! Curry-Howard!" "but isn't every type inhabited by ⊥"
19:18:18 <kmc> "Haskell is a great language for static analysis!" "name one static analyzer besides the GHC typechecker"
19:18:42 <kmc> C is a shit language for static analysis but there are loads of static analyzers for C because it's industrially important
19:18:42 <elliott> (fwiw, I haven't seen anyone talk about proving things except from a newbie-asking-a-question POV, but may be sample error)
19:18:57 <elliott> kmc: "haskell is a great language for mental analysis" :)
19:22:03 <kmc> but you know, engineering effort is trivial, so the fact that someone *could* write a static analyzer for Haskell is just as good as the dozens of existing static analyzers for other languages
19:23:32 <kmc> that's a #haskell thing for sure
19:24:03 <kmc> i remember someone was talking about being tied to the JVM and the answer was like "you're an idiot for using the JVM, just write a custom compiler from all your JVM code to Haskell and get it working on your MLoC codebase on every platform"
19:24:50 <Sgeo> kmc, I guess other languages that would be good with static analysis, like Racket, that doesn't mean that that's a good reason to go with that approach to metaprogramming if no one is going to build tools for it...
19:25:01 <Sgeo> Although actually, I guess Typed Racket counts
19:25:17 <kmc> the Haskell tooling situation is kind of disappointing
19:25:28 <kmc> the fact that the only declarative debugger is bitrotted :/
19:26:20 <elliott> kmc: i think #haskell's problems are more mundane these days, at least :)
19:26:32 <kmc> well done new #haskell mods
19:26:33 <elliott> (not necessarily a good thing :P)
19:26:39 <kmc> what are the new problems
19:27:07 <myname> category theory is strange
19:27:07 <elliott> mostly noise and outright trolling, I'd say
19:27:17 <elliott> though the stereo and bad answes are still there
19:27:32 <elliott> it just feels like the bad answers are more boring now :P
19:28:31 <elliott> I just mean that the number of specific weird memes that people parrot seems to be decreasing
19:28:36 <elliott> perhaps inevitably as the channel grows bigger
19:28:42 <kmc> how big is it now
19:28:50 <kmc> i don't understand
19:29:19 <elliott> anyway, it might just be that less popular weird memes die out and other ones grow stronger, rather than an absolute decrease in the number of weird-meme-parrotting
19:29:30 <kmc> why does a strange language that not very many people actually use have such a huge number of IRC lurkers
19:29:53 <elliott> well, commercial haskell is getting more prominent, I think. especially with e.g. FP Complete and stuff now
19:30:14 <elliott> kmc: and also, Haskell has quite a strong presence in university courses
19:30:22 <elliott> and a lot of people join for that kind of thing
19:30:32 <elliott> (sometimes in a blatantly "do my homework" for me sense)
19:31:07 <kmc> most people in the channel never talk though
19:31:15 <kmc> and i think most people who show up to ask a specific question don't hang around
19:31:46 <kmc> not sure though
19:34:32 <kmc> some of the things I complain about might just be things that happened once and really pissed me off
19:34:35 <kmc> rather than recurring patterns
19:34:42 <kmc> some of them are definitely recurring patterns though
19:34:54 <elliott> you should join to refine your sample!!
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19:38:16 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
19:38:34 <nooodl> i should really sit down and figure out how that statement is true one day...
19:38:45 <Koen_> nid wyf yn y swyddfa? that sounds similar to the "pleidol wyf i'm gwlad" from british one-pound coins
19:38:51 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
19:38:59 <elliott> nooodl: it's pretty simple
19:39:05 <kmc> it's more correct to say they're monoid *objects*, no?
19:39:21 <nooodl> i'm guessing the binary op. is >=>?
19:39:24 <kmc> eh wikipedia says they're synonyms
19:39:41 <elliott> people relate the `? monad quip with (>=>) forming a monoid with return all the time
19:39:56 <elliott> you need to generalise your notion of "monoid"
19:40:08 <elliott> the kind of "monoid" being used here is one that exists "in a monoidal category"
19:40:22 <elliott> rather than just a value and a function in Set
20:02:55 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
20:13:12 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, it's like, return :: a -> (m a) is in a sense the identity element
20:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover> and join :: (m (m a)) -> (m a) is the monoid operation
20:14:17 <zzo38> return is the family of identity morphisms of the Kleisli category.
20:14:39 <nooodl> maybe i should look up what a monoidal category
20:14:52 <zzo38> The composition is (<=<)
20:15:42 <zzo38> Yes, that part forms a monoid, too
20:17:00 <nooodl> ooh! http://stackoverflow.com/a/3870310 this explains it pretty well
20:17:13 <nooodl> "...with product × replaced by composition of endofunctors" <-- like, this is pretty crucial
20:17:57 <shachaf> Note that product in a monoid is also called composition.
20:18:22 <elliott> I like how the answer below that is incredibly awful
20:18:24 <shachaf> It's just in a different category.
20:18:32 <elliott> anyway, http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/11/from-monoids-to-monads.html
20:19:15 <nooodl> elliott: i like how it doesn't even mention the word "endofunctor"
20:19:50 <shachaf> I like how it has 81 points and a lot of people talking about how great it is.
20:27:19 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: He defines it in that article.
20:27:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's defined later
20:28:13 <shachaf> do you think you're better than us
20:28:22 <kmc> i don't remember why
20:29:18 <elliott> kmc got drunk and the next thing he knew he woke up voiced
20:29:24 <elliott> or should i say he got drugz #drugz
20:29:27 <kmc> 02:36 <+ion> A number of channels use +v as the idiot flag.
20:29:59 <elliott> (the joke is me and shachaf are +v in #haskell-ops, hth)
20:30:14 <shachaf> the joke is that ops are +v in #haskell-ops
20:30:42 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:32:21 <kmc> ops reinvented
20:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ops that respect craftsmanship (am i doing this right)
20:33:11 <nooodl> #haskell-ops #haskell-ops
20:33:21 <kmc> respect isn't enough you have to celebrate craftsmanship
20:33:22 <nooodl> do these both look bold elliott
20:34:58 <elliott> shachaf: wow did you see what Phantom_Hoover did........
20:35:24 <shachaf> what did Phantom_Hoover did
20:35:28 <elliott> 21:30:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has joined #haskell-ops
20:35:31 <elliott> 21:30:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has left #haskell-ops ["Leaving"]
20:35:43 <kmc> all blinking text has the same frequency and phase, right
20:36:02 <elliott> shachaf: next Sgeo will join..............
20:36:51 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
20:37:02 <Sgeo> I didn't notice until you pinged me
20:37:12 <Sgeo> I did see the topic though
20:37:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you should stop doing that immediately.
20:38:00 <elliott> i assign copumpkin to ban you all
20:38:17 <kmc> hagb4rd had voice too
20:38:33 <shachaf> elliott: being in -ops when you're not an op is such a terrible offense................
20:38:47 <elliott> imo it should be criminalised
20:38:53 <shachaf> the joke is that elliott did it for months
20:42:25 <elliott> Sgeo: (btw the "what is wrong with you" wasn't due to the delay in joining it was due to the joining)
20:42:32 <elliott> (i didn't notice your response until now)
20:43:20 <kmc> sda sda1 sdb sdb1 sdc sdc1 sdd sdd1 sde sde1 sdf sdf1 sdg sdg1 sdh sdh1 sdi sdi1 sdj sdj1 sdk sdk1 sdl sdl1 sdm sdm1 sdn sdn1 sdo sdo1 sdp sdp1
20:43:21 <Sgeo> Well, at least I left
20:43:29 <shachaf> kmc: does your +v in this channel mean you're an op
20:43:37 <kmc> in what channel
20:43:46 <shachaf> kmc: you gotta tell me if you're an op
20:43:47 <kmc> probably not
20:43:57 <kmc> `addquote <shachaf> kmc: you gotta tell me if you're an op
20:44:01 <HackEgo> 1053) <shachaf> kmc: you gotta tell me if you're an op
20:45:21 <Fiora> hagb4rd totally told me earlier that I should get op
20:45:59 <shachaf> Fiora: Come on. What kind of op would you be?
20:46:07 <shachaf> Ops need to rule with an iron fist!
20:46:13 <elliott> i think that is an impressively charitable interpretation of hagb4rd
20:46:30 <fizzie> The bronze fist does 9999 damage on criticals.
20:46:38 <Fiora> shachaf: admittedly I don't think I'd do anything
20:46:42 <fizzie> You get it on level 96.
20:46:56 <Fiora> elliott: what's a less charitable interpretation?
20:47:30 <shachaf> hmm good hagb4rd in th logs
20:47:53 <elliott> well, I admit I never have almost any idea what hagb4rd is trying to say.
20:48:00 <zzo38> Iron fist? Bronze fist? Maybe you can use a paper fist.
20:48:05 <Fiora> oh -_- so he's like shachaf
20:48:16 <shachaf> zzo38: No, a fist is rock. A flat palm is paper.
20:48:27 <fizzie> The iron fist just randomly inflicts confuse.
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20:48:49 <Fiora> I-I didn't mean that... I just meant that I can never underst-- sorry
20:49:23 <nooodl> underst-- this is a democracy shachaf
20:49:32 <kmc> Stoned. Ripped. Twisted. Good people.
20:49:34 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. But maybe iron and broze fist is no good.
20:51:14 <fizzie> Also today in the bus there was someone with pink hair and cat ears and a painted-on-face grin; I think there's some sort of a "con" going on in this country.
20:51:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting).
20:51:31 <lambdabot> *** "con" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:51:31 <lambdabot> adv 1: in opposition to a proposition, opinion, etc.; "much was
20:51:31 <lambdabot> n 1: an argument opposed to a proposal [ant: {pro}]
20:51:49 <shachaf> fizzie: So you saw a con artist?
20:52:34 <fizzie> I... guess? (There were four of them, but that one was easiest to describe.)
20:55:29 <kmc> http://bash.org/?12431
20:55:51 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:57:39 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, fun fact: Active Worlds has Peacekeepers
20:57:54 -!- dessos has joined.
21:00:18 <Sgeo> http://peacekeeper.net/
21:00:53 <shachaf> I don't think any fact relating to Active Worlds can really be called fun...
21:01:12 <elliott> `pastlog shachaf.*\|.*fact
21:01:13 <Sgeo> Even the fact that anyone can go in there and delete some historical property
21:01:24 <HackEgo> 2013-04-04.txt:03:23:55: <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
21:01:26 <Sgeo> (Not sure if that's still the case going forward, but it has been the case for a long time)
21:01:55 <shachaf> elliott: Why didn't the other search find it?
21:02:56 <elliott> maybe it timed out or something
21:03:25 <shachaf> Don't timeouts get reported?
21:03:33 <shachaf> `run while true; do true; done
21:03:40 <Sgeo> http://activeworlds.com/products/citizenships.asp
21:03:46 <Sgeo> The page hasn't been updated, but the links are
21:04:06 <Sgeo> So clicking "SAVE! CLICK HERE for discounted annual online registration." tells you "Citizen Immigration is FREE."
21:04:57 <Sgeo> ...ok this page looks different from the rest of the site http://www.activeworlds.com/products/cancel.asp
21:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> did you know that shamus young helped make activeworlds
21:05:04 <Sgeo> This was the old look of the website, hmm
21:05:16 <Phantom_Hoover> it's amazing how someone so cool could be involved in something so shitt
21:05:49 <Sgeo> I don't think I've heard the name Shamus Young outside of AW
21:11:52 <kmc> what's shit about AW
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21:23:24 <fizzie> I've heard that name, but I have no recollection in which context.
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21:52:44 <shachaf> is the person in ##crypto saying bad and/or wrong things
21:56:00 <FreeFull> Huh, I didn't know about @pointful
21:56:20 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 18:Parse error: EOF
21:56:38 <FreeFull> @pointful (+3) . (+4) . (+5) `ap` 4
21:56:38 <lambdabot> Plugin `pointful' failed with: Ambiguous infix expression
21:56:46 <FreeFull> @pointful ((+3) . (+4) . (+5)) `ap` 4
21:56:47 <lambdabot> (\ b -> (4 >>= \ j -> return ((\ f -> ((f + 5) + 4) + 3) b j)) b)
21:56:52 <fizzie> @unpl (+3) . (+4) . (+5)
21:57:00 <fizzie> Is unpl a different thing than pointful?
21:57:27 <fizzie> (". unpl pl" -- or the other way around -- is often a best.)
21:57:57 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:58:25 <fizzie> @. pl unpl ((+3) . (+4) . (+5)) `ap` 4 -- I'm going to get the same thing back, right?
21:58:28 <lambdabot> ap ((4 >>=) . (return .) . (+ 3) . flip ((+) . (+ 5)) 4) id
21:58:28 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
22:08:26 <zzo38> OK, I think I managed to make a sequent calculus for sokoban now.
22:10:01 <elliott> busy rewriting eval plugin instead
22:10:16 <zzo38> Sequent calculus for chess puzzles will be far more complicated; you will need to keep track of whose turn it is, and you will need to make the opponent's turn with all possible moves above the line instead of just one.
22:14:13 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/tex/sokoban_sequent.tex Please tell me if there is a mistake.
22:15:28 <Sgeo> If these are caffeine withdrawal headaches, why do they occur so late in the day
22:16:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know.
22:16:52 -!- augur has joined.
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22:17:58 -!- augur has joined.
22:20:47 <zzo38> Is this sequent calculus for sokoban a correct implementation of the sokoban game?
22:21:07 <Lumpio-> I don't think anybody's listening
22:21:19 <zzo38> (Well, it is generalized; it allows other kinds of geometry than rectangular, and allows multiple player pieces)
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23:20:58 <hagb4rd> <elliott>i think that is an impressively charitable interpretation of hagb4rd <- charitable AND correct, btw.. that girl rulez! if i had to choose a pair for another renaissance in the matrix .. i'd choose fio and kmc! long may heir reign last and may some hard coconut fall on elliotts or hoovers head
23:22:19 <hagb4rd> if you by accident ever need a witness.. feel free to ask me.. i put my trust inya :P
23:22:41 <ais523> shachaf: I work with unusual model of logic all the time in the CS department: multiple arguments and tupling both have weird logical problems (mostly, there's two different plausible ways to implement them, and it's not clear which is meant), so currying simplifies things a lot there
23:23:33 <ais523> I had to check twice to make sure hagb4rd's line wasn't by fungot
23:23:34 <fungot> ais523: s/ syntax-case/ fnord/ fnord or is the gui stuffs in teach packs? is not just lambda calculus. the nutshell version of it. i use ion
23:23:37 <ais523> that's a mark o a good line right there :)
23:23:52 <ais523> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
23:23:53 <elliott> I find that applies to all of hagb4rd's lines
23:30:14 <Phantom_Hoover> hey hagb4rd were you the one who led itidus to this channel
23:30:40 <hagb4rd> you're repeating yourself so much poor hoovey
23:31:43 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o Phantom_Hoover.
23:32:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set channel mode: +b *!*@koln-4db420d6.pool.mediaWays.net.
23:32:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has kicked hagb4rd hagb4rd.
23:32:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o Phantom_Hoover.
23:32:29 <ais523> you can't keep the ban around, btw
23:32:33 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
23:32:38 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -b *!*@koln-4db420d6.pool.mediaWays.net.
23:32:41 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
23:32:47 <ais523> but it'll do him/her good to not be around for a while
23:33:06 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
23:33:07 <ais523> insulting channel regulars like that, out of nowhere, is not productive
23:36:32 <elliott> ais523: that was not a while
23:37:33 <hagb4rd> don't see why you get so tense again
23:38:07 <ais523> no, this isn't particularly fun, nor ontopic, nor useful
23:38:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
23:38:30 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*perdito@*.pool.mediaWays.net.
23:38:30 -!- elliott has kicked hagb4rd fuck off.
23:38:33 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
23:38:52 <ais523> I don't remember them being quite that bad last time
23:39:23 <ais523> btw, that's just based on behaviour since I've been here, I've heard there's worse in logs
23:39:29 <elliott> ais523: btw you're the best op until oerjan or fizzie overtakes you, hth
23:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> the only differentiating factor i can think of is that this time he knows there's a woman in the channel
23:45:20 <ais523> somehow I'm still finding it hard to believe that there are people who still think the internet runs on "tits or gtfo"
23:46:27 <ais523> incidentally, #xkcd (not on this server, I forget where it is; foonetic?) actually has a rule against that specifically in the topic
23:46:56 <elliott> depressing that it'd be common enough to need putting in the topic
23:47:01 <ais523> I'm not sure if it actually happened enough that they felt they had to ban it, or if it was preemptive
23:49:18 <elliott> what's with this warp language
23:51:56 <ais523> I don't remember having heard of it
23:51:56 <mnoqy> is this on the wiki
23:52:07 <ais523> elliott: btw, I got two effective kicks in a few minutes there
23:52:19 <ais523> I went and kicked a spambot from #nethack just after the hagb4rd ban
23:52:30 <elliott> imo despot. impeach ais523
23:52:34 <elliott> mnoqy: http://esolangs.org/wiki/WARP
23:52:41 <mnoqy> elliott: ya im lookin at it now
23:52:58 <ais523> elliott: you can impeach me if you like, but then good luck relying on the other ops to be online :)
23:52:59 <elliott> ais523: oh btw i sent you a lambdabot message that you've probably read
23:53:48 <elliott> part of the New #esoteric Vernacular
23:54:36 <mnoqy> so far warp looks more interesting than most new languges on the wiki these days
23:54:51 <ais523> hmm, WARP reminds me of something I was planning to do myself, but doesn't
23:55:27 <ais523> like, doesn't do itself
23:58:57 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to jockstrap.
00:03:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:04:54 -!- jockstrap has changed nick to copumpkin.
00:09:15 <ais523> err, via giving ops to people likely to kick/ban him/her
00:09:47 <elliott> i banned hagb4rd more thoroughly!
00:10:01 <elliott> it's ok to be confused, oerjan
00:10:48 <oerjan> because of his behaving like drunk? i suppose i should read the rest of the logs.
00:12:33 <kmc> i do that all the time
00:12:44 <elliott> but you have voice so it's ok
00:14:26 <oerjan> btw i think +v may cancel the +q part of +b
00:14:37 <elliott> we could test this by banning kmc
00:14:38 <oerjan> in case you want to ban someone without kicking them
00:14:53 <elliott> wouldn't want to be a part of a club that would have me as a member, etc.
00:44:16 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to MasterOfBronies.
00:45:07 -!- MasterOfBronies has changed nick to copumpkin.
00:47:00 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to TheMarquisOfTime.
00:48:44 -!- TheMarquisOfTime has changed nick to copumpkin.
00:55:25 <Sgeo> `pastelogs Sgeo.*egg
00:56:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16221
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01:04:28 <nooodl> did he /msg anyone about his being banned
01:04:42 <nooodl> hagb4rd seems like the kind of person who would do that...
01:05:34 <Sgeo> Didn't msg me at least
01:05:54 <Sgeo> I should figure out how to bring norns back from the dead
01:08:05 <kmc> didn't msg me
01:09:25 <kmc> who's that
01:09:25 <elliott> isn't it sshc you're meant to ping a lot
01:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i used to hate sshc but then it turned out he was actually an idiot which kind of spoilt it
01:10:12 <Phantom_Hoover> there are so many people in this channel who never talk
01:10:16 <kmc> who's sshc
01:10:21 <elliott> kmc: some person who never said anything
01:10:34 <elliott> which is the second-best way to attract Phantom_Hoover's ire after making a brainfuck derivative
01:10:47 <shachaf> sshc is the dual of sshd hth
01:11:24 <Sgeo> So, the brainfuck derivative that I'm making...
01:11:43 <Sgeo> Want to use pipes to implement it, but not sure if that's the best way
01:11:55 <Sgeo> Also, is there a single preferred 3-bit encoding for Brainfuck?
01:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> `^_^v, aloril, atehwa, conehead, dessos, Frooxius, ggherdov, heroux, hogeyui____, iamcal__, itsy, jix, rntz, rodgort`, sacje, samebchase, SingingBoyo, SirCmpwn, sprocklem, ssue__, TodPunk, tromp_, trout, yiyus, I hope you hear me you fucks.
01:12:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v,: not found
01:12:39 <shachaf> I think Phantom_Hoover should be kicked for that.
01:12:43 <Sgeo> Hasn't SirCmpwn spoken, or am I hallucinating?
01:12:56 <Sgeo> And conehead sounds like it's someone else renamed
01:12:58 <shachaf> SirCmpwn has spoken quite a bit, yes.
01:13:17 <Sgeo> Also, glogbot and glogbackup as far as I know have never spoken
01:13:30 <Sgeo> conehead, have we known you by a different name, or only as conehead?
01:13:39 <Sgeo> `welcome conehead
01:13:41 <HackEgo> conehead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:13:47 <conehead> lmao thanks for the welcome for the third time d:
01:14:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Why are you always so rude? You should be nicer to people.
01:15:01 <shachaf> I'll stick my head in any kind of shachaf I like, thank you very much.
01:17:49 <kmc> the best person to ping is variable / constant
01:18:19 <kmc> `quote in.toilet
01:18:21 <HackEgo> 986) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
01:19:16 <Phantom_Hoover> at least they picked the dumb phase of the glider for the hacker pride symbol
01:19:48 <HackEgo> 863) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc! \ 856) <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will \ 589) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 838) <kmc
01:20:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28869
01:22:02 <elliott> 811) <zzo38> Can you vote for just the green party or rainbow party instead of both? <kmc> nope, it is the same party <zzo38> That is the problem with political parties.
01:22:08 <elliott> 821) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
01:23:00 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-11-06.txt:00:55:16: <zzo38> Can you vote for just the green party or rainbow party instead of both?
01:23:05 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-12-03.txt:02:06:11: <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft
01:23:20 <elliott> feels like it wasn't 7 months ago
01:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> the way that whether something works in wine is entirely independent of its status in winedb
01:24:51 <shachaf> imoe everything works in wine
01:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> my favourite was when i tried to get a torrented copy of deus ex to install, and it was erroring out
01:25:22 <Phantom_Hoover> and the reaction i got from #winehq was basically 'fuck off pirate scum'
01:26:02 <kmc> there was definitely a bug / intentional feature (?) in deus ex which made it impossible to progress past the first mission if you'd used a nocd crack
01:26:32 <Sgeo> The Worms wiki links to that "You are a pirate" thing if you click the link for ... hmm, let me just find it
01:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> as i recall i may have encountered it in the steam version...
01:27:04 <kmc> http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/
01:27:08 <Sgeo> http://worms2d.info/Troubleshooting_FAQ#I_downloaded_Worms_Armageddon_from_the_Internet_without_paying._Can_you_help_me.3F
01:27:34 <Phantom_Hoover> those features are great because if there are any false positives the people trying to report them will just be treated like scum
01:27:58 <kmc> it's always great to have an excuse to treat your users like scum
01:28:25 <elliott> the wikipedia page for COINTELPRO is #3 on hacker news for some reason
01:28:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i loved that article you linked because the guy has evidently never heard of subtlety
01:29:15 <kmc> elliott: because it's topical to current events
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01:31:47 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:34:03 <lambdabot> Alright, you!! Imitate a WOUNDED SEAL pleading for a PARKING SPACE!!
01:34:10 <kmc> elliott: but...
01:35:43 <oerjan> OOO II OOO OOOO IAA OO AAAAAA
01:36:10 <kmc> "This went on for some time."
01:36:21 <shachaf> how should i learn about linear algebra
01:36:31 <oerjan> just use the matrix hth
01:37:46 <oerjan> the only way to stop being an expert is to become a pert again
01:41:29 <sacje> hello Phantom_Hoover why did you ping me
01:41:55 <sacje> i'll go back to not talking now
01:45:59 -!- augur_ has joined.
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01:48:55 <oerjan> <kmc> sda sda1 sdb sdb1 sdc sdc1 sdd sdd1 sde sde1 sdf sdf1 sdg sdg1 sdh sdh1 sdi sdi1 sdj sdj1 sdk sdk1 sdl sdl1 sdm sdm1 sdn sdn1 sdo sdo1 sdp sdp1 <-- are these assembly commands
01:49:52 <kmc> they are block devices
01:50:02 <kmc> i have sdq sdq1 now as well
01:50:11 <shachaf> what happens when you reach sdz
01:50:19 <kmc> nobody knows
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01:50:55 <Sgeo> He likes mounting?
01:54:01 <zzo38> What is the computational class of sequent calculus?
01:54:47 <kmc> well you implemented turing machines using one
01:56:20 <zzo38> Yes, at least I think I have; it isn't reviewed by someone else, in order to check to make sure. Also, that doesn't mean in case there is some higher computational class it has, although I don't think it is more powerful than Turing-complete, but I might be wrong.
01:56:27 <ais523> how many of those correspond to actual physical disks?
01:56:52 <kmc> all of them
01:57:12 <shachaf> Except for the ones that end with digits.
01:57:24 <ais523> those correspond to subsets of disks
01:57:52 <zzo38> Do you have a lot of disks in your computer? If so, why? Are some of them connection for CF card, SD card, CD, DVD, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, 3.5" floppy disk, 5.25" floppy disk, 8" floppy disk, Quick Disk, etc?
01:58:11 <kmc> i have a fileserver with 12 hard drives, 2 SSDs for boot, and I also have three USB hard drives connected for various purposes
01:58:20 <kmc> none of them is Quick Disk
01:58:36 <ais523> realisation: I can, with a decent success rate, tell which email account I'm receiving spam on by its title
01:58:51 <ais523> nethack4.org mostly gets SEO spammers
01:59:13 <pikhq_> zzo38: I don't own a 5.25" floppy drive, but I do possess the connections for one.
01:59:20 <ais523> (ofc, if you want to hire a good SEO company, simply do a web search for "search engine optimization" and pick the first company in the results…)
01:59:39 <ais523> pikhq_: I have a USB 3.5" floppy drive, and have used it on occasion
01:59:57 <pikhq_> I have an internal 3.5" drive still. I've not used it in years.
02:00:01 <zzo38> The floppy drive in my computer is broken so I connect an external floppy drive when I need to use it.
02:00:03 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:00:07 <pikhq_> I get more use out of my CD burner. Which is older.
02:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> (ofc, if you want to hire a good SEO company, simply do a web search for "search engine optimization" and pick the first company in the results)
02:00:35 <ais523> also, that's a weird encoding fail
02:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> idk about you but i'm not especially eager to get coventrian search results
02:00:59 <ais523> and your client turns it into some sort of heterosexuality symbol
02:01:04 <ais523> also, you live in Coventry?
02:01:11 <elliott> the ellipsis looks fine to me...
02:01:18 <ais523> elliott: in Phantom_Hoover's quote of me
02:01:30 <pikhq_> ais523: They look like they're both the same codepoints to me.
02:01:32 <ais523> I thought you were in Scotland still
02:01:39 <pikhq_> I think it's your system that's jacking up.
02:01:39 <ais523> in that case my client has come up with an entirely new failure mode
02:02:03 <pikhq_> Oh, no, it's not your client.
02:02:16 <kmc> and by "SSDs for boot" I mean the whole root filesystem is on those as well
02:02:38 <kmc> it will boot unattended but it doesn't have the crypto keys for the big disk array until i log in and provide it
02:03:52 <pikhq_> Looking at the logs, PhantomHoover emitted 0x85 where you emitted 0xe2 0x80 0xa6.
02:04:57 <pikhq_> That is to say, Phantom_Hoover wrote out Windows-1252 instead of UTF-8.
02:05:07 <kmc> oh for '…'
02:05:12 <elliott> yeah xchat has broken unicode settings by default
02:05:12 <pikhq_> Switch your encoding to "Unicode" instead of "IRC".
02:05:17 <elliott> switch it to utf-8 you mean?
02:05:23 <elliott> i don't think there's a "unicode" encoding in the list
02:05:27 <kmc> `run printf '\xe2\x80\xa6' | iconv -t cp1252 | hd
02:05:29 <HackEgo> 00000000 85 |.| \ 00000001
02:05:42 <elliott> (how xchat does unicode by default: try to stuff it into whatever single-byte thing windows uses, and then use utf-8 if it fails)
02:05:43 <pikhq_> "IRC" encoding is "if the character exists in Windows-1252 write it out as Windows-1252, otherwise write UTF-8".
02:05:48 <pikhq_> Which is utterly broken.
02:06:08 <kmc> i'm fine with that for decoding, but not for encoding
02:06:15 -!- augur has joined.
02:06:18 <kmc> lol postel's law
02:06:25 <zzo38> You shouldn't use that encoding. Use a proper encoding, such as Windows-1252 or UTF-8, not both of them together!
02:06:35 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-055 is the thing I was thinking of.
02:06:42 <pikhq_> Yes. It makes perfect sense to fall *back* to Windows-1252 when decoding...
02:06:54 <kmc> shachaf: when were you thinking of it
02:06:55 <elliott> shachaf: since when do you like anything the other sam hughes does
02:07:04 <elliott> kmc: well you see he forgot about it shortly after (-:
02:07:15 <pikhq_> As it's horribly unlikely for something to be valid UTF-8 but intended as Windows-1252.
02:07:16 <zzo38> Or just use ASCII if you don't need any other encodings.
02:07:43 <pikhq_> zzo38: Ah, UCS-7/8ths.
02:07:50 <Sgeo> I hate both my dad and step-mom
02:07:52 <pikhq_> Yes, I will gladly consider that a sane encoding.
02:08:01 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe, but still you shouldn't use both encodings together; it is still possible and it is conflicting.
02:08:19 <kmc> Sgeo: why?
02:08:44 <pikhq_> zzo38: By the way, "UCS-7/8ths" is just a snarky reference to ASCII, as 7 bits of Unicode is equal to ASCII.
02:09:02 <pikhq_> Likewise UCS-1 a snarky reference to Latin-1.
02:09:10 <zzo38> There are some characters that IRC messages cannot contain; but, if you are using the UTF-8 then it is possible to use the overlong encodings of them.
02:09:51 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, I suppose, anyways they are have that compatibility which at least mean it works, so you can write one ASCII program and read by UTF-8 or vice-versa as long as only characters in ASCII range are being used.
02:10:00 <Sgeo> My step-mom is utterly against me dating non-Jewish girls. I am currently dating a non-Jewish girl. My dad wants to keep this hidden from my step-mom for "a while longer". I already dislike my step-mother for other reasons, having to avoid the subject/lie etc. because my dad's not willing to have her get angry doesn't help things
02:10:07 <zzo38> Unfortunately they don't always do that, but they should!
02:10:56 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Have you considered asking her why she wants every little boy to receive genital mutilation.
02:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so wait is she actually all 1930s southern about it
02:11:02 <elliott> arent you independent of -- pikhqqqqqqq
02:11:07 <elliott> -- your stepmom and father now anyway
02:11:20 <Sgeo> elliott, hahahahahaha I wish
02:12:14 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: `What?
02:12:18 <elliott> Sgeo: imo that would be a good thing for you
02:13:05 <mnoqy> pikhq............................
02:13:33 <Sgeo> pikhq_, ...what's with the weird question mark?
02:13:47 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Full-width question mark.
02:15:00 <Sgeo> But... I'm using a monospaced font.... I think
02:15:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY we were talking about your awful family before pikhq....
02:15:51 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Ah. Yes.
02:16:23 <pikhq_> Though less so as I am independent-ish and intending to stay that way.
02:19:01 <mnoqy> just pikhq being pikhq
02:22:24 <kmc> Sgeo: even in fixed width font terminals, some characters take up one cell and some take up two
02:22:46 <kmc> you can't reasonably draw CJK characters in the narrow space used for a single Latin letter
02:23:19 <kmc> two adjacent cells gives you a square area that is much more reasonable
02:23:26 <SirCmpwn> Sgeo: shachaf: Phantom_Hoover: I speak here infrequently
02:23:40 <kmc> in some legacy encodings, two-cell characters were all two bytes and one-cell characters were one byte
02:23:55 <kmc> did Sgeo though
02:23:56 <Sgeo> Hmm. Guess I shouldn't have taken that anti-hallucinogenic that is lethal if there are in fact no hallucinations.
02:24:59 <Sgeo> (re: me wondering if I was hallucinating and Phantom_Hoover saying I was, re: whether or not SirCmpwn talks also: my failure at humor)
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02:35:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: how should i learn about linear algebra
02:35:25 <kmc> read nielsen and chuang
02:36:28 <Sgeo> Someone posts in the AW group asking for help getting the SDK working with Python... so I show them my code... eventually they ask "What is self?"
02:36:38 <lambdabot> Identity {runIdentity = *Exception: Prelude.undefined
02:37:00 <elliott> that show instance is derived in L.hs
02:37:21 <shachaf> Sgeo: teach them to call it "this" just to be different hth
02:38:28 <shachaf> kmc: Quantum Computation and Quantum Information?
02:38:29 <Sgeo> I was hoping not to have to teach them Python
02:39:14 <kmc> only half serious suggestion
02:39:18 <kmc> it's a good book though
02:39:30 <kmc> and it has an intro to linalg (and an intro to CS) and it's supposed to be kind of self contained
02:39:41 <kmc> but it may not be the best way.......
02:42:11 <oerjan> > undefined :: (Int, Int)
02:42:26 <oerjan> > undefined :: (Int, Int, Int)
02:55:59 <shachaf> The idea behind `IO` is that it contaminates everything it touches
02:58:03 <Sgeo> In a similar way as that idea about contamination contaminates everything it touches?
02:58:47 <kmc> shachaf: v_v
02:58:55 <kmc> why are you repeating wrong thinfgs
02:58:58 <kmc> without even quoting them
02:59:07 <shachaf> kmc: picked up the habit from elliott hth
02:59:16 <elliott> kmc: it's so you'll join #haskell in a desperate attempt to avoid it
02:59:23 <kmc> i'm not that stupid
02:59:34 <elliott> kmc: what can i say, shachaf doesn't think much of you
02:59:43 <kmc> shachafffffffffff
02:59:46 <shachaf> elliott: apparently i think even less of you
03:00:10 <shachaf> kmc: are you calling all the cool people in #haskell stupid
03:00:15 <kmc> i've had like... two beers all day
03:00:34 <shachaf> copumpkin: it's ok kmc is just drunk
03:01:00 <kmc> there should be a fullwidth ⊥, it would look so much better, hth
03:01:17 <kmc> there should be a combining character that makes any character fullwidth TAKE THAT
03:01:20 <elliott> kmc: what a coincidence, i've had 0 beers all day
03:01:38 <elliott> kmc: i didn't have -2 beers
03:01:53 <shachaf> 2AE9 SHORT UP TACK ABOVE SHORT DOWN TACK [⫩]
03:02:23 <shachaf> elliott: your domain theory exercise of the day is to come up with a meaning for all these symbols hth
03:03:04 <Sgeo> kmc, zero-width space + fullwidth combining character
03:03:25 <kmc> infinite loop
03:04:23 <shachaf> My experience is that the fastest way to learn category is to author Haskell libraries
03:04:43 <shachaf> The reason is that the art of good API design is very closely intertwined with category theory
03:09:40 -!- Bike has joined.
03:16:16 <kmc> would be nice to have any kind of detail on that claim
03:16:37 <shachaf> you could join #haskell and ask for it
03:17:47 <kmc> if a statement matches your presupposed notions and your general 'everyone else is dumb' attitude then it must be true
03:18:41 <Bike> so i just wanted to say that the McAllister Hall here is for interior decorating and English language intensive students
03:18:51 <kmc> I think the overall state of Haskell API design is not too great
03:18:59 <kmc> and I never once came across an API design guideline document
03:19:13 <kmc> maybe this category theory expert could write one instead of hoarding that delicious knowledge
03:20:11 <kmc> that's not 'the #haskell spirit'
03:22:05 <copumpkin> every few hours I see him making a snarky remark about #haskell
03:22:10 <kmc> like a fine india pale ale
03:22:21 <kmc> it's not every few hours ;P
03:22:28 <kmc> anyway shachaf brought it up
03:22:38 <kmc> shachaf provoked me
03:23:18 <shachaf> i wish #haskell was a thousand clones of copumpkin
03:23:21 <shachaf> maybe then it would be good
03:23:33 <copumpkin> probably a lot quieter, given how much I speak in there
03:23:36 <shachaf> note: i do not wish the same thing about #haskell-blah
03:23:55 <shachaf> It would be all copumpkin links.
03:24:06 <kmc> copumpkin_jokes.pdf
03:24:13 <elliott> what if we /invite'd kmc to #haskell
03:24:23 <copumpkin> perhaps he has autojoin on invite set
03:24:27 <kmc> don't think so
03:24:28 <Bike> what if kmc /invited'd #haskell to us?
03:24:30 <copumpkin> quick quick get him before he turns it off
03:24:37 <kmc> is that a default setting in irssi
03:25:01 <elliott> copumpkin: imo there's one way to find out
03:25:13 <elliott> #haskell ops so professional
03:25:39 <elliott> ok how about this, we ban everyone but kmc
03:25:47 <shachaf> then it would be a monic win
03:26:02 <Bike> the channel for discussing a #haskell with kmc in it
03:26:11 <copumpkin> I thought I was the only one to make that pun
03:26:21 <Bike> you overestimate shachaf
03:26:40 <copumpkin> at least I can see the effect it has on one's interlocutors
03:26:51 <shachaf> copumpkin misunderestimated me
03:26:52 <elliott> new plan: give kmc ops and then he'll feel obligated to join
03:26:57 <Bike> oh hagbard got banned huh
03:27:11 <elliott> do i even have permissions to add ops
03:27:19 <Bike> do you have permissions to /cs clear users
03:27:52 <shachaf> elliott: yes because glguy trusts you to be a reasonable op hth
03:28:00 <Bike> wait he called phantom_hoover "hoovie"
03:28:38 <shachaf> kmc: if you were an op would you rule #haskell with an iron fist
03:28:45 <oerjan> <+kmc> would be nice to have any kind of detail on that claim <-- just ask edwardk and tekmo hth
03:29:46 <kmc> does edwardk agree with tekmo
03:33:55 <oerjan> kmc: well it's like part of the underlying philosophy of both lens and pipes, so...
03:34:48 <oerjan> well, maybe pipes more than lens
03:35:25 <Bike> maybe there should be a library called "raven" and a tool or something called "writing desk"
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03:36:09 <shachaf> lens's philosophy is hardly categorical
03:36:59 <kmc> I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical / From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical
03:37:36 <shachaf> one time i knew the lyrics to that but no longer :'(
03:37:59 <oerjan> if people keep quoting it maybe i'll know them soon
03:39:54 <elliott> hmm i wasn't tired at all like half an hour ago
03:40:03 <elliott> and i leaned on my arm funny and now it hurts
03:40:11 <Bike> don't lean on your arm funny
03:40:13 <shachaf> You'll wake up in an hour and a half and feel really awful.
03:40:27 <elliott> Bike: but it was comfortable at the time
03:40:28 <shachaf> Bike: do you gotta insult people like that :'(
03:40:57 <oerjan> elliott: is it like crawling with ants twnh
03:41:00 <elliott> Bike: i like the insults, keep em comin
03:41:31 <Bike> don't lean on your arm funny
03:42:08 <Bike> stop liking it, liker
03:44:42 <Sgeo> Should I keep reading that book or work on bringing creatures back from the dead?
03:44:58 <Bike> probably the book because you don't mean real animals because you suck
03:45:51 <Sgeo> Shyamalan: The book isn't real either
03:46:00 <Sgeo> [It's real... well, ebooks count as real, right?]
03:46:10 <Bike> sorry (not sorry)
03:51:14 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/zT3jWJG.png probably people have seen this, but.
03:53:12 <oerjan> why are you egging us on with that fowl book
03:53:13 <Bike> http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Bounded_gaps_between_primes wowie, watch that shit drop
03:54:06 <oerjan> ooh big leap today, although still tentative
03:54:22 <kmc> Bike: is that real
03:55:06 <elliott> We have not been able to recognize your IP address as one of the subscribers to the Annals of Mathematics. Please note that online access to PDF copies of articles is by subscription only.
03:55:28 <elliott> damn this progress is beastly
03:55:35 <elliott> like "fuck it, time to solve this already"
03:55:40 <Bike> There are all kinds of discrete math texts out there. Discrete Mathematics with Applications, Discrete Mathematics with Algorithms, Discrete Mathematics with Graph Theory. The list goes on. And yet somehow people had neglected (until now!) to publish a textbook presenting discrete mathematics with ducks. This book fills that gap.
03:59:11 <Sgeo> If that's real, I should read it. I read the cartoon guide to statistics when I was a kid
04:00:53 <oerjan> wait, some of my answers above were about the prime thing, not the ducks hth
04:02:39 <kmc> Discrete Mathematics with No Applications
04:06:18 <Sgeo> Fun doesn't count as an application?
04:06:28 <Sgeo> Maybe they could make math boring somehow...
04:07:01 <Bike> is fun an applicative
04:08:38 <elliott> > let x = error ('q':x) in x
04:08:39 <lambdabot> "*Exception: q*Exception: q*Exception: q*Exception: q*Exception: q*Exceptio...
04:09:02 <elliott> > let foo s = error (s ++ foo ('q':s)) in foo ""
04:09:04 <lambdabot> "*Exception: q*Exception: qq*Exception: qqq*Exception: qqqq*Exception: qqqq...
04:09:35 <elliott> > let foo s = error (s ++ foo (error 'q':s)) in foo ""
04:09:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
04:09:42 <elliott> > let foo s = error (s ++ foo (error "q":s)) in foo ""
04:11:51 <Bike> > let x = error x in x
04:11:52 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
04:12:48 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
04:13:06 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
04:14:22 <shachaf> > fix (show . error) -- that should interleave them, right?
04:14:23 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
04:14:52 <Bike> > fix (error . show)
04:14:54 <lambdabot> *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
04:17:03 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
04:19:11 <elliott> kmc: just think how much more insightful #haskell must be compared to this
04:20:11 <Bike> i am the anti-insight
04:31:39 <oerjan> > error "test\nho\nhi"
04:36:59 -!- jconn has joined.
04:43:37 <kmc> shachaf: oh I found a place to live in SF
04:43:46 <zzo38> Which assemblers have an emulator built-in which can be used as a postprocessor and/or to make macros?
04:44:12 <kmc> in the Mission, 26th and Bryant or so
04:45:07 <kmc> i will officially be one of those overpaid software jerks in the mission
04:45:24 <shachaf> oh no are you going to turn into a jerk
04:45:32 <shachaf> can you just be a jerk in the full moon or something
04:46:01 <kmc> probably I will arrive like Friday the 28th or so
04:46:07 <kmc> does copumpkin turn into a pumpkin
04:46:15 <shachaf> no, just the full moon part
04:46:51 <kmc> then he turns back into a copumpkin
04:47:00 <zzo38> Maybe the full moon time is at midnight, though.
04:47:03 <shachaf> look i don't know how it works
04:47:34 <zzo38> I have a software "Astrolog" to calculate precisely the phase of moon and even the distance of moon.
04:48:32 <oerjan> aha let me look closer
05:01:11 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
05:01:25 -!- Bike has joined.
05:05:11 <oerjan> > let x £ y = x + y in 1 £ 2
05:07:40 <HackEgo> Thanks, geology. Theology.
05:08:29 <zzo38> Will you review my sequent calculus for Turing machine and for Sokoban at some time?
05:08:31 <Sgeo> `paste bin/thanks
05:08:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/thanks
05:08:46 <zzo38> I want to know if you found a mistake, please!
05:09:21 <Sgeo> `thanks consonants
05:09:23 <HackEgo> Thanks, consonants. Thonsonants.
05:09:24 <zzo38> Anyone who does, such as, possibly you!
05:14:09 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
05:30:12 -!- L8D has joined.
05:30:18 <L8D> Just joined the wiki
05:30:30 <L8D> I made an entry for my language
05:46:38 <mnoqy> guess i'll check it out
05:46:47 <L8D> thanks...I guess
05:47:09 <mnoqy> hm ph doesn't seem to be around. i think he'd like it
05:48:19 <mnoqy> what are you suggesting here, oerjan!!
05:48:46 <L8D> +++++ +++++ [ > +++++ +++++ < - ] > ++++ . + > .
05:50:18 <fizzie> ^bf +++++ +++++ [ > +++++ +++++ < - ] > ++++ . + > .
05:51:10 <L8D> +++++ +++++ [ > +++++ +++++ < - ] > ++++ . + . > .
05:51:25 <L8D> Was typing with one hand...
05:51:53 <L8D> ;>;<[>[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]<<-]>>>:
05:52:32 <L8D> ^bf ;>;<[>[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]<<-]>>>:
05:52:46 <L8D> Oh wait...
05:52:56 <L8D> ^bf +++++ +++++ [ > +++++ +++++ < - ] > ++++ . + . > .
05:53:47 <fizzie> fungot: Well hi to yourself, too.
05:53:47 <fungot> fizzie: " eat up" values... first it's a number, a meaningful operator.
05:54:25 <Sgeo> Hey! Some functions are numbers too!
05:54:51 <Sgeo> So yes, numbers are meaningful operators
05:56:49 <L8D> What other languages can fungot do?
05:56:49 <fungot> L8D: oh. when was this exactly?
05:57:08 <L8D> fungot: 5 past 10
05:57:08 <fungot> L8D: found out the truth from the source then :s)
05:57:46 <L8D> fungot: :s/)/\/source\/g
05:57:47 <fungot> L8D: but one is actually putting the code in compile-time would be not be/ not be
05:58:47 <L8D> fungot ? fungot.brain = true : fungot.brain = false;
05:58:48 <fungot> L8D: well i need to take another cue from stephenson and use nlp for disciplinary and learning purposes. it was the same guy as in fnord fnord
06:01:18 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
06:01:53 <L8D> Nice, befunge
06:02:41 <L8D> ^underload (0)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
06:03:06 <fizzie> ^ul (0)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
06:03:06 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
06:03:17 <fizzie> (It goes for short commands.)
06:03:21 <L8D> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
06:03:22 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
06:03:29 <fizzie> Of course for serious business, there's always
06:03:32 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
06:04:03 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
06:04:14 <L8D> !c printf("asdf");
06:05:13 <fizzie> `run \? HackEgo # and for even more serious things...
06:05:15 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
06:05:56 <shachaf> mnoqy: this is a derivitave
06:07:50 <shachaf> elliott: what's the matter
06:07:57 <fizzie> elliott: I wanted a comment. :/
06:09:12 <fizzie> Okay, I guess you can also type anything after `help itself.
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06:11:47 <L8D> `run wget http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt
06:11:49 <HackEgo> --2013-06-16 06:11:49-- http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-06-16 06:11:49 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
06:12:22 <fizzie> There's a very small whitelist of things accessible from inside; but you can use the `fetch command.
06:12:42 <L8D> `fetch http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt
06:13:28 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal \ [1;24r[?25h[?8c[?25h[?0c[27m[24m[0m[H[J[?25l[?1c[2;1H[1m[34m~ [3;1H~ [4;1H~
06:13:29 <HackEgo> 2013-06-16 06:13:28 URL:http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt [9128/9128] -> "bf.asm.txt" [1]
06:13:46 <L8D> `killall vim
06:14:05 <L8D> `nasm -f bin -o bfc -f bf.asm.txt
06:14:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nasm: not found
06:14:16 <L8D> `yasm -f bin -o bfc -f bf.asm.txt
06:14:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yasm: not found
06:14:37 <L8D> Doesn't even have an assemblerr
06:14:51 <fizzie> 'as' should be enough for everyone.
06:15:07 <L8D> `as -f bin -o bfc -f bf.asm.txt
06:15:07 <HackEgo> GNU assembler (GNU Binutils for Debian) 2.20.1-system.20100303 \ Copyright 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This program is free software; you may redistribute it under the terms of \ the GNU General Public License version 3 or later. \ This program has absolutely no warranty. \ This assembler was configured for a target of `x86_64-linux-gnu'.
06:15:09 <HackEgo> as: unrecognized option '- bin -o bfc -f bf.asm.txt'
06:15:20 <fizzie> Of course it won't assemble *that*; it's GNU as.
06:15:46 <L8D> `git --version
06:15:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: git: not found
06:16:15 <fizzie> `run hg --version # also opinionated when it comes to version control
06:16:16 <HackEgo> Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 1.6.4) \ \ Copyright (C) 2005-2010 Matt Mackall <mpm@selenic.com> and others \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
06:16:45 <L8D> `fetch http://github.com/L8D/delvs/archive/master.tar.gz
06:16:50 <HackEgo> 2013-06-16 06:16:49 URL:https://codeload.github.com/L8D/delvs/tar.gz/master [4026/4026] -> "master.tar.gz" [1]
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06:17:09 <L8D> `tar zxf master.tar.gz
06:17:11 <HackEgo> tar: Old option `f' requires an argument. \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
06:17:21 <L8D> `tar xf master.tar.gz
06:17:22 <HackEgo> tar: Old option `f' requires an argument. \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
06:17:27 <fizzie> You need to `run things that you want to have multiple arguments.
06:17:38 <L8D> `run tar xf master.tar.gz
06:17:48 <HackEgo> \ bf.asm.txt \ bin \ canary \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ test.hi \ Test.hi \ test.hs \ Test.hs \ test.o \ Test.o \ uk \ uk.1 \ wisdom
06:17:55 <fizzie> (Plain `tar xf master.tar.gz is akin to `run tar 'xf master.tar.gz'.)
06:18:17 <L8D> `run rm bf.asm.txt master.tar.gz
06:18:28 <L8D> `cd delvs-master
06:18:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
06:18:51 <L8D> `cat test.hs
06:18:52 <HackEgo> import Data.Maybe (catMaybes) \ import Data.List (group, sort, stripPrefix) \ main = mapM_ putStrLn . map (\s -> head s ++ " occurs->" ++ show (length s)) . group . sort . catMaybes . map (stripPrefix "username:" . (!!2) . words) . lines =<< getContents
06:19:05 <fizzie> There's no shell involved for plain `command. And there's no persistence either, so `run cd something won't be any more useful.
06:19:35 <L8D> `run cd delvs-master;make
06:19:37 <HackEgo> gcc -Wall -std=c11 -Werror main.c -o main.o \ cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-std=c11" \ make: *** [objects] Error 1
06:20:01 <L8D> :rageface:
06:20:11 <L8D> `run rm -rf delvs-master
06:20:25 <HackEgo> \ bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ test.hi \ Test.hi \ test.hs \ Test.hs \ test.o \ Test.o \ uk \ uk.1 \ wisdom
06:20:27 <oerjan> Gregor: YOU HAVE COMPLAINTS
06:20:32 <fizzie> It's not the future yet.
06:20:40 <HackEgo> \ bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ test.hi \ Test.hi \ test.hs \ Test.hs \ test.o \ Test.o \ uk \ uk.1 \ wisdom
06:20:59 <L8D> Gregor: GIVE HackEgo GCC
06:21:25 <L8D> It doesn't have god damn c11
06:21:31 <L8D> that was 2 years ago!!!!!
06:22:02 <oerjan> i think Gregor is rather absent
06:22:19 <oerjan> idle for 2 days 7 hours
06:22:52 <elliott> thankfully hackego was spared a brainfuck derivative interpreter
06:25:33 <fizzie> FWIW, there doesn't seem to be anything in the code that wouldn't just work with -std=c99.
06:25:37 <L8D> `run ./delvs hi-bool.bf
06:25:48 <L8D> `cat hi-bool.bf
06:25:49 <HackEgo> 01001000 H \ "'""'""".> \ 01100101 e \ "''""'"'.> \ 01101100 l \ "''"''"".> \ 01101100 l \ "''"''"".> \ 01101111 o \ "''"''''.> \ 00100000 \ ""'""""".> \ 01010111 W \ "'"'"'''.> \ 01101111 o \ "''"''''.> \ 01110010 r \ "'''""'".> \ 01101100 l \ "''"''"".> \ 01100100 d \ "''""'"".> \ 00100001 \ ""'""""'.> \ 00001010 \ """"'"'".>
06:26:52 <shachaf> i guess hackego wasn't spared
06:26:53 <L8D> What's wrong with a brainfuck derivative interpreter besides abundance?
06:28:12 <L8D> My Brainfuck-derivative
06:28:36 <L8D> It's pronounced /Dell-viss/
06:28:40 <myname> it doesn't look like brainfuck at all
06:29:10 <L8D> Well, that's the boolean version of hello world
06:29:39 <myname> which is what i cannot read
06:29:56 <L8D> `run cp delvs-master/samples/multiply.bf .
06:29:56 <fizzie> The numbers and letters are presumably just comments.
06:29:58 <myname> how does it translate to "normal" delvs
06:30:14 <L8D> `cat multiply.bf
06:30:16 <HackEgo> ;>; \ < [ \ > [ \ > + \ > + \ << - \ ] \ > [ \ < + \ > - \ ] \ << - \ ] \ >>> :
06:30:46 <L8D> `run echo 5 5 | ./delvs multiply.bf
06:30:49 <fizzie> (For the record, the interpreter has an off-by-one problem.)
06:31:03 <L8D> fizzie: In the end of loops?
06:31:16 <L8D> What do you mean?
06:31:16 <fizzie> No; in the size of file.
06:31:27 <fizzie> The file contents as a string take size+1 bytes, not size.
06:31:52 <fizzie> Cf. http://sprunge.us/DcLW
06:32:48 <L8D> Do you have the hi-bool.bf in your directory?
06:32:55 <mnoqy> 23:26:54 <L8D> What's wrong with a brainfuck derivative interpreter besides abundance?
06:33:08 <fizzie> (It also has a g.vars-not-initialized problem.)
06:33:30 <mnoqy> overdone has a different connotation
06:33:34 <mnoqy> IMO worth stressing
06:35:59 <oerjan> but overdoing is so easy
06:36:30 <mnoqy> oh right also should throw in "unoriginal" [slightly different again!!!! worth stressing]
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07:29:02 <zzo38> I happen to think C11 and C99 has many stupid things.
07:32:36 <zzo38> Flexible arrays; GNU supports zero-length arrays with works much better.
07:33:03 <zzo38> Also the way they implement a lot of things such as having complex numbers built-in, etc, is I think stupid to have in C.
07:34:38 <shachaf> What's the difference compared to GNU zero-length arrays?
07:35:10 <zzo38> The difference is described in the GNU documentation. Zero-length arrays is a much more logical implementation.
07:36:05 <shachaf> I don't see a very significant difference.
07:38:12 <zzo38> I once wrote how I would think is better way to extend C89.
07:40:31 <zzo38> (Maybe you might have seen this.)
07:41:45 <zzo38> Well, it is available at: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/black_c.txt
07:52:54 <zzo38> It gives you some of the benefits of macro assemblers. It also gives you some of the benefits of C++, but without all of the stupidity that goes with it.
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08:24:35 <zzo38> I made a sequent calculus of a subtraction game S(1,2,3). There are six rules, three with nothing above the line, and three which each have three sequents above the line. The theorems of this system are numbers that aren't divisible by four (and it is easy to see what goes wrong when you try to prove them).
08:30:31 <zzo38> There are three rules which will accept |- ########0 below the line. If you use rule T1, then you need to prove |- ####0, |- #####0, and |- ######0. However there is no rule which allows proving |- ####0 so you can see it won't work. The similar thing occurs with the other rules.
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08:34:59 <zzo38> But 9 is possible to prove, by using rule T1, to get 5, 6, and 7 above the line. To prove 5, use rule T1. To prove 6, use rule T2. To prove 7, use rule T3. In all cases you will get 1, 2, and 3 above the line, and 1, 2, and 3 are all axioms. Q.E.D.
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09:17:53 <Taneb> @unmtl ReaderT Maybe a b
09:18:00 <Taneb> @unmtl ReaderT a Maybe b
09:19:49 <shachaf> @unmtl MaybeT (Reader a) b
09:22:58 <Taneb> Bad bracket handling
09:23:10 <Taneb> @unmtl StateT s (Reader a) b
09:40:25 <FreeFull> zzo38: I really like complex.h myself
09:41:22 <FreeFull> I have made use of complex numbers in C before
09:42:01 <shachaf> Taneb: when are you coming to california btw
09:45:11 <shachaf> That's at least 2.5 more years of not being in CA.
09:46:49 <fizzie> Not if you take a wormhole.
09:47:16 <shachaf> Well, sure, that's an implicit qualifier on most things I say.
09:47:59 <fizzie> If you are going / to San Fran Cisco...
09:51:30 <fizzie> Speaking of which, this was off the side of the path on Thursday: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130616-p1170896.jpg
09:51:42 <fizzie> (It's like living in the NATURE.)
09:54:06 <shachaf> do you have something smaller than THREE MEGABYTES hth
09:59:42 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130616-p1170896-small.jpg less than six hundred kilobytes hth
10:00:19 <fizzie> It's the sort of thing you'd dump all that flour on.
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10:26:54 <zzo38> FreeFull: Maybe yes you can use complex numbers in C, I think it can be useful in some programs, but I don't like the way C99 implements built-in complex numbers.
10:39:15 <zzo38> Yes, it isn't COBOL either!
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12:40:15 <zzo38> There is no thorn in Computer Modern font
12:44:12 <Bike> http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/39684-1284372742.png
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13:11:35 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of C99, in general?
13:11:39 * kmc thinks he already knows the answer
13:12:17 <Bike> there are several good things, but also some bad things, which i would change
13:13:56 <Bike> for example, trigrams should be extended with tetragrams
13:14:34 <Bike> it's like two am fuck you
13:15:37 <kmc> 4/20, smoke weed every day
13:15:41 <kmc> how can it be two am
13:15:49 <kmc> i just woke up, it's light out and shit
13:15:53 <kmc> i am like a normal person now
13:16:04 <kmc> AND DO YOU KNOW WHY? http://w1mx.mit.edu/flea-at-mit
13:16:33 <Bike> a swap meet, huh
13:16:35 <Bike> do they have good stuff
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13:19:29 <kmc> they have entertaining stuff
13:19:45 <kmc> i probably won't buy anything because i'm moving soon
13:19:51 <kmc> i'm going to try to sell some shit
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13:20:16 <fizzie> Sunrise here is around 03:54am these days, and it's reasonably light two am too.
13:21:14 <kmc> Bike: the clientele is 50% young nerds in t-shirt and cargo pants (i.e. me) and 50% old guys with huge beards and suspenders who are trying to buy obscure vacuum tubes
13:21:31 <kmc> one of the latter was telling me about how back during the war he had the biggest radio in New Jersey
13:21:59 <kmc> good question
13:22:55 <kmc> gulf of tonkin
13:23:44 <fizzie> "during the World War" "first or second?" "there was a second?!"
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13:26:55 <Taneb> When was it when the Swedish army invented tinned food?
13:27:57 <fizzie> Probably the you-must-be-making-that-up war.
13:28:33 <Bike> i understand that constitutes most of sweden's wars
13:29:01 <kmc> MIT has a lobby with a big wall honoring alums who died in World War I, another wall honoring alums who died in World War II, and a big blank wall
13:29:11 <Taneb> Oh, it was the French
13:29:35 <Bike> kmc: effective
13:29:59 <Bike> hm i should check wikipedia's inevitable list of conflicts called "world war iii"
13:31:20 <Bike> http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/World_War_III lol
13:31:48 <Taneb> Only one of my ancestors fought in either world war
13:32:17 <Bike> a furious footchase
13:32:42 <Bike> With the copied module and still unknown to Vorshevsky, Russian forces were able to hack the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) system to give the illusion that an attack was happening on the West Coast, while concealing the real attack against the East Coast.
13:34:06 <kmc> Bike: that's what they get for using PHP
13:34:27 <Taneb> elliott, aren't you like 8 months younger than me?
13:35:03 <elliott> Taneb: dont fight the feelings
13:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, yes, you were conceived from dna extracted from the embryonic elliott
13:35:47 <Bike> Although the back-story of Star Trek contains numerous minor elements that did not occur in history, the Eugenics Wars marked a substantial deviation.
13:35:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that's...
13:36:10 <elliott> Bike: until it happens irl
13:36:34 <Bike> well the eugeincs wars ended in 1996
13:36:36 <Bike> Greg Cox's two-book series The Eugenics Wars: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh develops the idea of the Eugenics Wars in the context of real-life history by representing it as a secret history, and that the truth behind the various civil wars and conflicts in the 1990s was not generally known.
13:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, the memory alpha article on world war iii mentions that in one episode o'brien describes 21st-century earth history as "never that rough"
13:36:58 <Bike> only true 90s kids remember
13:37:30 <Bike> well i can't find the list, this sucks
13:37:38 <Bike> i bet the real wwiii is just iran-iraq or the congo
13:37:46 <Taneb> I think there will only ever be one nuclear war in history
13:37:48 <kmc> or the cold war
13:37:51 <Taneb> ...and it has already happend!
13:38:09 <Bike> maybe like, angola or something
13:38:14 <fizzie> Bike: It's an online encyclopedia everyone can edit, wink wink, nudge nudge.
13:38:21 <Bike> "a shitload of "minor" conflicts"
13:38:25 <kmc> cold war was real, we just outsourced all the actual fighting to the third world
13:38:30 <kmc> outsourced like everything else
13:39:04 <Bike> yeah but iran-iraq had trenches and gas
13:39:08 <Bike> way more world warry, imo
13:39:16 <kmc> poison gas in your ass
13:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> was the iran-iraq war caused by disagreements over who was stealing whose name
13:40:12 <fizzie> The Iran-Iraq-IRA war.
13:40:25 <Bike> they're from completely different roots phantom >:
13:41:02 <kmc> iran contrafunctor
13:42:00 <fizzie> Your search - "cobrafunctor" - did not match any documents.
13:42:08 <Taneb> "Iran" is actually a corruption of the earlier "Persia"
13:42:19 <Taneb> Which was a principality
13:42:38 <Taneb> They changed the name after the big war against Greece
13:43:07 <Bike> world war -vii
13:45:17 <elliott> Bike: they ended in 1996... new timeline
13:45:24 <elliott> which is actually 2036 our timeline
13:45:32 <elliott> turns out a couple decades didn't actually happen
13:45:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i just told you they didn't exist
13:48:03 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, there's a new bf derivative on the wiki but I can't be bothered to write a blog post about it, do you want to?
13:56:14 <FreeFull> Taneb: What if north korea actually has nukes
14:00:49 <kmc> do we think they don't?
14:00:58 <kmc> been faking all the tests?
14:02:24 <fizzie> kmc: They've outsourced the tests to the US.
14:04:44 <FreeFull> kmc: Well, this is the same country that claimed to have found a unicorn lair, and used photographs of some japanese thing as evidence that they have drones
14:05:46 <Bike> it's pretty hard to fake nuclear earthshaking.
14:06:14 <fizzie> Bike: You just wait for some natural earthshaking that's sufficiently similar, then announce it was your test. (Disclaimer: might not work; am not a geologist.)
14:06:47 <Bike> And don't believe every silly thing you hear about the DPRK. «According to website io9, the state-sponsored Korean Central News Agency making the announcement poorly translated the alleged findings. In Korean history, the name Kiringul (which the paper translated as "Unicorn Lair") is in fact a site associated with the founder of Koguryŏ, an ancient Korean kingdom.»
14:07:37 <Bike> not that that isn't silly, but states try to get ancient legitimacy like that all the time.
14:09:16 <FreeFull> Americas don't have any legitimacy ever since Europeans have ruined them
14:09:57 <Bike> could you rephrase readably
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14:45:34 <zzo38> kmc: Maybe if you read what I wrote about my extension of C, then you can know what I can think about C99 in general, too.
14:46:14 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtlxIcN_tAM this is hard to watch
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15:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> weren't the yields so puny you could have actually just done it with conventional explosions
15:20:40 <Bike> if you had 6 to 40 thousand tons of TNT
15:21:53 <Phantom_Hoover> and that wasn't with high explosives so would probably be seismically distinct
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15:36:11 <FreeFull> What would be scary would be North Korea having a nuclear missile with the yeld of Tsar Bomba
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16:14:15 <Taneb> elliott, you know ages ago you said "Taneb, play Brogue" or something so I started playing Brogue
16:14:26 <Taneb> Then a while later I had a succession of computer problems
16:14:55 <Taneb> Well, I am trying to reinstall Brogue
16:15:00 <Taneb> And having difficulty
16:18:59 <kmc> the first DPRK nuke test was in the conventional explosives range
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16:20:34 <mnoqy> hm i should play brogue again sometime. i was thinking about maybe playing brogue again earlier today too but then i forgot
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16:22:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> the first DPRK nuke test was in the conventional explosives range <- i heard it fizzled
16:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> despite being made with uranium which normally doesn't fizzle
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16:36:40 <Sgeo> "I work with a few companies that are disrupting the Enterprise SaaS space and are doing unheard of things with Haskell and Javascript. "
16:36:53 <Sgeo> Does anyone here have an idea of what those companies might be?
16:44:34 <kmc> service as a services
16:45:12 <olsner> Something as a Something
16:48:03 <Sgeo> Should I reply? I mean, it's not often some industry person goes and mentions Haskell
16:48:08 <Taneb> I wonder how hard it would be to write a 4D raytracer
16:52:49 <kmc> is this a recruiter or something
16:53:17 <kmc> a lot of jobs mention haskell and want you to know haskell but don't really use haskell much
16:53:48 <Phantom_Hoover> only difficulty i can think of is if you need to use cross products for some reason
16:53:59 <Taneb> How hard would it be to write a 1D raytracer
16:54:17 <kmc> my friend bought a turntable at swapfest and then some old guy talked at length about what jethro tull album he should listen to
16:54:21 <Taneb> Pretty easy, I imagine
16:54:25 <kmc> (the answer: thick as a brick, three times)
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16:54:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I know a bit of Haskell
16:56:00 <Sgeo> kmc, yeah, recruiter
16:56:18 <Sgeo> I'd still feel weird leaving a good job that I've only just gotten into, though
16:56:29 <Sgeo> Probably wouldn't look good in the future
16:57:09 <olsner> since recruiters are in the recruitment industry, they're not really "industry persons" in *our* industry
16:57:32 <Sgeo> I think I should at least wait until contract runs out and they either offer me or fail to offer me full employment before making such decisions
16:59:39 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah
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17:17:18 <Taneb> elliott, would you believe I have Brogue working
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17:25:06 <Sgeo> It wasn't working before?
17:25:13 <Sgeo> Also, are there online servers for Brogue yet?
17:28:58 <Sgeo> "At the You die... --MORE-- prompt, pressing i will reveal your inventory with all items fully identified.'
17:29:13 <Sgeo> Should really say (press i to see items) at the prompt or something
17:29:19 <Sgeo> Or do a NetHack DYWYPI?
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18:48:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, some things
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19:36:50 <myndzi> there's a 'roguelike radio'? o_O
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20:23:37 <shachaf> Taneb: when are you going to invent the esolang Main Page.?
20:24:07 <Taneb> shachaf, once I've written a tables tutorial and moved to California
20:24:46 <shachaf> Taneb: But imagine all the free publicity!
20:24:55 <HackEgo> Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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20:51:07 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
20:53:39 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130616-lago-di-como.flac was a while since the last piece of noises.
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20:56:12 <fizzie> (Technically speaking it should loop, but I suppose that's a bit meaningless.)
20:57:25 <nooodl> is this what finland sounds like
20:57:36 <fizzie> No, of course not, Lake Como is in Italy.
21:00:02 <HackEgo> \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ maze \ maze.c \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ test.hi \ Test.hi \ test.hs \ Test.hs \ test.o \ Test.o \ uk \ uk.1 \ wisdom
21:00:49 <fizzie> `run ls | head -n 1 | hexdump -C
21:00:51 <HackEgo> 00000000 e2 80 ae 0a |....| \ 00000004
21:01:25 <oerjan> what IS that... the entire logs after the `ls earlier today is on one backwards line in my browser...
21:01:40 <fizzie> Oh, it's one of the right-to-left control things.
21:02:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ` ': No such file or directory
21:02:38 <fizzie> U+202E RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE character.
21:02:57 <oerjan> but why on one line...
21:03:37 <fizzie> You may have to ask your browser that; I just get that single line the wrong way around.
21:03:44 <fizzie> (In codu logs, at least.)
21:04:33 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]).
21:04:36 <fizzie> (And "rm: cannot remove ` yrotcerid ro elif hcus oN :'" too.)
21:06:01 <oerjan> fizzie: well i'm normally using the .txt logs because the formatted ones have this hideously large font.
21:06:38 <oerjan> but i guess i can make an exception. and i just found out that i can change the font (i tried zooming earlier which breaks the formatting)
21:07:18 <oerjan> `run run ls | head -n 1 | xargs file
21:07:20 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found \ Usage: file [-bchikLNnprsvz0] [--apple] [--mime-encoding] [--mime-type] \ [-e testname] [-F separator] [-f namefile] [-m magicfiles] file ... \ file -C [-m magicfiles] \ file [--help]
21:07:28 <oerjan> `run ls | head -n 1 | xargs file
21:07:37 <oerjan> run HackEgo ... damn fizzie
21:07:49 <oerjan> `run ls | head -n 1 | xargs rm
21:07:59 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ maze \ maze.c \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ test.hi \ Test.hi \ test.hs \ Test.hs \ test.o \ Test.o \ uk \ uk.1 \ wisdom
21:08:51 <fizzie> "test \ Test \ testbot \ test.hi \ Test.hi \ test.hs \ Test.hs \ test.o \ Test.o" this is starting to look like my home directory.
21:09:06 <oerjan> may be time for another cleanup
21:09:14 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~$ ls | egrep '^..?$' | wc -l
21:10:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hacg time for another cleanup? (Okay, they're at least all in ~/tmp.)
21:10:59 -!- variable has joined.
21:11:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:13:00 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ maze \ maze.c \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz \ share \ src \ test \ testbot \ test.hi \ test.hs \ test.o \ uk \ uk.1 \ wisdom
21:13:26 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `testbot': Is a directory
21:13:49 -!- Frooxius has joined.
21:14:19 <oerjan> wtf is wrong with the repository browser
21:16:24 <oerjan> why is testbot not in the browser
21:16:47 <oerjan> ok an empty directory, they do that.
21:17:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access testbot: No such file or directory
21:17:18 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ maze \ maze.c \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ q \ quines \ quotes \ raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz \ share \ src \ uk \ uk.1 \ wisdom
21:18:01 <HackEgo> uk: ASCII English text, with very long lines, with no line terminators
21:18:30 <shachaf> imo file should recognize uk english vs us english vs #esoteric english etc hth
21:21:27 <fizzie> Does one recognize #esoteric english from its hthquency?
21:22:14 <shachaf> fizzie: no, that's oerjan english hth
21:22:32 <shachaf> I assume that everyone in Norway uses hth as much as oerja does, when they talk in English.
21:23:56 <oerjan> @tell Gregor when viewing a file, why doesn't the repository browser show the last edit to that file instead of the whole repository :(
21:24:19 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
21:24:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/blah
21:24:51 <oerjan> @tell Gregor oh i found a file log link. still unintuitive.
21:25:52 <oerjan> `rm raw.php?i=uwbmWGSz
21:26:52 <oerjan> oh wait that wasn't the contents listed, but the file type. probably not important anyway.
21:27:01 <HackEgo> q: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
21:27:42 <shachaf> oerjan: i demand a wisdom entry for dahl hth
21:28:08 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
21:28:19 <HackEgo> cat \ perl \ python \ ruby
21:29:27 <shachaf> oerjan: i demand an oerjan-authored wisdom entry for dahl hth
21:31:18 <shachaf> oerjan: you have no good reason to believe this sentence hth
21:31:32 <oerjan> of course i do it has hth in it hth
21:32:00 <shachaf> you can't believe everything you read............unless it has hth in it hth
21:32:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: maze: not found
21:32:52 <HackEgo> ╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╲╲╲╲╲╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱
21:33:05 <myndzi> ╺━━━┳━━━━━━━┳┳┳━━━━━┳┳━┳━━┳┳┳┳┳┳━━━┳━━┳┳┓
21:33:06 <myndzi> ┏━━╸┣━╸╺┳━━┳┛╹╹╻┏╸╻┏┛╹╺┫╺┳┫╹╹╹╹┗┓╺━┻╸╺┛╹┃
21:33:06 <myndzi> ┃╺┓╺┫╺━┳┫╺┳┛╺━┓┣┻┳┻┛╺━━┛╺┛╹╺┓╺━━┛╺━┳━┓╺┳┫
21:33:07 <myndzi> ┣━┫╺┛╺━┛╹╺┛╺━┳┻┛┏┻╸╺━━┓┏╸╺┓╻┃╻╺┓╻┏━┛╺┻┳┛┃
21:33:07 <myndzi> ┣╸╹╻╺┓╺┓╻┏╸╻╺┛╺┓┗╸╻╺━┓┃┣╸╺┻┻┻┻━┻┻┻╸╺━━┛╺┛
21:33:08 <myndzi> ┗━━┻━┻━┻┻┻━┻━━━┻━━┻━━┻┻┻━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━╸
21:33:22 <myndzi> the unicode isn't all screwy
21:33:31 <myndzi> don't install any fonts don't install any fonts don't install any fonts...
21:33:41 <myndzi> ╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱
21:33:42 <myndzi> ╲╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╲
21:33:42 <myndzi> ╲╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╲
21:33:43 <myndzi> ╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╱╲╲╲╱
21:33:43 <myndzi> ╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╱
21:33:44 <myndzi> ╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╲
21:33:44 <myndzi> ╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱
21:33:48 <myndzi> there we go, that's the one i was looking for
21:33:50 <myndzi> spacing's whack though
21:33:56 <myndzi> lol this font has kerning
21:34:05 <myndzi> fixed width symbols with kerning
21:34:26 <myndzi> ╺━━━━━━━┳━━━━┳┳━━━━━━━━━┳━━━━━┳━━━━━━┳━━┓
21:34:26 <myndzi> ┏━━━╸┏━╸┗━━┳╸╹┗┳━━╸╺━━┓╺┻━━━╸┏╋╸╺┳━╸╺┻━╸┃
21:34:26 <myndzi> ┣━━━━┻━━━━╸┗┳╸╺┻━╸┏━━━┻━━━━╸╺┛┗╸╺╋━╸╺━━┓┃
21:34:27 <myndzi> ┣╸╻┏╸╺┓┏━━━┓┗━╸╺┳━╋━┳━━━━━╸╺┳╸┏╸╺┫╻╻╺━━┫┃
21:34:27 <myndzi> ┣╸┣┻━━┻┻━╸╺┻━━╸┏┻╸╹╺┛┏━━━╸╻┏┛╺┻━┓┗┫┣╸╺┓┗┛
21:34:28 <myndzi> ┗━┻━━━━━━━━━━━━┻━━━━━┻━━━━┻┻━━━━┻━┻┻━━┻━╸
21:34:38 <myndzi> shachaf: probably half-bars
21:34:49 <myndzi> they weren't in the original line drawing set
21:34:50 <shachaf> Windows does font rendering in the kernel, so it's the only one to get kerning right.
21:35:15 <myndzi> sure, but the font specifies the metrics
21:35:29 <myndzi> this font apparently says "make that diagonal line close to other diagonal lines"
21:37:03 <oerjan> wait am i supposed to be viewing this with a non-fixed width font because I DON'T hth
21:37:31 <ion> You should fix your IRC, HTH, HAND
21:38:23 <myndzi> no, it is supposed to be fixed-width
21:38:35 <myndzi> i was observing that the zigzaggy one, on whatever font it's being rendered in, has kerning between //
21:38:39 <myndzi> and therefore doesn't line up
21:38:50 <oerjan> shachaf: your parsing is wacky hth
21:39:08 <shachaf> my parsing is wacky hope? what?
21:39:47 <shachaf> oerjan: did you know hth is banned from another channel i'm in
21:40:08 <oerjan> also it's your fault, right?
21:40:28 <shachaf> it's my fault because i overused it
21:40:50 <shachaf> hey you should stop by #haskell
21:41:49 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ etc \ factor \ hello \ hello.c \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ maze \ maze.c \ multiply.bf \ paste \ pref \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
21:42:41 <oerjan> `rum mv maze* hello* share
21:42:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rum: not found
21:42:48 <oerjan> `run mv maze* hello* share
21:43:22 <oerjan> i declare share to be the carpet to sweep things under that are too good to delete hth
21:44:03 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 4 Oct 14 2011 /bin/sh -> dash
21:44:19 <shachaf> `run echo 'sh -c "$1"' > bin/rum; chmod +x bin/run
21:44:23 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `bin/run': No such file or directory
21:44:26 <shachaf> `run echo 'sh -c "$1"' > bin/rum; chmod +x bin/rum
21:45:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.134
21:46:05 <Phantom_Hoover> 2008-04-22.txt:10:37:30: <fizzie> ITYM "olkoslept" HTH HAND.
21:46:22 <shachaf> 2008-06-23.txt:22:34:12: <oerjan> tusho: ITYM "IIRC FTW". HTH.
21:46:30 <nooodl> i love how fizzie invented hth
21:46:55 <shachaf> 2008-08-10.txt:12:32:43: <fizzie> Mostly used in the construction "ITYM 'foo' HTH HAND".
21:47:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17933
21:48:11 <shachaf> 2012-12-24.txt:00:04:47: <zzo38> oerjan: Who is evil hth?
21:48:11 <shachaf> 2012-12-24.txt:00:05:00: <oerjan> shachaf hth
21:48:49 -!- constant has quit (Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero).
21:49:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20843
21:49:29 <oerjan> i am increasingly getting the feeling that IE10 has broken _every_ detail of IE8's behavior that i've become accustomed to depend on. i cannot even change the starting point of an ^F search any more...
21:49:31 <shachaf> hmm should there be `zzo38logs
21:49:58 <shachaf> How do you pronounce that?
21:50:07 <shachaf> no i want juicy norwegian information
21:50:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
21:50:44 <oerjan> and if i change to a different browser it'll probably do things in a _different_ annoying way instead.
21:51:11 <shachaf> `run ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric
21:51:17 <nooodl> hmm is there a map of "where in the world is #esoteric" anywhere
21:51:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29749
21:51:30 <HackEgo> 2003-01-18-raw.txt \ 2003-01-18.txt \ 2003-01-19-raw.txt \ 2003-01-19.txt \ 2003-01-20-raw.txt \ 2003-01-20.txt \ 2003-01-21-raw.txt \ 2003-01-21.txt \ 2003-01-22-raw.txt \ 2003-01-22.txt \ 2003-01-23-raw.txt \ 2003-01-23.txt \ 2003-01-24-raw.txt \ 2003-01-24.txt \ 2003-01-25-raw.txt \ 2003-01-25.txt \ 2003-01-26-raw.txt \ 2003-01-26.txt \ 2003-01-
21:52:00 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: y'know, that's really the core of it
21:52:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelog
21:52:25 <shachaf> a piece of modern hth art hth
21:52:45 <nooodl> i almost wanna `learn hth is http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29749
21:52:51 <nooodl> but iirc it's good right now
21:52:56 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
21:53:54 <fizzie> A one-time bad is provocably secure.
21:54:32 <nooodl> ITYM "brovocably" HTH HAND
21:54:41 <shachaf> HEY EVERYONE REMEMBER https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Pix
21:56:08 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krlmGTQAfYw
21:58:21 <shachaf> wait a minute that's not the right version is it
21:58:44 <shachaf> maybe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TayProAkmBE
22:05:29 <ion> Remember when computer monitors had a builtin pinch effect?
22:06:25 <ion> TayProAkmBE
22:06:52 <oerjan> is that supposed to be an answer because i still have no clue
22:07:07 <ion> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TayProAkmBE
22:11:59 <fizzie> Remember when you could wave a magnet near a screen and it'd get all colorful and stuffs?
22:12:06 <fizzie> Then it'd get stuck that way.
22:12:50 <oerjan> ion: um where in that was the pinch effect twh
22:13:05 <fizzie> oerjan: In the MONITOR.
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22:13:55 <oerjan> oh you mean the overall picture shape?
22:15:02 <fizzie> I do remember CRTs having barrel distortion twiddles you could twaddle to hopefully make the image area a bit more rectangular.
22:15:10 <ion> fizzie: yeah
22:15:57 <fizzie> It's the thing that more or less fixed the thing you had done with the aforementioned magnet.
22:16:36 <shachaf> good old Carl Friedrich Degauss
22:17:02 <ion> John Barrel should never have implemented Barrel distortion in monitors, that sucked.
22:17:34 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:17:40 <nooodl> Decarl Defriedrich Degauss
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22:18:21 <shachaf> Do you have anything good for us today?
22:24:49 <nooodl> it's 00:24 am here! you've got all day
22:25:32 <Sgeo> The third book doesn't come out until September :(
22:25:42 <FreeFull> Some monitors automatically degaussed every time you turned them on
22:33:15 <oerjan> <Taneb> "Iran" is actually a corruption of the earlier "Persia" <-- um...
22:33:42 <ion> Best phone conversation in a feature film http://youtu.be/hroUeu4IvpE hth
22:34:34 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Is there a coesoteric? <-- is that the place where brainfuck derivatives are considered high art?
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22:37:14 <FreeFull> oerjan: And where adbmalbot operates
22:39:20 <oerjan> ion: is that indian english how she is spoken
22:44:02 <zzo38> I think I did manage to write the sequent calculus of sequent calculus.
22:44:32 <zzo38> (I think kmc or someone else on here suggested doing that?)
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23:23:23 <zzo38> You might even be able to combine the sequent calculus of sequent calculus with the other system which it is imitating, and make up the new system, which can then be combined with it again, etc
23:25:12 <zzo38> Now it knows itself. Well, kind of; it knows what it was before the sequent calculus of its own sequent calculus was added.
23:29:18 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Please be more specific!
23:30:45 <zzo38> It doesn't matter if it is expletive or explosive or whatever, if you want to ask a question such as "what ____" you should please be more specific?
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00:41:58 <kmc> "Dr. James M Peebles, M.D, M.A. Ph.D., and 91 years old, states whiskey is key to a long life, although he advises against eating meats."
00:42:19 <kmc> also <3 these line drawing characters
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00:44:03 <kmc> copumpkin: relative of yours?
00:44:21 <copumpkin> maybe, but I haven't heard of him :)
00:44:27 <copumpkin> my grandfather is 100 and has whiskey everyday
00:44:49 <shachaf> isn't it kind of whisky to do that at his age
00:46:16 <kmc> also this was from @CenturyAgoToday so I guess he's 191 years old now?
00:46:58 <shachaf> kmc: how often do you have whiskey
00:47:17 <copumpkin> that guy has too many degrees, anyway
00:47:29 <shachaf> Record heat wave in the Midwest leads to five deaths in Chicago as temperatures reach near 100 Fahrenheit (38 C).
00:47:32 <shachaf> speaking of too many degrees
00:48:11 <kmc> shachaf: not v. often
00:48:24 <kmc> i bought a bottle of whiskey a while back and finished it and haven't purchased another
00:48:33 <kmc> right now drinking Stone Smoked Porter
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00:50:41 <shachaf> copumpkin should write us a sonnet
00:50:59 <shachaf> and/or read that that story
00:51:19 <kmc> sing us a song you're the copumpkin
00:51:33 <shachaf> and/or figure out how to make monad transformers work with negative-position things
00:51:58 <kmc> did you try comonad cotransformers
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00:53:00 <shachaf> hey what do you think of class Functor m => Monad m where monad :: Free m a -> m a
00:54:24 <kmc> data Free = ... ?
00:54:50 <shachaf> data Free f a = Pure a | Free (f (Free f a))
00:55:15 <shachaf> it's a free monad "like a free monoid except in the category of endofunctors hth"
00:55:35 <shachaf> In fact you can compare this with class Monoid m where mconcat :: [m] -> m
00:56:40 <kmc> good times
00:56:47 <shachaf> Free is a "p. fun type imo" imo hth
00:57:13 <kmc> we may be overdoing it with the "#esoteric house style"
00:58:27 <shachaf> Soon all conversation will be encoded in strings of quotes, imo, hth
00:59:11 <shachaf> kmc: "did you see http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/operational-monad.html btw"
01:08:14 <shachaf> Oh, so Program f = Free (CoYoneda f)
01:08:24 <shachaf> Which I think edwardk said somewhere.
01:08:33 <zzo38> I have also said Free (CoYoneda f)
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01:08:58 <zzo38> So I know what Free (CoYoneda f) is.
01:10:04 <zzo38> It is, if f is a GADT, the monad can have an operation which calls one of the constructor of a GADT like a command that returns a result, kind of.
01:10:12 <zzo38> I might not have explained it very well.
01:10:35 <shachaf> Well, f ought to be a Functor, oughtn't it?
01:10:37 <kmc> that does sound similar to 'operational'
01:11:07 <zzo38> shachaf: No. (CoYoneda f) is a Functor even if f isn't. (If f is a functor, then CoYoneda f = f)
01:11:32 <zzo38> Example: data F :: * -> * where { GetChar :: F Char; PutChar :: Char -> F (); };
01:12:08 <shachaf> Right. But then it's not the same as Free F.
01:12:41 <zzo38> Correct. However, then Free F isn't a monad since this F cannot be a functor.
01:12:54 <zzo38> But, Free (CoYoneda F) is a monad since (CoYoneda F) is a functor.
01:13:54 <shachaf> copumpkin: So doing a DList-style thing on Kleisli composition gives you something which behaves a lot like Codensity.
01:14:15 <shachaf> Can you get Codensity Monad instance out of it?
01:16:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What about Free (Yoneda f)?
01:16:51 <shachaf> Or maybe Cofree (Yoneda f) or something?
01:17:20 <zzo38> I don't know if that makes anything of any use.
01:29:47 <kmc> edward snowdenhands
01:31:36 <shachaf> Is there any place where Yoneda is better than CoYoneda?
01:32:10 <zzo38> Maybe in some cases; each is capable of different things. However, I do not think of a specific example at thist ime.
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01:52:34 <kmc> you're a quick one
01:52:56 <kmc> it's a true story tho
01:53:46 <shachaf> i saw a freight train on the caltrain tracks and it was good
01:54:27 <shachaf> zzo38: What are some cofree things other than cofree comonads?
01:54:42 <kmc> did it whoosh by
01:55:03 <shachaf> are you talking about your joke or the train
01:55:18 <shachaf> the train leisurelily whooshed by
01:55:56 <shachaf> consider the leisurelilies
01:56:16 <kmc> shachaf: have you read _Player Piano_ by vonnegut?
01:56:30 <kmc> today i was told to read it
01:56:33 <kmc> seems like a p. good idea
01:56:51 <shachaf> i have a bunch of kurt vonnebooks to read "but not that one"
01:56:59 <shachaf> maybe i should read that one
01:57:22 <shachaf> another one that i don't have:::: _The Sirens of Titan_
01:58:50 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grand_Junction_from_Mass_Ave.JPG there is a nuclear reactor in this photo
01:58:56 <kmc> don't you think that should be mentioned in the description
01:59:24 <kmc> the unassuming blue dome w/ the smokestack
01:59:33 <kmc> one of the last remaining HEU research reactors in the country
01:59:34 <copumpkin> I guess that was a stupid question
01:59:37 <shachaf> hmm can i have a nuclear reactor
01:59:51 <copumpkin> shachaf cannot be entrusted with one
02:02:49 <kmc> you can have one
02:05:37 <copumpkin> Imma see if I can light things on fire with it
02:06:05 <zzo38> I put the sequent calculus of sequent calculus into the computer, now.
02:06:23 <zzo38> Can you please check the sequent calculus of Turing machine to see if I have made any mistakes in it?
02:06:51 <zzo38> A proof is actually related to a halting problem!
02:07:03 <zzo38> Now I can understand why!
02:07:22 <kmc> zzo38.gödel.moed++
02:07:54 <shachaf> kmc: p. sure gödel didn't prove things equivalent to the halting problem hth
02:08:07 <kmc> close enuf
02:12:55 <kmc> send pocky
02:13:39 <zzo38> It is provable if and only if it halts.
02:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i'm spoiled for intelligent criticism after finding that sci-fi blog the other day
02:18:02 <zzo38> I am unable to make the sequent calculus of nim game. (I tried, but it doesn't work properly.) Do you know how to do this?
02:18:48 <zzo38> However, I can do the subtraction game (which is related to the nim game).
02:21:15 <Phantom_Hoover> lesson of the day: nobody can be bothered to do intelligent long-form critiques of homestuck
02:21:41 <zzo38> Can you use shorthand?
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02:22:20 <shachaf> my hands are the same length
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02:34:17 <shachaf> what if growing a mustache is a defense against people drawing mustaches on pictures of you
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03:58:20 <shachaf> Maybe Cofree (Yoneda f) is useful.
03:58:25 <shachaf> data Coop f a = a :< (forall b. (Coop f a -> b) -> f b)
04:00:22 <shachaf> instance Functor (Coop f) where fmap f (x :< k) = f x :< (. (. fmap f)) k
04:00:36 <shachaf> instance Comonad (Coop f) where { extract (x :< _) = x; duplicate w@(_ :< k) = w :< (. (. duplicate)) k }
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04:22:32 <kmc> The Beer, Burritos, and Bonghits Diet
04:28:07 <kmc> photo of me in a lab coat on the cover of the book
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04:51:10 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:51:23 <shachaf> `run >'indexed monad' echo 'Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.'
04:51:40 <shachaf> Didn't that thing do antipluralization?
04:51:46 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
04:51:49 <Bike> `? indexed monad
04:52:02 <shachaf> `run mv 'indexed monad' wisdom/
04:52:08 <HackEgo> Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
04:52:28 <shachaf> 21:51 <dolio> The other meaning is monad on an indexed category.
04:52:53 <Bike> not worth listening to, clearly
04:53:01 <shachaf> `run echo 'Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category' >> wisdom/'indexed monad'
04:53:07 <HackEgo> Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors. \ Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category
04:55:01 <Bike> TCS 110: Object-oriented Programming for Artists
04:55:03 <Bike> Introduction to object-oriented programming for artists. Focus on understanding the metaphors and potential of object-oriented programming for sound, video, performance, and interactive installations.
05:03:16 <shachaf> kmc: oh man #haskell is so great right now
05:03:36 <shachaf> there's this one person who regularly tells beginners that Applicative and Monad instances should disagree
05:03:44 <shachaf> now everything is an argument about that
05:05:22 <kmc> and praytell what are the ops doing about this
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05:05:55 <kmc> i was promised an iron fist
05:06:07 <shachaf> if you join #haskell you can have a temporary iron fist
05:06:15 <shachaf> but only if you use it well
05:06:24 <Bike> it's more like a few dozen iron fists, tied to one another
05:06:26 <shachaf> I don't think this person is actually malicious, though I don't know.
05:06:28 <kmc> i'm drunk so, no
05:06:33 <kmc> 'malicious' is not really the standard
05:07:05 <shachaf> Whatever the standard is it should be extensional, with the goal of making the channel a pleasant place.
05:07:47 <shachaf> But malice is an easy heuristicthing.
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06:48:26 <shachaf> Hmm, so the decision of whether to use i or -i is like the decision of which way the rows and columns go in a matrix.
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06:50:16 <Taneb> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
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10:56:44 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
10:57:31 <Taneb> Sgeo, can you start tagging the `slist with something to sort of describe the update without being too spoilery so I can see if I've already read it?
10:57:38 <shachaf> no, Sgeo, stop making slist updates and start making olist updates
10:57:48 <shachaf> 22:26 < theresa> [A6A6I1] ====> (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=008191)
10:57:51 <shachaf> 22:26 < theresa> new: 247 pesterlines (ROXY: 86); 5 images; 5 pages
10:57:53 <shachaf> why don't you get a bot like that in here
10:59:18 <shachaf> (i wish.......................................)
10:59:33 <mnoqy> (maybe it's off hiatus.....................................)
11:00:05 <shachaf> remember atrus?????????????????????
11:00:20 <shachaf> and myst and the other ones
11:02:23 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it is off hiatus
11:02:36 <shachaf> Sgeo...................................... . . . . . . . . . . . .
11:02:41 <Sgeo> "Edit: Megapause over. Snipped everything except the awesome HTML table below because of how sweet it is. "
11:02:50 <Taneb> Yeah, this is the fourth update since the hiatus
11:03:41 <shachaf> mnoqy: ok what book on linear algebra should i read
11:04:05 <Taneb> The Stainless Steel Rat by Harry Harrison
11:04:53 <Taneb> Totally about linear algebra
11:04:59 <Taneb> Not at all about rats
11:05:05 <shachaf> mnoqy: well i just ordered one
11:05:09 <shachaf> so i hope you name that one
11:05:27 <Taneb> Actually, Stainless Steel Rat is less about rats than Of Mice and Men is about mice
11:05:37 <shachaf> someone described it as being unspoilt by applications
11:05:46 <mnoqy> yes that does sound good
11:06:57 <mnoqy> iv never really had a linear algebra book . . . iv had a linear algebra course and there was sort of a book there but the course went a lot more in depth than the book and most of the exercises werent from the book [they were more interesting than the book exercises]
11:07:54 <mnoqy> anyway whats the book you got
11:08:35 <mnoqy> how am i supposed to answer that because im not going to
11:08:44 <Taneb> A course is a course, of course, of course
11:09:26 <mnoqy> it was good though...unspoilt by applications
11:09:31 <shachaf> well you could start with your social security number and just go from there
11:09:56 <mnoqy> well the book wasnt really used much at all
11:10:03 <mnoqy> so what does it matter...
11:10:13 <Taneb> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
11:10:20 <shachaf> was the book spoilt by applications
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11:10:26 <mnoqy> i forget but i dont think so
11:10:35 <Taneb> Was it "Latin Beyond GCSE"
11:11:05 <mnoqy> it was writing latin
11:11:25 <Taneb> shachaf, was yours Writing Latin?
11:11:33 <shachaf> mnoqy: was it "really" writing latin or are you just trying to get Taneb off your case
11:11:41 <mnoqy> shachaf: you got me...
11:11:59 <shachaf> you're so transparent, mnoqy
11:12:06 <shachaf> Taneb: maybe..........................yes(no)
11:12:33 <Taneb> I am going to do a linear algebra exam now
11:12:51 <Taneb> I hope predicative datives come up
11:12:56 <Taneb> I like predicative datives
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11:13:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: so what's with all the moustaches on super mega lately
11:14:07 <mnoqy> you mean the most recent super mega??
11:14:14 <mnoqy> yeah that has a moustache in it
11:15:55 <shachaf> mnoqy: whoa dude are linear transformations like concatenative languages
11:17:42 <shachaf> mnoqy: i actually meant the way "composition" and "application" are kind of similar......
11:18:38 <shachaf> dude it's totally a good sense maker
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11:58:33 <elliott> 01:58:50: <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grand_Junction_from_Mass_Ave.JPG there is a nuclear reactor in this photo
11:58:36 <elliott> 01:58:56: <kmc> don't you think that should be mentioned in the description
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17:44:03 <kmc> elliott: it is now
17:54:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/DdEe4Aai take a wild guess
17:55:31 <fizzie> I'm thinking kmc's middle name.
17:58:02 <elliott> kmc: did you generate that account name so people can't find out your wikipedia secrets
17:58:29 <elliott> wow [[fork bomb]] has managed to not grow 5000 examples since i deleted 90% of them
17:58:41 <elliott> Revision as of 05:56, 29 May 2013 (edit)
17:58:41 <elliott> (Only 1 DOS example is needed.)
17:58:45 <elliott> Latest revision as of 01:39, 2 June 2013 (edit) (undo)
17:58:46 <elliott> (Undid revision 557293529 -- This is needed for context and removing it as content is deletionism at its finest.)
17:59:07 <Fiora> elliott: did it have a "fork bombs in popular culture" section?
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17:59:33 <elliott> Fiora: with the obscurity of some of the languages people added fork bombs in, it practically qualified as one :P
17:59:39 <elliott> fork bombs in unpopular culture
17:59:44 <fizzie> "Fork bombs and their relation to knife bombs" section.
18:00:54 <Fiora> it's the weirdest, most jarring thing when I'm like reading a wikipedia article on some topic like, I don't know, "solid state disk", and then at the bottom there's like "in episode 57.45 of the big bang theory, some character made a joke about a solid state disk"
18:02:13 <fizzie> It doesn't say that in [[Solid-state drive]].
18:02:23 <Fiora> I-I was just giving a hypothetical example!
18:02:45 <kmc> if big bang theory gets to 57 seasons then we are truly doomed
18:02:57 <kmc> also there should be a show Big Band Theory
18:02:59 <fizzie> Oh, I thought that was just a fractional episode number.
18:03:21 <kmc> well there is such a band
18:11:12 <fizzie> "This is Jackie from ECO Energy Engineering company, a leading LED Lighting manufacturer in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">China</st1:country-region></st1:place>." This spam is semantic!
18:12:11 <fizzie> (It can reach fabulous brightness at low watt.)
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21:47:49 <`^_^v> that feel when a senior dev submits a O(n^3) solution to a O(n) problem
21:47:55 <`^_^v> good thing for code review
21:48:47 <Taneb> Who are you and how do you pronounce your nick
21:49:46 <`^_^v> some things are not meant to be pronounced
21:50:05 <zzo38> OK, where does your *username* come from?
21:50:13 <`^_^v> it comes from a smiley face, duh
21:50:25 <zzo38> No, I mean the username, not the nickname.
21:52:58 <kmc> dont scare :(
21:56:12 <shachaf> kmc as well as other people
21:56:32 <zzo38> That isn't everyone, though.
21:58:59 <olsner> the O(n^3) solution probably makes the real problem fairly well obfuscated, must be great for "Job Security"
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21:59:26 <shachaf> twist: every O(n) solution is an O(n^3) solution
21:59:33 <olsner> the more work you do overall, the more places to hide useful work
22:00:34 <kmc> zzo38 counts
22:00:36 <kmc> he counted to 38 at least
22:02:03 <FreeFull> A O(n^3) solution might be better than O(n) if the difference in constant factors is big enough, and n is small enough
22:02:36 <Taneb> But when is n ever small
22:02:48 <Taneb> n is getting bigger every day, FreeFull
22:02:52 <Taneb> Moore's law and that
22:02:55 <shachaf> let n be, like, a really big number
22:04:02 <Taneb> Like 17 or something
22:06:29 <ion> let n be the biggest number
22:06:50 <Taneb> ion, as I said, 17
22:08:07 <FreeFull> Constant factors can be pretty big
22:08:53 <ion> Not as big as 17, though.
22:15:37 <zzo38> Doesn't n mean the amount of data to process or something like that?
22:26:00 <olsner> yes, but we don't seem to agree on exactly how much data that is
22:27:12 <zzo38> Well, if we don't know what the problem is, how can we know how much data that is?
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22:27:35 <ion> I thought we agreed on 17.
22:29:38 <elliott> I like how lambdabot was using 6% CPU for a second
22:29:52 <elliott> wow, lambdabot uses a lot of CPU in general
22:30:22 <nooodl> do you regret your purchase
22:30:35 <Fiora> elliott: maybe it stores karma as a unary coe?
22:31:01 <fizzie> fungot: How much CPU does your sentience matrix use?
22:31:01 <fungot> fizzie: think cps in common lisp.
22:31:04 <elliott> Fiora: you know, given the quality of some of lambdabot's code I wouldn't rule it out
22:31:14 <fizzie> fungot: So... not much, then?
22:31:15 <fungot> fizzie: i said that you suggested a different implementation strategy for heap synchronization ( namely optimistic concurrency)
22:31:35 <fizzie> It's beyond human ken, I think.
22:32:25 <Fiora> elliott: or maybe like. it queries every single command ever sent in order to count up the karma
22:32:30 <Fiora> and instead of storing karma it stores a chatlog
22:32:35 <Fiora> so it's O(number of messages logged)
22:32:43 * Fiora can't imagine something much worse? XD
22:33:16 <elliott> Fiora: i wanted a bot that determined karma by determining all the times anyone's ever mentioned your name and then using some kind of modified spam filter to classify the references as positive or negative
22:33:39 <fizzie> (Apparently the current iteration of fungot has, in the last six days, used 16 seconds of CPU time. If I read ps right.)
22:33:40 <fungot> fizzie: to use the utf8 egg.
22:34:09 <fizzie> Or is that 16 minutes? I don't know what the unit of that column is.
22:34:25 <elliott> 16 minutes seems like an awful lot for fungot
22:34:25 <fungot> elliott: that was absurdly involved. that's true.
22:35:06 <Fiora> elliott: I remember doing sentiment analysis in AI class; it was amazing how inaccurate it was
22:36:01 <fizzie> I remember the bits about semantics in a NLP class. They were all so crude.
22:36:10 <ion> My Little Pony class
22:37:00 <Fiora> MLP analysis sounds a lot easier; you could probably identify most ponies by their color scheme.
22:37:21 <fizzie> It's all pony-invariant descriptors and whatnot.
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22:42:18 <fizzie> Huh, SURF features are patented too? I was thinking (i.e., hoping) SIFT was the exception rather than the rule.
22:42:35 <ion> Everything is patented.
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22:55:15 <shachaf> higgledy-piggledy / bifunctoriality
22:57:38 <olsner> I don't run any IRC bots but X seems to use about 33 minutes per day here
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23:00:43 <shachaf> kmc: good story about the money machine
23:01:57 <kmc> i thought so
23:02:05 <kmc> http://www.thoughtcrime.org/stories/money-machine/
23:09:46 <Fiora> those things seem designed basically just to embarrass the person inside of them :/
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23:16:44 <kmc> our school had us sell magazines and wrapping paper and whatever, but the funds went specifically towards a class trip
23:16:51 <kmc> i'm sure the company took a nice cut, though
23:17:32 <elliott> is this some... americant hing
23:17:37 <elliott> i have no recollection of anything like this happening to me
23:17:43 <elliott> it sounds incredibly american at least
23:17:46 <kmc> most likely yes
23:18:09 <shachaf> i have no such recollection either
23:19:02 <fizzie> We sold toilet paper to fund class trips in grades 1-6.
23:19:28 <kmc> i assume your prices were not competitive with wal-mart
23:20:04 <fizzie> Counting delivery from the nearest wal-mart, perhaps.
23:20:21 <fizzie> They were reasonably large units.
23:20:33 <fizzie> Like, maybe in bunches of 40 rolls?
23:20:50 <fizzie> So perhaps the pricing was reasonably competitive.
23:21:38 <fizzie> Also there's a magazine full of stories and stuff written by school kids, that I think we also sold.
23:22:08 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kev%C3%A4tp%C3%B6rri%C3%A4inen
23:22:54 <fizzie> Anyway, you got some tiny rewards for selling that thing.
23:23:43 <fizzie> We never had a money machine, though.
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00:38:36 <tswett> So I'm no longer totally convinced that every Turing machine either halts or does not halt.
00:38:44 <tswett> Maybe Goldbach's conjecture doesn't have a truth value.
00:40:03 <kmc> well definitely there is a TM where ZFC can't prove it halts or doesn't, unless ZFC is inconsistent
00:40:24 <zzo38> It seems to me that a Turing machine must either halts or does not halt (maybe I am wrong); I made a sequent calculus of Turing machine so it halts if and only if it is provable, I think (unless I made a mistake).
00:40:50 <kmc> and likewise for whatever other formal logic you want to use to talk about turing machines
00:40:58 <tswett> All the cool kids work in linear logic with no axioms.
00:41:11 <shachaf> i would use that axiom system
00:41:29 <zzo38> Different kind of logic are useful for different things.
00:41:35 <tswett> Suddenly I feel like there's a topology here.
00:43:22 <tswett> The singleton set {X} is closed if and only if ZFC proves that X halts or that X does not halt.
00:43:52 <zzo38> So is that how it works?
00:44:09 <tswett> Well, I certainly haven't defined the entire topology yet.
00:44:10 <kmc> well boolean algebras have Stone spaces
00:44:26 <kmc> and this relates logic and topology somehow
00:44:38 <kmc> too bad i know only a little logic and no topology
00:44:49 <zzo38> It is possible to prove that a Turing machine halts if and only if it does halt, but this isn't the case with not halting.
00:45:21 <zzo38> Is there linear logic with no axioms?
00:45:26 <tswett> You're saying that "for all Turing machines X, X does not halt if and only if X does not halt" is not provable?
00:45:33 <tswett> I should say "linear logic with no additional axioms".
00:46:08 <tswett> "In mathematics, Stone's representation theorem for Boolean algebras states that every Boolean algebra is isomorphic to a field of sets." No shit?
00:46:15 <zzo38> tswett: No, I am just saying that it isn't necessarily provable if it doesn't halt. Sometimes it may be.
00:46:37 <Sgeo> tswett, have you seen the pidgeonhole principle?
00:47:12 <shachaf> zzo38: In Potion of Confusing, the message says "All of the objects (except one) are what they seem; there are no secret objects or fake wall or anything like that."
00:47:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Shouldn't that say "fake walls"?
00:47:59 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose that would work too.
00:48:38 <zzo38> Note that "what they seem" is according to MegaZeux; if you don't know much about MegaZeux then this message probably won't help much. (MegaZeux is open source though, so that might help a bit.)
00:48:48 <shachaf> zzo38: I think "fake wall" is iggrammatical.
00:55:06 <zzo38> I don't intend to fix it right now (although you can fix it if you want to).
00:55:38 <kmc> 'patches welcome'
00:56:31 <shachaf> kmc: I like the thing where someone asks for help with their program and someone suggests a bunch of ways to improve it and they respond with "patches welcome".
00:56:53 <zzo38> Maybe I might fix it later, though.
00:57:02 <zzo38> Such as, when I continue to work on that game and add more levels.
00:57:17 <shachaf> e.g. http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1gdh5u/help_tracking_down_a_possible_memory_leak_in/
00:58:02 <shachaf> kmc: should i give up on the punctuation for "eg, ie, etc", etc.
00:58:02 <elliott> that's just... that specific person
00:58:04 <kmc> "you should use DevURandom instead of DevRandom, unless you want to wait a long time for cryptographically secure genetic results"
00:58:19 <kmc> really questionable that /dev/random should exist
00:58:57 <kmc> in typical configurations urandom is *cryptographically* unpredictable
00:59:01 <Fiora> it works differently on different OSs, doesn't it? like I remember reading that BSD's "random" was actually a PRNG seeded by a guaranteed-safe amount of entropy
00:59:02 <kmc> it's not information-theoretically unpredictable
00:59:13 <shachaf> kmc: where else will i dump my spare entropy hth
01:00:11 <elliott> kmc: i think i heard that /dev/urandom is even better than /dev/random for cryptography for reasons other than speed
01:00:14 <elliott> but i didn't understand the reasons
01:00:22 <kmc> all you need is like 256 bits of entropy at startup and you can generate cryptographically secure random numbers indefinitely
01:00:38 <kmc> for basically the same reason that you can encrypt arbitrarily long things with AES using a 256 bit key
01:00:42 <kmc> except that's probably not /really/ true
01:01:18 <kmc> and i mean 'indefinitely' in a practical sense
01:01:26 <shachaf> can you use aes in ctr mode as a good rng
01:01:34 <kmc> i should think so
01:01:43 <kmc> otherwise it's not a v. good stream cipher
01:01:49 <kmc> but i might be missing something
01:02:05 <kmc> Linux urandom uses some cryptographic hashing instead
01:02:06 <Fiora> isn't it typically, like N bits of PRNG seed gets you ~2^N bits of output?
01:02:11 <Fiora> well, like, safe output
01:03:13 <kmc> non-cryptographic PRNGs like Mersenne Twister or MWC256 have a much larger internal state, but I think that's because they need to be fast and can't do much mixing on each output
01:03:28 <kmc> in fact MT has a more expensive step that happens each n words where n words is also the state size
01:04:22 <shachaf> Is there a reason to use a non-cryptographic PRNG except in special cases?
01:04:29 <kmc> speeeeeeeeeeeeed
01:04:40 <kmc> needing a bunch of random numbers quickly isn't that special of a case, to me
01:04:46 <elliott> does anyone happen to use zsh
01:05:01 <kmc> but I do think that language builtin RNGs should err on the side of cryptographic strength
01:05:12 <shachaf> By "special" I meant "non-default".
01:05:28 <shachaf> And my question was really mostly about speed. Are cryptographic PRNGs that much slower?
01:05:39 <Fiora> of course now we have like, RDRAND, soooo
01:05:54 <Fiora> "On a i5-3210M (2.5GHz) Ivybridge (2 cores, 4 threads) I get a peak of ~99.6 million 64 bit rdrands per second with 4 threads which equates to ~6.374 billion bits per second. Not bad at all." wow
01:06:06 <zzo38> Well, I used ARCFOUR in Famicom Hangman, which works fine, even though that is a very slow computer!
01:06:21 <kmc> I like that Python has random.SystemRandom() which is an object with the same API as the random module itself, and using urandom
01:06:26 <kmc> but it would be even better if they were swapped
01:06:36 <kmc> zzo38: did you drop the first several thousand outputs?
01:06:51 <Fiora> I wonder if that will finally get rid of the /dev/random seeding problem.
01:06:56 <zzo38> kmc: It will automatically do that if you don't put the space bar immediately as soon as you turn it on.
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01:07:53 * kmc makes plans to cheat at Famicom Hangman using RC4 biases
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01:12:50 <zzo38> You could probably do in an emulator since you can step each frame, to make a TAS, I suppose. However, the microphone and the initial contents of RAM are used for additional entropy if available. On the title screen (and after you win and lose), it generates (and discards) at least a thousand random numbers per frame. During the game, it generates and discards one per frame.
01:16:33 <kmc> shachaf: of course, anything that makes default functionality slower will be bad for marketing your language
01:17:19 <kmc> even if there's a fast RNG function, microbenchmark writers won't find it, or they'll complain about how unintuitive it is
01:17:39 <kmc> whereas approximately nobody is microbenchmarking languages on the basis of 'how easy is it to write broken crypto in this language'
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01:18:49 <kmc> i wonder if GHC could support lazy unboxed arrays. keep a bitmap saying whether each element is a thunk or not
01:19:35 <shachaf> Unboxed arrays of machine-word-sized elements?
01:19:40 <kmc> it would be cool to have a language where String is some kind of awesomely efficient rope structure but still has the lazy char-at-a-time semantics
01:19:42 <tswett> Sgeo: yeah, I've seen the pigeonhole principle many times.
01:19:48 <kmc> shachaf: they have to be at least that big, but they could be bigger
01:20:38 <kmc> (and of course you can hide that and just pad out things smaller than a machine word)
01:21:15 <kmc> i wonder if one should put the bits at the beginning of the array, or have cache line sized chunks each with their own bitmap, or what
01:22:36 <kmc> and if you had an unboxed array of Word32 on a 64-bit machine then you wouldn't need a separate bitmap at all
01:22:57 <kmc> you could put the Word32 in the upper half of the machine word, and tag the low bit
01:23:42 <shachaf> You could do that with any Word32, not just an array...
01:23:49 <elliott> kmc: I like how Haskell's "better string structure" is just an array. :(
01:23:52 <shachaf> putting the tags back in the etc.
01:23:58 <Fiora> kmc: speaking of like nonintuitiveness or whatever, I don't know if you're interested or anything but the way rdrand works is kind of interesting
01:24:50 <kmc> Fiora: I have a vague understanding. it's based on drift between two oscillators, then a conditioner, then an internal PRNG?
01:25:10 <kmc> they do this to avoid having analog components, which need to be redesigned on each die shrink
01:25:21 <Fiora> I meant, like, the UI? basically like, you use the instruction and then it sets a flag if it succeeded, otherwise you can retry
01:25:30 <kmc> yeah interesting
01:25:31 <Fiora> since the bandwidth is limited (100 million calls per second or so?) across cores
01:25:35 <kmc> i bet people get that wrong too
01:25:41 <Fiora> but yeah, the internals are really really cool
01:25:51 <Fiora> like, a *digital* random noise generator
01:26:09 <kmc> also I think in a dream last night I wondered whether the amount of entropy in /dev/random would form an exploitable side channel in some circumstances
01:26:31 <Fiora> would there be a way to derive that information externally?
01:26:46 <kmc> any user program can read /dev/random and see when it blocks
01:26:56 <kmc> which tells you about how much /dev/randoming other processes have been doing
01:27:15 <HackEgo> 150) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 233) <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. \ 243) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but P
01:27:41 <shachaf> kmc: Linux has /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail
01:27:45 <Fiora> I wonder if that could be used as a timing attack, because you could use it to know when other processes are asking for entropy
01:27:51 <kmc> haha nice shachaf
01:27:54 <Fiora> so you could use it to find out when some process is doing some particular thing?
01:27:55 <kmc> Fiora: hm, yeah that too
01:28:10 <Fiora> but I guess if you're on the same box you could already do like a cache timing attack
01:28:44 <kmc> shachaf: mine seems to clim up to 190 and then drop to 128
01:28:47 <kmc> over and over
01:28:54 <kmc> is that because it's feeding some of that entropy into urandom?
01:29:05 <shachaf> It goes down to ~3 when you cat /dev/random
01:29:41 <ion> My entropy availability goes up to eleven.
01:29:45 <elliott> it's because observing the entropy makes it less random clearly
01:30:25 <shachaf> The file read_wakeup_threshold contains the number of bits of entropy required for waking up processes that sleep waiting for entropy from /dev/random. The default is 64. The file write_wakeup_threshold con‐ tains the number of bits of entropy below which we wake up processes that do a select(2) or poll(2) for write access to /dev/random. These values can be changed by writing to the files.
01:32:44 <ion> The value of entropy_avail could be used as a source of entropy.
01:33:02 <shachaf> ion..........................no...........
01:33:57 <ion> shachaf: YOU DON’T SAY?
01:36:36 <shachaf> kmc: speaking of keyboards do you think you could make a keylogger based on microphone input of someone typing
01:36:51 <kmc> yes i've heard of that
01:37:15 <shachaf> i mean make a flash game or something that secretly logs your passwords
01:38:29 <kmc> HTML5 Microphone API
01:38:42 <ion> HTML5 Keylogging API
01:39:09 <kmc> also HTML5 lets you play and record audio but it has no way to isolate audio from different origins in the acoustic surroundings of the computer!
01:41:51 <zzo38> They are full of dumb things
01:42:12 <shachaf> is CoYoneda a design pattern
01:42:56 <shachaf> i should make a book of design patterns which gradually turns into a maths book
01:43:23 <zzo38> I really think the client should be programmed not to send all keys to the webpage. Someone once at FreeGeek once wanted to use a webpage to test the keyboard, and some keys interfere; I suggested instead to use the program included in Linux for this purpose, which result in not interfering with anything!
01:44:45 <zzo38> (It should also report the size of the document area as the screen resolution, instead of the actual screen resolution, and if a script resizes a window to a specific size, to make it larger than that so that the document area will be of the specified size instead.)
01:45:34 <shachaf> zzo38: you should make a twitter account
01:45:53 <zzo38> I don't want to make a Twitter account; I have no need for such a thing.
01:46:01 <kmc> i should make a book of design patterns which gradually turns into a snake
01:46:18 <shachaf> No one has a *need* for it.
01:46:46 <zzo38> I can just use IRC or whatever.
01:47:00 <shachaf> How can I follow you on IRC?
01:47:23 <zzo38> Use the IRC log file, is one way.
02:12:15 <Sgeo> http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/snuznluz.shtml
02:13:12 <Sgeo> o.O it's an April Fools joke
02:13:51 <elliott> https://www.beeminder.com is sort of the same thing.
02:15:21 <Sgeo> Laughing while describing your service does not seem like the best idea ever
02:15:48 <shachaf> what if your service is jokeserver
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02:45:42 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:45:48 <shachaf> Sgeo...............olist...........
02:46:07 <Sgeo> shachaf, I can do an `olist but it would be a lie
02:46:07 <shachaf> you're updating the wrong comic
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03:20:38 <lambdabot> Plugin `karma' failed with: <<timeout>>
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03:32:41 <elliott> fizzie: the freenode servers list lies about IPv6. :(
03:45:28 <Sgeo> shachaf, `erfdate
03:47:03 <Sgeo> shachaf, Erfworld updated
03:47:33 <Sgeo> It amuses me that another thing updated that isn't the thing you want to see updated
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03:48:12 <Sgeo> Note that I didn't say that I'm amused that the thing you want to update didn't update
03:49:23 <shachaf> Duly noted and recorded in your file for future reference.
03:54:18 <kmc> your permanent record
03:54:44 <shachaf> kmc: that's going a little far isn't it
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04:10:00 <HackEgo> Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors. \ Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category
04:10:09 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
04:10:40 <shachaf> `run sed -i '2s/$/./' wisdom/indexed\ monad
04:10:47 <HackEgo> Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors. \ Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category.
04:11:00 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
04:11:21 <kmc> "considered harmful when preceded by its quotation" considered harmful when preceded by its quotation
04:11:23 <oerjan> is that _really_ supposed to be two different lines.
04:11:37 <kmc> copumpkin: what. why.
04:11:39 <copumpkin> http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aXb0Bd6_460sa.gif
04:12:18 <shachaf> oerjan: There are two different meanings for the phrase. How should I do it?
04:13:02 <oerjan> why aren't any of the links loading...
04:13:13 <elliott> because you're still using IE, hth
04:13:33 <oerjan> i think it fails at an earlier point than that hth
04:15:38 <oerjan> is she eating a kitten help
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04:24:17 <oerjan> <kmc> 'malicious' is not really the standard <-- i've heard "stupid" is sometimes a good substitute hth
04:35:45 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa[...] <-- you seem stressed you should relax some hth
04:36:06 <kmc> oh misread
04:36:34 <oerjan> the nicks are just so similar
04:37:17 <shachaf> oerjan: wasn't it "incompetent' hth
04:40:47 <oerjan> shachaf: nope that's a later mangling hth
04:41:11 <shachaf> oerjan: have you ever considered quitting "hth"
04:41:51 <shachaf> oerjan: i agree, op elliott
04:42:01 <shachaf> then kick Phantom_Hoover and crown mnoqy
04:42:36 <oerjan> or wait it's been attributed to napoleon hm
04:43:00 <oerjan> of course he obviously said it in french hth
04:45:33 <oerjan> "Le mot impossible n'est pas français."
04:46:43 <HackEgo> olist 894: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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05:06:49 <Bike> kappabot: fuck
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05:20:53 <shachaf> kmc: what is the difference between lovers and 3-colorings of graphs..................
05:21:06 <kmc> baby don't hurt me
05:21:16 <shachaf> drummers have no soul in general hth
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05:40:31 <oerjan> wikiquote seems to doubt the napoleon attribution, given that it is from 2003.
05:41:51 <oerjan> i wonder whether in a generation we will be able to distinguish false and true references at all
05:44:04 <myname> shachaf: wtf @ question
05:44:38 <oerjan> <Taneb> I hope predicative datives come up
05:44:49 <oerjan> `wtf predicative datives
05:44:51 <HackEgo> why predicative datives is like wtf
05:47:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> mnoqy: whoa dude are linear transformations like concatenative languages <-- you may be confused by the fact they're both monoids hth
05:49:08 <elliott> i like how a freenode oper accidentally klined the entirety of webchat
05:49:25 <elliott> and now a billion people are joining #freenode asking why they got klined
05:50:12 <kmc> that is beautiful
05:51:03 <elliott> also #freenode is literally the worst channel
05:51:10 <mnoqy> worse than #esoteric ???
05:51:30 <oerjan> why don't file: pages have a proper history link, i wanted to see if the description has been changed
05:51:56 <elliott> also the kline messages say it was for "harrassing people"
05:52:01 <elliott> so ppl are kind of upset about it
05:52:10 <oerjan> oh i can get to it by pressing edit on the description first
05:52:53 <oerjan> elliott: no on wikipedia.
05:52:58 <elliott> oerjan: perhaps the file is on commons
05:53:00 <oerjan> anyway i found it https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Grand_Junction_from_Mass_Ave.JPG&diff=98335089&oldid=76213178
05:56:25 <oerjan> gah that commons stuff is confusing
05:56:57 <oerjan> something else that irritates me is when people link to commons pictures directly without context
05:59:05 <oerjan> DdEe4Aai? did kmc accidentally switch username and password?
06:00:11 <kmc> why would my wikipedia username be related to anything else
06:00:17 <kmc> it's random
06:00:19 <kmc> password is random as well
06:01:08 <oerjan> concurrent haskell, multiocular o and methylamine... yeah that's kmc all right.
06:01:26 <oerjan> itt kmc has just scrambled to fix his password away from kmc
06:02:28 <kmc> you know my interests
06:02:34 <kmc> they reverted my methylamine edit
06:02:44 <kmc> i also tried to create Category:Toroidal foods
06:03:19 <mnoqy> why would anyone delete that!!
06:04:42 <kmc> because they hate freedom
06:05:51 <zzo38> No, it is because they hate toriodal foods.
06:06:16 <kmc> america is about freedom, the freedom to eat foods of any topological genus you like
06:06:22 <kmc> and to deep fry them as well
06:06:58 <oerjan> kmc: technically "concurrent haskell" + "multiocular o" narrows it down to someone in this channel, and "methylamine" does the rest hth
06:07:41 <Bike> what foods have genus, say, three
06:07:41 <shachaf> kmc: what about your reddit username
06:07:44 <oerjan> deep fried bagels, check
06:07:47 <shachaf> once upon a time i knew what it was "but i forgot"
06:08:21 <kmc> i think i'm more obsessed with multiocular o than most
06:08:42 <oerjan> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_(mathematics)#Orientable_surface hth
06:08:45 <kmc> Bike: well there are braided breads
06:08:53 <kmc> the holes usually go away in baking I guess
06:09:44 <Bike> oerjan: ?? those aren't foods!
06:09:53 <oerjan> although technically it's only the surface that is toroidal for bakery
06:11:39 <oerjan> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kringle hth
06:12:09 <shachaf> What happened to all of kmc's edits?
06:12:26 <shachaf> I only see two in -- oh, never mind.
06:13:12 <oerjan> shachaf: they were reverted by the CIA, NSA, FBI and RIAA hth
06:13:31 <oerjan> sometimes with edit wars between the organizations
06:14:11 <shachaf> whew someone deleted the popular culture reference of methylamine
06:14:14 <oerjan> wtf do they use a picture of a german pretzel
06:14:19 <shachaf> popular culture sections are the worst thing
06:14:42 <oerjan> popular culture sections in popular culture: not very popular
06:15:06 <shachaf> (→Popular culture: methylamine is not capable of being aware - removed the section because it is just trivia anyway) (undo)
06:15:24 <shachaf> i bet that person kills intelligent calcium, too
06:17:28 <kmc> damn now i'm hungry for a pretzel
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06:24:53 <zzo38> I am not the only one who want a three button mouse with no scroll wheel.
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06:28:35 <shachaf> zzo38: Last time you asked, I looked it up and it seemed possible to order it online.
06:40:20 <kmc> cereal mouse
06:42:38 <shachaf> hey remember the house with the x in the middle that people used to draw
06:44:15 <kmc> shachaf: no, also what
06:45:37 <kmc> i do not remember this house
06:45:38 <Bike> you draw a house as a square with diagonals with a triangle on top
06:45:52 <Bike> the game is doing it without drawing a line twice
06:46:14 <kmc> so you have to start at a vertex of odd degree?
06:46:30 <Bike> yeah it's babby's first eulerian whatever
06:46:37 <Bike> did taht shit back in elementary school man
06:47:14 <shachaf> by people i mean first-graders (i was once among their ranks)
06:47:37 <Bike> kmc's deprived
06:47:43 <kmc> just forgot
06:47:47 <Bike> how the hell is that so common i wonder
06:48:08 <kmc> did you ever join the pen 15 club
06:48:10 <shachaf> did you have the game where you press 1 + 1 = = = = = = = ... in a calculator
06:48:17 <shachaf> and see how high you could get
06:48:19 <kmc> what would that do
06:48:27 <Bike> missed out on pen 15
06:48:29 <kmc> oh it repeats the last action
06:48:30 <shachaf> (or did you just do the second part (drugz joke))
06:48:35 <kmc> why not 2 * 2 = = = = = =
06:48:40 <kmc> much faster
06:48:42 <shachaf> because the point is inefficiency hth
06:48:50 <shachaf> why not just type 99999999
06:49:00 <Bike> why not just type BB(3)
06:49:02 <kmc> why not just drop out of school and go fuck yourself
06:49:11 <Bike> is that a drugz joke
06:49:17 <kmc> it's a go fuck yourself joke
06:49:18 <Bike> OH that reminds me
06:49:27 <shachaf> also this was all in hebrew btw hth
06:49:34 <Bike> at college orientation the coordinator had to clarify by "cigarette" she meant nicotine
06:49:36 <shachaf> not that that matters, except for your club
06:49:44 <Bike> glorious blazeit future
06:49:49 <kmc> this is in WA?
06:49:55 <kmc> what context
06:50:03 <kmc> smoking a joint indoors is still a douche move
06:50:13 <Bike> just explaining that drugs weren't allowed in this event even if they're legal
06:50:34 <kmc> we had to clarify that you weren't allowed to give hallucinogens to prefrosh even if they were technically legal
06:50:40 <shachaf> smoking near a building is also a terrible thing to do
06:50:46 <shachaf> if you smoke near a building i can smell it from the inside
06:50:48 <Bike> it's cool how everybody my age is more used to weed than nicotine
06:51:22 <kmc> i think pot smoke smells far less offensive than cig smoke
06:51:29 <shachaf> Oh, but I found someone who's even more sensitive to smoking than I am.
06:51:37 <Bike> elliott: my phrase was so boring it wasn't worthy of kool letterz, imo
06:51:47 <kmc> i used to smoke hookah pretty regularly
06:51:54 <shachaf> conal won't "h8 u 4 ever", though, because he's too nice
06:51:55 <elliott> i don't even know what weed smells like #deprivedofdrugz
06:52:03 <Bike> pot smoke kind of pisses me off but tobacco smoke gets me to leave so
06:52:14 <elliott> thanks to psychic drugz instinct and the internet
06:52:26 <kmc> elliott: how to find out what weed smells like: 1) go to san francisco
06:53:04 <shachaf> well you could also just download the smell file into your smellotronic of course
06:53:21 -!- shachaf has set topic: For the other use | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
06:53:21 <elliott> kmc: that sounds like literally the most expensive way to find out what weed smells like imaginable
06:53:42 <shachaf> elliott: um, it's p. cheap hth
06:53:43 <kmc> i think sense of smell doesn't have a small basis set and so smellotronics will never be practical :'(
06:53:54 <kmc> caltrain doesn't go to hexham
06:53:56 <kmc> except on weekends
06:54:07 <shachaf> and on football/baseball game days
06:54:25 <kmc> whenever the giants play the hexham hexers
06:54:28 <shachaf> join #cslounge-trains to find out
06:54:56 <kmc> is that a real team or 'football clubbe' as you say
06:55:07 <Bike> does hexham have weed.
06:55:15 <shachaf> elliott: imo come to san francisco
06:55:22 <kmc> i've heard the UK has mostly awful adulterated 'soapbar hash'
06:55:41 <Bike> that sounds kind of horrifying.
06:55:55 <shachaf> i clicked-to-play the big flash thing
06:55:56 <Bike> alt. a new and exciting way to clean oneself + sell hemp products to idiots
06:56:01 <shachaf> and there's another click-to-play flash thing inside it
06:56:11 <kmc> how deep does it go
06:56:45 <shachaf> hexhamfc has 163 facebook likes
06:56:54 <shachaf> if you click on the facebook logo it shows you a bigger picture of the facebook logo
06:57:04 <elliott> this website is pretty hexham
06:57:13 <shachaf> i wanted to see if taneb ""liked"" it
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07:00:22 <shachaf> ok what other games did we play in elementary school
07:01:05 <shachaf> in maths class in third grade we had an ""official"" game where you would think of a number and then go up and name predicates that narrowed it down until it was determined uniquely
07:02:09 <shachaf> maybe i should go back to third grade
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07:27:44 <shachaf> people claiming that Maybe-alikes which don't distinguish Nothing and Just Nothing are monads :'(
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08:32:05 <shachaf> people confusing utf-8 with unicode :'(
08:37:52 <elliott> shachaf: maybe is usually a functor
08:40:50 <fungot> shachaf: i think she's already in bed and all. she replies, " what does " advice" do? it would require
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09:04:29 <HackEgo> irctc283: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
09:04:59 <Lymia> "people claiming that Maybe-alikes which don't distinguish Nothing and Just Nothing are monads :'("
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09:05:02 <Lymia> How do you even make such a thing
09:06:18 <Lymia> The only thing I can think of is null values
09:06:22 <Lymia> And I wouldn't call those maybe-alike at all.
09:06:31 <Lymia> Rather, I would call maybes null-like in uses >.<
09:08:41 <fizzie> Wasn't there a Java thing that explicitly called itself a Maybe that did that?
09:46:25 <zzo38> Is there some sequent calculus logic where the turnstile indicates that whatever is on one side is better than that on the other side?
09:48:52 <zzo38> Normally in sequent calculus you have exactly one sequent below the line. What if this rule isn't used? If there is more than one sequent below the line, you still have to use all of them, just as you would for multiple sequents above the line.
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11:24:16 <shachaf> Taneb: There was an olist update while you were gone, by the way.
11:27:49 <shachaf> Taneb: Want to be added to `olist?
11:28:08 <Taneb> There should have been an slist too
11:28:22 <Taneb> `slist the rogue talks to the dog some more
11:28:23 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
11:28:51 <HackEgo> head: cannot open `olist' for reading: No such file or directory
11:28:53 <HackEgo> head: cannot open `slist' for reading: No such file or directory
11:28:56 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
11:29:00 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
11:29:28 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/:/${@:+ }$@:/' bin/slist
11:29:33 <shachaf> `slist the rogue talks to the dog some more
11:29:35 <HackEgo> slist the rogue talks to the dog some more: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
11:29:43 <shachaf> Hmm, should it have parentheses or something?
11:30:00 <Taneb> shachaf, I hope to see some progress by the time I return
11:30:05 <shachaf> Well, you can always provide those yourself.
11:30:17 <shachaf> I already solved the problem. hth
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14:37:21 <Koen_> okay guys what's up
14:37:26 <Koen_> what's going on in the world?
14:37:41 <Koen_> how great is humanity doing?
14:39:31 <olsner> could be doing greater, I think
14:42:09 <Koen_> what are your suggestions?
14:42:15 <Koen_> what can I do right now about it?
14:43:00 <olsner> you can be vaguely dissatisfied with the current state of humanity
14:43:21 <Koen_> you're so pessimist
14:51:23 <Koen_> so olsner what about you how are you doing?
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15:59:50 <Taneb> You know what is more insane
16:00:03 <Taneb> The time of tonight's sunset in Reykjavik
16:08:10 <nooodl> sunrise only about 3 hours later too
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16:15:05 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/d6645df20881164379949e93bc2c08ae/tumblr_mojnlaGspx1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg
16:15:54 <Taneb> Bike, what game is that
16:16:04 <Bike> crusader kings ii
16:22:47 <fizzie> The trials and tribulations of living in a metric country: camera tripod mounts use a 1/4 inch UNC thread, but the local hardware stores sell nuts and bolts only in the metric system.
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16:43:06 <nooodl> "The above reaction occurs explosively with enough force to shatter a Pyrex beaker."
16:43:35 <olsner> does it go dink or boom?
16:43:41 <nooodl> (caesium + water forming caesium hydroxide)
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17:08:41 <brendalis> hola busco a personas para charlar un rato
17:11:09 <myname> did this happen frequently?
17:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> they started slinging abuse at me in spanish for some reason
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17:28:50 <myname> english, motherfucker, do you speak it?
17:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> el ltimo hombre que hablaba espaol dej tras decir algunas cosas sobre mi madre
17:31:52 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: was that google translated or do you actually hablas español?
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17:32:48 <olsner> myname: español, do you habla it?
17:33:07 <myname> nein, aber ich spreche deutsch
17:33:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you're not utf-8 hth
17:34:24 <oerjan> let's just make it easy for everyone and ban xchat hth
17:34:49 <myname> tbh i don't get your "hth" stuff everywhere
17:34:53 <oerjan> olsner: ok ban it _unless_ you make utf-8 work properly.
17:34:56 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: it's in the settings hth
17:35:05 <nooodl> freenode -> edit -> char set -> utf-8
17:36:33 <oerjan> myname: fwiw it's the hth singularity hth
17:37:56 <olsner> someone should make hth into an esolang of some sort
17:38:22 <myname> olsner: like a default answer of java2k?
17:40:54 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*elc*es: No such file or directory
17:41:06 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*elc*es
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17:43:25 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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17:55:06 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:55:20 <myname> do do run run run, do do run run
17:55:36 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: /bin/bash: cannot execute binary file
17:56:07 <FreeFull> `run $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0 exec $0
17:56:09 <HackEgo> bash: exec: No such file or directory
17:57:07 <FreeFull> `run $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0
17:57:36 <FreeFull> `run $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c $0 -c echo $0
17:57:38 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
17:58:07 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
18:00:06 <ais523> perhaps you ran out of ptys or something?
18:02:22 <FreeFull> It just did something different
18:04:32 <ais523> actually, it's probably something to do with HackEgo's sandboxing
18:06:44 <Bike> `run $0 -c $0 -c yes
18:07:15 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
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18:28:36 <oerjan> `run bash -c 'echo hi'
18:29:43 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.1$
18:30:51 <oerjan> FreeFull: i think the problem is the -c's aren't actually _nested_, but done in parallel, so you are running bash instances with no arguments, which means interactive.
18:31:21 <oerjan> you're going to need some fearsome escaping to get them nested
18:31:23 <myname> bash -c "bash -c echo foo"?
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18:58:38 <tswett> elliott: so have you heard about your younger brother? His name is Oliver.
18:58:42 <tswett> He was born about a month ago.
18:59:24 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
19:01:55 <oerjan> myname: i think that might not fit on one irc line hth
19:07:44 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins
19:07:54 <HackEgo> 173) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle.
19:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, have you come to terms with being australian yet
19:08:51 <tswett> Gudday mate. Drop bears.
19:09:34 <kmc> '; DROP BEARS --
19:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry brendalis-- wait what do you know about australia
19:11:22 <tswett> Oh right, right. Cunt.
19:11:48 <tswett> Cunt cunt cunt. Barbie. Drop bears. Dingo.
19:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> and 'mate', but i was leaving that one out because it was so obvious
19:13:00 <tswett> Ahoy, cunt. Yarr. Barbie.
19:14:10 <kmc> Bloq mayús: control de crucero para impresionar
19:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> brendalis, no es obvio a estas alturas que se trata de un canal de habla Ingls (y finlands)
19:18:04 <tswett> Hola brendalis, ¿cómo estás?
19:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ves que no vas a encontrar a nadie a hablar con usted aqu, sino por google translate
19:19:11 <tswett> Hm, cómo se dice "I've been playing Starcraft".
19:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> google translate... can't keep track of subjects and objects
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19:20:14 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: me parece correcto. "Por qué me tienes que socavar" = "why do you have to undermine me".
19:20:50 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case it got confused when I put it back into English to see if it made any sense.
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19:22:17 <tswett> "He estado jugando", eh? Bueno... he estado jugando Starcraft. Trato de entrar en la Silver League.
19:22:58 <tswett> Trato de entrar en la liga Silver.
19:23:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:23:52 <tswett> Soy de los EEUU. Míchigan.
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19:26:10 <Phantom_Hoover> surely somewhere there is a website with dimensions of things
19:27:33 <Taneb> howbigisthething.com
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19:27:55 <Taneb> (note: that does note exist)
19:29:03 <tswett> ADIÓS A TODOS my good friends
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19:44:38 <brendalis> odos haqui son aburrido yo me voy para chat version 2
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19:47:37 <Fiora> that person randomly messaged me too...
19:47:42 <Fiora> did he PM everyone or something?
19:51:46 <shachaf> i never get randomly messaged........is my nick not intriguing enough
19:52:12 <Fiora> it is weird :/ though sometimes I wish it happened a little more often... or well, maybe not the random people who just joined part.
19:59:28 <FreeFull> I sometimes get randomly messaged on here
20:00:01 <FreeFull> Probably because of ##gaygeeks
20:00:26 <nooodl> shachaf: once, some hebrew speaking guy will message you out of nowhere hth
20:00:48 <Fiora> freenode has lgbt channels? huh, cool
20:00:54 <shachaf> nooodl: oh that happens sometimes
20:01:15 <nooodl> i should make my name more obviously dutch...
20:01:24 <FreeFull> Fiora: It has had for quite a long time
20:01:29 <nooodl> i hear half of #haskell is dutch
20:01:34 <FreeFull> Although #gaygeeks is more popular than ##gaygeeks
20:01:47 <Fiora> there's... two different ones?
20:02:17 <ais523> I only get randomly PMed when I'm active
20:02:30 <ais523> most often when I'm telling someone new to #nethack that no, the channel is not about hacking into networks
20:02:43 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: #gaygeeks was the original but there was a schism
20:02:43 <ais523> probably like 30% of the time their response is to ask the same question again, except in a PM to me
20:02:54 <nooodl> ais523: that's happened to me ooonce i think
20:03:04 <Phantom_Hoover> FreeFull, over whether or not you should heed network policies on channel names?
20:03:05 <shachaf> don't you have to be voted for or something
20:03:23 <shachaf> (the joke is: prime ministered)
20:03:33 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: if i start a new channel and it doesn't have ## will i die
20:03:42 <FreeFull> I do believe it's quite a lot older than the policy
20:03:44 <shachaf> also i watched a bit of yes, prime minister recently so that's probably the reason for the joke
20:03:45 <nooodl> this is my biggest freenode worry
20:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're the 'official' representative of that name you can have #
20:04:27 <shachaf> what if the name starts with #
20:04:52 <nooodl> then an official channel is ##hi and an unofficial one is ###hi
20:05:07 <shachaf> what if the name is an infinite sequence of #s
20:05:12 <nooodl> hmm i guess that COULD conflict with like
20:05:16 <nooodl> the unofficial channel for "hi"
20:05:17 <shachaf> then the official and unofficial channels are the same channel
20:05:37 <Phantom_Hoover> the unofficial channel for hi is the official channel for #hi
20:05:54 <nooodl> shachaf is talking to himself hth
20:08:46 <nooodl> wow. the dutch word for "propyne" is pronounced "propene"
20:08:53 <nooodl> the dutch word for "propene" is pronounced "propane"
20:09:12 <nooodl> and the dutch word for "propane" is pronounced "pro-pahn"
20:10:49 <olsner> it's just english that has its vowels wrong
20:15:12 <FreeFull> How is the dutch word for "propahn" pronounced?
20:16:10 <nooodl> hmm "propahn" is a fixed point here
20:18:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
20:18:22 <FreeFull> > unwords . repeat $ "propahn"
20:18:23 <lambdabot> "propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn propahn pr...
20:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, is there anything that would get shifted to 'y'
20:19:38 <nooodl> man, how is "propyne" even pronounced
20:21:54 <nooodl> "propaine" would be pronounced "propyne" roughly
20:22:51 <nooodl> (the same way e.g. "cocaine" is pronounced rougly as "ko-kine")
20:23:04 <nooodl> the stress is on the /i/ part of the diphthong though
20:23:10 <oklopol> i thought it was pronounced co-cain
20:23:41 <oklopol> wait which language are we talking about
20:24:06 <nooodl> english words pronounced as dutch reinterpreted as dutch hth
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20:34:34 <kmc> http://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories/FreeBSD-SA-13:06.mmap.asc 'Due to insufficient permission checks in the virtual memory system, a tracing process (such as a debugger) may be able to modify portions of the traced process's address space to which the traced process itself does not have write access.'
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20:35:13 <Fiora> ooooh. that's sneaky
20:35:45 <Fiora> so basically, Foo opens a file for read, Bar opens a debugger and connects it to Foo, and Bar abuses its debugger access to modify the file.
20:35:56 <Fiora> I'm guessing mmappish?
20:35:59 <kmc> all of which you can do without special privileges
20:36:04 <kmc> yeah Foo mmaps the file
20:36:19 <kmc> so yeah you can write to any file you have permission to read
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20:38:53 <kmc> Linux has a history of dumb bugs too, but I feel like this particular one would have been discovered quickly in Linux
20:39:04 <kmc> not sure though
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20:39:24 <kmc> ptrace is like an infinite source of privilege escalation bugs
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20:39:49 <Fiora> yeah... I remember seeing it show up a lot
20:39:52 <Fiora> it seems like it'd be super hard to secure
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20:40:06 <kmc> scariest parts of linux: ptrace, backwards compat layers, gpu access, any little-used driver / filesystem / protocol
20:40:12 <kmc> ok that might be most of linux ;)
20:41:02 <Fiora> gpu access is probably scary everywhere >_<
20:41:12 <Fiora> I've heard that amd/nvidia drivers are something like as big as the entire linux kernel source tree
20:41:33 <kmc> and the open-source drivers are smaller, but still awful terrible code, plus they're based on an incomplete understanding of the hardware
20:41:33 <Fiora> it's terrifying, it's like, the drivers /just for a single piece of hardware/ are like, bigger than all the other drivers
20:41:42 <Fiora> yeah, I meant like the official ones
20:41:48 <kmc> hey i have a great idea let's make all of that attack surface accessible to untrusted javascript code
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20:42:43 <kmc> i assume there is also a large amount of code that runs on the card itself
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20:43:59 <kmc> at this point I basically understand a "computer" to be a network of specialized computers communicating over various buses
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20:47:38 <Bike_> http://24.media.tumblr.com/a0ad2807df0a09e378e1adf7d60ebced/tumblr_molqtoCHcF1qh3h8wo1_500.png PRISM comix
20:47:43 <nooodl> oh hey wow python has "cyclic infinite lists"
20:48:02 <nooodl> a = [1, [2, [3, None]]]; a[1][1][1] = a
20:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike_, this is the kind of prism comix i can get behind
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20:50:40 <Fiora> kmc: it still kind of amazes me that like, this "graphics driver" thing converts things like opengl and directx commands, in crazy ultra fast realtime, into a bunch of like, floating point assembly code that gets run on the gpu
20:50:44 <Bike> nooodl: so uh, the same infinite lists you get in anything with modifiable lists?
20:50:48 <Fiora> and somehow it like, all works, and happens in milliseconds
20:50:48 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: was opposed to what
20:51:34 <nooodl> Bike: yup, except they're not actually infinite lists
20:51:46 <Bike> what's not infinite about it
20:51:48 <nooodl> a contains itself but isn't a sublist of itself
20:51:51 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i don't get it
20:52:15 <Bike> nooodl: well that's because you're using arrays in that way.
20:52:20 <Bike> if you define "sublist" appropriately...
20:52:25 <nooodl> you have to use a as a "linked list" kinda thing. there's no way to actually construct [1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, ...]
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20:57:06 <Fiora> you should use an IRC bouncer thing <.<
20:57:53 <shachaf> or an irc client running on a server thing
20:58:24 <Fiora> isnt that like the same thing? or...
20:58:43 <Bike_> sounds complicated
21:00:05 <kmc> sort of the same thing
21:00:33 <kmc> with a bouncer you run a local IRC client that connects to the bouncer
21:00:52 <kmc> i think it's simpler to just run irssi on the server and ssh/mosh in
21:00:57 <kmc> but i haven't tried the bouncer approach
21:01:06 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
21:02:15 <Fiora> I've only done the latter thing
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21:12:42 <quintopia> it would be simple if bitlbee hadn't just utterly broken around when my iptables rules disappeared
21:13:30 <quintopia> myndzi sent me messages and i don't know what they are about
21:13:38 <ion> Also check out Minbif.
21:13:48 <quintopia> i think he must be replying to messages i sent a million years ago
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21:32:19 <fizzie> You can also do the thing where the irssi on the server *is* the bouncer you connect to.
21:33:00 <fizzie> There's an irssi module called "proxy" for that.
21:33:09 <fizzie> Though it's been kind of sucky at times; I don't know how it is nowadays.
21:33:36 <kmc> hm bouncer method seems less secure too, unless you bother tunneling it over ssh
21:33:48 <fizzie> I think it's for people who have a shell account somewhere and irssi there, but also want to use a GUI client when at home.
21:33:53 <kmc> you may trust the connection from your server to freenode more than random laptop public wifi
21:34:04 <fizzie> Or you do SSL; I think most bouncers support that.
21:34:10 <fizzie> Mine does authentication with client certs.
21:34:13 <kmc> then you have to juggle certs :(
21:34:17 <Fiora> quassel supports SSL, it seems?
21:34:22 <kmc> I'm biased because Mosh ;P
21:34:48 <kmc> i knew a guy who ran all of his laptop network traffic through OpenVPN in UDP mode
21:34:57 <kmc> so all of his local clients would roam
21:35:08 <kmc> it was pretty sweet
21:35:33 <fizzie> I think 99% of my talk through the bouncer these days comes through the irssi running on the same server as the bouncer; I just had this period of trying out a number of clients, and the bouncer made that easier.
21:35:48 <fizzie> (The last percent is that Android IRC client thing.)
21:37:34 <Bike> client+server+bouncer is kind of an odd architecture...
21:37:58 <fizzie> Sometimes it's client-client + client-server + bouncer + server.
21:38:35 <fizzie> Though maybe people who use clients that involve a separate server component don't do bouncers?
21:39:34 <kmc> i'm talking to you right now by typing on a keyboard which emulates a 1980s keyboard protocol to talk to an X server which sends those keystrokes over a UNIX socket to another program which emulates a 1970s terminal and sends them on to another program which encrypts them and sends them out in UDP packets to another program emulating a 1970s terminal, running on an OS derived from a hobbyist's recreation of 1980s UNIX, which is actual
21:39:41 <kmc> ogram inside that terminal then talks to freenode
21:39:57 <Bike> so, computers are dumb
21:40:03 <kmc> no they are the best
21:40:22 <Bike> it is cool how "building on the ruins" it obviously is
21:40:38 <kmc> soon Linux and x86 will just be a compatibility layer
21:40:43 <Bike> especially during boot~
21:40:47 <kmc> providing none of the actual services they were designed to
21:41:04 <fizzie> "-- which is actual" "ogram inside --" there seems to be a bit of a discontinuity there.
21:41:20 <kmc> actually compiled to run as a virtual machine on another OS I don't have access to, and the program inside that terminal then talks to freenode
21:41:29 <kmc> sorry, i was copy-pasting from a description i gave earlier elsewhere
21:41:35 <kmc> because damn if I can be bothered to type that all again
21:41:49 <kmc> it's like that interview question "You type google.com at a browser and hit enter. What happens?"
21:42:06 <Bike> if i'm ever asked that i swear i'll answer with monadology
21:42:27 <kmc> someone told me that good candidates start with switch debouncing
21:42:43 <Bike> "Perfect! We've been looking for philosopher to join the DogBook team"
21:42:43 <fizzie> How about the people who start scribbling down the wave function of the enter key?
21:43:03 <kmc> one of these days i should learn how transistors work
21:43:15 <Bike> oh i'm taking "design of logic circuits" this semester
21:43:24 <Bike> is that remotely electronicy, or more like vhdl
21:43:33 <Bike> probably the latter i guess
21:43:35 <fizzie> It doesn't sound very electronicy.
21:43:43 <fizzie> But of course you can't trust names.
21:43:47 <Bike> i hope i can take a good course on circuitry sometime
21:43:53 <Bike> i think i do have elctrodynamics at some point so that's nice.
21:44:16 <kmc> i really blew off freshman E&M
21:44:20 <kmc> sometimes i regret it, a little
21:44:21 <fizzie> We had some obligatory eletronics, but it was mostly just calculating numbers in circuits with op-amps in them.
21:44:40 <Bike> i might have to take electrophysiology at some point. now that's something to look forward to
21:44:59 <fizzie> (Some people seem to consider op-amps quite holy.)
21:45:10 <Bike> "so you know how capacitors work, right? well a cell membrane is like a capacitor. but ALSO like a resistor. Plus it varies across the surface"
21:45:44 <kmc> transmission lines are also that
21:46:05 <kmc> you know what's kind of weird? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
21:46:33 <fizzie> You know what's kind of weird? Physics.
21:46:48 <Bike> from what i can tell electrophysiology doesn't work with basic electrodynamics very well
21:47:01 <Bike> since you have like, proteins transporting individual calcium ions
21:47:08 <kmc> i was at MITERS and they were using braided conductors for some kind of scary high voltage and/or high current project
21:47:11 <Bike> how do you even get a voltage out of that
21:48:04 <kmc> actually do you know what the REALLY high current "crush metal objects with magnetic fields" project used for a conductor? copper pipe with coolant flowing through it
21:48:07 <Bike> kmc: wow transmission lines look hard
21:48:43 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Bike i heard the hairy ball theorem has applications in cell electrowhatevers
21:49:05 <Bike> ugh it probably does
21:49:30 <kmc> http://everything2.com/user/iceowl/writeups/No+user+serviceable+parts+inside classic story
21:49:31 <Bike> because it's just another cool thing i don't understand
21:50:26 <Bike> i get up to http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/e/c/5ec607907b2588dc038c1ef0168475dc.png and my eyes glaze over
21:50:59 <Bike> kmc: that's kind of cool to see after i drove past bonneville yesterday.
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21:52:14 <Bike> kmc: just, i drove through the columbia gorge, which is full of damns and massive fucking power lines
21:52:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: wow fuck i just realized that's a fourth derivative ;_;
21:52:51 <kmc> communism is Soviet power plus the electrification of the whole country
21:52:53 <Bike> it's kind of neat to think that i get most of my power from a historic dam
21:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> re electricity, i direct you to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmOfxuI_gXg
21:53:07 <Bike> even if everyone here hates the administration
21:53:13 <kmc> i guess that's why there's a hydro plant on the seal of north korea
21:53:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: whoa ._.
21:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqgNrj6oEdc was the one i was looking for
21:54:05 <Bike> "You can actually help the electric company supply the world. Your electric meter runs backward and you suspect you've just discovered a great way for the university to save money through the totally inefficient, indirect generation of power through diesel generators." lol
21:54:14 <kmc> the trollybuses in SF say "ZERO EMISSIONS VEHICLE" which I thought was kind of bullshit until I realized the electricity comes from the Hetch Hetchy hydroelectric plants
21:54:32 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i'm amazed the cameraperson didn't fucking bolt
21:54:54 <kmc> oh yeah those are the best Phantom_Hoover
21:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> where it's like an elevation map and it has all the dams drawn on it
21:55:23 <itsy> Has anyone designed their own tshirt with a program printed on it? I'm just trying to now via several online t-shirt studios... Unfortunately they're all a bit of a pain (not supporting monospace fonts, etc).
21:55:58 <kmc> i used Zazzle once and uploaded a huge-res png
21:56:01 <kmc> worked fine
21:56:13 <kmc> i think they take PDF too but I wanted to do the rasterization myself just in case
21:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i liked it because it made me realise that hydro power is basically just a matter of mass flow and potential difference along the river's course
21:56:56 <Bike> huh, i wonder if they use that to teach how electrical current works.
21:57:19 <Bike> well water yeah
21:57:22 <Bike> hydropower though?
21:57:25 <kmc> it was a shirt that says "Beweis: klar. □" in LaTeX / Computer Modern
21:57:49 <Bike> maybe they do around here. hmmmmm
21:58:03 <itsy> kmc: I might try that, thanks...
21:58:26 <Bike> also, awesome field trip
21:59:35 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-UTYzfNjKM
21:59:56 <Bike> it's weird how "Computer Architecture" and "Electromagnetic Fields and Waves" are both EE...
22:00:12 <kmc> at MIT they put EE and CS in the same major even
22:00:24 <kmc> although you can declare like a concentration within Course VI
22:00:41 <Bike> really, i thought they'd split them up by now.
22:00:50 <fizzie> kmc: The Helsinki metro advertises itself visibly as zero-emission in the regional-public-transit-route-finder guilt-trip emissions-for-different-modes-of-transit tables produced along the routes; that's because the electricity comes from "Finnish hydropower". (They don't give more details on that.)
22:00:50 <Bike> kmc: also: i'm never going to look at substations the same way again ;_;
22:00:58 <Bike> "that was cool"
22:01:26 <fizzie> Also I think the trams too.
22:01:54 <fizzie> (Oh, there's the details. "When you travel by tram or metro in Helsinki, you are using electricity produced by Finnish hydropower supplied by Helsingin Energia. -- HKL purchases the electricity needed for the tram and metro services from Helsingin Energia as certified hydropower, which means that the electricity is certified to have been produced by hydropower. Helsingin Energia produces ...
22:02:00 <fizzie> ... electricity by hydropower at the Mankala, Ahvenkoski, Klåsarö and Ediskoski hydropower plants located by the River Kymijoki as well as at the Kemijoki power plant.")
22:02:18 <Bike> oh nice, there's an undergrad course covering ASIC
22:02:41 <kmc> Bike: did you see there's a Coursera course on how to write your own VLSI design/layout tools?
22:02:44 <kmc> sounds insanely hardcore
22:03:17 <Bike> why the hell is "Introduction to Computer Networks" (covering protocol layers, etc) in EE...
22:03:33 <Bike> oh it's crosslisted.
22:03:40 * Bike excited for school, sorry
22:03:44 <kmc> i was wondering the other day if say Intel uses standard tools to design their processors
22:03:44 <fizzie> Bike: Because there are ELECTRONS in the COPPER.
22:04:01 <kmc> or if they have their own in-house stuff that's more capable than anything on the market
22:04:03 <Bike> "really, why isn't everything in the physics department"
22:04:26 <Bike> oh, the other thing about the gorge is that there are a ton of wind turbines
22:04:26 <fizzie> Except real maths, presumably.
22:04:26 <kmc> we had a lot of CS/EE and CS/Ma cross listing
22:04:44 <Bike> i don't know what they're powering, because nobody lives out there, but whatever
22:04:50 <kmc> and some CS/Ph and maybe CS/APh (physics, applied physics)
22:05:09 <kmc> i'm amused that Ph 125 was quantum and Ch 125 was quantum for chemists and Pl 125 was philosophy of quantum
22:05:25 <Bike> relativistic quantum chemistry is p. terrifying
22:05:40 <fizzie> There were quite a few wind turbines up in the Alps in Switzerland. (I guess it's windy?)
22:05:40 <Bike> starting with the name
22:05:44 <kmc> also somebody pointed out that quantum field theory and general relativity classes were scheduled at the same time
22:05:47 <kmc> so they conflicted
22:05:48 <Fiora> relativistic quantum chemistry is amazing
22:06:03 <Bike> i'm glad quantum effects aren't really relevant to neuro because god
22:06:15 <Fiora> like "gold is shiny and yellow because of contraction caused by relativistic electron motion" askdjfls
22:06:32 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:06:55 <kmc> the GR textbook is a massive (heh) black book that says "GRAVITATION" on the cover
22:07:04 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Physics-Series-Charles-Misner/dp/0716703440
22:07:17 <kmc> whereas the advanced number theory text is a slim yellow volume titled "Introduction to Arithmetic"
22:07:40 <Bike> physicists have the best PR
22:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i still haven't visited my university library and every time i remember that it troubles me
22:08:36 <Bike> why would you not
22:08:41 <Bike> those things are the best
22:09:08 <kmc> i tended to buy the textbooks that looked cool rather than the ones for the courses i was taking
22:09:12 <Fiora> Bike is like the master of devouring university libraries
22:09:14 <Fiora> he's pretty amazing
22:10:00 <Bike> i literally bought a book by kolmogorov, during orientation, on a subject i'll never use in my life
22:10:13 <Bike> (because "wow, kolmogorov". i'm shallow)
22:10:30 <Bike> "Explore applications, including pulsars and neutron stars, cosmology, the Schwarzschild geometry and gravitational collapse, and gravitational waves" yeah those are good applications
22:10:43 <kmc> Build Your Own Neutron Star In 21 Days
22:11:04 <kmc> collapse the false vaccum in your spare time using household materials
22:11:22 <Bike> learn how to overcome the schwarzchild limit with this one weird old trick
22:11:22 <Fiora> Discover the Astounding Properties of Nuclear Matter!
22:11:44 <Fiora> ... oh gosh that reminds me of this thing
22:11:44 <Fiora> http://www.oneweirdkerneltrick.com/
22:11:51 <kmc> yeah that's the best
22:11:59 <kmc> it was made by some people the csloungers know
22:12:01 <kmc> for SIGBOVIK
22:12:27 <kmc> "The possibility that we are living in a false vacuum has never been a cheering one to contemplate. Vacuum decay is the ultimate ecological catastrophe; in the new vacuum there are new constants of nature; after vacuum decay, not only is life as we know it impossible, so is chemistry as we know it.
22:12:32 <kmc> However, one could always draw stoic comfort from the possibility that perhaps in the course of time the new vacuum would sustain, if not life as we know it, at least some structures capable of knowing joy. This possibility has now been eliminated."
22:12:54 <Bike> i read a sci-fi novel about that once
22:12:56 <Fiora> "What is Kim's secret to keeping off the pounds while pregnant?? The blogs say Kim eats corn one kernel at a time. But we're talking of another kind of weird kernel trick!! "
22:12:58 <Bike> guess it needs to be updated!
22:13:10 <Fiora> wasn't there like, some sci-fi novel where um... they were like, on a spaceship fleeing a vacuum collapse-esque thing?
22:13:21 <Bike> yeah, that's the one
22:13:24 <Bike> schild's ladder
22:13:29 <Taneb> Fiora, is it going to turn out that Kim stays slim while pregnant by contributing to Linux?
22:13:32 <Bike> by egan, so, weird
22:13:37 <Bike> wrong sense of "kernel" taneb
22:13:38 <Fiora> and another where the far future denizens of the heat death universe sent messeners back in time to cause a vacuum collapse to spawn new universes rather than forever inhabit a dead one
22:13:42 <Bike> good guess though!
22:14:01 <Fiora> (that's um... gah. what was it...)
22:14:22 <Bike> huh, optics for EE is 500-level...
22:14:35 <Bike> "524 Advanced Computer Architecture 3 Instruction set architectures, pipelining and super pipelining, instruction level parallelism, superscalar and VLIW processors, cache memory, thread-level parallelism and VLSI." seriously how is that EE
22:14:40 <kmc> what year are you Bike
22:14:46 <shachaf> oh the book i was thinking of was _Time_ by Stephen Baxter
22:14:49 <Fiora> it's not Darwin's Radio...
22:14:51 <Bike> junior by credits
22:14:52 <Fiora> Oh! That might have been it
22:14:54 <shachaf> Such an event would be one possible doomsday event. It was used as a plot device in a science-fiction story in 1988 by Geoffrey A. Landis,[16] in 2000 by Stephen Baxter,[17] and in 2002 by Greg Egan.[18]
22:14:58 <Bike> i mean i'll never be taking these things, but still
22:15:02 <Bike> fun to look at
22:15:08 <Taneb> I once read a sci fi book where they had a space ship powered by American "chedder" that someone had put in a particle accelerator for a laugh
22:15:24 <Taneb> Except the space ship was just a Boeing 747
22:15:35 <shachaf> I think I read _Time_ and _Space_.
22:16:07 <Fiora> the Xeelee books were really cool
22:16:09 <Bike> the coolest class i could probably take is biomechanics: "Methods for analysis of rigid body and deformable mechanics; application to biological tissue, especially bone, cartilage, ligaments, tendon and muscle. "
22:16:13 <Fiora> especially the civilization on a neutral star one *_*
22:16:17 <Bike> for the Unreal Tournament factor
22:16:34 <shachaf> I don't think I read anything else by him.
22:17:11 <Fiora> ummm... I don't know
22:17:12 <Bike> it's ok if there's more than one book about neutron star civilizations, imo
22:17:35 <Fiora> shachaf: it tends to be like... totally crazy idea-filled books that are heavy on the silly sci-fi speculation and kind of light on the characters and stuff
22:17:45 <Fiora> so um, if you like that kind of thing it can be fun
22:17:48 <Bike> hard sci-fi as it were
22:17:50 <Fiora> Vacuum Diagrams was really cool though
22:18:00 <Bike> do i get ostracized for liking soft sci-fi more
22:18:06 <Fiora> I loved the short stories in that one, I think his ideas kind of work better as short stories than longer ones
22:18:22 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: huh? who's banks......
22:18:24 <Fiora> my favorite ever was one the one where members of the resistance end up being caught by the Qax and are fleeing the solar system on a starship
22:18:28 <Fiora> but a missile ends up going after them
22:18:36 <Fiora> and the missile reconfigures itself over time to accelerate faster and faster
22:18:44 <Taneb> Bike, my sci-fi is softer than your sci-fi
22:18:55 <Fiora> and so they have to make more and more sacrifices, eventually brain-uploading when the missile accelerates to like 1000Gs
22:18:56 <Bike> oh yeah well my sci-fi is so soft it's actually victorian romance!!!
22:19:14 <Fiora> and they finally deal with the missile by passing by a rotating black hole, stealing energy from it in the process, catching the missile in the ergosphere
22:19:23 <Fiora> .... only to find they're now going so fast they can't ever slow down
22:19:25 <Taneb> Well, mine's a cold war era spy novel!
22:19:33 <Fiora> and it's been 10 million years in an unmoving reference frames
22:19:34 <kmc> the hardest sci-fi is arxiv papers
22:19:41 <kmc> there's a paper on arxiv about how to build a self-replicating intergalactic exploration probe
22:20:00 <kmc> another paper about what to do to save earth when the sun blows up in 5 billion years or so
22:20:08 <kmc> it does require a fair amount of advance planning
22:20:09 <Fiora> kmc: gosh that "neutron stars might actually be GUT-powered proton combustion chambers" was the best thing
22:20:14 <kmc> Fiora: what
22:20:21 <Fiora> http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009arXiv0912.0520D
22:20:30 <kmc> here's the "how to save the earth" paper http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4052
22:20:35 <Fiora> like really that paper is so cool
22:20:42 <Taneb> Anyway, Space scares me. Msg me when you have it sorted out
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22:21:02 <Fiora> basically its that at the core of a neutron star density could get so high it'd be like, 2 earths in the volume of an apple
22:21:12 <Fiora> and the energy'd be so high that it'd hit electroweak unification levels
22:21:19 <Bike> "The source of energy in the core that can at least temporarily balance gravity are standard-model non-perturbative baryon number (B) and lepton number (L) violating processes that allow the chemical potential of B+L to relax to zero" help
22:21:20 <Fiora> and that'd allow proton burning
22:21:31 <Bike> kmc: "gigayears"
22:21:39 <kmc> proton burning...
22:21:43 <Taneb> Saying that, being in the front of fast cars scares me
22:21:44 <kmc> what do you get when you burn a proton
22:21:45 <Fiora> which would provide a completely insane amount of energy
22:21:52 <Fiora> annihilation basically I think?
22:21:56 <Fiora> so like, conversion to pure energy
22:22:04 <Bike> this really is sci-fi, nothing but sci-fi has such shitty names
22:22:04 <Taneb> kmc, an oxidated proton, of course
22:22:16 <Fiora> neutrinos + gamma rays or I guess I don't remember what it generates >_<
22:22:40 <Fiora> but because it's at the dead center, the redshift is so huge and neutrino capture is so huge that like, most of the energy won't really escape
22:22:59 <Bike> hm, what department's classes should i check next...
22:23:27 <Fiora> then there was like the um. oh right. the one about how if antiparticles repel matter (unlikely but not ruled out), black holes should serve as massive antineutrino guns
22:23:28 <shachaf> Fiora: should i read banks y/n
22:23:31 <kmc> i like the part where they propose to adjust the earth's orbit by flinging asteroids past us repeatedly
22:23:32 <Bike> "Gods, Spirits, Witchcraft and Possession" is a good course title
22:23:33 <Taneb> I'm gonna go on a ramble to highlight how much I suck at physics
22:23:39 <Fiora> banks is super cool! I started with Look to Windward
22:23:46 <Bike> Fiora: that is just the weirdest idea, the antigravity thing
22:23:50 <kmc> "Although the `swing-by'- idea is an elegant method it will have some inherent problems which must be mentioned, for instance, such as the problem of a collision of the `swing-by' asteroid with Earth."
22:23:54 <Taneb> Well, burning is sort of adding oxygen
22:24:04 <Taneb> So, if you burn a proton, you add oxygen
22:24:06 <Bike> kmc: gonna need to remember that next time i see "elegant" in programming.
22:24:11 <Fiora> I think burning here is a metahpor... xD
22:24:18 <kmc> one problem with these million near schemes is that civilization will probably collapse in the meantime
22:24:18 <Taneb> Which would get you Fluorine
22:24:22 <kmc> million year*
22:24:30 <Bike> kmc: see, that's why we need soft sci-fi!!
22:24:35 <Taneb> The most common isotope of Oxygen has 16 neutrons
22:24:39 <Fiora> soft scifi is cool too! I like soft scifi
22:24:57 <Bike> civilizational changes in the long term are often sadly neglected
22:25:03 <shachaf> what about victorian romance
22:25:10 <Bike> vinge was ok at it, weirdly
22:25:23 <Taneb> it decays into O-15
22:25:25 <Bike> in the future we don't have programmers, everything has software already so we just have archaelogists reverse engineering everything
22:25:40 <shachaf> hey y'all should i read _The Mote in God's Eye_ y/n
22:25:41 <kmc> that is pretty close to true already
22:25:58 <Taneb> Now, O-15 is also unstable, and it decays into N-15
22:26:00 <Fiora> yeeeesss the motie books are fun
22:26:13 <Bike> but that's the sort of thing i wonder about
22:26:26 <Bike> since in terms of millions of years, i mean, humans have only had civilization for a few thousand
22:26:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:26:48 <Bike> who knows what happens next. maybe disco could come back into fashion. anything's possible
22:26:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Guest96863.
22:27:02 <Taneb> So, burning protons gives you Nitrogen
22:27:12 -!- Guest96863 has quit (Changing host).
22:27:12 -!- Guest96863 has joined.
22:27:20 <Bike> " folk concepts of sexual anatomy in traditional cultures in Western science" ooh la la
22:27:28 -!- Guest96863 has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:27:54 <Fiora> kmc: but like yeah if I didn't actually post it here before
22:27:58 <Fiora> the electroweak star thing is cooool
22:28:00 <Taneb> Okay, how much did I suck at physics
22:28:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm better at physics than I am at, eg, Chemistry
22:28:46 -!- sacje has joined.
22:29:07 <Taneb> But when I have a physics problem I have a list of people to defer it to
22:29:15 <Taneb> I think you are pretty high up on the list
22:30:32 <Taneb> Anyway, I am off to bed now
22:30:35 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:30:55 <kmc> nathan van doom
22:31:08 <Bike> i wonder if western civilization will collapse and wikipedia will be like Natural History. or maybe it won't collapse, it'll just change gradually into something very different
22:31:18 <Bike> i guess that's what "collapse" is anyway
22:31:29 <kmc> we'll upload our brains into a 24/7 cyber orgy
22:31:40 <kmc> which will last until the power runs out or the computers break for some dumb reason
22:31:46 <kmc> then that will be the end of humankind
22:31:52 <Bike> been readin too much sci-fi
22:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> on the one hand, system shock 2 is only 5 and i am bored
22:32:04 <kmc> have you not played it?
22:32:12 <Bike> though that reminds me i should read uh
22:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> on the other hand, i don't think i have the nervous fortitude to play system shock 2
22:32:15 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: imo read non-banks
22:32:32 <Bike> that one neuroscientist who proposed wireheading and mind control for society
22:33:27 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: you could read, uh, the short stories book kmc was reading
22:34:06 <Bike> "Anthropology of Epidemic Disease and Bioterrorism" now that sounds fun
22:34:15 <Bike> maybe i could go sit in...
22:34:53 <Bike> "Anthropology of Life and Death" is one for the album names list
22:36:23 <shachaf> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949537745/armikrog
22:36:28 <shachaf> last chance for the $20 thing
22:37:19 <shachaf> assuming it gets funded........
22:40:04 <shachaf> kmc: there are actually several algorithms for it, but obviously people don't just blab about it
22:40:15 <shachaf> oh wait, i'm thinking of the discreet logarithm problem
22:40:35 <Bike> the discreet logarithm problem sounds fun
22:40:45 <Bike> go out to a strip club, do some logs on the fly
22:41:00 <shachaf> Bike: What's discreet, the logarithm or the problem?
22:41:12 <Bike> i don't know you said it
22:41:36 <shachaf> yes so you get to turn it from nonsense into something meaningful
22:41:49 <kmc> this is re https://twitter.com/pbarreto/status/347115211259514880 new algorithm for discrete logarithm problem
22:42:02 <shachaf> you lucky human-powered, pedal-driven, single-track vehicle, you
22:42:20 <Bike> ok well the logarithms being discreet is too obvious since that's like the whole point of crypto anyway
22:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how you never hear about discrete logarithm-based cryptography because it's so much harder to describe than primes
22:42:25 <Bike> so i guess it must be the problem itself
22:42:46 <Fiora> Isn't diffie-hellman discrete log?
22:42:59 <kmc> DH is so easy to describe
22:43:04 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Diffie-Hellman_Key_Exchange.svg I always found that bit easier to understand thatn like, RSA <.<
22:43:26 <Fiora> does this mean DH is broken? @_@
22:43:42 <Bike> wait, the ffrench for "abstract" is "resumé"?
22:43:50 <Bike> blowing my mind here
22:43:56 <kmc> doesn't it mean like "summary"
22:44:04 <Bike> yeah now that i think about it it must
22:44:08 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: um i don't think so
22:44:11 <Phantom_Hoover> is this what it's been for everyone else when i said unicode characters
22:44:22 <kmc> and "curriculum vitae" means like "life curriculum"? guessing
22:44:41 <Bike> kmc: probably "curriculum" means something else
22:44:55 <Bike> Fiora: only for small characteristic fields, and i don't know if DH does that
22:45:14 <Fiora> so like, their complexity argument fails for larger fields (?)
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22:45:51 <Bike> Fiora: i think it's exponentially slower the higher the characteristic
22:46:25 <HackEgo> MnOqY: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
22:46:39 <shachaf> no i asked for WeLcOmE not for wElCoMe
22:46:44 <shachaf> get it right HackEgo...........
22:47:07 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: it's basically like. alice and bob agree on a paint. they each add their secret colors to the paint, and trade the mixtures. then they add their secret color to the mixture they just got. now they both have the same paint again
22:47:23 <Bike> the weird thing is, it's possible to unmix paint.
22:47:26 <kmc> this is one of those analogies that works as long as you forget everything you know about paint
22:47:47 <kmc> Bike: chromatography for the win
22:48:28 <Bike> no, it's not chromatography
22:48:29 <kmc> i remember chromatographying some inks and paints as a kid
22:48:33 <Bike> olsner's actually got it, let me find a video
22:48:34 <kmc> with just like some paper
22:49:17 <Fiora> is that the thing you do with um... like, water climbing up the strips or whatever?
22:49:26 <olsner> Bike: if it's the video I'm thinking of, that's not paint they're mixing (and they don't mix it like paint is mixed either)
22:49:56 * Bike greps logs. "Mexican people don't eat sugar, especially when it's a mixture of lice and tiger DNA"
22:50:27 <olsner> fungot: do you eat lice and tiger DNA?
22:50:27 <fungot> olsner: oh good, i'm quite sure that's what you get when you fnord...
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22:52:00 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Whom_God_Should_Not_Have_Created:_Persians,_Jews,_and_Flies came up in the same log
22:52:26 <Bike> Aha, found the video!
22:52:27 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3YZ5veN_Bg
22:53:22 <Bike> but they're only selling science (probably, i don't watch this show)
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22:59:29 <olsner> if they say it's "never been done on tv" you can be pretty sure it's stupid
23:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: i attempt to find an IPA for 'vajradhara', fail miserably
23:01:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:01:43 <olsner> perhaps it's considered too obvious
23:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> you know where you are with consonants but the vowels are so fiddly
23:04:14 <Bike> fuckers with their alphabets
23:04:16 <Bike> abjads for all
23:04:24 <kmc> abadabadoo
23:07:49 <Bike> i think half the things i use my email for is password resets. i'm the least secure person ever
23:08:12 <kmc> the true single sign-on solution
23:08:49 <Bike> that's pretty much how i use it ;_;
23:10:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i do that but also i use the same three passwords for everything
23:11:31 <kmc> three > one
23:12:18 <Bike> i think i'd probably be better off if my passwords could all be quotes from books or something
23:12:23 <Bike> easier to remember than muscle memory
23:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah it kind of seems like that'd be more convenient and about as secure as littering numbers around the place
23:15:37 <Bike> it seems more likely that people will lose passwords to phishing than dictionary attacks anyway
23:16:30 <Bike> whatever, i'm not a security guy, can i just hire an intern to remember things for me
23:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i still have the three whom god etc. article open in a tab
23:21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how they bother making distinct racial charictures
23:21:29 <Bike> so, other question, why are they called "discrete logarithm" and "modular exponentiation"
23:21:40 <Bike> instead of both calling them modular (or both discrete, i guess)
23:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i note that regular logs still work in modular arithmetic
23:23:46 <Bike> do you mean thea algorithms or
23:24:02 -!- itsy has left.
23:24:58 <Bike> oh man school has an intro to xenobiology, though they don't call it that
23:25:21 <Bike> er, was it called "xenobiology" or "astrobiology", i forget
23:34:10 <oklopol> you can study astrobiology in turku
23:34:17 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i'm confused by what you mean though, like, modular exponentiation and exponentiation admit the same algorithms
23:35:16 <oklopol> http://www.nordicastrobiology.net/Turku.shtml
23:38:36 <oklopol> Bike: maybe it is because modular exponentiation is just exponentiation modulo p, while discrete logarithm has nothing (presumably) to do with the logarithm of the corresponding real number
23:39:05 <oklopol> but i agree with you, the terms should mirror each other
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23:45:02 <Sgeo> http://vanilla-js.com/
23:47:54 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:48:25 -!- Bike has joined.
23:50:30 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/duplicates/1gkw2j/vanilla_js_is_a_fast_lightweight_crossplatform/
23:50:33 <shachaf> you know what else is p. cool?
23:50:42 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
23:51:12 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/:/${@:+ }$@:/' bin/smlist
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23:58:13 <kmc> programmer. humor.
23:58:23 <kmc> how often do they have an argument about whether it should be ProgrammerHumour instead
23:58:52 <kmc> ProgrammeurHumeraux
23:59:21 <mnoqy> programmer humer....sounds bad
23:59:47 <Bike> i hope Programmer Humour is about the humour theory of personality
00:00:12 <Bike> it's like MBTI except basically t he same as MBTI
00:00:18 <Sgeo> http://www.dejavu.org/1995win.htm
00:01:21 <Fiora> but I like being an INFP
00:01:24 <Bike> Sgeo: that's the same theme as adequacy.org. makes u think
00:01:34 <Bike> Fiora: well i like being melancholic!!!!!
00:01:50 <Fiora> are you trying to be
00:03:22 * ion helps. hth
00:03:34 <kmc> in my mind it's like a cute innocent "what did i do" cat face
00:03:38 <kmc> i might be using it wrong
00:03:49 <mnoqy> it's a lot of things
00:03:50 <Bike> that's how i see it
00:04:06 <kmc> Thanks, Fiora. Theora.
00:04:18 <Bike> oh theora is that codec
00:04:27 <ion> Thanks, Fiora. H.264.
00:05:08 <Fiora> why is everyone saying thanks? @_@
00:05:18 <shachaf> Have you seen Look Around You?
00:05:19 <Fiora> kmc: no that's about right. I think
00:05:20 <kmc> because it's thanksgiving
00:05:24 <pikhq> Fiora: You need to see Look Around You.
00:05:25 <kmc> somewhere in the world
00:05:40 <shachaf> every day is thanksgiving in #esoteric
00:05:48 <Fiora> Bike: oh geez. that thanks thing just reminded me of this :/
00:05:49 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDajqW561KM
00:05:58 <pikhq> Thanks, giving. Thiving.
00:06:11 <shachaf> Fiora: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x68y4g_look-around-you-module-2-water_fun hth
00:06:21 <Fiora> I saw the calcium one
00:07:14 <Bike> Fiora: congratulations?
00:07:30 <Fiora> nooooo I'm not shinji
00:07:52 <shachaf> ew is that dubbed in english
00:07:54 <mnoqy> Bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KH2gc11XQU
00:07:56 <Bike> yeah, evangelion would be way improved by making Fiora the protagonist
00:08:30 <shachaf> lots of things would be improved by making Fiora the protagonist
00:08:42 <Bike> mnoqy: good, good
00:09:04 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you see the super mega update btw,,,, there was a super mega update
00:09:09 <mnoqy> shachaf: yes i saw
00:09:19 <shachaf> did you see it before or after i `smlisted
00:09:39 <Fiora> I don't think I'd do a good job in a shakespearean tragedy <_>
00:09:44 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:10:19 <Bike> do you think someone's made a parody of shakespeare with shaquille o'neill
00:10:25 <shachaf> mnoqy: the QUESTION is if you saw it before i `smlisted why didn't you tell me...................
00:10:40 <shachaf> Fiora: well if you were the protagonist it wouldn't be a tragedy hth
00:11:22 <shachaf> wait am i mixing macbeth up with another play
00:11:43 <Bike> how would we know
00:11:53 <Bike> macbeth is the one where macbeth kills everyone and then dies
00:12:02 <kmc> spoiler alert
00:12:16 <mnoqy> i hear macbeth is the one with macbeth in it
00:12:23 <kmc> The One Where Macbeth Kills Everyone
00:12:24 <Bike> that's like 80% of his tragedies anyway let's be real
00:12:28 <shachaf> isn't macbeth in all of them
00:12:42 <Bike> i should read titus andronicus
00:12:49 <Bike> sinc it's gorier than a tarantino film apparently
00:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> also i think macbeth was partly written as propaganda or something
00:13:25 <kmc> but do the characters stand around talking about fast food when they aren't murderkilling
00:14:05 <Bike> kmc: well they have monologues
00:14:12 <kmc> also have you seen http://www.runleiarun.com/lebowski/
00:14:32 <Bike> yeah. now if only shakespeare had a foot fetish
00:14:36 <shachaf> THE JOKE IS MONOMORPHISM AND EPIMORPHISM HTH
00:15:01 <Fiora> shachaf: I've actually played um. about two games where the protagonist is vaguely fiora-like? or at least kind of felt that way
00:15:29 <shachaf> Fiora: Or maybe you became those-games'-protagonists-like
00:15:53 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i know jack shit about shakespeare's performance. someone call an english major
00:16:08 <shachaf> Fiora: anyway lots of games are all about identifying with the protagonists and wish fulfillment and "all that jazz"
00:16:35 <Fiora> well, they were games with like, well-defined characters
00:16:36 <Bike> being driven out by horrible nerds, imo
00:16:38 <Fiora> as opposed to blankslateish ones
00:16:40 <Bike> Fiora: so what were the games
00:16:49 <Fiora> Bike: atelier ayesha and atelier totori, surppriiiseee
00:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, why are they both named after the french for workshop
00:17:14 <Fiora> I only spent like literally weeks fangirling or something
00:17:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: they're about alchemists.
00:17:27 <Fiora> atelier is a series where you play as an alchemist
00:17:29 <Bike> also "atelier" is used in english sometimes!!!
00:17:53 <shachaf> i could identify really identify with pac-man
00:18:00 <shachaf> a lot of character depth there imo hth
00:18:17 <Bike> the only characcters i identify with are terrible people
00:18:22 <Bike> maybe is hould play games with princesses
00:18:33 <Fiora> play atelier meruru! the protagonist is a princess
00:18:43 <mnoqy> truly pacman is representative of the human condition
00:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i never know if i'm identifying with characters or broad stereotypes
00:19:02 <kmc> "If Pac-Man had affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
00:19:35 <Fiora> I might be clinging to "characters who are vaguely similar" since I have so few options anyways :/
00:19:39 <Bike> oh! at orientation i saw a guy with a "Bazinga!" t-shirt.
00:19:47 <kmc> also do you know the reason it was renamed from "Puck-Man" for US release was because they realized every machine would immediately be vandalized to say "Fuck-Man"
00:20:03 <Bike> oh, was he named after pück
00:21:02 <kmc> "If [[Pac-Man]] had affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in [[rave|dark rooms]], munching [[MDMA|pills]] and listening to [[Electronic dance music|repetitive electronic music]]."
00:21:14 <kmc> i enjoy Wikipedia's "explain the joke" role
00:21:42 <Fiora> |{protagonists who are girls}| is small, |{protagonists who are girls}∩{protagonists who are quieter, shy, and/or less assertive}| is smaller
00:21:48 <kmc> blikipedia
00:22:06 <Bike> good use of set notation.
00:22:12 <Fiora> I am such a dork :/
00:22:23 <Bike> and yeah i was gonna say (re: "were they japanese") that you're not exactly Faith (nb. have not played mirror's edge)
00:22:45 <Fiora> I should totally play mirror's edge though
00:22:52 <Fiora> I actually like have it on steam from a summer sale for like a dollar or three
00:22:54 <Fiora> and I still haven't played it
00:23:03 <Fiora> but Radiant Historia is fun
00:23:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i do want to try the idea though, i love running around games
00:23:36 <Bike> i've never heard anything bad about mirror's edge really :/
00:23:41 <Fiora> I think opinion on it is kind of split? I've heard a lot of people kind of loved it
00:24:30 <Fiora> while others were like oh no it's not about shooting people!!! and you have to be a ~girl~ and they have cooties gosh no
00:24:42 <kmc> i hadn't read the version of Two Gentlemen of Lebowski that has footnotes explaining the "shakespearean" language
00:24:44 <Fiora> okay maybe I am being a bit too unfair <.<
00:24:45 <kmc> most excellent
00:24:49 <kmc> i played Mirror's Edge
00:24:59 <kmc> it's worth a dollar or three for sure
00:25:03 <Phantom_Hoover> the errant signal guy was pretty critical of the crowbarred shooting and i read this complete evisceration of the plot once
00:25:19 <kmc> i didn't finish it but i had some fun
00:25:19 <Bike> isn't the plot like, shiny 1984
00:25:22 <kmc> it can cause motion sickness
00:25:26 <Phantom_Hoover> hopefully for 2 they'll be given more creative control
00:25:40 <kmc> yeah it's set in some kind of ultra-clean dystopian police state
00:25:44 <kmc> like singapore lololol
00:25:51 <Bike> if mirror's edge 2 is more about the arab spring mode of protest that would be kinda cool
00:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i understand that it's not very obviously dystopian though
00:27:16 <Bike> isn't that like, the point of an ultra clean police state
00:27:37 <Fiora> if a flimsy plot doomed a game to be "eviscerated" I would expect like, every reviewer ever to eviscerate call of duty or something
00:27:38 <kmc> i think by chapter 2 or 3 the politicians are framing your friend for murder
00:27:52 <kmc> i don't remember exactly but uh, it seemed pretty obviously dystopian to me
00:28:07 <kmc> the whole conceit is that these badass parkour couriers exist because electronic communications are all tapped
00:28:15 <kmc> whatever, buy it, play it, don't puke
00:28:28 <kmc> but it's vastly more important that Phantom_Hoover buy System Shock 2
00:28:29 <Fiora> (this is kind of why I don't like game reviewers much, I kind of feel like they come up with an opinion of a game, and then create lots of justifications for why they didn't like it or liked it, after the fact)
00:28:34 <Bike> Fiora: call of duty's plot is hilarious though
00:28:40 <kmc> Fiora: yep! i feel that way about most reviews of things actually
00:28:45 <Bike> it's so much deeper than "russia invades so we can reenact the cold war"
00:28:53 <Fiora> it's the whole "~rationality~" thing of like
00:28:53 <Bike> and by deeper i mean lol
00:28:59 <kmc> Fiora: like every review of Season 4 of Community has to talk at length about how the show is Not The Same after Dan Harmon left
00:29:03 <Fiora> I am rational, so I use rationality and logic to justify my arbitrary personal feelings
00:29:03 <kmc> and it isn't
00:29:16 <kmc> but also it seems like they were going to say that no matter what
00:29:20 <Bike> "Did that seem confusing or vague? It did?" er not really
00:29:28 <Phantom_Hoover> reading good reviews of things you like is great though!
00:29:41 <Bike> "And come to think of it, does the government really have such a tight grip on everything that rebels can only communicate by snail mail transported by Cirque du Soleil? I mean, I’m no tech expert, but I’m pretty sure there’s some type of electronic communication that can’t be easily intercepted." i um
00:29:56 <Fiora> Bike: I still like. gosh, the parody xbox one presentation by that australian dude
00:30:26 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: man you live in a country where the police can arrest you for not giving up your keys :/
00:30:29 <Bike> Fiora: the what?
00:30:40 <kmc> Bike: i assume they can do that in most countries, with a valid subpoena
00:30:43 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KOxdMQhDMIU#t=2m45s
00:30:47 <Fiora> (just that 5 seconds)
00:30:56 <kmc> also HOLA NSA
00:31:28 <Bike> she said australian!
00:31:29 <kmc> i was reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_political_jokes yesterday
00:31:36 <kmc> there are some really fucking funny ones
00:31:39 <Fiora> my headcanon is that this is actually how everyone in the world sees american shooter game type things
00:31:58 <kmc> headcannon
00:32:07 <Fiora> oh. he's not? darnit <.<
00:32:25 <Bike> kmc: i meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000
00:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd almost forgotten about the english/australian confusion
00:32:31 <Bike> i don't think they need warrants for a lot of it
00:32:52 <Bike> but i don't live in the UK or know about it really.
00:32:56 <Bike> also: russian jokes own.
00:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> also recently i realised i can tell between australian and new zealand accents
00:33:32 <Bike> Fiora: oh lol that.
00:33:34 <kmc> me too although i don't know if i can tell 'real' ones or just stereotyped ones
00:33:45 <Fiora> "america's in trouble! and... guns."
00:34:03 <kmc> also I learned today that "to squizz" is .au english for "to look at / read / examine"
00:34:11 <kmc> sounds like something much more gross to me
00:34:38 <mnoqy> how do those australians do it
00:34:42 <Bike> «The principle of socialist economy of the period of transition to communism: the authorities pretend they are paying wages, workers pretend they are working. Alternately, "So long as the bosses pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work." This joke persisted essentially unchanged through the 1980s.» ok well that's depressing
00:34:43 <kmc> upside down
00:35:00 <kmc> communism: zero failure modes
00:35:36 <Bike> "No my friend, we will not live long enough to see communism, but our children... poor children"
00:35:58 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: how do I tell the difference between english and australian accents ._. and what about the english in australia and australians and england and agh
00:36:12 <mnoqy> "Communism was a humour-producing machine. Its economic theories and system of repression created inherently funny situations. There were jokes under fascism and the Nazis too, but those systems did not create an absurd, laugh-a-minute reality like communism."
00:36:21 <Bike> Three men sit in a jail in (KGB headquarters) Dzerzhinsky Square. The first asks the second why he has been imprisoned, and he says, "Because I criticized Karl Radek." The first man responds, "But I am here because I spoke out in favor of Radek!" They turn to the third man who has been sitting quietly in the back, and ask him why he is in jail too. He responds, "I'm Karl Radek."
00:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alternate between british comedies and something australian i guess
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00:38:26 <Fiora> Bike: http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sample/sample-3d41a11efe619c8899f6594ce6ab2242.jpg ooooh so that's the one this was referencing. I get it now
00:38:38 <Bike> this just reminds me that i know people who say 30s USSR was fantastic, blergh
00:39:05 <Bike> Fiora: wasn't that a parody of maoist PRC?
00:39:25 <Fiora> it was a two-part comic, the first part was the soviet union
00:39:30 <Fiora> the second part was maoist PRC
00:39:48 <Bike> oh 1953 was stalin's death
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00:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately i have now lost my familiarity with scottish accents
00:41:29 <Bike> aren't you scottish
00:42:11 <Bike> unrelatedly i'm watching a boardsofcanada promotional video that seems to be entirely static
00:43:20 <Bike> i guess that's the same as the albums
00:43:29 <kmc> 30s USSR was probably pretty good if you're an urban industrial worker and not being arbitrarily purged by stalin
00:44:07 <Bike> i guess. i'm guessing these jokes were popular, though...
00:45:18 <Bike> "Jokes about Khrushchev are often related to his attempts to reform the economy, especially to introduce maize. He was even called kukuruznik (maizeman)" it's weird how corn wasn't a thing in the old world, man
00:46:08 <kmc> it's weird how many european countries are associated with a national cuisine that couldn't exist in the pre-columbian era
00:46:17 <kmc> tomatoes in italy, potatoes in ireland
00:46:26 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years it's great how this sounds exactly like transhumanism
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00:46:37 <kmc> communism in 20 years, fusion power in 30
00:46:41 <Bike> kmc: according to my book on burma corn got so popular so fast that it is and was considered native
00:46:57 <kmc> they didn't have tobacco in old europe either
00:47:15 <Bike> "A follower of Sylvester Graham, the inventor of graham crackers and graham bread, Kellogg believed that spicy or sweet foods would increase passions." the invention of cornflakes
00:47:16 <kmc> Bike: meaning what
00:47:22 <kmc> yeah fuck that guy
00:47:45 <Bike> kmc: meaning if you asked a burmese farmer where corn came from they'd probably say their ancestors had been farming it for millenia.
00:47:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chute_tobacco.JPG tbh not sure what this guy is smoking is tobacco
00:47:48 <kmc> Bike: haha
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00:48:07 <Bike> i like how traditions are so often untraditional~
00:48:21 <kmc> corn is pretty cool. if you've invented nixtamalization i guess
00:48:27 <kmc> also how the fuck did people come up with stuff like that
00:48:40 <Bike> dude have you seen the grain corn evolved from?
00:48:43 <kmc> let's mix some lye and ash into this food and see if it becomes better
00:48:44 <Bike> i don't even know how people came up with corn
00:48:45 <kmc> good plan bro
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00:48:49 <kmc> Bike: which one is that
00:49:05 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Teosinte_Jalisco.jpg look at this shit!
00:49:08 <Bike> "yes, let's farm this"
00:49:33 <Bike> i'm just saying there was a fucking crazy mesoamerican agriculturalist back in the day
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00:50:23 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corncobs.jpg pretty
00:50:35 <Bike> (i haven't read it but) from what i understand anthropologists usually consider it to overemphasize geography (because, written by geographer) and they largely don't like geographic determinism, though they do think geography is important obviously
00:51:01 <Bike> and iirc his numbers on spread of different crops are basically pulled out of his ass.
00:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, each kernel is actually fertilised individually so you can actually use cobs as really neat demonstrations of mendelevian genetics
00:52:02 <Phantom_Hoover> there are even two sets of really obvious dominant/recessive traits
00:52:18 <Bike> one time my parents accidentally crossed edible corn and indian corn
00:52:26 <Bike> good demonstration of plant breeding (none of the result was edible)
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00:53:29 <Bike> it was just a backyard garden
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00:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> (are american farmers all the american version of posh?)
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00:54:25 <kmc> i lived down the street from the Pioneer Hybrid experimental corn farm
00:54:53 <Bike> well there's lots of kind of american farming, there's industrial farming and there's my neighbors, you know?
00:55:03 <Bike> i wouldn't describe either as posh
00:55:31 <kmc> in new hampshire and vermont it seemed like a lot of people had basically a suburban house with a small farm, near other suburban houses
00:55:33 <Bike> can you be posh if you know how to operate and repair combine harvesters
00:55:51 <kmc> bigger and more farm-shaped than what you would call a 'backyard garden' and they had some livestock too
00:55:57 <kmc> but not enough to live from solely
00:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> the only tory area in scotland is the one with lots of farmers and not much else
00:56:26 <kmc> you could buy eggs at the store and they would have a handwritten label saying whose chickens they came from and you could go there and say hi to the chickens probably
00:57:06 <kmc> whereas I grew up near a bunch of big industrial farms with buildings very far apart that can only be worked by expensive machines
00:57:28 <kmc> also the industrial pig lots
00:57:30 <kmc> smell fucking awful
00:58:08 <kmc> aiui pigs aren't really inherently dirty, but they aren't picky either
00:58:35 <Bike> i eat eggs from chickens that live in my backyard. am i posh
00:58:44 <kmc> that's p. cool
00:58:45 <kmc> how many do you have
00:58:59 <kmc> it's a middle class thing and also a yuppie thing
00:59:06 <kmc> how often do they lay
00:59:19 <Bike> they used to all lay once a day but they don't any more
00:59:22 <Bike> we're gonna slaughter 'em soon
00:59:50 <kmc> going to grow oyster mushrooms at the new place, not any chickens though probably
00:59:55 <Bike> «A frightened man came to the KGB. "My talking parrot disappeared." "This is not our case. Go to the criminal police." "Excuse me. Of course I know that I have to go to them. I am here just to tell you officially that I disagree with that parrot."»
00:59:56 <kmc> you need a rooster for that PH
01:00:00 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: roosters are the actual worst though
01:00:51 <kmc> you can't have a rooster in a (sub)urban area
01:01:19 <Bike> "My wife has been going to cooking school for three years." / "She must really cook well by now!" / "No, they've only reached the part about the Twentieth CPSU Congress so far."
01:01:28 <Bike> we're not suburban, we just don't want to deal with roosters >_>
01:01:38 <Bike> the neighbors' are already annoying enough
01:01:39 <kmc> how far is the nearest other house
01:02:04 <kmc> also you're in WA, are you going to start growing cannabis
01:02:08 <kmc> does the climate there support it
01:02:18 <Bike> i don't know where cannabis grows actually
01:02:23 <Bike> the climate here is basically: wet
01:02:28 <kmc> i have a video about how to grow weed indoor; it seems like a pretty fun project; I kind of wish I'd done it when I was in college and the risks were minimal
01:03:36 <Bike> Yeltsin's aide approaches him and says, "Mister President, two guests are here to see you: the Pope, and the director of the International Monetary Fund. Who shall I show in first?" Yeltsin thinks for a moment, then says: "Show in the Pope; at least I only have to kiss his ring."
01:04:05 <Fiora> bike, these are terrible
01:04:17 <Bike> mo like awesome
01:04:43 <kmc> yeah you can grow pot in WA i'm pretty sure
01:04:50 <Bike> kmc: i think the main obstacle to growing weed right now is that the licensing system isn't implemented yet
01:04:55 <kmc> a lot of it is grown in norcal (it's 1/3 of the economy in mendocino county)
01:05:04 <Bike> well, main legal obstacle
01:05:05 <kmc> and the #1 cash crop statewide
01:05:13 <kmc> http://www.nwpr.org/post/indoor-marijuana-grows-could-hamper-seattles-climate-change-goals
01:05:15 <Bike> wait. why did i even ask about the climate? they already grow tons of weed up the road
01:05:55 <Bike> kmc: that's like the most seattle thing i've ever seen.
01:06:04 <kmc> says outdoor grows are easier east of the cascades
01:06:15 <Bike> east of the cascades is basically all farms, so
01:07:01 <Bike> it's near-desert, the contrast with the west here is kinda neat.
01:09:33 <Bike> the school i'm going to is in the east too, it's farm school as fuck
01:11:52 <Bike> to get there i took this road: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Route_26 which had like three towns in seventy miles, which i took mostly at 100 mph
01:16:54 <kmc> http://labs.spotify.com/2013/06/18/creative-usernames/
01:20:45 <Bike> 8but do they support SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW?
01:22:41 <Bike> wow, that's a nasty attack
01:23:56 <shachaf> kmc: did you read the hunting of the snark
01:24:10 <Bike> can you even reliably fold case across languages
01:24:13 <shachaf> should i paste 12 lines of it in here........................ y/n
01:24:16 <Bike> that seems lie it might be intractable
01:24:37 <Bike> that;s a lot of lines
01:25:19 <Bike> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Case_folding#Turkish_i.2FI_etc. that doesn't seem hard
01:25:34 <Bike> i guess this is called "normalization", oops
01:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems like the least hassle would just be having people pick an account and display name separately and make the account name publicly accessible
01:27:07 <Bike> that paper i read on burmese unicode involved things like using zero-width spaces to mark syllable boundaries... optionally
01:27:22 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: and the account name has to be ascii?
01:27:34 <kmc> that's what twitter does i guess
01:28:06 * kmc wonders what kind of awesome username he would pick on a site that forced Cyrillic usernames
01:28:16 <Bike> give everyone a meaningless ID number, and then have a displayed name?
01:28:28 <Bike> kmc: i call "Кракозя́бры"
01:28:36 <kmc> Bike: but when you log in you need to provide some ID
01:28:56 <Bike> make people remember the number ("but that sucks" "so does everything")
01:29:10 <shachaf> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13/13-h/13-h.htm hth
01:29:15 <Sgeo> Bike, that's what AW does... not for a particularly good reason though, Unicode names weren't supported until 5.0
01:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> for people who just flat out don't know ascii you could have a 'create random name' button and tell them to remember it
01:30:02 <Bike> so same as mine.
01:30:02 <kmc> Bike: shitty UX
01:30:05 <kmc> user xperience
01:30:25 <shachaf> He had bought a large map representing the sea, / Without the least vestige of land: / And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be / A map they could all understand. "What's the good of Mercator's North Poles and Equators, / Tropics, Zones, and Meridian Lines?" / So the Bellman would cry: and the crew would reply / "They are merely conventional signs!
01:30:27 <kmc> sorry but consumer apps will always choose the pleasant UX over the move that theoretically makes certain security holes go away
01:30:30 <Bike> it's like, i already have my SSN and uni ID# memorized, why not pile more onto that
01:30:31 <shachaf> "Other mps are such shapes, with teheir islands and capes! / But we've got our brave Captain to thank:" / (So the crew would protest) "that he's bought us the best— / A perfect and absolute blank!"
01:30:41 <Bike> oh and my phone number i guess
01:30:45 <Bike> basically i hate everything.
01:30:46 <shachaf> two lines got merged into one line "sry"
01:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> (are there keyboards without ascii readily accessible on them?)
01:31:22 <Bike> the whole of ascii?
01:31:26 <Bike> i can't type control characters
01:31:36 <shachaf> That's what the Control key is for.
01:31:56 <shachaf> oerjan: ban Phantom_Hoover hth
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01:32:15 <kmc> well 'latin' could include a lot of diacritis and stuff
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01:32:21 <kmc> or just all of ISO-8859-1
01:32:42 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: but yeah if you have a turkish keyboard or whatever and you don't need "c" it's not gonna be obviously there
01:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ofc. if you're going to be a pedant that still includes non-ascii characters
01:33:31 <Bike> i think japanese keyboards maybe usually only allow fullwidth input i dunno
01:33:56 <kmc> i still have a 40 bit WEP key from 2005 memorized
01:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:800px-KB_Thai_Kedmanee.png
01:34:11 <shachaf> I still have a list of words from third grade memorized.
01:34:44 <Bike> Maybe this problem would be better attacked by psychologists...
01:34:56 <Bike> have them figure out what can be (a) easily typed (b) easily remembered (c) not easily guessed?
01:35:12 <shachaf> binyan chevel matos orev falafel bateriyot kfitz dam nechashim chol maghetz prachim shvil yeled savta
01:35:27 <shachaf> I bet every classmate I had in third grade remembers that list.
01:35:32 <Bike> well that's for passwords since that's what i was complaining about earlier.
01:35:47 <Bike> Oh, on that note. I got my password reset! I called in and recited my ID# and birthdate.
01:36:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (do unicode passwords end up being messy? i mean i can't see there being any problems)
01:36:21 <kmc> WEP is so bad
01:36:36 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: there's a lot of potential for false negatives on the password check
01:36:39 <Bike> is WEP the one that's super easily crackable
01:36:46 <Bike> i always get it confused with WPA
01:36:52 <kmc> you have to normalize to prevent that
01:37:02 <kmc> and users might still include invisible characters by mistake
01:37:09 <kmc> Bike: yeah it's the one
01:37:17 <kmc> they used RC4 with a 24 bit IV
01:37:20 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i'm working on the assumption that people probably aren't going to use crazy alternate glyphs for their own passwords
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01:37:25 <kmc> "For a 24-bit IV, there is a 50% probability the same IV will repeat after 5000 packets."
01:37:32 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: they might use different computers and different input modes though
01:37:36 <Bike> yeah that was pretty great.
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01:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> how much scope for difference is there with input modes
01:37:54 <Bike> For instance, in ISO 8859-1 the letter 'ç' can only be represented as the single character E7 'ç', but in a Unicode encoding it can be represented as the single character U+00E7 'ç' or the sequence U+0063 'c' U+0327 '¸'. In HTML it could be additionally represented as ç or ç or ç (five equivalent representations in total).
01:38:03 <Bike> This is in the web report on normalization; seems like a pretty good example
01:38:17 <shachaf> isn't that 1.2 * sqrt n thing p. great
01:38:38 <kmc> is this a fake logarithm
01:39:15 <shachaf> It's the birthday probability thing for a 50% chance of collision when there are N days.
01:39:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: round trip compatibility with legacy encodings
01:39:50 <kmc> this design goal is perhaps regrettable, but it's very useful sometimes
01:39:59 <Bike> what's it useful for
01:40:04 <shachaf> I don't remember the exact derivation...
01:40:04 <kmc> for example it means your programming language can have a single type for "text", and only think about encodings on input and output
01:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> more useful than computer manipulation of some characters being ridiculously fiddly?
01:40:40 <kmc> compared to (say) ruby where the bytes making up a string are observable, and the encoding is stored as metadata that can be inaccurate
01:41:03 <shachaf> Ruby 1.9 is much better than 1.8 about things.
01:41:17 <Bike> i'm not sure you could handle "text" generically in any way that isn't fiddly as hell
01:41:24 <kmc> aren't the cool kids using 2.0 now
01:41:37 <Sgeo> Did Ruby do the dumb thing and kill call/cc yet?
01:41:45 <kmc> yeah I have to imagine you would need some notion of normalization even without the legacy encoding design goal
01:41:52 <kmc> for example what about the order in which combining chars are applied
01:42:01 <Bike> ooh that was in the burma thing too.
01:42:10 <shachaf> Ruby killed callcc and then brought it back,
01:42:15 <Bike> the normalization scheme involved the pagelong regex i mentioned eariler.
01:44:10 <Bike> "an EBCDIC style sheet being directly applied to an ASCII document, or a font specification in a Shift_JIS style sheet directly used on a system that maintains font names in UTF-16" the horror......
01:44:52 <kmc> i like the hacks where XSS sanitization becomes ineffective if you convince the user to switch their browser to Shift-JIS
01:45:05 <kmc> if an attacker does, I mean
01:45:42 <Bike> have we considered, like, abandoning the concept of writing
01:45:44 <Bike> for security reasons
01:46:15 <shachaf> remember the stripe ctf thing where we had different solutions
01:46:35 <Bike> we can just communicate with hand gestures and grunting
01:46:38 <shachaf> mine was embedding </script> inside some json text
01:47:01 <shachaf> i don't remember your solution
01:47:14 <shachaf> was your solution the fact that there was a bug in the ctf and it just gave you a cookie with secret information
01:47:31 <Bike> imo we should consider it.
01:47:42 <kmc> that was my solution shachaf
01:47:57 <kmc> i didn't know about the </script> trick at the time
01:48:05 <shachaf> you solved three levels that way right
01:48:13 <kmc> i don't think so
01:48:22 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: we have robust security protocols for dealing with that though! (shooting them)
01:48:23 <kmc> i think that was the only one where I didn't get the "right" solution
01:48:23 <shachaf> they mentioned that three levels had that bug
01:48:36 <kmc> it's super effective
01:48:50 <Bike> i wonder if "..." -> "…" could count as normalization
01:48:53 <shachaf> do you identify with the main character in unicode
01:49:11 <shachaf> do you identify with the main character in main is usually a function
01:49:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: entrapment!!
01:50:08 <shachaf> Menlo Park, CA, United States 06/18/2013 6:27 A.M.Out For Delivery
01:50:16 <shachaf> where are my books..........did they die
01:50:47 <Bike> «In some of the following examples, '¸' is used to depict the character U+0327 combining cedilla, for the purposes of illustration. Had a real U+0327 been used instead of this spacing (non-combining) variant, some browsers might combine it with a preceding 'c', resulting in a display indistinguishable from a U+00E7 'ç' and a loss of understandability of the examples. In addition, if the sequence c + combining cedilla were present, ...
01:50:53 <Bike> ... this document would not be include-normalized.» help
01:50:56 <Bike> shachaf: what books
01:51:17 <shachaf> they're full of things that never actually happened
01:51:54 <shachaf> unless they're double-fictional
01:52:05 <shachaf> kmc: Did you switch to tmux yet?
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01:57:20 <copumpkin> http://www.bitpremier.com/items/view/37
01:58:27 <kmc> shachaf: i switched, now i've switched back to screen mostly
01:58:31 <kmc> because screen stopped segfaulting
01:58:52 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know about that
01:58:56 <kmc> will ask a friend one sec
01:59:15 <shachaf> kmc: but what about 1D74F MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC PARTIAL DIFFERENTIAL [𝝏]
01:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> apparently the protein content makes them useless for it
01:59:43 <shachaf> 1D7C7 MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC PHI SYMBOL [𝟇]
01:59:56 <shachaf> 1D7A5 MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL PHI [𝞥]
02:00:10 <Bike> what have you wrought, unicode.
02:00:17 <Bike> why is it not CAPITAL PHI SYMBOL
02:00:19 <Bike> so many questions
02:01:20 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: she thinks it's unlikely
02:01:29 <shachaf> people who stick those stickers on the backs of books.....................
02:01:51 <kmc> mushrooms don't contain much carbohydrates and when they do, it's usually something like trehalose that generally can't be digested
02:02:05 <kmc> copumpkin: not yet; leaving next thursday
02:02:22 <kmc> what happened in df
02:02:36 <Sgeo> Someone posted a huge thing about it in the subreddit?
02:02:48 <shachaf> copumpkin: You should come visit!
02:02:50 <copumpkin> kmc: already have a job or gonna look for one there?
02:02:52 <Bike> shachaf: the worst
02:02:52 <kmc> sounds like they are sometimes used as additives in beer
02:02:53 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that ruins it, but hey
02:02:58 <kmc> copumpkin: I'm going to be working at Mozilla
02:03:00 <copumpkin> shachaf: I'd love to :P competing interests
02:03:03 <kmc> working on Servo, the new browser written in Rust
02:03:08 <kmc> should be fun times
02:03:13 <Bike> new browser huh
02:03:22 <Bike> what part will you be working on, do you know
02:03:37 <kmc> Bike: yeah, well, it's just a new rendering engine for now, and they've just progressed to the point where you can, like, click on links
02:03:40 <kmc> so it's still early days
02:03:40 <shachaf> is it big enough that people are working on "parts"
02:03:55 <kmc> but they are pretty serious about it eventually being a real thing
02:04:11 <kmc> shachaf: I think I'm like the second or third full time paid employee working on Servo specifically
02:04:16 <kmc> most of the dev to date has been done by the Rust team
02:04:24 <kmc> also it's all open source so they have various others contributing
02:04:32 <kmc> a bunch of people at Samsung are contributing to Rust and Servo now
02:04:52 <coppro> also why does kmc have +v
02:05:00 <kmc> seized it in a bloodless coup
02:05:06 <kmc> (all stranglings)
02:05:11 <coppro> I feel like this is unhfairly discriminating against mutes
02:05:18 <kmc> coppro: what do you think of rust
02:05:29 <coppro> kmc: I think it needs to actually be thought about
02:05:32 <coppro> rather than just built
02:06:52 <kmc> mozilla seems like a fantastic place to work
02:07:16 <kmc> also they pay... quite well, especially for being a non-profit
02:09:21 <Bike> the google mafia
02:09:55 <kmc> google pays them mad cash to have google be the default search engine in firefox
02:10:06 <Bike> soon capitalism will be replaced by the "get google to pay you" economy
02:10:10 <kmc> basically yes
02:10:23 <kmc> that's most of their revenue yeah
02:10:33 <kmc> they have similar partnerships with other search engines in other countries
02:10:35 <kmc> i know right?
02:10:36 <copumpkin> don't they employ hundreds of devs?
02:10:53 <shachaf> On 20 December 2011 Mozilla announced that the contract was once again renewed for at least three years to November 2014, at three times the amount previously paid, or nearly US$300 million annually.[11][12] Approximately 85% of Mozilla’s revenue for 2006 was derived from this contract.
02:10:59 <kmc> in their recent deal with google they got 3x the previous rate, thanks to a bidding war between google and msft
02:11:08 <kmc> yeah they have over 600 employees total
02:11:11 <kmc> and like a dozen really nice offices
02:11:13 <Bike> totally stable business model, there
02:11:38 <kmc> the current contract is locked in until november 2014
02:11:43 <kmc> and they think that if google stops paying, they can get other companies easily
02:11:48 <kmc> unless FF market share takes a nosedive of course
02:11:52 <kmc> so they care a lot about that ;P
02:11:56 <shachaf> does opera make any money that way
02:11:58 <copumpkin> I see why google's putting a lot of weight behind chrome :)
02:12:09 <Bike> where's google get its revenue anyway. is it ads like seems obvious or do they sacrifice children or what
02:12:13 <kmc> mostly ads
02:12:23 <kmc> or so they say... could be laundering money from child sacrifices
02:13:09 <copumpkin> I pay good money to watch gruesome child-death
02:13:40 <kmc> google's whole business model is about providing services to get more people on the web, and giving stuff away for free so that nobody else can charge for it
02:13:41 <shachaf> copumpkin: no more than five dola
02:13:53 <kmc> because they are the best at ads
02:14:00 <Bike> kmc: that sounds really cynical when you put it that way
02:14:06 <kmc> they don't care if you use gmail or some other webmail that also serves google ads ;P
02:14:16 <kmc> Bike: *shrug* google gotta get paid
02:14:23 <kmc> can't fault them for being a for profit company
02:14:32 <Bike> i mean it's not surprising, i just hadn't thought of it that way
02:15:11 <kmc> this is why they made Android; Apple was on the way to a smartphone monopoly, and if they had that monopoly they could start to undermine Google's whole deal
02:15:19 <kmc> because the Apple model is about paying for content in a walled garden
02:15:47 <kmc> I mean if Apple had such a monopoly they could chip away at the very idea that search and maps etc. should be ubiquitous free services
02:16:21 <Bike> what if a company comes around with a model based on ads being a free service
02:17:00 <shachaf> Petronius the Arbiter is a good name for a cat.
02:18:22 <shachaf> While still a kitten, all fluff and buzzes, Pete had worked out a simple philosophy. I was in charge of quarters, rations, and weather; he was in charge of everything else. But he held me especially responsible for weather. Connecticut winters are good only for Christmas cards; regularly that winter Pete would check his own door, refuse to go out it because of that unpleasant white stuff beyond it (he was no fool), then badger me to open a ...
02:18:31 <shachaf> He had a fixed conviction that at least one of them must lead into summer weather. Each time this meant that I had to go around with him to each of eleven doors, hold it open while he satisfied himself that it was winter out that way, too, then go on to the next door, while his criticisms of my mismanagement grew more bitter with each disappointment.
02:19:14 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> doom <Bike> YES <Bike> oh no
02:19:18 <HackEgo> 1054) <kmc> doom <Bike> YES <Bike> oh no
02:21:15 <kmc> Bike: haha Google Royale
02:21:30 <kmc> that reminds me I should watch The Internship, that terrible movie / 2 hour ad for Google that came out recently
02:22:01 <shachaf> have you considered all the alternatives you have to watching it
02:22:24 <Bike> what's it about
02:22:31 <Bike> beyond "an internship" i guess
02:23:09 <kmc> it's about two old guys who have to compete with a bunch of Kids These Days for an internship at google
02:23:10 <Bike> pun on Battle Royale
02:23:22 <Bike> which is a japanese movie about kids killing each other
02:23:34 <Bike> your mom is the opposite of a pun
02:28:27 <Sgeo> Do there, in fact, exist programmers that know what they're doing?
02:28:27 <Bike> so i just realized that STEM means basically nothing. how do i deal with this
02:28:34 <Bike> nobody knows what they're doing
02:28:37 <Bike> people don't know things
02:28:39 <Bike> folk psychology
02:28:44 <kmc> i know what i'm doing
02:28:49 <kmc> but also so do most people, roughly
02:29:04 <Bike> the two sides of the debate
02:29:11 <kmc> the truth is in the middle
02:29:39 <coppro> kmc: no the truth is obviously to one side
02:29:43 <coppro> (try applying your doctrine now, hah)
02:30:07 <kmc> the truth is in the 1/4 or 3/4 position
02:30:19 <Sgeo> The truth has an asymtotic curve towards one side.
02:31:43 <Bike> the truth doesn't make sense
02:31:54 <kmc> you can't handle the truth
02:32:24 <Sgeo> Truth is center, truth is a side, truth is somewhere between those two except it's to one side, so let's go between those except it's to a side, so...
02:32:40 <Bike> is that a song lyric
02:33:15 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that this entire conversation was silly...
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02:53:06 <kmc> if you're moving to California you have to inspect all of your stuff for gypsy moths
02:53:38 <kmc> this didn't happen the first time I moved to California
02:54:06 <Bike> haven't they always been strict about invasives? when we drove down there a couple years ago they stopped us at the border to search for oranges
02:59:02 <kmc> szechuan pepper used to be banned for import to the US because it can carry a citrus disease
03:13:42 <shachaf> How thorough is the inspection?
03:14:02 <kmc> it's a self-inspection
03:14:04 <Bike> we had to open containers and stuff
03:14:32 <kmc> also it's not everything, they have a checklist mostly of stuff that is stored outside, camping gear, things like that
03:18:39 <kmc> Bike: what do you mean by "STEM means basically nothing"
03:18:56 <Bike> well, what's it supposed to include?
03:19:33 <kmc> science, technology, engineering, and math
03:19:58 <kmc> there are some grey areas, that doesn't mean it's meaningless
03:20:04 <kmc> that's a very STEM attitude ;)
03:20:20 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
03:20:21 <Bike> hardy har. But I mean, the NSF and others define it differently, etc
03:21:51 <kmc> yeah but their definitions are not totally divergent right
03:22:15 <Bike> one's a subset of the other, i guess
03:22:41 <kmc> did this observation come out of a more specific inconsistency between them?
03:23:12 <Bike> well, the reason i was thinking about it is that computational neuroscience counts me as STEM at school, even though i don't think biosciences generally do
03:23:21 <kmc> programming is cool because it's variously considered S, T, E, or M and people will argue forever about which it is
03:23:27 <kmc> how is bioscience not science
03:23:33 <Bike> hell if i know
03:23:40 <kmc> that's very weird
03:23:43 <kmc> who says it isn't?
03:23:59 <Fiora> maybe it's because of that thing where like, "STEM" tends to mean whatever the speaker thinks of as ~real sciences for real men~ type of thing
03:24:05 <kmc> "The NSF uses a broader category to define STEM subjects which includes subjects in the fields of Chemistry, Computer and Information Technology Science, Engineering, Geosciences, Life Science..."
03:24:42 <kmc> after all bioscience can't be nearly as hard as building daily deals sites in rails
03:24:43 <Bike> US ICE doesn't list straight biology as STEM, looks like
03:25:01 <Fiora> like is sociology a STEM?
03:25:03 <Fiora> I mean it's science
03:25:07 <Fiora> is psychology science enough?
03:25:30 <Bike> NSF and ICE list it
03:25:34 <Fiora> or economics? I mean that's math, right? it's like. where do you draw the line?
03:25:47 <Bike> (man why does the DHS even have this list. immigration policy is so fucked)
03:25:56 <kmc> Bike: i know right
03:26:14 <kmc> "welp you got your degree and could start a lucrative business now so GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE COUNTRY"
03:26:27 <Bike> "Digital Communication and Media/Multimedia" is STEM
03:26:39 <kmc> i don't really have an opinion on whether social science should be included in "STEM"
03:26:41 <kmc> i just... don't care
03:26:57 <Bike> well mostly i think that like, the whole policy it's based around is pretty stupid regardless
03:27:12 <kmc> it depends on context i'm sure. like people often talk about getting young kids interested in STEM, and in that case it's more about some fundamental skills that are applicable in lots of fields
03:27:15 <Bike> like what's the idea? we need more engineers but not more doctors so let's put more money into engineering education?
03:27:16 <kmc> like, you know, math
03:27:24 <kmc> and about making it seem exciting
03:27:43 <kmc> Bike: what's wrong with that kind of government policy
03:27:56 <kmc> if you think their reasoning for needing more engineers is wrong, that's one thing
03:28:07 <Bike> well it might work if you were more specific, but just science in general seems pretty vague?
03:28:15 <Bike> you could just fund postsecondary education at that point
03:28:26 <kmc> there are a lot of things that are clearly not STEM
03:28:41 <kmc> 'molecular gastronomy'
03:28:49 <Bike> wow they list four different "Computer Programming" programs
03:28:51 <kmc> i hear that term was invented to secure space at a scientific conference
03:29:00 <Bike> Fiora: no, but food science is
03:29:30 <Bike> no idea, this just has names
03:29:57 <Bike> Ceramic Sciences and Engineering
03:30:06 <Bike> (this is all the list for immigration)
03:30:24 <Bike> aw yiss they list mechatronics. i need to get in on that
03:31:22 <shachaf> `welcome Gracenotes to california
03:31:24 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: to: california: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:31:25 <Bike> Packaging Science. ?????
03:31:35 <shachaf> There. That's how you welcome people!
03:32:12 <Bike> What do air, cars, laptops, plants, knee-replacements and lunch have in common? They all can be and are packaged! Students majoring in packaging science learn all about the design, engineering, science, innovation, research and business that make up this diverse industry. For more then 20 years, Clemson has been thinking outside of the box and producing career-ready graduates who are ready to solve the problems of tomorrow. Clemson is ...
03:32:18 <Bike> ... one of just seven schools in the U.S. that offer a degree in packaging science. Our program is unique as it blends together biology, chemistry and physics so when you graduate you can fill a need within industry. Since this is a very hands-on major, you’ll get to work with package design and graphics, food and health care packaging and advanced materials.
03:32:51 <kmc> "outside of the box" I GET IT
03:33:08 <Bike> that's the kind of thinking you'll learn in this program, kmc
03:33:30 <Gracenotes> Amazon hired package scientists to design its new ecofriendly packaging tape, I'm sure
03:33:36 <Bike> i wonder what the hell biology has to do with it though.
03:33:50 <Bike> like... dealing with rotting, maybe?
03:34:02 <Bike> i like how WHITE SQAURE is black on my terminal
03:34:42 <Bike> Strategic Intelligence is STEM... that sounds like a military thing
03:34:56 <Bike> General Intelligence is too and i have no idea what that is. can you major in being smart?
03:35:27 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/ggZ5yAJ.png ok when it comes down to it, I'm a pretty immature guy
03:36:01 <shachaf> What do you call a function when for any x there's some n such that f^n(x) = f^{n+1}(x)?
03:36:05 <Bike> really need to petition for combining penis again
03:36:34 <Bike> hm, good question.
03:37:49 <kmc> Bike: character is already in use http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07022008
03:38:56 <Bike> all i can think is that it's not continuous which isn't really helpful
03:39:23 <Bike> kmc: i'll start the petition right away
03:39:34 <kmc> so iterating on every input eventually reaches a fixed point?
03:39:38 <kmc> rather than some kind of cycle
03:39:45 <kmc> or infinitely flying off somewhere
03:39:58 <kmc> there's probably a term for this in chaos theory / dynamical systems
03:40:03 <kmc> that's where i would look anyway
03:40:55 <Bike> yeah it's sort of like a limit set but not
03:42:05 <shachaf> "eventually idempotent" is a term that comes to mind...
03:42:48 <shachaf> Oh, apparently someone else has used that term, too.
03:43:00 <shachaf> http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~phorum/pdf/roa_823.pdf
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03:54:03 <Bike> shachaf: i checked with a dynamics guy and he couldn't think of a special term for it...
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03:55:50 <shachaf> I will continue to use "eventually idempotent", then.
03:56:13 <Bike> yeah, seems descriptive enough.
03:57:39 <kmc> seems good except in a setting where you already have an important notion of time
03:57:54 <Bike> Maybe you could say that there aren't any cycles of period > 1.
03:58:30 <kmc> that is necessary but not sufficient for an infinite codomain
03:58:42 <Bike> oh, duh, yeah.
03:58:55 <kmc> i made the same mistake :)
03:59:30 <kmc> oh, biodegradable packaging :)
03:59:54 <kmc> is what biology has to do with packaging science
04:00:00 <Bike> yeah that's what i was thinking
04:00:15 <shachaf> kmc: model checking is "p. cool huh"
04:00:37 <kmc> shachaf: i think so, haven't done any in a long time tho
04:00:54 <mnoqy> keep-the-food-fresh packaging "the biology is for what the heck is that food doing in there what makes it spoil"
04:01:02 <kmc> have you looked at Alloy? http://alloy.mit.edu/alloy/
04:01:07 <kmc> it's like model checking but not
04:01:09 <kmc> interesting stuff
04:01:16 <mnoqy> ??model checking but not??
04:01:19 <shachaf> kmc: a monad is like a biodegradable package hth
04:02:18 <kmc> imo all packaging should come pre-inoculated with oyster mushroom spawn
04:02:54 <Sgeo> Apparenty, PHP is case-insensitive for functions, but case-sensitive for variables.
04:03:00 <shachaf> or maybe a monad is like a room where the walls keep moving in and you can't escape and you get crushed
04:03:06 <shachaf> why am i doing the thing i hate
04:03:12 <Bike> Sgeo: probably so that constants work?
04:03:34 <kmc> Sgeo: hilarious
04:03:44 <Bike> i.e. somebody really wanted a variable called $_post
04:04:08 <kmc> imo death to php
04:04:28 <shachaf> Why is my keyboard producing double letters?
04:04:36 <shachaf> It started when I spilled some liquid in it.
04:04:44 <shachaf> I think? I never noticed it before.
04:04:50 <Sgeo> I mean, I don't have an opinion in the great case-insensitive vs case-sensitive debate, but I think straddling the line is probably the worst of the options
04:04:53 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm making things up.
04:05:10 <Sgeo> Is there a name for the golden mean fallacy applied in the situation where the mean is in fact the worst possible option?
04:05:19 <shachaf> Sgeo: very courageous of you to suggest that php does something badly
04:05:51 <kmc> Sgeo: i would describe that result as 'worst of both worlds' but that doesn't specifically invoke the fallacy
04:06:45 <Sgeo> kmc, that phrase also implies that it's the negative features of each side that are prominent, when it's really just the inconsistency
04:07:19 <kmc> 'shifting the overton window in programming languages' would be a good title for probably a bad article
04:07:26 <Sgeo> Also, there has to be something worse. Maybe case-sensitive if compilation starts on an even second of the minute, case-insensitive otherwise?
04:08:43 <kmc> it could be an interesting article but i don't have any ideas on how to actually do that so i won't write it
04:10:14 <shachaf> what are some good non-functor types to give to CoYoneda
04:14:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Is'
04:14:11 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `In' (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
04:14:28 <Bike> wait that was dumb. oh well
04:14:31 <kmc> is that your leibniz equality thing agai
04:14:43 <shachaf> well it doesn't matter here
04:14:49 <shachaf> @let data Is a b where Refl :: Is a a
04:14:49 <lambdabot> Parse failed: GADTs is not enabled
04:14:54 <shachaf> elliott...................
04:15:06 <shachaf> @let data Is a b = (a ~ b) => Refl
04:15:06 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeFamilies is not enabled
04:15:12 <shachaf> elliott..........................................................
04:15:36 <shachaf> Yes, it's Leibniz equality.
04:15:44 <kmc> by elimination :)
04:15:54 <shachaf> @let newtype Is a b = Is { subst :: forall p. p a -> p b }
04:15:54 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled
04:16:04 <shachaf> elliott..............................................................................................................................................................................
04:16:23 <Bike> you already knew typeoperators wasn't enabled.
04:16:39 <kmc> what does TypeOperators have to do with it?
04:16:42 <shachaf> I wasn't using TypeOperators. I was using RankNTypes.
04:16:48 <shachaf> I think it isn't seeing forall as a keyword.
04:16:53 <shachaf> (And instead seeing . as an operator.)
04:16:54 <Bike> i thought you used it before, o well
04:17:07 <kmc> try ∀ instead, hth
04:18:24 <kmc> what language uses LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH DOUBLE GRAVE
04:19:12 <kmc> more like, the joke is dire
04:19:25 <kmc> has shachaf finally snapped? tune in next week
04:19:29 <mnoqy> theres a double joke whereby "hth" is a dead horse (RIP)
04:22:57 <kmc> when does a monqy become a mnoqy
04:28:20 <Bike> where the heck other than the US do you have a program in "Joint Command Task Force Systems"; relatedly i'm feeling pretty bitter how much of the immigration "STEM" is military
04:28:54 <kmc> i bet in german they have a single word for that
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04:29:10 <Bike> there's also "Undersea Warfare" which is definitely onewordgermanic
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04:46:52 <shachaf> (I was originally wondering about the idempotence thing because of that creative-usernames thing, for what it's worth.)
05:04:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome´: not found
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05:12:54 <Bike> «For example, finding all occurences of «homogenos» [sic] allowing two errors in a one megabyte bibliographic text takes about 0.4 seconds on a SUN SparcStation II, which is about twice as fast as running the program egrep (which will not find anything because of the misspelling)» programmers sure are cheeky sometimes
05:13:08 <Bike> «We actually used this example and found a misspelling in our text.»
05:20:45 <mnoqy> sun sparcstation ii..sounds aight..
05:21:08 <Bike> fastest chip in the west
05:21:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: what does "aight" mean
05:21:22 <Bike> a(lr)ight with a sexy accent
05:21:42 <shachaf> what does "a(lr)ight" mean
05:24:28 <Bike> what does anything mean
05:28:19 <kmc> alalr(1)ight
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06:54:20 <fizzie> Hey, I remember reading that thing. From agrep something, right?
07:08:56 <kmc> 'more of a ptrace bug imo'
07:10:17 <shachaf> 'but mmap is shorter than ptrace and communicated what i meant just as well'
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07:10:27 <shachaf> 'which was "a bug involving mmap", not "a bug in mmap"'
07:10:28 * kmc wonders if the freebsd ptrace interface is saner than the linux one
07:10:33 <kmc> iirc os x's is even worse
07:10:34 <shachaf> these savings are now wasted on this metadiscussion
07:11:06 <shachaf> In OS X ptrace can't do half the things you want it to, right?
07:11:11 <shachaf> So there's some Mach-specific API.
07:11:11 <kmc> someone was telling me how OS X doesn't (or didn't) provide a way to ptrace the child after a fork
07:13:08 <shachaf> would unboxed sum types improve ghc
07:13:51 <kmc> would unboxed lazy vectors improve ghc
07:14:02 <Bike> how do you do unboxed lazy?
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07:28:14 <shachaf> imagine a function that e.g. returns a Maybe not actually allocating anything
07:28:42 <Bike> what a wonderful world such would be
07:29:19 <shachaf> the best of all possible worlds
07:29:57 <shachaf> eq :: (Typeable a, Typeable b) => Maybe (Is a b)
07:30:02 <shachaf> Should I push for that in base?
07:31:04 <Bike> Anyone know a basic sparse array representation I can learn quicklike?
07:31:20 <Bike> is it "basically a hash table"
07:32:04 <fizzie> It's an array of (index, value) tuples.
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07:35:02 <Bike> uh, using what for branching? ranges?
07:36:00 <Bike> um, i was thinkin the keys would be integers, not strings, so.
07:36:09 <shachaf> integers = strings of bits hth
07:36:23 <Bike> i guess that's ranges
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07:45:37 <kmc> Bike: my idea for unboxed lazy arrays is that each cell is either a pointer to a thunk or an unboxed value
07:45:44 <kmc> so they are sized to the larger of the two
07:45:49 <kmc> and you have a bitmap or something to tell you which is which
07:45:59 <shachaf> kmc: could you implement that reasonably without changing ghc itself
07:46:14 <shachaf> the main problem would be the gc i guess?
07:46:17 <kmc> if the unboxed value is smaller than a pointer then you can avoid taking up extra space for that bitmap
07:46:48 <kmc> Bike: for your sparse array how about a trie
07:48:10 <shachaf> radix tree = trie with an optimization for long prefixes
07:48:33 <Bike> yeah, i'm doing a radix tree 'cos of that.
07:49:21 <shachaf> have you seen Data.Map's code it's too scary :'(
07:49:27 <shachaf> shouldn't code like this be simple or something :'(
08:04:03 <Bike> what's a good way to get the position of the least significant bit not shared by two integers, i'm blanking
08:04:18 <kmc> read Hacker's Delight, hth
08:04:28 <Bike> right zero count of the xor i guess?
08:04:30 <kmc> xor them and then yep
08:04:59 <Bike> one am is not the time to be reading hacker's delight, i think
08:05:12 <kmc> gcc Built-in Function: int __builtin_ffs (unsigned int x): Returns one plus the index of the least significant 1-bit of x, or if x is zero, returns zero.
08:06:19 <Bike> wait, isn't that the same as builtin_ctz
08:06:28 <Bike> oh except for the defined zero
08:06:42 <Bike> and uh plus one probably
08:07:08 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_trailing_zeros how convenient
08:07:10 <kmc> @oeis 1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4
08:07:40 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
08:07:52 <Bike> wow, this is in posix? i had no idea
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08:08:33 <Bike> ok posix has ctz but not clz
08:08:34 <kmc> that's cool
08:09:41 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfin reading this stuff takes you to weird places
08:09:53 <kmc> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?37827-Greetings-from-GE-Canada
08:09:54 <Bike> (this has hamming weight as an instruction, apparently)
08:10:21 <Bike> kmc: well i'm terrified.
08:10:33 <kmc> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/
08:11:03 <kmc> Bike: me too, but I'm also glad they don't rewrite it every 2 yeras
08:11:17 <Bike> it seems like a weird thing to commit to, though
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08:23:06 <HackEgo> slist just now: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
08:26:40 <kmc> our nuclear power plants are 100% agile, we use node.js and scrum methodology
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09:11:56 <Taneb> Help I think I'm building GHC as a stress relief
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09:21:34 <olsner> Taneb: how does building GHC relieve stress?
09:21:55 <Taneb> olsner, I realised it doesn't, so I stopped
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10:04:22 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/node/The%20Aesthetics%20of%20Esolangs.html
10:06:02 <cpressey> and i haven't heard anything more from jsvine so i'll assume he didn't get anything publishable out of the interview. but i'll ask him if he's willing to contribute his befunge program to the examples archive.
10:08:06 <cpressey> @tell zzo38 hey, i see your Please Porige Hot page is 403 forbidden. it would make me really happy if it was not forbidden!
10:11:04 <cpressey> @tell oerjan well then *i* flubbed.
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11:00:38 * benuphoenix thinks it is cool that he is running Xubuntu 13.04 (installed from a 12.10 stick and immediately upgraded) on an 8gb class-6 sdhc card.
11:02:27 <benuphoenix> so, could someone point me to a page with the brainf*ck language info?
11:03:08 <mnoqy> try http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
11:12:51 * benuphoenix thought bf would make little sense. instead, he found that unlambda makes it look normal.
11:14:10 <mnoqy> they're both pretty normal.. what makes little sense is the hype around bf
11:16:05 <elliott> mnoqy: unlambda isn't very normal
11:16:13 <elliott> have you seen the details of d and c
11:16:29 <mnoqy> i forget what d is like but i know c
11:17:19 <mnoqy> i guess c isnt "normal"..
11:17:27 <elliott> http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/#delay
11:18:24 <mnoqy> dang evaluation order tricks
11:19:14 <Sgeo> thank you Taneb
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11:34:22 <nooodl> "and F evaluates to d (for example when F is d)"
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11:36:32 <Taneb> BUT WHEN F IS NOT d!
11:36:41 <Taneb> F shall NEVER evaluate to d!
11:37:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm a bit stressed with exams
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11:44:35 <Taneb> I've got two exams left
11:49:28 <olsner> A-levels, he already said that
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11:58:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the last two
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12:08:03 <oerjan> <Taneb> F shall NEVER evaluate to d! <-- SORRY INCORRECT HTH
12:10:48 <oerjan> <kmc> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/ <-- for a fraction of a second i read that as php, fortunately i realized before completely panicking
12:13:50 <oerjan> that's enough logs for today
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12:29:59 <elliott> if ais523 doesn't replace the featured langauge soon I will have no choice but to admin oerjan and tell him to do it.
12:30:22 <ais523> elliott: but I'm concentrating on other things
12:30:58 <elliott> ais523: tell that to oerjan!!
12:31:32 <oerjan> but i have a back ache :(
12:31:57 <oerjan> probably shouldn't be on the computer at all
12:38:10 <elliott> make an esolang based on back ache, hth
12:41:17 <oerjan> a dialect of lifescript, i take
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12:57:47 <oerjan> Taneb: do _you_ understand today's lightning made of owls? :/
13:03:35 <nooodl> how's the hexham weather
13:05:03 <elliott> its very warnm in hexham right now yes
13:05:12 <oerjan> is that like the temperature of doom
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13:13:29 <Taneb> notice how Warnm backwards is mnraW
13:13:40 <Taneb> Which is like MN raw
13:13:47 <Taneb> What is MN? Nobody knows
13:14:04 <Taneb> What is MN? elliott knows
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13:16:00 <elliott> iaaven't even played system shock 1
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13:35:55 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_nonsense cute
13:37:41 * oerjan chases nooodl through a diagram with the swatter -----###
13:37:52 <elliott> oerjan: the daily commute?
13:38:14 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
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15:56:30 <oklopol> so apparently all the results in the DLP paper rely on heuristics
15:57:13 <Bike> "People talk as they ride bicycles - at a rush - without pausing to consider their surroundings."
16:02:45 <Bike> http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/portable-devices/echolocation-by-smartphone-possible wow
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16:12:57 <oklopol> discrete logarithm problem
16:13:33 <Bike> yeah, the paper shachaf and kmc were talking about is heuristastic.
16:14:04 <oerjan> somehow i've forgot to check the box to reconnect the wireless automatically, i hope this will improve things
16:14:25 <oerjan> (not doing it, that is)
16:14:52 <olsner> not forgetting, or not checking the box?
16:16:50 * oerjan buries olsner under an avalanche of iterated negations
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18:58:14 <kmc> `welcome hiato
18:58:17 <HackEgo> hiato: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:58:38 <elliott> kmc: why you gotta use the only boring welcome
18:58:43 <HackEgo> hiato: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:59:23 <hiato> Wow, so I haven't been here for a very, very long time.
18:59:32 <hiato> It was making me sad, really.
18:59:44 * hiato thinks u gaiz are the best
19:00:23 <hiato> Yep, I was here when I was a young one, which would have made elliott a toddler practically
19:00:31 <hiato> well, it's all relative I suppose
19:00:59 <hiato> ais523: Heh, why thank you :) I still remember that time you helped me with my silly maths homework
19:01:16 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: oh, but I remember you <creepy laugh>
19:02:01 <hiato> olsner: I'm not *that* memorable.
19:02:27 <olsner> that's ok, not everyone has to be memorable
19:02:39 <elliott> i remember you because you used fucking delphi or whatever
19:02:43 <hiato> I think I was here mostly around 2007/8 or so
19:02:55 <elliott> ok i remember you for other reasons too
19:03:01 <hiato> elliott: haha, yeah, that was all I knew at that stage.
19:03:04 <Bike> "also used snobol"
19:03:05 <ais523> I remember hiato for the electricity rationing
19:03:15 <ais523> I hope that's got better, at least
19:03:51 <hiato> ais523: oh, wow, I don't even remember telling you about it. Well, nope, not really. At least, it's winter now and there hasn't been one for some time, but I suppose it was at it's worst back then
19:03:57 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: South Africa
19:04:51 <hiato> I guess it would be rather silly of me to ask, but I'll try anyway: what's been happening?
19:05:07 <ais523> not a lot, sadly, esolang development's been kind-of slow
19:05:13 <Bike> the channel got interviewed by a WSJ reporter for some reason
19:05:17 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etbcKWEKnvg wow good
19:05:20 <elliott> i took over the world and a guy from the wall street journal interviewed cpressey over irc and made hexham jokes
19:05:22 <hiato> I checked back on the wiki recently and it's exploded in size since I remember it
19:05:24 <ais523> also we grouped together to make Radixal!!!!
19:05:28 <elliott> and additionally someone else came here from hexham, completely randomly
19:05:32 <ais523> elliott: what, seriously?
19:05:43 <hiato> nice, that's pretty awesome! Gar, I missed a channel interview
19:05:46 <elliott> have you forgotten that taneb is from hexham
19:05:53 <elliott> it's not even funny any more
19:05:53 <ais523> elliott: no, I thought you meant someone beyond taneb
19:06:13 <elliott> maybe hiato wasn't there for the "hexham craze"
19:06:17 <nooodl> were "hexham jokes" even a thing before taneb turned out to also be yeah
19:06:27 <hiato> elliott: hexham craze?
19:06:30 <ais523> well when I first knew elliott he didn't even live in hexham
19:06:39 <olsner> oh, I thought we already had a third hexham
19:06:42 <ais523> so obviously there couldn't be hexham jokes then
19:06:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5982
19:06:48 <olsner> not sure who, but someone
19:06:53 <Bike> is "hexham" what you call a person from hexham.
19:06:54 <hiato> ais523: so haha, I though you were excited about radixal. It turns out the !!! is part of the name.
19:06:55 <Bike> that's p. good
19:07:04 <ais523> hiato: four exclamation marks
19:07:11 <ais523> we chose that because we thought three was the highest justifiable value
19:07:17 <hiato> whoops, wouldn't want to understate it
19:07:18 <Bike> it's just that radix
19:07:40 <elliott> you first knew me in 2007 right
19:08:00 <hiato> elliott: yeah, you were going to move iirc
19:08:03 <ais523> I seem to remember you living in a hamlet near hexham with a name nobody could remember
19:08:04 <elliott> hiato: I live in hexham which is a pretty small rural down (pop. like 11k)
19:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-07-16#160048PhantomHoover
19:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ignore elliott, this is a much funnier way to find out
19:08:40 <elliott> context for Phantom_Hoover's link: he previously mentioned living in northumberland
19:08:43 <elliott> (hexham is in northumberland)
19:08:50 <elliott> and then oerjan joked that taneb would turn out to be my next-door neighbour.
19:08:57 <elliott> (note: northumberland is a lot bigger than hexham)
19:09:13 <nooodl> why was taneb's line a clue for ph to jump to that conclusion though
19:09:31 <Bike> "he's this kid who refused to meet me a few weeks ago" the plot thickens
19:09:37 <nooodl> was it just the "my town"
19:09:39 <ais523> nooodl: because elliott "famously" came from hexham
19:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, because he made it clear he lived in a tiny shithole of a town
19:09:53 <hiato> right, ok, reading now
19:09:55 <elliott> nooodl: divine inspiration
19:10:10 <Taneb> Hexham is awesome though
19:10:16 <elliott> pretty sure jesus just came down from the heavens and pushed the knowledge into Phantom_Hoover's head
19:10:20 <Bike> i fucking love fields
19:10:36 <Bike> hey that reminds me of A Thing
19:10:53 <Bike> the school i'm enrolled in it super hilly, to the extent that there's a place called Johnson Flats, which is not flat and is on a hill
19:11:04 <Bike> positively british naming sense, i must say
19:11:15 <nooodl> 16:09:37: -!- monqy has joined #esoteric.
19:11:18 <ais523> Birmingham has lots and lots of little hills
19:11:19 <nooodl> this log is gonna get good
19:11:24 <ais523> to the extent that horizontal flat land is rare
19:11:38 <ais523> although there are few hills that impress people who come from, say, Sheffield
19:11:59 <ais523> my favourite example: there's a car park that you can enter at ground level, go up 8 floors, and come out at ground level
19:12:34 <elliott> nooodl: no it gets bad shortly afterwards
19:12:36 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a wp article on "the seven hills of edinburgh" which lists a bunch of sets of seven hills people call "the seven hills of edinburgh"
19:12:38 <elliott> because cheater starts talking
19:12:43 <nooodl> "16:18:15: <oklofok> that proves nothing, you could've edited every school's wp page at that time."
19:12:43 <Taneb> I forgot my user page redirects to High Middle Ages
19:12:44 <hiato> Haha, ok, so that is hilarious! :D Why would oklopol give Phantom_Hoover such a hard time about this?
19:12:58 <Taneb> As in, I can't remember it ever having redirected there
19:13:05 <elliott> wasn't it taneb who was given a hard time...
19:13:05 <Taneb> Why would I do that
19:13:17 <hiato> elliott: yes, by oklopol ?
19:13:30 <elliott> ok but you said Phantom_Hoover!!
19:13:37 <hiato> elliott: whoops, yes, Taneb
19:13:49 <nooodl> <Taneb> My next door neighbours are Mr Snowdon and the Bradshaws!
19:14:43 <elliott> oerjan made the neighbour prediction before taneb said he lived in northumberland
19:15:12 <olsner> I think tswett is the one I keep expecting to live in hexham but never does
19:15:31 <Taneb> Doesn't tswett live in Finland/Australia/Antarctica
19:15:32 <hiato> <Taneb> I cannot think of a way to prove that I am in Hexham -- this conversation is incredible
19:16:25 <hiato> Taneb: wow, you really wanted to prove this
19:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i also like how the discussion of topological connectedness is interposed with iti saying some shit about vectors
19:17:16 <Bike> I found list of spells of D&D game including "Explosive Familiar" it makes the caster's familiar explosive, and "Feign Invisibility" which causes others to believe the caster is invisible even though they can clearly see the caster, they must think they can see him somehow even if he is invisible.
19:17:37 <Bike> i just saw that and thought it was funny.
19:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, it makes them think they can see through invisibility spells
19:17:52 <ais523> elliott: it's a literal quote from zzo38
19:18:05 <nooodl> <elliott> who's itidus20 btw
19:18:14 <HackEgo> itidus20's entry has been censored.
19:18:19 <elliott> 18:09:09: <Taneb> I will stand next to the abbey in site of the Hexham Courant Webcam for a while with a sign saying "I AM TANEB"
19:18:22 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
19:18:22 <elliott> 18:09:12: <Taneb> But not today
19:18:23 <elliott> Taneb: you still have to do this
19:18:34 <HackEgo> itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly
19:18:46 <ais523> "some day, maybe next Friday"
19:18:58 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato, are you up to speed on the channel in-jokes yet
19:19:03 <olsner> elliott: he'll show up at your house with a sign that says "I AM TANEB AND I LUV U"
19:19:08 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: I'm getting there :P
19:19:32 <elliott> speaking of channel in-jokes
19:19:36 <ais523> bleh, now I'm going to have to ask zzo38 what overmate is
19:19:51 <elliott> i mean the other kind of op me
19:20:37 <olsner> which kind of op me is that?
19:20:46 <elliott> the one where you do it via /msg chanserv access!
19:20:53 <nooodl> 22:07:05: <Taneb> I got famous last year for wearing a dressing gown and joining a political organization
19:21:04 <Taneb> nooodl, that is a true story
19:21:15 <Taneb> Except it is no longer last year
19:21:19 <Taneb> It is like ages ago
19:21:20 <olsner> famous enough for elliott to see it and provide independent confirmation of it?
19:21:23 <hiato> Taneb: you are an endless source of amazing quotes
19:22:29 <ais523> hiato: I have to be careful when reading the entire quotes database
19:22:35 <ais523> sometimes I can't breathe I laugh so much
19:22:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17667
19:22:45 <ais523> you can do that for anyone in here :)
19:23:00 <hiato> `pastequotes hiato
19:23:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27697
19:23:19 <hiato> yeah, I think that functionality was implemented sometime after me
19:23:34 <ais523> yeah, there aren't any hiato quotes in the list
19:23:37 <ais523> because nobody's added any
19:23:54 <ais523> oh, Taneb used to be called Ngevd
19:24:14 <hiato> yeah, I don't recall this being a feature. In any event, I will continue to read Taneb quotes and that log because you sir, are amazing
19:24:25 <Taneb> I'm not that great
19:24:25 <hiato> I remember Ngevd, yeah, I think.
19:24:40 <nooodl> i keep forgetting when i joined #esoteric
19:24:53 <hiato> Taneb: as ais523 described, I had to literally stop reading to allow for breathing
19:24:59 <HackEgo> 2013-06-19 19:24:53: <hiato> Taneb: as ais523 described, I had to literally stop reading to allow for breathing
19:25:35 <nooodl> 2012-10-21.txt:02:40:28: <elliott> <ion> nooodl: 1, 1, …? Everyone knows the Fibonacci sequence begins with 89, -55.
19:25:36 <nooodl> 2012-10-31.txt:00:36:49: -!- nooodl has joined #esoteric.
19:25:51 <Taneb> `pastequotes Ngevd
19:25:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30517
19:26:33 <Taneb> We haven't told hiato about Facekicker
19:26:57 <hiato> please, I don't know that I can handle more hilarious logs this evening
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19:27:20 <lambdabot> Local time for hiato is Wed Jun 19 21:22:20 2013
19:27:29 <elliott> is south africa really utc+1
19:27:46 <hiato> elliott: yeah, GMT+2
19:28:00 <olsner> shouldn't you be on winter time/standard time/non-summer time now though?
19:28:02 <Taneb> elliott, should we tell hiato about Facekicker
19:28:32 <hiato> olsner: in this country, the government saves energy by randomly shutting off power to suburbs. No need for pesky daylight savings.
19:28:34 <Taneb> But I can't tell it in a funny way!
19:28:51 <olsner> sounds more reliably energy saving too
19:29:07 <hiato> olsner: 100% energy saved on grids, gauranteed!
19:29:18 <elliott> south africa sounds like a weird place
19:29:28 <Taneb> hiato, basically, for a few hours I thought elliott kicked one of my friends in the face but it turned out to be a different Elliott Hird
19:29:32 <hiato> elliott: you should see what it /looks/ like then
19:29:42 <olsner> they say daylight savings time saves like 1% of power, but I think that was before they invented air conditioning
19:30:03 <hiato> Taneb: How many Elliotts are there in Hexham?
19:30:12 <Taneb> hiato, I can think of three
19:30:31 <ais523> elliott: why would it be summertime in winter?
19:30:32 <Taneb> Nobody knows what happened to Facekicker for the past 8 years, though
19:30:55 <Taneb> hiato, Hexham's got almost 12000 people. That's like 0.025%
19:30:57 <hiato> Taneb: also, what on earth leads someone to kick someone else in the face? Was the guy kicking really flexible, or suffering giantism?
19:31:00 <ais523> actually, "it turned out to be a different Elliott Hird" is almost as weird as the multiple-hexhamites thing
19:31:06 <Taneb> hiato, he was standing on a table
19:31:15 <hiato> Taneb: ah, makes more sense now
19:31:19 <kmc> i've never even hird of the surname "hird" before this channel
19:31:29 <elliott> i seriously doubt there are other elliott hirds
19:31:33 <elliott> probably it was actually me
19:31:34 <hiato> this channel is home to the most ridiculous Hexham-centred stories I have ever heard
19:31:40 <Taneb> One of my friends went to first school with someone called Elliott Hird
19:32:07 <Taneb> In a small village close to Hexham but closer to Prudhoe
19:32:13 <ais523> hiato: well hexham-centered stories aren't very common
19:32:19 <hiato> ais523: oh, wait, I completely missed the "different"
19:32:20 <quintopia> i think every man in hexham that none of us has met yet is called elliott hird
19:32:24 <hiato> wow, ok, now this story is ridiculous
19:32:33 <hiato> I didn't realise elliott 's surname was also Hird
19:33:12 <nooodl> elliott: are you suuuure you never kicked anyone in the face
19:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> if you google elliott hird it's a mix of elliott and a kitchen planner
19:33:31 <nooodl> P.S. maybe you're related and it's just another elliott in the Hird family
19:33:38 <hiato> (and there I was thinking facekicker would be some sort of in joke about a facebook derivative or some such)
19:33:50 <elliott> i think i got kicked in the face once
19:34:05 <ais523> what if the victim is lying down?
19:34:17 <nooodl> elliott: you deserved it for kicking someone in the face though
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19:34:18 <Taneb> Facekicker was standing on a table
19:34:18 <elliott> i think that's why one of my teeth is chipped at least
19:34:33 <elliott> that one was from walking into the glass
19:34:34 <olsner> maybe the story is the wrong way around and Taneb's friend kicked elliott
19:34:43 <hiato> Taneb: Facekicker <---> Kingslayer. Any connection in naming scheme?
19:34:52 <elliott> oh i mixed up getting a hole in my head with chipping my tooth i think
19:35:02 <Phantom_Hoover> in that they both consist of a thing and then what they did to that thing
19:35:12 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: why thank you
19:36:28 <nooodl> elliott: yikes are you even still alive
19:37:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i fell on some toy thing when i was young
19:37:28 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, trepanation
19:37:35 <ion> I have a number of holes in my head.
19:37:37 <elliott> all i know is they put some kind of glue thing on it
19:37:40 <elliott> and then it repaired itself
19:37:41 <hiato> ais523: so radixal!!!! looks kinda cool, nice job
19:37:50 <nooodl> this reminds me of a good childhood story when i was like 11
19:37:59 <Taneb> elliott, I had something similar, but it was a bridge
19:38:00 <nooodl> and i was really pissed about something, i don't remember what it was
19:38:08 <nooodl> and i decided to solve my anger issues by kicking something
19:38:17 <nooodl> but the closest thing was a stone wall
19:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i once pushed my sister into a drawer or something by accident
19:38:46 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, i may be making myself sound like a psychopath here
19:38:50 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: yes :(
19:39:24 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, for at least two generations in my family, the elder brother has pushed the second brother off a bed, causing a permanent scar
19:39:30 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: but at least you're not the one who stapled your sister's head?
19:39:33 <nooodl> anyway it's more embarrassing/haunting than it sounds; why did i kick a fucking wall? what was wrong with me
19:40:24 <nooodl> "medical staplers" look very badass thanks google
19:40:28 <ion> When you injure someone with an object, you can always say “well, it was a medical $foo”
19:40:39 <Taneb> What's that song that goes "Doo, dee, do-doo; Doo, dee, do-da"?
19:40:57 <ion> taneb: Meshuggah – Bleed
19:42:12 <ion> Medical stapler http://youtu.be/baNBRs_Wafs
19:42:20 <ion> while drunk
19:42:58 <ion> “Haiers Medical-Circular Stapler For Rectal Prolapse And Hemorrhoids.wmv” /me refrains from clicking
19:44:21 <ion> Yes, i’m pretty happy about it.
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20:10:37 <oklopol> trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn trrndn
20:12:15 <tswett> Taneb: I do live in F/A/A, yes.
20:13:36 <oklopol> <zzo38> Once I start a business I might release some information on internet, such as telephone
20:13:44 <oklopol> is this business up and running?
20:14:58 -!- Tritonio has joined.
20:15:49 <HackEgo> Tritonio: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:16:15 <kmc> i want to know about zzo38's business as well
20:17:14 <ais523> kmc: given that it's zzo38, that line does not imply that he's planning to start a business
20:17:19 <ais523> just that, if he did, that's what he might do afterwars
20:22:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8517
20:22:51 <kmc> always with the cocks
20:23:14 <olsner> oh, kmc was well quoted
20:23:33 <shachaf> i thought you couldn't have those in (sub)urban areas
20:24:44 <kmc> Gregoooooooor
20:24:47 <kmc> fix your encoding header
20:25:19 <Bike> the pokémon theme
20:25:42 <ais523> kmc: well IRC doesn't have a sane encoding
20:25:51 <kmc> ok but this channel uses UTF-8 by convention
20:25:56 <ais523> the default is "UTF-8 if the line happens to be UTF-8, otherwise Latin-1"
20:26:27 <coppro> Bike: was that UTF-8 or Latin-1?
20:26:32 <elliott> op campaign: I would kick anyone who didn't use utf-8 except oklopol
20:26:41 <kmc> there is no code but unicode and utf-8 is its transport
20:26:55 <oklopol> i still don't know what i use
20:27:02 <Bike> ♫ domain name system ♫
20:27:12 <kmc> `run echo é | iconv -t iso8859-1
20:27:24 <coppro> kmc: ok good I'm in utf-8
20:27:27 <oklopol> i changed my irc client because i just couldn't get mirc to work, but i doubt i'm using utf8 now either
20:27:37 <kmc> Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs
20:28:00 <shachaf> oklopol: so far you are, but only the lowest 128 codepoints hth
20:28:03 <Bike> "wait isn't kmc the guy who runs that one pizza shop and night club and used to be a programmer"
20:28:20 <kmc> "Betriebssystemaufrufs" is kind of an awesome word for "syscall"
20:28:28 <kmc> but i bet actual german haxors just say "die Syscall"
20:28:35 <Fiora> German has wonderful words
20:29:08 <Fiora> Rindfleischetikettierungsuberwachungsaufgabenubertragungsgesetz!
20:31:27 <oklopol> <oklofok> "<itidus20> on a related idea. i had this idea of a game of life sort of thing which makes connected clusters of dots have a mass and hence a gravity and to affect each other" <<< can i steal this idea and try to do something cool with it next week?
20:31:34 <kmc> beef something
20:31:40 <oklopol> oh that's where that idea came from
20:31:45 <kmc> Donaudampfschifffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft
20:31:56 <Bike> `pastequotes bike
20:32:00 <oklopol> we almost wrote an article on that :P
20:32:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28416
20:32:02 <Bike> wanna see if the encoding fixed on this somehow.
20:32:44 <Bike> why does ^B make it download
20:33:05 <oklopol> (we made a CA where there's a special state * such that if there are finitely many * then they group together)
20:33:26 <ais523> oklopol: hmm, interesting
20:33:28 <ais523> that's not really a CA any more
20:33:33 <ais523> it's definitely some sort of automaton, though
20:33:49 <oklopol> my definition of a CA is that it's shift-commuting and continuous
20:34:03 <oklopol> this is a property that a CA may or may not have
20:34:38 <oklopol> and we found a CA with such a property, a CA such that one of the states has this curious property
20:34:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5095
20:34:59 <kmc> which was the multiocular O of countries?
20:35:04 <kmc> oh, liechtenstein
20:35:07 <oklopol> it's very simple if the configuration is 0-finite
20:35:10 <ais523> for some reason I thought you had a CA where if you had consecutive * on the tape
20:35:16 <oklopol> (has a finite amount of non-0 cells)
20:35:18 <ais523> some of them just vanished, shrinking the tape to match
20:35:55 <oklopol> you can have states 0, 1 and *, and 1's spread left and down, forming a quarterplane full of 1s, and the *s move northeast on it
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20:36:06 <oklopol> they reach the northeast corner and then they are grouped
20:36:27 <ais523> I assume 1D unless someone states otherwise
20:36:34 <oklopol> but this can be cheated to not work if there's an infinite amount of 1
20:36:47 <oklopol> well it's strictly easier in 1d
20:36:54 <ais523> but that works much the same in any number of dimensions
20:37:01 <ais523> quintopia: I even made a 1D Sokoban
20:37:16 <oklopol> most of our stuff is in 1d, but this one was kind of boring in 1d
20:37:19 <ais523> basically because the Enigma advertised them as an April Fool's joke, so I thought I'd make one
20:37:25 <ais523> quintopia: well it had a bunch of teleporters
20:37:37 <oklopol> dunno if it's very interesting in 2d either, and i don't think we'll even try to publish it
20:37:37 <ais523> that opened and closed on a timer so you could choose not to use them if you wanted to
20:39:22 <quintopia> oklopol: what happens to the * that are northeast of all 1s?
20:39:37 <oklopol> oh 1s start spreading from them
20:39:41 <Taneb> What would a CA look like that was on Sierpinski carpet
20:39:45 <Taneb> Would that even work
20:39:53 <Taneb> s/carpet/triangle/
20:40:31 <ais523> Taneb: those are some of the most common patterns for random CAs to generate, beyond the boring ones
20:40:45 <Taneb> ais523, I mean on one
20:40:46 <elliott> you can get sierpinski in life easily
20:40:51 <Taneb> Instead of on a plane or line
20:41:57 <oklopol> "<oklofok> there's a local rule that tells you what changes are legal. now, to every sequence s in {"E", "U"}^N partitions S^Z we get a subset of points from which the game goes on forever, say for EUEUEUEU... this means from x, for some choice of new cell values by E, for any choice of any cell by U, for some choice of..."
20:42:06 <oklopol> this sounds like our newest article
20:42:52 <oklopol> is this an actual log for one day of ircing or is this a collection of stuff that SHAPED MY LIFE
20:43:34 <oklopol> it actually turned out that the sequence where the game goes on forever is itself a sofic shift if you start with one
20:43:37 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> is this an actual log for one day of ircing or is this a collection of stuff that SHAPED MY LIFE
20:43:42 <HackEgo> 1055) <oklopol> is this an actual log for one day of ircing or is this a collection of stuff that SHAPED MY LIFE
20:43:50 <oklopol> if you care about sofic shifts
20:44:05 <elliott> great to find out that oklopol is sad enough that his entire life is contained in statements about cellular automata from one single day!!!!
20:44:13 <elliott> one day you'll run out of stuff from that log
20:44:16 <elliott> and you'll have no ideas ever again
20:44:27 <oklopol> well i also started smoking that day
20:46:44 <olsner> do you still smoke? I hear that stuff's bad for you
20:47:22 <Bike> what do you smoke
20:50:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10951
20:51:07 <oklopol> lol suddenly i start proving theorems of basic topology
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20:52:09 <oklopol> <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no
20:52:14 <oklopol> i should make a better clue
20:54:06 <oklopol> <oerjan> <oklofok> (for instance all metric spaces are hausdorff and all bounded metric spaces are compact) <-- BZZZT WRONG. *complete, totally bounded
21:00:55 <`^_^v> which of these textbooks should i read next? Types and Programming Languages, Syntax and Semantics of Programming Languages, An Introduction to Database Systems, AI: A Modern Approach, Introduction to Automata Theory, Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists, Virtual Machines
21:01:15 <Bike> three men in a boat
21:01:34 <shachaf> TaPL and Programming Languages
21:01:35 <kmc> of those i've only read TaPL but it's good so, TaPL
21:01:42 <Taneb> star smashers of the galaxy rangers
21:01:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17514
21:02:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:12:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29447
21:13:42 <`^_^v> dont escape me bro
21:14:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6438
21:15:53 <nooodl> did Phantom_Hoover awaken `^_^v
21:24:38 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/wikipedia-users-surprised-nobodys-made-page-for-jo,31815/
21:28:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
21:47:15 <ais523> that wasn't me that time
21:47:20 <ais523> I think I know woh it was though
21:47:33 <ais523> hmm… I have a sequence that starts 1, 3, 6, and the next element is at least 10
21:47:53 <ais523> however it isn't the triangular numbers, because I have a lower bound on it that's O(2^(n/2))
21:56:30 <lambdabot> Triangular numbers: a(n) = C(n+1,2) = n(n+1)/2 = 0+1+2+...+n.[0,1,3,6,10,15,...
21:57:42 <Bike> that first one sure doesn't look exponential.
21:58:04 <Phantom_Hoover> surely someone's written a better oeis search tool by now
21:58:07 <ais523> oh, I have a lower bound of 20 on the fifth element too
21:58:28 <ais523> also, it's bounded above by 2^n-1, and by 2^n-2 for all the elements but the first two
21:59:12 <ais523> so it's not 5043, that breaks the upper bound
22:02:25 <ais523> it's quite an annoying problem to determine elements, I was thinking about it in my head for hours last night
22:02:36 <ais523> perhaps I should write a computer program to brute-force the first few elements
22:03:01 <ais523> so basically, you want to construct a directed graph
22:03:10 <ais523> where each vertex has two edges going out from it
22:03:33 <ais523> and where you can get from any vertex to any other vertex, going only forwards along edges, in n steps
22:03:52 <ais523> and the question is, what's the largest number of vertices you can have in such a graph, for a given n
22:03:57 <ais523> obviously if n=0 you can only have one vertex
22:03:57 <Bike> n being a property of the graph?
22:04:21 <ais523> and you have to find the largest graph such that you can get from any vertex to any other vertex along a path of length n
22:04:29 <ais523> where each vertex only has two edges leaving it
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22:04:43 <ais523> for n=1, you can have three vertices, joined in both directions in a triangle
22:05:35 <ais523> for n=2, you have ABCADADFCFEBED = six vertices
22:05:44 <ais523> (7 can be proved impossible)
22:06:40 <ais523> for n=3, the best I've found is ABCDEAFAFJEJIDIHCHGBGF
22:06:40 <Bike> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_diameter_problem ?
22:07:00 <Bike> This doesn't mention direcctedness, though.
22:07:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:07:29 <ais523> elliott: well 7 being impossible doesn't imply 8 being impossible, but you can label each edge as being A or B so that one A-edge and one B-edge comes from each vertex
22:07:44 <ais523> then from any given vertex there are only 7 possible paths: (no movement), A, B, AA, AB, BA, BB
22:07:50 <ais523> the first leads to the vertex itself
22:07:54 <Bike> i like how graph theory has so many stupid words that there's a "glossary of graph theory" wikipedia article.
22:07:56 <ais523> so there can be at most 6 other vertices
22:09:28 <Bike> i think finding wikipedia articles may be the most useful skill i have
22:09:51 <coppro> ais523: why is 7 impossible?
22:10:09 <ais523> coppro: OK, so imagine you have a solution to 7
22:10:17 <ais523> then pick any vertex, it doesn't matter which
22:10:27 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_the_largest_known_graphs_of_a_given_diameter_and_maximal_degree implies that this is a pretty hard problem
22:10:31 <ais523> your 6 other vertices are reachable via A, B, AA, AB, BA, BB
22:10:48 <ais523> now, consider the paths from A to the other vertices
22:10:50 <Bike> alt. a problem nobody cares about.
22:11:24 <ais523> obviously, AA and AB are the directly reachable vertices, so the other four (B, BA, BB, and 0) must be AAA, AAB, ABA, ABB in some order
22:11:40 <kmc> if you like graphs and numbers and shit you might like http://adventure.cueup.com ? or maybe not, whatever. it's all right
22:11:44 <ais523> without loss of generality assume that AAA = 0
22:12:18 <ais523> now AAB can't be B or you'd have AAAB = AAB, which means you can't reach all 7 vertices from AA
22:12:49 <ais523> and if ABA or ABB is B, then you're stuck with the other one being either BA or BB, which gives a similar contradiction
22:13:17 <ais523> hmm… <ais523> for n=3, the best I've found is ABCDEAFAFJEJIDIHCHGBGF ← the eodermdrome representation of graphs is surprisingly useful
22:14:28 <fizzie> How do you do arbitrary directed graphs in eodermdrome representation?
22:14:44 -!- Koen_ has joined.
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22:15:40 <ais523> but it works for any graph where any vertex is accessible from any of the others
22:15:45 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:16:18 <Bike> http://inkfish.fieldofscience.com/2013/06/moths-wait-until-bats-lock-on-then-jam.html "Moths Wait until Bats Lock On, Then Jam Their Sonar"
22:16:25 <quintopia> doesnt that mean "strongly connected" ais523
22:16:35 <Bike> i'm starting to think i could formulate a cheeky aphorism. anything humans have done, animals have evolved at some point
22:16:43 <kmc> except wheels
22:16:44 <ais523> quintopia: not sure how strongly connected works with directed graphs, but probably
22:16:54 <Bike> kmc: flagella!!
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22:17:42 <fizzie> "A directed graph is called strongly connected if there is a path from each vertex in the graph to every other vertex." (I had it open.)
22:17:48 <fizzie> (For obvious reasons.)
22:18:08 <Fiora> what does weakly connected mean? Oh, I guess for an undirected graph, the two are the same?
22:18:18 <fizzie> Fiora: The underlying undirected graph is connected.
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22:18:57 <quintopia> and "tournament" means "the underlying undirected graph is complete" iirc
22:19:02 <Bike> elliott: mycorrhizal networks hth
22:19:30 <elliott> Bike: what about biologists
22:19:45 <Koen_> fizzie: that's a weird definition. with the graph A -> B <- C, A and C are not connected at all and yet the graph would be weakly connected?
22:19:52 <kmc> found another mushroom in my yard
22:19:59 <Bike> was it on #esoteric
22:20:06 <fizzie> Koen_: See, there's still lines between them.
22:20:15 <kmc> don't know what kind it is yet
22:20:19 <Bike> btw my dorms apparently don't disallow growing things in your dorm
22:20:25 <kmc> but probably not drugz kind
22:20:36 <Bike> not specifically mentioned so totally safe
22:20:37 <kmc> CA has a much better climate for finding those
22:20:40 <kmc> Bike: haha
22:20:49 <Bike> i'm kind of curious what they'd do if i set up a cannabis farm or something
22:20:50 <kmc> and you're in WA so............................
22:20:51 <Koen_> but my first intuition would have been "for every unordered pair, there exists a path from one of the two vertices to the other"
22:20:53 <Bike> maybe if i was an agsci student
22:21:10 <Bike> "brb, hotboxing the greenhouse"
22:21:13 <elliott> Bike: do it; take photos; report back
22:21:48 <elliott> i mean what have you got to lose except your career as a biologist
22:22:03 <kmc> you're making the weed plants smoke weed?? that's cruel
22:22:14 <fizzie> Koen_: Apparently, according to some people[weasel words], that's what it means for a digraph to be just plain "connected".
22:22:15 <Koen_> fizzie: so with my definition A -> B -> C would be weakly connected but A -> B <- C would not
22:22:27 <Bike> i wonder if i could just like, walk out into the palouse, find an empty area, plant some hemp
22:22:27 <elliott> give weed lsd #whoa #drugz
22:22:30 <fizzie> Koen_: (According to some other people, "connected" digraph just means "strongly connected".)
22:22:30 <Bike> that's how farming works, right
22:22:44 <Koen_> yeah that's what's weird with math
22:23:01 <Koen_> "integers" means "natural integers"
22:23:07 <kmc> elliott: i've heard rumors of growing psychedelic mushrooms in soil with various chemicals to get them to produce variants on psilocin / psilocybin
22:23:09 <Bike> probably some ag students are already doing this and i should just get in on their ring.
22:23:09 <Koen_> so relative integers are not integers
22:23:13 <kmc> don't think it's really a thing
22:23:16 <Koen_> weakly connected graphs are not connected graphs
22:23:18 <Bike> kmc: that sounds impossible but cool.
22:23:26 <Koen_> a blue car is not a car
22:23:36 <elliott> kmc: this is your mushrooms, this is your mushrooms on drugs, etc.
22:23:36 <Bike> and you are he as we are he and we are all together
22:23:38 <kmc> also I stopped paying attention for a while and there are all these new designer drugs I've never heard of
22:23:45 <Koen_> well, a blue ray is not a ray, ok
22:23:48 <elliott> designer drugs on the drugs catwalk
22:23:50 <kmc> 25I-NBOMe? JWH-122? LSZ? come on. kids these days.
22:24:10 <Bike> wasn't that the plot to Robocop
22:24:20 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_2,4-dimethylazetidide 'distributed on blotter paper or in liquid solution under names such as "diazedine" and "λ"'
22:24:21 <elliott> how long until they find EVERY drug
22:24:34 <kmc> elliott: a long time, there are only a few labs working on it
22:24:36 <elliott> fuck you i'm naming my drug a greek letter
22:24:48 <Bike> do drugs support unicode, important question
22:24:55 <Bike> god, i'm going to have to do organic chemical nomenclature
22:24:58 <kmc> like I think the Nichols lab at Purdue has been involved with most new psychedelics this decade
22:25:00 <Bike> elliott you can have all my stuff when i die
22:25:02 <elliott> "so what's this new drug called" "well uh... do you know greek"
22:25:08 <kmc> and Shulgin was involved with most of the new ones in the previous few decades
22:25:09 <elliott> Bike: thx, i'll come to your funeral
22:25:13 <elliott> Bike: and throw out the biologist crap
22:25:22 <Bike> plot twist: it's all biologist crap
22:25:24 <Bike> i'm typing this on bark
22:25:39 <elliott> you can't co-opt bark, it would exist with or without filthy biologists!!
22:25:53 <Bike> "It was developed as a rigid analogue of LSD with the diethylamide group constrained into an azetidine ring in order to map the binding site at the 5-HT2A receptor" hm yes, those are words
22:26:11 <elliott> disappointed the LSZ article doesn't tell you what it's like
22:26:22 <Bike> wtf, why does the wikipedia article finger a specific guy
22:26:25 <fizzie> ("25I-NBOMe? JWH-122? LSZ?" <- that's exactly the sort of thing that'd come out of `words.)
22:26:26 <kmc> there are probably a lot of really interesting undiscovered ones, an example is that there's one known 5HT psychedelic that has a strong effect on perception of sound and music
22:26:44 <fizzie> Cylar is so a street name for a drug.
22:26:54 <Bike> oh, it's the missile silo guy.
22:26:55 <ais523> actually, my first reaction was "isn't that a real word?"
22:27:00 <ais523> but I don't think it is
22:27:11 <elliott> possibly the most #drugz thing ever to exist
22:27:12 <kmc> elliott: in that it's a large website entirely about drugs? yes
22:27:15 <ais523> didn't it used to output more than one word at a time?
22:27:19 <fizzie> ais523: I mean the sort of thing that'd come out of `words --dataset with a proper dataset.
22:27:21 <kmc> erowid trip reports are great
22:27:23 <elliott> kmc: see, that's pretty drugz
22:27:25 <HackEgo> beth cnuough stershmen appar brah gen ord troprie pervic evo
22:27:31 <fizzie> I thought 10 was the default, though.
22:27:35 <Bike> i bet i could get a career in neuroethological psychopharmacology
22:27:42 <Bike> (just made up the term because that's how i roll)
22:27:44 <HackEgo> catn cept geterley salogieio son lemede roher pea ire bula ring city sciterce castcr dige wingma man crovitam clesoleosop beli cused praharia aburo oui diagent
22:27:54 <Bike> reverse engineer the endocanniboid system or w/e
22:27:56 <kmc> they range from the people who obsessively check their bp and pulse every 5 minutes, to the people who are just like "i ate some pills i found on the ground and it was fun!!!!!!!!!"
22:28:08 <Bike> neuropharmacology exists, yeah
22:28:27 <Bike> the joke about pharmacology is, well, do you know how drugs (not just drugz) are developed
22:28:29 <elliott> kmc: i once saw a link to this trip report on erowid which was for some completely stupid mundane non-drugz thing and it was hilarious
22:28:35 <elliott> but i've forgotten all about it so i can't properly convey it
22:28:36 <ais523> hmm, there are quite a few real words in those 4294967296
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22:28:55 <kmc> "this LSZ is pretty intense. oh before the comeup I had 20 bonghits and a glass of ayahuasca juice, just my morning ritual"
22:28:57 <ais523> I like "clesoleosop", which probably isn't
22:28:59 <elliott> 4294967296 is smaller than i remember
22:29:23 <fizzie> 4294967296 is almost exactly the same as 25 these days.
22:29:33 <fizzie> ("print generate for 1..min(25, int($ARGV[0]||1));")
22:30:02 <Bike> apparently they don't call drug development "irrational drug design". disappointing
22:30:12 <Bike> "Historically, drugs were discovered through identifying the active ingredient from traditional remedies or by serendipitous discovery. " like
22:30:13 <ais523> I actually tested a couple of terminals for integer overflow recently
22:30:15 <Bike> how great is that?
22:30:29 <ais523> I was trying to come up with a terminal version of CSS hacks
22:30:39 <Bike> " Currently, the research and development cost of each new molecular entity (NME) is approximately US$1.8 billion" uh. oh.
22:30:49 <kmc> http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=32073
22:30:53 <elliott> $1.8 billion for a drugz: worth it
22:30:54 <ais523> one interesting one I discovered was that if you stack 11 or more SGR commands together on DOSBox, it treats it as an SGR 0
22:31:17 <kmc> ais523: if you enjoy doing terrible things to terminals, you should talk to KeithW in #mosh
22:31:18 <Bike> elliott: "ok so what have we got" "it cures cancer, if you've had a kidney removed and are bonghitting"
22:31:44 <elliott> Bike: ok but does it get me high
22:31:47 <ais523> kmc: I've been doing more terrible things than that
22:32:21 <kmc> "Nobody could get me to put the pants I brought with back on, so she asked me what I wanted to wear. Apparently I told her that I needed a kilt and bullhorns... I was taught a song to keep singing when I forgot that I required clothes... 'Got to keep your clothes on' with a little tune. I could still sing it right now if I wanted to, even though I don't remember learning it. "
22:32:31 <Bike> kmc: "ingested a few beers"
22:32:34 <ais523> kmc: like this, for instance: http://nethack4.org/media/charset.vt100 http://nethack4.org/media/colors.vt100
22:33:11 <Koen_> quintopia: the numbers in red in your income
22:33:33 <Bike> "-time stops here-"
22:33:52 <kmc> i like that bold-black-on-black is visible
22:34:02 <Bike> ok this is amazing
22:34:37 <ais523> kmc: the crazy bit is the "polyglot" section
22:34:46 <ais523> sadly, the Unicode one is broken on tmux
22:36:37 <Bike> kmc: i've got to find a way to cite this at some point in my life
22:37:31 <kmc> i'm not 100% sure convinced that 3C-P exists
22:37:54 <elliott> kmc: this guy seems to live on a diet of drugz
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22:49:03 <fizzie> I'd quote the "Moomins on Torrelorca" comic strip at this point -- it's very drugz -- but the copy I have is in Finnish, and the original is in Swedish, and I don't know if it exists at all in English.
22:49:31 <elliott> are you unable to translate finnish to english
22:49:57 <fizzie> In a nutshell, they have this new designer drug called "LBJ".
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22:50:09 <elliott> can't you get your speech recognition software to do it for you
22:50:19 <fizzie> Then I'd have to read it out loud.
22:50:30 <ais523> elliott: I've actually tried watching YouTube set to run its speech recognition output through google translate
22:50:45 <ais523> the worrying thing is, the results occasionally make it possible to figure out what people are saying
22:51:04 <kmc> fizzie: haha
22:51:56 <elliott> but people don't expect speech recognition to work
22:52:27 <shachaf> fizzie: since when are there moomins comic strips.............
22:52:29 <ais523> elliott: I expect speech recognition to sort-of work, and mechanical translation to sort-of work
22:52:47 <ais523> I don't expect either to work well enough that you can plug the output of one into the input of the other and have the result be vaguely intelligible sometimes
22:53:17 <fizzie> shachaf: (From 1954 to 1975, to be more exact.)
22:53:37 <shachaf> I like how https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin_comic_strips has English/Finnish/Swedish/Hebrew.
22:53:39 <fizzie> Though I think the Finnish versions date to the 1980s or so.
22:53:53 <shachaf> I wonder why the moomins were popular in .il?
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22:54:33 <Bike> http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=350 drugz
22:54:59 <fizzie> "The main series of Moomin comic strips were made directly for the British market: they were spread by the British Associated Newspapers comic strip syndicate and the original publisher was the Evening News newspaper. The series originally appeared in newspapers from 1954–1975." Huh, maybe they do exist in English too.
22:55:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26685
22:56:06 <elliott> i think i've, like, seen moomins
22:56:59 <fizzie> I understand they also are sort of big in .jp or something.
22:57:12 <fizzie> Or were at some point, or something.
22:57:41 <fizzie> (There's a Moomin shop at the Helsinki-Vantaa airport.)
22:58:10 <fizzie> "The Moomin Boom has been criticized for commercializing the Moomins. Friends of Tove Jansson and many old Moomin enthusiasts have stressed that the animations banalize the original and philosophical Moomin world to harmless family entertainment."
22:59:54 <Bike> http://www.oddballdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/scary-gas-mask-bong.jpg kmc's true form.
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23:00:24 <kmc> in college we had a bong made from a 5L lab glass flask
23:00:40 <kmc> it had an aquarium pump so it could smoke itself
23:00:44 <kmc> the pump was powerd by firewire
23:00:52 <kmc> also that guy is wearing an ICP shirt..................................................
23:00:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tove_Jansson_1956.jpg
23:01:24 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:02:15 <fizzie> She also lived with another lady (shock) (horror), as I recall.
23:02:50 <ais523> doesn't any household which has at least three people in it have two or more people of the same gender living together?
23:03:06 <Bike_> yes but the point is, gay
23:03:25 <fizzie> ais523: I'm sure you could argue about non-binary gender flab flab etc etc.
23:03:35 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, you could
23:03:43 <ais523> certainly a large proportion do, though
23:03:48 <ais523> non-binary gender exists but is rare
23:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> possibly the moomins are being forced upon the children
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23:04:38 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.lambiek.net/artists/image/j/jansson_t/janssons_tove_under.jpg more like your imaginanation?
23:06:10 <fizzie> If you mean the flower.
23:06:42 <fizzie> It's a very common christmas decoration, done up exactly like that, in Finland; perhaps in Sweden too. Presumably for some sensible and good reason.
23:07:14 <elliott> what temperature is it in finland
23:07:46 <Bike> boily..................
23:07:49 <elliott> thankfully metasepia isn't here
23:07:57 <fizzie> More like metarsepia amirite.
23:08:09 <ais523> I tried to add Finland to my weather indicator
23:08:47 <fizzie> It's been quite warm (as in, 20 °C highs) lately.
23:09:03 <fizzie> http://outside.aalto.fi/ <- best weather information for Finland.
23:09:12 <fizzie> (It's the thing maintained by the IT people at the university.)
23:09:13 <elliott> is finland as much of a shithole as literally everything i've heard about it makes it sound
23:09:49 <kmc> helsinki seems nice, although very expensive
23:09:58 <elliott> kmc: hey man i live in hexham
23:10:57 <fizzie> It's kind of dark (like, the way it is in a hole) at wintertime.
23:10:57 <HackEgo> 682) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone?
23:11:17 <fizzie> Then again, it's kind of light at summertime.
23:11:32 <elliott> kmc: also, you probably don't want to buy helsinki
23:11:36 <elliott> so it doesn't matter how expensive it is
23:11:46 <fizzie> Sunrise in Lieksa, where we're going to visit soonishly, is at around 02:50am or something like that, this time of the year.
23:11:49 <elliott> (this is the part where you say elliott.ais523.moed++ or however it goes)
23:13:51 <ais523> fizzie: when I flew home from Canada to the UK, the plane took a detour north to avoid the Icelandic volcano
23:14:19 <ais523> the result was that the sun changed its mind mid-set, and started rising again
23:14:59 <elliott> you're not allowed to say "the icelandic volcano"
23:15:04 <elliott> you have to make your best attempt to spell it
23:15:31 <fizzie> Like in that one xkcd what-if.
23:15:51 <fizzie> In re sunsets, that is.
23:16:26 <ais523> that's a good approximation
23:16:34 <Bike> eyeracarfokarul
23:16:55 <Bike> oh. god status revoked
23:17:06 <fizzie> Yes, jokull and jökull are quite different.
23:17:23 <Bike> you know what they say about punctuation
23:17:34 <Bike> "i had to help my uncle Jack off a horse"
23:18:02 <ais523> that's not punctuation, that's capitalization
23:19:15 <elliott> it's true it would be pretty awful if people thought your uncle needed help to get down from a horse
23:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, nobody says jack off to mean masturbation in the uk hth
23:19:49 <Bike> you fucking freaks
23:21:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I suspect at least one person does
23:21:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you knew me better, I wouldn't even have to write the reply
23:22:01 <ais523> because you could just have assumed I'd say it, and saved me the trouble of typing it
23:22:17 <Bike> oh yeah?? well, i suspect two people do!
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23:49:58 <ais523> theory: all new non-eso programming languages should reserve a few keywords with general programmy sorts of names
23:50:04 <ais523> so that they can use them for new syntax without causing clashes
23:53:05 <kmc> 19:48 < mm_freak> the rubik's cube group is a theory of documents and patches
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23:53:31 <elliott> kmc: it seems like you're experiencing half of the #haskell people anyway
23:53:44 <kmc> a compelling argument
23:54:11 <elliott> yessss i'm getting through to him
23:54:58 <elliott> kmc: how about after a month we op you for 10 seconds and in those 10 seconds you get to ban whoever you want
23:55:33 <elliott> also if you are found to have compiled a list of commands to run beforehand you get beheaded
23:55:48 <elliott> and you have to be on drugz
23:55:52 <Bike> what if he just clears users.
23:58:21 <shachaf> kmc: i'm in favour of you joining #haskell and making chaos out of chaos
00:01:07 <kmc> i really should know better than to get involved in Git Vs Darcs
00:01:09 <kmc> i don't even care really
00:02:10 <elliott> kmc: are you seriously in a channel where there are people who like darcs
00:02:15 <elliott> come on you're practically in #haskell already
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00:06:38 <Sgeo> What of non-eso languages that by their nature don't have keywords?
00:07:42 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:09:19 <Sgeo> Tcl and Rebol don't count as esolangs I think
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00:18:28 <elliott> hm but they're talked about so much in #esoteric...
00:19:16 <Sgeo> Probably more than Tcl and Rebol combined
00:19:43 <mnoqy> everyone knows haskell is JUST PLAIN WEIRD AND CRAZY and only for special people -gags & vomit-
00:20:06 <mnoqy> everyone is special, shachaf
00:22:01 <shachaf> even for photographers.............................
00:22:31 <shachaf> kmc: you should make a version of MS-DOS which runs on a cluster of computers
00:23:02 * kmc waits for it
00:23:06 <elliott> kmc: hey i thought of another great reason you should be in #haskell
00:23:15 <kmc> oh "distributed DOS"
00:23:24 <elliott> kmc: you don't use (#)haskell but you still go on about it a lot
00:23:33 <kmc> not that much really
00:23:38 <kmc> people keep bringing it up here.............................
00:23:45 <elliott> just think how much more you could complain about #haskell if you were in it
00:23:52 <elliott> and you wouldn't seem bitter because it'd be present tense!
00:24:51 <shachaf> kmc could seem bitter while handing out candy
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00:25:27 <elliott> by candy do you mean drugz
00:25:35 <elliott> gonna get me some of kmc's "candy"
00:25:45 <kmc> brain candy
00:26:13 <shachaf> elliott: you gotta move to ca to have kmc be your dealer
00:26:17 <elliott> kmc: did i mention caleskell is gone.......
00:26:31 <shachaf> elliott: he doesn't do interstate commerce
00:26:46 <shachaf> (the joke is everything is interstate commerce)
00:26:46 <elliott> attn kmc and/or other californians
00:26:48 <elliott> 01:26:03 <badzavrza> http://www.california-roleplay.org/
00:27:33 <elliott> 01:26:03 -!- badzavrza [~badzavrza@178-221-29-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))]
00:27:33 <elliott> i like how my connection dropped for 10 seconds after pasting that first line
00:27:46 <elliott> if only kmc was in #haskell so he'd hear about california roleplay 1st hand
00:28:05 <elliott> kmc: did you know augustss has been in #haskell recently........
00:28:08 <kmc> a bunch of croatian people pretending to be in california???
00:28:10 <kmc> elliott: cool
00:28:13 <shachaf> 17:26 -!- badzavrza [~badzavrza@178-221-29-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))]
00:28:34 <shachaf> to be fair elliott's timestamp is wrong
00:28:49 <elliott> kmc: not as kool as kmc.......
00:29:13 <elliott> trying to think of three words starting with k that i could use to describe kmc's hypothetical haskell presence in haskell so i can turn them into an acronym
00:29:42 <shachaf> btw important question...........
00:29:53 -!- augur has changed nick to LRk.
00:29:53 <shachaf> is there something like /usr/share/dict/words except with "lots of good metadata" about the words
00:29:57 -!- LRk has changed nick to augur.
00:30:09 <lambdabot> *** "metadata" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:30:09 <lambdabot> n 1: data about data; "a library catalog is metadata because it
00:30:10 <shachaf> like adjective/verb/whatever, tense/whatever, number of syllables, stress, ........
00:30:32 <elliott> there is a command line wordnet tool
00:34:21 <kmc> Look! At the picture. See! The skull. The part of bone removed. The master race Frankenstein radio controls.
00:35:06 <elliott> 17:31:16 --- join: fwe (~ssjsj@31.205.67.235) joined #haskell
00:35:16 <elliott> 17:31:18 <fwe> i was in project that was failing and as a result got my probation period extended. they said my programming skills were not that good.
00:35:19 <elliott> however an expert programmer was brought in and the project is still failing. the project manager and i had had an argument and that is why he tried to sabotage me. do you feel the boss knows the truth now?
00:35:23 <elliott> kmc: look what you're missing!!!
00:36:25 <shachaf> kmc: if only we had more ops on their toes, ready to ban the trolls etc
00:36:49 <elliott> mosh's messing up all the lines with this terminal is so awful that i copied that from the tunes logs.........
00:36:53 <elliott> imo rewrite mosh in haskell
00:37:14 <shachaf> imo rewrite haskell in mosh
00:37:22 <kmc> shachaf: now we're talking about php help
00:37:37 <Fiora> kmc: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Pot-o-Gold.aspx I saw this the other day
00:37:43 <Fiora> "type conversion in PHP"
00:37:45 <shachaf> kmc: do you really think the "##crypto experience" is better than "the #haskell" experience
00:38:23 <elliott> lots of aim heckers in #haskell, if you know what i mean
00:38:30 <elliott> (i mean that people complain about php in #haskell a lot)
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00:44:40 <shachaf> kmc: also monochrom said he misses you once
00:45:01 <shachaf> if that's not a good reason to join #haskell (alt. any channel monochrom is in) then i don't know what is
00:45:37 <elliott> more reasons to join #haskell: prevents anyone from having the thought "maybe if i murder kmc they'll shut up about him joining #haskell in #esoteric"
00:46:38 <ion> fiora: unsafeCoerce?
00:47:08 <shachaf> 18:52:21 <monochrom> always trust monochrom after you have asked him to double-check and he has confirmed
00:47:21 <Fiora> ion: I... have no idea >_< I don't know haskell
00:47:43 <fizzie> WordNet also has an API.
00:47:45 <shachaf> Fiora: unsafeCoerce is like reinterpret_cast.
00:48:10 <shachaf> Fiora: You should learn Haskell!
00:49:41 <fizzie> It does not know anything about phonology, though.
00:50:02 <Fiora> I learned haskell before for class... kind of...
00:52:05 <shachaf> they teach haskell in classes now??
00:52:50 <Fiora> Um... our compilers class used haskell, mostly, so the professor taught us a bit of it
00:52:58 <fizzie> (There are a couple free pronunciation dictionaries of different size, but none of those I know about collect other sort of mettadatta.)
00:53:46 <shachaf> "oh wait pseudonym never mind"
00:55:23 <shachaf> I should stop phrasing things in esoterese.
00:55:53 <Fiora> or... actually wait, I think it was the programming languages class?
00:56:19 <elliott> haskell is well-suited for compilers at least, so it's a fairly good setting to encounter it in
00:56:30 <Fiora> geez it was three years ago now >_<
00:57:37 <Fiora> whatever it was we did do some compiler-making in it, like stuff with inheritance and type checking and super basic optimization
00:57:45 <Fiora> haskell pattern matching was like amazing for it
00:57:54 <Fiora> you could write a peephole optimizer by pattern-matching against instruction sequences
00:58:00 <elliott> three years ago i was 14........... yikes
00:58:00 <fizzie> Our compiler class: used Java; and compiled: "MiniJava"; which has as a single lexical token the string "System.out.println".
00:58:43 <Fiora> like you could match against (mul x 2) and turn it into (add x x) type of thing
01:00:05 <fizzie> elliott: Statement ::= "System.out.println" "(" Expression ")" ";".
01:00:32 <elliott> every time i do a simple peephole optimiser it always feels like i'm not really doing optimisation because it's too simple :(
01:00:34 <fizzie> (The type of Expression must also be "int".)
01:01:11 <elliott> hm is x+x or x*2 actually faster in general with today's cpus(tm)? I have no idea
01:01:16 <elliott> I would assume the latter, but
01:01:19 <elliott> (I realise it was just an example)
01:01:38 <fizzie> Oh, also: MainClass ::= "class" Identifier "{" "public" "static" "void" "main" "(" "String" "[" "]" Identifier ")" "{" Statement "}" "}".
01:02:08 <Fiora> add is typically 1 cycle latency and can issue on every pipe, so 0.25/0.33/0.5 inverse throughput depending on the CPU?
01:02:10 <fizzie> None of those things ("public", "static", "String") have any sort of more proper significance. They're just... strings.
01:02:22 <Fiora> multiply kind of ranges but like... it usually can only issue once per cycle and it has higher latency so it's like... 3/1, 4/1, 5/1 ish?
01:02:35 <Fiora> I mean it kind of makes sense that adds are a lot easier than multiplies
01:03:05 <Sgeo> Did the interview ever get published or anything?
01:03:11 <fizzie> Fiora: But do they deal with immediate 2 in any sort of special way? (Perhaps not, since it's the sort of thing you'd expect tools to do.)
01:03:12 <elliott> I don't know what 0.25/0.33/0.5 inverse throughput actually means :(
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01:07:47 <Fiora> usually I think other things tend to be the bottleneck for cycle length?
01:07:51 <Fiora> so like, atom has only two execution pipes
01:07:55 <Fiora> so it can't possibly do more than two adds
01:08:12 <fizzie> "In Intel microarchitecture code name Sandy Bridge, the low 64-bit result of a 128-bit multiply is ready to use in 3 cycles and the high 64-bit result is ready one cycle after the low 64-bit result. -- In a dependent chain of addition of integers wider than 128-bits, accessing the high 64-bits result of the multiply should be delayed relative to the low 64-bit multiply result for optimal ...
01:08:15 <Fiora> so usually every execution pipe can do at least the most simple things
01:08:18 <fizzie> ... software pipelining."
01:08:22 <fizzie> Writing a proper optimizing compiler must be the best job.
01:10:07 <Fiora> from agner's little chart thing, various CPUs doing 32x32->32 multiplies: bulldozer: 4/2 sandy bridge: 3/1 original p4: 14/4.5 prescott: 10/2.5 atom: 5/2
01:11:39 <Fiora> I was guessing on the haswell add thing, like, I just remember hearing that they added a 4th execution pipe for super-simple-things-only, to handle like, jumps and loop overhead and stuff while the others handle big things like simd operations?
01:12:17 <fizzie> A kind of a... half-pipe... (ba-dum tssh)
01:13:09 <fizzie> It's some kind of a snow ski thing, right?
01:13:18 <Fiora> I think so it's like a skateboarding thing?
01:13:28 <Fiora> I know this because my little brother was really, really into tony hawk's pro skater
01:13:38 <fizzie> I think Ski Or Die had a half-pipe event.
01:13:38 <shachaf> let's settle on snowboarding hth
01:13:55 <elliott> the tony hawk's games obsoleted actual skateboarding
01:14:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_or_Die <- Snowboard Halfpipe is like right there in the article image.
01:14:17 <Fiora> so now intel has like, 7 execution pipes
01:16:09 <fizzie> "When a girl start giving a guy head but then decides to stop/leave before the guy blows his load. -- She stoped giving me head before I cames and she left. All I got was a half-pipe." thanks, urban dictionary.
01:16:25 <fizzie> Did you stoped at the red light?
01:17:11 <Fiora> http://www.csanl.com.br/alunos/paginas/2012/7a/f7a14/Image%209.jpg
01:17:13 <Fiora> I think it's that thing
01:17:19 <Fiora> but um I guess this is kind of off topic
01:17:44 <fizzie> I don't see how, it was a logical consequence of whatever came before.
01:21:13 <fizzie> "The current method of half pipe cutting is by use of a Zaugg Pipe Monster." okay that's it time to sleep it's 4:20am
01:22:24 <ion> Thanks for explaining. Thexplaining.
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01:25:28 <kmc> i missed microarchitecture because i was cleaning my bathroom :'(
01:25:37 <fizzie> (Possibly the Zaugg Pipe Monster was enough of a drugz joke already.)
01:26:27 <elliott> kmc: it's ok it was just me not knowing basic things!!!
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01:27:19 <kmc> i learned from 6.004 that there are lots of different ways you can structure an adder
01:27:26 <kmc> with the goal of minimizing gate delay
01:27:33 <kmc> but they probably have settled on one by now
01:28:18 <kmc> like the naive adder takes O(# bits) to settle down; the last gate can't start settling before it gets the carry from the previous
01:28:52 <elliott> how long until the transistors are small enough to just hardcode all the results
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01:29:12 <elliott> also can we have 3d cube cpus, that would be cool
01:29:26 <Sgeo> "The problem for marketers is that some users set their browsers to reject cookies or quickly extinguish them. And mobile phones, which are taking an increasing chunk of the Web usage, do not use cookies."
01:29:26 <kmc> so you can make a "carry select" adder where you do the last half of the addition twice in parallel, once assuming carry 0, once assuming carry 1
01:29:28 <Fiora> kmc: we can talk more about it and stuff!
01:29:29 <Sgeo> I hate everyone.
01:29:33 <Sgeo> http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamtanner/2013/06/17/the-web-cookie-is-dying-heres-the-creepier-technology-that-comes-next/
01:29:38 <kmc> and then the actual carry just selects between those
01:30:00 <kmc> and so a good archticeture is like an unbalanced tree of this idea recursively
01:30:23 <Fiora> I remember hearing though that the bottleneck in current chips is often things like "select the oldest instructions whose input dependencies are satisfied from this queue of 36 instructions" and things like that? and I guess maybe like cache loads and stuff?
01:30:31 <Fiora> like, OOE logic and things
01:30:41 <elliott> really dumb question: why are chips flat
01:30:57 <elliott> i guess they have 3d internal structure but it's all really small?
01:31:04 <Sgeo> Can someone please tell me where "mobile phones do not use cookies" come from?
01:31:06 <Fiora> it's because of the way lithography works, isn't it?
01:31:10 <Sgeo> It has to be a misunderstanding of SOMETHING
01:31:16 <Fiora> like, it's all about laying down layers
01:31:32 <fizzie> Aren't they starting to do "3D" like right these days?
01:31:41 <Fiora> so like, if you wanted it 3D, you'd have to stick two silicon wafers on top of each other (?) I'm not sure
01:32:39 <elliott> more dumb questions: wouldn't it all be a lot faster if they like, integrated the RAM with the CPU.
01:32:55 <fizzie> Oh, the "3D" of a tri-gate transistor perhaps has nothing to do with three dimensions. How nice.
01:33:51 <Fiora> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDRAM it's a thing!
01:34:25 <elliott> oh they actually use it in consoles and stuff
01:34:35 <fizzie> Anyway actual three-dimensional things are a thing too, I'm pretty sure, just not such a commercially viable thing.
01:34:44 <elliott> it seems like it would be, like, significantly faster? because you can skip all the communication paths and stuff
01:34:51 <elliott> and the motherboard and all that?
01:34:54 <elliott> and RAM latency is kind of a big deal right
01:35:14 <elliott> but I guess if they're using it in consoles and not "regular computer" CPUs it mustn't be that amazing..... (but then why are they using it in consoles)
01:35:23 <kmc> intel has those 3D transistors now
01:35:33 <Fiora> I think a lot of RAM latency comes not from the distance but from like...
01:35:35 <kmc> if you want like a cube shape then one big obstacle is routing power and cooling
01:35:56 <Fiora> like, the logic itself? I mean like, there's a controller, which is this crazy complex thing and has to negotiate requests from multiple cores
01:36:21 <Fiora> and then there's the row/column addressing, the refreshing, and all kinds of stuff I don't really know abot
01:36:32 <Fiora> it's like, DRAM itself is kind of not trivial to access?
01:36:35 <elliott> I just see a long path and think "hey, I bet lightspeed is some kind of bottleneck here in 2013" :P
01:36:47 <fizzie> kmc: "Tri-gate or 3D Transistor (not to be confused with 3D microchips) fabrication is used by Intel Corporation for the nonplanar transistor architecture --" that seems to sort of imply it's not a properly "3D IC" thing.
01:37:13 <Fiora> (20 centimeters) / ((2 / 3) * c) = 1.00069229 nanoseconds
01:37:26 <Fiora> so like... if the roundtripdistance is 20cm that's like... it's like only 1ns extra time from the wire?
01:39:53 <Fiora> maybe the "3D" is for "3 drain"??
01:40:06 <kmc> yeah i see
01:40:23 <elliott> it seems like there is a trend of moving stuff closer to the cpu anyway
01:40:36 <kmc> yeah DRAM is complicated... it's funny how if you look at any two parts that are "just wired together" you find they're really two machines speaking a protocol
01:40:45 <kmc> and this holds recursively to some depth
01:40:49 <elliott> eventually you will just buy a motherboard from intel where every part of the computer is on one big chip and all it has is USB ports
01:40:57 <Fiora> I remember reading about just how gigantic modern DRAM controllers were, like, they used up a significant part of the silicon or something
01:41:09 <elliott> kmc: does it hold within the CPU itself? I guess probably
01:41:22 <kmc> it's impossible to design something that big without abstractions and protocols
01:41:27 <Fiora> elliott: like, systems on a chip?
01:41:36 <kmc> like the cores on a single die have to execute a cache coherence protocol right
01:41:37 <Fiora> weren't they making like, an atom soc or something (?)
01:42:13 <kmc> sounds like something intel would do
01:42:16 <fizzie> *Someone* is making Atom SoCs, at least.
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01:42:35 <kmc> is it competitive with ARM SoCs in any way
01:42:44 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_%28system_on_chip%29
01:44:05 <shachaf> kmc: the whole thing in _The Door Into Summer_ where he gets engaged to a 12 year old is admittedly "a bit weird".......and also there's all the sexism and all that.........
01:44:09 <shachaf> but it's still a good book hth
01:44:18 <kmc> "Intel has announced that it won't provide support for Linux on Cloverview family of Atom systems-on-a-chip"
01:45:15 <elliott> system on a chip looks like that yes
01:49:12 <Fiora> I wish I knew more about this stuff though...
01:49:36 <Fiora> the instant the bits leave the core my knowledge drops to about zero...
01:51:13 <elliott> the instant the bits leave the screen my knowledge drops to zero
01:51:28 <elliott> ok let's say "disk" instead. except i don't know anything about the disk itself
01:51:57 <kmc> except when they don't
01:52:25 <Fiora> I think there's like magnets involved
01:52:27 <fizzie> When they don't, they just... solid around, right?
01:53:04 <elliott> kmc: i have one of those disks that doesn't spin
01:53:09 <elliott> i don't trust it because it doesn't make noises
01:53:23 <elliott> i have internalised that the act of storing data fundamentally requires little clicky noises
01:53:53 <kmc> shachaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDQOvzFetxs
02:00:16 <shachaf> kmc: just a quick questions if I chose to learn Haskell what are the benefits is it better the C/C++ will I be able to write dll ? or winapi etc
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02:08:42 <Bike> kmc: i don't get it, this cnn money thing is fucking hilarious
02:09:19 <elliott> kmc: if you join #haskell then shachaf and I won't paste you the worst of #haskell
02:09:53 <Bike> like how shachaf doesn't talk about ##crypto in here.
02:09:53 <shachaf> elliott: Uh, can I sign up for that deal?
02:14:57 <kmc> "Think you’ve evolved past your primordial urges to employ murder as a problem solving tool? Read:"
02:16:09 <kmc> the link is http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/13/technology/alex-banayan-vc.pr.fortune/index.html if you really want to murder someone
02:16:14 <kmc> or want to want to murder someone, anyway
02:16:52 <Bike> i mean it's just so over the top
02:17:28 <Bike> like, "The problem for VCs lusting after 18-year-old entrepreneurs is that they themselves are usually forty- and fiftysomethings"
02:20:20 <kmc> 'TechCrunch named it "douchebag app of the year."' <---- actual quote
02:20:38 <Bike> well yeah that playbook thing is pretty terrible.
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02:21:01 <kmc> 'Fontenot told him the demand was much bigger than what Facebook could handle.'
02:30:02 <kmc> Bike: don't miss the astroturfing in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5907253
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02:35:35 <elliott> Alex is the real deal! Never have I talked with someone and been so inspired! He has influence to source deals and has heard thousands of stories from entrepreneurs. I trust his expertise.
02:35:39 <elliott> I don't know. I still feel like a VC is taking a big risk on a hot-shot young hustler like this.
02:35:44 <elliott> Venture capital is literally all about taking big risks...
02:35:48 <elliott> Truth. So in that case why aren't other VC firms bringing on young hustlers like Alex here to build relationships and scout out young founders?
02:36:07 <Bike> wow i don't even have to open the link. you should start a VC firm for pasting things about VC firms into irc
02:36:12 <Bike> hot shot young hustler, jesus
02:36:35 -!- elliott has set topic: Hot shot young hustler Jesus | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
02:38:09 <shachaf> kmc: are you all ready to move to startupland
02:38:11 <kmc> if you want to read some more terrible things, Noisebridge is having a long argument about whether the violent guy with the "WHITE POWER" tattoo should be asked to leave https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-June/037346.html
02:38:20 <Bike> what's noisebridge
02:38:35 <kmc> SF hackerspace, prominent among hackerspaces nationally
02:38:47 <kmc> and world-class drama generator
02:38:56 <elliott> The name of the guy with the tattoos is Robbie, and he's a nice guy. I haven't seen Robby do anything that warranted being asked to leave. Of course, Robby might be nice to me because I am one of two people who bothered to introduce themselves to him.
02:39:06 <elliott> what's with all you weirdos not introducing yourself to a guy with a "white power" tattoo
02:39:26 <Bike> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-June/037410.html ahaha beautiful
02:39:47 <Bike> white power isn't always a racial slogan it's the rascist minds and race baiters that interpret it that way and want others to
02:40:13 <Bike> seriously though what is this, some kind of "hackrspace" thing or
02:40:29 <elliott> 03:38:35 <+kmc> SF hackerspace, prominent among hackerspaces nationally
02:40:38 <Bike> wow i missed that oops
02:41:16 <kmc> previous episodes include: Noisebridge lost all their money and nobody knows how; Noisebridge debates whether to let someone teach a class on cooking crystal meth; Noisebridge argues about whether people should inhale nitrous oxide in the hackerspace
02:41:29 <Bike> oh my god, some of these messages
02:41:38 <Bike> WHAT ABOUT A JEWISH GUY WITH A SWASTIKA TATTOO???
02:42:12 <Bike> oh somebody ragequit
02:42:13 <elliott> kmc: what was that other one
02:42:16 <Bike> yes this is good
02:42:24 <kmc> person emails noisebridge about the evils of flouridation
02:42:31 <Bike> You see my arguments as defending a racist and I see them as defending critical thinking.
02:42:40 <kmc> someone else compares this to 9/11 trutherism facetiously
02:42:46 <kmc> then the thread talks about 9/11 trutherism seriously for a while
02:43:02 <Bike> "There's no way that I could know how it feels to be beaten in the street for the color of my skin or know the weight of living under the burden of another groups privilege." are they like
02:43:10 <Bike> are we supposed to think "no, you do know that"
02:43:10 <myndzl> ((i*23831)>>18)*352>>5 -- can this be simplified further?
02:43:38 <Bike> good idea i will think about this question instead of continuing to read.
02:43:54 <shachaf> i've never been to noisebridge "should i go y/n"
02:43:59 <Bike> yes, you could replace the end with *63>>3, couldn't you?
02:44:17 <myndzl> i mean in terms of operations, not numbers
02:44:19 <Bike> wait, i guess not hm
02:44:24 <myndzl> i'm thinking about, say,
02:44:33 <myndzl> adding 352*2^18 in the multiplication
02:44:36 <Bike> no wait you could ok
02:44:38 <myndzl> but i don't think that works
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02:44:43 <kmc> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-June/037482.html
02:44:45 <myndzl> also how do you arrive at *63?
02:45:00 <Bike> bad arithmetic in my head :D
02:45:34 <Bike> i guess it would be *11
02:45:48 <Bike> since i mean, 352 = 11*2^5, is all
02:46:06 <myndzl> doesn't give the same result
02:46:21 <Bike> sorry i'm kind of out of it
02:46:26 <myndzl> dunno, but i was thinking similar
02:46:35 <myndzl> ((25*23831)>>18)*352>>5
02:46:36 <myndzl> ((25*23831)>>18)*11>>5
02:46:43 <Bike> i mean get rid of the >>5
02:47:16 <myndzl> that works but i am not quite sure wh-- nm i am
02:47:46 <Bike> fear my power, for i know basic arithmetic
02:47:53 <shachaf> kmc: btw when you move to sf are you going to get a night iphone and a day iphone
02:48:00 <kmc> no is that a thing
02:48:08 <shachaf> http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/my-phone/2013/03/dave-morin-path-facebook-apple
02:48:32 <shachaf> that thing is the best thing
02:48:49 <Bike> "I don’t use a ring of any kind on my phone. This is so that I am always on offense and never defense."
02:48:51 <elliott> like how [case] tells you that this guy referred to his fucking iphone case as a "walnut-back"
02:48:55 -!- myndzl has changed nick to myndzi.
02:49:03 <elliott> “They remind me of home and my values. The mountains are my soul.”
02:49:26 <elliott> “It’s a custom-designed, one-of-a-kind bespoke app I had built for my assistant and I to communicate and collaborate through.”
02:49:40 <Bike> "Editors curate the most important news stories of the day and break them down into basic points, quotes, and imagery" alright i gotta check this out
02:49:45 <elliott> i honestly think it must be a send-up of startup culture
02:49:56 <Bike> oh you have to get an app for this
02:53:32 <Bike> @msg #esoteric yes
02:54:34 <Bike> how do you even notice it
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02:55:37 <Bike> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
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02:58:38 <mnoqy> counting is for losers
03:00:10 <kmc> http://abadfortress.tumblr.com/
03:00:45 <elliott> this is not the dwarf fortress i know
03:00:46 <Bike> kmc: why does it look like link's awakening
03:01:48 <mnoqy> it looks more like pokemon
03:01:48 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/5e16dcd9ba738025b40d0e48424b9ceb/tumblr_moidwos8Y71spfoh9o3_1280.png
03:02:07 <kmc> i think it's a bootleg translation of japanese pokemon into english
03:02:08 <elliott> i literally scrolled down to it
03:02:14 <elliott> before clicking kmc's link
03:02:25 <mnoqy> The Power of Drugz
03:02:28 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Schéma_synchronicité_in_English.png
03:02:32 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/ccd724c3a73588a5d203fdf0262e755d/tumblr_moidmnSzMS1spfoh9o3_1280.png
03:03:05 <Bike> is this vietnamese crystal
03:03:15 <elliott> vietnamese crystal sounds like a drug tbh
03:03:16 <kmc> if you scroll back enoguh then the blog is about dwarf fortress instead
03:03:30 <elliott> "i got some premium vietnamese crystal man, let's get fucked up"
03:03:34 <Bike> elliott: are you reading this, it pretty much is
03:04:08 <shachaf> hey is someone selling drugz
03:04:21 <shachaf> kmc: is santa cruz famous as a place to get drugz btw
03:04:24 <kmc> "Pokemon Vietnamese Crystal is a Vietnamese-to English translated version of Crystal that was sold as a bootleg in markets accross Vietnam in early 2001. Based on all of the place names and the names of the characters, it is most likely that this is a translation of the Chinese version of Crystal(which itself is an unofficial translation of the Japanese version"
03:04:38 <shachaf> kmc: one time i told someone that i had been to santa cruz in the evening and he thought it was for buying drugz
03:04:39 <kmc> shachaf: i guess
03:04:45 <Fiora> kmc: gosh, that reminds me of... what was it...
03:05:04 <Fiora> "Star War The Third Gathers: The Backstroke of the West"
03:05:11 <Bike> is that turkish star wars or
03:05:13 <Fiora> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_War_The_Third_Gathers:_The_Backstroke_of_the_West
03:05:17 <Fiora> it was the bootlegged version with "DO NOT WANT"
03:05:33 <elliott> http://winterson.com/2005/06/episode-iii-backstroke-of-west.html
03:06:23 <Bike> "amazingly enough, the beginning scroll is mistranslated even though the words are right there on the screen" good
03:06:49 <Bike> Our dichotomy opens the combat
03:07:14 <elliott> this seemed completely random until i figured out that 'jedi council' was being translated into chinese then back to english as 'the presbyterian church'.
03:07:35 <kmc> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005195.html in depth examination of how the word 'fuck' ends up in so many translations from chinese
03:07:45 <kmc> attn Bike, other language nerds
03:08:14 <Bike> wow do i qualify as a language nerd now
03:08:48 <elliott> bike: biologist, linguist, bicycle.
03:09:01 <Bike> the bike, the myth, the legend
03:09:08 <shachaf> linguists are the worst thing
03:09:12 <mnoqy> shut up shachaf!!!!!
03:09:16 <mnoqy> shut up!!!!!!!!!!!
03:09:31 <shachaf> today i speak up against linguists!
03:10:01 <shachaf> first they didn't come for the statisticians
03:10:12 <shachaf> and i didn't speak up because i didn't hate statisticians
03:11:19 <kmc> i like that the investigation involves finding the chinese-language forum where chinese people make fun of bad chinese -> english translations
03:13:10 <shachaf> mnoqy: wait you're not a linguist are you
03:14:12 <kmc> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/Gan10.jpg Correct translation: "Dry Seasonings Section"
03:14:59 <kmc> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/Gan11.jpg this would be a great if aggressive motto
03:21:02 <kmc> a fast ether lord fucking net ascending
03:21:24 <Bike> that's my tagline on dating sites
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03:28:04 <elliott> wow these birds outside are making annoying noises.
03:28:08 <elliott> it's like they want me to not sleep.
03:28:25 <elliott> the kind that makes annoying noises at 4 am
03:28:40 <kmc> yeah i think it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Scrub_Jay
03:28:56 <kmc> nice looking bird imo
03:29:07 <shachaf> what's a not nice looking bird iyo
03:29:07 <elliott> imo the birds here make worse noises than the birds in the other place in hexham i've lived
03:29:15 <elliott> those made soothing oo oo noises
03:29:37 <kmc> http://thearchnemesis.com/Ugly-Birds.html
03:30:03 <kmc> i agree with these except pigeon
03:30:08 <kmc> i think pigeons are pretty
03:30:20 <kmc> don't think so
03:30:34 <kmc> are you a seagull
03:30:41 <shachaf> oh, you're calling my personality ugly
03:30:53 <Bike> "We will assume the validity of the axiom of choice without further ado" ruh roh
03:30:54 <shachaf> https://translate.google.com/#iw/en/%D7%A9%D7%97%D7%A3 hth
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03:31:29 <kmc> huh interesting
03:31:43 <kmc> ftr i don't think seagulls are ugly either
03:31:58 <Bike> Introductory Real Analysis by Kolmogorov
03:32:06 <Bike> (obviously it goes on to mention The Controversy)
03:32:22 <shachaf> kmc: _The Door into Summer_ has a bunch of great things about cats.
03:32:57 <Bike> i can't really imagine a well ordering of the reals......................
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03:33:22 <elliott> Bike: don't worry in type theory you get the axiom of choice as a theorem without getting a well-ordering of the reals!
03:33:27 <elliott> It's The Best Of Both Worlds
03:33:29 <kmc> is that so
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03:33:47 <Bike> you can prove choice from well-ordering i thought
03:33:47 <elliott> kmc: http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html "my favourite blog post"
03:33:53 <elliott> Bike: yes but that's in set theory.
03:34:03 <Bike> oh boy some other thing
03:34:50 <Bike> "The key difference between set theory and type theory is that in set theory one can form quotient sets for arbitrary equivalence relations" who needs it anyway
03:35:24 <kmc> is the quotient set the set of equivalence classes?
03:35:24 <shachaf> elliott: more favourite than.......................... http://r6research.livejournal.com/27071.html
03:36:56 <elliott> you can do quotient types they just have to be different I think
03:36:59 <Bike> it's cool how i'll apparently never find any foundation ever completely intuitive
03:37:01 <elliott> maybe nobody has worked out all the details yet
03:37:16 <Bike> o well i'm just a bikeologist
03:37:24 <shachaf> Bike: How did you initially come to #esoteric, anyway?
03:37:25 <elliott> but I'm pretty sure you don't have to give in to the axiom of choice for them :P
03:37:38 <Bike> shachaf: i think sgeo.
03:38:36 <elliott> copumpkin: you should play our new game
03:38:42 <Bike> "it was recently shown by Cohen that an affirmatie answer to the question is also consistent" wow this is pretty old
03:38:43 <elliott> it's trying to convince kmc to come back to #haskell some more!
03:39:13 <shachaf> elliott: kmc will come to #haskell if he wants to
03:39:26 <Sgeo> kmc, that's for bringing Bike here?
03:39:26 <Bike> we can hask if we want to, we can leave our friends behind
03:39:37 <copumpkin> kmc: hey, wanna come back to #haskell? I'll give you +v
03:39:58 <copumpkin> that's basically like a million bucks
03:40:29 <kmc> copumpkin: maybe later
03:40:39 <Bike> you know i think something i liked about taocp was: no fucking foundations
03:40:46 <Bike> just billions and billions of combinatoric identities
03:40:50 <Bike> all math books should be like that imo.
03:41:00 <elliott> Bike: i think you'll find that foundations rule and everything on top is boring as hell
03:41:24 <Bike> you should do reverse mathematics instead
03:41:32 <Bike> sort of involves foundations + is crazy + isn't foundations
03:41:51 <Bike> what if you did it with type theories instead of set theories
03:41:55 <Bike> "be an innovator"
03:42:34 <elliott> kmc: "learn lisp or ocaml along with haskell" -- #haskell
03:43:02 <Bike> learn snobol or ia32 along with haskell
03:43:29 <Sgeo> elliott, erm... the lisp bit was my fault >.>
03:43:48 <mnoqy> what the heck is metaprogramming and who needs it
03:44:00 <mnoqy> id say things in #haskell but heck no im not doing that
03:44:08 <Bike> it's where you incessantly make jokes about "i never meta [thing] i didn't like" automatically
03:45:11 <shachaf> haskell/11.05.04:12:42:05 <monqy> C++ exists. this is a bad design decision.
03:45:20 <mnoqy> o god dont grep for me
03:45:23 <mnoqy> stop it stop it stop it
03:45:24 <mnoqy> stop it stop it stop it
03:45:47 -!- mnoqy has left.
03:46:00 <shachaf> i already stopped grepping :'(
03:46:12 <Bike> maybe you shouldn't grep in the first place
03:46:19 <Bike> maybe i should skip the set theory stuff and get ti hilbertian spaces
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03:51:01 <ion> @ask shachaf That was not a question.
03:51:19 <Sgeo> shachaf, even if it's a three letter language? >.>
03:51:49 <Sgeo> Oh, there are actually good three letter languages like Tcl
03:51:53 <Sgeo> And Lua I guess
03:52:07 <shachaf> how about bashing Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
03:52:17 <Bike> imo that would be worth a kickban
03:52:28 <ion> bankicks are better.
03:52:39 <shachaf> elliott kickbanned someone today "it was weird"
03:53:09 -!- sprocklem has joined.
03:53:31 <ion> Are you sure that was the order?
03:53:50 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [+o elliott] by ChanServ
03:53:50 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- fwe was kicked from #haskell by elliott [fwe]
03:53:51 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [+b *!*ssjsj@31.205.67.*] by elliott
03:53:51 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [-o shachaf] by elliott
03:53:51 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [-o elliott] by elliott
03:54:00 <shachaf> My favorite part was the part where he -oed me.
03:54:17 <ion> Curious. Those lines reached me in a bankick order.
03:54:28 <Sgeo> http://enet.bespin.org/
03:54:36 <Sgeo> What's the difference between that and Tcp?
03:54:39 <ion> It’s almost as if IRC doesn’t preserve global ordering!
03:54:46 <Sgeo> Oh, that's in the FAQ
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04:02:54 <elliott> hey Bike annoy me until isleep
04:03:10 <shachaf> Bike: talk about linguistics
04:03:30 <Bike> so, have you heard about call/cc being used in linguistics
04:03:51 <shachaf> oh boy i'm getting irritated already
04:04:03 <shachaf> if elliott is anything like me he'll go to sleep straight away
04:05:51 <Bike> i guess the idea is something about continuations being isomorphic to xbars
04:06:57 <elliott> Bike: i feel as if you are serving shachaf more than i
04:07:15 <shachaf> elliott: Bike is serving me more than you're serving me?
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04:07:34 <Bike> how do you feel about computable reals not being compact
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04:08:51 <Bike> or: http://python-history.blogspot.com/2009/03/problem-with-integer-division.html
04:09:08 <Bike> i dunno i assume the more i talk about anything the more annoyed you'll get b/c you hate bicycles
04:10:07 <elliott> "So, originally you couldn’t add an int to a float, or even an int to a long. After Python was released publicly, Tim Peters quickly convinced me that this was a really bad idea" fuck
04:10:16 <elliott> just backtrack on your only good decision ever or whatever
04:11:11 <shachaf> Bike: I don't hate bicycles!
04:11:18 <shachaf> Bike: Why is your nick "Bike", anyway?
04:12:02 <Bike> um i wasn't talking to you
04:12:07 <Bike> elliott's the h8r
04:19:52 <kmc> elliott: eh i'm not a fan of implicit conversions, but there is a real usability issue there that shouldn't be ignored
04:20:39 <kmc> it was definitely a mistake to have integer division truncate, though
04:20:43 <kmc> and one they've fixed in python 3
04:22:04 <Bike> This is one of the most important steps right here. WEAR CLOTHES! I can not stress this enough. Some of us enjoy naked gaming, but this is one of the comforts we have to give up in exchange for a streamlined pizza ordering process.
04:22:17 <elliott> kmc: well i would be okay with "implicit conversions" if they actually worked ~like mathematics~ but that's sort of an impossible goal
04:22:34 <elliott> i.e. if 1+0.5+0.5 was 2 and that 2 behaved "as an integer" wherever the distinction is relevant
04:22:39 <elliott> upcasting to float is just silly
04:23:14 <Bike> ide/theory: math is impossible
04:23:36 <kmc> elliott: i hate to say it but there's some appeal to JavaScript's solution
04:24:01 <Bike> make everything floats?
04:24:41 <elliott> something like a mathematica-ish "everything is an expression and only done 'numerically' where precision can be maintained and then things like 'is an integer' is just a (possibly-undecidable) predicate" or whatever could work okay
04:25:03 <elliott> Bike: you're not being annoying enough yet btw
04:25:14 <shachaf> elliott: can i be annoying
04:25:21 <Bike> god since when do you have standards for being annoyed
04:25:23 <kmc> Bike: yeah, or more generally having only one numeric type
04:25:28 <shachaf> (not asking whether i should, just whether i can)
04:25:33 <kmc> only rationals would be p. cool
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04:25:39 <kmc> fuck the square root of 2
04:25:42 <Bike> i dunno if i like that because it varies by application etc
04:25:44 <shachaf> kmc: cyclotomic numbers hth
04:25:52 <shachaf> kmc: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/cyclotomic/0.3.1/doc/html/Data-Complex-Cyclotomic.html
04:25:59 <kmc> of course you could ask for an approximation of sqrt of 2 to within IEEE 754 double precision anyway
04:26:00 <elliott> rationals with just dumb approximations for things like sqrt could work.....
04:26:06 <Bike> i like how doing math is like the first thing programming was for and we still haven't agreed on how to do it
04:26:14 <Bike> elliott: imo we should use continued fractions
04:26:22 <kmc> the first thing programming was for was killing nazis
04:26:45 <kmc> shachaf: that's nice
04:26:58 <Bike> or maybe just algebraics
04:27:00 <elliott> Bike: continued fractions are cute as hell
04:27:04 <Bike> do we need transcendental numbers, really? imo no.
04:27:11 <kmc> what are they actually
04:27:26 <kmc> "the rational field extended with nth roots of unity for arbitrarily large integers n" i guess
04:27:46 <Bike> "In number theory, a cyclotomic field is a number field obtained by adjoining a complex primitive root of unity to Q, the field of rational numbers."
04:27:50 <Bike> i guess that's straightforward enough.
04:28:12 <Bike> how are they represented?
04:28:34 <elliott> you don't care about me at all
04:28:34 <shachaf> data Cyclotomic = Cyclotomic { order :: Integer , coeffs :: M.Map Integer Rational } deriving (Eq)
04:28:45 <shachaf> elliott: you're being really annoying right now btw
04:28:49 <elliott> kmc: its sure that microcontroller are not suitable for functionnal programming
04:28:50 <Bike> haha as a polynomial, awesome.
04:28:53 <shachaf> elliott: maybe direct your annoyingness at yourself instead of at Bike
04:28:53 <elliott> microcontroller have not enough ram for recursion
04:29:49 <Bike> good representations of polynomials are something i should understand better really
04:31:57 <shachaf> hey Bike do you know the puzzle where you come up with some polynomial where all the coëfficients are nonnegative integers and tell me its value at any (positive) point and then i ask you for its value at another point
04:32:10 <Bike> yeah, i think.
04:38:41 <shachaf> kmc: do you like algorithm, data structure, special thing, other paradigm...
04:39:03 <Sgeo> shachaf, isn't that related to that secret sharing thing? I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to
04:39:17 <shachaf> Sgeo: I don't know what secret sharing thing, but probably not.
04:39:18 <Sgeo> With sufficient points, you learn the polynomial, with insufficient points, you learn nothing
04:39:38 <shachaf> I only need to ask for one point.
04:39:43 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir's_Secret_Sharing
04:40:06 <Sgeo> Oh, then I have no idea
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05:05:18 <Bike> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/88757/nice-well-orderings-of-the-reals agh
05:06:37 <tswett> Shamir's Secret Sharing sounds like a spell in DC:SS.
05:09:05 <Sgeo> And here I thought "well-ordering of the reals" meant something incredibly trivial and obvious
05:09:17 <Bike> lol how'd you think that
05:09:39 <Sgeo> I have no idea what "Lebesgue measurable" means
05:10:04 <tswett> Ooh, I know what it means. Uh, almost. Lemme think.
05:10:42 <Bike> the lebesgue measure of an interval is just the high minus the low.
05:10:49 <Bike> then you build up unions, etc.
05:10:59 <Bike> then you run into vitali sets and become the unabomber.
05:11:02 <Sgeo> So how is it a Boolean?
05:11:15 <tswett> First, there's this thing called the "outer measure" of a set.
05:11:21 <Bike> who the hell said anything about bools
05:11:21 <Sgeo> "Question: is it equiconsistent with reasonable large cardinals that there is a well-ordering of the reals which - as a relation on R2 - is Lebesgue measurable?"
05:11:30 <kmc> tswett: re shamir: yes
05:11:34 <Bike> what does that have to do with bools
05:11:39 <shachaf> http://shachaf.net/what-about-this-channel.txt
05:11:46 <kmc> zero-knowledge proofs would be a good RPG power as well
05:11:58 <Sgeo> "This well-ordering is Lebesgue measurable" vs "This well-ordering is not Lebesgue measurable"
05:12:03 <tswett> So let's say that a "boxing" of a set S is a countable set T of closed boxes, such that the union of T is a superset of S.
05:12:21 <Bike> Sgeo: that's whether you /can/ measure it, i.e. that it has a measure, not what that measure is.
05:12:38 <Bike> vitali sets are non-measurable, so's the well-ordering (as a relation in the usual construction of relations)
05:12:54 <tswett> The measure of a boxing is just the sum of the sizes of all of the boxes. The outer measure of a set is the infimum of the measures of all of its boxings.
05:13:03 <Sgeo> I'm going to go to sleep
05:13:06 <Bike> named after a guy named Vitali.
05:13:46 <tswett> Now, for all sets that have Lebesgue measure, the Lebesgue measure is equal to the outer measure. And a set is Lebesgue measurable if and only if it has a Lebesgue measure.
05:13:58 <tswett> So the only remaining question is: what does it mean for a set to be measurable?
05:14:19 <tswett> And the answer is, uh...
05:14:43 <Sgeo> I'm going to get some sleep. Sleep off the sleep deprivation drunk
05:14:51 <Sgeo> Whuch is different from actual drjnk
05:14:52 <tswett> I dunno. Lemme look it up.
05:15:00 <Sgeo> I don't like 'actual' stuff very much
05:15:40 <Sgeo> I don't do genetic manipulation of actual animals, I don't get actual drunk
05:15:51 <Bike> missing out imo
05:16:02 <Bike> have you considered getting mutants drunk
05:16:10 <tswett> Okay. A set S is measurable if and only if for all sets A, the outer measure of A is the outer measure of A \ S plus the outer measure of A intersect S.
05:17:24 <Sgeo> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/137657/is-there-a-well-ordering-of-the-reals-measurable-or-not?lq=1
05:17:29 <Sgeo> I'm even more confused now
05:17:41 <tswett> Oh hey, I got the Nice Question badge for this question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11870884/vim-says-no-mouse-support-but-only-when-i-run-git-commit
05:18:02 * Sgeo 's brain elided the word 'Nice'
05:18:11 <Sgeo> So, Question badge...
05:18:38 <Bike> "Is there a well-ordering of the reals after all, measurable or not?" lolololol
05:18:57 <shachaf> Do you get a badge at 50 answerpoints?
05:18:58 <Bike> Sgeo: if you want to talk about it before you sleep, what's confusing
05:19:18 <Sgeo> Bike, how the answer isn't trivially yes
05:19:41 <Bike> Ok, so, what's a well ordering?
05:20:30 <Sgeo> How there could exist two reals, a and b, for which none of (a < b) (a > b) (a = b) is correct. I guess there's more to it, such as consistency when c is introduced?
05:20:41 <Bike> That's not a well order.
05:20:43 <shachaf> Bike: you know the sorcerer's apprentice? it's kind of like that
05:20:44 <Bike> That's just a total order.
05:20:58 <Bike> A well order is a total order + every subset has a least element.
05:21:46 <Sgeo> Rationals aren't well-ordered then either, I think
05:21:48 <Bike> < isn't a well order on the reals. For example, consider the nonzero positive reals.
05:22:01 <tswett> Yeah, the usual ordering on the rational orders isn't well.
05:22:03 <Bike> But, if you have the axiom of choice you can show that a well order does exist.
05:22:07 <Bike> scandalous, I know
05:22:10 <tswett> Nor is the usual ordering on the integers.
05:23:01 <shachaf> Hmm... Does the C spec actually specify there can't be more than 2^(CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *)) distinct values of type void *?
05:23:45 <Bike> does the C spec ever talk about cardinalities of types
05:24:01 <shachaf> Well, the question is whether C can be Turing-complete this way.
05:24:41 <Bike> would that include those int ptr things
05:24:44 <Fiora> it's okay to access a void* pointer as a bunch of uint8_t, right? by aliasing rules
05:24:53 <Fiora> so you could use that to show that constraint applies
05:24:56 <lifthrasiir> I think it is totally valid to limit the possible values of void* to 32...
05:25:14 <lifthrasiir> hmm, wait, 32 is too small, let's say it'd be 4096.
05:25:59 <Fiora> shachaf: like, if sizeof(void*) is x, and you access it as a series of x char values, then each char can have at most 2^CHAR_BIT values, so....?
05:26:23 <Fiora> I don't know, just a guess >_<
05:26:35 <Bike> How many uint8_t do you need
05:26:36 <shachaf> Can you actually access it as a series of x char values, I mean?
05:26:39 <lifthrasiir> Fiora: not exactly, since some representations of void* can be declared invalid. same goes for integers.
05:26:39 <Bike> sizeof(void*)?
05:28:01 <lifthrasiir> Fiora: let me quote a footnote in C99: In particular, if == is defined for type T, then x == y does not imply that memcmp(&x, &y, sizeof (T)) == 0.
05:28:07 <Fiora> lifthrasiir: it can be an upper bound though, right?
05:28:22 <Fiora> like it can't be a lower bound, but it can be an upper one, which is what shachaf asked for, right? or did I misunderstand
05:28:50 <Fiora> shachaf: void *y; char *x = (char*)&y; I guess?
05:29:23 <shachaf> Fiora: Well, sure you can write that code. I'm not sure whether it's actually allowed.
05:29:27 <lifthrasiir> yeah, it is guaranteed that a conformant C program cannot access the infinite memory (but it can access the arbitrarily large memory).
05:29:40 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: Guaranteed where?
05:29:59 <lifthrasiir> uh, sorry, wait a min, I may have misread the spec,
05:30:08 <lifthrasiir> I thought intptr_t is mandatory but it wasn't
05:30:18 <Fiora> intptr_t is mandatory in C99, I think?
05:30:24 <lifthrasiir> (any integer types including intptr_t are guaranteed to be finite)
05:30:37 <Fiora> but like, intptr_t is just "a type big enough to hold any pointer", isn't it? like, it's allowed to be bigger than void*
05:30:54 <shachaf> Well, it's still an upper bound, like you said.
05:30:57 <lifthrasiir> yes, so I thought it is an ultimate upper bound.
05:31:15 <shachaf> I guess if you're allowed to cast to intptr_t and back that's enough...
05:31:18 <Fiora> it could be larger than 2^(sizeof(void*)*CHAR_BIT)... right...?
05:31:40 <shachaf> The goal was to figure out whether you can make a Turing-complete implementation of C, though.
05:32:15 <lifthrasiir> hmm, sizeof() is guaranteed to return a finite result (the value of the result is implementation-defined, and not an undefined behavior)
05:32:44 <Fiora> sorry, I didn't realize the context
05:32:52 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: void * has a finite sizeof.
05:33:06 <shachaf> The question was whether via a tricky reading of the rules you could have more than that many void * values.
05:33:22 <shachaf> (Well, in particular infinitely many.)
05:33:39 <shachaf> The intptr_t argument seems convincing, I guess.
05:34:18 <shachaf> Hmm, my stackoverflow question is up to 50 votes.
05:34:20 <lifthrasiir> since C requires every non-bit-field values ("objects" in the spec) to be stored as an array of bytes of CHAR_BIT bits
05:34:50 <lifthrasiir> such representation is explicitly called an "object representation"
05:34:58 <lifthrasiir> and should exist for any non-bit-field values
05:35:31 <lifthrasiir> (in fact, this also prohibits a native implementation of C in ternary computers)
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05:46:29 <kmc> hey there are four operating RBMK reactors (Chernobyl design) about 233 km from Helsinki
05:50:11 <kmc> and 70 km from St. Petersburg
05:50:28 <Bike> are they like, upgraded
05:50:40 <kmc> don't know
05:51:00 <kmc> it's a fundamentally unsafe design
05:52:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK#Design_flaws_and_safety_issues
05:52:56 <kmc> "based on 1950s Soviet technology and optimized for speed of production over redundancy, the RBMK was designed and constructed with several design characteristics that proved dangerously unstable when operated outside their design specifications"
05:52:58 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK#Design_flaws_and_safety_issues
05:55:20 <kmc> soviet power plus irradiation of the whole country
05:56:28 <kmc> the link mentions a few post-chernobyl improvements
05:58:22 <kmc> not that comforting
05:58:55 <Bike> "Legasov's death from suicide, " uh, whoa
06:01:34 <Bike> "Scram is usually cited as being an acronym for safety control rod axe man"
06:02:12 <Bike> «When I showed up on the balcony on that December 2, 1942 afternoon, I was ushered to the balcony rail, handed a well sharpened fireman's ax and told, "if the safety rods fail to operate, cut that manila rope."» haha
06:02:28 <kmc> the life of a grad student
06:03:00 <kmc> "Although Koehler did not serve as a rope-cutting control rod axe-man, he was responsible for dumping a bucket of aqueous cadmium solution into the reactor if reactor period entered into the sub-optimal range"
06:03:04 <kmc> "the sub-optimal range"
06:08:08 <oklopol> "at which point the rods would fall by gravity into the reactor core"
06:09:06 <oklopol> i'm not in the same article anymore.
06:09:30 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scram i'm in this one in case you aren't doing the exact same random walk.
06:10:02 <oklopol> i didn't get there from the link but from googling what you said.
06:11:50 <oklopol> weird cultural difference i guess.
06:12:40 <oklopol> really there's never a need to link something if the other person happens to have google
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06:58:20 <kmc> what / why
06:58:56 <shachaf> oh i made it for a different channel but then i decided not to spam
06:58:59 <kmc> what is it tho
06:59:02 <kmc> also i think i saw it before
06:59:10 <shachaf> this might be a new version
06:59:30 <shachaf> (not to spam "that channel" i mean...................well this channel might be unspammable)
06:59:53 <shachaf> kmc: when are you inventing the esolang "Main Page."..............................
07:00:04 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:00:14 <kmc> later / neer
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07:59:50 <oerjan> <Bike> the school i'm enrolled in it super hilly, to the extent that there's a place called Johnson Flats, which is not flat and is on a hill <-- wait aren't you in luxembourg i'm confuse
08:00:33 <oerjan> or at least somewhere european without english as first language
08:01:41 <oerjan> canada is not somewhere european without english as first language, olsner
08:02:27 <kmc> isn't Bike in washington state usa
08:03:40 <oerjan> qwest.net seems to be owned by centurylink, which looks distinctly us
08:03:40 <olsner> oerjan: ok, sorry for trying :(
08:04:07 <oerjan> kmc: I'VE BEEN DECEIVED
08:06:37 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan made the neighbour prediction before taneb said he lived in northumberland <-- i think north (east?) england had been mentioned, though
08:08:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24031
08:09:57 <Taneb> I had said Northern
08:10:08 <Taneb> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-07-12#195258oerjan
08:12:40 <oerjan> was just looking for that
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08:20:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastaquotes: not found
08:20:59 <HackEgo> 973) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
08:30:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28558
08:31:04 <oerjan> wtf there are no atriq quotes
08:32:00 <oerjan> i can only conclude that atriq is your bumbling hyde personality
08:32:18 <Taneb> Maybe atriq is the Jekyll!
08:32:29 <oerjan> anyway, not very eloquent
08:32:51 <Taneb> Or maybe I just didn't use atriq as much
08:32:55 <oerjan> wait i just wondered...
08:33:31 <oerjan> no there cannot be any trailing space because it wasn't made by nick completion
08:33:53 <Taneb> I didn't do `pastequotes atriq because I knew there weren't any
08:33:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16568
08:34:29 <oerjan> this cannot be right either
08:34:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2234
08:35:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27739
08:35:51 <oerjan> apparently there really are no quotes where Taneb is followed by space
08:36:01 <oerjan> sadly, this doesn't help with atriq
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08:40:08 <oerjan> <Taneb> Nobody knows what happened to Facekicker for the past 8 years, though
08:40:28 <oerjan> are we _really_ absolutely sure they're different elliotts twh
08:40:42 <Taneb> Yeah, Facekicker's actually an Eliot
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08:41:40 <oerjan> we might assume facekicker went on to a promising career in either kung fu movies or crime.
08:46:05 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> if you google elliott hird it's a mix of elliott and a kitchen planner
08:46:21 <oerjan> clearly his blog needs more posts hth
08:52:40 <oerjan> `addquote <ion> “Haiers Medical-Circular Stapler For Rectal Prolapse And Hemorrhoids.wmv” /me refrains from clicking <olsner> good choice <ion> Yes, i’m pretty happy about it.
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08:52:44 <HackEgo> 1056) <ion> “Haiers Medical-Circular Stapler For Rectal Prolapse And Hemorrhoids.wmv” /me refrains from clicking <olsner> good choice <ion> Yes, i’m pretty happy about it.
08:52:58 <HackEgo> 2013-06-20 08:02:27: <kmc> isn't Bike in washington state usa
08:53:08 <HackEgo> 2013-06-20 08:53:04: <shachaf> `seen shachaf
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09:03:15 <shachaf> http://modernjavascript.blogspot.com/2013/06/monads-in-plain-javascript.html
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11:19:04 <HackEgo> dedda1994: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:52:30 <ion> shachaf: This is best monad tutorial.
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16:12:45 <elliott> does anyone know about the identify-msg IRC CAP
16:14:55 <Bike> sounds like bullshit
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17:21:50 <tswett> If you have a bunch of groups, all of different sizes, then the groups are totally ordered by order.
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17:25:41 <oerjan> tswett: that's like totally rad
17:25:50 <olsner> actually, hello *everybody*
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17:26:05 <Bike> hello everybody except clog and elliott
17:26:17 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/mcdonalds-considering-franchising-restaurants-afte,32897/
17:26:58 <tswett> Hello, everybody in all possible worlds.
17:27:51 <olsner> wow, that's awefully inclusive of you
17:27:58 <Bike> The world is changing, and frankly we’re running out of family members who speak Mandarin
17:31:10 <oerjan> btw did you know mcdonalds isn't a trademark in scotland, and they need the actual clan's permission to use it?
17:32:14 <Gregor> That explains why they only sell the McHaggis Quarter Pounder with Bladder there.
17:32:58 <elliott> fun fact: McDonald's was originally named cDonald's, after the theorem. the famous arches were originally circular.
17:33:46 <elliott> oh i guess using "circular" ruins that
17:34:01 <oerjan> there's a cDonald theorem?
17:34:20 <Bike> haven't you seen look around you.
17:34:31 <Bike> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cDonald's%20Theorem
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17:34:50 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J9MRYJz9-4#t=24s
17:36:08 <Bike> i love how they pronounce "cDonald"
17:38:43 <oerjan> hm i'm wondering if what i said was actually true.
17:39:14 <oerjan> the following looks like a counterargument: "The company has threatened many food businesses with legal action unless it drops the Mc or Mac from trading names. In one noteworthy case, McDonald's sued a Scottish café owner called McDonald, even though the business in question dated back over a century (Sheriff Court Glasgow and Strathkelvin, November 21, 1952)."
17:40:30 <Gregor> MacGregor's Quarter Pounder with Scotch
17:43:33 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the clan thing might have been established later
17:49:24 <oerjan> hm looks more and more dubious
17:49:57 <oerjan> which makes me wonder where i first read it
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18:26:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Fortunately, there's no requirement at all for "did you know that X?" statements to actually be true.
18:26:52 <oerjan> s/Fortunately,/did you know that/ hth
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18:35:51 <elliott> ion: hi do you know about identify-msg CAP
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18:37:53 <ion> I know now.
18:38:40 <elliott> but do you know enough to answer my questions about it
18:39:02 <ion> Let me travel to the future to find out.
18:44:13 <fizzie> It's a cap, and when you equip it, it may randomly identify items hth
18:46:27 <ion> fizzie: Sorry, no. It only identities monosodium glutamate.
18:49:15 <oerjan> sounds like something triangle and robert could have used
18:56:42 <Taneb> Why the hell do I like PHP on Facebook
18:59:16 <Taneb> Well, I don't any more
19:03:52 <Bike> php has a facebook?
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19:27:07 <kmc> meet hot single in YOUR area who like PHP
19:28:07 <elliott> meet hot shot young hustler jesus in your area
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19:34:35 <Fiora> https://www.facebook.com/PHP wow
19:35:14 <Bike> "Yeah! Not a day to soon. Death to C# and java B)"
19:35:50 <Bike> the changelog's a bit scary
19:35:52 <Bike> Added ARMv7/v8 versions of various Zend arithmetic functions that are implemented using inline assembler
19:36:04 <ion> I have three FB friends who like PHP. D-:
19:36:11 <Bike> oh man they added finally. finally
19:36:16 <Fiora> Wow, they're already doing ARMv8 stuff
19:36:23 <kmc> every time someone mentions Zend i think of Zond
19:36:41 <Bike> kneel before zend
19:36:52 <kmc> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N1_rocket
19:36:56 <Bike> "Added support for using empty() on the result of function calls and other expressions" huh?
19:37:03 <kmc> "Each of the four attempts to launch an N1 failed; during the second launch attempt the N1 rocket crashed back onto its launch pad shortly after liftoff and exploded, resulting in one of the largest artificial non-nuclear explosion in human history"
19:37:13 <Fiora> wooow. 30 main engines @_@
19:37:33 <Bike> "Fixed bug #64515 (Memoryleak when using the same variablename 2times in function declaration)" um
19:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> entertainingly those engines are actually the ones being used in the 'new' nasa cargo rocket they were showing off a while back
19:37:44 <kmc> "After detecting the inoperative fuel pump, the automatic engine control shut off 29 of 30 engines, which caused the rocket to fall."
19:37:48 <kmc> good programming imo
19:38:13 <Bike> oh, wait, i've heard of N1, isn't it the one that vaporized half the engineers in the soviet union
19:38:21 <elliott> 20:36:55 <Bike> "Added support for using empty() on the result of function calls and other expressions" huh?
19:38:26 <elliott> php has a lot of nice things which only work on variable names
19:38:34 <Fiora> isn't 30 engines like a redundancy nightmare? @_@ that's a lot of parts
19:38:37 <Bike> elliott: good, good
19:38:41 <elliott> you have to assign stuff to variables a lot to be able to like index them as arrays or whatever
19:38:42 <Fiora> if just one fails it'd throw things off balance, right?
19:39:11 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: oh
19:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> if you have 30 then it's not that big a torque and you might be able to correct with your control systems
19:39:27 <kmc> yeah i thought it was an R-7 test
19:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> that's what they did when one of the engines in the falcon 9 test failed
19:39:36 <Bike> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=64523 what the /hell/
19:39:49 <Bike> When destination folder of a copy haven't enough place, copy reports success instead of failure.
19:40:22 <Bike> Fixed bug #64895 (Integer overflow in SndToJewish)
19:41:01 <elliott> kmc: can i hire you to work out how to get a good deal on EC2 for me
19:41:10 <Bike> i think it's about the hebrew calendar?
19:41:20 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: gazetteer get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki v @ ? .
19:41:26 <Bike> @google jdtojewish
19:41:27 <lambdabot> http://php.net/manual/en/function.jdtojewish.php
19:41:32 <Bike> what the hell is girl19
19:41:48 <Bike> "Converts a Julian day count to a Jewish calendar date"
19:41:50 <Bike> yeah i need that.
19:42:08 <kmc> that should definitely be in the default global namespace
19:43:05 <Bike> man it doesn't even report a bad value, it just hangs
19:43:10 <Bike> how great is that
19:43:33 <Bike> «That is, you cannot do `SELF::CNST` or `SELF::$VAR` or `SELF::METHOD()`. But it's possible to use `constant("SELF::CNST")` or `call_user_func` with uppercase `SELF` keyword.»
19:44:06 <Bike> «if use '@', you can call function in a string substitution context.» help
19:44:35 <kmc> paging elliott
19:44:44 <elliott> i should put a highlight on @
19:44:46 <Bike> elliott: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=61681 you need this feature, imo
19:45:45 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? .
19:45:54 <Bike> this seems dumb
19:45:55 <lambdabot> I've always found myself unequal to the intellectual pressure of programming
19:46:01 <lambdabot> girl19 wonders what "discriminating hackers" are.
19:46:04 <lambdabot> I have stolen about 50 msn and yahoo accounts
19:46:04 <lambdabot> am I supposed to be frantic with terror and anxiety?
19:46:17 <Bike> y'all need a db of all these damn injokes
19:46:33 <Bike> oh hey. "This extension is now deprecated, and deprecation warnings will be generated when connections are established to databases via mysql_connect(), mysql_pconnect(), or through implicit connection: use MySQLi or PDO_MySQL instead"
19:46:36 <shachaf> elliott: hey i have a lambdabot proposal "can you guess what it is"
19:46:43 <Bike> i wonder how many security bugs that would remove
19:46:52 <kmc> it's great how there's no uniform db api in php
19:46:58 <kmc> totally different functions for mysql, postgres, etc
19:47:06 <elliott> wonder whether i should remove the unique prefix behaviour along with the specialcasing of unique spell corrections
19:47:15 <Bike> Generator is an internal class, so there shouldn't be an ability to create it by hand. However, the Generator class doesn't have a private constructor and instance of it can be created via ReflectionClass.
19:47:19 <Bike> Solution: add a private constructor for this class to prevent instantiation (like for Closure class).
19:47:22 <Bike> awesome and rad
19:47:32 <shachaf> I was thinking more along the lines of removing @girl19.
19:47:51 <Bike> Fixed bug #60097 (token_get_all fails to lex nested heredoc)
19:48:19 <elliott> i was ignoring your proposal actually
19:48:26 <elliott> this is something i was already looking into!!
19:48:26 <Bike> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=64765 these are so great
19:49:27 <Bike> ok uh, this SndToJewish thing is listed as being fixed, three different times
19:49:42 <kmc> what list are you reading
19:50:04 <Fiora> is Snd... "standard"? it looks like "sound"
19:50:07 <Bike> the changelog http://www.php.net/ChangeLog-5.php
19:50:32 <Bike> http://www.scip.ch/en/?vuldb.9021 oh my god.
19:50:40 <Bike> this is my new favorite bug
19:51:25 <Fiora> that sndtojewish thing resulted in a critical exploit? geez
19:51:51 <elliott> what do you mean there are reasons not to stuff every library into the core of your language
19:52:01 <Fiora> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=54096 geez these are really weird
19:52:39 <Bike> php has a built in julian to hebrew calendar conversion function, fiora. it is beyond weird.
19:53:04 <Fiora> I mean like I feel like I'm missing 90% of this
19:53:06 <Bike> "comparsion of incomplete DateTime causes SIGSEGV" good, good
19:53:12 <Fiora> "PHP defines -0 as an int", but wouldn't -0 just resolve to 0?
19:53:20 <Bike> not in php it wouldn't
19:53:32 <Fiora> and there's this filter function that "checks if values are ints", but if you wanted to see if a float was int, wouldn't you just do if( floor(f) == f )?
19:53:42 <Fiora> ... well I guess there's infinities and things
19:53:58 <Fiora> ... if( (float)(int)f == f )?
19:54:17 <Fiora> Bike: um... explain? >_<
19:54:26 <Bike> i have no idea
19:54:33 <Bike> i don't know php, i just see endless insane bug reports
19:55:02 <Fiora> the whole "this is an interpreted language but it works differently on 32-bit and 64-bit" seems really weird too
19:55:18 <Bike> there was one bug where the put in inline amd64 assembly but didn't conditionalize it
19:55:34 <kmc> Fiora: sadly ghc haskell has that too
19:55:38 <kmc> Int is platform-dependent size
19:56:17 <elliott> kmc: well ghc is primarily a compiler so depending on your interpretation of "that"
19:56:27 <elliott> though it has many traits people relate to "interpreted languages", of course
19:56:49 <Bike> isn't int platform-dependent in C
19:56:53 <kmc> yeah I meant for high level languages
19:56:54 <Fiora> does... does php have data types?
19:57:19 <Bike> i mean having a type that's defined to have a max that varies by platform seems fine to me
19:57:20 <elliott> the only thing worse than platform-dependent sized Int is platform-independent sized Int
19:57:40 <Bike> plus doesn't the haskell standard say it has to be at least 2^31 or whatever
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19:57:50 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, but like, it has builtin functions that work differently on 32-bit and 64-bit which seems really weird
19:57:55 <elliott> Bike: makes semantics of haskell programs much less clear, causes portability problems, severely hurts distributed computing
19:57:55 <Bike> Fiora: not as you know them. not as any of us know thelm
19:57:55 <kmc> the mandated range is just -2^29 .. 2^29-1
19:58:12 <Bike> how's it hurt distributed computing
19:58:21 <kmc> allowing 32-bit implementations to reserve 2 bits for tagging
19:58:43 <elliott> Bike: because you have a single program where multiple parts of it run on heterogeneous machines
19:58:54 <elliott> so Int means different things at different points of your program
19:58:58 <elliott> and can store different values
19:59:06 <elliott> and will get messed up communicating between agents that disagree about its size
19:59:09 <Fiora> so like, for portability it's better to use Integer?
19:59:13 <elliott> so you have to completely avoid Int if you want sanity
19:59:21 <elliott> Fiora: or the fixed-size Int32/Int64
19:59:44 <Fiora> does Int32 fit in 32-bit? or like, does it not fit because of tag bits?
20:00:03 <elliott> so it is actually a pointer to a 32-bit integer
20:00:13 <elliott> (except GHC can automatically unbox it when you use it as a strict field of a data type with optimisations and blah blah blah)
20:00:16 <elliott> (so it's not quite as bad as it sounds)
20:00:29 <Fiora> oh, so *everything* is boxed?
20:00:36 <shachaf> It's a pointer to a machine integer, actually -- just the operations on it truncate to 32 bits.
20:00:37 <elliott> more or less (GHC has unboxed types that are fiddly to use)
20:00:49 <elliott> if you have like a tight numerical loop though GHC will usually be able to unbox everything "at the start"
20:00:50 <shachaf> Yes, only boxed values are first-class in Haskell in general.
20:00:56 <elliott> and then work with unboxed values for the loop itself
20:00:57 <Fiora> so like, if I have an array of 1 million ints, will it be 1 million boxes, or a box with 1 million things?
20:01:07 <elliott> there are both boxed and unboxed arrays
20:01:13 <elliott> so it can be either depending on which is better
20:01:16 <shachaf> If you use an unboxed array it'll have 1 million Ints.
20:01:26 <Fiora> and a boxed array will have 1 million unboxed ints?
20:01:40 <shachaf> No, it'll have a million boxes.
20:01:48 <Fiora> oh. I thought ints were boxed
20:02:00 <elliott> er, I think we mixed up something at some point
20:02:02 <Bike> an "unboxed array" means a boxed array of unboxed things, probably
20:02:04 <shachaf> "(un)boxed array" means it's an array of (un)boxed things.
20:02:13 <Fiora> so an unboxed array of 1m ints is 4 megabytes
20:02:17 <elliott> an unboxed array of Ints knows what Ints are a box around
20:02:20 <Fiora> and a boxed one would be 8 megabytes?
20:02:20 <kmc> plus epsilon
20:02:34 <Bike> Fiora: depending on sizes of boxes etc.
20:02:35 <elliott> Fiora: well, boxed values have like additional pointers in addition to the actual data they store
20:02:36 <shachaf> Probably more than 8 megabytes...
20:02:43 <Bike> boxed arrays can have lazy values can't they
20:02:47 <elliott> to facilitate lazy evaluation and such
20:02:53 <kmc> and it means access has a lot more indirection in a boxed array
20:03:01 <kmc> Bike: right
20:03:06 <shachaf> I think a boxed Int takes two machine words, and the pointer in the array takes an additional machine word.
20:03:11 <elliott> (fwiw, advantage of boxed arrays is that they can store everything, whereas unboxed arrays need to know things about what they store, and you can store thunks (unfinished computations) in boxed arrays, whereas in unboxed arrays you can only store evaluated results, so no fancy laziness tricks)
20:03:13 <kmc> every element is a pointer to a heap object, which can be a thunk
20:03:23 <Fiora> oh, boxed values have more than just the value itself plus a pointer to it?
20:03:31 <Bike> well since this is haskell
20:03:35 <Bike> there are lazy values
20:03:55 <Bike> which like kmc said are thunky
20:03:57 <elliott> right it's important to note that an Int value might be a pointer to *some code*
20:04:00 <elliott> that you haven't evaluated yet
20:04:08 <elliott> but an unboxed integer is just a plain old integer
20:04:13 <kmc> Fiora: a 'boxed value' is a heap object, or a pointer to one. heap objects have a uniform structure, the first word is always a pointer to an 'info table'
20:04:24 <kmc> and then they have zero or more data fields which can have different sizes
20:04:33 <kmc> the uniformity is what allows polymorphic code to work
20:04:41 <Fiora> ah... so it'd be at least 12 megabytes
20:04:43 <kmc> you can force evaluation of a heap object without knowing its type
20:04:46 <Bike> elliott: but uh, when you say can store everything, they're uniformly typed anyway aren't they
20:05:01 <Fiora> I am probably looking at this totally wrong and thinking of haskell as if it was like C <.<
20:05:03 <shachaf> Unless some of the Ints are shared, anyway.
20:05:10 <elliott> you might find the STG machine paper interesting if you're interested in the details of how this stuff works, though I think it's fairly different in GHC nowadays (in particular their "spineless tagless G-machine" has tags???)
20:05:14 <Bike> yeah you can't really reason about storage very well, can you?
20:05:20 <elliott> Bike: yeah but I mean you can make an Array a for any a
20:05:22 <shachaf> Perhaps http://spl.smugmug.com/Humor/Lambdacats/13227630_j2MHcg/960526161_XwKHSBM#!i=960526161&k=XwKHSBM&lb=1&s=L can clarify.
20:05:25 <kmc> it doesn't have the kind of tags they're talking about not having in the STG paper
20:05:32 <elliott> whereas like an unboxed array will require some condition on what "a" is so it knows how to store it unboxed
20:05:33 <kmc> GHC doesn't use tag bits to distinguish pointers from integers
20:05:39 <Bike> somebody here linked me to a paper where whatshisname was like "you can reason about space! weird, huh"
20:05:41 <kmc> it does use tag bits on pointers to mark things which are already known to be evaluated
20:06:02 <elliott> it's not impossible to reason about space usage of Haskell programs, but it's definitely less simple than in C or whatever
20:06:44 <Bike> there's also sharing, like if you store 4+7 into an array a million times it'll all use the same thunk?
20:06:54 <elliott> assuming you store the "same" 4+7
20:06:54 <kmc> into a boxed array yeah
20:07:02 <elliott> it'll store the same pointer a bajillion times
20:07:04 <kmc> let x = 4+7 in listArray [0,1000] (repeat x)
20:07:32 <elliott> 4+7 is sort of a bad example since it might get like constant folded and stuff but the principle, yeah
20:07:35 <Bike> oh, does ghc not pick out common subexpressions like that
20:07:42 <elliott> it does it very conservatively
20:07:47 <elliott> because you can introduce bad space leaks that way
20:07:49 <shachaf> elliott: Well, it'll get shared whether it's an unevaluated thunk or not.
20:07:49 <Bike> yeah i figured but it's easier to say than (foo y)
20:08:13 <elliott> shachaf: does GHC not like preallocate a bunch of Ints for small values?
20:08:14 <Bike> well anyway, to sum up, fiora, php is dumb
20:08:18 <elliott> which would distort the idea
20:09:14 <Bike> Fixed bug #43177 (Errors in eval()'ed code produce status code 500).
20:09:41 <Fiora> Bike: um, unrelatedly, http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/404.pdf
20:09:53 <kmc> sharing is p. cool. in Haskell if you implement a binary tree with an insert function, in the most obvious naive way, you get a cool persistent data structure where new versions of the tree share nodes with old ones
20:10:04 <Bike> Fiora: wassat.
20:10:21 <kmc> and this isn't some crazy compiler optimization either, it's p. much fundamental to the language's data model
20:10:21 <shachaf> kmc: that requires changing your notion of "obvious"
20:10:25 <Fiora> it's a super lightweight block cipher
20:10:50 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:11:01 <Fiora> "With regard to throughput, we note that the fastest reported software implementation of AES-128 available on an Atmel 8-bit microcontroller has a cost of 125 cycles/byte, and uses 1912 bytes of flash and 432 bytes of SRAM [BOSC10]. For a slight decrease in speed, the same
20:11:05 <Fiora> implementers offer a more balanced implementation with a cost of 135 cycles/byte, using 1912 bytes of flash and 176 bytes of SRAM. Our high-speed Speck128/128 implementation has comparable throughput, at 139 cycles/byte, but uses only 388 bytes of flash and 256 bytes of SRAM."
20:11:30 <Fiora> they have a hardware optimized one and a software optimized one
20:11:34 <Fiora> the hardware optimized one can be done in like, ~1300 gates
20:11:41 <shachaf> that's only 69.5 bicycles/byte!
20:12:13 <Bike> god, half these bugs are about segfaults
20:12:37 <kmc> almost like the PHP interpreter is a C program written by idiots
20:12:44 <Bike> "Fixed bug #63369 ((un)serialize() leaves dangling pointers, causes crashes)"
20:13:43 <Bike> Fixed bug #62896 ("DateTime->modify('+0 days')" modifies DateTime object) <-- what.
20:14:56 <kmc> also laziness is important if you want good performance from persistent data structures
20:15:10 <Bike> alright "segfault" is in here 276 times
20:16:21 <Bike> that has a lot of "default" though i guess whatever
20:16:50 <HackEgo> 2010-02-14.txt:20:49:06: <Gregor> Sweet, I made a megahal brain that segfaults >_>
20:17:42 <Bike> Fiora: oh man NSA is this Top Secret
20:18:21 <Fiora> no it's public I think
20:18:23 <Fiora> like just published
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20:33:45 <oerjan> i think this is that disaster Bike and Phantom_Hoover referred to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedelin_catastrophe
20:34:37 <Bike> yeah, that's the one.
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20:44:50 <oerjan> Jeg ser, jeg ser... / Jeg er visst kommet på en feil klode! / Her er så underlig...
21:01:17 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/10-giant-cocks,32276/ attn kmc
21:01:57 <kmc> oh these aren't that big
21:02:15 <kmc> ok the elephant cock is pretty big
21:03:44 <Bike> how does the nsa thing keep getting worse. helllllp
21:06:28 <Bike> just looking through @0xabad1dea's feed
21:06:51 <Bike> "Speaking your username aloud on a phone call to another country is evidence the person behind the username is foreign" etc
21:07:16 -!- Vorpal has joined.
21:09:24 <Bike> hey. wait a minute. ELLIOTTCABLE is here.
21:09:29 <Bike> what's happening
21:11:35 <Bike> "Ahhhh youtube 502 ahhhhh I cant reach my touhous"
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21:19:57 <Taneb> Work done is difference in kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is mass times velocity is force times distance. These are both measured in Joules
21:20:35 <Fiora> Bike: see, you just have to have *plush* touhous
21:20:39 <Fiora> then you can reach them whenever !
21:20:40 <Taneb> Power is energy by time, it is measure in Js^-1 or Watts
21:21:06 <Bike> are you taking a kinetics class
21:21:18 <Bike> Fiora: what if the plush is kidnapped
21:21:25 <Taneb> Bike, hopefully past tense. The exam is in less than 11 hours
21:21:50 <Fiora> nobody's kidnapped mine!~
21:22:15 <Fiora> https://room208.org/booru/data/9160f5fe9e4332617661b5d4f548dcd4.jpg seee they're all safe and sound
21:22:36 <Taneb> Whoa, power is also force times velocity?
21:23:36 <Bike> Fiora: i'm pretty sure there are so many you could easily lose one
21:23:37 <fizzie> THIS SUMMER... THE COCKS COLLIDE (it was a video)
21:24:08 <Fiora> I haven't lost any!
21:24:10 <Fiora> I keep good track of my friends
21:24:59 <Bike> then why is there a meduka there who did she eat
21:24:59 <shachaf> what about non-plush friends
21:25:25 <Fiora> I'm only responsible for friends who live in my apartment <.<;
21:25:45 <shachaf> Fiora: How often do they double?
21:25:56 <Taneb> And potential energy is mass times height times the gravitational constant
21:25:59 <Fiora> let's see. I had like half as many ~12-16 months ago ish?
21:26:10 -!- constant has changed nick to trout.
21:26:41 <shachaf> Fiora: OK, so let's say it's like Moore's law.
21:27:13 <Taneb> shachaf, it seems a little quicker than Moore's law
21:27:24 <Fiora> I think it's more like an S curve?
21:27:34 <Bike> what is the optimal plushie count
21:27:55 <Fiora> I'm... not sure there is one in particular?
21:27:55 <shachaf> Bike: one more than whatever you have right now hth
21:27:56 <Taneb> Where the hell is Hitchin
21:28:20 <Bike> well you said s curve
21:28:31 <Bike> what's the asymptote!
21:28:46 <Fiora> well I'm mostly running out, I don't have many touhou ones I don't have I think
21:28:49 <Fiora> and most are like, permanently out of sto k
21:28:55 <Fiora> there's new ones but only like, every reitaisai
21:28:59 <Bike> i see like three reimus
21:29:10 <Bike> can't you trade two of them for a more obscure touhou
21:29:36 <Fiora> you can make custom plushies but it's a lot of sewing work and stuff
21:30:27 <Bike> marisa -> maribel let's make it happen
21:31:09 <Fiora> I'd have to make new clothes and stuff <:
21:31:11 <fizzie> I remember something about http://www.geocities.jp/igarashi_lab/plushie/index-e.html from a SIGGRAPH.
21:32:00 <Fiora> I totally should have gotten all the madoka plushies when they were still in stock though
21:32:26 <nortti> I'm away for an hour and people start talking about touhou-plushies, what is this?
21:33:19 <elliott> nortti: are you somehow... surprised by #esoteric's drifting topic
21:33:23 <elliott> haven't you been here forever
21:33:59 <Bike> have you been touhou forever
21:34:00 <shachaf> Fiora: There are four people in ##fiora now!
21:34:05 <Fiora> nortti: https://room208.org/booru/data/9160f5fe9e4332617661b5d4f548dcd4.jpg um, I posted this
21:34:13 <shachaf> You wouldn't want us to talk about you behind your back, would you?
21:34:30 <Bike> wow that doesn't sound like a creepy threat at all shachaf
21:34:59 <Fiora> it's about four years of accumulated plushies! they're good for filling the rest of a queen size bed
21:35:16 <Bike> can you just make the bed out of plushies
21:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you need a queen size bed! double beds are bourgeoisie
21:35:33 <Bike> uh for all the plushies
21:35:50 <Fiora> it was like $50 or $100 extra? and I like being able to roll around and sprawl out and stuff
21:35:57 <Fiora> and I kind of have a bad tendency to somehow steal all the blankets
21:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think you will find that big beds are the best, hth.
21:36:20 <Fiora> elliott knows his stuff
21:36:23 <Bike> take that, yourself!!
21:36:45 <Fiora> I can basically lie down on it in any direction and fit
21:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i slept in a tiny bunk bed since i was like 3 and you don't hear me complaining!
21:36:51 <kmc> also it's hard to fit more than two people in a bed smaller than a queen
21:36:53 <Bike> check your short privilege, fiora
21:36:54 <shachaf> Fiora: have you considered getting a cat hth
21:37:01 <Fiora> I have! I'm also allergic
21:37:04 <Fiora> but I stlil want a cat
21:37:12 <Bike> get a pet you're not allergic to then
21:37:12 <shachaf> have you considered that life without a cat is no life at all
21:37:16 <Bike> like a tarantula
21:37:21 <Fiora> I'm... not good with sipders
21:37:23 <kmc> though i think it's hard for more than two people to /sleep/ in the same bed, period
21:37:29 <Bike> how about a snake
21:37:38 <Fiora> Bike: you tall people can like, get a king or something anyways
21:37:58 <Bike> at school orientation there was one guy tall enough that he didn't fit in the dorm beds
21:38:03 <shachaf> kmc: Reading _The Door into Summer_ made me want to live with cats again. :-(
21:38:14 <Taneb> Fiora, I have a double bed but I curl up small
21:38:14 <Bike> (he was like seven foot probably)
21:38:15 <kmc> california king
21:38:27 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to become king of california
21:38:34 <elliott> what's the biggest bed in the universe #drugz
21:38:36 <shachaf> i'll vote for you for king hth
21:38:58 <shachaf> elliott: the universe is my bed hth
21:39:07 <kmc> shachaf: that's not how king works
21:39:11 <kmc> well sometimes but rarely
21:39:17 <Fiora> plushies are good though, I tend to cling to them in my sleep instead of the blankets
21:39:22 <Fiora> though sometimes Iflail and knock them onto the floor to
21:39:37 <shachaf> kmc: when i'm king i'll change how king works
21:39:44 <Taneb> I could probably quite comfortably sleep in this spinny office chair
21:39:48 <elliott> im googling "huge bed" now #drugz
21:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, do you have to put them back or you feel guilty
21:40:01 <Fiora> I don't actually leave them all on there all the time <.< that was just for the picture
21:40:07 <elliott> these beds arent very huge
21:40:09 <Fiora> it's usually a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle messier
21:40:40 <elliott> these are just fairly big beds
21:40:50 <Bike> i'm pretty sure i should make autonomous plushies
21:40:55 <Bike> so they put themselves back on the bed
21:41:00 <Bike> other advantages: easy to film horror movies
21:41:01 <fizzie> Are there official definitions of what these "queen" and "king" sizes are?
21:41:05 <Fiora> so like, toy story?
21:41:07 <kmc> fizzie: yes
21:41:14 <Fiora> fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bed_sizes#Standard_North_American_sizes
21:41:16 <Bike> like toy story but soft
21:41:23 <elliott> why is there furry porn and a picture of some socks. this is the worst image search ever
21:41:27 <Bike> and possibly with jetpacks, because climbing is a pretty hard behavior.
21:41:28 <elliott> im going to try "gigantic bed" instead
21:41:31 <kmc> fizzie: also did you see my terrifying fact about RBMK reactors
21:41:35 <kmc> and did you already know
21:41:46 <Bike> terrifying RBMK fact: RBMK is real
21:41:46 <elliott> oh it suggested "biggest bed in the world" lets go with that
21:41:46 <fizzie> Fiora: Aw, no ISO beds.
21:42:06 <elliott> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/05/07/article-1178094-04D70DB8000005DC-311_634x466.jpg now THATS what i call a big bed
21:42:07 <Taneb> Isn't there an ISO standard on how to make tea?
21:42:10 <fizzie> kmc: I did not see any fact about RBMK reactors at all.
21:42:20 <Bike> elliott: but big enough?? imo, no.
21:42:21 <Taneb> elliott, that's what I call dailymail.co.uk
21:42:23 <kmc> fizzie: there are four operational RBMK reactors about 230 km from Helsinki
21:42:39 <kmc> no it is the opposite of good
21:43:02 <kmc> Taneb: yes ISO 3103, although it's not designed to produce the most delicious tea, just a standard tea for comparative purposes
21:43:34 <fizzie> kmc: Are they in St. Petersburg or something?
21:44:09 <elliott> The method consists in extracting of soluble substances in dried tea leaf, containing in a porcelain or earthenware pot, by means of freshly boiling water, pouring of the liquor into a white porcelain or earthenware bowl, examination of the organoleptic properties of the infused leaf, and of the liquor with or without milk, or both.
21:44:19 <Taneb> Daily Mail is the newspaper that says "life is getting worse! porn everywhere! immigrants everywhere stealing our jobs! cancer everywhere! foxes everywhere! too many badgers! not enough badgers! immigrants buying our factories and giving us jobs!"
21:44:29 <elliott> The work was the winner of the parodic Ig Nobel Prize for Literature in 1999.
21:44:31 <fizzie> elliott: Unsurprisingly it's originally a British Standard.
21:44:32 <kmc> fizzie: yeah nearby
21:45:02 <kmc> immigrants stealing our badger cancer
21:45:07 <elliott> @tell mnoqy attn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3103
21:45:15 <kmc> http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/
21:45:21 <Taneb> Anyway, goodnight!
21:45:24 <shachaf> elliott: http://www.keepbanderabeautiful.org/earth-hospital-bed-i.jpg
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21:45:43 <Bike> looks uncomfortable though.
21:46:07 <fizzie> "400 - Bad Request" that's a "bad", not "bed". (I don't know why happen.)
21:46:42 <elliott> alt. no speech recognisers
21:47:42 <Bike> wait. i recognize speech.
21:50:05 <fizzie> I believe our common bed widths here are 80, 90, 120, 160 and 180 cm.
21:50:56 <elliott> ideally you would have a room that's just all bed
21:51:00 <Fiora> those numbers make more sense than ours <.<
21:51:04 <elliott> i don't really see much of a use for non-bed areas of a room
21:51:13 <Fiora> but you need an area for your dresser, a hamper
21:51:16 <Fiora> an area to change clothes, a mirror
21:51:27 <Fiora> maybe a nightstand and alarm clock and stuff
21:51:29 <elliott> these sound like less efficient uses of space than more bed
21:51:36 <Fiora> and like, a pathway to exit the room and maybe a bathroom
21:51:36 <elliott> I guess you could make one of the walls out of mirror
21:51:45 <fizzie> Fiora: The 120 cm size is kind of a weird, I think, since it's really quite wide for one, but also quite narrow for two. (Still, it's not *that* wide.)
21:52:04 <Bike> what if you just replaced the floor with a mattress.
21:52:09 <elliott> Bike: this is my thinking yes
21:52:14 <Fiora> I wonder why the "twin" is the smallest size
21:52:23 <Fiora> Like, fitting two people on a twin sounds a little uncomfortable
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21:53:14 <elliott> fitting two people in any bed is kind of tenuous imo
21:53:18 <fizzie> Also I recently saw the layouts of the apartments they're building nearby, and the smallest ones have bedrooms where the bed fills the entire width of the room; there are separate doors out from the bedroom (into the living room area) from both sides of the ends of the room, but you can't go around the bed without going to another room.
21:53:33 <Fiora> I could probably fit 2 or 3 of me in my bed
21:53:37 <shachaf> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/27810/why-do-americans-call-single-beds-twin-beds
21:53:50 <Bike> Fiora: but do you
21:53:54 <shachaf> Fiora: hey are you doing cloning now
21:54:09 <elliott> the question is why you would want to
21:54:10 <Fiora> well that's kind of the thing I don't have a cloning machine
21:54:22 <Bike> haven't you ever read cavlin + hobbes
21:54:34 <Fiora> having a friend would be nice
21:54:43 <fizzie> Our current bed is 160 cm, except you could argue it's not, since in reality it's two 80 cm beds with an extra mattress (160 cm wide, ~5 cm thick) on top to get rid of the gap in the middle.
21:54:49 <shachaf> Fiora: you would be too shy to make friends with yourself
21:55:05 <Bike> elliott: flanking maneuevers, sleeping in shifts to avoid being snuck up on
21:57:29 <Fiora> I'm not sure... maybe you're right, shachaf ...
21:58:16 <shachaf> i mean, it would be Fiora^2 shyness
21:59:35 <Fiora> at least I'd know a priori that she was just as much an emotional wreck as I am!
22:00:43 <shachaf> do you feel more comfortable around people who are emotional wrecks?
22:01:02 <Fiora> I don't really know
22:01:07 <Bike> well, everybody's an emotional wreck, so that works out pretty conveniently.
22:01:31 <shachaf> Bike: ChanServ isn't an emotional wreck!
22:02:33 <Bike> have you even talked to chanserv
22:02:40 <Bike> chanserv isn't just a slab of meat
22:03:30 <shachaf> what is ChanServ a slab of
22:03:41 <Bike> slabs of meat.
22:04:07 <shachaf> elliott: i failed to find a bed bigger than that one
22:04:40 <Fiora> hmm. I'd have someone to talk with assembly code and stuff about
22:05:32 <Bike> if i had clones i'd specialize, so that we would have different things to talk about.
22:05:45 <Bike> but still keep some genericism because doing one thing is boring.
22:05:46 <Fiora> yeah, that would be pretty nice
22:05:47 <shachaf> you can talk with us about that!! hth
22:05:58 <Fiora> like if I can have a fiora who knows all kinds of stuff in other topics and she can teach me lots of things
22:06:16 <Fiora> like neurobiolo-- oh, wait, I already have one of those :3
22:06:19 <shachaf> Bike: if you had a clone you would probably fight to the death "you're just that aggressive"
22:07:13 <Bike> Fiora: alas i'm not as cute or plushful.
22:07:24 <Bike> also yeah i'd probably have at least like, nine clones learn german swordfighting.
22:07:26 <Fiora> pff you are pretty cute <.<
22:07:44 <Bike> "but plushful, nah, i OWN you on that front motherfucker"
22:08:50 <Fiora> geez plushieful has nothing to do with -me-
22:09:29 <Bike> then how do you explain allegations that your bed is filled with plush
22:09:46 <Fiora> but like if I had a friend that friend coujld enjoy the plushies too
22:10:34 <Bike> well plush is a universal enjoyedment
22:13:28 <Bike> ...all the o fucking serious
22:13:35 <Bike> all the other kinds of swordfighting?
22:14:17 <lambdabot> *** "germane" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
22:14:17 <lambdabot> adj 1: relevant and appropriate; "he asks questions that are
22:14:29 <shachaf> hmm from now on we say "germane" instead of "on-topic"
22:14:46 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing
22:14:50 <Bike> don't you read gunnerkrigg!
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22:17:26 <shachaf> Higgledy Piggledy / Bicycle Bicycle / pushed his clone button and / heard it go Boink. // Now he can not only / neurobiologize / but also transmogrify; / quoth Bike: "oink oink".
22:18:24 <Bike> bikes don't make that noise >:
22:18:50 <shachaf> they do when you transmogrify them
22:21:30 <fizzie> Ooh, fancy: a 7-plug extension cord, configured such that one hole is a "master", and when you turn off the device connected to that hole, it cuts off four other holes; the idea being that when you turn off your TV, the other related things like externally powered subwoofers and whatnot will also automatically power off.
22:22:05 <fizzie> I don't know what they'll invent next!
22:23:06 <kmc> There is no Great Stagnation.
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22:23:26 <Bike> is Great Stagnation the thing where we close the patent office because everything's been invented
22:23:30 <kmc> fizzie: at university they gave us a bunch of those because green! but most of us didn't have the right use case for them, so they were just a nuisance
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22:24:32 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Stagnation
22:24:46 <kmc> i haven't read this
22:25:14 <fizzie> kmc: My wife's mother was trying to give one away, due to lack of the right use case; it's very possible she got it from somewhere because green.
22:25:21 <kmc> i just know "There is no Great Stagnation" (from his blog) as a cheeky way to praise a consumer tech gizmo of questionable utility
22:25:23 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drugz i like how this exists
22:25:47 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drukqs
22:26:12 <Bike> that reminds me of http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139464/j-bradford-delong/the-second-great-depression which i read today because literally needing pills just isn't depressing enough
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22:27:10 <fizzie> "James has stated that the title is not related to drugs, and is 'just a word [he] made up.'" that's what they always say.
22:27:56 <kmc> yeah right
22:28:00 <kmc> lucy in the sky with diamonds
22:33:41 <fizzie> Can you get Verizon in prizon?
22:34:16 <elliott> kmc: i think i'm addicted to drugz
22:34:33 <kmc> welp time for an intervention
22:34:37 <fizzie> Sunrise over the verizon. (The joke is, Sunrise is an operator too.)
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23:42:38 <shachaf> a stitch in time saves nine
23:42:41 <shachaf> From the practice of mending a small tear in cloth before it becomes a larger one.
23:43:31 <shachaf> i always thought it was related to _A Wrinkle in Time_??????????
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00:04:35 <ais523> this is mostly an English-speaking channel
00:04:45 <ais523> although sometimes it's Finnish or Norwegian instead
00:05:02 <angeli> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:05:12 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:05:15 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, that's Norwegian, right?
00:05:45 <angeli> por que no entiendo nadita
00:06:16 <ais523> I doubt most people here understand what you're saying
00:06:34 <angeli> hablenmen en castellano
00:08:50 <kmc> `? bienvenido
00:09:31 <kmc> `ls wisdom
00:09:32 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
00:09:36 <kmc> `pastewisdom
00:09:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
00:09:53 <kmc> `? welcome.es
00:09:56 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
00:10:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^752129 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
00:10:29 <elliott> how come it doesn't say liating when you do it
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00:11:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^752129 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
00:11:08 <ais523> kmc: we actually have a welcome in Spanish?
00:11:20 <kmc> `run echo ¡ | iconv -f iso8859-1 | iconv -f iso8859-1 | iconv -f iso8859-1 | iconv -f iso8859-1 | iconv -f iso8859-1 | iconv -f iso8859-1
00:11:21 <elliott> kmc: is mosh bugged or did HackEgo get a cosmic bit flip
00:11:22 <HackEgo> ÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂá
00:11:34 <kmc> ais523: yeah i added it a while back
00:11:36 <ais523> I guess that's an actually /useful/ welcome variant, so…
00:11:44 <elliott> looks like it was "listing" both times according to the logs
00:11:53 <elliott> also it's showing as "if/bin/ls" here
00:11:57 <elliott> maybe it isn't mosh's fault
00:12:01 <elliott> but i don't know who else to blame
00:12:15 <kmc> adios angeli
00:12:53 <kmc> un poquito
00:13:25 <angeli> y por que todos todos hablan ingles
00:13:30 <ais523> kmc: do you think angeli is trying to contribute usefully to the channel, but failing due to the language barrier?
00:13:41 <shachaf> wow in one (1) week (seven (7) days) kmc will fly to california
00:13:42 <ais523> or just not doing anything useful?
00:15:04 <HackEgo> Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
00:15:28 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice.
00:15:51 <kmc> angeli: porque muchos de nosotros vivimos en estados unidos, y los otros hablan idiomas impopulares, como la finlandesa, y hablan ingles tambien
00:16:07 <elliott> are you asking whether they're from hexham
00:16:21 <shachaf> elliott: come on you can read that
00:16:22 <ais523> hmm… I can tell kmc's comments are more useful than angeli's even despite them both being in Spanish
00:16:30 <shachaf> you don't need to know any spanish to be able to read that
00:16:39 <kmc> elliott vive en Hexham, UK
00:16:55 <elliott> i read the finlandesa part
00:16:57 <ais523> I think hexham UK is quite unlikely in angeli's case
00:17:02 <ais523> although hexham, spain is always possible
00:17:03 <fizzie> kmc: Are you calling my language impopulares, though!
00:17:19 <kmc> hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
00:17:30 <kmc> yo no se porque
00:17:30 * ais523 fails to see how "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" is useful conversation
00:17:36 <kmc> fizzie: si
00:17:45 <shachaf> ais523: Tell that to oerjan.
00:18:07 <elliott> `learn Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
00:18:08 <kmc> lenguajes de programación que se hacen para ser extraño más que útil
00:18:30 <kmc> hacemos extraños lenguajes de programación para la diversión
00:19:09 <kmc> el más conocido es http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck pero no es muy interesante en comparación con algunos otros
00:19:30 <kmc> angeli: tengo 25 años
00:19:36 <elliott> kmc: btw google translate suggests you referred to hexham as a "city"
00:19:39 <kmc> elliott: si
00:19:45 <elliott> kmc: which is a wonderfully overoptimistic word for it
00:20:00 <elliott> like calling two huts and a campfire a town
00:21:27 <kmc> yo vivo en Boston, Massachusetts pero voy a trasladar a California la próxima semana
00:21:48 <fizzie> elliott: Hexham has elliott's hut, Taneb's hut, and the campfire you use together (strictly scheduled in order to avoid accidentally meeting), right?
00:21:55 <kmc> angeli: ¿te gusta Venezuela?
00:22:23 <kmc> que tipo de logico
00:22:31 <ais523> fizzie: it's OK for elliott to accidentally meet Taneb, so long as they aren't in Northumberland at the time
00:22:40 <angeli> si me gusta es muy linda
00:23:52 <kmc> nordeste de EE.UU.
00:24:27 <kmc> 4 horas de nueva york
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00:25:55 <angeli> y porque todos hablan ingles
00:27:09 <angeli> apenas se decir hola en ingles
00:27:48 <kmc> ingles es dificil
00:29:12 <kmc> i wonder if you can do arbitrary computations with only iconv invocations
00:29:34 <angeli> ya te dije que no se hablar ingles
00:31:38 <ais523> kmc: wow, that's actually really close to something I've been doing in the last couple of days
00:31:47 <ais523> I've been writing a UTF-8/CP437 polyglot
00:32:21 <ais523> that uses backspaces, VT100 cursor motion commands, and exploiting the fact that things like "C2 A0" are two characters wide in CP437 but only one in UTF8
00:33:31 <kmc> adios etc.
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00:34:24 <Bike> i didn't know you knew spanish.
00:34:29 <kmc> un poquito
00:34:37 <kmc> i know enough to catch some of the mistakes google translate makes
00:34:43 <kmc> that's about it
00:34:47 <elliott> was that google translate + corrections
00:34:48 <Bike> the future measure of language comprehension
00:34:48 <ais523> I know small amounts of lots of languages
00:34:53 <ais523> due to watching so much foreign-language TC
00:35:01 <kmc> i took 4 years of spanish in high school but have forgotten most of it
00:35:07 <elliott> maybe in the future we will all get google glass to translate our sentences and then correct them
00:35:08 <kmc> certainly most of the vocabulary
00:35:08 <fizzie> Foreign-language Turing-complete.
00:35:10 <Bike> "I watch a lot of anime, so, like, I'm pretty fluent in Japanese"
00:35:15 <elliott> THE BABEL FISH OF THE FUTURE
00:36:45 <ais523> elliott: if you've never tried watching YouTube with speech recognition captions turned on, and automatic translation on the captions
00:36:47 <kmc> desu kawaii ^__^
00:37:05 <Bike> boku wa bike-chan desu. nande, desu ka?
00:37:21 <kmc> send pocky
00:37:30 <Fiora> watashi wa fiora-chan desu! kawaii desu ne~
00:37:44 <Bike> i can say "no, i mean the WEIRD porn" in over six japonic languages
00:37:47 <Fiora> bike I think we are drowning in irony
00:37:55 <kmc> best channel
00:37:57 <Fiora> like I think dave is going to come and tell us to stop
00:37:57 <Bike> (are there six japonic languages)
00:38:01 <Bike> (i don't think there are)
00:38:19 <kmc> shachaf for emperor
00:38:26 <Bike> Fiora: i thought you meant illflower was dave for a second
00:38:30 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> i can say "no, i mean the WEIRD porn" in over six japonic languages
00:38:34 <HackEgo> 1057) <Bike> i can say "no, i mean the WEIRD porn" in over six japonic languages
00:39:11 <Fiora> I wish shachaf-senpai would notice me
00:39:58 <kmc> Japan Man like Santa Claus except one difference: he stop at nothing to kill you.
00:40:37 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc0rhqezMH1qj5pqvo1_500.png bike has a GED in anime fyi
00:40:43 <elliott> time to ~upgrade my computer~
00:41:35 <shachaf> what have you gotten me into
00:41:36 <Bike> elliott: you mean buy a new one
00:41:38 <fizzie> "It was already broken when we arrived" is one of the (less than dozen) phrases in Russian they (anecdotally) teach to people on the train when the CS student organization has their traditional St. Petersburg trip.
00:41:46 <elliott> Bike: no i mean the Operation's System
00:41:55 <kmc> fizzie: haha
00:42:05 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I actually don't know how to say that in Hungarian
00:42:09 <Bike> thats a stupid queston
00:42:13 <Bike> i don't even know what i was thinking of
00:42:33 <elliott> Bike: it already said <Bike>, you don't have to repeat yourself
00:42:43 <Fiora> shachaf: um. I don't know
00:42:49 <ais523> elliott: please no random insults for no good reason
00:42:56 <ais523> this is #esoteric, not league of legends
00:42:59 <elliott> ais523: it's okay it's for bike
00:43:49 <Bike> ais523: it's ok elliott's a damned shit anyway
00:44:15 <ais523> break it up, you two (possibly three)
00:44:36 <Bike> yeah elliott, break it up, don't be so damn mean
00:44:40 <elliott> ok this upgrade will be a welcome respite from how oblivious ais523 is
00:44:59 <ais523> elliott: I'll happily admit I'm oblivious
00:46:14 * kmc turned $165 worth of coins into Amazon credit today
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00:46:42 <Bike> Fiora: hey i just realized this "gate equivalent" stuff is probably what i'll be doing in class. maybe i can implement SIMON :P
00:47:21 <kmc> gah moving involves doing so many things
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00:51:18 <Fiora> that sounds awesome
00:51:27 <Fiora> pikhq: yes I am a kouhai apparently
00:51:49 <Bike> it would be fun assuming i would have any idea what i was doing
00:52:05 <Fiora> geez you can like teach me stuff right
00:53:40 <Bike> did you take circuit desin in school?
00:53:53 <Fiora> I have a vague idea of like, how to make an adder
00:53:59 <ais523> I have an electronic engineering degree
00:54:03 <Fiora> we played a tiny bit with one of those things where you drag around wires and NAND gates at some point
00:54:03 <pikhq> Say, could someone do a DNS lookup on www.google.com?
00:54:05 <Bike> from. How Stuff Works.
00:54:26 <pikhq> I wanna test something. (my DNS is inexplicably not working)
00:54:26 <Bike> Fiora: yeah i did that in architecture class. i think this class is rather different from that one, thouh..
00:54:28 <Fiora> oh! and there was like a thing where I got to lay out a small adder with wires and metal layers and stuff
00:54:28 <ais523> pikhq: 173.194.66.105 and five other possibilities
00:54:31 <Fiora> with um... "Electric"
00:54:38 <ais523> all in 173.194.66.0/24
00:54:44 <Bike> i too enjoy Electric
00:54:57 <Fiora> and it had design rules and stuff
00:54:59 <Bike> wait do you mean physically or
00:55:07 <Fiora> nononono like digitally
00:55:08 <pikhq> Okay, I can ping that.
00:55:21 <Fiora> but apparentlythe stuff we did got used in a senior project where they did actually fabricate a chip?
00:55:24 <Bike> it'd be pretty metal if they let us make a toy CMOS or whatever thouh i doubt it
00:55:26 <pikhq> Holy *shit* the packet loss.
00:55:30 <ais523> pikhq: I normally use nethack4.org to bounce pings off to see if I'm online
00:55:30 <Fiora> basically they were like, pawning work onto frosh
00:55:32 <Fiora> and we were the frosh
00:55:35 <ais523> admittedly, that's because I own it
00:55:35 <Sgeo> `slist did someone do the slist thing yet I don't know
00:55:37 <HackEgo> slist did someone do the slist thing yet I don't know: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:56:03 <pikhq> ais523: The thing is, I can't do DNS lookups right now.
00:56:19 <Bike> either way i think this class will be more excititing than my other ones which are mostly Introduction to Broad Field
00:56:37 <Bike> and chemistry, which is hope you like punch card memorization, in my experience
00:56:39 <pikhq> I'm running a friggin' TCP stress test.
00:56:52 <ais523> Bike: chemistry is interesting when you get to the reason behind things
00:57:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, can't wait for the packets to get back from OUTER FRICKEN SPACE?
00:57:10 <ais523> like, understanding why the periodic table is the shape it is
00:57:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: Thank god I'm no longer doing that.
00:57:18 <Sgeo> (Note: Fully aware you might not be in that situation anymore)
00:57:37 <pikhq> Though less so than dialup.
00:57:44 <ais523> oh, satellite internet
00:57:50 <ais523> I thought you were exaggerating
00:57:51 <Sgeo> I love how the comedian that did that thinks that connecting by bouncing off sattelites in space is awesome, yet that's the worst way to get an Internet connection
00:58:00 <Bike> ais523: yeah but i did that in high school already soooo not high hopes exactly.
00:58:06 <Sgeo> ais523, pikhq used sattelite internet for some amount of time
00:58:20 <Bike> i thought pikhq lived in like
00:58:29 <pikhq> Bike: I did not at the time.
00:58:34 <ais523> Bike: he lives in the US
00:58:38 <Bike> did you have a pet bear
00:58:39 <ais523> which has famously bad internet
00:58:42 <Bike> did a bear have a pet you
00:59:39 <pikhq> And I was a couple miles away from DSL...
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00:59:56 <Bike> maybe i'll get to do like electrochemistry or something
01:00:06 <Bike> new and exciting ways to kill myself violently (that's what chemistry is for, right)
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01:02:01 <pikhq> Anyways, I'm trying to diagnose an apparently wonky cable connection.
01:02:36 <Bike> i sympathize :/
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01:03:29 <pikhq> God *dammit* the bastards don't let us change the settings on the modem. :P
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01:21:30 <elliott> o well, looks like my system is too fucked to upgrade
01:21:35 <elliott> guess i should reformat at some point
01:22:08 <myndzi> i can't come up with something good for the feet
01:22:23 <elliott> i really like that it adds to hackego's smiley
01:22:49 <Bike> `? does it really work
01:22:50 <HackEgo> does it really work? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:23:18 <myndzi> /\(([chars])_(?!\2)[chars]\)/ matches (._o)
01:23:21 <myndzi> but not with any unicodes
01:23:25 <myndzi> also i wonder what happened there
01:23:39 <myndzi> /\(([chars])_(?!\2)[chars]\)/ matches \(._o)/
01:23:47 <myndzi> hrmm back to troubleshooting
01:24:38 <myndzi> counting length of unicode characters derp
01:25:44 <elliott> anyway i blame all this on nobody buying me a new computer, imo
01:27:46 <elliott> especially Bike. as previously established, he's terrible.
01:29:25 <Fiora> you can't acquire your own?
01:29:50 <Bike> by "acquire" she means "steal"
01:29:54 <elliott> it's the principle of the thing!
01:30:01 <elliott> if Bike doesn't get me a new computer, how can I know he truly loves me.
01:32:37 <Fiora> I mostly mean buy <.< but also like
01:32:39 <Fiora> "convince parents to buy"
01:32:58 <elliott> well, if you think of it Bike is kind of like parents.
01:33:09 <elliott> and I'm trying to convince Bike to buy me a computer right now!
01:33:46 <Sgeo> Like a Raspberri Pi?
01:34:02 <Sgeo> Certainly is a computer
01:34:41 <Bike> sgeo's got a point
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01:36:26 <Fiora> bike doesn't have as much money as parents though
01:36:42 <Bike> what are you talking about, neuroscientists make mad bank.
01:37:11 <elliott> as in they literally make everyone who works at the bank mad
01:37:31 <elliott> btw when did Bike turn from a biologist into a neuroscientist
01:38:18 <ais523> they actually made a Pokémon spinoff where the humans evolved
01:38:22 <ais523> it is ridiculous, also awesome
01:39:10 <elliott> hmm I bet I could convince ais523 that it's morally correct to buy me a computer
01:39:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure there's much more to say, really
01:39:12 <Bike> yes, i want to hear about this.
01:39:18 <Bike> there's a lot more to say.
01:39:41 <ais523> basically, the plot has warriors forming emotional links with Pokémon; if it gets strong enough and it's the right Pokémon
01:39:51 <ais523> then it plays this animation with them fading back and forth, as usual
01:39:56 <ais523> and mostly they end up in new clothes
01:39:58 <ais523> and with new abilities
01:40:41 <ais523> well clothes have all the real power in an RPG
01:40:48 <ais523> humans exist only for the purpose of wearing them
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01:40:59 <Fiora> you mean pokemon ranger?
01:41:24 <ais523> Fiora: Pokémon Conquest
01:41:36 <ais523> Ranger doesn't have any human evolution, or even any Pokémon evolution
01:41:39 <Fiora> OH, pokemon conquest
01:41:45 <Fiora> wait, that had humans evolve? I don't remmber that
01:42:01 <elliott> did you know: humans evolve irl too
01:42:02 <ais523> Fiora: it happens once guaranteed in the main storyline (after the first attempt to battle illusio/terrera)
01:42:06 <ais523> the others are all optional
01:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, considering how shit it sounds i'm not surprised
01:42:17 <ais523> and normally happen when you reach a certain percentage with your perfect link
01:42:34 <Fiora> ... shit...? gosh pokemon conquest was great
01:42:35 <Bike> elliott: it takes, like, forever, though.
01:43:09 <ais523> it only works for storyline characters, and normally they have generic abilities beforehand, and customized abilities afterwards which are really powerful
01:43:12 <Bike> btw how did the "bike is a biologist" thing even start because i'm pretty sure i never described myself that way
01:43:32 <ais523> e.g. oichi goes from "sweet song" (restore 50 hp to each unit), to "soft light" (restore 100 hp + status to each unit)
01:43:48 <ais523> sweet song is broken enough as it is (although many units get it), so the upgrade is quite mindboggling
01:44:00 <ais523> sometimes the evolved ability has nothing to do with the original ability though
01:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd expect to get an extra arm or elbow-caps or something with a name like that
01:44:11 <ais523> err, skill, not ability, using the correct word is important! for some reason I don't really understand
01:44:24 <Fiora> it's more just like a class upgrade type thing
01:44:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12411
01:44:35 <ais523> who knows, it's Pokémon
01:44:38 <elliott> ais523: ok so, tell me how i could convince you that buying me a new computer is morally required
01:44:46 <ais523> it frequently misuses the word "evolution" really badly
01:44:51 <ais523> elliott: that might be immoral, though
01:44:52 <Fiora> pokemon conquest is kind of more like a pokemon-themed nobunaga's-ambition-type thing though
01:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i could rough him up with a pipe or something next time i'm in the midlands?
01:45:09 <ais523> Fiora: it literally is nobunaga's ambition with a Pokémon theme and mechanics
01:45:18 <elliott> 2013-04-04.txt:00:31:52: <shachaf> Bike is a biologist???????????????????????????????????
01:45:21 <elliott> 2013-04-04.txt:00:32:02: <Bike> a wannabe biologist
01:45:24 <Bike> thanks shachaf
01:45:26 <ais523> it's called "Pokémon + Nobunaga's Ambition" (appropriately translated) in Japan
01:45:27 <Fiora> wasn't it called pokemon x nobunaga's ambition in japan?
01:45:33 <Bike> elliott: not the same, imo.
01:45:35 <elliott> ais523: surely not divulging information about your morals isn't very lawful good
01:45:48 <ais523> elliott: but the information might be used for evil
01:45:53 <Bike> elliott: heyyyyy i mentioned aczel there
01:46:14 <elliott> ais523: no, I'll only use it to convince you to buy me a new computer for moral reasons
01:46:20 <elliott> therefore it will only result in you taking moral actions
01:46:27 <Bike> wow i talk about biology a lot rad
01:46:32 <elliott> as you can see, I'm being very transparent about the whole thing
01:46:53 <ais523> in the non-Japan version, it's not advertised as being in the Nobunaga's Ambition series because nobody had heard of it
01:46:57 <ais523> but they do have loads of references
01:47:08 <ais523> like stealing /all/ the non-Pokémon characters (except Hero/Heroine) from it
01:47:19 <Bike> `? conspirabiology
01:47:20 <ais523> and giving Nobunaga a (post-evolution) skill called Ambition
01:47:21 <HackEgo> conspirabiology is where moth colourings form a dot matrix display to send you subliminal messages.
01:47:29 <HackEgo> There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck.
01:48:15 <Bike> elliott: this log clearly shows you saying i'm "like, a biologist" before i say i'm anything.
01:48:37 <ais523> is Bike actually a biologist?
01:48:46 <ais523> also IIRC fucking elliott is illegal
01:48:55 <ais523> or used to be, at least
01:48:57 <Bike> isn't the age of consent 16 in northumberland
01:49:05 <Bike> elliott is eminently fuckable by eminent domain
01:49:07 <elliott> i've been fuckable for like almost a year!
01:49:15 <elliott> albeit in only one sense of the word
01:49:21 <Bike> also what i actually am is, an undergrad.
01:49:25 <Bike> worse than slime imo
01:49:32 <kmc> this conversation took a weird turn
01:49:38 <ais523> also, isn't "eminent domain" the US name for what's called "compulsory purchase" in the UK?
01:49:46 <ais523> whoops, I forgot that Fiora was a shipper
01:49:54 <Bike> she'll make you remember
01:50:01 <ais523> Fiora: no, I just envy you for it
01:50:20 <HackEgo> 450) <ais523> oerjan: I'm not imaginative enough to write truly great slash fiction
01:50:42 <Fiora> oh. I'm not either
01:51:18 <elliott> Fiora: i think you disappointed ais523
01:51:36 <Bike> but you know how you could make up for it? write elliott/kmc that makes the stars cry in joy
01:51:37 <Fiora> I can write fic but I'm probably really out of practice
01:51:48 <Fiora> and the problem with slash is it's porn and I absolutely can't write porn
01:51:53 <ais523> I wrote some NetHack fanfiction once
01:52:04 <kmc> it might be difficult because elliott and i have never seen each other and Fiora has never seen either of us?
01:52:23 <ais523> kmc: but you and elliott both actually exist
01:52:37 <elliott> kmc: love knows no barriers
01:52:38 <ais523> that's got to be some sort of advantage, most fanfiction is about characters who don't exist
01:52:56 <Bike> Fiora: /tasteful/ slash
01:52:59 <Bike> it's "erotic" not "porn"
01:53:06 <ais523> if all else fails, you can use the standard plots involving wormholes that are capable of connecting multiple continuities
01:53:20 <kmc> worm-gloryhole
01:53:22 <Fiora> Bike: okay, I can't write erotic fiction
01:53:45 <ais523> (the US and Hexham are different continuities, right?)
01:55:22 <shachaf> Bike: you're welcome (for what??)
01:55:24 <coppro> ais523: yeah, that's why this channel is full of plot holes
01:55:46 <ais523> now I want to write a continuity-based esolang
01:56:02 <ais523> like, it takes the form of a story, and has some sort of algorithmic method for automatically resolving continuity errors
01:56:19 <ais523> in order to form a loop, you'd have to write it such that resolving a contradiction in one part of it caused a contradiction in another
01:57:24 <elliott> why do i know so many people in california
01:57:37 <kmc> because california is great
01:57:43 <elliott> maybe i should go and visit (for reasons other than enabling elliott/kmc slash)
01:57:45 <coppro> and I don't think Canada is canon
01:57:47 <shachaf> elliott: because california is huge
01:58:04 <kmc> is is the most populous state in the US
01:58:07 <elliott> i think i view california as like the size of ireland
01:58:18 <elliott> instead of ireland's more balanced shape
01:58:27 <elliott> please don't tell me how much bigger california is than ireland
01:58:44 <ais523> hmm… including california in the story would be cheating
01:58:46 <shachaf> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=area+of+california+%2F+area+of+united+kingdom
01:58:47 <kmc> > 423970 / 84421
01:58:49 <ais523> because it's internally inconsistent
01:58:56 <shachaf> (that's not ireland, i know)
01:59:07 <elliott> yo remember when i said please don't tell me how much bigger california is than ireland
01:59:10 <kmc> > 423970 / 229848
01:59:15 <elliott> and shachaf says i'm mean!!
01:59:30 <ais523> elliott: I remember when Stephen Wolfram was demonstrating Wolfram Alpha in a seminar
01:59:36 <ais523> and asked it for the tides in Norwich
01:59:58 <elliott> i'm... waiting for the punchline
01:59:59 <kmc> If California were a country, as of 2012 it would have the 9th largest economy in the world
02:00:17 <shachaf> "woow california u'r slipping"
02:00:26 <ais523> elliott: well he didn't even notice that it picked an arbitrary nearby-ish coastal town to report on
02:00:29 <ais523> because Norwich is landlocked
02:00:41 <elliott> ps i know nothing about UK geology
02:01:01 <ais523> I know rather too much about the geography of East Anglia
02:01:12 <ais523> it's the county I spend the most time in, other than the West Midlands
02:01:17 <elliott> east anglia sounds like a body part
02:01:22 <ais523> and not even for the same reason each time
02:01:22 <elliott> like maybe it's in your throat
02:01:36 <kmc> i don't think too many body parts have cardinal directions in their names
02:01:51 <ais523> I think east anglia is mostly famous for being flat
02:01:56 <elliott> kmc: well that's what's interesting about the east anglia
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02:02:01 <elliott> it's essentially your body's compass
02:02:06 <elliott> because it maintains itself to always point east
02:02:06 <ais523> like, you can stand on top of a 2m high wall
02:02:19 <elliott> kmc: this is why, if your lose your throat, you're not very good at directions any more
02:02:26 <ais523> and be on the highest point for miles around, with your view limited only by the curvature of the Earth (rather than the more common being limited by high ground)
02:02:27 <kmc> makes sense
02:02:42 <ais523> they have watercourses cut which are just a couple of metres lower than the land
02:03:02 <ais523> it has some of the most repetitive areas to drive through in the UK :)
02:03:08 <mnoqy> shachaf: hey have you seen the new super mega todaY? "Chin"
02:03:22 <ais523> (not that I can drive)
02:03:35 <ais523> oh, it also has the A11, which is great
02:03:39 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
02:03:55 <ais523> mostly because it's used to test out new cats eyes replacements, for allowing drivers to see road markings in the dark
02:04:05 <ais523> there's a stretch that has like 8 or 9 different new experimental ones
02:04:14 <ais523> so it's quite fun to drive at night
02:04:42 <myndzi> apparently mirc understands utf-8 but pcre doesn't
02:04:51 <myndzi> seems to be on the right track now though
02:05:09 <ais523> finally, its coast is superior to weston-super-mare
02:05:11 <myndzi> \o/ \o/ \m/ \m/ _o/\o_ ಠ_ಠ
02:05:46 <myndzi> \o/ \o/ \m/ \m/ _o/\o_ ಠ_ಠ <o> ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:05:46 <myndzi> | | `\o/´ | | ¯|¯⌠ | |
02:05:46 <myndzi> /'\ /'\ | >\/< |\|/| º¯`\o
02:05:51 <myndzi> the cause of all this trouble :P
02:06:05 <ais523> this is the script that lead to myndzi not being signed up to Agora, right?
02:06:07 <kmc> it should complete c.c to a 7-eyed multiocular one
02:06:08 <myndzi> good news: got to clean the script up a little
02:06:29 <ais523> myndzi: do you not remember that?
02:06:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, why the fuck would you spend time in east anglia
02:06:37 <myndzi> kmc: i can't exactly edit the contents of YOUR message :P
02:06:38 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a different reason each time, often
02:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't it just there to be the butt of the geographic joke in alan partridge
02:06:45 <kmc> myndzi: no I mean
02:06:49 <ais523> frequently it's because it's on the way to cambridge
02:06:59 <myndzi> ais523: no, i don't think i've ever been likely to participate in nomic
02:07:06 <kmc> oh that's why I've been to East Anglia
02:07:09 <myndzi> but i have no idea why the script would prevent me (?)
02:07:13 <ais523> (the trains to cambridge from Birmingham go via East Anglia, for some reason, even though it isn't actually on the way)
02:07:24 <kmc> no I was going from London, doesn't make sense
02:07:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's a good question
02:08:22 <ais523> there's no obvious reason to build a railway line such that it overshoots its destination and then backtracks
02:08:57 <kmc> wait is Cambridge in east anglia
02:09:06 <ais523> not quite, it's close though
02:09:06 <kmc> wikipedia thinks so
02:09:17 <ais523> it is, unsurprisingly, in cambridgeshire
02:09:22 <elliott> myndzi: i second kmc's feature request
02:09:31 <kmc> "The University of Cambridge, established at the start of the 13th century and situated in the town of the same name, is East Anglia's best-known institution of higher learning, and is among the oldest and most famous universities in the world"
02:10:06 <ais523> hmm, apparently cambridgeshire is officially part of east anglia
02:10:23 <ais523> along with norfolk, suffolk, and essex, whichis what I thought was the official definition
02:10:33 <ais523> (this is the Wikipedia definition of "apparently", not the Reddit definition)
02:12:05 <Koen_> I remember in Couplings the girl saying "apparently" meant she was upset
02:12:34 <kmc> what's the reddit defn
02:12:35 <ais523> Koen_: here, "apparently" normally means "I've read this on Reddit recently"
02:12:48 <mnoqy> people read reddit?
02:12:53 <ais523> although it can also be used for "this is claimed to be true by Wikipedia"
02:12:59 <ais523> mnoqy: I read some of the subreddits, some of the time
02:13:14 <Koen_> I didn't know either of those definitions
02:13:16 <kmc> > drop 8 "San Francisco"
02:13:27 <ais523> Koen_: well they aren't really standard English
02:13:30 <shachaf> > splitAt 8 "San Francisco"
02:13:35 <Koen_> reader's digets used to call that city Frisco
02:13:59 <Koen_> ais523: I ain't really English neither so that's fine by me
02:14:16 <Koen_> I'VE GOT AN APPARTMENT WITH VIEW ON THE EIFFEL TOWER
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02:14:36 <Koen_> do you want me to say that again
02:14:45 <ais523> (I actually caught the las typo but let it in because muphry's law)
02:14:47 <Koen_> I'VE GOT AN APPARTMENT WITH A VIEW OF THE EIFFEL TOWER
02:15:00 <ais523> also my f key is not working properly
02:15:10 <ais523> are apartments hard to obtain in Paris?
02:15:23 <kmc> this is where I say something about how the Eiffel Tower is ugly and overrated
02:15:28 <kmc> in order to sound cool
02:15:32 <Koen_> well I don't own it I'm gonna be renting it
02:15:54 <Koen_> well rent half of it anyway, i'll have a room mate
02:15:57 <ais523> kmc: I have no idea whether the Eiffel Tower is underrated or overrated
02:16:11 <ais523> although I'd say that this conversation is reasonably good evidence that it exists
02:16:17 <Koen_> kmc: it's the eiffel tower. what more do you need?
02:16:18 <kmc> i've got an apartment in san francisco with a view of some hills
02:16:23 <ais523> but I think Koen_ is reasonably trustworthy in terms of existence of landmarks
02:16:45 <kmc> v. big ants maybe
02:16:57 <ais523> I live close enough to the edge of Birmingham that it's reasonable to just walk out of it, into countryside
02:17:05 <Koen_> ais523: I've got a vague memory of visiting it when I was a kid
02:17:12 <ais523> we used to drive past fields with cows and sheep in on the way to school
02:17:18 <Koen_> well mostly I've got a memory of queueing to visit it
02:17:58 <elliott> how expensive is san francisco (i know literally nothing about the world)
02:18:14 <ais523> elliott: more so than hexham
02:18:19 <Koen_> how expensive is v. expensive?
02:18:24 <kmc> http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/SF-Infographic.png
02:18:43 <ais523> actually I have come to the conclusion that Subway (the sandwich chain) is one of the better ways to compare the relative expense of places
02:18:52 <ais523> because it's really common, and less prone to cultural differences than McDonalds is
02:18:59 <Koen_> these are not US dollars right kmc right
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02:19:04 <kmc> these are US dollars
02:19:08 <ais523> also, Subway prices vary noticeably even within one city in the UK, unlike McDonalds
02:19:30 <pikhq> Yeah, the price of a Subway sandwich is probably a better barometer.
02:19:41 <pikhq> Due to varying rather a bit more based on supply chain.
02:19:47 <kmc> to rent a 1 bedroom apartment, which is the most expensive way for one person to live, compared to sharing a bigger apt
02:19:54 <elliott> also which one of these is silicon valley
02:20:03 <ais523> pikhq: I've seen a difference of £2.30 just within the uK
02:20:07 <kmc> this is SF proper which is only 7 miles on a side
02:20:13 <kmc> Silicon Valley is like 30 miles south of there
02:20:31 <elliott> kmc: you guys have like the biggest fucking country ever and you pack everything into no space whatsoever
02:20:40 <kmc> elliott: yes because it's useful to live near other people
02:20:42 <myndzi> that one makes no sense
02:20:47 <elliott> i think by useful you mean horrible
02:20:48 <kmc> cities are expensive because people want to live there
02:20:50 <myndzi> but i f igured it'd be easy to add ;)
02:20:57 <ais523> elliott: even despite the packing, it's apparently impossible to live without driving in the US, in most cases
02:21:04 <pikhq> Also, we're not as crammed as you think.
02:21:10 <kmc> SF has a serious housing shortage though
02:21:15 <ais523> whereas in the UK, it's possible to get from Birmingham to Hexham entirely along cycle paths
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02:21:16 <kmc> thanks to inept planning, zoning, NIMBYs, etc
02:21:21 <ais523> (not that you'd want to, but the possibility exists)
02:21:26 <kmc> i'm told that in the UK, NIMBYs are known as CAVE people
02:21:32 <kmc> Citizens Against Virtually Everything
02:21:38 <ais523> kmc: NIMBY is pretty common in the UK too
02:21:49 <kmc> I guess it's more specific
02:22:05 <kmc> if you can afford it, yes
02:22:06 <pikhq> That's only, uh, 200 miles.
02:22:18 <shachaf> maybe i'll get a job first
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02:22:25 <kmc> elliott: of course pay scales up to match rents, somewhat
02:22:28 <Koen_> that's almost three days if you're riding a bike
02:22:28 <kmc> at least if you're a software engineer
02:22:30 <ais523> don't move unless you have a reason to move
02:22:50 <ais523> hmm, I think zzo38 would explain it better than me
02:22:59 <kmc> eventually SF will have only software engineers and homeless schizophrenic people who sleep at the BART station
02:23:07 <shachaf> ais523: i live in a small windowless room in a city that used to have the most murders per capita in the country
02:23:11 <kmc> at least this is one of the dystopian scenarios that people are worrying a lot about
02:23:17 <ais523> shachaf: isn't that illegal?
02:23:28 <ais523> one of the UK housing regulations is that all rooms used for sleeping must have a window
02:23:37 <ais523> and it seems like a sensible rule for elsewhere too
02:23:41 <kmc> that's common in the US too
02:23:52 <ais523> this means that large dormitories tend to have shapes designed to maximise surface area
02:23:57 <kmc> my friend lived in a windowless room in NYC and there was a sticker on the door like "DON'T LIST THIS ROOM ON CRAIGSLIST WITHOUT ASKING US FIRST"
02:24:07 <pikhq> Koen_: That's just a bit over the distance from Colorado Springs to the CO-KS boarder.
02:24:18 <Koen_> oh so france isn't the only country that has rules about the size and shape of a bed?
02:24:28 <kmc> ais523: https://www.google.com/search?q=simmons+hall&tbm=isch
02:24:34 <ais523> kmc: hmm, so the rule exists in the US, just people break it and think they'd be unlikely to be caught?
02:24:42 <kmc> some places they do
02:24:42 <Koen_> pikhq: you're not cool now I have to google CO-KS
02:24:49 <pikhq> Koen_: Colorado-Kansas.
02:24:55 <kmc> housing in NYC is insane enough that people will put up with a lot of sketchy
02:25:12 <shachaf> the windowless part is p. bad..............i should move
02:25:17 <ais523> in that case, I guess the difference in the UK is that people think they'd be more likely to be caught
02:25:23 <kmc> maybe they do it in London?
02:25:24 <ais523> actually, they probably would, mostly because of council tax
02:25:35 <ais523> when there's a tax tied to what sort of accommodation you live in
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02:25:49 <ais523> government authorities become better at figuring out whether accommodation is legal
02:26:00 <kmc> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index#Manipulation
02:26:18 <kmc> "Guillermo Moreno, Secretary of Commerce in the Kirchner government, reportedly forced McDonald's to sell the Big Mac at an artificially low price to manipulate the country's performance on the Big Mac index"
02:26:27 <Koen_> yup that looks like 2~3 days
02:26:40 <ais523> kmc: somehow I'm not surprised
02:26:44 <kmc> also I'm not sure I could bike 200 miles in 3 days
02:26:47 <kmc> but i'm kind of a wimp
02:27:01 <elliott> i like how "bike" just looks like a name to me now
02:27:14 <kmc> well I did 200 in 4 days and didn't feel dead, so probably I could
02:27:18 <Koen_> I biked 250 km in two days a couple years ago
02:27:33 <Koen_> if you can convert that to your weird units
02:27:36 <elliott> i can't ride a bicycle "help"
02:27:47 <kmc> `which units
02:28:22 <kmc> `units 250km mi
02:28:24 <HackEgo> Definition: 4.02336e+08 m^2
02:28:27 <Koen_> ohhhhh right for some reason I was assuming miles/km was the same as dollar/euro
02:28:27 <elliott> you should use it instead of units
02:28:29 <kmc> i don't know frink
02:28:37 <kmc> `addquote <Koen_> ohhhhh right for some reason I was assuming miles/km was the same as dollar/euro
02:28:51 <HackEgo> 1953125/12573 (approx. 155.3427980593335)
02:28:53 <HackEgo> 1058) <Koen_> ohhhhh right for some reason I was assuming miles/km was the same as dollar/euro
02:29:17 <Koen_> I like how 250km mi was interpreted as a surface
02:29:30 <ais523> <Koen_> ohhhhh right for some reason I was assuming miles/km was the same as dollar/euro ← it's pretty close to pound/dollar, sometimes
02:30:14 <Bike> `frink 250 km*mi -> square inches
02:30:20 <HackEgo> 79200000000000/127 (approx. 6.236220472440945e11)
02:30:30 <pikhq> Koen_: The mile's not a weird unit! Why, it's quite simply 1760 yards!
02:30:37 <pikhq> A yard of course being 3 feet.
02:30:45 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "kB". \ 100 kB (undefined symbol)
02:30:47 <shachaf> kmc: once upon a time USD/INS was ~ gallon/litre
02:30:52 <Koen_> how long is your feet
02:30:54 <ais523> I wanted it to interpret it as kilobels
02:30:59 <pikhq> And an international yard being 0.9144m.
02:31:07 <Koen_> how loog is your foot* and don't make me ask how long your inch is
02:31:15 <shachaf> kmc: so you could compare some prices pretty directly
02:31:25 <Koen_> is inch a synonym for thumb?
02:31:35 <HackEgo> [moonmass = 7.3483e+22 kg (mass), \ moondist = 3.84400000e+8 m (length), \ moonlum = 2500 m^-2 cd (illuminance), \ moongravity = 1.62 m s^-2 (acceleration), \ moonradius = 1738000 m (length)]
02:31:38 <ais523> Koen_: in the UK, 1 foot = 12 inches = 12 * 2.54 millimetres
02:31:44 <pikhq> And a survey yard being 3937/3600 m.
02:31:55 <ais523> `frink 100*1000*10 decibels
02:31:57 <pikhq> ais523: US and UK "foot" are identical.
02:32:00 <kmc> UK and US have the same inch/foot
02:32:02 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "decibels". \ 1000000 decibels (undefined symbol)
02:32:05 <ais523> `frink 100*1000*10 decibel
02:32:08 <kmc> but not the same fluid ounce :/
02:32:13 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "decibel". \ 1000000 decibel (undefined symbol)
02:32:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MetricImperialUSCustomaryUnits.jpg
02:32:27 <ais523> yeah but bels work on a log scale
02:32:37 <elliott> e.g. http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt
02:32:39 <ais523> which is why the idea of a kilobel or megabel is so earthshattering
02:32:41 <Koen_> ais523: Koen_: in the UK, 1 foot = 12 inches = 12 * 2.54 millimetres
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02:32:45 <pikhq> Though the US also has survey feet.
02:32:52 <kmc> somebody told me that the strength of british beer is scaled to the fact that a UK pint, a US pint, and a continental whatever are different sizes
02:33:17 <Koen_> that's like 3 centimetres ais523
02:33:47 <pikhq> 1 survey foot = 12 survey inches = 12 * 100/3937m.
02:34:23 <ais523> alternatively you could make one of the continuity-piercing wormholes 10 times bigger?
02:34:37 <Koen_> ais523: 30 centimetres? SERIOUSLY
02:34:44 <Koen_> I thought I had big feet
02:34:44 <ais523> Koen_: yeah, about 30 centimetres
02:34:54 <ais523> I'm not sure whose feet they are
02:34:58 <pikhq> Used for surveying purposes because the US length units were defined accordingly before settling on a single length unit set with the UK.
02:35:03 <Koen_> stores here don't even make shoes for 30-centimetres feet
02:35:41 <pikhq> My feet are larger than a foot?
02:35:42 <ais523> pikhq: huh, I assumed the US used the same units as the UK because they were the same pre-independence
02:36:10 <pikhq> ais523: The US established its own definitions of them, which were mostly similar but not identical.
02:36:13 <Koen_> ais523: yeah, france booted you out of america for a reason :-)
02:36:32 <ais523> Koen_: well I wasn't in America at the time
02:36:45 <pikhq> Hence why the pre-international US and UK feet were merely *almost* identical.
02:37:17 <Koen_> you guys have international feet? didn't anyone give you a head's up about the metric system?
02:37:29 <kmc> how much beer do you get when you ask for a pint on the continent
02:37:29 <Bike> koen can you say that with a straight face
02:37:39 <Fiora> I remember reading the history of the foot on wikipedia a bit back
02:37:41 <pikhq> International, international nautical, *and* US survey.
02:37:43 <Fiora> 30cm is huge though
02:37:46 <Fiora> it's like. wow that's a big foot
02:38:22 <ais523> well it's not like the inch is actually the same length as anyone's actual inches
02:38:30 <kmc> my foot is about 28 cm long
02:38:39 <elliott> my foot is about 1 elliott foot long
02:39:01 <shachaf> elliott: are they all the same length
02:39:05 <kmc> i wear men's US size 13 wide
02:39:24 <elliott> actually my feet are slightly different in size
02:39:34 <Fiora> I think mine are about ~22.5cm? I'm not sure they differ in size though
02:39:36 <pikhq> Funny, that's my shoe size as well.
02:39:50 <pikhq> Maybe I'm misremembering and my feet are merely nearly a foot in length.
02:39:54 <Fiora> I wear a size 5.5 or 6 usually since it depends on brand
02:39:59 <Koen_> elliott: yeah I was doing speleology with that guy Mathieu once, and he was measuring every height we had to climb down in "decamathieus"
02:40:03 <Fiora> my right foot is also like at least half a size bigger for some weird reason
02:40:14 <ais523> Fiora: that's quite common
02:40:25 <shachaf> i am perfectly symmetrical
02:40:57 <kmc> shachaf: is that so
02:41:02 <Fiora> it's just like annoying when I am like "okay a 5.5 would fit my left perfectly but now my right foot won't fit and aksdjfls"
02:41:16 <shachaf> kmc: i don't think so anyway
02:41:45 <Fiora> so kmc has like 9 sizes larger than me
02:41:57 <shachaf> Fiora: i hugged kmc when he was visiting in san francisco and it was great
02:42:22 <Koen_> I was with that woman and she saw a butterfly and she said it was wonderful how butterflies were perfectly symmetrical and I told her she was symmetrical too and then she started talking about her breasts
02:42:47 <mnoqy> thats a great pickup line
02:43:39 <shachaf> mnoqy: what, talking about butterflies?
02:44:04 <mnoqy> if that's what you're into
02:45:20 <Koen_> "I like the way you butterfly, girl."
02:45:55 <ais523> hmm, would elliott be horrified to discover that I've actually started conversations with girls?
02:46:02 <ais523> it feels vaguely similar to pickup lines
02:46:13 <ais523> except that you aren't trying to build up to ask them out on a date
02:46:24 -!- elliott has left.
02:46:28 <coppro> I started a conversation with a female of the species once
02:46:33 <coppro> or at least, I think I did
02:46:34 <shachaf> shouldn't it feel similar to actually just talking to people
02:46:37 <coppro> alise is a girl's name right?
02:46:52 <ais523> shachaf: starting a conversation is different from talking to people
02:46:54 * Fiora feels vaguely out of place in this conversation
02:47:11 <ais523> and starting a conversation with someone of the opposite gender has social awkwardness built in
02:47:27 <mnoqy> wow what happened to this channel
02:47:35 <myndzi> Fiora: does this make you awkward? :V
02:47:45 <ais523> well, if you're aware they're of the opposite gender
02:48:09 <ais523> continuing a conversation is pretty easy, though
02:48:14 <mnoqy> coppro: i cried & i think thats close enough
02:48:33 <coppro> mnoqy: are you even old enough to get the reference?
02:48:39 <Koen_> I wouldn't know I usually don't talk to girls I just stalk them at night
02:48:41 <mnoqy> yeah i know who alise is
02:48:42 <Koen_> it's pretty effective
02:48:43 -!- elliott has joined.
02:48:48 <elliott> has everyone stopped being terrible yet
02:48:52 <Fiora> elliott: they really haven't
02:48:53 <mnoqy> theyre all still terrible
02:48:55 <shachaf> elliott: no it's gotten worse
02:48:57 -!- elliott has left.
02:49:05 -!- Fiora has left ("I think I'm going to join elliott in some better place").
02:49:07 <ais523> also I agree with mnoqy and fizzie
02:49:20 <ais523> hey, no fair parting and screwing up my tab complete
02:49:28 <Koen_> I'm gonna go to bed bye
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02:51:19 <coppro> wait, kmc still has voice?
02:51:24 <coppro> I thought that was a one-time joke or something
02:51:24 <kmc> hell yes i do
02:51:31 <kmc> it's a one-time joke and that time is now
02:54:44 <ais523> bleh, I was going to voice Gregor
02:54:46 <ais523> but he's already voiced
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02:57:03 <coppro> kmc: hahahahahahahahahah i get it
02:57:51 <ais523> OK, coppro's reaction is funny
02:59:44 <coppro> http://cdn.meme.li/instances/400x/32780540.jpg
02:59:58 <ais523> wait, people are posting image macros on IRC, now?
03:00:38 <kmc> sad that Fiora left
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03:01:37 <ais523> kmc: I keep forgetting that I can't generally trust even people in #esoteric to behave themselves
03:01:42 <coppro> ais523: I just googled for it
03:01:45 <coppro> I dunno if that counts
03:02:04 <ais523> how does the method via which you found it have any influence on what it is?
03:02:26 <coppro> I don't know the technical definition of image macro
03:02:59 <ais523> it's probably defined on urban dictionary, though
03:03:19 <mnoqy> who needs a defn. it's easy to see it's awful and why would anyone post it jeez
03:03:39 <ais523> mnoqy: this is actually entirely based on the URL
03:03:57 <ais523> URLreading is a skill that can be quite finely developed if you're the sort of person who seldom clicks on links
03:04:09 <kmc> also who's alise
03:04:34 <ais523> which was a worthwhile experiment in Internet attitudes IMO
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03:05:27 <ais523> depends on what you mean by "it"
03:05:32 <ais523> the conversation is still bad, except on a different topic
03:05:40 <ais523> like, it's moronic rather than creepy
03:05:44 <mnoqy> it's about alise now
03:05:57 <ais523> well, not the alise stuff, the image macro stuff
03:06:34 <elliott> this sounds like not "over"
03:07:09 <ais523> hey, who do you think is a better cleanup wall in VGC, Ferrothorn or Reuniclus?
03:09:05 <coppro> which one is VGC again?
03:09:29 <ais523> 4 from 6, level 50, doubles
03:09:38 <coppro> ah. in that case no idea
03:09:45 <coppro> but I'll vote reuniclus because he looks funnier
03:14:32 <kmc> elliott: what did you learn by being alise
03:19:29 <kmc> well anyway
03:20:18 <kmc> referring to a woman as 'a female' is a standard speech pattern among creepers
03:20:25 <kmc> which doesn't mean you're a creeper just for saying that, but it might be best avoided
03:21:43 <kmc> i mean it is very common even among people who are not creepers
03:21:48 <kmc> but it does have that association, at least for me
03:22:03 <kmc> pick up artists &c.
03:22:11 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to SmoothPUA.
03:22:37 -!- SmoothPUA has changed nick to copumpkin.
03:22:39 <kmc> SmoothPUA: i don't want to have sex with you because you failed to subtly insult me
03:22:48 <kmc> rookie mistake
03:22:50 <pikhq> It more has an association of someone without any actual connection with women. Like, view them purely in the abstract.
03:22:59 <pikhq> ... I guess that would be "creeper", yes.
03:23:00 <mnoqy> was there a joke there
03:23:19 <ais523> mnoqy: it was a really bad one that it's not worth trying to understand
03:23:40 <kmc> pretty sure Poe's Law isn't relevant here
03:23:42 <shachaf> kmc: i find "a female" (noun) much worse than "female" (adjective), is it only me?
03:23:51 <ais523> err, probably, I keep getting them mudled up
03:23:52 <kmc> not having too much trouble distinguishing whether copumpkin is being serious
03:23:55 <kmc> shachaf: it's same for me
03:23:56 <copumpkin> shachaf: reminds me of "an illegal"
03:24:21 <shachaf> sometimes i say "female people" when e.g. i want to be age-neutral
03:24:31 <mnoqy> [[why the heck are we even talking about this gone damn]]
03:24:48 <kmc> sheeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
03:24:58 <ais523> when a conversation goes downhill and peters out because of it
03:25:11 <ais523> the correct response is not to notice it in scrollback, then retroactively attempt to add to it
03:25:31 <shachaf> i think some amount of metadiscussion about what's ok and isn't ok is reasonable
03:25:49 <ais523> shachaf: sure, that's fine, but it has to be discussion about what's acceptable in the channel, not in general
03:26:56 <kmc> i saw this as friendly advice on how to avoid being unintentionally creepy
03:27:01 <kmc> we can talk about something else
03:27:20 <kmc> i like hugs
03:27:30 <shachaf> haskell user's golfing system
03:27:54 <copumpkin> let's have ais523 tell us what is bad and unacceptable, because I just tuned in a little while ago and am sorry for doing that, but I'm not entirely sure what was wrong with it so it would help me to understand (I'm not even doing this rhetorically)
03:28:41 <ais523> copumpkin: basically because it's clear that different people have substantially different ideas of where the line is
03:29:04 <copumpkin> the line for creepy PUA-like behavior you mean?
03:29:08 <Gracenotes> <ironic sexism is still sexism. but also so is society in general.>
03:29:15 <ais523> the line for gender/sexism discussion
03:29:54 <ais523> so it's impossible to hold a discussion without either some people thinking it's going round in circles, or other people thinking it's unacceptable
03:30:20 <ais523> as such, the conversation is almost guaranteed to go downhill when spread across the channel as a whole
03:30:24 <ais523> even if I only just realised that in the past hour or so
03:30:38 <ais523> (even though it would probably work between any two individual members)
03:31:14 <copumpkin> I enjoy mocking the PUA mentality in various ways, but I'll refrain from pretending to engage in it henceforth
03:31:18 <kmc> maybe it's relevant that copumpkin and i are both guys and we've met in person
03:31:37 <ais523> kmc: I don't think so, perhaps it is?
03:31:40 <ais523> I can't see why it would be
03:31:47 <kmc> there wasn't much risk of me misinterpreting his joke
03:32:02 <ais523> yeah but it's not in PM
03:32:12 <ais523> so there are 61 other people who might potentially misinterpret it
03:32:41 <kmc> shrug, it's one thing to say people shouldn't make jokes making fun of PUA or whatever, it's another thing to say that all discussion of sexism is banned because it causes the channel to go "downhill"
03:32:52 <kmc> it sounds like you're arguing the latter and i'm not ok with that
03:32:55 <elliott> i think it is pretty weird that ais523 is calling out copumpkin but not whath appened earlier
03:33:29 <copumpkin> hey, getting called out is good, I've been thoroughly indoctrinated by my job
03:33:29 <ais523> elliott: I'm not really trying to pick on people, I'm trying to shut down the subject
03:33:42 <ais523> which involves notifying people that I'm trying to get rid of it
03:33:42 <elliott> well it obviously isn't working
03:33:47 <Gracenotes> copumpkin: dare I ask what your jerb is?
03:33:55 <ais523> this is easier when someone's trying to start/restart a conversation, than when the conversation's in full swing
03:34:00 <copumpkin> Gracenotes: I'm a professional criticizee/criticizer
03:34:09 <nooodl> /msg ChanServ CLEAR #esoteric USERS
03:34:15 <nooodl> "shuts down a subject"
03:34:27 <copumpkin> Gracenotes: something like that :P
03:34:48 <ais523> nooodl: well clearly you can do something really obnoxious so that the conversation switches to what an awful op you are, rather than about what the conversation was about before
03:35:03 <ais523> but that only works limited times, and is sort-of hostile to your continuing presence in the channel
03:35:21 <copumpkin> hey guys I made a kitten cry the other day by stealing its saucer of milk
03:35:32 <shachaf> copumpkin: did you read _The Door into Summer_
03:36:01 <copumpkin> ais523: see, I didn't know that either. Learn new things every day!
03:36:15 <copumpkin> Gracenotes: yeah, really unexpected isn't it!
03:36:27 <ais523> fwiw, though, I wasn't intending to single out copumpkin, rather I was trying to inform em about something e might have missed due to not being in the conversation earlier and/or not being able to read my mind
03:37:08 <Gracenotes> perhaps it's like a Prolog program, where we normally query the software and get copumpkin, but you can also do it the other way around.
03:37:38 <kmc> anyway shutting down discussion of social justice because it's an unpleasant topic for white men is pretty bad. and that may not be what ais523 is advocating, but it's not clear to me yet that he's not advocating that
03:37:38 <copumpkin> no no, I appreciate it, really :) I mostly try to be as non-assholish as possible and it's good to be reminded when I fail
03:37:55 <kmc> it's not something you can sort out in PM
03:37:59 <kmc> because it's about *community* standards
03:38:45 <copumpkin> the whole ironic asshole thing is something I'm trying to improve about. I should read some scrollback and then probably not bring it back up
03:41:39 <kmc> while we're at the bottom of this hill, someone should rename "Stalker mode" on http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
03:42:11 <Gracenotes> social justice is interesting because it requires prior education to talk about constructively; usually this education can't be communicated as part of a single discussion
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03:42:25 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what the phrase means
03:43:32 <Bike> "Social justice is justice exercised within a society, particularly as it is applied to and among the various social classes of a society." cool thanks wikipedia
03:43:54 <ais523> bleh, even with a definition, I'm /still/ not entirely sure what the phrase means
03:44:07 <kmc> i'm no expert but i just meant it as "talking about racism sexism etc. and what to do about them"
03:44:08 <Bike> yes the joke is: that's not a very good definition
03:44:30 <Bike> but basically yeah, not being dumb to marginalized groups, or "minorities" as the jargon goes
03:44:43 <Bike> pretty esoteric stuff!!
03:44:58 <Gracenotes> achieving legal (de jure and de facto), cultural, and socioeconomic equity.
03:45:40 <shachaf> i thought ais523's issue was "objecting to things that are considered harmful by doing them sarcastically", not to talking about them in general
03:46:03 <shachaf> i was thinking of a different part of the conversation
03:46:14 <Gracenotes> being aware of the perpetuation of inequity and disavowing personal benefit from it
03:46:40 <copumpkin> (and not denying that one benefits from it)
03:46:42 <pikhq> kmc: At least some of us are not heterosexual white men?
03:46:45 <ais523> shachaf: my objection's to "continuing a discussion that's already been determined to be unhelpful via making a joke"
03:47:05 <kmc> "determined to be unhelpful"
03:47:08 <mnoqy> pikhq: thanks pikhq ☺
03:47:24 <copumpkin> oh, I took it as pointing out that the ironic thing gets old quickly
03:47:38 <pikhq> And if I could get my girlfriend on here we could diversify shit even more. :P
03:48:01 <copumpkin> hey, if we could get my 401k on here we could di--
03:48:15 <Gracenotes> hm yeah 'disavow' might not have been the right word
03:48:50 <Bike> well, you can't, of course
03:49:24 <Gracenotes> yeah, some such things are active, others passive...
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04:06:57 <kmc> so anyone have ideas on doing arbitrary computation with iconv?
04:08:03 <ais523> I guess for a conditional, you can convert back from UTF-8
04:08:09 <ais523> or similar multibyte encodings
04:11:12 <ais523> ideally you'd want some sort of encoding with frame ambiguity, though
04:11:17 <ais523> UTF-8 is, sadly, designed to avoid that
04:12:39 <kmc> but there are others :)
04:13:07 <kmc> shift-jis I think
04:13:29 <ais523> yeah, me not knowing how they work is a problem for working out ways to program with them, though
04:14:34 <kmc> iconv also supports ISO-2022 which has state that persists across an arbitrary number of bytes
04:25:11 <copumpkin> “You can’t hold the World Cup with hospitals”
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04:29:18 <lifthrasiir> kmc: iconv state is finite (at best, ~16 words), isn't it?
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04:52:45 <kmc> for each pass yeah
04:52:57 <kmc> but each pass can transform an arbitrary length byte sequence
04:53:10 <kmc> you would need to apply iconv many times and you would need some external mechanism for looping
04:53:23 <kmc> or the goal is not "arbitrary computation" but something less ambitious
04:54:16 <lifthrasiir> kmc: you may utilize a legacy encoding with no proper round trip
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08:44:29 <elliott> oklopol: shows the log in real time
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09:18:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> Work done is difference in kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is mass times velocity is force times distance. These are both measured in Joules
09:18:53 <oerjan> i have some quibbles with the mass times velocity part, as i distinctly recall 1/2 m v^2.
09:19:22 <oerjan> mass times velocity is momentum hth
09:19:43 <shachaf> when will you stop saying hth
09:20:04 <oerjan> when i find another overused meme to borrow
09:21:00 <oerjan> i recall reddit tried that once
09:21:33 <oerjan> iirc it was quite awful
09:21:51 <shachaf> are you talking about the carrot thing
09:21:57 <oerjan> and didn't precisely spread... yeah
09:22:10 <shachaf> what about the monoid thing
09:22:21 <shachaf> i heard that was on ircnet
09:25:36 <oerjan> of course there's a writeup at http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/waffles-dont-you-mean-carrots
09:27:22 <shachaf> can http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949537745/armikrog get $300,000 in 6 days y/n
09:35:05 <oerjan> incidentally armkrog means "bent arm" in danish hth
09:35:33 <oerjan> (s/g/k/ for norwegian)
09:44:05 <oerjan> <Taneb> Bike, hopefully past tense. The exam is in less than 11 hours <-- HE'S DOOMED
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11:01:06 <oerjan> 21:39:48: <elliott> im googling "huge bed" now #drugz
11:01:13 <oerjan> 21:41:23: <elliott> why is there furry porn and a picture of some socks. this is the worst image search ever
11:05:45 * oerjan realizes turning off safe search for this was a mistake
11:07:01 <elliott> this upgraded OS behaves just weirdly and unfamiliarly enough for me to maintain my healthy sense of constant unease
11:07:48 <oerjan> still cannot reproduce, though.
11:07:57 <oerjan> i see a lot of huge beds, curiously.
11:08:12 <elliott> do you want me to go and find it again. are you that desperate to find the furry porn
11:08:23 <oerjan> come to think of it, maybe not.
11:08:54 <elliott> also, those beds are _not_ huge.
11:09:16 <oerjan> i was assuming there was some obvious absurdity to be found
11:11:24 <elliott> step 2 in carefully regulating my amount of annoyance and confusion is compiling ghc from source just to get the documentation to build better
11:13:25 <oerjan> sounds familiar, in general
11:15:54 <oerjan> turns out asus's touchpads don't have very good drivers. and that playing tatham's puzzles with them therefore sucks.
11:17:03 <elliott> do you want me to buy you a mouse
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11:18:03 <oerjan> i have a mouse. it's hard to use it when having the notebook on my lap, which i must since i don't have a proper computer table
11:18:23 <elliott> do you want me to buy you a computer table
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11:18:37 <oerjan> all i'm saying is i never had trouble with playing them on my old laptop ;_;
11:19:00 <oerjan> (my memory is probably just defective.)
11:19:28 <elliott> mnoqy: how funny would it be on a scale of 0 to 10 if i actually bought oerjan a computer table
11:20:14 <oerjan> the thing is i don't _really_ want a computer table.
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11:20:37 <elliott> it's ok i have another idea
11:20:41 <mnoqy> is that like a table you put your computer on or a table that is a computer
11:21:04 <elliott> what if i buy you a little mousing area that plugs in via usb and gets heated up
11:21:15 <elliott> if this is not invented then i'm not sure i want to live in the world
11:21:24 <oerjan> i want to live in a small wooden hut with earthen floor and fast broadband, or something.
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11:28:55 <oerjan> it's a very nice rational hth
11:32:10 <oerjan> also turns out asus's touchpad driver sometimes crashes. oh it worked again.
11:32:48 <oerjan> (false alarm. what it actually sometimes does is fail to load at reboot.)
11:35:01 <elliott> oerjan: i bet it would work perfectly on.... linux
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11:54:16 <oerjan> <elliott> is mosh failing me <-- i'd say so
12:03:56 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
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12:35:33 <oerjan> <myndzi> \o/ \o/ \m/ \m/ _o/\o_ ಠ_ಠ <o> ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:35:33 <myndzi> | | `\o/´ | | ¯|¯⌠ | |
12:35:33 <myndzi> >\ /< | /'\ >\ >\|/| o/`¯º
12:37:27 <oerjan> @tell myndzi your \m/ \m/ figure is misaligned hth
12:38:06 <oerjan> myndzi is a regular with a script
12:44:04 <oerjan> @ask <Koen_> reader's digets used to call that city Frisco
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12:44:42 <oerjan> the _first_ time i decided to rely on IE 10's cut an paste no longer including end-of-line :(
12:45:16 <oerjan> @ask <oerjan> Does this work?
12:46:28 <oerjan> @ask Koen_ <Koen_> reader's digets used to call that city Frisco <-- are you sure they didn't mean the _actual_ city named Frisco hth
12:49:14 <oerjan> @tell Koen_ " In 1904, the residents chose Frisco City in honor of the St. Louis-San Francisco Railway on which the town was founded, later shortened to its present name."
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13:00:20 <elliott> c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c
13:00:21 <myndzi> c.c.cc.c.cc.c.cc.c.cc.c.cc.c.cc.c.c
13:00:21 <myndzi> c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c
13:08:29 <Koen_> @tell oerjan I'll check some day thanks for blowing my mind
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13:18:25 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages
13:18:34 <lambdabot> Koen_ said 10m 2s ago: I'll check some day thanks for blowing my mind
13:19:36 <oerjan> Koen_: naming your city after something named after another city is rather mind-blowing yeah
13:21:35 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
13:23:00 <oerjan> btw does anyone know whether setting the putty keepalive option will help, hurt, or do nothing about short-time-but-not-short-enough network disconnections?
13:23:56 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot failuer
13:23:58 <Deewiant> That's a good pair of letters to put in the wrong window
13:23:58 <fizzie> That was supposed to be AAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
13:24:18 <fizzie> These touchscreen keyboards.
13:24:49 <ion> buttbuttin
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13:26:58 <oerjan> hi FireFly you are being swatted for complicating my tab completion of fizzie hth
13:27:55 <FireFly> You could always configure your client to complete nicks in descending alphabetic order
13:29:09 <oerjan> i don't see that option in /set hth
13:30:02 <FireFly> Has the average 'hth' count in your lines exceeded 100% yet?
13:30:31 <oerjan> i wonder what completion_auto does
13:30:38 <ion> We could encode our messages in permutations of sequences of hth. hth
13:31:30 <oerjan> ion: sounds like a dangerous policy that might lead to brainfuck derivatives hth
13:32:58 <oerjan> fizzie: wait do you mean hth/line fraction if so maybe hth i thought you meant hth/word hth
13:34:28 <oerjan> apparently irssi suddenly decided to put fizzie first, despite FireFly speaking last
13:34:58 <FireFly> Maybe it orders nicks in opposite priority of which you'd want to mention them
13:35:02 <FireFly> you know.. for your discomfort
13:35:42 <oerjan> i think it rather has the strange idea of prioritizing actual completions used over people speaking
13:36:25 <elliott> oerjan: just talk to me. i have an unambiguous two-letter prefix.
13:37:16 <oerjan> that has not always been the case
13:38:02 <oerjan> `pastelogs <ell([^i]|i[^o])
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13:38:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4295
13:39:17 <oerjan> `pastelogs <ell([^i]|i[^op])
13:39:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15125
13:40:11 <oerjan> i suppose elly is who i was thinking of
13:41:32 <elliott> we refer to those as the dark times.
13:44:28 <elliott> now the golden times, those come in the future, when you op me.
13:44:38 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
13:44:39 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
13:44:39 <myndzi> /< >\ /| | /^\ /| /| | /| /< /'\
13:45:04 <mnoqy> hm those \m/ \m/s look a bit weird
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13:45:12 <elliott> specifically, i have calculated it to be three minutes in the future
13:45:13 <oerjan> mnoqy: i already told him
13:45:33 <oerjan> elliott: a bit off, i think
13:46:44 <elliott> oerjan: it could also be fizzie that ops me.
13:46:47 <elliott> my predictions are unclear.
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13:49:36 <oerjan> <elliott> i think by useful you mean horrible <-- there is actually no contradiction between those hth
13:51:21 <oerjan> @tell myndzi " o.o " (only one space in front) looks weird hth
13:52:03 <fizzie> oerjan: You are so demanding.
13:53:00 <fizzie> c.c how abut two spac?
13:55:34 <oerjan> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ c.c \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
13:55:35 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠`\o/´ `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
13:55:35 <myndzi> >\ c.c |\ /< | | | /| |/| c.c /<
13:56:13 <oerjan> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ _o_ _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
13:56:13 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠`\o/´ | | | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
13:56:14 <myndzi> >\ c.c >\ |\| | >\ /< /| | |\|/< c.c /^\
13:56:33 <elliott> ok it makes more sense now
13:56:43 <oerjan> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
13:56:44 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠`\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
13:56:44 <myndzi> |\ c.c /´\ |\| | |\ c.c |\ | /< | |\ c.c /|
13:57:19 <oerjan> ^def celebrate ul (\o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/)S
13:57:27 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
13:57:28 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠`\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
13:57:28 <myndzi> /| c.c |\ /< | | /| c.c >\ | /´\| >\ c.c /|
13:59:10 <oerjan> a new and modern festival
14:00:24 <elliott> how is ghc STILL fuckin compiling
14:01:00 <oerjan> elliott: quite well, i assume
14:01:27 <oerjan> also it's because you don't have an actual supercomputer hth
14:02:24 <oerjan> (iirc there was some bug report that required one of the simons to buy an EC2 instance to fix it)
14:02:48 <lambdabot> bos says: other companies use expensive firewalls and crypto hardware to protect their intellectual secrets. edwardk uses category theory!
14:02:50 <lambdabot> bos says: other companies use expensive firewalls and crypto hardware to protect their intellectual secrets. edwardk uses category theory!
14:02:54 <lambdabot> SimonMarlow says: This is the largest program (in terms of memory requirements) I've ever seen anyone run using GHC. In fact there was no machine in our building capable of running it, I had to
14:02:54 <lambdabot> fire up the largest Amazon EC2 instance available (68GB) to debug it - this bug cost me $26.
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14:10:30 <fizzie> 68 is an odd even number.
14:12:10 <elliott> oerjan: have I mentioned that I'm ordering people to figure out EC2 pricing on my behalf. you're the next candidate
14:12:59 <fizzie> There's (still) a terabyte of RAM at CSC's http://csc.fi/ shell/serial-job/misc servers.
14:13:03 <oerjan> i'll get back to you as soon as i start buying EC2 instances hth
14:13:24 <elliott> oerjan: no, it's for _me_, you see.
14:13:36 <elliott> fizzie: csc.fi are so good they don't even have a web page, apparently
14:13:43 <oerjan> are you going to put lambdabot on EC2
14:13:59 <elliott> oerjan: well linode have had a rather awful security track record recently...
14:14:15 <elliott> so it would be kind of nice to move esolangs.org/lambdabot/my IRC client to somewhere I vaguely trust
14:14:44 <elliott> but EC2's pricing scheme is so ridiculously byzantine that I have absolutely no idea if I can make it affordable or not
14:15:20 <fizzie> elliott: Aw, they're not no-www compatible or something.
14:15:57 <fizzie> (Android's browser lied to me and added www. itself.)
14:16:45 <oerjan> elliott: last thing i recall is someone claiming it's only cost effective for extra capacity at times of high load?
14:16:47 <elliott> fizzie: you are welcome to supply me with an ssh account
14:17:17 <fizzie> Also, Infiniband. Best name for a technology.
14:17:34 <elliott> oerjan: that's the general kind of thing I've heard too but I've also heard it could be about equally-priced for vaguely comparable specs to what I have for my Linode more recently if I get a reserved instance
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14:22:45 <oerjan> who is that guestbot guy i saw it talk yesterday i think
14:22:58 -!- guestbot has joined.
14:23:51 <elliott> it queried hackego once i think
14:24:01 <HackEgo> guestbot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:24:03 <HackEgo> GUESTBOT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
14:24:13 <HackEgo> guehstboht: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
14:24:20 <elliott> `run relcome guestbot | hyphenate.fi
14:24:24 <HackEgo> gu-estbot: Welco-me to the in-terna-tio-nal hub for e-so-teric prog-ram-ming lan-gu-a-ge de-sign and dep-lo-y-ment! For more in-for-ma-ti-on, check out our wiki: http://e-so-langs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the ot-her kind of e-sote-ri-ca, try #e-so-te-ric on
14:24:32 <elliott> oerjan: i feel all necessary precautions have now been taken.
14:25:10 <guestbot> Currently, guestbot is a test for a browser scripted automated irc client
14:25:48 <ion> elliott: are you for real?
14:26:30 <oerjan> <Koen_> is inch a synonym for thumb? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch#Etymology
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14:27:44 <Taneb> oerjan, I was indeed doomed
14:32:38 <oerjan> <ais523> which is why the idea of a kilobel or megabel is so earthshattering <-- that's _literally_ earthshattering, of course.
14:32:51 <oerjan> (and no, i'm not misusing literal)
14:33:05 <ion> I literally never misuse “literally”.
14:33:26 <oerjan> ok maybe slightly, it's not the _idea_ that is earthshattering.
14:50:01 <elliott> OH MY GOD IT'S STILL COMPILING
14:50:11 <elliott> it's been like four hours.
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14:54:03 <Taneb> wehat are you compiling
14:54:16 <oerjan> isn't that like normal for ghc
14:55:16 <elliott> i'm pretty sure it was quicker last time i did this at least
14:55:38 <fizzie> I think I remember someone complaining about how habitually compiling GHC and Android takes a long time.
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19:03:02 <zzo38> Different point of reference, different wavefunction, and all that stuff, is part of what my point is when I was saying those things.
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19:19:43 <Sgeo> I think this may be the dumbest thing I have ever seen http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/introducing-the-nsa-proof-font
19:19:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
19:20:03 <Sgeo> They think it's impossible to have OCR software trained to recognize a new font?
19:20:25 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:20:33 <Sgeo> Also: Their "false" font, which has a large letter and a small letter where the small letter is the real letter, guess what? real a maps to fake z
19:21:50 <Sgeo> Captchas don't use one specific font though. I think if there was a captcha that always turned a into one of 6 shapes, it would be defeated easily
19:21:58 <Sgeo> (There are six 'fonts' in this package)
19:23:00 <Sgeo> If it were software that created a new font for each document based on this concept, that might be useful, but as-is?
19:23:00 <FreeFull> Where would I be able to find a 100x100 nonogram?
19:24:02 <elliott> [[Sang has no illusions that even a clever cryptographic font—which you can use in email messages to shield them from snoops and font-recognition bots—will remain encoded for long. They're not meant to be long-term tools with which to combat the NSA. Rather, he views them as an awareness-raising measure.
19:24:07 <elliott> Read more: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/introducing-the-nsa-proof-font#ixzz2WyW8HBod
19:24:14 <elliott> stupid copy-paste hijacker
19:25:18 <Sgeo> The video doesn't exactly make it clear
19:25:45 <Bike> encoding as images seems kind of inefficient if you're just using it for email
19:26:11 <Sgeo> I have no idea where I got that link from
19:29:46 <zzo38> Why does Verilog use a list of I/O ports rather than a single bit vector as the I/O port of a module?
19:30:48 <zzo38> I want to make up "HWPL" which does not have these and the other problem of Verilog and other hardware programming languages.
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19:47:54 <shachaf> Bike: why are you in that channel help
19:48:41 <Bike> elliott's scheming.
19:48:56 <elliott> Bike has been in #haskell before! I'm innocent!
19:49:06 <elliott> although I am scheming. constantly
19:53:22 <Sgeo> (Is where I got that link from)
19:54:48 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/7809821/Introducing-NSA-Proof-Font-a-typeface-that-would-be-unreadable-by-text-scanning-software-whether-used-by-a-government-agency-a-lone-hacker-misdirecting-information-sometimes-not-giving-any-at-all
19:54:55 <Sgeo> I think most Farkers understand this
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20:05:51 <oerjan> <-- is it just me or does that subreddit have css that places a red dot in a fixed position on the screen, so it looks like something's wrong with it...
20:06:02 <oerjan> *<Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/1gu52n/back_in_my_day/ <--
20:07:40 <FreeFull> oerjan: I don't see the red dot
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20:09:36 -!- Bike has joined.
20:10:46 <kmc> helloerjan
20:10:59 <kmc> but no he's right there
20:11:21 <kmc> what a terrible person (the jokes is that i also left #haskell)
20:11:31 <kmc> lambdabot: indeed
20:17:13 <lambdabot> America!! I saw it all!! Vomiting! Waving! JERRY FALWELLING into
20:17:13 <lambdabot> your void tube of UHF oblivion!! SAFEWAY of the mind ...
20:17:20 <lambdabot> Succumb to natural tendencies. Be hateful and boring.
20:26:52 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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20:27:37 <ion> *!*@* would be better.
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20:28:00 <elliott> you could remove the 77. on the grounds that nobody should use a client that advertises itself as "hand-crafted" :P
20:28:17 <elliott> probably 77.* includes, like, a ton of stuff, but I doubt it'll come up
20:28:25 <oerjan> elliott: it's all mediaways
20:28:51 <elliott> huh. (how do you look that up? I don't really know where to get this information except the ARIN whois stuff)
20:29:10 <oerjan> host 77.0.0.0 on the command line...
20:29:41 <elliott> 255.255.255.77.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer 77-255-255-255.adsl.inetia.pl.
20:29:49 <elliott> you don't really want .0.0.0 there do you?
20:29:53 <elliott> if you want information for the whole of the range
20:30:13 <oerjan> ...i always thought 0 was the wildcard there
20:30:35 <ion> Err, what’s wrong with whois?
20:31:37 <Taneb> I would like a hug
20:31:50 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
20:32:03 <zzo38> Some things I decided can be: Numbers are binary by default (and can have X and Z in them too), unless you put # or $ to indicate decimal or hexadecimal numbers. All user-defined words must have prefix, so it won't conflict built-ins and binary numbers. The operators + - * / = < > are static operators so it is only used at compile-time; you could check equal at runtime by &(.X~^.Y) instead though.
20:33:58 <oerjan> elliott: hm maybe there isn't actually a wildcard system as i've always thought
20:34:11 <elliott> ion: how can you use whois to get information like "$ISP owns this range in 77.*"?
20:34:57 <ion> whois 77.0.0.0, see where the range ends, add one, whois that, rinse, repeat.
20:35:14 <ion> Someone might have made a tool to automate that.
20:35:37 <oerjan> elliott: ok i just tried whois with the exact ip
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20:36:43 <kmc> zzo38: what are X and Z for
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20:36:59 <zzo38> kmc: X is for an unknown or don't care value, and Z is for high impedance.
20:37:06 <kmc> did hagb4rd try to evade a ban or osmething?
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20:37:10 <kmc> zzo38: ah, for a HDL, I see
20:37:13 <Bike> wow i thought GmbH was a company
20:37:13 <kmc> makes sense
20:37:14 <Bike> i am the worst
20:37:17 <oerjan> that's what whois said the range was, so.
20:37:21 <kmc> it's a type of company
20:37:35 <oerjan> the famous Inc company
20:37:36 <kmc> but yeah I thought that too at one point
20:38:08 <kmc> there's a magazine named Inc but the company is Mansueto Ventures
20:38:17 <Bike> that's terrible
20:38:21 <elliott> kmc: utoneq/untoneq was hagb4rd
20:38:25 <oerjan> mind you 77.181 is owned by the same company. oh well.
20:38:39 <zzo38> The things I have written about above aren't sensible unless it is a hardware programming language anyways.
20:39:00 <kmc> I should have guessed
20:39:07 <kmc> from patterns of talking
20:39:21 <elliott> yeah I realised it was a regular but I had to look up the IP to realise it was hagb4rd
20:39:25 <kmc> 05:09 < utoneq> what exactly is a monad.. and where is the difference to a set or a tuple?
20:39:40 <Taneb> who even is hagb4rd
20:39:48 <zzo38> Why else would arithmetic operators only at compile-time and numbers being in binary notation by default?
20:39:49 <ion> kmc: I’m looking forward to the monad tutorial he will inevitably write.
20:39:50 <elliott> oerjan: imo op kmc so I can bother him instead. this is a serious proposal.
20:40:12 <kmc> i love it when people demand an explanation for X by comparison to some Y or Z they erroneously think is related
20:40:31 <elliott> kmc: the difference is that a monad is a triple
20:41:00 <Taneb> I thought a monad had but one element!
20:41:01 <kmc> i am willing to serve as an #esoteric op if my service in such capacity is desired
20:41:11 <elliott> damn that's some campaign speech
20:41:42 <Taneb> zzo38, I wasn't being serious :P
20:41:51 <Taneb> But, perhaps, the identity element
20:42:35 <Taneb> And now I am sleepy
20:42:42 <Taneb> But it is not even 10 o'clock
20:43:06 <Bike> "really, a monad is just a category with seven elements where each morphism has two inverses"
20:44:54 <kmc> each inverser than the other
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20:48:48 <FreeFull> Bike: Is that unique to monads though?
20:48:55 <nooodl> `addquote <kmc> 05:09 < utoneq> what exactly is a monad.. and where is the difference to a set or a tuple? <elliott> kmc: the difference is that a monad is a triple <elliott> one more element
20:49:05 <HackEgo> 1059) <kmc> 05:09 < utoneq> what exactly is a monad.. and where is the difference to a set or a tuple? <elliott> kmc: the difference is that a monad is a triple <elliott> one more element
20:49:28 <FreeFull> Well, a set is nothing like a tuple
20:49:45 <nooodl> they're just in a file right i could sed it
20:49:59 <kmc> a tuple is a set, if that's how you define tuples
20:50:22 <Bike> a set is a tuple if that's how you define sets! check and mate
20:50:23 <FreeFull> (3,3) is a perfectly valid tuple though
20:50:36 <kmc> check before you mate
20:50:41 <nooodl> {3, {3, 3}} is a valid set
20:50:41 <Bike> it's pretty easy to define ordered pairs with sets, dude
20:50:58 <FreeFull> nooodl: Isn't that {3, {3}} though
20:51:02 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1059s/ <[^ ]/ \&/' quotes
20:51:14 <HackEgo> 1059) <kmc> 05:09 < utoneq> what exactly is a monad.. and where is the difference to a set or a tuple? &lliott> kmc: the difference is that a monad is a triple <elliott> one more element
20:51:14 <nooodl> nah you can't define tuples like that, because
20:51:23 <elliott> btw defining types like tuples in terms of sets is terrible for mathematics. :(
20:51:36 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1059s/ <[^ ]/ &/g' quotes
20:51:37 <nooodl> if you define (a, b) = {a, {b}}
20:51:40 <nooodl> ({0}, 0) would be {{0}, {0}}
20:51:45 <Bike> elliott: here, let me define types as products of prime powers
20:51:46 <HackEgo> 1059) <kmc> 05:09 < utoneq> what exactly is a monad.. and where is the difference to a set or a tuple? <elliott> kmc: the difference is that a monad is a triple <elliott> one more element
20:51:56 <FreeFull> A tuple is some elements, where they have an inherent order and can repeat
20:52:22 <Bike> defined in terms of primes.
20:52:57 <Bike> i've rewritten the HoTT source as a diophantine. no need to thank me.
20:53:40 <katla> "no need to thank me" that's for sure
20:53:50 <nooodl> my dream: asking a SO question that becomes a #1 google search result, gaining fifty thousand rep for nothing
20:54:14 <elliott> it's ok, I make a point to thank Bike as little as possible
20:54:48 <elliott> nooodl: https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=call/cc+implementation&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=EQ_GUbmTIZDwhQetsYCoDg bam
20:54:52 <elliott> maybe it's not #1 for everyone
20:55:41 <elliott> my voting rings expands further
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20:58:56 <kmc> `run sed -i '1059s/ utoneq/utoneq/' quotes
20:59:01 <kmc> `quote 1059
20:59:03 <HackEgo> 1059) <kmc> 05:09 <utoneq> what exactly is a monad.. and where is the difference to a set or a tuple? <elliott> kmc: the difference is that a monad is a triple <elliott> one more element
20:59:05 <elliott> that's falsifying the quote
20:59:07 <kmc> elliott.....
20:59:12 <elliott> what you should do is fix your client to not include that awful space
20:59:14 <elliott> and then we can repeat the exchange
20:59:21 <kmc> `run sed -i '1059s/utoneq/ utoneq/' quotes
20:59:25 <Bike> "Well, okay, it's enlightening if you already know what it means. " good writing here
20:59:26 <kmc> `quote 1059
20:59:27 <HackEgo> 1059) <kmc> 05:09 < utoneq> what exactly is a monad.. and where is the difference to a set or a tuple? <elliott> kmc: the difference is that a monad is a triple <elliott> one more element
20:59:32 <kmc> Bike: monad tutorial?
21:00:11 <Bike> call/cc tutorial
21:00:29 <elliott> kmc: my rambling SO answer
21:00:55 <ion> bike: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont-monad.xhtml
21:01:34 <ion> elliott: URL?
21:01:48 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9050725/call-cc-implementation
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21:13:21 <nooodl^> what's kiwiirc and why's it banned
21:13:42 <Bike> it's hand-crafted
21:16:00 <fizzie> It's also "trusted" by freenode, whatever that means.
21:22:02 <fizzie> Re the earlier discussion on networks, you can ask RIPE whois queries like "77/8 except not the exact match but all first-level more specific inetnum/route objects" to see what all is in a thing. (Though it's a long list for that particular query.)
21:22:59 <fizzie> (Including, among others, some Norwegians, which would be a tragic loss indeed.)
21:23:29 <oerjan> anyway i just extended it to all ips since i found a completely different range in the logs
21:23:48 <oerjan> and afaiu no one else in the channel has ever used that client.
21:24:38 <oerjan> (approximately, anyway)
21:24:40 <nooodl^> who's ban evading on kiwiirc, spammers?
21:24:42 <fizzie> "Thor-Henrik Kvandahl" (the admin contact for Telenor Norge's 77.16.0.0/14 block) sounds incredibly stereotypically Norwegian.
21:24:57 <fizzie> At least the Thor-Henrik part.
21:26:18 <oerjan> fizzie: the kvandahl is a stereotypically norwegian toponym.
21:26:40 <nooodl^> now there's an objective reason to ban him
21:28:37 <elliott> that's what's great about ban evasion
21:28:45 <elliott> like, if I ban someone in #haskell, I hope they evade the ban
21:28:57 <elliott> because it means I can ban them forever and not have to worry about them appealing
21:29:25 <fizzie> Philosophy question: why are Thunderbird's once-a-day builds codenamed "Daily", while Firefox's are called "Nigthly"?
21:29:46 <myname> http://adit.io/posts/2013-04-17-functors,_applicatives,_and_monads_in_pictures.html this is probably the best explanation i've read so far
21:29:48 <fizzie> It would be even more puzzling if they were called Nigthly.
21:33:48 <nooodl^> I should write a monad tutorial!!
21:34:17 <nooodl^> I know exactly what analogy ill use too!!
21:34:56 <kmc> nooodl^ analogy
21:35:25 <elliott> actually it would work better for comonads
21:35:31 <elliott> duplicate goes from noodle to nooodle to noooodle
21:35:33 <nooodl^> its gonna compare IO to sheet music
21:35:48 <shachaf> myname: That explanation looks like it's full of misleading things. :-(
21:36:07 <myname> shachaf: at what point?
21:36:45 <shachaf> For example all 24 points that it talks about "wrapped values".
21:36:58 <kmc> what's my clever quote about IO String?
21:37:07 <kmc> @quote IO.String
21:37:07 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
21:37:13 <kmc> oh that's your clever quote
21:37:20 <kmc> I think I had one too, equally clever though
21:37:23 <lambdabot> kmc says: it is not hard to troll #haskell for real; you just have to get confused and confrontational about how to convert IO String to String
21:37:33 <myname> shachaf: what's wrong with it?
21:37:47 <kmc> an IO String is not a String that's been wrapped or "tainted" somehow
21:38:03 <kmc> it's a recipe for how to produce a String by doing some IO
21:38:16 <kmc> the String doesn't exist yet; you might never execute the recipe, or you might execute it more than once and get different Strings
21:38:24 <kmc> none of which contradicts the idea that the recipe itself is an inert, pure value
21:38:27 <elliott> imo shachaf's quote is cleverer than kmc
21:38:34 <shachaf> @quote monochrom IO.String
21:38:34 <lambdabot> monochrom says: How do I extract the IO out of IO String?
21:38:39 <elliott> not even cleverer than kmc's quote
21:38:51 <kmc> myname: but for example a Maybe String *is* a wrapped String (or Nothing)
21:39:05 <kmc> from which we conclude that this idea of "wrapping" is not fundamental to monads, but a property of the implementation of *some* particular monads
21:39:38 <kmc> there's very little you can say about all monads in general, because it's such a general interface
21:39:50 <kmc> people have trouble "understanding monads" partly because they expect there to be more to it than there is
21:40:08 <kmc> because of all the stupid bullshit hype by detractors and overexcited beginners alike
21:40:16 <katla> is there actually anyone who doens't understand this stuff
21:40:37 <kmc> nah i just go off on autopilot
21:40:42 <Bike> how is a monad like a writing desk
21:40:43 <nooodl^> isn't there like a table of common monad instances and their implementation of return, bind, join
21:40:51 <kmc> but maybe I've at least convinced myname why "wrapping" is not a good analogy
21:41:11 <kmc> a monad is like a butt
21:41:32 <myname> kmc: i agree in the part that "wrapping" as in "putting something around something other" is not a good analogy
21:42:33 <shachaf> So which part is good about that explanation you liked?
21:42:39 <katla> do you know about data IO a = Return a | Bind b (b -> IO a)
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21:42:57 <myname> the visualisation of the types is well made imo
21:43:03 <kmc> | PutChar Char (IO ()) | GetChar (Char -> IO ()) | ...
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21:43:33 <kmc> (but I think that Bind isn't quite right, also it's existentially quantified or something?)
21:43:49 <katla> you would write it as a GADT in a real .hs
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21:44:46 <elliott> it would be | forall b. Bind (IO b) (b -> IO a)
21:44:56 <katla> given that IO String is a string wrapped up in the sense that you need to perform an interactive computation to get it out
21:45:56 <shachaf> "wrapped" meaning "monad"??
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21:56:45 <kmc> katla: no, there is no String in there
21:56:56 <kmc> it's a description of some IO which you could perform in the future to get a String
21:57:06 <elliott> well, katla has a point; there often is.
21:57:31 <elliott> if there exists a sequence of responses to its requests such that it terminates in a Return then there is a String "inside" the IO String in the same way that Bool -> String is a container of two Strings
21:57:39 <kmc> sometimes, yeah, but that doesn't mean that "wrapping" is a useful way to think about IO String
21:57:48 <elliott> but I think it mostly shows that "inside" is too vague to really be useful...
21:57:51 <elliott> but I hate talking about monad tutorials
21:58:01 <kmc> we can make this analogy work only if we torture the definition of "wrap" to mean something completely alien to its English meaning
21:58:07 <kmc> which is how a lot of monad tutorials work out
21:58:23 <kmc> monads are just containers! as long as you forget everything you know about what the word "container" means
21:58:40 <elliott> @quote kmc just.containers
21:58:40 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
21:58:42 <lambdabot> kmc says: [After discussing monads, containers, and tortillas] therefore the key difference between a container and a monad is delicious carne asada
21:58:44 <lambdabot> kmc says: monads are like containers, as long as you forget everything you know about the meaning of the word "container" and take it to be a totally abstract word synonymous with "monad"
21:58:47 <shachaf> monads are like slip covers
21:58:51 <elliott> kmc: i accuse you of plagiarising yourself
21:59:20 <kmc> the "analogy" just exists to trick people into learning a new abstract concept without being scared off by omg math words
22:01:36 <kmc> "A monad has two functions, return and (>>=) --" "OMG math!" "Fine, a monad is like a burrito. A burrito has two functions, return and (>>=) ..."
22:02:51 <shachaf> what does kmc say to vegetarian burritos
22:03:17 <kmc> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50029
22:03:48 <zzo38> You can use Free (CoYoneda f) instead of putting all of the PutChar GetChar in that IO data, which has some problem anyways it isn't a monad (unless it is a private data type), but Free (a functor) is monad, always.
22:04:19 <shachaf> hey kmc do you like CoYoneda
22:05:06 <FreeFull> I am listening to something arond 357 kHz and I have no idea what it is
22:05:52 <kmc> frames of hitler interleaved with plans to build a wormhole endpoint
22:06:33 <zzo38> Something I thought of is "oracle sequent calculus", add a "oracle operator", for example if it is called # then you add an axiom schema |- #x if and only if |- x is not provable.
22:07:24 <Bike> so the lesson i'm getting here is: why the hell are CS people scared of math
22:07:57 <Bike> "wrapping" as in "putting something around something other" <-- also, lol
22:08:00 <myname> math is great, but i like my math with less than 3 abstraction layers
22:08:19 <FreeFull> Oh, seems to be aeroport related?
22:08:44 <zzo38> myname: Why do you think 3 abstraction layers is too much?
22:08:44 <kmc> FreeFull: what kind of radio do you have
22:08:53 <kmc> FreeFull: I got one of the cheap DVB dongle software-defined radios
22:08:53 <Bike> monads as in haskell seem like a pretty straightforward abstraction
22:09:01 <FreeFull> Monads are like monoids in endofunctors
22:09:08 <kmc> it's pretty neat. doesn't go down to 357 kHz though
22:09:22 <myname> zzo38: not "too much", but way to abstract if not told carefully
22:09:31 <FreeFull> http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/
22:11:49 <kmc> oh it samples the /whole/ spectrum?? wow
22:12:36 <kmc> whole shortwave or something
22:12:56 <elliott> I was hoping you meant, like, the /whole/ spectrum.
22:13:14 <FreeFull> It'd be cool to listen to gamma rays
22:13:53 <Bike> wouldn't they be pretty repetitive
22:13:55 <Bike> alt. white noise
22:16:11 <kmc> wonder if any neutrino detectors are online in this manner
22:16:20 <elliott> shachaf is a neutrino detector
22:16:58 <shachaf> elliott has a neutrino allergy
22:17:18 <kmc> that would be bad
22:17:57 <Bike> i thought neutrino detectors didn't detect very much.
22:18:30 <fizzie> Bike: I'm sure you could make some sort of a social media game out of one.
22:18:41 <fizzie> It goes "ping" in your facebooks and whatnot.
22:18:46 <shachaf> elliott: for every neutrino we detect there are trillions which go undetected
22:22:56 <FreeFull> They can only interact through the weak interaction
22:28:05 <shachaf> help there's such a thing as a monadic functor
22:37:42 <kmc> mathematicians are the worst
22:37:56 <elliott> mathematicians come in second
22:39:52 <elliott> katla: hey did you hear about the homotopy type theory book? I don't know if you're interested
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23:26:55 <elliott> lots of people are bored in #esoteric today
23:27:02 <kmc> is that so
23:27:20 <kmc> who is the third
23:28:23 <shachaf> so much time, so little to do
23:29:28 <katla> you ned to think of something new
23:30:08 <elliott> shachaf: because life sucks, hope this helps
23:30:31 <shachaf> elliott: instead of being bored you could read some more of that hott book you're such a big fan of
23:31:25 <elliott> you forgot to consider the part where I'm lazy
23:33:24 <shachaf> have you considered not being lazy
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00:26:24 <Fiora> elliott: can I join the bored
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00:27:07 <katla> im not bored anymore so you can use my space
00:27:57 <shachaf> Fiora: how are you all bored
00:28:22 <Bike> "Herr Slossenn Boschen accompanied himself. The prelude did not suggest a comic song exactly. It was a weird, soulful air. It quite made one’s flesh creep; but we murmured to one another that it was the German method, and prepared to enjoy it." wow this book is great.
00:28:28 <Bike> A+ would be shachaffed again.
00:29:02 <shachaf> Bike: good old Herr Slossenn Boschen
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00:30:30 <elliott> Fiora: you have been counted
00:30:30 <shachaf> Bike: are you sure the two students aren't the real heroes here
00:30:47 * Fiora went out and did some shopping and then kind of half fell asleep
00:30:47 <elliott> Fiora: you are filling in for katla
00:31:09 <elliott> well, katla was bored earlier.
00:31:14 <shachaf> Fiora: katla was previous bored and is no longer bored.
00:31:23 <shachaf> Therefore we had a boredom-vacuüm
00:31:46 <Fiora> oh. sorry, I just didn't know katla
00:32:55 <Bike> i don't either. we'll have to squeeze into the don't know katla spot.
00:33:01 <Bike> this whole system kinda sucks, honestly
00:34:35 <kmc> what did you shop
00:34:58 <kmc> is "vacuüm" really correct
00:35:09 <kmc> seems like that would imply three syllables
00:35:16 <shachaf> kmc: it's the dutch spelling hth
00:35:18 <shachaf> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacu%C3%BCm
00:35:20 <Bike> diacritics in english is like the opposite of correct. we'd have spelled it vacyuyuyum
00:35:42 <kmc> shachaf: ok
00:38:56 <lambdabot> *** "weir" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:38:56 <lambdabot> n 1: a low dam built across a stream to raise its level or
00:38:56 <lambdabot> 2: a fence or wattle built across a stream to catch or retain
00:40:54 <Fiora> https://gergely.imreh.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/watch500-e1371887874832.jpg wow these things look really doofy
00:42:48 <shachaf> hey Fiora if you're bored you could read the book Bike is reading
00:42:58 <Bike> NICE FONT CHOICE LOSER!!
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00:46:34 <katla> three men in a boat?
00:46:55 <Bike> not talking about a dog
00:47:22 <shachaf> why does a book have to be "about" something
00:47:59 <elliott> current data suggests it's about three men in a boat
00:48:07 <shachaf> it's about a trip four individuals took in a boat on the river
00:48:14 <shachaf> from hexham to finland or something
00:48:46 <shachaf> wait there are a lot of kingstons
00:49:00 <mnoqy> really it could be about anything
00:49:03 <Bike> i'm pretty sure it's kingston upon thames.
00:49:27 <ion> i'm pretty sure it's the memory manufacturer
00:49:34 <elliott> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Road,_Oxford it's actually a land boat on the shortest trip ever.
00:49:56 <Bike> (you're welcome shachaf)
00:50:13 <shachaf> maybe it's a trip from newcastle upon thames
00:50:51 <Bike> avon upon thames
00:51:22 <shachaf> Fiora: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/308
00:52:17 <Bike> it's weird looking up the locations and having them exist.
00:52:20 <Bike> england is weird.
00:52:23 <mnoqy> whoa gutenberg's shure changed over the years
00:52:34 <Bike> i'm not used to things, like. existing. for long periods.
00:52:48 <shachaf> hey this book is only from the 90s
00:53:45 <mnoqy> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/308/308-h/images/p255b.jpg i dunno guys this looks awfully like two men in a boat
00:53:52 <Bike> other points in favor of this book: it's by a double jerome
00:54:17 <elliott> Three Men In A Boat But One Of Them Turns Out To Be Invisible
00:54:34 <mnoqy> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/308/308-h/images/p281b.jpg ah so that's why they were in the boat
00:54:37 <shachaf> mnoqy: that picture is: Two novices in a boat
00:54:49 <shachaf> mnoqy: that picture is: The trout
00:55:01 <mnoqy> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/308/308-h/images/p301b.jpg PRIME THANKS
00:55:05 <shachaf> hey that trout is actually REDACTED
00:55:43 <HackEgo> Thanks, minister.. Thinister..
00:55:59 <mnoqy> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/308/308-h/images/p315b.jpg they found the magic man. the end.
00:56:00 <HackEgo> minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister \ minister
00:57:43 <mnoqy> yeah that's why hes magic
00:57:51 <mnoqy> u think im dumb???
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01:09:38 <shachaf> whoa, dude, http://www.1890s.ca/PDFs/hentschel_bio.pdf
01:11:41 <shachaf> Bike: please get a 7-byte nick hth
01:12:04 <kmc> http://www.php2python.com/ god's work
01:12:08 <Bike> how many charsper byte
01:12:45 <elliott> kmc: doesn't have anything for SndToJewish
01:12:54 <Bike> it's JdToJewish
01:13:10 <Bike> which. wow, it does have.
01:13:17 <Bike> no wait false alarm.
01:13:28 <elliott> SndToJewish is a thing too
01:13:59 <ion> The first search result: PHP :: Bug #64895 :: interger overflow in SndToJewish
01:14:05 <ion> Followed by: PHP up to 5.5.0 RC1 User Input Sanitizer SndToJewish buffer overflow
01:14:07 <shachaf> Now, this is a subject on which I flatter myself I really am au fait. The gentleman who, when I was young, bathed me at wisdom's font for nine guineas a term—no extras—used to say he never knew a boy who could do less work in more time; and I remember my poor grandmother once incidentally observing, in the course of an instruction upon the use of the Prayer-book, that it was highly improbable that I should ever do much that I ought not ...
01:14:13 <ion> Followed by: 93968: PHP SndToJewish Function Integer Overflow DoS
01:14:13 <shachaf> ... to do, but that she felt convinced beyond a doubt that I should leave undone pretty well everything that I ought to do.
01:14:27 <Bike> ion: yeah it was a security vunlerability, pretty rad.
01:15:00 <Bike> http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.jdtofrench.php ah yes
01:15:19 <Bike> If you want to convert a date later than September 22nd 1806, you could use this function. It's a bit crude and due to the fact the original function terminates in the middle of 1806, it uses 1805 as it's 'terminus post quem'.
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01:58:14 <Bike> Henry VIII. and Anne Boleyn.—Disadvantages of living in same house with pair of lovers.—A trying time for the English nation.—A night search for the picturesque.—Homeless and houseless.—Harris prepares to die.—An angel comes along.—Effect of sudden joy on Harris.—A little supper.—Lunch.—High price for mustard.—A fearful battle.—Maidenhead.—Sailing.—Three fishers.—We are cursed.
02:00:42 <shachaf> Gracenotes: You should read that book too!
02:01:10 <katla> what is the book about though?
02:01:28 <shachaf> Those are two different questions.
02:01:41 <shachaf> The book is _Three Men in a Boat_, by Jerome K. Jerome.
02:01:43 <shachaf> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/308
02:01:50 <shachaf> Yours is already answered.
02:02:09 <shachaf> Hmm, come to think about it, so was katla's.
02:02:16 <shachaf> 17:48 <shachaf> it's about a trip four individuals took in a boat on the river
02:05:19 <Gracenotes> mmm. for some reason, I don't think of Thames as being very wide
02:05:38 <Gracenotes> I think it gets narrower as it goes inland
02:08:42 <Gracenotes> also, I visited the marshes at the shoreline in Mountain View today by bike
02:08:54 <elliott> ok I honestly cannot read "bike" as anything but a name now
02:08:57 <Gracenotes> it's extremely window, so it looks like static bodies of water are flowing
02:09:08 <Gracenotes> and they are flowing, but only at the surface
02:10:26 <Bike> elliott: who do you think Gracenotes means? i live right by Mountain View.
02:10:40 <Bike> a place called that. probably the same. i mean how many views of mountains can there be.
02:11:02 <shachaf> Bike: oh you've come to visit Gracenotes?
02:11:06 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thunder-T.png see, look at their logo.
02:11:16 <Bike> i bet someone put over nine thousand hours of MS Paint work into that.
02:11:27 <Gracenotes> I'm not sure if the mountains to be viewed are the ones southwest of here or the ones northeast of here (across the bay)
02:11:43 <Bike> they probably only had one mountain in mind.
02:11:49 <Bike> i mean otherwise it would be Mountains View.
02:11:55 <shachaf> california has some p. good mountains
02:12:05 <Gracenotes> I think it just means that there exists a mountain
02:12:44 <Gracenotes> or it's a good place for mountain-viewing, but choice of mountain is left as discretion for the viewer
02:13:54 <Gracenotes> okay, I looked it up on the internet, and it is in fact the south/southwest mountains that are being referred to
02:14:04 <Bike> So what are the other mountains for?
02:14:17 <kmc> long island is p. long
02:14:32 <shachaf> kmc: california is p. long
02:14:40 <shachaf> "hence the comparison hth"
02:17:36 <Gracenotes> oh my, lows of 40 F (4 C) in the winter and 60 F (15 C) in the summer
02:19:57 <Bike> Cs for security for shachaf
02:25:14 <shachaf> Gracenotes: when it was winter here i didn't survive btw
02:29:03 <shachaf> too late "u'r already dead"
02:31:45 <Bike> it's nice to know the thames has always been polluted and gross
02:33:14 <Bike> always and forever
02:34:19 <Bike> «As early as the 1300s, the Thames was used as a means of disposing waste produced from the city of London, effectively turning the river into an open sewer. In 1357, Edward III described the state of the river in a proclamation: "...dung and other filth had accumulated in divers places upon the banks of the river with... fumes and other abominable stenches arising therefrom."»
02:35:46 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stink
02:36:05 <Bike> kmc: fantastic
02:36:08 <Gracenotes> if I already plan on putting brussel sprouts in my frittata, will mushroms be a good addition or not?
02:36:32 <kmc> seems every great city either has a sizeable river or is located on the ocean
02:36:56 <kmc> what's the best city with neither
02:37:16 <Bike> hm, tall order. overland transport is kind of hard.
02:37:38 <kmc> ocean or other large body of water, I should say
02:37:39 <Bike> maybe ulaanbataar, not that it's very big.
02:38:00 <Bike> oh damn, that's on a river too.
02:38:04 <kmc> there must be some huge landlocked cities in china by now
02:38:10 <kmc> but maybe not historically 'great' cities
02:38:31 <Bike> maybe one of the newer ones.
02:38:42 <Bike> in outer mongolia maybe?
02:38:50 <kmc> wow the seine is quite bendy
02:38:58 <kmc> i wonder if it was more or less bendy in the past
02:39:47 <kmc> the river in sarajevo is only a few inches deep
02:39:51 <kmc> but might have been deeper in the past
02:39:53 <Bike> hrm, the biggest city in inner mongolia is on the yellow river :x
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02:40:50 <Bike> so's the capital.
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02:41:53 <Bike> hm i think urumqi might be dry.
02:42:15 <Bike> aha! samarkand.
02:42:42 <Bike> "Oxus was the ancient Greek name of the Amu Daria River and Transoxiana (beyond the Oxus) was the region between this river and the Yaxarte (Syr Daria River). The city of Samarkand is located in a fertile valley midway between these two rivers. " god dammit.
02:43:59 <kmc> even phoenix has a river
02:44:16 <Bike> fuck you, phoenix.
02:45:53 <Gracenotes> your fucks are better allocated for the rest of arizona
02:49:27 <kmc> vegas is basically a shithole yes?
02:49:37 <kmc> i haven't been there but from what i hear
02:49:40 <Bike> but no river and that's what's important
02:49:40 <shachaf> Bike: "ve" means "and" in hebrew so i used to think that phrase meant "las and gas"
02:49:50 <shachaf> Bike: also i didn't actually know it was a place
02:50:01 <shachaf> i thought it was a microsoft word decoration style thing
02:50:03 <Bike> shachaf: it's hard to get that it exists from ads for it, yeah.
02:50:12 <Bike> rather than some kind of mystic territory
02:50:19 <kmc> there's a big themepark for drunk lecherous idiots which exists outside the city itself
02:50:31 <kmc> i should go sometime though
02:50:48 <kmc> feel like I can't fully understand American culture if I've never been to Vegas
02:51:42 <kmc> the city itself is urban decay + recently imported startup hipsters
02:51:49 <shachaf> http://www.bettersolutions.com/word/WVZ299/LL738921911.png
02:52:24 <Gracenotes> even detroit downtown is fun to visit, I think
02:52:34 <kmc> what do you do there
02:52:40 <Gracenotes> in the same sense that las vegas puts a lot of economic effort into its downtown
02:52:47 <Bike> wow, nevada has less than two dozen incorporated cities
02:53:04 <Gracenotes> kmc: is there that whole casino thing?
02:53:06 <kmc> i've been to reno
02:53:19 <Bike> kmc: according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Nevada
02:53:34 <kmc> Gracenotes: the fancy casinos are outside city limits
02:53:52 <kmc> it really is like a theme park
02:54:19 <Bike> huh i don't remember wherever i was being like that
02:54:24 <Bike> hugeass hotels right in the middle of town
02:54:39 <kmc> there are casinos and hotels in downtown vegas too but they have a seedy reputation
02:55:06 <kmc> at least that's my impression; I haven't been there
02:55:39 <Bike> meanwhile oregon has 242
02:55:46 <kmc> the CEO of Zappos is spending a bajillion dollars to turn downtown vegas into a startup hipster mecca
02:55:50 <Bike> maybe i've been overestimating how many cities are in places
02:55:56 <kmc> and pissing off a lot of people in the process
02:56:03 <Bike> kmc: aren't hipsters supposed to be environmentally conscious or some crap
02:56:14 <kmc> e.g. buying a whole building of low income housing and evicting everyone to make room for more hipsters
02:56:39 <Bike> hm, standards for "cities" sure do vary a lot between states
02:56:49 <kmc> https://www.evernote.com/shard/s10/sh/cb5049c0-54e7-477a-92a8-2f49e1fffbf2/96832700c99f170c665364a3414cf92a this is what I read on the subject recently
02:56:53 <Bike> "Kahlotus is a city in Franklin County, Washington, United States. The population was 193 at the 2010 census" e.g.
02:57:54 <Gracenotes> I think it's the same way that well-to-do silicon valley types can be very non-intentionally sexist and racist
02:57:54 <kmc> i've seen infinity versions of "why Bay Area startup culture is awful and is destroying SF" so it was interesting to read one about a different city
02:58:19 <kmc> interesting that so much has been written on these topics in the past few months
02:58:47 <kmc> I agree with most of the criticisms but I'm not sure where this bandwagon is going exactly, or who's pushing it
02:59:00 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/df8bcb1d55071af4c977aa82d3bccfcb/tumblr_mor89gqYUE1qcw9rdo1_400.jpg racism
02:59:14 <kmc> but in another week I will be one of those overpaid Mission software jerks so I'd better figure out my cultural context
03:00:13 <Gracenotes> before you know it, you'll be bragging about your distance in meters from Mark Zuckerberg and waiting in line for 2 hours to purchase artisan frozen yogurt.
03:00:19 <Bike> is self-hatred a context
03:00:19 <shachaf> oh no kmc is turning into a jerk :'(
03:00:26 <kmc> please, waiting in line? i'll hire a taskrabbit to do that for me
03:00:35 <kmc> Bike: the best context
03:00:53 <shachaf> Gracenotes: You really don't like people who wait in lines, huh?
03:00:53 <Gracenotes> but if you do it yourself, it makes the instagram so much more rewarding
03:01:07 <kmc> i did have some really good ice cream last time I was in SF
03:01:08 <Gracenotes> shachaf: not for pedestrian things, as such...
03:01:10 <kmc> only had to wait about 4 minutes
03:01:26 <kmc> salted ginger sundae from Bi-Rite
03:01:29 <kmc> yeah, different
03:01:39 <shachaf> Gracenotes: When kmc was in Mountain View we went to Yoogl.
03:01:42 <kmc> the froyo from "Yoogl" was ok but not fantastic
03:01:56 <Gracenotes> I see it as emblematic of something, although I'm trying to figure out what
03:02:08 <Bike> emblematic of Yoogl
03:02:15 <kmc> Google runs out of other things to do, acquires Yoogl
03:02:27 <quintopia> i want some salted caramel ice cream
03:02:38 <shachaf> quintopia: There's a good place in Palo Alto for it!
03:02:47 <kmc> also Gracenotes i'm pretty sure you should put mushrooms in your frittata
03:02:53 <quintopia> palo alto is not on the appalachian trail
03:02:59 <Gracenotes> I mean, Google NYC has gotten the Big Gay Ice Cream Truck to give out ice cream for free in the past (in one of its cafes)
03:03:09 <Bike> is the big gay ice cream truck a thing
03:03:14 <Bike> are there like models on it
03:03:16 <quintopia> you should move the town over here
03:03:26 <kmc> an ice cream truck that has sex with other ice cream trucks
03:03:35 <Bike> i need details re: gay trucks
03:03:45 <Gracenotes> it is the ice cream itself that is gay, not the truck
03:05:42 <shachaf> kmc: is that like s/ice cream truck/human/g
03:05:48 <shachaf> or is ice cream truck not a species of truck
03:06:07 <kmc> i don't know
03:06:30 <kmc> maybe 'ice cream truck' is a gender of truck
03:06:43 <Bike> gay ice cream sounds good too
03:06:45 <shachaf> how many genders of truck are there
03:06:49 <kmc> maybe a lot?
03:06:51 <Gracenotes> plus, it's an identity, not an indication of sexual truck activity
03:06:53 <kmc> there are a lot of sexes of mushroom
03:07:10 <kmc> or of mushrooms pore anyway
03:07:13 <kmc> mushroom spore*
03:08:25 <kmc> Gracenotes: you should grow your own mushrooms for food
03:08:41 <kmc> and you can grow them on recycled newspapers, cardboard, &c
03:08:47 <shachaf> apparently rick's ice cream is under new management and ruined now???????
03:08:54 <shachaf> perhaps i will investigate :'(
03:08:55 <Gracenotes> I don't trust any mushroom I can see grow
03:09:04 <kmc> its in palo alto?
03:09:15 <shachaf> yes, http://www.yelp.com/biz/ricks-ice-cream-palo-alto
03:09:42 <kmc> oyster mushrooms are very easy to grow yourself and very hard to confuse with any kind of poisonous kind of mushroom
03:09:55 <Gracenotes> hm, I don't usually cook with oyster mushrooms
03:10:12 <kmc> you can even get one from the grocery store and clone its tissue to make more mushrooms
03:10:14 <Gracenotes> but still, I will defer what is poisonous and not to mycologists
03:10:30 <kmc> they don't really do tissue specialization; a bit of the fruiting body can turn back into mycelium easily
03:10:46 <Bike> "eh, guess i don't really need these penises atm"
03:11:09 <shachaf> kmc: what if i confuse oyster mushrooms with oysters
03:11:16 <kmc> Gracenotes: for some types the identification is very easy; also if in doubt you can post to http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/3
03:11:19 <kmc> shachaf: dont
03:11:49 <shachaf> wow that's so many reviews
03:12:03 <shachaf> i gotta see what's going on there!!
03:12:33 <zzo38> I have made up a format of plugins of Famicom emulator to implement mappers and input devices, which is: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9283&p=113813#p113813
03:13:58 <Gracenotes> mushrooms are strange that way. I still think they are plants that wanted to become animals. (not exactly evolutionarily, but, from the perspective of the human palate)
03:14:42 <Gracenotes> which is obviously the end goal of evolution
03:15:45 <shachaf> the end goal of evolution is shachaf
03:15:57 <Fiora> so sushi is the end goal of evolution?
03:16:30 <Fiora> but the end goal of evolution is creating tasty human food
03:17:01 <shachaf> the trouble with sushi is that it's often made of dead fish
03:17:13 <zzo38> Fiora: That can't be correct.
03:17:20 <Bike> pretty sure it can be.
03:17:23 <Bike> i mean have you had sushi.
03:17:48 <shachaf> i had a sushi-like thing with kmc et al. in sf
03:17:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Not always. Sometimes it is made of live fish, and sometimes it doesn't even contain fish.
03:17:58 <shachaf> did that thing count as sushi? not sure
03:19:37 <kmc> it's fast food sushi
03:20:06 <Gracenotes> living might be used a bit speciously there
03:21:20 <Bike> wow, potato peeling technology was in a dismal state in the 1890s
03:21:22 <kmc> fiiiiiiiiiiiiiish
03:21:47 <kmc> shachaf: but I guess yours had no fish, so I don't know
03:21:54 <Bike> "George said it was absurd to have only four potatoes in an Irish stew, so we washed half-a-dozen or so more, and put them in without peeling" jesus christ
03:22:38 <shachaf> Bike: did you read _Pippi Longstocking_ hth
03:23:03 <zzo38> The skin is poison.
03:23:15 <Gracenotes> also, I think I did a bit too much burning in my brussel sprout frittata tonight
03:23:16 <kmc> not really
03:23:19 <kmc> only if it's turned green
03:23:33 <Gracenotes> shachaf: you may or may not be helping hth
03:23:34 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, the skin is poison if it is green.
03:23:47 <Bike> potatoes are some lovecraftian shit really
03:23:54 <Bike> good thing they're delicious
03:24:00 <kmc> the green thing is not perfectly correlated with poisonousness either
03:24:12 <zzo38> It is actually only a small poison though, and it isn't the green part that is poison.
03:25:03 <Bike> gosh, people were making jokes about bagpipes over a hundred years ago
03:28:54 <kmc> bagpipes, am i right
03:30:16 <Gracenotes> most things have an immunity from being ridiculed for a period of time
03:30:33 <zzo38> A Famicom emulator using this input plugin format need to somehow convert the user's input into MIDI; how it does this is specific to the emulator being in use.
03:32:09 <zzo38> Yes, they are similar to Famicom/NES.
03:33:23 <Bike> oh man, the description of rowing. 100% accurate
03:35:36 <zzo38> I intend to write some Z-machine interpreter for Famicom! Possibly Z-machine version 1 to 3, at first. The only existing iNES mapper I know that will do it is MMC5 although I have designed a simpler mapper with two 74xx series ICs, but this simpler one isn't emulated. However, the thing I don't know is how to make division/modulo of 16-bits in 6502 code.
03:36:26 <Gracenotes> district attorneys, am I right? https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/18/nyregion/after-sexual-abuse-case-a-hasidic-accuser-is-shunned-then-indicted.html?_r=2&
03:37:06 <Bike> Gracenotes: none
03:39:02 <Bike> Gracenotes: nasty.
03:39:39 <Gracenotes> if someone offers you money to keep something secret, you're actually extorting them
03:40:22 <Bike> people in remotely popular cases always do that shit.
03:40:31 <Bike> the zimmerman attorneys are playing similarly, apparently
03:42:07 <Gracenotes> a lot of non-hasidic-jew people I've talked to, even jews themselves, have had nothing but negative experiences with hasidic jews in NYC :/
03:42:30 <Gracenotes> anyway... not worth harping on, though...
03:42:56 <Bike> all i know is that hasidists are like theologically conservative and wear hats?
03:43:00 <kmc> yeah it is a weird, insular community that is quite hostile to the outside world
03:43:16 <kmc> even though they live in the middle of a fucking world city
03:44:28 <kmc> http://nymag.com/realestate/neighborhoods/2010/65356/
03:44:44 <Gracenotes> hm, I am going to be feeling this sunburn tomorrow
03:45:09 <shachaf> i remember when i removed my hair and then walked in the sun for a few hours
03:45:24 <kmc> 'Over at Search Engine Roundtable they have a lovely write-up about Chabad at Stanford’s “Google Glass Tefillin Stand.” Apparently students were given a chance to try on Google Glass and use it to put on Tefillin - complete with the blessings and Shema prayer.
03:45:36 <Gracenotes> should really get sunscreen, especially if I'm going to be going to places with almost no cloud cover, no trees, very windy, and close to shiny water
03:46:03 <Bike> scantily clad female riders
03:46:05 <Gracenotes> I've never seen it transliterated as shema
03:48:39 <kmc> Bike: did you know it's legal for women to be topless in public in NYC
03:49:00 <Gracenotes> kmc: although I think SF wins that one
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03:49:30 <Bike> kmc: yeah but only because of a webcomic i read, so that hardly counts
03:50:06 <kmc> Gracenotes: i have also heard it is legal for women to be topless in public in SF
03:50:16 <kmc> however full nudity (for men or women) is now illegal
03:50:21 <kmc> outside of certain special events
03:50:37 <Gracenotes> ah... yes, that's been in the works for a while
03:51:11 <Gracenotes> it's probably a result of nudists not caring much about towel etiquette
03:51:54 <Gracenotes> and also people who make generalizations
03:52:03 <Bike> they're the worst, generalizers
04:08:22 <kmc> still bored :/
04:08:43 <kmc> you're not my real father!
04:09:17 <shachaf> kmc: have you learned rust yet
04:09:26 <kmc> is there a well known thing in math like a "partial permutation", i.e. f :: X -> Maybe X such that if x ≠ y then f x ≠ f y unless they're both Nothing?
04:09:38 <kmc> shachaf: no, that's a thing I could do I suppose
04:11:25 <shachaf> @google partial permutation
04:11:25 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_permutation
04:11:26 <lambdabot> Title: Partial permutation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
04:11:31 <kmc> i'm playing with this idea of computation through character reëncoding and I think a reëncode operation is like one of these
04:12:19 <kmc> probably some reëncodings aren't injective either but I'm setting that aside for now
04:14:03 <Bike> that looks like the same, i think.
04:14:14 <Bike> with "the special hole symbol" instead of nothing.
04:14:38 <kmc> U+1F3C9 'SPECIAL HOLE SYMBOL'
04:15:13 <kmc> → used to mark special holes on maps
04:17:23 <mnoqy> special holes, eh?
04:22:21 <Bike> well, that book was amusing.
04:26:50 <kmc> http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_AndrewD/frankchu_pinklady_davitydave.jpg san francisco
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05:31:26 <kmc> much is made of the way the Internet provides global access to knowledge, but I should think that access to beauty is at least as significant
05:31:48 <kmc> I think it's really cool how most of the music ever written is now available anywhere for free
05:32:07 <Bike> i must say i quite enjoy that.
05:33:15 <shachaf> on the other hand most of it has drums in it
05:33:23 <shachaf> so can you truly call it beauty?
05:33:40 <kmc> shachaf: I listened to Set Fire to Flames today, some of that didn't have drums
05:33:47 <Fiora> most paintings also have oil in them hth
05:33:55 <Fiora> (am I doing a good shachaf impression)
05:33:55 <Bike> shachaf is condemned to eternal post-rock.
05:34:00 <kmc> it's a GY!BE side project of sorts
05:34:12 <Bike> oh i didn't know that
05:34:25 <Bike> i just, kind of assume all post-rock is made by individuals, with goatees or something probably
05:34:30 <Bike> and they live in canada
05:34:35 <kmc> you're right about that part
05:34:41 <shachaf> Fiora: "hth" isn't a shachaf impression...
05:34:48 <shachaf> Fiora: It's an oerjan impression. hth
05:34:49 <Fiora> oh... I don't know who does that then >_<
05:35:05 <Bike> i think hth is just an #esoteric thing.
05:35:14 <kmc> i've seen it crop up elsewhere
05:35:39 <kmc> hth and abbreviations 'p.' and 'v.' were both popular on SomethingAwful shitposting subforums years ago
05:35:54 <kmc> Laissez's Faire and YOSPOS
05:35:54 <Bike> yeah i picked up "p." from a goon
05:36:12 <Bike> i've heard so many horror stories about laissez's faire
05:36:27 <shachaf> kmc: what about cobol "is that the place to be"
05:36:40 <Bike> last time i looked at cobol it seemed pretty dull.
05:37:17 <kmc> there's a lot of overlap in terms of personnel between GY!BE and {A,The,Thee} Silver Mount Zion {,Reveries,Memorial Orchestra,Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La Band,Memorial Orchestra and Tra-La-La Band with Choir}
05:37:28 <shachaf> Fiora: Also I'm not sure what point you were making?
05:38:01 <kmc> also some of the same people decided to play Yiddish folk music under the name Black Ox Orkestar
05:38:13 <Bike> help i'm drowning in stereotypes.
05:39:06 <kmc> Gracenotes: or lack thereof?
05:39:11 <Gracenotes> if you can't say something acerbic and witty, say something sincere. is the usual strategy.
05:39:57 <kmc> btw the newest GY!BE album is really good
05:40:06 <shachaf> if you can't say something acerbic and witty, don't say anything at all
05:40:36 <Bike> what's the new album called
05:40:45 <Bike> (is it expressible in unicode)
05:42:01 <Gracenotes> not everything is expressible, after all. The Artist Formerly Known as Prince still doesn't have a character
05:44:21 <kmc> it's called 'Allelujah! Don't Bend! Ascend!
05:44:30 <kmc> including that leading quote
05:44:38 <kmc> so it's ascii, v. boring
05:44:44 <Bike> http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/yi.FrRlICOSy2dxEhRG_oQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/finance/2013-06-17/d08066ad-f8b7-4fb6-b276-b50b7cb4df55_PSYCH.jpg
05:44:50 <kmc> not like F♯ A♯ ∞
05:46:52 <Gracenotes> or that programming language, coctothorpe
05:47:31 <Gracenotes> I've only listened to a little bit of GY!BE in the past
05:49:37 <kmc> "...it also appears on bandmember Aidan Girt's related project 1-Speed Bike's debut album Droopy Butt Begone! (2000)"
05:50:29 <Bike> of course they use fixies.
05:50:48 <kmc> i must object pedantically that not all 1-speed bikes are fixies
05:52:28 <kmc> also TIL some bikes use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hub_gear instead of a deraileur
05:52:32 <kmc> cool looking
05:53:21 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Speed1c.png
05:53:39 <Bike> ooh, epicyclic gears
05:54:53 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft-driven_bicycle
05:55:24 <Bike> i'm so behind on the world of my people.
05:55:45 <kmc> hm that would be nice because it wouldn't try to eat my pants
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05:56:23 <kmc> do i want to buy a €2000 shaft driven dutch electric folding bicycle
05:57:01 <kmc> pretty sure i do
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07:49:34 <AnotherTest> Ugh, why does middle mouseclick close my tabs
07:49:49 <fizzie> Hello from a TRAIN trains are the best oh no I was even slowest
07:50:07 <shachaf> fizzie: #cslounge-trains is the channel for that
07:50:44 <fizzie> The Wi-Fi in this train is the worst though #zerothworldproblems
07:52:24 <Taneb> I bet the wifi is better than the wifi on the Hexham to Newcastle train
07:52:41 <fizzie> This used to be like six hours but nowadays it's four and a half.
07:53:23 <fizzie> Fun fact: "Joensuu" can be translated "Joe's mouth".
07:53:32 <shachaf> Taneb: here in america they haven't invented trains yet but there are buses
07:53:59 <fizzie> (Though really it's "river's mouth".)
07:54:15 <Bike> man. pedestrian trains. that's some sci-fi shit.
07:55:15 <shachaf> Bike: hey you could take the train here so san francisco
07:56:14 <fizzie> Sadly, the river is called "Pielisjoki".
07:57:00 <shachaf> Hmm, I missed my N000th birthday. :-(
07:57:10 <fizzie> (Pielinen is the related lake.)
07:57:13 <Bike> i took the train past salem once but that's about it.
07:57:23 <Taneb> Does Pielinen mean Pasty
07:58:01 <fizzie> Taneb: Not as far as I know.
07:58:07 <Bike> AnotherTest: 10
07:59:17 <Taneb> Because it sounds like "Pie lining"
07:59:29 <fizzie> Do people use flexible number systems where you can use digits larger than the base?
07:59:30 <HackEgo> 417) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
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08:00:01 <AnotherTest> fizzie: that would just mean making the base larger
08:01:45 <fizzie> AnotherTest: No, it wouldn't.
08:01:53 <shachaf> Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs?
08:02:28 <fizzie> AnotherTest: E.g. A0 in flexible base-ten would be 10*10.
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08:03:10 <shachaf> fizzie: That sounds awful. :-(
08:03:10 <fizzie> You'd have multiple encodings of same number, of cvoursr.
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08:04:10 <fizzie> I tried to be fast on a touchscreen keyboard.
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08:05:41 <fizzie> Also, the Finnish lake wiki does not know the etymology of the name "Pielinen".
08:06:20 <fizzie> AnotherTest: 10*10^3 + 11.
08:08:20 <fizzie> Just sum_i x_i * 10^i but with (some) x_i >= 10.
08:10:25 <zzo38> Flexible base-ten? Is that something like what dc does?
08:11:08 <fizzie> I don't recall what dc does, but maybe it isd.
08:11:44 <zzo38> Regardless of what the input base is in dc, you can always use 0 to 9 and A to F as digits, and it will do like that.
08:14:53 <fizzie> `run echo AA B0 110 f | dc
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12:15:34 <elliott> kmc: should i learn to ride a bicycle [in: re: bike talk]
12:16:20 <shachaf> elliott: what........youdon'tknowhowtorideabicycle.......
12:16:25 <shachaf> oops i forgot how to press space
12:17:05 <elliott> i think i knew at one point
12:17:27 <shachaf> elliott: well i forgot to do it for about three words
12:17:34 <shachaf> then i liked the effect so i finished the sentence
12:17:36 <olsner> you should learn unicycling instead
12:18:10 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, you should learn to ride a bicycle.
12:18:20 <shachaf> But first you should learn how to ride a bicycle, if you don't know.
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18:21:50 <katla> copumpkin its kinda boring
18:35:45 <FreeFull> I can't figure out how to make a not gate in this cellular automaton
18:37:39 <kmc> elliott: yes, you should
18:38:05 <elliott> kmc: before or after the LSD
18:38:07 <mnoqy> elliott: you don't know how to bike??
18:38:12 <elliott> gotta order my kmc advices
18:38:18 <elliott> mnoqy: well i actually don't know if i do or not...
18:38:27 <elliott> like i'm pretty sure i "sort of" could at one point?
18:39:37 <Bike> a glider gun that turns off when struck?
18:40:29 <Gracenotes> {AND, OR} isn't functionally complete, yeah
18:42:41 <kmc> shachaf: should I pester sites that submit login credentials over HTTPS but serve the login form over plain HTTP?
18:42:49 <kmc> or is this one of those things where everyone does it and you'll never get them to change
18:44:21 <kmc> FreeFull: what
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19:10:02 <katla> i dont know this CA
19:11:35 <nooodl> i'm messing around with it right now
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19:11:52 <Bike> it's not a very catchy name
19:12:20 <Bike> oh shit, von neumann's, huh
19:13:52 <nooodl> FreeFull: how would a not gate even work
19:14:30 <nooodl> output a bunch of green arrows all the time unless it receives a blue arrow? (pro technical terms)
19:14:37 <nooodl> i mean receives a green arrow
19:14:58 <nooodl> i mean "excited ordinary transmission state"
19:15:12 <Bike> that would make sense to me
19:15:12 <FreeFull> nooodl: That'd be a true inverter
19:15:18 <FreeFull> Although alternatives are welcome too
19:16:14 <FreeFull> OR is just multiple wires leading into the same spot
19:16:23 <FreeFull> AND is the same, but that spot has a green thing there
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19:18:01 <FreeFull> I have a feeling it's more complicated than it seems
19:18:20 <FreeFull> A switch should be easy enough though
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19:21:29 <FreeFull> So I guess you could make an inverter if you figure out how to grab the leading edge of a continuous current
19:22:04 <FreeFull> It'd have a limit on how often it could be toggled though
19:24:16 <nooodl> i managed to create a continuous stream of green thingies! i guess that's something
19:24:56 <FreeFull> nooodl: It's not that easy if you don't have a convienient reference
19:26:07 <nooodl> ok so there was a very easy way to do what i just did. oops
19:31:07 <FreeFull> I wonder how you'd go about getting the leading edge of a signal
19:31:36 <oklopol> JvN29/Nobili32/Hutton32 is this in the naming scheme of some program?
19:31:52 <Bike> is it not golly's?
19:31:58 * Bike assumes everybody working with CAs uses golly.
19:32:23 <Bike> http://golly.sourceforge.net/Help/Algorithms/JvN.html
19:33:18 <FreeFull> Well, golly doesn't do all CAs
19:33:24 <FreeFull> But yeah, I am using golly right now
19:33:44 <nooodl> hmmmm i found a way to disable the stream
19:33:50 <nooodl> but how to turn it on again...
19:34:32 <oklopol> i haven't done much with golly
19:34:44 <oklopol> enough to know that it's really primitive
19:35:31 <FreeFull> oklopol: I bet you only messed around with one rule
19:35:47 <nooodl> http://i.imgur.com/I7neyO2.png
19:35:54 <oklopol> we implemented the thing i mentioned the other day in golly
19:35:58 <nooodl> am i vaguely on the right track?
19:36:10 <oklopol> we usually use mathematica for experimentation, it's at least slightly more usable
19:36:56 <oklopol> s/experimentation/playing around/
19:37:53 <nooodl> i don't even know how to use the red arrows
19:38:06 <nooodl> sending signals to them makes them... disappear...
19:39:17 <FreeFull> nooodl: Oh, the cyan diamond becomes an and gate if it has more than one input
19:39:30 <oklopol> i mean golly doesn't even compute preimages
19:39:36 <FreeFull> nooodl: What I did was use red arrows
19:39:51 <nooodl> oh i think i see what you mean
19:41:34 <oklopol> "The address wasn't understood"
19:42:58 <oklopol> but 29 states? that sounds way too complicated to work with
19:43:31 <nooodl> nah it makes a lot of sense
19:44:04 <oklopol> are some of the states like tails of moving particles or something like that
19:44:21 <nooodl> basically you have "wires" that you send signals over, encoding which symbol to make at the end of the wire in binary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VonNeumann_CA_demo.gif
19:46:06 <oklopol> i think i've seen a constructor arm draw and undraw something in an example in maybe cellebration, perhaps it was this rule
19:51:50 <Sgeo> How often do normal people do laundry?
19:52:29 <kmc> varies, probably about once a week
19:52:51 <kmc> that's among people i know anyway, which ≠ "normal people"
19:52:52 <Sgeo> I've been doing it once a week, it's kind of frustrating having a weekly chore like that though
19:53:02 <kmc> you can buy more clothes and do laundry less often
19:53:26 <mnoqy> buy more clothes and never do laundry
19:56:47 <Sgeo> If I want to bring dead norns back to life, I should probably work on that rather than reading a book (note: norns are virtual creatures, not real. So there, I'm not tricking anyone)
19:57:55 <kmc> what if it's a book about how to bring dead norns back to life
19:58:45 <Sgeo> A book on reverse engineering would probably help... or ... some way of understanding undocumented binary data files
19:59:22 <Sgeo> My current plans are to try to get a copy of a norn, alive, and then kill it, and compare with some sort of hex editor comparison thing
19:59:29 <Sgeo> I know that program exists, I've used it before
20:00:17 <Bike> what if dead norns are free()d. tragic imo
20:02:52 <Sgeo> Not looking in memory, but to export
20:03:14 <Sgeo> Which saves norns on disk. Don't think it's possible with the normal UI to export a dead norn, but a bit of CAOS should do the trick
20:03:36 <Sgeo> Although it might not, and even if it does, what if a bunch of critical data is deleted...
20:09:02 <Gracenotes> in the particular region of the world I am living in
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20:24:54 <shachaf> kmc: it depends on how much you care hth
20:25:43 <olsner> Sgeo: you do laundry when you need your clothes cleaned, hth
20:25:56 <shachaf> You could probably make some difference sometimes but probably the people you talk to won't care on average.
20:26:06 <kmc> what are you talking about
20:26:12 <kmc> shachaf.......................
20:26:28 <olsner> he seems to be talking about that https thing you mentioned ages ago
20:26:30 <kmc> oh HTTPS login forms?
20:26:44 <Sgeo> What about https login forms?
20:27:04 <kmc> 14:42 <+kmc> shachaf: should I pester sites that submit login credentials over HTTPS but serve the login form over plain HTTP?
20:28:16 <elliott> kmc: that was at 19:42 hth
20:31:18 <Sgeo> EV certificates are fun
20:32:21 <Sgeo> Why not have registrars be the ones to sign certificates?
20:33:16 <Sgeo> Seems to make sense, it's the registrar who you buy foo.com from, the registrar should be the one to prove you bought foo.com
20:33:34 <Sgeo> Don't know how that would work with independently operated subdomains though
20:33:46 <kmc> I guess it is OK for low security sites to say that active attacks are outside the threat model
20:33:55 <kmc> but I think people underestimate how easy active attacks are
20:34:03 <kmc> or really any attack where they haven't seen it done
20:34:56 <kmc> I bet you can find a lot of interesting stuff by sitting in cafés in SF and running an open wifi access point
20:36:58 <olsner> I don't really know how to run an active attack, perhaps it would be useful to learn a bit more about that stuff
20:42:23 <kmc> too fucking hot here (Boston)
20:42:58 <kmc> going to hit 97°F / 36°C tomorrow
20:43:04 <kmc> shachaf: working on it
20:43:11 <kmc> my cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuube arrives tomorrow
20:43:58 <elliott> helliott, b/c i'm from hell
20:44:26 <kmc> moving cube
20:44:33 <shachaf> Someone should warn elliott about the perils of being so rude.
20:44:43 <kmc> they park a big box in my driveway, I fill it with all my stuff, then they pick it up and haul it to SF
20:44:51 <Bike> oh one of those cubes
20:45:10 <olsner> shachaf: what are those perils, exactly?
20:45:48 <elliott> kmc: nobody knows where the cube came from or who owns it. for years we have moved like this. we dare not watch the cube. we tell ourselves stories about how it must get moved but the truth is we don't want to know. cube
20:45:50 <shachaf> olsner: for example people might not enjoy being around you
20:45:58 <shachaf> you might be kicked out of the channel and/or country
20:46:16 <kmc> elliott: seems accurate
20:47:34 <elliott> kmc: the real question is what kind of cube would want to go to san francisco amirite
20:47:39 <Gracenotes> a cube is convenient if you only have weekends available
20:47:51 <Gracenotes> and I haven't made plans to bring it over here yet
20:48:20 <kmc> a fair amount of my stuff is still in NY even though I left NY three years ago
20:48:24 <elliott> also costs your soul. the secret bargain of the cube
20:48:29 <kmc> most notably a queen size bed + mattress
20:48:34 <kmc> which is probably full of bedbugs by now :'(
20:48:48 <elliott> that's what people tell themselves yes
20:48:51 <olsner> oh, Gracenotes is here now
20:48:53 <Gracenotes> bedbugs die after 3-9months without people around
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20:49:04 <kmc> they're being stored in an apt not cold storage
20:49:11 <kmc> i think........ i'm not sure tbh
20:49:13 <elliott> it just has dead beadbugs then
20:49:15 <kmc> friend of a friend of a friend has them
20:49:37 <olsner> maybe they sleep in it to feed the bed bugs
20:50:10 <kmc> anyway it will probably cost less to buy a new bed than to ship one across the country
20:51:28 <olsner> why didn't you simply bring the bed when you moved out of wherever you lived it?
20:51:46 <elliott> beds aren't really cube-y, see
20:51:58 <olsner> oh, it only accepts cube-shaped objects?
20:52:07 <elliott> yes. there are Rules, olsner
20:52:29 <elliott> there are stories of those who put non-cube-shaped objects in the cube but nobody has ever met somebody who has done so
20:52:45 <olsner> They tried and failed?
20:53:26 <kmc> that move was not by cuuuuuuuuuube it was by TRAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN
20:53:40 <elliott> olsner: no the cube ate them, RIP
20:54:08 <kmc> i saw a bedbug at mcdonald's once
20:55:45 <olsner> alive or dead? I think they're supposed to kill them before making burgers out of them
20:55:54 <kmc> alive, crawling on the furniture
20:56:09 <kmc> that sounds like a radiohead lyric but i don't think it is
20:56:49 <kmc> bedbugs don't transmit HIV or other bloodborne diseases
20:56:55 <kmc> last i saw, nobody is quite sure why
20:57:01 <kmc> mosiquitos don't transmit HIV either
20:57:02 <kmc> v. fortunate
20:57:41 <olsner> alive and crawling on the furniture describes me looking for the snooze button
20:58:08 <olsner> there's a difference in dimension between me and a bed bug though
20:58:24 <Bike> bedbugs are intruders from the seventh dimension
21:02:38 <Gracenotes> yeah, once I slept on my bed and got bite-looking marks, but I think it was just skin irritation
21:02:47 <olsner> and they are actually about the size of elephants, it's just that only the very tips of their snout-tips protrude into our little 3d subspace
21:03:01 <kmc> bedbug bites are pretty distinctive
21:03:07 <kmc> raised itchy red bumps, usually in groups
21:03:29 <Gracenotes> yeah, these were not really raised in the same way mosquito marks are. er.. probably.
21:03:30 <kmc> sometimes i find little beatles in my bed but they aren't bedbugs
21:03:43 <kmc> they're probably just foraging for delicious dead skin flakes
21:03:55 <shachaf> do they have a beat at least
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21:04:05 <shachaf> wow tell them to rename themselves
21:04:16 <kmc> i have misspelled a word :(
21:04:26 <Gracenotes> I'm a bit more discriminatory about the dead skin flakes I eat
21:04:42 <shachaf> kmc: it's on your permanent record hth
21:05:11 <shachaf> Gracenotes also plays the piano "unlike kmc's bedbeatles"
21:05:37 <Gracenotes> in summary I am a lot better than a beetle/beatle
21:06:21 <Sgeo> Why does Facebook have mixed content?
21:07:52 <Bike> aare you a white nationalist
21:12:28 <Sgeo> As in, http content is displayed despite using https
21:12:40 <Sgeo> That should have been obvious as to being what I meant
21:15:43 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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21:38:40 <Taneb> Tomorrow afternoon, I start doing all the things I have meant to do for a while
21:38:56 <Taneb> 2) Write tutorial for the tables library
21:39:15 <Taneb> I can't think of any more
21:39:16 <Bike> what's it like, performing actions
21:39:22 <Bike> 3) think of more things to do
21:39:32 <Taneb> 4) Spraypaint these toy guns gold
21:40:01 <kmc> what's (4) for
21:40:12 <Bike> now you're talking
21:40:19 <Taneb> kmc, Homestuck cosplay, I am afraid
21:40:35 <kmc> do they have orange tips and are you spraypainting those too
21:40:48 <Taneb> I am not sure what the relevant law is in this country
21:41:04 <kmc> maybe find out
21:41:08 <Taneb> I believe because they are obviously not real guns and I am not going to be using them in a threatening manner I should be safef
21:41:13 <kmc> before you get shot by the po-lice
21:41:17 <Bike> obviously, he says
21:41:30 <kmc> Taneb: is that based on a specific reading of the law or on 'common sense'
21:41:49 <kmc> because, the law does not follow 'common sense'
21:42:35 <Taneb> kmc, a specific reading of a website once
21:43:45 <kmc> anyway Happy Don't Get Shot By The Police While Cosplaying Homestuck Day
21:45:28 <Taneb> 5) organize picnic
21:46:06 <Taneb> 6) fix new graphics card driver problems, unrelated to the Chinese Graphics Card problem
21:47:34 <Taneb> 7) identify monads which do not have an applicative instance, or applicatives which do not have a functor instance, or monads which don't have a functor instance on Hackage, and fix them
21:48:19 <olsner> why would you follow that nice long list with something useful like 7
21:48:36 <Taneb> olsner, for what it's worth, I've already started 7
21:49:00 <Taneb> 8) figure out a kind of beer I like other than Budweiser
21:49:26 <Taneb> 9) attend picnic that I have organized
21:50:00 <kmc> do you mean the american Budweiser?
21:50:28 <Taneb> I mean the Budweiser that I can and have bought in the UK
21:51:22 <kmc> sounds like both the US and the German beer can be purchased in the UK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budweiser
21:51:40 <Taneb> Looking at the logos I suspect it is the US one
21:51:41 <kmc> er German / Czech
21:52:55 <kmc> that is such a boring beer
21:53:11 <Taneb> I am not a very good beer drinker
21:53:28 <Taneb> Most beers I can only drink a pint and a half before I sort of slow right down with the drinking
21:53:43 <Taneb> US Budweiser I can keep going past three pints
21:55:01 <Taneb> I prefer wine, but wine goes straight to my head and then I fall over
21:55:14 <Taneb> Do not like the taste of stronger alcohol at all
21:55:46 <Taneb> Or cider, for that matter, but that is because I don't really like the taste of apple juice
21:56:13 <Taneb> 10) find the charger for my phone
21:57:01 <Taneb> 11) figure out what one is actually supposed to do when in a relationship
21:57:45 <Taneb> 12) learn how to use one or more of pipes/conduit etc
21:58:05 <Taneb> 13) fix that C program I wrote ages ago that never actually worked but should interpret SK calculus
21:59:28 <Taneb> 14) watch Supernatural
21:59:42 <Taneb> I think that should do for now
22:00:57 <shachaf> by which i mean has those carbon dioxide bubbles i don't care how they got in there!!
22:01:07 <olsner> in that sense, yes it can be
22:01:08 <Taneb> elliott, isn't it your 18th in about two months?
22:01:53 <Taneb> I don't recommend beer except for social reasons, it isn't actually that nice
22:02:16 <shachaf> Taneb: which drugz would you recommend
22:02:23 <olsner> "for social reasons" == to get drunk?
22:02:38 <Bike> to get drunk /in society/ see
22:03:09 <Taneb> olsner, Bike knows what's what
22:03:21 <kmc> i think beer is tasty
22:03:22 <Taneb> shachaf, paracetamol is good for headaches!
22:03:30 <kmc> it comes in a lot of different kinds
22:03:34 <Taneb> But I here ibuprofen is good too
22:03:39 <kmc> paracetamol is pretty dangerous
22:04:05 <elliott> i might be interested in beer except for the drunkenness part
22:04:09 <Taneb> kmc, my house is full of paracetamol
22:04:11 <Taneb> elliott, try shandy
22:04:21 <Bike> well it's not like you just have a beer and instantly start dancing on tables.
22:04:31 <elliott> Bike: i think you'll find that is exactly how it works
22:04:49 <Taneb> Bike, I dance on tables before beer
22:04:53 <Taneb> Am I doing something wrong?
22:04:54 <Bike> Well yeah, me too.
22:04:56 <Bike> I'm just saying.
22:05:01 <olsner> I almost never dance on tables
22:05:03 <Bike> Stupid scrabble doesn't accept 'init', fuck you scrabble
22:05:18 <olsner> it's spelled innit, innit
22:05:24 <shachaf> Bike: uh, you can accept whatever words you like, hth
22:06:51 <kmc> i've read that a lot of the effects of alcohol intoxication turn out to be culture-bound
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22:07:32 <olsner> some university here secretly replaced all the beer with alcohol free beer, everyone got pretendshitfaced anyway
22:07:49 <Bike> psychology: the troll science
22:07:59 <shachaf> free beer as in free lunch, not as in alcohol free beer
22:08:03 <kmc> it provides a social context where it's somewhat more ok to make a fool of yourself
22:08:08 <kmc> and people take advantage of that
22:08:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alcohol_use_disorders_world_map_-_DALY_-_WHO2004.svg wow
22:08:20 <shachaf> alcohol: the #esoteric of life
22:08:49 <olsner> #esoteric: the alcohol of death
22:08:59 <Bike> uhhhh what's that country above ukraine
22:09:09 <olsner> where the hell is ukraine?
22:09:25 <kmc> what about belarus
22:09:26 <Bike> oh yeah belarus.
22:09:30 <Bike> olsner: south of belarus
22:10:03 <kmc> I have a friend in Minsk, who has a friend in Pinsk, whose friend in Omsk has friend in Tomsk with friend in Akmolinsk
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22:10:58 <olsner> hmm, did serbia and montenegro use to be one country called "Serbia and Montenegro"?
22:11:14 <kmc> the small bright red country next to ukraine is hungary I guess
22:11:30 <Bike> so speaking of drugz
22:11:32 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKqV_ybCS-I this is great
22:11:35 <Bike> everyone should see it
22:11:53 <elliott> i like how "so speaking of drugz" works as a transition regardless of whether drugz were in fact being spoken of previously
22:11:59 <kmc> it was tho
22:12:04 <Bike> i'm good at segue
22:12:14 <elliott> yeah but the conversation had kind of moved on from drugz
22:12:17 <elliott> but the impact was still there
22:12:22 <Bike> like hell that's gonna stop me
22:12:35 <elliott> wait i saw this video like ten years ago
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22:13:26 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HarmCausedByDrugsTable.svg
22:13:53 <Bike> elliott: was it good then too
22:14:10 <olsner> looks like meth has a pretty good ratio between self-harm and other-harm
22:14:17 <zzo38> With four NAND gates (a single IC, if you aren't counting the PRG ROM, PRG RAM, and CHR ROM/RAM), you can add 8K PRG RAM (with the added ability to write to two variables at once if wanted), an extra 32K PRG ROM bank (which cannot be accessed during rendering, therefore you might store level data which is loaded into RAM), and increase the number of possible tiles from 256 to 320.
22:15:05 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> the trouble with sushi is that it's often made of dead fish
22:15:09 <HackEgo> 1060) <shachaf> the trouble with sushi is that it's often made of dead fish
22:16:16 <Bike> i would also recommend kyle for more 'drugz videos'
22:17:13 <Taneb> Isn't sushi rice and vinegar
22:17:57 <shachaf> Bike: when you move to sf kmc can be your dealer too
22:17:57 <Taneb> Shouldn't I be in bed
22:17:58 <Fiora> yeah, sushi refers to the rice
22:18:44 <shachaf> i had a dream where my computer was stolen
22:18:54 <shachaf> (hint i actually do have no backups)
22:20:11 <elliott> I also don't have backups :(
22:20:41 <shachaf> elliott: yes well my files are more important than your files so it's a bigger deal
22:20:45 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5gh77AD9ZU
22:20:51 <shachaf> also i have $50 of unused tarsnap credit
22:21:04 <shachaf> and about 0.5MB of files that i would really be sad if i lost
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22:21:19 <Bike> is tarsnap a sex thing
22:22:19 <elliott> what are the 0.5 mbs of files
22:23:34 <kmc> cyberdrugz
22:24:13 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdwchohlMjI i'm just going to watch kyle all day now
22:24:21 <kmc> i have backups but not off-site
22:24:25 <kmc> also they're all horribly organized
22:24:49 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to put your backups in your cube
22:24:59 <kmc> it's all like backup-20130126/backup2/home/keegan/backup/backup-20120708/home/keegan/backup/backup-20110916/
22:25:17 <Bike> i just dump my home folder everywhere
22:25:21 <kmc> except also that in tarballs so it's hard to search
22:25:33 <elliott> kmc: are they all like, on the same disk...
22:25:36 <kmc> i'm kind of surprised there isn't a more standard solution for making a tarball with random access
22:25:39 <kmc> elliott: yes
22:25:48 <Bike> recursive backups
22:25:55 <elliott> kmc: on the disk that you're actually backing up from
22:25:56 <shachaf> elliott: after enough nesting your backups go to a parallel dimension
22:26:15 <kmc> the whole pile is synced to several drives
22:26:29 <Bike> i for one keep all my horse porn on RAID
22:26:49 <kmc> i don't think i have any horse porn
22:27:00 <Bike> want me to hook you up
22:27:05 <kmc> no thank you
22:27:21 <shachaf> kmc: should i become a member of "hackerdojo"............................
22:27:24 <elliott> you don't think, but you're not sure
22:27:33 <kmc> shachaf: stupid name, might be cool tho?
22:27:39 <shachaf> finally i can learn to be a ninja
22:28:21 <kmc> is it full of startup douchebags
22:28:52 <Bike> teaching martial arts to startup douchebags might be lucrative
22:28:53 <kmc> and is that better or worse than noisebridge's complement of white supremicists and homeless crackheads
22:29:02 <Bike> charge them approximately a billion per session
22:30:06 <kmc> Bike: you should help them invent their own new 'disruptive' form of martial arts
22:30:14 <kmc> it's much better because it's designed by programmers and YC alumni
22:30:23 <kmc> then film them as they hurt themselves in hilarious ways
22:30:49 <kmc> shachaf: also you should get a job and move to the city
22:31:10 <kmc> good job / good city
22:31:16 <kmc> san fran cisco
22:31:49 <Bike> boxers are damn good
22:33:49 <elliott> kmc: should i get a job and move to the city
22:34:30 <shachaf> are there any cities in england
22:34:45 <shachaf> you could move to scotland
22:34:53 <olsner> I think they call them towns in england
22:34:56 <elliott> maybe i'll move to scotland if they declare independence
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22:39:48 <kmc> the City of London
22:41:49 <elliott> i could never live in london i think
22:43:27 <Bike> only in period dramas.
22:47:57 <kmc> the City is the tiny financial district right?
22:48:03 <kmc> those are usually not a great place to actually live
22:48:28 <elliott> well i meant london in general
22:48:33 <elliott> but yeah the city is like.. a mile or something
22:51:34 <kmc> Fiora: you might be interested in http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2013/06/23/bitsets-match-regular-expressions/
22:51:44 <kmc> also it relates to that approximate matching "agrep" stuff y'all were talking about
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22:56:55 <Fiora> bike was throwing that at me the other day actually O_O it was really tricky to understand
22:57:14 <Fiora> wow that's a long post, okay, I'll try to understand it again
22:58:12 <Bike> it has annotated assembly, just as god intended
22:58:41 <Bike> well, anyway, the NSA is no longer a threat http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/us_offensive_cy.html#c1538650
22:59:12 <Bike> NSA would have their work cut out for them trying to logic bomb a hardened gentoo or even fedora workstation running grsec and selinux policy, surrounded by a locked down openbsd network firewall and router.
22:59:51 <kmc> *smokes a joint rolled from pages of Neuromancer*
23:00:45 <Bike> agrep is pretty cool
23:01:07 <Bike> when he tweeted that thing i was inspired enough to write a shitty implementation of bitap on fixed strings with no errors
23:01:54 <Bike> and then fail to explain it to fiora or anybody
23:01:56 <Bike> and so here we are.
23:02:59 <Sgeo> Which is more generally loathed, Cold Fusion or PHP?
23:03:15 <Bike> that is a very sad question
23:03:19 <Bike> i order you to cease considering it
23:03:32 <Bike> look at bitap instead
23:09:14 <Fiora> ohhhhhhhh. the state machine thing makes so much more sense
23:09:32 <Fiora> so basically you check all letters of the input for "A" in the case of "ABAD"
23:09:45 <Fiora> then you AND with "is each letter B", shifted by 1
23:09:52 <Fiora> then you and with "is each letter A", shifted by 1
23:12:01 <Bike> god i'm stuck on these comments though
23:12:08 <Bike> "So the US military develops a set of weapons which are almost useless against both it's official enemies ( a bunch of terrorists living in medieval conditions in Afghanistan) and it's unofficial enemies (China) - but which it is itself uniquely vulnerable to. Isn't this a little like Superman developing a kryptonite bomb?"
23:12:58 <Bike> Actually I find OBSD to be far less complex and easier to master than windows or apple products.
23:13:12 <kmc> obviously a typical mind
23:14:00 <Bike> pkhuong's code just defines the intrinsics right there. man
23:14:17 <Fiora> I didn't read the whole graph manipulation section, that seems a little scary
23:14:34 <Bike> told you it was so cool.
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23:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> wh... how are the chinese not vulnerable to cyberwarfare
23:27:46 <Bike> i have no idea. the article that's a comment on is about US cyberwarfare against china.
23:27:51 <Bike> it's possible, just slightly, that the comment is dumb
23:28:10 <kmc> probably the commenter thinks that china is so much better at cyberwarfare than the US
23:28:13 <kmc> which is maybe true
23:28:31 <kmc> but infosec is so absurdly biased towards attackers right now that third-rate attacks can go through first-rate defense
23:28:58 * Bike imagines cyberwarfare WWI, shudders
23:29:14 * kmc emails Bike a ZIP file of chlorine gas
23:30:27 <Koen_> your antivirus won't help you
23:30:51 <Bike> this summer....
23:34:50 <Bike> http://blog.talkingphilosophy.com/?p=6344 old timey flamewars are so great
23:37:28 <oerjan> @tell Taneb functor is a superclass of applicative already so you don't need to check functor hth
23:39:00 <oerjan> @tell taneb might want to check for alternative vs. monadplus, though.
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23:57:24 <HackEgo> katla: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:01:42 <Bike> why are you depressed?
00:07:14 <kmc> where do you live?
00:07:28 <kmc> what kinds of things are you interested in
00:07:38 <coppro> katla: clinically, or just sad?
00:08:07 <katla> dont know about interests
00:08:18 <katla> i know that i need to pick up some
00:08:49 <coppro> can you think of anything you enjoy doing?
00:10:28 <kmc> you were talking about haskell and theory of computation before, right?
00:11:16 <kmc> there are a few Haskell meetup groups in the UK
00:11:28 <katla> yeah i used to be into programing languages but not really a nymore
00:11:38 <Bike> something something anhedonia
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00:22:02 <zzo38> Can you play mahjong?
00:23:51 <zzo38> Can you play chess?
00:24:48 <pikhq_> Clinical depression is t3h suck.
00:26:19 <mnoqy> oh no now you said it too...
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00:50:43 <katla> damn i thought you guys would cure me
00:53:34 <Bike> fresh out of panacea, srry
00:54:06 <Fiora> sorry! I guess I was kind of in that trap a year or two ago (though I still kind of am) of "oh gosh I need to find non-programming hobbies and friends and communities and things"
00:54:13 <Fiora> but I'm not sure I have a magic answer
00:55:38 <katla> Fiora how did it go?
00:56:04 <katla> did you makeprogress
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00:58:41 * Fiora tries to put it into words... I kind of went and dived into non-sciencey things (since I was already a hopeless wikipedia-absorbing science doof), especially things I could socialize with others about (even like, online)
00:59:14 <Fiora> like for me I went and read homestuck and got involved with that, I played more games of the sort with fandoms I could bond with others about (Persona, Tales, etc)
00:59:56 <Fiora> and generally like trying to aim my attention at everything other than programming to counter way too many years of academia
01:00:52 <Fiora> and take the chance (10 years late) to be a bit more, well, girly about things, I guess
01:01:07 <shachaf> hmm maybe i should try that
01:01:09 <kmc> i don't really have a desire for non-programming hobbies, so much as more non-programmer friends
01:01:18 <kmc> clearly these are related though
01:01:39 <kmc> my girlfriend knows a lot about plants & birds & mushrooms and that sort of thing, and I've really enjoyed learning about that
01:01:43 <kmc> and having more excuses to go outside
01:01:55 <shachaf> kmc: Does she know what birds are?
01:02:03 <kmc> I had a very narrow focus growing up and now it's neat to learn some of the things I'd been ignoring
01:02:08 <kmc> shachaf: probably
01:02:52 <shachaf> speaking of whoa, "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; America Online Browser 1.1; rev1.2; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"
01:03:04 <shachaf> I think that's a referer spam bot, though.
01:03:06 <Bike> user-agent strings own.
01:03:11 <kmc> america on line
01:03:21 <Bike> also, i'm clinically depressed and doing uhhhhh better. school and stuff.
01:03:56 <Fiora> kmc: that's really how I felt to, I was like, gosh all this stuff outside programming is /so fun and interesting/.
01:04:16 <kmc> also learned a little bit about cooking, baking, etc
01:04:22 <kmc> going to try homebrewing beer I think
01:04:27 <Fiora> and I mean it wasn't totally new t me, like, I mean, I was bombarded with astronomy/physics stuff before I learned programming even but
01:05:11 <Fiora> but that's not quite as far away from programming as fandoms or writing or cooking or...
01:06:28 <zzo38> Good if you know some things about astronomy and physics. I am also interested in physics. But I am also interested in mathematics.
01:06:53 <shachaf> We should all aspire to be more like zzo38.
01:06:59 <shachaf> (Just a bit more, though.)
01:07:55 * shachaf goes to play Potion of Confusing again.
01:08:19 <katla> zzo38 what mathematics are you interested in
01:08:21 <zzo38> This time maybe you know how to do it better?
01:08:30 <shachaf> Notice also that Jesus saves.
01:08:39 <shachaf> Does Jesus save all those who do not save themselves?
01:09:02 <Fiora> I guess it makes me kind of weird though because I'm now like, a programmer who sometimes would rather write fanfic than code...
01:09:13 <zzo38> katla: All mathematics in general, really. However, I have studied various mathematical things in Wikipedia such as category theory and logic and surreal numbers too.
01:09:26 <shachaf> Fiora: Why write fanfic and not just fic?
01:09:38 <Fiora> because I'm even worse at fic <.<
01:09:42 <zzo38> Fiora: Well, I suppose some people don't always want to write the same thing. (That includes myself.)
01:09:56 <shachaf> Fiora: imo you should write fic
01:10:23 <shachaf> maybe you can get your own fans
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01:10:42 <kmc> Fiora: well I don't think it *should* be weird for programmers to sometimes want to do things other than programming
01:11:16 <kmc> the archetypal obsessive programmer is not really a happy or healthy character
01:11:32 <zzo38> kmc: I agree. Sometimes I play Dungeons&Dragons game. Sometimes you write on the IRC. See?
01:11:40 <kmc> i don't spend that much time programming really
01:11:59 <kmc> but it might be how i spend most of my 'structured' time
01:12:00 <katla> Fiora but you didnt meet any new friends
01:12:04 <shachaf> kmc: real programmers write n their weblogs all day about what real programmers do
01:12:24 <zzo38> Actually I have a C program open right now which I am also working on.
01:12:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Is it a Famicomulator?
01:12:55 <shachaf> Maybe zzo38 should move to SF and work on Rust!
01:12:55 <Fiora> katla: I met a lot of new people online I guess? I mean like almost everyone I know now, I know through non-programmer-related connections, I think
01:13:02 <shachaf> Just imagine rust.zzo38.moed.
01:13:26 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it isn't, this one is a Z-machine interpreter with SDL. However, maybe I will try to make Famicom emulator too afterward at some time.
01:13:48 <kmc> it suits business interests for young people to think that a singleminded obsessive is what they're supposed to be :/
01:15:13 <zzo38> Well, being obsessive of it can help too.
01:16:17 <shachaf> imo you should be fix (obsessed with being)
01:17:19 <zzo38> shachaf: I think that might be difficult. But, you have to be (among other things too), to be genius.
01:19:03 <shachaf> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kWGMkslnkdg/TzCiO7moT5I/AAAAAAAAKlE/OreQvmM8SxA/s1600/calvin_hobbes_dont_knock_smock_2.gif
01:19:53 <shachaf> Fiora: you should become a fan of calvin and hobbes
01:20:03 <shachaf> and then write calvin and hobbes fan fiction (or not)
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01:20:42 <tswett> Hmm. Computability topology. A hypothetical topology on N, such that the set of all continuous functions N -> {0, 1} is equal to the set of all computable functions N -> {0, 1}, given the discrete topology on {0, 1}.
01:21:39 <tswett> Is the intersection of two computable sets a computable set? Yes. Is the union of arbitrarily many computable sets a computable set? No.
01:22:31 <shachaf> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1989/07/15
01:22:38 <Bike> Wait, why not?
01:22:39 <shachaf> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1990/07/26
01:22:53 <Bike> or wait you mean recursive and not recursively enumerable alt. i don't remember how anything works.
01:22:55 <tswett> So that doesn't work. If we use the Sierpi(n with an acute accent)ski topology, nothing changes.
01:23:07 <tswett> Yeah, I do mean recursive, not recursively enumerable.
01:23:25 <tswett> If we're talking recursively enumerable... then yes, if we say that the open sets are precisely the recursively enumerable sets, we have a topology.
01:23:34 <tswett> Wait, do we... yes, we do.
01:23:45 <Bike> How is the union of recursive sets not recursive?
01:24:34 <tswett> Any set {a, b, c, ...} can be written as the union of the sets {a}, {b}, {c}, ..., each of which is recursively enumerable.
01:24:41 <tswett> Recursive, for that matter.
01:26:03 <tswett> This seems like the sort of thing that ought to make a topology somehow.
01:26:15 <tswett> Can we say the open sets are those sets which are *not* recursively enumerable?
01:26:45 <tswett> Uh... clearly not, since the empty set and N are both recursively enumerable (recursive, for that matter).
01:32:46 <copumpkin> katla: sorry! don't feel compelled to stay, but I remember you used to be around quite a bit and everyone was wondering where you'd gone!
01:33:42 <zzo38> You are also not compelled to type something all the time even if you do stay.
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01:34:11 <zzo38> However, even if you don't, you can still read the message on the logs, so that's OK anyways.
01:35:05 <elliott> #epigram must have so many cobwebs
01:35:32 <shachaf> didn't pigworker say that epigram is dead
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02:32:24 <shachaf> Should I read that HoTT book everyone's talking about?
02:35:08 <kmc> they've been in and out
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03:00:52 <kmc> night elliott
03:01:31 <ion> good nelliott
03:01:42 <shachaf> elliott's secret identity?!
03:02:12 <ion> elliott's secret Identity?!
03:02:57 <ion> elliott's secret runIdentity?!
03:14:05 <shachaf> kmc: it's monad joke o'clock in #haskell are you sure you don't want to join
03:14:35 <ion> I suppose, shachaf. I sachaf.
03:15:20 <Bike> y'all are really bad at convincing people to join #haskell
03:15:57 <shachaf> Bike: well it's an insider's club
03:16:09 <shachaf> we never wanted y'all to join anyway
03:16:37 <ion> You wouldn’t be able to afford the monthly fee anyway.
03:17:37 <shachaf> Bike: you should come to #haskell btw
03:18:20 <shachaf> i just made the monad jokes stop with my iron fist
03:18:26 <lambdabot> Is that a hornpipe in yer pocket, or arr ya just happy ta see me?
03:18:42 <ion> bike: You already have missed many monad jokes, you should join soon.
03:19:11 <Gracenotes> Is that a monad in yer monad, or arr ya just ap-y ta see me?
03:21:17 <ion> GHC should also just pick the closest match silently instead of erroring out and telling you about them.
03:21:27 <ion> A.k.a. DWIM
03:22:15 <kmc> DWIM is great because it's really do what you think i think you will think i think you will mean
03:22:23 <kmc> much better than just saying what you want
03:24:08 <ion> Also, in case of a type error, GHC should substitute values (including functions) with others in scope that make the type error go away.
03:24:54 <Bike> why limit it to scope!?
03:25:19 <ion> True, it might as well import modules when it seems to help. And install packages, too.
03:25:36 <Bike> it's just more convenient
03:26:19 <shachaf> ion: Simpler to use unsafeCoerce.
03:26:24 <kmc> never ever give the programmer an error message
03:26:26 <kmc> they hate those
03:27:43 <kmc> if you must give an error message it should be inserted at an arbitrary location in the HTML you're serving to users
03:28:01 <ion> Upon finding the substitutions that fix the program, GHC should also modify the source file automatically.
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04:48:32 <kmc> i wonder if hagfish can be caught in finland
04:48:43 <kmc> they exist in sweden apparently
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06:22:47 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://www.concatenation.org/futures/whatsexpected.pdf by chiang
06:24:41 <kmc> not yet but I just realized he wrote http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v405/n6786/full/405517a0.html too
06:24:44 <kmc> which is good and i did read it
06:26:17 <shachaf> Oh, I think that was in the book.
06:27:33 <Bike> is this transhumanist
06:27:33 * kmc has read it now
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09:20:17 <zzo38> Last week I found a book in the library titled "Can smart people believe in God?" I agree with much of what they wrote but I think they have too much Christian bias in some of their arguments.
09:20:56 <zzo38> (The author is Christian, and I don't blame that, but I think the argument is too much Christian bias anyways.)
09:21:56 <zzo38> They compared being scientific but not spiritual, or being spiritual but not scientific, as being like watching the universe with only one eye open.
09:22:22 <zzo38> I suppose I can see the analogy there.
09:22:33 <zzo38> I do disagree with some things he writes, though.
09:26:21 <zzo38> They say even atheists believe in things, depending on the atheists, such as Randomness, etc. Randomness? Isn't that like believing in your left hand but not the rest of your body and your surroundings? It is an analogy I made up, because, it is only a part of it!
09:28:14 <zzo38> What do *you* think of this?????
09:30:02 <zzo38> shachaf: Entirely with what I wrote, or..... something else?
09:32:06 <zzo38> Do you have any other comments about this?
09:33:25 <zzo38> O, OK. But, I don't think you should agree/disagree without questioning it at first. If you do that at first, then OK.
09:33:59 <shachaf> I considered questioning it, but you had used so many question marks that I wasn't sure whether I'd have any left.
09:34:39 <zzo38> Yes you can have whatever you want left.
09:35:35 <shachaf> Do I have any rights left?
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10:31:17 <shachaf> kmc: i read the rust tutorial. it looks p. good
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11:12:17 <Taneb> Because I just finished exams
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12:38:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> kmc: Does she know what birds are? <-- birds are dinosaurs hth
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12:42:10 <oerjan> 01:09:56: <shachaf> Fiora: imo you should write fic
12:42:10 <oerjan> 01:10:23: <shachaf> maybe you can get your own fans
12:42:22 <oerjan> are there any fanfics that have their own fanfics
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14:02:38 <oerjan> let's see if his connection has fixed itself.
14:03:12 <elliott> oerjan: that wasn't a connection issue really, they /parted not /quit
14:03:17 <elliott> well maybe they have a really weird bouncer or something
14:03:27 <elliott> probably they've gotten bored now though
14:10:48 <oerjan> i wish freenode didn't keep resetting the ban dates
14:12:59 <oerjan> it's sort of nice to be able to see which bans are old...
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14:24:50 <kmc> i am up early to receive a shipment
14:27:09 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Mon Jun 24 10:27:08 2013
14:27:26 <elliott> though later than what I expect when most people say "early"
14:27:42 <elliott> since apparently people are superhumans who think getting up at 9 am is reasonable or whatever
14:29:23 <kmc> yeah what's with that
14:30:01 <kmc> people are superhumans who think being /at work/ at 9 am is reasonable
14:30:39 <kmc> when i was in high school i had to be at school by 8 or whatever but I could also exist on zero sleep back then
14:30:52 <kmc> if you too have this power elliott: enjoy it while it lasts
14:31:16 <elliott> kmc: uh it depends what you mean by "exist"
14:31:37 <elliott> like I frequently have not slept in 24 hours but I wouldn't say I function particularly well under those circumstances
14:32:33 <elliott> does mozilla involve being at work at 9 am "the worst possible thing"
14:32:39 <kmc> i don't think it does
14:33:05 <kmc> i don't mean absolute number of hours without any sleep at all
14:33:16 <kmc> more like can you function on 4 hours of sleep a night indefinitely
14:34:49 <elliott> how can you take on a job without first figuring out whether you need to be up at an ungodly hour. adults
14:34:56 <elliott> anyway uh I haven't really tried
14:35:10 <elliott> I guess I can theoretically do it but would want to die pretty quickly
14:35:46 <mnoqy> being woken up by an alarm is the worst experience
14:36:02 <mnoqy> Would Not Recommend
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15:11:07 <olsner> it's usually expected that your working hours have at least some overlap with other people's working hours
15:11:21 <olsner> e.g. so you can talk at each other and pretend to collaborate
15:23:51 <oerjan> i recall my dad's workplace had something like "core hours" when you had to be there, but then a part outside that which you could choose more freely.
15:24:28 <kmc> yeah, that's common
15:24:54 <kmc> Mozilla has lots of people working remotely and from different time zones
15:25:20 <kmc> their attitude about offices is like... if there's an office near you and you want space there, you can have it
15:25:26 <kmc> but they do have really nice offices
15:25:43 <elliott> kmc: it takes a special kind of person to work from a different time zone without actually being in a different place
15:26:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel for "special" people | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:28:34 <oklopol> Bike: so i thought about the ai thing, and i seem to recall that once upon a time i used to call the stupid kind of ai stuff combinatorial optimization. perhaps seeing the arxiv feed every day has not been good for my brain.
15:30:09 <oklopol> btw google scholar updates are pretty magical, like 30% of its suggestions are interesting
15:30:16 <kmc> katla: i'm up early (by my standards), waiting for someone to deliver a huge box
15:30:22 <kmc> i will then load my possessions into that box
15:30:27 <kmc> and they will ship it to california
15:30:40 <oklopol> i mean interesting enough that i feel like i should read them
15:32:18 <kmc> packing and moving is a pain
15:32:25 <kmc> but it's not too bad this time
15:32:26 <oklopol> oh that's what you're doing
15:32:50 <oklopol> last time i moved it was like 50 meters, and it still took almost a day
15:33:10 <kmc> in college we used shopping carts for that purpose
15:33:30 <kmc> stolen from the local grocery
15:33:37 <kmc> if you're really lazy you just park your shopping cart full of clothes and stuff in your new room and don't bother unpacking it
15:33:44 <oklopol> i didn't even have to go outside to move stuff from the old apartment to this one
15:33:51 <kmc> it just becomes a piece of furniture like a dresser
15:34:12 <kmc> in the weeks leading up to moving day, people would hoard shopping carts and stash them in secret locations
15:34:42 <oklopol> i've always wanted a shopping cart but stores refuse to sell theirs and stealing is wrong or something
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15:35:11 <kmc> I only stole carts from the people who'd already stolen them
15:35:14 <kmc> that makes me a good guy right
15:35:24 <oklopol> unless they stole it from someone who stole it from a store
15:35:31 <oklopol> in which case you are an asshole
15:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm going to have to move all my shit back from warwick in a couple of days
15:37:47 <oklopol> so today, me and my coauthor started our first article on cellular automata where our supervisor is also coauthoring
15:38:15 <oklopol> (i have something about picture languages with him, but we never did anything together before for some reason)
15:38:58 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: are you quitting university
15:39:20 <oklopol> oh err what does that mean
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15:39:42 <oerjan> heh they're still going strong http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Bounded_gaps_between_primes
15:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, halls of residence are the on-campus accomodation you stay in for the first year
15:40:46 -!- nortiecat has changed nick to nortti.
15:41:40 <elliott> oerjan: eventually it will turn out that the lowest you can go is 3, hth
15:42:18 <oerjan> (that's actually impossible)
15:42:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i thought of the quip before i realised the problem. then i realised the problem quickly. then i decided it made the joke better
15:43:58 <oklopol> pardon my stupidity, but why is that not possible?
15:44:28 <oerjan> oklopol: because there are only two primes that are 3 apart hth
15:45:09 <oerjan> happens to the best of us
15:45:11 <elliott> maybe the twin prime conjecture is independent and the lowest you can go in ZFC is 8294
15:45:33 <katla> it's incredible they have a finite bound
15:45:56 <katla> how would you even prove that
15:46:21 <oerjan> well the project started after someone found out how
15:53:39 <Gracenotes> the most recently published gap proof seems fun, it required a sufficiently large N, got an upper bound on that N, and manually checked every thing below it
15:54:20 * oerjan looks at edinburgh in google maps, it seem to have a huge number of golf courses
15:55:31 <Gracenotes> I just assumed there was a proof or two discovered; there's actually over a dozen improvements a day on some days
15:55:43 <kmc> i keep thinking my solution to moving should be to not have stuff
15:55:50 <kmc> but no matter how much stuff i get rid of I still have quite a lot
15:56:01 <kmc> though I think still a lot less than people my age are expected to
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15:56:19 <Gracenotes> kmc: you have more stuff than you think, especially when you put it in boxes
15:56:30 <elliott> Gracenotes: i think to improve on it now all they need to do is find a fairly small set of numbers which satisfies some decidable property or something?
15:56:39 <elliott> or at least i remember reading something like that
15:56:44 <elliott> so it's not surprising there's rapid iteration if so
15:57:12 <katla> do you understand the proof
15:57:15 <katla> of the original bound
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15:57:46 * Gracenotes does not understand the math, or the theorem that makes the bound possible
15:58:23 <oerjan> beyond what elliott said
15:58:43 <oklopol> number theory is too hard for me
15:59:35 <Gracenotes> I mean, we're computer scientists, the most we do with theoretically with numbers is represent them using unary
15:59:56 <Gracenotes> (for those of us that are computer scientists)
16:01:54 <oklopol> dunno, nowadays i think of myself more as a mathematician wannabe, my papers have no integrals
16:03:23 <oklopol> so btw cool perhaps-result from today: a size 2 neighborhood surjective CA on a prime alphabet is permutive in one of the coordinates
16:03:57 <kmc> what's a prime alphabet?
16:04:01 <oklopol> (it's cool because no good characterization of surjectivity is known)
16:05:13 <oklopol> CA = cellular automata if that's what you mean
16:05:48 <oklopol> its neighborhood has size 2
16:06:00 <oklopol> the next state is based on looking at some 2 cells, relative to the current cell
16:07:03 <elliott> oerjan: speaking of mathematicians, do you know much about permutations...
16:07:31 <oklopol> all cellular automata arise in this way, for some value of being the same as
16:07:34 <oerjan> elliott: well a bit...
16:10:38 <elliott> oerjan: well the cardinality of the set of permutations of A is |A|^|A| = 2^|A| when A is infinite and so I'm wondering about the details of the bijection between bijections between A and A and functions from A to A this should give you...
16:11:45 <oklopol> oh i thought this would be about the symmetric groups
16:12:36 <katla> dont you have to use axiom of choice to go from |X| = |Y| to a bijection X -> Y?
16:12:41 <elliott> oklopol: you can pretend I said the cardinality of the symmetric group of A if that would help
16:12:55 <oerjan> katla: no, that's the definition of |X| = |Y§
16:13:01 <oklopol> surely it's easy to inject either in the other, and then just construct the solution with the axiom of constructable choice.
16:13:09 <katla> no, it doesn't use choice it uses excluded middle
16:13:21 <elliott> I'm also wondering if the bijection is a natural isomorphism or whatever or if it depends on the details of A...
16:13:40 <oerjan> although _defining_ |X| may be awkward without choice
16:14:03 <katla> point is you dont have an explicit bijection you just know one exists
16:14:36 <oerjan> anyway, if you have injections, then i believe the proof of the schröder-bernstein theorem is quite constructive.
16:14:54 <katla> there is some way to label permutations of A by subsets of A but it's probably completely arbitrary
16:14:55 <oklopol> yeah, but then my awesome joke doesn't work
16:15:01 <elliott> katla: yeah... I'm interested in seeing what such a bijection looks like "in practice"
16:15:05 <elliott> like if A is just the naturals or whatever
16:15:26 <katla> i imagine it as acompletely random (since we dont know anythinnf about it)
16:15:27 <oklopol> katla: that may be, but i wouldn't say it's a priori clear
16:16:02 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect the bijection is hideously unnatural
16:16:13 <elliott> yeah I realise it might not even be a computable bijection...
16:16:25 <oerjan> oh i expect it's computable
16:16:53 <elliott> oerjan: maybe the other form, a bijection between bijections between A and A and functions from A to 2, is cleaner?? I don't really know what I'm doing...
16:17:05 <katla> i dont think its computable, how could it be?
16:17:15 <katla> you would need a constructive proof of its existence
16:17:26 <oerjan> hm well maybe it depends
16:18:04 <oerjan> oh maybe you need choice to prove the cardinalities are the same.
16:18:06 <elliott> katla: well maybe for a specific A?
16:18:26 <elliott> like even just seeing an (N <-> N) <-> (N -> N) would be interesting to me
16:18:30 <katla> it doesn't matter what A is as long as |A| = |N|
16:19:08 <oerjan> elliott: N -> N should be easy. an injection from N <-> N to N -> N is trivial, of course.
16:19:14 <oklopol> computable in what sense? like, for numerable A, you can compute the image of a \in A from knowing a long enough prefix of the characteristic sequence of the subset or something?
16:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: just the identity you mean?
16:20:04 <oerjan> an injection the other way shouldn't be too hard.
16:20:26 <oerjan> and when you have those, the schröder-bernstein construction is constructive, as i said.
16:20:32 <elliott> oklopol: well I mean in the sense of you can construct a Coq expression of type (bijection (bijection nat nat) (nat -> nat))
16:20:34 <oklopol> from N -> N to N <-> N is very easy too, just permute adjacent pairs and encode the images of every number
16:20:58 <oklopol> like permu, permu, permu, no permu in the beginning would code that 1 goes to 3
16:21:08 <oerjan> or well, maybe not constructive, but explicitly definable
16:21:37 <elliott> hmm, is the reduced form actually (N -> 2) when you're doing it constructively or is it (N -> Prop)...? I know "powersets" are usually defined as the latter
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16:24:02 <oerjan> of course i don't really have a clue about real constructiveness hth
16:24:22 <elliott> I need a faker mathematician :(
16:24:38 <elliott> maybe oklopol, I bet people call him a computer scientist all the time
16:25:27 <oerjan> i suspect schröder-bernstein might use the excluded middle at least
16:25:38 <Taneb> I pretend to be a mathematician sometimes
16:25:42 <Taneb> Can I be of service?
16:25:45 <mnoqy> elliott: my feeling is it's (N->Prop) ... (N->2) is "decidable subsets" or something like that
16:26:26 <elliott> mnoqy: right but (N -> Prop) -> (N <-> N) sounds really unlikely to be non-trivial without excluded middle... (N -> 2) -> (N <-> N) much less so
16:26:32 <oklopol> the other day this dude who does all the practical computer stuff was like "so oklopol i bet you run virtual oses all the time" and i was like omg that sounds scary and just kinda disappeared
16:26:44 <elliott> so my hunch tells me that either the reduction to 2^|A| doesn't work constructively or it's actually 2
16:27:10 <elliott> oerjan: yeah An important feature of this theorem is that it does not rely on the axiom of choice. However, its various proofs are non-constructive, as they depend on the law of excluded middle, and therefore rejected by intuitionists.[1]
16:30:57 <oerjan> elliott: yeah for the proof given, presumably you need LEM to determine whether it's A/B-stopper or doubly infinite
16:31:02 <oklopol> the same guy (at work btw, seems i forgot that detail) always catcher me in the hallway and starts talking about his latest problems with installing stuff and i don't understand anything and just nod politely
16:31:48 <oklopol> is this the fun vertex matching proof
16:32:18 <oerjan> well there's a graph there, so probably
16:32:37 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schröder-Bernstein_theorem#Visualization
16:32:41 <elliott> hm maybe you can do (N -> 2) <-> (N <-> N) by taking the 2 to mean "displaced" or something...
16:32:48 <oklopol> that seems to be the only one that's possible to remember
16:32:51 * elliott starting the day with quackery
16:36:48 <oklopol> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myhill_isomorphism_theorem
16:37:01 <oklopol> was this mentioned already
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16:39:45 <elliott> how did oklopol know oerjan was going to leave
16:40:26 <Bike> reading... or conspiracy
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16:50:31 <kmc> how do you do it in irsi
16:50:40 <kmc> irssissippi
16:51:36 <nooodl> im thankfully not seeing it
16:52:04 <FreeFull> Probably using the wrong terminal or something
16:52:05 <Gregor> Is this suppose to show up as something other than a unsupported-Unicode-character box?
16:54:46 <elliott> Gregor: it blinks in irssi
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17:00:58 <kmc> well this is annoying
17:01:03 <kmc> i've successfully annoyed myself
17:01:06 <kmc> thanks a lot Bike
17:04:56 <kmc> my moving pod is here
17:05:17 <kmc> could probably rent it for $800/mo in sf
17:05:29 <kmc> elliott: i have a friend who would do that
17:05:38 <elliott> bet people do it all the time
17:05:40 <kmc> he would hide in your clothes hamper for 3 hours just so he could jump out and scare the shit out of you
17:06:14 <kmc> it's sort of like being a sniper
17:06:26 <elliott> I think every time someone scares me like that I lose a few years of life
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17:14:30 <Gregor> Every time someone scares me like that, the flashbacks kick in and I kill them.
17:14:44 <Gregor> So, THEY use a few years of THEIR life.
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17:18:08 <Taneb> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/breaking-news-dead-man-found-in-hexham-burn-1.1065270?referrerPath=home
17:19:05 <Taneb> Things happen in Hexham, apparently
17:22:33 <Bike> is this like some crazy british spelling of "current"
17:24:35 <Taneb> mnoqy, burn also can mean stream sometimes
17:27:47 <Gregor> Yeah, it took me a while to realize that "burn" was not the verb.
17:28:04 <Gregor> I was thinking, "they found a burnt husk of a corpse?"
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17:57:48 <kmc> hexham voultage
18:01:41 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Northumbrian dialect bears much similarity to Scots in places
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18:37:27 <Taneb> Oh no I am still reliant on a website that will be discontinued in less than a week
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18:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, google reader (i thought that was already down)
18:49:53 <Taneb> It goes down on the 1st of July
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19:13:19 <elliott> so apparently Scala doesn't have parametricity. I blame copumpkin for making me discover this.
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19:14:54 <kmc> is that because the supertype shared by all objects contains enough rope to break it?
19:15:20 <elliott> it seems to just literally give you typecase
19:15:21 <elliott> def const3[A](a: A, a2: A): A = (a, a2) match {
19:15:21 <elliott> case (s: Int, s2: Int) => if (s < s2) a else a2
19:15:25 <elliott> http://failex.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/fake-theorems-for-free.html
19:15:55 <elliott> I guess they figure, Java lets you do it, so there's no point hiding it because Java APIs will already break parametricity
19:16:09 <Taneb> Could subtyping work in a Haskell-like language?
19:16:38 <elliott> yes but it's ugly (Scala has subtyping)
19:17:14 <Taneb> Like, data Foo = Foo {a :: Int, b :: Char}; data Bar extends Foo with {c :: Bool}
19:18:28 <shachaf> elliott is prejudiced against subtyping
19:19:09 <Taneb> You would be able to use Bar with functions that are (Foo -> a) but not (a -> Foo)
19:21:02 <Taneb> In away, all types are subtypes of ()
19:21:17 <Taneb> I am going to call that the "trivial supertype"
19:22:22 <Taneb> Bike, I think Void is sort of a subtype of every type
19:22:34 <Taneb> I shall call that the "trivial subtype"
19:22:46 <zzo38> The type () is what is called a final object; does that have anything to do with it?
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19:22:47 <Bike> wow this is so exciting huh elliott
19:23:00 <Taneb> zzo38, I think so!
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19:24:47 <Taneb> This subtyping thing becomes ugly when combined with polymorphic types
19:26:53 <zzo38> Do you need two extending, one for addition and one for multiplication?
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19:27:36 <Taneb> zzo38, I haven't thought about addition
19:28:02 <shachaf> Taneb: have you considered lens-subtyping vs. prism-subtyping hth
19:28:31 <zzo38> With multiplication you get Bar->Foo and if you define Bar with addition then you will have Foo->Bar instead, I think, isn't it?
19:28:42 <Taneb> zzo38, I think with sum types the subtyping would sort of be the other way rou --- yeah
19:30:01 <shachaf> No, the subtyping is still in the same direction.
19:30:10 <shachaf> It's just that the function that you have is different.
19:30:17 <shachaf> Or maybe you mean the same thing I mean.
19:30:19 <zzo38> shachaf: That is what I meant.
19:30:41 <zzo38> I meant Bar->Foo and Foo->Bar are the types of the functions that it would make.
19:30:42 <Taneb> shachaf, with product types the larger definition is the subtype, with sum types the smaller one is
19:31:36 <Taneb> This gets messy when you have more complicated types
19:31:41 <Taneb> I shall now stop thinking about it
19:31:43 <shachaf> It's not about cardinality, exactly.
19:32:41 <Bike> taneb is my hero
19:33:37 <mnoqy> whats this about subtyping
19:33:55 <zzo38> I did write a Haskell program that will allow various modules that know a module defining a record type to each add fields without knowing each other, and the first module doesn't have to know about them either.
19:34:57 <zzo38> However, you need to define a way to make default values of each fields, so that a value of such a type can be constructed. It is possible for the default value to depend on something, and whatever defines the record type also defines what type is needed to make up the default values.
19:36:27 <zzo38> It could be used as another way to make global variables, instead of using unsafePerformIO and NOINLINE.
19:36:28 <elliott> zzo38: hey you know that haskell program that gave different output depending on which language extensions were enabled?
19:37:07 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I do have that.
19:37:19 <elliott> is it available over HTTP?
19:37:36 <zzo38> Yes. http://sprunge.us/edTV
19:37:59 <elliott> thanks! may I share it with someone I know? do you want attribution?
19:38:36 <zzo38> You can share it if you want, modify it if you want, give attribution if you want (it isn't required), etc
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19:59:06 <kmc> it's too god damn motherfucking hot
20:08:24 <kmc> it's going to hit 97°F / 36°C today
20:10:32 <Taneb> shachaf, remind me
20:10:43 <Taneb> How many people in this channel other than you live in San Francisco
20:10:52 <shachaf> I don't live in San Francisco.
20:11:03 <Taneb> That is not what I asked
20:11:21 <Taneb> It's what I /implied/, yes, but not what I asked
20:11:29 <shachaf> Taneb: You should change your person-addressing character to use a colon instead of a comma.
20:11:43 <Taneb> shachaf, I did for a while, but it felt wrong
20:12:12 <shachaf> It feels like part of a sentence instead of part of a protocol.
20:13:27 <kmc> why should it be a protocol
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20:14:09 <shachaf> Certainly I don't want people saying my name in every sentence.
20:14:20 <Taneb> No, when I say, eg, "shachaf, hi!", in my head I am saying your name
20:14:43 <oerjan> but are you pronouncing the ch correctly
20:15:09 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what would the vocative be?
20:15:30 <Taneb> fuck, how are you?
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20:37:23 <oerjan> 19:59:06: <kmc> it's too god damn motherfucking hot
20:37:23 <oerjan> 20:05:11: <shachaf> @google boston weather
20:37:36 <oerjan> yeah, that's how it was the one time i was in boston too
20:37:50 <kmc> what time of year
20:38:24 <oerjan> kmc: around 4th of july
20:38:34 <oerjan> (we watched the fireworks)
20:39:10 <Taneb> Last time I watched fireworks it was my birthday
20:39:47 <oerjan> `pastelogs taneb.*birthday
20:40:00 <Taneb> oerjan, 3rd of November
20:40:16 <oerjan> oh. why are there fireworks then
20:40:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19940
20:40:33 <Taneb> Closest Saturday to Guy Fawkes?
20:40:38 <kmc> 2 days early
20:41:55 <Taneb> electric flying bananas?
20:42:09 <oerjan> `learn myndzi keeps us all on our feet
20:44:36 <Bike> "edit: fuck, beaten"
20:45:47 <Fiora> is that a sommethingawful thing?
20:47:07 <kmc> it's an internet thing
20:47:18 <kmc> maybe originating from SA (like so many internet things)
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21:05:33 <elliott> if anyone is interested i am streaming the masterpiece of game design "dot action 2" http://www.twitch.tv/neostairs
21:05:52 <Bike> stairs 2: revenge of escalator
21:07:24 <Bike> wow what the heck is this
21:08:44 <Bike> elliott you have to jump all the way to the top come on man.
21:09:25 <Bike> what's with all the japanese
21:09:25 <katla> this looks so horribly unfun
21:09:25 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:09:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:09:52 <Bike> is it encoded in ascii somehow? i'm wondering if zzo made this
21:10:42 <Bike> what the hell do all these numbers mean................
21:10:54 <mnoqy> ZET lets you walk through lava
21:11:01 <elliott> katla: it's the greatest game ever made actually
21:11:34 <Bike> wow that was a "pretty intense jump" good job
21:11:52 <mnoqy> that jump? not so intense
21:12:11 <Bike> yeah you need to rev up the intensity there, imo.
21:13:36 <Bike> good death animation
21:14:01 <katla> whats great about it
21:14:47 <Bike> the circus music
21:14:56 <mnoqy> possibly it's a Dogma thing
21:15:00 <elliott> also in like 40 levels it stops bothering to make sense
21:15:15 <mnoqy> i forget how far i got in that game
21:15:29 <Bike> is this like. why are you doing this
21:16:07 <katla> you're just addicted to the beep sound
21:16:54 <mnoqy> oh i think i remember this level
21:17:07 <Bike> what time units are being used exactly
21:19:18 <katla> how can you bare playing this
21:19:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:19:57 <mnoqy> i think it's a ritualistic thing
21:20:09 <Bike> I was hoping it was actually an AI he wrote for the purpose
21:21:56 <katla> it seems like you could write an AI to play this game
21:22:01 <katla> but it would take a lot of effort
21:22:17 <mnoqy> better just to get some chump to play it for you
21:22:59 <katla> i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left
21:23:21 <Bike> wow i already hate this level.
21:23:23 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/register-number-one,32928/
21:23:36 <Bike> katla: "this is N for people who don't like fun"
21:25:10 <elliott> `addquote <katla> i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left
21:25:14 <HackEgo> 1061) <katla> i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left
21:25:47 <Bike> the fact that it goes black when you talk on irc is scary since it implies that you're actually playing
21:26:41 <mnoqy> elliott explained it elsewhere actually: this is just a youtube let's play and it goes black when he's switching to the next video
21:26:46 <mnoqy> nobody played this gaem
21:27:27 <Bike> so uh. why are you streaming a let's play
21:28:16 <elliott> mnoqy forgot to mention i was joking
21:28:31 <Bike> shut up don't ruin my dream.
21:28:48 <elliott> im going to do this next level without sound to show how hardcore i am.
21:29:46 <Bike> lava being the beige orange dots
21:29:54 <Bike> ok i hate this level.
21:29:57 <elliott> Bike: i'm glad you recognise they're lava
21:30:00 <elliott> some people think they're electricity
21:30:18 <Bike> confession: i only know because monqy said so
21:30:34 <katla> i knew it was lava without anyone telling me
21:30:40 <Bike> katla > bike, imo
21:30:53 <Bike> hey. hey there's sound!!
21:32:21 <mnoqy> im glad for this stage
21:32:25 <elliott> how have you been watching it without sound
21:32:45 <Bike> no i've been watching it w/ sound
21:32:45 <katla> the sound is the only good thing about it
21:32:49 <Bike> but you said you were turning it off!
21:32:55 <mnoqy> elliott: probably in reference to 14:28:49 <elliott> im going to do this next level without sound to show how hardcore i am.
21:33:10 <elliott> oh i just muted it on my computer
21:33:45 <Bike> i think this level is the worst.
21:34:19 <mnoqy> hey nooodl did you beat dot action 2
21:34:20 <Bike> Like at least seven worst
21:34:27 <katla> what i dont understand is why you'd even want to complete this level
21:34:36 <nooodl> no i got to stage 50ish and i'm on "post traumatic stress hiatus"
21:35:10 <Bike> katla: some people walk on coals. some people go to the dentist. some people play Dot Action Two
21:38:08 <elliott> i can't even fail at this level in a good way
21:38:09 <Bike> basically elliott is a flagellant.
21:39:57 <Bike> elliott: You have to jump between the tall things.
21:40:25 <Bike> Make sure you aim your jumps so that from each tall thing you land onto the next tall thing.
21:41:28 <Bike> Don't touch the lava things. Really you shouldn't be anywhere near the lava on your return trip, it's way below where you should be (which is: on top of the tall things, or between them, in the midst of jumping between the tall things)
21:43:26 <Bike> This level is at least nine bad.
21:45:12 <katla> the jumps are blind
21:45:36 <elliott> yeah it would be easy if you could see where you were jumping
21:45:54 <Bike> The give elliott helpful advice game
21:47:04 <Bike> you understand.
21:47:17 <Bike> elliott knows nothing.
21:47:23 <Bike> he's enlightened.
21:47:52 <Bike> @ask sgeo i have a BYOND-related question for you. i know. i'm sorry world
21:48:10 <Bike> he's using Haiku with reskinned windows
21:49:21 <katla> i dont want to watch any more of this horrid game
21:49:49 <Bike> elliott: i'm sorry.................................
21:50:06 <elliott> katla: neither does anybody else. we're trapped
21:50:06 <Bike> some thing sgeo likes
21:51:15 <katla> thislevel is the worst ye
21:51:52 <nooodl> technically the gravity direction never changes
21:52:07 <Fiora> Bike: isn't BYOND the thing used for space station 13?
21:52:16 <Bike> yeah that's why im asking
21:52:42 <Bike> since i'm thinking about playing it but if it's a web client that would be nice and convenient.
21:54:30 <Bike> this level's at least twelve worst for sure
21:54:32 <Bike> look at this shit
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21:55:23 <elliott> ok i'm ready to reveal the secret
21:55:26 <elliott> i already know how to do this level
21:55:34 <elliott> i just wanted to give you all the experience of doing it spoiler-free
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21:56:21 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: see, that's why it's 12.
21:56:28 <Bike> well, i'll bump it up to 13 for being misleading.
21:56:32 <Bike> take note elliott
21:59:07 <nooodl> this one's like 10 worst
22:01:46 <Bike> "wow i hate this game and i'm not even playing it"
22:01:58 <Bike> "this guy is more of a masochist than i am"
22:05:23 <elliott> what have i done to deserve this
22:05:43 <Bike> you made me read about functors being boxes that one time.
22:05:58 <kmc> functor? i hardly know 'er!
22:06:01 * kmc will see himself out.
22:07:28 <elliott> did you know that there's literally a time out on pausing
22:07:31 <elliott> it doesnt' let you pause too often
22:10:29 <kmc> http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130617-obama-putin-meeting.photoblog900.jpg
22:11:43 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: it does
22:12:23 -!- mnoqy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:15:33 <elliott> some of my viewers are mutinying
22:15:59 <zzo38> I have used templates having lines line {{Template:{{{1}}}|num=0|name=NROM|disc=Discrete|who=Nintendo|prgrom=32768}} in some MediaWiki but does Wikipedia or Esolang wiki uses it or anything else you have done anything like this?
22:16:16 <Bike> yeah there's nothing playing.
22:19:40 * Bike crosses arms, nods
22:21:00 <nooodl> elliott: i'm disappointed
22:22:32 <kmc> zzo38: what's interesting about templates like that
22:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> is that you found a banner with 'intemrisision' written on it
22:23:03 <elliott> i'm using $500 broadcasting software
22:23:06 <elliott> it lets me do great things like this
22:23:42 <zzo38> kmc: Look at http://ifwiki.org/index.php/List_of_Z-machine_interpreters to see how it can be used.
22:24:28 <kmc> looks pretty nice zzo38
22:25:28 <kmc> Wikipedia has a lot of those sorts of tables but I don't know what kind of templates they us
22:26:01 <kmc> how does Z-machine piracy check work
22:26:30 <zzo38> kmc: It is unspecified.
22:26:39 <kmc> zzo38: How can it be implemented, then?
22:26:57 <zzo38> My own interpreter just uses a command-line parameter to decide whether it is genuine or not.
22:27:02 <Bike> oh god it's back help
22:27:15 <zzo38> (Also, no existing Z-machine games even use that anyways.)
22:27:19 <kmc> zzo38: so this is like the Evil Bit in IP then
22:27:58 <elliott> this level is 5,000,000 bad
22:28:07 <zzo38> (Fweep does it by if you specified -p switch then it assumes it is pirated and if you don't specify -p then it assumes it is genuine.)
22:28:12 <Bike> i don't know the bad->worst unit conversion.
22:28:48 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose it might be something like that.
22:28:59 <elliott> wow this level is a lot easier than it was when nooodl did it
22:29:02 <Bike> i see your point.
22:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how with every retry you get ever further from success
22:30:52 <zzo38> The only Z-machine program I know that even uses the piracy check is CZECH, which is used to test if the Z-machine interpreter is working properly. Fweep passes 100%, unless -p is specified in which case it fails that test but still continues running; it just logs the failure and then reports at the end that one test failed.
22:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you're going to get past this level this side of heat death
22:35:40 <zzo38> It is recommended that an interpreter assume the game disc is genuine by default, and my interpreters do this too. No games use it; nevertheless, you could write a game that uses it in order to shorten the game if the game disc is pirated; you could use this to make a short demo version using the same story file, in case some players want to play the short version, or if you are providing it on a telnet server and want to sell the full version.
22:37:30 <elliott> i should move to sf in a cube like kmc instead of doing this
22:39:06 <Bike> it's like cube action 2 but 3d.
22:39:15 <elliott> cube action 2 is very like cube action 2, yes
22:39:15 <Bike> did you warp the intermissions picture
22:39:23 <kmc> when the guy dropped it off today he said "think tetris"
22:39:25 <kmc> true story
22:39:39 <nooodl> kmc: what's this story about
22:41:40 <kmc> it's about my cube
22:44:02 <nooodl> imo play more so it takes less time
22:44:32 <elliott> preparing myself, mentally and physically
22:44:59 <nooodl> i'm imagining a montage of elliott doing push ups
22:45:12 <elliott> just let out the most ungodly noise
22:45:35 <nooodl> transcribe it for us (ps we really need mic commentary)
22:45:35 <kmc> elliott pushup montage
22:46:37 <nooodl> i like how the first attempt went really well
22:46:43 <nooodl> i know exactly how elliott feels now......
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22:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i want to link to the turkish star wars training montage but i don't know how to make it relevnat
22:51:10 <kmc> turkish star wars is the best
22:51:22 <kmc> i don't even remember that montage and yet I know it's the best
22:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (it has push it to the limit in place of the original soundtrack and the quality isn't as shitty)
22:56:36 <elliott> nooodl: did you ever work out time <-> seconds
22:57:22 <nooodl> i estimate it's about 1/3 second = 1 time
22:59:20 <elliott> what was the trick for the last part again...
22:59:33 <nooodl> the trick is suffering hth
22:59:34 <elliott> well what are you supposed to even do, I've forgotten
23:00:05 <nooodl> jump from the very edge of the thing
23:02:29 <nooodl> btw i don't think it's even possible
23:02:32 <nooodl> if you pause this long
23:02:35 <nooodl> you have to be in the flow
23:02:51 <nooodl> now you're gonna unpause and it'll be like Whoa
23:02:56 <tswett> In BlogNomic, currently you can get points by coming up with a theorem that you can prove, but nobody else can prove.
23:03:17 <tswett> So I took two huge prime numbers, multiplied them together, posted the result, and asserted that that number is composite.
23:04:02 <Bike> you don't have to publicize your proof?
23:04:18 <tswett> You do, but once you do, nobody else can submit a proof.
23:04:40 <tswett> Also, you have to wait 48 hours before submitting a proof.
23:04:52 <Bike> something something zero-knowledge
23:05:04 <Fiora> Aren't there primality tests though?
23:05:09 <Fiora> someone could run a primality test on it and show that it's not prime
23:05:23 <tswett> Fiora: true, but nobody has done that.
23:05:28 <elliott> well, the idea is that modern encryption algorithms are based on multiplying huge primes isn't it?
23:05:50 <elliott> and factoring the result is difficult
23:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> you can tell a number isn't prime without actually finding its factors i guess
23:06:14 <tswett> Well, the idea is that the product of two really big prime numbers is hard to factor.
23:06:20 <elliott> also I think all the efficient primality tests are probabilistic?
23:06:21 -!- carado has quit (Read error: No route to host).
23:06:24 <tswett> The fact that this fact is used in encryption is just sort of a side effect.
23:06:35 <katla> hthere's a fast algorithm to check if a numberis prime
23:06:40 <katla> withouut factoring
23:06:57 <tswett> elliott: I think that all of the common primality tests can tell you with certainty that a number is composite.
23:07:07 -!- carado has joined.
23:07:14 <Bike> yeah AKS is assured
23:07:24 <Bike> it's factoring that's hard
23:07:41 <tswett> Like, if the number is prime, it's guaranteed to say "the number may be prime", but if it's composite, there's a 25% chance it says "the number may be prime" and a 75% chance it says "the number is definitely composite".
23:07:43 <Bike> PRIMES is in P maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan
23:14:37 <Fiora> http://www.javascripter.net/math/primes/millerrabinprimalitytest.htm says it's composite~~
23:15:47 <elliott> javascript seems like... not the ideal thing to do heavy arithmetic with
23:16:30 <Bike> they mean like tildes
23:17:02 <tswett> Someone told me what they mean once.
23:17:13 <tswett> I think they indicate some certain thing.
23:17:31 <tswett> Like, something related to something, or whatever. Like, when the one thing happens, then you use ~~ to indicate that.
23:17:57 <tswett> Except that, like, it's not really a thing that happens; it's really, like, the sort of thing that *could* happen, if the people were talking face to face.
23:18:19 <tswett> So, you know, like, when, uh... yeah, that.
23:19:41 <tswett> In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's extremely unlikely. Or maybe not, depending on how you define "high".
23:22:58 <nooodl> remember when i did exactly that and i had it 3-4 tries later though!
23:24:42 <Fiora> Oh wow, the miller rabin primalitytest takes a long time if it's a probable prime
23:25:11 <Fiora> 35844088534668175608533550469325416140711880836358433520741183341559409752958417564900205152763659819317338304041228758958269744936094178001500112469790418773135543301899194065881801585777676220908369 tswett: yours isn't prime but this one is, I think!
23:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover> what happens if you try and do cryptography with something that looks prime
23:25:54 <elliott> did tswett actually say the number?
23:26:02 <nooodl> where is tswett's number
23:26:03 <tswett> elliott: I guess I didn't.
23:26:09 <tswett> Here it is, with muchos espacios:
23:26:16 <tswett> 35 844 088 534 668 175 608 533 550 469 325 416 140 711 880 836 358 433 520 741 183 341 559 409 752 958 417 564 900 205 152 763 659 819 317 338 304 041 228 758 958 269 744 936 094 178 001 500 112 469 790 418 773 135 543 301 899 194 065 881 801 585 777 676 220 908 841
23:26:36 <Bike> " FFT-based multiplication can push the running time down to O(k log2n log log n log log log n)" logs are officically the worst
23:26:36 <tswett> I know what you're thinking. That's not a number, that's sixty-seven numbers!
23:27:01 <Bike> that's log² n, i gues
23:27:05 <nooodl> i really don't understand how algorithms end up being O(log log n)
23:27:08 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, you could just ask them to prove that the digit sum of the factors is <whatever>
23:27:33 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: or that it has a factor in a certain specific range.
23:27:48 <Bike> "The number of different values of a that we test"
23:27:53 <Bike> nooodl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_rabin#Algorithm_and_running_time behold.
23:28:06 <Sgeo> Bike, what's your BYOND-related question?
23:28:24 <tswett> Bring your own nondeterminism?
23:28:37 <Bike> Sgeo: already rendered irrelevant
23:28:49 <Bike> tswett: the deterministic version is down the page a bit. it sucks
23:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> no, Sgeo likes it so it's probably nostalgic in some capacity
23:29:19 <Bike> I was going to ask if I needed to download anything to play space station 13
23:29:22 <Bike> the answer is apparently yes.
23:29:29 <Sgeo> The BYOND client
23:29:40 <Sgeo> Called "Dream Seeker"
23:29:59 <Sgeo> All resources for the game itself should be automatically downloaded by the client when you connect
23:30:03 <nooodl> i'm reading the blognomic post. what's this whole list nonsense
23:30:11 <nooodl> did you obfuscate it for "fun"....
23:30:16 <Sgeo> An HTML5 BYOND client would be cool
23:30:29 <Sgeo> Although would presumably need a proxy
23:33:34 <nooodl> this level: one hour with breaks hth
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23:44:40 <kmc> good movie imo
23:45:26 <kmc> are you watching the 3½ hour extended edition
23:45:32 <kmc> i haven't seen that
23:46:18 <kmc> I hear the making-of documentary _Hearts of Darkness_ is also very good
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23:47:04 <Bike> Sgeo: is the linux byond client functional
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23:50:40 <kmc> you should imo
23:55:03 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, can apocalypse now in any way be compared to elliott's dot action 2 travails
23:55:45 <kmc> i cannot say
23:57:30 <Bike> apocalypse now has a better soundtrack
23:57:39 <kmc> it has a v. good soundtrack
00:02:32 <Bike> Sgeo_: does the byond on linux work, also why does SS13 say windows only help
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00:09:20 <nooodl> congratulation elliott
00:10:17 <shachaf> i bet armikrog will have a v. good soundtrack if it manages to get >$200,000 in the next 63 hours
00:11:44 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe you'd be better off doing that in #moremoneythansense
00:11:51 <kmc> is that a r. channel
00:13:27 <kmc> ꙭ + ꙭ + ꙭ + ꙩ = ꙮ
00:14:22 <kmc> multiocular O doesn't have majiscule and miniscule versions?
00:14:29 <kmc> majuscule*
00:14:51 <shachaf> can there be a multiocular o that isn't majuscule
00:14:53 <Sgeo_> Bike, a non-graphical version works on Linux
00:14:55 <kmc> i don't know
00:15:17 <Sgeo_> So in theory you can play if you don't mind just letters, I _think_. Also depends how well the game supports that mode
00:15:40 <shachaf> I don't mind just letters, but the unjust ones (like w) are a problem.
00:15:53 <Bike> what the hell is the point of that.
00:16:27 <Sgeo_> I could be misremembering
00:16:48 <Sgeo_> But anyway, if a game doesn't support it, I think the letters default to being based off internal names of the types
00:16:59 <Sgeo_> e.g. /turf/grass might show up as g
00:17:26 <Sgeo_> This could all be obsolete, incidentally
00:17:33 <Sgeo_> WINE is probably a better bet
00:18:15 <Sgeo_> Although there's a builtin HTML renderer, I don't know if that uses IE rendering engine internally
00:19:13 <Bike> ueueugh there goes any hope of playing it
00:19:30 <Sgeo_> WINE doesn't have a mock IE layout engine?
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00:20:39 <Bike> no, wine won't work for me.
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00:51:18 <shachaf> kmc: today i saw a laptop with a screen on the lid
00:51:26 <shachaf> imo what's going on with that
00:51:39 <kmc> what did it do
00:52:27 <shachaf> i think it was this: http://www.asus.com/vivo/en/taichi.htm
00:53:47 <shachaf> also i saw windows 8 "more like weirdos 8"
00:53:51 <shachaf> the joke is that it's weird
00:54:34 <shachaf> reminds me of windows 3.11
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00:59:58 <shachaf> area man not in fact an idiot
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01:05:16 <kmc> Area Man Still Has Voice
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01:07:04 <Sgeo_> Do you ever get the feeling that sometimes The Onion's goal is to trick people into thinking that it's real, rather than to poke fun at stuff?
01:07:10 <Sgeo_> At least some articles seem like that
01:07:54 <Fiora> http://www.theonion.com/articles/markets-in-turmoil-as-price-of-money-skyrockets-to,32939/ This one was great, I think
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01:44:30 <shachaf> The trouble with Rust is that half the code you find is so outdated that it's a syntax error.
01:45:39 <kmc> is that better or worse than Haskell, where half the code you find is an import or type error
01:47:20 <shachaf> how do i manage to use int::range :'(
01:49:16 <shachaf> can future kmc be a time machine expert instead
01:50:03 <kmc> would prefer both
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02:26:47 <elliott> kmc: someone on #haskell mentioned the idea of doing a simple-as-possible translation of core/stg/cmm/whatever to lua
02:26:57 <kmc> do that, report back w/ findings
02:27:24 <elliott> I was hoping you would do it so I wouldn't have to :(
02:27:30 <kmc> don't want to
02:28:11 <shachaf> kmc: p. sure you'll find that anything that involves elliott doing more work is unfair
02:28:25 <elliott> kmc: <#haskell person> imageine <meta dotailcalls/>
02:28:39 <kmc> parse error
02:28:56 <Bike> i've always wanted tail calls in html.
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02:34:47 <kmc> you define it
02:35:03 <HackEgo> RainbowUnicorn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:37:16 <kmc> many of us
02:37:20 <Bike> everybody here knows brainfuck.
02:37:41 <kmc> not that hard compared to many esoteric languages
02:37:50 <Bike> yeah it's pretty easy to learn.
02:37:58 <kmc> brainfuck isn't really designed to be difficult, so much as designed to be very simple and have a simple compiler
02:37:58 <Bike> !bf_txtgen !bf_txtgen
02:38:02 <EgoBot> 109 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>-.++++.>----.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++.----.<+.--.>------.>-. [344]
02:38:21 <elliott> I can't actually write programs that do useful things in brainfuck
02:38:25 <Fiora> !bfjoust !bf_txtgen
02:38:25 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
02:38:29 <Fiora> oh, you can't do that.
02:38:31 <elliott> or useless things. truly, I am a fraud
02:38:33 <kmc> it's difficult because there are so few concepts in the language, but those concepts are pretty familiar ones for most programmers
02:38:59 <elliott> Fiora: Bike's command actually just generated a program that outputs "!bf_txtgen", there's no nesting of commands in EgoBot
02:39:10 <shachaf> kmc: i heard that 98% of programmers die when they hear the word "pointer" though
02:39:20 <kmc> have also heard
02:39:24 <Gregor> I would change my nick to "TwilightSpockle"
02:39:27 <elliott> @@ @run (@run text "2 + 2")
02:39:34 <elliott> lambdabot does command nesting though!
02:39:37 <Bike> RainbowUnicorn: that's not legal c even. i couldn't guess
02:39:43 <Fiora> trying to do addition in bf sounds really difficult...
02:39:44 <kmc> RainbowUnicorn: if you google "brainfuck addition" you will find many results
02:39:50 <Bike> Fiora: nah it's not that bad
02:39:57 <kmc> you decrement one cell and increment the other in a loop
02:40:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms <-- our fine page on the subject
02:40:08 <kmc> it destroys the first value
02:40:09 <shachaf> is that our only pge on the subject
02:40:10 <Fiora> that only works if your numbers fit in 8-bit, right?
02:40:15 <Fiora> and then, like, you'll somehow have to print it
02:40:29 <elliott> yeah decimal conversion is... a lot more difficult
02:40:29 <Bike> wait what's the cell size ot to do with it
02:40:50 <elliott> though not particularly long given http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Divmod_algorithm, probably
02:45:15 <kmc> brainfuck has kind of a poor reputation here because of the number of people who make a trivial variation on brainfuck and try to pass it off as a new interesting esolang
02:45:19 <Bike> tell us if you find the shortest way to print out 28187
02:45:28 <kmc> but brainfuck itself is a fine language
02:45:36 <shachaf> "teach yourself brainfuck in 31 seconds"
02:46:55 <shachaf> "teach yourself drugz in 31 seconds"
02:47:04 <kmc> RainbowUnicorn: other esolangs I recommend checking out: Befunge, Unlambda, Lazy K, Piet
02:47:11 <kmc> others here can suggest a lot more
02:47:11 <Bike> probably you've seen "Teach yourself C++ in 21 days" or "Teach yourself Prolog in 24 hours" sorts of books
02:47:13 <elliott> shachaf: I don't know why I laughed
02:47:29 <shachaf> elliott: because drugz jokes are funny
02:47:36 <elliott> kmc: you should add Underload to your list
02:47:53 <kmc> RainbowUnicorn: you might also like BF Joust which is a 2-player programming game based on Brainfuck: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
02:47:55 <Bike> yeah underload is good.
02:48:02 <elliott> that isn't a statement about what you should tell people so much as a statement that you should become an underload fan because it's great
02:48:04 <kmc> it has very deep strategy http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
02:49:32 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome is another interesting, unimplemented lang
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02:51:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: goodbye: not found
02:51:44 <elliott> so uh... what are the odds on them coming back
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02:52:05 <kmc> six over pi squared
02:52:19 <shachaf> maybe you meant five or seven
02:55:28 <kmc> #esoteric: where even "hi" is a complicated in-joke
02:57:24 <elliott> kmc: your + balances out your name really well
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02:58:38 <shachaf> imo kmc should be dethroned
02:58:48 <Fiora> but I like listening to his voice
03:01:27 <elliott> whoa. I have no idea what kmc's voice sounds like. I have no idea what kmc looks like
03:01:34 <elliott> actually I think kmc looks basically like edwardk in my head
03:01:43 <Bike> do you know what edwardk looks like
03:02:09 <Fiora> I assume he's tall and vaguely imposing
03:02:48 <Bike> + mushrooms growing in hair and shirt
03:02:57 <Fiora> and bike is standing next to him and resting on his shoulder or something
03:03:08 <Fiora> and elliott is jumping up and down waving his hands, trying to get kmc's attention
03:03:16 <Fiora> but kmc is so tall he can't see him
03:03:25 <Fiora> I truly have no idea where I'm going here
03:03:49 <Bike> no i think this is accurate
03:04:05 <shachaf> elliott: kmc doesn't look very like edwardk at all
03:04:11 <Fiora> and I'm hiding behind bike. I tink.
03:04:35 <Bike> too bad i'm basically made of skin and plastic and don't cover much area.
03:04:50 <Fiora> you have more forward-facing surface area than me!
03:05:32 <Bike> Maybe I could be wearing a wind breaker to make sure you're hidden.
03:05:49 <elliott> Bike: https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9c51a8b8afa2366a2ef4650c411f187a?s=420&d=https://a248.e.akamai.net/assets.github.com%2Fimages%2Fgravatars%2Fgravatar-user-420.png edwardk
03:05:54 <Bike> I could also present myself as large to deter predators, and envelop prey/cute girls possibly.
03:05:58 <elliott> note "420" in the URL, proof that it's also kmc
03:06:57 <Fiora> y-you're just trying to get me flustered now <.<
03:08:52 <Bike> I do want to go around monster-ing people like a lizard now, though.
03:09:23 <shachaf> are there any pictures of kmc on the internet
03:10:35 <shachaf> come on disambiguate a little
03:10:39 <Bike> no you can't do that.
03:11:05 <shachaf> p. sure no one will stop me
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03:12:39 <Fiora> also bike which parts of you are plastic o_O
03:12:45 <Fiora> like where did the plastic comment come from
03:13:40 <Bike> i pretty much imagine myself as looking like http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090812195141/half-life/en/images/4/40/Stalker_ep1.jpg
03:14:34 <Bike> betcha can't prove me wrong
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03:16:20 <shachaf> Bike: oh yeah, in which axiom system
03:16:55 <elliott> Fiora: well he's a bicycle
03:17:01 <elliott> they generally contain plastic parts I think
03:17:02 <Fiora> I guess a bicycle is not good for hiding behind
03:17:22 <Fiora> still geez. you're pretty huge I thought <.<
03:17:26 <shachaf> Bike: i thought you were human
03:17:33 <Bike> No, I'm humankin.
03:17:37 <shachaf> and just used the nick Bike on irc
03:17:48 <Fiora> you said you were like 5'11" or soething. that's a pretty big bike
03:17:56 <kmc> i don't look that much like edwardk
03:18:01 <kmc> i have short hair and i'm not as big
03:18:03 <Bike> a bicycle built for nine~
03:18:13 <shachaf> i bet Bike is a victorian bicycle
03:18:27 <Bike> a penny farthing? i'm not that old fashioned.
03:18:48 <kmc> more like penny farting
03:18:57 <kmc> i have poor memory
03:19:00 <elliott> any hair shorter than mine is short
03:19:00 <kmc> i thought he had, like, a ponytail
03:19:12 <elliott> it would have to be a long ponytail to count
03:19:33 <kmc> I think of myself as looking like a pretty stereotypical programmer... kinda pudgy white guy wearing a tshirt and cargo pants
03:19:49 <shachaf> kmc: when i saw you i thought you were unusual looking
03:19:52 <kmc> but I don't anymore wear t-shirts with sassy nerd slogans on them, just plain black
03:20:15 <kmc> and I don't have facial hair and I'm not super fat or greasy (opinions may differ on this)
03:20:24 <elliott> I picture shachaf as being tall and skinny and I think having blond hair. I have no idea why
03:20:27 <kmc> i used to wear tie dye more often
03:20:36 <kmc> I'm sure I've seen a pic of shachaf online
03:20:54 <elliott> inb4 shachaf links to that pic that isn't actually a pic.
03:20:57 <shachaf> elliott: i had blond hair until i was 3 or so does that count
03:21:06 <shachaf> elliott: oh good idea thanks for reminding me
03:21:15 <kmc> shachaf: how does that work
03:21:26 <shachaf> I look like this: http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png
03:21:44 <elliott> wow slbkbs.org, so last year. I thought it was all shachaf.net now
03:21:57 <kmc> no hebrew IDN??
03:22:35 <shachaf> kmc: i think there are pictures of me online from when i was 6..........
03:23:30 <Bike> i look like a stereotypical programmer except for being a long bike covered in slime and other organic compounds
03:23:30 * Fiora wears rectangular-ish black framed glasses, has long straight black hair with bangs, and usually wears a shirt with a sweater or maybe a light jacket and a casual skirt with tights?
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03:26:07 <elliott> Bike: where does the slime come from...
03:26:20 <Bike> i became a biologist to find out
03:26:27 <kmc> shachaf: what did you think was unusual about me
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03:29:14 <elliott> appearance bandwagon submission: I look boring
03:29:59 <kmc> except you have super long hair?
03:30:30 <elliott> it's not actually super long
03:31:14 <shachaf> i used to have longer hair than i do now
03:31:39 <shachaf> people told me i was a p. girl a lot at the time
03:31:48 <shachaf> now they don't tell me i'm p. :'(
03:34:16 <Fiora> elliott's definition of boring actually means "adorable"
03:34:16 <Lymia> Who would ever do that
03:34:47 <Lymia> I mean, except to maintain a hairstyle D:
03:34:55 <elliott> that's not what I mean when I call Bike boring!
03:34:57 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
03:35:02 <elliott> (as far as I am aware I have never called Bike boring.)
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03:35:51 <shachaf> esoteric/2013-04-07.txt:05:26:16: <elliott> you're boring, Bike
03:36:08 <Fiora> 20:29 < elliott> appearance bandwagon submission: I look boring
03:36:13 <Fiora> I am going by that
03:36:23 <Bike> i agree with both quoted messages
03:37:08 <shachaf> Fiora: /set show_nickmode_empty off
03:37:26 <Bike> shachaf: never
03:38:40 <Bike> elliott: how adorable am i
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04:06:29 * Fiora yawns with elliott
04:07:00 <shachaf> elliott: stop living in america time hth
04:07:33 <elliott> what time is it in america
04:07:54 <Bike> @localtime america
04:07:55 <lambdabot> Local time for America is Tue Jun 25 13:07:51 2013
04:08:10 <kmc> `run TZ=America/New_York date
04:08:11 <HackEgo> Tue Jun 25 00:08:11 EDT 2013
04:08:19 <shachaf> `run TZ=America/Los_Angeles date
04:08:20 <HackEgo> Mon Jun 24 21:08:20 PDT 2013
04:08:23 <lambdabot> Local time for Fiora is Mon Jun 24 21:08:23 2013
04:08:26 <lambdabot> Local time for Bike is Mon Jun 24 21:08:25 2013
04:08:29 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Tue Jun 25 00:08:29 2013
04:08:35 <Bike> so america is in like, india or something? cool
04:08:43 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Jun 24 21:08:39 2013
04:08:46 <kmc> `run TZ=America/Anchorage date
04:08:48 <HackEgo> Mon Jun 24 20:08:47 AKDT 2013
04:08:51 <elliott> conclusion: kmc isn't in America
04:08:54 <kmc> `run TZ=America/Honolulu date
04:08:55 <HackEgo> Tue Jun 25 04:08:55 America 2013
04:09:02 <kmc> `run TZ=America/Phoenix date
04:09:04 <HackEgo> Mon Jun 24 21:09:03 MST 2013
04:09:19 <elliott> ok well hawaii doesn't even begin to count if you ask me.
04:09:24 <Bike> `run TZ=Canada/Newfoundland date
04:09:26 <HackEgo> Tue Jun 25 01:39:25 NDT 2013
04:09:32 <elliott> it doesn't even get to 2. starts at 1, goes nowhere. no counting
04:09:33 <kmc> elliott: hey we stole it fair and square
04:09:37 <Bike> good time zone imo
04:09:53 <kmc> `run TZ=Oceania/Honolulu date
04:09:55 <HackEgo> Tue Jun 25 04:09:55 Oceania 2013
04:10:21 <kmc> @localtime lambdabot
04:10:21 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
04:10:33 <shachaf> `run TZ=Pacific/Honolulu date
04:10:35 <HackEgo> Mon Jun 24 18:10:34 HST 2013
04:10:44 <Bike> stop ruining my immersion elliott
04:10:50 <shachaf> kmc: we're at war with oceania
04:18:37 <elliott> anyway the real time is 5 am.
04:25:20 <HackEgo> Tue Jun 25 04:25:19 elliott 2013
04:26:33 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctTVcKNx8Rk
04:35:17 <shachaf> kmc: i wish i had learned rust really well a long time ago but then forgot most of it
04:35:21 <shachaf> then i could say i'm rusty
04:35:45 <shachaf> which is probably the first rust pun everyone makes "but oh well"
04:36:17 <shachaf> anyway it looks like it's p. nice and also like it's p. p. immature
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06:21:50 <elliott> kmc: doing the luajit thing
06:22:08 <elliott> or at least thinking that I should do either that or one of the two other things I think I should be doing without actually doing any of them
06:22:40 <elliott> shachaf: would cmm or stg be better to turn into lua
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06:49:07 <shachaf> 23:47 * shachaf heard a rumour rust was nearly stable...
06:49:11 <shachaf> 23:47 < dbaupp> shachaf: heard wrong ;)
06:49:11 <shachaf> 23:47 < aatch> shachaf, you heard wrong.
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08:40:08 <elliott> shachaf: /set show_nickmode_empty off
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09:16:46 <elliott> Deewiant: the joke is 04:37:08 <shachaf> Fiora: /set show_nickmode_empty off
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13:14:17 <elliott> you should fix the topic and then op kmc, hth
13:14:54 <oerjan> why do people keep drowning me in heaps of work
13:15:35 <elliott> you could delegate some of it to kmc, hth
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13:29:15 <oerjan> <Bike> so america is in like, india or something? cool <-- japan, it seems
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15:48:25 <HackEgo> Semen_Dickman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:49:49 <mnoqy> ??????????????????????????
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16:13:57 <quintopia> Semen_Dickman: you sound like you could use a cookie. and an anger management class
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16:18:10 <quintopia> AnotherTest: i was assuming the misspellings were intentional
16:19:22 <mnoqy> all Semen_Dickman needs is a bit of love and some care
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16:21:43 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen flack ever
16:27:46 <myname> the nickname semen dickman let me think he gets a lot of love... from himself
16:29:54 <Taneb> Have you tried in #toilets?
16:30:19 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
16:31:19 <Semen_Dickman> HEY SERIOUSLY I WANT THIS FUCKER GOING PLEASE HELP ME
16:32:06 <myname> yeah, people love to help people yelling at them
16:32:19 <myname> insert obligatory hth here
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16:48:35 <ion> http://www.virtualshackles.com/421
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16:50:06 <ion> mnoqy: You’re just feeding it. Ignore them and they’ll get bored.
16:50:07 <katla> mnoqy stop giving him attentoin
16:50:08 <mnoqy> are any ops around? fizzie?
16:50:24 <mnoqy> ion, katla: yeah, yeah
16:51:33 <mnoqy> kind of curious how people do this tho
16:51:42 <mnoqy> ????like, why???????
16:56:44 <myname> can't we keep it and raise it?
16:57:04 <myname> poor misunderstood thing
16:57:23 <myname> maybe someday it will even be able to talk properly
16:57:34 <mnoqy> myname: i suggest you follow ion and katla's advice, it's working wonders for me
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17:07:33 <coppro> Semen_Dickman: damn, you got me
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17:28:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
17:28:06 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +b *!*@117.206.25.86.
17:28:13 -!- fizzie has kicked Semen_Dickman Semen_Dickman.
17:28:22 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
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17:28:42 <fizzie> (I'm kind of on vacation here.)
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17:39:52 <katla> elliott stream that game again
17:47:49 <kmc> `quote #toilet
17:47:51 <HackEgo> 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets
17:48:04 <kmc> shouldn't it be ##toilet anyway
17:48:13 <kmc> also if I had op power I could have dealt with the situtaion abov
17:56:10 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, you already have voice power, don't get ahead of yourself.
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18:57:27 <Bike> wow did someone seriously just join the channel to act like a family guy joke
18:57:43 <katla> what are your interests
18:58:13 <Bike> math, brains, legs, punching dickbags
18:58:55 <kmc> this machine punches dickbags
18:59:05 <Bike> Right now I'm reading an introduction to real analysis.
19:00:55 <Bike> i know what a topology is now, it's all hella exciting
19:01:50 <katla> i dont really know abot topology
19:02:22 <Bike> me neither, that's why it's exciting.
19:07:35 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
19:07:52 -!- conehead has joined.
19:08:50 <katla> i know the defeinition
19:09:15 <Bike> the definition of what a topology is?
19:11:07 <Bike> well uh it lets you define continuity and convergence and stuff without a notion of distance, so that's cool
19:18:55 <Bike> > let f x = x + 1/x in map f [1..]
19:18:56 <lambdabot> [2.0,2.5,3.3333333333333335,4.25,5.2,6.166666666666667,7.142857142857143,8....
19:19:27 <Bike> > iterate (\x -> x + 1/x) 2
19:19:28 <lambdabot> [2.0,2.5,2.9,3.2448275862068963,3.5530103704789475,3.8344618428159674,4.095...
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19:31:57 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
19:33:10 <Bike> not a fan of constants?
19:34:55 <katla> attempt at strart discusion failed
19:35:16 <Bike> yeah i turns out i actually don' know shit about anything
19:36:39 <Bike> it happens when by it i mean me not talking
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20:03:48 <Bike> kmc: now i'm looking for myrands. http://pastebin.com/5gSh5iXJ why would you write your own lcg like this
20:06:39 <Bike> https://github.com/cpuwhiz11/CS-School-Work/blob/b19e66cb38828e22bd1bcee31c923c95e62062eb/101/pg44.c good
20:08:29 <Bike> int ret = (int) (((float) n * (float) rand()) / ((float) RAND_MAX + 1.0)); "here let me sign your cast"
20:10:15 <katla> how do you design a random number generator?
20:10:35 <Bike> "std::size_t ret = rand() % N;" i don't even know what's going on here
20:10:50 <Bike> katla: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator is a place to start
20:11:32 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRNG ~
20:11:56 <katla> so theres this Hull-Dobell Theorem
20:12:09 <katla> that tells you when a linear RNG will be good for all seeds
20:12:48 <Bike> this particular kind, yeah.
20:12:52 <Bike> and for certain values of "good"
20:12:56 <katla> LCGs tend to exhibit some severe defects. For instance, if an LCG is used to choose points in an n-dimensional space, the points will lie on, at most, m1/n hyperplanes (Marsaglia's Theorem
20:13:02 <Bike> yeah it's not great
20:13:08 <Bike> but it's easy to understand, so, good for learning
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20:14:57 <Fiora> it's basically like, random number generators are a tradeoff between "fast" and "good randomness"
20:15:02 <Bike> man RANDU is so great
20:15:05 <Fiora> and like an LCG is fast and simple but doesn't have great randomness
20:15:23 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
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20:16:13 <katla> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversive_congruential_generator
20:16:25 <katla> x_{i+1} = c if x_i = 0
20:16:54 <katla> i suppose it doesn't matter though
20:18:40 <Bike> doesn't matter?
20:19:01 <katla> my first thought was that might give a bias towards c but it doesnt
20:20:35 <katla> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_feedback_shift_register
20:20:41 <Bike> well, assuming x_i is evenly distributed in 0..q it should work
20:20:45 <katla> this seems like thenext step up
20:21:10 <Bike> nah, it's still linear.
20:21:25 <mnoqy> linear feedback shift register was the first sorta prng i learned
20:21:34 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlekamp-Massey_algorithm
20:23:52 <Bike> "const int Random::NewRand()"
20:29:37 <katla> so whats an example of a nonlinear RNG?
20:29:47 <katla> other than the inverse one
20:30:01 <katla> oh! blum blum shub
20:30:07 <katla> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum_Blum_Shub
20:31:54 <Bike> most are nonlinear really
20:35:11 <Bike> blum blum shub, mersenne
20:35:47 <Bike> well i guess linearity isn't that important and i'm talking out my ass but
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21:12:19 <kmc> cool, Marsaglia's theorem
21:12:43 <kmc> I know Marsaglia from MWC256 here: http://forums.wolfram.com/mathgroup/archive/2003/Feb/msg00456.html
21:13:54 <Bike> «Just as the "Miss America Contest" judges have to[...]» ok
21:14:26 <kmc> it's kind of awesome that a) Blum Blum Shub is named after the three inventors, b) the two Blums are married, c) they're both CS professors at CMU, d) their son is also a CS professor at CMU
21:14:37 <Bike> he's also Blum right
21:14:52 <kmc> the blum dynasty
21:15:12 <kmc> srand( time( NULL ) ) ; x = rand() % 39 + -19 ;
21:16:11 <shachaf> kmc: are they related to Blum the phd student at cmu
21:16:55 <Fiora> "Avrim is the son of two other famous computer scientists, Manuel Blum and Lenore Blum.[4] Avrim is the father of Alex Blum and Aaron Blum."
21:17:10 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
21:17:22 <Bike> so, the blum dynasty.
21:17:28 <Bike> this could rival the curie dynasty maaaaan
21:18:36 <Fiora> "Ève was the only member of her family who did not choose a career as a scientist and did not win a Nobel Prize, although her husband Henry Richardson Labouisse, Jr. did collect the Nobel Peace Prize in 1965 on behalf of UNICEF."
21:18:47 <Fiora> geez. talk about a high standard to live up to
21:19:25 <shachaf> Fiora: it is a nobel cause
21:21:23 <Phantom__Hoover> the torrent claims to be 1080p; except it's in widescreen, so there aren't 1080 vertical pixels
21:23:30 <Bike> kmc: what kind of application would you need a 2^131086 period for O_o
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21:47:13 <oerjan> <myname> insert obligatory hth here <-- i think that's an incorrect format hth
21:48:24 * oerjan is trying that newfangled screen thing
21:48:35 <oerjan> i think i need a better command char than ^A
21:50:42 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/8296d5c9a6b3bbe0fbfeca8776ccb055/tumblr_mo53okwvyG1s0s0n5o1_500.jpg
21:53:29 -!- carado has joined.
22:22:01 <oerjan> dammit it turns out trying to set the screen command character to ^S (_so_ mnemonical) is _not_ a good idea.
22:22:23 <oerjan> took me ages to fix without killing screen :P
22:22:51 <oerjan> (fortunately i could do shell commands, and screen -X helped)
22:25:46 <oerjan> ok back to this hilarious phallic guy in the logs
22:28:12 <oerjan> elliott: CLEARLY THAT WAS YOU TRYING TO SLYLY IMPLICATE WE NEED MORE OPS HTH
22:32:58 <Bike> the most pointless false flag operation in the history of the world
22:34:03 <Bike> well, glad we got that worked out then.
22:34:21 <oerjan> (hint: O KAY doesn't mean yes)
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22:56:52 <kmc> http://tvpmassachusetts.org/?page_id=6 should I have voted for this party? they were on the ballot for some reason
22:57:11 <kmc> Democrat, Republican, and Twelve Visions Party
22:57:16 <kmc> no Green Rainbow this time
22:57:39 <Bike> is this a fucking self-help stoner party
22:59:45 <kmc> if you look at the top you can find the "Prime Law" which they want to replace the US constitution with
23:00:12 <Bike> "I do not know where I got off track but I look at this and at other passages about women and realize that I have
23:00:15 <Bike> taken on too much of a tomboy role and need to go back to being the woman God made me and enjoy
23:00:44 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:01:26 <Bike> oh no, they're libertarians
23:01:51 <Bike> Just curious if this was inpired by the three-article code of Liu Bang, the first Han emperor of China.
23:02:58 <Bike> so how did they get on the ballot
23:03:10 <Bike> lots of entertaining spam of the electoral people?
23:03:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:03:49 <Bike> http://tvpmassachusetts.org/?page_id=19#comment-1730 speaks to me on a psychosexual level
23:04:49 <kmc> it's fun trying to sort out the spam comments from the crazies on here
23:05:18 <kmc> "Howԁy would you mind lеttіng me know whiсh ωebhoѕt you’re using?"
23:05:34 <Fiora> my d4d 3arns $7 512 per m0nth us1ng thi5 o/\/e we1rd tri(k
23:05:46 <kmc> herb4l vjagra
23:07:10 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
23:07:55 <zzo38> Now they add non-ASCII letters to trick them?
23:08:49 <zzo38> Disable non-ASCII in those comments will correct that problem at least (but not all of them); whether or not such a thing would be suitable depend what kind of things are being commented on, I suppose.
23:09:44 <Bike> i'll inform the twelve visions council immediately
23:10:12 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:11:05 <zzo38> Of course this won't help 100% though; maybe only 5% or so but it might also help another thing other than spam.
23:11:47 <zzo38> Also, to fix the spam still require many more thing too.
23:21:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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23:31:32 * kgoret gives ion a kiss. no reason in particular.
23:32:17 <HackEgo> kgoret: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:34:39 * kgoret sings OOM BOP .. OOM BOT .> LAGHLRHUGRUHS HUUUHGHRH LURRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHR
23:46:52 <shachaf> more like a few too many 's's
23:48:57 <Fiora> I have neither, is that good?
23:50:27 <shachaf> The capital F situation is dire (because we have three, and nicks should start with a lowercase letter).
23:50:44 <Fiora> but I'm a proper noun
23:51:04 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to AProperNoun.
23:51:12 <shachaf> You mean "I is a proper noun".
23:51:19 <kmc> i seem to be a verb
23:51:53 <shachaf> oh no in 2 days kmc is leaving massachusetts forever
23:51:55 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5IhPXEKNGE
23:52:07 <kmc> shachaf: more or less? I'll probably visit at some point
23:52:19 <kmc> shachaf: what about it thouh
23:52:58 <Fiora> okay, okay, Fiora is a proper noun
23:53:14 <kmc> I am a person but 'I' is a pronoun
23:53:22 <kmc> you'd think this channel of all channels could get quoting right
23:53:49 <shachaf> you'd think this channel of all channels would get quoting wrong on purpose
23:54:02 <AProperNoun> I wouldn't use '\'' to quote words even if the word is one letter
23:54:16 <kmc> rong on purpwse
23:54:26 <shachaf> AProperNoun: I'm waiting for the `olist update.
23:55:05 <shachaf> kmc: i found multiple rust bugs by trying to use it yesterday
23:55:45 <shachaf> like the bug where you can make struct Foo { a: int, a: int }
23:56:09 <shachaf> also it's the opposite of nearly stable
23:56:10 <olsner> if shachaf finds bugs in it, that's p. buggy
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00:02:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel for "scare quoted" people | where even "hi" is a p. complicated in-joke | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:05:32 <myname> oerjan: i'm still learning
00:06:29 <katla> do you guys ever talk about anything interesting
00:07:03 <Fiora> I try sometimes but I'm not very good at starting conversations
00:07:09 <Fiora> and they don't seem to be interested in a lot of the stuff I am so
00:08:09 <kmc> katla: what do you find interesting? you could try to start a conversation on one of those topics
00:08:11 <Phantom___Hoover> and now i reached the scene with the french guy ranting about how the french lost all their wars
00:08:18 <kmc> to me a lot of the conversations in here are interesting
00:08:26 <katla> im not really interested in stuff :/
00:08:32 <kmc> even the ones that aren't me talking to myself
00:08:58 <Bike> apocalypse now mentions france, huh
00:09:11 <katla> ho can we talk about compactness though
00:09:21 <katla> there's nothing to say
00:09:34 <kmc> in the 'redux' editions they run into some french colonists who are still around for some reason
00:09:58 * shachaf likes the kmc talking to himself conversations
00:10:06 <shachaf> also the kmc talking to other people conversations
00:10:16 <Phantom___Hoover> i think it's an extension of the 'going backwards through vietnamese history' thing
00:10:49 <Fiora> shachaf: Um... I like astrophysics and computer architecture and strategy games and JRPGs and otome games and plushies and mahou shoujo and some other things and there doesn't seem to be that much overlap there
00:11:31 <kmc> Phantom___Hoover: ending with jungle warlords?
00:11:50 <shachaf> i wanted to make bacteria plushies (bacteria are cute)
00:12:01 <Fiora> shachaf: you can buy those! I actually have two
00:12:14 <shachaf> Fiora: do they use the motto "gotta catch them all"
00:12:18 <Fiora> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/6708/
00:12:26 <kmc> uh clearly, a manga where magical girls learn astrophysics and computer architecture
00:12:28 <Fiora> a friend sent me the mono virus
00:12:38 <Fiora> probably so he could say "I gave fiora kissing disease"
00:13:02 <Fiora> (he is a terrible^Wwonderful flirt)
00:13:14 <shachaf> Fiora: ok so those exist but maybe they didn't exist back when i thought about it
00:13:29 <Bike> what, no blood tube
00:13:45 <shachaf> An otome game (乙女ゲーム otome gēmu?, lit. "maiden game") is a video game that is targeted towards a female market, where one of the main goals, besides the plot goal, is to develop a romantic relationship between the female player character and one of several male, or occasionally female characters.
00:14:01 <Fiora> is "visual novel" a better general term <.<
00:14:36 <Bike> garrus isn't very bishie. imo.
00:15:13 <katla> can you read japanese?
00:15:29 <shachaf> hey i can money through gmail now
00:15:43 <kmc> it's like harry potter except they are all learning computer architecture
00:16:08 <nooodl> <kmc> uh clearly, a manga where magical girls learn astrophysics and computer architecture <-- id read this
00:16:14 <Bike> i'd also read it.
00:16:20 <nooodl> "just putting that out there"
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00:17:01 <Bike> yeah sorry phantom, objectively bad taste there.
00:17:06 <Fiora> I played mass effect 1 and 2 but I lost a bit of interest towards the end, I should play 3 sometime though
00:17:12 <Fiora> but I was like "aghghghg I have to download origin", and so I never did
00:17:19 <Fiora> garrus was pretty wonderful though
00:17:28 <Fiora> unfortunately my favorite character had no romance route, buuut
00:17:36 <Koen_> are you often like "aghghghg"?
00:17:39 <Bike> it was the opera guy wasn't it
00:17:57 <Fiora> you mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXiU6kiq_Ms ?
00:18:21 <Fiora> Mordin was so completely amazing
00:18:50 <Bike> that musta been a fun acting job.
00:19:11 <Fiora> katla: I -wish- I could. but the amount of japanese I know could fit on half a page
00:19:36 <Bike> I for one am often like "aghghghg"
00:20:07 <Phantom___Hoover> "I should play 3 sometime though" probably don't play it after... sanctuary?
00:21:05 <Fiora> I guess I kind of like bioware's older games better... I hope dragon age 3 is okay at least
00:21:38 <Fiora> and in fairness they have some really wonderful writers so...
00:21:40 <katla> Fiora hm why dont you write that all out then fill the rest of the page with new words and learn it all
00:21:53 <Bike> well there's like. a lot of it
00:21:59 <Fiora> because learning a language like that takes years of practice and dedication and is really difficult
00:22:34 <Phantom___Hoover> from what i understand, the talent pool at bioware has become incredibly diluted
00:23:18 <Phantom___Hoover> since they're now split across what, two or three different studios now? and they have a bunch more staff, and they're now locked into EA's AAA release cycle
00:24:01 <shachaf> is armikrog going to make it y/n
00:24:25 <ion> http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1949537745/armikrog/
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00:26:05 <ion> Note that extrapolating from the last two or three data points seems enough for it to make it. So if the latest trend continues…
00:26:40 <ion> http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1949537745/armikrog/#chart-daily
00:27:30 <pikhq_> Inquiry: I might be getting hired by Google. Yes or very yes on not finishing college?
00:27:54 <coppro> pikhq_: as in, dropping out and going to google?
00:28:20 <coppro> pikhq_: if they're willing to actually have you do it, very yes, unless you're working on chrome (imo)
00:28:34 <coppro> but if you're actually going to go full-time, internal mobility is high, so whatever
00:28:34 <pikhq_> So far made it past the initial phone screen.
00:28:46 <pikhq_> With them knowing that that's where I'm at.
00:29:33 <pikhq_> Noting also that I've been at least considering dropping out *as is*.
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00:30:30 <kgoret> pikhq_: count the number of times you hear "cool" in your interview. if more than 7 stay in school.
00:31:20 <pikhq_> kgoret: Google backend stuff.
00:32:05 <pikhq_> From a recruiter contacting me...
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00:33:15 <Fiora> did you get a job offer or just a recruiter email?
00:33:27 <pikhq_> Recruiter email & initial interview.
00:35:21 <Fiora> I don't think that's any sort of guarantee you'll get a job at all... recruiters send out a whole bunch of emails, I don't think they have any influence on the interview process and whether or not you get a job
00:35:55 <pikhq_> It's not, I'm just hopeful. And gonna see where this leads.
00:36:35 <pikhq_> Also I'm getting kinda sick of going through college this fucking slowly.
00:37:39 <pikhq_> At the rate I'm going I'll be bald when I get my diploma.
00:38:28 <shachaf> a brilliant artist must be bald and daring
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00:41:53 <kmc> coppro: why is chrome so bad, compared to google's 90000 other projects
00:41:59 <kmc> I think chrome is at least a lot more interesting
00:42:11 -!- Bike has joined.
00:42:29 <kmc> I think Google usually doesn't tell you what specific project you'd work on, until they give you an offer
00:42:49 <kmc> kgoret: no it's all about "awesome" now
00:43:02 <pikhq_> They tell you the general area they'll be hiring in.
00:43:30 <kmc> you should think hard on whether you want to commit to being at Google a few years
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00:43:42 <kmc> because absent a diploma, you'd be using that experience to sell future employers
00:43:56 <kmc> do you know which office you'd be in?
00:44:33 <kmc> not as cool as SF, but I hear it's really hard to get a spot there
00:44:52 <kmc> it exists so that Google can acqui-hire SF startups who won't sell unless they can stay in the city ;P
00:44:53 <pikhq_> That *is* the Googleplex.
00:44:59 <shachaf> I hear SF isn't so much of an engineering office or something.
00:45:08 <kmc> well, I know some people doing engineering there
00:45:19 <kmc> pikhq_: Have you been applying to lots of jobs or is this just Google contacting you out of the blue
00:45:33 <coppro> kmc: I just don't like working on chrome
00:46:03 <kmc> pikhq_: do you think you have the patience & energy to do a bit of a job search to see if you can do better than Google (wrt whatever your own goals are)
00:46:13 <coppro> pikhq_: I highly recommend infrastructure teams if you can get there
00:46:22 <pikhq_> coppro: That's what I'm being recruited for.
00:46:46 <kmc> I have some regrets over not doing "job searches" in the past and mostly taking the first job that came along
00:46:48 <coppro> google infrastructure is like a playground
00:47:05 <coppro> kmc: no, I'm pretty sure there's few jobs in the world better than a Google infrastructure engineer
00:47:12 <pikhq_> kmc: Yeah, I'll probably be poking around some more. I'll just say this particular one is damned tempting.
00:47:56 <kmc> coppro: you're making some assumptions about what pikhq_ wants there
00:48:11 <kmc> it's pretty arrogant of you
00:48:19 <kmc> big companies have a lot of disadvantages too
00:48:43 <pikhq_> I'll possibly also see if my current internship can be made more... permanent.
00:49:19 <kmc> and Google corporate culture is not to everyone's liking
00:49:22 <kmc> no culture is
00:49:23 <coppro> kmc: everyone thinks exactly like me
00:49:28 <coppro> including elliott in particular
00:51:52 <pikhq_> The fact that trans-related health care things are part of the benefits makes it somewhat more tempting, considering my girlfriend...
00:52:06 <kmc> yeah that's very nice
00:52:23 <Fiora> I remember reading google and microsoft were basically the two best in that category, so that's probably a good reason
00:52:40 <pikhq_> That really shouldn't be the sole basis on which I decide, but it definitely is something in their favor.
00:52:42 <kmc> from wording I assume you aren't married so, does Google cover non-married domestic partner whatever health care?
00:52:54 <kmc> some companies do
00:53:12 <kmc> mozilla will
00:53:13 <pikhq_> Also, it'd be literally impossible for us to marry as-is.
00:53:22 <pikhq_> Fucking gay marriage laws.
00:54:05 <coppro> pikhq_: well, hopefully that law won't be very soon
00:54:39 <pikhq_> If we're lucky, it'll be moot in a day.
00:54:55 <Fiora> oooh, yeah, is the DOMA decision coming out tomorrow?
00:55:07 <Fiora> oh geez, I really really hope there's sanity >_<
00:55:24 <Fiora> I know people literally waiting on that to be able to be together (green cards, etc)
00:55:25 <Bike> well uh you did hear bout their ruling today, didn't you.
00:55:28 <Bike> "not much hope for that"
00:55:35 <Bike> Phantom___Hoover: defense of marriage act
00:55:48 <pikhq_> I'd be stunned if they uphold prop. 8.
00:56:09 <Fiora> DOMA is the problematic one though, because it kind of doesn't matter if the state endorses a marriage if the federal government won't :/
00:56:12 <Bike> for sanity, i meant. not being too serious
00:56:31 <pikhq_> Yeah. I'm just saying that prop. 8 is nearly impossible to uphold because of the details of the case.
00:56:48 <pikhq_> The defense of prop. 8 was basically "gay people are icky!"
00:57:04 <kmc> Fiora: is that really true
00:57:10 <Fiora> kmc: you can't get a green card
00:57:17 <Fiora> you can't file taxes with the IRS, I think, as a couple
00:57:40 <pikhq_> Though Google will pay you the difference. :P
00:57:59 <kmc> but for example child custody, health care decisions, etc. would be mostly state issues, no?
00:58:04 <Fiora> I know a couple who's basically waiting on it, though they can cheat because one of them could probably legitimately get papers saying she was either male or female depending on what the government insisted on
00:58:09 <pikhq_> Yes, those are entirely state issues.
00:58:23 <kmc> so yes it's not a full victory but I think saying it "doesn't matter" is wrong
00:58:37 <Fiora> yeah... I guess it matters in some ways? but like it's missing a lot of important parts
00:58:41 <kmc> also the more legally gay-married people exist, the more pressure there will be to repeal / strike down DOMA
00:59:03 <Bike> "hi we're married and fuck this thing"
00:59:04 <pikhq_> *Most* of the things dealing with marriage are state law issues actually.
00:59:06 <kmc> I generally get pissed off when people say "X is useless!" to mean "X isn't perfect", it happens a lot in discussions of computer security and things like that
00:59:15 <Fiora> yeah, that's not what I meant >_< more like, it loses a lot of it
00:59:23 <Fiora> I should have phrased it better
00:59:30 <pikhq_> Green card, IRS, and federal employment benefits are, like, it
00:59:42 <coppro> pikhq_: you should come visit canada, get hitched, and leave
01:00:05 <Bike> "You managed to upload an image so large that Danbooru 2's thumbnailing job gets whacked by the OOM killer" in other news
01:00:59 <shachaf> Bike: was it a specially-crafted compressed image or something
01:01:00 <Fiora> the whole bypassing-the-problem-by-being-trans thing is interesting though
01:01:06 <Fiora> like I know a couple of two gay men who have been married for like, 15 years
01:01:12 <Fiora> which I think is longer than any state has allowed gay marriage
01:01:26 <Bike> shachaf: apparently unintentional!
01:01:35 <shachaf> how much of a compression ratio can you get
01:01:49 <Bike> oh, it's animated.
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01:02:19 <pikhq_> I know a couple that got divorced after one of them transitioned. That was interesting.
01:02:20 <Fiora> though it's maybe not as totally ridiculous as the thing that some lesbians apparently did back in the 70s, where one was younger than 18 and one was older, and they'd have the older one adopt the younger one to get legal/tax benefits @_@
01:02:30 <pikhq_> Poor guy, getting asked if he was the wife.
01:03:15 <pikhq_> (note that the legal status is that the legal gender status *at the time* is what matters. If it was heterosexual and is now gay that's just fine!)
01:03:34 <Fiora> yeah, it's kind of an odd legal loophole
01:03:44 <Bike> you're a peach, US legal system. an incomprehensible peach
01:06:34 <pikhq_> I wonder what happens if you have a gay marriage in a state and then it becomes straight?
01:07:33 <Fiora> I... that... I have no idea
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01:07:47 <pikhq_> *There's* a confusing edge case for ya.
01:07:57 <Bike> iowa just implodes
01:08:01 <Fiora> the laws clearly need to be refactored or something
01:08:06 <Fiora> so that gender is no longer assumed to be const
01:08:20 <pikhq_> Or from the set {Male, Female}
01:08:46 <shachaf> does gender need to be mentioned
01:09:12 <pikhq_> I... guess it matters for people who are exclusively andro- or gynophilic?
01:09:13 <Bike> http://qntm.org/gay bla bla
01:10:01 <Fiora> pan is the best orientation
01:10:26 <zzo38> Or none at all, I suppose.
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01:11:55 <Bike> gender: basically a roman surface
01:12:18 <Bike> 's non-orientable and looks dumb
01:12:27 <Fiora> Bike: I am glaring at that author for thinking "asexual" is a sex
01:12:32 <kmc> quantum gay
01:12:37 <kmc> a quantum of gay
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01:13:36 <Bike> Fiora: presumably as in "lacks sexual organs"
01:13:49 <Bike> \rainbow{biology}
01:14:36 <Bike> i don't think i remember the usual term
01:14:53 <Bike> wikipedia doesn't have "list of sexes". imo, rage
01:15:21 * Fiora pulls up "sex is a social construction to justify gender" infographicdiagram, etc, etc
01:16:04 <Bike> yeah i know the problems with "lacks sexual organs" as a meaningful designation too
01:16:11 <Bike> peoplescience is hard
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01:16:26 <pikhq_> Fiora: I am pretty sure he thought "asexual" was just a natural construction for "devoid of (biological) sex".
01:16:39 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphous_perversity my god.
01:16:52 <Bike> the only Real objects
01:17:05 <Fiora> pikhq_: yeah, I know, I'm not being toooo serious
01:17:18 <Bike> i think i should pick up a psychoanalysis textbook sometime just for the humor value
01:18:14 * Bike looks up Category:Sexual_orientation, runs into "autovampirism"
01:18:34 <kmc> in b4 category theory joke
01:18:36 <pikhq_> And obviously he has the weird gender-sex conflation in place.
01:19:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_asexuals i think this category needs some work
01:19:31 * Fiora looks, doesn't see sherlock holmes
01:20:01 <Bike> or that chick in the spacecoyote comic.
01:20:03 <Fiora> the problem is it's usually not explicit in canon >_<
01:20:10 * Bike ends mental list of fictional asexuals
01:20:29 <Fiora> like sophie is sort of fan-assumed to be aromantic but....
01:21:47 <Bike> this reminds me that i should take a botany class because i have very little idea of how plants fuck and it seems fascinating
01:22:07 <kmc> the guy i voted for for senate won
01:22:15 <kmc> that means i win too right
01:22:30 <Bike> if twelve wins we all win
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01:23:20 <Bike> "(biology) Having no distinct sex, having no sexual organs." aha there we go
01:23:28 <Bike> now i just need to figure out a less ambiguous term
01:23:33 <shachaf> kmc: it means you have superpowers
01:23:39 <shachaf> kmc: vote for me next time hth
01:23:40 <Bike> this is CLEARLY not a doomed effort because sex is unambiguous
01:24:32 <pikhq_> Even friggin' biological notions of sex are complicated.
01:24:44 <Fiora> neuter....? though that's the name of a gender too :/
01:24:50 <Bike> "A statuette of Aphroditus in the anasyromenos pose. The ancient Greeks and Romans believed the pose had apotropaic magical power." this is going well.
01:25:02 <Fiora> Bike: http://pbfcomics.com/146/
01:25:22 <Bike> hermaphroditic plants?? what's the deal
01:25:27 <Bike> i don't know the deal.
01:25:41 <Fiora> actually I kind of wonder like... why did animals ever stop being hermaphrodites
01:25:50 <kmc> imo read about sexual reproduction in fungi
01:26:03 <Fiora> like, isn't it more efficient to have two animals mate, and then they can *both* carry children, and stuff
01:26:07 <Bike> Fiora: that's one of the more old and controversial questions in evolutionary biology.
01:26:27 <Bike> i mean, it's interesting.
01:26:29 <katla> hey that's a really good question, why do so many species have two sexes?
01:26:58 <Fiora> I'm guessing it comes from the whole chromosomal thing? I mean like there's only a couple sex chromosome systems, right?
01:27:03 <Bike> As opposed to more, or as opposed to no differentiation?
01:27:07 <pikhq_> Fiora: There's several.
01:27:15 <pikhq_> Shit, there's two or three in the mammals.
01:27:22 <Fiora> there's... ZW, XY, X0, and temperature?
01:27:27 <Bike> there's also sexual differentiation systems not based on chromosomes
01:27:33 <pikhq_> Those are the common ones, Fiora.
01:27:33 <shachaf> Fiora: hey, do you want to be on `pbflist!!
01:27:40 <Bike> temperature for example isn't exclusive of ZW
01:27:41 <Fiora> "On November 3, 2010, scientists announced the discovery of a female Boa constrictor that can produce offspring without mating and, through such asexual reproduction, produced 22 female offspring" O_O
01:27:47 <shachaf> or, may i suggest......`pbflistdeluxe
01:28:06 <Fiora> "The platypus has a ten-chromosome–based system, where the chromosomes form a multivalent chain in male meiosis, segregating into XXXXX-sperm and YYYYY-sperm, with XY-equivalent chromosomes at one end of this chain and the ZW-equivalent chromosomes at the other end."
01:28:09 <Bike> Fiora: you didn't know about that? we've known about [iforgettheword] for years
01:28:16 <Bike> also yes platypi are fucking nuts
01:28:29 <Fiora> ZW is used by birds
01:28:33 <Fiora> and some other animals
01:28:34 <Bike> katla: sex chromosomes.
01:28:43 <Bike> Ugh, what's the damn word.
01:28:51 <Bike> For females reproducing w/o insemination
01:28:53 <shachaf> zzo38 should design some biological systems imo
01:28:55 <kmc> parthenogenesis
01:29:00 <Bike> yes. thank you.
01:29:03 <kmc> some reptiles can do it yeah
01:29:15 <kmc> if you poke a frog egg with a pin it will start to grow into a haploid frog (??)
01:29:27 <Bike> haha those experiments are the best.
01:29:35 <Bike> "how can we fuck up frog eggs... oh. oh wow"
01:29:46 <pikhq_> Sex determination is best described as "complex".
01:29:56 <Bike> Too bad the woman who started them died young :(
01:30:15 <Fiora> oh, parthanogenesis, that's the thing
01:30:40 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnemidophorus_neomexicanus oh woowwww
01:30:42 <Fiora> it's an all-female species
01:30:48 <Bike> imo, matriarchy
01:30:54 <Bike> ah yeah that's the lizard i was thinking of.
01:30:59 <Bike> I think they were on Bill Nye or something.
01:31:12 <pikhq_> But yeah. Many species have two distinct sexes simply because sexual reproduction works based off of combination of male and female gametes.
01:32:01 <kmc> the two mating types of yeast are conventionally known as "a" and "α"
01:32:29 <kmc> looks like ascomycetes typically have two mating types, while basidiomycetes can have thousands
01:32:31 <Bike> Oh huh, there's a word specifically for two-sex reproduction, "anisogamy"
01:32:39 <pikhq_> There's a protozoan with 7 sexes.
01:32:46 <Fiora> 7... sexes....? wow
01:32:58 <kmc> thousands beats 7
01:33:06 <Bike> there's also different kinds of anisogamy based on which cells are motile.
01:33:14 <Bike> kmc for president of mushroom sex
01:33:33 <pikhq_> It has two separate nuclei.
01:33:50 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basidiomycete#Smuts
01:33:51 <kmc> fungi do that too
01:33:55 <Fiora> there are basidiomycetes called "smuts"
01:34:13 <kmc> when the haploid mycelia meet, if the mating types are compatible, the nuclei spread out and you get cells with one from each
01:34:37 <kmc> and it's that organism which can produce spores and a fruiting body
01:34:40 <pikhq_> Ah, yeah, corn smut. :P
01:34:40 <kmc> wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee mushrooms
01:34:48 <Bike> Fiora: what i'm getting out of this is that i should refer to people without sex as "anamorphs" because everybody liked that series
01:34:50 <Fiora> kmc likes his mushrooms XD
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01:35:18 <Fiora> Bike: I think the only thing I remember about that book series was the cute falcon boy
01:35:25 <Fiora> and there were like, blue horses
01:35:28 <Fiora> with psychic powers
01:35:32 <Bike> i never read it.
01:35:47 <Bike> man sometimes i forget how fucking amazing zoology is
01:35:54 <Bike> Distinguishing characteristic: Accordion-like extensible thorax
01:36:32 <Bike> Umbrella-like scales at each end
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01:36:52 <Bike> wow that one's name means "corset bearer" this is a pretty sexy... oh yeah i remember these things now.
01:37:02 <Bike> I downloaded an obscure NOAA manual just so i could get high res art of them
01:37:16 <pikhq_> I enjoyed Animorphs, though I was young.
01:37:20 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pliciloricus_enigmatus.jpg i mean, can you blame me? imo, no.
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01:37:31 <pikhq_> Fiora: Yeah, the Andalites. Fucking weird blue horse-men.
01:37:44 <Bike> "hello, i'm an old one"
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01:38:47 <Bike> "Mouth surrounded by invertible tentacles" is going on my grindr profile, i think
01:38:58 <Fiora> til: bike has a grindr profile
01:39:17 <Bike> i have six, one for each appendage
01:40:16 <Bike> What, how are there only six phyla of fungi.
01:40:26 <Bike> fuck you taxonomists
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01:41:17 <Fiora> is it wrong if I just want to like watch you squee over biology and zoology stuff for hours
01:41:18 <Bike> Oh, an entire phylum is just for "uh i dunno".
01:41:33 <Bike> Fiora: it's pretty boring to see. i just sit on the computer flicking through tabs
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01:42:00 <Bike> maybe it would be entertaining if i like juggled at the same time.
01:42:06 <Fiora> it's fun watching you from here :<
01:42:12 <Bike> «The Fungi imperfecti or imperfect fungi, also known as Deuteromycota, are fungi which do not fit into the commonly established taxonomic classifications of fungi that are based on biological species concepts or morphological characteristics of sexual structures because their sexual form of reproduction has never been observed; hence the name "imperfect fungi." » nevermind, this rules
01:42:34 <Bike> i wanna be one of these when i grow up
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01:42:48 <pikhq_> Fiora: I spend a lot of time doing that.
01:42:54 <kmc> yeah sometimes they have observed the sexually reproducing phase and the asexual phase but they don't know it's the same species
01:42:58 <pikhq_> I date a biologist. :P
01:43:03 <kmc> costs a lot of money to sequence the genome of every random fungus you find
01:43:23 <Bike> "For example, the ubiquitous and industrially important mold, Aspergillus niger, has no known sexual cycle." wait. fro real
01:43:27 <kmc> I think fungi are kind of the neglected kingdom when it comes to research money
01:43:42 <Bike> that's literally mold. we don't know how mold reproduces???
01:44:14 <Bike> kmc: it's kind of funny when we did that with animals (not knowing they're different forms of the same organism)
01:45:23 <katla> wtf how is that not known
01:45:34 <Bike> "In the heyday of the opium trade, chandu opium, which was meant to be smoked, was made by long term fermentation of A. niger and other molds on raw opium." I...
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01:46:25 <Bike> katla: well we know they do asexual sporing.
01:47:31 <katla> how do you guys all know so much biology btw
01:47:42 <Bike> reading wikipedia articles constantly
01:47:54 * Fiora doesn't actually know any biology
01:48:34 <pikhq_> katla: Read Wikipedia, talk about neat things found from said reading with my girlfriend.
01:48:46 <Bike> obviously i need to work on the second part.
01:49:25 <pikhq_> I also have an amazing ability to shove random trivia in my head.
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01:49:52 <pikhq_> My coworkers are a little stunned that I can just talk in-depth about the archictectures of old game consoles.
01:49:59 <Fiora> I guess I absorb some things by talking with bike
01:50:04 <Fiora> or more like listening to him ramble about cool bio things
01:50:16 <Fiora> and I guess he probably absorbs tiny bits of my incomprehensible cpu nonsense or physics
01:50:29 <Bike> the shotgun slurry approach to learning
01:51:03 <pikhq_> Yup, that's me. Try to learn everything by gradually approaching mastery of all subjects simultaneously.
01:52:09 <Bike> i like how the isogamy article has sections (sexions) on biology and also anthropology
01:52:40 <Bike> i started typing "sex" when writing "sections" because of the conversation.
01:52:42 <Bike> i'm such a perv man
01:53:15 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Evolsex-dia2a.svg oh, cool graph.
01:53:20 <Bike> picture. thing.
01:53:33 <Fiora> bike really is a perv, gosh, he's probably undressing those arthropods with his eyes. gosh, what a creep!
01:53:57 <Bike> so, fruiting bodies, you come here often?
01:54:23 * pikhq_ is a definite pervosexual
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01:56:10 <Fiora> what does that even mean o_O
01:57:07 <Bike> stay away from me pikhq!! i have nematocysts and i'm not afraid to use them
01:57:20 <pikhq_> http://www.alessonislearned.com/index.php?comic=17 It means I read this.
01:57:41 <Bike> i still can't believe that updated again.
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02:50:06 <Sgeo> kmc, how's it working for pretty much the only web browser that exists, Mozilla 5.0?
02:51:37 <Sgeo> I'm sure there was a better way to make that joke
02:59:04 <kmc> i'm sure there was a not-incomprehensible way to make that joke
02:59:25 <Fiora> I heard shachaf is like, a total expert on being non-incomprehensible
03:00:27 <shachaf> Fiora: What, you're an intuitionist now?
03:00:57 <Fiora> oh. you're being incomprehensible
03:01:03 <shachaf> I guess kmc was the intuitionist here.
03:01:12 <shachaf> Why do you keep saying I'm incomprehensible?
03:01:36 <Fiora> e-elliott said he felt that way toob ut..... sorry
03:01:44 <Bike> do you like not see how that conversation works
03:02:07 <Bike> "[incomprehensible joke]" "Why do you keep saying I'm incomprehensible?"
03:03:05 <shachaf> Fiora: Intuitionistic logic is logic where "not (not x)" doesn't necessarily imply "x".
03:03:38 <shachaf> You said not-incomprehensible. I thought it was a joke. But it turns out to be kmc's joke.
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03:09:34 <kmc> it wasn't a joke, it was double negation for emphasis
03:09:53 <kmc> if i said "i'm sure there was a comprehensible way to make that joke" it wouldn't have made the point as strongly that Sgeo's joke was incomprehensible
03:11:05 <Sgeo> Was trying to make a joke about the ubiquity of Mozilla/5.0
03:11:05 <kmc> not-not-false enough
03:11:11 <kmc> Sgeo: in user agents?
03:11:25 <shachaf> Fiora: Am I actually more incomprehensible than other people in here?
03:11:28 <kmc> well I haven't started working for Mozilla yet
03:12:24 <Fiora> shachaf: I... sorry I guess it kind of feels like that sometime...
03:12:33 <Fiora> elliott told me not to worry because it was normal to get confused...
03:14:42 <shachaf> How do I ask you a question without you feeling accused (or whatever it is)?
03:14:48 <kmc> shachaf makes a lot of oblique jokes
03:14:59 <shachaf> Anyway, I suspect elliott was joking when he said that, though I can't say for sure.
03:15:14 <zzo38> There are other kind of logic too, other than intuitionistic logic.
03:15:31 <shachaf> like non-intuitionistic logic and non-non-intuitionistic logic
03:15:33 <Fiora> I thought he was trying to ocomfort me...
03:15:36 <Fiora> now I'm confused...
03:16:48 <shachaf> I think something like "don't worry, it's normal to get confused when shachaf says something" is a sort of friendly way of making fun of me... But maybe I'm the one who doesn't comprehend!
03:16:55 <zzo38> There is modal logic, too.
03:21:49 <kmc> can't live with 'em, can't dismantle their bodies for trace amounts of iron to make paperclips
03:22:41 <Fiora> differently-shaped-and-sized bags of mostly oxygen?
03:23:00 <Sgeo> People are up in arms about Dilbert
03:23:03 <kmc> mostly oxygen? I guess so, since we're mostly water
03:23:06 <Sgeo> The RSS feed no longer displays the comic
03:23:12 * Bike considers referring to cars as "bags of mostly steel"
03:23:16 <kmc> `addquote <Sgeo> People are up in arms about Dilbert
03:23:20 <HackEgo> 1062) <Sgeo> People are up in arms about Dilbert
03:23:21 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_the_human_body
03:23:27 <kmc> http://pied.nu/banned/the_Dilbert_Hole/
03:23:32 <Sgeo> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2013-06-25/
03:23:32 <kmc> uh nsfw i guess
03:23:33 <Fiora> we're apparentlyabout 65% oxygen by mass?
03:23:46 <Bike> atomically, i assume?
03:24:12 <Bike> also that makes me think of Guess Which Anime, >_>
03:24:14 <Fiora> huh. women have less water/oxygen than men
03:24:25 <kmc> so THAT'S how you can tell
03:24:37 <Bike> i have oxydar, man
03:24:50 <kmc> does this mean that a really thourough SRS involves oxygen supplements too
03:25:01 <Fiora> I... I'd guess it's just the difference in fat %
03:25:10 <kmc> that makes sense
03:25:14 <Fiora> and probably not anything else really
03:25:38 <kmc> is there a compose combo for that
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03:25:58 <kmc> oh that's fullwidth %
03:26:04 <shachaf> i just switch to japanese mode for fullwidth characters
03:26:13 <kmc> M-x weeaboo
03:26:27 <Bike> fullwidth characters are my waifu
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03:26:42 <Fiora> I thought your waifu was like. some strange fungus
03:26:45 <Bike> is that a halfwidth thousandth
03:27:03 <Bike> Fiora: LOVE KNOWS NO NUMBERS! Except if it's the euler-mascheroni constant which is also my waifu
03:27:21 <kmc> the first one is my name?
03:27:27 <kmc> and the second iS?
03:27:29 <shachaf> ideally they're both your name
03:27:34 <Bike> or the feigenbaum constants. either/or
03:27:53 <kmc> Kigan Meka~isuteru
03:28:17 <Bike> that's p. kawaii
03:28:22 <kmc> lexande has official arabic and cyrillic and chinese spellings of his name
03:28:28 <kmc> because various border officials asked for it
03:29:09 <Fiora> Bike: though apparently by #mm rules a waifu is something assigned to you by others
03:29:26 <Bike> luckily i can just say stupid shit and nobody objeccts
03:29:31 <shachaf> how am i the incomprehensible one hth
03:29:33 <Bike> Fiora: (don't tell him what #mm is)
03:29:53 <Bike> more public figures should have official transliterations
03:30:39 <kmc> i don't think lexande is a public figure
03:30:44 <kmc> also i should convince him to come back to this channel
03:30:50 <Bike> confession: i forget who lexande is?
03:30:57 <Bike> Alexander Rapp
03:31:00 <kmc> friend of mine since long time ago
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03:31:12 <Bike> kmc you wizard
03:31:18 <shachaf> lexande is the wizard here
03:31:32 <Bike> lexande: how do you spell 'lexande' in ge'ez
03:31:33 <shachaf> wizards' noses tingle when you talk about them
03:32:17 <kmc> is that so
03:32:44 <shachaf> For summoning you, I think.
03:32:54 <kmc> what if lexande has summoning sickness
03:33:06 <shachaf> Then you're not a very good wizard, clearly.
03:33:16 <kmc> i don't think that's how it works
03:33:17 <Bike> kmc's a great wizard, imo.
03:33:22 <kmc> zzo38 would know
03:33:25 <Bike> elliott: back me up on this.
03:33:58 <shachaf> oh this is a magic: the gathering thing
03:34:12 <lexande> anyway the transliterations of my name into cyrillic and arabic were chosen for me by russian and sudanese customs/immigration officials respectively
03:34:27 <Bike> you travel a lot?
03:34:46 <kmc> in b4 http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~arapp/map.html http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~arapp/citiesvisited.html
03:35:08 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/crypto/comments/1h1ru6/assuming_certificate_authorities_are_untrusted/caqc0lc
03:35:23 <Bike> That's pretty travelly.
03:37:15 <lexande> there tend to be pretty canonical transliterations of "Alexander" into most languages
03:37:29 <Bike> mm, it's super old, i guess.
03:37:32 <lexande> thanks to a certain ambitious macedonian
03:37:32 <kmc> iskandar al-akbar
03:37:33 <Bike> Also that one guy.
03:37:41 <lexande> i don't like the chinese one though
03:37:51 <lexande> because who ever heard of a four-character first name in chinese
03:38:10 <Bike> I've heard of almost no first names in Chinese, admittedly
03:38:34 <Bike> clearly they should have gone for a semantic translation, i bet "defender of man" is shorter
03:40:09 <lexande> the characters are something like, asia history mountain large
03:40:32 <mnoqy> thats a pretty good name
03:42:38 <lexande> but i figure i can get by with the last two, which also makes it a lot easier to write
03:44:35 <lexande> but i think i'm stuck with the surname 拉普 since i found a people's daily article referring to my father with that surname
03:46:50 <lexande> as for ge'ez, uh probably ለከሰነደረ or ለከሰነደ
03:57:58 <zzo38> I have put my own name into Japanese by translating "Aaron" normally but translating "Black" by the meaning instead.
03:58:43 <zzo38> (I have been told that probably the more proper meaning to use for translation is "blacksmith", but I just used "black" instead.)
03:59:00 <zzo38> Fiora: Yes, like that.
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05:06:12 <shachaf> someone transliterate my name to japanese please
05:07:14 <copumpkin> or シャチャフ but I don't think that would get pronounced right
05:17:26 <coppro> zzo38: is this you http://www.aaronblack.com/
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05:37:00 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Wed Jun 26 06:36:59
05:59:24 <zzo38> There are a few other people with the same name too
05:59:36 <zzo38> (Even if you look in Wikipedia you will see it)
06:00:39 <zzo38> Should there be a rule in Pokemon game that if if you use the attack to switch the item with an opponent, and one of them has some mail, that it should display the contents of the mail to the other player before the attack fails?
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07:05:46 <zzo38> If the probability of some event is 200%, and then after that probability is calculated you will toss a coin, and if it comes up heads then you will cancel it, then does that make the event certain?
07:06:14 <shachaf> What is a probability of 200%?
07:06:47 <zzo38> Twice as much as a probability of 100%, of course.
07:08:16 <zzo38> That is what it means!
07:09:00 <Bike> these are new and strange probability axioms, zzo.
07:09:52 <zzo38> They are new? I thought they are the same as the other one except that I wrote "200%" and so on.
07:11:42 <Bike> you can't have events with p > 1 under kolmogorov axioms.
07:12:03 <zzo38> Perhaps I didn't explain very well. This might be better: There is a device that has a 200% chance of functioning if it is activated. You will toss a fair coin, and if it comes up tails you will activate the device and if it is heads then you won't activate it. From these premises, is it certain that the device will function?
07:12:33 <Bike> seriously, i just see "200%" and stop reading, what does that mean.
07:14:00 <zzo38> Can you explain what a probability of something means in general rather than in specific?
07:16:33 <Bike> ok, well, the probability axioms go like this.
07:17:15 <Bike> first you have a set called the "sample space", which is stuff that can happen. you define a sigma-algebra on that, the "events", subsets of the sample space. and you have a probability measure : event -> [0,1]
07:18:36 <Bike> the first axiom is that the probability measure is always positive (implied by my type signature but w/e). the second is that P(the whole sample space) = 1. the third is that P(countable union of events) = sum P(each event in the union)
07:19:29 <Bike> this implies for instance that A subset B -> P(A) <= P(B), and along with the second axiom this makes "200% probability" incoherent.
07:19:31 <mnoqy> disjoint union right
07:19:35 <Bike> so, if you mean something else, you should explain that.
07:19:39 <Bike> disjoint union, yeah.
07:20:06 <zzo38> Yes, I can see how, but what you omit the first axiom and type signature?
07:20:53 <zzo38> Anyways, I think the first axiom is wrong even in ordinary probabilities because it could be zero which doesn't count as a positive number.
07:21:40 <mnoqy> it's "nonnegative", yes
07:22:14 <zzo38> Then you should write that, if that is what you mean!
07:22:21 <mnoqy> i didn't write it!! bike did!!
07:22:33 <zzo38> I don't mean you personally.
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08:25:36 <kmc> status: eating cheetos out of a bowl using chopsticks
08:27:44 <zzo38> Do you do that so you don't get dirty?
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15:35:46 <coppro> pikhq_: you just won, congrats
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16:46:30 <coppro> pikhq_: when are you getting married? :P
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17:30:23 <Bike> i don't know why i did the axiom thing. that was dumb and sucked. fyi.
17:33:50 <elliott> are you talking about the axiom CAS, or...
17:34:35 <Bike> no i just responded to zzo with quotation instead of asking him what the heck he meatn
17:37:12 <zzo38> It doesn't necessarily imply that the individual events are not more than one if you are using divergent series, though, I think.
17:37:45 <zzo38> (If you do it so that some collections cannot be separated from others)
17:39:36 <zzo38> Also, if you make up the probability of a random number 0 to 1, the total probability will still be 1 even though all of the individual number being exactly is 0, so it still doesn't work.
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17:57:27 <Bike> "Each of the linear spaces l_2, c_0, c, m, and R^\infty (in that order) is a proper subspace of the next one" well i think i have a new record for shitty math identifiers
18:03:52 <zzo38> If you want to make up a Famicom cartridge with expansion audio, I think that other than the standard chips included in NROM cartridges, only a AY-3-8910 is added; it will work if you connect it to the PPU address bus. You can even get bank switching if you do this, without needing any other logic for bank switching.
18:04:59 <zzo38> (However, you will not be able to change the music or the bank during rendering.)
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18:34:48 <itsy> hi elliott :-)
18:39:58 * itsy considers writing a worm to seek out lost files... Stuff that's disappeared from the net, but must be on someone's computer somewhere.
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18:50:27 <zzo38> If you write a report about what files you are looking for, that could also help a bit.
18:55:41 <kmc> big US Supreme Court rulings today in favor of gay marriage
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19:07:24 <Bike> also the texas abortion bill died, woo.
19:07:41 <itsy> Does anyone here use an FTP search engine? Which one?
19:08:16 <kmc> yeah, after a brief attempt to save it by brazen lying in front of hundreds of thousands of people
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19:09:26 <Bike> we have procedures, kmc. making someone stand and talk for 13 hours and then stopping time is perfectly reasonable
19:10:45 <itsy> AnotherTest: some old Core War stuff which was mentioned on Usenet about 20 years ago!
19:11:04 <Bike> geez. good luck with that.
19:11:41 <AnotherTest> itsy: have you checked the usenet archives?
19:12:01 <AnotherTest> or do you have the message, just not the files
19:12:33 <itsy> AnotherTest: I've just got the messages, which contain an ftp link (now broken).
19:12:44 <Bike> btw new band name: Intrinsically Rhythmogenic Modules
19:13:04 <itsy> By the way, is there a way to download an entire Usenet group? All messages dating back 20+ years? :-)
19:14:35 <itsy> They're on Google. But I want them here :-)
19:14:53 <AnotherTest> well, write a script to download stuff from google
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19:17:04 <itsy> AnotherTest: one is ftp:soda.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar/ incoming/optimapc.exe
19:19:34 <AnotherTest> http://web.archive.org/web/19980110070358/http://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/
19:19:55 <AnotherTest> you might need to pick a later date though
19:21:40 <Bike> http://www.pnas.org/content/110/26/10465.full lol.
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19:23:23 <itsy> Tried contacting first :-) No luck. I didn't realise wayback archived ftp.
19:23:44 <AnotherTest> that's the web archive of their own ftp :)
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20:13:53 <oerjan> *sigh* turns out screen ruins the use of the pgup/pgdn keys on my numpad (turning them into 9 and 3 keys regardless of my laptop's general setting), which are of course the most sanely placed versions on this keyboard.
20:15:00 <oerjan> (that's screen on debian started remotely via putty on windows, fwiw)
20:17:57 <oerjan> ooh that's even installed
20:19:23 <coppro> oerjan: I stopped at "ruins" since that statement is always true
20:19:49 <oerjan> dtach is _not_ installed yet though...
20:20:45 <elliott> dtach is great because it doesn't do anything.
20:20:50 <elliott> I know whatever terminal problem I have it's not dtach's fault.
20:21:00 <elliott> oerjan: btw, that sounds like a putty misconfiguration
20:21:04 <elliott> check you don't have "nethack mode" or whatever on
20:21:11 <elliott> or maybe I'm misremembering
20:21:24 <Lumpio-> I... I don't think screen even knows about your numpads and whatnot
20:21:45 <oerjan> elliott: it's set at "Normal" also pgdn/pgup works fine if _not_ using screen.
20:21:48 <Lumpio-> Probably something wrong with your terminal emulator.
20:22:16 <oerjan> Lumpio-: screen always emulates vt100, afaiu
20:22:49 <Lumpio-> Well I don't see any difference with pageup/down between screen and not screen
20:22:50 <coppro> oerjan: you can change a config setting to make it poorly emulate something else
20:22:52 <oerjan> and TERM=xterm outside it...
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20:23:03 <coppro> instead of poorly emulating vt100
20:23:35 <oerjan> Lumpio-: btw the _other_ pgup/pgdn keys on top of the keyboard which are hard to reach, work fine.
20:24:04 <Lumpio-> yes I tried both actual pagedown and numpad pagedown
20:24:08 <Lumpio-> No difference whatsoever on my setup.
20:24:19 <shachaf> oerjan: screen's unicode support is broken hth
20:24:44 <oerjan> shachaf: OKAY (i did use the -U option fwiw)
20:25:08 <shachaf> oerjan: (For 4-byte sequences, i.e. anything not in the BMP.)
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20:46:00 <itsy> "Dear xxxx, I was just wondering if you still have a copy of xxxx.zip which you uploaded 22 years ago? Thanks" <- Worth a try :-) Luckily I found a current email address.
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20:58:49 <itsy> Does anyone know what the first 2 dimensional programming language was?
20:59:31 <Taneb> I seem to recall one before befunge
20:59:48 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Biota
21:02:50 <itsy> Thanks, that was the one I was looking for. There were a couple of other before Befunge too.
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21:24:53 <oerjan> turns out there was a putty option too
21:25:09 <HackEgo> bresilsalumbizim: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:25:59 <Bike> everything at once
21:27:35 <oerjan> although admittedly it would also be nice if the wireless were stable enough that putty didn't disconnect all the time.
21:27:47 <Bike> kmc: more on that thing i linked you a billion years ago: http://storify.com/camp2013/learning-learning-learning "Led a great session on investigation for #ttcCamp13 this morning at this rate the participants will have brought down a government by Friday"
21:28:29 <Lumpio-> Has some intelligence for laggy connections + most importantly survives disconnects
21:29:16 <oerjan> Lumpio-: i'm on windows 8 hth
21:29:21 <Bike> what the fuck is what
21:29:44 <Lumpio-> oerjan: I think you can get LInux or something free from the internet
21:29:48 <Lumpio-> hold on I'll find a download link
21:29:54 <Bike> lots of things are fuck
21:32:31 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
21:33:17 <oerjan> Lumpio-: i am recently quite convinced that i am sufficiently cursed that changing to linux will only bring me a different but equally obnoxious set of annoyances.
21:33:28 <oerjan> bresilsalumbizim: *guys hth
21:33:45 <oerjan> (although yes, there are _some_ gays here too.)
21:34:44 <Bike> i am to a computer.
21:36:29 <oerjan> i don't think we get many parsons here
21:37:54 <Lumpio-> I dunno about parsons but I could probably hook you up with some parsley
21:37:56 <Lumpio-> http://i.imgur.com/ZFfRqsz.jpg
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21:40:04 <oerjan> you could spread it on food hth
21:40:29 <Lumpio-> Maybe mix it up with some lard
21:41:03 <oerjan> bresilsalumbizim: hey eat up your greens
21:41:35 <elliott> oerjan: you should op kmc so he can ban this guy.
21:41:59 <Bike> oerjan: you should op elliott so he can op kmc so he can ban this guy
21:42:06 <oerjan> elliott: what, already?
21:42:17 <oerjan> Bike: sounds like a plan.
21:42:29 <elliott> oerjan: well have you noticed he's joined the channel and insulted people a lot and not said anything on-topic, hth.
21:43:01 <oerjan> elliott: well i guess technically you are correct, as always
21:43:08 <oerjan> (except with some maths)
21:44:16 <oerjan> bresilsalumbizim: are you really from burundi
21:44:42 <oerjan> not many from africa here
21:44:58 <Bike> we have a south african don't we
21:45:14 <oerjan> yes, but he's not here very often
21:46:13 <oerjan> i think he passed by a couple weeks ago
21:46:38 <oerjan> mostly europe and north america
21:47:27 <elliott> oerjan: I think you mean mostly Helsinki and Hexham
21:47:42 <Taneb> Hey, Hexham's in Europe
21:47:51 <Taneb> And I presume Helsinki is in North America
21:48:02 <elliott> um... I have bad news about Finland for you, Taneb.
21:48:37 <itsy> Did helsinki.fi just move it's user pages?
21:50:24 <oerjan> well it is pretty well known that finland is close to russia, and far from japan
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22:00:33 <oerjan> elliott: see no need for bans hth
22:01:08 <elliott> oerjan: now about that semen_dickman guy in the logs...
22:02:39 <oerjan> nanana i cant hear you
22:02:58 <Bike> "US got NSA leaker Edward Snowden's middle name wrong, says Hong Kong"
22:03:18 <shachaf> oerjan: well finland is close to russia and russia is close to japan, so finland can't be that far off
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22:03:46 <oerjan> shachaf: russia is not transitive hth
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22:04:41 <shachaf> oerjan: what about the trans-siberian railway
22:05:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that doesn't go to japan though
22:05:38 * lexande hilights on transit and trains
22:05:55 <Bike> wow you really are a kmcfrien
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22:08:50 <pikhq_> *Goodness* this DOMA strikedown makes things interesting/confusing.
22:09:36 <pikhq_> It is now possible to be married on a federal level but not a state level.
22:09:55 <oerjan> ...it got turned upside down? :P
22:10:11 <Bike> gay marriage: the exact opposite of pot
22:10:35 <Fiora> is marriage done on a federal level? I thought it was handled by states, and the law was about whether or not the federal government acknowledged it
22:10:40 <Bike> it's kinda funny they didn't touch section 2 even though it looks like the opposite of article iv of the constitution
22:10:41 <Fiora> and there's the whole full faith and credit thing (?)
22:11:16 <pikhq_> Fiora: In this case, the fed. would acknowledge marriage done in any state.
22:11:27 <pikhq_> But your state of residence might *not* acknowledge it.
22:11:41 <pikhq_> So, from a federal POV you are married.
22:11:46 <pikhq_> But not from your state's.
22:11:48 <Fiora> so like, if someone got married in california, some other state is legally allowed to not acknowledge it?
22:11:57 <Bike> yeah, that's what section 2 does.
22:12:11 <Fiora> isn't that... a violation of article 4 section 1? @_@
22:12:17 <Bike> With... some oddities, like Oklahoma being forced to put an adoptive gay couple on a kid's birth certificate
22:12:25 <Bike> because yeah it's pretty blatantly unconstitutional
22:12:40 <Fiora> what's with the "marriage tourism" thing then, where people visit another state to get married, how does that work
22:13:21 <pikhq_> Fiora: People feel as though going through the "marriage" thing officializes the relationship.
22:13:58 <Bike> and it probably will once the stupid thing dies, but.
22:14:27 <Fiora> huh it says in some places that they just outright struck the law, but some people are saying only section 3...?
22:14:32 <pikhq_> Bike: I think they could sue for back taxes. :P
22:14:37 <pikhq_> Fiora: It was only section 3.
22:14:51 <pikhq_> Section 2 was simply not affected by this case.
22:14:58 <pikhq_> (it was literally not at issue ever)
22:15:23 <pikhq_> It'll probably get contested soon, what with being a *blatant* violation of full faith and credit.
22:15:37 <Bike> supremecourt.gov doesn't work at all w/o www :(
22:15:58 <Bike> anyway US v. windsor, right? http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdf
22:16:18 <Fiora> wikipedia said "Section 2, which allows states to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages performed in states where such marriage is legal, was not at issue in the Windsor case but the entire Defense of Marriage Act was deemed unconstitutional" but I don't know
22:16:22 <Bike> if anyone wants to see it themselves (i already read a supreme court decision this month, that's enough)
22:16:31 <Bike> Fiora: i saw that too but it looked like a shitty edit.
22:16:34 <Bike> i mean, you know. wikipedia.
22:16:54 <Bike> Anyway the decision's there if you want to find out for real.
22:18:37 <pikhq_> It says "Section 2 was not at issue". But it also says "DOMA is unconstitutional."
22:20:23 <Bike> maybe i should read it just to get infuriated at whatever scalia's dissent is (no)
22:23:15 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/scalia-thomas-roberts-alito-suddenly-realize-they,32972/
22:23:20 <elliott> hey can someone join #Sup3rSa1y4n, i hear from #freenode that it auto-klines you.
22:23:33 <elliott> note: I disclaim responsibility
22:24:54 <Bike> https://twitter.com/BryanJFischer/status/350011942242500609 considering following this guy.
22:26:08 <Fiora> no chemicals! all natural
22:26:12 <Bike> natural marriage more like anti-nazi 5ever marriage
22:28:23 <oerjan> oops out of free onions
22:29:49 <ion> Chemicals are so horrible. I found out they have added DHMO to our food.
22:31:44 <kmc> pikhq_: doesn't the full faith and credit clause say that Congress can regulate how full faith and credit is to be applied?
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22:32:30 <kmc> "the legislature shall, by general laws, prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings, shall be proved, and the effect which judgments, obtained in one state, shall have in another."
22:32:45 <kmc> er that's a draft version, the final is "And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof."
22:34:16 -!- itsy has left.
22:34:22 <pikhq_> That states that Congress may regulate how the acts of other states shall be demonstrated.
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22:34:42 <pikhq_> It does not give Congress any way to *prevent* the application.
22:35:37 <pikhq_> Which is to say, Congress may regulate marriage certificates. The forms themselves.
22:36:02 <kmc> this has been ruled in a previous court case?
22:37:05 <pikhq_> This was the basis on which interracial marriage was legalized.
22:38:10 <Bike> ? was there a DOMA analogue?
22:38:50 <TeruFSX> there was never an anti-interracial-marriage DOMA
22:39:09 <TeruFSX> i think interracial marriages were always recognized where they were legal
22:39:15 <elliott> whoa, I just realised who TeruFSX is.
22:42:24 <Bike> Oh man. The reason HK refused to extradite Snowden was because they got his middle name wrong (and one other thing, but)
22:42:31 <Bike> they = the US, I mean
22:42:58 <ion> bike: That’s hilarious.
22:43:15 <Bike> comments are good right here
22:43:35 <Bike> Someone in the US government was intentionally sabotagin the extradition attempt. The empire is imploding from the inside.
22:43:36 <Fiora> Bike: the sass in their refusal was the best thing
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23:15:11 <ion> http://heh.fi/tmp/1007.png
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23:40:46 <Sgeo> 2GB RAM. Running Eclipse and at least one other Java-based application from cygwin
23:40:57 <Sgeo> Ctrl-C-ing TOOK A MINUTE OR TWO
23:41:05 <Sgeo> Ctrl-C SHOULD NEVER TAKE THAT LONG
23:50:32 <Sgeo> How did I ever survive on 512 MB when I was younge?
23:50:55 <kmc> software was simpler
23:51:11 <pikhq_> And designed with 512 MiB in mind.
23:53:51 <Fiora> it's kind of interesting to see how like, game memory usages seem to have stopped growing at around ~2GB for the past few years
23:53:59 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/register-number-one,32928/
23:54:03 <Fiora> because if they went beyond that they'd have to drop 32-bit support, I think
23:54:05 <Sgeo> A neutral character in a Kelly comic???
23:54:17 <kmc> when RAM is not as scarce, you can develop programs faster, make them less buggy and more secure, and more people can help
23:54:36 <kmc> seems a reasonable tradeoff for buying $15 more of RAM imo
23:55:05 <kmc> a lot of people cry "software bloat" but that's usually an arrogant, lazy non-explanation
23:56:17 <Fiora> I'm guessing with games a lot of it is taking advantage of the extra memory to store textures or the like, and keeping track of a really big world state
23:56:31 <Sgeo> Eclipse and Tomcat servlets are not games
23:57:10 <kmc> Sgeo: the only winning move is not to play
23:57:25 <kmc> maybe it's because a lot of games are cross-platform and the Xbox 360 specs have been the same since 2005
23:57:30 <kmc> it only has 512 MB of RAM (!)
23:57:45 <Fiora> I don't think I've played many games that are console ports recently
23:57:50 <Sgeo> Tried using NetBeans. At least got an IDE that lagged only at sensible times
23:57:54 <Fiora> well. like. I have but I've played them on consoles <.<
23:58:05 <Sgeo> Ctrl-C was still hell though
23:58:29 <Fiora> (the real reason we need lots of RAM though is so I can run ECM factoring on tswett's number)
23:58:38 <Bike> i think sixty seconds to end a program being hell is a bit overblown, although maybe i'm saying that because i'm looking at a picture of a kid with his skull ripped up.
23:59:22 <pikhq_> The PS3 has similar amounts of RAM.
23:59:40 <Bike> elliott: huh what
23:59:51 <elliott> Bike: sixty seconds to end a program is just the first circle.
23:59:58 <tswett> Fiora: here, I'll make it easier for you.
00:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> it's kind of interesting to see how like, game memory usages seem to have stopped growing at around ~2GB for the past few years
00:00:10 <Sgeo> When you're used to a development cycle of constantly trying the program, seeing it work or not work, fixing and restarting, it could be annoying
00:00:14 <tswett> One of the factors begins with 645041.
00:00:34 <tswett> Also, at least one of the factors ends with 1, 3, 7, or 9.
00:00:55 <tswett> HEY HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT WAS MY NUMBER
00:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (i can't say it's entirely a bad thing, i've heard stories about pc gaming in the early 2000s)
00:01:34 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: yeah but like, I'm thinking of PC games mostly and I notice they all run 32-bit binaries <.<
00:01:37 <Fiora> and cap out at 2GB or so
00:01:56 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:02:00 <Fiora> ... does... does knowing the first digits of a factor actually help any factoring algorithms?
00:02:27 <Bike> "the best algorithm"
00:02:36 <Fiora> I'm pretty sure there's no small prime factors though
00:02:42 <Fiora> I mean, after running this much ECM on it
00:02:58 <tswett> I would advise you not to try to factor it.
00:03:22 <tswett> Because it's extremely unlikely to work, if I've done my homework correctly.
00:03:28 <tswett> I guess I might have done my homework incorrectly.
00:03:33 <Fiora> that's what the other 7 cores doing the general number field sieve are for!
00:03:42 <tswett> The number you're trying to factor is 35 844 088 ... 908 841, right?
00:03:45 <Bike> eighth core is otome games
00:03:59 <elliott> Bike: is eighth, like, a helpful eight
00:04:19 <tswett> If you wish to learn what the factors are, I suggest bribing me.
00:04:22 <Fiora> ECM says it'll take about 8000 curves to catch an 80-digit factor, though I'm guessing it's the worst case and they're both 100 digits
00:04:31 <elliott> wow that's actually how you spell eighth. weird
00:05:06 <ion> How did you think it’s spelled?
00:05:09 <tswett> Yup, looks like they're both 100 digits.
00:05:27 <Fiora> did you generate them or something with like a probable prime thing?
00:05:41 <elliott> Fiora is going to be driven by obsession to factoring them and will accidentally break all standard encryption algorithms in the process
00:05:48 <Fiora> geez I'm just playing around -_-
00:05:50 <tswett> There's some large prime number generator online.
00:05:53 <Bike> Fiora: how long does it take to factor 8616460799
00:05:53 <Fiora> I have no idea how the actual math works
00:06:00 <elliott> that's why it'll be an accident!
00:06:26 <Bike> fiora driven by obsession to understand what all this type theory crap is, accidentally proves ZFC inconsistent
00:06:31 <tswett> Then I used some ECM applet to test whether or not one of them was prime.
00:06:33 <Fiora> I'm not that good okay ._.
00:06:40 <tswett> It said that yes, it's prime.
00:06:48 <tswett> Then I tried to test the other one, but it wouldn't work.
00:06:51 <Fiora> Bike: I think using gnfs to factor that would be like using a nuclear weapon to sterilize a needle
00:07:22 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> Fiora: how long does it take to factor 8616460799 <Fiora> Bike: I think using gnfs to factor that would be like using a nuclear weapon to sterilize a needle
00:07:26 <Bike> yea you'll probably have to use millicycles as your unit
00:07:27 <HackEgo> 1063) <Bike> Fiora: how long does it take to factor 8616460799 <Fiora> Bike: I think using gnfs to factor that would be like using a nuclear weapon to sterilize a needle
00:07:39 <Bike> also now i want to sterilize a needle like that
00:07:42 <Fiora> I think the constant factor in gnfs is atrociously awfully terribly bad
00:07:45 <Bike> i mean. standard procedure is already alcohol fire
00:08:17 <Bike> (you all know The 8616460799 Story i hope)
00:08:35 <tswett> The 8616460799 Story, hth.
00:08:38 <tswett> Weren't you listening?
00:09:34 <Bike> "This became known as Jevons' Number and was factored by Derrick Norman Lehmer in 1903[13] and later on a pocket calculator by Solomon W. Golomb.[14]" hah.
00:09:44 <elliott> did he tell people to fuck off if they asked what the factors are
00:09:48 <elliott> "no. I'm taking this to the grave"
00:09:57 <Fiora> ... lehmer. golomb
00:10:04 <oerjan> <tswett> Trial division. <-- i think it can also help that algorithm i vaguely recall based on x^2 - y^2 = (x+y)(x-y)
00:10:05 <Fiora> is that... Lucas-Lehmer Lehmer? and Golomb code Golomb?
00:10:22 <oerjan> (which is particularly good when the factors are _close_)
00:10:57 <Bike> Fiora: golomb yes, lehmer no
00:11:10 <elliott> oh, that's the guy who wrote the coal thing.
00:11:11 <Bike> the lehmer you're thinking of is the son of the lehmer here.
00:11:20 -!- dvorakbot has joined.
00:11:24 <Bike> 1903 was a long time ago, dude!
00:11:32 <Bike> like, twenty years at least
00:11:40 <Bike> Oh, that's a nice feature.
00:11:57 <tswett> Fiora: no it's Lucas–Lehmer hth
00:12:00 <elliott> also invented economics or whatever.
00:12:23 <Bike> economics more like stupidomics
00:12:33 <tswett> Wait. "Published factorizations include those by Lehmer (1903) and Golomb (1996)." So how many different published factorizations are there?
00:12:38 <Bike> is the coal thing known elliott
00:12:46 <Bike> tswett: i think it kind of loses its novelty after a while.
00:12:55 <tswett> I can think of eight ways of factoring it into integers alone!
00:12:57 <Bike> tswett: It's also "published" in taocp2, though.
00:13:18 <Bike> people sometimes use it as an example now, because jevons was kind of amusingly wrong.
00:13:33 <tswett> So how can you factor 8616460799 using a pocket calculator?
00:13:57 <Bike> pretty easy on a TI.
00:14:02 <elliott> Bike: the coal thing, you know.
00:14:05 <Bike> Žerovnik, J. "The RSA Cryptosystem in 1873." Obzornik Mat. Fiz. 43, 116-118, 1996. <-- i think i have to check this one out.
00:14:08 <tswett> How about on an EL-5806S?
00:14:11 <Bike> elliott: well i mean is it like well known.
00:14:15 <Bike> tswett: i hope that's an asteroid
00:14:23 <elliott> Bike: well I know about it. I read the Wikipedia article once
00:14:30 <tswett> Yes, I use an asteroid as a pocket calculator.
00:15:10 <Bike> @google "The Coal Question"
00:15:10 <Fiora> tswett: isn't lucas-lehmer only for mersenne primes though?
00:15:11 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coal_Question
00:15:11 <lambdabot> Title: The Coal Question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:15:29 <dvorakbot> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O (ꙮ)
00:15:36 <Fiora> and it's a primarily test, not a factoring thing, I thought...
00:15:37 <kmc> hi dvorakbot
00:15:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he was all like "WHOA, GUYS, peak oil" in the 1800s
00:15:55 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas%E2%80%93Lehmer_primality_test ?
00:16:28 <kmc> > text "$u $"
00:16:35 <tswett> dvorakbot: come on, you were supposed to respond to that.
00:16:37 <kmc> > text "hi dvorakbot"
00:17:02 <tswett> Most of the commands can only occur at the beginning of a line.
00:17:08 <tswett> Lemme look for exceptions.
00:17:30 <tswett> > text "dvorakbot, help"
00:17:43 <dvorakbot> tswett: Hi, I'm a bot. Say ".commands" to me in private for a list of my commands, or see http://inamidst.com/phenny/ for more general details. My owner is tswett.
00:18:14 <tswett> Uh, that ought to be working.
00:18:32 <Bike> elliott: http://papers.snaffbox.org/php/main/index.php you should tell me if this sucks. thx in advance
00:18:47 <dvorakbot> tswett: Sorry, didn't understand the time spec.
00:19:20 <elliott> Bike: looks a bit unpolished
00:19:37 <dvorakbot> tswett: Sorry, didn't understand the time spec.
00:19:43 <tswett> Not sure what that's supposed to do.
00:19:52 <dvorakbot> most used commands: u (3), beats (2), at (2), help (1), hello (1), commands (1)
00:20:00 <kmc> $u fuck yeah
00:20:00 <dvorakbot> kmc: Sorry, no results for 'fuck yeah'.
00:20:06 <tswett> Congrats on being a power user.
00:20:16 <tswett> Also, lemme turn on the Dvorak commands.
00:20:17 <dvorakbot> U+01DF LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS AND MACRON (ǟ)
00:20:24 -!- dvorakbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:45 <tswett> dvorakbot is dead, never to return.
00:21:00 <Bike> this paper apparently doesn't exist
00:21:02 <tswett> Let us celebrate the life of him/her/it/em.
00:21:07 -!- dvorakbot has joined.
00:21:16 <tswett> dvorakbot, you were always such a good friend to us.
00:22:07 <tswett> Hey, who wants to be a card?
00:22:27 <tswett> Ooh, I wonder what $val and $ngc do.
00:22:44 <tswett> $val http://en.wikipedia.org/
00:22:45 <dvorakbot> tswett: http://en.wikipedia.org/ is Abort
00:23:46 <Bike> $val mother of monsters
00:23:54 <tswett> kmc: congratulations, you're Card 1.
00:23:59 <Bike> $val google.com
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00:24:42 <dvorakbot> "Thu, 27 Jun 2013 00:24:41 GMT" - tycho.usno.navy.mil
00:25:25 <tswett> Don't have too much fun.
00:25:41 <tswett> Unless you're in #dvorak-game.
00:25:46 <ion> $val elliott
00:25:54 <ion> elliott: FYI, HTH.
00:26:59 <dvorakbot> oerjan: http://oerjan.nvg.org is Invalid (1 error)
00:27:05 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
00:30:01 <kmc> what is this dvorak game
00:30:04 <kmc> and what's the only winning move
00:30:59 <ion> Not to play?
00:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> they really were great at writing meaningless political bullshit
00:33:50 <elliott> kmc: the only winning move is AOEUIDHTNS
00:33:51 <kmc> season 2 of Veep just ended
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00:55:15 <kmc> can't compare, but it's very good
00:55:25 <kmc> i mean it's hard to compare the two
00:55:52 <Bike> how do they compare to yes minister
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01:41:16 <Fiora> http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/seo-email/ oh geez XD
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01:46:07 <shachaf> Fiora: Google could use some SEO!
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01:46:09 <shachaf> http://www.bing.com/search?q=search+engine
01:47:01 -!- elliott_1 has changed nick to elliott.
01:47:04 <shachaf> Wow, not even on the front page of https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=search+engine
01:47:10 <oerjan> elliott_1: who are you and what have you done... darn
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01:50:26 <elliott> lambdabot already reconnected.
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01:53:20 <oerjan> slithering through the channels
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02:14:32 <Bike> http://blog.wolfram.com/2013/06/26/is-there-any-point-to-the-12-times-table/ this is cool + totally unnecessary
02:15:47 <elliott> I can't do mental multiplication at all
02:16:58 <shachaf> elliott: i bet you learned the × table all the way to 2!!
02:17:12 <shachaf> (Take that, factorial jokesters.)
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02:51:34 <myndzi> any of you guys possibly know of a mathematical study of tower defense type games?
02:52:03 <Bike> in what respect
02:53:05 <myndzi> there is a maximum amount of damage you are capable of inflicting at any point
02:53:15 <myndzi> a maximum amount of resources you are able to have acquired
02:55:21 <Bike> how about "Mathematical methods of organizing and planning production", kantorovich
02:59:48 <myndzi> interesting, will have to read in more depth
02:59:56 <Bike> http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/quickfix/1/9/4/188194.jpg?v=2 dark secrets of the NSA
03:25:51 <Bike> http://preview.reuters.com/2013/6/12/exclusive-snowden-as-a-teen-online-anime-and-1 i'm gonna die.
03:28:25 <elliott> Reuters viewed the website on Tuesday and contacted former company employees for comment. On Wednesday, the website had been taken down.
03:29:16 <Fiora> presidential elections in ~20 years will be pretty amazing
03:29:27 <Fiora> all the candidates will have embarrassed themselves terribly on like, facebook and stuff as kids
03:29:35 <Fiora> they might even have, like, a deviantart
03:29:41 <Fiora> where they drew sonic fanart
03:30:35 <Bike> gotta go fast, a slogan for the future
03:32:46 <Fiora> "I stand by my motto today, as I did then"
03:32:54 <Fiora> "we gotta go fast, towards the future."
03:34:46 <Bike> "and thirdly, tifa would TOTALLY do aeris. no further questions"
03:53:11 <Sgeo> http://www.markturner.net/2010/05/09/the-compelled-certificate-creation-attack/ this attack was worth people writing a paper about it?
03:53:53 <Sgeo> Oh "We reveal alarming ev-
03:53:54 <Sgeo> idence that suggests that this attack is in ac-
03:57:25 <Sgeo> "Thus, any web browser that depends upon Mi-
03:57:25 <Sgeo> crosoft's Trusted Root Store (such as Internet Ex-
03:57:25 <Sgeo> plorer, Chrome and Safari for Windows) ultimately
03:57:25 <Sgeo> trusts 264 dierent CAs to issue certicates without
03:57:25 <Sgeo> warning, although only a handful of them are listed
03:57:25 <Sgeo> in the operating system's user interface."
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05:14:28 <kmc> https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1011817_10100526803867865_340272139_n.jpg SF city hall
05:14:38 <shachaf> well there may be "long term crises""" going on but we'll see about that
05:14:55 <shachaf> city hall more like pretty hall
05:20:42 <fizzie> City hall more like Crayola box hall.
05:27:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Park new england is weird
05:27:56 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Park shachaf is weird
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05:45:56 <lexande> Bike: new jersey \not\in new england
05:49:54 <kmc> Action Park Shachaf
05:52:49 <kmc> Bike: wht about it
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06:36:43 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
06:54:15 <kmc> Bike: the Tank Ride sounds fucking awesome though
06:59:15 <kmc> "Employees at the park used to like eating at a nearby snack bar with a good view of [Surf Hill], since it was almost guaranteed that they could see some serious injuries, lost bikini tops, or both"
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07:27:27 <shachaf> mnoqy: how's mac lane going
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07:51:54 <HackEgo> Freenode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:11:56 <Taneb> Help I was just sarcastic on Facebook and now I feel bad
13:14:04 <shachaf> Taneb: stop feeling bad hth
13:14:47 <shachaf> (if you don't pay you'll feel bad about not paying me)
13:15:22 <Taneb> I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how not bad I feel
13:15:50 <shachaf> looks like i overdid it "oops"
13:21:37 <shachaf> Taneb: How's `olist going?
13:21:54 <shachaf> Taneb: Does thread count matter?
13:51:04 <Taneb> Dear god I have 14 channels on autojoin on this server alon!
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13:58:18 <elliott> wtf I only have 11 channels
14:04:28 <Taneb> ##fiora, #0x10c-dev, #0x10c-galaxy, #agda, #esoteric, #esoteric-minecraft, #happs, #haskell, #haskell-lens, #haskell-web, #pbsideachannel, #snapframework, #yesod
14:06:16 <shachaf> Taneb: You should turn channel hiding off!
14:08:19 <elliott> why the hell are you in #happs
14:08:27 <shachaf> Taneb: Uh, maybe it's mode -i?
14:08:33 <elliott> correction why the hell are you in half of those
14:08:46 <Taneb> elliott, when I am bored I like to throw Haskell web frameworks at eachother
14:09:04 <Taneb> That accounts for 4
14:16:04 <shachaf> Now everyone can see your full channel list.
14:16:11 <shachaf> One day you'll grow up to be ski.
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15:04:03 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.isg.rhul.ac.uk/tls/biases.pdf http://www.isg.rhul.ac.uk/tls/ geez RC4 keeps getting new attacks
15:05:15 <Bike> i uh don't even know what that is
15:05:28 <Fiora> the stream cipher! like the one in WEP and stuff that everyone uses
15:05:44 <Fiora> the one that's really fast and isn't very good
15:06:08 <Fiora> and like now they finally have an attack that works on RC4 in general
15:06:49 <Fiora> like with WEP it was a problem with badly chosen IVs, not RC4 itself
15:07:31 <Fiora> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRIME_(security_exploit) <-- ooh. this one is fun too
15:07:50 <Fiora> taking advantage of data compression and chosen-plaintexts to leak information about the information in the rest of the packet
15:08:01 <Fiora> because the data compression tells you "what size is the packet after it gets compressed"
15:08:17 <Bike> not just 'crime', 'CRIME'
15:09:22 <Fiora> I love the acronyms they make XD
15:09:42 <Fiora> "Why are the attacks called "Lucky Thirteen"?
15:09:46 <Fiora> In Western culture, 13 is considered an unlucky number. However, the fact that the TLS MAC calculation includes 13 bytes of header information (5 bytes of TLS header plus 8 bytes of TLS sequence number)
15:09:50 <Fiora> is, in part, what makes the attacks possible. So, in the context of our attacks, 13 is lucky - from the attacker's perspective at least. This is what passes for humour amongst cryptographers."
15:11:22 <Bike> i'm kind of distracted atm because i found out they can make transparent mouse brains now
15:11:34 <Fiora> transparent... mouse... brains @_@
15:11:57 <Bike> it involves removing all the fat from all the cells and replacing it with a hydrogel mesh
15:12:02 <Bike> apparently that's a thing we can do?!
15:12:27 <Fiora> and that... won't... kill it?
15:13:30 <Bike> oh, no, i'm pretty sure it's dead. but you don't need to slice it up and also it looks sci-fi as hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBeuxiAif9E
15:13:57 <Bike> you can trace individual neural projections and stuff
15:14:19 <Bike> the same guy invented optogenetics, so, i hope he gets his nobel soon
15:14:37 <Fiora> awww. transparent living mouse brains would have been a cool thing
15:15:30 <Bike> it's still really weird seeing like a photo of a transparent mouse brain
15:15:39 <Bike> since you can... see through it
15:16:19 <Bike> «Dr. Chung said the hydrogel forms a kind of mesh that permeates the brain and connects to most of the molecules, but not to the lipids, which include fats and some other substances. The brain is then put in a soapy solution and an electric current is applied, which drives the solution through the brain, washing out the lipids. Once they are out, the brain is transparent, and its biochemistry is intact, so it may be infused with chemicals, lik
15:16:56 <Bike> «On his laboratory bench, he said, “I have a transparent liver, lungs and heart.”» possibly a wizard?
15:16:56 <mnoqy> cuts off at "infused with chemicals, lik"
15:17:14 <Bike> Once they are out, the brain is transparent, and its biochemistry is intact, so it may be infused with chemicals, like antibody molecules that also have a dye attached, that show fine details of its structure and previous activity.
15:22:05 <Fiora> "infused with chemicals" sounds like some strange alternate-reality marketing copy
15:22:47 <Fiora> infused with a variety of powerful chemicals, Shampoo Tox will make your hair softer, silkier, and atomized"
15:28:26 <fizzie> Infused with a variety of powerful magicks.
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18:04:36 <kmc> http://www.bestdesigntuts.com/top-php-misconceptions-to-avoid
18:05:03 <kmc> 'But why would you want it to be secure by default, why not write a secure code for it... If you compare it with .NET which helps you with security by default, PHP misses out, but if you are a skilled programmer, you don’t really need “help” with security'
18:08:03 <mnoqy> (????????????what)
18:10:15 <elliott> kmc you are almost as much of a masochist as me
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18:18:19 <kmc> this is double funny because if you code in C to show how h4rdc0re you are, it will at least impress people
18:18:29 <kmc> but if you do the same with PHP they will just laugh at you
18:19:12 <elliott> sounds like ur aim is hecked
18:21:54 <mnoqy> impressed by way of why the hell would you write anything in php
18:28:28 <kmc> isn't it great how the people who want static types to catch our own mistakes are 'elitists' while the people who say "Real Programmers just don't make mistakes" are the salt of the earth
18:29:09 <elliott> we really need like a hardcore anti-intellectual PHP programmer in here so kmc has someone to talk to
18:29:34 <kmc> nah i much prefer arguing with strawmen
18:47:54 <NihilistDandy> elliott: I could get my boss in here to keep going on and on about CamelCase like that implementation detail matters
18:48:18 <mnoqy> While PHP is an excellent language for building complex web application, it imposes certain limitations.
18:48:46 <NihilistDandy> I'm just going to write overly type hinted PHP to fuck with him
18:49:35 <NihilistDandy> I've already started using array_map and array_reduce all the time to throw him off
18:51:32 <fizzie> Hmm. For some reason, autopano-SIFT is having some trouble finding good keypoints in https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130627-p1180129.jpg
18:51:43 <fizzie> (Also: photo of the year 2013?)
18:52:42 <kmc> http://io9.com/5938521/the-ultimate-invention-for-telling-your-coworkers-to-screw-themselves
18:57:23 <NihilistDandy> "you can make [PHP] even more secure if you get a thorough understanding of all its directives"
18:58:15 <kmc> i love this attitude where knowing a workaround for a flaw, no matter how awful or tedious, means the flaw doesn't exist in the first place
18:58:24 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, Haskell sucks. I don't have to understand the entire language just to make code that won't explode in my face
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19:12:45 <oklopol> "lack of operator overloading, etc. can affect the performance of a PHP application"
19:16:08 <NihilistDandy> "there is something called a Command Line Interface and this can be used to ensure that your PHP applications run outside the web server"
19:16:33 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/CSbWN6z.jpg
19:19:17 <elliott> ok so this is like the least likely thing
19:19:24 <elliott> but does anyone use agda with emacs on os x
19:19:30 <Gracenotes> hm, I have to close an investment account that was opened in 1998, to get monies
19:19:34 <elliott> if so why do subscripts not show no matter what font i use
19:19:35 <kmc> seems p. likely, but try #agda?
19:19:38 <elliott> oh maybe copumpkin does????
19:19:50 <elliott> kmc: uh I think you'll find that questions are only on topic in #esoteric
19:19:58 <Gracenotes> I don't know if I can do that. that account is, like, pretty old. it's almost able to get a driving permit in some states.
19:19:59 <elliott> NihilistDandy: ok great please tell me your subscripts were broken and then you found a way to fix them
19:20:17 <NihilistDandy> I haven't noticed anything particularly broken before. Screenshot?
19:20:31 <elliott> Gracenotes: that account is 3 years younger than me 8|
19:20:33 <NihilistDandy> I use DejaVu Sans Mono and that always seemed to play nice with it
19:20:37 <elliott> NihilistDandy: they literally just display as spaces
19:20:43 <elliott> I mean I could screenshot it but it seems a little pointless
19:20:52 <elliott> where do you get your emacs / what version is it?
19:21:36 <Gracenotes> elliott: I feel like I might get some kind of award if I leave it open for long enough
19:21:48 <elliott> except maybe without the gnutls part but I doubt that's relevant
19:21:52 <Gracenotes> or, like, the ultimate negotiating trump card, in some circumstance
19:22:50 <Gracenotes> I don't think finance works like that, though
19:22:53 <elliott> maybe it's something to do with line height or anything
19:23:01 <NihilistDandy> Well, let me install Agda again. I recently reformatted and I haven't got everything set up, yet.
19:24:33 <elliott> Inconsolata with nothing particularly interesting-looking in the details -- I do (set-default-font "Inconsolata-16") in my ~/.emacs, but it also happens with every other font I have tried
19:24:37 <elliott> and all the other unicode works fine
19:26:34 <NihilistDandy> Also, wow, I just installed Agda after weeks of experimenting with packages from all over the place, and it didn't break once :D
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19:42:57 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Yeah, subscripts seem to be working for me
19:45:42 <NihilistDandy> Also, man, oh man, I need to change the highlighting for Agda
19:47:45 <elliott> does it work with other fonts for you?
19:47:48 <NihilistDandy> Does the subscript in this file show up? http://d.pr/f/AAji
19:48:50 <elliott> NihilistDandy: http://i.imgur.com/c9wmiRf.png
19:49:12 <NihilistDandy> Well, there's a package I have installed that might help
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19:50:09 <NihilistDandy> It adds a little startup time, but it might do the trick
19:51:02 <NihilistDandy> That's very odd, though. I can't imagine what would cause that
19:51:23 <elliott> [No match] for unicode-fonts apparently
19:51:33 <elliott> btw, the space seems oddly thin
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19:52:11 <NihilistDandy> '("melpa" . "http://melpa.milkbox.net/packages/") t)
19:53:04 <NihilistDandy> Let me try removing that package and maybe I'll be able to reproduce the issue
19:53:49 <elliott> that seems weird, what does that package even do
19:54:15 <NihilistDandy> https://github.com/rolandwalker/unicode-fonts#overview
19:55:01 <elliott> ok so I guess the problem is i don't have dejavu sans mono
19:55:06 <elliott> and you were getting all the glyphs substituted from there
19:55:38 <NihilistDandy> Well, I still have DejaVu, now, and my subscripts are gone
19:56:06 <elliott> maybe symbola or something then??
19:56:13 <elliott> thanks for your help, anyway
19:56:21 <elliott> will see if I can fix it with this
19:56:44 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, I think this is all that's necessary. It's a minor annoyance, but you can switch off fonts to boost startup time
19:57:17 <NihilistDandy> I'm not sure if it's an issue in agda-mode, Emacs, or what.
19:58:07 <elliott> Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading `/Users/elliott/.emacs':
19:58:11 <elliott> Symbol's value as variable is void: package-archives
19:58:13 <elliott> do I have to do more stuff to set up this package thing
19:58:34 <NihilistDandy> Package is part of Emacs 24, so that should be enough
19:59:16 <NihilistDandy> (setq package-archives '(("gnu" . "http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/")
19:59:16 <NihilistDandy> ("marmalade" . "http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/")
19:59:16 <NihilistDandy> ("melpa" . "http://melpa.milkbox.net/packages/")))
19:59:22 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/IGQZduF.png exclusive picture of me
20:02:48 <mnoqy> Bike, The True HOOHA
20:02:51 <mnoqy> so it was you all along
20:03:49 <elliott> mnoqy: have uyou seen the article that goes witht hat image
20:03:58 <elliott> bike has a link, it is very good
20:05:02 <Koen_> oh actually you have to set the oven on if you want your pizza to be baked
20:05:08 <Koen_> nobody told me that
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20:09:52 <elliott> mnoqy: found it on bike's behalf http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/12/us-usa-security-snowden-anime-idUSBRE95B14B20130612
20:10:07 <NihilistDandy> Does the NSA care that I follow Al Jazeera on Twitter?
20:10:39 <Bike> al jazeera is pretty weaksauce as evil terrists go
20:11:16 <elliott> it makes up for him supporting ron paul, imo.
20:12:46 <Bike> statist capitalism* hth
20:13:34 <NihilistDandy> Anyway, elliott, why Agda. Errybody knows Idris is the new hotness
20:14:03 <elliott> idris is... somewhat unpolished in my experience
20:14:28 <Bike> for fuck's sake why are you not talking about the actor
20:14:41 <kmc> idris elba?
20:14:43 <kmc> he's p. good
20:15:21 <kmc> should i watch that
20:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately that ginger psychopath character put me off
20:15:37 <Koen_> well that depends what kind of shows you like though
20:15:40 <kmc> i saw like 1½ episodes and i was like "... this is a bit much"
20:16:15 <Koen_> I'm gonna spoil you though superman does not appear in the first season
20:16:36 <Koen_> I only realized after watching it that it was Luther and not Luthor
20:20:17 <ion> :-D http://i.imgur.com/JYGV1K8.jpg
20:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Koen_, so why did luther keep trusting her that really pissed me off
20:20:51 <Phantom_Hoover> he really just seemed to be doing it to make him interesting and dark
20:22:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he just had to get the violins made
20:23:45 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: when did he trust her?
20:23:58 <Koen_> he spent half the season trying to protect his family from her
20:24:56 <Koen_> "one coffee doesn't make us friends" was wrong apparently
20:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't remember but i have this vague recollection that ~feminine wiles~ may have been involved
20:27:31 <Gracenotes> strangely enough, I can add funds online to this account, but I can't remove any
20:27:54 <kmc> feminine andrew wiles
20:31:22 <Fiora> "I'd like to find a powersmooth region on *your* elliptic curves"
20:32:06 <Bike> "is that a pickup line?" "Yeah, here's my two hundred page proof you should find that attractive"
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20:34:17 <Fiora> "I think you made an error in your proof... here."
20:37:26 <mnoqy> great joke ph (a thumb up)
20:38:33 <Fiora> I... was actually thinking at pointing at somewhere in the math
20:38:51 <Bike> maybe you don't have what it takes to flirt with the dorkiest mathematician alive
20:45:02 <Fiora> Bike: before that I'd need to like, have what it takes to flirt with somewhat dorky biomathematicians who hang out in #esoteric
20:47:16 <Bike> go meta, obviously, they dig that
20:48:37 <Fiora> is that the joke >_<
20:53:19 <elliott> NihilistDandy: hmm, I seem to have gotten that package source added but unicode-fonts is still nowhere to be found
20:53:46 <NihilistDandy> elliott: M-x package-list-packages should download the list
20:54:48 <elliott> you know, when people talk about emacs being an OS I doubt what they had in mind was that it needed a package manager
20:54:58 <elliott> this seems to be working though, yay
20:56:47 <NihilistDandy> Even vim has like 6 competing package managers. At least emacs settled on one
21:10:01 * kmc → airplane → SAN FRANCISCO
21:10:45 <Bike> remember to keep the plane level
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21:12:59 <oerjan> kmc: don't forget the flour in your hare hth
21:15:07 <fizzie> Don't forget the fluoride in your water hth2
21:16:27 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fluids.jpg
21:17:13 <Bike> NaS is a good musician
21:17:26 <Bike> i think the nazis did fluoridate water
21:17:36 <Bike> i mean, they also banned smoking, etc etc
21:17:53 <NihilistDandy> Also, if it causes apathy, who is that sign going to convince?
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21:17:56 <oerjan> I,I http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar
21:18:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's an owl
21:18:34 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: maybe i like owls
21:18:57 * Bike googles "water fluoridation nazis", which will surely be informative
21:19:00 <elliott> NihilistDandy: it works!!! thank you
21:19:36 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Nice. I wonder why that happens, all of a sudden. Maybe Emacs 24 handles unicode differently than 23 did
21:20:01 <Bike> "The Use Of Flouridation For Mass Mind Control - Rense" hm yes.
21:20:26 <ion> I hate the water fluoridation nazis. They totally suck.
21:20:30 <oerjan> oh hm duh tmux -c does _not_ actually start tmux
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21:22:33 <shachaf> oerjan: tmux new cmd # hth
21:22:44 <ion> I just run tmux a
21:22:50 <shachaf> my irc-thing command file says:
21:22:52 <oerjan> shachaf: i know, i just assumed -c would be a synonym
21:22:56 <shachaf> #exec tmux new -A -D -s irc
21:22:56 <shachaf> exec tmux attach -d -t irc # old version of tmux; will attach only
21:23:12 <shachaf> because my server's tmux is too told to support new -A :'(
21:23:32 <ion> I have (among other things) this in my .tmux.conf: new -d -s0 -nirc 'exec weechat-curses'
21:23:44 <ion> tmux a will run that if no tmux session exists. Otherwise it’ll just attach normally.
21:24:04 <ion> Should work with old versions, too.
21:25:40 <fizzie> I just tested out a hand-crafted panorama tripod head thing in an *enclosed space* -- and look, no parallax to speak of: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130627-p1180115-162-small.jpg -- shame it's pretty much the most boring hotel room.
21:25:47 <fizzie> I also tested it in the fanciest possible place, this concert stage floating on a cliff-enclosed lake in an old molybdenum mine -- except turns out things that float around actually, well, float around, so the fancy rotate-around-the-no-parallax-point rig did absolutely nothing special at all.
21:26:08 <ion> fizzie: Cool. Information about the tripod head anywhere?
21:26:27 <elliott> oerjan: dtach is much easier to use, hth
21:26:40 <ion> Does dtach support multiple windows?
21:27:35 <ion> Can you shells, text editors, a torrent client and a log reader in your IRC client?
21:27:57 <elliott> is CLIENTINFO actually a thing
21:28:13 <fizzie> ion: Not really; though it's not terribly exciting, I just more or less followed one of the umpteen guides along the lines of "L-shaped piece of metal bolted to a straight piece of metal". There's a picture of it at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130627-panohead.jpg anyway.
21:28:15 <elliott> ion: no, but my terminal emulator has this handy feature whereby it can open multiple ones
21:28:49 <ion> fizzie: Alright, thanks
21:29:08 <ion> elliott: And attach to them from elsewhere?
21:29:33 <oerjan> elliott: i think i like tmux thank you very much, also this server doesn't have dtach installed.
21:30:10 <elliott> ion: my terminals are a mess, why would I want to replicate that mess? :)
21:30:22 <fizzie> Also, molybdenum mine lake concert stage thing: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130627-p1180390-437-small.jpg
21:32:13 <fizzie> (The cliff doesn't look terribly impressive after the equirectangular squezzling.
21:32:15 <oerjan> elliott: also my main reason for using tmux is that my network connection is flaky, which makes it much simpler to just have to restart _one_ window, sure?
21:32:42 <elliott> oerjan: wait you actually use putty for more than irssi? :P
21:33:05 <oerjan> but also, ^Bc _is_ more convenient than opening another putty.
21:33:26 <shachaf> oerjan: but now if you want bold text you have to press ^B twice
21:33:52 <oerjan> elliott: well not _most_ of the time, but i _do_ have my email, webpage and linux in general on the nvg server...
21:34:37 <oerjan> shachaf: fortunately i rarely want that. screen's ^A was much more annoying, since that's what i've bound to go to start of line
21:35:37 <oerjan> elliott: also i use it to do host or whois whenever i want to check out things to ban (inb4 "that's nearly never!")
21:39:45 <oerjan> 03:29:16: <Fiora> presidential elections in ~20 years will be pretty amazing
21:39:45 <oerjan> 03:29:27: <Fiora> all the candidates will have embarrassed themselves terribly on like, facebook and stuff as kids
21:40:02 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, that waas my situation too.
21:40:10 <shachaf> oerjan: (Also you can rebind this key if you want.)
21:40:12 <oerjan> i am hoping this kind of process will make people stop caring about such insignificant things
21:40:27 <elliott> NihilistDandy: hah but now \lub shows as a square
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21:43:49 <shachaf> oerjan: You could rebind it in screen if you wanted, too.
21:43:55 <shachaf> but you were too lazy to hth
21:44:43 <oerjan> no i actually rebound it to ^Y in screen, but then i complained about pgup/pgdn not working and people suggested changing to tmux
21:45:17 <oerjan> which actually did nothing to fix the pgup/pgdn issue but people said tmux was better in general
21:45:40 <oerjan> (i fixed that by finding the correct putty setting)
21:46:29 <oerjan> shachaf: also i _first_ rebound it to the mnemonic ^S, with what in afterthought should be obvious hilarious results.
21:51:10 <oerjan> (i _knew_ about xon/xoff, but had somehow got the impression it wasn't usually enabled...)
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21:59:46 <FreeFull> I tried to disable xon/xoff, but somehow it still occasionally happens
22:02:14 <oerjan> FreeFull: not when you're trying to get an _actual_ ^S through to screen which you are trying to reset without killing it
22:03:23 <oerjan> fortunately i was in a shell window, and found out screen could be controlled remotely
22:07:42 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> elliott, when I am bored I like to throw Haskell web frameworks at eachother <- you should make partial lenses to convert between snap and yesod hth
22:08:04 <HackEgo> Thanks, kappabot. Thappabot.
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22:13:13 <oerjan> how to reconnect in five noisy steps
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22:16:45 <oerjan> Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj is such a household name
22:16:51 -!- Frooxius has joined.
22:22:13 <Bike> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/06/msg00720.html lol.
22:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> huh, that thing shachaf kept bugging everyone about got funded
22:31:01 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: p. crazy huh
22:31:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i know, i was expecting it to fail because shachaf was helping
22:31:26 <shachaf> and there we were thinking it was p. not going to make it
22:31:41 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: is the joke "shachaf is incompetent" :'(
22:32:30 <shachaf> this sounds like a useful skill
22:32:36 <shachaf> i would use it to my advatnage except, y'know
22:32:50 <shachaf> (I suspect Phantom_Hoover just likes insulting people for some reason.)
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22:45:59 <oerjan> how could it not succeed with a cosy name like armikrog
22:47:58 <NihilistDandy> @tell elliott So, it turns out you don't really need all that unicode-fonts nonsense, after all. https://github.com/railwaycat/emacs-mac-port brew rm emacs, then tap and install this one. I used it a few months back when it was less stable, and it's generally nicer than the current Cocoa port. It even works in terminal, mostly.
22:48:42 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: requested).
22:49:51 <oerjan> ...i guess technically this means the duplicate messages will annoy people the next time it joins...
22:51:40 <Bike> c. deep indeed
22:52:23 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Anyway, I fixed emacs by getting rid of emacs and getting a different one. And it should also fix it for you
22:52:42 <NihilistDandy> Bonus points because it will actually be nicer in most wayss
22:53:30 <NihilistDandy> The icon is about a thousand times uglier, but who looks at the dock?
23:14:17 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:23:08 * oerjan predicts that the ugly icon will drive elliott absolutely bonkers
23:28:46 <NihilistDandy> Not as much as incomplete Unicode coverage in Agda mode will
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23:34:14 <kmc> hi shachaf
23:34:16 <kmc> i'm back in #haskell
23:34:52 <shachaf> i thought it was just temporary
23:34:59 <Fiora> I thought you were getting on a plane
23:35:05 <kmc> it takes a while to get on a plane
23:35:30 <shachaf> departs in 2 hours 25 mins
23:37:02 <kmc> my flight from Boston to SF is delayed due to fog
23:37:04 <kmc> how ironic
23:38:17 <kmc> I'll arrive too late for BART so I'll take SamTrans 292 / 397
23:38:23 <kmc> unless I arrive really late and BART is running again
23:38:33 <kmc> or I could be a true mission software jerk and take an Uber
23:38:38 <elliott> kmc: i like this moving to SF and joining #haskell on the same day
23:38:46 <elliott> in my head you've been planning this for months
23:38:55 <elliott> the day everything changes
23:39:03 <shachaf> you could also take one of those shuttles
23:39:16 <kmc> don't know shuttles
23:39:43 <shachaf> i mean the thing you linked to a while ago when i asked about it
23:40:50 <kmc> those kind of suck
23:40:55 <kmc> but it's a thought, yeah
23:41:09 <shachaf> depends on where you're going
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23:46:09 <shachaf> what's bad about those shuttles
23:53:02 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-ph/0609050v1.pdf
23:54:05 <kmc> shachaf: they are ok in the from-airport direction, I guess
23:54:15 <Bike> «We consider the 4D effective theory for the light Kaluza-Klein (KK) modes. The heavy KK mode contribution is generally needed to reproduce the correct physical predictions: an equivalence, between the effective theory and the D-dimensional (or geometrical) approach to spontaneous symmetry breaking (SSB), emerges only if the heavy mode contribution is taken into account. This happens even if the heavy mode masses are at the Planck ...
23:54:21 <Bike> ... scale. In particular, we analyze a 6D Einstein-Maxwell model coupled to a charged scalar and fermions. Moreover, we briefly review non-Abelian and supersymmetric extensions of this theory.»
23:54:25 <Bike> is this the same one
23:54:26 <kmc> much slower than a taxi, much more expensive than public transit, but possibly an attractive tradeoff
23:54:28 <Bike> because: helppppp
23:54:39 <kmc> in the to-airport direction I've had them show up much later than they said they would
23:54:41 <shachaf> in the other direction you have to show up p. early
23:55:18 <Fiora> Bike: "In addition, although not conclusively proven, it has long been proposed that the parity violation of the weak interactions was important in producing the essential left-right asymmetry of many organic molecules and of the human body, as reviewed for example in ref.[4]"
23:55:44 <Bike> oh, http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0609050 this one?
23:56:06 <Fiora> I thought that was what I linked @_@
23:56:17 <Bike> i don't click pdfs usually
23:56:20 <Bike> i like to know what it is
23:56:26 <Bike> "Since oxygen is an essential element in both water, the universal solvent needed for life, and in each of the four bases forming the DNA code for known living beings, we strongly question the hypothesis that a universe without weak interactions could generate life" weak!
23:56:40 <Fiora> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14709773 wow this is a thing in an experimental biology journal
23:57:02 <kmc> that's a pretty dodgy conclusion
23:57:13 <kmc> that our biochemistry is the only way to build "living beings" whatever that even means
23:57:36 <Bike> were you not paying attention the last nine times i was gushing about a paper about cyborganisms working better by predicting primates' locomotion decisions
23:57:42 <Bike> experimental biology is the best, is what i'm saying
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23:58:54 <Bike> "Division of Rheumatology, Allergy, and Clinical Immunology" this seems like an odd place to tackle these problems from
23:59:08 <elliott> lexande joined #esoteric!?
23:59:15 <elliott> usually people do that before getting in the qdb.
23:59:25 <kmc> `quote lexande
23:59:27 <HackEgo> 941) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
23:59:38 <kmc> elliott: I did't!
23:59:43 <Fiora> and then you have two problems?
23:59:46 <HackEgo> 589) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 619) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 690) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 693) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
23:59:54 <kmc> Fiora: yep
23:59:56 <elliott> kmc: i think you said the cocks thing in #esoteric
00:00:01 <kmc> i think no
00:00:05 <elliott> I know for a fact you've said cocks things in #esoteric
00:00:10 <elliott> but that cocks thing in particular
00:00:53 <Fiora> Bike: it seems like the thing in this paper is that without the weak interaction you can't have core collapse supernovae, so it's way harder to get interesting elements out into the universe
00:00:54 <lexande> i was in kmc's Caltech qdb before being accepted to Caltech
00:00:55 <Bike> i hope we run into l-form aliens
00:01:17 <Bike> Fiora: hmmmmmmmm i remember some stuff about how to form carbon without the usual reactions
00:01:42 <Bike> unfortunately it was in a pop sci book i don't have
00:01:44 <Fiora> it's not about forming but about getting out of stars, I think
00:01:47 <Bike> the links were, i mean
00:02:06 <Fiora> like without the weak interaction you'd get a bunch of white dwarfs, I think? I'm not sure
00:02:27 <Fiora> I wonder how bigger stars would collapse
00:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the point seems to be that proton + electron -> neutron is necessary for neutronium to form
00:02:50 <Fiora> there's also the thing that neutrinos are a huge part of the supernovae process, I think
00:02:53 <Fiora> like, neutrino pressure
00:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i assume there'd still be gravitational collapse though?
00:03:14 <Fiora> yeah... geez. that is an interesting question
00:03:26 <Fiora> like what would happen if you had a graviationally collapsing iron core
00:05:12 <Bike> "weakless universe" sounds kinda cool though
00:05:36 <Fiora> bike wants a strong universe
00:05:47 <kmc> i wonder what security holes my 2004 era perl quote webapp had
00:06:45 <kmc> CSRF for sure
00:07:40 <shachaf> csrf is a really annoying sort of bug because you get it from not doing something, as opposed to doing something wrong
00:08:06 <shachaf> (as opposed to, say, buffer overflows, xss, etc.)
00:08:31 <shachaf> i wonder whether there are unknown classes of bugs like that that exist everywhere and no one knows about
00:08:35 <kmc> why would you want it to be secure by default, why not write a secure code for it
00:08:38 <Bike> Fiora: maybe i want a universe that isn't so hardassed about strength/weakness dichotomies!!
00:08:53 <kmc> xss is also framed as from not doing something, "not escaping"
00:09:08 <Bike> where's the mediocre force, i ask you. the "ok at friendly boxing but can't run" force
00:09:22 <Fiora> Bike: electromagnetic, right?
00:09:25 <kmc> it happens because web developers only acknowledge one type
00:10:11 <Fiora> it's the medium force
00:10:13 <Fiora> the mediocre force
00:10:27 <Bike> i thought gravity was the weakest force
00:10:38 <Bike> or protons are really light or whatever.
00:10:57 <Fiora> yeah, gravity is like 10^30 something times weaker
00:11:09 <Bike> "the kind of bullshit force, tbh"
00:11:16 <Bike> the why bother force
00:11:42 <ion> Gravity is so weak i don’t even bother to submit to it.
00:13:38 <Fiora> it's only a theory, right?
00:14:43 <oerjan> <Bike> i don't click pdfs usually <-- i'm with Bike
00:14:59 <Fiora> I-I'll try to link the arxiv pages from now on instea.d..
00:15:47 <elliott> counterpoint: I click all pdfs
00:16:29 <shachaf> counterpoint: i click links whenever Bike doesn't
00:18:16 <lexande> Fiora: weak is stronger than electromagnetic right?
00:18:40 <lexande> i thought it was like strong > weak > electromagnetic >> gravity
00:19:02 <kmc> aren't electromagnetic and weak secretly the same thing somehow
00:19:03 <Fiora> is it? I can never remember >_<
00:19:07 <Fiora> I thought weak was less
00:19:40 <Fiora> wikipedia says strong=10^38
00:19:44 <Fiora> electromangetic 10^36
00:20:03 <shachaf> that's a p. big difference
00:20:03 <elliott> rename gravity superweak force imo
00:20:07 <Fiora> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction
00:22:58 <Fiora> but gravity makes event horizons :<
00:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> quantum physicists just try to put it down because they can't really work it out
00:23:23 <shachaf> gravity more like depravity
00:23:28 <shachaf> the joke is that gravity is bad
00:24:20 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> you know, when people talk about emacs being an OS I doubt what they had in mind was that it needed a package manager
00:24:24 <HackEgo> 1064) <elliott> you know, when people talk about emacs being an OS I doubt what they had in mind was that it needed a package manager
00:29:48 <kmc> yay rust has or-patterns
00:30:48 <kmc> patterns that match either of two subpatterns
00:31:31 <shachaf> What happens when they bind variables?
00:31:42 <kmc> they have to bind the same set of variables at the same types, I think
00:33:37 <kmc> i'm reading the rust tutorial and also building rust
00:34:12 <elliott> maybe I asked that already
00:34:31 <shachaf> elliott: the tutorial is p. simple
00:34:41 <shachaf> kmc: I like how they're going to take "for" out of the language.
00:34:49 <shachaf> (And then put it back in with a different, more reasonable behavior.)
00:34:59 <kmc> i like that too, then, I guess?
00:35:15 <shachaf> The point is that it's not all that stable yet.
00:35:32 <kmc> my first job will be to rewrite all the for loops in Servo, I'm sure
00:36:05 <shachaf> I hear Option<T> is actually represented as a potentially-null pointer at runtime.
00:36:13 <kmc> i wonder why it has such curly-bracy, non-layout syntax. if it's what they really want or if it's some "people will be scared" thing
00:36:15 <shachaf> I don't know how Option<Option<T>> is represented.
00:36:31 <shachaf> You know how in C you can do things like foo(T *x) { if (x == NULL) return ...; ...; }, without introducing an extra level of nesting?
00:36:41 <shachaf> Is there a nice pattern-matchy of doing that safely?
00:37:12 <kmc> elaborate?
00:38:01 <shachaf> If you were matching on Maybe, you would say fn foo(x: Maybe<x>) { match x { Nothing => ...; Just(y) => ... } }
00:38:14 <elliott> kmc: yeah rust's syntax seems erally ugly to me
00:38:17 <shachaf> And everything in the Just case is nested an extra level -- which probably means your entire function.
00:38:18 <elliott> on a purely aesthetic level
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00:39:43 <shachaf> "You're invited to Human API Hackathon (Jul 6, 2013 - Jul 7, 2013)"
00:40:18 <kmc> one day they'll hack that thon for good
00:40:41 <shachaf> will rust have rank-2 types.....
00:40:57 <shachaf> They have type-class-ish things which you can also use as a type and then they become existential.
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00:41:49 <shachaf> does rust have polymorphic recursion.....i bet the answer is no
00:42:00 <shachaf> does rust support constructor classes......
00:42:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:42:34 <shachaf> kmc: I found the distinction between one-variant enums and structs kind of odd.
00:42:35 <kmc> i think no
00:42:42 <kmc> I was just going to remark on that
00:42:48 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
00:42:52 <shachaf> I guess it's because structs guarantee memory compatibility with C structs.
00:43:03 <shachaf> So I wonder whether it's better to use a one-variant enum when you don't care about that.
00:43:23 <shachaf> Or maybe you can get them to merge the two!
00:44:08 <kmc> also it doesn't infer function arg / return types??
00:44:43 <kmc> well for top level 'fn'
00:45:01 <kmc> it does infer them on lambdas, so I guess this amounts to enforcing a rule that GHC warns about anyway
00:45:31 <shachaf> With GHC it's still sometimes nice to write a function and then ask for its type.
00:45:39 <shachaf> Though it's not all that common.
00:45:48 <shachaf> rusti doesn't support :t :'(
00:46:29 <shachaf> The semicolon thing is kind of weird.
00:46:42 <shachaf> You can say { ...; x } or { ...; return x; } but not { ...; x; }
00:47:02 <shachaf> Seems like a very easy thing to accidentally write or forget a semicolon.
00:47:10 <Bike> I guess x last isn't a statement, in the same waY?
00:47:15 <shachaf> I guess the typechecker would catch most of those kinds of bugs, though.
00:47:16 <kmc> you can say the latter and it gives you a function returning () right?
00:51:09 <Bike> do you get a warning for a spurious statement?
00:54:52 <elliott> imo kmc should turn rust into haskell.
00:55:09 <kmc> haskel über alles
00:55:18 <kmc> did not care enough to fix typo, hth
00:55:18 <shachaf> rust is already k. haskell
00:55:39 <shachaf> people say "foo is haskell-inspired" a lot when they mean something like list comprehensions
00:55:51 <shachaf> but rust has more significant similarities than that
00:55:56 <kmc> Haskell is the cool language to know and be inspired by and never use
00:55:58 <shachaf> of course maybe they're similarities to ocaml or whatever it is
00:56:09 <kmc> but yeah I think rust is more substantial than that
00:56:12 <Bike> some language that ends with an l
00:56:26 <kmc> Go's interfaces whatever are supposed to be "haskell like" but the language doesn't even have polymorphism
00:56:35 <elliott> I really doubt any part of Go is explicitly inspired by haskell
00:56:35 <kmc> `quote haskell-like
00:56:37 <HackEgo> 870) <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments
00:56:41 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, do you... have something against being inspired by haskell but not using it?
00:56:51 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: not really
00:56:52 <Bike> read the cconversation man
00:57:04 <kmc> i mean it's what i do
00:57:07 <kmc> for the most part
00:57:57 <Bike> a complaint is with languages saying they're haskell-inspired when it's something boringer than inference and type constructors and stuff
00:58:43 <Bike> he does that's true
00:58:51 <kmc> yes I'm bitter and stuff
00:58:56 <kmc> and PH is annoyed by it
00:59:11 <shachaf> kmc: pigworker pointed out that type classes are a kind of program-inference-from-types, rather than type-inference-from-programs
00:59:19 <Bike> i'll be really happy when i get into A Field and can feel dumb and behind the times about that instead of wih CS
00:59:30 <kmc> shachaf: that's cool
00:59:39 <elliott> Bike: I hear you're a biomathematician.........
00:59:53 <Bike> come at me bro
01:00:27 <Bike> oh i read one of that guy's books
01:00:30 <Bike> ..................on biology
01:01:59 <Bike> ooh oscillators
01:02:07 <kmc> going to get on this plane soon
01:02:14 <ion> Look out for the snakes.
01:02:21 <kmc> afk (maybe back once I'm on the plane?)
01:02:25 <Bike> "A group-theoretic approach to rings of coupled biological oscillators." well then
01:02:51 <Bike> hmmmmmmmmmm did i read one of these papers, lessee
01:02:53 <Phantom_Hoover> although he did it on insects so he also has a lot of those on his walls
01:03:06 <Bike> insects are animals maaaaan
01:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, he did it on them specifically rather than animals in geneal
01:03:52 <Bike> aww, my book on neuroethological robotics doesn't have any of these
01:03:57 <Bike> clearly a new anthology is called for
01:09:54 <elliott> kmc: planes shouldn't ahve internet
01:11:13 <Bike> elliott: voice gregor.
01:11:22 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
01:11:36 <Bike> elliott how can you fail your constituency like that!
01:11:42 <elliott> oerjan: does 2 mean you op me instead
01:11:56 <elliott> btw have you noticed ais523 left for good
01:12:00 <ion> No, he’ll nop you instead.
01:12:02 <oerjan> elliott: it would if shachaf had said "op" instead of "nop"
01:12:24 <elliott> an advantage of opping me is that i'm already in the access list
01:12:26 <elliott> less work to just modify it
01:12:28 <ion> You haven’t nopped him yet, though.
01:12:39 <Bike> hasn't he, ion? hasn't he?
01:12:47 <shachaf> oerjan: the advantage of opping me is that i'm p. groovy
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01:13:10 <ion> Oh, that kind of nop.
01:13:13 <ion> Fair enough.
01:13:45 <Sgeo> I want to buy more memory for my work computer :/
01:13:47 <HackEgo> 2013-06-21 04:13:29: <ais523> yeah, me not knowing how they work is a problem for working out ways to program with them, though
01:14:04 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen ais523_ ever
01:14:20 <oerjan> elliott: hm it's been a while
01:14:43 <Bike> his worldview was inadequate, obviously
01:14:57 <Bike> just couldn't take the full force of Bike
01:15:07 <elliott> oerjan: iirc the logs were down when he /parted forever, though.
01:16:08 <shachaf> the logs that is, the logs that isn't, and the logs that may or may not be
01:16:42 <oerjan> shachaf: so are you made of vinyl
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01:21:11 <kmc> elliott: this plane doesn't have internet, I'm just tethering while I'm still on the ground
01:21:41 <kmc> you're really sad
01:21:44 <kmc> (not really)
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01:21:56 <Bike_> can you send internet through flight radar
01:21:59 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
01:22:01 <kmc> i built rust 0.6 and i'm going to write some rust 0.6 code during this flight
01:22:11 <kmc> I assume my knowledge will be woefully out of date by the time i land
01:22:12 <Bike> i'm pretty sure you should find an exploit in the plane software while you're in the hair
01:22:23 <Bike> do some movie shit
01:22:27 <Bike> redirect to the bahamas
01:23:30 <Fiora> so like, by the time you land
01:23:34 <Fiora> your knowledge will be a bit rusty?
01:23:41 <Bike> no shut up nooooo
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01:24:11 <kmc> Fiora: -____-
01:24:22 <Bike> glad you got that in before you hit the air
01:24:55 <kmc> hit the air running
01:25:01 <elliott> i like the idea that kmc is learning rust on the flight in an emergency before the interview
01:25:12 <elliott> like "oh shit, I don't actually know any rust"
01:25:21 <kmc> yeah that's basically the case
01:25:22 <Fiora> is the process of learning rust "oxidizing"?
01:25:24 <kmc> except s/interview/job/
01:25:25 <Fiora> kmc is oxidizing on his flight
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01:25:36 <kmc> fair point
01:25:38 <elliott> job = really long interview that you get paid for
01:25:41 <kmc> in an at will employment state
01:26:05 <kmc> yeah some companies only hire through internship / contract work
01:26:13 <kmc> which is a long interview that you get paid for
01:27:53 <Bike> truly, isn't life an interview, in the large
01:28:27 <HackEgo> 372) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
01:28:56 <Fiora> life is an interview for applying to madoka's^W heaven?
01:29:18 <Bike> kmc i'm not sure you get the c.c thing
01:29:18 <Sgeo> Who was that person who didn't watch PMMM yet
01:29:27 <kmc> PMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
01:29:52 <kmc> I guess it's time for laptop to sleep now
01:29:56 <kmc> see you all later
01:30:04 <Bike> have fun a billion feet up
01:33:35 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:33:50 <Bike> `pastelogs come Fiora
01:33:59 <elliott> no shachaf.... remember what happened the last time we `*elcomed Fiora!!
01:34:09 <shachaf> I don't think that'll find WeLcOmE or WELCOME or all those things.
01:34:20 <shachaf> elliott: no...........what happened
01:34:26 <Bike> fuck the18:19 pleez
01:34:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10777
01:35:17 <shachaf> Fiora: elliott said "hi kmc" and you said "hi elliott !" so the joke was that you were kmc.
01:35:41 <Bike> `run welcome shachaf | tr 'a-zA-Z' 'n-za-mN-ZA-M'
01:35:43 <HackEgo> funpuns: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
01:36:03 <shachaf> elliott: please arrange for uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr to be a valid url
01:36:13 <shachaf> invent a new protocol if you have to
01:36:17 <Fiora> shachaf: oh, sorry
01:36:31 <Fiora> um.... for being confusing!
01:36:59 <shachaf> I think *I* was the confusing one here...
01:37:12 <shachaf> You should be mad at me for not apologizing.
01:37:42 <Fiora> ...? why would I be...
01:38:21 <oerjan> shachaf: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/uggc-protocol/ hth
01:39:06 <Bike> Meet the Developer: Eli the Bearded. Learn why uggc protocol was created and find out what's next for this add-on.
01:41:06 <oerjan> i am not sure whether that lone commenter has got the point.
01:42:06 <Bike> is this bizarro shachaf
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02:08:18 <pikhq_> shachaf: Syntactically, it *is* a valid URL.
02:08:41 <Bike> but you need like, a scheme, man.
02:08:58 <pikhq_> Looks like it matches the generic schema.
02:10:27 <Sgeo> I um, wish I knew what that commenter was trying to say
02:10:32 <Sgeo> Almost wrote commentor. Thagora
02:17:04 <pikhq_> Opus audio on a video file in the wild.
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02:21:21 <pikhq_> Also fun, Ubuntu's shipped version of mplayer does not support Opus in mkv.
02:21:33 <ion> How about mplayer2?
02:21:56 <pikhq_> I just know mpv works just fine.
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03:38:24 <Bike> http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/come-again-penile-strangulation-by-metallic-rings-retracted-for-duplication/
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03:54:25 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozellida pseudofungi!!
04:01:11 <shachaf> ion: little-known fact: that's how kmc got into haskell
04:54:37 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
04:55:03 <shachaf> mnoqy did you see the top of the page
04:57:00 <mnoqy> very exciting and good
05:02:18 <shachaf> mnoqy: also this is a good comic
05:09:11 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, did you @quit kappabot?
05:09:27 <shachaf> oerjan: That bot is in more channels than just this one, you know! @part is there for a reason!
05:14:36 <mnoqy> shachaf: yes it is a good comic
05:15:44 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey what's the cps-encoding of newtype Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f))
05:15:52 <shachaf> is it just newtype Fox f = Fox (forall r. f r -> r)............. that doesn't really sound right
05:16:38 <mnoqy> depenmds on what you mean by cps-encoding & how faithful you want to be to that newtype
05:16:54 <shachaf> i want the boehm-berarducci-church-etc thing
05:17:04 <shachaf> which turns lists into foldr and all that
05:18:12 <mnoqy> thhen thats it yes
05:18:20 <mnoqy> you might want to read http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/free-rectypes/free-rectypes.txt if you havent
05:18:43 <shachaf> ok but that's kind of weird because isn't Fix f isomorphic to (forall a. (f a -> a) -> a)
05:20:02 <mnoqy> i forget the name for that other thing youre saying woops
05:20:12 <mnoqy> i dont have "too much exposure" to it but ive seen it around
05:20:18 <shachaf> well that thing is just the type of fold
05:20:27 <shachaf> fol d:: Fix f -> (f a -> a) -> a
05:20:40 <shachaf> and you can fold with the "initial algebra" or whatever it is to get Fix back
05:20:56 <mnoqy> thats what that paper is about :-)
05:21:07 <mnoqy> its a tutorial on helping peopel get an understanding of that
05:21:20 <mnoqy> or rather a draft draft draft draft draft thereof
05:21:29 <elliott> is (forall r. f r -> r) really ~ Fix f
05:21:32 <elliott> like for instance consider f = Const Void
05:21:49 <elliott> but (forall r. Const Void r -> r) ~ (forall r. Void -> r)
05:21:54 <elliott> Fix (Const Void) is uninhabited
05:21:55 <mnoqy> i i may have oopsed BUT ALSO
05:21:59 <mnoqy> theres the thing where
05:22:03 <elliott> but (forall r. Void -> r) is inhabited
05:22:24 <mnoqy> ill just pull up the actuall thing and well settile it once and for all
05:22:35 <mnoqy> Lfix X. F X = All X. (F X -> X) -> X.
05:22:41 <mnoqy> "th re r you have it"
05:22:50 <elliott> 06:18:44 <shachaf> ok but that's kind of weird because isn't Fix f isomorphic to (forall a. (f a -> a) -> a)
05:22:57 <elliott> looks like the truth was with us all along....
05:23:07 <shachaf> elliott: p. sure edwardk said it was once
05:23:12 <shachaf> but he also said "in haskell"
05:23:23 <shachaf> and there's def. a data/codata thing going on here so maybe that's related??
05:23:48 <shachaf> because for codata you have (exists a. (a, a -> f a)) ~ Fix f "or something like that"
05:24:02 <mnoqy> you can find the eqn for that in the .txt too :) :)
05:24:03 <shachaf> i think that's the least/greatest fixed point thing
05:24:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: HEY I'M GETTING TO THE TXT OK
05:25:12 <shachaf> mnoqy: sorry for yelling :'(
05:25:44 <mnoqy> i just dont want to make the mistake again of seeing something that looks sort of like the right thing and saiyng "yes thats the right thing" when really its not
05:26:12 <shachaf> wait which thing are you talking about
05:28:22 <shachaf> 21:26:10 <edwardk> newtype Mu f = Mu (forall a. (f a -> a) -> a); data Nu f = forall a. Nu a (a -> f a) -- build mappings from Mu f -> Nu f and vice versa given Functor f
05:28:44 <shachaf> elliott: Nu (Const Void) also has exactly one inhabitant
05:29:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Void'
05:29:25 <shachaf> (I.e. a type with no inhabitants.)
05:29:35 <Bike> just wondering how it like looks
05:29:38 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Void'
05:30:11 <elliott> Void can be of any kind with PolyKinds on I think
05:30:14 <mnoqy> Gfix X. F X = Exists X. (X -> F X) * X,
05:30:20 <mnoqy> whats up with edwardk's Nu
05:30:39 <shachaf> mnoqy: he got it backwards
05:31:00 <mnoqy> ah that makes sense
05:31:02 <shachaf> oh that explains why my file says
05:31:03 <shachaf> data Nu f = forall a. Nu a (a -> f a)
05:31:09 <mnoqy> the Nu in his recschemes package is
05:31:12 <mnoqy> data Nu f whereSource
05:31:13 <mnoqy> Nu :: (a -> f a) -> a -> Nu f
05:31:20 <mnoqy> ^^good copy paste ^^
05:31:22 <shachaf> maybe he didn't get it backwards
05:31:28 <shachaf> no i'm the one who got it backwards just now
05:31:35 <shachaf> but it got it correct earlier
05:31:41 <shachaf> when i said (exists a. (a, a -> f a))
05:32:33 <shachaf> anyway it makes perfect sense
05:32:38 <shachaf> it's just building up a tree and all that
05:33:25 <shachaf> elliott: i misunderstood again!
05:33:35 <shachaf> (forall r. f r -> r) isn't (forall r. (f r -> r) -> r) at all
05:33:47 <shachaf> I really do doubt that (forall r. f r -> r) is right.
05:36:32 <shachaf> data Foo a = Foo a ---> newtype Foo a = Foo (forall r. (a -> r) -> r)
05:36:56 <shachaf> data Foo f a = Foo (f (Foo a)) ---> newtype Foo f a = Foo (forall r. (f r -> r) -> r)
05:37:01 <shachaf> Obviously it needs to be an argument.
05:37:21 <shachaf> elliott: OK, so "church"(/boehm-berarducci) encoding of Fix gives you Mu.
05:37:59 <shachaf> Is there a cochurch encoding that gives you Nu?
05:38:38 <shachaf> data Hi a = Hi a ----> data Ho a = forall x. Ho x (x -> a) -- totally making things up right now
05:39:47 <shachaf> OK, I guess there's no point to this encoding.
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05:55:47 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Department_of_Fun
05:56:28 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Department_of_Https
05:56:39 <shachaf> Wikipedia does not have a project page with this exact name.
05:58:37 <shachaf> ok mnoqy i'm going to read that txt file now
05:59:17 <shachaf> mnoqy: what does 'only allowing recursion in positive position' translate to in logic
05:59:58 <shachaf> i can't say anything but nonsense ;'"
06:01:40 <mnoqy> as far as the category theory goes youre just dealing with endofunctors...recursion in the negative position translates to a contravatiant position and you cant do stuff there
06:02:33 <shachaf> you get all kinds of paradoxes when you have self reference things
06:02:36 <mnoqy> that's what i'd like to know
06:02:55 <shachaf> and curry's paradox is the kind of thing that you get with negative position recursion right
06:03:06 <shachaf> and that sort of type lets you do r. evil things if you allow it
06:03:17 <shachaf> but the types with plain old positive recursion don't
06:03:29 <shachaf> does that mean you can allow "certain kinds of self reference" or something
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08:38:12 <kmc> welp i tried to write some rust code
08:38:17 <kmc> and got my brain twisted in I think a good way?
08:38:19 <kmc> time will tell
08:38:32 <elliott> I was hoping the second line would be "this is not the job for me"
08:38:38 <elliott> first line had that kinda resignation to it that suggested the possibility
08:39:06 <kmc> one cool thing is, the type of a reference includes the region over which it's valid, and you can actually name and bind these regions
08:39:26 <kmc> so a function can return a reference which is valid as long as a particular reference argument is
08:39:58 <kmc> it's the 'r here: fn get_x<'r>(p: &'r Point) -> &'r float { &p.x }
08:41:22 <kmc> I tried to implement a lambda calculus interpreter without using any managed boxes but I think that's impossible
08:41:45 <kmc> without writing your own GC i mean
08:42:36 <shachaf> have you been to a california welcome center yet
08:42:48 <shachaf> elliott: "had that kinda resignation to it that suggested that kinda resignation" hth
08:44:00 <kmc> oh also in rust the sugar for (*x).y is x.y not x->y
08:44:02 <kmc> "its weird"
08:44:28 <shachaf> yes that's "the cool thing to do"
08:45:01 <kmc> well I suppose C doesn't do that because a C compiler is allowed to be dumb as rocks
08:45:02 <elliott> just like python...............
08:45:24 <kmc> but more modern languages might want to avoid it because more overloaded syntax => more bad programs typecheck
08:45:29 <kmc> but maybe there isn't much risk of that in this case
08:46:06 <kmc> my bag came off the carousel so afk again
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09:22:53 <kmc> I guess I officially live in San Francisco now :)
09:23:37 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
09:23:46 <shachaf> finally a proper use of `relcome
09:23:56 <shachaf> wow myndzi doesn't account for voice
09:24:02 <kmc> viz. https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1011817_10100526803867865_340272139_n.jpg
09:24:13 <kmc> shachaf: that's what you get for setting empty nick whatever
09:26:45 <kmc> rust won't let me make a thing like an orphaned instance :(
09:27:09 <shachaf> Well, orphaned instances are evil.
09:27:14 <kmc> might relate to the fact that its polymorphism is accomplished through recompiling for each type (a la C++) rather than runtime parametric erasure whatever
09:27:35 <kmc> but maybe not
09:28:42 <shachaf> kmc: you should join #rust on irc.mozilla.org
09:29:00 <kmc> i just might do that
09:29:19 <shachaf> you p. know a lot of the p. there anyway
09:31:24 <kmc> https://www.imperialviolet.org/2013/06/27/botchingpfs.html
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09:43:39 <shachaf> so you're working in sf, right? not coming down to mv?
09:43:52 <kmc> right, except for the first day
09:44:07 <kmc> and maybe others from time to time? dunno
10:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, the Mongol conquests killed like 17% of the world population at the time.
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12:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> thought experiment: would agda still be cool if it used pascal-style syntax?
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13:05:43 <HackEgo> olist 896: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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13:40:52 <oerjan> there we are, back to leguin
13:41:15 <oerjan> (the norwegian server seems to be permanently refusing me)
13:41:36 <oerjan> and the rotation keeps stupidly sending me across the atlantic
13:42:35 <elliott> you could just specify a server...
13:42:50 <oerjan> elliott: um i just did
13:43:14 <oerjan> i had gibson in norwegian before, which has refused connections for weeks.
13:46:42 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see the olist
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14:07:23 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: That bot is in more channels than just this one, you know! @part is there for a reason!
14:07:52 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: That bot is in more channels than just this one, you know! @part is there for a reason! <-- oops sorry :P
14:12:25 <fizzie> oerjan: I interpreted "i had gibson in norwegian" to mean that you had a collection of Norwegian translations of Gibson's novels, and it puzzled me a whole lot as to how exactly were they "refusing connections".
14:12:43 <fizzie> "I'd really like to read this book, but it's refusing connections."
14:12:51 <fizzie> I guess in this e-age of e-books that might happen.
14:16:33 <shachaf> oerjan: exercise: write a function to convert Mu f to Nu f
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14:24:36 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't even remember what those are hth
14:25:07 <shachaf> newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall a. (f a -> a) -> a }
14:25:16 <shachaf> data Nu f = forall a. Nu a (a -> f a)
14:39:47 <tswett> ACCORDING TO WIKIPEDIA, TODAY IS AN INTERNATIONAL CAPS LOCK DAY.
14:40:32 <shachaf> every day is an international caps lock day
14:41:00 <tswett> SO, UH, WHAT'S MU SUPPOSED TO BE?
14:42:02 <tswett> LIKE, UH, IT TAKES A FUNCTOR ALGEBRA THINGY AND THEN RETURNS THE UNDERLYING THING.
14:42:39 <oerjan> also it's my birthday hth
14:42:49 <tswett> LIKE, WHY DON'T WE TAKE [] AS AN EXAMPLE. Mu [] IS forall a. ([a] -> a) -> a, RIGHT?
14:42:52 <shachaf> are you a billion years old now
14:43:44 <shachaf> tswett: [] is a complicated example.............
14:44:05 <tswett> ALL RIGHT, HOW ABOUT Maybe?
14:44:27 <tswett> Mu Maybe, THEN, WOULD BE forall a. (Maybe a -> a) -> a.
14:44:42 <tswett> OF COURSE, A (Maybe a -> a) COULD BE PRETTY WEIRD.
14:45:11 <tswett> ANYWAY, I GUESS THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO, IF YOU'RE THIS MU VALUE THING, IS PASS Nothing INTO THAT FUNCTION.
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14:45:26 <shachaf> that's the only thing you can do *at first*
14:45:34 <tswett> THEN YOU'LL GET AN a, WHICH YOU CAN RETURN, OR YOU CAN PUT IT INTO Just AND RETURN THE RESULT...
14:45:37 <shachaf> but after you do that you get an a value
14:45:44 <tswett> OR YOU CAN PUT *THAT* INTO Just AND RETURN THAT RESULT, AND SO ON.
14:46:10 <tswett> EFFECTIVELY THE NATURAL NUMBERS.
14:46:35 <shachaf> exists x. (x, x -> Maybe x)
14:47:50 <shachaf> what can you do with that?
14:48:11 <tswett> YEAH, THAT LOOKS LIKE THE NATURAL NUMBERS AS WELL. TAKE THE x, PASS IT INTO THAT FUNCTION, EITHER YOU GET Nothing OR YOU GET Just SOMETHING.
14:48:27 <shachaf> or............................................you never get Nothing!!
14:48:27 <tswett> IF IT'S THE LATTER, YOU CAN PUT IT INTO THE FUNCTION AGAIN, MAYBE YOU'LL GET Nothing THIS TIME, MAYBE YOU'LL GET Just AGAIN...
14:48:46 <tswett> RIGHT. IT'S THE-NATURAL-NUMBERS-PLUS-INFINITY.
14:48:52 <tswett> THE CO-NATURAL NUMBERS, AMIRITE?
14:49:07 <tswett> SINCE, LIKE, ISN'T THIS EFFECTIVELY A COINDUCTIVE DATA TYPE?
14:49:39 <shachaf> so now write a function to turn Mu into Nu
14:49:41 <tswett> WHAT ABOUT MU, CAN THAT ALSO BE INFINITY?
14:49:52 <shachaf> in haskell it can.....since haskell is ""confused"""
14:50:34 <tswett> HM. TO ME IT ALMOST KIND OF SEEMS LIKE A COINCIDENCE THAT THOSE THINGS ARE THE SAME THING.
14:51:47 <tswett> MU IS A FUNCTION TAKING THE ALGEBRA THINGY AND PLAYING WITH IT AND RETURNING THE ONE WHATEVER THING.
14:52:10 <tswett> WHEREAS NU IS JUST THE PART THAT GOES IN BETWEEN OR WHATEVER.
14:52:37 <oerjan> shachaf: elliott: thanks
14:53:57 <elliott> oerjan: in return you can outlaw international caps lock day in the channel
14:54:59 <tswett> ONE THING THAT THE MU COULD BE, I GUESS, IS \f -> f . Just . f . Just . f . Just . f . Just . f $ Nothing, AYE?
14:55:22 <shachaf> tswett: International Caps Lock Day has been outlawed in #esoteric
14:55:33 <shachaf> Now it's time For international shubshub Day.
14:56:06 <shachaf> you know, we Never Figured it out
14:56:26 <tswett> Is It All Right If I Just Capitalize Every Word?
14:56:46 <tswett> I dunnO, I don'T thinK thaT woulD bE thE besT ideA pragmaticallY speakinG.
14:57:00 <tswett> Anyway, what could the Nu be.
14:57:27 <shachaf> Anyway, yes, sure, That's a Good Mu value.
14:57:33 <shachaf> :t \f -> f . Just . f . Just . f . Just . f . Just . f $ Nothing
14:57:49 <tswett> Going backwards... taking a layer off each time... why would you go backwards, why would that be the same thing...
14:58:04 <tswett> Is it really possible to convert Mu into Nu or is this just an Elaborate practical joke...
14:58:11 <shachaf> > (\f -> f . Just . f . Just . f . Just . f . Just . f $ Nothing) (maybe 0 (+1))
14:58:31 <shachaf> It's really Possible to do it.
14:59:20 <tswett> I mean, if you have the fixed Point of a Type, like, a Data Constructor representing that, then it seems like you can do it.
14:59:41 <tswett> Like, define data Fix f = F (f (F f)).
14:59:45 <shachaf> well You can Make Whatever data Constructors you Want
15:00:01 <tswett> Then, uh, the Nu is...
15:00:03 <shachaf> (but Say No To negative Recursion)
15:00:32 <elliott> that shachaf is always so positive all the time.
15:00:35 <tswett> (F . Just . F . Just . F . Just . F . Just . F $ Nothing, \(F x) -> x)?
15:01:07 <tswett> In which Case it seems pretty clear how to convert the Mu into the Nu. Just pass F in and then the other Thing is always that Thing.
15:01:21 <tswett> (themu F, \(F x) -> x)
15:01:34 <tswett> If my Syntax is correct; I'm not sure you can put the Lambda Symbol directly after a Comma like that.
15:02:00 <shachaf> The syntax Is Correct but haskell Doesn't Have first-Class Existentials
15:02:11 <shachaf> So You Would instead make a Data Constructor In ghc
15:02:23 <shachaf> data Nu f = forall a. Nu a (a -> f a)
15:03:10 <tswett> Right, it's \themu -> Nu (themu F) (\(F x) -> x).
15:03:29 <tswett> So right. A Mu is effectively a forall a. (f a -> a) -> a, aye?
15:04:07 <shachaf> newtype Fix f = Fix { unFix :: f (Fix f) }
15:04:18 <shachaf> unFix :: Fix f -> f (Fix f)
15:04:24 <tswett> SO YOU'VE GOT THIS THING, YOU DOn't know what it is, and you have to, like, effectively use it to guide your Behavior.
15:05:06 <tswett> The first Argument to the Nu Constructor.
15:05:14 <shachaf> also If you Want A Bonus exercise try Turning Nu Into Mu
15:05:19 <HackEgo> 750) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
15:05:37 <tswett> And then the other Thing is, of course, the second Argument to the Nu Constructor.
15:06:13 <tswett> shachaf: happy Birthday to you. Happy Birthday to you. It is likely that quoting any more of the Song would be an Infringement of Copyright.
15:06:30 <shachaf> i Heard That was Just A rumour
15:06:47 <shachaf> Oops That was improper Grammer
15:07:30 <nooodl> is shubshub the batch script esolang guy
15:07:37 <tswett> I guess it's essentially, like, you have an a, and an (a -> f a), and an (f b -> b), and you have to appropriately produce a b.
15:08:03 <tswett> Oh, and you know that the f is Maybe, of Course.
15:08:59 <nooodl> i googled his name and found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOUKwJYhdss wow
15:10:16 <shachaf> esoteric/2012-04-28.txt:10:24:19: <shubshub> I Just added capital lettering to !Py!Batch
15:10:26 <tswett> So, keep operating on the a until you've gotten rid of all of the, like, a, and then do the same thing in reverse.
15:11:36 <tswett> So the first Thing we need is (a -> (a -> Maybe a) -> Fix Maybe).
15:11:56 <tswett> And that's just, uh, what should I call it. How about shake.
15:13:18 <tswett> Lemme interchange the arguments, so it's ((a -> Maybe a) -> a -> Fix Maybe).
15:13:24 <tswett> shake f x = fmap (shake f) (f x)?
15:13:38 <tswett> No, we need more constructors.
15:13:48 <tswett> shake f x = Fix (fmap (shake f) (f x))?
15:14:31 <tswett> Looks right as far as I can tell.
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15:14:53 <tswett> Then you just need to do the reverse. Let's call that one scrunch.
15:15:46 <tswett> With a Type along the Lines of (Fix Maybe -> (Maybe b -> b) -> b). Yeah, that sounds easy.
15:16:24 <tswett> I think we should interchange the Arguments again. ((Maybe b -> b) -> Fix Maybe -> b).
15:16:49 <shachaf> by the way you can do hylo :: Functor f => (f b -> b) -> (a -> f a) -> (a -> b) if you prefer
15:17:38 <shachaf> (Which is the same thing, of course.)
15:18:33 <tswett> scrunch f t = f (fmap (scrunch f) (unFix t))
15:18:54 <tswett> So you just need to shake and then scrunch.
15:23:17 <Koen_> he wanted to shake my hand but then I scrunched his fingers so hard there was blood everywhere
15:23:47 <tswett> The metaphor is... a T-shirt or something.
15:23:57 <tswett> If you want to turn a T-shirt into a hockey puck, what do you do?
15:24:18 <tswett> All right, I mUST LEAVE YOU GUYS FOR THE TIME BEING.
15:56:12 <oerjan> itt t-shirts, hockey pucks and burritos
15:57:29 <shachaf> kmc: your job is to find the best place in sf for a vegetarian burrito btw
16:10:24 <oerjan> it sounds like the kid in the apartment above has recently acquired a marble or something similar.
16:10:47 <oerjan> so, after all, that is what will finally be the end of me.
16:11:37 <oerjan> it has to be the ones making the noise, Phantom_Hoover
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18:18:37 <kmc> shachaf is no-meat-food-seeky
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19:07:30 <ion> I had to stop being vegetarian recently. I feel bad about it, but i have to prioritize my health over the wellbeing of production animals. As a health issue i have (had for years before i even began vegetarianism) i have real trouble getting things done. Due to that i just didn’t manage to take care of the increased effort to get all the nutrition i need.
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20:05:37 <Koen_> being vegetarian was fun
20:05:43 <Koen_> but meat is SO GOOD
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20:29:47 <ion> I haven’t really got used to the taste of meat yet, it still feels subjectively disgusting. But that’s just a matter of getting used to it again. OTOH, i don’t think the bad conscience is going to go away. :-P
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20:38:09 <Bike> just start with something easy, like drinking chilled pig blood, and then slowly move up to hunting squirrels and such
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20:55:48 <Koen_> ion: wait... are you saying you've NEVER eaten meat before?
20:57:17 <ion> koen: I have.
20:57:44 <ion> I stopped around 13 years ago.
20:59:43 <Koen_> oh okay that's a long time
21:02:50 <ion> Enough for the desire to turn to disgust.
21:22:43 <tswett> Do the Component Object Model and the Common Language Infrastructure have anything to do with each other?
21:26:51 <coppro> i would like to purchase an internet
21:26:55 <coppro> do you have any available?
21:27:20 <tswett> I don't have any internets here at the moment, but I could create one given... let's say about three to six months.
21:28:28 <coppro> unfortunately, that timeline is unacceptable to me
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22:05:16 <oerjan> i suggest going for an intern e.t. instead hth
22:21:44 <FreeFull> What does hth stand for again?
22:22:04 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
22:27:34 <kmc> shachaf: i will let you know
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23:17:57 <tswett> coppro: I recommend taking your business elsewhere, hth.
23:18:05 <tswett> elliott: I'm so glad you're not a baby any more.
23:20:14 <tswett> Nope. He's two years old now.
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23:50:20 <lambdabot> DavidJacobs says: Code is like poetry; most of it shouldn't have been written.
23:51:01 <oerjan> (belatedly reading HWN)
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00:45:26 <Sgeo> halp did i broke agora
00:45:35 <kmc> shachaf: Did you figure out if you can make a Rust "object" (the existential typeclass thingy) with more than one trait?
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00:46:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: just one day before 20th anniversary? some irony.
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00:59:43 <shachaf> I didn't actually try the object thing until just now.
01:05:03 <shachaf> It doesn't look like it's possible...
01:08:23 <shachaf> (But maybe #rust would know.)
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01:12:14 <shachaf> kmc: they're talking about traits-as-object-things right now
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03:11:42 <tswett> Agora's pretty hard to break, in my experience.
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03:19:05 <zzo38> I don't like it that the disk images for the Famicom are all put together into one file; it would be more useful to put each side of each disk as a separate file, isn't it?
03:19:42 <shachaf> zzo38: Seems less convenient.
03:23:08 <zzo38> Perhaps, but that could still be solved by adding a user-defined macro to select one.
03:23:28 <Sgeo> tswett, public forum blah blah
03:23:42 <Sgeo> Also, probably declaring a nomic as Hostile should have some actual effect
03:24:32 <tswett> Like aiming Agora's nuclear arsenal at it.
03:25:48 <Sgeo> I think maybe there should be a class of nomics called "legitimate nomics", which are nomics that have a recognition other than Unknown or Hostile; rules should generally speak of legitimate nomics, rather than nomics in general
03:26:05 <Sgeo> Should be perfectly legal to claim to be the ambassador to a hostile nomic
03:26:12 <Sgeo> *Agoran ambassador
03:26:39 <tswett> If Agora had mechanisms for trading with other nomics, then declaring the nomic as Hostile could shut them off.
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03:28:30 <tswett> "At any given time, every foreign nomic is Unembargoed, Voluntarily Embargoed (default), or Compulsorily Embargoed. A foreign nomic may switch its embargo status between Unembargoed and Voluntarily Embargoed at any time."
03:29:06 <tswett> Which, of course, isn't how Agora would phrase that at all.
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03:30:47 <tswett> "Embargo Status is a foreign nomic switch, tracked by the Ambassador-at-Large, with values Unembargoed, Voluntarily Embargoed (default), and Compulsorily Embargoed. A foreign nomic CAN switch its embargo status between Unembargoed and Voluntarily Embargoed by announcement."
03:31:23 <tswett> "Each Foreign Nomic has an Embargo Status, tracked in the GNDT, ..."
03:33:06 <Sgeo> "When this happens, the Sensei SHOULD announce who
03:33:06 <Sgeo> the winner was."
03:33:11 <Sgeo> Why is that SHOULD and not SHALL?
03:34:14 <Bike_> maybe i should found #Esotericists Against Weird Nerd Shit
03:37:09 <Sgeo> Bike_, instead of that, you could try to start a war against Agora
03:37:23 <Bike_> i don't think you get the point of the Society sir
03:37:38 <Sgeo> (I don't think any nomics that waged war against Agora survived much longer)
03:37:59 <Sgeo> Does AA count as waging war? AA will probably live forever technically
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07:22:40 <coppro> we need a haskell library where (!) is a disambiguation operator of some kind
07:22:58 <coppro> so that the fanfiction notation of fic!character or trait!character is valid
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07:58:02 <kmc> shachaf: #rust on irc.mozilla.org?
08:05:30 <kmc> shachaf: should I make Rust bindings for udis86? sounds fun imo
08:07:16 <shachaf> it'll become your signature ffi thing
08:08:02 <shachaf> kmc: I was doing some FFIing with ptrace before.
08:16:47 <kmc> how did that go
08:19:14 <shachaf> i remembered how much fun ptrace is
08:19:22 <shachaf> but it worked more or less
08:25:46 <kmc> and what did you think of rust's ffi capabilities
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09:21:17 <shachaf> 02:14 < aatch> but remember that &Trait only started working in last week.
09:23:20 <shachaf> It seems like some things are a lot of work to FFI-bind safely.
09:23:49 <shachaf> Rust tries to keep track of some things that Haskell doesn't, like array size sometimes and the things you were mentioning.
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09:53:55 <shachaf> kmc: remember when i was really terrible
09:54:06 <shachaf> i don't but i looked at my old #haskell logs :'(
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10:00:16 <kmc> i don't remember either
10:00:19 <kmc> i could look but maybe i won't
10:00:31 <shachaf> haskell/07.06.13:18:17:23 <shachaf> jfredett: (>>=) temporarily extracts the inside of the monad and gives it to your function, but only if your function promises that it'll return something wrapped in that same monad eventually.
10:01:35 <shachaf> to be fair other people had given me that explanation first..........
10:11:27 <augur> i think good examples of how thats not true is would be good to have on the wiki
10:11:42 <augur> something like "why monads arent burritos"
10:12:36 <shachaf> There are many good examples of why it's nonsense.
10:13:22 <augur> i know there are many good examples, but it'd be good to have at hand
10:14:49 <shachaf> I liked Apocalisp's thing:
10:15:01 <shachaf> Okay, what if the monad you're dealing with is, say, a function? How is it going to just give you the value? I imagine the exchange going like this:
10:15:10 <shachaf> You: "Give me the square root!"
10:15:12 <shachaf> Haskell: "The square root of what?"
10:15:17 <shachaf> Haskell: "Dude, I don't have it. You have to give me an argument."
10:21:19 <augur> i think probably a good example is Cont, where general continuations (and not polymorphic ones) definitely cant be said to contain values
10:22:23 <shachaf> Reader, more commonly known as (->)
10:22:42 <augur> ah, yes, thats a good example
10:22:58 <augur> Reader and Cont both can be wedged into a container mold, and still make some amount of sense
10:23:01 <shachaf> of course, Maybe has the same property
10:23:14 <shachaf> id :: Int -> Int does not "contain" an Int in any normal usage of the term
10:23:38 <augur> but you can view it as a value that is parameterized
10:24:02 <augur> i mean, thats much the purpose of Reader, viewing things as values, under some background parameter
10:25:18 <augur> thats very much the benefit of monads, often, is letting you think of m a as just an a, with some funny stuff going on in the background
10:26:41 <augur> a funny way of being an a with funny stuff going on in the background :)
10:27:23 <augur> im really fond of the computation metaphor myself, honestly
10:27:48 <augur> m a is a funny way to compute an a
10:27:55 <augur> [a] is a []-y way to compute an a
10:28:55 <augur> but that does make the container metaphor easier to stomach, i feel.
10:29:46 <augur> the containers are just the computations, not actual boxes
10:29:59 <augur> stretched metaphor, but
10:43:20 <FreeFull> I don't see the point of any metaphors, really
10:43:50 <FreeFull> All you need to understand monads is either return,join,fmap or return,bind
10:44:13 <mnoqy> a monad is like a useful abstraction.have fun
10:44:35 <FreeFull> Where bind or join are where the magic happens
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12:24:06 <elliott> 17:10:23 <oerjan> it sounds like the kid in the apartment above has recently acquired a marble or something similar.
12:24:09 <elliott> 17:10:47 <oerjan> so, after all, that is what will finally be the end of me.
12:24:11 <elliott> 17:10:59 <oerjan> too many marbles.
12:24:15 <elliott> oerjan: it's ok, eventually you'll lose your marbles anyway
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13:55:44 <mnoqy> oerjan: hi i hear youre older now. happy birthy
13:59:35 <oerjan> thank you, although it's over now
13:59:43 <oerjan> (i'm still older though)
14:28:30 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: it's ok, eventually you'll lose your marbles anyway <-- THAT'S THE JOKE. or despair, whatever.
14:31:05 <mnoqy> it can be both if you want
14:47:27 <olsner> it can be both even if you don't want
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15:07:23 <oerjan> <Sgeo> (I don't think any nomics that waged war against Agora survived much longer) <-- i suspect technically no nomics other than agora "survived much longer" in general.
15:08:18 <elliott> technically that died like a decade ago
15:08:38 <oerjan> what is the second oldest nomic these days?
15:10:08 <elliott> oerjan: um, probably blognomic?
15:10:21 <oerjan> > (1179027/86400 - 13)*24
15:10:46 <oerjan> > (14-1179027/86400)*24
15:11:11 <elliott> hm why does blognomic's header have a statement of the principle of extensional set equality in it right now
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15:15:44 <Koen_> elliott: this dynasty's about logic
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15:15:56 <Sgeo> Hmm, if I wanted to get someone into nomic, BlogNomic might be an easier start I guess?
15:17:21 <Koen_> elliott: oerjan: um, probably blognomic? << I think Blognomic was started in 2005... I'm not sure that makes it the oldest
15:17:31 <Koen_> also I don't know if you wanna count the frc
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15:18:16 <oerjan> i don't think of it as an "ordinary" nomic, but of course it's slightly older than agora.
15:19:28 <Sgeo> By Agora's definitions, it is a nomic, right?
15:20:17 <Sgeo> Just a nomic with a slightly odd rule changing mechanism
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15:20:46 <Sgeo> *so ARE canada
15:20:53 <hagb4rd> yay.. esoteric in full colour
15:21:19 <Sgeo> Actually, I guess that other canada is dead
15:21:20 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:34:24 <oerjan> <Bike_> maybe i should found #Esotericists Against Weird Nerd Shit <-- that's like Cannibals Against Eating Meat, right?
15:35:45 * oerjan is reminded about that motor bus latin joke
15:36:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Motor_Bus
15:38:18 <oerjan> Taneb: did you learn that in class? :P
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17:24:05 <Sgeo> Good idea/bad idea? Taking a brand new $650 smartphone into the shower
17:28:05 <oerjan> my mind boggles at how you managed it
17:28:53 <Sgeo> The phone in question is supposed to be somewhat waterproof -- resistant for 30 minutes submerged 1 meter deep
17:29:19 <oerjan> ...are you ircing from the shower.
17:29:27 <Sgeo> No. Although I did consider it.
17:30:07 <Sgeo> The screen needs to be dry to process input properly, which kind of sucks.
17:34:00 <nooodl> i found out my ipad isn't waterproof "the hard way"
17:40:29 <olsner> ... then it's waterproof?
17:41:47 <fizzie> "Hold down the Info button for a few seconds, and the TG-2 becomes a very expensive flashlight." (Waterproof camera review.)
17:42:09 <nooodl> well it wasn't a lot of water, but some of it got in the headphone jack and i had to dry it out
17:42:26 <fizzie> (It can turn the focus illumination led on like that.)
17:56:33 <kmc> Sgeo: Galaxy S4 Active?
17:57:15 <kmc> "Samsung has already made a splash with its feature-rich smartphone the Galaxy S4. Now it is hoping to generate enthusiasm for a Galaxy S4 variant that can survive one, in most circumstances."
17:57:19 <kmc> that is... strained
17:59:08 <kmc> maybe I'm just too stupid at this moment to connect pronouns
17:59:55 <kmc> shachaf: I realized that the operational difference between composition and inheritance is less significant in C++, where you can have members of object (not reference-to-object) type
18:00:08 <kmc> also is there a good concise term fro "object (not reference-to-object) type"
18:00:56 <Sgeo> I'm honestly more interested to know if it's drop-proof... it hasn't particularly been advertised as such, but that's why I bought it
18:04:16 <zzo38> Some people argue about whether MAME/MESS is free software and open source.
18:06:46 <elliott> kmc: maybe "object value type"
18:08:40 <elliott> can't get shorter than what you said without getting ambiguous I think
18:20:51 <elliott> "object value type" was already ambiguous though
18:22:53 <kmc> also I don't know how e.g. JVMs lay out subclasses; maybe they do have pointers to superclass objects
18:23:06 <kmc> but I doubt it because you should never need virtual inheritance without MI
18:41:08 <zzo38> A ""object (not reference-to-object) type" in C++ is a structure type, isn't it?
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18:42:41 <kmc> you could call it that
18:42:58 <kmc> but someone might think you mean POD structures by that
18:47:10 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_old_data_structure
18:48:42 <Fiora> is POD like, a language-independent term for 'struct'?
18:48:54 <Bike> i thought it was a c++ term of art
18:51:53 <elliott> Fiora: it stands for "plain old data" but I think mainly C++ people use it? maybe java people too and I think they use it to mean something else
18:52:04 <kmc> yeah I don't think it has a consistent cross-language meaning
18:53:13 <kmc> note that a C++ POD can have non-virtual methods
18:54:04 <hagb4rd> there is also POJO.. which is used by java programmers quite often.. (see also POCO for c..same meaning)
18:54:16 <Bike> this doesn't sound all that plain!
18:54:25 <kmc> because those are sort of just ordinary functions that take an implicit first argument
18:56:02 <Bike> so does anyone understand the stone-weierstrass theorem because it seems real cool
18:56:27 <kmc> plain old c object?
18:56:59 <Bike> no it doesn't!
18:57:03 <hagb4rd> yea, but reading further the term seems to be used more in the c# community
18:57:20 <Bike> literally no numbers the relevant wikipedia article section!!
18:57:29 <Bike> numbers suck, imo.
19:00:13 <Bike> what kinda fucked up analysis you doin son
19:00:58 <mnoqy> analysis is building a tower on some crazy ol axioms
19:18:29 <tswett> Real analysis sucks; complex analysis is the way to go.
19:18:34 <tswett> One milliatyllion is 10^2^1002.
19:18:46 <tswett> Preferably it should be handled algebraically, because who likes doing anything analytically?
19:20:13 <tswett> Differential algebras rule, man.
19:21:17 <Taneb> I'm just as bored now as I was yesterday when my router was bust
19:21:33 <tswett> But I don't *actually* know how to do complex analysis purely algebraically.
19:21:45 <Taneb> Very early yesterday morning, someone mistook me for, and I quote, "that guy who invented Facebok"
19:22:48 <Taneb> For reference, I bear no resemblance to Mark Zuckerberg whatsoever
19:24:33 <tswett> Let's see. If f is a holomorphic function, does the differential equation dy/dx = f(x) necessarily have solutions in neighborhoods of the origin?
19:25:22 <tswett> Well... yes. Integrate both sides. Boom.
19:25:39 <tswett> Does every holomorphic function have an integral which is also holomorphic? You'd hope so.
19:26:00 <tswett> Does it make sense to speak of a holomorphic function C x C -> C?
19:28:05 <Taneb> A bunch of people said I looked like James Bond
19:28:14 <Taneb> But that made more sense because I was wearing a dinner suit
19:28:25 <Taneb> And am tall with dark hair
19:28:28 <tswett> I don't think there's such a thing as "looking like James Bond", is there?
19:28:36 <tswett> Daniel Craig doesn't look like Sean Connery.
19:28:49 <Taneb> One of my friends went into quite some depth about it
19:29:24 <Taneb> He said that while I bore little resemblance to any particular incarnation of James Bond, I looked as though I could have been an incarnation unto myself
19:30:35 <Taneb> On account of my dress and the way I was carrying myself
19:30:39 <Taneb> And also what I was drinking
19:31:04 <Taneb> Heineken, which I am told sponsors the franchise
19:31:25 <tswett> Now, if f is a holomorphic function in x and y (which hopefully means something), does the differential equation dy/dx = f(x,y) necessarily have solutions in neighborhoods of the origin? Pretty sure you can come up with a Taylor series, at least.
19:31:57 <Taneb> For some bizarre reason it was being sold in 2/3 pint glasses
19:32:01 <tswett> Not all power series define functions, though. Here's one that doesn't: f(x) = 0! x^0 + 1! x^1 + 2! x^2 + 3! x^3 + 4! x^4 + ...
19:32:16 <Taneb> `? people whom Taneb is not
19:32:21 <HackEgo> people whom Taneb is not? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:33:04 <Taneb> `run echo "elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond" > wisdom/people\ who\ Taneb\ is\ not
19:33:10 <Taneb> `? people whom Taneb is not
19:33:11 <HackEgo> people whom Taneb is not? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:33:14 <Taneb> `? people who Taneb is not
19:33:16 <HackEgo> people who Taneb is not? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:34:51 <tswett> `? people\ who\ Taneb\ is\ not
19:34:53 <HackEgo> people\ who\ Taneb\ is\ not? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:35:12 <elliott> you have to lowercase that t in the filename, yes
19:35:13 <fizzie> ISTR wisdom looks for lowercase files.
19:35:54 <tswett> `run mv wisdom/people\ who\ Taneb\ is\ not wisdom/people\ who\ taneb\ is\ not
19:36:06 <tswett> `? people who taneb is not
19:36:08 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
19:36:12 <tswett> `? people who Taneb is not
19:36:13 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
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19:40:43 <Koen_> since there are a lot of people whom Taneb is not, I think it would be better if it selected a few at random every time
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20:02:46 <zzo38> I suppose my religious views might be classified as panendeism, although some of my views differ from what is common in any classification.
20:11:50 <zzo38> How do the features of Black-C fit into the stuff about POD structures and so on?
20:11:58 <Taneb> What is it called when f (g(a), a) = g(a) for all a?
20:12:29 <Taneb> For all a in the domain of g
20:12:47 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't know.
20:12:58 <Taneb> It's sort of a fixed point?
20:13:51 <Taneb> I mean something like "g is a fixed curve of f
20:14:10 <zzo38> Well, that is one thing that meets this description, but I think you mean in general, not just one specific function.
20:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> full disclosure, i have no idea what the fuck kind of notation Taneb is using
20:14:44 <elliott> f can be defined for (x, y)s s.t. x is not g(y)
20:14:54 <elliott> for example, for any y that isn't in the domain of g, as Taneb said
20:15:07 <Bike> isn't it just f(g(a), a) = g(a). like. normal math
20:15:07 <elliott> or even if y is in the domain of g and x just happens to be equal to something other than g(y)
20:15:56 <Taneb> When f(a, b) is b^(b^(a *b + 1)) and g(a) = 1/(1-a), for example
20:16:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: aren't you like... studying mathematics. at university
20:16:14 <Bike> ok, so, you don't need g, do you?
20:16:17 <Taneb> (don't ask how I found that example.)
20:16:23 <Bike> you can just say f(b, a) = b for all b in some set.
20:16:30 <Bike> satisfies, but it's not the only possibility.
20:16:31 <elliott> but that doesn't mean other functions don't
20:16:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it does satisfy it
20:16:58 <Bike> f(x,y) = x if x is an integer, otherwise -1
20:17:01 <elliott> for instance f(x) = x has a fixed point but we don't call the property of having a fixed point "being identity" :P
20:17:06 <Taneb> It is not a name for the bunch of things that satisfy it
20:17:39 <Bike> oh, wait, no, a, what am i saying.
20:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i feel like this is probably too conceptually muddy to have a name
20:23:04 <Taneb> It is a pair of functions f and g where g has domain A and codomain B and f has domain (BxA) and codomain B such that for all x in A, f(g(x), x) = g(x)
20:23:09 <Taneb> Did I write that correctly?
20:23:36 <elliott> g's domain can be smaller than A.
20:23:49 <elliott> also your notation is v. verbose
20:23:49 <Bike> so you have g : X -> Y and f : (Y, X') -> Y' where Y isin Y' and X isin X', is what i was thinking of messaging but didn't
20:24:00 <elliott> except "in" is wrong it's subset. but whatever.
20:24:17 <Bike> i don't actually use tex :-(
20:24:34 <elliott> I don't think it's even \isin I just interpreted it informally. it's ok I forgive you
20:25:11 <Bike> anyway and for all x in X, f(g(x),x) = g(x) big whoop
20:25:32 <Bike> maybe there's a name for something a bit generalized. like saying f(g(x),x) = h(x) instead or somethin
20:25:40 <Taneb> btw this all actually has a purpose
20:25:50 <Bike> what the fuck is a purpose
20:25:57 <Taneb> It's a bit like a dolphin
20:26:34 <Taneb> You know, the first in line to the throne of France
20:31:26 <Taneb> Can anyone just suggest a good name for it, then?
20:31:45 <Bike> a "Taneb function"
20:32:23 <Bike> definition: a function satisfying the Taneb condition on the two Taneb spaces, X and Y
20:33:54 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
20:34:10 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules and automatic squirrel feeders
20:34:42 <Taneb> If you believe with all your heart, then maybe they are!
20:34:50 <Bike> (1) is an automatic squirrel feeder like a crow vending machine (2) do squirrels live in Taneb space
20:35:18 <Taneb> Bike, (1) it's more like a seesaw and (2) yes
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22:28:41 <nortti> hint: fungot is not here
22:29:42 <olsner> not here!? how can this be?
22:31:11 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
22:33:28 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 15) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
22:33:58 <olsner> I guess that'll have to suffice then
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22:35:13 <Sgeo> How is it that a headphone jack can be made waterproof (so it doesn't need a cover) but a USB port cannot?
22:35:34 <olsner> fungot: are you waterproof?
22:35:35 <fungot> olsner: fnord iood haha ok safari opened it after about two months time, i'll start posting some of my libraries uses them under plt
22:36:31 <olsner> sleep must not prevent our mission critical bots from functioning
22:45:30 <hagb4rd> this book very funny: http://jbot.de/zwwHC
22:46:41 <olsner> hmm, 350 pages too, which page is the funniest?
22:48:43 <hagb4rd> let's have the letter from bruce howard on 258 :)
22:51:14 <oerjan> <Bike> so does anyone understand the stone-weierstrass theorem because it seems real cool <-- well i used to do so, anyway.
22:51:32 <elliott> back in oerjan's understanding-things days
22:51:42 <Bike> dark days indeed
22:52:15 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm shilling for Samsung every time I mention my phone. How do I make that feeling go away?
22:52:27 <Bike> stop mentioning ur phone
22:52:35 <hagb4rd> but i also love the "evolution of a programmer"..a good snack on 251
22:55:16 <oerjan> <tswett> Does every holomorphic function have an integral which is also holomorphic? You'd hope so. <-- yes, iirc the taylor series have the same radii of convergence around each point
22:55:23 <olsner> Sgeo: or, if you must mention your phone, just stop mentioning the make and model of it
23:02:23 <Bike> "In each case, our code was compiled using GCC version 4.5.1 with either the -O3 flag set or the -O1 flag set, whichever resulted in faster code (except for [...] which performed significantly better when compiled with GCC 4.1.2 using the -O1 flag)" isn't that grand
23:04:38 <Bike> that nsa thing
23:05:20 <Bike> "the simon and speck families of lightweight block ciphers"
23:08:29 <Bike> the cipher is like ten lines of c, i'm kind of curious what differences they could get
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23:39:58 <hagb4rd> in that case it may be worth to check the assembly
23:44:28 <hagb4rd> did you know that decrementing a value in a loop can be significantly faster then incrementing it? some compilers optimize the assembly so it makes no difference.. but without optimization the assembly code is ..yea..just longer (more steps)
23:48:01 <FreeFull> That's because it's easy to check if something is zero
23:48:16 <FreeFull> But to compare two values, you have to subtract and then check if it's zero
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23:52:54 <FreeFull> It adds up over many loop iterations
23:53:18 <FreeFull> Although it probably doesn't matter unless you are really trying to pull out max performance
23:53:38 <FreeFull> By then you might be writing the assembly yourself anyway
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00:25:41 <tswett> I wish dvorakbot were here.
00:25:47 <tswett> He really brightened up this channel.
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00:28:11 <oerjan> dvorakbot: what did you do again?
00:29:10 <tswett> List of dvorakbot's commands: http://pastie.org/8095682
00:29:33 <tswett> Congratulations on being a card.
00:30:23 <tswett> I wonder what card it is!
00:32:56 <olsner> what happens to these cards?
00:33:17 <dvorakbot> KeyError: 3 (file "/Users/tswett/Documents/Hobbies/Programming/Python/phenny/modules/dvorak.py", line 139, in where_card)
00:33:32 <tswett> dvorakbot handles all errors gracefully.
00:35:31 <Bike> aha, now i know ur local username!
00:36:15 <tswett> Uh oh. Now you can )(4xx0r4t3 me.
00:39:10 <Bike> >:D, i am so 1337 at that
00:41:50 <oerjan> only you can stop them elliott
00:42:27 <oerjan> or was it forest fires, i'm not sure
00:42:28 <elliott> actually that was directed specifically at bike hth
00:42:48 <olsner> hmm, wasn't it oerjan who could stop forest fires?
00:42:55 <Bike> pretty sure it was oerjan.
00:43:08 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've never tried stopping a forest fire
00:43:34 <olsner> though I'm sure fungot could say that to lots of people if it wanted to
00:43:35 <fungot> olsner: you should do it. thanks for pointing out a pro ( or con). modulo a b)
00:47:58 <tswett> .rof si retcarahc siht tahw erus toN
00:49:45 <tswett> Hm. "The right-to-left override, for example, can be used to force a part number made of mixed English, digits and Hebrew letters to be written from right to left."
00:53:45 <hagb4rd> would you mind to reactivate bike elliott?
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00:56:31 <fungot> tswett: the best explanation of what he meant
00:56:32 <fungot> dvorakbot: but if i start generating absurd amounts of money from my sick leave and i have 0.8.6 running on this computer
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00:56:56 <tswett> This channel has a lot of bots.
00:57:47 <hagb4rd> tswett: can you also define rules? or are they defined someway?
00:58:02 <tswett> Nope, the rules are just whatever you've previously agreed on.
00:58:43 <tswett> The bot is unfinished, but it's also usable. It can do almost everything DvorakMUSH, I think it was, can do.
00:59:49 <hagb4rd> ahh.. i think i know that one
01:05:15 <hagb4rd> tswett: is dvorak a popular game where in the US?
01:05:35 <tswett> Nope, I think it's completely obscure worldwide.
01:06:16 <hagb4rd> oh if it's the game i know it's spoken "durak" and means "fool" in russian
01:06:59 <hagb4rd> and it's quite popular in germany ..so
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01:22:47 * oerjan suddenly recalls a silly norwegian children's song about a many-headed monster remembering his love affair in hawaii
01:25:47 <oerjan> "not available in your country" :/
01:26:26 <oerjan> oh there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Htk_XLPuWs
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01:34:23 <oerjan> turns out that video was recorded in trondheim
01:35:51 <oerjan> elliott: you can come to trondheim but we can never meet there hth
01:35:58 <elliott> oerjan: but what if I bring taneb
01:43:48 <Sgeo> http://distractionware.com/games/flash/vvvvvvproto/
01:44:03 <Sgeo> This music doesn't seem to be in PPPPPP or VVVVVV
01:51:49 <Sgeo> kmc, http://www.souleye.se/adventure has songs that are on VVVVVV 2 but not 1 (I didn't even know there was a 2)
01:53:02 <elliott> is... is there a reason kmc is pinged
01:54:10 <hagb4rd> maybe because he's interested in that stuff
01:55:07 <Sgeo> Because kmc has expressed liking of PPPPPP previously
01:55:25 <elliott> and here i was going with the sgeo is evil hypothesis
01:56:19 <elliott> monoids hth monoids hth monoids
01:57:06 -!- elliott has set topic: The channel for helpful people | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:57:15 <oerjan> > fix ("monoids hth" <>)
01:57:16 <lambdabot> "monoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
01:57:46 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
01:58:58 <nooodl> `learn hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
01:59:49 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/hthmonoid{s,} # hth
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02:00:30 <elliott> i think this hth and monoids thing is getting a little out of hand.
02:01:09 <Bike> i think it's gotten a lot out of hand & has gone from being kind of ««««ironically»»»» silly to just silly & also poop dumb
02:02:18 <elliott> Bike: going further than is reasonable until it starts being funny again is arguably the whole idea here!!
02:02:33 <Bike> that has never worked ever
02:02:49 <elliott> maybe you just haven't tried enough, hth
02:09:02 <hagb4rd> seriously? it's not as bad as it sounds..and maybe a direct consequence of that long-year-relationships grown in this channel.. but there's a lot of "insider" jokes or references made here.. they're cool sure, but may in worst case (which is not a tragedy) keep newcomers out..
02:09:37 <hagb4rd> but it's really not a problem
02:10:13 <hagb4rd> most newbie are welcomed and always given a chance here
02:13:08 <hagb4rd> on the other hand that is what makes a good community..development and preservation of culture
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02:17:01 <hagb4rd> shit i don't have any skin.. hope you can make any sense of this
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02:17:33 <oerjan> ...not the last line, no
02:18:00 <oerjan> "shit i don't have any skin"
02:18:22 <elliott> oerjan don't be so intolerant, if we can have bicycles we can have horrific jumbles of flesh and bone
02:18:37 <Bike> i don't have a lymphatic system :)
02:18:55 <elliott> I don't have an emphatic system
02:19:30 <elliott> that one didn't really work so well :(
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02:20:43 <oerjan> bike jokes are tired and flat
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02:30:16 <Sgeo> AOL is a commonly recognized root CA?
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03:27:47 <hagb4rd> and now for something completely different
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06:00:38 <zzo38> Quoting from a message on Chess Variants: "What is the interface of Chess and reality? Is Chess the unreal? Or the other way around. ... If Chess existed first, why not invent a Reality to conform to it? What reality would that be? ..."
06:00:56 <Bike> chesseality, imo.
06:02:20 <zzo38> I did write a reply. My own point of view is that mathematics is the real reality.
06:06:13 <HackEgo> Thanks, reality. Theality.
06:06:51 <elliott> fizzie: a truce has been established. I am now neutral on speech recognition
06:08:02 <elliott> ok, I still hate it a little.
06:08:47 <Bike> why would you give up your non-biology-related principles!
06:09:06 <elliott> if you think about it speech recognition = biology.
06:09:40 <zzo38> Can a game be defined with sequent calculus in a symmetric way? I have been able to define the subtraction game although the rules aren't symmetric for each player; the first player has to select a rule to follow (if the proof is working from bottom to top), while the second player selects which sequent above the line will be the next state.
06:09:55 <Bike> but the only similar thing between them is that you hate them! and that' snot even true any mroe! NOTHING IS REAL ELLIOTT
06:10:29 <elliott> also, speech recognition = humans = biology
06:11:08 <zzo38> No! They are related in this way, but it is different kind of things.
06:13:13 <zzo38> If there is a single sequent above and a single below the line, then you can define single-player games, such as sokoban. The axiom schema is positions with one player, any number of empty spaces, any number of crates-on-targets, and nothing else.
06:14:17 <zzo38> Therefore, any solvable game is a theorem of this system.
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06:15:49 <zzo38> Can you make anything similar, or make a better two-player game with this?
06:17:21 <Bike> elliott: zzo38's right here, man. it is different kind of things!
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06:28:37 <zzo38> I have another idea about sequent calculus. Define a "macro" to mean following many rules, in a polymorphic way (but not necessarily as polymorphic as the original rules), and put together to form a single admissible rule. Therefore, a "theorem" is really a "macro" with nothing above the line. Isn't it?
06:47:54 <shachaf> kmc: least and greatest fixed points are so much imo
06:48:13 <shachaf> you should, like, learn about them and stuff
06:49:10 <Taneb> I need to write a blog post/essay/talk relating Taneb-style fixed curves to control-passing-style
06:54:18 <zzo38> Taneb: What are those things?
06:54:44 <Taneb> A pair of functions f and g such that f(g(x), x) = g(x)
07:00:09 <hagb4rd> no, it's absolutely somethin different
07:03:29 <Taneb> Bugger, I've made a stupid mistake
07:03:55 <Taneb> Okay, this has totally failed
07:04:25 <shachaf> Taneb: maybe you can answer my questions about fixed points instead then...
07:05:24 <Bike> i like banach's fixed points. they're p. good.
07:06:26 <shachaf> do you like Knaster-Tarski theorem....
07:06:31 <Taneb> I thought I was onto something deep
07:06:43 <Taneb> But I made the mistake of saying the xth root of x was 1
07:06:47 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fixed-point_theorems
07:06:47 <Bike> tarski's fixed points are also p. good
07:07:20 <Bike> have you seen the stuff about assigning truth values to weirdass sentences based on tarski's fixed points
07:07:23 <Bike> pretty cool imo
07:07:51 <shachaf> no but i heard about "definedness analysis and liveness analysis" or something
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07:08:08 <Taneb> It approaches 1 as x approaches infinity!
07:08:10 <zzo38> What does it mean to "assign truth values to weirdass sentences based on tarski's fixed points"?
07:08:11 <Taneb> This could be useful!
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07:08:44 * Bike dives into pile of pdfs
07:09:37 <elliott> Bike: is that like the logic equivalent of zeta regularisation
07:10:11 <Taneb> No, I still can't make that assumption
07:10:40 <Bike> Taneb: also numbers have, like, more than one root.
07:11:26 <Bike> ugh where the hell is this paper. it was good
07:12:28 <Bike> and no it's not like zeta regularization very much
07:12:56 <shachaf> have you informed tarski that lattice theory is a waste of time b. you should really be doing category theory instead
07:13:20 <elliott> Bike: well I mean, in spirit.
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07:13:54 <Bike> wow tarski's paper has about 2400 cites.
07:14:28 <Bike> http://www.springerlink.com/index/H880Q5G6M9661313.pdf here, something about "categories" that cites it. ur welcome.
07:16:58 <Bike> ok found it http://comet.lehman.cuny.edu/fitting/bookspapers/pdf/papers/TruthFalse.pdf
07:17:45 <Bike> it involves things being true and false because, like, lol.
07:18:32 <Bike> also it's actually kripke's not tarski's?? so you can tell him yourself shachaf.
07:20:41 <Bike> i knew taneb's thing looked familiar. it's like an IVP where f = f', which is dumb but oh well
07:21:15 <Bike> or like a differential equation rather.
07:25:06 <Taneb> Maybe the truth behind Assassin's Creed is that a logic with the axiom "forall x. x is false" is inconsistent
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07:25:35 <tswett> comp_Monoid_Elements_is_assoc : forall x y z, multiply_Monoid_Elements x (multiply_Monoid_Elements y z) = multiply_Monoid_Elements (multiply_Monoid_Elements x y) z
07:25:41 <tswett> I'm thinking there might be a way of making that shorter.
07:26:31 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, unless "forall" and "is false" is sufficiently restrictive, then yes it probably is inconsistent.
07:27:22 <tswett> What does x range over, there?
07:27:27 <tswett> If its domain is empty, then that axiom is true.
07:27:37 <Bike> i bet you couldn't find an x such that ¬x is true!!
07:28:00 <tswett> Now, a logic with the axiom "not P" for all formulas P would definitely be inconsistent.
07:28:29 <Taneb> tswett, the joke is, that when this is combined with the principle of explosion, you get "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"
07:28:37 <zzo38> tswett: I don't think that is necessarily inconsistent either if the logic is sufficiently restrictive.
07:28:54 <tswett> Taneb: hm, sounds true.
07:29:13 <tswett> Here, have a picture. http://i.imgur.com/tKns3wi.jpg
07:29:29 <Taneb> Seen it a dozen times at least
07:29:43 <Bike> still good though.
07:29:52 <zzo38> It isn't inconsistent unless all well-formed strings are theorems.
07:30:30 <Taneb> zzo38, what if the axiom itself is in its domain
07:31:21 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, of course it is in its own domain, but I don't think that changes what I said.
07:31:46 <Taneb> Because then it is trivially true (it is an axiom), but also false!
07:33:22 <zzo38> But maybe it isn't necessary "true" or "false" but can be a theorem or nontheorem, since "false" might not necessarily be meaningful in a logic such as this.
07:33:22 <tswett> Taneb: well, feast your eyes on this! http://i.imgur.com/tKns3wi.jpg
07:33:39 <Taneb> tswett, I've seen that at least a baker's dozen times!
07:33:54 <tswett> Yay, you said the thing I was hoping you were going to say.
07:33:55 <Taneb> zzo38, shh it was a bad joke
07:36:56 <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword
07:37:00 <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle
07:37:05 <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
07:45:55 <tswett> All right. So, given an object in a category, its endomorphisms form a monoid.
07:46:03 <tswett> This feels like a natural transformation.
07:47:13 <tswett> Maybe it's just a functor.
07:47:32 <tswett> From the category of categories to the category of monoids.
07:47:49 <tswett> Mm, no, that would mean that it turns every category into a monoid.
07:48:04 <tswett> This one, given a category, turns all of that category's objects into monoids.
07:48:29 <shachaf> Are you just talking about a subcategory with one object?
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08:10:32 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you not want to learn to use a sword while riding a unicycle while blindfolded?
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08:18:17 <itsy> It's the World Egg Throwing Championships today :-)
08:39:00 <shachaf> constructivism, more like destructivism
08:39:07 <shachaf> the joke is that constructivism is bad
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09:02:06 <kmc> `pastelog the joke is
09:02:23 <kmc> `pastelogs the joke is
09:02:54 <kmc> why can't i paste logs
09:02:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14280
09:03:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20487
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09:05:42 <shachaf> did you know that fixed points are the best thing in the world
09:05:59 <kmc> there was a huge party in the middle of the street in the castro
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09:07:23 <kmc> also a huge number of people in dolores park before that
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09:10:55 <shachaf> There's a category F-Fix(C) where an object is (X : C, f : X <-> F X) and an arrow (X, f) -> (Y, g) is an arrow h : X -> Y such that fmap h . f = g . h
09:11:54 <shachaf> so if you have a forgetful functor : F-Fix(C) -> C does it have a left adjoint
09:12:12 <kmc> i'm a forgetful functor
09:12:19 <shachaf> oh i guess not in general because that would be a monad
09:13:04 <shachaf> kmc: is the joke that you left adjoint unsmoked in sf
09:13:23 <shachaf> or maybe that's the opposite of the joke
09:14:00 <shachaf> kmc doesn't like drugz jokes
09:14:03 <elliott> if we reduce kmc to just drugz all the time we'll drive him to drink
09:14:18 <kmc> thats ok i already drink all the time
09:14:36 <kmc> at this particular moment it is i who have reduced myself to drugz
09:14:47 <kmc> you're off the hook for that
09:14:53 <shachaf> how many drugz did you drugz
09:15:06 <kmc> in quantity or in number of different kinds
09:16:34 <elliott> i'm drugz but only metaphorically
09:16:55 <kmc> somebody told me that all things are composed of drugs, math, and cardboard in varying ratio
09:18:40 <shachaf> elliott: driving someone to drink is good
09:18:52 <shachaf> otherwise they might drink and drive
09:30:11 <fizzie> There's a new series of PSAs on avoiding drinking and driving going on on a local TV station, they're very cute.
09:30:34 <fizzie> There's a drinking bird and a drinking fish.
09:30:47 <elliott> kmc: should I stop making kmc drugz jokes
09:34:16 <shachaf> if kmc minds all these tasteless kmc drugz jokes i'll stop making them too
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09:40:30 <elliott> can't promise I'll stop making them but I might be able to install some kind of weekly quota
09:40:59 <shachaf> should i refrain from bugging you about fixed points like i've been bugging everyone else
09:41:08 <shachaf> btw fixed points are p. great
10:01:30 <elliott> kmc: look how great we are re: faq
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12:16:40 <FreeFull> shachaf: What is your fixed point?
12:17:37 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = \x -> (fix x shachaf,shachaf) in fix shachaf
12:17:38 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
12:17:47 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = \x -> (shachaf x,shachaf) in fix shachaf
12:17:48 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = (t1, t2)Occurs check...
12:21:33 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = fix in fix shachaf
12:21:34 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
12:21:42 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = fix shachaf in fix shachaf
12:21:43 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
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14:31:30 <Taneb> Is the sequence of the even naturals computable by a push down automaton
14:35:26 <oerjan> how does a push down automaton compute naturals?
14:36:18 <Taneb> That is a question
14:36:42 <oerjan> Taneb: even a finite automaton can _recognize_ them, after all.
14:37:15 <Taneb> Some form of printy dealy?
14:38:12 <oerjan> i suspect they cannot, if printing a number means you have to look deep in the stack
14:38:29 <oerjan> because that obviously erases most of it
14:39:46 <oerjan> hm does a pumping lemma apply to output as well?
14:41:05 <oerjan> shachaf: only that Knaster-Tarski was missing the Fixed-point theorem category. which i've now fixed.
14:41:26 <oerjan> (ok i guess i have learned some fixed-point theorems in my time.)
14:41:47 <shachaf> oerjan: plz add redirect knaster-tarski ----> Knaster–Tarski theorem
14:41:58 <shachaf> i just went to that page and it didn't exist
14:42:21 <oerjan> shachaf: um surely you'd get a direct suggestion. i think that's overdoing it.
14:42:50 <shachaf> have you seen the redirect pages wikipedia has
14:43:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well it shows up if you _search_ for knaster-tarski, anyhow.
14:44:21 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway read http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/fixed+point instead
14:44:36 <shachaf> it's p. good as nlab pages go
14:48:32 * oerjan thinks he may have a cold
14:50:37 <oerjan> hm what does the pumping lemma correspond to directly on pd automata.
14:51:26 <oerjan> hm i think a pd automaton with only output is sort of equivalent to a pd automaton that accepts only one input...
14:51:41 <oerjan> (well, if deterministic.)
14:53:02 <oerjan> in this case the accepted input is infinite, but i doubt that makes much of a difference?
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14:55:27 <oerjan> Taneb: i think that's equivalent to asking if the language of strings of the form "2,4,...,2n" (with your chosen output representation) is context-free.
14:56:29 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure the pumping lemma disallows that.
14:57:22 <oerjan> in fact you don't even need to restrict it to _even_ naturals, it cannot produce the naturals themselves.
15:09:02 <oerjan> <tswett> Now, a logic with the axiom "not P" for all formulas P would definitely be inconsistent. <-- hm is intuitionistic logic inconsistent with that?
15:10:21 <oerjan> if you cannot deduce P from not (not P), then it's no longer _obvious_ that you can get an inconsistency from that...
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15:11:05 <tswett> If a : not (not P) and b : not P, then a b : False.
15:12:14 <oerjan> you need to disallow False -> P somehow.
15:14:20 <tswett> Disallow ex falso quodlibet?
15:15:24 <oerjan> isn't that what paraconsistent logics do, or maybe they just don't allow you to deduce false
15:15:44 <tswett> I think both are options.
15:16:01 <tswett> But I think it's more common for (P and not P) not to imply False.
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15:17:24 <oerjan> because if you wanted to keep the intuitionistic definition of not P = P -> False, the other option would seem better
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15:31:07 <oerjan> holy shit my electric razor short circuited
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15:56:54 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
15:57:21 <HackEgo> 1065) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
15:57:54 <oerjan> wait wtf did i actually revert
15:57:57 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, not hard
15:57:58 <HackEgo> 1065) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
15:58:09 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:58:13 <Taneb> That is another matter entirely
16:00:30 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
16:01:13 <Bike> has anyone ever called it HackBot
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17:15:55 <Sgeo> My computer's power button is broken
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17:17:56 <oerjan> basically electronics are collapsing all over the globe hth
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18:04:41 <Sgeo> I can't seem to force myself to give myself over to Feedly
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18:06:11 <Bike> is this a sex thing
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18:13:02 <Sgeo> Ok, so power button _sometimes_ works
18:13:10 <Sgeo> Depending on how I jiggle it I think
18:13:36 <Sgeo> Yes, my computer is that physically broken that the power button is somewhat mobile
18:21:25 <olsner> hint: buttons usually move when you press them
18:32:23 <Sgeo> Is there any technical reason it wouldn't be possible to waterproof a USB port?
18:34:31 <olsner> maybe it's because most usb peripherals aren't waterproof, so there wouldn't be much of a point
18:35:07 <Sgeo> There would still be a point though: More room for user error, so if the USB cover is accidentally left open, it's not a big deal
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18:41:47 <Sgeo> Are you talking about the power button or waterproof USB ports?
18:42:10 <Sgeo> With the "what does that ever"
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19:05:43 <Koen__> so I'm watching this espionnage show and they're always like "rendez-vous at the swimming-pool, this way I'll be sure you're not carrying a listening device"
19:06:09 <Koen__> I'm waiting for any one of them to realize they could just enclose it in a plastic bag and tadaaaaa water-proof
19:06:12 <myname> reminds me of the simpsons
19:06:47 <myname> it may be water-proof, but is it anal-proof?
19:07:26 <myname> i believe the main idea is that you don't wear much clothes at the pool
19:07:35 <myname> having a hard time hiding equipment
19:07:42 <myname> besides, well... inside yourself
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19:07:57 <olsner> normal swimming trunks have plenty of space to hide a bug
19:08:24 <Koen__> well he explained it several time as "even if you managed to hide a device in your bathing suit, the water would shortcircuit it"
19:08:58 <Koen__> and although the camera keep wandering around all the women in bikini, the men are wearing large swimming trunks as alsner said
19:09:14 <myname> another question is: if it is water-proof, will it still work?
19:09:20 <olsner> yeah, would a waterproof bug pick up the above-water sound properly?
19:09:35 <myname> can you still record stuff inside a water-proof bag?
19:09:43 <Koen__> well it doesn't have to stay underwater it just has to resist getting wet
19:10:24 <Koen__> and yeah if it's a thin layer of plastic you should be alright
19:11:28 -!- hagb4rd|afk has changed nick to hagb4rd.
19:11:30 <Koen__> oh you're already a spy!
19:12:19 <hagb4rd> btw what the heck are ya talking about5
19:12:37 <olsner> bugs in swimming pools
19:12:42 <hagb4rd> is taneb still not james bondß
19:13:56 <Koen__> hagb4rd: do condoms work with usb ports?
19:14:07 <hagb4rd> shit i was just typing that
19:15:09 <myname> why would you fuck a usb port?
19:16:25 <myname> i mean, it can't be THAT small, can it?
19:18:26 <hagb4rd> what is your favourite esolang sgeo?
19:19:37 <hagb4rd> or koen or myname or whoever reads this
19:20:12 <Koen__> I have to pick a favourite esolang?!
19:20:21 <Sgeo> I don't have a favorite esolang. I do have a favorite esolang-related project: PSOX.
19:20:35 <Sgeo> (Note: PSOX not necessarily actually favorite esolang-related project)
19:20:44 <Koen__> I guess I like those which are very original, like /// or Thue
19:20:56 <Koen__> well "string-replacement" is more accurate than "original"
19:21:06 <olsner> I like the graph one... is that eodermdrome?
19:21:21 <Koen__> I would probably like eoderdrome if I had ever took time to understand it
19:21:51 <hagb4rd> @google site:esoolang.org PSOX
19:21:59 <hagb4rd> @google site:esolang.org PSOX
19:22:08 <Koen__> @google site:esolangs.org PSOX
19:22:16 <olsner> string rewriting is nice because you can find it in the wild so often
19:22:44 <Koen__> why do I have a picture of sunflowers in my head
19:23:22 <Koen__> olsner: is that a joke or do you have examples?
19:24:10 <olsner> e.g. sed (though it's quite overtly doing string rewriting, so I'm not sure it counts), mod_rewrite, sendmail
19:25:42 <Koen__> you and I don't have the same definition of the wild
19:26:12 <Bike> indeed, wild animals hardly ever use sendmail, in favor of SMS
19:27:35 <olsner> in that kind of wild I guess you see cellular automata more (which might actually be the same thing if you think about it right)
19:28:28 <hagb4rd> what was the name of the esolang which interpretes midi files again
19:28:53 <Koen__> there are at least two
19:29:26 <Koen__> but you could make a list with two items
19:29:37 <hagb4rd> oh you're not talking to me
19:29:54 <Bike> like, you know, the musical form.
19:29:59 <hagb4rd> that one is quite embarrassing
19:30:31 <Koen__> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=music
19:30:38 <Koen__> apparently Choon produces music as output
19:31:37 <hagb4rd> and it really sounds not bad
19:33:47 <hagb4rd> i looked up embarrassing and its totally not the expected meaning.. wow
19:34:20 <hagb4rd> plain old awesome languagew
19:43:57 <zzo38> A text adventure game on a thirty-column display seems to be limited.
19:45:26 <hagb4rd> what display has 30 columns?
19:46:10 <zzo38> If you take overscan into account so that the leftmost and rightmost columns are not used, then the Famicom will have only thirty columns available.
19:47:55 <hagb4rd> zzo is programming his washing-machine again
19:49:30 <hagb4rd> maybe it's a chinese text adventure.. they don't neeed much space, also they often write top-down (vertical)?
19:49:33 <zzo38> If a font is used which is good in all uppercase, that can simplify the text decoding.
19:50:34 <zzo38> No, it isn't a Chinese text adventure.
19:51:53 <zzo38> (I don't really think Chinese (or any other language that cannot be written with ZSCII) is really suitable for text adventure games, as far as I can tell.)
19:52:17 <hagb4rd> sry, i somehow missed the kickoff infos
19:52:27 <Bike> zscii is the universal standard of gaming, after all
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19:53:31 <lambdabot> http://inform-fiction.org/zmachine/standards/z1point0/sect03.html
19:53:31 <lambdabot> Title: The Z-Machine Standards Document
19:53:44 <zzo38> Bike: No, not really; this has nothing to do with ZSCII in particular, I just mean that they are what is available in the ZSCII character set, not that it necessarily has to do anything with ZSCII.
19:57:36 <Sgeo> :( is my Esc key seriously broken? ugh
19:59:29 <olsner> Sgeo: yes, I went into your home and broke it
19:59:35 <hagb4rd> is that your phone again sgeo?
20:00:02 <hagb4rd> otherwise remap to ..erm..caps lock ..or scrolllock
20:00:23 <hagb4rd> and get a washable keyboard
20:03:52 <hagb4rd> i promised myself to buy a washable one next time
20:05:01 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:06:36 <zzo38> I almost got "Aimfiz" Z-machine interpreter working, except text styles.
20:06:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
20:13:22 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, no, the laptop I'm using now
20:24:51 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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20:33:22 <ion> wtf http://www.wekkars.com/
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22:03:18 <oerjan> quintopia: does stuff matter?
22:06:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
22:07:03 <quintopia> oerjan: please apply your frying pan to yourself
22:08:33 <tswett> In case you don't have a frying pan handy, here's one you can use: ⊸
22:08:41 <tswett> Unfortunately, it's very small.
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22:24:31 <oerjan> why does it look like a square tdnh